Heinlein Readers Discussion Group
Saturday 09-20-2003 5:00 P.M.
Heinlein’s Heroines
Here Begins the Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group Chat.”
OscagneTX: Howdy, David.
OscagneTX: I’m endevouring not to screw up the log this time.
DavidWrightSr: Hey. I jus checked in early to make sure I got everything. I’ve got to run to the store and will be back in a while.
OscagneTX: I’ll be lurking here.
DavidWrightSr: It’s not supposed to start for a good while yet, but often a lot of people drop in early.
OscagneTX: That’s what I was thinking.
DavidWrightSr: C ya later.
OscagneTX: Later.
aggirlj has entered the room.
aggirlj: I’m confused, time wise. Am I really early or close to being on time
OscagneTX: Howdy.
OscagneTX: Still about 1:15 until.
aggirlj: Thanks, I told Kultsi right then. He should be here when the time is right. So I’ll go about my biz and do some laundry. I’ll just lurk her though.
OscagneTX: Okie dokey.
AGplusone has entered the room.
aggirlj: Oh, hi David.
OscagneTX: howdy
AGplusone: I see you made it Joe. Hi, Jane …. lurking David
OscagneTX: Yeah, I wasn’t sure. But I got it installed here at work.
AGplusone: I almost talked Spider Robinson into coming here last night.
OscagneTX: |^O
AGplusone: Got him over looking at the pre-chat posts on the web achives. He was fascinated, but is “AIM phobic”
OscagneTX: I’m sure that’s an interesting story.
OscagneTX: I was just re-reading the first callahans while I was in the gents’.
AGplusone: He writes in the middle of the night and we got into an e-mail exchange.
OscagneTX: How did that initiate? Did you just decide to send him an email?
OscagneTX: Hm. I keep forgetting that you guys live in more rarified air than I. %^)
OscagneTX: Nm. Dr. Rufo was on earlier. He sends his regrets.
AGplusone: Said he was dying reading the posts . . . until he realized it was on AIM, then it was just dying. He tried AIM years ago and it scared him. He sent me a photo his wife took at the banquet of Amy receiving the award for Ginny.
aggirlj: I am at a higher altitude ’tis true, but rarified.
AGplusone: Suggested we use it on the website report of the Heinlein Awards.
Kultsi KN has entered the room.
OscagneTX: Ah.
OscagneTX: Howdy, Kultsi.
AGplusone: And so we got to talking by e-mail. Hi, Kultsi.
aggirlj: Howdy
Kultsi KN: Hi all!
OscagneTX: Dr. Rufo has agreed to help with the pre-chat discussion, but says he probably won’t be able to make the chats very much.
starfall2 has entered the room.
starfall2: hi
OscagneTX: howdy
aggirlj: Hi Jackie
AGplusone: Hi, Jackie …
AGplusone: Did Dave get all the Thursday chat up yet?
OscagneTX: We lost some. My fault.
aggirlj: Just a short zip in the beginning. But not much.
OscagneTX: I had saved early, but got disconnected and when I saved the end I accidentally saved over the first part.
Kultsi KN: How’s everybody? Long time, no C.
aggirlj: Fine, had a lot of fun in Toronto.
OscagneTX: You know, K: Work, school, other work, sleep, etc.
AGplusone: Might ask anyone who attended earlier if they have logs. There is an automatic log ability on AIM now that some people don’t know is in their computer, and they may have it.
AGplusone: E.g., Jackie if she was here.
starfall2: no
aggirlj: Mwhaaaaa.
starfall2: i was only there for part of it
aggirlj: Or Moi?
OscagneTX: Hmm. Do you suppose it would be worth it to find a platform Spider’s not afraid of for one chat? Then he could at least be a guest at one.
AGplusone: They have to have the latest version in and have to have it set up to automatically log …
OscagneTX: Jane, do you have the missing peice?
aggirlj: I’m one of them that David is referring to. I have it in place now.
AGplusone: I actually think if we could get someone up to where he lives they could set it up for him pretty easy … like what happened with Ginny.
OscagneTX: Does he still live way out in the boondocks of Canada?
AGplusone: I may be going up to Seattle early this next year.
AGplusone: Sorta, but … it’s reachable from Vancouver.
AGplusone: And I left a small ticking bomb in my last email to him this morning … fishing for an invitation.
AGplusone: 😎
OscagneTX: You know… the hard part of setting up AIM is all the registration stuff. What if we set him up an account and sent him a disk with the installer, and a pre-made link to the chat room? Just include a note with:
OscagneTX: “Double click on _this_, then _this_, then put in *username and *password.” That’s all I really did to get this work version going.
AGplusone: Tried that about three years ago. Didn’t work. He’s really AIM phobic. Like Jerry Pournelle.
OscagneTX: Wow.
heron26h has entered the room.
AGplusone: But he’s slowly getting into the 20th century now, so there’s hope.
OscagneTX: Not computers in general? Just AIM? Is it a political thing, do you think? %^)
heron26h: Is Eric here yet?
OscagneTX: not yet.
heron26h: Let me page him
AGplusone: Computers a little scary to him. and it is political …. Hi, Heron, I’m David.
aggirlj: Hi, I’m Jane.
starfall2: hi, i’m jackie
Kultsi KN: Hi! Me Kultsi, you ??
AGplusone: “David the Younger” as opposed to the really old guy named David Wright who is lurking.
starfall2: and you’re not really old, too?
OscagneTX: And I am “Osc” or “Joe”, either way.
starfall2: 🙂
AGplusone: Naw, I’m like you. Just another college freshman.
Eflint46312 has entered the room.
OscagneTX: I thought that was “David the other Elder”… %^)
starfall2: hehe
AGplusone: Hi, Eric ….
OscagneTX: Howdy, Eric.
starfall2: hi
aggirlj: Hi, Eric.
heron26h: Hi all,
Eflint46312: Hi, I’m here
heron26h: Hi Eric,
Kultsi KN: Hi, Eric!
AGplusone: glad you came …. missed you thursday when I was late. Looks like you had fun.
Eflint46312: Fair warning: at some point I’ll need to leave for a few minutes to make a pot of coffee. Gotta have my caffeine…
OscagneTX: No problem.
AGplusone: we do that this way: brb making tea now.
starfall2: not a problem
OscagneTX: And I’m at work, periodically I’ll have to leave for about 2 minutes to do a “patrol”.
heron26h: I know, gotta have that caffeine
heron26h: btw, this is Cheryl
OscagneTX: Howdy, Cheryl.
heron26h: good to meet you
starfall2: nice to meet you
AGplusone: back, in the micro …
Kultsi KN: Hi, Cheryl, nice to meet ya! I’m Kullervo Nurmi, and I hail from Finalnd.
AGplusone: Nice to meet you, Cheryl
Kultsi KN: *Finland
OscagneTX: So that’s where all the hail comes from. What else to you do from Finland?
heron26h: Hi, well was there a real Heinlein discussion going yet?
OscagneTX: not yet.
Kultsi KN: Getting all deeish with my typing.
OscagneTX: we were talking housekeeping mostly.
heron26h: yes, I got the word interpreted correctly
heron26h: oh dear, bad subject
OscagneTX: not “real” housekeeping… Reader’s Group Housekeeping.
heron26h: ahh
OscagneTX: Mostly pondering how to entice Spider Robinson to join us.
AGplusone: Be great if Filly made it today: one of our regulars, Stephanie Vickers, had her baby last Thursday ….
OscagneTX: That would be nice, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. She’s probly a bit busy. %^)
Eflint46312: Okay, I snuck out and got my coffee started.
aggirlj: I know she would have been here but for a small event.
AGplusone: not that Eric Flint isn’t quite enough, but I was emailing him last night and he read the first part log and was fascinated by it.
Eflint46312: What in particular fascinated him?
AGplusone: It’s up now: https://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
aggirlj: I’m curious too.
AGplusone: He said actually everything from the pre-meeting posts on …. then he died because it’s on AIM, and he’s AIM phobic.
AGplusone: Every time he read a post, or a comment, he went crazy and wanted to reply.
OscagneTX: Hehe.
aggirlj: How about the one on copyrights?
Eflint46312: Um, well, yeah. You really do need to get into a relaxed online chat mode to survive a chat room
Eflint46312: It’s a bit like bit in a busy bar with five conversations going on at once
Kultsi KN: And you need fast fingers, too.
heron26h: thats true, I am usually too hyper
aggirlj: And fast connections.
AGplusone: Ginny thought the same thing. She was terrified at first, then got really comfortable, even with her eyesight problem.,
Eflint46312: Urk. And I’m a writer…. That shoulda been “a bit like BEING in a busy bar”
AGplusone: We were concluding that the best way might be to finagle a visit, set it up for him on a lap and let him see.
OscagneTX: Nobody pays attention to typos here, Eric, unless they are just very very humorous. The speed of typing cuts down on editing, you know.
aggirlj: I think he would go crazy and get with it really quick.
Kultsi KN: Any of you seen this bit about the written language being readable if only the first and the last letter are there?
Eflint46312: Yeah, I know. But it’s one of the habits a professional writer tends to develop
OscagneTX: That’s a hoax, Kultsi, at least partially.
AGplusone: see how easy it really is …. Poul Anderson was the same, in a way, but he let Karen act as his ‘voice’ and it was a great chat we had with him. Karen is computer adapted.
DavidWrightSr: Hi everyone. I’m back finally.
OscagneTX: The concept seems valid, but none of the Unis mentioned will claim it as their research.
OscagneTX: WB.
starfall2: wb
heron26h: WB
aggirlj: wb
Kultsi KN: Of course it’s a hoax, but the piece given as an example is quite readable.
Eflint46312: Acronym alert! Gotta get my trusty shotgun loaded with birdshot… slaughters dozens of pesky acronyms at a time…
Kultsi KN: Wollcome Back!
Kultsi KN: yea, right.
aggirlj: what he said.
OscagneTX: hehe
AGplusone: Eric: what did you think about talking Jim Baen into one of these? any possibility?
Eflint46312: I dunno. The best way to do it is simply send him an email or post the question on the Bar in Publisher’s Podium
OscagneTX: I can do that.
Eflint46312: He’s quite approachable, really. Mind you, he might simply say “no”
AGplusone: I have his e-mail and someone told him to expect an e-mail from me on another subject recently.
AGplusone: Maybe I’ll add that on to what I’m supposed to talk to him about
OscagneTX: Dr. Rufo and I are thinking of doing something about the circularity of many of RAH’s concepts as the base of the next talk.
Eflint46312: Feel free to mention that I was on it recently, if you think that might help
AGplusone: I will AND I do.
AGplusone: John Rambo has been here before. Used to drop in often, using his ‘panther505′ name.
Eflint46312: Jim knew RAH personally, which I never did, so he’d have that to bring to it
AGplusone: Yes, definitely. Rambo told us there’s an AIM room they use on the Baen site. Never could find it. Is it still there? Operating?
Eflint46312: Is it an AIM room? I didn’t think so. I’ve used the Baen chat room, in times past. It often seemed to have problems, with people getting bumped out all the time
heron26h: not really on Baen, but an invitation only AIM chat
heron26h: because the room on Baen has so many problems
DavidWrightSr: Anybody can have an AIM room. You just have to designate a specific name and use it
AGplusone: I’ll have to ask for an invitation some time. ah.
OscagneTX: brb
heron26h: just IM me sometime in the evening, but it is often totally off the wall and not about books
Kultsi KN: Which chatroom isn’t?
OscagneTX: b
starfall2: wb
OscagneTX: thx. htbb. wylaboyc?
heron26h: I was trying to think earlier what my favorite Heinlein woman was, and had no favorite. That is true chat seems to be to frenetic
OscagneTX: %^)
AGplusone: Was just reading the part of the chat Thursday about your writing one character in Yeats, Eric. Fascinating. Must have been rough to have to throw all that away.
aggirlj: What Joe!
OscagneTX: Thanks. Happy to be back. Would you like a beverage of your choice?
OscagneTX: Just pulling legs.
aggirlj: Yeah
starfall2: i’ll be back… i’m headed to one of the dining halls to get some food
Eflint46312: Well… what I did was simply take the poetic passages and turn them into prose descriptions
AGplusone: I was reading Turtledove’s Ruled Britannia last few days. Wondered how hard it was for him to write the Shakespearian language he used in it. Almost have to have a machine to translate to write that way.
Eflint46312: So it wasn’t _that_ hard. What makes rewriting really time-consuming is when you run into continuity problems which requires you to rewrite entire chapters
AGplusone: Nothing “simply’ about it. Bet it was hard work.
Eflint46312: Yes. Dave Drake studied several books to get the dialect right in OLD NATHAN
AGplusone: What poems especially did you rely on … not that I’ve read a great deal of Yeats.
Eflint46312: There were a lot of them. I can’t recall offhand
Eflint46312: Basically, I went through my copy of Yeats Collected Poems and highlighted any line I ran across that struck me it might fit somewhere
AGplusone: Turtledove was lucky that way. Certainly a lot of Willy the S … as we called him in the late ’60s where I studied him.
Eflint46312: Then I selected a lot of them, and not others. The logic was dictated by the novel, not the poetry itself
Eflint46312: But the truth is that a lot of what good writers do is simply a lot of research
AGplusone: Yeah … but just having enough … you must have had to write some yourself to fill in the gaps.
AGplusone: to bridge over … and that took a lot to do.
Eflint46312: If any of you have read Rats, Bats and Vats, my co-author Dave Freer spend a _lot_ of time researching Shakespeare’s Falstaff comedies and Gilbert & Sullivan to get the dialogue of the rats and bats right
AGplusone: No, but I probably will, just to see the example.
OscagneTX: I enjoyed that one.
heron26h: Just finished, and yes, they are right
heron26h: getting ready for work
Eflint46312: Some of it is optical, frankly. You’d be surprised at how far you can stretch a little dialect or parody of a literary style
Eflint46312: We’re just about finished with the sequel to Rats, Bats and Vats, by the way. The tentative title is The Rats, The Bats, and The Ugly
Kultsi KN: LOL
heron26h: Yes, it was a lot of fun though, and it really makes them “human”
aggirlj: 🙂
AGplusone: brb, my tea finally got hot enough … getting really emershed would do that … find yourself talking in Yeats to your friends, I’ll bet, after a while.
Eflint46312: Don’t tell the rats and bats that. 🙂 “Human” would not be considered praise, from their point of view.
heron26h: I know! 🙂 I tried for a long while to figure out how to phrase that differently
Eflint46312: They think we’re nuts. Part of the trick of the books is to get the reader to understand that, from their viewpoint, we ARE frickin’ nuts.
heron26h: just so
OscagneTX: OH… I just remembered. Dr. Rufo (another regular) wanted me to pass on that he tried downloading 1632 three times yesterday and recieved a corrupted copy every time.
Kultsi KN: Aren’t we, from any POV?
aggirlj: Only way to survive, I think.
Eflint46312: Where did he download it from? And in which format? If I know that, I can pass it along to Arnold
OscagneTX: DrRufosGlory (3:30:49 PM): BTW, I tried to download 1632 from the Baen site and it was a “corrupt” file — pieces missing. I did it twice with the same results. Can you tell Mr. Flint?
OscagneTX: That was all he said about it.
DavidWrightSr: I had no problem with it or with Mother of Demons.
Eflint46312: Yes and no. The key to RBV is that the “nuttiness” of humans is seen from the clearly defined angle of now-intelligent species who have their own fairly coherent view of things.
heron26h: yes, and it is coherent, if limited
pixelmeow has entered the room.
Eflint46312: A lot of the problems are due to — whatever the right computerese for this is — a mismatch between the format being downloaded and the software on your own computer
aggirlj: Hi Teresa.
Kultsi KN: Hi, Pix!
pixelmeow: hi!
OscagneTX: Howdy, Pix.
heron26h: hi
Eflint46312: To go back to RBV for a moment, that’s not the same thing as the “general nuttiness” that almost every human thinks is true about his or her fellows from time to time
OscagneTX: I’ll ask him next time I talk to him. Or have him email the appropriate admin on the baen site.
heron26h: yes, it is more that they think our entire species is just plain insane,
Eflint46312: he can also send me a letter to the Librarian in the Free Library. I’ll forward it to Arnold. But we will need more details or we can’t do much,
OscagneTX: On RBV, is the nuttiness of a different quality, or quantity?
Eflint46312: because the problem is that lots of other people — see above for one example — are not having problems
Eflint46312: They think we’re insane in specific ways, too, which relate to their own different situation as a species
OscagneTX: i.e. I could say I think someone is nuts, and still be friendly to them. Or I could thing they’re freakin’ insane and not want to have anything to do with them.
Eflint46312: The rats, for instance, think the human obsession with monogamy and sexual fidelity is just plain weird
Eflint46312: And then the bats think the rats are obsessed with sex
Eflint46312: And then the humans… heh heh. Those books are a lot of fun to write
AGplusone: Sort of a Mowgli approach revisted?
AGplusone: Written from three viewpoints?
Eflint46312: I can’t tell you, to be honest, because it’s been so long since I read those stories — 50 years, almost — that I just don’t remember well enough
heron26h: I didn’t see it that way,
Eflint46312: Well, the viewpoints of three different intelligent species. (Five, actually, since there are also two intelligent alien species in the story)
heron26h: and no I think there were more individual viewpoints than that
Eflint46312: That’s not the same thing as who the viewpoint characters are. Those are mostly humans, except for some scenes here and there
Eflint46312: And there are more than three of them
AGplusone: But, in a way a chance to satire viewpoints as Robert did with Michael Valentine Smith in SiaSL?
heron26h: Yes
Eflint46312: We’ve also written a novella which serves as a prequel to RBV, called “Genie Out of the Vat.” That will be appearing in an anthology edited by Toni Weisskopf at some point
heron26h: 🙂
Eflint46312: The technique goes way further back than that. “The Innocent Abroad” method goes way back before Twain, for that matter
AGplusone: There was a SF story I read years ago, early one, about a scientist who evolved lab rats … remember it?
Eflint46312: No, I don’t
Eflint46312: As it happens, RBV was originally written by me in the form of short story. But I couldn’t get it published, hmph.
AGplusone: Grew his superspecies in the lab … watched them evolve …. became his ‘children’
Dehede011 has entered the room.
heron26h: Some things take more time than others
aggirlj: Hi Ron
Dehede011: Hi folks
OscagneTX: howdy
heron26h: Hi
Pixelmeow: hi!
Kultsi KN: Hi, Ron!
Dehede011: This looks like a good sized mob.
Pixelmeow: 🙂
aggirlj: Not bad for a Sattidy.
aggirlj: Or Sunday, Kultsi?
Dehede011: And like a mob we are organized.
Kultsi KN: Yes, Sunday.
Dehede011: 😉
Dehede011: If anyone is interested, I just finished my 3rd Sarah Hoyt novel.
aggirlj: Which one?
Dehede011: And she was a very good read, she passed the Heinlein test
OscagneTX: I keep meaning to get those, but I’ve gotten stuck on WEB Griffin lately.
Dehede011: The 2nd of the Shakespearian alternate histories — All Night Awake.
aggirlj: She’s been writing like a fiend lately.
Dehede011: Yes, I believe so.
Dehede011: She is well worth buying her book instead of the same price in beer
aggirlj: We’re going to be at the DenCon in October. She’s going to get a blood drive goin.
aggirlj: going
Dehede011: Sounds good, tell her to send some to me. LOL
aggirlj: She does do some mythic stuff to.
Dehede011: She had a good effect on me — I was stuck at a certain point in my novel. After reading her the log jam broke with a vengeance.
AGplusone: [just d/l-ed 1632, RTF version, no problem]
AGplusone: Why the middle of Germany, Eric?
Dehede011: I beg your pardon, Dave. LOL
DavidWrightSr: mine was the HTML zipped version.
Dehede011: brb
starfall2: back
aggirlj: wb
OscagneTX: front
Kultsi KN has left the room.
OscagneTX: Well, since Stephanie’s off doing something frivolous (like giving birth, or something) Let’s give her her inning… she said:
Eflint46312: I’d had the idea for using a coal mining town as the collective protagonist for several years, but I hadn’t figured out the setting
heron26h: Either Eric is typing a very long answer or he needs more coffee
AGplusone: I usually need about four cups to get through one of these. 🙂
Kultsi KN has entered the room.
Eflint46312: Then one day, as I was doing research on the Thirty Years War because I wanted to use it as a model for developing the alien background in a novel I’ll be doing with Dave Drake in the future
OscagneTX: He tried much harder to get inside the ladies’ minds as he progressed. Perhaps a direct reflection of having an active woman contributor (i.e. Ginny). Early on, the women, when there are any, seem flat.
Pixelmeow: hi!
Merfilly27 has entered the room.
Pixelmeow: hi, Mom!!!
Merfilly27: good eve all
Eflint46312: it suddenly dawned on me that the middle of the TYW would make the perfect setting for my protagonists
OscagneTX: Speak of the devil.
aggirlj: Hey, congrats!!!!
Kultsi KN: Filly!!!! Conga Rats!!!
Merfilly27: I will not be staying, but I did wish to thank everyone
OscagneTX: Congrats, Steph.
Pixelmeow: all these dancing rodents…
Eflint46312: And if you’re going to set a story in the middle of the TYW, you set it in Germany — because that’s where the war was mostly waged
Pixelmeow: cigars all around!
Merfilly27: blue ones
Pixelmeow: 😀
OscagneTX: I was just talking for you, Steph. By copying from your post.
AGplusone: . . . Filly had a son Thursday, Eric. Okay, makes sense. Eric. Thanks. Yeah, for mommy, Stephanie.
Merfilly27: ahh
Kultsi KN: Pix, you got a pic of Jake!
Eflint46312: Congratulations, Filly
Pixelmeow: I do???
Dehede011: Hey, Filly you were dead right on your prediction about the length of your hospital stay.
Merfilly27: I’ll read the archive…pity, I had really wanted to make this chat
starfall2: hi stephanie!
DavidWrightSr: Archives
AGplusone: She and I were chatting Monday about your visit and decided to d/l the same book then I made a fatal bet. Said: bet you have the baby on Thursday before the visit … famous last words.
Dehede011: Hey Steph, ((**))
Pixelmeow: you take care of yourself, Filly.
Merfilly27: Again, thank you for the warm thoughts, they helped
Kultsi KN: Steph, Some Things Are More Important Than Others.
OscagneTX: Yup
Merfilly27: And I will talk to everyone anon….good eve
Merfilly27 has left the room.
Dehede011: Like a brand new son, right Kultsi?
Pixelmeow: Kultsi, what on EARTH are you talking about?
DavidWrightSr: A real Heinlein Heroine. My conga-rats
Kultsi KN: Right, Ron!
AGplusone: Visit of proud mommie! Back to chat.
heron26h: So what exactly made you decide to combine the TYW and WV?
AGplusone: Hatsfields and McCoys?
OscagneTX: Since we’ve broken the thread here, why don’t we break for five minutes?
heron26h: OK
Eflint46312: OK
starfall2: k
AGplusone: [Hatfields, d’oh]
OscagneTX: Okay, I have 17:04… everyone back at 17:09?
AGplusone: sounds good to me :-)open bottle of wine and water cat!
Kultsi KN: Not the other way round, pls!
Pixelmeow: Kultsi, who is Jake?
Kultsi KN: My Buddy Icon
AGplusone: bottle of cats would be difficult. Cat might be rilly, rilly annoyed.
Pixelmeow: well, I’ve been online and/or on the computer ALL day, and I need a rest, so you all take care, have fun
AGplusone: Hit “1632” in google to see if I could guess what novel might be about. DOB of John Locke. don’t suppose that’s it, but I’ll find out eventually.
aggirlj: See you T.
OscagneTX: g’night, Pix.
starfall2: goodngiht
AGplusone: night Teresa
Pixelmeow: g’night, all. 🙂
Kultsi KN: Night, Pix!
Pixelmeow: And David, I still want my sound maker….
Pixelmeow: “environments” or whatever it was
Pixelmeow: 😛
AGplusone: Mailing all sorts of stuff this week.
Pixelmeow: night, all!
pixelmeow has left the room.
AGplusone: Medallions that are now engraved, lost rosaries, and soundmakers.
KeithWCunningham has entered the room.
OscagneTX: Okay, to get back to it: Steph had posted: “He tried much harder to get inside the ladies’ minds as he progressed. Perhaps a direct reflection of having an active woman contributor (i.e. Ginny). . .
Eflint46312: I’ m back, coffee in hand
KeithWCunningham: hello room
OscagneTX: Early on, the women, when there are any, seem flat.” Discussion?
starfall2: hi
OscagneTX: howdy, KWC.
KeithWCunningham: hi Eric
aggirlj: Hi Keith.
heron26h: Hi Keith
Eflint46312: I can’t say I ever found any female character in a Heinlein story “flat,” that I can recall
Eflint46312: One-dimensional, perhaps, but that’s not the same thing
Eflint46312: The truth — pay no attention to the lit’rachure perfessers — 99% of all characters in all fiction one one-dimensional
Dehede011: Always wanted to meet several of his earlier female characters. They didn’t seem anymore underdeveloped than the male characters
DavidWrightSr: One of my earliest impressions of Heinlein, when I was a callow youth, was that his characters were “real”, especially remembering thingking of that with respect to Grandma Hazel
KeithWCunningham: in some ways his female characters were more complicated than his male characters – – look at the moon is a harsh mistress
Dehede011: Example, Lost Legacy and Let There be Light
Eflint46312: The real difference between good and bad writers is that a good writer will sketch that one dimension extremely well, so you remember it
aggirlj: Currently reading.
aggirlj: TMIAHM
KeithWCunningham: acronym’s abound
Eflint46312: A classic case in point is Shakespeare. Be honest — exactly how many “dimensions” are there to Hamlet and Macbeth other than “indecisive” or “ambitious”?
OscagneTX: So you don’t think his later female characters were more dynamic?
Dehede011: Mary in Puppet Masters seems as well done as Sam or Kettlebelly
OscagneTX: How about instead of “flat” we say “less dynamic than the later-written ladies”?
Eflint46312: You have to define what you mean by “later”
OscagneTX: Post-Ginny. I believe that was the gist of Steph’s post.
Eflint46312: From my viewpoint, probably the most dynamic female character in an RAH story is Wyoh
Dehede011: I agree he learned to develop both male and female characters better as he went along
KeithWCunningham: granted, my experience is limited, but I have to agree with Eric about Wyoh
Eflint46312: I’m not sure what you mean by “post-Ginny”
OscagneTX: After he got together with Virginia.
Dehede011: Yes, and in one comment I commented having forgotten “post Ginny” I plead guilty
OscagneTX: Say… 1946(?) and following?
Eflint46312: If you mean after his marriage to Virginia, I may be wrong but I thought that happened pretty early in his writing career
Dehede011: I think 1948
KeithWCunningham: he didn’t have all that much out before 48 did he?
Eflint46312: Okay, now I get it. Hm. I’d have to think about it. I don’t recall offhand which of his stories were written prior to 1946
OscagneTX: many short stories, wasn’t it?
heron26h: Mostly
OscagneTX: That was still the pulp days.
Eflint46312: Also, don’t try to separate RAH completely from the whole SF environment
KeithWCunningham: yeah. . . . and Starship Troopers too – – though I don’t know if there really was all that much room for a strong female character in that
DavidWrightSr: Most of the Future History was written prior to that
Eflint46312: It’s just a fact that well into the 50s — in truth, well into the 60s — SF was an almost exclusively male-environment storytelling milieu
AGplusone: It’s really hard to say, as Doc James points out, whether it was post-ginny that did it, or simply editorial loosening up to allow a ’round’ female character about circa 1950. Consider the difference between Sister Maggie in the pre
OscagneTX: You could probably make a case for Capt. Deldreir, but she was mostly a bit-character in the story.
AGplusone: war version and the post war version.
Dehede011: Most or all of The Past Through Tomorrow was before Ginny I believe.
DavidWrightSr: Deladrier?
KeithWCunningham: the naval captain in ST
OscagneTX: Wasn’t that the name of the Captain of the ship Rico served on?
Eflint46312: Take a look at almost any of the stories published in Analog during that stretch. Story after story after story without a _single_ female even in the story, much less as a “character”
AGplusone: spelled a little differently, but yes.
KeithWCunningham: true. . . . styles changed all across the board. . . not just in SF in that period
AGplusone: Deladier, or something — have to look it up.
heron26h: I know, that was why the librarians thought I was so strange to take them out
Eflint46312: My point is that you have to match Heinlein at that time period against the SF average when it came to the use of female characters
Dehede011: Deladrier — of the dryer??
OscagneTX: I know I cocked up the spelling. “Deladrier” looks right.
AGplusone: Biggest argument I had with Elizabeth Hall in the woman’s panel on thursday at Torcon was that point.
Eflint46312: And if you do that, even pre-Ginny the guy looks like a flaming feminist
KeithWCunningham: true
AGplusone: she cited what she said were a bunch of 1930s writers who she said wrote rounded female characters. Problem was: no one ever heard of them except her.
KeithWCunningham: in Starship Troopers. . . i’m not digging it out to look at the publication date. . . he had women in the military, active service. . . at the time it would have been unthinkable
Eflint46312: Who?
AGplusone: 59
AGplusone: Fred Pohl’s wife. I cannot even remember the names she cited, and damnit, I’m an English major.
AGplusone: I should have heard of at least one of them.
Dehede011: Joe Haldeman wasn’t far behind them. If you look at the old pulp covers I think you can find Female warriors.
Eflint46312: There were undoubtedly _some_, sure. In the history of SF/F, there have been thousands of published writers. But I honestly can’t think of any major ones
Eflint46312: Although I may be overlooking someone
AGplusone: She wasn’t even talking about SF writers, just general fiction.
Kultsi KN: Doc Smith?
heron26h: aargh, wasn’t this at Torcon?
AGplusone: yes
Eflint46312: Oh, the story with _general_ fiction is completely different. SF was incredibly backward in that respect compared to popular literature as a whole
Dehede011: I think you are right, heck Heinlein is supposed to have said in 1956 that only 6 (?) writers were making a living on SF
OscagneTX: I don’t think Doc Smith. It’s been a while since I read it, but his females were mostly “bait” or “rewards” weren’t they?
Eflint46312: Hell, take a look at _movies_ in the 20s and 30s and 40s. The truth is, female characters were more well-rounded in those days that they are in movies today.
AGplusone: but still the writers she came up with from the 30s for ’rounded’ females were obscure …, felt as if I’d dropped in a time warp.
Dehede011: Guys, I have to get off. Some one is attacking my machine.
Dehede011: bye
aggirlj: Isn’t that amazing Eric. I noticed that too.
Dehede011 has left the room.
AGplusone: I’ll concede the movies. With Hepburn, et al.
OscagneTX: attacking his machine? eiw.
Eflint46312: Um. Probably the less said about Doc Smith’s female characters the better. Besides, his main work was later than that
AGplusone: But that was what was remarkable about Hepburn and why she was so very popular … she stepped outside the mold.
DavidWrightSr: “Hot pilot, Yvette Deladrier” p. 148 of the post Verhoaxer version.
Eflint46312: It’s true with popular fiction too. Agatha Christie?
KeithWCunningham: Jane Austen
DavidWrightSr: Dorothy Sayers is my favorite.
Kultsi KN: To have any female characters in a SF story — like you said, Eric, there were hardly any.
Eflint46312: Not really. Barbara Stanwyck — for that matter, Mae West was a real presence
aggirlj: Bette Davis
AGplusone: Same argument with Stanwyck, but West was sui generis.
Eflint46312: And it was always obvious that there was a real brain behind the books
OscagneTX: There were female sf writers back then, weren’t there?
Eflint46312: Oops. I meant “boobs”
aggirlj: lol
KeithWCunningham: back in those days SF was targeted specifically towards teenaged males, though
AGplusone: And movies were in advance and popularized the type. It sold tickets, and writers followed I think.
Eflint46312: Not… many. The first major female SF/F writer I can think of — although I may be missing someone — was C.L. Moore
AGplusone: You’re right about the teen age males. Rocket to the Morgue makes that clear.
Eflint46312: The fact is that SF was an anomaly, and I think that was because it originated out of what you might call an engineers mindset — and engineering in those days was about as exclusively male as a monastery
OscagneTX: Some Heinlein quote is ticking my brain, but it won’t sit still long enough for me to ID it… something about there being several female writers who all used male psuedonyms?
AGplusone: James Tiptree
AGplusone: that was her psuedonym, yes?
Eflint46312: Most female writers in those days used either pseudonyms or simply their initial — C.L. Moore being one obvious example.
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
KeithWCunningham: when did Ursela Le Guin come on the scene? and Norton?
Kultsi KN: Hi, Bill!
BPRAL22169: Le Guin — early to mid sixties.
aggirlj: Hi Bill
OscagneTX: Right, but I think he mentioned names, and for the life of me I can’t remember even where to look for that quote.
AGplusone: Andre Norton, aka Mary Alice Norton. I read her stuff in 54.
starfall2: hi
BPRAL22169: Andre Norton I think about 1949 or so.
BPRAL22169: In SF, anyway.
OscagneTX: howdy, Bill.
BPRAL22169: Hi.
Eflint46312: Norton was on the scene from the 40s — but she actually proves my point. HER stories were almost exclusively male, too. Take a look sometime at those great novels she wrote in the 50s — Star Guard has not a woman in it.
AGplusone: Only were three SF novels by Norton then. Star Guard, Star Mans Son, and Star Rangers.
BPRAL22169: But at the same time, she was writing The Borrowers books
KeithWCunningham: targetting the market audience?
Eflint46312: And the ones who do appear in Star Rangers and Starman’s Son are just walk-ons
aggirlj: Exactly Keith
Eflint46312: Le Guin came later, and she was one of the major influences that
started transforming the whole thing
BPRAL22169: And didn’t she write a series of girls books as Alice Mary North?
Eflint46312: Don’t know.
BPRAL22169: Hard to imagine how she got any librarianing in!
AGplusone: Cleveland was easy …
Eflint46312: The truth is, Andre was starting to write pretty much full time from pretty early in her career
KeithWCunningham: She was one of the exceptions that could.
Eflint46312: I’ve never asked her when exactly she stopped being a librarian, but it’s certainly not as if she spent most of her life doing that
Eflint46312: Of course, it’s been a VERY long and productive life — she’s in her 90s now and still writing — so even a “small” part of that life might have meant spending 15-20 years as a librarian
BPRAL22169: http://www.andre-norton.org/anorton/anlf.shtml
KeithWCunningham: and more power to her 🙂
Eflint46312: Keep in mind that STARMAN’S SON was the first SF novel ever written which sold over a million copies
aggirlj: So it’s safe to say that the lack of strong female characters at that time was editorial more than choice.
fgherman has entered the room.
KeithWCunningham: million copies is still quite an accomplishment now
fgherman: Hellog all
BPRAL22169: http://www.andre-norton.org/anorton/anbio.shtml
OscagneTX: howdy
Kultsi KN: Hi, Felicia!
KeithWCunningham: midlist is around 30-40 thousand isn’t it?
BPRAL22169: That’s the one they’re callng a “detailed” biography.
Eflint46312: I wouldn’t even say it was “editorial”, in the narrow sense that “editors clamped down.” It was more just the whole culture of SF at the time’
Eflint46312: It was a boys club, to be blunt
DenvToday has entered the room.
DenvToday: Hello all.
fgherman: Yeah, I miss those days
OscagneTX: howdy
Eflint46312: And the girls could come into the tree fort — as long as they didn’t talk about girl stuff
AGplusone: http://www.andre-norton.org/books/date.shtml
aggirlj: Hi Ron L
Eflint46312: I don’t miss it at all, frankly
BPRAL22169: Depends on how you mean it — C.L. Moore, Katherine MacLean, Judith merril
AGplusone: for all her writings
BPRAL22169: There were a few women writers, going all the way back to the thirties.
fgherman: I meant the ratio of men to women
AGplusone: “few”
Eflint46312: Oh, that. 🙂 Hmph. I don’t miss that either.
Aurorax13 has entered the room.
OscagneTX: howdy.
DenvToday: I suspect a lot of male writers were in reality nom de plumes used by women.
AGplusone: Hi, Felicia
Eflint46312: I admit, it depends on your perspective
Eflint46312: Some, yes, but not all that many major ones.
BPRAL22169: Science fiction, perhaps, was a boy’s club, but fantasy much less so.
fgherman: It wasn’t until the ‘elfy-welfy’ stuff became popular that a lot more women entered the field
KeithWCunningham: there’s an interesting corollary now. . . there are some SF and F books coming out where the guys only have walk-ons
aggirlj: Dear me!
Aurorax13: Backlash
BPRAL22169: I remember when Marion Zimmer Bradley started writing her “lesbian amazon” Darkover books in the early 70’s.
Eflint46312: Andre Norton/Andrew North, obviously. C.L. Moore. From there, as best as I can recall, you move to writers like E. Mayne Hull
DenvToday: As long as they’re lesbians, that’s fine with me. lol
aggirlj: LOL:-)
BPRAL22169: There are very few woman sf writers in Astounding in the 1940’s — but quite a few in Unknown.
Eflint46312: The thing you have to remember is that fantasy as a _big_ sub-genre didn’t really emerge until the late 60s
AGplusone: Sarah Hoyt is going to die when she finds she missed this chat.
fgherman: The readership of SF has changed too – that used to a boy’s club also
KeithWCunningham: what was responsible for the revised interest in fantasy in the late sixties? I mean, who started shifting things?
Kultsi KN: Yes, this is lots deifferent from several Saturday chats.
fgherman: Tokien
fgherman: Tolkien
DenvToday: Hard SF is still mostly a boy’s club, just from those I know who like it.
Eflint46312: To finish my thread on Hull, she was a genuine writer but not as prominent or influential as Norton or Moore. Neither was Merrill, really — as a writer, anyway
DavidWrightSr: I must point out that most of the time, the majority of people in this discussion are male O:-)
aggirlj: Thank you.
Eflint46312: David, that’s true of “fandom” in general.
BPRAL22169: Hull reminds me that the Arkham House crowd had a couople of prominent women writers — Price?
AGplusone: It was> and whose fault was that? the publishers. Little boys read books written by men, and little girls read books written by women, and babies read books written by alice dogleash.
Eflint46312: Something which I never allow myself to forget, as I write my books
fgherman: Time was it would have been almost exclusively male.
DenvToday: lol Dave
OscagneTX: brb – visiting coke machine.
Eflint46312: The reactions to a writer from “fandom” will not necessarily — in fact, not usually — correspond all that well to the reactions of the general mass audience for SF/F
DenvToday: Say hi for me
BPRAL22169: I dunno — that’s the accepted mythology, but the actual photographs from the 30’s and 40’s show about a 65/35 ratio; not too bad.
DavidWrightSr: The ones that come here certainly make up for any deficient in quantity O:-)
fgherman: Thank you sir
aggirlj: :-*
DenvToday: Has anybody ever run into the fanzine Star Trek stories? Mostly written by women, and many very erotic.
DavidWrightSr: deficient–>deficit
BPRAL22169: I have had that misfortune, Denv.
fgherman: Slash fiction is definitely a fem-phan thing
aggirlj: It’s that toupee that Shatner wears.
BPRAL22169: Apparently there is a whole subgenre of Kirk-Spok erotic stories — written by teenaged girls.
Eflint46312: Um. Yes it is — when you consider that the population was 50/50. 🙂 And how many of those women were coming as dutiful wives, as opposed to fans in their own right? (I don’t know the answer to that, by the way.)
DenvToday: I’m sorry, but Spock and Kirk were not lovers, despite the stories. It was Kirk and Chekov.
starfall2: if you think those are bad… try the ones written about anime characters
Aurorax13: Hi, I’m really new to this I never go into chat rooms so I’m a little lost
Eflint46312: I’ll be back in two minutes. Nature calls, as couth people say
AGplusone:
fgherman: not all of it by teenage girls- a lot of it is written by middle-aged women like myself – I don’t writeit, but I have a contemporary who does
BPRAL22169: Welcome, Aurorax; I thought I didnn’t recognize the handle.
AGplusone:
DenvToday: Dave, it’s the pointy ears. ‘Nuff said.
OscagneTX: B. Ron – the Pepsi machine says “hi”, but the coke machine just ignored me.
fgherman: As well you should
DenvToday: lol
aggirlj: Auroax13, welcome, just hang in there. We’re talking about Heinlein women, in a way.
Aurorax13: I sorta gathered
DavidWrightSr: Do you have a favorite/unfavorite ?
fgherman: He had amazing women in his life, it’s not surprising he has amazing women in his stories
BPRAL22169: Actually, that’s even more to the point: it’s not so much there were few women writers — it’s more that there were few women characters except in stereotyped roles.
DenvToday: I took a Heinlein class in college, taught by a proto-feminist. She was outraged that Heinlein’s women didn’t have contempt for men.
aggirlj: Good God Almighty.
OscagneTX: figures
BPRAL22169: Must have been in the 1970s or early 80’s. the style of things in Feminism changes over the years.
BPRAL22169: That’s a little declasse now.
AGplusone: Maureen had a mild form of amusement for her son, the great Lazarus Long, wasn’t that enough for her?
OscagneTX: My favorite comment so far is still the part of “Rah Rah RAH” where spider addresses feminists.
DenvToday: I pointed out that Heinlein was one of the first to put women on an equal – or superior – professionl competency basis with men. She replied that his women were too compliant to men.
aggirlj: Quote it please.
BPRAL22169: I’m drawing a blank — remind me, will you, Oscagne?
Eflint46312: I’m back. Yeah, that kind of “feminist” reaction to Heinlein tends to get fixed in peoples’ mind as “the” feminist reaction — and it’s actually at least a decade out of date, if not two.
fgherman: 2
BPRAL22169: Yeah — you always have to ask “what feminism? When?”
AGplusone: whose?
Eflint46312: It was part of the tempestuous childhoon of feminism, if you will
Eflint46312: Mutter. ChildhooD
KeithWCunningham: reactionistic – – if that’s a word
BPRAL22169: Hmmm. it woul dhave to be a second childhood.
fgherman: Even from the beginning, real feminism wasn’t about hating men
DenvToday: This was 1977. She was of the “women good, men bad” school.
OscagneTX: Its the part where he addresses “feminists” who say that Heinlein doesn’t write beleivable females. Spider points out how competent and professional and successful they are…
fgherman: Academic Feminism is another story
BPRAL22169: yeah. late 70’s radical separatism.
OscagneTX: Then asks why the feminists can’t believe in women that are competent and professional and successful.
KeithWCunningham: i have a question, Eric
Eflint46312: Academic ANYTHING is a different story’
Eflint46312: What is it?
AGplusone: Academe anything is always three or four generations out of it ….
BPRAL22169: They’re working with different paradigms now — “Theory”
KeithWCunningham: I’ve noticed that most of the top selling SF writers are male, and most of the top selling Fantasy writers are female. . . do you think there’s a gender bias in the readership when it comes to the two branches?
Aurorax13: no just the fans
AGplusone: STill the little boys are good at math and little girls are good at English, you think?
fgherman: And there’s always the exceptions – Lois Bujold for SF, Ray Feist for Fantasy
Eflint46312: Oh, sure. It goes back to what I said earlier. Misty Lackey once put it to me this way. Mind you, she was exaggerating for effect, but the gist of what she said is I think basically true
aggirlj: That’s where I was headed. Women are freer in that side of the brain.
Aurorax13: I am a woman and sometimes I have contempt for some women just becausse they insist on acting like a stereotype
Eflint46312: As follows: “A fan is typical younger, singler, maler. He likes tightly-plotted short novels. He dislikes series. He reads voraciously, almost compulsively, and wants to rush from one story to the next
fgherman: Actually, women have more connections between the 2 lobes, so they are less likely to fixate
KeithWCunningham: Freer side of the brain. . . . scary thought, eh, Eric? 😎
heron26h: It happens, but we just have to ignore it, the women who do the stereotype role are more insecure
Eflint46312: The average reader will tend to be more female, older, married, and reading is something she does a lot but doesn’t have the time to make it a full time avocation
Aurorax13: I work (sadly enough) at a gas station and a lot of women come in and don’t know how to pump gas
Eflint46312: So she wants STORIES she can spend a lot of time in, getting to know and enjoy the characters
fgherman: I didn’t before I did it the first time
Aurorax13: they’re excuse is that they’re women
AGplusone: Haven’t seen many Diana Galbadon (sp?) fans have they?
OscagneTX: “The David Freer side” of the brain?
DenvToday: Keith, men like futuristic machines and exploring new worlds. Women like the interplay of personal relationships found in good fantasy. That’s a gross exageration, of course, but in my experience it’s largely true.
Eflint46312: Obviously, Misty was exaggerating the differences a lot, but she does capture some real truth.
starfall2: i don’t know how to pump gas
BPRAL22169: It’s one of those statistical things.
starfall2: my excuse is that i’m from new jersey
AGplusone: an essence maybe
aggirlj: I like both kinds of writing in one. Technical with some interesting interplay.
Aurorax13: well I’m in MD
BPRAL22169: As a rule of thumb, there is about a 30% overlap for most metrics, compared across gender.
KeithWCunningham: its likely true, given that fantasy sells better, if more readers are women
AGplusone: just as bodice rippers do
Aurorax13: I don’t know any full service stations any wher around
Eflint46312: And the fact is that while fans tend to sneer at fantasy as “boilerplate same-old-same-old,” the average fantasy novel — just as a story — is considerably better written than the average SF novel.
starfall2: here, they all are full service
Aurorax13: I know
Aurorax13: I’ve had my share of NJ customerss
KeithWCunningham: Mike Stackpole had an interesting theory about that, Eric
Aurorax13: doesn’t bother me
KeithWCunningham: only he was talking about the difference between SF/F and mainstream fiction in general
Eflint46312: The thing is that _most_ readers just aren’t that enamored of “original ideas.” They are perfectly happy to get the same basic story — different enough, of course, not to be a clone — as long as it’s told well.
Aurorax13: My point is women from the ages of 16-86 using their gender as an excuse to not know how to do something
DavidWrightSr: What was that comment Heinlein made about women, in particular, women politicians in Magic, Inc. when he was discussing Sally ?, the woman who was trying to help them in the legislature.
fgherman: Glad I’m not *most*readers
DenvToday: It’s always been the characters that appeal most to me in RAH. It isn’t the hard science.
KeithWCunningham: he said it had to do with forcing the writer to create their own world, and making sure everything fit logically together. . . they didn’t have reality to fall back on. . . but were forced to just do more work
KeithWCunningham: so they got better quicker
Eflint46312: Whereas they get bored quickly with a story that might have a dazzlingly original core concept, but whose plot is ramshackle and whose characters are about as distinct as individually interesting as shellfish
QinJingYou has entered the room.
OscagneTX: howdy
QinJingYou: hello all
fgherman: Hello
starfall2: hi
Aurorax13: hi
AGplusone: Invaded by the chinese horde
aggirlj: Hi.
DenvToday: Hiya Qin
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
QinJingYou: A Horde of One 🙂
Kultsi KN: Hi, Dave!
fgherman: Someone like Vernor Vinge has great ideas in his books and good writing & interesting characters
AGplusone: Tell us: welcome from Beijing, David
QinJingYou: Welcome from Beijing and the north China plain.
fgherman: His books seem to do rather well in the marketplace
DenvToday: Eflint, it’s also the BIG ideas in Heinlein that I love. Political, sociological, etc. Again, this is a generalization, but the women love the personal relationships.
Eflint46312: Oh, sure. Everything I’m saying has deliberately had all the nuances stripped out of it. Whine. Look, sorry, but this is a CHAT ROOM — and the software beats up on me if I put in too many words
AGplusone: do . . .
AGplusone: if you’re trying to follow up
AGplusone: and we’ll wait for you.
Eflint46312: There are plenty of exceptions to these “rules,” obviously. But exceptions don’t make the rule. They really don’t.
fgherman: They can point they way – Heinlein was the exception, not the ruel
fgherman: rule
Eflint46312: What I think is starting to happen now, by the way, is that the emphasis in SF is shifting in a “fantasy direction.” Not in terms of the content, obviously, but in terms of the style in which a story is told.
KeithWCunningham: more epic you mean?
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
KeithWCunningham: or less technical?
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
Eflint46312: So, we’ll see. Don’t forget that literary tastes, like any kind of tastes, tend to get fixed and develop an inertia of their own
DenvToday: One more reason I go to Heinlein when I’m stressed — it’s the competence of his characters. In his worlds, average high-school students do what we’d consider graduate work. When I read the newspapers, consider the state of…
DenvToday: …American education, it’s very comforting.
Eflint46312: An example is Dave Weber’s Honor series, which is SF and extremely popular. Despite the military SF trappings, it’s really a big sprawling convoluted “fantasy style” epic
Eflint46312: If you look at the way the story is shaped and told
fgherman: Hornblower in Space
AGplusone: A Hornblower styple series.
AGplusone: d’oh, dollar late again.
fgherman: Alternate history is big right now too
DenvToday: fgherman, Anderson’s Flandry series is a direct homage to Hornblower, isn’t it?
Eflint46312: The Hornblower analogy is WAY overstated, in my opinion. It might have had some validity in the first few books, but certainly not in the majority of them
fgherman: I never read them that way, but it may be true
AGplusone: sure, but it started that way, just as Feintuch’s series did.
OscagneTX: Alternate History is becoming its own sub-genre, isn’t it? I think its pretty much distinct.
QinJingYou: I agree with you Eric, I loved Hornblower, can’t get going on the Honor series
Eflint46312: Yes, and I think the popularity of alternate history is due to the same thing. Compared to the average SF novel, alternate history is going to be shaped more like a fantasy tale in terms of dramatic structure
fgherman: Is ther an average sf novel anymore?
AGplusone: And Aubrey’s and the rest … the metaphore of the endless voyage gets them off where they want to go however.
Eflint46312: Sure. There are tons of them on the shelves. Few of which sell very well.
Eflint46312: Granted, there are also tons of fantasy novels collecting dust on the shelves too.
KeithWCunningham: by the average SF I assume you mean hard SF?
QinJingYou: Good point. Turtledove writes history with fantasy added and is very popular.
BPRAL22169: I think that is more due to what I call “cud chewing’ than to literary structure.
fgherman: It seems that our little genre has broken into many sub-genres
Eflint46312: Never forget that in ANY genre at ANY time, most books sell lousy
KeithWCunningham: space opera sells pretty good – – at least series do for it
Eflint46312: It depends on how you define “hard” SF. I wasn’t actually thinking of “hard” SF, as such.
AGplusone: The Locus article on space opera was interesting Keith
fgherman: Good space opera sells well – well written anything tends to sell well
AGplusone: means romance now …
BPRAL22169: Leinster’s Law versus Sturgeon’s Law.
Eflint46312: Um. Don’t get me started on Locus. The Valley Girls Herald. How the hell do you write a long cover story on “the new space opera” and not even MENTION the Honor series?
KeithWCunningham: it means romance now??
fgherman: Bad writing driving out good writing, and 90% of everything is crap
AGplusone: LOL, I’ll tell Charles if you haven’t yet.
AGplusone: That was what the point made was.
fgherman: It means Charles Brown is the editor
KeithWCunningham: hardly. . .
BPRAL22169: Hasn’t he actually retired now?
Eflint46312: Go ahead. And I’m not the only writer, believe me, who finds Locus’ blatant favoritism annoying as hell.
KeithWCunningham: space opera is SF with a more character oriented bent to it
AGplusone: Yeah, “retired” … I’m sure Charles know it. 🙂
BPRAL22169: Wait a minute — I justhad a mental earthquake over that one.
Eflint46312: Not that I care that much. My books sell just fine, thank you.
KeithWCunningham: less technical, more character. . . I guess more adventure. . . more fun
AGplusone: they posted the article on his website … you’re about correct.
DenvToday: Two words: Star Wars
AGplusone: actually said it’s a little better than SW
AGplusone: not all that negative an argument
fgherman: God, there was a lot of crap on the market after that movie came out
OscagneTX:
fgherman: There’s crap, then there’s a *lot* of crap
DenvToday: Okay, let’s see a show of hands: Who has read the entire Harry Potter series?
fgherman: Me
Aurorax13: I have
DenvToday: Me too
OscagneTX: not I.
fgherman: They’re just fine
heron26h: me
Aurorax13: More than once
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aggirlj: Only one of em
Aurorax13: More than 3 times
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Eflint46312: Why pick on Star Wars or Star Trek? There’s always been a big place for that kind of fiction. Tom Swift’s incredibly multi-multi-volume adventures, anyone? I ate ’em like hotcakes as a teenager
OscagneTX: I guess Bill’s earthquake shook him offline.
heron26h: Tom Swift stories were cool
BPRAL22169: The AOL service in Santa Cruz is so unstable it’s difficult to participate in online events.
OscagneTX: I like both of ’em. I just have to turn off the “physical laws” part of my brain.
fgherman: Media fans – I’m not a fan I *read*the stuff.
aggirlj: Some of that stuff twernt bad.
KeithWCunningham: no reason to pick on Star Wars – – I think if you look at some of the expanded universe star wars novels – – especially the latest batch. . . you’ll find pound for pound they can take on most other books on the market for quality.
QinJingYou: Tom Swift was great, when I was 10. Loved them
KeithWCunningham: its a bias of – – its popular, it must be awful
heron26h: Yeah, 10 is about when I read them
fgherman: I was reading then – most of the new stuff was awful
Aurorax13: If that were true sex would have died out
BPRAL22169: That’s a defining mark of a “pseudo” intellectual.
Aurorax13: in the 60’s
Eflint46312: Well, true. But you have to do that with a lot of SF stories — and that’s been true from the beginning. I really like Murray Leinster, but for all of his reputation as a “hard SF” writer, some of the science..
heron26h: isn’t
DenvToday: Charles Sheffield died recently, didn’t he? I always admired his stuff.
fgherman: I like Doc Smith too, but I don’t pretend it’s great writing
OscagneTX: KWC: I’m the other way ’round on it. If I like it, it doesn’t sell and therefore gets discontinued. Although I’ll sometimes find something after it gets popular. I like those just fine, too.
BPRAL22169: Last year, I think.
Eflint46312: in his stories doesn’t bear close examination. Giant insects? Gee. How do they BREATHE? And exactly how does the mass-volume ratio fit those spindly legs? And…
fgherman: I feel the same way about W.E.B. Griffin
DavidWrightSr: I enjoy Hogan. He is a very ‘hard sf’ writer. Almost makes me believe the stuff he thinks up.
BPRAL22169: Hey, a generation before, Dali had elephants on spindly legs…
AGplusone: See, http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2003/0308/Space%20Opera %20Redefined/Review.htm
OscagneTX: What about Griffin?
fgherman: Dali was a surrealist
Eflint46312: Sure. But he SAID he was a “surrealist.” 🙂
DenvToday: I loved delving through a Sheffield book – I had to have a physics text along side to look things up.
BPRAL22169: Hogan’s prose gives me a pain.
fgherman: He write wonderful delicious pulp
KeithWCunningham: but then who cares if there are giant insects so long as the reader is liking and having fun with what they’re reading?
Eflint46312: Well, yeah, that’s pretty much the way I feel about it.
OscagneTX: Oh, yes. I love his books, but he always has at least one obscenely rich protagonist to make things cushy for the dirt-poor protagonists.
KeithWCunningham: in the end that’s the only litmus test that can account for anything
heron26h: well, in my case if I get jolted out of the trance, I grouch at the author
DenvToday: Bill, his Gentle Giants of Ganymeade is fine writing. His more recent works are deplorable. Unfortunately.
BPRAL22169: “mimesis” is not really mimesis of reality — it’s a mimesis of the contents of the mind.
KeithWCunningham: movies, books – – if i liked it – – it was good
fgherman: I love it, but I don’t think it’s great writing
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Eflint46312: Oops. Folks, I just realized it’s past 6PM and I gotta go. It’s been fun and thanks for inviting me.
fgherman: Howdy
BPRAL22169: I wouldn’t say “fine writing.” It was tolerable, serviceable prose — which is about as good as Hogan gets.
QinJingYou: Thanks for coming, Eric
aggirlj: Hi Geo
OscagneTX: Have a good night, Eric.
fgherman: Bye Eric, good to talk with you again
Eflint46312: You’re most welcome
OscagneTX: Thanks for coming.
georule1861: Howdy.
DenvToday: Hogan’s non-fiction essays have always made me think. I like them.
starfall2: bye
OscagneTX: HOpe to see you around again.
KeithWCunningham: i should be off too
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KeithWCunningham: good evening all
starfall2: bye
OscagneTX: ‘night
fgherman: Good night
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DenvToday: Nighters
aggirlj: By Eric
AGplusone: Hi, Geo
fgherman: God, I love to play devil’s advocate
georule1861: That’s me; clear the room.:-)
Kultsi KN: Hello, Geo!
OscagneTX: howdy, Geo.
starfall2: hi
BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, Hogan’s writing is basically pedestrian.
DenvToday: Which part, fgherman? The devil or the advocate?
OscagneTX: Take the Frankenstein mask off, it scared the guest author away. %^)
fgherman: Never read him, not inclined to start
BPRAL22169: Nothing wrong with the way he puts stories together.
fgherman: Both 🙂
DenvToday: lo
BPRAL22169: I’d say he’s about the most pedestrian published writer in SF — except maybe Barry Longyear.
AGplusone: I don’t think Hogan is that bad, Bill. Enjoyed Operation Prometheus quite a bit.
aggirlj: Things are getting a lot slower on my end. Or we’re all frantically typing
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fgherman: Too many books on my To-be Read Queue
fgherman: I like Barry’s stuff
OscagneTX: Sorry about basically stealing your research for this chat, Geo. I just figured, y’all’ve done the exhaustive work, what could I contribute? %^)
Aurorax13: I don’t have any books on my to be read queue
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BPRAL22169: Well, yeah, I didn’t mean Hogan’s stuff is “bad” — just the writing is mediocre.
DenvToday: Yeah, true. But the first of his work I read was the Ganymeade series. My expectations were raised very high. When I read a lot of his more recent stuff, I didn’t like the writing – even if the ideas were thought-provoking.
fgherman: Not even the new, old Heinlein being released in Jan.?
OscagneTX: whoops… okay… Geo: Sorry about basically stealing your research for this chat. I just figured, y’all’ve done the exhaustive work, what could I contribute? %^)
Aurorax13: Okay except books not yet released
fgherman: The new Stephenson book sounds promising – I really enjoyed Cryptonomicon
fgherman: And I will read anything by Tim Powers
georule1861: Is that why my ears were burning?=-O
BPRAL22169: I didn’t know he had another one coming up — I’ll read anything Stephenson writes.
Aurorax13: doesn’t count ’cause I’m still re-reading Chrome Circle at work tonight
BPRAL22169: I just took a quick count: I’ve got a stack of 37 books in the queue.
fgherman: I like almost anything with a historical background that’s well researched and well written
BPRAL22169: Perhaps that’s not entirely fair, because 20+ of them are Nero Wolfe books.
DavidWrightSr: I enjoy Hogan, but mostly what I was talking about was the way that he pushed ‘hard sf’. He really made his theories very believable to me.
DenvToday: I defy anybody to read Hogan’s latest – “The Legend that was Earth” – without falling asleep. I didn’t need Tylenol PM for a while.
BPRAL22169: I’m afraid L. Neil smith’s latest books are doing that to me, too — though I loved his earlier ones.
DenvToday: David, read his non-fiction essays. He published a book of them. Good stuff.
DavidWrightSr: I am speaking primarily of ‘Thrice in Time’ and ‘The Genesis Machine’
BPRAL22169: Hogan’s books remind me very much of Sagan’s SF. CONTACT could have been written by Hogan.
aggirlj: It’s been almost 3 hours, I’ve got to go now. Enjoyed talking with all of you. Bye for now.
DavidWrightSr: Although I liked the earlier of the Giants series
Aurorax13: (silly question) does anyone have any suggestions (I’ve read most of Heinlein, Lackey, McCaffery, and LK Hamilton)
DenvToday: Neil Smith has turned into a political advocate. I agree with much of his politics, but it’s become too obvious, and a bit tiresome.
OscagneTX: g’night, Jane.
fgherman: And a really good writer will encourage you to goback to their primary sources of inspiration – Twain for Heinlein, Austenfor Bujold
DenvToday: Night Jane
BPRAL22169: H. Beam Piper. Edgar Pangborn. Zenna Henderson.
fgherman: Night Jane
Kultsi KN: Nite, Jane
starfall2: bye
BPRAL22169: Greg Egan.
aggirlj: Bye K and all.:-)
starfall2: actually, i’m going to be leaving too
BPRAL22169: Walter Jon Williams.
fgherman: Bye
DenvToday: I read Federation by Piper. Only one of his books I’ve read.
starfall2: i’ve been doing homework all along anyway…
starfall2: bye
Aurorax13: g’nite
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BPRAL22169: Oh, my: you’ve got a treat in store for you. See if you can find the three Fuzzy books.
fgherman: I read all the Piper books
BPRAL22169: Wilmar Shiras: Children of the Atom.
fgherman: All the Pangborn I could find
DavidWrightSr: Too bad Eric has gone. Piper’s books would seem to be good candidates for the Baen Library.
fgherman: Send him an email
OscagneTX: He takes suggestions at the librarian address.
DenvToday: I think the first SF I ever read was Eric Frank Russell.
BPRAL22169: Is Jerry Pournelle still in charge of the Piper estate?
BPRAL22169: Which book of Russell’s?
DenvToday: I was about 12 at the time…several books of short stories, as I recall.
DenvToday: Lots of robots. lol
fgherman: Doesn’t anybody here read Rosenberg?
BPRAL22169: The Jay Score stories?
OscagneTX: I think Larry Niven is the first sf I ever read. I didn’t read Heinlein until after he’d died, moresthepity.
fgherman: 🙂
Aurorax13: sorry I have to go cook dinner
fgherman: Good night
DenvToday: Bill, I’m not sure. I’m sure he’s worth going back to. That’ll be next on my list.
OscagneTX: g’night
BPRAL22169: That enough new suggestions?
DavidWrightSr: Felicia. I have read some of them
Aurorax13: Yes
BPRAL22169: The fuzzy stories, Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen.
fgherman: Just teasing
georule1861: Piper Rocks.
DavidWrightSr: I know O:-)
DenvToday: Oscagne, RAH was my personal guru – and not for SIASL. I couldn’t eat for a week after he died.
BPRAL22169: I still think Piper wrote THE paradigmatic science fiction story.
Aurorax13: Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle are the only names I already knew
DavidWrightSr: Which was that Bill?
BPRAL22169: “Omnilingual”
georule1861: If he hadn’t killed himself. Was just getting to the place in the market where he could write longer, with more character development. I’m very annoyed with him about it.
fgherman: Alfie Bester
DavidWrightSr: Ah yes. As a linguist myself, I really enjoyed that one.
fgherman: I love his stuff
BPRAL22169: Forgot to mention William Gibson
fgherman: I wish you had continued to do so
Aurorax13: I’ve gotten into quite a bit of vampire books lately
Aurorax13: tired of it need to think again
DenvToday: Gibson must be pleased to know he’s changed our language.
BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, Piper didn’t know he was getting established — he was being vampirized by his ex-wife and agent.
georule1861: I’ve been OCRing (And will publish on CD soon) a book I would very much like to know if RAH read.
BPRAL22169: What’s that?
georule1861: It would have been on school and library shelves when he was in grade school
DavidWrightSr: Although, I thought the reasoning for the communication in ‘Naudsonce’ was kind of flaky
georule1861: and longer. Probably still on shelves in Missouri.
georule1861: Published by the Missouri Division of the United Daughters of the Confederacy in 1913 (I think, would have
BPRAL22169: I loved his retelling of the Sepoy Mutiny.
georule1861: to check). Called Reminiscenses of the Women of Missouri During the Sixties. It is filled with
georule1861: Heinlein Women on the one hand
georule1861: and a teeth-grating nostalgia for Slavery.
fgherman: Gotta go get dinner
BPRAL22169: I bet if he read it, it woul dhave been in 1971 and 1972 when he was preparing for TEFL. His part of Missouri were very no-nonsense UNION
fgherman: It”s been a pleasure all
OscagneTX: g’night
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DenvToday: fgherman, night. Good to see you.
georule1861: You pointing at KC or Butler, Bill?
georule1861: Certainly his family was; all the Germans were.
BPRAL22169: They are only 60 miles apart. Even General Order 10 wasn’t able to shake that up.
QinJingYou: and I have to go get breakfast. See y’all later. Thanks for arranging, Oscagne
OscagneTX: No problem. A pleasure.
OscagneTX: Have a good day.
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BPRAL22169: The three counties on the Kansas Border were involved in the civil war for a long time before 1860
georule1861: 11. Western MO was very Rebel outside the major cities.
georule1861: That’s why there was an Order 11 in the first place.
DenvToday: Bill, I’m going to the Denver Public Library site after this. I’ll read more of Piper, and I’ll look for Omnilingual. I’ll also get some Eric Frank Russell. I’ll try to see why I loved him as a kid.
georule1861: Also OCRing the novel “Order 11″ at the moment, btw.
BPRAL22169: I think, though I haven’t tried to map this, that the sympathies went with the markets — KC and environs were involved in the Cattle markets.
DavidWrightSr: ‘Omnilingual’ is in his ‘Federation’ book.
BPRAL22169: I think you’ll really enjoy Piper.
DavidWrightSr: I agree.
DenvToday: I have it somewhere in my library…I read it in the early 80’s. I’ll look for it tonight.
georule1861: I think the nostalgia represented by books like this where he grew up was a big part of his essential
BPRAL22169: Wasn’t it also in Campbell’s PROLOG TO ANALOG anthology? That was a darned fine anthology.
georule1861: pessimism on ever getting rid of slavery entirely. When you have sweet little blue-haired
georule1861: ladies sighing for the good ole days when the darkies were looked after by the benign maternalism of the lady
georule1861: of the manse.
Aurorax13: good night all I need to find out what my five year old wants for dinner
BPRAL22169: Believe me, I’ve run across more sweet little blue-haired bigots mouthing off in Beverly Hills than ever I did in Missouri.
DenvToday: Night Aurorax
DavidWrightSr: Night Melissa
Aurorax13: anyone know the sign for chili?
OscagneTX: g’night
DenvToday: Um….”Hormel” is morse code?
DenvToday: in
Kultsi KN: Like in ASL, Aurorax?
AGplusone: Well, Oscagne, what’s our next topic and meeting date?
georule1861: More women spies and housewifes staring down gun barrels unflinchingly than you can shake a stick at in here too.
OscagneTX: I’m looking at about a month to a month + a week.
AGplusone: [Get Rufo to propose one and moderate it ….]
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OscagneTX: Dr. Rufo is going to email me a couple topic suggestions. One we’ve already talked about a bit..
OscagneTX: is RAH affinity for circular concepts.
OscagneTX: Ouroborous…
OscagneTX: Bootstraps…
OscagneTX: etc.
OscagneTX: And he said he’d be stimulator for the pre-chat discussion, but that he probably won’t be able to make the actual chats.
DenvToday: Have we ever discussed RAH’s titles? I’ve always found them fascinating. My fave is “Gentlemen, Be Seated.” Did I get that right?
OscagneTX: I believe so.
DavidWrightSr: Titles and Quotes. That would make a good one I think. Might also include some of the short pre-chapter paragraphs he had in a lot of his books.
BPRAL22169: ISTR that was a compromise title.
DenvToday: People usually don’t think of RAH when they say funny, but I always was fond of his humor.
Kultsi KN: How many of the titles did evolve quite a bit in the process of publishing?
OscagneTX: That’s a good topic. I think we’d need some input from the folks who know for sure when his titles were changed editorily.
BPRAL22169: Most of them — say about 70%.
AGplusone: Sounds like a lead off post from Bill … hehehe
DavidWrightSr: A good deal of that would be in RAH:ARC, I would think
BPRAL22169: I found out something I didnt know at all in that line just this past week. TCWWTW was originally titled “The Reluctant Knight.”
BPRAL22169: Right up to submission time.
georule1861: He did not have the golden ear for titles generally, methinks.
DavidWrightSr: And Bill could fill in where it was not. See. He proved my point
OscagneTX: That fits. Did he change it or have it changed by the publisher?
BPRAL22169: He did — TCWWTW was typed on a 3×4 sticky address label, which has come off over the last 18 years.
OscagneTX: That’s… fascinating. These days the author would just make a change in the computer and print up a new cover.
BPRAL22169: He could have, too — the ms. is on tractor paper.
OscagneTX: Ah.
BPRAL22169: I’m scanning all the ms. holdings.
OscagneTX: *drool* %^)
BPRAL22169: No indication of why he chose to do it this way — perhaps it was a very last minute-change.
OscagneTX: So, unless anyone has any further suggestions or comments about RAH’s Heroines, shall we adjourn?
DavidWrightSr: Some people have all the fun :-[
DavidWrightSr: jjj
BPRAL22169: Oh, yeah: you sit in a carrel in a university library all day feeding 20+ year old manuscripts into a scanner.
DenvToday: I must be going. She Who Must Be Obeyed has informed me it’s time for dinner.
DenvToday: Night all.
OscagneTX: good night.
georule1861: Hey, Bill –I do that without the grant!
Kultsi KN: Nite!
georule1861: Tho at home.
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DavidWrightSr: Are you running them through OCR or just making images?
AGplusone: M/we adjourn. Thanks Joe.
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georule1861: Back to editing Caroline Abbot Stanley OCR. Ciao.
OscagneTX: No problem. We can end the official deal and just BS or talk about Geo ‘n’ Bill’s work or whatever.
OscagneTX: g
OscagneTX: g’night
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DavidWrightSr: Ok. Log officially closed at 7:45 P.M. EDT
Final End of Discussion Log
