Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 10-11-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT No Topic – Planning Session

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 10-11-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

No Topic – Planning Session

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Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Now it’s working

ddavitt: great

ddavitt: so; good news on Connie

DavidWrightSr: I haven’t heard back from her on getting set up. I expect I will sometime soon.

djindalian has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: A newcomer?

ddavitt: Sure; or she is doing it on her own

ddavitt: Hi there.

DavidWrightSr: Hi. djin

djindalian: Sorta its djinn/dave hi y’all

ddavitt: I meant Connie, not you djinn sorry:-)

DavidWrightSr: Welcome to the group. I don’t believe you have been here before have you?

DavidWrightSr: Of course, I’ve seen you a lot on afh

djindalian: no, its usually pretty inconvienient for me. Off work today though

ddavitt: Glad you could make it

djindalian: me too.

ddavitt: No chat scheduled though; we are going to try and get a schedule sorted out

ddavitt: If you have any thoughts on future topics that would be great

djindalian: whats the discussion tonite?

ddavitt: New ideas always welcome

djindalian: oops

ddavitt: None tonight

ddavitt: No problem

ddavitt: We may have a guest author soon; Conie Willis

DavidWrightSr: We kind of let things slip through the cracks what with everything going on.

ddavitt: Connie that is.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got to find some of her works, Any suggestions

djindalian: thats cool, I liked ‘to say nothing of the dog’

ddavitt: I enjoyed To say Nothing of the Dog

ddavitt: And one she did with Cynthia Felice, promised Land

DavidWrightSr: I’ll try to find them

djindalian: In fact, I read it cause I recognized the title, because Kip’s dad read ‘3 men in a boat’

ddavitt: Doomsday Book was good too…but I wasn’t so keeon on lincoln’s dreams; gripping but a flat ending somehow

maikoshT has entered the room.

ddavitt: Yes; she dedicates the book to Heinlein

ddavitt: I remember going after JKJ’s book after reading HSSWT when I was 11

ddavitt: I wanted to know about opening that can!

DavidWrightSr: I’ve downloaded it but haven’t had a chance to read it yet.

ddavitt: It’s very funny

djindalian: really funny

ddavitt: The soppy bits are funny too…not sure if that was intentional or not

djindalian: I always thought it was

ddavitt: I think they were, AG thinks they were serious

ddavitt: He was a Victorian writer; they did go in for hearts and flowers

ddavitt: But they are so overdrawn and usually something funny happens to interrupt the musings so i think they were a joke

ddavitt: Meeting them in TSNOTD was great

djindalian: That was funny, recognized them right away.

ddavitt: Have you read the sequel?

ddavitt: About the bike trip round Germany?

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

djindalian: no didn’t even know about it

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening all.

ddavitt: That is just as funny but has chilling bits when you realise WW1 was round the corner

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jim.

ddavitt: Hi there Jim, nice to see you

djindalian: hi

ddavitt: Three men On The Bummel

ddavitt: Probably can download it

djindalian: cool!

ddavitt: we have no topic Jim; just going to sort out a schedule if possible

ddavitt: How about your mars talk?

ddavitt: I saw you volunteer:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL

ddavitt: You would enjoy hosting it

NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t think we are ready with it for tonight.

ddavitt: Oh no, but we can work it in and set a date, right?

NuclearWasteUSN: Certainly

NuclearWasteUSN: And you can even volunteer me to host it.

ddavitt: Just discussing Connie Willis as she is going to be guesting soon

ddavitt: I wil do:-):-)

ddavitt: How about 25/27 oct?

ddavitt: Or is Connie down for that?

NuclearWasteUSN: Do we want to call for all the Martians the group can come up with, or should we limit it somehow?

ddavitt: Have to limit it to books people can read in the time

ddavitt: No point having too many…

ddavitt: Concentrate on H books and a couple of others maybe

ddavitt: I haven’t read rainbow mars

maikoshT: I suggested 25/27 for Connie, but haven’t had confirmation yet

ddavitt: couldn’t get into it but I will try again

NuclearWasteUSN: More fantasy than SF, but a fun read, just to see all the Martians again

ddavitt: well, you can be thinking about it Jim and doing a lead off post for afh

ddavitt: Can save it until the date is confirmed

ddavitt: usually that gets posted the Monday or so after the saturday chat

NuclearWasteUSN: No prob, will leave the dates open until we know for Connie.

ddavitt: Great!

ddavitt: There, that’s two sorted…

NuclearWasteUSN: Rainbow Mars has a very slow start. I put it down twice.

ddavitt: (This is easy)

ddavitt: I love their books usually..

ddavitt: especially the Dream park and Heorot ones

ddavitt: I want to go to Dream park one day!

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL I want to go to the Ring World

ddavitt: Now again, couldn’t get into those…

ddavitt: Oh well…

NuclearWasteUSN: Got a bit repetitive.

ddavitt: Dave, what was the position on Robert Crais again?

ddavitt: Is he available later on in the year?

NuclearWasteUSN: By the end I wanted the puppeteer to kill Louis.

maikoshT: I have never had any response from him. I don’t believe that the address I had for him was good

ddavitt: Don’t tell me! I may read them someday…I have one on my shelves I think

ddavitt: Did AG speak to him though at the book signing? memory going

maikoshT: I’m not sure. I know he spoke to Connie

ddavitt: And Felicia said she asked Lois Bujold to come

ddavitt: We could follow up on that maybe

ddavitt: djinn; anything you’d like to see discussed?

djindalian: nothing special

ddavitt: I know we had a poetry topic in the pipeline

ddavitt: Looking at the way H’s favourites influenced the books; Kipling, tennyson etc

ddavitt: That’s another one that needs some reading

ddavitt: Need an easy one or two as well

ddavitt: Ones people can discuss without too much effort involved; especially as they get busy with Christmas and such

ddavitt: We have had our Thanksgiving; halloween next

NuclearWasteUSN: An easy topic seems harder to come up with.

ddavitt: we never discussed the con either

ddavitt: but that moment has passed perhaps

ddavitt: I would have liked to hear about the panel discussing farmer in the Sky that AG was part of

NuclearWasteUSN: the con of which pro?

ddavitt: :-)world con

ddavitt: with that awful pun..millenium philcon

ddavitt: ,groan>

ddavitt: or giggle…depending

ddavitt: holidays in Heinlein…that’s easy..he didn’t seem to have any

ddavitt: I don’t recall Christmas on the Moon?

maikoshT: A lot happened to Kip over the Labor Day weekend :-)

ddavitt: True!

ddavitt: And he got to do it twice

ddavitt: I never knew what that was as a child in the Uk; we don’t have it

NuclearWasteUSN: ISTR a reference to Christmas on the moon, and there is the Diner in Cliff and the Calories.

ddavitt: have August bank Holiday on the 30th

ddavitt: But the characters don’t all sit down and sing caros sort of thing

ddavitt: carols

ddavitt: It has become irrelevant on Mars, venus…

NuclearWasteUSN: Or was not part of the story.

ddavitt: when there’s no December, how can there be a Dec 25?

NuclearWasteUSN: True.

ddavitt: may have to do with religion and not wanting the books to be connected to one

djindalian: wasn’t one of Mannie’s family a preacher?

ddavitt: But christmas is, to many, a secular event

ddavitt: with the Sabbath on a saturday

ddavitt: that was a bit of a dig I always felt

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, Greg I think.

maikoshT: Sabbath is Saturday :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Either that or a reference to the 7th Day Adventists

ddavitt: mannie didn’t have feelings about the faith; he just liked Greg and didn’t want to hirt his feelings

NuclearWasteUSN: Or the Jewish faith

maikoshT: We Orthodox distinguish between Sabbath and Sunday

ddavitt: Is it? I’m all confused now

ddavitt: Sorry.

maikoshT: No Problemo

ddavitt: Anyhow, the reference to them calculating it seemed to be a bit of a joke

NuclearWasteUSN: IIRC Sundown friday to sundown Saturday.

maikoshT: True

ddavitt: I’m going to go check it; brb

NuclearWasteUSN: Alex mentioned Christmas, but in just as backhanded a way. Not much celebration.

ddavitt: ah!

NuclearWasteUSN: Si?

ddavitt: sundown Tuesday to wednesady

ddavitt: spelling!

ddavitt: in the local time of the garden of eden

NuclearWasteUSN: OK, that works.

ddavitt: was THE sabbath

ddavitt: for Greg

ddavitt: most Loonies, it was Sunday

NuclearWasteUSN: Alex also mentioned the millenial calculations, and the calculations for the age of the Earth, and how no two groups could agree, so he used brackets.

ddavitt: I knew it was something different

ddavitt: Yes; all that discussion of dates in job was interesting.Wonder how much research H did>

ddavitt: And if he found it amusing..

NuclearWasteUSN: Probably background from his youth.

ddavitt: Yes..that comes through a lot in that book

ddavitt: I remember the revival tents coming to my town

NuclearWasteUSN: I remember discussion of the same people and dating at Kings Christian School in Lemoore growing up.

ddavitt: Figures are slippery

NuclearWasteUSN: And figurers are sliperier

ddavitt: Too true!

ddavitt: Alex dismissing fossil evidence made me smile wryly

ddavitt: Maybe on his world, it was only young

ddavitt: not millions of years old

NuclearWasteUSN: I have seen the same thing in politics, science, etc.

ddavitt: what, ignore facts that don’t fit your pet theory?

NuclearWasteUSN: Perhaps Mr. Hammes contention that all systems of belief are religions has something to it.

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, exactly that.

ddavitt: I could accept that to a certain extent

NuclearWasteUSN: Or discount them with another contrived theory.

ddavitt: You can make a god out of anything

ddavitt: if you try hard enough

NuclearWasteUSN: Except me.

NuclearWasteUSN: If nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve.

ddavitt: You don’t want to be worshipped and adored, Jim/:-)

djindalian: Church of Nuke

ddavitt: Has a ring to it

NuclearWasteUSN: Nope, I like arguing too much.

NuclearWasteUSN: Been having way too much fun of late.

ddavitt: I would like to be world dictator and sort things out but not a goddess

NuclearWasteUSN: I am waiting for LV to notice the Bugs Bunny gambit.

ddavitt: And I would only be it until things were tidy

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL

NuclearWasteUSN: Famous last words

ddavitt: I haven’t been following it much so that means nothing but it sounds fun

ddavitt: You don’t trust me? ,quiver of lip>

ddavitt: It wouldn’t take long to sort out.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have taken his usual position and he is arguing mine. He is gradually coming around to my way of thinking just by being denied his usual tools

ddavitt: I’ve coped with birthday parties for 6 year olds; i can handle anything

djindalian: hmmm…. there are some heads of state that could use a good spanking…

NuclearWasteUSN: Ever gone cutting wood with three year olds?

ddavitt: LV is Ok; he has been around long enough to be part of the bar furniture

NuclearWasteUSN: I like LV, just disagree with his politics.

djindalian: LV seems to have mellowed quite a bit too.

ddavitt: I am in charge at the school bus stop most days and am getting a reputation for being firm but fair…

NuclearWasteUSN: Then again, I disagree with most everyone’s politics.

ddavitt: And I’m bigger than them of course..

ddavitt: I don’t have any as such…just certain ways I think about things

ddavitt: I can’t label myself as anything in particualr

NuclearWasteUSN: I live near the high school. Had the kids convinced I ate people so they did not hang out in the alley, but now some of the kids I know are in high school. *sigh* I have to clean up after them every day now.

maikoshT: BTW, if there is anything that you wish to have deleted from the log, please let me know.

ddavitt: I just wish people would be more like me and my friends

ddavitt: Nice that is :-)

ddavitt: i pity the man whose garden is by the stop

ddavitt: the little brats keep running all over it,, onto the road, throwing balls, stones as cars go by

ddavitt: I hold Eleanor right by me and glare

ddavitt: But now I tell ’em off

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh goodness I am in heaven.

ddavitt: Why?

NuclearWasteUSN: My wife got me Applets and Cotlets.

NuclearWasteUSN: A candy from my youth.

ddavitt: what on earth are they?

NuclearWasteUSN: Have not had them in many years

ddavitt: ah..describe, I love candy

NuclearWasteUSN: Fruit with nuts and sugar.

ddavitt: wine gums and fizzy sweets mostly

ddavitt: in a bar?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes

ddavitt: I haven’t seen them before

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, little bites, about like a bite sized Snickers.

NuclearWasteUSN: There are from Washington State.

ddavitt: I know what you mean..we called snickers, marathon in the UK

ddavitt: but now the name has changed

NuclearWasteUSN: Never seen them outside of Washington, my wife has heard me talk about them and found them online

ddavitt: same with opal fruits becoming starburst

ddavitt: and oil of ulay, oil of olay

NuclearWasteUSN: http://www.libertyorchards.com

ddavitt: you can find anything online. Anone see Buffy last week?

ddavitt: They found the urn of osiris on ebay

NuclearWasteUSN: Try finding Tillamook cheddar for a reasonable price. *shudder*

NuclearWasteUSN: rofl

ddavitt: books though….I have found books I’ve lusted after for years.

ddavitt: Still way out of my price range but at least I know they’re there

NuclearWasteUSN: This is true, and books I lost long ago, along with title and author.

ddavitt: who makes Tillamook?

NuclearWasteUSN: Made in Washington/Oregon

ddavitt: ask OJ

ddavitt: he might be able to get it for you

NuclearWasteUSN: Tillamook creameries.

ddavitt: i miss the range of cheeses we had in the UK

NuclearWasteUSN: Best cheese in the world. Wisconsin is a poor second rate.

ddavitt: Hmm..I dunno about that

ddavitt: but I like very mild cheeses.

NuclearWasteUSN: You might like this area. Or the Tillamook Creamerie, wonderful tours.

ddavitt: David is the other way; loves Stilton, blue

ddavitt: smellier the better

NuclearWasteUSN: Extra sharp white cheddar

djindalian: stilton is good!!

ddavitt: I like double Gloucester sorts

ddavitt: It’s mouldy!!

NuclearWasteUSN: Sitting on the table warm so it is almost as spreadable as butter

ddavitt: smells like sweaty socks

NuclearWasteUSN: Tastes like ambrosia.

NuclearWasteUSN: Mellow cheeses have always seemed a waste of time to me.

ddavitt: chacun a son gout

NuclearWasteUSN: Like decaffeinated coffee, alcohol free beer/wine, bridal suite without a bed.

ddavitt: No; just a gentle, subtle taste

NuclearWasteUSN: You sound like my wife.

ddavitt: on granary bread with a good cider and lots of Branston pickle

ddavitt: a lady of taste obviously!

NuclearWasteUSN: She married me :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Good bread and pickles, now that I agree with.

ddavitt: ever had branston pickles?

ddavitt: They do have them in canada but they’re British

NuclearWasteUSN: No, we usually put up our own.

NuclearWasteUSN: (Only way to get a decent hot pickle.)

ddavitt: hot…you are like mu husband

NuclearWasteUSN: I will look for them next time I cross the border.

ddavitt: he loves spicy food, I hate it

ddavitt: Bp aren’t spicy

ddavitt: just tangy

NuclearWasteUSN: When I make chili I have to make a pot for her and one for me.

ddavitt: We are off topic!

ddavitt: This always happens…

ddavitt: food then alcohol take over!

ddavitt: :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Extremely, but then, I have not been volunteered to do the easy chat.

djindalian: causing hunger too

ddavitt: I will have to vanish in a minute

ddavitt: Baby has been a monster recently and I’m low on sleep

NuclearWasteUSN: I know. BRB going to cut some ham and cheddar and slap it on 7 grain bread

ddavitt: She was good last night so I’ve got fingers crossed

ddavitt: OK

ddavitt: So, looks like we can fit Connie in whenver she likes, Jim will do mars and…we need a quick topic to fill in a gap

maikoshT: So we have either Connie or the Martian thing next time depending on whether or no Connie gets back and lets me know that she is set up . Right?

ddavitt: ideas anyone?

ddavitt: Sounds about right

ddavitt: that’s the 25 ans 27 Oct

maikoshT: Right

ddavitt: and 8 and 10 of Novemeber

ddavitt: any books we haven’t done for a while?

ddavitt: they make easy topics

ddavitt: because most people know them well enough already

ddavitt: How about looking at the stories where resistance groups fight back and analysing the effectiveness of their strategies?

ddavitt: free men and Sixth Column for instance

djindalian: That might be fun.

ddavitt: Topical but sort of inspiring

ddavitt: Do we have a host here then?

maikoshT: Would that include the Venerian colonists in Between Planets or something more unstructured?

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: I was thinking more of when the US is invaded

DenvToday: Greetings all

ddavitt: but we could bring in BP, sure

ddavitt: Hi Denv

NuclearWasteUSN: Not sure.

DenvToday: Hello :-)

ddavitt: Just discussing topics for upcoming chats

ddavitt: About what Jim?

DenvToday: I can’t stay long. I have to be up early.

NuclearWasteUSN: Needed to scroll forward. n/m

ddavitt: we are about done I think

ddavitt: there wasn’t a topic tongiht so we ended up on food:-)

DenvToday: Always my favorite topic.

NuclearWasteUSN: How about some of the short stories as topics?

DenvToday: There’s a topic for discussion–RAH and food

ddavitt: Certainly is.

ddavitt: Comes into lots of the books

DenvToday: Indeed. He always makes me hungry.

NuclearWasteUSN: I would have to have my desk covered in snacks and apple juice.

ddavitt: Which ones Jim?

ddavitt: We did the FH ones fairly recently

NuclearWasteUSN: Any of them that we fancy, just throwing out an idea, not volunteering again yet.

ddavitt: Could look at the weirder ones in menace

ddavitt: or 6 X H

ddavitt: Goldfish Bowl, water is For washing

ddavitt: Thaose ones; the overlooked ones

ddavitt: You volunteered once; that’s enough:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Goldfish bowl is one of my favorites.

NuclearWasteUSN: Egads, I heard that in the Navy.

NuclearWasteUSN: Usually just before a nasty assignment.

ddavitt: Ok, I propse a few of those neglected stories as a filler topic for emergencies

ddavitt: With the one about resistance fighters somehwere too

ddavitt: Jim, dave will let you know which date is the Mars chat

ddavitt: And we’re all done!

DenvToday: See you all on Saturday.

NuclearWasteUSN: OK, I will work on the post and flesh out the topic

DenvToday: I do have my dates correct, don’t I? It’s this Saturday?

maikoshT: Sounds good.

NuclearWasteUSN: Bye Denver :-)

ddavitt: Looking forward to that

ddavitt: Well, no, not really Denv

DenvToday: Oh.

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: I don’t think there’s anything planned for this saturday

DenvToday: No wonder I’m confused.

DenvToday: A week from Saturday?

ddavitt: Tonight is a blank chat

ddavitt: two weeks:-)

ddavitt: on the 25th and 27th

DenvToday: I haven’t been getting the mailings.

ddavitt: it will be a guest author; Connie Willis or a chat on mars

maikoshT: And probably no need to meet this Saturday since we don’t have a topic.

ddavitt: No, and I will be in Algonquin park with the bears

ddavitt: so I definitelt won’t be there

DenvToday: I’ll see you on the 25th.

DenvToday: Bye ’til then!

ddavitt: Great

ddavitt: Night all

maikoshT: See you all then

NuclearWasteUSN: We don’t need to go to the park for that, we have a pair just outside of town here

DenvToday: Night

DenvToday has left the room.

djindalian: night

ddavitt: I don’t want to meet them..bears are scary

NuclearWasteUSN: Good night all. :-)

djindalian has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN:

ddavitt: See you all , thanks for the input

ddavitt: me too

maikoshT: Log officially closed at 10:20 P.M. EDT

ddavitt has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 09-27-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Heinlein and Racism

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 09-27-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Heinlein and Racism

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Heinlein Readers’ Group

AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001

“Heinlein and Racism”

Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday

Combating bigotry in all its forms was one of Heinlein’s most persistent personal agendas in his role as a public moralist. (And let us note we will be having this chat on Yom Kippur). With respect to racism, his usual approach as to include “minority” characters as major figures in his stories, without special comment about the fact, not revealing until the end that, for example, Johnny Rico (Starship Troopers) was of Phillipine extraction or implying ambiguously that Rod Walker (Tunnel in the Sky) or Colin Ames (The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) was Negro. His first juvenile for Scribner’s, Rocket Ship Galileo, featured three friends, one of them a Jewish boy, in an era (1947) when Jews were non-persons in this country, routinely excluded from public life. Thus we are encouraged by subtext and implication to see non-white and non-male characters as a functional part of the human drama.

In two instances, however, racism and bigotry were made a part of the thematic material of his books.

Farnham’s Freehold, written early in 1963, immediately after the Cuban Missile Crisis, through not published until late in 1964, is based on two themes — first, the Cold War dilemma of Mutual Assured Destruction: no matter who might “win” a nuclear exchange, the liberal values of Western civilization were gone for good — and what they might be replaced by didn’t bear thinking about. Hugh Farnham is a “less than” character unusual in Heinlein because he is a participant, in the middle of the Cold War betrayal of Western liberalism, bartering American ideals for his slice of commercial success. Farnham is also a participant in the second thematic examination: he wishes only well for The Negro as personified in his servant, Joseph (note that Joseph is not provided with a family name) but Farnham’s vision is warped by the pervasive racism in which he lives. He does not understand what he is talking about, as Joseph tells him directly. Grace and Duke exhibit a conventional pukka-sahib racism, and even Karen’s attitude is tainted by Black-Mammyism. Everyone in Hugh’s family circle is damaged by racism, Joseph included: when offered the opportunity to turn the tables on the Farnhams — take the “up” side of the power relationship — he unhesitatingly does so, though it means endorsing slavery as an institution. He has no personal moral commitment to liberal values.

The message of Farnham’s Freehold is that racism damages everyone it touches, on either side of the power dichotomy.

Both themes are framed for Heinlein within the larger thematic context of individualism — racism is an offense to the individual by considering it only as a member of a group and not as an individual with its own merits, and the Cold War is the political reflection of the same moral error: a contest of which social organization shall win: the liberal society of free individuals, or the Marxist and illiberal nation-state, mass society. This context is ignored by the pc types who characterize Farnham’s Freehold, like its ultimate source, Huckleberry Finn, as a racist statement. Jim in Huckleberry Finn is the only morally straight character, because Twain is condemning specific racist/hypocritical attitudes that portray the Black as subhuman; Joseph in Farnham’s Freehold cannot rest in this niche because Heinlein’s thematic position acknowledges an unspeakable truth we have permitted only Spike Lee to articulate.

Both books are condemned because they commit the ultimate sin against “nice,” against the shining, happy people, by making realistic use of the “N” word in one case, and by associating cannibalism with the dark-skinned inheritors of the earth (George Slusser even goes so far as to identify them as Black Muslims, though on what evidence is not apparent) — and yet a straightforward reading of both texts reveals them both as strong anti-racist statements. Heinlein again approached the same materials from the same direction in Friday (1982), but his message has somewhat evolved. The eponymous heroine is an Artificial Person — smarter, faster, stronger than you or I, yet damaged in her core by the bigotry she has internalized. He explores the mechanisms of damage by posing various incidents by which the internalized message of bigotry is enforced upon the self — Friday cannot resent rape; she is not a person. She cannot have a real family; nobody can love an artificial person. She sees herself as wearing the brand of her shame publicly like a scarlet letter, though she cannot, even with her superior senses, discern the scarlet letter of a fellow who has internalized and self-enforces the same brand of bigotry against himself.

Friday is damaged by racism — but it is not the damage Heinlein wishes to explore this time. The bigotry against the Artificial Person is a type of all bigotry — racism, anti-semitism, anti-feminism, homophobia, and the psychological damage is carried by self-hatred internalized. About this, there is something that can be done — and it is something that an individual has individual power over and control of. Friday has begun the process of self-healing (though the process is by no means complete by the time we leave her) because she has given up enforcing an internalized self-hatred. In the early part of the book, she enforces the nobody-could-love-me-because-I-am-an-Artificial-Person attitude she accepts without questioning or examination, and despite all evidence to the contrary. Gradually she comes to realize that the evidence is contrary to the attitude and moves her psychological commitment over to the evidence — a process that forces her to abandon the internalized rule of bigotry against the Artificial Person.

The Artificial Person is an oxymorony, for one can be a person only by being genuine, and the AP prejudice is symbolic of public hypocrisy. Empowerment exists, Heinlein says, in the commitment to truth. This is the same message we found in Stranger in a Strange Land, and carried out by the same trope — the examination of private truth versus public hypocrisy.

Heinlein took a strong anti-racist stance throughout his long career. Farnham’s Freehold and Friday are two of the strongest statements he ever made about racism; both are made in the context of Heinlein’s ongoing exploration of what it means to be an individual within a community. A morally self-responsible human being, he holds, cannot be a racist.

Bill
Good choices Bill but can I make a plea to also include The Star Beast in the discussion? This juvenile has not only a very strong black character in the shape of Mr Kiku (one might almost call him the major character in that he hold the power of life and death over Lummox and that is perhaps the ultimate power) but his sidekick is called Sergei Greenberg. I may be wrong but I always thought of this as a Russian/Jewish name and considering the time of writing (1954) this is another point to consider. Added to that is the racism between humans ( McClure seems to be covertly racist in his attitude towards Kiku) and between humans and aliens ( Kiku and Ftaemal being a shining example of this being overcome as friendship does what drugs and hypnotism can’t). In fact, the blurb on my copy, written by the Denver Post says,

“Heinlein never preaches directly and he never writes down…His underlying theme, I
think, is that not only are all men children of God and therefore brothers, but all higher
life-forms that men may encounter, some day, in the outer reaches of the galaxy…”

There is also Heinlein’s depressingly likely pressure group, lampooned mercilessly at the trial scene; The Keep Earth Human League, represented by T. Omar Esklund, Doctor of Philosophy. His speech could be used quite happily with only minor alterations, by any group of bigots as they orated;

“As is well known, ever since the inception of the ungodly practise of space travel, our
native Earth, given to us by Divine law, has been increasingly overrun by
creatures…’beasts’ rather let us say…of dubious origin. The pestilent consequences of
this unholy traffic are seen on every..”

Here he was mercifully cut short by the judge.

Going back to MacClure, consider this little chat he has with Kiku as he tries to persuade him to appear on TV with Pidgie-Widgie,

“The Secretary frowned.” I hate to insist, if it really makes you nervous. But Mrs
Murgatroyd asked for you especially. You see…” MacClure looked mildly embarrassed.
“…Pidgie-Widgie preaches racial tolerance and so forth. Brothers under the skin…the
sort of thing we all want to encourage. So?”

later, Kiku tells him a story about an African tribe, three centuries earlier, who were wiped out by machine guns used by Europeans demanding taxes. How does MacClure refer to these men who had guns of their own and used clever strategy to trap their opponents in a box valley?

“An ignorant tribe of savages.” Hmm….

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article, BPRAL22169 writes…

>Heinlein Readers’ Group
>AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001
>”Heinlein and Racism”
>
>Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday

What’s left to discuss, Bill? 😉


Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

>What’s left to discuss, Bill? 😉

*Sigh*

Bill
BPRAL22169 wrote: Farnham’s vision is warped by the pervasive racism in

>which he lives. He does not understand what he is talking about, as Joseph
>tells him directly. Grace and Duke exhibit a conventional pukka-sahib racism,
>and even Karen’s attitude is tainted by Black-Mammyism. Everyone in Hugh’s
>family circle is damaged by racism, Joseph included:
>snip
>Bill

I agree with your assessments of the Farnham household but I wonder how much they are formed by the current climate. IOW, how would that household have appeared to an average contemporary reader?

I also wonder how Barbara stacks up? Not too badly from my recollections of it. She seems about as free from racism as one can be and still be human.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>IOW, how would that household have appeared to an average
>contemporary reader?

I think the average contemporary reader wouldn’t have noticed anything — it was simply naturalistic characterization, but it sneaks up on you, and I think Heinlein intended that deliberately, as he exposes the different strains of racism, from Grace’s out-and-out “Niggerism” and Duke’s conventionally disguised Niggerism to the more subtle racism contained within Hugh Farnham’s country club liberalism.

It strikes me that Duke and Grace define one end of a spectrum, and Hugh and Barbara define another end of the same spectrum. I don’t think Barbara was “free” of racism, precisely; she strikes me as just a little too sweet to be perfectly convincing — I’m thinking she starts from Black-Mammyism but is working to overcome it. So I class her and Hugh Farnham both as “men of good will” who don’t really have a clue.

Now, on that spectrum, where would you put Joseph? I have to say he is closer to Duke and Grace than to Hugh or Barbara — an out-and-out racist.

Bill
On 2001.09.21 19:20:16, the amazing 7LT;bpral22169@aol.com>declared:

 

>…. His first juvenile for Scribner’s, Rocket Ship
>Galileo, featured three friends, one of them a Jewish boy, in an era (1947)
>when Jews were non-persons in this country, routinely excluded from public
>life.

This sounds way off – there were lots of prominent Jews, weren’t there? Though Dorothy Parker did say that there were two things she would never understand, the theory of the zipper and the exact function of Bernard Baruch :-)

 


Nollaig MacKenzie
http://www.amhuinnsuidhe.cx/rahfan/

>there were lots of prominent
>Jews, weren’t there

Yes, but — this is the same period when Groucho Marx tried to get into the LA Country Club on Wilshire in Beverly Hills and couldn’t so he said he wouldn’t belong to any club that had standards so low it would have him as a member, anyway. The “prominent Jews” who ran LA (the entertainment industry) actually had to set up their own country club on Pico across from the Fox lot.

There were prominent Jews, true, but they were still marginalized.

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010922225740.10622.00000290@mb-cp.aol.com…

>>there were lots of prominent
>>Jews, weren’t there
>
>Yes, but — this is the same period when Groucho Marx tried to get into the LA
>Country Club on Wilshire in Beverly Hills and couldn’t so he said he wouldn’t
>belong to any club that had standards so low it would have him as a member,
>anyway. The “prominent Jews” who ran LA (the entertainment industry) actually
>had to set up their own country club on Pico across from the Fox lot.
>

I was in the sixth grade when I first learned that Jews faced that sort of thing. I didn’t believe it at first because it seemed so ridiculous. It wasn’t long after that when we studied the Holocaust.

I was in a freshman history class when a classmate innocently asked “Who was Jim Crow.” This was in 1982, I believe. There is some progress, but not enough.

[William Dennis]
Bill Dennis, commenting on prior posts:

>”BPRAL22169″ wrote [replying to Nollaig]:
>>>there were lots of prominent
>>>Jews, weren’t there
>>
>>Yes, but — this is the same period when Groucho Marx tried to get into the LA
>>Country Club on Wilshire in Beverly Hills and couldn’t so he said he wouldn’t
>>belong to any club that had standards so low it would have him as a member,
>>anyway. The “prominent Jews” who ran LA (the entertainment industry) actually
>>had to set up their own country club on Pico across from the Fox lot.
>>
>
>I was in the sixth grade when I first learned that Jews faced that sort of
>thing. I didn’t believe it at first because it seemed so ridiculous. It
>wasn’t long after that when we studied the Holocaust.
>I was in a freshman history class when a classmate innocently asked “Who was
>Jim Crow.” This was in 1982, I believe. There is some progress, but not >enough.

In 1954, early in the summer before I started seventh grade, a librarian handed me a copy of Galileo to take home and read, telling me to come back the next day and see her if I liked it. I was too young to check the book out myself, as my card was a ‘children’s card.’ She also told me to discuss the book with my parents and report what they had to say to her.

After I read it that day, I talked to my mom and dad at dinner. My dad asked to look over the book. He read it for about a half-hour, commented to my mother that it was the first boys’ book he’d ever read or heard of with a Jewish boy character or one that mentioned ‘conditions’ in Germany during the late world war, returned it to me and told me it was fine with him if I continued to read such books. In fact, I hadn’t noticed the Abrams boy in particular until he mentioned it; but then I was eleven, and not then fully aware exactly how many blood relatives of my father went into the camps and never emerged thereafter during that war.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

“Lou Adornato”wrote:

BPRAL22169wrote in message

news:20010921152016.12398.00000073@mb-mn.aol.com…

>Heinlein Readers’ Group
>AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001
>”Heinlein and Racism”
>
>Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday
>

Bill,

Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain just how wrong they were.

Lou Adornato wrote:

>Bill,
>
>Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals
>dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be
>further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those
>books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain
>just how wrong they were.

This brings up what I think is an important point; the need to look squarely at those accusations and try to answer them and understand what might have prompted them. I have always, possibly, maybe probably, erroneously, thought that Heinlein was speaking through his character Archie, in Magic Inc. If you recall, a character in that is, “as black as draftsmans ink!” Like Mr Kiku, Dr Worthington is an African who has been educated at Oxbridge. He is also a witch doctor. Archie is shocked to discover that he is a Negro but;

“I tried not to show surprise. I hope I did not, for I have an utter horror of
showing that kind of rudeness.”

Later he says,

‘We white men in this country are inclined to underestimate the black man – I
know I do – because we see him out of his cultural matrix. Those we know have
had their own culture wrenched from them some generations back and a servile
pseudo culture imposed on them by force. We forget that the black man has a
culture of his own, older than ours and more solidly grounded, based on
character and the power of the mind rather than the cheap, ephemeral tricks of
mechanical gadgets. But it is a stern, fierce culture with no sentimental
concern for the weak and the unfit, and it never quite dies out.
I stood up in involuntary respect when Dr Worthington entered the room.”

That doesn’t sound racist to me…yet consider this comment by Slusser in his critique of Heinlein, ‘Stranger In His Own Land”. He has been discussing Time For The Stars and Double Star;

“There are more egregious stereotypes. The kind and saintly Uncle Alfred of
‘Time For The Stars’ has as counterpart here another gentle darkie, the
faithful errand boy Jimmie Washington. Women in both novels are either
helpless, whining creatures, or prudes – discardables. At their best, women
and Blacks are fit to be servants and adulators of the elect, no more.”

This is the kind of assertion that needs to be pulled to pieces and examined in the light of day, not shuffled aside in embarrassment in case it contains a shred of truth.

I believe that Slusser has made an error here because he is assuming that the depiction of some women as whiners or prudes is wrong. It isn’t. Some women are like that. Including them in a book that has other strong, admirable female characters ( Vicky and Celeste for instance) is allowable by any standards. By the same token, a black character who is in an administrative position ( as Jimmie Washington is) is not the same as a black character in a servile/slavelike position.

Go through Double Star and see how Washington is described; loyal, tight lipped, utterly trustworthy. He isn’t just a civil servant either; he is a member of the great parliament, representing the Lapps. It is a safe district…but so is Penny’s. They are not slavish characteristics.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Lou Adornato”wrote in message news:fBNr7.26091$Q6.1366255@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net…

>
>BPRAL22169 wrote in message
>news:20010921152016.12398.00000073@mb-mn.aol.com…
>>Heinlein Readers’ Group
>>AIM Chat September 27, 29, 2001
>>”Heinlein and Racism”
>>
>>Reading: Farnham’s Freehold and Friday
>>
>
>Bill,
>
>Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals
>dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be
>further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those
>books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain
>just how wrong they were.

In all fairness, I had to reread F.F. cause the first time left me wondering.

[William B. Dennis 2nd]

>In all fairness, I had to reread F.F. cause the first time left me
>wondering.
>

This may be a good opportunity to ask what about FF seemed ambiguous.

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010924231919.16706.00001038@mb-cg.aol.com…

>>In all fairness, I had to reread F.F. cause the first time left me
>>wondering.
>>
>
>This may be a good opportunity to ask what about FF seemed ambiguous.
>Bill

It was not ambiguous.

The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be racist. It had a white middle-class suburbanite who spoke fondly of his obedient black servant, up until the servant makes decisions on his own. It featured a society controlled by black cannibals, for God’s sake. Of course, from a politically correct perspective, portraying these things was the same thing as endorsing them.

I didn’t enjoy it and only after I reread if about a year ago (after I became more libertarian) did I begin to see the subtle way Heinlein was making commentary about race relations.


— William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com ,
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com and
http://mycoolwebpages.tripod.com

>It was not ambiguous.
>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>racist.

Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).

Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the time were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims. I think this was a mistake in approaching the book, on several levels. For one thing, it makes the commentary more “topical” than it seems to me Heinlein intended, at least on this point. I think the topical reference is profitably read to the Cuban Missile Crisis that happened just a couple of months before he began writing the book. I think in terms of its commentary on racism and bigotry, it is more correct to classify FF as a “philosophical” romance rather than a “topical” or “didactic” novel.

Bill
In article,

BPRAL22169wrote:

>>It was not ambiguous.
>>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>>racist.
>
>Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but
>there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).
>
>Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the time
>were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims.

Well, I think we can agree that the dominant level of society certainly thought of itself as black. Wasn’t there a section about Islam in FF? ISTR Hugh thinking the text he was reading was different from the version he read in the 20th Century.

The following comment is being relayed from Tim Kyger, who does not have access to this newsgroup:

And to add my $0.02 worth, Bill, WRT Slusser’s “Black Muslims” comment — /Farnham’s Freehold/ was written in ’63, published in ’64, and if I remember right, the Black Muslim’s don’t come to any sort of cultural prominence for about two more years — i.e., about ’65, ’66, around in there.

Heinlein surely was aware of the political and cultural landscape around him, but I truly doubt that such a marginal group was visible to him in 1963. And in 1963, the Black Muslims -were- marginal.

Slusser was reacting, of course; which was one of the things Heinlein wanted people to do when reading this book (IMHO of course). It’s -supposed- to make you uncomfortable. And, with any luck, one would then examine the source of the intellectual and/or emotional discomfort, and *think* about it…

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010925125235.26637.00001382@mb-mq.aol.com…

>The following comment is being relayed from Tim Kyger, who does not have access
>to this newsgroup:
>
>And to add my $0.02 worth, Bill, WRT Slusser’s “Black Muslims” comment —
>/Farnham’s Freehold/ was written in ’63, published in ’64, and if I remember
>right, the Black Muslim’s don’t come to any sort of cultural prominence for
>about two more years — i.e., about ’65, ’66, around in there.
>
>Heinlein surely was aware of the political and cultural landscape around him,
>but I truly doubt that such a marginal group was visible to him in 1963. And
>in 1963, the Black Muslims -were- marginal.
>
>Slusser was reacting, of course; which was one of the things Heinlein wanted
>people to do when reading this book (IMHO of course). It’s -supposed- to make
>you uncomfortable. And, with any luck, one would then examine the source of
>the intellectual and/or emotional discomfort, and *think* about it…
>
>Bill

IIRC, There are a number of native Africans who are Muslim and I had always assumed that it had become the dominant religion by the time Hugh and party arrived. I do remember the part about the Koran and how it seemed different to Hugh.

I seem to recall that OJ Simpson played a native african Muslim in ‘Roots’.

David Wright
This is forwarded from Andy Thornton — the unfortunate who started this topic months ago…

There is a strong element of Nietzsche in Heinlein’s writings but none, perhaps, more strongly than in his two books about racism: ‘Farnham’s Freehold’ and ‘Friday’. Ironically Nietzsche was usually portrayed as the intellectual progenitor of National Socialism before the recent surge in academic interest because of his numb nuts sister’s manipulation of his notebooks and image during her unfortunately long life. This simple-minded interpretation of Nietzsche depending, as it does, on ripping sentences out of context, a misunderstanding of the textual form of Nietzsche’s writings, and finally an inability to either read German or – more simply and commonly – inability to _read_ and then _think_ about what one has just read, is finally starting to go; but it is only finally starting to go and when Heinlein wrote both ‘Farnham’s Freehold’ (FF) and ‘Friday’ (F) the academic myth of “Nietzsche as Nazi” was the predominate consensus.

It is crucially important to grasp this misinterpretation as it is the foundation of misinterpretations of FF and F.

FF is a book about racism and it is a tragedy. Note the last word. Tragedy is the literary form wherein everything goes to hell in a hand basket. Hugh Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing throughout the book. He is acted upon rather than acts. He does not escape the slavery of the future but is rather kicked-out of the society by an act of noblesse oblige.

First important point: You can be the Master in the Power relationship and yet operate under the Slave Morality.

So now it’s time to define Slave Morality.

Slave Morality is, according to Nietzsche, the exact inverse of the aristocratic morality found in Homer’s poetic works. Master morality does not work on a Good/Evil but a ThingsDone/Things- NotDone scale. Killing another member of the aristocracy, just because battle is so much fun, is a Thing Done. Taking women and boys “into your tent” for your own sexual satisfaction is a Thing Done; Slave Morality says you should Love Your Neighbor and maintain celibacy. Someone operating under the Master Morality would kill someone who insults them; under Slave Morality they would turn the other cheek. In Master Morality if you see a ‘wrongness’ you vow your sacred honor and fortune to correct it; in Slave Morality you bow your head meekly and accept God’s or the Gods’ will.

Nietzsche is NOT saying one is “better” in ANY objective sense. What he IS doing is DESCRIBING two extreme poles of mores.

What Heinlein adds to this mix is a very low key analysis of Power (whom can do what to whom) Relationships. Hugh Farnham is initially the Master in terms of Power Relation (the scenes in the bomb shelter) and later the Slave in terms of the Power Relationships is throughout the book always a Slave in terms of Morality. (The only character, btw, who operates from the Master Morality is Ponce.)

In this way we can begin to see that Hugh Farnham, while the protagonist, is not a hero: Romantic or Morally. Hugh is a racist but one not usually depicted in literature or public discourse. Hugh’s racism is the gentle, suffocating, Slave Morality version: Joseph is “The Negro” or “The Unfortunate” or “Our Oppressed Brother”. Joseph is not seen as an autonomous individual; he is not _valued_ as Joseph. Hugh’s racism doesn’t kill the body. It merely kills the soul! Heinlein would have been familiar with this version of racism from both his upbringing in Missouri, including Kansas City, and his experience in EPIC. In the former he would have encountered the “darkies are just like children, so we have to take care of them” while in EPIC it would have been the “drug addiction is a valid lifestyle choice for those in the inner cities” attitude. The first, in the U.S. of A., is usually – but not always – seen in Southerners while the second is usually – but not always – noted in Northerners.

For whatever reason Heinlein does not attempt to “resolve” most of the issues he raises in FF – and to my mind why FF is one of his weakest books – but is content to merely describe, or depict, them.

Andy Thornton

forwarded by

Bill

This is being relayed for Andy Thornton:

>Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims.

Slusser’s main problem is that he is never willing to grant the possiblity that Heinlein is a literary artist.

His second problem is that he will not give a statement running counter to his thesis on page 165 the same weight as a statement supporting his thesis on page 37.

His third problem is a really irritating in- ability to get basic facts straight.

Andy

Bill
This is being relayed for Andy Thornton:

>black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims

Slusser’s assertion about Black Muslim’s in FF have the same truth as his assertation of body painting in SIASL.

That is: None to Speak Of.

Andy

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010925115126.01454.00001288@mb-fo.aol.com…

>>It was not ambiguous.
>>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>>racist.
>
>Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but
>there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).
>
>Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the
time
>were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims. I
>think this was a mistake in approaching the book, on several levels. For one
>thing, it makes the commentary more “topical” than it seems to me Heinlein
>intended, at least on this point. I think the topical reference is profitably
>read to the Cuban Missile Crisis that happened just a couple of months before
>he began writing the book. I think in terms of its commentary on racism and
>bigotry, it is more correct to classify FF as a “philosophical” romance rather
>than a “topical” or “didactic” novel.
>Bill
>

At that time in my life, I was a liberal. I believed it was my duty as a liberal to expose all wrong-thinking for what it was. My mindset was: If a book *portrayed* behavior I found objectionable, it therefore must be “wrong.” It was a very literal, very immature way of thinking. The subtleties of the book escaped me. Of course, there was a part of me that enjoyed works of literature that made me think. That’s why I kept coming back to Heinlein, even though college professors kept insisting he was fascist.

It wasn’t until about 4 years ago (I am 38 now) I finally admitted to myself I was more libertarian than liberal. I try to think for myself now and avoid advocating positions simply because that is what liberals are supposed to believe. Which is why I am now no longer a Libertarian, but a small-L libertarian.


— William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com ,
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com and
http://mycoolwebpages.tripod.com

“BPRAL22169″wrote in message

news:20010925125235.26637.00001382@mb-mq.aol.com…

>The following comment is being relayed from Tim Kyger, who does not have access
>to this newsgroup:
>
>And to add my $0.02 worth, Bill, WRT Slusser’s “Black Muslims” comment —
>/Farnham’s Freehold/ was written in ’63, published in ’64, and if I remember
>right, the Black Muslim’s don’t come to any sort of cultural prominence for
>about two more years — i.e., about ’65, ’66, around in there.
>
>Heinlein surely was aware of the political and cultural landscape around him,
>but I truly doubt that such a marginal group was visible to him in 1963. And
>in 1963, the Black Muslims -were- marginal.
>
>Slusser was reacting, of course; which was one of the things Heinlein wanted
>people to do when reading this book (IMHO of course). It’s -supposed- to make
>you uncomfortable. And, with any luck, one would then examine the source of
>the intellectual and/or emotional discomfort, and *think* about it…

*Exactly!* The first time, I read it, I could only comprehend the discomfort it gave me. It was years before I had the intellectual capability to grasp what I *think* Heinlein was really trying to say.


— William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com ,
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com and
http://mycoolwebpages.tripod.com

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>This is forwarded from Andy Thornton — the unfortunate who started this topic
>months ago…

[snip Thornton’s depiction of Nietzschism]

>
>
>FF is a book about racism and it is a tragedy. Note the last word. Tragedy is
>the literary form wherein everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

Uh, actually I prefer a stricter definition before I apply the label ‘tragedy.’ “Goes to hell in a hand basket” is a little looser than ‘protagonist destroyed by his own hubris,’ e.g., ‘fails to learn the lesson,’ or some such more classic definition. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket in Catch-22. Does that make it a tragedy?

>Hugh
>Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing
>throughout the book.

Sez who? PPOR.

>He is acted upon rather than acts. He does not escape
>the slavery of the future but is rather kicked-out of the society by an act of
>noblesse oblige.

Well, isn’t that something like what Frye calls low-mimetic? Most of modern-day realistic fiction deals with actors who are accusative case rather than nominative. I rather thought he ‘acted’ rather badly (for a slave who should be grateful to the actor granting him noblesse oblige) by trying to destroy the world of the noble Ponce who stupidly obliged him by leaving open one tiny opening that Hugh took advantage of when he sent the bomb back to destroy Ponce and his world.

>First important point: You can be the Master in the Power relationship and yet
>operate under the Slave Morality.
>
>So now it’s time to define Slave Morality.
>
>Slave Morality is, according to Nietzsche, the exact inverse of the
>aristocratic morality found in Homer’s poetic works. Master morality does not
>work on a Good/Evil but a ThingsDone/Things-
>NotDone scale. Killing another member of the aristocracy, just because battle
>is so much fun, is a Thing Done. Taking women and boys “into your tent” for
>your own sexual satisfaction is a Thing Done; Slave Morality says you should
>Love Your Neighbor and maintain celibacy. Someone operating under the Master
>Morality would kill someone who insults them; under Slave Morality they would
>turn the other cheek. In Master Morality if
>you see a ‘wrongness’ you vow your sacred honor and fortune to correct it; in
>Slave Morality you bow your head meekly and accept God’s or the Gods’ will.
>
>Nietzsche is NOT saying one is “better” in ANY objective sense. What he IS
>doing is DESCRIBING two extreme poles of mores.

His version, of course. What’s a poor low mimetic protagonist, under Nietzsche’s scheme of things, to do? Has to have a ‘slave morality,’ otherwise he couldn’t be low mimetic (or anything like most of us — not to suggest anyone else reading here but myself is low-mimetic — the rest of you all could all be (possibly are: you read Heinlein) Heroes and Gods — I just know I ain’t.) and would have to be either a God or a Hero or a sociopathic villain anti-hero, otherwise. Maybe like Lazarus Long in his less attractive portrayals? (Nice to read about, but darned hard to emulate IRL).

>What Heinlein adds to this mix is a very low key analysis of Power (whom can to
>what to whom) Relationships. Hugh Farnham is initially the Master in terms of
>Power Relation (the scenes in the bomb shelter) and later the Slave in terms of
>the Power Relationships is throughout the book always a Slave in terms of
>Morality. (The only character, btw, who operates from the Master Morality is
>Ponce.)

That’s ’cause Ponce is a God; just ask him. Sometimes, depending on what stuff I’m smoking, I think, as Lenny Bruce did, I’m a god too — but my wife always brings me back to Earth quickly with a word or two.

>In this way we can begin to see that Hugh Farnham, while the protagonist, is
>not a hero: Romantic or Morally.

I agree he’s not a Hero. Can’t be if he’s to be very realistic, or a human operating outside a fantasy. Now Elias was a Hero. He was taken bodily into Heaven. There was no ‘heaven’ for Achilles, so he had to sit in the underworld with the rest of the shades; a clear problem in the classic heroic tale. But Hercules got promoted to mini-God, and got out of Hades. Roland, of course, goes to Heaven along with Oliver and the rest of the gang — but they were Christians, lucky them; Arthur to Avalon; etc. — a much better solution; and Oscar gets to go back hang out with Star, and go ‘a-heroing’ again possibly ad infinitum along with Rufo once he makes Hero First Class, and even gets to return to the heaven of the twenty universes he’s found thanks to Star after coming back to “Urth,” and finding it wanting.

[snip description of patronizing liberal racism common to the 1960s — and
earlier, both versions]

>For whatever reason Heinlein does not attempt to “resolve” most of the issues
>he raises in FF – and to my mind why FF is one of his weakest books – but is
>content to merely describe, or depict, them.

Why does he have to “resolve” issues?; and please define what you mean by a resolution. You’ve suggested Hugh doesn’t learn anything; and I’d like to hear your proof — at first blush it appears to me that you’re simply speculating on his state of mind at the end. What was he supposed to have learned, exactly, if, in your view, Heinlein had chosen to ‘resolve’ the issues? And why do you presume to say he didn’t learn it? As I said: PPOR.

And while we’re at it, do you think Heinlein ‘resolved’ the issues (or any issue) in Friday?

Bill: please pass this to Andy for his reply, for whom and which, as we three know, I always will endeavor to have ample smoke and mirrors available to confuse the audience, if not rebut.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

Relayed from Andy Thornton, who does not have access to this newsgroup but who started it all nevertheless and is realio-trulio to blame for It All:

I wrote:

>>FF is a book about racism and it is a tragedy. Note the last word. Tragedy is
>>the literary form wherein everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

Mr. David M. Silver has replied:

>Uh, actually I prefer a stricter definition before I apply the label ‘tragedy.’
>”Goes to hell in a hand basket” is a little looser than ‘protagonist destroyed by
>his own hubris,’ e.g., ‘fails to learn the lesson,’ or some such more classic
>definition. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket in Catch-22. Does that make it a tragedy?

I reply:

Actually Catch-22 is a Satire or what Frye would call an “Anatomy”. These thingie’s have different rules and are not on the Comedic/Tragic range or scale of literary works. The most generalized definition would have to be: a Tragedy is a story wherein the protagonist is not intergrated into a society when the plot comes to an end. Whereas Comedy is when the protag is so integrated.

[Editorial comment: the ever lit’ry Mr. Thornton means the dynamic of a tragic story is based on separation of the tragic protagonist from his society. The hamartia or tragic flaw of a Greek tragic protagonist marks that particular type of tragedy, but not tragedy as a literary genre. Back to Mr. Thornton:]

I said:

>>Hugh Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing
>>throughout the book.

Mr. Silver said:

>Sez who? PPOR.

I reply:

Sez me! Wanna make somethin’ outah it, buddy? 😉

(What does PPOR mean?)

You make a good point when you analyize the Hugh Farnham character as low-mimetic. ( I am currently 1,500 miles from my reference shelf so this definition is off the top of my head but the low-mimetic character is what Northrup Frye uses to describe a characters and/or literary works that have a knowledge and morality less than ours. I trust Mr. Silver will correct this definition.) In fact I would go so far as to say that by doing so you’ve cracked the core, speaking LitCrit, of the work. This is meant seriously: Kudos to you. And, of course, that means Heinlein is being true to his character when he has him following Slave Morality – the schmuck can’t do anything else.

Which also points to the solution previous critics have had with FF, when they bothered to notice it at all. You’ve got to understand the literary form in order to base a critique.

And what the devil does PPOR stand for?

Onward …

But any literary work is greater, or lesser, than the mere form. What Heinlein doesn’t do is resolve the intellectual theme (the Logos/Dianoia) of the work. Hugh’s only remark about the Slave/Master-Morality/Power matrix is when he says after the return something on the order of ‘When I had power I didn’t use it very well. Ponce used his power much better than I’. So the Power issue is resolved but nowhere is the Morality theme finished.

(Note, by the way, how closely Joseph in FF follows his namesake in the Bible.)

By “resolved” I mean having a character acknowledge an underlying theme through word or action and “round” it off in some manner. Like Heinlein did in the Upper Room in the last part of SIASL in the conversation between Jubal and Mike. Or in Catch-22 when Yossarian breaks-out of the the situational insanity by running away; i.e. removing himself from the situation and thereby becoming sane.

How one gets this done in a low-mimetic work is the test of the artist and, I think, Heinlein didn’t do this job in FF.

All through-out the book Friday wants to be part of a human family/community. At the end she is. That’s the (Comedic) resolution.

But in both FF and Friday Heinlein makes a very *interesting* observation: individuals can be free in almost any environment, but that freedom is only maximized when the individual is validated by a community. This is an extremely subtle and suggestive thesis. And, I might add, a _very_ American (don’t know Canada well enough to say) thought.

Andy Thornton

relayed by

Bill
BPRAL22169 wrote:

[snip]

>
>Actually Catch-22 is a Satire or what Frye would call an “Anatomy”. These

Actually, in the classic sense, Catch 22 was pathos. The characters had no control over the events that shaped their lives. The term Catch 22 is a hallmark of pathos.

OTHO, in FF, the pathos ends in romanticism.

Allow for inflation, subtract the charity tax……$0.02.

>–

Art
————————————————————————————-

When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

—————-Rudyard Kipling

In article, amcnutt5@home.com says…

>Actually, in the classic sense, Catch 22 was pathos. The characters had no control
>over the events that shaped their lives. The term Catch 22 is a hallmark of
>pathos.
>

Naw, Catch-22 is a classical comedy. It *appears* initially to be pathos, except that in the end Yosssarian *does* take control of his life (given the example of Orr).


Kirk

Experience is the best teacher…
But her pop quizzes can be mighty tough.

Kirk wrote:

>
>In article , amcnutt5@home.com says…
>>Actually, in the classic sense, Catch 22 was pathos. The characters had no control
>>over the events that shaped their lives. The term Catch 22 is a hallmark of
>>pathos.
>
>Naw, Catch-22 is a classical comedy. It *appears* initially to be
>pathos, except that in the end Yosssarian *does* take control of his
>life (given the example of Orr).

Not only classical comedy, it addresses the fact that Catches of classical tragedy were Official — and phony — constructs, in the various characters who spend the entire book reciting — as excuses, and submitting to — their various Catches, precisely as do the protagonists of classical tragedy.

Rather than “classical tragedy,” I prefer the term “propaganda.” It may have been Heller’s point, and can certainly be had without adding anything to the book but the existence of classical tragedies, but he buries it in a good yard about “idiots I have known,” or “what we did on our summer vacation.” But that Heller’s characters were all deliberately antiheroes is more than indicative that he knew it.


—+%
:oD_|
Frankly, my Dear, I don’t think the Clothes
are wearing any Emperor. Kids…
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>Relayed from Andy Thornton, who does not have access to this newsgroup but who
>started it all nevertheless and is realio-trulio to blame for It All:

[snip my quibble and his reply about ‘tragedy’ and his definition of of what Frye would call Catch-22]

>I said:
>>>Hugh Farnham, as a character, learns nothing, and effectively does nothing
>>>throughout the book.
>
>Mr. Silver said:
>>Sez who? PPOR.
>
>I reply:
>Sez me! Wanna make somethin’ outah it, buddy? 😉
>(What does PPOR mean?)

An acronym particular to this group: “provide proof or retract.” When I use it I expect to read a reply that draws a factual basis from the text to bolster the argument, detecting contrary factual threads within the work and distinguishing them from supporting a contrary argument.

>You make a good point when you analyize the Hugh Farnham character as
>low-mimetic. ( I am currently 1,500 miles from my reference shelf so this
>definition is off the top of my head but the low-mimetic character is what
>Northrup Frye uses to describe a characters and/or literary works that have a
>knowledge and morality less than ours.

Sometimes I think Frye means simply a character whose knowledge and morality equals our own imperfect states. YMMV

>I trust Mr. Silver will correct this
>definition.) In fact I would go so far as to say that by doing so you’ve
>cracked the core, speaking LitCrit, of the work. This is meant seriously:
>Kudos to you.

Dr. Richard Lanham, Professor of English at UCLA, retired, a Frye disciple, would possibly be a little proud of what effect his teaching had my poor effort but he’d tell me to try harder than that.

>And, of course, that means Heinlein is being true to his
>character when he has him following Slave Morality – the schmuck can’t do
>anything else.
>
>Which also points to the solution previous critics have had with FF, when they
>bothered to notice it at all. You’ve got to understand the literary form in
>order to base a critique.

You meant to say “problem”?

>And what the devil does PPOR stand for?
>
>Onward …
>
>But any literary work is greater, or lesser, than the mere form. What Heinlein
>doesn’t do is resolve the intellectual theme (the Logos/Dianoia) of the work.
>Hugh’s only remark about the Slave/Master-Morality/Power matrix is when he says
>after the return something on the order of ‘When I had power I didn’t
>use it very well. Ponce used his power much better than I’. So the Power issue
>is resolved but nowhere is the Morality theme finished.

I’d disagree. Look at the instance when the Grand Slam occurs, er, the second grand slam, or was it the third? Hugh discards the slave morality at that moment, at what is essentially the very beginning of the story. The rest is mere elaboration, restatement, and peregrinations.

>(Note, by the way, how closely Joseph in FF follows his namesake in the Bible.)

Lovely, isn’t it? Hugh as Potifer? [Was that how it is spelled?] But now, doesn’t Hugh then twist the story and echo the sequel: the Moses story vis-a-vis his relationship with Ponce, leading Ponce and his Egyptian armies into the flood of the closing of the Red Sea when he sends the bomb back? “Pay back” is hell?

>By “resolved” I mean having a character acknowledge an underlying theme through
>word or action and “round” it off in some manner. Like Heinlein did in the
>Upper Room in the last part of SIASL in the conversation between Jubal and
>Mike. Or in Catch-22 when Yossarian breaks-out of the the situational insanity
>by running away; i.e. removing himself from the situation and thereby becoming
>sane.

I view the intellectual theme a little differently. Hugh is the ‘adult educated’ man of his time, much like Owenby’s thesis in the work as yet unpublished but based on his dissertation suggests Heinlein advocated. Hugh got his learning, his social morality, out of books. Viz. his library selections, but note that his library selection omits the then early-1960s current sociology pap he undoubtedly also read.

At the point of the third grand slam (Hugh’s imagined last fling with Barbara as the second grand slam is arriving on target), Hugh has rejected the nicey-nicey teaching of contemporary self-improvement or family improvement writing, the same sort of break the rod, spoil the child junk that resulted in Ducky, er, “Duke” turning out the way he did. The same sort of writing containing a wrong contemporary viewpoint of the black man the family newspapers and magazines taught him.

The balance of the story tells the ultimate total rejection by Hugh of those social mores — “protect and be loyal to wife and family at all costs,” in an in extremis situation, mind you, and therefore a ‘slave morality’ appropriate solution, if you like — he finally has no intention of rescuing Grace or Ducky, what efforts he expended were rejected, and he leaves Joseph with them as well (Joseph figuratively screwed his wife along with his friendship by becoming Pharaoh’s stooge) when he takes Barbara and his new set of children back to the promised land, and closes the sea in around Ponce who he knows intends to pursue.

>How one gets this done in a low-mimetic work is the test of the artist and, I
>think,
>Heinlein didn’t do this job in FF.

I think, as I’ve suggested, maybe he did, beginning with the third slam as I suggest.

>All through-out the book Friday wants to be part of a human family/community.
>At the
>end she is. That’s the (Comedic) resolution.

In a way. I always view Friday as satire, “tend your garden” a la Voltaire; but I agree the ending is a ‘happy’ one.

>But in both FF and Friday Heinlein makes a very *interesting* observation:
>individuals
>can be free in almost any enviornment, but that freedom is only maximized when
>the
>individual is validated by a community.

And in an apocalyptic community, necessarily the ‘community’ follows what mores it self creates. Ponce and the boys ate humans. Hugh leaves behind his fat wife and fat gelded son for their future menu, if they are to have any further eating. And Hugh gets out of the business of raising ‘long pig.’

>This is an extremely subtle and
>suggestive
>thesis. And, I might add, a _very_ American (don’t know Canada well
>enough to say) thought.
>
>Andy Thornton
>relayed by
>Bill

Please punt back to Andy, Bill, if you find time.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

>Sometimes I think Frye means simply a character whose knowledge and morality
>equals our own imperfect states. YMMV

People who haven’t read Anatomy of Criticism may be lost at this point. Frye suggests, following Aristotle, that genres sort themselves out by their attitutudes toward the protagonists. They may be (1) Superior to us in both kind and status (i.e., gods), (2) Superior to us in status but equal in kind (i.e., the heroes of legend and myth); (3) Equal in both kind and status — and here we have the bulk of 19th century novel of manners, or (4) equal in kind but inferior in status (which gives us the modern “ironic” novel.

There are other possibilities less frequently used — a work about animals, for instance (Bambi?, Watership Down?), would give us inferior in kind as well as status — or possibly about a demon

The high mimetic deals with gods and heroes in fantastic or exotic settings; low mimetic deals with ordinary humans in naturalistic settings (these are rules of thumb). Myth and romance are the usual literary forms associated with the high mimetic — and Heinlein was extremely fond of romance forms. In fact, you can make a good case (as Frye does in several cryptic remarks) that science fiction is inherently a romance form. This seems to me to explain why Heinlein was attracted to the expressive possibilities of science fiction. I have said before that I think of Farnham’s Freehold as a romance of a king and court in exile, which explains the figures of powerlessness and dependency.

Bill
“James Nicoll”wrote in message

news:9oqbnu$1fq$1@panix3.panix.com…

>In article ,
>BPRAL22169 wrote:
>>>It was not ambiguous.
>>>The first time I read it (I was in college and strived to be a politically
>>>correct liberal), I just had an emotional reaction that this MIGHT be
>>>racist.
>>
>>Perhaps I am confused by the way you say this — it “might” be racist, but
>>there was no ambiguity (i.e., it was definitely racist).
>>
>>Historically, a number of the critics who commented on the book at the time
>>were deeply offended by the black cannibals figure — Slusser, writing 10 years
>>later, identifies them (for no textual reason whatsoever) as Black Muslims.
>
>Well, I think we can agree that the dominant level of society
>certainly thought of itself as black. Wasn’t there a section about Islam
>in FF? ISTR Hugh thinking the text he was reading was different from the
>version he read in the 20th Century.

He says something about the Prophet not being able to recognize the text they use.

NW
Jane Davitt wrote:

>Lou Adornato wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> Thank you. For nearly thirty years, I’ve heard the pseudo-intellectuals
>> dismissing RAH as “racist”, and even though I *knew* that nothing could be
>> further from the truth (and that no one who had ever actually read those
>> books could ever think so), I never had the elegance with words to explain
>> just how wrong they were.
>
>This brings up what I think is an important point; the need to look squarely
>at those accusations and try to answer them and understand what might have
>prompted them.
>
>I have always, possibly, maybe probably, erroneously, thought that Heinlein
>was speaking through his character Archie, in Magic Inc. If you recall, a
>character in that is, “as black as draftsmans ink!”

Such expressions were common in the 1940s, perhaps more honest than politically correct expressions today. How exactly do you today describe a very dark skinned “black” man? A “black Black.” Forgive me, but blank-blank to that. I keep remembering early 1950s political discussions my mother participated in when they had folk over for dinner and drinks. She’d complain about her thwarted efforts to get into restaurant management, by describing herself as: “I’m free, white, and twenty-one, but I can’t convince the people I work for that I can run a restaurant as well as any of the last six managers they’ve hired.” Finally, she bought a part of her own restaurant; and ran it very well, thank you, until her two bird-brained male partners got into a dispute over who was and who wasn’t ‘male’ enough (one of them had been ‘outed’ — he also happened to be one of the best chefs in town) and dissolved the business partnership to everyone’s detriment.

>Like Mr Kiku, Dr Worthington is an African who has been educated at Oxbridge.
>He is also a witch doctor. Archie is shocked to discover that he is a Negro
>but;
>”I tried not to show surprise. I hope I did not, for I have an utter horror of
>showing that kind of rudeness.”

Imagine what folk who encountered Ralph Bunche, or first saw a newsreel of the man at the United Nations felt.

>Later he says,
>’We white men in this country are inclined to underestimate the black man – I
>know I do – because we see him out of his cultural matrix. Those we know have
>had their own culture wrenched from them some generations back and a servile
>pseudo culture imposed on them by force. We forget that the black man has a
>culture of his own, older than ours and more solidly grounded, based on
>character and the power of the mind rather than the cheap, ephemeral tricks of
>mechanical gadgets. But it is a stern, fierce culture with no sentimental
>concern for the weak and the unfit, and it never quite dies out.
>I stood up in involuntary respect when Dr Worthington entered the room.”

Yet, I would criticize this statement because Ralph Bunche was emphatically within his culture. Nevertheless RAH had to make the point by referring to an African culture. How quaint! A Frenchman’s reference to the glories of the Sun King leaves me untouched; I want to know what France has done lately, aside from foisting le grande Charles on the world, and enticing Dulles and Eisenhower into taking over the fight in Vietnam.

>That doesn’t sound racist to me…yet consider this comment by Slusser in his
>critique of Heinlein, ‘Stranger In His Own Land”. He has been discussing Time
>For The Stars and Double Star;
>”There are more egregious stereotypes. The kind and saintly Uncle Alfred of
>’Time For The Stars’ has as counterpart here another gentle darkie, the
>faithful errand boy Jimmie Washington.

Well, then, there’s always Colin Campbell, just about as unkind and unsaintly as you would like; but Heinlein had to slip that business about the color of his feet in at us late in the novel. And we were into what? the eighties? when he found that necessary. Maybe the problem is the society, not Heinlein, if he still found that necessary in an adult novel by then.

>Women in both novels are either
>helpless, whining creatures, or prudes – discardables. At their best, women
>and Blacks are fit to be servants and adulators of the elect, no more.”

Slusser wrote when? Before or after Cat?

>This is the kind of assertion that needs to be pulled to pieces and examined
>in the light of day, not shuffled aside in embarrassment in case it contains a
>shred of truth.
>I believe that Slusser has made an error here because he is assuming that the
>depiction of some women as whiners or prudes is wrong. It isn’t. Some women
>are like that. Including them in a book that has other strong, admirable
>female characters ( Vicky and Celeste for instance) is allowable by any
>standards. By the same token, a black character who is in an administrative
>position ( as Jimmie Washington is) is not the same as a black character in a
>servile/slavelike position.

Of course, Slusser might come back by saying that any black portrayed by Heinlein as having leadership ability either eats his white slaves (Ponce) or eats Walker Evans (Colin Campbell aka Richard Ames); and what do you suppose, he’d inquire, Heinlein was trying to say by that? All Blacks are savage cannibals? I suppose you could reply that so too are whites: e.g., what does Duke keep calling Mike?

>Go through Double Star and see how Washington is described; loyal, tight
>lipped, utterly trustworthy. He isn’t just a civil servant either; he is a
>member of the great parliament, representing the Lapps. It is a safe
>district…but so is Penny’s. They are not slavish characteristics.

Neither I suppose was cannibalism. Still wondering what he was trying to say when he named my favorite female (pre-Maureen Johnson in To Sail) character Friday. Friday, aside from other things, shared one attribute with Podkayne and her Unca Tom, her literary ancestor was a cannibal as well.

I’m going to have to closely read an uncut version of Defoe’s romance again, I suppose. Read it as if it is a satire and see how Robinson stacks up next to the cannibal who was Marjorie Baldwin’s antecedent.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

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Lu11Bran: don’t read Safire

AGplusone: Usually I don’t either, but was bored

AGplusone: he’s off out-of-step as usual, saying ‘nuthin’s changed, except now maybe we’ll pay attention to reality for a while

Lu11Bran: anything intelligent or his usual blather?

maikoshT has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi David

AGplusone: fairly intelligent point

AGplusone: Hi, David two

DavidWrightSr: Hi to all again.

DavidWrightSr: Finally got everything set the way I want it.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Actually, that’s not a bad point — nothing has changed; we just got a demonstration of what people have been trying to get us to pay attention to for the last thirty years.

ddavitt: That’s ironic…

AGplusone: famous last words

Lu11Bran: is that an editorial comment?

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘got everything set the way I want it’

AGplusone: musta hit ESC\

pakgwei: wb

BPRAL22169: That will do it.

DavidWrightSr: And then I immediately bomb out on one. Yep, the old ESC

Lu11Bran:

Lu11Bran: People are now going to the supermarket expecting terrorists to jump out from the dried figs…it’s ridiculous

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: I believe you’re up to speed on all the pre-chat posts, Andy; how would you like to fulfill your destiny and kick off the discussion?

pakgwei: topic tonight?

BPRAL22169: True — everybody knows you can’t hide behind a dried fig. You need a bunch of dates for that.

AGplusone: …. wheet …. wheeeet …… wheeeet …..

ddavitt: Or a leaf at least

Lu11Bran: Our topic tonight is Heinlein’s depiction of racism in Farnham’s Freehold and Friday

Lu11Bran: and we may EVEN talk about the topic!!!!

pakgwei: hey… books Ive actually finished this time

pakgwei: :-)

AGplusone:

ddavitt: and star beast?

ddavitt: Pretty please/:-)

AGplusone: if you must, Jane

Lu11Bran: For you Jane, anything

ddavitt: I must, i will, i shall

ddavitt: How sweet!

AGplusone: I did reply to your post.

ddavitt: Thank you.

ddavitt: I saw it but have been too busy with guests

ddavitt: To reply

ddavitt: And that was the magic Inc post not the Star Beast one I think

BPRAL22169: I tend to think of the rather pointed anti-racist setting of Star Beast and Rocket Ship Galileo as the “practice” while Friday and FF is the theory.

ddavitt: He refined the technique you mean?

ddavitt: And they were juveniles…broader brush approach required?

AGplusone: juveniles vs. adult

ddavitt: GMTA

Lu11Bran: In both SB and RSG it was real background material, whereas in FF and F it was a basic building block of the works

AGplusone: semi-G

BPRAL22169: No — FF and F are explorations of theory, whereas TSB and RSG used his conclusions in setting.

ddavitt: speak for yourself….

ddavitt: But racism was rife in SB

AGplusone: xenophobic setting

ddavitt: I don’t see how that differs from FF

BPRAL22169: I rather think, though, that the comments about Worthington in “Magic, Inc.,” would be classified as “racist” by pcers.

AGplusone: I agree

ddavitt: But times have changed; that was, what, 50 years ago?

BPRAL22169: 62

ddavitt: I have a problem with all black people being classed as Africans

BPRAL22169: or 61, depending on how you count it.

BPRAL22169: I have a problem with “African-Americans.” Americans are not hyphenated.

ddavitt: Those third generation US are simply American to me

ddavitt: As are the Italians, germans,…

ddavitt: Why the hyphen?

pakgwei: ‘don’t look at me,… I always thought I was ‘human’

ddavitt: That too

DavidWrightSr: Notice, we never say ‘English-Americans’?

BPRAL22169: It’s a much prouder thing, IMO, to be an American than to be a human — as Aaron Sorkin said “This country has been a beacon to the world for 2 centuries…”

AGplusone: I always thought I was “free, white (nominally), and twenty-one”

ddavitt: Quite…

ddavitt: Well, I might beg to differ on that Bill

pakgwei: well then I’m a mutt

Lu11Bran: there is a connection, rapidly getting more historical, between being of overt African descent and low social/economic status

AGplusone: … and then they let eighteen-year-olds vote, wadda let down.

BPRAL22169: David W — “anglo-Americans” is in use.

ddavitt: If you, and your grandparenst were born and raised in the US, you’re American, end of story

BPRAL22169: If you choose to be an American, you’re an American, end of story.

AGplusone: Ah, but they weren’t, at least three of them weren’t.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, but that is rare, much rarer than african-american or irish-american etc. I think.

ddavitt: Complicated if parents were immigrants; one of my daughters is Canadian, one isn’t

BPRAL22169: How did Between Planets get in here?

ddavitt: But in a century or so..why cling to the past?

ddavitt: He was the ultimate confused citizen

BPRAL22169: Heinlein had a remark about particularism, didn’t he?

ddavitt: That was racist too; fog eaters?

ddavitt: leads to trouble

AGplusone: ‘citizen of the solar system’ — was that what he wanted to call himself

ddavitt: Citizen of the system, yes

Lu11Bran: and was told that that might mean something, someday… but not at that point

ddavitt: Identifying with a small group, not the whole, leads to problems

BPRAL22169: The theory he set out in “Politics of Patriotism” is actually related to his ideas about racism.

AGplusone: pp. in Universe?

ddavitt: In a way, Americans have a class system

BPRAL22169: Expanded Universe, yes — also Analog in I think January 1974.

ddavitt: ‘real Americans’ equate to royalty

Lu11Bran: yup, just not as fixed as the British system

ddavitt: I have moved from working clas to middle; that’s not hard

AGplusone: Yeah, if there’s a middle class left

BPRAL22169: It’s not the presence or absence of classes — it’s the permeability of the boundaries between the classes that’s characteristic of America’s (formerly) open society.

ddavitt: But isn’t a mexican who comes legally over the border and becomes a citizen looked down on more than a mayflower descendant type?

AGplusone: Depends on what part of Colorado you come from

ddavitt: All citizens are not the same..some are ‘better’

BPRAL22169: Depends on — GMTA

BPRAL22169: There isn’t any consensus as to class status any more. there never really was, but people pretended there was…

AGplusone: As in: I was here from Coronado, when did you arrive?

BPRAL22169: I mean, by mid 20th’ century.

ddavitt: In the Uk, it’s judged on your job, wealth, apart from nobility ( different rules)

AGplusone: What makes belonging to skull and bones any different from being nobility?

BPRAL22169: In the U.S. people do make the same sort of judgments — but they are regarded as individual (and sometimes as weaknesses)

ddavitt: It’s also something you can label very precisely without knowing how you do it

ddavitt: trailer park trash is a label

ddavitt: not a kind one, but it’s used isn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Those judgment are not regarded as affirming a system.

AGplusone: I like trailer park Barbie … she’s refreshing

ddavitt: You could say that about someone not actaully living in a trailer..it’s a type?

BPRAL22169: We may do some of the same thigns in the U.S. as are done in the UK — but they don’t mean the same thing in a social sense.

ddavitt: As in the Uk someone can be comoon and rich

BPRAL22169: Yes: All of Las Vegas is one gigantic trailor park.

Lu11Bran: As I see it the Brit’s still have a lingering “Master Morality” left from the aristocracy days –

ddavitt: common

ddavitt: tugging forelocks?

DavidWrightSr: We have a very racist saying here in the south. ‘Po white trash’ implying that …

Lu11Bran: yes, actually

AGplusone: but in Las Vegas you get out of the trailer park label if you belong to the LDS

DavidWrightSr: it would be expected from blacks, but not from whites

AGplusone: since they are the elite these days there

ddavitt: Maybe..not my generation so much tho; the royals have lost so much ground recently

BPRAL22169: Now that’s a scary thought.

Lu11Bran: An Earl (or Duke) can get away with stuff that wouldn’t be tolerated in a commoner

ddavitt: If they are the ultimate and they are shoddy, how can you respect anyone?

ddavitt: I have never been the curtesying type..but that’s just me

ddavitt: I don’t see how who your parents are define you

Lu11Bran: I’ve heard that one will get better treatment in the UK by affecting an upper class accent. I do not know if that is true

ddavitt: Oh yes.

BPRAL22169: Oxonian

ddavitt: I got lots of stick for my accent

AGplusone: Well, we don’t curtsy, but they still lay us off without warning after we bail out their industry

ddavitt: I’m from the Midland

ddavitt: I don’t towk rite:-)

ddavitt: I say ‘book’ not ‘buck’

BPRAL22169: Arrh doan tawk ri-yut, you mean?

ddavitt: Sort of but not that broad.

Lu11Bran: I’m from Kansas, meself

AGplusone: Sí, señor!

BPRAL22169: And we’re not in Kansas any more, Toto!

ddavitt: My friend at uni was from walsall; 40 miles away. We had trouble communicating the first few weeks

BPRAL22169: That’s true — no common language.

pakgwei: are you from england or Brooklyn?

pakgwei: :-)

ddavitt: But voice is important

BPRAL22169: Same difference.

ddavitt: England:-)

ddavitt: Potteries; you know, Arnold Bennett, Wedgewood pottery

ddavitt: Andy; rein us in, we are getting far afield

pakgwei: i know tupperware

pakgwei:

AGplusone: ‘Dazed and Confused’ …

BPRAL22169: You think we can extend this to get him out of the country, while we’re at it?

pakgwei: send him to england

pakgwei: :-)

BPRAL22169: Good idea.

pakgwei: wasnt the toipic racism?

ddavitt: err, thanks, I think…

BPRAL22169: Are we all on the same page in re: FF is an anti-racist statement?

ddavitt: OK, why did H make them cannibals in FF? Why go so OTT?

BPRAL22169: OTT?

ddavitt: over the top

AGplusone: Haven’t gotten many faxs asking whether bin Ladin’s camel is pregnant lately, but then I’m not in bidness anymore.

BPRAL22169: Ah.

pakgwei: i think FF was more observation than comment

ddavitt: He made them demons…worst nightmares..

DenvToday: Yes, I think it is.

Lu11Bran: He designed a future that would be a racist’s worst nightmare

ddavitt: Why did he do that?

BPRAL22169: Perhaps he was saying “look how much worse things could be”?

AGplusone: Deliberately so? Why didn’t he just leave it with them cultivated and kind?

ddavitt: That doesn’t really work for me

AGplusone: Instead of making them cannibals?

ddavitt: maybe David. Why not?

BPRAL22169: That wouldn’t work for the story — he has two conflicting principles:

ddavitt: Because that wouldn’t work with racists?

Lu11Bran: in a book about racism you have to push buttons, gouge egos, throw sand in the works

BPRAL22169: Cultural relativism: every culture evolves with its own values intact

ddavitt: But were many H readers likely to be racists?

BPRAL22169: versus the civil values of Western Civilization go down the tube.

DavidWrightSr: I personally don’t think that ‘racism’ is the main theme in FF

BPRAL22169: I don’t either.

ddavitt: Isn’t a love of Sf sort of saying that you are more tolerant of differences?

Lu11Bran: he’s not talking TO racists but ABOUT racism

ddavitt: You read about aliens

AGplusone: Ginny told me once that they liked Pat Frank’s stories … his post-apocalyptic involves a hero black man

ddavitt: If you can accept them green and with tentacles, a mere few shades of skin colour is nothing

BPRAL22169: Is that Mr. Adam?

Lu11Bran: this was during the height of the Civil Right’s Era… people were getting killed in the South

AGplusone: the Air Force veteran, no, Alas Babylon

AGplusone: and white villains

BPRAL22169: Right.

ddavitt: so if it isn’t racism was is it?

BPRAL22169: Andy, “what” was in the height of the civil rights era?

ddavitt: FF?

BPRAL22169: Pronouns, pronouns.

Lu11Bran: FF, wasn’t it written in 1963?

BPRAL22169: Can’t be — written in Jan/Feb 63

ddavitt: I tought you had stuff going on about then

AGplusone: not much

BPRAL22169: It was just ramping up at about that time.

DavidWrightSr: I think the main theme deals with ‘Power corrupts’

ddavitt: Wasn’t MLK killed in 64?

DenvToday: 68

Lu11Bran: 68

ddavitt: Ah..sorry

ddavitt: H ahead of his time again?

AGplusone: freedom marches began in late 50s ….

BPRAL22169: Same as Bobby Kennedy — ramping up for the 1968 election.

Lu11Bran: the Voter’s Right legislation wasn’t passed until … 64? 66?

BPRAL22169: That’s an important view of the subject matter — he was using dialog paradigms from before the Civil Rights movement.

AGplusone: Eisenhower sent in the 101st Airborne to Little Rock in 58, 59 …

BPRAL22169: Arkanas! Can no good come out of Arkansas!

DenvToday: None ever has

BPRAL22169: Not so far.

ddavitt: Would he have written Hugh differently in say 1970?

AGplusone: Told Faubus he’d nationalized the Arkansas Natl Guard and they could all go home.

ddavitt: Was he trying to make him PC for that era?

ddavitt: Are we judging him as lacking from our perspective and missing something?

BPRAL22169: Hugh Farnham’s attitudes seem conventionally “country club liberal” for that period.

ddavitt: Was that about as good as it got?

Lu11Bran: Don’t forget Heinlein was from the south (Missouri).

ddavitt: I mean, was Hugh a good guy?

AGplusone: I’m not even sure I’d go that far, Bill. They seemed simply in tune with the time for someone not from the south

BPRAL22169: I think he was trying to make Farnham PC for that period.

ddavitt: But NOW he seems condescending

AGplusone: country club liberal is an oxymoron …

ddavitt: I liked the point that we don’t get Joe’s last name

BPRAL22169: It wasn’t back then.

Lu11Bran: Let’s put it this way, the Commies in the ’30’s had a saying: “I’ll bring the folk singer, you bring the Negro”

AGplusone: country clubs are generally conservative, even back then

BPRAL22169: Heinlein always does such fascinating things like that with names.

ddavitt: It is typical though; slaves didn’t have last names

ddavitt: Or only that of their owners

ddavitt: Is that right?

AGplusone: Is there anything significant about the two towns of Farnham in England, Jane?

Lu11Bran: I’m convinced Heinlein modeled Joe on the Joseph story in the Bible

BPRAL22169: Well, yes, David, that was kind of the point of having an expression like that: someone who espoused liberal social values but didn’t act on them.

AGplusone: I agree with you, Andy

ddavitt: I lived near one of them; no I don’t think so

ddavitt: Not that i know of anyway

Lu11Bran: what does “Hugh” mean?

BPRAL22169: I always wondered what to make of The black Prince — couldn’t find anything in symbolical philosophy. But Potiphar does seem to work.

ddavitt: But didn’t Joe like Hugh?

ddavitt: Before they went forward?

BPRAL22169: And Joseph fell out with Potiphar because his wife was scorned.

Lu11Bran: Joe worked for Hugh, but I don’t think he liked him. I know I wouldn’t like the son of a gun

AGplusone: Hugh: prob. from “heart” or “mind”

BPRAL22169: I believe it was short for “Hubert.”

DenvToday: Actually, it’s short for “Hefner”

Lu11Bran: Ahh, I wonder – I wonder

BPRAL22169: Hsssss!

BPRAL22169: He did hang around with Heff a bit back in those days.

AGplusone: Simon Schuster’s 2d Collegiate ed, Websters … just says ‘heart’ or ‘mind’

Lu11Bran: OK, so what does “Farnham” mean?

AGplusone: … probably … just two cities in England so far as I can find

Lu11Bran: We have “Heart” or “Mind” of Farnham

BPRAL22169: “Ham” is a village — hamlet, actually. smaller than a town.

DenvToday: No kidding? Hef in the sixties. Non-apologetic sexism and hedonism at the Chicago mansion. Why not me, Lord?

Lu11Bran: I HATE NOT HAVING MY REFERENCE LIBRARY

BPRAL22169: I have thousands of books around me but not a single name reference book.

ddavitt: Hugh is Germanic, bright in mind and spirit

Lu11Bran: In that case what good are you?

BPRAL22169: But what about Hubert?

BPRAL22169: (I ask myself that constantly)

DenvToday: Yeah, what about Hubert?

ddavitt: Hubert is shining of mind

AGplusone: OHG

ddavitt: similar

DenvToday: Humber Humphrey should have retired the name.

ddavitt: barbara is strange, foreign..hmmm

DenvToday: Hubert Humphrey, that is.

BPRAL22169: “famous warrior” from the Germanic elements hun “warrior” and beraht “famous”. This name was introduced to Britain by the Normans. It was borne by two kings of Italy.

AGplusone: of course, Hugh Capet was the first Marshal of the Franks

BPRAL22169: That came from a meaning of names site.

AGplusone: ancestor of Pepin and Charlemagne?

ddavitt: Karen = pure. Very ironic

ddavitt: Pure of heart maybe

ddavitt: But for the time, not a good girl

AGplusone: Just a couple years ahead of the love generation

Lu11Bran: Darn, that was the daughter?

AGplusone: yep

ddavitt: with her shoes on..an eager beave…sorry

ddavitt: Yes, the one who died in childbirth

ddavitt: Duke = leader. Well, he tried

Lu11Bran: What is the name for the “other women”?

Lu11Bran: who goes back with Hugh

ddavitt: Barabara?

ddavitt: Foreign

ddavitt: strange

ddavitt: She was too, an outsider to the group

AGplusone: from the Latin, fem. of barbarus

ddavitt: A wild card in the bridge, playing cards analogy H uses in that story

Lu11Bran: She was the only one that seemed to have at least some grasp of reality

AGplusone: But she knew how to play by the book too, if she had to

ddavitt: She was an odd character

ddavitt: I didn’t like her much

ddavitt: Didn’t like anyone in that book much come to think of it

Lu11Bran: One of the problems I have with FF is my dislike of every character therein.

AGplusone: low mimetic chaacters ….

ddavitt: Nasty, small minded lot

AGplusone: you’re supposed to look down on them and understand their mistakes

Lu11Bran: with no redeeming social features

ddavitt: First part is easy

AGplusone: I thought Hugh had a few

ddavitt: I know :-)

AGplusone: Ginny tells me they modeled him on the guy who built their home in Colorado Springs, named Hugh too

AGplusone: but he didn’t have a wife who drank

ddavitt: That has to be a Leslyn connection

ddavitt: A way of H getting it off his chest by writing about it?

BPRAL22169: Well, I just tried to get a surname site from Askjeeves dot com and tried to wade through the dinosaurs and abbreviations.

AGplusone: I felt it possible

AGplusone: and only had a daughter, not a

ddavitt: Don’t annoy a writer; he’ll put you in a book…

AGplusone: Duckie

AGplusone: They liked him. he could build anything

ddavitt: Duke is the best of the lot….

DenvToday: lol Jane I’ll remember that

AGplusone: Duckie?

AGplusone: Hah!

ddavitt: Wel, if Grace did represent Leslyn she had a bad ending…

Lu11Bran: In FF it is a male who is dominant while in Friday it is a woman who is dominant during the crisis’…. does anyone wish to speak to that (little cat amongst the pigeons)

BPRAL22169: Not “represent” — he may have used some traits of his experience, but writers generally reprocess stuff.

ddavitt: Sure..to avoid law suits

ddavitt: And because reality isn’t always that interesting

BPRAL22169: No — that’s a side benefit; they do it because it serves their art.

AGplusone: Duckie is possibly the biggest weakling next to the english professor in Dora’s story (the one figures he could run the bank better)

ddavitt: Is friday dominant?

ddavitt: Isn’t she Boss’s puppet?

BPRAL22169: There’s also a freedom/license issue raised between Hugh and Duke

Lu11Bran: No, the woman in the Troika in Canada

BPRAL22169: Duke’s conception of freedom is that he will endanger everybody in the shelter.

Lu11Bran: (I can’t remember her name)

ddavitt: Oh, janet, sorry

Lu11Bran: Yes, Janet

AGplusone: He has the ‘right’ to endanger them

ddavitt: Yes, she seems to be

AGplusone: because he’s “Duke” … he has a right to a ‘share’ … because he’s Duke

AGplusone: rest on his father’s laurels

ddavitt: I don’t agree entirely with that.

BPRAL22169: Funny — the U.S. falls apart into balkanized states, so Friday can get her personal unity.

AGplusone: How don’t you agree jane?

ddavitt: Isn’t that a bit of a stretch Bill? Or do you mean as a comparison of themes?

ddavitt: Well, this is old road we are travelling David…

DenvToday: I must be getting to bed. Work tomorrow. I’ll see you all on Saturday.

DenvToday: Night everybody!

Lu11Bran: bye….

AGplusone: night Ron

ddavitt: and I don’t have FF handy to refute you with brilinatly chosen quotations

ddavitt: Night Ron

DenvToday: Night…

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: good, we’re even, you’ll have to make due with your memory

AGplusone: do

ddavitt: Duke is starting out at a disadvatage, thanks in great part to H’s neglect

Lu11Bran: make ’em up – that’s what everyone else does 😉

ddavitt: He is doing the best he can

ddavitt:

ddavitt: I never do that!!

AGplusone: Why? He’s a successful adult, a lawyer, bright, polished, obnoxious … what more did he need to sustain himself in Colorado.

ddavitt: Hugh humiliates him then expects loyalty. Duh…that’s so likely isn’t it?

AGplusone: He asks for it.

ddavitt: B didn’t think much of him and she is an outsider

AGplusone: Hugh should have simply shot him, and pushed him outside.

Lu11Bran: We’ve been going for an hour … does anyone want to take a break?

ddavitt: That would have shown what a hero he was?

AGplusone: Heroes survive. Dukes cause the boat to sink.

ddavitt: The group dynamics would have suffered from that

BPRAL22169: We just really got started; unless there is need, I say keep going for another 30 minutes or so.

ddavitt: Grace would have gone ballistic

AGplusone: No great loss.

ddavitt: B had just met him. Would she have slept with a man who had just murdered his son (her date)

AGplusone: Sedate her and hang her up in the larder for reserve supplies later on.

ddavitt: Well, maybe she would.

AGplusone: She didn’t like him, and was really there for Karen.

BPRAL22169: Oh, you’re really enjoying this, aren’t you?

ddavitt: Which of us?

ddavitt: This is an old, old fight

AGplusone: She was using Duke … as an entre.

ddavitt: An entree?

AGplusone: that one

ddavitt: Who was main course?

ddavitt: Oh, yes, someone else’s husband!

BPRAL22169: It was obvious they were at a restaurant…

Lu11Bran: what wine does one serve with long pork? a hearty burgandy?

AGplusone:

ddavitt: chianti?

AGplusone: only with fava beans

BPRAL22169: And fava beans.

BPRAL22169: Exactly.

ddavitt: How did H make it seem so nice in SIASL?

BPRAL22169: Did the bridge symbolism detract from what was going on, for anyone?

Lu11Bran: Bill and I can bore you for hours about that

ddavitt: That man could sell snowballs to Eskimos

AGplusone: That’s why I think btw, Andy, that the development in theme occurred almost immediately.

BPRAL22169: Andy and I can bore you for hours about anything.

ddavitt: Hey, I got the book; I’m a fan

AGplusone: I didn’t find it so. I played bridge then. Everyone did.

ddavitt: Wasn’t one of the titles a bridge one?

AGplusone: We all read Goren. yes, Grand Slam

ddavitt: I was totally lost with the bridge game

BPRAL22169: Yay. Yes — it was originally Grand slam

ddavitt: I can play it now but not at a level where I can see what’s going on

AGplusone: three grand slams …. :-)

ddavitt: In their game

BPRAL22169: I think it’s like the chess game in Through the Looking glass — it doesn’t matter if you don’t follow it.

ddavitt: True

ddavitt: It adds background

AGplusone: typical what you did after dinner, unless you were into wife-swapping

BPRAL22169: And interestingly, Bridge is a game of partners and partnerships — and the book is about partners, too, isn’t it.

ddavitt: And swapping them

AGplusone: that could come after the bridge game

ddavitt: Can we equate the characters to cards?

ddavitt: Hugh is king

BPRAL22169: Which is another thing you can do at the end of a rubber. . . (whistling, not going there)

ddavitt: Ooh, that’s so tempting to play with…

AGplusone: Duke is the deuce of clubs, Joseph is the black knave …

ddavitt: That could work…

Lu11Bran: why is it always called “wife-swapping” – why not “husband swapping” or ….. and here I thought this was a family chat

ddavitt: But Duke is a jack

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Lu11Bran: Duke is a jerk

AGplusone: naw … false Jack

ddavitt: It’s a Heinlein chat…

Dehede011: Howdy

AGplusone: trumped

ddavitt: Hi Ron

BPRAL22169: Yo

Dehede011: Hi Jane, Hi all.

ddavitt: Who is Joker? ponse?

DavidWrightSr: Revolving Rons

BPRAL22169: We’re working on Bridge game symbolism in Farnham’s Freehold at the moment.

Lu11Bran:me—->afh

BPRAL22169: On the Silver shores of Gitchigumie

Lu11Bran: Did I just call someone by a wrong name?

Lu11Bran: first name, that is?

AGplusone: Don’t think so …

AGplusone: David is me, and David is David Wright too

Lu11Bran: *Whew!* Thought I made a mistake (I should know better!)

BPRAL22169: You can be Andy “David” Thornton

AGplusone: If you pay the franchise fee.

Lu11Bran: And you can be Bill “David” Patterson

Lu11Bran: And Jane “David” Davitt

BPRAL22169: We’re all Davids on this bus.

AGplusone: married to David Davitt

pakgwei: *hideing*

BPRAL22169: Of course,she’s already got a David Davitt.

BPRAL22169: ok, David.

AGplusone: Wadda we talk about in two weeks?

DavidWrightSr: BTW, I sent an invite to Connie Willis, but haven’t received any response.

Lu11Bran: People, I’ve got to get-up and drive 800 miles or so tomorrow so I’ve got to go

Lu11Bran: thank you for an enjoyable evening

AGplusone: okay, Andy, see you … 800 miles is fun.

Lu11Bran: of the mild sort

AGplusone: Not something I’d necessarily do for fun anymore, but fun

BPRAL22169: Have fun. I have no idea what’s in store for us in 2 weeks.

AGplusone: How ’bout Kondo?

Lu11Bran: bye all *poof*

Lu11Bran has left the room.

BPRAL22169: It would be good to have another writer.

AGplusone: but it was great to have a topic to talk about …

AGplusone: even if we drifted a bit

DavidWrightSr: This was a lot more on-topic than the last one.

BPRAL22169: True.

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: I feel I has done my duty.

BPRAL22169: I’m going to check out afh and mail and then sign off. ‘Night, gents.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

pakgwei: nite

pakgwei has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night. Chet.

AGplusone: right :-)

DavidWrightSr: See ya later.

Log officially closed 11:50 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday Sept 15, 2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday Sept 15, 2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

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You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

maikoshT has entered the room.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will. Nobody here yet, but me and my alter ego.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t know if we will have many tonight. Jane is going to be late.

geeairmoe2: I’d noticed Jane’s post that she would be late and might need someone to open things up.

geeairmoe2: I’v got a few internet-related tasks to clean up. I’ll check back.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. I’m working on something too.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Will, David.

DavidWrightSr: Hi David.

AGplusone: crummy week, eh?

DavidWrightSr: Just told Ginny and Will that I have to be AFK for a while.

DavidWrightSr: I have to take my wife to get something to eat.

geeairmoe2: Hello.

AGplusone: Enjoy it.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll leave both of my copies running to get the log. Yes a very crummy week.

DavidWrightSr: Understatement of the century.

DavidWrightSr: See you later

AGplusone: see ya!

AGplusone: The century’s young.

geeairmoe2: Just finishing up some other internet tasks, so if I don’t answer, don’t be alarmed.

AGplusone: I won’t … sipping my wake-up tea.

geeairmoe2: I annoyed some people on Sff.Net’s group about the bombing.

AGplusone: who?

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny!

geeairmoe2: Hello, m’am.

SAcademy: Good evening everyone. David W. had to take his wife out to dinner.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hello everyone.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane.

geeairmoe2: Hi, Jane.

SAcademy: Hi, Jane.

ddavitt: I am here until L wakes up and demands food; David is at work.

ddavitt: Are you feeling better David S?

SAcademy: I willlhave to leave soon, have a very sore throat.

ddavitt: Sorry to hear that Ginny

AGplusone: better when I’m awake. How’s your flu, Ginny … just what I was about to ask

geeairmoe2: Sorry to hear that. Gargle salty water.

ddavitt: Hot whisky toddy with lots of honey

SAcademy: That’s a thought! Haven’t tried that yet.

ddavitt: It tastes nicer than salt water too :-)

geeairmoe2: It is nasty, but it always works for me.

ddavitt: I have heard that too Will

AGplusone: The whisky tastes better too.

geeairmoe2: As a non-drinker I can’t comment on the other.

AGplusone: saltwater tastes yucky

ddavitt: It’s medicinal Will

AGplusone: clears the sinuses

geeairmoe2: Not saltwater, salty water. A teaspoon or two in warm water.

ddavitt: Did you all get chance to read the log from Thursday?

AGplusone: Yes

ddavitt: Good.

geeairmoe2: Nope.

ddavitt: bad:-)

WJaKe has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘change’ doesn’t mean we read it, however. Hi, Jake

AGplusone: chance

geeairmoe2: Been researching how the bombing fits into Armegeddon in Revelations.

ddavitt: Never mind; if we go over same ground it doesn’t matter. Hi there

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron

ddavitt: Hi again Denv

DenvToday: Greetings everybody!

DenvToday: Hello :-)

AGplusone: Have to read Steve’s account in Job:ACOJ

AGplusone: 😉

ddavitt: Is everyone ready to start the chat?

AGplusone: I was always intrigued when Alec meets up with them in Heaven and Steve gives that little hint of an a

AGplusone: account

DJedPar has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Denis

ddavitt: Hi Denis

DenvToday: Hi Denis

DJedPar: Hi David, Hi Everybody

ddavitt: Maybe we’ll wait a bit, see if any more people drop in…

ddavitt: Or then again maybe we won’t

ddavitt: We were discussing colonisation on Thursday

ddavitt: And whetehr any of us coddled sissies could hack it any more

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Can we do without all the tech and comforts, not just for a holiday but for ever?

AGplusone: Hi Felicia

fgherman: Helllo all

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

SAcademy: Good evening Felicia.

DenvToday: Good afternoon Felicia

ddavitt: Or can we colonise now and expect to get the comfort level back up quite fast?

geeairmoe2: Humans are adaptable. No matter how high or low that comfort level is, humans adapt.

AGplusone: food rationing, no new ‘putors every year, have to make do with ’41 model Fords, gosh …

ddavitt: Could you get used to it you think?

geeairmoe2: Wheter I’d voluntarily give them up is one question. If its forced on me, I adapt.

ddavitt: I’m not sure I could

AGplusone: gas rationing

DenvToday: David, you just described Cuba.

fgherman: I sure I’d be able to adapt

AGplusone: I just described 1942-45

geeairmoe2: When its adapt or perish, you’ll find yourself capable of extraordinary feats.

fgherman: Just think how luxurious our life looks to someone from just 100 years ago

ddavitt: true..

AGplusone: [or 39-45, in Britain]

AGplusone: Do you think the cubanos under Castro are pioneering spirit tough, Ron?

ddavitt: brb

DenvToday: I think they must be hardy just to make it from day to day. So in a sense, perhaps. But having the..

fgherman: I think the Cuban people are capable of extraordinary accomplishments, just like most other humans

AGplusone: Adaptable, resolute, patriotic

DenvToday: …pioneering spirit suggest some free will in the mater.

AGplusone: agreed

DenvToday: Most Cubans would get out if they could.

AGplusone: altho those driven from a society can be pioneers. the pilgrims were driven out

DenvToday: Good point. But still, they had a choice of places to go.

fgherman: They don’t have alot of choice in the matter, though

DenvToday: Cubans have no choice.

AGplusone: many of those who left the south, ca. 1865, left because they had ‘nothing’ left

AGplusone: or felt that way

geeairmoe2: “Pioneering Spirit” shows a mental requirement is needed. Ya got to WANT it.

fgherman: I’ve lost track of how many countries the Jews have been kicked out of.

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: M y grandparents got tired of pogroms

AGplusone: The Irish greatgrandparents got tired of starving.

geeairmoe2: In ‘normal’ society you can cruise along whether you want it or not.

DenvToday: Interesting note: More Jews were summarily expelled from Arab countries after the founding of…

AGplusone: The Italian grandfather left because there waa a feud back home that would have

AGplusone: killed him had he returned.

DenvToday: …Israel than there were Arabs who lost their homes in the new state of Israel.

DenvToday: All all Arabs were invited to stay in Israel.

fgherman: And the Arabs were asked to stay

AGplusone: And some did.

DenvToday: They left to consolidate, then attack.

AGplusone: A friend of ours is Druse.

AGplusone: She left last year with her family. Said it was safe anymore.

geeairmoe2: I’m half-need, half-desire. Looking for a better life for one set of anschestors …

geeairmoe2: … escaping religious persecution from the other.

AGplusone: I think the Cubanos probably have been weeded a bit … have some of the pioneer spirit, on both sides

AGplusone: of the Miami straits.

DenvToday: I never cease to admire the Cubans who take to those leaky rafts to come here.

fgherman: Even with all the hardship involved, I don’t think there isn’t a one of us who wouldn’t help colonize

DenvToday: I know in my heart I would never have that kind of courage.

fgherman: space if we were allowed to go.

AGplusone: Odd, though, isn’t it, the ones like the half of the Gonzalez family who stay …

DenvToday: Felicia, true. lol

AGplusone: because it’s their home.

AGplusone: The Reformers who stayed and fought the Cavaliers eventually.

AGplusone: “Roundheads” a generation or two later.

SAcademy: I heard an American ambassador today talking abaout what WE have done to others in the way of bombing

AGplusone: Which one?

fgherman: Remember, America was settled by folks who cut and run rather than stay and fight.

SAcademy: Can’t remember his name.

geeairmoe2: Heard that, too. Don’t know which ambassador it was.

DenvToday: Felicia, stay and fight who? There was no organized resistance. Cromwell was a generation later.

SAcademy: We’ve been bombing indiscriminately all over the globe.

geeairmoe2: Isn’t the State Department types always the last to get on board?

AGplusone: Maybe his argument was ‘bombing’ doesn’t solve anything. The only way you do it, is put troops

AGplusone: on the ground, and settle it finally.

fgherman: The Church of England, for example, with the Pilgrims

AGplusone: Do the Germans or the Japanese hate us today because we finally settled their hash

AGplusone: by invading and then occuping them for, in Germany’s case, nearly a half century

fgherman: Maybe we should settle France’s hash; they hate us

SAcademy: I doubt that they all love us.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: in Japan’s for (if you count Okinawa) still that time too.

fgherman: I’m with Machiavelli on this one: better to be feared than loved.

AGplusone: I agree …

DenvToday: Speaking of Japan…have any of you read Clancy’s Debt of Honor?

geeairmoe2: Lived in Japan 70-73 and the older Japaneese still walked on eggshells around Americans.

AGplusone: Yes., of course.

AGplusone: Nice prediction, eh?

DenvToday: It was eerie.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin’ Joel.

DenvToday: Hi Joel

fgherman: Hi sweetie

joelrmpls: Hi, all.

AGplusone: “sweetie”? You haven’t been reading his posts! Nuclear warmonger!

SAcademy: Hello, Joel

geeairmoe2: Hello recent arrivals.

AGplusone: 😀

fgherman: You don’t have to sleep with him

fgherman: :-)

AGplusone: some of us are lucky!

fgherman: besides, I mostly agree with him

AGplusone: The pioneering spirit leds to the same sort of spirit that some fear is lacking

geeairmoe2: Being a pioneer does take a certain kind of confident arrogance.

AGplusone: today in the polulace if we’re to settle the ‘terrorist’ hash.

DenvToday: I have the pioneering spirit in abundance. What I lack is tolerance for any sort of discomfort.

geeairmoe2: The “Nothing can stop me” attitude.

DenvToday: Or danger.

AGplusone: leads

fgherman: We haven’t been tested yet; you just watch

AGplusone: I listened to a cautionary program on PBS last night … instant gratification won’t cut it

WJaKe: Where on Earth is there to be a pioneer anymore?

AGplusone: was the point Moyer and others tried to make.

DenvToday: I’d be happy to pioneer any place with Good cigars and a Sizzler.

AGplusone: No surgical strikes will solve what’s facing us.

DenvToday: David, I fear you’re right.

AGplusone: The spirit of doing without new car models, putting up with rationing, etc., is what we need to know

AGplusone: we’re going to face.

AGplusone: Same spirit as the pioneers.

AGplusone: Full mobilization …

WJaKe: I think you’re wrong. We have more economic backbone now then we had in WWII

AGplusone: war footing. No “great society” and war at the same time.

DenvToday: What good would that do? Sending 20 divisions to Afghanistan wouldn’t solve a thing.

AGplusone: Maybe it won’t take 1939-45, Jake, but you cannot expect guns and butter to work.

DenvToday: We need to bully governments into handing over the terrorists.

geeairmoe2: I’ve been waiting for some pundits on TV to talk about an economic war …

AGplusone: How do you know, Denv. Because the Russians couldn’t.

AGplusone: ?

geeairmoe2: … everyone seems to concentrate on military options.

AGplusone: The Russians had to face a guerrilla war, and no guerrilla war has ever succeeded without outside supp

WJaKe: Because we don’t need the kind and quantity of guns needed in the past

geeairmoe2: Cutting off their funds should be a first, bloodless option.

AGplusone: ort, which the Afghanstanis had. From us, and bin Laden.

joelrmpls: Yup; I sure am concentrating on military options, as a way of motivating proper political ones.

WJaKe: THis will be a covert “war”, most likely, as there is no country to invade.

joelrmpls: Among other things.

joelrmpls: And, yes, I’m a nuclear warmonger.

AGplusone: Only way we wouldn’t need the kind and quanities of arms and troops on the ground is if we used

geeairmoe2: I’d first option in a ‘dinosuar’, so that wavering allies could see what an accidental tail swipe …

AGplusone: the nuclear or ABC options.

geeairmoe2: … could do to them.

AGplusone: That’s unacceptible for too many.

joelrmpls: I don’t come to that casually, but in other places — not here — the option is apparently too icky…

DenvToday: We don’t need to bomb population centers. We inform harboring governments that they will hand over…

joelrmpls: … to discuss, and anybody who would is subhuman.

AGplusone: Because of the collateral effects.

geeairmoe2: Opps, sorry for that fallout. Who’s side are you on again?

WJaKe: And you still don’t know where to drop the A-bomb!

DenvToday: …the terrorists. They can do this. If they don’t, we start killing from the top up. We start…

joelrmpls: I could give you six targets, right now,

WJake.

DenvToday: …shooting presidents. Then Vice-presidents…then generals. Down the line.

DenvToday: top down, I meant.

WJaKe: But are you sure you will hit terrorists there?

AGplusone: I disagree about a covert war. I think the only way to win is occupy the ground.

joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely — if you include “military and governmental headquarters of states that …

fgherman: I wonder what Robert would have said?

AGplusone: Cf. Starship Troopers.

joelrmpls: … have sponsored terrorism that has resulted in the deaths of US citizens.”

AGplusone: “Navy types” always think differently, and they’re wrong.

geeairmoe2: Since the Gulf too many people can’t give up on the dream of a ‘clean’ war.

joelrmpls: Remember: this was a response to the US involvement in the Gulf War.

AGplusone: Johnson and Nixon thought “bomb Hanoi” or “bomb Cambodia” would win. They were wrong.

WJaKe: The Gulf War was too easy because it was too limited.

WJaKe: We won the battle without resolving the conflict.

DenvToday: I’m disturbed by the casual acceptance that police state restrictions on all of our lives will be…

DenvToday: …necessary. Nobody seems outraged by that.

AGplusone: There were no ‘police state’ restrictions during WW2.

WJaKe: what sort of restrictions do you refer to? Let’s talk specifics.

joelrmpls: And that’s pretty much what’s likely to happen, now — at most, a restricted invasion of Afghanistan..

geeairmoe2: Terrorists need to look into the eyes of the soldiers who put the bullet into their foreheads.

fgherman: I know that a large number of us are concerned by that.

DenvToday: To protect our airplanes, it’s very simple. Allow passengers to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

joelrmpls: … and more talk about a “war on terrorism”, that’ll be about as effective as the “war on drugs.”

AGplusone: The folk would lived in GBritain or the US were appalled when they found out what ‘police state’

joelrmpls: But, let’s say that we can wave a wand and make suicidal hijacking bombings impossible. Wave it. ok:

AGplusone: meant is eastern Europe under the communists, or in Germany, after the war, under the Nazis

joelrmpls: Do you think we’ve ended terrorism against the US?

AGplusone: “in” eastern Europe

AGplusone: No.

joelrmpls: What happens when, just to pick an example, OSB’s buddies, still at loose — or Arafat’s — hijack…

WJaKe: No, we wouldn’t.

AGplusone: The only way to “end” terrorism is deny it a refuge … north of the Yalu River

joelrmpls: …a gasoline tanker, drive it to the Mall of America, where they meet their friends with the …

geeairmoe2: A lot of me hopes we ended it, but most of me fears it’ll get worse before it gets better.

joelrmpls: McVeigh-style bombs.

AGplusone: and the only way you end the refuge is occupy it.

AGplusone: Not bomb it.

WJaKe: so now we need to occupy China?

joelrmpls: I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I don’t think that there would have been any refuge in, say,

AGplusone: Not fighting China, yet

joelrmpls: Tokyo if Harry Truman had decided to blow it up.

WJaKe: You’re headed that way aren’t you? north of the Yalu River?

geeairmoe2: One commentator mentioned some Europeans marvel at how we have public trash cans.

joelrmpls: From the Puppet Masters: “We’re going to have to learn to live with this horror.”

AGplusone: Today we’re fighting Southwest Asian refuges

joelrmpls: The Israelis have, for years.

AGplusone: Figuratively speaking, Jake, yes.

WJaKe: I thought we were fighting Mid-Eastern ex-patriates.

AGplusone: Land at Haiffa, and proceed east.

geeairmoe2: The Phillipines have a Islamic terrorist problem, too.

joelrmpls: I think that the PA component of the problem is the easiest to handle, from the US POV.

AGplusone: then solve it in its time

WJaKe: PA?

AGplusone: if the Filipinos cannot handle it

joelrmpls: How about the Bekaa? Syria? the Emirates? Libya? Sudan? Cuba?

DenvToday: Pennsylvania. We wipe out Pennsylvania.

fgherman: Palestinian “Authority”

DenvToday: Oh.

joelrmpls: PA = “Palestinian Authority” Arafat’s police state.

geeairmoe2: Someone expert, quiote confident, said Isreal can handle the PA and Hammas …

WJaKe: But I thought Arafat was appaled at errorism, denounced it in every way!

geeairmoe2: … if the US would allow them.

WJaKe: er, terrorism.

joelrmpls: But remember, unless we restrict ourselves to Al Quiada, we’re talking about a dozen states.

AGplusone: Coming back from Philadelphia, considering the weather, maybe we should wipe out Pennsylvania …

AGplusone: while we’re at it. 😉

fgherman: Take a lot of pesky relatives of mine

joelrmpls: As to Arafat being “appalled” about terrorism, actions speak louder than words, and he’s deliberately

AGplusone: Mine too

geeairmoe2: There was a claim that bin Laden had cells in 55 countries. Some said 34.

joelrmpls: let known terrorists out of his jails.

joelrmpls: Cells are one thing — I’m just talking about national entities that support Al Quaida. There’s…

AGplusone: So, we tell 34 countries, stamp them out or we’re coming in to stamp them out for you, or with you.

joelrmpls: … at least Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Sudan.

AGplusone: I think the national entities are pretty easy to identify.

joelrmpls: And by “support”, I don’t mean just “cheer on.”

WJaKe: Again, if you can find these cells.

AGplusone: That means remove the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and the Sudan, etc., and replace them

AGplusone: with Adenhauers.

joelrmpls: Again: it’s not the cells. We, manifestly, have an Al Quiada cell in Minnesota.

joelrmpls: Or, at least, had.

WJaKe: So replace the govt. of Minnesota?

joelrmpls: But I think it’s fair to say that was without the support of the government of Minnesota.

AGplusone: If that means occupation, for the fifty years we’ve had NATO in Germany, then so be it.

DenvToday: Joel, I don’t think the U.S. has the knowledge–or the will–to really attack terrorist groups.

joelrmpls: WJake, if you insist on refusing to acknowledge the difference between hidden terrorist cells…

geeairmoe2: The Russians never had mid-east terrorist problems. They had a unique solution…

WJaKe: :-DYeah, but I had to take at poke at Gov. The Mind

joelrmpls: … and states that support terrorist organizations, there’s really nothing we can talk about.

DenvToday: We’ll give lip service, but that’s all. Or we might wipe out one branch of the tree.

geeairmoe2: … when a Russian was kidnapped, the next day the kidnappers received the …

AGplusone: Clancy makes that point, Gee

geeairmoe2: … body part of a close relative and a note suggesting many future deliveries.

ddavitt: sorry folks; hi to those who arrived after I left to feed the baby. I will have to go for good as

AGplusone: and I agree.

WJaKe: I do acknowledge the difference. That is what I see as the root problem, finding the hidden cells!

joelrmpls: It wasn’t the next day; it took weeks, and at least one of the packages they sent included the body…

fgherman: Bye Jane

ddavitt: David is not yet back and I need to start cooking.

joelrmpls: …parts of an infant girl.

ddavitt: Night.

DenvToday: Bye Jane

joelrmpls: Bye, Jane.

AGplusone: bye

geeairmoe2: Take care, Jane.

WJaKe: bye Jane

ddavitt has left the room.

joelrmpls: WJake, could you do something about that awful yellow color of your name?

DenvToday: The Israelis know. If we use Mossad, it could be done.

WJaKe: I don’t know, it’s red on my screen

DenvToday: We wouldn’t even have to do it ourselves. All we would have to do is give the Israelis the go-ahead.

AGplusone: The problem is the (now it’s blue, Jake)

fgherman: Your own name always shows up in red

joelrmpls: The issue of “extinguishing terrorist cells” <> “extinguishing the governments that support them”

geeairmoe2: I’m not sure Body Part Parcel Post would work with these guys, though.

AGplusone: 5 o’clock news.

joelrmpls: I’m not advocating that; I’m just pointing out that’s what they did.

geeairmoe2: It would be worth a try.

joelrmpls: As to the Mossad, I’m not sure that they have accurate targetting information about terrorist…

WJaKe: I know joel, I agree with you on that, cells and govts.

joelrmpls: …organizations in, say, Baghdad.

AGplusone: Maybe not. Joel and Clancy simply pointed out how the Russians made the targeting of Americans prefer-

AGplusone: able to targeting Russians.

joelrmpls: Of course it’s preferable — and we do all realize that OSB could have gotten a higher bodycount…

BPRAL22169: It seems to me if we could choke off bin Ladin’s funding source — Hussein — the problem reduces

BPRAL22169: in size instantly.

joelrmpls: … with just one plane, don’t we?

joelrmpls: Funding, political support, all of that, sure.

AGplusone: Exactly, or his funding from Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or Syria

geeairmoe2: Cut off his money, isolate known associates.

BPRAL22169: The consensus seems to be Hussein is the principal source.

AGplusone: that means destablilize those governments, and replace them

WJaKe: I thought OSB had inherited money?

AGplusone: Hussein gets his money from all those sources.

BPRAL22169: We don’t have a particularly good record at placing puppet governments.

fgherman: Only 330 million

WJaKe: Or has burned up the several hundred million dollars mentioned/

AGplusone: Either they stop their subjects. Sure we do. Everyone forgets we replaced Hitler and Tojo

joelrmpls: … but the Emirates are major contributors, too. You don’t block a faucet with a fork.

geeairmoe2: Weren’t we able to freeze a lot of Iranian assests during the hostage holding?

AGplusone: rather successfully.

AGplusone: We did that by all out war on those governments and by occupying the ground’

BPRAL22169: I rther thought Tojo reigned until his death.

joelrmpls: We did, but only after unconditional surrender, and a commitment to military occupation.

AGplusone: Why did he die, Bill.

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: And we did not replace Hitler — we accepted an existing government in place.

geeairmoe2: It goes directly to how willing are we to hold them to “You’re either for us, or against us.” …

joelrmpls: Al Quaida is funded by, at least in part, the Emirates. Note that nobody is talking about action….

joelrmpls: …. against them.

BPRAL22169: You are right about Tojo — I was thinking Hirohito.

DenvToday: Joel, there are many methods to stamp out terrorism. Some are better than others, but the essential..

geeairmoe2: … what happens when an Afghani mother’s starving baby shows up all over TV.

DenvToday: …question is this: Does the U.S. have the will to actually do it? To get down and dirty?

AGplusone: What happened that enabled us to replace Hitler.

joelrmpls: Denv: Yup.

BPRAL22169: But assassinating a chief of staff is not the same as placing a puppet government.

AGplusone: We didn’t accept the existing government, what remained after Hitler, we immediately put it on trial

AGplusone: and hanged most of it.

DenvToday: I hope you’re right.

joelrmpls: Puppet governments are easy to do — after unconditional surrender. Before, no.

joelrmpls: We actually hanged very, very little of it.

AGplusone: After we accepted its surrender.

joelrmpls: Take a look at the stats at Nuremberg sentences, sometime.

AGplusone: Well, now, what exactly happened to the guy who surrendered?

BPRAL22169: Doenitz?

AGplusone: Yes.

joelrmpls: He got off. Not the worse call ever made.

BPRAL22169: I think he had a short sentence.

DenvToday: Doenitz got ten years

BPRAL22169: I don’t remember the specifics of the Nuremberg verdicts any more.

AGplusone: that took him out of action, didn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Except a few — Hess, Goering, etc.

joelrmpls: Take a look — it might be very instructive, after you get past the few who were hanged.

fgherman: Beats hanging, though

AGplusone: We didn’t exactly accept their government, did we?

joelrmpls: I’m in favor of giving Arafat a suspended sentence.

fgherman: Amen

AGplusone: Yes, we know, Joel.

geeairmoe2: I worry about the will of our MTV watching, video-game playing soldiers …

DenvToday: Suspended over a gibbet?

geeairmoe2: … will the stick it out.

BPRAL22169: Yes, we accepted the government and set up civil elections, with a military occupation interim

AGplusone: for how long?

joelrmpls: I’m not worried about the will of the military — I am worried about the will of the US govt, and…

joelrmpls: … the US population.

DenvToday: Joel, my point exactly.

BPRAL22169: I dont recall, exactly — it was still going on when Patton died.

geeairmoe2: All of it, agreed.

AGplusone: In 1961 when I got there it was still an occupation, whether we recognized Konrad or not

BPRAL22169: “Denazification”

joelrmpls: … and note how easily “denazification” was suspended, and for whom.

AGplusone: Whether we let Konrad have a little army or not

DenvToday: Pragmatism wins every time over noble philosophies.

DenvToday: That sounds cynical, but it’s true.

joelrmpls: If there’s a land war, the numbers of US servicemen coming home in bodybags will be huge.

WJaKe has left the room.

AGplusone: Today, the Seventh Army is still on the ground over there …

fgherman: Ginny, you’ve lived through something like this before; do you think we have what it takes?

joelrmpls: Note that the leaders are talking in the vaguest generalities, and even qualifying those.

joelrmpls: See Wolfowitz’s “clarification” yesterday.

AGplusone: Will they really? Didn’t Hackman predict 10,000 casualties in Irag, Joel?

DenvToday: Yep. Lots of qualifying and revising going on today.

SAcademy: Sorry, I don’t knnow whether we do have it any more Felicia.

AGplusone: yet the “Republican Guard” melted, didn’t it?

DenvToday: I felt something of what we had then last week when I watched Band of Brothers. I went and looked…

joelrmpls: Dupuy predicted 300, mostly from friendly fire.

DenvToday: …at my father’s Bronze Star. Something I hadn’t done in years.

AGplusone: Hitler and Tojo both had a dedicated populance on their side. Gott Mit Uns!

AGplusone: Banzai!

joelrmpls: One of the reasons that I favor the nuclear option is that I don’t think we have it.

AGplusone: Does bin Ladin have that?

AGplusone: Does Hussein have that?

joelrmpls: I do think the only way we can win, for a sufficiently serious value of “win”, is …

fgherman: He doesn’t need it

joelrmpls: …via a shortcut.

geeairmoe2: I worry about our current generation because the WWII generation were hardened by …

AGplusone: Of course, not, in a terrorist war … but I’m not talking about fighting a terrorist war.

geeairmoe2: … the depression. The cureent generation’s had no ‘hardening’.

AGplusone: Agree, Will.

AGplusone: But is it really different?

DenvToday: Interesting side note: When we declared war on Japan, we didn’t declare war on a nation.

geeairmoe2: They don’t understand deprivation and sacrifice.

DenvToday: We declared war on one man–the Emporer.

AGplusone: That’s the problem.

DenvToday: Emperor. Sorry.

joelrmpls: More depressing news: note how the Admin is lauding the Pakistanis, despite….

joelrmpls: ….them having rejected the most important US demand.

AGplusone: Is that today? I haven’t watched the news today.

joelrmpls: Yup — they’ve made it clear that they’ll accept overflights, only. No US troops on…

joelrmpls: …Pakistani soil.

AGplusone: What has Powell said? Or is it ‘administration’ voices only?

joelrmpls: State is dancing around whether or not we ever asked for that.

DenvToday: Yep Joel. I expected that.

geeairmoe2: We should remind of where we could stand should trouble with India crops up again.

joelrmpls: Oh, I think that we should abandon neutrality in India/Pakistan.

fgherman: “Go India”

joelrmpls: Yup.

joelrmpls: They’ve been living with this terror more than we have.

joelrmpls: If the Indians decide they need to take out Pakistani nuclear facilities, I think…

DenvToday: “I refuse to be impartial between the fire and the fire brigade.” – W.S. Churchill

joelrmpls: … we ought to provide targetting information, and air cover.

AGplusone: Well, India has its own problems regarding tolerance of other religions.

joelrmpls: I’m not saying that India is perfect — quite the contrary. What I am saying is that…

AGplusone: I think the ‘administration’ better get told by its own citizenry that they better stop dancing

joelrmpls: …we need to be much more generous about peccadilloes in our allies than we …

joelrmpls: …are about virtues in our enemies.

geeairmoe2: We ought to adopt that arab concept, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

joelrmpls: Cuba, for example, has nearly 100% literacy. I think that’s a good thing.

AGplusone: And then turn our armies on them after we finish off the radical Islamites, like Patton wanted, Joel?

joelrmpls: But are we serious about stopping terrorism? Or just AlQuida?

DenvToday: Joel, that was true of Nazi Germany as well.

joelrmpls: On India?

geeairmoe2: To get most of the world onboard, they may demand ‘come help get our terrorists, too’.

joelrmpls: See “Solution Unsatisfactory”.

AGplusone: See, To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

fgherman: And what’s wrong with that?

AGplusone: President Patton

joelrmpls: We have the opposite of a creeping mission right now. We have the . . .

joelrmpls: … constantly shrinking mission.

joelrmpls: Which will work only if it’s sufficiently instructive.

geeairmoe2: Be longer and bloodier to solve everyone’s problem, but worht it to our children. Goes back …

joelrmpls: see http://www.jerrypournelle.com

AGplusone: I think we should simply disestablish every government that sponsors terrorism against us.

fgherman: The thing that bothers me, is that no one really cared until someone other than Jews were being killed

geeairmoe2: … to : do we have the guts to stick out to the end.

joelrmpls: I’m with you on that — but note how many governments we have to disestablish…

joelrmpls: …by that principle.

AGplusone: And by disestablish I mean land troops on their soil and replace them.

joelrmpls: We don’t have a tenth the troops needed to occupy them, not with full mobilization.

AGplusone: As I said, land at Haiffa and turn east.

AGplusone: Really?

geeairmoe2: We had a president the last 8 years kissing Arab rear and blocking Israel in an …

geeairmoe2: attempt to get himself a Peace Prize.

AGplusone: We had enough troops in 45

joelrmpls: And that’s forgetting, for a moment, the nontrivial problem of conquering them.

AGplusone: And our population was half that, and our armed forces were reduced.

joelrmpls: We had enough troops in 1945, to — with the help of our allies — occupy two non-resisting

joelrmpls: countries.

AGplusone: Well, who’s going to help them resist?

joelrmpls: Both of which had been thoroughly conquered.

AGplusone: that’s what I’m proposing

geeairmoe2: I worry about getting prepared. I live next to Ft. Hood, largest military base in the world …

geeairmoe2: … and training would be two, three days a week because of lack of equipment.

joelrmpls: I know you are.

AGplusone: Yes, just like 1940 and 41.

geeairmoe2: Soldiers had nothing substantive to do the rest of the time.

AGplusone: I’m talking full mobilization.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

joelrmpls: Okay, how many divisions do we need to conquer, at a minimum, the following list:

AGplusone: Read the stories about training in 40 and 41 some day. Flour sacks, broomsticks, trucks labeled “tank”

AGplusone: 40 or 50

joelrmpls: Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Emirates, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Cuba and Libya?

AGplusone: Leave Cuba out. We don’t need to worry about them.

joelrmpls: Okay.

AGplusone: One peep out of you and thermonuclear war.

joelrmpls: I’ll even throw out Sudan, just to be generous.

AGplusone: Green glass covers Cuba

geeairmoe2: I go back to suggest we had a better, more hardened pool of men for combat in 41 than today.

AGplusone: Maybe so, but there are a few good men around who can harden.

fgherman: No, we’ve got Gulf War veterans

AGplusone: Doesn’t matter. They’re good men.

joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely — but we had more blooded officers available in Korea. Look at all the retreads…

joelrmpls: HST called up.

AGplusone: They know what can be done.

AGplusone: We have to have a Kaserine Pass.

joelrmpls: I’m not doubting their courage, or their professionalism. I am doubting the numbers.

geeairmoe2: I hope so, but I see everyday the idiots we have in the Army.

AGplusone: That is what hardens.

AGplusone: The idiots get shaken out.

joelrmpls: Let’s just look at Syria — probably one of the easier places to conquer.

AGplusone: No, let’s let the military look at Syria. That’s what they’re paid for.

geeairmoe2: The everyday grunts? Scary. But then, its only the idiots that make the news here.

geeairmoe2: I just may be seeing that black spot and forgetting the big, white paper its on.

joelrmpls: Okay; if you don’t want to do the thought experiment, I won’t force you. :-)

AGplusone: They’ll do the thought experiment if we tell them to.

AGplusone: That’s their job.

AGplusone: But we have to have the will to tell them and to follow through.

joelrmpls: Sure, they will. But it’ll still take n number of soldiers to conquer a country of m millions.

fgherman: Hear, hear

AGplusone: That’s what we’re talking about “pioneer spirit”

joelrmpls: What if m < our total possible mobilization?

joelrmpls: Err, make that “what if n < our total possible mobilization”?

geeairmoe2: Its just that if what we have to use is what I’ve seen at Ft. Hood, it might be a high number.

AGplusone: We cannot have guns and butter ….

joelrmpls: Agreed.

geeairmoe2: Then again, the sight of that rubble in NYC might be the hardening we’ve lacked.

AGplusone: We can field eight armored division and 22 infantry divisions in a year if we do it.

joelrmpls: But let’s assume that we’re willing to lower our enlistment standards, and include, say, 47-year old

joelrmpls: … fat guys with diabetes.

AGplusone: running Remingtons, sure

geeairmoe2: How tied in is the will the fight with the numbers needed.

fgherman: And their wives

joelrmpls: I’ll accept your numbers on the divisions — but how many did the Nazis have in the Balkans, alone?

AGplusone: it’s the will … I don’t hear day that will live in infamy … I don’t hear declarations of war.

joelrmpls: Me, neither.

AGplusone: DivisionsWW 2 have nothing to do with Divisions today

joelrmpls: Except from Bob Barr, may his tribe increase.

geeairmoe2: Maybe the paranoia about the various citizen militias will drop a little.

joelrmpls: Okay — how many of those thirty divisions do you think we need for Afghanistan, alone?

AGplusone: Almost as bad as armor battalions against one MI

AGplusone: All of them.

AGplusone: Clancy argues in his one recent Bear and whatever it was, that an Armor Division is sufficient today

joelrmpls: Which means, therefore, that we don’t have enough for the other countries that need…

AGplusone: to do what at least a Corps did in WW 2

joelrmpls: … the same attention.

joelrmpls: Oh, in terms of firepower vs. an enemy military, sure.

AGplusone: Not planning to land in Afghanistan first, Joel. First, as I said, you land at Haiffa.

geeairmoe2: Have we totally abandoned the ‘war on two fronts’ strategy?

AGplusone: And you clean out North Africa.

joelrmpls: Better watch out — the natives will be throwing chocolate bars to the soldiers. :-)

AGplusone: Then you move on …

geeairmoe2: In terms of prepardedness.

fgherman: lol

fgherman: Kosher ones

AGplusone: If the Russians want to join the fun and come in through the north, no one’s going to say No.

joelrmpls: (Although I think Haifa would be suboptimal; Gaza could be cleared for the necessary…

joelrmpls: …facilities by the time the ships arrived.

AGplusone: Haiffa is figuerative

joelrmpls: I know. :-)

fgherman: Ahh, 2 birds with one stone.

AGplusone: The point is: you clean out the area

joelrmpls: But I am trying to get a picture for how you think that the area *might* be cleaned out…

AGplusone: Stop off in Bagdad on the way

joelrmpls: …by conventional forces, and how many you think it would take.

geeairmoe2: I actually so some airheads suggesting this wouldn’t have happened if we weren’t supportive of Israel.

AGplusone: Say hi to Hassein ….

geeairmoe2: Heard some airhead. My fingers are fading fast.

joelrmpls: Baghdad would be a hard nut to crack. Not impossible, mind you.

AGplusone: Was in reach in about 24 hours ten years ago.

joelrmpls: Oh, lots of airheads are suggesting this. Read rasff, if you’ve got the stomach for it.

geeairmoe2: rasff?

joelrmpls: Sure — was in reach. And with the Republican Guard as badly shattered as it was…

fgherman: rec.arts.sf.fandom

joelrmpls: …even Dupuy was saying that the casualties of a ground assault would be huge.

AGplusone: And the Republican Guard shattered pretty quickly.

AGplusone: yeah, well, lots of folk said casualties would be heavy.

joelrmpls: And that’s just Baghdad.

AGplusone: We’ll never know, will we?

AGplusone: And that took, what, 100 hours?

fgherman: If we’d been more supportive of Israel, this wouldn’t have happened.

AGplusone: and a preparatory bombardment of what, two months?

joelrmpls: Sure. But an incompetent enemy, led by a military nutcase, isn’t the worse opposition to face.

geeairmoe2: Whats the possiblity of one wellplaced nuke bringing the other countries around?

AGplusone: Who said any of the dictators are not military nutcases, all of them?

AGplusone: Do any of them have the German general staff handy?

joelrmpls: Oh, I think that the military dictator of Pakistan, for example, has apparently got some riffs.

AGplusone: Or the Imperial Japanese General Staff, hardened by conquering most of China.

joelrmpls: Thankfully, the German General Staff was handicapped by the Fuhrer.

AGplusone: We don’t need nukes, unless Pakistan is stupid enough to employ them against us.

AGplusone: And I don’t think Pakistan will last that long.

joelrmpls: And, to take another example, the Syrians have gotten a lot better since 1967, as…

joelrmpls: ….they demonstrated in 1973.

AGplusone: so ….

joelrmpls: As to the nukes, my guess is that if Kabul and Islamabad go, and the US expresses regret…

AGplusone: Are they going to stand up against us, the Brits, the French, the Israelis …

joelrmpls: …only for the necessity, that’s all it would take for surrender of all the countries on the list.

AGplusone: the Turks

SAcademy: Nite, all. Gotta run

joelrmpls: The French won’t mobilize to invade anybody — at most, they’ll send a couple of active divisions.

SAcademy has left the room.

joelrmpls: Night, ginny.

fgherman: Is having the French a help or a hindrance?

AGplusone: Maybe so … maybe not. A couple armored divisions will help. The French aren’t a great army

AGplusone: good at surrendering

joelrmpls: Oh, I dunno — they surrender real, real purty.

joelrmpls: Damn. You beat me to it.

fgherman: (lol)

AGplusone: But we can use the foreign legion

geeairmoe2: One wag said: The French don’t care if Americans are killed, but when their own people die …

AGplusone: We used it in Desert Strike

geeairmoe2: … French were among those killed in the towers.

AGplusone: Exactly, they may have to go along.

joelrmpls: Sure. But just, randomly, assuming that we can beat any army by matching numbers of divisions…

AGplusone: I don’t assume anything.

geeairmoe2: There was a real good, utterly obscene comment about the French. Wish I could remember it.

geeairmoe2: The fight with their feet and f**k with their face, I think it was.

joelrmpls: Ok. I’ll stop blueskying numbers now.

JudyjediJudy has entered the room.

AGplusone: But I don’t assume that anything Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or anyone else ….

fgherman: Welcome Judy

AGplusone: Hi, “filly”?

JudyjediJudy: Hi Felicia.

joelrmpls: That’s “Mommy” to you, young lady!

fgherman: That’s “Mom” to you.

JudyjediJudy: Okay , Okay.

geeairmoe2: I had an uncle always telling DeGaulle jokes to me because I was born in France.

joelrmpls: *whap!*

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Stephanie.

geeairmoe2: No, I’m not French. Army brat.

AGplusone: We’re fighting WW III against the middle east

geeairmoe2: My favorite joke was: DeGaulle died today. He got hit by a speedboat while trying to walk on water.

fgherman: Hi Stephanie

AGplusone: started by talking about ‘pioneer spirit’ and is it dead, and transitioned into this

JudyjediJudy: (lol)

Merfilly8: Hello all

Musiquelle26 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I read some of RAH’s letters to Campbell in Grumbles, ca. December 41, and on …

Merfilly8 has left the room.

AGplusone: and had to wonder what his feelings would be.

geeairmoe2: Same outrage, I’d guess.

geeairmoe2: Immedietly look for some way to help the war effort.

Musiquelle26 has left the room.

AGplusone: Is there really any choice in what our response should be here?

JudyjediJudy: Nope.

AGplusone: Do we just cosmetically engage in a reprisal and go back to business …. as usual, and wait for the

AGplusone: next time?

AGplusone: Or do we actually deliberately set out to replace governments that support terrorism?

geeairmoe2: I like a big, showy splash that makes any potential fence-sitters think REAL hard.

joelrmpls: I think we take a “middle course”. I think we replace the Taliban, and make some noises.

AGplusone: “Why do today, what you can put off to tomorrow?”

AGplusone: I think we’ll do that unless we continue to send outraged letters to shrub

DJedPar: Shrub?

AGplusone: Really outraged letters.

AGplusone: Bush, Jr.

joelrmpls: And I think that we institute a whole bunch of “domestic security” precautions…

joelrmpls: … that are the equivalent of closing all Sbarros in Israel.

geeairmoe2: Cut back on that ‘Shrub’ bit or you’ll get an outraged letter from me. :-)

AGplusone: aka “Dazed and confused” … I feel like a republican in 41, thinking I have to close ranks on the

AGplusone: traitor to my class.

Musiquelle26 has entered the room.

joelrmpls: I think he’s going to have to live with that, just like “Landslide Lyndon” did.

AGplusone: :-)

joelrmpls: As to what we should do, I’ve been clear on that, and don’t need to repeat it.

DJedPar: Where is Piaf when you need her?

geeairmoe2: Okay, instead of what SHOULD we do, what WILL we do?

geeairmoe2: Predictions.

joelrmpls: As I said: I think what we will do is engage in a military operation that might:

AGplusone: I hope, pray we do what we should do.

joelrmpls: a) get bin Laden

geeairmoe2: (I feel like McLughlin)

joelrmpls: b) destabilize the Taliban.

joelrmpls: and, and most c) occupy Afghanistan.

joelrmpls: I think that the other terrorist nations will, at worst, suffer some economic sanctions.

joelrmpls: And diplomatic ones, too.

fgherman: Alas

joelrmpls: “We’ve recalled our Ambassador, Mr. Assad. Now you’ll tremble!”

joelrmpls: “And today, my fellow Americans, I’ve sent a stiff note to Muamar Ghaddffi.”

AGplusone: I do not think it makes military sense to do (c) unless you remove the threats to your rear and flanks

geeairmoe2: I think that pretty well nails it. Will it be enough.

AGplusone: and that means Syria, Iraq, and probably Pakistan.

joelrmpls: Agreed. but I’m not talking about what makes military sense, but what I think we’ll do.

AGplusone: Unless there’s a coup in Pakistan.

geeairmoe2: For me, the two unknows seem to be: Do we have the will to do?

AGplusone: We cannot do that. Powell will not allow it.

geeairmoe2: And will the fence-sitters come quickly to our side.

joelrmpls: 50-50, the agreement to overflights will trigger that, assuming that we use the airspace.

AGplusone: Unless Powell gets the ducks in a row, there will be no invasion of Afghanistan …

joelrmpls: Will it be enough? Enough for what?

joelrmpls: Shut down the Arab terror network? Nah.

geeairmoe2: How much is the Syria leadership and military tied together. Can we see a coup there?

AGplusone: Overflights aren’t sufficient. We’ll either get nothing but gestures, or we’ll get:

AGplusone: “Well, now we’re going to land troops in Pakistan. Either with us or ‘agin’ us, Pakistan? What’s it

AGplusone: going to be?”

joelrmpls: Felicia just point out that I’m not the only person in the world advocating nuclear strikes.

geeairmoe2: I know Saddem and the Iraqi military are one and the same.

joelrmpls: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010914-87723680. htm

geeairmoe2: I’ll join that list.

AGplusone: I’m sure Jerry Falwell is advocating strikes too, Joel; but Jerry IIRC had his daddy’s congressman

AGplusone: pull him off the boat into Inchon Harbor.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Actually, Jerry Falwell isn’t. He explains that the problem is all the abortion-advocating lesbians.

TAWN3: Hi all

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn … welcome to the WW III in the middle east sipping and chowder club

DenvToday: Hello Tawn

DJedPar: Hi Tawn

fgherman: Hello Tawn

AGplusone: nice to have someone who’s going to have to do it with us. They call you up yet, Captain?

TAWN3: No, not yet.

TAWN3: Expect to be though.

fgherman: Anything that we can do to help?

TAWN3: Give blood.

TAWN3: :-)

fgherman: Will do

joelrmpls: Red Cross says to call this week; I checked this morning.

Musiquelle26: I was asked to come back next week, with an appointment at the blood center

TAWN3: Yes, response has ben good all over the country.

fgherman: Especially with those “cold, unfeeling New Yorkers”

joelrmpls: The US culture gives good warmth, at least in a crisis.

AGplusone: It was nice to know that the Philly Red Cross immediately shipped our blood north to NYC on 9/11

joelrmpls: That’s a virtue, but it’s not the only virtue needed, right now.

Musiquelle26: I stand among the awed that our country does work well in times of crisis.

AGplusone: Forgetting for a moment that you’re a reserve officer, what do you think the response should be, Tawn?

TAWN3: It’s our strength.

Musiquelle26: I’m too young to remember anything approaching the unity I have seen lately.

AGplusone: Is it time to put an end to terrorist governments in the Muddle East?

fgherman: It’s been along time since we’ve needed to be this united.

Musiquelle26: Muddle fits

TAWN3: In my personal opinion, yes.

geeairmoe2: The U.S. is like brothers who will wail upon one another, but God help some outsider doing it.

fgherman: Way past time

AGplusone: Yes, I mistyped, corrected, and then retyped the error.

joelrmpls: In other news, Iran has closed its border with Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: good

joelrmpls: They feel that they have enough Afghani refugees, already.

geeairmoe2: To keep out refugees.

AGplusone: Oh, yeah … the Imanis are saying: “Count us out of this!”

joelrmpls: Yup — they’re buddies, you see, but not that kind of buddies.

TAWN3: Is Afghan Shii?

AGplusone: We’ll send them arms … if we can get away with it.

TAWN3: I suppose I should know that, hadn’t thought to find out before

geeairmoe2: Whichever is more radical, Shii or Suni, that’s Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: I don’t think so

joelrmpls: Mainly Sunni; about 15% Shiites.

joelrmpls: “Religions: Sunni Muslim 84%, Shi’a Muslim 15%, other 1%” www.cia.gov

AGplusone: Shii down south in the marches that Kissinger and Bush left to hang.

TAWN3: Ok. I usually think of Persians as Shiite

AGplusone: marshes

joelrmpls: Persians are, largely, Shiite.

joelrmpls: Afghans are sort of Persian Lite.

joelrmpls: “Less cultured, more violent.”

joelrmpls: I’ve got to go make dinner now; later, all.

AGplusone: later

TAWN3: Shiites (Persians) say the Arabs broke the chain of succession with the seventh “ruler”

joelrmpls has left the room.

fgherman: Good night all. I’ve got to help him make dinner.

TAWN3: So, in a strict sense, by definition, Shiite is the more politically radical

fgherman has left the room.

Musiquelle26: On a semi-related note, what happened with the trials the Taliban was holding of those

TAWN3: But that’s different

Musiquelle26: relief workers?

JudyjediJudy: I’m leaving.

JudyjediJudy has left the room.

AGplusone: Which ones? the UN types?

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Or the indigenious citizens?

geeairmoe2: There have been veiled threats to retaliation against foriegners.

Musiquelle26: THe ones who allegedely advocated Christianity, The UN type

TAWN3: Hey Joel, that was good! Persian lite. :-)

AGplusone: UN evacuated yesterday … all of them.

Musiquelle26: I have not had ten minutes to myself until this evening, unfortunately

AGplusone: How’s everyone, Stephanie?

AGplusone: {or all that could get out}

AGplusone: Ebon?

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Musiquelle26: Paula’s still doing well, no more treatments, Kevin’s recovering froma torn calf, and the

Musiquelle26: babies are yard apes now

AGplusone: Good.

AGplusone: a remission then, I take it?

Musiquelle26: We’ll know for sure in a few weeks when she does her post check-up

AGplusone: crossing fingers

Musiquelle26: But it looked favorable on the end-treatment biopsy

TAWN3: Did anyone read L. Niel Smith’s commentary the day of the attack?

AGplusone: I haven’t. You have a link?

DenvToday: Do you have a link?

TAWN3: Someone posted it on the Heinleiners list, I’ll dig it up and send it to you

AGplusone: okay ….

DenvToday: tyvm

TAWN3: Basically, he was predicting that we would all be instantly ruled by a police state

TAWN3: immediately as a result of the attacks.

Musiquelle26: I have a question, and I hope no one gets upset, but I’m trying to catch impressions

TAWN3: It was divorced from reality IMHO

Musiquelle26: What was everyone’s first, non-thought reaction?

geeairmoe2: Some libertarians may have made a serious PR blunder bringing that up so fast after the bombing.

TAWN3: We were at war.

AGplusone: Funny, tho … he just sent out a take-off on Harry Bellefonte’s Day-Oh, called ….

geeairmoe2: Made it look like all they cared about was their own personal needs.

geeairmoe2: And nothing for 5,000 innocent dead.

AGplusone: “The Pay Back Song” ….

AGplusone: Some libertarians need to have their heads spaced, which is why I ain’t one.

AGplusone: Pearl Harbor, Filly.

TAWN3: And timed David, don’t forget the timing.

AGplusone: That too

TAWN3: Yeah, I thought Pearl Harbor as well.

geeairmoe2: I was wondering, like with Pearl Harbor lore, how long before someone claims …

AGplusone: Wait until we have the mass funerals.

geeairmoe2: … the government let them bomb the towers for some political reason.

TAWN3: No one has any idea what we are talking about :-)

AGplusone: Filly knows.

TAWN3: Did anyone see the Father Mike funeral today? That was the most moving service I have ever

TAWN3: seen I think.

Musiquelle26: I had just gotten to work, and the last guy in said “A plane crashed into the WTC”

AGplusone: Head spacing and timing is what you do with a .50 cal. to make sure it doesn’t blow up in your face

AGplusone: when you fire it.

Musiquelle26: I thought he was making a sick joke, but went to pull it up on the internet

DJedPar: Lots of people behave irrationally/improperly in time of crisis.

geeairmoe2: I was thinking spacing and timing had something to do with spark plugs.

AGplusone: My wife woke me up into the middle of it.

Musiquelle26: We listened to AM radio all day at work, because we had no tv coverage

AGplusone: First thought was: Bush is going to get out of the economy mess because of this, then we saw it was

AGplusone: very serious, and oh-oh.

TAWN3: However, you can’t account for operator headspace!

AGplusone: No, you cannot.

TAWN3: Forgat to send that off before.

geeairmoe2: My father, works Physical Security (Customs) at Ft. Hood, called. It was after the second …

geeairmoe2: … plane hit the its tower. What really numbed me was seeing the tower collapse.

AGplusone: Yes, that happened right after I got the first cup of tea into me.

DenvToday: Same here. I thought there would be a gash in the tower and that woudl be it.

DenvToday: When I saw the tower collapse, I got light-headed. Unreal. Couldn’t belive it.

TAWN3: Yes, I saw that live. It was all raher shocking.

AGplusone: And when I saw it pancake I knew there’d be thousands dead.

Musiquelle26: I felt shock, then anger.

AGplusone: a real cold rage

Musiquelle26: yes

AGplusone: and then fear that no one would do anything real about it.

TAWN3: I’m surprised the death count is so low. That says a lot for US construction and society.

AGplusone: And that’s what scares me today.

AGplusone: It does.

Musiquelle26: From what we hear, the evacuation was going rapidly and in a controlled manner

TAWN3: What is that David?

AGplusone: I thought 40k for sure.

Musiquelle26: So did we

TAWN3: I did too.

DenvToday: It’s going to be about 6 thousand dead all told.

AGplusone: The fear that our leaders will piddle fuck around this thing.

geeairmoe2: I was hopefully optimistic, thinking there had been time for many, many to make it out.

Musiquelle26: We overestimated the plane deaths and could not fathom how many in the towers

DJedPar: You are correct AG, unfortunately.

TAWN3: No. I’m afraid of just the opposite David.

AGplusone: Send in a few missles and say: “See, we showed them!”

AGplusone: What opposite, Tawn?

TAWN3: No, no way. Congress and the administration all take this far to serious

AGplusone: A precipitous invasion?

TAWN3: I hope we don’t go to far and stat a universal Jihad.

Musiquelle26: Solid airstrikes accompanied by ground forces is what many here want

TAWN3: I don’t think we will, but….

TAWN3: No, we need to invade.

AGplusone: I think we have to take them one at a time.

AGplusone: “With us, or agin’ us?” Next country: “With us, or agin’ us?” Next country: etc. and ditto.

TAWN3: We need to wipe out the entire structure of terror networks.

AGplusone: We do.

Musiquelle26: Declare an “Enemies of USA list, and check them all off with decisive action

AGplusone: Sure. Just like the old Attorney Generals’ list of organizations.

geeairmoe2: I think it was Wm F Buckley who advocated, take out a known enemey and if they weren’t …

AGplusone: There’s no free speech issue.

AGplusone: They’re not citizens, and there’s a clear imminent danger.

geeairmoe2: … responsible, apoligize and move on to the next enemy.

Musiquelle26: I want to see retribution in the form of military action.

AGplusone: I agree with Buckley for the first time in years.

AGplusone: But no one ever accused him of being unable to think clearly.

TAWN3: once we attack, it will be all out war, terrorists will throw everything they have at us

AGplusone: I want to see an occupation like that of Germany.

TAWN3: once they realize it is “use it or lose it”.

AGplusone: They will.

AGplusone: Just as Hitler landed those subs in North Carolina.

geeairmoe2: The problem with occupation is you provide a target for every little piss-ant radical.

DenvToday: I would rather them throw everything they have at us now rather than ten years from now when they…

DenvToday: …have nukes.

DenvToday: If they had nukes now, they would have used them.

AGplusone: Yes, but … there has to be support for guerrillas from the exterior.

AGplusone: I agree.

TAWN3: No, you can’t occupy Afgan for long. Brits and Soviets found that out.

geeairmoe2: And if you get them all, you don’t need to occupy. But a nice little nuke :-)

AGplusone: Don’t need to occupy it long, and don’t need to nuke it.

TAWN3: Exactly David.

TAWN3: Taliban is not universally loved in Afghan, and has commited crimes against humanity, such

AGplusone: Get it. Clear out the Taliban, get out, and leave them to their business.

geeairmoe2: One nuke, to underscore our seriousness. Not so much to kill the radicals …

TAWN3: as destroying Bamiyan, which REALLY pissed me off!

AGplusone: Forget about nation building.

geeairmoe2: … as to get the fencesitters formly with us.

AGplusone: NO nukes, unless we have to take out something when we invade.

TAWN3: I agree david, with nation building and aid to follow.

AGplusone: We don’t need to use nukes unless we have a Harry Truman choice.

TAWN3: Or throw them to the Russians!

TAWN3: Say, hey, Putin, thanks for the support, they’re all yours now. LOL

AGplusone: ‘making points’ doesn’t ever, Will.

AGplusone: How do you scare a populance that hasn’t a pot to piss in with a nuke?

geeairmoe2: Making points to those still rational.

AGplusone: There’s no one rational in that country.

TAWN3: David, I disagree about nation building. After we do it, we have to help stabilize it.

TAWN3: Or the same problem will pop up.

AGplusone: Well, I think there’s a possibility that trying to nation build will just turn us into ‘oppressors’

AGplusone: for every tinpot demogogue.

AGplusone: Leave them to their goats ….

DenvToday: I still say we kill from the top down. The traditional way has been to kill thousands of soldiers…

TAWN3: Not do so while occupyinmg. This time, unlike Saudi, Get out.

DenvToday: …and civilians to get to the top dog. Why do that?

AGplusone: I think top down is what we do when we occupy.

DenvToday: Kill heads of state.

AGplusone: Sift out the chaff, and destroy it and then leave.

TAWN3: Half of the problem today., if not more, is because we never left after the Gulf War.

AGplusone: Your village is yours again. See to it it stays that way. Bye.

DenvToday: Ask politely for the terrorists groups in their country. Give them 24 hours. Then ask the guys…

Musiquelle26: Thank you for an echo of opinion, Tawn

DenvToday: …who has replaced the head of state we killed.

AGplusone: I agree with you Denv.

DenvToday: He’ll be remarkably compliant, I’d say.

TAWN3: Sure Musiq.

AGplusone: and after we get two or three refusals, we declare war. Let them sit there looking foolish while we

AGplusone: build up. Send them photos of the building up.

AGplusone: Problem is: how do you get to the leaders when they go to the bush.

TAWN3: David, don’t forget, it’s not just the Taliban. It’s Sudan, probably Yemen, many others, as

geeairmoe2: Sooner or later, nation building or no, we’re going to have to leave, and it would help prevent …

TAWN3: well as states who support it on the side, such as Iran.

DenvToday: Are we ready to get nasty?

geeairmoe2: … having to do it all again if they had something indelible imprinted on their psyche that …

TAWN3: We need to go into many places.

DenvToday: I mean really nasty?

DenvToday: You go after their families.

geeairmoe2: … demonstrates what happen if you fall into bad habits.

AGplusone: I pointed out to Joel my theory. Land in Haifa, and start moving East. Clear out the whole muddle.

DenvToday: Do as we tell you to do or your children get it.

DenvToday: I know that sounds barbaric…

DenvToday: …but is it less barbaric to kill ten thousand soliders to get to thim?

Musiquelle26: But has little effect Denv

TAWN3: Soviet style.

Musiquelle26: In certain cultures, the promise of eternal reward outweighs such mortal insult

geeairmoe2: I mentioned earlier, when I lived in Japan in the early 70’s, how the Japaneese who remembered …

geeairmoe2: … the bomb wlaked on egshells around Americans.

AGplusone: I don’t think you have time to educate the populace. they won’t know what you’re talking about

geeairmoe2: I was a ten-year old kid and they moved out of the way for me.

TAWN3: Well, we had the Sun od, MacArtjur, who played the role to the max geeairmoe.

TAWN3: Sun God.

AGplusone: All they know is what their Iman says.

geeairmoe2: 25 years after the bomb they were respectful to teenage American.

AGplusone: Wasn’t just a bomb, Will?

TAWN3: It’s a Third World country. Backwards. Unfortuneately.

geeairmoe2: Probaly different now, a generation later.

AGplusone: They were soundly beaten, theatre wide.

geeairmoe2: They had had they homeland violated. That made the real impression.

TAWN3: Japan? Yes, and the Emperor bowed down. THAT was humbling.

AGplusone: And it’s a different situation … the homeland violated, exactly.

AGplusone: Same thing with the Germans.

Musiquelle26: I started reading the Koran recently, as I said on the board

AGplusone: We sat there, for fifty-odd years, now.

TAWN3: Afghan is not Japan. Be careful of comparisons except in the most basic, macro sense.

geeairmoe2: If we violate the homeland of friends of terrorists, they’ll remember that.

AGplusone: I agree, but not by simply bombing it.

geeairmoe2: I’m talking about what we do to their supporters.

TAWN3: Third world versus 1st world mentality. Big difference.

geeairmoe2: Get them on our side quickly.

AGplusone: I agree. Nuremburg.

Musiquelle26: And I am have had to put it aside, due to the recent events.

AGplusone: Take them out and shoot them.

geeairmoe2: How do you think Yemen will react to the sight of a mushroom cloud over Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: No one wants to tolerate even an attempt to become educated about the beliefs

AGplusone: But the problem is going to be: what do we do about the Saudis who have been doing this.

geeairmoe2: Think they’ll stop blocking the Cole investigation?

TAWN3: Well, how about with a Jihad Geeairmoe

AGplusone: Yemen would declare a holy war against us. What do they have to lose?

geeairmoe2: For the Saudis, just destroy all their oil wells.

AGplusone: You don’t scare someone who has nothing with bombs.

TAWN3: Saudis are allies.

geeairmoe2: We’ve got more nukes than the terrorists have friendly countries.

AGplusone: Most are, Tawn, but what about the bin Ladens?

TAWN3: See, this is what I am afraid of, over reaction.

AGplusone: Nukes aren’t going to do shit.

DenvToday: David, I agree.

Musiquelle26: Or worse, the ones suspected of talking out of both sides their mouths?

TAWN3: You don’t destroy saudi oil wells because of a Saudi criminal.

DavidWrightSr: All it would do is create a million new terrorists!

AGplusone: except piss people off.

TAWN3: By the way, we are the ones who want the oil don’t forget.

DenvToday: Besides–we need the oil. We’d be cutting our own throats.

DenvToday: lol hyep

DenvToday: yep

AGplusone: You don’t use a nuke unless you have a Harry Truman choice, do I lose 250,000 men invading.

geeairmoe2: Convince me we won’t lose 250,000 without nukes.

TAWN3: We have the moral highground. We need to keep it. Period.

DavidWrightSr: Tactical nukes against an opposing army? That might be needed.

DenvToday: We discover exactly where the terrorist camps are. We use the Israelis. We find out where the…

DavidWrightSr: But against a populated center just to give them the fear of God. No way.

AGplusone: How can I convince you? 100 hour war against Iraq enough for you?

DenvToday: terrorist leaders are hiding out. We can do this.

DenvToday: Then we go in and get them. We don’t use large invasion forces. We use commandos.

AGplusone: The vaunted Republican Guard melted into the woodwork.

DenvToday: And we don’t ask permission of the countries we enter. We just go in and get th em.

TAWN3: The Republican Guard was smart. they lived to fight another day.

TAWN3: And are still in power.

geeairmoe2: Take out the fund raisers, take out the country’s that offer sancuary.

AGplusone: It didn’t have to be that way. We didn’t have to stop.

TAWN3: Agreed, in many ways David. Except,

geeairmoe2: Put in everyone’s mind, now and forever: support terrorists, get nuked.

geeairmoe2: Give everyone the undeniable incentive to never harbor terrorists.

AGplusone: Love it, the nuke mentality.

TAWN3: I’ve always thouht showing our true honesty to the Russians was a big reason wwe stopped.

AGplusone: True terrorism.

geeairmoe2: Getting the terrorist alone is just half the problem.

AGplusone: To get one, we’ll kill ten thousand.

geeairmoe2: Look at those dancing Palestinians who taught math by, if you kill three jews then four …

AGplusone: Problem is: the nuke kills the ones appalled by the dancing.

geeairmoe2: More terrorists will be born, and our great grandchildren won’t face this problem.

DenvToday: I must be going. Bye everybody. Thanks for the excellent discussion.

geeairmoe2: We left the Gulf War half done, we can’t leave the eradication of terrorism half done.

AGplusone: But you don’t do it with Nukes.

DenvToday has left the room.

geeairmoe2: That’s what I’m talking about when “the will to see it through”.

geeairmoe2: If you can suggest something that can leave a more indeliable impression, I’m with you.

AGplusone: Tell you what, Gee. You agree to ride the Nuke down, and I will think about it.

TAWN3: Bye Denv.

TAWN3: Agree Geeair. Can’t be a half ass job.

TAWN3: Must be all out.

AGplusone: After all, it’s just a little demonstration on an unimportant town or two.

TAWN3: YEE HAH! Slim pickens!

AGplusone: or John Ezra Dalquist

DavidWrightSr: If it would work, I might agree. But it *will not* work. It will just leave…

Musiquelle26: I find myself sensitive to the idea of nukes, I must admit

DavidWrightSr: millions of terrorists around to get us later.

TAWN3: NO NUKES ARE NEEDED. I can’t believe I am hearing this.

DavidWrightSr: *create* millions of terrorists to get us.

AGplusone: exactly: my name is Jose Jimenez, you killed my father: prepare to die.

Musiquelle26: Of all that I have heard, the idea of surgical, commando type strikes fit my idea of just

AGplusone: surgical strikes are a joke

AGplusone: we were doomed by that thinking in Vietnam

TAWN3: Exactly Musiq. Surgical with supporting ground forces. NOT a stupid air war only.

DavidWrightSr: Like the one in Iran to get the hostages out

AGplusone: tea saloon idiots and newscasters

Musiquelle26: I apologize; I have little grounding in the concept of works well

TAWN3: I must sign off for a few moments

Musiquelle26: I just want to minimize how much like them we must go to get the job done

AGplusone: to do it you must land forces and take and hold the ground …

AGplusone: You can’t.

TAWN3: If I can’t sign off before you all quit, good seeing you all!

geeairmoe2: Forgive me for caring so much for the future generations of my country thal I’ll do anything….

AGplusone: See you, Tawn.

TAWN3 has left the room.

geeairmoe2: … ANYTHING to protect them.

AGplusone: No. Doing anything is unforgiveable

Musiquelle26: Killing innocents on large scale, i.e nukes, is wrong

Musiquelle26: tit for tat, so to speak.

ddavitt has entered the room.

geeairmoe2: Innocents don’t harbor terrorists.

AGplusone: We

AGplusone: don’t

AGplusone: nuke

AGplusone: them

ddavitt: Y’all still here? Don’t you have homes to go to?:-)

Musiquelle26: Hey lady…I’m stirring up the hornets nest, I fear

AGplusone: We may invade their land … and if they don’t get out of the way that’s too bad

AGplusone: but

AGplusone: We

AGplusone: don’t

geeairmoe2: Like I said, give me an option that will leave a more indeliable impression.

AGplusone: nuke

AGplusone: them

AGplusone: I’m not looking for impressions

Musiquelle26: Occupation will work, but for how long?

ddavitt: Ah..well, I just put the girls to bed and thought I’d see if there was anyone here

DavidWrightSr: You are overlooking the fact that a terrorist or small group of

ddavitt: As I missed most of the chat earlier.

Musiquelle26: Does the next generation bomb my daughter’s place of work to retaliate for that?

DavidWrightSr: terrorists don’t *have* to have a country’s support.

DJedPar: Gppd Night Jane

Musiquelle26: We’re talking a culture that has centuries of tit-for-tat retribution on all sides

AGplusone: They don’t give a damn about the people with whom they take refuge

AGplusone: I don’t want to impress anyone. I just want to kill the ones who espouse terrorism. If I have to go in

AGplusone: the next week and do it again, then so be it.

AGplusone: But I’m willing to give the ones who do not espouse terrorism the right to live afterwards.

AGplusone: I recognize that most of those people at best are along for the ride.

Musiquelle26: Then we, as a country, must maintain the vigilance, and not slump back into ….

AGplusone: At worst, they’re oppressed by the same bastards.

Musiquelle26: “damn the miltary, we don’t need them anymore” attitude

DJedPar has left the room.

Musiquelle26: There was a strong apathy about the military before the Gulf War, then it became a good thin

Musiquelle26: When I got in, most Gulf War vets were gettng out, and the country didn’t care about us

AGplusone: always the same story, Stephanie

AGplusone: most of the country doesn’t care about anything except filling its rice bowl

AGplusone: just like China

Musiquelle26: What I’m saying so poorly, is I don’t see, even IF we did nuke, that we can get rid of this

Musiquelle26: Perhaps, I’m too defeatist

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

AGplusone: We can’t doing it that way. We get rid of them the same way we get rid of the Nazi … deNazification

AGplusone: that requires occupation

AGplusone: Dave: I think we’re about done. Did you catch the part to edit out. The references to Tawn and Filly

AGplusone: in MI MOSes?

Musiquelle26: I see that part of the point. What I fear is that the violence is inherant to the religious

DavidWrightSr: Got it

AGplusone: Okay.

AGplusone: I think it is.

AGplusone: That doesn’t get solved in a generation.

AGplusone: Like the Crusades

AGplusone: the thing to do is to remove the folk that espouse it

AGplusone: Make that the deterent

AGplusone: Hang them all.

Musiquelle26: Alright. My thick skull just let in the point you were making :-)

AGplusone: And then watch the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that, ad infinitum

Musiquelle26: I’m an idiot, but at least I admit it

AGplusone: ‘a woman’s work is never done’ You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone: Love to them all, Filly

Musiquelle26: And to all of your families

ddavitt: Night everyone.

Musiquelle26 has left the room.

AGplusone: wb, Dave. I think we got it out of our systems. Jane, what next?

DavidWrightSr: Got dropped. I was just about to close it out. Anything I missed?

ddavitt: Topics?

AGplusone: nothing missed. Topics?

AGplusone: Report on Con?

AGplusone: and what else

ddavitt: Con; though it seems like a million years ago

ddavitt: After that we need to firm up some guests

ddavitt: Connie, Mr Kondo, Lois Bujold, Crais…

AGplusone: ah, …

ddavitt: All possibles

AGplusone: Okay, why don’t we just start a schedule

AGplusone: First one to say yes, we go with

ddavitt: Racism chat would be a good one; we touched on that on Thursday

TAWN3 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Bill and Andy were supposed to do that I think

AGplusone: wb, fighting through the ether, Tawn

ddavitt: We can nudge them.

TAWN3: Hi!

AGplusone: talking about schedule

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:04 P.M. EDT.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday Sept 13, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday Sept 13, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
We were due to chat about the convention but I have been asked to postpone that as not everyone is around who went.

At very short notice and to avoid missing another scheduled meeting, I’ve thrown together a quick topic; colonisation of planets and a comparison with that and the covered wagon history of America.

We may have done something similar before…but what the heck….

Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His family may have been but he was born too late. Instead he recreated their adventures and set them on different planets. The obvious book with this theme is Farmer in the Sky but there are others; the Adopted Daughter segment of TEFL, the short part at the end of Starman Jones, Red Planet, still a very new colony in many ways…

Can we see any differences in the old style pioneers and those who go to the new planets? Is the selection of suitable individuals in Farmer different from the natural selection that took place in the US? Why? Are the dangers different? What was easiest; the journey to Ganymede or to California? Which was the more dangerous, Mars or the prairie? What qualities are shown as being necessary to make a good pioneer? How do those who slipped by the selection board get weeded out?

Is Heinlein correct in his vision of a colony composed of families with youngsters; would that happen or would it be more likely to be done by scientists and the armed forces with frequent change of personnel?

And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate out there? Or something deeper?

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3B9A3A3E.E97F4FDD@home.com…

>We were due to chat about the convention but I have been asked to
>postpone that as not everyone is around who went.
>At very short notice and to avoid missing another scheduled meeting,
>I’ve thrown together a quick topic; colonisation of planets and a
>comparison with that and the covered wagon history of America.
>

Jane. PBS has been doing a series called ‘Frontier House’. Information on it is located at

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/frontierhouse/topstories/topstory.html

I haven’t been following this, but I intend to check it our further and see what insight it might give to the topic.

David Wright
In article,

Jane Davittwrote:

>
>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>family may have been but he was born too late.

Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number of times, the father not being really suitable material for the life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in, where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway, to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.

Anyway, RAH was one year older than Jack WIlliamson and JW moved to Arizona, I think, in a covered wagon with his parents. Still a little bit of a frontier left even then.

snip

>And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something
>to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t
>look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate
>out there? Or something deeper?

Well, three things, I think: it turned out the planets are far more hostile to us than we expected, it turned out space travel is a hell of a lot more expensive than was expected and it’s only about half a century since we started lobbing things into space. If we’re lucky, the analogous situation is 1492, and how long it took things to really get rolling in the new world but it might well be we just saw the space colonization version of Leif Erikson or Robert Falcon Scott, where the available tool kit was not quite up to the job.

[James Nicoll]
James Nicoll wrote:

>In article ,
>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>
>>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>>family may have been but he was born too late.
>
> Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited
>before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number
>of times, the father not being really suitable material for the
>life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in,
>where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately
>needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the
>whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use
>charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway,
>to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.
>
>

I’ve read a fair few of the books about the LH, as well as the books themselves (practically know them off by heart) and I’ve got extras, like ‘West From Home’. Laura’s letters home to Mannie when she’s visiting Rose in San Francisco.

I was a bit disconcerted when I found out that, in some ways, the LH books are fiction, not fact. Extra details, like the young brother who died as a baby were sad.

All in all though, the books themselves are perfect examples of children’s classics; enjoyable at any age and timeless in their appeal.

I have heard that Rose, a published author herself, edited the books and had a bit of an agenda when she did so. I can’t say that I ever noticed this when I read the books.

It’s ‘Ingalls’ btw not Engles….or is that a Significant Slip?.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article,

Jane Davittwrote:

>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>>
>>>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>>>family may have been but he was born too late.
>>
>> Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited
>>before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number
>>of times, the father not being really suitable material for the
>>life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in,
>>where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately
>>needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the
>>whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use
>>charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway,
>>to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.
>>
>>
>
>I’ve read a fair few of the books about the LH, as well as the books
>themselves (practically know them off by heart) and I’ve got extras, like
>’West From Home’. Laura’s letters home to Mannie when she’s visiting Rose in
>San Francisco.
>I was a bit disconcerted when I found out that, in some ways, the LH books
>are fiction, not fact. Extra details, like the young brother who died as a
>baby were sad.

I think it was Orwell in an essay on how views had changed commented on finding a tombstone which put ‘about’ before the estimate of the number of kids the woman had had. His explanation was that people expected some kids to die and didn’t keep close count back then, although I can think of other explanations.

I am trying to remember which 1800-era novel had the little sister playing too close to fire and dying when her dress caught fire. Old timey cookbooks used to have sections on burn treaments because it was fairly easy on a wood stove to get burned, esp in the restictive clothes women wore back then.

Or heck, you could just have a flue fire. My older brother was a caretaker for a farm an old Mennonite fellow had run until he died and the the half of the house the old guy used had hand pumped water woodstove heat (The half was rented to a Modern Young Thing who had a mirror over her bed. Must have made for interesting neighbors, those two). I guess he used wood with a lot of creosote and never cleaned the flue because one day the crap on the inside of the pipes caught fire and there was much running around with wet towels to stop the heat from the stove pipe from igniting the house. V exciting although I think I spent more time as a sixteen year old thinking about those mirrors.

The great thing about growing up in Mennonite country is you get to see, even experience, the stuff children’s books romanticize. After you deal with an outhouse whose pit is full, flush toilets look pretty damn good.

>All in all though, the books themselves are perfect examples of children’s
>classics; enjoyable at any age and timeless in their appeal.
>
>I have heard that Rose, a published author herself, edited the books and had
>a bit of an agenda when she did so. I can’t say that I ever noticed this when
>I read the books.
>
>It’s ‘Ingalls’ btw not Engles….or is that a Significant Slip? .
>

Nope, just a goof.

If you want a grim surprise, compare and contrast Anne of Green Gables with the life of the woman who wrote about her, Lucy Maude Montgomery.

[James Nicoll]
James Nicoll wrote:

>
> If you want a grim surprise, compare and contrast Anne of
>Green Gables with the life of the woman who wrote about her, Lucy
>Maude Montgomery.

Oh yes! I have read all of her Journals and letters ( which are fascinating in that not a lot happens exactly but you can’t stop reading about it.). Her life was tragic in many ways…as far removed from the happy endings of Emily, Jane, Pat and Valancy as you can imagine.

Again, I know all her books in great detail; when I find an author I like, I stick with them. I live not that far from one of her homes in Ontario. And, although I didn’t get married there, as so many Japanese tourists do, I insisted on going to PEI as part of our Canadian honeymoon ( I lived in the UK back then). It was not quite as I’d imagined it…..but then, few things are. I don’t think I’ll go back; the tourist hype ruined it for me. LMM would hate it. And it’s Maud…unlike Anne, there is no ‘e’ :-)

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article, Jane Davittwrote: >James Nicoll wrote:

>>
>> If you want a grim surprise, compare and contrast Anne of
>>Green Gables with the life of the woman who wrote about her, Lucy
>>Maude Montgomery.

I am afraid I have slightly reformated your lines to be less than 70 char long because on my screen the lines were doing odd things.

>Oh yes! I have read all of her Journals and letters ( which are
>fascinating in that not a lot happens exactly but you can’t stop
>reading about it.). Her life was tragic in many ways…as far removed
>from the happy endings of Emily, Jane, Pat and Valancy as you can
>imagine.

Well, that’s one reason to write, eh? End the stories the way they should have ended rather than the way that they did.

There’s an unrelenting grim stage play about her, which I saw as part of a season pass to a theatre in TO. Not knowing anything about her except that she was the author of AoGG, I went to see it on the assumption that since the two plays before it had been light comedy, this one would be too. About a minute into the play, it is clear it could not go in happy directions. Even when she is successful and there are no material barriers to happiness, the character in the play is simply incapable of enjoying herself.

>Again, I know all her books in great detail; when I find an author I
>like, I stick with them. I live not that far from one of her homes in
>Ontario.

Huh. We can’t be all that far away from each other, then.

James Nicoll
On 8 Sep 2001 13:14:18 -0400, James Nicoll

wrote:

>In article,

>Jane Davittwrote:

>>

>>And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something

>>to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t

>>look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate

>>out there? Or something deeper?

>

> Well, three things, I think: it turned out the planets are

>far more hostile to us than we expected, it turned out space travel

>is a hell of a lot more expensive than was expected and it’s only

>about half a century since we started lobbing things into space. If

>we’re lucky, the analogous situation is 1492, and how long it took

>things to really get rolling in the new world but it might well be

>we just saw the space colonization version of Leif Erikson or Robert

>Falcon Scott, where the available tool kit was not quite up to the

>job.

Plus the political angle. RAH saw the future of space flight being commercial (possibly with a bit of political hindrance, as in the people who try to stop the first flights, but nothing very serious). He didn’t forsee that it would be taken over totally by governments who forbid private enterprise to operate spacecraft and then try to satisfy the voters.

Would any of Heinlein’s corporate space enterprises have permitted the Mars lander foulups or the Challenger mess without firing the people responsible? Or abandoned the moon just because it wasn’t getting enough media attention? Heck, would they still be using ‘computers’ designed 30+ years ago which no-one now remembers how to maintain?

(And as for the European space programme, it hasn’t advanced much since the 50s. But RAH nuked Europe in so many timelines anyway…)

Chris C
One thought about the weeding out process; especially in Tunnel. It doesn’t work.

Look at it; the students had to be at a school that offered it ( or travel to that school). They had to study hard enough that their teacher would let them go. They had to survive the rigors of the planet long enough to reach the comparative haven of the settled, stobor aware village…..and with all that, Bruce and Theo are still alive and kicking.

Is this saying that true survivors aren’t always the nice ones ( Grant for instance) or was it Heinlein being aware that idyllic villages sell fewer copies? Note how short the space of time is that we see that village; Heinlein skips us ahead over a year, and a few pages later there’s a fight and then the rescue.

Every pioneer planet has its misfits in Heinlein, even Farmer with that strict but not fool proof testing system. Maybe they’re the yeast…..or the mould but they’re always there. Too any and they bring it all down in ruins, too few and there’s no one to look down on so trouble begins…

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message

news:3B9C0672.EC10167B@home.com…

>Every pioneer planet has its misfits in Heinlein, even Farmer with that strict
>but not fool proof testing system. Maybe they’re the yeast…..or the mould
>but they’re always there. Too any and they bring it all down in ruins, too few
>and there’s no one to look down on so trouble begins…

In FitS it is noted that many slip by due to political influence. Lermer’s father paid for him to be there. No weeding system is perfect*. I think Heinlein pointed this out in most of the books. Artificial methods of weeding will have artificial ways to bypass them, and will not be perfect, as they are designed and implemented by humans. Natural methods are still subjects to statistical factors. IOW blind luck plays a part.

NW

*No system other than working for Kettle Belly Baldwin. Survivors are the ones who come back.
Jane Davitt wrote in message

news:3B9A3A3E.E97F4FDD@home.com…

>The obvious book
>with this theme is Farmer in the Sky but there are others; the Adopted
>Daughter segment of TEFL, the short part at the end of Starman Jones,
>Red Planet, still a very new colony in many ways…

Jane, did you leave out Tunnel on purpose? That’s another where the whole point is the natural selection that happens after the colonist have left. IIRC the whole point of that “class” was to help them become colonist survivors?

Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
To bypass the Atans guarding my mailbox change FornMin.tam.gov to ev1.net

Oscagne wrote:

>>Jane, did you leave out Tunnel on purpose? That’s another where the whole

>point is the natural selection that happens after the colonist have left.

>IIRC the whole point of that “class” was to help them become colonist

>survivors?

>

>

Oops..not on purpose no :-) Ahem, that is to say, it was a test to see if you were all paying attention….full marks that boy!

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

James Nicoll wrote:

>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>
>>Heinlein was never a pioneer in the strict Little House type way. His
>>family may have been but he was born too late.
>
> Heh. Everyone knows about how the LH stories got edited
>before publication? The Engles were dependent on charity a number
>of times, the father not being really suitable material for the
>life he had picked (There’s an extended hunting scene left in,
>where he is too kind hearted to kill food the family desperately
>needs) but Laura Engles’ daughter was a gung ho supporter of the
>whole everyone stands on their own feet, only second-handers use
>charity idea and she cut all the references or most of them, anyway,
>to the Engles needing help, for ideological reasons.
>
> Anyway, RAH was one year older than Jack WIlliamson and
>JW moved to Arizona, I think, in a covered wagon with his parents.
>Still a little bit of a frontier left even then.
>
> snip
>
>>And finally, Heinlein saw the need to get off planet as vital, something
>>to be achieved as soon as possible. It hasn’t happened and it doesn’t
>>look like it will. is this just due to the lack of liveable real estate
>>out there? Or something deeper?
>
> Well, three things, I think: it turned out the planets are
>far more hostile to us than we expected, it turned out space travel
>is a hell of a lot more expensive than was expected and it’s only
>about half a century since we started lobbing things into space. If
>we’re lucky, the analogous situation is 1492, and how long it took
>things to really get rolling in the new world but it might well be
>we just saw the space colonization version of Leif Erikson or Robert
>Falcon Scott, where the available tool kit was not quite up to the
>job.

I think someone mentions, James, further on in this thread that the Ingalls stories are classic children’s novels. It’s been so many years since I’ve read those stories that I’m not entirely sure I did, although if they included the blizzard winter where the mother and children subsisted somehow on straw they ground with something else (some grain, I vaguely recall) in a coffee grinder, and cooked, when the father was gone off somewhere, I did. But the point why those were ideally suited as children’s novels came home to roost during the panel I was on in MilPhilCon this way:

The panel was structured around an actual class taught by a teacher in West Texas assigned to a class of ‘special’ children. I don’t know what weeding system is used in Texas in the district where he taught to determine who is ‘special’ as the euphemism goes — but his explanation of the class technique he used along with Farmer in the Sky made me infer that perhaps for some, if not most, a lack of self achievement, or familial achievement, perhaps even mere poverty, more than anything else in particular resulted in or at least influenced kids being placed in this class. A patch of hard Texas dirt was assigned the ‘special’ class, incidentally, to keep the kids occupied. Previous efforts to till this Garden of Eden had resulted in hard Texas dirt with stunty little dried up plants, if anything ever broke the surface.

Reading Farmer in the Sky to them, and emphasizing the cultivation of fertile soil from native rock, he induced the class to try what was called ‘organic gardening’ by one of the panelists. [Perhaps that is what you call it. I wouldn’t know. I’m a city boy whose grandfather had a back lot of an acre or so full of tomatoes and anything else he took it in his mind to grow after he came off his shift bolting Nash automobiles together (a garden just like Marlon Brando in The Godfather); and they never bought canned vegetables they couldn’t grow — they put the produce up in Mason jars for about two weeks every summer. Most of my uncles do the same — at least growing fresh vegetables, even in places like Cicero, Illinois; and you can even find me looking for some nice tobacco-mosiac virus resistant plants every early spring to grow in pots where my lot gets decent sun.] In any event, this teacher was a real go getter, and hit the local merchants and other community support groups for good seed, compost, fertilizer, etc., and whatever else he got; and the kids pitched in well. The kids were very enthusiastic about the story, and the garden succeeded with a great deal of local publicity and recognition for them, which encouraged their development.

The teacher’s point was the story hit the kids’ imagination right where a hit was needed, it inspired them with something they could understand perfectly. Metaphorically, my point would be the kids recognized something in themselves akin to growing fertile soil from sterile rock — but I’m too academic, perhaps.

A seemingly off-topic question came from the audience, as questions will: what makes Heinlein think that this form of agriculture will occur in planetary pioneering or agricultural production rather than others? The quick and dirty answer I gave, of course, was simple: Heinlein didn’t make an exclusive choice — one book of Heinlein does not a Heinlein prediction make (see, e.g., I Will Fear No Evil for corporate agriculture, “Logic of Empire” or Podkayne of Mars for slave or ‘indentured-servant’ plantations, the two Universe stories for hydroponic gardening, etc.). My second answer to the question, however, was this: this ‘organic’ gardening — to use the phrase in the sense it was being used in the panel (I always thought ‘organic’ was without pesticides) — was what children who read juveniles are most likely to understand, because it is the simplest form of agriculture they are likely to recognize, either from the backyard gardens they’ve seen their own parents or neighbors grow (even today in large metropolitan areas, at least they’ve likely seen someone trying to grow pots of tomatoes on balconies or rooftops), or read about in stories like the Ingalls stories of pioneering, the truck garden mother grew to sustain the family, whether the wheatfields brought home a profit or the cattle or sheep survived transportation to a market.

Farmer in the Sky comes before *most* of the adult novels dealing with pioneering of space, the generation ship of Orphans excepted, of course–that older one is an unique setting; perhaps the answer is as simple as that. Perhaps not.

As to the point of “getting off the planet” as being vital: I think it’s not exclusively the getting off the planet that is vital, it’s the invigoration of spirit, the removal from an overly structured society and its strictures that Heinlein saw as vital to human development of vital freedoms, and he found it most easily to portray on a physical frontier off in space such as his own ancestors enjoyed. If that could be done in a badlands, a “Coventry,” it would work as well, wouldn’t you say?

He relates with pleasure and pride in one of his writings the story of an ancestor over 100 years of age dying trying to harvest a buck stranded on ice. Horrors! Grandpa Simpson would never be allowed to do that! Any family that left Grandpa Simpson out where he could even see a buck on ice when he wasn’t numbed down by his medication would be prosecuted for elder abuse today, don’t you think? Good riddance, too! Homer and Marge belong in jail anyway. Letting their children watch television instead of making them read. Imagine that? 😉


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

In article,

Chris Croughtonwrote:

>
>Plus the political angle. RAH saw the future of space flight being
>commercial (possibly with a bit of political hindrance, as in the people
>who try to stop the first flights, but nothing very serious). He didn’t
>forsee that it would be taken over totally by governments who forbid
>private enterprise to operate spacecraft and then try to satisfy the
>voters.
>
>Would any of Heinlein’s corporate space enterprises have permitted the
>Mars lander foulups or the Challenger mess without firing the people
>responsible? Or abandoned the moon just because it wasn’t getting
>enough media attention? Heck, would they still be using ‘computers’
>designed 30+ years ago which no-one now remembers how to maintain?

Rememeber the comment about how exploration is often the discovery of new ways to die? In fact if I remember my RAH correctly he comments that a number of the first colonies in California starved. When one is engaged in exploring a new realm, whether physical or just engineering, expensive miscalculations due to insufficient understanding will get made: look at the Comet, for example.

The advantage of older computers is that they are space-rated, whereas a shuttle running NT might get the Blue Screen of Death 98 seconds into boost phase. Again, the historical example of tech so new it is counter-productive is the Franklin Expedition (Which drove a lot of exploration of the north as the British looked for the bodies) and its lead-sealed tins of food. Unfortunately they did not know at the time the lead solder should not be in contact with the food, not until after Franklin and his crew breathed their last.

>(And as for the European space programme, it hasn’t advanced much since
>the 50s. But RAH nuked Europe in so many timelines anyway…)

Pft. The Ariane is a decent series of launch vehicles, nicely supplying a viable niche to the tune of *two thirds* of the international launch market. The space-related activities which can actually make money are subject to vigourous competition. It’s just in the 1940s and 1950s it was not clear to the writers what activities those would be. Well, Clarke got it right in his acticle on comsats but saw the comsats as manned.

RAH wrote off Europe for reasons similar to the way Nevil Shute writes off emigres in _In the Wet_, only mirror-imaged. Two authors each picking a model which puts their kind of people at the top of heap quality-wise, what a surprise.

James Nicoll
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:46:49 -0400, “David Wright” keyed:

>
>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>news:3B9A3A3E.E97F4FDD@home.com…
>>We were due to chat about the convention but I have been asked to
>>postpone that as not everyone is around who went.
>>At very short notice and to avoid missing another scheduled meeting,
>>I’ve thrown together a quick topic; colonisation of planets and a
>>comparison with that and the covered wagon history of America.
>>
>
>Jane. PBS has been doing a series called ‘Frontier House’. Information on it
>is located at
>
>http://www.pbs.org/wnet/frontierhouse/topstories/topstory.html
>
>I haven’t been following this, but I intend to check it our further and see
>what insight it might give to the topic.
>
>David Wright
>

How does one get in on this chat? My grandparents grew up in virtual frontier culture, i.e. woodburning stove, farming, horse-and-buggy style living. I’ve absorbed as much of it as I could.

lazarus

Keep America Beautiful..Have Your Republican Spayed or Neutered

“…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Stephen F. Roberts

http://www.petitiononline.com/ddc12/petition.html

“lazarus”wrote in message

news:okmpptsn7jbt263cmirnb8heearpt4lt5s@4ax.com…

>On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:46:49 -0400, “David Wright”

>keyed:
>

(snip)

>
>How does one get in on this chat? My grandparents grew up in virtual
>frontier culture, i.e. woodburning stove, farming, horse-and-buggy
>style living. I’ve absorbed as much of it as I could.
>
>

Instructions for downloading the AIM program and joining the chat are located at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

If there are any problems, don’t hesitate to get in touch with me at:

dwrighsr@alltel.net rather than the address given in the header.

David Wright
lazarus33pjf@msn.com wrote:

>How does one get in on this chat? My grandparents grew up in virtual
>frontier culture, i.e. woodburning stove, farming, horse-and-buggy
>style living. I’ve absorbed as much of it as I could.

See,

http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm

and

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

for instructions.

You need to download the freeware, then use one of the methods to get into the room, described on Dave Wright’s page. E mail Oz, or Dave Wright, or Jane Davitt and ask them to add you to the e mail notice lists, if you wish. Thanks for asking.


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

[Editor’s Note:] These posts came after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I will open the room as usual at 9.00 pm for the scheduled chat on pioneering in Heinlein. I will understand if people don’t feel up to chatting tonight but I will be there for those that do.

I ask one thing; if the chat does inevitably turn to recent events and there are violent differences of opinion, that the discussion stops and returns to topic. This is not intended to stifle discussion but to keep the same friendly and courteous atmosphere that we are used to in the chat room.

Thank you.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3BA0AC39.A2BE80A3@home.com…

Thank you Jane. I will welcome thoughts and talk of more mundane matters.

Jim

“Nuclear Waste”wrote in message news:9nqc1p$93jda$1@ID-97148.news.dfncis.de…

>
>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>news:3BA0AC39.A2BE80A3@home.com…
>
>Thank you Jane. I will welcome thoughts and talk of more mundane matters.
>

I’m not sure that I can think or talk about more mundane matters, but I very much respect the right of others to do so.

[Joel Rosenberg]
Joel Rosenberg wrote:

>>
>I’m not sure that I can think or talk about more mundane matters, but I very
>much respect the right of others to do so.

It is difficult to move on, even a little, after something this traumatic. My six year old daughter here in Canada was sent home from school with a letter giving advice on how to counsel her about the attacks; it hasn’t really touched her as I have not watched the TV when she’s been around. Her grandparents fly out in 2 weeks and I don’t want her wondering if they too will crash. I’m worrying but she doesn’t have to.

The children may be mercifully oblivious but it’s certainly had a major effect on the adults in our community. All flags are at half mast and we are trying, like you Americans, to get to grips with the enormity of it all and what will follow.

However, getting back to normal is a positive step and I don’t intend to cancel the chat. Changing our way of life is the intended goal of the terrorists; we shouldn’t do their work for them. I would like the chance to be together with my online friends in this sad time. If the topic gets sidelined, then that is not a problem at all. I just don’t want the tensions of the moment to make natural differences of opinion escalate into an argument rather than a discussion. This doesn’t seem the time for it somehow.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

On 10 Sep 2001 11:16:03 -0400, James Nicoll

wrote:

>Rememeber the comment about how exploration is often the
>discovery of new ways to die? In fact if I remember my RAH correctly
>he comments that a number of the first colonies in California starved.
>When one is engaged in exploring a new realm, whether physical or just
>engineering, expensive miscalculations due to insufficient understanding
>will get made: look at the Comet, for example.

Yes, indeed, but would they have allowed the coverups? (Ah, yes, the Comet, still going after 50 years, the Nimrod is still the old Comet airframe. It’s beaten by the “Gooney Bird”, I hear there are still some of those in service in the Far East, but not much else in aviation.)

>The advantage of older computers is that they are space-rated,
>whereas a shuttle running NT might get the Blue Screen of Death 98 seconds
>into boost phase.

You don’t have to run crappy M$ software. There’s plenty of embedded systems running on more modern hardware than the Shuttles’ in aerospace, and a lot of it is rated for combat conditions.

>Again, the historical example of tech so new it is
>counter-productive is the Franklin Expedition (Which drove a lot of
>exploration of the north as the British looked for the bodies) and
>its lead-sealed tins of food. Unfortunately they did not know at the
>time the lead solder should not be in contact with the food, not until
>after Franklin and his crew breathed their last.

Or Arthur Clarke’s story (“Superiority”?). Yes, putting in the “newest” stuff is often a costly mistake, but using obsolete technology can be equally costly (an example is the London Tube system, where every escalator is different and repairs have to be hand-tooled, resulting in massive costs and delays. The bean-counters won’t authorise the extra cost to get them all modernised, though, because that’s “cost now” as opposed to “cost next year”…).

>>(And as for the European space programme, it hasn’t advanced much since
>>the 50s. But RAH nuked Europe in so many timelines anyway…)
>
> Pft. The Ariane is a decent series of launch vehicles, nicely
>supplying a viable niche to the tune of *two thirds* of the international
>launch market.

It works. But it’s not much advanced in 50 years (and that which has been changed has had a series of bad quality checking).

>The space-related activities which can actually make money
>are subject to vigourous competition. It’s just in the 1940s and 1950s
>it was not clear to the writers what activities those would be. Well,
>Clarke got it right in his acticle on comsats but saw the comsats as
>manned.

Of course he did, he didn’t foresee the transistor and its successors. If it’s not manned, who is going to change the vacuum tubes when they burn out? The idea that a solid-state device might be running un-maintained for decades was, at the time, just not on the cards, the early transistors were far more fragile than valves.

>RAH wrote off Europe for reasons similar to the way Nevil
>Shute writes off emigres in _In the Wet_, only mirror-imaged. Two
>authors each picking a model which puts their kind of people at the
>top of heap quality-wise, what a surprise.

It’s something most authors have to do to some extent, unless they limit themselves to the Real World(tm).

Chris C
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ddavitt: Ireland is greener I mean

SeanGaeltach: Waiting for it to come was the worst…

DavidWrightSr: that’s because of the Scotch that the Scots drink, Lusher I mean

ddavitt: Scotland is rockier, more windswpt

ddavitt: Funny!

ddavitt: It is such a long journey though

SeanGaeltach: Some parts of Ireland are very much like that. Connemara for example.

ddavitt: Took philip a week when he came home once

SeanGaeltach: I left Ireland at 4pm Thursday and got home here 6.30AM Saturday

SeanGaeltach: But went through several time zones of course.

ddavitt: It is a weird feling isn’t it?

SeanGaeltach: Being on the planes so recently gave me such a chill on Tuesday.

ddavitt: Yes; my husband flies American Airlines from Boston quite often

SeanGaeltach: My son woke me at 11pm on Monday night here…….. I didn’t end up getting any sleep at all….

ddavitt: In fact, his colleague flew into Boston on Monday and is still stranded there

ddavitt: My parents fly over 2 weeks today

SeanGaeltach: It was such a strange feeling seeing everything as it happened.

ddavitt: I will be so worried…

SeanGaeltach: Things will be ok by then Jane.

ddavitt: Yes; my friend rang me; I don’t watch TV in the day so i was oblivious

ddavitt: I hope so.

ddavitt: I keep thinking there will be more violence; I hope it is all over.

SeanGaeltach: There will be consequences…….. It’s not over

ddavitt: It has been an amazing reaction world wide

ddavitt: No but I hope the terrorists have finsihed

SeanGaeltach: I believe we need to be careful that the reaction does not create a worse problem than we have now.

SeanGaeltach: Otherwise this will be a regular cycle of events……

ddavitt: Yes; people are not in reasonable moods at the moment

ddavitt: Just hope Mr Bush is

DavidWrightSr: Right on! I want these guys punished, but I don’t want us to become like them

ddavitt: Exactly.

ddavitt: And you still don’t know it was bin Laden

ddavitt: I saw an interview last night with a v experienced soldier who had doubts

ddavitt: What could you do to him if it was him?

DavidWrightSr: Whether or not he was responsible for this one, I think there is sufficient

ddavitt: Can he be brought for trial in US?

DavidWrightSr: reason to take him out if we can find him.

ddavitt: We had so many problems with the Lockerbie bombers

ddavitt: True but I would think you would want to _know_ who did this beyond a shadow of doubt

DavidWrightSr: I am in agreement with those who want to use force, I just don’t want it to be indiscriminate

ddavitt: Sure, Laden is guilty of aother things but he can only die once.

DavidWrightSr: killing of innocent people.

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

ddavitt: If there is a possibility that the real organiser is still out there that is too awful to think of

SeanGaeltach: The evidence being collected now should prove who the guilty party/s are. There should be

ddavitt: Hi Jim

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jim

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello Jane.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hey David.

SeanGaeltach: no reason for killing innocents. Nor do I really think Bush or the US want that.

SeanGaeltach: Hi Jim

NuclearWasteUSN: Sean :-)

ddavitt: Now we have a group, anyone up to the topic?

ddavitt: I undersatnd if you don’t feel like it

SeanGaeltach: The topic is …?

NuclearWasteUSN: I am for it.

ddavitt: Pioneering in heinlein

SeanGaeltach: Ah yes……

ddavitt: farmer and such

SeanGaeltach: The Tale of the Adopted Daughter

ddavitt: Jim, you said something on afh that i meant to call you on

ddavitt: George bought Bill a ticket?

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: I don’t remember that

ddavitt: Hi there

DavidWrightSr: Most of the juvies dealing with other planets had a lot of pioneering, it seems to me

ddavitt: I thought Bill passed all the tests

DenvToday: Good evening one and all.

DavidWrightSr: George submitted the application while Bill was on a trip to Antarctica

ddavitt: Otheres, like the tarbuttle’s might have cheated

NuclearWasteUSN: No, I was talking about the guy who they bought Buck from

ddavitt: Or the idiot who Bill threatens with a spade

NuclearWasteUSN: Tale of the Adopted Daughter

ddavitt: Oh; LEAMER

ddavitt: Not Lermer

ddavitt: All clear now!:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry, was not thinking LOL

ddavitt: Very close names

ddavitt: We are looking at pioneering Denv

DavidWrightSr: Montgomery seems to have been a pet name for bad guys

ddavitt: I know why Lermer too; it was the surname of the person the book was dedicated to

DenvToday: Thanks Jane

ddavitt: Tim Morgan and I have tracked down all but one or two of the dedications

ddavitt: A list to rival L’Envoi:-)

DavidWrightSr: Who is Tim? I don’t recall having seen him around.

SeanGaeltach: Good work Jane. Will it be THJ material?

ddavitt: We will be printing it in the Journal, then it will go on jim G’s page

ddavitt: Tim will do an article based on it for the Journal

ddavitt: No, he is not a poster

ddavitt: He wanted to do something and came up with this great idea

SeanGaeltach: Who haven’t you tracked?

ddavitt: I have been bothering lots of famous people and got some fascinating data

ddavitt: Unless Tim has got it..Chris from cat

ddavitt: She or he was an editor Ginny tells me.

ddavitt: Gimnny was great; we waited till we were well and truly stuck

ddavitt: Then she filled in the gaps

ddavitt: Wait till you find out about the Glory Road one:-)

ddavitt: Sorry; wandering off topic alreadsy:-)

ddavitt: Going back to Monty; yes wasn’t max’s new step father that name? Biff Montgomery?

ddavitt: maybe Heinlein knew someone with that name and didn’t like them

DavidWrightSr: That and the ones in ‘Adopted Daughter’ are what I was thinking of

ddavitt: Whcih makes me think..who was Ace Quiggle?

ddavitt: Them too…

ddavitt: Let me check Starman Jones

DavidWrightSr: You mean who was he based on?

DavidWrightSr: or what book was he in?

ddavitt: based on

DenvToday: My favorite character name of all time is “Stinky” Stahnke. lol

ddavitt: Yes, Montgomery in starman too

DavidWrightSr: I thought I said that :-)

ddavitt: Most odd for him to use the same baddy name so often

ddavitt: Bear with me:-)

DavidWrightSr: Some ‘stinkys’ are good some bad.

ddavitt: Stinky in SIASL

ddavitt: Though that makes me uncomfy

DavidWrightSr: How so?

ddavitt: Seems a racist name..

ddavitt: Supposedly because Arabs don’t like water I read in one critical book

ddavitt: Slusser’s I think

SeanGaeltach: “Stinky” doesn’t seem racist to me ……. just rude.

ddavitt: Always wondered if Slusser was right or had an agenda there

DenvToday: Same here. Not racist.

SeanGaeltach: Ok if you were a good friend though.

ddavitt: It is rude, yes

ddavitt: Well; men might, we women are rather more polite to our friends :-)

SeanGaeltach: I had a boss once that we called “stinky” (sometimes to his face) heheh

DenvToday: “Stinky” was a popular nickname in America during the 30’s and 40’s.

ddavitt: Women don’t use nicknames like that at all

DenvToday: No racist overtones that I’m aware of.

ddavitt: Well, if it is based on the water thing then it is based on his race

ddavitt: It’s not a personal nickname I mean

ddavitt: But as I said, this was Slusser’s interpretation

ddavitt: He didn’t like Washington in Double Star either

SeanGaeltach: Haven’t read MNS yet.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I doubt that ‘Stinky’ Burke, or the unnamed ‘Stinky’ in Man too lazy

ddavitt: Called him a ‘step n’ fetch it” character

DavidWrightSr: was based on any racial things

ddavitt: We did have a racism chat lined up but Andy and Bill were supposed to do it and it got sidelined

DenvToday: I agree, David. It was the sort of nickname that boys gave to each other–an affectionate one.

ddavitt: It would be touchy maybe but interesting

DavidWrightSr: Just one occurrence of getting too ‘whiff’ and you could be stuck with for life

SeanGaeltach: I think the topic would be a good one Jane…… touchy or otherwise.

ddavitt: You men are so cruel!

ddavitt: It would if we approached it correctly

ddavitt: Looking at the time of writing in particular and the society around Heinlein

SeanGaeltach: Discussion is better than no discussion IMO.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I want to discuss Sam Beaux’s race sometime 😉

ddavitt: Yes. I don’t think H was racist but it would be good to see the developement of his treatment of non

ddavitt: WASP types

ddavitt: Heh..that is a perrenial one David

DenvToday: RAH was a groundbreaker in treating blacks and Asians in non-racial terms. For instance, in Space…

SeanGaeltach: BRB

ddavitt: cadet?

DenvToday: …Cadet. The Lieutenant at the academy.

ddavitt: Black teacher

ddavitt: and black, Hindu students

DenvToday: Just another guy. His name happend to be…….I forget. lol Asian.

DavidWrightSr: Lt. Wong?

DenvToday: Yes, I think so.

ddavitt: Yes…subtle no emphasis, very effective

DenvToday: No mention was made of his being Asian. Just another officer, completely American.

DavidWrightSr: I have said a number of times here and on the ngs that Robert was very …

DavidWrightSr: influential in getting me over my racial biases

ddavitt: One teacher is black though; Tex comments when oscar tells him off for being racist about the

ddavitt: Venerian little people

ddavitt: I can’t imagine you having any david

ddavitt: Again, being British, I have a differetn POV of it all

DavidWrightSr: Ma’am I grew up in the South.

ddavitt: Not that we don’t have racial problems but not to the same degree

DavidWrightSr: Mine was the last family to move from a neighborhood that went from all-white to all-black

ddavitt: Yes; I have read lots of books about the situation there but it is hard to comprehend to an outsider

ddavitt: We have inner city areas that are all Asian

DenvToday: I’ve been to London, Jane. I’d say the racial problem is as great there as it is here. It’s just…

DenvToday: …a bit newer.

ddavitt: It can be disconcerting sometimes

DenvToday: Paki-bashing….

DavidWrightSr: Looking back, I find that my family was not as racist as many I knew, however.

ddavitt: I lived in smaller towns; less of a problem

ddavitt: And I wasn’t brought up that way

DenvToday: There are very few minorities in smaller communites.

DenvToday: In the U.K., I mean.

ddavitt: We didn’t have many non whites in my school but those that were were just…there. No big deal.

ddavitt: They were Englsih, same as i was.

DenvToday: David, I’m impressed. Most people die with the prejudices they gained when they were young. To…

DenvToday: …change is a remarkable thing.

ddavitt: Yes it is.

ddavitt: You credit Heinlein but I think you underrate yourself

DavidWrightSr: Thanks, but as I said, without Heinlein, I doubt that I would have ever overcome

DavidWrightSr: them

ddavitt: H is good at making you take that uneasy step or two into unfamilar territory

DenvToday: I still remember being shocked to learn that Unlce Tom as black.

DenvToday: was

ddavitt: Heck, I even seriuosly tried to think of cannibalsim as OK after reading SIASL as a youngster:-)

ddavitt: In poddy?

DenvToday: Jane, it’s a good way to be rid of pesky younger brothers and sisters.

DenvToday: Yes, in Podkayne.

ddavitt: LOL

ddavitt: Yes, he was maori

ddavitt: Is that black to you?

DenvToday: I should have said Maori.

DenvToday: But his skin was black.

ddavitt: Just interested, not being sarky

ddavitt: And Poddy blonde

DenvToday: No, we wold make the distinciton here between being of African heritage or being Maori…

ddavitt: Tom was her Graet uncle on father’s side

DenvToday: …or being Aborigine.

DavidWrightSr: Well, Friday’s family thought They were OK, but definitely not the same for Tongans

ddavitt: Oh them!

ddavitt: Nasty bunch

ddavitt: Cat killers too…

ddavitt: Mr Underfoot’s fate always upsets me

ddavitt: We are doing the racism chat instead of pioneering!

DavidWrightSr: I believe that RAH did that on purpose to show just how really nasty they were

ddavitt: Yes; the ultimate sin they committed

DavidWrightSr: I am just rambling, for the most part. Can’t think of much to say about Pioneering

ddavitt: Doesn’t matter

ddavitt: We are having a nice chat about Heinlein

DenvToday: As I’m sure you said before I got here, the best pioneering interludes RAH wrote were in TEFL.

DenvToday: My favorites, anyway.

ddavitt: Well, yes, but farmer was more of a futuristic pioneering; LL did it the old fashioned way

DavidWrightSr: Has anyone looked at the ‘Learning channel’ continuing piece on ‘Frontier House’

DenvToday: Farmer in the Sky was wonderful…but I just have a special place in my heart for TEFL.

ddavitt: That is interesting; all the tech and yet L had to go in with a wago and mules

DavidWrightSr: I mentioned it, but forgot all about it in the ensuing mess.

DenvToday: No David, I’ve never seen it.

ddavitt: And on Ganymede, stilla lot of physical back breaking work involved

ddavitt: Oh yes; I have seen something similar here in canada

ddavitt: Pioeering Village or something

DavidWrightSr: PBS not Learning Channel

DavidWrightSr: I think

ddavitt: I don’t like reality TV much tho

DenvToday: Jane, did you see the series on the family that moves into the Victorian house and lives in the same..

DavidWrightSr: They did ‘1890 House’ earlier.

DenvToday: …way as the Victorians?

ddavitt: They lived a year as pioneers

DenvToday: rofl yes

SeanGaeltach has left the room.

ddavitt: Again, heard of it not watched

DavidWrightSr: Thats why I brought it up. I recall how difficult they found it to actually live

SeanGaeltach has entered the room.

DenvToday: It was a wonderful way to live–provided you had a complete staff of servants.

ddavitt: I watch little TV; just waiting for Buffy and Angel to return :-)

DavidWrightSr: that way. And that made me think what would it have been like for LL

ddavitt: Well, not so much fun for the servants

DenvToday: Exactly.

ddavitt: HE had done it lots of times

DenvToday: 90 percent of the population toiled for the comfort of 10 percent.

ddavitt: Dora was the one who was the novice

ddavitt: And she did a good job

DavidWrightSr: But she wasn’t as used to ‘modern’ stuff as LL must have been

ddavitt: No, born in a small village

ddavitt: How convincing is his explanation of why they had to go in alone?

ddavitt: I still think they could have dropped off stuff from the mother ship to help them out

DavidWrightSr: No. as he said the only thing that they had to be able to land had the..

DenvToday: Perhaps it was just one of LL’s many dodges. Perhaps he wanted to be a pioneer again. Just that…

DenvToday: …simple.

DavidWrightSr: cargo capacity of a stamp.

ddavitt: It brought down people tho

ddavitt: The old people who earth was going to kill

DavidWrightSr: Only at a place with beacons I believe

DenvToday: If you have a thousand lifetimes to live, you want variety.

ddavitt: Hmm..have to go there to get there you mean?

DavidWrightSr: Two different vehicles. One was the Captain’s gig and the other was the cargo boat.

ddavitt: OK.

DavidWrightSr: and it had to have something to guide it in IIRC

ddavitt: So..who here would like to do it in rl?

ddavitt: Not for a TV but for ever

ddavitt: Who would have stayed on tangoroa with Rod?

DavidWrightSr: Not me. I have computer withdrawal symptoms when the power goes off for an hour

ddavitt: Well, yes, i am offically addicted to the net too:-)

ddavitt: And I can’t live without books

DenvToday: Jane, that’s a darned good question.

ddavitt: Thank you ,g>

DenvToday: The kids did a wonderful job. If they had not been rescued, they would have made a go of it.

ddavitt: I hated it when they all went home and left him

ddavitt: The first time I read it I was so on his side

DenvToday: But…to be able to see your families again, and say no?

ddavitt: I know…

ddavitt: But they wimped out and left him..

DenvToday: To turn down a life of luxury and learning for the life of a pioneer?

ddavitt: He had to go back

DavidWrightSr: But until Helen and Deacon showed up, he probably thought that he really had no family to see

ddavitt: He had to do it right

ddavitt: Yes; once they came and told him his parenst were back, he had no choice

ddavitt: And he couldn’t have stayed alone

ddavitt: He was like a cpatain not wanting to abandon ship

ddavitt: But it trivialised all they had done

DavidWrightSr: He also finally realized that staying was a dead-end.

DenvToday: I love the image of him at the very end. I see him as Clint Eastwood, loaded for bear. lol

ddavitt: Like kids playing and then mom calls them in for bed time

ddavitt: Yes; I want a sequel!

DavidWrightSr: ‘The Adventures of Captain Walker- Star Explorer’

DenvToday: lol Yes.

ddavitt: Anyone reads the grown up version of Tunnel? Niven and Pournelle’s legacy of heorot?

DavidWrightSr: No.

ddavitt: So similar…great book which has to have Clint playing Cadmann

DenvToday: To be honest, if you have the incredible technology to have planet-transfer gates…

DavidWrightSr: I read Pournelle a lot, but not that one

ddavitt: I recoomend it david. the sequle not so good but it is a great book

DenvToday: ..then I find it difficult to believe that oxen would be your best choice in taming a frontier.

ddavitt: Sturdy, strong?

DavidWrightSr: Not that I have anything against, just don’t have a copy :-)

ddavitt: Try it, let me know if you think it is similar.

DenvToday: Yes, but they would have technology available to be better. Hover craft…something.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll look for it

ddavitt: Very exciting story. Their stobor are mean…

ddavitt: Hover craft need fuel and can’t be eaten in a famine

DenvToday: RAH never mentioned that it’s robots spelled backwards, did he?

ddavitt: And can’t breed more

DavidWrightSr: To paraphrase Bill Lermer, “oxen can reproduce more oxen and that’s a trick that hovercraft…

DavidWrightSr: haven’t learned”

ddavitt: No; we all saw it but I read he didn’t know he’d done it

ddavitt: Yes, i was about to say that LL said that, couldn’t recall it

DavidWrightSr: I have always had a feeling that ‘stobor’ was a gentle joke against Asimov. No proof, just a feeling

ddavitt: It’s a funny word to come up with tho

ddavitt: We need Ginny

ddavitt: She would know

DenvToday: David, true. But it’s like Star Trek. They have “beaming” technology. They can transform molecules

DenvToday: to do whatever they wish.

DenvToday: Yet they still crawl through tunnels on their knees. Huh?

DavidWrightSr: Who has such technology?

DenvToday: Doesn’t make sense.

DavidWrightSr: In Tunnel?

DenvToday: No, I was talking about Star Trek. I was pointing out the inconsistency.

ddavitt: Those tunnels…always need them in the plot

DenvToday: lol yes. Exactly.

ddavitt: Jim, you are quiet? Any thoughts on this? I am being a bad host

DenvToday: In FITS, if they have the technology for the gates, that same level of technology would spread to

DenvToday: every part of their lives.

ddavitt: Tunnel you mean?

DenvToday: But RAH *wanted* oxen.

ddavitt: Wonder why onlt Tunnel has gates

DenvToday: No, Farmer in the Sky.

ddavitt: No gates in farmer, just ships

DenvToday: Aaack Tunnel

DenvToday: Yes. lol

ddavitt: I know what you mean even when you don’t :-)

DenvToday: Sorry, I meant Tunnel.

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: I like the gates.

ddavitt: They are interesting

ddavitt: No need for ships…

DenvToday: It doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t have tremendous technology that would make pioneering…

ddavitt: and not that hazardous on the whole

DenvToday: …very easy. But then that would ruin it for RAH if it was easy.

ddavitt: BUT what happens when they run out of uranium?

DavidWrightSr: Not necessarily, gate technology might not have all that much application other than simply transport

ddavitt: Or are we to assume the new planets will have an infinite supply

DenvToday: The prime attraction of pioneering for RAH was the “culling” aspect. The weak and the dull…

ddavitt: V expensive to keep them open

DenvToday: …and the cowards were all culled from the herd.

ddavitt: But some of the Chines who go are just surplus to requirements

DavidWrightSr: Message is too long or too complex

ddavitt: That is a brutal scene at the beginning

DavidWrightSr: I think it safe to say that some gates would open onto worlds with heavy metals

DavidWrightSr: such as uranium for mining

ddavitt: The Australian desert that blooms like the rose..then becomes a slum

DenvToday: David, let’s leave Van Halen out of this.

ddavitt:

DenvToday: mea culpa

DavidWrightSr: Pardon? Oh you mean Heavy Metal Rock Groups. Not for me youngster

DavidWrightSr: :0

DavidWrightSr: :-)

DenvToday: Sorry, it was a terrible pun. So sorry.

ddavitt: I once did a post on the square dancing theme that always crops up in the pioneering ( and other0 boo

ddavitt: books

DavidWrightSr: Sounds like another article Jane O:-)

ddavitt: H seemed to focus a lot on the ‘rituals’ that held the communities together

ddavitt: A mini one maybe :-)

ddavitt: Who here has read the Little House books?

DavidWrightSr: rituals are important in all of his works I’d say for that reason. They give

DavidWrightSr: structure.

SeanGaeltach: Back…… (work commitments)

DenvToday: I did when I was very young.

ddavitt: They have a lot of that sense of coming together to cope with the lonliness

DavidWrightSr: They hadn’t been written when I was young. 😎

ddavitt: I love them…David Silver mentioned the Long Winter one

ddavitt: I can’t beleive that!

ddavitt: Came out in the 1950’s?

DenvToday: While I admire the pioneering spirit, I would not like to be a pioneer. At least not in the 19th

DenvToday: century style.

DavidWrightSr: Pournelle made a lot out of military ritual in the Falkenberg books as did RAH in Space Cadet

ddavitt: They almost died because no food came through for months and the snows didn’t stop

ddavitt: All forms of bonding disparate individuals into a team

DenvToday: I’m like David. If the power goes off for an hour, I start getting very edgy. lol

ddavitt: Like Starship troopers too

ddavitt: Yes; the millenium bug scare was scary as I have no skills at all. i can’t make soap for instance

DenvToday: We all like to admire the pioneers, but I doubt any of us would have enjoyed the experience.

ddavitt: Or do a lot on LL’s list

ddavitt: They were a tougher bunch

DavidWrightSr: You mean like ‘butcher a hog’?

ddavitt: Still; mu mum used to wash and use a mangle…

DenvToday: Mind-numbing, back-breaking work, most of it drudgery. Freezing in winter, dying of horrible, wet…

ddavitt: Definitely that one!

DenvToday: diseases in summer.

ddavitt: We housewives have it so easy…read an old Mrs Beeton about hosework. Phew!

DenvToday: We always read of the successful pioneers. But consider going through all that work, all that…

ddavitt: The work they had to do…

DenvToday: …pain…and being one of the ones who die young, having accomplished nothing.

ddavitt: Or plant a crop and the grasshoppers get it

ddavitt: Or a hail storm comes..

ddavitt: Heart breaking

DenvToday: Suicide rates were alarmingly high for pioneer women. Little-known, but true.

DavidWrightSr: or as someone said, ‘not investing too much love in a child, because so many died’

DenvToday: Yes, exactly David. I cannot even being to imagine how horrible that would be.

ddavitt: Don’t blame them; the emptiness of their lives..

DenvToday: begin

ddavitt: Infant mortality is only recently becoming not the norm

ddavitt: We are so lucky

DenvToday: It’s a bit like tribes in New Guinea. We all approve of them leading pristine tribal lives, untouched

ddavitt: We expect our children to live

DenvToday: by Western corruption. But none of us would like to be one of them.

ddavitt: Nope.

ddavitt: And yet…why should we?

DavidWrightSr: Our so-called longer lives is due a great deal to the lowering of infant mortailty

DenvToday: And anti-biotics.

ddavitt: It’s like feeling guolty because we have food and others starve

ddavitt: The point isn’t for us to starve too; it’s for them to be at our level

ddavitt: Nothing wrong with where we are

ddavitt: Just need to reach down and help people up to join us

SeanGaeltach: Pioneer = One who ventures into unknown or unclaimed territory to settle.

ddavitt: Final frontier

SeanGaeltach: Is it easier to pioneer space…… or 19th C Earth?

ddavitt: That was my first thought; will we colonise the planets as H imagined?

DenvToday: Sean, I’d be happy to be a pioneer. As long as they have air conditioning, good plumbing and Cheetohs

ddavitt: Or is it too far off to even imagine

DavidWrightSr: I hope so. I fervently hope so.

SeanGaeltach: I don’t know. I wish it was as easy as he predicted.

ddavitt: Mars could be livable, certainly the moon

SeanGaeltach: Was it easy?

SeanGaeltach: Seemed to me that it was. Even with some tragedies.

ddavitt: Not life as we are used to…but the children of the pioneers will be at home

ddavitt: Peggy’s death was very sad in farmer

DenvToday: Being a space pioneer would be easy, by comparison. Your life would be relatively comfortable–if

DenvToday: you live.

SeanGaeltach: H made it seem so real and possible. It just *seemed* easy I guess.

ddavitt: We won’t get to go though

ddavitt: Ou children won’t either :-(

DenvToday: I wouldn’t be so sure about our children.

SeanGaeltach: I would rather be a pioneer in space. We may go, somehow…….

ddavitt: I hope so

SeanGaeltach: Seen Contact?

DenvToday: Yes, I did.

ddavitt: I want to see the earth from space before I die

ddavitt: No, is it good?

DenvToday: It was a bit new-agey for my tastes.

SeanGaeltach: I liked it. Highly recommended Jane (from me at least). The Sagan book was good too.

ddavitt: I will try it/them

DavidWrightSr: I read the book and saw the movie. What surprised me about the book

SeanGaeltach: I mentioned Contact because it shows how something (incredible) could happen…….

DavidWrightSr: and was not in the movie, was a strong belief in God. Seemed strange for Sagan

SeanGaeltach: His co-author may have been responsible for that….

DavidWrightSr: Of course, I could have misread it :-)

SeanGaeltach: I thought he balance God and science pretty well…… both were strong.

SeanGaeltach: If Sagan could write about certain possibilities – I will hold out hope for us……. one day, maybe.

SeanGaeltach: :-)

ddavitt: I have to go now; lauren is crying and I’m pretty tired

SeanGaeltach: Then we can pioneer to our hearts content.

ddavitt: Thank you for coming tonight and chatting

DenvToday: Sean, I admire your optimism. Good for you.

DenvToday: Bye Jane.

SeanGaeltach: G’night Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Night Jane,

ddavitt: I know it can’t have been easy for some of you

DenvToday: I must be going soon too. I have to be up at 4 AM

ddavitt: Before I go; a moment’s silence as we did for Poul maybe?

DenvToday: Yes, it’s been a horrible couple of days.

DenvToday: Yes, good idea.

DavidWrightSr: Amen to that

ddavitt: Thanks again. Good night friends. I’m glad you are all safe.

DenvToday: Thanks Jane.

ddavitt has left the room.

DenvToday: I must be off too. See you all on Saturday.

DavidWrightSr: So long Denv

DenvToday: Thanks for the great discussion.

DenvToday: Night :-)

DenvToday has left the room.

SeanGaeltach: OK…. seems like it’s a wrap. I better do some work now.

DavidWrightSr: You mean like a ‘job’ ?

SeanGaeltach: Yep.

SeanGaeltach: Gotta pay for my trips to Ireland etc. etc.

DavidWrightSr: :-) Ok I’m going to close out the log. See y’all Saturday maybe

SeanGaeltach: Bye……. I’m off . Take care.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 10:26 P.M. EDT

SeanGaeltach has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night Jim, Sean.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 08-18-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Tennyson/Maureen

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 08-18-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Tennyson/Maureen

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
[Editor’s Note: Following post is a continuation from posts made before the 8-16-2001 Discussion. See log from 08-16-2001]

Saturday, August 18th we’ll continue chatting about “Back To the Future (History)” or maybe, forgive me, “Herstory.”

I got to thinking about the title: To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

Aside from an obvious theme of resurrection of Maureen, the photo of Venus borne on the cover, why?

Long quotation coming up here …

ULYSSES, Alfred Lord Tennyson

“It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match’d with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.

“I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoy’d
Greatly, have suffer’d greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro’ scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honour’d of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.

“I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro’
Gleams that untravell’d world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
As tho’ to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

“This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle–
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro’ soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

“There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
There gloom the dark broad seas. My mariners,
Souls that have toil’d, and wrought, and thought with me–
That ever with a frolic welcome took
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
Free hearts, free foreheads–you and I are old;
Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
’Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. ”

Uh-huh … nice sentiment. Who’s speaking? The old red-haired fox himself.

Why is Maureen the first person narrator? Forgive me, but isn’t she “the old red-haired fox” herself?

I think I’d like to plan around with this silly notion for perhaps the first hour Saturday. Why, exactly, did Heinlein pick such a title out of such a poem about such a magnificent character? Are there many marked similarities between the two? If so, why?

a little fun, perhaps, about where RAH may have been headed in the “World As Myth” had it continued …


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

“David M. Silver” wrote:

>
>I think I’d like to plan around with this silly notion for perhaps the first
>hour Saturday. Why, exactly, did Heinlein pick such a title out of such a poem
>about such a magnificent character? Are there many marked similarities between
>the two? If so, why?

David, I see many lines in this poem that would have resonated strongly with Maureen and, indeed, many of the Howards. Here are some ( I have taken out some weird symbols that popped up);

“I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoyed
Greatly, have suffered greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone;”

The eternal burden of a long lifer…more joy and more sorrow. Some Maureen faces with her family, in the later part of her life, before the rescue, she is alone and again when she is imprisoned.

“Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honoured of them all;”

This could refer to her involvement with the Harriman Corporation; of vital importance as we discover.

“I am a part of all that I have met;”

Her personality is, to a great degree, formed by those she loved; her father, Twain, even Brian.

“How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnished, not to shine in use!
As though to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains:”

She experiences the drag of her years at several points, even as Lazarus does at the start of TEFL. She doesn’t want to be an old woman, incapable of bearing new life and therefore useless in her society of long lifers, discarded by her husband for a more youthful version of her.

“And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star”

She does seek knowledge, signing up for as many university courses as she can, a chance to study that was not available to her in her youth and that family commitments would have made difficult in middle age.

“Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,”

She takes on new duties as rejuvenator and spy.

“Come, my friends,
Tis not too late to seek a newer world.”

Boondock…..

“To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. ”

Her motto for life.

I do like Tennyson….L M Montgomery, not Heinlein, introduced me to his poetry but finding that Heinlein liked it, as well as many other of my favourite poets, was a bonus as I could spot the references in his books.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone: Hi, Dave

DavidWrightSr: Hi made it.

AGplusone: wb to the magic world of chat rooms …

maikoshT has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Good I got both of my alter egos in.

DavidWrightSr: S’Ok. I’m going to have to miss first part of discussion. My wife needs me to

DavidWrightSr: take her shopping for a bit.

AGplusone: good. I actually enjoy shopping with my wife. Have for years.

AGplusone: Of course she understands not to take me anywhere near a delicatessen counter

DavidWrightSr: Keep the log in case both maikosht or my regular sign on leaves unexpectedly

AGplusone: I will. Dave. Come back when you can.

DavidWrightSr: I have two computers going, but both are dependant on a single dialup

DavidWrightSr: so if the line drops. both are down.

AGplusone: Any chance you might get to the Con in atlanta being held the labor day weekend?

AGplusone: Called DragoonerCon, or DragonCon or some such

DavidWrightSr: I do both because my regular sign on computer sometimes goes crazy on the screen

DavidWrightSr: and I can see it

DavidWrightSr: I don’t know. Faint possibility, but I doubt it.

AGplusone: I’m about to set up an ethernet now that I’ve got a router installed so I can do the same

AGplusone: hook up my wife’s laptop

DavidWrightSr: I’d love to have DSL, but neither it nor cable access is available where I live

AGplusone: That’s a shame. It will be soon. How do you hook up two at the same time with a dial-up?

DavidWrightSr: cable is supposed to be here sometime soon, but I haven’t heard very good

DavidWrightSr: things about it.

AGplusone: Buy two accounts?

DavidWrightSr: Windows 98 has a feature which allows the dialing computer to serve as a

DavidWrightSr: local tie-in to any other windows 98 computer on the same network

AGplusone: and so you echo onto the other?

DavidWrightSr: It works just like a router as far as the second computer is concerned

AGplusone: What does Windows call the network you set up? A LAN?

AGplusone: I see

DavidWrightSr: Yes.

AGplusone: okay, using the VirtualPC it sets up a quasi-LAN within my computer.

DavidWrightSr: It sets up its own IP addressing which it hands out to any one on the lan

DavidWrightSr: Dave. I’ve got to run. I’ll be back as soon as I can.

AGplusone: I haven’t download … see you.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Good evening, all!

AGplusone: Welcome Finlandia!

KultsiKN: A fine piece of music…

AGplusone: How close was I on that A-S chronicle translation?

AGplusone: I have a copy by von Karajan with Berlin Orch

KultsiKN: You did it better than I ever could.

AGplusone: But I’d read it before … for fun!

AGplusone: Altho I’m not sure it was the Worchester version

AGplusone: David Wright is off helping his wife shop. Be back later.

KultsiKN: I did understand some because of my knowledge of Swedish & German.

DJedPar has entered the room.

AGplusone: Exactly. In school we had a gloss that noted where cognates existed in Old N and Old HG or LG

KultsiKN: BTW – what’s kunnynge?

AGplusone: Hi, Denis. Met Kultsi …

DJedPar: Yes. Hi Kultsi, David, all

KultsiKN: Hello, Denis!

AGplusone: I’m afraid to guess. I’d think of one thing but say cunning first.

AGplusone: In the Wif of Bath’s tale it’s quiente (sp?) a French word

KultsiKN: I asked because ‘kuningas’ is ‘king’ in Finnish.

AGplusone: Cyning in AS

AGplusone: which shortens to Cyng by the time of that passage, thence to King

KultsiKN: Swedish (short form) for ‘king’ is ‘kung’

AGplusone: Hm … we’re talking about a passage in late A-S that Dave Wright put up on AFH Denis

AGplusone: I tried my level best to translate it.

AGplusone: The one about the battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066

DJedPar: Glad to see you included the chat between both D’s in the log.

AGplusone: The early one?

AGplusone: About the “old days” when we were both sorta younger?

DJedPar: Yes. Indeed.

AGplusone: Fun to reminisce

DJedPar: Always. At our age.

AGplusone: Best part of being ‘mature’ …

SAcademy has entered the room.

DJedPar: Hi Ginny.

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny.

SAcademy: Hello Denis.

AGplusone: g’day, Miss (er, Mrs.) Virginia :-)

SAcademy: Hi, Kultsi.

SAcademy: Hello, David

AGplusone: Do you know that in Spanish you never go wrong addressing a lady as señorita

SAcademy: Did I miss anyone?

AGplusone: David Wright is off helping his wife shop. He’ll be back soon.

AGplusone: We just started.

AGplusone: Jane and Bill will be by second hour they said

AGplusone: And Ron Harrison said he’d drop in …

SAcademy: Quite the family party

KultsiKN: So Jane’s going to attend after all.

KultsiKN: Good.

AGplusone: So what about my theory that Maureen is really intended to be Tennyson’s Ulysses? Anyone agree?

AGplusone: Or am I totally off-the-wall again?

KultsiKN: Jane made some very good points for.

DJedPar: I’m not all that familiar with Tennyson.

AGplusone: Beautiful poem …

KultsiKN: Neither am I.

AGplusone: I posted it on AFH

DJedPar: Will look into it.

AGplusone: old, old Useless … all his buddies are long retired … Telemachus is ruling now …

KultsiKN: I can’t really get the hang of poetry in English.

AGplusone: they feel useless … so he calls them together and they get a ship and go on one final adventure

DJedPar: I`m more into Prévert and some of the other Frenchies.

AGplusone: ‘to sail beyond the sunset’ out past Gibralter’s pilars …

SAcademy: EVer done that?

DJedPar: I love that title.

KultsiKN: To drop over the edge of the world.

Dehede03 has entered the room.

Dehede03: howdy, folks

AGplusone: No, but I’ve thought about doing it … how come Star doesn’t show up on Venice beach and invite me to

SAcademy: Hello, Ron

KultsiKN: Hi, Ron!

AGplusone: some room in a dive nearby to meet a fat lawyer with a blunderbus

Dehede03: Hi, Ginny and all

AGplusone: I keep hoping to see a personal address to Heros

AGplusone: -ed

AGplusone: oes

DJedPar: A blunderbus?

SAcademy: Welll there are a lot of dolphins there

AGplusone: Well, horse pistols are hard to find in Venice

Dehede03: Hey, Dave. Some of us get invited and some of us don’t

AGplusone: OTOH I know where there’s a blunderbus

Dehede03: Yes, but you have to be in the in-crowd

Dehede03: lol

DJedPar: Where…. where?

AGplusone: And it does tie in to the Burrough’s irrelevancy buses that come by every so often.

KultsiKN: Ah… Hope they open a service this way, too.

AGplusone: They fixed my broken nose … it’s sorta straight now, so I supposed I don’t qualify and the scar can

AGplusone: hardly be seen.

SAcademy: Are we writing fiction tonight?

Dehede03: I am

DJedPar: Maybe…

AGplusone: Setting Maureen up in the Ulysses position augered well for a very interesting World as Myth series ..

AGplusone: that might have been written had there been time and space enough

Dehede03: brb

Dehede03: back

AGplusone: I’d imagine Doctor Johnson would have done well as Nestor as well.

AGplusone: Then Woody could revert to his proper role, as Telemachus

SAcademy: Anyone know what Telemachus means?

Dehede03: No, I would love to learn

DJedPar: No.

AGplusone: No, I don’t.

SAcademy: Neither do I . Will have to dig out the Aeneid to find out.

AGplusone: Oh, God, no! Names within names ….

DJedPar: Oooh that hurted.

AGplusone: Didn’t recall Telemachus in Aeneid, do you mean the Odyssey?

Dehede03: My heroes have always been Odysseus and Athene

SAcademy: No, I never studied Greek

Dehede03: I have barely touched Latin

AGplusone: Never did either. Read a lovely translation of the Odyssey I recommend however.

AGplusone: Really good one.

SAcademy: The MIlton one?

SAcademy: Milton

DJedPar: Did Milton do a bit on the Odyssey?

SAcademy: I think so.

DJedPar: I can imagine it.

AGplusone: I can’t put my hand on my copy. Translator I refer to is either Graves (not the one who did the I, Cla

AGplusone: dius, but another one.] issued about 1964

KultsiKN: Telemachus is the Latinazation of Telemachos; son of Odysseus and Penelope

AGplusone: or a fellow named Fitzgerald … can’t remember which one it is.

SAcademy: Oh, I was finished with school by that time so I didn’t learn about that one.

AGplusone: I have the one by D … can’t recall his name right now (senior moment) the poet critic of the sixteen

Dehede03: Folks, I apologise but I am feeling ill and headed for my bed. Bye

AGplusone: th century.

Dehede03 has left the room.

AGplusone: I’m sorry ron

AGplusone: tele means what in greek?

KultsiKN: remote, I guess.

DJedPar: Carry

SAcademy: Don’t know.

AGplusone: looking

AGplusone: “far off”

AGplusone: maybe ‘machos’ means “son”?

KultsiKN: Wasn’t he born after Odysseus left?

AGplusone: ‘macho’ in Latin of course, means “masculine”

AGplusone: masculus, -i

AGplusone: a strong virile man

KultsiKN: Merriam-Webster only has the Spanish etyma

DJedPar: tele = end, as in to the end.

DJedPar: Operating at a distance or far away

AGplusone: I’m looking at Simon & Schuster’s Webster’s New World, 2d ed ©1984 College ed.

DJedPar: from Telos in greek

AGplusone: Sending my daughter to college had one benefit … replaced my old dictionary with a good one.

DJedPar: Tail…. were back to Maureen.!

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody.

AGplusone: In Maureen many people see someone who is more than just “irregular” … was there a classic novel

DJedPar: The best source for Greek and Latin derivatives is a medical dict.

AGplusone: about an “irregular” lady to whom that may refer? Hi, Ron. Welcome

DenvToday: Thanks Dave.

AGplusone: Fanny Hill, maybe, or someone else with that sort of title. Moll Flanders?

DenvToday: Or even Myra Breckenridge. lol

AGplusone: reason I ask is rarely do I see an unfiled serial number if I look hard enough in the later RAH

AGplusone: or to put it another way, the allusions are always rife

AGplusone: Flanders was one lady who really overcame the adversities of her society …

AGplusone: as Maureen does, whether she’s fourteen or one hundred plus

DenvToday: Good point.

AGplusone: She always found a way to put her mind to doing what she wanted to do, eventually, no matter what her

AGplusone: father, her mother, her husband, her society, told her she should do.

AGplusone: The Gods were against Ulysses

AGplusone: but he got home

DenvToday: Yes, he did.

AGplusone: Is it fair to say possibly the parallelism is intended deliberately by RAH in writing Maureen’s tale

AGplusone: or is that too much a stretch.

AGplusone: What are the arguments against it?

DenvToday: No, not too much of a stretch.

DenvToday: But…

AGplusone: but me lots of buts

AGplusone: as my mother never said

AGplusone: “But me no buts … ” old saying of hers.

DenvToday: I’ve always felt that RAH was referring to himself in the poem Ulysses…as well as to his characters.

AGplusone: Do you think it possible Maureen is more like RAH than other characters. He seems to have put a lot of

DenvToday: “Old age hath yet his honor and his toil…”

AGplusone: his childhood, the wagon rides with the doctor grandfather, etc., into her.

DJedPar: I donno Denv, that doesn’t sound right, or Dave.

AGplusone: Did Alva introduce Robert to Twain’s writings anyway, he couldn’t have introduced him personally. MT

AGplusone: died the year RAH was born?

AGplusone: We know Robert played chess, as did Woody, but does anyone remember if Maureen did too?

SAcademy: 1907

AGplusone: Possibly taught by her father?

SAcademy: It was 7-7-07

DenvToday: Was Maureen modeled after RAH’s mother in any way?

AGplusone: I’ve always wondered that too. We know very little about his mother.

AGplusone: Bam Lyle

SAcademy: Noot at all. My motherinlaw was a very straight laced old lady.

DJedPar: Died when?

AGplusone: More like the former Miss Pfeiffer?

SAcademy: Robert always said that she never let her fingers know what her thumbs were doing.

DenvToday: rofl Great line!

AGplusone: yes

AGplusone: almost as good as Tom Swift and His Electric Grandmother

SAcademy: Didn’t you read that as a boy? I did.

DenvToday: It is the ultimate irony that RAH had a reputation for sexism, when he was extolling independent…

DenvToday: …competent women before most other writers.

AGplusone: Did Robert like Maureen O’Hara movies? And what color was Maureen O’Sullivan’s hair IRL. All I’ve ever

AGplusone: seen are black and white photos.

SAcademy: Not that i know of.

AGplusone: and everyone always forgets that Puddin’s real name is Maureen …

SAcademy: I forget it too. Accident, maybe.

DenvToday: I think many critics didn’t like that RAH’s women characters could be the equal (or usually the…

DenvToday: …superior) of men without disliking men.

AGplusone: And usually led men around by their noses …

AGplusone: viewed one way

SAcademy: Robert always deferred to women. I can’t see why they think he’s sexist.

DenvToday: Yes. But they were always aware of and considerate of the feelings of “the poor dears.”

DenvToday: I can’t either.

DJedPar: He wasn’t in any sense. Was he. Ginny?

AGplusone: Robert’s writings were prominent. In the 60s it became a shooting gallery to attack male writers who

SAcademy: No, not rteally, Maybe they didn’t like to be helped into cars? I don’t know

DenvToday: I think he got that undeserved reputation from Stranger. Jubal would yell “Front” and one of the…

AGplusone: presumed to write female characters outside feminist accepted ‘dogma’

DenvToday: …girls would appear. Never mind that they were supremely competent.

AGplusone: And Deety and the rest never fit into the ‘dogma’ of some

AGplusone: too sexy and liked men too much

DenvToday: Exactly Dave.

SAcademy: Me, I get angry when a taxi driver (male) doesn’t hold the door for me.

AGplusone: Now if he’s written a man-hating woman character, they’d have left him alone.

DenvToday: Taxi drivers, be warned! lol

AGplusone: I get angry when someone calls me ‘dude’

SAcademy: Really?

SAcademy: Have to remember that one.

DJedPar: I wonder if Jane likes being a “Dudette”?

AGplusone: oh yeah … I’m “Mr.” to you until I tell you otherwise.

AGplusone: I always thought it was dudess

SAcademy: Okay, Mr. Silver it will be from now on.

AGplusone: all you you are ‘otherwise’

AGplusone: of yo

AGplusone: all of you … knew I could get it right

DenvToday: Well-done

SAcademy: Fingers twisted?

AGplusone: No, second beer

AGplusone: been a long day already

SAcademy: That alcohol stuff, it will get you every time!

DJedPar: We forgive you, monsieur.

AGplusone: It does, isn’t it great!

AGplusone: Two beers and I’ll smile at everyone

SAcademy: Dunno. Never touch it myself. Or only rarely.

KultsiKN: K, I go and open that Red.

AGplusone: beer is the breakfast of all growing teenage boys ….

SAcademy: That is actually true, I don’t drink alone.

AGplusone: and you were right, Ginny. white wine doesn’t give me hangovers

DJedPar: You never did drink much, did you, Ginny?

AGplusone: [teenage boys wish it so, anyway]

SAcademy: Oh, good.

DenvToday: I never thought of it until now, but alcohol doesn’t appear very often in RAH’s works.

SAcademy: No, Denis. only at sea. Then I am a two fisted drinker.

AGplusone: No, it doesn’t. We drank a Manhattan in his honor tho, on 7-7-00 when we had the meeting out here of

DJedPar: I have a hard time visualizing that. OK.

SAcademy: Robert liked a predinner drink and a night cap

AGplusone: Steve, Bill, and a couple others.

AGplusone: Bartenders made terrible manhattans. a lost art.

SAcademy: Yes, Denis, two bloody Marys before lunch and several drinks before dinner and wine with dinner.

DenvToday: Dave, Manhattans are chic again.

AGplusone: Then I’ll have to go somewhere chic and tell the bartender how to really make one.

DJedPar: Thanks, Ginny.

SAcademy: Robert used to like brandy manhattans.

AGplusone: I liked Crown Royal manhattans when I drank them

SAcademy: When I was in college I liked Alexanders. But haven’t had one since then. One, perhaps.

AGplusone: take a sugar cube, put it in a glass, two drops of bitters in it, crush it slowly with a pestle ….

DJedPar: Denv… remember Alex in Job tying one one?

AGplusone: Oh, yes …. Swedish whats?

AGplusone: Zombies?

DenvToday: Hmmm…I don’t remember that. It’s been quite a while. I plan on rereading it.

KultsiKN: Yup, zombies.

SAcademy: Urk. don’t like rum drinks at all.

DJedPar: Lots of drinking in Job.

DenvToday: I’ll get my copy….

AGplusone: Let me drag it out … what he was drinking was a classic huge hangover.

DJedPar: The Captain made him do it.

KultsiKN: Indeed: ice cold Akvavit, zombies…

SAcademy: Once I had a French 75 party on shipboard.

DenvToday: silver fizzes on page 46

SAcademy: brandy with champagne to top it off. Highballs.

AGplusone: French 75s are fun … can’t find my copy. I’m between remodel of the bedroom where I keep most of my

AGplusone: books, with wall bookcases …

SAcademy: We warned them, but they tasted like soda pop.

KultsiKN: You take four schnapps, you are not drunk. Top it with one zombie, and you are not yourself anymore.

AGplusone: Funny thing: only time I ever had a 75 was in a place that specialized in Zombies.

DJedPar: I’ve never heard of that. Brandy with Champagne… Not French.

SAcademy: So we ended the evening with the Captain crawling off, and most of us going to bed, so when he couldn’

DenvToday: Bailey’s Irish Cream isn’t liquor, it’s dessert. So it’s impossible to get tipsy from it.

DenvToday: That’s what I keep telling myself.

SAcademy: t find anyone, he pulled the whistle for a fire drill.

AGplusone: Champagne in a wide sherbert glass. Ice cube. Float it. Pour shot of brandy over it. Don’t stir or

DJedPar: Sounds like a scene from Job.

AGplusone: shake. Drink it and drink another.

AGplusone: Then die

DenvToday: rofl

AGplusone: Is that how they made the 75s aboard the ship, Ginny?

DenvToday: The captain crawling off isn’t an image that inspires confidence in me. lol

SAcademy: No, a jigger of brandy and the champagne was added as a mixer.

DJedPar: Sadly, my drinking days went that-a-way a long time ago.

AGplusone: Ah, exactly opposite to the way we did it.

DenvToday: I can’t take the calories anymore.

SAcademy: Well, who can?

AGplusone: A French 75 is a boilermaker with champagne rather than beer.

AGplusone: And brandy rather than any old hooch.

SAcademy: But, at sea, you are constantly balancing against the movement of the ship.

SAcademy: BRB

DJedPar: Beer and Grenadine. A Bird of Paradise.

AGplusone: I have never even seriously thought of drinking aboard a ship. Most of my time at sea was bravely

AGplusone: pretending I was totally unaffected.

DJedPar: Yeah, Right.

AGplusone: and in a troop ship, staying as far as I could for as long as I could away from the ‘heads’

DJedPar: Couldn’t pee over the yardarm?

AGplusone: Going over to Germany we found the brig unlocked and totally unoccupied. We spent most of the voyage

AGplusone: there, hiding from KP details.

AGplusone: It had a separate head. Nice and clean and unoccupied.

AGplusone: Up in the bow.

DenvToday: I admire your initiative.

SAcademy: Lots of motion in the bow.

AGplusone: I was always the ‘backdoor’ type.

AGplusone: If it’s not forbidden, it’s permitted

KultsiKN: Uh-huh. Gives you a nice up-and-down motion. Right, David?

AGplusone: It didn’t smell.

AGplusone: And sergeants didn’t come around with things to keep you busy.

AGplusone: Mostly I estivated.

AGplusone: I was well-rested when we pulled into Bremen

DenvToday: That’s what I do most weekends.

SAcademy: Did you get seasick?

AGplusone: Not if I can help it.

AGplusone: Actually, never, but it’s been close a couple of times. Smell will get me going.

SAcademy: I did twice. Once at the Antarctic Convergence, and again my first day on a ground swell.

AGplusone: Which is why (sorta) I tried hard to stay off KP and away from the heads in the stern that we were

DenvToday: We could do an entire discussion just on the spacesick scenes from the juveniles.

AGplusone: ordered to use. They were slops.

AGplusone: I’m also very lazy and KP is hard work.

DenvToday: No more KP in the military. They hire outside private firms for that now.

SAcademy: Scrubbing out pots?

DJedPar: Really?

AGplusone: too bad … pots and pans are a good job. Cooks don’t harass you. Cleaning a grease trap, OTOH, can

DenvToday: Yes, they hire food services now.

SAcademy: Sure, now that they have cleaning compounds that do all the work?

AGplusone: adjust a recruit’s attitude pretty good.

DJedPar: That’s wretched excess.

AGplusone: peeling potatoes is easy work. those grease traps are hell!

AGplusone: You sometimes find dead rats in ’em

DenvToday: Shhhh…keep that to yourself. Everybody will want one.

AGplusone: ‘kay :-)

SAcademy: I used to spend my mornings getting dead gophers out of the pool

DenvToday: Do they sell gopher nets?

SAcademy: I think those are rodents, too.

AGplusone: Going to the comissary is fun, on KP, because you steal everything not nailed down and take it back to

AGplusone: the barracks.

SAcademy: Darn beasts were always drowning in th pool.

DenvToday: Too bad chinchillas weren’t attracted to the pool. You could have had a coat eventually.

AGplusone: Privates are different from you and me.

SAcademy: do have a leopaard coat. Useless in Florida.

AGplusone: … but not much.

AGplusone: That’s one thing I enjoyed in Trooper. Juan Rico talking about how everyone stole something and stash

AGplusone: ed it for the long marches. So true.

DenvToday: Fur coats are making a resurgence. Take that, PETA!

DenvToday: Dave, if you’re in the military, it’s not stealing. It’s alternative usage.

SAcademy: I wore it in NY during the worst of the PETA thing.

AGplusone: It’s scrounging.

DJedPar: Every girl and boy in Quebec has a fur coat.

DenvToday: Good for you!

AGplusone: Every unit has to have a ‘scrounger’ essential to the continued existence of the unit.

DenvToday: Did any of the PETA types menace you?

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi again

DenvToday: Hello Jane

DJedPar: No. Never.

AGplusone: You trade what you steal for stuff the other guy stole … commerce!

ddavitt: Just popping in for a bit before L’s bedtime

ddavitt: Where are we at?

SAcademy: No they didn’t bother me. I withered them with a glance.

DJedPar: Hi Jane.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane. Lots of compliments on your reply post.

SAcademy: Hello again Jane.

DenvToday: lol I’m sure you did.

ddavitt: ? Oh, the Tennyson one?

DenvToday: I wish I’d been there!

ddavitt: Yes, lots of that poem seemed to fit when I looked at it

AGplusone: We once traded an extra D9 caterpillar that came into our hands.

ddavitt: It was only dashed off tho; might be fun to do a closer look

DenvToday: Whenver I go on a diet, I quote Ulysses. “Though much is taken, much abides.”

AGplusone: It would be a nice article to write … hint, hint …

SAcademy: A classmate of R’s had a bucket during WWII, and he had to steal all his batteries etc. He had a real

SAcademy: y well armed ship.

ddavitt: You write it then David; I’d like to read it

AGplusone: Any clue to another book, classic, that has an “irregular” lady in the title?

ddavitt: Fanny or Moll?

DenvToday: Jane Eyre?

AGplusone: I get very suspicious of RAH’s titles and everything else these days.

AGplusone: I thought that too … Eyre is an interesting thought.

ddavitt: Not suspicious; just see them as clues

AGplusone: layered writing is subject to some laughter, but in RAH’s case I’m sure it was deliberate, and fun to

AGplusone: decipher

SAcademy: Well, I supplied some of them. Puppet Masters, Cat, etc.

ddavitt: But can we pin point when he started to do that?

ddavitt: Was it hard Ginny?

ddavitt: I can never think of names for things

DenvToday: I’ve been trying for years to find Torne, Hernia, Lien & Snob in the yellow pages.

DenvToday: No luck so far.

ddavitt: ^lt;g>

SAcademy: Aalways. He’d change them around usually, and then the editor had other ideas.

AGplusone: Hard to say: remember VonRheinschmidt in LifeLine

ddavitt: True..sort of Tuckerism?

AGplusone: sorta … a parody tho

ddavitt: (Can’t you tell I’ve read the latest Journal?)

AGplusone: not intended a compliment by any means

ddavitt: Tho i had heard that term before

ddavitt: Nice how maureen and Ira got to meet maureen

AGplusone: wonder what the real ‘academics’ call it?

ddavitt: Twain I mean

ddavitt: And he wrote something for her

ddavitt: That should be in the Invisible Library

AGplusone: One of the most wonderful passages in RAH. I was amazed.

AGplusone: And delighted.

AGplusone: Was Hal Holbrook kicking around by 1987?

AGplusone: Doing Twain then?

DenvToday: He’s been doing it for 40 years.

AGplusone: Good.

ddavitt: Yes..he did a piece on redheads and cats for her…I’d love to read that…

DenvToday: He was in his twenties when he started. He’s written that he needs less makeup as the years…

DenvToday: …go by.

AGplusone: lol, so true

ddavitt: In one of those parrallel universe libraries of course

AGplusone: Old Useless was described as red-haired, wasn’t he?

DenvToday: Did RAH ever see Holbrook do Twain?

ddavitt: I wonder if the lecture they attended by Twain is documented? 1898 so Heinlein couldn’t have gone but

ddavitt: maybe his parents did?

AGplusone: And do you understand the word “fox” as applied to a woman, in American slang, Jane?

ddavitt: Yes.

ddavitt: Smart, sexy

SAcademy: Robert didn’t see it, but I did down in St. Augustine.

AGplusone: as in ‘stone fox’ …. current in 87

DenvToday: I saw it when I was a student. I thougt it was wonderful.

AGplusone: saw one of the TV portrayals

ddavitt: I don’t know who Holbrook is?

AGplusone: never in person

DenvToday: He’s an American actor, most famous for his “Mark Twain Tonight!” one-man show.

DJedPar: He looks like Mulroney of Canada.

AGplusone: Hal Holbrook is an american actor who give several one man shows portraying MT

ddavitt: Thanks.

AGplusone: gave … they were acclaimed

DenvToday: You might recognize him if you saw him, Jane. He’s been in loads of American movies.

ddavitt: could be

AGplusone: trying to think of one ….

DenvToday: Capricorn One

DJedPar: Sort of an older Jim Carey

ddavitt: I will do a search..bound to be a photo online

DenvToday: Yes, probably.

AGplusone: No, he’s much more serious than Carey … almost a character of quality actor. Not primarily a comedia

AGplusone: n

DJedPar: I agree. But good at imitation.

AGplusone: yes

AGplusone: far, far wider range

AGplusone: could do Thomas More, for example, well

KultsiKN: All the President’s Men

AGplusone: Yes, that was one that showed his range

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: i have found a page..did lots of films

KultsiKN: First, “The Group” (1966)

AGplusone: Hi, Bill …

BPRAL22169: Yo, all

ddavitt: magnum Force being one

ddavitt: Hi again Bill

DJedPar: Hey, Bill!

BPRAL22169: If we are casting To Sail again, I’m leaving! Yo Denis.

ddavitt: Before that in a TV series

DenvToday: He was in The Firm I remember.

BPRAL22169: Around and around the revolving door.

DenvToday: Midway, another of his films.

ddavitt: Not a casting thread Bil

ddavitt: You can relax

DenvToday: Greetings Bill.

BPRAL22169: *whew!*

BPRAL22169: Yo, Denv.

DJedPar: No, we’re doing Twain.

KultsiKN: Did more than 2000 MT shows…

ddavitt: I have found a photo

BPRAL22169: OK — when we got to casting Wesley Snipes as Lazarus Long, I knew we had lost it!

KultsiKN: URL?

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: He looks vaguely familiar and a lot like twain

ddavitt: One of those really long ones; not sure I can cut and paste

AGplusone: We did get sorta goofy then, but I’m still proud of my inspiration of Alex Kingston!

AGplusone: ^lt;—-depositing another dime.

BPRAL22169: Alex Kingston would make a very good Maureen.

ddavitt: Won’t let me do it sorry

DJedPar: Ginny, do you think Mo is well picture on the To Sail cover?

AGplusone: I really like her. She is a tough, smart, beautiful, and sensitive lady.

ddavitt: She’s too young..not maternal enough IMO

SAcademy: Botticelli’s Spring

ddavitt: She’s not Mama Maureen there

AGplusone: Wait til next season. She’s PG on ER.

DJedPar: Yes, looks like Mo to me.

KultsiKN: I found a photo as well.

ddavitt: Lovely picture ..but not her.

DJedPar: What inspired Boris to do it?

ddavitt: That is not the tummy of a woman who has given birth many times…

SAcademy: I think that I have some large posters of it here.

AGplusone: lots of exercise.

ddavitt: ^lt;Jane turns a pale shade of green>

AGplusone: Ask Mo

ddavitt: The exercises she does affect a slightly different body part:-)

BPRAL22169: Vallejo usually reproduces a model exactly.

BPRAL22169: including himself, of course.

AGplusone: well, I’m a model of propriety and wasn’t going to mention that ….

ddavitt: You’re raising hopes here amongst the lads, Bill

DJedPar: Jane, the tummy doesn’t go in all pregnancies.

SAcademy: If you will look it up, yo will find it’s exactly Bottlcelli’s Apring.

ddavitt: No, mine is still there

ddavitt: Just rather too much of it

BPRAL22169: “Primavera” it is often titled — the Italian for “Spring”

AGplusone: Did anyone ever get the copy of Freas portrait of RAH, btw?

ddavitt: I don’t have stretch marks tho so i can’t complain. Few million sit ups and it’sll be just like that p

ddavitt: icture

SAcademy: Thaat’s the one.

AGplusone: I could use a few million situps

SAcademy: I have never seen the Freas portrait of Robert.

DenvToday: Neither have I.

DJedPar: A Freas portrait of Robert? Where Ginny?

DenvToday: The early photos of RAH–very movie star.

BPRAL22169: You will be happy to know Lawrence Ferlinghetti drew a portrait of R from a photo

AGplusone: I like them.

BPRAL22169: Rita had lying around.

SAcademy: I don’t know, Denis,. I haven’t seen it.

AGplusone: the movie star ones … he reminds me of how my dad dressed in the fifties or forties

AGplusone: That was stylish then

DJedPar: You still have the Freas painting that Robert gave you?

AGplusone: almost like turtlenecks were in the 60s

BPRAL22169: I think those photos were taken in about 1940. ISTR the photographer was Bill Corson.

DenvToday: Are you saying there was a time when adults dressed like adults? No….

SAcademy: There are a jillion lousy pictures of R. on line,

AGplusone: Aren’t there?

DenvToday: There’s one in particular that reminds me of a young Laurence Olivier.

ddavitt: I found a picture of B’s Birth of Venus which is v similar but it will not let me post an url

AGplusone: The ones I like the best were the ones taken in the 40s and that one you took of him reading the book,

SAcademy: Some Swedish kid has done a bust of him. that is something I’d like to have.

AGplusone: looking down at it.

ddavitt: Has the same hair wrapping round the body and the shell

AGplusone: I have a downloaded copy of one of the Bot version of Venus

BPRAL22169: I thought Whelan was doing the Birth of Venus — because of the clamshell she’s standing on.

SAcademy: I call that cover picture Venus on the half shell.

ddavitt: With cat on the side

AGplusone: LazLor1 pointed me to it. The same lady who found all the what’zname paintings.

DJedPar: Oh, Ginny. I love that picture!

maikoshT: Hi Folks. Just got back and caught up on the log.

DenvToday: Which brings us back to beer. Nothing better than Dos Equis and oysters on the half shell.

ddavitt: Why won’t it let me do URL’s?!

AGplusone: Elizabeth MacLean …

BPRAL22169: Kurt Vonnegut used that as a title in one or two of his books — then Ted Sturgeon wrote it

SAcademy: Men would

AGplusone: put a space between the URL Jane

AGplusone: it will go then.

AGplusone: not as a hyperlink but as text

ddavitt: space where?

SAcademy: Me, I like the Friday cover JudyLynn had done for Friday

AGplusone: anywhere in the middle to tell AIM it’s not a hyperlink…

DJedPar: I love that one too.

ddavitt: http://www.atmos.washington. edu/~pgoodman/birth_venus.jpg

BPRAL22169: Another Whelan, I think — I liked it better than TSBTS

AGplusone: That did it.

ddavitt: But how can you use it now?

DenvToday: Yes, I love that cover.

BPRAL22169: Select, copy, paste into the “Go To” box of your browser.

DJedPar: The Friday cover is very cool. The French used it for their version.

maikoshT: cut and paste into your browser

BPRAL22169: Take out the space.

ddavitt: OK, well that’s a nice one of the Venus

SAcademy: The Germans used the Friday one, too.

ddavitt: And she has a more realistic tum

AGplusone: Yep. that’s it.

BPRAL22169: Did they title theirs “Freitag”?

DJedPar: Yes.

ddavitt: I like the Friday i have where she is leaning against the jump car

BPRAL22169: Figures.

ddavitt: And a cat is at her feet.

ddavitt: She is in a superskin suit.

AGplusone: downloaded

BPRAL22169: That’s a very interesting book, especially when compared to To Sail.

ddavitt: Did Heinlein predict Lycra there I wonder?

AGplusone: Just as flawed and as human as good old reprehensible Hugh

DJedPar: Friday was post-lycra.

ddavitt: Dime in the box!

AGplusone: not a chance

ddavitt: Really? trying to remember my first pair of leggings

ddavitt: I love the person who invented them…

AGplusone: girding loins for continuation of the Hugh wars ….

ddavitt: No, I won’t and you can’t make me!

SAcademy: Thunder in the distance.

AGplusone: Is that Jane and me, or real thunder?

ddavitt: We have rain threatening here

DJedPar: Thunder everywhere.

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: I’m happy.

DJedPar: 😀

ddavitt: But Hugh is off topic

AGplusone: Oh, OK

SAcademy: It’s reql all right.

SAcademy: real

ddavitt: can’t we bash Brian instead?

ddavitt: That’s always fun…

KultsiKN: 2×4?

AGplusone: I was thinking the other day what folk on the praire have to do … Brian had all the advantages …

AGplusone: perfectly sane wife … always supportive … nearly went wacky. 19th Century dream.

ddavitt: Sure Kultsi, that works

AGplusone: And he dumps her for a bimbo.

SAcademy: Kultsi, every time you do one of those things, I amamazed at your command of English.

ddavitt: Who can have babies…

ddavitt: Maureen didn’t blame him because of that fact.

DJedPar: Maureen was a sort of superwoman, ahead of her time.

maikoshT: I don’t think babies was the real reason.

BPRAL22169: Facts of a Howard’s life.

AGplusone: Naw, who flatters him by telling him he’s just as good in the sack as a twenty-year-old … and who is

AGplusone: rich, rich, rich.

KultsiKN: Aww, shucks… It jist takes a long time and lots of readin’

AGplusone: which is why he’s as good as a twenty-year-old

maikoshT: and who tried to be richer than he really was by gypping Maureen out of her portion

SAcademy: I assure you that R’s mother wasn’t a superwoman.

AGplusone: Poor Dickie, but then he never knew, did he?

maikoshT: But. everyone knows who the superwoman was in RAH’s life;-)

DJedPar: You bet.

BPRAL22169: Indeed

DenvToday: Yes indeed.

ddavitt: Was she alive for much of the time you were married Ginny?

AGplusone: Huh? 😉

SAcademy: Quite a bit of it, Jane.

BPRAL22169: Catch up, David.

BPRAL22169: I believe she died in 1976

AGplusone: My wife Andrea thinks she’s the superwoman just because I keep saying “yes, dear, of course, dear ….

AGplusone: it’s all a lie of course.

AGplusone: 35 years of misery now ^lt;veg>

BPRAL22169: This is a portrait of me Not Going There…

SAcademy: You’re a scondrel, David.

KultsiKN: David, I take it she’s not around.

BPRAL22169: Wave bye-bye.

AGplusone: Absolutely correct!

maikoshT: All of his family seem to have been pretty long lived.

BPRAL22169: I think the main characters in the last books are painted deliberately larger than life for

maikoshT: From what little I’ve heard

BPRAL22169: literary reasons — he’s assimilating the story to mythology.

AGplusone: but everyone say a lot of things now so it will scroll up so my daughter won’t see it. She’ll fink on

AGplusone: me.

AGplusone: And I’ll suffer for it.

ddavitt: demi gods

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Yes.

maikoshT: You should, you nasty man.

BPRAL22169: That whole incest bit really solidly points in that direction. Th gods are not bound my mortal

BPRAL22169: taboos

AGplusone: If you manage to get out here in April when Jani comes, you can meet her.

AGplusone: She’s much nicer and more interesting than I am.

ddavitt: after all, LL is immortal; a godly attribute

ddavitt: And has many other non human characteristics

AGplusone: And also sane

BPRAL22169: Good point.

KultsiKN: No, Jane, just not dead yet.

maikoshT: Just read Sheffield’s ‘The Ganymede Club’. Interesting contrast to RAH long-lifers.

ddavitt: That never really gets explained

AGplusone: I bought a Sheffield too I have to read before September

BPRAL22169: Jove assimilated to Odin.

BPRAL22169: Lots of pantheons in the Tertius Family.

ddavitt: and the names..Minerva

ddavitt: Athena

BPRAL22169: Specifically, she is Pallas Athena

KultsiKN: Pallas Athene

AGplusone: Hamy … from both mythology and Cabell

ddavitt: lapis lazuli is a stone but the Lorelei were from mythology weren’t they?

BPRAL22169: It’s actually an eta, which can be transliterated either way.

BPRAL22169: And ishtar is, you should pardon the extression, the Mother lode!

ddavitt: Heh

KultsiKN: Lorelei is a place — known from Goethe’s poem

BPRAL22169: Ishtar = Isis = Hastur = Astoreth (the female complement of Jahweh)

ddavitt: galahad..back to tennyson

AGplusone: If the Titans piled one atop another, and their decendants lived on a third, then it’s tertius, isn’t

AGplusone: it?

ddavitt: and the Round table

ddavitt: hamadryad

ddavitt: Gosh..more than you think….

BPRAL22169: So lots of mythological systems are contained in the Tertius family, by reference.

DenvToday: Yes, the Lorelei were from German mythology. Enchantresses I think.

AGplusone: yes, I can’t spell that. Hard to even say

ddavitt: Another project!

ddavitt: :-)

BPRAL22169: Wasn’t there a Lorelei Lee in a Poe poem?

maikoshT: On the Rhine, calling ships to their doom.

ddavitt: Sirens I think

KultsiKN: Yes, Denv.

ddavitt: LIke Odysseus

BPRAL22169: Sirens were Greek.

ddavitt: Similar thing; mermaids

BPRAL22169: Or amI thinking Annabel Lee?

AGplusone: Naw, just wives of Sicilian pirates trying to wreck the greeks by drawing them on the rocks

KultsiKN: Lorelei was sitting in the heights

ddavitt: They are in Tom Holt’s book, ‘Who’s Afraid of Beowulf?”

SAcademy: :-P>:o:-[:-D:-$>:o:-)

DenvToday: You’re thinking of Annabel Lee. Lorelei Lee was a Marilyn Monroe character.

DenvToday: Gentlemen Prefer Blondes

ddavitt: Whar sparked that Ginny?

DJedPar: Ginny!

BPRAL22169: There’s a library of emoticons!

SAcademy: Just having fun

DJedPar: Snowy hit the wrong key?

AGplusone: She ended up with a smile. Perfectly normal smile.

DenvToday: lol Woohoo!

BPRAL22169: What does the :-$ stand for?

ddavitt: You go girl…

AGplusone: My lips is sealed

KultsiKN: Bill Gates?

DenvToday: Lips surgery?

BPRAL22169: That’s it: collagen injections.

DJedPar: Good one, Denv

AGplusone: No, it’s put your money where you mouth is, says AOL

BPRAL22169: That’s a good one.

BPRAL22169: It’s PPOR on AFH

AGplusone: Really looks like someone been sucking on a lemon

ddavitt: I have to go now..night all.

AGplusone: Nite Jane

BPRAL22169: No – I’ve seen that one: it has an asterisk.

DenvToday: Bye Jane

DJedPar: Bye Jane

BPRAL22169: Good night.

maikoshT: Night Jane

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: ;-*

KultsiKN: Nite, Jane!

AGplusone: that?

SAcademy: Nite, Jane

BPRAL22169: :-*

BPRAL22169: Yes.

maikoshT: You really have to be fast when Jane is leaving :-)

KultsiKN: One fast lady…

BPRAL22169: We could all just simultaneously shout: GET OUT!

AGplusone: :-* kissy face …. we could take a pool on how many seconds next time

DenvToday: You’re reminding me of the last thing my ex told me.

AGplusone: I bet three seconds next time

BPRAL22169: )*(

DJedPar: What was that, Denv?

maikoshT: That looks like a star in someone’s navel to me.

BPRAL22169: Further Deponent Sayeth Not. But it was a guess at what Denv’s ex might have told him

BPRAL22169: as a parting shot.

DenvToday: It was “GET OUT!” lol

DenvToday: Not really, but close to it.

maikoshT: We have to keep it clean for the young’uns.

DJedPar: Ora pro nobis.

DenvToday: =-O Reminds me of one of those plastic blow up dolls.

AGplusone: [mmmph!]

DenvToday: Not that I’ve seen one.

KultsiKN: Young ‘uns? Oh! You mean Jane!

maikoshT: Translate David.

BPRAL22169: I t hink he has been muffled.

AGplusone: me, biting my tongue

maikoshT: Or are you limited to OE? O:-)

AGplusone: lol

BPRAL22169: :-|)|

AGplusone: ever read Gawayne?

BPRAL22169: Years and decades ago.

AGplusone: One of the most beautiful lyric passages in English …

AGplusone: ‘thus yearnes the yars in yisterdays mony ….

AGplusone: look for it

BPRAL22169: I have a favorite like that: Sidney Lanier’s “Marshes of Glynn”

BPRAL22169: “Glooms of the live-oak, beautiful-braided and woven.”

SAcademy: L, S. de Camp used to reel off a lot of that stuff in Middle English.

SAcademy: And Fritz Leiber used to recite Shakespeare by the ream.

AGplusone: Like to have heard him. Bet Anderson could do the same.

BPRAL22169: When you have to memorize “whann that Aprille with er shoures southe…” you might as

BPRAL22169: well get some use out of it.

AGplusone: that’s true

SAcademy: Not that I ever heard. Fritz’ father was a sShakespearean actor, and he had the same voice.

maikoshT: Other than some dirty russian limericks, The only poetry I memorized is the opening lines

AGplusone: Just thinking of all the norse stories that Poul wrote. Loved his Rolf Kraki

maikoshT: from Fausts meeting with Gretchen from Goethe

AGplusone: Hrolf Kraki

AGplusone: which is, of course, Hamlet

BPRAL22169: In grade school, I was required to memorize “The Highwayman” and can still reel it off by the yard

BPRAL22169: “And still of a winter’s night they say, when the wind is in the trees

BPRAL22169: And the moon is a ghostly galleon riding the purple trees

BPRAL22169: And the road is a ribbon of moonlight, looping the purple moor

BPRAL22169: The Highwayman comes riding —

SAcademy: And purple poetry

BPRAL22169: riding, riding, riding

maikoshT: Schoenes Fraulein, darf ich wagen , meinen Arm und Geleit ihr anszutragen?

BPRAL22169: Up to the old in door.

BPRAL22169: inn

maikoshT: Bin weder Fraulein, weder schoen, kann ungeleitet nach Hause gehen.

BPRAL22169: Novalis is my my line.

AGplusone: I’m whistling it, but I don’t know the words,

David

AGplusone: My daughter sang it tho

AGplusone: If that’s Shiller

maikoshT: well. for my money that opening in the Tale of the Adopted Daughter is very,very good

BPRAL22169: “Es war als ob der Himmel hat die Erde still gekussed…”

BPRAL22169: And that’s all that has stuck with me, I find.

DJedPar: Landlungenschnecken!

BPRAL22169: Whang in the gold!

BPRAL22169: Except I always suspected it was really “Schenken.”

maikoshT: I had a great time reading the German edition of ‘The Past Throught Tomorrow’.

DJedPar: No Schnecken. Escargots.

BPRAL22169: Ham and snails. Jum!

AGplusone: Wouldn’t be bad …

DJedPar: With sliced almonds.

BPRAL22169: There’s an Alsatian sauce made with ham and pickles…

SAcademy: How about some Finnish Kultsi?

KultsiKN: lol!

BPRAL22169: You know, they call a coiled pastry “schnecken,” too.

SAcademy: Please?

DJedPar: Makes sense.

BPRAL22169: breakfast sweetroll. We get it a lot in beverly Hills.

SAcademy: Denis is a linguist.

BPRAL22169: Lots of Sephardim.

KultsiKN: K!

KultsiKN: K!

KultsiKN: Mieleni minun tekevi,

DJedPar: Any snail dishes in Finland, Kultsi?

KultsiKN: Aivoni ajattelevi,

KultsiKN: Lähteäkö laulamahan,

BPRAL22169: International character set!

KultsiKN: Sanoja saattelemahan.

KultsiKN: Surely, international char.set

maikoshT: That’s a poem, right

SAcademy: Thank you, Kultsi

KultsiKN: the beginning lines of Kalevala, our national epos.

AGplusone: my next question. Who is it about?

SAcademy: I know about three words in Finnish, kissa, and I seem to have forgotten the other two.

BPRAL22169: I thought so — I don’t read Suomish, but the opening line reminds me of “mene mene, tekel

BPRAL22169: upharsin.”

KultsiKN: Ginny, you have an important one — that’s ‘cat’

BPRAL22169: Priorities.

SAcademy: Yes.

maikoshT: That’s all anyone needs to know in any language, besides Thanks

AGplusone: Ah … I’ll see if Bob recognizes it. I know he speaks at least one terran language. That may be it.

SAcademy: Knew that once. But I can’t remember.

KultsiKN: Kiitos!

SAcademy: Yes, Thank you.

AGplusone: Back to Kalevala, what is it about?

BPRAL22169: Finns.

AGplusone: d’oh

SAcademy: Where does that come from?

KultsiKN: Well — Finns. Singers of the Lore.

BPRAL22169: The Simpsons — Homer Simpson always says d’oh! when he does something boneheaded.

AGplusone: not dwarf blacksmiths making singing swords I suppose?

KultsiKN: Folk poetry — mostly Karelian poetry, collected and edited.

BPRAL22169: It’s an epic cycle, isn’t it — lots of legends.

KultsiKN: OH yes, David!

AGplusone: not really?

KultsiKN: Well, not quite. Tolkien WAS familiar with Kalevala, though.

BPRAL22169: I’ve only read a few of them — and heard Sibelius’ four legends of the Kalevala.

BPRAL22169: And the karelia suite, too, of course.

AGplusone: Did you get a copy of Poul Anderson’s Operation Luna?

KultsiKN: Yes. That’s music that really touches us.

BPRAL22169: And did’nt Emil Petaja write a couple of them as small books for Ace back in the 60’s?

BPRAL22169: Sibelius is one of my all time favorites — particularly the 3rd symphony.

BPRAL22169: “The Star Mill,” ISTR

KultsiKN: I think I’ve heard of those books.

KultsiKN: Never read, though.

BPRAL22169: Petaja was great friends with Hannes Bok

BPRAL22169: another Finn of note in SF

AGplusone: You’d find one character in Operation Luna interesting

AGplusone: Not counting the sword himself

AGplusone: and, of course, the red-haired lady

SAcademy: We Americans should learn more about Finland. It’s a lovely country. If I couldn’t live here, I’d li

KultsiKN: 😀 Of course.

SAcademy: ve there.

DJedPar: Let’s move.

SAcademy: Okay, when do we start?

BPRAL22169: Let’s club together for a snow plough and a set of floodlights, first.

AGplusone: we’ll room together next semester, Kultsi

DJedPar: Whenever. Kultsi will help with passports.

SAcademy: I do have Arctic gear.

BPRAL22169: So you do.

KultsiKN: Bill, it ain’t that bad.

DJedPar: We can visit the Lapps.

AGplusone: I’m really good at sitting by the fire. My wife is a Lapp.

SAcademy: I have.

DJedPar: Really?

AGplusone: mostly, the part of her that isn’t Filipino

BPRAL22169: Just a joke, Kultsi. Compared to California, everywhere needs snow ploughs and flood lights.

SAcademy: Yes.

KultsiKN: You are, definitely, all of you, most wellcome to come whenever you want.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, have you read Neal Stephenson’s latest book, Cryptonomicon?

AGplusone: They’re very proud of being lapps, the Foss clan.

SAcademy: I’ have been there four times.

DJedPar: The Lapps are a very noble people.

BPRAL22169: You came out of the Soviet union into Finland, didn’t you?

KultsiKN: I’ve spoken on the phone with one of Ginny’s friends here.

maikoshT: I’d like to visit Valaam Monstery there.

maikoshT: Monastics not Monsters

KultsiKN: There are no monsters in Valamo. 😀

AGplusone: Right … and Grendel never existed

AGplusone: nor his mother

AGplusone: Anyone besides myself enjoy the movie: The Thirteenth Warrior?

DJedPar: No.

AGplusone: See it?

DJedPar: Have the DVD

AGplusone: Ha!

DJedPar: Maybe I wasn’t in the mood.

KultsiKN: First, we were a part of Sweden, for about a millennium, then we were part of Russia for 110 years.

AGplusone: lovely trick the author played on us, didn’t he?

BPRAL22169: That’s what Russia thought, anyway. I understand the Finns had a different opinion at the time.

AGplusone: Beowulf from another direction.

KultsiKN: Yes, Bill. We were Finns.

BPRAL22169: Sisu

maikoshT: Does Sisu have a real meaning in Finnish?

KultsiKN: Right. Like a juniper: bend, don’t break.

BPRAL22169: I don’t think it could be translated — can it?

AGplusone: Is that what it means?

BPRAL22169: Like the Spanish word duende cannot be translated.

KultsiKN: Sisu is…

SAcademy: brave spirit.

SAcademy: I think.

KultsiKN: You have nothing — but sisu. With that you go against overwhelming odds: through the gray stone,

KultsiKN: if that’s what it takes.

SAcademy: Good for you, Kultsi.

BPRAL22169: We do have an equivalent in English. I just thought of it: The Right Stuff

AGplusone: punctillo … what does that mean?

KultsiKN: Thanks, Ginny.

maikoshT: An apt name for a ship of the People.

AGplusone: honor plus necessity?

AGplusone: probably spelled the Spanish word wrong … let me see if I can find it.

BPRAL22169: I always thought punctilio was scrupulous adherence to formalities — with an implication of dash.

BPRAL22169: There are a few languages with words like ‘sisu’ and ‘duende.’ The details always differ

AGplusone: it has something to do with a point of honor

BPRAL22169: because what they really mean is “that’s what we are!”

AGplusone: you have to abide by it

maikoshT: The mention of Hrolf Kraki above reminded me of that derogatory term in Citizen, a ‘fraki’.

AGplusone: if you have the honor

maikoshT: nobless oblige?

AGplusone: even unto the breach

AGplusone: even if the breach isn’t big enough

BPRAL22169: Neal Stephenson makes this point about sisu with some Finnish characters in WWII

KultsiKN: David, it’s not honor.

AGplusone: no, what then?

BPRAL22169: “mensch” is a similar word.

AGplusone: duty?

SAcademy: NO, Bill, it isn’t

KultsiKN: Or perhaps it is. Pride. Necessity.

BPRAL22169: “That’s what it means to be a Finn!”

maikoshT: Like John Dahlquist?

BPRAL22169: I thought he was a Swede.

BPRAL22169: But perhaps I’m being over-literal.

AGplusone: :-)

maikoshT: I was thinking of what he did, not who he was

AGplusone: sí, claro

SAcademy: Swedish and Finnish are the two languages they speak there.

KultsiKN: Yes

BPRAL22169: A Spaniard would say of someone “he/she has duende” or “is duende” if they see an example

BPRAL22169: that embodies the highest, best vision of what it means to be a Spaniard. It’s sayign “he is

BPRAL22169: Spain”

maikoshT: Kultsi. did a lot of Swedish and Russian actually get into Finnish?

SAcademy: Spaniards are quite different from Finns.

KultsiKN: And it’s pride, si?

BPRAL22169: Si.

BPRAL22169: It’s the same kind of word — embodiment of the spirit of a people.

AGplusone: We really need Korzypski in here now. the burden on some words is incredible.

KultsiKN: You got it, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Thanks.

SAcademy: Now you’re approaching it, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Sisu is what makes a Finn a Finn.

maikoshT: Then Dahlquist is not a good example, his is just personal heroism.

BPRAL22169: And not a Swede

BPRAL22169: Good distinction.

KultsiKN: Nom Dahlquist is a very good example.

KultsiKN: I.M. No, dahl…

KultsiKN: What needs to be done, is done.

maikoshT: But he didn’t do it out of any sense of national or cultural pride.

maikoshT: I don’t think

AGplusone: “fit”

KultsiKN: We are quite individual.

SAcademy: I will post a Finnish site on afh, if you like.

maikoshT: Great. I’d like to see that

BPRAL22169: That would be quite interesting.

BPRAL22169: A curiosity about the language — the only other language on earth Finnish is related to is . . .

BPRAL22169: Hungarian.

SAcademy: Okay I will do it tonight, if I don’t get caught by that storm approaching.

KultsiKN: Take the war: our soldiers are taught to fight alone, if need be.

AGplusone: How’s that Swedish site? Does he get any traffic?

maikoshT: An army of one :-)

BPRAL22169: Now there’s a nice little paradox.

KultsiKN: Also Estonian, some languages in Siberia and so on.

AGplusone: Oh, gawds

maikoshT: That’s a joke, Kultsi. a current ad about the army talks about being ‘An Army of One’

BPRAL22169: I see we have hit the witching hour.

KultsiKN: That’s just because you are finally getting there… 😉

AGplusone: I have no clue what Madison Avnue is trying to tell the recruits and can only conclude that Puzzle

AGplusone: Palace is smoking very skinny cigarettes.

SAcademy: Thank you ever so much, Kultsi

maikoshT: Looking back at the log, I see one answer to my question. Kuningas is King in Finnish

AGplusone: Thanks, yes.

maikoshT: from Swedish. Did you know that Knyaz in Russian comes from the same source?

AGplusone: Yes, ‘cynning”

BPRAL22169: I wonder if that’s a borrow work. Koenig in German.

AGplusone: Derivative

maikoshT: Koenig and Kunigas both derive from proto-german

BPRAL22169: Philology is endlessly fascinating.

AGplusone: My grandmother was born in Gdanzk

KultsiKN: We have several words that are very early Germanic loans

BPRAL22169: Yes, fromt he Greek Kunos!

BPRAL22169: Joke, joke! No rotten tomatoes.

AGplusone: that was my first unstated guess

KultsiKN: We have retained them almost in their unaltered forms.

maikoshT: David is very good at translating early languages O:-):-D

AGplusone: That’s cause david is very early and ancient

KultsiKN: Our word for beautiful is ‘kaunis’, the original word was ‘skauns’

BPRAL22169: schoen.

maikoshT: I knew a fellow in the army named ‘Kaunas’

KultsiKN: Yes, ‘ch’ as ‘k’

maikoshT: cognate to schoen?

KultsiKN: Kaunas is a city in Lithuania.

BPRAL22169: I think it’s pronounced sKon in Swaebisch

BPRAL22169: Kaunas City?

KultsiKN: could well be.

AGplusone: Ah, just north of Butler ….

maikoshT: Dialect Geography is also fascinating.

KultsiKN: Doh!

BPRAL22169: Yup

AGplusone: And now that we’ve come full circle

BPRAL22169: Yes, we do go ’round in circles, don’t we?

KultsiKN: The girl from downstairs was there last year.

AGplusone: I thank you all for putting up with me the past three hours

KultsiKN: In Lithuania.

AGplusone: and promise I’ll reform …

maikoshT: Anyone want to join in the pool on that promise? :-)

BPRAL22169: Well I’m going off to rest from my labors.

AGplusone: as soon as I find time how to figure out to do it

KultsiKN: As always, the pleasure’s been ours.

DJedPar: The cats tell me the chicken is ready to come out of the oven.

DJedPar: Bye all.

BPRAL22169: I get turkey tonight.

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: or as Midnight the Cat used to say …. Niiiiice!

BPRAL22169: Good night all. A pleasure.

maikoshT: Enjoyed it folks. Wish I could have been here the whole time.

DJedPar: Enjoy!

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DJedPar has left the room.

AGplusone: Got it all Dave?

maikoshT: Got it all twice.

AGplusone: Good night David

maikoshT: Night Chet.

AGplusone: and good night from NBC

KultsiKN: Bed for me, C ya, folks! Nite!

maikoshT: Nite Kultsi. How do you say that in Finnish

AGplusone: nite Kultsi … sleep well

KultsiKN: :-) Hyvää yötä!

maikoshT: Easy for you to say :-)

maikoshT: Same to you again

AGplusone: not very

KultsiKN has left the room.

maikoshT: Denv. Are you still here or have you gone to sleep?

AGplusone: time for me to nap … wife should be home soon

maikoshT: Talk to you later. Did you try sendine me that minutes etc?

AGplusone: two aspirins for three beers … that’s about right, isn’t it.

AGplusone: Not yet. Will do it tonight.

maikoshT: Thanks.

AGplusone: me gusta

maikoshT: Denv must have gone to supper or something.

maikoshT: That’s it

AGplusone: hope so … I’m hongry

maikoshT: Log officially closed at 8:10 P.M. EDT

maikoshT has left the room.

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 8-16-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Back to The Future (History)

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 8-16-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Back to The Future (History)

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Those people who read backwards may find themselves at a loss when their retrograde progress through the works of Robert Heinlein brings them to Requiem and The Man Who Sold The Moon. Where, they will ask themselves, are Maureen and Lazarus? Why do the mistress of George and the relief pilot of the Pioneer get no mention at all?

Confusing indeed….

We all know that To Sail Beyond The Sunset did more than upset those two stories..it takes a hefty swipe at TEFL as well, adding so many fresh perspectives and background detail that a reader could feel delighted….or betrayed….or just bewildered.

This chat I ‘d like to look at Sail, not so much for the book itself ( though we may wander into that) but for the way it impacts on the FH. Can we spot any points where what goes on in Sail contradicts what went before? Can we catch Heinlein out in an error? Does the inclusion of Lazarus and his mother in practically everything that happens echo Caleb Catlum whose family includes every notable person in the history of the US? Stover drew the comparison between this book and LL before Sail was written; it can only reinforce his theory.

If this topic runs dry we could also consider the world of Maureen, especially in the later years. It is not our universe but did Heinlein use it to point out in glaring technicolour the problems he saw with ’80’s American society? What problems did he highlight? Are they still present, are they better or worse, 14 years later?

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Ok, I have been reading Sail and TEFL side by side. Enlightening! Did you know that all the time Maureen was trying to trip Lazarus, Ira and Brian knew all about it and were helping her achieve her goal? Ira only after Brian had made it clear that he approved of course.

I admit to being puzzled by small differences in the dialogue though. Did Heinlein not want to bore readers by a straightforward cut and paste from TEFL? Or can we put it down to the fact that Sail is purely from Maureen’s POV and her memories are different? I can’t say it was author error because some of the conversation is word for word so Heinlein must have had a copy of TEFL to hand. I did start to make notes of all the differences but it was getting too long. Here is an example, seemingly trivial but capable of producing a little juice;

TEFL;

“After some uncountable eternity she whispered against his lips: “Theodore…take care of yourself. Come back to us.”

Sail;

“My tongue met his and I promised him wordlessly that whatever I had was his. “Theodore..take care of yourself. Come back to me.”

Me..us…one is more daring than the other for the time and it is fitting that the daring version is in the memoirs of that somewhat irregular lady. The biggest change of course is that in TEFL, we cut straight from Maureen and Lazarus sleeping together to a letter from him written in France. My, oh, my did we get shortchanged back in ’73! In Sail we learn that he makes love with Nancy the next morning and ends up in bed with both his parents later on that day, discussing in full his journey from the future and arbitrating a row about whether or not he should sleep with Carol. Busy leave…..

It’s also possible to catch Maureen out in a small lie; in TEFL when she slips into LL’s room to seduce him she tells him that it’s safe, “Father may suspect me…but that makes it _certain_ that he won’t check on me.”

In Sail we find out that she has told both Nancy and Ira of her plans, that Nancy is all set to take her place as she is pregnant too and therefore safe and that Ira stops her and tells Maureen to go to Lazarus instead. May suspect? He helped organize it!

The funniest thing is that Lazarus lies to his family ( by omission) in his letters home. [ Author’s note here ; I know that it wasn’t a lie exactly because Heinlein didn’t know he was going to write Sail but humor me, OK?] He gracefully glosses over the orgies and frank talks about futuristic medicine with Brian and Ira with the sedate sentence,

“I had long talks with Gramp, got better acquainted with all the others – especially Mama and Pop.”

Understatement of the twentieth century there.

However, this is all personal stuff; Lazarus impregnated no one, changed nothing vital. It is not until he gives away details about the future in Sail that he starts to impinge upon the FH itself.

At a special meeting of the Howard trustees, he tells them snippets of what must have seemed gobbledygook ( ” talking pictures. Television. Stereovision. Space travel. Atomic power. Lasers. Computers. Electronics of every sort. Mining on the Moon. Asteroid mining. Rolling roadways. Cryonics. Artificial manipulation of genetics. Personal body armor. Sunpower screens. Frozen foods. Hydroponics. Microwave cooking. Do any of you know D.D Harriman?”) which they treat with scepticism for the most part. More fools they and all that. Maureen is listening though…

The chapter ends with the news that he is MIA and so ends that part of Sail which affects TEFL.

This is getting long. I will stop here and come back with the next bit about how the Past through Tomorrow stories are affected…unless someone else wants to take over and or join in.

Jane

http://www.heinleinsociety.org
I have read a bit further on. One thing that puzzles me; Maureen can’t stop the destruction of the satellite and Charon. It is as if that is set in stone. Also, LL obviously has no qualms about sharing knowledge of the future with quite a few people. Yet Maureen does change some things; she convinces George to make Harriman Industries invest where they would not have and in so doing she indirectly facilitates the success of the rocket to the moon.

The problem here which takes a bit of the fun away, is that Heinlein could only do so much in Sail. It would not have been possible for Maureen to save the Charon; he had already written that they died. It is possible for her to be a behind the scenes and beneath the sheets advisor because it’s never written that she wasn’t.

Makes my head ache…

Jane

— http://www.heinleinsociety.org
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:56:24 GMT, Jane Davitt keyed:

>I have read a bit further on. One thing that puzzles me; Maureen can’t stop the
>destruction of the satellite and Charon. It is as if that is set in stone. Also,
>LL obviously has no qualms about sharing knowledge of the future with quite a
>few people. Yet Maureen does change some things; she convinces George to make
>Harriman Industries invest where they would not have and in so doing she
>indirectly facilitates the success of the rocket to the moon.
>The problem here which takes a bit of the fun away, is that Heinlein could only
>do so much in Sail. It would not have been possible for Maureen to save the
>Charon; he had already written that they died. It is possible for her to be a
>behind the scenes and beneath the sheets advisor because it’s never written that
>she wasn’t.
>Makes my head ache…
>
>Jane

Maureen didn’t change anything. She had already convinced George to do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon. From LL’s perspective.

There’s no such thing as a paradox……….

lazarus

I shave with Ockham’s Razor every morning.

“…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Stephen F. Roberts

“lazarus”wrote in message news:1g99ntko4j01cnucko6lhukpr6udghmssr@4ax.com…

>On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:56:24 GMT, Jane Davitt
>keyed:
>
(Jane’s message snipped)

>
>Maureen didn’t change anything. She had already convinced George to
>do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon. From LL’s
>perspective.
>
>There’s no such thing as a paradox……….

Until ‘The Cat Who Walked Through Walls’, Heinlein almost always, a notable exception being ‘Farnham’s Freehold’, presented time-travel as being of the ‘non-paradox’, immutable variety as far as I can tell. (See http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TimeTravelTheories.htm)

In ‘Cat’, OTOH, he definitely switched and went for the changeable variety with the ‘Circle of Ouroboros’ having as its main function changing the past. One of the things they changed was Colin’s past where he had experienced cannabalism to a quite different outcome. ‘The Number of the Beast’ possibly showed both varieties when you consider the events surrounding Maureen’s rescue versus the fact that the world of Zeb,Deety, Hilda and Jake was ‘erased’, that is to say, its present, and therefore its past, had been changed. This switch seems to me to be a plausible corollary with the notion of ‘World As Myth’ which was not present in his earlier works.

David Wright
lazarus wrote:

>
>Maureen didn’t change anything. She had already convinced George to
>do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon. From LL’s
>perspective.
>
>There’s no such thing as a paradox……….
>
>
> —
>
> lazarus
>
>

Well, yes. He seems to feel that if he does something, he did it, so there’s no harm in doing it. I’m not sure about this. It’s that loop thingummy, described in NOTB when they discuss the rescue of Libby.

Until Lazarus opened his mouth and told people about the future, he HADN”T told them. On his own personal timeline, it hadn’t happened yet so he could have kept quiet.He still had a choice. After all, he didn’t know he’d done it before he did it. Did he?

I feel a headache coming on still…

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Jane Davitt wrote:

>
>lazarus wrote:
>
>>
>> Maureen didn’t change anything. She had already convinced George to
>> do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon. From LL’s
>> perspective.
>>
>> There’s no such thing as a paradox……….
>>
>>
>> —
>>
>> lazarus
>>
>>
>
>Well, yes. He seems to feel that if he does something, he did it, so there’s no harm
>in doing it. I’m not sure about this. It’s that loop thingummy, described in NOTB
>when they discuss the rescue of Libby.
>Until Lazarus opened his mouth and told people about the future, he HADN”T told them.
>On his own personal timeline, it hadn’t happened yet so he could have kept quiet.He
>still had a choice. After all, he didn’t know he’d done it before he did it. Did he?
>
>I feel a headache coming on still…
>
>Jane
>

Shouldn’t be drinking from your own still.

Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing observed. And before you have still another headache, I’ll mention that it was largely Mr. Heinlein’s handling of “time travel” (which he does at least three different ways) that led me to observe this.


>^,,^< What bite through yonder thin dough bakes? It is the yeast, and julienne is the bun… http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/ “Dennis M. Hammes” wrote: > Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing
>observed.
>

Fortified by Aspro Clear, I’ll ask that this be explained a little further as it applies to this particular instance.

To me, Lazarus is an intruder, an illegal alien. He is there legitimately only as Woodie. The fact that he doesn’t remember Bronson as an adult before the trip means that it’s possible history was different before he went back. Or it could be a child’s faulty memory…but this is the child who can play chess at 4 and will grow up to be The Senior. I’d think he’d have pretty clear memories of Bronson myself….except that there was no Bronson at that point. The past to which LL returned was not the one in which he grew up. So, somewhere D.D got his ship off the ground without any financial backing from Maureen. ‘The Past through Tomorrow”…..interesting choice of title isn’t it? Maybe the FH can only exist in the past because of the intervention from the future..but it’s a different past.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:35:43 GMT, Jane Davittkeyed:

>”Dennis M. Hammes” wrote:
>
>> Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing
>>observed.
>>
>
>Fortified by Aspro Clear, I’ll ask that this be explained a little further as it applies
>to this particular instance.
>To me, Lazarus is an intruder, an illegal alien. He is there legitimately only as Woodie.
>The fact that he doesn’t remember Bronson as an adult before the trip means that it’s
>possible history was different before he went back. Or it could be a child’s faulty
>memory…but this is the child who can play chess at 4 and will grow up to be The Senior.
>I’d think he’d have pretty clear memories of Bronson myself….except that there was no
>Bronson at that point. The past to which LL returned was not the one in which he grew up.
>So, somewhere D.D got his ship off the ground without any financial backing from Maureen.
>’The Past through Tomorrow”…..interesting choice of title isn’t it? Maybe the FH can only
>exist in the past because of the intervention from the future..but it’s a different past.
>
>Jane

No, you’re viewing time wrong. The fact that he doesn’t remember Mr. Bronson is because he was 4 years old. I certainly don’t remember any of my parent’s adult friends from that age. It had all happened already, from his viewpoint in the future, but he hadn’t done it, from his personal viewpoint.

Dammit, now I’ve got that headache.

lazarus

I shave with Ockham’s Razor every morning.

“…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Stephen F. Roberts

Jane Davitt wrote:

>
>”Dennis M. Hammes” wrote:
>
>> Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing
>> observed.
>>
>
>Fortified by Aspro Clear, I’ll ask that this be explained a little further as it applies
>to this particular instance.
>To me, Lazarus is an intruder, an illegal alien. He is there legitimately only as Woodie.
>The fact that he doesn’t remember Bronson as an adult before the trip means that it’s
>possible history was different before he went back. Or it could be a child’s faulty
>memory…but this is the child who can play chess at 4 and will grow up to be The Senior.
>I’d think he’d have pretty clear memories of Bronson myself….except that there was no
>Bronson at that point. The past to which LL returned was not the one in which he grew up.
>So, somewhere D.D got his ship off the ground without any financial backing from Maureen.
>’The Past through Tomorrow”…..interesting choice of title isn’t it? Maybe the FH can only
>exist in the past because of the intervention from the future..but it’s a different past.
>
>Jane
>
>–
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Hm. /Given the book/, you are as omnipotent as the author. Woodie at five is not, and neither is Lazarus in trying to remember what a five-year-old simply did not pay attention to (permanent memory takes three stages, and each requires effortful attention even if the effort is partly or wholly reflexive).

What equations there are require that CPL Bronson “was there” all along, which says little about anyone’s percepts of him and /nothing/ necessarily about anyone’s remembering or otherwise recording him. /I/ played chess at four (beat my brother at five), and while I remember in “full” detail the ceiling over my crib at one, a floor sander at two, 16mm cartoons and Fr.B.’s cigars at three, analysing Stevenson (and Eulalie’s illustrations) at four, and my brother’s cat in a wall tent at five, the incidents indicate their own source of the required attention — and are good for about six minutes out of five years. I do /not/ remember any of Dad’s friends, even though it was their tent and they were up routinely. Hell, I barely remember Grandpa beyond a roofing job (at three, but I was on the other end of the roof and really remember only my goof in the nail line) and a story I can’t remember, despite that he lived with us for six years. Lazarus’ not remembering CPL Bronson 2000 years later isn’t even worth mention.

Lazarus made rather a point, himself and severally, that he was an illegal alien. Given time travel, it would go with the turf, and most time-travel stories make a point of it.

But time exists only as the distance between incident markers on memory RNA (hence, I renamed the Goddess of Memory “MyRNA”). That strand (actually a very-porous hologram) can be (is) travelled routinely, and if one wants to be really stupid he can even rewrite it at will, even rewriting only part of the hologram so that he has, simultaneously, two (or more) pasts.

BTW, we need clocks precisely because there’s nothing necessarily uniform about the granularity, even the production, of MyRNA, either along one’s own strand or with respect to anyone else’s. And clocks don’t “measure time,” they /move/ at a uniform (and reproducible) rate past equally-spaced marks, producing uniform /incidents/ with which one can calibrate MyRNA. Those incidents are external; time isn’t. Trouble with the language (and the observation) of “time” is that /everybody/ sees “time” when he looks “out there” (or for that matter “in here,” which should have been a clue), so the temptation to /agree/ that it’s as “out there” as “blue” appears to be “out there” occupies the universe of the sample.

If time were an external, such that it could be traversed as in time-travel stories, it would be a continuum and infinitesimally divisible, and the necessary replication of event substance would render the universe infinitely dense. Indeed, the only reason our /perception/ of it is not infinitely dense is that the ordinate is granular.

Anyway, when someone sits to tell you how he was (or almost was) his own grandpaw, be prepared to hear a /story/, which itself has only internal (to the observer) existence. And as exercises in logical torture, they are, indeed, great exercises.


>^,,^<
What bite through yonder thin dough bakes?
It is the yeast, and julienne is the bun…
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

Saturday, August 18th we’ll continue chatting about “Back To the Future (History)” or maybe, forgive me, “Herstory.”

I got to thinking about the title: To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

Aside from an obvious theme of resurrection of Maureen, the photo of Venus borne on the cover, why?

Long quotation coming up here …

ULYSSES, Alfred Lord Tennyson

“It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match’d with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.

“I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoy’d
Greatly, have suffer’d greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro’ scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honour’d of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.

“I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro’
Gleams that untravell’d world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
As tho’ to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

“This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle–
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro’ soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

“There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
There gloom the dark broad seas. My mariners,
Souls that have toil’d, and wrought, and thought with me–
That ever with a frolic welcome took
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
Free hearts, free foreheads–you and I are old;
Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
’Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. ”

Uh-huh … nice sentiment. Who’s speaking? The old red-haired fox himself.

Why is Maureen the first person narrator? Forgive me, but isn’t she “the old red-haired fox” herself?

I think I’d like to plan around with this silly notion for perhaps the first hour Saturday. Why, exactly, did Heinlein pick such a title out of such a poem about such a magnificent character? Are there many marked similarities between the two? If so, why?

a little fun, perhaps, about where RAH may have been headed in the “World As Myth” had it continued …


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: That’s a terrible translation I faked, David.

DavidWrightSr: No!. it looked good to me

AGplusone: glossed over too much I didn’t know for sure …

AGplusone: but it was fun to try!

DavidWrightSr: Well. I really started to get interested. I’ve been searching for OE & ME sites all afternoon.

AGplusone: One of the better read passages in the Chronicles … I used to have an Everyman’s edition of the

AGplusone: Chronicle that has most of the major versions translated. Bought it because I was looking for a

AGplusone: version of the Chronicle that a professor told me about ….

AGplusone: same year, it ends with … “and now Our King Harold is turning to the South where we hear that

AGplusone: William the Bastard of Normany is assembling a mighty host and plans to invade. …

AGplusone: All things pass, so to will this … ” which is how that version ended every year.

AGplusone: There was no entry to the year 1067. That version just ends there. Splat.

AGplusone: so too will this …

DavidWrightSr: I kind of got carried away with the whole thread, but I had forgotten how much I enjoyed..

AGplusone: The Everyman’s edition didn’t have that version!!! “Wasted” the money.

AGplusone: I enjoyed it a lot. Always did enjoy reading middle english and anglo-saxon.

DavidWrightSr: working with that stuff. I had a Master’s in Linguistics, but went straight into computers and never

DavidWrightSr: used it.

AGplusone: Went straight into law. Never used it except for enjoyment either.

AGplusone: You had dinner yet?

DavidWrightSr: Yes. we went out and got back in about an hour ago. Go ahead and take a break if you haven’ eaten

DavidWrightSr: yet

AGplusone: I will … thanks …. set up my little tea pot et co.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll be here.

AGplusone: I usually eat afterwards since my wife doesn’t get home until around 6 or 7 here.

AGplusone: But I sometimes need the tea to keep from getting grumpy. Enjoying Crais’ book I got Monday. More

AGplusone: on him later.

DavidWrightSr: I was surprised when I read that site on early space tv shows how much more depth there was…

DavidWrightSr: to them than I remembered. But then I was only 10-11 at the time and not very observant.

DavidWrightSr: What am I saying, I’m 61 and still not very observant.

AGplusone: Great site, isn’t it? I saw it once before. I could hardly distinguish between the three …

AGplusone: when I was six or whatever it was when they were on.

DavidWrightSr: The reason I said that Captain Video was so bad was those dumb cowboy movies they

AGplusone: We used to conflate the programs. My sister and I called the lead character “Buzz Corkbutt” later on .

DavidWrightSr: had to put in there. Didn’ realize until today that that was the main reason for the

DavidWrightSr: show in the first place.

AGplusone: Our memories of them were pretty vague by the time we started using terms like ” -butt”

DavidWrightSr: As I said, I actually dropped most of them after I starting reading books. I only occasionally read

AGplusone: So I don’t thing we saw a great number of them. Didn’t have a regular TV until about 53

DavidWrightSr: sorry, watched one for years afterwards and then only for fun.

AGplusone: We had TV hours rationed to about one each night.

AGplusone: Early on … go read, David. TV

AGplusone: ‘is over.

DavidWrightSr: We were the first in the neighborhood to get a tv and I was *real* popular for about 6 months.

AGplusone: I remember the family name, Evans, who got the first in our neighborhood.

AGplusone: All the kids used to show up the hour before dinner to watch it with the Evans boys.

AGplusone: About ’50 or ’51

DavidWrightSr: It was a 5 inch motorola. Dad watched it once and took it back and got a *big* 9 inch Philco

AGplusone: Yeah!

AGplusone: Aunt Bess and Uncle Earl had a “big” 8 inch too. With a plastic green screen over it to “save the eyes

AGplusone: ”

DavidWrightSr: The first show I ever watched was a Laurel and Hardy movie. “Out West” or something

DavidWrightSr: like that

AGplusone: My “rich” Aunt Tillie and her husband had a 5 inch about ’48. First program I ever saw was photos of

AGplusone: a P-80 Shooting Star flying back and forth. That was it. Went on for an hour or more.

DavidWrightSr: Well, that is better than sitting there watching that Indian on the test pattern :-)

AGplusone: Yep, altho I liked the Indian!

DavidWrightSr: One thing I clearly remember was a show in 48 or 49 called the Merry Mutes.

DavidWrightSr: Starred a fellow named Dick Van Dyke

AGplusone: The 5 inch was in the middle of a huge wood floor cabinet, little tiny screen in the middle

DavidWrightSr: and another guy named Phil Erickson. Well Dick went on. Phil stayed in Atlanta

AGplusone: of this huge piece of furniture, with bigger knobs than the screen, nearly.

DavidWrightSr: and had a theatre club called ‘Wit’s End’. Great place for a date

AGplusone: Bet it was!

AGplusone: Do you remember a “Captain Jet”?

DavidWrightSr: They had a series of productions all name ‘Cleopatra or ….’. The one I rembmer

DavidWrightSr: was ‘Cleopatra or Nobody likes a smart asp’

DavidWrightSr: Don’t recall Captain Jet. wasn’t there something on the website about it?

AGplusone: Hollywood TV show version takeoff of Captain Video … They wore space helmets that had a square

AGplusone: bubble opening in the front.

AGplusone: Didn’t notice.

AGplusone: Wore accordian pleats at their joints on their uniform.

DavidWrightSr: Great picture of Captain Video and Ranger with their football helmets and telephone

DavidWrightSr: operators phone set.

AGplusone: Went to his show, filming one time. A real jerk in person. During commercials he’d come

AGplusone: out and shoot his ray gun, which spun little wheels at the crowd. If you caught one,

AGplusone: you’d get a prize.

AGplusone: Musta been about eight then.

DavidWrightSr: Our local show was a rip off of Howdy Doody called Woody Willow.

AGplusone: His real reason was to show cartoons.

AGplusone: Yes, rip off ….

AGplusone: and run commercials for the “vegematic” or whatever they peddled.

AGplusone: I remember “the Glass Knife” was their main seller.

DavidWrightSr: It’s funny. the guy who played ‘Officer Don’ on that show wound up as vice-president

DavidWrightSr: of WSB-TV. I saw him not too long ago doing a historic documentary.

DavidWrightSr: Ah Glass Knives. I recall a bunch of them at our state fair. used to sit and

DavidWrightSr: watch them cut up things.

AGplusone: We got the real Howdy Doody … do you remember Smilin’ Ed and Froggy the Gremlin?

AGplusone: and Willow the Cat?

AGplusone: ” …. Niiiiiiice!”

DavidWrightSr: We had Howdy too. Definitely remember Smiling Ed. Wasn’t he the guy that played

DavidWrightSr: Gene Autry’s sidekick in a couple of movies?

AGplusone: Autry had so many sidekicks I found it hard to keep track of ’em 😉

DavidWrightSr: No I think that’s wrong somehow

DavidWrightSr: Don’t recall Willow the Cat.

AGplusone: My mom, those years, used to put Autry into cabs on the Strip when he’d had too much

AGplusone: but she liked him. Thought he was a gentleman.

DavidWrightSr: How about that.

AGplusone: She worked a hotel cocktail lounge he liked.

DavidWrightSr: Well, he sure managed to parlay his movie days into a pretty big fortune.

AGplusone: He sure did!

AGplusone: He never got nasty when he drank. Just drunk.

DavidWrightSr: We got a record of him singing ‘Rudolph’ and my boys asked ‘What’s a Gene Autry’?

AGplusone: Poor kids.

AGplusone: We had a movie house on Hollywood Boulevard called “The Hitching Post,” that showed nuthin’

AGplusone: but cowboy movies, and cowboy serials, and cartoons … stop me if you’ve heard this before …

DavidWrightSr: GA

AGplusone: and they’d get real cowboy stars to come by during the Saturday matinees with their horses

AGplusone: and during intermission, autograph, or sing songs, or do rope tricks, or in Autry’s case

AGplusone: have Champion rear and do tricks.

AGplusone: Beautiful horse!!!!

DavidWrightSr: He was pretty good with a rope too wasn’t he?

AGplusone: Everyone dressed up in their cowboy or cowgirl outfits and they’d require that we check our

AGplusone: cap pistols at the candy counter before they’d let us in the theatre. Yes, he was pretty good.

AGplusone: And ushers would be chasing kids who smuggled their hide-out guns into the show all through the first

AGplusone: cartoon ….

DavidWrightSr: The closest I ever came was seeing Hopalong Cassidy at a local Ice Cream

AGplusone: Moms used to drop us off about 10 AM and come back to get us, exhausted and ready for a nap, around 5

DavidWrightSr: Drive-in. Must have been 4-5 hundred people there.

AGplusone: four cartoons, three serials, and three features and an intermission watching the cowboy star, later.

DavidWrightSr: Our saturday morning theater never had any stars. what they did have was a

DavidWrightSr: 12 cent admission fee. My sister and Brother gave me a coin collectors book

DavidWrightSr: with a whole set of dimes and pennies for my birthday to use for the theater

DavidWrightSr: Must have been a year’s worth

AGplusone: Wow! All those movies. [Stars were easy in Hollywood! Just dial a studio and hire a horse trailer!]

AGplusone: You musta been in Heaven.

DavidWrightSr: I guess being in LA had some perks.

AGplusone: It did.

AGplusone: Before smog.

DavidWrightSr: I was there around 75 or 76 and one day the smog was so bad that we

DavidWrightSr: couldn’t see the hills on the other side of the roadway from where we were

DavidWrightSr: staying

AGplusone: Reason I wound up reading Heinlein that summer is the radios said: Moms, don’t let your kids run …

AGplusone: send them to the libraries.”

AGplusone: 1954

DavidWrightSr: Neat. I got my first taste in the 8th grade, fall of 53

AGplusone: Just between 6th and 7th grade for me.

AGplusone: Summer!

DavidWrightSr: Although I had been an SF fan for years starting with radio and then early tv

DavidWrightSr: but hadn’t encountered RAH until then

AGplusone: Never was … altho I remembered “Rocket Ship X-M” and “Destination Moon”

AGplusone: Didn’t matter to me that RAH wrote it. Just that Woody Woodpecker was in it. That was fun!

DavidWrightSr: Right. I wasn’t aware until a number of years later that he had been involved in it

AGplusone: And I understood what Woody explained. That was neat!

DavidWrightSr: And I certainly recognized it as being a definite cut above all of the others.

AGplusone: Mom and dad bought me a bunch of books about rockets, and Goddard after that movie.

AGplusone: And astronomy ….

AGplusone: I was about eight when DM came out.

AGplusone: maybe seven

DavidWrightSr: I’m not sure that I saw it when it first came out. I may have had to wait until

DavidWrightSr: it got to the local neighborhood theater. Don’t recall now

AGplusone: Saw it at a drive-in … there used to be ones that got the first runs when they came out.

ddavitt has entered the room.

AGplusone: Probably charged twice as much as the other drive-ins …..

ddavitt: Hi there

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane. David and I are reminiscing about the early days.

AGplusone: pretty sure I saw it first run, because I remember in third grade already knowing the order of

AGplusone: planets before they started teaching us them, from the books M & D got me after DM.

ddavitt: Tom Corbett and stuff?

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Hi, J

ddavitt: I have never read any..or the Tom Swift

ddavitt: Were they similar?

AGplusone: I read all the original swifties … the old school libraries I attended had them.

DavidWrightSr: Did you see the URL I posted. Go there and you can find out all about them :-)

ddavitt: Will do

AGplusone: Catholic school libraries never throw anything out.

ddavitt: I liked Hugh Walters

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

ddavitt: Similar series

ddavitt: Bright youngsters in space

DavidWrightSr: Sorry my other machine just bombed on me. Be right back

AGplusone: okay

ddavitt: Visit each planet in turn…

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

AGplusone: How old were you when you read the Walters’ novels, Jane?

ddavitt: 12 ish

DavidWrightSr: Dog gone. Just bombed right in the middle of a conversation.

ddavitt: I have one still

ddavitt: Journey to Jupiter I think

AGplusone: Sarah Hoyt is fun to read, isn’t she?

ddavitt: Quite collectable I beleive

ddavitt: Yes, is she new?

AGplusone: Yes.

ddavitt: Or an old poster I don’t know?

ddavitt: Nice to see fresh POV’s

AGplusone: She joined the HS this month. Came out of the blue. Just found us.

ddavitt: Really? Great!

AGplusone: I told her about afh and sff.net

ddavitt: Did Lord Clane join?

AGplusone: She’s coming to the dinner in Philly. Has a book of her own out.

AGplusone: Shakespeare in a fantasy novel.

DavidWrightSr: I wish I could be with you guys.

AGplusone: www.sarahahoyt.com

ddavitt: Joel davis is his real name

AGplusone: Be nice to see him, too.

ddavitt: The one who has just posted about Gifford’s ST theory

ddavitt: He said he was going to join up

AGplusone: Yes, he did now that you mention his real name. About a week ago.

DavidWrightSr: Is he a physics teacher, by any chance?

ddavitt: I’ll check out her book David

AGplusone: He works for an aerospace company

ddavitt: Works for Ball Aerospace

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: David knows the company

AGplusone: it’s pretty well known

ddavitt: His firm has had dealings with them

DavidWrightSr: That might be him. I knew a Joel Davis who was a Heinlein fan and who taught physics at the

DavidWrightSr: local college when I first moved here. He moved on elsewhere after that

ddavitt: Could be

AGplusone: His office is in Texas

ddavitt: Seems like a nice chap

DavidWrightSr: I’ll have to query him about that. Interesting

AGplusone: does

OscagneTX has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Oscagne. How goes it?

ddavitt: Hi!

OscagneTX: howdy

DavidWrightSr: Greetings Os

DJedPar has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Denis

AGplusone: Hi, Denis

ddavitt: That’s better; wondered where evryone was

ddavitt: Hi Denis

DJedPar: Hi all

DavidWrightSr: I was beginning to wonder too. Had an e-mail from Ginny earlier, but didn’t ask her about tonight

OscagneTX: Have we formally started yet? I just woke up and saw the announcement on afh.

DavidWrightSr: She’s usually on quite early when she is here.

AGplusone: How’s she, Dave …. she may be tired today.

ddavitt: Hope you’ve all read the required material for tonight:-)

AGplusone: Been a rough week.

ddavitt: Yes…

ddavitt: Lots of aggravations

DavidWrightSr: She said she was ok. She was asking me about my problems and how I was doing?

ddavitt: Are you any better?

DavidWrightSr: A lot better, although there are going to be some after effects for quite a while I’m told

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: When did Bill come in?

ddavitt: Oh, there you are

BPRAL22169: Just now. AIM is being wonky today.

ddavitt: Ah…

BPRAL22169: Woods.

DavidWrightSr: Hey that was neat. Bill left before he entered. Neat trick.

ddavitt: Just talking about this and that

ddavitt: Before launching into the chat

ddavitt: Hey; i rhyme

AGplusone: when that happens it usually means they’re having trouble. Why Bill Reich doesn’t show anymore.

BPRAL22169: I talked with Ginny earlier; she said she was fatigued and might go to bed early.

AGplusone: Something in his software is wonky.

OscagneTX: Just finished re-reading Stranger again today. My head is still sore from the exercise.

ddavitt: OK, we’ll miss her.

BPRAL22169: I’ve noticed there is considerable difference between the different versions.

BPRAL22169: Did you re-read stranger before or after Martian?

OscagneTX: Haven’t read Martian.

BPRAL22169: OK, then I won’t ask you what you thought about it.

ddavitt: Good move.

BPRAL22169: I thought so.

AGplusone: If I get a percent I’ll tell him Martian is well worth it, Bill

ddavitt: But you’ve all read Sail, yes?

OscagneTX: yup

AGplusone: If I don’t get a percent, I’ll tell him it’s excellent! Take you pick.

BPRAL22169: How about .000000000000001 percent?

AGplusone: your

ddavitt: It’s a good book and you should get it. Right after this chat.

AGplusone: We’ll negotiate ….

BPRAL22169: That way, if I sell a milliion copies, I will pay you one penny.

ddavitt: Is it available at Philcon, Bill?

BPRAL22169: Happily, I might add.

AGplusone: Yes, even English majors can do that math.

OscagneTX: I read all the Lazarus/Maureen books in reverse order. By accident.

ddavitt: Then you are the one my post on afh was aimed at..

OscagneTX: As I went further back questions kept getting answered.

ddavitt: Did you wonder where she was in Man Who Sold?

OscagneTX: It was like… paleontology or something.

BPRAL22169: I’m Sure Jim Gifford will have some copies at MilPhil.

ddavitt: Interesting analogy.

ddavitt: I’m sure he better

ddavitt: Piltdown man though, rather than real fossils

BPRAL22169: To Sail was like paleontology — or perhaps archaeology for the rest of us.

ddavitt: Was Heinlein cheating a bit?

ddavitt: Using Sail to add in bits, change things?

AGplusone: I thought is was different and more mature veiwpoint, revisited ….

ddavitt: Or just having fun?

OscagneTX: Hmm. I don’t think I’d call it cheating.

OscagneTX: I’d call it fleshing out.

ddavitt: Did it serve a purpose?

BPRAL22169: Given the World As Myth theory, I think he can justify any minor deviations from the first telling.

AGplusone: and the ladies’ unexpurgated view. Lady Chatterly meets Time Enuff … Woody was always a very

ddavitt: It was quite an eyeopener reading sail and TEFL side by side and matching the dates

AGplusone: inhibited boy.

ddavitt: Oh yes, very true

ddavitt: But to find that Brian and LL were in bed together with her..all glossed over in TEFL

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi, just talking about sail and TEFl

DenvToday: Greetings all

AGplusone: You don’t think Woody ever told Ira the whole truth, the complete truth, and nuthin’ but the truth?

BPRAL22169: Puts a slightly different spin on the incest motive.

ddavitt: So much extra detail

ddavitt: But LL lied to the people in the future too

ddavitt: Well, he did if yuo view it as a whole

BPRAL22169: “Truth” was a commodity to LL.

AGplusone: Too much fun to lie to your own biographer!!!

ddavitt: Of course, at the time of writing he didn’t..

ddavitt: that is what is so confusing

OscagneTX: Again, more fleshing out. Change of perspective. I’ll bet Ginny had lots of influence on Sail.

ddavitt: Heinlein went back and changed things; Black Hat to the end

BPRAL22169: Or scene changer?

DJedPar: I don’t think so.

DenvToday: Could anybody know what was truth or what was imagined after two millenia’s worth of memories?

AGplusone: Why not, Denis?

BPRAL22169: I’d like to take a look at To Sail in contrast to Friday.

ddavitt: Brian and Ira encouraged maureen to sleep with him, it wasn’t behind their backs

DJedPar: Because, She didn’t usually interfere with his writing.

ddavitt: majotr changes in perspective and character motivations

BPRAL22169: I think Denis meant Ginny might not have had special input into to Sail.

OscagneTX: Um… I don’t think we can use Lazarus’s dishonesty to excuse changes in the 1916-ish bits.

AGplusone: That’s how I read Denis, too.

DJedPar: Right, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Didn’t mean to step on yours.

OscagneTX: Because those parts were presented as direct narration, not story-telling to Ira or Minny.

BPRAL22169: A reconstructed record, I thought, of the recorder in his gut.

ddavitt: The letters?

ddavitt: In those he glosses over things

AGplusone: I thought that was more a transponder ….

OscagneTX: besides, it was shot out.

ddavitt: He says it will record belly rumbles

AGplusone: I’d think he’d edit his dictation anyway.

AGplusone: If he couldn’t he wouldn’t let them put it in him.

ddavitt: It gets chewed up by the bullet doesn’t it?

ddavitt: He didn’t know it was there

BPRAL22169: That wouldn’t necessarily damage 25th century tech. Well, the first part of the book

AGplusone: The transponder part … but he suspected it: remember when the doctor gives him

OscagneTX: I thought it was _direct_ narration. Like the Dora story. A “flashback”.

AGplusone: his physical, and says: must be fecal matter.

BPRAL22169: is presented as an artful reconstruction of the Eldest’s mumblings while in rehab.

ddavitt: They call it a finder

ddavitt: They locate his ‘death’ by seeing where it stops working

ddavitt: He suspects it is a recorder but may just be a locator

BPRAL22169: So they retrieve it seconds before it stops and replace it with a dummy to be shot out.

AGplusone: Eeeew

BPRAL22169: These people have recorded every slobber and drool of his for years by that time.

OscagneTX: wouldn’t buddy boy remember them doing that?

AGplusone: Wouldn’t buddy boy find out eventually and skin them for doing it?

BPRAL22169: Not necessarily to both.

AGplusone: with a finger nail file

ddavitt: Good motives..

AGplusone: or a dull stone

BPRAL22169: You’ve got to rememebre — the twins are LL.

ddavitt: Who else read sail first?

OscagneTX: me

ddavitt: I know you did….

DJedPar: No. I read it last.

AGplusone: That’s okay. “I brought you into this world. I can take you out” — Bill Cosby

ddavitt: I didn’t as by themn i was reading in publication order

AGplusone: I read ’em in order because I’m old.

OscagneTX: Anyway… if something is omitted in Time, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

ddavitt: Ditto from about Friday

DJedPar: Me too!

OscagneTX: Even in straight auto-biography lots of significant things get left out.

ddavitt: Point is that it wasn’t ommitted exactly

ddavitt: H from a distance added stuff to suit his own ideas

BPRAL22169: The point of the incest scene with the twins — they are all the same person.

ddavitt: So, why?

BPRAL22169: Anybody get twinges of hermeticism out of this?

ddavitt: Why did he want to make maureen the pivotal person in FH rather than harriman?

AGplusone: Isn’t incest. It’s mastrubation …

ddavitt: Tail munching snakes?

DavidWrightSr: Harriman’s story had already been told.

ddavitt: So had hers

AGplusone: I think Maureen gives you a more cynical, rounded, less public relations view.

ddavitt: In TEFL and in NOTB

BPRAL22169: Putting the eternal feminine back into history?

DavidWrightSr: Do you mean in TEFL?. That was really LL’s not hers.

AGplusone: The historical revisionist, satire thereof ….

ddavitt: Definitely; irregular lady indeed

OscagneTX: um… probably because he wanted to write another book, and this was a good gimick.

ddavitt: Get some of her thought sin TEFL here and there

BPRAL22169: It’s true — it’s a wild technical tour de force.

DavidWrightSr: what kind of sin is thought sin :-)

AGplusone: … wouldn’t it be a kick if RAH was parodying Panshin in To Sail …?

DJedPar: Never happen.

ddavitt: You said the P word; dime in the box

BPRAL22169: doubleplus ungood thoughtcrime!

AGplusone: Okay, sorry!

ddavitt: Forgiven.

AGplusone:

ddavitt: maybe instead, knowing that was what his brother was called influened LL’s choice of alias?

OscagneTX: Let me dig you out, Jane. Laz named himself after his sib when he went back…

ddavitt: GMTA

BPRAL22169: My buddy list has mysteriously disappeared — will someone invite dehede011 in?

ddavitt: Sure

Dehede011 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there.

AGplusone: Bronson always existed. He got into trouble and enlisted 2,000 years in the future under an assumed

AGplusone: name: Bronski

AGplusone: in the M.I>

Dehede011: Hi Y’all

ddavitt: Hmm..interesting theory david!

BPRAL22169: Somehow I tend to doubt that one.

ddavitt: Spoilsport.

BPRAL22169: Unless they are becoming the VMI — Very Mobile Marines (Not Virginia Military Institute)

AGplusone: and in the World AS Myth, we’re going to see a tie in with that line.

BPRAL22169: It certainly could happen.

ddavitt: Which brings me back; is it cheating?

ddavitt: Doe sit allow the author to be lazy?

ddavitt: Does it

ddavitt: tired fingers…

BPRAL22169: Somehow I don’t think so.

AGplusone: It’s not lazy to work out a possible way to tie them all together, all the worlds, all the lines.

OscagneTX: Its not cheating if its internally consistent. And splitting timelines lets EVERYTHING be consistent

AGplusone: It’s HARD!

ddavitt: But all can be resolved with a stroke of the pen

ddavitt: Or a swipe of the eraser

AGplusone: And a heck of an imagination.

BPRAL22169: Several strokes of the pen, actually.

ddavitt: poetic license

BPRAL22169: And a brain the size of a planet.

OscagneTX: I heard an Asimov fan sneer that Heinlein was stretching to make his stories fit together…

ddavitt: i hope Heinlein was less depressed than marvin

OscagneTX: “The same way Asimov’s did naturally.”

BPRAL22169: Oh, there’s irony for you.

DavidWrightSr:LL says: ‘When I read his name in the records, I didn’t know that he was my namesake…

OscagneTX: fauh.

DavidWrightSr: as I hadn’t picked my assumed name then.”

AGplusone: Why “fauh”?

BPRAL22169: The ‘g’ is not only silent — it’s invisible.

OscagneTX: That implication grates. That H was imitating A.

AGplusone: I understand completely.

ddavitt: Does he say that then David?

DavidWrightSr: Yes. when he is explaining to Maureen who and what he is.

AGplusone: How can Heinlein be imitating Asimov and be imitating Cabell and be imitating (who was it? Lewis?) all

ddavitt: Got it.

AGplusone: at once?

ddavitt: OK, i give in:-)

ddavitt: Asimov and Heinlein were so different as writers that that can’t be taken seriuosly

ddavitt: I like them both but for different reasons

DavidWrightSr: Me, too.

AGplusone: This is a combination of the “Future History” and Cabell’s link-up all at once. We don’t ‘need no

McKevin0 has entered the room.

AGplusone: stin*** A

ddavitt: Don’t know why so many people think they can’t like both

DJedPar: The difference is that Isaac love Isaac, Heinlein loved everybody.

DenvToday: Hello Kevin

ddavitt: Hi!

McKevin0: Hidy

AGplusone: Hi, Kevin ….

fgherman has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia

fgherman: Evening all

ddavitt: Isaac was eccentric but honest about his quirks

DenvToday: Evening

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

DJedPar: Yes.

AGplusone: open anyway

ddavitt: His autobiographies are fascinating

fgherman: I’m just glad he never touched me

ddavitt: literally?

AGplusone: he certainly had a lot to say about people …

fgherman: literally

OscagneTX: Was he contagious or something?

fgherman: Just a dirty old man

ddavitt: He was very frank about his odd affairs

BPRAL22169: Come, come now: he had much more to say about himself, with 3 autobiographies and a

BPRAL22169: posthumous collection of letters.

AGplusone: the business about Leslyn ‘putting her cigarettes out on plates.’ that would have annoyed my mother,

ddavitt: How did he find time for it all?

DenvToday: Didn’t he write a book called The Sensuous Dirty Old Man or something like that?

AGplusone: but she never would have published that as a portrait of a lady

ddavitt: So many books…

ddavitt: Yes, limericks I think

OscagneTX: “still likes pretty girls” “sit in his lap” he’ll tell you anything in the library.

BPRAL22169: He did nothing but write after about 1960

ddavitt: NOTB!

AGplusone: unless she hated the lady (and then she’d have thought twice about it).

ddavitt: He knew a lot about a lot…

ddavitt: His work on Shakespeare was a lot of fun to read

DenvToday: I agree Jane. Also his work on the Bible.

DavidWrightSr: Bill. What did you mean, “melds the paradox to the multiple timeline in AYZ”?

fgherman: He did give a great lecture – Joel and I heard him speak @ UConn

ddavitt: I haven’t seen that but I’ve heard of it.

BPRAL22169: Oh – AYZ is a paradox story — the ultimate paradox story. But at the end, he is sitting in

ddavitt: When did Bill say that?

BPRAL22169: a room watching the slogans of the Circle of Ouroboros come up on a screen.

DavidWrightSr: But there were no paradoxes in AYZ.

AGplusone: [let me send you a copy of the log Felicia … anyone else want one?]

ddavitt: You should know:-)

BPRAL22169: No — it’s all paradox, the “I’m my own grandpa” paradox

McKevin0: sure

BPRAL22169: “The exception that proves the rule.”

DavidWrightSr: I disagree. The paradox would have been if he had altered an event. that didn’t happen

AGplusone: need full email addresses

OscagneTX: I thought a paradox was a logical “impossibility”. Everything in AYZ was possible, internally.

DavidWrightSr: Right Os.

ddavitt: Shall we have a brief break to allow them to be mailed and folks to catch up?

BPRAL22169: I don’t think the term “paradox” is that rigid.

DavidWrightSr: McKevin. Do you want to be on the mailing list for notices.

ddavitt: OK, I declare recess for 5 mins or so…

McKevin0: sure – thanks

DenvToday:

McKevin0: Laphroaig break

fgherman: Time for another martini

ddavitt: Which generally means people just carry on chatting anyway …

BPRAL22169: But in any case it doesn’t matter — AYZ is a single-timeline; RAH linked it to World as Myth

BPRAL22169: The character of AYZ is an agent of the Circle of Ouroboros.

ddavitt: Heinlein readers and single malts…an unexplored area of research

ddavitt: He didn’t like it much himself I beleive?

BPRAL22169: Just the best of anything, that’s all…

ddavitt: Brandy drinker

AGplusone: afk for a beer …. it’s after 7 here.

ddavitt: Over the yardarm…

DavidWrightSr: But he changed nothing. Everything went according to the way it had.

BPRAL22169: “Paradox: a tenet contrary to received opinion; a statement that is seemingly contra-

BPRAL22169: dictory or opposed to commonsense and yet is perhaps true; a self-contradictory statement

ddavitt: “common sense’ is a null concept

DavidWrightSr: But the term vis a vis time travel has a different meaning, I think

McKevin0: thanks

DavidWrightSr: We’ll get back to it. I’ve got to break too BRB

OscagneTX: pah. the more optimistic stories I read the more pessimistic I become.

BPRAL22169: that apprently derives self-contradictory results from true premises (and I think that’s

DenvToday: Warm wine is a mull concept

BPRAL22169: the sense in which is it used in time travel stories)

Dehede011: OOPS, I have to go, see you folks, nite

OscagneTX: give me a minute to mull that over.

Dehede011 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: ; something with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

AGplusone: [ …. pop …. hiss ….. aw …..]

AGplusone: back

OscagneTX: front

OscagneTX: er…that should be..

ddavitt: We are heading into pun land

OscagneTX: FRONT!!

OscagneTX: /em looks around for a harem of secretaries.

ddavitt: Felicia and I are too busy in the pool to be front

ddavitt: What does that mean anyway?

ddavitt: Front and centre?

AGplusone: [wife who got home thirty minutes ago looks around for harem of secretaries … muttering]

ddavitt: Army command?

AGplusone: Yes.

DenvToday: What with unemployment insurance, social security, state and city employment taxes…I think they’d be

DenvToday: out of owrk.

BPRAL22169: No — Front Desk! Where the bellhops are supposed to be.

ddavitt: Really?

fgherman: BTW, Joel sends his regards to everyone.

AGplusone: Means drop out of your position in formation and march to right in front of the commander

ddavitt: Say hi from us.

BPRAL22169: I don’t know whether the usages are parallel or derived.

ddavitt: Dissension in the ranks on this one then.

AGplusone: Back at him. Wish you were coming to Philly …. he does know why we’re having din-din at Bookbinder’s

AGplusone: right?

BPRAL22169: But he was using it in the hotelier’s sense of front.

ddavitt: I can’t beleive that this has never come up before…

OscagneTX: I thought front and center originated as a stage term…

ddavitt: A THIRD possibility!

ddavitt: Gosh..

ddavitt: Not a newspaper term is it?

AGplusone: No, it’s a military command: Private Smith, front and center! Means an award coming, or someone’s goin

AGplusone: ta shoot him, possibly.

ddavitt: Oh, brb; lauren crying, david bath

OscagneTX: /me opens a widget. AHHHHH

DJedPar: Affront = means “in your face” french derivative

AGplusone: j/k

AGplusone: The command to send him back after you pin the ribbon or stripes on him is simply: Post!

McKevin0: what’s the command after you shoot him?

OscagneTX: I always wanted to get hands on a BTTT, then take my books with me. (not just heinleins)

AGplusone: Ready, aim, fire, of course.

BPRAL22169: And stay dead, dammit!”

OscagneTX: Show Belgarath the Belgariad and watch his face.

McKevin0: ready, fire, aim?

AGplusone: or Dismissed.

BPRAL22169: I see David is a belt and suspenders man.

McKevin0: “consider that a divorce?” – Oh, wrong story

DenvToday: What’s the command for the circular firing squad?

AGplusone: Actually, now that I think on it “Order Arms”

BPRAL22169: Shoot him, then execute him.

ddavitt: back

McKevin0: violent in here – better watch out

AGplusone: Thank goodness.

OscagneTX: that’d be a suicide mission, no?

BPRAL22169: David was just instructing us on the etiquette of shooting someone then having him executed.

OscagneTX: I reminded of the Life of Brian suicide squad.

ddavitt: I din’t know; i’m away for a second and war breaks out

McKevin0: with two kids, you should be used to that

BPRAL22169: It’s another gun thread, Jane.

ddavitt: True.

OscagneTX: breaks up? breaks in? breaks in.

BPRAL22169: What is it with you and gun threads.

ddavitt: Hadn’t better be; not on my watch

BPRAL22169: breaks out, I think.

ddavitt: I don’t know. I’m just a peaceful housewife

OscagneTX: I hate gun threads. You get those by bore-cleaning with sub-standard cloth.

fgherman: If it’s a gun thread, I should get Joel

BPRAL22169: Maureen Johnson said that, too.

ddavitt: So did hilda…

ddavitt: brb again

DenvToday: I can’t stand gun threads. It’s so difficult sewing with them.

BPRAL22169: Ah, she’s afk — the cats may play.

fgherman: and they smell like gunpowder

BPRAL22169: Yeah — the needles get tangled in the trigger guards.

OscagneTX: you’re making that up out of whole cloth.

AGplusone: LOL … thread in bore, Sergeant, give him two hours extra duty tonight.

McKevin0: I always need stiches after a gun thread

DenvToday: lol

fgherman: I’m always *in* stitches during a gun thread

OscagneTX: I’ve always thought they were bore-ing.

McKevin0: (just needling everyone)

DenvToday: We really ought to muzzle all the puns.

AGplusone: Doe, a needle pulling thread … er, Fred

AGplusone: Doe and Fred got married last year

DenvToday: It’s a breach of etiquette.

McKevin0: had a gun pun backfire on me once

DenvToday: Let’s all take stock, then refuse to pun.

OscagneTX: Somebody find Spyder and give him a drink so he’ll shut up.

BPRAL22169: I didn’t see a guitar case come into the room . . .

ddavitt: sorry; cats got in L’s room while D was feeding her

McKevin0: she’s a little L’cat?

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: Who won the fight for the food, L, or the cats?

ddavitt: Sometimes

OscagneTX: Does that make Pixel an M’cat?

ddavitt: cats were fighting under the cot and woke her up well and truly

fgherman: yuck

ddavitt: She is pulling at her ear:-(

ddavitt: Goig to be a bad night…again

fgherman: I don’t blame her

ddavitt: She wake sup every 2 hours in the night and has done for nearly 2 months. I’m a zombie

McKevin0: don’t you wish you had 17, like Maureen?

ddavitt: She was mad.

fgherman: Jane, Judy did that too.

ddavitt: But I know women like her

AGplusone: Back to Maureen … who would you believe: Maureen or Woody?

fgherman: This, too, shall pass

ddavitt: How did you stop her?

OscagneTX: Is that even a question? Maureen.

ddavitt: Tell me, tell me!

DenvToday: I would believe Maureen.

OscagneTX: Woody lies just for the sheer hell of itl.

ddavitt: She’s his mother

fgherman: Turned off the monitor and let her cry it out eventually

AGplusone: ” all things pass, so too will this ….” you did read the log, din’ ya, Felicia!

ddavitt: Might come to that

fgherman: Ear plugs help

ddavitt: If i can be sure she’s not poorly

fgherman: 😉

McKevin0: My favorite Bible verse – “It came to pass.” (i.e., not to stay)

ddavitt: She is 9 months and has 8 teeth; got them all at once which must hurt

ddavitt: So we have cut her some slack

AGplusone: give her a popsicle to chew on …

fgherman: Did you give her some Tylenol for the discomfort

ddavitt: But I am getting vert tired

McKevin0: You rub a little rum from a jigger on her gums, then you drink the rest

ddavitt: Yes and Doc$Kidz said Ibuprofen so i tried that too

ddavitt: Doc4Kidz I mean

fgherman: Bourbon or scotch rubbed on with a q-tip will numb some of that for here

ddavitt: Which did help a bit

AGplusone: [Italian families use brandy … hush, don’t tell my mother]

ddavitt: I have heard that…

OscagneTX: family legend is that when I started being a problem, I got a thimble of bourbon.

ddavitt: but the teeth are through now so no excuse

ddavitt: unless more are on the way..

McKevin0: wait until they start driving….

fgherman: It worked for me when my wisdom teeth came in

ddavitt: Sory…going off topic here.

ddavitt: Boring all the non parents

McKevin0: kids and TEFL are always on topic

fgherman: Now I just apply it internally

OscagneTX: I never did fetter myself by topic.

ddavitt: Good idea..i’ll get drunk and insensible

fgherman: “Topic? We don’t need no stinkin’ topic.”

OscagneTX: I have trouble believing “insensible”. “Drunk” maybe…

McKevin0: we need a topical solution to the teething problem

ddavitt: Insensible so i can’t hear the howls

AGplusone: ’tis the reason why the Irish don’t rule the world … just ask my grandmother, then duck!

DenvToday: I find that a thimble-full of bourbon cures most of my ills. I should mention that I own one of the

AGplusone: Back to Sail ….

DavidWrightSr: The paradox, as I understand it, in time travel deals with someone doing something

DavidWrightSr: which affects his own past to the point where he couldn’t have gone into the past

DenvToday: world’s few 8-oz thimbles.

ddavitt: Eventually she will sleep through..only a few more years to go

DavidWrightSr: to make the change, thus making the events contradictory.

DavidWrightSr: Actually, this doesn’t preclude the scenario where someone

DavidWrightSr: else might change a person’s past/future.

McKevin0: oops, I meand kids and TSBTS

ddavitt: Headache coming….

ddavitt: time travel is so hard to discuss

McKevin0: hard to do also

ddavitt: NOTB, deety says need a new vocab/language

ddavitt: To describe it

OscagneTX: time travel is not difficult. We’re doing it now. %^)

DavidWrightSr: Lazarus said that also

AGplusone: Makes you wonder how the world Maureen wakes up in came to pass …. the rejected minister who locked

AGplusone: her in the closet gains power … ?

ddavitt: She speculates it’s a weird one

McKevin0: I just want someone like LL to leave me some sealed envelopes with boom/bust info

ddavitt: And again caleb catlum time….with Santa carolita day

BPRAL22169: LL never did any such thing!

DenvToday: I would settle for a list of Super Bowl winners.

AGplusone: sneaks into her house one night, finds LL’s predictions, …

OscagneTX: I’d like to live with the other Longs. Don’t think I’d be invited, though.

McKevin0: OK, Ted B

BPRAL22169: Maureen wrote down what he told her.

ddavitt: Now it’s her daughter who’s the world heroine

AGplusone: and instead of raping her in revenge …. takes the letters.

McKevin0: details, detalis

ddavitt: But why did Ll feel he had to tell her?

ddavitt: Why did he think it was safe?

AGplusone: Is Santa Carolita mentioned in Catlum … I don’t understand because I’ve never read it, Jane.

BPRAL22169: Easy — it came out that way, didn’t it?

ddavitt: Nor have I :-)

BPRAL22169: I don’t remember a Santa Carolita in Caleb Catlum’s America. Where did the reference arise?

McKevin0: What is Catlum? – missed that

ddavitt: No, it’s her daughter’s birthday party; on that strange world it’s a national holiday

ddavitt: Isn’t the premise of caleb that all the big people in history are his family in disguise?

ddavitt: I haven’t read it; got that from Stover

BPRAL22169: Not all his family — just the redheaded immortals.

ddavitt: It’s a book, Caleb catlum’s America that is supposed to be an influence on the Long family

BPRAL22169: Vincent McHugh 1936 — RAH extremely fond of the book. Almost quotes it verbatim in TEFL

ddavitt: Well you see what I mean though?

AGplusone: Like the green eyed redheaded immortals in EE Smith ….

ddavitt: More of the same

ddavitt: Maureen’s daughter ‘s birthday is a national holiday, a saturnalia? Come on!

BPRAL22169: Planetary anyway.

AGplusone: probably a world holiday

ddavitt: Too much of a coincidence without BH’s

BPRAL22169: It’s carnival.

AGplusone: Man Travelled in Elephants too much

ddavitt: The whole of the book is to explain why maureen clamps down when she hears about it

AGplusone: :-)

BPRAL22169: Fat Tuesday kind of carnival, I mean.

ddavitt: If you reas it carefully. The whole flashback goes from there right till near the end

DenvToday: Dave, that story never fails to bring a tear to my eye. Along with Dora’s tale, it’s one of RAH’…

DenvToday: …most touching.

BPRAL22169: I agree.

AGplusone: The recording is nice too

AGplusone: much better than seeing a white bearded old man at the end

AGplusone: he’s got to take out his book and see whether you’ve been good or bad

ddavitt: ‘As I have explained in excessive detail”…24 chapters actually

AGplusone: ” … so be good, for goodness sakes.”

AGplusone: uh-huh

BPRAL22169: There is something quite 19th-century novel-like about that, isn’t there?

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

OscagneTX: I don’t think I trust old white-beard. He’s done some crummy things.

AGplusone: Letters from the Earth ….

ddavitt: Yes, they often start at the nd and work back

BPRAL22169: I was thinking George Meredith with that long subtitle.

ddavitt: Moll Flanders

ddavitt: A good role model

ddavitt: for Mo

AGplusone: Actress in ER who played her did a marvelous job

AGplusone: Kingston

DenvToday: Alex Kingston

ddavitt: The series a few years back/ lots of red hair?

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: BBC one?

AGplusone: yes, of course

BPRAL22169: She is exceptionally good, isn’t she?

ddavitt: I enjoyed that a lot

AGplusone: She could do Maureen!

ddavitt: She would be perfect

BPRAL22169: Yes, she could. I would believe her.

DenvToday: I’ve always pictured Maureen as a young Maureen O’Hara.

McKevin0: me too

ddavitt: The cover of Sail is pretty..but it’s not her

fgherman: Well, without real time-travel, all we’ve got is an old Maureen O’Hara

DenvToday: lol very true

McKevin0: who could play LL?

fgherman: Not that there’s anything wrong with that

DavidWrightSr: I’ve known two ‘Maureen’s, one actually named that

AGplusone:

DenvToday: Hmmmm….good question.

ddavitt:

OscagneTX: hm. A casting thread. We should -iron- it out.

DenvToday: Again, going back in time, Jason Robards Jr. about 40 years ago. We’d dye his hair.

McKevin0: this whole chat could unravel

DavidWrightSr: Puns should be a quarter in the box

DavidWrightSr: :-)

McKevin0: No Quarter for Punsters!

fgherman: Hugh jackman

AGplusone: someone sly and sneaky. Alan Richman

DenvToday: Rickman’s a great actor, but he’s getting on.

BPRAL22169: No — the lead for the first season of “Earth: Final Conflict.” kevin something or other.

AGplusone: true

ddavitt: My friend adores him..Rickman, because of his voice

AGplusone: but playing young is always possible

ddavitt: He is in the harry potter film as Snape

fgherman: I just plain adore Alan Rickman

BPRAL22169: He looks the part, but he doesn’t have the presence Alan Rickman has.

ddavitt: He is very talented

ddavitt: So mant different parts he’s played…

fgherman: Hugh Jackman played Logan in X-men

ddavitt: Dogma, Sense and Sensibility…Galaxy quest

ddavitt: Huge range

BPRAL22169: Wasn’t he in Strange Days, too?

AGplusone: David Caruso looked like he’d be good for it, years ago, especially when he played the Marine Lt in

fgherman: Die Hard, Truly, Madly, Deeply,

ddavitt: Don’t know that one.

DenvToday: I saw him in NY in Dangerous Liasons. He was terrific.

DavidWrightSr: He’s not my idea of LL though.

fgherman: nope that was Ralph Fiennes

ddavitt: Die hard yes. He’s a good villain

AGplusone: Indianapolis sinking movie, but he’s dissapated too much.

AGplusone: dissipated

DenvToday: Yes Felicia. Wonderful film. I’m one of the few males that like it. Hmmm…

ddavitt: Young Burt lancaster

fgherman: Jude Law

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, OT warning: This Way Lies Madness.

DavidWrightSr: A young Kirk Douglas

ddavitt: The Voice of Doom

fgherman: Michael Douglas?

ddavitt: He would be baslim

DavidWrightSr: No worse than Time Travel :-)

fgherman: (ducking)

AGplusone: Liam Neeson?

DavidWrightSr: Not Michael.

ddavitt: I am hopeless; i never know actors names..

fgherman: Schindler from Schindler’s List

ddavitt: That’s why i don’t do casting threads cos i don’t know who you all mean most of the time

BPRAL22169: Liam Neeson?

AGplusone: Rob Roy from Rob Roy

DenvToday: Neeson? Too tall, too good-looking.

DavidWrightSr: Me too, I can remember Kirk Douglas and Burt Lancaster, but that is about as far as it goes

ddavitt: Well, I won’t be here for the saturday chat but I’ll try and make the THS meeing in between soccer

AGplusone: plays sneaky good, tho

ddavitt: and the after game party

AGplusone: too heroic?

ddavitt: Now I’m off to see to lauren again.

BPRAL22169: I always figured LL got away with sneaky because he doesn’t look sneaky.

ddavitt: Night all.

OscagneTX: ‘night

McKevin0: night

BPRAL22169: Ciao.

fgherman: Good night jane

AGplusone: night

ddavitt has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: What’s the time for the next meeting?

DenvToday: How about a younger Lee Marvin for LL?

AGplusone: THS, or reading chat?

DavidWrightSr: THS?

fgherman: Kevin Kline

DenvToday: Kline would be good.

DavidWrightSr: THS yes

OscagneTX: KK for LL. good choice.

BPRAL22169: Somebody would have to teach him posture.

fgherman: Nick NOlte

AGplusone: Actually, I always thought an “aw shucks” jimmie stewart type would do Laz well

McKevin0: Nolte would be great

fgherman: Can you tell I’m a move fan?

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: For THS — Saturday at 10 a.m. PDT — that’s 1 p.m. for the left coasters.

AGplusone: Remember how nasty old Jimmie got in Winchester 73?

DenvToday: Henry Fonda might have been good in the part

fgherman: Nicholas Cage is an obvious choice

DenvToday: He’s got that Missouri middle-America thing going.

DavidWrightSr: The problem with casting LL is that it would take different ones for different ages

fgherman: And Cage could do them all – he’s extraordinary

AGplusone: dye his hair red? he’d look like Mike Piazza as a blond. Silly

McKevin0: lets ask Veerhoven

AGplusone: put a dime in the box, Kevin

McKevin0: ducking

DavidWrightSr: That’s a dollar in the box

fgherman: I vote for Bryan Singer

fgherman: fgherman: (and I’m not even using Internet Movie Database www.imdb.com)

DenvToday: Okay, I’ve got LL. Tom Hanks.

fgherman: Too trustworthy

BPRAL22169: No, no — John Travolta!

fgherman: No! – we need an actor

DenvToday: Saturday Night Lazarus?

BPRAL22169: LOL

McKevin0: Freddy Prinze, Jr.

BPRAL22169: Hey — he’s Staying Alive — isn’t that good enough?

DenvToday: lol

DJedPar: Clint Eastwood?

AGplusone: Eastwood in Misty?

McKevin0: brrrrrr

DenvToday: Play Minerva For Me

AGplusone: *not* as the pig-farmer

fgherman: Joel says Al Pacino or Rober DeNiro

DenvToday: How about Russel Crowe?

AGplusone: hsssss

fgherman: (he always suggests them, though)

BPRAL22169: Michael Biehn?

McKevin0: Harrison Ford?

McKevin0: I can see him as Ted

DenvToday: I would suggest Wesley Snipes, but um..uh..well…

BPRAL22169: OK — I believe we are well over into Madness now.

AGplusone: How ’bout old man Johnson. That would be fun to cast!

fgherman: Gary Sinise

DenvToday: Bill, you say that as if it’s a bad thing.

BPRAL22169: Snipes does do the redhead thing, though, doesn’t he?

DenvToday: lol Good point

McKevin0: Sinse would be real good

BPRAL22169: Just an observation. Just an observation.

fgherman: He was a blond in one movie

DenvToday: Sinise would be excellent.

BPRAL22169: Well, for that matter, there’s that Laker maniac.

BPRAL22169: Ex-Laker.

McKevin0: Rodman

fgherman: Christopher Lloyd

BPRAL22169: Right. Dennis Rodman.

BPRAL22169: Hey – maybe we could get Howie Long. He’s got the right last name.

McKevin0: Now that we’ve got Mo and LL cast….

DavidWrightSr: Maybe that would explain why some people think Colin Campbell is black.

fgherman: Stanley Tucci

BPRAL22169: That’s it — we’ll cast Dennis Rodman as Colin Campbell.

BPRAL22169: And Viveca Fox as Gwen.

DenvToday: I have a question: Do you think Doc McRae in Red Planet was L.L.?

DavidWrightSr: And Snipes as his father Lazarus Long

BPRAL22169: Bill Murray as — who else? — Bill.

AGplusone: Richard Farnsworth, the one who committed suicide, or …. for Dr. Johnson

BPRAL22169: Richard Farnsworth would have made a great Ira Johnson.

DenvToday: Samuel Clemens would be perfect casting as Dr. Johnson. If we could get him we could use…

DenvToday: …Hal Holbrook.

AGplusone: or … the good old boy who plays the assistant attorney general who comes into the Paul Newman gets

fgherman: Do we get Dixie Carter thrown in?

OscagneTX: gotta get up in 7 hours. ‘night all.

McKevin0: Jason Robards would make a good Dr. Johnson

AGplusone: libeled in the newspaper movie.

BPRAL22169: Wilford Brimley.

AGplusone: Yes.

DenvToday: Maureen in her later years?

OscagneTX has left the room.

AGplusone: Brimley

fgherman: Bob Hoskins for Ruffo

DenvToday: Danny Devito for Ruffo

DenvToday: Hoskins would be better.

fgherman: Joel’s suggestion

AGplusone: Hoskins much better

DenvToday: We could always get Sancho Panza for Ruffo. Is he busy?

fgherman: Brian Dennehy as Doc Johnson

AGplusone: Yaphet Koto as Ruffo

fgherman: I’m getting *way * too silly

DenvToday: Dennehy would be great as L.L. if he lost 60 lbs.

AGplusone: seriously

DavidWrightSr: As Bill said , Madness

AGplusone: [hate to say this: young Redford as Laz …. Jeremiah Johnson ]

fgherman: Good night all

AGplusone: or as “Bill” in Happy Valley anyway

McKevin0: night

fgherman has left the room.

DenvToday: My gf is in love with that actor from JAG, can’t remember his name. Him for L.L.?

DenvToday: Or for Oscar?

AGplusone: possible, except we’d have to break his nose and give him a scar

DenvToday: True. And it would be fun.

McKevin0: What’s his name who played Ted Bundy

DenvToday: Harmon

McKevin0: Mark Harmon

AGplusone: Mark Harmon, old UCLA quarterback! Rah, rah, rah.

McKevin0: Or Sonny Corleone

DenvToday: Al Pacino would make a good Ruffo

McKevin0: I think he’d have the edge

DenvToday: Or Dustin Hoffman

AGplusone: Have to fatten him up like DeNiro

AGplusone: but Pacino can do Leghorn, he can certainly do Ruffo

McKevin0: He could play Both LL and Mo

McKevin0: (Dustin, that is)

DJedPar: Aaaaaarrrrgh!

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: I told you, did I not?

McKevin0: (it’s the Laophraig)

DavidWrightSr: Madness??? Yes indeed

DJedPar: You sure did!

AGplusone:

DenvToday: If we weren’t mad, would we all be here?

AGplusone: “have a round of dimes on me”

DJedPar: It’s still fun, nevertheless.

AGplusone: ’tis, even if we feel silly. I’m very proud of suggesting Kingman!

McKevin0: Somewhere in here, the right actor has been cast

AGplusone: Kingston

AGplusone: eh

BPRAL22169: Maybe not for the right role —

DenvToday: Juliana Moore for Maureen

McKevin0: Waldo?

BPRAL22169: Kingston was bang on.

AGplusone:

ggsollars has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Gordon! Welcome

McKevin0: OK, now we can start this over with Gordon

BPRAL22169: Gordon!

BPRAL22169: Nononononono!

DavidWrightSr: Please No

ggsollars: I just got back from a meeting and I see that there are a few die hards left.

DenvToday: I still picture Star as Bo Derek. Does that make me a bad person?

AGplusone: Good, we can get serious now. No more casting Alex Kingston as Maureen.

AGplusone: Did you get your Journal yet?

ggsollars: No.

AGplusone:

BPRAL22169: I haeve to find a Netscape server.

ggsollars: But I saw your message. If they were mailed two days ago, I wouldn;t expect to have mine yet

DenvToday: RAH’s first wife?

BPRAL22169: Second, actually.

DenvToday: Oh. lol

DenvToday: Shrouded in mystery.

AGplusone: Yes, there’s a long article by robert james on Leslyn in the Journal, issue 9, just issued

AGplusone: some amazing stuff

ggsollars: Has anything been learned about the mysterious 1st wife?

DenvToday: How does one subscribe?

BPRAL22169: What are they saying over on sff?

BPRAL22169: The Heinlein Journal, 602 W. Bennett AVe., Glendora, CA 91741

AGplusone: They were talking about Heinlein heroines ….

AGplusone: and unrealistic meetings

DenvToday: Only by snail mail Bill?

McKevin0: Lust at first sight?

BPRAL22169: So far — I tried electronic mail for the early issues, but it didn’t work out well.

DenvToday: I’ll write. How much?

BPRAL22169: And this last issue is a 14 Mb file!

AGplusone: got pitchurs

AGplusone: of Leslyn …

AGplusone: etc

ggsollars: Pictures? What’s next? Four color?

DavidWrightSr: Single Issue 7.50 ?

McKevin0: everyone was black & white back then

AGplusone: und after dat, der wald!

BPRAL22169: Depends on what you want — first 6 as a bound volume for $35 + $7.50 per issue after

AGplusone: Also a rather nice review of Never Love a Stranger, or whatever these two guys named Patterson and

DenvToday: That could be true. The film was color–thw world was black and white.

BPRAL22169: that. We’re up to #9 now.

AGplusone: Thorton came out with.

DenvToday: Okay, thanks Bill.

AGplusone:

BPRAL22169: yeah, that Davitt dudette can really rite, huh?

McKevin0: (English as a first language)

ggsollars: Sorry I cam so late to this party. I take it that there was a definite topic at one time. 😉

BPRAL22169: We actually did talk about To Sail and TEFL for an hour or so.

DavidWrightSr: Yes, but someone time tripped and changed the past :-)

AGplusone: Yep … someone please define it for Gordon (mass quantities, here, is confused)

DenvToday: Old age hath yet his honour and his toil

DenvToday: Is TSBTS the last RAH work, or was it the last published work?

BPRAL22169: Last novel.

BPRAL22169: he wrote the “Godbody” preface later.

AGplusone: I felt he was trying to wind up all the themes as a finale in TSBTS and perhaps coming closer to a

McKevin0: Just be sure you read them all in the correct order

AGplusone: “truth” in Mo than in any other narrator

AGplusone: more sophisticated, more reliable, less inhibited

AGplusone: and a great deal more patient that that liar Woody

DenvToday: Very true. Excellent points.

AGplusone: More tolerant about trivialities too …

DenvToday: I still haven’t forgiven Brian. lol

McKevin0: the rat

AGplusone: and Maureen would never disclose her hiding places under her kilt

AGplusone: to the reader or anyone else

DenvToday: Brian paid, though. He died at the ridiculously young age of a mere century.

ggsollars: The wages of Sin is death.

DenvToday: I thought it was $14.50 per hour.

AGplusone: or terminal foolishness

AGplusone: young men lead with their pelvises, old men damned well learn better

McKevin0: “If you marry that young woman at your age, it could be fatal.” “Well, if she dies, she dies…”

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: Good One!

AGplusone: better learn better

AGplusone: I always though Ulysses was the most thoughtful and secretive of men … and To Sail has a female Ulys

AGplusone: ready for new adventures. Woody’s just laying around with his harem in this one.

AGplusone: dreaming until he gets the call from her

McKevin0: well, gotta go – my young bride is calling me\

McKevin0 has left the room.

AGplusone: [tying hard to draw some reason beyond the title for Tennyson’s poem here]

DenvToday: I think it applied to RAH rather than LL

DenvToday: “Old age hath yet his honor and his toil…”

AGplusone: LL is one of Maureen’s men, who Uly calls out of retirement to SBTS

DenvToday: “Death closes all, but something ere the end, some work of noble note may yet be done…”

DenvToday: “…not unbecoming men that strove with gods.”

AGplusone: and they’re going back after daddy too

ggsollars: I’ve got to go, as well. For you folks going to Philly, have fun – but remember what Jubal said

ggsollars: about the place.

AGplusone: which was …. ?

ggsollars has left the room.

AGplusone: same thing Dunkenfield (?) said?

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Something about Duke wanting to go to Philadelphia for a sanity day.

BPRAL22169: or night, more appropriately.

DavidWrightSr: Why would anyone want to spend a night in Philly?

AGplusone: aka as “it was closed”

AGplusone: Anyone reading the bio of John Adams?

BPRAL22169: chacun a son gout

DenvToday: Not yet. I plan to.

AGplusone: Very interesting portrait of Philly at the beginning of the story which begins in 1776 of course

AGplusone: Adams rides down from MA to the beginning of 2d CC

AGplusone: very good so far

AGplusone: We have 30 minutes …. your pleasure, gentlemen.

DenvToday: Actually, I must be going. Early morning. I’ll try to make it back on Saturday.

DenvToday: Thank you all for a terrific discussion as always.

AGplusone: Good, looking forward to seeing you Ron

DenvToday: Night all.

DenvToday: Thanks

DenvToday has left the room.

DJedPar: Me too, Bye all.

DJedPar has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I think it would be a good time to pack it in today. A pleasure, all.

BPRAL22169: They gave them Oscars?

AGplusone: not exactly

BPRAL22169: Oh, a different academy…

DavidWrightSr: Bill. Does that 7.50 include shipping

BPRAL22169: Yes. In the U.S. The international rate is $10 per issue.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. I’ll be sending a check soon.

BPRAL22169: I think we’re done here, aren’t we?

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: In that case, i’ll say goodnight.

AGplusone: g’night, Bill, g’night David

DavidWrightSr: David. Do I leave in our pre-chat discussion.

BPRAL22169: Ciao

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: Sure, no problem there

DavidWrightSr: It’s ok by me, but its your call. I thought it was interesting

AGplusone: so did Felicia

AGplusone: which flattered me no end

AGplusone: yes

DavidWrightSr: I got pretty bored with the casting stuff. Like Jane I don’t know

DavidWrightSr: most of todays actors/actresses. Hope we can keep on topic Sat

AGplusone: We’ll try. I’m really not sure what topic. Saturday, special schedule.

DavidWrightSr: Different from tonight? I hadn’t heard that. Oh. Because Jane won’t be there

DavidWrightSr: OK. That’s it for me. See you Sat. Night David

AGplusone: g’nite from NBC news

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed 11:45 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 08-04-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Spies, Sneaks and Finks

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 08-04-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Spies, Sneaks and Finks

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DJedPar: Hi David.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny, Hi Denis

SAcademy: Hello David.

DJedPar: Plus tard, ma chere.

SAcademy: Oui, mon enfant

DJedPar: Merci, maman!

SAcademy: Maybe David speaks French. He does know German and Russian.

DavidWrightSr: Je parle un petit peu. il y a une langtemp depuis j’ etudie francais

DavidWrightSr: or something lik that. French ain’t my strong suit

DJedPar: You are a very good Mensch, David.

DavidWrightSr: Spasibo, Danke

SAcademy: Me, to David, but I had quite a lot of it.

DJedPar: This will be an international session? Like the UN.

SAcademy: Lucky us, we can spell the Rssian anyway we want to.

DavidWrightSr: I haven’t studied it since 10th grade, that was 1956

KultsiKN has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Another International visitor

SAcademy: Hi, Kultsi. Do you know Denis Paradis?

KultsiKN: Good evening, everybody!

DJedPar: Hi Kultsi.

DavidWrightSr: Kultsi is Finnish, Denis

SAcademy: I guess it is evening in Helsinki.

KultsiKN: Hello. Denis

KultsiKN: Midnight.

SAcademy: Very late for you!

SAcademy: I wonder whether Sean will come today?

DavidWrightSr: It’s early sunday for him isn’t it?

KultsiKN: Saturday and summer vacation. What’s one more white night?

DavidWrightSr: That’s right. you don’t get much nighttime this time of year do you?

SAcademy: Yes, the Norwegians stay up all night in the summer, They say they can sleep in the winter.

DavidWrightSr: I was stationed in Northern Germany. I recall some very short nights.

KultsiKN: I’m not that far to the North, the nights are dark already.

SAcademy: Kultsi is quite a bit north of there.

KultsiKN: Indeed I am, Ginny.

DavidWrightSr: AOL just announced a new version of AIM. I’ll probably try it out next week.

SAcademy: I remember having dinner at around 11PM one night in Finland. The sky was still light.

SAcademy: I hope it gives us longer spaces for typing.

DJedPar: I installed it yesterday I think. Mostly kiddie stuff.

DavidWrightSr: It’s supposed to have a lot of bells and whistles, but I doubt that it will be an improvement

SAcademy: How long is the download?

DavidWrightSr: I think the limit on messages is determined by the server, not which program we use

DJedPar: About 1o minutes.

KultsiKN: What speed?

SAcademy: Not bad at all. On five, I am stil getting notices of a download as I sign off.

DavidWrightSr: I’m going to be AFK for most of the evening still. Still can’t sit in one position too long

DJedPar: I forget. They were doing it while I was logging on to this chat room.

SAcademy: How are you feeling today, David?

DavidWrightSr: A good deal better, but not yet up to par.

SAcademy: Is it very painful?

DavidWrightSr: I’m hoping that it will improve enough to be able to get back to work monday

KultsiKN: What’s biting, David?

SAcademy: I never had chicken pox as a child, so I can’t get that!

DavidWrightSr: Not terribly. Just have to keep off of it. Shingles, Kultsi. where I sit down.

DavidWrightSr: Thats an inflamation of nerves caused by the same virus as chicken pox

SAcademy: Would a rubber doughnut help? One that blows up?

DavidWrightSr: I would have to sit side-saddle :-)

SAcademy: I mean inflatable.

DJedPar: Shades of Waldo!

SAcademy: I didn’t know he had chicken pox.

DJedPar: No but he didn’t have to sit either.

SAcademy: Okay. Snowy is awake

SAcademy: He’s scratching my shoes.

DJedPar: Hi you handsome Devil

SAcademy: He can’t read.

DJedPar: How do you know?

SAcademy: Shall I tell him, or would his head swell up?

DJedPar: He’s very cool.

SAcademy: Actually, I don’t know.

DJedPar: He might surprise you. He reads you very well, I think.

SAcademy: Just went back to AOL and didn’t see anyone there.

DJedPar: I think they all knew it was on for today.

SAcademy: Who will be running this thing? Jane, or

David S.?

KultsiKN: I see lots of people, just not on this chat.

DJedPar: How do you see them, Kultsi?

DavidWrightSr: Jane won’t be here. She had visitors

KultsiKN: On my buddy list

DavidWrightSr: Denis. You add their screen names to your ‘buddy list’ then you see them when they are on

DJedPar: Got it.

SAcademy: Then it has to be David or Bill. Bill reminded me of this when I saw him earlier.

DJedPar: I think David S is hosting.

KultsiKN: Like I just added you, Denis, to AFH group on my buddy list.

DavidWrightSr: I expect that they will show up in a little while. Always in the past when I thought…

DavidWrightSr: that things were going to be slow, they always picked up.

DJedPar: Thanks Kultsi.

Berllan5UD has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi David. It is David isn’t it from England?

Berllan5UD: well, Wales, but we won’t quibble. lol

DJedPar: I told you this would be a UN summit.

SAcademy: Perish that thought!

DavidWrightSr: Sorry about that. Wales it is.

KultsiKN: It’s hard to see the difference from US 😉

SAcademy: But it is David?

Berllan5UD: hard to see it from here sometimes

Berllan5UD: yes, it is David

SAcademy: Thanks. would yo mind using boldface?

DavidWrightSr: I wonder where our fearless leader is?

DJedPar: Maybe you should prod him. Maybe he forgot the time.

SAcademy: Who knows? I saw him earlier.

DavidWrightSr: Well, just chat amongst ourselves. Someone will be along to get us started I’m sure.

SAcademy: He’s not around. I expect he will apologize.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got to get up from keyboard for a while.

SAcademy: Okay. Anyone know anything? It’s spies and such for the topic.

KultsiKN: At the beginning…

DavidWrightSr: Spies, Sneaks and Finks.

DJedPar: I’ve just gone blank for a minute there.

DJedPar: Finnish humour?

SAcademy: The topic worked well on Thursday night.

KultsiKN: No, RAH. Mike in Moon.

SAcademy: He wasn’t a spy. Or was he?

DenvToday has entered the room.

DJedPar: Yes it did. I thought they were going on like a poker game.

KultsiKN: He was, the best kind.

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody.

SAcademy: Good after noon

DJedPar: Hi Denv.

DenvToday: Good to see you all.

SAcademy: Do you really live in Denver? We lved in Colo Spgs for years.

Berllan5UD: how do you increase text size?

DenvToday: Yes, I do live in Denver. I know you lived there, and I have many friends who live in the Springs.

DenvToday: Most of them are retired Air Force.

DJedPar: Kultsi might answer that.

SAcademy: We ad to leave because of the altitude.

KultsiKN: View, Edit Chat Preferences, IM Buddy Chat

Berllan5UD: aha

Berllan5UD: damn

DJedPar: Thanks Kultsi.

DenvToday: I can understand that. Many wonderful things about the Colorado climate…the sunshine, lack of…

Berllan5UD: try again

DenvToday: …humidty. But the alitude is one of the drawbacks.

DJedPar: Can you send some rain this way. Please?

SAcademy: We’ve had storm clouds all week, and a lot of rain, but the position is wrong to send it to you, Denis

KultsiKN: My fony is Comic Sans MS, 8 points

KultsiKN: fony=font

SAcademy: Now if you could get the earth to revolve in the other direction, I might do something about it.

DJedPar: I would love to try. But I have no knack for it.

DenvToday: We had a tax rate cut this year. That’s as close as we’re going to get to the earth revolving…

DenvToday: …in the other direction.

Berllan5UD: david, i’m going to reboot AIM. please send another invite in 30 secs

Berllan5UD has left the room.

DJedPar: Maybe you’d better invite him Ginny.

Berllan5UD has entered the room.

DenvToday: Can I help?

DenvToday: wb

SAcademy: I’ve sent several invites. No luck yet.

Berllan5UD: it worked

SAcademy: Guess so.

DJedPar: You’re blue! Nice colour.

SAcademy: You’ve got a different color.

DavidWrightSr: Color and font size changes don’t appear to take affect unless you restart.

SAcademy: That’s the color for links.

DenvToday has left the room.

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Let’s see…

DenvToday: No, didn’t work.

Berllan5UD: born a Tory. die a Tory, DJ

SAcademy: I should warn everyone. Don’t touch escape key!

DJedPar: In Canada, I’m a liberal.

DavidWrightSr: Right. It drops you right out of the program, No warning

fgherman has entered the room.

SAcademy: It will kick you offline again

DenvToday: lol Now you’re tempting me. “Whatever you do, do NOT push the red button!”

fgherman: Hello all

SAcademy: Hello, Felicia.

DenvToday: Hello fg

KultsiKN: Hi, Felicia!

SAcademy: Joel sent me pictures of your daughters. They’re beautiful

fgherman: Thank you, Ginny

SAcademy: I told him to get out his white shotgun.

fgherman: lol

SAcademy: He didn’t find it funny, somehow.

SAcademy: How old are the girls?

fgherman: Rachel is 7 and Judy is 11

SAcademy: Thanks.

DJedPar: OK. Ginny, would you consider Headmaster Howe in Red Planet a fink?

Berllan5UD: a what?

fgherman has left the room.

DJedPar: a Fink. as in the topic tonite, as opposed to a villain

DavidWrightSr: I didn’t participate Thursday, But part of what I saw as a problems was a lack of definitions.

fgherman has entered the room.

fgherman: oops

KultsiKN: No need to blush

DavidWrightSr: The old ESC key?

Berllan5UD: a fink is a good guy?

KultsiKN: No

DenvToday: A fink is a traitor.

DenvToday: A Quizling.

DavidWrightSr: Anyone want to define fink?

DenvToday: A double agent, usually.

fgherman: the “-” NOT the “x”

Berllan5UD: right. got it

DJedPar: Not in my book. A fink is a dirty lousy…..

DJedPar: What’s a quizling?

DavidWrightSr: As I see it, a fink is one who is willing to sell out his side for money or other personal gain

DenvToday: Yes, that works.

DJedPar: Like my old boss.

SAcademy: It’s Quisling, and he was a Norwegian traitor during WWII

DavidWrightSr: Quisling was an official of Norway who sold out to the Nazi’s

KultsiKN: Quisling is a proper name of a Norwegian traitor

DJedPar: Encyclopedic Ginny!

SAcademy: What’s the difference between fink and scab?

DavidWrightSr: The term is not synonomous with spy, since their value as a spy is destroyed once they sell out.

DenvToday: A scab is a worker who will cross a picket line.

SAcademy: Thank you. Can’t keep things straight with slang terms.

DJedPar: Did Hoffa coin the term Scab?

DenvToday: I think it’s been around since the 19th century.

DavidWrightSr: Scab goes way back in the labor movement. Wish AG were here, he could tell us more clearly

SAcademy: Don’t know. but I think it existed befor he held sway

KultsiKN: Scab has several meanings, one of which is strike breaker.

DavidWrightSr: scab is pretty restricted to labor movement, but fink is general usage.

SAcademy: You tell us natives,Kultsi.

DavidWrightSr: Remember Wyoh asked Manny if he ‘finked for authority’?

KultsiKN: Scabies

KultsiKN: Crust on a wound

SAcademy: It doesn’t mean the same thing, I believe.

DJedPar: Not those little crabs again.

fgherman: According to the OED: A pejorative term of wide application, esp.

DJedPar: Sarcoptes scabiei

fgherman: a. An unpleasant or contemptible person.

KultsiKN: No, but it has those meanings

fgherman: b. An informer; a detective. c. A strike-breaker.

SAcademy: Thank you Felicia

DavidWrightSr: ‘fink’ has a bad connotation. ‘informant’ has a good one. Depends on which side you are O:-)

fgherman: intr. To inform on.

DJedPar: Felicia, are you a librarian?

DenvToday: Fink became a popular word kid in the early 60’s when I was a kid.

KultsiKN: Merriam-Webster Online defines it a bit differently

DenvToday: when I was a kid, that is

fgherman: Of course

DenvToday: We used it the same way we’d use “jerk.”

DJedPar: Bravo!

DJedPar: I agree with Denv on the use of Fink in the 60s

DavidWrightSr: words often lose a lot of their meaning when they become overused. People pick them up …

DavidWrightSr: without knowing the original meaning.

DJedPar: Like decimate?

fgherman: Rather like the Red Queen in Alice

fgherman: a Fink is like a Narc

SAcademy: Anything that begns deci- means tenths.

DavidWrightSr: I never was clear if it meant reduce *by* a tenth or *to* a tenth.

DJedPar: Today they use it in the sense = annhilate

SAcademy: But nihil means none.

DavidWrightSr: That has become the standard meaning.

DenvToday: “Fantastic” properly means unbelievable rather than “wonderful.”

SAcademy: As you can see, I studied Latin for years.

DJedPar: Right. Deci means one in 10 and matar means kill.

Berllan5UD: ugh. was it Caesar who used decimation on his troops?

SAcademy: I never heard of that!

DJedPar: He did it properly. Killed one in 10.

DavidWrightSr: Decimate. Is that what the Brits did when they gave up pounds, shillings, pence?

DJedPar: Ooooh!!

Berllan5UD: i ought to know which Roman it was. damn, i’m going gaga

DJedPar: Caligula and also Tiberius.

DenvToday: I can remember the first line from The Gallic Wars. lol My big achievement in 7th grade Latin.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. we have a rought definition of ‘fink’. What finks come to mind in RAH’s works?

DavidWrightSr: rought=rough

KultsiKN: Snotty Fasset, although that might be arguable.

DenvToday: A fink of sorts was the assistant astrogator in Starman Jones. I can’t remember the character’s name.

DavidWrightSr: Simes.

DenvToday: Yes

DavidWrightSr: but were either finks according to our definition. or just jerks

KultsiKN: Simes was not a fink, he was just plain nasty.

KultsiKN: A faulty person.

DenvToday: Simes was a traitor to his profession and the crew. He betrayed them by covering up his mistakes…

DJedPar: Maybe we should add Jerks to the discussion.

DenvToday: …attempting to take over. But maybe I”m stretching it.

DavidWrightSr: The only finks that I can think of off hand were collaborators in Puppet Masters and Sixth Column.

DavidWrightSr: Denv. Good point. what about Fasset. who did he betray?

KultsiKN: His comrades.

DavidWrightSr: The whole concept of ‘side’ gets kind of murky with respect to the Prophet and his cronies.

Bdelloguy has entered the room.

SAcademy: Hello, Mark

DenvToday: Greetings

KultsiKN: Doesn’t it always with traitors: a traitor on one side, a hero on the other?

Bdelloguy: Hi Ginny, Hi All. Just thought I would try to get my IM system working again!

DenvToday: Good point. Benedict Arnold was a hero to the British.

SAcademy: And to the colonies in the French and Indian wars.

fgherman: Hello Mark

DavidWrightSr: Message is too long or too complex

DenvToday: Generally in the works of RAH, we have less emphasis on villains and more empahsis on the protagonists

DenvToday: Their positive force rather than their reaction to the villain’s negative force.

DavidWrightSr: Right. All of these spies, sneaks, and finks are really very minor to the story if they appear at all

Bdelloguy: Whoops.

SAcademy: Unfortunately, stories need conflict, or you don’t have a story.

DJedPar: Isn’t that something Robert said?

SAcademy: Sometimes it’s man aggainst man, other times it’s man against nature.

Bdelloguy: A friend of mine said that every word in fiction should do one of two things…

DavidWrightSr: Just thought of more ‘finks’. Skinny and Fatso in HSSWT

Bdelloguy: 1. Reveal character, 2. Advance plot.

DenvToday: In THIAHM, the villain is oppression and unfair exploitation rather than a person. Mort the Wart…

DenvToday: …is a minor annoyance, not rising to the level of villain.

Bdelloguy: But evil can be banal in origin…

KultsiKN: He was an icon of tyranny

Bdelloguy: Look at the Rudbek clan in COTG

DavidWrightSr: How Mark?

Bdelloguy: My reading of COTG never suggested that the Rudbeks *actively* wanted to get

Bdelloguy: into slavery….

Bdelloguy: But they ended up sacrificing Thorby’s parents for cash from slavers

Bdelloguy: So: is evil inherent, or must it grow…even from a pure heart?!

DenvToday: Long time since I read COTG. But the acting head of the corporation was a fink. Again, I can’t…

DenvToday: remember his name.

DavidWrightSr: Weemsby

Bdelloguy: Sure. A fink AND a lawyer!

DenvToday: He played being Thorby’s friend and mentor, then stabbed him in the back.

DJedPar: I gather Robert was very much against slavery. The theme comes up often.

SAcademy: Well can you think of anything better to be against?

DenvToday: Only the IRS. lol

DavidWrightSr: Same thing :-)

DJedPar: Not unless I try very hard.

DenvToday: Very true!

SAcademy: We saw it with communism

DJedPar: Freedom is paramount in most societies.

DenvToday: I can think of one very admirable fink.

DenvToday: In one of the early short stories. A Jewish doctor must operate on a Hitler-like character.

DavidWrightSr: Is it? most people want it for themselves, but are very willing to restrict it for others

DenvToday: He turns the tables on Hitler.

DJedPar: Oh, David. You know what I mean.

DJedPar: That’s very good Denv!

Berllan5UD: out of my depth here. nite all

DavidWrightSr: That wasn’t being a fink. He was not betraying ‘his’ side, but supporting it

Berllan5UD has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: So Long David

DenvToday: That’s true. And he was operating under duress. But to the Nazis he was a fink.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Hello, all

KultsiKN: Hi, Bill

DenvToday: Good afternoon Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome. Bill

SAcademy: Hi, Bill

BPRAL22169: Sorry for not being here sooner — I lost track of time.

DJedPar: Hi Bill. All Nazis were finks.

BPRAL22169: *blink*

BPRAL22169: I thought “fink” was rather narrowly defined.

DavidWrightSr: We had a fairly loose definition for our use so far. You want to define it further

DenvToday: I think “informer” is the most accurate definition of fink.

BPRAL22169: I would agree with Denv — except for the connotations of ratting out one’s fellows.

BPRAL22169: Hence the “rat fink” of Mad Magazine fame.

BPRAL22169: But totalitarian regimes always require their proles to inform on each other.

BPRAL22169: Each polices the thoughtcrimes of the others.

BPRAL22169: So the statement, while true within the definition, is trivial.

DavidWrightSr: We have used the term to mean anyone who sells out his side for money or personal gain

DavidWrightSr: Including, Quisling, Arnold etc. Although I am sure one can debate those.

DJedPar: Mussolini? Pius XII?

BPRAL22169: In terms of that definition, then, all Nazis are not finks.

DavidWrightSr: I agree

DenvToday: Did anyone here grow up in Cleveland?

DavidWrightSr: Of course, the question of ‘what is his side’ is really difficult to define.

BPRAL22169: It’s truly a matter of what definitions you choose to apply.

DenvToday: Nathan Hale was a fink to the British, wasn’t he?

BPRAL22169: No, he was a spy.

DenvToday: Yes.

DenvToday: Well…I guess not really an informer.

DavidWrightSr: But many Nazi’s were finks in the sense that they went along rather than defending …

DavidWrightSr: what they believed was right or wrong.

BPRAL22169: “Fink” doesn’t really seem to fit the entire Nazi party. How about “Sneak”?

DavidWrightSr: How about just plain ‘evil’?

BPRAL22169: (I could get myself into so much trouble here!)

DenvToday: How about “rotting in Hell.” More satisfying.

DJedPar: Evil is a better term for Nazis

BPRAL22169: Children! Children!

DavidWrightSr: We haven’t got a defnitiion for spy yet, Bill. Haven’t made it that far

DenvToday: Sorry Dad.

BPRAL22169: May I suggest a compromise: evil AND rotting in hell.

fgherman: And the plot against Hitler didn’t happen until the Nazis started losing.

DenvToday: Of course. von Staufenberg and Rommel were very happy with Hitler when they were winning.

BPRAL22169: Never too late to refurbish one’s moral armaments.

DJedPar: That’s good Bill. And maybe more…

DavidWrightSr: IMHO, that was a case of finks realizing that they were on the losing side .

BPRAL22169: Put on the whole armor of righteousness, that sort of thing.

DavidWrightSr: and wanting to get on the winning side.

BPRAL22169: I don’t think you can justify that historically:

DJedPar: Maybe the slugs from Puppet Masters got to them.

BPRAL22169: Von Stauffenberg seems to have thought they were losing BECAUSE of Hitler and if sensible

BPRAL22169: management got in they might be able to turn the war around or make some compromise

BPRAL22169: I think we can let the July plotters be honorable men

BPRAL22169: If there is any inclination to that position.

BPRAL22169: Since we seem to be at WWII, why not turn to “The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag”?

DenvToday: Von Stauffenberg did not make a moral judgement at the beginning. His opinion of Hitler and…

DenvToday: …the Nazi gang was pragmatic. He could have refused service early on if he had moral qualms.

DenvToday: That goes triple for Rommel.

BPRAL22169: While I certainly agree it was too little too late, but the situation is not quite so black-and-white

BPRAL22169: as you wish to make it appear.

BPRAL22169: Why not leave the gentlemen to their private hell and move on — we have so MANY levels of

DenvToday: I suppose. But there was a German underground who actively opposed the Nazis. Little-known.

BPRAL22169: hell available for exploration.

DenvToday: The Bird is the Word. lol

DenvToday: Word

DenvToday: Loved that song as a kid.

BPRAL22169: 1942 to 1962!

DenvToday: I always hum it when reading Hoag.

BPRAL22169: In one fell leap.

BPRAL22169: The Sons of the Bird seem to have institutionalized all sorts of sleaziness.

KultsiKN: How about we take ten?

DJedPar: Good idea!

fgherman: ok

KultsiKN: Just out of the blue: how common are mobile phones in your necks of woods?

BPRAL22169: Do you mean cellular?

KultsiKN: Yep.

BPRAL22169: We have both mobile and cellular in the U.S.

fgherman: Can’t spin a cat

BPRAL22169: Very. It’s down to about $40 a month.

KultsiKN: Define, please, Bill

KultsiKN: mobile – cellular

BPRAL22169: I think the mobile phones are simply those that can be removed from their base unit – wireless.

BPRAL22169: The new ones can go up to a mile now.

KultsiKN: U.M. cordless?

BPRAL22169: Cellular phones don’t have a base unit — they are portable and send and receive within their

BPRAL22169: own casing.

BPRAL22169: The digital people talk as if theirs were something different from cellular, but I don’t

BPRAL22169: think that’s the case.

KultsiKN: OK. I mean those. We have more than two million of those in Finland.

KultsiKN: Our population is five million.

DenvToday: As a percentage of the population, that probably higher than here in the U.S.

BPRAL22169: No, that sounds about right for the Bay Area.

DenvToday: Not for Denver.

BPRAL22169: They’ve had to introduce 8 new area codes — each area code giving 100 million possible new numbers.

fgherman: Finland has the highest percentage of the population using cellular according to the stats I’ve seen

DenvToday: The sheer size of the U.S. works against cellular technology.

DenvToday: Vast reaches inbetween cities.

BPRAL22169: yes. The U.S. phone system is a hashed file.

BPRAL22169: Laugh, somebody. That was a joke.

DJedPar: 😀

SAcademy: LOL. ROFL

DenvToday: Sorry, I was busy craving hashed potattoes.

DenvToday: aaack I Quayled. potatoes.

BPRAL22169: Thank you.

DJedPar: Cellular phones are great in a blizzard and you hit a deer.

SAcademy: You mean hashed brown?

DenvToday: Yes. I love them. My arteries don’t. lol

BPRAL22169: I think they call hashed browns what the Swiss call Roesti.

BPRAL22169: But hash comes from the French hachette — chopped.

SAcademy: don’t know any swedish

DenvToday: My grandmother used to make them. She called them “hashed potatoes.” She’d also make home-made…

BPRAL22169: Neither do the Swiss, in the main. And for that we are profoundly grateful.

DenvToday: …corned beef hash. Ah..the memories

SAcademy: I like ’em with onions in them

DenvToday: Yes!

BPRAL22169: I have had something called “Red Flannel Hash” with grated beets.

DJedPar: Corned beef hash. Julian Child with an ax.

DenvToday: rofl

BPRAL22169: I suspect a Kiwi had some hand in the invention of that dish.

SAcademy: LOL

BPRAL22169: They are known to put beets on hamburgers and pizza — a vile practice.

SAcademy: New Zealanders can’t cook at all.

BPRAL22169: I guess since Jane isn’t here we can whisper that they inherited it from the English.

DenvToday: Putting beets on pizza is evil and wrong.

BPRAL22169: Contrary to natural law.

DenvToday: Exactly.

SAcademy: Natch. From who else?

DJedPar: Like lettuce on crepes?

BPRAL22169: I suppose we should consider ourselves put in our places, in Jane’s absence.

SAcademy: Jane may read the log. We’d better take out this part!

DenvToday: The British eat tomatoes for breakfast. Jane has a lot to answer for.

KultsiKN: She’s gonna read this, you know…

BPRAL22169: I don’t know if lettuce on crepes is contrary to natural law — but it seems rather pointless

BPRAL22169: to me.

BPRAL22169: As I said, we consider ourselves properly put in our places.

BPRAL22169: In absentia.

DJedPar: Beef and Kidney Pie!

DenvToday: We haven’t mentioned the passing of Poul Anderson. I was so saddened by it.

SAcademy: Ugh. Ever have that?

BPRAL22169: I’m glad we had a chance to chat with him last year.

DenvToday: Arthur C. Clarke is now the only great one left from the Heinlein generation.

SAcademy: We did a moment of silence Thursday.

BPRAL22169: You know, that might be a very good idea right now — observe a moment of silence ini memory

DJedPar: Yes. Ugh! Tastes like urine. Really. BK Pie I mean.

BPRAL22169: of Poul Anderson — thenr econvene

BPRAL22169: Agreed?

KultsiKN: Yes.

DenvToday: Yes, of course.

BPRAL22169: We’re on, starting now.

BPRAL22169: OK.

KultsiKN:

BPRAL22169: Anybody want to talk about Poul briefly before returning to Heinlein?

BPRAL22169: skoal.

DenvToday: Skoal!

KultsiKN: Here’s to Absent Friends

BPRAL22169: Favorite books, experiences, anecdotes?

DenvToday: If I have two favorite characters from all of speculative fiction, the first would be Lazarus Long.

BPRAL22169: van Rijn?

DenvToday: The second would be Nicholas van Rijn.

BPRAL22169: I like Steve and Virginia Matuchek

DenvToday: Yes Bill.

SAcademy: Ginny Graylock. The witch.

BPRAL22169: I’m so glad he got a second book done in that series. Truly makes it his own.

DenvToday: I think her name is an homage to you, SA.

DJedPar: Who is Ginny Graylock?

BPRAL22169: Steve matuchek’s wife.

SAcademy: In one of oul’s books.

BPRAL22169: Operation Chaos

SAcademy: He sent me a copy of it, said that I inspired it. Or something.

BPRAL22169: and — I forget the second one, was it Operation Luna?

BPRAL22169: The novelets that make up OC were directly inspired by “Magic, Inc.”

DenvToday: Yes Bill.

BPRAL22169: Are we rready to go back to our muttons?

SAcademy: At cons, Poul would retire early, and Karen would sit up all night talking to Robert, keeping him up.

BPRAL22169: She kept everyone up all night.

SAcademy: “God in a yellow bathrobe.

BPRAL22169: I have never known her to sleep.

BPRAL22169: Was that of Seacon?

SAcademy: Not at cons.

DenvToday: The RAH generation truly was the golden age. The sense that anything was possible will never be…

SAcademy: Yes, Seacon

DenvToday: …with us again. Perhaps it’s the innocence of the reading public that will never be seen again.

BPRAL22169: People still talk about the party you threw at SeaCon.

BPRAL22169: Of course, fandom was much smaller then.

KultsiKN: Denv, you are showing signs of age…

SAcademy: Do they really? It went on and on and on, And I didn’t get any sleep.

DenvToday: True Kultski. I’m approaching 50…makes you contemplative I guess. lol

BPRAL22169: You could have kept Karen Anderson company

DJedPar: Ginny, were you a party girl?

KultsiKN: sigh. I’m on the other side of it.

SAcademy: I didn’t have any choce.

BPRAL22169: Past tense? no way.

SAcademy: Not by choice, Denis.

DJedPar: Right! 😀

BPRAL22169: “Are you now or have you ever been…?”

DenvToday: “Old” is fifteen years older than you are. :-)

KultsiKN: :-)

BPRAL22169: OK, it’s going on 4 p.m. Shall we return to our muttons?

DJedPar: Yes

DenvToday:

SAcademy: Absolutely.

BPRAL22169: I see there are 9 of us here — how about each of us naming 1 each of a ‘spy,” a “fink,” and

BPRAL22169: a “sneak” in Heinlein — let’s let someone who was at Thursday’s lead off — How about you,

BPRAL22169: Felicia?

BPRAL22169: If Felicia is afk, how about David Wright?

BPRAL22169: Denis? Were you at Thursday’s?

DJedPar: Howe – Mort – Bill yes?

BPRAL22169: Howe from Red Planet. Where was Mort from?

BPRAL22169: (I just couldn’t remember)

DJedPar: MIAHM

Bdelloguy: Spy: Mike the Computer. Fink: Headmaster Howe. Sneak: Mike the Computer, again.

BPRAL22169: Oh, Mort the Wart?

DJedPar: Yes

BPRAL22169: Wasn’t he the Warden? What category are you placing him in?

Bdelloguy: I always wondered what Mort the Wart was really like….

Bdelloguy: Stuffed shirt in the wrong place, or did he ever have convictions (pun)

DenvToday: I’m sure he was a nice guy who thought he was doing good work.

BPRAL22169: Seemed like a timeserver to me.

KultsiKN: No way!

DenvToday: Like so many bureaucrats.

DenvToday: They think they’re in the right.

Bdelloguy: Bureaucrats do think THEY know best, after all.

KultsiKN: Agreed.

BPRAL22169: But you see why I’m having a hard time placing Mort in one of the three categories — Denis, help!

Bdelloguy: Now, Mort was not outraged by the rape of the Loonie girl…I say “fink”

DJedPar: What about those two characters in Podkayne? I forget their names. Mort was a Jerk

BPRAL22169: Not to pick nits, but “jerk” is not one of the three categories.

DenvToday: We discussed Weemsby before. Classic two-faced betrayer.

BPRAL22169: Though Heinlein does abound in them.

DJedPar: Ok he was a fink but a jerk according to Ginny’s use of the term.

BPRAL22169: LOL

Bdelloguy: PODKAYNE is a interesting choice. Was Uncle Tom *really* a nice guy?

Bdelloguy: He used his own grandchildren as political shields.

BPRAL22169: We’ve had this discussion; I think there was a gulf profound in our understandings of the character

BPRAL22169: Let’s take a story that contains a microcosm and look for the character types — how about

BPRAL22169: “If This Goes On–”

BPRAL22169: or Orphans of the Sky.

Bdelloguy has left the room.

DJedPar: Orphans sounds good. Give me a hint.

BPRAL22169: ITGO: Snotty Fassett was a spy and a sneak. I think RAH at one point says something lie he was

BPRAL22169: a spy because he had a sneak’s character.

BPRAL22169: Sorry, let me get collected on Orphans.

BPRAL22169: Who’s a fink in ITGO?

DJedPar: I’m no help. Brain flatulence.

BPRAL22169: I’m trying to remember charactersfrom Orphans — the priest who betrays Hugh when he returns?

DenvToday: Same here. I don’t remember a fink in ITGO. But it’s been a long while since I’ve read it.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Tawn Johnson will be here shortly.

DJedPar: Bill is that bookshelf close by? Mine’s upstairs.

BPRAL22169: Very shortly, apparently.

DenvToday: Hello Tawn.

TAWN3: Hello everybody

KultsiKN: Hello, Tawn

DJedPar: Hi Tawn!

BPRAL22169: It’s close by me — I’ve got Orphans. Did you want Revolt in 2100?

SAcademy: Nice to see you Tawn

TAWN3: Thank you SA. It is good to be here!

DJedPar: Revolt sound good too.

BPRAL22169: Orphans seems remarkably free of spies, finks, and sneaks.

BPRAL22169: OK — how about virtuous spies — Joe Green?

BPRAL22169: Any others? I’m not quite sure Friday qualifies.

TAWN3: Kettle Belly, Friday, The Old Man, …..or have they been covered already?

TAWN3: She’s a spy.

DJedPar: Yes. Thursday.

TAWN3: In the broad sense.

BPRAL22169: I’m not sure Kettle belly qualifies. The Old man might.

DenvToday: There are the two humans who work for the Aliens in Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. But they’re openly..

TAWN3: Why not Bill?

DenvToday: …taitorous. Not informers.

BPRAL22169: Broad sense — she’s actually a courier for an organization that includes spies.

DenvToday: traitorous.

BPRAL22169: We did talk about collabos on Thursday.

TAWN3: She’s a field agent none the less though.

BPRAL22169: I believe we left it at “morally weak”

BPRAL22169: But field agent does not mean spy.

TAWN3: Hmmm, OK.

BPRAL22169: Not in the sense that, say, Snotty Fassett was a spy or Joe Green was a spy.

BPRAL22169: Or Nathan Hale.

DenvToday: The character in Double Star…the operative who informs on Bonforte when he isn’t made a member…

BPRAL22169: it just occurred to me — RAH did make one of his heroes a spy, but none finks or sneaks —

DenvToday: …of the Congress.

TAWN3: Citizen of the Galaxy

BPRAL22169: Yes, that would be a fink.

TAWN3: Baslim the Beggar was a spy. By any definition.

BPRAL22169: The pickpocket who wanted to teach Thorby the trade?

BPRAL22169: Oh, very good point.

BPRAL22169: So an honorable gentleman may be a spy, but not a fink or a sneak?

TAWN3: But of course!

BPRAL22169: There speaks a revolutionary!

DJedPar: Or lady… sounds good to me.

DenvToday: Would the Double Star character be a fink? I can’t remember his name. My memory lately…

TAWN3: Like the British Foreign Service before Reilly.

BPRAL22169: Is there any other primary definition of “fink” except the union usage? I don’t know.

TAWN3: And there is a spy in Stranger.

DenvToday: If only Reilly had been successful in Russia. How many millions of deaths would have been prevented?

TAWN3: I agree Denv!

TAWN3: But Felix Dherjhinsky (spelling) played him, and it, too well.

DenvToday: Yes. What might have been.

BPRAL22169: And of course Mike is the Spy in Stranger!

TAWN3: :-)

TAWN3: :-) :-) :-)

DenvToday: Invasion of the Smiley Faces

BPRAL22169: I think the turncoat in Double Star was named “Bill” but I can’t find his last name.

TAWN3: :-)

BPRAL22169: But do they speak Martian?

DenvToday: lol

TAWN3: Double Star starts out with spies. That was covered no doubt.

DenvToday: No, it wasn’t.

TAWN3: Geez.

TAWN3: Lots of spies in Heinlein!

DenvToday: But you’re right. But I don’t think they fit the description of fink.

BPRAL22169: We have been wandering in the wilderness until you came.

TAWN3: Oh, so it must fit all three descriptions?

DenvToday: I’m not sure. lol

TAWN3: Puppet Master. I know that was covered (wasn’t it?).

TAWN3: Or, spy like activity when there is no direct spy.

BPRAL22169: it’s just Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill in Double Star.

BPRAL22169: We talked about the collaborators in Puppet Masters

BPRAL22169: Thursday.

TAWN3: For instance, Farnham’s Freehold. They resort to using spycraft to communicate.

BPRAL22169: Hard to fit Farnham’s freehold into any of the thre e– they are slaves.

TAWN3: So, one may not think it is a novel with “intelligence stuff” in it, but it is.

DenvToday: There’s a character in Farnham’s Freehold. He’s black and originally a friend of Hugh’s. But he…

TAWN3: Exactly. They are not spies at all. But they use spycraft.

DJedPar: What we would call Joseph in Farnham’s Freehold?

DenvToday: …decides he likes “black power.”

DenvToday: He becomes one of the oppressors.

BPRAL22169: I think Joseph is simply corrupted by bigotry in the same way that the others were.

BPRAL22169: There is no special virtue in being oppressed.

DenvToday: Yes. He spent his life as one of the oppressed. He decided to try the other side for once.

DenvToday: Understandable, if not admirabloe.

BPRAL22169: Yes.

BPRAL22169: Everyone in that book was a racist, in one way or another. Quite remarkable.

BPRAL22169: Something for everyone. Possbly not — was it Linda?

BPRAL22169: At least I don’t recall her demonstrating any strain of racism.

DJedPar: Who be Linda?

BPRAL22169: The daughter’s friend, who eventually winds up with Hugh.

DJedPar: Barbara?

DenvToday: People don’t often examine their basic assumptions. 50 years ago it would not have occured to most..

SAcademy: Barbara

DenvToday: …people that assuming white supremacy was racist. It was simply the order of the universe.

BPRAL22169: Yes. Barbara. “Linda” didn’t sound right, but I couldnt’ think of the correct name.

BPRAL22169: Agree, Denv. That’s one of the reasons FF was an important book in 1964-65

TAWN3: I agree. FF is a very important book.

BPRAL22169: Even though not one of his best-liked.

TAWN3: I agree. FF is a very important book. I don’t understand why most people don’t like it.

DJedPar: It’s one of my favouritest books.

TAWN3: Same with I Will fear No Evil.

DenvToday: People often resent that which makes them re-examine their basic beliefs.

TAWN3: Yes.

BPRAL22169: Yes

DJedPar: Eyah!

TAWN3: I was surprised when I found RAH fans on line and most didn’t like FF and IWFNE. I think those are

BPRAL22169: And I think that is the key to why Heinlein is so disliked by the Academy and so liked by us proles

TAWN3: two extremely important works!!!!!!

DJedPar: What Academy Bill?

BPRAL22169: Just academics in general. There are so many hoops to jump through to get a degree that an

BPRAL22169: academic becomes vested in the status quo. We, on the other hand, are very conscious that

BPRAL22169: something is wrong. They feel attacked by Heinlein; we feel validated.

TAWN3: Farnham is Politically Incorrect!

BPRAL22169: PC makes me tired.

DenvToday: Absolutely Bill.

DJedPar: Is it a Southern thing?

BPRAL22169: I don’t think so.

TAWN3: IWFNE on the other hand was politically correct way before it’s time.

BPRAL22169: About 100 years ago the intellectual life of the country went into the Academy — so they say.

BPRAL22169: We are gathered together today, among other things, to dispute that proposition.

DenvToday: How many people realize that Rod Walker is black in Tunnel in the Sky?

TAWN3: I do.

DenvToday: Yes, but how many casual readers, I meant. Not us.

TAWN3: But only because it has been brought up before in afh.

DenvToday: Same with Uncle Tom.

TAWN3: It escaped m4e in the novel.

BPRAL22169: I noticed it on first reading, but didn’t think anything about it (both Rod Walker and Uncle

BPRAL22169: [Doesn’t it take some nerve to call a black Uncle] Tom)

TAWN3: And even then, it is not explicitely stated in Tunnel. We gather it from things such as the color of

TAWN3: scar tissue and what not.

BPRAL22169: Yes. Glancing remarks.

TAWN3: So, it is an iffy conclusion I dare say.

DenvToday: RAH was really sly–and brilliant. We respect and admire Uncle Tom–THEN we find out he’s black.

DenvToday: Quite a jolt for the sixties reader.

BPRAL22169: Yeah. It’s all part of the Plan.

TAWN3: But that is how I like my “race”. Not an issue. Taken for granted, as in Space Cadet, and the

BPRAL22169: Oh, and if we’re doing race how about Johnny Rico in ST?

TAWN3: international nature of the cadets (and interplanet).

DenvToday: Good point!

BPRAL22169: I think Caspar van Diem was cast against type.

DJedPar: Poor Caspar is always miscast!

BPRAL22169: He didn’t make a very good Tarzan, i’ll admit.

BPRAL22169: There was a Pilipino actor — or perhaps Latino on Earth: The Final Conflict

DJedPar: Any finks in IWFNE?

TAWN3: Or the obvious use of race in Star Beast, which is explicitelty stated. That is my favorite example!

BPRAL22169: who could have done Juan Rico.

BPRAL22169: Mr. Kiku is a good character.

BPRAL22169: I can’t think of any of any of the three kinds in IWFNE

BPRAL22169: The action didn’t really lend itself to that kind of character.

TAWN3: Dr. Kiku from Africa, his Jewish “grooming for success” representative,

KultsiKN: Johann’s daughters?

DenvToday: Actually, being Argentinian doesn’t often make you “swarthy.” Most are of Italian descent, and…

TAWN3: the Hispanic cop

DenvToday: …they’re not all swarthy either.

BPRAL22169: I’ve never actually met a dark-skinned Argentinan.

TAWN3: the Japanese suburban home owner, and all written in the early post WWII years!

BPRAL22169: I would have a hard time putting Johann’s daughters in to any of the three categories —

BPRAL22169: just tiresome.

DJedPar: Yes Johann’s daughters were finky.

BPRAL22169: Perhaps my memory is too vague: how or on what did they inform?

DJedPar: Ok… tiresome.

BPRAL22169: I hate winning by default.

DJedPar: 😀

KultsiKN: Sneaky?

TAWN3: Well, if nothing else, you have high speed bodyguards in IWFNE. Kind of the Counter spy side of the

DenvToday: TMIAHM is the ultimate in racial mixing. Quite daring for 1966. Most people are a stew of mixed race

TAWN3: house.

BPRAL22169: I don’t doubt you could make a case for it — but I’d like to find something you don’t have

BPRAL22169: to argue quite so hard about.

BPRAL22169: Maybe “Bill” in CAT as a sneak.

TAWN3: Yes Denv.

BPRAL22169: or Bill The Cat. Gak!

TAWN3: TNIAHM is definitely a mixed background society.

DJedPar: That’s correct Tawn.

DenvToday: Cats simply are. They simply assume that their nature is the natural order of things.

TAWN3: Ack!

BPRAL22169: I believe that is supposed to be the sound of a cat coughing up a hairball.

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Breath Berked has a lot to account for!

DenvToday: Yes. lol

BPRAL22169: Now there’s a classic case of dialectical materialism at work: B. Kliban brings about

BPRAL22169: Breath Berked as its antithesis.

BPRAL22169: I see we are coming up to 5:00 p.m. PDT. Any last comments or remarks as we wind things up?

DenvToday: I’ve been thinking of a classic Gaham Wilson cartoon since we brought up smiley faces.

DJedPar: Hope nothing happened to AG

TAWN3: Hmmmmm, spies in the very first Juvie come to think of it.

DenvToday: A wonderfully sick one. It was Hitler and Goering zieg heiling…but instead of swastikas on their…

DenvToday: …uniforms, it was all smiley faces.

TAWN3: So, spies and finks in the beginning, and all the way to the end?

TAWN3: of the Heinlein body of work?

BPRAL22169: I can’t think of a “sneak” in Starship Troopers offhand.

BPRAL22169: or To Sail, either.

TAWN3: He was a realist who understood this was part of life, from the international level on down to the

TAWN3: small town level with the nosy neighbors!

DenvToday: Brian betrays Maureen in the end.

DenvToday: Very disappointed in Brian.

BPRAL22169: She didn’t see it that way — disappointed, yes,but not necessarily “betrayal” — at least,

BPRAL22169: nto the way it actually worked out.

DJedPar: Me too. Bad Brian.

DenvToday: We still care about Brian–but we no longer trust him.

BPRAL22169: We didn’t take up Miles and Belle in the Door Into Summer.

TAWN3: Hmmm

DavidWrightSr: Belle was definitely a ‘sneak’

TAWN3: Oh, spies in the Sun Stone short story, which name escapes me at the moment.

BPRAL22169: I think I would agree.

BPRAL22169: Sun Stone? Sounds more like Little Fuzzy.

BPRAL22169: I would dearly like to know what RAH thought of H. Beam Piper.

DavidWrightSr: Miles was a ‘fink’, but a lot of it was due to Belle drugging him.

DavidWrightSr: Bill. Me. Too. Piper is a favorite of mine.

BPRAL22169: Mine, too. Piper and Pangborn — we know what RAH thought of Pangborn.

TAWN3: No. Male and Female DR. He has hots for her. He invents Sun Stones (if I remember the name of them

TAWN3: correctly).

DavidWrightSr: Ship Stones?

DenvToday: And what about Eric Frank Russell?

TAWN3: Power companies try to wipe him out.

BPRAL22169: Shipstones?

DJedPar: Shipstones.

BPRAL22169: I think you mean the radiant sun power screen

TAWN3: He publishes the formula and losses profit but helps humanity.

DavidWrightSr: “Let there be light”?

BPRAL22169: Martin and Douglas. “Let There Be Light.”

KultsiKN: Shipdtones

TAWN3: Part of the Future History.

BPRAL22169: I think RAH introduced Shipstones in Friday.

TAWN3: That may be it I thionk. LTBL. Sounds right.

BPRAL22169: The sunscreen didn’t work out so he had to come up with a super-advanced storage battery

TAWN3: Nio. It is a short story.

KultsiKN: Definitely ‘Let There Be Light’

BPRAL22169: “Let There be Light” is in “Menace from Earth,” I believe.

TAWN3: Yes!!!!!

TAWN3: That’s it.

BPRAL22169: It got dropped from the canon for reasons nobody is quite sure of.

DavidWrightSr: I’m trying to find a copy of ‘Menace’. I want to read ‘Bootstraps’ and my wife wants

DavidWrightSr: to read ‘The Year of the Jackpot’

DenvToday: I have Menace from Earth right here…

DenvToday: It’s not in it.

DavidWrightSr: I want to do a timeline on ‘Bootstraps’ like I did for ‘Zombies’

BPRAL22169: There are two editions of Menace. one with 6 stories and one with 4

DenvToday: Mine is a Baen paperback from 1999.

TAWN3: And wouldn’t the resistance fighters in Sixth Column fall under the category of “spy” in siome cases.

DenvToday: First Baen printing was 1987

DavidWrightSr: Jeff was definitely a spy

BPRAL22169: That’s the one I’ve got.

TAWN3: Lot’s of spies in RAH/

TAWN3: Never realized how dominant an undertheme it was before!

fgherman: Have to go play cabdriver for the family

fgherman: Good night all.

DenvToday: TMFE I have has 8 stories in it.

fgherman has left the room.

DenvToday: Night fg

TAWN3: Makes you wonder how many spies are running around out there for real!

BPRAL22169: I got the book wrong — it was Man Who Sold the moon with two editions.

BPRAL22169: Also with LTBL in it.

DavidWrightSr: Fader was a spy. Did anyone mention him?

BPRAL22169: The early 60

BPRAL22169: s Signet edition of TMWSTM had only 4 stories — and no table of contents.

KultsiKN: Fader?

DavidWrightSr: From Coventry

DJedPar: Yes Fader was a good spy

BPRAL22169: The omit “Life-Line” and “Blowups Happen.”

DenvToday: Not good. It’s like omitting Adam.

BPRAL22169: And MacKinnon became a spy, too. That’s another story I consider “important.”

TAWN3: Spy in the beginning of Methuselah’s Children. The bureacrat(?) or Reporter guy that Lazarus

TAWN3: dislikes from the moment he first ses him.

KultsiKN: Politician who has the hots for Mary?

TAWN3: Yep.

BPRAL22169: We are past the 5:00 hour. Are we done?

DavidWrightSr: He wasn’t a spy.

DavidWrightSr: Just a jerk

TAWN3: That’s the one.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got the entire log.

TAWN3: Wasn’t he turning over info on the Howards?

DenvToday: Yes, it’s 8:04 EDT

TAWN3: Perhaps I remember it wrong.

BPRAL22169: You may close it when appropriate. ‘night, all.

DavidWrightSr: He didn’t know Mary was a Howard until she told him

KultsiKN: He spills the beans to Mary.

TAWN3: Ah. But he was a fink, no?

DavidWrightSr: Night Bill. Thanks for taking over the leadership

DJedPar: Good night Bill.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

TAWN3: Bye Bill.

SAcademy: Goodnight Bill

DenvToday: Good night one and all. Great discussion as usual.

DenvToday: Good night SA. As always, a great pleasure.

KultsiKN: Night, Denv

SAcademy has left the room.

TAWN3: Goodnight Denv

DJedPar: Good Night Ginny.

DenvToday: Take care all!

DavidWrightSr: Good Night Ginny

TAWN3: Good Night Ginny.

DenvToday has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Kultsi. you must be getting pretty sleepy by now

TAWN3: Anyone want to chat still?

TAWN3: What time is it there Kultsi?

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I would like to but I’ve got to close up shop.

DJedPar: Good night all. Time to feed the cats.

TAWN3: ok

DavidWrightSr: Night Denis

TAWN3: Me too. Good night everyone!

KultsiKN: Not too much, but I’m about to go as well. Nite all!

KultsiKN has left the room.

DJedPar has left the room.

TAWN3 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:09 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 08-02-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Spies, Sneaks and Finks

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 08-02-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Spies, Sneaks and Finks

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Jane wrote:

“August 2 and 4; Dave Silver returns in triumph as a guest host to discuss the topic of spies and finks. An interesting theme when compared to the recent discussion on villains. You can have a villain with honour but never a renegade…..you’ll be surprised at how many Heinlein books feature traitors, turncoats and similar low lives.”

I don’t feel particularly triumphant — I wonder where she got that idea? I keep waiting for someone else to propose topics and lead us hither and yon. It’s easy … watch me prattle on here for a bit.

I don’t know about ‘honor’ being reposed exclusively in one or the other variety, either; but let’s start this one off by simply saying Snotty Fascett was the most remarkable character I noticed in Heinlein’s first adult novel length story _”If This Goes On … “_ and Maureen Johnson Smith the most remarkable character I noted in Heinlein’s last _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_, both were certainly spies, both in ways sneaks, but so far as I can tell, only one a ‘fink.’ What was that?

Let’s talk about ‘finks’ for a second. Twain is said to have had a lot in common with Heinlein, aside from being an influential source for his writing, both Missouri boys, both wrote heavy satire from choice, both wrote for newspapers and were passionately interested in politics. The first novel of Mark Twain I read was about age six when I picked up a (probably abridged) version of _The Adventures of Tom Sawyer_ and the first significant episode in that story I noted was the time Sid finked on Tom about the black vs. white thread Aunt Polly used to sew up Tom’s collar so he couldn’t removed his shirt from his body and go swimming.

Funny thing: that was a ‘juvenile’ or at least ’tis so considered (and are there ‘spies, sneaks and finks’ in Heinlein’s juveniles to any extent — if so, why, or if not, why not?).

Is that all there is to it? Twain didn’t like ’em, so Heinlein didn’t like ’em. Missouri boys don’t like finks? How do we feel about finks today? Has there been a sea change since “Deepthroat”? Does that, if so, say something about a difference between our society and that Heinlein and Twain grew up in?

How many spies, sneaks and finks can we name in Heinlein? Once we find most of them, what generalities, if any, can we make?

I think we’ll find an amazing total of spies, sneaks and finks … let’s start at the beginning.

What can you say? As many of you as possible, this time … after all, August 4th is my birthday; and if I can host a chat on that day, you can dash your two centavos in here.

David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

David M. Silverwrote in message news:3B5D46B0.5C45A5A6@verizon.net…

 

>>I think we’ll find an amazing total of spies, sneaks and finks >… let’s start at the beginning. >>What can you say? As many of you as possible, this time … after >all, August 4th is my birthday; and if I can host a chat on that >day, you can dash your two centavos in here.

I’m currently separated from my bookshelves (long story), but from memory:

‘Good’ characters:

——————

Friday was a spy.

Manny (TMIAHM) was both renegade and spy (ok, he was a convict, but he was also a ‘trustee’ iirc).

Baslim (Citizen of the Galaxy) was a spy.

‘Bad’ characters:

—————–

Prof N.O.Brain (TNOTB) was a spy.

It’s late and I’m tired so that’ll so, hopefully a seed for a much longer list from the rest.
“David M. Silver”wrote in message news:3B5D46B0.5C45A5A6@verizon.net…
>How many spies, sneaks and finks can we name in Heinlein? Once we
>find most of them, what generalities, if any, can we make?
>>I think we’ll find an amazing total of spies, sneaks and finks
>… let’s start at the beginning.
>>What can you say? As many of you as possible, this time … after
>all, August 4th is my birthday; and if I can host a chat on that
>day, you can dash your two centavos in here.

I think Bill, from Cat, was a fink. He was a lousy, stinkin’ fink!

I’ve seen what I think of as a similarity, finks like the woman in Friday who made a mess of handling the Boss’s death (tried to take Friday’s credit card), the manager of the thingy that Gwen and Richard lived in in Cat, bank people like the one in Cat who didn’t want to let Maureen have her money and the one in Friday who wanted to make her go through filling out an application for the credit card that the upper guy had already given her…

That’s all I can think of right now, at work, with an Oracle installation going (those of you familiar with that know what I’m going through…).

[Teresa Redmond]
“David M. Silver” wrote:

>
>I don’t know about ‘honor’ being reposed exclusively in one or
>the other variety, either; but let’s start this one off by simply
>saying Snotty Fascett was the most remarkable character I noticed
>in Heinlein’s first adult novel length story _”If This Goes On
>… “_ and Maureen Johnson Smith the most remarkable character I
>noted in Heinlein’s last _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_, both were
>certainly spies, both in ways sneaks, but so far as I can tell,
>only one a ‘fink.’ What was that?

Actually, a spy can be honourable…but they aren’t seen that way. I recall a novel where a man who admits to being a spy in WW2 is shunned as being not quite quite by the upper class of the neighborhood. Yet he had saved countless lives by pretending to be a waiter and picking up on scraps of conversation as he waited tables.I don’t know how much of that was for the purposes of the plot but there’s no denying that someone who, for whatever reasons, pretends to be your friend and then knives you in the back ( literally or metaphorically) is rarely admired. Circumstances alter cases; can we agree that a wartime spy is honourable but someone who sneaks to get industrial secrets for money is not? Or how about the low end of the scale, the schoolchild who sneaks to teacher as exemplified in that Disney cartoon, “Recess”? They do it for extra privileges, motivated by pure self interest. Is that never to be admired or excused?

Going from the theoretical to the examples in Heinlein, Friday and her parents were all spies, with varying degrees of altruism governing their actions. Friday less so than Joe I’d say, as she did what Boss told her and was never really aware of the bigger picture. She was a courier not exactly a spy perhaps…..

The most loathsome have to be the renegades in Puppet Masters, the ones who were not hag ridden because the slugs had mounted them, read the slimy depths of their souls and figured that they would cooperate without needing to be possessed. As Sam says, he hates slugs but he would turn from killing a slug to burn down one of those ultimate traitors.

This theme is a recurring one; an enemy invades; the country or the planet, doesn’t matter, and some people help them instead of fighting back or at least being passively non cooperative. The short story Free Men has an example of this, Joe in FF could possibly be included too. He ‘goes over’ to the enemy but his motivations are less clear cut or rather, we find it hard to judge him out of recognition that it is his turn to be on top and he isn’t strong enough to reject the temptation.

OK, lots more I’m sure…back soon.

Jane
“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3B5DD58A.B4FEDDAB@home.com…

>
>Going from the theoretical to the examples in Heinlein, Friday and her
>parents were all spies, with varying degrees of altruism governing their
>actions. Friday less so than Joe I’d say, as she did what Boss told her
>and was never really aware of the bigger picture. She was a courier not
>exactly a spy perhaps…..
>>The most loathsome have to be the renegades in Puppet Masters, the ones
>who were not hag ridden because the slugs had mounted them, read the
>slimy depths of their souls and figured that they would cooperate
>without needing to be possessed. As Sam says, he hates slugs but he
>would turn from killing a slug to burn down one of those ultimate
>traitors.
>>This theme is a recurring one; an enemy invades; the country or the
>planet, doesn’t matter, and some people help them instead of fighting
>back or at least being passively non cooperative. The short story Free
>Men has an example of this, Joe in FF could possibly be included too. He
>’goes over’ to the enemy but his motivations are less clear cut or
>rather, we find it hard to judge him out of recognition that it is his
>turn to be on top and he isn’t strong enough to reject the temptation.

I forgot about Joe. He’s a fink, too. He really went over to the other side, and I never could figure his motivation. I really disliked his attitude towards Hugh, his condescension (i have no idea how to spell that… ) and holier than thou attitude. I didn’t think he had been treated that way by Hugh, maybe Joe felt he had been? I don’t know, I just know that when he got to be part of the crowd on top, he showed his true colors, and not just to “keep out of trouble”. He bought into their philosophy. Fink!


~teresa~

^..^ “Never try to outstubborn a cat.” Robert A. Heinlein ^..^
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ &
http://hometown.aol.com/pixelmeow/index.htm
“Blert!” quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.

“Teresa Redmond”wrote in message news:9jl7ie$ol46m$1@ID-96329.news.dfncis.de…

>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>news:3B5DD58A.B4FEDDAB@home.com…
>>>>Going from the theoretical to the examples in Heinlein, Friday and her
>>parents were all spies, with varying degrees of altruism governing their
>>actions. Friday less so than Joe I’d say, as she did what Boss told her
>>and was never really aware of the bigger picture. She was a courier not
>>exactly a spy perhaps…..
>>>>The most loathsome have to be the renegades in Puppet Masters, the ones
>>who were not hag ridden because the slugs had mounted them, read the
>>slimy depths of their souls and figured that they would cooperate
>>without needing to be possessed. As Sam says, he hates slugs but he
>>would turn from killing a slug to burn down one of those ultimate
>>traitors.
>>>>This theme is a recurring one; an enemy invades; the country or the
>>planet, doesn’t matter, and some people help them instead of fighting
>>back or at least being passively non cooperative. The short story Free
>>Men has an example of this, Joe in FF could possibly be included too. He
>>’goes over’ to the enemy but his motivations are less clear cut or
>>rather, we find it hard to judge him out of recognition that it is his
>>turn to be on top and he isn’t strong enough to reject the temptation.
>>I forgot about Joe. He’s a fink, too. He really went over to the other
>side, and I never could figure his motivation.

I think Joe figured the Black overlords WERE his side.

>I really disliked his
>attitude towards Hugh, his condescension (i have no idea how to spell
>that… ) and holier than thou attitude. I didn’t think he had been treated
>that way by Hugh, maybe Joe felt he had been? I don’t know, I just know
>that when he got to be part of the crowd on top, he showed his true colors,
>and not just to “keep out of trouble”. He bought into their philosophy.
>Fink!
>>–
>~teresa~
>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:34:51 +1200, “Julian Treadwell”

wrote:

>
>Manny (TMIAHM) was both renegade and spy

Hi, Julian, thanks for your two centavos! He was indeed; but remember the first question Wyoh asked upon Shorty’s introduction of Manny to her: “You fink for authority?” IIRC. Merely being employed as a contractor to repair computers for the Authority placed Manny, a ‘free’ inhabitant of Luna, never a convict himself, but son of convicts, in her mind, in the category of ‘fink.’

Are all government contractors (and employees) finks for government. to judge from some coments in some ‘libertarian-orientated’ thread we have, it seems some consider them so automatically; but isn’t that an unusual attitude reserved for those who hate all government activites (except possibly the most minimal — national defense, public safety and little else.); or is it unusual?

Is there any government employee position that isn’t, at one time or another, or under some circumstances however strained they may be, required to provide information to the ‘gubmit’ about the activities of its citizenry or non-citizen inhabitants? I can think of some unusual perhaps extreme circumstances: in California by refererendum following passage of recent anti-immigration laws, even teachers and health care workers were placed under that obligation.

Is Wyoh’s first inclination to consider Manny merely by association a fink for authority so unusual?

Are there other Heinlein stories in which the same first inclination is found? Or is a different preconception possessed elsewhere?

Look for example at The Star Beast. Is it the same or different? Why?


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29 (1907-88)
Lt.(jg), USN R’td

“William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote:

>
>I think Joe figured the Black overlords WERE his side.
>>

But he shouldn’t have IMO because the only reason he could think that was that they had the same skin colour as he did. Ethically, morally, by culture and society they were alien to him. Hugh and the rest were his next of kin; not Ponse and pals.

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Julian Treadwellwrote in message news:9jjj0l$qno$1@lust.ihug.co.nz…

>>David M. Silver wrote in message
>news:3B5D46B0.5C45A5A6@verizon.net…
>>>I think we’ll find an amazing total of spies, sneaks and finks
>>… let’s start at the beginning.
>>>>What can you say? As many of you as possible, this time … after
>>all, August 4th is my birthday; and if I can host a chat on that
>>day, you can dash your two centavos in here.
>>I’m currently separated from my bookshelves (long story), but from memory:
>>’Good’ characters:
>——————
>>Friday was a spy.
>Manny (TMIAHM) was both renegade and spy (ok, he was a convict, but he was
>also a ‘trustee’ iirc).

Mannie was a free “client-employee” born in Luna of transportee parents (or grandparents?). His only time in jail was when he was arrested during the trip to Terra with Prof de la Paz.

>Baslim (Citizen of the Galaxy) was a spy.
>>’Bad’ characters:
>—————–
>>Prof N.O.Brain (TNOTB) was a spy.

Do we actually know what he was? His full name is an anagram of Robert H. Heinlein.

— Mike Dworetsky

jeanette wolf wrote:

>David–You ask how people feel about finks today.
>
>Easy answer–Linda Tripp.
>
>Jeanette–who thinks RAH enjoyed sneaks as long as they kept the
>eleventh commandment (a least in his fiction–don’t know how he would
>have felt in real life, especially if he was on the wrong side of the
>”sneak”).

You may have put your finger on something essential here, Jeanette, as you often do; but let me ask the question this way: Assuming Robert did enjoy sneaks, are there any class exceptions, or general categories, shown in his writings, that reflect his disapproval of their activities on a wholesale scale?

Can we categorize the ‘wrong side’ of the “sneak”?



David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29
Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3B5EF950.669D6453@home.com…

>”William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote:
>
>>
>>I think Joe figured the Black overlords WERE his side.
>>
>>
>
>But he shouldn’t have IMO because the only reason he could think that was
that
>they had the same skin colour as he did. Ethically, morally, by culture
and
>society they were alien to him. Hugh and the rest were his next of kin;
not
>Ponse and pals.

But obviously Joe didn’t believe that way. Hugh only assumed that Joe did. See how sneaky Mr. Heinlein is. No matter how warmly Hugh felt about Joe, Joe believed himself a second class citizen.

Hugh saw nothing wrong with a society that had white people running the show. NO matter how well Joe was treated, Joe was still a second class citizen. Hugh never saw that.

>Jane
>
>
>
>–
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>
>

“David M. Silver”wrote in message news:3B5F02AF.DACE8854@verizon.net…

>jeanette wolf wrote:
>
>>David–You ask how people feel about finks today.
>>
>>Easy answer–Linda Tripp.
>>
>>Jeanette–who thinks RAH enjoyed sneaks as long as they kept the
>>eleventh commandment (a least in his fiction–don’t know how he would
>>have felt in real life, especially if he was on the wrong side of the
>>”sneak”).
>
>You may have put your finger on something essential here, Jeanette, as
>you often do; but let me ask the question this way: Assuming Robert did
>enjoy sneaks, are there any class exceptions, or general categories,
>shown in his writings, that reflect his disapproval of their activities
>on a wholesale scale?
>
>Can we categorize the ‘wrong side’ of the “sneak”?
>
>

Yes. Sneaks are on the wrong side when they spy on us. When they spy for them, they are on the dark side. The people who gave the Soviet Union the plans for the nuclear bomb are on the wrong side. The Soviets who supplied us with inside dope on the Kremlin are on the right side.


William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com

Jane Davitt wrote:

>
>”David M. Silver” wrote:
>
>>
>>I don’t know about ‘honor’ being reposed exclusively in one or
>>the other variety, either; but let’s start this one off by simply
>>saying Snotty Fascett was the most remarkable character I noticed
>>in Heinlein’s first adult novel length story _”If This Goes On
>>… “_ and Maureen Johnson Smith the most remarkable character I
>>noted in Heinlein’s last _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_, both were
>>certainly spies, both in ways sneaks, but so far as I can tell,
>>only one a ‘fink.’ What was that?
>
>Actually, a spy can be honourable…but they aren’t seen that way. I
>recall a novel where a man who admits to being a spy in WW2 is shunned
>as being not quite quite by the upper class of the neighborhood. Yet he
>had saved countless lives by pretending to be a waiter and picking up on
>scraps of conversation as he waited tables.I don’t know how much of that
>was for the purposes of the plot but there’s no denying that someone
>who, for whatever reasons, pretends to be your friend and then knives
>you in the back ( literally or metaphorically) is rarely admired.
>Circumstances alter cases; can we agree that a wartime spy is honourable
>but someone who sneaks to get industrial secrets for money is not? Or
>how about the low end of the scale, the schoolchild who sneaks to
>teacher as exemplified in that Disney cartoon, “Recess”? They do it for
>extra privileges, motivated by pure self interest. Is that never to be
>admired or excused?
>
>Going from the theoretical to the examples in Heinlein, Friday and her
>parents were all spies, with varying degrees of altruism governing their
>actions. Friday less so than Joe I’d say, as she did what Boss told her
>and was never really aware of the bigger picture. She was a courier not
>exactly a spy perhaps…..
>
>The most loathsome have to be the renegades in Puppet Masters, the ones
>who were not hag ridden because the slugs had mounted them, read the
>slimy depths of their souls and figured that they would cooperate
>without needing to be possessed. As Sam says, he hates slugs but he
>would turn from killing a slug to burn down one of those ultimate
>traitors.
>
>This theme is a recurring one; an enemy invades; the country or the
>planet, doesn’t matter, and some people help them instead of fighting
>back or at least being passively non cooperative. The short story Free
>Men has an example of this, Joe in FF could possibly be included too. He
>’goes over’ to the enemy but his motivations are less clear cut or
>rather, we find it hard to judge him out of recognition that it is his
>turn to be on top and he isn’t strong enough to reject the temptation.
>
>OK, lots more I’m sure…back soon.
>
>Jane

Hmm. Better distinguish what you mean by “spy,” since your bound here includes spies, operators (-tives), informers, Fifth-Columnists, and quislings, each of which is a rather different fish in the same kettle belly.

While Wye Knott and Prof de le Paz were revolutionaries, possibly Fifth-Columnists, Manny Davis and Mike Holmes were spies in the strict sense, saboteurs (operatives) without question, even traitors (a revolutionary who loses is always a traitor).,

Kettle Belly and Friday are operatives, the latter primarily a secure courier, though K.B. has a history elsewhere of spying and apparently has spies under his command by the time of /Friday/.

“Lazarus Long” is a spy, operative, informer when it suits /his/ purpose, occasionally a Fifth-Columnist (depending on who’s writing the article), and would kill a quisling on sight — all as he dam’ well sees fit. The point is that these names are all applied by groups, and change regarding the same person and act depeding on which group is naming them. And L.L. is (though no book called /him/ so) a “Small-Mouthed Anarchist,” fitting no group at all.


>^,,^< Pardon my driving, I’m reloading. http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/ “David M. Silver” wrote: >
>On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:34:51 +1200, “Julian Treadwell”
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Manny (TMIAHM) was both renegade and spy
>
>Hi, Julian, thanks for your two centavos! He was indeed; but remember
>the first question Wyoh asked upon Shorty’s introduction of Manny to
>her: “You fink for authority?” IIRC. Merely being employed as a
>contractor to repair computers for the Authority placed Manny, a
>’free’ inhabitant of Luna, never a convict himself, but son of
>convicts, in her mind, in the category of ‘fink.’
>
>Are all government contractors (and employees) finks for government.
>to judge from some coments in some ‘libertarian-orientated’ thread we
>have, it seems some consider them so automatically; but isn’t that an
>unusual attitude reserved for those who hate all government activites
>(except possibly the most minimal — national defense, public safety
>and little else.); or is it unusual?
>
>Is there any government employee position that isn’t, at one time or
>another, or under some circumstances however strained they may be,
>required to provide information to the ‘gubmit’ about the activities
>of its citizenry or non-citizen inhabitants? I can think of some
>unusual perhaps extreme circumstances: in California by refererendum
>following passage of recent anti-immigration laws, even teachers and
>health care workers were placed under that obligation.
>
>Is Wyoh’s first inclination to consider Manny merely by association a
>fink for authority so unusual?

No. And /correct/ — so long as he had /no other information/. Which, in that scene, she didn’t, until Manny fixed her computer with Shorty’s backing. Consider uniforms, passwords, etc., as a function of “response time,” that itself a function of just how hot the war is at the moment.

>
>Are there other Heinlein stories in which the same first inclination
>is found? Or is a different preconception possessed elsewhere?
Most of them, with most first impressions borne out. And the
“yes-no-yes” response sequence, when a putative friend fails a
shibboleth, later corrected.
>
>Look for example at The Star Beast. Is it the same or different? Why?
>
>–
>David M. Silver
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>”The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
>Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29 (1907-88)
>Lt.(jg), USN R’td


>^,,^<
Pardon my driving,
I’m reloading.
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

“David M. Silver”wrote in message news:3B5D46B0.5C45A5A6@verizon.net…

>Jane wrote:
>

(snip)

>I think we’ll find an amazing total of spies, sneaks and finks
>… let’s start at the beginning.

Spies:

Baslim (COTG)

Jeff (Sixth Column against the Pan Asians)

Sam (PM against the invaders)

Hamilton Felix (BTH in the Survivor’s Club for the govt.)

Fader McGee (Coventry for the US govt.)

Valentine Michael Smith (SIASL for the Martian Old ones)

Snotty Fassett (ITGO against the Cabal)

I’ll have to think a while about the other categories.

David Wright
“William B. Dennis 2nd”wrote in message news:ABE77.179571$mG4.84508856@news1.mntp1.il.home.com…

>
>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>news:3B5EF950.669D6453@home.com…
>>”William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I think Joe figured the Black overlords WERE his side.
>>
>>But he shouldn’t have IMO because the only reason he could think that
was
>that
>>they had the same skin colour as he did. Ethically, morally, by culture
>and
>>society they were alien to him. Hugh and the rest were his next of kin;
>not
>>Ponse and pals.

Exactly.

>But obviously Joe didn’t believe that way. Hugh only assumed that Joe did.
>See how sneaky Mr. Heinlein is. No matter how warmly Hugh felt about Joe,
>Joe believed himself a second class citizen.

“believed himself” is the key phrase. I never saw Hugh treat Joe that way.

>Hugh saw nothing wrong with a society that had white people running the
>show. NO matter how well Joe was treated, Joe was still a second class
>citizen. Hugh never saw that.

You are correct, and I did think of that, but my main thought was that Hugh never treated Joe as second class. He even trusted Joe as his “second”, in lifeboat rules!

It’s been a while since I read this one, Karen’s death really hurts to read. But from memory, I don’t recall Hugh thinking that it was wrong for the Black people to rule, as opposed to White. Hell, there are a lot of things that we think of today as natural, that may be wrong 20 years from now. Who knows? So Hugh saw nothing wrong with how things were in his lifetime: at least he didn’t treat Joe poorly. And look how Joe returns the favor. Even if Joe thought turnaround was fair play, did he have to be cruel to Hugh et al? (okay, I don’t like Duke or Grace, but that’s another story altogether…)

~teresa~

^..^ “Never try to outstubborn a cat.” Robert A. Heinlein ^..^
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ &
http://hometown.aol.com/pixelmeow/index.htm
“Blert!” quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.

“Teresa Redmond”wrote in message news:9jn8nc$abhv$1@ID-96329.news.dfncis.de…

>”William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote in message
>news:ABE77.179571$mG4.84508856@news1.mntp1.il.home.com…
>>
>>”Jane Davitt” wrote in message
>>news:3B5EF950.669D6453@home.com…
>>>”William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think Joe figured the Black overlords WERE his side.
>>>
>>>But he shouldn’t have IMO because the only reason he could think that
>was
>>that
>>>they had the same skin colour as he did. Ethically, morally, by
culture
>>and
>>>society they were alien to him. Hugh and the rest were his next of
kin;
>>not
>>>Ponse and pals.
>
>Exactly.
>
>>But obviously Joe didn’t believe that way. Hugh only assumed that Joe
did.
>>See how sneaky Mr. Heinlein is. No matter how warmly Hugh felt about
Joe,
>>Joe believed himself a second class citizen.
>
>”believed himself” is the key phrase. I never saw Hugh treat Joe that
way.
>
>>Hugh saw nothing wrong with a society that had white people running the
>>show. NO matter how well Joe was treated, Joe was still a second class
>>citizen. Hugh never saw that.
>
>You are correct, and I did think of that, but my main thought was that
Hugh
>never treated Joe as second class. He even trusted Joe as his “second”,
in
>lifeboat rules!

Maybe it never occured to Hugh that he was thinking of Joe as second class.

>
>It’s been a while since I read this one, Karen’s death really hurts to
read.
>But from memory, I don’t recall Hugh thinking that it was wrong for the
>Black people to rule, as opposed to White. Hell, there are a lot of
things
>that we think of today as natural, that may be wrong 20 years from now.
Who
>knows? So Hugh saw nothing wrong with how things were in his lifetime: at
>least he didn’t treat Joe poorly. And look how Joe returns the favor.
Even
>if Joe thought turnaround was fair play, did he have to be cruel to Hugh
et
>al? (okay, I don’t like Duke or Grace, but that’s another story
>altogether…)
>
>–
>~teresa~
>
>^..^ “Never try to outstubborn a cat.” Robert A. Heinlein ^..^
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ &
>http://hometown.aol.com/pixelmeow/index.htm
>”Blert!” quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.
>
>
>

Bill Dennis:

>>Can we categorize the ‘wrong side’ of the “sneak”?
>>
>>
>
>Yes. Sneaks are on the wrong side when they spy on us. When they spy for
>them, they are on the dark side. The people who gave the Soviet Union the
>plans for the nuclear bomb are on the wrong side. The Soviets who supplied
>us with inside dope on the Kremlin are on the right side.

Absolutely right as to the examples you give so long as “we” is “us” and “they” is “them.” But let’s take it out of the geopolitical arena and think about it in terms of Lippmans and Winchells. How about there?

[don’t you dare tell me a lippman is a better donut than a winchell, either!]


David M. Silver

http://www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

“William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote:

>
>Yes. Sneaks are on the wrong side when they spy on us. When they spy for
>them, they are on the dark side. The people who gave the Soviet Union the
>plans for the nuclear bomb are on the wrong side. The Soviets who supplied
>us with inside dope on the Kremlin are on the right side.
>

Are you serious about this Bill? I can’t decide. No smileys….and some people could really believe it but..do you?

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“Jane Davitt”wrote in message news:3B601080.E0173F44@home.com…

>”William B. Dennis 2nd” wrote:
>
>>
>>Yes. Sneaks are on the wrong side when they spy on us. When they spy for
>>them, they are on the dark side. The people who gave the Soviet Union the
>>plans for the nuclear bomb are on the wrong side. The Soviets who supplied
>>us with inside dope on the Kremlin are on the right side.
>>
>
>Are you serious about this Bill? I can’t decide. No smileys….and some people
>could really believe it but..do you?
>

Well, it is a sorta smiley.

A sneak who provides the U.S. with information on how far China is progression in missile technology is, by my subjective standards, on the good side. Contrariwise, a sneak who provides China with information about how to build missiles is on the bad side. Both these people may have the same personal qualities and may be doing it for the same reason (be it money or personal convictions), but one of these is a hero and the other isn’t. Of course, a member of the government in China may have a different opinion.

Everybody spies.

Mike Dworetskywrote in message news:8JD77.398$r8.668757@newsr2.u-net.net…

>>Manny (TMIAHM) was both renegade and spy (ok, he was a convict, but he was
>>also a ‘trustee’ iirc).
>
>Mannie was a free “client-employee” born in Luna of transportee parents (or
>grandparents?). His only time in jail was when he was arrested during the
>trip to Terra with Prof de la Paz.

Woops – thanks. Guess it’s past time I re-read that book.

>>Baslim (Citizen of the Galaxy) was a spy.
>>
>>’Bad’ characters:
>>—————–
>>
>>Prof N.O.Brain (TNOTB) was a spy.
>
>Do we actually know what he was? His full name is an anagram of Robert H.
>Heinlein.

Well, he was an alien var. Black Hat, no? That makes him a mole in my view. “William B. Dennis 2nd”wrote in message news:tUG77.179739$mG4.84653223@news1.mntp1.il.home.com…

>
>”Teresa Redmond” wrote in message
>news:9jn8nc$abhv$1@ID-96329.news.dfncis.de…

>>
>>>Hugh saw nothing wrong with a society that had white people running
the
>>>show. NO matter how well Joe was treated, Joe was still a second class
>>>citizen. Hugh never saw that.
>>
>>You are correct, and I did think of that, but my main thought was that
>Hugh
>>never treated Joe as second class. He even trusted Joe as his “second”,
>in
>>lifeboat rules!
>
>Maybe it never occured to Hugh that he was thinking of Joe as second
class.

I agree, but I still don’t think he treated Joe that way. He wasn’t condescending to him, AFAIRemember…

~teresa~

^..^ “Never try to outstubborn a cat.” Robert A. Heinlein ^..^
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ &
http://hometown.aol.com/pixelmeow/index.htm
“Blert!” quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.

David–I have been getting about eight posts a day for the last few days (your first one and mine are the only two that showed up on this thread, I only got three on the “heavy heart” thread). I figured that everybody was hiding out until the unpleasant visitors left. Then I went to goggle and found I was wrong. I find goggle hard to follow especially since there are so many post that do not interest me at the moment. I know that I am missing good stuff by ignoring posts and unfamiliar posters. I do find goggle easier for me to use than deja which took me way too long to get anything.

Anyway, regarding the “wrong side of the sneak”, I was thinking of the practical joker who can dish it out but can’t take it. I suspect that Mr. Heinlein, in real life would have enjoyed the story of an employee or junior ranked person in the military getting the best of superiors–in finding a way to sleep while on duty or removing supplies for their own use. (I am not talking about doing it in a way that lives would have been in danger–although I realize that even the most innocent action can have bad consequences). I believe that if HE were the employer or the superior officer he would not have liked it at all. He probably would have thought some person buying fancy art that turned out to be fake would be funny, but not if he was the one who bought the art.

Jeanette–who asks that anyone who wants me to follow-up on anything in the next few days, please e-mail.

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

fgherman has entered the room.

fgherman: Good evening

DavidWrightSr: Hi Felicia. you are early. I don’t expect things to get started for another 40 mins or so.

DavidWrightSr: Although there are a lot of people already online.

fgherman: I got fooled that way

DavidWrightSr: Because of the number of people?

DavidWrightSr: I always try to set up early so I can make sure I get the whole log.

fgherman: For future reference, when you announce the Chat time, please put in a time zone.

DavidWrightSr: I’m sorry. Did I forget? I apologize,

fgherman: I wasn’t sure whether to add or subtract

fgherman: I’ll come back later.

fgherman has left the room.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Dave.

AGplusone: afk getting something to drink

DavidWrightSr: Hi David.

AGplusone: tea’s in microwave … how’ve you been?

DavidWrightSr: I’ve been better.

DavidWrightSr: So, I won’t be saying much this evening. just logging

——

[Editor’s Note: Linking computer had to be rebooted so that part of log was lost]

—— part of conversation missed

AGplusone: WB Dave’s alter ego

rjjusu: Kirtland AFB is in Albuquerque, which is in the northern part of the state.

AGplusone: Okay, up by Gallup sorta?

rjjusu: Actually, due east, ~ 140 mi. I will be going through there on my way back UT in a few weeks

AGplusone: I know, it’s where Bugs Bunny takes the wrong turn when he tunnels …

AGplusone: We came down from Carson on a maneuver in ’64 through Albuguerque then Gallup

rjjusu: So far I’ve managed to avoid that, but there are a lot of Daffy Ducks on the road here…

AGplusone: an entire mechanized division

AGplusone: stopped all the traffic in Gallup

DavidWrightSr: When I saw Carson in the early 50’s it had mules and horses as I recall

AGplusone: heading for three corners near Hoover Dam

rjjusu: Sounds like you came down I-25 to ABQ then west on I-40 to Gallup.

AGplusone: It was maybe called 70-75 back then?

AGplusone: We turned at old 66

rjjusu: Might have been. 66 parallels/overlays part of I-40.

AGplusone: 2 lanes going each direction … fun!

AGplusone: sometimes only one

rjjusu: I’ll bet, since that armor really enjoys sharing the road!

AGplusone: in jeeps that were governed at 50 mph …. real fun to pass long chains of trucks dragging tanks

AGplusone: scared the heck out of some civilians coming the other way

rjjusu: Ahhh, the good ol’ days….. usually much gooder the older the days.

AGplusone: much older now

AGplusone: than gooder

AGplusone: I had a very terse converation with a deputy sheriff in Gallup. Went: “You can’t stop all this traffic

AGplusone: to which I replied: “Call your governor”

rjjusu: :-)

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

rjjusu: I saw David’s post about Poul Anderson. Very sad.

AGplusone: After a while he came back and we worked out a deal … big gap, I let his car cross 66

rjjusu: Another light goes out…..

AGplusone: Very much so. He gave us so much time that six hours he and Karen chatted with us.

rjjusu: Makes me appreciate my own mortality, when the giants are going away…

AGplusone: Took a photo of him and her outside the LA SFS Clubhouse, in front of a sign saying the one parking

AGplusone: spot out there is reserved for RAH …

rjjusu: Seems like an entire generation is passing away, which it is…..

AGplusone: Clarke’s left, but who else?

rjjusu: Bad Weather David W?

DavidWrightSr: No. Flaky machine.

rjjusu: Bradbury?

AGplusone: Younger but about that generation from our perspective

rjjusu: Yes, I guess he was in the transition from the Old Gods to the New Gods.

AGplusone: Silverberg is how old?

AGplusone: Over 65 … but I don’t know how much older

rjjusu: Must be in his late 60’s, at least.

rjjusu: Jane should be showing up momentarily

AGplusone: Got a nice letter from him and Kondo … they’re both willing to help with the drive too

ddavitt has entered the room.

AGplusone: So we got Haldeman, Benford, Sheffield Silverberg and Kondo now.

ddavitt: Hi all

AGplusone: Hi, Jane

rjjusu: I found a couple of Yoji’s books yesterday, so I’m going to be sending out a post soon.

AGplusone: Good!

ddavitt: Look forward to that

AGplusone: Anyone read Sheffield?

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny, welcome

DavidWrightSr: Laying on my back all week let me read all four of his that I have.

rjjusu: Hi Jane. The real ddavitt!

ddavitt: Hi Ginny

ddavitt: The one and only !:-)

rjjusu: Good evening Mrs Heinlein.

SAcademy: Good evening all.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane and Ginny. Are you sure Jane :-)

ddavitt: Ask me a Heinlein triv question; that should sort out an imposter

rjjusu: You spelled his name correctly, so that is a good start. 😉

DavidWrightSr: Hey that’s neat. Didn’t think of it

AGplusone: Who first said, “bug that bites me dies?

rjjusu: LL

DavidWrightSr: LL

ddavitt: Hilda

DavidWrightSr: Wait. I’m not Jane

AGplusone: What’s the date of Farmer?

ddavitt: In NOTB when Zeb shouts

ddavitt: at her

ddavitt: Er…57?

AGplusone: Date of Starman Jones?

ddavitt: Not so good on dates

DJedPar has entered the room.

ddavitt: But I have ARC right here!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Denis

ddavitt: Hi Denis

AGplusone: Hi, Denis

SAcademy: Earlier than that 1950 written

SAcademy: Hi Denis

ddavitt: They are just teasing me Ginny

ddavitt: As I was impersonated on afh last week

rjjusu: Hi Denis

ddavitt: It’s me, honest

rjjusu: We believe you, Jane.

ddavitt: I know.

SAcademy: Okay, Jane, I always bite on those things. Just a sucker.

ddavitt: Me too….

rjjusu: No, that’s a fish ……

ddavitt: We are too sweet and nice for them Ginny

SAcademy: Seems so. What do we do about it?

rjjusu: Too refined is more likely.

ddavitt: Hmm….good question

ddavitt: Hard to do much in cyber space

ddavitt: Tickles don’t translate well

rjjusu: But your presence allows the “average” attendee here to claim to be civilized.

SAcademy: Shall we have a moment of silence for Poul?

DavidWrightSr: Amen to that

ddavitt: ga

AGplusone: that would be appropriate ….

rjjusu: si

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

[Pause for a minute or so]

AGplusone: We need to think of something nice to do for Karen, if we can, now that the moment of silence is over

BPRAL22169: 2 minutes before the hour, and we have 8 people.

ddavitt: So many posts showing how he will be missed Ginny.

rjjusu: Welcome Bill…. observing a moment of silence for Poul

ddavitt: He was much loved and respected.

BPRAL22169: More appropriate to hoist a Loewenbraue

DavidWrightSr: Felicia was here earlier, said she’ll be back

AGplusone: Very much so … good, be nice to see her again.

ddavitt: Yes it will.

DavidWrightSr: She mentioned that I failed to put the time zone on my notice. mea culpa

SAcademy: Yes, I wonder whether it’s possible to send them to Karen and Astrid?

rjjusu: No reason why not

ddavitt: I have seen them all over the net

ddavitt: Mybe could go to Google and select some of them?

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Some are from people who actually met or knew Poul

BPRAL22169: Might be a good project — collect the lamentations and memorializations into a file for them.

ddavitt: Hi Will

BPRAL22169: Poul was very accessible.

SAcademy: Good idea. But will they fit on a page?

ddavitt: No reason why not

BPRAL22169: Very big page.

ddavitt: Some are just one liners

rjjusu: Maybe put them on a web site – an annex on the THS webpage?

geeairmoe2: Howdy, all.

AGplusone: Hi, Will.

SAcademy: I’m thinking of how broad the lines are on Google

DavidWrightSr: Someone did that for Robert and edited it. I have a big notebook full of them

AGplusone: We’re having a discussion about Poul Anderson’

ddavitt: I would like to see that Dave

ddavitt: Or is it not online?

DavidWrightSr: I’ll try to find out where I got it. It’s been a couple of years since I found it

AGplusone: But, …. scheduled tonight is a discussion about “spies, sneaks, and finks … etc.” in RAH .

AGplusone: So, we’ll start in about three minutes, everyone ….

ddavitt: Some good posts about it…

ddavitt: got submerged under the silliness

SAcademy: The only one I can think of is Kettle Belly Baldwin

ddavitt: The Kopter King!

AGplusone: I was intrigued by something Jeanette Wolfe posted …. the thought that RAH would have enjoyed

AGplusone: people beating the system, more or less, IIRC, as she put it.

ddavitt: An element of that runs through the books

DavidWrightSr: I am going to be AFK for the most part. I’ll just be getting up to save the log periodically.

ddavitt: OK Dave

geeairmoe2: Just dropped in to Groucho Marx: “Hello, I must be going.” Relatives visiting.

ddavitt: I will leave when David gets back from the airport

AGplusone: Brings to mind “The Thirteenth Commandant” … but under what circumstances do you think RAH would

AGplusone: enjoyed people beating the system?

ddavitt: Just returning a relative

rjjusu: lot of that going around…. G

AGplusone: anyone?

rjjusu: When the system doesn’t “make sense”

ddavitt: If it was a bureaucratic rule

ddavitt: Hatred of petty red tape

AGplusone: This is the author, remember, who was proud to have graduated from a system where people were

ddavitt: Rules for the sake of it

AGplusone: cashiered over stealing a pair of stockings.

geeairmoe2: I may be back later.

BPRAL22169: But that wasn’t a matter of “rules” — it was a matter of honor.

SAcademy: Well, there’s Friday

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

AGplusone: As he told Campbell in that December ’41 letter

rjjusu: The point to remember is that those rules were often generated for a good reason

AGplusone: Maybe it was ‘rules’ Bill, if they are for the purpose of Honor5

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

rjjusu: but then the circumstances changed but the rules didn’t

AGplusone: Hi, Jim.

ddavitt: Hi Jim.

BPRAL22169: The rules were incidental; the honor was the important thing.

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening :-)

SAcademy: Good evening Jim

BPRAL22169: One neither does nor refrains from doing things because of rules.

AGplusone: E.g., an officer doesn’t lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate the presence of anyone who does …

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello Ginny

BPRAL22169: One does or refrains because they belong to or don’t belong in the strategy you’re pursuing.

ddavitt: But was he proud of that? David lamb didn’t seem to be

rjjusu: There is a very good example of this that I am sure that the ex-military types would appreciate.

AGplusone: I think he was intensely proud of it, Jane. Doesn’t he tell the middies in that Forrestal

AGplusone: lecture you just bought that he always considered himself a Navy officer just in disagreement

AGplusone: with the doctors over whether he was fit for duty?

AGplusone: [great tape, btw, so much more in it than the part in Extended U]

ddavitt: Haven’t had chance to listen yet

ddavitt: Looking forward to it

AGplusone: What situation, Randy, would an officer enjoy seeing someone beat the system?

AGplusone: Or, when might an officer be duty bound to see that someone beats the system?

NuclearWasteUSN: What do you mean by beating the system?

AGplusone: Suppose you, a Petty Officer were before a courts martial?

ddavitt: David lamb beat it in spades but was always honourable by their rules

AGplusone: Is there a situation there where an officer might be duty bound to see you beat it?

rjjusu: When the rules are applied “too strictly” – only to follow form instead of function

NuclearWasteUSN: I can think of one.

AGplusone: Which is?

NuclearWasteUSN: Striking a superior officer.

SAcademy: Senior officer, please.

AGplusone: Not that exactly … isn’t there an officer who is duty bound to see that you, as a defendant in a

rjjusu: Under which circumstances, Jim?

AGplusone: court martial does indeed beat the system?

NuclearWasteUSN: It is situational though. He was going to do something that would endanger the ship. (Open a red ta

ddavitt: But does this come under spies, finks etc? Aren’t they a special case? What rules apply that they

ddavitt: might be considered to transgress?

NuclearWasteUSN: tagged valve)

AGplusone: Isn

BPRAL22169: He’s talking about lawyers — that qualifies as “finks,” I believe.

BPRAL22169: (oops, did I say that out loud?)

ddavitt: Refrain from comment

AGplusone: Isn’t the officer you select to defend you duty bound to see that just that happens?

AGplusone: rjjusu: so we are going to be insulting finks this evening, Bill?

ddavitt: libby and the explosive charge situation you mean Jim?

BPRAL22169: Same as the civilian bar

ddavitt: In Misfit

NuclearWasteUSN: Same thing, yes Jane.

AGplusone: Do you happen to know, Ginny, whether Robert ever served as defense counsel in a CourtsMartial?

BPRAL22169: No, the defending officer is duty-bound to uphold the system — and give you the best

BPRAL22169: defense available under the system.

AGplusone: NOOOOO!

AGplusone: He’s duty bound to get you off.

BPRAL22169: Nope.

AGplusone: If he can, legally.

ddavitt: Even if you are guilty?

SAcademy: Yes, he defended a lot of guilty men. There’s a story about that.

rjjusu: Not under UCMJ

BPRAL22169: If he can, legally, yes.

AGplusone: Uphold the system means nothing

ddavitt: ga Ginny

BPRAL22169: There is a whole code of what he can and cannot do — and that’s the system.

BPRAL22169: A military counsel does not have some of the options a civilian counselor has, I believe.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

rjjusu: Correct, Bill

AGplusone: ‘uphold’ means nothing. He’s bound to get you off if he can by any legal means.

AGplusone: Even if you’re guilty as sin

BPRAL22169: But that “legal means” IS the system.

SAcademy: He was inspecting the brig one day, when he noticed his name on a list with a lot of stars after it.

AGplusone: go on, Ginny ….

ddavitt: Hi Sage

NuclearWasteUSN: I believe Military counsel is constrained to tell the whole truth, not just those parts of it that ref

NuclearWasteUSN: reflect well upon his client.

AGplusone: NO>

SAcademy: So he asked about it, and each nname and star meant he’d got one guilty man off. So he took his erase

AGplusone: Military counsel as defense counsel has no duty to tell the whole truth unless he’s stupid enough to

AGplusone: let himself be called to the stand

SAcademy: and erased his name, and that was the end of his legal practice.

AGplusone: But do you happen to know how many defendants he got off, Ginny?

BPRAL22169: Thank you, Ginny. I guess it doesn’t do to get that kind of a “rep.”

ddavitt: Now that’s more honourable than what you suggest AG

AGplusone: before he erased himself …

ddavitt: Hiding the truth to get a guilty man off is finky all right

SAcademy: He was forever getting asked to defend someone before he erased his name.

BPRAL22169: How about the Sons of the Bird as a race of finks?

AGplusone: that what the system is based on, Jane. The prosecution is put to the burden of proving it

ddavitt: Because he was a good debator type?

ddavitt: It’s a game, that’s all.

AGplusone: I was able, recently, to read a letter in which he said he won every case he was assigned

SAcademy: Well, yes, Jane.

ddavitt: makes sense.

AGplusone: as defense counsel, except one, and in every case, his client was guilty

ddavitt: He was very persuasive as a writer!

SAcademy: Evening Sage.

BPRAL22169: And he had great sincerity in his personal presentation.

ddavitt: Sons seemed to be outside the system

ddavitt: have to be human.

NuclearWasteUSN: And this was before the changes in interpretation made being guilty easier.

AGplusone: So, when Jeanette said she felt that RAH would enjoy seeing someone beat the system, I thought of this

AGplusone: but only this ….

AGplusone: ‘within a system’ but beating the system ….

ddavitt: I think she meant something else…have to ask her

ddavitt: before saturday maybe

BPRAL22169: I think he thought you could save someone if they weren’t broken — but after their broken,

ddavitt: She seems to have had trouble getting posts

BPRAL22169: that’s it.

rjjusu: Here is a question – since the whole concept of finks, traitors, etc. depends on what side you are on.

AGplusone: I think she may have meant something else too …

rjjusu: Is debating the validity of ones choice of actions the same as debating the difference

SageMerlin: Good evening

ddavitt: As was pointed out on afh

rjjusu: between situational ethics and “fixed” ethics?

NuclearWasteUSN: In my experience with Aviators, they take almost a childlike glory in beating the system in minor ways

ddavitt: Not sure about that Randy.

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Do you mean that there are somethings everyone can agree is sneaky?

rjjusu: If the British had won, would Benedict Arnold have been a hero and Washington a traitor?

ddavitt: Hi felicia

SAcademy: Hello, Felicia.

NuclearWasteUSN: Winner write history.

ddavitt: Probably to some

rjjusu: I think so, Jane.

SageMerlin: You mean the British lost?

AGplusone: Benedict Arnold was a hero. British retired him in honor.

ddavitt: But bottom line is betrayal

fgherman: Hello All

ddavitt: A spy has given loyalties to one side

NuclearWasteUSN: However, would Washington’s case against the crown and absentee landlords still have been valid?

ddavitt: All he does as a spy is OK

ddavitt: If he becomes a double agent THEN he is a fink

rjjusu: When is a violation of trust acceptable? That, I think, might begin to answer the question.

ddavitt: Greater good?

SAcademy: Isn’t there a monument to Benedict Arnold’s leg? He lost it in battle.

AGplusone: At Saratoga

ddavitt: Santa Anna did too…careless chaps

rjjusu: Surely someone would have found it by now???

NuclearWasteUSN: Good question Randy.

DJedPar: There’s a monument to Benedict Arnold in Maine.

SAcademy: From the French and Indian waar?

DJedPar: I think so.

BPRAL22169: I didn’t know Santa Anna was at Saratoga!

AGplusone: Arnold had a glorious career … no, he invaded Canada in 77 … up to when he listened to his

AGplusone: wife and choose to follow her politics

ddavitt: But have to consider that people change their minds too.

SageMerlin: Actually, the Americans captured Santa Anna’s leg…only to find out that he owned a dozen of them.

NuclearWasteUSN: Violation of a trust is acceptable in the case of a soldier given an illegal order.

SAcademy: Did anyone ever read his story of taking the troops up to Montreal? Or was it Quebec?

SageMerlin: Young man named Grant did the deed itself as I recall.

AGplusone: I have …

ddavitt: Is it worse to stay in a terrorist group when you’ve come to see the error of your ways or to leave it

AGplusone: Forget the name of the other general in that force …

SAcademy: Kenneth Roberts, I think.

AGplusone: Could be … he’d been a British officer as well. A professional.

AGplusone: In any event, was Arnold a situation of ‘situational ethics’ Randy?

AGplusone: Discounting the gossip that said the real reason he went along with his wife’s family was jealosy

AGplusone: over Greene getting the credit for Saratoga

rjjusu: Guess we get to the lawyerly concept of divining “intent”

ddavitt: brb

AGplusone: Can’t do that, can you, really, unless the intender tells you what it was and tells the truth?

rjjusu: I think there are several cases that have to be considered:

rjjusu: Those that take a course of action because they believe it to be the right thing to do.

rjjusu: The honorable traitor, fink, etc.

rjjusu: Those that take a course of action because of personal gain.

rjjusu: The greedy traitor whose only guideline is what benefits himself.

rjjusu: Those that change with the wind, or are led lemming like by those around them

rjjusu: The unprincipled traitor

BPRAL22169: I’m thinking of the Snotty Fassett character in ITGO — he had a predisposition of character.

AGplusone: How do we know? Because Lyle didn’t like him?

SageMerlin: All very nicely put, but it’s really a matter of who wins, isn’t it? If the British had won,

NuclearWasteUSN: Based upon his own statements.

SageMerlin: Benedict Arnold would have been George Washington

BPRAL22169: I think both Zeb and John Lyle discussed him at one point.

NuclearWasteUSN: I hate to go, this is a wonderful topic, but I have a friend who just hit a deer. They seem to be out

AGplusone: I think they did. They didn’t like him, but because they held that opinion, how do we really know …

NuclearWasteUSN: in force this summer

BPRAL22169: But there is the “damaged goods” type of traitor/sneak/fink, as well.

NuclearWasteUSN: Please send me the log!

SageMerlin: At least salvage the tenderloin

AGplusone: Saw one yesterday on 101 south

NuclearWasteUSN: Backstraps as well.

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I guess that is a “collaborator” type.

BPRAL22169: Perhaps it is people to whom motivations of honor, etc., are simply “invisible.”

SAcademy: David W. did you start a log?

rjjusu has left the room.

BPRAL22169: He may be AFK; he implied that he is keeping the log, Ginny.

rjjusu has entered the room.

AGplusone: I keep one …

ddavitt: back.

SAcademy: Thanks I’d like a copy. It’s going too fast for me.

AGplusone: ‘kay

rjjusu: Godless base phone systems…..

AGplusone: damaged goods types, such as whom?

maikoshT: I’m keeping the log

BPRAL22169: I was thinking specifically of Snotty Fassett — people who were morally crippled from the start

AGplusone: I’ll accept that by inference on his nickname …

rjjusu: So that makes you the “Log Lady”, in a Twin peaks sort of way ….

BPRAL22169: the collabos in 6th Column, etc.

BPRAL22169: Well, it’s true, the log does know…

DenvToday has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: (I have about 44 hours of Twin Peaks on tape)

SageMerlin: How lucky for you. What’s is Twin Peaks?

DenvToday: Good evening everybody!

SAcademy: Whatever for, Bill?

rjjusu: Hi, Denv.

ddavitt: Hi Denv

BPRAL22169: On the other hand, some people who look like damaged goods turn out to be ok — like the

AGplusone: as they are portrayed, what makes them any different from Mannie in Moon before he meets Wyoh and

DenvToday: Good to see you.

AGplusone: Shorty gets killed?

BPRAL22169: twerp in the helicopter in FitS

SAcademy: Twin Peaks was a TV show on the West coast.

ddavitt: But what was so bad about Snotty?

SageMerlin: Oh, Thanks.

BPRAL22169: Snotty Fassett was an internal spy.

ddavitt: He mighthave been truly devout

BPRAL22169: It was one of the very best things ever put on television —

David Lynch directed.

AGplusone: For all we know he was heroic … Herbert Philbrick, from I Led Three Lives

ddavitt: Weeding out the disloyal Cabal

ddavitt: If, like Lyle, he truly beleived in the Prophet

AGplusone: “Citizen, Communist, Counter-spy”

ddavitt: Then he was on the side of the angels

BPRAL22169: No, they are pretty clear that Snotty did what he did because he liked it. It may hav ebeen

rjjusu: So you are proposing that Lyle and Snotty were two sides of the same coin?

BPRAL22169: only their opinion, but it WAS their opinion, and we don’t have better evidence.

ddavitt: Is it what we think of ourselves that is really important, the only standard that can apply?

BPRAL22169: No. SF was morally corrupt.

maikoshT: Zeb called him an ‘agent provocateur’. He threw the first rock in stoning the ‘pariah’

AGplusone: Let’s look at the MI example for a moment, please …. from Troopers.

ddavitt: Prove it

BPRAL22169: I can’t “prove’ it — it’s a ‘given” in the story.

ddavitt: The pariah was a heathen, doomed to hell

ddavitt: ( I’m devil’s advocate here btw!)

AGplusone: They all must operate from an ethical base … H & MP, and if in OCS it’s discovered they don’t,

BPRAL22169: Dialectical Davitt. That’s you.

ddavitt: A story in the first person is always suspect

ddavitt: Hmm..has a ring to it…

AGplusone: they face a board to see whether they are even allowed to remain as Privates, no matter

ddavitt: Look at Job

SageMerlin: I’ve always thought that about Genesis

AGplusone: how good Troopers they may be.

rjjusu: Yes, David, but the assumption there is that they have put ethics on the same basis …

BPRAL22169: But, to a certain extent, the board can only examine how well they have mastered the

Reilloc has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: dialectics of their society.

rjjusu: as other mathematical sciences.

ddavitt: Alex thinks he’s so great..we go along with it and get smacked in the face by his intolerance.

ddavitt: Puts all he said in a whole new light

BPRAL22169: That was a masterful stroke in JOB.

BPRAL22169: RAH must have had a lot of fun with that.

ddavitt: I was gob smacked as we say in t’ North

ddavitt: I read it and puzzled over it for ages…couldn’t get past the idea that he was narrator and therfore

ddavitt: hero

SAcademy: I take it that Canadians don’t speak English, Jane?

ddavitt: But also a total jerk

BPRAL22169: But there are a lot of those “wait a minute, now!” moments in RAH.

ddavitt: Not proper English Ginny

BPRAL22169: Stranger has several of them.

ddavitt: But I can translate for all of you

DJedPar: Headmaster Howe was quite a fink in Red Planet. Wasn’t he? Thanks, Jane.

ddavitt: That is North of UK

BPRAL22169: Oooh — a Canadian to English dictionary, now there’s material for a religious conversion!

SAcademy: Do please.

rjjusu: That’s great, Jane. eh?

ddavitt: Gob smacked is stunned, taken aback

ddavitt: gob is mouth

ddavitt: hit in the face by it

ddavitt: Howe was yes

ddavitt: He had a duty to the students

ddavitt: He put his employer first

Dehede03 has entered the room.

ddavitt: And his own interests then took over even that

DJedPar: Look what he wanted to do to Willys..

ddavitt: loyalty

ddavitt: Hi Ron

Dehede03: Howdy Y’all

AGplusone: Howe falls into the category of always looking for his own self-interest

BPRAL22169: Yo, Famous Author.

Dehede03: Howdy, Jane

ddavitt: Why? What have you written Ron?

SAcademy: Hello, Ron

Dehede03: Infamous, Bill??

Dehede03: Hi, Ginny.

ddavitt: That sounds tactless…duh!

BPRAL22169: You can’t be infamous until you publish. But you can be famous before you publish.

Dehede03: The first draft of my first attempt at a novel.

ddavitt: Great!

fgherman: There’s always a first one

SageMerlin: Like that first drink

rjjusu: I suspect that if we were in a H&MP class, we would all be failing…

AGplusone: But we don’t know for certain that Fascett always put his own self-interest first, do we?

ddavitt: Why?

BPRAL22169: No, it’s novels all the way down…

Dehede03: No one can say whether it will be successful but I won’t be embarrassed.

rjjusu: since we are not “proving” our positions.

ddavitt: I look forward to reading it

Dehede03: Thank you.

ddavitt: What are we saying anyway?

Dehede03: ??

ddavitt: Have we decided on a ground rule definition yet?

ddavitt: For a spy/fink

AGplusone: I thought we were on Randy’s definition, Jane?

ddavitt: What IS a fink anyhow?

rjjusu: We haven’t agreed on terms – how can we determine if what we are saying means anything

SageMerlin: Fink is a labor term

ddavitt: Oh, a scab?

BPRAL22169: There are people who are so crooked they can’t even follow their own interests.

SageMerlin: Turn of the century unionists used it to describe someone who ratted out the labor movement to the

SageMerlin: the bosses

AGplusone: No. Fink is a spy. A scab is someone who crosses the line.

ddavitt: scab is someone who crosses picket line of a strike

SageMerlin: Wrong David

BPRAL22169: I have met more of these types than ever I wanted to.

AGplusone: He’s a spy in that he volunteers to make himself one … not employed to be one.

SageMerlin: Okay, I will accept that.

BPRAL22169: The usages of “fink” I have seen were informing — telling the strikebusters of strategy.

ddavitt: Are we agreed about the renegades in PM being true finks?

AGplusone: Not a Pinkerton for example employed to infiltrate

ddavitt: Working voluntarily for the slugs

AGplusone: Like Dashiel Hammett

SageMerlin: PM ?????????

ddavitt: Against their own kind

SageMerlin: Puppet Masters

ddavitt: Puppet masters

BPRAL22169: Puppet Masters

ddavitt: sorry

SageMerlin: I haven’t been around much.

ddavitt: get used to acronyms on afh

ddavitt: too lazy to type it all out

rjjusu: I think we are using several words that have different denotations, but lumping them all

BPRAL22169: Sage IS an acronym

AGplusone: The renegades in PM who are not ‘hosted’ of course, Jane?

ddavitt: yes

rjjusu: together from a conotation standpoint

SageMerlin: No, its not.

ddavitt: slugs ride them, realsie they’re scum, get off and let them roam free

SageMerlin: Its an herb

AGplusone: We never really see one of those, do we, just hear about them.

BPRAL22169: What’s the word for that?

BPRAL22169: You’re right —

ddavitt: Sam sees one and kills him later

ddavitt: Wrestling host

ddavitt: Not in the cut version; very gory bit

BPRAL22169: *sigh*

AGplusone: Is this renegade a bit like “Bill” in Walks Through Walls?

BPRAL22169: Hmmm– you know, it occurs to me that the same kind of treatment you gave Red Planet

AGplusone: a true fink

ddavitt: No; we don’t know enough about Bill

BPRAL22169: might be very useful in re PM.

ddavitt: I started it Bill; lauren arrived

ddavitt: I have about 3 pages of notes

AGplusone: We know he returns kindness and help with disloyalty

BPRAL22169: Ah. Yes, that would interrupt it, wouldn’t it?

BPRAL22169: But I have the impression CAT’s Bill was simply weak.

ddavitt: But isn’t he working for scene changers/ THEY have his prime loyalty

AGplusone: But he was in their corner from the first moment wasn’t he …? The zip gun?

ddavitt: He is a Black hat

ddavitt: Why should the condescension of Richard and the bossiness of Gwen make him like them?

SAcademy: Sorry people, I have to get to bed. I’m falling asleep.

SAcademy: Nite.

ddavitt: Night Ginny. Sleep well

BPRAL22169: I had the impression he was just a morally weak human used by the adversaries because of

AGplusone: So he’s a POW who is coerced into giving an informal parole … and seizes the chance to escape

fgherman: Good night Ginny

rjjusu: Good night and pleasant dreams, Ginny.

BPRAL22169: his weakness.

SAcademy has left the room.

Dehede03: Wasn’t Bill also careless of hygene as the alien ridden were in PM?

BPRAL22169: Good night, Ginny

Dehede03: Night, Ginny

ddavitt: I am totally confused by cat

ddavitt: I don’t know who the enemy is and what their motives are

BPRAL22169: I think we are supposed to be.

ddavitt: seem to have moved beyond Black hats of Number

rjjusu: Foreshadowing of what is to come in NOTB?

ddavitt: So i can’t judge Bill

ddavitt: No; written after

ddavitt: And set after too

rjjusu: Aftershadowing????

ddavitt: Bill may not be human

BPRAL22169: I get best results thinking about CAT as an episode in a longer work

ddavitt: Umm…my mistake, grovel

AGplusone: But isn’t Bill just a simple portrayal of a weak human trapped by circumstances

AGplusone: Rosenstein and Guilderstern?

SageMerlin: Is there anyone who isn’t

ddavitt: He is in the attack near the end isn’t he?

SageMerlin: a weak human trapped by circumstances

BPRAL22169: Remember the subtitle of CAT; he may be there for contrast with the main characters.

SageMerlin: Heroes are just those who couldn’t get out of the line of fire afterward

AGplusone: A Comedy of Manners

SageMerlin: fast enough

Dehede03: David, isn’t he also the example of a caged animal that refuses to leave his cage?

ddavitt: What does that mean exactly?

BPRAL22169: What were Bill’s manners; what were theirs.

ddavitt: He was common; they were upper class…but it goes deeper than class

SageMerlin: Actually, Bill is one of the most mysterious characters in any Heinlein novel.

ddavitt: It was a whole difference in world view

ddavitt: He was a socialsit

ddavitt: socialist even..

BPRAL22169: Heinlein is writing as an American; there is no “upper class” and “common” distinction.

ddavitt: They didn’t like that

SageMerlin: Precisely because he snoookers Richard and Gwen all the way.

Dehede03: Yes, when he has the chance to leave his cage he refuses the chance.

AGplusone: I agree, Sage: you keep thinking he’s going to develop into someone on “our” side, but why should he?

rjjusu: So we get back to perspective again. What one sees depends on where one stands

ddavitt: But I am an Englsih reader; I have to use my own world view

BPRAL22169: At least, not in the same way.

SageMerlin: The point is that he was never on their side….he was a very subtle agent

ddavitt: I agree with that randy

AGplusone: Why? I can see Benedict Arnold as a hero in his own mind, to his family.

ddavitt: To the BH’s, Bill may have been on hazardous undercover duty

BPRAL22169: One is always a hero when one is certaint hat one has followed his conscience.

ddavitt: Or, a weakling they subverted ..who knows?

SageMerlin: Which goes back to what I said before…..whether you are a fink or not depends on which side wins

ddavitt: No!

ddavitt: Depends on what you honestly think

SageMerlin: YES

rjjusu: but remember the comment about a “foolish consistency” …

AGplusone: If RAH says, in the Forrestal lecture, that first order of duty is to family, then outward, how can

AGplusone: you fault Arnold?

SageMerlin: His only fault was losing

AGplusone: He marries into them, and then changes his allegiance to that which they favor

ddavitt: Not the betrayal?

SageMerlin: No, that’s our perception, not his

ddavitt: Are you allowed to chage allegiance?

ddavitt: I think you are

rjjusu: But WHY the betrayal?

AGplusone: Why not: Colonel Washington did.

SageMerlin: No traitor sees himself as anything but a patriot.

ddavitt: But you must not use prior knowledge against former allies

SageMerlin: with a different allegiance

SageMerlin: Who says?

ddavitt: Though that may be impossible….

AGplusone: He became General Washinton, and won, and, therefore, a hero. Now R E Lee is a slightly

AGplusone: different story. He lost, and therefore not a hero.

SageMerlin: I think the Civil War is dangerous territory for this discussion

AGplusone: Washington used prior knowledge. He used everything he’d learned as a British officer

rjjusu: But he is a principled “traitor”, and one therefore worthy of respect.

SageMerlin: Precisely because both sides were both right and wrong at the same time

SageMerlin: Only because he won

ddavitt: I still don’t think eventual victory can whitewash actions Sage

SageMerlin: Of course it does, results count. Intentions are lost in the haze of history

rjjusu: So, Jane’s comment is getting to the heart of the matter. Do the ends justify the means?

Dehede03: Because Washington pitched a fit for his rights as an Englishman first

rjjusu: Or do the means “color” the ends?

rjjusu: Said color fading with time and distance.

Dehede03: So did the Revolutionists as a group

BPRAL22169: I don’t think Heinlein was at all equivocal on that point.

SageMerlin: Let’s take a man who is raised most in Germany, an upper class patrician, who in the end pitches his

SageMerlin: lot with the British….and loses his life.

SageMerlin: The British extol him as a patriot….and the Germans hate his guts. Who’s right and who’s wrong?

SageMerlin: He pays the ultimate prices, plays the great game, sets the stage for the invasion of Europe, all by

SageMerlin: trading off his knowledge of the German character.

ddavitt: I don’t know…but it shouldn;t change according to the result of the war

ddavitt: It is an absolute

SageMerlin: The man was Leslie Howard.

rjjusu: Is the branding of the action based on what one does and why, or the end results?

SageMerlin: If the Germans had won, Howard would be regarded as a traitor because he was raised among them and

ddavitt: Ends justify the means…?

BPRAL22169: I don’t know — it seems to me there is a lot more “wiggle room” than that interpretation

ddavitt: Bit dodgy that

SageMerlin: they consequently felt they had a right to expect loyalty from him…

BPRAL22169: allows, Sage — RELee is not goign to be considered a traitor i nthe judgment of history

ddavitt: But who writes history?

BPRAL22169: We do occasionally respect a principled resistance to our aims.

SageMerlin: The Civil War is just about the only war in which the losers remain heros

ddavitt: It is individuals with opinions

AGplusone: You can argue they changed the rules on RELee …. but they still took Arlington away from him

Dehede03: But R. E. Lee went with his homeland.

BPRAL22169: Yes — but it shatters your model.

SageMerlin: But the CW shatters just about every model

Dehede03: And I believe Lee wrestled with his decision publicly before hand.

BPRAL22169: So there are important exceptions — my point.

AGplusone: and never let him vote again, because, simplistically, he was an oath breaker

SageMerlin: The men who led the armies of both sides had grown up as friends, West Point classmates, students of

SageMerlin: Winfield Scott.

BPRAL22169: That

SageMerlin: Scott told him he was making the biggest mistake of his life, but they remained friends nonetheless.

BPRAL22169: is true — happens quite a lot in civil wars. Sulla trained with marius.

Dehede03: Yes, and that fact is the means by which Grant defeated Lee

BPRAL22169: There are “honorable enemies” throughout history.

AGplusone: Difference between him and Arnold was he resigned publicly and joined the Army of Northern Virginia

AGplusone: and Arnold had to run because they found out what he was doing.

SageMerlin: So if you declare yourself openly, you can be a good guy while you are being a bad gjy

AGplusone: But they both broke an oath …

Dehede03: Yes, it reminds me of the old southern expression, “Sir, declare yourself.’

SageMerlin: guy….but if you operate covertly, you are a traitor.

SageMerlin: I can buy that.

SageMerlin: Under this definition, Bill is as traitor because he never declares himself.

Dehede03: As was Arnold

ddavitt: spies can’t go around blowing their cover though

AGplusone: Honorable men have been covert operators … the one in Sixth Column who stays under cover

ddavitt: kind of defeats the purpose

AGplusone: as a private in the PanAm Army

ddavitt: Yes, good example

AGplusone: PanAsian

BPRAL22169: There were very few honorable men as spies in Heinlein — the Japanese undercover officer

ddavitt: Suppose he had to kill an American to keep cover going?

SageMerlin: But he’s not one of them….they just think he is

Dehede03: But a true spy accepts his position going in

ddavitt: Is that an honourable action?

BPRAL22169: in 6th Col. And another in “Magic, inc.,” I think. Any more?

AGplusone: He probably did

SageMerlin: It has happened more than once, Jane

ddavitt: greater good I suppose

rjjusu: That’s the problem with ethical absolutes –

rjjusu: they can change if circumstances change enough to make the assumptions invalid

ddavitt: cabal had men in the Prophet’s organisation

AGplusone: “I vas yust followink orders”

BPRAL22169: RAH may not have been comfortable with the idea, though he may have thought it pragmatically

BPRAL22169: necessary.

BPRAL22169: The honorable man is a danger to the state because he follows a higher law.

BPRAL22169: and as Augustine tells us: “An unjust law is no law at all.”

ddavitt: And to you if he decides you’re not worthy

AGplusone: Consider this: when RAH graduated, it was ’29, prohibition in full swing, and under the volstead

BPRAL22169: Very good point.

AGplusone: act it was what: a misdemeanor to possess alcohol?

Dehede03: Yet everything including drugs were available within one block of his JC in Kansas City.

AGplusone: Do you think the Class of ’29 were teetotal?

Dehede03: hard drugs

BPRAL22169: Civil disobedience ‘r’ us.

AGplusone: Do you think the Navy served alcohol about ships then?

fgherman: Good night all, bed calls.

fgherman has left the room.

ddavitt: Night Felicia

AGplusone: Nite, felicia

Dehede03: not aboard ship

ddavitt: no rum ration?

ddavitt:

Dehede03: I believe that was gone years earlier

AGplusone: He writes that he was invited aboard a battleship in ’29 where the officers mess did exactly that.

BPRAL22169: No, I think the rum ration was not discontinued until the late 90’s.

AGplusone: Wine and hard liquor with dinner

Dehede03: I was served wine in the officer’s mess aboard a land station in 57

BPRAL22169: Well — there is also the fact that naval officers considered themselves aristos above the law.

SageMerlin: Ah, remember, folks, we’re talking about the navy….three miles out and the laws change

AGplusone: In Pearl?

BPRAL22169: Very good point, Sage.

SageMerlin: You can be three miles off Pearl

SageMerlin: Its a big ocean

ddavitt: Yes, not in US territorial waters

AGplusone: This was a dinner when the ships were tied up and inviting officers of other ships aboard

SageMerlin: Besides, half the navy is always visiting some foreign port or other.

BPRAL22169: Oh, a little navigation error in the Pearl Harbor OC?

ddavitt: Would the laws still count if the captain didn’t agree with them?

SageMerlin: Besides, it was never illegal in Hawaii.

Dehede03: There is liquor aboard all ships but not legally

ddavitt: state, not federal law?

BPRAL22169: It was a Constitutional Amendment.

SageMerlin: Prohibition did not affect protectorates

AGplusone: There is liquor aboard all ships in officer cabins and unless they are stupid enough to drink on duty

SageMerlin: Still didn’t affect Hawaii.

ddavitt: I don’t know much about it. We British were never that dumb

AGplusone: or leave it out when the Captain or XO comes around, it’s ignored

Dehede03: We have some of the most innovative bootleggers in the world brewing aboard our ships

BPRAL22169: Oh, there is so MUCH that could be said about that . . .

SageMerlin: Unless its the Captain’s brand

AGplusone: And in the chief’s quarters ….

ddavitt: Heh, heh…

SageMerlin: Not to mention the Chef’s quarters

Dehede03: But never legally and the old man will have the culprits head

BPRAL22169: What’s a poor cook to do?

ddavitt: crepes suzette need that little something…

AGplusone: He has to … have their heads, for stupidity

SageMerlin: or not sharing

rjjusu: if they break the 11th commandment, then they are guilty by definition

SageMerlin: How did we get here? I mean, just asking.

AGplusone: adultry and fornification were felonies in most states in ’29 … do you think the Ensigns of ’29 were

AGplusone: virgins?

BPRAL22169: Somethign that complicates the traitor question is that in a democracy, there are certain circum-

BPRAL22169: stances in which oen is morally bound to disobey a law.

SageMerlin: Adultery is still illegal in Boston. Ask any Kennedy

ddavitt: Are there?

BPRAL22169: And the right to overturn the government is specifically reserved in the Declaration

Dehede03: I had my first white lightening aboard base

Dehede03: I was in my bunk at Norfolk

SageMerlin: The New Hampshire state constitution has a specific article in it called The Right of Revolution.

ddavitt: Is that like moonshine?

Dehede03: Yes

SageMerlin: There are always towns in NH trying to break away. One tried to join canada once.

ddavitt: I’ve had Polish spirit

AGplusone: Back to ‘beating the system’ a moment … do things like alcohol aboard ships really count.

Dehede03: I was sicker than a dog with flue and my buddy thought it would cure me

AGplusone: Isn’t that what everyone does?

ddavitt: or kill you

ddavitt: We all speed, yes?

BPRAL22169: If you base your polity on natural moral law, then revolution is an inalienable right.

AGplusone: It’s not lying cheating or stealing is it?

AGplusone: or tolerating someone who does …

BPRAL22169: Jane! I’m shocked!

ddavitt: We set our own judgement of our driving skills against an agreed upon limit

SageMerlin: In Britian, with those roads, speeding is a self-correcting sin.,

ddavitt: I’m sorry Bill but I do.

rjjusu: One of the most difficult things in life is learning how to think for oneself.

rjjusu: The next most difficult thing is finding the right balance …

rjjusu: between obedience and independence

SageMerlin: I have been thinking for myself all my life…..can’t seem to find anyone to do it for me.

ddavitt: I understand if you never visit Ontario out of fear of meeting me in a car

SageMerlin: And believe me, I have tried.

BPRAL22169: (You just don’t hang out wth the right crowd, Sage)

rjjusu: So, you aren’t married, then???

SageMerlin: Well, I did once, but I had to shoot him.

Dehede03: Toronto — the world’s greatest party town

SageMerlin: Married. Well, yes.

SageMerlin: For twentry years.

ddavitt: I object to that statement as a married person myself :-)

rjjusu: Well there you go…..

BPRAL22169: You see — no matter where you go, there you are.

SageMerlin: Thankfully, we haven’t lived together for 12

AGplusone: Why don’t we take ten … then resume at 25 past the hour ….

SageMerlin: So there you go.

ddavitt: OK.

SageMerlin: Hoist on your own petard.

Dehede03: ok

BPRAL22169: Yes, indeed; there you are.

rjjusu: And here we are…

SageMerlin: Denv….

AGplusone: afk

SageMerlin: Sidebar?

BPRAL22169: And we are all together

ddavitt: This is getting too deep for me…

BPRAL22169: Get out your hip waders.

rjjusu: That’s what snorkels are for…

ddavitt: And I’m not in the alltogether; i have a dressing gown on

SageMerlin: thank goodness.

ddavitt: Or is that more Brit slang you don’t know?

SageMerlin: Otherwise, my god, I might have a coron…a stroke

ddavitt: 😉

BPRAL22169: Oooh — this is the internet, isn’t it?!

ddavitt: We’re on a break.

BPRAL22169: I’ve hear things about these here chat rooms.

SageMerlin: Here Here

ddavitt: And I have a reputation to live down to

BPRAL22169: Pardon me — I was wrong. “I done heer things.”

rjjusu: Bill, you’re still only taking checks for THJ right?

ddavitt: That’s better…

BPRAL22169: That’s right — I don’t have anything like paypal yet.

SageMerlin: Hey, Ron…are you out there?

SageMerlin: Dead silence.

BPRAL22169: I sent him an IM on AOL; he seems to have left the room.

ddavitt: I had an idea about using Amazon to pay the dues

ddavitt: There is an honour system

SageMerlin: I am going to be in Denver next week and I thought I would say hello

AGplusone: afk means he might be pouring a drink, a stiff one ….

ddavitt: Where you pay for a site you visit to help maintain it

rjjusu: Now that I finally have a new permanent address, I need to send it to you

BPRAL22169: That’s cute.

ddavitt: Amazon take cards I’m sure

rjjusu: with a check after I get back from Montreal.

ddavitt: It was when i was looking at the links

ddavitt: I spotted it

BPRAL22169: Better do it quick — #9 is about to go to press, so I’ll be

mailing within a week or two.

ddavitt: Just a thought. But we could get donations that way if we link to it as well as a simple book search

Dehede03: Yeah I am back

ddavitt: For THS

BPRAL22169: I meant to ask earlier — will that library that burned down take library discards?

rjjusu: can you send me your address again and I’ll try to get it in the

mail tomorrow from here.

ddavitt: I think they should if they are a library

ddavitt: I have three paperbacks to send

ddavitt: But I will have to take them off the afh book swap apge first

BPRAL22169: Easiest is for you to e-mail me your address, then follow up with a check

BPRAL22169: I have to make the labels within the next couple of days.

BPRAL22169: I thought they didn’t want paperbacks, Jane?

ddavitt: Did you change my post code

ddavitt: They want durable…

ddavitt: but pb’s can be laminated

AGplusone: Okay: 25 past. You mentioned the twerp in Farmer as an example, Bill, of what?

BPRAL22169: Ah. Well, I’ve got two boxes of duplicates I keep on hand to have giveaways.

BPRAL22169: let’s talk later about that.

ddavitt: OK

rjjusu: Okay, Bill. I have your address at home, but not here with me on reserve duty.

BPRAL22169: Ok – in FitS, the twerp in the helicopter shows up later in the Mayflower.

ddavitt: Yes he does

BPRAL22169: And he turns out to be an okay guy.

AGplusone: “twerp” is one who later turns out to be Lermer’s best friend, maybe excepting Sergi

ddavitt: Another eg of first person narration being suspect?

BPRAL22169: He was “inconvenient” to Bill Jones at the start, but not a creep otherwise.

ddavitt: But he is a bit of a jerk

ddavitt: Or is Bill just uptight?

BPRAL22169: Heinlein tries to say within the boundaries of what his voice character could see and know.

ddavitt: Well, yes, he has to really

BPRAL22169: A bit of both, I think.

AGplusone: Naw, just a high-spirited kid, not stogey like Bill who is rigid as the rock they break down on G

rjjusu: Sorry I wasn’t more specific, Bill. Can you email your snailmail address to rjost@zianet.com?

BPRAL22169: He’s a jerk (a little bit) AND Bill Lermer is a bit of a prig.

ddavitt: He breaks a rule tho; a safety rule

AGplusone: Lermer is immature ….

ddavitt: Not a silly rule

AGplusone: goes by all the rules, all the time ….

BPRAL22169: (ok — sorry I misunderstood. That is on the old copies you have, so I didn’t twig to it)

AGplusone: in the beginning, because he has no judgment to depend on …

ddavitt: Does he?

rjjusu: And with true maturity, and self-discipline, one can make a reasoned decision to break a rule?

ddavitt: I felt sorry for Noisy when he goes for the meals…they let him go and he gets punished

AGplusone: Perfect little boy, eagle scout, patrol leader …. (I think so)

ddavitt: And hero on the ship David

ddavitt: Would the other lad have reacted so fast? Was it Hank?

AGplusone: right place, right time, had a boy scout uniform to stuff in the hole

ddavitt: Can’t dismiss it that easily!

AGplusone: Sure they would have … if they’d been there.

ddavitt: He did well

BPRAL22169: “it”?

AGplusone: Not everyone.

AGplusone: But possibly Hank would have

ddavitt: You don’t like him do you?

AGplusone: He does the right thing on getting Bill back from the cave.

BPRAL22169: I try to resist pulling out the books to check stuff like this — I wind up with a pile of books

ddavitt: I have argued this before with you I think.

ddavitt: Well, we all know who we mean

AGplusone: Who, Bill? I like him, but he’s just too young in the beginning too rigid …. like the rocks they

ddavitt: fairly sure it was hank

AGplusone: have to break down on Ganymede to make into useful soil.

BPRAL22169: It occurs to me there are several buddy-pairs in RAH juveniles that help each other grow.

ddavitt: You think he reacts badly to the marriage?

AGplusone: Extremely so

BPRAL22169: The Red Planet pair, too.

rjjusu: how about the Greens?

ddavitt: No, I don’t you see…I think his dad is way culpable

ddavitt: But this is OT I suppose

ddavitt: Neither are finks

BPRAL22169: OT but interesting.

ddavitt: Nor is Noisy

Dehede03: BRB

AGplusone: Too kind and too hesitant to break the fragile and rigid world of merit badges his son creates

ddavitt: Buddy pairs; yes, Frank is a guide for Jim

AGplusone: for himself to deal with lose of the mother.

ddavitt: Isable for Don?

AGplusone: loss

ddavitt: Isabel

ddavitt: Ellie for max as well as Sam

BPRAL22169: I’m not sure Isabel — he winds up separated from her too much of th ebook.

ddavitt: He tells him he’s ggeting married the next day! That’s so cruel

BPRAL22169: I would say Sam and Max fall better into that.

rjjusu: Notice that Jim’s dad didn’t trust him to know about the upcoming marriage, unsure of his reaction

BPRAL22169: Max gives Sam the opportunity to rehabilitate himself.

ddavitt: He is with her for a while before the attack; she may form his thinking on Venus indeoendence

AGplusone: All Heinlein heros get married the next day. What do you want? One year engagements?

rjjusu: 3 days for blood tests?

ddavitt: Oh come on! He doesn’t have time to choose a tie to wear!

ddavitt: Let alone a gift

AGplusone: So what? he’s a kid. He can stay on Earth if he doesn’t like it.

ddavitt: No, it was cruel and motives aside, it was wrong way to deal with a difficult situation

ddavitt: I said you didn’t like him…

BPRAL22169: It was the wrong way — but it may have been the only way to do it.

rjjusu: That’s not the point, David. If they were going to be true partners – as they were portrayed

AGplusone: Who? Bill and daddy?

rjjusu: then he should have been told about things affecting the partnership.

BPRAL22169: Bill was segueing into the wife role for his father. Not healthy.

ddavitt: Must have been lots of behind the back meetings to have got to the proposal point too

AGplusone: Daddy never should have let his son even think they were partners.

ddavitt: Why not?

AGplusone: See BPRAL above

ddavitt: He was old enough to be responsible

BPRAL22169: This was in 1949, too — the readers would have been cued that there was something

BPRAL22169: drastically wrong with their relationship.

ddavitt: Wife; you mean he cooked so that makes him the wife?

ddavitt: dangerous ground here…

rjjusu: No, because he treated him as if he were equal in the decision making process.

ddavitt: Hid dad was a dreamer; he was practical

AGplusone: You’ve overstated the case, Jane. You have to admit it’s present

BPRAL22169: Dammit

BPRAL22169: He thinks about his father in the way literary conventions of 1949

BPRAL22169: portray wives thinking about their helplessly impractical husbands.

ddavitt: I never saw it that way David

ddavitt: Different POV’s maybe.

AGplusone: In 1949 no son that age ever called his father by his first name … does that give you a hint.

AGplusone: ?

rjjusu: I still don’t

BPRAL22169: yes, taht was the point I was trying to bring out.

ddavitt: I just felt for Bill and his grief over his mother

ddavitt: Yes, they did

Dehede03: I thought the first name was to make it strange

ddavitt: In lots of US books they do

ddavitt: Written then i mean

AGplusone: Grief too long … play games with merit badges too long … time to grow and if that means breaking

ddavitt: It seemed to be a fashion

BPRAL22169: No, it was a cue to the readers that there was something wrong.

AGplusone: eggshell mentality, then that’s what has to be done.

AGplusone: Too much indulgence of Bill before the beginning of story

ddavitt: We don’t know how long it’s been

BPRAL22169: Right. George may not have had the options others might have.

AGplusone: Doesn’t matter how long …

AGplusone: it plainly wasn’t yesterday

rjjusu: can’t make omelettes without breaking eggs? and the chick can’t escape without breaking the shell

ddavitt: Side note; Anne’s Farewell is mentioned; another new religion?

AGplusone: that’s what I believe ….

BPRAL22169: But George also wasn’t forthright about seeing the other woman. The lack of forthrightness

ddavitt: Does matter. If a year, natural to grieve.

rjjusu: Custom? Formalized wake?

BPRAL22169: also cues us that there was somethign wrong.

ddavitt: Yes but unfamilar term. like Rod’s family in Tunnel

AGplusone: Yes, I agree. George isn’t perfect ….

BPRAL22169: There are many cues that the relationship is in need of healing.

AGplusone: he coddled Bill too much too long and finally realizes he has to break the egg

ddavitt: maybe..

BPRAL22169: And, of course, the healing takes place when Bill goes through his individuation crisis.

AGplusone: Maybe his new wife helped him see that

BPRAL22169: Maybe his new wife counseled him to handle it more gently than he wanted to?

ddavitt: It does work out for the best, I don’t think the marriage is bad, just the way it happened

BPRAL22169: We get so little of her it’s hard to form any real opinion.

ddavitt: Peggy….now that was a loss

AGplusone: Could be, George says he originally thought to leave Bill on Earth to finish school

ddavitt: Like a Peewee type but weaker

rjjusu: I think the marriage was an opportunity to make a clear break from the stasis that George was in

BPRAL22169: It would have been an easy way to handle the problem.

SageMerlin: I am suffering computer melt down…I have to pull over and look under the hood of this thing bye

SageMerlin has left the room.

BPRAL22169: ciao.

ddavitt: Interesting post on afh by Ginny about her death

Dehede03: bye

ddavitt: Night

AGplusone: Besides if he’d been left on earth, it would have lost the metaphore of breaking down the rock

rjjusu: The one thing that Bill could never give George was a perspective tempered by experience.

ddavitt: It’s true too; lots of juveniles have deaths in first part of last century

AGplusone: equals breaking down Bill’s inhibitions in character and immaturity

ddavitt: That’s a good analogy AG; not thought of it like that

ddavitt: I’m the literal type :-)

AGplusone: everyone knows I’m poetic type, etheral in the heavens

rjjusu: We all need time enough for love, and time enough to gain experience.

ddavitt: Blowing up the skull rock just seemed a victory over the planet, not themselves

Dehede03: David, I am wearing short pants and a good thing too.

ddavitt: I will remember that and make allowances david

ddavitt: keyboard time huh?

AGplusone: Have to clean your cuffs if you weren’t, right Ron?

Dehede03: I reckon

ddavitt: brb; baby alert

AGplusone: Incidentally, there’s two panels on Farmer on Thursday, Sept 1 at PhilCon

rjjusu: Why do suppose Jane considers her baby a “lert”? I just don’t understand mothers!

ddavitt: OK, i have to go now. night all, enjoyed the chat.

ddavitt: I read that!

AGplusone: What about “Smitty” as a sneak, fink, etc., in Red Planet ….? Or is he just more mature?

ddavitt: She needs a bottle

Dehede03: night jane

DJedPar: Bye Jane

ddavitt: teething. Bye

rjjusu: Of course you did!

Dehede03: how old now”

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: An adult among boys …

BPRAL22169: “Roads Must Roll”

BPRAL22169: I’m trying to think of other finks, spies, etc.

BPRAL22169: A classic opportunity for a fink.

AGplusone: hard to find in the juveniles …

BPRAL22169: But instead we get a megalomaniac.

rjjusu: If you decide to “be responsible”, does that make you more mature or a fink?

rjjusu: Again, it depends on perspective

rjjusu: and experience

Dehede03: Guys, I have to move along now. But I enjoyed the stay.

Reilloc: Motive.

AGplusone: all three I think

Dehede03: Have a good evening

Reilloc: If the motive is personal gain the character’s a fink.

Dehede03 has left the room.

AGplusone: Okay, that’s along the lines of what Randy mentioned just before you came in LN

AGplusone: What if it’s a mixed motive situation, tho ….

AGplusone: generally it will be

Reilloc: Such as…?

AGplusone: John Dahlquist in “Long Watch”

rjjusu: And what if one is “fooling” ones self?

BPRAL22169: You have the perfect opportunity to introduce hypocrisy as a reason for despising the character.

Reilloc: I don’t remember Long Watch

AGplusone: doesn’t want his wife and child growing up under the threat of nuclear destruction

Reilloc: So, what’s the do?

AGplusone: and really thinks he’ll figure out a way out until he realizes he’s become radioactive

rjjusu: and becomes the situational hero

AGplusone: He locks himself in the vault with the bombs and destroys them, and is a traitor to his ‘superior

Reilloc: I’ll have to find and re-read it.

AGplusone: officers’ who led the coup

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

Reilloc: Oh, I remember that now.

rjjusu: wb Jim

AGplusone: short story in Man Who Sold the Moon

NuclearWasteUSN: Thank you Randy

Reilloc: That wasn’t personal gain.

AGplusone: In a sense it was ….

Reilloc: It was greater good.

Reilloc: Personal is absolutely personal to the character.

AGplusone: but greater good, he thought, could be obtained with personal gain as well

rjjusu: Yes, he selfishly wanted to protect his family, but it mapped into the good of all

AGplusone: Okay, if you restrict it that way, then I agree

Reilloc: I so restrict it.

Reilloc: Next topic.

AGplusone: totally personal, no other gain to anyone or thing

DavidWrightSr: s

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

AGplusone: but my questions was, what if it’s mixed motive?

Reilloc: s for spies?

NuclearWasteUSN: No man is an island. I don’t think that that is possible.

rjjusu: But, no man is an island – our choices always affect others.

NuclearWasteUSN: GMTA

Reilloc: John Donne notwithstanding, what’s the point?

rjjusu: :-)

AGplusone: Do you have to judge predominate, or incidental motives …

NuclearWasteUSN: Any person’s decisions and actions will affect others.

Reilloc: If “he” did it to make a buck, he’s a fink.

AGplusone: Lee, for example, had lots of slaves ….

Reilloc: Lee was a traitor

rjjusu: There will always be a calculation made in making choices. Costs and benefits

AGplusone: all that loyalty to Virginia could have been rationalization…

AGplusone: Hancock was getting killed by the restrictive trade laws

rjjusu: What are the costs and who benefits? Answer those questions and you gain some

AGplusone: Richest trader in Boston

rjjusu: insight into why the choice was made.

NuclearWasteUSN: True, but those costs and benefits also involve intangibles such as personal notions of honor.

BPRAL22169: Sometimes the conflict of interests is the heart of the story — consider “1776.”

rjjusu: And that is a major point Jim. How do you quantify the “true” costs and benefits?

Reilloc: Begging the question.

BPRAL22169: Told as a triumph with the seed of tragedy left in it.

Reilloc: Heinlein heros have pure motives.

NuclearWasteUSN: We all quantify them on the subconscious level.

NuclearWasteUSN: Something very automatic.

AGplusone: Morris goes broke … Hancock doesn’t …. I think some Heinlein heros might not have true motives

AGplusone: If for example, Gwen is a hero …

Reilloc: I said pure

NuclearWasteUSN: Such as Thorby?

rjjusu: Heinleins heros were “real” people – their motives were rarely pure

Reilloc: Heinlein heros are cardboard, their motives are always pure.

AGplusone: what exactly is pure about her motives …. turns out she killed Tallifero in the beginning

NuclearWasteUSN: It has always struck me that his decision to remain as Rudbek of Rudbeck smelled of rationalization.

AGplusone: which starts Colin Campbell in his road that could have led to ruin

Reilloc: Reminds me of a movie I saw recently with my daughter.

AGplusone: and leaves him dying next to the computer

AGplusone: She’s a user of the ‘hero,’ not very heroic.

AGplusone: What movie

Reilloc: New Disney movie called “Princess Diaries”

rjjusu: If Heinlein’s heroes are cardboard, it is the cardboard of a standup figure,

Reilloc: She’s 11 and I’m her father.

AGplusone: Thor remains a slave … now a slave to his empire.

rjjusu: and they look pretty real from a little distance

Reilloc: So, we go to things like “Princess Diaries”

NuclearWasteUSN: True, the irony being that he was freer as a slave.

rjjusu: The shackles of responsibility?

AGplusone: Yes, the sixteen hours he’ll work daily now …. but he will enjoy it, he thinks

NuclearWasteUSN: I believe Dr. Mader points that out for him while he is on the Sisu

NuclearWasteUSN: In

rjjusu: Placed on oneself for whatever reason, conscious or unconscious

Reilloc: Unconscious?

AGplusone: Maybe it was planted in his skull along with the message to the Captain of the Sisu

AGplusone: by Baslim.

rjjusu: Many people can NOT tell you why the really do certain things. They may rationalize

Reilloc: Many people are innately inarticulate

rjjusu: but they won’t always admit consciously why they did something.

AGplusone: we twig from our conditioning

NuclearWasteUSN: Does not sound like Col. Richard Baslim. Implanting suggestion under hypnosis was not something he

AGplusone: if we are raised to beleive ‘duty, honor, country’ we probably always will

NuclearWasteUSN: would approve of

Reilloc: We can’t always put into words what made a decision come.

AGplusone: True, but even without the hypno, he conditioned Thorby by his example

Reilloc: Classical or operant?

rjjusu: True, but there is a reason why “to know oneself” is good advice.

NuclearWasteUSN: And a swift kick when needed.

NuclearWasteUSN: operant.

Reilloc: It’s glib to tell somebody to “know oneself”

AGplusone: Just as Ziggy would have conditioned Thorby to be a thief

NuclearWasteUSN: If we look at it that way, is not all childrearing conditioning?

AGplusone: not lately

rjjusu: Not glib, rather a lifelong process that should be undertaken in a deliberate fashion.

Reilloc: NOthing but glib if you can’t tell the recipient of the advice how.

AGplusone: doesn’t seem to be a consistent message of conditioning in child rearing practiced among

AGplusone: the intellectuals lately

Reilloc: It’s like my dead dad saying he wanted his kids to “know the value of a dollar”

Reilloc: I still don’t know exactly what he meant by that.

NuclearWasteUSN: You can make a 20 minute call…

Reilloc: Particularly how since a buck’s a ’63 nickel.

AGplusone: An enigma … but he meant, I suspect, whatever his culture meant. And then one main thing

NuclearWasteUSN: How was it that Heinlein defined an intellectual?

AGplusone: was it meant “It has to be earned by work, struggle, sacrifice … etc.”

Reilloc: Nope.

Reilloc: Not dad.

Reilloc: It was either what it represented or what it could do.

AGplusone: Oh, yes …. well …. that’s another subculture meaning

NuclearWasteUSN: Generally when I hear someone make that statement they mean “I sure hope my kid manages money better

NuclearWasteUSN: than I do. ”

Reilloc: Nope, not dad.

Reilloc: He could pinch them until the eagle grinned.

AGplusone: We could probably piece together one heck of a complex meaning for that saying

AGplusone: ‘value of a dollar’

Reilloc: Value of a dollar is know thyself.

rjjusu: So did you ever ask him “What in hell do you mean by that?”

Reilloc: Nope.

Reilloc: He wasn’t tempted to glib.

AGplusone: No, because he always explained to me … my dad said the same thing to me.

AGplusone: And he used it to fit my age and situation.

AGplusone: Mostly he meant, then, get out and do something useful.

BPRAL22169: Ah. The 2×4 approach.

AGplusone: Gentle two by four

NuclearWasteUSN: Dad used to have us pull fence and set posts for much less than the minimum wage. This taught us the

rjjusu: Amazing what can be learned once one

Reilloc: More like the “if you’re not busy doing something you’re just taking up space” attitude.

NuclearWasteUSN: value of a dollar both to him, and to us.

rjjusu: s attention is focused. A Baslim approach indeed.

AGplusone: . . . and I won’t be around forever to give you dollars …

Reilloc: The old man couldn’t renshaw upholstery into me, though.

Reilloc: I wish he had.

rjjusu: Why would you want to remember naugahyde?

Reilloc: Because that’s what he did.

AGplusone: Aren’t subculture meanings subsumed into an overall understanding, tho?

Reilloc: He was a man of the cloth but raised us in the material world.

AGplusone: Commonly, value of dollar might me the value of earning through work, but could mean other things

Reilloc: Where are the hip boots?

BPRAL22169: Bakhtin says those subculture meanings are placed in ‘dialog’ with the principal meanings.

AGplusone: easily recognized by someone when the correct referent is applied

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, but the plurality of those meanings gives rise to the confusion over just what was meant.

Reilloc: Subsumed into an overall understanding and you complain about modern intellectual parents?

rjjusu: ahhhh, bless the beasts and the naugas…..

AGplusone: Didn’t say anything about agreeing with the understanding, just said understanding

Reilloc: If I possessed this “common” understanding…

Reilloc: …and, to me, that smacks of “common wisdom” which, of course, is provervially always wrong…

Reilloc: I wouldn’t ask what he meant.

AGplusone: you need not agree with it either, just be aware of the belief that’s it’s a common understanding

Reilloc: 100 pennies?

Reilloc: 20 nickles?

NuclearWasteUSN: Are you saying that the ideas put forth on the subject are all new to you?

Reilloc: Sufficient lucre to induce X to change his position materially to my advantage?

AGplusone: I don’t think he’s saying that, Jim. I think he’s driving to a point about characters in Heinlein

AGplusone: or at least springboarding off one

Reilloc: All the RAH chars know the value of a dollar.

NuclearWasteUSN: OK I will shut up and watch him weave his web.

rjjusu: how does one sift the connotations out of the denotations? What basis is used to make the decision

Reilloc: All the RAH fans know it to when they see it but they can’t articulate it.

AGplusone: lovely old Potter Stewart

Reilloc: Give me Brennan any day.

AGplusone: I’d take him too, but Stewart made the point nicely

Reilloc: There’ll never be another Bill Brennan.

NuclearWasteUSN: Belle Darkin and Miles Gentry?

Reilloc: Hey, David…?

NuclearWasteUSN: Or did you mean to limit that to protagonists?

Reilloc: Is Scalia a fink?

Reilloc: I think he is.

Reilloc: If he were in a new RAH, let’s call it something like…

AGplusone: Miles might be an example (not to himself … he was put up there to do exactly whatever is necessary)

Reilloc: “Menace from the Bench,” not a reader would fail to properly identify him as one.

AGplusone: Miles sells out one set of responsibilities, to his partner, step daughter, friends

Reilloc: Why? He does what he does for personal gain.

AGplusone: etc. for lucre

AGplusone: Absolutely …

AGplusone: but he was appointed because he was bought and paid for, even if he paid himself

Reilloc: But it’s disguised, better than they did to D.B. Davis, under copious logisms.

NuclearWasteUSN: Cas and Pol did not seem to “know the value of a dollar”

AGplusone: he picked his side … and stays on it.

AGplusone: No surprise in result … ever, with him. while Miles Darkin is surprising

NuclearWasteUSN: Seems he cheated Belle in the end, and gave everything to Ricky.

NuclearWasteUSN: So I don’t think I agree with that statement either.

rjjusu: But they thought they did, and based their decisions on that understanding.

Reilloc: Cheated the cheater?

Reilloc: That’s bad?

AGplusone: surprising in many ways … the last one was on Belle

NuclearWasteUSN: No, not bad, just showing that he did not stay bought.

Reilloc: Miles?

Reilloc: He stayed bought.

Reilloc: Evil bought him and he went more evil.

NuclearWasteUSN: Acyually, ISTR a reference to Belle using the zombie drug on him, but I could be wrong.

AGplusone: bought by himself

AGplusone: There was a hint that DB believed that possible

AGplusone: but that’s DB Davis being a mensch

NuclearWasteUSN: I think it was while Dan was under, she said something to Miles about he should know the drug works.

AGplusone: trying to figure out how evil could have occurred

AGplusone: But I agree he bought evil (sold his soul, if you will) and stayed evil until the end, and maybe just

AGplusone: out of pique screwed Belle at the end.

Reilloc: Nah, it’s what the evil do.

Reilloc: If you’re bad you either stay bad or get redeemed by dying.

AGplusone: “It’s my nature ….”

AGplusone: The scorpion getting carried across the river

Reilloc: Who was the Swede kid in TITS who went armed to the teeth and died first?

AGplusone: Thor

Reilloc: He wasn’t “evil” in the malevolent sense; he was dumb evil.

AGplusone: Maybe … I always figured he planned to survive by poaching the unwary

maikoshT: Message is too long or too complex

AGplusone: ‘no rules’

Reilloc: If you’re right, he’s evil to the nth.

Reilloc: Either way, he got the alternative redemption.

AGplusone: agreed, as bad as the two brothers, Mcgowens

Reilloc: I know those guys.

Reilloc: They’re clients.

rjjusu: I’ll get you my pretty, and your “little” dog, too ….

AGplusone: lol

AGplusone: I also figured he planned to let the dog eat the bodies of those he poached

AGplusone: cut down on inventory

rjjusu: Kibbles and bits on the hoof …..

Reilloc: This group ever discussed stobor?

AGplusone: as in robots?

Reilloc: As in “beware of the…”

AGplusone: spelled backwards …. at times

Reilloc: No?

rjjusu: or as in the unstated threat that can focus one’s mind, or paralyze it if overanalyzed?

AGplusone: At times, no reason why we can’t now … No, I don’t think we have ever gone that far, but

Reilloc: Either way but I like the backwards better.

AGplusone: it’s a point of view that might be fun

AGplusone: to look at.

Reilloc: My theory is that RAH saw the development of that area of the genre as a threat to character developme

Reilloc: nt

rjjusu: elucidate please?

NuclearWasteUSN: Daneel had more character developed than most of Isaac’a other characters.

Reilloc: It’s a tacit anti-Asimov warning.

AGplusone: And, therefore, a reason not to have BEMs often?

AGplusone: Robots … amount to same thing

Reilloc: There was no Daneel before the trilogy and the trilogy was all character development.

AGplusone: †aking me back thirty years or so …

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, Hober Mallow is written deep in the collective subconscience.

DJedPar: Wasn’t Stobor in Tunnel in The Sky? Wherefore the robots?

NuclearWasteUSN: Stobor backwards

Reilloc: I sure can’t see yellow very well on this screen.

AGplusone: Point is: a subtle warning against Asimov’s use of all-wise supra human characters?

Reilloc: Yes.

AGplusone: Who’s yellow? Me?

Reilloc: Not all that subtle.

AGplusone: True, but nothing we’ve really picked up before this LN, because we haven’t considered Asimov together

AGplusone: with Tunnel

Reilloc: If I’m out of order I withdraw the topid.

AGplusone: Most of our considerations of Tunnel are vis-a-vis Golding’s story

Reilloc: topic

NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t buy that. If he felt that way then Mike (SiaSL TMiaHM) would not have been written

AGplusone: No, it’s interesting and we’re winding down … anything’s fair

Reilloc: Mike’s a robot?

NuclearWasteUSN: All wise supra human character

NuclearWasteUSN: Either Mike

AGplusone: Except Mike’s an angel and the story’s a satire rather than whatever Tunnel is

Reilloc: I don’t follow.

maikoshT: Mike in TMIAH

NuclearWasteUSN: Mycroft Holmes

Reilloc: All RAH protags are all-wise and superhuman.

AGplusone: We’re not supposed to follow Mike into his Nine Circles

NuclearWasteUSN: Or Valentine Micheal Smith

Reilloc: But they

Reilloc: are human.

AGplusone: or at least we’re not supposed to stay there after the ride

NuclearWasteUSN: Reilloc, you tend to paint with a very wide brush.

AGplusone: We all do, though ….

Reilloc: I avoid yellow, though.

Reilloc: Too hard to see at my age.

NuclearWasteUSN: So you do have redeeming qualities

Reilloc: I’m tolerant of the young and inexperienced.

NuclearWasteUSN: This is a virtue?

Reilloc: It’s a living.

rjjusu: Why, then you could be a god, with redeeming qualities! 😉

AGplusone: Aren’t we all?

Reilloc: Or she could be me.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have conclusive proof that God is not female.

AGplusone: My idea of the real god was this big fat lady …. but I better not go on.

rjjusu: Best claim the patent then, before She rakes in the benefits of being you.

Reilloc: God lives in a trailer in Montana and has 329487 cats.

NuclearWasteUSN: We have heard nothing from God in 2000 years.

NuclearWasteUSN: No woman could be quiet that long.

NuclearWasteUSN: Please erase this from the log

AGplusone: :-)

DJedPar: GOD according to Cohen is Generator of Diversity.

AGplusone: really … great joke, NW

rjjusu: And that begs the question, “Why Montana?” :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: My wife has just slapped me.

Reilloc: Wy Knot?

AGplusone: Tell Jani she can pick on me instead of you.

rjjusu: Wyoming?

Reilloc: Ask her.

rjjusu: I don’t thinks She can hear me over the sound of neverending Friskies….

rjjusu: rustling in thousands of bowls.

AGplusone: Running down with fifteen minutes to go …. Cat crunchies out here.

Reilloc: So, who’s a fink?

DJedPar: Send me some.

Reilloc: The Old Man in Puppet Masters?

Reilloc: Who’s he working for, by the way?

rjjusu: No, he was totally justified in his own mind.

Reilloc: Some deity in Montana with lots of cats?

AGplusone: He goes over to the other side, but was that volitional ….

Reilloc: No, before the invasion.

Reilloc: What had he become?

AGplusone: he certainly takes Sam to the top of the mountain top at the end ….

AGplusone: Unnecessary

AGplusone: he needs a crisis

Reilloc: No…unchecked in his decision making.

rjjusu: He used who and what was available to meet the ends that he thought were best.

Reilloc: No notions of right and wrong anymore.

rjjusu: Is that finkdom or being hard-nosed to the nth degree?

AGplusone: He had that authority, but, did he have occasion to use it before

Reilloc: Obviously he had…

Reilloc: Look at his reputation.

Reilloc: If he told you that this was the tree of liberty and you needed to jump in and fertilize it…

Reilloc: You better leap and start to rot.

AGplusone: Yes, Sam agreed

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

Reilloc: So, he was a fink?

Reilloc: I still don’t know to whom he reported.

AGplusone: Did he act from a basis of ethics outside himself?

AGplusone: Presumably the Prez, and the oath to preserve, protect and defend

Reilloc: Maybe once but he’d become super J. Edgar.

rjjusu: No, he didn’t blow his wad early in the game …

rjjusu: But when the invasion came, then all bets were off.

Reilloc: I don’t think he was meant to come off fink.

AGplusone: Could be …. but we don’t know that he had become that …. he may merely have assumed

AGplusone: the authority and, being successful, was ratified instead of shot.

Reilloc: (Too powerful to shoot before you know where the files all are)

AGplusone: Well, that’s J. Edgar

rjjusu: Like refusing an unlawful order – you better be right or you are cat food for Her many cats….

AGplusone: or shot in combat

Reilloc: He was, to me, obviously not meant to be a fink but in retrospect…

AGplusone: he could easily have been … the character type … what was the name of the Matt Helm

AGplusone: boss in those novels by ….. ????

rjjusu: But being correct brings forgiveness for many sins.

AGplusone: back again to end justifies

Reilloc: Zeb in NOTB

rjjusu: the mean-ies?

AGplusone: the boss he seems to have followed was ‘preservation of humanity against external threat’

Reilloc: Was he a fink in some ways?

Reilloc: What was the title of his doctoral dissertation?

Reilloc: “How to skin a roomful of weasels and have them make you one with weaseldom without ever trying?”

rjjusu: we certainly shouldn’t consider that finkhood is mutally exclusive with ….

rjjusu: doing the right thing under the right circumstances

Reilloc: Uhhh….

Reilloc: Wanna buy a bridge in New York?

Reilloc: I really need the money and can let it go cheap.

rjjusu: I have two already. Have the papers right here.

Reilloc: Upper and lower?

AGplusone: The system allowed him to do that … he was marking time making money by winning at poker

AGplusone: and being a grad ed student was a good cover

AGplusone: everyone knows they are dumber than rocks

Reilloc: He deceived gayly.

AGplusone: He did indeed

AGplusone: He becomes deceitful as a way of life ….

rjjusu: Being a grad ed student is good for being ground cover

Reilloc: But you know why he’s not a fink?

AGplusone: down to the hidden ordnance in Gay Deceiver herself

rjjusu: And teaches Gay Deceiver to be a gay deceiver.

Reilloc: Because they’re all marks he’s deceiving.

AGplusone: how can you tell one way or t’other. He’s loyal to his friends?

AGplusone: Yes

Reilloc: He’s true to his friends.

Reilloc: Everyone else is a mark.

AGplusone: Sure

AGplusone: We and they

BPRAL22169: Night all.

Reilloc: Me too.

AGplusone: Night Bill. It’s time for me too.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Reilloc: Brush needs to rest.

rjjusu: Which makes sense for him to major in education, since he is always putting down the marks

AGplusone: End ???

AGplusone: LOL

maikoshT: I’m glad that I am not that cynical. I think you guys read far too much into some of these characters.

DJedPar: Night Bill. Night All. Yes

AGplusone: nice pun

AGplusone: See you Saturday, any of you.

Reilloc: What time?

rjjusu: okay

AGplusone: End Log …. 855 PM PDT

maikoshT: 5:00 P.M. EDT Saturday

Reilloc: 10:55 CDT

Reilloc: That’s, like, 4 here in Kansas?

DJedPar has left the room.

rjjusu: yes

Reilloc: I’m just getting up then.

maikoshT: 4:00 Central

AGplusone: g’nite

AGplusone has left the room.

Reilloc: NIght, all.

Reilloc has left the room.

maikoshT: Night Guys. I’m gone. Sorry I couldn’t contribute more.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 06-23-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Aliens In Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 06-23-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Aliens In Heinlein

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi Folks.

AGplusone: Hi, David. Nice to receive that sign up today

AGplusone: I cannot tell if Ginny’s afk or what

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

AGplusone: Surprised we didn’t get any more comment to the post noting your timeline for All You Zombies that I …

AGplusone: posted on rec.arts.sf.written

DavidWrightSr: I had to miss Thursday nights discussion and am only now getting the log together

AGplusone: did they discuss anything … I missed it entirely too

DavidWrightSr: I don’t know yet, haven’t even had a chance to read it. Just processing raw text

AGplusone: been a busy week for me

AGplusone: I’m bogged down in paperwork

AGplusone: Did you get your copy of Patterson’s The Martian Named Smith … ?

DavidWrightSr: I’ve been working on migrating my major system to a new language, it’s rough

DavidWrightSr: It came today, read the first 10 or so pages.

AGplusone: Sounds like taking a voyage to Plymouth Rock … ‘migrating my major system

DavidWrightSr: The version we use is 13-14 years old and I want to modernize it before I retire

AGplusone: hard or easy sledding? the reading, I mean.

DavidWrightSr: Introduction was pure lit type stuff, but fairly straightforward. just getting started on main part

AGplusone: I’m enjoying it, but Bill loses me every third turn at least.

DavidWrightSr: Is Bill an English Prof?

DavidWrightSr: Me too.

AGplusone: No. Just studied a lot.

AGplusone: very well read

DavidWrightSr: He can talk the talk all right. I never knew that such things existed. What does he do?

AGplusone: and I get the feeling Andy Thornton’s about the same.

AGplusone: Bill generally works in law offices as a paralegal or works for projects that have something to do with

AGplusone: artificial intelligence

AGplusone: so far as I know

DavidWrightSr: Ah, interesting. I hate these short lines argh

AGplusone: and me

DavidWrightSr: I’m going to have to put my older version back. This new one doesn’t cut me off….

AGplusone: Jon’s working hard on a test chat room … he and Francesco have been testing various types

DavidWrightSr: but just tells me after I tried to send it that it was ‘too long or complex’ ….

DavidWrightSr: and I have to do it all over again.

AGplusone: I get used to it. I know when it’s time to stop or go ….

AGplusone: and continue with the thought in the next buffer.

AGplusone: But that’s because, imagine it, the old rooms on AOL were even worse.

DavidWrightSr: I try that, but I tend to lose train if someone gets in before I finish

AGplusone: How worse I’d forgotten until Thursday when I attended a chat I was invited to attend about the con

AGplusone: There is a text squirter

SAcademy: Good afternoon. I think that Ward might come today.

AGplusone: Kicked myself when I realized I’d missed the allusions up to now.

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny.

AGplusone: Nice to see Ward if he comes

AGplusone: Dave and I were chatting about this and that

SAcademy: You’ve been to his site?

SAcademy: Classical Music Guide.

AGplusone: Yes, but I don’t know Dave has.

DavidWrightSr: I don’t know who we are talking about.

AGplusone: Mr. Ward is a friend of Ginny’s, old friend who has known her for years.

SAcademy: Ward Botsford. An old friend of mine. Heinlein fan

AGplusone: Right, Botsford ..

AGplusone: when we were trying to record CD roms from some old tapes Ginny had of RAH’

SAcademy: His wife spends her time looking at stuff on eBay

AGplusone: speeches, Ginny asked him to advise me on who to contact

DavidWrightSr: Did you get them recorded?

AGplusone: Btw, I’ll have the Denvention tape, the last one, back Monday

AGplusone: Yes

DavidWrightSr: Great. Are they going to be on sale?

AGplusone: We’re considering using them as bonus inducements for membership

DavidWrightSr: Retroactive? :-)

AGplusone: Rather Ginny is considering letting us do it. Of course!

AGplusone: Nice memorial labels … and all that.

AGplusone: “New” Heinlein!

SAcademy: Well, sort of.

AGplusone: As ‘new’ as can be … everyone’s excited about it.

SAcademy: Really?

AGplusone: Oh, yeah. Eveyone at that meeting last week said they were. Great inducement.

SAcademy: There is a thunderstorm in the distance. I could have to go offline anyminute.

SAcademy: That’s a nice font you’re using. What is it?

AGplusone: Is this better with mine, Ginny?

AGplusone: Geneva?

SAcademy: No, the other one is fine. I like it–but what ‘s it called?

AGplusone: What I was using is called Comic Sans

AGplusone: Comic Sans MS

SAcademy: Where do I find it?

AGplusone: It may be on the scroll bar right above the buffer. Does yours say what font you’re using now?

DavidWrightSr: You have to go into ‘edit preferences’ to see your font and to change it

SAcademy: It’s Arial. The default one.

AGplusone: If you see a name, there may be two little triangles going up and down … oh, it’s different I guess

AGplusone: on Clones. We can change ours right away, Like this

AGplusone: Or that

AGplusone: Or this

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, rub it in.

AGplusone: or that, which is Arial Black

AGplusone: never looked to see what the others look like

AGplusone: But any font I’ve got in my system folder I can use.

AGplusone: Some of which are terrible

AGplusone: But I like this one

AGplusone: it’s nice and clear

SAcademy: I found it.

AGplusone: Yes, you did!

DavidWrightSr: That’s funny. I tried to change and saw no effect.

AGplusone: well, what do you all think? Wait around to see if anyone shows up?

AGplusone: Do you see an effect if I change? For example here?

DavidWrightSr: yes

DavidWrightSr: I have seen all of your changes.

AGplusone: typewriter “courier”

AGplusone: Copperplate

AGplusone: Book antiqua

DavidWrightSr: I don’t see jane or bill online. Oz is there, but is still on AOL only.

DavidWrightSr: Ok REALLY rub it in :-)

AGplusone: It’s just flavoring …

DavidWrightSr: You can change right from the main screen?

AGplusone: Right on the main Screen

DavidWrightSr: Well, I have to do several steps, but haven’t found the trick to make it effective.

CMGPublisher has entered the room.

AGplusone: And change color if I wish

AGplusone: Hi,

CMG

SAcademy: Gentlemen, this is Ward Botsford. David Silver and David Wright.

CMGPublisher: Hi!

AGplusone: Nice to ‘see’ you!

CMGPublisher: Likewise!

AGplusone: We got the CD roms done … most of them, and I’ll get the last one this monday

SAcademy: Ward, click on file above, and you will get a pulldown menu with “create shhortcut” on it. Click on t

DavidWrightSr: I did it

SAcademy: Click on that to be able to get back here.

AGplusone: Yep, you did

DavidWrightSr: Is this Ward?

AGplusone: Am I showing up bold, or regular?

SAcademy: Yes, it is.

SAcademy: regular.

AGplusone: :-)

AGplusone: okay, I’ll go to bold

DavidWrightSr: Bold is too much for me

SAcademy: Happy making?

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ward. I was just hearing good things from David and Ginny about you

SAcademy: Creat shortcut will put it on your desktop, Ward.

CMGPublisher: Good things? Well that seems promising!

CMGPublisher: Fine.

SAcademy: Would you please boldface?

CMGPublisher: What’s the Chat Topic today?

SAcademy: At the top of the writ in place. Second item “B”

AGplusone: Were talking about making movies of RAH’s alien characters and whether that could be done

AGplusone: today

SAcademy: I don’t know. David?

AGplusone: but not much interest

SAcademy: Bill said he’d come.

AGplusone: Oz should be in shortly too

CMGPublisher: What RAH movies need first and formost is not special effects. It’s a grade A script.

SAcademy: Right you are!!!

AGplusone: absolutely … today I called the ‘kid’ — a thirty-year-old who was doing the CDs

SAcademy: But that won’t happen as long as they use Neumeier etc.

AGplusone: I’d given him a copy of Glory Road to read because he’d read scifi but never any Heinlein.

AGplusone: He loved it, and told me so, and then asked: Heinlein wrote that movie I saw, Starship Troopers…

AGplusone: so I told him, not Heinlein, that was Verhoeven. Let me give you an extra copy of Troopers I just

AGplusone: happen to have, and you’ll see the difference.

CMGPublisher: RAH would have thrown up if he saw that … that …

SAcademy: You can say that again!

SAcademy: That scene where the teacher got the trooper pinned by the hand. Ugh

AGplusone: There’s so much of a difference …

DavidWrightSr: Disgusting is too mild a word

SAcademy: well, at least Verhoeven got what he wanted.

CMGPublisher: It’s not that it was disgusting so much as the script was written by a bad computer with a stomach

SAcademy: I thhink he stood over the script writers and told them what to do.

DavidWrightSr: You mean. He likes to be ‘scorned’ by RAH fans :-)

CMGPublisher: problem.

AGplusone: try an invite to Major Oz, please Dave

DavidWrightSr: Done

SAcademy: Well, gentlemen, there aren’t an more films being prepared now.

CMGPublisher: I assume you are all AOL folks?

Major oz has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Not me :-)

AGplusone: the question I always use … no, … hi, Oz, gotcha

SAcademy: Greetings.

Major oz: AHHHHH, that was a ride through cyberspace. Hi everyone.

AGplusone: I used to have was whether technical ability would be adequate to convey one of RAH’s aliens, like

AGplusone: Willis, for example, but ever since I saw R2D2 I’ve felt it could easily.

AGplusone: We see harder stuff done on TV series these days.

DavidWrightSr: The problem I see with trying to make any move out of Robert’s works is that the visual….

AGplusone:

CMG is Ward Botsford an old friend of Ginny’s Oz

DavidWrightSr: media doesn’t leave anything to the imagination and doesn’t leave room for …

Major oz: So……we are sticking with sliens?

DavidWrightSr: forming your own questions and images…

Major oz: Glad to meet you, Ward

CMGPublisher: Am I, thank you.

SAcademy: Sorry I should have made the intro

DavidWrightSr: which was a hallmark of Roberts works

AGplusone: The image I always had the biggest problems with were the Martians of any one of them …

AGplusone: Willis and the rest in the juveniles were usually depicted pretty well on covers

Major oz: Sliens?…..what are sliens…? Aliens, then is the subject?

AGplusone: Sir Isaac, for example …

SAcademy: How do you feel about the Mother Thing?

AGplusone: I could never visualize her well

AGplusone: more of an aura … a presence …

DavidWrightSr: My image of her is something like a seal with hands

SAcademy: Furry and cuddly

SAcademy: Or the flat cats?

Major oz: say what?

AGplusone: Flat cats were easy … well described …

stephenveiss has entered the room.

AGplusone: and when they did the ‘tribble’ episode on STrek, I recognized them right away

AGplusone: Hi, Stephen … welcome

Major oz: To me, RAH stressed the “human-ness” of the aliens,

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Stephen

Major oz: whereas most authors stress threir differences.

stephenveiss: hiya

Major oz: yo, stephen……

AGplusone: I always felt the flat cats were little furry pancakes floating about like flying saucers

DavidWrightSr: That was the drawing in one of the books. with little beady eyes

Major oz: I say them as fuzzy flounders

Major oz: sa”w”

AGplusone: yes, the drawings in the books, the juveniles, shaped them in our mind

SAcademy: Exactly right. Judy-Lynn had some made like that with three eyes. About an inch and a hlaf big.

CMGPublisher: L. Sprague de Camp wrote the best very short essay on RAH & his writing.

DavidWrightSr: Aside from ‘wormfaces’, ‘slugs in PM’, ‘skinnies’ and ‘bugs’. All of RAH’s aliens were friendly

LAdyS122 has entered the room.

AGplusone: The hobgoblins and the horses in Starman Jones, and the big thing that came up and ate uncle Steve in

AGplusone: Time for the Stars

SAcademy: Greetings.

AGplusone: that was scary

AGplusone: Hi, Lady

DavidWrightSr: I knew I’d forget some :-)

LAdyS122: Hi

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

Lenjazz has entered the room.

AGplusone: And the trash pigs that ate was was left over. I thought Starman Jones had the best adventure…

Major oz: Hi, Lady; Hi, Bill

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill. Just started reading your book. Good going.

AGplusone: possibities of all of them, from alien standpoints

BPRAL22169: Yo. thanks.

AGplusone: Hi, Len, LTNC

CMGPublisher: Sorry but I have to go. Nice having meet you all!

DenvToday has entered the room.

Lenjazz: Yeah… been under deadlines…

SAcademy: Hello Bill. CMG Publisher is my friend Ward Botsford. Bill Patterson

DenvToday: Hello everybody!

DavidWrightSr: Now we are starting to get somewhere. I thought tonight might be a bust. Welcome everyone

AGplusone: We’re talking about movies and making movies from the stories with aliens

Major oz: Bye, Ward; Hi,Denv

BPRAL22169: Pleased to “meet” you — I’ve been to your music site.

CMGPublisher: ‘Bye

CMGPublisher has left the room.

AGplusone: bye Ward, thanks for coming

Lenjazz: AG… yes, I saw the meeting notice…

SAcademy: Ward had a dinner appointment with someone.

AGplusone: not many replies … have you had any experience writing screenplays with ‘aliens’ Len?

Lenjazz: No, not aliens…

AGplusone: How much does the writer try to define the ‘creatures’ if you know?

AGplusone: Or is it all left up to ‘fx’ …

AGplusone: How would you keep Willis, for example, from coming out looking like a b.e.m.

AGplusone: instead of the basketball with three legs he’s supposed to …

AGplusone: look like

SAcademy: Horrible!

Lenjazz: Ah, Willis… he’d need to be like E.T.

Major oz: Would it not be necessary to develop the character of an alien as much as any other character?

AGplusone: I think with Willis you would have to develop his character

SAcademy: Willis started life as a tape recorder.

Major oz: Is there more to that story…………

Lenjazz: On the screen, I think we would have to be allowed to see the world through his eyes occasionally…

AGplusone: how did that happen, Ginny?

AGplusone: I think so, particularly when Jim gets to view the world from Willis’s perspective in the cave

SAcademy: Well we had just got one, and Robert used Willis to record anything he heard.

DavidWrightSr: Well there was the ‘movie’ sequence that Jim experienced through Willis’ eyes

AGplusone: Actually named the tape recorder Willis?

SAcademy: No, he didn’t go wuite that far.

SAcademy: quite

AGplusone: … but it became Willis after it was written? LOL!

DavidWrightSr: Was it a Webcor wire recorder? :-)

SAcademy: The tape recorder is long gone, but Willis is still around.

AGplusone: that was my guess too

AGplusone: Trying to remember what they were brand named

DavidWrightSr: My first experience with recorders was around ’47 with an RCA wire recorder

SAcademy: It was, and the darned wire kept getting all tangled up.

Lenjazz: Funny, I was thinking Red Planet might be good project for a studio now with new interest in Mars…

AGplusone: There was a little semispherical one on a stand that used tape reels, little thin reels

Lenjazz: … not to mention the recent Mars flicks were duds.

AGplusone: R2D2 was Willis, sort of, without the fur and standing up higher …

AGplusone: when he expands some of those nasty little tools when they’re trapped in the Death Star

Major oz: re: Mars……….My most believeable alien were the Martians in Double Star

SAcademy: Well, Willis was a “bouncer” ball-shaped.

AGplusone: and R2D2 was a ball atop a cylinder

AGplusone: made of metal of course

Major oz: I always saw them as green traffic cones with arms and legs.

DavidWrightSr: And not capable of growing to a full size Martian :-)

Lenjazz: OZ… okay, I’ll bite… what makes an alien “believable?”

Major oz: ……or tenacles, of course.

SAcademy: I think that Willis was covered with fur.

AGplusone: so did I …

Lenjazz: Willis was furry.

AGplusone: Willis was believable … to me when I read them. His personality

AGplusone: so too was Lummox

Major oz: believable as developed characters, not in the sense of plausibility

LAdyS122 has left the room.

Lenjazz: ah… believability in that they have human attributes?

AGplusone: And o’ Lummie was a dragon so far as I could tell … without the wings

Major oz: not necessarily

Lenjazz: Then what?

AGplusone: and then she grew arms

Major oz: only that the author (or screenwriter, if an adopter) develop the character so that

SAcademy: More like an alligator.

Major oz: it inspires interest

Major oz: The “kind” of interest is not important, only that it be there.

stephenveiss has left the room.

AGplusone: Both Lummox and Willis were ‘funny’

AGplusone: up until it got serious …

Lenjazz: I’m trying to to think of an example that fits “interest” but doesn’t involve some sort of humanity.

Major oz: It can be feared, loathed, loved, etc. but must hold interest.

Major oz: ……as a necessary part of the whole tale.

Lenjazz: As in “Aliens?”

DavidWrightSr: I seem to recall a promotion hook that the publisher used for the juvies,…..

Major oz: sure

AGplusone: as an example of feared, I never had trouble visualizing the horses in Starman Jones

Major oz: that was one bad dude.

AGplusone: Horses with big teeth

DavidWrightSr: that Robert Heinlein always had an interesting alien.

Major oz: VERY well developed

AGplusone: sharp teeth

DavidWrightSr: Very sharp

AGplusone: canivore centaurs

AGplusone: carnivor

Major oz: Niven’s puppateers have complex development and, as such, are on-going interests.

Lenjazz: Question — Aliens were supposedly technologically intelligent… but portrayed as animal like…

DavidWrightSr: I’ve always been interested in the contrast between the slugs in PM and the ones in Citizen….

Major oz: puppateeers belie that

DavidWrightSr: totally different … but similar\

Major oz:

AGplusone: /ga Len … continue the question

Major oz: animal like is, somewhat, a default. It they ain’t human what are they — animals

Lenjazz: Well, RAH seemed to always to have intelligent, non-human aliens doing very human things… as in PM

Major oz: So I discard the “animal like” label and use, simply, aliens.

Major oz: My earlier point.

Major oz: H stressed their human-ness

Major oz: Most others stress their non human-ness

Lenjazz: … how is it we mostly get animals who are supposedly intelligent doing animal like things now?

Major oz: ?

Lenjazz: What? Animal like = alien?

AGplusone: It seems to say that the ‘intelligence’ would be human-like …

AGplusone: what if it was merely incomprehensible?

Major oz: I don’t know what you mean by “animal-like”

AGplusone: or the alien objects were incomprehensible to us?

Lenjazz: Animal like = not necessarily intelligent in the human sense.

Major oz: A Kzinti will flick its tail, even though it surpasses human technology.

Major oz: Is that doing something “animal-like”?

AGplusone: The thing in “Alien” the movie just seems to want to kill everything … and spread

Major oz: EEEEVILLLLL

Major oz: and well developed.

AGplusone: the biological imperative

AGplusone: like the bugs of Troopers ….

Major oz: nit pick……it wants biological hosts

AGplusone: for incubation

Major oz: yeah

Lenjazz: Yeah… but these Aliens supposedly build space ships — or their forefathers did. Inconsistant.

Major oz: inconsistent with what?

Major oz: You can be evil and technological

Lenjazz: Inconsistant with being intelligent.

Major oz: Hitler

AGplusone: Whereas, RAH postulated that if they built spacetravel they’d have something in common

AGplusone: in their aims with humans–they’d compete?

AGplusone: or grok until it was time to make another

AGplusone: Fifth Planet ruins

AGplusone: or wait until Gods came flying in and said: don’t study space travel no more, like the Jocks?

BPRAL22169: Kzin, singular. Kzinti is plural. Scream and leap.

Major oz: I think it was the genius of RAH that he didn’t dwell on aliens. His stories were about the …..

Major oz: ……human condition. He used aliens when it suited him to make his point.

Lenjazz: RAH knew the danger in aliens, or humans for that matter, lie in their use of intelligence.

BPRAL22169: Well, even alien stories are ultimately about human beings.

Major oz: He left it to others to write about bug-eyed mossters.

Major oz: That some of these others did it well does not detract from His aliens.

Lenjazz: Animals were the least of man’s worries in space.

AGplusone: I don’t remember a bug-eyed monster, mostly I recall species potentially in competition

BPRAL22169: BEM stories are one-note; he liked full symphonic effects.

AGplusone: either on attack, or watching us carefully, like the cops on the beat, or easily

AGplusone: annoyed and maybe swinging a bigger club than we ever imagined

AGplusone: and it was therefore up to us to ‘get along’

AGplusone: very unlikely we’d erradicate them

AGplusone: Unless they’re long-toothed horses …

Major oz:

Lenjazz: Now talking Mules… I always like the idea of that.

AGplusone: which they will when they come back to get Sgt. Robert’s body

Major oz: Buck………perhaps my favorite character.

AGplusone: I think, next to Jerry, yes … I’d want to see Jerry done first.

Lenjazz: Now there’s a bridge between man and animal… almost alien like… yes?

AGplusone: But these ‘aliens’ are enhanced ‘animals’ … any difference … ?

AGplusone: almost man

AGplusone: or maybe, as the title says: “Man”

Major oz: Len, I still can’t get a grasp on how you are using “animal”.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

Major oz: yo, oak

OakMan 7111: sorry I’m late

Lenjazz: Oz… as in not having human type awareness, compassion, intelligent aggresson

Lenjazz: my typing stinks…

AGplusone: Is your point, Len, that unless the ‘animals’ are almost manlike, there’s really nothing for a screen-

AGplusone: writer to do?

Major oz: So the Kzin are animal AND alien?

AGplusone: No character development, etc.?

AGplusone: Thinking of “Alien, My Enemy”

Lenjazz: No, but audiences generally have problems with Aliens that are not human like…

KMurphy165 has entered the room.

Major oz: David……that’s Enemy Mine

AGplusone: E.g., who really cared how many of the bugs Verhoxers’ troopers blasted …?

AGplusone: which is another reason why his ‘satire’ doesn’t work

Major oz: So that’s what they AREN’T. What are they?

Lenjazz: Yep… we don’t care about bugs.

OakMan 7111: we weren’t meant to, were we?

Lenjazz: Don’t think so.

BPRAL22169: I see — “beasts” versus “animals.”

Major oz: You and I know that, Oak, but Verhoxen never figured it out.

AGplusone: According the apologists we were …. good old Doogie Hoosier blasting ’em as POWs was supposed to be

AGplusone: terrible

BPRAL22169: What, you don’t care about galactic bug farts as a means of waging war?

BPRAL22169: incidentaly, they can place that scene in the dictionary as an illustration of “bathos.”

Major oz: now, now, this isn’t afh

OakMan 7111: Well, I care, Bill – especially thge second time the space Navy bunches

OakMan 7111: up to make it easy for the farts to kill everybody

BPRAL22169: yes, close enough for the ships to bump each other.

AGplusone: and an analog to the Nazi’s conducting medical experiences on inmates or the Japanese doing the same

BPRAL22169: “But I’m not bitter–”

AGplusone: experiments

AGplusone: but did the ‘shoot ’em up audience’ think so, heck no.

Lenjazz: It was the intelligent bugs (read: human attributes) that Doogie feared.

OakMan 7111: tough to feel sorry for em when they don’t have brains

Lenjazz: Exactly.

AGplusone: and as far as I was concerned, his fooling around with that poor feret was the worst thing in the movie,…

Major oz: Intelligence is NOT a uniquely human attribute (in the SF world)

AGplusone: because I didn’t care about the bugs at all.

AGplusone: A feret I can see as a human pet, mistreated.

Lenjazz: Worst thing in the movie was what’s her name’s silly grin.

OakMan 7111: she didn’t have brains either

OakMan 7111: on the other hand, as Ginny has said, the movie sold lots of books so some folks may have seen the

OakMan 7111: light

AGplusone: That was a feret that sociopath was experimenting on in the beginning, wasn’t it?

Lenjazz: Remember stobor in… oh my God, I just realized what the acronym for Tunnel in the Sky is!!!

AGplusone: lol

Lenjazz: How did miss THAT?

OakMan 7111: LOL – tell him what the original name was

Major oz: I gotta run, folks. Leaving Mon morn for a reunion / fishing trip. Back in late July/early Aug

OakMan 7111: Bye Oz – keep your powder dry

AGplusone: School house in the sky

Major oz: Gotta clear the phone lines.

AGplusone: See ya, Oz

DavidWrightSr: You mean ‘School House in the Sky’

DavidWrightSr: :-)

Lenjazz: LOL!

Major oz has left the room.

AGplusone: even better, eh?

Lenjazz: Ginny knows this?

Lenjazz: Is someone pulling my naive leg?

DavidWrightSr: Len. Don’t feel bad. It was 25 years before I realized that tanstaafl was an…

OakMan 7111: nope

DavidWrightSr: acronym, TANSTAAFL and not a foreign word

AGplusone: she’s asleep now … I suppose, afk

OakMan 7111: She knows

AGplusone: but I doubt that she’d missed it after all these years

AGplusone: what with John Thomases, and raising John Thomases

Lenjazz: Was tunnel really names school house in the sky? Seriously?

Lenjazz: named.

AGplusone: Dead serious

Lenjazz: As the kids say, KEWL!

billdennis2nd has entered the room.

billdennis2nd: Hello folks

OakMan 7111: hi William

billdennis2nd: I almost missed the chat!

AGplusone: Hi, Bill … Farmer in the Sky was about the ‘fits’ Bill Leamer had … and didn’t

AGplusone: until he was broken down like the stone and recombined into fruitful soil

AGplusone: [or at least that’s my theory, and I ain’t admitting I’m wrong]

billdennis2nd: Thats the spirit, David.

billdennis2nd: It’s a sign of weakness.

Lenjazz: Does anyone know if Rick Smolan did anything with the rights to Tunnel?

OakMan 7111: I hope Jane never tells the libraries she’d like to place TITS there…

SAcademy: Yes. He owns it now. He’s looking for financing.

billdennis2nd: I reread tunnel for the first time since I was in grade school. It was like I had never read it before

billdennis2nd: I have come to the conclusion Tunnel would make a hell of a movie

AGplusone: [actually I’m really proud of that little metaphore I think I discovered]

Lenjazz: Ah, thanks. I had heard he bought the screen rights… did he write the screenplay?

SAcademy: He’s planning to oversee everthing that’s done himself, and keep it true to the book

billdennis2nd: I met a four once. I would have asked her out, but I was holding out for at least a six.

OakMan 7111: ?

billdennis2nd: “met a four” = metaphore. get it? hahahahaha

OakMan 7111: :'(

Lenjazz: That’s great news. Tunnel deserves great treatment.

AGplusone: urk

billdennis2nd: bad puns are my specialty

SAcademy: The trouble is that no one wants to back him because he hasn’t made a movie before.

OakMan 7111: What is his budget

AGplusone: If Tunnel was kept ‘true to the book’ there

SAcademy: I don’t have any idea.

Lenjazz: I understand Rick’s problem. I’ve had a script optioned, but producers are wary of first time scribes

billdennis2nd: That’s the trouble. Hollywood NEVER keeps things true to the book.

AGplusone: would be few ways to make the beasts human like … and the stobor would be scary, like the maribunta

AGplusone: in that Heston movie a couple generations back

AGplusone: the jungle ants

billdennis2nd: The stobor could easilly be done via CGI

OakMan 7111: Omega Man or Planet of the Apes?

AGplusone: no, before then

Lenjazz: Rick’s main problem will be keeping that creative control… every producer has his 2 cents.

AGplusone: explorers in South America … ants start coming on a migration …

billdennis2nd: I think I saw that movie on Turner Movie Classics

AGplusone: nothing stops them … Heston ends up making a stand … burns up his furniture, a la Cowperstown, etc

billdennis2nd: Has “Destination Moon” ever appeared on TMC or AMC?

SAcademy: Sure, even the banker on DM was writing script changes.

billdennis2nd: I gotta say it “Cowperstown” is a great name for a city.

AGplusone: Heston owns a plantation … rich … ain’t going

AGplusone: everyone else runs

AGplusone: Ava Gardner I think was female lead

billdennis2nd: I saw “angry Red Planet” last night on AMC. What a lousy movie.

Lenjazz: I wish Rick the best… he’ll need an independent company with dollars…hard to find.

OakMan 7111: I saw the last ten minutes – what a lousy movie

SAcademy: Aren’t they all loust?

billdennis2nd: You would think with Starship Troopers being a hit, he would be able to find financing.

billdennis2nd: That may be the only good thing to come of that movie.

AGplusone: refering to the one with the lead actor the one played “Iceman” in the Cruise movie

billdennis2nd: There are a lot of good science fiction movies out there. It angers me that the only ones they repeat

billdennis2nd: are the “campy” ones.

billdennis2nd: No. That is “Red Planet.”.

OakMan 7111: The good ones may still be selling on casette

billdennis2nd: I am refering to the one done in the 40s or 50s I think.

BPRAL22169: I think that was just Red Planet; Angry Red Planet was a 50’s movie.

Lenjazz: Tunnel is a smaller, human story… not big bug, FX pic.

OakMan 7111: I think you can still buy Forbidden Planet, for instance

billdennis2nd: Angry Red Planet’s “mars” scenes are with overbearing red background,

billdennis2nd: I love Forbidden Planet.

billdennis2nd: Star TRek owes to much to Forbidden Planet.

OakMan 7111: And FP owes it all to Shakespeare

billdennis2nd: Tunnel has some heavy special effects, action scenes, though.

Lenjazz: The interesting thing about Tunnel, is I think it migh play very well to gen-x and gen-y crowd…

Lenjazz: …if it were pitched properly.

billdennis2nd: Everything owes much to Shalespeare.

AGplusone: I think it would too ….

AGplusone: it’s adventurous

OakMan 7111: Is their attention span long enough?

AGplusone: it has some good characters … lots of young faces

AGplusone: some sub plots

AGplusone: that could be exploited

billdennis2nd: I doubt they even teach much Shakespeare anymore.

AGplusone: politically correct cast

billdennis2nd: TRue, David.

AGplusone: even a sister-soldier that would appeal to the fems

Lenjazz: Tunnel is about young people discovering themselve and make huge political statements, amidst action!

Lenjazz: still lousy typist.

billdennis2nd: Money interests don’t give a flying rat’s ass about political statements.

Lenjazz: The woman are as tough as the men (Tomb Raider)….

AGplusone: exactly … play it as an upbeat counterstatement to that Golding thing

Lenjazz: Guns aren’t as effective as brains and knives…

AGplusone: Sure, Carolyn is tougher, and Jackie is smarter

billdennis2nd: OK, want to play dreamcasting?

billdennis2nd: Rod=?

Lenjazz: Heroes can beat up and STILL WIN!

billdennis2nd: Jackie=?

Lenjazz: can be beat up and still win … geez…

OakMan 7111: I thought you were just being PC, Len

KMurphy165 has left the room.

AGplusone: And you could play suspense with “who be da Stobor?”

AGplusone: a la Freddy Kruger ….

Lenjazz: No… if Rick didn’t already won Tunnel, I’d be writing it right now instead of a cyber-porn thriller

OakMan 7111: Oh yeah – do Stobor always through their eyes – never see them

OakMan 7111: only the fear in the eyes of those they attack

billdennis2nd: I still think Stobor should be a name of a Vulcan on Star Trek.

AGplusone: Exactly … maybe it was the Stobor that got the guy with the dog first off

AGplusone: Johann

Lenjazz: At least not see the stobor for awhile… like the critters in Pitch Black.

AGplusone: Yes.

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Yo Sean

AGplusone: Just the body going down and “crunch, crunch, crunch…”

SAcademy: Hello

OakMan 7111: and the whimper of the dog

Gaeltachta: Yo…….

billdennis2nd: Howdy Sean.

AGplusone: GMTA I was thinking whine

AGplusone: and a big death squeak!

Lenjazz: Remember how long it took to see the shark in Jaws. All we saw were the results of its presence

Gaeltachta: Hello all, SA, Bill, Jon, David……….

AGplusone: or squeal

AGplusone: Hi, Sean

OakMan 7111: Bill Stobor is probably a Dragon Rider

Gaeltachta: Today is Alians and movies?

Gaeltachta: Aliens……

AGplusone: yep … we’re thinking on Stobor …

AGplusone: slurp, slurp ….

Gaeltachta: Good topic…….. what are we thinking?

Lenjazz: Anyway… got to get back to detectives, murder, and web cam girls… have fun everybody.

OakMan 7111: and David is really getting into it

Lenjazz: Bye.

OakMan 7111: bye Len

Berllan5UD has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Bye

Lenjazz has left the room.

Berllan5UD: hi all

AGplusone: Hello David Tibbetts!

AGplusone: LTNC

billdennis2nd: brb

BPRAL22169: Revolving door here.

Berllan5UD: thanks for invite. not stop long. off to bed

AGplusone: Wales is what AM now in the morn?

AGplusone: They’ve just woken up in the land of Oz …

Gaeltachta: Nup…… I’m 8.30 am now (sunday)

OakMan 7111: I want to get the stage rights for “The Long Watch” – write a one-man play

AGplusone: what makes you think I wake up before noon on Sunday

AGplusone: have to go to mass if I get up earlier …

OakMan 7111: the time Board meets are scheduled for makes me think it

AGplusone: Gaeltachta: I would love to see a script for Tunnel. I guess one is in development SA?

AGplusone: What do you think about aliens and movie development for RAH works, Dave …

OakMan 7111: Although its fun to read David whimper piteously about not having had breakfast

SAcademy: I don’t know. Maybe.

Gaeltachta: I’ve been on a long walk and had scrambled eggs already.

OakMan 7111: Kangaroo eggs?

SAcademy: LOL

Gaeltachta: They weren’t furry…… so , no :-)

AGplusone: I think Len would love to hook up with Rick Smolan and give it a shot.

SAcademy: No reason not to try.

billdennis2nd: Sean, if it’s so early Sunday, why aren’t you in chruch? 😉

AGplusone: The other possibility I’d love to see made is Starman Jones ….

Gaeltachta: Not in me Bill.

OakMan 7111: Absolutely, though the basic plot point would have to be reworked

AGplusone: I think if they can make beer commercials with Clydesdales, they can do those meat-eating horses

AGplusone: and the balloon hoggoblins, etc.

AGplusone: And Sam’s last stand is a crowd pleaser

OakMan 7111: They do Centaurs in the Hercules TV show

Gaeltachta: Basically with CGI, anything you can imagine can be done now.

AGplusone: The entire thing about the ‘deserter makes good’ is a sympathetic plot

AGplusone: but someone like Alan Richman would steal the show, if cast as Sam

billdennis2nd: But bad CGI is really noticible.

OakMan 7111: I was thinking Kevin Spacey

Gaeltachta: *If* it’s bad, yes.

AGplusone: CGI gets better every TV series

AGplusone: I watched Paying It Forward last night, anyone else see it?

OakMan 7111: Though classic Star Trek will live in my memory – its painful to watch now

AGplusone: Spacey did a good job in that.

OakMan 7111: plywood desks and pictures on the walls

Gaeltachta: Haven’t seen it. But I don’t see Spacey as Sam. I could be wrong.

AGplusone: There’s a certain weakness in Spacey that might translate well into a Sam Anderson, or Roberts, or

AGplusone: Richards, I forget his name, exactly

OakMan 7111: He’s a helluva actor – did you see “Usual Suspects?”

OakMan 7111: or “American Beauty?”

Gaeltachta: Yes, he’s a great actor……. just seems too modern or something, if that makes sense.

AGplusone: But he’d have to hang around with Dale Dye or somebody to learn to be a marine sergeant

OakMan 7111: too modern for 2356?

AGplusone: Jack Webb pulled it off.

Berllan5UD: well, folks, i’m away. catch you all again sooner rather than later

OakMan 7111: g’bye

AGplusone: He had that same nice softness before Dragnet and the DI

Gaeltachta: Yes, in a way…….. But what do I know.

Berllan5UD has left the room.

OakMan 7111: U know more than you pretend to, Sean…but we have ways of making you talk….

Gaeltachta: “I know nuthin'”……..

AGplusone: Funny, tho … there’s two types of alien or augmented animal stories

OakMan 7111: “You have relatives in the old country?”

AGplusone: and Len’s point before he left was: the ones with human motivations are more challanging

OakMan 7111: ga David

Gaeltachta: In Ireland? Yes, but very distant…….. 3rd cousins……..

AGplusone: to write about, but we’re talking about the animal beasts as making a more salable movie

AGplusone: stobor, and meat-eating horses

OakMan 7111: Campbell once challenged his stable of writers to come up with a totally alien creature that was

OakMan 7111: understandable without being at all human

AGplusone: who came up with what Jon?

OakMan 7111: I think Von Vogt came up with his hunter creature

OakMan 7111: damn, i cant remember the name of the crature or the book

AGplusone: define them please

OakMan 7111: Black destroyer!

OakMan 7111: yes!

AGplusone: inexorable like the Black Death?

OakMan 7111: Story’s plot was similar to Alien

OakMan 7111: stowaway creature starts hunting down the crew

AGplusone: Rats—>fleas—>bacilii—>infect humans, humans die …

OakMan 7111: He was, iirc correctly a telepathic Panther with an IQ higher than ours and a total carnivore

AGplusone: What about the Martians in Wells’ story, Bill …. what were they like

AGplusone: War of the Worlds

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of van vogts. ‘Voyage of the Space Beagle’ also.

AGplusone: They did some Star Trek ones where the other beings were always on such a higher plane than us …

AGplusone: and remote … and we were dust under their chariot wheels, unimportant

OakMan 7111: did a quickl lookup – Black Destroyer was serialization of Voyage of the Space beagle

OakMan 7111: creatures name was Coerl

AGplusone: like the Martians in Stranger …. content to ‘grok’ us, then destroy us when the time was ripe

AGplusone: like Gods from afar …

OakMan 7111: there were other stories in the Space beagle book. Black destroyer was one of them

DavidWrightSr: I thought so. Sounded familiar, but not by that title

AGplusone: That kind of portrayal has always been impossible … or rather stilted and phony

DavidWrightSr: Van Vogt went from a low-level threat to a galaxy-wide threat in that book.

AGplusone: like the old Jimmy Stewart Xmas favorite

AGplusone: sending down angels like Mike …

AGplusone: imagine doing the Glaroon …

AGplusone: what’s he up to … ?

OakMan 7111: I was fascinated by the appearance of both a Christ analog in Mike and a Mohammed analog in

OakMan 7111: Paul Atreides apprearing within a year of each other

Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: Or meeting the Jock’s god, finally, Laz goes in and says: “What do you know I don’t …?”

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: wb Sean

Gaeltachta: I lost my cursor……..

Gaeltachta: There it is!

billdennis2nd: I used to be a cursor … but Mom washed my mouth out with soap and broke me of the habit.

DJedPar has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: I *knew* you would say that!

AGplusone: I’m trying to think of movies when they’ve portrayed either the Panthers like vanV’s

SAcademy: Hello /Denis

AGplusone: or the gods like maybe Steven Kings’ effectively

billdennis2nd: Hello Djed.

DJedPar: Hello Ginny… made it.

AGplusone: Hi, dennis

SAcademy: I see that you did.

DJedPar: Hi David

AGplusone: and trying to get a handle on how you’d portray a Martian like the one in Red Planet

AGplusone: Yoda?

AGplusone: Or a Merlin type?’

OakMan 7111: Yoda was the same character Pat Morita played in Karate Kid

billdennis2nd: More like the Vorlon from Babylon 5. Tall, silent, mysterious and wise.

OakMan 7111: only green

OakMan 7111: Gods in SF movies always seem to end up being children playing with us as if we are toys

billdennis2nd: I always saw the Red Planet Martians as tree-like.

billdennis2nd: Sort of like Ents from LOTR.

AGplusone: That new LOTR ought to be interesting to watch

OakMan 7111: In DoubleStar they definitely resemble trees

BPRAL22169: You mean Double Star?

billdennis2nd: Yeah. Maybe that is where I got the idea.

billdennis2nd: I am eagerly awaiting LOTR movie.

AGplusone: Brad just called me, Bill. We’ll get together for the set for the library Mon night

OakMan 7111: I picked up the painting of one of the covers of Red Planet, Bill I’ve got a pic on the website

billdennis2nd: Exactly how many Bills are there who frequent alt.fan.heinlein?

BPRAL22169: Exellent.

OakMan 7111: You’re the nicest

BPRAL22169: Far, far too many.

billdennis2nd: Bill Dennis, Bill Paterson, ?

DavidWrightSr: Too many Bills and too many Davids. Shoot every other one :-)

BPRAL22169: *curtsey*

SAcademy: Will someone please tell Denis how to create a shortcut? I can’t do it.

Gaeltachta: Just call everyone Bill……. Makes it easier!

DJedPar: Do I need it with the new Heinlein site?

BPRAL22169: In theFile pulldown menu there’s an option for “Create shortcut”

billdennis2nd: “It’s the Bill and Dave Show!”

BPRAL22169: It puts an icon onyour desktop.

BPRAL22169: *pffttt*

SAcademy: Thanks.

DJedPar: Ok. Thanks

BPRAL22169: You could put the new site into your Favorites. I don’t think a shortcut would do any good.

AGplusone: I’m just a spare Dave ….

billdennis2nd: Shouldn’t we all create profiles so we and newbies can keep each other straight?

AGplusone: shoot the other one, he’s the trouble maker

OakMan 7111: As far as the website goes, if you are using i.e. I”ll have a button up that will put it in your

OakMan 7111: favorites list

BPRAL22169: There’s two of him — Maikosht as well as Dwrighsr

DavidWrightSr: Split Personality

AGplusone: or we could nominate the one from Wales …

BPRAL22169: Need two bullets, and that might not be such a good idea — we’d never see our logs again!

DJedPar: The new site access worked perfectly tonite.

OakMan 7111: Well, thank goodness Ogden is such a rare name. No chance of that being a problem

AGplusone: suggest ten minute break ….

AGplusone: back at 20 past the hour … water cats?

billdennis2nd: yeah. I need one.

Gaeltachta: Coffee’s on…

billdennis2nd: brb

OakMan 7111: afk

Gaeltachta: afk? I probably should know that one?

AGplusone: We’ve had 13 new members, btw, sign up since last meeting

DavidWrightSr: Away from Keyboard

Gaeltachta: Thanks

AGplusone: to THS’s website

AGplusone: and some like Dennis logging in, who were already members, of course

Gaeltachta: How many members all together David?

AGplusone: 40

AGplusone: so it’s starting to snowball

Gaeltachta: Great work!

OakMan 7111: David, I switched to a new, faster entry for i.e. users today

AGplusone: and enough blood donors that it’s almost time to start the list of honor

AGplusone: that will always help … I’m amazed as the amount of improvements you put in Jon

OakMan 7111: Barry okayed that – so that should be done tomorrow

AGplusone: looks like Pix may be able to help too

billdennis2nd: back

OakMan 7111: I hope so, did you see my response?

AGplusone: even a blind pig finds acorns

AGplusone: Yes

OakMan 7111: She a really neat kid….is it okay to say that?

AGplusone: certainly

AGplusone: I’m trying to talk her into coming up to Philly for dinner

billdennis2nd: I signed up, but I have’t received an invoice yet.

OakMan 7111: what?

OakMan 7111: say it isn’t so bill

billdennis2nd: It’s true.

OakMan 7111: thats not your line, dammit

DavidWrightSr: I was going to ask about the bill. Is it supposed to come after we sign?

billdennis2nd: I cannot tell a lie.

OakMan 7111: ^%*^$%^#$^%!

billdennis2nd: Don’t say “bill”… call it an invoice.

billdennis2nd: 😉

OakMan 7111: Hmpf…Okay, luckily, we have records of such things

OakMan 7111: so I should in short order get to the bottom

billdennis2nd: So how much is it … $1.95 ?

OakMan 7111: Nope for you it’s only $500

Gaeltachta: Does the Society accept credit card payments yet?

billdennis2nd: Are you getting cheaky with me?

Gaeltachta: Or just cheques (checks)?

AGplusone: do you have Amex, Sean?

AGplusone: cheques work

Gaeltachta: Not Amex…… Visa.

OakMan 7111: Nope, but I accept Paypal, sean and could handle it on a pass thru or wait awhile and David will

OakMan 7111: have us set up on PayPal

billdennis2nd: Will you take Diner’s Club?

billdennis2nd: 😉

Gaeltachta: I can do PayPal…… No probs.

DJedPar: The new site is extraordinary. Congratulations are in order. Bravo! All of you.

OakMan 7111: kewl – save it for a little till we get it set up – you can be our first tester

CHASGRAFT has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Ok……

AGplusone: Hi, charlie, how you been

BPRAL22169: I quite agree about the new site.

Gaeltachta: Email me Jon, when it’s ready to test.

OakMan 7111: Duh! David we should have an announcement of when the next chat is and what its about on the website

billdennis2nd: I have to say, when I first saw it (after being offline for about six months) my jaw dropped and my m

AGplusone: Any preferences on subject ….

billdennis2nd: mouth watered.

AGplusone: ????

AGplusone: anyone

BPRAL22169: I think we’re skipping the next one.

CHASGRAFT: Not too bad. Yardwork, today.

BPRAL22169: It’s scheduled over the Westercon weekend.

AGplusone: Ah, that’s a decent reason then I suppose.

BPRAL22169: I can’t find my calendar, but I think Andy Thornton’s is after that.

AGplusone: Gives us more time to work on whatever comes after that.

AGplusone: If you had Andy post it … then we could start working on it.

AGplusone: What was his subject?

OakMan 7111: I dont think there’s a full evening in it, but I wanted to do a comparison between Legion and SiaSL

BPRAL22169: Well — it’s in my calendar . . .

OakMan 7111: sometime

AGplusone: ‘Legion’?

billdennis2nd: One of these days, I am going write about similarities in fiction of Heinlein and Philip Jose Farmer.

AGplusone: Lost Legion, ah

billdennis2nd: There are more than one would think.

OakMan 7111: I am having a Senior Moment – Long Novella about three who discover how

OakMan 7111: to makethemselves into supermen?

BPRAL22169: “Lost Legacy.”

AGplusone: aka Lost Legacy

AGplusone: The Mark Twain, Ambrose Bierce one …

OakMan 7111: Yep that’s the one. I could make a case for LL being a study for Stranger

BPRAL22169: Here’s the entry for July 19: “Friday, Farnham’s Freehold, “Gulf,”

BPRAL22169: and Racism.” Hosted by Andy Thornton

billdennis2nd: I know that the uncut version of Stranger is dedicated to Philip Jose Farmer,

AGplusone: why don’t we schedule that one after Thornton, and see how the guest visits that are hanging go after

AGplusone: that.

Gaeltachta: Sounds interesting Bill…….

BPRAL22169: That’s August 2, 4. Jon to host?

OakMan 7111: urgle

Gaeltachta: I think there is something in that……

TAWN3 has entered the room.

AGplusone: great with me

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn

TAWN3: Hi everybody

Gaeltachta: Hi Tawn

billdennis2nd: Farmer and Heinlein were both influenced by Mark Twain. Both authors used Twain as a character,

TAWN3: Sean, david, David, Sa,evryone else!

BPRAL22169: Your issues are in the mail.

SAcademy: Hello Tawn

OakMan 7111: Hi Tawn

billdennis2nd: Of course Farmer to a greater extent in the Riverworld series.

TAWN3: OK, Thanks. I have a few emails to read yet, yu may be one of them.

BPRAL22169: I think it’s simpler than that —

Gaeltachta: Did Heinlein use Twain as a character?

BPRAL22169: Farmer was the first SF writer to get away with writing about sex.

billdennis2nd: He appeared briefly in To Sail beyong the Sunset

TAWN3: NotB?

Gaeltachta: Ok.

AGplusone: maybe the character in “If this goes on … ” too

BPRAL22169: Explicitly, I mean.

billdennis2nd: Well, Heinlein wrote about it first. Farmer was more explicit.

AGplusone: the one who dies after the speech about liberty

BPRAL22169: Yes.

BPRAL22169: I think Twain is mentioned a couple of times in “Lost Legacy,” isn’t he?

AGplusone: I think he is …

billdennis2nd: I believe so too.

BPRAL22169: Or maybe it was just the notes.

BPRAL22169: When it comes time, tap me for the Lost Legacy notes — I transcribed them into my computer.

billdennis2nd: Both Farmer and Heinlein wrote about heroic characters, although Farmer dug into their

Gaeltachta: There is a strong “Twain” connection, I agree.

billdennis2nd: inner psyches

AGplusone: I haven’t read any Riverworld in years

billdennis2nd: THanks Bill.

billdennis2nd: I interviewed Farmer once… about 15 years ago when I was a student.

BPRAL22169: Was that your topic, WD?

Gaeltachta: I read all the Riverworld books years ago. They were pretty good.

BPRAL22169: I got it wrong – thought it was Jon

TAWN3: Hated Riverworld. No conclusion to any of the boks, like a movie set up for a sequel.

billdennis2nd: There is a Riverworld series in the works, supposedly.

Gaeltachta: The series did conclude, eventually.

billdennis2nd: I read the Riverworld series in one huge chunk when I was in high school.

billdennis2nd: I need to reread them, the first three at least.

OakMan 7111: I think we’re doing Legacy in Aug, Bill P – with me as host

BPRAL22169: ‘scuse – who is hosting August 2? Jon O or Bill D?

AGplusone: I think I read the first three, said, “That’s nice,” but never read them again.

BPRAL22169: OK — that’s what I was looking for

BPRAL22169: We should have another author chat thereafter.

Gaeltachta: The ending was quite imaginative (I thought)

AGplusone: Jon O

OakMan 7111: David that was my feeling. the first was great but it just kept going and going and…

billdennis2nd: Farmer’s “The Green Odessy” reminds me so much of LL’s background story from “The Tale of the Twins w

billdennis2nd: who weren’t

AGplusone: Sounds like another topic Bill …

billdennis2nd: In that both are tales of an escape from slavery and the protagonist’s relative desire to protect

billdennis2nd: they sired

AGplusone: opportunity to finally appreciate Farmer

BPRAL22169: There’s a lot of material there — might be difficult to manage a chat on that topic.

billdennis2nd: I don’t think Farmer shared Heinlein’s politics or world view.

AGplusone: narrowly defined … we’ve done worse … and might discover something or the other

billdennis2nd: I don’t think Farmer is a good chat topic, cause not all Hainlein fans have read farmer

OakMan 7111: Bill sdidnt you say once that you talked to Farmer?

TAWN3: Read his tarzan book, definitely not Heinlein!

SAcademy: I’m sure of that.

BPRAL22169: Sure.

billdennis2nd: Yes. It was a long time ago. And the interview never saw print.

AGplusone: It’s like any guest author …

OakMan 7111: Do you still have it? Why don’t you post it?

BPRAL22169: Oh, we both have, then. he was living in Scottsdale when I was involved in local SF fandom

BPRAL22169: in Phoenix

billdennis2nd: Ginny, have you met Farmer? I am wondering about the dedication to farmer in Stranger.

AGplusone: like the Zenna Henderson interview?

BPRAL22169: Yup. That actually got published, though.

billdennis2nd: I don’t have a transcript, but I do have the tape sitting around somewhere.

CHASGRAFT has left the room.

SAcademy: Yes, I’ve met him and Bette.

billdennis2nd: Farmer and I both live in Peoria. I was at his home for the interview. I was too young and foolish to

billdennis2nd: appreciate it, though.

SAcademy: What about that dedication?

SAcademy: Robert admired his work

billdennis2nd: Well, although I think there are some interesting simularities, it seems that Mr. Heinlein and Farme

billdennis2nd: Farmer would have too many difficulties to appreciate each other’s work. The dedication

billdennis2nd: was a surprise to me.

AGplusone: The form of Stranger similar to Riverworld … anatomaic? Bill?

BPRAL22169: To your Scattered bodies Go isn’t really an anatomy.

billdennis2nd: I am glad RAH appreciated Famrer. They are No. 1 and 2 on my list.

BPRAL22169: I don’t recall noticing it of the others.

AGplusone: Just wondering … have very little recollection of it.

BPRAL22169: Picaresque

billdennis2nd: The main protagonist of “Bodies” is Sir Richard Burton.

billdennis2nd: Not to be confused with Lix Taylor’s ex-husband.

BPRAL22169: Richard Francis Burton

FraSprea has entered the room.

AGplusone: I thought it was more a Picaresque ‘journey’ novel too

AGplusone: book

DavidWrightSr: Has anyone read ‘Two Hawks from Earth’ by Farmer?

AGplusone: work

BPRAL22169: It could be done — it has been done before — Don Quixote.

billdennis2nd: hmmm…. “The World as Myth” seems to give us the same opportunity as “Riverworld” to print authors

Gaeltachta: The SIASL dedication continues… “Notice: All men, gods and planets in this story are

SAcademy: You mean the original Sir Richard Burton

billdennis2nd: into fiction as real characters.

Gaeltachta: imaginary. Any coincidence of names is regretted.”

BPRAL22169: This is the 19th century one, not the 16th century one.

billdennis2nd: Another similarity!

AGplusone: Hi, Fra

billdennis2nd: Sir Richard Burton is another of the rugged indovidualists Farmer and Heinlein liked to write about.

AGplusone: It must be almost 2 AM in Italy

OakMan 7111: Hi Francesco!

FraSprea: Hello everybody

billdennis2nd: Well, now that I have started an interesting topic, I must leave.

SAcademy: Hello Francesco

Gaeltachta: Hi Francesco.

billdennis2nd: Howdy FRancesco. Bye.

AGplusone: We all have to leave in about 15 minutes

billdennis2nd has left the room.

AGplusone: maybe we could talk some day about the form of Stranger and why it isn’t a novel

AGplusone: one of the more interesting parts of your book, Bill

AGplusone: Find ourselves looking, goodness sakes, at Carlyle and Swift et al.

AGplusone: scary

TAWN3: Have you already gotten a copy of Bil’s book David?

AGplusone: Yes, got here yesterday

TAWN3: Ah!

TAWN3: I saw the publishing date was moved up.

AGplusone: but I saw it in a slightly different form … once before

Gaeltachta: My copy will take awhile to get here :-(

OakMan 7111: If Gulliver’s Travels can become a hit miniseries, and the Oddessy, why not Stranger?

FraSprea: Mine won’t be here till next week (Jim said)

AGplusone: why not. Saw O Brother last night too. Last night was watch rented movies

AGplusone: Oh Brother is a take on Oddessy

Gaeltachta: Any good? I’m watching it tonight.

OakMan 7111: did not know that

AGplusone: believe it or not … I enjoyed it

Gaeltachta: My Dad recommended it.

AGplusone: amusing and kinda fun to watch

Gaeltachta: He mentioned the Oddessy connection.

OakMan 7111: I recently saw the Kirk Douglas movie

OakMan 7111: that was terrible

AGplusone: which one?

OakMan 7111: Ullyses

TAWN3: Why didn’t you like the Kirk Douglas movie Jon?

TAWN3: I loved it.

OakMan 7111: too many dubs

TAWN3: Oh.

AGplusone: It’s fascinating the way authors go back and file serial numbers off …

OakMan 7111: Dougllas was fine, so I shouldn’t say terrible, but the other voices were all false

TAWN3: I vividly remember the scene when he confronts the courtiers. Had a impresion on me as a youth.

AGplusone: Mowgli + the New Testament + Gulliver + what else in Stranger?

OakMan 7111: Shakespeare did that for a living – file the numbers off of Jew Of Malta and come up with

OakMan 7111: Merchant of venice

AGplusone: The bow stringing is the greatest resolution of suspense scene in literature

AGplusone: You say: at last!

SAcademy: Well there just aren’t any new stories!

TAWN3: Yes!

TAWN3: Whips of the rags, and walla (sp)

AGplusone: And then you settle back for the boys to try to get away ….

TAWN3: :-)

AGplusone: and, guess what, they don’t make it.

TAWN3: I remember it vididly to this day. Burned into my memory for some reason. A wrong righted.

AGplusone: Yes.

OakMan 7111: dont get me wrong – I loved it when I first saw it

TAWN3: Arrow through all the ax heads and that’s all she wrote!

AGplusone: You can imagine the bard singing it, suspense, suspense, then finally …. end of the line.

fgherman has entered the room.

TAWN3: One of myall time favorite scenes for some reason.

TAWN3: Lost my bold.

SAcademy: Nice to see you Felicia

OakMan 7111: want some of mine?

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia

OakMan 7111: Hi Felicia

TAWN3: Yes, plase.

fgherman: Hello all

TAWN3: Hi Felicia.

AGplusone: just about over, believe it or not we were just talking about the bow-stringing

OakMan 7111: right click in the input box and you should get a chance to put it back

fgherman: Better late than never

AGplusone: scene in Oddyssey

fgherman: One of my favorites

AGplusone: a word I can never spell

AGplusone: I think everyone who’s actually read through it feels that way …

fgherman: Those suitors got what was coming to them

OakMan 7111: But it’s best in the original Klingon

TAWN3: Well, it is the culmination of the entire book, isn’t it?

TAWN3: LOLOL

AGplusone: sure was …

TAWN3: So is Shakespeare!

BPRAL22169: Certainly a possibility– when enough people have read it. maybe in the fall?

AGplusone: I think we might …

AGplusone: well, ’tis time to say good night. David there’s an illusion to someone named Leeper you should cut,

OakMan 7111: Legend actually has a lot to do with the King Must Die – he who marries the Queen is the King, until

AGplusone: as well as my blind pig comment.

OakMan 7111: there’s a problem or 7 years have passed

AGplusone: Please before we got started.

AGplusone: about AOL powers and stuff

fgherman: Just think… Homer’s Odyssey as directed by Quentin Tarantino

AGplusone: allusion

BPRAL22169: *Sigh*

OakMan 7111: well, it’s time for patches’s shot

OakMan 7111: I must go

DavidWrightSr: Allusion to Leeper and a lot of comments the three of us had at the beginning

AGplusone: Hope she’s better … yep.

fgherman: I feel like Capt. Spaulding

DavidWrightSr: ?

AGplusone: Just got to heaven and found the angels unfriendly

fgherman: Hello, I must be going

OakMan 7111: you dont look like Capt. Spaulding…bye

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

fgherman: “How an elephant got in my pajamas, I’ll never know.”

AGplusone: It may have been the little one in Jerry Was a Man. He might fit.

BPRAL22169: Groucho Marx — Karl Marx. between them, they define the 20th century.

fgherman: I guess I’ll read the transcript to find out what I missed

TAWN3: Lonnon and Lenin?

BPRAL22169: The true Marx brothers…

fgherman: Don’t forget Lennon

BPRAL22169: But would that be the Lennon/Lenin sisters?

TAWN3: I have the Lennon and Marx Radio Theatre album tucked away somewhere. Natuional lampoon.

fgherman: *groan*

fgherman: No, Fireside Theater

TAWN3: Been awhile!

TAWN3: :-)

fgherman: “All Hail Lennon & Marx”

BPRAL22169: “The one with the ever-widening hole in it!”

TAWN3: But Fireside was National Lampoon, wasn’t it?

BPRAL22169: But it’s really true that “Everything you know is wrong.”

fgherman: “He’s no fun, he fell right over.”

BPRAL22169: Firesign Theatre was NOT National Lampoon.

fgherman: I had the terrifying experience of riding an elevator with Phil Proctor & Dave Osman

fgherman: 50% of Fireside theater

BPRAL22169: yes, that would be terrifying.

Gaeltachta: Time for me to go. Hoo roo.

BPRAL22169: You still see Proctor around now and again.

BPRAL22169: on TV, I mean.

Gaeltachta has left the room.

fgherman: I even mad e the mistake of saying, “and here we are”

fgherman: Fortunately, they didn’t hear me

TAWN3: OK, if you all say so, been awhile since I listened to it. Like twenty years!

BPRAL22169: “and here we are.”

fgherman: *whe*

BPRAL22169: It could have been worse: you could have said “Don’t crush that dwarf — hand me the pliers.”

BPRAL22169: Or “We’re ALL bozos on this elevator.”

fgherman: we were all bozos on that elevator

BPRAL22169: honk-honk.

fgherman: Don’t squeze the wheeze”

DavidWrightSr: Folks. I haven’t yet finished Thursday’s log…

BPRAL22169: OK, gentles, time to go.

AGplusone: okay … have to go now … got log, Dave

DavidWrightSr: so I [might] just put it together with this one and publish just the one

fgherman: It’s been lovely while it lasted

BPRAL22169: Bad, David, Bad bad.

AGplusone: ?

AGplusone: or need backup?

SAcademy: Nite, all.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah I know

fgherman: no doughnut

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: night Ginny

fgherman: Good night Ginny

fgherman: bye

BPRAL22169: There wasn’t much material from the Tursday meeting. We all had trouble concentrating.

DavidWrightSr: Faster than a speeding Jane

BPRAL22169: ciao.

fgherman has left the room.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 08:07 P.M. EDT

DavidWrightSr: Night Folks.

FraSprea: I’l say good bye too, then, night!

TAWN3: Good night Ginny.

DavidWrightSr: Everyone stay and chat if you wish. Good Night
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 06-21-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Heinlein’s Aliens

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 06-21-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Heinlein’s Aliens

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group Notice of Next Meeting

Date: Thursday, June 21, 1999, 9 PM to midnight, ET and Saturday,

June 23, 1999, from 8 to 10 PM, ET, in our Internet AIM chatroom.

For instructions on obtaining the freeware and attending, see Dave Wright’s web page at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

Use the AIM link at

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/_site/Links/Links.htm (the one right below Jani’s photo down near the bottom), to get into the room using the link method, rather than the one referred to in Dave’s page.

For those of you receiving a copy of this by e mail, our message board, as always, is in the alt.fan.heinlein newsgroup. If you cannot find it, e mail me: agplusone@aol.com or ag.plusone@verizon.net

Topic: Aliens! (no, not the Sigorny Weaver movies; but aliens in Heinlein’s stories) and Could A Commercially Successful Movie or Television Series be Made of Them Today? How?

Readings: Heinlein’s novels Red Planet (’50, ’90); Starman Jones (’53); The Star Beast (’54); Double Star (’56) and Glory Road (’63).

When I began reading Robert Heinlein in the hot smoggy summer of 1954, I was eleven, going on twelve years of age; and of course I began with the juveniles. It opened my eyes to something new and exciting.

This was really back before everyone had TV. Even if you had one, parents didn’t encourage you to watch it after about 7 PM or so.

We read during evenings at home mostly. Seeing movies was something else–a reward or treat. I’d seen the George Pal movie Destination Moon, which I never then connected with Heinlein–if anything, at my age I connected it with Woody Woodpecker, a couple years earlier with my parents; and I’d seen a few other ‘science-fiction’ movies all the same way, at a drive-in movie. In those days, back before fast food and truly greedy theater owners, admission was usually about $2 per car; and parents would bundle, literally, with blankets and pillows, their kids in the back, pop a big shopping bag of popcorn before leaving the house, fill dad’s thermos with coffee, buy a chilled sixpack or two of bottled sodapop at the local grocery before pulling into the drive-in, pack some fried chicken, potato salad, corn on the cob in season, fruit, and sandwiches mom cooked or made in a big brown bag or basket, arrive at 6:30 or 7 PM, just before dusk, let the kids run off their energy playing on the swings and jungle gyms, until the inevitable spotlights made a sufficient impression on the large white screen–and the equally inevitable horns to remind the management that everyone wanted the movie to start would blow; and signal the kids to get back to the car in time for the first of the three, four, five, or six cartoons; then the newsreels; then the two or three serials, and then came the two full-length feature movies.

A ‘science-fiction’ or adventure movie was usually the first feature–for the kids would be asleep in back in their PJs by 9 PM; and then mom and dad would watch something for grown-ups. If you were ten, eleven or twelve you’d struggle to stay awake yourself and watch from the back seat. Every once in a while dad would turn and ask, “Aren’t you asleep, yet? Don’t forget you’ve got to get up for school tomorrow.”

It would usually be an old favorite, some ugly guy named Humphrey and a pretty woman named Ingrid in black-and-white–those kinds of mushy films where they just stood around talking to each other, mostly. The ‘science-fiction’ films were a lot of fun; but the older I got the more I’d conclude they were also kinda stupid, sometimes. There’d be a spaceshipt or a crazy machine and these people would wind up on the wrong planet or way back in the past somehow; and they’d have to fight to survive with monsters or beings from the other planet. The monsters looked scary when you were little until it dawned on you that all they were magnified horny toads or lizards, or somebody dressed up inside a really dumb-looking costume–that you’d find out later was was a giant, intelligent carrot. Or humans fantastically suited up in what looked like black leather breastplates and helmets, with maybe batwings sprouting from their backs like Lucifer and his cronies escaped from the etched drawings in those old books you’d use for Bible study.

By the time you were eleven you’d concluded science fiction movies were stupid; and by the time you were twelve if you kept your eyes open you’d figured out why there were also always a lot of cars full of teenagers unaccompanied by adults at the drive-in too. They were ‘making out’ while the stupid science fiction movie was on. I concluded Hollywood made science fiction movies so parents could spend a weekday evening watching a decent adult movie back before TV after their kids wore out and so teenagers could make out in the darkness all night long while both sorts of movies ran.

I never believed then it would be possible to make a Heinlein story into a good movie.

Well, coming right up is another summer . . . so let’s look at the aliens, monsters and not-so-maybe, in the five Heinlein novels above, and talk about making them into movies today. Relax, it’s summer, and we needn’t be academic in our discussions always–everyone should be able to enjoy this chat. And attend. Zim says he’ll be counting.

Maybe somebody can educate me about how filmmakers would go about making a decent movie involving aliens–particularly the Heinlein aliens, today; because, as I keep telling everyone, I stopped reading science fiction sometime in the sixties; and I stopped going to science fiction movies or watching them on TV, the occasional “2001–A Space Odyssey” and ST:TOS excepted, maybe ten years before that, so I’ll be the first to admit I can learn a lot about it from you.

As you read these works, please post your thoughts as replies to this lead-off post. Remember, the more pre-meeting message board posts we make the more our chats are lively and worthwhile. See you in about ten days. Jane Davitt will host Thursday, and I’ll host Saturday.

But Zim will be there both days, taking roll. And he sez he hasn’t seen a lot of you in a while. So show up, and get him off my back, please. I’m getting of having to run around that supply shed with Bronski or Malmud at my heels.

David M. Silver

http://www.heinleinsociety.org

“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”

Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29

Lt (jg)., USN R’td (1907-1988)

“David M. Silver” wrote:

>

>Topic: Aliens! (no, not the Sigorny Weaver movies; but aliens in

>Heinlein’s stories) and Could A Commercially Successful Movie or

>Television Series be Made of Them Today? How?

>

>Readings: Heinlein’s novels Red Planet (’50, ’90); Starman Jones

>(’53); The Star Beast (’54); Double Star (’56) and Glory Road (’63).

>

>

David! What about Sir Isaac? You can’t leave him out…. OK, so a summary of the aliens required…

Red Planet; bouncer, water seeker, grown up Martian and an Old One who should be the same as a normal Martian.

Starman Jones; assorted aliens at Earthport, Mr Chips, centaurs, hobgoblins.

Star Beast. Good old Lummox in various sizes, with and without hands, Ftaeml and the rest of the Hroshii.

Double Star Just Martians I think.

Glory Road. Hmm, Igli, Horned Ghosts, Nevian horses, dragons, furry girls….

There are so many possibilities; a cartoon would be simple, a computer generated one like Shrek would be equally easy, a combination of real film and those other two options…

As to whether they would be commercially viable I really don’t see why not. Red Planet perhaps the least, Glory Road the most.

Just a quick post; I’ll be back :-)

Jane

“David M. Silver”wrote in message news:…

> “David M. Silver” wrote:

>[all snipped, arrgh! Don’t you hate it when someone uses a text

>When I began reading Robert Heinlein in the hot smoggy summer of

>1954, I was eleven, going on twelve years of age; and of course I

>began with the juveniles. It opened my eyes to something new and

>exciting.

>

I am younger than David, I am younger than David.

Will in New Haven

http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

ddavitt has entered the room.

SAcademy has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

DavidWrightSr: Hi Folks.

SAcademy: Good evening David. Sorry Jane, I missed you.

ddavitt: Just got here this second

ddavitt: Ben volunteering at the library

ddavitt: Been..typos already!

SAcademy: Denis Paradis is coming, and I have to invite him.

ddavitt: I haven’t had any new messages on afh or rasfw all day; something wrong there

ddavitt: OK

SAcademy: He’s a blood banker and I was having some chat with him before we decided it was time.

DavidWrightSr: What’s his buddy name?

SAcademy: DJedPar

ddavitt: Oh, just got a few for rasfw; usually that group has a hundred an hour.

ddavitt: He came to the last chat didn’t he?

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got that name, but I don’t see in the active list

ddavitt: Nor I

SAcademy: Yes, he’s been here before.

SAcademy: Maybe he took a break, I came right here.

ddavitt: I have 49 names on my friends list now…

ddavitt: don’t know who some of them are; I add them if they show up here

SAcademy: For what purpose?

ddavitt: In case they need mailings or something

SAcademy: I don’t see that list. Where do find it?

ddavitt: Go to your buddy list; that’s the one I mean

ddavitt: Two options; online which shows you who is around

DavidWrightSr: So do I Jane

ddavitt: And list setup shows you everyone you’ve ever added

ddavitt: If they are stuck trying to get into the room it’s faster if you have their name

DavidWrightSr: I’ve even got a couple of people who I hope never show up!

SAcademy: I did but while he’s online he isn’t answering invites.

ddavitt: Also means you can see if they’re online if you want to chat

ddavitt: Some I should delete; they were one time attendees and haven’t been back

SAcademy: I will stay there on Aol and meet him when he’s back.

DavidWrightSr: My philosophy is that you never can tell when they might be back

ddavitt: True.

ddavitt: OK Ginny, let us know if you need help inviting him in

DavidWrightSr: In fact, one of them is on-line now. I am NOT going to invite him.

ddavitt: Does it begin with R?

DavidWrightSr: Yeah verily

ddavitt: I get it!:-)

ddavitt: I see Bill P; wonder if he is coming in

ddavitt: AG is also on a chat about the convention tonight

ddavitt: Do you see any posts in afh Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Bill is still only on AOL at the moment

ddavitt: That always confuses me..

DavidWrightSr: Nothing on this topic. There were the endless ‘Green’ and ‘hint’ topics

ddavitt: I see the BPRAL one

ddavitt: I haven’t seen any since early this morning.

ddavitt: My server must be down

ddavitt: Can’t belive a whole day has gone by and noone has posted

DavidWrightSr: If you click once on the name, it will tell you whether or not they are on AOL or AIM(internet)

DavidWrightSr: Sometime, it does it :-)

SAcademy: It says he’s not available, but he’s there.

ddavitt: Oh well.

SAcademy: Can someone else help him?

ddavitt: Not many pre meeting post; summer doldrums maybe

ddavitt: He isn’t online for me Ginny

ddavitt: I can email him but not IM him

SAcademy: He’s online on AOL. Having trouble I guess.

ddavitt: It’s because I’m not AOL that I can’t see him I suppose

SAcademy: Is David Wright here? Can he help?

ddavitt: Yes Dave is here

ddavitt: Do you see Dennis Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Nope.

ddavitt: Maybe he needs to reboot?

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got a problem. I have an emergency call that I have to attend to.

ddavitt: OK Dave

DavidWrightSr: I’m going to leave this running. but if you see me drop, please save the log

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Will do. hi Bill

BPRAL22169: Howdy.

ddavitt: Ginny is having trouble trying to get DJedPar in

ddavitt: I don’t ‘see’ him as online

ddavitt: He is just on AOL

BPRAL22169: Is Denis’ system not recognizing invitations?

ddavitt: Yes

ddavitt: Should he reboot

maikoshT has entered the room.

maikoshT: I’ve got an additional one going just as backup. See y’all later, I hope.

ddavitt: OK Dave, thanks

SAcademy: I still get not avaiable

BPRAL22169: I’m not even showing him signed on aol

SAcademy: No., he went back somewhere. Maybe a reboot.

ddavitt: We will wait for him to show up and try grabbing him then

BPRAL22169: I do show Phil Owenby there, though. And Ron.

ddavitt: I don’t see them..must not be on AIM

ddavitt: What is Phil’s name?

BPRAL22169: Phillipowe

ddavitt: Ah..don’t have him for some reason

SAcademy: Denis is rebooting.

ddavitt: I’ll add him.Nice round 50 people

SAcademy: Do you have that much room? I do’t

ddavitt: I didn’t know there was a limit

ddavitt: i have more in my family section.

ddavitt: maybe it’s because I’m not AOL?

BPRAL22169: That’s strange — I minimized my AIM buddy list, and now I can’t find it on the taskbar.

ddavitt: It used to do that to me

ddavitt: Doesn’t since I upgraded

ddavitt: Have to go to the menu at the top of the screen

ddavitt: to get it back

ddavitt: Might be different for you

BPRAL22169: I’m using the old version — 2.0 I think. I got it back by clicking on the startup AIM icon.

ddavitt: I wonder if in 50 years all computers will be the same or if there will be greater diversity?

ddavitt: VHS v Betamax

Dehede011 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Amiga/Atari

ddavitt: Hi Ron

Dehede011: Hi Y’all

BPRAL22169: Did you get to watch any of the eclipse today?

Dehede011: Hi y’all

ddavitt: Heard about it

ddavitt: Heard about it

Dehede011: Yes, I caught about 15 minutes in the middle

ddavitt: Sorry; it’s sticking

ddavitt: Did we see it here?

BPRAL22169: Africa, mostly

Dehede011: Black circles on white circles.

ddavitt: Thought it was in Africa

Dehede011: Nope not in NA

BPRAL22169: I thought I might drop down to the Exploratorium but didn’t. Too much to do here.

ddavitt: Have you got those photocopies from Jim yet?

Dehede011: I went nuts getting hooked up my virus detector wouldn’t let me

ddavitt: He said he would post them to me two weeks ago…

ddavitt: maybe he is putting them in with martina

ddavitt: Martian

BPRAL22169: Which photocopies and to whom was that directed, Jane?

ddavitt: You Bill, the ones from francesco

BPRAL22169: And for that matter, which Jim?

ddavitt: Gifford

ddavitt: Weren’t you one of the people who were getting a copy?

BPRAL22169: Oh, yes, he delivered them yesterday.

ddavitt: So long ago now…

BPRAL22169: He dropped off a box of Martians — I have a book! A real book!

ddavitt: Poor Francesco sent them to Jim G so we would get them faster :-)

BPRAL22169: And lots of ’em.

ddavitt: Kewl:-):-):-)

BPRAL22169: Jim has many virtues, but promptness about forwarding stuff is not among them.

ddavitt: Congratulations!

ddavitt: Congratulations!

ddavitt: Darn!

ddavitt: I press enter, nothing happens, I press again and get 2 messages. Sorry

BPRAL22169: AIM BITES!

Dehede011: KInda like hiccups, Jane??

ddavitt: Till it draws blood…

BPRAL22169: Stuttering.

ddavitt: Just like!

ddavitt: Well, do we want to start?

BPRAL22169: No, the Heinlein Society bites until it draws blood…

ddavitt: Nice one..

ddavitt: Been a nasty sort of week for the HS tho..many hassles

BPRAL22169: I understand Jon is working on a chat software that doesn’t have this limitation.

ddavitt: I feel battered and bruised

ddavitt: Yes but he said it may be a while

BPRAL22169: … and bewildered? Why is that?

ddavitt: All the spam problems, criticisms on rasfw…

BPRAL22169: What’s rasfw?

SAcademy: I just can’t get him here. We’ve tried everything.

ddavitt: part and parcel of everyday life I suppose; I’ve been in a backwater at home too long

BPRAL22169: I don’t show him as logged onto AIM at all.

ddavitt: Bill! Rec arts sf written

BPRAL22169: Oh, them. The morons.

ddavitt: aka masters of the Universe

ddavitt: I darn nearly got booted off the sff groups. Scary!

Dehede011: I haven’t been reading rasfw, have I missed something

SAcademy: He went to MSN

ddavitt: Live and learn

SAcademy: To try to get here. I don’t understand it.

BPRAL22169: I saw that. Obviously they don’t think you’re a positive experience for sff.

ddavitt: No, just a few teething problems Ron.

BPRAL22169: Bite ’em till they bleed.

ddavitt: No, they were right, I hadn’t realsied the smallness of the community

ddavitt: I posted to 30 groups, no x posts…some people had to read david’s message 30 times

ddavitt: Eek…

ddavitt: Not happy campers

ddavitt: Thankfully I cottoned on that I was being cancelled and stopped posting

BPRAL22169: I wonder if that’s why afh has been so unwontedly well behaved the last few days.

BPRAL22169: You have a good influence on afh, Jane

ddavitt: Has it? i haven’t seen any messages since early AM; server must be down

BPRAL22169: Perish, forbid.

ddavitt: Good influence? hah! I need lessons from Uncle Bodie then :-)

ddavitt: Afh I am marking as read these days…too much junk

ddavitt: Hardly any pre meeting posts for this chat at all\

BPRAL22169: There is a lot of fizzy nattering with no meat.

ddavitt: We need some good juicy on topic threads

Dehede011: BRB

ddavitt: I will think up something..still working on the dedications ith Tim

BPRAL22169: That will be fun to see.

ddavitt: Just not guns, politics or Vietnam :-)

Dehede011: Back

ddavitt: Do we want to start she says again?

ddavitt: I think the topic is movies of some of the books

ddavitt: Double Star, Star Beast

SAcademy: I think he gave up.

ddavitt: Starman Jones

ddavitt: Glory Road, with emphasis on the aliens

ddavitt: Who Ginny?

Dehede011: Double Star would be my pick if we could find the actor with the range to play it

ddavitt: Someone with an option?

SAcademy: Denis.

ddavitt: But isn’t the plot too familiar with its echoes of prince &pauper?

ddavitt: Oh, I’m sorry. maybe he will drop in later

ddavitt: Not to mention that recent film, ‘Dave”

Dehede011: Perhaps, but the main thing is the job of characterization and growth

ddavitt: Which was a real similarity to the Heinlein book

ddavitt: Reading the book you get those nuances…not sure the film could show them

ddavitt: But it would be good to see him do Bennie, the grey murderer

Dehede011: To find an actor that portray the actor in the beginning and gradually

Dehede011: transition into that statesman at the end

ddavitt: It’s a challenging role

Dehede011: Would you accept daunting??

ddavitt: Yep!

ddavitt: I think the aliens are no problem nowadays..not sure what AG had in mind with that bit of the topic

Dehede011: DS is one of the best jobs of characterization I have ever seen

Dehede011: in print

ddavitt: Not sure the public would accept not going into the Nest tho; they like to have all the dots connected

ddavitt: I always say that it’s a tragedy that both Bonforte and larry die

ddavitt: What remains is a synthesis…

ddavitt: Both die to create a new person in a way

Dehede011: Why do I get the idea that Larry ends up better than Bonaforte

BPRAL22169: I think RAH might have had Laurence Olivier in mind originally.

ddavitt: At the end he thinks of himself as Bonforte; that’s really getting into the role

ddavitt: How do you mean Ron?

ddavitt: LO would have been good but needs to be youngish.

Dehede011: I walk away seeing Bonforte as having grown to exceed the original

BPRAL22169: (in 1956 he was youngish)

Dehede011: but don’t know why I think that

ddavitt: Maybe he was at the time it was written

ddavitt: GMTA

Dehede011: Sorry I meant Larry.

ddavitt: Lorenzo loses himself and grows to the point where he looks down on his old self

ddavitt: But it’s not a natural result of maturation

Dehede011: yes, but why do I think he exceeded the original Bonforte

ddavitt: The way i look back at me as a teenager and cringe!

ddavitt: He was forced into a different path

BPRAL22169: Who’s that actor that just got canned from Ally McBeal?

ddavitt: Ah, i get you now

Dehede011: Is it Penny (?) coming to love him?

ddavitt: Downey?

BPRAL22169: No — I agree: Bonforte-Smith has to be more than just Bonforte.

ddavitt: You mean, he does better than B would’ve if he’d lived?

BPRAL22169: And he’s been in the role for decades by the end.

BPRAL22169: Yes — Robert Downey. he could do it.

Dehede011: Yes, Jane

ddavitt: He brings something new to the mix.

ddavitt: Interesting choice Bill

ddavitt: So..can we separate it out?

BPRAL22169: There aren’t that many actors with strong training

ddavitt: What does he have?

ddavitt: The actor’s ability to know his audience maybe?

ddavitt: brb; baby crying, dad in bath

BPRAL22169: Downey also can project “putting on a good face when you know you’re going down the drain.”

Dehede011: Actually I think Enneagram theoretically explains how that character

BPRAL22169: Very difficult.

Dehede011: could have grown that way

BPRAL22169: Please elaborate, Ron.

ddavitt: back

Dehede011: There are nine basic types, okay?

BPRAL22169: Ron is relating to the Enneagram, Jane.

ddavitt: of character?

Dehede011: The Reagan/Clinton type can almost totally change

ddavitt: Not heard of it before

ddavitt: Oh, is it that passive/aggressive, type A thingie?

Dehede011: Look it up on line and pay particular attention to type nine

Dehede011: That is the Reagan/Clinton type

ddavitt: brb

Dehede011: No Jane, the theory is there are only nine basic kinds of personalities

SAcademy: What is the Reagan/Clinton type? They’re very different.

Dehede011: Not really

Dehede011: Both look to occupy the middle ground and be the decision maker

Dehede011: after everyone else does the arguing

Dehede011: also both tend to get people to do the job instead of their doing

Dehede011: close supervision

Dehede011: Both also tend to have a little secret life

SAcademy: Anyone notice that all the names are in red tonight?

Dehede011: Except here Ginny, they are all blue

Dehede011: LOL

BPRAL22169: Mine are all blue, too.

SAcademy: Two weeks ago each person had a different color.

SAcademy: Someone is playing games?

BPRAL22169: No, I think it’s a local thing with your machine.

SAcademy: Someone must have told them that I don’t especially like red.

SAcademy: Did anyone else hear a door slam?

Dehede011: No, but I heard a noise in my machine

ddavitt: Sorry, back

ddavitt: Just had IM from Dave Silver while I was away; he is still on Philcon chat, will try and join us later

SAcademy: He is really taking that conseriosly.

ddavitt: Yes, i have lost all the pretty colours too

Dehede011: I take it Dave wants to run a blood drive at Philcon.

ddavitt: It’s the Developing Young Readers group

ddavitt: They are discussing Farmer I think and dave is helping

ddavitt: Wish i could go and meet you all:-(

ddavitt: It’s in Toronto in a few years I think

SAcademy: I’m not going either.

BPRAL22169: You should! The afh dinner is turning into a THS function.

Dehede011: Ooh, I would like to go to Toronto

ddavitt: Bet you’ve been to lots in the past though!

ddavitt: I’ve never been to one; not many in the UK

ddavitt: Well, everyone’s welcome to come vist;I’m about an hour away

Dehede011: I used to go to WindyCon for a few years.

SAcademy: I’ve been to a con.

ddavitt: I’ve read a spoof book about one; Sharyn McCrumb’s one. People either love it or hate it, depending

SAcademy: Every time I think about them I think of Karen Anderson saying” Are you going to the Con?”

BPRAL22169: For her it was always “yes.”

ddavitt: Any one in particular?

Dehede011: I was drinking in those days and seem to remember spending time with Gordon D.

ddavitt: I don’t get how it works..is there just one world one?

ddavitt: Like the Olympics, it moves around?

ddavitt: And lots of little ones in variuos places?

BPRAL22169: Yes.

SAcademy: Yes. Different place each year.

ddavitt: So is Philcon the biggie this year? that’s the world con?

BPRAL22169: Right. In Philadelphia – but they’re calling it “Millennium Philcon” or MilPhil

ddavitt: Is it generally the US?

BPRAL22169: We’re calling them “idiots.”

ddavitt: I don’t ever recall one in UK

ddavitt: That’s funny; we have Star Wars in french on as I speak

Dehede011: Jane, I am almost sure I have read of a worldcon in the UK

ddavitt: maybe I was just not in the loop for it

Dehede011: But maybe only one

ddavitt: I read SF; was never into the fan scene

BPRAL22169: They’ve been in London 2 or 3 times, I think.

ddavitt: Didn’t know anyone else who like dit

ddavitt: Never read any magazines either so i never knew when there was a new Heinlein out; they just appeared

Dehede011: I had the same experience til I got to Navy Flight School

ddavitt: in the library.

Dehede011: They were a bunch of space cadets

ddavitt: When I got older and had more pocket money, I bought them.

ddavitt: Amongst others…got over 3000 now…,brag>

ddavitt: It is a funny pun tho Bill; almost irresistable

ddavitt: can’t really blame them for it

SAcademy: I saw those bookshelves back of the pictures of your children.

ddavitt: That’s some of them!

ddavitt: That whole room has six shelves on three walls, more in the basement

SAcademy: I know I have a book wall in my bedroom.

ddavitt: Finally I have a library with nothing in it but books, a chair and a light

BPRAL22169: John Lee Hooker and Carroll O’Connor passed away today.

ddavitt: I’m sorry, i don’t know who they are.

SAcademy: We had them all over te place when we lived in Bonny doon.

ddavitt: You had over 10,000 I read; that is a lot of boxes when you move

SAcademy: Who are they Bill?

BPRAL22169: John lee Hooker was a famous bluesman in SF — The boom Boom Room.

BPRAL22169: Carroll O’Connor was an actor — Archie Bunker

ddavitt: Oh, played a bigot in a comedy series?

SAcademy: Lack of air condtioning, I suppose?

BPRAL22169: Yes

ddavitt: Ginny!!

BPRAL22169: You’re in fine form today!

ddavitt: Shame on you!:-)

SAcademy: Shame on me with a big grtin?

ddavitt: It was funny so you get a smile.

ddavitt: So hard to convet voice tones…

ddavitt: convey

ddavitt: Lose a lot when it’s just words and limited to a sentence or two

ddavitt: We are not talking about the topic. Are you all done?

ddavitt: I still vote for glory Road to be the most filmable

ddavitt: If they remember to do the beginning and end right and not just film the middle that is

SAcademy: Someone had an option on it for a while, but coldn’t get backing.

ddavitt: It’s way more than a quest

ddavitt: Or rather, the Egg isn’t the quest

ddavitt: Shame

ddavitt: So much rubbish out there…

SAcademy: Yes, well,. no one wants to put a lot of money into somehting that is good.

ddavitt: Be nice to have a film with a solid story behind it

SAcademy: Look at Titanic and the latest thing out there.

ddavitt: Pearl harbor?

SAcademy: Yes, Jane.

ddavitt: Not my cup of tea, doubt I’ll ever se it

SAcademy: A flop and heads are rolling now.

Dehede011: I would rather not look at PH

ddavitt: I saw Titanic when my friend lent me the video or I would have missed that too.

SAcademy: No one of my generatio wants to see PH

ddavitt: It had it’s moments…but I knew the ending.

Dehede011: My son got me a copy of Smoke Signals

SAcademy: They more or less made a joke of it.

ddavitt: The captain came from hanley…a few miles from my home town

ddavitt: It makes a difference when you lived through it Ginny

SAcademy: Where they hold the boat races?

ddavitt: No, that’s Henley

ddavitt: I come from the Potteries, the Five Towns that Arnold Bennet wrote about

SAcademy: Sorry. I didn’t know the difference.

ddavitt: Hanley is tiny Ginny; I doubt anyone knows it

ddavitt: I’m impressed you know Henley even

SAcademy: Well a nephew rowed there.

ddavitt: Wedgewood, royal Doulton, all get made where i come from

ddavitt: Americans come and spend a fortune in the factory shops; you must like our china. It is good quality

Dehede011: Send all that china to my home — we had the world’s biggest earthquake

SAcademy: Yes, I know about those. I was impressed when I saw Royal Doulton on a toilet somewhere.

ddavitt: Heh, yes but we do figurines, tea services and such too.

SAcademy: Not to mention table dishes etc.

ddavitt: I have a ‘Top of the Hill” Doulton figurine that belonged to my great grandmother who worked there

Dehede011: What is that Jane?

SAcademy: My sisterinlaw Caryl was going to write a book on the water closets of Europe, but she refrained.

ddavitt: Sorry, Ron, just saw your comment

ddavitt: A real earthquake?

Dehede011: Yes,

Dehede011: The biggest in recorded history

ddavitt: It’s a range of very collectible statues, small ones. The baloon lady is most famous I think

SAcademy: New Madrid fault?

ddavitt: And you lost a lot of your stuff?

Dehede011: That you. Yes, Ginny — it happened about two miles from where I was born

Dehede011: No, 1912

SAcademy: It took place in 18 something.

ddavitt: That would have been an interesting book Ginny

Dehede011: sorry 1812

SAcademy: Rang church bells in Boston

BPRAL22169: That’s on the USGS’s top 10 list.

Dehede011: Yes, and I just found out what caused that fault and eventually the quake

BPRAL22169: What’s that?

ddavitt: We had one here in Toronto a few years ago; made the computer wobble.

Dehede011: It was the last glaciers

BPRAL22169: That’s the fault that runs through Missouri, isn’t it/

Dehede011: Yes,

ddavitt: In the uk we get them but it’s man made; too much mining under the town

Dehede011: The glacier field was so heavy it actually cracked the plate causing the fault

ddavitt: Scary!

SAcademy: Where were you Bill during the Loma Prieta quake?

Dehede011: and a depression which relieves itself from time to time

BPRAL22169: That’s the 1989 one? I had just moved down to Los Angeles and was in a job interview

Dehede011: like popping a bucket lid

BPRAL22169: They guy was on the phone with a lawyer in SF when it hit.

ddavitt: No where to run to; must be a very frightening experience

BPRAL22169: usally it’s over before you realize what’s going on.

Dehede011: I’m still alive you say to yourself

ddavitt has left the room.

Dehede011: I’m thinking — let there be light should make a good movie that Hollywood could understand

BPRAL22169: I think Tunnel in the Sky would be good.

Dehede011: Yes, Hollywood could do a good job with that one also

Dehede011: how about “If this goes on?”

SAcademy: I was sitting with a cat in my lap, when it went. Cat was ot the door so fast he almos tturned into

SAcademy: ghee

BPRAL22169: That was Pixel, wasn’t it?

SAcademy: Yes.

BPRAL22169: Tiger butter.

Dehede011: Ginny, I always knew Ghee as something strictly in books.

SAcademy: Right. Yoou knew that?

BPRAL22169: I guess I did.

Dehede011: the little Pakistani grocer down on the corner carries it.

BPRAL22169: I just didn’t know I did until it came out.

SAcademy: Unconscious.

BPRAL22169: Ghee is just clarified butter.

Dehede011: Right

Dehede011: comes in a clear jar

maikoshT has left the room.

SAcademy: Who he?

BPRAL22169: David Wrights’ alter ego.

Dehede011: ??

SAcademy: Thank you.

Dehede011: What happened to Jane

BPRAL22169: She just disappeared without warning a few minutes ago.

Dehede011: Right and I have kept expecting her back

SAcademy: One of the kids cried, maybe.

SAcademy: Or AOL is having some fun

Dehede011: Wow she gets a double whammy doesn’t she?

BPRAL22169: maybe a little of both.

BPRAL22169: We don’t seem to be concentrating on our groove today. Maybe we should pack it in.

SAcademy: It’s past my bedtime.

Dehede011: I will be leaving in 30 minutes

BPRAL22169: I believe you would be forgiven if you went now.

SAcademy: Nite, all.

BPRAL22169: Shall we pack it in, filk?

Dehede011: nite

Dehede011: up to the gang.

BPRAL22169: We can tell Jane we left because there just wasn’t any point without her.

SAcademy has left the room.

Dehede011: That will make her day

BPRAL22169: ciao, all.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Dehede011: chow to you too

Dehede011 has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 06-09-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT The Future World of 2001

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 06-09-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

The Future World of 2001

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi Guys.

SAcademy: Is DSL telephone company or cable?

AGplusone: Hi, Dave … we’re testing an url … phone company

SAcademy: company

AGplusone: verizon.net in my case

geeairmoe2: My brothers have cable modems. They gush with enthusiasm about them.

billdennis2nd: DSL is phone company and many phone companies have decided to back away from installing and offering

SAcademy: Is it really $50 a month?

AGplusone: Yes

SAcademy: Too much

AGplusone: true

billdennis2nd: The URL didn’t work for me

AGplusone: but … the convenience is better

billdennis2nd: Does it have an unnecessary underscore?

AGplusone: what browser are you using

geeairmoe2: Our local version of Time/Warner offers it at $39.95.

ddavitt has entered the room.

billdennis2nd: I am using IExplorer

ddavitt: Hi everyone

AGplusone: that’s nice … we had a promo … at that price. Hi, Jane

billdennis2nd: Hello

geeairmoe2: Hello.

billdennis2nd: I got free installation, two months service at 19.99 a month.

billdennis2nd: Then it goes to $39.99 a month

AGplusone: very nice deal

AGplusone: They had 40 monthly for about a six month period, but recently dropped that

AGplusone: we’re talking about DSL connections, Jane

SAcademy: What does it do specifically?

billdennis2nd: Actually, cable modem is faster

SAcademy: You get online faster. How much faster?

ddavitt: Yes, I don’t know what they are.

AGplusone: Very much greater speed and allows you to use your phone at the same time

billdennis2nd: Provided everyone on your block isn’t already using a cable modem.

ddavitt: Oh, I know now.

AGplusone: I’m getting about seven times the speed of a 56 k modem right now Ginny

maikoshT has entered the room.

ddavitt: It would be handy to unblock the phone but it costs more

AGplusone: which isn’t all that great

AGplusone: but is better

SAcademy: Using this is the only reason I have a telephone!

ddavitt: Can’t afford it; people will have to wait till I’m done and ring me then

SAcademy: I’d throw the phone out otherwise.

billdennis2nd: Lets just say I can bring up the Illustrated Catalog in about five seconds.

AGplusone: I kept telling my wife that was a fringe benefit of being on line … no phone interruptions

ddavitt: Really? I have started to use this to talk to my mum in the UK but I like hearing voices too

billdennis2nd: You know, the one with RAH’s cadet photo at the top

AGplusone: but she wanted to be able to call me while I was on line

AGplusone: I’m finding I cannot send urls in this space we have now with the AIM chat rooms

AGplusone: That is a pain in the butt

billdennis2nd: I can’t see ANYONE using dial up modems in five years. THis is just sooo much better

SAcademy: Where did you get that picture, please?

AGplusone: The cadet photo?

billdennis2nd: I didn’t get it. I saw it on this web page.

SAcademy: Yes.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

ddavitt: David’s company is doing something called M Ergy

OakMan 7111: Hello all

ddavitt: Or something; wireless internet in remote areas

ddavitt: Hi Jon

SAcademy: Good afternoon.

AGplusone: Hi, Jon …

ddavitt: Can log on at 70 mph …on a train. I’m probably getting this all wrong

AGplusone: Okay, it’s the hour. Do we have a start time, anyone?

billdennis2nd: I would send the link, but I can’t paste it in this chat room

AGplusone: Yes … a real pain in the butt.

ddavitt: You go David :-)

AGplusone: http://www.heinleinsociety.org/_Site/Society/BldDrive/SignUp.asp

billdennis2nd: Gee, what is the topic today.

ddavitt: 2001

OakMan 7111: Why we fell behind RAH’s predictions so badly

AGplusone: we’re testing the page, Jon …

ddavitt: Why aren’t we in flying cars

ddavitt: That sort of thing

billdennis2nd: I’m gonna sign up later on david. I can’t believe I never did before.

billdennis2nd: Oh, I don’t think we fell behind all that much.

AGplusone: The part of the novel I found interesting was something I’d seen before

AGplusone: the predictions of which way my own town would develop

billdennis2nd: Didn’t RAh predict that traffic on the highways would be regulated by computer?

OakMan 7111: me, too. I thgink it’s the pic that’s messing up Netscape

ddavitt: LA you mean?

ddavitt: The smog goes doesn’t it?

AGplusone: I enjoyed the descriptions made 30 years ago

ddavitt: Is that still a problem now?

AGplusone: Not too serious, certainly not as serious as they were around 1955

AGplusone: we rarely have alerts that amount to much

AGplusone: and he was correct about the town developing westward toward the beach towns

billdennis2nd: There are several predictions of his that I believe (just off the top of my head) that WOULD have

ddavitt: Less coal fires? Or didn’t you have them in sunny LA?

billdennis2nd: come true had there been political will to implement

ddavitt: That’s what made our peasoupers in London

AGplusone: they cut out trash incinerators and almost all coal burning

billdennis2nd: I remember within the past couple of years a report on TV ….

AGplusone: actually all of it, plus oil … and went to natural gas

billdennis2nd: About a system that allowed cars to drive at top speed down the highway

AGplusone: saying what, Bill …

billdennis2nd: within a few feet of each other

billdennis2nd: It was supposed to prevent congestion and accidents

billdennis2nd: They showed five cars whipping down the row in perfect formation

OakMan 7111: IIRC, it required sensors in the pavement as well as in the car

AGplusone: They keep edging that way … but getting folk to surrender control would be a big step

billdennis2nd: I don’t think so, OakMan

billdennis2nd: Yes! It is all psychological

AGplusone: Remember in Methuselah’s Children, how they have an option for local control?

OakMan 7111: Bill, I’m Jon Ogden

billdennis2nd: People wouldn’t FEEL safe

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron

billdennis2nd: hello

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody!

billdennis2nd: I recognize almost everybody ….

OakMan 7111: Hello Ron

AGplusone: When Mary is driving with Laz she goes back to local control, which means her own control?

DenvToday: Hello!

ddavitt: Hi Ron afj

ddavitt: afk

AGplusone: We all, sometimes, use a form of what may be coming, “cruise control” for highway driving …

AGplusone: how do we feel when we do that?

OakMan 7111: I wouldn’t feel safe if someone else had a local control option…

billdennis2nd: I am going to have to leave soon. This program is almost done downloading.

Dehede03 has entered the room.

billdennis2nd: bye

DenvToday: Hello Dehede

OakMan 7111: bye

billdennis2nd has left the room.

Dehede03: Howdy folks.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron (dehehe) meet Ron (DenvToday) … :-)

AGplusone: “de”

DenvToday: Nice to meet you!

Dehede03: Ms Academic how are you today. Howdy Ron and Dave

DavidWrightSr: Everyone, Please check Bold button.

SAcademy: Just fine, thanks.

AGplusone: Jane, btw, what did you all decide about next chat subject.

AGplusone: on, okay?

billdennis2nd has entered the room.

billdennis2nd has left the room.

ddavitt: dunno

Dehede03: On

ddavitt: baby on knee alert

ddavitt: hang on

ddavitt: Any luck with Robert Crais Dave?

Dehede03: A thought has been running through my mind; but I don’t know how we could ever make it a topic

DavidWrightSr: Sorry. I’ve not had a chance to check with him yet. Promise to do so today or tomorrow

AGplusone: What’s that, Ron?

ddavitt: Ohterwise we can move up the racism chat; who proposed that one?

ddavitt: ga Ron

AGplusone: time for suggestions is now …

DenvToday: I had a thought once. I think it was 1994. I lied down and it passed.

ddavitt: What about the one that came up in the Thursday chat; overlaps with other things.

ddavitt: IE; lots of us like cats, Buffy, detective novels….

ddavitt: what’s the common factor

Dehede03: I was noticing the auto biographical comments

ddavitt:

Dehede03: On page 13 of TEFL he has his favorite drink

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Sean!

AGplusone: Manhattans?

Gaeltachta: G’Day Everyone….. Hi Jane

AGplusone: Hi, Sean

Dehede03: Brandy Manhatten.

Dehede03: But how do you turn those scattered comments into a subject

DenvToday: Hello!

AGplusone: It would be hard to draw conclusions as to what were autobiographical, what weren’t

SAcademy: Ron, that was Robert’s favorite!

ddavitt: What do you want to do with them exactly?

ddavitt: Build up a picture of favourites?

Dehede03: They would make a darn fine treasure hunt though

Dehede03: I don’t know Jane

ddavitt: certainly would.

Dehede03: Interesting as all get out

Dehede03: But what do you do with them

OakMan 7111: I’d love to do a collection page for ’em at THS.org…

Dehede03: Well I thought of that Oakman but they turn into a project to give to someone else

AGplusone: We might try tieing them into the biographical sketch, assuming everyone can find it on line.

SAcademy: collection of what? Drinks? I’ve been trying to get Denis in

AGplusone: The little glimpses of what may have been photos from his life …

Dehede03: I commemorated his death by donating blood this year

ddavitt: I don’t see him SA

AGplusone: like the little boy out in back yard who looks at Haley’s comet

Dehede03: Right

Dehede03: So I was thinking of doing one of his favorite feasts for his birthday.

geeairmoe2: news://news.sff.net/sff.people.gwilliam

ddavitt: Well, Tim Morgan and I are tracking down all the dedication people so expect cries for help soon.

geeairmoe2: I posted the link David wants us to check out on my newsgroup.

ddavitt: That should be fun; looking at why those particular people got that particular book

Dehede03: Oh yes,

Dehede03: good idea

SAcademy: Believe it or not, I just got “The group is invalid” from AOL

ddavitt: Ginny is our secret weapon if we get totally stuck.

AGplusone: Who, btw, are the folk to whom the dedications in Door Into Summer refers, Ginny?

Dehede03: Yes, but we don’t want to come up with a project for Ginny to do.

SAcademy: What names?

ddavitt: No; we are determined to do as much of it ourselves as possible

SAcademy: I can’t remember.

Gaeltachta: A.P. and Phyllis Mick and Annette Aelurophiles All

AGplusone: “A.P. and Phyllis, Mick and Annette, Aelurophiles all.”

ddavitt: A.P and Phyllis, Mick and Annete

ddavitt: Beat me

AGplusone: And

DJedPar has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

Dehede03: Yes, I have wondered about them in many books

AGplusone: Sean got the capital “A” in All correct.

OakMan 7111: hello DJ

AGplusone: Hi, DJedPar

SAcademy: AP is William A. P. White, sometimes Anthony Boucher. Phyllis is his wife writes mysteries.

Dehede03: Hello, DJ

Gaeltachta: Ha!

DJedPar: Hi, finally made it.

ddavitt: She is P D james isn’t she?

[Editors Note: This is false. Boucher was married to Phyllis Price; P(hyllis).D. James was married to Dr. Connor Bantry White]

AGplusone: And an aelurophile is?

SAcademy: Good for you Denis.

DavidWrightSr: Djepar is Denis.

ddavitt: Cat lover!

AGplusone: Hi, Denis, welcome

DJedPar: Among other things

SAcademy: Maybe P. D. James. I’m not sure abaout that.

ddavitt: I think she is..but I will check. Thanks! That’s great. Another one down

AGplusone: What did A.P.White do in real life, when he wasn’t writing?

ddavitt: Rephrase that!

ddavitt: It sounds insulting :-)

AGplusone: 😛

ddavitt: As if writing isn’t a real job

AGplusone: note the little tongue sticking out

SAcademy: Rocket to the Morgue, and other mysteries. He edited F&SF magazine.

ddavitt: He’s the one who did Rocket To The Morgue

ddavitt: GMTA

SAcademy: Along with Mick MacComas.

ddavitt: The Mick from the dedication?

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

Dehede03: Believe it or not I bought Rocket….. a few years back off the shelf.

DavidWrightSr: Wasn’t he the one that told Robert early on that you never stopped being a writer?

ddavitt: Yes.

SAcademy: Yes, that would be he.

ddavitt: I got Rocket a few months back; fun!

Gaeltachta: Same here……

AGplusone: What I’m wondering about is the role models for the personalities of

Dehede03: Still in print.

AGplusone: John and Jenny Sutton

SAcademy: It’s where Gifford’s press name comes from.

ddavitt: is it? mine was used

ddavitt: that’s right

Gaeltachta: I bought a *new* copy…….

Dehede03: Wasn’t one book dedicated to “Sarge?”

AGplusone: were the Bouchers at all like the “Suttons” in personality — not asking about nudism

ddavitt: Yes; Starship

SAcademy: Starshhip Troopers I think was dedicated to Sarge.

Dehede03: Thanks Jane

ddavitt: I have a list by me with them all

AGplusone: (or the “Whites” … ?)

Dehede03: and SAcademy

Gaeltachta: “Sarge” Arthur George Smith

AGplusone: [John and Jenny, of course, being the characters in the story into whose backyard, so to speak, Dan

AGplusone: drops in]

ddavitt: Yes…that was funny; their being nude really threw him

ddavitt: threw

ddavitt: He didn’t know if he’d made it back to 1970 or not

Dehede03: Oops, I had thought John and Jenny were RAH & Ginny

ddavitt: nice twist

AGplusone: :-)

OakMan 7111: another example of a heinlein hero leraning that no every one did things the way he did

Dehede03: Sorry

AGplusone: RAH making himself a Lawyer? Good Lord!

DavidWrightSr: John was a lawyer!!

ddavitt: They didn’t feel like that

ddavitt: They were nice but ordinary

Dehede03: the mind of John felt incisive

DenvToday: Horrible thought. Only thing worse would be a literary critic.

DavidWrightSr: Of course, didn’t you know? All of RAH’s characters were himself 😀

Gaeltachta: They seemed like nice people…….. for nudists! j/k

ddavitt: I have to go eat. I will stay online. brb

AGplusone: come back … we need to decide on a topic

AGplusone: we once had a topic–lawyers in Heinlein–is it time for that again?

DenvToday: I’ve been on a “juvenile” binge this week. Citizen of the Galaxy, Starman Jones, The Rolling Stones.

DenvToday: All since Monday.

AGplusone: Miles vs. Sutton … etc. …

OakMan 7111: I envy you Ron

Dehede03: And I am re-reading my all time favorite, TEFL

DenvToday: I fell in love with Hazel Stone all over again.

Dehede03: I haven’t plumbed that one’s depth yet.

DavidWrightSr: I’m 999 pages throught the German version of ‘The Past Through Tomorrow’ only 100 or so to go

AGplusone: There’s another thing in Door Into Summer that I always loved …

AGplusone: the figure of the great failed scientist … Tesla, I really believe

AGplusone: considering that he really conducted all those experiments in Colorado

Dehede03: BRB – my lunch of bean soup has turned vicious

AGplusone: do we have any ‘great failed scientist’ figures today … the cold fisson or fusion guys, for example?

DavidWrightSr: You mean that the inventor of the time machine was supposed to be based on Tesla?

AGplusone: I always thought so, perhaps, Dave

DavidWrightSr: Interesting.

AGplusone: What great failed scientific discoveries do we have today that looked promising in 1970?

AGplusone: Are there any?

Gaeltachta: Scientists don’t seem as famous nowadays………

DenvToday: We’re still working on fusion–cold or otherwise.

AGplusone: that is true, Sean …

Dehede03: It isn’t a great one, but the channel wing airplane

DJedPar: Ginny, do you have any idea who Jenny was based on?

Gaeltachta: So if they fail…… no one knows……

Dehede03: We have the volantor 400 testing this summer after years of experimentation.

AGplusone: is the channel wing the one that is based on sunpower and flies effectively as long as there’s sun

DavidWrightSr: Well, we can now dictate and have a machine print it out.

AGplusone: shinning down on it

AGplusone: or something else, Ron?

Dehede03: No the channel wing had a C shaped wing wrapping around the bottom half of the prop

DavidWrightSr: So ‘Dictation Daisy’ is real.

AGplusone: It is … I’ve been trying IBMs ViaVoice lately

AGplusone: and the Drafting Dan is just a program now

Dehede03: But the Volantor 400, if successful will totally change transportation

SAcademy: I am afraid I don’t have any idea who Jenny was based on.

AGplusone: Nice portrait — Jenny’s character.

DJedPar: 😎

AGplusone: 😀

DavidWrightSr: Amused at Dan for never having put his invention to use for himself.

AGplusone: Yes …

DavidWrightSr: As I mentioned Thursday, the remote teller machine is now a reality.

AGplusone: It’s them trees out thar, kain’t hardly see the forest.

AGplusone: The voder … Stephen Hawking!

Dehede03: Dave you forgot to add “no how.”

DJedPar: Aren’t the current CAD drafting programs, Drafting Dan?

AGplusone: Yes, that’s what I thought I referred to …

Dehede03: In a sense but wasn’t drafting dan mechanical

AGplusone: except he didn’t anticipate the “mouse” ….

Dehede03: CAD is strictly a piece of software

Gaeltachta: Cars were mentioned …. any scientific development there?

DJedPar: Maybe he disliked rats!

AGplusone: perhaps … maybe Pixel ate all the mice that showed up

DavidWrightSr: in 1955, the paradigm of computers still hadn’t taken hold, so mechanical was the normal way to think

AGplusone: Or Pete!!!!

Gaeltachta: Both in 1970 and 2001….

DJedPar: 😉

Dehede03: But consider that the desktop came around 1980 and in NOB he had a pretty good representation

AGplusone: Which of RAH’s cats was most like Pete, Ginny? Did he ever train one to travel

DenvToday: Yet to be invented: sausage, black olive and pepperoni pizza for under 500 calories.

AGplusone: in a bag, or drink ginger ale?

AGplusone: Or know one …. ?

AGplusone: that did

SAcademy: Pete was our Pixie–Blassingame Pixilated Arroyo

AGplusone: Every once in a while, someone says Door would be the easier one of his novels

DenvToday: Wonderful name. I wish mine was as impressive.

AGplusone: to make a movie, but I keep thinking, how would you get a cat to play Pete.

DenvToday: Computer Graphics for Pete.

DJedPar: Ask Snowy. He do it in a minute.

SAcademy: Oh, they were all impressive. We also had Taffrail Lord Plusbottom

AGplusone: Have to have a lot of takes to get “Pete’s finest hour!” …

DenvToday: lol

AGplusone: and lots of dead extras for Belle and Miles

SAcademy: Anyone remember the Pirate?

Dehede03: With the special effects we have today Pete’s finest hour might not be too tough.

DenvToday: Eliot would have been impressed by that name!

AGplusone: Some how Pete always put me in mind of a Bobcat … j/k

Dehede03: SA, I don’t remember the pirate but that tickles my memory.

AGplusone: Pirate is the one in Puppet Masters

DavidWrightSr: Jane and David. I’m going to have to leave for a while. I have two machines recording, but…

AGplusone: right

DavidWrightSr: should you see both of us drop out, could you please record and send me the log.

AGplusone: ‘kay, Dave

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. Try to get back soon.

AGplusone: The thing we don’t have … is supercats! Now if Andre Norton had ever met Robert, maybe they could

AGplusone: have bred a species … Pete, plus her genetically enhanced cats, a la Star Man’s Son …

DJedPar: Speaking of cats, does anyone else think the Heinlein crater on Mars looks like Taffy?

Dehede03: Isn’t it strange that we have superintelligent talking mules & dogs in SF but not cats.

OakMan 7111: Pride of Chanur

AGplusone: except for Norton’s ones …

Dehede03: Pride of chanur has them OM??

Dehede03: Great

DenvToday: Ron, I think it’s because most cats would consider having human intellect a comedown.

AGplusone: maybe we feel that a superintelligent cat would take over the world and do away with us?

OakMan 7111: Nope they’d keep us around to handle refrigerator doors

Dehede03: There are two Rons here. May I be Dee??

DenvToday: Of course.

AGplusone: Or have us make refrigerator doors they can open easier than they already do?

OakMan 7111: I suspect that they >like< having us open doors

AGplusone: Put a little piece of wood on the bottom of the door they can hook their claws into …

DJedPar: There’s an idea – a cat door for the fridge.

AGplusone: problem is you’d have to make the door very light so they can get out when they find the light doesn’t

Dehede03: Right and make getting under the sink easier for toddlers

AGplusone: stay on.

Dehede03: LOL

DenvToday: A cat with opposable thumbs would rule the world in short order.

Dehede03: That sounds like Little Fuzzy

AGplusone: Not sure they don’t have opposable thumbs already … I’ve watched mine open wooden doors into rooms

AGplusone: by hooking his claw underneath

AGplusone: and pulling

AGplusone: so long as the latch isn’t fully caught he can do it

SAcademy: Does Bob do that?

OakMan 7111: I wonder if the ability to figure out the environment of man is unique to cats and dogs

AGplusone: Yes, all the time

Dehede03: If we did a feast for RAH’s birthday what should be the menu.

AGplusone: I can’t keep him in a room

OakMan 7111: or if other species could do it, if we made pets of them

Gaeltachta: These cat inventions go against the master-servant relationship….

AGplusone: which makes it interesting when someone visits with a dog

Gaeltachta: Cats don’t *wan’t* these tasks….

AGplusone: because he is very territorial

OakMan 7111: I agree Sean

SAcademy: I can keep Snowy in a room by staying there myself.

DenvToday: “Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.” – RAH

Gaeltachta: Yes…. that’s the quote!

Dehede03: Pretty girls and butterflys……..

AGplusone: Odd, in Summer, they experimented with cats …

AGplusone: with cold sleep.

AGplusone: Didn’t think they did a lot of that.

OakMan 7111: In Aliens, Ripley saves the cat and takes it into cold sleep with her

Gaeltachta: The cat in _Alien_ “Jonesy”….

OakMan 7111: gmta

SAcademy: They do use cats in psychology experiments!

DenvToday: Starcat Jones?

Gaeltachta: :-)

AGplusone: wonder what position PETA (yuck) takes on cats being used. I’ve heard they think them slaves and best

AGplusone: subjects for extinction.

DJedPar: The Aliens cat looked like Pixel

AGplusone: At least that’s what they say when they demand license fees and leash laws for them

OakMan 7111: Peta wants leash laws???

AGplusone: Yeah, and $300 license fees for unspayed cats.

DenvToday: Oak, PETA is in favor of anything–as long as it’s mandatory.

AGplusone: [that fortunately went no where before the LA City Council a year ago]

OakMan 7111: Amazing. there seems to be no good idea that cannot be made bad by putting it into

DenvToday: I’d be in favor of a $300 fee for unspayed PETA memebers.

OakMan 7111: the hands of a few dogmatics

Dehede03: The councilmen wanted to stay in office?

AGplusone: I think so …

AGplusone: Denv: LOL

DenvToday: Dogmatics and catmatics

Gaeltachta: Was it a cat I saw?

OakMan 7111: No these seem more like Ass-mathics

OakMan 7111: gee, it wasn’t that bad a pun…

DenvToday: lol It was quite good!

AGplusone: It’s odd, another thing about prediction … can we say anything about his ever making

AGplusone: a true ‘political’ prediction about form of government that wasn’t a mind experiment?

AGplusone: a la, Starship Troopers, or Moon Is A Harsh Mistress?

DJedPar: That’s a tough question.

AGplusone: It seems he made a lot of examples, good and bad …

DenvToday: Thank goodness Rev. Scudder hasn’t taken power–yet.

AGplusone: the abbreviated administrative process in Star Beast for example

AGplusone: as a good one.

SAcademy: We both predicted the 1964 election, and got out of the country in time.

OakMan 7111: Our President’s favorite philospher was Jesus, so we’re getting there

AGplusone: “Do unto others … ”

SAcademy: I didn’t like either one., so I didn’t vote.

AGplusone: can we think of other ‘good predictions’ made from any of the books?

AGplusone: examplars of improvements?

Dehede03: Looks like the sun screen is coming along

SAcademy: Depends on what you call improvements.

AGplusone: The Troopers’ mandated ‘responsibility’ …

DenvToday: TEFL starts with the perfect form of government–a benevolent dictatorship tempered…

DJedPar: The water bed?

DenvToday: …by the occasional assassination.

AGplusone: sorta tough on the glorious leader, of course ….

OakMan 7111: Keeps him on his toes

DenvToday: AG, it keeps politicians humble.

Dehede03: Gotta go guys, time for dinner.

OakMan 7111: bye de

AGplusone: maybe what goes on today in news reporting of private lives is ‘an occasional assassination’

SAcademy: Bye Ron

DenvToday: Bye Dee.

Dehede03: Bye folks.

Dehede03 has left the room.

SAcademy: He really slammed the door, didn’t he?

DenvToday: lol

AGplusone: the business about the two Bush girls a form of close miss to keep the benevolent dictator’s mind on

AGplusone: something besides ‘bidness’? :-)

DJedPar: 😀

AGplusone: poor kids

OakMan 7111: a couple of folks who could have embaressed Clinton ended up dead

AGplusone:

DJedPar: Is that surprising?

DenvToday: The problem with press “assassinations” is that the scoundrels (such as Clinton) ignore it, and the..

SAcademy: Quite a few of them if you read Drudge!

DenvToday: …good ones (such as …um..uh…) won’t run because of it.

AGplusone: do you really think they ignore it, Ron … ?

AGplusone: I’d think it wears them down.

DenvToday: David, perhaps not ignore. But a Clinton simply can’t be embarrassed.

SAcademy: LOL

AGplusone: keeps them from really getting into a serious malignant dictatorship

AGplusone: maybe

DenvToday: Actually, I did think of a good politician. Barry Goldwater. To a lesser extent, Reagan.

ddavitt: I’m back and all full of lime and cilantro salmon in pitta bread.

DenvToday: Yum!

ddavitt: The Bush girls makes me laugh; they’re 19!

DJedPar: Bring me some, please.

OakMan 7111: Maybe, we’ll see if Hillary tries to continue the reign of the royal family

ddavitt: Legal age is 18 in UK so i can’t get worked up over it

AGplusone: I thought it was sixteen

ddavitt: All gone.:-(

ddavitt: No; that’s sex.

DenvToday: Oak, scoundrels always try. What’s depressing is that the mob allows them to do it.

ddavitt: Logic/ We don’t need no stinkin’ logic…

DenvToday: Bye the mob, I mean the poplulace, not Don Corleone. Although Hillary wouldn’t be above it.

ddavitt: Can be a married and/or a mother but can’t drink or vote

AGplusone: Seems to me, if a president doesn’t attact assassination attempts, Drudge type even, then

AGplusone: he’s not doing enough to bother with.

AGplusone: ‘tother side of the society becoming inbred

OakMan 7111: Or they’re more worried about the Veep

AGplusone: [there’s that too]

ddavitt: Are you all done on the topic then? Or is this just the natural drift towards politics? :-)

DenvToday: Jane, I’ve been amused by the way the American media are SHOCKED that 19-year-old college…

ddavitt: And alcohol…and food….

DenvToday: …students try to order liquor.

AGplusone: No, we’re talking about political predictions, Jane … what ones did RAH make?

ddavitt: Heh:-)

ddavitt: I was in pubs from about 17.

AGplusone: politics doesn’t play much of a role in Door Into Summer, why is dat?

SAcademy: So was I Jane.

ddavitt: made an idiot of myself, got a few hangovers, learned my lesson

OakMan 7111: As if there weren’t any in the future

AGplusone: If it’s his most predictive novel, why didn’t he predict political changes?

ddavitt: Too touchy

ddavitt: Or realised that they might be unrecognisable

AGplusone: maybe they don’t really matter enough to bother with … you suffer politics IRL

OakMan 7111: Or his editors took them out?

Gaeltachta: I think his economics lesson was…… expect the unexpected…..

ddavitt: Or just not part of Dan’ s POV; he was an inventor and quite an intovert

ddavitt: introvert

AGplusone: if they bomb Sandia, if you’re upwind, then live goes on

AGplusone: life

ddavitt: It’s his take on it, not an overview

SAcademy: Have to learn sometime.

ddavitt: Oh yes.

AGplusone: The ‘changes’ occur because of what? An international political event … a war?

ddavitt: One thing about Door that provokes some comment on afh is the atitude towards spaying cats.

OakMan 7111: What about the future of Friday – seems like that’s where we’re headed, sometimes

ddavitt: Did Mr heinlein change his views on that at al?

AGplusone: that’s true

ddavitt: It’s so necessary now, with the humane societies full and feral cats on the rise

AGplusone: one way we’ll be governed is ‘divide and conquer’ …

OakMan 7111: Microsoft versus AOL?

ddavitt: I felt a pang when we had our two done but the Humane society insist when you adopt

AGplusone: California vs. Texas will leave it open for that

AGplusone: by-n-by

DenvToday: Jane, I’m sure your cats are very happy.

ddavitt: Belle was made to seem a villain for wanting to have Pete fixed..

OakMan 7111: Presumably, CA is trying to get Alaska to ally with it, to insure sufficient energy?

DJedPar: Belle was an archvillain!

AGplusone: governments will matter less and less, because there will be a break in the connection and …

ddavitt: Wel, I don’t know but I don’t want them making kittens that end up where we rescue them from

OakMan 7111: Belle would have enjoyed watching Pete get fixed

AGplusone: confusion and government won’t matter

ddavitt: Our friend is a vet who goes there each month to put down the ones that noone chose; harrowing job

DJedPar: The bitch!

ddavitt: She had bad motives

ddavitt: But spaying/neutering isn’t evil

DenvToday: IMHO, RAH was against anything that robbed the individual of his/her nature. That would include…

DenvToday: …fixing, I think.

AGplusone: Do feral cats really do anything that matters, except keep you awake nights in your back alley?

ddavitt: Sure..but it’s needed.

OakMan 7111: And Belle was using Pete as a standin for Dan.

ddavitt: They die.

OakMan 7111: Ferals die quite sadly

ddavitt: They live hungry and unloved.

DJedPar: In farmland they freeze to death on the road.

AGplusone: well, so too do all living things

OakMan 7111: But Cats are different, david

AGplusone: including human beans

ddavitt: Well, all our cats but one have been fixed.

Gaeltachta: Feral cats here kill native animals…….

AGplusone: how do we know they die any more sadly than Bob will die, pampered and fat?

ddavitt: I think they have had longer lives, safer lives. As a ‘parent’, it’s a choice I made

AGplusone: Bob kills native animals …

AGplusone: haven’t had hummingbirds since we got him

DenvToday: Jane, I’m sure you made the right choice.

AGplusone: nesting, anyway

DJedPar: That’s true about living longer.

ddavitt: Mac brought in abird and a chipmunk today. He is on a killing spree

Gaeltachta: Yeah….. so does Rebel…… but not as many……

OakMan 7111: David, pets animals are not meant to be abandoned

AGplusone: I agree

AGplusone: but, assume they’ve been abandoned, what difference does it make that they are around

DenvToday: Oak, many are. A friend of mine runs an animal shelter in CA. People abandon their pets in the…

ddavitt: It’s nature…but so am I so if I can I rescue them.

DenvToday: …mountains when they’re tired of them.

OakMan 7111: But we cannot, litterally cannot, make pets of the number of cats that can be born each year

AGplusone: agree … and we never did …

AGplusone: been feral cats since the dawn of time

OakMan 7111: I used to go with a group to the UMASS dorms 3 days after the end of the school year

AGplusone: who do they bother except people who think their sleep is being interrupted

OakMan 7111: We usually found about a dozen cats left with a bowl of water to last them the summer

DenvToday: However, the same holds true about deer hunting. PETA types do their best to obstruct hunting, but..

ddavitt: david, that isn’t a factor; I’ve never been disturbed by them, at night

OakMan 7111: Their pai bothers me, David.

DenvToday: …thousands of deer freeze and starve to death during out winter.

OakMan 7111: pain

ddavitt: I just hate to see them half starved and scared

DenvToday: our winter, that is.

AGplusone: bothers me too, yet it’s their life …

ddavitt: Plus, in Canada we have rabies

AGplusone: get rabid squirrels here

ddavitt: Which makes them a potential danger to humans

OakMan 7111: Ron, I agree. I have some concerns about Hunters culling the best instead of the worst

ddavitt: or our pet cats

AGplusone: if they’re rabid they kill off the squirrels in the parks by poison

OakMan 7111: but other than that, the herds must be culled

SAcademy: College kids would take cats out to the country and abandon them there.

DenvToday: Oak, I agree.

ddavitt: Scum!

AGplusone: haven’t got around to spaying squirrels yet

ddavitt: You have to do what you can david.

DenvToday: David, that’s why God invented cars.

AGplusone: … at least I think they haven’t …

OakMan 7111: They’re trying to chemically spay the Beaver in western mass

AGplusone: probably be spraying them with oral contraceptives eventually

DenvToday: Oak, you might want to rephrase that. lol

AGplusone: really?

ddavitt: For me, that means not adding to the cat population if the resultant kittens will be killed

OakMan 7111: the swimming flattailed rodents population?

AGplusone: well, that’s your responsibility, Jane … but why spay them?

DenvToday: much better. rofl

ddavitt: I wouldn’t have had babies if i thought they would be born to hunger and pain.

AGplusone: why don’t you just get them the pill, or inplants

ddavitt: I don’t like to keep cats in.

ddavitt: If they go out, they will get pregnant/impregnate others

ddavitt: fact of life

DJedPar: They live a lot longer if they stay in.

AGplusone: So will your daughters

OakMan 7111: Born to Die is not something I would wish on any member of a species that had the

ddavitt: Tho here in canda, cats are kept in lots more than UK; i get barbed comments

DJedPar: Ditto.

OakMan 7111: special agreement we’ve made with dogs and cats

DenvToday: Farnham’s Freehold. Slaves were fixed.

AGplusone: where did the dog and the cat sign up for that?

ddavitt: You are anthromprhosizing

OakMan 7111: Want Kipling’s theory?

ddavitt: spelling..but you know what I mean

AGplusone: sure ….

SAcademy: Yes, please.

OakMan 7111: It was warmer and they got fed

ddavitt: cat Who walks…

ddavitt: Good story

AGplusone: Well, next time my neighbor gets hungry I can feed him and then spay him too?

DenvToday: SA, as I mentioned before, I reread The Rolling Stones this week. Did David Gerrold every…

OakMan 7111: But the Dog agreed to do whatever man wanted – the Cat couldn’t accept slavery – he wanted a partners

OakMan 7111: hip

DenvToday: ever, that is…ever give RAH credit for Tribbles?

OakMan 7111: damn AOL for their new typing limits

DenvToday: I agree Oak. grrrr

ddavitt: I thought he did and heinlein said he had the plot from a story about pigs?

OakMan 7111: I may create a front end for IM that parses out long lines into a series of acceptable ones

AGplusone: which I’m willing to give him (a partnership) … Bob wandered into my back yard one day and said, “Hi

ddavitt: That would be good

AGplusone: I’m willing to live here as long as you feed me.”

SAcademy: Yes, Jane, “Pigs is pigs” by Ellis Parker Butler.

AGplusone: In return for which, I’ll rule you every day.

SAcademy: It’s a howlingly funny story.

OakMan 7111: And you were honored?

ddavitt: That’s because you’re a man; I”M head cat in our house:-)

OakMan 7111: ROFL

AGplusone: Sure. And I’ll put up with a little spraying around the house, if I catch him, I’ll put him outside.

ddavitt: Spraying isn’t fun. It’s hard to clean up

AGplusone: I know where my wife keeps the amonia under the sink.

AGplusone: Been there, done that.

ddavitt: No!

ddavitt: Bleach is the same smell as they make; they spray more, thinking it’s a rival

ddavitt: Use something non ammonia

AGplusone: bleach is different than ammonia

ddavitt: Well, ammonia then

SAcademy: Bleach and ammonia are quite different!

ddavitt: David is lying on the floor lecturing me about chemicals now

ddavitt: While he plays with Lauren. I am chastened

AGplusone: soap works well

ddavitt: But it’s still the case about the smell

AGplusone: so …

AGplusone: I smell

ddavitt: I read it when our cats in UK were weeing all over the place.

ddavitt: Only cats we ever had who did that.

AGplusone: I submit that spraying and howling away in the night is insufficient reason to alter cats

ddavitt: It is. I agree.

ddavitt: That’s not why i do it.

SAcademy: Robert thought so.

ddavitt: But maybe that’s enough on this? Agree to differ?

AGplusone: yes, but too many use the poor dying kittens as an excuse …

OakMan 7111: David, I think you should see if you can find a vet anywhere who will tell you that cats

AGplusone: most of them have never seen a starving kitten

ddavitt: No excuse; I’ve seen them

OakMan 7111: should not be spayed

AGplusone: don’t care what the vet says

AGplusone: he makes money catering to what his clients want

DJedPar: That vet will be gard to find.

ddavitt: i move a subject change.

DJedPar: Hard

OakMan 7111: Okay, then we are talking your belief system and we need to change the subject

ddavitt: At least to sort out next topic

AGplusone: but that is a belief system encompassed in Door

DJedPar: Great idea

ddavitt: SA; do you have a topic you’d like to see us discuss?

AGplusone: Last thought: is it possibly an allegory?

SAcademy: I can’t think of one now.

DJedPar: Please?

ddavitt: If you ever do…

OakMan 7111: Okay, you’re right – there are also suggestions in some RAH that Lawyers are

ddavitt: we will give it priority

OakMan 7111: ….

ddavitt: Could be AG; Dan thought so.

ddavitt: Might be warning that Belle is not all she seems

OakMan 7111: but I think there are some good lawyers and some good reasons to encouraging birth control among our

OakMan 7111: pets

ddavitt: Funny; I had to look this up

ddavitt: He says she remembers Roosevelt being President

Gaeltachta: My cat Rebel was “altered” quite early….. but still lives up to his name….

ddavitt: And so may be older than 23ish

ddavitt: I had to check this

ddavitt: But it just fits

AGplusone: Maybe Belle is the “Big Nanny” we’ve all come to love and accept? 😉

Gaeltachta: He follows me 500 meters up the road….. then stops…….

ddavitt: I wondered if it was a different time line

Gaeltachta: ….. a big dog lives near there…….

ddavitt: She would have been about 3

ddavitt: Sometimes hard to remember how old some of the books are; they seems so fresh

DJedPar: Timeless books, all of them.

ddavitt: But Door is 44 years old!

AGplusone: It’s 2001. Door is fresh as yesterday. Dan just came through.

AGplusone: the second time

ddavitt: Wow…and we are where he cold slept to; that’s why i suggested this topic.

ddavitt: Seemed so interesting!

DJedPar: Good topic.

ddavitt: So; who wants now and who wants dan’s version?

OakMan 7111: I want a space station. I was promised a space station by 2001

ddavitt: Nearly got one

Gaeltachta: I remember reading Door in the 70’s…… Wondering about 2001….

ddavitt: I want a holiday on the moon

ddavitt: Me too; late 1970’s

AGplusone: I want a robot to do house cleaning!

OakMan 7111: I want to retire to the moon and live to be 300

ddavitt: See you there:-)

ddavitt: Watch me fly in the Bats Cave

DJedPar: I want Friday to be my friend.

OakMan 7111: You bet – we’ll dance a waltz in Zero G

AGplusone: … just clean the house.

SAcademy: You probably wouldn’t like living to be 300. Life gets tiring.

AGplusone: So I can do ‘other things’!

ddavitt: I’ll pack my dancing shoes

Gaeltachta: I wanna make fun of “ground-hogs”……

ddavitt: So lazarus found out…

SAcademy: Ice skates! Imagine the jumps!

ddavitt: But I would like a bit longer than the current span if i could be healthy at the same time

ddavitt: Good cross post from a skating group once on afh Ginny

ddavitt: They read the Puddin story about skating

OakMan 7111: I’m just wondering if in low g, my hair will stop thinning out

ddavitt: We had a thread about skating on the moon; would the ice float away

SAcademy: Really? Jane tell me about it? Please

ddavitt: Would it hold an edge

ddavitt: I will look it up on Google for you

ddavitt: Thye were very nice people

Gaeltachta: On Mars?…….

ddavitt: What cross posters should be; they came, asked a question, chatted and left

Gaeltachta: Or the Moon?……. I can’t remember?

ddavitt: It was about 2 years ago so i can’t recall all details

ddavitt: AG?

ddavitt: Do you?

SAcademy: If you can find it Jane, I’d like to read it.

ddavitt: I will; Google is up now and goes back to 1995

SAcademy: I didn’t know.

Gaeltachta: I remember talk about skating in Red Planet….. whether that was possible or not? Different thread?

DJedPar: Get on skates in low G and you won’t worry about hair.

SAcademy: Figure skating–not speed stuff.

ddavitt: It may have been Sean; i started that one IIRC

Gaeltachta: Yeah…. about 12 months ago (I think)

ddavitt: Heinlein said in Grumbles that he had an error in RP that none spotted; turned out that at low temps,

ddavitt: ice skates don’t cut an edge

ddavitt: But he had to have the boys skating for the story

DJedPar: That’s true

ddavitt: I wanted to know what the error was; that was it we decided

ddavitt: Heinlein didn’t give details

SAcademy: No school figures?

DJedPar: It’s a very good guess.

ddavitt: It seemed reasonable

SAcademy: The ice melts as you skate over it.

DJedPar: Ginny are you still thinking about skating again?

SAcademy: Because of your weight.

SAcademy: I’d love to., but I can’t get to the rink. Dont drive anymore.

ddavitt: He says it involved a too low crystallization point of water in Grumbles

DJedPar: At 50 below F ice doesn’t melt.

ddavitt: Was making the point that Alice didn’t spot it but was moaning about science errors

SAcademy: Not even from weight on it?

DJedPar: Alice was a stupid B.

DJedPar: No, I tried it. Rough ride.

AGplusone: clueless is maybe a better description … and vicious is what I read from the letters

ddavitt: Heinlein knew it was wrong but decided it wasn’t going to get spotted; didn’t forsee us nitpickers:-)

SAcademy: Well, who said it was fifty below anywqy? It mmight be warmer.

DJedPar: 😀

ddavitt: We don’t know how cold it was on mars anyway…

ddavitt: I think he might give a figure in RP; but it’s not that important.

DJedPar: No, I meant it was 50 below once when I tried it.

ddavitt: At one point the ice melts in the day so it can’t have been that cold

SAcademy: AT what point does it stop melting as you apply weight?

DJedPar: There goes the engineer again.

OakMan 7111: I need to be going now. Take care of yourselves, and your cats

SAcademy: Why not??

DenvToday: Bye Oak.

DJedPar: Bye

DenvToday: Take care!

OakMan 7111: bye

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

AGplusone: When you tried it, Denis, what happened? Below 50?

SAcademy: Bye.

DJedPar: I nearly froze to death, forgot about skating.

AGplusone: screeching halt?

ddavitt: Ginny, if you go to Deja/google, advanced search, type in skating and altfanheinlein

ddavitt: You will get the thread

AGplusone: I can see that, but, assuming you’re thermally protected, is it possible to skate somehow?

DJedPar: The colder it gets the worse you play hockey. No grab.

SAcademy: Okay, Thanks Jane I will try it.

ddavitt: Called ‘Heinlein skating story” in may 1999

AGplusone: Double blades, the teeth used on front of figure skates?

ddavitt: About 30 posts in it.

AGplusone: Anything possible to give more control at that temp?

SAcademy: Not double, they’re hollow ground.

DJedPar: Do you skate with toothy skates in hockey?

AGplusone: Of course not

ddavitt: Eleanor learned to skate this year but I still haven’t; all Canadians seem born skaters

DJedPar: 😀

AGplusone: Just wondering if something could make it possible to do so.

ddavitt: Why can figure skaters do so much more now/ better skates? Training?

SAcademy: Denis has Canadian and U. S. citizensip.

ddavitt: Women doing triples as unheard of 20 years ago

DJedPar: Thanks Ginny. Skaters now have more support from fans.

ddavitt: Do you skate then Denis?

SAcademy: You bet. Triple jumps. They do now.

DJedPar: Yes.

AGplusone: Heated skates?

ddavitt: Ok, I have to go and put babies in bed.

DJedPar: That’s a thought. Heated socks too.

ddavitt: let me know about the topic

AGplusone: Well, yeah, that too.

SAcademy: You can’t heat skates, the metal would lose its temper.

AGplusone: Some metal that might stand up to heat?

AGplusone: Without losing temper?

DJedPar: Robert would have figured out a plan.

AGplusone: I’m planning how I skate on Mars when I get there.

AGplusone: Or maybe a moon of Jupiter

AGplusone: Is it Europa that’s got all the ice.

ddavitt has left the room.

SAcademy: And I would have told him “You can’t do that/”

DJedPar: You would! And he would have smiled.

AGplusone: Give an engineer a slide rule and an imagination to put it on and he’ll move the world

DJedPar: Or she!

AGplusone: that too … wonder if that was original

DJedPar: Ginny’s a good engineer.

AGplusone: someone had to have said it before

DJedPar: She’s never told me why there are 2 gas pedals on Roberts car.

SAcademy: Sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt the discussion.

AGplusone: There were two?

AGplusone: One on the right side as well?

DJedPar: Uhuh…

SAcademy: He used the left footed one. I used the other one.

DJedPar: I’m trying to picture that with both of you in the car.

SAcademy: Just hang it up on the special rack for that.

AGplusone: I have an imaginary brake pedal I use when I sit on the right side when my daughter drives …

SAcademy: Separately.

DJedPar: :-[

AGplusone: Well, we need a topic for next time …

SAcademy: Or have it removed.

DJedPar: Back to skating on Mars?

AGplusone: Sean?

Gaeltachta: David?

SAcademy: No to the topic.

Gaeltachta: :-)

Gaeltachta: I’m thinking……..

AGplusone: How ’bout ‘aliens’?

AGplusone: Did we ever do that?

DJedPar: That sounds good. Lots of aliens.

Gaeltachta: What about possible Heinlein films?…….. Everyone runs with this topic on AFH?

DJedPar: That’s good too – films.

AGplusone: How ’bout scripting one … but which one?

AGplusone: I’ve been listening to the old radio shows …

AGplusone: the script changes in the two I’ve found are a little interesting

SAcademy: Do you have those on tapes?

AGplusone: There’s a site that has “universe”

AGplusone: Jon linked it to our webpage

SAcademy: The whole thing? It’s half an hour, isn’t it?

AGplusone: And I have the copy of Elephants that Neil scripted

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: And there are others available.

SAcademy: The old radio plays seem to be in the public domain now.

AGplusone: use the link at the far bottom in the heinleinsociety.org

AGplusone: page to find the Universe show. NBC show

Gaeltachta: Are the interesting changes due to the different medium?

AGplusone: They must be …

DJedPar: Thanks.

AGplusone: I’d think so.

AGplusone: And some due to continuity I think

Gaeltachta: Yes…… So, what further changes could we expect in filmed versions?….

SAcademy: They use a narrator for that. don’t they? I don’t remember.

AGplusone: In Elephants, they used another character Neil invented

AGplusone: A sort of fair barker that tags along with the man

AGplusone: blithering in his ear

SAcademy: There were three or four of those radio shows. Xerox put them in the public domain.

AGplusone: In Universe they have a narrator, but they use a truncation of the events

AGplusone: to get Hugh exiled

AGplusone: the old historian is changed a bit into a plot device

Gaeltachta: I’ll have a look at the Universe link….. What about “Common Sense”?

AGplusone: Haven’t heard it yet …

AGplusone: Green Hills is another

Gaeltachta: Does it exist I mean?

AGplusone: I may have to order it

AGplusone: Dunno

AGplusone: but there are several that were done

SAcademy: Yes, with Burl Ives

AGplusone: as Ginny said

AGplusone: They are listed, some of them, via the link Jon put up at the bottom of our links pg

DJedPar: What?

AGplusone: others can be ordered

AGplusone: or downloaded for $

Gaeltachta: I borrowed an audio tape from my local library……..

AGplusone: hold on and I’ll dig up a e mail that lists them

Gaeltachta: Leonard Nimoy narrating Green Hills of Earth…. and Gentlemen, Be Seated

SAcademy: That was recorded on a record. I don’t think they had it for anything else.

SAcademy: It’s like trying to hold a handful of sand!!!

DJedPar: Nimoy did a good job there.

Gaeltachta: I enjoyed it……

AGplusone: http://www.old-time.com/sponsors/radiomemories/regular/index.html

SAcademy: It tells me “page cannot be displayed.”

AGplusone: “The Green Hills of Earth,” “Destination Moon,” “The Roads Must Roll,” “Universe,” and “Requiem.”

AGplusone: You have to type the entire two lines in …

SAcademy: I used it as a link.

DJedPar: A friend of mine got a 10 tape version of Mistress but she couldn’t tell me where it came from.

AGplusone: Hmm

SAcademy: Blackstone Audio does it.

DenvToday: Whoever recorded it must have been a fast speaker.

AGplusone: The same site lined from our site has versions of Stranger, Troopers, and Friday available

AGplusone: Friday, IIRC runs seventeen hours

DJedPar: Wow!

SAcademy: Even TEFL is available on tapes.

AGplusone: And Stranger is in two parts …

SAcademy: I just got a copy of it.

AGplusone: at about double that size. That’s right, TEFL is on that site too

AGplusone: They can all be downloaded

DJedPar: Is Starbeast on tape?

AGplusone: and played on computer

SAcademy: Stranger, too.

SAcademy: No, Denis

DJedPar: :-(

AGplusone: We may have a copy of Red Planet available too, shortly.

DenvToday: I’ve heard the Double Star audio tape. I wasn’t crazy about the actor.

SAcademy: Who knows? It might be in the future.

AGplusone: Ginny gave a teacher’s organization permission to record it for a project they’re doing with

AGplusone: ‘special education’ students.

SAcademy: I did? I didn';t know that. I suspect it’s piracy

AGplusone: Yes, Double Star was also listed ….

SAcademy: And I didn’t do that either. I know I didn’t.

AGplusone: Sure, remember that letter from the ‘reading from the future’ group, you referred them to

AGplusone: Eleanor, and she said okay.

SAcademy: Eleanor?

AGplusone: They’re going to be demonstrating their research results at Phil Con

AGplusone: Woods?

SAcademy: Wood.

AGplusone: Wood

AGplusone: reading for the future is the name of the group

AGplusone: It’s the group Brin, Baer, and Binford sponsor

SAcademy: Okay. I have to back her up.

AGplusone: They are restricting access to the recording completely, Ginny

AGplusone: Just their project

DJedPar: Eleanor in deep doodoo?

SAcademy: No. If I told her okay, it’s okay, But I don’t remember it.

SAcademy: Guess I';m slipping.

AGplusone: I have a couple e mail referring to it.

AGplusone: I’ll send them along …

SAcademy: Thank you David.

DJedPar: Topic?

AGplusone: They’re very grateful, by the way, for the permission. It’s a good project

AGplusone: Kids who basically cannot read

SAcademy: Okay. I just didn’t remember it.

SAcademy: No recording allowed, I assume?

AGplusone: Yes, none whatsoever!

DJedPar: Robert predicted the decline in reading.

SAcademy: That’s all right unless someone sneaks one in.

AGplusone: He did, didn’t he?

DJedPar: and Literacy

AGplusone: They’ve suggested that you control how copies of that CD, if any, are distributed to any other teacher

AGplusone: who may wish to duplicate their successes with the project.

AGplusone: So you and Art may wish to review some stuff I send you.

AGplusone: Back to topic?

SAcademy: I believe we had better do that!

AGplusone: Oh, yes.!!!

DJedPar: Good!

AGplusone: [I’m watching them, Ginny.] 😉

DJedPar: Where are we?

SAcademy: Aliens

AGplusone: I think we could try that … maybe with the cross-over into how you would make a movie including them

DJedPar: Good alien stuff in M’s Children

AGplusone: and which ones …

AGplusone: and why ???

DenvToday: Some of the most interesting aliens are in Starman Jones. The symbiosis of the centaurs and the…

DenvToday: …flying jellyfish.

DJedPar: Yes! Yes!

AGplusone: Better than just “bugs” running all over to make targets ….

AGplusone: for idiots who don’t know anything about tactics to shoot.

Gaeltachta: Gotta take my son to the train station….. It’s been a pleasure…..

DenvToday: Bye Gael.

DJedPar: Bye

AGplusone: bye, Sean

Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: Which novels or stories would we ask them to start reading to prepare to discuss it?

AGplusone: After Time For the Stars of course?

AGplusone: And Farmer in the Sky?

DJedPar: Double Star?

AGplusone: Denis, btw, I need your e mail address …

SAcademy: Same old Martians,

AGplusone: if you would, of course.

AGplusone: thank you sir

DJedPar: Done. djedpar@aol.com

AGplusone: We’ll edit that out if you wish, from the log.

DJedPar: When it works. No it’s intentional.

AGplusone: Now if we could just get Cunningham …

SAcademy: Denis has some problems with AOL in Pigeon Mi

AGplusone: and if someone would tell me who Fred Moulton is …

SAcademy: I will try to do that.

DJedPar: Pigeon is Boonie Country.

SAcademy: He was an astrtonomer.

AGplusone: I finally found out what the toolies are

SAcademy: Astronomer.

AGplusone: Denis and Fred were the first two Heinlein Society dues checks we got

DJedPar: Astrotonomer is a good word.

SAcademy: If I could type it.

AGplusone: It’s a grass that grows in the swamps in the center of the California valley … hard to find now

AGplusone: except way up north.

DJedPar: It’s something they do in Hollywood.

AGplusone: That too … right around the corner from me

SAcademy: They found that grass?

AGplusone: That grass … yes, not the canabis

DJedPar: What grass?

SAcademy: Okay, Who planted the cannabis?

AGplusone: Huell Howser has a PBS program that shows in California. “California’s Gold” he calls it.

AGplusone: Travels all over the state. Went up to some swamps in a program last month and showed us all

AGplusone: what toolie grass looks like.

SAcademy: I hear that Wyoming is full of it.

AGplusone: in the “toolie swamps”

DJedPar: If you wear patchouli you will test positive for THC (cannabis)

AGplusone: That’s interesting to know …

SAcademy: You’re not going to do it?

DJedPar: Especially if you’re going for a new job.

AGplusone: Haven’t smelled patchouli in years.

AGplusone: Nice smell, btw.

DJedPar: I’m allergic to it.

SAcademy: Really? allergic?

AGplusone: Did you live/do you live out here, Denis?

AGplusone: I live in the former people’s republic of Santa Monica

DJedPar: Never been to California. Lived most everywhere else in NA though.

AGplusone: It’s a nice place to visit

AGplusone: but you have to remember to wear your aluminum pie plate over your head

DJedPar: They won’t let me out of the boonies,

DJedPar: AKA Michigan’s Thumb.

AGplusone: Ah, the Upper Pen …

AGplusone: I have relatives named Hanson living up there

DJedPar: Not the top, the Thumb.

AGplusone: and in Sou Ste Marie? (sp?)

DJedPar: Closer to Detroit and Windsor.

AGplusone: how do you spell that

AGplusone: Okay

DJedPar: Sault… means junp in french.

SAcademy: Sault Ste. Marie

DJedPar: Jump

AGplusone: Yes. I can’t spell it because I know how to say it.

AGplusone: Grandmother was born there.

DJedPar: They say soo here but it’s pronounced like so.

SAcademy: Denis speaks beautiful Canadian French.

AGplusone: that’s how she pronounced it

AGplusone: but all her kids said sue …

DJedPar: Thank you Ginny.

SAcademy: Welcome

DJedPar: Your grandmother was right.

AGplusone: Well, we’re at that time to say good-bye. Nice having you.

AGplusone: Do you know how to find the message board, Denis?

AGplusone: On AFH?

DJedPar: Thanks for the fun. And I’ll try to find it promptly next time.

SAcademy: Yes, I gave him a link.

AGplusone: type keyword “newsgroups” and look up alt.fan.heinlein if you lose it

DJedPar: Thank you. Merci.

maikoshT: Night everyone. Sorry I missed the discussion. Looking forward to reading the log. Anything need …

maikoshT: to be edited out

DenvToday: I must be going. Thanks to you all for a great discussion.

AGplusone: I’ll try to post a leadoff post in a day or two… da nada, as the Hispanic canadiens say

SAcademy: Nite, all.

DenvToday: Good night everybody!

AGplusone: Night, Ron

DenvToday: Night :-)

DJedPar: Bye.

SAcademy has left the room.

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: Ginny’s nice to attend these things, isn’t she?

AGplusone: DavidWrightSr and MaikoshT are one and the same

maikoshT: It’s fantastic. I love it when she drops those little items about Robert

AGplusone: I do too

AGplusone: I guess the consensus was that Jenny was Ginny, eh?

maikoshT: I had both going as my DW machine is flaky and goes ballistic. In fact, my screen there is all white

DJedPar: It’s very important to her. And us.

AGplusone: It is denis

AGplusone: And fun!

maikoshT: Anyhow, I have complete copies of the log. Anything I should get rid of?

AGplusone: Nothing that I saw

maikoshT: Ok. I’ll have it posted by late this evening, I hope.

DJedPar: No. Sawright.

AGplusone: a little disorganized but that was my fault …

AGplusone: we’ll have a good topic next time I think

AGplusone: Good night, David, from New York …

maikoshT: Good night Chet from Washington

AGplusone: And Good Night for NBC

maikoshT: BTW. that reminds me I found a URL for Kukla Fran and Ollie

AGplusone: Didja, where?

maikoshT: I’ll have to e-mail it as this dumb AIM won’t let me post long URLs

AGplusone: Yes, ‘improvements’ in a pig’s eye!

maikoshT: Just do a search on the three names and you’ll probably find it.

[Editor’s Note: The Unofficial KFO Page]

AGplusone: ‘kay, I’ll see you. Enjoy read of the evening.

AGplusone: rest

maikoshT: will do.

AGplusone has left the room.

maikoshT: Log officially closed at 8:01 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 06-07-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT The Future World of 2001

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 06-07-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

The Future World of 2001

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
In 1956, inspired by a comment from Virginia Heinlein, Robert Heinlein wrote a story about a man living in 1970 who takes the ‘cold sleep’ and arrives in late 2000 AD. In this chat I suggest that we look, not at the story itself but at the two eras and discuss the likelihood of the history and inventions that Heinlein described.

It’s always fascinating when we arrive in a year immortalised in fiction; 1984 and 2001 being two of the best examples. Generally we fail to match up ( thankfully in some cases) but it’s fun to compare.

Most of us can remember 1970 and we are living in the exact same time that Dan was; we had a recent post in April, congratulating Dan on arriving in the future for the second time. However few of the advances that Heinlein described are with us, even those that Dan had in 1970 and of course, he missed a few, notably disposable diapers :-)

I propose we list a few of them ( there are a LOT…..I went through the book last night and noted them down so I can say that Heinlein jammed this story full of throwaway references to futuristic gadgets but, in his usual skilful way he was so matter of fact about it that they slide in unnoticed). Then we can think about if we have them ( my tech knowledge is so non existent that I need help on this !), if we want them and if we’re likely to get them soon.

We can also look at what Heinlein failed to predict, not in a smug way as I defy anyone to predict the future world of 2050 and be 100% accurate but in order to speculate about why things took a turn off at an angle that he couldn’t foresee.

OK, here are some of the things Dan had in 1970, starting with the back history.

The Cold War had warmed up to actual conflict. Washington was nuked, near miss on Manhattan in what is called the Six Week War. The US was saved by the revival of stock piled troops in cold sleep, an advance that had been around for some decades. Denver is now the capital city ( near to where Heinlein lived at the time of course!). In 1968, a law was passed called “The Gold Reserve Act”.

When Dan is discussing the cold sleep, the insurance man uses the phone;

“I didn’t hear the rest of the conversation, for he switched on the
privacy guard.”

I can’t think of anything that can stop people in the room with you from hearing what you say on the phone today.

The Carlsbad Caverns are used as a giant repository of personal documents; presumably they learned their lesson about storing things above ground during the war.

He has automatic traffic control, though not on all roads.

He invents Hired Girl, Window Willie, Flexible Frank….all inventions that we don’t have, certainly not at the stage where you can buy them cheaply and repair easily.

BUT….they still have typewriters. Well, in 1970 so did we… He thinks about inventing something that will empty a dishwasher ( I want one!!) and dustbins that empty themselves.

He notes that his household machine didn’t have to answer phones as “A.T & T were already renting a gadget for that. There was no need for him to answer the door either, as most new houses were being equipped with door answers.”

If by this last he means intercoms, then yes, we have one on our door, though we don’t use it. Not sure when they were invented though.

Belle uses the zombie drug on him; this was invented during the Cold war to combat brainwashing. I hope this doesn’t exist and never will….

On to 2000/2001…

The most shocking change is that people wear cerise bell bottom trousers but we’ll pass on quickly….while noting that had Heinlein set this fashion in 1970 instead, he’d have been a bit more on target :-)

The main differences are some that Dan himself is responsible for, at least in the field of robots. All his ideas are there in living, breathing, er, well, they exist and are working fine. He himself mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also led to time travel in a serendipitous way.

Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just on the screen. Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I wonder?). pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that awkward folding and rustling.

Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins, dishes keep food hot, mirrors don’t fog up, teeth can be regenerated, smog has gone, the common cold is vanquished, phones have view screens…..Venus has a research colony, England is a province of Canada ( no mention of Wales, Scotland and N Ireland though) and France has a king.

So; does it sound attractive?

Jane
On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt

insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>So; does it sound attractive?

I love it!!!

Jon

No-one ever said any of us had to be right, just
that we’d thought…before we thought we were right.
— Jani

Jon Ogden wrote:

>On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt >insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:
>
>>So; does it sound attractive?
>
>I love it!!!
>

Any bit in particular? I forgot, shirts that don’t need laundering and “Beardgo”…..just what did they do with all the time they saved I wonder?

I am always taken by the way that Dan focuses on improving the lot of the housewife. I don’t know if this was more input from Ginny or Heinlein’s engineering background making him sensitive to the sheer time wasting, back breaking, mind numbing tedium of housework. He also sets out to help Pete but cats are more traditional; “For old Pete I’ve built a “cat bathroom” to use in bad weather – automatic, self replenishing, sanitary and odorless. However, Pete being a proper cat, prefers to go outdoors…”

I wonder if the huge industry that is kitty litter was around in any form in 1956? We do have some very luxurious and automated litter trays too, though not quite approaching this description.

Jane

…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep
trying.-RAH
ddavitt wrote in message
news:3B12B038.CA3F8DBB@netcom.ca…
>Jon Ogden wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt >> insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:
>>
>>>So; does it sound attractive?
>>
>> I love it!!!
>>
>
>Any bit in particular? I forgot, shirts that don’t need laundering
>and “Beardgo”…..just what did they do with all the time they saved
>I wonder?
>
>I am always taken by the way that Dan focuses on improving the lot
>of the housewife. I don’t know if this was more input from Ginny or
>Heinlein’s engineering background making him sensitive to the sheer
>time wasting, back breaking, mind numbing tedium of housework.
>He also sets out to help Pete but cats are more traditional;
>”For old Pete I’ve built a “cat bathroom” to use in bad weather –
>automatic, self replenishing, sanitary and odorless. However, Pete
>being a proper cat, prefers to go outdoors…”
>
>I wonder if the huge industry that is kitty litter was around in any
>form in 1956? We do have some very luxurious and automated litter
>trays too, though not quite approaching this description.
>
>Jane

Beardgo? Beard-GO?!

Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.

Charles Walker Jr

walkers wrote:

>Beardgo? Beard-GO?!
>
>Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.
>
> —

I’m sure there is a BeardGRO too….. Dan must just have been clean shaven.

I keep noticing more in my practically illegible notes. One is hypnostudy. This is referenced in Space Cadet too; Heinlein must have been taken with the idea though I don’t know if the sleep tapes some people use are quite the same so this may be one we still don’t have.

Jane

…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep
trying.-RAH
ddavitt wrote in message
news:3B138852.69D4604E@netcom.ca…
>walkers wrote:
>
>> Beardgo? Beard-GO?!
>>
>> Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.
>>
>> —
>
>I’m sure there is a BeardGRO too….. Dan must just have
been
>clean shaven.
>I keep noticing more in my practically illegible notes. One is hypnostudy.
>This is referenced in Space Cadet too; Heinlein must have been taken with
the
>idea though I don’t know if the sleep tapes some people use are quite the same
>so this may be one we still don’t have.
>
>Jane
>

Hmmm….my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with mission info, but to allay fears.< Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and *I* do, it’s mentioned in SIASL too. I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful. — Charles Walker Jr walkers wrote: >Hmmm….my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already
>showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter
>Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with
>mission info, but to allay fears.
>
>Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and
>*I* do, it’s mentioned in SIASL too.
>
>I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working
>knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful.
>

I don’t know; it seems to go against TANSTAAFL somehow. No pain, no gain and all that. It’s also dodgy as mistakes could be made, indoctrination could be slipped in amongst the vocabulary…I’ll stick to the old ways. Though I wouldn’t mind learning renshawing. I’m a speed reader but I can miss stuff, especially when I’m tired. Improving my accuracy would be worth a little effort. The hypno method would be odd too; you wouldn’t know what you knew (if you know what I mean).

In SIASL don’t they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people talking about studying grimly so her husband didn’t get ahead of her and leave her. Maybe it’s one of those catches where AFTER you’ve reached a certain level you are capable of learning by mind transference.

Jane

ddavitt wrote in message
news:3B1454CA.D3BDB586@netcom.ca…
>In SIASL don’t they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people
>talking about studying grimly so her husband didn’t get ahead of her and leave
>her. Maybe it’s one of those catches where AFTER you’ve reached a certain level
>you are capable of learning by mind transference.
>
>Jane
>

It is *exactly* that AFAIK. you have to learn how to think in martian before you can have knowledge dumped into you.

Indoctrination is certainly a posibility. I believe it’s even mentioned that it happens in ST. While I would like to pick up a few subjects, it would have to be someone I *trust*.

Actually there’s your cost right there, the risk of being indoctrinated. The one thing I can say about that though, is that in most cases a person cannot be hypnotized to do anything against their will. (That’s why often times stop-smoking hypnosis doesn’t work.)

Note, I said *most* cases. Mesmer and a few others claimed to be capable of it.

Charles Walker Jr

…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep
trying.-RAH

ddavitt wrote:
>
>walkers wrote:
>
>> Hmmm….my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already
>> showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter
>> Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with
>> mission info, but to allay fears.
>>
>> Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and
>> *I* do, it’s mentioned in SIASL too.
>>
>> I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working
>> knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful.
>>
>
>I don’t know; it seems to go against TANSTAAFL somehow. No pain, no gain and all
>that. It’s also dodgy as mistakes could be made, indoctrination could be slipped
>in amongst the vocabulary…I’ll stick to the old ways. Though I wouldn’t mind
>learning renshawing. I’m a speed reader but I can miss stuff, especially when
>I’m tired. Improving my accuracy would be worth a little effort.

I think you’ve pointed out the fact that TANSTAAFL is not violated. I think in some of the descriptions, and I’d have to go back to find out where, there was sometimes a headached involved. Second, you do run the risk of indoctrination or adverse suggestions being integrated into what you are learning – If This Goes On –

>The hypno method would be odd too; you wouldn’t know what you knew (if you know
>what I mean).

This was pointed out in Space Cadet, when Matt didn’t know he knew Venusian, until it was triggered by someone else speaking Venusian. This implies that there is an effort that must be made to activate the knowledge that was acquired. Also, I wonder if this knowledge goes into permanent storage directly, or if it has to make its way there through a repetition mechanism. Interesting to consider.

>In SIASL don’t they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people
>talking about studying grimly so her husband didn’t get ahead of her and leave
>her. Maybe it’s one of those catches where AFTER you’ve reached a certain level
>you are capable of learning by mind transference.

Yes, you are referring to Saul’s wife and her concern that her husband was “leaving her” for another person. If only she knew … Also notice that when they received their learning, there was still a broad variance in the ability to use the language, at least as far as we saw in the novel. For instance, some had very poor accents, etc.

Randy

Randy J. Jost, Ph.D., PE

Asst. Professor

Dept of Elec. & Comp. Engr.

Utah State University

(435) 797-0789 (Phone)

(435) 797-3054 (Fax)

rjost@ece.usu.edu

“Randy J. Jost” wrote:
>
>Yes, you are referring to Saul’s wife and her concern that her husband
>was “leaving her” for another person. If only she knew … Also
>notice that when they received their learning, there was still a broad
>variance in the ability to use the language, at least as far as we saw
>in the novel. For instance, some had very poor accents, etc.
>
>Randy
>

I wonder if that would mean they were less likely to become powerful? If learning Martian is necessary to master the mental powers and you can’t do it to an acceptable standard then, what? Someone disappears only half way? It’s always struck me as a strange requirement. Why should a skill that humans can acquire only be accessible through an alien language?

Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton’s book on Stranger, _The Martian Named Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford’s Nitrosyncretic Press) has some answers…..

Jane

“ddavitt” wrote in message
news:3B15154D.A2FE0B24@netcom.ca…
>I wonder if that would mean they were less likely to become powerful? If learning
>Martian is necessary to master the mental powers and you can’t do it to an acceptable
>standard then, what? Someone disappears only half way? It’s always struck me as a
>strange requirement. Why should a skill that humans can acquire only be accessible
>through an alien language?
>
>Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton’s book on Stranger, _The Martian Named
>Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford’s Nitrosyncretic Press) has some answers…..

I wonder if I should thwap you for spamming?

As for the actual meat of the post… 😉 No, it did not affect their ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) The idea of the accents comes near the end, and the only effect of having an accent rather than throat gargly pure Martian, was that Mike could not use you for dumping bulk loads of words for the dictionary. It is mentioned that one of them (Duke?) speaks Martian with a Bronx accent.

IIRC the only half disappearing is caused by having a thick English accent. Of course, it is not the accent itself, but the inability to think regardless of language. (See the uncut version.) Had something to do with being raised in a Monarchy I think…

NW

(Who muct now work for a few weeks to get rid of this Florida / Alabama accent he has reacquired.)

Nuclear Waste wrote in message
news:3b179717@news.2z.net…

>IIRC the only half disappearing is caused by having a thick English accent.
>Of course, it is not the accent itself, but the inability to think
>regardless of language. (See the uncut version.) Had something to do with
>being raised in a Monarchy I think…
>
>NW

Some things never change. *thwaps Jim with rolled-up British flag*. I think the Martian language thing is something to do with Ouspensky – ask BillP, he knows that sort of stuff…

Jani

“ddavitt” wrote in message
news:3B12741E.15338297@netcom.ca…

(snip)

>
> On to 2000/2001…
>

I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this evening, I’ll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it, hint).

David Wright
Nuclear Waste wrote:

>”ddavitt” wrote
>>
>> Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton’s book on Stranger, _The
>Martian Named
>> Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford’s Nitrosyncretic Press) has some
>answers…..
>
>I wonder if I should thwap you for spamming?

I know you’re joking…three of our own write and publish a book about Stranger…we should know about this. My order is in and I’m looking forward to adding it to my shelves.

>
>
>As for the actual meat of the post… 😉 No, it did not affect their
>ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of
>the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) snip NW
>
>

I will ignore these slurs ( which, considering the huge variety in UK accents are pretty hard to take seriously anyway :-)). I think your explanation is a good one though; I hadn’t quite tied it together with the comments Jubal made about reading the Koran in Arabic before.

That makes some sense…but I still wonder if there’s a way to point X on the map that doesn’t require Martian….or were we never meant to have those powers and we’re taking an illegal short cut?

Who wanted Mike to teach us Martian mental discipline? God? Why? To ensure that we only got the skills once we had advanced far enough to have interplanetary travel? Doesn’t seem too likely in view of the parlous state of Earth in the book. As a way of saving at least some people from the degeneracy? Perhaps.

Jane
David Wright wrote:

>”
>I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons
>between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in
>Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this
>evening, I’ll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it,
>(hint).
>
> David Wright

Wouldn’t dream of spoiling your fun…Thinking about it, it’s interesting that once again, Heinlein bases his future in the home…we get mentions of old people living on the moon for their health and such but basically he shows us a lot of improvements for the housewife ( and it is still a woman at home doing the work…). I think that focusing on an area that we are all familiar with adds to the interest. Heinlein also put his ideas into practise when he and Mrs Heinlein designed and built their own houses.

One theme common to Heinlein that doesn’t seem close to coming true yet is that of a lack of food leading to us eating yeast substitutes masquerading as real food. This world food shortage is in Door and the EU predictions. I wonder if it is waiting around the corner or if we will continue to avoid it in the developed nations?

I would like to see a prediction that advances in agriculture decrease world hunger as we make more efficient use of land that, at present is infertile but that probably won’t happen. If we did find a way to make the desert, ‘bloom like the rose’, it’d probably just turn out that it really belonged to whichever country had invented the advance rather than the formerly famine ridden nation and the next thing you know, there’d be a war or something. :-(

Jane
Jane wrote:

>He himself
>mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of
>clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also
>led to time travel in a serendipitous way.

Well… In the Sticktite category we have velcro and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way swimsuits fit. Good call there!

Nullgrav, on the other hand…..

>Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve
>some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just
>on the screen.

Nude beaches do exist, but they aren’t “common”, at least as far as I can tell… IMAX theaters and Dolby sound sort of hit the mark there, although only the Rocky Horror Picture Show really has the “extrodinary special effects”, (flying toast? rain storms? etc…) as far as I can tell.

>Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D
>ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I
>wonder?).

Color in the newspaper is common now, although 3 D is rare…

>pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that
>awkward folding and rustling.

Reading online does work that way, at least sort of…

>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,

Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?

Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.

My question is, how many of the hits were caused by people reading Heinlein and saying “good idea, I’m going to make that one happen?”

Tian Harter

http://user.aol.com/tnharter

nothing
Tian Harter wrote in message news:20010601172130.19429.00000152@ng-fk1.aol.com…

>Jane wrote:
>
>>He himself
>>mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of
>>clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also
>>led to time travel in a serendipitous way.
>
>Well… In the Sticktite category we have velcro
>and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way
>swimsuits fit. Good call there!
>
>Nullgrav, on the other hand…..
>
>>Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve
>>some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just
>>on the screen.
>
>Nude beaches do exist, but they aren’t “common”, at
>least as far as I can tell… IMAX theaters and Dolby
>sound sort of hit the mark there, although only
>the Rocky Horror Picture Show really has the
>”extrodinary special effects”, (flying toast? rain
>storms? etc…) as far as I can tell.
>
>>Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D
>>ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I
>>wonder?).
>
>Color in the newspaper is common now, although
>3 D is rare…
>
>>pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that
>>awkward folding and rustling.
>
>Reading online does work that way, at least sort of…
>
>>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,
>
>Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper
>money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?
>
>Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.
>
>My question is, how many of the hits were caused by
>people reading Heinlein and saying “good idea, I’m
>going to make that one happen?”

I am amazed by how much of what we saw in Star Trek (original series, of course) is being 30 years after the series premiered, not 300 years. NASA is even investigating the possibility of faster than light travel (according to an article I read in Popular Science)

Remember how Eunice (IWFNE) wore clothes that were painted on? Models do this all the time in magazines, although I don’t imagine many secretaries show up at work that way.
Tian Harter wrote:

>
> Well… In the Sticktite category we have velcro
> and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way
> swimsuits fit. Good call there!

Yes; I remember when leggings came out in the 1980’s. The first time I wore them I felt as Friday must have done in superskin :-) After jeans they were a lot more revealing and a darn sight comfier.

( Mental picture of me lying flat on the bed using a pair of pliers to do up the zip on my skin tight jeans…and being unable to repeat this in the pub loo a few hours later when space was at a premium and I had no pliers…and we laugh at the Victorian women in corsets)

>>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,
>
>Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper
>money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?

Don’t know the details; it’s just mentioned in passing.

>
>
>Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.
>
>My question is, how many of the hits were caused by
>people reading Heinlein and saying “good idea, I’m
>going to make that one happen?”

I’d like to think that was the case but probably not.

Jane
ddavitt wrote:

>Tian Harter wrote:
>
>> >Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>> >panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,
>>
>> Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper
>> money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?
>
>Don’t know the details; it’s just mentioned in passing.

It’s mentioned in the usual Heinlein tradition, similar to the “Mistake of 1972″ referred to in “-All You Zombies-“. As far as plastic money goes, any visitor to Australia recently will tell you that our monetary notes are actually made of plastic (apparently they last longer and are more difficult/impossible to counterfeit).

Sean

***********

Must sell at tallest sum.
Jane wrote:

> One theme common to Heinlein that doesn’t seem close to coming true yet is
> that of a lack of food leading to us eating yeast substitutes masquerading as
> real food. This world food shortage is in Door and the EU predictions. I
> wonder if it is waiting around the corner or if we will continue to avoid it
> in the developed nations?
> I would like to see a prediction that advances in agriculture decrease world
> hunger as we make more efficient use of land that, at present is infertile
> but that probably won’t happen. If we did find a way to make the desert,
>’bloom like the rose’, it’d probably just turn out that it really belonged to
>whichever country had invented the advance rather than the formerly famine
>ridden nation and the next thing you know, there’d be a war or something.
:-(

The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation, nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There is plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic) are hungry.

William Dennis II

dwilliam16@homeSPAMBLOCK.com

http://dennis2.freewebsites.com
William Dennis wrote:

>
>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation,
>nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. snip

I agree that it’s not simple…too many factors, economic, religious, political, physical…but I can’t help feeling that there is a solution. I wonder if what will crack it will be something off at a tangent from all those? Maybe vastly improved global logistics that allow a surplus in one place to be easily, cheaply and quickly diverted to a famine area….at a nice tax cut for the donor as an incentive.

Doesn’t make sense for half the world to be dieting and half starving… Perhaps it’s the mommy mentality but I feel like saying sternly, “share nicely!”

Jane
ddavitt

wrote in message

news:3B180F35.CEF250CE@netcom.ca…

>William Dennis wrote:
>
>>
>>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to
overpopulation,
>> nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. snip
>
>I agree that it’s not simple…too many factors, economic, religious, political,
>physical…but I can’t help feeling that there is a solution. I wonder if what
>will crack it will be something off at a tangent from all those? Maybe vastly
>improved global logistics that allow a surplus in one place to be easily,
>cheaply and quickly diverted to a famine area….at a nice tax cut for the donor
>as an incentive.
>
> Doesn’t make sense for half the world to be dieting and half starving…Perhaps
>it’s the mommy mentality but I feel like saying sternly, “share nicely!”
>

I believe in sharing too. As long as it is voluntary and not through taxation or wealth distribution schemes.

William Dennis II

dwilliam16@homeSPAMBLOCK.com

http://dennis2.freewebsites.com
On 2001.06.01 21:29:40,

the amazingdeclared:

>
>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation,
>nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There is
>plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy
>the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with
>almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are
>aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic)
>are hungry.
>

I don’t quarrel with the basic point, but… agriculture? How many rich populous countries are aggressively free-market about agriculture?

(In a free market supply and demand fall into equilibrium; no butter mountains, wine lakes, programs to run cars with corn likker).

Nollaig MacKenzie

http://www.amhuinnsuidhe.cx/rahfan/

Setiathome: “You have completed more work units than 96.082% of our users.”
Nollaig MacKenzie wrote in message

news:slrn9hgf93.69c.rahfan@amhuinnsuidhe.cx…

>
>On 2001.06.01 21:29:40,
>the amazing declared:
>
>
>
>>
>> The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to verpopulation,
>> nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There
>>plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy
>>the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with
>>almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are
>>aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic)
>>are hungry.
>>
>
>I don’t quarrel with the basic point, but… agriculture?
>How many rich populous countries are aggressively free-market
>about agriculture?
>
>(In a free market supply and demand fall into equilibrium;
>no butter mountains, wine lakes, programs to run cars with
>corn likker).

There is certainly a lot of interference in the free market in agriculture in this country. Butter supports. Peanut supports. Tobacco supports. Sugar supports. Ethanol supports. Honey, even. All of it is supposed to help the “family farmer.” but most ends up in the hands of corporations.

Still the actually buying and selling takes place on the open market, which keeps prices low.

Frankly, I would do away with all the “help” and let the family farmer sink or swim on his own.

William Dennis II

dwilliam16@homeSPAMBLOCK.com

http://dennis2.freewebsites.com

>Some things never change. *thwaps Jim with rolled-up British flag*. I think
>the Martian language thing is something to do with Ouspensky – ask BillP, he
>knows that sort of stuff…
>
>Jani

I plead punchdrunkeness. Having gone through 500+ posts in a night in an effort to catch up will do that to you.

Jim
“ddavitt”

wrote in message news:3B17E17F.43C23999@netcom.ca…

>I know you’re joking…three of our own write and publish a book about
>Stranger…we should know about this. My order is in and I’m looking forward to
>adding it to my shelves.

Jane, I thought it was obvious that I was applying for the shepard position in the first and last part of my post. 😉 I have a nice yard ready for you and Jani’s goats.

>> As for the actual meat of the post… 😉 No, it did not affect their
>> ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of
>> the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) snip NW

> I will ignore these slurs ( which, considering the huge variety in UK accents
> are pretty hard to take seriously anyway :-)). I think your explanation is a
> good one though; I hadn’t quite tied it together with the comments Jubal made
> about reading the Koran in Arabic before.

I can’t take credit for it, I got it from the book.

>That makes some sense…but I still wonder if there’s a way to point X on the
>map that doesn’t require Martian….or were we never meant to have those powers
>and we’re taking an illegal short cut?

I don’t know if it was an illegal shortcut so much as Prometheus delivering fire. I think we would have gotten there eventually. Jubal groks without speaking Martian, Hindus manage similar control of their bodies, Allie groks in a limited fashion using astrology etc. The pieces were there, we just had not developed them.

>Who wanted Mike to teach us Martian mental discipline? God? Why?

My reading of the book makes the whole thing look like preordained free will. (Mrs. Douglas on assignment, Mike etc.) As to God doing it, of course he did, all that groks is God. Why? I would not presume to answer for you Jane. Thou Art God.

Jim
Nuclear Waste wrote:

>”ddavitt” wrote in message
>news:3B17E17F.43C23999@netcom.ca…
>>I know you’re joking…three of our own write and publish a book about
>>Stranger…we should know about this. My order is in and I’m looking
>forward to
>>adding it to my shelves.
>
>Jane, I thought it was obvious that I was applying for the shepard position
>in the first and last part of my post. 😉 I have a nice yard ready for you
>and Jani’s goats.
>

Of course it was Jim, that’s why I started with “I know you’re joking”. After over three years I can tell when you’re trying to wind me up. Most of the time :-)

Jane
William Dennis II wrote:

>Frankly, I would do away with all the “help” and
>let the family farmer sink or swim on his own.

I find the farmers market to be a much better source of cutting edge marketplace technology than any supermarket I ever heard of.

Agribusiness simply can’t compete with a woman selling Pink Ladys by the pound.

Tian Harter

http://user.aol.com/tnharter

nothing
“David Wright” wrote in message news:9f8l5u$314e2$1@ID-53646.news.dfncis.de…

>
>”ddavitt” wrote in message
>news:3B12741E.15338297@netcom.ca…
>
>(snip)
>
>>
>> On to 2000/2001…
>>
>I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons
>between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in
>Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this
>evening, I’ll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it,
>hint).
>
>David Wright
>

Ok. So no one took the bait, I guess that I’ll have to make a stab at it. I include where I can remember similar references in RAH’s works. Rererences are off the top of my head and are not meant to be exclusive.

1) Changed definition of suburbia. 200 miles around city made possible by flying automated pilot cabs. (Beyond This Horizon)

2) Houses build as domes. RAH’s character said that they reminded her of domes in Wizard of Oz. Made me think of R. Buckminster Fuller’s geodesic domes. (Red Planet)

3) Social change. Casual nudity is normal in homes. Only people put off, (slightly), are us old fogies. (a number of RAH’s books showed this one)

3) Social change. Families have ‘family psychiatrist’, although apparently not taken too seriously since homeowner decides to disobey in deference to ‘old fogy’, who, however, recognizes social significance of being classed as ‘an outsider, not a member of family’. (Time Enough For Love)

4) Complete dust precipitation from outside and a ‘whirlwind’ to collect dust from inside house along with ultraviolet sterilization, disposable surface materials keeps house ‘clean’. ‘Only barbarians wear shoes in house’.

5) Social change. Even ‘old fogy’ accepts nudity in sun-bathing setting.

6) Modern science has allowed even ‘old fogies’ to remain young looking if they so desire, ‘and most of them so wish’. (Methusaleh’s Children)

7) Complete weather-controlled patio and swimming pool area which “appears to be outdoors, but is not;it is covered by a bubble of transparent plastic, blown and cured on the spot.”

8) Automated kitched ‘stove’ which keeps track of inventory, produces meals on a random basis which can be selected or rejected by the ‘cook’. It then ‘cook’ or warms them. Apparently lots of pseudo food, ‘lamb chops based on fish’, etc. Food not as plentiful as in 1900. ‘Too many people, not enough acres’. Dishes burned not cleaned. (Farmer in the Sky).

9) Television which records and categorizes programs, especially news ones, which can be looked at later. (Methusaleh’s Children).

10) Recording Phones, with automatic call forwarding. (Farmer in the Sky)

11) Old folks home on the moon.

That’s 3-4 pages. More to come when, and if, I have the time.

David Wright
“David Wright” wrote in message news:9fdgas$3gcnl$1@ID-53646.news.dfncis.de…

(snip)

>
>That’s 3-4 pages. More to come when, and if, I have the time.
>
>David Wright
>
>

P.S. And all of this is from the ‘fictional scenario’ leadin. All of the ‘real’ predictions come later on.

David Wright
I think the biggest failure to achieve what Heinlein predicted has to be in the field of space travel. I’m sure he would have put money on a lunar colony in 2001 if someone offered him odds back in 1950.

Even the depressing world of IWFNE has that escape route; Joan Eunice’s child will grow up looking at earth from a distance, part of a young and vital community rather than a decadent and violent one.

Jane

ddavitt wrote in message
news:3B1C2113.4E68415F@netcom.ca…
>
> I think the biggest failure to achieve what Heinlein predicted has to be in the
> field of space travel. I’m sure he would have put money on a lunar colony in
> 2001 if someone offered him odds back in 1950.
> Even the depressing world of IWFNE has that escape route; Joan Eunice’s child
>will grow up looking at earth from a distance, part of a young and vital
>community rather than a decadent and violent one.
>
>Jane
>

Looking at it, I don’t think he realized the hatred that would evolve for discovery. He was obviously an optimist where the race was concerned, and the politicians will void out discovery for votes every time.

Charles Walker Jr

…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep trying.-RAH
Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

fgherman has entered the room.

fgherman: Look a little quiet so far.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Felicia. Only us mice here so far

fgherman: squeak,squeak

fgherman: I don’t think this crowd is watching the MTV Movie Awards

DavidWrightSr: I doubt it.

fgherman: Is there a topic for this evening?

DavidWrightSr: Yes. Hang on a min.

DavidWrightSr: Yes, the ‘World of The Future 2001′. Taken mostly from RAH’s Door into Summer

DavidWrightSr: I hate these short message we are limited to now.

fgherman: or “Where’s my flying car

DavidWrightSr: I had to do that one completely over. Right, You’ll have to wait in line after me for one. :-)

fgherman: I wasn’t aware they had changed things on us.

DavidWrightSr: the line length went from about 450 chars to a little over a hundred.

fgherman: boo

DavidWrightSr: The older version of AIM stops you when you reach the limit, but the new one doesn’t

DavidWrightSr: and if you go over, you have to do it over.

fgherman: oh, an “improvement”

RMLWJ1 has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello

DavidWrightSr: Hi there. Welcome. Nobody here yet, but us mices

fgherman: squeak,squeak

DavidWrightSr: People usually start showing up about now.

DavidWrightSr: fgherman is Felicia , I am David. What is your name?

Sacademy has entered the room.

RMLWJ1: I’m Leon

fgherman: Good evening Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ginny.

Sacademy: Good evening all.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Leon. We now have Leon, Felicia, Ginny and David Present. I expect the others will be shortly

DavidWrightSr: Leon was my brother’s name.

RMLWJ1: Any topic tonight in particular?

DavidWrightSr: Yes, the ‘World of The Future 2001′. Taken mostly from RAH’s Door into Summer

DavidWrightSr: and ‘Expanded Universe’ I hope

Sacademy: I am expecting two guests this evening. Sandy and Denis (pronounced French fashion, Donny)

DavidWrightSr: Great. Is that their screen names?

Sacademy: No. Denis is DJedPar and Sandy is

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will

Sacademy: Sandysandfort.

geeairmoe2: Hi, David, all.

fgherman: HelloWill

Sacademy: Good evening Will.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. I’ve added them to my ‘buddy list’ and will keep an eye out for them.

DavidWrightSr: Wonder where our leaders are?

Sacademy: My guests haven’t turned up yet.

Sacademy: Thank you David.

RMLWJ1: I trust all are well?

Sacademy: We were having a thunderstorm and I wasn’t sure I could get here, so I sent an email to AGplysone.

Sacademy: AGplusone.

DavidWrightSr: We can just chat for a bit and hope Jane or David Silver or someone shows up to get us started

fgherman: You do need the rain down there.

DavidWrightSr: We have had rain, rain, rain. Almost caught us up. They had to close down LSU where my son is because

DavidWrightSr: of flooding.

Sacademy: We certainly do. It’s been very dry.

fgherman: I’d be happy to send you some of our excess

DavidWrightSr: Yippe.. I see Jane signing on

geeairmoe2: Allison missed us in Central Texas.

Sacademy: I wish you could Felicia.

geeairmoe2: We expect rain … oh, about September.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt has left the room.

RMLWJ1: We’ve had the odd spot of it here in Roanoke, but by and large it’s been a dry spring.

ddavitt has entered the room.

fgherman: Was it something we said.

DavidWrightSr: Slava Bogu. our leader is here.

ddavitt: Sorry; two windows opened at once

Sacademy: Good evening, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.

fgherman: EVening Jane

geeairmoe2: Hello, Jane.

ddavitt: David refused to move away from the computer. i had to get testy with him:-)

ddavitt: Checking UK election results

ddavitt: Hi everyone.

fgherman: Tony Blair is still winning, right?

Sacademy: Blair won. I could have told him

ddavitt: Yes, foregone conclusion…very low turnout tho

RMLWJ1: brb. Coffee.

ddavitt: Dave; while I remember, have you managed to contact Robert Crais?

Sacademy: I need some more lemonade.

Sacademy: brb

ddavitt: Looks as if Connie may not be able to be GofH for a while so we could ask Robert to be the next one?

geeairmoe2: Robert is . . . ?

Sacademy: Robert who?

ddavitt: Robert crais is a mystery writer

ddavitt: He always has a Heinlein reference in his books

DavidWrightSr: No, I haven’t. I will if we need to look around for another GOH. When would you suggest?

Sacademy: Nice of him.

DavidWrightSr: He’s the one who put the pictures on the Colorado house wasn’t he?

ddavitt: Yes

geeairmoe2: Does he have a web site?

ddavitt: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll have to search for his address.

ddavitt: I have it bookmarked. hang on

Sacademy: I have addys for SFWA only

DavidWrightSr: When do we want him for?

ddavitt: http://www.robertcrais.com/

ddavitt: http://www.robertcrais.com/

ddavitt: Anytime really

geeairmoe2: Thanks, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. I’ll check it out. Again. What date should we shoot for?

ddavitt: We have no topic for next time

ddavitt: But that may be too soon

DavidWrightSr: That’s a little close.

ddavitt: We are blank for July 5/7 as there is a con

ddavitt: July19/21 is racism

ddavitt: August sometime is critical perspectives

ddavitt: That’s it

ddavitt: racism can get switched if need be

DavidWrightSr: I’ll try for 5/7 and see what he says, That’s not a particularly good time as a lot of people…

Sacademy: I just went back,. Bill is online now.

DavidWrightSr: plan events around the 4th.

ddavitt: we can skip that chat then if you like or just have a come and natter about anything night

DavidWrightSr: He’s still on AOL, hasn’t logged into AIM yet.

ddavitt: basically, if we can get him, just see what suits him.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I’ll go ahead and try. See what he says.

ddavitt: He’s a Buffy fan too :-)

fgherman: Buffy rules

ddavitt: A man of taste…

Sacademy: Who is that Buffy that you’re tlaking about?

ddavitt: Oh yes…did you see that last episode; shock horror

ddavitt: Buffy the vampire Slayer SA

DavidWrightSr: Series on TV, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Never watched it myself

fgherman: Buffy the Vampire Slayer – a tv show

ddavitt: Very good show; hidden depths

Sacademy: Thanks

ddavitt: OK, shall we kick off then?

RMLWJ1: Buffy and the Vampire Slayers is now a TV show, ma’am.

geeairmoe2: One of my brother’s is a fan. Love Willow. he has a fondness for redheads.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah Right. With a name like Buffy O:-)

ddavitt: It’s an excellent show

ddavitt: Don’t go by the film; that was dire

DavidWrightSr: I’m just kidding. Never had a chance to see it.

RMLWJ1: Jim Baen is a Buffy fan.

ddavitt: Catch some of the summer reruns; you may like it

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

Sacademy: Ray for Jim!

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Bill.

ddavitt: Lots of overlap between heinlein/Buffy fans.

Sacademy: Hello Bill

Heinleinsmof: Howdy

fgherman: We all have taste

ddavitt: many on sff buffy group are big in heinlein fanworld too

fgherman: HI Bill

ddavitt: Hi Bill

DavidWrightSr: Maybe we could discuss that topic sometime. See what the connection might be.

ddavitt: We are just about to start, getting some topics lined up

Sacademy: Did you all choose those colors for your screen names? I can’t read half of them

Heinleinsmof: Buffy?

ddavitt: No SA it’s AIM doing it to us automatically

Heinleinsmof: Everyone’s but mine is in blue on my screen

fgherman: same here

ddavitt: They are horrible colours aren’t they?

geeairmoe2: All my names are blue.

ddavitt: I have green, purple orange…real rainbow

DavidWrightSr: All I see is blue for names, black for text and Red for my own name

ddavitt: Will, you are yellow

Sacademy: I bet you all don’t have the most recent AIM

ddavitt: Orange for dave

geeairmoe2: I fear nothing!

ddavitt: That may be it; i upgraded

ddavitt: :-)Will I know that.

Sacademy: Me, too. What color do I have?

Sacademy: It’s red here.

ddavitt: You are dark greenSA

RMLWJ1: You’re green on my screen, ma’am.

Sacademy: At least that is visible.

ddavitt: I am red

ddavitt: To me anyway

Sacademy: You aren’t color blind, are you?

fgherman: remind not to upgrade if that’s what happens

DavidWrightSr: Everyone’s own name should be in red. I don’t know what controls the other colors

RMLWJ1: The colours are random, assigned as folks come onto the chat room.

ddavitt: Yes, good topic; if you like Heinlein then you’ll like…X

ddavitt: No deep significance then…

fgherman: lol

ddavitt: So; ready to chat?

ddavitt: offically that is?:-)

Sacademy: Have you seen my guests, David?

DavidWrightSr: Djedpar is here. Hang on. I’ll invite him in

Sacademy: Thank you.

DavidWrightSr: Done. No response yet.

DjedPar has entered the room.

Sacademy: Good evening, Denis.

DavidWrightSr: Vot On.

DavidWrightSr: I mean There he is

ddavitt: Who sent me the screen picture of the cat? Lovely picture…

DjedPar: Good Evening

ddavitt: Welcome Denis

DavidWrightSr: Welcomd Denis

fgherman: Welcome Denis

DjedPar: Thank you

Sacademy: Denis was the first member of THS

fgherman: wow

ddavitt: ditto

DavidWrightSr: Congratulations. One of these days, I am going to try to afford joining.

DavidWrightSr: But I just spent my father’s day gift on Bill’s new book.

Sacademy: Have you read it yet?

ddavitt: I have my order in too

DavidWrightSr: Not supposed to be delivered until the 18th I believe

Sacademy: What is Bill doing, reading his email?

DavidWrightSr: Being modest, I presume

ddavitt: I have read it online but it makes my head ache

DjedPar: 😉

ddavitt: Not the book; that method

DavidWrightSr: It’s online. Where?

Sacademy: No one lkes to read books online as far as I can tell.

ddavitt: No; Bill sent it to me

ddavitt: To critique for the Journal

DavidWrightSr: Ok then, I’ll try not to pout too much.

Heinleinsmof: Hi — I was courting a headache by looking in at AFH

Sacademy: Do you have to get it in for the July issue, Jane?

ddavitt: I promised I would still buy it

ddavitt: Hope not!

DavidWrightSr: I’m really anxious to get Phil Owenby’s book.

Heinleinsmof: Well, yes, the July issue was what I had in mind.

ddavitt: Oh dear..you didn’t say that.

Heinleinsmof: Hey — I told you you would get a comp copy for review.

ddavitt: OK, I will do my best.

ddavitt: I’ve read it but online is hard to flip back abd forth

Heinleinsmof: I can hold the deadline if it is necessary

ddavitt: I can’t take it in as well as a book

ddavitt: No; i will do it. I promised

Heinleinsmof: It is hard to read it in Acrobat format, isn’t it? The Acrobat navigation isn’t very convenient, eit

Heinleinsmof: her

ddavitt: I just started to look at a new project with Tim Morgan

fgherman: brb

ddavitt: Researching the dedication names

ddavitt: He mentioned he began it; sounds like fun

Heinleinsmof: I hadn’t heard from him in awhile, so I wondered how it was going

ddavitt: He said it had stalled a bit

ddavitt: But I think we could all pitch in and do it.

ddavitt: L’Envoi is done so we need a new challenge:-)

Heinleinsmof: Did he get all the 30 or so dedications to Friday?

ddavitt: I don’t think so; he emailed me what he had

ddavitt: I haven’t had chance to look at it in detail; this only came up this afternoon

Sacademy: Someone got all but two, and sent a copy to them all for signatures.

ddavitt: But I think he has just the easy ones like Doc Smith

Heinleinsmof: When the book came out I recognized about 80% of the names — a lot of them are sf writers.

ddavitt: That was enterprising!

Heinleinsmof: It’s a historical document.

ddavitt: i started today by doing the books chronologically as I thought that might be useful

ddavitt: L’Envoi list may have some answers too if we compare them.

ddavitt: Some of the books don’t have dedications in my editions

Sacademy: I helped Francesco with that envoi list.

ddavitt: You nailed it down Ginny

ddavitt: It’s now 100% done after a very long time

Sacademy: Yes. But then I was on the inside on that.

ddavitt: You had an advantage:-)

DjedPar: Ginny has more energy than all of us.

Sacademy: Well, Yes. Was that unfair?

ddavitt: If we try and track down all the dedications and get totally stuck may we ask you for help on that?

ddavitt: I promise we’ll try on our own as much as possible

Sacademy: Of course.

ddavitt: Thanks! That is the sort of thing I enjoy; like a cryptic crossword.

Sacademy: They were all the children of close friends for the juvies.

Sacademy: Well, most of them

ddavitt: I wondered if Diane and Clark were the neighbours who Poddy and Clark were based on?

ddavitt: I remember you said Clark was real

Sacademy: Yes. Last name Russell. Jim R. owned the local TV station.

ddavitt: Star Beast was dedicated to them

ddavitt: Cool! Got one!

Sacademy: Any others?

ddavitt: Too many to list..

Sacademy: Then send me an email about it.

ddavitt: I’ll work on it and see what gaps are left

ddavitt: Will do.

Sacademy: Okay

ddavitt: I suppose we should start the chat…

geeairmoe2: Chat subject is … ?

ddavitt: We are looking at the world dan Davis slept his way to; 2000/1

ddavitt: What did Heinlein imagine it was like back in 1955 and where did we fail to measure up

DavidWrightSr: As Felicia said earlier to me. Where’s my flying car?

ddavitt: What did Heinlein miss and why/ What made us go off at a tangent?

DavidWrightSr: and that was for 1970, not 2000

ddavitt: Quite…that was a staple of SF that hasn’t really come

RMLWJ1: Well, gold is still a commdity, not an engineering metal.

RMLWJ1: commodity

ddavitt: Yes; 1970 in the book had lots that we still don’t have. we are way behind

ddavitt: Is there any sign of that changing?

DjedPar: No

ddavitt: I don’t understand economics that well.

DavidWrightSr: I expect that we will have robots along his lines in the not too distant future. They are making…

DavidWrightSr: a lot of progress

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think anyone imagined the political barriers that have been placed in the way of technical

Heinleinsmof: development

ddavitt: Paper money needs gold behind it to make it worth something?

ddavitt: Who checks to make sure the gold’s all there?

Heinleinsmof: Or the strange twists the economy has taken when it changed over to more government than private

Heinleinsmof: sectoriun about 1967

ddavitt: We could have the robots but do we want them? We seem very conservative about some things

DavidWrightSr: Well, actually, gold is used a lot on high quality circuit boards.

Heinleinsmof: If it weren’t for spinoffs from the space program we’d have been in deep doo-doo

ddavitt: But that’s a practical use; putting it in Fort Knox seems like a game

Heinleinsmof: Why a “game”?

ddavitt: Too many topics here; can we pick one/ I’m getting sprained fingers:-)

ddavitt: OK, let’s do gold then

ddavitt: Game because it’s not enough is it?

ddavitt: Isn’t there more paper than gold? isn’t that inflation?

ddavitt: So what’s the point?

Heinleinsmof: But the gold IS the money; the paper are just representations. Yes, it is inflation. The point is,

Heinleinsmof: it’s a”free” tax

ddavitt: If we all took our paper and demanded our gold ( as maureen did in sail) it would tumble down

Heinleinsmof: That’s why all governments inflate — it’s a form of taxation.

ddavitt: It’s cheating if you ask me

Heinleinsmof: No — the price of gold would rise until it equalled the demand.

ddavitt: So why do you think Heinlein had it disappear?

Sacademy: Governments love inflating their currencies.

ddavitt: Dan davis used plastic money; wonder what backed it up?

Heinleinsmof: The kicker is that Heinlein liked the Social Credit monetary theory, which is an abstraction backed

ddavitt: Printing their own money; very tempting.

Heinleinsmof: by productive capacity

ddavitt: What does that mean? Workers, resources?

Heinleinsmof: DD’s plastic money was probably the same as the Federal Reserve Note — a promise to default if the

RMLWJ1: Hmm. GDP will do it, actually.

Heinleinsmof: government gets into trouble.

geeairmoe2: Would it somehow relate to the bit about Dan’s job of crushing new cars?

ddavitt: That was very funny!

Heinleinsmof: The economic system described in Beyond This Horizon is closely related to Social Credit.

ddavitt: When he asked why they were poor quality and was told they were made to be crushed..

ddavitt: Pointless make work

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

ddavitt: To keep people in jobs

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: revolving door today, Will?

ddavitt: Why is it so quiet suddenly?

geeairmoe2: Gremlins all over.

DjedPar: Anyone want to talk about Pete?

RMLWJ1: Kind of like Brazil and coffee.

ddavitt: Oh yes! He was a great character

ddavitt: The conversations with him were a bit like Kip and Oscar

ddavitt: But he wasn’t exactly a prediction:-) There will always be cats.

DjedPar: Sorry

ddavitt: No; he is a driving force in the book; he is very important

ddavitt: No need to be sorry.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t be cats are always on-topic in a Heinlein discussion

DjedPar: Still too quiet. He inspired the book.

DavidWrightSr: No one has yet discussed the primary missed prediction. ‘Cold Sleep’.

ddavitt: One important overlap there actually; not many H fans who don’t like cats

ddavitt: We can do that now dave; it was all coming thick and fast that’s all

ddavitt: There is a lot to look at. GA with cold sleep; ‘many are cold, but few are frozen’ and all that

ddavitt: Surprised Cryo didn’t pop up in the pre meet posts on this issue

DavidWrightSr: ‘cold sleep’ figures in a lot of RAH’s books. at least a half-dozen or so that I can think of..

DavidWrightSr: off the top of my head

ddavitt: We certainly have missed out on this as it was around from the 1960’s for Dan

ddavitt: Tunnel…BTH maybe?

SandySandfort has entered the room.

ddavitt: What others?

ddavitt: Hi there.

fgherman: Hello Sandy

SandySandfort: Hi

Sacademy: Good evening, Sandy.

DavidWrightSr: Between Planets. Methusalehs’ Children,

Sacademy: Glad you made it.

RMLWJ1: cold sleep seems pretty far off, at this point.

ddavitt: We are looking at cold sleep as part of a discussion on Heinlein’s predictions for 200 in Door

SandySandfort: Hi, you’ll have to excuse any ineptitude. I don’t have much chat experenience.

DavidWrightSr: Well maybe not as many as I thought.

ddavitt: Just leap in when you want to Sandy

ddavitt: Time For The Start perhaps?

ddavitt: Stars I mean

ddavitt: It’s a useful plot device of course

ddavitt: And as an option it’s one that has had a lot of air time on afh

DavidWrightSr: BTH didn’t have cold sleep. it had the stasis field

ddavitt: Not many people seem keen on it

ddavitt: true

geeairmoe2: Didn’t Beyond This Horizon have a character wake up from cold sleep?

ddavitt: And it wasn’t common was it?

geeairmoe2: He tried to explain football.

ddavitt: It was stasis…can’t recall the details. He was tricked

DjedPar: Cold sleep may not be too far off. Look at what they do with blood.

ddavitt: I think it’s still a way off…have they even revived an animal yet?

ddavitt: And with an animal, hard to assess brain damage and such

RMLWJ1: not to my knowledge.

Heinleinsmof: Hi, Sandy. Long Time No See (it’s Bill Patterson)

ddavitt: Would people here do it if it were as safe as it was for Dan?

DjedPar: I used to freeze frogs for pregnancy tests.

SandySandfort: Hi Bill, yeah it’s been a while

ddavitt: Yuck

ddavitt: Friday always strikes me as old fashioned because on the spaceship they don’t have pregnancy kits…

Sacademy: Nasty of you, Denis!

ddavitt: Now you can find out the day after your period should have started; real advances there in a short

ddavitt: space of time. damn this word limit!

fgherman has left the room.

DjedPar has left the room.

RMLWJ1: Even serum pregnancy tests are shaky that early.

DjedPar has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: At least with the old version, it stops you and won’t let you go on. The new version accepts….

ddavitt: I have done it very early and got a result

DavidWrightSr: everything and then gives you a stupid message about being too complex

ddavitt: i am impatient:-)

ddavitt: Anyway, that’s one area we have gone beyond what Heinlein imagined…but we are still failing on most

Sacademy: 😀

ddavitt: of the important ones.

ddavitt: To my mind, space travel is the biggie

RMLWJ1: We need a permanent space station.

Sacademy: It’s out there. Want to pay millions for it?

ddavitt: ALL the books have it as a given…lunar colonies, travel to mars/Venus at least…

DjedPar: Amen to that

RMLWJ1: Then we can mine the asteroids.

DavidWrightSr: You know. When I think of it Door had no mention of space travel did it. It had ‘null grav’ …..

ddavitt: Yes; there are millions of us. i can give a dollar; if we all did, there it is, paid for

DavidWrightSr: but it couldn’t be used (yet) for spaceships

ddavitt: Door had a Venus colony

geeairmoe2: In Grumbles RAH notes ‘Door’ had Martians, then he chucked it out.

DavidWrightSr: I didn’t recall that about the Venus colony

ddavitt: maybe i’m going mad…

DavidWrightSr: You are probably right.

ddavitt: Sire I saw it but I just found the bit about no space travel

ddavitt: perhaps they have ST but just not with null grav

DavidWrightSr: Well, if it is there, it’s a total blank in my memory. :-)

geeairmoe2: Topping my memory of ‘Door’ is Dan’s job of crushing cars never meant to be used.

ddavitt: can’t find my notes for the chat; i will withdraw it:-)

Sacademy: That’s satire on government doings.

DjedPar: Thanks Ginny

ddavitt: They have a lunar shuttle; in the headlines of the paper he reads when he wakes up

Sacademy: Most of you won’t remember when the WPA had its heyday.

ddavitt: Got it!

Sacademy: GA

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: He says they’ve beat the common cold

Sacademy: WB Felicia

ddavitt: ‘that meant more to me than the research colony on Venus”

fgherman: @#$% machine

ddavitt: phew; thought i was starting to imagine things

DjedPar: ditto!

Sacademy: No, it’s AOL

ddavitt: Sleep deprivation can do that to you….

geeairmoe2: Prediction missed: weather control. Rain the same time every day.

ddavitt: Do they have that?

ddavitt: That I missed.

ddavitt: Probably too busy drooling over the idea of shirts that don’t need ironing…

ddavitt: It’s the little things that matter

DavidWrightSr: ‘Sticktite’

DavidWrightSr: sounds a little like spandex ?

fgherman: That’s “Sticktootite”

ddavitt: Yes; I remember my first pair of lycra leggings

Sacademy: Like a jammed zipper.

DavidWrightSr: There was some comment about ‘what the ladies could do with sticktite…’

ddavitt: Superskin eat your heart out:-)

ddavitt: If it stuck to skin it would be a good fabric to work in

DavidWrightSr: You know. he did get the bank access feature exactly right on.

ddavitt: Could be daring with it as it would still cover you where needed and not slip

ddavitt: Nudist beaches though; not common at all in Canada which is pretty straitlaced

ddavitt: What about US? Are there many/

RMLWJ1: Kinda chilly too.

fgherman: all over, but none that I’ve been to.

ddavitt: We have some in UK and you can go topless with not many looks

ddavitt: On all beaches

Sacademy: Isn’t UK warmer than Canada?

ddavitt: Here in canda you would get arrested.

ddavitt: Yes on average but Canadian summers are much warmer

DavidWrightSr: No looks. They must be dead then 😎

SandySandfort: I thought there was a nude beach in Vancouver near the University.

ddavitt: They are quite prudish; even men with no tops on get funny looks

Heinleinsmof: It’s odd, but that kind of thing has gone in and out of fashion several times since the book was

Heinleinsmof: written.

ddavitt: Might be private

ddavitt: Here in my town a woman went topless in a swimming pool to prove a point and was arrested

Heinleinsmof: But your town is “Tronna the Good”

Heinleinsmof: Presbyterian World Central

ddavitt: Small town an hour or so away.

ddavitt: Toronto, you can be fined for grass too long…:-(

ddavitt: Unheard of in UK

Heinleinsmof: I didn’t realize you were so far away from Yonge Street.

RMLWJ1: They can do that here also.

ddavitt: You mean The World’s Biggest Bookshop/?:-)

Sacademy: Jane, I forgot to tell you that Denis has Canadian and US citizenship

ddavitt: It’s a Bad Thing

RMLWJ1: If one doesn’t keep the lawn within certain limits, the city mows it, charges it to real estate taxes.

fgherman: Joel has dual citizenship also.

ddavitt: Oh really? i am still just British but I’ve been in Canada for 4 years now

ddavitt: Of course, my new baby is dual

geeairmoe2: ‘Grass Police’ used to mean cops looking for pot.

ddavitt: Now they’re looking for outlawed weeds

RMLWJ1: lol

ddavitt: Though there was a drug bust on our street last month; people turned basement into a cannabis factory.

Sacademy: Like cannabis?

Heinleinsmof: Just call them “lawn jockeys” as they ride their mowers.

ddavitt: we were described as an upscale suburb. LOL

ddavitt: Mowers that dan David would have had automated

ddavitt: Dan Davis

Sacademy: I used grow papaver somniferum until r. made me stop.

ddavitt: What is that Ginny?

fgherman: HOnda now has an automated mower

Heinleinsmof: I don’t recognize that from the botanical name.

ddavitt: Common name I mean?

Sacademy: Opium poppy

ddavitt: Ah..very pretty flowers

Heinleinsmof: Oh,of course. Yes.

Heinleinsmof: And a thumb to the nose of the busybodies.

Sacademy: Very pretty. Double

ddavitt: I’m sure we innocently grow lots of stuff that is illegal

ddavitt: wild bird seed sprouting and such

fgherman: all I can manage are chives, mint & crabgrass

Sacademy: I got the seed from the RHS

ddavitt: My oregano and lemon balm are taking over the border

RMLWJ1: My mother used to have a huge bed of digitalis.

Heinleinsmof: Trust the Brits to have an interest in the opium poppy.

ddavitt: I’m sure you’d need a lot of flowers to make whatever it is you make

ddavitt: part of our heritage…

Sacademy: Only foxglove. That’s not illegal.

Heinleinsmof: Foxglove is a very common plant

DjedPar: I still do. Have a bed of digitalis

ddavitt: Poisonous though..digitalis

ddavitt: Heart medicine

Heinleinsmof: Heck, Belladona is a landscaping plant, too.

DjedPar: So is Rhubarb leaf

ddavitt: It’s pretty too; I like wildflowers

RMLWJ1: It can be. Digitalis tea is an old remedy for angina.

Heinleinsmof: You’ve got to rememeber, there was no such thing as a prohibited plant in this country until about

Heinleinsmof: 1933

Sacademy: So is oleander, but everyone grows that.

ddavitt: Kudzu

Heinleinsmof: It’s a very recent thing.

SandySandfort: Don’t forget morning glories. Chew the seeds.

RMLWJ1: Yep. Jimson weed, too.

ddavitt: We have purple loosestrife taking over

DavidWrightSr: You got Kudzu in Canada?

Heinleinsmof: And in the southwest — yes, Jimson weed

ddavitt: But it’s so pretty i hate to pull it up

RMLWJ1: We see about a half-dozen cases a year of Jimson weed poisoning.

DjedPar: Kudzu is medicinal?

ddavitt: Field behind us in Uk used to have magic mushrooms

ddavitt: No; I meant it led to banned plants

ddavitt: Because it was so invasive

ddavitt: We are so off topic…..

DavidWrightSr: Tell me about it. I live in the South. We got kudzu everywhere.

Heinleinsmof: The laws against C. sativa were enacted in the 30’s — kudzu didn’t get to these shores until the 70′

ddavitt: I have never seen it

ddavitt: Erosion control wasn’t it?

RMLWJ1: Yeah.

RMLWJ1: Not cold enough down here to control it.

ddavitt: Link it to farmer; they were careful about what they took with them

Heinleinsmof: Gene splice it to grow stuff like soybeans

ddavitt: to Ganymede.

DjedPar: Back to cold sleep?

ddavitt: No one said if they would do it or not?

ddavitt: I would if I didn’t have family perhaps

Heinleinsmof: Where’s CryoRandy when you need him?

DavidWrightSr: Puhleeze

ddavitt: I know who to blame now Bill….

Heinleinsmof: It was completely innocent — I swear!

ddavitt: Or if i were ill

ddavitt: Or if i were ill

ddavitt: Hmm…

DavidWrightSr: If I had no family and had a terminal disease which I thought might be curable, I think

ddavitt: Sorry; it’s stiking tonight

DavidWrightSr: I’d do it….

ddavitt: I think it hasn’t gone and I press send twice

DavidWrightSr: If not just for the chance of seeing the future…

ddavitt: Yes; it is tempting

geeairmoe2: The judge in Dan’s vagrancy case seemed to dislike Sleepers.

ddavitt: It’s akin to immigrants though

geeairmoe2: Called it “dumping riff-raff on us” by their grandfathers.

ddavitt: people arriving who overload the system

DavidWrightSr: good analogy. immigrants from the past.

ddavitt: That never occurs to randy of course. he thinks he will be welcomed with open arms.

ddavitt: Mind boggles as to why

Heinleinsmof: Just think — generations of chat rooms that aren’t wise to his rants!

ddavitt: We would be primitives, disease ridden and ignorant

ddavitt: Vermin…

DavidWrightSr: Aside from the technical problems, the notion of entrusting myself to some institution would….

DavidWrightSr: bother me

ddavitt: Yes; so many opportunities for a scam

fgherman: We would also be living history

geeairmoe2: And that’s assuming their will be a future to be unfrozen in.

ddavitt: A note of optimism!

DjedPar: That’s the only technical difficulty.

ddavitt: Yes, what would we do know with an Ancient eygptian say?

DjedPar: Trusting the freezers

Heinleinsmof: But if there isn’t such a future– we’ll never know it.

Heinleinsmof: So in that sense, it’s a good bed.

ddavitt: Though it wouldn’t be that far back probably; someone from 1970 would be of no value historically

Heinleinsmof: But think of the entertainment value!

ddavitt: Dan had trouble getting a job remember

ddavitt: What about those cerise bell bottoms?

ddavitt: heinlein really got that right…but should have had it for the 1970 bit of the book, not the 2000 part

geeairmoe2: Pet rocks and mood rings. Disco.

fgherman: Please don’t remind me

ddavitt: I remember flares but I was about 11 or 12….

ddavitt: I never wore platform shoes; my mum wouldn’t let me and I thought they were silly

fgherman: I remember hot pants (ugh)

DjedPar: What did RAH think of bellbottoms?

Sacademy: Robrt liked the hot pants.

ddavitt: Colin in cat wears lime green jump suit

DavidWrightSr: A man of good taste.

geeairmoe2: Vertical-stripped bell bottoms. I’ve an old photograph that needs burning.

ddavitt: Hmm…:-)

DavidWrightSr: Robert not Colin

DjedPar: Robert had excellent taste. Very proper.

geeairmoe2: Leisure suits.

ddavitt: Like most revealing fashions it depends on who’s in ’em

Sacademy: Remember those chest protector ties?

geeairmoe2: Never took drugs and I’m still having horrible flashbacks.

RMLWJ1: My dad had a few.

DjedPar: What?

ddavitt: I used to go out dressed in practically nothing; now I’d get looks but not admiring ones…

ddavitt: What were they Ginny?

Heinleinsmof: Reminds me of sf conventions in the early 70’s with their “Most naked costume” competitions.

ddavitt: You mean the really wide ones?

Sacademy: Great big ties–flared out from the knot

geeairmoe2: Streaking!

ddavitt: Sounds intriguing..

DjedPar: I still have some.

ddavitt: Oh yes, i know what you mean now!

Sacademy: Do you wear them Denis?

DjedPar: Good for teasing the cat.

DjedPar: Not often.

Sacademy: Happy to hear that.

Heinleinsmof: We seem to be off topic again — how about a 10 minute break as we are halfway into the session?

Heinleinsmof: (so are his colleagues, Ginny!)

ddavitt: OK but I will be leaving soonsish

Heinleinsmof: Do you want to have the break later?

ddavitt: As it’s getting to my bedtime. But I’m sure someone can take over

DjedPar: Time for a coffee?

ddavitt: No; ga and break

Heinleinsmof: Hilf sich

ddavitt: I will prop open eyes as long as poss

Sacademy: Coffee? At this hour????

Heinleinsmof: Ok — we’re on break until 7:45 PDT

fgherman: I need a martini – brb

ddavitt: Time travellers….10.36 for me

RMLWJ1: Yeah

SandySandfort: Thanks all, I’m off for tonight.

ddavitt: I could drink a gallon and still fall asleep i think. lauren is teething and I was up lots last night

SandySandfort has left the room.

ddavitt: Glad you could make it sandy

Sacademy: Bye, Sandy

ddavitt: darn…too late

ddavitt: brb

ddavitt: back…

fgherman: back

geeairmoe2: These chats need an easy way to provide intermission music.

ddavitt: I hate that stuff on phones!

ddavitt: Drives me mad when i’m on hold and it’s in my ear

Heinleinsmof: Can somebody invite Dehede03 into the room? My Buddy List doesn’t show him.

geeairmoe2: I hate those calls where they ask you to wait for one of their operators.

ddavitt: Ill try

DavidWrightSr: He’s still only on AOL, not on AIM yet.

ddavitt: Oh Ok then

Dehede03 has entered the room.

Sacademy: I did it.

Dehede03: Hey thanx Ginny

Heinleinsmof: He just got called afk

ddavitt: I only had Dehede011

DavidWrightSr: Ah. A different screen name from what I had

ddavitt: Same here

Heinleinsmof: He’s back.

ddavitt: Sounds ominous..Hi Ron

fgherman: Hello

Dehede03: Hi folks.

Sacademy: Evening, Ron

Dehede03: Evening Ginny

ddavitt: We are about to start again after a break

Dehede03: I see Jane here also

Sacademy: How’s the dancing?

DavidWrightSr: 011 = 03 in binary :-)

Dehede03: Hail, hail, the gangs all here.

ddavitt: I said hi but maybe you weren’t back in the room

ddavitt: Hi:-)

Dehede03: Haven’t been dancing lately but I want to restart soon.

ddavitt: So it is dave!

DavidWrightSr: Does anyone have Sandy’s e-mail. She sent it to me, but I forgot to save it and closed the ……

DavidWrightSr: IM window.

Dehede03: Hi, Dave if I don’t speak to you Jane will horse whip me.

ddavitt: Why will I?!

ddavitt: That makes me sound so mean…

Dehede03: Maybe you won’t but my boxing coach told me there were two things I should never do to my face.

Heinleinsmof: Are we back for topic?

ddavitt: We are looking at Heinlein’s predictions

Dehede03: He said that I should never kiss an alligator or mess with a woman

Heinleinsmof: Wise advice.

DavidWrightSr: Is there a difference?

DjedPar: How about a frog?

ddavitt: Where’s that horsewhip?

Dehede03: Yes, alligators don’t get as deadly.

Sacademy: A frozen one?

Heinleinsmof: You have a monopoly on messing with frogs?

DavidWrightSr: True

RMLWJ1: Ladies, gents, I’m going to have to call it an evening. EArly shift tomorrow.

ddavitt: I declare this subject incendiary

RMLWJ1: It’s been a pleasure.

Heinleinsmof: burning frogs now?

Dehede03: He said I only need to know how to say three things.

DavidWrightSr: Night Leon. Thanks for coming

Heinleinsmof: Aleister Crowley has nothing on you

ddavitt: I’m all sympathy there

fgherman: Good night Leon

RMLWJ1: Thank you for inviting me.

DjedPar: French Canadians are sometimes called frogs. Even the pretty ones

Dehede03: Nite leon

Sacademy: Good night Leon. It’s my time to go, too. I’m late tonight.

RMLWJ1: do svidaniya

ddavitt: Night ; thanks for coming

DavidWrightSr: vam tozhe

Heinleinsmof: vsyevo xoroshova

ddavitt: Night SA, see you soon.

RMLWJ1: Nice chattiing with you, ma’am.

RMLWJ1 has left the room.

fgherman: Good night Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Nite Ginny

Sacademy: Urk, Bill, your Russian is poor. Bye

Sacademy has left the room.

ddavitt: I’m still puzzled Ron but , let it go, I’m feeling merciful.

ddavitt: On with the topic before Bill shour=ts at me

Heinleinsmof: I would never shour=ts at you.

geeairmoe2: RAH mentions slang changes. Dan mentions telling a woman he was a Sleeper …

geeairmoe2: … and almost is punched out by her husband.

DavidWrightSr: and ‘service stations’

ddavitt: He used the word ‘kink’

ddavitt: that was why he got hit almost

Heinleinsmof: Oh, frell!

geeairmoe2: A ‘host’ took your coat and had nothing to do with the birth rate.

ddavitt: I think that is a given; obvious one is gay

ddavitt: We see word shift all the time in a very short space nowadays

ddavitt: Look at the new words coined for the net.

ddavitt: ‘net’ itself now has another meaning

ddavitt: “flame war’ isn’t literal anymore

fgherman: Let’s not forget spam (as if we could)

Dehede03: Right, I constantly amazed by shifts in meaning.

ddavitt: Good one!

geeairmoe2: The net has another definition of ‘host’.

Heinleinsmof: Spam, spam, Spam, Spam, spamity-spam!

fgherman: (bloody Vikings”

geeairmoe2: But I don’t like spam!

ddavitt: I think that wasn’t a prediction so much…or was it a little slower back in the 50’s?

ddavitt: Was language more set in stone then?

Heinleinsmof: No — there were a lot of additions to the language from the 20’s to the end of WWII

fgherman: no no daddio

Dehede03: No, slang changed and swept the nation overnight even back in the fifties.

DavidWrightSr: Not really, but increases in communication will always make language change faster.

Dehede03: sure

Dehede03: In about 48 TV swept the nation and slang spread much faster.

ddavitt: So, that wasn’t a prediction then exactly, more an extrapolation

geeairmoe2: Rap Musice phrases are sliding into the mainstream.

Heinleinsmof: I like the way chatrooms are streamlining the language — afaik.

Heinleinsmof: IMO

Heinleinsmof: afk

Heinleinsmof: etc.

ddavitt: What about the net and personal computers?Heinlein didn’t have that at all

DavidWrightSr: Radio and TV also has had a lot to do in leveling out differences in some dialectical differences

DjedPar: Tower of babel?

ddavitt: Because in 1955 there was no hint of it and it would have required

ddavitt: a total leap in the dark?

Heinleinsmof: The idea of a personal computer was completely out of the paradigm in 1955

DavidWrightSr: Remember 1955. Computers were giant machines and cost millions.

ddavitt: i.e he predicted an oak from an acorn but the acorn had to be there

Heinleinsmof: After all, it wasn’t so long before that that IBM predicted there would never be a need for more than

ddavitt: I’m not blaming him; just trying to work it out

Heinleinsmof: 6 computers in the whole world

ddavitt: Heh; easy to laugh now i suppose

fgherman: And even if you have the acorn, you don’t know which way the oak will grow

ddavitt: Like the man who said rockets couldn’t work in the 1950’s

geeairmoe2: The Wright Bros thought planes would only carry mail.

fgherman: Such as lasers to personal CD players

Heinleinsmof: The Starman Jones scenario was in the paradigm — but the personal computer and internet wasn’t

ddavitt: The tree can go off in all directions yes. impossible to preict; too many variables

Heinleinsmof: And the cascade effect from personal computing to computation-intensive areas of math that had been

Heinleinsmof: neglected before —

ddavitt: SJ was simply updating existing navigational techniques; Life on Missisipsi parallel

Heinleinsmof: to chaos mathematics, fractals, Mandelbaum sets, to 21st century science.

Heinleinsmof: Catastrophe theory.

ddavitt: That freebootr pointed out

ddavitt: I don’t think in 1955 ANYONE could have predicted what we are all doing here tonight

Heinleinsmof: Everything cascades from everything else — miss one and a big chunk of the future disappears from

Heinleinsmof: your thinking

ddavitt: Yet people in 1905 might have been able to predict 1955

ddavitt: Becasue they had started to move to cars and planes

Dehede03: Good night everyone, see you sat.

Heinleinsmof: I don’t know –the predictions made around 1905 were pretty wide of the 1950 mark.

ddavitt: Night Ron

fgherman: Good night

Dehede03 has left the room.

Heinleinsmof: Has anybody read Ralph124C41+?

DjedPar: Bye

fgherman: I still want my flying car

DavidWrightSr: But as Heinlein pointed out in EU, no one could have predicted the secondary results of such things

ddavitt: Which ones? By Wells maybe?

Heinleinsmof: I was thinking more of Hugo Gernsback.

ddavitt: Ah..

Heinleinsmof: RAlph was about 1911, I think.

ddavitt: Don’t know them. Know his name. What did he think then?

fgherman: Prediction tends to be linear

fgherman: History doesn’t alway work that way

Heinleinsmof: Jet propelled roller skates.

Heinleinsmof: Wecan give him visiphones; that had been a solid prediction for awhile by then.

ddavitt: We could have them

DjedPar: That’s scary.

ddavitt: Do have videophones

DavidWrightSr: That’s what the losians used in Citizen.

fgherman: We don’t want them

ddavitt: No way!

fgherman: The techs been there for years

ddavitt: Too invasive

fgherman: exactly

DavidWrightSr: Well with computers tied in, you could have the vidophone show only a great image of yourself.

ddavitt: I like privacy on the phone; no need to tidy up

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

fgherman: Cell phones

DjedPar: That’s scary too!

ddavitt: I don’t have one…don’t see the need

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

geeairmoe2: The trick in predicting the future is figuring out what people in that future will see …

fgherman: Not predicted…look at the impact

geeairmoe2: … as things indispensible to their copmfort.

ddavitt: Well, I need my computer now; I’m hooked

geeairmoe2: What things can we do without now that will be necessicites in the future.

Heinleinsmof: I just finished up a month in Santa Cruz where I was utterly dependent on my computer.

geeairmoe2: Spell checkers, maybe.

fgherman: The Newton didn’t take off, but the Palm Pilot did.

geeairmoe2: VHS instead of Beta.

ddavitt: maybe airconditioning if the global warming continues?

geeairmoe2: Personal, self-contained air conditioned clothing?

DavidWrightSr: Neil Smith’s Smartsuits

ddavitt: I will have to go now; I don’t know about saturday; if i can’t make it, I think dave Silver will host

geeairmoe2: Complete with your Palm Pilot.

fgherman: Good night Jane

Heinleinsmof: Smartsuits! Yeah!

ddavitt: If not, I’m sure you can all do a great job of self hosting!

…………. part of log lost ………

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: I show you as being in the room, David.

DavidWrightSr: Well, my shortcut does work, I thought it was off when no one was here.

DavidWrightSr: I guess I’ll have to just post what I had up to my getting kicked off.

Heinleinsmof: I didn’t think to keep a log — I got kicked off shortly before that.

DavidWrightSr: Things sure cleared out in a hurry. I wasn’t gone more than 2-3 minutes.

Heinleinsmof: Jane left and the party kinda died down.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll check with Jane. she usually saves it, but if not, then we’re not missing anything too important.

Heinleinsmof: OK — I’ve finished all my online stuff, so I’m going by-by,

Heinleinsmof: Have fun.

DavidWrightSr: Good night then.

Heinleinsmof: ciao

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:30 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 05-26-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT “Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 05-26-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

“Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi David

AGplusone: Hi, David … madly typing into IM windows

AGplusone: sorry I didn’t get here swiftly

DavidWrightSr: That’s ok. Did you see the log. We are apparently now limited to 100 characters. Bummer

AGplusone: Yes, lowest common denominator, back down to the 81 or 79 limit in AOL rooms

KultsiKN has entered the room.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi, Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Hi Kultsi

KultsiKN: Good evening all!

SAcademy: Hello David

SAcademy: Hello Kultsi

DavidWrightSr: AIM has cut us to about 100 characters. It’s somewhat of a pain.

KultsiKN: The new version?

SAcademy: Really? What happens then? Do we talk in Wagnerian telegraphese?

AGplusone: But if you use a lot of …s when you are trying to express a long thought, you can get through it

AGplusone: No, it’s a little longer still than the 81 characters the AOL (on-AOL) rooms give you.

DavidWrightSr: Version doesn’t matter, except new version lets you type all you wont’ but then won’t send it

DavidWrightSr: wont=want

KultsiKN: Uh-huh.

AGplusone: It rings an alert when you hit the limit … mine alert is a bell

AGplusone: my alert

SAcademy: I suppose that would frustrate some!

AGplusone: and if I type fast I have to stop and wait for all the bells to stop ringing

AGplusone: before I can send

SAcademy: I’ve lost all the sound effects. Have to get someone in to fix them

fgherman has entered the room.

KultsiKN: S’thing good in being a slow typist.

AGplusone: [I did read your log Dave and got here early to test that aspect … was hoping it wouldn’t limit Macs

AGplusone: ]

AGplusone: Hit the limit with that sentence.

DavidWrightSr: Limit appears to be on server, not client.

fgherman: Hello all

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia … did I get it right this time?

KultsiKN: Too popular, I s’pose.

fgherman: Yes you did

AGplusone: great

SAcademy: Good afternoon

DavidWrightSr: Nope. my pc doesn’t give me any warning at all.

AGplusone: Hope you like Three Men in a boat

DavidWrightSr: when I overtype

AGplusone: Maybe you should get a Mac, Dave …

SAcademy: Especially the can of pineapple!

AGplusone:

DavidWrightSr: Heaven forbid :-)

DavidWrightSr: BRB. got to feed the animals and take my medicine

AGplusone: I loved the pineapple can … and opener

AGplusone: Okay, we’ll start in about five minutes. How’s Joel, Felicia?

fgherman: He’s coming down with the same cold I’ve got, but otherwise, ok

AGplusone: Hope it’s not the same one I fought off Thursday and Friday

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Jon, welcome

OakMan 7111: Hello, all

fgherman: Hello Jon

OakMan 7111: Hi David

KultsiKN: Hello, Jon!

SAcademy: Hello

fgherman: I’ve dragged myself away from Cloudmakers

OakMan 7111: Wow, what a warm greeting, thanks

AGplusone: Ahhh … what is Cloudmakers?

OakMan 7111: good. I made a point of being home in time to catch this chat

fgherman: That’s the group following the mystery game that’s part of A.I. the new Spielberg movie

fgherman: very addictive

AGplusone: They’re starting to promo that movie … heavily

fgherman: If the movie is half is good as the mystery is should be a knockout

SAcademy: I can promise you one thing. I am not going to see it.

fgherman: Why not

SAcademy: Hate movies.

fgherman: That’s a good reason

SAcademy: They ruin everything. But they’re good for selling books.

fgherman: I love movies, especially Kubrick movies

AGplusone: Lately there haven’t been a good many good ones.

fgherman: And this is based on a script he developed from the Brian Aldiss story.

fgherman: I don’t think books translate well into movies

KultsiKN: Did they mutilate the story?

fgherman: Short stories on the other hand…

OakMan 7111: I just purchased a “Fine” copy of the 1950 Astounding in which RAH writes of the making

fgherman: Haven’t read the Aldiss story

OakMan 7111: of “destination Moon”

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Second time I’ve owned that edition – last time it cost me fifty cents

fgherman: Puppetmasters wasn’t half bad

AGplusone: Is there anything in it that isn’t in the collection Requiem, Jon? Like photos, etc.?

AGplusone: Hi, Bill, welcome

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill

SAcademy: Only the other half.

Heinleinsmof: Howdy

fgherman: At least it wasn’t “Starship Showgirls”

fgherman: Heloo Bill

siannon secundus has entered the room.

SAcademy: I can’t read that color at all.

KultsiKN: Secundus?

OakMan 7111: Welcome Jani!

AGplusone: Better than Project Moonbase, I hope.

fgherman: Hello Jani

AGplusone: You are Jani?

siannon secundus: No I am!

siannon secundus: Hi everyone, assorted hugs and so on :-)

SAcademy: Bill, that’s even worse.

AGplusone: Okay, let’s start … ’tis close enough to the beginning.

AGplusone: Everyone is sending in black and bold?

OakMan 7111: The cover is a pic – thats the only one

AGplusone: Has any1 read Jane’s piece in the Heinlein Journal about Three Men in a Boat and Number of the Beast?

KultsiKN: Jani, you’re too yellow…

siannon secundus: Yellow?

KultsiKN: Your name is all yellow, at least on my screen.

AGplusone: She suggests that among other things, Number is a tribute to some humor RAH enjoyed.

siannon secundus: Sorry kultsi, I don’t know how to change that …

AGplusone: Including Three Men in a Boat …

OakMan 7111: I think NoB is very very funny

AGplusone: Could we look at that first?

DavidWrightSr: GA

AGplusone: I think the four major characters in Number are take offs on the four characters in Boat … any agree

AGplusone: or dis agree?

AGplusone: Let me describe the four ….

AGplusone: 1. A know-it-all, who has no practical experience … RogerPilkey has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Hello Roger welcome

AGplusone: 2. A lazy get by with as little effort as possible …

fgherman: Hello Roger

AGplusone: 3. A builder of consensus, mild appearing, harboring a great intelligence RogerPilkey: hi, first time using aim, won’t talk much..

AGplusone: 4. a pugnacious fighter with everyone and everything

AGplusone: Hi, Roger … just finished my summary

AGplusone: In Boat, Harris is the know-it-all … I suggest someone in Number fits that description

Heinleinsmof: Jake

rjjusu has entered the room.

rjjusu: Hello campers

AGplusone: likewise, 2 is George, 3 is “J” or Jay, and 4 is Montmorcey …

AGplusone: Hi, Randy, we’re just starting … with a comparison of characters in Boat and in RAH’s Number of the

AGplusone: Beast

AGplusone: And I agree with Bill, Jake is the equivalent to Harris

siannon secundus: Oh, Hilda’s the dog, then?

Heinleinsmof: And HIlda, doubtless, with Montmorency

AGplusone: Any guesses as to who is whom? Exactly, Jani!

OakMan 7111: dog?

rjjusu: Now Jani, don’t be so …… catty?

siannon secundus: She’s too clever. More like a cat….

siannon secundus: Damn, Randy, beat me to it :-)

AGplusone: Montmorency … is a fox terrier that fights with everyone, and always starts things

Heinleinsmof: Named after the variety of cherries?

AGplusone: Doesn’t that remind you of Hilda, Sharpie, Corners …

siannon secundus: Cherries?

Heinleinsmof: That’s the only other Montmorency I know — except it’s named for the locale.

AGplusone: Where is Montmorency, Bill?

siannon secundus: I never heard of Montmorency cherries, that’s all

AGplusone: And what kind of cherry …

rjjusu: Given the usual dialog of Space Opera, one with cream on top.

Heinleinsmof: Poitiers? Anjou? Somewhere in southwestern France, I think

AGplusone: [there is, for cat lovers, a nifty little tidbit about Montmorency and a big black tom in Boat]

rjjusu: Anjou = Pears?

OakMan 7111: Isn’t Montmorency also known for its wine?

Heinleinsmof: I don’t recall — brandied cherries is the only association I have for Montmorency.

AGplusone: In any event, any guesses to the identity for the two who are left? Or dis agreement with my theory …

AGplusone: yes/no/bored stiff … indicate by “a” “b” or “c”

fgherman: Silence gives consent

fgherman: a

OakMan 7111: d: wishing I’d had time to check the suggested reading out

siannon secundus: B!

siannon secundus: I read Jane’s essay, but it was ages ago …

AGplusone: You can download Boat Jon …

DavidWrightSr: Me too. Just downloaded it Thursday morning.

OakMan 7111: I know – I had every intention of doing it last night.

DavidWrightSr: I posted the link on the log.

AGplusone: Jane doesn’t identify Hilda as that nasty little fox terrier, but …

KultsiKN: Gimme URL, pls.

[Editor’s Note: Link here for download]

OakMan 7111: (thats how I knew)

OakMan 7111: I do like that description of Hilda – except I’d put ‘brave’ in place of “little”

AGplusone: Turning to “humor” for a moment … why isn’t HSS-WT as cutting as say, for example, Number of the B

AGplusone: when it portrays the role of the taxman, for example …?

siannon secundus: Not as satirical?

AGplusone: That’s part of it, I think … anyone else?

Heinleinsmof: The whole of TNOTB is a romp, whereas in most other books, humor is incidental.

OakMan 7111: I wonder of Heinlein felt more assurred of commercial success and pulled fewer punches?

Heinleinsmof: And he uses different forms of humor, too — his whimsey can be startling.

siannon secundus: Yes, good point Bill

AGplusone: It’s a juvenile, of course, which meant it had to get by Eagle-Eye Dalglish

AGplusone: who might have felt that the most noble act we perform is being tax-givers

AGplusone: :-)

OakMan 7111: LOL

siannon secundus: Was she English ? :-)

AGplusone: Not sure … Ginny? Bill?

OakMan 7111: I’ve never thought of what I do on April 14th as “giving”

AGplusone: She was certainly an advocate of English children’s novels, Wind in the Willows, among others

Heinleinsmof: I’ve heard it said she was English,but have no support for that.

AGplusone: But Kip’s world is different from Deety’s, isn’t it?

OakMan 7111: Kip’s world is staid, isn’t it?

Heinleinsmof: Utopian fifties.

AGplusone: different in outrage factor, perhaps, fifties were utopian a bit

AGplusone: Everyone was complacent … the educators so complacent they started tinkering with the basic mechanis

AGplusone: mechanisms

DavidWrightSr: Aside from personalities, were there events in 3men that correspond to NOTB?

siannon secundus: Corkscrew

AGplusone: Yes, and with HSS-WT …

Heinleinsmof: There are actually two views of the fifties — placid utopia versus pressure cooker.

fgherman: I go with pressure cooker myself

AGplusone: but most felt at the time “it was the best of all possible worlds” … at least that’s what we were

AGplusone: told to believe.

Heinleinsmof: Both were true.

OakMan 7111: First ten years of my life – my judgement is skewed towards idyllic

siannon secundus: It seemed OK at the time (I was about four)

AGplusone: So, if you’re outraged with paying taxes, you pay in cash and depend on a very interesting odd deci-

AGplusone: sion from the Tax Court that said you didn’t have to keep records …

DavidWrightSr: Was it ever possible to actually get away with that?

AGplusone: Sure, the guy in the case that went up to the Court

OakMan 7111: pennies?

AGplusone: (pennies in a bucket of axle grease tended to really annoy the IRS, Jon)

Heinleinsmof: Hey, legal tender is legal tender.

DavidWrightSr: You mean, that’s how he paid his taxes ? O:-)

OakMan 7111: thats why you should make sure the grease is boiling….

AGplusone: Right, but as Kip’s dad says, “never knew a skunk welcome at a picnic”

rjjusu: not everything that is legal is right (or smart) and vice versa

SAcademy: I;ve had run ins with the Inland revenue in UK–IRS isn”t the only one that’s that way!

AGplusone: So bundles of bills was what Kip’s dad sent in … which got him a visit from his friendly “I’m from

AGplusone: the gobment and am here to he’p you” agent

siannon secundus: Hehehe Which is worse, SA, ours or yours?

fgherman: As Westlake’s Parker said, “You don’t mess with the Feds.”

Heinleinsmof: There were lots of interesting loopholes in the fifties — remember a film about a revenoo’er come to

Heinleinsmof: audit a family that bartered everything.

AGplusone: I agree: I once was ‘from the gubment and am here to he’p you’ I took it personally.

AGplusone: … of course I was young then …

AGplusone: But, and here’s the question: what does that sort of humor do?

SAcademy: OTOH–ever had an audit?

AGplusone: the poking of mild fun at the IRS …

fgherman: SA, don’t talk dirty

OakMan 7111: Only the CPA kind – and that was a pain but semi-self-inflicted

Heinleinsmof: I think it was more to characterize Kip’s family and background — well outside the box.

SAcademy: Try it sometime.

fgherman: I’ll pass, thank you

fgherman: Rather give birth again

AGplusone: [I once investigated a company run by a former IRS agent … I asked without a subpoena for all his…

SAcademy: Okay. I’m with you, but now and then they insist

siannon secundus: I had the VAT man when I was self-employed … that isn’t nice :-(

AGplusone: books and records and he then confessed, figuring I had the same powers the IRS had, and settled.]

Heinleinsmof: Obviously not a constitutional lawyer.

AGplusone: Nah, the penalty was that serious … life goes on was his feeling.

AGplusone: wasn’t

AGplusone: Back to my question above–what does the sort of humor we’re discussing do?

Heinleinsmof: Actually, I wonder what power the IRS actually has — it isn’t part of the government, you know.

siannon secundus: Subvert?

AGplusone: perhaps

AGplusone: what else

rjjusu: Reduce

SAcademy: Sense of humor makes you remember whaat is said in the book

AGplusone: … and … what else?

siannon secundus: Take a different perspective

Heinleinsmof: And shakes up peoples’ preconceptions, too — not everybody is in the nuclear family with 2.3 kids, e

Heinleinsmof: etc

AGplusone: What do you mean by “reduce” Randy?

Heinleinsmof: I guess that falls within “subvert”

fgherman: I remember that the more you had read, the more references you’d catch in NOTB

rjjusu: Humor is both a salve and a weapon

DavidWrightSr: Maybe what David means is that such …

DavidWrightSr: jokes tend to make you bypass the real invidiual and replace with a sterotype

DavidWrightSr: invidual=individual

AGplusone: “salve” is a great part of what I’m getting at …

siannon secundus: Reduce to size

fgherman: Say archtype instead of steroetype

OakMan 7111: When I was working in theatre, I developed a theory:

DavidWrightSr: I’m not sure of the difference.

OakMan 7111: Humor suggests that problems can be solved – tragedy suggests they can’t

AGplusone: Except the monkey that was at the end of the line in SiaSL wasn’t laughing … — it does, doesn’t it,

AGplusone: Jon.

DavidWrightSr: As someone said Thursday, humor is a way of coping with problems.

siannon secundus: Archetype is like an original, and stereotype is reducing individuals to a *type*

AGplusone: Maybe it’s the archetypical way of coping?

rjjusu: when someone is reduced by humor, they often have to

rjjusu: face up to the fact that they are not what they seem.

SAcademy: What about the regimented heaven inJOB?

OakMan 7111: archetype is the cookie cutter – stereotype is just another cookie

siannon secundus: No humour in that heaven

OakMan 7111: I laughed constantly in the heaven sequence, jani

KultsiKN: Dis agree, Jani.

AGplusone: I thought there was … Pete and the Sister saw a lot of things as funny

siannon secundus: Oh nice def, Jon

OakMan 7111: :-)

siannon secundus: Funny to the reader, not to the participants, I meant :-)

DavidWrightSr: Class vs object ? (OOP)

AGplusone: And he used a bit of humor … “lemme talk to the Spook … ”

Heinleinsmof: Comedy deals with unions; tragedy with separations.

fgherman: Hit the nail on the head Jon

rjjusu: But remember, valid stereotypes have a survival value, while unquestioned ones do not.

AGplusone: which probably dealt with his frustrations.

Heinleinsmof: And “humor” is a reference to medieval medical theory.

Heinleinsmof: Reduces everything to types or humors

OakMan 7111: (I’m wg a paper on OOP right now, David)

OakMan 7111: writing a paper

AGplusone: anyone ever read a book of essays called Homo Ludens?

AGplusone: Ludens=playing

Heinleinsmof: That’s either “playing man” or gay guy with a coughdrop.

OakMan 7111: << resisting urge to ask if it was written by Smith Bros.

rjjusu: A Venusian named Smith?

AGplusone: Writer of that book had a theory that playing, including using humor, was how we essentially coped wit

AGplusone: with everything

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

rjjusu: 2nd Cousin to the Martian Smith

Heinleinsmof: Model-making; a very fundamental human activity.

rjjusu: But that’s what stereotypes are – Models

AGplusone: “The Play’s the thing”

Heinleinsmof: Maybe the humor in such play is in the area where the model doesn’t fit the reality.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I’d agree it’s the place where the real world doesn’t fit the expectation …

Heinleinsmof: Like the guy who heard ?the map is not the territory,” so he shoveled a couple cubic yards of the ter

AGplusone: which is opposite, I think, to your view.

Heinleinsmof: ritory into his van.

rjjusu: Both models and stereotypes are shorthand versions of “reality”.

rjjusu: Good models/stereotypes have value, bad ones do not.

siannon secundus: so what’s “reality”, then?

rjjusu: Third door down from truth….

Heinleinsmof: experience.

OakMan 7111: We all stereotype to some extent as we deal with strangers, especially

siannon secundus: Hmmmm

AGplusone: [author of Homo Ludens, btw, was Johan Huizinga, German published in early 40s is Switzerland]

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

AGplusone: in Switz

Heinleinsmof: Schweiz

siannon secundus: (what is it, David?)

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

AGplusone: A book of essays, ‘a study of the play element in culture’, Jani

siannon secundus: Thank you :-)

siannon secundus: Made a note ..

Heinleinsmof: Heinlein wrote quite an unexpectedly large amount of humor

rjjusu: Why unexpectedly?

DavidWrightSr: Why do you say, ‘unexpectedly’?

Heinleinsmof: We just don’t think of him as acomic writer — but he did write quite a bit.

AGplusone: Fact he did, I suggest, gets me to suggest that the ‘humor’ may be what Ginny suggested …

AGplusone: it gets people to remember what he wrote.

fgherman: Heinlein used humor conversationally,

AGplusone: ‘sugar makes the medicine go down’

fgherman: He didn’t set up comedic situations

Heinleinsmof: Also, it’s a good way to burst pretentions.

Heinleinsmof: I’m thinking of the characters in Double Star

AGplusone: For example, Bill, which ones and how … Dak Broadbent writing Acey Wheelright novels?

AGplusone: And POETRY!

OakMan 7111: A very funny book and Smythe is a wonderfully funny character

DavidWrightSr: I loved the family scene in ‘Rolling Stones’ when they twins got home late. Hazel was hilarious

Heinleinsmof: And — I can’t remember her name — Penny? Deflating Larry Smith’s self-pretentions.

OakMan 7111: Penny is right name

Doc4Kidz has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Hi Doc

AGplusone: Hi, Barry …

fgherman: Hello

Doc4Kidz: hello everyone, I seem to have wandered into the Saturday chat.

SAcademy: I thought that the funniest part of Rolling Stones was the comprison of the development of the rockets

rjjusu: Doc, can you BOLD your type?

AGplusone: {And would you like a copy of the log thus far Barry}

Doc4Kidz: done

DavidWrightSr: Hi Doc. Welcome

Doc4Kidz: thanks, David

Doc4Kidz: (both Davids)

SAcademy: Hello, doctor.

DavidWrightSr: rockets vis a vis automobiles?

Doc4Kidz: Hello

OakMan 7111: Barry – I’m Jon Ogden when I am not a tree – the Society’s webman

DavidWrightSr: ‘three whole generations were slaves to them’ (autos that is)

SAcademy: It’s an essay which runs about two pages toward the start of the book

Doc4Kidz: nice to “meet” you Jon.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: likewise

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn …

fgherman: Hello Tawn

Heinleinsmof: Goodness, we can almost hold a Board meeting!

SAcademy: A digression while they’re shopping for a ship.

TAWN3: Hello everyone

rjjusu: I’m about to sacrifice a goat to have hellfire and brimstone rain down on AOHell

AGplusone: :-)

OakMan 7111: Randy – I have a very sharp silver knife I’d gladly let you borrow

AGplusone: Okay, it’s about 55 past the hour, I suggest we take ten, think about what comes next

AGplusone: and resume at 5 past the hour

rjjusu: I thought the discussion about rocketship development showed great engineering insight

AGplusone: Dave, you have the conn … maybe someone will send a log to Tawn while I water Bob

AGplusone: afk

DenvToday has entered the room.

rjjusu: Lookin’ like a full house!

DavidWrightSr: Good crowd tonight. Thursday was a little light.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron, doing a break until 5 past now … free chat til then

siannon secundus: Randy, sacrifices are my bailiwick, dear :-)

DenvToday: Hello everybody!

DenvToday: Thanks David.

fgherman: Hello Ron RogerPilkey has left the room.

fgherman: Guess gas prices have kept everyone home this week-end

rjjusu: Yes dear, but I’m getting to the point where I so want to learn …… and practice.

DenvToday: Hello fg. Good to see you today.

fgherman: Thanks

KultsiKN: How much in the US, Felicia?

fgherman: Around $1.89 / gal here in Minneapolis

fgherman: whcih is highest it’s ever been here

Heinleinsmof: Send some of that to California.

Heinleinsmof: It’s about 2.18 here.

siannon secundus: Yes Randy … classes are being held, I’ll let you know :-)

DavidWrightSr: I’m lucky. Here in the south, regular is around 1.47, but I’ve heard that some midwest

DavidWrightSr: places are well over 2.00

rjjusu: Message are too long. AOL are too stupid…

KultsiKN: A quick calculation gives ours about $4.50/gal :-(

fgherman: I’m home with a cold

DavidWrightSr: You noticed the 100 character limitation I gather :-)

AGplusone: I actually looked for Bob to water. found him sleeping in the clothes dryer … !!!

rjjusu: Kind of …… wasn’t sure where the breakpoint was. Must be a server “upgrade”

Heinleinsmof: That’s new — it used to be about 450 characters

AGplusone: he’s found a new hideout

SAcademy: Anyone think that those gas prices will overturn the government?

fgherman: Ibuprofen has *finally* kicked in

Heinleinsmof: Give Bob a lint trap.

rjjusu: Dave, he’ll only do that as long as no one turns the dryer *ON*

fgherman: From your mouth to G-d’s ear…

TAWN3: No

fgherman: Sen Jeffords did what he could.

siannon secundus: better the dryer than the washer ..

TAWN3: Americans are upset about it but stupid, estimated record auto travel this weekend. People will pay.

AGplusone: I gotta break him of that habit … afraid someone will actually close the door on him

Doc4Kidz: what, double crossed the voters who elected him as a Republican?

Doc4Kidz: was that admirable?

AGplusone: up to his voters, isn’t it?

rjjusu: Tell Bob to put an “Occupied” sign on the door when he goes in….

AGplusone: Right!

fgherman: Yes, he voted his principles and that’s what the voters on Vermont want him to do

SAcademy: They say that Vermont is different.

Doc4Kidz: they already voted for the Rep, then he changed him mind. Do that before the election if you’re hone

Doc4Kidz: st

siannon secundus: Did they vote for the man or the party?

rjjusu: Depends who you ask

TAWN3: ??????

fgherman has left the room.

Doc4Kidz: some vote party. He misrepresneted himslef to those voters.

AGplusone: They published a chart in the LA Times listing all those in modern times

AGplusone: Had one who crossed and then went back after a few years

OakMan 7111: He took the Republican national Committee’s money and didn’t stay bought – that makes him a bad

TAWN3: They did shorten msg size!

OakMan 7111: politician in RAH’s terms, doesn’t it?

Doc4Kidz: got nothing against the guy. Maybe he does have principles, but…

Doc4Kidz: not kosher that way

rjjusu: Yes, Tawn, and it’s about to drive me crazy

fgherman has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: me, too – suddenly this is like AOL, not AIM

AGplusone: He’s a good example about what RAH writes in How to be a Politician … the Hughes event in California

siannon secundus: But, did he not use the system to change the balance of power?

AGplusone: when Hughes’ CoS didn’t bother to have lunch or even chat with the governor, Hiram Johnson

AGplusone: So did Johnson … Hughes didn’t win California

rjjusu: Actually, I’m not surprised that this happened, because the six sigma members of both parties

rjjusu: are driving away the center.

fgherman: It just shows that Trent Lott has no people skills.

AGplusone: Look at Campbell 6 or 8 years ago … went from Dem to Rep in Colorado

Doc4Kidz: again, nothing particularly against the guy, but not especially admirable, either.

fgherman: Sorry to have opened this can of worms

Heinleinsmof: There is so little substantive difference between the two parties that one can only assume a switch l

SAcademy: Colorado is a swing state.

Heinleinsmof: like that is for personal advantage.

AGplusone: Well, we’re back on again … anyway, Felicia …

fgherman: But I’m no fan of the President-Select

AGplusone: back to humor, Heinlein, Willis and Jerome …

Heinleinsmof: And speaking about Willis — how about the Bouncer in Red Planet?

Doc4Kidz: he could have voted his concience without changing parties at this specific time.

AGplusone: Anyone besides me read Dooms Day Book by Willis, not by William the Bastard?

Doc4Kidz: (ok, enough from me on this)

fgherman: not yet

TAWN3: SAcademy, if people want more affordable gas, they will force govts, including local ones,

AGplusone: Recommend it strongly!

TAWN3: , to stop regulating production and distribution so much

SAcademy: Willis was the result of us getting a tape recorder/

OakMan 7111: Moliere wrote an essay in which he suggested that we laughed whenever we saw human beings

TAWN3: (What I tried to send before.)

OakMan 7111: acting like machines

AGplusone: Was it Moliere who described man as a featherless biped?

OakMan 7111: which is pretty much a nother defintion of stereotype

AGplusone: I.e., a plucked chicken

OakMan 7111: I thot that was Dogbrt, David

AGplusone: Or was that Moliere making a joke about Aristotle?

rjjusu: Stereotype or someone with a “word with ways”?

AGplusone: Who so defined it.

AGplusone: The ‘humor’ in Dooms Day Book is the only thing that keeps you from going nuts reading it, if you’re

OakMan 7111: The example he used was that we laugh at the man who slips on a bannana peel —

OakMan 7111: if he was walking along not watching where he was going

AGplusone: paying attention to the plight of this grad student sent back to the Black Plague.

Heinleinsmof: WAsn’t that 150 years after the Domesday book?

AGplusone: Yes, at least

AGplusone: Domesday Book by William started when he consolidated his newly-won kingdom

AGplusone: Black Plague hit England about 1248 or so, IIRC

Heinleinsmof: The big plague was 1360-66

Heinleinsmof: They had minor plagues about every 30 years for 200 years.

rjjusu: So how did a Martian bouncer get a book published on earth?

fgherman: Definitely a 14th century thing

AGplusone: You’re right, Ginny … the Black Plague was 13XX

AGplusone: So it’s 250 at least

rjjusu: I mean, did Willis just send an interplanetary fax?

Heinleinsmof: E-mail

Heinleinsmof: We’re getting Martian e-mail capability, you know.

Heinleinsmof: Sometimes I feel I’m living in a Greg Egan novel

SAcademy: Drudge reported that.

rjjusu: Not through AOL you aren’t – you know how long those martian words can be….

AGplusone: Are there any stories by RAH that anyone can think of that the ‘humor’ is the only thing that keeps

AGplusone: your reading because the subject matter described is otherwise so distressing that you might not in

AGplusone: the wrong mood keep reading?

Heinleinsmof: “My Object All Sublime,” “Our Fair City.”

DavidWrightSr: Never!!

Heinleinsmof: “Jerry Was a Man.”

rjjusu: I finally got a copy of My Object All Sublime last week.

SAcademy: Why bother?

AGplusone: I think Jerry is an excellent example!

DavidWrightSr: OK. I admit that there are some of his works that I haven’t read 30 times :-)

Heinleinsmof: It’s definitely one of those you have to laugh because the subject is so worth crying over.

AGplusone: Slavery of sentient animals and you kill them when they wear out, despite their pleas that they can

rjjusu: I’m a completist, and like to make my own judgements, but as usual, RAH was more correct than me….

AGplusone: still work … still think, love, etc.

AGplusone: And they voice those pleas to you in the “King’s English” ….

DenvToday: I

Heinleinsmof: Did you get the magazine version?

DenvToday: oops

Heinleinsmof: With the damon knight illustration?

rjjusu: No, I got the reprint version in Beyond the End of Time

rjjusu: Edited by Frederik Pohl

Heinleinsmof: I have trouble remembering which one of the three “stinkeroos” didn’t get re-collected. I believe it

Heinleinsmof: must have been “Pied Piper.”

AGplusone: Another other stories that must have ‘humor’ to be at least tolerable, depending on your mood?

Heinleinsmof: “The Man Who Travelled in Elephants.”

SAcademy: That’s crying stuff not laughing!

Heinleinsmof: In “The Menace from Earth,” the humorous situations make us like Holly.

AGplusone: The ‘tragic’ in Elephants is not the man dying, but his having lost his wife … pathos, ending in

Heinleinsmof: But the humor gentles the tears.

DenvToday: mof, very good point. I love that story…so beautifully written. But still, the tears always come.

AGplusone: comedy!

AGplusone: Comedy because he dies!

fgherman: I’ve never read the last page without tears

AGplusone: And joins her again …

Heinleinsmof: Comedy deals with unions and reunions.

Heinleinsmof: (I mean comedy as a literary form)

AGplusone: I agree, that one and “The Long Watch” Felicia

Heinleinsmof: But “The Long Watch” is a tragedy — deals with separations.

Heinleinsmof: Same for “Green Hills”

Heinleinsmof: Comic catharsis wouldn’t have done anything for those two stories.

DavidWrightSr: And ‘Tale of the Adopted Daughter’

AGplusone: Something happens in “The Long Watch” particularly that deals with what comedy does, same for “G Hill”

AGplusone: and Tale of the Adopted Daughter

siannon secundus: IWFNE is a separation, at the end ..

rjjusu: Yes, “The Long Watch” is the one that always gets me, when I read it. But it is a great story…

rjjusu: Greater love hath no man ……

TAWN3: What is that David?

AGplusone: Recall the moment in The Long Watch where it doesn’t matter to him …?

OakMan 7111: The three go together somewhere, janni

AGplusone: where he’s at peace with his fate?

siannon secundus: Not sure, that’s what always upsets about it, Jon

TAWN3: How is that like comedy

rjjusu: The balm of gilead – acceptance

TAWN3: ?

AGplusone: Same thing with Rhysling … “This is Rhysling ON Watch, stand by to record”

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think that’s comc — it’s tragic transcendence.

Heinleinsmof: “a man’s a man for a’ that.”

TAWN3: Heroism maybe.

Heinleinsmof: the n

AGplusone: Those two portions are specifically what I was referring to when I mentioned what Jerome did in that

OakMan 7111: If there really is an afterlife, then everything’s a comedy – and the funniest thing is:

Heinleinsmof: noble aspect of gallantry.

OakMan 7111: we don’t know it

AGplusone: bit of the poetry of the Night, …

TAWN3: The Grand illusion

OakMan?

OakMan 7111: I think thats where I’m going, yes

DavidWrightSr: ‘ we don’t know it’ Heinlein said something like that in ‘Beyond this Horizon’

DavidWrightSr: when Mordan and Felix expected to die.

OakMan 7111: I think every original thought I think I have turns out to be a rephrase of RAH

TAWN3: RAH said it a lot, in a lot of places.

DenvToday: Oak, perhaps that’s the “moral” in Job.

AGplusone: Right, Jon … the biggest joke in Jurgen:ACOJ is when the god invents heaven and hell and populates

AGplusone: it with God and Satan, the angels and devils, to satisfy Jurgen’s grandmother.

AGplusone: … and for no, IMI, NO, other reason … whimsy

Heinleinsmof: There’s a good “and that reminds me…” to that story in The Silver Stallion. Donander becomes a god

Heinleinsmof: in the norse pantheon by mistake.

siannon secundus: That’s in Hoag, too, to an extent

Heinleinsmof: Yes. I can’t help but see the Heaven in Job as a combination of Captain Stormfield and Jurgen.

DenvToday: Appropos of absolutely nothing, I watched “The Right Stuff” the other day with friends. The…

AGplusone: Right … the heaven Cabell created wasn’t all that funny … the one Twain did was hilarious.

AGplusone: There’s RAH choosing humor again.

OakMan 7111: I saw some of it as what was preached at Covenant Methodist Church while I was growing up and RAH

DenvToday: …character played by Royal Dano sings The Prayer for Travelers several times when pilots are…

OakMan 7111: saying “be careful what you wish for.”

Heinleinsmof: Much the same kind of humor as in Captain STormfield.

DenvToday: ….killed. I kept thinking of RAH’s addition to the prayer.

Heinleinsmof: It was a wonderful verse addition, wasn’t it.

DenvToday: Indeed!

AGplusone: The humor makes it stick in your mind (it is a wonderful addition) …

AGplusone: Jane, if you’ve read the posts, questioned one thing about Jerome … whether his poetic passages

AGplusone: were serious. anyone have a thought on that?

AGplusone: Here we have a low-brow writer catering to a low-brow audience … what is all that poetry doing in

AGplusone: his book?

AGplusone: Simply Victorian sentimentality?

AGplusone: Anyone?

Heinleinsmof: Partly it was the magazine conventions of the day. Remember this was before low-brow literature real

Heinleinsmof: ly took off.

Heinleinsmof: Pop culture dates from about 1895, with the start of Argosy.

AGplusone: But … Isn’t sticking a florid passage into a prosaic book an attention-getting device, too.

AGplusone: Just as humor is … ”

Heinleinsmof: Well — it is humor, playing with the distinction between naturalistic prose writing and florid poeti

Heinleinsmof: writing.

AGplusone: Jerome didn’t put one in every chapter … some of it is serious, however, I’d maintain.

AGplusone: For example, clearly, that bit about King John signing the Magna Carta … inserted for schoolchildren

Heinleinsmof: CAbell did that — he called it “contrapuntal” writing. And of course, rAH did that, too, in TEFL.

AGplusone: And the example Jane picked, the bit about the worn out pauper mother drowning herself …

siannon secundus: I have to go, ladies and gentlemen – thank you for a fascinating discussion, as always :-)

AGplusone: totally exhausted and unwilling to go herself to the ‘poor house’ …

OakMan 7111: bye jani

siannon secundus: Goodnight, all ..

KultsiKN: See ya, Jani

DenvToday: Bye siannon!

Doc4Kidz: goodnight. I’m going to go, too. Bye, and thanks.

AGplusone: It is pathos, perhaps even approches bathos, but I think he’s seriously concerned about here.

siannon secundus has left the room.

Heinleinsmof: Depends on what you mean by “serious.” It sounds more as though Jerome periodically launched into

Heinleinsmof: set pieces

Doc4Kidz has left the room.

fgherman: g-bye

markjmills has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello

AGplusone: HI, Mark how’s NYC today?

Heinleinsmof: Even though the set piece may be perfectly serious in itself, it produces a humorous effect by contra

Heinleinsmof: st

DenvToday: Hello!

markjmills: Hi, all — missed you in the last month.

AGplusone: Yes, it does, doesn’t it, even more ‘attention-getting’ therefore?

markjmills: Hah — I’m in Florida, soaking up sun…

Heinleinsmof: URK — can you get rid of the gray background, Mark

TAWN3: Bye Jani

fgherman: More like soaking up sunset at this hour

markjmills: Better?

KultsiKN: Bold it.

Heinleinsmof: Better — and would you bold? Thanks

DenvToday: I’ve always found soaking up gin to be more productive :-)

markjmills: Hmmmmm….

markjmills: There we go…

fgherman: That’ll work

markjmills: So what’s on topic — still humour?

Heinleinsmof: Arrrrh! — bite the parrot, maytee

AGplusone: Still humor, Mark …

markjmills: Gin? Someone mention gin?

OakMan 7111: I’m more of a rummy, myself

markjmills: Any port in a storm…

Heinleinsmof: Gin and rummy have been known to go togheter…

DenvToday: Oak, I can certainly respect that.

Heinleinsmof: I sherry your sentiments.

markjmills: Tequila’s more appropriate down here.

OakMan 7111: I wonder which Jani likes, I suppose we canasta.

KultsiKN: Both are known sources of questinable humor.

markjmills: Bad puns get lashes! God ones get other things.

AGplusone: On humor, Mark, what single thing about RAH’s humor sticks in your craw or mind …

OakMan 7111: The only good pun is a dead pun

AGplusone: or we could try going around the room …. [watchout] …

fgherman: I’ll abstain from this

markjmills: Hmmm…I’m rather uncritical of the Master on the humor side — I tend to enjoy him even at his corni

OakMan 7111: “Well, just don’t make a hobbit of it”

markjmills: Ooops…limit on sentences?

KMurphy165 has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Hello KM

fgherman: Hello

KMurphy165: Greetings.

markjmills: Hi

DenvToday: There is one title (short story) that always gives me a belly laugh. Any guesses?

DenvToday: Hi KM!

markjmills: W Also Walk Dogs?

Heinleinsmof: Gentlemen, be seated?

DenvToday: Yes!

OakMan 7111:

TAWN3: Yes

DenvToday: Gold star for mof!

markjmills: That’s a great one.

AGplusone: Gbs? George Bernard Shaw …

DenvToday: mark, also a great title.

AGplusone: Wonder if that was intentional?

Heinleinsmof: Oh, I’m sure it was.

AGplusone: … naw …

AGplusone: Dave Wright (warning was given) what’s the most salient point about RAH’s humor sticks with you?

OakMan 7111: I shall not give in to temptation…I shall not…

markjmills: Wilde said do…

markjmills: Fear No Evil, man!

AGplusone: Randy Jost is up next ….

rjjusu: I thought Yoda said Do or do not, there is no try

TAWN3: Yes, there is lots of humor in that.

DenvToday: rjj, you must remember that Yoda had a man’s hand up his um…back.

fgherman: And Miss Piggy’s voice

rjjusu: Let’s not resurrect that IRS thread …..

AGplusone: Assuming Dave is watering his lawn, you’re up Randy …. :-)

DenvToday: Very true.

AGplusone: Ron is up after Randy …

rjjusu: I think the thing I like most about Heinlein’s humor is its “naturalness” … it doesn’t seem forced

AGplusone: Then Mark, then Jon Ogden …

rjjusu: and it always fits the situation.

AGplusone: By fits the situation, give an example, please …

rjjusu: There are several touching, yet humorous moments in Double Star

rjjusu: Even when Lorenzo is in funny situations, you can sense the man behind the mask in his responses.

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, there is a matter I must take care of, so I take my leave of you. Take care.

rjjusu: The comments about Martians always smelling like Penny’s perfume, etc.

OakMan 7111: Bye Bill

AGplusone: The politcian who figures doing what a politician always does … stop and kiss babies … can’t be

AGplusone: wrong?

Heinleinsmof: Ciao.

TAWN3: Bye Bill

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

rjjusu: CYA Bill

SAcademy: Nite, Bill

AGplusone: ‘staying in character’ so to speak?

rjjusu: I think so, but more than that.

DavidWrightSr: Made you feel part of the family

rjjusu: He is really trying to reconcile who he is, with who he seems.

AGplusone: My dad figured that stimulating my cerebral cortex by causing flow of blood away from my butt …

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: Ignore last. I was trying to describe RAH’s humor. ‘casualness’. Made you part of family

AGplusone: He is … reconciling …

AGplusone: what he admires with what he was, he obviously admired his father and figures he really doesn’t

AGplusone: measure up to dad.

rjjusu: When a politician is representing others, where does the politician

rjjusu: stop and the person begin?

AGplusone: Where he stops being Larry Smith and becomes Bonforte?

AGplusone: Is that a joke in the book … or humor?

rjjusu: Yes, especially if your constituents want one thing, but who you ARE says No

markjmills: Sorry — shoot, phone call, BBS.

AGplusone: see you back soon Mark

OakMan 7111: bye mark

rjjusu: Not sure it is a joke, or just the many layers of excellent writing.

DenvToday: We talked about “contrapuntal” before. That’s one aspect of RAH’s humor I love.

rjjusu: Looks like Denv has received the ‘punt and is starting his run….

AGplusone: Ron, please give it a shot: what sticks out the most for you?

DenvToday: For instance, The Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail in TEFL…

AGplusone: uh-huh … /ga

DenvToday: We have that in contrast to the poignant episodes in the book

DenvToday: Even when Lazarus is at his lowest…close to suiciding…

DenvToday: There’s always a smart-aleck quality lurking just below the surface.

DavidWrightSr: When it was written, Juan’s comment on having to leave his earrings at home was hilarious. …..

DavidWrightSr: Nothing funny today

AGplusone: Much like Zebbie in Number and Harris in 3Men … Zac is funny in “If this Goes on … ”

AGplusone: So is Smitty in Red Planet …

AGplusone: in as serious a matter as hiding their guns from the schoolmaster

rjjusu: Ron, what part of Denver are you in? I tried to send you a private message, but you are unavailable

DenvToday: Really? I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that.

DenvToday: I’

OakMan 7111: Heinlein usually centers his humor around characters that we love. “Tex” is much funnier than

DenvToday: oop

OakMan 7111: Stinky Burke

DenvToday: I’ll fix that.

rjjusu: I just realized that the Education degree that Zeb received may have come from USU

AGplusone: Is there anyone particularly funny in Cat ?

rjjusu: that explains a lot. :-)

DenvToday: I’ve fixed the privacy preferences. Thanks for pointing that out.

DavidWrightSr: Lots of funny in Cat. putting limburger in the ac.

DavidWrightSr: for example.

AGplusone: Besides Marcy and her hemroids … the traffi