Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 02-07-2002 9:00 P.M. EST Heinlein’s Mysteries

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 02-07-2002 9:00 P.M. EST

Heinlein’s Mysteries

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat

Theme: Heinlein’s Mysteries

Dates and times: Thursday, February 7, 9 PM to midnight, EST and Saturday, February 9, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.

Chat Host: Agplusone

Place: AIM chatroom “Heinlein Readers Group chat”

Recommended Reading: The short story “They Do It With Mirrors” in the collection Expanded Universe; the novella “The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag” collected in The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag or in The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein; and the novel The Cat That Walked Through Walls.

One of my brief essays follows. Caveat lector, as always.

The writing of science fiction and fantasy didn’t evolve in a vacuum, springing from nowhere for no reason. The generally speculative fiction writings of Robert Heinlein we read, study and appreciate here, are self-described by their author as stories of character development. Heinlein reasoned early in his career stories of character development were of more enjoyment to him to write and more utility to readers than other sorts of tales. He also believed the speculative fiction genre, his term for both science fiction and fantasy, offered more power or utility to him than any other genre because it allowed more freedom from market conventions and publisher censorship than others.

Science fiction and fantasy didn’t begin in the 20th century. Earlier, there were popular stories by Kipling, Verne, even Cyrano de Bergerac and Swift; and writing of them continued through the turn of this last century with Wells, Bellamy, and others. But speculative fiction transformed itself mightily in popularity when its major publication venue became the newsstand pulp magazines — a rough equivalent of todays paperback market. At the same time, during the 1920s and -30s, that speculative fiction was being transformed in the pulps, there was another genre greatly changing in that same low-level and disregarded, but freer strata of publishing. It had been written earlier as well. Poe, Twain, Collins, Doyle, others, all tried their hands on it. This was mystery writing. For every Astounding Science Fiction magazine, there was another pulp just as popular and as good down a few places on the newsstand rack named something like Black Mask. And it became far more popular than science fiction, remaining so today.

A well-known, very successful mystery writer of that time once noted that mystery stories had a certain power of their own that appealed to him. He didn’t think this power was “entirely a matter of violence … certainly not a matter of fine writing … [n]or was it because of any great originality of plot or character.” He suggested, “[p]ossibly it was the smell of fear which these stories managed to generate. Their characters lived in a world gone wrong, a world in which, long before the atom bomb, civilization had created the machinery of its own destruction, and was learning to use it with all the moronic delight of a gangster trying out his first machine gun. …”

Opening with a setting is one way to generate fear. My favorite opening passage, a very well-known one from the mystery genre, is this:

There was a desert wind blowing that night. It was one of those hot dry
Santa Anas that come down through the mountain passes and curl your hair
and make your nerves jump and your skin itch. On nights like that every
booze party ends in a fight. Meek little wives feel the edge of the
carving knife and study their husbands necks. Anything can happen. . . .
–from Raymond Chandler’s “Red Wind,” at page 7
in The Midnight Chandler (1971, Houghton Mifflin, Boston)

Try reading this, and compare:

That Sunday, the sun floated bright and hot over the Los Angeles basin,
pushing people to the beaches and the parks and into backyard pools to
escape the heat. The air buzzed with the nervous palsy it gets when the
wind freight-trains in from the desert, dry as a bone, and cooking the
hillsides into tar-filled kindling that can snap into flames hot enough
to melt an auto body.
The Verdugo Mountains above Glendale were burning. . . .

I delight in finding obvious literary acknowledgements of those who have gone before us. I think this is one of them. It’s from the opening chapter of the novel L.A. Requiem (1999, Ballantine, NYC), and its that same damned Santa Ana wind Raymond Chandler experienced.

L.A. Requiem is written by Robert Crais. Mr. Crais may be a guest author for an RAH-AIM reading group chat in the immediate future.

For this reason, and because we’ve never directly considered Robert Heinlein’s use of the mystery genre in our previous chats, I’ve chosen this next meetings theme.

More about Mr. Crais later (you may look ahead to his writings if you’re not familiar with them by visiting his website at http://www.robertcrais.com/ and note the photos and comments by him particularly at http://www.robertcrais.com/worldheinlein.htm ); but while we’re awaiting the final word on scheduling, we can explore the conventions of mystery story writing, Robert Heinlein’s works that make use of those conventions and see if there’s greater or lesser differences between it and speculative fiction writing than we imagine.

What can we say about the recommended writings of Robert Heinlein above, and how they make use of the genre? Please remember, the more pre-meeting post we have, the better the chats.

To attend the chats, and any reasonable person is welcome, you may receive instructions on how to download and use AIM freeware on the website located at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

Email myself ( ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com ), or Dave Wright, Sr, ( dwrighsr@alltel.net ) if you require further help getting the freeware or getting into the room.

I’m looking forward to many more than the usual number of pre-meeting posts on this seldom discussed topic.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”

“David Silver”

>A well-known, very successful mystery writer of that time once noted
>that mystery stories had a certain power of their own that appealed to
>him. He didn’t think this power was “entirely a matter of violence …
>certainly not a matter of fine writing … [n]or was it because of any
>great originality of plot or character.” He suggested, “[p]ossibly it
>was the smell of fear which these stories managed to generate. Their
>characters lived in a world gone wrong, a world in which, long before
>the atom bomb, civilization had created the machinery of its own
>destruction, and was learning to use it with all the moronic delight of
>a gangster trying out his first machine gun. …”
>
>> David M. Silver
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>”The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
>

Interestingly, in an interview Asimov gave shortly before he passed away, he said he actually enjoyed writing mysteries more than s-f, but he got paid more for the s-f, so he still wrote it, and because he said he couldn’t say no to his publisher who still wanted it.

–Steve B.
Steve Burwen wrote:

>”David Silver”
>
>
>>A well-known, very successful mystery writer of that time once noted
>>that mystery stories had a certain power of their own that appealed to
>>him. He didn’t think this power was “entirely a matter of violence …
>>certainly not a matter of fine writing … [n]or was it because of any
>>great originality of plot or character.” He suggested, “[p]ossibly it
>>was the smell of fear which these stories managed to generate. Their
>>characters lived in a world gone wrong, a world in which, long before
>>the atom bomb, civilization had created the machinery of its own
>>destruction, and was learning to use it with all the moronic delight of
>>a gangster trying out his first machine gun. …”
>>
>>
>>>David M. Silver
>>>
>>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>>”The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
>>
>>
>
>Interestingly, in an interview Asimov gave shortly before he passed away, he
>said he actually enjoyed writing mysteries more than s-f, but he got paid
>more for the s-f, so he still wrote it, and because he said he couldn’t say
>no to his publisher who still wanted it.
>
> –Steve B.
>
>

Regarding “They Do It With Mirrors,” Heinlein observed “a) whodunnits are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn’t interest me that much; and c) Crime Does Not Pay — Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America).”

Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price paid for mystery stories).

I suppose the corollary of mystery’s greater reader popularity is the larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at “Mirrors,” Steve?

Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein’s skill in writing mystery as ‘no threat’ to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein’s skill in writing mystery as
>’no threat’ to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same
>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?

I do share Heinlein’s assessment in regard to “Mirrors” — it’s just a gimmick story written in a fairly conventional way. A teacher at UC Riverside pointed out that when Heinlein was first working in a field, he would hew close to the conventions, gradually getting more individual as he became more experienced. I think that’s what we’re seeing in “Mirrors.”

On the other hand, “Hoag” has many unexpected depths and is quite interesting.

Bill

Incidentally, I’ve been meaning to bring up that the Chris Isaak show uses a woman in one of those magic mirrors as a continuing story gimmick — Chris talks freely to her (Mona) about what is going on in his life.

I don’t think the club he supposedly plays at — Bimbos 361 in SF — is actually an active club. Last I heard they were renting out the hall for activities.

Bill
David Silver wrote in message news:…

>Regarding “They Do It With Mirrors,” Heinlein observed “a) whodunnits
>are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond
>Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn’t interest me that much; and c)
>Crime Does Not Pay — Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America).”
>
>Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price
>paid for mystery stories).
>
>I suppose the corollary of mystery’s greater reader popularity is the
>larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of
>writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at
>”Mirrors,” Steve?
>
>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein’s skill in writing mystery as
>’no threat’ to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same
>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?

I’m not Steve, but I’ll weigh in here!

I read RAH’s comment as having nothing to do with his skill: he’s simply saying that he doesn’t _care_ about mystery writing enough that Chandler or Stout need to worry about the competition!

For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the “atmosphere” (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe, Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc). Note that many successful mystery/detective writers get stuck with a “series character”, and that they usually write first person, even if it’s “first person amanuensis”: Chandler’s Philip Marlowe, Stout’s Archie Goodwin, Conan Doyle’s Dr. Watson, Parker’s Spenser, Kellerman’s Alex Delaware. This can eventually be rather confining, to the point that the author literally (or “literarily”, anyway! 😉 ) “kills off” the character. My instinct is that RAh was by nature an experimenter, and resented those sort of shackles. And he was a minimalist, not interested in long descriptive passages or “atmosphere”, but instead looking for the most economical way to let the reader know that he’s in very _different_ time and space (“The door dilated.”). So perhaps the very things that we mystery fans adore about the genre are things that repulsed if not replled him about it. And what you don’t _like_, you usually don’t do well. That’s how I read his comment.

That said, “Hoag” is one of my favorites… and as a “series character” I rather like Lazarus, though I think you need to make allowance for the fact that I probably read and enjoyed _Methusaleh’s Children_ more than once before I read many mysteries at all, even Holmes.

George
“BPRAL22169” wrote in message news:20020201112151.09888.00000998@mb-fi.aol.com…

>>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein’s skill in writing mystery as
>>’no threat’ to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same
>>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
>
>I do share Heinlein’s assessment in regard to “Mirrors” — it’s just a gimmick
>story written in a fairly conventional way. A teacher at UC Riverside pointed
>out that when Heinlein was first working in a field, he would hew close to the
>conventions, gradually getting more individual as he became more experienced.
>I think that’s what we’re seeing in “Mirrors.”
>
>On the other hand, “Hoag” has many unexpected depths and is quite interesting.
>Bill

Was the teacher at U.C. Riverside (where I attended grad school myself) Stephen Minot, by any chance? He was there when I was and I found this out by accidently stumbling on an announcement of a reading from some new book back in 1980. I was teaching there myself at the time, and I noticed an announcement about it outside the lecture hall for my own class.

–Steve B.
As I’m least familiar with “Mirrors” and a huge fan of mysteries

I decided to re read it first.

It was written in 1945, IOW fairly early in Heinlein’s career and for a short story that no one ID’d as Heinlein’s for a very long time, it’s amazing how many bits and bobs turned up in other stories or are from other stories. More of that high grading I guess. Just for fun, I went through and listed the ones I spotted, there may be more I missed;

“Then the turntable picked up with _Hymn To The Sun_ from _Coq
d’Or_and he started turning the rheostat slowly.”

This tickled my memory until I nailed it;

‘”Well, I suppose the catalogs wil list it as Vega Five. But they
call it -” She threw back her head and vocalized; it recalled to me
the cockcrow theme in _Le Coq d’Or’

The other music in the story is Valse Triste and Bolero. I don’t want to seem like a knowitall so I’ll let others mention where they crop up ( i.e, darned if I can though I’m sure they do :-)).

The hero is named Thomas Alva Edison Hill in hopes that he’ll grow up like his namesake; shades of Tom and Pat in Time For The Stars (and JSB from IWFNE). Instead he’s a ghost writer which brings to mind such characters as Jane, Colin and Jubal.

He sees Hazel and is struck all of a heap; like Oscar and Star. Hazel is a name that will be used again and Estelle D’Arcy’s real name should ring bells; Audrey Johnson. So that’s what happened to Maureen’s sister!

Catsup and blood; remember the start of Sail?

The hero comes up with a ‘logical’ reason why Hazel dunnit (paging Rod Walker…)and leaps both to conclusions and on her (Hamilton Felix…). After some rather nasty physical violence she accepts his apology and kisses him (Phyllis).

The methods the police use to break their suspect are rather shocking by our standards; he’d not only walk free, he’d probably get a huge settlement nowadays.

OK, the story is interesting because it manages to be sort of SFy in details; the atom bomb gets mentioned and there’s some science mixed in with the electrical trick and the way the lights work. Other than that, it’s just average IMO. The bar setting is in lots of Heinlein’s stories but that’s certainly not unique to him.

If this were in an anthology of 40’s detective stories and I didn’t know who wrote it, I’d like it but not enough to go wild hunting down others in the series.

More later.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article, Jane Davittwrote:

>Just for fun, I went through and listed the ones I spotted, there
>may be more I missed;
>”Then the turntable picked up with _Hymn To The Sun_ from _Coq
>d’Or_and he started turning the rheostat slowly.”
>This tickled my memory until I nailed it;
>'”Well, I suppose the catalogs wil list it as Vega Five. But they
>call it -” She threw back her head and vocalized; it recalled to me
>the cockcrow theme in _Le Coq d’Or’

“Have Space-Suit — Will Travel” Peewee identifying the name of the Mother Thing’s Home World.

>The other music in the story is Valse Triste and Bolero. I don’t
>want to seem like a knowitall so I’ll let others mention where they
>crop up ( i.e, darned if I can though I’m sure they do :-)).

The “Valse Triste” is played in “Methusaleh’s Children” while the Howard Families are on the planet of the Little People. It is used as not very subtle “subliminal” prodding by Lazarus to influence the members to chose to return to Earth.

 

Is anyone else going to play?

Bonne Chance !

Dr. Rufo

Pax Vobiscum

>Is anyone else going to play?
>
>Bonne Chance !
>Dr. Rufo
>Pax Vobiscum

This may prove to be one of the most fascinating topics yet! Hazel, get your chessboard set up.

[Denis Paradis]
George Partlow wrote:

>David Silver wrote in message news:
>
>>Regarding “They Do It With Mirrors,” Heinlein observed “a) whodunnits
>>are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond
>>Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn’t interest me that much; and c)
>>Crime Does Not Pay — Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America).”
>>
>>Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price
>>paid for mystery stories).
>>
>>I suppose the corollary of mystery’s greater reader popularity is the
>>larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of
>>writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at
>>”Mirrors,” Steve?
>>
>>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein’s skill in writing mystery as
>>’no threat’ to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same
>> comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
>
>I’m not Steve, but I’ll weigh in here!
>

Forgive me, George, for not making it clear that anyone and everyone should jump right in with their POV!

>I read RAH’s comment as having nothing to do with his skill: he’s
>simply saying that he doesn’t _care_ about mystery writing enough that
>Chandler or Stout need to worry about the competition!
>

I think that’s an appropriate assessment. Perhaps Heinlein might have explored the genre a bit further had circumstances not changed his mind. John D. MacDonald, for example, wrote in both genre, although his mix was mostly mystery, loosely defined, he wrote at least two nice science fiction and one nice fantasy novels.

>For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction
>is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the
>”atmosphere” (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe,
>Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc).

This ‘atmosphere’ — an overal term that can often include within it, a ‘mean streets’ setting, is one of the attractions I enjoy greatly. Authors often write of what they know best: MacDonald often wrote of Florida; Crais writes of Hollywood, both the city and industry, apparently based on his screenwriter’s background, but also having grown up in Louisiana, writes about it, having at least one novel involving an out-of-town assignment; James Lee Burke, another good writer, situates his stories in Louisiana and, lately, Texas. If I look at my paperbacks shelves (those I’ve kept around for one reason or another) I can look at different authors and say: Crumley — basically the mountain and western states; Peter Corris — Australia; Connolly — L.A.; Ellroy — (another L.A. sometimes one so surealistic I don’t recognize it); Gores — pretty scattered, but San Francisco-based like his adopted mentor, Dashiel Hammett; Pete Hamill — NYC as you might expect; Sanford — Minnesota; Patterson — Washington, D.C. and hither and yon as Alex Cross gets about; Robert B. Parker — Boston; Hiassen — another Floridian along with James Hall and MacDonald. You want Chicago, “da Windy City and home of da Bears”? I present to you Eugene Izzi, whose recent death was a bit of a mystery as well; want Detroit? I give you Elmore Leonard, bearing in mind that Leonard gets around to Miami and L.A., lately, too. Maybe I should rack these writers geographically instead of alphabetically. And so forth and so on . . . I keep way too many paperbacks.

Sometimes the character studies are very fascinating: Elmore Leonard’s and James Ellroy’s and Michael Connelly’s spring into my mind; but all of them usually come up with a compelling character or three. And not always only of the ‘detective’ doing the detecting.

These strong characters as so well known that parodies are written: the incomparable cartoonist Bill Watterson’s incomparable Calvin comes up in his imagination with “Tracer Bullet” to go along with Sci-Fi hero “Spaceman Spiff” when he’s not plotting deviltry with that tiger of his. And Tracer goes out to solve crime in his own not unexpected ways.

>Note that many successful mystery/detective writers get stuck with a
>”series character”, and that they usually write first person, even if
>it’s “first person amanuensis”: Chandler’s Philip Marlowe, Stout’s
>Archie Goodwin, Conan Doyle’s Dr. Watson, Parker’s Spenser,
>Kellerman’s Alex Delaware. This can eventually be rather confining,
>to the point that the author literally (or “literarily”, anyway! 😉 )
>”kills off” the character.

I agree; and a good example of ‘killing’ [note the half quotes] will be found when we get to looking at Crais, in L.A. Requiem. Elvis Cole and Joe Pike, for novel after novel, must approach tiresome; but I suspect an alternative might be some remarkable character developments. We, who read Crais, will find out in August when the next Cole and Pike novel is due out.

John D. MacDonald, who wrote all those Travis McGee goldmines, must have toyed with the notion of wacking out McGee more than once. Instead, McGee’s character ages more or less gracefully and developes more or less maturely, IMO.

>My instinct is that RAh was by nature an
>experimenter, and resented those sort of shackles. And he was a
>minimalist, not interested in long descriptive passages or
>”atmosphere”, but instead looking for the most economical way to let
>the reader know that he’s in very _different_ time and space (“The
>door dilated.”). So perhaps the very things that we mystery fans
>adore about the genre are things that repulsed if not repelled him
>about it. And what you don’t _like_, you usually don’t do well.
>That’s how I read his comment.
>

Heinlein was after character development, not gadget stories. One Edison Hill short story really wasn’t enough to see where he might have taken his ghost writer of political autobiographies. It might have been interesting to have seen what John Riverside would have done with a second, or third, or later stories. But, instead, he sold that first juvenile he experimented with writing, apparently to the second publisher that looked at it and took a branch in life.

Both this detective story, as Bill Patterson notes, and the first juvenile, Rocket Ship Galileo, hewed closely to established formulae.

>That said, “Hoag” is one of my favorites… and as a “series
>character” I rather like Lazarus, though I think you need to make
>allowance for the fact that I probably read and enjoyed _Methusaleh’s
>Children_ more than once before I read many mysteries at all, even
>Holmes.

Hoag and Lazarus, the strong character, I’ll leave to another post; and hope that someone along with you, George, picks up these very interesting threads before I get to it.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

Bill Patterson, concerning the show in “Mirrors”:

>Incidentally, I’ve been meaning to bring up that the Chris Isaak show uses a
>woman in one of those magic mirrors as a continuing story gimmick — Chris
>talks freely to her (Mona) about what is going on in his life.
>
>I don’t think the club he supposedly plays at — Bimbos 361 in SF — is
>actually an active club. Last I heard they were renting out the hall for
>activities.

‘splain a little further, please, Bill. Is Isaak a character or a real person, and in what media or venue is he to be found?

About the actual tavern or club RAH noted existing with the mirrors at the intersection of Hollywood Boulevard and Gower gulch in Expanded Universe, it’s a shame I was only ten or eleven years old in 1953 when we lived on Bronson Avenue, a block north of the intersection of Hollywood Boulevard and “Gower gulch” (which by then was the Hollywood Freeway, being used in its first year or so — which made the rent very cheap), because although I remember a liquor store on the northwest corner of Bronson and Hollywood (a very short skip, maybe two doors, from the freeway), and delight to remember Reginald Denny’s Hobby Shop [where the owner, a silent screen leading man, let us, all the kid in the neighborhood, fly his and our own gasoline powered model airplanes after school every day in his back lot] on the northeast corner across the freeway bridge, I cannot remember a particular bar or nightclub in the area that might have had the mirror set up. [Of course there were some bars and nightclubs up and down the street that could have — at age ten, I wasn’t yet a patron or really yet that interested in The Form Divine.]

Gower Gulch, for those who do not know, was a huge gully (medium size ravine) running from the southeast to the northwest through Hollywood until they used it for the freeways. In the 1920s, -30s, and on through the early -50s, cowboy extras in the movies and others used to regularly camp out down in its bushes, until the LAPD cleaned them out, and sometimes the LAPD left them alone. The six lane Hollywood Freeway fit nicely in it, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on whether you had to drive out over or through the Hollywood Hills to the San Fernando Valley and its chicken farms, and later movie studios and suburbs.

We’re talking about the East end of Hollywood, where the bars then began to be a little less upscale, but not too far east. Earl Rogers’ [?] Moulin Rouge, with all the Hollywood autographs on the wall, was only a block or two west. The Palladium only about two or three blocks west; and Hollywood and Vine about a quarter mile.

It wasn’t quite yet a mean street area, but getting there …


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

>’splain a little further, please, Bill. Is Isaak a character or a real person,
>and in what media or venue is he to be found?

Sorry for the assumptions. Chris Isaak is a singer — I suppose he would be classified as a kind of upscale rockabilly type — who periodically hits the charts and has done some quite memorable songs. I think his last big hit was the album “Heart Shaped World” four or five years ago. You might be able to find the CD in your local library. The video for, I think, “Wicked World” from that album was one of the sexiest music videos ever made.

Isaak has taken flyers at acting in the last several years — he had a bit part in Silence of the Lambs (he was the head of the SWAT team) and had one of the leads in David Lynch’s movie prequel to the Twin Peaks television show, “Fire Walk With Me.” He played the FBI agent who disappeared — the trigger that brought Agent Cooper to Twin Peaks in the TV show. Come to think of it, he has the same kind of look as Kyle McLaughlan — seems to be a favorite look for Lynch.

He’s got his own loosely real-life based show on Showtime — that is, it’s about a band he heads and involves Isaak’s IRL band and agent — but the conceit is a lot like the old Burns & Allen show; their TV life owes very little to real biographical incidents.

The club, Bimbos (which really does exist on lower Columbus in SF), has a magic-mirror illusion of a very beautiful naked blond women (Mona) swimming in an aquarium tank. Chris talks over his life with Mona, staying out of the imaging area. Mona is a Wise Woman.

Bill

>Was the teacher at U.C. Riverside (where I attended grad school myself)
>Stephen Minot, by any chance?

No, it was Gary Westfahl, who has done some very insightful work on Heinlein for Extrapolations. Bill “George Partlow”wrote in message news:e5dfe6d0.0202011211.607a86da@posting.google.com…

>David Silver wrote in message news:…
>
>>Regarding “They Do It With Mirrors,” Heinlein observed “a) whodunnits
>>are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond
>>Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn’t interest me that much; and c)
>>Crime Does Not Pay — Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America).”
>>
>>Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price
>>paid for mystery stories).
>>
>>I suppose the corollary of mystery’s greater reader popularity is the
>>larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of
>>writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at
>>”Mirrors,” Steve?
>>
>>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein’s skill in writing mystery as
>>’no threat’ to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same
>>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
>
>I’m not Steve, but I’ll weigh in here!
>
>I read RAH’s comment as having nothing to do with his skill: he’s
>simply saying that he doesn’t _care_ about mystery writing enough that
>Chandler or Stout need to worry about the competition!
>
>For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction
>is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the
>”atmosphere” (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe,
>Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc).
> Note that many successful mystery/detective writers get stuck with a
>”series character”, and that they usually write first person, even if
>it’s “first person amanuensis”: Chandler’s Philip Marlowe, Stout’s
>Archie Goodwin, Conan Doyle’s Dr. Watson, Parker’s Spenser,
>Kellerman’s Alex Delaware. This can eventually be rather confining,
>to the point that the author literally (or “literarily”, anyway! 😉 )
>”kills off” the character. My instinct is that RAh was by nature an
>experimenter, and resented those sort of shackles. And he was a
>minimalist, not interested in long descriptive passages or
>”atmosphere”, but instead looking for the most economical way to let
>the reader know that he’s in very _different_ time and space (“The
>door dilated.”). So perhaps the very things that we mystery fans
>adore about the genre are things that repulsed if not replled him
>about it. And what you don’t _like_, you usually don’t do well.
>That’s how I read his comment.
>
>That said, “Hoag” is one of my favorites… and as a “series
>character” I rather like Lazarus, though I think you need to make
>allowance for the fact that I probably read and enjoyed _Methusaleh’s
>Children_ more than once before I read many mysteries at all, even
>Holmes.
>
>George

I’ve only just dipped into Chandler and Stout, although I’ve read one volume of Asimov’s mysteries, so I’m no expert on them, but I agree with David that Heinlein just didn’t have as much of an interest in the mystery area. I see Heinlein as basically an inheritor of the H.G. Wellsian tradition of sociologically-oriented science-fiction. Like Wells, Heinlein excelled at taking certain scientific and technological factors, extrapolating from them, and then building a plausible society on those elements. And his considerable scientific and mathematical training meant that he understood science and technology better than most writers, and even most S-F writers, and I think naturally attracted him to a venue like S-F where his own natural inclination, talents, and formal education would be major strong points. –Steve B. “Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3C5B1763.4040207@rogers.com…

>The other music in the story is Valse Triste and Bolero. I don’t
>want to seem like a knowitall so I’ll let others mention where they
>crop up ( i.e, darned if I can though I’m sure they do :-)).

Jane–

“Bolero” shows up in “By His Bootstraps” when the protagonist picks up a lllist of musical selections heavy on emotional effect. (BHS is pretty high on my “least favorite” RAH list, so I don’t often re-read it, but I just happened to, recently.)

–Dee
On 01 Feb 2002 23:50:03 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (David M. Silver) wrote:

>
>I think that’s an appropriate assessment. Perhaps Heinlein might have explored
>the genre a bit further had circumstances not changed his mind. John D.
>MacDonald, for example, wrote in both genre, although his mix was mostly
>mystery, loosely defined, he wrote at least two nice science fiction and one
>nice fantasy novels.

I recall, many years ago, being surprised not only that JDM had ventured into the worlds of science fiction/fantasy, but also how *good* his work was in those areas. I always kind of wished for more.

>>For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction
>>is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the
>>”atmosphere” (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe,
>>Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc).

One of the few differences I find, with David.[1] I got a relatively early start in mysteries, due to the influence of my Mom’s family, with whom we lived for many of my younger years.

 

You’re not the only one; I’ve boxes *full* of them around the house, in addition to all the hardbacks.

I’ve always enjoyed the works of Joe Gores; while I’ve never lived in the Bay Area, I’ve spent considerable time there. Friends in the area; my folks lived there for a few years, and many trips to the area in the past years when my work involved a lot of travel. (Not to mention the occasional trip to have Jim Wolf work his magic on my Z.) Gores’ words ring true to me.

James Lee Burke is a favorite of mine. Dave Robicheaux is not only a sympathetic and very interesting protagonist, but also someone whom I’d like to consider a friend, should I encounter that particular aspect of the World as Myth.(As an aside, while I’m not a particular fan of Alec Baldwin, I thought that he rendered the character reasonably well.)

I guess I discovered Nero Wolfe somewhere before high school; likely around the time I discovered RAH (1950ish.) Wolfe is one to whom I keep returning, and while the stories obviously date themselves[2], I don’t find them becoming stale.

>Sometimes the character studies are very fascinating: Elmore Leonard’s and
>James Ellroy’s and Michael Connelly’s spring into my mind; but all of them
>usually come up with a compelling character or three. And not always only of
>the ‘detective’ doing the detecting.

Connelly is another favorite of mine; I like just about everything he’s done. While I enjoy Leonard, he’s not quite in that category for me; I’m enthralled with a few of his books, but others are very much “take it or leave it.”

Speaking of Leonard, George Clooney as a Leonard hero? Please….

>I agree; and a good example of ‘killing’ [note the half quotes] will be found
>when we get to looking at Crais, in L.A. Requiem. Elvis Cole and Joe Pike, for
>novel after novel, must approach tiresome; but I suspect an alternative might
>be some remarkable character developments. We, who read Crais, will find out in
>August when the next Cole and Pike novel is due out.

I’m not wildly enamored of Elvis Cole, but I find Joe Pike to be an intensely intriguing and appealing character. (I know that Robert lurks occasionally; if he reads this, Bravo!! And, how about a story centered around Joe? If Cole gets killed off, I’d not be overly displeased, but I’d hate to think we’ve seen the last of Pike.)

And, it’s always fun to play “spot the Heinlein reference,” too.

[1] I sometimes wonder if David and I may have been separated at birth. :) Our tastes are very similar, in many ways.

[2] My understanding is that Timothy Hutton purchased the NW rights largely because he, himself is a fan. He not only wanted to do these stories himself, but also wanted the opportunity to ensure that they were done correctly. I applaud that, and personally, I think he’s done it quite well. The only thing I found a bit jarring at first (and I’ve adjusted) was the setting in the ’50s; I’ve always pictured Wolfe as taking place in the ’30s and ’40s.

I also think that they’ve done a creditable job with the casting, and I enjoy the somewhat “ensemble” aspect of it (if that makes any sense.)

/mnt/brain/clue.tar.gz: No such file or directory
internet extremist at large TINC
wiz {at} spamcop {dot} net “What evil shall I do, today?”
TINLC (If there were, you couldn’t tell if I were part of it or not)

[Editor’s Note: This one was on a different thread, but it seemed appropriate to place it here]

Ogden Johnson III wrote:

>[snip EMail and other changes announced]
>
>Just a FWIW. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion
>of my favorite authors, RAH and JDM. ;->
>
>OJ III
>

This will tickle the cockles of even a leatherhead’s heart, OJ.

This morning I had a chat IM with Mrs. RAH. Somehow the topic of whether RAH read mysteries got into the conversation. Yes, she said, and he even kept one whole shelf of one writer after he pared down the library [presumably when they moved to Carmel, giving away or selling most of the 10,000 volumes]. Who was the writer I asked? I’ll have to check, an old-timer who wrote real hard-boiled ones, said she. A pause of about two minutes. “John D. MacDonald. I always confuse him with Ross.”

Just a FWIW. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of my favorite authors, RAH and JDM. ;->

“for a duck may be somebody’s mother!”


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

It’s interesting that Heinlein never tried mixing the genres and producing a futuristic mystery as Asimov did with his Wendell Urth and Caves of Steel stories.I suppose one could say that he got round to it in Cat but more on that later.

Genre mixing is more common nowadays maybe; Nora Roberts (romance/suspense) for instance writes a series under the name J.D Robb. They are about a female police officer in a futuristic New York (detective and SF) and have large dollops of sex (with her incredibly good looking, slightly criminal multi billionaire husband; romance). Whether cramming so much into one book alienates or increases readership I don’t know. (I like the Robb books btw, I’m just jealous of the heroine, Dallas :-))

Hoag combined detective with fantasy which, on the face of it is an unusual pairing. The first is dependent on logic and attention to details, a painstaking reconstruction of a crime, an investigation into motives, alibis and an almost inevitable uncovering of the villain. The second is set in alternate worlds where magic, not science, is the norm and the aliens are called faery.

The start of Hoag has some classic P.I details, shadowing, fingerprints, lots of focus on the husband/wife pairing. But slowly, things happen that _can’t_ be explained, can’t have a logical outcome. Inexorably the Randalls feel the ground crumble beneath them until all is lost of their familiar world, lost for ever. Another genre encroaches; the horror story…

Cat is perhaps a combination of mystery and SF but, despite the fact that it has some nice clichés I don’t think Heinlein really made enough of the mystery angle for it to qualify. The murder happens, the list of questions to be resolved is drawn up; all good stuff…but then, nothing. So busy are Richard and Gwen in their headlong fleeing that it all gets forgotten about…until the final pages. Poirot would have pulled out his moustache in horror.

In some ways, To Sail is better. That too opens with a murder and if you ignore Maureen’s life story and read just the bits set in the present it’s quite classic in the details of wrongful accusation, escape from prison, identification of the group responsible…

To sum up; Heinlein didn’t write great mysteries because he didn’t seem interested enough in the mechanics required of such a story. Too constricting. Shame; the couple in Hoag would have been fun if they were on the tail of a more prosaic villain.

But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions. Mystery’s loss is SF’s gain.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Jane Davittwrote in news:3C5DED62.2010709 @rogers.com:

>It’s interesting that Heinlein never tried mixing the genres and
>producing a futuristic mystery as Asimov did with his Wendell Urth
>and Caves of Steel stories.I suppose one could say that he got round
>to it in Cat but more on that later.
>
>Genre mixing is more common nowadays maybe; Nora Roberts
>(romance/suspense) for instance writes a series under the name J.D
>Robb. They are about a female police officer in a futuristic New
>York (detective and SF) and have large dollops of sex (with her
>incredibly good looking, slightly criminal multi billionaire
>husband; romance). Whether cramming so much into one book alienates
>or increases readership I don’t know. (I like the Robb books btw,
>I’m just jealous of the heroine, Dallas :-))

I love the Robb books and have managed to get husband hooked. However, there is a definite timeline problem in them for hard science SF fans. There is no way that the future she describes could have taken place in the time constraints. I ignore any dates that she gives and I am fine – but I do not think we will have regular interplanetary travel by 2065.

However, you will note that she moves penal facilities off Earth. The moon is a harsh mistress, anyone?

>
>Hoag combined detective with fantasy which, on the face of it is an
>unusual pairing. The first is dependent on logic and attention to
>details, a painstaking reconstruction of a crime, an investigation
>into motives, alibis and an almost inevitable uncovering of the
>villain. The second is set in alternate worlds where magic, not
>science, is the norm and the aliens are called faery.
>The start of Hoag has some classic P.I details, shadowing,
>fingerprints, lots of focus on the husband/wife pairing. But slowly,
> things happen that _can’t_ be explained, can’t have a logical
>outcome. Inexorably the Randalls feel the ground crumble beneath
>them until all is lost of their familiar world, lost for ever.
>Another genre encroaches; the horror story…

Hoag who? The suspense writer that I am familiar with – Tammy Hoag, doesn’t have a faery collection that I know of.

>snip some discussion that was actually on topic
>
>But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a
> good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions.
>Mystery’s loss is SF’s gain.
>
>Jane
>

BTW – if you enjoy horror fantasy and erotic with your mystery, I HIGHLY recommend Laurell Hamilton and Tanya Huff.


-K—–
“I am Scylla, the Rock. At least on my good days.”

Kate Collins wrote:

>
>BTW – if you enjoy horror fantasy and erotic with your mystery, I HIGHLY
>recommend Laurell Hamilton and Tanya Huff.
>

Read ’em all, already :-) They’re lots of fun though I sometimes wish Anita would angst less, enjoy Jean Claude more and stop giving quite so much gruesome detail about people dying in nasty ways. I’m sort of a wuss about those things. I think the earlier stories are better but I’m hooked on them now.

The Huff vampire stories are great, especially as I live near Toronto and know some of the places that get mentioned.

And Hoag is just my lazy way of not writing out, ‘The Unpleasant profession of Jonathan Hoag’ by Robert Heinlein in full. Darn, now you made me do it!

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>…. Matt Helms(sic), fundamentally amoral….

Expand, please.

cheers

oz, who places Hamilton in a tie with JDM just behind RAH for a good read.

I may have had a second brain fart within 24 hours. I was reaching for the name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.

Bill

>Friday kills a guy on page 1.
>

True — and Friday is a reworking of “Gulf.”

So we’ve got — what, 3 out of the last 18 books?

Perhaps the original statement that prompted this question was a tad hyperbolic?

Bill
Colin wrote:

>Maybe GULF and PUPPET MASTERS were attempts at “hardboiled” stories, even
>though they’re not mysteries. (Plus it’s hard to evaluate GULF because it
>was part of Campbell’s “trick” issue.) But you don’t see such implacable
>protagonists in other RAH stories before or after until the Late Period,
>when he had to kill somebody on page 1 just to get the story started.
>

You might be correct, Colin. The “mystery genre” opens up in later development to, among others things, the dectective adventure, the police adventure, and spy adventure varients, changing from ‘who dunnits’ into ‘howtodunnits’ and both Gulf and Puppet Masters are these, as well as, at its beginning, Friday.

>
>In article ,
>bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:
>
>>>To sum up; Heinlein didn’t write great mysteries because he didn’t
>>>seem interested enough in the mechanics required of such a story.
>>
>>There may be something else. The pure puzzle mystery has some of the same
>>sterility as the Gernsbackian gadget story, so the “cozy mystery” just wouldn’t
>>appeal to him.

Chandler’s influence (and Hammet’s) moved mystery away from the pure puzzle mystery into a more action setting — somewhere between, as he put it: “[a reader’s] demand [for] a ground plan of Greythorpe Manor, showing the study, the gun room, the main hall and staircase and the passage to that grim room where the butler polishes the Georgian silver, tight-lipped and silent, hearing the murmur of doom” yet not so far as to require that the reader believe “the shortest distance between two points is from a blonde to a bed.” [with or without a bottle of hooch].

>>He wrote one “hardboiled” detective story — but the figures
>>that dominate that genre are morally wounded — Philip Marlowe, for example
>–
>>or else, like Matt Helms, fundamentally amoral — and I can’t see either of
>>those appealing much to Heinlein.
>>
>>I think there was just a poor fit between Heinlein as a writer and the mystery
>>genre.
>>Bill

Yet, as I noted in another thread, Heinlein enjoyed and kept, even after he culled his library down when moving to Carmel, MacDonald’s writings. I suspect he enjoyed what MacDonald did in the last series he finally settled upon writing, the Travis McGee ones, inventing a figure who kept, despite his cynicism, galloping off to rescue fair maidens in that rusty armor, aboard the spavined steed. I suggest perhaps he enjoyed these stories because they took the genre hero in the direction he might have taken him: cf. Oscar, Colin Campbell/Richard Ames, Hartley Baldwin …


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) wrote in news:20020204134743.21842.00000049@mb-fo.aol.com:

>>…. Matt Helms(sic), fundamentally amoral….
>
>Expand, please.
>
>cheers
>
>oz, who places Hamilton in a tie with JDM just behind RAH for a good read.
>
>

I don’t know, I might agree with describing Matt Helm as “amoral” though I think “pragmatic” fits better. And I can easily see him agreeing both L. Long and J. Harshaw about practicalities . . .


-K—–
“I am Scylla, the Rock. At least on my good days.”

On 4 Feb 2002 22:53:30 GMT, Kate Collinswrote:

>I don’t know, I might agree with describing Matt Helm as “amoral” though I
>think “pragmatic” fits better. And I can easily see him agreeing both L.
>Long and J. Harshaw about practicalities . . .

I’m not an expert; I outgrew Helm *many* years ago. :) I wouldn’t describe him as “amoral”, though; I’d consider him to be working to his own morality, which may not be the norm.

You’re right, though; “pragmatic” works.

/mnt/brain/clue.tar.gz: No such file or directory
internet extremist at large TINC
wiz {at} spamcop {dot} net “What evil shall I do, today?”
TINLC (If there were, you couldn’t tell if I were part of it or not)

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>I may have had a second brain fart within 24 hours. I was reaching for the
>name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.
>Bill
>
>

Mike Hammer. Another one, almost in that league, was Richard Prather’s Shell Scott, who was my dad’s favorite escapism.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

“BPRAL22169″wrote in message news:20020204164117.22900.00001372@mb-cg.aol.com…

>I may have had a second brain fart within 24
hours. I was reaching for the
>name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.
>Bill
>

Mike Hammer?


Bill Dennis
http://peoriatimesobserver.com
http://billdennis.net

Jane Davitt wrote:

>It’s interesting that Heinlein never tried mixing the genres and
>producing a futuristic mystery as Asimov did with his Wendell Urth and
>Caves of Steel stories.I suppose one could say that he got round to it
>in Cat but more on that later.
>[snip]

>Hoag combined detective with fantasy which, on the face of it is an
>unusual pairing. The first is dependent on logic and attention to
>details, a painstaking reconstruction of a crime, an investigation into
>motives, alibis and an almost inevitable uncovering of the villain. The
>second is set in alternate worlds where magic, not science, is the norm
>and the aliens are called faery.

>The start of Hoag has some classic P.I details, shadowing, fingerprints,
>lots of focus on the husband/wife pairing. But slowly, things happen
>that _can’t_ be explained, can’t have a logical outcome. Inexorably the
>Randalls feel the ground crumble beneath them until all is lost of their
>familiar world, lost for ever. Another genre encroaches; the horror story…

So far I agree, maybe. Except I’m not quite sure that the encroaching “horror story” isn’t merely a form of speculative fiction, i.e., fantasy without wholly, or mainly, benevolent imaginary creatures and physical laws. How do you differentiate? If Magic, Inc., with all those malignant beings, Lucifer himself included, and humans, is fantasy, why isn’t Hoag?

Rather than stopping at genre classification, I’d look at what Heinlein turned a not too terribly complicated mystery into: a parable or illustrative fable. The commentary on the state of happiness or satisfaction of the inhabitants of Chicago, generally, even adults generally, the more than merely “mean streets” description of Chicago itself, not only Hoag’s reaction to those he encounters but Cynthia’s as well. Hoag, from the beginning is portrayed as a bit of an epicure, somewhat of the society gentleman, the “extra bachelor” invited by hostesses to fill in their dinners, attendee at operas, etc. Cynthia, in contrast, more average in cultural pretentions, happy with her husband, a beer and a club sandwich, a working wife and business partner with her detective husband. Hoag sees rudeness, flat or piggish eyes, skin marred by blackheads and enlarged pores, fat vicious shrill suspicious mothers, even mean, troublemaking and gutterwise little girls. Cynthia’s descriptions not so vivid, but she sees unhappy adults; and she and Ted Randall, her husband, worry when they’ll ‘grow up’ and become as unhappy as the adults they see around them.

There’s also something else working here. Adults living during the years 1940-1 in the United States had a feeling of forboding: despite the isolationist and anti-war movements in the United States during those years, it was obvious the League of Nations had failed, September 1939 had seen the invasion of Poland and respective declarations of war between Germany and Italy, on the one hand, and essentially the rest of western Europe; and each month seemed to bring worse news. We who have within the last five months seen the NYC World Trade Towers terrorism got a little taste of that. Imagine what they felt. There wasn’t going to be a war against ten thousand Taliban that might, as it turns out, be subdued by aerial bombardments and Afghan’s own indiginous forces, along with a few thousand allied advisors. Europe was quite certain what would occur would be a return to the massive armies of the First World War; and Americans had no doubt they were correct. Another _World_ War.

The Depression, bad as it was or had been, wasn’t quite so terrible by contrast. Depressions have been endured without massive death and destruction. And then there was Japan’s program of Asian conquest, ongoing. The Rape of Nanking, and so on.

As “A Biographical Sketch” observes “Heinlein had been following the war news from Europe with increasing unease: the lights of democracy were going out all over Europe and Asia (to both fascism and communism, which Heinlein, regarded as equally evil).”

He had been paying attention to much more than Europe. He considered himself a Naval officer, of the regular establishment, inconveniently retired because of his ‘cured’ tuberculosis. He had his eyes closely watching the Pacific as well.

In November 1941, John Campbell became concerned about Heinlein finishing Beyond This Horizon so that it would be available for scheduled publication. He wrote, in Heinlein’s words,

“. . . insisting that I come to New York (from Hollywood) on the 1st of December, and finish the book there. I refused and gave him this as my reason (‘reason,’ not excuse, not a stall): ‘If the Japanese start a war with us, and it looks as if they intend to, then they will do so this coming weekend and probably on a Sunday, as they have a record of surprise attacks and they certainly know our Navy’s habits on weekends. They’ll try to catch us with our pants down. John, if I go to New York now and that happens, I’ll never finish the book; I’ll report in instead–and I’ll need the check for this book for uniforms and such. So I’ll finish the book first–and I’ll be on the train for New York on Monday the 8th. If they don’t attack by Sunday, then this flurry is just a feint and I’ll be able to stay in the East for several weeks, go over the MS with you, talk story, stay for Christmas, and have some fun. If war breaks out, all bets are off except that you will have the MS this coming week either way.”

These words appear in a letter Heinlein wrote in 1974 to a Navy officer then researching the biography of Admiral Ernest J. King. Heinlein refers the officer to copies of his correspondence then already in the archives at UC Santa Cruz to verify that the fact that what he states he wrote was truly writen to Campbell, at the time he wrote them. He goes on to observe “The Nips followed my scenario exactly, attacking at daylight on the day I picked as the only logical one.” [Unpublished Letter to Commander Thomas B. Buell, U.S. Navy, 3 Oct 1974, at pp. 40-1, ©Robert A. Heinlein. Cmdr. Buell eventually wrote the biography which was published by the Naval Institute about three years ago.]

Heinlein, as we all know from Grumbles and elsewhere reported for duty to the San Pedro Naval Station on December 8, but was refused recall to active service because of his physical condition. After various appeals, he eventually was allowed to serve the Navy as a civilian engineer at the Materials Laboratory at the Naval Air Experimental Station at Mustin Field, near Philadelphia. While awaiting his appointment as a Navy civilian employee, Heinlein finished “Waldo” while living on John Campbell’s couch in NYC (the proceeds of the sale paying off a hospital bill for Leslyn’s gallstone operation), and “The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag,” according to Gifford’s RAH:ARC in April 1942. Its appearance in Unknown Worlds in October 1942 was the last of his prewar fiction.

Is it sheer coincidence that two of his major ‘fantasies’ involving malignant beings (or in Waldo’s case, a truly malignant human being originally) were written by RAH during the period that he, frustrated at not being allowed to return as a commissioned officer and sea duty, and waiting to see whether the Navy would even employ him as a civilian? Both Waldo, which ends with a rescue, and Hoag, which ends somewhat ambiguously, certainly reflect that degree of terror that Chandler (the well-known and very successful author I quoted without identifying in my lead-off) felt mystery was ideally suited to convey.

April 1942 wasn’t a particularly bright time, either. In March, President Roosevelt had ordered MacArthur to leave the Philippines and set up his headquarters in Australia, build a base from which to defend it and to retake the Philippines which, by then, Washington had apparently written off. MacA arrived in March 17, only a week after the Dutch had surrendered 20,000-odd troops in Java, removing the only military obstacle between the Imperial Japanese Army and Australia, except the Ozzies and EnZacs themselves (and most of their men were fighting in North Africa). The only bright spot, a minor event militarily, but perhaps brilliant for propaganda purposes was Dolittle’s raid on Toyoko, the last week of March. Bataan fell as expected in mid-April. It wasn’t until May that the battle of Coral Sea took place, but that was counterbalanced by the surrender of Corregidor the same month, with Wainwright also ordering the surrender of 30,000 U.S./Filipino forces in Mindanao without the firing of a shoot; nor was until August until the raid on Makin Island and the invasion of Guadalcanal commenced.

A frustrated and somewhat terror-ridden story perhaps emerged from Heinlein’s pen in April as a result more easily than something else.

>To sum up; Heinlein didn’t write great mysteries because he didn’t seem
>interested enough in the mechanics required of such a story. Too
>constricting. Shame; the couple in Hoag would have been fun if they were
>on the tail of a more prosaic villain.

I’m not sure Heinlein was at all concerned with getting the mechanics “right” in Hoag. Hoag is a judgment on a large segment of American society — or, if nothing else, on Chicago society. Something’s wrong here is the fable conveyed.

The “aesthetic” judgment is it’s time to erase and start over. That’s the solution to the mystery, I believe. Not exactly Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with the the candlerstick, nor Mike Hammer plugging the blonde as she tries one last time to seduce him with his trusy .45.

>
>But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a
>good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions.

I agree. I’m not sure he felt mystery had established conventions. Chandler, for example, didn’t write his list until after the war in “The Simple Art of Murder,” and what had been written before them as ‘rules’ would amuse all of us tremendously (and lengthen this post too much), so I’ll omit them.

>Mystery’s loss is SF’s gain.
>

Mystery already had Hammett and Chandler and James Cain and others. It was doing quite well without him. Heinlein’s leadership and example was still needed by speculative fiction.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

Jane Davitt wrote:

[snip]

>
>In some ways, To Sail is better. That too opens with a murder and if you
>ignore Maureen’s life story and read just the bits set in the present
>it’s quite classic in the details of wrongful accusation, escape from
>prison, identification of the group responsible…
>

The title “To Sail Beyond the Sunset” is from Tennyson’s “Ulysses,” a fairly well known Victorian work.

The introduction to Hoag is a quotation identified only as from a work of Algernon Charles Swinburne (1837-1909), a younger Victorian, pre-Rafaelite poet. I’m informed by my anthology collections that Swinburne’s works are contained in 20 volumes, but none of my anthologies and no internet site I could find contains this quoted passage:

— the end is not well.
From too much love of living.
From hope and fear set free.
We thank with brief thanksgiving.
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives forever:
That dead men rise up never:
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Just as the title in To Sail bears a relationship to the novel, this quotation bears one; but is anyone able to identify it precisely? [and perhaps have access to the rest of the poem?]


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

David handed us the following:

> — the end is not well.
>From too much love of living.
>From hope and fear set free.
>We thank with brief thanksgiving.
>Whatever gods may be
>That no life lives forever:
>That dead men rise up never:
>That even the weariest river
>Winds somewhere safe to sea.

>Just as the title in To Sail bears a relationship to the novel, this
>quotation bears one; but is anyone able to identify it precisely? [and
>perhaps have access to the rest of the poem?]

At our service David. The poem is “The Garden of Persephone” by A.C.Swinburne, 1866. This is another of those often misquoted poems which is likely why you could not find it. The portion the is most quoted is the eleventh stanza. Complete work follows:

The Garden of Persephone

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds’ and spent waves’ riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

I am tired of tears and laughter,
And men that laugh and weep,
Of what may came hereafter
For men that sow to reap:
I am weary of days and hours,
Blown buds of barren flowers,
Desires and dreams and powers
And everything but sleep.

Here life has death for neighbour,
And far from eye or ear
Wan waves and wet winds labour,
Weak ships and spirits steer;
They drive adrift, and whither
They wot not who make thither;
But no such winds blow hither,
And no such things grow here.

No growth of moor or coppice,
No heather-flower or vine
But bloomless buds of poppies,
Green grapes of Proserpine.
Pale beds of blowing rushes
Where no leaf blooms or blushes
Save this whereout she crushes
For dead men deadly wine.

Pale, without name or number,
In fruitless fields of corn,
They bow themselves and slumber
All night till light is born;
And like a soul belated,
In hell and heaven unmated,
By cloud and mist abated
Comes out of darkness, morn.

Though one were strong as seven,
He too with death shall dwell,
Nor wake with wings in heaven,
Nor weep for pains in hell;
Though one were fair as roses,
His beauty clouds and closes;
And well though love reposes,
In the end, it is not well.

Pale, beyond porch and portal,
Crowned with calm leaves, she stands
Who gathers all things mortal
With cold immortal hands;
Her languid lips are sweeter
Than love’s who fears to greet her
To men that mix and meet her
From many times and lands.

She waits for each and other,
She waits for all men born;
Forgets the earth her mother,
The life of fruits and corn;
And spring and seed and swallow
Take wing for her and follow
Where summer song rings hollow
And flowers are put to scorn.

There go the loves that wither,
The old loves with wearier wings;
And all dead years draw thither,
And all disastrous things;
Dead dreams of days forsaken,
Blind buds that snows have shaken,
Wild leaves that winds have taken,
Red strays of ruined springs.

We are not sure of sorrow,
And joy was never sure;
Today will die tomorrow;
Time stoops to no man’s lure;
And love, grown faint and fretful,
With lips but half regretful
Sighs, and with eyes forgetful
Weeps that no loves endure.

From too much love of living,
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no man lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Then star nor sun shall waken,
Nor any change of light;
Nor sound of waters shaken,
Nor any sound or sight;
Nor wintry nor vernal,
Nor days, nor things diurnal;
Only the sleep eternal
In an eternal night.


Steve
“Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book
publications.” – Fran Lebowitz
eegle1@exis.net
webmaster@mnsdesigns.com
http://www.mnsdesigns.com/

jump101 wrote:

>David handed us the following:
>
[snip]
>
>At our service David. The poem is “The Garden of Persephone” by
>A.C.Swinburne, 1866. This is another of those often misquoted poems which
>is likely why you could not find it. The portion the is most quoted is the
>eleventh stanza. Complete work follows:
>
>The Garden of Persephone
>
>[snip from beginning to last line of stanza six]
> [In] … the end, it is not well.
>[snip stanzas seven through ten]
>
>From too much love of living,
> From hope and fear set free,
>We thank with brief thanksgiving
> Whatever gods may be
>That no man lives for ever;
>That dead men rise up never;
>That even the weariest river
> Winds somewhere safe to sea.
>
[snip twelfth stanza]

Yes, I do have it: inter alia at pp. 1158-9, Oxford Anthology of English Poetry (2d printing 1965).

I wonder why, if for any reason other than the obvious commentary on the story, Heinlein took lines from two stanzas and combined them? That’s unusual practice.

Thank you very much, Steve.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

Snipped:

>I wonder why, if for any reason other than the obvious commentary on the
>story, Heinlein took lines from two stanzas and combined them? That’s
>unusual practice.

That was a question I was asking myself as well. My first thought was that perhaps he had memorized it at one time and that he merely misquoted it, but I doubt that is the case.

You are very welcome.


Steve
“Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book
publications.” – Fran Lebowitz
eegle1@exis.net
webmaster@mnsdesigns.com
http://www.mnsdesigns.com/

David Silver wrote:

>How do you differentiate? If Magic, Inc., with all those malignant
>beings, Lucifer himself included, and humans, is fantasy, why isn’t Hoag?

Well it is fantasy but fantasy does touch on horror. It’s very difficult to put walls between genres; the best you can do in the way of classification is to assign a weight to each element in a book and slot it onto the shelf according to which seems to be heaviest. Which will be a subjective rather than objective decision and is one reason why such labels are artificial and of limited use. IMO.

>
>Rather than stopping at genre classification, I’d look at what Heinlein
>turned a not too terribly complicated mystery into: a parable or
>illustrative fable. big snip
>A frustrated and somewhat terror-ridden story perhaps emerged from
>Heinlein’s pen in April as a result more easily than something else.

Interesting point. I’ve always said that the publication date and the world events at the time are important elements in assessing a story. Unless the writer was a hermit on an island with no phone, TV or newspapers…

>>But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a
>>good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions.
>
>
>
>I agree. I’m not sure he felt mystery had established conventions.
>Chandler, for example, didn’t write his list until after the war in “The
>Simple Art of Murder,” and what had been written before them as ‘rules’
>would amuse all of us tremendously (and lengthen this post too much), so
>I’ll omit them.

I’ve read one such list….and it was noted that Dame Agatha broke most of the rules :-) There are rules though and there are for SF; Heinlein himself wrote about some. Not calling Martins ‘Smith’ springs to mind :-)). I see mysteries as being slightly more limiting than SF back then; it’s a whole new ball game nowadays.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>here are rules though and there are for SF;

The people who make the art tend to rely more on their “sense” of the subject matter than on formal rules — when you get overt rules, that’s generally a sign that the genre is no longer organically alive; it’s become a historical canon.

Bill
On 04 Feb 2002 22:19:42 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (David M. Silver) wrote:

>
>Yet, as I noted in another thread, Heinlein enjoyed and kept, even after he
>culled his library down when moving to Carmel, MacDonald’s writings. I suspect
>he enjoyed what MacDonald did in the last series he finally settled upon
>writing, the Travis McGee ones, inventing a figure who kept, despite his
>cynicism, galloping off to rescue fair maidens in that rusty armor, aboard the
>spavined steed. I suggest perhaps he enjoyed these stories because they took
>the genre hero in the direction he might have taken him: cf. Oscar, Colin
>Campbell/Richard Ames, Hartley Baldwin …

Ok…does that make Gay Deceiver the functional equivalent of Miss (?) Agnes? or of the Busted Flush?

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 23:28:37 GMT, David Silverwrote:

>BPRAL22169 wrote:
>
>>I may have had a second brain fart within 24 hours. I was reaching for the
>>name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.
>>Bill
>>
>>
>
>Mike Hammer. Another one, almost in that league, was Richard Prather’s
>Shell Scott, who was my dad’s favorite escapism.
>
>

Shell Scott, of the white caterpillar eyebrows….

At least no one has brought up the “baens” of the early 70s genre, the Executioner and The Destroyer….

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

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jump101st: OMG Another one!

fgherman: Flattery will get you everywhere

jump101st:

AGplusone: redheads are neat …

fgherman: That’s why I became one

AGplusone: LOL

jump101st: Yep. I’m owned by one.

AGplusone: my mom went red after dark auburn grayed on her

fgherman: That’s me

AGplusone: grandmother and great aunts were red

fgherman: Dark brown originally

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jump101st: My Mom never went gray… Clairol you know.

fgherman: (But only Joel knows for sure)

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: but grandma married a nice wop from Calabria, and the girls were all a very dark auburn

SAcademy: Large group tonight.

AGplusone: Hi, Denis, Ginny … “jump” is Steve …

fgherman: Evening Ginny

AGplusone: Getting there ….

SAcademy: Hello, Felicia.

Paradis402: Hi all!

AGplusone: David and MKeith are afk for a bit

jump101st: NW might be along in a bit.

fgherman: HI Denis

Paradis402: Hi Felicia!

AGplusone: watcha got him doin’, Ginny, writing for real?

SAcademy: David is that Jump 101? I’ve been wondering who he is.

jump101st:

AGplusone: Sure is … Ginny meet Steve: Steve, Ginny

jump101st: Hello Ginny.

SAcademy: I know. I suggested that he do a novel and he’s doing it!

AGplusone: Steve’s not all bad: jumped out of perfectly good airplanes once when he was young.

SAcademy: Not for me!!

jump101st: Jim? A novel? There’s a scary concept.

SAcademy: I haven’t any idea what it’s about though.

fgherman: About 250 pages 😉

AGplusone: Where’s Virginia Beach in Virginia?

jump101st: I jumped out of a good airplane last summer. It’s not the same as it was in ’72.

SAcademy: Has anyone seen those smileys that move?

fgherman: not yet

jump101st: It’s in the extreme SE corner.

SAcademy: I downloaded them but can’t get them to display.

fgherman: Joel needs me BRB

AGplusone: Good for you. Me, gave this up the same year I gave up riding motorcycles, dating actresses, and picking fights in bars — T. McGee

jump101st: In my day, you fell slowly under one. Now you fly them.

SAcademy: Boy, David you were really a heller, weren’t you?

AGplusone: [ actually did date two actresses before they made it. Karen Black was a nice girl.]

AGplusone: Yes. Not exactly your father’s T-10 are they?

Paradis402: Confession time?

AGplusone: sure, why not?

Paradis402: :-)

jump101st: I had lunch with Nichelle Nichols once. Does that count?

jump101st: :-)

Paradis402: Oh Yes!

AGplusone: She was a nice girl after I dated her too. Beat me badly in the bowling game we had on that date.

jump101st: You took her bowling??

AGplusone: Yes. We were eighteen.

AGplusone: Double date.

jump101st: OIC… that explains it.

AGplusone: Beautiful eyes!

SAcademy: Denis, are you that pale blue?

Paradis402: Paradis402 eyes of blue?

SAcademy: It’s so light that I can’t read it.

fgherman: Judy need this computer to do her homework.

fgherman: Have a fun chat.

fgherman: Good night

jump101st: …as in 5 foot 2, eyes of?

fgherman has left the room.

AGplusone: Tell Judy hi, and go push Joel out of the way

Paradis402: You are pale blue on my screen Ginny. We match. We should get on the ice.

AGplusone: Lunch with Nichelle Nichols definitely counts

jump101st: Nice eyes is NOT all the she had either. 😉

SAcademy: Denis, I am too creaky to skate any more.

Paradis402: Yes Steve. Ginny, you just don’t trust me on skates.

SAcademy: That is right. I trust no one on skates.

Paradis402: You are perfectly correct – as always.

AGplusone: You can always tell when the day of Armageddon is coming. Turbo Tax starts offering update software in your EMail.

AGplusone: [just checked EMail … ]

SAcademy: We were talking about penguins before we came here. I got some put on my desktop.

jump101st: They’re early this year. I wonder if the swallows will return early too.

AGplusone: I remember that cartoon …. Onus, the penquin …

SAcademy: Adelies. Bill found them for me.

AGplusone: Ever been down to Capistrano?

SAcademy: Yes.

AGplusone: they still get a few …

SAcademy: Swallows don’t go there anymore.

jump101st: There were a PITR in WA.

jump101st: They were… rather.

AGplusone: I think the Franciscans smuggle one or two in every year to try to reestablish them

SAcademy: I was telling Denis about the penguins.

AGplusone: but they may have given it up

ddavitt has entered the room.

Paradis402: I think Ginny would like a couple real ones to play with.

ddavitt: Hi all

Paradis402: Hi Jane.

SAcademy: Hello Jane. Changed your name again?

jump101st: Hi Jane.

AGplusone: Hello, Jane :-)

AGplusone: ’bout time to start?

SAcademy: Okay, I have to leave early. Up since 4 am.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

ddavitt: Changed my name?

AGplusone: Evenin’ Alan, just starting

SAcademy: Back to ddavitt.

SageMerlin: Greetings everyone

SAcademy: Good evening.

ddavitt: Oh, yes, I’ve kept it that for AIM.

Paradis402: Hi Alan.

AGplusone: Welcome everyone. Tonight is *mystery” theatre ….. ….

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

SAcademy: Hello, Jim

ddavitt has left the room.

jump101st: Hi Jim.

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening all.

Paradis402: Is Gwen coming? Hi Jim.

NuclearWasteUSN: Refresh my memory, Paradis402?

AGplusone: Why do you ‘spose Heinlein didn’t mention Hoag as a mystery when he talked about writing Mirrors, anyone?

NuclearWasteUSN: (and Hello, :-)

Paradis402: Grewn fro Cat Who Walks….

AGplusone: Denis=Paradis

NuclearWasteUSN: Thanks

Paradis402: Gwen:-)

AGplusone: what I’m getting at is: where was Hoag published originally?

SAcademy: Gwen=Hazel?

SAcademy: 1942 I think.

Paradis402: I think so. Gwen Hardisty

AGplusone: True, but it was in Unknown Worlds … did that mag survive past the war?

Paradis402: Where was Hoag published David? New York?

AGplusone: looking

SAcademy: Paper shortaage shut it down.

AGplusone: And the collection in which it later appeared wasn’t published until ’69

AGplusone: Were all the psuedonyms still not known in ’47?

SAcademy: Likely not. Although it wasn’t a closely kept secret.

LadyS122 has entered the room.

jump101st: My copy is from 1959… Ace in NY.

LadyS122: hi… do I need to adjust my text?

SAcademy: Nope, it’s okay.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello. :-)

AGplusone: I’m wondering, since Riverside was different than York, the Mirrors psued. whether there was some onus between mystery and sci-fi writers, whether editors felt one couldn’t write others.

SAcademy: Jim, have you seen the smileys that move?

AGplusone: Hi, Lady …

NuclearWasteUSN: No, not yet. I have been pretty much burried except for a short respite when Steve stopped by last month.

NuclearWasteUSN: The advantage to living way up North, lots of writing time during the Winter.

jump101st:

AGplusone: i.e., Ginny, whether the editor of Popular Detective had any connection at all with the sci-fi people?

NuclearWasteUSN: Hasn’t that always been the case? Pigeon-holing that is. If you write A, you can’t write B…

AGplusone: Whether the editor knew he was dealing with the author he was really dealing with?

SAcademy: Not that i k now of. R. decided he didn’t like writing straight mysteries, so he didn’t do any more.

AGplusone: Felt straight ones were confining? How: formula or preventing cross-genre stories?

AGplusone: I don’t know whether weird thriller tales were even considered mysteries by editors then … and I’m curious

SAcademy: He wanted to do the definitive story in each sub-genre.

ddavitt has entered the room.

AGplusone: wb Jane

ddavitt: Grr..computers!

SAcademy: Time travel, sword and sorcery, etc.

ddavitt: Sorry; did you all get any IM’s from me?

AGplusone: so each was strictly that, a water test …

NuclearWasteUSN: Not me

ddavitt: I got booted and couldn’t get in.

jump101st: Nor I.

SAcademy: No.

ddavitt: Oh wel, I’m here now.

Paradis402: No.:'(

AGplusone: [nor I]

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Dave Wright said AIM was a little flakey earlier

ddavitt: It said I needed I.E to get in! cheek.

BPRAL22169: Hi, all — I wanted to check the last few posts on AFH before signing on.

ddavitt: Hi Bill

AGplusone: so when he submitted, did he say to the editors, I’m from Sci-fi, or did he send the stories in blind so to speak, or did you know, Ginny?

jump101st: Greetings Bill.

BPRAL22169: Yo

McKevin0 has entered the room.

Paradis402: Hi Bill

AGplusone: Hi, McKevin

McKevin0: Hello

BPRAL22169: Hi, Denis.

SAcademy: He sent t=stories to Lurton who marketed them

BPRAL22169: That would have been 1946 or so — he wasn’t from sf at that point. He was starting over

AGplusone: Okay, then what Lurton did was whatever was necessary …

AGplusone: Any possibilty there was ever any other Edison Hill tale?

SAcademy: Yes.

OtherP1ans has entered the room.

SAcademy: No more stories of that genre.

BPRAL22169: We have Other Plans…

AGplusone: Hi, Plans … welcome.

OtherP1ans: Hello

ddavitt: Hi there.

ddavitt: Lots of people here tonight…

AGplusone: Okay, sorry to ask the questions, but I was trying to clear something up in my mind.

SAcademy: Any more questions, David?

AGplusone: When Hoag was published, at first, Unknown Worlds was sort of a Weird Tales type magazine …

reclusekrc has entered the room.

AGplusone: did mystery writers submit tales to it, or does anyone know?

ddavitt: Hi Kate glad you could make it.

BPRAL22169: It’s curious — “Hoag” was one of the last things he wrote before the War and it’s a detective story in which the detectives find out a lot of stuff — but not the job they were hired for.

SAcademy: I think Hoag was published in 1942

BPRAL22169: Oh, sure, Anthony Boucher was in it as H.H. Holmes.

AGplusone: okay

reclusekrc: hi – I’m a newbie to this sort of thing so I will sit quiet – for a while

BPRAL22169: There were quite a number of mostly American mystery writers.

jump101st: Yes, it was Ginny.

AGplusone: “krc” is Kate?

reclusekrc: reclusekrc

AGplusone: welcome, Kate … yes.

SAcademy: Thanks, jump.

jump101st: Welcome :-)

AGplusone: What’s the appeal about mystery stories that makes them attractive … the puzzle, or the terror … or, today, is it different for us?

SageMerlin: solving the problem

ddavitt: Morality tales; comforting as villainy always pays the price

NuclearWasteUSN: That is more Jane’s field

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: I dunno; I’ve given up trying to guess whodunnit.

AGplusone: Reason I ask is: are they nothing more than ‘gadget tales’?

SageMerlin: mcguffins

ddavitt: It’s a battle of wits

AGplusone: sometimes a pyschological battle?

SAcademy: No, there were some really good mysteries in the 30’s. S. S. Van Dine.

ddavitt: Definitely, if not always

reclusekrc: not for me – I am one of those horrid people who read the last section of a story first. I read for the people – regardless of the type of story – who do I want to visit in my head.

ddavitt: Very exciting too, especially the end when there’s always a confrontation.

SAcademy: Followed by the rough tough detective school.

AGplusone: And, about Hoag, is there something that is particularly disconcerting about it?

ddavitt: You read the end of a mystery first?!

BPRAL22169: And the cozy mystery before those.

reclusekrc: yep – makes husband crazy

AGplusone: What tale, for example, does Hoag remind everyone of?

ddavitt: I’m a cozy; Mike hammer type doesn’t appeal

ddavitt: Give up?

BPRAL22169: I like the Brits, particularly Dorothy Sayers. Except for Raymond Chandler, the Americans didn’t much appeal to me.

AGplusone: [that’s cause blonde broads obviously don’t appeal to you Jane]

ddavitt: I like both styles

SAcademy: Oh, yes, the one aabout Roger something. Agatha Christie I think

reclusekrc: see – I see hoag as more horror than mystery.

ddavitt: I am one:-)

SAcademy: Roger Ackroyd.

BPRAL22169: Ackroyd.

ddavitt: Yes; it crosses over into horror/fantasy very soon

AGplusone: There are two archtypal tales I’m thinking about

BPRAL22169: Agatha Christie?

ddavitt: Poe?

AGplusone: regarding the ending in Hoag

jump101st: Ellery Queen?

AGplusone: no, think Bible

reclusekrc: yeah, kinda Poe – not Queen!

BPRAL22169: The bit about not rolling down the window reminds me of Lot’s wife

AGplusone: yes!

SAcademy: E. A. Poe, too.

ddavitt: don’t look back…

BPRAL22169: But it also reminds me of Cabell’s end of Figures of Earth.

AGplusone: And the other …

AGplusone: Adam and Eve leaving Eden?

Paradis402: Eeek!

BPRAL22169: Yes — after God leaves them.

SAcademy: A Cask of Amontillado.

ddavitt: Hmm….they lost their innocence certainly

ddavitt: And gained dangerous knowledge

AGplusone: so, maybe the reason they’re still frightened when they get to the beach in Florida, is they looked back …

ddavitt: They wound down the window and saw the fog

AGplusone: [and gained dangerous knowledge]

ddavitt: Never quite got that; was it temporaray as erasures were made?

AGplusone: End of Sodom not in brimestone, but in ‘fog’ … the ‘fog of war’ perhaps.

SAcademy: Not to mention the mushroom cloud.

BPRAL22169: In Figures of Earth Manuel opens a window in his study and sees the fog — while wife and child are still visible in the window pane.

reclusekrc: fog of mystery

ddavitt: Really?

AGplusone: Uh-huh … but that’s ex post facto …

ddavitt: That’s interesting

ddavitt: When was that published?

BPRAL22169: FOE? 1922, I think.

AGplusone: ’42 for Hoag ….

BPRAL22169: The basic idea for the story may have been derived from Cabell’s next book, The Silver Stallion.

ddavitt: It’s interesting that H brought in the P.I’s and got at the secret that way

ddavitt: He could have done it other ways

ddavitt: not involving the Randalls

jump101st: 1921 BP.

BPRAL22169: There’s a segment in there where one of Manuel’s knights gets adopted into a pantheon and spends his time playing at world-making until the older gods say stop playing at childish things.

ddavitt: Maybe the juxtaposition of down to earth and surreal appealed to him?

BPRAL22169: Ah, but a detective’sjob is to uncover hidden knowledge. It’s thematic for the story. A fraught device.

AGplusone: Isn’t it also very interesting that the Randall couple are the only ones still having a great deal of fun … perhaps the reason Hoag saves them?

ddavitt: How did he pick them?

ddavitt: In his alter ego state?

ddavitt: How would the oblivious Hoag know that though?

AGplusone: Maybe his god, art critic stage knew who they were … the ‘upright’ couple, like the angels knew Lot

ddavitt: They’re an nice couple. Similar to the ones in let there Be Light

AGplusone: just as the art critic knew Potiphar

BPRAL22169: Stock characters in 30’s pulp tec fiction.

AGplusone: as a Son of the Bird

BPRAL22169: Made it into film as Nick and Nora Charles.

ddavitt: The Thin Man?

AGplusone: And why Potiphar as a name?

ddavitt: GMTA

AGplusone: or Boston Blackie and wife …. etc., etc.

ddavitt: What does it mean?

BPRAL22169: Potiphar was the Egyptian master of Joseph the slave, wasn’t he?

ddavitt: Joseph?

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: Hmm

BPRAL22169: After his brothers had sold him into slavery.

AGplusone: the master of the wife Joseph seduces

ddavitt: poor Donny

ddavitt: That doesn’t seem to fit

AGplusone: Is the business about extracting the soul related somehow to Lot’s daughters being used to satisfy the mob?

BPRAL22169: IIRC the biblical story, Potiphar has Joseph thrown into prison — where his dream-interpreting it noticed and he is thereafter elevated.

ddavitt: hang on; potiphar is in year of the jackpot?

AGplusone: That TOO

BPRAL22169: Slusser, I think, pointed out that there is a lot of failing in order to succeed in Heinlein.

SAcademy: Who is in the running?

SAcademy: Orson Scott Card?

BPRAL22169: I think in Jackpot, Potiphar is just the man in his culture; in Hoag the name might be more significant.

BPRAL22169: Running for what?

SAcademy: To succeed Heinlein?

AGplusone: And in Jackpot, despite winning Potiphar loses the battle, because the world ends … another erasure?

BPRAL22169: I don’t think there is any succession — no candidates I know of.

LadyS122 has left the room.

ddavitt: Soul extraction is also just a genre cliche; they’re holding his wife hostage so he’ll drop the investigation

reclusekrc: none worth discussing

Paradis402: Jubal Harshaw

ddavitt: They’re just doing it in a supernatural way

ddavitt: A scary way too

reclusekrc: confused now – what about Jubal?

AGplusone: And where, exactly, does Hoag come from … possibly They?

BPRAL22169: The horror or discomfort of the story is that nothing it what it appears to be — while all the time being right there in front of your face.

Paradis402: Successor to Heinlein in another dimension.

ddavitt: Mirrors..that was spooky.

AGplusone: They Do It With Mirrors, Jane.

ddavitt: doors into other diemnsions a la Alice

ddavitt: dimensions

Paradis402: Yes.

ddavitt: Heh, yes.

BPRAL22169: Metaphor for initiates — all around and visible but hidden.

AGplusone: :-)

mkeith54: or doors into your soul… mike

AGplusone: thought I remembered Mike, wb

mkeith54: tks

ddavitt: What you see in one is not what people see when they look at you…

ddavitt: Disconcerting

NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry folks, I have to run. Will be here Saturday.

AGplusone: wasn’t there also a bit of the genie in the bottle in the release of the soul back into Cynthia

reclusekrc: mirror = looking glass

ddavitt: Night Jim

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

AGplusone: g’night, Jim

McKevin0: been away – RAH – Sui generis

ddavitt: Scrying maybe?

AGplusone: define ‘scrying’ please

reclusekrc: a metaphor that has been used a lot – scrying bowl with water, etc

ddavitt: Foreseeing..predicting?

reclusekrc: farseeing, as well

BPRAL22169: Oh, scrying is very good. I had forgotten entirely about magic mirrors.

reclusekrc: to see what is happening elsewhere/elsewhen

AGplusone: Anyone do an analysis of the names used in Hoag …?

AGplusone: lots of ‘bury’ names ….

ddavitt: cynthia and Edward is it?

SAcademy: Falling asleep now. Sorry. Have to go. Nite all

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Night Ginny

AGplusone: night Ginny

reclusekrc: night

ddavitt: teddy..

AGplusone: And did you notice ‘briteyes’ again?

ddavitt: Missed that!

AGplusone: From Project Moonbase …

AGplusone: explanation: a character in the Project Moonbase script is Major Briteyes …

AGplusone: the lady commanding!

BPRAL22169: Cynthia is a moon-goddess

AGplusone: Ah, hah!

ddavitt: Really?

BPRAL22169: I believe that’s right.

AGplusone: And she’s “Briteyes” to Teddy.

AGplusone: But what do it mean?

AGplusone: Moonbase is another first flight to the moon story

ddavitt: Does it have to? Does Stranger cast too much of a shadow?:-)

AGplusone: Well, he’s working toward it … names and all.

AGplusone: I think Cat is a rewrite of Hoag.

ddavitt: Names certainly significant in Mirrors

Paradis402: Really?

ddavitt: Audrey johnson?

AGplusone: Yes …

ddavitt: Significant in that Heinlein would reuse them

ddavitt: How no one picked up on that story being him for so long is incredible

AGplusone: look how it starts and how he leave Campbell in Cat … dying, in a 50% failure mode

ddavitt: Full of clues

ddavitt: Cat was a mess when it came to the detective story

BPRAL22169: Had to go look it up. Cynthus is the mountain on which Artemis was born, so Cynthia = Artemis, virgin huntress moon goddess — and moon gods and goddesses are always associated with esoteric knowledge.

ddavitt: Gwen confessed! What a cop out

AGplusone: Gwen is the knowing one in Cat …

Paradis402: Gwen is Ginny.

ddavitt: Cat doesn’t count as a mystery after chapter2 or 3

AGplusone: How did Richard Ames/Colin Campbell roll down the window in Cat?

ddavitt: They don’t interview suspects, check alibis…not a railway timetable in sight

markjmills has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: I don’t quite see the relation between Cat and Hoag. Could someone point me in the right direction?

BPRAL22169: I do see the relationship to All You Zombies…

ddavitt: Gwen = Hazel was one way

Paradis402: I’m lost. Hi Mark

ddavitt: Proved to him that there are parallel universes

AGplusone: Unknown mysterious client (Tolliver) visits with mysterious request not fully stated … is killed first …

Paradis402: Gwen-Hazel-Ginny allee samee

AGplusone: and Cynthia

markjmills: Good evening, all — sorry I’m so late, new computer with fresh AOL dl. I’ll try to catch up….

ddavitt: Denis, I think AG is saying that like Randalls Colin learns disconcerting truth about what had been a stable universe.

AGplusone: Hi, Mark, I’ll send you a log … EMail addy, please?

ddavitt: Hi mark

reclusekrc: hello

BPRAL22169: That part I see — so thematic relationship, not plot or story line.

BPRAL22169: Of course, that’s equally true of Job, isn’t it?

ddavitt: Suddenly he’s nearly shot, kicked out of flat and on the run

Paradis402: Yes.

reclusekrc: very

ddavitt: Yes; boring life then wham bam it hits you.

BPRAL22169: And of NOTB.

ddavitt: And life is never quite the same again

ddavitt: Just like

reclusekrc: and yet – if you don’t like the game change it. Look in the mirror

markjmills has left the room.

ddavitt: But all stories start with the exciting bit I suppose

markjmills has entered the room.

ddavitt: Certainly can do that in cat; just get out the eraser

BPRAL22169: Depends on what you mean by “exciting.”

BPRAL22169: I’m still thinking about all the time loops in Cat.

BPRAL22169: Very complicated.

ddavitt: Change the past, delete that embarrassing incident in the past; no problem

ddavitt: I cannot ever read cat and feel i get it

BPRAL22169: Except that you don’t delete it — you just start a new track.

reclusekrc: a paradox can be paradoctored

Paradis402: Mystery messages in Cat.

AGplusone: just pour a little paint thinner on it …

ddavitt: I’ve tried but it still doesn’t make sense

ddavitt: Either h was being very clever or I’m very dim.

ddavitt: Or both.

BPRAL22169: Part of the problem is that up to Cat his theory was multiple parallel and diverging time lines through multiple dimensions.

jump101st: I’m with you on that one Jane.

ddavitt: Good, it’s not just me then :-)

BPRAL22169: In Cat he introduces some of the paradoxes of a fixed-immutable single-strand timeline.

reclusekrc: not necessarily diverging time lines

jump101st: Nope. :-\

ddavitt: Bill, it’s way too late for me to get my head round that

ddavitt: I just know he cheated

ddavitt: And he has to kill gwen now

ddavitt: But he doesn’t

BPRAL22169: Fortunately, I don’t have to write a study on it yet, so I have some time to think about it.

reclusekrc: all space in here all time is now . . .666

reclusekrc: okay – I’m talking to myself

ddavitt: I defy anyone to answer who the guy at the table was, why Gwen killed him and all the rest of it

BPRAL22169: That bit about killing Gwen is the Schroedinger’s Cat/Lady and the Tiger bit.

ddavitt: Multi person solipsism Kate:-)

ddavitt: We’re all talking to our tummy buttons

AGplusone: Hmmm … hitting the hour, suggest a five minute break?

Paradis402: Yes.

AGplusone: Then Jane can throw out a question?

reclusekrc: alive or dead Schroedinger’s Cat is pissed.

mkeith54: I always felt Cat was to be the middle of something a lot larger and I got cheated in some way

ddavitt: we’re all talking too fast; it scrolls up and I miss comments

BPRAL22169: A dead pissed off cat is easier to …er… live with.

ddavitt: Just seen yours about not divergent

AGplusone: Okay, informal break … startup at 5 past the hour. anyone else need a log to catch up, speak up now ….

ddavitt: I can’t type and look at screen at same time so i miss bits

AGplusone: Otherwise I’m going to water my Cat

BPRAL22169: Thre’s a lot of *stuff* going on in Cat.

Paradis402: Cat never died. Nor did Pixel.

ddavitt: OK, break it is.

jump101st:

AGplusone: I just had an evil thought …

ddavitt: ga

AGplusone: Naw, after the break …

ddavitt: While we’re on a break, did my money order arrive AG?

AGplusone: Yes, it has.

ddavitt: Good!

BPRAL22169: The Panshin thread on AFH is over 400 posts! Sheesh!

ddavitt: How’s THJ going Bill? Is it at the publishers?

BPRAL22169: (I just used the break to go check)

AGplusone: Yeah …. #@!&

ddavitt: Really? You don’t notice as you go along.

BPRAL22169: With any luck at all, it will go to the printer’s tomorrow.

AGplusone: waste of time … largely …

ddavitt: The journal? that’s a bit unkind:-)

BPRAL22169: I agree.

BPRAL22169: I always agree just after finishing one.

ddavitt: Kate, do you ever post to the sff groups?

AGplusone: But begrudgingly he said: I like the guy’s writing style. Does flow nicely.

ddavitt: Two heinlein and one Buffy group there.

BPRAL22169: Wormtongue

ddavitt: Lower volume, higher quality.

ddavitt: I haven’t read the next installment yet

ddavitt: deliberate mistake my …

ddavitt: If it’s there, someone would’ve noticed by now.

AGplusone: That was a very nice question you asked Jane … the one that led to the handout.

BPRAL22169: Actually, his sf is not bad — nothing wonderful IMO, but a good read.

BPRAL22169: Kind of like Keith Laumer.

ddavitt: And posting it guarantees it; the net is a bunch of nitpickers par excellence

jump101st: Panshin puts my knickers in a knot. :-(

BPRAL22169: His Villiers always reminds me of Retief.

ddavitt: Yes; funny he can quote from a lost document at length

ddavitt: But I don’t want to hand out my home addie

BPRAL22169: Well — If I got a letter from Northrup Frye, I’d have the good parts in MY wallet!

AGplusone: If he’d just un-obsess we could actually talk the guy into writing a better HiD (in my dreams)

ddavitt: I’ve never read his fiction, never come across it

jump101st: You saw my post regarding that, Jane?

AGplusone: I’d have it framed on the wall.

ddavitt: Yes; too much baggage.

ddavitt: Yes i did!

ddavitt: I don’t like him feeling picked on…but he isn’t in rasfw; why come to afh?

ddavitt: He knows what will happen…

ddavitt: He’ll start off fine and annoy people in a really short space of time

AGplusone: Actually if you go back about four years on Google, you’ll see they butchered him when he showed up on rasfw

jump101st: It didn’t take too long for me to get annoyed I and I just got here.

ddavitt: He has lots of defenders now who think we pick on him

SageMerlin: Well, if annoyed is what you want….

AGplusone: He learned a lot from that experience …. became ingratiating

ddavitt: Some people are talented that way

SageMerlin: At last something I can talk about

ddavitt: remeber the ‘secret’ of NOTB?

AGplusone: and adopted victimization as his mode of argument

ddavitt: maybe we can cut this from the log?

SageMerlin: maybe you should

reclusekrc: ha! just saw ddavitt message. – nope

SageMerlin: and I don’t even know what you’re talking about

SageMerlin: which is how I have felt all night

AGplusone: I’ll let Dave Wright make up his mind about it. Me, I’m not very nice …. “cross” is my attitude.

BPRAL22169: Do you think anyone noticed, David?

BPRAL22169: you’re so . . . *subtle* . . . about it.

AGplusone: I keep telling everyone …

ddavitt: If you mean the sff groups kate, try them.

ddavitt: If yor server will let you add them

AGplusone: Okay, back into the subject chat …

Paradis402: Cat was a multifaceted mystery by Robert. I think. Partly written for Ginny. A love story after Antarctica. Ask Jubal or the Penguins.

reclusekrc: are you talking about rasff?

BPRAL22169: One of these day’s I’ve got to load Netscape and get access to the sff. group.

ddavitt: Alan, why are you feeling lost?

AGplusone: I just thought of something: in a series mystery, something always seems to happen between the authors and his characters …. what?

BPRAL22169: She has a wonderful set ofpictures of Penguins with a copy of Friday. Penguin critics.

ddavitt: Denis I’m intrigued, say more

ddavitt: I know about that trip but how did it lead to cat?

Paradis402: Read Cat again. I keep rereading it.

ddavitt: Penguin is a fampus mystery publsiher

ddavitt: Famous

EBATNM has entered the room.

AGplusone: …. what happens, folk?

ddavitt: Sheesh..stone cold sober too

SageMerlin: Because everyone keeps talking about stuff I don;t know nothing about

BPRAL22169: Yo, Andy.

AGplusone: You have to lurk afh, Alan

SageMerlin: which I should be used to by now

ddavitt: Hi Andy

reclusekrc: not me – I have had a good 4 fingers of single malt

ddavitt: You should drag the talk firmly down to your level; that’s what i do:-)

EBATNM: Hi all, I actually *remembered* this was chat night

Paradis402: Sorry Alan. I keep going back to the mysteries in Cat.

ddavitt: Which one?

ddavitt: My husband collects them

reclusekrc: McCallums

ddavitt: You mean Macallan?

AGplusone: I ask again: in a series mystery, something always happens between the author and his protagonist character …. what?

ddavitt: Whcih is the name of one of our cats..

SageMerlin: Seems to me that Cat is filled with conundrums moreso than mysteries.

ddavitt: Talisker being the other

reclusekrc: ah, yes. Bottle is in other room and my spelling is not too good on my best day.

ddavitt: How old?

ddavitt: I got him the 25 year old instead of a wedding ring

SageMerlin: Topped off with one unfinished time travel paradox that gives me a headache every time I think about it.

reclusekrc: 12 – I can’t afford the others. Though I gifted myself with the 18 one xmas

ddavitt: No, that’s easy

BPRAL22169: Andy, I just sent you a copy of the log.

ddavitt: gretchen gets pregnant; hasn’t yet so they must survive

ddavitt: hasn’t slept with her yet I mean

EBATNM: Thanks

AGplusone: No, the author doesn’t inseminate the protagoist, Jane … :-)

ddavitt: Tho artifical methods and a quick trip back in time could do the job too

ddavitt: Lost me there..must be my sweet innocent mind

BPRAL22169: I’d like to hear an exposition from Denis — the most important points he thinks abuot CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS

ddavitt: 18 is nice and smooth ( the whisky, not Gretchen)

AGplusone: gonist … well, was asking what always happens in a mystery series between author and protagonist ….

AGplusone: almost always

Paradis402: Ouch. My conjectures.

ddavitt: And how it relates to the penguins

McKevin0: But they’re both very costly, Jane

ddavitt: Oh yes.

SageMerlin: I don’t know but I think that Robert Parker is doing a Dorian Gray thing with Spenser in reverse

ddavitt: So was a wedding ring

AGplusone: LOL

reclusekrc: *snicker*

SageMerlin: Parker gets older and older and Spenser seems to be 45 forever

AGplusone: when he made Spenser start to have ‘feelings’ I nearly puked

ddavitt: Is Richard hard boiled then?

AGplusone: Think he should shoot Susan Silverman

SageMerlin: Last time I saw Parker, he looked a little peaked

SageMerlin: I think someone should

Paradis402: Richard loves Gwen.

reclusekrc: Parker is not bad compared to Charteris. I think the saint is 35 forever.

SageMerlin: But as I recall Leslie really had some real world experience in the business

AGplusone: Okay: I’ll answer myself. Doyle kills Sherlock Holmes.

ddavitt: And poirot should have been 120

SageMerlin: parker was an english teacher at Northeastern

SageMerlin: Not really.

SageMerlin: It was only attempted murder.

AGplusone: Is it possible that Cat was the novel that Heinlein decided to kill his characters off?

SageMerlin: As we find out Sherlock never went into the Chasm

AGplusone: Gwen and Richard

ddavitt: tell that to the jury

McKevin0: All this talk of Scotch – now I’ve fallen off the wagon into some Bruichladdich

SageMerlin: Except that he brings them back again

ddavitt: Why would he be such a Black hat?

SageMerlin: I think the most interesting scene in Cat is the one between Richard and Lazarus

Paradis402: No. Cat was not meant to kill characters. Not the good ones. I think.

AGplusone: Yep, we call that a sherlock, bringing them back

ddavitt: father and son; just like a soap opera

BPRAL22169: I liked Grandfather Stonebender in CAT

ddavitt: But the baddies are so out of the picture; it’s like Star wars and you never meet darth Vader

AGplusone: Crais, btw, does that almost in L.A. Requiem

SageMerlin: Richard’s criticisms of Lazarus sound very much like Robert disclaiming responsibility for his most original creation

reclusekrc: I _liked_ Cat until we introduced LL. Am I the only one who got SICK of LL?

ddavitt: Oh yes.

AGplusone: Through Colin’s critical eye?

ddavitt: I really dislike him

SageMerlin: Ginny told me once that Robert was never able to control Lazarus

AGplusone: Maybe Colin is the inheritor of Hoag’s mantle of criticism

reclusekrc: ????

SageMerlin: that he keeps popping up whether you want him to or not

ddavitt: I would have had big fights with The Senior

AGplusone: You do.

reclusekrc: Most would

ddavitt: I mean, i got sick of him too

ddavitt: loved it when gwen gave him what for

ddavitt: ( as we British people say)

SageMerlin: No, I think that Richard/Colin is is Robert telling Robert=Lazarus to grow up and face facts

reclusekrc: oh, yeah. rather have a bastard in the family than . . .

Paradis402: That was what Robert wanted to achieve, I think, Jane. Lazarus did that to you.

rjjutah has entered the room.

ddavitt: So he got away from Heinlein? And Heinlein let him live?

AGplusone: Hi, Randy

SageMerlin: No, I think

EBATNM: Even LL didn’t like LL when he met him as a child

rjjutah: Hi, ladies and gentlebeings …

ddavitt: Yes; no reason to have a nice hero all the time; look at Job

ddavitt: Hi Randy

reclusekrc: hello. Single malt?

AGplusone: Good ol’ Alex Hergenshimer.

ddavitt: A true afher

rjjutah: Chocolate Shake, please…..

ddavitt: And an intruder

ddavitt: :-):-)

Paradis402: Lazarus enjoyed himself. Always.

AGplusone: We’re talking about the aspect of RAH’s possibly deciding to kill off his protagonists in Cat, just as Doyle killed Holmes.

rjjutah: How’s it going, Jane?

ddavitt: Fine, thanks, Ok your end?

AGplusone: ~ to mystery detective series …

rjjutah: Cold, but you already know about that…. :-)

ddavitt: So; did he relent? Or what?

ddavitt: Oh yes. Windchill is something I’ve never encountered before moving to Canada

BPRAL22169: LL isn’t the star of the show any more. He’s no longer in his element.

ddavitt: And he hates it

SageMerlin: okay I am off the wagon….and into a bottle of creme boulard, thank you very much

reclusekrc: I don’t think you CAN kill LL. . .muttermutter

ddavitt: Bet he wishes he hadn’t picked up Gay Deceiver sometimes

ddavitt: Except it got him Maureen

EBATNM: The whole point of CAT is that the author – Heinlein – didn’t write THE conclusion so – in the World of Myth – both endings were equally possible

SageMerlin: believe me I KNOW that’s a fact

AGplusone: But Colin is a LL substitute, isn’t he. the cloned leg even works for him as a transplant

BPRAL22169: Horus gives way to Isis.

ddavitt: The King is dead, long live the king

AGplusone: After all Laz is a little too old and important to get into all those 007 missions anymore

reclusekrc: huh? Where did Horus and Isis come in?

BPRAL22169: No — I think he’s got bigger fish to fry.

SageMerlin: but David’s right….it’s exactly like Doyle and Sherlock because the ending is so ambiguous

AGplusone: that too

ddavitt: So jr gets ‘volunteered’

AGplusone: ‘subbed in’ so to speak

BPRAL22169: Lazarus is the incarnatino of the magical child. When the Age of Aquarius passes, we’re back to Isis again.

rjjutah: Lazarus does what he always does best – manipulate others to do what he wants…

BPRAL22169: Then, I guess, Osiris again, but he doesn’t cover that.

SageMerlin: what else do leaders do

ddavitt: But it doesn’t work on his own chip off the block

BPRAL22169: Isis represents the age of the magna mater deities.

AGplusone: Or maybe, since Colin is really an author, the character is inverted as killing the author?

ddavitt: Head aches and I’m on diet pepsi

reclusekrc: ‘course not. Colin UNDERSTANDS LL

BPRAL22169: Perhaps Colin is RAH.

SageMerlin: But Colin isn’t really an author, that;s his cover

AGplusone: RAH: “This damned LL is killing me!!@!”

ddavitt: What genre is he in?

jump101st:

ddavitt: And he is a writer; he can’rt retire

SageMerlin: too much caffene

SageMerlin: Writers can too retire

ddavitt: ooh, sugar high; i might get hyper

ddavitt: Stephen King is..

SageMerlin: all you have to do is destroy all computers and stop making paper\

AGplusone: he’s really disabled military temporarily employed as a writer, isn’t he?

ddavitt: So that proves something

reclusekrc: nope – according to RAH they only stop selling

SageMerlin: which is how heinlein saw himself sometijmes

BPRAL22169: Well — RAH was disabled military “temporarily” employed as a writer, wasn’t he?

BPRAL22169: GMTA

ddavitt: Richard is real and so is Hazel; TWO authors

Paradis402: Lazarus is a spectator in Cat. The main thread is Gwen and Colin.

ddavitt: Nice point

AGplusone: [as I said, Jane, a real evil thought … ]

ddavitt: And Ginny helped Heinlein write?

AGplusone: uh-huh

BPRAL22169: I hadn’t thought about Hazel being a writer, too — Captain Sterling.

ddavitt: She was his first reader

Paradis402: She would deny that.

SageMerlin: Maybe ginny wrote the books and heinlein fronted for her

ddavitt: That’s how she convinced him she was her

AGplusone: Hazel kept sending the stories in under Roger’s name

ddavitt: Not very convincing incidentally

Paradis402: NO. Ginny inspired but she would deny that too.

ddavitt: Then she can write more!!!

ddavitt: We’re teasing Denis.

EBATNM: Jubal Hardshaw – another writer

SageMerlin: Earl Stanley Gardner

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, one of the most important preconditions for writing is thinking you can write

Paradis402: I know. :-)

AGplusone: telling Anne, now go finish it yourself. Anne: already did boss.

ddavitt: But I’m sure without her they would have turned out different. I’m sure she influenced them for the good

BPRAL22169: I think that was Miriam.

ddavitt: All the same…:-)

AGplusone: Okay, I’ll concede … Miriam is the name of the mother

ddavitt: Anne was mum too

EBATNM: *groan*

Paradis402: My opinion is that Robert wrote because Ginny was there.

BPRAL22169: They were all mothers.

ddavitt: Any of them could have finsihed off a Jubal story

AGplusone:

ddavitt: It’s a theme with this journal then…names

ddavitt: Dora

ddavitt: Ot Teena

BPRAL22169: I hadn’t thought about that — it’s a theme of half the journal, anyway.

ddavitt: Teena I think it was

SageMerlin: teena

ddavitt: Yes. see; writing’s easy, even a sentient computer can do it

EBATNM: So you don’t have to be human to be a writer & therefore a creator

ddavitt: But did it sell?

AGplusone: In a way, Hilda/Gwen was left to finish the story in 50% of the universes when Colin dies. Like Clarke is left to finish Poddy’s.

ddavitt: don’t get that david; when does he die?

EBATNM: It sold but was banned in Boston

ddavitt:

AGplusone: 50% of the time when you open the box

ddavitt: Oh..the box…

AGplusone: Called Cat in the Box

EBATNM: What _does_ one do with a dead cat. Anyway?

ddavitt: But Pixel did get hurt..that was nasty.

McKevin0: goes back in the box

ddavitt: Bury it in the garden under a tree it used to climb

BPRAL22169: Swing it. The dont object quite so m uch.

ddavitt: BILL!!

Paradis402: BILL!

reclusekrc has left the chat room.

SageMerlin: Right on bill

EBATNM: OK here’s one – since all of the Worlds are equally valid then it doesn’t matter if they lived or died in one universe since they would be alive in another

ddavitt: It matters to the one who dies

SageMerlin: Boo Hiss

reclusekrc has entered the chat room.

DavidWrightSr has left the chat room.

ddavitt: Got booted too?

reclusekrc: sorry – my isp dumped me off

ddavitt: There goes another

AGplusone: Yeah … okay, Jane … you get the next question ….

EBATNM: but only in that universe – in the other they escape by the skin of their teeth

ddavitt: Happens all the time Kate

ddavitt: What question?

Paradis402: The real Pixel has never been found. Went to find Robert.

DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.

BPRAL22169: That’s it, Denis. Exactly right.

DavidWrightSr: Hi folks. Just got bumped. Missed a few lines.

Paradis402: Thanks Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry I’ve missed most of the discussion. Had to doctor a sick computer for a friend.

AGplusone: Get rid of the virus, Dave?

ddavitt: Fix it?

DavidWrightSr: Two viruses. Cleaned out

McKevin0 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Can someone cut an paste from ‘What_does_one_do_with_a_dead_cat’ down to ‘That’s, Denis. Exactly right’ and send it to me.

AGplusone: doing it

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

DavidWrightSr: I’ll be quiet until I’ve read back over the log and see where we are

reclusekrc: I think we are all being quiet. Bedroom slippers

ddavitt: We seem to have stopped…I might have to disappear now

SageMerlin: we’ll wait

ddavitt: lauren may have chicken pox…

DavidWrightSr: Good crowd.

ddavitt: She’s kept me awake all week. Not that that’s new

SageMerlin: yeah….I am having trouble finding the waiter..

AGplusone: sent … aw, come on Jane … we need a question to roll the ball.

EBATNM: The Heinlein chat crept into the room on little cat feet …

ddavitt: Hey, pick on a quiet one

BPRAL22169: Actually we started out with mirrors — Jonathan Hoag and “They Do It With Mirrors.”

ddavitt: Who hasn;t said anything?

reclusekrc: I must fly – dinner calls.

reclusekrc has left the room.

ddavitt: It’s nearly 11 pm for me..

AGplusone: thanks for coming Kate

ddavitt: Glad you could make it kate

BPRAL22169: We do seem to be winding down.

ddavitt: See you on the groups

ddavitt: I’m suddenly exhausted

AGplusone: Mike: gotta question (disadvantage of quiet)

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, we don’t seem to have said anything much this time around.

AGplusone: Other than: are we crazy?

Paradis402: Lots of meat left for Saturday. Should be most interesting.

mkeith54: to me or another Mike

AGplusone: Yes, it should. I’ll make another post or two between then and now.

BPRAL22169: No, no – that always goes without saying.

AGplusone: You, sir.

mkeith54: Go ahead

AGplusone: So if someone answers the posts ….

ddavitt: I think it was a good discussion Bill; what makes you say that?

mkeith54: Does that mean some one is there

ddavitt: Stayed pretty much on topic

AGplusone: Any questions …. any questions at all … or thoughts, or interpretations

ddavitt: i answered your long post before I came in the room AG

AGplusone: Oh … missed it …. gotta read it.

ddavitt: And the Tunnel one is fun; thanks Dave!

ddavitt: Can’t beleive you never read PP as a child but it’s one to read as an adult too.

SageMerlin: Well, folks, hate to say it but I have to go back to work now

EBATNM: PP?

DavidWrightSr: You are welcome. Lots of things I haven’t read. Got hung up on SF and never read much else

DavidWrightSr: Peter Pan

ddavitt: Well, I’m off then. Don’t know if I can make saturday but I’ll try

SageMerlin: Have a good evening everyone

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: Q: what about the chat topic for next? Bill?

DavidWrightSr: Bye Jane. Oops too late

mkeith54 has left the room.

markjmills: G’night…maybe next time I can get the swing of the topic…

BPRAL22169: Did you want to do that one we talked about?

markjmills has left the room.

AGplusone: Yes, please.

mkeith54 has entered the room.

EBATNM: What time is the chat on Saturday?

AGplusone: 5 PM EST, 2PM PST

BPRAL22169: 2 pm, pst

rjjutah: DW-SR: According to your usual email message about the chats, there is supposed to be a link on your page, for getting info on AIM and joining the chats.

EBATNM: that means 1PM MST

DavidWrightSr: Anybody new who wants to be added to the mailing list for announcements? if so email me at dwrighsr@alltel.net and I’ll put you on the list

jump101st: 5? I’ll miss “Andromeda”.

rjjutah: I can’t seem to find it. Where am I going wrong?

BPRAL22169: OK — “No Bands Playing — No Flags Flying.” is it or is it not Science Fiction?

jump101st: :-)

BPRAL22169: I’m sure your life will be forever improved.

BPRAL22169: I don’t think we’ve ever done anything at all with that story.

DavidWrightSr: It’s in the link called Introduction in the left panel

AGplusone: And we could segue into cross-genre and borders of genres?

EBATNM: “Stone Pillow” w/o the prophet

AGplusone: And what Heinlein and others may have done with them …

rjjutah: Got it. Thanks.

AGplusone: pigeon holes or no pigeon holes …

BPRAL22169: Right. What about “Stone Pillow,” Andy?

EBATNM: are you going to define ‘Science Fiction’ before the chat or let it emerge?

DavidWrightSr: If you are on a PC, you can save a shortcut on your desktop to get you into the room automatically.

rjjutah: That’s what I’m trying to set up. This is a new machine and isn’t quite “broken in” yet.

AGplusone: Premeeting posts …. expect Sci-Fi, it’s faults and virtues to show up a little maybe?

BPRAL22169: No — that way lies madness.

AGplusone: emerging?

EBATNM: “No Bands – & etc” it would fit in nicely as “Stone Pillow” in the Future History if some sf’ian trappings were added.

BPRAL22169: How about “ignoring” instead?

AGplusone: ‘kay, but you’ll have to generate posts with something …

EBATNM: How can you say if something is SF if you don’t have a definition of SF? (Or am I being logical, _again_.)

BPRAL22169: I thin kI’ll start out with te background.

AGplusone: Okay … leadoff by Monday?

BPRAL22169: We can use the “Nature, Faults, Virtues” essay as background.

AGplusone: And you get to host?

BPRAL22169: All right.

BPRAL22169: Let

jump101st: Drat. I have an 0400 wakeup tomorrow. Catch you all on the boards. I really enjoyed this. :-)

AGplusone: Dave sent out great notices this time, really generated attendance

AGplusone: See ya, Steve

AGplusone: and thanks

BPRAL22169: Let’s see — the discussion topic could be — why is it an issue at all?

jump101st: :-) Yep.

jump101st has left the room.

BPRAL22169: So we can use it to talk about where the boundaries are and why.

AGplusone: first thought I had, Bill …

AGplusone: exactly

rjjutah: Does anyone here remember reading Asimov’s story “In a Good Cause”? It might make an interesting read when compared to some of Heinlein’s works.

AGplusone: I cannot. In print, Randy?

BPRAL22169: I’m sure I’ve read that one — but I don’t recall what it was abut.

EBATNM: I can’t recall

EBATNM: the work at all

rjjutah: It was about the contrast between a military man and a “peace activist” dealing with an alien war.

BPRAL22169: Not ringing bells — I know I’ve read it.

EBATNM: is it available in one of his collections?

rjjutah: It was set over three time periods, and in the end, the two were both trying to achieve the same goal, but by different routes.

AGplusone: be a good thought-provoking summary for the premeeting, Randy?

rjjutah: Give me a second and I’ll give you a citation……

AGplusone: kay

BPRAL22169: So we’re talking about the 21st and 23rd of February? Bad time for me — I’m supposed to go back to Santa Cruz at that time.

AGplusone: kick it to three weeks? Nothing sacrosanct about two weeks.

AGplusone: Go 28th and 2d

rjjutah: Jeopardy theme playing in the background …..

EBATNM: I’ll take ASIMOV for 50, Alex

BPRAL22169: I can make the 21st ok. The Saturday one is the kicker. It doesn’t get better for these long sessions once I’m in Santa Cruz — I pay for connect by the minute.

BPRAL22169: So neither 3 nor 4 weeks doesn’t do it for me.

DavidWrightSr: Did we ever work out anything with Connie Willis?

BPRAL22169: Or crais?

BPRAL22169: However, if someone else can host the saturday chat on the 23rd, I can do the one on the 21st.

rjjutah: It’s available in Nightfall and other stories, and “The Complete Stories”, and “New Tales of Space and Time,” edited by Healy. I suspect that those here have at least one of those books on their shelf.

BPRAL22169: (I have to get back in time to get the work cleared away before Norwescon)

mkeith54: time to go, bye all

AGplusone: Nothing that I know of on Crais. I think he may have gone into anabolic shock at 3 hour chats.

AGplusone: Night Mike. But I’m following up.

AGplusone: So far as Willis is concerned, know nothing

mkeith54: k

AGplusone: thanks for coming

mkeith54 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: We seem to be having 2 hour chats lately, anyway.

EBATNM: thank you

AGplusone: But, I think we can m/adjourn now, if no one has further …. I can do the Saturday, Bill.

rjjutah: EBATNM – I finally found a copy of “The Road Home,” and I am a happy person, because I can finally find out what happened to the survivors of our stalwart band.

DavidWrightSr: Anything need editing out?

AGplusone: I think I’ll mention that … a little discussion about Panshin midway Dave

BPRAL22169: OK — if that can work out, it’s the best of those weeks for me.

EBATNM: Man, I have not read that in DECADES!

rjjutah: I should be able to be here all Saturday also. I just got in from my Russian refresher class, when I showed up.

EBATNM: What about getting Norman Spinrad to talk about Heinlein and the Beats?

AGplusone: Great, see you all Saturday. Sure, if you know him Andy

DavidWrightSr: Horosho. ochen priyatno

BPRAL22169: You know, that’s not a bad idea — he’s really far off the beaten track. But he’s president of SFWA this year, and he may not want to tak ethe time.

EBATNM: *sniff* I dont, alas

rjjutah: Priyatno. Kak dela?

BPRAL22169: You can always reach himthrough normanspinrad.com.

BPRAL22169: “All Spinrad, All the Time. We never Shut Up”

EBATNM: I haven’t talked to him since 1979

SageMerlin has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: fsyo ochen horosho so mnoj.

BPRAL22169: David Wright could make the initial contact.

BPRAL22169: (Bet that gets him spluttering english again!)

DavidWrightSr: Norman Spinrad?

BPRAL22169: He wrote the introduction for Beyond This Horizon — very insightful.

AGplusone: That could be a leadin … we haven’t done BTH in a while either.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t recall that. I thought he came along much later than BTH.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

SageMerlin has left the room.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Was that a later edition?

SageMerlin has left the room.

EBATNM: He wrote an intro for a later re-issue

rjjutah: I’m very rusty with the transliterations – it’s been 25 years since I used it, which is why I’m going back and getting “refreshed.” Your skills are far above mine. But, at least I can eat and get to the toilet.

EBATNM: The important things in life

rjjutah: Don’t need much beyond that. :-)

AGplusone: Well, my spousal overlord unit informs me we are about to eat, says to tell you all her best regards but if I don’t come now, “the pigs get it”

rjjutah: See you later, David.

EBATNM: bye david,

AGplusone: Bye all … thanks for coming. I enjoyed it.

Paradis402: Good night all. See you Saturday.

BPRAL22169: Me too. Have fun all.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

EBATNM: bye all

EBATNM has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: I hate transliterations myself. I learned mine almost 40 years ago, but I do get a chance to practice it occasionally and I listen daily on the internet.

Paradis402 has left the room.

rjjutah: Yes, I’d rather see the actual characters. Transliteration just screws me up, instead of helping.

DavidWrightSr: If you want David, I’ll try to get in touch with Spinrad and set up something for sometime in March or later.

AGplusone: I gotta back up if you need it, Dave. Bye again

AGplusone has left the room.

rjjutah: Do svedanya, David!

DavidWrightSr: fsyo dobrovo. i do svedanye

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:08 P.M. EST

rjjutah: Ya ne panimaiyu “fsyo”?

DavidWrightSr: fsyo=all ‘bce’ with the little dots.

DavidWrightSr: Where did you learn Russian?

DavidWrightSr: Is this Randy Jost?

rjjutah: Spent two years at West Point (Junior College plan) and took Russian while I was there. Yes, this is Randy Jost

DavidWrightSr: When were you there. I have a friend who is a west point graduate.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: I learned mine in the Army too, Language School at Monterey.

DavidWrightSr: 62-63

rjjutah: I was there from July 1974-Sept 1976. Decided to go out and get a real EE degree, which you couldn’t do there, at that time. Monterey is the best, from what I hear.

rjjutah: Hi Tawn

DavidWrightSr: Hi Tawn. most everybody has gone already

TAWN3: Looks that way.

TAWN3: Hi.

TAWN3: Hi all.

rjjutah: But now that you are here, the party starts! :-)

TAWN3: I haven’t been here for awhile. Was the discussion good?

TAWN3: :-)

DavidWrightSr: I’ll check with John and see when he was there. It seems about right, IIRC. Qualls was the name.

rjjutah: I’m a tale-end charlie, too. But the part I caught looked good. I plan to be here Saturday and be a “player.”

DavidWrightSr: Don’t know how good. I only got back myself about 10:30.

DavidWrightSr: I do have the log and I’ll get it tomorrow I hope.

DavidWrightSr: get it out tomorrow.

rjjutah: You’d probably find the story “In a good cause” pretty germane,

David. Take a look at it if you get a chance.

DavidWrightSr: I don’t recall it, but I’ve read most of Asimov at one time or another, so I probably did read it.

OtherP1ans has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Got to run. See you Saturday, I hope.

rjjutah: Your best bet is to get the “Nightfall and other Stories” collection, which you’ve probably got knocking around somewhere. It has a very Heinleinish flavor, which is somewhat unlike Asimov, when it comes to military matters.

rjjutah: OK David
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 1-26-2002 5:00 P.M. EST The Evolution Of Presentation

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 1-26-2002 5:00 P.M. EST

The Evolution Of Presentation

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DennnEditor: Hello.

DennnEditor: You are early, too.

SAcademy: Okay. Was the topic posted? I missed it in that case.

SAcademy: Hi, Denis.

DennnEditor: Yes. But I have no idea what it means.

SAcademy: Wold you mind using boldface? I have trouble reading that light font.

DennnEditor: Is this better?

Paradis402: Hi Ginny, Hi DennE.. the topic is fluid I think.

SAcademy: A lot, thanks.

DennnEditor:

ddavitt has entered the room.

SAcademy: What fluid? Alcohol?

ddavitt: Hi everyone.

SAcademy: Hello, Jane.

ddavitt: Is that you twice Denis?

Paradis402: No it has to do with changes in reading books, evolution of eBooks, tapes and so on.

DennnEditor: *sigh*

ddavitt: oops, sorry Bill; thought it might have been a log alter ego as Dave Wright does.

SAcademy: We have a Denis P. and a B. Dennis. Confusing.

ddavitt: Isn’t it :-)

DennnEditor: I just couldn’t get AOL to give me a screen name with “Bill” and “Dennis” in it.

SAcademy: Jane have you seen those smileys that move?

DennnEditor: Although I could have used my old “Libertarian Bill” screen name.

ddavitt: I know; I keep getting stopped by the fact that I signed onto things years ago and now have a new email. It keeps saying my name is taken; it is – by me.

DennnEditor: … but I’m not confortable with that.

ddavitt: Not yet Ginny; any luck with them?

Paradis402: Not confusing is it Bill? You have one more than I do. And probably nicer too.

DennnEditor: probably

SAcademy: Downloaded them, but can’t get them into a useful condition yet.

ddavitt: Shame.

ddavitt: Sound like fun

DennnEditor: animated smilies? LOL

ddavitt: brb; have to get food out of the oven.

SAcademy: It really is. Thought I’d surprise people with them

Paradis402: AOL says on their welcome page you can send somebody a thumping heart for Valentines. Give me a break!

SAcademy: You mean you won’t send me one?

DennnEditor: Which is one reason I am not using AOL. Besides the fact that my ISP lets me use high speed cable modem.

Paradis402: Of course! Both of them.

ddavitt: Hold out for roses Ginny; less gruesome.

Paradis402: She prefers orchids. :-)

DennnEditor: reminds me of “The Telltale Heart” ….

Paradis402: Poe? Right.

DennnEditor: (is that the correct title? I last read it in grade school)

SAcademy: Actually green orchids

ddavitt: I got an orchid from David once valentine’s; a live one in a pot about 2 foot tall that his friend had grown form seed or whatever they grow from

Paradis402: Did you ever grow those? The green ones, Ginny.

DennnEditor: Anyone ever notice how the theme from “Jaws” is like a beating heart?

Paradis402: Yes.

SAcademy: Yes, I have a plant now. Got it for Christmas. Cymbidiumx

ddavitt: Flowered several times but we had to leave it behind Phallinopsis (sp?)

SAcademy: Scratch that x should be an s.

DennnEditor: People who hate plants send them to me. I kill them all.

Paradis402: Ginny is also our plant expert.

SAcademy: Phalaenopsis.

ddavitt: I have none now; as Ginny knows my cats and lauren kept eating ’em and turned out they were poisonous so I got rid of them

KultsiKN has entered the room.

DennnEditor: Hello!

KultsiKN: Hello, everybody!

ddavitt: That sounds right Ginny, thanks.

ddavitt: Hi Kultsi

Paradis402: Hi Kultsi!

SAcademy: Hi Kultsi. Greetings.

DennnEditor: I am going to have to set up a profile so eveyrone will know who I am …

DennnEditor:

ddavitt: Good news; Robert Crais will be a guest

ddavitt: Possibly the next chat

DennnEditor: Oh, good. The name is familiar, but I can’t recall what he has written

ddavitt: Any of you read him? I enjoyed his books a lot

SAcademy: Has Spider been scheduled yet?

Paradis402: Oh Jane. You and your hunks!

ddavitt: P.I stuff with a detective called Elvis Cole

ddavitt: He is cute:-)

DennnEditor:P. White write some more Sherlock Holmes stories?

ddavitt: Where did you finsih on Thursday after I left?

Paradis402: We were on Mars.

DennnEditor: In one, he had a poisonous snake crawling down a rope. That can’t do that apparently.

ddavitt: Lots of people have Ginny…don’t know about AP

SAcademy: I think under the name of H. H. Holmes.

ddavitt: Oh..but wasnt that a murderer’s name?

SAcademy: He had several pseudonyms going.

ddavitt: Rocket to the Morgue may have been under that name originally

DennnEditor: Nicholas Meyer wrote a couple … 7 percent solution and another one, I believe

ddavitt: It is a huge genre

ddavitt: I like the ones about Irene Adler

ddavitt: And of course, the laurie King ones

ddavitt: Beekeeper’s Apprentice and the sequels

DennnEditor: Phil Farmer wrote on that had Holmes and Watson meeting young Tarzan.

ddavitt: Conan Doyle would have been intrigued

Paradis402: That must have been a stretch for Tarzan!

DennnEditor: Of course, PJFarmer started whole sub-genre in which Tarzam, Holmes and other pulp heres are all related

ddavitt: And there are the Jane Austen myseteries; with her solving crimes.

SAcademy: Did anyone start a log?

ddavitt: I can save it all from where I came in

ddavitt: Dave Wright won’t be here

ddavitt: So he asked if we could send it to him

Paradis402: I have it in HTML format from the start.

DennnEditor: I don’t think anything all THAT important has been said.

ddavitt: Did it work OK on Thursday Denis?

SAcademy: I think Bill is relaxing he had an eye exam this morning, and can’t see probably.

ddavitt: No, and I can’t stay for the whole time so let’s start then

Paradis402: I sent it to him. But no reply yet. It worked the last time I sent it that way.

ddavitt: If he had those drops, no probably can’t

ddavitt: OK, we were looking at Heinlein books in the future and the past; different ways of presenting them and which work best

SAcademy: He expected to have those drops.

DennnEditor: Speaking of chatroom logs, I listened in on a World Church of the Creator chat room on Thursday. This is that racist group that is growing in popularity.

ddavitt: I grudgingly was persuaded that e-books are handy on space flights to save weight

Paradis402: How did all that go?

SAcademy: Ever attend a Holy Rollers meeting?

ddavitt: We had a Watchtower seller round today…

DennnEditor: Yes! My grandfather was a Holy Roller minister.

DennnEditor: I was a little kid and it scared the Hell out of me.

SAcademy: Really?

DennnEditor: He just did it to raise money. He also was a moonshiner

SAcademy: Great combination.

DennnEditor: He got out of both rackets and went to work elsewhere.

ddavitt: Water into wine…

SAcademy: Didn’t the moonshine pay well?

DennnEditor: He thought it was dishonest. The preaching, that is.

ddavitt: Obviously no conflict of interests

Paradis402: Did you want to see if that Church was another version of Scientology, Bill?

DennnEditor: Well, it paid well, but he faced competition from folks who do not tolerate competition, if you catch my drift.

DennnEditor: World Church of the Creator?

Paradis402: Yes.

DennnEditor: No, not scientologists. It is a white supremacist organization

Paradis402: Ooo>:o

DennnEditor: It is based in East Peoria, very close to where I live in Peoria.

SAcademy: Robert knew L. Ron Hubbard.

DennnEditor: My paper is stepping up coverage of them

ddavitt: Why? isn’t that giving them publicity?

SAcademy: He was always going to borrow an airplane and come to see us, but he never made it.

DennnEditor: They get publicity anyway.

Paradis402: They impounded it, Ginny.

DennnEditor: Believe me, it is a myth that media ignoring these people make them go away.

DennnEditor: It is wishful thinking.

ddavitt: Isn’t it hard to write about them objectively?

SAcademy: Well, I never met him. He was a really colorful character.

DennnEditor: “Objective,” in newspapering doesn’t mean “don’t have an opinion.”

ddavitt: We have a current story; local woman charged with assault for breaking up a same sex wedding and haranguing the congregation.

DennnEditor: It means sticking to known facts and giving all a change to comment.

DennnEditor: a chance to comment, I mean

ddavitt: Paper is doing a fair job of printing views from both side but obvious that they are against her.

DennnEditor: … and there are papers in which it would be obvious they are FOR her.

DennnEditor: It depends on publication and reporter.

DennnEditor: … a good editor would weed that out.

ddavitt: Canadians are pretty tolerant about people making up their own minds

ddavitt: Someone spoiling a wedding wouldn’t get much sympathy

DennnEditor: nope.

ddavitt: Anyway…

DennnEditor: remember that minister who picketed the funeral of that gay hate crime victim?

DennnEditor: Even Jerry Falwall had to distance himself

ddavitt: No, sounds awful thing to do tho

ddavitt: Even jerry huh?

DennnEditor:

DennnEditor: real books

Paradis402: I still buy only books. Falwell and Swaggart and Panshin in a boat.

ddavitt: This is a good chance to read it without it costing me anything

SAcademy: Well, Bill unearthed a letter from Robert to L. S. deCamp and it tells the real facts about Panshin and HID

DennnEditor: really? LOL

DennnEditor: What does it say?

ddavitt: Is that what Jim G meant when he told Panshin he was going to expose him?

SAcademy: I gave permission to put it online. Gidfford is going to do that.

ddavitt: Ah, must have been.

Paradis402: We will have to wait until Bill publishes that Biog.

KultsiKN: This is going to be fun.

ddavitt: Ginny, do you think Mr Heinlein would have used the new tech and let his books be published for palm Pilots and such?

SAcademy: It sure will be for our side.

ddavitt: You were both into computers from the start after all.

DennnEditor: I tried … I mean really tried … to read Panshin’s site. But it is all so ephemeral. He writes like a college English teacher trying to impress his doctoral committee. It sounds authorative, but it never gets to a point that can

SAcademy: Is that something you want?

DennnEditor: be proved or disproved

DennnEditor: authoratative

ddavitt: I don’t but I think as Sf writer maybe it would have been logical. Still printed as a book but also downloadable

DennnEditor: d’oh

SAcademy: There are now two books with one online publisher, and one with Stealth. That’s a print volume and a very tpretty one

ddavitt: Is it selling better from print or online?

Paradis402: I don’t want eBooks, soft books or a computer screen on the ceiling of my bedroom. And NO Panshin for me.

SAcademy: Haven’t had royalty reports yet.

ddavitt: I don’t want to be a Luddite..but I love books and the older the better

ddavitt: Though a new book is very nice too; being the first to read it is a special feeling

DennnEditor: Theoretically, publishiing online for a fee is a way to bypass book publishers, who act as middle men. More of sales go to the writer.

Paradis402: Really?

ddavitt: But wondering who else read one that’s over a hundred years old is fascinating

KultsiKN: I do a lot of reading on computer, but I don’t really like it.

SAcademy: Books will continue to be around, Jane.

DennnEditor: But I suspect that publishes play a more important role in promoting a book than most people realize

ddavitt: It should be cheaper I suppose as less overheads

ddavitt: And it does save paper

DennnEditor: I also love the smell and feel of books.

DennnEditor: Jane, paper is a renewable resource

ddavitt: Which, as I keep telling Eleanor, doesn’t grow on trees

DennnEditor: boo

SAcademy: Remember, Neil’s Pulpless books failed.

ddavitt: Only if people repalnt

ddavitt: replant

DennnEditor: I hate bad puns that I didn’t use first

ddavitt: Was he ahead of his time?

ddavitt: Need more people with the ability to download to portable readers

DennnEditor: If I didn’t have to go to bookstores, I would never leave the house

ddavitt: You just can’t read on a static computer all the time.

ddavitt: That’s why i couldn’t watch a DVD on a computer

DennnEditor: … and besides, I love sipping overpriced coffee and eating muffins at the B&N.

ddavitt: Want a comfy sofa, company, not squahed up against the screen

ddavitt: My spelling is wild tonight

ddavitt: I meant squashed

SAcademy: The scroll on this machine jams every so often.

ddavitt: I want to get locked in a book store…one with a coffee shop in it and those nice chairs

Paradis402: Kultsi, do you like eBooks?

SAcademy: Heinlein books anyway.

KultsiKN: Never tried, but as I said I read a _lot_ on PC.

SAcademy: AD.

KultsiKN: And don’t like it very much.

DennnEditor:

ddavitt: Someone said it’s harder to process the words on a screen?

DennnEditor: It depends on the contrast/layout/other distractions.

ddavitt: It just wouldn’t feel as if I owned it if it was a file on my computer instead of a volume on my shelves

KultsiKN: I think there is something to that. I utterly dislike the man pages on *nix systems.

ddavitt: Where is the aesthetic pleasure?

ddavitt: Suppose your computer crashed?

DennnEditor: Right. every book I buy and read is placed on a shelf for visitors to see. It shows how well-read I am.

DennnEditor: Correct Jane.

DennnEditor: I lost HUNDREDS of books in a flood.

ddavitt: The library is the first room as you come in. people stop and say, “oh, what a lot of books. Have you read them all?”

DennnEditor: most of my PJFarmer, ERBurroughs.

ddavitt: I am running out of polite replies

ddavitt: That is a tragedy

ddavitt: I dread that or a fire

SAcademy: We gave away aabout 10,000 books when we left Bonny Doon.

ddavitt: Let me know if you have a wants list and I’ll keep an eye out for you

DennnEditor: I could never give away books. I am always rereading them

ddavitt: Fiction or non fiction Ginny?

Paradis402: I’ve put 10 tons of my scientific stuff on Disk but I like my Heinlein to be real and in my hands.

SAcademy: Both Jane.

ddavitt: Non fiction is good online because it is searchable which would be handy

ddavitt: That must have hurt…

DennnEditor: No wants list. I just haunt Peoria’s six or seven used book stores.

ddavitt: Well, if you ever get down to one you can’t find let me know

DennnEditor: It gets worse … I lost all my *comic books* …

SAcademy: An encyclopedia of Magic, and my treasured book f Scandinavian design.

ddavitt: Try the charity shops; I get lots from there

ddavitt: Like in NOTB…

ddavitt: Just no room for hem Ginny?

ddavitt: them

SAcademy: I can’t read anymore so it shouldn’t matter.

DennnEditor: charity shops usually have only Old readers Digest condensed fiction.

ddavitt: You can still hold them

SAcademy: That’s right.

ddavitt: Heh…you have a poor class of thrift shops then

DennnEditor: Books also make great soundproofing when up an a bookshelf.

ddavitt: I got a first edition Elsie Oxenham once…

ddavitt: What a find.

SAcademy: Who is she?

DennnEditor: … of Peorians tend to snap up all the good books. (This must be true because I can rarely find Heinlein stuff … 😉

ddavitt: (very collectable childrens author)

ddavitt: Wrote in 1920’s 30’s

DennnEditor: “or Peorians tend … ”

DennnEditor: silly typos

ddavitt: Lots of camp fire books, school stories. Most famous were the Abbey Girls stories

SAcademy: What was it Peanuts said “silly jumpropes?

DennnEditor: I once found a dollar bill in a used book … it was being used as a bookmark, apparently.

DennnEditor: Probably Mrs. H.

ddavitt: Showed proper respect for the book

ddavitt: My bugbear is people writing in them

DennnEditor: It showed that it pays to read.

ddavitt: Once, they wrote (in ink) ‘This is the murderer!!” next to a name of a character.

DennnEditor: grrrr

Paradis402: 😀

SAcademy: You must have encountered some uninteresting marginal notes!

DennnEditor: … a case for justifiable homicide, IMHO

ddavitt: And the people who take it upon themselves to correct grammar ( invairiably wrong themselves) should be sent somewhere…special.

KultsiKN: Critics’ lounge?

ddavitt: That’ll do nicely:-)

SAcademy: Guess I’m exempt–I majored in chemistry.

ddavitt: You’re safe then

SAcademy: Thank you.

ddavitt: Well, I can’t think of more to say on the topic

DennnEditor: Used books are great when you want a complete collection and a book is out of print.

ddavitt: So I may go and eat

ddavitt: Yes; and now I can see all the ones online that I can’t afford to buy

ddavitt: But one day…

DennnEditor: I am still looking for a copy of “Rocketship Galileo (sp?)

ddavitt: I have got some that I never thought I would ever own

DennnEditor: copy

ddavitt: First ed?

Paradis402: OT, Jane do you want me to send you an e-copy of the log too?

DennnEditor: no, no. paperback would be fine.

DennnEditor: I found “Space Cadet” several months ago … which I had never read before.

ddavitt: No, I’ll read it on Dave’s page, no need to bother. Thanks anyway.

SAcademy: Have you tried eBaY?

DennnEditor: It was great! New Heinlein mamerial!

ddavitt: Oh well I’ll watch out for it

ddavitt: Or the Heinlein bookswap page; is that still going?

ddavitt: Don ran that

Paradis402: What is mammerial. Freudian?

SAcademy: You just want a reading copy?

ddavitt: But he hasn’t been around for months

DennnEditor: I think I have. I may give it a try. I still haven’t given up on finding it used, though.

DennnEditor: God, I am soooo cheap.

ddavitt: Is it on Amazon? Is it in print?

DennnEditor: Well, I want one what will look OK on my shelf. I’ll probably breat down and order a copy somewhere.

ddavitt: If so, they list used copies too

DennnEditor: break

ddavitt: And the prices

ddavitt: david is saying it’s time to eat so I will vanish; see you all soon.

DennnEditor: I find the idea of fighting Nazis on the Moon to be priceless.

ddavitt: Hope you can make it for the Crais chat

ddavitt: Night.

DennnEditor: I am going to leave too.

ddavitt has left the room.

SAcademy: Bye Jane

DennnEditor: I’ll stop back in later see if anyone else has come in.

DennnEditor: talk to you all at a later date.

SAcademy: Bye now.

Paradis402: What’s up, Kultsi?

DennnEditor has left the room.

SAcademy: Good that people leave when they say they will. I hate people who stand in the doorway talking.

Paradis402: I agree.

KultsiKN: Nothing special, really — trying to survive the winter :-)

SAcademy: Snowy always tries to escape.

SAcademy: Is it a bad winter, Kultsi?

Paradis402: He is a snow Cat.

KultsiKN: Going up and down like a yo-yo, not very nice.

KultsiKN: One day rain, next day snow with wind.

SAcademy: A lot of snow?

SAcademy: Buffalo really got it this year!

KultsiKN: Very little here; more ice.

SAcademy: Several feet of snow!

KultsiKN: Our weather is mostly — moderate.

SAcademy: That might be good for skating, but I was a hothouse flower.

SAcademy: Liked indoor ice.

SAcademy: Funny, I would have thought it would be a continental climate. More like Buffalo.

SAcademy: Helsinki is pretty far north.

KultsiKN: More to the East it is.

KultsiKN: I mean like Moscow.

SAcademy: I see, the water nearby tempers the weather.

Paradis402: Like Vancouver?

SAcademy: Moscow must be horrid in winter!

SAcademy: The San Juan Islands.

KultsiKN: Is there a time when it isn’t?

SAcademy: No, you’re right about that. Ever go there?

KultsiKN: Just passing through once.

SAcademy: The San Juans are what they call a “banana belt”

Paradis402: Where are they, Ginny?

SAcademy: We nearly froze on May Day.

SAcademy: Straits of Juan de Fuca.

Paradis402: :'(

SAcademy: The Canadian and American islands between the mainland and Vancouver.

Paradis402: Thanks. I’m going brain dead or Alzie.

SAcademy: Alzheimers is no laughing mattteer.

Paradis402: So Spider switched oceans.

KultsiKN: Oh, that’s no biggie; once diagnosed you can go home and forget all about it…

SAcademy: Yes, he did. Nova Scotia is far worse in climate!

Paradis402: Yes/ I just need more RAM Kultsi. Maybe more Disk space.

SAcademy: What about the manic phases, Kultsi?

KultsiKN: Well, actually, they are not nice at all, the diseases, that is.

SAcademy: A friend of mine just found out his mother had it. She was manic for days.

KultsiKN: It’s a terrible strain on all close by, just to watch someone fading away.

SAcademy: Yes. I see it all the time here.

SAcademy: Fon’t let anyone ever tell you that a “retirement community” is a good place to live.

SAcademy: Don’t

SAcademy: It’s very depressing to see.

KultsiKN: I can imagine.

SAcademy: I wish I had thought of that before I came here.

SAcademy: It’s only my friends outside who keep my spirits up.

SAcademy: That and work.

Paradis402: Ginny, it’s everywhere. You have to focus on the beautiful like your little white lion.

SAcademy: He’s part of my young friends outside!

Paradis402: Indeed. He is.

SAcademy: Thank you Denis. I guess it’s time I quit for the day.

Paradis402: I guess no one else will show. Maybe we should close and send the log to David.

KultsiKN: Yeah, me too! Must wake up early.

Paradis402: Nice talking to you Kultsi.

SAcademy: What time is it there Kultsi?

KultsiKN: Nice talking to you, too!

KultsiKN: Quarter past one, AM.

SAcademy: Ouch. Get some sleep!

SAcademy: Bye all.

SAcademy has left the room.

Paradis402: Bye Ginny.

KultsiKN: I’ll do. Bye.

Paradis402: Bye Kultsi

KultsiKN: Bye, take care.

KultsiKN has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 01-24-2002 09:00 P.M. EST The Evolution Of Presentation

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 01-24-2002 09:00 P.M. EST

The Evolution Of Presentation

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Due to holiday festivities the chat sessions have been on hold but I guess it’s time to stop nibbling the left over chocolates, throw out the egg nog and get back to work :-)

We hope to have some guests in the very near future and I’d like to schedule a chat for a week on Thursday. If any of you regulars have ideas for future topics, please feel free to post/email them and anyone who hasn’t joined in before who wants to, then we’d be glad to see you. Full instructions and logs of earlier meetings are here; http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

(One note; my email is not @home but @rogers now.)

OK, we need a topic to kick start the new year. I had a thought; the evolution of the way Heinlein’s words reach his readers with some speculation as to the best method (acknowledging that this is subjective).

IOW, he was first printed in the pulps; disposable, read once magazines. From there he moved to the slicks and to the more durable medium of books. Radio plays explored another method of presentation with the extra (perhaps unwanted) depth that a voice brings, good if you don’t prefer your own imagination. TV added another dimension and even more for a ‘reader’ to approve or disapprove of. We’ve seen movies which, despite huge budgets, disappointed many fans.

There are books on tape, downloadable e books, computer games, comic books of ST, role playing books and games…..the message a little diluted perhaps but all with a bit at the centre that is Heinlein’s vision. So; are books best? Or am I hopelessly dated? I’ll finish with this from Space Family Stone/Rolling Stones;

“The entire family, save the twins, tended to be old-fashioned about
books; they liked books with covers, volumes one could hold in the lap.
Film spools were not quite the same.”

I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they will go the way of vinyl records?

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they will go
the way of vinyl records?< Jane, Let me answer this way: There are several places on line where old classics by T. Roosevelt, Huxley, etal are available. I sometimes find something I want to read so I download it, find it impossible to read at such length off the screen and then print it out to read. I sometimes ponder whether the HDTV screen will eventually make a difference but todate have no answer to that question. Dehede Jane Davitt wrote: >”The entire family, save the twins, tended to be old-fashioned about
>books; they liked books with covers, volumes one could hold in the lap.
>Film spools were not quite the same.”
>
>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they
>will go the way of vinyl records?
>
>Jane

I tend to think books might be around, but I think there will be less interest in reading books in the year 2102. I think people will continue to read because it’s the best way to take in information, but other forms of entertainment might supplant reading.

I actually do more reading now off of the computer screen than I do from books, including work or play. I’ve just ordered an RCA REB-1100 ebook reader. I want to read more novels and short stories, and I’m hoping the reader will make it easier for my bad eyes to enjoy reading for long periods. I read better from computer screens because the fonts are bigger. So one of my first goals will be to collect Heinlein ebooks. Unfortunately, there aren’t many.

But think how convenient it would be to participate on this group with an ebook reader by my side that had all of Heinlein stored in it. Quick searches across all the volumes would be instant. That would be cool.

However, I do think kids books will still be popular. Big colorful, easy to hold books for children are probably the optimum format. Kids have to learn to read, and I hate seeing little kids spending too much time in front of computers.

Jim Harris

In article, Jim Harriswrote:

> I’ve just ordered an RCA REB-1100 ebook reader. I
>want to read more novels and short stories, and I’m hoping the reader will make
>it easier for my bad eyes to enjoy reading for long periods. I read better
>from computer screens because the fonts are bigger. So one of my first goals
>will be to collect Heinlein ebooks. Unfortunately, there aren’t many.

I completely agree with you about the balance shifting from the printed word to the computer screen and I deplore it. I do it — but I deplore it. However, as you (? — someone) said, there are some very old goodies that are accessible only in e-format. (The first ebook I ever downloaded was “Rupert of Hentzau” just because the last time I had read it, it had taken me six months to find a copy.)

The ebook reader you mention is new to me. Could you advise me how it works? I will very much appreciate your information.

Finally, RAH did mention “time and again” that there are times when it doesn’t matter that the book-scroll being projected above your bed and the touch-sensitive switch in your hand controlling it are the easiest and most convenient forms for reading–sometimes snuggling down with a big, old “smelly” comfortable book is the best.

Dr. Rufo

Pax Vobiscum
Dr. Rufo wrote:

–sometimes snuggling down with a big,
>old “smelly” comfortable book is the best.
>
>
>

There’s a very poetical bit in an early episode of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer (I Robot,You Jane). The librarian Giles is at loggerheads with Jenny, a computer teacher. She asks him why he doesn’t like computers and he replies, “The smell”. “But”, she answers, “computers don’t smell.” “I know” he said. “Smell is the most powerful trigger to the memory there is. A certain flower, a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences long forgotten.

Books smell. Musty and…rich. The knowledge gained from a computer is…it has no texture, no context. It’s there and then it’s gone. If it’s to last then the getting of knowledge should be tangible, it should be….smelly.”

Might not be exact but that’s about it and I know if I find something good on the ‘puter, I print it off….I want it tangible too.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Jane Davittwrote in message news:…

>
>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they
>will go the way of vinyl records?
>

There was some talk a couple years back about how retailers, should they invest in new printing technology, and printing with laser become fast enough, might simply print books from the internet, and sell them to buyers, thus obviating the need to keep any inventory on hand other than perhaps floor samples, and lots of paper … they could, for example, print large print books as needed, or regular editions, of any text; and books would never be “out of print,” but always freshly available.

Quality of paper, bindings and illustrations might be a negotiable subject, or subject to a sliding scale of price. You might order, for example, leather bound parchment quality paper editions of any book, perhaps the Heinlein corpus, you wish to pay for.

Trying this from Google, so forgive the short signature.


David, http://www.heinleinsociety.org/

Jane Davittwrote in message news:…

>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they
>will go the way of vinyl records?

Isaac Asimov wrote a good essay explaining the advantages of traditional books. Require no power, can be opened instantly to any page, etc.


Colin Campbell

Dr. Rufo wrote:

>
> The more of the senses we can engage in our exploration of the world(s)
>around us the more impressions (read “input” if you must) we will have to
>collate and co-relate. The “richer and more dense” will be the experience.
>The more nuances the better, easier to remember and to savor in fullness.
>

Yes; I don’t know who wrote that dialogue ( though I could find out who the main writer was for the episode, it’s usually a team effort I think so no way of pinning it down) but I’m behind them 100%.

If you go to the Amazon link for the Buffy DVD (season 1), it has a huge list of quotations from the series (go through the sidebar on the left, quotes and trivia section. oh, after clicking on the bit that says “more technical info for this edition on the main page). Some are very funny, some quite Notebook like in feel. And of course, as with any Amazon purchase, get to their site via the link on the Heinlein Society web page in my sig:-))

It’s a very under rated show with a fiercely loyal fan base (I should know; been watching it since series two or whenever we moved to Canada, as it wasn’t on in the UK back then).

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group Chat.”

SAcademy has entered the room.

SAcademy: Well, we both got there.

Paradis402: Hi Ginny!

SAcademy: Hi, Denis.

Paradis402: Yes, I’ll have to make this print larger later.

SAcademy: Want to start a log?

SAcademy: Go there now and do it.

Paradis402: I just save it at the end as HTML. That log doesn’t always work for me.

SAcademy: You have to close it to get it. I always forget to do that.

Paradis402: I find it easier to File and Save as.

SAcademy: Now, if you want to get back to your buddy list, just click on the AOL signature at the bottom.

Paradis402: I have it on screen now.

SAcademy: I am trying to see what is so new that they were so excited about.

Paradis402: Maybe they all forgot to show up.

OscagneTX has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

Paradis402: Right. I see nothing new. Hi Oscagne

SAcademy: Good evening.

SAcademy: Is that really a Texas town?

OscagneTX: “Howdy”? Not that I’ve heard, but Texas is a big place. I wouldn’t doubt it.

SAcademy: No, I mean the name. Your screen name.

OscagneTX: Oh, no. “Oscagne” is a character in David Eddings’ Tamuli series.

ddavitt has entered the room.

SAcademy: Evening, Jane.

OscagneTX: There was already an AOL Oscagne so I had to add TX.

Paradis402: Hi Jane!

ddavitt: Hi there!

OscagneTX: howdy, Jane.

SAcademy: I see that they still have you as ddavitt.

ddavitt: You’re all early

ddavitt: Yes, I kept that here to save confusion

SAcademy: Yes, we are. I am going to leave early, too.

ddavitt: Tired?

Paradis402: Well we travelled via IO through an eruption.

ddavitt: I’m exhausted

SAcademy: The kids?

ddavitt: But I refuse to go to bed at the same time as Eleanor:-)

ddavitt: Yes; I was child minding today; 3 children

SAcademy: Have you seen the moving smileys?

ddavitt: Very tiring and Lauren is up every hour in the night.

ddavitt: No; how do they work?

OscagneTX: My eyes are crossing. I parsed that as “child mining”. As though you needed to scare up more kids…

SAcademy: I don’t know how they work, but I downloaded them–but can’t get them going.

ddavitt: Heh.

SAcademy: I believe we have more space to write.

ddavitt: Well I think my mum has done them now you mention it

Paradis402: Maybe one of the experts will send us one here so we can see em.

ddavitt: I will ask her but she isn’t on AOL so it may be different

ddavitt: Not such a limit on words? That would be nice

ddavitt: I need a DVD expert; anyone?

SAcademy: I can’t figure out how to get them where I can use them.

ddavitt: Mum put hers at the end of an email; a line of dancing smiley’s with lefs

Paradis402: I have a DVD on this computer. I regret it’s presence.

OscagneTX: Expert… no. Reasonably familiar, yes. What’s your problem?

ddavitt: I got a player at Christmas; seemed fine

OscagneTX: Oh… DVD player or DVD-ROM drive.

OscagneTX: ?

ddavitt: Then bought a dvd to play and can’t access the special features

ddavitt: You are supposed to press the ff with the line next to it to navigate thru scenes of photos and a script

ddavitt: Lots of other people can’t do it on this particular title

OscagneTX: Lots of DVD’s list DVD-ROM as a special feature… but you can’t access that bit on a regular player, you have to have it in your computer.

Paradis402: Mine is a DVD Rom drive. I think.

ddavitt: No, not the DVD rom bit, I know I can’t do that

ddavitt: This is just the normal extras you get

OscagneTX: Ok… my dvd remote has the ff and rw buttons and all that… but it also has arrow keys like on a keyboard.

ddavitt: I can get the voice over on the episodes

OscagneTX: I use the arrow keys to navigate those menus.

ddavitt: Oh well…I tried with remote and the DVD player itself and keep getting the sign that means no, you can’t do it

ddavitt: It’s the Buffy season 1 DVD

ddavitt: Never mind.

OscagneTX: It may be a glitch on the DVD. Cheaply made disks do that sometimes. *shrug*

ddavitt: If we are all tired, maybe we should start?

SAcademy: What is Buffy season?

OscagneTX: “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” tv show.

ddavitt: Sorry, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season one

ddavitt: It’s my favourite show. Been watching it since 97

ddavitt: Very under rated

ddavitt: And a lot of Heinlein fans on the Buffy newsgroups

ddavitt: Which is nice

OscagneTX: There are a lot of Buffy fans on the Callahans group, too.

SAcademy: I can’t get to those=–thanks to AOL

ddavitt: Really? Cool.

ddavitt: They are just alt groups Ginny, oh do you mean the sff groups?

ddavitt: That’s a shame :-(

ddavitt: I know Dave Silver does but he has to do something tricky

OscagneTX: google, maybe?

ddavitt: He runs something over the top of AOL

SAcademy: As Tawn says, Aol babysits us.

ddavitt: But sometimes you feel you’re old enough not to need a sitter?

OscagneTX: Does AOL really offer so much that it compensates for all of the drawbacks? I’ve never heard anything really positive about it.

SAcademy: All the time, Jane.

ddavitt: I tried it, didn’t like it, still getting the free CD’s every few months

ddavitt: Why don’t you switch Ginny? Go cable maybe?

OscagneTX: coasters. or frisbees. sometimes skeet targets. %^)

Paradis402: Oh we’re all going to Hell for that one. Knocking AOL.:-!

ddavitt: That’s them; can they be burned? Not that I can do this on my old computer

ddavitt: Will the chatroom be locked next time we use it? :-)

SAcademy: I can’t go to cable–we get our cable paid for by the Fleet Landing people

OscagneTX: No, you have to have a CD-RW disk for that. Unless you mean “Set on fire and destroyed”.

ddavitt: Ha ha. Yes, I meant used for something profitable; should have guessed it was no.

SAcademy: Under the heading of keeping the old folks entertained.

OscagneTX: Mrs. H. We have a local dial-up that connects us for about $10/month. Surely there’s a place like that where you are?

ddavitt: I won’t say anything to that one!

SAcademy: I’m in Florida.

ddavitt: Well, looks as if this might be it…do we want to begin?

Paradis402: Sure

ddavitt: The topic is the evolution of presentation…which sounds more complex than I meant it to

ddavitt: I was thinking of how books in paper form are the tip of the iceberg

ddavitt: What H books are best suited for new media like books on tape?

ddavitt: Will we all be reading them on a screen in a few decades? That sort of thing

OscagneTX: I read a lot of ebooks. Baen has a free library download site. Its very convenient because I have a lot of time to read at work.

OscagneTX: I had thought to offer to convert some Heinlein books to e-format but didn’t want to bug Mrs. H anymore that I’m sure she’s already bugged.

ddavitt: I think some of the books are almost meant to be read out loud and others not so much.

ddavitt: Could be they were written with radio shows in mind?

OscagneTX: short stories, yes.

Paradis402: Are eBooks like softbooks?

ddavitt: I can’t read much on a computer screen

OscagneTX: And I think the juvies would be very good for radio.

OscagneTX: ebooks can be read off the computer, I read them on my palm pilot.

ddavitt: What about TEFL which is almost all dialogue in a way?

ddavitt: But something like IWFNE…I don’t know, I think some are best read in your head so to speak.

OscagneTX: That’s one of the things I like about TEFL. It’d be very difficult because of it’s length though. It would either be VERY long or heavily edited.

ddavitt: Which would spoil it..

ddavitt: Books on tape are either very good or very bad depending on if they match your imaginings

OscagneTX: You might be able to make a case for make a radio show out of the vignettes of TEFL, though. They are short enough, and stories of their own.

ddavitt: I heard one of the Winnie the Pooh stories and hated Piglet’s voice

Paradis402: Are the authors compensated for eBook use?

ddavitt: Getting the sound effects is nice; be good to hear Rhysling’s songs

OscagneTX: IWFNE had a lot of mind-talk dialogue, that would be good for radio, but terrible for little or big screen.

ddavitt: Yes, break it up into a series of stories perhaps.

ddavitt: Yes; another method of presentation that’s becoming common. One could say Harry Potter was written to be filmed, especially with the current excellence of SFX

ddavitt: Heinlein books no longer contain anything that can’t be filmed; if they did ST again they could fake the powered suits.

OscagneTX: CGI is opening a lot of possiblities for film. LOTR would have been ruined if it had been done live-action ten years ago.

ddavitt: Yes; that was a really great film. I first read it when I was 13 and have seen a few versions that were dire

OscagneTX: I mentioned on the ng, I wish I wish I wish Ridley Scott had done ST.

SAcademy: Jane, our Army did make those powered suits.

ddavitt: But how much was fake? oodles I bet

ddavitt: I remeber the Olympics one Ginny

Paradis402: I saw that Ginny. Pretty neat.!

ddavitt: But nowadays they wouldn’t need to use a real one I bet

OscagneTX: I haven’t seen that. I’ve seen the stories about how they’re trying to manufacture powered armor. That was mentioned in the ng.

SAcademy: No, actually when the Olympics began in LA a few years ago, they started it with an army man jumping into the stadioum

SAcademy: Bill won’t be here tonight, I expect. He had to do laundry because San Francisco calls him–his eye doctor.

ddavitt: I was thinking more of the aliens; Wormface, Sir Isaac, Lummox…all could be done so they looked real, not fake

ddavitt: Oh, fair enough Wonder where Dave Wright and AG are?

Paradis402: This suit was on the AOL page recently. Gave RAH credit. I think David Silver sent a link on Google.

ddavitt: I will save the log from where I came in.

SAcademy: I’m sorry No I don’t know.

ddavitt: But again, a film is far from the printed word. I worry that books might disappear.

SAcademy: I think they are safe!

ddavitt: Well, mine won’t..but if it gets to the point where I walk into a books tore and all I’m offered is tapes or CD’s, I’ll be..annoyed.

OscagneTX: I seriously doubt books will go away.

ddavitt: I hope so Ginny…but I never thought our vinyl albums would turn into unplayable museum artifacts

ddavitt: Tried buying a turntable steroe? Hen’s teeth

OscagneTX: There have been studies… people can’t retain what they read on a monitor nearly as well as on a printed page.

SAcademy: They might be in a different form Jane, but they won’t go away.

ddavitt: But I don’t want a different form

ddavitt: I like books.

OscagneTX: I like old musty dusty books. I just don’t have any.

ddavitt: I read fiction online and I skim so fast; that’s probably why it doesn’t stick as much

SAcademy: I just said “might” But books will always exist–what would schools do without them?

ddavitt: Little screen on every desk probably

OscagneTX: what an expensive desk.

ddavitt: Or home schools like that Asimov short story, “The Fun They Had”

ddavitt: We had that read out to us in school assembly once.

SAcademy: Haven’t read that.

OscagneTX: unless schools close. *shudder*

ddavitt: It’s a kid who learns about the old days when children went to school, played with each other..thinks how much fun it must have been. She is taught via a computer

SAcademy: S’matter don’t you like kids?

Paradis402: I still think there is serious risk to the authors in eBook formats. How will they get paid?

ddavitt: At home; no contact with a teacher or other students.

OscagneTX: Me? not particularly. But I don’t have any of my own. Too afraid I’d end up being my dad.

ddavitt: Sell the rights, get money every time it’s downlaoded?

SAcademy: There’s a lot of home schooling now.

ddavitt: I live for term time…

ddavitt: Seriously, I wouldn’t feel qualified.

SAcademy: Lots of the teachers are not!

ddavitt: And getting Eleanor to work with all the distractions at home would be impossible.

OscagneTX: I’d bet this computer I’m typing on that you’re more qualified than %60 of our local teachers, Jane.

ddavitt: She loves school; got 6 out of 6 on her spelling test today and her French is tres excellent :-)

pjscott100 has entered the room.

ddavitt: I taught her to read and do sums ( she’s 6) but I couldn’t teach her as well as she is being taught. Interaction is vital too.

SAcademy: She will probably have a better accent than most of us acquire.

ddavitt: Yes; she’s being taught by a French lady.

ddavitt: Hi ther

ddavitt: There

pjscott100: Sorry I’m late

SAcademy: So was I. In high school.

Paradis402: At 6? That’s great!

ddavitt: No problem

ddavitt: Don’t they do that in the US?

OscagneTX: 6 is first grade. just barely being taught to read in public schools.

SAcademy: Do what?

Paradis402: Hi PJ.

ddavitt: Here all grade 1’s do some French but we opted for French immersion; half of each day, the lessons are taught in french, math, science and French itself

OscagneTX: 5 is kindergarten. learning letters and numbers and how to “work and play well with others”.

ddavitt: Learn french or a second language

SAcademy: No, I didn’t take French until HS

pjscott100: Ditto (UK)

ddavitt: In the Uk it was 11 but may be earlier now. Eleanor is soaking it up

Paradis402: Are you in the UK now PJ?

SAcademy: Denis has a fine French accent.

pjscott100: It depended on the school. Private UK schools taught it earlier when I was there (70s)

OscagneTX: We got Spanish in junior high… (8th grade), but it was only for “gifted and talented” because the district saw foriegn lang as a high school subject.

ddavitt: A lot is taught via music too; she learned the numbers to 10 with a song about Violette which is still in my head

pjscott100: No longer in UK, spent 18 years in L.A. and last 3 in British Columbia

ddavitt: I’m in Ontario

Paradis402: Nice to have you join us.

pjscott100: David Silver told me about this at LosCon but I don’t see him here

ddavitt: We have drifted a bit but we’re discussing the way books are presented in many different ways now and how Heinlein’s books fit with the new formats

pjscott100: Thank you.

ddavitt: Hopefully he’ll pop by later.

ddavitt: I think some of his stories are made for audio for instance.

pjscott100: I have often felt that his stuff is completely optimized for books and does not translate well to other media.

ddavitt: In a way, all books should be capable of being read out loud

pjscott100: Writers should learn from him how their job is not to write a novelization of a screenplay that doesn’t yet exist.

ddavitt: But a complex one like say A Tom Clancy would suffer I think

OscagneTX: New formats… has anyone ever made a computer or video game with a Heinlein work?

ddavitt: I think there’s an ST one

pjscott100: So much stuff these days clearly reads like they’re anticipating the movie (Michael Crichton, Terry Brooks…)

OscagneTX: That would be tied to the movie, then, Jane?

ddavitt: probably

SAcademy: Yes, there have been several games.

OscagneTX: oh?

ddavitt: Yes, some books feel like ‘book of the film’ before there is a film

ddavitt: With an eye to the profits I suppose.

pjscott100: Some of H’s characters’ dialog looks great on paper but doesn’t sound right when read aloud, IMHO.

ddavitt: Yet I suppose books have been made into films from the very start of the film era?

ddavitt: Good source of plots and scripts

ddavitt: Maybe it’s not just a modern thing.

pjscott100: But that could be me… I noticed in e.g. Destination Moon that the characters spoke that way and the speech patterns have been more common in the 40s; noticed it in The Fountainhead also

SAcademy: I am fading fast Jane. Please excuse me if I leave.

SAcademy: Nite all.

OscagneTX: good night, Mrs. H.

ddavitt: Of course!

Paradis402: Bye Ginny.

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Tanks for coming

ddavitt: Thanks.

ddavitt: Darn, fingers getting tired

ddavitt: Has anyone ever heard a Heinlein book on tape btw?

ddavitt: I haven’t

ddavitt: Might rent one from the library if they have one

OscagneTX: nope. But I don’t use them.

Paradis402: Yes. Two or three.

ddavitt: Nor I

ddavitt: What were they like?

pjscott100: It would spoil it for me to have to follow it at someone else’s pace instead of mine

ddavitt: Yes; I read very fast. But I hear they’re great for long car journeys

Paradis402: The ones I have are very good. Job is one.

ddavitt: Who was Alex?

pjscott100: Oh, sometimes I’ll read a part very slowly because it’s so good I want to savor it

Paradis402: I’m trying to remember.

ddavitt: I always start a precious new book reading slowly to make it last…heh. Never works.

ddavitt: Do you think it’s best with a non famous name?

Paradis402: The man from uncle, I think. Forget his name.

ddavitt: I didn’t like Piglet because it was a female actress and i saw him as male

ddavitt: Oh…interesting choice.

OscagneTX: Robert something, isnt’ it?

pjscott100: vaughan

ddavitt: I can get to the end of a book and not know the names of all the characters..especially if they’re invented ones in a fnatasy book

Paradis402: There you go.

ddavitt: I should slow down.

Paradis402: He did all the chareacters. And very well too.

ddavitt: But I know if I like it I’ll read it again many times and I pick up details I’d missed then

ddavitt: All of them? Even margrethe?

Paradis402: Yes. Thanks for the name Oscagne.

OscagneTX: You know… I always skipped all the descriptive bits if they weren’t necessary to the plot. Sometimes I wind up going back… but I don’t have to do much skipping in Heinlein books.

ddavitt: The Winnie the Pooh one ( sorry to harp on it but it’s the only one I heard) had lots of voices.

ddavitt: I can skim a page in seconds..sometimes i go back and read it all if I think I missed something vital.

ddavitt: Like the ID of the murderer

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: I can’t understand people who take months to read a book…

pjscott100: there isn’t usually much in the way of descriptive bits in RAH

OscagneTX: usually i have to go back when I see something like “she turned to the blond boy” and realize I don’t know which one is blond.

pjscott100: fortunately

pjscott100: You can read an entire book and not know how old the main character is or what race they are

pjscott100: and you know, I don’t care

pjscott100: If it was important he’d have said so.

ddavitt: Sometimes it’s nice to have your own version, that’s just yours.

Paradis402: That’s the good part of it for me. I can make it up for myself.

ddavitt: Not be hampered by what the author said

pjscott100: I just tried to reread The Hobbit and it drove me crazy with all that stuff.

ddavitt: Which?

ddavitt: I love that book.

OscagneTX: I really like the race/nationality-jumping that Heinlein did.

pjscott100: Boring descriptions of scenery and people.

ddavitt: Not many…

OscagneTX: oh, yeah… Tolkien is famous for that….

OscagneTX: I don’t really care to which consistency Bilbo’s eggs were fried.

ddavitt: it was a quest, scenery is generic, marshes, forests, mountains

ddavitt: No, I have to disagree there.

ddavitt: But we won’t fall out over it:-)

pjscott100: RAH gets into what you want to know right away

ddavitt: I suppose you didn’t care what colour hoods the dwarves were wearing?

OscagneTX: it didn’t occur to me. Was that a plot point?

pjscott100: Look at Double Star; see how fast the action is going? What would it be like if he’d gone the usual route of telling you what all the bottles behind the bar were?

ddavitt: Sharon Green said she tried to copy Heinelin when she started writing

Paradis402: Exactly PJ. But I’m a rabid RAH fan.

ddavitt: Found out that she couldnt because without H’s skill, she was left with no descriptions and it felt flat

ddavitt: He could pull it off

pjscott100: I would be too, except I’d rather not equate affection with hydrophobia

ddavitt: Not many others could get away with never mentioning a hair colour

Paradis402: I stand corrected. :-)

OscagneTX: maybe that’s where I have my problem. I’ve done some short stories.. and they focus on dialogue bacause that’s the part I enjoy reading. I don’t like or enjoy writing unnecessary scenery. Maybe its not unnecessary.

ddavitt: I think it’s pointless to go overboard because it’s hard to convey in words the majestic view from the top of a mountain or such.

ddavitt: JKJ said something about that in 3 men and a boat

ddavitt: Or the sequel; a poet is going on about a wood

ddavitt: School kids being quizzed on it; one is asked to sum it up; he says, “it was the usual sort of a wood’

pjscott100: which brings me back to how RAH is so optimized for books, that translation to other media is problematic.

ddavitt: back to the topic!! That’s not allowed is it?

Paradis402: Exactly.

pjscott100: Take e.g. the cell scene in Gulf. Pretty hard to show that in a movie.

ddavitt: Or a tape

OscagneTX: yup. movie makers have to make up a lot of stuff to fill in the graphics… and usually screw it up.

pjscott100: Exactly

ddavitt: But what about say Glory Road?

pjscott100: They’re dealing cards and translating them into a code.

pjscott100: Ah, that one would do well.

ddavitt: That would do well as a film..until they tried to do the end

OscagneTX: a book on tape wouldn’t really have that problem… its just a verbaitim or abridged version of the book. A radio show is different. You have to figure out a way to verbalize visuals for that.

ddavitt: They would end it with him going home in triumph and want to miss off the disllusionment

pjscott100: Okay, talking about really different media… how about a RAH theme park? :-)

ddavitt: Interesting differnce there Oscagne. Never thought of that

ddavitt: ooh, you’ve been reading the new Spider Robinson!

pjscott100: No I haven’t, what’d he say?

ddavitt: The free Lunch?

ddavitt: It’s a theme park with several Heinlein areas

pjscott100: Hmm, Great Minds Think Alike

ddavitt: Including Lummox stampeding down Bon Marche evry day

OscagneTX: new Spider? is it out already?

pjscott100: Bet he will collect the royalties though

ddavitt: I read it from the library a few months back

OscagneTX: oh… I’ll have to look it up.

ddavitt: I enjoyed it.

OscagneTX: You get to Amazon through the H. Society website these days?

ddavitt: It’s a nice theme park

pjscott100: But wouldn’t it be great if you could go talk with Heinlein characters, people who were trained so well that they would react just that way?

ddavitt: Yes you can

Paradis402: Yes!

ddavitt: And if you buy that way, we get dosh:-)

ddavitt: not just on books either…

ddavitt: It would be wonderful…I have nightmares about Disneyworld but a Heinlein one would be fun

OscagneTX: eiw… how about a Disney version of Heinlein-world? that’s nightmare-time.

ddavitt: eek, yes.

ddavitt: They wanted to do Star Beast didn’t they?

pjscott100: And the best part is, so much stuff fits into the same Universe (Future History) that it’d all be integrated

ddavitt: I think the option has lapsed.

OscagneTX: giggle…could you imagine the Disney version of Worm-Face. Probably have Danny Devito’s voice.

ddavitt: I don’t want Eleanor buying a Happy Meal with a Lummox in it

Paradis402: :-*

OscagneTX: But… Jane… it’d have super-duper-fold-out-able transforming wing-stubs.

pjscott100: Of course, there are the Church of All Worlds people… arguably translating Heinlein into other media…

Paradis402: That was Danny as worm face.

ddavitt: Actually, many of the juveniles would get edited for PC…which is highly ironic as they already went thru the Alice scrutiny

ddavitt: Too many kids with guns…and Clark kills too many people for an 11 year old.

pjscott100: The irony of which is that they accepted language at a reading level which would be too high for kids today

ddavitt: Possibly.

pjscott100: And can’t have books implying that kids should know how to do trig… would make too many of today’s kids feel inadequate.

ddavitt: I started with HSS-WT and that places heavy emphasis on value of good schooling

ddavitt: And of bad schools and students who make the effort themselves

ddavitt: Too subversive maybe…

OscagneTX: How would you convert those analog computers into their digital counterparts. The computing power he described in lots of those stories would fit cumulatively into my Palm Pilot.

pjscott100: Exactly… it among others motivated me to exceed the education I was being given

ddavitt: Wouldn’t matter. You could leave it alone as an alternate universe or just tweak it a bit

pjscott100: Not everything has to be preserved. His stories don’t hinge on the size of the hardware.

ddavitt: Starman Jones couldn’t be tweaked of course

ddavitt: But HSS would be OK.

ddavitt: We still don’t have ships that go at more than light speed

ddavitt: And the space suit is similar to today’s model

OscagneTX: more’s the pity.

pjscott100: Don’t even have a space program like we did 30 years ago

pjscott100: In some respects.

Paradis402: That is sad.

ddavitt: Yes but we are still looking to mars

pjscott100: If we’d kept going at 1969 rate we’d have condos there by now.

ddavitt: When we get there we can do such a lot using remotes

ddavitt: We have progressed well in areas that will be of huge value to making the space program more efficient

Paradis402: I’m still searching for the Heinlein crater on Mars on the net.

pjscott100: What do you want, a picture? Coordinates?

Paradis402: Yes.

ddavitt: Is it on Jim G’s site?

ddavitt: Or are they the lunar ones?

Paradis402: Is it? I’ll have to look.

ddavitt: definitely something there along those lines

Paradis402: All I have is a copy of the GDS picture Yoji sent to Ginny when it was named.

ddavitt: All?!

ddavitt: More than some of us:-)

Paradis402: Just one picture with coordinates.

ddavitt: One day, maybe we can have a reunion in that crater.

OscagneTX: I found the picture in my TMIAHM.

Paradis402: That would be nice.

Paradis402: Really? Oxcagne.

OscagneTX: martian latitude -64.6 and longitude 243.8 in Quad MC28SE on Map I-1453

ddavitt: Neat.

Paradis402: Right. The one where I see what looks like Taffy. One of Robert’s favourite cats.

ddavitt: I have a Norton’s Star Atlas..I forget if it has large scale map of mars. I’ll have to check

OscagneTX: That’s a US Geological Survey map.

Paradis402: Right.

pjscott100: I should be able to find this… I work for JPL. Trying now…

ddavitt: Mars belongs to the US?:-P

Paradis402: To Robert. Thre’s a difference.

ddavitt: Now that’s one place where ebooks would come in handy; a space ship

OscagneTX: you bet.

ddavitt: Real books are ( as I know too well) very heavy in bulk

ddavitt: I’ll allow space missions to leave behind the first editions

OscagneTX: I said before… I download books all the time from Baen. And even the ones that aren’t free are about $10 for 6 or 7 books. Amazing what price you can get when you don’t have to pay for paper.

pjscott100: distracted by parrot roaming on floor and cats crying…

ddavitt: And once we’re colonising, very nice to have new books emailed out to us:-)

OscagneTX: you parrot attacked your cats and made them cry?

Paradis402: That’s an interesting picture PJ.

ddavitt: brb; lauren squawking since we’re talking parrots

pjscott100: cat is looking for door into summer

pjscott100: was raised in LA and not used to BC winters

OscagneTX: There’s a point… lots of scifi authors supposed that luxury items in the belt and elsewhere would be books or other entertainment… ala The Rolling Stones doing a radio show in the asteroids.

OscagneTX: But with digital media… fiction and movies can be uploaded to explorers… no loss of delta v.

ddavitt: back

OscagneTX: front

OscagneTX: should be…

OscagneTX: FRONT!

ddavitt: Clever clogs:-)

ddavitt: But not fair to expect H to predict it.

Paradis402: Nice riposte Oscagne!

OscagneTX: true.

ddavitt: hang on; more crying

OscagneTX: er… true not fair, not true good ripost…. %^)

Paradis402: I’m thinking in French. Not a good idea here.

Paradis402: But you do a good Jubal imitation.

ddavitt: OK; sent David up with milk and medication; lots of teeth popping thru

pjscott100: getting lousy throughput to JPL… have browsable Mars map up.. Where is it?

pjscott100: oh wait, I see latlong above

OscagneTX: martian latitude -64.6 and longitude 243.8 in Quad MC28SE on Map I-1453

Paradis402: South pole? Near Kepler?

OscagneTX: The cite doesn’t say…

pjscott100: hmm, I can zoom in there but map is not annotated…

OscagneTX: Aparently its near enought the southern polar cap to be covered in solid CO2 in the winter.

OscagneTX: they think there is water under it, so its “attractive to human settlement”.

OscagneTX: water ice, that is.

Paradis402: It would be nice if they posted it on APOD.

pjscott100: longitude 243.8 is same as -116.2 I guess…

OscagneTX: dunno. I’m not familiar with areology.

ddavitt: Heinlein said there’d be ice on Mars…

Paradis402: If you can get it on APOD, I’ll send you a picture of Taffy. :-)

OscagneTX: what’s APOD?

OscagneTX: I can scan and send this picture. the quality won’t be terrific, though.

Paradis402: Astrononmical picture of the day. JPL?

ddavitt: Incidentally, he could do descriptions when he needed; Rhysling’s one liners about the planets were lovely..and the one about the Singing Waters

OscagneTX: ah… I haven’t freqently looked at that.

ddavitt: I am going to have to disappear now; sorry

ddavitt: Can anyone log this for Dave Wright?

ddavitt: I can do it up to now and email it to him

Paradis402: OK Jane. Bye and take care. I can send him my copy too.

pjscott100: Does this look like the picture: Click Here

ddavitt: Oh well, you were here before me Denis so that would do fine; thanks!

OscagneTX: g’night, Jane.

pjscott100: Good night!

ddavitt: Night all, thanks for coming.

ddavitt has left the room.

OscagneTX: that’s not it. secondary craters don’t match.

Paradis402: Thanks PJ. I ‘ve saved it for later. It worked. It’s not it?

OscagneTX: not it.

OscagneTX: sorry.

OscagneTX: again… I can scan and email, dcc, or ftp. If you want it. Its b/w .

pjscott100: We just need to find the right place on this map… everything’s there

Paradis402: See what I meant about the net? Maybe I’m just not good a surfing.

pjscott100: [editor note: link failed to carry across to edited version]

pjscott100: oops, second

pjscott100: try this: Click Here

pjscott100: er… that’s the same one, never mind

pjscott100: yet the coordinates match

pjscott100: is mars like the moon, north and south inverted?

OscagneTX: I found it, but the url is too long to paste in one… so hold one.

OscagneTX: on.

OscagneTX: Click Here

OscagneTX: that’s all.

Paradis402: Nice picture. I will have to study it more. Thanks.

OscagneTX: no problem. looking was fun.

Paradis402: Let me know if you want it as a JPEG attachment. I’m not good at sending pics on other than AOL.

pjscott100: aha! It is the same as the one I pasted, just that there’s some distortion making it hard to recognize

OscagneTX: jpeg is good.

Paradis402: OK. You too PJ.

pjscott100: It’s Peter… thanks, and good night

OscagneTX: is it? um… the little craters at 10:00 and 4:30 didn’t match.

OscagneTX: good night.

Paradis402: Good night to both you astronomers.

pjscott100: it’s dead center and has a line running through it… top half is blurred

OscagneTX: have a good night, both… %^)

OscagneTX: ahh.

OscagneTX has left the room.

Paradis402: Log closed and saved for David,

pjscott100 has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 09-29-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Heinlein and Racism

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 09-29-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Heinlein and Racism

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Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Yo, Dave. I’m going to be afk watching UCLA – Oregon until just before start ….

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hello, all!

AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi … how’s it going?

DavidWrightSr: Hi David, Kultsi

KultsiKN: Still hanging on 😉

AGplusone: Well, does Finland have a contingent ready to go?

AGplusone: We could use those guys who defended the Mannerheim line … :-)

KultsiKN: I don’t really know… p’raps I should follow the news…

AGplusone: j/k :-)

AGplusone: My theory on “planning an invasion” … world wide total mobilization.

KultsiKN: We’ve been asked… to provide

AGplusone: … a few of their grandsons?

KultsiKN: ahhh… a stepping stone

AGplusone: Are there/have there been any incidents in Finland of terrorism?

KultsiKN: Well, at work we have a mosque at the 4th floor, and some guys were throwing stones to their…

KultsiKN: windows. Hit ours instead.

KultsiKN: Seriously, no.

AGplusone: that’s not good. I’m going to start off the chart with an examination of Between Planets … bigotry in wartime … but let’s wait. Have you read it?

KultsiKN: Way back when. Can’t really say I remember.

AGplusone: I’ll remind you … there are some other direct points in other books. Sixth Column, some others.

AGplusone: [I’m all caught up right now in watching UCLA play Oregon for eight more minutes.]

KultsiKN: ‘Bigotry’ is a word not really in my working vocabulary… gimme a rundown, pls.

AGplusone: prejudice, usually on account of race, color, creed

AGplusone: creed = religion

AGplusone: nationality

KultsiKN: Got it.

KultsiKN: About creed: found Credo in Latin on a Web page.

AGplusone: Yes.

KultsiKN: Got most of it, by cognates.

AGplusone: English is good that way … problem is: you have to know six or seven other languages

KultsiKN: And I ain’t got one of the Romance ‘uns.

AGplusone: English is like Heinlein: file off the serial numbers and steal

AGplusone: Latin is good.

AGplusone: Learned more about English taking Latin than any English course I ever took.

ddavitt has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hi, Jane!

ddavitt: Hello all

AGplusone: Hi, Jane :-)

AGplusone: two minutes to go …. afk

ddavitt: Jut popped in while I wait for david and dad to get back from fishing

ddavitt: OK

ddavitt: Mum is in charge of the children.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Bill

BPRAL22169: Hello, all.

KultsiKN: Jane, say Hi to Mum!

AGplusone: Afternoon, Bill …

KultsiKN: Hi Bill!

ddavitt: Will do Kultsi, thanks

ddavitt: She says hi back :-)

AGplusone: Tell Mum to have fun Jane … it’s neat being a grandparent.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin’ Ginny.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny

ddavitt: They have been here since Thursday and the kids are spolied already

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny

BPRAL22169: Hi.

SAcademy: Good evening all

ddavitt: Hi Ginny are you better?

SAcademy: Some better, had a nap again.

AGplusone: Not ‘spoiled’ simply raised by someone who *has* actual experience … is the way I plan to put it.

ddavitt: They aren’t really spoiling; just give them lots of attention and hugs which is lovely

AGplusone: We learned by making mistakes with you, is what I’m going to tell my daughter, should she ever make the mistake of letting me watch them …

ddavitt: That should reassure her

AGplusone: it should, considering her complaints …

ddavitt: She get those tickets then?

AGplusone: she gets to hear in return mail …

ddavitt: fingers crossed…

AGplusone: love the way the handle it … send us money orders or certified checks only …

AGplusone: they

AGplusone: Bill: mind if I start off?

BPRAL22169: Please do.

AGplusone: Suggest we start with Between Planets …

BPRAL22169: How does Between Planets relate to racism? I’m not clear on that.

BPRAL22169: Xenophilia/phobia, I could see…

ddavitt: Racism between earth and Venerians, both human and native

AGplusone: Don Harvey, a “citizen of the system,” is run out of his school and experiences other things, initially … what does that remind you of?

AGplusone: Today?

BPRAL22169: That’s not racism.

BPRAL22169: It’s demonization of The enemy.

AGplusone: The IBI interrogates him … etc, isn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Different subject entirely.

ddavitt: Well, it was the war of Independence all over again; would you say that was racist?

AGplusone: What is race, other than a decision that any alien is the “other”

ddavitt: Did the Englsih see Americans as inferior or vice versa? I wouldn’t say so exactly

AGplusone: Is the treatment of British subjects (Tories) by American colonists racism?

ddavitt: They were of common stock after all

BPRAL22169: English did see the Americans as barbarians.

ddavitt: No grounds for it

AGplusone: racism …

ddavitt: But they WERE Englsih!

ddavitt: I can’t spell that word…

AGplusone: No they weren’t!

BPRAL22169: They were “the dregs” — defined as such.

AGplusone: They decided they were no longer British …

ddavitt: At that time, hadn’t lots of the colonists been born in UK?

AGplusone: and some were Scots and Irish, and Scots-Irish, and Dutch, and etc.

BPRAL22169: The Revolution started as loyal subjects petitioning the crown for redress.

ddavitt: Then changed loyalties after reaching the New World?

AGplusone: Some did.

BPRAL22169: That was Franklin’s mission as Ambassador to St. James.

ddavitt: Well, hating them is hard to call racist.

AGplusone: By the time of James Otis they no longer thought of themselves as British …

ddavitt: Civil War wasn’t racist either for same reason

AGplusone: they were “Americun”

ddavitt: A war doesn’t have to include racist elements

AGplusone: Sure it was … Suthrun were different than Northern … ask anyone ….

ddavitt: Plenty else to fight over

ddavitt: No, you were all Americans.

AGplusone: Well, isn’t racism an element …

ddavitt: Au fond

BPRAL22169: The Declaration of Independence takes a rather different approach to the matter, David — one people deliberately separating themselves off from the parent stock.

ddavitt: The earth people saw the dragons as animals tho; couldn’t accept them as humans in a different shape

BPRAL22169: The revolutionaries first conceived of themselves as Englishmen affirming the traditional “rights of englishmen.”

AGplusone: An easier example, of course, is Frank Mitsui and others, in Sixth Column …

ddavitt: We should look at SIASL; what is a man?

ddavitt: Is a martian a man? Yes.

AGplusone: That was ‘lip-service’ to the slower Americans

BPRAL22169: No, it wasn’t.

AGplusone: ‘rights’ of Englishmen was a euphemism for the radicals who were fed up with monarchy …

BPRAL22169: Even at the height of the Revolutionary military activity, there were never more than about 1/3 of the population in agreement with the revolution.

BPRAL22169: That’s why so many Tories ultimately fled to Canada.

AGplusone: Agreed. They were propagandizing the 1/3 in the middle … see: you’re still English …

AGplusone: heheh

AGplusone: [ but we’re really Americuns … ]

BPRAL22169: Sorry, but that position is not historically defensible.

AGplusone: we disagree

BPRAL22169: we don’t get to vote or agree on historical fact.

AGplusone: In Harvey’s case, what was he?

AGplusone: What did he and his parents think he was?

ddavitt: Umm..not sure it’s possible to be objective about history Bill

BPRAL22169: A citizen of the system is what he wanted to be — but he self-selected to be a Venerian patriot.

ddavitt: Loved Nollaig’s phrase, ‘too much tonypandy on my mind’

AGplusone: only after the way he got treated … is my point.

ddavitt: But how is that racist?

AGplusone: First, they treat him as a traitor, per se … he’s not native-born!!!!

AGplusone: national racism

ddavitt: Lots of the books have the idea that colonists are rough and ready skivers; see red planet.

BPRAL22169: I would agree that racism/bigotry may be related to xenophobia in some fashion, but not the connection you seem to be trying to make.

ddavitt: But that is the view of the baddies or the unfit

AGplusone: second, he’s treated as a traitor because he has not ties to the country

AGplusone: third, he’s treated as a traitor because he’s leaving, he doesn’t immediately flock to the colors

AGplusone: he wants to be neutral

AGplusone: Next, he’s lumped in (washing dishes) with the ‘inimy’ and shot at and imprisoned …

AGplusone: so, how does he respond ….

AGplusone: which makes an interesting seque …

ddavitt: Day after Tomorrow/Sixth Column seems to present a conflict between cultures as an impassable gulf. I think in

BP a peaceful political resolution is inevitable.

AGplusone: how in the world did the Niesi find it in themselves to enlist in the numbers they did?

ddavitt: If it’s racism it’s on a much smaller scale

BPRAL22169: The Nisei were Ameicans.

BPRAL22169: Jane — which racism is on a smaller scale?

BPRAL22169: I’m losing track of the pronouns.

ddavitt: BP

ddavitt: Becasue it wasn’t the root of the war

AGplusone: Sure, and they were lumped in with the ‘inimy’ imprisoned, their property lost, and treated like hell ….

ddavitt: But it was in SC

BPRAL22169: Sixth Column was built on a conventional “Yellow Peril” paradigm.

AGplusone: and some didn’t enlist … some were deported after the war to Japan.

ddavitt: Could make it Islam and it would be bang up to date :-(

ddavitt: But in SC there was a deeply rooted racism on both sides

ddavitt: In BP I didn’t feel that

AGplusone: Well, wadda we got … some doctor locked up and interrogated ’cause his name is the same as two of the suicide pilots and he had tickets to LA about the same time …

BPRAL22169: There was a lot of “anti-Arab” sentiment in this country before this happened — the event is simply channeling emotions that were inchoate before.

ddavitt: Just a struggle for control of the planet because it had value

AGplusone: Yes, just as there was a lot of anti-yellow peril sentiment in the US before 1941. They could even buy property … in some states.

AGplusone: couldn’t

AGplusone: until late in the 1930s

ddavitt: I have read a Gene Stratton porter book set in California, 1920’s that made those feelings very plain

ddavitt: Scary to read it

AGplusone: Mitchener’s Hawaii has a little of that, too.

ddavitt: They really beleived they were in danger of invasion

BPRAL22169: Don’t have to tell a San Francisco boy…

ddavitt: and that the Japanese had insidious crafty plots afoot

AGplusone: Did they? Maybe so … but if Warren and Roosevelt can be criticized for something, it was that …

BPRAL22169: I think the internment is generally recognized as one of the most shameful events in American history.

AGplusone: Do you know they also locked up some selected German-Americans and Italian-Americans at the beginning of WW2 as well?

AGplusone: For example, a guy named John Basilone had a father, who in Italy, before he immigrated, was involved in fascist politics … he lost out to Mussolini’s branch, and they locked him up early on …

BPRAL22169: Things seem to have been less — institutionalized? — in WWI. There were anti-German riots and property damage,but it seems to have been on an individual basis.

AGplusone: the elder Basilone was let out shortly before August 1942 …

ddavitt: We see a return to the theme of anti racism in Job, when Alex is muttering about blackamoors

AGplusone: In TEFL Woody notes that they started calling saurkraut “liberty cabbage” and all the German bars became Swiss … and Johann Sebastian Schmidt becomes “Smith”

ddavitt: He is a counrty clubber; polite but not on a level with Luke

BPRAL22169: I had forgotten about that, Jane. alex really wasn’t an admirable character, was he?

ddavitt: Nicer to him in heaven tho

ddavitt: No…

AGplusone: You anticipated me, Jane … I was getting to Alex …

ddavitt: And yet, a saint. How ironic

ddavitt: Sorry:-)

BPRAL22169: I think it was intended to be ironic.

AGplusone: 😉

AGplusone: sauerkraut …

ddavitt: Do we think in heaven he still had those feelings deep down?

BPRAL22169: Jahweh’s criteria for sainthood had nothing to do with justice (comedy of)

ddavitt: Chronologically, for him, it wasn’t long after

AGplusone: you kin’ take the boy out of Missouri, but kin’ you take Missouri out of the boy?

ddavitt: But years had passed for Luke, Steve

ddavitt: Luke was lynched wasn’t he?

AGplusone: Sure was

ddavitt: But died singing hymns and went straight to heaven

ddavitt: And was still a waiter there…

AGplusone: Cook! actually Chef

ddavitt: Because endless holiday is dull

BPRAL22169: Didn’t Twain have a social hierarchy in “Capt. Stormfield”?

ddavitt: Sure, cook

ddavitt: Been a while since I read that.

ddavitt: Letters From The earth was very funny

AGplusone: Look at Moon Is A Harsh Mistress …

KultsiKN: Wasn’t Luke executed, legal & proper?

BPRAL22169: Me, too — I just have a vague recollection that JOB’s heaven was a conglomeration of Twain’s and Cabell’s “Heaven of Jurgen’s grandmother.”

ddavitt: I can check; brb

AGplusone: time of war, and how do they treat the groundhogs … ?

AGplusone: I think there was a trial, described as a legal lynching

AGplusone: the civil servants? the scientists?

BPRAL22169: I still say the demonization-of-the-enemy hysteria isn’t racism, per se, though it will use whatever racism is lying around to be tapped.

ddavitt: Oh yes, Kultsi, you’re right

ddavitt: He fought a Chicano

AGplusone: It’s racism? “Lobsterbacks” … they boy from Shropshire speaks the same English as the boy from Boston …

ddavitt: Who pulled a knife on him

ddavitt: Jury related to dead man; he was convicted

ddavitt: Prison chaplain helped him be born again so went to heaven

AGplusone: hierarchy in Texas (white—>mexican—>black)

BPRAL22169: More of Jahweh’s Justice

BPRAL22169: Ah, but Texas is Hell. I could have told you that years earlier.

AGplusone: Look at Brownsville in 1906 ….

KultsiKN: TEFL?

AGplusone: 9th Cav comes back to their usual garrison, and immediately the oilfield workers make sure they are put back in their places … no, real history, Kultsi

AGplusone: so there is a riot in which “two” white men get shot, and who knows how many 9th Cav troopers, so they immediately dishonorably discharge one full squadron of the 9th, without a trial

KultsiKN: There is something about the order of things in TEFL as well; when LL gets back..

AGplusone: And Teddy Roosevelt, whose butt they saved at San Juan, immediately approves it.

KultsiKN: to Urth of 19??

KultsiKN: The small town he landed at.

AGplusone: Yep, the sign that says “Don’t let the sun set on you here”

ddavitt: “We even have some Catherlicks”

AGplusone: What was that “Niggers, Kikes …. etc.” and the first thing the sheriff wants to know is “Is you a wobbly?”

AGplusone: Who’s the real hero in Sixth Column?

ddavitt: Frank….

AGplusone: Mitsui

ddavitt: He kills the mad Colonel

ddavitt: He’s a tragic hero

BPRAL22169: “Franklin Roosevelt Mitsui,” if you please.

ddavitt: But is he brave? Life has no value so is risking it all that much?

ddavitt: being provocative here

AGplusone: Frank wanted those side boys for his wife and children … they kept him from doing it

BPRAL22169: “The tree of liberty must from time to time be refreshed by the blood of patriots. That is its natural manure.”

ddavitt: But notice how even his friend, Jeff was it, had a moment of hating him because of his skin

AGplusone: because of the ‘greater good’ so he got to be a guinea pig to test …

ddavitt: Instictive recoil from an old friend

AGplusone: They nearly killed the intelligence officer who was passing because of plastic surgery and tatoos

ddavitt: Racism is hard to overcome

BPRAL22169: Sometimes your life is the only coin that will do to purchase what you love best.

AGplusone: How many divisions was he worth?

ddavitt: I wonder why Heinlein didn’t add that to the mix in IWFNE? Why he didn’t choose to make Eunice black and deal with the effects of that

ddavitt: Instead of making it deliberatley ambiguous

ddavitt: Maybe being female was enough of a loss of status….

AGplusone: His tactic … like Rod, like Juan, like Colin Campbell …

ddavitt:

BPRAL22169: I think he would probably have had to choose sides about an issue he wasn’t trying to deal with right then and there.

AGplusone: stealth tactic

ddavitt: But it is almost impossible to get a feeling about her race

DavidWrightSr: Ambiguity was his middle name. Done to make ‘us’ do the decisions.

AGplusone: Some with Rod

BPRAL22169: So what?

DavidWrightSr: ‘We’ fill in the blanks

ddavitt: Oh, yes, Rod is never going to be certain for many readers

ddavitt: So many interesting interprations…

AGplusone: and except for that biz about MacArthur Auditorium he’d have done it with Juan … I would have thought Juan a chicano otherwise …

ddavitt: Liked the one about Jimmy being a minority

BPRAL22169: For a rich white man to take the body of a young black woman in 1969 would have raised issues that would have prevented the other issues of the book from being heard.

ddavitt: Too cluttered?

AGplusone: I think so …

ddavitt: Maybe so

AGplusone: not cluttered … racist

BPRAL22169: Too cluttered. Ambiguity served his writerly purposes much better.

AGplusone: maybe that was yet another thing about Juan that turned off Dalgliesh and Scribners

BPRAL22169: The point is, the book is not racist, but it woul dhave been read as such.

ddavitt: Maybe heinlein didn’t feel he had enough data?

BPRAL22169: Enough data about what?

AGplusone: I note there are no more Jewish boys between Galileo and Troopers.

ddavitt: Enough insight into how black people feel in a world that treats them as inferior?

AGplusone: Instead we get white bread for how many juveniles ….?

AGplusone: Marlowes …

ddavitt: Hard to write about it and not get attacked from both sides

ddavitt: Touchy area

AGplusone: Stones

BPRAL22169: I don’t know about that — he certainly did in Friday — but it at the very least was not what he was talking about in IWFNE

AGplusone: Harveys

AGplusone: Stuarts

BPRAL22169: Kikus?

BPRAL22169: Greenbergs?

ddavitt: Friday wasn’t in trouble because she was black, not really.

AGplusone: Not a major juvenile character

ddavitt: It was the least of her problems..AP far more significant

AGplusone: Not one between Galileo and Troopers was anything except white bread, with the exception, maybe, of Rod

BPRAL22169: AP can be read as a symbol for the integration problems of any minority person.

AGplusone: Maybe that’s why Rod doesn’t marry Carolyn, and maybe why Carolyn don’t marry no buddy

ddavitt: Not really…she could ‘pass’ for human

AGplusone: Dalgliesh was read as not ready to accept it

BPRAL22169: You’re blowing this out of proportion, David — Jews make up 9-11% of the population; a Jewish boy was a heroe of 8.5% of the juveniles.

ddavitt: No one would know if she didn’t tell them. Not the same for a black person mostly

AGplusone: Yes, the first one, but “never again”

AGplusone: And actually, there were four heros in Galileo, so it’s one-forth of 9 …. not counting side-kicks

BPRAL22169: I still think you’re blowing this out of proportion; the fact that two major characters were black and another significant secondary character was Jewish seems to bust your thesis.

AGplusone: they’re just sidekicks

AGplusone: Carolyn and who?

BPRAL22169: The plot turns on Sergei Greenberg — he’s hardly a sidekick.

AGplusone: Who’s the other black in the juveniles, the adolescent who adolescents identify with?

ddavitt: But why wouldn’t they be white? Most of his readers were, Heinlein was….

BPRAL22169: I meant Rod and Kiku. Caroline can be interpreted as a secondary character.

AGplusone: my point, exactly

AGplusone: juveniles identify with juveniles, not Kiku

AGplusone: white market?

BPRAL22169: I still heard a seal bark.

AGplusone: white protagonists

ddavitt: At that time of non PC, there was no obligation on H to have ANY non white characters

ddavitt: That he had several was to his credit

AGplusone: exactly, the fact that he did proves he wasn’t bigoted

ddavitt: No one would have minded if there were none

ddavitt: No one would have thought twice about it then

AGplusone: out ahead of the curve

ddavitt: Laying track for others to use

AGplusone: by the way, can someone name a major juvenile author writing for the general market who writes non-white protagonists today>?

ddavitt: Like Gromit in the Wrong Trousers…:-)

AGplusone: Harry Potter is white, isn’t he?

ddavitt: I don’t read many; a few in harry Potter..

ddavitt: He is in love with a girl who has a Chinese name

AGplusone: Well, that’s an advance …

ddavitt: But his friends are all white; well, it’s et in the UK

BPRAL22169: I don’t know if there is such a thing as a “major” juvenile writer these days… the field is highly fragmented.

AGplusone: L’engle?

AGplusone: Don’t realy recall any of her characters not being white

ddavitt: In Wrinkle in Time isn’t boyfriend balck?

AGplusone: Is he? I missed that.

BPRAL22169: That was 40 years ago anyway.

ddavitt: Long time since I read them; called Cal I think

BPRAL22169: Wasn’t Cal her brother?

ddavitt: What’s the girl’s name? Meggie

BPRAL22169: Roughly contemporaneous with Heinlein’s juveniles. A little after.

ddavitt: Well, I am sure her boyfriend in later books is black

AGplusone: You point at a problem, Bill, there aren’t any major juvenile writers, except for the Potter ones.

AGplusone: Why is that? Marketing?

ddavitt: I loved those books when I was young; some quite scary

KultsiKN: Lost the thread?

BPRAL22169: Marketing mostly, I think.

AGplusone: I remember Felson … he was major, but all his characters were white

ddavitt: Duane, Wynne Jones are good but mostly white too

ddavitt: Duane has a Spanish lead I think in her So You want to be a Wizard/ books

BPRAL22169: Actually — George Lucas is the biggest-selling writer for juveniles today. And he writes particularly nasty stereotypes. Jar-Jar binks from the ‘hood.

ddavitt: He is picked on for it at school

ddavitt: He was a tiresome character

AGplusone: Yes.

ddavitt: Binks I mean

AGplusone: Stereotypes sell.

ddavitt: No one liked that alien

AGplusone: I guess

BPRAL22169: But the Republic is not multicultural, fer shure!

AGplusone: So we’re not even as far advanced as Heinlein …

ddavitt: That’s a surprise?g>

AGplusone: which maybe explains why Juan and Rod had to be stealth characters

BPRAL22169: Oh — but the Shylock character was even worse, and the pseudo-Mandarins. That movie was full of nasty stereotyping.

ddavitt: Not a patch on the original film

AGplusone: What were those little Shylock like runts in Star Trek—Next Generation

ddavitt: Ferengi?

AGplusone: Yes

BPRAL22169: Ferengi.

ddavitt: Quark is in Buffy, or was

ddavitt: Is that his name? The one from DS9

AGplusone: playing a what?

BPRAL22169: And Armin Shimmerman is on The Invisible Man next week.

ddavitt: Headmaster, gets head bitten off by 60 foot tall snake

AGplusone: Does Buffy have any good guy minorities?

ddavitt: Which was the mayor until he became a demon

BPRAL22169: Doeesn’t matter — we’ve got Blade!

ddavitt: Angel ha a black in the main characters

AGplusone: Of did 90291, even?

BPRAL22169: Blade was cool.

AGplusone: 90210

ddavitt: Buffy has Willow who is jewish..and gay…and a wiccan

EBATNM has entered the room.

AGplusone: jews pass these days

AGplusone: Hi, EBATNM … Andy?

ddavitt: But no black characters. It has been remarked on

ddavitt: Few good treatments of male/female gays tho

ddavitt: Hi Andy

EBATNM:

ddavitt: You’re you again!

AGplusone: Aaron Spelling “makes it so” (or else)

EBATNM: Like a bad penny, I return

EBATNM: But I’m in NM! Yeah!!!!

ddavitt: How did the trip go?

BPRAL22169: We’re sidetracked on racial stereotypes in film and tv — George Lucas’, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Congratulations on being HOME.

AGplusone: break ’til 10 after Bill …

BPRAL22169: If you must…

AGplusone: Actually, we’re searching for universal juveniles, in films since there aren’t any today, except Potter, in books

EBATNM: We drove straight thru & I’m exausted

BPRAL22169: But the ‘cello is YOURS~!

ddavitt: I have to go order tea; Chinese takeaway tonight as i doubt the fishermen will bring much back

ddavitt: brb

AGplusone: afk … making my tea, too

EBATNM: *sniff* I ain’t got no tea *snif*

BPRAL22169: Humiliate ’em — order fish fillets in black bean sauce!

EBATNM: Mu Shu Pork

EBATNM: What time did the chat start?

BPRAL22169: 2:00 PDT

BPRAL22169: We’re just an hour into it.

AGplusone: want a copy of the log, Andy?

AGplusone: I need an e mail addy

BPRAL22169: David started out by comparing the anti-Arab hysteria going on now to Don harvey’s treatment in Between Planets.

EBATNM: I can get it off the web site later

AGplusone: send it IM to me … you might have your zwein pfenning to add to something

BPRAL22169: Things went downhill from there.:-)

EBATNM: Buffy the Vampire Slayer as anti-Arab?

BPRAL22169: I think Buffy came up because we were trying to find minority heroes.

AGplusone: what is ‘two’ in German, Dave …. “downhill” arrgh!

BPRAL22169: zwei

EBATNM: zwei

AGplusone: okay

AGplusone: Wit’ dat, I let Bill ask the questions … from now out (and if you believe dat I gotta bridge deed I want to sell)

KultsiKN: For zwei Pfennig?

BPRAL22169: The chat seems to be handling itself without any help from me.

EBATNM: Pop culture is a closed book to me since I do not partake of duh mass media

BPRAL22169: The tentacles are slithering around the covers, Andy.

EBATNM: TV, films, radio, & etc

AGplusone: problem we were looking at was the lack of universal juveniles being sold

AGplusone: except Potter

BPRAL22169: RAH was ahead of the curve in including minority characters, even heroes.

BPRAL22169: And in fact he was somewhat more advanced in 1947 than the market has achieved yet.

EBATNM: What about Nancy Drew?

AGplusone: and the curve ain’t yet caught up to him … did the Drews ever finally incorporate minorities?

AGplusone: I stopped reading them when I was twelve, back in the stone age

EBATNM: Beats me, that’s girl stuff, ya know.

BPRAL22169: I do’nt think I ever read any Nancy Drew — I was a Hardy Boy generation, but I didn’t read them, either.

AGplusone: gril stuff is neat — know thy inimy!

Dehede011 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Din’ do me iny gud, but that was how I thought … hi, Ron

Dehede011: Howdy all

EBATNM: Well, there was Little Black Sambo, but I don’t think that is what we are looking for.

EBATNM: Howdy Ron

BPRAL22169: Not quite, know — though there is big black Sam Beaux in CAT…

Dehede011: The most puzzling example of racist talk for me is in TEFL

EBATNM:

AGplusone: no, we’re looking at juveniles … now that I think about it, Ogier the Dane in Pyle’s version of the Charlemagne romances was a minority

BPRAL22169: The attitudes LL encounters in 1917 Missouri?

Dehede011: Yes, LL language at his enlistment

Dehede011: I have to figure RAH was telling me something

Dehede011: But I can’t figure out what

BPRAL22169: It was a vintage period in American history, but it had its down sides.

EBATNM: Elaine’s parents are in their 90’s and I have to grit my teeth when we discuss “current events”. They don’t realize how racist they are.

Dehede011: Maybe he was only reminding us how bad it had been and how gratuitous

Dehede011: the whole thing was

EBATNM: It’s the off-hand and …. GMTA

DavidWrightSr: I am still not sure about Sam Beaux.

EBATNM: I think it was Heinlein making a point

Dehede011: Well the name is a play on words.

AGplusone: [incidentally, since it is football season, and since I’ve established a tradition: end of third quarter: UCLA 39- Oregon-0] ….

Dehede011: Northwestern in a thriller

EBATNM: The Duck’s are being shot down

SAcademy: Nite all. Have to head for bed again.

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: [forgive my intrustion … ]

Dehede011: Get well soon

DavidWrightSr: Nite Ginny s’pokoijnichi nochi

EBATNM: There is general agreement that Col. Campbell was of African descent isn’t there?

AGplusone: Did you think it possible that Sam Beaux was from Ponce’s world? Yes, I agree …

DavidWrightSr: No.

Dehede011: Yes, and his conversation with his fellow blackman seems authetic

Dehede011: Given what I hear in the factories

BPRAL22169: Perhaps the old black man — I’m assuming that’s what you meant — was nothing more or less than incidental detail, realistically portrayed for its verisimilitude.

AGplusone: Wendy Campbell … Jinx may have been black …

BPRAL22169: LL has to have someone to display his emotions to.

AGplusone: Loonie … the range of colors

AGplusone: Why don’t you agree, David?

DavidWrightSr: There is too much assumption in the matter of Colin and Sam. No where does it actually say that either is black, specifically

AGplusone: The black foot?

BPRAL22169: I think Colin says “I am as Black as you,” doesn’t he?

DavidWrightSr: didn’t say black foot

KultsiKN: No

DavidWrightSr: didn’t same black like you. said ‘

Dehede011: Hey guys I have just turned into a pumpkin. My son wants his machine back

DavidWrightSr: same color

AGplusone: darn dark if not black …

Dehede011 has left the room.

EBATNM: Campbell says that to Sam Beaux; who is described as a “sleek black panther”.

BPRAL22169: Yes, but “same color” isn’t an issue for a WASP

EBATNM: Sam, that is

DavidWrightSr: wearing black clothes, like a sleek black panther. didn’t say he was black

BPRAL22169: Thats it, Andy. I was trying to find the reference.

AGplusone: yes, but “Sambo” …

EBATNM: (And me without a copy of CWWTW)

ddavitt: Ok, fishers back, have to go. they caught 2 but brought none home. i was right to order in

DavidWrightSr: That’s what I meant by assumption

ddavitt: Enjoyed the chat, night all

BPRAL22169: And a sleek Black panther named Sambo isn’t other than Negritic.

AGplusone: even if Lil Black Sambo is Indian in the original?

EBATNM: Bye Jane

KultsiKN: Nite, Jane

AGplusone: nite Jane

ddavitt has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Yes — but the Brits refered to wogs as black.

AGplusone: hi, again, to Mum

KultsiKN: For once I beat Jane

AGplusone: So since the wogs are degraded Black Hats, and Sambo is determined an enemy, then he’s a black Black Hat too

AGplusone: ??

BPRAL22169: Now you’ve got me confused — aren’

BPRAL22169: t the Black Hats RAH?

AGplusone: Yes, but ….

AGplusone: he’s playing with our minds again.

AGplusone: Assumptions

AGplusone: And we’re making them

EBATNM: I thought Sam Beaux is described as a Sky Marshall which would mean he is ‘from’ SST

DavidWrightSr: That’s what I meant. Assumptions. Not necessarily valid

AGplusone: I never thought of that ….

BPRAL22169: Colin refers to him on 360 as “Little Black Sambo, the sky marshal.” and then says “Look, boy, I’m mighty glad that your skin color matches mine.” . . .

BPRAL22169: I would be called a racist for the way I despise you.” that’s not “implication” it’s clear even though indirect.

AGplusone: pretty much so

EBATNM: “boy” is also a term you really don’t want to use to a black man

BPRAL22169: We’re not making assumptions about that — just reading the indirect evidence “Boy” and match of skin color.

BPRAL22169: Yes. Colin is trying to insult Sam Beaux.

AGplusone: unless you want to insult him and start a war, which maybe Colin does.

KultsiKN: Judging by the language — if your quote is accurate, Bill — they were black/dark skinned

BPRAL22169: Beaux has just called him a coward.

AGplusone: And there’s the foot thing when Colin winds up with one of Laz’s spares

BPRAL22169: Yes. It’s one of things that is pellucidly clear to a native English-speaker, but perhaps not to an ESL speaker.

BPRAL22169: I think the black foot was referring to a different foot graft — the Jewish man in the wheelchair.

AGplusone: Then again, Colin meeting the Japanese ‘restaurant’ owner who served with

EBATNM: Heinlein playing with minds, again? Getting white americans to identify with a character whom turns-out to be black?

BPRAL22169: It’s a brown herring.

AGplusone: “Go For Broke” suggests a SST link there too.

KultsiKN: The feet were never referred to as black or white

AGplusone: wait ….

BPRAL22169: No — it looked like a brown sock.

DavidWrightSr: Colin said his the fourth foot didn’t match in ‘skin color, hairiness. etc’

DavidWrightSr: The brown socks were on the guy from luna.

BPRAL22169: Right — the rabbi.

KultsiKN: Yes

DavidWrightSr: Rabbi Ben Ezra

BPRAL22169: Colin’s simply doesn’t match.

EBATNM: and we know LL is white cuz he freckles

DavidWrightSr: Colin does say ‘Little Black Sambo’, but it still doesn’t prove that he was actually black

BPRAL22169: He’s a redhead.

BPRAL22169: What kind of proof are you looking for, David? He talks to him as if he were black.

BPRAL22169: he insults him by calling him “boy,”

KultsiKN: I see a redheaded black man almost weekly

BPRAL22169: he calls him “little Black Sambo”

DavidWrightSr: more misdirection.

BPRAL22169: No, it’s really very clear.

DavidWrightSr: Not to me

BPRAL22169: As clear as you possibly can get without coming right out and saying Colin Campbell is a Negro.

EBATNM: Heinlein was actually very chary of character description.

KultsiKN: That he was, it’s better to let the reader fill in the blanks

EBATNM: Did he actually describe the main characters, as to racial features, in his juveniles? I can’t think of any.

EBATNM: Some supporting characters, yes.

EBATNM: Kiku, et. al.

KultsiKN: Could it be to pacify Ms. “Dirty Minds”

Dalgliesh?

DavidWrightSr: Would a typical reader call someone named “Sam Beaux” dressed all in black, anything but ‘Little Sam Beaux’?

DavidWrightSr: I meant ‘Little Black Sambo’

KultsiKN: After all, he had to make a buck.

EBATNM: Ok – here’s a question: Could a SF juvenile been written and published in the 1950’s with an obvious black as the protagonist?

EBATNM: AND be a commerical success?

DavidWrightSr: I’m sure Dogleash would have rejected it.

EBATNM: Even now most literature written by black Americans is in the Black Studies section of your local bookstore

AGplusone: It would have been a surprise to find one. My dad was surprised about the Abrams boy in 53 … when he read it.

EBATNM: Ms. Dalgliesh would have committed a hysterical-ectomy on the spot.

DavidWrightSr: I was surprized by Caroline Mshiyeni(sp)

BPRAL22169: The “misdirection” theory has the same problems — what is the misdirection of implying Colin Campbell is black supposed to accomplish?

DavidWrightSr: Didn’t catch the Abrams thing

AGplusone: I’d been Heinlein-ized by then, so it wasn’t a surprise.

AGplusone: My dad made a point of it. My grandmother’s maiden name happens to be Abrams.

EBATNM: Bill: having a white readership actually identify with a black character

DavidWrightSr: To make us think

BPRAL22169: And it’s clear that Colin Campbell’s skin color “matches” Sam Beaux’s

DavidWrightSr: Agreed. But no where does it says his is black either

BPRAL22169: Why would he be a racist for despising a fellow Caucasoid or mongolian? it’s not so much misdirection as deliberately misreading the text.

AGplusone: It’s clear that his one leg doesn’t match Lazarus’s leg in “skin color, texure, hairiness, or any detail.”

DavidWrightSr: The whole notion rests on Sam Beaux being black and Colins’s skin matching, so he is black also

BPRAL22169: Yes — but that doesn’t say “black” or “white.” Your skin color and hairiness don’t match mine, either.

AGplusone: pg. 295, and we’re set up for off-color transplants in the story by Ezra’s two transplants, being from an African.

EBATNM: Trying to get white Americans to see our fellow countrymen as individuals and not The Other

BPRAL22169: Neither does Andy’s — though we are both Caucasoid

BPRAL22169: though we are all three Caucasoid.

AGplusone: Yes, right, but … it’s a bit closer and it wouldn’t be too remarked upon …

AGplusone: while in Cat it is!

BPRAL22169: Look, my point is, you can’t pick and choose which part of the text you will acknowledge and which part you won’t.

EBATNM: “Cat” is, of course a slang term for a Black Man, and Colin does, actually walk through walls when they download Mike

BPRAL22169: That’s an interesting point.

DavidWrightSr: What part of the text are we ignoring?

AGplusone: more of a jazz term, which, of course, is probably ‘black’

EBATNM: The parts that don’t fit into any of our theories, of course! :-)

AGplusone: i.e., ‘hepcat’

BPRAL22169: The inference that Sam Beaux was Negro is not an “assumption”; it is a conclusion legitimately derived from reading all the text together. Heinlein has carefully constructed his text to make any other conclusion insupportable. They

BPRAL22169: cannot be either Caucasoid or Mongoloid, because the text would not make “sense” for people of those common races to talk to each other in those ways.

DavidWrightSr: Circular reasoning. They make sense because they are black, they are black because nothing else makes sense

EBATNM: Good enough _literary_ reasoning

BPRAL22169: Not circular reasoning: they are black because no other conclusion explains all the references.

DavidWrightSr: I am going to have to disagree. I think that all the references rely on ‘assumptions’ that are not proven.

AGplusone: but not bulletproof … he could have escaped all that as he does with Juan, in one paragraph at the end

BPRAL22169: If you make contrary assumptions, then some of the references don’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense for, say, a Chinese man to say “I would be considered a racist if it were known I despise you” to another Chinese man.

BPRAL22169: There is only one conclusion that validates all the expressions he put togehter in that very brief exchange, and that is that both Sam Beaux and Colin Campbell are black.

AGplusone: He would have had to make both Chinese, of course

AGplusone: which is reaaaaallly strained

BPRAL22169: There is a loophole: Campbell might have had the complexion of a north African Muslim or a Dravidian, which can be as dark as a negro’s complexion.

AGplusone: or some Moros from indonesia … who are possibly either or both …

BPRAL22169: But, again, it would show an unusual degree of awareness of otherness to group oneself as a racist if a dark Caucasian is talking to a Negro.

KultsiKN: Anyway, Colin’s _father_ was LL.

BPRAL22169: Yes, there are other possibilities.

AGplusone: But what was Wendy and Jinx

DavidWrightSr: I’ll just have to agree to disagree. I think that it was a brilliant piece of misdirection to make a point about racism.

BPRAL22169: What point?

BPRAL22169: And why would he drag in an extraneous point?

EBATNM: The only way to settle this: Pistol’s at dawn. If I’m not there go ahead & start without me.

BPRAL22169: And your theory has to account for the fact that we cannot identify Sam Beaux among all those other literary members of the Circle.

BPRAL22169: (i.e., it must not depend on exterior knowledge about Sam Beaux, Sky Marshall)

DavidWrightSr: I don’t see any significance to that. He was an extraneous person used to make the point.

BPRAL22169: Again, what point?

AGplusone: Maybe Sam Beaux was a Filipino like Juan, one of the dark Moros from Zamboanga (Sam Bo = Sam bo) [that’s very probably too far out]

DavidWrightSr: That we make too many assumptions. He was saying ‘stop and think’

DavidWrightSr: Rather he let us make the assumptions to let us prove something to ourselves if we could.

AGplusone: What he definitely did do was make us require ‘proof’!

AGplusone: If it were a civil suit, I’d say proven by a preponderence of evidence, but not beyond a reasonable doubt ….

AGplusone: sufficient to convict of a crime.

DavidWrightSr: Circumstantial evidence. You are right, but not ‘proof’ to me.

AGplusone: IOW, defense counsel Wright, if this is criminal, you’ve established a remote, but possibly reasonable doubt …

AGplusone: or at least enough to hang a jury

AGplusone: one juror being sufficient

EBATNM: not in a civil case

EBATNM: majority rules

AGplusone: exactly

BPRAL22169: I’d like to explore this theory a bit, if you don’t mind.

AGplusone: ga/

EBATNM: fine

BPRAL22169: On the assumption that we are being arrested for our assumptions at this point — what assumption are we intended to be examining?

BPRAL22169: The master assumption of the book is that the Black Hats are the enemy. Jubal tells us there is no evidence for that.

DavidWrightSr: Simply to examine our ‘unconcious assumptions’ about race.

AGplusone: Heinlein delights in misdirection … ‘examine the facts’ he sez

BPRAL22169: Writers just don’t work that way — no successful commercial writer does. If that’s the purpose, it is worked into the theme, not dropped in and then abandoned 20 lines later.

AGplusone: He deliberately gives us the name “Sambo” which is enough for any bigot … which makes us (Dave and me) suspicious

DavidWrightSr: I may be going too much from my own ‘assumptions’. My first reaction was exactly the same as everyone else, but then I stopped and thought about it.

AGplusone: … waiting for the trap to fall somewhere down the World as Myth

BPRAL22169: That is a highly likely explanation, IMO

AGplusone: when it turns out they are both chinese …

DavidWrightSr: Hey. I just realized that this thing is not cutting our sentences short. Whoopee

BPRAL22169: CAT is very complicated — hypercomplicated, even.

BPRAL22169: I think they expanded the message box to 256K

DavidWrightSr: Who erase ‘Sambo’?

DavidWrightSr: erased

AGplusone: not I said the fly

KultsiKN: Prolly the same guys who shot him down.

DavidWrightSr: 256. About time. I managed about 20 sentences per chat that I had to redo before.

AGplusone: but it doesn’t give you message too long or complicated

BPRAL22169: Likeliest candidates are “scene changers” and authors.

BPRAL22169: But how did they even know about scene changers?

BPRAL22169: That stuff was just dropped in without any prior buildup, IIRC.

EBATNM: IIRC?

AGplusone: referring to which: the circumstantial evidence of skin color, or the scene changers?

BPRAL22169: “If I Recall Correctly” DavidW, have you done a timeline for the various circles in time in CAT?

BPRAL22169: I think we were talking about Sam Beaux’s erasure.

BPRAL22169: p. 361 of CAT

EBATNM: Sam is shot by seemingly everyone and it is his corpse that is erased (and all the miscellaneous gore)

KultsiKN: Yes, that one. Who were the operators who knew about Sam’s behaviour?

AGplusone: maybe that’s why we can’t find the literary antecedent … they went back and erased the book too

EBATNM: why is he erased after he is ‘rubbed-out’?

BPRAL22169: It’s described like a time paradox — Sam Beaux was temporally erased, so Colin was never shot.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry. I was afk. No, haven’t done a timeline. Too difficult with events changing history. I’m chicken

DavidWrightSr: Would like to do ‘bootstraps’. It

AGplusone: uh, any possibility that the original Number had a Sam Beaux in it?

DavidWrightSr: is fixed

BPRAL22169: Yes. That’s the curious thing, though — this kind of paradox doesn’t happen in the Everett-Wheeler many Worlds type of multiple timelines.

EBATNM: it’s no biggie being shot in the World As Myth because you can always be healed ASAP

BPRAL22169: So we have both multiple timelines and temporal paradoxes in a single timeline.

DavidWrightSr: Precisely.

EBATNM: To Tertius for the operation and Beluahland to re-cooperate

BPRAL22169: But that’s not what happened here — Beaux was shot, then erased, and the wound was simply gone.

AGplusone: If he was erased … you’d have to erase the book, since all the characters are from books.

KultsiKN: Not necessarily erased, simply led elsewhere, so the shooting never took place.

AGplusone: But there’s no book in our timeline.

EBATNM: my question is: Why do it that way? What the heck is going on in that sequence?

AGplusone: no author

EBATNM: But we know there IS an author: Robert Heinlein.

BPRAL22169: “… his body began to disappear. it didn’t fade out; it disappeared in swipes, through the middle, then across the face, as if someone had taken an eraser to a chalkboard. then he was gone completely; not even blood was left.

BPRAL22169: … Even his chair was gone. And the wound in my gut was gone.”

AGplusone: As if the artist erased Daffy Duck

DavidWrightSr: Heinlein did it, in the chamber, with an eraser.

BPRAL22169: The chair being gone is a telling detail — he didn’t exist so they didn’t set a chair for him. it’s a temporal paradox.

AGplusone: . . . just like the famous Daffy cartoon

BPRAL22169: In a book supposedly built on a completely different theory.

BPRAL22169: Conceptually we just went into a different quantum state with Schroedinger’s Cat.

DavidWrightSr: But, the same thing happens in NOTB, with the places where the four had lived

EBATNM: We are missing something very basic to the roots of CAT

AGplusone: Heinlein again as black hat, scene changers …. I brought you into this world, I can take you out …

BPRAL22169: How so?

BPRAL22169: That was to DavidW, but it goes equally to Andy.

AGplusone: Black Hat both times

EBATNM: the book just doesn’t hang together for me, as if I was reading the middle book of a trilogy

EBATNM: IF we say that CAT is a continuation of NOTB – and why not? – it’s in a further development of the same universe as MIAHM

BPRAL22169: I agree — it has that “expository” feel to it like the middle of a sequence.

AGplusone: The Black Hat rides again, which means, Jane and I have to go look for anagrams again

BPRAL22169: Immediately thereafter Jubal Harshaw reminds us the universe does not have to have a logical structure (but by implication a work of fiction does)

EBATNM: Colin Campbell – Colin Powell?

BPRAL22169: “Tell the truth, but tell it slant.”

BPRAL22169: Actually, they refer to him by this time as Richard Ames.

EBATNM: a work of fiction has to have _artistic_ structure. Logical structure is not needed.

EBATNM: and sometimes not wanted

EBATNM: True, O King

BPRAL22169: I was just reading forward in that discussion — Jubal says when Sterling offs the Galactic Overlord he will be erased. Who or what did Sam Beaux destroy? Colin Campbell. What does this mean? I don’t know — but it’s quite

BPRAL22169: pregnant.

AGplusone: We have a lot of funny names introduced in that section: Sadie Lipschitz, Aunts Tilly, Abby, etc.

AGplusone: Might this tie somehow to Walker Evans?

EBATNM: But he didn’t destroy Campbell – he only tried to & was prevented. Because they needed Campbell for the raid?

AGplusone: since they change that history too?

EBATNM: Sam Beaux as the Campbell cognate in the SST universe?

BPRAL22169: In HIS timeline he had destroyed his complement (Campbell), so he was erased. incidentally, note that hero/villain complement bit — it’s structure of Romance.

AGplusone: ????

AGplusone: in a SST alternative universe?

BPRAL22169: That’s the solution to that particular problem — something had changed in Sam Beaux’s timeline.

AGplusone: one in which Campbell makes Sky Marshal?

BPRAL22169: Possibly.

AGplusone: instead of eating Walker Evans

AGplusone: weird

EBATNM: Sam IS Campbell (or Campbell IS Sam, same difference) but on different axis’.

EBATNM: Heck, maybe everybody is merely a cognate of LL

AGplusone: And Colin Campbell, historically, was an alias for the general who wound up commanding the ‘thin red line’

DavidWrightSr: They are all Heinlein, didn’t you know. Panshin told us so. :-)

KultsiKN: Nope. Turning point characters, mutually exclusive.

EBATNM: MY BRAIN HURTS!

BPRAL22169: I think it’s supposed to, Andy.

AGplusone: he was related to the Campbells, but changed his name to Campbell only when he enlisted in the 43rd (?) foot

AGplusone: or whatever the Campbells’ number is

EBATNM: That would be him, then, on THIS timeline?

AGplusone: aka the Argylls

AGplusone: but his name wasn’t Ames

DavidWrightSr: test

DavidWrightSr: Sorry. I thought my system had frozen up.

BPRAL22169: I just noticed something else — LL’s leg is burned off him at the assault to rescue Mycroft Holmes.

AGplusone: LL’s? huh? where?

BPRAL22169: LL’s project causes his leg to be burned off. Ames does finally reject the leg as he has been trying to do.

EBATNM: Huh? I thought LL didn’t go on the raid

KultsiKN: His leg did

AGplusone: You mean burnt off Ames

BPRAL22169: p. 377 — no, Colin Campbell is carrying LL’s leg.

AGplusone: again!

EBATNM: that is …. disgusting

BPRAL22169: Yes. LL metaphorically cut off his own leg. Isn’t there something about gnawing off a limb to get out of a trap . . .

AGplusone: ah-hah! rejection figuratively like Johann’s brain …. d’oh!

AGplusone: another argument against Heinlein the incester

AGplusone:

BPRAL22169: I also catch resonances of the Odin at the Well of Wisdom story — have to give up a part to get wisdom.

BPRAL22169: We keep piling ’em up; sooner or later some sense will trickle out of the heap.

AGplusone: yeah … but I’m still going to look for anagrams

EBATNM: I don’t suppose anyone has found any notes in the archive relating to CAT?

BPRAL22169: And it’s also an Abraham-and-Isaac sacrifice of the son.

BPRAL22169: A few so far — I haven’t gotten up to that part.

AGplusone: the son Ismael this time

BPRAL22169: And on 378 he’s “Richard Campbell” so the names are combined and integrated.

AGplusone: And he’s carrying a battle recorder like Ted Bronson … oh, yuck!

AGplusone: Let me ask it: I don’t suppose anyone has found any notes in the archive relating to CAT?

BPRAL22169: OK on p. 381, Richard’s leg gets burned off, the wall collapses and he sees Sam Beaux — so the shot DID reach its mark, didn’t it?

KultsiKN: ??

DavidWrightSr: Saw Sam?

BPRAL22169: No — a couple of index cards that might relate to that, but his index cards are very hard to read.

DavidWrightSr: I can’t find that. My pages don’t quite match yours

BPRAL22169: I don’t think anybody else here has been to the archive.

BPRAL22169: pb?

AGplusone: Which means “who was Talliferro” … Sam Beaux?

AGplusone: It would have to be in the last two pages of the PB, Dave

AGplusone: because it’s the penultimate page in the harbound

BPRAL22169: It’s the page before the last page in mine: “When that wall opened, I think I saw what’s-his-name. Could the bloke who erased him write him back into the story? To clip us?”

BPRAL22169: Again, indirect.

AGplusone: Any book yu can think of about a Toliver, or a Talliferro, anyone?

EBATNM: not me

BPRAL22169: Maupin’s tales of the City has a Michael Toliver as a character.

DavidWrightSr: found it. I had totally missed that one.

AGplusone: Never read it

BPRAL22169: An Isaac Asimov murder mystery about Mercury has Taliafero as a character.

EBATNM: darn, stupid o’ me

EBATNM: (re: Tales)

AGplusone: Color of either match ?

BPRAL22169: Cifcle in time — Hazel killed Tolliver (because he was assigned to kill Richard) and started this whole thing off.

AGplusone: And who kills “what’s-his-name’ … ?

BPRAL22169: LL, Sterling, and Rufo, I think.

BPRAL22169: No. LL, Sterling, and “Commander Smith.”

AGplusone: “someone else was shooting” in p. 381

AGplusone: Hazel again?

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, everyone on the circle calls Beaux “Sambo.”

BPRAL22169: Though only Colin calls him “Little Black Sambo” at the conflict.

AGplusone: Then she says: sorry I had to kill him, he was assigned to kill you, on 382

EBATNM: How can Tolliver get close to Campbell in the first place if the ‘Supper Club’ is edited out of history?

BPRAL22169: Don’t see “someone else was shooting” — says 3 shots from three crack gunmen.

BPRAL22169: Different timeline?

AGplusone: And it’s not clear that Gwen-Hazel lives either. Both she and Pixel are still.’

BPRAL22169: She is also having the “white light” experience.

EBATNM: We don’t see how the raid ends because that would be authorial finality – and earlier we are told in 50% of realities they succeed and 50% where they fail

AGplusone: “Someone else was firing. On our side I think” about ten lines down

BPRAL22169: richard implies Pixel was killed.

EBATNM: Pixel is killed, in 50% of the futures BUT in a multi-timeline multiverse if they survive in _any_ timeline they have a ‘future’ in all the timelines.

AGplusone: I keep seeing little hints of Oscar in this last passage too

BPRAL22169: Commander Smith is Ted Smith from the Lensman timeline.

AGplusone: the crawling … the beam weapon …

AGplusone: Ted Smith = Ted Bronson

AGplusone: Ted Bronski from SST

BPRAL22169: No, he is introduced in RCAC is introduced to the Circle.

BPRAL22169: Different Smith.

BPRAL22169: He’s a Lensman.

AGplusone: maybe

BPRAL22169: No maybe. Definite.

AGplusone: I know who he is.

AGplusone: I’m just brainstorming

BPRAL22169: Besides, that would make two of LL, who is introduced as WWSmith.

EBATNM:

EBATNM: bye everyone

AGplusone: we quit in 15

EBATNM has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I’m not sure we have enough material to make an “ending.” We’ll just have to stop

AGplusone: if we can have Richard Campbell, we can have Ted Smith …

AGplusone: I don’t think we have, but, oh, I wish we had the next volume

BPRAL22169: Sorry — not a Lensman. his timeline is coded “DuQuesne.”

BPRAL22169: p. 354

AGplusone: maybe they’re all Woody, in the other alias we don’t know about in the beginning of TEFL

AGplusone: nuthin keeps Laz from riding on back to the beginning of the Lensmen … and becoming the red haired, green eyed Lensman

AGplusone: now that he’s got Jacob’s wonderful Burrough’s irrelevancy bus

AGplusone: weird theory but scary

BPRAL22169: That is another curiosity, though — Ted Smith was a lensman in Number of the Beast, but he’s in the Skylark universe here.

AGplusone: and notice how he scares Zebbie and Jacob out of the Lensmen universe so they can finally arrive in Dora

BPRAL22169: “Blackie” DuQuesne is the villain of the Skylark series. Dick Seaton is the hero.

BPRAL22169: Just imagine: RAH had to keep all these details straight.

KultsiKN: Idea: Pixel at the end of Cat is the Schroedinger’s cat — not dead, not alive

AGplusone: could be

AGplusone: prolly is

BPRAL22169: I think the quantum paradox is supposed to apply to the situation as a whole: the operation is both successful and unsuccessful and all possible interim states.

KultsiKN: With Pixel as the clue?

AGplusone: one of which is Laz is everyone except Campbell, including Hazel, since she’s redhaired greeneyed too

BPRAL22169: Possible — follow Pixel into the timeline he likes.

AGplusone: and he has a sex change his next trip to the clinic

AGplusone: they did give him a choice, din’t they in TEFL?

BPRAL22169: You realize this allows Heinlein to write off all the events of CAT as a bubble the Circle was studying to plan their operation.

BPRAL22169: Yes, they did.

BPRAL22169: So the “expository” feel of the book might be a reflection of its purpose in the whole World As Myth master plot.

AGplusone: just like the bubble test in IWFNE … ?

BPRAL22169: Well, maybe not “just like.”

AGplusone: If Eunice is black …

AGplusone: parallel to the Smith Campbell breeding

BPRAL22169: Hmmm.

BPRAL22169: As Andy said: My brain hurts!

AGplusone:

BPRAL22169: We’re mad, I tell you — mad!

BPRAL22169: Why don’t we wrap it up here?

AGplusone: lol … and Kultsi is our witness …. we’ll have to swear him to secrecy, or kill him

BPRAL22169: Gentles, thank you, one and all, for coming.

BPRAL22169: Or we could do both. Simultaneously or serially.

AGplusone: virtually speaking of course

DavidWrightSr: We could just nip back to the beginning and erase and re-do the whole thing 😀

BPRAL22169: Good idea. Let’s.

AGplusone: 😀

DavidWrightSr: Ducking

AGplusone: let’s not … we’ll just scare the children

KultsiKN: Where?

DavidWrightSr: Let’s call it a night. I’ve had fun.

AGplusone: Holloween’s coming anyway … so’ve I!

BPRAL22169: Something else just occurred to me: perhaps it doesn’t matter at all what race Campbell and beaux are; what’s impotant is that they are (a) the same and (b) different from everybody else in that room.

KultsiKN: Yes, this’s been fun.

AGplusone: Good night David …. exactly.

AGplusone: Kultsi, hope this wasn’t really too weird

BPRAL22169: Have fun, all.

KultsiKN: No, it wasn’t, David.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: and thank you for coming!!! always … hope you enjoy the dawn!

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 7:58 P.M. EDT

AGplusone: and Good Night for NBC ….

KultsiKN: It’s loooong ways off — it’s late fall, remember.

DavidWrightSr: Night All
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 12-01-2001 05:00 P.M. EST ‘Pretty Boys’ in Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 12-01-2001 05:00 P.M. EST

‘Pretty Boys’ in Heinlein

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Let’s think about why Heinlein would make his Heroes Pretty in the first place, for Saturday’s chat. During Thursday’s chat on this topic we started scratching around into the subject of prettiness and ugliness in both Heinlein’s characters and in “art,” itself. Denis happened to mention that in private conversation, Robert Heinlein frequently was likely to allude to the famous last lines to John Keats’ “Ode on a Grecian Urn,”

“Beauty is truth, truth beauty, — that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.”

I’m not a particular fan of the English Romantic poets; but Keats, so long as he stayed artistically as far as possible away from Shelley, is the one I find most tolerable to my taste. I can’t tell you why, I just do. In amelioration, I point out my now-sainted mother always said, “All your taste is your mouth, David.”

In Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land, there’s a discussion as was pointed out in this Thursday’s chat about Auguste Rodin’s artistry. One of Jubal’s favorite pieces is the sculpture “She who was once the Helmet-Maker’s Beautiful Wife” [aka “La Belle Heaulmière”] (1888). Another is “The Fallen Caryatid Carrying its Stone” (1881). Rodin intended to juxtapose these two figures–and others destined for the doors of the Museum of Decorative Arts (the ‘never-ending’ “Gates of Hell” as some have described it). Finally, there’s a discussion about a third figure: Hans Christian Andersen’s mermaid, and the statute in commemoration of her that sits in Københabn harbor.

Of these artistic figures, Jubal says [at pp. 395-99, 1991 ed.] to Ben Caxton:

[Concerning “La Belle Heaulmière”]: “Anyone can look at a pretty girl and see a
pretty girl. An artist can look at a pretty girl and see the old woman she will
become. A better artist can look at an old woman and see the pretty girl she
used to be. But a _ great _ artist–a master–and that is what Auguste Rodin
was–can look at an old woman, and portray her _ exactly _ as she is … and
force the viewer to see the pretty girl she used to be … and more than that,
he can make anyone with the sensitivity of an armadillo, or even you, see that
this lovely young girl is still alive, not old and ugly at all, but simply
prisoned inside her ruined body. He can make you feel the quiet, endless
tragedy that there never was a girl born who ever grew older than eighteen in
her heart … no matter what the merciless hours have done to her.”
[Concerning “Caryatid”]: “Call it a tour de force in empathy, Ben. I won’t
expect you to appreciate the shapes and masses which make that figure much more
than a ‘pretzel’ — but you can appreciate what Rodin was saying. … for
almost three thousand years or longer, architects have designed buildings with
columns shaped as female figures–it got to be such a habit that they did is as
casually as a small boy steps on ants. … it took Rodin to see that this was
work too heavy for a girl. But he didn’t say, ‘Look, you jerks, if you must
design that way, make it a brawny male figure.’ No, he _ showed _ it … and
generalized the symbol. Here is this poor little caryatid who has tried–and
failed, fallen under the load. She’s a good girl–look at her face. Serious,
unhappy at her failure, but not blaming anyone else, not even the gods … and
still trying to shoulder her load … this symbol is sexless. … Victory in
defeat….”

[And, finally, concerning “Mermaid”]:

“She sits by the harbor … she’s
everyone who ever has made a difficult choice … doesn’t regret her choice,
but must pay for it; every choice must be paid for … every step is on sharp
knives.”

Jubal goes on to say:

“_ art _ is the process of evoking pity and terror, which
is not abstract at all but very human. … more like intercourse, in which the
artist must seduce–render emotional–his audience, each time.”

All of this, of course, smacks of aesthetics, fairly esoteric stuff for an artist who said he wrote simply to put groceries on the table. “Art” and “aesthetics” are both words that begin with “a” on which opinions vary, and on which everyone who has something else that begins with an “a” has an equally worthy opinion – but only if you wish to follow the postmodernism school of thought, but consider these three principles above in shorthand. Call them embodiments of ‘beauty’ (inner beauty or ethics if you will), ‘strength of character’ (or responsibility, another sort of ethos), and ‘mature wisdom’ (or experience); and then ask yourself: how is this shown in our “pretty boys”? What about Oscar? The Great Lorenzo? Galahad? Waldo? And Valentine Michael Smith? from whose book these definitions of artistic principles come.

Can we say anything about them, and their ‘prettiness’ in light of these three artistic principles used to seduce us? Saturday’s chat begins at 5 PM, EST. See you there, I hope.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Didn’t expect to see anyone here yet.

DavidWrightSr: I always like to start up early so I can get a full log.

DavidWrightSr: But we’ve go over an hour before we start and I have to run to the store.

Paradis401 has entered the room.

Paradis401: Good afternoon, Ginny and David.

Paradis401 has left the room.

Paradis401 has entered the room.

SAcademy: Good afteernoon, gentlemen

Paradis401: Hi Ginny, You’re beautifully pink!

SAcademy: BTW, Denis, if you touch”esc” it will throw you offline.

Paradis401: I am scared of all those buttons ecept the regular keyboard.

SAcademy: Well, just don’t use them then. Or even try to, you might find out what they mean.

SAcademy: What was that remark aabout me being pink?

Paradis401: I won’t. This HP ketboard has a lot of buttons on it and none of them do what they should, So I never touch. Pink is your color on my screen right now,

SAcademy: Oh, you mean my screen name?

Paradis401: Yes.

SAcademy: Pink is not a color I would choose.

Paradis401: AOL does the choosing I guess, Actually it more of a hot pink.

SAcademy: We got started early on thursday, I wonder whether Kultsi and Sean will be here today?

Paradis401: I hope so. Sean is the Aussie?

SAcademy: Yes, he is.

Paradis401: I forget who the Welshman is.

SAcademy: Sometimes we have some Brits, too.

SAcademy: I don’t know who the Welshman is.

Paradis401: It makes you feel like the UN. On line, I mean.

SAcademy: Have to go and get a fresh glass of water

Paradis401: Good for you.

SAcademy: Well, it is nice to have other countries here.

SAcademy: BRB

Paradis401: I expect a good showing. It was fun on Thursday.

SAcademy: Back,

SAcademy: How many came?

Paradis401: About a dozen. Bill dropped in at the end but said he would be here today.

SAcademy: Maybe he’s been working on the Journal–it’s getting to time for another issue.

Paradis401: He said he was very busy.

SAcademy: Yes, he’s been working on the biog of Robert.

Paradis401: I’m delighted to hear it. He’s doing a very good job.

SAcademy: I help him with details–you’ve seen his short biog?

SAcademy: Jim Gifford has it posted.

Paradis401: That’s why I said he was doing a good job, based on his previous work. Now you’re both probably doing an excellent job!

SAcademy: I went over the short biog for accuracy.

SAcademy: Heard a door open.

Paradis401: I’ll bet you did. Nice part of it. It’s not about Bill – unlike other biographers. He’s not inflated with himself.

Paradis401: Door must be on you Buddy List.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Guys. I’m back.

Paradis401: Hi David.

SAcademy: Hello David.

SAcademy: Bill is coming.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Kultsi

Paradis401: Hi Kultsi.

SAcademy: Hello, Kultsi

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hi all!

SAcademy: Hello, Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill. Welcome

KultsiKN: Hello, Bill

Paradis401: Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Hello, Ginny, Denis, David, Kultsi

SAcademy: How are things in Helsinki, Kultsi?

BPRAL22169: The fruitcakes are done.

Paradis401: Yummy!

KultsiKN: Getting drier.

SAcademy: That’s nice. Now all you have to do is douse them in liquor.

BPRAL22169: Already started.

BPRAL22169: Dark rum — Pusser’s

SAcademy: Isn’t that too soon?

BPRAL22169: British navy rum

KultsiKN: The nice part is tasting the liqour…

Paradis401: You Navy types are all alike!

SAcademy: Is Kultsi Navy?

BPRAL22169: I started as soon as the individual ones were ready — I made 4 baby loafs and 4 individuals in brioche moulds.

KultsiKN: NO WAY — actually an army reject.

SAcademy: Anyone else watch the Army-Navy game?

Paradis401: No – just a touch of skating which was dreadful.

SAcademy: Poor Navy got hammered–I can’t remember the score, but it was bad.

SAcademy: Can’t do your school figures anymore, Denis?

Paradis401: Sure I can and I definitely will Next Year.

SAcademy: Oh, is it outdoor skating in Michigan?

SAcademy: Loop changeloop?

Paradis401: No rink near here. Louisville.

SAcademy: You’ll enjoy that. I would too.

Paradis401: I know it. I can hardly wait.

KultsiKN: Ginny, there’s a pic of you on ice.

SAcademy: Where?

DavidWrightSr: In one of the books wasn’t it. Grumbles?

KultsiKN: Grumbles

SAcademy: Oh, yes. I had forgotten that.

SAcademy: There’s one I have skating the blues with someone, that I really like.

BPRAL22169: Fred?

SAcademy: No, His name (believe it or not) was Joe Brown.

BPRAL22169: I don’t believe you’ve mentioned him to me.

DavidWrightSr: Hey, I went to Joe Brown High School, probably not the same guy. mine was named after the Governor of Georgia during the Civil War.

DavidWrightSr: :-)

SAcademy: I don’t think it was the same one. The one I mentioned lived in Batimore.

DavidWrightSr: You aren’t that old either :-)

Paradis401: Are you going to have pictures in the new biog?

SAcademy: You mean I don’t remember the Civil War? Well, you’re right

BPRAL22169: There will be new pictures.

DavidWrightSr: O:-)

Paradis401: Great!!!

SAcademy: Where did you find that one?

DavidWrightSr: When do you expect it to be finished?

DavidWrightSr: What? This? O:-) [Editor’s Note: AIM uses graphic smileys. This one is a smiley face with a halo]

BPRAL22169: Well, NitroSyncretic Press is going to bring out an expanded version of the sketch early next year.

SAcademy: Yes, David.

BPRAL22169: It’s going to take about a year or so to complete the formal bio. I’m writing while finishing up the research.

DavidWrightSr: On the bottom row of my smileys when I click on it. next to the link button.

DavidWrightSr: I’m hoping for Phils book for this Christmas. I can look forward to yours for next

SAcademy: I don’t have that one. Maybe it’s a different version of AiM?

BPRAL22169: I understand Jim is working on Phil’s right now. It was a tough book to edit.

SAcademy: I know. I read it.

BPRAL22169: It was really two books when it was originally written — the book on Heinlein’s political and esthetic philosophy, and the book on Heinlein as adult educator

DavidWrightSr: I’ll send you the character combination when I edit the log, so that you can type it in directly

Paradis401: Phil who?

BPRAL22169: Owenby

DavidWrightSr: He said that he hoped to have it out by end of November, but I guess it is going to be delayed.

Paradis401: Thanks.

SAcademy: Denis, I worked with him, too.

BPRAL22169: Phillip Homer Owenby, Ph.D. — his 1996 doctoral dissertation.

Paradis401: Great and good things.

KultsiKN: Indeed. This company is somewhat… overwhelming.

BPRAL22169: I understand book sales have slowed down considerably with the recession.

DavidWrightSr: I bring down the average :-)

Paradis401: Me too, Kutlsi.

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody!

BPRAL22169: Yo

KultsiKN: Hi, Denv!

Paradis401: Hi Denv. Snowing?

DenvToday: No, it’s sunny and warn today.

DenvToday: warm

BPRAL22169: Raining here — though no thunder so far.

OscagneTX has entered the room.

DenvToday: Hi Oscagne

KultsiKN: Hi, TX!

OscagneTX: Howdy

BPRAL22169: We are all high techs.

BPRAL22169: In a low sort of a way.

Paradis401: Is that what TX means?

SAcademy: Taxes, of course.

KultsiKN: :-)

BPRAL22169: That, too.

Paradis401: 😀

DenvToday: 😛

SAcademy: Shall we get the show on the road?

DavidWrightSr: Wonder where AG is. He is supposed to be leading this topic. Hope everything is ok.

BPRAL22169: It’s Denis’ topic, isn’t it?

Paradis401: Should we start talking about Pretty boys?

SAcademy: Why not?

DavidWrightSr: Right. forgot that

BPRAL22169: Set the stage, why don’t you?

Paradis401: Ok. Who’s pretty?

OscagneTX: Sorry… had to adjust my contacts. TX = Texas.

KultsiKN: Just look at me. 😎

DenvToday: lol

Paradis401: You’ll do, Kultsi.

KultsiKN: In a very robust way

Paradis401: I wonder if Jubal thought Michael was pretty.

DenvToday: The ultimate pretty boy – Galahad

SAcademy: That’s what I think, too.

BPRAL22169: I believe he said as much.

BPRAL22169: And let’s not forget Capt. Yancey.

Paradis401: Galahad was Obediah Jones, right?

KultsiKN: Right.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I know someone who wants to do an article for the Journal about how there was no room in Heinlein’s worlds for the “differently abled.”

KultsiKN: Well, Colin had other… compensations.

BPRAL22169: I point out things like that, and she goes away grumping.

DenvToday: lol Very true Kult.

Paradis401: Has she read ANY Heinlein Bill?

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, I don’t see David Wright’s alter ego here — David may need us to send him the parts of the log he will miss.

DenvToday: Good for you, Bill. RAH gets enough unfair criticism as it is.

BPRAL22169: That reminds me — this is a bit off topic, but do any of you run into that criticism that the incest bits in the last books are just RAH being a dirty old man or working out some personal kinks in print?

KultsiKN: Bill, saved this far

DenvToday: Let’s not forget Lt. Col. Racek (spelling) in Starship Troopers.

BPRAL22169: Thanks

BPRAL22169: Or the recruiting agent in the same book.

Paradis401: Yes, but RAG gets only criticism from Nut and Alices.

Paradis401: RAH

BPRAL22169: OK, I now understand the first half of that last sentence!

OscagneTX: Was Raczek (?) injured? I thought that was Col. Dubois.

KultsiKN: Bill, being a DOM meself it doesn’t bother me.

AGplusone has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Let’s not conflate them like the Horror did.

BPRAL22169: Well, it’s pure laziness on the part of the critic.

SAcademy: Hello, David. We began without you.

BPRAL22169: In literature we find incest motives in two places — the high mimetic and the very low mimetic.

Paradis401: Helle David California.

AGplusone: :::: wave :::: had trouble getting back on line.

DenvToday: Howdy David

BPRAL22169: Since Lazarus Long is surrounded by characters like Ishtar and Galahad and Hamadryad, I think it’s safe to say he’s working in the high mimetic.

KultsiKN: Hi,Dave!

BPRAL22169: RAH is always very straightforward with his readers — too many can’t read or won’t read.

AGplusone:continue … I’m listening.

BPRAL22169: Just working a side comment at the moment.

AGplusone: [who has the log, btw, noting David Wright’s not on?]

Paradis401: I think RAH was way ahead of his time, e.g. his treatment of sex, gay, Negroes etc.

KultsiKN: Me, this far.

DenvToday: I certainly agree Paradis.

AGplusone: Great, thank you, K

BPRAL22169: Certainly ahead of his time in racial terms.

AGplusone: I dunno about ‘straight-forward’ …

BPRAL22169: I’m less certain about sexual matters and the gay attitudes.

Paradis401: I have the log from the start but you’ll have to tell me how to send it to you.

BPRAL22169: He tells us up front what he’s dealing with.

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: He’s baa-aa-a-k!

AGplusone: Pop it into an e-mail and send it to me and Dave.

DavidWrightSr: Got hit by the blue screen of death

AGplusone: ag.plusone@verizon.net and dwrighsr@alltel.net

KultsiKN: Many of you don’t ‘preciate S’pore — to me it was an eye opener.

OscagneTX: Osc notes in passing that WinXP has a BSOD simulator.

DenvToday: Colin accepts Galahad’s kiss in TCWWTW. RAH didn’t avoid the homosexual side of our natures.

KultsiKN: or for me

Paradis401: See Jubal kissing Michael and Ben not wanting to do so.

BPRAL22169: I don’t mean he’s ever retrogressive about sexual matter and social attitudes toward gays — but he positioned himself more “cutting edge” than way ahead of his time in those respects, IMO

BPRAL22169: The Tellus Tertius family is polymorphous perverse in its constitution — just like Secundus in that respect.

KultsiKN: Denv, kissing another male is not necessarily sexual.

OscagneTX: true. That’s a Merkinism, isn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Americans are very screwey about this kind of thing.

DenvToday: But it was in this case, Kult. Colin expressly tells us so, and comments on his feelings about homosexuality.

KultsiKN: Well — there are kisses and kisses.

AGplusone: Do you mean that by the end of Glory Road, after Oscar’s development ensues, Oscar wouldn’t have considered the ‘handsome of face and figure’ interviewee as a “hermaphrodite,” Bill?

DenvToday: I can’t deny it. lol

Paradis401: Gotcha David about the log. Will do. Robert’s males kissing males are more apt today than then… therefore futuristic at the time.

AGplusone: Oscar’s typical of ‘Merikins’ I think.

BPRAL22169: Are you using “hermaphrodite” the way teenagers used to use “morphodike?” David

AGplusone: For 1962 … typical of teenagers of all ages.

BPRAL22169: I.e., have no idea at all what they’re talking about.

AGplusone: yes … but ‘queer’ in the sense meant then

OscagneTX: Yes… I see. He was “contemporary” rather than futuristic, and therefore “should” have been anti-gay (if he wasn’t gay himself).

BPRAL22169: Yes. That’s what I meant.

Paradis401: There are no guts with tits in any of Robert’s books!

KultsiKN: Even for me — then. 1962, I mean

Paradis401: Guys with tits. And I need new hands.

BPRAL22169: For a man to be made antsy by a “pretty man” indicates some challenges with attraction.

Paradis401: Some lack of maturity.

BPRAL22169: I.e., he’s being forced to confront an attraction in himself that he doesn’t want to confront.

KultsiKN: Definitely, Denis. More than anything alse.

OscagneTX: I dunno… I don’t see many “pretty” men, and when I do I wonder about self-centeredness and vanity.

BPRAL22169: Men who are secure in that respect, don’t have that same reaction. Europeans and Latins don’t have the same emotional challenges about the kiss of peace.

DavidWrightSr: Neither do we Orthodox :-)

AGplusone: “pressed curly locks” afflicted ’62 young men with those challenges then … evoked Tab Hunter or Troy Donahue …

Paradis401: Thanks. Kultsi.;-)

BPRAL22169: Tab Hunter was gay; Troy Donahue was not.

KultsiKN: Right, Bill, and still it requires a lot of maturity.

AGplusone: [even if “Tab” never had curly locks … that’s true, Bill, but Troy was afflicted with the label]

BPRAL22169: “maturity” in that respect.

AGplusone: ‘too pretty’ label

BPRAL22169: At least, I should say, I am not aware of anything in the news re Donahue, but I am about Tab Hunter.

KultsiKN: To feel that your “maleness” is not in question.

BPRAL22169: Someone who came up about the same time — the name now escapes me — played Jim West in The Wild Wild West.

DenvToday: Robert Conrad

DavidWrightSr: Conrad?

BPRAL22169: Yes, that’s it.

Paradis401: But pretty does not have to be gay. Pretty in Robert’s terms meant handsome.

AGplusone: Also in medieval or romance terms I think …

BPRAL22169: I don’t think his sexuality was ever called into question. Must be something subtle about self-presentation.

AGplusone: the Squire with his pressed curly locks

AGplusone: all those fellows Cyrano spent time crossing swords with … the Elizabethans with their perfume, codpieces, laces collars, who’d rather gut you than speak to you …

AGplusone: different times

KultsiKN: and different costoms, definitely.

KultsiKN: customs, that is

DavidWrightSr: costooms also :-)

BPRAL22169: True — a powdered wig wouldn’t get you a second look in the Orleans regency — but try it today.

BPRAL22169: I seem to have lost the thread of where we were going with this.

Paradis401: I’d rather go bald first.

DenvToday: We started with Pretty Boys

DenvToday: We veered into homosexuality

AGplusone: and possibly ‘pretty men’ … Michael Crichton in his last novel I read, the one about time travel, does something fascinating to me, they’re back in the 14th century and ‘rescued’ by a beautiful looking knight, who turns out to be

Paradis401: Pretty boys in Heinlein. I think we’re doing pretty well.

AGplusone: the biggest cutthroat in the book.

DenvToday: Ended up with Louis XIII

BPRAL22169: Reminds me of Poul Anderson’s The High Crusade.

DavidWrightSr: I always got a kick out of the things that Robert would do to knock us a little offguard. Such as nail polish on men in BTH, earrings in ST, (which thanks to Ginny), I know now was actually done by the marines in WWII, but it was…

DavidWrightSr: a jolt to me at the time I read them.

AGplusone: … the “perfect, gentle, knight … ”

KultsiKN: oz

Paradis401: The French have always been somewhat prissy. All that brocade, I guess. Heinlein pretty boys are the handsome types women drool over.

KultsiKN: uh… oxymoron

BPRAL22169: If you had to pinpoint one single message RAH had for us, it was that Things Change.

DavidWrightSr: Some or ugly-handsome, like Dak

Paradis401: Sounds good.

DavidWrightSr: Some are..

BPRAL22169: I believe Lazarus Long was described in those terms, too.

DavidWrightSr: He said his nose was too big IIRC

DavidWrightSr: among other things.

AGplusone: Ted Bronson was described at ‘pretty’ … by a girl

BPRAL22169: You can’t get the Things change message if you portray everything the same.

AGplusone: All men think their noses are too big

DavidWrightSr: And, Nope. won’t go there :-)

BPRAL22169: Reminds me of Dorothy Sayers’ description of Whimsey and St. George. Both were “parrot-beaked” but St. George was too pretty for his own good.

AGplusone: … it happens about the time their mommies take them out of laces and their daddies take them to the barber shop.

Paradis401: Maybe women like that too. Variety.

KultsiKN: And you all know about the direct correlation between the size of the nose and the size…

DavidWrightSr: Another Sayers fan.

AGplusone: of the thumb, right!

BPRAL22169: Doesn’t the makeup artist call Sam Jones “pretty”?

BPRAL22169: Just recalled that one.

AGplusone: Max Jones

DavidWrightSr: Not Sam, but Max

BPRAL22169: Right. Max Jones. Sam “Richardson.”

BPRAL22169: Sam Jones is the actor.

DavidWrightSr: Sam Roberts or Richards

BPRAL22169: Right again.

AGplusone: removes some of the hair, artificially causes wrinkles

AGplusone: aka Sam Anderson

DavidWrightSr: ‘You are too pretty to age you permanently’

KultsiKN: Starman Jones?

DenvToday: Larry’s father in Double Star tells him that he would have been a great actor–if he hadn’t been so pretty.

BPRAL22169: Recalls another one to mind — the candidate in the Mu story.

AGplusone: and they sully up his record by noting he got reduced in grade for smoking in a prohibited space

AGplusone: all to take away attention from a pretty boy

AGplusone: [yes, Starman Jones, K]

DavidWrightSr: Was David Lamb pretty. Just wondered if maybe watching the south end of a north-going mule made them that way :-)

BPRAL22169: I don’t think Larry’s father said he could hav ebeen a great actor — just that he wasn’t working hard enough; he could relying on his looks.

DavidWrightSr: ‘Too pretty and too stupid, and you are both’

DenvToday: Perhaps he said Larry might have been a great actor. I seem to remember something about that.

BPRAL22169: Great beauty and brains have the same thing in common — people who possess them can slide by without doing the necessary work.

DenvToday: Yes David, I remember that line.

AGplusone: Anyone think I came close about the ‘truth, beauty, beauty truth’ and Jubal’s observations on great art post?

BPRAL22169: That’s a whole major discussion of esthetics.

AGplusone: three artistic principals of character development, perhaps?

BPRAL22169: All truth is beautiful — but it may not be pretty.

Paradis401: You did very well with that post David.

BPRAL22169: I agree, Denis.

AGplusone: unless you see us as we appeared to ourselves in our minds when we were eighteen (men and women alike)

AGplusone: Which is how I view the Helmet Maker’s Wife

DenvToday: Doesn’t work for me. I looked like hell at 18.

AGplusone: ‘to ourselves in our minds’

AGplusone: so did I, that nose really got smashed around between 14 and 18

BPRAL22169: Have you seen La Belle Heaulmiere at the local museum, David?

BPRAL22169: They have a copy at LACMA

AGplusone: never, but I have a set of illustrations. Someone I knew knew I loved the description in Stranger in the late 60s and gave me the books for a birthday present

AGplusone: I’ll have to drop in to LA County Museum of Art

BPRAL22169: I owned 3 books of Rodin but none of them had that one.

OscagneTX: I actually had to go find them on the web. The Rodin museum has them. In rotational 3d I think, but I’ve slept since then.

BPRAL22169: You’ll have to hunt it up — they don’t do anything special with it. It’s about 12-14 inches high and they just had it on a table in a room of miscellaneous stuff when I was last there a few years ago. They’ve also

AGplusone: she really looks terrible, doesn’t she

BPRAL22169: got studies for the Burghers of Calais in the sculpture garden outside.

SAcademy: Rodin frequently made a number of copies of his own sculptures.

BPRAL22169: Yes, Anna Spreckles bought dozens of copies from his atelier while he was still alive — that’s the foundation of the collection at the SF Palace of the Legion of Honor

SAcademy: Tha one could be one o f his–not done by someone else.

DavidWrightSr: It just occurred to me that Jubal’s assessment of Rodin’s works is a lot like the way I see Robert’s works. He makes us see things that we need to see but might not necessarily want to.

Paradis401: Thanks Ginny. Robert’s art references in Stranger surprised me and at the same time moved me very much.

AGplusone: I agree, David … he makes you look at the ugliness to see the beauty beneath it

AGplusone: or the obverse

SAcademy: R. Dragged me to his atelier. I don’t like his work.

BPRAL22169: I think there’s a painter doing that kind of think now — mark Tansey.

DavidWrightSr: Not necessarily ugliness, just things out of the ordinary rut of my ‘universe’

AGplusone: Mrs. Grew is one of his great portraits. Didn’t we all love her in contrast with the two bitches who gossiped against “Goldie” when we read it.

SAcademy: One exception–Le Baiser

Paradis401: Merci, madame.

BPRAL22169: Not “The Thinker,” too.

SAcademy: Thaat’s a marble, rather than a bronze.

BPRAL22169: or Printemps?

OscagneTX: That name… confuzzled me when I read it. My real last name is McGrew…

BPRAL22169: My favorite is not one of the pictorial ones — it’s a hand coming out of a marble base, called “Cathedral.”

AGplusone: And if you read Alex Hergenshimer’s mind without thinking, doesn’t he appear, at first, a perfectly rational person … reasonable, restrained, worthy?

AGplusone: Making the best he can out of the world?

AGplusone: Until you realize the poison he passes so fluently?

BPRAL22169: Illustrates the principle that evil is banal.

DenvToday: Excellent point.

Paradis401: Rodin’s Penseur looked good to me before someone called it Le Chieur (the shitter). That was awful!

AGplusone: World’s Handsomest University President … well-reasoned, respected, concilatory …

BPRAL22169: LOL

AGplusone: the Press loved him.

AGplusone: or so their publishers said

KultsiKN: Ginny, ‘Le Baiser’ is a beautiful marble.

Paradis401: Yes!

BPRAL22169: I’ve only seen bronze copies.

DenvToday: A friend had a small copy of The Burghers of Calais. It always fascinated me.

BPRAL22169: The individual figures are wonderful

SAcademy: Like Michaelangelo’s work.

KultsiKN: Try this: http://www.sculpturegallery.com/sculpture/the_kiss2.html

AGplusone: Yes, I used to have a copy of that, K …

SAcademy: thanks. I have a picture taken at the atelier.

AGplusone: it was a very popular reproduction in the 60s … couldn’t pass thru a flea sale without stumbling over plaster of paris repros

BPRAL22169: That doesn’t appear to be a very good copy

BPRAL22169: (though perhaps it’s just the scan that is low in detail)

SAcademy: Marbles are far more difficult a medium to work in than bronze.

BPRAL22169: True — you have to get it right when you’re working stone.

AGplusone: It’s funny …. the blurb at the bottom of that prates about “Light and shade were used by Rodin to create”

AGplusone: that Jubal criticizes by saying they miss the point of the story.

AGplusone: art “critics” see the light and shade and sometimes miss the point

DavidWrightSr: Most ‘critics’ miss the point don’t they?

BPRAL22169: To be perfectly fair, art critics of the day were reacting to the academic tradition in French art, which was literary at the expense of the art values.

AGplusone: so they talk about ‘technique’ or form, not substance

DavidWrightSr: Present company excepted :-)

BPRAL22169: It’s certainly true that 20th century artists put far too much emphasis on technique.

AGplusone: like criticising an author for having all those ‘red-haired’ Super Gals … and missing the points.

BPRAL22169: Music suffered the most from that — stochastic “music” isn’t art at all.

DenvToday: Great music–all great art, for that matter–moves me. It isn’t enough for me to respect it intellectually.

DenvToday: I respect craft on an intellectual level.

Paradis401: Amen, Denv. Nice comment.

KultsiKN: Bill — I make jewelry as a passtime: if you don’t master the technique, it’s no use.

AGplusone: talking about “Ricki” in DS, btw, anyone notice her first name is really Virginia?

BPRAL22169: Sayers again: “She went to bed thinking of another more than of herself, showing that even minor art can have its uses.”

OscagneTX: Gee… do you think that’s a Coincidence?

Paradis401: Yes. Coincidence with Ticky?

AGplusone: sheer coincidence!

Paradis401: 😉

AGplusone: and her real last name is what, “Heinicke”?

BPRAL22169: True, Kultsi — but (a) you’re talking about a craft rather than about an art form per se; and (b) if all you do is technique, you will never get to doing art.

DenvToday: Kult, I agree. You must have the technique first, and the art will follow. Mozard had to learn scales before he could write a symphony.

DenvToday: Mozart

KultsiKN: So rite, Bill, Denv.

OscagneTX: Hrm… While we’re at it… Mrs. H, I really enjoyed reading about you in Tramp Royale.

AGplusone: what does “icke” mean, David, Kultsi?

Paradis401: Kultsi, the new Dali?

KultsiKN: But making jewlry is _not_ craft — only.

BPRAL22169: Didn’t say it was.

SAcademy: Certainly not. Look at Cellini.

Paradis401: Heinicke rhymes with Ticky.

SAcademy: Heinli cke was the name of a couple who lived down the street!

DavidWrightSr: as in Hein(icke). I don’t recognize, but suspect that it is a diminutive, perhaps a made up one. If you replaced it with a normal dimutive Heinicke would become Heinlein

DenvToday: Any name that is close to Heinekin is jake by me.

AGplusone: Really? to both of you.

BPRAL22169: I think he once said that the name was probably “Heimlein” originally — heavenly?

KultsiKN: Really don’t know, Dave — gives me the feeling ‘of the the Heine’, i.e. ‘of the moor’

BPRAL22169: Heimlich – Heinicke.

AGplusone: I sorta thought that …

Paradis401: Ever notice that the name of Johans’s nurse in IWFNE was Ginny?

AGplusone: lick is “like” or “ly”

AGplusone: lich

AGplusone: Winnie

BPRAL22169: But -ich is “like” so Heimlich would be heavenly, or like heaven.

Paradis401: Well, he meant Ginny.

Paradis401: 😀

AGplusone: agree, Denis

SAcademy: 😀

KultsiKN: YM that, Bill?

BPRAL22169: “heaven-ish.”

Paradis401: And her hair was red!

DenvToday: I thought it would mean Homey. Heim means home.

AGplusone: conclusive proof …

BPRAL22169: What does YM mean?

KultsiKN: Heimlich means ‘secret’

SAcademy: YA means young adult.

DavidWrightSr: Heimlich is ‘secretive’

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

BPRAL22169: Makes sense.

KultsiKN: Bill: You Mean.

BPRAL22169: Ah, well– it’s speculative at best.

DenvToday: Geheimnis?

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of a mistranslation my high school english teacher made. He said that ‘Geheimstaatspolizei’ was ‘Home town police’

BPRAL22169: Cute.

AGplusone: good lord

DavidWrightSr: instead of “Secret State Police”

BPRAL22169: Remind me not to go to Germany with him…

Paradis401: Was Ben in Stranger a pretty boy? Maybe to Jill if not Jubal.

SAcademy: No one knew where the name Heiinlein came from. Robert thought it was a corruption of Heim-lein–little house.

KultsiKN: Is not, Ginny.

BPRAL22169: I don’t recall any remarks about Ben’s physical appearance in Stranger.

DavidWrightSr: Appropriate: ‘Heimlein on the prairie’

AGplusone: or possibly “head of a little household”

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: Kultsi, /ga

Smn Jester has entered the room.

KultsiKN: ‘Die Heine’ means ‘the moor’ as far as I know; Heinlein is a diminutive of that.

AGplusone: Hi, Simon

KultsiKN: Hello, Simon.

Smn Jester: Gack! You mean this is a live chat! I’m not even dressed for the occasion!

BPRAL22169: Too many clothes or something?

SAcademy: Thank you,. Kultsi

KultsiKN: So use bold!

Paradis401: Moor as in N. African? Kultsi?

AGplusone: Hehe … what makes you think anyone is dressed. The Emperor might fit right in here.

DavidWrightSr: Moor as in the Scottish moors.

KultsiKN: Right, David.

Smn Jester: Well, I am dressed in smeggy clothes…

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, none of my German books are out.

Smn Jester: Wow… A RAH chat group… I like you guys already…

OscagneTX: ‘night everyone.

Paradis401: Night TX

OscagneTX has left the room.

KultsiKN: Simon, be bold!

KultsiKN: and I _do_ mean the font.

AGplusone: easier for Ginny to read it that way

Paradis401: Yeah, you don’t have to be pretty.

KultsiKN: i. e. SAcademy, Ginny that is.

Smn Jester: Bold working now?

KultsiKN: no

AGplusone: although if you can show us how pretty you looked in your mind, anyway, when you were eighteen … you’ll be an artist my friend.

SAcademy: No.

Smn Jester: Trying again…

Smn Jester: There we go!

AGplusone: That seems bold to me

Paradis401: Good show!

KultsiKN: ya got it!

DavidWrightSr: By george he’s got it

SAcademy: Better, thanks.

BPRAL22169: And shows good, too.

Smn Jester: Heh, I CAN be taught!

SAcademy: Where are you located, Simon?

Smn Jester: I’m near Detroit Michigan.

SAcademy: Thank you.

Paradis401: Yo!

SAcademy: I’m in Florida.

AGplusone: [sometimes] Sunny Santa Monica

Smn Jester: I was just down Florida ways in mid October. Interesting flying in that climate…

AGplusone: [we’re getting our two weeks of winter this month]

SAcademy: Sometimes there, or sometimes sunny?

DavidWrightSr: Red clay hills of Georgia

DenvToday: Oddly enough, I’m in Denver. lol

DavidWrightSr: Just for Today?

AGplusone: sometimes there … sometimes Lost in Space like the Admiral’s brother

SAcademy: Surprise.

DenvToday: How did you know?

DenvToday: :-)

DavidWrightSr: Wild guess

Smn Jester: Would it be rude of me to tell you guys something off subject?

DavidWrightSr: Not at all.

AGplusone: [that was a beautiful tape they sent you, Ginny] Not at all

SAcademy: G/A

DenvToday: If it’s salacious in any way, go ahead.

BPRAL22169: Possibly, but we’re braced for it.

KultsiKN: no, not to _this_ bunch.

Paradis401: Brace yourselves!

Smn Jester: Well, I got notice in the mail a few weeks ago that my first short story is going to be published…

AGplusone: prepare for incoming ….

BPRAL22169: Congratulations!

AGplusone: Yea!

DenvToday: Congrats!!

DavidWrightSr: That’s great. Where, what and when?

SAcademy: Great!

AGplusone: where/when/etc

Paradis401: And he off and running folks. Good news.!

BPRAL22169: You forgot Who and Why.

AGplusone: ‘etc’

Smn Jester: So, if you ever pick up a magazine called Alembic, look for a story by yours truly, called Maximum Blue.

AGplusone: what does alembic mean?

Smn Jester: HeY! I’m typin’ here! *G*

AGplusone: “Simon Jester”?

BPRAL22169: It’s a type of distilling apparatus

BPRAL22169: Alchemical glassware.

Smn Jester: Alembic is the name of the mag. Its sort of a wizards cauldron, if I remember correctly.

AGplusone: ah, a story on making serious booze!!!

BPRAL22169: They still use them for pot brandy

BPRAL22169: Schrammsburg makes a very nice alembic brandy.

Smn Jester: Ah, no… My real name is John McNeilly. I just have the character of Simon…

AGplusone: Great, thanks John

Smn Jester: You know, smartassed genius who likes to harrass authority…

AGplusone: where do we find the magazine?

AGplusone: yeah, that one …

Smn Jester: Find it? Uh… Not sure…

KultsiKN: Not My Newsstand.

SAcademy: I will try to find it.

Smn Jester: Probably hard to find. Not a very big magazine.

KultsiKN: 😀

DenvToday: Is it online?

AGplusone: or have a webpage?

Smn Jester: No, not online, far as I know.

KultsiKN: John, _tell_ them to go online.

Paradis401: I’ve heard of it but not here in the boonies.

AGplusone: published where?

KultsiKN: Denis, your boomies are far too close — compared to mine.

SAcademy: Oh, I got in a trade edition of Beyond This Horizon.

AGplusone: just tried www.alembic.com/ 404

Smn Jester: Heh… I will. Especially when I make my name in the market, they’ll want to have a web site saying they were the first to publish my best-selling, Hugo award winning novels…

Smn Jester: Modesty too…

AGplusone: from whom, Ginny?

DenvToday: lol Really, that’s impressive John. I wish you much success.

Paradis401: Boonies for boondock as in yahoo redneck country… Kultsi.

SAcademy: Baen Books. I’d forgotten it was coming. If I get more copies I will distribute them

BPRAL22169: I made a hotbot search for alembic and got glassware and musical instruments, but no magazine.

BPRAL22169: Tony Weisskopf handed me one at Worldcon.

DenvToday: John, what sort of stories do you write? Fantasy, hard sf? Something inbetween?

SAcademy: Bill for pete’s sake use google.

Paradis401: Is Baen still doing a lot fo RAH Ginny?

Smn Jester: Yeah, they are small. But I wanted to get anything published for future tries at the market. It was my fourth try.

KultsiKN: I know, Denis — was just pointing out that I’m _way_farther off.

BPRAL22169: Old habits die hard.

SAcademy: Baen is doing much of Rober’ts work.

Smn Jester: Well, I think I’m what you would call a hard Sci Fi writer. My stories tend towards the darker end of the spectrum, but not horror.

SAcademy: Many of them paperbacks.

Paradis401: Great!

DavidWrightSr: Great. I need new copies. Most of mine are in tatters.

BPRAL22169: I like most of Baen’s hardbacks, but his format seems to crowded in his paperbacks — not enough margins for my taste.

DenvToday: Sounds very interesting.

BPRAL22169: Well, here’s an Alembic Press, but it’s a fine letterpress publisher in Oxford — probably not your magazines.

Paradis401: Thanks Bill. I didn’t know Baen had hard covers.

SAcademy: Baen must have at least a dozen. I haven’t counted.

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Revolt in 2100, Podkayne, I think, Green Hills I’ve seen in Baen hardbacks.

KultsiKN: Howdy, JJ!

AGplusone: You mentioned the offer to put out a tape version of Farmer in the Sky, Ginny. Are they talking unabridged? Hi, JJ. Missed telling you how we appreciated the blood donation in Philly.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

JJ Brannon: Hi, All!

AGplusone: Yo, Joel.

Smn Jester: My fiance teases me because I have two shelves in my library specifically for RAH books. She just rolls her eyes at me.

KultsiKN: Hi, Joel!

Paradis401: Hi JJ and Joel.

JJ Brannon: Glad to be of service.

joelrmpls: Hi, all. Oops — I’ve got the wrong client; when I log back on, could somebody invite me back? Otherswise, I can’t bold fonts….

DenvToday: http://ri.xu.org/arbalest/alembic2h.html

Paradis401: Congrats Simon. You have a Heinlein library.

joelrmpls has left the room.

SAcademy: Hello Joel.

DenvToday: Something about The Alembic

DenvToday: Hi Joel

SAcademy: Is Felicia coming, too?

JJ Brannon: I’m just glad we were ahead of the curve & in the region for the WTC disaster.

JJ Brannon: What

Smn Jester: Speaking of blood… I gave blood sporadically ’til I read about the Heinleins’ interest in it. Now my goal is to send Virginia my ten gallon certificate one of these days.

JJ Brannon: What’s the topic?

joelrmpls has entered the room.

Paradis401: Somebody invite Joel in. I don’t know how to do that.

KultsiKN: I did.

Paradis401: Pretty boys!

AGplusone: Still talking about “pretty boys” or maybe ‘art’ in Heinlein novels

joelrmpls: Argh… I did it again. Back in a sec.

joelrmpls has left the room.

JJ Brannon: I’m somewhere to the north of 4 gal.

JJ Brannon: Oh! Not done from last night.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

Paradis401: Huh?

SAcademy: Be sure not to hit “esc”–that will throw you offline.

BPRAL22169: That reminds me — it’s nearly 4:00 and we should probably take a break if we’re going to.

joelrmpls: Well, that’s better.

Smn Jester has left the room.

joelrmpls: Still working out a few strangenesses in the new environment.

JJ Brannon: OK

Paradis401: Give the ladies a chance to show up and talk about pretty boys.

SAcademy: I could use something to eat.

Smn Jester has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: That’s right — I just noticed Ginny is the only femme-type here today all day.

Smn Jester: Art? As in cover art?

Smn Jester: Well, that was fun…

SAcademy: BRB

joelrmpls: Me, too — got to leave and make dinner in about half an hour.

Paradis401: Koffee! BRB

BPRAL22169: I think we’ve got a de facto break going on.

DavidWrightSr: Why don’t we all have a short break. Haven’t had one this evening

BPRAL22169: Ten minutes?

JJ Brannon: Sounds fine to me.

joelrmpls: Ok. I’ll just not log off, given the trouble I had logging on . . . .

DavidWrightSr: Don’t log off. In fact, we often just chat even more informally during breaks.

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: good … back at 10 past the hour … heading off for some libation, preferably one made by alembic distillation …

DenvToday: Pour one for me Dave

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: AOL is something… vile.

AGplusone: 😀

Smn Jester: Someone pour me drink too. I’m far too excited.

Smn Jester: Silly buttons…

AGplusone: in celebration!

Paradis401: Well, I’m glad we have RAH’s pretty girl of all time talking about pretty boys with us dudes.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. Ain’t that something?

AGplusone: Is anyone on AOL in this room right now?

Smn Jester: Naw, that euphoria wore off a few days after I got the acceptance letter. I’m sure you guys know how some people get really caught up with their favorite authors. Well… I’m feeling really fannish right now…

Paradis401: It’s great. We have to remind her at times.

DenvToday: I’m on AOL.

AGplusone: Pixelmeow is trying to join … send her an invitation

JJ Brannon: I’m on AOL.

AGplusone: she can’t use her dsl right now

BPRAL22169: I’m on AOL — though with DSL I don’t have to be.

Pixelmeow has entered the room.

Pixelmeow: Goodness, I guess that

Pixelmeow: will do it…

AGplusone: welcome Pix! now we have two pretty girls

DenvToday: John, I’m sure this is just the beginning.

Pixelmeow: thanks, david!

Smn Jester: Okay, here is a question… Spider Robinson make Pixel a character in one of his last books. Was/is there a real cat name Pixel?

Pixelmeow: I used to have one…

Paradis401: It worked. My hex! A good hex!

AGplusone: not me …. I asked several in here to send you invitations

Pixelmeow: David SR did.

Paradis401: Pixel was Robert’s last cat. A yellow tabby.

Pixelmeow: Kultsi asked, David just did it. :-)

DavidWrightSr: I try to keep an eye open for everyone

JJ Brannon: I have a software conflict & need to reboot.

JJ Brannon: Be back in 5-10.

Pixelmeow: okay

AGplusone: Well, speaking of alembic … Ernie and Julio probably didn’t use it for their cheap brandy, but here’s to you, Simon. congratulations!

JJ Brannon has left the room.

Pixelmeow: What’s the good news?

Smn Jester: Ah, the joys of Microsoft… One day, I’m going to stop procarastinating and load Linux…

AGplusone: We’re in a ten minute hiatus right now. Simon just got published, for the first time.

Pixelmeow: Cool!

Pixelmeow: Congrats!

Paradis401: We are tolking about Pixel who was also a pretty boy.

Smn Jester: Minor correction; just a letter telling me the story is going to be in an upcoming edition of the mag.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Pixelmeow: I’m glad to hear there was a real “Pixel”.

KultsiKN has left the room.

Pixelmeow: Other than mine, of course…

AGplusone: That’s what I tell “Bob” he is … hi, Ron, welcome. Mike! Welcome.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

Pixelmeow: but she was a girl and a siamese.

Paradis401: He was also in CWWTW

Dehede011: But he didn’t walk through walls — darn it.

Dehede011: Hi everyone

Pixelmeow: Hi, there!

KultsiKN: If I knew it’d help, I’d shoot somebody…

DenvToday: Dehede, how do you know he didn’t walk through walls?

Smn Jester: Mine is a common black house cat. But then, what good author DOESN’T have a cat… *S*

Pixelmeow: Pixel “in Cat” did.

Paradis401: Ginny may be able to tell you more about the real Pixel. He was dearly loved.

Dehede011: Cause he would have told me — we used to talk often

DenvToday: Ah…that makes sense. :-)

Dehede011: :-)

Paradis401: Did uou talk to the real one Dehede?

Paradis401: Confess!

Dehede011: No, of course not but I would have to be a fence post to not know Ginny loved her cats

AGplusone: [btw: notice how I haven’t said a thing about “On Brave Old Army Team … ” but that was a good recovery of an on-side kick by a kid named White from Virginia Beach, speaking of nothing important …]

Dehede011: Yes, but Army won and that is what counts

AGplusone: Any chance his parents might be retired Navy, Ginny?

Dehede011: But the real question is what happened to Navy?

Dehede011: That is a better team than a 0 — 9 record indicates

Paradis401: Pixel was Robert’s baby first and foremost. Ginny got seconds.

AGplusone: A plebe named White …

DenvToday: I am munching beer nuts in anticipation of the Colorado – Texas game. You have to eat salty snack food during great games. It’s the law.

SAcademy: I soldn’t bring Pixel here with me, and David Gerrold offered to take him. David came to my house and took Pixel down south with him. The first chance Pixel had, he walked out of David’s house and wasn’t seen again.

AGplusone: yes

Dehede011: Darn, that is sad

Paradis401: He went looking for Robert. No kidding!

AGplusone: a shame … maybe he found another home … cats select their homes

DenvToday: I’m so sorry to hear that.

SAcademy: Sorry about the Italics.

AGplusone: mine did … musta liked my daughter or wife

Smn Jester: I like the idea of living in Key West with a bunch of weirdoes…

AGplusone: he and me took a while to warm to each other

pakgwei has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: I believe it is time to reconvene

AGplusone: LTNC, pakgwei … good to have you here.

pakgwei: Topic Tonight?

joelrmpls: Cats are sometimes like that. It took Squish ten years to warm up to Felicia.

Paradis401: Anyhow. Pixel was the ultimate pretty boy in RAH.

Dehede011: I am used to the cats on our farm — more a matter of co-workers

AGplusone: “Pretty Boys in Heinlein” or a discussion of his heroes …

Smn Jester: All cats are pretty boys. Even the girls…

AGplusone: or artistry in creating them.

BPRAL22169: Robert’s revenge for Schroedinger’s Cat, doomed to die when the box is opened.

joelrmpls: Ginny: is this legible?

AGplusone: Looks bold to me, Joel.

BPRAL22169: Or not, as the case may be.

SAcademy: Pixel was a beauty, from the day we first got him,

Paradis401: That’s OK Bill. I think you have something there.

AGplusone: And Pixel’s the real hero in Cat anyway.

Dehede011: How old was he, Ginny, when you first got him?

AGplusone: if he doesn’t bring back the cavalry, Campbell’s thin red line gets soaked up in the dark sand

SAcademy: A few weeks old.

Dehede011: Thank you.

SAcademy: We had him for almost eight years.

AGplusone: Did Robert ever mention why he used Colin Campbell’s name for Richard Ames, Ginny?

Dehede011: Wow, I don’t think we ever hung on to one that long

Pixelmeow: How did you come up with the name Pixel?

Paradis401: Taffy before that was also a golden tabby and he is now in the Heinlein crater on Mars.

joelrmpls: We’ve had Squish for 16; Bubbles almost made it to 17. Most marriages, these days, don’t last that long.

SAcademy: I don’t think he said anything about using Colin’s name for Richard Ames.

Dehede011: Yes, but ours had to live the rough and ready life of a farm cat

AGplusone: famous man … ‘and here was the ‘thin red line’ … ‘

Smn Jester: The name Colin is Scottish and Campbell too. Campbell is a bit notorious though.

SAcademy: Pixel was named because he was quick, bright in color and very fast.

Pixelmeow: :-) That makes sense.

Pixelmeow: Thanks!

Paradis401: Like Ginny!

Pixelmeow: :-)

SAcademy: Why is Campbell notorious?

Dehede011: Pixel should be here tonight. I am making a chinese style seafood stew.

Smn Jester: Cuz the Campbells slaughtered the MacDonalds of Glencoe.

AGplusone: yes … but say that nicely, Simon. Got some of ’em up in my tree … Gibbon

Paradis401: Not to me. John Campbell maybe.

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of cats, I just had to get up and go to the kitchen to feed her. She is 21 years old.

SAcademy: I am not certain that Robert knew that much of scottish history!

Paradis401: I like that David W. Sweet 21.

AGplusone: Ever read John MacDonald Frazer?

Smn Jester: Campbell is like being named Benedict Arnold to a Scot.

AGplusone: only to MacDonalds 😀

Smn Jester: Er… I hope you know what I meant… *S*

DenvToday: Was Petronius Arbiter a real cat?

DenvToday: aka Pete :-)

joelrmpls: Well, I did have a cat named Petronius Arbiter, after the obvious one. :-)

SAcademy: Yes, Petronius was another cat. but under a different name.

Paradis401: Wasn’t Pete the inspiration for DIS? Ginny?

AGplusone: was a real character in Quo Vadis, and historically, in Rome under Nero.

Smn Jester: Ah… Door Into Summer. First book I ever read. Shows what an affect ‘firsts’ can have on you… *G*

Dehede011: The cat of RAHs that caught my fancy was Plato in an early short story

SAcademy: Actually that incident at the start of the book happened. Only it was me and I took him from one door to another and finally told R. that he was looking for the door into summer.

Smn Jester has left the room.

AGplusone: The ‘teacher’ or mentor of Nero who cheats Nero’s headsman by calling in his friends, having a banquet and opening his veins among them, leaving a letter telling Nero what he really thought of his ‘art’ …

Smn Jester has entered the room.

Paradis401: Best anecdote ever on RAH – straight from Ginny.

Smn Jester: That was an odd crash…

AGplusone: wb

AGplusone: did you accidentally hit ESC?

Smn Jester: GAnecdote? Umm… Could someone repeat that? I got sucked into cyberspace…

Pixelmeow: That was wonderful!

Paradis401: What was the cat’s name? Who inspired RAH to write Door Into Summer?

SAcademy: It will be in the log of this session.

AGplusone: you just missed an anecdote about Petronius Arbiter from me.

DenvToday: That’s a wonderful bit of lore, one I’ll remember.

Smn Jester: Okay. Where do I find the log?

Pixelmeow: I just read that today!

AGplusone: Dave posts the logs on his site.

Dehede011: DaveAG, I know it is usually a joke, but “I remember the movie.”

DavidWrightSr: I’ll send you the URL when I get it posted. You already gave me your address

Paradis401: Actually it was Ginny’s comment about the cat that provided the inspiration.

SAcademy: David Wright will post it and put a notice on AFH when it’s ready. He corrects our typing mistakes.

AGplusone: yes … movie was fairly close the the Pulizer prize (Nobel?) novel.

Smn Jester: Balshoya spaseeba David.

DavidWrightSr: Pozhalsta

AGplusone: Ustinov was great in the movie

DavidWrightSr: Sometimes correct typos. Unless I am too lazy :-)

Dehede011: But the Englishman that played Petronius was my hero

KultsiKN has left the room.

DenvToday: Genn. Leo Genn

AGplusone: he did a great job

Dehede011: Yes, wow there is a name from the past

AGplusone: Ustinov played Nero

BPRAL22169: Sienkewicz?

DenvToday: He was also terrific as Starbuck in the Gregory Peck version of Moby Dick.

Smn Jester: Um, which movie?

AGplusone: yes, Bill … “Quo Vadis”

BPRAL22169: Quo Vadis, I think.

Dehede011: Funny, I can remember the seat and the theatre but cannot recall the name of the movie

BPRAL22169: “Whither Thou Goest.”

Paradis401: Hmmmm….

DenvToday: Quo vadis, Domine?

AGplusone: Petronius Arbiter was a real Roman

AGplusone: and a character in the novel

AGplusone: The ‘teacher’ or mentor of Nero who cheats Nero’s headsman by calling in his friends, having a banquet and opening his veins among them, leaving a letter telling Nero what he really thought of his ‘art’ …

Paradis401: I had the candle, you were the wick. Who lost the flame?

Smn Jester: I’ll have to read the book then. Don’t remember the movie.

DenvToday: Very good movie, as Biblical epics go.

Smn Jester: I’m odd in the regard that most times I’ve read the book and not seen the movie. Read ‘Harry Potter’ right now and then on to ‘K-Pax’…

joelrmpls: Not a lot you can do with the characters, the obvious exception aside.

Smn Jester: Reading, that is…

AGplusone: Quo Vadis, by Henryk Sienkiewicz, ISBN 0-7818-0185-0 is a pretty good recent translation

Paradis401: Nice to see that someone uses ISBNs

SAcademy: It’s a classic. It was around when I was in school.

Smn Jester: Someone help me out here. I got to this website through a link in the Heinlein Society web page, but I don’t see the address for THIS site on the page I linked through.

AGplusone: could someone on AOL invite “JJBrannon” back in, please?

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

AGplusone: not an address per se … the link works, but you can make a shortcut if you’re using a PC-type window

DenvToday: http://members.tripod.com/readinggroups/heinlein.htm

SAcademy: Make a shortcut to this place. Announcements will be on AFH

Paradis401: That shortcut works David. I tried it Thursday.

SAcademy: I think the shortcut is under “File” up above.

AGplusone: if it’s a Mac you’re using, let me know and I’ll tell you another way to do it.

DavidWrightSr: Unfortunately, it doesn’t work for MACs and Linux versions, I understand

DavidWrightSr: The shortcut that is..

Pixelmeow: I just saw Harry Potter last weekend, and it struck me that the attractive

Pixelmeow: boys/men in the movie happened to also be the bad guys.

JJ Brannon: I’m back.

Smn Jester: Ah, that shortcut will work nicely.

AGplusone: [but Mac users are tricky and find ‘work-arounds’ even when Steve Case forgets them]

Dehede011: brb

Pixelmeow: More specifically, the good guys looked scary…

AGplusone: I must see that, then, Teresa.

JJ Brannon: I’m no expert on pretty boys.

Smn Jester: A coworker of mine took his son to see the movie. He’s been calling me ‘Hagrid’ all week…

Pixelmeow: and the pretty boy, one of Harry’s classmates, was a hideous person.

BPRAL22169: That’s a standard Nerd trope — the popular jocks are the antagonists.

Paradis401: Sneaky, Pixel. But a neat way to get us back on topic.

Pixelmeow: You look like Hagrid???

Pixelmeow: Who me???

DenvToday: Being physically perfect has been a heavy burden, but I handle it well.

Smn Jester: I’m 6’2″, 300 pounds, long black hair and beard and I love my leather trench coat…

Paradis401: If your wife agrees Joel, you are smiling.

Pixelmeow: I just thought it was strange that this is what we’re talking about…

Pixelmeow: Wow…

AGplusone: I always liked the ‘broken nose’ gaining enough yards to own the California Central Valley secondary rushing record” line

AGplusone: wish it was mine …

Pixelmeow: and I’d just seen a movie where you really couldn’t tell a book by its cover.

Smn Jester: Which movie was that?

Pixelmeow: Still talking about the same one.

Pixelmeow: :-)

Pixelmeow: I mean, there was one guy, the leader of the Slytherin house,

Pixelmeow: and he’s *always* the bad guy.

Smn Jester: A movie that I think is highly under rated is October Sky. Anyone see that one?

JJ Brannon: Snapes?

DenvToday: Smn, are you a young guy? Are you just starting out as a writer?

Pixelmeow: He was the sheriff in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves.

Pixelmeow: Yep!

AGplusone: is there a convention that survives in writing about physical characteristic of Galahads today.

BPRAL22169: Come to think of it, wasn’t the antagonist in Ghormenghast pretty, too?

Paradis401: Are there any pretty boys for you in RAH, Pixel?

Pixelmeow: He was wonderful!

Smn Jester: Don’t tell me too much about the movie. I’m only a hundred pages of the book! *G*

AGplusone: I’ve seen October Sky

Pixelmeow: I’m trying to hold back. :-)

Smn Jester: Well, I’m 32. Not spring chicken, but yes, I’m just strating out as a writer.

AGplusone: we had Homer Hickam visit us on AFH briefly

Pixelmeow: Hm, pretty boy for me in RAH is Michael.

Pixelmeow: VMS, that is.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t hold back. Tell us why?

Paradis401: Good Girl!

joelrmpls: Family back; suppertime; gotta go. Later, all….

DenvToday: Yes, I saw October Sky. I loved it. It was full of the innocent love of achievement and science that I love about the RAH juveniles.

joelrmpls has left the room.

Pixelmeow: David, SR, I was trying not to spoil the movie, you perv!

JJ Brannon: About 12 years ago Tom Hanks’ name was being bandied about to play Michael.

AGplusone: someone had a question for him about inspiration by Rocket Ship Galileo, etc.

Pixelmeow: Okay, later!

Smn Jester: I exchanged a few emails with Homer. I apparently asked his wife some interesting questions that she couldn’t answer. I really enjoy interacting with authors I admire.

Pixelmeow: I don’t see Tom Hanks as Michael.

Paradis401: Hanks was a better than the earlier Mick Jagger.

Pixelmeow: Akk!

Pixelmeow: No thanks!

BPRAL22169: Frejack!

Smn Jester: October Sky was/is a big inspiration for me. Follow your dreams and all that.

JJ Brannon: He could muster the other wordly innocence but the Michaelangelo-ness?

AGplusone: Have you read the sequel, Simon?

AGplusone: sorta sequel

Paradis401: I read about that in Playboy years ago. About Mick.

Smn Jester: The Christmas one? Nope, not yet.

pakgwei: maybe that guy from A Knights Tale as Michael

AGplusone: It’s worth it

Pixelmeow: I think Michael should look very much like Michelangelo’s David, personally.

AGplusone: in paper now

Smn Jester: I read Back to the Moon, and really enjoyed that one.

AGplusone: so did I

BPRAL22169: He’s got the touseled blond hair thing going for him, doesn’t he?

Paradis401: That’s why I thought RAH’s comments about Sturgeon reminded me of Stranger.

DenvToday: Yeah, but he’s a bit…um…stunted. Ahem.

BPRAL22169: Can’t remember his name — an Aussie, introduced in The Patriot

AGplusone: Pitt could do him. and Pitt’s a good actor

Dehede011: Guys, I stole this machine while its owner took a break. Now I am a pumpkin again

Pixelmeow: Oh, yeah, that works…

AGplusone: the one who played Gibson’s son?

JJ Brannon: I thought Ted Sturgeon was the template for Larry Smith.

DenvToday: Ledger?

BPRAL22169: Yes.

JJ Brannon: Not the bookseller.

Dehede011: Have a good evening, bye

Paradis401: That’s interesting JJ.

DenvToday: He was also in A Knight’s Tale, though I didn’t see it.

Dehede011 has left the room.

Pixelmeow: I loved Meet Joe Black, and that really made me think of VMS…

AGplusone: Pitt was fantastic in A River Runs Through It … now if Redford agreed to produce it, it’d get done!

DenvToday: Heath Ledger? Is that the name?

JJ Brannon: From the DS and Godbody essay about the imitations.

AGplusone: and actually might bear some resemblance to the book

BPRAL22169: There is still the tiny — really negligible, really — matter of the script.

Paradis401: Pitt in Joe Black is indeed pretty.

JJ Brannon: But aging fast…

DenvToday: Oh yeah, that. No big deal. First we have to settle how curly Mike’s hair should be.

Pixelmeow: I loved him best in Vampire, tho…

JJ Brannon: Of course, with CGI…

AGplusone: all pretty boys age fast. Look at Bill Holden.

Paradis401: Someone mentioned Jude Law on thursday.

BPRAL22169: I don’t think so.

DenvToday: Something to think about: Marlon Brando used to be a pretty boy. ’nuff said.

AGplusone: Ernie Bourgnine to Holden: “Time to go … ”

SAcademy: Marlon Brando???

DenvToday: Yes, in the late 40’s and early 50’s. Seems inconceivable now, I know.

pakgwei: hell, i used to be a pretty boy

pakgwei: :-)

SAcademy: He’s so dissipated looking.

Paradis401: 😀

Smn Jester: Go to jail. You’ll be a ‘pretty boy’ once more…

BPRAL22169: Time and dissiplation will do that.

AGplusone: so did I … my mother saved my freshman year football picture … she loved it …

Pixelmeow: OT for a sec…

Pixelmeow: who here is not from afh?

BPRAL22169: Who would notice?

DenvToday: I was never pretty. The good news is that I haven’t gotten uglier as I age. lol

AGplusone:

pakgwei: i used to be from AFH… does that count?

Pixelmeow: maybe, how were you known there?

Paradis401: 😎

pakgwei: a couple names

Pixelmeow: I just like to know who I’m talking to…

Pixelmeow: :-)

BPRAL22169: I just looked over the present list, and it occurs to me that David and I are the only original AOL members left.

pakgwei: last one was ‘stranger’ i think

AGplusone: JJ Brannon goes back that far Bill

Paradis401: Pakgwie can you bold?

BPRAL22169: I don’t recall that handle.

Paradis401: And send me a prescription for my hands. All butter here.

AGplusone: Zim remembers everything … 😎

Pixelmeow: I know the Davids, and Bill, and Ginny, and Simon, but that’s all I can tell from these names…

pakgwei: Im the one who got yelled at for starting to offer downloads of the RAH radio shows from the 50s

SAcademy: Good for you, David1

Pixelmeow: Oh my…

Paradis401: Very interesting…….

Pixelmeow: I remember talking about a radio show that really sounded like RAH…

AGplusone: Actually, the d/ls (some of them) are offered by a website that owns rights to them, now.

AGplusone: Problem is: you have to listen to them while on-line

SAcademy: Those radio shows were put on tapes, and it has been uncontrollable ever since.

Smn Jester: *ears perking up* Downloads?

pakgwei: well the whole argument last time i checked was that alot of people claimed ownership but no one would prove it

Paradis401: Pixel, I’m Denis with one n.

Smn Jester: I heard the old radio show I heard one time, about Rhysling, right?

Pixelmeow: Oh okay!!!!

DavidWrightSr: Point us to it, and we’ll check it out.

AGplusone: I’ve never heard that one.

pakgwei: The Green Hills of Earth?

AGplusone: would like to

pakgwei: yeah, I have that one

AGplusone: There’s a site that sells tapes

AGplusone: lemme dig for it … brb

Smn Jester: Yeah! That one. Wouldn’t mind hearing it again. Know what the site is?

SAcademy: Yes, Without any permissions, too, I might add.

Pixelmeow: So, back to pretty boys…

Pixelmeow: :-)

Paradis401: O:-)

BPRAL22169: We should probably put in a plug for the Atlanta Radio Theatre group — they have just released a (permissioned) adaptation of “The Man who Traveled in Elephants.”

BPRAL22169: On CR-ROM

Smn Jester: So, Pixel, like guys with beards? **waggling eyebrows**

Pixelmeow: Stoppit!!!

Paradis401: Thanks Bill.

Pixelmeow: :-)

DenvToday: lol Simon

pakgwei: is wagling legal in public?

Pixelmeow: I do like goatees…

Smn Jester: I’m interested in any and all RAH paraphinalia.

BPRAL22169: I never got used to goatees — van Dykes are ok.

Smn Jester: Well, I normally go with the goatee, but am growing my beard out for winter.

Pixelmeow: some people look great in beards. Van Dyke is wonderful on Val Kilmer…

AGplusone: nice job as Doc Holliday

Paradis401: Get yourself a cannon, Simon.

Pixelmeow: Yep!

BPRAL22169: That was the role I immediately thought of.

Pixelmeow: Loved that accent!

Pixelmeow: You caught me, Bill, that was exactly what I meant.

BPRAL22169: Oh, I see. The goatee is a tuft of hair growing down from the chin, with nothing else.

AGplusone: Altho I thought the whatzisname brother who did Holliday in Kevin Costner’s version was equally good

Pixelmeow: Mustache that goes down around the bottom of the chin.

Smn Jester: You may have meant that in jest, but I am interested in finding a little brass cannon.

BPRAL22169: That’s a Van Dyke.

AGplusone: and Ingrid’s daughter doing Kate Elder was fantastic!

DenvToday: Dennis Quaid

BPRAL22169: Named afte rthe Dutch painter.

AGplusone: Right, Quaid

DavidWrightSr: Not Dick Van Dyke? :-)

Paradis401: Are we getting Harry here? No I consider a cannon a Heinlein tradition.

Pixelmeow: I thought a van dyke was that thingy Val wore… mustache with thingy below bottom lip, nothing on chin…

DenvToday: I think that’s a soul patch

Pixelmeow: I really like him, too…

Pixelmeow: DVD, that is…

BPRAL22169: Can’t recall the name of that style.

BPRAL22169: Very popular in the civil War

BPRAL22169: (American Civil War, I mean)

Pixelmeow: The thingy where you shave from the ears down to either side of the mouth *only* is what I thought was a goatee.

AGplusone: remember the cavalry officer in Rio Grande, the one with the beard … I think that was a van Dyke … french version.

DavidWrightSr: War Between the States

Smn Jester: I’ve shaved my goatee down to a narrow strip on chin a few times. It changes quickly though as people say I look like a Klingon with it that way.

Pixelmeow: So you are left with mustache, chin, and thingy under the lip, all connected at sides of mouth.

Pixelmeow: ROFL!!!

Pixelmeow: Especially if you look like Hagrid!!!

Paradis401: See Ginny for the original Heinlein cannon. Oh, a young Dennis Quaid would make an RAH pretty boy.

Pixelmeow: (he was my favorite in the movie, btw)

DenvToday: Simon, perhaps it’s the brow ridges.

Pixelmeow: Um, not for me…

Pixelmeow: I don’t think Quaid is pretty at all.

Smn Jester: Or the fact that I carry a bat’leth sometimes… *G*

Pixelmeow: Simon has brow ridges???

pakgwei: other than VMS, what were the pretty boys?

DenvToday: lol

Paradis401: That’s why you’re here. Tell us where we err.

AGplusone: The Quaid brother who is pretty was the younger one who played the youngest Younger … in whatever that movie was … about the Youngers and James’s

Smn Jester: *hanging head* Yes, I do have brow ridges. But they are in the BACK of my head…

Paradis401: Galahad.

BPRAL22169: I think Dennis Quaid would qualify for ugly-handsome

DenvToday: Randy Quaid is the goofy-looking brother.

Pixelmeow: I can see that, it just isn’t my idea of ugly-good.

Pixelmeow: That’s okay, Simon.

DenvToday: Well, I must be off. Thanks to you all for a great discussion, as always.

DenvToday: Night all!

Pixelmeow: Okay!

AGplusone: night Ron

Paradis401: Bye Denv

DenvToday: Bye :-)

Pixelmeow: I think of Galahad as the really really pretty one, no rough edges at all.

DenvToday has left the room.

Pixelmeow: Like a model.

JJ Brannon: But short.

AGplusone: we have pushed on for the full three hours, remarkable!

Paradis401: Yay!

BPRAL22169: The influx of new people in the last hour helped quite a lot.

Pixelmeow: Johnny Depp! That’s who!

Paradis401: Like that one eh?

Pixelmeow: Maybe him if he were blond…

JJ Brannon: Galahad, I mean.

Pixelmeow: Oh, yes!

AGplusone: Next topic is going to be P-C relationships … (parent-child) with co-host Alan Milner (Sage Merlin@ aol.com)

Pixelmeow: Are we done talking about pretty men???

AGplusone: His lead off should be out on AFH by Monday (maybe)

AGplusone: I don’t mind if you talk about me after I leave, Pix

BPRAL22169: Funny — Larry Smythe didn’t come up as much as I thougth he would.

Paradis401: Alan’s topic should be lots of fun.

Pixelmeow: Oh you are too much. You and David SR…

Pixelmeow: Both of you just full of yourselves!

DavidWrightSr: Moi?

AGplusone: we’re toddily evil

BPRAL22169: Oh, is that what he’s full of?

BPRAL22169: I wondered.

Pixelmeow: :-)

AGplusone: anyone have trouble finding AFH?

Paradis401: Sage and Son right? For next topic.

Smn Jester: I wouldn’t mind finding out where to get some prints of RAH. The only thing I have is a print of the cover for The Man Who Sold the Moon.

AGplusone: right!

BPRAL22169: I always thought Larry Smith was patterned after Lawrence Olivier.

BPRAL22169: Or maybe him mixed with Alex Guinness

Pixelmeow: Well, COPS is on, time to run…

BPRAL22169: I’d certainly run…

Pixelmeow: time for my tv fix for the week…

Pixelmeow: :-)

Paradis401: Now Olivier was pretty. To Olivier.

Smn Jester: Never mix anything with Guiness unless you want to get really drunk… *S*

AGplusone: I felt that, although I wondered whether the source for some of the comments might have been someone found in the cast of Destination Moon

Paradis401: Bye Pixel.

Pixelmeow: Champagne is good with Guinness…

pakgwei: pretty boys on COPS pixel? :-)

AGplusone: John Archer was a handsome man

Pixelmeow: You guys!!!

AGplusone: and his daughter, yum…..

BPRAL22169: Have fun, y’all.

BPRAL22169: I’m outta here.

AGplusone: we shall ….

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Pixelmeow: You too, bye!!!

SAcademy: Nite, all.

Paradis401: Bye Bill

Pixelmeow: Later all!

Pixelmeow has left the room.

SAcademy has left the room.

JJ Brannon: Night.

AGplusone: Got log, Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Got it except for the part I missed. and I gather someone is sending me that part.

AGplusone: Kultsi …

Paradis401: I will email mine to both Davids as an html, right?

DavidWrightSr: Great. will have it out tomorrow evening late.

AGplusone: I don’t have it either … I can send you what little I had before you arrived.

AGplusone: text is good too, Denis

DavidWrightSr: HTML is find. I convert it to txt.

DavidWrightSr: But I save the original HTML logs

Paradis401: OK will do.

JJ Brannon has left the room.

AGplusone: Denis, btw, I need your phone number

AGplusone: could you e mail it to me, please.

AGplusone: knew I was going to be late and couldn’t call either you or Dave

Smn Jester: Well, I said I would sit and watch hockey with my fiance, so I’m out of here. It was fun.

AGplusone: Thanks for coming, John\

Paradis401: I’ll include it with my email. In Jan Ill send the Louisville info.

AGplusone: Okay, Denis, thanks

DavidWrightSr: Enjoyed having you here. Y’all come back.

AGplusone: g’nite from New York, David

DavidWrightSr: Nite Chet

AGplusone: And ‘good night for NBC’

Smn Jester has left the room.

AGplusone has left the room.

pakgwei has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 8:07 P.M. EST.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 11-29-2001 9:00 P.M. EST ‘Pretty Boys’ in Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 11-29-2001 9:00 P.M. EST

‘Pretty Boys’ in Heinlein

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
NOTICE OF MEETING

THE ROBERT A. HEINLEIN READING GROUP

Dates and times: Thursday, November 29, 2001, 9 PM to midnight, EST; and Saturday, December 1,2001, 5 to 8 PM, EST

[Note: this is three, NOT two weeks off, to avoid the American Thanksgiving Holiday.]

Chat Co-host:Denis Paradis [AIM screen name: “Paradis401”]

Place: On line in AIM chartroom “Heinlein Readers Group chat”

See, the instructions on David Wright, Sr.’s page for downloading, installing and using AIM software, at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

Theme:”Pretty Boys in Heinlein stories”

Readings:Initially, the novel _Double Star_, but I’d be prepared for several others. Additional suggested reading: Heinlein’s forward to Theodore Sturgeon’s _Godbody_ and the novel itself.

The next RAH-AIM chat will explore a theme dealing with characterization.

Consider this: frequently, on AFH and elsewhere, some have perceived a deficiency, an unrealism, perhaps, they suggest, in Robert Heinlein’s portrayal of lead feminine characters. Here’s a mild, early example of that criticism, from J. Lincoln Turner’s A Guide Through the Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein (Gryphon Books, Brooklyn, NY, 1989, at 17): ” … the prototypical Heinlein heroine has red hair, a good figure, contralto voice and is highly intelligent and deadly in combat. She also falls totally in love with the hero and becomes beholden to his wishes (nothing like having super woman under your spell!). Heinlein, at least until his last period, tended to be a real Boy Scout. Although the heroine offers herself to him, unconditionally and because he has exhibited the finest sort of heroism to deserve her, he insists on marriage and everlasting fidelity. Under the circumstances, I think that even taking into consideration the time it was written in, this was rather quaint.”

But consider this twist on the ‘quaintness’ of having Super Gal around: “I liked him, even on ten minutes acquaintance; he was the sort of big ugly-handsome galoot that women go for and men take orders from. He threaded his way gracefully through the room … ” and, then, contrast that description with this one: “Look at him. Ever see a rooster strutting through a barnyard? Sure, he’s the right size and shape and his skull looks a good bit like the Chief but there is nothing behind it. He’ll loose his nerve, blow his top, and give the whole thing away. He can’t play the part; he’s just a ham actor!”

Now, I ask you: which one turns out to be the Heinlein hero? The natural leader–and the original assessment is right on the button–he is one; or the fellow who first describes him for us, the “conceited rooster,” who confirms that unflattering assessment only a few pages later when he tells us, his daddy used to tell him: “Larry, you are too damned pretty! If you don’t get off your lazy duff and learn the business, you are going to spend fifteen years as a juvenile, under the mistaken impression that you are an actor then wind up selling candy in the lobby. Stupid and pretty are the two worst vices in show business and you’re _both_.”

Of course, this being a Heinlein novel, with the technique of ironic reversal constantly hanging in the background, the actor, the “Great Lorenzo,” is the hero, the pretty boy, of the 1956 novel Double Star, which won Heinlein’s first Hugo as best novel in 1957.

So there you have it, our theme, “Pretty Boys in Heinlein stories,” and I think we’ll find quite a few.

Among these, we might consider something else suggested by Denis Paradis, who will be our chat co-host and proposed this topic. Heinlein knew well and troubled himself in the last year of his life to write a forward for the posthumously published last novel of Theodore Sturgeon, _Godbody_ which some of us haven’t read, I’m sure. The forward is illuminating, and perhaps I’ll secure permission to reprint it in full here; but perhaps the novel Godbody itself may illuminate some thoughts on our theme. For those as I am who are not familiar with the Sturgeon novel, having three weeks’ time before our meetings to consider reading it, I republish here, with the author’s permission, a thoughtful and thought-provoking review of it:

from Novels by Sturgeon, reviewed by Eric Weeks, at

http://glinda.lrsm.upenn.edu/~weeks/if/tedrev.html

December 9, 1999

“Godbody” by Theodore Sturgeon, Donald I Fine Inc, 1986.

“This was Sturgeon’s last book, published posthumously, which he spent over ten years working on. My impression is that he considered this his most important novel. The basic gist of the book is that love is important, that sex is an important way to express love (but not the only way), that through love (and sex) one can find religion, and that perhaps modern organized religion is not the proper way to find religion. The book is told in eight chapters, each chapter told from the perspective of a different character.

“Godbody, a man, has come to a small rural town. He is some sort of messiah, and the people he interacts with have their lives changed by him: they realize the important messages mentioned above. For two characters, who are happy, married, and in love, Godbody’s messages makes their marriage even better. For several unhappy characters, they learn how they can be happier. There are also two enemies of Godbody, two older people who control the town through a quiet system of blackmail, who see Godbody as a threat to their interests. Willa Mayhew writes the newspaper’s gossip column, and by threatening to reveal the secrets she knows, forces people to live according to her narrow-minded view of right and wrong. Andrew Merriweather is the town banker, who works with Willa to enforce his view of right and wrong, and make money in the process. These two characters are similar to characters seen in many other of Sturgeon’s stories; they are extremely sexually repressed. In this book, it is clear that all of their evilness flows from this.

“That’s my one main objection to this book, that being sexually repressed is seen as such an overriding flaw. This is Sturgeon’s one gripe with organized religion, that it acts to repress us sexually (and this stifles love, even in a marriage, according to Sturgeon). This is a theme in a lot of Sturgeon’s writing — that the human race has some harmful ideas of right and wrong, when it comes to sexuality, and that much of these ideas comes from organized religion. (I should point out that he’s not against religion in general; one of the characters in this book is a minister, who eventually turns against organized religion, but remains religious nonetheless.) The message of Godbody boils down to sex is love is religion; I am not sure I agree that sexually unpressed people are also automatically good people.

“Godbody is one of Sturgeon’s best books in terms of characterization. Each chapter is told first-person from a different viewpoint, and this technique is handled exquisitely. It is hard in a 160 page novel to get to know eight characters well, and Sturgeon pulls it off. The one character we never really know well is Godbody, although perhaps he is known more through the effect he has on the other characters. However, unlike Some of Your Blood, this book isn’t about characters (or plot) as much as it is about message. It’s hard to say much else about this book, other than it’s a fitting final work of Sturgeon. If you read this book, you will see some of Sturgeon’s best characterization, and get the full impact of what Sturgeon feels about love and how important love is. For anyone who is a fan of Sturgeon’s writing, this is a must-read 4 star book, more so than anything else he has written. Apart from that, I’d say it’s a 3 star book that is perhaps a little overwhelmed by its message.”

* * * * *

A further note of interest: Sturgeon’s true name was Edward Hamilton Waldo. Haven’t we seen at least two of those names applied to Heinlein characters? What about Waldo? Didn’t he, at least, become in a manner of speaking, a “pretty boy”?

I’m looking forward to a long list of replies on this new topic of discussion and some good chats! See you all here, and in slightly less than three weeks.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

I noted, concerning The Great Lorenzo:

>Of course, this being a Heinlein novel, with the technique of
>ironic reversal constantly hanging in the background, the actor,
>the “Great Lorenzo,” is the hero, the pretty boy, of the 1956
>novel Double Star, which won Heinlein’s first Hugo as best novel
>in 1957.

While thinking about that, consider these ramblings:

This is one of my ‘brief’ essays. Caveat lector. I have a few musings while the topic, “Pretty Boys in Heinlein stories,” shapes itself in our minds:

‘Pretty boy,’ at least when applied by males to males, isn’t a compliment, today. It, and like terms, are insults. Why is that?

In Robert A. Heinlein’s first published work, the short story “Line-Line” (1939), an example appears of a certain Doctor Van RhineSmitt, “America’s Handsomest University President,” by which the author gives us the recognizable portrait of a talking head, fifty years before the term came into current usage, who in exchange for the promise by a person powerful in the insurance industry to contribute funds to build a swimming pool (teaching swimming at university level is conscious irony), does his best to discredit Pinero’s insurance industry-destroying invention before the scientific community. That community, of course, is immediately disposed to follow the “good sense and persuasive personality” of this pretty spokesman.

Maybe the reason for this is as simple as the maxim: “Pretty is as pretty does,” an assessment of bottom line result, or a realization that life’s valid accomplishments often sullies perfect standards of physical appearance.

Heinlein did, however, write a story about a hero “handsome of face and figure.” He wrote the 1963 Glory Road in an atypical form for him, the popular sword and sorcery fantasy, which enjoyed a burst of sustained popularity beginning in the early 1960s, as Professor J.R.R. Tolkein’s romances gathered popularity and dungeons and dragons games grew from mere fad to rave among collegiate and other young readers of science-fiction.

An interlude is necessary here. The sword and sorcery form follow literary conventions going all the way back to the eleventh and twelfth centuries – the chivalric ideals of the upper classes, a social experiment introduced in the southwest of medieval France by a royal bride, Countess Marie of Champagne, the daughter of Louis VII of France and his then bride, Eleanor of Aquitane, as she is called in the English histories, or even farther back into mythic history, involving godlike beings.

These social notions of late medieval French aristocracy portrayed heroes as they fain would have them be, not as the butchers and cutthroats and conniving schemers actual chronicles of the time reveal. They were portrayed in romances really written as propaganda to convert her court and others by Countess Marie’s own bard, Crétien de Troyes, the best known of old French poets and author of those Arthurian romances, reconstituted from the oral Keltic Welsh and Breton myth, that have survived, stories of Gawain, Yvain, Erec, Lancelot, and Perceval.

As Marie’s poet portrayed them, both noble men and women lived in conformity with the rules of courtesy, where truth was told, where generosity was open-handed, where the weak and innocent were protected by men who dedicated themselves to the cult of honor and the quest of spotless reputation. Honor and love combined to engage the attention of this aristocratic society; these were its religion in a far more real sense than that taught by the Church of the time. Perfection was attainable under this code: for example, Gawain was a perfect knight. So too was perfect love: the passionate love of Tristran for Iseut, of Lancelot for Guinevere, of Clingés for Fenice, all delighted the audience, even though some, if not all of these alliances, were irreconcilably immoral under the standards taught by the medieval Church.

The perfection sought, and in some cases achieved, by these heroes portrayed by Crétien was physical perfection as well as moral. E.g., from the description of Erec, the heroic knight of Erec et Enide: “Of all the knights that ever were there, never one received such praise; and he was so fair that nowhere in the world need one seek a fairer knight than he. He was very fair, brave, and courteous, though not yet twenty-five years of age.”

This fair description of form and figure quickly becomes a norm of western literature of the age. See, e.g., Chaucer’s description of the aspirant hero, the Squire in the Prologue of the Canterbury Tales: “With him ther was his sone, a young Squyer // A lovyere, and a lusty bacheler, // With lokkes crulle, as they were leyd in presse, // Of twenty yeer of age he was, I gesse.” Still in training, he waits upon and accompanies his father, of course, who “was a verray, parfit, gentil knight,” and is in great detail portrayed as a veteran hero, “At Alisaundre he was whan it was wonne; // Ful ofte tyme he hadde the bord bigonne // Aboven alle naciouns in Pruce. // . . .” and so on for fifteen more lines listing his campaign ribbons.

Heinlein wrote Glory Road, however, as a Cabellian satire, so let’s see where that takes us.

Consider the case of the Gordon boy who learned to fight before he learned to read because his father, proud of two ancestors, hung the pretty names Evelyn and Cyril on him, two likely names for our pilgrims, the “perfect, gentile knight” and his son.

Is he “handsome of face and figure” as advertised for? That depends on whether Star’s opinion “You are beautiful” outweighs evidence to the contrary such as: ” … I knew I was going home as soon as my face healed (little brown brother hadn’t sterilized his bolo) …” offset by “I was a hundred and ninety pounds of muscle and no fat” which enabled Evelyn Cyril (aka “Flash”) Gordon to finish his high school “senior season with the California Central Valley secondary school record for yards gained and a broken nose.” And a scholarship to a cow college with a football team that also grants engineering degrees, even to those who only “sweep the gym” and carry oblate spheroids on Saturday to delight the crowds, provided they complete successfully the course work.

Oscar’s opinion is to the contrary. He cynically deems handsome men possibly hermaphrodites.

We’ve observed, in earlier chats, something significant about physical description in the juvenile novels: there isn’t much. That lack makes the lead characters more empathetic to juvenile readers. Perhaps it was easier for adolescents to relate to “manly little chaps” such as Thomas Hughes’ Tom Brown a century earlier, children weren’t as exposed to cynicism, perhaps not; but by 1947, too many years of youthful comedians portraying the fop, the weakling, and the teacher’s pet, had poisoned the ‘fair of face and figure’ as portrayed by handsome young actors such as Freddie Bartholomew (who played manly little Tom Brown in a movie made in the 1930s) for adolescent tastes. [I always hoped they’d drop him into that fire.]

Also, a non-descript character makes an important point to many adolescent readers — appearance may not be that important, a point, which judging from the inordinate emphasis devoted to appearance in media directed at teens apparently from inception of the popular media, requires continued restatement. I can remember on the back of virtually ever comic book I saw from age five or so onward, during the 1940s, an advertisement for a brand of salve for boys that supposedly kept pimples off. If it wasn’t, there would be ads to remove pimples or the dreaded “blackhead” with what looked like a miniature post-hole digger. That, by itself, was incentive enough to keep my face well-washed. Or there would appear the Charles Atlas ads – telling us how easy it would be to grow our bodies from 97-pound weaklings into bully-proof powerhouses surrounded by beautiful, loyal girlfriends, never fearing sand kicked in our faces.

I can only imagine how pervasive such advertisements were in girls’ magazines — real boys during the 1940s and 50s didn’t even glance at them lest they be suspected of being hermaphrodites (and I was certain to insure at that age no one would dream of considering me less than a ‘real boy’). But, consider in Heinlein’s “Puddin'” stories how much time he devoted to her adolescent plumpness which, her mother keeps assuring her, she’ll outgrow.

In contrast, I can think of only one mention in a Heinlein juvenile dealing with appearance of a male protagonist. When Max Jones in Starman Jones is being prepared by Sam Anderson to be smuggled aboard a starship as part of its crew, Anderson takes him to an artist who modifies his appearance to make him less the pretty young boy, less likely to attract attention.

So bearing in mind the difference in primary intended audience and approach between the juvenile and adult Heinlein stories, and noting the ironies so often present as satire or otherwise in the adult stories, what’s going on when Heinlein does create and emphasizes a fair male appearance, generally, in the adult stories? Are there specific stories in which what may be occurring isn’t the general derogatory purpose? E.g., what about Larry Smith? what about Oscar? what about Galahad, what about Valentine Michael Smith? Aren’t all four of these portrayed as pretty boys? Why?

Any ideas? Do you note exceptions to what this ‘short’ essay suggests?


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

David–FWIW the university I attended in the late sixties had a swimming requirement. If you couldn’t swim the length of the pool, you had to take a course. My daughter who graduated last year says her college had done away with the requirement several years ago–but they still teach swimming.

Jeanette–who remembers the 40’s style suits issued–black with gathers at the bust. The men’s building did not have swim suits in classes and I understand watching the scuba diving class heading toward the pool in full equipment was especially entertaining.
jeanette wrote:

>David–FWIW the university I attended in the late sixties had a swimming
>requirement. If you couldn’t swim the length of the pool, you had to
>take a course. My daughter who graduated last year says her college had
>done away with the requirement several years ago–but they still teach
>swimming.
>
>Jeanette–who remembers the 40’s style suits issued–black with gathers
>at the bust. The men’s building did not have swim suits in classes and
>I understand watching the scuba diving class heading toward the pool in
>full equipment was especially entertaining.

Indeed, many continue teach courses in swimming, bowling, fencing, and all sorts of physical activities; but isn’t that all at least secondary to a university education? Swimming isn’t quite necessary, unless of course the university is a ‘trade school’ devoted to sending its graduates ‘down to the sea in ships’ as Kings Point and Annapolis are?

I needed an odd unit to graduate from UCLA which was on a four unit per class quarter system then, since I brought three transfer units for something I picked up while in the Army, so I took one (1/2 unit) course in fencing, and one (1/2 unit) course in bowling; rather than another four unit academic course.

We both recognize, of course, the sacrifice of academic integrity by a university president for a swimming pool is irony, nevertheless. You and I would have hoped he’d have held out for a new wing to the library at least. Unless, of course, that university’s only claim to excellence then was its athletic programs … 😉


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

“David M. Silver” wrote:

>
>jeanette wrote:
>
>> David–FWIW the university I attended in the late sixties had a swimming
>> requirement. If you couldn’t swim the length of the pool, you had to
>> take a course. My daughter who graduated last year says her college had
>> done away with the requirement several years ago–but they still teach
>> swimming.
>>
>> Jeanette–who remembers the 40’s style suits issued–black with gathers
>> at the bust. The men’s building did not have swim suits in classes and
>> I understand watching the scuba diving class heading toward the pool in
>> full equipment was especially entertaining.
>
>Indeed, many continue teach courses in swimming, bowling, fencing, and all
>sorts of physical activities; but isn’t that all at least secondary to a
>university education? Swimming isn’t quite necessary, unless of course the
>university is a ‘trade school’ devoted to sending its graduates ‘down to
>the sea in ships’ as Kings Point and Annapolis are?
>
>I needed an odd unit to graduate from UCLA which was on a four unit per
>class quarter system then, since I brought three transfer units for
>something I picked up while in the Army, so I took one (1/2 unit) course in
>fencing, and one (1/2 unit) course in bowling; rather than another four
>unit academic course.
>
>We both recognize, of course, the sacrifice of academic integrity by a
>university president for a swimming pool is irony, nevertheless. You and I
>would have hoped he’d have held out for a new wing to the library at least.
>Unless, of course, that university’s only claim to excellence then was its
>athletic programs … 😉
> —
> David M. Silver

The only thing I consider strange is that you seem to consider fencing a nonacademic or nonuniversal subject. Yea, even unto an “elective.”


>^,,^< The more things change, the more they stay insane. http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/ I wrote: >we might consider something else suggested by Denis
>Paradis, who will be our chat co-host and proposed this topic.
>Heinlein knew well and troubled himself in the last year of his
>life to write a forward for the posthumously published last novel
>of Theodore Sturgeon, _Godbody_ which some of us haven’t read,
>I’m sure. The forward is illuminating

And here it is, since I’m certain that to consider it for our purposes, educational, reprinting this part is fair use:

“The final novel by THEODORE STURGEON titled *Godbody* was published in 1986 with an Introduction by Robert A. Heinlein [an excerpt of which follows]:

“GODBODY –
“The Last of the Wine.”
“And the best.

“Sometimes (not often) the last work of an artist, published after his death,
is the capstone of his art, summing up what
he had been telling the world all his life. In writing *Godbody* Theodore
Sturgeon achieved his crowning statement.

“Again and again for half a century he has given us one message. In *Godbody*
he tells us still again, and even more
emphatically, the same timeless message that runs through all his writings and
through all his living acts – a message
that was ancient before he was born but which he made his own, then spoke it
and sang it and shouted it and sometimes
scolded us with it:

‘”Love one another.”
Simple. Ancient. Difficult.
Seldom attained.

“Mark Twain said that the difference between the right word and almost the
right word was the difference between
lightning and a lightning bug.

“Sturgeon did not deal in lightning bugs.

“*Godbody* – Forget about art and enjoy it.

“Some readers will feel that it is XXX-rated pornography. They will have
plenty to go on. Others will see it as a tender,
gentle love story. They’ll be right.

“Many will find it offensively coarse in language (people of my generation,
especially). It does contain every one of the
“seven words that must never be used on television,” plus four or five more
that can’t be used but never got on the
verboten list.

“Others will see that Ted has always used the exact word – always “lightning,”
never “lightning bug.” Those four-letter
shockers are essential.

“Some will complain that *Godbody* is loaded with sex and violence.

“Others may answer that “Hamlet” (“Romeo and Juliet,” the Old Testament, *Le
Morte d’Arthur*) is nothing but sex and
violence.

“Some will denounce *Godbody* as baldly sacrilegious. They’ll be right.

“Some will see it as tenderly and beautifully reverent. And they will be
right.

“Others will say, “Yes it’s a great story. But why did he have to stick so
much nudity into it?”

“I’ll answer that one myself, since it is too late to ask Sturgeon. God must
love skin since he makes so much of it.
Covering it with cloth or leather or fur in the name of “decency” is a vice
thought up by dirty old men; don’t blame it on
God.

“Never mind what anyone says about this book. Read it, enjoy it, reread it,
give it to someone you love. It is our last love
letter from a man who loves all of us. Make the most of it today. Then keep it
for a day when you are downhearted and
need what it gives you.

“And don’t be afraid to love.

“[Robert A. Heinlein – September, 1985] ”

How that ties into the theme “pretty boys in Heinlein” is as mysterious to me as you, I think. But Denis thinks it does, so since he asked me to post the Godbody forward, I’ve done so.

How do you think it may? Anybody? Any Godbody fan out there?


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

agplusone@aol.com (David M. Silver) wrote in message news:…

>I wrote:
>
>> we might consider something else suggested by Denis
>>Paradis, who will be our chat co-host and proposed this topic.
>>Heinlein knew well and troubled himself in the last year of his
>>life to write a forward for the posthumously published last novel
>>of Theodore Sturgeon, _Godbody_ which some of us haven’t read,
>>I’m sure. The forward is illuminating
>
>And here it is, since I’m certain that to consider it for our purposes,
>educational, reprinting this part is fair use:
>
>”The final novel by THEODORE STURGEON titled *Godbody* was published in 1986
>with an Introduction by Robert A.
>Heinlein [an excerpt of which follows]:
>
>”GODBODY –

I’m sorry David – I should have made my comments clearer: In his Introduction to GODBODY, Robert described the science-fiction writers who met at his apartment in Philadelphia in 1944: “At my request Campbell brought Sturgeon there. My first impression of Sturgeon was that no male had any business being that pretty. He was a golden boy, one that caused comparisons with Michelangelo’s David… He had a crown of golden curls, classic features and a sweet, permanent smile.”

When I first read this I wondered to myself if Theodore Sturgeon might not have served as an inspiration for the character of Michael Valentine Smith in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND and/or Galahad in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE. Perhaps Mrs. Heinlein may be able to shed some light on this at our meeting.
Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evening, David … or Kyrie elison!

Paradis401 has entered the room.

AGplusone: evening, Denis

Paradis401: Hey David

AGplusone: I’m watching the news for the next hour. We’re early.

AGplusone: ‘course my rubber duck just fell behind the monitor and I’ve got to go get it

Paradis401: Yes, I came on early to make sure I could get in. I will minimize for awhile. Everything all set?

AGplusone: yeah, ‘cept I can’t see where my rubber duck fell

Paradis401: In my lab we had a little pig you could squeeze. Long Story.

AGplusone: All Mac users have rubber ducks or somethin’ on top their monitors … so you can tell the difference.

Paradis401: One of these days I’ll have to learn more about Mac

AGplusone: found it! Bounced behind the wastebasket

Paradis401: Take good care of the little guy!

AGplusone: mine arrived one day when I beta tested for Norton once time.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Guys. My son was using the computer to catch up on his mail.

AGplusone: says www.symantec.com across the chest.

AGplusone: Hi, Dave.

Paradis401: Sounds interesting.

AGplusone: remotely better than “Live free or die!” for a rubber duck

Paradis401: Hi David W

DavidWrightSr: I’m running Norton scan right now on my computer, just to check.

Paradis401: I like Norton very much but my version 2000 is not compatible with Windows ME.

AGplusone: Hope they upgrade it quickly: Norton took forever when Mac went to OS 8 … a lot of us wound up with Virex running instead.

DavidWrightSr: I’m running 98 at the moment, although I now have XP on alternate boot

AGplusone: Virex = MacAfee

Paradis401: I guess I’ll have to get a new version for both ME and XP

DavidWrightSr: I may have to jump at a moment’s notice. Storms appear to be moving in.

SAcademy has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ginny

SAcademy: Thank you

Paradis401: Hello Ginny!

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny

SAcademy: Hello all.

AGplusone: I’ve been trying to use the mail merge feature in Word for labels … for the first time.

AGplusone: Anyone use it?

SAcademy: No.

SAcademy: I bet Bill would know how.

LadyS122 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Haven’t used mail merge in years and never in Word.

LadyS122: I forgot it was Thursday.. don’t usually get online in the evening

AGplusone: I think Bill Gates has subcontracted out manual writing to the Japanese. Hi, Lady … do you use Word?

LadyS122: yes, but not mail in it

AGplusone: I trying to print labels from a data base …

AGplusone: haven’t worked at it hard, but it isn’t doing what it’s supposed to yet

DavidWrightSr: What is your database?

LadyS122: what is it doing?

AGplusone: Word document

LadyS122: Tony is here.. says he always had problems doing it

DavidWrightSr: Lady, can you click on Bold please?

AGplusone: doin’ nuthin’ just sits there and the mergemenu never gives me a highlighted button to click

LadyS122: Sorry about that.. haven’t been in one of these chats for a long time. :-)

SAcademy: :-)

AGplusone: Working fine now!

LadyS122: what’s the subject tonight.. I’m behind on my newsgroup reading too. :-) (I am behind on everything)

DavidWrightSr: The Hurrieder I go, the Behinder I get :-)

AGplusone: How’s Tony doing, Stephanie.

AGplusone: [did I guess correctly?]

LadyS122: He is fine, Steph is alright as well.. so are the grandkids.. (I am the youngest grandma I know )

LadyS122: and yes you did

Paradis401: Pretty Boys is the subject.

AGplusone: Okay, gotcha!

LadyS122: ok.. I think I remember reading about that

LadyS122: I am Tony’s wife.. not his daughter. :-)

AGplusone: yeah, but we’re really early, unless I have a clock running an hour behind.

LadyS122: I have 7central

AGplusone: 5:09:56 PM PST

DavidWrightSr: Nope, we are early birds.

Paradis401: Something for the ladies. Yes. We’re all early. Sellout crowd?

AGplusone: HopeSo

LadyS122: good.. I would go cram but I haven’t gotten all the books organized yet, so the pretty boys are scattered around our library/guest room

LadyS122: I dunno.. I like some of the rougher cut gentlemen in the books. :-) Lazarus may be an ass (professional grade) most of thee time, but as the Heinlein women note, he is a loveable one. :-)

AGplusone: SAcademy: REally? I don’t like him

LadyS122: actually.. I was doing some reading today and was wondering whether anyone knew if Heinlein ever mentioned basing characters (actions if not the whole character) on female pirates.

LadyS122: Lazarus has his moments..

AGplusone: which one Lady?

joelrmpls has entered the room.

Paradis401: Hazel Stone a Pirate of sorts?

AGplusone: Evening, Joel.

SAcademy: Hello, Joel.

joelrmpls: Am I here?

DavidWrightSr: You are in, Please click Bold

SAcademy: Pinch yourself and see.

LadyS122: Grace O’Malley.. her legend has a situation similar to Hazel in MiaHM.. where she goes leaping for a bad guy who is about to kill her father (father figure type in Hazel’s situation)

joelrmpls: AApparently I am. Hi, all.

Paradis401: Hi. Joel

DavidWrightSr: Welcome

AGplusone: No, you’re still in Minneapolis, but if one close your eyes and we clap our hands hard enough …

LadyS122: hehehehe

joelrmpls: Sorry about the fonts; I’m on GAIM, rather than AIM, and the font stuff is a bit more complicated.

AGplusone: you close

SAcademy: Yes, how is the weather there?

SAcademy: Ten feet of snow?

DavidWrightSr: Actually, I am here, but I am not sure about all of the rest of you :-)

LadyS122: I know I am in bed dreaming about all this

joelrmpls: Thirties or so. Quite comfortable, for me. But I carry a fair amount of insulation. No more than four, five inches of snow in the metro area, although some outlying places got close to three feet.

Paradis401: Please God – don’t send it to Michigan!

AGplusone: It even rained in southern California this morning …

LadyS122: I have determined that the last 6 years of my life have been a dream, and I haven’t woken up yet

DavidWrightSr: I interviewed with Control Data in the 70’s. It was 8 degrees and a foot of snow.

joelrmpls: But I hear it never rains in Southern California . . .

LadyS122: but it pours

AGplusone: yeah, it snows (really)

AGplusone: in 1948 …

LadyS122: my mom wasn’t even alive yet. :-)

joelrmpls: Me, I like cold better than head. I can dress for heat, but even if I walked around naked — a horrible thought — I’d not be comfortable at 90 degrees, here.

AGplusone: LOL

AGplusone: I read about it in My Weekly Reader (from Cleveland). We had ten feet of snow that year.

joelrmpls: I just finished reworking the blizzard scene in the new book last week, and this reality is mild by comparison.

Paradis401: Title of your new book, Joel?

AGplusone: Good. Mail the proof off before it gets so much worse you’re compelled to rewrite.

joelrmpls: Home Front. And yes, it went off to my agent last Friday.

SAcademy: Editors always change titles anyway.

Paradis401: Thanks. Hope it comes out soon.

joelrmpls: Now all I’ve got to do is finish up the rewrite of the new Guardians book, and I can start the new murder mystery, which I think/hope is going to be fun. And me, too — although I haven’t yet discussed pubdate with my editor.

AGplusone: What’s the Guardians called … haven’t been to your site recently.

joelrmpls: Well, Ginny, we already changed the title — and she agreed to this one. The title did need changing.

joelrmpls: Not Really the Prisoner of Zenda

SAcademy: We submitted The Brass Cannon and it turned into Harsh Mistress.

AGplusone: That business about the earrings, Ginny, I never knew that was based on Marines … and never heard the story about WW 2. You know everytime you write one of those you force me to go buy a classic I read years ago.

AGplusone: Altho I can download it too

SAcademy: I am sorry. I don’t mean to.

LadyS122: hate to be a pain, but to repeat. :-) the pirates name was Grace O’Malley..

AGplusone: Grace O’Malley!!!

SAcademy: Well, Jim backed me up

LadyS122: seemed like a scene in TMiaHM was similar to a reported event in O’Malley’s life

LadyS122: a friend of mine is trying to find a pirate

joelrmpls: I had never heard of it, either — and it’s way cool.

AGplusone: referring to ‘force’ meant Joel makes me go buy one …

LadyS122: pirate’s name to use if she is able to join a club I am in

joelrmpls: :-)

AGplusone: I think my uncle will too … if I write him. Haven’t had a good reason to write in years.

joelrmpls: “*Ching!* Ring up another one, Jocko.”

LadyS122: We all use the names of pirates (historical or fiction) and throw a party at a con I go to..

AGplusone: You ought to get a royalty from them.

joelrmpls: Although obviously, David, you don’t get to buy your own copy of the murder mystery.

AGplusone: You better tell us about O’Malley or else …

AGplusone: thank you … ‘waiting is’ …

LadyS122: what about O’Malley? Seems she proved her salt when she leaped through the air at someone about to stab her father in the back, similar to how Hazel flew through the air to save (Manny?)

AGplusone: Hazel Meade

AGplusone: never heard of her tho …

AGplusone: until today

AGplusone: Errol Flynn obviously didn’ meet her

LadyS122: if I recall she was a pirate/Irish Chieftain in the 1500s

Paradis401: Chieftainess?

AGplusone: [Where’s the Con?]

AGplusone: [next thing you know I’ll be talking about a RAH memorial blood drive at it.]

SAcademy: What con–Con-scious?

LadyS122: Magnum Opus Con in Atlanta.. We are the Dead Pirates (I hope no one is offended, most of the historical names were taken so a good friend of mine and I adopted the names of the Space pirate wanna-be’s Lapis Lazuli and Lorelei Lee

LadyS122: Long

AGplusone: Wonderful! Dave, you can go meet her as Castor or Pollux … one or ‘tother.

LadyS122: heheheheehehehe

DavidWrightSr: I try to stay out of Atlanta as much as possible :-)

LadyS122: my friend and I even have matching costumes

AGplusone: Well, they have Bucconeer there … sounds appropriate.

LadyS122: although due to phsyique problems, we opted for historical rather than literary..

DavidWrightSr: If they are the ones the twins wore at the dinner, I’ll be there, but those werent pirate costumes :-)

AGplusone: Was Atlanta founded by Jean Lafite?

LadyS122: MOC is for fans to just have a good time for a few days twice a year.. hoping to one day be able to afford big guests again.

CHASGRAFT has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Charles. ltnc

DavidWrightSr: Atlanta was founded by a railroad stopping there, Originally called ‘Terminus’

CHASGRAFT: Howdy. Can’t stay too long; work coming up.

SAcademy: Easty to see why they changed the name.

AGplusone: nuther funny story … the IAM was founded there, meeting secretly in a roundhouse, using quasi-Masonic ritual back then.

joelrmpls: Even easier to see why St. Paul MN changed its original name.

DavidWrightSr: Yep, didn’t have much oomph

DavidWrightSr: What was that Joel?

joelrmpls: “Pig’s Eye Landing”

LadyS122: hehhehehehehehehe

AGplusone: As in … you’ll be landing here again in a ‘Pig’s eye’?

joelrmpls: Pig’s Eye only remains as the name of a particularly good, inexpensive, local beer.

AGplusone: Send some to Robert Crais. He’ll have Elvis drinking it in his next book.

joelrmpls: A missionary priest wanted to get people to move there — and he figured that getting folks to move to Pig’s Eye Landing wasn’t a good bet. So he up and changed the name.

AGplusone: We’re all a little early, Charles. Topic: Pretty boys in RAH”

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of Crais. I never did hear from him about my invitation to join us. I did hear from Connie Willis, but she had trouble with AIM and never got back to me after that

AGplusone: Crais asked me to write him after he got back off his book tour, ending this week.

AGplusone: We got along nicely. Gave him a copy of THJ …

joelrmpls: Never met him, but I’ve heard he’s a nice guy.

AGplusone: I think his tour was cut short though … he is, Joel. Very nice.

AGplusone: And quite elated. He’d sold his last non-Elvis to Bruce Willis.

AGplusone: But I really want to meet that black cat …

AGplusone: if it’s still around.

CHASGRAFT: Pretty boys. Galahad is the first one that comes to mind…..

SAcademy: That’s what I said, too.

DavidWrightSr: Lorenzo claimed his father said that he was too pretty and stupid :-)

CHASGRAFT: True.

SAcademy: Denis, which character did you have in mind?

Paradis401: Ginny, don’t you think Robert was the first Pretty Boy.? His early photos that you put in Grumbles.

AGplusone: Galahad first appears as a gender identification trick by RAH … we think the two nurses are male and female but find out we’re wrong about which is which …

DavidWrightSr: Marie called Ted Bronson ‘pretty’, but she was only 8 :-)

Paradis401: My first thoughts about Pretty Boys was Robert’s description of Sturgeon in Godbody and that reminded me of Mike the Martian.

LadyS122: his genes sure made pretty girls anyway. :-)

AGplusone: And of course, it’s Ishtar who says he’s ‘pretty’

AGplusone: And Ishtar’s a big girl.

SAcademy: Ted didn’t continue pretty. He grew a beard and had his hair long.

AGplusone: Williamson introduced them when, during WW2, in about ’45?

DavidWrightSr: I seem to recall Justin saying something about his ‘beauty’, but he said that in the presence of a ‘pretty’ guy and a girl, he would be looking at the girl.

AGplusone: But there’s a photo of Ted, Ginny, on the website I dug that review of Godbody up from that shows him older, beard trimmed, and still very ‘handsome’ …

AGplusone: if not pretty.

SAcademy: Well, maybe pretty is as pretty does.

CHASGRAFT: Edward G. Robinson often wondered how he could have done with more conventional looks.

Paradis401: Robert says it was Campbell who introduced him in Philly in 1944. And Robert said “Pretty”.

AGplusone: Reason I wonder about the date, of course, is the fact that “Waldo” is very pretty at the end, and Sturgeon’s name of course was Edward Hamilton Waldo, but “Waldo” was written earlier, iirc … ’41?

SAcademy: Yes, around 42.

SAcademy: It was written before R. went to work at NAES.

AGplusone: So my question is: how popular and well know was Sturgeon, er, Waldo, and how well know was his physical beauty?

Paradis401: Did you meet Ted in Philly too around that time, Ginny?

SAcademy: No, I met him much later on.

SAcademy: Some time in the 50’s I think.

AGplusone: Because ‘beauty’ is something the original Waldo, in the book, definitely doesn’t have …

AGplusone: not angelic beauty anyway

SAcademy: I don’t think that Robert knew Ted when he wrote Waldo

Paradis401: Do you know if Robert ever based any charter on Sturgeon, Ginny?

AGplusone: Bill says “Waldo” is also a suburb of Kansas City

Paradis401: character

SAcademy: I don’t think R. used Ted as a character.

AGplusone: but ‘pretty’ seems to have something to do with character in the story “Waldo” doesn’t it seem?

SAcademy: Maybe that’s where the name came from.,

David.

AGplusone: very likely

SAcademy: Any other pretty ones, Denis?

AGplusone: We watch Waldo change from a very malign blimp, angry at everything, to the beautiful or pretty man at the end (or the beginning of the story) …

DavidWrightSr: But the major change was internal.

Paradis401: Well somebody mentioned Gordon.

AGplusone: but dramatically manifested

AGplusone: Dickson, of course?

Paradis401: Glory Road with Star.

SAcademy: Was Scar Gordon a “poretty boy”?

DavidWrightSr: I was reminded of that ballet description later when I read in one of Robert’s stories about Nijinsky.

AGplusone: yes … and the description in “Man Who Sold … ” of potential ballets on the moon

SAcademy: Snowy’s name is Nijinski.

CHASGRAFT: I alwasy pictured Gordon as the rugged type rather than pretty.

Paradis401: No not Gordon Dickson. Dickson reminded me of a hockey player I once knew.

AGplusone: as well as Holly’s story in “Menace from the Earth”

CHASGRAFT: Though I believe Star cals him pretty at one point.

Paradis401: Yes she does.

AGplusone: ‘handsome of face and figure’ as advertised for

AGplusone: except for the scar and the broken nose …

AGplusone: which distinguish him from the hermophidite in his mind anyway …

Paradis401: Some of the characters in the juveniles are described as pretty/handsome by the heroines but I can’t remember which.

SAcademy: Pee Wee?

Paradis401: Yeah, sounds right for one. In Podkayne, right?

ddavitt has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.

SAcademy: No, Have Space Suit–Will Travel.

ddavitt: Hi, had a bit of trouble there

Paradis401: Howdy Jane.

AGplusone: When you write one of your medieval-type Guardian fantasies, Joel, how do you describe the handsomeness or ‘pretty’ problem of a male’s description? [hi, Jane!]

ddavitt: Had to change things around this week

SAcademy: Hello Jane. We started without you.

ddavitt: How dare you! :-):-)

ddavitt: What did I miss?

SAcademy: Someone send her a log.

AGplusone: How pretty are your ‘perfect, gentle knights’ is what I’m asking?

ddavitt: It’s OK, I’ll catch up

ddavitt: I see Karl as ruggedly handsome, not pretty

DavidWrightSr: Sent it

ddavitt: And getting lines and weatherbeaten as time goes by

AGplusone: And one of those later three characters has a face that could stop clocks …

ddavitt: Thanks; it’s all very new and techie on Netscape 6.2

Paradis401: The term handsome seems more appropriate but I suspect Robert used the word pretty to emphasize the classical beauty.

AGplusone: not even ‘ugly-handsome’ like Dak Broadbent

AGplusone: In Double Star, is Bonforte pretty (or handsome) … ?

Paradis401: Handsome. I think.

joelrmpls: I try to avoid the issue, as much as I can, I think.

CHASGRAFT: Gotta run. Enjoyed it. Bye.

CHASGRAFT has left the room.

AGplusone: ‘his skull’s the same shape as the boss’ as Jacques said … I think he’s classicly handsome, but older …

AGplusone: romantic heroes are supposed to be pretty … or handsome. Mike made himself so, deliberately

ddavitt: Is being pretty more of a handicap for a male or female character I wonder?

Paradis401: Heinlein himself was a very handsome man even at 70.. see Nebula Award photo from MidAmericon.

AGplusone: so he’d be more ‘in character’ with what the Rubes expected

ddavitt: Seems to me that it’s how people form their judgement of you initially

ddavitt: In a book, we make our own mind up of course but we can see how the other characters react to someone overendowed with good looks

ddavitt: Not generally positive reaction from one’s own sex…

AGplusone: And Heinlein is always using inversion in the adult novels … but he does get to having pretty heroes … eventually, e.g., Valentine Michael … perhaps Oscar, despite the scar and broken nose.

Paradis401: Whether we like it or not. Looks mean a great deal in lots of areas. Jobs, promotions, etc.

ddavitt: Is a writer being a Black hat when they curse a character with beauty?

AGplusone: And Waldo grows pretty just as Valentine Michael does

AGplusone: both dealing with forms of ‘grokking’ … ?

AGplusone: which change them?

AGplusone: the ‘inner beauty’ manifesting itself?

DavidWrightSr: Is the external change symbolic of the internal change as in Waldo?

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

Paradis401: Look how much being pretty (male or female) influences roles obtained in movies!

ddavitt: But isn’t that giving beauty too much significance?

AGplusone: I think it is … another metaphone, just as breaking down the rocks and fertilizing them is metaphore of Bill Leamer’s growth in Farmer in the Sky

AGplusone: metaphore

ddavitt: Should it matter? or do we just have to accept that it does?

Paradis401: Maybe it gives it too much emphaseis Jane. But it’s business and the way the world works – often.

AGplusone: but it fits the ‘feeling’ of the novel or story doesn’t it … an art?

ddavitt: Isn’t Waldo’s spiritual growth; his friends and happiness more important

AGplusone: Truth is beauty, beauty truth, that’s all you … etc.

ddavitt: Why does it need to be overlaid with physical characteristics as well?

Paradis401: I agree David. I think Robert said that many times.

LadyS122: why not…

AGplusone: Keats was a decent poet so long as he stayed away from Shelley

ddavitt: When I get old and wrinkly, am I less of a good person? I don’t think so. See the example of Jubal’s statue for confirmation

ddavitt: True beauty is all within

AGplusone: But Jubal sees the beauty of “She Who Was …” as the artist intended us to see.

Paradis401: You are correct Jane. But it doesn’t work that way. Unfortunately.

LadyS122: so we should hold it against people who are pretty on the outside?

DavidWrightSr: Got bumped

Paradis401: I think Ginny was and still is very beautiful. But she will disagree of course. Robert would agree.

DavidWrightSr: Lighting getting close. may have to drop. please save log from where i dropped and save in case I have to go

AGplusone: When Fraser in Magic Inc first goes to see the old witch … doesn’t he see the beauty in the old bag … which later we find ourselves was considerable when she takes him to Hades?

DavidWrightSr: Lightning

ddavitt: Sorry; got called away

AGplusone: Okay. I have back up.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

ddavitt: No, we shouldn’t judge at all; pretty people aren’t to balme for it, any more than ugly people are

ddavitt: blame

Paradis401: Right. Jane

AGplusone: Whereas … what about the ‘inner’ beauty of Mrs. Grew from Podkayne? Poddy thinks she sees it under the fat?

ddavitt: She saw the surface jolliness; Clark saw better

ddavitt: She was still not going deep enough

AGplusone: And Gildie shows lots of beauty, but doesn’t turn out to be the older sister Poddy wants either.

AGplusone: She’s got to go to work.

ddavitt: We are assuming that beauty is standard too but of course it’s not

LadyS122: everything is relative, especially beauty

ddavitt: It varies wildly between societies, eras…

AGplusone: But Oscar does turn out to be ‘fair of figure and face’ and eventually, ‘mind’ as well, doesn’t he?

ddavitt: I suppose some people have classic beauty that transcends that…but they are very rare

ddavitt: He’s a hero; he can have his cake and eat it:-)

AGplusone: But that’s life. We’re talking about how Heinlein portrayed beauty.

ddavitt: It compensates for low life expectancy

AGplusone: His ‘pretty boys’

AGplusone: Think of fat old Konski.

AGplusone: Or kettle belly

ddavitt: Mike deliberately got rid of his pretty face…

AGplusone: or Captain Eick?

AGplusone: or whatever his name was in “If this goes on …”

LadyS122: I think Heinlein had two layers.. there were the people who were physically beautiful (Galahad) then there were the ones who exuded such beauty in their attitude that they were beautiful too, regardless of phsyical appearance

LadyS122: the woman inthe brothel that Lazarus worked at

ddavitt: Tamara when she was old?

ddavitt: Olga!

Paradis401: Like Tamara as a classic example.

LadyS122: Wanted to say Tamara.. but wasn’t sure. :-)

AGplusone: Like “She Who Was … ” the statute by Rodin

ddavitt: Yes, ….the most beautiful of all to a blind man becasue of her voice and gentleness

LadyS122: been too long since I read the stuff

ddavitt: Sorry; I didn’t say hi btw; I’m jane

Paradis401: Robert made some deep points with the Tamara character.

LadyS122: I am Helen (Tony’s Wife and Stephanie’s sort of stepmom.. too young to feel comfortable with the title.. but I don’t mind bein a grandma to her kids )

ddavitt: She was sweet; shame she didn’t appear much on screen

ddavitt: Hi Helen, say hello to the family for me

AGplusone: How ‘beautiful’ can Maureen be, at sixty-five plus, after what, 13?, kids, having her affairs with old man Stone?

ddavitt: Simmons?

ddavitt: Nitpick

LadyS122: Tony says hi back.. can’t speak for Steph.. to many miles between us..

ddavitt: Thank you:-)

Paradis401: Maureen is forever beautiful.

AGplusone: Well, she is, but …

ddavitt: We expect good looks even if we don’t provide them ourselves; he was no oil painting either

AGplusone: the cosmetic techniques Mary Sperling uses aren’t yet that far advanced, are they?

ddavitt: How much did Deety’s appearance influence Zeb?

ddavitt: Lots, I’d say

AGplusone: Or vis-a-versa?

Paradis401: How about Zeb being Handsome/pretty?

AGplusone: “clean limbed fighting man from Virginia”

ddavitt: If she was little, skinny and plain, jake would have been erased by chapter 2

ddavitt: Ugly handsome galoot IIRC

AGplusone: Dak Broadbent, again?

AGplusone: Who is it, in “L’envoi” that Oscar looks like?

ddavitt: Georgette Heyer had a couple of types she used to use in rotation in her books; swarthy, dark of character, blond and rakish, small and appealing…she had labels for them. Zeb is one of those sort

ddavitt: Generic

ddavitt: Zeb

ddavitt: was Oscar

ddavitt: Star, Deety?

AGplusone: Well, then, Zeb’s pretty too, right?

Paradis401: Like Colin Campbell?

ddavitt: Colin isn’t pretty

LadyS122: I don’t know if he was a pretty boy, but he had clothes-sense

ddavitt: lavender, cerise and lime jump suits?

AGplusone: And also carried a sword cane …

ddavitt: heh

ddavitt: reminds me of Rufo commenting on oscar’s clothes

ddavitt: Aloha shirt and lederhosen, something like that

LadyS122: if his complexion was dark enough they would work.. went to school with a guy with a heavenly olive complexion.. pale yellow was a good color for him

LadyS122: if he had sense he would have worn more pastels, but in Junior high, you can’t expect a football jock to have much clothing sense. :-)

AGplusone: Galahad or Cyrano would probably wear lavender, cerise and lime too, given the chance.

SAcademy: Sleeping on keyboards isn’t good for them. So I will say goodnight.

ddavitt: well, Colin is fairly dark skinned..but that’s an old discussion

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: quite dark skinned

Paradis401: Night Ginny.

LadyS122: one I usually avoid…

ddavitt: Night Ginny; no leaves funny marks on your face.

AGplusone: G’nite Ginny

AGplusone: And so would the Squyre with his curly locks …

AGplusone: along with his pointed shoes …

joelrmpls: **Delurking* (Was called away to the phone….)

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Hope I wasn’t being rude.

ddavitt: Hi there.

AGplusone: [interruption: that CIA type who got killed is what Oscar’s career would have wound up as, absent Star]

AGplusone: Hi, JJ!

RMLWJ1 has entered the room.

JJ Brannon: Hmm, some familiar orthographies here.

ddavitt: Hi RML

RMLWJ1: Good evening, folks.

ddavitt: Shouldn’t we also look at how people see themselves?

AGplusone: Topic is ‘pretty boys in Heinlein’ … I can send a log … thus far.

Paradis401: Someone once said that Mick Jagger would be good to portray Michael Valentine way back when. I thought it was funny. Who would you ladies pick for the role today?

ddavitt: Deety is described by Zeb

JJ Brannon: Thanks, I’ll take you up on the offer.

AGplusone: Are you still on aol.com JJ?

ddavitt: As being beautiful but not knowing it

Bleys1959 has entered the room.

RMLWJ1: Hmm. David Bowie?

ddavitt: Becasue she has the regular features that praxiteles would like

JJ Brannon: Yep.

ddavitt: Was he a Grecian sculptor? Who made the statue come alive?

ddavitt: Or am i all confused ( not for the first time)

RMLWJ1: Yes.

AGplusone: RML, Bleys, I need your email addys for log if you wish

JJ Brannon: Galatea

JJ Brannon: was the statue.

RMLWJ1: Nike, also, as I recall.

ddavitt: Anyway, point is, she only gets that she’s pretty when she comes face to face with her twin, libby

Paradis401: The part for Mick as Michael V fell through as did making the movie.

JJ Brannon: My Fair Lady

ddavitt: So; does a hero who knows they’re good looking act diffently than one who doesn’t know it but the rest of the world does

ddavitt: They must do; which option did H take?

Paradis401: I wonder.

JJ Brannon: Praxiteles was a real sculptor ca. 400 BC.

AGplusone: send the email addys IM if you wish, or we’ll edit them out of the log, as you elect …

ddavitt: Not many of his charcters are obsessed with their looks; Poddy maybe but that goes with the territory

ddavitt: teenage girl, first big adventure, flirting etc

JJ Brannon: Teenage girl, you mean.

AGplusone: Holly is a little concerned, so do is Puddin’

AGplusone: all teenage girls

ddavitt: But they’re the same person in a way…

JJ Brannon: Same category,

DavidWrightSr: I need the addys too, if you are not already on my notification list

AGplusone: yes, developing along the way to Maureen Johnson

ddavitt: We have to stop this GMTAing:-)

RMLWJ1: lol

ddavitt: No way would they!

ddavitt: I do not feel they’re akin at all….

ddavitt: maureen was definitely unique..

ddavitt: not sure in a good way either

JJ Brannon: RAH saud straight out that he resurrected Puddin’

JJ Brannon: as Podkayne.

ddavitt: I know…but he was wrong

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: Puddin and Poddy have big differences IMHO

DavidWrightSr: What does an author know? :-)

ddavitt: Holly is in between…and none are like Mo as a teenager

ddavitt: You said it…

JJ Brannon: The proper question is: “What did RAH know and

JJ Brannon: would you argue with him?”

Paradis401: Not me. I wouldn’t dare argue with RAH. He was too often right.

ddavitt: Well, if we’d ever met I think it would have been a certainty once my vocal chords kicked in

ddavitt: Not many people I wouldn’t argue with

ddavitt: ask AG:-)

Paradis401: Jane. Really! Are you tempting me?

ddavitt: It’s what I’m good at

ddavitt:

Paradis401: 😀

ddavitt: Good smiley

AGplusone: I haven’t kicked your vocal chords in even once, …. yet

Paradis401: Dp you think Brad Pitt or Ryan Phillippe would be pretty enough to play Michael V or Galahad?

ddavitt: Heh. I’m not in awe of you David as I would have been with Heinlein. My vocal chords would have been like Lorenzos’ ; wild and free

LadyS122: Don’t forget Jude Law.. I think he is pretty more than handsome

LadyS122: might be a good Galahad..

ddavitt: Get james marsters in there and I’ll contribute money to fund it

Paradis401: Who is James Marsters?

LadyS122: oh yes… but he has to keep the fake accent… his California accent is just too plain. :-)

LadyS122: Spike on Buffy

Paradis401: Jude Law is a very good actor. Mature. I don’t know about pretty.

ddavitt: Did you see the last 2 episodes, drowns in drool pool in front of TV

ddavitt: Just won online People poll for sexiest man and sexiest actor.

LadyS122: Jane: we don’t get the episodes til Sunday, so only saw the one where Tara and Giles left…

ddavitt: Tabula Rasa

ddavitt: Oh well, I’ll say no more

LadyS122: Jane: You know he will be making an appearance on Andromeda possibly next week..

ddavitt: But how come you missed Smashed?

ddavitt: Saturday at 7.00 pm:-)

ddavitt: Thanks for the heads up

LadyS122: Jane:that’s alright.. I read the web pagbe so I know what’s coming

ddavitt: You’re not 2 weeks behind?

LadyS122: we see the Tuesday episode the following Sunday…

LadyS122: so we will see Amy come back this Sunday

ddavitt: So you should have seen Smashed last Sunday anbd Wrecked is this coming Sunday

LadyS122: I guess… Last Sunday was when Willow screwed up the memory loss spell

LadyS122: (we didn’t watch it til last night.. we record it)

ddavitt: I can’t work out how you’ve not seen Smashed but never mind

ddavitt: It is unbelievably steamy..I love dit

LadyS122: can we discuss this in private chat.. seems the room got quiet. :-)

ddavitt: But we are so off topic we will get shouted at any second now

ddavitt: GMTA

AGplusone: Any second

Paradis401: :-[

ddavitt: We’ll be good

ddavitt: It’s those darn casting threads; avoid them and we’ll be fine

LadyS122: now about Jude Law.. he always struck me as being too pretty’

Bleys1959: Marsters as Galahad…. i can picture it

LadyS122: but I have only really seen him in Gattaca… so he may have filled out some

RMLWJ1: Not familiar with him, myself.

ddavitt: Buffy is slightly on topic as there is a huge cross over with Heinlein fans

AGplusone: bleeeh

AGplusone: I missed most of the musical episode

ddavitt: The cut version is awful; need to see the full one to get the impact

AGplusone: did you videotape it?

ddavitt: Yes

ddavitt: I can try and tape it for you

ddavitt: We don’t have 2 VCR’s but a friend does

JJ Brannon: Had to check EB on GBS — Pygmalion.

AGplusone: Suggest, that as it’s 5 til we break for cat watering until 5 after, Denis?

LadyS122: what about Pygmalion? I did a research paper on it (and how it compared to My Fair Lady)

ddavitt: sff buffy group has lots of people from the sff heinlein groups; John Tilden and his wife, Eli hestermann, daffydd, me…

Paradis401: Sounds good. I need a coffee.

AGplusone: okay, Buffy fans, carry on …

LadyS122: I don’t read the buffy group.. too many messages..

AGplusone: afk

JJ Brannon: Must break longer. The Galatea reference earlier.

LadyS122: I have to puyt my kids to bed.. not sure I’ll be back in time…

LadyS122: will come back if I can.

AGplusone: we’ll wait, JJ … nice to see you again, please do Lady

JJ Brannon: Later.

RMLWJ1: Enjoyed the movie. The TV series kind of leaves me cold.

JJ Brannon has left the room.

AGplusone: And thanks for the blood in Philly, JJ

ddavitt: odd….

ddavitt: most people it’s the other way round

AGplusone: afk again ….

LadyS122: if I come back in time.. someone please reinvite mee.. later.

Bleys1959: later, dudes….

Bleys1959 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: You can save a shortcut yourself. Click on File then Create Shortcut, then you can use it anytime to join

LadyS122: ok.. was trying to figure out how to do that. L(

LadyS122: thanks.. l8r

Paradis401: Thanks for that hint David. I needed that.

AGplusone: I’m having a terrible day. Went to make a G&T and found I was out of tonic … am now sipping G over the rocks with bitters. Sort of a pink gin, what?

AGplusone: It being well past yardarm time

LadyS122 has left the room.

AGplusone: but I’ll probably catch malaria now

Paradis401: =-O

RMLWJ1: Might try gin and soda with a chunk of lemon. Not bad at all.

ddavitt: Yes; angostura bitters…last for ever

AGplusone: understand you’re moving to Kentucky, Denis, accdng to Ginny

Paradis401: Yes. Thank the lord!

joelrmpls: Arghhh…. rebooting; back shortly, I hope . . . .

joelrmpls has left the room.

AGplusone: angostura bitters not only last for ever but grow odd things in the bottom of the bottle

AGplusone: strange looking things ….

AGplusone: urk …

RMLWJ1: Quick. Call Ft. Detrick.

ddavitt: Ours came with us from the Uk and probably predates our relationship

ddavitt: I haven’t dared peer into it

Paradis401: Very emotional seeing Louisville after 40 years.

ddavitt: Hope it goes well

ddavitt: Moving is a good way to spring clean

AGplusone: Have to learn to say “yaw’ll” however they spell that.

Paradis401: I know it will. Warmer too.

DavidWrightSr: Y’all

AGplusone: okay, if you say so, sir

RMLWJ1: If I ever move, I’ll have to move a wood shop with lots of heavy machines. Not looking forward to it.

DavidWrightSr: Only one state between here and Kaintuck

ddavitt: Is the grass really blue?

ddavitt: It sounds so Oz like

AGplusone: lucky you have Tennessee, Dave …

DavidWrightSr: I’m only 35 miles south of Chattanooga

Paradis401: Yes it is. And I hope to go visit the Heinlein Library in Butler some time.

ddavitt: I have 3000 + books…try explaining why you need that many to the removal men

ddavitt: and why you won’t emigrate without them

RMLWJ1: Books? Books are another problem.

ddavitt: I entrusted my books to a boat on the Stlantic; very traumatic

ddavitt: they lost one box but thank heavens it had no books in it

AGplusone: I’m listening to news program on Shrub and the other knee-jerks on cloning …

Paradis401: Except for my Heinlein collection and a few other favorites, I disposed of 8 tons of books/papersd when I went paperless to Hard Drive.

ddavitt: Excuse me while I have a palpitation

AGplusone: having failed to stiffle research with his “Solomonic” decree, he nows wants legislation to outlaw it.

Paradis401: Makes moving easier.

RMLWJ1: Couldn’t do it. Too much stuff that would have to be scanned to go paperless.

ddavitt: Sic laz and Lor onto him

ddavitt: No pain, no gain Denis

ddavitt: Life isn’t supposed to be eay

ddavitt: easy

Paradis401: I thought so too but I got it done… took two years.

ddavitt: I couldn’t. just couldn’t.

ddavitt: My books, mine!!!

ddavitt: Just got another 15 or so at the library sale this week and shoe horned them onto the shelves

RMLWJ1: There are autographed first editions I’ll not part with. Others that are valuable in and of themselves, and still others that have sentimental value.

Paradis401: I had over 50,000 medical references. it was too hard to access in books.

RMLWJ1: Bingo.

ddavitt: Whew..that _is_ a lot

AGplusone: I think it’s just as well Mrs. H went to sleep … she was outraged a few months ago. Too many of her friends have Alzheimers.

RMLWJ1: I’d love to have my medical texts on hard drive, and updatelable for a reasonable fee.

ddavitt: Is this going to help research into a cure for that?

AGplusone: and Parkinsons

ddavitt: Reference books, yes, but not books for reading

Paradis401: My research is in blood banking and transfusion.

AGplusone: and probably others … House passed a bill making it a ten year felony to conduct this research

RMLWJ1: Radiology, trauma, and emergency med.

Paradis401: Interesting!

ddavitt: No more than I’d expect from this administration

SageMerlin has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin’ Alan

ddavitt: I’m going to disappear; pulled a lower back muscle and am in intermittent agony :-( Too much baby lifting

SageMerlin: Hey folks

Paradis401: Take care Jane. Thanks for coming.

ddavitt: Alan, I said i was going before you arrived; it’s not personal:-)

AGplusone: You need a G&T jane

RMLWJ1: heh

RMLWJ1: Several.

SageMerlin: Yeah Right

RMLWJ1: And a couple of asprin.

SageMerlin: That;s what they all say

ddavitt: Well, i have many cans of tonic but I don’t want to make you jealous

ddavitt: See you all soon

AGplusone: gin on rocks is nice

AGplusone: see you Jane

SageMerlin: Sounds liike my last sgirl friend catatonic

ddavitt: Gack..too strong

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: I ran out of tonic Alan

SageMerlin: Are you all having a party without me?

Paradis401: Yes!

SageMerlin: I just woke up…been drowsing

AGplusone: I’m listening to a debate on “human personhood” now …

SageMerlin: ugh ak

AGplusone: let’s get back to Heinlein before I phone in …

AGplusone: we’re back to cloning wars again

SageMerlin: What have I barged into tonight?

Paradis401: That’s a mothful… personwho?

AGplusone: “Pretty boys in Heinlein” … I like ‘person or daughterhood”

SageMerlin: I leave you all alone for a few weeks and this is what you degenerate into?

Paradis401: My wife thought Mel Gibson in “Tim” would have made a good Michael V. She thought Mel was pretty then.

SageMerlin: Who’s Mel Gibson?

SageMerlin: I don’t get out much.

AGplusone: What was the one where Gibson had half his face disfigured?

Paradis401: He’s an Aussie who smokes Playahs.

AGplusone: That was “Tim” wasn’t it?

Paradis401: Yes Tim with Piper Laurie as a lover.

Paradis401: The half face was The Man Without a Face I think.

SageMerlin: I have an important virus warning for you all

Paradis401: Really?

AGplusone: [now the idiots are arguing about when the soul enters the body … value of human ‘personhood’ … cloning wars, all idiots!!!] I have to go turn channels.

DavidWrightSr: BadTrans?

SageMerlin: This is not public yet, but since I am a target for a lot of viruses I get it with them before most people.

SageMerlin: Watch out for any email that you get with NO message, NO subject heading, but an attachment.

SageMerlin: Do NOT download the attachments under any circumstances.

RMLWJ1: I got one today from ‘Joann’ at UTexas.

AGplusone: delete anything like that without opening

SageMerlin: I am getting these at the rate of two or three a day, and when I send my standard reply that we don’t open random messages with attachments

SageMerlin: the email is always returned as undeliverable.

Paradis401: Good Advice. Always.

RMLWJ1: I just block sender.

AGplusone: I wouldn’t even bother replying

SageMerlin: This one is very subtle because all of the other trojan horses (can the condom make sue?) have stupid titles or contents in the email

SageMerlin: Just thought I would pass it along. Expect to hear about it in three to five days.

SageMerlin: Brother Bill just arrived.

RMLWJ1: I routinely block mail senders I don’t know that send attachments. Easier.

AGplusone: now that I think about it, I’ve been deleting those for about a week now …

AGplusone: glad I have been

Paradis401: Some people must be awfully bored with their lives.

RMLWJ1: Agreed.

AGplusone: Well, apart from the fact they doubled the Jeopardy category prizes, anything exciting happening in anyone’s lives?

RMLWJ1: Just the usual idiots arguing with telephone poles and trucks here.

Paradis401: Has anyone heard if they were going to film any other RAH books?

RMLWJ1: Not that I’ve heard.

AGplusone: There was one point I wonder what Alan would say to. What about the inner beauty in someone’s mind being manifested in physical appearance, Alan, anything in your philosophy about that?

AGplusone: Such as Waldo’s mind change being manifested in his outward appearance as a ‘pretty boy’?

SageMerlin: It has been my unfortunate observation that what is inside is usually reflected on the outside.

AGplusone: from a malignant blimp …

Paradis401: A mean person usually looks mean.

SageMerlin: Take the case of the plain woman who has a dazzling smile that turns your insides out.

SageMerlin: Once you see that smile, you will never see that person as plain again.

SageMerlin: We learn to interpret physical beauty on the basis of our reaction to the inner person

SageMerlin: I had some freinds once that ran a major modeling agency in NYC.

AGplusone: yes, such as the voices of all the whore in Rhysling tale, the one in Time Enough For Love

SageMerlin: Visiting them, I would get to see major fashion models in their off moments

SageMerlin: and what I learned from that is that it’s all marketing

SageMerlin: those women are canvasses onto which we project our learned images of beauty.

AGplusone: but do we have to be blind poets to hear the beauty in all their voices?

SageMerlin: No, just close your eyes.

Paradis401: Maybe. It would help.

SageMerlin: Sometimes it helps a lot

SageMerlin: (I hope that wasn’t too sexist

AGplusone: Oscar is “fair of face and figure” … if we ignore his scarred face and broken nose …

Paradis401: RAH could find beauty in many things. It shows in his books.

SageMerlin: In some spiritual circles, it is maintained that a beautiful person is receiving the karma from a well lived previous life.

Paradis401: That sounds good.

SageMerlin: Personally, I think that’s hookum

Paradis401: Chinese philosophy.

SageMerlin: To me, its always handsome is as handsome does.

Paradis401: I agree.

SageMerlin: with apologies to Forest Gump

Paradis401: And Mel Gibson.

SageMerlin: Who?

Paradis401: Ha!

SageMerlin: Exactly

Paradis401: At the time Robert met Sturgeon, he was also in the company of Ron Hubbard, Asimov etc.

Paradis401: Perhaps that may have made Ted pretty or prettier. I don’t know.

SageMerlin: God, can you imagine being in the same room with all of them at once.

Paradis401: It must have been quite an experience. It was for Robert.

Paradis401: I don’t know if Sprague was handsome. Certainly Catherine was gorgeous.

DavidWrightSr: The picture I recall of Sprague showed him kind of tall and lanky IIRC

SageMerlin: You speak from superior intelligence sir. I only know them by their words.

Paradis401: Reminded me od Eva Gabor … even at 80. I mean Catherine.

RMLWJ1: He had an interesting face.

Paradis401: What did RW Campbell look like?

AGplusone: I may have a photograph in a book of his letters

AGplusone: lemme see

Paradis401: Igli?

Paradis401: EG Robinson?

RMLWJ1: Peter Lorré?

Paradis401: I thought so. Maybe.

AGplusone: Can’t find it, probably misfiled in my porn collection … my vague recollection is typical long-faced Scot.

AGplusone: When I find it, I’ll recall. Remind me.

DavidWrightSr: Fairly large guy as I recall

Paradis401: ElRon Hubbard looked rather impish… so he did not inspire pretty boy characters.

AGplusone: Was it Williamson who brought Spurgeon by, Denis?

AGplusone: What did Williamson look like?

Paradis401: Robert says it was Campbell.

OOCadre has entered the room.

AGplusone: I will resist the temptation to say that “if pretty is as pretty does” here’s another guest to discuss Pretty Boys in Heinlein.

AGplusone: How’s school, Cadre?

OOCadre: Going well

Paradis401: Who dat?

joelrmpls has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Hi there. Back.

AGplusone: Alan’s son. Has none of Alan’s objectionable characteristics. Hi, Joel.

Paradis401: 😛

AGplusone: [and I understand he’s better looking too]

SageMerlin: Excuse me

SageMerlin: That was a low blow.

AGplusone: okay, you’re excused

OOCadre: lol

SageMerlin: I got David in window and Asa in another and you’re both ehere at the same time talking behind my back.`

joelrmpls: :-)

SageMerlin: Asa= oocadre

AGplusone: We were discussing the aspect of blind poets hearing beautiful voices …

Paradis401: According to the Howard Clinic. It’s in the genes.

SageMerlin: No, you were talking about a living poet who had his back turned at the time.

joelrmpls: And what do you call the first step in the process by which DNA replicates itself? That part where it splits?

AGplusone: I was thinking about the Daffy cartoon with his faithful companion “Decoy” …

Paradis401: Splitsville.

joelrmpls: “Unzipping its genes.”

AGplusone: mitosis?

joelrmpls: Sorry; it’s been a lonnnnnnnnnng day.

SageMerlin: No, unzipping is the first step, way before this one

SageMerlin: Sorry

AGplusone: it’s been a long time since biology 2, or adventures in fruitflies as we called it

Paradis401: RAH was quite a geneticist. And I think it crept into his books.

joelrmpls: Me, too. Tomorrow will be longer. Got to go to my kid’s school and explain that they really mean their zero tolerance for violence policy.

joelrmpls: RAH had an immense store of obscure and nonobscure knowledge. Frustrating for us lesser mortals.

AGplusone: zero tolerance for zero IQs

AGplusone: makes everything decisionless

Paradis401: He was better at it than Isaac even though the latter wrote more about it.

joelrmpls: No, they tolerate that quite well. It’s the zero IQs in the administrators I object to. (The kid who slapped my kid — he wanted her seat on the bus — is on his third suspension this year.)

AGplusone: if you have a rule for everything nothing will ever harm you and you’ll never have to think or judge

SageMerlin: I think Issac was speaking more to the issue of social evolution

Paradis401: The genetics in RAH books is flawless.

joelrmpls: Yup; society has become rulebound. If a kid brings a Swiss Army knife in his/her pocket, that’s grounds for explusion.

AGplusone: Boy Scout knife … carried one from age eleven onward

joelrmpls: Slap a few kids around? You’re just a child with extra needs.

OOCadre: that has ALWAYS been ground for expulsion

joelrmpls: Me, too. I never went to school without some sort of tool/knife on me. Never pulled it out for any except the obvious sorts of reasons, either.

OOCadre: they never do it though

SageMerlin: Right….in my family, a man without a knife on his person is considered undressed

AGplusone: it’s a tool

AGplusone: good for opening more than cans of Budweiser too

joelrmpls: I habitually wear a knife on my belt. Other than the keyboard, it’s the tool I use most during the day.

OOCadre: only one?

SageMerlin: I am told that the average Alaskan has at least four knives on his person at any given tie

AGplusone: me too … my finger nails are always getting filthy

RMLWJ1: Been carrying a pocket knife of some sort since I was about seven.

SageMerlin: I carry three myself.

joelrmpls: or a letter needs opening, or a box of rice, or whatever . . . sure.

RMLWJ1: Plus a Leatherman, for several years now.

AGplusone: speaking of which, I need to put an edge on it again … I’ve been negligent

joelrmpls: But I’m not going to fight that fight with the school — I just want to make it clear that I (and my lawyer, if necessary) have a zero tolerance policy for assault.

AGplusone: Which one of the spices was the target?

joelrmpls: Whining Spice. the older.

AGplusone: How old the boy?

joelrmpls: 12; she’s 11.

AGplusone: He’s big enough to tell you’ll break his arm next time

joelrmpls: In a saner world, that would be the right thing to do.

Paradis401: Parents today have a lot more to cope with than in my time. It’s a pity. Is it the TV?

RMLWJ1: The handwringers would have you in gaol for life for that nowadays.

AGplusone: Glad mine’s thirty-one.

SageMerlin: My son had the good sense never to tell me if had a problem at school

joelrmpls: In this one, upon the advice of my attorney, I’m not talking to the kid. Too risky, he says. If somebody needs talking to, beyond the school, he’ll talk to the father.

SageMerlin: He told me once that one of his teachers was harassing him. I tore her a new orifice right in front of him

RMLWJ1: If my pop had gotten a call from school about my conduct, I’d still be eating standing up. If I’d lived.

OOCadre: yeah, well, she was a bitch

SageMerlin: Think it did something to his overall perception of teachers

AGplusone: My daughter scared the hell out of me one time. Talked a very large teenager into bashing someone good who was stupid enough to hit her.

joelrmpls: Yup. My kids know that I’m on the teachers’ side when it comes to not getting schoolwork done, but I’m not interested in bureaucratic excuses for them being hit.

RMLWJ1: Good tactics, anyhow.

AGplusone: For a while we thought he had a concussion.

Paradis401: Your daughter sounds practical, David.

SageMerlin: Concussions are good for the soul

AGplusone: He never tried to hit her again and I was spared the necessity of killing him.

SageMerlin: Actually, her response was quite innovative

SageMerlin: That’s the problem with fathers….we over-react

joelrmpls: Sounds it.

joelrmpls: Yup — but that’s our job.

SageMerlin: No one is going to kill the little bastard except for me

SageMerlin: Only he’s bigger than I am these days

OOCadre: you already tried that, didn’t work

joelrmpls: My father is/was a jerk, but God forbid if he’d ever heard of my hitting a littler kid.

AGplusone: exactly …

AGplusone: I recall the boxing gloves.

SageMerlin: Excuse me, I never tried to kill you son.

AGplusone: My old man would give me lessons …

SageMerlin: Proof: you’re still alive

AGplusone: when either I pleased him or annoyed him.

joelrmpls: Mine’s attitude was “nicht mit dien hendts”. I found that less than useful.

SageMerlin: That was before kids all got martial arts training.

SageMerlin: I can’t even lay a glove on mine

Paradis401: My mother did the spanking. With an iron skillet. And she was a wee little girl. But it worked wonders.

AGplusone: yeah, well, there’s martial arts and there’s fighting

SageMerlin: You’re welcome to try him any time you want

AGplusone: I never fight

SageMerlin: Neither does he

AGplusone: gave that up when I gave up jumping out of perfectly good planes

SageMerlin: We raise our children by our own examples. If we don’t stand up for them when they are young, they will never stand up form themselves later on in life.

RMLWJ1: When I was a kid, our bugaboo was great gf’s razor strop.

joelrmpls: I hope the reverse is true. We’ll see.

SageMerlin: Oye, do I remember my father’s strop

RMLWJ1: Me too.

AGplusone: grandfather had one of those … once I tore all the leaves off a hedge ….

SageMerlin: Funny thing was,,,,,he didn’t own a straight razor

AGplusone: I was about four

RMLWJ1: The razors have been long gone, except for my cousin’s. The strop is still around.

SageMerlin: David, you were NEVER four

AGplusone: it made a tremendous noise …

AGplusone: and stung a little

AGplusone: and I never tore the leaves off a hedge again

AGplusone: neither did I see that strop again, either

AGplusone: although the time we killed his garter snake that he kept in the garden I heard about it … I think he was too mad and realized it.

AGplusone: garter snakes eat bugs that eat tomato plants

AGplusone: Well, David … anyone … propose a topic for next meeting?

Paradis401: For Saturday?

SageMerlin: Parent-Child relationships in Heinlein

Paradis401: That sounds good Sage. Lots of meat there.

AGplusone: How ’bout “disciplining the superkid!”

SageMerlin: Make sure oocadre’s not around for that one

AGplusone: why? he knows about flamethrowers

OOCadre: I have aikido until 8 my time,

LadyS122 has entered the room.

LadyS122: guess I am catching the tale end

SageMerlin: I am not sure what he knows, which wories mes

AGplusone: Okay … topic’s P-C relationships in Heinlein … chat co-host is Sage

SageMerlin: Is this for Saturday (damn opened my big mouth again

AGplusone: lead off on afh by Sunday possible?

AGplusone: No, for two weeks from today and fwng sunday

SageMerlin: You got it sarge. Neat how you tripped me this time

SageMerlin: Ace, can you come into this one.

Paradis401: I really do think parent-child relationships in Heinlein is very good.

SageMerlin: Might be fun to have a father son team co lead

RMLWJ1: yeah.

Paradis401: Are we continuing with pretty boys on Saturday?

AGplusone: Okay, if you send you’re leadoff to Dave Wright he can also e mail it out for those too forgettful to remember how to find AFH … okay, David?

AGplusone: Sure, Denis

OOCadre: i already said I can’t

AGplusone: your …

SageMerlin: But you can on Saturday (we do these things twice)

joelrmpls: Ooops… bedtime. Long day tomorrow, too. Gnight, all….

RMLWJ1: night

Paradis401: Good night Joel.

SageMerlin: Well, I have to go back to work. I have some loans to lock in

AGplusone: G’nite Joel, Good luck with the pedagogues

AGplusone: best to Whinning spice

SageMerlin: Give hell, Joel

joelrmpls has left the room.

LadyS122: when will the logs be posted?

LadyS122: so I caan read the second hour

AGplusone: Dave usually gets it up tomorrow or Sat morning

LadyS122: ok.. thanks… wish it didn’t take an hour to put the kids to bed, but that’s life. :-) see y’all next time I have good timing

AGplusone: yes!

AGplusone: Do we have your Email, lady?

Paradis401: Please!

RMLWJ1: Be well, Lady.

AGplusone: Email it to dwrighsr@alltel.net

LadyS122: ok

AGplusone: so he can put it on the notice mailing list

LadyS122: ok. THanks

AGplusone: Anything else, anyone ….

AGplusone: M/adjourn

LadyS122: durned laptop.. still not used to the keyboard

LadyS122: heheheeheh

AGplusone: copy me, Lady so I have a backup

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

LadyS122: ok AGplusone@aol.com?

AGplusone: ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com

Paradis401: Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Hello, Denis.

LadyS122: ok…

AGplusone: note the period in the first addy …

LadyS122: got it..

AGplusone: Hi, Bill was getting ready to adjourn … you may take over if you wish …

Paradis401: We seem to be winding up Bill. See you Saturday?

BPRAL22169: I will be there Saturday — I got tied up here today.

AGplusone: yoikes, I’m outta gin too

BPRAL22169: Nope — I’ll save it up for Saturday.

AGplusone: Closing log

Paradis401: It was fun when the ladies were here.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: 8:19:20 PM PST

RMLWJ1: Night, then, all.

RMLWJ1: Be well.

AGplusone: sure was

AGplusone: night all

LadyS122: yeah.we kept discussing James Marsters. :-)

OOCadre: night

OOCadre: have a good evening

RMLWJ1: Thanks for the invite, David. enjoyed it muchly.

Paradis401: Night David. All.:-)

OOCadre has left the room.

LadyS122: I need to go to bed myself.. those kids get up awful early in the morning

LadyS122: (early to me… anyway)

SageMerlin has left the room.

LadyS122 has left the room.

Paradis401 has left the room.

RMLWJ1 has left the room.

AGplusone: David, I sent you a log. Should be in your mailbox.

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 11:22 P.M. EST
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 11-10-2001 05:00 P.M. EST Governments in Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 11-10-2001 05:00 P.M. EST

Governments in Heinlein

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Dave. I may have to leave early depending on when my dauther’

DavidWrightSr: Hi David

AGplusone: daugher’s class breaks up.

AGplusone: can’t type or spell

DavidWrightSr: daughter? :-)

AGplusone: that one, yes!

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hello, everybody

AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi

DavidWrightSr: Been trying all day to upload the log from thursday. Can’t get tripod to work

AGplusone: that’s a shame … but doubt whether anyone will miss the words of wit for a day

KultsiKN: There’s been quite a lot of trouble on the Internet lately

Paradis401 has entered the room.

AGplusone: thanks for trying … how so, K?

SAcademy has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Welcome

AGplusone: HI, Denis, Ginny

SAcademy: Good afternoon

Paradis401: Hi all.

KultsiKN: Hello Ginny, Denis

AGplusone: I may have to leave early. My daughter’s class make break and I’ll have to drive to Westchester (near the airport) and pick her up.

SAcademy: Took a nap and my fingers aren’t working yet.

DavidWrightSr: I see that you did get a response from Gordon on your last post

KultsiKN: David, we’ve had trouble in our connections at work, as well as at home, and I got similar reports from my son in Sweden

SAcademy: Bill P. sent regrets

AGplusone: Yes, I did. Hope he’ll stop by.

AGplusone: Even if I’m back to fighting WW III with him on the other board

DavidWrightSr: What board is that?

AGplusone: the sff.net one

DavidWrightSr: Oh. Haven’t checked that one lately.

KultsiKN: Which one on sff.net? I’m not getting any messages on the Heinlein ones.

AGplusone: heinlein forum

SAcademy: Is that still running? I used to help them with

KultsiKN: No messages.

SAcademy: now and then

AGplusone: may be the same people, Ginny

DavidWrightSr: I see the ‘war’ now. I’ll have to read them later.

SAcademy: Chuck and Linda Coffin etc.

AGplusone: Coffin’s name is familiar

AGplusone: may very well be the same

SAcademy: He’s still working for the Army

SAcademy: Did you know him there?

AGplusone: haven’t seen him post lately … in quite a while. Shall I say “hi” to him.

AGplusone: ??

SAcademy: They bid us in for a breakfast at a con once.

SAcademy: That’s how we met them

AGplusone: I’ll let them know you remember there.

AGplusone: “Dee2” comes over to afh from there.

SAcademy: Does she?

AGplusone: yes …

AGplusone: nice person

SAcademy: She lives not too far from here.

AGplusone: Does she … ? That ‘bama girl is closer than I thought.

SAcademy: Wish I could still drive.

AGplusone: So do we. You need a driver, Miss Daisy!

SAcademy: I guess I do.

AGplusone: that was a lovely movie if you had the chance to see it

AGplusone: Academy Awards well deserved, etc.

SAcademy: Nope. I seldom see movies.

SAcademy: Can’t get to those either.

SAcademy: Denis said he was coming.

AGplusone: Gordon suggested that the government in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress was ‘libertarian’ in a Freedman sense … having run screaming from the ‘Chicago school’ of everything all my life, can anyone ‘splain to me what Gordon means?

AGplusone: I see him here.

Paradis401: I’m here Ginny.

SAcademy: Okay.

SAcademy: Well, the Libertarians have adopted Moon as a bible.

DavidWrightSr: David. I haven’t the foggiest. I have often wondered about why the libs think TMIAH is such a bible.

DavidWrightSr: Because, the government they get sure isn’t lib at the end

KultsiKN: Nor is it when Mike & Co are managing things.

Paradis401: Who is Mike and Co?

SAcademy: The computer.

Paradis401: Boy am I sloow today!

DavidWrightSr: Mike the computer and Mannie and Prof etc

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

KultsiKN: Mycroft Holmes, i.e. the computer, Mannie, Prof, Wye…

AGplusone: Gordon says: “I should be clear that I by “anarchy” I mean a “propertarian” anarchy, such as that described by David Friedman or Murray Rothbard.”

AGplusone: and then he goes on to say … lemme get it …

DavidWrightSr: Never heard the term.

DavidWrightSr: ‘propertarian’ that is

AGplusone: “I think that there are good reasons from evolutionary biology to argue that any anarchy will have some, and perhaps a great deal of, order.”

DavidWrightSr: As I argued in my essay, there was a great deal of ‘order’ to their anarchy based on ‘customs’

AGplusone: Do Friedman and Rothbard and the ‘libertarians’ believe that governments evolve biologically, like social Darwinism for example?

SAcademy: People accused Robert of being a social Darwinist.

AGplusone: I know, a thing that infuriated him.

SAcademy: Yes. it did.

AGplusone: But is there any argument that governments evolve biologically?

SAcademy: I still don’t really understand the term

SAcademy: Look at ours here lately!

Paradis401: I’ve given up on libertarians, I am now an antiquarian.

AGplusone: I don’t understand how an order as complicated as a government evolves ‘biologically’ … it would seem to me that whatever the shamans, the chiefs, the thinkers come up with would be what you’d get.

SAcademy: Bush reacts to the bombings.

DavidWrightSr: There would seem to be several ‘drives’, one towards monolithic and the other towards ‘democracy’. They seem to alternate back and forth or so it seems to me.

KultsiKN: Like an amoeba?

AGplusone: If Jeffersons, Adams, et al., get together, they invent whatever flavor they favor.

AGplusone: Yes, along that spectrum … I agree.

SAcademy: Which Adams?

Paradis401: What about the amoeba, Kultsi?

AGplusone: I don’t know any other spectrum, but I ‘spose there are some.

KultsiKN: Shrub reacting — like an amoeba.

Paradis401: I get it.

AGplusone: Very slowly, it seems to me.

AGplusone: But if you get a “constitutional convention” it would seem that it could quickly evolve.

DavidWrightSr: The reason I thought of this topic was realizing just how many different forms of govts were found in Robert’s works and that fascinated me.

AGplusone: You get either a Declaration of the Rights of Men, and something ‘new’ or not.

AGplusone: All invented, all artificial, per the ‘latest’ “thinking”

SAcademy: Isn’t government of any sort artificial?

AGplusone: I do see a sort of progression towards more complication, more ineffectiveness, more remoteness … in later works.

AGplusone: Has to be: it’s a compact between people.

Paradis401: I agree with Ginny. Phoney often rhymes wirh government.

AGplusone: There governments in IWFNE and Friday are: better not speak of them.

AGplusone: But all resemble a participatory democracy

AGplusone: or republic …

SAcademy: Whenever you get a lot of diverse people, you will get differences betwwen (or among) them

AGplusone: only each seems remoter

AGplusone: which is the common thread of warning in those later books

AGplusone: and, hence, the reason for the emigrations to the stars

SAcademy: Taking our quarrels with us?

AGplusone: of course we will

AGplusone: it’s our nature

AGplusone: just like the scorpions

KultsiKN: Only there are likely to be bigger problems, out there.

SAcademy: Do we have to take scorpions along?

AGplusone: unless we lay our sword and shields down by the riverside and ‘don’t study war no more’

Paradis401: No. Lazarus wouldn’t,

AGplusone: which militates against the notion that there is an evolutionary force working in governments

SAcademy: Can’t do that, David, we might need them elsewhere.

AGplusone: or maybe the scorpions are necessary traits

AGplusone: exactly

SAcademy: I am an anarchist. Robert said so. I don’t like any sort of government.

Paradis401: Good for you… Ginny!

AGplusone: difference between ‘anarchists’ and anyone else may be really only a matter of whose ox is being gored how hard

AGplusone: I think anyone is an anarchist

AGplusone: nobody likes to be told

SAcademy: Are you really?

AGplusone: I’m as real as I get

SAcademy: You believe in lawsw, dont you?

DavidWrightSr: I said that we are all ‘anarchists’ limited only by the constraints that we accept.

SAcademy: laws

Paradis401: Laws are for Lawyers

AGplusone: the difference is that 95% want to fill their rice bowls everyday … and 5% want to tell others how to fill, or how much to fill … control freaks.

AGplusone: and all are merely tinkering with the certain allowable slack

SAcademy: And I for one am heartily sick of buying rice for others.

AGplusone: leading the herds hither and yon in varying directions

Paradis401: I’m back to Bernardo’s notion of Government….. minimum.

DavidWrightSr: Most people accept the constraints of ‘the law’ except when they don’t for whatever reason that they might find justifiable

SAcademy: Anyone else ever met Robert Le fevre?

DavidWrightSr: or ‘custom’ or ‘upbringing’ or whatever other constraints that *they* accept

SAcademy: Or read his books?

Paradis401: Who dat Ginny?

AGplusone: the Loonie society of TMiaHM. Gordon sez: “It is true that[local society] is embedded in a larger social structure with a government, but this has little effect on the day-to-day lives”

SAcademy: He ran something called the Freedom School.

Paradis401: Where?

AGplusone: He’s the one who is/was the editor in Colorado Springs.

SAcademy: Yes.

AGplusone: Perhaps a model for Hugh Farnham?

SAcademy: For one of the Freedom newspapers. R. C. Hoiles’ chain

SAcademy: No, Hugh Farnham was modeled from Hugh Robinson.

AGplusone: the contractor?

SAcademy: Yes.

AGplusone: What did La Fevre have to say on the point?

SAcademy: He was opposed to any government.

SAcademy: He liked Rand.

AGplusone: okay, an ‘anarchist’ or a ‘libertarian’ as they style themselves

SAcademy: Remember Atlas Shrugged?

AGplusone: Atlas Shudder, yes.

SAcademy: The valley in Colorado where no one told anyone else what to do?

AGplusone: named “Utopia” perhaps?

SAcademy: No., Havent’ you read Atlas Shrugged?

AGplusone: how did they breed that trait out of the 5 %

SAcademy: If not, you really should.

AGplusone: no, I’m kidding, Ginny … I’ve read it.

Paradis401: I hate to say this, but I could never get through more than two pages of Rand although I have most of the books.

AGplusone: but I’ve always felt the worlds created by Rand are utopian

SAcademy: Try again Denis, She makes a certain amount of sense.

AGplusone: and, within the meaning of the term, not possible … in the ironic sense Bacon choose for the word

Paradis401: Should I try it while listening to Mahler?

SAcademy: No. Beethoven

SAcademy: OPr Wagner.

AGplusone: [I’d go with Wagner or Mahler]

Paradis401: Oh. Ok. I’ll do that.

SAcademy: Gotterdammerung.

AGplusone: right!

SAcademy: Did anyone know that I’m a Wagner fan?

Paradis401: The Song of the Earth according to the minstrel of the Spaceways.

AGplusone: everyone is a Wagner fan I thought, except he’s still ‘politically incorrect’ in Israel.

Paradis401: Oh Yes. You are Wagner’s heroine Ginny.

AGplusone: [but they still know his music anyway, just won’t play it publicly]

SAcademy: Sure. Brunnhilde.

SAcademy: Had the red hair anyway.

Paradis401: Didn’t Robert say that?

AGplusone: and the ‘magic helmet’?

SAcademy: No I had red hair before I met him.

SAcademy: No tarnhelm

AGplusone: shucks!

SAcademy: Sorry to bring personalities into this.

AGplusone: why?

AGplusone: they’re interesting

Paradis401: Why not? It’s fun!

AGplusone: with Le Fevre’s writings, are they published anywhere?

SAcademy: You’re not an anaarchist, Denis.

SAcademy: I think so. In LA. I think.

AGplusone: Neil would know?

Paradis401: I’m an antiquarian anarchist with cravings towards synthesis.

SAcademy: Yes. He will have them all.

SAcademy: I will see whether they’re still in print someday.

SAcademy: I think Brad would know also.

SAcademy: Do you get Prometheus?

SAcademy: They have given Robert about five of their top awards.

SAcademy: If I can find a copy around, I will send you one, David.

AGplusone: Okay: my daughter just called. Her class finally broke. Have to go get here, and bid you all adieu for tonight.

AGplusone: I’d appreciate it. Bye everyone ….

AGplusone: I’ll leave this running for backup David

KultsiKN: Bye, David — try to survive…

Paradis401: Bye AG.

SAcademy: Bye David.

AGplusone: I shall survive! bye

Paradis401: Who is They with the five awards for Robert, Ginny?

SAcademy: Libertarians.

Paradis401: Thanks.

SAcademy: Actually I thhnk they call themselves the Libertarian Futurist Party.

KultsiKN: Really organized? (if you can find that among the Libertarians)

SAcademy: Well, they’re libertarians. They don’t really believe in organization.

SAcademy: Neil Schulman just finished a new novel. I haven’t read it yet.

SAcademy: He wrote Rainbow Cadenza, and another one.

SAcademy: There’s a whole hive of them in L. A.

SAcademy: And many of them write, too. I am trying to think of the names which might be recognizeable.

DavidWrightSr: Laying aside the fact that you’d personally prefer no government, which of the forms that Robert described appeals to you the most?

Paradis401: Good question!

SAcademy: Maybe the one on Tertius.,

SAcademy: If there was one there.

DavidWrightSr: That’s about as close to no government that you could get :-)

SAcademy: It wasn’t very visible.

KultsiKN: OTOH it was powerful

DavidWrightSr: As I recall only whatever rules the colony leader felt necessary

SAcademy: Was it? How?

KultsiKN: As David pointed out: despotism.

SAcademy: On Tertius??

DavidWrightSr: Not really, no indication that people had to pay attention to the rules :-)

Paradis401: Lazarene Nepotism?

DavidWrightSr: I suspect that it was more a case of the people accepting the ‘constraints’ of the rules as usefule

DavidWrightSr: useful

KultsiKN: If they did not, the colony leader went out and kicked some ass.

Paradis401: And then?

KultsiKN: Well, they might kick back, but in the beginning it cannot be any other way: the leader must have absolute power and means to enforce it.

SAcademy: Then everyone did what suited them.

KultsiKN: Very close to lifeboat.

Paradis401: Well, I really liked that concept.

SAcademy: In a lifeboat, your life might depend on your doing what is needed, so it would be better to obey what the leader had to say.

KultsiKN: On a new planet the circumstances are likely to be a lot like that.

SAcademy: But there are laws that don’t require such obedience. N o lives depend on obeying them.

KultsiKN: We have such laws. A competent colony leader don’t make such laws.

SAcademy: What restrains him? Or Her?

KultsiKN: His/her customers may not be sunday school kids.

SAcademy: Leaders can be very dense. Look at Mr. Bush!

KultsiKN: Sense among leaders is just as hypothetical as interstellar colonies 😀

Paradis401: Sorry, I’m busy trying to referee a bush war between the cats. You can say that again about the current Bush. Does his momma know he’s so dense?

SAcademy: And if this were a dictatorship, I could be hanbged for that.

Paradis401: Well, there’s not always any sense in genetics.

Paradis401: I mean heredity.

SAcademy: Do you really think I’m geriatric?

SAcademy: Sorry, I misread your sentence.

Paradis401: I’m taliking about Bush. I’m more geriatric than you are me dear.

KultsiKN: A family (RL) over here: the father is an OK guy, the mother’s so dense she couldn’t pee into a boot with instructions, the son’s like her.

Paradis401: Well Bush Jr. inherited two recessive dense genes from his folks.

KultsiKN: LOL

SAcademy: Wedo ave families like that Kultsi. The Jukes and Kallikaks.

SAcademy: I remember studying them in college.

SAcademy: If those were theirreal names.

Paradis401: Were they deeply inbred?

SAcademy: Don’t recall that. I think so.

DavidWrightSr: Robert used the ‘Kallikaks’ in Between Planets, If I recall correctly

SAcademy: Lived in the Kentucky hills.

Paradis401: Happens. Lazarus would have frowned here.

KultsiKN: Not the ones over here, as far as I know — actually the only really shtoopid people I know.

Paradis401: Got lots of those here in the boonies.

Paradis401: And now they’ll teepee my garden!

SAcademy: Peop[le like that need to be restrained by law or whatever. Preferably maybe death.

KultsiKN: Teepee like in … what?

SAcademy: I don’t understand

Paradis401: Toilet paper in all the trees and shrubs.

SAcademy: That was supposed to mean “I love you.” We got that once in Colorado.

Paradis401: They do a lot of that here. Their idea of fun on Saturday night.

KultsiKN: With lots of beer, I ‘spose?

DavidWrightSr: High school kids do a lot of it here. Not sure what it is supposed to mean these days. House down the street got it last weekend

Paradis401: Perhaps. But they really enjoy wrapping your trees with it. Really dumb!

SAcademy: That was Halloween though

Paradis401: Here it’s year-round. We had better things to do after a beer in my day.

SAcademy: On Halloween stunts like that are allowable.

KultsiKN: Me too, Denis. Many other stupid things.

Paradis401: I’ve been lucky… probably the only house in town that hasn’t been teepeed. Maybe they think I have a shotgun or an AK-47.

SAcademy: And don’t you?

KultsiKN: When, in fact you just have the old .45…

DavidWrightSr: What about the ‘Brass Cannon’?

Paradis401: No. I have not fired or had a gun since I was in the army. But I can really spit.

SAcademy: Still have the brass cannon.

fgherman has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Fabulous!

fgherman: Evening all

KultsiKN: Hi, Felicia!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Felicia

SAcademy: Hello, Felicia.

DavidWrightSr: Now we can really get the lowdown on governments. Is Joel going to be joining us?

fgherman: He’s going out to pick up supper

KultsiKN: Goodness! AK-47 is one fine weapon.

DavidWrightSr: No offense intended to you or to Joel.

fgherman: I think we have the Chinese version of the AK-47

DavidWrightSr: Sorry I couldn’t get Thursday’s log uploaded. Tripod has been giving me trouble all day.

Paradis401: Won’t have guns around my house,,, but as I said… I can spit real good.

KultsiKN: Our army uses our own version of it. It’s good, accurate, seldom jams, easy to fix…

DavidWrightSr: The preferred gun of General Lee in ‘Guns of the South’

Paradis401: Oh. I do have two real good bows. Donno if I can still string em though.

DavidWrightSr: until he realized what kind of people were providing him with them.

DavidWrightSr: Felicia. are you familiar with out topic for tonight?

Paradis401: General Lee had an AK-47?

fgherman: Not really

DavidWrightSr: In ‘Guns of the South’ by Turtledove

Paradis401: Thanks.

KultsiKN: Alternate history?

DavidWrightSr: Bunch of South African white supremicists went back in time to change the outcome of the war between the states

fgherman: I love alternate history

DavidWrightSr: Me too

Paradis401: I love any kind of History.

KultsiKN: How’s Joel’s book coming along, Felicia?

fgherman: Be doing better if his computer had been working

fgherman: Just got back from the shop last night

KultsiKN: MS hiccup?

fgherman: hardware problems, hopefully corrected

KultsiKN: Happens. Usually at the most inconvenient times.

fgherman: Too true

DavidWrightSr: Hope he had good backup

fgherman: Incredibly redundant back-up

KultsiKN: Good.

KultsiKN: Too often it’s a corrupted disk and a corrupted backup.

fgherman: Just a corrupted writer

Paradis401: That’s why I back up all my files to CD.

KultsiKN: Mirror RAID is the cheapest nowadays.

fgherman: We just set up a RAID system

KultsiKN: with disks starting at 20G the CD’s just can’t cope.

DavidWrightSr: Any more comments on topic?

KultsiKN: About government?

fgherman: Hey, big government is back

DavidWrightSr: In particular, the various forms that Robert wrote about.

DavidWrightSr: and why?

Paradis401: I wonder if Athene wasn’t a big part of the government on Tertius.

KultsiKN: I feel that the uppermost government in those books was self-government.

AGplusone: how ’bout: Government is a figment of our imagination, designed to entertain and amuse us, at every evening in Tunnel in the Sky ….?

KultsiKN: WB, David.

Paradis401: Came back through the Tunnel AG?

AGplusone: And that when the rubber has to met the road, responsible leaders take over, act as dictators, and then retire like Cincinatus. Thanks.

AGplusone: meet

AGplusone: And that the problems of government arise when people forget that’s it’s supposed to be an amusement, not an addiction.

KultsiKN: Isn’t that how it should happen?

AGplusone: Look to the juveniles, I always say.

Paradis401: How about the government of the Martians in Red Planet and Stranger?

KultsiKN: That’s what I meant some lines previous.

AGplusone: And that government leaders get in trouble when they forget to enlist the help of their followers … but instead are out there fighting with the chads themselves.

SAcademy: Now that was an anarchy.

Paradis401: Yup!

AGplusone: Chad was Jock’s little brother, or was that a crony?

AGplusone: Bruce …

AGplusone: And to complete my analogy, Dub-yah is getting into trouble by trying to fix this thing hisself

KultsiKN: 😀

AGplusone: as if it’s a political campaign.

Paradis401: Numnuts despotic nepotism?

SAcademy: He needs to get rid of his national security adviser.

AGplusone: Condelessa … what else is new?

fgherman: He needs to get rid of his Secretary of State

Paradis401: Yaymen to that.

AGplusone: Except the scary thought is he’s doing what they wish because he can’t think of anything better.

KultsiKN: The next step: he needs to get rid of.

Paradis401: Does that man remember where they put his silverware?

fgherman: He needs to hire Guiliani

AGplusone: “Dazed and confused” Five of his daddy’s cronies elected him … and we’re going to have to suffer.

Paradis401: That might help.

fgherman: I’m not sure there’s anyone around who could do better under the circumstances

SAcademy: Does that mean that everyone here is of a single mind?

fgherman: And remember, I despise the man

AGplusone: that’s a real scary thought, Felicia

fgherman: Tell me about it

Paradis401: It’s frightnight!

KultsiKN: The problem is: you (as the Us of A) have no definite enemy.

fgherman: He’s having greatness thrust upon him; I hope he lives up to it.

AGplusone: or the entire culture is the enemy, take your pick …

SAcademy: Right, Kultsi!

AGplusone: and, if so, there’s only one humane solution to that.

SAcademy: What will happen if the Florida election is turned upside down?

AGplusone: Unless we want to plow their fields under and sow salt

fgherman: So, how about that social contract?

AGplusone: I dunno … alterate theories of history are fun to consider but only if there’s a point.

SAcademy: Which one, Des Cartes?

fgherman: Hey the Carthaginians didn’t bother the Romans after that

Paradis401: Miami will move to Cuba?

AGplusone: Sumbuddy is going to have to have greatness thrust upon them

SAcademy: You can’t mean Castro!

AGplusone: he deserves them and vis-a-versa

Paradis401: No. I was just kidding. What about the Florida election?

fgherman: It’s seems to me from the reading that Robert Heinlein was a big believer in the social contract

fgherman: brb

AGplusone: I think we have a social contract, one that demands to be followed, and it sez: Congress declares wars

SAcademy: The results of the Florida presidential election will be made public on Monday

SAcademy: Right, David!

KultsiKN: About time

AGplusone: what: they have the real results compiled by whom?

Paradis401: And then?

AGplusone: nuthin’ changes … we go on

SAcademy: I don’t know who did it. The results will be out Monday.

fgherman: They did vote to give the president leeway to conduct this action

DavidWrightSr: And then. nothing. It means absolutely nothing. Bush is the president and will be until either next election or the one after that.

Paradis401: Sad. And scary too.

AGplusone: when?

AGplusone: in ’72?

KultsiKN: A declaration of war would be alright — but upon whom?

fgherman: Right after the WTC & pentagon attacks

AGplusone: de facto government of Afganistan would do for starters

SAcademy: That is what I’ve been saying, Kultsi.

KultsiKN: Agree.

AGplusone: they passed a resolution?

fgherman: yes

AGplusone: saying what?

fgherman: I don’t remember exactly, I’ll go look it up.

AGplusone: that doesn’t comply with the 72 law

SAcademy: Is that the War Powers Act?

AGplusone: that requires a report in 60 days and either a Declaration of War, or Congress decision to allow the President another 60 days, or withdrawal.

AGplusone: yes

SAcademy: I don’t know the provisions of that Act.

Paradis401: Instead of MUSH we get mush-mouthing.

DavidWrightSr: In order not to limit our eventual targets, a declaration of war would have to be pretty general, wouldn’t it?

DavidWrightSr: or make a new one each time we target someone else?

SAcademy: How can a president, or even Congress delcare war against a government that doesn’t exist?

SAcademy: Call it Bin Laden.

Paradis401: Unfortunately, like drugs, the terrorist have infiltrated everywhere.

DavidWrightSr: I understand we did it against the Barbary Pirates who were not a government

AGplusone: 50 U.S.C.§ 1541et seq if you must read it

AGplusone: Actually, we’ve declared war only five times in our history

AGplusone: despite sending troops in over 120 times

AGplusone: that was one of the reasons they passed the War Powers Act in 1972

KultsiKN: David, your font…

SAcademy: High time, too!

AGplusone: Congress can do whatever it wishes. I declare this a WAR is all they must say.

AGplusone: that better Kultsi?

KultsiKN: much

SAcademy: Yes!!!

KultsiKN: I think what’s established this far:

AGplusone: Call bin Laden the de facto government of Afghanistan, call it a war against the Taliban, Al Qaida, or whomever you wish. It’s a war because Congress sez so … lookie there, see the soldiers march off, darling …

KultsiKN: 1) Osama bin Laden is behind the WTC attack

SAcademy: You know that for sure, Kultsi?

SAcademy: We need proof.

KultsiKN: Hasn’t he admitted to that?

AGplusone: If he didn’t admit to it on TV after the attacks Ginny, he deserves to get what he gets based on his stupidity

SAcademy: Not that I know of.

AGplusone: What he said was good enough for me

DavidWrightSr: As I understand it, he virtually admitted to it on one of his tapes.

DavidWrightSr: Although, he is denying it now.

AGplusone: and that’s good enough … I’m not trying a case, I’m conducting (or urging the conducting of) a war

AGplusone: doesn’t require full constitutional due process …

SAcademy: Not only that, but we paid for it all through oil purchases

AGplusone: an equivocal admission is enough for me …

KultsiKN: 2) Taleban has stated to be fully in support of bin Laden

AGplusone: sounds like the Axis to me

Paradis401: It’s just back to the days of Vietnam. Pretend action while soldiers die.

AGplusone: That’s why I want a declaration of war, so the President can have ‘greatness thrust’ upon him if he continues this … and you know exactly where it’s going to be thrust

KultsiKN: 3) Afghanistan is one helluva hard nut to crack

SAcademy: Is this insurrection or sedition?

AGplusone: ‘ … it’s a hard knock life for us … ‘ all wars are hard nuts to crack.

AGplusone: no wars are won on the cheap

AGplusone: except Grenadas

Paradis401: It’s anger here, methinks. Justifiably so.

KultsiKN: Many have tried, none has succeeded.

AGplusone: Russia thought they’d crack the Mannerheim Line cheaply, din’ they, K?

KultsiKN: Touché

KultsiKN: ’twasn’t the line, ’twas the guys.

AGplusone: so instead of a ‘new kind of war’ that Shrub can ignore when it suits him, I was Congress to declare a War and tell him that’s his job, not finagling tax breaks for his cronies

KultsiKN: I agree David. It would be better that way.

AGplusone: Lyndon Johnson screwed up Vietnam by spending most of his time trying to advance The Great Society … can’t we learn from that?

AGplusone: focus …

Paradis401: Obviously Bush can’t see it. Too many trees?

AGplusone: sure

AGplusone: and not a clue how to lead

Paradis401: God help us!

KultsiKN: A declaration of war would give the acts of the US another kind of legality.

AGplusone: but he’s a nice smarmy sort who looks good on camera

AGplusone: exactly, K

KultsiKN: Now, it’s like poking a finger into a dark hole… do I need to spec more…

AGplusone: and what, exactly, do we gain from not declaring war?

AGplusone: “we” not Bush

Paradis401: Nothing. We lose a lot.

KultsiKN: Illwill.

AGplusone: Ill will from whom?

KultsiKN: The Rest of the World

AGplusone: do we lose it, or gain it, from not declaring war?

Paradis401: We gain contempt by inactivity.

AGplusone: I think so … paper tigers galore …

KultsiKN: Sorry, David; read you wrong. If you do not declare war, you lose.

Paradis401: I agree with Kultsi.

AGplusone: we lose what … good will or ill will?

KultsiKN: Good will

AGplusone: we lose good will the longer Bush procrastinates

AGplusone: okay, I agree

AGplusone: the rest of the world is wondering what I’m wondering “What in the hell is he doing?

AGplusone: and why?”

KultsiKN: Yup.

Paradis401: As the oriental would say… we lose/have lost Face.

KultsiKN: In fact, that’s not only in the Orient.

Paradis401: True.

AGplusone: Well, you can’t fool all of the people some of the time if you’re simple and straight-forward …

AGplusone: and ask for a Declaration of War.

AGplusone: Maybe the truth of the matter is it wasn’t in his plans for a war to be thrust upon him and he’s awaiting instructions from his minders.

SAcademy: How many more days dies he have to ask?

AGplusone: September 11 plus 60 days

SAcademy: It’s almost two onths now.

SAcademy: Tomorrow in fact.

AGplusone: very close indeed

DavidWrightSr: Wouldn’t that be 60 days from our first attacks on them?

AGplusone: if there was a resoltion as Felicia suggests, perhaps sixty days from it, or sixty days from what

David suggests

SAcademy: Don’t know.

AGplusone: but SOON

SAcademy: Tomoorw is 60 days.

Paradis401: Mid-next week?

AGplusone: write your congressmen folks

AGplusone: and senators

SAcademy: What can they do to Bush?

SAcademy: Remove him?

KultsiKN: BTW: if there is a declaration of war, I’d expect some difficulties in continuing communication like this.

AGplusone: exactly

AGplusone: I doubt it

Paradis401: That worked real well with Clinton.

AGplusone: well, you simply don’t impeach a president for a blow job Denis

Paradis401: I would.

Paradis401: For being stupid.

AGplusone: well, not enough people agree …

SAcademy: It’s simply a law, not the Constitution.

AGplusone: and all presidents are stupid … they ran didn’t they?

DavidWrightSr: You are not going to get any impeachment from this congress David. Not with the approval rating he has now.

SAcademy: It’s dwindling.

AGplusone: But give him time … the only reason people ‘approve’ of him now is they’re trying to support the national interest in defense of this attack.

AGplusone: If he continues to piddle around …

DavidWrightSr: What more, besides a declaration of war, would you want him to do?

AGplusone: act like a fucking leader, for goodness sakes, instead of a puppet

Paradis401: I think this nation is still in shock. Wonder when they’ll come out of it.

SAcademy: Who is running the country?

AGplusone: we have, or we don’t have, a serious threat against our security

DavidWrightSr: And do what?

AGplusone: either he does something serious about it, instead of paying lip service to the threat …

DavidWrightSr: What?

SAcademy: Does all this surprise you, Kultsi?

AGplusone: or he should resign. Ask for a declaration of War. Ask for a million volunteers. Mobilize. Fight and end the WAR.

KultsiKN: Not really

SAcademy: I thought it might. It’s free speech.

Paradis401: I agree with AG’s last comment.

AGplusone: Then he can get back to being politically correct and paying back his daddy’s cronies for influencing his election.

KultsiKN: Ginny, don’t you think we have it as well?

SAcademy: Of course you do.

DavidWrightSr: I don’t agree. What would we do with a million volunteers?

SAcademy: Keep them from staarving. ddavitt has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Or are you expecting to invade Iraq, Iran, and everybody else? ddavitt: Hi everyone

AGplusone: Oh, we could train about forty divisions of infantry, land them in Haiffa, and look around to see what needs to be sat on ….

KultsiKN: Hello, Jane! ddavitt: Finally got the kids to bed…

SAcademy: Hello, Jane. ddavitt: David should be landing in San Jose soon David

AGplusone: exactly … why do it again and again and again … you want war on the cheap, Dave?

Paradis401: Hey Jane. We have war on the bench here. ddavitt: It sounds fierce! What have you been discussing?

KultsiKN: War

Paradis401: I’m ready to cry or enlist. ddavitt: Not government?

KultsiKN: errrh… government

AGplusone: Well, in the final estimate, that’s what we have governments for … all the rest is amusement that you discuss over the fire in Tunnel in the Sky, each evening. ddavitt: Can you have a war without one?

AGplusone: not very well

AGplusone: At least one side has to have one

DavidWrightSr: No I don’t but I don’t think that it would work the way you think it would. Right now we nominally have most of the Muslim world more or less on our side. Get them all mad and there are a billion of them.

AGplusone: So …

DavidWrightSr: I don’t want a billion terrorists out there. Just a few hundred or thousands are enought

SAcademy: Does everyone think we should post this discussion?

Paradis401: Perhaps not.

DavidWrightSr: Why not. as you said ‘free speech’

AGplusone: I’m not after their “hearts and minds”

David. I think the appropriate part that I want causes them to follow you wherever you want.

KultsiKN: No. Much too sensitive.

AGplusone: I don’t care.

KultsiKN: There Be Realities.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t count on it.

Paradis401: Ok. Why not post it. Freedom of speech. I’m not scared of mamma Bush.

AGplusone: Neither am I

AGplusone: nor of Osuma bin Maniac

Paradis401: I think we have a majority if favor of posting here.

AGplusone: The problem we have is: either this is a war, and to be conducted as one, and won; or this is a scam. I don’t think three planes flying into the towers and the pentagon was a scam.

Paradis401: Ginny. Advice please?

AGplusone: But I think our President needs some guidence from the trenches, not from the ivory towers.

AGplusone: Nor from the PTB

SAcademy: I feel that many of us have been somewhat indiscreet, and if this IS warm we coould wind up in jail

AGplusone: not it’s not

DavidWrightSr: David I agree it was no scam. I just don’t think that what you are suggesting would do any good in the long run.

AGplusone: well, as I said, it’s a problem that we either face now, or face again and again and again …

AGplusone: I’d rather solve it now

SAcademy: Agree.

AGplusone: They can either join in and be Adenhauers or they can get out of the way …

KultsiKN: I with AG — this terrorism thing has been going on for far too long.

DavidWrightSr: I agree, but massive invasion of the middle east through to middle asia is going to solve it.

DavidWrightSr: is — is not

AGplusone: but I think the only solution that is a solution is land, seize the ground, and administer the occupation exactly as was done 1945- ???? until they don’t have any more terrorist weeds in their garden.

KultsiKN: I suspect most Muslims do not agree with it either.

SAcademy: Certainly not the Indonesians!

AGplusone: If it’s done in the middle East, do you think the Indonesians are going to miss the words on the wall?

KultsiKN: Or Malesians or the ones in S’pore — it interferes with making a buck.

DavidWrightSr: That’s what I said. They don’t agree with, but if the bulk of muslims really do perceive this as a war against Moslem, they will

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: It’s not a war against Muslims in the sense that it wasn’t a war against Germans and Japanese … if that heartens you.

KultsiKN: So, it needs to be a war against terrorism, and stated as such.

AGplusone: But it is a war against terrorism in exactly the same way it was a war against the Nazis and the Code of Bushido

DavidWrightSr: You and I know its not, but if *they* really perceive it is then that will change

AGplusone: and if all the lawyers in Congress can’t come up with the appropriate language I think a man in the street might give them a hand.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: or maybe a bright twelve year old

joelrmpls has entered the room.

SAcademy: Bumped. First time in a long time!

AGplusone: Welcome to “Operation Haiffa” Joel

fgherman: Howdy Joel

SAcademy: Hi, Joel

KultsiKN: Hello, Joel!

AGplusone: Felicia give you a log to read?

AGplusone: I say again, David: “I don’t want their hearts and minds” We wasted two wars doing that. I want that other part, and their hearts and minds will follow.

fgherman: er, no

ddavitt: Think I’ll go and unwind with a vodka; catch you all later.

AGplusone: We wasted the best efforts of two generations ….

fgherman: Good night

ddavitt has left the room.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

AGplusone: Goodnight Jane

Paradis401: Back to the question of posting. I think Ginny has a point in being cautious. Some vulnerability here for some of us here. Me. I don’t care.

AGplusone: I don’t either

AGplusone: I’ve said what I’ve said publicly on posts

fgherman: My views are known

AGplusone: makes no difference to me

Paradis401: Did we scare anybody off?

KultsiKN: Can’t hurt me

fgherman: (and to the left of Joel’s)

AGplusone: I dunno …

AGplusone: I think maybe we bored Jane

fgherman: Canadians…

Paradis401: No, I think we may have scared her. I lived through the War Powers Act in Canada.

AGplusone: I think Dave just got bumped

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Are you still here?

AGplusone: speak of devil … yes, I’m still here

fgherman: yes

Joelrmpls: Hell, Jerry Pournelle’s views on some matters are to the left of mine.

AGplusone: “Sing Heavenly Muse ….”

fgherman: now *that’s* a scary thought

Joelrmpls: But, then again, he used to be a communist . . .

Paradis401: Isn’t Jerry an old Navy man?

SAcademy: I think “Arma virumque cano” is more appropriate.

Joelrmpls: Army

AGplusone: well, Genghis Khan’s views are somewhat to the left of some of yours … Jarhead, I thought

AGplusone: Me, I’m a bona fide certified liberal, ask anyone!

Paradis401: Thanks. Cave canis? Ginny.

Joelrmpls: Nope; USArmy artillery.

SAcademy: No, Jerry was Army

fgherman: You’ve just been accused of being a conservative, Joel

AGplusone: okay

Joelrmpls: In some ways, I am.

Joelrmpls: I think of myself as a Jackson Democrat, though.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

SAcademy: It’s cave canem.

Joelrmpls: Scoop Jackson, not Jesse.

Paradis401: Not if you only have one.

AGplusone: “I sing of men and arms …. ”

fgherman: You sure it’s not Andrew?

SAcademy: Right, David.

AGplusone: or, to retell my joke “A man went out with a gun and a dog.”

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

Paradis401: Now you sound like Lazarus.

DavidWrightSr: Wow. Something strange going on. I’m getting bumped all over the place

AGplusone: It’s Bush ….

AGplusone: trying to stop this!!!

DavidWrightSr: David can you send me log to fill what I lost

AGplusone: Absolutely.

KultsiKN: DW, I have the complete log, as does AG…

Paradis401: It’s Big Mamma.

AGplusone: Big Nanny

DavidWrightSr: He wouldn’t have bumped me. I’ve been defending him:-)

DavidWrightSr: Or is that just typical government efficiency?

AGplusone: but he can’t tell the difference between

Davids

Paradis401: I for one, forgive you David W.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

AGplusone:

Paradis401: 😀

AGplusone: 😉

SAcademy: Those don’t show ona log.

AGplusone: I was, as all can see, heavily influenced by Warner Brothers cartoons

DavidWrightSr: Of course having the complete log won’t do any good if I can’t get them uploaded

fgherman: a very venerable influence

DavidWrightSr: They do show, but only as ; an ) and so on

Paradis401: They so nubile… like the shrubs!

DavidWrightSr: If I had the time, I could replace the characters with .gif files, but time is of a shortage around here

AGplusone: ah, yes … well, next meeting is going to be “Pretty Boys in Heinlein” ….

fgherman: I don’t know of a place where time is of a longage

KultsiKN: TEFL

DavidWrightSr: sehr wahr.

AGplusone: and Denis is going to help me co-host, but I’ll make a leadoff tomorrow …

fgherman: Like Oscar “Scar” Gordon?

AGplusone: Like him, and a few others

Paradis401: You’ll like the next topic… felicia.

SAcademy: Nite all. Have to run.

fgherman: Goodnight Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Nite Ginny.

Paradis401: Bye Ginny.

AGplusone: sorta twist on the Heinlein uberWoooMan

KultsiKN: Nite, Ginny

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: Night Ginny

fgherman: I’m only hot for a man’s mind, ask Joel

AGplusone: Well, you don’t know me!

Paradis401: Make that Pretty Men David.

fgherman: Big IQs make me swoon

AGplusone: eh … ‘pretty boys’ vs. ‘pretty men’ … watzdadif?

Paradis401: Felicia?

fgherman: Yes?

AGplusone: I better stay at least 1,000 miles away then … my IQ is nearly as big as my ego

fgherman: I’ve been married to Joel for 23 years

AGplusone: lucky guy

fgherman: He is

Paradis401: Yes!

AGplusone: fortunately I have an evil overlord spousal unit

AGplusone: for the past 37

fgherman: Darth Wife?

AGplusone: sorta

DavidWrightSr: It’s 10 past the hour. Any more thoughts on Robert’s governments?

AGplusone: they’re fun!

KultsiKN: Was sitting beside my ex last night

fgherman: His governments seem to work

KultsiKN: listening to the concert our daughter and the group were giving

AGplusone: to provoke thought

fgherman: Which seems overly optimistic

AGplusone: Thank you all for suffering through my current hobby horse …. 😉

Paradis401: Well we tried. Good discussion!

KultsiKN: He did have a point over the RL govenrments.

AGplusone: I felt it fun

KultsiKN: He got to invent them 😉

AGplusone: and I’ll see you all on the cartoon hour in two weeks …

Paradis401: Amen to that!

AGplusone: reading Le Carré’s latest this week

AGplusone: La Carré’s?

KultsiKN: F or M?

Paradis401: M… Le

AGplusone: male … the Sumthin’ or other Gardner

fgherman: night all

fgherman has left the room.

AGplusone: nite all

DavidWrightSr: Nite David

KultsiKN: Nite!

Paradis401: Night all. Thanks.

DavidWrightSr: Kultsi send me your copy of the log too please, in case david forgets.

KultsiKN: K!

Paradis401 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Not that I think he will, just want to be sure.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:15 P.M. EST

AGplusone: got it … sent

DavidWrightSr: Sorry I thought you had already left.

AGplusone: not yet, but ….. G’nite from New York,

David

DavidWrightSr: I’m gone Folks.

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: night Kultsi, Joel

KultsiKN: I think you have it all, Dave?

DavidWrightSr: I’m going tohave to fill in the part when I got bumped.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 11-08-2001 09:00 P.M. EST Governments in Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 11-08-2001 09:00 P.M. EST

Governments in Heinlein

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Since arrangements for a guest visit are still pending, this next chat, Thursday, November 8, from 9 PM to midnight, EST, and Saturday, November 10, from 5 to 8 PM, has to be announced rather briefly — only four days left.

Dave Wright suggested the topic:

” … look at all of the various forms of

government presented in Heinlein’s works. Parliamentary Monarchy in Double

Star, Absentee dictatorship combined with anarchy in The Moon is a Harsh

Mistress, Imperial Council in Starman Jones. Various ‘democratic’

governments as in SIASL, Starship Troopers, benevolent dictatorships as in

TEFL and so on and so forth. Do you think that we could do anything with

that? Seems to me that he showed a lot of different alternatives.”

Not to mention totalitarian religious oligarchies in “If This Goes On …,” an isolationist pre-McKinley “Christian” democracy in _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, and others. Me, I like the other government in _Job_, the one run by Jerry Farnsworth, because there’s little doubt about who’s in charge and where it’s going.

In any event, a leadoff post is what was needed; and Dave being a little busy asked someone to do it. There it is: right there above.

David M. Silver

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm

“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”

–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)

Lt.(jg) USN R’td

What I wonder is; did Heinlein pick the sorts of government to fit the plot or the other way round? Did he decide he wanted to explore the implications of different governmental styles and how they would impact on the characters? Or was it simply a case of making it different from the US norm to be interesting and thought provoking?

We could also look at what happens when people start from scratch; the pure democracy planet in TEFL, the style of government the students had in Tunnel, the three very different sorts inside Coventry and that of the Covenant itself. I suppose all they have in common is that there _is_ a government….until we get to Cat and the society that isn’t even as well organised as an anarchy. Was Heinlein implying that less is more for a truly civilised society? Or was the, to me, awful state of affairs on Tertius, a warning?

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Jane:

>I suppose all they have in common is that there _is_ a government….until we get

>to Cat and the society that isn’t even as well organised as an anarchy. Was

>Heinlein implying that less is more for a truly civilised society? Or was the, to

>me, awful state of affairs on Tertius, a warning?

Why do you say “awful state of affairs,” Jane?

Straight question, not a critique of any sort.

David M. Silver

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm

“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”

–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)

Lt.(jg) USN R’td

“David M. Silver” wrote:

>Jane:

>

>>I suppose all they have in common is that there _is_ a government….until we get

>>to Cat and the society that isn’t even as well organised as an anarchy. Was

>>Heinlein implying that less is more for a truly civilised society? Or was the, to

>>me, awful state of affairs on Tertius, a warning?

>

>Why do you say “awful state of affairs,” Jane?

>

>Straight question, not a critique of any sort.

>–

>

Oh, just that queue jumper death that we’ve discussed before here. I think it came over as a frontier society – without any Shane’s.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>>Why do you say “awful state of affairs,” Jane?

>>

>

>Oh, just that queue jumper death that we’ve discussed before here.

Wasn’t the queue jumper execution (to which not everybody reacted as badly as you did, Jane) on the Luna of the centennial of the Lunar revolution? Not Tertius, as I recall.

Bill
BPRAL22169 wrote:

>>> Why do you say “awful state of affairs,” Jane?

>>>

>>

>>Oh, just that queue jumper death that we’ve discussed before here.

>

>Wasn’t the queue jumper execution (to which not everybody reacted as badly as

>you did, Jane) on the Luna of the centennial of the Lunar revolution? Not

>Tertius, as I recall.

>

>Bill

No, it was on Tertius when Gwen is shopping for shoes for Richard, now he has two feet again.

And I don’t care what anyone else thought; I was giving my take on it…..again

 

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article, Jane Davitt writes…

>

>What I wonder is; did Heinlein pick the sorts of government to fit the plot or the

>other way round? Did he decide he wanted to explore the implications of different

>governmental styles and how they would impact on the characters? Or was it simply

>a case of making it different from the US norm to be interesting and thought

>provoking?

I think the correct answer to your first two questions is, it depends. Sometimes the nature of the government plays an important role in the plot, as in “If This Goes On-” or TMiaHM. Sometimes is it an important or even key element of the theme, but not essential to the plot, as in /Starship Troopers/. And other times it is thrown in for flavor, as with the “balancing” penal code in one of the worlds in TNotB.

But in all cases it is thought provoking.

>I suppose all they have in common is that there _is_ a government….until we get

>to Cat and the society that isn’t even as well organised as an anarchy.

Now, now. “Anarchy is not Chaos.” Nor is anarchy hell, though both Hell’s have a fair amount of order. 😉

Gordon Sollars

gsollars@pobox.com

Gordon Sollars notes:

>Jane Davitt writes…

>>

>>What I wonder is; did Heinlein pick the sorts of government to fit the plot or the

>>other way round? Did he decide he wanted to explore the implications of different

>>governmental styles and how they would impact on the characters? Or was it simply

>>a case of making it different from the US norm to be interesting and thought provoking?

>

>I think the correct answer to your first two questions is, it depends.

>

I agree with Gordon.

>Sometimes the nature of the government plays an important role in the

>plot, as in “If This Goes On-” or TMiaHM.

An example that’s integral, and germane to a situation that may be facing us today, is the absentee colonial exploitation in “Logic of Empire,” perhaps _Red Planet_ and _Between Planets_, where, if not a prison colony, then certainly a plantation economy was created, ignoring all else but ‘trade.’ It’s clear that the trade in “Logic” is agricultural, not too clear what it is in either of the juveniles noted above; and, of course, in _TMIAHM_, the exploitation is again agricultural.

What if the trade was petrochemicals? Arthur Clarke wrote one in which Titan, iirc, was being mined and exploited for rocket fuels. I don’t remember a native population that was exploited or ignored to produce it, as perhaps one might argue the French exploited the working classes of Vietnam for rubber, or perhaps North America and Europe and a few other industrial countries are exploiting the Middle East for oil; but one wonders how RAH might have set up a “Logic of Empire” in that situation.

Would he have had the rebelling masses ‘throw rocks’ at Earth to force the chartered colonial exploiters and governments of Earth controlled by them to reward them with independence?

>Sometimes is it an important

>or even key element of the theme, but not essential to the plot, as in

>/Starship Troopers/. And other times it is thrown in for flavor, as with

>

>the “balancing” penal code in one of the worlds in TNotB.

>

>But in all cases it is thought provoking.

>…

>> I suppose all they have in common is that there _is_ a government….until

>we get

>> to Cat and the society that isn’t even as well organised as an anarchy.

>

>Now, now. “Anarchy is not Chaos.” Nor is anarchy hell, though both

>Hell’s have a fair amount of order. 😉

Provided you have Jerry Farnsworth in charge of one Hell; but in ‘pure’ anarchy, if there can exist such a thing, what requires that any amount of order be present, Gordon? And do you think a ‘pure’ anarchy appears in any RAH work, even as a thought experiment?

David M. Silver

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm

“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”

–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)

Lt.(jg) USN R’td

In article, David M. Silver writes…

>Gordon Sollars notes:

>>I think the correct answer to your first two questions is, it depends.

>>

>I agree with Gordon.

Well, I’m glad we can get this far. 😉

>What if the trade was petrochemicals? Arthur Clarke wrote one in which Titan,

>iirc, was being mined and exploited for rocket fuels. I don’t remember a native

>population that was exploited or ignored to produce it, as perhaps one might

>argue the French exploited the working classes of Vietnam for rubber, or

>perhaps North America and Europe and a few other industrial countries are

>exploiting the Middle East for oil; but one wonders how RAH might have set up a

>”Logic of Empire” in that situation.

I’m not sure I follow this. The government of Saudi Arabia nationalized the oil fields there. What sort of “exploiting” of these fields by North Americans and Europeans do you have in mind? Or are you thinking of a “what if” in which the nationalization did not occur?

How about this for debate: The inability – or as some would argue, the unwillingness – of the U.S. to defend those oil fields from nationalization is consistent with Mr. Heinlein’s fictional examples of the failure of absentee ownership leading to revolution.

>>Now, now. “Anarchy is not Chaos.” Nor is anarchy hell, though both

>>Hell’s have a fair amount of order. 😉

>

>Provided you have Jerry Farnsworth in charge of one Hell;

Well, the only other time Hell appears is “Magic, Inc.”, isn’t it? (Or am I forgetting something?) And the Hell in Magic has its “customs” which we are told are inviolable, even though physical “laws” are not.

>but in ‘pure’

>anarchy, if there can exist such a thing, what requires that any amount of

>order be present, Gordon?

I should be clear that I by “anarchy” I mean a “propertarian” anarchy, such as that described by David Friedman or Murray Rothbard. I think that there are good reasons from evolutionary biology to argue that any anarchy will have some, and perhaps a great deal of, order. But, of course, if “anarchy” is used not to describe the absence of government, but instead to /name/ a condition of disorder, then we just have a semantic problem. But, I’m happy to use anyone’s definitions.

>And do you think a ‘pure’ anarchy appears in any RAH

>work, even as a thought experiment?

> A rather “pure” anarchy, in my terms, is the Loonie society of TMiaHM. It is true that it is embedded in a larger social structure with a government, but this has little effect on the day-to-day lives of the Loonies, so much so that Prof and Mike have to work hard to rouse them to revolution. Mannie tells us that there is no government, but there are well-established rules, and a formal way to adjudicate disputes over these rules (as we learn when Mannie “goes judge”), even if the formal method is not always used. (It is not always used in non-anarchic societies, either. 😉 )

Gordon Sollars

gsollars@pobox.com

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘lo, David

DavidWrightSr: hi

AGplusone: I’m going to turn on the news and watch … how’s it going?

DavidWrightSr: Hard to type. am holding an angry chihuahua while we have a guest. Be back shortly.

AGplusone: I’d tell you the joke about evolution and chihuahua … but I think you already know it.

DavidWrightSr: I’m back. put him outside.

AGplusone: good place … nice little dogs but a bit highstrung

DavidWrightSr: especially with strangers or people he hasn’t seen in a long time. what was that about evolution?

AGplusone: typical newsgroup argument: one side arguing evolution and natural selection, other side against … said, how can you say that Chihuahau evolved from wolf, if that were true you’d be claiming that if we let them run free after time

AGplusone: they’d become wolves again. answer was: no, cat food.

DavidWrightSr: LOL

DavidWrightSr: I had ours fixed. Doc said it would calm him down. I couldn’t tell any difference myself

AGplusone: only a cat owner would repeat that …

DavidWrightSr: Our cat is 21 1/2 years old. took her to the vets the other day and they had to show everyone there. She was one of their first customers.

AGplusone: fixing doesn’t necesarily calm anything down. My tom is still territorial as can be. Had a fight in the back alley with another last night.

AGplusone: wow! very old cat.

DavidWrightSr: She was getting all lumpy in the hair and we couldn’t seem to clean it. Vet gave us new type of brush and cleaned her real good. Now she is all silky again

AGplusone: great

DavidWrightSr: Not a lot of posting on the subject. I started writing out some stuff yesterday, but didn’t get it all done. so didn’t post it.

AGplusone: never hurts to post it late … we can take it up Saturday

AGplusone: I’m really thinking about doing away with the Nav Bar on the website entirely

AGplusone: Simply put links at top and bottom of the pages

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I was away. I’

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got to let my wife check her messages so I’ll be away again for a few minutes

AGplusone: ‘kay

Paradis401 has entered the room.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi all

AGplusone: G’evening, Denis, Jane … :-)

AGplusone: DW is afk for a bit

Paradis401: Hi David, Jane

ddavitt: Well, we’ve had a stressful time

AGplusone: and Ginny is in the arms of Morpheus, asked me to give everyone her regards and regrets

ddavitt: Ma collapsed last night and had to be rushed to the emergency vet

AGplusone: Oh, horrible!

ddavitt: Macallan

ddavitt: He is home now; Doug, our vet thinks it is kidney stones

AGplusone: Dave and I were just talking about our cats.

ddavitt: He was panting and nearly had a heart failure

ddavitt: Ended up on oxygen

AGplusone: Can they use any technique to dissolve the stones?

ddavitt: Puzzled the vets no end till they got the urine analysis back

ddavitt: Yes; he is on medication and special food

AGplusone: hope then!

ddavitt: They think the pain caused the seizures

ddavitt: Well, it’s good to have him home; touch and go last night

AGplusone: Just like humans. Just glad stones don’t run in my family.

ddavitt: I can imagine

ddavitt: How are both your cats then?

AGplusone: Dave report his: 21 -1/2 years old seems fine. Just got back from the vet. Mine got into a fight with another Tom last night. He won, but anyone who tells you gelding a tom calms them down is a little off.

ddavitt: I know when my two fight they seem pretty male:-)

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Territorial as can be.

DavidWrightSr: Hi. I’m back. As I said, same thing goes for chihuahuas

ddavitt: Well, I enjoyed the musical ep of Buffy:-)

ddavitt: Got a telesales person in the middle

AGplusone: Really, was that this week?

DavidWrightSr: durn. I missed it. I am not a buffy fan, but I wanted to see that one.

ddavitt: Soon as she called me Mrs Davitt I snapped, Excuse me? We’re BUSY! and slammed down the phone. I still feel guilty

ddavitt: But why do they call so late?

ddavitt: It was great

AGplusone: Whatever for … they want to catch you at home.

ddavitt: It shows again tomorrow night but will be cut

AGplusone: I must look then

ddavitt: As it ran 8 mins over and they can’t let that happen again

DavidWrightSr: Don’t feel guilty about that. It’s what they deserve

ddavitt: You will be missing some good songs from the gossip.

AGplusone: So, did you like my humor about the lovely photo of your beautiful daughter?

ddavitt: You pressed reply all and it went to all my family and friends:-)

ddavitt: Mum was a tad puzzled…

ddavitt: But I explained

AGplusone: :-) and you had to explain ‘me’ to everyone, eh?

ddavitt: David says it looked all blotchy cos I didn’t scan at high resolution

ddavitt: She isn’t really like that

AGplusone: It looked beautiful.

ddavitt: Heh

ddavitt: It was a nice one this year

ddavitt: Must get a group family one done

ddavitt: Sorry daveW; did you want to kick off the chat?

AGplusone: If you send it to me, I promise I won’t reply “all.”

ddavitt: I certainly will.

ddavitt: Wish Stepehn could get the pic page up and running

AGplusone: me too

AGplusone: but he’s studying

AGplusone: or becoming a teenager … take your pick

ddavitt: Yes; that is important too.

AGplusone: maybe he discovered girls

ddavitt: Can anyone else do one? That page has lots of people on it who don’t post now anyway

DavidWrightSr: There is probably a lot more to say on the subject of govts, but I can’t think of anything off the bat. My mind and body are a little tired. Been wrestling with Windoze XP.

AGplusone: wanna learn how to make webpages, Jane …

ddavitt: Too complex for my tiny brain

AGplusone: I tried to be a little provocative with my last post …

ddavitt: I think it’s a great subject

AGplusone: I do too

DavidWrightSr: I haven’t read it yet. just copied it and posted it into the log preparation page.

ddavitt: I just speed read it. Anarchy isn’t chaos? Pretty close tho

ddavitt: Is the idea that we self govern?

ddavitt: Scary thought…

ddavitt: Eleanor would never eat anything but happy meals

AGplusone: Suppose the exploitation was not grain, but oil, and suppose the Authority was a totalitarn government already in place; and suppose the reason they were throwing ‘rocks’ at earth was to cause its gvmts to overthrow the government

ddavitt: watch TV 24/7 and never go to bed

DavidWrightSr: That does sound a bit familiar :-)

AGplusone: of Lunies who were royalty … would we have the Taliban?

ddavitt: Possible.

AGplusone: And would ‘rock throwing’ then be justified? Would RAH so consider it?

ddavitt: Hard to come up with a new system; can realte almost any fictional one to a rl govt

ddavitt: I find it difficult to second guess Heinlein sometimes

ddavitt: He doesn’t jump the way you’d think

ddavitt: Not a predictable person on some issues

AGplusone: I don’t really wonder how he’d jump today; but it’s fun to map out the problem …

AGplusone: “Pearl Harbor” is a pearl harbor, notwithstanding, but …

DavidWrightSr: The reason I thought of the topic was realizing how many different govts he had demonstrated through his works.

ddavitt: There certainly were

AGplusone: What justified ‘throwing rocks’ at Earth’s civilians in Moon that differs from the screwball rationization of the Taliban that we’ll reward them for running planes into our buildings?

DavidWrightSr: from anarchy to absolute despotism and all sorts of varieties between.

ddavitt: Common theme of starvation too

AGplusone: Or is the analogy I’ve drawn up flawed?

ddavitt: But do the taliban think they will be rewarded? Was that their motivation?

DavidWrightSr: There seems to be something funny with the logic, but I can’t put my finger on it yet.

AGplusone: That’s what they purport is their reason?

ddavitt: Yet we cheer for the Loonies

AGplusone: An irrational reason?

ddavitt: They didn’t intend to kill innocents either; they gave warnings

AGplusone: When John Paul Jones raided England, he didn’t intentionally kill innocent civilians.

DavidWrightSr: One difference between the Loonies and the oil producing states is that they, at least the leaders, *don’t* want to stop selling us oil. They would starve it they did

ddavitt: The deaths were the fault of the Earh people with picnic baskets

AGplusone: But knowing human nature … wasn’t that inevitable?

ddavitt: Throwing rocks was the equivalant of jumping up and down and waving, here we are!

DavidWrightSr: Improved the breed.

AGplusone: also some where killed when the CD rockets knocked the rocks off course … that was predictable as well.

AGplusone: were

ddavitt: Earth was indifferent to them; had to make them sit up and take notice

ddavitt: Plus, Earth exiled them; they owed it no favours

AGplusone: US (and Britain) is indifferent to the Middle East, except insofar as it supplies us oil.

ddavitt: It’s different…can’t put my finger on it but it is

AGplusone: So maybe Heinlein’s story is flawed in analogy to the American Revolution?

AGplusone: Unless you consider what happened to the Tories …

ddavitt: It was not a revolution for the same reasons

ddavitt: Americans were fighting for independence but they fought as equals

AGplusone: Well, perhaps, but Taliban pays lip service to ‘freedom’ from the oppression of the Sheiks, etc.

ddavitt: Loonies and taliban are the same in that they are not official rulers

AGplusone: Altho it’s more than merely arguable that they simply wish to impose their own religious oppression.

ddavitt: Which is why neither can go thru the usual diplomatic channels

AGplusone: Well, isn’t it weird that Taliban doesn’t govern the states that produce oil?

AGplusone: It’s as if the Loonies were throwing rocks to force Earth to free Venus!

ddavitt: Of all H’s govt types, are there any that people feel drawn to, in preference to our own?

ddavitt: I don’t know enough about it to comment…I don’t follow news all that much

Paradis401: I very much like Bernardo’s ideas on government.

AGplusone: I rather like his meritocracies …

ddavitt: I don’t like Eleanor watching it and by the time she’s in bed, I’m too tired to stay up and catch the later news

AGplusone: Which ones, Denis?

ddavitt: Nevia was nice…if you’re Jocko

Paradis401: All of them.

AGplusone: Texas is nice if you’re Jerry Farnsworth.

ddavitt: Meritoracies based on intellect or wealth?

AGplusone: mostly duty

ddavitt: Spelling..but you know what i mean

ddavitt: Am i defining it wrongly?

AGplusone: intellect and wealth are too arbitrary

ddavitt: What is one?

ddavitt: I thought it was rule by merit..is that not so?

AGplusone: I like the troopers meritocracy

Paradis401: Me too.

ddavitt: Wealth and lineage have governed rulership for centuries

AGplusone: it doesn’t come to the rich, the bright, the warm bodies, you earn it

AGplusone: by service

ddavitt: Being able to amass wealth is one thing but being born to certain parensts? Hmm

DavidWrightSr: BTW Jane. I heard that there is a big movement in UK to do away with House of Lords as legislators of any sort

Paradis401: Well that’s what happens in the US, we have our own form of royals.

ddavitt: That’s just luck..unless you believe that nobility is something you get in your blood and it can’t be earned or taught

ddavitt: Yes, has been for a while

AGplusone: the difference is: only they can run successfully for office, so far

ddavitt: I think they’ve tried to make it elective instead of inherited

AGplusone: but now, to be elected, $ talks

ddavitt: Not sure of the current position. The two tier system of checks and balances is useful sometimes

ddavitt: But it can tie stuff up; as you find with your senate and congress I suppose

AGplusone: deliberately intended

ddavitt: Filibusters and all that

ddavitt: Good from a libertarian POV if there are less laws

ddavitt: But no so good if they’re laws that are needed ( define needed, jane…)

AGplusone: rarely have a true emergency

DavidWrightSr: I liked idea of one body which did nothing but do away with laws.

ddavitt: Yes!

Paradis401: YES!

ddavitt: Lots on the statute books that are a waste of space

AGplusone: I think Bernardo is an ‘old fraud’ and was simply proposing ideas to be disposed of …

ddavitt: I beleive you can still be arrested in UK for wearing perfume on a Sunday; archaic one

Paradis401: No you don’t – David

ddavitt: useful for the police ; anyone can be guilty of something if they really want ot arrest you

DavidWrightSr: No way. Bernardo was a great man. Up there with the best of them O:-)

ddavitt: Need to spring clean.

AGplusone: Bernardo = bear; de la Paz = of Peace. Beware the Peace of the Bear.

ddavitt: Examine a law a centurty after it’s passed and do away with it if no longer relevant

ddavitt: Ooh, nice one :-)

DavidWrightSr: I’d recommend 10-20 years. Century far too long

ddavitt: Well, has to be a while or there would be chaos

AGplusone: He’s the ivory tower revolutionary, good only to dispose of the status quo … little to offer except theory afterwards, and first to be put against a wall.

ddavitt: Plenty of ancient ones to be getting on with

ddavitt: By the time all the ones about pasturing sheep in the churchyard go, there will be lots of newer ones to get rid of

AGplusone:

Paradis401: Obviously!

DavidWrightSr: I noticed 😀

ddavitt: And you can be a lawyer after a weeks training

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: Prof was a dangerous man; Mike may have assassinated him

AGplusone: I felt that happened.

AGplusone: just as Mike assassinated himself

DavidWrightSr: Hey you guys. You can’t gang up on my hero.

ddavitt: Sorry!

Paradis401: Did Mike really self-assass himself?

AGplusone: I hoped to entice Gordon Sellars in with my last post ….

ddavitt: But would you live in the society he wanted?

DavidWrightSr: His function was to try to get people to think for themselves. Just like RAH himself. Succeeded only in small steps

ddavitt: I think so..like Aivas does in the Pern books

AGplusone: very possibly, Denis. Time to pretend to be dead so they babies can grow up themselves.

Paradis401: Ok, I’ll buy that.

DavidWrightSr: I do agree about Mike.

ddavitt: Like Giles in Buffy; he is leaving so that Buffy can grow up

DavidWrightSr: BRB Folks

ddavitt: Cut the cord…

ddavitt: Can’t have people relying on computers, now can we?

AGplusone: reason I tried to entice Gordon was: I wanted to ask him to find, in RAH, any true anarchist or true libertarian government.

ddavitt: Tertius?

AGplusone: Really, Jane?

AGplusone: howso?

ddavitt: Well, show me a rule or a ruler

AGplusone: Isn’t it a benign dictatorship, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Lazarus Long, who chooses to stay out of things, until or unless it’s time to make an important, critical to survival, decision.

ddavitt: gwen says it’s not as organised as anarchy; make of that what you will

AGplusone: Like: it’s time to move on again

AGplusone: to Quartorius

ddavitt: Don’t think he owns the planet but I’m sure he heavily influences the way it isn’t run

AGplusone: He’s the “Senior” and can always take back the gavel

ddavitt: He’s a big bossy boots

AGplusone: So my thesis is: it’s an artificial anarchy

Paradis401: Bart the Bear?

AGplusone: and Big Senior Is Watching!

ddavitt: Jumping around cos I’m tired and will have to go soon

ddavitt: I like the twist in coventry

ddavitt: Where the “good” govt of the covenant turns out, on closer look, to be pretty awful

ddavitt: Not as bad as the Prophet but not really that much better than the three in Coventry

AGplusone: uh-huh … and …

ddavitt: Out of the frying pan into the twist your brain if you don’t conform

AGplusone: Happy Valley …

ddavitt: But the first time I read it I swallowed the, “it’s good here, bad in there” line

AGplusone: works as a patriachial society until people show up …

AGplusone: then what?

ddavitt: I don’t think I got the point of a lot of H books the first time round..maybe I still don’t

AGplusone: so did I

ddavitt: happy Valley was a family; different dynamics

ddavitt: How about Tunnel?

ddavitt: Purity of purpose

AGplusone: first thing they do, to survive, is create a constitution

ddavitt: Coupled with knowledge of how a govt works; they did OK

ddavitt: After Grant’s committes got dissolved

AGplusone: much better than Goldings’ children

ddavitt: They did what had to be done, sensibly. Rare, very rare

ddavitt: poor piggy!

AGplusone: poor couch shell

ddavitt: I hated that book…did it as school and it was darn scary

ddavitt: Iwas only about 12

ddavitt: Looked at my classmates with new eyes, I can tell you

AGplusone: I was too old when I read it first.

AGplusone: Couldn’t believe twelve-year-olds were that silly

ddavitt: High Wind in jamaica?

ddavitt: When the boy dies and noone notices?

AGplusone: but then, now that I’m older, I’ll concede it’s possible

AGplusone: … for twenty-one year olds to be that dumb.

AGplusone: The ‘little un’ that disappears in Golding does the same thing. I always thought the choir ate him

ddavitt: Rod’s lot never sank that low..but they were older and better prepared

AGplusone: And Goldings’ point was: how can we be sure we’re preparing them (if you don’t believe his point was we can’t be prepared).

AGplusone: that all governments except tolitarians forms are artificial

AGplusone: and melt away under sufficient pressure

ddavitt: I have been awake since 6 and lauren was up from 3 to 4 am so i am dead on my feet ( 10 pm here) I think I have to say goodnight. I’ll try and make saturday but

Davis flies down to san Jose at 1.00 so have to see how busy I am

ddavitt: Is there a directors meet on Sunday david?

AGplusone: okay, Jane … go sleep

AGplusone: no. meeting isn’t til Thanksgiving weekend

Paradis401: Bye Jane. Be Good!

ddavitt: I feel as if I could use the keyboard as a pillow

ddavitt: OK, night all, sorry to rush off.

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: not bad … a good hour …

Paradis401: All? Just you and me David.

AGplusone: problem is scheduling on four days notice

DavidWrightSr: I’m here

AGplusone: but, this has been pretty good …

Paradis401: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, haven’t been able to contribute much. Been running under the gun here at home and at work and church.

AGplusone: what about Heinlein’s view of government, basically? Do you think that possibly he agreed at bottom with Golding

AGplusone: but felt that education was the guard against that

AGplusone: ‘holding back the night’

DavidWrightSr: I think he was big on ‘larning’ of all sorts.

Paradis401: I think Robert did mention Lord of the Flies somewhere in one of his books.

AGplusone: I’d like to find that.

Paradis401: If’n I do, I’ll email you.

AGplusone: I know he mentioned some authors as among those he disfavored …

AGplusone: possibly in one of his lectures …

AGplusone: but I don’t recall Golding in there.

AGplusone: I keep wanting to say James Joyce

Paradis401: Did he really mention authors he didn’t like – except maybe as a general comment?

AGplusone: Let me check … I think I have it

Paradis401: He had a principle about never talking about other authors – at least by name.

AGplusone: “A very large part of what is accepted as “serious” literature today represents nothing more than a cultural lag on the part of many authors, ”

AGplusone: editors and critics–a retreat to the womb in the face of a world too complicated and too frightening for their immature spirits.

AGplusone: A sick literature. What do we find so often today? Autobiographical novels centered around neurotics, even around sex maniacs,

Paradis401: Ok. That’s general. He only mentioned other authors by name if he had something good to say about them.

AGplusone: I’m trying to get the entire quote which goes on … it’s too long to put in one buffer’

AGplusone: Can James Joyce and Henry Miller and their literary sons and grandsons interpret the seething new world of atomic power and antibiotics and interplanetary travel? I say not.

AGplusone: having skipped some there ….

AGplusone: In my opinion a very large portion of what is now being offered the public as serious, contemporary-scene fiction

AGplusone: is stuff that should not be printed, but told only privately–on a psychiatrist’s couch.

AGplusone: The world, the human race, is now faced with very real and pressing problems.

Paradis401: I seem to remember and agree with all of that.

AGplusone: They will not be solved by introverted neurotics intent on telling, in a tedious hundred thousand words

AGplusone: , they hate their fathers and love their mothers.

AGplusone: In any case, I, for one, am heartily sick of stories about frustrates, jerks, homosexuals and comuters who are unhappy with their wives– for goodness sake!

AGplusone: Let them find other wives, other jobs–and shut up!

AGplusone: that’s from “The SF Novel — It’s faults and virtues”

Paradis401: It would have been nice if he had named some of them. But he never would.

AGplusone: Well, he mentions Joyce, and others, that I’ve cut out in close association with that passage.

AGplusone: In any case, is it not odd that the ash-can school of realism, as exemplified by Henry Miller, Jean-Paul Sartre, James Joyce, Françoise Sagan and Alberto Moravia, should be held up to us as “high art”

Paradis401: Yes, but the comments about Joyce are general.. not all that pejorative.

AGplusone: Part of what I cut out

AGplusone: Can James Joyce and Henry Miller and their literary sons and grandsons interpret the seething new world of atomic power and antibiotics and interplanetary travel? I say not!

DavidWrightSr: Well, as a young teen-ager, I always felt that Heinlein wrote ‘literature’, but didn’t, (and still don’t) know what that means.

Paradis401: Neither do I.

AGplusone: He went on and said: True, some of this sick literature does shine some light into dark corners of the human soul.

AGplusone: Even a sordid, narrow novel such as James Jones’ From Here to Eternity can sometimes manage that. But is this enough?

AGplusone: At best such a novel shows only one frame of a complex and rapidly moving picture.“I am a stranger and afraid in a world I never made.”

AGplusone: So I’d read the passages I’ve just quoted, closely associated, as critical of all those authors mentioned, not merely of James Jones

Paradis401: I guess we can more or less forgive him since they were all dead anyway.

AGplusone: . . . but wadda I know.

Paradis401: Even in his correspondence he was kind to people like Alice Dahlg….

AGplusone: He notes several authors in that essay with approval.

Paradis401: I will go back and read it.

AGplusone: I think he basically was a kind man.

Paradis401: Yes indeed. Always.

AGplusone: But he had strong feelings about some kinds of ‘literature’ including the Freudian schools … which include as their darling, writers such as Golding

Paradis401: Robert had strong feelings about a lot of things but the always emphasized the Positive side of things in people.

AGplusone: All the sexual undertones in Lord of Flies … killing the pig.

AGplusone: In most writings, true …

AGplusone: but he could parody some things, e.g., that assessment in the ‘Freudian style’ he wrote Dahlgliesh

Paradis401: Yes, and that was very funny.

AGplusone: after she played games with Willis’s method of procreation.

AGplusone: but perhaps not to her

DavidWrightSr: and what’s his name, ‘Van Rheinschmitt’?

Paradis401: Who dat?

AGplusone: in Lifeline, there’s an academic

AGplusone: his name is a parody on the Chancellor of USC, von Kleinschmidt

Paradis401: Oh. OK. But Alice was a really stupid bitch.

AGplusone: who was Chancellor and a publicity hog when RAH lived out here.

AGplusone: “America’s most handsome University President”

Paradis401: One of those eh?

AGplusone: exactly

Paradis401: Ive always been leery of the pretty boys like Kennedy and Clinton.

AGplusone: Harry Truman (don’t forget to include Dub-yah as a pretty boy)

AGplusone: is the one to admire.

Paradis401: Wo is Dub-Yah? Bush.?

AGplusone: da one and only

Paradis401: He ain’t purty. Hell he’s uglier than a cactus.

AGplusone: well, some might differ

Paradis401: His mom.

AGplusone: I always thought Clinton was too far faced

AGplusone: fat faced

AGplusone: fraternity boy look

Paradis401: Monika didn’t think so. But she didn’t focus on his face much.

AGplusone: Monica’s taste was all “in her mouth”

Paradis401: Ouch!

DavidWrightSr: Does this get ‘edited’? :-)

AGplusone: if you wish …

DavidWrightSr: Up to you.

AGplusone: I yam what I yam

Paradis401: I don’t know. Whya should it. Make Ginny laugh.

AGplusone: can’t hurt any more than the joke I told about chihuahuas at the beginning

Paradis401: Right.

AGplusone: Let’s think of a topic for next meeting …

AGplusone: your turn Denis!

Paradis401: What about pretty boys in Heinlein’s work?

AGplusone: Why not?

AGplusone: You wanna do the lead off?

AGplusone: I’m waiting to find out who they are.

Paradis401: No… you would do better. Like MVS

AGplusone: MVS a ‘pretty boy’ as in the muscles he ‘grewed’?

Paradis401: Yes. I sometimes think he modeled Mike after Sturgeon.

AGplusone: Or do you ‘spose Bork Vanning was a pretty boy.

Paradis401: No.

AGplusone: Really … then I think you should do it. I know nothing whatever about Sturgeon.

Paradis401: Author of “GodBody”

AGplusone: who else

AGplusone: Yes, I know that.

Paradis401: I’m thinking but aging rapidly. Galahad in TEFL

AGplusone: But I’ve never read it, or anything else by Sturgeon … {I keep telling everyone I stopped reading SF for thirty years}

AGplusone: yes …

AGplusone: and the applicant going out as Oscar goes in …

Paradis401: I wonder why Robert wrote the forword for Godbody. Oscar fits too.

Paradis401: Foreword

AGplusone: who Oscar suspects is a hermorphidite … (sp?)

DavidWrightSr: And ‘Larry Smith’ was too pretty I believe his father said

AGplusone: Yes!

AGplusone: and Max Jones

AGplusone: who the lady removes some hair and tatoos wrinkles on

Paradis401: There you go… you’re cookin guys. give the ladies something to talk about..

AGplusone: I vote Denis leads-off …

Paradis401: I’m not a good leading man for this sort of thing.

AGplusone: sure you are …

AGplusone: just do what I do … prattle

AGplusone: ’tis easier than you think

Paradis401: No. I’m a scientific writer. Different sort of thing.

AGplusone: LOL … I doubt that

Paradis401: Really?

AGplusone: If I lead off will you jump in and raise some points I have no competency whatever to talk about, like Sturgeon?

Paradis401: Sure.

AGplusone: Okay, it’s going to be a twist on the ‘unreal’ portraits of men that all the fem-libers raise about the wimmen. Raise a hackle or two, maybe.

AGplusone: Galahed, indeed!

AGplusone: Galahad

Paradis401: It should hit the spot. What spot that may be.

AGplusone:

AGplusone: me

AGplusone: Dave, anything to suggest?

Paradis401: Ok. Hope we have a better attendance for the next one.

DavidWrightSr: Nothing here.

AGplusone: ‘kay … we’ll start it ahead, I suggest, and if Connie says I have to come on that date, we’ll defer it

AGplusone: we can always postpone

DavidWrightSr: Have you heard anything from her?

AGplusone: not a word

Paradis401: Sawright with me.

AGplusone: ‘kay then, have log?

AGplusone: Have Log –Will Travel, the story of Babe the Blue Ox

DavidWrightSr: Got it

Paradis401: Goodnight gentlemen. It was fun. You may be seated.

AGplusone: G’nite from New York, David

DavidWrightSr: Night David, Denis

Paradis401: Night all.

Paradis401 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 10:41
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 10-27-2001 5:00 P.M. Martians

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 10-27-2001 5:00 P.M.

Martians

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi David. Had me scared for a minute. Program said Chat wasn’t available and then bombed out.

SAcademy has entered the room.

SAcademy: Good afternoon to you both

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. David AG appears to be away from keyboard.

DavidWrightSr: I just got in myself. Had a little trouble at first.

SAcademy: Looks like it.

SAcademy: Jim should be here soon.

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: David was having trouble. had to reboot.

DavidWrightSr: BRB.

SAcademy: I am well fixed today–I brought along a sack of tootsie rolls and a box of cashews.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

SAcademy: Hello Kultsi

AGplusone has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny, David(s)

AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi, Ginny, Dave. That worked.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. You made it. I will be away for a short while. Got to get supper.

AGplusone: Yes, thanks!

SAcademy: Will Jim be leading?

KultsiKN: David, d’you know?

AGplusone: If he makes it. I’ll lead if he doesn’t. Ginny did he let you know what the problem was with his back?

SAcademy: No He had a bad fall and was invalided out of the Navy because of it.

AGplusone: Yes, I know … but I was wondering how bad it was. He had to leave rather precipitiously. Hope it’s not a replapse.

AGplusone: I’ll e mail him.

AGplusone: should have done that already

SAcademy: I don’t know. Just know that it bothers him now and then

AGplusone: why he’s disabled. Good guy.

SAcademy: Yes, indeed.

AGplusone: I haven’t read the log or signed on to AOL yet. Don’t know if we got a reply to my last post, but ….

AGplusone: btw, have you either seen the new website up?

AGplusone: simply www.heinleinsociety.org

SAcademy: Yes, I went there to see it.

AGplusone: Looking for feedback

AGplusone: we’re still working on it, but wanted to get something up before the 31st and it’s mostly done

KultsiKN: Lots faster, at least…

AGplusone: that was a major consideration that we looked for!

AGplusone: glad of that

AGplusone: and we’ve finally got the check payment system and will put up a merchant account shortly

AGplusone: so people can use Mastercharge and Visa

KultsiKN: The text in the opening page needs some polishing

SAcademy: I am sorry, David, because you’ve worked so hard on it, but I really don’t think they compare.

AGplusone: ‘kay …

SAcademy: I wasn’t going to say anything about it.

AGplusone: well, that’s okay

AGplusone: don’t worry

AGplusone: all feedback is useful

SAcademy: It’s only my opinion.

SAcademy: Others may differ, and probably will.

AGplusone: on text, Kultsi, what do you feel it the problem?

KultsiKN: I’d say it needs some proofing and reformatting.

AGplusone: that’s easy … reformat how?

KultsiKN:

after the welcome text…

AGplusone: ‘splain, what’s

?

KultsiKN: “We intend in his words to “PAY IT FORWARD” ” as …

KultsiKN: “We intend, in his words, to “PAY IT FORWARD” ”

KultsiKN: (two commas)

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

SAcademy: Hi, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Hello.

AGplusone: don’t see any commas. What browser and platform are you using?

KultsiKN: “Heinlein blood drives, ” a bit more forceful — “Heinlein Blood Drives, ”

AGplusone: Have a paren [(] after the ”

KultsiKN: I mean do _add_ the commas…

AGplusone: oh, you’d rather see commas than parens?

SAcademy: Will Francesco be here today?

AGplusone: I understand

BPRAL22169: We must be talking about the website.

AGplusone: I haven’t heard from him

KultsiKN: Yes, Bill, and Hi!

SAcademy: I wonder what he will think?

BPRAL22169: Howdy.

AGplusone: we were waiting … dunno, haven’t heard from him in a good while

AGplusone: any other suggestions on grammar? I listen hard, Kultsi

AGplusone: (and I don’t have any particular pride in authorship of this page — didn’t author the parens … just kept them)

AGplusone: :-)

KultsiKN: Some on the ‘news’ page — that’s as far as I got 😉 What if I proof the whole thing later and send it all to you, David?

AGplusone: that would be very useful!

KultsiKN: K!

AGplusone: ag.plusone@verizon.net

AGplusone: so, back to the chat ….

AGplusone: anyone see a note from Jim whether he’ll be here?

AGplusone: and let me start dragging ’em in …

SAcademy: No.

SAcademy: Forgot to ask Denis whether he’d be here.

KultsiKN: David, you grab the gavel.

AGplusone: will in a sec … dragging ’em in

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Good afternoon all!

BPRAL22169: Yo

AGplusone: Denv, are you on AIM or just AOL?

DenvToday: Both, actually.

SAcademy: Nice to see you.

DenvToday: Thank you Mrs. Heinlein.

BPRAL22169: Are we going to talk about Rainbow Mars again? I think Jim had a slightly different topic in mind.

Major oz has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Oz

DenvToday: Howdy Oz

Major oz: Hello, all

BPRAL22169: Yo OZ

SAcademy: Hello

Major oz: Sorry not to have been seeing you more often, lately

Major oz: I am in LUST

joelrmpls has entered the room.

AGplusone: I dunno what Jim wanted to talk about …

Major oz: …….with music

joelrmpls: Hi, all.

DenvToday: Hello Joel.

AGplusone: Hi, Joel. Topic: compare RAH’s martians with other ‘martians’

DenvToday: Oz, which music?

SAcademy: Hi Joel

Major oz: Bluegrass, country, and gospel

SAcademy: Awful taste!

Major oz: I am playing dobro, and having the time of my life

Major oz: hisssssssssssss

AGplusone: … but I wanna talk about ‘form following function.’ Are the martians in Red Planet, really, really the same as the martians in SiaSL?

Major oz: yes, through different eyes

AGplusone: what eyes, oz?

joelrmpls: I think they’re close, but not the same.

DenvToday: Q: What has 200 feet and 7 teeth? A: The front row at the Grand Ole Opry.

AGplusone: how, Joel?

DenvToday: Sorry Oz :-) Couldn’t resist. I’m evil.

Major oz: kids in RP, adults in SiaSL

joelrmpls: I don’t think that the SiaSL martians are capable of leaving the Red Planet humans alone to the extent that the RP martians do.

AGplusone: [I think they are day and night … but I’ll bite my tongue] [for a while}

joelrmpls: The SiaSL martians are meddlers; the RP ones aren’t.

AGplusone: agree with you oz, but what does that distinction mean, and, Joel, what difference does that make?

AGplusone: I see you’re getting to it …

Major oz: What weighs tons and tons? — Paychecks at the Opry

Major oz: In bluegrass, we call it a jam — in the classics, it is a chamber group

BPRAL22169: I don’t think that distinction is valid.

AGplusone: ‘meddlers’ … would you agree ‘ultimately malign’ and inhuman, godlike … rather than neutral and corporate

AGplusone: why not, Bill?

DenvToday: Gifford categorizes the Martians very well, I think.

BPRAL22169: In RP they had decided to let things play themselves oout and so had moderate intervention. what we see of their does not necessariily imply passive or active in general.

Major oz: Do we have ralative times for RP and SiaSL ?

AGplusone: how do he do that, Ron … hate to say it, but I don’t really keep track of Jim

DenvToday: Actually, I happen to like bluegrass a lot.

Major oz: r”e”lative

DenvToday: It’s modern country I’m not all that fond of. Too Hollywood, too far away from its roots.

BPRAL22169: RP has to have taken place after SIASL

Major oz: Acid rock with a big hat

Major oz: that ain’t country

AGplusone: ‘neutral’ is the term I used, Bill … is that ‘fair’?

BPRAL22169: OK. But we may be seeing the same phliosophy or course of action at different times. Tht’s the only point I’m making.

AGplusone: impassive rather than actively trying to ‘grok’ and judge humanity

DenvToday: David, Gifford puts RAH’s Martians into 3 major groups:

Major oz: I interpreted the RP martians as being seen, from kids, as “fun” and protective.

AGplusone: POV differs

AGplusone: I did too

Major oz: Whereas, with Mike, they were teachers.

Major oz: …….more than teachers — more of a master/student ralationship

AGplusone: as seen from kid POV … why make them a terrible danger from the viewpoint of humanity

DenvToday: 1. The “sailboat” Martians of Red Planet and SIASL (along with the bouncers)

DenvToday: 2. The “toadstool” Martians of Double Star

Major oz: by “humanity” do you mean the adults in RP?

DenvToday: 3. The winged and fragile Martians of Between Planets

AGplusone: more of a God/creation:inferior being approach … we’ll Fifth Planet you if we choose, after we get around to’groking’ you

Major oz: wasn’t that from SiaSL ?

SAcademy: Consistency shows lack of imagination.

AGplusone: impertinence

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: Interesting that the Martians use the same “rotation” as the Galactic Tribunal in HSSWT

AGplusone: agreed ginny

AGplusone: he’s using them differently. Not criticizing that!

DenvToday: Gifford also lists 5 other references to Martians that are relatively incomplete and don’t fit neatly into the top 3 categories.

AGplusone: It’s a satire of about twenty different subjects as he said.

AGplusone: The martians are a satire of something!

Major oz: sorry, many of the details of martians other than in RP and SiaSL are a bit dim for me.

BPRAL22169: What entry is that comment of Gifford’s in?

AGplusone: well, for the time, let’s stick with RP and SiaSL

DenvToday: It’s at the end of Red Planet

BPRAL22169: Thx

DenvToday: yvw

AGplusone: what is he satiring in portraying the Martians in SiaSL?

AGplusone: Any ideas?

AGplusone: satirizing

Major oz: Were not the Martians of RP benign “uncles and aunts”?

AGplusone: besides artists who spend ten years on one novel (work of art) …

AGplusone: I thought so, oz

AGplusone: [i.e., himself]

Major oz: I thought H did well to cloak the SiaSL Martians in the mystery He used.

AGplusone: Niven, for example, is satirizing NASA and gvmt bureaucracies in Rainbow, just as Poul satirized them in Operation Luna

Major oz: Not that they were mysterious, but that their student, Mike, had to be shown to have a hard time explaining them to us.

BPRAL22169: I just had a thought: the threatening/guardian-guide combination of martians in Red Planet and then SIASL may be an homage to Wells’ Martians in War of the Worlds.

AGplusone: yes … and …

DavidWrightSr: BTW. The Martians in ‘Rolling Stones’ would appear to be similar to RP and SIASL. You recall that phrase of ‘Hazels’ about ‘trifurcate’ martians

AGplusone: recall it

BPRAL22169: Wells has ambivalent feelings about his conquering revolutionists.

Major oz: revolutionists ?

AGplusone: and I think RAH had ambivalent feelings about the omnipotent he created in RP and went back … in SiaSL to show they’d likely be malign, given the change and time enuf, to adults

BPRAL22169: They had the perfect socialism. They sweep away the “everydayism” of complacent bourgeois England.

Major oz: I never thought of Cortez as a revolutionist.

BPRAL22169: RAH doesn’t portray his martians as malign — at most they are narrow and parochial.

AGplusone: in a way he was … a simple soldier from Extra Madura who astounded the stultified aristrocrats of Spain with his conquests

Major oz: ………..and I play he dobro………..

Major oz: so ?

AGplusone: definitely considered a “not invented here” type by the aristrocracy

AGplusone: parvenue

AGplusone: did I spell that close enuf

BPRAL22169: No final “e” I think.

AGplusone: they tried real hard to do with him what they did with Columbus … put him in jail and stripe him of his power

AGplusone: strip

AGplusone: simple soldiers from ExtraMadura were supposed to be ‘enlisted men’ not Imperators

AGplusone: But that’s btw

Major oz: anyhoo………Mike was, simultaneously, in awe of them and considered them the norm

AGplusone: did he?

AGplusone: when did he change his mind?

Major oz: Whatever your universe is, is the norm

BPRAL22169: When he got that “our way is better”?

Major oz: He looked through our eyes

AGplusone: “our” … the monkeys who laugh at each other

AGplusone: yeah

Major oz: as James Burke says: “The day the universe changed”

AGplusone: do martians laugh at each other?

BPRAL22169: I belileve Martians don’t laugh — they don’t need to, as they aren’t Fallen.

AGplusone: conceivable that they would even imagine laughing at themselves

Major oz: They don’t have the concept

AGplusone: Yep

AGplusone: they’re Gods! god takes herself seriously

DenvToday: I’ve always thought of RP and SIASL Martians the very end of their evolution as “meat” beings, the next step being….who knows? And humans as the young Turks, the new kids on their way to taking over.

Major oz: I can’t imagine not being able to laugh

Major oz: what suffering that must be.

BPRAL22169: But so are you — do you take yourself seriously? Hmm. that doesn’t come out quite as I meant it.

joelrmpls has left the room.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

AGplusone: scary … you can’t say: “Ain’t no use in worrying. It never was worthwhile … ” if you’re a God.

djindalian has entered the room.

AGplusone: how we doin’ Joel?

AGplusone: Hi, Dave!

djindalian: hi

DenvToday: Good afternoon.

AGplusone: lemme send you a log, Dave. I’m being interlocutary.

AGplusone: at what domain

djindalian: ‘k

BPRAL22169: But the point of the book is we are all Gods anyway; the most we can do is try to ignore it and pretend otherwise.

Major oz: You think so?

Major oz: that that is the point, not that that is so.

Major oz: to many “that’s”

BPRAL22169: Yes, to both.

DenvToday: Are we talking that dreaded thing known as “New Age”?

AGplusone: dunno, skipped the New Age

BPRAL22169: Not at all.

AGplusone: what is it?

Major oz: I saw it as perhaps the best of contemporary novels that asked us to look at ourselves.

BPRAL22169: The question, of course, is “what do you mean by ‘God.'”

Major oz: Most are terminally self-absorbed, whereas His was entertaining.

AGplusone: what, SiaSL asked us to look at ourselves? I agree, btw.

Major oz: Somehow or another, I have been able to ascribe the word “pretentious” to almost every author I have read, one way or another.

Major oz: I could NEVER do that with H.

AGplusone: If you use “Martians” there’s got to be a purpose … what was RAH’s in SiaSL … and how did that differ, or perhaps surpass the other uses of Martians by other writers?

Major oz: It wasnt the martians, qua martains; but as another culture.

DenvToday: Oz, absolutely.

BPRAL22169: Sontag’s “Making Strange”? Self seen as Other?

Major oz: Make them Lithuanians and it ain’t SF

BPRAL22169: Accessing the ancient literary tradition of the Young Man from the Provinces. Candide in the Space Age?

Major oz: …….well………it could be SF

Major oz: Perhaps………….

KultsiKN: Definitely, Oz.

BPRAL22169: Will someone invite Ron Harrison in? I’ve mislaid my Buddy list.

Major oz: yo, Kultsi — good to see you again.

BPRAL22169: Dehede011

Dehede011 has entered the room.

DenvToday: Good afternoon

Dehede011: Howdy folks.

AGplusone: Joel: in the Guardians novels, how come you created the Elven Kingdom of Therranj so different in concept from everyone else?

Major oz: yo, d

Dehede011: Howdy Major

AGplusone: So inhuman?

SAcademy: Hi, Ron.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron Harrison

Dehede011: This is my first time to be beamed aboard by

SAcademy

Dehede011: Howdy Dave, Howdy Ginny

AGplusone: I imagine the Martians in SiaSL as a quantum different than any other Martians in RAH, and perhaps, different in function that the Willises, the Lummoxes …

Major oz: My major confusion with “the Martians” is how the same author had so many dispirate civilizations called Martians?

AGplusone: somewhat like the ‘mother thing’ with teeth we don’t really see until he rugs our noses into them

AGplusone: rubs

Major oz: Or…………if not so different, how did they evolve between stories?

AGplusone: Martians are metaphoric of any alien I think

KultsiKN: A purpose to serve

Major oz: Are we jumping realities, here?

AGplusone: TO SERVE MAN>

Major oz: …………different timelines, I mean?

KultsiKN: Different book, different purposes

AGplusone: So the neat, helpful martians of Red Planet, very powerful of course, do turn out to be something different in Stranger?

Major oz: yeahbut……….in most, He is consistent, except when (somewhat) explicitly stating that we are in different timelines / universes

Dehede011: Do they?

AGplusone: I think so ,,, but that’s just my own theory

AGplusone: I come back … who are they a parody of?

Major oz: Strange that they were never encountered in NOTB

Dehede011: Certainly they are diffferent than the ones in Double Star

AGplusone: yes … more like the Jocks I’d say

AGplusone: lazy slow Jocks

Major oz: and both Hugo winners

AGplusone: [meaning the Jocks’ Gods! not the slaves] what were they called?

Dehede011: But I had thought the ones in Red Planet were pretty much the same

Major oz: so irreconsialability isn’t always a “bad thing”

Dehede011: Except that now we had a better understanding of them

Major oz: Me too, Ron. But I can’t reconsile the changes.

Dehede011: Am I wrong in that, gentle people?

Major oz: Also, as David pointed out, RP is much later than SiaSL

AGplusone: Same guys playing different roles … Ron. Villains I submit in Stranger.

AGplusone: Helpful somewhat neutral friends in RP

Major oz: ………so the “maturity” seems to be in the wrong direction.

Dehede011: But in both the latent power and danger

AGplusone: Remember what the Doc said when he came back from the negotations?

Dehede011: In fact in Double Star also

Major oz: what?

AGplusone: We talked them out of forcing us all to leave!!

AGplusone: [ … ‘swinging that big club … ‘]

DavidWrightSr: Why ‘villains’ Dave?

Dehede011: And in Siasl all we have is Mike’s description

Major oz: Were the RP Martians the ttelekinitic powerhouses of SiaSL….I don’t recall

Dehede011: Major, I don’t think they were drawn distinctly enough for us to say, were they?

AGplusone: I think he posits them as the ultimate adversary unless humanity gets it ‘together’ and learns to grok … which Mike teaches them … fifth planet otherwise, much as the Old Ones will regret and cherish it.

Major oz: brb

AGplusone: but he says that by the time the Old Ones have fully groked it, we’ll be beyond their power to “Fifth Planet” us. The home team wins.

AGplusone: only because their spy, Mike, becomes a turncoat

DavidWrightSr: Wasn’t that more a case of self-defense, rather than pure aggression. Like the 3 Galaxies in HSSWT

AGplusone: yes

AGplusone: and also our most dangerous quality

AGplusone: mutate and survive

AGplusone: or maybe ‘think’ and file off the serial numbers and survive

Major oz: hokay…….I have to “clasify” the commentary into the RP or SLS martians

Dehede011: I think RAH did teach think and care for one another first, last and always

AGplusone: but, I ask it again, who are the Martians a parody of? Who takes so long to fully grok? [besides authors who take too long to write a book?]

Major oz: ………takes a while

AGplusone: [and die before it’s complete?] … classify away, Oz, please.

Major oz: Is it a given that they are, in fact, a parody?

Dehede011: Dave you are so right

DavidWrightSr: Bill. Did you and Andy treat the martians as a ‘parody’ in your book. Don’t recall it.

AGplusone: I dunno. but it is a satire of a ‘double dozen’ things …

Major oz: The novel, itself, yes

AGplusone: so, why shouldn’t the Martians be a parody of somethin’?

Major oz: but the Martians, in particular, I don’t postulate so.

AGplusone: why not?

Major oz: cant disprove………….

BPRAL22169: The Martians aren’t parody — but the overall structure of the book is parodic in a loose sense.

Dehede011: Guys it is Saturday and I only have a machine but briefly. Thank you and Good Day.

BPRAL22169: Have fun.

AGplusone: thanx Ron

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. I got that but didn’t remember anything specific about the Martians

Major oz: bye, Ron

DenvToday: Bye for now Ron

AGplusone: I disagree Bill. I have a target.

Dehede011: Thanks for beaming me aboard Bill and SA

BPRAL22169: /ga

Dehede011 has left the room.

Major oz: I, too, have to leave in a few mins

BPRAL22169: I could see, in a very general sense, them being parodies of the “perfect master” types.

Major oz: Going to play at a hog roast / gospel sing

AGplusone: The Martians are the ‘smartest men’ in the world, e.g., Henry Kissinger … they ones who know all the answers and are totally wrong.

AGplusone: Yes.

DenvToday: Oz, what do you play?

AGplusone: the academics in their puzzle palaces

BPRAL22169: There is an element of that, yes.

Major oz: dobro

DavidWrightSr: BTW Folks. my apologies for not getting Thursday’s log online yet. Been snowed under.

AGplusone: ‘thinkin’ deep thoughts to solve the world’s problems so long that they become irrelevant …” time’s past

Major oz: If we must posit them as parodies, I would tend to place them as the College of Cardinals

AGplusone: yep

DenvToday: Not a problem, David. I always appreciate the log, whenever it comes.

AGplusone: and they are utter fools because of their presumption …

AGplusone: that by ‘fully groking something’ before acting, you’re doing the right thing

Major oz: …………..not to pick on the RC’s. Any religious hierarchy will do……….

AGplusone: a typical academia foolishness

Major oz: Well………..you are at least thinking about it.

Major oz: You may still screw it up.

Major oz: But Grokking showed that “you care”

DavidWrightSr: Well. I don’t know about ‘doing the right’ thing, but I would certainly like ‘grok’ as fully as possible when I am about to do something with possible major impact.

AGplusone: “But do something, Lieutenant, don’t just stand there! You’re men are dying.”

Major oz: indeed

AGplusone: Your

Major oz: throw a fit, it gives the men something to think about while you make up your mind

AGplusone: Martians become extinct because they think too long, too hard, and too excessively

AGplusone: Look at Bradbury’s stories.

Major oz: Let’s not turn them into cartoons.

AGplusone: They ‘feel’

AGplusone: they don’t act

AGplusone: they ‘long’

Major oz: I respect the cloister of most sects that use them

AGplusone: they are unchangeable

AGplusone: and they die

Major oz: LIke liberals?………………

BPRAL22169: I dunno — seems to me you’re reading stuff into the book that isn’t there.

AGplusone: because, of course, they are “perfect” … very possible, oz, although I can name some antediluvian conservatives too

BPRAL22169: The images Heinlein evokes talking about the Martians is all pastoral.

Major oz: of course

BPRAL22169: They have entered into the “timeless eternal present” of myth-time.

AGplusone: Why are they “there” if they aren’t to prove some point, Bill?

DavidWrightSr: To tell a story? :-)

Major oz: brb

AGplusone: Unless they’re Burroughs-like hand puppets to merely provide a foil for humanity

BPRAL22169: Representing the Platonic sort of timeless eternal present is enough; they don’t have to “prove a point” if they are there to serve as a foil.

BPRAL22169: They set the context against which others — in this case humans — act.

AGplusone: yeah, but why must they merely be a foil.

AGplusone: I don’t think they are merely that.

AGplusone: It’s a satire

BPRAL22169: Well, they are not “merely” that — they are played off in many ways in that book.

AGplusone: such as … ?

BPRAL22169: Setting up the cannibalism = sacrament bit, for instance.

BPRAL22169: Just one instance.

AGplusone: but isn’t that ironic of a mindset that is set in stone itself?

AGplusone: ritual cannibalism

BPRAL22169: I can’t think of any remark in the book that indicates Heinlein thinks the Martians are destined for racial extinction.

AGplusone: No different than the first Friday

AGplusone: Oh, what about the fact that they never lisp The Green Hills of Earth

BPRAL22169: There’s a difference between ossification and achieving a perfectly suitable routine.

AGplusone: ? Not in the book of course

BPRAL22169: Different timeline. Different martians.

AGplusone: really?

BPRAL22169: The Martians of SIASL have things nicely set up just the way they want them.

AGplusone: Jubal winds up in the l’envoi

AGplusone: is it really different

DavidWrightSr: GH just said that the song was of Earth, not translated into any of the non-terran languages.

AGplusone: yep

BPRAL22169: Jubal is human — he groks the analogous truths for humans.

DavidWrightSr: Didn’t say that they were extinct

AGplusone: no Martians in l’envoi

Major oz: gotta go, folks

AGplusone: But Sir Issac gets to be there.

AGplusone: Isaac

Major oz: see ya next time (y’all)

AGplusone: see ya, oz

Major oz has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I think the Martians are not “individuals” enough for RAH’s taste. That would be my guess.

BPRAL22169: Nothing wrong with that == but not his cup of tea, either.

AGplusone: a lot like the ‘little people” aren’t they?

AGplusone: a communism of the academia

BPRAL22169: That thought crossed my mind — but there are degrees of differences he might have thought important.

KultsiKN: There was one Martian mentioned in l’envoi — the co-designer for the Critics’ Lounge

KultsiKN: An ERB Martian

AGplusone: they all have to come to the same conclusion, necessarily, before they agree to Fifth Planet the third planet

DavidWrightSr: But he was from Burroughs wasn’t he?

AGplusone: ‘fully grok’

DavidWrightSr: Also remember that the ‘martians’ in the earlier part TNOTB were ‘wogs’ like a poor relative of the ‘black hats’

AGplusone: how do humans every become unanimous? Not possible.

BPRAL22169: The Martians do operate by consensus so they are in “community,” of which RAH approves — not a group mind, a hive-consciousness, of which he does not approve for humans.

AGplusone: I agree that’s a point, Dave. Not the iceboats, but a mere pallid immitation of other things, Black Hats.

AGplusone: Is it really a consensus. I didn’t think so … I thought it as an inevitable reaching of the One Truth

AGplusone: in and of itself a foolishness because there ain’t no such thang

DavidWrightSr: And they disapeared along with the Brits and the Russkies

AGplusone: Dunno if I’m anywhere near right. But let’s take a ten minute break, thing on it, and somebody else lead for a while?

AGplusone: Back at 45 past the hour?

AGplusone: think on it

AGplusone: brb

BPRAL22169: ok

AGplusone: appropo of nuthin’ … Toledo finally yanked Paus who has been stinking up the place all game, and the Bruins may manange to come back …

KultsiKN: equally appropo…. this Calvados is starting to taste something drinkable instead of moonshine…

AGplusone: LOL…

AGplusone: I always expected that apples would make a good drink, but was disapointed with the first taste of it

SAcademy: Do you really drink that stuff??

KultsiKN: Moonshine or Calvados?

AGplusone: drink anything that doesn’t drink me

SAcademy: Either.

AGplusone: both

KultsiKN: Me 2.

AGplusone: you have to figure out a way to get to San Jose Kultsi

AGplusone: you and me and Dave Wright will speak to each other in anglo-saxon

KultsiKN: jist one liiittul problem — bucks.

AGplusone: volunteer to enlist in the CIA …

AGplusone: and ask for language school

SAcademy: How about the TaFF fund?

SAcademy: Transa-Atlantic Fan Fund.

AGplusone: tell us about it, Ginny. None of us are experts in that

BPRAL22169: Calvados is GOOD!

SAcademy: The fans get together two funds, one is TAFF and the other is DUFF. They send a representative overseas for a world con.

BPRAL22169: TAFF is “Trans-Atlantic Fan Fund” and DUFF is “Down-Under Fan Fund” — for Australia

SAcademy: Thanks, Bill.

SAcademy: How do they select the person to go, Bill? Do you know?

BPRAL22169: 😎

KultsiKN: Bill, I think that’s like saying ‘Whisky is good’

BPRAL22169: It’s voted on by all the subscribers — donations to the funds get you the right to vote on the person.

BPRAL22169: Whiskey is good, too.

BPRAL22169: And Trader Joe’s just started carrying Laphroaig. Life is good.

AGplusone: In my case, ‘whisky’ is good … think of acquivit … not frozen.

KultsiKN: Now. Talisker is good. Laphroaigh is good. Bowmore is good. Johnnie Walker is mouthwash.

AGplusone: scotch is funny tasting

BPRAL22169: It’s the peat smoke. the good stuff.

BPRAL22169: Bourbon is not drinkable.

BPRAL22169: (We have now entered on a religious discussion)

AGplusone: I know.

KultsiKN: I know, too.

AGplusone: I’m going into a retreat. Stanford just scored again. Killed UCLA.

AGplusone: Bad game

AGplusone: ah, well … next year

AGplusone: About martians … why are RAH’s any different than other authors’ Martians?

AGplusone: which was the original question

SAcademy: Three dimensional.

SAcademy: Okay, bad pun.

AGplusone: Sean just asked me to pass on compliments. He’s got a family thing on.

BPRAL22169: I just flashed on Elisha at the Passover table.

AGplusone: ‘splain, please, Bill.

AGplusone: I forget, does John the mystic see Elias at Passover. Been some time since I read it.’

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

SAcademy: The apocraphal books?

KultsiKN: Hi, Jim!

NuclearWasteUSN: Heya Kultsi!

NuclearWasteUSN: Long time no see

SAcademy: Hello Jim. We missed you.

AGplusone: Ah, our leader has arrived. Now we finally have direction!

NuclearWasteUSN: I am sorry

AGplusone: Proceed, sir.

NuclearWasteUSN: Frightening.

NuclearWasteUSN: OK We were going to discuss WHY Martians are present in the stories

NuclearWasteUSN: (Or,more generically, what role do the aliens play.)

BPRAL22169: “Why is this day different from all other days?”

NuclearWasteUSN: Are they a case of form following function? Or are they something more?

SAcademy: It’s the end of daylight saving!

NuclearWasteUSN: Is is actually different?

BPRAL22169: That’s a reference to my flashing on Elisha at Passover when David asked “Why are Heinlein’s Martians different from all other Martians.”

AGplusone: okay, comprehendo

AGplusone: why are they?

NuclearWasteUSN: I still think they are different because he was the first to attempt to make a truly alien alien, if you will.

AGplusone: How?

AGplusone: PPOR, if you will

NuclearWasteUSN: Socially, psychologically and physically, if I may use my pet method, they are nonterrestrial.

AGplusone: [I believe you, but … ]

NuclearWasteUSN: Other authors to that point always sought to give them some human fault or beneficial trait to extreme,

NuclearWasteUSN: That way they would be fam,iliar to the reader, and they could understand their motivation

DavidWrightSr: Well Physically, and psychologically, I thought that Weinbaum’s was truly alien, socially, can’t say because he was the only representative

DavidWrightSr: And Weinbaum wrote several years before RAH

NuclearWasteUSN: With Heinlein’s they are truly alien. Someone in here the other night said they were a send up on academia, and that is a possibility as well,

AGplusone: I think I’m starting to see your point, Jim. I always thought them foolish … for humans.

NuclearWasteUSN: But, David, I have conveniently not read Weinbaum yet, so I can ignore that fact.

AGplusone: exactitude isn’t a human quality. we’re too impatient.

DavidWrightSr: :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Wasn’t it Jane that said the introduction of facts just sucks all the fun out off life?

AGplusone: facts is boring … but facts

DavidWrightSr: And too much analysis sometimes messes up appreciation of a story :-)

AGplusone: never!

DavidWrightSr: No offense intended :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL We should always be able to laugh at ourselves

AGplusone: always fun trying to play with the author’s mind

KultsiKN: What do you say to that, Joel?

NuclearWasteUSN: The idea that the Martians were a send up on modern academia is interesting as well, even if it does tend to slay my ideas on another level.

AGplusone: “ain’t no use in worrying … it never was worthwhile … so pack up your troubles in your old kit bag … and smile, smile, SMILE!”

NuclearWasteUSN: Given your chosen nom de guerre Ginny, what do you think of that particular theory?

joelrmpls: Oops. Sorry; I was working.

BPRAL22169: Weinbaum died in 1936 — 3 years before RAH started writing commercially.

SAcademy: I was in the Navy, not the Army

NuclearWasteUSN: No problem, I was just wondering about the idea that Robert’s Martians were a send up on acedemia

AGplusone: or maybe just ‘thinktanks’

SAcademy: Well, he had years to think about them before he realy got to writing them.

joelrmpls: That’s something that a lot of writers do — you play with ideas in the back of your head or on paper, for a long time, and then, if all goes well, the writing part gets easy.

joelrmpls: When you’re lucky.

joelrmpls: What’s scary is the stuff that you didn’t know you were playing with.

NuclearWasteUSN: The more I study his writing, the more layers I realize everything has.

NuclearWasteUSN: Very Mark Twainian if you will.

AGplusone: LOL … until someone figures them out, and you say, as you say on your site: gee, I niver thot of dat …. when in fact maybe you did very well, hehehe

joelrmpls: Well, he was a complicated guy, and had a lot of agendas going. It’s not surprising that many of them manage to get onto paper.

joelrmpls: He also, pretty clearly, enjoyed having fun with some stuff that few people were likely to notice.

NuclearWasteUSN: Back to the original idea, are aliens in stories just foils?

AGplusone: as did someone named Robert

joelrmpls: Notice the curious matter of the Venusian ambassador in Star Beast.

SAcademy: Doesn’t everyone run more than a single track in his-her mind?

joelrmpls: Judging from some folks’ writing, Ginny, heck no. :-)

AGplusone: what “curious matter”?

NuclearWasteUSN: gINNY, ALL THE PEOPLE i LIKE TO PLAY WITH DO.

NuclearWasteUSN: Darn caps lock

AGplusone: I usually blame Bob, my Master (aka the cat)

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, I am curious as well.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have not read Star Beast in years

joelrmpls: Reread the book; I don’t want to spoil it. It’s worth it.

joelrmpls: Somebody was Having Fun.

AGplusone: something about an infection iirc

NuclearWasteUSN: Off to B&N for me.

AGplusone: vaguely

NuclearWasteUSN: And the closest one is down in Mounds View by Joel. 2 1/2 hours away, thanks Joel

joelrmpls: One of the reasons that I wish that we had e-books working right is that it would make it a lot easier for situations like this.

joelrmpls: I can explain it, but it would spoil it.

NuclearWasteUSN: Don’t worry, I like an excuse to run to the book store.

AGplusone: go ahead … I recall it on your site, or somewhere …

joelrmpls: Okay, it’s like this.

joelrmpls: Greenberg is faced with the problem that there is, supposedly, an infection on the ship that the Venusian ambassador is on, and while everybody knows it’s just bureacratic nonsense, they don’t want to either delay the conference…

joelrmpls: …or violate quarantine. Bad precedent.

SAcademy: BRB

BPRAL22169: (You need an excuse?)

BPRAL22169: (I need an excuse NOT to run to a bookstore…)

BPRAL22169: (Got any spare ones? I’ve used up all my stock)

joelrmpls: So they work out a scam where the Venusian ambassador will attend the conference in a quarantine suit, which will be uncomfortable for him, but he’ll get brownie points for…

AGplusone: I have the book .. and we all should

NuclearWasteUSN: (With a three year old to watch, and a 2 1/2 – 3 hours drive one way?)

joelrmpls: … the discomfort, and they’ll stop the conference, every now and then, so that he can be “seen to” by his doctor.

BPRAL22169: (Amateur! you give the kid a book!)

joelrmpls: That’s where they leave it.

AGplusone: yeah, right, but …

DavidWrightSr: Not quite. The ambassador died IIRC

AGplusone: what happens … yes, Dave

joelrmpls: Toward the end, there’s a casual reference to Greenberg and/or Kiko being on their way to the ambassador’s funeral . . .

AGplusone: so the posturing was real

AGplusone: and ironic

DavidWrightSr: Sorry jumped in too fast

joelrmpls: Yup. :-)

AGplusone: typical politician

joelrmpls: You’ll notice that the heroes of Star Beast are government bureaucrats.

AGplusone: and a loving portrayal

AGplusone: not politicians!

SAcademy: Baack

NuclearWasteUSN: Some bureaucrats actually do try to do a good job. Hard to be better than the system.

AGplusone: What’s the name of the BBC series: “Mr. Minister”

joelrmpls: No — worse. Unelected bureaucrats, with authority that stems from them being in the bureaucracy.

joelrmpls: And they’re the good guys.

AGplusone: The one in which the unelected CofS keeps the thing going despite the politicians

joelrmpls: (For some reason, Star Beast is not high on many libertarians’ lists of the Best of RAH.)

AGplusone: wonder why [he said innocently]

BPRAL22169: It’s part of the mythology of the 20th century — centralized planning requires a bureaucracy.

joelrmpls: As I said: Mr. Heinlein was complicated, and he had a lot of stuff going on.

SAcademy: Kiku

AGplusone: or another myth … all civil servants are pigs at the trough

joelrmpls: … in addition to wanting to entertain and make a buck.

AGplusone: playing against expectation

NuclearWasteUSN: And, except for the Hroshii the aliens are very much offstage, and even they are only in the story a little.

joelrmpls: I’ve always been curious about the origin of that name. Has an interesting resonance.

AGplusone: The Hroshii remind me the most of the Martians in SiaSL … swing a big club that no one really knows about and not particularly benigh toward humanity

NuclearWasteUSN: That seems to be a theme in Heinlein books, the aliens appear only enough to peak your interest.

DavidWrightSr: Almost like the Russian word ‘xoroshij’ or ‘good’ (adj)

AGplusone: “Ha-so, suplised I spik your langwitch, G.I”

joelrmpls: Or, in SiaSL, to create a tabla rasa.

NuclearWasteUSN: keyboard

joelrmpls: SiaSL is basically about US society — to the extent that it’s commentary — and you need an outside observer to make that part of it work.

AGplusone: “You see, I was educated at You See Rar A!”

BPRAL22169: I thought that was You See Err A?

AGplusone: close

joelrmpls: Helps to make all the other wierdness even wierder. Without that…. well, imagine the Mary Tyler Moore show without Mary Richards.

BPRAL22169: Now there’s an image…

NuclearWasteUSN: I have picked up a lot from the book by answering questions posed by our resident Brits.

BPRAL22169: I believe you’d have California there…

DavidWrightSr: ‘hardest English for Japanese is ‘rorypop’

AGplusone: watiz ‘rorypop’?

AGplusone: lolipop?

NuclearWasteUSN: Nanga you Jim no good pray cards with me no mo!

DavidWrightSr: lollypop? Japanese doesn’t distinuish ‘r’ or ‘l’ as different phonemes

NuclearWasteUSN: Matchiko, a friend in Yakasuka

NuclearWasteUSN: Never lead trump too early

AGplusone: Where’s Felicia … aka ______ spice?

DavidWrightSr: BTW, that was a quote from Alec Guinness in some movie I’ve totally forgotten

AGplusone: Naw, get the small children off the street.

joelrmpls: She’s getting supper. KFC.

BPRAL22169: That’s right. Lead trumps when you need to clear your suits with holes in your defense.

joelrmpls: And me, I need to finish today’s quota, if I’m going to have the final version of this book packed with me, on Thursday. So I’d best get back to it.

AGplusone: We have to get together some time. Drink heap big amounts of Calvados, play bridge and solve prblms of the world

joelrmpls: Later, all. Great talking with you, as always.

BPRAL22169: Ciao

NuclearWasteUSN: Have fun Joel

AGplusone: see you Joel

joelrmpls: Bridge and booze sounds like fun….

joelrmpls has left the room.

AGplusone: And Felicia makes sushi and yakatori!!!!

NuclearWasteUSN: I make yakasoba

BPRAL22169: He’s talking about finishing a book. I’m envious…

AGplusone: oh, tell me more

NuclearWasteUSN: Why are we on food again?

AGplusone: hongry

BPRAL22169: buckwheat flour what?

AGplusone: pancakes

BPRAL22169: I have buckwheat flour in my freezer.

AGplusone: oh, yeah … any blueberries?

BPRAL22169: As a matter of fact, yes, I do have blueberries in my freezer, too.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have blueberries, and will send them to you if we can talk about Martians. :-)

AGplusone: you may begin defrosting

NuclearWasteUSN: along with some crabapple juice.

NuclearWasteUSN: Why are gjin and Kultsi so quiet?

AGplusone: That picture that George keeps asking about in Alaska … we were picking blueberries like I’ve never seen before … wild … about a gallon before we got done

BPRAL22169: Possibly they do not have buckwheat flour and blueberries in their freezers.

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: likely, in fact, although if Finland’s tundra is like Alaska Kultsi does

NuclearWasteUSN: We get some huge berries here in MN

BPRAL22169: Perhaps he went to get some frozen blueberries out of his freezer?

NuclearWasteUSN: Don’t know if it is the climate or the soil

AGplusone: the thing about Alaska is they grow together in bogs with cranberries

NuclearWasteUSN: Do they need to use a freezer in Finland?

BPRAL22169: Are you kidding? Finland IS a freezer…

AGplusone: we had to separate them

BPRAL22169: Blue . . .red . . . shouldn’t be that much a problem.

AGplusone: wasn’t

AGplusone: yum twice

BPRAL22169: Now, where are the lingonberries?

AGplusone: now if I could order the smoked salmon they call Eskimo candy … and sell by the roadsides. Norway

NuclearWasteUSN: What are they?

AGplusone: along with Reindeer sausage

BPRAL22169: The national bloodstream of Sweden, as far as I cna tell. Lingonberries and Herring. Not necesarrily at the same time…

NuclearWasteUSN: Talk to my father AG, he flies up there regularly. Mom hates smoked salmon and he loves it.

BPRAL22169: …although you never can tell with Swedes.

AGplusone: so long as it doesn’t include that awful salted cod … whatitcalled? Lutfiske

NuclearWasteUSN: Darn.

NuclearWasteUSN: Lutefick

NuclearWasteUSN: fisk

AGplusone: Boil it for five days and it still tastes terrible

NuclearWasteUSN: But dey make dem girls grow up tall and purdy yah!

SAcademy: My niece Lynnie loved the stuff.

BPRAL22169: Andy has a theory that much of the world’s exploration throughout history has been primarily motivated by trying to find a dinner that didn’t make you lose your lunch.

AGplusone: Ya! send t’oussands and toussands of im, I marry im all you betcha

NuclearWasteUSN: Can’t avoid it here in MN. Of course Ole and Sven are everywhere

NuclearWasteUSN: Finlanders and Swedes

AGplusone: tell us about Lynnie, Ginny …

SAcademy: Lynnie spent her high school senior year in a little place in Sweden, called Hedemora. We visited her there, and me ther Swedish family.

AGplusone: that is a wonderful opportunity

AGplusone: I always wanted to spend a lot of time in Scandanavia

SAcademy: There was only one problem about it–her Swedish family would spend a lot of time with us–they were great travellers.

NuclearWasteUSN: Was Mike a Martian, or do you think his idea that grokking is man is correct?

AGplusone: they always seemed to me to be the only sane area on earth

AGplusone: Which idea?

SAcademy: And they would come when R. Was in the middle of a book–they just didn’t understand a writer’s problems.

AGplusone: mike was a mutant

AGplusone: like Mowgli … a man but able to grok man because he didn’t have any preconceptions, or lies from the cradle to warp his view of them

NuclearWasteUSN: It just occured to me that his original assertion is that all that groks is man, then all that groks is god. Fits in well with Thou art God.

NuclearWasteUSN: brb

AGplusone: Mike was also so wise that he was innocently transparent and uniquely vunerable

NuclearWasteUSN: back

NuclearWasteUSN: I agree

AGplusone: Dogenes *sp>* Honest Man

NuclearWasteUSN: But with experience he was able to ape us well enough to get by

AGplusone: hard work

SAcademy: Do you honestly think that Robert thought of all these things when he was writing Stranger?

AGplusone: because we’re ultimately crazed

BPRAL22169: One of history’s mistranslations — Diogenes was looking for Plato’s ideal man.

AGplusone: I do

NuclearWasteUSN: I do not grok that I could say that. (Some lie that Jubal tried as an example)\

AGplusone: very subtle mind

NuclearWasteUSN: Ginny, I don’t know

NuclearWasteUSN: He very well may have. He seems to love symmetry, and multilevel puns

AGplusone: maybe intuitive or ‘unconscious’ representation, but coincidences are too many to have been solely unintended

NuclearWasteUSN: You have encouraged me to write, and I am certainly thinking about things like this as I write.

AGplusone: I think he expressed these things instinctively without thinking necessarily about them

SAcademy: Do you regret that I did?

AGplusone: because he had already thought about them and the concepts were automatic because they wer part of his persona

NuclearWasteUSN: Not yet, but some of the nights when the muse hits are getting a little long.

SAcademy: I think some of you could do a lot better than most s f writers these days.

AGplusone: ‘were’ … ‘personna’ fancy way of say his essential beliefs

NuclearWasteUSN: What SF writers? I see a lot of Fantasy, but not much SF

AGplusone: saying

BPRAL22169: You don’t have to think through every detail — the concepts entail certain other concepts.

AGplusone: everything dependant on prior conscious thoughts

AGplusone: a foundation of concrete that was mixed well before the expression

AGplusone: of the top level of the finished cement or dye

NuclearWasteUSN: He also wrote extensive notes, and some of these ideas must have occured then, even if they never made it to the paper.

AGplusone: so much gravel went in there, so much sand, so much CaCOsub3

AGplusone: or is it sub4

NuclearWasteUSN: Don’t you all do things that way? Write a few things down, knowing that you will remember the rest?

SAcademy: Ir’s four.

AGplusone: wish I did … I’m not particularly well organized yet

SAcademy: I think you are, David.

AGplusone: well, gotta get nose to grindstone then and *do* it

SAcademy: Why not? Among you, you could reorganize SF.

AGplusone: some day

NuclearWasteUSN: With a computer available how can you miss a chance to write notes? Open a document and start typing, send yourself an email, anything

SAcademy: Robert rewrote some of his earlier stories at a later date–

AGplusone: I think, honestly, you’re right, Ginny. but funny thing: I read Joe Majors and I want to know why he’s in in this chat

AGplusone: not in this chat

AGplusone: I’ve decided I like hismind

BPRAL22169: Good question.

AGplusone: which is why I linked his juvenile essays to our site

NuclearWasteUSN: Call ourselves The Boys from Boulder?

AGplusone: That’s possible. I did an assignment at Sps. close enuff

SAcademy: Why Boulder??

BPRAL22169: It alliterates with Boys.

SAcademy: Okay.

NuclearWasteUSN: Colorado reference and like Bill said, it alliterates well.

BPRAL22169: And it’s better than C.S.B.S.

NuclearWasteUSN: Colorado being where I always think of Robert, even though I lived in California)

AGplusone: Ever tell you about my buddy who went to Boulder and got expelled, Jim, during Vietnam

AGplusone: His name was Jim too

SAcademy: No. GA

NuclearWasteUSN: No, but I had a shipmate who had a similar experience. Micheal Wellington Smith

AGplusone: Tried to get into Naval Academy. Got a C minus in French, so they rejected him.

AGplusone: Went to Boulder. Disapppointed. In Colo Sps there is an equestrian statute of a colonel Palmer, who founded a hotel

AGplusone: Kids are Boulder consider the college in Colo Sps their rival.

SAcademy: Oh, yes, I know that story about the horse.

AGplusone: So, like all college kid they have pranks. The Staute is unusual for an equestrian statute. Correct in all respects and very clearly a stallion

AGplusone: so what they do is blow the parts off if they can get away with it

AGplusone: he had the dynamite caps in his dorm room closet

AGplusone: his roommate turned him in

NuclearWasteUSN: What an unfortunate choice of words.

AGplusone: next stop, the USS Epperson, DD-something or the other, offshore Vietnam

AGplusone: he retired a CWO boilertender, or whatever is, with 30 in the reserve, a couple years ago

NuclearWasteUSN: Mike simply had a misunderstanding about the honor code. It seems cheating also includes writing papers for profit to meet your tuition expences

NuclearWasteUSN: Boiler Tech, No longer a rate, they have merged with Machinist Mates since the advent of the nuclear reactor.

AGplusone: I thot so

NuclearWasteUSN: Mike became a Machinist Mate Nuke.

AGplusone: He’s the one whose parents evidentally knew Robert before the war in L.A. and told me about von Kleinsmidt

NuclearWasteUSN: von Kleinsmidt?

AGplusone: aka von Rheinschmidt in “Life Line” ….

AGplusone: yea

NuclearWasteUSN: OK

AGplusone: or were fans close enuf to have heard about it

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, it is almost 7, I am going to have to run soon.

AGplusone: I always wondered why he wanted the Naval Academy all through high school so much … and whether his parents influenced him to do so because of Robert

NuclearWasteUSN: By the way Ginny, just thought I would let you know a friend of mine showed up with a wood splitter and I am set up through next year :-)

AGplusone: because they really did support him, which was odd, in my mind, because they both were graduates of Stanford

AGplusone: and had large money

NuclearWasteUSN: USNA is a pretty good engineering school. Stanford grads always wish they had gone to MIT or USNA

AGplusone: could be

BPRAL22169: Gentles, I is out of here. Have a good one, one and all.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: yep … it’s time to go, Jim ….

NuclearWasteUSN: Well folks I am going as well. I will be online later if any of you want to yell at me.

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

SAcademy: Good night, all. See you

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: remember “fall back” nite all

DavidWrightSr: Good night

AGplusone: got it david?

AGplusone: Nite Ron, Dave … and Good Night from New York, David

AGplusone: Saved … let me know.

AGplusone: Bye

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:03 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 10/25/01 09:00 P.M. EDT Martians

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 10/25/01 09:00 P.M. EDT

Martians

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Heinlein Readers’ Group

AIM Chat October 25, 27

“Martians”

Reading: SIASL

Suggested: Rainbow Mars by Larry Niven, any other book dealing with Martians.

The question of how to describe Heinlein’s Martians recently arose, and, having recently read Rainbow Mars, it intrigued me. It seems to me that most “Martians” in Science Fiction are actually transplanted terrestrials. I tend to classify aliens in speculative fiction by their physical, social and phsycological traits. As an example I would classify Dejah Thoris from Edgar Rice Borroughs’ Mars series as physically, psychologically , and socially terrestrial.

In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?

Are truly alien Martians so rare because they are harder to write? Or are partially or wholly terrestrial aliens written because we must have something to identify with? Valentine Micheal Smith is intriguing in the first portion of SIASL, but would we enjoy the book as much if not for Jubal’s humanizing influence upon him? Does anyone truly identify with Heinlein’s Martians, or just with their place in his stories?

Jim
ERB’s Martians are good ones to look at; the Heinlein links are very strong. His Barsoom series gets mentioned in Glory Road (and probably elsewhere) as an example of high adventure and of course, it’s a plot element of NOTB.

I agree that Dejah is hard to see as alien. Despite the fact that she lays eggs ( and yet can still mate with John Carter) she’s just a very beautiful human, with exotic copper/red coloured skin ( I wonder if this was seen as daring in those days?) but still not that alien. The interesting thing about those books is that there are several dominant races though; the many armed savage green men of Thark for instance. Now they are more alien and they do seem to think differently than us too.

It’s also worth noting ( and I wonder if this is where Heinlein got the idea from) that the Tharkians have no humour, or at least not as we know it, which is of course, the same as the Martians of SIASL. Mike learning to laugh is a pivotal point in that book. This is what it says in “A Princess of Mars” “..I was to learn that the Martian smile is merely perfunctory, and that the Martian laugh is a thing to cause strong men to blanch in horror. The idea of humor among the green men of Mars are widely at variance with our conceptions of incitants to merriment. The death agonies of a fellow being are, to those strange creatures, provocative of the wildest hilarity, while their chief form of commonest amusement is to inflict death on their prisoners of war in various ingenious and horrible ways.”

The lack of love given to the children, who struggle to survive, is also comparable to the nymphs of SIASL, many of whom die in infancy.

Going back to the general theme, Mars has a reputation for being warlike; Mars, God of war, The Red Planet, red equating to blood, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, that sort of thing. That subliminal baggage attached to the word may be why, a lot of the time, Martians are represented as fearsome invaders. Another theme is that they have mental powers ( I’m relying on an old memory of Bradbury and the Martian Chronicles here, I may be mixed up). I’m thinking of that story when men land and it seems that their families are there and it’s all a trick.

It’s rare that the Martians are friendly neighbours. Wonder why?

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

> The question of how to describe Heinlein’s Martians recently arose, and,
>having recently read Rainbow Mars, it intrigued me. It seems to me that
>most “Martians” in Science Fiction are actually transplanted terrestrials. I
>tend to classify aliens in speculative fiction by their physical, social and
>phsycological traits. As an example I would classify Dejah Thoris from
>Edgar Rice Borroughs’ Mars series as physically, psychologically , and
>socially terrestrial.
> In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only
>alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems
>to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all
>three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?

One of the better descriptions of Martians were the three ‘hnau’ of Malacandra (“OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET,” by C.S. Lewis). After letting myself be transported to a land where height was accented more than on earth, I found that I did NOT recognize the two humans as humans when Ransom saw them after his time among the Malacandrans. It was a bit of a shock to recognize them, after not doing so. It seems that Lewis made an attempt to portray races that were alien, and he certainly seemed to succeed.

—Debbie Levi
“Debbie Levi”wrote in message

(snip)

>> In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only
>>alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems
>>to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all
>>three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?
>

I think that one of the most fascinating martians I have ever come across were in Stanley Weinbaum’s ‘A Martian Odyssey’

Weinbaum very capably wrote about a Martian who was very ‘alien’, but with enough commonality to humans that he/it was able to communicate at a certain level even though much of his behavior was totally ‘strange’. Along with the main Martian character Tweel, there was the ‘dream beast’ which lured it victims with some sort of hypnosis, the communal-hive characters carrying loads of stuff to a central ‘grinder’, (for whatever reason) and the virtually immortal, silicon, pyramid-building creatures. SF lost a great talent when Weinbaum died of cancer at a very early age, leaving behind only a few outstanding works. The worst problem that I have now with Weinbaum is that the paperback version of ‘A Martian Odyssey’ leaves out a whole bunch of the stories that I remember reading as a teenager in the 50’s.

OT: one of Weinbaum’s stories, ‘The Adaptive Ultimate’ has been developed on the large screen, and a number of times on the small screen, the only one I saw being on ‘Science Fiction Theater’ with Truman Bradley as host during the late 50’s, I believe.

(snip)

David Wright
“David Wright”

>I think that one of the most fascinating martians I have ever come across
>were in Stanley Weinbaum’s ‘A Martian Odyssey’
>
>Weinbaum very capably wrote about a Martian who was very ‘alien’, but with
>enough commonality to humans that he/it was able to communicate at a certain
>level even though much of his behavior was totally ‘strange’. Along with the
>main Martian character Tweel, there was the ‘dream beast’ which lured it
>victims with some sort of hypnosis, the communal-hive characters carrying
>loads of stuff to a central ‘grinder’, (for whatever reason) and the
>virtually immortal, silicon, pyramid-building creatures. SF lost a great
>talent when Weinbaum died of cancer at a very early age, leaving behind only
>a few outstanding works. The worst problem that I have now with Weinbaum is
>that the paperback version of ‘A Martian Odyssey’ leaves out a whole bunch
>of the stories that I remember reading as a teenager in the 50’s.

It would seem that you describe aliens using a different system. From this little bit it would appear that you concentrate more upon the psychological similarities where I notice the physical, social, and psychological differences. Is this a fair appraisal? Or, am I making too much stew from one oyster?

Would you care to flesh out your system of describing these aliens, and then give a fuller description of Weinbaum’s creations, as well as your take on Heinlein’s? It would be interesting to see how you describe them compared to my (as yet limited) description.

Jim
Speaking of Lewis’ Deep Heaven trilogy (a bit off the topic, I’m afraid) I recently ran into new hardback issues of Perelandra and That Hideous Strength at a used bookstore in Santa Cruz.

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message news:20011022214133.13602.00001139@mb-mm.aol.com…

>Speaking of Lewis’ Deep Heaven trilogy (a bit off the topic, I’m afraid) I
>recently ran into new hardback issues of Perelandra and That Hideous Strength
>at a used bookstore in Santa Cruz.
>Bill
>

Not off topic at all, Malacandrans are Martians after all. Thanks for the tip.

Jim
“Debbie Levi”

>One of the better descriptions of Martians were the three ‘hnau’ of
>Malacandra (“OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET,” by C.S. Lewis). After letting
>myself be transported to a land where height was accented more than on
>earth, I found that I did NOT recognize the two humans as humans when
>Ransom saw them after his time among the Malacandrans. It was a bit
>of a shock to recognize them, after not doing so. It seems that Lewis
>made an attempt to portray races that were alien, and he certainly
>seemed to succeed.

Lewis certainly managed to draw me right in. After early exposure to Heinlein, I noticed some books by Lewis on the shelves at home, and Out of the Silent Planet definitely caught my interest. I read the whole trilogy at a gulp, and then tried the Narnia books, which led to Tolkien, with a side trip into Lewis’ essays.

Lewis was certainly more physically descriptive than Heinlein, but I think that is more a matter of stylistic technique than it is a deficiency of authorial voice. Psychologically I would say that the Malacandrans were very much human, with the exception of the Eldil. (Too long since I read the trilogy, wasn’t Malacandra the name of the head Eldil, and where does Oyarsa fit in?)

How would you classify the different races created by Lewis and Heinlein? Do you use a methos similar to mine to describe them?

Jim
“Jane Davitt”

>ERB’s Martians are good ones to look at; the Heinlein links are very strong. His
>Barsoom series gets mentioned in Glory Road (and probably elsewhere) as an
>example of high adventure and of course, it’s a plot element of NOTB.
>
>I agree that Dejah is hard to see as alien. Despite the fact that she lays eggs
>( and yet can still mate with John Carter) she’s just a very beautiful human,
>with exotic copper/red coloured skin ( I wonder if this was seen as daring in
>those days?) but still not that alien. The interesting thing about those books
>is that there are several dominant races though; the many armed savage green men
>of Thark for instance. Now they are more alien and they do seem to think
>differently than us too.

Is adding four arms and naturally growing spanish armor really that much of a differnce? Physically they are still bilaterally symetrical. On the other hand, I may be strecthing a point too far to try and make it fit my original hypothesis.

>It’s also worth noting ( and I wonder if this is where Heinlein got the idea
>from) that the Tharkians have no humour, or at least not as we know it, which is
>of course, the same as the Martians of SIASL. Mike learning to laugh is a
>pivotal point in that book. This is what it says in “A Princess of Mars”
>”..I was to learn that the Martian smile is merely perfunctory, and that the
>Martian laugh is a thing to cause strong men to blanch in horror.
>The idea of humor among the green men of Mars are widely at variance with our
>conceptions of incitants to merriment. The death agonies of a fellow being are,
>to those strange creatures, provocative of the wildest hilarity, while their
>chief form of commonest amusement is to inflict death on their prisoners of war
>in various ingenious and horrible ways.”

First, I do not agree that they have no sense of humor. That theirs (Tharkian’s) is more base can not be denied, but they do have one. By ours I am going to have to assume that you mean post modern Western Culture, as the Roman Coliseum and it’s events would seem to be ideally suited to a Thark Warrior. (As would some of the passtimes in Nazi Germany, and the extremist Arab countries today.) These are not our own cultural norms, but they have been, and are, norms for different human cultures that exist with us here on this globe.

The Heinlein Martians lack of humor is an entirely different animal. There was no equivalent at all in there psychological map to the human emotion. Trust and bonding seem to be the only real commonalities between us, and it is hard to envision a species evolving without those two emotional components. (At least not a social one.)

>The lack of love given to the children, who struggle to survive, is also
>comparable to the nymphs of SIASL, many of whom die in infancy.

I am always reminded of spawning salmon when this is mentioned. Truly alien to us.

>Going back to the general theme, Mars has a reputation for being warlike; Mars,
>God of war, The Red Planet, red equating to blood, Men are from Mars, Women are
>from Venus, that sort of thing. That subliminal baggage attached to the word may
>be why, a lot of the time, Martians are represented as fearsome invaders.
>Another theme is that they have mental powers ( I’m relying on an old memory of
>Bradbury and the Martian Chronicles here, I may be mixed up). I’m thinking of
>that story when men land and it seems that their families are there and it’s all
>a trick.
>It’s rare that the Martians are friendly neighbours. Wonder why?

Even in SIASL they are not really friendly. Just ask the inhabitants of what was once the 5th planet. Could it be that the idea of Mars, God of War, and Martian Invaders has become so much a part of Western thought that even attempting to write friendly Martians is almost impossible? Have you read Rainbow Mars yet? Even Niven was unable to posit anything but warlike Martians. (On the other hand, Lewis’ Malacabdrans were not particularly warlike.)

Jim
“Nuclear Waste”writes:

>Lewis was certainly more physically descriptive than Heinlein, but I think
>that is more a matter of stylistic technique than it is a deficiency of
>authorial voice.

Does anyone else feel like reading Heinlein is a lot like listening to a radio program?

(Don’t take this as criticism, BTW. I love radio shows.)


Our enemies are never villains in their own eyes, but that does not make them
less dangerous. Appeasement, however, nearly always makes them more so.
— Don Dixon
______________________________________________________________________________
Charles R (Charlie) Martin Broomfield, CO 40N 105W

“Charles R Martin”wrote in message news:m3k7xm6sz0.fsf@localhost.localdomain…

>”Nuclear Waste” writes:
>
>>Lewis was certainly more physically descriptive than Heinlein, but I think
>>that is more a matter of stylistic technique than it is a deficiency of
>>authorial voice.
>
>Does anyone else feel like reading Heinlein is a lot like listening to
>a radio program?
>
>(Don’t take this as criticism, BTW. I love radio shows.)

Yes, exactly the same feeling. Enough description for you to paint your own picture, but not so much that it intereferes with your picture.

Jim

>>Does anyone else feel like reading Heinlein is a lot like listening to
>>a radio program?
>>
>>(Don’t take this as criticism, BTW. I love radio shows.)

Magical insight ! That is exactly what it is.

>
>Yes, exactly the same feeling. Enough description for you to paint your own
>picture, but not so much that it intereferes with your picture.

Perfectly stated…..my compliments.

cheers

oz
Yesterday afternoon I went shopping.
I was confronted in the parking lot
by someone selling bumper stickers.
I broke his nose and bent his bicycle
wheel spokes. Then I found a quarter.
It was a 1994P. I put it in the coin rack
in my SUV.

Jim kicked this subject we’re going to continue to discuss this Saturday afternoon off by observing:

> The question of how to describe Heinlein’s Martians recently arose,and,
>having recently read Rainbow Mars, it intrigued me.

“Martians,” or aliens have always generally intrigued me as well. Maybe it’s the influence we get from the tales we are told from babyhood: “Here there be monsters!” Or bogeymen, or giants, or elves, or fairies. How does Mowgli, the son of the alien “Pack,” or so he thinks, really think and function? Why?

>It seems to me that
>most “Martians” in Science Fiction are actually transplanted terrestrials. I
>tend to classify aliens in speculative fiction by their physical, social and
>physiological traits. As an example I would classify Dejah Thoris from
>Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Mars series as physically, psychologically, and
>socially terrestrial.

I’ve always been inclined to look at the function: the ‘monsters’ are always intended to present a challenge, a danger, physically, psychologically, or socially to the “men.” What’s the challenge? Why is it presented? To me, “form follows function” and I look to the purpose.

Take for example the Edgar Rice Burroughs tales of Mars. I admit it’s been quite a while since I’ve read all of them; but I reread the first, _Princess of Mars_, last year, and I’m looking at it again with the vague memories of past readings of all of them; and it seems to me that what Burroughs is creating is a nostalgic romance: John Carter is the displaced antebellum gentleman of the FFV (First Families of Virginia) that Twain parodied so mercilessly when Jim Crow began to raise his head in the late 1870s and 1880s; but who were also, in some cases, when not devoted to reestablishing a medieval order and reimposing actual slavery on persons of “color” and actual peonage on others of their ‘color’ but inferior to them in the social order (“po’ white trash”) were an idyllic sort, the chivalric gentle knight, kind, brave, and heroic.

This is the image James Ewell Brown Stuart, late Major General of Cavalry of the Armies of Northern Virginia, portrayed during the Civil War, during his short time of fame. Tristans, Rolands, Galahads, Gawains, the Red Cross Knight, … even the real Cincinnatus, and Washington and the Lees. That sort.

The story starts with Captain Carter, late of the Army of Northern Virginia, out grubbing for gold in Arizona … because the War has ruined his fortune, those hundreds of thousands of Confederate dollars are useless paper, and he can’t resume his gentleman’s life without filthy lucre. He can’t be beloved by everyone, even the slaves, because of his qualities as a perfect, gentile knight, without the comfort and leisure that a fortune will bring him.

So Burroughs creates a world for Carter to go ‘questing’ populated with aliens who function as Martian dragons, armies of enemies, fair princesses, and it’s a return to a fantastically altered past … a romantic one that never existed for the FFV in 19th Century except in the tales of Arthur and Charlemagne. The Martians are aliens, but only in the sense of puppets who look, act, and play the function of Guineveres that the Round Table’s knights could love, the Moors Roland and Oliver could nobly die stopping, dragons to be slain to rescue fair maidens or find or at least continue to seek the Grail.

And that, iirc, is what Captain John Carter does for the rest of the series, in between occasional pit stops. He resumes life as knight errant. His real life alternative was to become the father of George Smith Patton, Jr., II., and try to instill the same values into little “Georgie,” who was graduating, iirc, from West Point about the time Burroughs was writing the first of these. [Instead of fighting Martians, Georgie’s daddy left the South and moved to Pasadena and became a rich lawyer — and played host to famous visitors who had served with his father (the General who served the Confederacy), who impressed the son, later known as “Blood and Guts” Patton, that a knight could still serve the ideal of a country.]

> In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only
>alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems
>to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all
>three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?

I prefer function, but when function requires a vast divergence from human norms, the three tier classification you’ve created serves a useful purpose.

> Are truly alien Martians so rare because they are harder to write?

Take Edgar Pangborn’s Martians in _A Mirror for Observers_: they’ve assumed a human shape so well that they certainly pass, but they are so far removed from humans in virtue, that I’d describe them as performing the function of either Guardian Angels assigned to teach gentility to potential romantic heroes or Fiends assigned to individuals possessing the qualities to become new Hitlers or Stalins, to goad those flawed humans into actually becoming that, or possibly worse. Imagine a for real angel on one shoulder and devil on the other, whispering into the respective ears of every person. Right out of the religious dogma of Everyman! And that’s the function they perform, either they’ll succeed in uplifting man above his vices and bring a Heaven on Earth or inundate and submerge him into all manner of his vices and help him turn it into Hell.

For a mirror of this role, look at the functions the wolves, the bear, and the panther, on the one hand, and Shar Khan the lame tiger, on the other, perform upon Mowgli’s ethics in Kipling’s tales.

>Or
>are partially or wholly terrestrial aliens written because we must have
>something to identify with? Valentine Michael Smith is intriguing in the
>first portion of SIASL, but would we enjoy the book as much if not for
>Jubal’s humanizing influence upon him? Does anyone truly identify with
>Heinlein’s Martians, or just with their place in his stories?

Which gets me to the Martians of Heinlein, doesn’t it? What role do they play, angel or devil, in _Red Planet_ and _Stranger in a Strange Land _? Is it the same role, for they do appear to be the same Martians? What do we really think of the mainly off-stage Martians who groked the infant Michael Valentine, and taught him to grok, and then sent him back to his Pack? Are they the same Martians as the ones who share water with James Marlowe? In function, or merely in form?

Maybe we can talk about this a little this evening. See you all, 5 PM to 8 PM, EDT, tonight, Saturday, October 27, 2001, in the AIM chat room, “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

Jane Davitt wrote:

>
>Nuclear Waste wrote:
>
>>
>>Is adding four arms and naturally growing spanish armor really that much of
>>a differnce? Physically they are still bilaterally symetrical. On the
>>other hand, I may be strecthing a point too far to try and make it fit my
>>original hypothesis.
>>
>>> It’s also worth noting ( and I wonder if this is where Heinlein got the
>>idea
>>> from) that the Tharkians have no humour,
>>
>>First, I do not agree that they have no sense of humor. That theirs
>>(Tharkian’s) is more base can not be denied, but they do have one. By ours
>>I am going to have to assume that you mean post modern Western Culture, as
>>the Roman Coliseum and it’s events would seem to be ideally suited to a
>>Thark Warrior. Jim
>
>I wouldn’t get too hung up on the shape myself; remember what Jubal and Mike
>discuss, whether the disembodied brain was still human? They decide that shape,
>the envelope, doesn’t make the man, it’s what’s written on the letter. Going by
>that, the number of arms or even the similarity to us is irrelevant.
>Besides, Mars is so close to us that you’d expect them to be similar as the
>conditions, low gravity apart, are quite earth like.
>I agree that there are historical parallels between the Tharkians and the Romans
>but, and this seems to be what makes them really alien, pain is all that makes
>them laugh. I’m sure the Romans chuckled over other things as well as mayhem and
>destruction.
>
>Jane
>–
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org

One of the best bunches of aliens whose writer stuck to their own rules was in /Hunters of the Red Moon/, Marion Zimmer Bradley (1973). Darkovrians, by contrast, are essentially “human” but for the added abilities of Matrix handlers.

[Dennis M. Hammes]

>^,,^<
It is better to break ground and head into the wind
than to break wind and head into the ground.
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Dave … hear back from Connie

AGplusone: I’m watching PBS BBC …

DavidWrightSr: Nope. Nothing back yet. I was hoping that your message would spur her on.

AGplusone: hoped so too

AGplusone: I’ve loaded some new software today … a little unstable I think.

DavidWrightSr: Canals?

AGplusone: So if I go *poof* I’ll be back.

DavidWrightSr: I think I’ve got the same thing on.

DavidWrightSr: On tv that is

AGplusone: I’ve been reading canals … Niven’s book is fun. Went out and bought … Burroughs and Bradbury again. Talking about Northern Alliances now

AGplusone: hit supply route

DavidWrightSr: This appears to be Antique Roadshow

AGplusone: HQ of an Arab unit hit

AGplusone: same program?

DavidWrightSr: I think we are seeing different programs.

AGplusone: looking at ‘refuge’ camps on border of Afghanistan now … I get a kick out of the Taliban … hide with refugees …

AGplusone: lot of REMFs among them

DavidWrightSr: REMF?

AGplusone: go the the ‘front’ during the evening so they don’t get bombed in the cities

AGplusone: acronym … first three of which are “Rear” “Echelon” and “Mother”

DavidWrightSr: Gotcha

AGplusone: Just like the Russian commisars

AGplusone: Understand bin Ladin’s brigade has been sent out and dispersed among the other Taliban units to ‘stiffen morale’ …. LOL

AGplusone: probably the same way

AGplusone: 7.63 mm stiffening

DavidWrightSr: :-)

AGplusone: hear XP is getting mixed reviews

DavidWrightSr: I have had an eval copy for several weeks. Looks good with lots of security features. my machine is too slow for it

AGplusone: yeah, that’s the problem I hear. If you need it, you need a new machine.

AGplusone: 128 RAM minimum to use it.

DavidWrightSr: I’m studying win2k right now. They are a lot alike. Win2k required almost as much

DavidWrightSr: Well, ram’s cheap right now.

DavidWrightSr: Big disk required too. Win2k requires at least 600-750mb just for the OS

AGplusone: And a lot of nasty little “you really want to sign up with this and that … and little spies to make sure you don’t load it on your laptop too.”

AGplusone: Good ol’ Bill!

DavidWrightSr: The worst thing I’m aware of is the ‘activation’ feature which registers with MS and has to be redone if you modify too much.

DavidWrightSr: But I hear they are backing off of that somewhat

DavidWrightSr: We’re getting legal copies for each machine.

AGplusone: Well, they’re enforcing their license by deactivating your software if you load on your desktop and laptop without buying two copies … a license of adhesion which is probably illegal and anticompetive.

DavidWrightSr: I’m sure that the legal activities are going to continue into the indefinite future.

AGplusone: I’d like to have a loose half million for litigation and bring a class action on that ‘license’ …

AGplusone: make more than the asbestos lawsuits

AGplusone: solution of course is never go on the internet with your laptop

AGplusone: or figure a way to use the ethernet connection to run the OS from one machine. Can you do that?

DavidWrightSr: I’m sure that somebody will be putting out software to get around it.

AGplusone: shame …

AGplusone: depriving Bill of his hard-earned money

AGplusone: BBC is now reporting on XP …

AGplusone: Ballmer quacking

AGplusone: I rooted against Seattle just on general principals. Think Diamondbacks have a chance against the Yankees?

AGplusone: Ballmer is starting to look more and more like Mr. Burns from the Simpsons

DavidWrightSr: Lost whatever interest I might have had when Atlanta lost out.

AGplusone: Yeah, well … feel like me. With the idiots running the Dodgers these years, it’s a regular feeling.

AGplusone: FOX !

DavidWrightSr: Actually, I’ve never paid much attention anyway. My son is a big fan.

AGplusone: I was hoping the Indians would last … but no.

AGplusone: Maybe they’ll win another penant during my lifetime. Last time I was six.

AGplusone: Against the guess who?

AGplusone: oops … meant World Series

AGplusone: [Boston Braves … ] sound familar?

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, Kinda :-)

AGplusone: Kinda nice. Indians on both sides!

DavidWrightSr: Not PC these days. :-)

AGplusone: Maybe next year!

AGplusone: The Indians were named about their first team Captain. A guy who was an actual indian

AGplusone: Like Thorpe

DavidWrightSr: There was a guy who was really screwed !

AGplusone: yep

AGplusone: of course we don’t have Mauch Chuck anymore

DavidWrightSr: ?

AGplusone: But I hear the family is still fighting over unburying him and moving him.

AGplusone: Used a be a city in Pennsylvania called Mauch Chuck or somesuch. They made a deal. We’ll change the name of our town if you agree to let us bury you here …

AGplusone: and we’ll charge admission to your grave, make monuments, etc., bring in the touristas

AGplusone: so he agreed, and they did.

DavidWrightSr: Who was he. I’m not familiar with him

AGplusone: Thorpe

DavidWrightSr: Oh that was his indian name?

AGplusone: and some of his family … he’s buried there. Monuments, etc.

AGplusone: Jim Thorpe. No.

AGplusone: Was name of city going way back to revolutionary times

DavidWrightSr: I’m confused.

AGplusone: Jim Thorpe’s name was Jim Thorpe. They’d given up Indian names by then.

DavidWrightSr: That’s what I thought. Who was Mauch Chuck?

AGplusone: I have no idea. It’s probably a degenerate German name of something

AGplusone: or Pennsylvania Dutch

DavidWrightSr: Oh I get you. the town of Mauch Chuck changed their name to Thorpe?

AGplusone: Been named that since revolution … yes.

DavidWrightSr: Had never heard of that.

AGplusone: More specifically, Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania.

DavidWrightSr: I used to live in PA. wonder where it is

AGplusone: Got a recent atlas?

DavidWrightSr: I’ll have to look it up.

AGplusone: brb

AGplusone: About one-third of the way from Allentown to Wilkes Barre

AGplusone: on some river

DavidWrightSr: That’s quite a ways from where I lived.

DavidWrightSr: I was in Eastern PA in Exton.

AGplusone: in the Pocono mtns

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I was east of there

DavidWrightSr: Actually, not too far, I guess

AGplusone: can’t tell what the river is …

AGplusone: the Lehigh river

AGplusone: . . . anyway we got Ginny’s permission for that collector’s edition of the 41 Guest of Honor Speech … now I gotta learn how to make labels and burn CDs

AGplusone: only need about 100 of them for the first edition

DavidWrightSr: Is that going to the first members of THS?

AGplusone: Yep!

DavidWrightSr: Wow!

AGplusone: … well, Tawn kept saying: we need a bonus! And when Bill and I talked somebody out of a copy of the recording we thought: “D’oh!”

AGplusone: Even Ginny never had a copy of it.

DavidWrightSr: BRB. Gotta feed the cat

AGplusone: feed that cat … otherwise it’ll climb up on your lap

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening

AGplusone: Hi, Jim. Dave’s feeding the cat.

NuclearWasteUSN: I am feeding the short person

AGplusone: You do have one of them, doncha?

NuclearWasteUSN: Three years old and a monster, but mine so his peccadillos are endearing rather than bothersome

AGplusone: I’m going to load some tea on board …

AGplusone: and then talk my daughter into going out and buying me a nice bottle of plonk

AGplusone: when they get 21 they become useful

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL That is why I have a wife

AGplusone: Yeah, but … they’re harder to get to go out and buy a bottle of plonk

AGplusone: … they know better

NuclearWasteUSN: Mine will do anything for me as long as I cook

NuclearWasteUSN: Even hunt snipes

AGplusone: that’s terrible

AGplusone: I forget: what are ‘snipes’ in the Navy

NuclearWasteUSN: Not when you think about my rate in the Navy.

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Me

AGplusone: what were you Bos’n?

NuclearWasteUSN: Knuckle dragging wrench twisting snipe

NuclearWasteUSN: Good lord no!!!

AGplusone: machinist?

AGplusone: my brother was a corpsman

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes

NuclearWasteUSN: MM Nuke

AGplusone: Two tours on some supply ship called the Mars, supplying the ‘gun line’ and one on the ground with the grunts

AGplusone: ’67 to ’71

NuclearWasteUSN: Supply ships. *sigh* Shore duty with sea pay, and enough sea time to get duty free cigarettes

AGplusone: yeah

AGplusone: 13 cent cigarettes irrc

NuclearWasteUSN: Always wanted to find a nuke powered tender

AGplusone: at least that’s what they were on the Patch when I went over to Germany

NuclearWasteUSN: Camels on base at that time came with two pennies in the wrapper when you got them out of the machine

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jim. Welcome

NuclearWasteUSN: Used to claim them as my prize when Dad sent me to get some for him

AGplusone: like when I was a little kid. Put a quarter in, and got a nickle and two pennies back

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello David Thanks

AGplusone: Yep.

AGplusone: They were 18 cents when I was a kid

NuclearWasteUSN: I was just thinking about $1.00 six packs of Coke

AGplusone: or maybe 17 … I forget

DavidWrightSr: My wife’s brother was Lt. Cmdr in Navy. Had a degree in Music Education and talked the navy into thinking that an M.E. was Mechanical Engineering, so he went to engineering school. Did real well

AGplusone: Naw, 25 cents, plus a carton and six bottles when I was six!

NuclearWasteUSN: Now THAT was ingenious.

AGplusone: special price … ordinarily they were a nickel each

DavidWrightSr: Had just been assigned as Engineering Officer on the Yellowstone and died of a heart attack at 39

AGplusone: they charged two cents for the bottle and three cents for the cardboard carton for a six pack

AGplusone: so you really gave them forty cents for the six pack of bottles

NuclearWasteUSN: That is awfully young

AGplusone: yep, ’48

NuclearWasteUSN: 10 cent refund on bottle when I was young

AGplusone: last year the Indians won the World Series

NuclearWasteUSN: Do they still do that World Series thing?

AGplusone: uh-huh

NuclearWasteUSN: Or has outrageous pay finally killed it?

DavidWrightSr: Family had history. Father-in-law died at 54 and my wife had angioplasty to clear 3 arteries

NuclearWasteUSN: I thought they just awarded it to the highest spending team each year now

AGplusone: You take medicine for chlorestel I hope

AGplusone: I think I’m about to get that prescription myself. Got a visit to the doc scheduled Monday.

DavidWrightSr: Not me. my wife’s family. my problem is diabetes, but under control with meds

AGplusone: Annual physical

NuclearWasteUSN: No cholesterol or BP probs but I am overweight

AGplusone: and my blood pressure was too high to donate in Philly … she took it three times

NuclearWasteUSN: They love me, never a problem and veins you can hit with a dart from accross the room

DavidWrightSr: I had it under control when I lost weight, but put it back on. Just can’t keep away from food.

DavidWrightSr: under control without meds that is.

NuclearWasteUSN: Although may have a problem now, as they have prescribed percocet for pain.

NuclearWasteUSN: We are having a sci fi supper night

AGplusone: Yeah, well, neither did I, junior, at your age. My BP was always amazingly low the docs said

AGplusone: … then it changes

NuclearWasteUSN: Ever do that? Take a meal decribed in a story and make it?

AGplusone: Remember Shell Scott detective novels?

NuclearWasteUSN: Helps that I quit smoking finally

DavidWrightSr: If I did that with Heinlein’s I really would get fat(ter)

NuclearWasteUSN: That is why we have sci fi dinners, not breakfast

AGplusone: When I was a teen, my dad read them. Scott used to eat his breakfast made a certain way.

AGplusone: So I tried it. Pretty good.

NuclearWasteUSN: We are doing A Wrinkle in Time

AGplusone: They have a dinner in Wrinkle?

NuclearWasteUSN: Snack really, but good on a snowy night

AGplusone: What?

NuclearWasteUSN: Tomato soup and tuna on toast with cream cheese.

AGplusone: It’s six here, and I haven’t eaten yet

AGplusone: That’s good

AGplusone: we usually have toasted cheese with tomato soup

fgherman has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Sounded odd when I first read it, but it is wonderfull

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia

fgherman: Evening all

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening :-)

DavidWrightSr: Hi.

AGplusone: tell us about sushi … we’re into food now … dinners described in novels, ever make one?

NuclearWasteUSN: Some day I will do a Georges Perrault

fgherman: Around here (meaning the Twin Cities), food values are much beloved. ddavitt has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello Jane

NuclearWasteUSN: Really? You are in the Cities? I am on the Range

ddavitt: This is David Jane will be along soon

NuclearWasteUSN: Hey JUane

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane even

AGplusone: Hi, Dave. Glad to meet you!

fgherman: Where on the Range. We’re in South Minneapolis

AGplusone: meet two others here ….

NuclearWasteUSN: Nashwauk

NuclearWasteUSN: Between Grand Rapids and Hibbing

fgherman: Got a fair amount of snow.

AGplusone: already?

AGplusone: brrrrr!

NuclearWasteUSN: About 5 inches and still falling

AGplusone: omg

fgherman: 1st blizzard of the season

NuclearWasteUSN: tomorrow a high of 31 and flurries all day

NuclearWasteUSN: Was it as windy down there too?

AGplusone: pretty soon the wolves start crossing the ice from Canada …. 😉

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh no! We have beautiful wolves that live right here

fgherman: You know how bad those Canadians can be

AGplusone: Yeah, but their relatives come visit, right?

NuclearWasteUSN: At least most of them speak some French

ddavitt: Hi, it’s me now so behave!

fgherman: Do I have to?

AGplusone: yes, they say: “Merci, beaucoup … ” as they sit down to dine.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello Me!

ddavitt: Well, Ok, not if you don’t want to:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: One second fight

ddavitt: David was doing his Fantasy Football before he flies out to England

AGplusone: they still playing ‘football’ in England?

ddavitt: Mais oui!

AGplusone: Or are we talking about CFL football ….?

ddavitt: Soccer!!

NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry, cat and three year old fighting over tuna sandwich

ddavitt: Tuh!

ddavitt: Scary..

NuclearWasteUSN: Madrid Real

fgherman: I’d bet on the cat

ddavitt: All set to host Jim?

AGplusone: with twelve guys … the ‘rover back’ in motion towards the line.

NuclearWasteUSN: I guess so.

AGplusone: You imagine what a tight end type could do with that movement.

ddavitt: Liked your lead off post

NuclearWasteUSN: Thanks, but the conversation seemed to fizzle

ddavitt: I am looking at my cover of Princess of Mars; everyone is beautifully figleafed;-)

AGplusone: So’d I, but I’m only 125 pages into Niven, and went out to buy Burroughs and Bradbury today. Too long since I read them to remember which is which

ddavitt: It does; don’t get the long threads we used to somehow

AGplusone: … I can download Wells

ddavitt: I couldn’t get Rainbow mars; checked out of the library

AGplusone: I cheated. Read the Professors Note …

NuclearWasteUSN: I had Bradbury, and had to really beat my head to remember details from ERB

NuclearWasteUSN: You should have told me, I would have mailed it

ddavitt: The first few are good but the series got a little poor as it went on

AGplusone: I could not. read Princess only about a year ago, but the rest f***y years ago.

ddavitt: S’OK. I won’t be here for the Sat chat so no vital.

ddavitt: I will wing it

AGplusone: So I got Warlord and Gods as well as Princess and Chronicles

ddavitt: I have all the ERB’s.

ddavitt: Used to have the Carson of Venus series but that seems to have vanished

NuclearWasteUSN: Well I guess this is everyone, shall we start?

ddavitt: GA

AGplusone: … shoot

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, we are here to discuss how we describe Martians, especially those of Heinlein

NuclearWasteUSN: I set out my method in my original post, does anyone else have a different classification system?

ddavitt: Bodies, minds, morals was it?

NuclearWasteUSN: Social, physical and psychological

AGplusone: Niven gives us a hint in Rainbow … sez: Lewis’ endils are missing, and so are Heinlein’s Martians … more powerful than the author [meaning Niven].”

AGplusone: I like the classifications …

NuclearWasteUSN: Basically were they terrestrial or alien

AGplusone: or godlike

NuclearWasteUSN: I would say that godlike would be alien

NuclearWasteUSN: But that is my own bias

ddavitt: Planet destroyers; maybe demons not gods

AGplusone: Well, when I’m smoking some ‘good sh*t’ sometimes I think I am … ‘ as Lenny used to say.

AGplusone: Why not malign gods?

NuclearWasteUSN: Planet destroyers could describe us… Not particularly demonic or godlike really. Just bumbling and common

ddavitt: What defines alien? Jim, you seemed to be saying that the physical bit has to be radically different?

ddavitt: Looking at my cover of POM again, the green Tharks look way different

AGplusone: accidental, and usually we don’t run into folk who can turn us into gold statutes …

NuclearWasteUSN: Not really, but something more than the curren Star Trek brow ridge and ear shape

ddavitt: Isn’t upright with arms and legs fairly necessary?

ddavitt: Sure, they are easy aliens….

AGplusone: Del Rey cover, Jane?

ddavitt: Yes; now they DID read the book

ddavitt: Lovely job of depicting the races

NuclearWasteUSN: Not really Jane, just manipulative extensions

AGplusone: love those teeth!

NuclearWasteUSN: and some form of locomotion

AGplusone: boars

ddavitt: But with Mars being so similar to us and so close…

ddavitt: Not surprising they look similar

ddavitt: Heinlein’s don’t mind you

NuclearWasteUSN: What is similar? Lower gravity and pressure

ddavitt: Barsoom, not Mars..lower gravity still but other stuff the same

NuclearWasteUSN: And look at the differences in evolution from one continent to another…

ddavitt: It wasn’t a very accurate Mars

AGplusone: I like Carter’s Martians … and Flash Gordon’s too.

NuclearWasteUSN: Ack!

ddavitt: But which ones david? There were several dominant sentient races

AGplusone: “Ming the Magnificient” was!

NuclearWasteUSN: I have fallen into Number of the Beast, and am making Jake’s mistakes

ddavitt: Dejah’s red martians were just one

AGplusone: I liked them all.

AGplusone: All neat fantasy.

ddavitt: Unusual to do that; usually just one alien race and then alien animals

AGplusone: I thought so … but Flash Gordon did that too. Reminds me in a way of L.Frank Baum’s Oz

NuclearWasteUSN: Hard to think of a way that evolution could render two dominant races that are not constantly at war

ddavitt: Well, in POM, they are all fighting

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, I know.

AGplusone: “races” is the word, Jim.

ddavitt: So that agrees with your thoughts.

AGplusone: We had five then, when Burroughs was writing, didn’t we?

NuclearWasteUSN: Definitely.

ddavitt: If humans can’t get along, not much chance for different sorts of humans

NuclearWasteUSN: I have seen the accusation that ERB threw in warfare for color, but I think there was some thoughyt behind it

fgherman has left the room.

AGplusone: ‘black, brown, yellow, red, and white’ …. LOL

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘lo, Ron

ddavitt: The black race is villainous IIRC

DenvToday: Evening Dave

DenvToday: Hi everybody

ddavitt: Hi Ron

DenvToday: Hi Jane

ddavitt: But so are those with white skin

AGplusone: talking about the different ‘races’ in Burroughs and Flash Gordon’s Mars.

ddavitt: The red men are the nice guys

NuclearWasteUSN: More a case of species I think. Two species fighting for limited resources, one or the other will be wiped out, or, if evenly matched, they will reach equilibrium through attrition

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello there!

AGplusone: But the fun part is the tree in Niven’s Rainbow! What a name!

DenvToday: Hey Nuc

NuclearWasteUSN: All the names!

ddavitt: What is it?

DenvToday: I just started Pournelle’s King David’s Spaceship.

NuclearWasteUSN: Ygddrassil?

AGplusone: anyone notice how much like Poul Anderson’s Operation Luna, Niven’s Rainbow Mars parodies NASA?

NuclearWasteUSN: Moving everything here so I don’t know where the book is

ddavitt: That’s in Oath of Fealty too; a playground for kids in the enclave

ddavitt: Norse myths isnt it? Odin?

AGplusone: Yes. The basis of the world

NuclearWasteUSN: Also refered to as the Beanstalk. (Heinlein, Brin et al, not to mention from Jack and Fame)

DenvToday: I read Operation Chaos without reading Luna. I must go back and read it.

AGplusone: Loved the name of the Portugese sailor marooned.

AGplusone: You’ll enjoy it …

AGplusone: “Jack” … now they’ll go back and tell the story about how Jack brought down the goose that laid the golden eggs (with some modifications)

NuclearWasteUSN: Rainbow Mars was like reading TNOTB again, but with everyone’s myths

AGplusone: Wasn’t it?

ddavitt: Sounds like fun. Wonder why i couldn’t get into it when I first tried it last year?

ddavitt: I usually love their books

NuclearWasteUSN: It seemed to start really slowly for me, but that little bit of extra effort to get to the meat was worth it

AGplusone: Anderson’s or Pournelles and Niven’s

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane I put it down twice and came back to it.

AGplusone: I felt the same about Rainbow … then I realized he was awakening all sorts of old memories.

NuclearWasteUSN: Finally was the only thing in the car one day while I had a long wait.

AGplusone: I read Tarzan and John Carter when I was around eleven or twelve!

ddavitt: Well, as soon as it comes back, I’ll grab it

AGplusone: f***y years ago

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, Jane, since I feel comfortable picking on you, how would YOU classify the Martians of Stranger?

ddavitt: Ooh….sad and old

NuclearWasteUSN: ***=ivehundred and twent?

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: A dying race, ready to move on and all become Old Ones

ddavitt: Yet Willis….he was fun and raring to go

NuclearWasteUSN: There is a thought that never would have occured to me using my method

ddavitt: What is?

NuclearWasteUSN: Is that his youth and exposure to humans?

AGplusone: How about: foils … whitened sepulcures (sp?) too slow and lazy to make a difference … satire on academia (expect no Willis in Stranger)

NuclearWasteUSN: Old and ready to move on

ddavitt: Could be; all Jim’s fault:-):-)

ddavitt: Jim marlowe that is

NuclearWasteUSN: Sort of the opposite of Mike

ddavitt: They were slow, slow to react, slow to talk…

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Measured or weary?

ddavitt: Hi Bill

BPRAL22169: Hi, all. Sorry to be late.

AGplusone: spend too long ‘grokking’ the essence of sense

NuclearWasteUSN: No problem! Glad you are here

ddavitt: Are we assuming that RP and SIASL are the same brand of martians?

NuclearWasteUSN: Too long according to us

DenvToday: Evening Bill

BPRAL22169: Thanks, Jim — I presume.

BPRAL22169: Yo, Denv.

NuclearWasteUSN: I always thought they were

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes Bill, this is Jim

ddavitt: RP written first but comes after

ddavitt: Heinlein did that…

AGplusone: too long according to the narrator in SiaSL … by the time they decide it’ll be too late to turn Earth and humanity into the “Fifth Planet” and cherish their memory

BPRAL22169: Thought so. Yes, I believe they were intended to be the same Martians, complete to water-sharing ceremonies.

ddavitt: But H did use a lot of different martians.

ddavitt: Why, when he had the FH chart on the other hand?

AGplusone: Gods who spent too long up on Olympus.

NuclearWasteUSN: Still that is from our viewpoint. I don’t think the Martians of SIASL are the type to argue with the weather

ddavitt: Going from organised to chaotic

BPRAL22169: I don’t think SIASL is supposed to be Future History.

ddavitt: Double Star ones do seem to be akin mentally, protocol and all

ddavitt: No, it’s a different timeline

ddavitt: But …why?

NuclearWasteUSN: How so? I always thought they were moving to the point where everything was planned\

BPRAL22169: I think in the World as Myth books he implies SIASL takes place in your, mine, and RAH’s timeline.

ddavitt: Why not fit them all under the umbrella?

ddavitt: Yes, Jubal and Mo are different lines

BPRAL22169: He felt constrained by the umbrella and lost interest in it after Shasta collapsed.

ddavitt: From what he says he is our world

AGplusone: Are the children that Bonforte simply Willis that have metamorphized and not yet grown to their full ‘adult’ minds and bodies?

DenvToday: The Martians of SIASL are the Red Planet Martians, aren’t they?

ddavitt: Similar feel to them

AGplusone: “… Bonforte [stops and cuddles] simply … ”

ddavitt: I think so Ron

BPRAL22169: I don’t think the Double Star Martians are adult stage — in SIASL he says Old Ones look like adults — i.e., an iceboat in full sail.

ddavitt: Jim G lists about 4 or 5 different martians in all the books and stories

ddavitt: But all are of ancient races, are skilled and mystical in many ways

AGplusone: We also walk … not much too see of them …. ditto for Podkayne … and Between Planets … they are mostly ‘off-stage’

ddavitt: Not often the martians are a primitive race and we can show them something new

AGplusone: Not in Heinlein

ddavitt: Why do we have this inferiority complex towards aliens?

NuclearWasteUSN: Not in any story Jane, good observation

AGplusone: H.G. Wells

ddavitt: Yep, they come, they invade, we die

AGplusone: fear of the powerful ‘aliens’

BPRAL22169: Wells’ Martians are in Rainbow Mars.

ddavitt: OK, we win but then we have to or no one would read it:-)

AGplusone: Those guys over there who cast spears with bent sticks

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, Venusians are generally backwards, and half of the races in the Galaxy seem to need our help to have a hand up

AGplusone: farther than we can ….

BPRAL22169: Something about “Martian Wisdom” and the early 20th century nut cults comes to mind.

ddavitt: But it’s true that we do seem to fear our closest neighbour

ddavitt: And call it by names that inspire fear

AGplusone: specially if they have ‘magic’

DenvToday: Depends on the Venusians. Several races. The dragons are our superiors.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, Ginny said she might be here later.

AGplusone: good

ddavitt: Great!

DenvToday: How nice!

NuclearWasteUSN: Then there are the Malacandrans of Lewis’;

DavidWrightSr: The martian I mentioned in Weinbaum appeared to be more intelligent that the narrator.

DavidWrightSr: but not threatening

ddavitt: Haven’t read the Lewis books for years; can’t recall them at all

BPRAL22169: There was a menagerie in Weinbaum, wasn’t there?

AGplusone: I still think “Gods” are the Heinlein style Martians … traditionally the ‘visitors’

NuclearWasteUSN: That is a book I need to find

AGplusone: I don’t even know what the Lewis titles are with Martians

DavidWrightSr: At least four types described.

BPRAL22169: I found a new hardback issue of Perelandra and That Hideous Strength in Santa Cruz — Archer Press, I think

AGplusone: Be nice if someone listed them

NuclearWasteUSN: Out of the Silent Planet for the Martians

BPRAL22169: Yes. Ek Thulcandra

NuclearWasteUSN: Perelendra is Venus

ddavitt: Your wish is granted

ddavitt: I have seen them all in one volume

ddavitt: paperback

AGplusone: *ding*! [Jane’s magic wand]

BPRAL22169: That Hideous Strength has Arthur Clarke, a disembodied head, and the return of Merlin.

NuclearWasteUSN: And the last book was That Hideous Strength

AGplusone: You may turn Bob into a magnificant black stallion for me to ride to the ball.

BPRAL22169: Ransome is suppose to have been patterned on AC

NuclearWasteUSN: Did not really understand that book when I first read it at 8

ddavitt: certainly!

BPRAL22169: No, I think you have to be at least 12

ddavitt: Me too; I went to then fresh from narnia and over reached myself

ddavitt: That’s why I am vague on them

BPRAL22169: I never bothered with the Narnia books.

ddavitt: I loved them

BPRAL22169: That is, I read half of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

NuclearWasteUSN: I was warned, but the warning just served to make certain I would finish them

DenvToday: Fifty years ago, children of 8 had superior reading skills to those of today’s 12-year-olds, generally speaking.

ddavitt: At what age?

BPRAL22169: I think I was 20 at the time.

ddavitt: Too old. poor Bill

NuclearWasteUSN: I read the Space trilogy first

AGplusone: Question:

AGplusone: Is it fair to consider most martians either examples of beast tales, or “Lo, the oppressed indian … “?

NuclearWasteUSN: Denv, it was not reading skills, it was a lack of referrents.

BPRAL22169: I think you’re right, Jane.

ddavitt: Elucidate AG

ddavitt: Some classics need to be read first as a child to be appreciated as an adult

DenvToday: Yes, of course you’re right Nuc. But I never pass up a chance to put in a dig at our educational system. lol

AGplusone: Well, except for the Godlike ones like Heinlein’s we have mostly dying out aliens or examples

AGplusone: of what and how we should act … e.g., Bradbury

NuclearWasteUSN: I tend to do that on occasion

DenvToday: David, are we going back to Fennimore Cooper’s Noble Savages?

ddavitt: They are decadent, used up. How is that realted to our changing perceptions of the planet?

AGplusone: dat’s who “Lo, the oppressed savage … ” was.

ddavitt: I mean, barsoom was lively but back then we didn’t know what mars was like

ddavitt: Now we know , will we ever have different martians?

AGplusone: I mean Uncas was the hero!

AGplusone: Not Long Rifle

DenvToday: I wasn’t sure of the reference. But that’s normal for me.

ddavitt: Even Heinlein’s canals aren’t there

NuclearWasteUSN: In Lewis the planet is dying, but the races are vigorous

AGplusone: Uncas was Leonidas and the Spartans

ddavitt: But why is it dying at all?

ddavitt: Foreshadowing of earth’s fate?

BPRAL22169: Old Percival Lowell speculation that Mars was older than earth.

ddavitt: Are they a warning to us?

AGplusone: sure

DenvToday: Hmmm….takes me back. One of my favorite movies as a very young kid.

BPRAL22169: Hence the Barsoom of Burroughs — set the paradigm for everyone else.

NuclearWasteUSN: No, it was an attack by Thulcandra who was cast down

AGplusone: I kept thinking that was how Rainbow was going to end … the timetravelers destroy Mars ultimately by their bumbling

ddavitt: Power coupled with sterility; a dead end evolutionarily speaking

BPRAL22169: And there are the Martians of A Mirror for Observers — almost forgot them.

AGplusone: [hard to]

BPRAL22169: Andy Thornton points out also H. Beam Piper — earth was colonized from Mars in that one, too.

AGplusone: Trying to ‘uplift’ us in the David Brin sense.

BPRAL22169: And then there is Niven’s Martians — an excellent creation in their own right.

DenvToday: I’m always suprised that canals were considered a sign of intelligent life. Every been to Erie? I rest my case.

DenvToday: Ever been to Erie, that is.

ddavitt: Well, being serious, they usually indicate commerce

AGplusone: Well, then you gotta consider that Watt hadn’t really worked out that newfangled teapot thing.

AGplusone: And until he did, those canals were the way to go.

DenvToday: That’s true. I was being flippant. I spent a lot of time in Erie, PA as a child.

NuclearWasteUSN: An engineering work able to be view accross space?

ddavitt: In NOTB they decide there is no civilisation in a world where 2 rivers meet and there is no town; water is vital to growth

AGplusone: I know, so was I

NuclearWasteUSN: Can you see the Great Wall from Mars?

DenvToday: :-)

ddavitt: can’t see it from space apparently

ddavitt: Or so I was told

AGplusone: Can you see Hoover Dam?

NuclearWasteUSN: I have been told you can

AGplusone: Or the Aswan

DenvToday: Our cities could be seen from Mars by a technilogically advanced race.

ddavitt: A canadian astronaut visted David’s company and told them it’s too narow and covered in vines

ddavitt: Allowing for exageration, I see his point

DenvToday: technologically rofl

NuclearWasteUSN: Darn, there goes another good urban legend

AGplusone: Or if the Chinese turn the Yellow into a lake, you’ll see that big time.

ddavitt: Life just has all the fun sucked out when you bring facts into it…

BPRAL22169: I think Lowell was writing in the 1890’s based on Schiapparelli’s earlier observations, so Lowell’s Mars kicks off both Wells and Burroughs.

AGplusone:

DenvToday: So very true, Jane. Cervantes agreed too.

ddavitt:

DenvToday: Dave, you say that as if it’s a bad thing. lol

AGplusone:

DenvToday: Being crotchity is one of the things you earn with years. You’re entitled.

ddavitt: Get my links up so we can start making money hand over fist

AGplusone: But I Will by Saturday

ddavitt: Before folks start Christmas shopping

AGplusone: And reread Pangborn too, Bill.

AGplusone: That was a good cite!

ddavitt: Jim, a question

ddavitt: How does the indifference of the SIASL Martinas to the nymphs

NuclearWasteUSN: I like the idea I saw today for Jani to record Gay Deciever computer wavs

BPRAL22169: That particular book is worth a re-read.

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes?

ddavitt: fit in with the attitude towards Willis

AGplusone: yes … many times

BPRAL22169: Another important Martians — Piper’s “Omnilingual.”

ddavitt: The hope of a new world and all that

NuclearWasteUSN: Willis was ready to by cherished and grow.

DenvToday: I’ve never read any Piper. I must correct that.

NuclearWasteUSN: Before he was at that point the adults would not have paid any attention

BPRAL22169: I think they made a point of Willis being somehow special.

ddavitt: Why cherish him whn the nymphs die in droves?

AGplusone: real Darwinism if you consider it to be that way …

DavidWrightSr: Just finished that one of Piper’s. Interesting

NuclearWasteUSN: At least that is how I read it.

ddavitt: Lots of other bouncers though

ddavitt: At least in the revised edition

AGplusone: like plankton

BPRAL22169: I think “Omnilingual” is the archetypal science fiction story.

NuclearWasteUSN: Except that they did gather them in when they were ready to be cherished

ddavitt: Jim finds Willis in a whole room of them and can’t tell which is Willis

DenvToday: I feel a trip to the library coming on.

NuclearWasteUSN: And IIRC Willis was at that point

BPRAL22169: Interesting — the Nymphs had discovered an important new survival strategy: enchant a human.

ddavitt: Is this a Lummox thing/?Lots of Hrosshii but only one Princess?

AGplusone: Think of how many lobster never make it past the plankton stage … makes you want to go out and nourish them [and bring them into a nice place that no one else knows about]

NuclearWasteUSN: I always had a feeling of Harvest time when they mentioned it

ddavitt: Is a bouncer a nymph?

AGplusone: yes!

AGplusone: pre-nymph maybe

BPRAL22169: No — doesn’t RAH say something in there about sorting strategies: you either have lots of offspring and let nature do the sorting… in which case you put little effort into each offspring…

DenvToday: David, think of all the melted butter that never gets used. So sad.

AGplusone: like an egg

ddavitt: Bouncer, baby, nymph teenager ( which is why no one cares if they die)

BPRAL22169: or you have a few offspring and put a lot of effort into them individually.

ddavitt:

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, AG We can hide them in my kitchen

AGplusone: MY kitchen

ddavitt: I could never eat lobster

NuclearWasteUSN: David, Brin mentions this as well.

BPRAL22169: More for me!

ddavitt: shudder. Boiled alive. Picked out of a tank.

DenvToday: lol Bill. And me!

AGplusone: “send t’ousands and t’ousands of ’em” I’ll teach ’em how to sing, you betcha!

ddavitt: You can have ’em

BPRAL22169: Goody.

DenvToday: Jane, start on lobster tails and claws–not in the shell. You’ll be an addict in short order.

NuclearWasteUSN: You will never grok their fullness

ddavitt: Did I tell you what David ate in the Algonquin BIll?

AGplusone: Yes! And you didn’t send me the address.

BPRAL22169: “send ‘t’ousands and ‘tousands of em — I’ll grok ’em, you betcha!”

ddavitt: smoked on premises elk, followed by emu in chocolate, lavender and red wine sauce

BPRAL22169: No, jane.

ddavitt: Did too

AGplusone: “emu” was what got my wife!

BPRAL22169: Emu in chocolate?

ddavitt: Sent you the web page and everything

ddavitt: Yep.

BPRAL22169: I don’t remember that.

AGplusone: never got it

ddavitt: I tried that and it was nicer than it sounds

DenvToday: Jane, you kinow what they say: When in Venice, do as the venisons do.

BPRAL22169: However, the smoked elk sounds delectable.

ddavitt: heh

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane he would enjoy a visit here, I have Moose, bear, venison and partridge in the freezer currently

ddavitt: He would love that Jim

AGplusone: So, Jane, if some lady named Joanne Atkinson calls you on the phone one day, treat her nicely and she’ll pay for dinner.

ddavitt: It is way expensive…but worh it

ddavitt: I will send it you again David

DenvToday: Have any of you ever visited Denver? The Fort restaurant is this nation’s finest game restaurant.

NuclearWasteUSN: How about Martian dietary habits?

ddavitt: Do they eat?

NuclearWasteUSN: Anything other than RAH and ERB?

AGplusone: t’anks (another use for Jane’s magic wand …. *ding*!) cannibalism …

BPRAL22169: Simple: martian dietary habits are martians.

ddavitt: Forgot that!

ddavitt: But that is when food is scarce so must eat other stuff

AGplusone: Sound like good Christians to me!

BPRAL22169: The question is: do they eat anything else? They must. There is mention of agriculture on mars.

NuclearWasteUSN: Mike always did need a little salt

NuclearWasteUSN: They told the crops when and where to grow

AGplusone: like the ‘little people’ eh?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes.

NuclearWasteUSN: When he is one the way to the hospital, or to the meeting with Douglas it is mention\ed

NuclearWasteUSN: I know he is traveling at the time

AGplusone: I wonder if any Martian ever wrote a book entitled “To Serve Man”

NuclearWasteUSN: Just a moment

ddavitt: But water is the prime importance.

BPRAL22169: They don’t seem to have anything corresponding to gastronomy.

AGplusone: I.e., the Lieutenant who went between two rocks and never came out. You don’t think they ‘wasted’ him, do you?

ddavitt: Told you; decadent

BPRAL22169: No, they turned him 90 degrees from everything else — not ate him.

ddavitt: Well, if he gets discorporated he’s not much use

AGplusone: make good stock

BPRAL22169: they “rotated him.”

AGplusone: probably was from ‘good stock’

ddavitt: bad pun!

BPRAL22169: Andy points out: the human martians ate spaghetti with tomato sauce.

AGplusone: nearer in your bloodlines than mine. We Irish is civilized!

AGplusone: been eting potatoes longer than you think

NuclearWasteUSN: Darn I can’t find it right off.

NuclearWasteUSN: I will find it tonight

DenvToday: Now I’m craving corned beef.

NuclearWasteUSN: So what have we got so far?

AGplusone: I’d eat anyting right now, even a sophrano lobster!

NuclearWasteUSN: My rather stilted method, and Jane’s poetic description. Anyone have anything in between?

NuclearWasteUSN: And Bill’s hunger pangs

AGplusone: what is the purpose of having a Martian (Venusian, etc.) in the story?

BPRAL22169: I wasn’t able to find anythin gother than a mention of crops and plants being taught to grow. SAcademy has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Ginny

BPRAL22169: Howdy.

AGplusone: form follows function, seriously

DenvToday: Good evening!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Welcome

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening Mrs. Heinlein SAcademy: Good evening,. Sorry to be so late.

BPRAL22169: Nice dinner?

NuclearWasteUSN: No problem we are glad you are here

AGplusone: We had Lobster! SAcademy: Great, thanks.

ddavitt: We are all hungry because the talk has moved to food Ginny

ddavitt: As it tends to do..

AGplusone: ‘virtually speaking’ of course. Jane had emu

DenvToday: Roe, roe, roe your lobster boat.

BPRAL22169: You will be happy to know Jane is giving up her share of the world’s supply of lobsters.

ddavitt: Who can I nibble on?

NuclearWasteUSN: We actually started with food Jane.

ddavitt: The cats are too furry…

NuclearWasteUSN: From A Wrinkle in Time

DenvToday: They’re also darned fast.

AGplusone: Dave Wright’s cat was hongry earlier than that

ddavitt: That is being filnmed apparently SAcademy: Maine lobster? I’ll take her share.

ddavitt: Ginny, you can have my lifetime supply:-)

BPRAL22169: I thought you might.

NuclearWasteUSN: I can make the tuna on toast with cream cheese SAcademy: Thanks, Jane!

AGplusone: Back to ‘form follows function’ Jim?

BPRAL22169: I’m not sure A Wrinkle In Time would make a very exciting movie.

ddavitt: I didn’t eat the emu exactly; I’m not adventurous. Just had a tiny taste

NuclearWasteUSN: Could be…

ddavitt: I had muscovy duck breast in rhubarb and port wine

AGplusone: If you have a ‘hero’ like John Carter, clean limbed fighting man of Virginia ….

AGplusone: then you have a lot of Porky Pigs with ‘target’ on their chests.

NuclearWasteUSN: Why are the Martians in the Story? In SIASL they seem to be an integral part of the story, but in some books the aliens are more window dressing and could be replaced with Capt. James Hook

AGplusone: But if you have a bunch of screwed up people like in Pangborn, you have savants

ddavitt: He had an advantage over them because of the gravity; he seemed like superman

AGplusone: and ‘anti-savants’ …. SAcademy: Snowy is howling. Soemthing is wrong.

BPRAL22169: rival cat, I bet.

AGplusone: who are pretty omniscient

ddavitt: Nother cat

BPRAL22169: which “the story,” Jim?

NuclearWasteUSN: Or a three year old

ddavitt: That gets mine beserk, clawing at the window

NuclearWasteUSN: Generic the story

ddavitt: We like aliens in stories though; they are interesting

ddavitt: Scary ( because alien; stranger = enemy and all that)

BPRAL22169: Well, SF is typically cast as a Romance, so the Martian can be Hero or Villain or simply Other. It can be angelic or demonic.

AGplusone: And if you have ‘humans’ who will expand and occupy the universe, eventually, like SiaSL, you have a satire of powerful impotents … who spend too much time grokking!

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, but are the best stories the more fully fl;eshed aliens?

BPRAL22169: And doesn’t that begin to sound like Wells’s Martians, David?

ddavitt: But SIASL said they were NOT aliens but men

AGplusone: Yes

AGplusone: killed by germs

BPRAL22169: I don’t know, jim — the best stories are the ones with the best storytelling.

ddavitt: Even though they fulfilled your three categories well, Jim

NuclearWasteUSN: Good point.

ddavitt: looked different, thought different, acted different

BPRAL22169: “So round, so firm, so fully packed.”

ddavitt: That’s Job and a cigarette yes?

NuclearWasteUSN: Heinlein’s Martians are fully fleshed to me, but others rely more on the author for description

ddavitt: They wouldn’t get away with that nowadays!

BPRAL22169: Just so.

DenvToday: Do you prefer aliens who are human-like in thought (Sir Isaac Newton) or truly alien aliens, such as those in Methuselah’s Children?

AGplusone: Call Cental Casting for some …. [wadda we need for the story here, what kind of extras?] …

BPRAL22169: I get awfully tired of Star Trek’s aliens with nose appliances.

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane they were “man” in that they grokked, but I still tyhink there is a difference

ddavitt: Don’t know..

BPRAL22169: hnau SAcademy: What does “hnau” mean?

NuclearWasteUSN: From CS Lewis

ddavitt: Me too..but I think the physical bit is of little importance.

BPRAL22169: In Lewis’ Out of the Silent Planet, all intelligent things (martians) are hnau.

NuclearWasteUSN: Out of the Silent Planet, Hnau were the intelligent races IIRC

ddavitt: Or is it?

AGplusone: I wanted to read the story in which Lazarus went back and asked them, “Bub, what do you know that I don’t?”

BPRAL22169: there’s an odd correspondence with “all that groks is god.”

ddavitt: We shallow people judge on appearcnce; maybe it’s the most important

NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, do we really?

NuclearWasteUSN: Is your cat “people”?

BPRAL22169: “Robert Heinlein and C.S. Lewis — together again, for the first time.”

ddavitt: I recall that cliche story. Yuccky aliens jump out of a ship pursuing teddy bear looking ones..guess which we kill and which are the real baddies?

ddavitt: Well, they have personalities but they are cats.

AGplusone: Andre Norton’s early ‘aliens’ were all evolved into ‘humanoid’ … like the jury in Have Space Suit–Will Travel …

BPRAL22169: Ah, yes, the Twilight Zone school of science fiction…

NuclearWasteUSN: We would now kill the teddy bears, and save money by stuffing and selling them

ddavitt: It was a comic actually…2000AD

ddavitt: LOL! SAcademy: Not the koalas!!!

DenvToday: Note to self: Warn all Ewoks about Nuc.

ddavitt: Well. we have to get up at 5.30, or at least David does to catch his flight.

NuclearWasteUSN: Actually, I have a stuffed Ewok, oddly enough

DenvToday: Night Jane.

NuclearWasteUSN: OK Jane, take care

ddavitt: He is off to san Jose after the UK trip

BPRAL22169: Have a good sleep.

ddavitt: But that is a long way from you isn’t it AG? SAcademy: Good night Jane.

BPRAL22169: Tell him to postppone until next September,a nd he can attend ConJose

BPRAL22169: About 450 miles from David; about 120 miles from me.

ddavitt: See you all soon but not Saturday; we are invited out as people feel sorry for us all alone

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

ddavitt: Good point. Night all. ddavitt has left the room.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Welcome back

BPRAL22169: I “esc”d out.

AGplusone: Like the cute aliens in the Galaxy Quest …

DenvToday: wb

BPRAL22169: thx

NuclearWasteUSN: I loved that movie

NuclearWasteUSN: The ultimate cliche

DenvToday: It was very funny. Dead-on satire.

AGplusone: Better than Trek!

AGplusone: loved those little sharp teeth!

NuclearWasteUSN: So Ginny, perhaps you are the best one to ask… How would YOU describe/ classify Robert’s Martians? SAcademy: They were thought up while R. was doing Red Planet, and also when he SAcademy: was working on another story–Gulf and also SAcademy: what became Stranger. So they all have the same Martians.

NuclearWasteUSN: (Ah ha! I KNEW the Red Planet and SIASL Martians were the same!)

AGplusone: was hard to reconcile ‘tree trunks’ in Double Star with the ‘ice boats under sail’ … and I wondered whether we had a branch in development there. SAcademy: Yes. R. had a lot of notes he had made for Red P;lanet and couldn’t use there, so he used them in Stranger.

NuclearWasteUSN: Was that pun intentional AG?

AGplusone: nah … not that smart

DenvToday: One of the things I like most about Red Planet was that RAH left some ambiguity–not neatly wrapped up.

NuclearWasteUSN: So, aside from Lewis, Heinlein, and Weinbaum, are there any other truly alien Martians?

AGplusone: but here we have Yggdrasil … SAcademy: R. always said that he wrote more notes while doing a story that he couldn’t use in that one, and he used those for future stoires.

DenvToday: We never really discover Willis’s true nature.

AGplusone: how’s that for alien … SAcademy: Willis was an egg.

AGplusone: so was Mike, “only an egg” SAcademy: Yes.

NuclearWasteUSN: Ygddrasil was not Martian in origin

DenvToday: Yes, but Willis seemed to be THE most important egg. Why?

AGplusone: scary what happens when they hatch sometimes ….

BPRAL22169: I seem to recall a short story — Blish? About spherical energy balls.

AGplusone: out comes a Roc

NuclearWasteUSN: I never got that Willis was more important, just that he was ready to be taken in and cherished to grow into an adult

AGplusone: certainly not more important than Lummox

DavidWrightSr: There was something about his real name wasn’t there?

NuclearWasteUSN: I would have to pull the book out

AGplusone: wasn’t he a special breeding project too?

BPRAL22169: Has anyone read the colored Mars books — Blue mars, Green Mars, Gold Mars with Pink Polka Dots? SAcademy: Most bouncers didn’t make it to adulthood.

DenvToday: Really Nuc? I could be wrong. I always had the impression that Willis was uniquely important to the Martians. Guess I could be wrong.

BPRAL22169: Kim Stanley Robinson?

AGplusone: one and one-half of ’em …. before I gave up

AGplusone: do they ever find Martians?

BPRAL22169: Any interesting aliens in them?

AGplusone: Not a one

AGplusone: nor interesting humans, either

NuclearWasteUSN: Denv, I could be wrong as well, but I saw no evidence for Willis being truly special.

DenvToday: I’ll have to go back and reread the book.

BPRAL22169: I think one of the martians said Willis was special in some way but didn’t specify.

DenvToday: Have we ever decided if Doc McRae was Lazarus?

NuclearWasteUSN: One more to add to the read pile

AGplusone: No, there was. The adults were really p.o.’d when they found out about the deal to sell him to the zoo. I think it’s mentioned that Willis was bred specially … maybe one of a class, but special.

NuclearWasteUSN: Doc? Maybe a Howard, but not Lazarus

BPRAL22169: I think ultimately we couldn’t make the dates match up for him to be Lazarus Long — he was supposed to be on Venus when the mars revolt took place.

DenvToday: Again…tantalizingly ambiguous. I love it.

AGplusone: He probably forged the records, but he’s not Laz. “Smitty” is Laz, cosmetic age much younger and weaseling his way into the PTB structure.

AGplusone: Collecting little favors

DenvToday: hmmm…never considered that.

NuclearWasteUSN: So we know how we describe the different Martians…

AGplusone: that’s because you’re not as bizarre as I am … I just think Smitty is far far too crafty ….

NuclearWasteUSN: How about we think about what makes a good Martian for us for Saturday?

AGplusone: ‘kay

AGplusone: other than a ‘dead one’?

NuclearWasteUSN: Too much early Wells exposure

AGplusone: What happened to the Martians by the time Podkayne shows up.

NuclearWasteUSN: Are they all gone, or just not near her?

AGplusone: no real mention

NuclearWasteUSN: Or is Poddy a different timeline?

BPRAL22169: IIRC there were a few individuals around, but the civilization was dead and gone.

BPRAL22169: Different timeline, I think.

AGplusone: just that daddy keeps studying their archeology …

AGplusone: died off faster than the injun’s after smallpox, din’ they? SAcademy: I’d vote for a different time line.

BPRAL22169: I forgot to ask when I came in — did everybody read Rainbow Mars?

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane could not lay hands on it yet’

AGplusone: About 60% but I cheated and jumped ahead …

DenvToday: I will have by Saturday

AGplusone: need that time chart in the end

BPRAL22169: I picked up my copy on a remainder table last year.

AGplusone: and so will I …

NuclearWasteUSN: The wife probably got mine the same place.

AGplusone: also bought three Burroughs and a new copy of Chronicles

BPRAL22169: It’s not all one story — about 60% is the novella, and the rest is essays etc.

NuclearWasteUSN: She picks up books and squirrels them away to give me at special moments.

NuclearWasteUSN: She lurks the group for ideas on new ones

AGplusone: Well, really they are short stories about the main character, prequels

BPRAL22169: I think Niven is about to come ou twith another ringworld novel.

AGplusone: earlier trips

DenvToday: No kidding? Something to look forward to.

BPRAL22169: I think there was a whole book of Svetz stories — all highly comical.

AGplusone: great!

BPRAL22169: Something about a Flying Horse?

NuclearWasteUSN: Before the Puppeteers messed the ring up?

AGplusone: The comedy is fun

AGplusone: Also loved the parody of NASA like Operation Luna

BPRAL22169: Svetz in Rainbow Mars was much more like Beowulf Schaefer.

BPRAL22169: or Louis Wu

AGplusone: can’t resist: who wu

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: Woo Wu

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Louis Wu is a lineal descendant of Beowulf Schaefer, and he’s the protagonist of the Ringworld novels.

AGplusone: chugchugchugchug ….

AGplusone: okay, I’ll have to start reading more Niven I guess SAcademy: Chug-a-lug?

AGplusone: wailwoad

BPRAL22169: No, I think that’s Jerry Pournelle… SAcademy: Haven’t played that since college.

AGplusone: what you paint yourself with when you’re sad

NuclearWasteUSN: Never felt like I needed to get that drunk after college

BPRAL22169: Almost everything Niven has written is worth reading. I don’t find his fantasies all that interesting, mostly.

BPRAL22169: But that’s personal taste.

BPRAL22169: His theory of mana as a natural resource has virtually taken over fantasy.

NuclearWasteUSN: What did you think of Rainbow Mars?

AGplusone: the humor is appearing … the surfer going by the twin towers in WLA will live with me forever

AGplusone: appealling

BPRAL22169: A page turner.

NuclearWasteUSN: WLA?

BPRAL22169: I was very glad to see he had gotten back his storytelling sense.

BPRAL22169: The Endless Road just went on and on with yardgoods and too little story.

AGplusone: West Los Angeles, Century City has those two big towers

NuclearWasteUSN: I thought so after I finally got into it, but at furst was not impressed

AGplusone: when the tidal wave sweeps the surfer on by

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh, from Lucifer’s Hammer

AGplusone: yes

NuclearWasteUSN: Being from the Valley I always remember more of the San Joaquin scenes

AGplusone: Luc’s Hammer was the last one of his I read … have to go back and pick up some more

BPRAL22169: I think that was a joint production.

NuclearWasteUSN: Well we seem to be fatally off topic at this point, isn’t this when we usually officially end the discussion?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes Niven and Pournelle

BPRAL22169: The Mote in God’s Eye and Gripping Hand are worth reading.

NuclearWasteUSN: Just like Footfall.

AGplusone: read Mote, quickly once

DenvToday: Anybody ever read King David’s Spaceship? I’ve just started it.

BPRAL22169: Did they do Legacy of Heorot and Beowulf’s Chidlren?

BPRAL22169: Or was that Anderson?

AGplusone: Long time ago, David … loved the humor in it as well …

AGplusone: Hogan? SAcademy: Did any of you know that R. critiqued Mote and they went back and rewrote it?

DenvToday: Pournelle

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, Ginny, Niven and Pournelle mention somewhere in their nonfiction

BPRAL22169: I discovered that R’s original letter to Niven and Pournelle about Mote has quietly been circulating on the Niven underground.

AGplusone: I think that critique is going to be very important some day … from what I’ve heard about it …

NuclearWasteUSN: I think I saw it is Requiem.

AGplusone: RAH on writing … SAcademy: It had already been sold when they did that.

AGplusone: he seemingly did it so effortlessly SAcademy: Some day, David.

BPRAL22169: 70+ is an effort, no matter what. SAcademy: Don’t believe that it was effortless. One drop of blood for each line.

AGplusone: yes

NuclearWasteUSN: I wonder what wonders would have rsulted if Robert had taken on more editorial duties?

BPRAL22169: No wonder he had to conduct a blood drive…

AGplusone: but look at the flair in the end result …

DenvToday: lol Bill

AGplusone: a character in every juvenile I could identify with when I was a juvenile

BPRAL22169: I think his most important job was editing Heinlein. Nobody else could do that.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have to agree

AGplusone: even Podkayne, Holly, and Puddin’ … didn’t matter how old, what sex, it was their mind, thinking and learning

NuclearWasteUSN: Looking at the Uncut and the cut Stranger it becomes very obvious

DavidWrightSr: Right on Dave!

AGplusone: and applying it

AGplusone: How many of us felt like Libby in “Misfit”?

AGplusone: “Pinkie”

NuclearWasteUSN: Well folks, I hate to leave, but I am in pain and need to go lie down SAcademy: Everyone, I think.

AGplusone: do, quickly, Jim SAcademy: Nite, Jim

BPRAL22169: Medical problem?

NuclearWasteUSN: Just my back

NuclearWasteUSN: Nothing new

DenvToday: Take care Nuc

DavidWrightSr: Night Jim.

BPRAL22169: Treat it like the urge to exercise — lie down until the fit passes. SAcademy: Me. too. Have to be up early tomorrow.

NuclearWasteUSN: Percocet and methocarbomol seem to help SAcademy: Nite, all.

BPRAL22169: Good night, Ginny. Schlaf’ gut. SAcademy: Thanks.

DenvToday: Good night SAcademy has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Night all

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

AGplusone: well, I suggest maybe some posts between now and Saturday?

AGplusone: We had a very wide-ranging chat on the subject

DavidWrightSr: I have been meaning to posts the physical descriptions of Weinbaum’s martians, but have been tied up.

DavidWrightSr: Jim asked for them

AGplusone: would help … anyone have a clue about Lewis’s eldils ?

DenvToday: Well, I’m off to bed. Good night all.

DavidWrightSr: See ya

AGplusone: see ya Ran

DenvToday: Take care

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: I’m going to eat now! Good night from New York, David

BPRAL22169: I always thought the Eldila were guardian angels or tutelary spirits — like Gaia.

DavidWrightSr: Night Chet

AGplusone: I’ve never read Lewis

BPRAL22169: That trilogy is well worth it.

AGplusone: Need a good example of his Martians.

DavidWrightSr: I read one when I was about 14 or so. Never re-read it.

AGplusone: Starts with what?

DavidWrightSr: Out of the Silent Planet?

BPRAL22169: They are clustered in the first book, Out of the Silent Planet (earth is the silent planet — our Eldil went silent).

BPRAL22169: When mankind Fell.

AGplusone: Okay … I’ll see if I can find the first … and get a clue

BPRAL22169: It

BPRAL22169: s been quite a while, but I vaguely recall them being described as seal-like.

DavidWrightSr: Listened to all of his ‘Screwtape letters’ in college. In mandatory chapel

AGplusone: I missed that class

BPRAL22169: That’s a great book. Also The Great Divorce and Till We Have Faces.

AGplusone: got full log, Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Got it

BPRAL22169: If you get a chance, when Shadowlands comes to A&E, watch either version; they both have much to recommend them — based on Lewis’ Surprised by Joy.

AGplusone: nite gents

AGplusone: okay

BPRAL22169: Good night, both davids.

DavidWrightSr: Night

BPRAL22169: Have fun.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 11:02 P.M.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 10-11-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT No Topic – Planning Session

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 10-11-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

No Topic – Planning Session

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Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Now it’s working

ddavitt: great

ddavitt: so; good news on Connie

DavidWrightSr: I haven’t heard back from her on getting set up. I expect I will sometime soon.

djindalian has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: A newcomer?

ddavitt: Sure; or she is doing it on her own

ddavitt: Hi there.

DavidWrightSr: Hi. djin

djindalian: Sorta its djinn/dave hi y’all

ddavitt: I meant Connie, not you djinn sorry:-)

DavidWrightSr: Welcome to the group. I don’t believe you have been here before have you?

DavidWrightSr: Of course, I’ve seen you a lot on afh

djindalian: no, its usually pretty inconvienient for me. Off work today though

ddavitt: Glad you could make it

djindalian: me too.

ddavitt: No chat scheduled though; we are going to try and get a schedule sorted out

ddavitt: If you have any thoughts on future topics that would be great

djindalian: whats the discussion tonite?

ddavitt: New ideas always welcome

djindalian: oops

ddavitt: None tonight

ddavitt: No problem

ddavitt: We may have a guest author soon; Conie Willis

DavidWrightSr: We kind of let things slip through the cracks what with everything going on.

ddavitt: Connie that is.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got to find some of her works, Any suggestions

djindalian: thats cool, I liked ‘to say nothing of the dog’

ddavitt: I enjoyed To say Nothing of the Dog

ddavitt: And one she did with Cynthia Felice, promised Land

DavidWrightSr: I’ll try to find them

djindalian: In fact, I read it cause I recognized the title, because Kip’s dad read ‘3 men in a boat’

ddavitt: Doomsday Book was good too…but I wasn’t so keeon on lincoln’s dreams; gripping but a flat ending somehow

maikoshT has entered the room.

ddavitt: Yes; she dedicates the book to Heinlein

ddavitt: I remember going after JKJ’s book after reading HSSWT when I was 11

ddavitt: I wanted to know about opening that can!

DavidWrightSr: I’ve downloaded it but haven’t had a chance to read it yet.

ddavitt: It’s very funny

djindalian: really funny

ddavitt: The soppy bits are funny too…not sure if that was intentional or not

djindalian: I always thought it was

ddavitt: I think they were, AG thinks they were serious

ddavitt: He was a Victorian writer; they did go in for hearts and flowers

ddavitt: But they are so overdrawn and usually something funny happens to interrupt the musings so i think they were a joke

ddavitt: Meeting them in TSNOTD was great

djindalian: That was funny, recognized them right away.

ddavitt: Have you read the sequel?

ddavitt: About the bike trip round Germany?

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

djindalian: no didn’t even know about it

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening all.

ddavitt: That is just as funny but has chilling bits when you realise WW1 was round the corner

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jim.

ddavitt: Hi there Jim, nice to see you

djindalian: hi

ddavitt: Three men On The Bummel

ddavitt: Probably can download it

djindalian: cool!

ddavitt: we have no topic Jim; just going to sort out a schedule if possible

ddavitt: How about your mars talk?

ddavitt: I saw you volunteer:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL

ddavitt: You would enjoy hosting it

NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t think we are ready with it for tonight.

ddavitt: Oh no, but we can work it in and set a date, right?

NuclearWasteUSN: Certainly

NuclearWasteUSN: And you can even volunteer me to host it.

ddavitt: Just discussing Connie Willis as she is going to be guesting soon

ddavitt: I wil do:-):-)

ddavitt: How about 25/27 oct?

ddavitt: Or is Connie down for that?

NuclearWasteUSN: Do we want to call for all the Martians the group can come up with, or should we limit it somehow?

ddavitt: Have to limit it to books people can read in the time

ddavitt: No point having too many…

ddavitt: Concentrate on H books and a couple of others maybe

ddavitt: I haven’t read rainbow mars

maikoshT: I suggested 25/27 for Connie, but haven’t had confirmation yet

ddavitt: couldn’t get into it but I will try again

NuclearWasteUSN: More fantasy than SF, but a fun read, just to see all the Martians again

ddavitt: well, you can be thinking about it Jim and doing a lead off post for afh

ddavitt: Can save it until the date is confirmed

ddavitt: usually that gets posted the Monday or so after the saturday chat

NuclearWasteUSN: No prob, will leave the dates open until we know for Connie.

ddavitt: Great!

ddavitt: There, that’s two sorted…

NuclearWasteUSN: Rainbow Mars has a very slow start. I put it down twice.

ddavitt: (This is easy)

ddavitt: I love their books usually..

ddavitt: especially the Dream park and Heorot ones

ddavitt: I want to go to Dream park one day!

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL I want to go to the Ring World

ddavitt: Now again, couldn’t get into those…

ddavitt: Oh well…

NuclearWasteUSN: Got a bit repetitive.

ddavitt: Dave, what was the position on Robert Crais again?

ddavitt: Is he available later on in the year?

NuclearWasteUSN: By the end I wanted the puppeteer to kill Louis.

maikoshT: I have never had any response from him. I don’t believe that the address I had for him was good

ddavitt: Don’t tell me! I may read them someday…I have one on my shelves I think

ddavitt: Did AG speak to him though at the book signing? memory going

maikoshT: I’m not sure. I know he spoke to Connie

ddavitt: And Felicia said she asked Lois Bujold to come

ddavitt: We could follow up on that maybe

ddavitt: djinn; anything you’d like to see discussed?

djindalian: nothing special

ddavitt: I know we had a poetry topic in the pipeline

ddavitt: Looking at the way H’s favourites influenced the books; Kipling, tennyson etc

ddavitt: That’s another one that needs some reading

ddavitt: Need an easy one or two as well

ddavitt: Ones people can discuss without too much effort involved; especially as they get busy with Christmas and such

ddavitt: We have had our Thanksgiving; halloween next

NuclearWasteUSN: An easy topic seems harder to come up with.

ddavitt: we never discussed the con either

ddavitt: but that moment has passed perhaps

ddavitt: I would have liked to hear about the panel discussing farmer in the Sky that AG was part of

NuclearWasteUSN: the con of which pro?

ddavitt: :-)world con

ddavitt: with that awful pun..millenium philcon

ddavitt: ,groan>

ddavitt: or giggle…depending

ddavitt: holidays in Heinlein…that’s easy..he didn’t seem to have any

ddavitt: I don’t recall Christmas on the Moon?

maikoshT: A lot happened to Kip over the Labor Day weekend :-)

ddavitt: True!

ddavitt: And he got to do it twice

ddavitt: I never knew what that was as a child in the Uk; we don’t have it

NuclearWasteUSN: ISTR a reference to Christmas on the moon, and there is the Diner in Cliff and the Calories.

ddavitt: have August bank Holiday on the 30th

ddavitt: But the characters don’t all sit down and sing caros sort of thing

ddavitt: carols

ddavitt: It has become irrelevant on Mars, venus…

NuclearWasteUSN: Or was not part of the story.

ddavitt: when there’s no December, how can there be a Dec 25?

NuclearWasteUSN: True.

ddavitt: may have to do with religion and not wanting the books to be connected to one

djindalian: wasn’t one of Mannie’s family a preacher?

ddavitt: But christmas is, to many, a secular event

ddavitt: with the Sabbath on a saturday

ddavitt: that was a bit of a dig I always felt

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, Greg I think.

maikoshT: Sabbath is Saturday :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Either that or a reference to the 7th Day Adventists

ddavitt: mannie didn’t have feelings about the faith; he just liked Greg and didn’t want to hirt his feelings

NuclearWasteUSN: Or the Jewish faith

maikoshT: We Orthodox distinguish between Sabbath and Sunday

ddavitt: Is it? I’m all confused now

ddavitt: Sorry.

maikoshT: No Problemo

ddavitt: Anyhow, the reference to them calculating it seemed to be a bit of a joke

NuclearWasteUSN: IIRC Sundown friday to sundown Saturday.

maikoshT: True

ddavitt: I’m going to go check it; brb

NuclearWasteUSN: Alex mentioned Christmas, but in just as backhanded a way. Not much celebration.

ddavitt: ah!

NuclearWasteUSN: Si?

ddavitt: sundown Tuesday to wednesady

ddavitt: spelling!

ddavitt: in the local time of the garden of eden

NuclearWasteUSN: OK, that works.

ddavitt: was THE sabbath

ddavitt: for Greg

ddavitt: most Loonies, it was Sunday

NuclearWasteUSN: Alex also mentioned the millenial calculations, and the calculations for the age of the Earth, and how no two groups could agree, so he used brackets.

ddavitt: I knew it was something different

ddavitt: Yes; all that discussion of dates in job was interesting.Wonder how much research H did>

ddavitt: And if he found it amusing..

NuclearWasteUSN: Probably background from his youth.

ddavitt: Yes..that comes through a lot in that book

ddavitt: I remember the revival tents coming to my town

NuclearWasteUSN: I remember discussion of the same people and dating at Kings Christian School in Lemoore growing up.

ddavitt: Figures are slippery

NuclearWasteUSN: And figurers are sliperier

ddavitt: Too true!

ddavitt: Alex dismissing fossil evidence made me smile wryly

ddavitt: Maybe on his world, it was only young

ddavitt: not millions of years old

NuclearWasteUSN: I have seen the same thing in politics, science, etc.

ddavitt: what, ignore facts that don’t fit your pet theory?

NuclearWasteUSN: Perhaps Mr. Hammes contention that all systems of belief are religions has something to it.

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, exactly that.

ddavitt: I could accept that to a certain extent

NuclearWasteUSN: Or discount them with another contrived theory.

ddavitt: You can make a god out of anything

ddavitt: if you try hard enough

NuclearWasteUSN: Except me.

NuclearWasteUSN: If nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve.

ddavitt: You don’t want to be worshipped and adored, Jim/:-)

djindalian: Church of Nuke

ddavitt: Has a ring to it

NuclearWasteUSN: Nope, I like arguing too much.

NuclearWasteUSN: Been having way too much fun of late.

ddavitt: I would like to be world dictator and sort things out but not a goddess

NuclearWasteUSN: I am waiting for LV to notice the Bugs Bunny gambit.

ddavitt: And I would only be it until things were tidy

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL

NuclearWasteUSN: Famous last words

ddavitt: I haven’t been following it much so that means nothing but it sounds fun

ddavitt: You don’t trust me? ,quiver of lip>

ddavitt: It wouldn’t take long to sort out.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have taken his usual position and he is arguing mine. He is gradually coming around to my way of thinking just by being denied his usual tools

ddavitt: I’ve coped with birthday parties for 6 year olds; i can handle anything

djindalian: hmmm…. there are some heads of state that could use a good spanking…

NuclearWasteUSN: Ever gone cutting wood with three year olds?

ddavitt: LV is Ok; he has been around long enough to be part of the bar furniture

NuclearWasteUSN: I like LV, just disagree with his politics.

djindalian: LV seems to have mellowed quite a bit too.

ddavitt: I am in charge at the school bus stop most days and am getting a reputation for being firm but fair…

NuclearWasteUSN: Then again, I disagree with most everyone’s politics.

ddavitt: And I’m bigger than them of course..

ddavitt: I don’t have any as such…just certain ways I think about things

ddavitt: I can’t label myself as anything in particualr

NuclearWasteUSN: I live near the high school. Had the kids convinced I ate people so they did not hang out in the alley, but now some of the kids I know are in high school. *sigh* I have to clean up after them every day now.

maikoshT: BTW, if there is anything that you wish to have deleted from the log, please let me know.

ddavitt: I just wish people would be more like me and my friends

ddavitt: Nice that is :-)

ddavitt: i pity the man whose garden is by the stop

ddavitt: the little brats keep running all over it,, onto the road, throwing balls, stones as cars go by

ddavitt: I hold Eleanor right by me and glare

ddavitt: But now I tell ’em off

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh goodness I am in heaven.

ddavitt: Why?

NuclearWasteUSN: My wife got me Applets and Cotlets.

NuclearWasteUSN: A candy from my youth.

ddavitt: what on earth are they?

NuclearWasteUSN: Have not had them in many years

ddavitt: ah..describe, I love candy

NuclearWasteUSN: Fruit with nuts and sugar.

ddavitt: wine gums and fizzy sweets mostly

ddavitt: in a bar?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes

ddavitt: I haven’t seen them before

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, little bites, about like a bite sized Snickers.

NuclearWasteUSN: There are from Washington State.

ddavitt: I know what you mean..we called snickers, marathon in the UK

ddavitt: but now the name has changed

NuclearWasteUSN: Never seen them outside of Washington, my wife has heard me talk about them and found them online

ddavitt: same with opal fruits becoming starburst

ddavitt: and oil of ulay, oil of olay

NuclearWasteUSN: http://www.libertyorchards.com

ddavitt: you can find anything online. Anone see Buffy last week?

ddavitt: They found the urn of osiris on ebay

NuclearWasteUSN: Try finding Tillamook cheddar for a reasonable price. *shudder*

NuclearWasteUSN: rofl

ddavitt: books though….I have found books I’ve lusted after for years.

ddavitt: Still way out of my price range but at least I know they’re there

NuclearWasteUSN: This is true, and books I lost long ago, along with title and author.

ddavitt: who makes Tillamook?

NuclearWasteUSN: Made in Washington/Oregon

ddavitt: ask OJ

ddavitt: he might be able to get it for you

NuclearWasteUSN: Tillamook creameries.

ddavitt: i miss the range of cheeses we had in the UK

NuclearWasteUSN: Best cheese in the world. Wisconsin is a poor second rate.

ddavitt: Hmm..I dunno about that

ddavitt: but I like very mild cheeses.

NuclearWasteUSN: You might like this area. Or the Tillamook Creamerie, wonderful tours.

ddavitt: David is the other way; loves Stilton, blue

ddavitt: smellier the better

NuclearWasteUSN: Extra sharp white cheddar

djindalian: stilton is good!!

ddavitt: I like double Gloucester sorts

ddavitt: It’s mouldy!!

NuclearWasteUSN: Sitting on the table warm so it is almost as spreadable as butter

ddavitt: smells like sweaty socks

NuclearWasteUSN: Tastes like ambrosia.

NuclearWasteUSN: Mellow cheeses have always seemed a waste of time to me.

ddavitt: chacun a son gout

NuclearWasteUSN: Like decaffeinated coffee, alcohol free beer/wine, bridal suite without a bed.

ddavitt: No; just a gentle, subtle taste

NuclearWasteUSN: You sound like my wife.

ddavitt: on granary bread with a good cider and lots of Branston pickle

ddavitt: a lady of taste obviously!

NuclearWasteUSN: She married me :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Good bread and pickles, now that I agree with.

ddavitt: ever had branston pickles?

ddavitt: They do have them in canada but they’re British

NuclearWasteUSN: No, we usually put up our own.

NuclearWasteUSN: (Only way to get a decent hot pickle.)

ddavitt: hot…you are like mu husband

NuclearWasteUSN: I will look for them next time I cross the border.

ddavitt: he loves spicy food, I hate it

ddavitt: Bp aren’t spicy

ddavitt: just tangy

NuclearWasteUSN: When I make chili I have to make a pot for her and one for me.

ddavitt: We are off topic!

ddavitt: This always happens…

ddavitt: food then alcohol take over!

ddavitt: :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Extremely, but then, I have not been volunteered to do the easy chat.

djindalian: causing hunger too

ddavitt: I will have to vanish in a minute

ddavitt: Baby has been a monster recently and I’m low on sleep

NuclearWasteUSN: I know. BRB going to cut some ham and cheddar and slap it on 7 grain bread

ddavitt: She was good last night so I’ve got fingers crossed

ddavitt: OK

ddavitt: So, looks like we can fit Connie in whenver she likes, Jim will do mars and…we need a quick topic to fill in a gap

maikoshT: So we have either Connie or the Martian thing next time depending on whether or no Connie gets back and lets me know that she is set up . Right?

ddavitt: ideas anyone?

ddavitt: Sounds about right

ddavitt: that’s the 25 ans 27 Oct

maikoshT: Right

ddavitt: and 8 and 10 of Novemeber

ddavitt: any books we haven’t done for a while?

ddavitt: they make easy topics

ddavitt: because most people know them well enough already

ddavitt: How about looking at the stories where resistance groups fight back and analysing the effectiveness of their strategies?

ddavitt: free men and Sixth Column for instance

djindalian: That might be fun.

ddavitt: Topical but sort of inspiring

ddavitt: Do we have a host here then?

maikoshT: Would that include the Venerian colonists in Between Planets or something more unstructured?

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: I was thinking more of when the US is invaded

DenvToday: Greetings all

ddavitt: but we could bring in BP, sure

ddavitt: Hi Denv

NuclearWasteUSN: Not sure.

DenvToday: Hello :-)

ddavitt: Just discussing topics for upcoming chats

ddavitt: About what Jim?

DenvToday: I can’t stay long. I have to be up early.

NuclearWasteUSN: Needed to scroll forward. n/m

ddavitt: we are about done I think

ddavitt: there wasn’t a topic tongiht so we ended up on food:-)

DenvToday: Always my favorite topic.

NuclearWasteUSN: How about some of the short stories as topics?

DenvToday: There’s a topic for discussion–RAH and food

ddavitt: Certainly is.

ddavitt: Comes into lots of the books

DenvToday: Indeed. He always makes me hungry.

NuclearWasteUSN: I would have to have my desk covered in snacks and apple juice.

ddavitt: Which ones Jim?

ddavitt: We did the FH ones fairly recently

NuclearWasteUSN: Any of them that we fancy, just throwing out an idea, not volunteering again yet.

ddavitt: Could look at the weirder ones in menace

ddavitt: or 6 X H

ddavitt: Goldfish Bowl, water is For washing

ddavitt: Thaose ones; the overlooked ones

ddavitt: You volunteered once; that’s enough:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Goldfish bowl is one of my favorites.

NuclearWasteUSN: Egads, I heard that in the Navy.

NuclearWasteUSN: Usually just before a nasty assignment.

ddavitt: Ok, I propse a few of those neglected stories as a filler topic for emergencies

ddavitt: With the one about resistance fighters somehwere too

ddavitt: Jim, dave will let you know which date is the Mars chat

ddavitt: And we’re all done!

DenvToday: See you all on Saturday.

NuclearWasteUSN: OK, I will work on the post and flesh out the topic

DenvToday: I do have my dates correct, don’t I? It’s this Saturday?

maikoshT: Sounds good.

NuclearWasteUSN: Bye Denver :-)

ddavitt: Looking forward to that

ddavitt: Well, no, not really Denv

DenvToday: Oh.

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: I don’t think there’s anything planned for this saturday

DenvToday: No wonder I’m confused.

DenvToday: A week from Saturday?

ddavitt: Tonight is a blank chat

ddavitt: two weeks:-)

ddavitt: on the 25th and 27th

DenvToday: I haven’t been getting the mailings.

ddavitt: it will be a guest author; Connie Willis or a chat on mars

maikoshT: And probably no need to meet this Saturday since we don’t have a topic.

ddavitt: No, and I will be in Algonquin park with the bears

ddavitt: so I definitelt won’t be there

DenvToday: I’ll see you on the 25th.

DenvToday: Bye ’til then!

ddavitt: Great

ddavitt: Night all

maikoshT: See you all then

NuclearWasteUSN: We don’t need to go to the park for that, we have a pair just outside of town here

DenvToday: Night

DenvToday has left the room.

djindalian: night

ddavitt: I don’t want to meet them..bears are scary

NuclearWasteUSN: Good night all. :-)

djindalian has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN:

ddavitt: See you all , thanks for the input

ddavitt: me too

maikoshT: Log officially closed at 10:20 P.M. EDT

ddavitt has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 09-27-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Heinlein and Racism

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 09-27-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Heinlein and Racism

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Heinlein Readers’ Group

AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001

“Heinlein and Racism”

Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday

Combating bigotry in all its forms was one of Heinlein’s most persistent personal agendas in his role as a public moralist. (And let us note we will be having this chat on Yom Kippur). With respect to racism, his usual approach as to include “minority” characters as major figures in his stories, without special comment about the fact, not revealing until the end that, for example, Johnny Rico (Starship Troopers) was of Phillipine extraction or implying ambiguously that Rod Walker (Tunnel in the Sky) or Colin Ames (The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) was Negro. His first juvenile for Scribner’s, Rocket Ship Galileo, featured three friends, one of them a Jewish boy, in an era (1947) when Jews were non-persons in this country, routinely excluded from public life. Thus we are encouraged by subtext and implication to see non-white and non-male characters as a functional part of the human drama.

In two instances, however, racism and bigotry were made a part of the thematic material of his books.

Farnham’s Freehold, written early in 1963, immediately after the Cuban Missile Crisis, through not published until late in 1964, is based on two themes — first, the Cold War dilemma of Mutual Assured Destruction: no matter who might “win” a nuclear exchange, the liberal values of Western civilization were gone for good — and what they might be replaced by didn’t bear thinking about. Hugh Farnham is a “less than” character unusual in Heinlein because he is a participant, in the middle of the Cold War betrayal of Western liberalism, bartering American ideals for his slice of commercial success. Farnham is also a participant in the second thematic examination: he wishes only well for The Negro as personified in his servant, Joseph (note that Joseph is not provided with a family name) but Farnham’s vision is warped by the pervasive racism in which he lives. He does not understand what he is talking about, as Joseph tells him directly. Grace and Duke exhibit a conventional pukka-sahib racism, and even Karen’s attitude is tainted by Black-Mammyism. Everyone in Hugh’s family circle is damaged by racism, Joseph included: when offered the opportunity to turn the tables on the Farnhams — take the “up” side of the power relationship — he unhesitatingly does so, though it means endorsing slavery as an institution. He has no personal moral commitment to liberal values.

The message of Farnham’s Freehold is that racism damages everyone it touches, on either side of the power dichotomy.

Both themes are framed for Heinlein within the larger thematic context of individualism — racism is an offense to the individual by considering it only as a member of a group and not as an individual with its own merits, and the Cold War is the political reflection of the same moral error: a contest of which social organization shall win: the liberal society of free individuals, or the Marxist and illiberal nation-state, mass society. This context is ignored by the pc types who characterize Farnham’s Freehold, like its ultimate source, Huckleberry Finn, as a racist statement. Jim in Huckleberry Finn is the only morally straight character, because Twain is condemning specific racist/hypocritical attitudes that portray the Black as subhuman; Joseph in Farnham’s Freehold cannot rest in this niche because Heinlein’s thematic position acknowledges an unspeakable truth we have permitted only Spike Lee to articulate.

Both books are condemned because they commit the ultimate sin against “nice,” against the shining, happy people, by making realistic use of the “N” word in one case, and by associating cannibalism with the dark-skinned inheritors of the earth (George Slusser even goes so far as to identify them as Black Muslims, though on what evidence is not apparent) — and yet a straightforward reading of both texts reveals them both as strong anti-racist statements. Heinlein again approached the same materials from the same direction in Friday (1982), but his message has somewhat evolved. The eponymous heroine is an Artificial Person — smarter, faster, stronger than you or I, yet damaged in her core by the bigotry she has internalized. He explores the mechanisms of damage by posing various incidents by which the internalized message of bigotry is enforced upon the self — Friday cannot resent rape; she is not a person. She cannot have a real family; nobody can love an artificial person. She sees herself as wearing the brand of her shame publicly like a scarlet letter, though she cannot, even with her superior senses, discern the scarlet letter of a fellow who has internalized and self-enforces the same brand of bigotry against himself.

Friday is damaged by racism — but it is not the damage Heinlein wishes to explore this time. The bigotry against the Artificial Person is a type of all bigotry — racism, anti-semitism, anti-feminism, homophobia, and the psychological damage is carried by self-hatred internalized. About this, there is something that can be done — and it is something that an individual has individual power over and control of. Friday has begun the process of self-healing (though the process is by no means complete by the time we leave her) because she has given up enforcing an internalized self-hatred. In the early part of the book, she enforces the nobody-could-love-me-because-I-am-an-Artificial-Person attitude she accepts without questioning or examination, and despite all evidence to the contrary. Gradually she comes to realize that the evidence is contrary to the attitude and moves her psychological commitment over to the evidence — a process that forces her to abandon the internalized rule of bigotry against the Artificial Person.

The Artificial Person is an oxymorony, for one can be a person only by being genuine, and the AP prejudice is symbolic of public hypocrisy. Empowerment exists, Heinlein says, in the commitment to truth. This is the same message we found in Stranger in a Strange Land, and carried out by the same trope — the examination of private truth versus public hypocrisy.

Heinlein took a strong anti-racist stance throughout his long career. Farnham’s Freehold and Friday are two of the strongest statements he ever made about racism; both are made in the context of Heinlein’s ongoing exploration of what it means to be an individual within a community. A morally self-responsible human being, he holds, cannot be a racist.

Bill
Good choices Bill but can I make a plea to also include The Star Beast in the discussion? This juvenile has not only a very strong black character in the shape of Mr Kiku (one might almost call him the major character in that he hold the power of life and death over Lummox and that is perhaps the ultimate power) but his sidekick is called Sergei Greenberg. I may be wrong but I always thought of this as a Russian/Jewish name and considering the time of writing (1954) this is another point to consider. Added to that is the racism between humans ( McClure seems to be covertly racist in his attitude towards Kiku) and between humans and aliens ( Kiku and Ftaemal being a shining example of this being overcome as friendship does what drugs and hypnotism can’t). In fact, the blurb on my copy, written by the Denver Post says,

“Heinlein never preaches directly and he never writes down…His underlying theme, I
think, is that not only are all men children of God and therefore brothers, but all higher
life-forms that men may encounter, some day, in the outer reaches of the galaxy…”

There is also Heinlein’s depressingly likely pressure group, lampooned mercilessly at the trial scene; The Keep Earth Human League, represented by T. Omar Esklund, Doctor of Philosophy. His speech could be used quite happily with only minor alterations, by any group of bigots as they orated;

“As is well known, ever since the inception of the ungodly practise of space travel, our
native Earth, given to us by Divine law, has been increasingly overrun by
creatures…’beasts’ rather let us say…of dubious origin. The pestilent consequences of
this unholy traffic are seen on every..”

Here he was mercifully cut short by the judge.

Going back to MacClure, consider this little chat he has with Kiku as he tries to persuade him to appear on TV with Pidgie-Widgie,

“The Secretary frowned.” I hate to insist, if it really makes you nervous. But Mrs
Murgatroyd asked for you especially. You see…” MacClure looked mildly embarrassed.
“…Pidgie-Widgie preaches racial tolerance and so forth. Brothers under the skin…the
sort of thing we all want to encourage. So?”

later, Kiku tells him a story about an African tribe, three centuries earlier, who were wiped out by machine guns used by Europeans demanding taxes. How does MacClure refer to these men who had guns of their own and used clever strategy to trap their opponents in a box valley?

“An ignorant tribe of savages.” Hmm….

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article, BPRAL22169 writes…

>Heinlein Readers’ Group
>AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001
>”Heinlein and Racism”
>
>Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday

What’s left to discuss, Bill? 😉


Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

>What’s left to discuss, Bill? 😉

*Sigh*

Bill
BPRAL22169 wrote: Farnham’s vision is warped by the pervasive racism in

>which he lives. He does not understand what he is talking about, as Joseph
>tells him directly. Grace and Duke exhibit a conventional pukka-sahib racism,
>and even Karen’s attitude is tainted by Black-Mammyism. Everyone in Hugh’s
>family circle is damaged by racism, Joseph included:
>snip
>Bill

I agree with your assessments of the Farnham household but I wonder how much they are formed by the current climate. IOW, how would that household have appeared to an average contemporary reader?

I also wonder how Barbara stacks up? Not too badly from my recollections of it. She seems about as free from racism as one can be and still be human.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>IOW, how would that household have appeared to an average
>contemporary reader?

I think the average contemporary reader wouldn’t have noticed anything — it was simply naturalistic characterization, but it sneaks up on you, and I think Heinlein intended that deliberately, as he exposes the different strains of racism, from Grace’s out-and-out “Niggerism” and Duke’s conventionally disguised Niggerism to the more subtle racism contained within Hugh Farnham’s country club liberalism.

It strikes me that Duke and Grace define one end of a spectrum, and Hugh and Barbara define another end of the same spectrum. I don’t think Barbara was “free” of racism, precisely; she strikes me as just a little too sweet to be perfectly convincing — I’m thinking she starts from Black-Mammyism but is working to overcome it. So I class her and Hugh Farnham both as “men of good will” who don’t really have a clue.

Now, on that spectrum, where would you put Joseph? I have to say he is closer to Duke and Grace than to Hugh or Barbara — an out-and-out racist.

Bill
On 2001.09.21 19:20:16, the amazing 7LT;bpral22169@aol.com>declared:

 

>…. His first juvenile for Scribner’s, Rocket Ship
>Galileo, featured three friends, one of them a Jewish boy, in an era (1947)
>when Jews were non-persons in this country, routinely excluded from public
>life.

This sounds way off – there were lots of prominent Jews, weren’t there? Though Dorothy Parker did say that there were two things she would never understand, the theory of the zipper and the exact function of Bernard Baruch :-)

 


Nollaig MacKenzie
http://www.amhuinnsuidhe.cx/rahfan/

>there were lots of prominent
>Jews, weren’t there

Yes, but — this is the same period when Groucho Marx tried to get into the LA Country Club on Wilshire in Beverly Hills and couldn’t so he said he wouldn’t belong to any club that had standards so low it would have him as a member, anyway. The “prominent Jews” who ran LA (the entertainment industry) actually had to set up their own country club on Pico across from the Fox lot.

There were prominent Jews, true, but they were still marginalized.

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010922225740.10622.00000290@mb-cp.aol.com…

>>there were lots of prominent
>>Jews, weren’t there
>
>Yes, but — this is the same period when Groucho Marx tried to get into the LA
>Country Club on Wilshire in Beverly Hills and couldn’t so he said he wouldn’t
>belong to any club that had standards so low it would have him as a member,
>anyway. The “prominent Jews” who ran LA (the entertainment industry) actually
>had to set up their own country club on Pico across from the Fox lot.
>

I was in the sixth grade when I first learned that Jews faced that sort of thing. I didn’t believe it at first because it seemed so ridiculous. It wasn’t long after that when we studied the Holocaust.

I was in a freshman history class when a classmate innocently asked “Who was Jim Crow.” This was in 1982, I believe. There is some progress, but not enough.

[William Dennis]
Bill Dennis, commenting on prior posts:

>”BPRAL22169″ wrote [replying to Nollaig]:
>>>there were lots of prominent
>>>Jews, weren’t there
>>
>>Yes, but — this is the same period when Groucho Marx tried to get into the LA
>>Country Club on Wilshire in Beverly Hills and couldn’t so he said he wouldn’t
>>belong to any club that had standards so low it would have him as a member,
>>anyway. The “prominent Jews” who ran LA (the entertainment industry) actually
>>had to set up their own country club on Pico across from the Fox lot.
>>
>
>I was in the sixth grade when I first learned that Jews faced that sort of
>thing. I didn’t believe it at first because it seemed so ridiculous. It
>wasn’t long after that when we studied the Holocaust.
>I was in a freshman history class when a classmate innocently asked “Who was
>Jim Crow.” This was in 1982, I believe. There is some progress, but not >enough.

In 1954, early in the summer before I started seventh grade, a librarian handed me a copy of Galileo to take home and read, telling me to come back the next day and see her if I liked it. I was too young to check the book out myself, as my card was a ‘children’s card.’ She also told me to discuss the book with my parents and report what they had to say to her.

After I read it that day, I talked to my mom and dad at dinner. My dad asked to look over the book. He read it for about a half-hour, commented to my mother that it was the first boys’ book he’d ever read or heard of with a Jewish boy character or one that mentioned ‘conditions’ in Germany during the late world war, returned it to me and told me it was fine with him if I continued to read such books. In fact, I hadn’t noticed the Abrams boy in particular until he mentioned it; but then I was eleven, and not then fully aware exactly how many blood relatives of my father went into the camps and never emerged thereafter during that war.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

“Lou Adornato”wrote:

BPRAL22169wrote in message

news:20010921152016.12398.00000073@mb-mn.aol.com…

>Heinlein Readers’ Group
>AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001
>”Heinlein and Racism”
>
>Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday
>

Bill,

Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain just how wrong they were.

Lou Adornato wrote:

>Bill,
>
>Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals
>dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be
>further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those
>books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain
>just how wrong they were.

This brings up what I think is an important point; the need to look squarely at those accusations and try to answer them and understand what might have prompted them. I have always, possibly, maybe probably, erroneously, thought that Heinlein was speaking through his character Archie, in Magic Inc. If you recall, a character in that is, “as black as draftsmans ink!” Like Mr Kiku, Dr Worthington is an African who has been educated at Oxbridge. He is also a witch doctor. Archie is shocked to discover that he is a Negro but;

“I tried not to show surprise. I hope I did not, for I have an utter horror of
showing that kind of rudeness.”

Later he says,

‘We white men in this country are inclined to underestimate the black man – I
know I do – because we see him out of his cultural matrix. Those we know have
had their own culture wrenched from them some generations back and a servile
pseudo culture imposed on them by force. We forget that the black man has a
culture of his own, older than ours and more solidly grounded, based on
character and the power of the mind rather than the cheap, ephemeral tricks of
mechanical gadgets. But it is a stern, fierce culture with no sentimental
concern for the weak and the unfit, and it never quite dies out.
I stood up in involuntary respect when Dr Worthington entered the room.”

That doesn’t sound racist to me…yet consider this comment by Slusser in his critique of Heinlein, ‘Stranger In His Own Land”. He has been discussing Time For The Stars and Double Star;

“There are more egregious stereotypes. The kind and saintly Uncle Alfred of
‘Time For The Stars’ has as counterpart here another gentle darkie, the
faithful errand boy Jimmie Washington. Women in both novels are either
helpless, whining creatures, or prudes – discardables. At their best, women
and Blacks are fit to be servants and adulators of the elect, no more.”

This is the kind of assertion that needs to be pulled to pieces and examined in the light of day, not shuffled aside in embarrassment in case it contains a shred of truth.

I believe that Slusser has made an error here because he is assuming that the depiction of some women as whiners or prudes is wrong. It isn’t. Some women are like that. Including them in a book that has other strong, admirable female characters ( Vicky and Celeste for instance) is allowable by any standards. By the same token, a black character who is in an administrative position ( as Jimmie Washington is) is not the same as a black character in a servile/slavelike position.

Go through Double Star and see how Washington is described; loyal, tight lipped, utterly trustworthy. He isn’t just a civil servant either; he is a member of the great parliament, representing the Lapps. It is a safe district…but so is Penny’s. They are not slavish characteristics.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Lou Adornato”wrote in message news:fBNr7.26091$Q6.1366255@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net…

>
>BPRAL22169 wrote in message
>news:20010921152016.12398.00000073@mb-mn.aol.com…
>>Heinlein Readers’ Group
>>AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001
>>”Heinlein and Racism”
>>
>>Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday
>>
>
>Bill,
>
>Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals
>dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be
>further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those
>books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain
>just how wrong they were.

In all fairness, I had to reread F.F. cause the first time left me wondering.

[William B. Dennis 2nd]

>In all fairness, I had to reread F.F. cause the first time left me
>wondering.
>

This may be a good opportunity to ask what about FF seemed ambiguous.

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010924231919.16706.00001038@mb-cg.aol.com…

>>In all fairness, I had to reread F.F. cause the first time left me
>>wondering.
>>
>
>This may be a good opportunity to ask what about FF seemed ambiguous.
>Bill

It was not ambiguous.

The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be racist. It had a white middle-class suburbanite who spoke fondly of his obedient black servant, up until the servant makes decisions on his own. It featured a society controlled by black cannibals, for God’s sake. Of course, from a politically correct perspective, portraying these things was the same thing as endorsing them.

I didn’t enjoy it and only after I reread if about a year ago (after I became more libertarian) did I begin to see the subtle way Heinlein was making commentary about race relations.


— William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com ,
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com and
http://mycoolwebpages.tripod.com

>It was not ambiguous.
>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>racist.

Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).

Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the time were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims. I think this was a mistake in approaching the book, on several levels. For one thing, it makes the commentary more “topical” than it seems to me Heinlein intended, at least on this point. I think the topical reference is profitably read to the Cuban Missile Crisis that happened just a couple of months before he began writing the book. I think in terms of its commentary on racism and bigotry, it is more correct to classify FF as a “philosophical” romance rather than a “topical” or “didactic” novel.

Bill
In article,

BPRAL22169wrote:

>>It was not ambiguous.
>>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>>racist.
>
>Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but
>there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).
>
>Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the time
>were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims.

Well, I think we can agree that the dominant level of society certainly thought of itself as black. Wasn’t there a section about Islam in FF? ISTR Hugh thinking the text he was reading was different from the version he read in the 20th Century.

The following comment is being relayed from Tim Kyger, who does not have access to this newsgroup:

And to add my $0.02 worth, Bill, WRT Slusser’s “Black Muslims” comment — /Farnham’s Freehold/ was written in ’63, published in ’64, and if I remember right, the Black Muslim’s don’t come to any sort of cultural prominence for about two more years — i.e., about ’65, ’66, around in there.

Heinlein surely was aware of the political and cultural landscape around him, but I truly doubt that such a marginal group was visible to him in 1963. And in 1963, the Black Muslims -were- marginal.

Slusser was reacting, of course; which was one of the things Heinlein wanted people to do when reading this book (IMHO of course). It’s -supposed- to make you uncomfortable. And, with any luck, one would then examine the source of the intellectual and/or emotional discomfort, and *think* about it…

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010925125235.26637.00001382@mb-mq.aol.com…

>The following comment is being relayed from Tim Kyger, who does not have access
>to this newsgroup:
>
>And to add my $0.02 worth, Bill, WRT Slusser’s “Black Muslims” comment —
>/Farnham’s Freehold/ was written in ’63, published in ’64, and if I remember
>right, the Black Muslim’s don’t come to any sort of cultural prominence for
>about two more years — i.e., about ’65, ’66, around in there.
>
>Heinlein surely was aware of the political and cultural landscape around him,
>but I truly doubt that such a marginal group was visible to him in 1963. And
>in 1963, the Black Muslims -were- marginal.
>
>Slusser was reacting, of course; which was one of the things Heinlein wanted
>people to do when reading this book (IMHO of course). It’s -supposed- to make
>you uncomfortable. And, with any luck, one would then examine the source of
>the intellectual and/or emotional discomfort, and *think* about it…
>
>Bill

IIRC, There are a number of native Africans who are Muslim and I had always assumed that it had become the dominant religion by the time Hugh and party arrived. I do remember the part about the Koran and how it seemed different to Hugh.

I seem to recall that OJ Simpson played a native african Muslim in ‘Roots’.

David Wright
This is forwarded from Andy Thornton — the unfortunate who started this topic months ago…

There is a strong element of Nietzsche in Heinlein’s writings but none, perhaps, more strongly than in his two books about racism: ‘Farnham’s Freehold’ and ‘Friday’. Ironically Nietzsche was usually portrayed as the intellectual progenitor of National Socialism before the recent surge in academic interest because of his numb nuts sister’s manipulation of his notebooks and image during her unfortunately long life. This simple-minded interpretation of Nietzsche depending, as it does, on ripping sentences out of context, a misunderstanding of the textual form of Nietzsche’s writings, and finally an inability to either read German or – more simply and commonly – inability to _read_ and then _think_ about what one has just read, is finally starting to go; but it is only finally starting to go and when Heinlein wrote both ‘Farnham’s Freehold’ (FF) and ‘Friday’ (F) the academic myth of “Nietzsche as Nazi” was the predominate consensus.

It is crucially important to grasp this misinterpretation as it is the foundation of misinterpretations of FF and F.

FF is a book about racism and it is a tragedy. Note the last word. Tragedy is the literary form wherein everything goes to hell in a hand basket. Hugh Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing throughout the book. He is acted upon rather than acts. He does not escape the slavery of the future but is rather kicked-out of the society by an act of noblesse oblige.

First important point: You can be the Master in the Power relationship and yet operate under the Slave Morality.

So now it’s time to define Slave Morality.

Slave Morality is, according to Nietzsche, the exact inverse of the aristocratic morality found in Homer’s poetic works. Master morality does not work on a Good/Evil but a ThingsDone/Things- NotDone scale. Killing another member of the aristocracy, just because battle is so much fun, is a Thing Done. Taking women and boys “into your tent” for your own sexual satisfaction is a Thing Done; Slave Morality says you should Love Your Neighbor and maintain celibacy. Someone operating under the Master Morality would kill someone who insults them; under Slave Morality they would turn the other cheek. In Master Morality if you see a ‘wrongness’ you vow your sacred honor and fortune to correct it; in Slave Morality you bow your head meekly and accept God’s or the Gods’ will.

Nietzsche is NOT saying one is “better” in ANY objective sense. What he IS doing is DESCRIBING two extreme poles of mores.

What Heinlein adds to this mix is a very low key analysis of Power (whom can do what to whom) Relationships. Hugh Farnham is initially the Master in terms of Power Relation (the scenes in the bomb shelter) and later the Slave in terms of the Power Relationships is throughout the book always a Slave in terms of Morality. (The only character, btw, who operates from the Master Morality is Ponce.)

In this way we can begin to see that Hugh Farnham, while the protagonist, is not a hero: Romantic or Morally. Hugh is a racist but one not usually depicted in literature or public discourse. Hugh’s racism is the gentle, suffocating, Slave Morality version: Joseph is “The Negro” or “The Unfortunate” or “Our Oppressed Brother”. Joseph is not seen as an autonomous individual; he is not _valued_ as Joseph. Hugh’s racism doesn’t kill the body. It merely kills the soul! Heinlein would have been familiar with this version of racism from both his upbringing in Missouri, including Kansas City, and his experience in EPIC. In the former he would have encountered the “darkies are just like children, so we have to take care of them” while in EPIC it would have been the “drug addiction is a valid lifestyle choice for those in the inner cities” attitude. The first, in the U.S. of A., is usually – but not always – seen in Southerners while the second is usually – but not always – noted in Northerners.

For whatever reason Heinlein does not attempt to “resolve” most of the issues he raises in FF – and to my mind why FF is one of his weakest books – but is content to merely describe, or depict, them.

Andy Thornton

forwarded by

Bill

This is being relayed for Andy Thornton:

>Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims.

Slusser’s main problem is that he is never willing to grant the possiblity that Heinlein is a literary artist.

His second problem is that he will not give a statement running counter to his thesis on page 165 the same weight as a statement supporting his thesis on page 37.

His third problem is a really irritating in- ability to get basic facts straight.

Andy

Bill
This is being relayed for Andy Thornton:

>black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims

Slusser’s assertion about Black Muslim’s in FF have the same truth as his assertation of body painting in SIASL.

That is: None to Speak Of.

Andy

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010925115126.01454.00001288@mb-fo.aol.com…

>>It was not ambiguous.
>>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>>racist.
>
>Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but
>there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).
>
>Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the
time
>were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims. I
>think this was a mistake in approaching the book, on several levels. For one
>thing, it makes the commentary more “topical” than it seems to me Heinlein
>intended, at least on this point. I think the topical reference is profitably
>read to the Cuban Missile Crisis that happened just a couple of months before
>he began writing the book. I think in terms of its commentary on racism and
>bigotry, it is more correct to classify FF as a “philosophical” romance rather
>than a “topical” or “didactic” novel.
>Bill
>

At that time in my life, I was a liberal. I believed it was my duty as a liberal to expose all wrong-thinking for what it was. My mindset was: If a book *portrayed* behavior I found objectionable, it therefore must be “wrong.” It was a very literal, very immature way of thinking. The subtleties of the book escaped me. Of course, there was a part of me that enjoyed works of literature that made me think. That’s why I kept coming back to Heinlein, even though college professors kept insisting he was fascist.

It wasn’t until about 4 years ago (I am 38 now) I finally admitted to myself I was more libertarian than liberal. I try to think for myself now and avoid advocating positions simply because that is what liberals are supposed to believe. Which is why I am now no longer a Libertarian, but a small-L libertarian.


— William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com ,
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com and
http://mycoolwebpages.tripod.com

“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010925125235.26637.00001382@mb-mq.aol.com…

>The following comment is being relayed from Tim Kyger, who does not have access
>to this newsgroup:
>
>And to add my $0.02 worth, Bill, WRT Slusser’s “Black Muslims” comment —
>/Farnham’s Freehold/ was written in ’63, published in ’64, and if I remember
>right, the Black Muslim’s don’t come to any sort of cultural prominence for
>about two more years — i.e., about ’65, ’66, around in there.
>
>Heinlein surely was aware of the political and cultural landscape around him,
>but I truly doubt that such a marginal group was visible to him in 1963. And
>in 1963, the Black Muslims -were- marginal.
>
>Slusser was reacting, of course; which was one of the things Heinlein wanted
>people to do when reading this book (IMHO of course). It’s -supposed- to make
>you uncomfortable. And, with any luck, one would then examine the source of
>the intellectual and/or emotional discomfort, and *think* about it…

*Exactly!* The first time, I read it, I could only comprehend the discomfort it gave me. It was years before I had the intellectual capability to grasp what I *think* Heinlein was really trying to say.


— William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com ,
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com and
http://mycoolwebpages.tripod.com

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>This is forwarded from Andy Thornton — the unfortunate who started this topic
>months ago…

[snip Thornton’s depiction of Nietzschism]

>
>
>FF is a book about racism and it is a tragedy. Note the last word. Tragedy is
>the literary form wherein everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

Uh, actually I prefer a stricter definition before I apply the label ‘tragedy.’ “Goes to hell in a hand basket” is a little looser than ‘protagonist destroyed by his own hubris,’ e.g., ‘fails to learn the lesson,’ or some such more classic definition. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket in Catch-22. Does that make it a tragedy?

>Hugh
>Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing
>throughout the book.

Sez who? PPOR.

>He is acted upon rather than acts. He does not escape
>the slavery of the future but is rather kicked-out of the society by an act of
>noblesse oblige.

Well, isn’t that something like what Frye calls low-mimetic? Most of modern-day realistic fiction deals with actors who are accusative case rather than nominative. I rather thought he ‘acted’ rather badly (for a slave who should be grateful to the actor granting him noblesse oblige) by trying to destroy the world of the noble Ponce who stupidly obliged him by leaving open one tiny opening that Hugh took advantage of when he sent the bomb back to destroy Ponce and his world.

>First important point: You can be the Master in the Power relationship and yet
>operate under the Slave Morality.
>
>So now it’s time to define Slave Morality.
>
>Slave Morality is, according to Nietzsche, the exact inverse of the
>aristocratic morality found in Homer’s poetic works. Master morality does not
>work on a Good/Evil but a ThingsDone/Things-
>NotDone scale. Killing another member of the aristocracy, just because battle
>is so much fun, is a Thing Done. Taking women and boys “into your tent” for
>your own sexual satisfaction is a Thing Done; Slave Morality says you should
>Love Your Neighbor and maintain celibacy. Someone operating under the Master
>Morality would kill someone who insults them; under Slave Morality they would
>turn the other cheek. In Master Morality if
>you see a ‘wrongness’ you vow your sacred honor and fortune to correct it; in
>Slave Morality you bow your head meekly and accept God’s or the Gods’ will.
>
>Nietzsche is NOT saying one is “better” in ANY objective sense. What he IS
>doing is DESCRIBING two extreme poles of mores.

His version, of course. What’s a poor low mimetic protagonist, under Nietzsche’s scheme of things, to do? Has to have a ‘slave morality,’ otherwise he couldn’t be low mimetic (or anything like most of us — not to suggest anyone else reading here but myself is low-mimetic — the rest of you all could all be (possibly are: you read Heinlein) Heroes and Gods — I just know I ain’t.) and would have to be either a God or a Hero or a sociopathic villain anti-hero, otherwise. Maybe like Lazarus Long in his less attractive portrayals? (Nice to read about, but darned hard to emulate IRL).

>What Heinlein adds to this mix is a very low key analysis of Power (whom can to
>what to whom) Relationships. Hugh Farnham is initially the Master in terms of
>Power Relation (the scenes in the bomb shelter) and later the Slave in terms of
>the Power Relationships is throughout the book always a Slave in terms of
>Morality. (The only character, btw, who operates from the Master Morality is
>Ponce.)

That’s ’cause Ponce is a God; just ask him. Sometimes, depending on what stuff I’m smoking, I think, as Lenny Bruce did, I’m a god too — but my wife always brings me back to Earth quickly with a word or two.

>In this way we can begin to see that Hugh Farnham, while the protagonist, is
>not a hero: Romantic or Morally.

I agree he’s not a Hero. Can’t be if he’s to be very realistic, or a human operating outside a fantasy. Now Elias was a Hero. He was taken bodily into Heaven. There was no ‘heaven’ for Achilles, so he had to sit in the underworld with the rest of the shades; a clear problem in the classic heroic tale. But Hercules got promoted to mini-God, and got out of Hades. Roland, of course, goes to Heaven along with Oliver and the rest of the gang — but they were Christians, lucky them; Arthur to Avalon; etc. — a much better solution; and Oscar gets to go back hang out with Star, and go ‘a-heroing’ again possibly ad infinitum along with Rufo once he makes Hero First Class, and even gets to return to the heaven of the twenty universes he’s found thanks to Star after coming back to “Urth,” and finding it wanting.

[snip description of patronizing liberal racism common to the 1960s — and
earlier, both versions]

>For whatever reason Heinlein does not attempt to “resolve” most of the issues
>he raises in FF – and to my mind why FF is one of his weakest books – but is
>content to merely describe, or depict, them.

Why does he have to “resolve” issues?; and please define what you mean by a resolution. You’ve suggested Hugh doesn’t learn anything; and I’d like to hear your proof — at first blush it appears to me that you’re simply speculating on his state of mind at the end. What was he supposed to have learned, exactly, if, in your view, Heinlein had chosen to ‘resolve’ the issues? And why do you presume to say he didn’t learn it? As I said: PPOR.

And while we’re at it, do you think Heinlein ‘resolved’ the issues (or any issue) in Friday?

Bill: please pass this to Andy for his reply, for whom and which, as we three know, I always will endeavor to have ample smoke and mirrors available to confuse the audience, if not rebut.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

Relayed from Andy Thornton, who does not have access to this newsgroup but who started it all nevertheless and is realio-trulio to blame for It All:

I wrote:

>>FF is a book about racism and it is a tragedy. Note the last word. Tragedy is
>>the literary form wherein everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

Mr. David M. Silver has replied:

>Uh, actually I prefer a stricter definition before I apply the label ‘tragedy.’
>”Goes to hell in a hand basket” is a little looser than ‘protagonist destroyed by
>his own hubris,’ e.g., ‘fails to learn the lesson,’ or some such more classic
>definition. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket in Catch-22. Does that make it a tragedy?

I reply:

Actually Catch-22 is a Satire or what Frye would call an “Anatomy”. These thingie’s have different rules and are not on the Comedic/Tragic range or scale of literary works. The most generalized definition would have to be: a Tragedy is a story wherein the protagonist is not intergrated into a society when the plot comes to an end. Whereas Comedy is when the protag is so integrated.

[Editorial comment: the ever lit’ry Mr. Thornton means the dynamic of a tragic story is based on separation of the tragic protagonist from his society. The hamartia or tragic flaw of a Greek tragic protagonist marks that particular type of tragedy, but not tragedy as a literary genre. Back to Mr. Thornton:]

I said:

>>Hugh Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing
>>throughout the book.

Mr. Silver said:

>Sez who? PPOR.

I reply:

Sez me! Wanna make somethin’ outah it, buddy? 😉

(What does PPOR mean?)

You make a good point when you analyize the Hugh Farnham character as low-mimetic. ( I am currently 1,500 miles from my reference shelf so this definition is off the top of my head but the low-mimetic character is what Northrup Frye uses to describe a characters and/or literary works that have a knowledge and morality less than ours. I trust Mr. Silver will correct this definition.) In fact I would go so far as to say that by doing so you’ve cracked the core, speaking LitCrit, of the work. This is meant seriously: Kudos to you. And, of course, that means Heinlein is being true to his character when he has him following Slave Morality – the schmuck can’t do anything else.

Which also points to the solution previous critics have had with FF, when they bothered to notice it at all. You’ve got to understand the literary form in order to base a critique.

And what the devil does PPOR stand for?

Onward …

But any literary work is greater, or lesser, than the mere form. What Heinlein doesn’t do is resolve the intellectual theme (the Logos/Dianoia) of the work. Hugh’s only remark about the Slave/Master-Morality/Power matrix is when he says after the return something on the order of ‘When I had power I didn’t use it very well. Ponce used his power much better than I’. So the Power issue is resolved but nowhere is the Morality theme finished.

(Note, by the way, how closely Joseph in FF follows his namesake in the Bible.)

By “resolved” I mean having a character acknowledge an underlying theme through word or action and “round” it off in some manner. Like Heinlein did in the Upper Room in the last part of SIASL in the conversation between Jubal and Mike. Or in Catch-22 when Yossarian breaks-out of the the situational insanity by running away; i.e. removing himself from the situation and thereby becoming sane.

How one gets this done in a low-mimetic work is the test of the artist and, I think, Heinlein didn’t do this job in FF.

All through-out the book Friday wants to be part of a human family/community. At the end she is. That’s the (Comedic) resolution.

But in both FF and Friday Heinlein makes a very *interesting* observation: individuals can be free in almost any environment, but that freedom is only maximized when the individual is validated by a community. This is an extremely subtle and suggestive thesis. And, I might add, a _very_ American (don’t know Canada well enough to say) thought.

Andy Thornton

relayed by

Bill
BPRAL22169 wrote:

[snip]

>
>Actually Catch-22 is a Satire or what Frye would call an “Anatomy”. These

Actually, in the classic sense, Catch 22 was pathos. The characters had no control over the events that shaped their lives. The term Catch 22 is a hallmark of pathos.

OTHO, in FF, the pathos ends in romanticism.

Allow for inflation, subtract the charity tax……$0.02.

>–

Art
————————————————————————————-

When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

—————-Rudyard Kipling

In article, amcnutt5@home.com says…

>Actually, in the classic sense, Catch 22 was pathos. The characters had no control
>over the events that shaped their lives. The term Catch 22 is a hallmark of
>pathos.
>

Naw, Catch-22 is a classical comedy. It *appears* initially to be pathos, except that in the end Yosssarian *does* take control of his life (given the example of Orr).


Kirk

Experience is the best teacher…
But her pop quizzes can be mighty tough.

Kirk wrote:

>
>In article , amcnutt5@home.com says…
>>Actually, in the classic sense, Catch 22 was pathos. The characters had no control
>>over the events that shaped their lives. The term Catch 22 is a hallmark of
>>pathos.
>
>Naw, Catch-22 is a classical comedy. It *appears* initially to be
>pathos, except that in the end Yosssarian *does* take control of his
>life (given the example of Orr).

Not only classical comedy, it addresses the fact that Catches of classical tragedy were Official — and phony — constructs, in the various characters who spend the entire book reciting — as excuses, and submitting to — their various Catches, precisely as do the protagonists of classical tragedy.

Rather than “classical tragedy,” I prefer the term “propaganda.” It may have been Heller’s point, and can certainly be had without adding anything to the book but the existence of classical tragedies, but he buries it in a good yard about “idiots I have known,” or “what we did on our summer vacation.” But that Heller’s characters were all deliberately antiheroes is more than indicative that he knew it.


—+%
:oD_|
Frankly, my Dear, I don’t think the Clothes
are wearing any Emperor. Kids…
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>Relayed from Andy Thornton, who does not have access to this newsgroup but who
>started it all nevertheless and is realio-trulio to blame for It All:

[snip my quibble and his reply about ‘tragedy’ and his definition of of what Frye would call Catch-22]

>I said:
>>>Hugh Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing
>>>throughout the book.
>
>Mr. Silver said:
>>Sez who? PPOR.
>
>I reply:
>Sez me! Wanna make somethin’ outah it, buddy? 😉
>(What does PPOR mean?)

An acronym particular to this group: “provide proof or retract.” When I use it I expect to read a reply that draws a factual basis from the text to bolster the argument, detecting contrary factual threads within the work and distinguishing them from supporting a contrary argument.

>You make a good point when you analyize the Hugh Farnham character as
>low-mimetic. ( I am currently 1,500 miles from my reference shelf so this
>definition is off the top of my head but the low-mimetic character is what
>Northrup Frye uses to describe a characters and/or literary works that have a
>knowledge and morality less than ours.

Sometimes I think Frye means simply a character whose knowledge and morality equals our own imperfect states. YMMV

>I trust Mr. Silver will correct this
>definition.) In fact I would go so far as to say that by doing so you’ve
>cracked the core, speaking LitCrit, of the work. This is meant seriously:
>Kudos to you.

Dr. Richard Lanham, Professor of English at UCLA, retired, a Frye disciple, would possibly be a little proud of what effect his teaching had my poor effort but he’d tell me to try harder than that.

>And, of course, that means Heinlein is being true to his
>character when he has him following Slave Morality – the schmuck can’t do
>anything else.
>
>Which also points to the solution previous critics have had with FF, when they
>bothered to notice it at all. You’ve got to understand the literary form in
>order to base a critique.

You meant to say “problem”?

>And what the devil does PPOR stand for?
>
>Onward …
>
>But any literary work is greater, or lesser, than the mere form. What Heinlein
>doesn’t do is resolve the intellectual theme (the Logos/Dianoia) of the work.
>Hugh’s only remark about the Slave/Master-Morality/Power matrix is when he says
>after the return something on the order of ‘When I had power I didn’t
>use it very well. Ponce used his power much better than I’. So the Power issue
>is resolved but nowhere is the Morality theme finished.

I’d disagree. Look at the instance when the Grand Slam occurs, er, the second grand slam, or was it the third? Hugh discards the slave morality at that moment, at what is essentially the very beginning of the story. The rest is mere elaboration, restatement, and peregrinations.

>(Note, by the way, how closely Joseph in FF follows his namesake in the Bible.)

Lovely, isn’t it? Hugh as Potifer? [Was that how it is spelled?] But now, doesn’t Hugh then twist the story and echo the sequel: the Moses story vis-a-vis his relationship with Ponce, leading Ponce and his Egyptian armies into the flood of the closing of the Red Sea when he sends the bomb back? “Pay back” is hell?

>By “resolved” I mean having a character acknowledge an underlying theme through
>word or action and “round” it off in some manner. Like Heinlein did in the
>Upper Room in the last part of SIASL in the conversation between Jubal and
>Mike. Or in Catch-22 when Yossarian breaks-out of the the situational insanity
>by running away; i.e. removing himself from the situation and thereby becoming
>sane.

I view the intellectual theme a little differently. Hugh is the ‘adult educated’ man of his time, much like Owenby’s thesis in the work as yet unpublished but based on his dissertation suggests Heinlein advocated. Hugh got his learning, his social morality, out of books. Viz. his library selections, but note that his library selection omits the then early-1960s current sociology pap he undoubtedly also read.

At the point of the third grand slam (Hugh’s imagined last fling with Barbara as the second grand slam is arriving on target), Hugh has rejected the nicey-nicey teaching of contemporary self-improvement or family improvement writing, the same sort of break the rod, spoil the child junk that resulted in Ducky, er, “Duke” turning out the way he did. The same sort of writing containing a wrong contemporary viewpoint of the black man the family newspapers and magazines taught him.

The balance of the story tells the ultimate total rejection by Hugh of those social mores — “protect and be loyal to wife and family at all costs,” in an in extremis situation, mind you, and therefore a ‘slave morality’ appropriate solution, if you like — he finally has no intention of rescuing Grace or Ducky, what efforts he expended were rejected, and he leaves Joseph with them as well (Joseph figuratively screwed his wife along with his friendship by becoming Pharaoh’s stooge) when he takes Barbara and his new set of children back to the promised land, and closes the sea in around Ponce who he knows intends to pursue.

>How one gets this done in a low-mimetic work is the test of the artist and, I
>think,
>Heinlein didn’t do this job in FF.

I think, as I’ve suggested, maybe he did, beginning with the third slam as I suggest.

>All through-out the book Friday wants to be part of a human family/community.
>At the
>end she is. That’s the (Comedic) resolution.

In a way. I always view Friday as satire, “tend your garden” a la Voltaire; but I agree the ending is a ‘happy’ one.

>But in both FF and Friday Heinlein makes a very *interesting* observation:
>individuals
>can be free in almost any enviornment, but that freedom is only maximized when
>the
>individual is validated by a community.

And in an apocalyptic community, necessarily the ‘community’ follows what mores it self creates. Ponce and the boys ate humans. Hugh leaves behind his fat wife and fat gelded son for their future menu, if they are to have any further eating. And Hugh gets out of the business of raising ‘long pig.’

>This is an extremely subtle and
>suggestive
>thesis. And, I might add, a _very_ American (don’t know Canada well
>enough to say) thought.
>
>Andy Thornton
>relayed by
>Bill

Please punt back to Andy, Bill, if you find time.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

>Sometimes I think Frye means simply a character whose knowledge and morality
>equals our own imperfect states. YMMV

People who haven’t read Anatomy of Criticism may be lost at this point. Frye suggests, following Aristotle, that genres sort themselves out by their attitutudes toward the protagonists. They may be (1) Superior to us in both kind and status (i.e., gods), (2) Superior to us in status but equal in kind (i.e., the heroes of legend and myth); (3) Equal in both kind and status — and here we have the bulk of 19th century novel of manners, or (4) equal in kind but inferior in status (which gives us the modern “ironic” novel.

There are other possibilities less frequently used — a work about animals, for instance (Bambi?, Watership Down?), would give us inferior in kind as well as status — or possibly about a demon

The high mimetic deals with gods and heroes in fantastic or exotic settings; low mimetic deals with ordinary humans in naturalistic settings (these are rules of thumb). Myth and romance are the usual literary forms associated with the high mimetic — and Heinlein was extremely fond of romance forms. In fact, you can make a good case (as Frye does in several cryptic remarks) that science fiction is inherently a romance form. This seems to me to explain why Heinlein was attracted to the expressive possibilities of science fiction. I have said before that I think of Farnham’s Freehold as a romance of a king and court in exile, which explains the figures of powerlessness and dependency.

Bill
“James Nicoll”wrote in message

news:9oqbnu$1fq$1@panix3.panix.com…

>In article ,
>BPRAL22169 wrote:
>>>It was not ambiguous.
>>>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>>>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>>>racist.
>>
>>Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but
>>there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).
>>
>>Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the time
>>were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims.
>
>Well, I think we can agree that the dominant level of society
>certainly thought of itself as black. Wasn’t there a section about Islam
>in FF? ISTR Hugh thinking the text he was reading was different from the
>version he read in the 20th Century.

He says something about the Prophet not being able to recognize the text they use.

NW
Jane Davitt wrote:

>Lou Adornato wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals
>> dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be
>> further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those
>> books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain
>> just how wrong they were.
>
>This brings up what I think is an important point; the need to look squarely
>at those accusations and try to answer them and understand what might have
>prompted them.
>
>I have always, possibly, maybe probably, erroneously, thought that Heinlein
>was speaking through his character Archie, in Magic Inc. If you recall, a
>character in that is, “as black as draftsmans ink!”

Such expressions were common in the 1940s, perhaps more honest than politically correct expressions today. How exactly do you today describe a very dark skinned “black” man? A “black Black.” Forgive me, but blank-blank to that. I keep remembering early 1950s political discussions my mother participated in when they had folk over for dinner and drinks. She’d complain about her thwarted efforts to get into restaurant management, by describing herself as: “I’m free, white, and twenty-one, but I can’t convince the people I work for that I can run a restaurant as well as any of the last six managers they’ve hired.” Finally, she bought a part of her own restaurant; and ran it very well, thank you, until her two bird-brained male partners got into a dispute over who was and who wasn’t ‘male’ enough (one of them had been ‘outed’ — he also happened to be one of the best chefs in town) and dissolved the business partnership to everyone’s detriment.

>Like Mr Kiku, Dr Worthington is an African who has been educated at Oxbridge.
>He is also a witch doctor. Archie is shocked to discover that he is a Negro
>but;
>”I tried not to show surprise. I hope I did not, for I have an utter horror of
>showing that kind of rudeness.”

Imagine what folk who encountered Ralph Bunche, or first saw a newsreel of the man at the United Nations felt.

>Later he says,
>’We white men in this country are inclined to underestimate the black man – I
>know I do – because we see him out of his cultural matrix. Those we know have
>had their own culture wrenched from them some generations back and a servile
>pseudo culture imposed on them by force. We forget that the black man has a
>culture of his own, older than ours and more solidly grounded, based on
>character and the power of the mind rather than the cheap, ephemeral tricks of
>mechanical gadgets. But it is a stern, fierce culture with no sentimental
>concern for the weak and the unfit, and it never quite dies out.
>I stood up in involuntary respect when Dr Worthington entered the room.”

Yet, I would criticize this statement because Ralph Bunche was emphatically within his culture. Nevertheless RAH had to make the point by referring to an African culture. How quaint! A Frenchman’s reference to the glories of the Sun King leaves me untouched; I want to know what France has done lately, aside from foisting le grande Charles on the world, and enticing Dulles and Eisenhower into taking over the fight in Vietnam.

>That doesn’t sound racist to me…yet consider this comment by Slusser in his
>critique of Heinlein, ‘Stranger In His Own Land”. He has been discussing Time
>For The Stars and Double Star;
>”There are more egregious stereotypes. The kind and saintly Uncle Alfred of
>’Time For The Stars’ has as counterpart here another gentle darkie, the
>faithful errand boy Jimmie Washington.

Well, then, there’s always Colin Campbell, just about as unkind and unsaintly as you would like; but Heinlein had to slip that business about the color of his feet in at us late in the novel. And we were into what? the eighties? when he found that necessary. Maybe the problem is the society, not Heinlein, if he still found that necessary in an adult novel by then.

>Women in both novels are either
>helpless, whining creatures, or prudes – discardables. At their best, women
>and Blacks are fit to be servants and adulators of the elect, no more.”

Slusser wrote when? Before or after Cat?

>This is the kind of assertion that needs to be pulled to pieces and examined
>in the light of day, not shuffled aside in embarrassment in case it contains a
>shred of truth.
>I believe that Slusser has made an error here because he is assuming that the
>depiction of some women as whiners or prudes is wrong. It isn’t. Some women
>are like that. Including them in a book that has other strong, admirable
>female characters ( Vicky and Celeste for instance) is allowable by any
>standards. By the same token, a black character who is in an administrative
>position ( as Jimmie Washington is) is not the same as a black character in a
>servile/slavelike position.

Of course, Slusser might come back by saying that any black portrayed by Heinlein as having leadership ability either eats his white slaves (Ponce) or eats Walker Evans (Colin Campbell aka Richard Ames); and what do you suppose, he’d inquire, Heinlein was trying to say by that? All Blacks are savage cannibals? I suppose you could reply that so too are whites: e.g., what does Duke keep calling Mike?

>Go through Double Star and see how Washington is described; loyal, tight
>lipped, utterly trustworthy. He isn’t just a civil servant either; he is a
>member of the great parliament, representing the Lapps. It is a safe
>district…but so is Penny’s. They are not slavish characteristics.

Neither I suppose was cannibalism. Still wondering what he was trying to say when he named my favorite female (pre-Maureen Johnson in To Sail) character Friday. Friday, aside from other things, shared one attribute with Podkayne and her Unca Tom, her literary ancestor was a cannibal as well.

I’m going to have to closely read an uncut version of Defoe’s romance again, I suppose. Read it as if it is a satire and see how Robinson stacks up next to the cannibal who was Marjorie Baldwin’s antecedent.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
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AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, David. Where’s your alter ego?

AGplusone: afk, eating dinner snack

DavidWrightSr: Sorry. wasn’t watching the screen. I am trying to bring my laptop on-line

DavidWrightSr: with the tv so I can watch ER while chatting tonight.

AGplusone: that’ll work … but don’t tell me. It comes on at 10 PM out here. Hour after chat ends.

AGplusone: I’ve already figured out plot. Mark goes to jail for murder and has to leave the series …

AGplusone: blonde doctor comes back …

AGplusone: Doug runs out on Carol Hathaway, and she has to come back to support rug-rat, falls in love with blonde doctor and they live happily ever after as lez team.

DavidWrightSr: You are probably right, but I would hate for it to be that predicatible

DavidWrightSr: predictable

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DavidWrightSr: Mark is leaving sometime at the end of this year I believe. My son will be happy

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AGplusone: Eric leaves too

AGplusone: Watch Enterprise last night?

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AGplusone: Missed first fifteen minutes. Came on here at 8 PM, and I was channel surfing until I found the TV guide.

AGplusone: Hardly ever go to channel 13 which is where it cames on.

DavidWrightSr: http://tvguide.com

AGplusone: Of course, we must watch Buffy coming out of her grave next tuesday.

DavidWrightSr: You can customize that for your zipcode.

AGplusone: Now we know what she was doing off-screen with the friendly vampire ….

DavidWrightSr: I have never watched Buffy. My wife can’t be talked into it.

AGplusone: whatever his name is …

AGplusone: I watch it when everything else is really the pits.

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AGplusone: life

DavidWrightSr: I was just reading your latest post on a.f.h.

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AGplusone: Including that sleazy librarian … which one?

AGplusone: “Buffy and her girlfriends to parents: Well, we’re going to the library tonight to meet with the librarian, you know, that 30ish guy they hired … ”

AGplusone: Parents to Buff and gang: “Like hell you are! We know what you’re up to!”

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi D’s

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Just because you’re really a J, only married to one of god’s elect, now there’s no need to make fun of us ‘beloveds’ …

Lu11Bran has entered the room.

ddavitt: Ha!

Lu11Bran: Hello

AGplusone: Evening Bill, and hello and welcome Lu11Bran.

BPRAL22169: Greetings, andy

ddavitt: Hi there

AGplusone: Okay, then, Andy …

BPRAL22169: Lu11Bran is Andy Thornton

ddavitt: I was saving keystrokes..someone has to

Lu11Bran:

ddavitt: Now you’re just confusing me Andy

ddavitt: OK, that makes sense I suppose

Lu11Bran: I do it with mirrors

BPRAL22169: Oh, vacation? is that what it is?

ddavitt: A Hinlein title

ddavitt: Heinlein even…

pakgwei has entered the room.

Lu11Bran: If I knew how to change the silly name I would, but I don’t

BPRAL22169: That reminds me — I just acquired a copy of that issue of Popular Detective.

ddavitt: Hi pakgwei

AGplusone: Hi, Pakgwei, ltnc

pakgwei: morning

ddavitt: Really? Is it illustrated?

Lu11Bran: In NC to pick-up a cello (believe it or not)

AGplusone: Morning? Where are you, Korea?

BPRAL22169: It hasn’t arrived yet.

ddavitt: Does it say who he really is or just have the pen name

pakgwei: no… DC

Lu11Bran: Greetings pakgwei

ddavitt: Oh well, tell me when it does

ddavitt: Was it hard to get?

BPRAL22169: Just the pen name, I understand.

Lu11Bran: to whom was your remark directed ddavitt?

BPRAL22169: Not hard — but as with anything on EBay, it takes patience.

ddavitt: Bill but was the cello difficult too?

Lu11Bran: Nope, just a pain

ddavitt: And you can call me J

ddavitt: er, Jane

Lu11Bran: ok Jane, I should have remembered that

AGplusone: Ginny asked me to give everyone her regrets, she doesn’t feel too well tonight, especially not too charitable toward Islam (or certain branches of it).

ddavitt: Sorry to hear that.

Lu11Bran: hope she feels better soon

BPRAL22169: I have a keepsake of Ginny’s cold; I thought it was getting better, but it seems to have moved into my intestines today.

ddavitt: No, I’m the shrinking violet type, easy to overlook

AGplusone: And she’s still got that cruddy flu

ddavitt: I have been snuffly but feel brighter today

BPRAL22169: Hard to believe it’s only been two weeks.

ddavitt: My parents arrived safely from the Uk.

ddavitt: That was a relief

BPRAL22169: Are they having thd same kind of hysteria in Canada we’re going through in the U.S.?

AGplusone: yep … isn’t it nice to not hear about the sexual pecadillos of politicians for two whole weeks!

ddavitt: Yes, lots of coverage

Lu11Bran: I’ll have an order of tamales, hold the pecadillos – please

pakgwei: I think I’m going into Brittney withdrawel though

ddavitt: I saw her pepsi advert

ddavitt: But I didn’t know it was her..

AGplusone: Anyone read Safire’s Times column yesterday or this morning, I forget which … ?

BPRAL22169: I believe her breasts are on videotape already.

Lu11Bran: don’t read Safire

AGplusone: Usually I don’t either, but was bored

AGplusone: he’s off out-of-step as usual, saying ‘nuthin’s changed, except now maybe we’ll pay attention to reality for a while

Lu11Bran: anything intelligent or his usual blather?

maikoshT has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi David

AGplusone: fairly intelligent point

AGplusone: Hi, David two

DavidWrightSr: Hi to all again.

DavidWrightSr: Finally got everything set the way I want it.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Actually, that’s not a bad point — nothing has changed; we just got a demonstration of what people have been trying to get us to pay attention to for the last thirty years.

ddavitt: That’s ironic…

AGplusone: famous last words

Lu11Bran: is that an editorial comment?

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘got everything set the way I want it’

AGplusone: musta hit ESC\

pakgwei: wb

BPRAL22169: That will do it.

DavidWrightSr: And then I immediately bomb out on one. Yep, the old ESC

Lu11Bran:

Lu11Bran: People are now going to the supermarket expecting terrorists to jump out from the dried figs…it’s ridiculous

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: I believe you’re up to speed on all the pre-chat posts, Andy; how would you like to fulfill your destiny and kick off the discussion?

pakgwei: topic tonight?

BPRAL22169: True — everybody knows you can’t hide behind a dried fig. You need a bunch of dates for that.

AGplusone: …. wheet …. wheeeet …… wheeeet …..

ddavitt: Or a leaf at least

Lu11Bran: Our topic tonight is Heinlein’s depiction of racism in Farnham’s Freehold and Friday

Lu11Bran: and we may EVEN talk about the topic!!!!

pakgwei: hey… books Ive actually finished this time

pakgwei: :-)

AGplusone:

ddavitt: and star beast?

ddavitt: Pretty please/:-)

AGplusone: if you must, Jane

Lu11Bran: For you Jane, anything

ddavitt: I must, i will, i shall

ddavitt: How sweet!

AGplusone: I did reply to your post.

ddavitt: Thank you.

ddavitt: I saw it but have been too busy with guests

ddavitt: To reply

ddavitt: And that was the magic Inc post not the Star Beast one I think

BPRAL22169: I tend to think of the rather pointed anti-racist setting of Star Beast and Rocket Ship Galileo as the “practice” while Friday and FF is the theory.

ddavitt: He refined the technique you mean?

ddavitt: And they were juveniles…broader brush approach required?

AGplusone: juveniles vs. adult

ddavitt: GMTA

Lu11Bran: In both SB and RSG it was real background material, whereas in FF and F it was a basic building block of the works

AGplusone: semi-G

BPRAL22169: No — FF and F are explorations of theory, whereas TSB and RSG used his conclusions in setting.

ddavitt: speak for yourself….

ddavitt: But racism was rife in SB

AGplusone: xenophobic setting

ddavitt: I don’t see how that differs from FF

BPRAL22169: I rather think, though, that the comments about Worthington in “Magic, Inc.,” would be classified as “racist” by pcers.

AGplusone: I agree

ddavitt: But times have changed; that was, what, 50 years ago?

BPRAL22169: 62

ddavitt: I have a problem with all black people being classed as Africans

BPRAL22169: or 61, depending on how you count it.

BPRAL22169: I have a problem with “African-Americans.” Americans are not hyphenated.

ddavitt: Those third generation US are simply American to me

ddavitt: As are the Italians, germans,…

ddavitt: Why the hyphen?

pakgwei: ‘don’t look at me,… I always thought I was ‘human’

ddavitt: That too

DavidWrightSr: Notice, we never say ‘English-Americans’?

BPRAL22169: It’s a much prouder thing, IMO, to be an American than to be a human — as Aaron Sorkin said “This country has been a beacon to the world for 2 centuries…”

AGplusone: I always thought I was “free, white (nominally), and twenty-one”

ddavitt: Quite…

ddavitt: Well, I might beg to differ on that Bill

pakgwei: well then I’m a mutt

Lu11Bran: there is a connection, rapidly getting more historical, between being of overt African descent and low social/economic status

AGplusone: … and then they let eighteen-year-olds vote, wadda let down.

BPRAL22169: David W — “anglo-Americans” is in use.

ddavitt: If you, and your grandparenst were born and raised in the US, you’re American, end of story

BPRAL22169: If you choose to be an American, you’re an American, end of story.

AGplusone: Ah, but they weren’t, at least three of them weren’t.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, but that is rare, much rarer than african-american or irish-american etc. I think.

ddavitt: Complicated if parents were immigrants; one of my daughters is Canadian, one isn’t

BPRAL22169: How did Between Planets get in here?

ddavitt: But in a century or so..why cling to the past?

ddavitt: He was the ultimate confused citizen

BPRAL22169: Heinlein had a remark about particularism, didn’t he?

ddavitt: That was racist too; fog eaters?

ddavitt: leads to trouble

AGplusone: ‘citizen of the solar system’ — was that what he wanted to call himself

ddavitt: Citizen of the system, yes

Lu11Bran: and was told that that might mean something, someday… but not at that point

ddavitt: Identifying with a small group, not the whole, leads to problems

BPRAL22169: The theory he set out in “Politics of Patriotism” is actually related to his ideas about racism.

AGplusone: pp. in Universe?

ddavitt: In a way, Americans have a class system

BPRAL22169: Expanded Universe, yes — also Analog in I think January 1974.

ddavitt: ‘real Americans’ equate to royalty

Lu11Bran: yup, just not as fixed as the British system

ddavitt: I have moved from working clas to middle; that’s not hard

AGplusone: Yeah, if there’s a middle class left

BPRAL22169: It’s not the presence or absence of classes — it’s the permeability of the boundaries between the classes that’s characteristic of America’s (formerly) open society.

ddavitt: But isn’t a mexican who comes legally over the border and becomes a citizen looked down on more than a mayflower descendant type?

AGplusone: Depends on what part of Colorado you come from

ddavitt: All citizens are not the same..some are ‘better’

BPRAL22169: Depends on — GMTA

BPRAL22169: There isn’t any consensus as to class status any more. there never really was, but people pretended there was…

AGplusone: As in: I was here from Coronado, when did you arrive?

BPRAL22169: I mean, by mid 20th’ century.

ddavitt: In the Uk, it’s judged on your job, wealth, apart from nobility ( different rules)

AGplusone: What makes belonging to skull and bones any different from being nobility?

BPRAL22169: In the U.S. people do make the same sort of judgments — but they are regarded as individual (and sometimes as weaknesses)

ddavitt: It’s also something you can label very precisely without knowing how you do it

ddavitt: trailer park trash is a label

ddavitt: not a kind one, but it’s used isn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Those judgment are not regarded as affirming a system.

AGplusone: I like trailer park Barbie … she’s refreshing

ddavitt: You could say that about someone not actaully living in a trailer..it’s a type?

BPRAL22169: We may do some of the same thigns in the U.S. as are done in the UK — but they don’t mean the same thing in a social sense.

ddavitt: As in the Uk someone can be comoon and rich

BPRAL22169: Yes: All of Las Vegas is one gigantic trailor park.

Lu11Bran: As I see it the Brit’s still have a lingering “Master Morality” left from the aristocracy days –

ddavitt: common

ddavitt: tugging forelocks?

DavidWrightSr: We have a very racist saying here in the south. ‘Po white trash’ implying that …

Lu11Bran: yes, actually

AGplusone: but in Las Vegas you get out of the trailer park label if you belong to the LDS

DavidWrightSr: it would be expected from blacks, but not from whites

AGplusone: since they are the elite these days there

ddavitt: Maybe..not my generation so much tho; the royals have lost so much ground recently

BPRAL22169: Now that’s a scary thought.

Lu11Bran: An Earl (or Duke) can get away with stuff that wouldn’t be tolerated in a commoner

ddavitt: If they are the ultimate and they are shoddy, how can you respect anyone?

ddavitt: I have never been the curtesying type..but that’s just me

ddavitt: I don’t see how who your parents are define you

Lu11Bran: I’ve heard that one will get better treatment in the UK by affecting an upper class accent. I do not know if that is true

ddavitt: Oh yes.

BPRAL22169: Oxonian

ddavitt: I got lots of stick for my accent

AGplusone: Well, we don’t curtsy, but they still lay us off without warning after we bail out their industry

ddavitt: I’m from the Midland

ddavitt: I don’t towk rite:-)

ddavitt: I say ‘book’ not ‘buck’

BPRAL22169: Arrh doan tawk ri-yut, you mean?

ddavitt: Sort of but not that broad.

Lu11Bran: I’m from Kansas, meself

AGplusone: Sí, señor!

BPRAL22169: And we’re not in Kansas any more, Toto!

ddavitt: My friend at uni was from walsall; 40 miles away. We had trouble communicating the first few weeks

BPRAL22169: That’s true — no common language.

pakgwei: are you from england or Brooklyn?

pakgwei: :-)

ddavitt: But voice is important

BPRAL22169: Same difference.

ddavitt: England:-)

ddavitt: Potteries; you know, Arnold Bennett, Wedgewood pottery

ddavitt: Andy; rein us in, we are getting far afield

pakgwei: i know tupperware

pakgwei:

AGplusone: ‘Dazed and Confused’ …

BPRAL22169: You think we can extend this to get him out of the country, while we’re at it?

pakgwei: send him to england

pakgwei: :-)

BPRAL22169: Good idea.

pakgwei: wasnt the toipic racism?

ddavitt: err, thanks, I think…

BPRAL22169: Are we all on the same page in re: FF is an anti-racist statement?

ddavitt: OK, why did H make them cannibals in FF? Why go so OTT?

BPRAL22169: OTT?

ddavitt: over the top

AGplusone: Haven’t gotten many faxs asking whether bin Ladin’s camel is pregnant lately, but then I’m not in bidness anymore.

BPRAL22169: Ah.

pakgwei: i think FF was more observation than comment

ddavitt: He made them demons…worst nightmares..

DenvToday: Yes, I think it is.

Lu11Bran: He designed a future that would be a racist’s worst nightmare

ddavitt: Why did he do that?

BPRAL22169: Perhaps he was saying “look how much worse things could be”?

AGplusone: Deliberately so? Why didn’t he just leave it with them cultivated and kind?

ddavitt: That doesn’t really work for me

AGplusone: Instead of making them cannibals?

ddavitt: maybe David. Why not?

BPRAL22169: That wouldn’t work for the story — he has two conflicting principles:

ddavitt: Because that wouldn’t work with racists?

Lu11Bran: in a book about racism you have to push buttons, gouge egos, throw sand in the works

BPRAL22169: Cultural relativism: every culture evolves with its own values intact

ddavitt: But were many H readers likely to be racists?

BPRAL22169: versus the civil values of Western Civilization go down the tube.

DavidWrightSr: I personally don’t think that ‘racism’ is the main theme in FF

BPRAL22169: I don’t either.

ddavitt: Isn’t a love of Sf sort of saying that you are more tolerant of differences?

Lu11Bran: he’s not talking TO racists but ABOUT racism

ddavitt: You read about aliens

AGplusone: Ginny told me once that they liked Pat Frank’s stories … his post-apocalyptic involves a hero black man

ddavitt: If you can accept them green and with tentacles, a mere few shades of skin colour is nothing

BPRAL22169: Is that Mr. Adam?

Lu11Bran: this was during the height of the Civil Right’s Era… people were getting killed in the South

AGplusone: the Air Force veteran, no, Alas Babylon

AGplusone: and white villains

BPRAL22169: Right.

ddavitt: so if it isn’t racism was is it?

BPRAL22169: Andy, “what” was in the height of the civil rights era?

ddavitt: FF?

BPRAL22169: Pronouns, pronouns.

Lu11Bran: FF, wasn’t it written in 1963?

BPRAL22169: Can’t be — written in Jan/Feb 63

ddavitt: I tought you had stuff going on about then

AGplusone: not much

BPRAL22169: It was just ramping up at about that time.

DavidWrightSr: I think the main theme deals with ‘Power corrupts’

ddavitt: Wasn’t MLK killed in 64?

DenvToday: 68

Lu11Bran: 68

ddavitt: Ah..sorry

ddavitt: H ahead of his time again?

AGplusone: freedom marches began in late 50s ….

BPRAL22169: Same as Bobby Kennedy — ramping up for the 1968 election.

Lu11Bran: the Voter’s Right legislation wasn’t passed until … 64? 66?

BPRAL22169: That’s an important view of the subject matter — he was using dialog paradigms from before the Civil Rights movement.

AGplusone: Eisenhower sent in the 101st Airborne to Little Rock in 58, 59 …

BPRAL22169: Arkanas! Can no good come out of Arkansas!

DenvToday: None ever has

BPRAL22169: Not so far.

ddavitt: Would he have written Hugh differently in say 1970?

AGplusone: Told Faubus he’d nationalized the Arkansas Natl Guard and they could all go home.

ddavitt: Was he trying to make him PC for that era?

ddavitt: Are we judging him as lacking from our perspective and missing something?

BPRAL22169: Hugh Farnham’s attitudes seem conventionally “country club liberal” for that period.

ddavitt: Was that about as good as it got?

Lu11Bran: Don’t forget Heinlein was from the south (Missouri).

ddavitt: I mean, was Hugh a good guy?

AGplusone: I’m not even sure I’d go that far, Bill. They seemed simply in tune with the time for someone not from the south

BPRAL22169: I think he was trying to make Farnham PC for that period.

ddavitt: But NOW he seems condescending

AGplusone: country club liberal is an oxymoron …

ddavitt: I liked the point that we don’t get Joe’s last name

BPRAL22169: It wasn’t back then.

Lu11Bran: Let’s put it this way, the Commies in the ’30’s had a saying: “I’ll bring the folk singer, you bring the Negro”

AGplusone: country clubs are generally conservative, even back then

BPRAL22169: Heinlein always does such fascinating things like that with names.

ddavitt: It is typical though; slaves didn’t have last names

ddavitt: Or only that of their owners

ddavitt: Is that right?

AGplusone: Is there anything significant about the two towns of Farnham in England, Jane?

Lu11Bran: I’m convinced Heinlein modeled Joe on the Joseph story in the Bible

BPRAL22169: Well, yes, David, that was kind of the point of having an expression like that: someone who espoused liberal social values but didn’t act on them.

AGplusone: I agree with you, Andy

ddavitt: I lived near one of them; no I don’t think so

ddavitt: Not that i know of anyway

Lu11Bran: what does “Hugh” mean?

BPRAL22169: I always wondered what to make of The black Prince — couldn’t find anything in symbolical philosophy. But Potiphar does seem to work.

ddavitt: But didn’t Joe like Hugh?

ddavitt: Before they went forward?

BPRAL22169: And Joseph fell out with Potiphar because his wife was scorned.

Lu11Bran: Joe worked for Hugh, but I don’t think he liked him. I know I wouldn’t like the son of a gun

AGplusone: Hugh: prob. from “heart” or “mind”

BPRAL22169: I believe it was short for “Hubert.”

DenvToday: Actually, it’s short for “Hefner”

Lu11Bran: Ahh, I wonder – I wonder

BPRAL22169: Hsssss!

BPRAL22169: He did hang around with Heff a bit back in those days.

AGplusone: Simon Schuster’s 2d Collegiate ed, Websters … just says ‘heart’ or ‘mind’

Lu11Bran: OK, so what does “Farnham” mean?

AGplusone: … probably … just two cities in England so far as I can find

Lu11Bran: We have “Heart” or “Mind” of Farnham

BPRAL22169: “Ham” is a village — hamlet, actually. smaller than a town.

DenvToday: No kidding? Hef in the sixties. Non-apologetic sexism and hedonism at the Chicago mansion. Why not me, Lord?

Lu11Bran: I HATE NOT HAVING MY REFERENCE LIBRARY

BPRAL22169: I have thousands of books around me but not a single name reference book.

ddavitt: Hugh is Germanic, bright in mind and spirit

Lu11Bran: In that case what good are you?

BPRAL22169: But what about Hubert?

BPRAL22169: (I ask myself that constantly)

DenvToday: Yeah, what about Hubert?

ddavitt: Hubert is shining of mind

AGplusone: OHG

ddavitt: similar

DenvToday: Humber Humphrey should have retired the name.

ddavitt: barbara is strange, foreign..hmmm

DenvToday: Hubert Humphrey, that is.

BPRAL22169: “famous warrior” from the Germanic elements hun “warrior” and beraht “famous”. This name was introduced to Britain by the Normans. It was borne by two kings of Italy.

AGplusone: of course, Hugh Capet was the first Marshal of the Franks

BPRAL22169: That came from a meaning of names site.

AGplusone: ancestor of Pepin and Charlemagne?

ddavitt: Karen = pure. Very ironic

ddavitt: Pure of heart maybe

ddavitt: But for the time, not a good girl

AGplusone: Just a couple years ahead of the love generation

Lu11Bran: Darn, that was the daughter?

AGplusone: yep

ddavitt: with her shoes on..an eager beave…sorry

ddavitt: Yes, the one who died in childbirth

ddavitt: Duke = leader. Well, he tried

Lu11Bran: What is the name for the “other women”?

Lu11Bran: who goes back with Hugh

ddavitt: Barabara?

ddavitt: Foreign

ddavitt: strange

ddavitt: She was too, an outsider to the group

AGplusone: from the Latin, fem. of barbarus

ddavitt: A wild card in the bridge, playing cards analogy H uses in that story

Lu11Bran: She was the only one that seemed to have at least some grasp of reality

AGplusone: But she knew how to play by the book too, if she had to

ddavitt: She was an odd character

ddavitt: I didn’t like her much

ddavitt: Didn’t like anyone in that book much come to think of it

Lu11Bran: One of the problems I have with FF is my dislike of every character therein.

AGplusone: low mimetic chaacters ….

ddavitt: Nasty, small minded lot

AGplusone: you’re supposed to look down on them and understand their mistakes

Lu11Bran: with no redeeming social features

ddavitt: First part is easy

AGplusone: I thought Hugh had a few

ddavitt: I know :-)

AGplusone: Ginny tells me they modeled him on the guy who built their home in Colorado Springs, named Hugh too

AGplusone: but he didn’t have a wife who drank

ddavitt: That has to be a Leslyn connection

ddavitt: A way of H getting it off his chest by writing about it?

BPRAL22169: Well, I just tried to get a surname site from Askjeeves dot com and tried to wade through the dinosaurs and abbreviations.

AGplusone: I felt it possible

AGplusone: and only had a daughter, not a

ddavitt: Don’t annoy a writer; he’ll put you in a book…

AGplusone: Duckie

AGplusone: They liked him. he could build anything

ddavitt: Duke is the best of the lot….

DenvToday: lol Jane I’ll remember that

AGplusone: Duckie?

AGplusone: Hah!

ddavitt: Wel, if Grace did represent Leslyn she had a bad ending…

Lu11Bran: In FF it is a male who is dominant while in Friday it is a woman who is dominant during the crisis’…. does anyone wish to speak to that (little cat amongst the pigeons)

BPRAL22169: Not “represent” — he may have used some traits of his experience, but writers generally reprocess stuff.

ddavitt: Sure..to avoid law suits

ddavitt: And because reality isn’t always that interesting

BPRAL22169: No — that’s a side benefit; they do it because it serves their art.

AGplusone: Duckie is possibly the biggest weakling next to the english professor in Dora’s story (the one figures he could run the bank better)

ddavitt: Is friday dominant?

ddavitt: Isn’t she Boss’s puppet?

BPRAL22169: There’s also a freedom/license issue raised between Hugh and Duke

Lu11Bran: No, the woman in the Troika in Canada

BPRAL22169: Duke’s conception of freedom is that he will endanger everybody in the shelter.

Lu11Bran: (I can’t remember her name)

ddavitt: Oh, janet, sorry

Lu11Bran: Yes, Janet

AGplusone: He has the ‘right’ to endanger them

ddavitt: Yes, she seems to be

AGplusone: because he’s “Duke” … he has a right to a ‘share’ … because he’s Duke

AGplusone: rest on his father’s laurels

ddavitt: I don’t agree entirely with that.

BPRAL22169: Funny — the U.S. falls apart into balkanized states, so Friday can get her personal unity.

AGplusone: How don’t you agree jane?

ddavitt: Isn’t that a bit of a stretch Bill? Or do you mean as a comparison of themes?

ddavitt: Well, this is old road we are travelling David…

DenvToday: I must be getting to bed. Work tomorrow. I’ll see you all on Saturday.

DenvToday: Night everybody!

Lu11Bran: bye….

AGplusone: night Ron

ddavitt: and I don’t have FF handy to refute you with brilinatly chosen quotations

ddavitt: Night Ron

DenvToday: Night…

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: good, we’re even, you’ll have to make due with your memory

AGplusone: do

ddavitt: Duke is starting out at a disadvatage, thanks in great part to H’s neglect

Lu11Bran: make ’em up – that’s what everyone else does 😉

ddavitt: He is doing the best he can

ddavitt:

ddavitt: I never do that!!

AGplusone: Why? He’s a successful adult, a lawyer, bright, polished, obnoxious … what more did he need to sustain himself in Colorado.

ddavitt: Hugh humiliates him then expects loyalty. Duh…that’s so likely isn’t it?

AGplusone: He asks for it.

ddavitt: B didn’t think much of him and she is an outsider

AGplusone: Hugh should have simply shot him, and pushed him outside.

Lu11Bran: We’ve been going for an hour … does anyone want to take a break?

ddavitt: That would have shown what a hero he was?

AGplusone: Heroes survive. Dukes cause the boat to sink.

ddavitt: The group dynamics would have suffered from that

BPRAL22169: We just really got started; unless there is need, I say keep going for another 30 minutes or so.

ddavitt: Grace would have gone ballistic

AGplusone: No great loss.

ddavitt: B had just met him. Would she have slept with a man who had just murdered his son (her date)

AGplusone: Sedate her and hang her up in the larder for reserve supplies later on.

ddavitt: Well, maybe she would.

AGplusone: She didn’t like him, and was really there for Karen.

BPRAL22169: Oh, you’re really enjoying this, aren’t you?

ddavitt: Which of us?

ddavitt: This is an old, old fight

AGplusone: She was using Duke … as an entre.

ddavitt: An entree?

AGplusone: that one

ddavitt: Who was main course?

ddavitt: Oh, yes, someone else’s husband!

BPRAL22169: It was obvious they were at a restaurant…

Lu11Bran: what wine does one serve with long pork? a hearty burgandy?

AGplusone:

ddavitt: chianti?

AGplusone: only with fava beans

BPRAL22169: And fava beans.

BPRAL22169: Exactly.

ddavitt: How did H make it seem so nice in SIASL?

BPRAL22169: Did the bridge symbolism detract from what was going on, for anyone?

Lu11Bran: Bill and I can bore you for hours about that

ddavitt: That man could sell snowballs to Eskimos

AGplusone: That’s why I think btw, Andy, that the development in theme occurred almost immediately.

BPRAL22169: Andy and I can bore you for hours about anything.

ddavitt: Hey, I got the book; I’m a fan

AGplusone: I didn’t find it so. I played bridge then. Everyone did.

ddavitt: Wasn’t one of the titles a bridge one?

AGplusone: We all read Goren. yes, Grand Slam

ddavitt: I was totally lost with the bridge game

BPRAL22169: Yay. Yes — it was originally Grand slam

ddavitt: I can play it now but not at a level where I can see what’s going on

AGplusone: three grand slams …. :-)

ddavitt: In their game

BPRAL22169: I think it’s like the chess game in Through the Looking glass — it doesn’t matter if you don’t follow it.

ddavitt: True

ddavitt: It adds background

AGplusone: typical what you did after dinner, unless you were into wife-swapping

BPRAL22169: And interestingly, Bridge is a game of partners and partnerships — and the book is about partners, too, isn’t it.

ddavitt: And swapping them

AGplusone: that could come after the bridge game

ddavitt: Can we equate the characters to cards?

ddavitt: Hugh is king

BPRAL22169: Which is another thing you can do at the end of a rubber. . . (whistling, not going there)

ddavitt: Ooh, that’s so tempting to play with…

AGplusone: Duke is the deuce of clubs, Joseph is the black knave …

ddavitt: That could work…

Lu11Bran: why is it always called “wife-swapping” – why not “husband swapping” or ….. and here I thought this was a family chat

ddavitt: But Duke is a jack

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Lu11Bran: Duke is a jerk

AGplusone: naw … false Jack

ddavitt: It’s a Heinlein chat…

Dehede011: Howdy

AGplusone: trumped

ddavitt: Hi Ron

BPRAL22169: Yo

Dehede011: Hi Jane, Hi all.

ddavitt: Who is Joker? ponse?

DavidWrightSr: Revolving Rons

BPRAL22169: We’re working on Bridge game symbolism in Farnham’s Freehold at the moment.

Lu11Bran:me—->afh

BPRAL22169: On the Silver shores of Gitchigumie

Lu11Bran: Did I just call someone by a wrong name?

Lu11Bran: first name, that is?

AGplusone: Don’t think so …

AGplusone: David is me, and David is David Wright too

Lu11Bran: *Whew!* Thought I made a mistake (I should know better!)

BPRAL22169: You can be Andy “David” Thornton

AGplusone: If you pay the franchise fee.

Lu11Bran: And you can be Bill “David” Patterson

Lu11Bran: And Jane “David” Davitt

BPRAL22169: We’re all Davids on this bus.

AGplusone: married to David Davitt

pakgwei: *hideing*

BPRAL22169: Of course,she’s already got a David Davitt.

BPRAL22169: ok, David.

AGplusone: Wadda we talk about in two weeks?

DavidWrightSr: BTW, I sent an invite to Connie Willis, but haven’t received any response.

Lu11Bran: People, I’ve got to get-up and drive 800 miles or so tomorrow so I’ve got to go

Lu11Bran: thank you for an enjoyable evening

AGplusone: okay, Andy, see you … 800 miles is fun.

Lu11Bran: of the mild sort

AGplusone: Not something I’d necessarily do for fun anymore, but fun

BPRAL22169: Have fun. I have no idea what’s in store for us in 2 weeks.

AGplusone: How ’bout Kondo?

Lu11Bran: bye all *poof*

Lu11Bran has left the room.

BPRAL22169: It would be good to have another writer.

AGplusone: but it was great to have a topic to talk about …

AGplusone: even if we drifted a bit

DavidWrightSr: This was a lot more on-topic than the last one.

BPRAL22169: True.

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: I feel I has done my duty.

BPRAL22169: I’m going to check out afh and mail and then sign off. ‘Night, gents.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

pakgwei: nite

pakgwei has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night. Chet.

AGplusone: right :-)

DavidWrightSr: See ya later.

Log officially closed 11:50 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday Sept 15, 2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday Sept 15, 2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

Click Here to Return to Index

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

maikoshT has entered the room.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will. Nobody here yet, but me and my alter ego.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t know if we will have many tonight. Jane is going to be late.

geeairmoe2: I’d noticed Jane’s post that she would be late and might need someone to open things up.

geeairmoe2: I’v got a few internet-related tasks to clean up. I’ll check back.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. I’m working on something too.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Will, David.

DavidWrightSr: Hi David.

AGplusone: crummy week, eh?

DavidWrightSr: Just told Ginny and Will that I have to be AFK for a while.

DavidWrightSr: I have to take my wife to get something to eat.

geeairmoe2: Hello.

AGplusone: Enjoy it.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll leave both of my copies running to get the log. Yes a very crummy week.

DavidWrightSr: Understatement of the century.

DavidWrightSr: See you later

AGplusone: see ya!

AGplusone: The century’s young.

geeairmoe2: Just finishing up some other internet tasks, so if I don’t answer, don’t be alarmed.

AGplusone: I won’t … sipping my wake-up tea.

geeairmoe2: I annoyed some people on Sff.Net’s group about the bombing.

AGplusone: who?

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny!

geeairmoe2: Hello, m’am.

SAcademy: Good evening everyone. David W. had to take his wife out to dinner.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hello everyone.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane.

geeairmoe2: Hi, Jane.

SAcademy: Hi, Jane.

ddavitt: I am here until L wakes up and demands food; David is at work.

ddavitt: Are you feeling better David S?

SAcademy: I willlhave to leave soon, have a very sore throat.

ddavitt: Sorry to hear that Ginny

AGplusone: better when I’m awake. How’s your flu, Ginny … just what I was about to ask

geeairmoe2: Sorry to hear that. Gargle salty water.

ddavitt: Hot whisky toddy with lots of honey

SAcademy: That’s a thought! Haven’t tried that yet.

ddavitt: It tastes nicer than salt water too :-)

geeairmoe2: It is nasty, but it always works for me.

ddavitt: I have heard that too Will

AGplusone: The whisky tastes better too.

geeairmoe2: As a non-drinker I can’t comment on the other.

AGplusone: saltwater tastes yucky

ddavitt: It’s medicinal Will

AGplusone: clears the sinuses

geeairmoe2: Not saltwater, salty water. A teaspoon or two in warm water.

ddavitt: Did you all get chance to read the log from Thursday?

AGplusone: Yes

ddavitt: Good.

geeairmoe2: Nope.

ddavitt: bad:-)

WJaKe has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘change’ doesn’t mean we read it, however. Hi, Jake

AGplusone: chance

geeairmoe2: Been researching how the bombing fits into Armegeddon in Revelations.

ddavitt: Never mind; if we go over same ground it doesn’t matter. Hi there

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron

ddavitt: Hi again Denv

DenvToday: Greetings everybody!

DenvToday: Hello :-)

AGplusone: Have to read Steve’s account in Job:ACOJ

AGplusone: 😉

ddavitt: Is everyone ready to start the chat?

AGplusone: I was always intrigued when Alec meets up with them in Heaven and Steve gives that little hint of an a

AGplusone: account

DJedPar has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Denis

ddavitt: Hi Denis

DenvToday: Hi Denis

DJedPar: Hi David, Hi Everybody

ddavitt: Maybe we’ll wait a bit, see if any more people drop in…

ddavitt: Or then again maybe we won’t

ddavitt: We were discussing colonisation on Thursday

ddavitt: And whetehr any of us coddled sissies could hack it any more

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Can we do without all the tech and comforts, not just for a holiday but for ever?

AGplusone: Hi Felicia

fgherman: Helllo all

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

SAcademy: Good evening Felicia.

DenvToday: Good afternoon Felicia

ddavitt: Or can we colonise now and expect to get the comfort level back up quite fast?

geeairmoe2: Humans are adaptable. No matter how high or low that comfort level is, humans adapt.

AGplusone: food rationing, no new ‘putors every year, have to make do with ’41 model Fords, gosh …

ddavitt: Could you get used to it you think?

geeairmoe2: Wheter I’d voluntarily give them up is one question. If its forced on me, I adapt.

ddavitt: I’m not sure I could

AGplusone: gas rationing

DenvToday: David, you just described Cuba.

fgherman: I sure I’d be able to adapt

AGplusone: I just described 1942-45

geeairmoe2: When its adapt or perish, you’ll find yourself capable of extraordinary feats.

fgherman: Just think how luxurious our life looks to someone from just 100 years ago

ddavitt: true..

AGplusone: [or 39-45, in Britain]

AGplusone: Do you think the cubanos under Castro are pioneering spirit tough, Ron?

ddavitt: brb

DenvToday: I think they must be hardy just to make it from day to day. So in a sense, perhaps. But having the..

fgherman: I think the Cuban people are capable of extraordinary accomplishments, just like most other humans

AGplusone: Adaptable, resolute, patriotic

DenvToday: …pioneering spirit suggest some free will in the mater.

AGplusone: agreed

DenvToday: Most Cubans would get out if they could.

AGplusone: altho those driven from a society can be pioneers. the pilgrims were driven out

DenvToday: Good point. But still, they had a choice of places to go.

fgherman: They don’t have alot of choice in the matter, though

DenvToday: Cubans have no choice.

AGplusone: many of those who left the south, ca. 1865, left because they had ‘nothing’ left

AGplusone: or felt that way

geeairmoe2: “Pioneering Spirit” shows a mental requirement is needed. Ya got to WANT it.

fgherman: I’ve lost track of how many countries the Jews have been kicked out of.

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: M y grandparents got tired of pogroms

AGplusone: The Irish greatgrandparents got tired of starving.

geeairmoe2: In ‘normal’ society you can cruise along whether you want it or not.

DenvToday: Interesting note: More Jews were summarily expelled from Arab countries after the founding of…

AGplusone: The Italian grandfather left because there waa a feud back home that would have

AGplusone: killed him had he returned.

DenvToday: …Israel than there were Arabs who lost their homes in the new state of Israel.

DenvToday: All all Arabs were invited to stay in Israel.

fgherman: And the Arabs were asked to stay

AGplusone: And some did.

DenvToday: They left to consolidate, then attack.

AGplusone: A friend of ours is Druse.

AGplusone: She left last year with her family. Said it was safe anymore.

geeairmoe2: I’m half-need, half-desire. Looking for a better life for one set of anschestors …

geeairmoe2: … escaping religious persecution from the other.

AGplusone: I think the Cubanos probably have been weeded a bit … have some of the pioneer spirit, on both sides

AGplusone: of the Miami straits.

DenvToday: I never cease to admire the Cubans who take to those leaky rafts to come here.

fgherman: Even with all the hardship involved, I don’t think there isn’t a one of us who wouldn’t help colonize

DenvToday: I know in my heart I would never have that kind of courage.

fgherman: space if we were allowed to go.

AGplusone: Odd, though, isn’t it, the ones like the half of the Gonzalez family who stay …

DenvToday: Felicia, true. lol

AGplusone: because it’s their home.

AGplusone: The Reformers who stayed and fought the Cavaliers eventually.

AGplusone: “Roundheads” a generation or two later.

SAcademy: I heard an American ambassador today talking abaout what WE have done to others in the way of bombing

AGplusone: Which one?

fgherman: Remember, America was settled by folks who cut and run rather than stay and fight.

SAcademy: Can’t remember his name.

geeairmoe2: Heard that, too. Don’t know which ambassador it was.

DenvToday: Felicia, stay and fight who? There was no organized resistance. Cromwell was a generation later.

SAcademy: We’ve been bombing indiscriminately all over the globe.

geeairmoe2: Isn’t the State Department types always the last to get on board?

AGplusone: Maybe his argument was ‘bombing’ doesn’t solve anything. The only way you do it, is put troops

AGplusone: on the ground, and settle it finally.

fgherman: The Church of England, for example, with the Pilgrims

AGplusone: Do the Germans or the Japanese hate us today because we finally settled their hash

AGplusone: by invading and then occuping them for, in Germany’s case, nearly a half century

fgherman: Maybe we should settle France’s hash; they hate us

SAcademy: I doubt that they all love us.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: in Japan’s for (if you count Okinawa) still that time too.

fgherman: I’m with Machiavelli on this one: better to be feared than loved.

AGplusone: I agree …

DenvToday: Speaking of Japan…have any of you read Clancy’s Debt of Honor?

geeairmoe2: Lived in Japan 70-73 and the older Japaneese still walked on eggshells around Americans.

AGplusone: Yes., of course.

AGplusone: Nice prediction, eh?

DenvToday: It was eerie.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin’ Joel.

DenvToday: Hi Joel

fgherman: Hi sweetie

joelrmpls: Hi, all.

AGplusone: “sweetie”? You haven’t been reading his posts! Nuclear warmonger!

SAcademy: Hello, Joel

geeairmoe2: Hello recent arrivals.

AGplusone: 😀

fgherman: You don’t have to sleep with him

fgherman: :-)

AGplusone: some of us are lucky!

fgherman: besides, I mostly agree with him

AGplusone: The pioneering spirit leds to the same sort of spirit that some fear is lacking

geeairmoe2: Being a pioneer does take a certain kind of confident arrogance.

AGplusone: today in the polulace if we’re to settle the ‘terrorist’ hash.

DenvToday: I have the pioneering spirit in abundance. What I lack is tolerance for any sort of discomfort.

geeairmoe2: The “Nothing can stop me” attitude.

DenvToday: Or danger.

AGplusone: leads

fgherman: We haven’t been tested yet; you just watch

AGplusone: I listened to a cautionary program on PBS last night … instant gratification won’t cut it

WJaKe: Where on Earth is there to be a pioneer anymore?

AGplusone: was the point Moyer and others tried to make.

DenvToday: I’d be happy to pioneer any place with Good cigars and a Sizzler.

AGplusone: No surgical strikes will solve what’s facing us.

DenvToday: David, I fear you’re right.

AGplusone: The spirit of doing without new car models, putting up with rationing, etc., is what we need to know

AGplusone: we’re going to face.

AGplusone: Same spirit as the pioneers.

AGplusone: Full mobilization …

WJaKe: I think you’re wrong. We have more economic backbone now then we had in WWII

AGplusone: war footing. No “great society” and war at the same time.

DenvToday: What good would that do? Sending 20 divisions to Afghanistan wouldn’t solve a thing.

AGplusone: Maybe it won’t take 1939-45, Jake, but you cannot expect guns and butter to work.

DenvToday: We need to bully governments into handing over the terrorists.

geeairmoe2: I’ve been waiting for some pundits on TV to talk about an economic war …

AGplusone: How do you know, Denv. Because the Russians couldn’t.

AGplusone: ?

geeairmoe2: … everyone seems to concentrate on military options.

AGplusone: The Russians had to face a guerrilla war, and no guerrilla war has ever succeeded without outside supp

WJaKe: Because we don’t need the kind and quantity of guns needed in the past

geeairmoe2: Cutting off their funds should be a first, bloodless option.

AGplusone: ort, which the Afghanstanis had. From us, and bin Laden.

joelrmpls: Yup; I sure am concentrating on military options, as a way of motivating proper political ones.

WJaKe: THis will be a covert “war”, most likely, as there is no country to invade.

joelrmpls: Among other things.

joelrmpls: And, yes, I’m a nuclear warmonger.

AGplusone: Only way we wouldn’t need the kind and quanities of arms and troops on the ground is if we used

geeairmoe2: I’d first option in a ‘dinosuar’, so that wavering allies could see what an accidental tail swipe …

AGplusone: the nuclear or ABC options.

geeairmoe2: … could do to them.

AGplusone: That’s unacceptible for too many.

joelrmpls: I don’t come to that casually, but in other places — not here — the option is apparently too icky…

DenvToday: We don’t need to bomb population centers. We inform harboring governments that they will hand over…

joelrmpls: … to discuss, and anybody who would is subhuman.

AGplusone: Because of the collateral effects.

geeairmoe2: Opps, sorry for that fallout. Who’s side are you on again?

WJaKe: And you still don’t know where to drop the A-bomb!

DenvToday: …the terrorists. They can do this. If they don’t, we start killing from the top up. We start…

joelrmpls: I could give you six targets, right now,

WJake.

DenvToday: …shooting presidents. Then Vice-presidents…then generals. Down the line.

DenvToday: top down, I meant.

WJaKe: But are you sure you will hit terrorists there?

AGplusone: I disagree about a covert war. I think the only way to win is occupy the ground.

joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely — if you include “military and governmental headquarters of states that …

fgherman: I wonder what Robert would have said?

AGplusone: Cf. Starship Troopers.

joelrmpls: … have sponsored terrorism that has resulted in the deaths of US citizens.”

AGplusone: “Navy types” always think differently, and they’re wrong.

geeairmoe2: Since the Gulf too many people can’t give up on the dream of a ‘clean’ war.

joelrmpls: Remember: this was a response to the US involvement in the Gulf War.

AGplusone: Johnson and Nixon thought “bomb Hanoi” or “bomb Cambodia” would win. They were wrong.

WJaKe: The Gulf War was too easy because it was too limited.

WJaKe: We won the battle without resolving the conflict.

DenvToday: I’m disturbed by the casual acceptance that police state restrictions on all of our lives will be…

DenvToday: …necessary. Nobody seems outraged by that.

AGplusone: There were no ‘police state’ restrictions during WW2.

WJaKe: what sort of restrictions do you refer to? Let’s talk specifics.

joelrmpls: And that’s pretty much what’s likely to happen, now — at most, a restricted invasion of Afghanistan..

geeairmoe2: Terrorists need to look into the eyes of the soldiers who put the bullet into their foreheads.

fgherman: I know that a large number of us are concerned by that.

DenvToday: To protect our airplanes, it’s very simple. Allow passengers to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

joelrmpls: … and more talk about a “war on terrorism”, that’ll be about as effective as the “war on drugs.”

AGplusone: The folk would lived in GBritain or the US were appalled when they found out what ‘police state’

joelrmpls: But, let’s say that we can wave a wand and make suicidal hijacking bombings impossible. Wave it. ok:

AGplusone: meant is eastern Europe under the communists, or in Germany, after the war, under the Nazis

joelrmpls: Do you think we’ve ended terrorism against the US?

AGplusone: “in” eastern Europe

AGplusone: No.

joelrmpls: What happens when, just to pick an example, OSB’s buddies, still at loose — or Arafat’s — hijack…

WJaKe: No, we wouldn’t.

AGplusone: The only way to “end” terrorism is deny it a refuge … north of the Yalu River

joelrmpls: …a gasoline tanker, drive it to the Mall of America, where they meet their friends with the …

geeairmoe2: A lot of me hopes we ended it, but most of me fears it’ll get worse before it gets better.

joelrmpls: McVeigh-style bombs.

AGplusone: and the only way you end the refuge is occupy it.

AGplusone: Not bomb it.

WJaKe: so now we need to occupy China?

joelrmpls: I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I don’t think that there would have been any refuge in, say,

AGplusone: Not fighting China, yet

joelrmpls: Tokyo if Harry Truman had decided to blow it up.

WJaKe: You’re headed that way aren’t you? north of the Yalu River?

geeairmoe2: One commentator mentioned some Europeans marvel at how we have public trash cans.

joelrmpls: From the Puppet Masters: “We’re going to have to learn to live with this horror.”

AGplusone: Today we’re fighting Southwest Asian refuges

joelrmpls: The Israelis have, for years.

AGplusone: Figuratively speaking, Jake, yes.

WJaKe: I thought we were fighting Mid-Eastern ex-patriates.

AGplusone: Land at Haiffa, and proceed east.

geeairmoe2: The Phillipines have a Islamic terrorist problem, too.

joelrmpls: I think that the PA component of the problem is the easiest to handle, from the US POV.

AGplusone: then solve it in its time

WJaKe: PA?

AGplusone: if the Filipinos cannot handle it

joelrmpls: How about the Bekaa? Syria? the Emirates? Libya? Sudan? Cuba?

DenvToday: Pennsylvania. We wipe out Pennsylvania.

fgherman: Palestinian “Authority”

DenvToday: Oh.

joelrmpls: PA = “Palestinian Authority” Arafat’s police state.

geeairmoe2: Someone expert, quiote confident, said Isreal can handle the PA and Hammas …

WJaKe: But I thought Arafat was appaled at errorism, denounced it in every way!

geeairmoe2: … if the US would allow them.

WJaKe: er, terrorism.

joelrmpls: But remember, unless we restrict ourselves to Al Quiada, we’re talking about a dozen states.

AGplusone: Coming back from Philadelphia, considering the weather, maybe we should wipe out Pennsylvania …

AGplusone: while we’re at it. 😉

fgherman: Take a lot of pesky relatives of mine

joelrmpls: As to Arafat being “appalled” about terrorism, actions speak louder than words, and he’s deliberately

AGplusone: Mine too

geeairmoe2: There was a claim that bin Laden had cells in 55 countries. Some said 34.

joelrmpls: let known terrorists out of his jails.

joelrmpls: Cells are one thing — I’m just talking about national entities that support Al Quaida. There’s…

AGplusone: So, we tell 34 countries, stamp them out or we’re coming in to stamp them out for you, or with you.

joelrmpls: … at least Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Sudan.

AGplusone: I think the national entities are pretty easy to identify.

joelrmpls: And by “support”, I don’t mean just “cheer on.”

WJaKe: Again, if you can find these cells.

AGplusone: That means remove the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and the Sudan, etc., and replace them

AGplusone: with Adenhauers.

joelrmpls: Again: it’s not the cells. We, manifestly, have an Al Quiada cell in Minnesota.

joelrmpls: Or, at least, had.

WJaKe: So replace the govt. of Minnesota?

joelrmpls: But I think it’s fair to say that was without the support of the government of Minnesota.

AGplusone: If that means occupation, for the fifty years we’ve had NATO in Germany, then so be it.

DenvToday: Joel, I don’t think the U.S. has the knowledge–or the will–to really attack terrorist groups.

joelrmpls: WJake, if you insist on refusing to acknowledge the difference between hidden terrorist cells…

geeairmoe2: The Russians never had mid-east terrorist problems. They had a unique solution…

WJaKe: :-DYeah, but I had to take at poke at Gov. The Mind

joelrmpls: … and states that support terrorist organizations, there’s really nothing we can talk about.

DenvToday: We’ll give lip service, but that’s all. Or we might wipe out one branch of the tree.

geeairmoe2: … when a Russian was kidnapped, the next day the kidnappers received the …

AGplusone: Clancy makes that point, Gee

geeairmoe2: … body part of a close relative and a note suggesting many future deliveries.

ddavitt: sorry folks; hi to those who arrived after I left to feed the baby. I will have to go for good as

AGplusone: and I agree.

WJaKe: I do acknowledge the difference. That is what I see as the root problem, finding the hidden cells!

joelrmpls: It wasn’t the next day; it took weeks, and at least one of the packages they sent included the body…

fgherman: Bye Jane

ddavitt: David is not yet back and I need to start cooking.

joelrmpls: …parts of an infant girl.

ddavitt: Night.

DenvToday: Bye Jane

joelrmpls: Bye, Jane.

AGplusone: bye

geeairmoe2: Take care, Jane.

WJaKe: bye Jane

ddavitt has left the room.

joelrmpls: WJake, could you do something about that awful yellow color of your name?

DenvToday: The Israelis know. If we use Mossad, it could be done.

WJaKe: I don’t know, it’s red on my screen

DenvToday: We wouldn’t even have to do it ourselves. All we would have to do is give the Israelis the go-ahead.

AGplusone: The problem is the (now it’s blue, Jake)

fgherman: Your own name always shows up in red

joelrmpls: The issue of “extinguishing terrorist cells” <> “extinguishing the governments that support them”

geeairmoe2: I’m not sure Body Part Parcel Post would work with these guys, though.

AGplusone: 5 o’clock news.

joelrmpls: I’m not advocating that; I’m just pointing out that’s what they did.

geeairmoe2: It would be worth a try.

joelrmpls: As to the Mossad, I’m not sure that they have accurate targetting information about terrorist…

WJaKe: I know joel, I agree with you on that, cells and govts.

joelrmpls: …organizations in, say, Baghdad.

AGplusone: Maybe not. Joel and Clancy simply pointed out how the Russians made the targeting of Americans prefer-

AGplusone: able to targeting Russians.

joelrmpls: Of course it’s preferable — and we do all realize that OSB could have gotten a higher bodycount…

BPRAL22169: It seems to me if we could choke off bin Ladin’s funding source — Hussein — the problem reduces

BPRAL22169: in size instantly.

joelrmpls: … with just one plane, don’t we?

joelrmpls: Funding, political support, all of that, sure.

AGplusone: Exactly, or his funding from Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or Syria

geeairmoe2: Cut off his money, isolate known associates.

BPRAL22169: The consensus seems to be Hussein is the principal source.

AGplusone: that means destablilize those governments, and replace them

WJaKe: I thought OSB had inherited money?

AGplusone: Hussein gets his money from all those sources.

BPRAL22169: We don’t have a particularly good record at placing puppet governments.

fgherman: Only 330 million

WJaKe: Or has burned up the several hundred million dollars mentioned/

AGplusone: Either they stop their subjects. Sure we do. Everyone forgets we replaced Hitler and Tojo

joelrmpls: … but the Emirates are major contributors, too. You don’t block a faucet with a fork.

geeairmoe2: Weren’t we able to freeze a lot of Iranian assests during the hostage holding?

AGplusone: rather successfully.

AGplusone: We did that by all out war on those governments and by occupying the ground’

BPRAL22169: I rther thought Tojo reigned until his death.

joelrmpls: We did, but only after unconditional surrender, and a commitment to military occupation.

AGplusone: Why did he die, Bill.

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: And we did not replace Hitler — we accepted an existing government in place.

geeairmoe2: It goes directly to how willing are we to hold them to “You’re either for us, or against us.” …

joelrmpls: Al Quaida is funded by, at least in part, the Emirates. Note that nobody is talking about action….

joelrmpls: …. against them.

BPRAL22169: You are right about Tojo — I was thinking Hirohito.

DenvToday: Joel, there are many methods to stamp out terrorism. Some are better than others, but the essential..

geeairmoe2: … what happens when an Afghani mother’s starving baby shows up all over TV.

DenvToday: …question is this: Does the U.S. have the will to actually do it? To get down and dirty?

AGplusone: What happened that enabled us to replace Hitler.

joelrmpls: Denv: Yup.

BPRAL22169: But assassinating a chief of staff is not the same as placing a puppet government.

AGplusone: We didn’t accept the existing government, what remained after Hitler, we immediately put it on trial

AGplusone: and hanged most of it.

DenvToday: I hope you’re right.

joelrmpls: Puppet governments are easy to do — after unconditional surrender. Before, no.

joelrmpls: We actually hanged very, very little of it.

AGplusone: After we accepted its surrender.

joelrmpls: Take a look at the stats at Nuremberg sentences, sometime.

AGplusone: Well, now, what exactly happened to the guy who surrendered?

BPRAL22169: Doenitz?

AGplusone: Yes.

joelrmpls: He got off. Not the worse call ever made.

BPRAL22169: I think he had a short sentence.

DenvToday: Doenitz got ten years

BPRAL22169: I don’t remember the specifics of the Nuremberg verdicts any more.

AGplusone: that took him out of action, didn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Except a few — Hess, Goering, etc.

joelrmpls: Take a look — it might be very instructive, after you get past the few who were hanged.

fgherman: Beats hanging, though

AGplusone: We didn’t exactly accept their government, did we?

joelrmpls: I’m in favor of giving Arafat a suspended sentence.

fgherman: Amen

AGplusone: Yes, we know, Joel.

geeairmoe2: I worry about the will of our MTV watching, video-game playing soldiers …

DenvToday: Suspended over a gibbet?

geeairmoe2: … will the stick it out.

BPRAL22169: Yes, we accepted the government and set up civil elections, with a military occupation interim

AGplusone: for how long?

joelrmpls: I’m not worried about the will of the military — I am worried about the will of the US govt, and…

joelrmpls: … the US population.

DenvToday: Joel, my point exactly.

BPRAL22169: I dont recall, exactly — it was still going on when Patton died.

geeairmoe2: All of it, agreed.

AGplusone: In 1961 when I got there it was still an occupation, whether we recognized Konrad or not

BPRAL22169: “Denazification”

joelrmpls: … and note how easily “denazification” was suspended, and for whom.

AGplusone: Whether we let Konrad have a little army or not

DenvToday: Pragmatism wins every time over noble philosophies.

DenvToday: That sounds cynical, but it’s true.

joelrmpls: If there’s a land war, the numbers of US servicemen coming home in bodybags will be huge.

WJaKe has left the room.

AGplusone: Today, the Seventh Army is still on the ground over there …

fgherman: Ginny, you’ve lived through something like this before; do you think we have what it takes?

joelrmpls: Note that the leaders are talking in the vaguest generalities, and even qualifying those.

joelrmpls: See Wolfowitz’s “clarification” yesterday.

AGplusone: Will they really? Didn’t Hackman predict 10,000 casualties in Irag, Joel?

DenvToday: Yep. Lots of qualifying and revising going on today.

SAcademy: Sorry, I don’t knnow whether we do have it any more Felicia.

AGplusone: yet the “Republican Guard” melted, didn’t it?

DenvToday: I felt something of what we had then last week when I watched Band of Brothers. I went and looked…

joelrmpls: Dupuy predicted 300, mostly from friendly fire.

DenvToday: …at my father’s Bronze Star. Something I hadn’t done in years.

AGplusone: Hitler and Tojo both had a dedicated populance on their side. Gott Mit Uns!

AGplusone: Banzai!

joelrmpls: One of the reasons that I favor the nuclear option is that I don’t think we have it.

AGplusone: Does bin Ladin have that?

AGplusone: Does Hussein have that?

joelrmpls: I do think the only way we can win, for a sufficiently serious value of “win”, is …

fgherman: He doesn’t need it

joelrmpls: …via a shortcut.

geeairmoe2: I worry about our current generation because the WWII generation were hardened by …

AGplusone: Of course, not, in a terrorist war … but I’m not talking about fighting a terrorist war.

geeairmoe2: … the depression. The cureent generation’s had no ‘hardening’.

AGplusone: Agree, Will.

AGplusone: But is it really different?

DenvToday: Interesting side note: When we declared war on Japan, we didn’t declare war on a nation.

geeairmoe2: They don’t understand deprivation and sacrifice.

DenvToday: We declared war on one man–the Emporer.

AGplusone: That’s the problem.

DenvToday: Emperor. Sorry.

joelrmpls: More depressing news: note how the Admin is lauding the Pakistanis, despite….

joelrmpls: ….them having rejected the most important US demand.

AGplusone: Is that today? I haven’t watched the news today.

joelrmpls: Yup — they’ve made it clear that they’ll accept overflights, only. No US troops on…

joelrmpls: …Pakistani soil.

AGplusone: What has Powell said? Or is it ‘administration’ voices only?

joelrmpls: State is dancing around whether or not we ever asked for that.

DenvToday: Yep Joel. I expected that.

geeairmoe2: We should remind of where we could stand should trouble with India crops up again.

joelrmpls: Oh, I think that we should abandon neutrality in India/Pakistan.

fgherman: “Go India”

joelrmpls: Yup.

joelrmpls: They’ve been living with this terror more than we have.

joelrmpls: If the Indians decide they need to take out Pakistani nuclear facilities, I think…

DenvToday: “I refuse to be impartial between the fire and the fire brigade.” – W.S. Churchill

joelrmpls: … we ought to provide targetting information, and air cover.

AGplusone: Well, India has its own problems regarding tolerance of other religions.

joelrmpls: I’m not saying that India is perfect — quite the contrary. What I am saying is that…

AGplusone: I think the ‘administration’ better get told by its own citizenry that they better stop dancing

joelrmpls: …we need to be much more generous about peccadilloes in our allies than we …

joelrmpls: …are about virtues in our enemies.

geeairmoe2: We ought to adopt that arab concept, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

joelrmpls: Cuba, for example, has nearly 100% literacy. I think that’s a good thing.

AGplusone: And then turn our armies on them after we finish off the radical Islamites, like Patton wanted, Joel?

joelrmpls: But are we serious about stopping terrorism? Or just AlQuida?

DenvToday: Joel, that was true of Nazi Germany as well.

joelrmpls: On India?

geeairmoe2: To get most of the world onboard, they may demand ‘come help get our terrorists, too’.

joelrmpls: See “Solution Unsatisfactory”.

AGplusone: See, To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

fgherman: And what’s wrong with that?

AGplusone: President Patton

joelrmpls: We have the opposite of a creeping mission right now. We have the . . .

joelrmpls: … constantly shrinking mission.

joelrmpls: Which will work only if it’s sufficiently instructive.

geeairmoe2: Be longer and bloodier to solve everyone’s problem, but worht it to our children. Goes back …

joelrmpls: see http://www.jerrypournelle.com

AGplusone: I think we should simply disestablish every government that sponsors terrorism against us.

fgherman: The thing that bothers me, is that no one really cared until someone other than Jews were being killed

geeairmoe2: … to : do we have the guts to stick out to the end.

joelrmpls: I’m with you on that — but note how many governments we have to disestablish…

joelrmpls: …by that principle.

AGplusone: And by disestablish I mean land troops on their soil and replace them.

joelrmpls: We don’t have a tenth the troops needed to occupy them, not with full mobilization.

AGplusone: As I said, land at Haiffa and turn east.

AGplusone: Really?

geeairmoe2: We had a president the last 8 years kissing Arab rear and blocking Israel in an …

geeairmoe2: attempt to get himself a Peace Prize.

AGplusone: We had enough troops in 45

joelrmpls: And that’s forgetting, for a moment, the nontrivial problem of conquering them.

AGplusone: And our population was half that, and our armed forces were reduced.

joelrmpls: We had enough troops in 1945, to — with the help of our allies — occupy two non-resisting

joelrmpls: countries.

AGplusone: Well, who’s going to help them resist?

joelrmpls: Both of which had been thoroughly conquered.

AGplusone: that’s what I’m proposing

geeairmoe2: I worry about getting prepared. I live next to Ft. Hood, largest military base in the world …

geeairmoe2: … and training would be two, three days a week because of lack of equipment.

joelrmpls: I know you are.

AGplusone: Yes, just like 1940 and 41.

geeairmoe2: Soldiers had nothing substantive to do the rest of the time.

AGplusone: I’m talking full mobilization.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

joelrmpls: Okay, how many divisions do we need to conquer, at a minimum, the following list:

AGplusone: Read the stories about training in 40 and 41 some day. Flour sacks, broomsticks, trucks labeled “tank”

AGplusone: 40 or 50

joelrmpls: Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Emirates, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Cuba and Libya?

AGplusone: Leave Cuba out. We don’t need to worry about them.

joelrmpls: Okay.

AGplusone: One peep out of you and thermonuclear war.

joelrmpls: I’ll even throw out Sudan, just to be generous.

AGplusone: Green glass covers Cuba

geeairmoe2: I go back to suggest we had a better, more hardened pool of men for combat in 41 than today.

AGplusone: Maybe so, but there are a few good men around who can harden.

fgherman: No, we’ve got Gulf War veterans

AGplusone: Doesn’t matter. They’re good men.

joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely — but we had more blooded officers available in Korea. Look at all the retreads…

joelrmpls: HST called up.

AGplusone: They know what can be done.

AGplusone: We have to have a Kaserine Pass.

joelrmpls: I’m not doubting their courage, or their professionalism. I am doubting the numbers.

geeairmoe2: I hope so, but I see everyday the idiots we have in the Army.

AGplusone: That is what hardens.

AGplusone: The idiots get shaken out.

joelrmpls: Let’s just look at Syria — probably one of the easier places to conquer.

AGplusone: No, let’s let the military look at Syria. That’s what they’re paid for.

geeairmoe2: The everyday grunts? Scary. But then, its only the idiots that make the news here.

geeairmoe2: I just may be seeing that black spot and forgetting the big, white paper its on.

joelrmpls: Okay; if you don’t want to do the thought experiment, I won’t force you. :-)

AGplusone: They’ll do the thought experiment if we tell them to.

AGplusone: That’s their job.

AGplusone: But we have to have the will to tell them and to follow through.

joelrmpls: Sure, they will. But it’ll still take n number of soldiers to conquer a country of m millions.

fgherman: Hear, hear

AGplusone: That’s what we’re talking about “pioneer spirit”

joelrmpls: What if m < our total possible mobilization?

joelrmpls: Err, make that “what if n < our total possible mobilization”?

geeairmoe2: Its just that if what we have to use is what I’ve seen at Ft. Hood, it might be a high number.

AGplusone: We cannot have guns and butter ….

joelrmpls: Agreed.

geeairmoe2: Then again, the sight of that rubble in NYC might be the hardening we’ve lacked.

AGplusone: We can field eight armored division and 22 infantry divisions in a year if we do it.

joelrmpls: But let’s assume that we’re willing to lower our enlistment standards, and include, say, 47-year old

joelrmpls: … fat guys with diabetes.

AGplusone: running Remingtons, sure

geeairmoe2: How tied in is the will the fight with the numbers needed.

fgherman: And their wives

joelrmpls: I’ll accept your numbers on the divisions — but how many did the Nazis have in the Balkans, alone?

AGplusone: it’s the will … I don’t hear day that will live in infamy … I don’t hear declarations of war.

joelrmpls: Me, neither.

AGplusone: DivisionsWW 2 have nothing to do with Divisions today

joelrmpls: Except from Bob Barr, may his tribe increase.

geeairmoe2: Maybe the paranoia about the various citizen militias will drop a little.

joelrmpls: Okay — how many of those thirty divisions do you think we need for Afghanistan, alone?

AGplusone: Almost as bad as armor battalions against one MI

AGplusone: All of them.

AGplusone: Clancy argues in his one recent Bear and whatever it was, that an Armor Division is sufficient today

joelrmpls: Which means, therefore, that we don’t have enough for the other countries that need…

AGplusone: to do what at least a Corps did in WW 2

joelrmpls: … the same attention.

joelrmpls: Oh, in terms of firepower vs. an enemy military, sure.

AGplusone: Not planning to land in Afghanistan first, Joel. First, as I said, you land at Haiffa.

geeairmoe2: Have we totally abandoned the ‘war on two fronts’ strategy?

AGplusone: And you clean out North Africa.

joelrmpls: Better watch out — the natives will be throwing chocolate bars to the soldiers. :-)

AGplusone: Then you move on …

geeairmoe2: In terms of prepardedness.

fgherman: lol

fgherman: Kosher ones

AGplusone: If the Russians want to join the fun and come in through the north, no one’s going to say No.

joelrmpls: (Although I think Haifa would be suboptimal; Gaza could be cleared for the necessary…

joelrmpls: …facilities by the time the ships arrived.

AGplusone: Haiffa is figuerative

joelrmpls: I know. :-)

fgherman: Ahh, 2 birds with one stone.

AGplusone: The point is: you clean out the area

joelrmpls: But I am trying to get a picture for how you think that the area *might* be cleaned out…

AGplusone: Stop off in Bagdad on the way

joelrmpls: …by conventional forces, and how many you think it would take.

geeairmoe2: I actually so some airheads suggesting this wouldn’t have happened if we weren’t supportive of Israel.

AGplusone: Say hi to Hassein ….

geeairmoe2: Heard some airhead. My fingers are fading fast.

joelrmpls: Baghdad would be a hard nut to crack. Not impossible, mind you.

AGplusone: Was in reach in about 24 hours ten years ago.

joelrmpls: Oh, lots of airheads are suggesting this. Read rasff, if you’ve got the stomach for it.

geeairmoe2: rasff?

joelrmpls: Sure — was in reach. And with the Republican Guard as badly shattered as it was…

fgherman: rec.arts.sf.fandom

joelrmpls: …even Dupuy was saying that the casualties of a ground assault would be huge.

AGplusone: And the Republican Guard shattered pretty quickly.

AGplusone: yeah, well, lots of folk said casualties would be heavy.

joelrmpls: And that’s just Baghdad.

AGplusone: We’ll never know, will we?

AGplusone: And that took, what, 100 hours?

fgherman: If we’d been more supportive of Israel, this wouldn’t have happened.

AGplusone: and a preparatory bombardment of what, two months?

joelrmpls: Sure. But an incompetent enemy, led by a military nutcase, isn’t the worse opposition to face.

geeairmoe2: Whats the possiblity of one wellplaced nuke bringing the other countries around?

AGplusone: Who said any of the dictators are not military nutcases, all of them?

AGplusone: Do any of them have the German general staff handy?

joelrmpls: Oh, I think that the military dictator of Pakistan, for example, has apparently got some riffs.

AGplusone: Or the Imperial Japanese General Staff, hardened by conquering most of China.

joelrmpls: Thankfully, the German General Staff was handicapped by the Fuhrer.

AGplusone: We don’t need nukes, unless Pakistan is stupid enough to employ them against us.

AGplusone: And I don’t think Pakistan will last that long.

joelrmpls: And, to take another example, the Syrians have gotten a lot better since 1967, as…

joelrmpls: ….they demonstrated in 1973.

AGplusone: so ….

joelrmpls: As to the nukes, my guess is that if Kabul and Islamabad go, and the US expresses regret…

AGplusone: Are they going to stand up against us, the Brits, the French, the Israelis …

joelrmpls: …only for the necessity, that’s all it would take for surrender of all the countries on the list.

AGplusone: the Turks

SAcademy: Nite, all. Gotta run

joelrmpls: The French won’t mobilize to invade anybody — at most, they’ll send a couple of active divisions.

SAcademy has left the room.

joelrmpls: Night, ginny.

fgherman: Is having the French a help or a hindrance?

AGplusone: Maybe so … maybe not. A couple armored divisions will help. The French aren’t a great army

AGplusone: good at surrendering

joelrmpls: Oh, I dunno — they surrender real, real purty.

joelrmpls: Damn. You beat me to it.

fgherman: (lol)

AGplusone: But we can use the foreign legion

geeairmoe2: One wag said: The French don’t care if Americans are killed, but when their own people die …

AGplusone: We used it in Desert Strike

geeairmoe2: … French were among those killed in the towers.

AGplusone: Exactly, they may have to go along.

joelrmpls: Sure. But just, randomly, assuming that we can beat any army by matching numbers of divisions…

AGplusone: I don’t assume anything.

geeairmoe2: There was a real good, utterly obscene comment about the French. Wish I could remember it.

geeairmoe2: The fight with their feet and f**k with their face, I think it was.

joelrmpls: Ok. I’ll stop blueskying numbers now.

JudyjediJudy has entered the room.

AGplusone: But I don’t assume that anything Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or anyone else ….

fgherman: Welcome Judy

AGplusone: Hi, “filly”?

JudyjediJudy: Hi Felicia.

joelrmpls: That’s “Mommy” to you, young lady!

fgherman: That’s “Mom” to you.

JudyjediJudy: Okay , Okay.

geeairmoe2: I had an uncle always telling DeGaulle jokes to me because I was born in France.

joelrmpls: *whap!*

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Stephanie.

geeairmoe2: No, I’m not French. Army brat.

AGplusone: We’re fighting WW III against the middle east

geeairmoe2: My favorite joke was: DeGaulle died today. He got hit by a speedboat while trying to walk on water.

fgherman: Hi Stephanie

AGplusone: started by talking about ‘pioneer spirit’ and is it dead, and transitioned into this

JudyjediJudy: (lol)

Merfilly8: Hello all

Musiquelle26 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I read some of RAH’s letters to Campbell in Grumbles, ca. December 41, and on …

Merfilly8 has left the room.

AGplusone: and had to wonder what his feelings would be.

geeairmoe2: Same outrage, I’d guess.

geeairmoe2: Immedietly look for some way to help the war effort.

Musiquelle26 has left the room.

AGplusone: Is there really any choice in what our response should be here?

JudyjediJudy: Nope.

AGplusone: Do we just cosmetically engage in a reprisal and go back to business …. as usual, and wait for the

AGplusone: next time?

AGplusone: Or do we actually deliberately set out to replace governments that support terrorism?

geeairmoe2: I like a big, showy splash that makes any potential fence-sitters think REAL hard.

joelrmpls: I think we take a “middle course”. I think we replace the Taliban, and make some noises.

AGplusone: “Why do today, what you can put off to tomorrow?”

AGplusone: I think we’ll do that unless we continue to send outraged letters to shrub

DJedPar: Shrub?

AGplusone: Really outraged letters.

AGplusone: Bush, Jr.

joelrmpls: And I think that we institute a whole bunch of “domestic security” precautions…

joelrmpls: … that are the equivalent of closing all Sbarros in Israel.

geeairmoe2: Cut back on that ‘Shrub’ bit or you’ll get an outraged letter from me. :-)

AGplusone: aka “Dazed and confused” … I feel like a republican in 41, thinking I have to close ranks on the

AGplusone: traitor to my class.

Musiquelle26 has entered the room.

joelrmpls: I think he’s going to have to live with that, just like “Landslide Lyndon” did.

AGplusone: :-)

joelrmpls: As to what we should do, I’ve been clear on that, and don’t need to repeat it.

DJedPar: Where is Piaf when you need her?

geeairmoe2: Okay, instead of what SHOULD we do, what WILL we do?

geeairmoe2: Predictions.

joelrmpls: As I said: I think what we will do is engage in a military operation that might:

AGplusone: I hope, pray we do what we should do.

joelrmpls: a) get bin Laden

geeairmoe2: (I feel like McLughlin)

joelrmpls: b) destabilize the Taliban.

joelrmpls: and, and most c) occupy Afghanistan.

joelrmpls: I think that the other terrorist nations will, at worst, suffer some economic sanctions.

joelrmpls: And diplomatic ones, too.

fgherman: Alas

joelrmpls: “We’ve recalled our Ambassador, Mr. Assad. Now you’ll tremble!”

joelrmpls: “And today, my fellow Americans, I’ve sent a stiff note to Muamar Ghaddffi.”

AGplusone: I do not think it makes military sense to do (c) unless you remove the threats to your rear and flanks

geeairmoe2: I think that pretty well nails it. Will it be enough.

AGplusone: and that means Syria, Iraq, and probably Pakistan.

joelrmpls: Agreed. but I’m not talking about what makes military sense, but what I think we’ll do.

AGplusone: Unless there’s a coup in Pakistan.

geeairmoe2: For me, the two unknows seem to be: Do we have the will to do?

AGplusone: We cannot do that. Powell will not allow it.

geeairmoe2: And will the fence-sitters come quickly to our side.

joelrmpls: 50-50, the agreement to overflights will trigger that, assuming that we use the airspace.

AGplusone: Unless Powell gets the ducks in a row, there will be no invasion of Afghanistan …

joelrmpls: Will it be enough? Enough for what?

joelrmpls: Shut down the Arab terror network? Nah.

geeairmoe2: How much is the Syria leadership and military tied together. Can we see a coup there?

AGplusone: Overflights aren’t sufficient. We’ll either get nothing but gestures, or we’ll get:

AGplusone: “Well, now we’re going to land troops in Pakistan. Either with us or ‘agin’ us, Pakistan? What’s it

AGplusone: going to be?”

joelrmpls: Felicia just point out that I’m not the only person in the world advocating nuclear strikes.

geeairmoe2: I know Saddem and the Iraqi military are one and the same.

joelrmpls: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010914-87723680. htm

geeairmoe2: I’ll join that list.

AGplusone: I’m sure Jerry Falwell is advocating strikes too, Joel; but Jerry IIRC had his daddy’s congressman

AGplusone: pull him off the boat into Inchon Harbor.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Actually, Jerry Falwell isn’t. He explains that the problem is all the abortion-advocating lesbians.

TAWN3: Hi all

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn … welcome to the WW III in the middle east sipping and chowder club

DenvToday: Hello Tawn

DJedPar: Hi Tawn

fgherman: Hello Tawn

AGplusone: nice to have someone who’s going to have to do it with us. They call you up yet, Captain?

TAWN3: No, not yet.

TAWN3: Expect to be though.

fgherman: Anything that we can do to help?

TAWN3: Give blood.

TAWN3: :-)

fgherman: Will do

joelrmpls: Red Cross says to call this week; I checked this morning.

Musiquelle26: I was asked to come back next week, with an appointment at the blood center

TAWN3: Yes, response has ben good all over the country.

fgherman: Especially with those “cold, unfeeling New Yorkers”

joelrmpls: The US culture gives good warmth, at least in a crisis.

AGplusone: It was nice to know that the Philly Red Cross immediately shipped our blood north to NYC on 9/11

joelrmpls: That’s a virtue, but it’s not the only virtue needed, right now.

Musiquelle26: I stand among the awed that our country does work well in times of crisis.

AGplusone: Forgetting for a moment that you’re a reserve officer, what do you think the response should be, Tawn?

TAWN3: It’s our strength.

Musiquelle26: I’m too young to remember anything approaching the unity I have seen lately.

AGplusone: Is it time to put an end to terrorist governments in the Muddle East?

fgherman: It’s been along time since we’ve needed to be this united.

Musiquelle26: Muddle fits

TAWN3: In my personal opinion, yes.

geeairmoe2: The U.S. is like brothers who will wail upon one another, but God help some outsider doing it.

fgherman: Way past time

AGplusone: Yes, I mistyped, corrected, and then retyped the error.

joelrmpls: In other news, Iran has closed its border with Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: good

joelrmpls: They feel that they have enough Afghani refugees, already.

geeairmoe2: To keep out refugees.

AGplusone: Oh, yeah … the Imanis are saying: “Count us out of this!”

joelrmpls: Yup — they’re buddies, you see, but not that kind of buddies.

TAWN3: Is Afghan Shii?

AGplusone: We’ll send them arms … if we can get away with it.

TAWN3: I suppose I should know that, hadn’t thought to find out before

geeairmoe2: Whichever is more radical, Shii or Suni, that’s Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: I don’t think so

joelrmpls: Mainly Sunni; about 15% Shiites.

joelrmpls: “Religions: Sunni Muslim 84%, Shi’a Muslim 15%, other 1%” www.cia.gov

AGplusone: Shii down south in the marches that Kissinger and Bush left to hang.

TAWN3: Ok. I usually think of Persians as Shiite

AGplusone: marshes

joelrmpls: Persians are, largely, Shiite.

joelrmpls: Afghans are sort of Persian Lite.

joelrmpls: “Less cultured, more violent.”

joelrmpls: I’ve got to go make dinner now; later, all.

AGplusone: later

TAWN3: Shiites (Persians) say the Arabs broke the chain of succession with the seventh “ruler”

joelrmpls has left the room.

fgherman: Good night all. I’ve got to help him make dinner.

TAWN3: So, in a strict sense, by definition, Shiite is the more politically radical

fgherman has left the room.

Musiquelle26: On a semi-related note, what happened with the trials the Taliban was holding of those

TAWN3: But that’s different

Musiquelle26: relief workers?

JudyjediJudy: I’m leaving.

JudyjediJudy has left the room.

AGplusone: Which ones? the UN types?

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Or the indigenious citizens?

geeairmoe2: There have been veiled threats to retaliation against foriegners.

Musiquelle26: THe ones who allegedely advocated Christianity, The UN type

TAWN3: Hey Joel, that was good! Persian lite. :-)

AGplusone: UN evacuated yesterday … all of them.

Musiquelle26: I have not had ten minutes to myself until this evening, unfortunately

AGplusone: How’s everyone, Stephanie?

AGplusone: {or all that could get out}

AGplusone: Ebon?

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Musiquelle26: Paula’s still doing well, no more treatments, Kevin’s recovering froma torn calf, and the

Musiquelle26: babies are yard apes now

AGplusone: Good.

AGplusone: a remission then, I take it?

Musiquelle26: We’ll know for sure in a few weeks when she does her post check-up

AGplusone: crossing fingers

Musiquelle26: But it looked favorable on the end-treatment biopsy

TAWN3: Did anyone read L. Niel Smith’s commentary the day of the attack?

AGplusone: I haven’t. You have a link?

DenvToday: Do you have a link?

TAWN3: Someone posted it on the Heinleiners list, I’ll dig it up and send it to you

AGplusone: okay ….

DenvToday: tyvm

TAWN3: Basically, he was predicting that we would all be instantly ruled by a police state

TAWN3: immediately as a result of the attacks.

Musiquelle26: I have a question, and I hope no one gets upset, but I’m trying to catch impressions

TAWN3: It was divorced from reality IMHO

Musiquelle26: What was everyone’s first, non-thought reaction?

geeairmoe2: Some libertarians may have made a serious PR blunder bringing that up so fast after the bombing.

TAWN3: We were at war.

AGplusone: Funny, tho … he just sent out a take-off on Harry Bellefonte’s Day-Oh, called ….

geeairmoe2: Made it look like all they cared about was their own personal needs.

geeairmoe2: And nothing for 5,000 innocent dead.

AGplusone: “The Pay Back Song” ….

AGplusone: Some libertarians need to have their heads spaced, which is why I ain’t one.

AGplusone: Pearl Harbor, Filly.

TAWN3: And timed David, don’t forget the timing.

AGplusone: That too

TAWN3: Yeah, I thought Pearl Harbor as well.

geeairmoe2: I was wondering, like with Pearl Harbor lore, how long before someone claims …

AGplusone: Wait until we have the mass funerals.

geeairmoe2: … the government let them bomb the towers for some political reason.

TAWN3: No one has any idea what we are talking about :-)

AGplusone: Filly knows.

TAWN3: Did anyone see the Father Mike funeral today? That was the most moving service I have ever

TAWN3: seen I think.

Musiquelle26: I had just gotten to work, and the last guy in said “A plane crashed into the WTC”

AGplusone: Head spacing and timing is what you do with a .50 cal. to make sure it doesn’t blow up in your face

AGplusone: when you fire it.

Musiquelle26: I thought he was making a sick joke, but went to pull it up on the internet

DJedPar: Lots of people behave irrationally/improperly in time of crisis.

geeairmoe2: I was thinking spacing and timing had something to do with spark plugs.

AGplusone: My wife woke me up into the middle of it.

Musiquelle26: We listened to AM radio all day at work, because we had no tv coverage

AGplusone: First thought was: Bush is going to get out of the economy mess because of this, then we saw it was

AGplusone: very serious, and oh-oh.

TAWN3: However, you can’t account for operator headspace!

AGplusone: No, you cannot.

TAWN3: Forgat to send that off before.

geeairmoe2: My father, works Physical Security (Customs) at Ft. Hood, called. It was after the second …

geeairmoe2: … plane hit the its tower. What really numbed me was seeing the tower collapse.

AGplusone: Yes, that happened right after I got the first cup of tea into me.

DenvToday: Same here. I thought there would be a gash in the tower and that woudl be it.

DenvToday: When I saw the tower collapse, I got light-headed. Unreal. Couldn’t belive it.

TAWN3: Yes, I saw that live. It was all raher shocking.

AGplusone: And when I saw it pancake I knew there’d be thousands dead.

Musiquelle26: I felt shock, then anger.

AGplusone: a real cold rage

Musiquelle26: yes

AGplusone: and then fear that no one would do anything real about it.

TAWN3: I’m surprised the death count is so low. That says a lot for US construction and society.

AGplusone: And that’s what scares me today.

AGplusone: It does.

Musiquelle26: From what we hear, the evacuation was going rapidly and in a controlled manner

TAWN3: What is that David?

AGplusone: I thought 40k for sure.

Musiquelle26: So did we

TAWN3: I did too.

DenvToday: It’s going to be about 6 thousand dead all told.

AGplusone: The fear that our leaders will piddle fuck around this thing.

geeairmoe2: I was hopefully optimistic, thinking there had been time for many, many to make it out.

Musiquelle26: We overestimated the plane deaths and could not fathom how many in the towers

DJedPar: You are correct AG, unfortunately.

TAWN3: No. I’m afraid of just the opposite David.

AGplusone: Send in a few missles and say: “See, we showed them!”

AGplusone: What opposite, Tawn?

TAWN3: No, no way. Congress and the administration all take this far to serious

AGplusone: A precipitous invasion?

TAWN3: I hope we don’t go to far and stat a universal Jihad.

Musiquelle26: Solid airstrikes accompanied by ground forces is what many here want

TAWN3: I don’t think we will, but….

TAWN3: No, we need to invade.

AGplusone: I think we have to take them one at a time.

AGplusone: “With us, or agin’ us?” Next country: “With us, or agin’ us?” Next country: etc. and ditto.

TAWN3: We need to wipe out the entire structure of terror networks.

AGplusone: We do.

Musiquelle26: Declare an “Enemies of USA list, and check them all off with decisive action

AGplusone: Sure. Just like the old Attorney Generals’ list of organizations.

geeairmoe2: I think it was Wm F Buckley who advocated, take out a known enemey and if they weren’t …

AGplusone: There’s no free speech issue.

AGplusone: They’re not citizens, and there’s a clear imminent danger.

geeairmoe2: … responsible, apoligize and move on to the next enemy.

Musiquelle26: I want to see retribution in the form of military action.

AGplusone: I agree with Buckley for the first time in years.

AGplusone: But no one ever accused him of being unable to think clearly.

TAWN3: once we attack, it will be all out war, terrorists will throw everything they have at us

AGplusone: I want to see an occupation like that of Germany.

TAWN3: once they realize it is “use it or lose it”.

AGplusone: They will.

AGplusone: Just as Hitler landed those subs in North Carolina.

geeairmoe2: The problem with occupation is you provide a target for every little piss-ant radical.

DenvToday: I would rather them throw everything they have at us now rather than ten years from now when they…

DenvToday: …have nukes.

DenvToday: If they had nukes now, they would have used them.

AGplusone: Yes, but … there has to be support for guerrillas from the exterior.

AGplusone: I agree.

TAWN3: No, you can’t occupy Afgan for long. Brits and Soviets found that out.

geeairmoe2: And if you get them all, you don’t need to occupy. But a nice little nuke :-)

AGplusone: Don’t need to occupy it long, and don’t need to nuke it.

TAWN3: Exactly David.

TAWN3: Taliban is not universally loved in Afghan, and has commited crimes against humanity, such

AGplusone: Get it. Clear out the Taliban, get out, and leave them to their business.

geeairmoe2: One nuke, to underscore our seriousness. Not so much to kill the radicals …

TAWN3: as destroying Bamiyan, which REALLY pissed me off!

AGplusone: Forget about nation building.

geeairmoe2: … as to get the fencesitters formly with us.

AGplusone: NO nukes, unless we have to take out something when we invade.

TAWN3: I agree david, with nation building and aid to follow.

AGplusone: We don’t need to use nukes unless we have a Harry Truman choice.

TAWN3: Or throw them to the Russians!

TAWN3: Say, hey, Putin, thanks for the support, they’re all yours now. LOL

AGplusone: ‘making points’ doesn’t ever, Will.

AGplusone: How do you scare a populance that hasn’t a pot to piss in with a nuke?

geeairmoe2: Making points to those still rational.

AGplusone: There’s no one rational in that country.

TAWN3: David, I disagree about nation building. After we do it, we have to help stabilize it.

TAWN3: Or the same problem will pop up.

AGplusone: Well, I think there’s a possibility that trying to nation build will just turn us into ‘oppressors’

AGplusone: for every tinpot demogogue.

AGplusone: Leave them to their goats ….

DenvToday: I still say we kill from the top down. The traditional way has been to kill thousands of soldiers…

TAWN3: Not do so while occupyinmg. This time, unlike Saudi, Get out.

DenvToday: …and civilians to get to the top dog. Why do that?

AGplusone: I think top down is what we do when we occupy.

DenvToday: Kill heads of state.

AGplusone: Sift out the chaff, and destroy it and then leave.

TAWN3: Half of the problem today., if not more, is because we never left after the Gulf War.

AGplusone: Your village is yours again. See to it it stays that way. Bye.

DenvToday: Ask politely for the terrorists groups in their country. Give them 24 hours. Then ask the guys…

Musiquelle26: Thank you for an echo of opinion, Tawn

DenvToday: …who has replaced the head of state we killed.

AGplusone: I agree with you Denv.

DenvToday: He’ll be remarkably compliant, I’d say.

TAWN3: Sure Musiq.

AGplusone: and after we get two or three refusals, we declare war. Let them sit there looking foolish while we

AGplusone: build up. Send them photos of the building up.

AGplusone: Problem is: how do you get to the leaders when they go to the bush.

TAWN3: David, don’t forget, it’s not just the Taliban. It’s Sudan, probably Yemen, many others, as

geeairmoe2: Sooner or later, nation building or no, we’re going to have to leave, and it would help prevent …

TAWN3: well as states who support it on the side, such as Iran.

DenvToday: Are we ready to get nasty?

geeairmoe2: … having to do it all again if they had something indelible imprinted on their psyche that …

TAWN3: We need to go into many places.

DenvToday: I mean really nasty?

DenvToday: You go after their families.

geeairmoe2: … demonstrates what happen if you fall into bad habits.

AGplusone: I pointed out to Joel my theory. Land in Haifa, and start moving East. Clear out the whole muddle.

DenvToday: Do as we tell you to do or your children get it.

DenvToday: I know that sounds barbaric…

DenvToday: …but is it less barbaric to kill ten thousand soliders to get to thim?

Musiquelle26: But has little effect Denv

TAWN3: Soviet style.

Musiquelle26: In certain cultures, the promise of eternal reward outweighs such mortal insult

geeairmoe2: I mentioned earlier, when I lived in Japan in the early 70’s, how the Japaneese who remembered …

geeairmoe2: … the bomb wlaked on egshells around Americans.

AGplusone: I don’t think you have time to educate the populace. they won’t know what you’re talking about

geeairmoe2: I was a ten-year old kid and they moved out of the way for me.

TAWN3: Well, we had the Sun od, MacArtjur, who played the role to the max geeairmoe.

TAWN3: Sun God.

AGplusone: All they know is what their Iman says.

geeairmoe2: 25 years after the bomb they were respectful to teenage American.

AGplusone: Wasn’t just a bomb, Will?

TAWN3: It’s a Third World country. Backwards. Unfortuneately.

geeairmoe2: Probaly different now, a generation later.

AGplusone: They were soundly beaten, theatre wide.

geeairmoe2: They had had they homeland violated. That made the real impression.

TAWN3: Japan? Yes, and the Emperor bowed down. THAT was humbling.

AGplusone: And it’s a different situation … the homeland violated, exactly.

AGplusone: Same thing with the Germans.

Musiquelle26: I started reading the Koran recently, as I said on the board

AGplusone: We sat there, for fifty-odd years, now.

TAWN3: Afghan is not Japan. Be careful of comparisons except in the most basic, macro sense.

geeairmoe2: If we violate the homeland of friends of terrorists, they’ll remember that.

AGplusone: I agree, but not by simply bombing it.

geeairmoe2: I’m talking about what we do to their supporters.

TAWN3: Third world versus 1st world mentality. Big difference.

geeairmoe2: Get them on our side quickly.

AGplusone: I agree. Nuremburg.

Musiquelle26: And I am have had to put it aside, due to the recent events.

AGplusone: Take them out and shoot them.

geeairmoe2: How do you think Yemen will react to the sight of a mushroom cloud over Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: No one wants to tolerate even an attempt to become educated about the beliefs

AGplusone: But the problem is going to be: what do we do about the Saudis who have been doing this.

geeairmoe2: Think they’ll stop blocking the Cole investigation?

TAWN3: Well, how about with a Jihad Geeairmoe

AGplusone: Yemen would declare a holy war against us. What do they have to lose?

geeairmoe2: For the Saudis, just destroy all their oil wells.

AGplusone: You don’t scare someone who has nothing with bombs.

TAWN3: Saudis are allies.

geeairmoe2: We’ve got more nukes than the terrorists have friendly countries.

AGplusone: Most are, Tawn, but what about the bin Ladens?

TAWN3: See, this is what I am afraid of, over reaction.

AGplusone: Nukes aren’t going to do shit.

DenvToday: David, I agree.

Musiquelle26: Or worse, the ones suspected of talking out of both sides their mouths?

TAWN3: You don’t destroy saudi oil wells because of a Saudi criminal.

DavidWrightSr: All it would do is create a million new terrorists!

AGplusone: except piss people off.

TAWN3: By the way, we are the ones who want the oil don’t forget.

DenvToday: Besides–we need the oil. We’d be cutting our own throats.

DenvToday: lol hyep

DenvToday: yep

AGplusone: You don’t use a nuke unless you have a Harry Truman choice, do I lose 250,000 men invading.

geeairmoe2: Convince me we won’t lose 250,000 without nukes.

TAWN3: We have the moral highground. We need to keep it. Period.

DavidWrightSr: Tactical nukes against an opposing army? That might be needed.

DenvToday: We discover exactly where the terrorist camps are. We use the Israelis. We find out where the…

DavidWrightSr: But against a populated center just to give them the fear of God. No way.

AGplusone: How can I convince you? 100 hour war against Iraq enough for you?

DenvToday: terrorist leaders are hiding out. We can do this.

DenvToday: Then we go in and get them. We don’t use large invasion forces. We use commandos.

AGplusone: The vaunted Republican Guard melted into the woodwork.

DenvToday: And we don’t ask permission of the countries we enter. We just go in and get th em.

TAWN3: The Republican Guard was smart. they lived to fight another day.

TAWN3: And are still in power.

geeairmoe2: Take out the fund raisers, take out the country’s that offer sancuary.

AGplusone: It didn’t have to be that way. We didn’t have to stop.

TAWN3: Agreed, in many ways David. Except,

geeairmoe2: Put in everyone’s mind, now and forever: support terrorists, get nuked.

geeairmoe2: Give everyone the undeniable incentive to never harbor terrorists.

AGplusone: Love it, the nuke mentality.

TAWN3: I’ve always thouht showing our true honesty to the Russians was a big reason wwe stopped.

AGplusone: True terrorism.

geeairmoe2: Getting the terrorist alone is just half the problem.

AGplusone: To get one, we’ll kill ten thousand.

geeairmoe2: Look at those dancing Palestinians who taught math by, if you kill three jews then four …

AGplusone: Problem is: the nuke kills the ones appalled by the dancing.

geeairmoe2: More terrorists will be born, and our great grandchildren won’t face this problem.

DenvToday: I must be going. Bye everybody. Thanks for the excellent discussion.

geeairmoe2: We left the Gulf War half done, we can’t leave the eradication of terrorism half done.

AGplusone: But you don’t do it with Nukes.

DenvToday has left the room.

geeairmoe2: That’s what I’m talking about when “the will to see it through”.

geeairmoe2: If you can suggest something that can leave a more indeliable impression, I’m with you.

AGplusone: Tell you what, Gee. You agree to ride the Nuke down, and I will think about it.

TAWN3: Bye Denv.

TAWN3: Agree Geeair. Can’t be a half ass job.

TAWN3: Must be all out.

AGplusone: After all, it’s just a little demonstration on an unimportant town or two.

TAWN3: YEE HAH! Slim pickens!

AGplusone: or John Ezra Dalquist

DavidWrightSr: If it would work, I might agree. But it *will not* work. It will just leave…

Musiquelle26: I find myself sensitive to the idea of nukes, I must admit

DavidWrightSr: millions of terrorists around to get us later.

TAWN3: NO NUKES ARE NEEDED. I can’t believe I am hearing this.

DavidWrightSr: *create* millions of terrorists to get us.

AGplusone: exactly: my name is Jose Jimenez, you killed my father: prepare to die.

Musiquelle26: Of all that I have heard, the idea of surgical, commando type strikes fit my idea of just

AGplusone: surgical strikes are a joke

AGplusone: we were doomed by that thinking in Vietnam

TAWN3: Exactly Musiq. Surgical with supporting ground forces. NOT a stupid air war only.

DavidWrightSr: Like the one in Iran to get the hostages out

AGplusone: tea saloon idiots and newscasters

Musiquelle26: I apologize; I have little grounding in the concept of works well

TAWN3: I must sign off for a few moments

Musiquelle26: I just want to minimize how much like them we must go to get the job done

AGplusone: to do it you must land forces and take and hold the ground …

AGplusone: You can’t.

TAWN3: If I can’t sign off before you all quit, good seeing you all!

geeairmoe2: Forgive me for caring so much for the future generations of my country thal I’ll do anything….

AGplusone: See you, Tawn.

TAWN3 has left the room.

geeairmoe2: … ANYTHING to protect them.

AGplusone: No. Doing anything is unforgiveable

Musiquelle26: Killing innocents on large scale, i.e nukes, is wrong

Musiquelle26: tit for tat, so to speak.

ddavitt has entered the room.

geeairmoe2: Innocents don’t harbor terrorists.

AGplusone: We

AGplusone: don’t

AGplusone: nuke

AGplusone: them

ddavitt: Y’all still here? Don’t you have homes to go to?:-)

Musiquelle26: Hey lady…I’m stirring up the hornets nest, I fear

AGplusone: We may invade their land … and if they don’t get out of the way that’s too bad

AGplusone: but

AGplusone: We

AGplusone: don’t

geeairmoe2: Like I said, give me an option that will leave a more indeliable impression.

AGplusone: nuke

AGplusone: them

AGplusone: I’m not looking for impressions

Musiquelle26: Occupation will work, but for how long?

ddavitt: Ah..well, I just put the girls to bed and thought I’d see if there was anyone here

DavidWrightSr: You are overlooking the fact that a terrorist or small group of

ddavitt: As I missed most of the chat earlier.

Musiquelle26: Does the next generation bomb my daughter’s place of work to retaliate for that?

DavidWrightSr: terrorists don’t *have* to have a country’s support.

DJedPar: Gppd Night Jane

Musiquelle26: We’re talking a culture that has centuries of tit-for-tat retribution on all sides

AGplusone: They don’t give a damn about the people with whom they take refuge

AGplusone: I don’t want to impress anyone. I just want to kill the ones who espouse terrorism. If I have to go in

AGplusone: the next week and do it again, then so be it.

AGplusone: But I’m willing to give the ones who do not espouse terrorism the right to live afterwards.

AGplusone: I recognize that most of those people at best are along for the ride.

Musiquelle26: Then we, as a country, must maintain the vigilance, and not slump back into ….

AGplusone: At worst, they’re oppressed by the same bastards.

Musiquelle26: “damn the miltary, we don’t need them anymore” attitude

DJedPar has left the room.

Musiquelle26: There was a strong apathy about the military before the Gulf War, then it became a good thin

Musiquelle26: When I got in, most Gulf War vets were gettng out, and the country didn’t care about us

AGplusone: always the same story, Stephanie

AGplusone: most of the country doesn’t care about anything except filling its rice bowl

AGplusone: just like China

Musiquelle26: What I’m saying so poorly, is I don’t see, even IF we did nuke, that we can get rid of this

Musiquelle26: Perhaps, I’m too defeatist

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

AGplusone: We can’t doing it that way. We get rid of them the same way we get rid of the Nazi … deNazification

AGplusone: that requires occupation

AGplusone: Dave: I think we’re about done. Did you catch the part to edit out. The references to Tawn and Filly

AGplusone: in MI MOSes?

Musiquelle26: I see that part of the point. What I fear is that the violence is inherant to the religious

DavidWrightSr: Got it

AGplusone: Okay.

AGplusone: I think it is.

AGplusone: That doesn’t get solved in a generation.

AGplusone: Like the Crusades

AGplusone: the thing to do is to remove the folk that espouse it

AGplusone: Make that the deterent

AGplusone: Hang them all.

Musiquelle26: Alright. My thick skull just let in the point you were making :-)

AGplusone: And then watch the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that, ad infinitum

Musiquelle26: I’m an idiot, but at least I admit it

AGplusone: ‘a woman’s work is never done’ You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone: Love to them all, Filly

Musiquelle26: And to all of your families

ddavitt: Night everyone.

Musiquelle26 has left the room.

AGplusone: wb, Dave. I think we got it out of our systems. Jane, what next?

DavidWrightSr: Got dropped. I was just about to close it out. Anything I missed?

ddavitt: Topics?

AGplusone: nothing missed. Topics?

AGplusone: Report on Con?

AGplusone: and what else

ddavitt: Con; though it seems like a million years ago

ddavitt: After that we need to firm up some guests

ddavitt: Connie, Mr Kondo, Lois Bujold, Crais…

AGplusone: ah, …

ddavitt: All possibles

AGplusone: Okay, why don’t we just start a schedule

AGplusone: First one to say yes, we go with

ddavitt: Racism chat would be a good one; we touched on that on Thursday

TAWN3 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Bill and Andy were supposed to do that I think

AGplusone: wb, fighting through the ether, Tawn

ddavitt: We can nudge them.

TAWN3: Hi!

AGplusone: talking about schedule

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:04 P.M. EDT.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday Sept 13, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday Sept 13, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
We were due to chat about the convention but I have been asked to postpone that as not everyone is around who went.

At very short notice and to avoid missing another scheduled meeting, I’ve thrown together a quick topic; colonisation of planets and a comparison with that and the covered wagon history of America.

We may have done something similar before…but what the heck….

Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His family may have been but he was born too late. Instead he recreated their adventures and set them on different planets. The obvious book with this theme is Farmer in the Sky but there are others; the Adopted Daughter segment of TEFL, the short part at the end of Starman Jones, Red Planet, still a very new colony in many ways…

Can we see any differences in the old style pioneers and those who go to the new planets? Is the selection of suitable individuals in Farmer different from the natural selection that took place in the US? Why? Are the dangers different? What was easiest; the journey to Ganymede or to California? Which was the more dangerous, Mars or the prairie? What qualities are shown as being necessary to make a good pioneer? How do those who slipped by the selection board get weeded out?

Is Heinlein correct in his vision of a colony composed of families with youngsters; would that happen or would it be more likely to be done by scientists and the armed forces with frequent change of personnel?

And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate out there? Or something deeper?

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3B9A3A3E.E97F4FDD@home.com…

>We were due to chat about the convention but I have been asked to
>postpone that as not everyone is around who went.
>At very short notice and to avoid missing another scheduled meeting,
>I’ve thrown together a quick topic; colonisation of planets and a
>comparison with that and the covered wagon history of America.
>

Jane. PBS has been doing a series called ‘Frontier House’. Information on it is located at

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/frontierhouse/topstories/topstory.html

I haven’t been following this, but I intend to check it our further and see what insight it might give to the topic.

David Wright
In article,

Jane Davittwrote:

>
>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>family may have been but he was born too late.

Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number of times, the father not being really suitable material for the life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in, where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway, to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.

Anyway, RAH was one year older than Jack WIlliamson and JW moved to Arizona, I think, in a covered wagon with his parents. Still a little bit of a frontier left even then.

snip

>And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something
>to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t
>look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate
>out there? Or something deeper?

Well, three things, I think: it turned out the planets are far more hostile to us than we expected, it turned out space travel is a hell of a lot more expensive than was expected and it’s only about half a century since we started lobbing things into space. If we’re lucky, the analogous situation is 1492, and how long it took things to really get rolling in the new world but it might well be we just saw the space colonization version of Leif Erikson or Robert Falcon Scott, where the available tool kit was not quite up to the job.

[James Nicoll]
James Nicoll wrote:

>In article ,
>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>
>>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>>family may have been but he was born too late.
>
> Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited
>before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number
>of times, the father not being really suitable material for the
>life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in,
>where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately
>needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the
>whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use
>charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway,
>to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.
>
>

I’ve read a fair few of the books about the LH, as well as the books themselves (practically know them off by heart) and I’ve got extras, like ‘West From Home’. Laura’s letters home to Mannie when she’s visiting Rose in San Francisco.

I was a bit disconcerted when I found out that, in some ways, the LH books are fiction, not fact. Extra details, like the young brother who died as a baby were sad.

All in all though, the books themselves are perfect examples of children’s classics; enjoyable at any age and timeless in their appeal.

I have heard that Rose, a published author herself, edited the books and had a bit of an agenda when she did so. I can’t say that I ever noticed this when I read the books.

It’s ‘Ingalls’ btw not Engles….or is that a Significant Slip?.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article,

Jane Davittwrote:

>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>>
>>>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>>>family may have been but he was born too late.
>>
>> Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited
>>before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number
>>of times, the father not being really suitable material for the
>>life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in,
>>where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately
>>needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the
>>whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use
>>charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway,
>>to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.
>>
>>
>
>I’ve read a fair few of the books about the LH, as well as the books
>themselves (practically know them off by heart) and I’ve got extras, like
>’West From Home’. Laura’s letters home to Mannie when she’s visiting Rose in
>San Francisco.
>I was a bit disconcerted when I found out that, in some ways, the LH books
>are fiction, not fact. Extra details, like the young brother who died as a
>baby were sad.

I think it was Orwell in an essay on how views had changed commented on finding a tombstone which put ‘about’ before the estimate of the number of kids the woman had had. His explanation was that people expected some kids to die and didn’t keep close count back then, although I can think of other explanations.

I am trying to remember which 1800-era novel had the little sister playing too close to fire and dying when her dress caught fire. Old timey cookbooks used to have sections on burn treaments because it was fairly easy on a wood stove to get burned, esp in the restictive clothes women wore back then.

Or heck, you could just have a flue fire. My older brother was a caretaker for a farm an old Mennonite fellow had run until he died and the the half of the house the old guy used had hand pumped water woodstove heat (The half was rented to a Modern Young Thing who had a mirror over her bed. Must have made for interesting neighbors, those two). I guess he used wood with a lot of creosote and never cleaned the flue because one day the crap on the inside of the pipes caught fire and there was much running around with wet towels to stop the heat from the stove pipe from igniting the house. V exciting although I think I spent more time as a sixteen year old thinking about those mirrors.

The great thing about growing up in Mennonite country is you get to see, even experience, the stuff children’s books romanticize. After you deal with an outhouse whose pit is full, flush toilets look pretty damn good.

>All in all though, the books themselves are perfect examples of children’s
>classics; enjoyable at any age and timeless in their appeal.
>
>I have heard that Rose, a published author herself, edited the books and had
>a bit of an agenda when she did so. I can’t say that I ever noticed this when
>I read the books.
>
>It’s ‘Ingalls’ btw not Engles….or is that a Significant Slip? .
>

Nope, just a goof.

If you want a grim surprise, compare and contrast Anne of Green Gables with the life of the woman who wrote about her, Lucy Maude Montgomery.

[James Nicoll]
James Nicoll wrote:

>
> If you want a grim surprise, compare and contrast Anne of
>Green Gables with the life of the woman who wrote about her, Lucy
>Maude Montgomery.

Oh yes! I have read all of her Journals and letters ( which are fascinating in that not a lot happens exactly but you can’t stop reading about it.). Her life was tragic in many ways…as far removed from the happy endings of Emily, Jane, Pat and Valancy as you can imagine.

Again, I know all her books in great detail; when I find an author I like, I stick with them. I live not that far from one of her homes in Ontario. And, although I didn’t get married there, as so many Japanese tourists do, I insisted on going to PEI as part of our Canadian honeymoon ( I lived in the UK back then). It was not quite as I’d imagined it…..but then, few things are. I don’t think I’ll go back; the tourist hype ruined it for me. LMM would hate it. And it’s Maud…unlike Anne, there is no ‘e’ :-)

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article, Jane Davittwrote: >James Nicoll wrote:

>>
>> If you want a grim surprise, compare and contrast Anne of
>>Green Gables with the life of the woman who wrote about her, Lucy
>>Maude Montgomery.

I am afraid I have slightly reformated your lines to be less than 70 char long because on my screen the lines were doing odd things.

>Oh yes! I have read all of her Journals and letters ( which are
>fascinating in that not a lot happens exactly but you can’t stop
>reading about it.). Her life was tragic in many ways…as far removed
>from the happy endings of Emily, Jane, Pat and Valancy as you can
>imagine.

Well, that’s one reason to write, eh? End the stories the way they should have ended rather than the way that they did.

There’s an unrelenting grim stage play about her, which I saw as part of a season pass to a theatre in TO. Not knowing anything about her except that she was the author of AoGG, I went to see it on the assumption that since the two plays before it had been light comedy, this one would be too. About a minute into the play, it is clear it could not go in happy directions. Even when she is successful and there are no material barriers to happiness, the character in the play is simply incapable of enjoying herself.

>Again, I know all her books in great detail; when I find an author I
>like, I stick with them. I live not that far from one of her homes in
>Ontario.

Huh. We can’t be all that far away from each other, then.

James Nicoll
On 8 Sep 2001 13:14:18 -0400, James Nicoll

wrote:

>In article,

>Jane Davittwrote:

>>

>>And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something

>>to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t

>>look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate

>>out there? Or something deeper?

>

> Well, three things, I think: it turned out the planets are

>far more hostile to us than we expected, it turned out space travel

>is a hell of a lot more expensive than was expected and it’s only

>about half a century since we started lobbing things into space. If

>we’re lucky, the analogous situation is 1492, and how long it took

>things to really get rolling in the new world but it might well be

>we just saw the space colonization version of Leif Erikson or Robert

>Falcon Scott, where the available tool kit was not quite up to the

>job.

Plus the political angle. RAH saw the future of space flight being commercial (possibly with a bit of political hindrance, as in the people who try to stop the first flights, but nothing very serious). He didn’t forsee that it would be taken over totally by governments who forbid private enterprise to operate spacecraft and then try to satisfy the voters.

Would any of Heinlein’s corporate space enterprises have permitted the Mars lander foulups or the Challenger mess without firing the people responsible? Or abandoned the moon just because it wasn’t getting enough media attention? Heck, would they still be using ‘computers’ designed 30+ years ago which no-one now remembers how to maintain?

(And as for the European space programme, it hasn’t advanced much since the 50s. But RAH nuked Europe in so many timelines anyway…)

Chris C
One thought about the weeding out process; especially in Tunnel. It doesn’t work.

Look at it; the students had to be at a school that offered it ( or travel to that school). They had to study hard enough that their teacher would let them go. They had to survive the rigors of the planet long enough to reach the comparative haven of the settled, stobor aware village…..and with all that, Bruce and Theo are still alive and kicking.

Is this saying that true survivors aren’t always the nice ones ( Grant for instance) or was it Heinlein being aware that idyllic villages sell fewer copies? Note how short the space of time is that we see that village; Heinlein skips us ahead over a year, and a few pages later there’s a fight and then the rescue.

Every pioneer planet has its misfits in Heinlein, even Farmer with that strict but not fool proof testing system. Maybe they’re the yeast…..or the mould but they’re always there. Too any and they bring it all down in ruins, too few and there’s no one to look down on so trouble begins…

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message

news:3B9C0672.EC10167B@home.com…

>Every pioneer planet has its misfits in Heinlein, even Farmer with that strict
>but not fool proof testing system. Maybe they’re the yeast…..or the mould
>but they’re always there. Too any and they bring it all down in ruins, too few
>and there’s no one to look down on so trouble begins…

In FitS it is noted that many slip by due to political influence. Lermer’s father paid for him to be there. No weeding system is perfect*. I think Heinlein pointed this out in most of the books. Artificial methods of weeding will have artificial ways to bypass them, and will not be perfect, as they are designed and implemented by humans. Natural methods are still subjects to statistical factors. IOW blind luck plays a part.

NW

*No system other than working for Kettle Belly Baldwin. Survivors are the ones who come back.
Jane Davitt wrote in message

news:3B9A3A3E.E97F4FDD@home.com…

>The obvious book
>with this theme is Farmer in the Sky but there are others; the Adopted
>Daughter segment of TEFL, the short part at the end of Starman Jones,
>Red Planet, still a very new colony in many ways…

Jane, did you leave out Tunnel on purpose? That’s another where the whole point is the natural selection that happens after the colonist have left. IIRC the whole point of that “class” was to help them become colonist survivors?

Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
To bypass the Atans guarding my mailbox change FornMin.tam.gov to ev1.net

Oscagne wrote:

>>Jane, did you leave out Tunnel on purpose? That’s another where the whole

>point is the natural selection that happens after the colonist have left.

>IIRC the whole point of that “class” was to help them become colonist

>survivors?

>

>

Oops..not on purpose no :-) Ahem, that is to say, it was a test to see if you were all paying attention….full marks that boy!

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

James Nicoll wrote:

>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>
>>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>>family may have been but he was born too late.
>
> Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited
>before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number
>of times, the father not being really suitable material for the
>life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in,
>where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately
>needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the
>whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use
>charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway,
>to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.
>
> Anyway, RAH was one year older than Jack WIlliamson and
>JW moved to Arizona, I think, in a covered wagon with his parents.
>Still a little bit of a frontier left even then.
>
> snip
>
>>And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something
>>to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t
>>look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate
>>out there? Or something deeper?
>
> Well, three things, I think: it turned out the planets are
>far more hostile to us than we expected, it turned out space travel
>is a hell of a lot more expensive than was expected and it’s only
>about half a century since we started lobbing things into space. If
>we’re lucky, the analogous situation is 1492, and how long it took
>things to really get rolling in the new world but it might well be
>we just saw the space colonization version of Leif Erikson or Robert
>Falcon Scott, where the available tool kit was not quite up to the
>job.

I think someone mentions, James, further on in this thread that the Ingalls stories are classic children’s novels. It’s been so many years since I’ve read those stories that I’m not entirely sure I did, although if they included the blizzard winter where the mother and children subsisted somehow on straw they ground with something else (some grain, I vaguely recall) in a coffee grinder, and cooked, when the father was gone off somewhere, I did. But the point why those were ideally suited as children’s novels came home to roost during the panel I was on in MilPhilCon this way:

The panel was structured around an actual class taught by a teacher in West Texas assigned to a class of ‘special’ children. I don’t know what weeding system is used in Texas in the district where he taught to determine who is ‘special’ as the euphemism goes — but his explanation of the class technique he used along with Farmer in the Sky made me infer that perhaps for some, if not most, a lack of self achievement, or familial achievement, perhaps even mere poverty, more than anything else in particular resulted in or at least influenced kids being placed in this class. A patch of hard Texas dirt was assigned the ‘special’ class, incidentally, to keep the kids occupied. Previous efforts to till this Garden of Eden had resulted in hard Texas dirt with stunty little dried up plants, if anything ever broke the surface.

Reading Farmer in the Sky to them, and emphasizing the cultivation of fertile soil from native rock, he induced the class to try what was called ‘organic gardening’ by one of the panelists. [Perhaps that is what you call it. I wouldn’t know. I’m a city boy whose grandfather had a back lot of an acre or so full of tomatoes and anything else he took it in his mind to grow after he came off his shift bolting Nash automobiles together (a garden just like Marlon Brando in The Godfather); and they never bought canned vegetables they couldn’t grow — they put the produce up in Mason jars for about two weeks every summer. Most of my uncles do the same — at least growing fresh vegetables, even in places like Cicero, Illinois; and you can even find me looking for some nice tobacco-mosiac virus resistant plants every early spring to grow in pots where my lot gets decent sun.] In any event, this teacher was a real go getter, and hit the local merchants and other community support groups for good seed, compost, fertilizer, etc., and whatever else he got; and the kids pitched in well. The kids were very enthusiastic about the story, and the garden succeeded with a great deal of local publicity and recognition for them, which encouraged their development.

The teacher’s point was the story hit the kids’ imagination right where a hit was needed, it inspired them with something they could understand perfectly. Metaphorically, my point would be the kids recognized something in themselves akin to growing fertile soil from sterile rock — but I’m too academic, perhaps.

A seemingly off-topic question came from the audience, as questions will: what makes Heinlein think that this form of agriculture will occur in planetary pioneering or agricultural production rather than others? The quick and dirty answer I gave, of course, was simple: Heinlein didn’t make an exclusive choice — one book of Heinlein does not a Heinlein prediction make (see, e.g., I Will Fear No Evil for corporate agriculture, “Logic of Empire” or Podkayne of Mars for slave or ‘indentured-servant’ plantations, the two Universe stories for hydroponic gardening, etc.). My second answer to the question, however, was this: this ‘organic’ gardening — to use the phrase in the sense it was being used in the panel (I always thought ‘organic’ was without pesticides) — was what children who read juveniles are most likely to understand, because it is the simplest form of agriculture they are likely to recognize, either from the backyard gardens they’ve seen their own parents or neighbors grow (even today in large metropolitan areas, at least they’ve likely seen someone trying to grow pots of tomatoes on balconies or rooftops), or read about in stories like the Ingalls stories of pioneering, the truck garden mother grew to sustain the family, whether the wheatfields brought home a profit or the cattle or sheep survived transportation to a market.

Farmer in the Sky comes before *most* of the adult novels dealing with pioneering of space, the generation ship of Orphans excepted, of course–that older one is an unique setting; perhaps the answer is as simple as that. Perhaps not.

As to the point of “getting off the planet” as being vital: I think it’s not exclusively the getting off the planet that is vital, it’s the invigoration of spirit, the removal from an overly structured society and its strictures that Heinlein saw as vital to human development of vital freedoms, and he found it most easily to portray on a physical frontier off in space such as his own ancestors enjoyed. If that could be done in a badlands, a “Coventry,” it would work as well, wouldn’t you say?

He relates with pleasure and pride in one of his writings the story of an ancestor over 100 years of age dying trying to harvest a buck stranded on ice. Horrors! Grandpa Simpson would never be allowed to do that! Any family that left Grandpa Simpson out where he could even see a buck on ice when he wasn’t numbed down by his medication would be prosecuted for elder abuse today, don’t you think? Good riddance, too! Homer and Marge belong in jail anyway. Letting their children watch television instead of making them read. Imagine that? 😉


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

In article,

Chris Croughtonwrote:

>
>Plus the political angle. RAH saw the future of space flight being
>commercial (possibly with a bit of political hindrance, as in the people
>who try to stop the first flights, but nothing very serious). He didn’t
>forsee that it would be taken over totally by governments who forbid
>private enterprise to operate spacecraft and then try to satisfy the
>voters.
>
>Would any of Heinlein’s corporate space enterprises have permitted the
>Mars lander foulups or the Challenger mess without firing the people
>responsible? Or abandoned the moon just because it wasn’t getting
>enough media attention? Heck, would they still be using ‘computers’
>designed 30+ years ago which no-one now remembers how to maintain?

Rememeber the comment about how exploration is often the discovery of new ways to die? In fact if I remember my RAH correctly he comments that a number of the first colonies in California starved. When one is engaged in exploring a new realm, whether physical or just engineering, expensive miscalculations due to insufficient understanding will get made: look at the Comet, for example.

The advantage of older computers is that they are space-rated, whereas a shuttle running NT might get the Blue Screen of Death 98 seconds into boost phase. Again, the historical example of tech so new it is counter-productive is the Franklin Expedition (Which drove a lot of exploration of the north as the British looked for the bodies) and its lead-sealed tins of food. Unfortunately they did not know at the time the lead solder should not be in contact with the food, not until after Franklin and his crew breathed their last.

>(And as for the European space programme, it hasn’t advanced much since
>the 50s. But RAH nuked Europe in so many timelines anyway…)

Pft. The Ariane is a decent series of launch vehicles, nicely supplying a viable niche to the tune of *two thirds* of the international launch market. The space-related activities which can actually make money are subject to vigourous competition. It’s just in the 1940s and 1950s it was not clear to the writers what activities those would be. Well, Clarke got it right in his acticle on comsats but saw the comsats as manned.

RAH wrote off Europe for reasons similar to the way Nevil Shute writes off emigres in _In the Wet_, only mirror-imaged. Two authors each picking a model which puts their kind of people at the top of heap quality-wise, what a surprise.

James Nicoll
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:46:49 -0400, “David Wright” keyed:

>
>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>news:3B9A3A3E.E97F4FDD@home.com…
>>We were due to chat about the convention but I have been asked to
>>postpone that as not everyone is around who went.
>>At very short notice and to avoid missing another scheduled meeting,
>>I’ve thrown together a quick topic; colonisation of planets and a
>>comparison with that and the covered wagon history of America.
>>
>
>Jane. PBS has been doing a series called ‘Frontier House’. Information on it
>is located at
>
>http://www.pbs.org/wnet/frontierhouse/topstories/topstory.html
>
>I haven’t been following this, but I intend to check it our further and see
>what insight it might give to the topic.
>
>David Wright
>

How does one get in on this chat? My grandparents grew up in virtual frontier culture, i.e. woodburning stove, farming, horse-and-buggy style living. I’ve absorbed as much of it as I could.

lazarus

Keep America Beautiful..Have Your Republican Spayed or Neutered

“…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Stephen F. Roberts

http://www.petitiononline.com/ddc12/petition.html

“lazarus”wrote in message

news:okmpptsn7jbt263cmirnb8heearpt4lt5s@4ax.com…

>On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:46:49 -0400, “David Wright”

>keyed:
>

(snip)

>
>How does one get in on this chat? My grandparents grew up in virtual
>frontier culture, i.e. woodburning stove, farming, horse-and-buggy
>style living. I’ve absorbed as much of it as I could.
>
>

Instructions for downloading the AIM program and joining the chat are located at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

If there are any problems, don’t hesitate to get in touch with me at:

dwrighsr@alltel.net rather than the address given in the header.

David Wright
lazarus33pjf@msn.com wrote:

>How does one get in on this chat? My grandparents grew up in virtual
>frontier culture, i.e. woodburning stove, farming, horse-and-buggy
>style living. I’ve absorbed as much of it as I could.

See,

http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm

and

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

for instructions.

You need to download the freeware, then use one of the methods to get into the room, described on Dave Wright’s page. E mail Oz, or Dave Wright, or Jane Davitt and ask them to add you to the e mail notice lists, if you wish. Thanks for asking.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

[Editor’s Note:] These posts came after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I will open the room as usual at 9.00 pm for the scheduled chat on pioneering in Heinlein. I will understand if people don’t feel up to chatting tonight but I will be there for those that do.

I ask one thing; if the chat does inevitably turn to recent events and there are violent differences of opinion, that the discussion stops and returns to topic. This is not intended to stifle discussion but to keep the same friendly and courteous atmosphere that we are used to in the chat room.

Thank you.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3BA0AC39.A2BE80A3@home.com…

Thank you Jane. I will welcome thoughts and talk of more mundane matters.

Jim

“Nuclear Waste”wrote in message news:9nqc1p$93jda$1@ID-97148.news.dfncis.de…

>
>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>news:3BA0AC39.A2BE80A3@home.com…
>
>Thank you Jane. I will welcome thoughts and talk of more mundane matters.
>

I’m not sure that I can think or talk about more mundane matters, but I very much respect the right of others to do so.

[Joel Rosenberg]
Joel Rosenberg wrote:

>>
>I’m not sure that I can think or talk about more mundane matters, but I very
>much respect the right of others to do so.

It is difficult to move on, even a little, after something this traumatic. My six year old daughter here in Canada was sent home from school with a letter giving advice on how to counsel her about the attacks; it hasn’t really touched her as I have not watched the TV when she’s been around. Her grandparents fly out in 2 weeks and I don’t want her wondering if they too will crash. I’m worrying but she doesn’t have to.

The children may be mercifully oblivious but it’s certainly had a major effect on the adults in our community. All flags are at half mast and we are trying, like you Americans, to get to grips with the enormity of it all and what will follow.

However, getting back to normal is a positive step and I don’t intend to cancel the chat. Changing our way of life is the intended goal of the terrorists; we shouldn’t do their work for them. I would like the chance to be together with my online friends in this sad time. If the topic gets sidelined, then that is not a problem at all. I just don’t want the tensions of the moment to make natural differences of opinion escalate into an argument rather than a discussion. This doesn’t seem the time for it somehow.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

On 10 Sep 2001 11:16:03 -0400, James Nicoll

wrote:

>Rememeber the comment about how exploration is often the
>discovery of new ways to die? In fact if I remember my RAH correctly
>he comments that a number of the first colonies in California starved.
>When one is engaged in exploring a new realm, whether physical or just
>engineering, expensive miscalculations due to insufficient understanding
>will get made: look at the Comet, for example.

Yes, indeed, but would they have allowed the coverups? (Ah, yes, the Comet, still going after 50 years, the Nimrod is still the old Comet airframe. It’s beaten by the “Gooney Bird”, I hear there are still some of those in service in the Far East, but not much else in aviation.)

>The advantage of older computers is that they are space-rated,
>whereas a shuttle running NT might get the Blue Screen of Death 98 seconds
>into boost phase.

You don’t have to run crappy M$ software. There’s plenty of embedded systems running on more modern hardware than the Shuttles’ in aerospace, and a lot of it is rated for combat conditions.

>Again, the historical example of tech so new it is
>counter-productive is the Franklin Expedition (Which drove a lot of
>exploration of the north as the British looked for the bodies) and
>its lead-sealed tins of food. Unfortunately they did not know at the
>time the lead solder should not be in contact with the food, not until
>after Franklin and his crew breathed their last.

Or Arthur Clarke’s story (“Superiority”?). Yes, putting in the “newest” stuff is often a costly mistake, but using obsolete technology can be equally costly (an example is the London Tube system, where every escalator is different and repairs have to be hand-tooled, resulting in massive costs and delays. The bean-counters won’t authorise the extra cost to get them all modernised, though, because that’s “cost now” as opposed to “cost next year”…).

>>(And as for the European space programme, it hasn’t advanced much since
>>the 50s. But RAH nuked Europe in so many timelines anyway…)
>
> Pft. The Ariane is a decent series of launch vehicles, nicely
>supplying a viable niche to the tune of *two thirds* of the international
>launch market.

It works. But it’s not much advanced in 50 years (and that which has been changed has had a series of bad quality checking).

>The space-related activities which can actually make money
>are subject to vigourous competition. It’s just in the 1940s and 1950s
>it was not clear to the writers what activities those would b