Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group 08-05-2000 Saturday 5:00-8:00PM “If This Goes on…”,”Stories Never Written” and “Logic of Empire”

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

08-05-2000 Saturday 5:00-8:00PM

“If This Goes on…”,”Stories Never Written” and “Logic of Empire”

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You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone has entered the room.

GHMyst has entered the room.

AGplusone has left the room.

GHMyst:AGPLusone is having some system

GHMyst:problem and will be back shortly …I hope

GHMyst:Welcome to the Heinlein Readers Group Chat

KultsiKN has entered the room.


KultsiKN:Hello, all!

GHMyst: I guess we will wait for a few more people

GHMyst: In the meantime….

GHMyst: is this your first time with the Heinlein group?

KultsiKN:Mine? Indeed not.

GHMyst: Were you on Thursday nite?

KultsiKN: 4 a.m. is a bit inconvenient.

SAcademy has entered the room.

KultsiKN:Hello, SA!


BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

SAcademy: Hello

Kultsi. How are you?

GHMyst: Yo, Bill


KultsiKN: Fine,thanks! Second week of vacation…

SAcademy: Oh, that’s nice. Hope you’re enjoying it.

BPRAL22169: I couldn’t remember whether David was going to be able to be here, so I thought I’d check in. apparently both David and Oz are out.l

GHMyst:AGPLusone had a system

GHMyst:problem and will be back shortly

KultsiKN: I am, indeed. A much-needed rest.

GHMyst: Maybe

BPRAL22169:Ok — I will probably leave once the discussion gets going.

GHMyst: GA

GHMyst: And get things started if you wish

GHMyst: I won’t be on ling either

BPRAL22169:There are only four of us at the moment; why don’t we give it 5 minutes or so of free talk before starting the topics?

GHMyst: OK by me….

GHMyst: I was asking if any of the

GHMyst: others are new to the group

BPRAL22169: I asked about the battle tracker from ITGO as a candidate for the “mystery device” last time, but don’t recall if you addressed that

BPRAL22169: I think we’re all old hands.

GHMyst: asked when??

BPRAL22169:When you came in on Thursday.

GHMyst: I must have missed that question

GHMyst: I covered that in my original article

GHMyst: Still a contender, but something of the

BPRAL22169:Kultsi, do you know about Ed’s search for the Heinlein Mystery Device?

KultsiKN: No.

GHMyst: OK I will explain.

KultsiKN: GA


BPRAL22169: Give him the 2 cent version.


GHMyst: heinlein refers to a device described in

GHMyst: one of his early stories which was then

GHMyst: developed by a classmate as an actual

GHMyst: device and used by the Navy during WW2.

GHMyst: He makes similar ref to it in letters in GRUMBLES


AGplusone has entered the room.

GHMyst: No good data, some of it contradictory.

BPRAL22169: (applause!)

GHMyst: All I can really say is that it must be in a story between Aug ’39

GHMyst: and Dec ’41.

BPRAL22169: It’s supposed to be “electronics” as the term was used in 1940, and in the first installment of a story, which seems to point to “If This Goes On–”

GHMyst: The probelm ther is that all of the

GHMyst: candidate devices in ITGO occur in the second installment

BPRAL22169: And the prior stories don’t have anything electronic in them.

GHMyst: You could say Misfit does

BPRAL22169: How’s that? I’m drawing a blank at the moment.

GHMyst: as far as space suits and control room of spacee ship

GHMyst: But you are right in the sense

GHMyst: that ITGO is the best candidate story

GHMyst: I must leave now…..oncoming thunderstorm

AGplusone has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Dave is having trouble with his installation but

BPRAL22169: will continue to work on the problem.

GHMyst has left the room.

KultsiKN: So… the mystery machine was/is, of course, classified…

BPRAL22169: Apparently so.

KultsiKN: Could be an idea in communications as well?

SAcademy: Not necessaarily.

SAcademy: I think it might be.

BPRAL22169: The limiting factor is that it was supposedly breadboarded and tested within a month.

BPRAL22169: Actually in use within a month.

SAcademy: Robert spoke about it, but there was no hint of who or what.

AGplusone has entered the room.

SAcademy: Hello David. Bumped again?

AGplusone: Hear me? Here at last!

BPRAL22169: There you are.

KultsiKN: I think it cannot be a ‘battle tracker’ mentioned earlier.

BPRAL22169: The “installment” reference is a real puzzler, because he didn’t have another installment serial until Sixth Column in early 1941

AGplusone: No, if this is working now, I think there’s something wrong with my software. Something got corrupted … I’ll fix it next week.

BPRAL22169: you (and) Ed are probably right. The battle tracker appeared in the second installment of ITGO.

KultsiKN: You cannot breadboard & start using such in a month.

AGplusone: I think it has to be the ‘battle tracker’ … only thing they’d have been likely to give a medal for development.

BPRAL22169: But it would have fit nicely with the battle communications work Cal Laning did later at the Battle of Surinam Straits.

KultsiKN has left the room.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: When I first read about that, I thought “aha, he’s made a D9M9Z for the Pacific Fleet.” The flagship in Doc Smith’s Lensman series.

AGplusone: And you can breadboard and start using if you’re in the middle of a war in a month if you have to do it.

AGplusone: Is Ed coming back in?

BPRAL22169: Ed’s best guess is the “deadreckoner,” a kind of “inertial tracking device.”

BPRAL22169: I don’t think so — he signed off because there’s a thunderstorm in the vicinity.

SAcademy: Thunderstorms don’t last long around here.

BPRAL22169: he’s in Georgia, IIRC, isn’t he?

AGplusone: One thing I noticed about “Logic of Empire” wasn’t discussed Thursday that might be important …

SAcademy: I think it’s Orlando Fl

BPRAL22169: That’s right. I remember now.

AGplusone: particularily in view of the tone of the ending that people commented on Thursday … the ‘ending’ being a bit depressing and all that … no one really interested in what Wingate’s book has to say …

KultsiKN: OK, David, Bill — I’ll give it some thought.

KultsiKN: Yes?

AGplusone: Heinlein had written Campbell before he wrote or submitted “Logic” and others that he was about finished with writing, mortage paid off, etc., and thinking about what he was going to do … maybe get out of writing all together and do something else.

AGplusone: So, it’s possible I think he let more than a little of his frustration show here …

AGplusone: maybe he felt as an author what he had to say wasn’t completely getting through …

AGplusone: like Wingate.

BPRAL22169: The emotional tone is I think on target, but the timing is off. The correspondence you refer to is later.

KultsiKN: I found ‘Logic’ _so_ depressing, that I ain’t goin’ back anytime soon.

AGplusone: A feeling I also have sometimes with IWFNE … no, I think if you check Gifford’s chronology, you’ll find I’m right.

AGplusone: From the standpoint of submission … perhaps not exactly when written.

BPRAL22169: You may be right — I just checked my chronology and don’t find the relevant correspondence there.

AGplusone: I find “Logic” a really well thought-out story.

BPRAL22169: It was written in October 40 and published in March 40

AGplusone: Moses in the wilderness

BPRAL22169: Sorry, March 41

AGplusone: So that was after the trip with Doc Smith?

BPRAL22169: Yes — that’s early August 40 I believe.

BPRAL22169: I believe that was the Chicago Democratic convention too

AGplusone: He wrote Campbell he had a few more to submit for publication and then he was going to assess his situation … and see.

BPRAL22169: He was very worked up over the war news at that time.

AGplusone: And felt maybe he’d be moving in another direction …

SAcademy: Wasn’t that the time when the Germans were bombarding London with the V-weapons?

AGplusone: I find it similiar in tone to IWFNE because it’s very reflective …

BPRAL22169: I think so — bombing of Coventry about that time, wasn’t it?

SAcademy: I think so.

AGplusone: And Roosevelt was holding off on Lend-Lease until after the election/nomination … about that time …

SAcademy: One of the Carnell kids was born then, prematurely because of the bombing.

BPRAL22169: Everybody recognize the name — Ted Carnell?

KultsiKN: No — does not ring.

AGplusone: Coventry was bombed April 8, 1941 … according to “To Sail … ”

AGplusone: I don

AGplusone: ‘t

BPRAL22169: Pioneer English SF magazine editor and publisher — good friends of Heinlein.

AGplusone: Or maybe that’s wrong (4/8/41) but that is what is in To Sail … that was the first night, wasn’t it?

SAcademy: And it was aafter Dunquerque

BPRAL22169: New Worlds was I think his last magazine — through the 1960’s and he kind of fades out after that. Michael Moorcock picks up from him.

KultsiKN: All the Brits gone fishing tonight, it seems, and their SF is a total blank to me.

SAcademy: Dunquerque had us all depressed.

BPRAL22169: “This was their finest hour.”

SAcademy: Churchill took over after that.

SAcademy: Promising, “Blood,. sweat and teaars”

BPRAL22169: Is that the way it was spelled in newspapers at the time? I’ve always seen it as “Dunkirk.”

SAcademy: I was using the French form

AGplusone: About the only good news that year was Joe Dimaggio hit in 56 games

SAcademy: Well, I don’t remember that!

AGplusone: Which maybe is why such a big thing was made of it.

AGplusone: People just didn’t want to look at serious ‘news’

AGplusone: Next step, the abyss …

SAcademy: The news was all bad from Europe then

BPRAL22169: The lights were going out.

SAcademy: In 41, I think Hitler attacked the USSR

KultsiKN has left the room.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

AGplusone: Yes, … and it looked like he might go all the way, with SeaLion set to go next.

AGplusone: Upton Sinclair wrote “Between Two Worlds” that year … who’s read it, and what was it about?

AGplusone: Never mind … just wondered.

KultsiKN: Haven’t you, either?

BPRAL22169: Upton Sinclair wrote over 100 books. i’ve read about 11 of them. that’s enough.

AGplusone: No … not as much of him as I’d like. I noticed that he had another novel “Dragon’s Teeth” published in ’42 … and wondered what he may have been writing about around then, considering RAH’s association with him.

BPRAL22169: I think the Lanny Budd series was after WWII; he was pretty much a “has been” in the early 40’s.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, I wanted to mention to AIM users — do not touch the ESCAPE key, as it will dump you out of the room.

KultsiKN: ‘Twas my connection that dumped me…

AGplusone: Labor laws were the last ‘big thing’ in the late 1930s … the FLSA (wage-hour law) was upheld in ’41, the Wagner Act upheld in ’37 … all very important from the standpoint of one way to look at the ‘theme’ in Logic of Empire …

AGplusone: ‘corporate slavery’ as someone put it in the chat Thursday

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi everyone

SAcademy: Yes, the time of “company towns,” and that sort of slavery

KultsiKN: Hi, Jane!

AGplusone: Evenin, Jane. How’s the birthday party going?

ddavitt: Just got back; have to get Eleanor fed and off to bed so I will be in and out.

ddavitt: What story are we on?

AGplusone: Talking a little about Logic

ddavitt: I still think the rebel town had links to MIAHM……

ddavitt: It was an interesting set up

AGplusone: I agree … and maybe with whatever the set up may have been in Farnham

ddavitt: Yes….

AGplusone: (the one in Ponce’s world, not in England … )

ddavitt: It’s tantalisong because we don’t know their fate

ddavitt: Did they redress the inequities? Did the crop become economically non viable?

AGplusone: But it’s got to be a “Stone Pillow” kind of world …

ddavitt: What happened once Scudder took over and space travel stopped ( from the US at least)

ddavitt: They were isolated tho; still dependent on the home world?

AGplusone: And pretty soon Henry IV is going to send the knyghts out to put down the revolt of the ploughmen …

AGplusone: I’d think pretty fair chance of a colony left to its own devices reverting to a lower level of serfdom … for a bit before the revolution against the charter companies …

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: I got the impression it was one company but is that likely?

ddavitt: Hi Will

geeairmoe2: Hi, Jane & all.

AGplusone: [do you know that the 14th century alliterative poem, “The Vision of William” commonly known as “Piers Ploughman” is an allegorical story of the Ploughmen’s Revolt and Repression … first strike in history of the English-speaking people … hi, Will … and where Logic of Empire is heading in my view.

AGplusone: Sure, why not … the Virginia Company … was just one company for a while.

ddavitt: Don’t know that poem. tho it does sound vaguely familiar

SAcademy: Read it a thousand years ago

ddavitt: A whole planet and only one company sees the possibilities?

ddavitt: Plus, why no earthly governments involved?

AGplusone: Ploughmen strike over no wage increases since the Doomsday Book and Henry IV puts it down …

AGplusone: Maybe the UN (or some world government) charters

AGplusone: only one at first, like the East Inida Company …

AGplusone: India

KultsiKN: If you got a big enough company, it’s relatively cheap to buy governments by the dozen.

ddavitt: I suppose we don’t know exactly how long it’s been going on

AGplusone: And an entire system of little companies build up to do business with the main franchisor

AGplusone: providing labor, etc., just like the “coyotes” we have out here in California (and elsewhere)

ddavitt: It wouldn’t have been that long before MC and the Libby drive; so in a century or so they’ll have a galaxy to choose from; hot muggy Venus may fall into the category of not worth the bother

AGplusone: and since everyone is signed to a “yellow dog” (another 1930s reference) contract that makes them a ‘contractor’ you have what you have … freely contracting clients as Wingate says.

SAcademy: Oh, n, I got one of those yellow dog contracts from UK just the other day.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

ddavitt: I maintain they were not slaves.

ddavitt: Not in a good position; but not slaves

AGplusone: With “hard but fair” terms, sorta like the publishing companies offer writers. Work for me for seven years as a client Jane, and I’ll guarantee you’ll change your tune

ddavitt: πŸ™‚

ddavitt: But slaves carries different connotations; for one thing they weren’t willing

AGplusone: Will, how have you been lately?

ddavitt: What about children born to female clients?

ddavitt: Would they be ‘free:, Venusian citizens?

ddavitt: Who would feed and educate them?

AGplusone: No more willing than the mineworkers in West Virginia … book doesn’t cover that, do it?

ddavitt: They still, as adults, freely entered into a contract. Whole different set up than slavery

AGplusone: Suppose they get to be indentured apprentices to the farmers when they get high enough to chop crops.

ddavitt: The end result may be similar but it still doesn’t feel the same.

ddavitt: maybe…one wonders what drove the clients to sign up; conditions on earth must have been bad

Major oz has entered the room.

ddavitt: No wonder Scudder seemed such a saviuor

AGplusone: It might, especially in a depressed labor market when you finish that apprentisewhip, er, -ship, when you turn 21.

Major oz: yo, all

ddavitt: Hi Oz

AGplusone: Hi, Oz …

AGplusone: Talking about that drug … remind you of anything?

ddavitt: Interesting to contrast these rebels with those of BP

ddavitt: They seemed to have a loyalty to Venus that is missing in LOE

Major oz: Just on for a bit — still at bro’s house // “that” drug??

AGplusone: What was the drug they all were taking in the corporate rat-race in the 1950s … the then equivalent of Prozac?

AGplusone: In Logic of Empire, Oz, everyone takes a drug at night to ‘sleep’ ….

ddavitt: Rhira

Major oz: downers at night, uppers in the morning………..

AGplusone: and, of course, gets “another day older and deeper in debt” to the company store.

AGplusone: which offers it cheaply to them

ddavitt: Yes; the drug takes half a day’s pay; VERY expensive

Major oz: valium ??

ddavitt: Like the frog jumping out of the circle…

ddavitt: will never reach the end

AGplusone: Yeah, Milltown, maybe before that.

Major oz: Coffee and Humps did it for me.

ddavitt: Heinlein’s characters take a whiff of “fly right”

AGplusone: Isn’t it funny they’d name a prescription drug “Mill Town”? Someone had an evil sense of humor in the 1950s, or a terrible unconscious irony occurred.

ddavitt: ?

Major oz: We talkin’ ’bout LOE, here?

ddavitt: Yes.

Major oz: hoka

Major oz: like soma in BNW

AGplusone: As if no one ever read Dickens’ “Hard Times”

ddavitt: Can’t stand Dickens; apart from Christmas carol

AGplusone: Oh, Dickens is love-ly … and ironic as hell, sometimes …

ddavitt: Acquired taste…

Major oz: Agree, Jane — don’t like him at all

ddavitt: I have to go munch; brb

Major oz: eating for 2, donchaknow

AGplusone: Dickens was very anti-establishment …

Major oz: Dickens was a whiner that didn’t see where his po-folks came FROM

AGplusone: And “Logic” is very much in the Dickens vein I think …

Major oz: Right — my least liked work of the Master

Major oz: …….which still places it head and shoulders above most of the rest.

AGplusone: Don’t agree … I don’t like many of his characters … but the thought he expressed was necessary, and intensely popular, much like Twain …

SAcademy: Never knew Robert to read Dickens

Major oz: They were dillatentes — limosine liberals

AGplusone: A ‘rabble-rouser’ in many ways …

AGplusone: True … very middle class writer …

Major oz: If Dickens were here today, he would have written It Takes a Village.

AGplusone: but, the thought was critical of his times and necessary.

AGplusone: I don’t hink so …

AGplusone: He’d be writing versions of the Gray Flannel Jungle

AGplusone: Philip Wylie stuff …

Major oz: …an they wouldn’t sell

AGplusone: if there’s anyone writing that today

AGplusone: but in the thirties and forties they might have

Major oz: No one is, because it isn’t / wasn’t true.

Major oz: It was all Pltemptkin

AGplusone: and fifties …

Major oz: CD lamented the factories, but had never been on the farm/

AGplusone: Grapes of Wrath?

AGplusone: Steinbeck farm?

Major oz: Dickens had no knowledge that the farms, whence cameth all his “victims” were orders of magnitude worse than the factories he loathed.

ddavitt: Melanie in Gone With the Wind said he wasn’t a gentleman

Major oz: For the workers it was a tremendous step up.

AGplusone: I agree with you on the characterization, Oz. Dickens wrote stereotypes … unreal, sometimes chariactures (sp?)

ddavitt: Heinlein did use “Barkis is willing” in PM didn’t he?

AGplusone: He did indeed.

Major oz: PM

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: Puppet masters

AGplusone: So he was at least familiar with CD, as were we all supposed to be ….

Major oz: hokay

AGplusone: Barkis is Willing is from Copperfield

ddavitt: Bit like Shakespeare; don’t have to read the plays to know the quotes

AGplusone: But they did in the 20s and 30s … read ’em all.

AGplusone: No television

ddavitt: I did read most of David Copperfield as a child; maybe that’s what put me off

Major oz: Anyhoo…….I saw the two guys in LOE as playboy drunks, betting on their respective horses.

geeairmoe2: With everything else it might present for thought, the message from LOE that still dominates my memory is (from first reading it as a teen): Getting drunk can have some really serious unforeseen consequences.

AGplusone: That’s like reading Swift … same thing happens.

ddavitt: Sam did seem to have a job tho

Major oz: In earlier days, they would have been tow plantation owners betting on their slaves.

ddavitt: Worked on a ship as something

ddavitt: Did hull inspection

AGplusone: A bit like the Unheavenly Twins … and the switch … why I likened it to Captains Corageous, too.

ddavitt: Not a total playboy

ddavitt: Yes, I think CC does relate

ddavitt: Go in boys, come out men

AGplusone: There has to be a Jack London story with that sort of plot out there somewhere …

ddavitt: One of the classic plots…

Major oz: ST ?

AGplusone: A “Buck” with a human protagonist

KultsiKN: That’s the plot our army uses…

AGplusone: Troopers does relate

Major oz: ?

AGplusone: Call of the Wild

Major oz: What’s that Kultsi

Major oz: ?

AGplusone: A Shanghi’ed plot with a twist …

KultsiKN: Go in boys, come out men.

Major oz: Ohhhhh

Major oz: The mil has always used that, haven’t they?

Major oz: of every country?

AGplusone: Always … one of the three great lies … it’ll make you a man, my son …

ddavitt: Private Benjamin

AGplusone: sometimes.

ddavitt: Works for girls too πŸ™‚

KultsiKN: Of course. I just rather they stayed girls.

Major oz: …….and 2): we’re here to help, and 3): we’re glad to have you

AGplusone: LOL …

ddavitt: Didn’t like Goldie in uniform huh?

AGplusone: and 4) go see the Chaplain, he’ll help you.

Major oz: Or Demi Moore

Major oz: What a travesty

ddavitt: GI Jane? Didn’t see that one

GHMyst has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ed, lightning die down?

GHMyst: Yes

Major oz: didn’t miss anything………Oliver bites his nails every time he remembers he didn’t do it.

AGplusone: Thanks for helping earlier …

GHMyst: Glad to help

Major oz: …….glad to have you πŸ™‚

GHMyst: Wher are we??

Major oz: ……sorry……..

AGplusone: Someone said, they’d hate to see anyone try to write any of the three stories never written … does everyone agree with that?

GHMyst: I’ll agree with that

geeairmoe2: Agree.

ddavitt: Anyone but the man himself of course…yes.

GHMyst: It’s the same principle

AGplusone: I’d actually love to read “Sound of His Wings” … done well ….

GHMyst: as why did they remake that movie?

ddavitt: And he didn’t seem keen so maybe best to let them lie

AGplusone: Or “The Stone Pillow” …

AGplusone: The first Huxley would make a fascinating story to me.

GHMyst: Huxley??

AGplusone: The original ‘true believer’ who discovers he’s an agnostic … so far as the prophet is concerned and starts the cabel

Major oz: I’ll just have to lurk here……..never read that.

GHMyst: that doesn’t even fall into the never

AGplusone: RAH sketched out that he’d have written the long, hard story of starting the insurgency and calling it “The Stone Pillow” ….

GHMyst: written category…mor elike

GHMyst: never mentioned

GHMyst: OK

AGplusone: But he hints at the sort of leader it would have to be by giving Colonel Huxley that name, doesn’t he?

ddavitt: Are there any notes over and above what’s in SNW?

ddavitt: Must have thought about it to have a name for the widow who gives Scudder her money

GHMyst: maybe in the Heinlein archives at UCSC

AGplusone: Dunno … some claim Free Men is ‘high-graded’

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: In his essay about SNW Joseph major says Heinlein may have felt he couldn’t do justice to the theme; not sure about that

AGplusone: The short story or novela in Expanded Universe …

ddavitt: Yes; Free Men is a stand alone; would make sense for it to be from those origins.

GHMyst: If I just drop off line again — blame Mother Nature

geeairmoe2: In the June 1996 Fantasy & Science Fiction there was a purported bit of The Stone Pillow found when Analog moved to new offices.

Major oz: Didn’t I read somewhere that He so hated Scudder that He was afraid he would get to emotional and not write what he considered a good story?

ddavitt: That was a hoax wasn’t it. April fool?

AGplusone: some claim it’s maybe a bare bones outline of part of the loooong story of “The Stone Pillow” … yes, that’s part of the “concerning stories never written” essay, Oz

ddavitt: Thought it had a contemporary reference which proved it was fake?

AGplusone: But more properly he wrote he hated Scudder too much ….

Major oz: …….maybe I did read it………just don’t remember

ddavitt: Yet he said that Scudder was sincere…

Major oz: So was Jim Jones

ddavitt: Was it Scudder or his successors who were the worst?

ddavitt: I see him as being naive puppet in some ways

GHMyst: Don’t forget that according to wjhat

Major oz: I would have to believe it was the successors

GHMyst: was in SNW it says that the next election

GHMyst: was never held after Scudder came to

ddavitt: By the time of ITGO the Prophet is corrupt

GHMyst: ppower

Major oz: Given a kingdom, it is hard to be benevolent.

ddavitt: But how long did Scudder live after the US was disnamtled?

ddavitt: Can’t see Scudder with a harem

GHMyst: That’s a toughie

ddavitt: I bet, like Foster in SIASL, he was bumped off

GHMyst: we don’t have a timeline of prophets

ddavitt: By a power hungry group or deputy

AGplusone has left the room.

ddavitt: ITGo is what, about 60, 70 years later?

KultsiKN: Very likely, Jane, given the human nature.

ddavitt: Charismatic but childlike in some ways. Easilt manipulated.

ddavitt: So, perhaps not totally to be hated; feared and pitied maybe

KultsiKN: We are given a hint of the duration by Lazarus in TEFL…

GHMyst: good point

ddavitt: Besides, we don’t know how bad things had become in the US; maybe it was needed to cleanse the nation and get it to the point of the Covenant ( if that was such an improvement)

KultsiKN: How long was he on Mars?

ddavitt: Not sure..

GHMyst: this presents itself as a very

GHMyst: interesting topic to research

Major oz: What was the status of the rest of the worlc\?

Major oz: world

ddavitt: looking on in bemusement

GHMyst: business as usual

ddavitt: Which always bothers me. Wouldn’t they send in the UN troops?

ddavitt: But in the 40’s US not such a dominant economic force maybe?

Major oz: Prehaps soverignty still had value

GHMyst: in the revised veersion, isn’t there a

Major oz:

ddavitt: Now, they/you just couldn’t become isolated without any protest

Major oz: me, not you

GHMyst: comments about not expecteing help fromor weapons from other countries

geeairmoe2: I think ITGO was written before there was a UN.

GHMyst: you are right

AGplusone has entered the room.

Major oz: Yes, but……..

geeairmoe2: Written during ‘isolationist’ US.

ddavitt: Lyle thinks the British eat babies; totally closed borders

GHMyst: 1939 .. appeared in 1940

Major oz: didn’t it envision something like the UN?

ddavitt: Same in puppet masters; US deals with the threat single handed.

KultsiKN: Blocking communications works both ways.

ddavitt: Have to consider time of writing always; but it’s difficult as time goes by

Major oz: So we can assume that the Scudderites were just a US problem……the rest of the world was good or bad but unimportant to the story?

ddavitt: Scudder wouldn’t want outside influences when he was re writing history

ddavitt: Yes, wonder if they had space travel?

geeairmoe2: Just like the communist bottling up Russia.

ddavitt: Just like I think, and the revisionist texts

ddavitt: “secrecy is the keystone of all tyranny. Not force but secrecy…censorship’ says lyle

geeairmoe2: As mentioned in EU(?) when the Russian guide kept insisting those Balkan republics had “always” been part of the Soviet Empire.

AGplusone has left the room.

ddavitt: Yes!

ddavitt: Lyle thinks President before Scudder was an emissary of satan

ddavitt: Well…..can’t be wrong all the time I suppose

KultsiKN: Lol


KultsiKN: Me? <<<>>> Is that better?

geeairmoe2: With what we’ve had the last 7 1/2 years, can’t argue with that.

ddavitt: Thank you

Major oz: ……and where are we?

KultsiKN: How do I get the impression that the current prez is not universally liked…

ddavitt: Yet, if it was only 80 years, there should have been people who still _remembered_

GHMyst: :-\

ddavitt: Hve to put E to bed; brb

KultsiKN: If you cannot air your opinions, what can you do?

Major oz: As one who agrees with you……….

GHMyst: Goodnight, all

GHMyst has left the room.

Major oz: I see John Lyle’s learning curve as being identical to Juan Rico’s

Major oz: Results somewhat situational, but process very similar.

Major oz:

KultsiKN: Haven’t read ST recently, but JL’s learning curve is somewhat classic: get in trouble b/c a piece of …. and then learn very fast. πŸ˜‰

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: … crawling back through the Boskonian War Fleet ….

Major oz: welcome back, Mac user

geeairmoe2: John Lyle had a more difficult transition — he had to face that much of his world was a lie.

Major oz: agree

geeairmoe2: Rico had a world worth fighting to keep; Lyle had to fight to change a world.

Major oz: agree there too

Major oz: and JL was more niave than JR

Major oz: e

KultsiKN: Lyle was also riding the wave, he had no idea of the big pic.

Major oz: You don’t think so?

Major oz: Even later on?

AGplusone: time to weed out the system. It’s punishing me my birthday yesterday and my birthday dinner Thursday night instead of being with you all … :-)…

ddavitt: Happy Birthday David!

Major oz: HB old man

Major oz: Didn’t know lawyers had birthdays

AGplusone: tanks, Oz …. two more years and the big six-oh like youse.

KultsiKN: HB, David!

Major oz: 61 two weeks ago

ddavitt: Surrounded by venerable founts of wisdom πŸ™‚

AGplusone: Ah, shucks! Never catchya then. Thank you everyone

AGplusone: founts of something anyway

Major oz: ……or as my #2 son says: “…..by wants of fizzdom”

KultsiKN: Gosh, David, you and me on the same ten!

ddavitt: Am I the youngster who has to learn better then? Humph!

Major oz: Perhaps, Jane, but you are improving the breed as we speak.

Major oz: perhaps I should say: enriching

ddavitt: Just put one tired grouchy bear to bed; had her first sleepover last night

ddavitt: Which means no sleep, all of them awake at 6.00 am and i’m yawning

ddavitt: Does the escpae in the plane seem incongrous with what we know of lyle?

ddavitt: Or did he have hidden potential?

Major oz: Pretty independent for a genetic follower

ddavitt: He was no Joe Gilead of course…

AGplusone: About Lyle … he is quite a nebish, ain’t he, lucky though … he have died protecting the Prophet otherwise … and we’ll all pray to our bishop for an appointment for him (unless she’s another girl) to West Point, or Sandhurst, or wherever Canadiens go …

AGplusone: Jane.

ddavitt: If you mean my baby two, she’s a girl

ddavitt: And yes, she’ll be canadian. weird thought!

ddavitt: Dual nationality of course.

KultsiKN: You see, they’ve taken all fun out of getting children…

AGplusone: Ah, then praying won’t do us any good will it.

Major oz: They go to Sandhurst, also.

ddavitt: Going off at a tangent, why did Heinlein destroy carlsbad caverns in ITGO?

ddavitt: ( I enjoyed it Kultis )

geeairmoe2: Because it was there.

ddavitt: Why not just use it as the base?

Major oz: he destroyed it?…….I unemembered that.

ddavitt: Eahquake of 96 destroyed it

AGplusone: They can also go to West Point … under weird circumstances. [maybe he hated bats]

ddavitt: Was there one in 1996? Was H prophetic?

AGplusone: Gave the cabal a way to hide their headquarters?

ddavitt: No; get the impression that the hideout is in another set of caverns. Lyle says he can’t belive Carlsbad was bigger

AGplusone: I always felt that Carlsbad was linked somehow to that place but nearby

Major oz: …..and the Mormons are close by

ddavitt: Then says he’s seen photos of CC before the quake destroyed them.

ddavitt: Wgere is CC?

AGplusone: It’s all limestone

Major oz: I saw it as being in the 4-corners area.

ddavitt: Is it in quake country?

KultsiKN: ?

geeairmoe2: New Mexico?

ddavitt: Wouldn’t tourists be a problem?

Major oz: Not quake country

Major oz: little ones on the east side of rockies but not in the basin

ddavitt: For the fictional caverns I mean; tourism wouldn’t have stopped altogether would it?

ddavitt: Hard to keep the existence of the caverns a secret if they were that big and widespread

ddavitt: Did H ever go spelunking? If that’s the right word/

KultsiKN: Very easy to keep things hidden in _large_ caves.

AGplusone: I dunno … goin into the bowels of the Earth is probably agin’ Scripture

Major oz: I had the feeling that they discovered the “hole in the wall” of the BC&SK era.

ddavitt: The descriptions of the caverns sound ‘real” from other books I’ve read about pot holing

ddavitt: ? Oz?

AGplusone: I mean Look what happened to that Italian guy, Dantie …

Major oz: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

ddavitt: Oh!

geeairmoe2: My sense of ITGO was that the people didn’t have the opportunity to vacation. I don’t know that dictatorships have healthy economies, theocratic or otherwise. If people traveled, it was probably to ‘acceptable’ spiritual places.

KultsiKN: There’s also Tom Sawyer…

Major oz: OT: the firefighters at Mesa Verde have discovered to previously undiscovered sets or ruins.

ddavitt: Cake crumbs to you too!

Major oz: two

Major oz: of

ddavitt: Interesting!

Major oz: …..still using my brother’s keyboard

KultsiKN has left the room.

geeairmoe2: Are you your brothers keyboarder?

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: Read a Nevada Barr park ranger mystery set there; and one where she goes caving.

Major oz: LOL

Major oz: nasty

AGplusone: Carlsbad is in the Guadallupe Mountains near the Mexican border in NMex and obviously would run under into Mexico just like the Cabal’s caves

ddavitt: So maybe H was using them in a way…

Major oz: But the Mormons were a long way off.

Major oz: I got the feeling that all the caves in “the west” were somehow connected

Major oz: …….artistic license?

AGplusone: Mormons in NMex and Ariz … ask Randy Jost

ddavitt: Do people think the cabal had a mandate to change things?

Major oz: sure, and in Micronesia

Major oz: mandate?

ddavitt: I mean, lots of people may have preferred things the way they were?

Major oz: how would they aquire a mandate?

ddavitt: What right did a handful have to upset everything?

ddavitt: Quite.

AGplusone: By vote, or by fiat …

ddavitt: In Sixth Column it was more clear cut; US had been invavded but Scudder was voted in

Major oz: In 1776, only 35% supported the revolution, 40% agianst, the rest didn’t care.

ddavitt: That’s democracy for you

Major oz: “we few, we happy few………”

ddavitt: Bit like the revoulution in MIAHM’

Major oz: agreed

Major oz: started by three meats and one silicon

ddavitt: A few people decided they didn’t like things and secretly overthrew the status quo; what right did they have?

geeairmoe2: sounds like a pizza

ddavitt: πŸ™‚

ddavitt: OK, they knew that food was running out which gave them a good reason…but it’s still a bit…bossy

Major oz: I know it is a serious question, but “right” is a null concept in this context.

AGplusone: they declared Constitution had been abrogated by the Prophet … winner’s prerogative and that was a Constitutional Convention whether they called it that or not

ddavitt: I suppose they no longer had legitimate means of protest or change

Major oz: there never was any

ddavitt: But were they following the will of the majority?

Major oz: the fact that they even thought of it is astounding

Major oz: they didn’t care

ddavitt: I’m playing devil’s advocate…but do you see what I mean?

Major oz: as they should not have

Major oz: yes

Major oz: right has no meaning here

ddavitt: Why?

AGplusone: Nothing illegitimate about a revolution, Jane. Or do they teach you otherwise …?

Major oz: rights are only those which the society says you have.


Major oz: they did not accept the society

geeairmoe2: The ‘rightness’ of a revolution is decided after the fighting when its conclusion brings about a situation not onerous enough for new revolutionaires to immediately emerge to try to cause new changes.

Major oz: therefore rights had no meaning

ddavitt: Wonder if there was a backlash Will?

Major oz: qed

AGplusone: Yes … “Coventry”

ddavitt: It turned on the fact that the people realsied they’d been fooled by fake miracles…no one likes to look foolish.

Major oz: “the peeeepul” had no play in he revolution

ddavitt: I doubt the religious feelings went all that deep for most people

ddavitt: It was safer to play along

AGplusone: No, that was the cause of the day.

Major oz: The cabal did it all

ddavitt: But some were like Lyle not Zeb; true devout believers

AGplusone: The Lexington, the Concord

ddavitt: What must they have felt? Even John still believed in scudder for a long time after joining Cabal

Major oz: Sheep don’t care who the sheppard is…….they will still be sheep

ddavitt: That’s what let the cabla succeed

AGplusone: The execution of Rizal

Major oz: The sheppards can fight, argue, or agree……the sheep just munch along

AGplusone: 99.9 % of people just want to fill their rice bowl tomorrow

Major oz: But assuming a “good” sheppard gains control, then tries to upgrade the sheep to human………..

Major oz: big job

Major oz: Jefferson tried it

ddavitt: Is that what the covenant did? Or was that a failure; look at events in MC

Major oz: So did Teddy

ddavitt: polite facade soon fell away to expose the teeth then

Major oz: covenant or cabal, Jane?

AGplusone: Look at events in Cat, eventually any system gets corrupted …

ddavitt: Covenant

KultsiKN: Normal mob psychology: a group different is one hated.

Major oz: hokay

AGplusone: You either fix it, or you emigrate

Major oz: you mean the follow on story……….

ddavitt: But after years of Covenant that should have been trained out of them….

AGplusone: ‘trained’

Major oz: what should?

ddavitt: Agression; but we know it never will be.

ddavitt: That’s why covenant is a facde

ddavitt: facade, fake, temporary cover.

KultsiKN: Playing the system pays off — why _truly_ believe in the new system when it’s easier to pretend?

Major oz: I don’t see that that was the purpose of the Covenant.

AGplusone: let a trained dog run wild and you get Buck (or wolf food)

ddavitt: When going gets tough, ploughshares into swords time again

Major oz: of course…….but I think I missed our point

ddavitt: It was intended to protect; didn’t work for the Howards

AGplusone: [or cat food if it’s a chihuahua]

Major oz: were they in the same timeline

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: I think it isn’t a workable system for humans;

ddavitt: Yes!

Major oz: what?

ddavitt: Covenant.

AGplusone: ‘training’?

ddavitt: You know; Covenrty

ddavitt: Well, indoctrination then

Major oz: I don’t agree that it’s purpose was to stop aggresivenss

ddavitt: Then why exile for someone who punches someone?

Major oz: stop “aggreSSION” maybe

Major oz: but not aggressiveNESS

ddavitt: If they have a wrong thought they trot off to be phschoanalysed

ddavitt: sp!!

AGplusone: I dunno … you had America, India, Australia … it worked for you. No revolution in 1832

ddavitt: That sounds like self training to me and sounds very much unlike what the Cabal would’ve wanted

Major oz: I saw it as LL’s one true sin: that of intentionally harming someone.

Major oz: that was the Covenent

Major oz: ….and its punishment

ddavitt: But the cabal metamorphed into the time of the covenant; and very quickly too

Major oz: hokay

Major oz: I must have glossed over that aspect of it.

ddavitt: That works based on the original magazine story but not extrapolating from the book version IMO

AGplusone: Well, the “bright young men” keep trying, don’they?

ddavitt: Who wasn’t rooting for david in Coventry?

Major oz: …….and they always will

Major oz: I kinda liked the anarchy

ddavitt: Don’t you remember the Angels were there too Oz?

Major oz: Also, if IFGO was only in the US, was Coventry also?

ddavitt: Think so

Major oz: What was the rest of the world doing during Coventry?

ddavitt: Why would they do anything?

AGplusone: Just because Mr Twain gets up and orates you don’t think they are going to stop trying to manage our thoughts?

Major oz: And why was there such a place——why not ship them to Canada?

Major oz: πŸ™‚

ddavitt: It says there is a Barrier between Coventry and US

AGplusone: Or habits … Big Nanny is watching !

ddavitt: maybe it is canada

ddavitt: No, I think they just fenced off a bit and shoved the malcontents in there until they shaped up

ddavitt: Luna on Earth sort of thing

Major oz: but, for serious: there is the US, the rest of the world, and this “place” called Coventry

AGplusone: Like sending ’em to Virginia!

Major oz: Why did the US need it…..why not just throw them out.

ddavitt: It’s just a bit of US; it’s a big country after all

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: maybe the whole world has gone over to the Covenant by then?

ddavitt: Or just a plot hole?

Major oz: My point

AGplusone: They had, hadn’t they …

Major oz: don’t know

Major oz: can’t tell

Major oz: sounds unnecessary

AGplusone: Isn’t Ford the World Administrator?

Major oz: and why not escape from Coventry out the “other side” to go to Brazil or China or something?

ddavitt: Mackinnon is offered two alternatibes; Coventry or mind adjustement; not moving to Europe

Major oz: see above

KultsiKN: I don’t think the rest of the world would be happy about the Covenant after almost a century of incommunicado.

ddavitt: maybe that’s cruel and unusual?

AGplusone: Europe wouldn’t give our criminal a visa

ddavitt: Not being funny but there is a distinct flavour of outside the US here be dragons in this time of writing

ddavitt: He punched someone for heaven’s sake; not a mass murderer!

ddavitt: If the rest of the world wasn’t Covenant bound, they’d welcome david

AGplusone: Any more than we allow visas in theory to Europe’s criminals … assault is a felony

AGplusone: If it’s prosecuted that way

geeairmoe2: People who still believed in the Prophet went to Conventry. “There’s still a colony up in the hills to the north.” according to Magee. Also says the US at the time had three different governmenents claiming jurisdiction.

ddavitt: I don’t think that would stop someone being an immigrant tho

AGplusone: Oh, try the INS these days, Jane

ddavitt: What stories are we doing next btw? Seem to have wandered a bit…

Major oz: Intresting how many threads this can generate. But I find the triad: US, Coventry, and the “rest of the world” an endlessly fascinating subject to pursue.

ddavitt: Well, they let us in

AGplusone: I thought Bill wanted to do the Heinlein Society

ddavitt: Oh yes, i forgot

ddavitt: Any progress or news on that?

AGplusone: next meeting before ChiCon

AGplusone: That’s what the meeting will discuss

ddavitt: ‘Kay

AGplusone: Progress

Major oz: Our own Cabal?

ddavitt: πŸ™‚

KultsiKN: Of course. πŸ˜‰

AGplusone: Yes! First we make rules [ …. No Gurls allowed] πŸ˜‰

ddavitt: What!!

AGplusone: 😎

ddavitt: Smile when you say that…

AGplusone: πŸ˜€

KultsiKN: Prefer mature wimmen.

geeairmoe2: Without gurls, who’ll serve the refreshments and clean up?

Major oz:

KultsiKN: 1) Jani 2) You.

AGplusone: Wimmen is always better … last longer … you gotta point there, Gee!

ddavitt: On behalf of jani

ddavitt: Where is jani anyway?

ddavitt: She usually makes the sat chat doesn’t she? And Sean?

AGplusone: Of course you gotta realize that “Fldax” is Executive … may be problems with the “no gurls” rule.

ddavitt: Go laurie!

KultsiKN: Haven’t seen Jani or Stephen online for days.

ddavitt: No…

AGplusone: Not since last week

ddavitt: Some old faces popping up tho’ labert for one

AGplusone: Well, now’s the time for football to start, Oz

ddavitt: Once addicted to heinlein chatting there is no cure…

AGplusone: Nice to see Labert Thursday

ddavitt: American football i think you mean….

Major oz: Yes, and my Bro’ family are Eagles fans

ddavitt: But the REAL football starts soon, yes

Major oz: yeah, not foosball

ddavitt: Ha!

Major oz: I’m really a Manchester United fan

SAcademy: Nite all. Go Niners!

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: AArrgh!!!

AGplusone: Saturday, August 5, 2000, 5:02:51 PM, PDT, closing log

Major oz: when I was in the islands, all I could get was BBC and became a MU fan

AGplusone: Night all! See you on AFH

ddavitt: Why do all people who don’t know mucg about football support MU?

Major oz: habit

ddavitt: Night !

Major oz: nite all

Major oz: pat that baby, Jane

ddavitt: My david is a Liverpoll fan; deadly enemies of MU

KultsiKN: Night!

geeairmoe2: bye, all.

ddavitt: Will do. see you all.

Major oz has left the room.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: Hope Dave Wright’s logging worked! Night Dave

AGplusone: And my regards to Finland, Kultsi

KultsiKN: Hee — hee! I can save this, too…

AGplusone: Have a nice morning

KultsiKN: Thank you, David!

AGplusone: Please do. Back up would help

KultsiKN: Done!

AGplusone: Off to the football game! πŸ™‚

KultsiKN: G’night all!

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone has left the room.

Final End of Discussion Log

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