Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 10-28-2000 5:00 P.M. EDT Time Enough For Love #4

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 10-28-2000 5:00 P.M. EDT

Time Enough For Love #4


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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

FraSprea has entered the room.

FraSprea has left the room.

FraSprea has entered the room.

FraSprea: Hello

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: What time is it in Italy Francesco?

FraSprea: Hello! it’s 10:49 PM

AGplusone: Hope you’re enjoying a nice evening. Thanks for the condolences e mail.

AGplusone: Her name of course was Francesca, not “Frances”

FraSprea: I’ve drop by mainly to lurk here, if it’s possible, because I’m not too sure I can keep up with the discussion, I havent’ read TEFL for a long time!

AGplusone: Her father saw to it that the names on the birth certificates were all Italian. Her older brother for example was Eduardo, not “Edward” … that’s absolutely possible, and encouraged.

FraSprea: Oh, well then.

AGplusone: How long have you been reading Heinlein?

FraSprea: Since 1990, more or less (I was 15). I read Life-Line in an Asimov’s anthology… and got hooked by it

AGplusone: It was an interesting ‘first story’ wasn’t it?

FraSprea: Definitely. It still is among my favourites, even though sometime I read that some people consider it quite worse than other short stories by RAH.

AGplusone: Some do. I don’t.

SAcademy has entered the room.

FraSprea: Good evening.

SAcademy: Good afternoon

AGplusone: I think it’s very cleverly written. Hi, Ginny, meet

Francesco Spreafico from Italy

FraSprea: Oops.. I have to remind myself that it’s not evening all over the world right now

AGplusone: Francesco, this is Ginny

SAcademy: Hello, Francxesco

AGplusone: Almost 11 PM in Italy now.

AGplusone: We’re glad you made it this late.

SAcademy: I have company with me. Meet Jim Cunningham

FraSprea: I know, she sent me an e-mail two days ago to tell me about a picture I had talked about on afh. Very pleased to meet you.

AGplusone: Hi, Jim!

FraSprea: Hello

SAcademy: Hi, was that the picture of Heinlein Crater?

AGplusone: Possibly the photo on the back of To Sail and an earlier one?

FraSprea: The earlier one. You wrote you’d taken it at Bonny Doon.

FraSprea: (Forgive my English, it’s not very good)

SAcademy: Oh, I was thinking about the crater photos in Requiem and TMIAHM (jim)

AGplusone: Speaking of photos …. Pixel?

SAcademy: I don’t have one handy–and they take time to scan

ddavitt has entered the room.

SAcademy: Francesco, your English is a lot better than my Italian.

AGplusone: Jim thought he might have one back when we exchanged our copies of Fantasies of RAH by mail.

FraSprea: Thank you.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane, how are you today. Eleanor’s sister behaving?

ddavitt: Hi everyone; just popped in to say hello; I’ve been out all day and I’m exhausted, going to lie down. I’ll try and call in later if I perk up.

AGplusone: Please do.

ddavitt: Yes, no sign yet…

ddavitt: OK, enjoy yourselves!

FraSprea: Hi and see you later then.

ddavitt has left the room.

SAcademy: This is Jim — I do have one, of Pixel in an easy chair, and will scann and forward it to you when I get back home tomorrow.

AGplusone: Be wonderful to have it!

AGplusone: Thank you.

SAcademy: If you don’t get it by Tuesday, yank my chain. (jim)

AGplusone: We’ll probably have a slow meeting today …. but it could surprise us how fast they may drop in.

LibertarianBill has entered the room.

LibertarianBill: Howdy folks!

AGplusone: Hi, Bill, nice to see you.

LibertarianBill: Nice to see ya, Dave.

LibertarianBill: I am sorry to read about your mother …

FraSprea: Hello.

LibertarianBill: Howdy Fra

AGplusone: Bill, thank you, meet Francesco Spreafico, from Italy.

LibertarianBill: LIsten folks .. if anyone here goes by anotehr name in AFH, let me know.

LibertarianBill: Howdy Francesco

FraSprea: Pleased to meet you. I go under my real name on afh (the very few posts I post)

AGplusone: One of Ginny’s friends, Jim Cunningham is here with her today too. Fellow that took care of Pixel when she left California, I believe.

LibertarianBill: What time was the discussion supposed to start?

LibertarianBill: Hello, Jim.

AGplusone: Eight minutes ago … we’re just chatting and waiting for the room to fill now.

LibertarianBill: I may not have TOO much to add to the discussion. I haven’t had much time for reading.

LibertarianBill: I work full time and part time and I am going back to school.

AGplusone: What are you taking now, Bill?

LibertarianBill: Good. I did read the last few pages of Podkayne of Mars today … it has a nice comment fromt he grand father about how a wife should stay home and raise the kids. That should get some discussion going. πŸ˜‰

SAcademy: Hi, and no, I’m not the guy who took care of Pixel. My wife and I are just friends who live in Tennessee, and we and a friend came down for the weekend. I also did the frontispiece for TMIAHM & Requiem

LibertarianBill: I am taking courses in computer networking.

AGplusone: Okay, I get people confused sometimes …

LibertarianBill: Pixel is a good name for a cat. I recall there is someone in AFH who named a cat “Jpeg” …

SAcademy: Also, Ginny and I are switching off at the keyboard, both using the SAcademy moniker, and that might be confusing (jim)

AGplusone: “Frontispiece” means the cover on the jacket? Looking at my hardbound copy now …

LibertarianBill: Well, that would do it …

LibertarianBill: AGplusone: What crater is that, if actual?

SAcademy: It is about 3 or 4 pages into the book, the 45 mile wide crater on Mars that was named after Robert (jim)

LibertarianBill: Oh, that is a cool photo. I was going to reproduce it somehow on my Heinlein webpage, but it would take up too much space.

LibertarianBill: … after I got permission of course ….

LibertarianBill: Wouldn’t want to violate any copyrights. πŸ˜‰

SAcademy: I think my computer version took up about 6 megabytes, but I lost it in a computer crash after I had converted it to an 8×10 photograph. Have been thinking about regenerating it again. (jim)

LibertarianBill: When people ask me advice on scanning photos, I tell them use no more than 200 by 200 resolution. Any more is wasted. It makes no difference in appearance on your monitor or on your printer. Of course, a version reproduced in a BOOK would have to be higher.

AGplusone: So it I understand correctly, what I’d assumed was a lunar crater is the one on Mars named after RAH?

FraSprea: But you’re talking about the one on the cover, or maybe the hardback edition of Requiem has pictures inside too? (I only have the paperback)

AGplusone: I’ve the mass market paperback and the hardback (and my hardback has no interior pictures or photos) …

LibertarianBill: You I always thought it was a lunar crater too, but I guess that doesn’t make sense. All the known geological formations on the Moon would have been named long before anyone would have thought to honor him in such a way.

LibertarianBill: My paperback had two versions: One glossy and one on standard pulp paper.

FraSprea: So that’s the cover… I’d thought it was a lunar crater too

SAcademy: Both books have been reissued with the photo in both hard and soft cover. It took several efforts to get the credits right. The original raw data was from a NASA data file taken from a different perspective. The only restriction on its use is that NASA is supposed to be acknowledged as the original data source. (jim)

LibertarianBill: Well, the cover shows a picture of the lunar landscape …

AGplusone: Probably because of the photo of the Earth inside the “O” on Robert.

AGplusone: I see …. okay, I need another edition then.

LibertarianBill: That is a great design.

FraSprea: Oh, that’s why… I need another edition too.

LibertarianBill: Is it hard to get Heinlein novels in Italy?

FraSprea: Some are hard to find because have been out of print for years, other are very easy.

LibertarianBill: I would imagine some of the expressions Heinlein used would not translate very well.

FraSprea: Of course not, that’s why I always look for original editions too.

SAcademy: The crater is located at approximately 243 degrees west and about 63-64 degrees south, southeast of Hellas Planita (jim)

LibertarianBill: BTW: I finally had the pleasure of reading “Assignment in Eternity” last week. That anthology had somehow escaped me for years.

LibertarianBill: Jim, perhaps humans will set foot on that territory sometime soon.

AGplusone: There’s a combination sci-fi military fiction novel I like in which Marines make a forced march toward the Heinlein crater.

LibertarianBill: Really, what is the name?

AGplusone: Written by a fellow who calls himself “Ian Douglas” Semper Mars ISBN0-380-78828-4. Book one of a trilogy

AGplusone: They create something called “Heinlein Station” when they arrive.

LibertarianBill: Ah … I have yet to even begin delving into the “Red Mars” trilogy yet. It is next on my list, right after I finish Turtledove’s “Guns of the South” series.

AGplusone: These are better than Kim Robinson’s trilogy

FraSprea: Interesting! I plan to make a section in my site where to list all such quotes in novels, like the spaceship named “Heinlein” in Niven’s “World of Ptavvs” and so on… I’ll include this too

LibertarianBill: Has anyone here ever read P.J. Farmer’s “Riverworld” series?

AGplusone: Some of it, Bill, years ago.

FraSprea: Always wanted to (I know Mark Twain is in there), but could never locate all of the novels, so I never even started reading it.

LibertarianBill: I have met Farmer, he lived in the same city as I, and the series is quite good. The premise is that everyone who ever lived on Earth is reborn after their deaths on the banks of this great river.

AGplusone: I remember that …

LibertarianBill: The characters include Mark Twain, Sir. Richard Francis Burton (not the actor, the explorer) and other real people.

AGplusone: Gives Farmer the opportunity to pay a lot of tributes to people he admired …

LibertarianBill: I always thought Heinlein would be a good character and would fit in with the general tone of the book. Lots of action adventure and some swordfighting.

LibertarianBill: David, it also gives him ample opportunity to make fun of people he didn’t admire.

AGplusone: SΓ­, claro!

LibertarianBill: Did you know there was a “real” Cyrano De Bergerac? He was an author and a swordsman.

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Wrote the first science fiction.

AGplusone: arguably … two novels

LibertarianBill: The real Cyrano wrote a novel that had people on the moon!

AGplusone: Yep!

LibertarianBill: Cyrano had two things something on common!

FraSprea: I read that when I was a little kid, I don’t remember it at all

AGplusone: Never read them though … don’t know if translations are available in English.

LibertarianBill: curano and RAH, I mean

LibertarianBill: cyrano.

LibertarianBill: SAcademy: Yes, the Bryan Hooker translation. Very poetic.

SAcademy: In French originally.

AGplusone: I’ve always wondered why Cyrano was choosen as the character Nemisis in Glory Road … his participation in Wars of Religion, perhaps?

SAcademy: I don’t know why. Robrt always liked him, and so did I.

AGplusone: I did too.

AGplusone: Just wondered …

AGplusone: seemed a terrible waste of great art to have him spend his life in those wars

AGplusone: Even though they involved nationalism as well …

SAcademy: Those were the times when wars went on. How about your time in the Army?

LibertarianBill: Many great men have wasted their lives in wars that made little sense except to the politicians who started them.

AGplusone: Agreed.

AGplusone: He had to live in his times.

AGplusone: And probably had the same grumbles Evelyn Cyril (“Oscar”) had …

Dehede011 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I’d love to be able to read those two stories he wrote …

SAcademy: It gets into the blood–shucks, even I went to war.

Dehede011: Hi, Y’all. πŸ™‚

LibertarianBill: Anyone know if that nw guy, the one who started all those arguments in AFH, will show up today?

AGplusone: in English. There’s no chance I could read them in French.

SAcademy: Hello, Ron. Did you have a good birthday?

LibertarianBill: Hello. Dehede

FraSprea: Hello.

AGplusone: Jim? Or “reilloc” … Hi, Ron.

LibertarianBill: yeah, that’s the one.

Dehede011: Yes, Ma’am and it was fun celebrating the anniversary of the Gunfight at Ok Corral also.

LibertarianBill: I thought I liked to argue ….yeesh!

AGplusone: Happy Birthday yesterday, Ron. You did have that drive on me.

AGplusone: He loves it, doesn’t he?

Dehede011: Yep, had fun too.

AGplusone: drink … not drive

LibertarianBill: well, Steve P and I have gotten into it on occassion … heh heh heh

Dehede011: No, no drinks, Bill Wilson wouldn’t like it.

Dehede011: πŸ™‚

SAcademy: Don”t mix uu[ the two!

LibertarianBill: But at least I admit it when I am wrong … sometimes.

AGplusone: Never … ‘designated drivers’ are a saver to the drinking class.

Dehede011: I am permanently in that class.

SAcademy: At least from the cops>

Dehede011: You wouldn’t believe how much fun a bar is when you are sober. πŸ™‚

AGplusone: About TEFL … shall we talk about it a little?

SAcademy: Never tried that.

Dehede011: SA do you realize how much “world as myth” fleshs out TEFL?

AGplusone: Howso, Ron?

Dehede011: I am just getting a glimmering and I want to go back and reread TEFL and all thereafter.

SAcademy: No, I didn’t know.

Dehede011: It gives an insight into RAHs mind and I start picking up little jokes.

AGplusone: I’m sorta waiting for someone to post a synopsis of the World AS Myth theory and show how they (the later novels) might like together into a projected form

AGplusone: might “link”

Dehede011: By TEFL RAH was a master who amused himself while writing another masterpiece

LibertarianBill: I think “Job” fits very well into the World as Myth, IMHO>

Dehede011: I am finishing JOB at this time.

SAcademy: I am especially fond of JOB

LibertarianBill: After all, in “Job” after death one journeys to the afterlife your believe to be real.

Dehede011: I really like TEFL from that viewpoint.

AGplusone: I can see how it might, nevertheless, I’d like to see it spelled out … what we’re talking about Francesco, is a theory that what RAH was doing in later words was stringing all the novels into one overall series of books–a whole–like a fellow named Cabell did with his works over the years.

AGplusone: works, not words

Dehede011: RAH is so in control of his work that he is like a cat with a mouse or a master boxer playing gotcha with his son.

FraSprea: I’ve heard about this “Cabell” thing, but I still have to read Bill Patterson’s work about it.

LibertarianBill: I don’t know if RAH was planning on doing that or not. I hope he wasn’t. Some works stand on their own and tying them into anothe runiverse sort of weakens their impact.

AGplusone: And Job:A Comedy of Justice, contains in its title a hint he might be doing it, because one of Cabell’s works is Jurgen:A Comedy of Justice and the form of one is very comparable to the other.

FraSprea: I see… a sign that RAH knew Cabell’s works

AGplusone: They are both a search for a woman through Heaven and Hell, etc., a la Dante.

AGplusone: He mentioned Cabell expressly in letters among other things.

AGplusone: He called Stranger in a Strange Land a Cabellian satire in a letter to his agent.

FraSprea: Oh yes, I remember.. maybe.. that’s in Grumbles, right?

AGplusone: Yes

FraSprea: Yes I remember then… I remember wondering what it meant

LibertarianBill: I re-read “TMWSTM” the other day, and as D. D. Harriman maneuvered and schemed, all I could think of was that Maureen Johnson was hidden in the background somewhere tipping the scales … I sort of weakened the Harriman character.

LibertarianBill: LibertarianBill: AGplusone: So, the theory as I understand it, is to bring all the novels together, as he does in Number of the Beast for example. (neither had I until people started bringing up the World As Myth, so I read Jurgen). Cabell’s Jurgen was banned in Boston, of course.

LibertarianBill: Being banned in Boston is a badge of honor.

AGplusone: Why I mentioned it.

FraSprea: Banned? and why?

LibertarianBill: What I really hate about these discussions is that they remind me how many, many good books there are out there that I will NEVER have time to read!

AGplusone: Cabell was one of the 1920s writers who fell out of great favor once the depression started.

Dehede011: Try adding one element to “the world as myth.” Add that RAH was building an idealized world for himself. Then start examining TEFL to Sail.

LibertarianBill: Why is anybook banned?

AGplusone: Basically salacious sexual imagery …

SAcademy: Robert always wanted to write a book that would be banned in Boston!

Dehede011: NOt really, I don’t think

AGplusone: Really very mild stuff today

FraSprea: Ah… usual silly reasons.

AGplusone: I would think so. I’d be proud to have one banned in Boston.

SAcademy: If they do that anymore, I haven’t heard about it.

Dehede011: If you take Dora as his idealized love story then look at the relationship between him and Maureen late in the book.

LibertarianBill: I liked discussing sex better when it was too dirty to mention in polite company. Now it is all anyone talks about besides the stock market and the speed of their Internet connection.

AGplusone: But the attitude towards religion isn’t very orthodox. In Jurgen, the real creator is this fellow in the end of Job:ACOJ, the Russian deity, who finds that Jurgen’s grandmother believes in the standard Judeo-Christain god, which did not exist, so to make her happy, he creates her God, Heaven and Hell, etc.

Dehede011: LibBill for that I would paraphrase Faulkner.

LibertarianBill: Who is this Faulkner person and why is he stealing my ideas?

Dehede011: That getting the girls to kiss him became much easier once he realized they didn’t do it entirely for his benefit.

Dehede011: But look at Dora and Maureen as parts of the same idealized woman. Am I off track here?

Dehede011: Then he can’t bring Dora back because he can’t have but one idealized woman on stage at any one time.

AGplusone: I think “reilloc” is correct, btw, in his assertion that all of the stories are deliberately slanted to lead into, and defuse knee-jerk sensitivity the Ted-Maureen romance.

LibertarianBill: I think “The Tale of the Adopted Daughter” was also a take on the Great American Frontier Myth as well.

AGplusone: That too

Dehede011: Yes, and is reflected in the family life in Sail.

AGplusone: But one thing I found myself wondering … the structure of 1001 Nights …

Dehede011: Both reflections of a happy but more basic lifestyle.

LibertarianBill: I don’t think RAH over glamorized the fronteir experience. He was quite clear about the hardships involved.

Dehede011: Yes

Dehede011: But whether in 1900s KC or on the SF frontier the happy life is basic

AGplusone: Scherazade is the tale teller to save her life from the king who wants to kill her, because he wants to kill all women …. here, in TEFL, Laz is the tale teller to someone who wants to restore life to him.

LibertarianBill: But his portrayal of how Dora happilly endured the privations all because thet were in love and raising babies, is quite a bit unrealistic, IMHO.

Dehede011: Is it more idealistic than what we know to be actual history.

LibertarianBill: Luckilly, not of these people had a disease or an injury …

AGplusone: Laz has to be begged to tell the tales … whereas Scherazade had to tell the tales to save herself.

LibertarianBill: It that it is unrealistic.

LibertarianBill: On the frontier, I ould imaging life would be harder.

LibertarianBill: I would imagine ….

Major oz has entered the room.

Dehede011: Yes, but if you go to “Civilwarhome.com” you can find the letters of an ancestor of mine that stayed with his wife for sixty years during those times despite opportunities to bug out.

LibertarianBill: Major oz: Hi, all

AGplusone: Hi, Oz

LibertarianBill: Howdy OZ

Dehede011: Hi Oz

FraSprea: Hi

AGplusone: We’re talking a little bit about TEFL, the Dora frontier story.

Major oz: hokay

Major oz: ….and my buddy, Buck

Major oz: I see a conspicuous absence here………..has a blessed event happened in Canada?

SAcademy: This is Jim again. We’re all going out for supper in a few minutes. I’ve really enjoyed meeting you. Ginny is going to send me info on a download that will let me reach your group after Lela and I get back to Memphis. I look forward to talking with you again. All the best

Dehede011: Thanks Jim.

Dehede011: SA I have a dance class party tonight, so there.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

AGplusone: Be good to see you Jim.

SageMerlin: Greetings all again

AGplusone: Hi, Alan … how’s it going?

SageMerlin: I am sitting up with a sick web site. In the middle of a major revision. I am relishing the interruption. It is blowing up a storm here by the way.

AGplusone: Jane stopped in earlier … said she was very tired but baby hadn’t make its presence known yet, that she might be back later in the chat, Oz.

LibertarianBill: You notice that NONE of L.L.’s descendants on either Boondock or Secundus are descended from him through Dora. They can’t all be back on New Beginnings. That was about a thousand years, more or less, before the L.L. begins his unwilling rejuvenation on Secundus.

Major oz: Where are you, Alan………Lubbock ?

LibertarianBill: Bye, Jim!

AGplusone: (Nope … place famous for banning books … Boston.)

LibertarianBill: Is this a clue that ther Dora story may be false?

Major oz: Bill; I was lamenting Thursday about the fact that none of LL and Dora’s descendents are ever heard from again.

AGplusone: That’s an interesting thought … what would the falsity lead you to believe, Bill ?

LibertarianBill: It is too bad one such character never showed up in a later book.

Major oz: Is there any precedent in any of the works that speaks to the descendents or ANY Howard with and ephemeral?

SageMerlin: Hey, we read them and then we ban them.

LibertarianBill: That L.L. was just making a point about something. I don’t know yet.

Major oz: an (no “d”)

Dehede011: Were they all ephemeral?

LibertarianBill: I am sure it happens.

Dehede011: Did he ever say?

Major oz: Dora was ….. hence my Question

Dehede011: Yes, but how about the kids?


LibertarianBill: Isn’t it clear by the end of MC that rejuvenation techniques were now available to the so-called ephemerals?

Dehede011: Sorry?

Dehede011: Yes,

AGplusone: The suggestion is that with the developments made on Earth during the … exactly, Bill

Major oz: Only, Bill for a couple hundred years or so.

AGplusone: But then the children have Laz’s genes too

Dehede011: But if this story is about RAHs personal world as myth isn’t all of that natural.

Major oz: Not to be able to extend out to the Howard extensable life span.

AGplusone: Dora is offered and refuses rejuvenation … presumably that was a significant extension.

LibertarianBill: So with all of Laz’s horney children poluting the gene pool, one would suspect after a 1000 years, New Beginnings residents have somewhat longer than average lifespans.

AGplusone: Maybe they do ….

Major oz: OK….I take it nobody recalls another instance of a Howard breeding with an ephemeral ?????

Dehede011: Maybe that is where the successor to SAIL comes in?

LibertarianBill: I remember young Woody worried that he knocked up some girl ….

SageMerlin: Not very much, though

Major oz: But did he know then what HE was?

LibertarianBill: Yes there is! Richard Collin Campbell Ames

AGplusone: Could be … but I remember Slayton Ford and wonder what he did for a sex life all those years.

LibertarianBill: D’oh!

SageMerlin: Ah, since when does sex have to result in reproduction?

Major oz: I recall Ford was REALLY depressed.

Dehede011: Yes, Dave and that was when space ships didn’t have bathrooms yet. πŸ™‚

Major oz: mayhap he didn’

Major oz: t bother

LibertarianBill: As birth control is not 100 percent perfect, eventually sex results in a child.

AGplusone: As whatzername in To Sail (the maid) sez: I did it hundreds of times and nothin’ happened, but …

AGplusone: Granny Bearclaw?

Major oz: …..that joke was OLD long before LL was “born”

SageMerlin: Maybe the way you do it Bill

AGplusone: You’re right, Richard Campbell probably is not a “Howard” because he seems to come from a universe that might be from TMIAHM or even from Troopers.

LibertarianBill: I thought he was from the universe that seemed similar to “Friday.” …

Major oz: I recall that most of LL and Dora’s kids married right there in the valley. I would speculate that the “longevity gene” got pretty diluted pretty fast.

FraSprea: But if he’s not a Howard his mother wasn’t either and here we have LL with an ephemeral, haven’t we?

LibertarianBill: But then, I haven’t read Friday in years and years

AGplusone: (or rather Wendy, Richard’s mother isn’t)

LibertarianBill: No, Wait, richard if from the TMIAHM universe. Definately.

Major oz: And the fact that they married in the valley mitigates against LL telling them “who they are”……indicating (to me, at least) that they weren’t

LibertarianBill: is from the … d’oh

AGplusone: From Moon perhaps because Manny shows up and the references to the hotel room, and possibly from Troopers because when he asks the hotel owner what unit, answer is: “Go For Broke”

Major oz: 446?

LibertarianBill: The sexual union between L.L. and Wendy had to take place after the events of TEFL.

AGplusone: 442

Major oz: right, slip of the finger………

LibertarianBill: So it woduld seem the lesson from “Tale of the Adopted Daughter” was NOT “Do not fall in love with an aphemeral/”

LibertarianBill: “ephemeral”

Major oz:

Major oz: OT, sorry:-D

LibertarianBill: I would imaging their are dozens of others who would fit in that catagory, Oz.

LibertarianBill: imagine

Major oz: as senators was my point………

LibertarianBill: and Dole did not lose an arm. It is simply imobile.

Major oz: as in “use of”

LibertarianBill: Ok then ..

AGplusone: [“442” is an American Regiment, 442th Infantry, the Japanese Americans, who fought in Italy and Southern France and Germany in WW2, Francesco … there’s a reference to a ship in Troopers “Go For Broke” which is the motto of the 442, Hawaiian slang: meaning ‘do your best’]

SAcademy has left the room.

Major oz: And the title of the movie…….

Dehede011: I used to eat lunch with a bunch of 442 vets.

FraSprea: [Thank you for the explainations]

Dehede011: By 1995 just a bunch of sweet little old men.

Major oz: The French were flabergasted that these, as they called them “Little Hawaiians” beat the s**t out of the Aryans.

Dehede011: By then they had retired from jobs at the Post Office and such.

AGplusone: Daniel Inoye is a Senator from Hawaii, who, as a Lieutenant, lost an arm in an action for which eventually he was awarded a Medal of Honor]. He got hit by a panzerfast at close range while attacking a machine gun nest.

AGplusone: He went on to kill the MG next

AGplusone: nest

Dehede011: I told our very young waitress who they were and she grew a foot with pride while waiting on them.

AGplusone: Dole was wounded in Northern Italy towards the end of the War as a Lieutenant in the 10th Mountain Division

Dehede011: Hey, isn’t that still active, Dave?

Major oz: Some truly amazing stories: a la Roger Young and Sgt Cole, USMC (from Missouri)

AGplusone: and lost the use of his arm

AGplusone: Recently, yes …

Dehede011: Their General graded them unready for service?

Major oz: who ?

LibertarianBill: They don’t teach students about heroes any more.

AGplusone: That one … because they were already deployed in Bosnia and couldn’t be counted to deploy elsewhere ….

Major oz: True, unless it fits the current trend in PC

Dehede011: Oz? the tenth mountain division General.

AGplusone: “unready” in the sense that they already were deployed

Dehede011: Right.

Dehede011: But wasn’t there something more.

Major oz: hokay

AGplusone: In otherwords a phoney political statement

Major oz: …guy down the road served with the 10th…..

Major oz: Just another local farmer that plays the guitar and banjo…..

Major oz: The Greatest Generation

AGplusone: Yep, and walks funny …

Major oz: I recommend Borcaw’s Book to one and all

Major oz: Brocaw

Major oz: my keyboard can’t spell

AGplusone: I still want to know why the inversion in roles between Scherazade and Lazarus ….

Dehede011: The Master of my Lodge was a warrior from the 101 in WWII. We had no idea; he was this very gentle and kind old man in his eighties.

Major oz: Kills time before he hits the “kill button”

AGplusone: she has to tell stories to keep alive and he has to be inticed to tell stories …. to be kept alive.

AGplusone: enticed

Major oz: Common ploy with the ill

Major oz: Or the depressed

Dehede011: And that is a major clue to the story as myth

AGplusone: True … and I always felt that the King in 1001 Nights was very unlikely to really want to listen to the chattering of a woman ….

Dehede011: The solution is to give LL his ideal life

AGplusone: especially one who kept moralizing …

Major oz: “…..and who knows — the horse may learn to talk……”

LibertarianBill: My keybored has the same problme.

AGplusone: So, I concluded that what she did between the sheets when she wasn’t talking each night had somethin’ to do with that.

Dehede011: The rest of the book illustrates various aspects of that solution.

LibertarianBill: Heinlein’s works have SOOOOO many layers to them

Major oz: I got the impression that the king was bored spitless…..and would listen to ANY story

Dehede011: That is what our Dave once famously said Lib Bill

AGplusone: Maybe every woman he had before that was terrified speechless and the mere novelty that one slated to die as soon as he had her for the evening fascinated him.

Major oz: The hard part is separating the real layers from some we may have cooked up in our minds.

LibertarianBill: There is a restaurant in Peoria called “Famous Dave’s” …. it serves delicious BBQ.

SageMerlin: Question: Does the name Leonard Woods figure anywhere in ST?

SageMerlin: Is there a troop ship by that name?

AGplusone: In Troopers?

LibertarianBill: There is a Fort Leonard Wood, as I seem to recall

AGplusone: I don’t recall one.

LibertarianBill: … or maybe I am mistaken. It wouldn’t be the first time.

SageMerlin: Yes. He was Roosevelt’s commanding officer in the assault on San Juan Hill

Major oz: Yes, Ft wood is about 30 miles from me……..it’s where I fill my prescriptions

AGplusone: Leonard Woods was the doctor commissioned Colonel for Spanish-American War, comming 1st Vol Cav

Dehede011: Wasn’t Fort Leanard Wood pretty much a WWII invention?

AGplusone: commanding

Dehede011: Truman investigated it.

AGplusone: He wound up Chief of Staff, Ron … I think it existed before then.

Major oz: Biggest basic training base for a number of years. Multiple missions today.

SageMerlin: How did a doctor win the medal of honor?

AGplusone: What was the date he won it?

Major oz: It was a garrison just after the Civil war

Major oz: I think…….

AGplusone: The MH was the only medal given before 1900

Major oz: WHAT?????

Dehede011: Before Leonard Wood gave it his name?

AGplusone: Yep.

Major oz: Purple Heart

Major oz: was given since early 1800’s

Major oz: but it was a bravery medal

AGplusone: Not until 1932, unless you go back to the Revolution

Major oz: not a bandage medal

AGplusone: Washington gave it to his troops

AGplusone: between then it didn’t exist

Major oz: I yield to the grunt

AGplusone: World War I you got an inverted chevron on your sleeve to indicate a wound

Major oz: πŸ˜€

AGplusone: πŸ˜€

Dehede011: When did the National Service ribbon come in?

AGplusone: WW2 I think

Major oz: the current one?

Dehede011: Either or.

Major oz: the current one was born circa 1968

Major oz: and it is a medal

Major oz: nicknamed “alive in 75”

AGplusone: They went through the MHs in the 1920s and devalued (withdrew) a lot of them as not merited

AGplusone: They started issuing other medals in WWI

LibertarianBill: I am under the impression that gave a medal to virtually everyone who participated in Desert Storm and the invasion of Panama.

Dehede011: Folks, I have to get on my Tux and go to a dance as “Professor ‘enry ‘iggins at your service.”

Major oz: ….as the only requirement for it is a pulse

AGplusone: Okay, Ron

LibertarianBill: See ya later

Major oz: have fun

Dehede011: NIte all.

FraSprea: night

Dehede011 has left the room.

AGplusone: But Leonard Wood’s MH may have been merited … reason they made him a regular Army Colonel was he’d actually taken over and lead troops while a surgeon during the Indian Wars

AGplusone: led

Major oz: I heard the story once, but have forgotten most of it.

Major oz: Now, the surgeon who REALLY deserved the mh was Walter Reed

LibertarianBill: I used to live at the site of the former Chanute AFB in Rantoul, Ill.

Major oz: Every man in the pacific theatre owes his life to WR

Major oz: Rantoul has the best 4th of July fireworks in the country.

Major oz: …..for a small sized city.

Major oz: Went to Minuteman schoo there.

Major oz: “l”

LibertarianBill: That may be true, OZ. They also have a helluva hot-air baloon festival.

Major oz: really? neat

LibertarianBill: I used to drive by the old minuteman training facilities … along Perimeter road, right?

Major oz: No place names left in the old brain.

LibertarianBill: That place has been converted almost entirely into private housing and apartments.

Major oz: My three year old daughter and I burried a cat under a rose garden in the city park in rantoul

LibertarianBill: The landing strips are now used by commercial aircraft

LibertarianBill: I, for one, thought the city would fold up and die.

Major oz: Many old bases are now “the projects”

Major oz: Larson AFB, near Moses Lake WA was different.

LibertarianBill: Yeah1 That’s then best use our fearless leaders can come up with … more handouts for the lazy and unproductive.

Major oz: A private contractor bought it and rents out the homes, convinced the local community college to relocate there, and got JAL to do ALL it’s training theere.

SageMerlin: I drove by Fort Devens a few days ago. They have painted out the FT. and now all its says is Devens, which is pretty strange because there is no such place as Devens.

Major oz: Great commercial aircraft

Major oz: associate degree at that school.

SageMerlin: (I was involved with a group tha was trying to do the same thing with Devens. Dropped out due to lack of interest.)

AGplusone: 10th Mountain isn’t there at all anymore is it, Alan?

SageMerlin: There is nothing at Devens any more. It’s gone. Demobilized and converted to civilian use.

SageMerlin: I meant that they painted out the FT on the road signs leading to devens

LibertarianBill: Meanwhile, we deploy troops overseas to make the world safe.

Major oz: “….meals on wheels..”

AGplusone: They had half of the 10th Special Forces Group there for a while too … probably deactived it … unless half the group is still at Bad Tolz

LibertarianBill: and the world is SOOOOOOOO gratefull

AGplusone: Somebody’s gotta have the fun, Bill

Major oz: I am just over 500 pages into The Dragon and the Bear. Clancy has a lot to say about our “peacekeepers”

LibertarianBill: … we just received a “thank you” note in yemen, I believe.

AGplusone: Then the story’s about to begin, in D & B, right, Oz.

SageMerlin: Theya re trying to turn Hanscom field into a commercial aviation center. Lots of luck. Surrounded by million plus homes.

Major oz: Just coming together……..

AGplusone: Clancy has a lot to say about a lot in that book …

Major oz: I didn’t know there were runways at Hanscom

AGplusone: Could cut about 300 pages out of the front end of that story ….

Major oz: Yeah……..it did smack of paid by the word for a while.

LibertarianBill: That comment could apply to any moden best-seller, AG.

AGplusone: ‘but that would be wrong!’ True, Bill.

LibertarianBill: Well, Clancy does use a ghost-writer, from what I hear.

Major oz: I think he is responding to critics that say he doesn’t

Major oz: ‘develop” his characters.

Major oz: Only on the op centeer stuff

Major oz:

AGplusone: So we had to get a pejoration on abortion laws and appointing conservatives to the Supreme Court …..

LibertarianBill: At some point, successful writers become unable to edit their own work. Heinlein was no exception. He works got longer and longer. Heinlein was no exception.

Major oz: Unkike LTC DuBois………… ???

AGplusone: I already knew Ryan was an Irish-American Roman Catholic

Major oz: Unlike

SageMerlin: No runways…..it is called Hanscomb Field

LibertarianBill: IS Harrison Ford going to play Ryan in the NEXT movie? Ford already played the President in “Air Force One”.

AGplusone: No.

Major oz: Turned down an assignment to Hanscom

AGplusone: Trying to remember his name … but someone else, younger.

Major oz: It was a computer / elint / spook base

AGplusone: Already signed for the role

LibertarianBill: Younger? That describes just about everybody.

Major oz: Pave Paws, etc.


Major oz: Yeah, Ford was the prez in AF1

AGplusone: Anyone see U571?

Major oz: You may be thinking of Baldwin in Ottober

LibertarianBill: Personally, I found the on-screen chemistry between Harrison and Anne Heche to be irresistable.

AGplusone: No, it’s not Baldwin

AGplusone: They’re not going back to him

LibertarianBill: I think Baldwin was a better Ryan.

AGplusone: So did I

Major oz: Yes, Alec Baldwin was Ryan in Red October

LibertarianBill: Ryan’s character is an “unlikley hero.” That ain’t Harrison Ford.

AGplusone: Watched U 571 last night. Well worth it.

AGplusone: Somebody who knew what it was about did the screenwriting.

Major oz: What is U571?

AGplusone: Submarine story, WW2, early

Major oz: Is that the American das boot ?

AGplusone: Sorta

Major oz: About picking up the U-boat?

AGplusone: Attempt to capture an enigma device

LibertarianBill: No, the the one that has U.S. Navy performing a dead actually performed by the British.

LibertarianBill: I don’

Major oz: The brits are screaming about that…..saying THEY did it.

LibertarianBill: I don’t blame the British for being pissed off.

AGplusone: They admit they’ve consolated three different operations … two of which were Brit

AGplusone: They say so in the end credits

Major oz: Our revenge for Monty

LibertarianBill: Yeah, the end credits. I always wait and watch the end credits.

AGplusone: But it’s well written and researched, props are correct, and very well acted.

Major oz: what a twit….(good British word)

LibertarianBill: But the Brits have no right to be pissed at The Patriot.

Major oz: I don’t go to movies any more.

AGplusone: They’re lucky we didn’t name Butcher Tarlton by his real name

AGplusone: whatever it was … they’ve long ago cut that out of the history books

Major oz: Its 35 miles to a small town screen, and the gen Xers still talk to the screen and kick the seat backs………..

Major oz: HBO, Showtime, and Blockbuster for me.

AGplusone: U 571 is on tape. I watched it that way last night

Major oz: hokay

Major oz: will get it

AGplusone: Good cast. You’ll like it Oz

AGplusone: Even Doctor Dave

AGplusone: Wadda think, fellows … we hand it up?

AGplusone: hang

Major oz: think so……

LibertarianBill: I read one review of the Patriot, and this was by a full-time movie critic, that discussed it almost entirely from a pro-gun control perspective.

Major oz: Next time is “Wimmen in Heinlein” yes?

AGplusone: Okay, next meeting’s Women In Heinlein …. with a cast of thousands cohosting …

LibertarianBill: Well, since Heinblein hasn’t been mentioned for the past 15 minutes. I say we hang it up.

AGplusone: or at least Jane and Randi and I think Merfilly since Ebon is back home

Major oz: Ebon is home?

AGplusone: Yes. Count’s back up.

LibertarianBill: Ebontress is HOME!!!! Yay!!!!

Major oz: goooooooood !!!!!

AGplusone: Yep, good news

Major oz: I suggest someone make an effort to invite Jen O’mally to these here sessions.

LibertarianBill: Bye all!!!!

AGplusone: And I’ll try to keep the posts somewhere in the ballpark this time … I think I will.

Major oz: She sounds like someone I would like to talk tol

AGplusone: Bye, Bill.

LibertarianBill: Me too. Every Readers’ Discussion Group needs an Uberbabe.

Major oz: b bull

FraSprea: Bye Bill

AGplusone: Actually I enjoy Phebe

AGplusone: also

Major oz: We DO need more fem representation.

LibertarianBill: Bye again.

LibertarianBill has left the room.

SageMerlin: By bye bill

AGplusone: What I want is a copy of the photo of her costumed ….

SageMerlin: Okay you all I gotta go back to my sick web site.

SageMerlin has left the room.

AGplusone: Hokay, Alan

Major oz: As described in one of the posts

Major oz: ????

AGplusone: Absolutely!

Major oz: Detreich

AGplusone: Uh-huh.

Major oz: “…….faaaaaaling in looooove again…….”

Major oz: πŸ˜€

AGplusone: Ah well. Next time we’ll try to discuss the subject,

Francesco …. thanks for coming.

FraSprea: Thank you!

AGplusone: Did I introduce you to our Italian guest, Oz?

Major oz: Oh, is this Francesco from Italy.

Major oz: ?

AGplusone: Yep!

Major oz: I am enjoying your postings.

FraSprea: It’s been very interesting and I’ll sure be back, maybe participating more, next times πŸ™‚

AGplusone: I think so … thanks again.

Major oz: hokay, all……see ya next time

Major oz: night

Major oz has left the room.

AGplusone: Both of you for those condolences

FraSprea: thank you!, bye!

AGplusone: Closing log: Saturday, October 28, 2000, 4:13:48 PM, PDT

AGplusone: bye

FraSprea has left the room.

AGplusone has left the room.

Final End Of Discussion Log

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