Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
Saturday 05-12-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT
Guest Author: L. Neil Smith
Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
rjjusu has entered the room.
rjjusu: You logging?
DavidWrightSr: Greetings. Looks like we are early. Yes
rjjusu: Okay. I thought I’d show up and get myself settled in, then wait for the Seventh Continental Congress to start….
DavidWrightSr: I know what you mean.
DavidWrightSr: You are Randy Jost?
rjjusu: I reread The Probability Broach last night, and picked up Forge of the Elders a little while ago, but don’t think I can finish it before the official start of today’s activities.
rjjusu: Yes, I am.
DavidWrightSr: Thought I remembered that
rjjusu: Newly relocated from Las Cruces, NM to Logan, UT.
rjjusu: Newly being a somewhat relative term.
E1Nei1 has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Neil.
E1Nei1: Howdy! I signed on early ’cause I wasn’t sure I could do it right again.
DavidWrightSr: You got it right
E1Nei1: Guess so.
rjjusu: You did it well, and without a government permit, no less.
DavidWrightSr: We don’t need no stinking permits
E1Nei1: No less. Should be a couple of my friends along at some point.
ddavitt has entered the room.
rjjusu: I reread the Probability Broach last night – some excellent historical references buried in there.
ddavitt: Hi everyone
E1Nei1: Thanks. Hi, Jane.
rjjusu: Hi Jane!
ddavitt: Sad day; just heard about Douglas Adams when I phoned my mum in England
E1Nei1: What about him?
DavidWrightSr: He just died.
ddavitt: Did he get as big in the US as he did in the UK?
ddavitt: Only 49 or so…
E1Nei1: I expect so.
rjjusu: What happened?
E1Nei1: His stuff was on PBS here.
ddavitt: Heart attack I think
E1Nei1: It happens. I had two when I was 47
rjjusu: Comes of pondering 42, too much. He will be missed. There’s not enough humor in SF these days, unless you count the unintentional type.
ddavitt: We were a happy house before that; David’s football ( soccer) team won the FA Cup; Liverpool
E1Nei1: All better now.
ddavitt: Ah well…
ddavitt: Glad to hear that Neil
ddavitt: Holt Rankin and Pratchett are our favourites
ddavitt: Though they all have a dark edge to them sometimes
E1Nei1: My daughter’s first computer game was Addams’ _Starship Titanic_.
rjjusu: Neil, you might want to BOLD your type, so it is easier for Ginny to read.
ddavitt: Couldn’t get into that book though.
E1Nei1: Right.
ddavitt: Actualy, tho i loved the first HHGTTG stuff the last book was terrible
ddavitt: Dirk Gently books were good
E1Nei1: Yeah.
rjjusu: The Infocom game was pretty good also, if you ever ran across that one.
ddavitt: No, not heard of that one
rjjusu: Much like the Zork games, but followed HHGttG pretty well. Adams was quite involved in it, and made sure it went true to the story.
ddavitt: The books were very English; does that help or hinder in the US market?
rjjusu: Depends on the story, I think.
E1Nei1: Depends on the reader.
ddavitt: I mean, did you all get the Ford Prefect joke?:-)
EBATNM has entered the room.
ddavitt: Hi there
rjjusu: One of my favorite writers was Eric Frank Russell – always liked his stuff.
EBATNM: hello
ddavitt: Know the name…not read any
EBATNM:
E1Nei1: I know about the Ford, but I was married for 6 years to a woman who lived in Engl;and for 12.
ddavitt: That would help
E1Nei1: Russell always seemed to write to an American audience. Good stuff.
rjjusu: I think a lot of people over here like Pratchett also.
ddavitt: I’ll look out for it
E1Nei1: Robert LeFevre claimed to have converted Russell to libertarianism.
ddavitt: We( that’s David and I) read him when no one knew him. Glad to see our good taste viindicated !
EBATNM: Rumor hath it that Russell’s wife complained mightily that he was writing that trashy “Sci-Fi” stuff.
rjjusu: Yes, I was glad that EFR found a pretty ready audience. I know Alan Dean Foster appreciated what EFR wrote.
E1Nei1: Always liked “Plus X”.
rjjusu: I like the Jay Score stories, also.
E1Nei1: Yes!!
ddavitt: He is a very nice man. Did David’s uncle a favour; he was terminally ill and Pratchett sent him an advance copy of his latest book so he could read it.
E1Nei1: Advance copy — tried the same thing with Rowling for a kid with cancer. Her agent was an absolute jerk.
ddavitt: Sad that she probably never got to see that request
E1Nei1: Right.
ddavitt: Before we start, can I just do a bit of chat business?
EBATNM: ElNeil – do you happen to know what happened to Robert LeFevre’s personal library? He had a copy of MIAHM inscribed, by Heinlein “To Professor La Paz”.
ddavitt: I think it would be a good idea to have a break in the summer, any thoughts on this?
KultsiKN has entered the room.
ddavitt: The Saturday chats will get very hard for me to attend.
ddavitt: Hi Kultsi
EBATNM: since I seem to miss about every other chat it’s “macht’s nichts” to me
DavidWrightSr: I could use it.
KultsiKN: Hello all!
ddavitt: Just discussing a summer break Kultsi
ddavitt: I think we have had them in the past?
KultsiKN: Can’t say
ddavitt: Unless someone wants to take over hosting Saturdays?
E1Nei1: Could somebody invite Ron — DenvToday — in? I don’t know how, and he’s having trouble.
KultsiKN: Still, suits me
ddavitt: And possibly change the time to suit Europeans better?
ddavitt: Sure
ddavitt: Says he’s not available
KultsiKN: Denv’s not online
SAcademy has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny.
E1Nei1: I’m talking to him now. Page won’t respond to him.
ddavitt: Hi Ginny
SAcademy: ello all.
E1Nei1: Hello, Ginny.
ddavitt: Gremlins again I see
KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny.
ddavitt: Maybe he could reboot?
SAcademy: Hi Kultsi, how’s everything in Finland today?
KultsiKN: Sunny and warm, thank you.
SAcademy: Spring has come?
KultsiKN: At last, yes!
ddavitt: So, would an earlier chat be good for you Kultsi?
SAcademy: Good we’ve been having thunder showers here.
ddavitt: You, Francesco and Sean are about the only regular non US side of the Atlantic people who come to this chat
KultsiKN: Well, midnight Saturday is not impossible, but an earlier time would, of course, be better.
ddavitt: Well, it’s getting hard for me on a Sat; Thursday is no problem
ddavitt: Now I have lauren on the floor next to me crying…as david is mending the car
ddavitt: Thursday’s both children are in bed which is peaceful:-)
ddavitt: Well, think about it folks.
ddavitt: OK, shall we start the chat then?
ddavitt: Anyone have a question who wasn’t at the first chat?
DavidWrightSr: I’ll put out a request to my mailing list to see if a better time or break is preferred. I’ve done something to change my font and I don’t know what it is!
rjjusu: I’m seeing Ron now, but the software won’t let me invite him. Anyone else?
ddavitt: I still don’t see him on my buddy list
KultsiKN has left the room.
ddavitt: It does look different Dave
rjjusu: David, go to View and Edit Chat Preferences
DenvToday has entered the room.
DenvToday: Hello all!
ddavitt: Neil, I’ll kick off with a question then; which Heinlein character appeals to you the most and why?
ddavitt: Glad you made it Ron
DenvToday: Thanks 🙂
rjjusu: Then select General to change font.
E1Nei1: Hi, Ron!
DenvToday: Hi Neil!
E1Nei1: Answer …
E1Nei1: It’s very hard to choose. Probably Manny or the Prof.
ddavitt: So i guess that answers the favourite book question too….
ddavitt: But they are very different characters?
ddavitt: Prof knows what he’s doing and is in charge. mannie is more of a pawn
E1Nei1: Yeah, but that’s not my favorite book. Door into Summer is, I think.
rjjusu: I disagree. A true pawn has no choice, and Mannie did make a choice.
ddavitt: Prof sees himself as a type of libertarian I suppose but does mannie?
DenvToday: You’ve got to admit, RAH is one of the first to write about nudist camps.
E1Nei1: You could be right, Ron!
ddavitt: Doesn’t Pro describe himself as a rational anarchist?
rjjusu: But you can agree on a cause, with very different philosophical backgrounds. I think Mannie had the Laissez-faire attitude, without the intellectual underpinnings. He just knew what worked for him.
ddavitt: I like the inventions in Door; a man who concentrates on making housework easier is my kind of man!
ddavitt: And Pete is a great cat
E1Nei1: That’s a good descrition. It’s complicated for me, because I knew LeFevre. Very interesting man.
rjjusu: Auto Lauren feeder???
ddavitt: Are you a cat person neil? Most Heinlein readers are but I don’t know if that’s a coincidence or not
ddavitt: Cool!
E1Nei1: Definite cat person. Have two at the moment.
DenvToday: RAH was precient in Door Into Summer. Products are designed today in much the same way he described more than 40 years ago.
ddavitt: But we’re not there yet on some of them…
ddavitt: The picture page on alt fan heinlein has us and our cats and children…
ddavitt: looking forward to seeing Snowy when it gets updated Ginny
KultsiKN has entered the room.
ddavitt: Welcome back
DenvToday: Hello Kults
E1Nei1: I think my second favorite RAH book is _Double Star_
KultsiKN: Thx, Jane. Network probs, I think. Real gremlins.
ddavitt: I find that a sad story because Lorenzo gets lost
ddavitt: He becomes someone else…
rjjusu: Neil, I like that one very much, especially taken in concert with Magic, Inc. Both show some great insight into political processes…
ddavitt: Tragic sacrifice
DenvToday: Neil, remember the movie “Dave” a few years back? They owe RAH royalties. Of course, The Prisoner of Zenda came first. As did The Prince and the Pauper.
EBATNM has left the room.
rjjusu: File off those serial numbers…..
DenvToday: lol rjj. Exactly.
E1Nei1: It’s the Tribble Effect, Ron.
DenvToday: I’m glad you took the Trouble to point that out.
ddavitt: Groan!
DenvToday: There is no pun too low. My personal motto.
DavidWrightSr: Old chinese philosopher One Pun Low
rjjusu: A punishing one it is.
DenvToday: lol
EBATNM has entered the room.
DenvToday: wb EB
rjjusu: Neil, how does one stay a libertarian and avoid the trap of “logical extremes”? How do you decide which tightwire to walk and which to avoid?
E1Nei1: Most people regard me as pretty extreme. I take moderation in moderation.
ddavitt: “Moderation is for monks…”
DenvToday: Personally, I find you consistent. Moderation in politics means aggression against innocents.
E1Nei1: I do pick my battles, though. I concentrate a lot on the politics of self-defense
rjjusu: What part is the extreme part? I didn’t see too much extremism in The Proabability Broach
ddavitt: You seem to take the gun ownership issue very seriously..is that something you stress in your fiction?
E1Nei1: It’s too extreme for a lot of folks. You must be a peron of principle.
E1Nei1: Yes, Jane. I do.
rjjusu: The golden rule (BOTH versions) is pretty mainstream.
ddavitt: Is it useful to have a vehicle ( your books) for expressing your POV?
ddavitt: Do you feel it would compromise you to write to a more general audience? Be more mainstream?
rjjusu: Don’t forget that POV also stands for “Privately” Owned Vehicle.
E1Nei1: Hmmm …
ddavitt: I don’t mean write something you don’t beleive in, as Heinlein had to with red planet, but just tone down the message?
E1Nei1: I guess I cold water down what I write and make more money. Won’t happen, though. I started writing expressly to push my politics. People ask me to tone down all the time. I quote Russell: “I won’t!”
DavidWrightSr: When you mentioned Admiral Heinlein in our discussion Thursday, it got me to thinking. How does a setup as in TPB get professional military. Seems that would be difficult?
rjjusu: The power of No.
ddavitt: I can respect that decision, though I probably don’t agree with some of your stances on issues.
E1Nei1: It’s easier to get professional military in a free market economy. It’s easier to get everything.
rjjusu: Depends on you definition of professional military. I consider myself a professional military man, though I have been in the reserves the last 12 years. If there is a need, I will be there.
rjjusu: I think your real question is how is there a professional military if you can question the authority above you.
ddavitt: Like our Home Guard in WW2?
DavidWrightSr: My impression was that most people in TPB accepted NO authority above them. Was I wrong?
DenvToday: rjj, if you enter a military organization freely, knowing that you agree to obey its authority (within limits), then there’s no inconsistency.
ddavitt: That is a theme that ran through farnham’s Freehold and Number of the Beast; not arguing with the Captain
rjjusu: Yes, Jane. The real essence of leadership is leading, not forcing.
E1Nei1: Ron’s saying it well.
EBATNM: Also StarShip Troopers, when one could quit at any time.
ddavitt: Seemed hard for strong willed individualists to come to terms with
KultsiKN: It IS a hard lesson 🙂
ddavitt: But as you say, a god leader compels obedience through being right
rjjusu: If you surrender authority to another, due to their greater knowledge, expertise, skill or vision, it is still a conscious choice, backed up by your own authority.
ddavitt: a sensible person recognises this and obeys through choice
E1Nei1: To a limit, of course.
ddavitt: as with laws…?
E1Nei1: Say, folks, I have a friend trying to get in …
DavidWrightSr: Something like what I said in my essay on Rational Anarchy, I would guess.
ddavitt: Screen name?
E1Nei1: Is there some way to help him?
rjjusu: And that gets back to my original question – how do you set the boundaries in a “rational” way?
E1Nei1: The site says it’s under construction.
ddavitt: I can invite him if we know his screen name
E1Nei1: kmurphy165
DavidWrightSr: Done
DenvToday: I prefer the “military” of TPB. Ordinary people became outraged, banded together, and contributed their resources to go off and fight.
ddavitt: OK
ddavitt: Me too; he will feel overwhelmed:-)
SAcademy: It says he’s not available.
KMurphy165 has entered the room.
ddavitt: Welcome!
DenvToday: Howdy KM.
E1Nei1: Hey, Karl!
rjjusu: Welcome to the asylum
SAcademy: Good evening.
KMurphy165: Well, better late than never, I guess. Must have donated the correct quantitiy of blood.
EBATNM: And what is the difference between “Ordinary people” and a lynch mob?
ddavitt: We are looking at the military in a libertarian state…aren’t we?
ddavitt: What boundaries do you mean Randy?
ddavitt: Legal ones?
DavidWrightSr: Denv. I think that is a nice ideal, but I don’t really believe that it would work in RL.
DenvToday: EB, the difference is that free people will not be at the mercy of any state. They will be armed.
DavidWrightSr: Not for things like invasion etc.
rjjusu: Maybe in a libertarian state, a military is an oxymoron, because everyone is responsible for their own defense, and banding together for self-defense is nothing more thatn enlightened self-interest.
E1Nei1: Boundaries: any decent society is rooted in the notion of private property rights, which includes boundary theories. As to the military discussion, the same rule holds as with individuals: you may not _iniitiate_ force.
ddavitt: An army made of individuals acting as they see fit seems like a recipe for disaster
DenvToday: David, I disagree. Remember Clinton’s little political diversion in Serbia a couple years ago? Instead of our Air Force bombing civilians, why not mercenaries?
rjjusu: Jane, my question has to do with trying to seek a balance. Most philosophical ideas founder when taken to their logical extreme. Then someone says “See, it doesn’t work!” throwing out the baby with the bath water.
EBATNM: (}
DenvToday: A private enterprise would not be paid–would not retain customers–if they didn’t do a good job teaching kids. Government schools take your money at gunpoint (i.e. taxes), then deliver a third-rate service.
ddavitt: Not as freely maybe but it is possible
ddavitt: Well, my child is getting an excellent education so far; i volunteered in her class so i saw what was going on
ddavitt: maybe Canada is different though
DavidWrightSr: That’s the only way you will continue to insure that. Don’t assume at any point that they are doing a good job.
KMurphy165: Remember, coporations are creatures of the state and by design are not designed to be efficient. The megabuck corporate CEO is a statist bureacrat in different clothes.
ddavitt: I plan to go back to volunteering when lauren is a little older; very rewardeing and reassuring
ddavitt: hand on parents can do a lot to address problems in schools
ddavitt: hands on I mean’ people who want to get involved. Apathy causes most of the problems.
DenvToday: The government schools teach to the level of the slowest child in any class. The government schools spend their time teaching environmentalism, multi-culturalism, diversity, feminism and socialism. They spend precious little time on hard subjects.
KMurphy165: I have 2 children that are home schooled and 2 who is going through the public schools and 1 who has just graduated college. There are marked differences between the education received and the results are remarkably clear
rjjusu: Jane, I don’t think the issue is whether your child can get a good education in any given public school. Rather, should that be the only choice, by government edict, when there is no real accountability in the short run – the short run being defined by the time it takes to allow your child to fall behind what they are capable of, as opposed to what test they are preparing for.
ddavitt: If you hassle a governemnt ( YOUR governemnt remember) then you can make it do what you want it to. Within reason.
ddavitt: Why is it the only choice?
EBATNM: If and Only If you got the votes.
DenvToday: Jane, the government belongs to 51 people out of a hundred. The other 49 have no say.
ddavitt: Poor people don’t have the options that the rich people do. That may not be fair but it is a fact. How is that the govt’s fault?
rjjusu: But the assumption is that it is my (your) government, when it is the government of those that exert enough influence to keep it there, according to the rules that have allowed it to form or exist.
ddavitt: Ron, so many people don’t vote that could; that’s the real shame.
rjjusu: True, Jane. But why don’t they vote?
KMurphy165: “If voting could REALLY change thinge, it would be illegal”
E1Nei1: There would be no poverty in America without the government to create it.
DenvToday: Jane, I disagree. A large number of people refuse to validate the government by playing by its rules, i.e. voting.
ddavitt: If everyone who could vote did, i think there would be a change
ddavitt: Stupid…it’s the only game in town
ddavitt: Use the sytem, don’t ignore it. Head in the sand doesn’t work
KMurphy165: Casting a vote is like betting on a fixed horse race. The results are predetermined.
ddavitt: By whom?
ddavitt: I agree gerrymandering is a problem…
DenvToday: Jane, trying to bypass the gunpoint of government is not putting your head in the sand.
ddavitt: What is it then?
ddavitt: How does it help?
DenvToday: It is trying to find freedom in an unfree world. (Sorry Neil.)
ddavitt: Do you really think the govt cares?
rjjusu: I did like the idea of None of the Above being president in TPB. Many times that is the best choice of the fixed number running.
ddavitt: mybe it is my different cultural background that is creating the gulf here…I’m not being belligerent; I am really interested.
ddavitt: Before you all start throwing things at me 🙂
DenvToday: rjj, the most appealing aspect of “government” in the North American Confederachy is that not one person in a thousand knew who the president was!
rjjusu: Consider presidential debates – who decides who gets to speak? In the immortal words of Reagan, “I paid for this microphone” Golden rule, ‘B’ version.
DavidWrightSr: Jane. It’s a hard concept to grasp when you are not used to it. I know that I had a hard time with it.
EBATNM: Basic rule of Life: You mostly get what you pay for.
rjjusu: Right, Andy, and that is part of what is wrong these days. When we buy things, we are not always paying the true cost, because costs have been hidden, shifted, or ignored. If we paid the real price for everything we bought, you can bet that our spending patterns would change.
DenvToday: rjj, good point. Most people don’t realize that no corporation ever paid a penny in tax–they collect taxes. They’re simply built into the price of everything we buy.
KMurphy165: Tom Clancy once said words to the effect that American Government is inherently wastefull and inefficient. Americans should be gratefull they don’t get *all* the government they pay for.
E1Nei1: Actually, Will Rogers said that.
KMurphy165: Thanks. Middle Age CRS syndrome
DenvToday: There was a news story yesterday that something like 50% of all IRS employees spend their work time surfing the web and playing computer games. I cheered!
ddavitt: Why?
rjjusu: Lets have a CRS telethon! Pick a ribbon color. That will solve our problems! Yeah, right.
EBATNM: We need to increase that number!
DenvToday: I say buy them all Nintendos!
DavidWrightSr: Actually, Denv. there could be something to that argument that *we* don’t pay taxes either, we just collect them from our employer and pass them on. No, I guess that would be true only if we could raise our salaries whenever our taxes went up 🙂
ddavitt: You are paying their wages to play and that makes you happy? I don’t get that
rjjusu: If they’re playin’ we’re not pay’in
rjjusu: crudely put.
ddavitt: As an ex civil servant I have to take issue with that
DenvToday: Hmmm…David, I’ll have to think about that one.
ddavitt: If they’re not working, your tax refund will take longer to process
KMurphy165: I’m an ex civil servant and I find that 50% in my experience is surprisingly low.
ddavitt: Plus, their moral dishonesty is disturbing
rjjusu: Only if you allow them to have the “excess”, which most people do, out of fear.
ddavitt: Gosh, that sounds priggish:-)
DenvToday: It also means they’re committing fewer outrages (audits, confiscating bank accounts, real estate, etc)
SAcademy: Thunder. Have to shut down.
SAcademy has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: So long Ginny.
DenvToday: I’m so sorry. Bye SA 🙂
EBATNM: Withholding was a “temporary War-Time measure”. World War II that is.
ddavitt: Are these outrages illegal? If not, then they’re something your legally elected govt lets them do
DavidWrightSr: These outrages are *legal* that is the problem.
ddavitt: And you all say i go quickly?
DenvToday: I’ll remind you that slavery was once legal. Press gangs would roam the seas “legally.”
ddavitt: And concerned voters stopped that
E1Nei1: “If not, then they’re something your legally elected govt lets them do” I never authorized them to do anything but crawl off somewhere and dies a slow, painful death, Jane.
KultsiKN: Jane, you _do_ go quickly.
ddavitt: pressure groups, lobbysists, even non voters ( women) got it changed
rjjusu: More accurately, Congress enacts laws that don’t pass semantic muster, then turn the mess over to unelected bureaucrats to interpret as they see fit. Then both can wash their hands of the resulting mess.
DenvToday: Actually no. It took bloody war to stop it.
ddavitt: I always hang on a second or two so you can start crying and begging me to stay!
DenvToday: lol
ddavitt: Not in the Uk it didn’t!
EBATNM: In the US. It was peacefully outlawed in the UK
ddavitt: Quite
DavidWrightSr: Well, they had our precedent to think about, I bet. 🙂
ddavitt: maybe you should all move to britain:-):-):-)
EBATNM: and the Royal Navy was instructed to intercept slave ships in the Atlantic
ddavitt: Wilberforce; that name rings a bell
E1Nei1: Do not believe that the war between the states had anything to do with slavery. It didn’t/ And more people were enslaved afterward than before.
DenvToday: Jane, it’s simply an outlook on life. I don’t believe anybody, even if it’s 51% of my neighbors, has the right to confiscate my wealth at gunpoint and control what I put in my body–privided that I’m not harming others.
DavidWrightSr: I agree, Neil.
EBATNM: How does one go “Pip-Pip” with a stiff upper lip over the Internet?
ddavitt: I studeied that war; it had a multitude of causes
DenvToday: provided
E1Nei1: Lincoln “freed the slaves” only in states he didn’t control. Meanwhile, the capital building was being rebuilt — by slaves.
ddavitt: At gunpoint? Who?
E1Nei1: Jane, you studied propaganda.
E1Nei1: Did they tell you Jeff Davis was an abolitionist?
E1Nei1: Or that northern troops seized slaves and kept them that way to work for the north?
ddavitt: Err..how can you say that Neil? You don’t know what my teachers/sources were.
E1Nei1: I know what the establishment teaches — socialist drivel.
ddavitt: My thesis was on your war with Mexico…now that was interesting
E1Nei1: Did they teach you what I asked about?
ddavitt: Jeff Davis/ Don’t recall exactly.
ddavitt: And it was in 1983…memeory not that good
E1Nei1: Did they teach you that Lincoln made 15,000 antiwar northerners _disappera_?
E1Nei1: disappear.
DenvToday: RAH mentions the Mexican-American war in Tunnel in the Sky, as an example of a war of aggression. Ours.
ddavitt: it was IMO
DavidWrightSr: I call that 1860-65 thing, The War of Yankee Aggression.
ddavitt: No Neil, I don’t remember that. remember tho; English university, no axe to grind in particular
DavidWrightSr: I’m from Georgia 🙂
E1Nei1: I could take the opposite view on the Mexican War, but I’m not sure I can type fast enough.
ddavitt: i type. press enter and the discussion has whizzed on:-)
ddavitt: I sympathise
E1Nei1: It’s fun, though!
ddavitt: finest kind!
E1Nei1: I wonder how one of those voice recognizers would do in this context.
ddavitt: panic and run away
E1Nei1: Ha!
ddavitt:
DenvToday: Jane, Lincoln declared martial law and abolished the right of habeus corpus for the duration. That meant he could put dissenters in jail for the sin of disagreeing with him. But even worse–he waged a war of starvation against the civilian population of the south. Conceived by Lincoln, carried out by Grant. Burn their farms, leave them to starve, destroy their will to fight.
KultsiKN: You notice, Neil, after a while they don’t pay any respect to you…
KMurphy165: I have come across a web site that does a chat room via voice. Use the microphone on the computer and sound card. Neet
ddavitt: We suffered in UK; our mill workers died cos no cotton came thru
E1Nei1: He brought the midnight knock on the door to America — and was an admnirer of Marx.
ddavitt: typing one fingered now; baby on knee.
E1Nei1: I don’t need no stinkin’ respect, Kultsi.
DenvToday: lol
ddavitt: that is a compliment to Neil that he is one of us:-)
E1Nei1: And I thank you heartily, Jane.
KultsiKN: yes indeedy.
DavidWrightSr: Neil. what do you think about Thorby’s attitude to Lincoln?
E1Nei1: [Rockies lost. Boo. Avs won. Yay!]
ddavitt: It was really Leda in a way..she told Throby he freed slaves and that appealed to him as a former slave
E1Nei1: Citrizen of the Galaxy. Don’t recall thatpoint, though.
DenvToday: Go Avs!!
ddavitt: Or am i remembering wrong?
KultsiKN: Finland won, Yankees lost. Yay!
E1Nei1: Ha!
ddavitt: They visit the memorial at the end when Thorby is on the run
KultsiKN: Ice hockey.
DavidWrightSr: No. He told her. She said that he discovered America or something like that
E1Nei1: Well, as I said, Lincoln freed _no_ slaves. Made many new ones.
KMurphy165: Tummy growling, BRB
E1Nei1: You might want to read _Lever Action_, a piece called “The American Lenin”. Check my website.
ddavitt: Yes; said he founded amnerica LOL; more history being forgotten. Like kilroy
ddavitt: OK, have to put baby to bed. Back soon.
E1Nei1: Gotta leave for a sec. BRB.
DenvToday: rjj, we were discussing the military before. Picture this: Tens of thousands of John Browns marching on the South to abolish the outrage of slavery. They could have attacked ONLY savleowners, not the general population. Eventually, the price of owning a slave would have become too high. But millions of innocents would not have paid the price.
ddavitt: I declare 10 min break
DavidWrightSr: Time for a break anyway.
KultsiKN: Take 5? Agree with ten. Can fill up my cognac.
rjjusu: I’m not sure how you would get 10s of thousands of John Browns. More sheep than sheep dogs or wolves.
EBATNM: Huh?
DenvToday: It is illegal to organize a “private” army. What if it wasn’t illegal?
DenvToday: What if a committed abolitionist with big bucks decided it was time to end slavery?
E1Nei1: It wasn’t illegal then. And FWIW, that’s what Brown tried to do.
E1Nei1: And please always remeber there was _plenty_ of slavery in the north, and _all_ slaver ship captains were New Englanders.
DenvToday: Very true.
rjjusu: Yes, but he underestimated the readiness of the owners to defend their privilege, and overestimated the readiness of the slaves to revolt. In war, as in life, timing is everything.
E1Nei1: The war was about _control_ and about taxes. Already the south paid 80% of the taxes in the US did you know that?
DenvToday: rjj, any war is bloody and difficult. But the horror of the Civil War far surpassed other alternatives.
DenvToday: I didn’t know that.
E1Nei1: Northern indistrialists didn’t want to pay worlkd prices for raw materials. They didn’t want to bid against England and France.
rjjusu: Not sure about the specific number, but I know that the south was on the ropes, economically.
DenvToday: Yep, that I knew.
DavidWrightSr: There was no ‘Civil War’, there was a war between two countries. The US and the CSA.
E1Nei1: So they used brute force — a tariff and then total war — instead.
E1Nei1: David’s right — except the opponents were free and equal states under the Constitution
E1Nei1: already.
DenvToday: It’s very true that most Americans are ignorant of the causes of the “Civil War.” Most would say it was about ending slavery. Which is exactly why government schools shouldn’t teach history.
E1Nei1: The telling point is that Lloyd garrison and other abolitionists wrote papers on how the war, already raging, _into_ one about slavery.
E1Nei1: Not to mention Frederick Douglass.
E1Nei1: Please insert “had to be turned” before _into_
DenvToday: There was an interesting documentary about 2 mmonths back on Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln. While stressing their personal lives, the documentary actually made the points Neil just made.
KultsiKN: We did have a civil war as well, in 1918.
E1Nei1: Tell us more.
KultsiKN: Apparently, the scars of yours did not vanish, as ours did, wheb we all fought against USSR.
KultsiKN: wheb=when
E1Nei1: We do know here about your splendid skiing fighters and excellent riflemen.
KultsiKN: In that, we were a nation united, and ever since after that.
SAcademy has entered the room.
E1Nei1: Hi, Ginny.
DavidWrightSr: WB Ginny. Storms past?
SAcademy: Back again. Storms’ headed for St. Augustine
DenvToday: wb
EBATNM: Funny thing: It was Mannheim, a Russian trained general, who led German trained troopers against the indigeous Red Army
SAcademy: Thanks.
KultsiKN: Mannerheim. Yes, he was, in two wars.
EBATNM: The first one kept Karlia, but the second lost it (as I recall).
KultsiKN: that’s right.
DavidWrightSr: One of my teachers at Monterey, a former Russian general, said that the Finns were good at diverting soviet convoys across weak ice with obvious consequences.
KultsiKN: The second time was against 50 divisions with 5.
EBATNM: The Finns were good at the Winter War, but they lacked heavy weapons and airplanes. The Soviet’s were able to resupply via air.
SAcademy: And we were palsy with the Soviets, to the detriment of Finland.
DavidWrightSr: He also said that the soviets had a lot of trouble with discipline. They would take votes on whether or not to attack and usually voted no.
KultsiKN: Bad thinking before the war: lacking in _everything_ … except willingness to defend,
DenvToday: If I were a Soviet private, that would have been my vote!
EBATNM: You often have problems with discipline when you’re starving to death
DavidWrightSr: Nah. They just weren’t willing to put the state above their individual choices 🙂
KultsiKN: So rite, David.
EBATNM: Wasn’t there a nasty little war with the Nazi’s when Finland opted-out of their alliance?
SAcademy: I was about to say what Kultsi said.
KultsiKN: Yup. Real nasty.
EBATNM: Several thousand Finnish soldiers were surrounded and murdered.
KultsiKN: ??
E1Nei1: “They just weren’t willing to put the state above their individual choices” — sounds like a fine formula to me.
EBATNM: As I recall, one battalion was on detached duty. They didn’t get the word in time to get out of harm’s way. So …
SAcademy: Reminds me of a story I heard in Finnland: one soldier to the other one, “I’ll go out and surround them while you finish your cigarette.”
DavidWrightSr: I imagine that quite a few Russians have had to learn how to be free in an unfree world.
ddavitt: OK I’m back. Neil, got out my course notes; one essay I wrote was”The Civil war was an irrepressible conflict’. Discuss. Some of the references were F Thistlethwaite, A Craven, A Nevins..mostly authors from the 1950’s 1960’s. I got quite a good grade on it:-)
KultsiKN: SA, ROFLAMAO!
ddavitt: But I see we’ve moved on a few decades…
DenvToday: I’m still laughing. lol
E1Nei1: I always marvelled at the way the Finns managed to stay independent while living on the Soviet doorstep.
KultsiKN: Bend.
E1Nei1: Fight.
EBATNM: The Soviets, while winning the war, really didn’t want to go another round.
RaShaKaela has entered the room.
KultsiKN: That’s right.
DenvToday: Hi RaSha
ddavitt: Welcome!
EBATNM: They lost a lot of troops for territory they really couldn’t use except as a buffer for Leningrad *er* St. Petersburg
RaShaKaela: Hi. Let me change my color and font. 🙂
DavidWrightSr: Please 🙂
KultsiKN: Not _that_ Ra Sha!
DenvToday: When did the Soviets ever mind losing a lot of troops?
DavidWrightSr: Probably when they needed them for bigger things.
EBATNM: They had just lost 50 million people in the “Great Patriotic War” (WW 2).
KultsiKN: Never. Peasants? Nyechivo!
DenvToday: It’s still hard to digest those numbers.
RaShaKaela: Okay, who’s KultsiKN to ask which RaSha? 😉
SAcademy: It simply isn’t true.
EBATNM: World War 2 was won on the Eastern Front. The Soviets would have won with, or without, the rest of the Allies.
KultsiKN: I’m ME! And that’s why.
RaShaKaela: 😛
SAcademy: Nonsense.
SAcademy: WWII was won by us invading Europe.
KultsiKN: Agree, Ginny.
DavidWrightSr: Stalin certainly pushed for us to open the second front.
SAcademy: Thanks Kultsi
RaShaKaela: The Nazis would have pretty much rolled over the Soviets if Germany hadn’t been fighting a two-front war
ddavitt: And by Hitler fighting on two fronts and weakening his attack
ddavitt: Could you go to bold please RaSha? Sorry to nag:-)
RaShaKaela: Thought I was…. [puzzled]
rjjusu: Yep, two fronts made all the difference – good or bad – for all parties.
EBATNM: During the invasion the Nazi’s transfered troops from France (SS Panzer Division) to the East to hold-off the Soviet Winter Offensive.
RaShaKaela: better?
ddavitt: Smashing super!
DavidWrightSr: Si, Da Oui Ja
KultsiKN: Much.
SAcademy: A lot better, Thanks.
ddavitt: As we Brits say
RaShaKaela: heh
SAcademy: Oh, let’s not fight it all again. I’m tired of it for one.
DenvToday: Jane, sorry if I was overbearing before. I don’t usually get on my soapbox.
ddavitt: But we know who won SA; that takes the sting out.
ddavitt: Ron; never noticed; sorry if I seemed agressive too
DenvToday: Not at all.
ddavitt: I’m not thin skinned on usenet
SAcademy: Don’t worry, Jane. I was aggressive too.
ddavitt: Too easy to take offence where none was intended
rjjusu: Let’s all link arms and sing Kumbaya! Not.
ddavitt: Never Ginny!
DenvToday: lol rjj.
E1Nei1: Ha!
ddavitt: We are all enjoying a lively discussion in a good spirit.
E1Nei1: There you go.
ddavitt: And as long as I’m the host it’ll stay that way 🙂
DenvToday: Absolutely!
EBATNM: No offense meant, none taken
ddavitt: Sheesh..lets get back to the fight…err discussion
KultsiKN: Yea, this cognac is _wonderful_
SAcademy: I think that I’m the only one who remembers it who is here now.
ddavitt: Dave; were you alive then?
SAcademy: To all the rest of you it’s just history.
DavidWrightSr: Being a linguist, I’ve often thought that we need to develop a better written language that can carry all of the nuances of speech. Something smileys do, but on a far more comprehensive scale. However, by the time we get around to it, if ever, we’ll all be talking face-to face. 🙂
EBATNM: I don’t remember it, but I studied it for my degree before leaving University in a disgust
ddavitt: Or am I mixing you up with another poster?
E1Nei1: Personal history to some — my dad was a POW in Germany and taught me a lot.
ddavitt: But discussing it keeps it from being forgotten SA
DavidWrightSr: I was just 4. I don’t remember much.
DenvToday: David…face to face? Without computers or phones? People actually do that?
DavidWrightSr: I mean with computers. 🙂
KultsiKN: I’m pretty good with _this_ language, Dave.
DenvToday: Ah….I see!
RaShaKaela: I was VN era. My Dad was in during Korean War, but not in theater
EBATNM: I had relitives on both sides
ddavitt: My parents were born in 1940 but they can remember the aftermath; rationing and conscription. my dad had to do a stint in the RAF
SAcademy: I was a Navy Lt. during WWII
DenvToday: Neil, my father was born in Germany, decided it wasn’t a good thing to become a bar of soap, and made his way to the U.S. He was with U.S. Intelligence at the age of 18. I grew up on his stories.
E1Nei1: Your dad was smart!
E1Nei1: I’m trying to talk British friends into coming here for the same reason.
DenvToday: Yes!
DavidWrightSr: Jane, your parents and I were born the same year. Just had my 61st birthday.
RaShaKaela: I met a woman yesterday who had relatives get caught in Poland.
ddavitt: Were you at the place where you met Mr Heinlein the whole war SA?
ddavitt: We’re all 21 on the net Dave…
DenvToday: SA, I’ve read about your service in W.W. II. Not too many details. I guess RAH didn’t want to discuss some things.
SAcademy: Yes. Phhiladelphia.
EBATNM: ddavitt: Age or IQ?
SAcademy: Oh, I flew a desk/
KultsiKN: Was it, like, at first sight?
ddavitt: We know a lot about your husband’s life Ginny; have you ever felt tempted to write about your own history?
ddavitt: Both sometimes Andy!
SAcademy: He said to me, “Lieutenant, your slip is showing.”
EBATNM: And as we know “Loose slips sink ships:
DenvToday: lol
RaShaKaela: 😀
ddavitt: Did you really wear a headband when you shouldn’t?
ddavitt: As it said in tramp Royale?
SAcademy: Yes,
SAcademy: I wasn’t reg.
ddavitt: I like that!:-)
RaShaKaela: Was that the era when red lipstick was part of the women’s uniform?
SAcademy: I’m still not.
EBATNM has left the room.
SAcademy: Well, that was the Marines.
DenvToday: I recommended Tramp Royale to a friend just yesterday. She’s thinking about cruising the Med. I told her to take passage on a freighter and read Tramp Royale.
ddavitt: We should have you as a guest Ginny; I bet you have some wonderful stories.
SAcademy: You know, that title has always bothered me. It should be Tramp Royal. No “E”
RaShaKaela: Second that motion!
ddavitt: We discussed that once; what is the poem’s title? The Kipling one?
ddavitt: I have it but I can’t recall off hand
SAcademy: Kipling’s title is: Tramp Royal.
ddavitt: So that should be the book title too; who changed it? And why?
E1Nei1: “Do you like Kipling?” “I don’t know — I’ve never Kipled.”
RaShaKaela: heh
SAcademy: I tried to get the “E’s” removed when I got the galleys, and they said”Impossible.”
E1Nei1: Sorry.
ddavitt: Classic comment…
DenvToday: Somebody had to say that. It’s the law. 🙂
ddavitt: How odd!
ddavitt: So someone else put them in?
RaShaKaela: But have you ever Kipled Fish? 😉
E1Nei1: Del Rey once cut 40 pages from a book of mine, then said it was too late to change it — although I could always buy the book back.
EBATNM has entered the room.
E1Nei1: Do kipled fish have a special parking area?
E1Nei1: Sorry again.
EBATNM: Sorry, my ISP is flaky today. It’s in Roswell which explains ….. something
DenvToday: rofl Actually, that one was very good!
RaShaKaela: Yes, usually a cassette or CD player.
SAcademy: On a reprint, Robert Silverberg left out the end of The Year of the Jackpot. (last third) and blamed it on Barbara.
E1Nei1: Geez.
ddavitt: That would be so frustrating to an author
ddavitt: I read a Nevada Barr mystery
ddavitt: In the hardback, a character is a 50 year old man
SAcademy: It was supposed to be fixed for the paperback, but it wasn’t.
ddavitt: in the pb a 30 year old woman
RaShaKaela: yeesh
ddavitt: Someone in rl had that name and made a fuss so it got changed. Ridiculous
KultsiKN: Like me?
DenvToday: Jane, it makes perfect sense–the paperback is smaller.
ddavitt: 🙂
DavidWrightSr: afk for a few minutes.
ddavitt: OK
SAcademy: Do you smile like that, Jane?
KultsiKN: No, better.
E1Nei1: How do you get one of those smileys with all the teeth?
ddavitt: I don’t smile in mirrors so i don’t know….I’m a happy person i think
RaShaKaela: ctrl-shift-8
ddavitt: click on the smiley on the bar across your page
KultsiKN: Like this 😀
RaShaKaela: 😀
E1Nei1: 😀
DenvToday: :-*
ddavitt: :-):-*8-)O:-):-D:-P:-[
KultsiKN: Roight.
SAcademy: 😀
RaShaKaela: By Jove, I think he’s got it! 😉
ddavitt: LOTS of them…for every occasion
E1Nei1: Hilarious!
SAcademy: I think he has.
DenvToday: 😎 Reminds me of Bob Ringer.
E1Nei1: Haven’t heard that name in a while.
ddavitt: OK, we are drifting…anyone got any serious questions ? Or are we winding down with all that cognac floating around?
RaShaKaela: ?
DenvToday: He has a new book out, actually.
KultsiKN: Any movie star w. shades.
E1Nei1: I could alwaysplug _Lever Action_ again.
KultsiKN: Aw, Jane, t’was low.
KMurphy165: If it’s not inappropriate, I would second the motion to ask Mrs. Heinlein to write her story?
KultsiKN: Karl, second ya!
DenvToday: I have a question: Neil, you’ve created such a detailed universe–the North American Confederacy. Is it difficult to live here and now? We suffer so much by comparison.
SAcademy: Oh, no you don’t!!!
RaShaKaela: Third it! 😀
DenvToday: Fourth!
DenvToday: Can you fourth a motion? Doesn’t matter.
E1Nei1: Ron — sometimes it’s very difficult — although _Pallas_ is more reachable and I hink about it more.
E1Nei1: think
RaShaKaela: Someone should fifth it so we can all get refills (or firsts) of cognac. 😉
DenvToday: You want to create a Ngu world, eh?
ddavitt: We know virtually nothing about you Ginny; but you were a vital part of it all. But we aren’t trying to pressure you. We are interested, not inquisitive.
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
Heinleinsmof: I can’t believe I made it!
ddavitt: It’s great that you share any details with us.
ddavitt: About time too Bill
SAcademy: I don’t either.
Heinleinsmof: You should have been through the effort from my end!
ddavitt: We are discussing alcohol just for a change
KultsiKN: Gremlins, Bill?
SAcademy: You didn’t mark the shortcut?
RaShaKaela: brb
ddavitt: Glad you made it. lots of gremlins for several people and on thursday too
EBATNM: see?
Heinleinsmof: In a manner of speaking
Heinleinsmof: Yes, I see, Andy — sorry to be precipitate.
SAcademy: Well, speak more clearly then
ddavitt: Any question for Neil Bill?
ddavitt: comma missing there
ddavitt: We have covered some interesting areas in the two chats.
Heinleinsmof: I don’t know if you are on a break right now, but I would appreciate a review so I don’t ask about any material already covered.
ddavitt: Err…we are almost at the end of over 5 hours chat; that’s a lot to summarise!
Heinleinsmof: For Neil’s benefit, I am a regular with the group here, but I am in Santa Cruz right now and have had to have a phone line specially installed in my hotel in order to be here. The installation was just completed
ddavitt: Why don’t you ask and we’ll tell you if it’s been discussed or look at it again?
EBATNM: It was an interesting chat. With overtones of spices and orange. A nice mellow chat, suitable for guest or slowly sipping by the fire.
Heinleinsmof: I’m about to finish reading Forge of the Elders — some very nice aliens in there; lots of Heinlein references, too.
AGplusone has entered the room.
ddavitt: Thank you for all that effort Bill; but it will come in handy for the rest of your stay i assume?
ddavitt: Hi AG
Heinleinsmof: Of course — not completely “alien” though.
SAcademy: Hello, David.
AGplusone: Hello, Neil, Connie says “Hello” and hi everyone.
Heinleinsmof: Yes, Jane. Exactly. I am going to be here until June 8, so it will repay the expense.
RaShaKaela: Neil, you ran for president on the Libertarian ticket, didn’t you?
E1Nei1: Okay, where to strart answering …
ddavitt: You’ve lost your bold again RaSha..
SAcademy: Welcome to Santa Cruz. think you can stand it for that long?
E1Nei1: Thannks for the nice words about _Forge_ it was a labor of love.
Heinleinsmof: Actually SC is very nice once you get out of the blighted area.
E1Nei1: And yes I ran for Pres and may again.
RaShaKaela: Mainly I was wondering if you started writing science fiction before or after you entered politics.
Heinleinsmof: Was it published as 3 books originally, Neil — or was that just for convenience in writing? I haven’t seen any of the titles
SAcademy: Yo don’t mean the University do you?
Heinleinsmof: Oh, for LNS science fiction IS politics…
E1Nei1: smof is right.
Heinleinsmof: Not the university — the area from the 1 and 17 splitting to the ocean is pretty grim, but the rest seems to be a nice California coastal town.
ddavitt: Yes; I was intrigued by the idea that libertariansim grew out of SF; not many genres can claim that distinction
RaShaKaela: Really?
E1Nei1: I wanted to be another HG Wells, and _not_ an Edward Bellamy. But instead of socialism, my view was libertarian.
Heinleinsmof: Sorry to be carrying on two conversations simultaneously. Where did you get that idea, Jane?
ddavitt: Research when Bill Willimas was trying to educate me
Heinleinsmof: What we today call libertarianism has been an underground tradition in the U.S. since Josiah Warren at least.
EBATNM: Because she hasn’t read “Men Against the State”?
ddavitt: Not the historical libertarian ideas of course..
Heinleinsmof: That’s dating from — what, the 1840’s and the Fourierists?
ddavitt: The recent US developement
RaShaKaela: What roots of libertarianism are peculiar to SF ?
ddavitt: The SF Encyclopedia may have mentioned it; but you don’t like that book IIRC
E1Nei1: Heinlein, Rand, Russell
Heinleinsmof: But modern libertarian ideology traces itself directly to people like Benjamin Tucker and Albert J. Nock.
E1Nei1: Poil Anderson, too.
ddavitt: Exactly Neil
DenvToday: Jane, libertarianism grew out of the Age of Reason. Samuel Adams and George Mason would have called themselves libertarians. But I think the correct term is “classical liberal.”
E1Nei1: Poul
E1Nei1: Except that liberal got tainted
Heinleinsmof: Well — sf took up libertarianism after Russell and Heinlein paved the way.
E1Nei1: Yes. But don’t exclude Rand — Shrugged and Anthem are SF
Heinleinsmof: Classical liberalism is not completely compatible with libertarianism.
EBATNM: Some people in SF. I wouldn’t call Harrison, Asimov, or Ellison libertarians
RaShaKaela: Doesn’t Milton Friedman still proudly claim the label of “classic liberal?”
E1Nei1: They’re all socialists.
DenvToday: Eric Frank Russell, who was British, was one of the early ones.
E1Nei1: I think Uncle Miltie’s calling himself a libertarian these days.
Heinleinsmof: Jefferson is kind of the classic “classical liberal,” and he was decidedly not a libertarian.
E1Nei1: Right, smof.
EBATNM: Depends on whether he was in or out of power
Heinleinsmof: A libertarian couldn’t justify either the embargo or the Louisiana Purchase the way it was done.
Heinleinsmof: Or slaveholding.
DenvToday: To be honest, Samuel Adams would be busy drinking beer these days. (Groan…sorry)
RaShaKaela: ‘Classic liberalism’ is directly descended from Locke, isn’t it?
ddavitt: John Stuart Mill too
Heinleinsmof: I was always more impressed with John Adams.
E1Nei1: Jefferson, as governor, wanted to bore a half-inch hole sideways through the noses of adulterous women. Wiser heads prevailed.
EBATNM: The British Empiricists
ddavitt: “On Liberty”
RaShaKaela: Drat. Mill is the one I always forget.
E1Nei1: American libertarianism began with those Scottish guys who wrote under the name Cato.
E1Nei1: As in “Cato’s Letters”. Locke is a bum steer.
Heinleinsmof: Today we call a classical liberal a “conservative — you know, not one of the religious right ones…”
ddavitt: He thought govt should only stop an action if it would harm someone else; not the person acting. So he would dispprove of drug laws I assume
RaShaKaela: Neat. A source I haven’t read. 🙂
EBATNM: And don’t forget William Godwin
Heinleinsmof: And Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin
ddavitt: Labels, names…..peel ’em off and stick on new ones as the climate changes
DenvToday: Or Archie Goodwin, for that matter.
E1Nei1: Wish I could remember their names — but look up Cato’s Letters in your browser.
AGplusone: So where do we put Burke?
RaShaKaela: Okay. Thanks
E1Nei1: Godwin was a socialist? Hw come his name arises here?
E1Nei1: Make t a !
Heinleinsmof: Co-founder of the natural law tradition therefore a predecessor of classical liberal, I guess.
DenvToday: John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon
ddavitt: Burke was a conservative IIRC
E1Nei1: YayYYY!!
DenvToday: That was just off the top of my head, of course. (Ahem….)
AGplusone: maybe …
E1Nei1: Burke was a fellow-traveller.
AGplusone: He certainly was reacting to something
Heinleinsmof: Wasn’t Locke Burke’s secretary or somesuch?
ddavitt: Conservatism emerged in 1789..Burke wrote Reflections on the Rev in France in 1790
E1Nei1: Dunno.
EBATNM: Locke was a professor in Edinburogh
EBATNM: Edinburogh?
E1Nei1: And exiled, at one time.
RaShaKaela: Where does Paine go in this field?
ddavitt: He was anti violent revolution as a way of changing things
Heinleinsmof: I had the impression that Locke:Burke :: Comte:St.-Simon
E1Nei1: Paine was a student of Cato’s Letters — another Scot, of course.
ddavitt: But most of his work pre dated conservatism which is a tricky problem…
Heinleinsmof: The language is always tricky because the terms meant something very different in the 18th century.
EBATNM: Was Burke a Tory or a Whig? I canna remember
ddavitt: Yes; labels again
DenvToday: Interestingly, one of the most freedom-loving films of recent years was Braveheart. Coincidence? lol
RaShaKaela: heh
AGplusone: … and one of the least historically accurate …
E1Nei1: I think all this use of “conservatism” is incorrect. In the 18th century, a conservative would have been a monarchist. What we’re trying to say here is “republican”.
DenvToday: David, very true. Seeing the movie made me read up on Wallace. Whoa, did the movie take liberties! But I still loved it.
E1Nei1: In its 18th century meaning.
ddavitt: An anti revolutionsist certainly
Heinleinsmof: In the European tradition (up until about 1930 when it came to the US) Conservative = monarchist and liberal = Marxist
ddavitt: Still sort of valid today in the UK Bill
EBATNM: Where do the Social Democrats fit into that paradighm?
E1Nei1: My daughter takes issue with the Braveheart thingy, saying a better movie of this kind was The Patriot.
Heinleinsmof: Social Democrats are Marxists.
ddavitt: Who cares? Jokes
Heinleinsmof: heretical marxists, I guess
ddavitt: Not in the UK
DenvToday: Tell your daughter it’s on HBO in about 15 minutes. My VCR is primed and ready.
EBATNM: I’m not sure either would accept that.
EBATNM: Lenin thought the S.D.’s where traitors.
E1Nei1: Thanks, Ron. We’re about to buy the DVD.
EBATNM: darn it “were”
Heinleinsmof: If you take Marxism but remove the revolutionary concept, and make it evolutionary and progressive rather than revolutionary, you get Social Democrats — it’s still class-conflict socialism.
RaShaKaela: I always think it funny when modern liberals label people who support republican forms of government as ‘Nazis.’ They forget that was the National Socialist Workers Party.
EBATNM: Ahh, I see
E1Nei1: I make few distinctions among those who wish to appropriate my life. Hang ’em all.
ddavitt: Sory; I am being crypitic. In the UK we have a party called the SDP; Social Democrats
E1Nei1: With a dirty rope.
ddavitt: They aren’t the same as those SD’s.
rjjusu: But good libertarians would band together and donate a clean rope. 😉
Heinleinsmof: It’s the damage done to our terminology by the Popular Front appropriating anti-Naziism to Communism.
EBATNM: and different from Labour (note correct spellink)
AGplusone: so they’ll die of blood poisoning if not of a broken neck or strangling, eh …
DenvToday: RaSha, so very true. Nazis were national socialists, the communists international socialists. No essential difference.
ddavitt: But equally bad reputations IMO
E1Nei1: My next nonfiction book will be called _There’s No Such Thing as a Liberal_ — they’re socialists just like all the rest.
DenvToday: That observation usually drives my leftist friends to drooling rages. But they can’t refute it.
AGplusone: And what are the SD’s in Germany today.
AGplusone: ?
Heinleinsmof: Heinlein called them Black Fascists versus Red Fascists
RaShaKaela: Except that the ‘communists’ were the Nazis’ biggest bogie man when they were trying to get into power.
DavidWrightSr: That was a case of two ‘leaders’ fighting each other for top spot.
DenvToday: RaSha, the Mensheviks hated the Bolsheviks too.
E1Nei1: Socialists always fight among themselves.
rjjusu: The man in the mirror is always the scariest.
AGplusone: How would you access the Expanionist Party as portrayed in Double Star, Neil?
RaShaKaela: Neil, if you look at the methods the modern liberals use, they appear to have been lifted straight out of “Mein Kampf”
AGplusone: …. sionist
E1Nei1: I have many of the same values, AG. That’s one reason I ran last time.
E1Nei1: You’re right, RaSha.
RaShaKaela: Emotional appeals, denigration of intellect and achievement, scapegoating…… Scary.
ddavitt: were they the Bonforte party AG?
AGplusone: I noted the method of selecting representatives, by occupation, as well, as geographical, in that particular form of representative government ….
ddavitt: Or the enemy?
AGplusone: Yes.
AGplusone: Bonforte
DenvToday: RaSha, if you take out the anti-Semitism in Mein Kamf, you’re left with a socialist economic program that would be applauded by the Democrats and the Labour Party.
E1Nei1: John Joseph Bonforte is another favorite RAH character of mine.
ddavitt: Prof suggested that too
RaShaKaela: Which is why I have for years been saying that ‘liberals’ are in fact fascists.
AGplusone: Except possibly the “national defense” aspect of it, RaSha
E1Nei1: On the whole, of course, I’d rather not be represented — or taxed.
ddavitt: Mkes as much sense as any
Heinleinsmof: I think some of the democratic free cities in Medieval Russia used that method of representation.
E1Nei1: Right again, RaSha!!
AGplusone: Many city councils during the middle ages consisted solely of guild representatives
RaShaKaela: AG, as far as I can tell, the national defense aspect is something they decry because they expect to maneuver everything into a One-World-Government under the UN.
AGplusone: except, of course, the cathedral representatives … who were, of course, the shaman guild
Heinleinsmof: Often that was the only way the local nobleman would charter a city.
DenvToday: David, would that be Hanseatics across the Sea?
AGplusone: urk, urk ….
ddavitt: So you would disapprove of our British system of Social Security? It is flawed and showing its age but it has given health care and old age pensions to many people who would literally have died without it.
AGplusone: uh, aye, aye, I meant
DenvToday: lol
ddavitt: Can a poor person reasonably be expected to be a libertarian?
DenvToday: Jane, you’re assuming that without social security, there would be nothing to replace it.
ddavitt: Isn’t it a luxury option?
EBATNM: At the time, there wasn’t
E1Nei1: “Can a poor person reasonably be expected to be a libertarian?”
Heinleinsmof: And you don’t see a connection with the current state of Britain’s economic health compared to its pre-Social Security days?
AGplusone: preparing carefully for follow-up … oh, yeah, compasionate (whatever you’d call ’em … here’s a hug, now go see if the church is distributing alms today.
ddavitt: If the governemnt didn’t provide, they couldn’t afford it themselves. They need that cradle to grave support
KMurphy165: Ms. Davitt. By many scales, I am poor and yet, I’m a libertarian.
E1Nei1: Once again — government _creates_ poverty. In an indistrial society, tyhat’s the only way it happens.
ddavitt: Please, call me Jane.
AGplusone: government? what about simple strong man rule?
ddavitt: We didn’t lose the Empire because Lloyd George started OAP’s
RaShaKaela: brb
DenvToday: Jane, didn’t Blair propose–just the other day–to let citizens invest part of their social security in the private sector?
AGplusone: If that’s a government …
ddavitt: I’m not up on current stuff; let it slide since emigrating 🙁
DenvToday: He did.
AGplusone: doesn’t matter whether he did or not …
DenvToday: Even socialists can recognize economic reality. They won’t follow it often, but they’ll recognize it.
KMurphy165: I think a poor person should be more motivated to be a libertarian than a rich person
ddavitt: we all know the pyramid is making the pension unworkable now
ddavitt: why?
Heinleinsmof: We knew the pyramid would make the pension unworkable in 1933.
ddavitt: part of why i said it was showing its age. But it still has its strengths
Heinleinsmof: That is, we knew in 1933.
Heinleinsmof: It’s “strengths” are vampiric.
AGplusone: so is all forms of insurance
ddavitt: all children in the UK get free eye tests and free dentistry
ddavitt: That’s cost effective in the long run
Heinleinsmof: No — insurance is a bet.
KMurphy165: “Democracy” or what ever you cal collectivist state, works in large part on influence. Thus the poor persone, without the means of purchasing influence has little way to protect his interest. Thus, libertarianism is the only known system to grant the best chance of being misused by the State.
AGplusone: vampiric bet …
DenvToday: KM, you’re absolutely right. I became a libertarian when I was a kid right out of college, not two cents to my name. Many years later, I do have two cents. (Oh wait..that doesn’t make my point…)
AGplusone: because the insurance company takes its cut
AGplusone: the bookie’s house percentage
E1Nei1: Details, details. The truts, we’d all have 8 times as much real wealth if the government dried up and blew away. It’s a drag brake on prosperity and progress, a parasite on our species, a disease masquerading as its own cure. Ut takes half of what you earn and “gives back” a pittance — like rotten healthcare.
E1Nei1: that’s “truth”
E1Nei1: And “It”
AGplusone: “all”?
E1Nei1: All
Heinleinsmof: Yes — it costs roughly 5 times (I worked it out once) as much to have a government provide a service as to have a private entity perform the same service.
Heinleinsmof: Huge nonproductive overhead to support — it’s a dragline.
AGplusone: what about the lame, halt and unlucky? Note I didn’t say a damned thing about the lazy or stupid
ddavitt: But someone still has to pay; who?
DenvToday: The government has often been compared to the Mafia, but that’s unfair. The Mafia gives value for money.
E1Nei1: In a free society, AG, the pie is constantly expanding.
E1Nei1: Pay forat, Jan?
E1Nei1: Pay for what, Jane?
RaShaKaela: As for insurance, I have seen medical costs go from what a below-poverty-level family could afford, to something that is almost inaccessible without some form of insurance. Tell me insurance is a good thing.
ddavitt: 5 times cheaper; but there is still a cost. Who pays?
AGplusone: Not if you’ve ever dealt with the mafia, Ron … and my family had to once upon a time … all robber barons give is robbery
E1Nei1: Insurance is another kind of government.
Heinleinsmof: Well — in part medical costs have ballooned because of the corrupt government-insurance combination.
E1Nei1: Right.
AGplusone: isn’t that the nature of a corporate form of business enterprise?
E1Nei1: Yes.
RaShaKaela: And where do the litigious parts of society — both the lawsuit happy people and the lawyers who feed off them — get their foundation?
AGplusone: regardless of whether there’s a ‘government’ influence?
Heinleinsmof: NO!
DenvToday: David, you’re right. I was being flip, but the Mafia and the government are in the same business. IMHO
AGplusone: beyond allowing corporations
Heinleinsmof: The general nature of a corporate business enterprise is a combination to spread risk
ddavitt: I agree that governemnt tree needs pruning; I agree that there are laws about things which are people’s own business…but I can’t go as far down that road as you all want to. I think it is too drastic and ignores the fallibility of most people and their basic apathy
Heinleinsmof: You don’t have to spon
Heinleinsmof: sor coercive monopolies.
E1Nei1: Sorry, Jane, that’s he we got into this mess.
AGplusone: the general nature of a corporate business enterprise is to allow risk with limited, very strickly limited, liability, in other words, a circumstance inherently adaptable to fraud
E1Nei1: We are free or we are not.
AGplusone: strictly
DenvToday: Neil, I was wrong. The Patriot starts at 7:00 PM on HBO.
EBATNM: Corporations are a way for the shareholders to shield themselves from the consequences of their actions.
ddavitt: But that is your choice; it;s how you view yourself.
Heinleinsmof: That is the practice within the current set-up; it’s not an inherent feature of the corporate modality.
AGplusone: Exactly … shield …
AGplusone: Not since the Union Pacific case …
AGplusone: And you see the end of the line in Friday
EBATNM: Exactly!
Heinleinsmof: I agree; current practices are hopelessly corrupt.
AGplusone: totally ungovernable entities … a libertarianism for non-humans
ddavitt: world wide? Or are you just talking about the USA?
Heinleinsmof: I don’t think the current set-up would survive in a libertarian framework — libertarians require strict accountability.
ddavitt: That’s another stumbling block…you all tend to see what is happeneing in US as universal and it isn’t. Different countries do it differently.
AGplusone: okay, if they do of themselves … except who watches their self-guardian?
rjjusu: Most corporations today are transnational entities who are concerned mainly for their own survival.
E1Nei1: Folks, I’m gonna hafta bow out, I’m afraid. I have a dinner appointment. But I’ve enjoyed this enormously, and I thank you all very much for a great couple of evenings.
RaShaKaela: Bye, Neal. Nice meeting you.
rjjusu: Please come again!
AGplusone: Come back when we have Connie, or anytime!!!!
Heinleinsmof: I did want to ask a question about your business, JNS
E1Nei1: I will.
ddavitt: Neil, on behalf of the group, it has been a privilege to have you as our guest
ddavitt: Thank you for giving up your time
DenvToday: Guys, I hope you don’t think that libertarianism means an absence of infrastructure. Some of it would simply be transferred to private hands–and subject to competition. Who gives you better service? The post office or FedEx?
ddavitt: I hope, like Joel, you will come back again in the future
EBATNM: Ta-Ta Neil.
AGplusone: Notice you didn’t mention UPS, Ron …
RaShaKaela: heh
E1Nei1: You’re all very welcome. Ask your question, smof.
DenvToday: Neil, thanks so much for being with us!
Heinleinsmof: Thank yu — any plans to get the Prob
Heinleinsmof: iliyt Broach series back in print?
Heinleinsmof: Probability Broach, I meant.
EBATNM: If you see Sam, Schulmann, or Koman tell ’em Andy said “Hi”
E1Nei1: Well, there’s a new edition of _Broach_ coming in December. And one always has hopes. Gotta go now, though. Bye.
ddavitt: Goodnight!
DenvToday: Bye Neil!
AGplusone: that’s good news …
AGplusone: bye, and thank you
Heinleinsmof: Thanks.
ddavitt: well, I will have to go too in a minute
E1Nei1 has left the room.
AGplusone: Basic note: Connie Willis has agreed to come … I’ll work out details with Jane, Oz and Dave Wright
EBATNM: Jane, most Americans have absolutely no idea of the British Class system & can’t understand it. Don’t want to understand it.
DenvToday: Again, sorry for my soapbox. I’ve done more preaching in the last few hours than in the last three years! lol
ddavitt: Can people think about a summer break and the possibility of moving the Sat chats to a different time?
Heinleinsmof: CAn’t believe it, more like
rjjusu: Oh Jane, please don’t go! boo-hoo…..
ddavitt: Grat; I ahve read several of her books and enjoyed them
AGplusone: what would you suggest for time, Jane ….?
ddavitt: That’s better; grief, wailing and gnashing of teeth…
DenvToday: David, excellent. She’s a wonderful writer.
KMurphy165: I should like to come back again. I’ve dropped a shortcut on the desk top. But the URL i was given doesn’t seem to work. Advice would be appreciated for reconnecting.
ddavitt: Well, it’s a difficult time for me but I don’t want the European people to be left with no way of particiapating
RaShaKaela: I have to leave, too. Gotta make supper for the kids. [waves to all]
ddavitt: As they would if we dropped it all together
AGplusone: an earlier hour …
AGplusone: or two?
ddavitt: Night RaSha!
RaShaKaela has left the room.
ddavitt: Any time when the kids are awake is hard.
Heinleinsmof: Middle of Saturday is inherently inconvenient. Chores day.
ddavitt: Either it becomes hosted by a European…hint hint
rjjusu: Week nights seem to be better – could we start somewhat earlier?
ddavitt: and US people join if they can..
AGplusone: KM … fill out your buddy list with ddavitt, DavidWrightSr and me, as well as Major oz and others. Then use IM to communicate and ask for an invitation if they’re on line
Heinleinsmof: I think that is a very good idea — hosting by a European.
DenvToday: That would be fine with me.
AGplusone: as a back up … the link should work usually
ddavitt: We need to get more people from that side of the pond
Heinleinsmof: How would Sunday evening work for Europeans and Australia?
DenvToday: By the way Jane, don’t think most Americans think as I do (Or Neil, for that matter). Most people I know consider me a fringe nut. lol
Heinleinsmof: I think that would put it on early Monday a.m. for the Brits, wouldn’t it? So Francesco would be adversely affected, too
EBATNM: What time Sunday?
ddavitt: Australia is difficult as that would make it early Monday for Sean I think
rjjusu: No, Ron, I think you are a very mainstream nut….. 🙂
DenvToday: lol rjj. rofl I like that!
ddavitt: I don’t think that; just a very different background to me
AGplusone: okay for Australia, except church goers I suppose, but way too late for Europe …
ddavitt: Not wrong; just different
Heinleinsmof: I regretfully conclude Saturdays mid-day PST are the most convenient for the out-of-US people.
AGplusone: Saturday morning for us might help Europe …
ddavitt: But does Sean join in much now? 🙁
AGplusone: I think if he’s awake …
Heinleinsmof: Thiis suggests to me a European host might be the best thing to pursue as a stopgap.
ddavitt: maybe we have to just set a time and not attempt to please all people
Heinleinsmof: Or rotate among the active participants. Maybe we need a “shadow” management group for out of North America.
AGplusone: Why don’t we talk to Jani and Kultsi … “”””waving to
Kultsi””””””
rjjusu: I think you should focus on our guests, and let us true believers join in when we can.
ddavitt: But at the moment we have two reasonable times for the US and none for Europe; this is 3.00 am for you isn’t it Kultsi/
ddavitt: That’s not fair…
AGplusone: I can survive watching football and typing at the same time … earlier
AGplusone: if you can stand play-by-plays re UCLA vs. Whomever ….
Heinleinsmof: How about Jane, David Wright, Oz, and I add AGP+1, SEan, Francesco, and Kultsi to our management group and talk about the prob
Heinleinsmof: lem?
ddavitt: I need another host for saturdays, especially in the summer; too much outside stuff going on, barbecues, going to the park, swimming and such
ddavitt: Sure.
rjjusu: If we are trying to get someone to join our group, especially for the first time, or a guest author, we need to consider their needs, since we are asking the authors to give of themselves.
ddavitt: AG; didn’t we break in the summer last year?
AGplusone: need someone from England
AGplusone: No.
Heinleinsmof: I don’t foresee any way of settling this right at the moment, so let’s add Jani as well and “reconvenen” by e-mail as we have been doing.
AGplusone: Been through break-don’t break … break kills momentum
ddavitt: Jani hasn’t been on the chats for a while either 🙁
rjjusu: She’s been very …. busy.
ddavitt: OK; good idea as I do have to go
ddavitt: could discuss on afh?
Heinleinsmof: OK — Jane would you send out an email to the entire group setting out our “problem” and asking for inputs, particularly from the irregulars.
AGplusone: possibly subject matter a bit .. I have to go too. Wife will be waiting me in 15 minutes. Why don’t you set up a time for a chat, jane.
DavidWrightSr: Do we have a topic for next time?
ddavitt: Not yet..
AGplusone: KM, did you catch that suggestion?
ddavitt: Lots to discuss
ddavitt: No time will suit everyone tho
ddavitt: But I can draft an email to group
AGplusone: Suggest you schedule topic “Heinlein” and “Humor” generally … I’ll host. Read HSSWT and Stranger for it
ddavitt: How about next thursday at usual chat time?
Heinleinsmof: OK — I was about to suggest first topic should be next subject — this sounds good.
ddavitt: Ok that sounds nice and vague
Heinleinsmof: “Lost Legacy” — remarks by Master Ling.
KMurphy165: Yes, I did. AG. Thanks a lot. I’ve been lurking while furiously building the new buddy list and catching up.
AGplusone: yeah, with malice aforethought ….
ddavitt: So you can do a lead off post AG?
AGplusone: Fine with me … let me know if you all decide. Yes, I can
ddavitt: So, can we meet on Thursday at 9.00 EST?
AGplusone: I Have to go.
ddavitt: Any problems?
ddavitt: Bye AG; thanks!
rjjusu: Go for it.
Heinleinsmof: OK — You are on for next topic, guaranteed. So you an do your lead-off at any time.
AGplusone: please mail to Jani, etc ….
ddavitt: OK, I so move, night all, see you Thursday
AGplusone: Okay, see ya all. bye
AGplusone has left the room.
DenvToday: Byeee everybody! Thanks for the wonderful discussion.
ddavitt has left the room.
DenvToday has left the room.
Heinleinsmof: Good chat, it seemed to me. Sorry I’ve been out of touch for the last several days.
EBATNM: Are we still recording?
DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 8:13 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log
