Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 06-09-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT The Future World of 2001

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 06-09-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

The Future World of 2001

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi Guys.

SAcademy: Is DSL telephone company or cable?

AGplusone: Hi, Dave … we’re testing an url … phone company

SAcademy: company

AGplusone: verizon.net in my case

geeairmoe2: My brothers have cable modems. They gush with enthusiasm about them.

billdennis2nd: DSL is phone company and many phone companies have decided to back away from installing and offering

SAcademy: Is it really $50 a month?

AGplusone: Yes

SAcademy: Too much

AGplusone: true

billdennis2nd: The URL didn’t work for me

AGplusone: but … the convenience is better

billdennis2nd: Does it have an unnecessary underscore?

AGplusone: what browser are you using

geeairmoe2: Our local version of Time/Warner offers it at $39.95.

ddavitt has entered the room.

billdennis2nd: I am using IExplorer

ddavitt: Hi everyone

AGplusone: that’s nice … we had a promo … at that price. Hi, Jane

billdennis2nd: Hello

geeairmoe2: Hello.

billdennis2nd: I got free installation, two months service at 19.99 a month.

billdennis2nd: Then it goes to $39.99 a month

AGplusone: very nice deal

AGplusone: They had 40 monthly for about a six month period, but recently dropped that

AGplusone: we’re talking about DSL connections, Jane

SAcademy: What does it do specifically?

billdennis2nd: Actually, cable modem is faster

SAcademy: You get online faster. How much faster?

ddavitt: Yes, I don’t know what they are.

AGplusone: Very much greater speed and allows you to use your phone at the same time

billdennis2nd: Provided everyone on your block isn’t already using a cable modem.

ddavitt: Oh, I know now.

AGplusone: I’m getting about seven times the speed of a 56 k modem right now Ginny

maikoshT has entered the room.

ddavitt: It would be handy to unblock the phone but it costs more

AGplusone: which isn’t all that great

AGplusone: but is better

SAcademy: Using this is the only reason I have a telephone!

ddavitt: Can’t afford it; people will have to wait till I’m done and ring me then

SAcademy: I’d throw the phone out otherwise.

billdennis2nd: Lets just say I can bring up the Illustrated Catalog in about five seconds.

AGplusone: I kept telling my wife that was a fringe benefit of being on line … no phone interruptions

ddavitt: Really? I have started to use this to talk to my mum in the UK but I like hearing voices too

billdennis2nd: You know, the one with RAH’s cadet photo at the top

AGplusone: but she wanted to be able to call me while I was on line

AGplusone: I’m finding I cannot send urls in this space we have now with the AIM chat rooms

AGplusone: That is a pain in the butt

billdennis2nd: I can’t see ANYONE using dial up modems in five years. THis is just sooo much better

SAcademy: Where did you get that picture, please?

AGplusone: The cadet photo?

billdennis2nd: I didn’t get it. I saw it on this web page.

SAcademy: Yes.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

ddavitt: David’s company is doing something called M Ergy

OakMan 7111: Hello all

ddavitt: Or something; wireless internet in remote areas

ddavitt: Hi Jon

SAcademy: Good afternoon.

AGplusone: Hi, Jon …

ddavitt: Can log on at 70 mph …on a train. I’m probably getting this all wrong

AGplusone: Okay, it’s the hour. Do we have a start time, anyone?

billdennis2nd: I would send the link, but I can’t paste it in this chat room

AGplusone: Yes … a real pain in the butt.

ddavitt: You go David :-)

AGplusone: http://www.heinleinsociety.org/_Site/Society/BldDrive/SignUp.asp

billdennis2nd: Gee, what is the topic today.

ddavitt: 2001

OakMan 7111: Why we fell behind RAH’s predictions so badly

AGplusone: we’re testing the page, Jon …

ddavitt: Why aren’t we in flying cars

ddavitt: That sort of thing

billdennis2nd: I’m gonna sign up later on david. I can’t believe I never did before.

billdennis2nd: Oh, I don’t think we fell behind all that much.

AGplusone: The part of the novel I found interesting was something I’d seen before

AGplusone: the predictions of which way my own town would develop

billdennis2nd: Didn’t RAh predict that traffic on the highways would be regulated by computer?

OakMan 7111: me, too. I thgink it’s the pic that’s messing up Netscape

ddavitt: LA you mean?

ddavitt: The smog goes doesn’t it?

AGplusone: I enjoyed the descriptions made 30 years ago

ddavitt: Is that still a problem now?

AGplusone: Not too serious, certainly not as serious as they were around 1955

AGplusone: we rarely have alerts that amount to much

AGplusone: and he was correct about the town developing westward toward the beach towns

billdennis2nd: There are several predictions of his that I believe (just off the top of my head) that WOULD have

ddavitt: Less coal fires? Or didn’t you have them in sunny LA?

billdennis2nd: come true had there been political will to implement

ddavitt: That’s what made our peasoupers in London

AGplusone: they cut out trash incinerators and almost all coal burning

billdennis2nd: I remember within the past couple of years a report on TV ….

AGplusone: actually all of it, plus oil … and went to natural gas

billdennis2nd: About a system that allowed cars to drive at top speed down the highway

AGplusone: saying what, Bill …

billdennis2nd: within a few feet of each other

billdennis2nd: It was supposed to prevent congestion and accidents

billdennis2nd: They showed five cars whipping down the row in perfect formation

OakMan 7111: IIRC, it required sensors in the pavement as well as in the car

AGplusone: They keep edging that way … but getting folk to surrender control would be a big step

billdennis2nd: I don’t think so, OakMan

billdennis2nd: Yes! It is all psychological

AGplusone: Remember in Methuselah’s Children, how they have an option for local control?

OakMan 7111: Bill, I’m Jon Ogden

billdennis2nd: People wouldn’t FEEL safe

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron

billdennis2nd: hello

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody!

billdennis2nd: I recognize almost everybody ….

OakMan 7111: Hello Ron

AGplusone: When Mary is driving with Laz she goes back to local control, which means her own control?

DenvToday: Hello!

ddavitt: Hi Ron afj

ddavitt: afk

AGplusone: We all, sometimes, use a form of what may be coming, “cruise control” for highway driving …

AGplusone: how do we feel when we do that?

OakMan 7111: I wouldn’t feel safe if someone else had a local control option…

billdennis2nd: I am going to have to leave soon. This program is almost done downloading.

Dehede03 has entered the room.

billdennis2nd: bye

DenvToday: Hello Dehede

OakMan 7111: bye

billdennis2nd has left the room.

Dehede03: Howdy folks.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron (dehehe) meet Ron (DenvToday) … :-)

AGplusone: “de”

DenvToday: Nice to meet you!

Dehede03: Ms Academic how are you today. Howdy Ron and Dave

DavidWrightSr: Everyone, Please check Bold button.

SAcademy: Just fine, thanks.

AGplusone: Jane, btw, what did you all decide about next chat subject.

AGplusone: on, okay?

billdennis2nd has entered the room.

billdennis2nd has left the room.

ddavitt: dunno

Dehede03: On

ddavitt: baby on knee alert

ddavitt: hang on

ddavitt: Any luck with Robert Crais Dave?

Dehede03: A thought has been running through my mind; but I don’t know how we could ever make it a topic

DavidWrightSr: Sorry. I’ve not had a chance to check with him yet. Promise to do so today or tomorrow

AGplusone: What’s that, Ron?

ddavitt: Ohterwise we can move up the racism chat; who proposed that one?

ddavitt: ga Ron

AGplusone: time for suggestions is now …

DenvToday: I had a thought once. I think it was 1994. I lied down and it passed.

ddavitt: What about the one that came up in the Thursday chat; overlaps with other things.

ddavitt: IE; lots of us like cats, Buffy, detective novels….

ddavitt: what’s the common factor

Dehede03: I was noticing the auto biographical comments


Dehede03: On page 13 of TEFL he has his favorite drink

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Sean!

AGplusone: Manhattans?

Gaeltachta: G’Day Everyone….. Hi Jane

AGplusone: Hi, Sean

Dehede03: Brandy Manhatten.

Dehede03: But how do you turn those scattered comments into a subject

DenvToday: Hello!

AGplusone: It would be hard to draw conclusions as to what were autobiographical, what weren’t

SAcademy: Ron, that was Robert’s favorite!

ddavitt: What do you want to do with them exactly?

ddavitt: Build up a picture of favourites?

Dehede03: They would make a darn fine treasure hunt though

Dehede03: I don’t know Jane

ddavitt: certainly would.

Dehede03: Interesting as all get out

Dehede03: But what do you do with them

OakMan 7111: I’d love to do a collection page for ‘em at THS.org…

Dehede03: Well I thought of that Oakman but they turn into a project to give to someone else

AGplusone: We might try tieing them into the biographical sketch, assuming everyone can find it on line.

SAcademy: collection of what? Drinks? I’ve been trying to get Denis in

AGplusone: The little glimpses of what may have been photos from his life …

Dehede03: I commemorated his death by donating blood this year

ddavitt: I don’t see him SA

AGplusone: like the little boy out in back yard who looks at Haley’s comet

Dehede03: Right

Dehede03: So I was thinking of doing one of his favorite feasts for his birthday.

geeairmoe2: news://news.sff.net/sff.people.gwilliam

ddavitt: Well, Tim Morgan and I are tracking down all the dedication people so expect cries for help soon.

geeairmoe2: I posted the link David wants us to check out on my newsgroup.

ddavitt: That should be fun; looking at why those particular people got that particular book

Dehede03: Oh yes,

Dehede03: good idea

SAcademy: Believe it or not, I just got “The group is invalid” from AOL

ddavitt: Ginny is our secret weapon if we get totally stuck.

AGplusone: Who, btw, are the folk to whom the dedications in Door Into Summer refers, Ginny?

Dehede03: Yes, but we don’t want to come up with a project for Ginny to do.

SAcademy: What names?

ddavitt: No; we are determined to do as much of it ourselves as possible

SAcademy: I can’t remember.

Gaeltachta: A.P. and Phyllis Mick and Annette Aelurophiles All

AGplusone: “A.P. and Phyllis, Mick and Annette, Aelurophiles all.”

ddavitt: A.P and Phyllis, Mick and Annete

ddavitt: Beat me

AGplusone: And

DJedPar has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

Dehede03: Yes, I have wondered about them in many books

AGplusone: Sean got the capital “A” in All correct.

OakMan 7111: hello DJ

AGplusone: Hi, DJedPar

SAcademy: AP is William A. P. White, sometimes Anthony Boucher. Phyllis is his wife writes mysteries.

Dehede03: Hello, DJ

Gaeltachta: Ha!

DJedPar: Hi, finally made it.

ddavitt: She is P D james isn’t she?

[Editors Note: This is false. Boucher was married to Phyllis Price; P(hyllis).D. James was married to Dr. Connor Bantry White]

AGplusone: And an aelurophile is?

SAcademy: Good for you Denis.

DavidWrightSr: Djepar is Denis.

ddavitt: Cat lover!

AGplusone: Hi, Denis, welcome

DJedPar: Among other things

SAcademy: Maybe P. D. James. I’m not sure abaout that.

ddavitt: I think she is..but I will check. Thanks! That’s great. Another one down

AGplusone: What did A.P.White do in real life, when he wasn’t writing?

ddavitt: Rephrase that!

ddavitt: It sounds insulting :-)

AGplusone: :-P

ddavitt: As if writing isn’t a real job

AGplusone: note the little tongue sticking out

SAcademy: Rocket to the Morgue, and other mysteries. He edited F&SF magazine.

ddavitt: He’s the one who did Rocket To The Morgue

ddavitt: GMTA

SAcademy: Along with Mick MacComas.

ddavitt: The Mick from the dedication?

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

Dehede03: Believe it or not I bought Rocket….. a few years back off the shelf.

DavidWrightSr: Wasn’t he the one that told Robert early on that you never stopped being a writer?

ddavitt: Yes.

SAcademy: Yes, that would be he.

ddavitt: I got Rocket a few months back; fun!

Gaeltachta: Same here……

AGplusone: What I’m wondering about is the role models for the personalities of

Dehede03: Still in print.

AGplusone: John and Jenny Sutton

SAcademy: It’s where Gifford’s press name comes from.

ddavitt: is it? mine was used

ddavitt: that’s right

Gaeltachta: I bought a *new* copy…….

Dehede03: Wasn’t one book dedicated to “Sarge?”

AGplusone: were the Bouchers at all like the “Suttons” in personality — not asking about nudism

ddavitt: Yes; Starship

SAcademy: Starshhip Troopers I think was dedicated to Sarge.

Dehede03: Thanks Jane

ddavitt: I have a list by me with them all

AGplusone: (or the “Whites” … ?)

Dehede03: and SAcademy

Gaeltachta: “Sarge” Arthur George Smith

AGplusone: [John and Jenny, of course, being the characters in the story into whose backyard, so to speak, Dan

AGplusone: drops in]

ddavitt: Yes…that was funny; their being nude really threw him

ddavitt: threw

ddavitt: He didn’t know if he’d made it back to 1970 or not

Dehede03: Oops, I had thought John and Jenny were RAH & Ginny

ddavitt: nice twist

AGplusone: :-)

OakMan 7111: another example of a heinlein hero leraning that no every one did things the way he did

Dehede03: Sorry

AGplusone: RAH making himself a Lawyer? Good Lord!

DavidWrightSr: John was a lawyer!!

ddavitt: They didn’t feel like that

ddavitt: They were nice but ordinary

Dehede03: the mind of John felt incisive

DenvToday: Horrible thought. Only thing worse would be a literary critic.

DavidWrightSr: Of course, didn’t you know? All of RAH’s characters were himself :-D

Gaeltachta: They seemed like nice people…….. for nudists! j/k

ddavitt: I have to go eat. I will stay online. brb

AGplusone: come back … we need to decide on a topic

AGplusone: we once had a topic–lawyers in Heinlein–is it time for that again?

DenvToday: I’ve been on a “juvenile” binge this week. Citizen of the Galaxy, Starman Jones, The Rolling Stones.

DenvToday: All since Monday.

AGplusone: Miles vs. Sutton … etc. …

OakMan 7111: I envy you Ron

Dehede03: And I am re-reading my all time favorite, TEFL

DenvToday: I fell in love with Hazel Stone all over again.

Dehede03: I haven’t plumbed that one’s depth yet.

DavidWrightSr: I’m 999 pages throught the German version of ‘The Past Through Tomorrow’ only 100 or so to go

AGplusone: There’s another thing in Door Into Summer that I always loved …

AGplusone: the figure of the great failed scientist … Tesla, I really believe

AGplusone: considering that he really conducted all those experiments in Colorado

Dehede03: BRB – my lunch of bean soup has turned vicious

AGplusone: do we have any ‘great failed scientist’ figures today … the cold fisson or fusion guys, for example?

DavidWrightSr: You mean that the inventor of the time machine was supposed to be based on Tesla?

AGplusone: I always thought so, perhaps, Dave

DavidWrightSr: Interesting.

AGplusone: What great failed scientific discoveries do we have today that looked promising in 1970?

AGplusone: Are there any?

Gaeltachta: Scientists don’t seem as famous nowadays………

DenvToday: We’re still working on fusion–cold or otherwise.

AGplusone: that is true, Sean …

Dehede03: It isn’t a great one, but the channel wing airplane

DJedPar: Ginny, do you have any idea who Jenny was based on?

Gaeltachta: So if they fail…… no one knows……

Dehede03: We have the volantor 400 testing this summer after years of experimentation.

AGplusone: is the channel wing the one that is based on sunpower and flies effectively as long as there’s sun

DavidWrightSr: Well, we can now dictate and have a machine print it out.

AGplusone: shinning down on it

AGplusone: or something else, Ron?

Dehede03: No the channel wing had a C shaped wing wrapping around the bottom half of the prop

DavidWrightSr: So ‘Dictation Daisy’ is real.

AGplusone: It is … I’ve been trying IBMs ViaVoice lately

AGplusone: and the Drafting Dan is just a program now

Dehede03: But the Volantor 400, if successful will totally change transportation

SAcademy: I am afraid I don’t have any idea who Jenny was based on.

AGplusone: Nice portrait — Jenny’s character.

DJedPar: 8-)

AGplusone: :-D

DavidWrightSr: Amused at Dan for never having put his invention to use for himself.

AGplusone: Yes …

DavidWrightSr: As I mentioned Thursday, the remote teller machine is now a reality.

AGplusone: It’s them trees out thar, kain’t hardly see the forest.

AGplusone: The voder … Stephen Hawking!

Dehede03: Dave you forgot to add “no how.”

DJedPar: Aren’t the current CAD drafting programs, Drafting Dan?

AGplusone: Yes, that’s what I thought I referred to …

Dehede03: In a sense but wasn’t drafting dan mechanical

AGplusone: except he didn’t anticipate the “mouse” ….

Dehede03: CAD is strictly a piece of software

Gaeltachta: Cars were mentioned …. any scientific development there?

DJedPar: Maybe he disliked rats!

AGplusone: perhaps … maybe Pixel ate all the mice that showed up

DavidWrightSr: in 1955, the paradigm of computers still hadn’t taken hold, so mechanical was the normal way to think

AGplusone: Or Pete!!!!

Gaeltachta: Both in 1970 and 2001….

DJedPar: ;-)

Dehede03: But consider that the desktop came around 1980 and in NOB he had a pretty good representation

AGplusone: Which of RAH’s cats was most like Pete, Ginny? Did he ever train one to travel

DenvToday: Yet to be invented: sausage, black olive and pepperoni pizza for under 500 calories.

AGplusone: in a bag, or drink ginger ale?

AGplusone: Or know one …. ?

AGplusone: that did

SAcademy: Pete was our Pixie–Blassingame Pixilated Arroyo

AGplusone: Every once in a while, someone says Door would be the easier one of his novels

DenvToday: Wonderful name. I wish mine was as impressive.

AGplusone: to make a movie, but I keep thinking, how would you get a cat to play Pete.

DenvToday: Computer Graphics for Pete.

DJedPar: Ask Snowy. He do it in a minute.

SAcademy: Oh, they were all impressive. We also had Taffrail Lord Plusbottom

AGplusone: Have to have a lot of takes to get “Pete’s finest hour!” …

DenvToday: lol

AGplusone: and lots of dead extras for Belle and Miles

SAcademy: Anyone remember the Pirate?

Dehede03: With the special effects we have today Pete’s finest hour might not be too tough.

DenvToday: Eliot would have been impressed by that name!

AGplusone: Some how Pete always put me in mind of a Bobcat … j/k

Dehede03: SA, I don’t remember the pirate but that tickles my memory.

AGplusone: Pirate is the one in Puppet Masters

DavidWrightSr: Jane and David. I’m going to have to leave for a while. I have two machines recording, but…

AGplusone: right

DavidWrightSr: should you see both of us drop out, could you please record and send me the log.

AGplusone: ‘kay, Dave

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. Try to get back soon.

AGplusone: The thing we don’t have … is supercats! Now if Andre Norton had ever met Robert, maybe they could

AGplusone: have bred a species … Pete, plus her genetically enhanced cats, a la Star Man’s Son …

DJedPar: Speaking of cats, does anyone else think the Heinlein crater on Mars looks like Taffy?

Dehede03: Isn’t it strange that we have superintelligent talking mules & dogs in SF but not cats.

OakMan 7111: Pride of Chanur

AGplusone: except for Norton’s ones …

Dehede03: Pride of chanur has them OM??

Dehede03: Great

DenvToday: Ron, I think it’s because most cats would consider having human intellect a comedown.

AGplusone: maybe we feel that a superintelligent cat would take over the world and do away with us?

OakMan 7111: Nope they’d keep us around to handle refrigerator doors

Dehede03: There are two Rons here. May I be Dee??

DenvToday: Of course.

AGplusone: Or have us make refrigerator doors they can open easier than they already do?

OakMan 7111: I suspect that they >like< having us open doors

AGplusone: Put a little piece of wood on the bottom of the door they can hook their claws into …

DJedPar: There’s an idea – a cat door for the fridge.

AGplusone: problem is you’d have to make the door very light so they can get out when they find the light doesn’t

Dehede03: Right and make getting under the sink easier for toddlers

AGplusone: stay on.

Dehede03: LOL

DenvToday: A cat with opposable thumbs would rule the world in short order.

Dehede03: That sounds like Little Fuzzy

AGplusone: Not sure they don’t have opposable thumbs already … I’ve watched mine open wooden doors into rooms

AGplusone: by hooking his claw underneath

AGplusone: and pulling

AGplusone: so long as the latch isn’t fully caught he can do it

SAcademy: Does Bob do that?

OakMan 7111: I wonder if the ability to figure out the environment of man is unique to cats and dogs

AGplusone: Yes, all the time

Dehede03: If we did a feast for RAH’s birthday what should be the menu.

AGplusone: I can’t keep him in a room

OakMan 7111: or if other species could do it, if we made pets of them

Gaeltachta: These cat inventions go against the master-servant relationship….

AGplusone: which makes it interesting when someone visits with a dog

Gaeltachta: Cats don’t *wan’t* these tasks….

AGplusone: because he is very territorial

OakMan 7111: I agree Sean

SAcademy: I can keep Snowy in a room by staying there myself.

DenvToday: “Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.” – RAH

Gaeltachta: Yes…. that’s the quote!

Dehede03: Pretty girls and butterflys……..

AGplusone: Odd, in Summer, they experimented with cats …

AGplusone: with cold sleep.

AGplusone: Didn’t think they did a lot of that.

OakMan 7111: In Aliens, Ripley saves the cat and takes it into cold sleep with her

Gaeltachta: The cat in _Alien_ “Jonesy”….

OakMan 7111: gmta

SAcademy: They do use cats in psychology experiments!

DenvToday: Starcat Jones?

Gaeltachta: :-)

AGplusone: wonder what position PETA (yuck) takes on cats being used. I’ve heard they think them slaves and best

AGplusone: subjects for extinction.

DJedPar: The Aliens cat looked like Pixel

AGplusone: At least that’s what they say when they demand license fees and leash laws for them

OakMan 7111: Peta wants leash laws???

AGplusone: Yeah, and $300 license fees for unspayed cats.

DenvToday: Oak, PETA is in favor of anything–as long as it’s mandatory.

AGplusone: [that fortunately went no where before the LA City Council a year ago]

OakMan 7111: Amazing. there seems to be no good idea that cannot be made bad by putting it into

DenvToday: I’d be in favor of a $300 fee for unspayed PETA memebers.

OakMan 7111: the hands of a few dogmatics

Dehede03: The councilmen wanted to stay in office?

AGplusone: I think so …

AGplusone: Denv: LOL

DenvToday: Dogmatics and catmatics

Gaeltachta: Was it a cat I saw?

OakMan 7111: No these seem more like Ass-mathics

OakMan 7111: gee, it wasn’t that bad a pun…

DenvToday: lol It was quite good!

AGplusone: It’s odd, another thing about prediction … can we say anything about his ever making

AGplusone: a true ‘political’ prediction about form of government that wasn’t a mind experiment?

AGplusone: a la, Starship Troopers, or Moon Is A Harsh Mistress?

DJedPar: That’s a tough question.

AGplusone: It seems he made a lot of examples, good and bad …

DenvToday: Thank goodness Rev. Scudder hasn’t taken power–yet.

AGplusone: the abbreviated administrative process in Star Beast for example

AGplusone: as a good one.

SAcademy: We both predicted the 1964 election, and got out of the country in time.

OakMan 7111: Our President’s favorite philospher was Jesus, so we’re getting there

AGplusone: “Do unto others … ”

SAcademy: I didn’t like either one., so I didn’t vote.

AGplusone: can we think of other ‘good predictions’ made from any of the books?

AGplusone: examplars of improvements?

Dehede03: Looks like the sun screen is coming along

SAcademy: Depends on what you call improvements.

AGplusone: The Troopers’ mandated ‘responsibility’ …

DenvToday: TEFL starts with the perfect form of government–a benevolent dictatorship tempered…

DJedPar: The water bed?

DenvToday: …by the occasional assassination.

AGplusone: sorta tough on the glorious leader, of course ….

OakMan 7111: Keeps him on his toes

DenvToday: AG, it keeps politicians humble.

Dehede03: Gotta go guys, time for dinner.

OakMan 7111: bye de

AGplusone: maybe what goes on today in news reporting of private lives is ‘an occasional assassination’

SAcademy: Bye Ron

DenvToday: Bye Dee.

Dehede03: Bye folks.

Dehede03 has left the room.

SAcademy: He really slammed the door, didn’t he?

DenvToday: lol

AGplusone: the business about the two Bush girls a form of close miss to keep the benevolent dictator’s mind on

AGplusone: something besides ‘bidness’? :-)

DJedPar: :-D

AGplusone: poor kids

OakMan 7111: a couple of folks who could have embaressed Clinton ended up dead


DJedPar: Is that surprising?

DenvToday: The problem with press “assassinations” is that the scoundrels (such as Clinton) ignore it, and the..

SAcademy: Quite a few of them if you read Drudge!

DenvToday: …good ones (such as …um..uh…) won’t run because of it.

AGplusone: do you really think they ignore it, Ron … ?

AGplusone: I’d think it wears them down.

DenvToday: David, perhaps not ignore. But a Clinton simply can’t be embarrassed.

SAcademy: LOL

AGplusone: keeps them from really getting into a serious malignant dictatorship

AGplusone: maybe

DenvToday: Actually, I did think of a good politician. Barry Goldwater. To a lesser extent, Reagan.

ddavitt: I’m back and all full of lime and cilantro salmon in pitta bread.

DenvToday: Yum!

ddavitt: The Bush girls makes me laugh; they’re 19!

DJedPar: Bring me some, please.

OakMan 7111: Maybe, we’ll see if Hillary tries to continue the reign of the royal family

ddavitt: Legal age is 18 in UK so i can’t get worked up over it

AGplusone: I thought it was sixteen

ddavitt: All gone.:-(

ddavitt: No; that’s sex.

DenvToday: Oak, scoundrels always try. What’s depressing is that the mob allows them to do it.

ddavitt: Logic/ We don’t need no stinkin’ logic…

DenvToday: Bye the mob, I mean the poplulace, not Don Corleone. Although Hillary wouldn’t be above it.

ddavitt: Can be a married and/or a mother but can’t drink or vote

AGplusone: Seems to me, if a president doesn’t attact assassination attempts, Drudge type even, then

AGplusone: he’s not doing enough to bother with.

AGplusone: ‘tother side of the society becoming inbred

OakMan 7111: Or they’re more worried about the Veep

AGplusone: [there’s that too]

ddavitt: Are you all done on the topic then? Or is this just the natural drift towards politics? :-)

DenvToday: Jane, I’ve been amused by the way the American media are SHOCKED that 19-year-old college…

ddavitt: And alcohol…and food….

DenvToday: …students try to order liquor.

AGplusone: No, we’re talking about political predictions, Jane … what ones did RAH make?

ddavitt: Heh:-)

ddavitt: I was in pubs from about 17.

AGplusone: politics doesn’t play much of a role in Door Into Summer, why is dat?

SAcademy: So was I Jane.

ddavitt: made an idiot of myself, got a few hangovers, learned my lesson

OakMan 7111: As if there weren’t any in the future

AGplusone: If it’s his most predictive novel, why didn’t he predict political changes?

ddavitt: Too touchy

ddavitt: Or realised that they might be unrecognisable

AGplusone: maybe they don’t really matter enough to bother with … you suffer politics IRL

OakMan 7111: Or his editors took them out?

Gaeltachta: I think his economics lesson was…… expect the unexpected…..

ddavitt: Or just not part of Dan’ s POV; he was an inventor and quite an intovert

ddavitt: introvert

AGplusone: if they bomb Sandia, if you’re upwind, then live goes on

AGplusone: life

ddavitt: It’s his take on it, not an overview

SAcademy: Have to learn sometime.

ddavitt: Oh yes.

AGplusone: The ‘changes’ occur because of what? An international political event … a war?

ddavitt: One thing about Door that provokes some comment on afh is the atitude towards spaying cats.

OakMan 7111: What about the future of Friday – seems like that’s where we’re headed, sometimes

ddavitt: Did Mr heinlein change his views on that at al?

AGplusone: that’s true

ddavitt: It’s so necessary now, with the humane societies full and feral cats on the rise

AGplusone: one way we’ll be governed is ‘divide and conquer’ …

OakMan 7111: Microsoft versus AOL?

ddavitt: I felt a pang when we had our two done but the Humane society insist when you adopt

AGplusone: California vs. Texas will leave it open for that

AGplusone: by-n-by

DenvToday: Jane, I’m sure your cats are very happy.

ddavitt: Belle was made to seem a villain for wanting to have Pete fixed..

OakMan 7111: Presumably, CA is trying to get Alaska to ally with it, to insure sufficient energy?

DJedPar: Belle was an archvillain!

AGplusone: governments will matter less and less, because there will be a break in the connection and …

ddavitt: Wel, I don’t know but I don’t want them making kittens that end up where we rescue them from

OakMan 7111: Belle would have enjoyed watching Pete get fixed

AGplusone: confusion and government won’t matter

ddavitt: Our friend is a vet who goes there each month to put down the ones that noone chose; harrowing job

DJedPar: The bitch!

ddavitt: She had bad motives

ddavitt: But spaying/neutering isn’t evil

DenvToday: IMHO, RAH was against anything that robbed the individual of his/her nature. That would include…

DenvToday: …fixing, I think.

AGplusone: Do feral cats really do anything that matters, except keep you awake nights in your back alley?

ddavitt: Sure..but it’s needed.

OakMan 7111: And Belle was using Pete as a standin for Dan.

ddavitt: They die.

OakMan 7111: Ferals die quite sadly

ddavitt: They live hungry and unloved.

DJedPar: In farmland they freeze to death on the road.

AGplusone: well, so too do all living things

OakMan 7111: But Cats are different, david

AGplusone: including human beans

ddavitt: Well, all our cats but one have been fixed.

Gaeltachta: Feral cats here kill native animals…….

AGplusone: how do we know they die any more sadly than Bob will die, pampered and fat?

ddavitt: I think they have had longer lives, safer lives. As a ‘parent’, it’s a choice I made

AGplusone: Bob kills native animals …

AGplusone: haven’t had hummingbirds since we got him

DenvToday: Jane, I’m sure you made the right choice.

AGplusone: nesting, anyway

DJedPar: That’s true about living longer.

ddavitt: Mac brought in abird and a chipmunk today. He is on a killing spree

Gaeltachta: Yeah….. so does Rebel…… but not as many……

OakMan 7111: David, pets animals are not meant to be abandoned

AGplusone: I agree

AGplusone: but, assume they’ve been abandoned, what difference does it make that they are around

DenvToday: Oak, many are. A friend of mine runs an animal shelter in CA. People abandon their pets in the…

ddavitt: It’s nature…but so am I so if I can I rescue them.

DenvToday: …mountains when they’re tired of them.

OakMan 7111: But we cannot, litterally cannot, make pets of the number of cats that can be born each year

AGplusone: agree … and we never did …

AGplusone: been feral cats since the dawn of time

OakMan 7111: I used to go with a group to the UMASS dorms 3 days after the end of the school year

AGplusone: who do they bother except people who think their sleep is being interrupted

OakMan 7111: We usually found about a dozen cats left with a bowl of water to last them the summer

DenvToday: However, the same holds true about deer hunting. PETA types do their best to obstruct hunting, but..

ddavitt: david, that isn’t a factor; I’ve never been disturbed by them, at night

OakMan 7111: Their pai bothers me, David.

DenvToday: …thousands of deer freeze and starve to death during out winter.

OakMan 7111: pain

ddavitt: I just hate to see them half starved and scared

DenvToday: our winter, that is.

AGplusone: bothers me too, yet it’s their life …

ddavitt: Plus, in Canada we have rabies

AGplusone: get rabid squirrels here

ddavitt: Which makes them a potential danger to humans

OakMan 7111: Ron, I agree. I have some concerns about Hunters culling the best instead of the worst

ddavitt: or our pet cats

AGplusone: if they’re rabid they kill off the squirrels in the parks by poison

OakMan 7111: but other than that, the herds must be culled

SAcademy: College kids would take cats out to the country and abandon them there.

DenvToday: Oak, I agree.

ddavitt: Scum!

AGplusone: haven’t got around to spaying squirrels yet

ddavitt: You have to do what you can david.

DenvToday: David, that’s why God invented cars.

AGplusone: … at least I think they haven’t …

OakMan 7111: They’re trying to chemically spay the Beaver in western mass

AGplusone: probably be spraying them with oral contraceptives eventually

DenvToday: Oak, you might want to rephrase that. lol

AGplusone: really?

ddavitt: For me, that means not adding to the cat population if the resultant kittens will be killed

OakMan 7111: the swimming flattailed rodents population?

AGplusone: well, that’s your responsibility, Jane … but why spay them?

DenvToday: much better. rofl

ddavitt: I wouldn’t have had babies if i thought they would be born to hunger and pain.

AGplusone: why don’t you just get them the pill, or inplants

ddavitt: I don’t like to keep cats in.

ddavitt: If they go out, they will get pregnant/impregnate others

ddavitt: fact of life

DJedPar: They live a lot longer if they stay in.

AGplusone: So will your daughters

OakMan 7111: Born to Die is not something I would wish on any member of a species that had the

ddavitt: Tho here in canda, cats are kept in lots more than UK; i get barbed comments

DJedPar: Ditto.

OakMan 7111: special agreement we’ve made with dogs and cats

DenvToday: Farnham’s Freehold. Slaves were fixed.

AGplusone: where did the dog and the cat sign up for that?

ddavitt: You are anthromprhosizing

OakMan 7111: Want Kipling’s theory?

ddavitt: spelling..but you know what I mean

AGplusone: sure ….

SAcademy: Yes, please.

OakMan 7111: It was warmer and they got fed

ddavitt: cat Who walks…

ddavitt: Good story

AGplusone: Well, next time my neighbor gets hungry I can feed him and then spay him too?

DenvToday: SA, as I mentioned before, I reread The Rolling Stones this week. Did David Gerrold every…

OakMan 7111: But the Dog agreed to do whatever man wanted – the Cat couldn’t accept slavery – he wanted a partners

OakMan 7111: hip

DenvToday: ever, that is…ever give RAH credit for Tribbles?

OakMan 7111: damn AOL for their new typing limits

DenvToday: I agree Oak. grrrr

ddavitt: I thought he did and heinlein said he had the plot from a story about pigs?

OakMan 7111: I may create a front end for IM that parses out long lines into a series of acceptable ones

AGplusone: which I’m willing to give him (a partnership) … Bob wandered into my back yard one day and said, “Hi

ddavitt: That would be good

AGplusone: I’m willing to live here as long as you feed me.”

SAcademy: Yes, Jane, “Pigs is pigs” by Ellis Parker Butler.

AGplusone: In return for which, I’ll rule you every day.

SAcademy: It’s a howlingly funny story.

OakMan 7111: And you were honored?

ddavitt: That’s because you’re a man; I”M head cat in our house:-)

OakMan 7111: ROFL

AGplusone: Sure. And I’ll put up with a little spraying around the house, if I catch him, I’ll put him outside.

ddavitt: Spraying isn’t fun. It’s hard to clean up

AGplusone: I know where my wife keeps the amonia under the sink.

AGplusone: Been there, done that.

ddavitt: No!

ddavitt: Bleach is the same smell as they make; they spray more, thinking it’s a rival

ddavitt: Use something non ammonia

AGplusone: bleach is different than ammonia

ddavitt: Well, ammonia then

SAcademy: Bleach and ammonia are quite different!

ddavitt: David is lying on the floor lecturing me about chemicals now

ddavitt: While he plays with Lauren. I am chastened

AGplusone: soap works well

ddavitt: But it’s still the case about the smell

AGplusone: so …

AGplusone: I smell

ddavitt: I read it when our cats in UK were weeing all over the place.

ddavitt: Only cats we ever had who did that.

AGplusone: I submit that spraying and howling away in the night is insufficient reason to alter cats

ddavitt: It is. I agree.

ddavitt: That’s not why i do it.

SAcademy: Robert thought so.

ddavitt: But maybe that’s enough on this? Agree to differ?

AGplusone: yes, but too many use the poor dying kittens as an excuse …

OakMan 7111: David, I think you should see if you can find a vet anywhere who will tell you that cats

AGplusone: most of them have never seen a starving kitten

ddavitt: No excuse; I’ve seen them

OakMan 7111: should not be spayed

AGplusone: don’t care what the vet says

AGplusone: he makes money catering to what his clients want

DJedPar: That vet will be gard to find.

ddavitt: i move a subject change.

DJedPar: Hard

OakMan 7111: Okay, then we are talking your belief system and we need to change the subject

ddavitt: At least to sort out next topic

AGplusone: but that is a belief system encompassed in Door

DJedPar: Great idea

ddavitt: SA; do you have a topic you’d like to see us discuss?

AGplusone: Last thought: is it possibly an allegory?

SAcademy: I can’t think of one now.

DJedPar: Please?

ddavitt: If you ever do…

OakMan 7111: Okay, you’re right – there are also suggestions in some RAH that Lawyers are

ddavitt: we will give it priority

OakMan 7111: ….

ddavitt: Could be AG; Dan thought so.

ddavitt: Might be warning that Belle is not all she seems

OakMan 7111: but I think there are some good lawyers and some good reasons to encouraging birth control among our

OakMan 7111: pets

ddavitt: Funny; I had to look this up

ddavitt: He says she remembers Roosevelt being President

Gaeltachta: My cat Rebel was “altered” quite early….. but still lives up to his name….

ddavitt: And so may be older than 23ish

ddavitt: I had to check this

ddavitt: But it just fits

AGplusone: Maybe Belle is the “Big Nanny” we’ve all come to love and accept? ;-)

Gaeltachta: He follows me 500 meters up the road….. then stops…….

ddavitt: I wondered if it was a different time line

Gaeltachta: ….. a big dog lives near there…….

ddavitt: She would have been about 3

ddavitt: Sometimes hard to remember how old some of the books are; they seems so fresh

DJedPar: Timeless books, all of them.

ddavitt: But Door is 44 years old!

AGplusone: It’s 2001. Door is fresh as yesterday. Dan just came through.

AGplusone: the second time

ddavitt: Wow…and we are where he cold slept to; that’s why i suggested this topic.

ddavitt: Seemed so interesting!

DJedPar: Good topic.

ddavitt: So; who wants now and who wants dan’s version?

OakMan 7111: I want a space station. I was promised a space station by 2001

ddavitt: Nearly got one

Gaeltachta: I remember reading Door in the 70’s…… Wondering about 2001….

ddavitt: I want a holiday on the moon

ddavitt: Me too; late 1970’s

AGplusone: I want a robot to do house cleaning!

OakMan 7111: I want to retire to the moon and live to be 300

ddavitt: See you there:-)

ddavitt: Watch me fly in the Bats Cave

DJedPar: I want Friday to be my friend.

OakMan 7111: You bet – we’ll dance a waltz in Zero G

AGplusone: … just clean the house.

SAcademy: You probably wouldn’t like living to be 300. Life gets tiring.

AGplusone: So I can do ‘other things’!

ddavitt: I’ll pack my dancing shoes

Gaeltachta: I wanna make fun of “ground-hogs”……

ddavitt: So lazarus found out…

SAcademy: Ice skates! Imagine the jumps!

ddavitt: But I would like a bit longer than the current span if i could be healthy at the same time

ddavitt: Good cross post from a skating group once on afh Ginny

ddavitt: They read the Puddin story about skating

OakMan 7111: I’m just wondering if in low g, my hair will stop thinning out

ddavitt: We had a thread about skating on the moon; would the ice float away

SAcademy: Really? Jane tell me about it? Please

ddavitt: Would it hold an edge

ddavitt: I will look it up on Google for you

ddavitt: Thye were very nice people

Gaeltachta: On Mars?…….

ddavitt: What cross posters should be; they came, asked a question, chatted and left

Gaeltachta: Or the Moon?……. I can’t remember?

ddavitt: It was about 2 years ago so i can’t recall all details

ddavitt: AG?

ddavitt: Do you?

SAcademy: If you can find it Jane, I’d like to read it.

ddavitt: I will; Google is up now and goes back to 1995

SAcademy: I didn’t know.

Gaeltachta: I remember talk about skating in Red Planet….. whether that was possible or not? Different thread?

DJedPar: Get on skates in low G and you won’t worry about hair.

SAcademy: Figure skating–not speed stuff.

ddavitt: It may have been Sean; i started that one IIRC

Gaeltachta: Yeah…. about 12 months ago (I think)

ddavitt: Heinlein said in Grumbles that he had an error in RP that none spotted; turned out that at low temps,

ddavitt: ice skates don’t cut an edge

ddavitt: But he had to have the boys skating for the story

DJedPar: That’s true

ddavitt: I wanted to know what the error was; that was it we decided

ddavitt: Heinlein didn’t give details

SAcademy: No school figures?

DJedPar: It’s a very good guess.

ddavitt: It seemed reasonable

SAcademy: The ice melts as you skate over it.

DJedPar: Ginny are you still thinking about skating again?

SAcademy: Because of your weight.

SAcademy: I’d love to., but I can’t get to the rink. Dont drive anymore.

ddavitt: He says it involved a too low crystallization point of water in Grumbles

DJedPar: At 50 below F ice doesn’t melt.

ddavitt: Was making the point that Alice didn’t spot it but was moaning about science errors

SAcademy: Not even from weight on it?

DJedPar: Alice was a stupid B.

DJedPar: No, I tried it. Rough ride.

AGplusone: clueless is maybe a better description … and vicious is what I read from the letters

ddavitt: Heinlein knew it was wrong but decided it wasn’t going to get spotted; didn’t forsee us nitpickers:-)

SAcademy: Well, who said it was fifty below anywqy? It mmight be warmer.

DJedPar: :-D

ddavitt: We don’t know how cold it was on mars anyway…

ddavitt: I think he might give a figure in RP; but it’s not that important.

DJedPar: No, I meant it was 50 below once when I tried it.

ddavitt: At one point the ice melts in the day so it can’t have been that cold

SAcademy: AT what point does it stop melting as you apply weight?

DJedPar: There goes the engineer again.

OakMan 7111: I need to be going now. Take care of yourselves, and your cats

SAcademy: Why not??

DenvToday: Bye Oak.

DJedPar: Bye

DenvToday: Take care!

OakMan 7111: bye

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

AGplusone: When you tried it, Denis, what happened? Below 50?

SAcademy: Bye.

DJedPar: I nearly froze to death, forgot about skating.

AGplusone: screeching halt?

ddavitt: Ginny, if you go to Deja/google, advanced search, type in skating and altfanheinlein

ddavitt: You will get the thread

AGplusone: I can see that, but, assuming you’re thermally protected, is it possible to skate somehow?

DJedPar: The colder it gets the worse you play hockey. No grab.

SAcademy: Okay, Thanks Jane I will try it.

ddavitt: Called ‘Heinlein skating story” in may 1999

AGplusone: Double blades, the teeth used on front of figure skates?

ddavitt: About 30 posts in it.

AGplusone: Anything possible to give more control at that temp?

SAcademy: Not double, they’re hollow ground.

DJedPar: Do you skate with toothy skates in hockey?

AGplusone: Of course not

ddavitt: Eleanor learned to skate this year but I still haven’t; all Canadians seem born skaters

DJedPar: :-D

AGplusone: Just wondering if something could make it possible to do so.

ddavitt: Why can figure skaters do so much more now/ better skates? Training?

SAcademy: Denis has Canadian and U. S. citizensip.

ddavitt: Women doing triples as unheard of 20 years ago

DJedPar: Thanks Ginny. Skaters now have more support from fans.

ddavitt: Do you skate then Denis?

SAcademy: You bet. Triple jumps. They do now.

DJedPar: Yes.

AGplusone: Heated skates?

ddavitt: Ok, I have to go and put babies in bed.

DJedPar: That’s a thought. Heated socks too.

ddavitt: let me know about the topic

AGplusone: Well, yeah, that too.

SAcademy: You can’t heat skates, the metal would lose its temper.

AGplusone: Some metal that might stand up to heat?

AGplusone: Without losing temper?

DJedPar: Robert would have figured out a plan.

AGplusone: I’m planning how I skate on Mars when I get there.

AGplusone: Or maybe a moon of Jupiter

AGplusone: Is it Europa that’s got all the ice.

ddavitt has left the room.

SAcademy: And I would have told him “You can’t do that/”

DJedPar: You would! And he would have smiled.

AGplusone: Give an engineer a slide rule and an imagination to put it on and he’ll move the world

DJedPar: Or she!

AGplusone: that too … wonder if that was original

DJedPar: Ginny’s a good engineer.

AGplusone: someone had to have said it before

DJedPar: She’s never told me why there are 2 gas pedals on Roberts car.

SAcademy: Sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt the discussion.

AGplusone: There were two?

AGplusone: One on the right side as well?

DJedPar: Uhuh…

SAcademy: He used the left footed one. I used the other one.

DJedPar: I’m trying to picture that with both of you in the car.

SAcademy: Just hang it up on the special rack for that.

AGplusone: I have an imaginary brake pedal I use when I sit on the right side when my daughter drives …

SAcademy: Separately.

DJedPar: :-[

AGplusone: Well, we need a topic for next time …

SAcademy: Or have it removed.

DJedPar: Back to skating on Mars?

AGplusone: Sean?

Gaeltachta: David?

SAcademy: No to the topic.

Gaeltachta: :-)

Gaeltachta: I’m thinking……..

AGplusone: How ’bout ‘aliens’?

AGplusone: Did we ever do that?

DJedPar: That sounds good. Lots of aliens.

Gaeltachta: What about possible Heinlein films?…….. Everyone runs with this topic on AFH?

DJedPar: That’s good too – films.

AGplusone: How ’bout scripting one … but which one?

AGplusone: I’ve been listening to the old radio shows …

AGplusone: the script changes in the two I’ve found are a little interesting

SAcademy: Do you have those on tapes?

AGplusone: There’s a site that has “universe”

AGplusone: Jon linked it to our webpage

SAcademy: The whole thing? It’s half an hour, isn’t it?

AGplusone: And I have the copy of Elephants that Neil scripted

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: And there are others available.

SAcademy: The old radio plays seem to be in the public domain now.

AGplusone: use the link at the far bottom in the heinleinsociety.org

AGplusone: page to find the Universe show. NBC show

Gaeltachta: Are the interesting changes due to the different medium?

AGplusone: They must be …

DJedPar: Thanks.

AGplusone: I’d think so.

AGplusone: And some due to continuity I think

Gaeltachta: Yes…… So, what further changes could we expect in filmed versions?….

SAcademy: They use a narrator for that. don’t they? I don’t remember.

AGplusone: In Elephants, they used another character Neil invented

AGplusone: A sort of fair barker that tags along with the man

AGplusone: blithering in his ear

SAcademy: There were three or four of those radio shows. Xerox put them in the public domain.

AGplusone: In Universe they have a narrator, but they use a truncation of the events

AGplusone: to get Hugh exiled

AGplusone: the old historian is changed a bit into a plot device

Gaeltachta: I’ll have a look at the Universe link….. What about “Common Sense”?

AGplusone: Haven’t heard it yet …

AGplusone: Green Hills is another

Gaeltachta: Does it exist I mean?

AGplusone: I may have to order it

AGplusone: Dunno

AGplusone: but there are several that were done

SAcademy: Yes, with Burl Ives

AGplusone: as Ginny said

AGplusone: They are listed, some of them, via the link Jon put up at the bottom of our links pg

DJedPar: What?

AGplusone: others can be ordered

AGplusone: or downloaded for $

Gaeltachta: I borrowed an audio tape from my local library……..

AGplusone: hold on and I’ll dig up a e mail that lists them

Gaeltachta: Leonard Nimoy narrating Green Hills of Earth…. and Gentlemen, Be Seated

SAcademy: That was recorded on a record. I don’t think they had it for anything else.

SAcademy: It’s like trying to hold a handful of sand!!!

DJedPar: Nimoy did a good job there.

Gaeltachta: I enjoyed it……

AGplusone: http://www.old-time.com/sponsors/radiomemories/regular/index.html

SAcademy: It tells me “page cannot be displayed.”

AGplusone: “The Green Hills of Earth,” “Destination Moon,” “The Roads Must Roll,” “Universe,” and “Requiem.”

AGplusone: You have to type the entire two lines in …

SAcademy: I used it as a link.

DJedPar: A friend of mine got a 10 tape version of Mistress but she couldn’t tell me where it came from.

AGplusone: Hmm

SAcademy: Blackstone Audio does it.

DenvToday: Whoever recorded it must have been a fast speaker.

AGplusone: The same site lined from our site has versions of Stranger, Troopers, and Friday available

AGplusone: Friday, IIRC runs seventeen hours

DJedPar: Wow!

SAcademy: Even TEFL is available on tapes.

AGplusone: And Stranger is in two parts …

SAcademy: I just got a copy of it.

AGplusone: at about double that size. That’s right, TEFL is on that site too

AGplusone: They can all be downloaded

DJedPar: Is Starbeast on tape?

AGplusone: and played on computer

SAcademy: Stranger, too.

SAcademy: No, Denis

DJedPar: :-(

AGplusone: We may have a copy of Red Planet available too, shortly.

DenvToday: I’ve heard the Double Star audio tape. I wasn’t crazy about the actor.

SAcademy: Who knows? It might be in the future.

AGplusone: Ginny gave a teacher’s organization permission to record it for a project they’re doing with

AGplusone: ‘special education’ students.

SAcademy: I did? I didn';t know that. I suspect it’s piracy

AGplusone: Yes, Double Star was also listed ….

SAcademy: And I didn’t do that either. I know I didn’t.

AGplusone: Sure, remember that letter from the ‘reading from the future’ group, you referred them to

AGplusone: Eleanor, and she said okay.

SAcademy: Eleanor?

AGplusone: They’re going to be demonstrating their research results at Phil Con

AGplusone: Woods?

SAcademy: Wood.

AGplusone: Wood

AGplusone: reading for the future is the name of the group

AGplusone: It’s the group Brin, Baer, and Binford sponsor

SAcademy: Okay. I have to back her up.

AGplusone: They are restricting access to the recording completely, Ginny

AGplusone: Just their project

DJedPar: Eleanor in deep doodoo?

SAcademy: No. If I told her okay, it’s okay, But I don’t remember it.

SAcademy: Guess I';m slipping.

AGplusone: I have a couple e mail referring to it.

AGplusone: I’ll send them along …

SAcademy: Thank you David.

DJedPar: Topic?

AGplusone: They’re very grateful, by the way, for the permission. It’s a good project

AGplusone: Kids who basically cannot read

SAcademy: Okay. I just didn’t remember it.

SAcademy: No recording allowed, I assume?

AGplusone: Yes, none whatsoever!

DJedPar: Robert predicted the decline in reading.

SAcademy: That’s all right unless someone sneaks one in.

AGplusone: He did, didn’t he?

DJedPar: and Literacy

AGplusone: They’ve suggested that you control how copies of that CD, if any, are distributed to any other teacher

AGplusone: who may wish to duplicate their successes with the project.

AGplusone: So you and Art may wish to review some stuff I send you.

AGplusone: Back to topic?

SAcademy: I believe we had better do that!

AGplusone: Oh, yes.!!!

DJedPar: Good!

AGplusone: [I’m watching them, Ginny.] ;-)

DJedPar: Where are we?

SAcademy: Aliens

AGplusone: I think we could try that … maybe with the cross-over into how you would make a movie including them

DJedPar: Good alien stuff in M’s Children

AGplusone: and which ones …

AGplusone: and why ???

DenvToday: Some of the most interesting aliens are in Starman Jones. The symbiosis of the centaurs and the…

DenvToday: …flying jellyfish.

DJedPar: Yes! Yes!

AGplusone: Better than just “bugs” running all over to make targets ….

AGplusone: for idiots who don’t know anything about tactics to shoot.

Gaeltachta: Gotta take my son to the train station….. It’s been a pleasure…..

DenvToday: Bye Gael.

DJedPar: Bye

AGplusone: bye, Sean

Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: Which novels or stories would we ask them to start reading to prepare to discuss it?

AGplusone: After Time For the Stars of course?

AGplusone: And Farmer in the Sky?

DJedPar: Double Star?

AGplusone: Denis, btw, I need your e mail address …

SAcademy: Same old Martians,

AGplusone: if you would, of course.

AGplusone: thank you sir

DJedPar: Done. djedpar@aol.com

AGplusone: We’ll edit that out if you wish, from the log.

DJedPar: When it works. No it’s intentional.

AGplusone: Now if we could just get Cunningham …

SAcademy: Denis has some problems with AOL in Pigeon Mi

AGplusone: and if someone would tell me who Fred Moulton is …

SAcademy: I will try to do that.

DJedPar: Pigeon is Boonie Country.

SAcademy: He was an astrtonomer.

AGplusone: I finally found out what the toolies are

SAcademy: Astronomer.

AGplusone: Denis and Fred were the first two Heinlein Society dues checks we got

DJedPar: Astrotonomer is a good word.

SAcademy: If I could type it.

AGplusone: It’s a grass that grows in the swamps in the center of the California valley … hard to find now

AGplusone: except way up north.

DJedPar: It’s something they do in Hollywood.

AGplusone: That too … right around the corner from me

SAcademy: They found that grass?

AGplusone: That grass … yes, not the canabis

DJedPar: What grass?

SAcademy: Okay, Who planted the cannabis?

AGplusone: Huell Howser has a PBS program that shows in California. “California’s Gold” he calls it.

AGplusone: Travels all over the state. Went up to some swamps in a program last month and showed us all

AGplusone: what toolie grass looks like.

SAcademy: I hear that Wyoming is full of it.

AGplusone: in the “toolie swamps”

DJedPar: If you wear patchouli you will test positive for THC (cannabis)

AGplusone: That’s interesting to know …

SAcademy: You’re not going to do it?

DJedPar: Especially if you’re going for a new job.

AGplusone: Haven’t smelled patchouli in years.

AGplusone: Nice smell, btw.

DJedPar: I’m allergic to it.

SAcademy: Really? allergic?

AGplusone: Did you live/do you live out here, Denis?

AGplusone: I live in the former people’s republic of Santa Monica

DJedPar: Never been to California. Lived most everywhere else in NA though.

AGplusone: It’s a nice place to visit

AGplusone: but you have to remember to wear your aluminum pie plate over your head

DJedPar: They won’t let me out of the boonies,

DJedPar: AKA Michigan’s Thumb.

AGplusone: Ah, the Upper Pen …

AGplusone: I have relatives named Hanson living up there

DJedPar: Not the top, the Thumb.

AGplusone: and in Sou Ste Marie? (sp?)

DJedPar: Closer to Detroit and Windsor.

AGplusone: how do you spell that

AGplusone: Okay

DJedPar: Sault… means junp in french.

SAcademy: Sault Ste. Marie

DJedPar: Jump

AGplusone: Yes. I can’t spell it because I know how to say it.

AGplusone: Grandmother was born there.

DJedPar: They say soo here but it’s pronounced like so.

SAcademy: Denis speaks beautiful Canadian French.

AGplusone: that’s how she pronounced it

AGplusone: but all her kids said sue …

DJedPar: Thank you Ginny.

SAcademy: Welcome

DJedPar: Your grandmother was right.

AGplusone: Well, we’re at that time to say good-bye. Nice having you.

AGplusone: Do you know how to find the message board, Denis?

AGplusone: On AFH?

DJedPar: Thanks for the fun. And I’ll try to find it promptly next time.

SAcademy: Yes, I gave him a link.

AGplusone: type keyword “newsgroups” and look up alt.fan.heinlein if you lose it

DJedPar: Thank you. Merci.

maikoshT: Night everyone. Sorry I missed the discussion. Looking forward to reading the log. Anything need …

maikoshT: to be edited out

DenvToday: I must be going. Thanks to you all for a great discussion.

AGplusone: I’ll try to post a leadoff post in a day or two… da nada, as the Hispanic canadiens say

SAcademy: Nite, all.

DenvToday: Good night everybody!

AGplusone: Night, Ron

DenvToday: Night :-)

DJedPar: Bye.

SAcademy has left the room.

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: Ginny’s nice to attend these things, isn’t she?

AGplusone: DavidWrightSr and MaikoshT are one and the same

maikoshT: It’s fantastic. I love it when she drops those little items about Robert

AGplusone: I do too

AGplusone: I guess the consensus was that Jenny was Ginny, eh?

maikoshT: I had both going as my DW machine is flaky and goes ballistic. In fact, my screen there is all white

DJedPar: It’s very important to her. And us.

AGplusone: It is denis

AGplusone: And fun!

maikoshT: Anyhow, I have complete copies of the log. Anything I should get rid of?

AGplusone: Nothing that I saw

maikoshT: Ok. I’ll have it posted by late this evening, I hope.

DJedPar: No. Sawright.

AGplusone: a little disorganized but that was my fault …

AGplusone: we’ll have a good topic next time I think

AGplusone: Good night, David, from New York …

maikoshT: Good night Chet from Washington

AGplusone: And Good Night for NBC

maikoshT: BTW. that reminds me I found a URL for Kukla Fran and Ollie

AGplusone: Didja, where?

maikoshT: I’ll have to e-mail it as this dumb AIM won’t let me post long URLs

AGplusone: Yes, ‘improvements’ in a pig’s eye!

maikoshT: Just do a search on the three names and you’ll probably find it.

[Editor’s Note: The Unofficial KFO Page]

AGplusone: ‘kay, I’ll see you. Enjoy read of the evening.

AGplusone: rest

maikoshT: will do.

AGplusone has left the room.

maikoshT: Log officially closed at 8:01 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 06-07-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT The Future World of 2001

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 06-07-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

The Future World of 2001

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
In 1956, inspired by a comment from Virginia Heinlein, Robert Heinlein wrote a story about a man living in 1970 who takes the ‘cold sleep’ and arrives in late 2000 AD. In this chat I suggest that we look, not at the story itself but at the two eras and discuss the likelihood of the history and inventions that Heinlein described.

It’s always fascinating when we arrive in a year immortalised in fiction; 1984 and 2001 being two of the best examples. Generally we fail to match up ( thankfully in some cases) but it’s fun to compare.

Most of us can remember 1970 and we are living in the exact same time that Dan was; we had a recent post in April, congratulating Dan on arriving in the future for the second time. However few of the advances that Heinlein described are with us, even those that Dan had in 1970 and of course, he missed a few, notably disposable diapers :-)

I propose we list a few of them ( there are a LOT…..I went through the book last night and noted them down so I can say that Heinlein jammed this story full of throwaway references to futuristic gadgets but, in his usual skilful way he was so matter of fact about it that they slide in unnoticed). Then we can think about if we have them ( my tech knowledge is so non existent that I need help on this !), if we want them and if we’re likely to get them soon.

We can also look at what Heinlein failed to predict, not in a smug way as I defy anyone to predict the future world of 2050 and be 100% accurate but in order to speculate about why things took a turn off at an angle that he couldn’t foresee.

OK, here are some of the things Dan had in 1970, starting with the back history.

The Cold War had warmed up to actual conflict. Washington was nuked, near miss on Manhattan in what is called the Six Week War. The US was saved by the revival of stock piled troops in cold sleep, an advance that had been around for some decades. Denver is now the capital city ( near to where Heinlein lived at the time of course!). In 1968, a law was passed called “The Gold Reserve Act”.

When Dan is discussing the cold sleep, the insurance man uses the phone;

“I didn’t hear the rest of the conversation, for he switched on the
privacy guard.”

I can’t think of anything that can stop people in the room with you from hearing what you say on the phone today.

The Carlsbad Caverns are used as a giant repository of personal documents; presumably they learned their lesson about storing things above ground during the war.

He has automatic traffic control, though not on all roads.

He invents Hired Girl, Window Willie, Flexible Frank….all inventions that we don’t have, certainly not at the stage where you can buy them cheaply and repair easily.

BUT….they still have typewriters. Well, in 1970 so did we… He thinks about inventing something that will empty a dishwasher ( I want one!!) and dustbins that empty themselves.

He notes that his household machine didn’t have to answer phones as “A.T & T were already renting a gadget for that. There was no need for him to answer the door either, as most new houses were being equipped with door answers.”

If by this last he means intercoms, then yes, we have one on our door, though we don’t use it. Not sure when they were invented though.

Belle uses the zombie drug on him; this was invented during the Cold war to combat brainwashing. I hope this doesn’t exist and never will….

On to 2000/2001…

The most shocking change is that people wear cerise bell bottom trousers but we’ll pass on quickly….while noting that had Heinlein set this fashion in 1970 instead, he’d have been a bit more on target :-)

The main differences are some that Dan himself is responsible for, at least in the field of robots. All his ideas are there in living, breathing, er, well, they exist and are working fine. He himself mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also led to time travel in a serendipitous way.

Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just on the screen. Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I wonder?). pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that awkward folding and rustling.

Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins, dishes keep food hot, mirrors don’t fog up, teeth can be regenerated, smog has gone, the common cold is vanquished, phones have view screens…..Venus has a research colony, England is a province of Canada ( no mention of Wales, Scotland and N Ireland though) and France has a king.

So; does it sound attractive?

On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt

insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>So; does it sound attractive?

I love it!!!


No-one ever said any of us had to be right, just
that we’d thought…before we thought we were right.
— Jani

Jon Ogden wrote:

>On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt >insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:
>>So; does it sound attractive?
>I love it!!!

Any bit in particular? I forgot, shirts that don’t need laundering and “Beardgo”…..just what did they do with all the time they saved I wonder?

I am always taken by the way that Dan focuses on improving the lot of the housewife. I don’t know if this was more input from Ginny or Heinlein’s engineering background making him sensitive to the sheer time wasting, back breaking, mind numbing tedium of housework. He also sets out to help Pete but cats are more traditional; “For old Pete I’ve built a “cat bathroom” to use in bad weather – automatic, self replenishing, sanitary and odorless. However, Pete being a proper cat, prefers to go outdoors…”

I wonder if the huge industry that is kitty litter was around in any form in 1956? We do have some very luxurious and automated litter trays too, though not quite approaching this description.


…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep
ddavitt wrote in message
>Jon Ogden wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt >> insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:
>>>So; does it sound attractive?
>> I love it!!!
>Any bit in particular? I forgot, shirts that don’t need laundering
>and “Beardgo”…..just what did they do with all the time they saved
>I wonder?
>I am always taken by the way that Dan focuses on improving the lot
>of the housewife. I don’t know if this was more input from Ginny or
>Heinlein’s engineering background making him sensitive to the sheer
>time wasting, back breaking, mind numbing tedium of housework.
>He also sets out to help Pete but cats are more traditional;
>”For old Pete I’ve built a “cat bathroom” to use in bad weather –
>automatic, self replenishing, sanitary and odorless. However, Pete
>being a proper cat, prefers to go outdoors…”
>I wonder if the huge industry that is kitty litter was around in any
>form in 1956? We do have some very luxurious and automated litter
>trays too, though not quite approaching this description.

Beardgo? Beard-GO?!

Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.

Charles Walker Jr

walkers wrote:

>Beardgo? Beard-GO?!
>Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.
> —

I’m sure there is a BeardGRO too….. Dan must just have been clean shaven.

I keep noticing more in my practically illegible notes. One is hypnostudy. This is referenced in Space Cadet too; Heinlein must have been taken with the idea though I don’t know if the sleep tapes some people use are quite the same so this may be one we still don’t have.


…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep
ddavitt wrote in message
>walkers wrote:
>> Beardgo? Beard-GO?!
>> Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.
>> —
>I’m sure there is a BeardGRO too….. Dan must just have
>clean shaven.
>I keep noticing more in my practically illegible notes. One is hypnostudy.
>This is referenced in Space Cadet too; Heinlein must have been taken with
>idea though I don’t know if the sleep tapes some people use are quite the same
>so this may be one we still don’t have.

Hmmm….my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with mission info, but to allay fears.< Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and *I* do, it’s mentioned in SIASL too. I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful. — Charles Walker Jr walkers wrote: >Hmmm….my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already
>showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter
>Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with
>mission info, but to allay fears.
>Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and
>*I* do, it’s mentioned in SIASL too.
>I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working
>knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful.

I don’t know; it seems to go against TANSTAAFL somehow. No pain, no gain and all that. It’s also dodgy as mistakes could be made, indoctrination could be slipped in amongst the vocabulary…I’ll stick to the old ways. Though I wouldn’t mind learning renshawing. I’m a speed reader but I can miss stuff, especially when I’m tired. Improving my accuracy would be worth a little effort. The hypno method would be odd too; you wouldn’t know what you knew (if you know what I mean).

In SIASL don’t they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people talking about studying grimly so her husband didn’t get ahead of her and leave her. Maybe it’s one of those catches where AFTER you’ve reached a certain level you are capable of learning by mind transference.


ddavitt wrote in message
>In SIASL don’t they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people
>talking about studying grimly so her husband didn’t get ahead of her and leave
>her. Maybe it’s one of those catches where AFTER you’ve reached a certain level
>you are capable of learning by mind transference.

It is *exactly* that AFAIK. you have to learn how to think in martian before you can have knowledge dumped into you.

Indoctrination is certainly a posibility. I believe it’s even mentioned that it happens in ST. While I would like to pick up a few subjects, it would have to be someone I *trust*.

Actually there’s your cost right there, the risk of being indoctrinated. The one thing I can say about that though, is that in most cases a person cannot be hypnotized to do anything against their will. (That’s why often times stop-smoking hypnosis doesn’t work.)

Note, I said *most* cases. Mesmer and a few others claimed to be capable of it.

Charles Walker Jr

…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep

ddavitt wrote:
>walkers wrote:
>> Hmmm….my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already
>> showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter
>> Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with
>> mission info, but to allay fears.
>> Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and
>> *I* do, it’s mentioned in SIASL too.
>> I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working
>> knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful.
>I don’t know; it seems to go against TANSTAAFL somehow. No pain, no gain and all
>that. It’s also dodgy as mistakes could be made, indoctrination could be slipped
>in amongst the vocabulary…I’ll stick to the old ways. Though I wouldn’t mind
>learning renshawing. I’m a speed reader but I can miss stuff, especially when
>I’m tired. Improving my accuracy would be worth a little effort.

I think you’ve pointed out the fact that TANSTAAFL is not violated. I think in some of the descriptions, and I’d have to go back to find out where, there was sometimes a headached involved. Second, you do run the risk of indoctrination or adverse suggestions being integrated into what you are learning – If This Goes On –

>The hypno method would be odd too; you wouldn’t know what you knew (if you know
>what I mean).

This was pointed out in Space Cadet, when Matt didn’t know he knew Venusian, until it was triggered by someone else speaking Venusian. This implies that there is an effort that must be made to activate the knowledge that was acquired. Also, I wonder if this knowledge goes into permanent storage directly, or if it has to make its way there through a repetition mechanism. Interesting to consider.

>In SIASL don’t they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people
>talking about studying grimly so her husband didn’t get ahead of her and leave
>her. Maybe it’s one of those catches where AFTER you’ve reached a certain level
>you are capable of learning by mind transference.

Yes, you are referring to Saul’s wife and her concern that her husband was “leaving her” for another person. If only she knew … Also notice that when they received their learning, there was still a broad variance in the ability to use the language, at least as far as we saw in the novel. For instance, some had very poor accents, etc.


Randy J. Jost, Ph.D., PE

Asst. Professor

Dept of Elec. & Comp. Engr.

Utah State University

(435) 797-0789 (Phone)

(435) 797-3054 (Fax)


“Randy J. Jost” wrote:
>Yes, you are referring to Saul’s wife and her concern that her husband
>was “leaving her” for another person. If only she knew … Also
>notice that when they received their learning, there was still a broad
>variance in the ability to use the language, at least as far as we saw
>in the novel. For instance, some had very poor accents, etc.

I wonder if that would mean they were less likely to become powerful? If learning Martian is necessary to master the mental powers and you can’t do it to an acceptable standard then, what? Someone disappears only half way? It’s always struck me as a strange requirement. Why should a skill that humans can acquire only be accessible through an alien language?

Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton’s book on Stranger, _The Martian Named Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford’s Nitrosyncretic Press) has some answers…..


“ddavitt” wrote in message
>I wonder if that would mean they were less likely to become powerful? If learning
>Martian is necessary to master the mental powers and you can’t do it to an acceptable
>standard then, what? Someone disappears only half way? It’s always struck me as a
>strange requirement. Why should a skill that humans can acquire only be accessible
>through an alien language?
>Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton’s book on Stranger, _The Martian Named
>Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford’s Nitrosyncretic Press) has some answers…..

I wonder if I should thwap you for spamming?

As for the actual meat of the post… ;) No, it did not affect their ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) The idea of the accents comes near the end, and the only effect of having an accent rather than throat gargly pure Martian, was that Mike could not use you for dumping bulk loads of words for the dictionary. It is mentioned that one of them (Duke?) speaks Martian with a Bronx accent.

IIRC the only half disappearing is caused by having a thick English accent. Of course, it is not the accent itself, but the inability to think regardless of language. (See the uncut version.) Had something to do with being raised in a Monarchy I think…


(Who muct now work for a few weeks to get rid of this Florida / Alabama accent he has reacquired.)

Nuclear Waste wrote in message

>IIRC the only half disappearing is caused by having a thick English accent.
>Of course, it is not the accent itself, but the inability to think
>regardless of language. (See the uncut version.) Had something to do with
>being raised in a Monarchy I think…

Some things never change. *thwaps Jim with rolled-up British flag*. I think the Martian language thing is something to do with Ouspensky – ask BillP, he knows that sort of stuff…


“ddavitt” wrote in message


> On to 2000/2001…

I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this evening, I’ll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it, hint).

David Wright
Nuclear Waste wrote:

>”ddavitt” wrote
>> Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton’s book on Stranger, _The
>Martian Named
>> Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford’s Nitrosyncretic Press) has some
>I wonder if I should thwap you for spamming?

I know you’re joking…three of our own write and publish a book about Stranger…we should know about this. My order is in and I’m looking forward to adding it to my shelves.

>As for the actual meat of the post… ;) No, it did not affect their
>ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of
>the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) snip NW

I will ignore these slurs ( which, considering the huge variety in UK accents are pretty hard to take seriously anyway :-)). I think your explanation is a good one though; I hadn’t quite tied it together with the comments Jubal made about reading the Koran in Arabic before.

That makes some sense…but I still wonder if there’s a way to point X on the map that doesn’t require Martian….or were we never meant to have those powers and we’re taking an illegal short cut?

Who wanted Mike to teach us Martian mental discipline? God? Why? To ensure that we only got the skills once we had advanced far enough to have interplanetary travel? Doesn’t seem too likely in view of the parlous state of Earth in the book. As a way of saving at least some people from the degeneracy? Perhaps.

David Wright wrote:

>I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons
>between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in
>Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this
>evening, I’ll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it,
> David Wright

Wouldn’t dream of spoiling your fun…Thinking about it, it’s interesting that once again, Heinlein bases his future in the home…we get mentions of old people living on the moon for their health and such but basically he shows us a lot of improvements for the housewife ( and it is still a woman at home doing the work…). I think that focusing on an area that we are all familiar with adds to the interest. Heinlein also put his ideas into practise when he and Mrs Heinlein designed and built their own houses.

One theme common to Heinlein that doesn’t seem close to coming true yet is that of a lack of food leading to us eating yeast substitutes masquerading as real food. This world food shortage is in Door and the EU predictions. I wonder if it is waiting around the corner or if we will continue to avoid it in the developed nations?

I would like to see a prediction that advances in agriculture decrease world hunger as we make more efficient use of land that, at present is infertile but that probably won’t happen. If we did find a way to make the desert, ‘bloom like the rose’, it’d probably just turn out that it really belonged to whichever country had invented the advance rather than the formerly famine ridden nation and the next thing you know, there’d be a war or something. :-(

Jane wrote:

>He himself
>mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of
>clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also
>led to time travel in a serendipitous way.

Well… In the Sticktite category we have velcro and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way swimsuits fit. Good call there!

Nullgrav, on the other hand…..

>Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve
>some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just
>on the screen.

Nude beaches do exist, but they aren’t “common”, at least as far as I can tell… IMAX theaters and Dolby sound sort of hit the mark there, although only the Rocky Horror Picture Show really has the “extrodinary special effects”, (flying toast? rain storms? etc…) as far as I can tell.

>Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D
>ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I

Color in the newspaper is common now, although 3 D is rare…

>pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that
>awkward folding and rustling.

Reading online does work that way, at least sort of…

>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,

Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?

Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.

My question is, how many of the hits were caused by people reading Heinlein and saying “good idea, I’m going to make that one happen?”

Tian Harter


Tian Harter wrote in message news:20010601172130.19429.00000152@ng-fk1.aol.com…

>Jane wrote:
>>He himself
>>mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of
>>clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also
>>led to time travel in a serendipitous way.
>Well… In the Sticktite category we have velcro
>and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way
>swimsuits fit. Good call there!
>Nullgrav, on the other hand…..
>>Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve
>>some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just
>>on the screen.
>Nude beaches do exist, but they aren’t “common”, at
>least as far as I can tell… IMAX theaters and Dolby
>sound sort of hit the mark there, although only
>the Rocky Horror Picture Show really has the
>”extrodinary special effects”, (flying toast? rain
>storms? etc…) as far as I can tell.
>>Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D
>>ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I
>Color in the newspaper is common now, although
>3 D is rare…
>>pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that
>>awkward folding and rustling.
>Reading online does work that way, at least sort of…
>>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,
>Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper
>money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?
>Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.
>My question is, how many of the hits were caused by
>people reading Heinlein and saying “good idea, I’m
>going to make that one happen?”

I am amazed by how much of what we saw in Star Trek (original series, of course) is being 30 years after the series premiered, not 300 years. NASA is even investigating the possibility of faster than light travel (according to an article I read in Popular Science)

Remember how Eunice (IWFNE) wore clothes that were painted on? Models do this all the time in magazines, although I don’t imagine many secretaries show up at work that way.
Tian Harter wrote:

> Well… In the Sticktite category we have velcro
> and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way
> swimsuits fit. Good call there!

Yes; I remember when leggings came out in the 1980’s. The first time I wore them I felt as Friday must have done in superskin :-) After jeans they were a lot more revealing and a darn sight comfier.

( Mental picture of me lying flat on the bed using a pair of pliers to do up the zip on my skin tight jeans…and being unable to repeat this in the pub loo a few hours later when space was at a premium and I had no pliers…and we laugh at the Victorian women in corsets)

>>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,
>Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper
>money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?

Don’t know the details; it’s just mentioned in passing.

>Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.
>My question is, how many of the hits were caused by
>people reading Heinlein and saying “good idea, I’m
>going to make that one happen?”

I’d like to think that was the case but probably not.

ddavitt wrote:

>Tian Harter wrote:
>> >Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the
>> >panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,
>> Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper
>> money is more “plastic” than it used to be, What panic?
>Don’t know the details; it’s just mentioned in passing.

It’s mentioned in the usual Heinlein tradition, similar to the “Mistake of 1972″ referred to in “-All You Zombies-“. As far as plastic money goes, any visitor to Australia recently will tell you that our monetary notes are actually made of plastic (apparently they last longer and are more difficult/impossible to counterfeit).



Must sell at tallest sum.
Jane wrote:

> One theme common to Heinlein that doesn’t seem close to coming true yet is
> that of a lack of food leading to us eating yeast substitutes masquerading as
> real food. This world food shortage is in Door and the EU predictions. I
> wonder if it is waiting around the corner or if we will continue to avoid it
> in the developed nations?
> I would like to see a prediction that advances in agriculture decrease world
> hunger as we make more efficient use of land that, at present is infertile
> but that probably won’t happen. If we did find a way to make the desert,
>’bloom like the rose’, it’d probably just turn out that it really belonged to
>whichever country had invented the advance rather than the formerly famine
>ridden nation and the next thing you know, there’d be a war or something.

The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation, nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There is plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic) are hungry.

William Dennis II



William Dennis wrote:

>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation,
>nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. snip

I agree that it’s not simple…too many factors, economic, religious, political, physical…but I can’t help feeling that there is a solution. I wonder if what will crack it will be something off at a tangent from all those? Maybe vastly improved global logistics that allow a surplus in one place to be easily, cheaply and quickly diverted to a famine area….at a nice tax cut for the donor as an incentive.

Doesn’t make sense for half the world to be dieting and half starving… Perhaps it’s the mommy mentality but I feel like saying sternly, “share nicely!”


wrote in message


>William Dennis wrote:
>>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to
>> nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. snip
>I agree that it’s not simple…too many factors, economic, religious, political,
>physical…but I can’t help feeling that there is a solution. I wonder if what
>will crack it will be something off at a tangent from all those? Maybe vastly
>improved global logistics that allow a surplus in one place to be easily,
>cheaply and quickly diverted to a famine area….at a nice tax cut for the donor
>as an incentive.
> Doesn’t make sense for half the world to be dieting and half starving…Perhaps
>it’s the mommy mentality but I feel like saying sternly, “share nicely!”

I believe in sharing too. As long as it is voluntary and not through taxation or wealth distribution schemes.

William Dennis II



On 2001.06.01 21:29:40,

the amazingdeclared:

>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation,
>nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There is
>plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy
>the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with
>almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are
>aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic)
>are hungry.

I don’t quarrel with the basic point, but… agriculture? How many rich populous countries are aggressively free-market about agriculture?

(In a free market supply and demand fall into equilibrium; no butter mountains, wine lakes, programs to run cars with corn likker).

Nollaig MacKenzie


Setiathome: “You have completed more work units than 96.082% of our users.”
Nollaig MacKenzie wrote in message


>On 2001.06.01 21:29:40,
>the amazing declared:
>> The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to verpopulation,
>> nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There
>>plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy
>>the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with
>>almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are
>>aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic)
>>are hungry.
>I don’t quarrel with the basic point, but… agriculture?
>How many rich populous countries are aggressively free-market
>about agriculture?
>(In a free market supply and demand fall into equilibrium;
>no butter mountains, wine lakes, programs to run cars with
>corn likker).

There is certainly a lot of interference in the free market in agriculture in this country. Butter supports. Peanut supports. Tobacco supports. Sugar supports. Ethanol supports. Honey, even. All of it is supposed to help the “family farmer.” but most ends up in the hands of corporations.

Still the actually buying and selling takes place on the open market, which keeps prices low.

Frankly, I would do away with all the “help” and let the family farmer sink or swim on his own.

William Dennis II



>Some things never change. *thwaps Jim with rolled-up British flag*. I think
>the Martian language thing is something to do with Ouspensky – ask BillP, he
>knows that sort of stuff…

I plead punchdrunkeness. Having gone through 500+ posts in a night in an effort to catch up will do that to you.


wrote in message news:3B17E17F.43C23999@netcom.ca…

>I know you’re joking…three of our own write and publish a book about
>Stranger…we should know about this. My order is in and I’m looking forward to
>adding it to my shelves.

Jane, I thought it was obvious that I was applying for the shepard position in the first and last part of my post. ;) I have a nice yard ready for you and Jani’s goats.

>> As for the actual meat of the post… ;) No, it did not affect their
>> ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of
>> the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) snip NW

> I will ignore these slurs ( which, considering the huge variety in UK accents
> are pretty hard to take seriously anyway :-)). I think your explanation is a
> good one though; I hadn’t quite tied it together with the comments Jubal made
> about reading the Koran in Arabic before.

I can’t take credit for it, I got it from the book.

>That makes some sense…but I still wonder if there’s a way to point X on the
>map that doesn’t require Martian….or were we never meant to have those powers
>and we’re taking an illegal short cut?

I don’t know if it was an illegal shortcut so much as Prometheus delivering fire. I think we would have gotten there eventually. Jubal groks without speaking Martian, Hindus manage similar control of their bodies, Allie groks in a limited fashion using astrology etc. The pieces were there, we just had not developed them.

>Who wanted Mike to teach us Martian mental discipline? God? Why?

My reading of the book makes the whole thing look like preordained free will. (Mrs. Douglas on assignment, Mike etc.) As to God doing it, of course he did, all that groks is God. Why? I would not presume to answer for you Jane. Thou Art God.

Nuclear Waste wrote:

>”ddavitt” wrote in message
>>I know you’re joking…three of our own write and publish a book about
>>Stranger…we should know about this. My order is in and I’m looking
>forward to
>>adding it to my shelves.
>Jane, I thought it was obvious that I was applying for the shepard position
>in the first and last part of my post. ;) I have a nice yard ready for you
>and Jani’s goats.

Of course it was Jim, that’s why I started with “I know you’re joking”. After over three years I can tell when you’re trying to wind me up. Most of the time :-)

William Dennis II wrote:

>Frankly, I would do away with all the “help” and
>let the family farmer sink or swim on his own.

I find the farmers market to be a much better source of cutting edge marketplace technology than any supermarket I ever heard of.

Agribusiness simply can’t compete with a woman selling Pink Ladys by the pound.

Tian Harter


“David Wright” wrote in message news:9f8l5u$314e2$1@ID-53646.news.dfncis.de…

>”ddavitt” wrote in message
>> On to 2000/2001…
>I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons
>between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in
>Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this
>evening, I’ll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it,
>David Wright

Ok. So no one took the bait, I guess that I’ll have to make a stab at it. I include where I can remember similar references in RAH’s works. Rererences are off the top of my head and are not meant to be exclusive.

1) Changed definition of suburbia. 200 miles around city made possible by flying automated pilot cabs. (Beyond This Horizon)

2) Houses build as domes. RAH’s character said that they reminded her of domes in Wizard of Oz. Made me think of R. Buckminster Fuller’s geodesic domes. (Red Planet)

3) Social change. Casual nudity is normal in homes. Only people put off, (slightly), are us old fogies. (a number of RAH’s books showed this one)

3) Social change. Families have ‘family psychiatrist’, although apparently not taken too seriously since homeowner decides to disobey in deference to ‘old fogy’, who, however, recognizes social significance of being classed as ‘an outsider, not a member of family’. (Time Enough For Love)

4) Complete dust precipitation from outside and a ‘whirlwind’ to collect dust from inside house along with ultraviolet sterilization, disposable surface materials keeps house ‘clean’. ‘Only barbarians wear shoes in house’.

5) Social change. Even ‘old fogy’ accepts nudity in sun-bathing setting.

6) Modern science has allowed even ‘old fogies’ to remain young looking if they so desire, ‘and most of them so wish’. (Methusaleh’s Children)

7) Complete weather-controlled patio and swimming pool area which “appears to be outdoors, but is not;it is covered by a bubble of transparent plastic, blown and cured on the spot.”

8) Automated kitched ‘stove’ which keeps track of inventory, produces meals on a random basis which can be selected or rejected by the ‘cook’. It then ‘cook’ or warms them. Apparently lots of pseudo food, ‘lamb chops based on fish’, etc. Food not as plentiful as in 1900. ‘Too many people, not enough acres’. Dishes burned not cleaned. (Farmer in the Sky).

9) Television which records and categorizes programs, especially news ones, which can be looked at later. (Methusaleh’s Children).

10) Recording Phones, with automatic call forwarding. (Farmer in the Sky)

11) Old folks home on the moon.

That’s 3-4 pages. More to come when, and if, I have the time.

David Wright
“David Wright” wrote in message news:9fdgas$3gcnl$1@ID-53646.news.dfncis.de…


>That’s 3-4 pages. More to come when, and if, I have the time.
>David Wright

P.S. And all of this is from the ‘fictional scenario’ leadin. All of the ‘real’ predictions come later on.

David Wright
I think the biggest failure to achieve what Heinlein predicted has to be in the field of space travel. I’m sure he would have put money on a lunar colony in 2001 if someone offered him odds back in 1950.

Even the depressing world of IWFNE has that escape route; Joan Eunice’s child will grow up looking at earth from a distance, part of a young and vital community rather than a decadent and violent one.


ddavitt wrote in message
> I think the biggest failure to achieve what Heinlein predicted has to be in the
> field of space travel. I’m sure he would have put money on a lunar colony in
> 2001 if someone offered him odds back in 1950.
> Even the depressing world of IWFNE has that escape route; Joan Eunice’s child
>will grow up looking at earth from a distance, part of a young and vital
>community rather than a decadent and violent one.

Looking at it, I don’t think he realized the hatred that would evolve for discovery. He was obviously an optimist where the race was concerned, and the politicians will void out discovery for votes every time.

Charles Walker Jr

…no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep trying.-RAH
Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

fgherman has entered the room.

fgherman: Look a little quiet so far.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Felicia. Only us mice here so far

fgherman: squeak,squeak

fgherman: I don’t think this crowd is watching the MTV Movie Awards

DavidWrightSr: I doubt it.

fgherman: Is there a topic for this evening?

DavidWrightSr: Yes. Hang on a min.

DavidWrightSr: Yes, the ‘World of The Future 2001′. Taken mostly from RAH’s Door into Summer

DavidWrightSr: I hate these short message we are limited to now.

fgherman: or “Where’s my flying car

DavidWrightSr: I had to do that one completely over. Right, You’ll have to wait in line after me for one. :-)

fgherman: I wasn’t aware they had changed things on us.

DavidWrightSr: the line length went from about 450 chars to a little over a hundred.

fgherman: boo

DavidWrightSr: The older version of AIM stops you when you reach the limit, but the new one doesn’t

DavidWrightSr: and if you go over, you have to do it over.

fgherman: oh, an “improvement”

RMLWJ1 has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello

DavidWrightSr: Hi there. Welcome. Nobody here yet, but us mices

fgherman: squeak,squeak

DavidWrightSr: People usually start showing up about now.

DavidWrightSr: fgherman is Felicia , I am David. What is your name?

Sacademy has entered the room.

RMLWJ1: I’m Leon

fgherman: Good evening Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ginny.

Sacademy: Good evening all.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Leon. We now have Leon, Felicia, Ginny and David Present. I expect the others will be shortly

DavidWrightSr: Leon was my brother’s name.

RMLWJ1: Any topic tonight in particular?

DavidWrightSr: Yes, the ‘World of The Future 2001′. Taken mostly from RAH’s Door into Summer

DavidWrightSr: and ‘Expanded Universe’ I hope

Sacademy: I am expecting two guests this evening. Sandy and Denis (pronounced French fashion, Donny)

DavidWrightSr: Great. Is that their screen names?

Sacademy: No. Denis is DJedPar and Sandy is

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will

Sacademy: Sandysandfort.

geeairmoe2: Hi, David, all.

fgherman: HelloWill

Sacademy: Good evening Will.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. I’ve added them to my ‘buddy list’ and will keep an eye out for them.

DavidWrightSr: Wonder where our leaders are?

Sacademy: My guests haven’t turned up yet.

Sacademy: Thank you David.

RMLWJ1: I trust all are well?

Sacademy: We were having a thunderstorm and I wasn’t sure I could get here, so I sent an email to AGplysone.

Sacademy: AGplusone.

DavidWrightSr: We can just chat for a bit and hope Jane or David Silver or someone shows up to get us started

fgherman: You do need the rain down there.

DavidWrightSr: We have had rain, rain, rain. Almost caught us up. They had to close down LSU where my son is because

DavidWrightSr: of flooding.

Sacademy: We certainly do. It’s been very dry.

fgherman: I’d be happy to send you some of our excess

DavidWrightSr: Yippe.. I see Jane signing on

geeairmoe2: Allison missed us in Central Texas.

Sacademy: I wish you could Felicia.

geeairmoe2: We expect rain … oh, about September.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt has left the room.

RMLWJ1: We’ve had the odd spot of it here in Roanoke, but by and large it’s been a dry spring.

ddavitt has entered the room.

fgherman: Was it something we said.

DavidWrightSr: Slava Bogu. our leader is here.

ddavitt: Sorry; two windows opened at once

Sacademy: Good evening, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.

fgherman: EVening Jane

geeairmoe2: Hello, Jane.

ddavitt: David refused to move away from the computer. i had to get testy with him:-)

ddavitt: Checking UK election results

ddavitt: Hi everyone.

fgherman: Tony Blair is still winning, right?

Sacademy: Blair won. I could have told him

ddavitt: Yes, foregone conclusion…very low turnout tho

RMLWJ1: brb. Coffee.

ddavitt: Dave; while I remember, have you managed to contact Robert Crais?

Sacademy: I need some more lemonade.

Sacademy: brb

ddavitt: Looks as if Connie may not be able to be GofH for a while so we could ask Robert to be the next one?

geeairmoe2: Robert is . . . ?

Sacademy: Robert who?

ddavitt: Robert crais is a mystery writer

ddavitt: He always has a Heinlein reference in his books

DavidWrightSr: No, I haven’t. I will if we need to look around for another GOH. When would you suggest?

Sacademy: Nice of him.

DavidWrightSr: He’s the one who put the pictures on the Colorado house wasn’t he?

ddavitt: Yes

geeairmoe2: Does he have a web site?

ddavitt: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll have to search for his address.

ddavitt: I have it bookmarked. hang on

Sacademy: I have addys for SFWA only

DavidWrightSr: When do we want him for?

ddavitt: http://www.robertcrais.com/

ddavitt: http://www.robertcrais.com/

ddavitt: Anytime really

geeairmoe2: Thanks, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. I’ll check it out. Again. What date should we shoot for?

ddavitt: We have no topic for next time

ddavitt: But that may be too soon

DavidWrightSr: That’s a little close.

ddavitt: We are blank for July 5/7 as there is a con

ddavitt: July19/21 is racism

ddavitt: August sometime is critical perspectives

ddavitt: That’s it

ddavitt: racism can get switched if need be

DavidWrightSr: I’ll try for 5/7 and see what he says, That’s not a particularly good time as a lot of people…

Sacademy: I just went back,. Bill is online now.

DavidWrightSr: plan events around the 4th.

ddavitt: we can skip that chat then if you like or just have a come and natter about anything night

DavidWrightSr: He’s still on AOL, hasn’t logged into AIM yet.

ddavitt: basically, if we can get him, just see what suits him.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I’ll go ahead and try. See what he says.

ddavitt: He’s a Buffy fan too :-)

fgherman: Buffy rules

ddavitt: A man of taste…

Sacademy: Who is that Buffy that you’re tlaking about?

ddavitt: Oh yes…did you see that last episode; shock horror

ddavitt: Buffy the vampire Slayer SA

DavidWrightSr: Series on TV, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Never watched it myself

fgherman: Buffy the Vampire Slayer – a tv show

ddavitt: Very good show; hidden depths

Sacademy: Thanks

ddavitt: OK, shall we kick off then?

RMLWJ1: Buffy and the Vampire Slayers is now a TV show, ma’am.

geeairmoe2: One of my brother’s is a fan. Love Willow. he has a fondness for redheads.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah Right. With a name like Buffy O:-)

ddavitt: It’s an excellent show

ddavitt: Don’t go by the film; that was dire

DavidWrightSr: I’m just kidding. Never had a chance to see it.

RMLWJ1: Jim Baen is a Buffy fan.

ddavitt: Catch some of the summer reruns; you may like it

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

Sacademy: Ray for Jim!

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Bill.

ddavitt: Lots of overlap between heinlein/Buffy fans.

Sacademy: Hello Bill

Heinleinsmof: Howdy

fgherman: We all have taste

ddavitt: many on sff buffy group are big in heinlein fanworld too

fgherman: HI Bill

ddavitt: Hi Bill

DavidWrightSr: Maybe we could discuss that topic sometime. See what the connection might be.

ddavitt: We are just about to start, getting some topics lined up

Sacademy: Did you all choose those colors for your screen names? I can’t read half of them

Heinleinsmof: Buffy?

ddavitt: No SA it’s AIM doing it to us automatically

Heinleinsmof: Everyone’s but mine is in blue on my screen

fgherman: same here

ddavitt: They are horrible colours aren’t they?

geeairmoe2: All my names are blue.

ddavitt: I have green, purple orange…real rainbow

DavidWrightSr: All I see is blue for names, black for text and Red for my own name

ddavitt: Will, you are yellow

Sacademy: I bet you all don’t have the most recent AIM

ddavitt: Orange for dave

geeairmoe2: I fear nothing!

ddavitt: That may be it; i upgraded

ddavitt: :-)Will I know that.

Sacademy: Me, too. What color do I have?

Sacademy: It’s red here.

ddavitt: You are dark greenSA

RMLWJ1: You’re green on my screen, ma’am.

Sacademy: At least that is visible.

ddavitt: I am red

ddavitt: To me anyway

Sacademy: You aren’t color blind, are you?

fgherman: remind not to upgrade if that’s what happens

DavidWrightSr: Everyone’s own name should be in red. I don’t know what controls the other colors

RMLWJ1: The colours are random, assigned as folks come onto the chat room.

ddavitt: Yes, good topic; if you like Heinlein then you’ll like…X

ddavitt: No deep significance then…

fgherman: lol

ddavitt: So; ready to chat?

ddavitt: offically that is?:-)

Sacademy: Have you seen my guests, David?

DavidWrightSr: Djedpar is here. Hang on. I’ll invite him in

Sacademy: Thank you.

DavidWrightSr: Done. No response yet.

DjedPar has entered the room.

Sacademy: Good evening, Denis.

DavidWrightSr: Vot On.

DavidWrightSr: I mean There he is

ddavitt: Who sent me the screen picture of the cat? Lovely picture…

DjedPar: Good Evening

ddavitt: Welcome Denis

DavidWrightSr: Welcomd Denis

fgherman: Welcome Denis

DjedPar: Thank you

Sacademy: Denis was the first member of THS

fgherman: wow

ddavitt: ditto

DavidWrightSr: Congratulations. One of these days, I am going to try to afford joining.

DavidWrightSr: But I just spent my father’s day gift on Bill’s new book.

Sacademy: Have you read it yet?

ddavitt: I have my order in too

DavidWrightSr: Not supposed to be delivered until the 18th I believe

Sacademy: What is Bill doing, reading his email?

DavidWrightSr: Being modest, I presume

ddavitt: I have read it online but it makes my head ache

DjedPar: ;-)

ddavitt: Not the book; that method

DavidWrightSr: It’s online. Where?

Sacademy: No one lkes to read books online as far as I can tell.

ddavitt: No; Bill sent it to me

ddavitt: To critique for the Journal

DavidWrightSr: Ok then, I’ll try not to pout too much.

Heinleinsmof: Hi — I was courting a headache by looking in at AFH

Sacademy: Do you have to get it in for the July issue, Jane?

ddavitt: I promised I would still buy it

ddavitt: Hope not!

DavidWrightSr: I’m really anxious to get Phil Owenby’s book.

Heinleinsmof: Well, yes, the July issue was what I had in mind.

ddavitt: Oh dear..you didn’t say that.

Heinleinsmof: Hey — I told you you would get a comp copy for review.

ddavitt: OK, I will do my best.

ddavitt: I’ve read it but online is hard to flip back abd forth

Heinleinsmof: I can hold the deadline if it is necessary

ddavitt: I can’t take it in as well as a book

ddavitt: No; i will do it. I promised

Heinleinsmof: It is hard to read it in Acrobat format, isn’t it? The Acrobat navigation isn’t very convenient, eit

Heinleinsmof: her

ddavitt: I just started to look at a new project with Tim Morgan

fgherman: brb

ddavitt: Researching the dedication names

ddavitt: He mentioned he began it; sounds like fun

Heinleinsmof: I hadn’t heard from him in awhile, so I wondered how it was going

ddavitt: He said it had stalled a bit

ddavitt: But I think we could all pitch in and do it.

ddavitt: L’Envoi is done so we need a new challenge:-)

Heinleinsmof: Did he get all the 30 or so dedications to Friday?

ddavitt: I don’t think so; he emailed me what he had

ddavitt: I haven’t had chance to look at it in detail; this only came up this afternoon

Sacademy: Someone got all but two, and sent a copy to them all for signatures.

ddavitt: But I think he has just the easy ones like Doc Smith

Heinleinsmof: When the book came out I recognized about 80% of the names — a lot of them are sf writers.

ddavitt: That was enterprising!

Heinleinsmof: It’s a historical document.

ddavitt: i started today by doing the books chronologically as I thought that might be useful

ddavitt: L’Envoi list may have some answers too if we compare them.

ddavitt: Some of the books don’t have dedications in my editions

Sacademy: I helped Francesco with that envoi list.

ddavitt: You nailed it down Ginny

ddavitt: It’s now 100% done after a very long time

Sacademy: Yes. But then I was on the inside on that.

ddavitt: You had an advantage:-)

DjedPar: Ginny has more energy than all of us.

Sacademy: Well, Yes. Was that unfair?

ddavitt: If we try and track down all the dedications and get totally stuck may we ask you for help on that?

ddavitt: I promise we’ll try on our own as much as possible

Sacademy: Of course.

ddavitt: Thanks! That is the sort of thing I enjoy; like a cryptic crossword.

Sacademy: They were all the children of close friends for the juvies.

Sacademy: Well, most of them

ddavitt: I wondered if Diane and Clark were the neighbours who Poddy and Clark were based on?

ddavitt: I remember you said Clark was real

Sacademy: Yes. Last name Russell. Jim R. owned the local TV station.

ddavitt: Star Beast was dedicated to them

ddavitt: Cool! Got one!

Sacademy: Any others?

ddavitt: Too many to list..

Sacademy: Then send me an email about it.

ddavitt: I’ll work on it and see what gaps are left

ddavitt: Will do.

Sacademy: Okay

ddavitt: I suppose we should start the chat…

geeairmoe2: Chat subject is … ?

ddavitt: We are looking at the world dan Davis slept his way to; 2000/1

ddavitt: What did Heinlein imagine it was like back in 1955 and where did we fail to measure up

DavidWrightSr: As Felicia said earlier to me. Where’s my flying car?

ddavitt: What did Heinlein miss and why/ What made us go off at a tangent?

DavidWrightSr: and that was for 1970, not 2000

ddavitt: Quite…that was a staple of SF that hasn’t really come

RMLWJ1: Well, gold is still a commdity, not an engineering metal.

RMLWJ1: commodity

ddavitt: Yes; 1970 in the book had lots that we still don’t have. we are way behind

ddavitt: Is there any sign of that changing?

DjedPar: No

ddavitt: I don’t understand economics that well.

DavidWrightSr: I expect that we will have robots along his lines in the not too distant future. They are making…

DavidWrightSr: a lot of progress

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think anyone imagined the political barriers that have been placed in the way of technical

Heinleinsmof: development

ddavitt: Paper money needs gold behind it to make it worth something?

ddavitt: Who checks to make sure the gold’s all there?

Heinleinsmof: Or the strange twists the economy has taken when it changed over to more government than private

Heinleinsmof: sectoriun about 1967

ddavitt: We could have the robots but do we want them? We seem very conservative about some things

DavidWrightSr: Well, actually, gold is used a lot on high quality circuit boards.

Heinleinsmof: If it weren’t for spinoffs from the space program we’d have been in deep doo-doo

ddavitt: But that’s a practical use; putting it in Fort Knox seems like a game

Heinleinsmof: Why a “game”?

ddavitt: Too many topics here; can we pick one/ I’m getting sprained fingers:-)

ddavitt: OK, let’s do gold then

ddavitt: Game because it’s not enough is it?

ddavitt: Isn’t there more paper than gold? isn’t that inflation?

ddavitt: So what’s the point?

Heinleinsmof: But the gold IS the money; the paper are just representations. Yes, it is inflation. The point is,

Heinleinsmof: it’s a”free” tax

ddavitt: If we all took our paper and demanded our gold ( as maureen did in sail) it would tumble down

Heinleinsmof: That’s why all governments inflate — it’s a form of taxation.

ddavitt: It’s cheating if you ask me

Heinleinsmof: No — the price of gold would rise until it equalled the demand.

ddavitt: So why do you think Heinlein had it disappear?

Sacademy: Governments love inflating their currencies.

ddavitt: Dan davis used plastic money; wonder what backed it up?

Heinleinsmof: The kicker is that Heinlein liked the Social Credit monetary theory, which is an abstraction backed

ddavitt: Printing their own money; very tempting.

Heinleinsmof: by productive capacity

ddavitt: What does that mean? Workers, resources?

Heinleinsmof: DD’s plastic money was probably the same as the Federal Reserve Note — a promise to default if the

RMLWJ1: Hmm. GDP will do it, actually.

Heinleinsmof: government gets into trouble.

geeairmoe2: Would it somehow relate to the bit about Dan’s job of crushing new cars?

ddavitt: That was very funny!

Heinleinsmof: The economic system described in Beyond This Horizon is closely related to Social Credit.

ddavitt: When he asked why they were poor quality and was told they were made to be crushed..

ddavitt: Pointless make work

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

ddavitt: To keep people in jobs

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: revolving door today, Will?

ddavitt: Why is it so quiet suddenly?

geeairmoe2: Gremlins all over.

DjedPar: Anyone want to talk about Pete?

RMLWJ1: Kind of like Brazil and coffee.

ddavitt: Oh yes! He was a great character

ddavitt: The conversations with him were a bit like Kip and Oscar

ddavitt: But he wasn’t exactly a prediction:-) There will always be cats.

DjedPar: Sorry

ddavitt: No; he is a driving force in the book; he is very important

ddavitt: No need to be sorry.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t be cats are always on-topic in a Heinlein discussion

DjedPar: Still too quiet. He inspired the book.

DavidWrightSr: No one has yet discussed the primary missed prediction. ‘Cold Sleep’.

ddavitt: One important overlap there actually; not many H fans who don’t like cats

ddavitt: We can do that now dave; it was all coming thick and fast that’s all

ddavitt: There is a lot to look at. GA with cold sleep; ‘many are cold, but few are frozen’ and all that

ddavitt: Surprised Cryo didn’t pop up in the pre meet posts on this issue

DavidWrightSr: ‘cold sleep’ figures in a lot of RAH’s books. at least a half-dozen or so that I can think of..

DavidWrightSr: off the top of my head

ddavitt: We certainly have missed out on this as it was around from the 1960’s for Dan

ddavitt: Tunnel…BTH maybe?

SandySandfort has entered the room.

ddavitt: What others?

ddavitt: Hi there.

fgherman: Hello Sandy

SandySandfort: Hi

Sacademy: Good evening, Sandy.

DavidWrightSr: Between Planets. Methusalehs’ Children,

Sacademy: Glad you made it.

RMLWJ1: cold sleep seems pretty far off, at this point.

ddavitt: We are looking at cold sleep as part of a discussion on Heinlein’s predictions for 200 in Door

SandySandfort: Hi, you’ll have to excuse any ineptitude. I don’t have much chat experenience.

DavidWrightSr: Well maybe not as many as I thought.

ddavitt: Just leap in when you want to Sandy

ddavitt: Time For The Start perhaps?

ddavitt: Stars I mean

ddavitt: It’s a useful plot device of course

ddavitt: And as an option it’s one that has had a lot of air time on afh

DavidWrightSr: BTH didn’t have cold sleep. it had the stasis field

ddavitt: Not many people seem keen on it

ddavitt: true

geeairmoe2: Didn’t Beyond This Horizon have a character wake up from cold sleep?

ddavitt: And it wasn’t common was it?

geeairmoe2: He tried to explain football.

ddavitt: It was stasis…can’t recall the details. He was tricked

DjedPar: Cold sleep may not be too far off. Look at what they do with blood.

ddavitt: I think it’s still a way off…have they even revived an animal yet?

ddavitt: And with an animal, hard to assess brain damage and such

RMLWJ1: not to my knowledge.

Heinleinsmof: Hi, Sandy. Long Time No See (it’s Bill Patterson)

ddavitt: Would people here do it if it were as safe as it was for Dan?

DjedPar: I used to freeze frogs for pregnancy tests.

SandySandfort: Hi Bill, yeah it’s been a while

ddavitt: Yuck

ddavitt: Friday always strikes me as old fashioned because on the spaceship they don’t have pregnancy kits…

Sacademy: Nasty of you, Denis!

ddavitt: Now you can find out the day after your period should have started; real advances there in a short

ddavitt: space of time. damn this word limit!

fgherman has left the room.

DjedPar has left the room.

RMLWJ1: Even serum pregnancy tests are shaky that early.

DjedPar has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: At least with the old version, it stops you and won’t let you go on. The new version accepts….

ddavitt: I have done it very early and got a result

DavidWrightSr: everything and then gives you a stupid message about being too complex

ddavitt: i am impatient:-)

ddavitt: Anyway, that’s one area we have gone beyond what Heinlein imagined…but we are still failing on most

Sacademy: :-D

ddavitt: of the important ones.

ddavitt: To my mind, space travel is the biggie

RMLWJ1: We need a permanent space station.

Sacademy: It’s out there. Want to pay millions for it?

ddavitt: ALL the books have it as a given…lunar colonies, travel to mars/Venus at least…

DjedPar: Amen to that

RMLWJ1: Then we can mine the asteroids.

DavidWrightSr: You know. When I think of it Door had no mention of space travel did it. It had ‘null grav’ …..

ddavitt: Yes; there are millions of us. i can give a dollar; if we all did, there it is, paid for

DavidWrightSr: but it couldn’t be used (yet) for spaceships

ddavitt: Door had a Venus colony

geeairmoe2: In Grumbles RAH notes ‘Door’ had Martians, then he chucked it out.

DavidWrightSr: I didn’t recall that about the Venus colony

ddavitt: maybe i’m going mad…

DavidWrightSr: You are probably right.

ddavitt: Sire I saw it but I just found the bit about no space travel

ddavitt: perhaps they have ST but just not with null grav

DavidWrightSr: Well, if it is there, it’s a total blank in my memory. :-)

geeairmoe2: Topping my memory of ‘Door’ is Dan’s job of crushing cars never meant to be used.

ddavitt: can’t find my notes for the chat; i will withdraw it:-)

Sacademy: That’s satire on government doings.

DjedPar: Thanks Ginny

ddavitt: They have a lunar shuttle; in the headlines of the paper he reads when he wakes up

Sacademy: Most of you won’t remember when the WPA had its heyday.

ddavitt: Got it!

Sacademy: GA

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: He says they’ve beat the common cold

Sacademy: WB Felicia

ddavitt: ‘that meant more to me than the research colony on Venus”

fgherman: @#$% machine

ddavitt: phew; thought i was starting to imagine things

DjedPar: ditto!

Sacademy: No, it’s AOL

ddavitt: Sleep deprivation can do that to you….

geeairmoe2: Prediction missed: weather control. Rain the same time every day.

ddavitt: Do they have that?

ddavitt: That I missed.

ddavitt: Probably too busy drooling over the idea of shirts that don’t need ironing…

ddavitt: It’s the little things that matter

DavidWrightSr: ‘Sticktite’

DavidWrightSr: sounds a little like spandex ?

fgherman: That’s “Sticktootite”

ddavitt: Yes; I remember my first pair of lycra leggings

Sacademy: Like a jammed zipper.

DavidWrightSr: There was some comment about ‘what the ladies could do with sticktite…’

ddavitt: Superskin eat your heart out:-)

ddavitt: If it stuck to skin it would be a good fabric to work in

DavidWrightSr: You know. he did get the bank access feature exactly right on.

ddavitt: Could be daring with it as it would still cover you where needed and not slip

ddavitt: Nudist beaches though; not common at all in Canada which is pretty straitlaced

ddavitt: What about US? Are there many/

RMLWJ1: Kinda chilly too.

fgherman: all over, but none that I’ve been to.

ddavitt: We have some in UK and you can go topless with not many looks

ddavitt: On all beaches

Sacademy: Isn’t UK warmer than Canada?

ddavitt: Here in canda you would get arrested.

ddavitt: Yes on average but Canadian summers are much warmer

DavidWrightSr: No looks. They must be dead then 8-)

SandySandfort: I thought there was a nude beach in Vancouver near the University.

ddavitt: They are quite prudish; even men with no tops on get funny looks

Heinleinsmof: It’s odd, but that kind of thing has gone in and out of fashion several times since the book was

Heinleinsmof: written.

ddavitt: Might be private

ddavitt: Here in my town a woman went topless in a swimming pool to prove a point and was arrested

Heinleinsmof: But your town is “Tronna the Good”

Heinleinsmof: Presbyterian World Central

ddavitt: Small town an hour or so away.

ddavitt: Toronto, you can be fined for grass too long…:-(

ddavitt: Unheard of in UK

Heinleinsmof: I didn’t realize you were so far away from Yonge Street.

RMLWJ1: They can do that here also.

ddavitt: You mean The World’s Biggest Bookshop/?:-)

Sacademy: Jane, I forgot to tell you that Denis has Canadian and US citizenship

ddavitt: It’s a Bad Thing

RMLWJ1: If one doesn’t keep the lawn within certain limits, the city mows it, charges it to real estate taxes.

fgherman: Joel has dual citizenship also.

ddavitt: Oh really? i am still just British but I’ve been in Canada for 4 years now

ddavitt: Of course, my new baby is dual

geeairmoe2: ‘Grass Police’ used to mean cops looking for pot.

ddavitt: Now they’re looking for outlawed weeds

RMLWJ1: lol

ddavitt: Though there was a drug bust on our street last month; people turned basement into a cannabis factory.

Sacademy: Like cannabis?

Heinleinsmof: Just call them “lawn jockeys” as they ride their mowers.

ddavitt: we were described as an upscale suburb. LOL

ddavitt: Mowers that dan David would have had automated

ddavitt: Dan Davis

Sacademy: I used grow papaver somniferum until r. made me stop.

ddavitt: What is that Ginny?

fgherman: HOnda now has an automated mower

Heinleinsmof: I don’t recognize that from the botanical name.

ddavitt: Common name I mean?

Sacademy: Opium poppy

ddavitt: Ah..very pretty flowers

Heinleinsmof: Oh,of course. Yes.

Heinleinsmof: And a thumb to the nose of the busybodies.

Sacademy: Very pretty. Double

ddavitt: I’m sure we innocently grow lots of stuff that is illegal

ddavitt: wild bird seed sprouting and such

fgherman: all I can manage are chives, mint & crabgrass

Sacademy: I got the seed from the RHS

ddavitt: My oregano and lemon balm are taking over the border

RMLWJ1: My mother used to have a huge bed of digitalis.

Heinleinsmof: Trust the Brits to have an interest in the opium poppy.

ddavitt: I’m sure you’d need a lot of flowers to make whatever it is you make

ddavitt: part of our heritage…

Sacademy: Only foxglove. That’s not illegal.

Heinleinsmof: Foxglove is a very common plant

DjedPar: I still do. Have a bed of digitalis

ddavitt: Poisonous though..digitalis

ddavitt: Heart medicine

Heinleinsmof: Heck, Belladona is a landscaping plant, too.

DjedPar: So is Rhubarb leaf

ddavitt: It’s pretty too; I like wildflowers

RMLWJ1: It can be. Digitalis tea is an old remedy for angina.

Heinleinsmof: You’ve got to rememeber, there was no such thing as a prohibited plant in this country until about

Heinleinsmof: 1933

Sacademy: So is oleander, but everyone grows that.

ddavitt: Kudzu

Heinleinsmof: It’s a very recent thing.

SandySandfort: Don’t forget morning glories. Chew the seeds.

RMLWJ1: Yep. Jimson weed, too.

ddavitt: We have purple loosestrife taking over

DavidWrightSr: You got Kudzu in Canada?

Heinleinsmof: And in the southwest — yes, Jimson weed

ddavitt: But it’s so pretty i hate to pull it up

RMLWJ1: We see about a half-dozen cases a year of Jimson weed poisoning.

DjedPar: Kudzu is medicinal?

ddavitt: Field behind us in Uk used to have magic mushrooms

ddavitt: No; I meant it led to banned plants

ddavitt: Because it was so invasive

ddavitt: We are so off topic…..

DavidWrightSr: Tell me about it. I live in the South. We got kudzu everywhere.

Heinleinsmof: The laws against C. sativa were enacted in the 30’s — kudzu didn’t get to these shores until the 70′

ddavitt: I have never seen it

ddavitt: Erosion control wasn’t it?

RMLWJ1: Yeah.

RMLWJ1: Not cold enough down here to control it.

ddavitt: Link it to farmer; they were careful about what they took with them

Heinleinsmof: Gene splice it to grow stuff like soybeans

ddavitt: to Ganymede.

DjedPar: Back to cold sleep?

ddavitt: No one said if they would do it or not?

ddavitt: I would if I didn’t have family perhaps

Heinleinsmof: Where’s CryoRandy when you need him?

DavidWrightSr: Puhleeze

ddavitt: I know who to blame now Bill….

Heinleinsmof: It was completely innocent — I swear!

ddavitt: Or if i were ill

ddavitt: Or if i were ill

ddavitt: Hmm…

DavidWrightSr: If I had no family and had a terminal disease which I thought might be curable, I think

ddavitt: Sorry; it’s stiking tonight

DavidWrightSr: I’d do it….

ddavitt: I think it hasn’t gone and I press send twice

DavidWrightSr: If not just for the chance of seeing the future…

ddavitt: Yes; it is tempting

geeairmoe2: The judge in Dan’s vagrancy case seemed to dislike Sleepers.

ddavitt: It’s akin to immigrants though

geeairmoe2: Called it “dumping riff-raff on us” by their grandfathers.

ddavitt: people arriving who overload the system

DavidWrightSr: good analogy. immigrants from the past.

ddavitt: That never occurs to randy of course. he thinks he will be welcomed with open arms.

ddavitt: Mind boggles as to why

Heinleinsmof: Just think — generations of chat rooms that aren’t wise to his rants!

ddavitt: We would be primitives, disease ridden and ignorant

ddavitt: Vermin…

DavidWrightSr: Aside from the technical problems, the notion of entrusting myself to some institution would….

DavidWrightSr: bother me

ddavitt: Yes; so many opportunities for a scam

fgherman: We would also be living history

geeairmoe2: And that’s assuming their will be a future to be unfrozen in.

ddavitt: A note of optimism!

DjedPar: That’s the only technical difficulty.

ddavitt: Yes, what would we do know with an Ancient eygptian say?

DjedPar: Trusting the freezers

Heinleinsmof: But if there isn’t such a future– we’ll never know it.

Heinleinsmof: So in that sense, it’s a good bed.

ddavitt: Though it wouldn’t be that far back probably; someone from 1970 would be of no value historically

Heinleinsmof: But think of the entertainment value!

ddavitt: Dan had trouble getting a job remember

ddavitt: What about those cerise bell bottoms?

ddavitt: heinlein really got that right…but should have had it for the 1970 bit of the book, not the 2000 part

geeairmoe2: Pet rocks and mood rings. Disco.

fgherman: Please don’t remind me

ddavitt: I remember flares but I was about 11 or 12….

ddavitt: I never wore platform shoes; my mum wouldn’t let me and I thought they were silly

fgherman: I remember hot pants (ugh)

DjedPar: What did RAH think of bellbottoms?

Sacademy: Robrt liked the hot pants.

ddavitt: Colin in cat wears lime green jump suit

DavidWrightSr: A man of good taste.

geeairmoe2: Vertical-stripped bell bottoms. I’ve an old photograph that needs burning.

ddavitt: Hmm…:-)

DavidWrightSr: Robert not Colin

DjedPar: Robert had excellent taste. Very proper.

geeairmoe2: Leisure suits.

ddavitt: Like most revealing fashions it depends on who’s in ‘em

Sacademy: Remember those chest protector ties?

geeairmoe2: Never took drugs and I’m still having horrible flashbacks.

RMLWJ1: My dad had a few.

DjedPar: What?

ddavitt: I used to go out dressed in practically nothing; now I’d get looks but not admiring ones…

ddavitt: What were they Ginny?

Heinleinsmof: Reminds me of sf conventions in the early 70’s with their “Most naked costume” competitions.

ddavitt: You mean the really wide ones?

Sacademy: Great big ties–flared out from the knot

geeairmoe2: Streaking!

ddavitt: Sounds intriguing..

DjedPar: I still have some.

ddavitt: Oh yes, i know what you mean now!

Sacademy: Do you wear them Denis?

DjedPar: Good for teasing the cat.

DjedPar: Not often.

Sacademy: Happy to hear that.

Heinleinsmof: We seem to be off topic again — how about a 10 minute break as we are halfway into the session?

Heinleinsmof: (so are his colleagues, Ginny!)

ddavitt: OK but I will be leaving soonsish

Heinleinsmof: Do you want to have the break later?

ddavitt: As it’s getting to my bedtime. But I’m sure someone can take over

DjedPar: Time for a coffee?

ddavitt: No; ga and break

Heinleinsmof: Hilf sich

ddavitt: I will prop open eyes as long as poss

Sacademy: Coffee? At this hour????

Heinleinsmof: Ok — we’re on break until 7:45 PDT

fgherman: I need a martini – brb

ddavitt: Time travellers….10.36 for me

RMLWJ1: Yeah

SandySandfort: Thanks all, I’m off for tonight.

ddavitt: I could drink a gallon and still fall asleep i think. lauren is teething and I was up lots last night

SandySandfort has left the room.

ddavitt: Glad you could make it sandy

Sacademy: Bye, Sandy

ddavitt: darn…too late

ddavitt: brb

ddavitt: back…

fgherman: back

geeairmoe2: These chats need an easy way to provide intermission music.

ddavitt: I hate that stuff on phones!

ddavitt: Drives me mad when i’m on hold and it’s in my ear

Heinleinsmof: Can somebody invite Dehede03 into the room? My Buddy List doesn’t show him.

geeairmoe2: I hate those calls where they ask you to wait for one of their operators.

ddavitt: Ill try

DavidWrightSr: He’s still only on AOL, not on AIM yet.

ddavitt: Oh Ok then

Dehede03 has entered the room.

Sacademy: I did it.

Dehede03: Hey thanx Ginny

Heinleinsmof: He just got called afk

ddavitt: I only had Dehede011

DavidWrightSr: Ah. A different screen name from what I had

ddavitt: Same here

Heinleinsmof: He’s back.

ddavitt: Sounds ominous..Hi Ron

fgherman: Hello

Dehede03: Hi folks.

Sacademy: Evening, Ron

Dehede03: Evening Ginny

ddavitt: We are about to start again after a break

Dehede03: I see Jane here also

Sacademy: How’s the dancing?

DavidWrightSr: 011 = 03 in binary :-)

Dehede03: Hail, hail, the gangs all here.

ddavitt: I said hi but maybe you weren’t back in the room

ddavitt: Hi:-)

Dehede03: Haven’t been dancing lately but I want to restart soon.

ddavitt: So it is dave!

DavidWrightSr: Does anyone have Sandy’s e-mail. She sent it to me, but I forgot to save it and closed the ……

DavidWrightSr: IM window.

Dehede03: Hi, Dave if I don’t speak to you Jane will horse whip me.

ddavitt: Why will I?!

ddavitt: That makes me sound so mean…

Dehede03: Maybe you won’t but my boxing coach told me there were two things I should never do to my face.

Heinleinsmof: Are we back for topic?

ddavitt: We are looking at Heinlein’s predictions

Dehede03: He said that I should never kiss an alligator or mess with a woman

Heinleinsmof: Wise advice.

DavidWrightSr: Is there a difference?

DjedPar: How about a frog?

ddavitt: Where’s that horsewhip?

Dehede03: Yes, alligators don’t get as deadly.

Sacademy: A frozen one?

Heinleinsmof: You have a monopoly on messing with frogs?

DavidWrightSr: True

RMLWJ1: Ladies, gents, I’m going to have to call it an evening. EArly shift tomorrow.

ddavitt: I declare this subject incendiary

RMLWJ1: It’s been a pleasure.

Heinleinsmof: burning frogs now?

Dehede03: He said I only need to know how to say three things.

DavidWrightSr: Night Leon. Thanks for coming

Heinleinsmof: Aleister Crowley has nothing on you

ddavitt: I’m all sympathy there

fgherman: Good night Leon

RMLWJ1: Thank you for inviting me.

DjedPar: French Canadians are sometimes called frogs. Even the pretty ones

Dehede03: Nite leon

Sacademy: Good night Leon. It’s my time to go, too. I’m late tonight.

RMLWJ1: do svidaniya

ddavitt: Night ; thanks for coming

DavidWrightSr: vam tozhe

Heinleinsmof: vsyevo xoroshova

ddavitt: Night SA, see you soon.

RMLWJ1: Nice chattiing with you, ma’am.

RMLWJ1 has left the room.

fgherman: Good night Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Nite Ginny

Sacademy: Urk, Bill, your Russian is poor. Bye

Sacademy has left the room.

ddavitt: I’m still puzzled Ron but , let it go, I’m feeling merciful.

ddavitt: On with the topic before Bill shour=ts at me

Heinleinsmof: I would never shour=ts at you.

geeairmoe2: RAH mentions slang changes. Dan mentions telling a woman he was a Sleeper …

geeairmoe2: … and almost is punched out by her husband.

DavidWrightSr: and ‘service stations’

ddavitt: He used the word ‘kink’

ddavitt: that was why he got hit almost

Heinleinsmof: Oh, frell!

geeairmoe2: A ‘host’ took your coat and had nothing to do with the birth rate.

ddavitt: I think that is a given; obvious one is gay

ddavitt: We see word shift all the time in a very short space nowadays

ddavitt: Look at the new words coined for the net.

ddavitt: ‘net’ itself now has another meaning

ddavitt: “flame war’ isn’t literal anymore

fgherman: Let’s not forget spam (as if we could)

Dehede03: Right, I constantly amazed by shifts in meaning.

ddavitt: Good one!

geeairmoe2: The net has another definition of ‘host’.

Heinleinsmof: Spam, spam, Spam, Spam, spamity-spam!

fgherman: (bloody Vikings”

geeairmoe2: But I don’t like spam!

ddavitt: I think that wasn’t a prediction so much…or was it a little slower back in the 50’s?

ddavitt: Was language more set in stone then?

Heinleinsmof: No — there were a lot of additions to the language from the 20’s to the end of WWII

fgherman: no no daddio

Dehede03: No, slang changed and swept the nation overnight even back in the fifties.

DavidWrightSr: Not really, but increases in communication will always make language change faster.

Dehede03: sure

Dehede03: In about 48 TV swept the nation and slang spread much faster.

ddavitt: So, that wasn’t a prediction then exactly, more an extrapolation

geeairmoe2: Rap Musice phrases are sliding into the mainstream.

Heinleinsmof: I like the way chatrooms are streamlining the language — afaik.

Heinleinsmof: IMO

Heinleinsmof: afk

Heinleinsmof: etc.

ddavitt: What about the net and personal computers?Heinlein didn’t have that at all

DavidWrightSr: Radio and TV also has had a lot to do in leveling out differences in some dialectical differences

DjedPar: Tower of babel?

ddavitt: Because in 1955 there was no hint of it and it would have required

ddavitt: a total leap in the dark?

Heinleinsmof: The idea of a personal computer was completely out of the paradigm in 1955

DavidWrightSr: Remember 1955. Computers were giant machines and cost millions.

ddavitt: i.e he predicted an oak from an acorn but the acorn had to be there

Heinleinsmof: After all, it wasn’t so long before that that IBM predicted there would never be a need for more than

ddavitt: I’m not blaming him; just trying to work it out

Heinleinsmof: 6 computers in the whole world

ddavitt: Heh; easy to laugh now i suppose

fgherman: And even if you have the acorn, you don’t know which way the oak will grow

ddavitt: Like the man who said rockets couldn’t work in the 1950’s

geeairmoe2: The Wright Bros thought planes would only carry mail.

fgherman: Such as lasers to personal CD players

Heinleinsmof: The Starman Jones scenario was in the paradigm — but the personal computer and internet wasn’t

ddavitt: The tree can go off in all directions yes. impossible to preict; too many variables

Heinleinsmof: And the cascade effect from personal computing to computation-intensive areas of math that had been

Heinleinsmof: neglected before —

ddavitt: SJ was simply updating existing navigational techniques; Life on Missisipsi parallel

Heinleinsmof: to chaos mathematics, fractals, Mandelbaum sets, to 21st century science.

Heinleinsmof: Catastrophe theory.

ddavitt: That freebootr pointed out

ddavitt: I don’t think in 1955 ANYONE could have predicted what we are all doing here tonight

Heinleinsmof: Everything cascades from everything else — miss one and a big chunk of the future disappears from

Heinleinsmof: your thinking

ddavitt: Yet people in 1905 might have been able to predict 1955

ddavitt: Becasue they had started to move to cars and planes

Dehede03: Good night everyone, see you sat.

Heinleinsmof: I don’t know –the predictions made around 1905 were pretty wide of the 1950 mark.

ddavitt: Night Ron

fgherman: Good night

Dehede03 has left the room.

Heinleinsmof: Has anybody read Ralph124C41+?

DjedPar: Bye

fgherman: I still want my flying car

DavidWrightSr: But as Heinlein pointed out in EU, no one could have predicted the secondary results of such things

ddavitt: Which ones? By Wells maybe?

Heinleinsmof: I was thinking more of Hugo Gernsback.

ddavitt: Ah..

Heinleinsmof: RAlph was about 1911, I think.

ddavitt: Don’t know them. Know his name. What did he think then?

fgherman: Prediction tends to be linear

fgherman: History doesn’t alway work that way

Heinleinsmof: Jet propelled roller skates.

Heinleinsmof: Wecan give him visiphones; that had been a solid prediction for awhile by then.

ddavitt: We could have them

DjedPar: That’s scary.

ddavitt: Do have videophones

DavidWrightSr: That’s what the losians used in Citizen.

fgherman: We don’t want them

ddavitt: No way!

fgherman: The techs been there for years

ddavitt: Too invasive

fgherman: exactly

DavidWrightSr: Well with computers tied in, you could have the vidophone show only a great image of yourself.

ddavitt: I like privacy on the phone; no need to tidy up

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

fgherman: Cell phones

DjedPar: That’s scary too!

ddavitt: I don’t have one…don’t see the need

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

geeairmoe2: The trick in predicting the future is figuring out what people in that future will see …

fgherman: Not predicted…look at the impact

geeairmoe2: … as things indispensible to their copmfort.

ddavitt: Well, I need my computer now; I’m hooked

geeairmoe2: What things can we do without now that will be necessicites in the future.

Heinleinsmof: I just finished up a month in Santa Cruz where I was utterly dependent on my computer.

geeairmoe2: Spell checkers, maybe.

fgherman: The Newton didn’t take off, but the Palm Pilot did.

geeairmoe2: VHS instead of Beta.

ddavitt: maybe airconditioning if the global warming continues?

geeairmoe2: Personal, self-contained air conditioned clothing?

DavidWrightSr: Neil Smith’s Smartsuits

ddavitt: I will have to go now; I don’t know about saturday; if i can’t make it, I think dave Silver will host

geeairmoe2: Complete with your Palm Pilot.

fgherman: Good night Jane

Heinleinsmof: Smartsuits! Yeah!

ddavitt: If not, I’m sure you can all do a great job of self hosting!

…………. part of log lost ………

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: I show you as being in the room, David.

DavidWrightSr: Well, my shortcut does work, I thought it was off when no one was here.

DavidWrightSr: I guess I’ll have to just post what I had up to my getting kicked off.

Heinleinsmof: I didn’t think to keep a log — I got kicked off shortly before that.

DavidWrightSr: Things sure cleared out in a hurry. I wasn’t gone more than 2-3 minutes.

Heinleinsmof: Jane left and the party kinda died down.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll check with Jane. she usually saves it, but if not, then we’re not missing anything too important.

Heinleinsmof: OK — I’ve finished all my online stuff, so I’m going by-by,

Heinleinsmof: Have fun.

DavidWrightSr: Good night then.

Heinleinsmof: ciao

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:30 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 05-26-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT “Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 05-26-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

“Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings

Click Here to Return to Index

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi David

AGplusone: Hi, David … madly typing into IM windows

AGplusone: sorry I didn’t get here swiftly

DavidWrightSr: That’s ok. Did you see the log. We are apparently now limited to 100 characters. Bummer

AGplusone: Yes, lowest common denominator, back down to the 81 or 79 limit in AOL rooms

KultsiKN has entered the room.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi, Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Hi Kultsi

KultsiKN: Good evening all!

SAcademy: Hello David

SAcademy: Hello Kultsi

DavidWrightSr: AIM has cut us to about 100 characters. It’s somewhat of a pain.

KultsiKN: The new version?

SAcademy: Really? What happens then? Do we talk in Wagnerian telegraphese?

AGplusone: But if you use a lot of …s when you are trying to express a long thought, you can get through it

AGplusone: No, it’s a little longer still than the 81 characters the AOL (on-AOL) rooms give you.

DavidWrightSr: Version doesn’t matter, except new version lets you type all you wont’ but then won’t send it

DavidWrightSr: wont=want

KultsiKN: Uh-huh.

AGplusone: It rings an alert when you hit the limit … mine alert is a bell

AGplusone: my alert

SAcademy: I suppose that would frustrate some!

AGplusone: and if I type fast I have to stop and wait for all the bells to stop ringing

AGplusone: before I can send

SAcademy: I’ve lost all the sound effects. Have to get someone in to fix them

fgherman has entered the room.

KultsiKN: S’thing good in being a slow typist.

AGplusone: [I did read your log Dave and got here early to test that aspect … was hoping it wouldn’t limit Macs

AGplusone: ]

AGplusone: Hit the limit with that sentence.

DavidWrightSr: Limit appears to be on server, not client.

fgherman: Hello all

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia … did I get it right this time?

KultsiKN: Too popular, I s’pose.

fgherman: Yes you did

AGplusone: great

SAcademy: Good afternoon

DavidWrightSr: Nope. my pc doesn’t give me any warning at all.

AGplusone: Hope you like Three Men in a boat

DavidWrightSr: when I overtype

AGplusone: Maybe you should get a Mac, Dave …

SAcademy: Especially the can of pineapple!


DavidWrightSr: Heaven forbid :-)

DavidWrightSr: BRB. got to feed the animals and take my medicine

AGplusone: I loved the pineapple can … and opener

AGplusone: Okay, we’ll start in about five minutes. How’s Joel, Felicia?

fgherman: He’s coming down with the same cold I’ve got, but otherwise, ok

AGplusone: Hope it’s not the same one I fought off Thursday and Friday

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Jon, welcome

OakMan 7111: Hello, all

fgherman: Hello Jon

OakMan 7111: Hi David

KultsiKN: Hello, Jon!

SAcademy: Hello

fgherman: I’ve dragged myself away from Cloudmakers

OakMan 7111: Wow, what a warm greeting, thanks

AGplusone: Ahhh … what is Cloudmakers?

OakMan 7111: good. I made a point of being home in time to catch this chat

fgherman: That’s the group following the mystery game that’s part of A.I. the new Spielberg movie

fgherman: very addictive

AGplusone: They’re starting to promo that movie … heavily

fgherman: If the movie is half is good as the mystery is should be a knockout

SAcademy: I can promise you one thing. I am not going to see it.

fgherman: Why not

SAcademy: Hate movies.

fgherman: That’s a good reason

SAcademy: They ruin everything. But they’re good for selling books.

fgherman: I love movies, especially Kubrick movies

AGplusone: Lately there haven’t been a good many good ones.

fgherman: And this is based on a script he developed from the Brian Aldiss story.

fgherman: I don’t think books translate well into movies

KultsiKN: Did they mutilate the story?

fgherman: Short stories on the other hand…

OakMan 7111: I just purchased a “Fine” copy of the 1950 Astounding in which RAH writes of the making

fgherman: Haven’t read the Aldiss story

OakMan 7111: of “destination Moon”

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Second time I’ve owned that edition – last time it cost me fifty cents

fgherman: Puppetmasters wasn’t half bad

AGplusone: Is there anything in it that isn’t in the collection Requiem, Jon? Like photos, etc.?

AGplusone: Hi, Bill, welcome

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill

SAcademy: Only the other half.

Heinleinsmof: Howdy

fgherman: At least it wasn’t “Starship Showgirls”

fgherman: Heloo Bill

siannon secundus has entered the room.

SAcademy: I can’t read that color at all.

KultsiKN: Secundus?

OakMan 7111: Welcome Jani!

AGplusone: Better than Project Moonbase, I hope.

fgherman: Hello Jani

AGplusone: You are Jani?

siannon secundus: No I am!

siannon secundus: Hi everyone, assorted hugs and so on :-)

SAcademy: Bill, that’s even worse.

AGplusone: Okay, let’s start … ’tis close enough to the beginning.

AGplusone: Everyone is sending in black and bold?

OakMan 7111: The cover is a pic – thats the only one

AGplusone: Has any1 read Jane’s piece in the Heinlein Journal about Three Men in a Boat and Number of the Beast?

KultsiKN: Jani, you’re too yellow…

siannon secundus: Yellow?

KultsiKN: Your name is all yellow, at least on my screen.

AGplusone: She suggests that among other things, Number is a tribute to some humor RAH enjoyed.

siannon secundus: Sorry kultsi, I don’t know how to change that …

AGplusone: Including Three Men in a Boat …

OakMan 7111: I think NoB is very very funny

AGplusone: Could we look at that first?

DavidWrightSr: GA

AGplusone: I think the four major characters in Number are take offs on the four characters in Boat … any agree

AGplusone: or dis agree?

AGplusone: Let me describe the four ….

AGplusone: 1. A know-it-all, who has no practical experience … RogerPilkey has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Hello Roger welcome

AGplusone: 2. A lazy get by with as little effort as possible …

fgherman: Hello Roger

AGplusone: 3. A builder of consensus, mild appearing, harboring a great intelligence RogerPilkey: hi, first time using aim, won’t talk much..

AGplusone: 4. a pugnacious fighter with everyone and everything

AGplusone: Hi, Roger … just finished my summary

AGplusone: In Boat, Harris is the know-it-all … I suggest someone in Number fits that description

Heinleinsmof: Jake

rjjusu has entered the room.

rjjusu: Hello campers

AGplusone: likewise, 2 is George, 3 is “J” or Jay, and 4 is Montmorcey …

AGplusone: Hi, Randy, we’re just starting … with a comparison of characters in Boat and in RAH’s Number of the

AGplusone: Beast

AGplusone: And I agree with Bill, Jake is the equivalent to Harris

siannon secundus: Oh, Hilda’s the dog, then?

Heinleinsmof: And HIlda, doubtless, with Montmorency

AGplusone: Any guesses as to who is whom? Exactly, Jani!

OakMan 7111: dog?

rjjusu: Now Jani, don’t be so …… catty?

siannon secundus: She’s too clever. More like a cat….

siannon secundus: Damn, Randy, beat me to it :-)

AGplusone: Montmorency … is a fox terrier that fights with everyone, and always starts things

Heinleinsmof: Named after the variety of cherries?

AGplusone: Doesn’t that remind you of Hilda, Sharpie, Corners …

siannon secundus: Cherries?

Heinleinsmof: That’s the only other Montmorency I know — except it’s named for the locale.

AGplusone: Where is Montmorency, Bill?

siannon secundus: I never heard of Montmorency cherries, that’s all

AGplusone: And what kind of cherry …

rjjusu: Given the usual dialog of Space Opera, one with cream on top.

Heinleinsmof: Poitiers? Anjou? Somewhere in southwestern France, I think

AGplusone: [there is, for cat lovers, a nifty little tidbit about Montmorency and a big black tom in Boat]

rjjusu: Anjou = Pears?

OakMan 7111: Isn’t Montmorency also known for its wine?

Heinleinsmof: I don’t recall — brandied cherries is the only association I have for Montmorency.

AGplusone: In any event, any guesses to the identity for the two who are left? Or dis agreement with my theory …

AGplusone: yes/no/bored stiff … indicate by “a” “b” or “c”

fgherman: Silence gives consent

fgherman: a

OakMan 7111: d: wishing I’d had time to check the suggested reading out

siannon secundus: B!

siannon secundus: I read Jane’s essay, but it was ages ago …

AGplusone: You can download Boat Jon …

DavidWrightSr: Me too. Just downloaded it Thursday morning.

OakMan 7111: I know – I had every intention of doing it last night.

DavidWrightSr: I posted the link on the log.

AGplusone: Jane doesn’t identify Hilda as that nasty little fox terrier, but …

KultsiKN: Gimme URL, pls.

[Editor’s Note: Link here for download]

OakMan 7111: (thats how I knew)

OakMan 7111: I do like that description of Hilda – except I’d put ‘brave’ in place of “little”

AGplusone: Turning to “humor” for a moment … why isn’t HSS-WT as cutting as say, for example, Number of the B

AGplusone: when it portrays the role of the taxman, for example …?

siannon secundus: Not as satirical?

AGplusone: That’s part of it, I think … anyone else?

Heinleinsmof: The whole of TNOTB is a romp, whereas in most other books, humor is incidental.

OakMan 7111: I wonder of Heinlein felt more assurred of commercial success and pulled fewer punches?

Heinleinsmof: And he uses different forms of humor, too — his whimsey can be startling.

siannon secundus: Yes, good point Bill

AGplusone: It’s a juvenile, of course, which meant it had to get by Eagle-Eye Dalglish

AGplusone: who might have felt that the most noble act we perform is being tax-givers

AGplusone: :-)

OakMan 7111: LOL

siannon secundus: Was she English ? :-)

AGplusone: Not sure … Ginny? Bill?

OakMan 7111: I’ve never thought of what I do on April 14th as “giving”

AGplusone: She was certainly an advocate of English children’s novels, Wind in the Willows, among others

Heinleinsmof: I’ve heard it said she was English,but have no support for that.

AGplusone: But Kip’s world is different from Deety’s, isn’t it?

OakMan 7111: Kip’s world is staid, isn’t it?

Heinleinsmof: Utopian fifties.

AGplusone: different in outrage factor, perhaps, fifties were utopian a bit

AGplusone: Everyone was complacent … the educators so complacent they started tinkering with the basic mechanis

AGplusone: mechanisms

DavidWrightSr: Aside from personalities, were there events in 3men that correspond to NOTB?

siannon secundus: Corkscrew

AGplusone: Yes, and with HSS-WT …

Heinleinsmof: There are actually two views of the fifties — placid utopia versus pressure cooker.

fgherman: I go with pressure cooker myself

AGplusone: but most felt at the time “it was the best of all possible worlds” … at least that’s what we were

AGplusone: told to believe.

Heinleinsmof: Both were true.

OakMan 7111: First ten years of my life – my judgement is skewed towards idyllic

siannon secundus: It seemed OK at the time (I was about four)

AGplusone: So, if you’re outraged with paying taxes, you pay in cash and depend on a very interesting odd deci-

AGplusone: sion from the Tax Court that said you didn’t have to keep records …

DavidWrightSr: Was it ever possible to actually get away with that?

AGplusone: Sure, the guy in the case that went up to the Court

OakMan 7111: pennies?

AGplusone: (pennies in a bucket of axle grease tended to really annoy the IRS, Jon)

Heinleinsmof: Hey, legal tender is legal tender.

DavidWrightSr: You mean, that’s how he paid his taxes ? O:-)

OakMan 7111: thats why you should make sure the grease is boiling….

AGplusone: Right, but as Kip’s dad says, “never knew a skunk welcome at a picnic”

rjjusu: not everything that is legal is right (or smart) and vice versa

SAcademy: I;ve had run ins with the Inland revenue in UK–IRS isn”t the only one that’s that way!

AGplusone: So bundles of bills was what Kip’s dad sent in … which got him a visit from his friendly “I’m from

AGplusone: the gobment and am here to he’p you” agent

siannon secundus: Hehehe Which is worse, SA, ours or yours?

fgherman: As Westlake’s Parker said, “You don’t mess with the Feds.”

Heinleinsmof: There were lots of interesting loopholes in the fifties — remember a film about a revenoo’er come to

Heinleinsmof: audit a family that bartered everything.

AGplusone: I agree: I once was ‘from the gubment and am here to he’p you’ I took it personally.

AGplusone: … of course I was young then …

AGplusone: But, and here’s the question: what does that sort of humor do?

SAcademy: OTOH–ever had an audit?

AGplusone: the poking of mild fun at the IRS …

fgherman: SA, don’t talk dirty

OakMan 7111: Only the CPA kind – and that was a pain but semi-self-inflicted

Heinleinsmof: I think it was more to characterize Kip’s family and background — well outside the box.

SAcademy: Try it sometime.

fgherman: I’ll pass, thank you

fgherman: Rather give birth again

AGplusone: [I once investigated a company run by a former IRS agent … I asked without a subpoena for all his…

SAcademy: Okay. I’m with you, but now and then they insist

siannon secundus: I had the VAT man when I was self-employed … that isn’t nice :-(

AGplusone: books and records and he then confessed, figuring I had the same powers the IRS had, and settled.]

Heinleinsmof: Obviously not a constitutional lawyer.

AGplusone: Nah, the penalty was that serious … life goes on was his feeling.

AGplusone: wasn’t

AGplusone: Back to my question above–what does the sort of humor we’re discussing do?

Heinleinsmof: Actually, I wonder what power the IRS actually has — it isn’t part of the government, you know.

siannon secundus: Subvert?

AGplusone: perhaps

AGplusone: what else

rjjusu: Reduce

SAcademy: Sense of humor makes you remember whaat is said in the book

AGplusone: … and … what else?

siannon secundus: Take a different perspective

Heinleinsmof: And shakes up peoples’ preconceptions, too — not everybody is in the nuclear family with 2.3 kids, e

Heinleinsmof: etc

AGplusone: What do you mean by “reduce” Randy?

Heinleinsmof: I guess that falls within “subvert”

fgherman: I remember that the more you had read, the more references you’d catch in NOTB

rjjusu: Humor is both a salve and a weapon

DavidWrightSr: Maybe what David means is that such …

DavidWrightSr: jokes tend to make you bypass the real invidiual and replace with a sterotype

DavidWrightSr: invidual=individual

AGplusone: “salve” is a great part of what I’m getting at …

siannon secundus: Reduce to size

fgherman: Say archtype instead of steroetype

OakMan 7111: When I was working in theatre, I developed a theory:

DavidWrightSr: I’m not sure of the difference.

OakMan 7111: Humor suggests that problems can be solved – tragedy suggests they can’t

AGplusone: Except the monkey that was at the end of the line in SiaSL wasn’t laughing … — it does, doesn’t it,

AGplusone: Jon.

DavidWrightSr: As someone said Thursday, humor is a way of coping with problems.

siannon secundus: Archetype is like an original, and stereotype is reducing individuals to a *type*

AGplusone: Maybe it’s the archetypical way of coping?

rjjusu: when someone is reduced by humor, they often have to

rjjusu: face up to the fact that they are not what they seem.

SAcademy: What about the regimented heaven inJOB?

OakMan 7111: archetype is the cookie cutter – stereotype is just another cookie

siannon secundus: No humour in that heaven

OakMan 7111: I laughed constantly in the heaven sequence, jani

KultsiKN: Dis agree, Jani.

AGplusone: I thought there was … Pete and the Sister saw a lot of things as funny

siannon secundus: Oh nice def, Jon

OakMan 7111: :-)

siannon secundus: Funny to the reader, not to the participants, I meant :-)

DavidWrightSr: Class vs object ? (OOP)

AGplusone: And he used a bit of humor … “lemme talk to the Spook … ”

Heinleinsmof: Comedy deals with unions; tragedy with separations.

fgherman: Hit the nail on the head Jon

rjjusu: But remember, valid stereotypes have a survival value, while unquestioned ones do not.

AGplusone: which probably dealt with his frustrations.

Heinleinsmof: And “humor” is a reference to medieval medical theory.

Heinleinsmof: Reduces everything to types or humors

OakMan 7111: (I’m wg a paper on OOP right now, David)

OakMan 7111: writing a paper

AGplusone: anyone ever read a book of essays called Homo Ludens?

AGplusone: Ludens=playing

Heinleinsmof: That’s either “playing man” or gay guy with a coughdrop.

OakMan 7111: << resisting urge to ask if it was written by Smith Bros.

rjjusu: A Venusian named Smith?

AGplusone: Writer of that book had a theory that playing, including using humor, was how we essentially coped wit

AGplusone: with everything

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

rjjusu: 2nd Cousin to the Martian Smith

Heinleinsmof: Model-making; a very fundamental human activity.

rjjusu: But that’s what stereotypes are – Models

AGplusone: “The Play’s the thing”

Heinleinsmof: Maybe the humor in such play is in the area where the model doesn’t fit the reality.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I’d agree it’s the place where the real world doesn’t fit the expectation …

Heinleinsmof: Like the guy who heard ?the map is not the territory,” so he shoveled a couple cubic yards of the ter

AGplusone: which is opposite, I think, to your view.

Heinleinsmof: ritory into his van.

rjjusu: Both models and stereotypes are shorthand versions of “reality”.

rjjusu: Good models/stereotypes have value, bad ones do not.

siannon secundus: so what’s “reality”, then?

rjjusu: Third door down from truth….

Heinleinsmof: experience.

OakMan 7111: We all stereotype to some extent as we deal with strangers, especially

siannon secundus: Hmmmm

AGplusone: [author of Homo Ludens, btw, was Johan Huizinga, German published in early 40s is Switzerland]

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

AGplusone: in Switz

Heinleinsmof: Schweiz

siannon secundus: (what is it, David?)

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

AGplusone: A book of essays, ‘a study of the play element in culture’, Jani

siannon secundus: Thank you :-)

siannon secundus: Made a note ..

Heinleinsmof: Heinlein wrote quite an unexpectedly large amount of humor

rjjusu: Why unexpectedly?

DavidWrightSr: Why do you say, ‘unexpectedly’?

Heinleinsmof: We just don’t think of him as acomic writer — but he did write quite a bit.

AGplusone: Fact he did, I suggest, gets me to suggest that the ‘humor’ may be what Ginny suggested …

AGplusone: it gets people to remember what he wrote.

fgherman: Heinlein used humor conversationally,

AGplusone: ‘sugar makes the medicine go down’

fgherman: He didn’t set up comedic situations

Heinleinsmof: Also, it’s a good way to burst pretentions.

Heinleinsmof: I’m thinking of the characters in Double Star

AGplusone: For example, Bill, which ones and how … Dak Broadbent writing Acey Wheelright novels?

AGplusone: And POETRY!

OakMan 7111: A very funny book and Smythe is a wonderfully funny character

DavidWrightSr: I loved the family scene in ‘Rolling Stones’ when they twins got home late. Hazel was hilarious

Heinleinsmof: And — I can’t remember her name — Penny? Deflating Larry Smith’s self-pretentions.

OakMan 7111: Penny is right name

Doc4Kidz has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Hi Doc

AGplusone: Hi, Barry …

fgherman: Hello

Doc4Kidz: hello everyone, I seem to have wandered into the Saturday chat.

SAcademy: I thought that the funniest part of Rolling Stones was the comprison of the development of the rockets

rjjusu: Doc, can you BOLD your type?

AGplusone: {And would you like a copy of the log thus far Barry}

Doc4Kidz: done

DavidWrightSr: Hi Doc. Welcome

Doc4Kidz: thanks, David

Doc4Kidz: (both Davids)

SAcademy: Hello, doctor.

DavidWrightSr: rockets vis a vis automobiles?

Doc4Kidz: Hello

OakMan 7111: Barry – I’m Jon Ogden when I am not a tree – the Society’s webman

DavidWrightSr: ‘three whole generations were slaves to them’ (autos that is)

SAcademy: It’s an essay which runs about two pages toward the start of the book

Doc4Kidz: nice to “meet” you Jon.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: likewise

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn …

fgherman: Hello Tawn

Heinleinsmof: Goodness, we can almost hold a Board meeting!

SAcademy: A digression while they’re shopping for a ship.

TAWN3: Hello everyone

rjjusu: I’m about to sacrifice a goat to have hellfire and brimstone rain down on AOHell

AGplusone: :-)

OakMan 7111: Randy – I have a very sharp silver knife I’d gladly let you borrow

AGplusone: Okay, it’s about 55 past the hour, I suggest we take ten, think about what comes next

AGplusone: and resume at 5 past the hour

rjjusu: I thought the discussion about rocketship development showed great engineering insight

AGplusone: Dave, you have the conn … maybe someone will send a log to Tawn while I water Bob

AGplusone: afk

DenvToday has entered the room.

rjjusu: Lookin’ like a full house!

DavidWrightSr: Good crowd tonight. Thursday was a little light.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron, doing a break until 5 past now … free chat til then

siannon secundus: Randy, sacrifices are my bailiwick, dear :-)

DenvToday: Hello everybody!

DenvToday: Thanks David.

fgherman: Hello Ron RogerPilkey has left the room.

fgherman: Guess gas prices have kept everyone home this week-end

rjjusu: Yes dear, but I’m getting to the point where I so want to learn …… and practice.

DenvToday: Hello fg. Good to see you today.

fgherman: Thanks

KultsiKN: How much in the US, Felicia?

fgherman: Around $1.89 / gal here in Minneapolis

fgherman: whcih is highest it’s ever been here

Heinleinsmof: Send some of that to California.

Heinleinsmof: It’s about 2.18 here.

siannon secundus: Yes Randy … classes are being held, I’ll let you know :-)

DavidWrightSr: I’m lucky. Here in the south, regular is around 1.47, but I’ve heard that some midwest

DavidWrightSr: places are well over 2.00

rjjusu: Message are too long. AOL are too stupid…

KultsiKN: A quick calculation gives ours about $4.50/gal :-(

fgherman: I’m home with a cold

DavidWrightSr: You noticed the 100 character limitation I gather :-)

AGplusone: I actually looked for Bob to water. found him sleeping in the clothes dryer … !!!

rjjusu: Kind of …… wasn’t sure where the breakpoint was. Must be a server “upgrade”

Heinleinsmof: That’s new — it used to be about 450 characters

AGplusone: he’s found a new hideout

SAcademy: Anyone think that those gas prices will overturn the government?

fgherman: Ibuprofen has *finally* kicked in

Heinleinsmof: Give Bob a lint trap.

rjjusu: Dave, he’ll only do that as long as no one turns the dryer *ON*

fgherman: From your mouth to G-d’s ear…


fgherman: Sen Jeffords did what he could.

siannon secundus: better the dryer than the washer ..

TAWN3: Americans are upset about it but stupid, estimated record auto travel this weekend. People will pay.

AGplusone: I gotta break him of that habit … afraid someone will actually close the door on him

Doc4Kidz: what, double crossed the voters who elected him as a Republican?

Doc4Kidz: was that admirable?

AGplusone: up to his voters, isn’t it?

rjjusu: Tell Bob to put an “Occupied” sign on the door when he goes in….

AGplusone: Right!

fgherman: Yes, he voted his principles and that’s what the voters on Vermont want him to do

SAcademy: They say that Vermont is different.

Doc4Kidz: they already voted for the Rep, then he changed him mind. Do that before the election if you’re hone

Doc4Kidz: st

siannon secundus: Did they vote for the man or the party?

rjjusu: Depends who you ask

TAWN3: ??????

fgherman has left the room.

Doc4Kidz: some vote party. He misrepresneted himslef to those voters.

AGplusone: They published a chart in the LA Times listing all those in modern times

AGplusone: Had one who crossed and then went back after a few years

OakMan 7111: He took the Republican national Committee’s money and didn’t stay bought – that makes him a bad

TAWN3: They did shorten msg size!

OakMan 7111: politician in RAH’s terms, doesn’t it?

Doc4Kidz: got nothing against the guy. Maybe he does have principles, but…

Doc4Kidz: not kosher that way

rjjusu: Yes, Tawn, and it’s about to drive me crazy

fgherman has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: me, too – suddenly this is like AOL, not AIM

AGplusone: He’s a good example about what RAH writes in How to be a Politician … the Hughes event in California

siannon secundus: But, did he not use the system to change the balance of power?

AGplusone: when Hughes’ CoS didn’t bother to have lunch or even chat with the governor, Hiram Johnson

AGplusone: So did Johnson … Hughes didn’t win California

rjjusu: Actually, I’m not surprised that this happened, because the six sigma members of both parties

rjjusu: are driving away the center.

fgherman: It just shows that Trent Lott has no people skills.

AGplusone: Look at Campbell 6 or 8 years ago … went from Dem to Rep in Colorado

Doc4Kidz: again, nothing particularly against the guy, but not especially admirable, either.

fgherman: Sorry to have opened this can of worms

Heinleinsmof: There is so little substantive difference between the two parties that one can only assume a switch l

SAcademy: Colorado is a swing state.

Heinleinsmof: like that is for personal advantage.

AGplusone: Well, we’re back on again … anyway, Felicia …

fgherman: But I’m no fan of the President-Select

AGplusone: back to humor, Heinlein, Willis and Jerome …

Heinleinsmof: And speaking about Willis — how about the Bouncer in Red Planet?

Doc4Kidz: he could have voted his concience without changing parties at this specific time.

AGplusone: Anyone besides me read Dooms Day Book by Willis, not by William the Bastard?

Doc4Kidz: (ok, enough from me on this)

fgherman: not yet

TAWN3: SAcademy, if people want more affordable gas, they will force govts, including local ones,

AGplusone: Recommend it strongly!

TAWN3: , to stop regulating production and distribution so much

SAcademy: Willis was the result of us getting a tape recorder/

OakMan 7111: Moliere wrote an essay in which he suggested that we laughed whenever we saw human beings

TAWN3: (What I tried to send before.)

OakMan 7111: acting like machines

AGplusone: Was it Moliere who described man as a featherless biped?

OakMan 7111: which is pretty much a nother defintion of stereotype

AGplusone: I.e., a plucked chicken

OakMan 7111: I thot that was Dogbrt, David

AGplusone: Or was that Moliere making a joke about Aristotle?

rjjusu: Stereotype or someone with a “word with ways”?

AGplusone: Who so defined it.

AGplusone: The ‘humor’ in Dooms Day Book is the only thing that keeps you from going nuts reading it, if you’re

OakMan 7111: The example he used was that we laugh at the man who slips on a bannana peel —

OakMan 7111: if he was walking along not watching where he was going

AGplusone: paying attention to the plight of this grad student sent back to the Black Plague.

Heinleinsmof: WAsn’t that 150 years after the Domesday book?

AGplusone: Yes, at least

AGplusone: Domesday Book by William started when he consolidated his newly-won kingdom

AGplusone: Black Plague hit England about 1248 or so, IIRC

Heinleinsmof: The big plague was 1360-66

Heinleinsmof: They had minor plagues about every 30 years for 200 years.

rjjusu: So how did a Martian bouncer get a book published on earth?

fgherman: Definitely a 14th century thing

AGplusone: You’re right, Ginny … the Black Plague was 13XX

AGplusone: So it’s 250 at least

rjjusu: I mean, did Willis just send an interplanetary fax?

Heinleinsmof: E-mail

Heinleinsmof: We’re getting Martian e-mail capability, you know.

Heinleinsmof: Sometimes I feel I’m living in a Greg Egan novel

SAcademy: Drudge reported that.

rjjusu: Not through AOL you aren’t – you know how long those martian words can be….

AGplusone: Are there any stories by RAH that anyone can think of that the ‘humor’ is the only thing that keeps

AGplusone: your reading because the subject matter described is otherwise so distressing that you might not in

AGplusone: the wrong mood keep reading?

Heinleinsmof: “My Object All Sublime,” “Our Fair City.”

DavidWrightSr: Never!!

Heinleinsmof: “Jerry Was a Man.”

rjjusu: I finally got a copy of My Object All Sublime last week.

SAcademy: Why bother?

AGplusone: I think Jerry is an excellent example!

DavidWrightSr: OK. I admit that there are some of his works that I haven’t read 30 times :-)

Heinleinsmof: It’s definitely one of those you have to laugh because the subject is so worth crying over.

AGplusone: Slavery of sentient animals and you kill them when they wear out, despite their pleas that they can

rjjusu: I’m a completist, and like to make my own judgements, but as usual, RAH was more correct than me….

AGplusone: still work … still think, love, etc.

AGplusone: And they voice those pleas to you in the “King’s English” ….

DenvToday: I

Heinleinsmof: Did you get the magazine version?

DenvToday: oops

Heinleinsmof: With the damon knight illustration?

rjjusu: No, I got the reprint version in Beyond the End of Time

rjjusu: Edited by Frederik Pohl

Heinleinsmof: I have trouble remembering which one of the three “stinkeroos” didn’t get re-collected. I believe it

Heinleinsmof: must have been “Pied Piper.”

AGplusone: Another other stories that must have ‘humor’ to be at least tolerable, depending on your mood?

Heinleinsmof: “The Man Who Travelled in Elephants.”

SAcademy: That’s crying stuff not laughing!

Heinleinsmof: In “The Menace from Earth,” the humorous situations make us like Holly.

AGplusone: The ‘tragic’ in Elephants is not the man dying, but his having lost his wife … pathos, ending in

Heinleinsmof: But the humor gentles the tears.

DenvToday: mof, very good point. I love that story…so beautifully written. But still, the tears always come.

AGplusone: comedy!

AGplusone: Comedy because he dies!

fgherman: I’ve never read the last page without tears

AGplusone: And joins her again …

Heinleinsmof: Comedy deals with unions and reunions.

Heinleinsmof: (I mean comedy as a literary form)

AGplusone: I agree, that one and “The Long Watch” Felicia

Heinleinsmof: But “The Long Watch” is a tragedy — deals with separations.

Heinleinsmof: Same for “Green Hills”

Heinleinsmof: Comic catharsis wouldn’t have done anything for those two stories.

DavidWrightSr: And ‘Tale of the Adopted Daughter’

AGplusone: Something happens in “The Long Watch” particularly that deals with what comedy does, same for “G Hill”

AGplusone: and Tale of the Adopted Daughter

siannon secundus: IWFNE is a separation, at the end ..

rjjusu: Yes, “The Long Watch” is the one that always gets me, when I read it. But it is a great story…

rjjusu: Greater love hath no man ……

TAWN3: What is that David?

AGplusone: Recall the moment in The Long Watch where it doesn’t matter to him …?

OakMan 7111: The three go together somewhere, janni

AGplusone: where he’s at peace with his fate?

siannon secundus: Not sure, that’s what always upsets about it, Jon

TAWN3: How is that like comedy

rjjusu: The balm of gilead – acceptance

TAWN3: ?

AGplusone: Same thing with Rhysling … “This is Rhysling ON Watch, stand by to record”

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think that’s comc — it’s tragic transcendence.

Heinleinsmof: “a man’s a man for a’ that.”

TAWN3: Heroism maybe.

Heinleinsmof: the n

AGplusone: Those two portions are specifically what I was referring to when I mentioned what Jerome did in that

OakMan 7111: If there really is an afterlife, then everything’s a comedy – and the funniest thing is:

Heinleinsmof: noble aspect of gallantry.

OakMan 7111: we don’t know it

AGplusone: bit of the poetry of the Night, …

TAWN3: The Grand illusion


OakMan 7111: I think thats where I’m going, yes

DavidWrightSr: ‘ we don’t know it’ Heinlein said something like that in ‘Beyond this Horizon’

DavidWrightSr: when Mordan and Felix expected to die.

OakMan 7111: I think every original thought I think I have turns out to be a rephrase of RAH

TAWN3: RAH said it a lot, in a lot of places.

DenvToday: Oak, perhaps that’s the “moral” in Job.

AGplusone: Right, Jon … the biggest joke in Jurgen:ACOJ is when the god invents heaven and hell and populates

AGplusone: it with God and Satan, the angels and devils, to satisfy Jurgen’s grandmother.

AGplusone: … and for no, IMI, NO, other reason … whimsy

Heinleinsmof: There’s a good “and that reminds me…” to that story in The Silver Stallion. Donander becomes a god

Heinleinsmof: in the norse pantheon by mistake.

siannon secundus: That’s in Hoag, too, to an extent

Heinleinsmof: Yes. I can’t help but see the Heaven in Job as a combination of Captain Stormfield and Jurgen.

DenvToday: Appropos of absolutely nothing, I watched “The Right Stuff” the other day with friends. The…

AGplusone: Right … the heaven Cabell created wasn’t all that funny … the one Twain did was hilarious.

AGplusone: There’s RAH choosing humor again.

OakMan 7111: I saw some of it as what was preached at Covenant Methodist Church while I was growing up and RAH

DenvToday: …character played by Royal Dano sings The Prayer for Travelers several times when pilots are…

OakMan 7111: saying “be careful what you wish for.”

Heinleinsmof: Much the same kind of humor as in Captain STormfield.

DenvToday: ….killed. I kept thinking of RAH’s addition to the prayer.

Heinleinsmof: It was a wonderful verse addition, wasn’t it.

DenvToday: Indeed!

AGplusone: The humor makes it stick in your mind (it is a wonderful addition) …

AGplusone: Jane, if you’ve read the posts, questioned one thing about Jerome … whether his poetic passages

AGplusone: were serious. anyone have a thought on that?

AGplusone: Here we have a low-brow writer catering to a low-brow audience … what is all that poetry doing in

AGplusone: his book?

AGplusone: Simply Victorian sentimentality?

AGplusone: Anyone?

Heinleinsmof: Partly it was the magazine conventions of the day. Remember this was before low-brow literature real

Heinleinsmof: ly took off.

Heinleinsmof: Pop culture dates from about 1895, with the start of Argosy.

AGplusone: But … Isn’t sticking a florid passage into a prosaic book an attention-getting device, too.

AGplusone: Just as humor is … ”

Heinleinsmof: Well — it is humor, playing with the distinction between naturalistic prose writing and florid poeti

Heinleinsmof: writing.

AGplusone: Jerome didn’t put one in every chapter … some of it is serious, however, I’d maintain.

AGplusone: For example, clearly, that bit about King John signing the Magna Carta … inserted for schoolchildren

Heinleinsmof: CAbell did that — he called it “contrapuntal” writing. And of course, rAH did that, too, in TEFL.

AGplusone: And the example Jane picked, the bit about the worn out pauper mother drowning herself …

siannon secundus: I have to go, ladies and gentlemen – thank you for a fascinating discussion, as always :-)

AGplusone: totally exhausted and unwilling to go herself to the ‘poor house’ …

OakMan 7111: bye jani

siannon secundus: Goodnight, all ..

KultsiKN: See ya, Jani

DenvToday: Bye siannon!

Doc4Kidz: goodnight. I’m going to go, too. Bye, and thanks.

AGplusone: It is pathos, perhaps even approches bathos, but I think he’s seriously concerned about here.

siannon secundus has left the room.

Heinleinsmof: Depends on what you mean by “serious.” It sounds more as though Jerome periodically launched into

Heinleinsmof: set pieces

Doc4Kidz has left the room.

fgherman: g-bye

markjmills has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello

AGplusone: HI, Mark how’s NYC today?

Heinleinsmof: Even though the set piece may be perfectly serious in itself, it produces a humorous effect by contra

Heinleinsmof: st

DenvToday: Hello!

markjmills: Hi, all — missed you in the last month.

AGplusone: Yes, it does, doesn’t it, even more ‘attention-getting’ therefore?

markjmills: Hah — I’m in Florida, soaking up sun…

Heinleinsmof: URK — can you get rid of the gray background, Mark

TAWN3: Bye Jani

fgherman: More like soaking up sunset at this hour

markjmills: Better?

KultsiKN: Bold it.

Heinleinsmof: Better — and would you bold? Thanks

DenvToday: I’ve always found soaking up gin to be more productive :-)

markjmills: Hmmmmm….

markjmills: There we go…

fgherman: That’ll work

markjmills: So what’s on topic — still humour?

Heinleinsmof: Arrrrh! — bite the parrot, maytee

AGplusone: Still humor, Mark …

markjmills: Gin? Someone mention gin?

OakMan 7111: I’m more of a rummy, myself

markjmills: Any port in a storm…

Heinleinsmof: Gin and rummy have been known to go togheter…

DenvToday: Oak, I can certainly respect that.

Heinleinsmof: I sherry your sentiments.

markjmills: Tequila’s more appropriate down here.

OakMan 7111: I wonder which Jani likes, I suppose we canasta.

KultsiKN: Both are known sources of questinable humor.

markjmills: Bad puns get lashes! God ones get other things.

AGplusone: On humor, Mark, what single thing about RAH’s humor sticks in your craw or mind …

OakMan 7111: The only good pun is a dead pun

AGplusone: or we could try going around the room …. [watchout] …

fgherman: I’ll abstain from this

markjmills: Hmmm…I’m rather uncritical of the Master on the humor side — I tend to enjoy him even at his corni

OakMan 7111: “Well, just don’t make a hobbit of it”

markjmills: Ooops…limit on sentences?

KMurphy165 has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Hello KM

fgherman: Hello

KMurphy165: Greetings.

markjmills: Hi

DenvToday: There is one title (short story) that always gives me a belly laugh. Any guesses?

DenvToday: Hi KM!

markjmills: W Also Walk Dogs?

Heinleinsmof: Gentlemen, be seated?

DenvToday: Yes!

OakMan 7111:

TAWN3: Yes

DenvToday: Gold star for mof!

markjmills: That’s a great one.

AGplusone: Gbs? George Bernard Shaw …

DenvToday: mark, also a great title.

AGplusone: Wonder if that was intentional?

Heinleinsmof: Oh, I’m sure it was.

AGplusone: … naw …

AGplusone: Dave Wright (warning was given) what’s the most salient point about RAH’s humor sticks with you?

OakMan 7111: I shall not give in to temptation…I shall not…

markjmills: Wilde said do…

markjmills: Fear No Evil, man!

AGplusone: Randy Jost is up next ….

rjjusu: I thought Yoda said Do or do not, there is no try

TAWN3: Yes, there is lots of humor in that.

DenvToday: rjj, you must remember that Yoda had a man’s hand up his um…back.

fgherman: And Miss Piggy’s voice

rjjusu: Let’s not resurrect that IRS thread …..

AGplusone: Assuming Dave is watering his lawn, you’re up Randy …. :-)

DenvToday: Very true.

AGplusone: Ron is up after Randy …

rjjusu: I think the thing I like most about Heinlein’s humor is its “naturalness” … it doesn’t seem forced

AGplusone: Then Mark, then Jon Ogden …

rjjusu: and it always fits the situation.

AGplusone: By fits the situation, give an example, please …

rjjusu: There are several touching, yet humorous moments in Double Star

rjjusu: Even when Lorenzo is in funny situations, you can sense the man behind the mask in his responses.

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, there is a matter I must take care of, so I take my leave of you. Take care.

rjjusu: The comments about Martians always smelling like Penny’s perfume, etc.

OakMan 7111: Bye Bill

AGplusone: The politcian who figures doing what a politician always does … stop and kiss babies … can’t be

AGplusone: wrong?

Heinleinsmof: Ciao.

TAWN3: Bye Bill

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

rjjusu: CYA Bill

SAcademy: Nite, Bill

AGplusone: ‘staying in character’ so to speak?

rjjusu: I think so, but more than that.

DavidWrightSr: Made you feel part of the family

rjjusu: He is really trying to reconcile who he is, with who he seems.

AGplusone: My dad figured that stimulating my cerebral cortex by causing flow of blood away from my butt …

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: Ignore last. I was trying to describe RAH’s humor. ‘casualness’. Made you part of family

AGplusone: He is … reconciling …

AGplusone: what he admires with what he was, he obviously admired his father and figures he really doesn’t

AGplusone: measure up to dad.

rjjusu: When a politician is representing others, where does the politician

rjjusu: stop and the person begin?

AGplusone: Where he stops being Larry Smith and becomes Bonforte?

AGplusone: Is that a joke in the book … or humor?

rjjusu: Yes, especially if your constituents want one thing, but who you ARE says No

markjmills: Sorry — shoot, phone call, BBS.

AGplusone: see you back soon Mark

OakMan 7111: bye mark

rjjusu: Not sure it is a joke, or just the many layers of excellent writing.

DenvToday: We talked about “contrapuntal” before. That’s one aspect of RAH’s humor I love.

rjjusu: Looks like Denv has received the ‘punt and is starting his run….

AGplusone: Ron, please give it a shot: what sticks out the most for you?

DenvToday: For instance, The Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail in TEFL…

AGplusone: uh-huh … /ga

DenvToday: We have that in contrast to the poignant episodes in the book

DenvToday: Even when Lazarus is at his lowest…close to suiciding…

DenvToday: There’s always a smart-aleck quality lurking just below the surface.

DavidWrightSr: When it was written, Juan’s comment on having to leave his earrings at home was hilarious. …..

DavidWrightSr: Nothing funny today

AGplusone: Much like Zebbie in Number and Harris in 3Men … Zac is funny in “If this Goes on … ”

AGplusone: So is Smitty in Red Planet …

AGplusone: in as serious a matter as hiding their guns from the schoolmaster

rjjusu: Ron, what part of Denver are you in? I tried to send you a private message, but you are unavailable

DenvToday: Really? I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that.

DenvToday: I’

OakMan 7111: Heinlein usually centers his humor around characters that we love. “Tex” is much funnier than

DenvToday: oop

OakMan 7111: Stinky Burke

DenvToday: I’ll fix that.

rjjusu: I just realized that the Education degree that Zeb received may have come from USU

AGplusone: Is there anyone particularly funny in Cat ?

rjjusu: that explains a lot. :-)

DenvToday: I’ve fixed the privacy preferences. Thanks for pointing that out.

DavidWrightSr: Lots of funny in Cat. putting limburger in the ac.

DavidWrightSr: for example.

AGplusone: Besides Marcy and her hemroids … the traffic controller with a bad temper …

AGplusone: not that I think of it.

AGplusone: now

KMurphy165: USU?

OakMan 7111: I don’t think of Friday as being very funny either.

AGplusone: Tawn, you want to give it a shot?

DenvToday: Can any of us forget that Lummox has been “raising John Thomases” for a long time?

rjjusu: Utah State University, in Logan, UT, where I am and where the beginning of NOTB takes place

DenvToday: Star Best, of course.

TAWN3: Well, I’ve been thinking about it.

AGplusone: Friday is funny only if you get the final joke: tend to your own garden, just as in Candide.

KMurphy165: The court scenes om Star Beast are fast moving and funny. Good command of pace and timing.

TAWN3: I don’t think of Heinlein as humor. It is strange,

DavidWrightSr: Some of the ads in Baton Rouge? were hilarious as I recall

TAWN3: Because I see a lot of things being pointed out,

TAWN3: Yes, Star Beast has a lot of laughs in it.

TAWN3: And other things

AGplusone: … and … go on, Tawn, please.

TAWN3: But in general, to me,

TAWN3: the bigger message always is more important.

TAWN3: Now that I think of it, the one place I do equate RAH with humor,

TAWN3: is in court room scenes. Those always give me a great laugh

rjjusu: Humor greases the message? Makes it easier to swallow the pig?

AGplusone: But is humor an adjunct to communicating the ‘bigger message’?

TAWN3: and I can’t think of anybody who does it better.

AGplusone: [courtroom scenes are funny to me too]

OakMan 7111: Why did RAH feel he had to label JOB? was he afraid we wouldn’t get the joke?

rjjusu: Probably ‘cuz you don’t have to be there anymore!

KMurphy165: Humor is always the medicine to make the tragic easier to take.

AGplusone: but lawyer jokes that lawyers tell each other are like doctor jokes: require long winded explanations

TAWN3: Yes, the court room scens

TAWN3: From Star Beast to IWFNE (judges) to SiaSL

TAWN3: which is definitely the best

TAWN3: This is because RAH truly understood the nature of society and

KMurphy165: IWFNE?

TAWN3: and the legal and political beast.

rjjusu: I Will Fear No Evil

TAWN3: Anyway, that’s my take on it.

KMurphy165: Thanks

TAWN3: Done

AGplusone: Oscar makes a few soldier jokes in Glory Road, doesn’t he? Tell us whether you think them funny?

KMurphy165: I think you have something, there Tawn.

KMurphy165: The court scenes are about the fate of some character that hinges the plot, and yet

KMurphy165: the humor makes it more palatable to read.

rjjusu: I think so, and very true to form. Solders have to have a sense of humor, or they will break

AGplusone: [‘fer example: the Ian Hayes joke about the departments]

DavidWrightSr: Even the court in HSSWT. remember the monkey that did a flip?

AGplusone: The ‘joke’ about the Lieutenant being passed over, and going out and getting killed … right next to

AGplusone: Oscar who takes the bolo on his face.

TAWN3: Yes, the judges (Supreme Court?) in IWFNE. Eunice goes to visit them. Remember?

rjjusu: Combat has always been theater of the absurd

TAWN3: Yes, the leagl scenes are almost always the best, and often funny.

AGplusone: Oscar coming down the cliff while the beasts await dinner from above …

AGplusone: manna from Heaven?

TAWN3: Although I think of HSSWT final trial as moving, not funny. “Go ahead,

OakMan 7111: I need to go take care all

rjjusu: See you!

TAWN3: deatroy our sun, we’ll build another!”

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

TAWN3: Defiant and inspirational at the same time.

DenvToday: I’ve been thinking. “An He Built a Crooked House” is hilarious.

DenvToday: And

TAWN3: RAH understood reality, that’s all.

AGplusone: But the way Iunio treats Kip is funny … stereotypical …

AGplusone: and serious …

AGplusone: What does he say, get the ones who I only wound?

AGplusone: [that might be your speed]

AGplusone: Kultsi … out there?

TAWN3: Crooked House is the magic one?

TAWN3: Good humor in there also.

rjjusu: yes

DenvToday: Yes, the tesseract.

KMurphy165: To mix in all of these elements that define being alive and human…

AGplusone: Okay, you’re up next KM … :-)

KMurphy165: Then the amazing insight to cleverly put that into plot and dialog.

AGplusone: what do you find sticks out?

KultsiKN: I find many places that are humorous, but…

rjjusu: military volunteer

AGplusone: Kultsi first … then KM, ga Kultsi

DenvToday: I particularly like the matronly woman in it. You just want to smack her with a dead fish.

KultsiKN: apparently, because of cultural differences I can’t get them all…

fgherman: Gotta go.

fgherman: Good night all

DenvToday: Bye fg !

fgherman has left the room.

SAcademy: Nite, Felicia

TAWN3: Bye Felicia

AGplusone: Okay, what do you get … of what you get, Kultsi, what translates?

KultsiKN: the most subtle ones do necessitate an understanding of the US society…

KultsiKN: which I haven’t.

DenvToday: wb

KultsiKN: Much of the humor is pretty universal, though.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I dropped out. can someone post me what I missed to make the log complete.

AGplusone: I can, David …

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

AGplusone: Okay, KM, you’re up if you wish: what sticks out as most impressive about RAH humor to you?

AGplusone: And you’re up next Dave :-)

KMurphy165: This is a moment when I wish AIM wasn’t limiting response length…

AGplusone: LOL … go ahead … we’ll wait ’til you finish

KMurphy165: First, the body of work of Mr. Heinlein is of greater significance to me than holy writ…

KMurphy165: Then I think of how he knew enough of what it means to be human…

rjjusu: =-O

AGplusone: :-)

KMurphy165: you mix in the everyday kind of humor with the other facets of being alife and humor…

KMurphy165: I’m amazed at that talent and ability to distill it down to plot and dialog…

KMurphy165: Consider how humor weaves all through “The Rolling Stone”

KMurphy165: There are little bits and snippets stuck in every where…

KMurphy165: The Cat Who Walks Through Walls – the landing sequence = the same thing

KMurphy165: It all goes to make the characters more alive

KMurphy165: and easy to care about. Building towards the climax.

AGplusone: Does it add an ethos to the message?

KMurphy165: I think that is very true.

KMurphy165: It is all too easy to preach to the choir.

AGplusone: I.e., a heightened authority to the author’s voice?

rjjusu: Almost Godlike?

KMurphy165: But to convey the author’s point in such a way as to make the audience wanting to hear more

AGplusone: Because he doesn’t take out the leven of humor … does it make the preaching easier to take?

KMurphy165: is simple mastery.

AGplusone: Type “/ga” when you’re done, KM … so we know ;-)

KMurphy165: The purpose of the humor is just that to make the sermon palatable and juicy.

KMurphy165: Ok on the “/ga”

rjjusu: I don’t think of it as being preaching. Rather, “Here’s a thought, what do YOU think?”

KMurphy165: /ga

AGplusone: Ah, but some do … Randy, and would you agree that they’ve little sense of humor?

AGplusone: 8-)

TAWN3: A lot of people have told me they don’t like Heinlein because he is always preaching

rjjusu: About as much sense of humor as a box of rocks….

TAWN3: From my POV, that is exactly what I do like!

TAWN3: I agree with the message though.

rjjusu: I think Heinlein would say, “Don’t agree with me because I’m me, but rather, because you have thought

AGplusone: The preaching? I like it to, but I also like the levening … it makes the medicine go down even if

AGplusone: I’m not in the mood.

rjjusu: about it and you believe it to be right.”

AGplusone: Okay, we’re about 30 minutes past due for a break … why don’t we do that and when we come back

AGplusone: I have some announcments …

rjjusu: I never saw Heinlein as a shepard, leading the sheep.

AGplusone: back at 30 past the hour, please. Dave, got the conn?

DavidWrightSr: Who me?

TAWN3: Because the sheep don’t understand what he is saying, thats why.

AGplusone: Who else?

rjjusu: I have a couple of things to over with you Ag, when we are done this evening.

rjjusu: go over

AGplusone: Okay … I’m going to find my little teapot … burgundy flavored.

AGplusone: afk til 30 past the hour.

rjjusu: Oh, Tawn, that’s Bah-ahh-ahh-d.

TAWN3: :-)

TAWN3: He makes fun of the sheep all the time, or other times just

TAWN3: points them out.

TAWN3: The Earthside characters in “It’s Great to be Back” come immediately to mind.

rjjusu: Yes, but I think he still likes the sheep….. where else you you get lambchops?

DavidWrightSr: I am mostly lurking because I can’t really treat RAH’s humor as a separate thing. It all …

DavidWrightSr: seems to go together for me


KMurphy165: I’ve tried to squeeze this into AIM space 3 times :-(

KultsiKN: Dave, you are not the only one in that.

rjjusu: I agree, David, it is a very integrated presentation that we see in Heinlein’s writings.

KMurphy165: I can’t help but to think at times…

TAWN3: Yes, it is horrible how they limit length now.

KMurphy165: RAH was trying to get a point across to us.

AGplusone: I agree, it’s hard, but sometimes looking at a thing hard to separate discovers a few things …

KMurphy165: It seems to me that Mrs. Heinlein would have insight on that

TAWN3: That’s why I had a hard time at first thinking of Heinlein as humor.

TAWN3: Although I immediately can think of others as having a humorous side, such as Van Vogt.

AGplusone: I think of RAH’s writings as essentially ‘good humored’ even when he’s at his most angry … IWFNE for

AGplusone: example.

SAcademic: I am afrtaid that for forty yeaars I misunderstood my husband. He was always saying that I had a sens

SAcademic: e of humor.

TAWN3: rjusu said: where else you you get lambchops

TAWN3: Well In Farnham’s Freehold……..

SAcademic: I’ve learned a lot about his humor to night.

rjjusu: Lambchops, not Long-porkchops…..

KMurphy165: Why would you say that you misunderstood him?

AGplusone: seriously, Ginny, or are we all wet?

SAcademic: He frequently asked me whether he was a “funny man.” I would say, “Yes, dear.” But I missed the poin

SAcademic: No, I think you’re right now. I missed it altogether.

AGplusone: That’s one hell of a compliment, Thank you from all of us.

KultsiKN: Second.

DenvToday: Indeed!

KMurphy165: second

SAcademic: Sorry to be doing a true confession.

TAWN3: Yes!

AGplusone: Well, it being 30 past the hour … let me discuss a couple things.

SAcademic: It’s really out of place in this meeting.

AGplusone: 1. Next meeting topic: Door Into Summer — no, it’s not — and “predictions”

TAWN3: Anything you say is in place here Ginny.

rjjusu: This is YOUR meeting too!

DavidWrightSr: Not at all. It’s wonderful that you share with us.

KMurphy165: Anything Mrs. Heinlein says is most appropriate

AGplusone: 2. I want to discuss this cutting Saturday meetings. I’m willing to host Saturdays indefinitely,

AGplusone: provided, we get a few volunteers at the year goes on to relieve me occasionally …

AGplusone: and maybe grow back into the nominate-theme or story where new hosts try the thing out

DavidWrightSr: I would imagine that we can manage that. Even I could try sometimes.

rjjusu: I can help out some, Dave, after we get our moving and settling in done.

AGplusone: So I’ll do it … ‘hoping’ as I say, and don’t be too surprised if Zim doesn’t ask you to volunteer as

AGplusone: the year goes by. Thank you.

AGplusone: 3. Connie Willis visit … met her, she’s very nice and very bright, but I do want to emphasize one

AGplusone: thing: we need to read a couple of her books. I’d suggest the two we’ve discussed

AGplusone: before she comes: Dooms Day Book and To Say Nothing of the Dog. both won Hugos, so we should read them

AGplusone: anyway … can I get a committment we’ll do that before I start wheels in motion?

rjjusu: When did you want to have her “here”?

AGplusone: I was a little embarassed with the Smith visit because of (a) few turned out and (b) few had read ….

AGplusone: within next two months, maybe soon.

rjjusu: Just asking, because the next two months I’m going to be earlobe deep to a tall giraffe in moving …

AGplusone: And if we ask her to expend six hours, we ought to have at least read her more important works.

DenvToday: I’ll read those, and more.

rjjusu: I agree, and it IS a responsibility of ours.

KultsiKN: Furrin books are a bit hard to come by in my neck of woods.

AGplusone: That’s all we ask … and they’re both excellent books.

AGplusone: Could you check, K … they did both win Hugos, one two years ago

SAcademic: I’d like to, but—

AGplusone: I know, Ginny, impossible for you …

SAcademic: Yes.

KultsiKN: I’ll check, of course.

AGplusone: but helping out on the posts, even if you can make both meetings will make her feel wanted, and if we

AGplusone: want to have ‘guests’ we’d better do better than we did with Smith …

DenvToday: I believe Willis has several books on tape.

SAcademic: Robert and I used to read Three Men in a Boat to each other.

TAWN3: Ah! Great solution Denver!

AGplusone: and note how nicely we picked up the Rosenburgs after their chat …

SAcademic: I willl try to get some of those.

AGplusone: They both visit and I don’t know about you all, but I think that helps our chats a lot.

rjjusu: I have to say that I enjoyed the Smith visit, but you are right, not much discussion about his works

AGplusone: ’nuff said … on point three.

SAcademic: Yes, it does. Felicia is adelightful

AGplusone: Smith was a problem because so much of his work is Out of print

rjjusu: However, I’ve bought 8 of Joel’s books since his visit.

rjjusu: And found a couple of Smith’s this past week.

DavidWrightSr: I keep looking in the used stores.

AGplusone: so have I, nearly … since it was announced he’d visit

AGplusone: and they are decent books

DavidWrightSr: It gave me two additional writers that I can read. So much of what is out there today I can’t stand.

AGplusone: Okay, me: I’ll answer my own question. what sticks out the most to me … the epigramatic way he

AGplusone: presented humor, not only classic epigrams such as the Sayings of Laz but whenever he intrudes a humor

AGplusone: into a story … get in, get it done, get out … now back to the story

AGplusone: You smile, go on, and look forward to the next sally

AGplusone: the next wry smile it’s going to cause you to make

AGplusone: and, generally, the tolerant way he treats his objects of humor … not scathing usually, but resigned

rjjusu: You make it sound like a job, instead of an extension of a person’s personality.

AGplusone: to the weaknesses of humans

AGplusone: It probably was … but I’d bet he got better at telling jokes the older he got

SAcademic: Yes, that’s ttue

rjjusu: I’d like to think that the person we saw expressed on paper is the person we would meet in life.

AGplusone: ‘timing

SAcademic: Oh, yes, he was great at that!

AGplusone: Okay, Dave … want to take a further shot at it?

AGplusone: we got ten minutes, otherwise, free chat … to the end of the hour.

rjjusu: What were you charging before?

DenvToday: You must admit, the way “To Sail Beyond the Sunset” starts is nothing if not funny.

AGplusone: Standard lawyer’s fee, $300 hour

rjjusu: Must be bargin weekend, because of the holiday.

AGplusone: [I told you lawyer’s jokes to other lawyers require a lot of explanation]

rjjusu: One question for Mrs. H – would you say that Robert had a “wry” sense of humor in everyday life, ….

DavidWrightSr: I can’t add anything.

rjjusu: or a playful sense of humor?

SAcademic: Playful, rather than wry.

TAWN3: Interesting.

AGplusone: practical jokes?

DavidWrightSr: ‘loose slips lose ships’

SAcademic: Why, Tawn

rjjusu: That makes sense, given the way he uses the language sometimes.

SAcademic: No, no practical jokes. I never knew him to do that.

TAWN3: Well, because I am thinking about the differences between those two types of humor.

AGplusone: I love Jill Boardman’s decription of Intern humor … just wondered if he was joking at himself

TAWN3: And I would have thought of wry first,

SAcademic: Except once. He put a little figure of an ice skater on top of an ice cube, and waited for me to fi

TAWN3: based on observations in his writings.

SAcademic: nd it.

AGplusone: in the ice tray? Or in a drink?

TAWN3: But, on further thought, there is a large degree in playfulness when he wants to be humorous

SAcademic: In the ice tray in the fridge.

TAWN3: such as in Star beast for example since we discussed it earlier.

markjmills has left the room.

TAWN3: And the things I think of as “wry”

AGplusone: Great! In a drink might have strange effects especially after a long night.

markjmills has entered the room.

TAWN3: come out as humor but are really political commentary

AGplusone: PJ O’Rourke, or Phil Wiley write/wrote very funny political commentary …

rjjusu: Good comments, Tawn. I’ve seen many of the same things, which is why I asked the question

TAWN3: So, I have to agree with what someone pointed out earlier,

TAWN3: that the humor is to make the message more palatable.

AGplusone: so does Dave Barry now that I think on it … and others

TAWN3: But it is not really humor for humor’s sake, because when he does want to be humourous

TAWN3: he is very playful and funny indeed!

TAWN3: So, one is meant to be funny, the other is meant to make the mesage strike home.

AGplusone: I’m all yours by IM Randy …

rjjusu: Yes, not quite Dave Barry, but not unlike PJ O’Rourke

TAWN3: That was my interesting (from my POV) observation.

TAWN3: And you are probably most definitely right Ginny, since you knew him best!

SAcademic: Nite all, time for me to get something to eat.

KMurphy165: Farewell

DenvToday: Good night!

SAcademic has left the room.

AGplusone: Good night, Ginny, thanks

TAWN3: Nite!

KultsiKN: time for by nap. Good night, all!

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: G’nite Kultsi … official close of log at 5:00:33 PM PDT

KMurphy165: Time to go and take care of family. Hope to see all here Thursday night.

AGplusone: Looking forward to it!

KMurphy165 has left the room.

AGplusone: Have we an e mail addy for KM?

DenvToday: Good night to one and all. Thanks for the terrific discussion.

DavidWrightSr: I think I have it. I’ll check

AGplusone: Dave: sending you full log ….

DenvToday has left the room.

rjjusu: Great discussion this evening. some real insights in tonight’s log into the character of RAH.

TAWN3: Yes, good discussion.

TAWN3: great discussion.

AGplusone: Good! Thanks Dave. sent.

markjmills has left the room.

rjjusu: Great comments, Tawn. I think they really caught the essence of what we

AGplusone: got it?

rjjusu: were talking about here, tonight.

rjjusu: And now, I want to go out an commit mayhem on some AOL dweeb

AGplusone: for limiting the buffer here! I’ll help …

AGplusone: I know where I can find a rock

TAWN3: Observation at the end you mean rj?

rjjusu: This shortening of messages is really cramping my writing.

rjjusu: I wish they would show a little buffer indicator if they are going to limit it like that.

rjjusu: Yes, Tawn.

TAWN3: Not only limiting the buffer, it used to be

AGplusone: It’s annoying … I do get the bell when I hit it …

AGplusone: but I’m surprised you guys don’t.

TAWN3: at least the first part of your message showed up until the limit point,

DavidWrightSr: I don’t get anything and have to retype when I over type.

TAWN3: so you didn’t have to rewrite a whole thought.

rjjusu: I don’t, that is what is frustrating to me. All I get is message too long or complicated

AGplusone: Send them a nasty e mail, from their website

rjjusu: then it dis appears, and I have to start from scratch.

AGplusone: big PITA

TAWN3: Now the whole thing dis apears and you get a “to long” notice instead, causing you

TAWN3: to sometimes lose the train of thought.

AGplusone: Only don’t tell ‘em that it doesn’t happy on Macs, otherwise some brain-burned idiot will tell the pro

rjjusu: If this is the way it is going to be, I’m going to make a template in Notepad, and write there first.

TAWN3: Excite is sending out direct competition to AOL customers, got one yesterday

AGplusone: grammers to take out the Macs.

rjjusu: Then cut-and-paste to the AIM window. Just slows me down terribly.

TAWN3: maybe they see AOL as screwing up some stuff and feel they can compete better now.

AGplusone: Excite is a sinking ship …

AGplusone: I’m going to go back and get TypeIt4Me again, new upgrade and see if it works

rjjusu: And my train of thought derails and wrecks itself on the track of my keyboard

AGplusone: Thing I used to use in the AOL chat rooms. Basically a text squirter

AGplusone: I’m sure they have such animals for non-Mac ‘puters

TAWN3: Exactly rj, destorys train of thought sometimes.

DavidWrightSr: Folks, I gotta run. See you all later.

rjjusu: Well, til I find one, I’ll just use Editpad and transfer. I use it to keep track of how much

AGplusone: Me too, folk … see ya, and thanks for coming

rjjusu: I’ve written. See you, David

TAWN3: Night David

rjjusu: And David

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:03 P.M. EDT.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 5-24-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT “Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 5-24-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

“Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
To start with a metaphor from American baseball, in 1958, Robert A. Heinlein checked the runners, went into a full windup, and drilled a fastball just above the knees and straight across the center of the plate, striking out the side again, when he published the latest in his long series of very successful juvenile science-fiction novels, Have Space Suit–Will Travel, the story of Clifford “Kip” Russell, a seventeen-year-old, who for the past few years prior to the adventure of the novel, despite little encouragement to do so from an indifferent educational system, and a complacent society, had been preparing himself–and being prepared–for adult life.

It received the Sequoia Award, as the best juvenile novel of the year.

At the same time he released that fastball, Mr. Heinlein also let loose a second pitch, a long slow curve (or screwball, which to explain for denizens of the former empire upon which the sun never set, curves the perhaps even more deceptive other way), which is–to continue my strained metaphor–just about to arrive at the plate now for us of the reading group.

In 1889–almost seventy years earlier–newly wed sometimes essayist, playwright, actor, railway clerk, teacher, and journalist Jerome K. Jerome, who was proud to pitch his writings to the educational and popular tastes of emerging lower and lower middle-class ‘philistines’ of Late Victorian Britain, began writing what was intended to be a serialized light guidebook-cum-history of the Thames River, with occasional flurries of humorous relief, seeking to take advantage of the then extremely popular pastime among all, but especially the same lower middle classes, of recreational boating on that same river.

That serialized novel became Jerome’s one famous book: Three Men in a Boat–To Say Nothing of the Dog!

So what does that have to do with this reading group? Or with that second slow pitch now about to pass over the plate Heinlein released back in 1958?

Two things: one now, and one later.

For now, we can return to the opening lines of Have Space Suit–Will Travel.

Kip narrates:

“You see, I had this space suit.

How it happened went this way.

‘Dad,’ I said, ‘I want to go to the Moon.’

‘Certainly,’ he answered, and looked back to his book. It was Jerome K. Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat, which he must know by heart.

I said, ‘Dad, please, I’m serious.’

This time he closed the book gently on a finger and said, gently, ‘I said it was all right. Go ahead.’

‘Yes, but how?’

‘Eh?’ He looked mildly surprised. ‘Why that’s your problem, Clifford.'”

The ‘juvenile novel’ then commences to relate a bit Clifford’s preparation for just that object–going to the Moon, involving such unlikely items as entering in the summer before his high school graduation a slogan-writing contest for a television advertiser, Skyway Soap, which offers as first prize, a trip to the Moon.

“I like Skyway Soap because–it … is … as … pure … as … the … sky … itself!”

Kip is one of eleven contestants who submit that winning entry, but his entry is postmarked tenth or eleventh, and so he ‘wins’ a worn-out space suit once used in construction of one of Earth’s artificial satellites.

With time on his hands, awaiting answers to his applications for college scholarships, Clifford puts the suit back into operational shape. And the ‘adventure’ contained in this juvenile novel then ensues …

Okay, fine. Now the second thing: Three years ago, in 1998, author Connie Willis wrote: To Say Nothing of the Dog, or, How We Found the Bishop’s Bird Stump at Last. She dedicated it: “To Robert A. Heinlein, Who in Have Space Suit–Will Travel, first introduced me to Jerome K. Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat, To Say Nothing of the Dog”

It ultimately won the Hugo Award for best science fiction novel of the year.

Last Saturday, Miss Willis was kind enough to agree to be a guest author and visit our reading group chats. I will be setting up the specific dates and times of her specific visit with her later this week. Meanwhile, to prepare for that later visit, I suggest, in this preliminary meeting, we take a look at these three works to see what binds them–and perhaps other works of both authors–together.

I submit one thing that may bind them is ‘humor’–humor with a specific purpose–and that purpose is important to an assessment of Heinlein’s juvenile and adult writings.


Theme: “Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings.

Date and Times: Thursday, May 24, 2001, and Saturday, May 26, 2001, hours of each meeting TBA.

Place: On Aim in the “Heinlein Readers Group chat” room, as ever.

Suggested Reading: Robert A. Heinlein’s Have Space Suit–Will Travel; Jerome K. Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat; and Connie Willis’ To Say Nothing of the Dog, and perhaps excerpts from other Heinlein writings, such as the passages in Stranger in a Strange Land involving Michael Valentine Smith’s efforts to understand human ‘humor.’

Regards, and I hope to see you all at these two chats, and the soon upcoming one with Miss Willis, which I will be hosting.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
AGplusone wrote:

>Suggested Reading: Robert A. Heinlein’s Have Space Suit–Will Travel; Jerome K.

>Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat; and Connie Willis’ To Say Nothing of the Dog, and

>perhaps excerpts from other Heinlein writings, such as the passages in Stranger

>in a Strange Land involving Michael Valentine Smith’s efforts to understand

>human ‘humor.’

At the risk of being accused of self promotion, a further link between Heinlein, Willis and Jerome is Number of the Beast. I once wrote a short piece for the Heinlein Journal looking at the thematic similarities and links between Three Men and NOTB.

It’s open to opinion as to whether NOTB is funny or not but there is a certain dry, wry, humour in Heinlein poking fun at himself and the clichés of pulp fiction.

In fact, a lot of the humour in Heinlein is rather caustic; he often uses it as a weapon, making Jill and Mike’s realization that human laughter is often cruel, very apt. He makes us laugh at people by presenting them as ridiculous; consider the description of the woman who wins the soap contest with Kip’s slogan (” Beaten by a postmark. A _postmark_!”)

‘”_ present the lucky winner, Mrs Xenia Donahue, of Great Falls, Montana…Mrs _Donahue_!”

To the fanfare a little dumpy woman teetered out.”‘

Kip is not beaten by just anyone; the contest gives the ultimate prize to someone totally unsuited to a moon trip, making it a travesty. This is, perhaps, because although Kip worked very hard at the contest, it was never going to be a suitable way for a hero to get his dream. Peewee’s off hand and scornful dismissal of it later on puts it in its true light;

“It was just a publicity gag, like that silly soap contest recently.” Hmm…I’m wandering off topic and this is only the second post in the thread! OK, off to read about a house built from a tesseract :-)

Jane Davitt pointed out that perhaps Number of the Beast would be a good object of study, alongside Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat, Willis’ To Say Nothing of the Dog, and Heinlein’s Have Space Suit–Will Travel, and others.

I think it excellent for study, not because the humor has similarities with the later three: it isn’t in tone or mood; but then neither is Willis’ or Jerome’s the same always in tone or mood.

The humor in Number is directed, however, at some of the same objects as the humor in Have Space Suit. For example: Kip’s father is one of those mildly subversive adults sometimes found in Heinlein’s juvenile fiction that so delight adults. He insists on paying his taxes in cash, he delights in annoying the bureaucrats by listing his occupation as spy, then compromises with “retired” spy, he doesn’t keep the conforming sort of records they would prefer. He’s his own man, marching to his own drummer, regardless of the consequences–having stepped out of the fast lane that so appeals to many to a backwater for the benefit of raising his child. Contrast Deety (and Jane before her) in Number. Viewed one way they are more than merely mildly subversive–they are criminals with their second and third sets of books for tax purposes, their hidden accounts, their delight in outlawry. And they pile up piles and piles of filthy lucre, so that Jake can pursue his own invention–which will ultimately benefit no one in his own world but himself, his wife-to-be, his daughter, and her spouse; and them only incidentally, because they go along for the ride. They leave their world behind for the black hats, who soon erase it.

There’s a difference here: Kip and Dr. Russell live in our world in our universe–and Kip doesn’t abandon it, while Deety and Jane and Jake live in a world that while it does indeed have a “J” is patently in not our world or universe, but one inhabited with beasts that may include none other than the author himself. Their world is built therefore to include only a cynical sort of humor perhaps appropriate only to certain dark- and bloody-minded adults–even, dare I say it, most appropriate to those who tend to suspect the true existence of unmarked black helicopters operating from secret bases intent on taking over our democratic institutions.

The humor in Have Space Suit was only “good-humored” mild subversion of the system, against government bureaucrats, against misguided educators, against inept teachers, against others perhaps. It’s a chuckle of laughter against human foibles that are swept aside once serious business needs be undertaken.

The humor in Number is far from good-humored. Overpay the false amount your books show due is Deety’s motto–confuse the beasts! Well, yes, sure, if you believe it’s a world inhabited only by beasts other than yourselves, then you may let them drag the beast back to his cave, ignore the nobility of Iunio, take up the offer made by the Mother Thing and go live in a luxurious zoo with her species while they rotate your world right next there to the world of the wormfaces. That’s not the ending Heinlein wrote to go with his good humor, was it?

Now look at Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog is a delightful romp. Its inherent humor is this: someone invented time-travel about 2018 intending to gain fame and fortune by obtaining financing from multinationals intent on looting the treasures of the past–you can imagine how just as easily as I can, e.g., empty out the library of Alexandria just before it burns, or get to the Comstock lode a generation or three before 1850 and remove more than just a little bit, then dynamite the tunnels and erase traces, or whatever variant of exploitation you choose. It turns out, however, that this cannot be done because you cannot bring things of the past back with you into your present–if you attempt to do so, the ‘net’ simply doesn’t open and you remain in the past. The reason for that, supposedly, is it would change the future if something significant were removed from the past. Therefore, you cannot get back to your own present, the future that no longer exists with your loot. So this scientific wonder has been turned over to academics–the historians–as a not commercially feasible invention, and they go and send others–mainly students–back to verify or establish dry statistical data.

Oxford is where this time travel operation centers itself in academic backwaters. Along comes this billionaire widow–an American for goodness sakes–with a dream of exactly restoring Coventry Cathedral to its glories before the 1940 bombing by the Luftwaffe. With her billions she offers enough to keep the operations of the history department going far into the future. They take her offer, and then find themselves so enmeshed into her desire for exact restoration that, by the time the story opens, they find themselves, all their resources, time-travelling staff, and operating budget, wholly involved to exhaustion in determining the exact dimensions and precise form of an absurdity–some atrocity of the furnishings of the Victorian Age known as “the Bishop’s bird-stump” which was a minor object d’art–forgive my use of that term: “art”–of the interior of Coventry Cathedral.

To Say Nothing is a romp of good humor, humor of manners, humor of allusion containing referents to Wodehouse’s Jeeves, to other writers of the period, to the idiosyncrasies of Victorian Britain itself.

Yet, there’s another story Willis wrote employing this time-travel gimmick that also won the Hugo Award–six years earlier–the Dooms Day Book. There’s humor of a sort in it–darkly cynical humor that chills your bones. A young lady recently become a graduate student has been sent back on the first effort to explore medieval England by an acting department head more concerned with protecting his own reputation than her safety–after all, she should be safe, they made sure to send her well before the time of the Black Plague that depopulated most of Europe, to say nothing of England itself. His reaction against a suggestion that perhaps there’s been a mistake is to deny anyone access to the laboratory to check the computations. And until he dies himself of a ‘modern-day’ plague, there it stands. And she’s left to her own devices in the past. And guess what? They did make that mistake. It’s not 1320 AD, as they thought. She’s back in the year of Our Lord, One Thousand, Three Hundred and Forty-Eight, as a clerk who fled the town of Bath finally tells her, licking his lips with his feverish swollen tongue.

So amid the humor of Dooms Day, not damned near, but everybody around her dies, before her final rescue. A different sort of humor for a different story.

The nice thing about obtaining an in-print copy of Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat, today, is that it comes within a volume containing the sequel: Three Men on a Bummel, written about twenty years after. Perhaps we might find like contrasts and comparisons in Jerome’s writings of humor before Thursday’s meeting?

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
AGplusone wrote:

>The nice thing about obtaining an in-print copy of Jerome’s Three Men in a

>Boat, today, is that it comes within a volume containing the sequel: Three Men

>on a Bummel, written about twenty years after. Perhaps we might find like

>contrasts and comparisons in Jerome’s writings of humor before Thursday’s




David, Three Men on the Bummel is to me, a book that combines humour with sadness. Its take on the German society of the time is chilling when you read it with a knowledge of the events to come.

I made the point that a lot of Heinlein’s humour can be tinged with a spice of mockery; in this book, Jerome is observing in a neutral manner but there’s no doubt that he is worried too. He was born not many miles from my birthplace, in Walsall Staffordshire but he was very fond of Germany and travelled there often. His death in 1927 spared him seeing what became of the people he describes with such affection in his books.

ddavitt wrote:

> AGplusone wrote:


> > The nice thing about obtaining an in-print copy of Jerome’s Three Men in a

> > Boat, today, is that it comes within a volume containing the sequel: Three Men

> > on a Bummel, written about twenty years after. Perhaps we might find like

> > contrasts and comparisons in Jerome’s writings of humor before Thursday’s

> > meeting?

> >

> >


> David, Three Men on the Bummel is to me, a book that combines humour with sadness.

> Its take on the German society of the time is chilling when you read it with a

> knowledge of the events to come.

> I made the point that a lot of Heinlein’s humour can be tinged with a spice of

> mockery; in this book, Jerome is observing in a neutral manner but there’s no doubt

> that he is worried too. He was born not many miles from my birthplace, in Walsall

> Staffordshire but he was very fond of Germany and travelled there often. His death

> in 1927 spared him seeing what became of the people he describes with such

> affection in his books.

Yes, editor Lewis’ excellent introductory essay to the edition I’m reading does refer to that; and so I inferred that the humor of Three Men on the Bummel which I haven’t yet read might vary a bit.

I did want to mention one thing before Thursday’s meeting about Jerome’s Three Men in a Boat, however. I don’t wish to give the impression that it is solely a hilarious misadventure.

Kip’s dad, the shadow behind HSS–WT, isn’t the sort to be enthralled by a comic book. There’s something else there. Perhaps this:

In Chapter 10, at pp.85-6, [Penguin Classic ed., 1999, London, NYC, Victoria, Ontario, and Auckland, with copyrighted introductory essay by Jeremy Lewis] that part subtitled:

“–A Restless Night”

“The boat seemed stuffy, and my head ached; so I thought I would step out
into the cool night-air. ”

“It was a glorious night. The moon had sunk and left the quiet earth alone
with the stars. It seemed as if, in the silence and the hush, while we her
children slept, they were talking with her, their sisteróconversing of
mighty mysteries in voices too vast and deep for childish human ears to
catch the sound.
“They awe us, these strange stars, so cold, so clear. We are as children
whose small feet have strayed into some dim-lit temple of the god they have
been taught to worship but know not; and, standing where the echoing dome
spans the long vista of the shadowy light, glance up, half hoping, half
afraid to see some awful vision hovering there.
“And yet it seems so full of comfort and of strength, the night. In its
great presence, our small sorrows creep away, ashamed. The day has been so
full of fret and care, and our hearts have been so full of evil and bitter
thoughts, and the world has seemed so hard and wrong to us. The Night, like
some great loving mother, gently lays her hand upon our fevered head, and
turns our little tear-stained face up to hers, and smiles, and, thought she
does not speak, we know what she would say, and lay our hot flushed cheek
against her bosom, and the pain is gone. ”

The lyrical passage carries on another full page and one-half into a lesson that to a contemplative sort might be worth looking up and reading. I think it fair to say that Heinlein told the same story in another context in “The Green Hills of Earth” and then again in _Time Enough for Love_. Editor Lewis tells us Jerome’s father, Jerome Clapp Jerome, was of “Puritan stock,” and while trained as an architect and never ordained, nevertheless displayed an aptitude for preaching, frequently doing so in Congregationalist pulpits, many of which were located in churches he designed. He evidently passed some aspects of that talent on to his elder son.

There are other passages worth noting–many; but one in particular, of some little merit, is the pageantry and importance of a historical description of a then-considered slight event occurring some six hundred and fifty years earlier around the town of Staines, in a meadow, and on, perhaps, an island adjacent thereto in the River Thames on which they three and their dog camp [e.g., Cp. 11, at pp. 93-6, under the seeming preposterous subtitle; “Historical retrospect, specially inserted for the use of schools.” Had we not ‘met the enemy and found them us,’ perhaps Walt Kelly might or Art Buchwald would insert such aid for use in our time in their little books of light humor.].

Looking forward to seeing everyone Thursday. Three Men in a Boat is in the public domain and available on-line, BTW. Try gutenburg. [Editor’s Note: Click here for Download]

“David M. Silver” wrote:

>I did want to mention one thing before Thursday’s meeting about Jerome’s Three Men in

>a Boat, however. I don’t wish to give the impression that it is solely a hilarious



>Kip’s dad, the shadow behind HSS–WT, isn’t the sort to be enthralled by a comic book

. >There’s something else there. Perhaps this: snip



Some of those bits are moving and poetical but some strike me as being a little sentimental. What did you think of the incident where they find the body of a woman in the river, who killed herself after becoming pregnant?

Perhaps it is a view I formed as a cynical youngster ( and I read these books when I was in my early teens IIRC, spurred on by HSSWT) but I always thought Jerome wrote those bits with his tongue in cheek. Notice how in general he descends from the sublime to the ridiculous;

“The little sail stood out against the purple sky, the gloaming lay around us,
wrapping the world in rainbow shadows; and behind us crept the night.
We seemed like knights of some old legend, sailing across some mystic lake into the
unknown realms of twilight, unto the great land of the sunset.
We did not go into the realm of twilight; we went slap into that punt, where those three
old men were fishing.”

It may be that I didn’t take into account the time of writing….something to discuss tomorrow


Have you read his earlier work, “The Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow”? Hilarious stuff….the editor recommends the article “On Babies” and it is a gem.

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to show up.

ddavitt: AG is hosting

ddavitt: So he should be here soon

ddavitt: Are you OK with the thinking on the Saturday chats?

ddavitt: Only Bill, me and Andy were at the discussion so it was difficult

DavidWrightSr: It’s all the same to me.

ddavitt: AG said he will host on Saturday so they will continue for a little longer

ddavitt: It really is hard in the summer especially; we do a lot at the weekend as david doesn’t get home from

DavidWrightSr: That’s good. But I wonder where he is now. I may have to leave abruptly. We are gettting a lot of

ddavitt: work till late

DavidWrightSr: thunder in the background

ddavitt: It’s not leting me write much

KMurphy165 has entered the room.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: weird. can usually get a few more lines than that on

ddavitt: Hi people

DavidWrightSr: Me too, I can only write a line and a half before it stops. ?

ddavitt: We are having a few problems with AIM; won’t allow more than a sentence or 2

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will, Hi Murphy

KMurphy165: Good evening. I have just a few minutes and thought I’d drop in to see what’s going on.

geeairmoe2: Hello, all.

ddavitt: It wanted me to upgrade and I didn’t; punishment from the AIM god obviuosly :-)

[Editor’s Note: I tried the latest version of AIM and it also has the same problem. It has an additional feature, (I mean bug). which makes it worse. The older version stopped at the limit and wouldn’t let you type further. The new version lets you keep typing past the limit, but then gives you an error message that your message is too long or too complex when you send it and you have to do the whole thing over!]

ddavitt: We are waiting for AG to show as he is hosting

DavidWrightSr: You may be right..

ddavitt: We are discussing humour tonight

ddavitt: With reference to jerome K Jerome

ddavitt: Who is linked to both Have Space Suit and, obliquely, Number of the Boat, sorry Beast

geeairmoe2: Couldn’t find any Jerome at the local library.

ddavitt: All are online

ddavitt: Project Gutenberg

DavidWrightSr: Hang on a sec. I have a URL for his books.

[Editor’s note: Link to Jerome’s works at Project Gutenberg]

ddavitt: Its hard reading on a screen though

ddavitt: I have 3 men in Boat, 3 men on Bummel and Idle Thoughts; owned them for years so this wasn’t hard for

ddavitt: once. darn this!

geeairmoe2: That’s not what I wrote.

ddavitt: Sorry; you are saying he’s not available you mean?

ddavitt: That’s sad

ddavitt: Will, Murphy, can you try typing a long sentence to see if you have problems?

geeairmoe2: Yes.

ddavitt: It will beep at you when you reach your limit

DavidWrightSr: Jane. I just tried posting the link, but this dumb AIM wouldn’t let me send it. Too long

geeairmoe2: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. A kid’ll eat ivy, too, wouldn’t you?

ddavitt: Never mind!

ddavitt: You can usually get 3 or 4 lines

ddavitt: Was that all you were allowed?

ddavitt: It says max is 2000 on the chat room info; not sure if that is the whole chat or what

geeairmoe2: I did about 3 lines. I never wrote “Message, etc.”

geeairmoe2: Didn’t AOL just bump their prices?

ddavitt: I dunno; I’m not with them

geeairmoe2: I have Netscape IM.

ddavitt: Me too

KMurphy165: I just did about 100 words of meaningless drivel and it didn’t send it.

KMurphy165: Could there be an intelligence filter inherent?

ddavitt: Hmm..OK, as long as it’s not an individual problem, then there’s not much we can do

ddavitt: Nope!!

DavidWrightSr: It’s only allow me 97 characters

ddavitt: Or we’d have noticed ;-)

ddavitt: Have to work round it

geeairmoe2: My computer knowledge extends to “push button, hope it works.”

ddavitt: Well, guess we should start then. AG isn’t online yet

geeairmoe2: Brevity is the soul of wit, after all.

ddavitt: So, has everyone read some JKJ then?

geeairmoe2: Nope.

DavidWrightSr: Negative. I just downloaded the first one today.

ddavitt: They are very funny

ddavitt: Some of the Idle Thought of an Idle Fellow, a series of essays, are very full of LL type quotations

DavidWrightSr: I may have to bail in a hurry. Thunder getting very close. Jane keep the log please. If I have to go,

DavidWrightSr: I’ll get back on as soon as possible.

ddavitt: Will do

ddavitt: OK, then, what do you think of H as a humorist?

ddavitt: Has he ever made you laugh?

ddavitt: Bits of Rolling Stones are quite amusing…especially the dialogue between the family members

geeairmoe2: Thninking.

geeairmoe2: Thinking, I mean.

DavidWrightSr: Very definitely, but I can’t remember off hand

KMurphy165: Star Beast is another

ddavitt: I don’t see him as being funny in the same way that some Asimov short stories are; few puns or punch lines

ddavitt: Ues; but it’s subtle, like the lead’s name

ddavitt: Yes I mean

ddavitt: Not laugh out loud, more inner smile stuff

DavidWrightSr: Asimov’s puns are painful >:o

KMurphy165: BRB 5 minutes

geeairmoe2: My humor goes more toward absurd, over the top.

ddavitt: Some are forced, some are funny. ‘It only stands to reason’ was good

geeairmoe2: Monty Python.

ddavitt: You were a Douglas Adams fan then?

ddavitt: Oh yes. MP is so British…

geeairmoe2: Always meant to get to him. Time, time.

ddavitt: That’s the thing about books; they live on

ddavitt: His later ones, I didn’t like but the first 3 HHG ones are great

geeairmoe2: I’ve dozens of books I have on my shelf I havn’t got to yet.

ddavitt: I suppose, the tesseract one is the most meant to be funny one

ddavitt: Me too.

geeairmoe2: He Built a Crooked House?

ddavitt: Which is good. I panic if I’m bookless

ddavitt: Yes.

ddavitt: That is written to be funny; all humour, little seriousness

EBATNM has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Andy

EBATNM: Howdy, I was here earlier but *sniff* nobody else was

ddavitt: We are looking at Heinlein as a humorist

ddavitt: No and the host is missing :-(

geeairmoe2: Strange doings. Long messages are getting cut off.

ddavitt: Hopefully David will be here soon

EBATNM: That’s OK, I’m blowing my own bassoon!

KMurphy165: me back

ddavitt: I’m half way thru your book.

ddavitt: WB!

EBATNM: I would say WB, but I wasn’t here when you left

ddavitt: It is making me feel pitifully inadequate but that’s OK I suppose…..

EBATNM: Has the epic raising of “John Thomas’ ” been discussed?

ddavitt: We touched on it ;-)

geeairmoe2: I touched nothing!

ddavitt: Just looking at He Built a Crooked House;

ddavitt: only one I can think of that was pure humour

EBATNM: Chat hates me.

ddavitt: ?

EBATNM: Jane – you just haven’t waded through all the LitCrit BS

EBATNM: (It said my message was too long or too complex)

geeairmoe2: We’re all having that trouble.

ddavitt: maybe not. Bits of it I grok..other bits I don’t. S’OK, it’s a learning experience

ddavitt: It seems to be all of us so we can’t do anything

geeairmoe2: Gremlins limiting message length tonight.

ddavitt: Just going to have to write little bits at a time

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Denv

DenvToday: Evening everybody!

DavidWrightSr: We might need to use protocol to keep things from being too split.

ddavitt: See how it goes

geeairmoe2: Hi Denv.

DenvToday: Hi :-)


ddavitt: Denv, Andy, Jerome K Jerome was to be part of the chat; have either of you read him?

geeairmoe2: We’re having gremlins, Denv. Message length being limited.

EBATNM: Only 3 Men in a Boat

DenvToday: I see.

ddavitt: Did you like it?

ddavitt: Or, to keep topical, can you see why Kip’s dad liked it?

EBATNM: As I remember (it was at least 15 yr ago) I thought it was a major hoot

ddavitt: I love it and the other books by him I’ve read; been reading them almost as long as Heinlein.

DavidWrightSr: Kip noted that he must know it by heart. Somewhat like what I do with RAH.

ddavitt: Space Suit put me onto him, as it did Willis

ddavitt: Yes; I read it in a sort of fog, I know it so well, I don’t have to really read it, more immerse in it

EBATNM: JKJ – played around with levels – he describes a real cad

EBATNM: until you discover he is talking about his dog

ddavitt: Montmorency is cool

EBATNM: Kip’s dad reads him the epic can opening scene

ddavitt: I need AG; I want to argue that the poetical bits are tongue in cheek, not serious

geeairmoe2: I bypass author dedications. If I’d seen it before in “Dog” I’d have looked for ‘3 Men” sooner.

EBATNM: I haven’t read anything else by JKJ

EBATNM: dunno why

ddavitt: Really? Wonder if that book will prompt a resurgence of interest in 3 men?

ddavitt: The sequel to 3 men is quite weird


ddavitt: It’s just as funny but because it’s about germany in 1900, you keep reading deep significance into it

ddavitt: For instance, he finishes with this:

ddavitt: They are a good people, a lovable people, who should do much to make the world better

ddavitt: The irony is all unintentional but…

EBATNM: Wasn’t that before the great German/England naval (as in Warships) arm’s race?

ddavitt: He describes the Mensur; the swordfights that oscar Gordon mentions

ddavitt: Yes, possibly

ddavitt: It sickens him; they scar themselves deliberately, blood pouring everywhere. Very gruesome

ddavitt: He also goes on and on about how law abiding they are and how they will do anyhting they are told by

ddavitt: someone in authority

EBATNM: around 1900 Germany was actually considered the Wave of the Future

EBATNM: Cutting edge Modernism (tho’ they didn’t use that word)

ddavitt: JKJ loved Germany. In fact, i think one of the 3 men was german; they were real people but he changed

ddavitt: them a bit

EBATNM: “blood everywhere” is the good ol’ Prussian way

ddavitt: It seems barbaric

geeairmoe2: What year were “3 Men” and the sequel published?

ddavitt: Oscar wanted some heidleburg scars but I wonder if he really would have?

EBATNM: RAH also talks about them in “Glory Road”

ddavitt: Hang on

ddavitt: 1900 for sequel

ddavitt: 1889 for Boat

DavidWrightSr: Not just Prussians. Heidelberg is in Bavaria and they did much the same. Remember Zim’ question —.

ddavitt: Yes, oscar from GR

DavidWrightSr: He asked the recruit if he picked up his scars from Heidelberg and the answer was “nein- no sir, Koenigsberg”.

ddavitt: Oh yes!

ddavitt: Wonder if that was related to the JKJ lecture on it?Maybe, maybe not

ddavitt: Kip’s dad seemed to like their resourcefulness with the tin

ddavitt: Kip has to show a lot of that; rigging up the air bottles on the moon for example

ddavitt: He also makes a long trip and comes home after seeing the sightsa

EBATNM: rats, just going to say that

ddavitt: Perhaps we should apply 3 men to it a little more closely?

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: I did a piece about 3 men and NOTB once but I only just thought of it this way

ddavitt: With regard to HSS…hmm, interesting!

EBATNM: I’ll have to re-read it to find the parallels

ddavitt: Could be fun

ddavitt: Hey; he eats tinned stuff doesn’t he?

DavidWrightSr: I’m not up on RAH’s sources, (insprirations?), but I suspect that you will the same ones in most of —

DavidWrightSr: his works

EBATNM: and there is a bit about finding a can opener


DenvToday: pineapple!

ddavitt: Just checked; he says the cans open themselves Rats

ddavitt: That’s what i based my theory on. Has anyone read it?

ddavitt: Plaintive query?

ddavitt: It was in the Heinlein Journal a year or so ago

geeairmoe2: Didn’t “Dog” have something about a missing tin opener?

ddavitt: I think it did; I will have to re read it in time for the chat

EBATNM: uh, er – um (no)

ddavitt: Shucks! as Sir Isaac would say

DenvToday: I remember the disappearing pie.

ddavitt: I like it when George is laughing because someone’s shirt falls overboard..until he discovers it’s his

ddavitt: 3 men has so many stories that are classic jokes..but I don’t know if JKJ invented them or not

ddavitt: Like the fish made out of plaster of Paris

ddavitt: That’s an old chestnut…but how old?

ddavitt: The pie bit was good…they think he’s gone to heaven and regret that the pie went too

DenvToday: yes

EBATNM: I’m going to HAVE TO re-read it

ddavitt: Yep.

ddavitt: I think H is rarely funny in the JKJ mode…I see him as using humour as a weapon more than to amuse

ddavitt: Sir isaac is funny mind you and so is Lummox..

ddavitt: But they are also very intelligent and dignified at other points in the story

ddavitt: H often makes us laugh AT people which can be a bit unkind

EBATNM: RAH really only used humor as a change of pace, it wasn’t a regular tool

ddavitt: Yet so many of his influences were humorists.Twain for instance

geeairmoe2: http://members.nbci.com/3MenBoat/

EBATNM: But Twain can be extremely bitter – almost an angry humor (or humour)

ddavitt: Not that that means he has to copy them of course…

ddavitt: true..

ddavitt: back to humour as a weapon

ddavitt: You’ll have to put up with my English spelling:-)

EBATNM: go for it, eh?

ddavitt: I have enough trouble typing and trying to correct typos, never mind anything else.

ddavitt: Yes, Canada is quite sensible. And they say zed not zee

ddavitt: :-):-)

geeairmoe2: About becomes aboot.

ddavitt: Well, sort of. i suspect it depends on regional accents.

ddavitt: Tho canada does seem to be less prone to that than Britain.

ddavitt: Apart from Newfoundland apparently

ddavitt: Everyone else sounds the same.

ddavitt: I wouldn’t know; they all sound canadian and I suspect all us Brits sound the same to them

geeairmoe2: In “Diamonds Are Forever” CIA agent Felix Leiter tells James Bond, pretending to be American …

ddavitt: I have a cute accent and they could listen to me all day

ddavitt: Or so I’m told.

geeairmoe2: … Never say “actually”, it would give him away as a Brit.

ddavitt: True.

ddavitt: And we say I suppose, not I guess

KMurphy165: well, it’s time to go, so ‘bye

KMurphy165 has left the room.

ddavitt: Thanks for dropping in!

ddavitt: In Stranger, h makes a lot of humour being a touchstone of a human

ddavitt: ‘man is the anmimal that laughs”

ddavitt: Does it follow that someone with no sense of humour isn’t human?

EBATNM has left the room.

geeairmoe2: Didn’t someone claim humor has its roots in pain.

ddavitt: In Stranger Jill decides something like that

ddavitt: All jokes are cruel at base

ddavitt: But it’s also our way of coping

ddavitt: I used to hate the sick jokes that circulated after a disaster

ddavitt: I wonder now if they are a method of reducing a tragedy to manageable proportions

geeairmoe2: “Chuckles the Clown Bites the Dust” on Mary Tyler Moore. Classic.

ddavitt: I still don’t like them though.

ddavitt: Know her name, don’t know that. More?

geeairmoe2: A man dressed like a peanut crushed to death by an elephant.

ddavitt: Not a pun!

ddavitt: Ah…

geeairmoe2: Everyone keeps joking about it except Mary.

ddavitt: There’s something very satisfying about a good joke…but I can never remember any.

ddavitt: Wasn’t there an Asimov story about that?

EBATNM has entered the room.

ddavitt: They trace the origins of a joke , find out it was aliens experimenting.

EBATNM: sorry, got bumped

ddavitt: All humour goes

ddavitt: Happens!

geeairmoe2: I remember the Monty Pthyon bit; the deadly joke that …

geeairmoe2: … made people die laughing.

ddavitt: Yu missed a lot of wild excitement.

ddavitt: That rings a bell. I have laughed until it hurt and tears were pouring down my face..

ddavitt: Not terrible nice really!

ddavitt: Ever been tickled? That can be really nasty!

geeairmoe2: In the movie “Porkys”, a scene in the principal’s office.

ddavitt: The feeling of helplessness is awful

ddavitt: ga

geeairmoe2: A male student had exposed himself through a hole in the girl’s shower.

geeairmoe2: The woman’s PE teacher wanted a “line-up” to identify his member.

geeairmoe2: The funny part is her earnestness while the others are trying to keep strait faces.

geeairmoe2: One teached suggests a police artist come sketch it and they hang up wanted posters.

ddavitt: A Canadian movie IIRC. But maybe they’d rather forget that

ddavitt: Hmm…

geeairmoe2: I literally ended up rolling on the floor.

ddavitt: Is most humour sexual? Most adult humour anyway/

ddavitt: Is that the funniest subject there is?

ddavitt: Apart from dying?

geeairmoe2: Sex and death. Covers both ends.

ddavitt: Depressing thought is so…

ddavitt: But why are they funny?

geeairmoe2: Becuase we take them so seriously.

DavidWrightSr: Recall Mannie, Mycroft, Wyoming and Michelles discussion on jokes.

ddavitt: Because they are our most honest moments and we need to cloak them in laughter?

ddavitt: Yes…they decided men and women have different takes on it..which fits I suppose

geeairmoe2: Sex embarasses us; death frightens us?

EBATNM: RAH says in SIASL that humor is the why humans deal with tragedy

ddavitt: I think so.

ddavitt: Humour once again as a weapon, a nighlight against the darkness

EBATNM: That’s the importance of the scene in the Monkey House – When Mike learns

EBATNM: he is human

ddavitt: If you do something embarrasing and laugh it off, you preempt the mockery. it’s a defence too

EBATNM: or a defensive attack

ddavitt: Not very edifying though. Or is it? If only the highest life form laughs, then it has to be good…

ddavitt: I think.

ddavitt: Ultimate lie; ‘Sticks and stones may break…”

geeairmoe2: We poke fun at ourselves so others see how we’re not uppity and full of ourselves.

ddavitt: It;s multipurpose

EBATNM: And to bring in MIAHM that is the conclusion Mannie and Wye come to when they discuss jokes

ddavitt: Very useful!

ddavitt: What is their conclusion then?

ddavitt: trying to recall, memory going

geeairmoe2: memory … gone.

EBATNM: I used to have a good memory – I think

ddavitt: Does Mike ever learn to laugh? He has an orgasm when he drops the bombs, so he’s half way there..

EBATNM: sex is a way of “growing closer” humor is a way of separation

ddavitt: That he even wants to learn is maybe proof of his emerging humanity

ddavitt: We can’t bear too much intimacy…insecurity

ddavitt: Isn’t there something in Stranger abaout the Nest being quiet..lots of smiles but not much laughter?

ddavitt: Or am I thinking of Lost legacy?

ddavitt: Which had a similar set up

ddavitt: A colony of like minded elite

EBATNM: In Stranger – Jubal never sees them laugh.

geeairmoe2: Sounds familiar, can’t place it.

EBATNM: In the Nest. That’s because they have transcended Life-as-Tragedy

ddavitt: They don’t need humour anymore?

EBATNM: Mike can laugh only when he groks the Tragedy of human existence – if you live in

EBATNM: joy you don’t need humor

ddavitt: Interesting…

geeairmoe2: Bothersome to me in “Stranger” is the absence of grief among his followers when Mike is killed.

geeairmoe2: No humor, no grief.

ddavitt: JUBAL was sad…couldn’t undersatnd why they weren’t

geeairmoe2: Both are human essentials.

ddavitt: Then he went away and was finally healed, THEN he wasn’t sad either

ddavitt: Weird. But I’m not martian

ddavitt: The Nest people weren’t human. They were hybrids

ddavitt: It didn’t appeal to me much.

EBATNM: grieving is a part of the Life-as-Tragedy mindset. Mike didn’t die, he just went back to Heaven

EBATNM: the early Christians, some early Christians, didn’t grieve either

EBATNM: they thought the “dead” were going home to Heaven

ddavitt: Yes; going to a better place.

ddavitt: Sorry, that’s too …hard to grasp for earthbound little me.

ddavitt: Someone i love dies, I won’t see them again. I will feel sorry darn it!

EBATNM: That’s because you don’t have the Martian/English Secret Decoder Ring

ddavitt: I’m just a primitive :-)

geeairmoe2: They’re in a better place, but you’re still subject to tribulations.

EBATNM: If RAH, and I have no idea what his private thoughts were, really thought humor was linked

ddavitt: I think the Nest people gave up a lot when they transcended that humour/sadness bit

EBATNM: to tragedy maybe that’s the reason he didn’t use it more

ddavitt: Possibly.

ddavitt: Ok, turn it round. Look at his sad bits

ddavitt: Death of Dora, Man Who travelled…no humour?

ddavitt: Does it only work one way?

EBATNM: Mary Sperling going over to the Little People

ddavitt: Not funny though?

ddavitt: It’s possible to be sad without any vestige of humour but not to be funny without a tinge of sadness

ddavitt: a=b but b doesn’t equal a

ddavitt: Illogical..

EBATNM: Dora’s death is an interesting little bit and I’ve never thought about the implications

ddavitt: Well, it has lots for LL; it’s a pivotal moment but there is absolutely no smiles about it.

ddavitt: Or maybe it’s bitter sweet…

ddavitt: There should be a better word for that.

EBATNM: so humor only a sometime help for dealing with Tragedy

ddavitt: Maybe only for use in large scale tragedies or ones that don’t affect you personally

ddavitt: Going back to Space Suit

EBATNM: or a shifting of cognitive/emotional levels, puns for example

ddavitt: They trek over the moon; only to be caught and flown back.

EBATNM: Why Not?

ddavitt: KIp says, he didn’t know whether to laugh or cry

ddavitt: Both equally apt reactions yet opposites

geeairmoe2: You laugh when you understand the inevitablity of failure.

geeairmoe2: can be overcome with renewed effort.

geeairmoe2: becuase success is invitable, too.

geeairmoe2: You just never know which is coming up next.

ddavitt: Just noticed Andy; Anatomy of Melancholy gets mentioned in Space Suit too.

ddavitt: True, Will.

geeairmoe2: Laugh at failure when your secure in the knowledge all failure is temporary.

ddavitt: “You have to laugh, don’t you?”

ddavitt: Loomat the end of Life of Brian; Always Look on The Bright Side of Life

ddavitt: Look

EBATNM: one definition of insanity is repeating actions and expecting different results

ddavitt: hah, i do that all the time!

ddavitt: What about when your car won’t start and you keep turning the key?

ddavitt: Eventually it might kick in…or the battery will go dead

geeairmoe2: Push the button harder when something doesn’t work.

ddavitt: If you hit someone once, you will get a different reaction than when you hit them three times

ddavitt: I guarantee it!

EBATNM: Talking to an inanimate object “Give me back my money, you thief!”

geeairmoe2: You can also laugh after failure because you’re a little smarter. You know what doesn’t work.

ddavitt: It’s a learning tool

DavidWrightSr: I push the button harder on the elevator to make it go faster :-)

geeairmoe2: Ah-ha becomes ha-ha.

ddavitt: Nice!

ddavitt: Tell that one to Sean:-)

EBATNM: There’s the bit with the cheap spaceship in CAT

EBATNM: it thinks 4 (?) is 3.99999999999999999999999

ddavitt: Thta’s funny, yes. Slapstick

ddavitt: But deadly; it crashes and nearly kills them.

ddavitt: Gwen fixes it with a swift thump IIRC

EBATNM: how about the guy in the rolligon who has his handweapon on the inside of this p-suit

EBATNM: and dies trying to get it out

geeairmoe2: Darwin Award nominee.

ddavitt: Well, that’s stupid; darwin’s award type behaviour

ddavitt: GMTA

EBATNM: what does IIRC mean?

ddavitt: Do we laugh at him? Or just feel scornful?

geeairmoe2: If I Recall Correctly

EBATNM: Iowa-Illinois Railroad Cars?

ddavitt: What about the mum who wants bloodhounds to search for her child…on the moon?

geeairmoe2: I used to think GMTA had something to do with tome zones.

geeairmoe2: time.

ddavitt: I was all at sea with them when I first joined the net.

geeairmoe2: I still refuse to use TiTS for Tunnel in the Sky.

ddavitt: My first ever post and someone answered with a terse, “URL”. I thought he was being insulting

ddavitt: Me too. Tunnel will do just as well

DavidWrightSr: You just did!

geeairmoe2: To demonstrate a point I’ll equivocate.

EBATNM: what about male vs. female humor?

ddavitt: Well, I’m the only female so you won’t be getting a representaive spread of opinion

EBATNM: Wye thinks Michelle knows some really funny jokes Mannie wouldn’t get

ddavitt: But will all you guys think the same things are funny?

ddavitt: Oh very probably.

EBATNM: I don’t know a single female that likes the 3 Stooges, I think their a hoot

ddavitt: We get raunchier than you.

EBATNM: oops, “they’re”

ddavitt: We had a girls’s night out once..with one boyfriend who tagged along

ddavitt: He was terrified by the end of the night

ddavitt: We forgot he was there and talked naturally..

EBATNM: he was a wimp

geeairmoe2: Terrified? or disillustioned.

ddavitt: Dunno. Not met many men who can cope when we really let our hair down

ddavitt: Alcolhol helps but isn’t mandatory

ddavitt: See, we TALK, you don’t

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: We discuss stuff and we’re honest about it.

EBATNM: that’s because men are, uh, -like – ya’know inarticulate

ddavitt: Sex isn’t sacred.

geeairmoe2: We do well enough with monosylabalic grunts.


ddavitt: And it’s something we share a lot of talking about.

ddavitt: You men just lie about it

ddavitt: We swap details and ask for advice

ddavitt: Gosh, I’m probably breaking all sorts of rules here…

ddavitt: You all shouldn’t know this stuff…

DavidWrightSr: Remember DeeDee and Hilda in NOTB. They said much the same

ddavitt: OK, back to H then; does he incorporate the female POV well?

geeairmoe2: I suspect you just CLAIM those things just to keep us off stride.

ddavitt: Did Ginny help maybe?

ddavitt: Wonder away…

ddavitt: My lips are sealed again.

ddavitt: Yes, they did. It’s true. At least by my experience it is

EBATNM: Virginia Heinlein’s contribution to the corpus is an area that really needs research

ddavitt: Ok, out on a limb; did you ever ask a mate how to do oral sex?

ddavitt: I remember many a discussion about that as a teenager…

EBATNM: My lips are sealed.

ddavitt: darn useful too…


geeairmoe2: Didn’t he write Podkayne after someone claimed a man couldn’t First Person a female character?

ddavitt: Puddin I think

ddavitt: It all goes back to embarrasment again

ddavitt: Men have got more chance of being embarrased during sex than us so they take it more seriously

EBATNM: Yes, the Puddin’ stories are, according to rumor, the result of a major fight with John Campbell

ddavitt: I thought it was a female editor?

ddavitt: I assumed Alice?

EBATNM: an agent submitted Podkayne to Campbell mistakenly and Campbell sent a large letter back

ddavitt: Oops, baby is stirring, She’s stopped sleeping through:-(

EBATNM: telling RAH all the mistakes he made

ddavitt: I will have to go.

ddavitt: We didn’t have a break did we?

ddavitt: Sorry, you had to put up with me, not the original host.

geeairmoe2: The Campbell-Podkayne episode was mentioned in Grumbles.

ddavitt: Actually, maybe David is doing Saturday and thought I would do tonight…

geeairmoe2: You done good.

ddavitt: Doesn;t matter.

ddavitt: Thank you! Dave are you OK for the log then? No missing bits?

EBATNM has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. Igot it

EBATNM has entered the room.

ddavitt: OK, enjoy the rest of the chat and thaks everyone. There will be a Saturday chat for this one.

EBATNM: bye –

ddavitt: After that, maybe only when we have a guest. No volunteers yet :-(

ddavitt: Night all.

ddavitt has left the room.

EBATNM: I’ve got to go, also – talk to everyone later

EBATNM has left the room.

geeairmoe2: I’ve hit my time limit, too. Night, all.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night Will.

DavidWrightSr: Well, nobody left but us chickens.

DavidWrightSr: I guess I’ll close the log then.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 10:56 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 05-12-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Guest Author: L. Neil Smith

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 05-12-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Guest Author: L. Neil Smith

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

rjjusu has entered the room.

rjjusu: You logging?

DavidWrightSr: Greetings. Looks like we are early. Yes

rjjusu: Okay. I thought I’d show up and get myself settled in, then wait for the Seventh Continental Congress to start….

DavidWrightSr: I know what you mean.

DavidWrightSr: You are Randy Jost?

rjjusu: I reread The Probability Broach last night, and picked up Forge of the Elders a little while ago, but don’t think I can finish it before the official start of today’s activities.

rjjusu: Yes, I am.

DavidWrightSr: Thought I remembered that

rjjusu: Newly relocated from Las Cruces, NM to Logan, UT.

rjjusu: Newly being a somewhat relative term.

E1Nei1 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Neil.

E1Nei1: Howdy! I signed on early ’cause I wasn’t sure I could do it right again.

DavidWrightSr: You got it right

E1Nei1: Guess so.

rjjusu: You did it well, and without a government permit, no less.

DavidWrightSr: We don’t need no stinking permits

E1Nei1: No less. Should be a couple of my friends along at some point.

ddavitt has entered the room.

rjjusu: I reread the Probability Broach last night – some excellent historical references buried in there.

ddavitt: Hi everyone

E1Nei1: Thanks. Hi, Jane.

rjjusu: Hi Jane!

ddavitt: Sad day; just heard about Douglas Adams when I phoned my mum in England

E1Nei1: What about him?

DavidWrightSr: He just died.

ddavitt: Did he get as big in the US as he did in the UK?

ddavitt: Only 49 or so…

E1Nei1: I expect so.

rjjusu: What happened?

E1Nei1: His stuff was on PBS here.

ddavitt: Heart attack I think

E1Nei1: It happens. I had two when I was 47

rjjusu: Comes of pondering 42, too much. He will be missed. There’s not enough humor in SF these days, unless you count the unintentional type.

ddavitt: We were a happy house before that; David’s football ( soccer) team won the FA Cup; Liverpool

E1Nei1: All better now.

ddavitt: Ah well…

ddavitt: Glad to hear that Neil

ddavitt: Holt Rankin and Pratchett are our favourites

ddavitt: Though they all have a dark edge to them sometimes

E1Nei1: My daughter’s first computer game was Addams’ _Starship Titanic_.

rjjusu: Neil, you might want to BOLD your type, so it is easier for Ginny to read.

ddavitt: Couldn’t get into that book though.

E1Nei1: Right.

ddavitt: Actualy, tho i loved the first HHGTTG stuff the last book was terrible

ddavitt: Dirk Gently books were good

E1Nei1: Yeah.

rjjusu: The Infocom game was pretty good also, if you ever ran across that one.

ddavitt: No, not heard of that one

rjjusu: Much like the Zork games, but followed HHGttG pretty well. Adams was quite involved in it, and made sure it went true to the story.

ddavitt: The books were very English; does that help or hinder in the US market?

rjjusu: Depends on the story, I think.

E1Nei1: Depends on the reader.

ddavitt: I mean, did you all get the Ford Prefect joke?:-)

EBATNM has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

rjjusu: One of my favorite writers was Eric Frank Russell – always liked his stuff.

EBATNM: hello

ddavitt: Know the name…not read any


E1Nei1: I know about the Ford, but I was married for 6 years to a woman who lived in Engl;and for 12.

ddavitt: That would help

E1Nei1: Russell always seemed to write to an American audience. Good stuff.

rjjusu: I think a lot of people over here like Pratchett also.

ddavitt: I’ll look out for it

E1Nei1: Robert LeFevre claimed to have converted Russell to libertarianism.

ddavitt: We( that’s David and I) read him when no one knew him. Glad to see our good taste viindicated !

EBATNM: Rumor hath it that Russell’s wife complained mightily that he was writing that trashy “Sci-Fi” stuff.

rjjusu: Yes, I was glad that EFR found a pretty ready audience. I know Alan Dean Foster appreciated what EFR wrote.

E1Nei1: Always liked “Plus X”.

rjjusu: I like the Jay Score stories, also.

E1Nei1: Yes!!

ddavitt: He is a very nice man. Did David’s uncle a favour; he was terminally ill and Pratchett sent him an advance copy of his latest book so he could read it.

E1Nei1: Advance copy — tried the same thing with Rowling for a kid with cancer. Her agent was an absolute jerk.

ddavitt: Sad that she probably never got to see that request

E1Nei1: Right.

ddavitt: Before we start, can I just do a bit of chat business?

EBATNM: ElNeil – do you happen to know what happened to Robert LeFevre’s personal library? He had a copy of MIAHM inscribed, by Heinlein “To Professor La Paz”.

ddavitt: I think it would be a good idea to have a break in the summer, any thoughts on this?

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: The Saturday chats will get very hard for me to attend.

ddavitt: Hi Kultsi

EBATNM: since I seem to miss about every other chat it’s “macht’s nichts” to me

DavidWrightSr: I could use it.

KultsiKN: Hello all!

ddavitt: Just discussing a summer break Kultsi

ddavitt: I think we have had them in the past?

KultsiKN: Can’t say

ddavitt: Unless someone wants to take over hosting Saturdays?

E1Nei1: Could somebody invite Ron — DenvToday — in? I don’t know how, and he’s having trouble.

KultsiKN: Still, suits me

ddavitt: And possibly change the time to suit Europeans better?

ddavitt: Sure

ddavitt: Says he’s not available

KultsiKN: Denv’s not online

SAcademy has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny.

E1Nei1: I’m talking to him now. Page won’t respond to him.

ddavitt: Hi Ginny

SAcademy: ello all.

E1Nei1: Hello, Ginny.

ddavitt: Gremlins again I see

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny.

ddavitt: Maybe he could reboot?

SAcademy: Hi Kultsi, how’s everything in Finland today?

KultsiKN: Sunny and warm, thank you.

SAcademy: Spring has come?

KultsiKN: At last, yes!

ddavitt: So, would an earlier chat be good for you Kultsi?

SAcademy: Good we’ve been having thunder showers here.

ddavitt: You, Francesco and Sean are about the only regular non US side of the Atlantic people who come to this chat

KultsiKN: Well, midnight Saturday is not impossible, but an earlier time would, of course, be better.

ddavitt: Well, it’s getting hard for me on a Sat; Thursday is no problem

ddavitt: Now I have lauren on the floor next to me crying…as david is mending the car

ddavitt: Thursday’s both children are in bed which is peaceful:-)

ddavitt: Well, think about it folks.

ddavitt: OK, shall we start the chat then?

ddavitt: Anyone have a question who wasn’t at the first chat?

DavidWrightSr: I’ll put out a request to my mailing list to see if a better time or break is preferred. I’ve done something to change my font and I don’t know what it is!

rjjusu: I’m seeing Ron now, but the software won’t let me invite him. Anyone else?

ddavitt: I still don’t see him on my buddy list

KultsiKN has left the room.

ddavitt: It does look different Dave

rjjusu: David, go to View and Edit Chat Preferences

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Hello all!

ddavitt: Neil, I’ll kick off with a question then; which Heinlein character appeals to you the most and why?

ddavitt: Glad you made it Ron

DenvToday: Thanks :-)

rjjusu: Then select General to change font.

E1Nei1: Hi, Ron!

DenvToday: Hi Neil!

E1Nei1: Answer …

E1Nei1: It’s very hard to choose. Probably Manny or the Prof.

ddavitt: So i guess that answers the favourite book question too….

ddavitt: But they are very different characters?

ddavitt: Prof knows what he’s doing and is in charge. mannie is more of a pawn

E1Nei1: Yeah, but that’s not my favorite book. Door into Summer is, I think.

rjjusu: I disagree. A true pawn has no choice, and Mannie did make a choice.

ddavitt: Prof sees himself as a type of libertarian I suppose but does mannie?

DenvToday: You’ve got to admit, RAH is one of the first to write about nudist camps.

E1Nei1: You could be right, Ron!

ddavitt: Doesn’t Pro describe himself as a rational anarchist?

rjjusu: But you can agree on a cause, with very different philosophical backgrounds. I think Mannie had the Laissez-faire attitude, without the intellectual underpinnings. He just knew what worked for him.

ddavitt: I like the inventions in Door; a man who concentrates on making housework easier is my kind of man!

ddavitt: And Pete is a great cat

E1Nei1: That’s a good descrition. It’s complicated for me, because I knew LeFevre. Very interesting man.

rjjusu: Auto Lauren feeder???

ddavitt: Are you a cat person neil? Most Heinlein readers are but I don’t know if that’s a coincidence or not

ddavitt: Cool!

E1Nei1: Definite cat person. Have two at the moment.

DenvToday: RAH was precient in Door Into Summer. Products are designed today in much the same way he described more than 40 years ago.

ddavitt: But we’re not there yet on some of them…

ddavitt: The picture page on alt fan heinlein has us and our cats and children…

ddavitt: looking forward to seeing Snowy when it gets updated Ginny

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: Welcome back

DenvToday: Hello Kults

E1Nei1: I think my second favorite RAH book is _Double Star_

KultsiKN: Thx, Jane. Network probs, I think. Real gremlins.

ddavitt: I find that a sad story because Lorenzo gets lost

ddavitt: He becomes someone else…

rjjusu: Neil, I like that one very much, especially taken in concert with Magic, Inc. Both show some great insight into political processes…

ddavitt: Tragic sacrifice

DenvToday: Neil, remember the movie “Dave” a few years back? They owe RAH royalties. Of course, The Prisoner of Zenda came first. As did The Prince and the Pauper.

EBATNM has left the room.

rjjusu: File off those serial numbers…..

DenvToday: lol rjj. Exactly.

E1Nei1: It’s the Tribble Effect, Ron.

DenvToday: I’m glad you took the Trouble to point that out.

ddavitt: Groan!

DenvToday: There is no pun too low. My personal motto.

DavidWrightSr: Old chinese philosopher One Pun Low

rjjusu: A punishing one it is.

DenvToday: lol

EBATNM has entered the room.

DenvToday: wb EB

rjjusu: Neil, how does one stay a libertarian and avoid the trap of “logical extremes”? How do you decide which tightwire to walk and which to avoid?

E1Nei1: Most people regard me as pretty extreme. I take moderation in moderation.

ddavitt: “Moderation is for monks…”

DenvToday: Personally, I find you consistent. Moderation in politics means aggression against innocents.

E1Nei1: I do pick my battles, though. I concentrate a lot on the politics of self-defense

rjjusu: What part is the extreme part? I didn’t see too much extremism in The Proabability Broach

ddavitt: You seem to take the gun ownership issue very seriously..is that something you stress in your fiction?

E1Nei1: It’s too extreme for a lot of folks. You must be a peron of principle.

E1Nei1: Yes, Jane. I do.

rjjusu: The golden rule (BOTH versions) is pretty mainstream.

ddavitt: Is it useful to have a vehicle ( your books) for expressing your POV?

ddavitt: Do you feel it would compromise you to write to a more general audience? Be more mainstream?

rjjusu: Don’t forget that POV also stands for “Privately” Owned Vehicle.

E1Nei1: Hmmm …

ddavitt: I don’t mean write something you don’t beleive in, as Heinlein had to with red planet, but just tone down the message?

E1Nei1: I guess I cold water down what I write and make more money. Won’t happen, though. I started writing expressly to push my politics. People ask me to tone down all the time. I quote Russell: “I won’t!”

DavidWrightSr: When you mentioned Admiral Heinlein in our discussion Thursday, it got me to thinking. How does a setup as in TPB get professional military. Seems that would be difficult?

rjjusu: The power of No.

ddavitt: I can respect that decision, though I probably don’t agree with some of your stances on issues.

E1Nei1: It’s easier to get professional military in a free market economy. It’s easier to get everything.

rjjusu: Depends on you definition of professional military. I consider myself a professional military man, though I have been in the reserves the last 12 years. If there is a need, I will be there.

rjjusu: I think your real question is how is there a professional military if you can question the authority above you.

ddavitt: Like our Home Guard in WW2?

DavidWrightSr: My impression was that most people in TPB accepted NO authority above them. Was I wrong?

DenvToday: rjj, if you enter a military organization freely, knowing that you agree to obey its authority (within limits), then there’s no inconsistency.

ddavitt: That is a theme that ran through farnham’s Freehold and Number of the Beast; not arguing with the Captain

rjjusu: Yes, Jane. The real essence of leadership is leading, not forcing.

E1Nei1: Ron’s saying it well.

EBATNM: Also StarShip Troopers, when one could quit at any time.

ddavitt: Seemed hard for strong willed individualists to come to terms with

KultsiKN: It IS a hard lesson :-)

ddavitt: But as you say, a god leader compels obedience through being right

rjjusu: If you surrender authority to another, due to their greater knowledge, expertise, skill or vision, it is still a conscious choice, backed up by your own authority.

ddavitt: a sensible person recognises this and obeys through choice

E1Nei1: To a limit, of course.

ddavitt: as with laws…?

E1Nei1: Say, folks, I have a friend trying to get in …

DavidWrightSr: Something like what I said in my essay on Rational Anarchy, I would guess.

ddavitt: Screen name?

E1Nei1: Is there some way to help him?

rjjusu: And that gets back to my original question – how do you set the boundaries in a “rational” way?

E1Nei1: The site says it’s under construction.

ddavitt: I can invite him if we know his screen name

E1Nei1: kmurphy165

DavidWrightSr: Done

DenvToday: I prefer the “military” of TPB. Ordinary people became outraged, banded together, and contributed their resources to go off and fight.

ddavitt: OK

ddavitt: Me too; he will feel overwhelmed:-)

SAcademy: It says he’s not available.

KMurphy165 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Welcome!

DenvToday: Howdy KM.

E1Nei1: Hey, Karl!

rjjusu: Welcome to the asylum

SAcademy: Good evening.

KMurphy165: Well, better late than never, I guess. Must have donated the correct quantitiy of blood.

EBATNM: And what is the difference between “Ordinary people” and a lynch mob?

ddavitt: We are looking at the military in a libertarian state…aren’t we?

ddavitt: What boundaries do you mean Randy?

ddavitt: Legal ones?

DavidWrightSr: Denv. I think that is a nice ideal, but I don’t really believe that it would work in RL.

DenvToday: EB, the difference is that free people will not be at the mercy of any state. They will be armed.

DavidWrightSr: Not for things like invasion etc.

rjjusu: Maybe in a libertarian state, a military is an oxymoron, because everyone is responsible for their own defense, and banding together for self-defense is nothing more thatn enlightened self-interest.

E1Nei1: Boundaries: any decent society is rooted in the notion of private property rights, which includes boundary theories. As to the military discussion, the same rule holds as with individuals: you may not _iniitiate_ force.

ddavitt: An army made of individuals acting as they see fit seems like a recipe for disaster

DenvToday: David, I disagree. Remember Clinton’s little political diversion in Serbia a couple years ago? Instead of our Air Force bombing civilians, why not mercenaries?

rjjusu: Jane, my question has to do with trying to seek a balance. Most philosophical ideas founder when taken to their logical extreme. Then someone says “See, it doesn’t work!” throwing out the baby with the bath water.


DenvToday: A private enterprise would not be paid–would not retain customers–if they didn’t do a good job teaching kids. Government schools take your money at gunpoint (i.e. taxes), then deliver a third-rate service.

ddavitt: Not as freely maybe but it is possible

ddavitt: Well, my child is getting an excellent education so far; i volunteered in her class so i saw what was going on

ddavitt: maybe Canada is different though

DavidWrightSr: That’s the only way you will continue to insure that. Don’t assume at any point that they are doing a good job.

KMurphy165: Remember, coporations are creatures of the state and by design are not designed to be efficient. The megabuck corporate CEO is a statist bureacrat in different clothes.

ddavitt: I plan to go back to volunteering when lauren is a little older; very rewardeing and reassuring

ddavitt: hand on parents can do a lot to address problems in schools

ddavitt: hands on I mean’ people who want to get involved. Apathy causes most of the problems.

DenvToday: The government schools teach to the level of the slowest child in any class. The government schools spend their time teaching environmentalism, multi-culturalism, diversity, feminism and socialism. They spend precious little time on hard subjects.

KMurphy165: I have 2 children that are home schooled and 2 who is going through the public schools and 1 who has just graduated college. There are marked differences between the education received and the results are remarkably clear

rjjusu: Jane, I don’t think the issue is whether your child can get a good education in any given public school. Rather, should that be the only choice, by government edict, when there is no real accountability in the short run – the short run being defined by the time it takes to allow your child to fall behind what they are capable of, as opposed to what test they are preparing for.

ddavitt: If you hassle a governemnt ( YOUR governemnt remember) then you can make it do what you want it to. Within reason.

ddavitt: Why is it the only choice?

EBATNM: If and Only If you got the votes.

DenvToday: Jane, the government belongs to 51 people out of a hundred. The other 49 have no say.

ddavitt: Poor people don’t have the options that the rich people do. That may not be fair but it is a fact. How is that the govt’s fault?

rjjusu: But the assumption is that it is my (your) government, when it is the government of those that exert enough influence to keep it there, according to the rules that have allowed it to form or exist.

ddavitt: Ron, so many people don’t vote that could; that’s the real shame.

rjjusu: True, Jane. But why don’t they vote?

KMurphy165: “If voting could REALLY change thinge, it would be illegal”

E1Nei1: There would be no poverty in America without the government to create it.

DenvToday: Jane, I disagree. A large number of people refuse to validate the government by playing by its rules, i.e. voting.

ddavitt: If everyone who could vote did, i think there would be a change

ddavitt: Stupid…it’s the only game in town

ddavitt: Use the sytem, don’t ignore it. Head in the sand doesn’t work

KMurphy165: Casting a vote is like betting on a fixed horse race. The results are predetermined.

ddavitt: By whom?

ddavitt: I agree gerrymandering is a problem…

DenvToday: Jane, trying to bypass the gunpoint of government is not putting your head in the sand.

ddavitt: What is it then?

ddavitt: How does it help?

DenvToday: It is trying to find freedom in an unfree world. (Sorry Neil.)

ddavitt: Do you really think the govt cares?

rjjusu: I did like the idea of None of the Above being president in TPB. Many times that is the best choice of the fixed number running.

ddavitt: mybe it is my different cultural background that is creating the gulf here…I’m not being belligerent; I am really interested.

ddavitt: Before you all start throwing things at me :-)

DenvToday: rjj, the most appealing aspect of “government” in the North American Confederachy is that not one person in a thousand knew who the president was!

rjjusu: Consider presidential debates – who decides who gets to speak? In the immortal words of Reagan, “I paid for this microphone” Golden rule, ‘B’ version.

DavidWrightSr: Jane. It’s a hard concept to grasp when you are not used to it. I know that I had a hard time with it.

EBATNM: Basic rule of Life: You mostly get what you pay for.

rjjusu: Right, Andy, and that is part of what is wrong these days. When we buy things, we are not always paying the true cost, because costs have been hidden, shifted, or ignored. If we paid the real price for everything we bought, you can bet that our spending patterns would change.

DenvToday: rjj, good point. Most people don’t realize that no corporation ever paid a penny in tax–they collect taxes. They’re simply built into the price of everything we buy.

KMurphy165: Tom Clancy once said words to the effect that American Government is inherently wastefull and inefficient. Americans should be gratefull they don’t get *all* the government they pay for.

E1Nei1: Actually, Will Rogers said that.

KMurphy165: Thanks. Middle Age CRS syndrome

DenvToday: There was a news story yesterday that something like 50% of all IRS employees spend their work time surfing the web and playing computer games. I cheered!

ddavitt: Why?

rjjusu: Lets have a CRS telethon! Pick a ribbon color. That will solve our problems! Yeah, right.

EBATNM: We need to increase that number!

DenvToday: I say buy them all Nintendos!

DavidWrightSr: Actually, Denv. there could be something to that argument that *we* don’t pay taxes either, we just collect them from our employer and pass them on. No, I guess that would be true only if we could raise our salaries whenever our taxes went up :-)

ddavitt: You are paying their wages to play and that makes you happy? I don’t get that

rjjusu: If they’re playin’ we’re not pay’in

rjjusu: crudely put.

ddavitt: As an ex civil servant I have to take issue with that

DenvToday: Hmmm…David, I’ll have to think about that one.

ddavitt: If they’re not working, your tax refund will take longer to process

KMurphy165: I’m an ex civil servant and I find that 50% in my experience is surprisingly low.

ddavitt: Plus, their moral dishonesty is disturbing

rjjusu: Only if you allow them to have the “excess”, which most people do, out of fear.

ddavitt: Gosh, that sounds priggish:-)

DenvToday: It also means they’re committing fewer outrages (audits, confiscating bank accounts, real estate, etc)

SAcademy: Thunder. Have to shut down.

SAcademy has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: So long Ginny.

DenvToday: I’m so sorry. Bye SA :-)

EBATNM: Withholding was a “temporary War-Time measure”. World War II that is.

ddavitt: Are these outrages illegal? If not, then they’re something your legally elected govt lets them do

DavidWrightSr: These outrages are *legal* that is the problem.

ddavitt: And you all say i go quickly?

DenvToday: I’ll remind you that slavery was once legal. Press gangs would roam the seas “legally.”

ddavitt: And concerned voters stopped that

E1Nei1: “If not, then they’re something your legally elected govt lets them do” I never authorized them to do anything but crawl off somewhere and dies a slow, painful death, Jane.

KultsiKN: Jane, you _do_ go quickly.

ddavitt: pressure groups, lobbysists, even non voters ( women) got it changed

rjjusu: More accurately, Congress enacts laws that don’t pass semantic muster, then turn the mess over to unelected bureaucrats to interpret as they see fit. Then both can wash their hands of the resulting mess.

DenvToday: Actually no. It took bloody war to stop it.

ddavitt: I always hang on a second or two so you can start crying and begging me to stay!

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: Not in the Uk it didn’t!

EBATNM: In the US. It was peacefully outlawed in the UK

ddavitt: Quite

DavidWrightSr: Well, they had our precedent to think about, I bet. :-)

ddavitt: maybe you should all move to britain:-):-):-)

EBATNM: and the Royal Navy was instructed to intercept slave ships in the Atlantic

ddavitt: Wilberforce; that name rings a bell

E1Nei1: Do not believe that the war between the states had anything to do with slavery. It didn’t/ And more people were enslaved afterward than before.

DenvToday: Jane, it’s simply an outlook on life. I don’t believe anybody, even if it’s 51% of my neighbors, has the right to confiscate my wealth at gunpoint and control what I put in my body–privided that I’m not harming others.

DavidWrightSr: I agree, Neil.

EBATNM: How does one go “Pip-Pip” with a stiff upper lip over the Internet?

ddavitt: I studeied that war; it had a multitude of causes

DenvToday: provided

E1Nei1: Lincoln “freed the slaves” only in states he didn’t control. Meanwhile, the capital building was being rebuilt — by slaves.

ddavitt: At gunpoint? Who?

E1Nei1: Jane, you studied propaganda.

E1Nei1: Did they tell you Jeff Davis was an abolitionist?

E1Nei1: Or that northern troops seized slaves and kept them that way to work for the north?

ddavitt: Err..how can you say that Neil? You don’t know what my teachers/sources were.

E1Nei1: I know what the establishment teaches — socialist drivel.

ddavitt: My thesis was on your war with Mexico…now that was interesting

E1Nei1: Did they teach you what I asked about?

ddavitt: Jeff Davis/ Don’t recall exactly.

ddavitt: And it was in 1983…memeory not that good

E1Nei1: Did they teach you that Lincoln made 15,000 antiwar northerners _disappera_?

E1Nei1: disappear.

DenvToday: RAH mentions the Mexican-American war in Tunnel in the Sky, as an example of a war of aggression. Ours.

ddavitt: it was IMO

DavidWrightSr: I call that 1860-65 thing, The War of Yankee Aggression.

ddavitt: No Neil, I don’t remember that. remember tho; English university, no axe to grind in particular

DavidWrightSr: I’m from Georgia :-)

E1Nei1: I could take the opposite view on the Mexican War, but I’m not sure I can type fast enough.

ddavitt: i type. press enter and the discussion has whizzed on:-)

ddavitt: I sympathise

E1Nei1: It’s fun, though!

ddavitt: finest kind!

E1Nei1: I wonder how one of those voice recognizers would do in this context.

ddavitt: panic and run away

E1Nei1: Ha!


DenvToday: Jane, Lincoln declared martial law and abolished the right of habeus corpus for the duration. That meant he could put dissenters in jail for the sin of disagreeing with him. But even worse–he waged a war of starvation against the civilian population of the south. Conceived by Lincoln, carried out by Grant. Burn their farms, leave them to starve, destroy their will to fight.

KultsiKN: You notice, Neil, after a while they don’t pay any respect to you…

KMurphy165: I have come across a web site that does a chat room via voice. Use the microphone on the computer and sound card. Neet

ddavitt: We suffered in UK; our mill workers died cos no cotton came thru

E1Nei1: He brought the midnight knock on the door to America — and was an admnirer of Marx.

ddavitt: typing one fingered now; baby on knee.

E1Nei1: I don’t need no stinkin’ respect, Kultsi.

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: that is a compliment to Neil that he is one of us:-)

E1Nei1: And I thank you heartily, Jane.

KultsiKN: yes indeedy.

DavidWrightSr: Neil. what do you think about Thorby’s attitude to Lincoln?

E1Nei1: [Rockies lost. Boo. Avs won. Yay!]

ddavitt: It was really Leda in a way..she told Throby he freed slaves and that appealed to him as a former slave

E1Nei1: Citrizen of the Galaxy. Don’t recall thatpoint, though.

DenvToday: Go Avs!!

ddavitt: Or am i remembering wrong?

KultsiKN: Finland won, Yankees lost. Yay!

E1Nei1: Ha!

ddavitt: They visit the memorial at the end when Thorby is on the run

KultsiKN: Ice hockey.

DavidWrightSr: No. He told her. She said that he discovered America or something like that

E1Nei1: Well, as I said, Lincoln freed _no_ slaves. Made many new ones.

KMurphy165: Tummy growling, BRB

E1Nei1: You might want to read _Lever Action_, a piece called “The American Lenin”. Check my website.

ddavitt: Yes; said he founded amnerica LOL; more history being forgotten. Like kilroy

ddavitt: OK, have to put baby to bed. Back soon.

E1Nei1: Gotta leave for a sec. BRB.

DenvToday: rjj, we were discussing the military before. Picture this: Tens of thousands of John Browns marching on the South to abolish the outrage of slavery. They could have attacked ONLY savleowners, not the general population. Eventually, the price of owning a slave would have become too high. But millions of innocents would not have paid the price.

ddavitt: I declare 10 min break

DavidWrightSr: Time for a break anyway.

KultsiKN: Take 5? Agree with ten. Can fill up my cognac.

rjjusu: I’m not sure how you would get 10s of thousands of John Browns. More sheep than sheep dogs or wolves.


DenvToday: It is illegal to organize a “private” army. What if it wasn’t illegal?

DenvToday: What if a committed abolitionist with big bucks decided it was time to end slavery?

E1Nei1: It wasn’t illegal then. And FWIW, that’s what Brown tried to do.

E1Nei1: And please always remeber there was _plenty_ of slavery in the north, and _all_ slaver ship captains were New Englanders.

DenvToday: Very true.

rjjusu: Yes, but he underestimated the readiness of the owners to defend their privilege, and overestimated the readiness of the slaves to revolt. In war, as in life, timing is everything.

E1Nei1: The war was about _control_ and about taxes. Already the south paid 80% of the taxes in the US did you know that?

DenvToday: rjj, any war is bloody and difficult. But the horror of the Civil War far surpassed other alternatives.

DenvToday: I didn’t know that.

E1Nei1: Northern indistrialists didn’t want to pay worlkd prices for raw materials. They didn’t want to bid against England and France.

rjjusu: Not sure about the specific number, but I know that the south was on the ropes, economically.

DenvToday: Yep, that I knew.

DavidWrightSr: There was no ‘Civil War’, there was a war between two countries. The US and the CSA.

E1Nei1: So they used brute force — a tariff and then total war — instead.

E1Nei1: David’s right — except the opponents were free and equal states under the Constitution

E1Nei1: already.

DenvToday: It’s very true that most Americans are ignorant of the causes of the “Civil War.” Most would say it was about ending slavery. Which is exactly why government schools shouldn’t teach history.

E1Nei1: The telling point is that Lloyd garrison and other abolitionists wrote papers on how the war, already raging, _into_ one about slavery.

E1Nei1: Not to mention Frederick Douglass.

E1Nei1: Please insert “had to be turned” before _into_

DenvToday: There was an interesting documentary about 2 mmonths back on Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln. While stressing their personal lives, the documentary actually made the points Neil just made.

KultsiKN: We did have a civil war as well, in 1918.

E1Nei1: Tell us more.

KultsiKN: Apparently, the scars of yours did not vanish, as ours did, wheb we all fought against USSR.

KultsiKN: wheb=when

E1Nei1: We do know here about your splendid skiing fighters and excellent riflemen.

KultsiKN: In that, we were a nation united, and ever since after that.

SAcademy has entered the room.

E1Nei1: Hi, Ginny.

DavidWrightSr: WB Ginny. Storms past?

SAcademy: Back again. Storms’ headed for St. Augustine

DenvToday: wb

EBATNM: Funny thing: It was Mannheim, a Russian trained general, who led German trained troopers against the indigeous Red Army

SAcademy: Thanks.

KultsiKN: Mannerheim. Yes, he was, in two wars.

EBATNM: The first one kept Karlia, but the second lost it (as I recall).

KultsiKN: that’s right.

DavidWrightSr: One of my teachers at Monterey, a former Russian general, said that the Finns were good at diverting soviet convoys across weak ice with obvious consequences.

KultsiKN: The second time was against 50 divisions with 5.

EBATNM: The Finns were good at the Winter War, but they lacked heavy weapons and airplanes. The Soviet’s were able to resupply via air.

SAcademy: And we were palsy with the Soviets, to the detriment of Finland.

DavidWrightSr: He also said that the soviets had a lot of trouble with discipline. They would take votes on whether or not to attack and usually voted no.

KultsiKN: Bad thinking before the war: lacking in _everything_ … except willingness to defend,

DenvToday: If I were a Soviet private, that would have been my vote!

EBATNM: You often have problems with discipline when you’re starving to death

DavidWrightSr: Nah. They just weren’t willing to put the state above their individual choices :-)

KultsiKN: So rite, David.

EBATNM: Wasn’t there a nasty little war with the Nazi’s when Finland opted-out of their alliance?

SAcademy: I was about to say what Kultsi said.

KultsiKN: Yup. Real nasty.

EBATNM: Several thousand Finnish soldiers were surrounded and murdered.

KultsiKN: ??

E1Nei1: “They just weren’t willing to put the state above their individual choices” — sounds like a fine formula to me.

EBATNM: As I recall, one battalion was on detached duty. They didn’t get the word in time to get out of harm’s way. So …

SAcademy: Reminds me of a story I heard in Finnland: one soldier to the other one, “I’ll go out and surround them while you finish your cigarette.”

DavidWrightSr: I imagine that quite a few Russians have had to learn how to be free in an unfree world.

ddavitt: OK I’m back. Neil, got out my course notes; one essay I wrote was”The Civil war was an irrepressible conflict’. Discuss. Some of the references were F Thistlethwaite, A Craven, A Nevins..mostly authors from the 1950’s 1960’s. I got quite a good grade on it:-)


ddavitt: But I see we’ve moved on a few decades…

DenvToday: I’m still laughing. lol

E1Nei1: I always marvelled at the way the Finns managed to stay independent while living on the Soviet doorstep.

KultsiKN: Bend.

E1Nei1: Fight.

EBATNM: The Soviets, while winning the war, really didn’t want to go another round.

RaShaKaela has entered the room.

KultsiKN: That’s right.

DenvToday: Hi RaSha

ddavitt: Welcome!

EBATNM: They lost a lot of troops for territory they really couldn’t use except as a buffer for Leningrad *er* St. Petersburg

RaShaKaela: Hi. Let me change my color and font. :-)

DavidWrightSr: Please :-)

KultsiKN: Not _that_ Ra Sha!

DenvToday: When did the Soviets ever mind losing a lot of troops?

DavidWrightSr: Probably when they needed them for bigger things.

EBATNM: They had just lost 50 million people in the “Great Patriotic War” (WW 2).

KultsiKN: Never. Peasants? Nyechivo!

DenvToday: It’s still hard to digest those numbers.

RaShaKaela: Okay, who’s KultsiKN to ask which RaSha? ;-)

SAcademy: It simply isn’t true.

EBATNM: World War 2 was won on the Eastern Front. The Soviets would have won with, or without, the rest of the Allies.

KultsiKN: I’m ME! And that’s why.

RaShaKaela: :-P

SAcademy: Nonsense.

SAcademy: WWII was won by us invading Europe.

KultsiKN: Agree, Ginny.

DavidWrightSr: Stalin certainly pushed for us to open the second front.

SAcademy: Thanks Kultsi

RaShaKaela: The Nazis would have pretty much rolled over the Soviets if Germany hadn’t been fighting a two-front war

ddavitt: And by Hitler fighting on two fronts and weakening his attack

ddavitt: Could you go to bold please RaSha? Sorry to nag:-)

RaShaKaela: Thought I was…. [puzzled]

rjjusu: Yep, two fronts made all the difference – good or bad – for all parties.

EBATNM: During the invasion the Nazi’s transfered troops from France (SS Panzer Division) to the East to hold-off the Soviet Winter Offensive.

RaShaKaela: better?

ddavitt: Smashing super!

DavidWrightSr: Si, Da Oui Ja

KultsiKN: Much.

SAcademy: A lot better, Thanks.

ddavitt: As we Brits say

RaShaKaela: heh

SAcademy: Oh, let’s not fight it all again. I’m tired of it for one.

DenvToday: Jane, sorry if I was overbearing before. I don’t usually get on my soapbox.

ddavitt: But we know who won SA; that takes the sting out.

ddavitt: Ron; never noticed; sorry if I seemed agressive too

DenvToday: Not at all.

ddavitt: I’m not thin skinned on usenet

SAcademy: Don’t worry, Jane. I was aggressive too.

ddavitt: Too easy to take offence where none was intended

rjjusu: Let’s all link arms and sing Kumbaya! Not.

ddavitt: Never Ginny!

DenvToday: lol rjj.

E1Nei1: Ha!

ddavitt: We are all enjoying a lively discussion in a good spirit.

E1Nei1: There you go.

ddavitt: And as long as I’m the host it’ll stay that way :-)

DenvToday: Absolutely!

EBATNM: No offense meant, none taken

ddavitt: Sheesh..lets get back to the fight…err discussion

KultsiKN: Yea, this cognac is _wonderful_

SAcademy: I think that I’m the only one who remembers it who is here now.

ddavitt: Dave; were you alive then?

SAcademy: To all the rest of you it’s just history.

DavidWrightSr: Being a linguist, I’ve often thought that we need to develop a better written language that can carry all of the nuances of speech. Something smileys do, but on a far more comprehensive scale. However, by the time we get around to it, if ever, we’ll all be talking face-to face. :-)

EBATNM: I don’t remember it, but I studied it for my degree before leaving University in a disgust

ddavitt: Or am I mixing you up with another poster?

E1Nei1: Personal history to some — my dad was a POW in Germany and taught me a lot.

ddavitt: But discussing it keeps it from being forgotten SA

DavidWrightSr: I was just 4. I don’t remember much.

DenvToday: David…face to face? Without computers or phones? People actually do that?

DavidWrightSr: I mean with computers. :-)

KultsiKN: I’m pretty good with _this_ language, Dave.

DenvToday: Ah….I see!

RaShaKaela: I was VN era. My Dad was in during Korean War, but not in theater

EBATNM: I had relitives on both sides

ddavitt: My parents were born in 1940 but they can remember the aftermath; rationing and conscription. my dad had to do a stint in the RAF

SAcademy: I was a Navy Lt. during WWII

DenvToday: Neil, my father was born in Germany, decided it wasn’t a good thing to become a bar of soap, and made his way to the U.S. He was with U.S. Intelligence at the age of 18. I grew up on his stories.

E1Nei1: Your dad was smart!

E1Nei1: I’m trying to talk British friends into coming here for the same reason.

DenvToday: Yes!

DavidWrightSr: Jane, your parents and I were born the same year. Just had my 61st birthday.

RaShaKaela: I met a woman yesterday who had relatives get caught in Poland.

ddavitt: Were you at the place where you met Mr Heinlein the whole war SA?

ddavitt: We’re all 21 on the net Dave…

DenvToday: SA, I’ve read about your service in W.W. II. Not too many details. I guess RAH didn’t want to discuss some things.

SAcademy: Yes. Phhiladelphia.

EBATNM: ddavitt: Age or IQ?

SAcademy: Oh, I flew a desk/

KultsiKN: Was it, like, at first sight?

ddavitt: We know a lot about your husband’s life Ginny; have you ever felt tempted to write about your own history?

ddavitt: Both sometimes Andy!

SAcademy: He said to me, “Lieutenant, your slip is showing.”

EBATNM: And as we know “Loose slips sink ships:

DenvToday: lol

RaShaKaela: :-D

ddavitt: Did you really wear a headband when you shouldn’t?

ddavitt: As it said in tramp Royale?

SAcademy: Yes,

SAcademy: I wasn’t reg.

ddavitt: I like that!:-)

RaShaKaela: Was that the era when red lipstick was part of the women’s uniform?

SAcademy: I’m still not.

EBATNM has left the room.

SAcademy: Well, that was the Marines.

DenvToday: I recommended Tramp Royale to a friend just yesterday. She’s thinking about cruising the Med. I told her to take passage on a freighter and read Tramp Royale.

ddavitt: We should have you as a guest Ginny; I bet you have some wonderful stories.

SAcademy: You know, that title has always bothered me. It should be Tramp Royal. No “E”

RaShaKaela: Second that motion!

ddavitt: We discussed that once; what is the poem’s title? The Kipling one?

ddavitt: I have it but I can’t recall off hand

SAcademy: Kipling’s title is: Tramp Royal.

ddavitt: So that should be the book title too; who changed it? And why?

E1Nei1: “Do you like Kipling?” “I don’t know — I’ve never Kipled.”

RaShaKaela: heh

SAcademy: I tried to get the “E’s” removed when I got the galleys, and they said”Impossible.”

E1Nei1: Sorry.

ddavitt: Classic comment…

DenvToday: Somebody had to say that. It’s the law. :-)

ddavitt: How odd!

ddavitt: So someone else put them in?

RaShaKaela: But have you ever Kipled Fish? ;-)

E1Nei1: Del Rey once cut 40 pages from a book of mine, then said it was too late to change it — although I could always buy the book back.

EBATNM has entered the room.

E1Nei1: Do kipled fish have a special parking area?

E1Nei1: Sorry again.

EBATNM: Sorry, my ISP is flaky today. It’s in Roswell which explains ….. something

DenvToday: rofl Actually, that one was very good!

RaShaKaela: Yes, usually a cassette or CD player.

SAcademy: On a reprint, Robert Silverberg left out the end of The Year of the Jackpot. (last third) and blamed it on Barbara.

E1Nei1: Geez.

ddavitt: That would be so frustrating to an author

ddavitt: I read a Nevada Barr mystery

ddavitt: In the hardback, a character is a 50 year old man

SAcademy: It was supposed to be fixed for the paperback, but it wasn’t.

ddavitt: in the pb a 30 year old woman

RaShaKaela: yeesh

ddavitt: Someone in rl had that name and made a fuss so it got changed. Ridiculous

KultsiKN: Like me?

DenvToday: Jane, it makes perfect sense–the paperback is smaller.

ddavitt: :-)

DavidWrightSr: afk for a few minutes.

ddavitt: OK

SAcademy: Do you smile like that, Jane?

KultsiKN: No, better.

E1Nei1: How do you get one of those smileys with all the teeth?

ddavitt: I don’t smile in mirrors so i don’t know….I’m a happy person i think

RaShaKaela: ctrl-shift-8

ddavitt: click on the smiley on the bar across your page

KultsiKN: Like this :-D

RaShaKaela: :-D

E1Nei1: :-D

DenvToday: :-*

ddavitt: :-):-*8-)O:-):-D:-P:-[

KultsiKN: Roight.

SAcademy: :-D

RaShaKaela: By Jove, I think he’s got it! ;-)

ddavitt: LOTS of them…for every occasion

E1Nei1: Hilarious!

SAcademy: I think he has.

DenvToday: 8-) Reminds me of Bob Ringer.

E1Nei1: Haven’t heard that name in a while.

ddavitt: OK, we are drifting…anyone got any serious questions ? Or are we winding down with all that cognac floating around?

RaShaKaela: ?

DenvToday: He has a new book out, actually.

KultsiKN: Any movie star w. shades.

E1Nei1: I could alwaysplug _Lever Action_ again.

KultsiKN: Aw, Jane, t’was low.

KMurphy165: If it’s not inappropriate, I would second the motion to ask Mrs. Heinlein to write her story?

KultsiKN: Karl, second ya!

DenvToday: I have a question: Neil, you’ve created such a detailed universe–the North American Confederacy. Is it difficult to live here and now? We suffer so much by comparison.

SAcademy: Oh, no you don’t!!!

RaShaKaela: Third it! :-D

DenvToday: Fourth!

DenvToday: Can you fourth a motion? Doesn’t matter.

E1Nei1: Ron — sometimes it’s very difficult — although _Pallas_ is more reachable and I hink about it more.

E1Nei1: think

RaShaKaela: Someone should fifth it so we can all get refills (or firsts) of cognac. ;-)

DenvToday: You want to create a Ngu world, eh?

ddavitt: We know virtually nothing about you Ginny; but you were a vital part of it all. But we aren’t trying to pressure you. We are interested, not inquisitive.

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: I can’t believe I made it!

ddavitt: It’s great that you share any details with us.

ddavitt: About time too Bill

SAcademy: I don’t either.

Heinleinsmof: You should have been through the effort from my end!

ddavitt: We are discussing alcohol just for a change

KultsiKN: Gremlins, Bill?

SAcademy: You didn’t mark the shortcut?

RaShaKaela: brb

ddavitt: Glad you made it. lots of gremlins for several people and on thursday too

EBATNM: see?

Heinleinsmof: In a manner of speaking

Heinleinsmof: Yes, I see, Andy — sorry to be precipitate.

SAcademy: Well, speak more clearly then

ddavitt: Any question for Neil Bill?

ddavitt: comma missing there

ddavitt: We have covered some interesting areas in the two chats.

Heinleinsmof: I don’t know if you are on a break right now, but I would appreciate a review so I don’t ask about any material already covered.

ddavitt: Err…we are almost at the end of over 5 hours chat; that’s a lot to summarise!

Heinleinsmof: For Neil’s benefit, I am a regular with the group here, but I am in Santa Cruz right now and have had to have a phone line specially installed in my hotel in order to be here. The installation was just completed

ddavitt: Why don’t you ask and we’ll tell you if it’s been discussed or look at it again?

EBATNM: It was an interesting chat. With overtones of spices and orange. A nice mellow chat, suitable for guest or slowly sipping by the fire.

Heinleinsmof: I’m about to finish reading Forge of the Elders — some very nice aliens in there; lots of Heinlein references, too.

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: Thank you for all that effort Bill; but it will come in handy for the rest of your stay i assume?

ddavitt: Hi AG

Heinleinsmof: Of course — not completely “alien” though.

SAcademy: Hello, David.

AGplusone: Hello, Neil, Connie says “Hello” and hi everyone.

Heinleinsmof: Yes, Jane. Exactly. I am going to be here until June 8, so it will repay the expense.

RaShaKaela: Neil, you ran for president on the Libertarian ticket, didn’t you?

E1Nei1: Okay, where to strart answering …

ddavitt: You’ve lost your bold again RaSha..

SAcademy: Welcome to Santa Cruz. think you can stand it for that long?

E1Nei1: Thannks for the nice words about _Forge_ it was a labor of love.

Heinleinsmof: Actually SC is very nice once you get out of the blighted area.

E1Nei1: And yes I ran for Pres and may again.

RaShaKaela: Mainly I was wondering if you started writing science fiction before or after you entered politics.

Heinleinsmof: Was it published as 3 books originally, Neil — or was that just for convenience in writing? I haven’t seen any of the titles

SAcademy: Yo don’t mean the University do you?

Heinleinsmof: Oh, for LNS science fiction IS politics…

E1Nei1: smof is right.

Heinleinsmof: Not the university — the area from the 1 and 17 splitting to the ocean is pretty grim, but the rest seems to be a nice California coastal town.

ddavitt: Yes; I was intrigued by the idea that libertariansim grew out of SF; not many genres can claim that distinction

RaShaKaela: Really?

E1Nei1: I wanted to be another HG Wells, and _not_ an Edward Bellamy. But instead of socialism, my view was libertarian.

Heinleinsmof: Sorry to be carrying on two conversations simultaneously. Where did you get that idea, Jane?

ddavitt: Research when Bill Willimas was trying to educate me

Heinleinsmof: What we today call libertarianism has been an underground tradition in the U.S. since Josiah Warren at least.

EBATNM: Because she hasn’t read “Men Against the State”?

ddavitt: Not the historical libertarian ideas of course..

Heinleinsmof: That’s dating from — what, the 1840’s and the Fourierists?

ddavitt: The recent US developement

RaShaKaela: What roots of libertarianism are peculiar to SF ?

ddavitt: The SF Encyclopedia may have mentioned it; but you don’t like that book IIRC

E1Nei1: Heinlein, Rand, Russell

Heinleinsmof: But modern libertarian ideology traces itself directly to people like Benjamin Tucker and Albert J. Nock.

E1Nei1: Poil Anderson, too.

ddavitt: Exactly Neil

DenvToday: Jane, libertarianism grew out of the Age of Reason. Samuel Adams and George Mason would have called themselves libertarians. But I think the correct term is “classical liberal.”

E1Nei1: Poul

E1Nei1: Except that liberal got tainted

Heinleinsmof: Well — sf took up libertarianism after Russell and Heinlein paved the way.

E1Nei1: Yes. But don’t exclude Rand — Shrugged and Anthem are SF

Heinleinsmof: Classical liberalism is not completely compatible with libertarianism.

EBATNM: Some people in SF. I wouldn’t call Harrison, Asimov, or Ellison libertarians

RaShaKaela: Doesn’t Milton Friedman still proudly claim the label of “classic liberal?”

E1Nei1: They’re all socialists.

DenvToday: Eric Frank Russell, who was British, was one of the early ones.

E1Nei1: I think Uncle Miltie’s calling himself a libertarian these days.

Heinleinsmof: Jefferson is kind of the classic “classical liberal,” and he was decidedly not a libertarian.

E1Nei1: Right, smof.

EBATNM: Depends on whether he was in or out of power

Heinleinsmof: A libertarian couldn’t justify either the embargo or the Louisiana Purchase the way it was done.

Heinleinsmof: Or slaveholding.

DenvToday: To be honest, Samuel Adams would be busy drinking beer these days. (Groan…sorry)

RaShaKaela: ‘Classic liberalism’ is directly descended from Locke, isn’t it?

ddavitt: John Stuart Mill too

Heinleinsmof: I was always more impressed with John Adams.

E1Nei1: Jefferson, as governor, wanted to bore a half-inch hole sideways through the noses of adulterous women. Wiser heads prevailed.

EBATNM: The British Empiricists

ddavitt: “On Liberty”

RaShaKaela: Drat. Mill is the one I always forget.

E1Nei1: American libertarianism began with those Scottish guys who wrote under the name Cato.

E1Nei1: As in “Cato’s Letters”. Locke is a bum steer.

Heinleinsmof: Today we call a classical liberal a “conservative — you know, not one of the religious right ones…”

ddavitt: He thought govt should only stop an action if it would harm someone else; not the person acting. So he would dispprove of drug laws I assume

RaShaKaela: Neat. A source I haven’t read. :-)

EBATNM: And don’t forget William Godwin

Heinleinsmof: And Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin

ddavitt: Labels, names…..peel ‘em off and stick on new ones as the climate changes

DenvToday: Or Archie Goodwin, for that matter.

E1Nei1: Wish I could remember their names — but look up Cato’s Letters in your browser.

AGplusone: So where do we put Burke?

RaShaKaela: Okay. Thanks

E1Nei1: Godwin was a socialist? Hw come his name arises here?

E1Nei1: Make t a !

Heinleinsmof: Co-founder of the natural law tradition therefore a predecessor of classical liberal, I guess.

DenvToday: John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon

ddavitt: Burke was a conservative IIRC

E1Nei1: YayYYY!!

DenvToday: That was just off the top of my head, of course. (Ahem….)

AGplusone: maybe …

E1Nei1: Burke was a fellow-traveller.

AGplusone: He certainly was reacting to something

Heinleinsmof: Wasn’t Locke Burke’s secretary or somesuch?

ddavitt: Conservatism emerged in 1789..Burke wrote Reflections on the Rev in France in 1790

E1Nei1: Dunno.

EBATNM: Locke was a professor in Edinburogh

EBATNM: Edinburogh?

E1Nei1: And exiled, at one time.

RaShaKaela: Where does Paine go in this field?

ddavitt: He was anti violent revolution as a way of changing things

Heinleinsmof: I had the impression that Locke:Burke :: Comte:St.-Simon

E1Nei1: Paine was a student of Cato’s Letters — another Scot, of course.

ddavitt: But most of his work pre dated conservatism which is a tricky problem…

Heinleinsmof: The language is always tricky because the terms meant something very different in the 18th century.

EBATNM: Was Burke a Tory or a Whig? I canna remember

ddavitt: Yes; labels again

DenvToday: Interestingly, one of the most freedom-loving films of recent years was Braveheart. Coincidence? lol

RaShaKaela: heh

AGplusone: … and one of the least historically accurate …

E1Nei1: I think all this use of “conservatism” is incorrect. In the 18th century, a conservative would have been a monarchist. What we’re trying to say here is “republican”.

DenvToday: David, very true. Seeing the movie made me read up on Wallace. Whoa, did the movie take liberties! But I still loved it.

E1Nei1: In its 18th century meaning.

ddavitt: An anti revolutionsist certainly

Heinleinsmof: In the European tradition (up until about 1930 when it came to the US) Conservative = monarchist and liberal = Marxist

ddavitt: Still sort of valid today in the UK Bill

EBATNM: Where do the Social Democrats fit into that paradighm?

E1Nei1: My daughter takes issue with the Braveheart thingy, saying a better movie of this kind was The Patriot.

Heinleinsmof: Social Democrats are Marxists.

ddavitt: Who cares? Jokes

Heinleinsmof: heretical marxists, I guess

ddavitt: Not in the UK

DenvToday: Tell your daughter it’s on HBO in about 15 minutes. My VCR is primed and ready.

EBATNM: I’m not sure either would accept that.

EBATNM: Lenin thought the S.D.’s where traitors.

E1Nei1: Thanks, Ron. We’re about to buy the DVD.

EBATNM: darn it “were”

Heinleinsmof: If you take Marxism but remove the revolutionary concept, and make it evolutionary and progressive rather than revolutionary, you get Social Democrats — it’s still class-conflict socialism.

RaShaKaela: I always think it funny when modern liberals label people who support republican forms of government as ‘Nazis.’ They forget that was the National Socialist Workers Party.

EBATNM: Ahh, I see

E1Nei1: I make few distinctions among those who wish to appropriate my life. Hang ‘em all.

ddavitt: Sory; I am being crypitic. In the UK we have a party called the SDP; Social Democrats

E1Nei1: With a dirty rope.

ddavitt: They aren’t the same as those SD’s.

rjjusu: But good libertarians would band together and donate a clean rope. ;-)

Heinleinsmof: It’s the damage done to our terminology by the Popular Front appropriating anti-Naziism to Communism.

EBATNM: and different from Labour (note correct spellink)

AGplusone: so they’ll die of blood poisoning if not of a broken neck or strangling, eh …

DenvToday: RaSha, so very true. Nazis were national socialists, the communists international socialists. No essential difference.

ddavitt: But equally bad reputations IMO

E1Nei1: My next nonfiction book will be called _There’s No Such Thing as a Liberal_ — they’re socialists just like all the rest.

DenvToday: That observation usually drives my leftist friends to drooling rages. But they can’t refute it.

AGplusone: And what are the SD’s in Germany today.

AGplusone: ?

Heinleinsmof: Heinlein called them Black Fascists versus Red Fascists

RaShaKaela: Except that the ‘communists’ were the Nazis’ biggest bogie man when they were trying to get into power.

DavidWrightSr: That was a case of two ‘leaders’ fighting each other for top spot.

DenvToday: RaSha, the Mensheviks hated the Bolsheviks too.

E1Nei1: Socialists always fight among themselves.

rjjusu: The man in the mirror is always the scariest.

AGplusone: How would you access the Expanionist Party as portrayed in Double Star, Neil?

RaShaKaela: Neil, if you look at the methods the modern liberals use, they appear to have been lifted straight out of “Mein Kampf”

AGplusone: …. sionist

E1Nei1: I have many of the same values, AG. That’s one reason I ran last time.

E1Nei1: You’re right, RaSha.

RaShaKaela: Emotional appeals, denigration of intellect and achievement, scapegoating…… Scary.

ddavitt: were they the Bonforte party AG?

AGplusone: I noted the method of selecting representatives, by occupation, as well, as geographical, in that particular form of representative government ….

ddavitt: Or the enemy?

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Bonforte

DenvToday: RaSha, if you take out the anti-Semitism in Mein Kamf, you’re left with a socialist economic program that would be applauded by the Democrats and the Labour Party.

E1Nei1: John Joseph Bonforte is another favorite RAH character of mine.

ddavitt: Prof suggested that too

RaShaKaela: Which is why I have for years been saying that ‘liberals’ are in fact fascists.

AGplusone: Except possibly the “national defense” aspect of it, RaSha

E1Nei1: On the whole, of course, I’d rather not be represented — or taxed.

ddavitt: Mkes as much sense as any

Heinleinsmof: I think some of the democratic free cities in Medieval Russia used that method of representation.

E1Nei1: Right again, RaSha!!

AGplusone: Many city councils during the middle ages consisted solely of guild representatives

RaShaKaela: AG, as far as I can tell, the national defense aspect is something they decry because they expect to maneuver everything into a One-World-Government under the UN.

AGplusone: except, of course, the cathedral representatives … who were, of course, the shaman guild

Heinleinsmof: Often that was the only way the local nobleman would charter a city.

DenvToday: David, would that be Hanseatics across the Sea?

AGplusone: urk, urk ….

ddavitt: So you would disapprove of our British system of Social Security? It is flawed and showing its age but it has given health care and old age pensions to many people who would literally have died without it.

AGplusone: uh, aye, aye, I meant

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: Can a poor person reasonably be expected to be a libertarian?

DenvToday: Jane, you’re assuming that without social security, there would be nothing to replace it.

ddavitt: Isn’t it a luxury option?

EBATNM: At the time, there wasn’t

E1Nei1: “Can a poor person reasonably be expected to be a libertarian?”

Heinleinsmof: And you don’t see a connection with the current state of Britain’s economic health compared to its pre-Social Security days?

AGplusone: preparing carefully for follow-up … oh, yeah, compasionate (whatever you’d call ‘em … here’s a hug, now go see if the church is distributing alms today.

ddavitt: If the governemnt didn’t provide, they couldn’t afford it themselves. They need that cradle to grave support

KMurphy165: Ms. Davitt. By many scales, I am poor and yet, I’m a libertarian.

E1Nei1: Once again — government _creates_ poverty. In an indistrial society, tyhat’s the only way it happens.

ddavitt: Please, call me Jane.

AGplusone: government? what about simple strong man rule?

ddavitt: We didn’t lose the Empire because Lloyd George started OAP’s

RaShaKaela: brb

DenvToday: Jane, didn’t Blair propose–just the other day–to let citizens invest part of their social security in the private sector?

AGplusone: If that’s a government …

ddavitt: I’m not up on current stuff; let it slide since emigrating :-(

DenvToday: He did.

AGplusone: doesn’t matter whether he did or not …

DenvToday: Even socialists can recognize economic reality. They won’t follow it often, but they’ll recognize it.

KMurphy165: I think a poor person should be more motivated to be a libertarian than a rich person

ddavitt: we all know the pyramid is making the pension unworkable now

ddavitt: why?

Heinleinsmof: We knew the pyramid would make the pension unworkable in 1933.

ddavitt: part of why i said it was showing its age. But it still has its strengths

Heinleinsmof: That is, we knew in 1933.

Heinleinsmof: It’s “strengths” are vampiric.

AGplusone: so is all forms of insurance

ddavitt: all children in the UK get free eye tests and free dentistry

ddavitt: That’s cost effective in the long run

Heinleinsmof: No — insurance is a bet.

KMurphy165: “Democracy” or what ever you cal collectivist state, works in large part on influence. Thus the poor persone, without the means of purchasing influence has little way to protect his interest. Thus, libertarianism is the only known system to grant the best chance of being misused by the State.

AGplusone: vampiric bet …

DenvToday: KM, you’re absolutely right. I became a libertarian when I was a kid right out of college, not two cents to my name. Many years later, I do have two cents. (Oh wait..that doesn’t make my point…)

AGplusone: because the insurance company takes its cut

AGplusone: the bookie’s house percentage

E1Nei1: Details, details. The truts, we’d all have 8 times as much real wealth if the government dried up and blew away. It’s a drag brake on prosperity and progress, a parasite on our species, a disease masquerading as its own cure. Ut takes half of what you earn and “gives back” a pittance — like rotten healthcare.

E1Nei1: that’s “truth”

E1Nei1: And “It”

AGplusone: “all”?

E1Nei1: All

Heinleinsmof: Yes — it costs roughly 5 times (I worked it out once) as much to have a government provide a service as to have a private entity perform the same service.

Heinleinsmof: Huge nonproductive overhead to support — it’s a dragline.

AGplusone: what about the lame, halt and unlucky? Note I didn’t say a damned thing about the lazy or stupid

ddavitt: But someone still has to pay; who?

DenvToday: The government has often been compared to the Mafia, but that’s unfair. The Mafia gives value for money.

E1Nei1: In a free society, AG, the pie is constantly expanding.

E1Nei1: Pay forat, Jan?

E1Nei1: Pay for what, Jane?

RaShaKaela: As for insurance, I have seen medical costs go from what a below-poverty-level family could afford, to something that is almost inaccessible without some form of insurance. Tell me insurance is a good thing.

ddavitt: 5 times cheaper; but there is still a cost. Who pays?

AGplusone: Not if you’ve ever dealt with the mafia, Ron … and my family had to once upon a time … all robber barons give is robbery

E1Nei1: Insurance is another kind of government.

Heinleinsmof: Well — in part medical costs have ballooned because of the corrupt government-insurance combination.

E1Nei1: Right.

AGplusone: isn’t that the nature of a corporate form of business enterprise?

E1Nei1: Yes.

RaShaKaela: And where do the litigious parts of society — both the lawsuit happy people and the lawyers who feed off them — get their foundation?

AGplusone: regardless of whether there’s a ‘government’ influence?

Heinleinsmof: NO!

DenvToday: David, you’re right. I was being flip, but the Mafia and the government are in the same business. IMHO

AGplusone: beyond allowing corporations

Heinleinsmof: The general nature of a corporate business enterprise is a combination to spread risk

ddavitt: I agree that governemnt tree needs pruning; I agree that there are laws about things which are people’s own business…but I can’t go as far down that road as you all want to. I think it is too drastic and ignores the fallibility of most people and their basic apathy

Heinleinsmof: You don’t have to spon

Heinleinsmof: sor coercive monopolies.

E1Nei1: Sorry, Jane, that’s he we got into this mess.

AGplusone: the general nature of a corporate business enterprise is to allow risk with limited, very strickly limited, liability, in other words, a circumstance inherently adaptable to fraud

E1Nei1: We are free or we are not.

AGplusone: strictly

DenvToday: Neil, I was wrong. The Patriot starts at 7:00 PM on HBO.

EBATNM: Corporations are a way for the shareholders to shield themselves from the consequences of their actions.

ddavitt: But that is your choice; it;s how you view yourself.

Heinleinsmof: That is the practice within the current set-up; it’s not an inherent feature of the corporate modality.

AGplusone: Exactly … shield …

AGplusone: Not since the Union Pacific case …

AGplusone: And you see the end of the line in Friday

EBATNM: Exactly!

Heinleinsmof: I agree; current practices are hopelessly corrupt.

AGplusone: totally ungovernable entities … a libertarianism for non-humans

ddavitt: world wide? Or are you just talking about the USA?

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think the current set-up would survive in a libertarian framework — libertarians require strict accountability.

ddavitt: That’s another stumbling block…you all tend to see what is happeneing in US as universal and it isn’t. Different countries do it differently.

AGplusone: okay, if they do of themselves … except who watches their self-guardian?

rjjusu: Most corporations today are transnational entities who are concerned mainly for their own survival.

E1Nei1: Folks, I’m gonna hafta bow out, I’m afraid. I have a dinner appointment. But I’ve enjoyed this enormously, and I thank you all very much for a great couple of evenings.

RaShaKaela: Bye, Neal. Nice meeting you.

rjjusu: Please come again!

AGplusone: Come back when we have Connie, or anytime!!!!

Heinleinsmof: I did want to ask a question about your business, JNS

E1Nei1: I will.

ddavitt: Neil, on behalf of the group, it has been a privilege to have you as our guest

ddavitt: Thank you for giving up your time

DenvToday: Guys, I hope you don’t think that libertarianism means an absence of infrastructure. Some of it would simply be transferred to private hands–and subject to competition. Who gives you better service? The post office or FedEx?

ddavitt: I hope, like Joel, you will come back again in the future

EBATNM: Ta-Ta Neil.

AGplusone: Notice you didn’t mention UPS, Ron …

RaShaKaela: heh

E1Nei1: You’re all very welcome. Ask your question, smof.

DenvToday: Neil, thanks so much for being with us!

Heinleinsmof: Thank yu — any plans to get the Prob

Heinleinsmof: iliyt Broach series back in print?

Heinleinsmof: Probability Broach, I meant.

EBATNM: If you see Sam, Schulmann, or Koman tell ‘em Andy said “Hi”

E1Nei1: Well, there’s a new edition of _Broach_ coming in December. And one always has hopes. Gotta go now, though. Bye.

ddavitt: Goodnight!

DenvToday: Bye Neil!

AGplusone: that’s good news …

AGplusone: bye, and thank you

Heinleinsmof: Thanks.

ddavitt: well, I will have to go too in a minute

E1Nei1 has left the room.

AGplusone: Basic note: Connie Willis has agreed to come … I’ll work out details with Jane, Oz and Dave Wright

EBATNM: Jane, most Americans have absolutely no idea of the British Class system & can’t understand it. Don’t want to understand it.

DenvToday: Again, sorry for my soapbox. I’ve done more preaching in the last few hours than in the last three years! lol

ddavitt: Can people think about a summer break and the possibility of moving the Sat chats to a different time?

Heinleinsmof: CAn’t believe it, more like

rjjusu: Oh Jane, please don’t go! boo-hoo…..

ddavitt: Grat; I ahve read several of her books and enjoyed them

AGplusone: what would you suggest for time, Jane ….?

ddavitt: That’s better; grief, wailing and gnashing of teeth…

DenvToday: David, excellent. She’s a wonderful writer.

KMurphy165: I should like to come back again. I’ve dropped a shortcut on the desk top. But the URL i was given doesn’t seem to work. Advice would be appreciated for reconnecting.

ddavitt: Well, it’s a difficult time for me but I don’t want the European people to be left with no way of particiapating

RaShaKaela: I have to leave, too. Gotta make supper for the kids. [waves to all]

ddavitt: As they would if we dropped it all together

AGplusone: an earlier hour …

AGplusone: or two?

ddavitt: Night RaSha!

RaShaKaela has left the room.

ddavitt: Any time when the kids are awake is hard.

Heinleinsmof: Middle of Saturday is inherently inconvenient. Chores day.

ddavitt: Either it becomes hosted by a European…hint hint

rjjusu: Week nights seem to be better – could we start somewhat earlier?

ddavitt: and US people join if they can..

AGplusone: KM … fill out your buddy list with ddavitt, DavidWrightSr and me, as well as Major oz and others. Then use IM to communicate and ask for an invitation if they’re on line

Heinleinsmof: I think that is a very good idea — hosting by a European.

DenvToday: That would be fine with me.

AGplusone: as a back up … the link should work usually

ddavitt: We need to get more people from that side of the pond

Heinleinsmof: How would Sunday evening work for Europeans and Australia?

DenvToday: By the way Jane, don’t think most Americans think as I do (Or Neil, for that matter). Most people I know consider me a fringe nut. lol

Heinleinsmof: I think that would put it on early Monday a.m. for the Brits, wouldn’t it? So Francesco would be adversely affected, too

EBATNM: What time Sunday?

ddavitt: Australia is difficult as that would make it early Monday for Sean I think

rjjusu: No, Ron, I think you are a very mainstream nut….. :-)

DenvToday: lol rjj. rofl I like that!

ddavitt: I don’t think that; just a very different background to me

AGplusone: okay for Australia, except church goers I suppose, but way too late for Europe …

ddavitt: Not wrong; just different

Heinleinsmof: I regretfully conclude Saturdays mid-day PST are the most convenient for the out-of-US people.

AGplusone: Saturday morning for us might help Europe …

ddavitt: But does Sean join in much now? :-(

AGplusone: I think if he’s awake …

Heinleinsmof: Thiis suggests to me a European host might be the best thing to pursue as a stopgap.

ddavitt: maybe we have to just set a time and not attempt to please all people

Heinleinsmof: Or rotate among the active participants. Maybe we need a “shadow” management group for out of North America.

AGplusone: Why don’t we talk to Jani and Kultsi … “”””waving to


rjjusu: I think you should focus on our guests, and let us true believers join in when we can.

ddavitt: But at the moment we have two reasonable times for the US and none for Europe; this is 3.00 am for you isn’t it Kultsi/

ddavitt: That’s not fair…

AGplusone: I can survive watching football and typing at the same time … earlier

AGplusone: if you can stand play-by-plays re UCLA vs. Whomever ….

Heinleinsmof: How about Jane, David Wright, Oz, and I add AGP+1, SEan, Francesco, and Kultsi to our management group and talk about the prob

Heinleinsmof: lem?

ddavitt: I need another host for saturdays, especially in the summer; too much outside stuff going on, barbecues, going to the park, swimming and such

ddavitt: Sure.

rjjusu: If we are trying to get someone to join our group, especially for the first time, or a guest author, we need to consider their needs, since we are asking the authors to give of themselves.

ddavitt: AG; didn’t we break in the summer last year?

AGplusone: need someone from England

AGplusone: No.

Heinleinsmof: I don’t foresee any way of settling this right at the moment, so let’s add Jani as well and “reconvenen” by e-mail as we have been doing.

AGplusone: Been through break-don’t break … break kills momentum

ddavitt: Jani hasn’t been on the chats for a while either :-(

rjjusu: She’s been very …. busy.

ddavitt: OK; good idea as I do have to go

ddavitt: could discuss on afh?

Heinleinsmof: OK — Jane would you send out an email to the entire group setting out our “problem” and asking for inputs, particularly from the irregulars.

AGplusone: possibly subject matter a bit .. I have to go too. Wife will be waiting me in 15 minutes. Why don’t you set up a time for a chat, jane.

DavidWrightSr: Do we have a topic for next time?

ddavitt: Not yet..

AGplusone: KM, did you catch that suggestion?

ddavitt: Lots to discuss

ddavitt: No time will suit everyone tho

ddavitt: But I can draft an email to group

AGplusone: Suggest you schedule topic “Heinlein” and “Humor” generally … I’ll host. Read HSSWT and Stranger for it

ddavitt: How about next thursday at usual chat time?

Heinleinsmof: OK — I was about to suggest first topic should be next subject — this sounds good.

ddavitt: Ok that sounds nice and vague

Heinleinsmof: “Lost Legacy” — remarks by Master Ling.

KMurphy165: Yes, I did. AG. Thanks a lot. I’ve been lurking while furiously building the new buddy list and catching up.

AGplusone: yeah, with malice aforethought ….

ddavitt: So you can do a lead off post AG?

AGplusone: Fine with me … let me know if you all decide. Yes, I can

ddavitt: So, can we meet on Thursday at 9.00 EST?

AGplusone: I Have to go.

ddavitt: Any problems?

ddavitt: Bye AG; thanks!

rjjusu: Go for it.

Heinleinsmof: OK — You are on for next topic, guaranteed. So you an do your lead-off at any time.

AGplusone: please mail to Jani, etc ….

ddavitt: OK, I so move, night all, see you Thursday

AGplusone: Okay, see ya all. bye

AGplusone has left the room.

DenvToday: Byeee everybody! Thanks for the wonderful discussion.

ddavitt has left the room.

DenvToday has left the room.

Heinleinsmof: Good chat, it seemed to me. Sorry I’ve been out of touch for the last several days.

EBATNM: Are we still recording?

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 8:13 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday May 10,2001 9:00 P.M. EDT Guest Author: L.Neil Smith

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday May 10,2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Guest Author: L.Neil Smith

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
From: ddavitt (ddavitt@netcom.ca)

Subject: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-04 19:24:02 PST

Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn Rand.


Neil is the author of many books, ranging from his first, ‘The Probability Broach’ which features a detective who ends up in a parallel universe where the Whisky Rebellion ( discussed here on afh recently) was resolved somewhat differently, resulting in an anarchist USA, to some Star Wars tie ins. He is a long time member of the Libertarian Party and a lifetime member of the NRA. The homepage mentions that in his books Neil predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, digital watches and the Internet which is pretty good going.

Neil has some strong views on subjects familiar to a Heinlein reader and I expect the chat to be lively and informative. I hope to see some new faces as well as the always welcome familiar ones and remember that all instructions on how to participate are on Dave Wright’s page


From: David M. Silver (agplusone@loop.com)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 02:31:18 PST

ddavitt wrote:

>Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our

>chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author

>whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn



>Neil is the author of many books, ranging from his first, ‘The

>Probability Broach’ which features a detective who ends up in a

>parallel universe where the Whisky Rebellion ( discussed here on afh

>recently) was resolved somewhat differently, resulting in an

>anarchist USA, to some Star Wars tie ins. He is a long time member

>of the Libertarian Party and a lifetime member of the NRA.

>The homepage mentions that in his books Neil predicted the fall of

>the Soviet Union, digital watches and the Internet which is pretty

>good going.

>Neil has some strong views on subjects familiar to a Heinlein reader

>and I expect the chat to be lively and informative.

>I hope to see some new faces as well as the always welcome familiar

>ones and remember that all instructions on how to participate are on

>Dave Wright’s page



Thanks for the pointer to one of L. Neil Smith’s homepages, Jane. I’ve never read any of Neil’s writings before, so I’ve had trouble finding copies of any of his earlier works, including _The Probability Broach_ which I particularly wanted to read. However, I’m making do with three recent ones: _Pallas_, _Brenda Martyn_, a sequel to an earlier story, and a third one (something about “Elders”) I cannot seem to find in the clutter of my ‘book-to-read’ pile right now, but no doubt will stumble over the next time I head for a cup of tea.

I followed up the homepage URL you’ve noted by clicking around here and there and found a second homepage, which contained collected essays written by Neil.

One such, http://keithlynch.net/lns/rhr is very important to us. Its title is “Robert Heinlein Remembered,” and contains Neil’s recollection of his introduction to Heinlein the author and his acknowledged influence on himself as writer and adult. It’s worth reading; and if I had Smith’s permission I’d quote it in its entirety here.

I’ll try to comment on my impressions of Pallas as soon as I finish it, and soon follow up with the others. I’d appreciate reading the comments of others who have read earlier works.

From: ddavitt (ddavitt@netcom.ca)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 04:25:34 PST

Bill Patterson is unable to post so I am forwarding this email as he requested


It’s very unfortunate that L.Neil Smith’s books haven’t been easily available to us to prepare for the upcoming author chat. Smith’s website [URL] indicates Smith has 21 books, of which only two, Bretta Martin and Forge of the Elders, are on the shelves in bookstores now.

Smith’s reputation was founded on the Probability Broach series starting in the 1970’s. Although these books are now difficult to find, they hold up very well to re-reading. Because it deals with travel between not-quite-parallel timelines, the series tends to blur a little at the edges; some of the later novels are only loosely attached to the main conflict of the principal books of the series, though mention of critical figures does include them. It’s a little like the situation we find in Heinlein’s World as Myth books. (I have to talk about these books from memory because I’ve only been able to find two or three of them in the last couple of years to replace my main copies, which are packed away.

The main line of the series is contained in The Probability Broach and The Venus Belt. Briefly there is a timeline that diverged from ours at about the time of the Whiskey Rebellion. Albert Gallatin, Washington’s Secretary of something or other in this alternate timeline came out strongly for the individual rights of the whiskey makers and sided with the Rebels. As a result the U.S. never got a strong federal history. Over the course of the next two centuries, the US government became less and less important, economic issues of laissez faire capitalism taking center stage (there is a misconception you need to get rid of in order to understand what Smith is saying here: the U.S. was never a capitalist or market economy. As the 19th century wound down it was dominated by monopoly capitalism, which is functionally the same kind of thing as the economies of Italy from 1922 to 1945 and Germany from 1932 to 1945.) In our universe, the aristocratic power-elite notions of Alexander Hamilton prevailed (the economic end of what Heinlein portrays in “Lost Legacy” as the position of the “Young Men”). The alternate universe are Gallatinists and the enemies of human freedom are “Hamiltonians.”

Smith shows the alternate universe as expanding in terms of economy and technology — together with some completely different developments (the great apes, chimpanzees, and dolphins are on the same level of articulateness and intelligence as are H. sap.) . By comparison our universe is in a familiar downward spiral into depression economic and technological. Communication between this universe and the alternate is opened by accident and a disillusioned gumshoe from our universe, Win Bear, gets a taste of freedom and moves over to make war on the Hamiltonians. In The Venus Belt, he tracks down a Hamiltonian conspiracy led by their equivalent of Walter Cronkite. That’s the way it is.

As the series grew, Smith began incorporating some ideas about nanotechnology, introduced by Eric Drexler’s Engines of Creation and ran smack into the problem that has confronted all science fiction since then that tries to deal with what Vernor Vinge has dubbed “The Technological Singularity”: within the next ten to twenty years, the rate of technological change is expected to increase so dramatically that people living on the other side of this upward bend in the curve will be incomprehensible to us. Smith introduces smartsuit fabrics — a skintight suit that is essentially a giant nanotech computer with fantastic abilities to adapt and protect — and by the time of Rorqual Maru, which is effectively the last book in the series, the characters — though recognizably acting logically, can hardly be identified with as human beings any more. The amount of energy power and computing power available to human beings makes them god-like.

The series developed fuzzy edges by incorporating what looks like other timelines. In The Nagasaki Vector, we have a regimented future somewhat like Larry Niven’s water-empire State or the Svetz stories, in which probability broach technology is invented by someone who was a lab assistant to the inventors in the libertarian-Gallatinist future. Here an exploratory flying saucer lands on a world where the Freenies, borderline-sentient beings that look like German WWII helmets, are kicked into full sentience by feasting on our waste coffee grounds and elect the captain of the vessel as their god. They participate in an interuniversal revolutionary coup. In Their Majesties’ Bucketeers, trilateral-symmetry aliens of a desert planet with a technology about at the level of Europe in the 17th or 18th century rediscover the methodology of Sherlock Holmes. It’s an immense amount of fun and one of my favorite among Smith’s books.

From: David Wright (maikosht@alltel.net)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 04:53:01 PST

“ddavitt”wrote in message


>Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our

>chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author

>whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn

One small nitpick. The next meetings are Thursday May 10 and Saturday May 12.

I have read three of Neil’s books, The Probability Broach, The Gallatin Divergence and Henry Martyn.

TPB and TGD take place in an alternate history. There are obviously books that come between these two, but I haven’t yet found them. One character, Lucy Kropotkin, reminds me a lot of Hazel from The Rolling Stones and NOTB.

TPB and TGD, especially, TPB, I would say, are the most Heinleinesque in style. However, don’t ask me to define what ‘Heinleinesque style’ is. I have been trying to figure that out for almost 50 years now. Both of these books use first person narration. Neil, like Heinlein, seems to be willing to let the reader use his imagination rather than filling in every detail. He uses new words and terms without explicit definition and lets their definition come through from their context, much the way a child learns language.

Henry Martyn is much darker than anything Heinlein ever wrote, and although I enjoyed it, I found it difficult to get through because of the overwhelming ‘evil’ that is the driving force of so much of the plot action.

David Wright

Archives of previous discussions and instructions on how to attend these meetings are found at http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

From: David Wright (maikosht@alltel.net)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 04:58:45 PST

“David Wright”wrote in message




>I have read three of Neil’s books, The Probability Broach, The Gallatin

>Divergence and Henry Martyn.


Correction. Make that 4. I also read ‘Brightsuit MacBear’, a novel set in a much later time period in the same series as TPB and TGD. Very reminiscent of some of Heinlein’s coming of age works.

>David Wright


>Archives of previous discussions and instructions on how to attend these

>meetings are found at http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html



From: Arian (ladyarianrose@yahoo.com)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 07:24:03 PST

One question …[1]

I’ve never had the opportunity to get to one of these discussions before, and I’m wondering:

It is in two parts, yes? Is the second a *continuation* of the first? What times are they being held (as in, time of day).[2] Please be kind. ;)

“I aspire to be more than I am.”

“A wolf can act but like a wolf.”

Go figure! — Blessings, Arian

[1]Okay, so it was two questions

[2]Zulu is fine, I can convert. :)
Are these dates correct, 11th and 13th? They are a Friday and a Sunday. Are we switching days, or should this be the 10th and 12th?

aka “geeairmoe2″ on Heinlein Chat on Instant Messenger

. 8-11 pm Central Thursdays, 4-7 pm Central Saturdays

Expanded Horizons Distributors

“Cyber Fund Raising For the 21st Century”


ddavitt wrote in message…

>Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our

>chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author

>whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn



>Neil is the author of many books, ranging from his first, ‘The

>Probability Broach’ which features a detective who ends up in a

>parallel universe where the Whisky Rebellion ( discussed here on afh

>recently) was resolved somewhat differently, resulting in an

>anarchist USA, to some Star Wars tie ins. He is a long time member

>of the Libertarian Party and a lifetime member of the NRA.

>The homepage mentions that in his books Neil predicted the fall of

>the Soviet Union, digital watches and the Internet which is pretty

>good going.

>Neil has some strong views on subjects familiar to a Heinlein reader

>and I expect the chat to be lively and informative.

>I hope to see some new faces as well as the always welcome familiar

>ones and remember that all instructions on how to participate are on

>Dave Wright’s page



Lady Arian Rose asked:

>One question …[1]


>I’ve never had the opportunity to get to one of these discussions before,

>and I’m wondering:


>It is in two parts, yes? Is the second a *continuation* of the first?

Yes. Yes.

>What times are they being held (as in, time of day).[2]

>Please be kind. ;)

Thursday is held from 9 PM to midnight, New York City time (US EDT).

Saturday is held from 5 PM to 8 PM, NYC time (US EDT).

I’ll let someone else convert that to Zulu or Greenwich for you, because I always get it wrong.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone) wrote:

>I’ll let someone else convert that to Zulu or Greenwich for you, because I

>always get it wrong.

You doggies spent too much time sitting in one place for long

stretches. The more mobile US forces [e.g., USMC, USN] quickly

learned quick time conversions.

Thanks to the tireless efforts of David Wright you can read logs of past chats at:


Will in Texas

aka “geeairmoe2″ on Heinlein Chat on Instant Messenger.

8-11 pm Central Thursdays, 4-7 pm Central Saturdays

Expanded Horizons Distributors

“Cyber Fund Raising For the 21st Century”


Arian wrote in message…

>One question …[1]


>I’ve never had the opportunity to get to one of these discussions before,

>and I’m wondering:


>It is in two parts, yes? Is the second a *continuation* of the first?

>What times are they being held (as in, time of day).[2]

>Please be kind. ;)


>”I aspire to be more than I am.”

>”A wolf can act but like a wolf.”

>Go figure! — Blessings, Arian


>[1]Okay, so it was two questions

>[2]Zulu is fine, I can convert. :)

I wrote:

>I’ll try to comment on my impressions of Pallas as soon as I finish it,

>and soon follow up with the others. I’d appreciate reading the comments

>of others who have read earlier works.

Notes: L. Neil Smith’s novel Pallas1993 (Tor)

This novel won the “Prometheus Award,” given for best science-fiction novel annually by a Libertarian organization.

A South Africa capitalist and his contractors, under a loophole in UN charter governing space, terraforms an asteroid, Pallas. It is the only viable off-earth colony, Luna being virtually an abandoned effort, under UN administration, too-cold Mars having defeated other efforts to establish colonies. He designed it to be colonized by volunteers who pay their own transportation costs for the very expensive privilege, but once there are free to ‘root hog or die, in the words of the North American 16th to 19th century frontier–something which Smith goes to great pains to emulate in this novel. The terraforming has stocked the asteroid as a terran wilderness, with large herbivores, antelope, pigs, deer, etc., and the accompanying forests and prairies, rendering it suitable to an agrarian society. Many workers from the construction crews employed by the South African remain, entering into a minimalist compact drawn up by a libertarian philosopher, who also, it later appears, became a colonist along with her anthropologist husband. The UN however has a toe-hold on the asteroid, an enfenced enclave known as “The Greeley Project,” which it stocks with ‘volunteers’ from among the disposed on earth who are essentially enslaved by articles of indenture which they are required to execute as a condition of emigration binding themselves and their progeny in perpetuity to serve The Greeley Project, an agricultural “cooperative,” reminiscent of both the pre-Confederacy U.S. South, and the collective farms of the pre-1990s U.S.S.R. An appointed failed ‘liberal’ politician, Gibson Altman governs, essentially a dictator, The Greeley Project which is heavily subsidized by UN, which also provides Altman with a staff of armed Education & Morale counselors (“goons”) who are essentially slave overseers.

Emerson Ngu, son of SE Asian “boat people” 20th century immigrants to the failed democracy that was the United States, is a teenaged volunteer to The Greeley Project, bound by his parents, who also labor for it, his father in the fields and his mother as the housemaid of Altman himself. He is rebellious, imaginative, and resourceful, having created a ‘cat’s whisker’ radio receiver by which he in his concealed free time listens to the equivalent of a ‘radio free Pallas.’ After, and not for the first time, for his rebelliousness being punished, he escapes and finds himself outside the “rim fence” surrounding The Greeley Project, where at the first habitation he encounters the same sort of helpful reception Marjorie Baldwin and her companions found at the end of Robert Heinlein’s Friday, but with one significant emphasized area: everyone here, man, woman, and child, bears and uses arms–not an unsurprisingly emphasis considering the author’s well-known 2nd Amendment hobby-horse.

Mrs. Singh, the widow at whose home he lands, first feeds, then sings the glories of individualism, and then presents to the teenage boy with a firearm left behind when her own husband died. Her teenage daughter Gretchen initiates him in the mysteries of its use, as well as certain other mysteries perhaps more important to teenaged boys.

But this isn’t a “boy-meets-girl” plot variant except in a slight sense. Emerson, at the time he escapes the communism of the agricultural collective, is the proverbial blank slate. His teachers will range from unnamed slaves from whom he learned rumors sufficient for building his own radio, before he left the Project, to the widow Singh, to “Cherry,” the proverbial madam, a rather young one in fact, with the unlikely heart of gold (she invests her gold in Emerson’s business enterprises, as they develop and shower upon her lavish results, later), to one “Judge” Brody (a tip of the hat to MiaHM), and finally to two fascinating characters, an elderly married couple living about as far from civilization as they can get, the legendary anthropologist R. L. “Digger” Drake-Tealy, and his wife, the equally legendary political philosopher, Mirelle Stein. Imagine the elder Leaky crossed with Raymond Dart, and I think you have Drake-Tealy; and then marry him to Ayn Rand, and I think then you have this couple, including the source of most of the wisdom they chisel onto Emerson. Author Smith, as least in this novel, likes to pay tribute to his icons; and he obviously plays games naming his characters. “Emerson” indeed!

So in a sense, I suppose, this is a “man who learns a lesson,” several lessons are force-fed him and us, kind of plot.

Typical of the lessons, aside from the obviously predictable one about owning and maintaining expertise in the use of firearms (it might scare most of you if I ever disclosed my true beliefs concerning firearms, because despite my so-called liberal bent, my mind runs along the lines of having hypothetical access to a hypothetical M-60 machine gun buried in a hypothetical mountain or desert nearby that I hypothetically smuggled home piece-by-piece from a hypothetical AO in SE Asia a hypothetical 30-some years ago–some folk of my ancestry have this “Never Again!” fixation), is the following: Smith’s ideal society, outside the “rim fence” isn’t agricultural even the extent of post-1860s Homestead Act in the United States. Land is free for the taking, but the “sodbusters” never arrive. People hunt meat; have kitchen gardens, and harvest natural fruits of the forest and field–mushrooms, for example. The only ‘industrial’ farming, as such, is the Greeley Project plantation. The teaching here is that the prehistoric hunter-gatherers were healthier and happier and freer, of course.

That gets me to the bone I have to pick with Smith, the author. I don’t mind his libertarian line: I consider some underlaying premises naïve; but I consider the notion that “rights” exist independent of government naïve as well; and persons of all political stripes adhere to that naiveté equally strongly, so I don’t mind whether anyone agrees with my qualifications on Libertarianism one way or another.

What bothers me about the novel is this: Robert Heinlein once wrote he believed there were two sorts, basically, of science fiction: gadget and character development stories–he wrote mostly character development because he found them most agreeable and salable. There is, however, he conceded a third category, in a sense, and he said this of it:

“Much so-called science fiction is not about human beings and their problems, consisting instead of a fictionized framework, peopled by cardboard figures, on which is hung an essay about the Glorious Future of Technology. With due respect to Mr. Bellamy, “Looking Backward” is a perfect example of the fictionized essay. I’ve done it myself: “Solution Unsatisfactory” is a fictionized essay, written as such. Knowing that it would have to compete with real story, I used every device I could think of, some of them hardly admissible, to make it look like a story.”

All right: it doesn’t “bother” me–it annoys me. Smith’s writing in at least this novel is a fictionalized essay about the Glorious Future of Political Science; and, to that extent, is reminiscent of Ayn Rand, the prototype for his character Mirelle Stein; and she just as Emerson and the rest is made of cardboard, or perhaps in her case, of stone–to accept the little wordplay on her name. I didn’t like Ayn Rand’s fiction because I couldn’t identify with those cardboard figures–I really didn’t care whether John Galt lived, died, or simply went away and stopped bothering me, after a few chapters. And I really don’t want to tell you Who I concluded he was: wouldn’t want the censors from Utah to move in and shut us down because of me.

That’s the problem with this ‘novel.’ It’s not–instead it’s a series of interrelated essays–and Smith is a good essayist, but it’s not my meat. I only wish he’d thought of more devices, even “some of them hardly admissible, to make it look like a story.”

I hope he’s done better with the Martyn and Elders stories that I haven’t read yet; and, since I didn’t know I’d be hosting tonight, I’ll do my darnest to make some headway with them before we greet our guest in two-and-one-half hours.

See you all tonight!

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
I was visitor 94943 to his site, and it infected me with no desire to read his work.


Tian Harter


Last night I met a guy that said he was going

to use the force of Gravity as a power source.

>I was visitor 94943 to his [ L. Neil Smith ] site, and it infected me

>with no desire to read his work.




>Tian Harter

…….golly…..what a surprise. A Green did not want to read about a Libertarian.



Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DenvToday: I sent him an invitation–twice. He said he didn’t get it.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Folks.

ddavitt: Hi Dave

DenvToday: Anybody have any suggestions?

DavidWrightSr: What’s the problem. No Neil?

AGplusone: Okay, hardball time… tell him to click on the chat button on his list … then remove whatever it puts up, and type “HeinleinReadersGroupchat” into the address, and type his own name “E1Nei1″ into the invited names

ddavitt: I am showing him on my buddy list now

DenvToday: Neil said the hourglass isn’t going away as long as it’s on the chat screen.

AGplusone: Tell him to reboot

ddavitt: Still 10 minutes to go;plenty of time

AGplusone: Somebody send Mrs. H an invitation, please. I can’t get this damned thing to do it from my end.

ddavitt: Will do

ddavitt: Won’t let me send to Ginny

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DenvToday: He’s rebooting.

ddavitt: Hi Will

AGplusone: I’m having her reboot too

geeairmoe2: Hello, All.

ddavitt: Gremlins out tonight

AGplusone: Hi, Will, having problems getting our guests and others into the room

AGplusone: glad you made it!

AGplusone: One less to drag into room …

ddavitt: Your post on afh looks funny AG…more gremlins?

DavidWrightSr: I got gremlins too. My wife opened an e-mail attachment last night that infected my system with a virus. I am process of cleaning it out now.

AGplusone: Good Lord!

AGplusone: The funny symbols for quotes, Jane?

DavidWrightSr: Yep. It’s running rampant all over our church mailing lists.

ddavitt: Yes AG. What’s the name of the virus?

ddavitt: Funny symbols cropping up all over it…

AGplusone: Idiosyncrasy of MS Word 2001 crossed by BBedit I think

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Ah well..it’s still readable

DavidWrightSr: Win32.Badtrans.21882

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

DenvToday: Good evening

DavidWrightSr: or some variation on the number.

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia … we’re fighting to get Neil and Mrs. H into the room

fgherman: Hello all

AGplusone: Ginny has rebooted, somebody try sending an invitation to her again, please.

AGplusone: I think ….

geeairmoe2: Her door just closed.

fgherman: I have to reboot also

fgherman: brb

AGplusone: Okay, watch for her please …. brb fer sure

ddavitt: I will send to Ginny

AGplusone: How we doin’ with Neil, Denv?

ddavitt: Says she’s not available

DenvToday: I’m not sure.

DenvToday: I’ll try to see.

fgherman has left the room.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: He just signed back on … hi, Ginny!

SAcademy: Hello. Tpook quite a while this time.

E1Nei1 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Lots of us having problems tonight

DenvToday: Victoire!

ddavitt: Welcome Neil

AGplusone: We’re still fishing for … speak of the Devil, himself!!!

AGplusone: Welcome!

DenvToday: Good evening SA.

SAcademy: Good evening all.

ddavitt: Did you get the invitation Neil? Or did you make it on your own?

E1Nei1: Hi all! Rebooting did the trick. Sorry I didn’t reply to ddavitt — eveerybody’s a faster typist than I am

ddavitt: No problem! And don’t worry about typos :-)

AGplusone: That’s all right, what you miss in accuracy you can make up for in typos as I do

E1Nei1: You’re very kind.

AGplusone: :-D

AGplusone: and can’t jump very high either

SAcademy: Lovely smiley

E1Nei1: Never saw that one before!

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Neil

E1Nei1: Thank you.

ddavitt: There’s a huge range now

AGplusone: Okay, here we all be …

AGplusone: at last!

ddavitt: Yes; do you want to host AG?

AGplusone: I think you’ve got a range from some how haven’t ever read you here, to some who have read one or two … and Jane can host if she wishes ….

ddavitt: For old times sake?

AGplusone: how=who?

ddavitt: OK, if you will spell me as needed.

AGplusone: For auld lang sign ….

DavidWrightSr: I can make some comments, If I may

AGplusone: absolutely

AGplusone: GA, David

ddavitt: Sure!

ddavitt: OK, let’s start then

ddavitt: Neil, the usual proceedure is for us to take it in turns asking questions

DavidWrightSr: I just re-read The Probability Broach and I was really struck this time by similarities to Lunie Society in TMIAH, except that the Loonies didn’t have guns and [did have] Authority to bleed them. Also Lucy reminded me a great deal of Hazel

DavidWrightSr: There is also mention of a a Heinlein City.

ddavitt: Then we can move to a more informal chat later on. Whatever suits.

E1Nei1: Well it’s no secret that I’ve been more heavily influenced by RAH than any other writer or thinker. I also had an Admiral Heinlein in _TPB_ if you’ll recall.

DavidWrightSr: I missed that one.

AGplusone: ?

E1Nei1: He won at the battle of the Bering Straits against the Czarist Navy

DavidWrightSr: Also, I have to ask. what comes between TPB and TGD?

DavidWrightSr: I haven’t found those yet

AGplusone: How fast did they snatch up the reprints of that book [TPB] when it came out with Brenda Martyn?

E1Nei1: You mean in order of writing or on the timeline?

DavidWrightSr: Timeline

fgherman has entered the room.

E1Nei1: It’s _Bretta Martyn_ and the answer is, I don’t know, most of them never tell me anything.

ddavitt: AG was that your question or do you have another?

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia … meet Neil … sorry, had a girlfriend named Brenda Martin, believe it or not, and fingers have a mind of their own …

fgherman: Hello Neil

ddavitt: ?

E1Nei1: I type too slowly to reassemble my timeline now. Hello, fgherman.

fgherman: It’s Felicia, Joel Rosenberg’s wife

AGplusone: I read Pallas, because I expected it to be similiar to Moon is a Harsh Mistress … what it intended to be a revisit theme?

AGplusone: With Judge Brody, etc., …

E1Nei1: No, not a revisit. It’s meant to be a truly accessible utopia, unlike the one through the broach everybody’s always hollering at me about. (^_^)

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I meant just the book title(s)

E1Nei1: Judge Broday was a wave at TMIAHM

DenvToday: ?

E1Nei1: I have some question marks here I don’t understand.

AGplusone: In a way it was accessible, moreso than “Moon” even … yes, that wave was nice … given they find an asteroid of that composition.

ddavitt: Soory Neil; that’s people indicating they want to join the queue

AGplusone: to ask questions …

ddavitt: I am up next with a question, then Denv

geeairmoe2: Like raising their hand.

E1Nei1: Okay. FWIW, 70% of the asteroids are of that composition.

AGplusone: are they … good news

ddavitt: Or we can just chat without that; which do you prefer?

E1Nei1: Just remember I type slowly.

ddavitt: Will do

AGplusone: /ga

AGplusone: which means I’m done ….

ddavitt: OK; Neil, as a non libertarian, I often wonder just what part of Moon is A Harsh Mistress is so appealing to libertarians?

ddavitt: Pre revolution or after it?

E1Nei1: Good question …

E1Nei1: I wrote _TPB_ and _Pallas_ in part because they both have more libertarian societies than TMIAHM ended up with. For me, the idea is that _nobody_ has a right to give another human being an order and expect it to be followed or else.

E1Nei1: The fight against authority is the main appeal of TMIAHM, I think.

E1Nei1: ge

E1Nei1: that’s /ga

ddavitt: The post rev society quickly became a mirror to contemporary US is seems to me

AGplusone: in Moon

E1Nei1: Yeah. Hence TPB and Pallas and the rest.

E1Nei1: /ga AG

ddavitt: Ok, thanks ga Denv

DenvToday: Neil, Pallas has several sly parodies of modern-day celebrities such as Shirley MacLaine and Ted Koppel. Mirelle Stein is meant to be a Ayn Rand-like character. But I was wondering–who, if anybody, was Drake-Tealy modeled after?

E1Nei1: Drake-Tealy’s a composite of Raymond Dart, Louis Leaky, and a couple others. Leaky’s a real hero of mine.

AGplusone: [my guess was right!]

E1Nei1: I also like Robert Ardrey and … Desmond Morris

E1Nei1: /ga

DenvToday: I know them all, but not well. I’ll do some reading up on them. Thanks.

AGplusone: remember reading them all about the same time, Killer Apes and all.

ddavitt: Neil, how hard was it writing the Star Wars books?

ddavitt: I mean, was it constricting as you had to work within a pre existing framework?

E1Nei1: Ha! Ha! It was a royal pain in the _tochis_! Very short time, lots of editorial interference, poor payment of royalties.

ddavitt: I’m amazed at the big names who do them and the Star Trek ones

E1Nei1: Also some very silly rules. /ga

joelrmpls has entered the room.

ddavitt: Barabara Hambly, laurell Hamilton for instance

AGplusone: Evenin’ Joel

ddavitt: Hi Joel

joelrmpls: Evening, all.

DenvToday: Howdy Joel!

E1Nei1: Hello, Joel.

ddavitt: Joel is living proof that guest authors live to tell the tale :-)

AGplusone: ?

E1Nei1: Ha!

ddavitt: ga AG

AGplusone: How hard did you find ‘telling the tale’ in Pallas balancing it against what you wanted to write about various philosophies of yours?

AGplusone: For example: I found it hard to follow the “tale” but enjoyed the essay-like interludes …

AGplusone: the episodic nature of the plot … skipping years … was a little distracting.

E1Nei1: Not hard at all. as I write _extremely_ detailed outlines (synopses) which I bash around until I like them. Also, if you balance your characters right, the story will generally tell itself. Or worse, the characters won’t let you do what you planned — in the end, for example, Ian Islay refused to rape Loreanna. Trying to make him do it upset my stomach.

E1Nei1: Episodic — well. if I’d coverd all those years in detail it woulda been a much longer book, right?

AGplusone: Islay in one of the Martyn stories … ? Absolutely a much longer book for Pallas

E1Nei1: Right. And it’s Arran Isaly — see, even I forget my own characters sometimes.

E1Nei1: Islay.

joelrmpls: Like the malt scotch.

AGplusone: made it harder for me to connect with the character Emerson … one day he’s fourteen, next he’s 55 or somethin’

E1Nei1: All the placenames and many family names in thoase two books are for Scottish islands. I want to write a third when I can.

ddavitt: Islay is a Hebridean island; any connection there?

E1Nei1: one day he’s fourteen, next he’s 55 or somethin’

ddavitt: Sorry! I’ve been to Islay; most of them actually. lovely place.

E1Nei1: Just like real life. I’m 55 on Saturday, and 14 seems like yesterday!

AGplusone: LOL … still 17 myself

ddavitt: I was 37 on monday…,sigh>

DenvToday: Happy Birthday!

ddavitt: :-)

DavidWrightSr: I was 61 last friday!

DenvToday: I was 22 just last week. In 1975.

SAcademy: Many happy returns

E1Nei1: Islay is an island near enough to Scotland to count. Of course it’s also where they make an excellent single malt

ddavitt: Gosh; all these natal celebrations!

fgherman: Happy birthday to all you May babies

E1Nei1: Laphroigh

joelrmpls: Gesundheit.

E1Nei1: That’s the whiskey. Thanks for the birthday wishes.

ddavitt: It’s the Inner Hebrides, off the West Coast. I’m Englsih Neil, now living in Canada

ddavitt: Seaweed and iodibe

ddavitt: Iodine

E1Nei1: Where in Canada. I have friends in the west.

ddavitt: Toronto is the closest big city

joelrmpls: “Seaweed and dead bodies” is always how I’ve heard it.

DenvToday: Neil, you had about a billion Oplytes (did I spell that correctly) headed toward the Moon in Bretta Martyn. I’m still chewing my nails in suspence.

fgherman: Too much seaweed & dead bodies in Islay

ddavitt: Close enough Joel…my husband collects single malts

DenvToday: suspense even

ddavitt: We are wandering to alcohol; happens a lot Neil :-)

AGplusone: They must use the seaweed and dead bodies to flavor the scotch, right?

E1Nei1: I’m in Fort Collins, Colorado. Grew up in St. John’s newfoundland and Ft. Walton beach Florida. I badly miss the sea.

fgherman: I feel the same way in Minneapolis


ddavitt: Tell me about it! I get claustrohobic in ontario sometimes

Featherz Dad has left the room.

ddavitt: Bombay Sapphire rules

E1Nei1: Oplyte — see next book, either _Lia Wheeler_ or _Phoebus Krumm_

AGplusone: absolutely…

DenvToday: I live in Denver, but I grew up in Cleveland. I badly miss the garbage on Lake Erie.

E1Nei1: Ha!

E1Nei1: I’m headed for Columbus later this month.

E1Nei1: Marcon

AGplusone: Born in Cleveland … how are the alewives?

DenvToday: I vote for Krumm. I respect any man who can keep 2 wives happy!

fgherman: Joel did that last year

joelrmpls: Fun convention. I was GoH last year.

E1Nei1: So I hear, Joel. I’m going for the Prometheus celebration. Should be fun. I don’t do many cons.

AGplusone: Going to Phil?

joelrmpls: I can’t. Work and all.

E1Nei1: Is that the WorldCon or something? Sorry, I don’t follow these things.

AGplusone: Yes, over Labor Day

AGplusone: … we’re fighting with them over having an RAH memorial blood drive.

E1Nei1: Labor Day I hope to be working — between books now. I feel like a bum.

ddavitt: Neil, setting aside Moon, what other Heinlein books appeal to libertarians? And why?

AGplusone: They want everyone to have a ‘good experience” which to them doesn’t include being asked to contribute blood

E1Nei1: It’s his whole attitude toward life …

E1Nei1: I started with the gutted version of _Red Planet_ when I was in 6th grade. Also _Tunnel in the Sky_ and _Starman Jones_.

ddavitt: He wrote about a lot of people to whom self determination was paramount

E1Nei1: It’s hard to point to any one thing until you get to his later work, partly because they censored him.

ddavitt: Tunnel they set up a government as a priority; is that libertarian? I would have thought not?

E1Nei1: You’re right, Jane. And self-reliance.

AGplusone: making your own way freely on a frontier seems particularly appealling

E1Nei1: Indeed it does.

AGplusone: The Jeffersonian idea

AGplusone: with a new ‘revolution’ every generation

AGplusone: and a new compact

ddavitt: It appeals in the abstract…maybe we’re too pampered now

E1Nei1: Gives me a real Paine!

ddavitt: groan!


E1Nei1: Thank you, thank you …

E1Nei1: /ga

ddavitt: If we did colonise a new planet, we would still take along a lot of luxuries

AGplusone: like oxygen …

DenvToday: Jefferson said the best form of government was a benevolent dictatorship, tempered by the occasional assassination. RAH obviously thought the same in TEFL.

SAcademy: Like computers?

E1Nei1: Sure. I made that point in _Pallas_. High-tech pioneers.

ddavitt: probably SA

ddavitt: Yes, exactly

ddavitt: And why not?

joelrmpls has left the room.

E1Nei1: TEFL? SA?

DenvToday: Time Enough for Love.

ddavitt: Sorry; time Enough For Love

AGplusone: I liked the terraforming approach … logistically if would have been something on an unusual scale … how many acres would Pallas contain?

ddavitt: We use acronyms a lot to speed it up.

geeairmoe2: The acronymns take some getting used to.

E1Nei1: The terraforming would be huge, but doing it from orbit’s an advantage. And of course it’s in the future

ddavitt: Always helps

AGplusone: And I also loved those room fan bicycles …

E1Nei1: I won’t go into it now, but I’m on the board of advisors of a group that wants to go to Mars soon.

fgherman: Seems like terraforming would be a kind of difficult one-man operation

ddavitt: Are we bypassing the Moon then?

E1Nei1: True. That’s why we have a free market and volunteerism.

AGplusone: As was done one farm at a time by one family at a time in Farmer in the Sky

DenvToday: What do you want to bet that when you get there, the IRS will try to tax it.

ddavitt: I know we went there but we didn’t really do much; what advantages does Mars have to outweigh the extra distance involved?

E1Nei1: Yes! Bybass that stupid rock!.

ddavitt: It may have ice….

E1Nei1: Personally, I want to colonize the asteroids, but the mars group and I are fellow travellers.


E1Nei1: It may have ice — asteroids have 6-22% water, plus keropgen — oil.

ddavitt: Are any big enough for settlements of reasonable size?

ddavitt: Or is it one asteroid per person?

ddavitt: Ceres is how big?

DenvToday: Neil, will Mister Thoggosh be there to greet you?

AGplusone: Would moving a Pallas would be a bit easier than terraforming it in place?

ddavitt: ( Jane realising she knows little about her own solar system)

fgherman has left the room.

E1Nei1: Pallas is the size of the Four Corners states plus half of Wyoming. Ceres is the size of India. I hope Mr. Thoggosh has a beer waiting for me. I prefer Fat Tire.

ddavitt: Hmm…didn’t know that…..Ok.

E1Nei1: Moving Pallas won’t help — needs plastic to retain an atmosphere.

AGplusone: A little bigger than EM-3 that Libby moves, both of them?

E1Nei1: Gess so.

E1Nei1: Guess.

AGplusone: The plastic was fascinating … where did you find that one?

ddavitt: I always worry about moving big stuff like that..knock on effects could be nasty

E1Nei1: Jane shouldn’t feel bad. There’s very little education about the asteroids. But I think they’re our best bet.

ddavitt: But it’s so far ahead it’s not my problem

DenvToday: It’s a good thing that Home Depot was having a sale on plastic.

E1Nei1: Not so — unless you’re a lot older than me.

ddavitt: Do you like the exploded planet theory/ or is that debunked now?

AGplusone: Right, Milar makes a difference.

E1Nei1: Theories: geologists insist they were a planet, astrophysicists say they can’t have been. I go with the geologists.

ddavitt: Scary thought though; something that can destroy a planet.

AGplusone: and you go with the oil weren’t no dinosaurs theory as well …

ddavitt: dinosaur killer, atomic bombs, whatever…

E1Nei1: Mylar won’t work, but there are better plastics. And it was probably another planet that destroyed what became the asteroids.

E1Nei1: At least I hope so.

ddavitt: a hit or gravitational stresses?

AGplusone: Better them that Mike’s martians …

geeairmoe2: “Worlds in Collision” stuff?

E1Nei1: Hit, undoubtedly, or the planet wouldn’t have formed. Have to go with the non-bio oil theory, as the stuff is actually known to be there. 70% of the asteroids have it — it’s what makes chondrites carbonaceous.

E1Nei1: Collision? Well that’s how the planets were all _born_, isn;t it?

E1Nei1: They’re all “accretion bodies”/

E1Nei1: /ga

AGplusone: About your essays: do you submit them to National Review type publications? or is there a market like that beyond National Review?

E1Nei1: Gave up on NR a long time ago.

AGplusone: I know … just asking for what market there might be.

E1Nei1: I started _The Libertarian Enterprise_ to have an outlet. Now, of course, I have some collected in my new book -Lever Action_.

E1Nei1: I also just spam them out a lot. (^_^)

E1Nei1: ga

AGplusone: agplusone@aol.com spam away

E1Nei1: Thanks!

ddavitt: Do you prefer non fiction to fiction Neil?

ddavitt: writing it I mean

geeairmoe2: And which is easier?

E1Nei1: No, Jane, I’d rather be writing a novel than _practically_ anything else. But the nonfiction is necessary and offers its own satisfactions.

AGplusone: [don’

AGplusone: {don’t guarentee I’ll agree, but I enjoy reading them}

ddavitt: I would love to be able to write a story but it is beyond me. I envy all you writers that skill of creation.

ddavitt: But it’s fun reading them :-)

E1Nei1: Easier? Both are hard when you';ve just been writing the other usually takes me several days to switch. Both are easier. Sometimes they just gush out of the ends of your fingers. _The Mitzvah_ was like that, and so was the piece I just wrote against the drugwar.

ddavitt: The Mitzvah was a collaboration wasn’t it? is that difficult?

AGplusone: ‘burn with a hotter flame’ like Starship Troopers?

DenvToday: Folks, I’m in the middle of Lever Action. With me, Neil is preaching to the choir. Some of you might find his essay’s too forceful. But they’re always entertaining–and his use of language is worth the price by itself.

E1Nei1: Jane, never give up. I thought that same thing a decade before I wrote _TPB_.

DavidWrightSr: At what age did you start writing?

ddavitt: Thank you Neil.

E1Nei1: Thanks, Ron. Collaborating with Aaron Zelman is a breeze. he’s a great gentleman and a clever fellow. And I’m really looking forward to the book I’m doing with Rex May. I started writing when I was in 3rd grade, first published in a paper at maybe age 11, first novel sold in 1979.

E1Nei1: Oddly enough, finally published the short stories that cause me to think of giving up, _after_ TPB was published.

E1Nei1: caused.

AGplusone: someone see if they can invite FeatherzDad, please?

E1Nei1: ga

ddavitt: So how many of us here would class themselves libertarian? I know it doesn’t follow that all Heinlein fans are automatically libertarian..nor that all l’s are heinlein fans I suppose.

ddavitt: I will

E1Nei1: Remember that a libertarian is simply someone who won’t _initiate_ force to get what he wants.

AGplusone: probably not me … I don’t trust anyone except you guys, and only when I can keep my eyes on you

Featherz Dad has left the room.

E1Nei1: Not a matter of trust. It’s a matter of self-interest.

E1Nei1: ga

AGplusone: ‘splain that to me carefully … what’s the distinction between the two

AGplusone: or refer me to an essay, please

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

E1Nei1: Too long for here — but you can trust me to look out for myself, right? And I trust you to look out for yourself. That’s the beginning. Now we know what to expect from one another. Next step is reralizing that trading is better and more profitable than fighting. Step after that is to stay prepared for the stupid ones who’d still rather fight.

AGplusone: or steal

E1Nei1: And die.

ddavitt: Isn’t it a fairly recent political idea?

ddavitt: If so, why did it take so long to arrive?

AGplusone: so what do you do about oppression, form vigilance committees ad hoc?

E1Nei1: Depends. I think it’s the root of what the Founders had in mind. Of course there were later developments. Informal by RAH, more formal by Rand. And others.

ddavitt: I once said that I thought it could only work in an advanced yet simple state and got lots of static

AGplusone: referring to organized oppression … Soapy Smith et al

E1Nei1: It took so long because of the mystique of the state — which is simply institutionalized robber gangs. I wrote of this in _Pallas_ and of the way agriculture may have made things worse for us in that connection.

E1Nei1: Advanced but simple. See _Pallas_!

ddavitt: Basically, people prefer to let someone else do the thinking for them you mean?

E1Nei1: Remind me about Soapy Smith

AGplusone: The interesting theory in the book so far as I was concerned … support factually comes from where?

ddavitt: I haven’t been able to find that yet but I will carry on looking

AGplusone: Sidney Ducks in Frisco circa 1849

AGplusone: actually a bit later

E1Nei1: Support: got the idea from _Discover_ magazine piece that said developing agriculture may have been our biggest mistake asd it nails us down and m,akes us prey to robber gangs. Does other bad things, too — compare healthy paleolithic human bones to diseased and stressed neolithic one.

ddavitt: But without it what would we eat?

E1Nei1: Jared Diamond was the author. He’d probably stroke out to see what I did with his idea.

DenvToday: Jane, Cheese Doodles, of course.

AGplusone:but interesting extrapolation, wasn’t it?

E1Nei1: What would we eat? It’s all there in _Pallas_. Better is the best answer. Antything we want.

ddavitt: Don’t know them but they don’t sound appealing !

E1Nei1: How about VCheetos?

E1Nei1: Skip the V

ddavitt: Are they those bright orange things?

AGplusone: “V”s stick in your throat

AGplusone: yep

ddavitt: Yuck!

DenvToday: If God hadn’t meant us to eat Ding Dongs, He wouldn’t have invented cream filling. QED

AGplusone: Diamond is who?

E1Nei1: Yeah, the orange things. Yum. And Twinkies — but mostly Hostess cupcakes

ddavitt: Seen them but never eaten one

AGplusone: btw, surprised you haven’t a Jack Cade in Pallas …

ddavitt: I had a Joe Louis once

DenvToday: Jane, you’re missing the glories of American cuisine. :-)

E1Nei1: Diamond was a contributing editor who wound up running the mag. I gather he’s what PJ O’Rourke calls a “bedwetting liberal”. ‘Course I could be wrong.

AGplusone: ‘kay, thank you.

E1Nei1: Don’t know Jack Cade.

AGplusone: Fellow in one of Willy the S’s stories

ddavitt: Neil, what did you think of Heinlein’s Take Back Your Government, remembering when it was written?

E1Nei1: Okay. I have a Jack Slade somewhere.

AGplusone: Ah … good!

E1Nei1: RAH’s book was in the 50s sometime, I think. I haven’t read it yet. I have a more sideways approach to politics that I think is called for today.

pakgwei has entered the room.

ddavitt: Sideways?

AGplusone: You’d enjoy it I think …

ddavitt: Hi Pakgwei

pakgwei: what’d i miss whatd i miss?

AGplusone: Hi, Pakgwei, tonight’s L. Neil Smith as guest …

ddavitt: Everything!:-)

E1Nei1: Hello, Pakgwei

pakgwei: im slow… only a man you know

pakgwei: Hello

ddavitt: I make allowances

E1Nei1: As we make allownaces for Canadians, right?

ddavitt: I’m british remember!

AGplusone: Jane’s a reverse vampire … sun never sets on her!

E1Nei1: _Do_ forgive me! But you’re safe here in North America, right?

ddavitt: I like the canadians; very friendly people

pakgwei: same difference

ddavitt: LOL

DenvToday: Jane, it’s not our fault that you sing the wrong lyrics to My Country ‘Tis of Thee. :-)

ddavitt: Is canada North America?

E1Nei1: What were we talking about?

ddavitt: Not to Amazon when it comes to shipping fees…

pakgwei: how should i know…

E1Nei1: Yes, Jane, and it will soon be US!

ddavitt: We drifted

pakgwei: im american… we dont learn geography

ddavitt: I call a break for 5 mins or so

E1Nei1: Good!

DavidWrightSr: nor spelin

AGplusone: Okay, back at 21 past the hour?

ddavitt: We can refill glasses, feed the cat, whatever. OK?

AGplusone: Go feed cat ….

pakgwei: is there a topic tonight?

DenvToday: pakgwei, you’re right. But we do learn to feel good about not knowing it.

SAcademy: Nite all

ddavitt: Always a good idea AG; they get testy otherwise

AGplusone: [must find wine … ]

DavidWrightSr: Night Ginny.

ddavitt: Night Ginny! All unpacked?

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Too slow…

AGplusone: Yes, Pakgwei, Neil’s writings and RAH, same plan every day.

ddavitt: pakgwei, I forget; are you an afh poster?

pakgwei: not in a while

pakgwei: got sick of the neverending threads

ddavitt: I know I’ve seen you on the chats in the past

ddavitt: We have been drownding in spam recently but it seems to be easing off

pakgwei: i was posting under the name Stranger (real original, no?)

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: [found jug of Livingstone California red burgundy … virtual glass to all of you]

DenvToday: Salut!

ddavitt: Interesting to look at the last post in a thread; might be the same person who kills the discussion…

E1Nei1: (Raises Coke can)

ddavitt: Cheers!

pakgwei: *raises koolaide*

ddavitt: A Typhoid mary of threads

AGplusone: You’ll be happy to know, at least, I had a nice cigar whilst I finished up Emerson’s Saga today, Neil.

ddavitt: I was on Molson in honour of the Leafs

ddavitt: Now diet pepsi


E1Nei1: I used to smoke cigars occasionally — preferred Sherman’s cigarettes. But then I had those heart attacks in ’93.

AGplusone: That will do it, usually …

E1Nei1: Did it for me!

DenvToday: I didn’t know that Neil. How’s your condition?

pakgwei: i feel so pitaful… no drinking, no drugs, no smoking

pakgwei: an underachever i am

E1Nei1: No discernable damage, thanks to always having been a Vitamin E megadoser.

AGplusone: you still have sex and rock ‘n roll …

ddavitt: I drink in moderation, that’s all. Never done drugs nor smoked and happy to keep it that way.

DenvToday: I’m glad to hear that. Vitamin E? I take one per day. Not enough?

E1Nei1: I always sau I smoked all I could — 2 packs of Marlboros a day for 30 years.

E1Nei1: I take 2000 units a day.

pakgwei: sex and rocknroll are my favorites

E1Nei1: They’s good, pak.

DenvToday: pak, two excellent choices.

ddavitt: With you on that!

ddavitt: I combined the two and met my husband at a rock festival ;-)

AGplusone: If you were asked by someone who read all of Heinlein: which of your books in print should I read first, which one would you recommend?

DenvToday: Woohoo Jane!

ddavitt: It was a long time ago….

E1Nei1: _The American Zone_ (coming in November) or _TPB_

ddavitt: 14 years in August…

pakgwei: i combine the two and meet no women

AGplusone: I will refrain from remarking that your husband probably saw you as “smoking” Jane.

ddavitt: Ha!

pakgwei: maybe im doing them in the wrong order

ddavitt: You’re so funny david :-)

AGplusone: So old too

E1Nei1: Hey, Pak, you know what Limbai=ugh says: read women’s magazine articles aboiut whewre to meet men, then be there.

ddavitt: Keep at it Pakgwei

E1Nei1: Sorry about the typing.

pakgwei: i dunno,…. the few succeses Ive had havent been encouraging themselves

pakgwei: women are nuts

pakgwei: :-)

pakgwei: but anywaaaays.

ddavitt: As the only one here i protest!]

E1Nei1: Dig yourself out of that one!

AGplusone: What’s American Zone gonna “be about,” same old plan, Brain?

DenvToday: Neil, I’ve always liked your phrase “Propertarian” better than Libertarian. The word Liberty is open to everybody’s interpretation. But if property rights are respected, personal freedoms are invariably also respected.

AGplusone: [it’s the child’s cartoon hour you want after you retire … ]

ddavitt: OK; we will get back to the chat..I was up from 2.30 to 5.45 am with my baby so i will crash and burn soon

AGplusone: “Life, Liberty and Property … ”

E1Nei1: It’s already “about”, in the can and ready to be published. I may even have the cover on my website. It’s about a plot to force government on the Confederacy, battled by Win Bear, Clarissa, Lucy, Will Sanders, and his pregnant wives.

ddavitt: But isn’t libertariansim sometimes linked to anarchy/ Would anarchists respect property/ Remember the country in Number of the Beast where property could be be taken away easily?

ddavitt: the / are ?; finger slipped

AGplusone: Okay, back to that series … good, now I have to track down copies for sure of PB, etc., et al.

E1Nei1: There are propertarian anarchists, too. Different denomination. I’m one.

ddavitt: Confusing!

ddavitt: So many different types

AGplusone: PB equals Probability Broach, pakgwei, his most famous novel.

E1Nei1: Naw. The others think govt defends property against the worthy pooooor. We think govt threatens property and should be abolished. History is on our side in this.

pakgwei: I humbly admit I dont think Ive read anything of yours

ddavitt: Libertarianism is predominately American isn’t it/ why is that do you think?

E1Nei1: Bad pak! Seriously, start with _The Probability Broach_.

ddavitt: Due to your founding fathers and their ideals?

E1Nei1: No, there are libertarians all over the world. Most of them here, though. And Jane, they’re _your_ founding fathers, too. They recreated Western Civilization.

ddavitt: Not so sure about that; the 1848 revolutions were mostly European after all

AGplusone: We had a thread on why capitalism doesn’t work in developing countries, due to lack of notions concerning property we have was one development … any agreement there, Neil?

E1Nei1: Yes ….. ?

ddavitt: What effect ( good that is) did the FF’s have on Britain?

AGplusone: reformation of the rotten boroughs is one theory following St. Petersboro massacre

E1Nei1: FFs redefined western values and changed what the British govt has to be accountable for. In the end, that’ll destroy socialism there and save the country.

AGplusone: Of course, we all know what Harry Flashman’s governor thought about that!

ddavitt: I have to disagreee there as I don;t recall any changes in our system that can be directlt linked to them

E1Nei1: I agree with that about the Tird World if you also allow that much of our world actively tries to prevent their development. That’t what the environmental movement is largely about — Prime Directive, too!

E1Nei1: Jane, you should talk to a fellow named Sean Gabb. I’ll introduce you if you like.

ddavitt: magna carta defined it quite well, way back in 13th century?

AGplusone: The notion expressed was that most of the third world population has no concept of ‘property’ for themselves …

ddavitt: OK, sure!

E1Nei1: And Al Gore is happy to keep it that way.

AGplusone: property, as I think of it is entailed to the ruling class in perpetuity

E1Nei1: That’s in England.

E1Nei1: Well, sort of.

ddavitt: Well, the Queen owns a surprising amount of it certainly.

E1Nei1: Including here. I’d freeze it until certain human rights standards are met over there. Like starting jury trials again. And gun ownership.

AGplusone: no such thing as movin’ on to the frontier and staking a claim for your own

E1Nei1: Except straight up!

ddavitt: Well, there isn’t in the US now is there?

AGplusone: yes, your point and Heinlein’s

DenvToday: David, which is why so many libertarians are attracted to sci fi. It’s a way to wipe the slate clean.

AGplusone: You can still homestead, desert and a few places

E1Nei1: Isn';t what? Jury trials? Gun ownership? Then what’s this big ugly lump of a Glock 20 doiung here on my desk?

ddavitt: But as heinlein pointed out, we get there and the planets will probably have to fight to be free of Earth at some point

AGplusone: But you need to homestead … no marking your stakes and taking it …

E1Nei1: Oh, you mean a frontier? Right.

AGplusone: Gun, what gun? I have no guns, government … just don’t look under my bed.

E1Nei1: I believe that all colonies should start with the understanding that they’ll be free.

ddavitt: So who pays for them?

ddavitt: TANSTAAFL

ddavitt: Can’t expect them to be founded as a charity’ investors will want a profit and a say in things

pakgwei: not free of earth… free of corporations

AGplusone: Well, actually, so don’t … Georgia, the land of Oz …

AGplusone: some don’t

E1Nei1: Everyone who wants to. My group (the Colony Fund) will raise 50 billion in the next decade through ordinary free market means, starting with … well enough of that for now,

E1Nei1: ga

ddavitt: I think we have abandoned the queue

E1Nei1: How about this: read _The Man Who Sold the Moon_.

ddavitt: Yes?

AGplusone: think price will come down from $10 billion?

ddavitt: How does Dennis Tito tie in with that?

E1Nei1: Don;t know what you mean. CFI’s following the Zubrin plan. You know about that?

ddavitt: Proof that individual cash can have an influence on government space programmes

AGplusone: No, GA, ‘splain …

AGplusone: your forum, sir

E1Nei1: Dennis helped pay for a little more space work, didn’t he?

DenvToday: Neil, no I don’t. But I’d like to hear about it.

E1Nei1: Okay …

ddavitt: I think he set a good precedent for tourism in the not too distant future.

DenvToday: I offered Tito a ride in my Buick Regal for a mere 10 grand. He didn’t take me up on it.

ddavitt: Can it achieve LEO?

E1Nei1: Zubrin wrote a book, _The Case for Mars_.

ddavitt: If so, i may buy a ticket from you:-)

pakgwei: the way you drive?

DenvToday: No, but I have some great CD’s. And the air conditioning works.

pakgwei: the cosmonauts were safer

AGplusone: go on …

DenvToday: Oh wait…yes, I know the name!

E1Nei1: In it, he shows how to leave a permanent settlement there for $50 billion, using a plan to manufacture fuel in place.

DenvToday: From a Nova special a few years back.

AGplusone: Yes, the Nova special

AGplusone: didn’t see it a few years back, saw it last year

E1Nei1: It’s a good plan, trouble is, most folks want the govt to fund it. CFI doesn’t. Tell me — would you buy stock in a venture like that, either for profit or the hell of it? I would. Of course I’d want to go, too.

ddavitt: It’s still a long way away in time to get there. Need to get the journey time down maybe?

pakgwei: id buy stock for the good of it

E1Nei1: Well, technology may make that possible.

ddavitt: If all the SF fans gave a dollar we could do it easily

ddavitt: But it’s the admin..

E1Nei1: Anyway, whalers and explorers sailed for longer than it’ll take to get to MArs

E1Nei1: First, we need to get NASA out of the way.

AGplusone: Magellen far longer

ddavitt: Not quite the same though

DenvToday: Neil, there are already international treaties designed to impose government, taxes, etc on any space colonies. How will you handle that?

AGplusone: Tito may help there.

E1Nei1: See _Hope_, coming soon from JPFO. Sequel to _The Mitzvah_.

pakgwei: nasa is a funbling antiquated giant

E1Nei1: Treaties were made to be abrogated.

AGplusone: Even Cameron (I am king of the world) … if he does his special.

pakgwei: tereaties would have to have someone to enforce them

pakgwei: treaties even

E1Nei1: Right. And they’d have to be better shots than us.

DenvToday: But you have to have the means to back it up.

ddavitt: But the colonies would NEED earth for so long; that would be the stick

AGplusone: Despite his plaguerizin every writer in the Galaxy

E1Nei1: The means exist.\

pakgwei: “farmer in the sky” style

E1Nei1: Maybe — minus the agriculture. (^_^)

DenvToday: Are we talking gravity well, ala The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?

pakgwei: Deatils!

pakgwei: :-)

AGplusone: You’d have a hellava time doing a K.S. Robinson on Mars.

pakgwei: details that is

E1Nei1: As I say, I prefer Ceres or Pallas. Smaller scale, fewer problems.

ddavitt: Even further though?

AGplusone: Yes, and how far from orbit of Mars in days are the group you’re talking about?

E1Nei1: Not enough to count, especially at constant boost.

AGplusone: Land base on Mars for fuel?

AGplusone: A triangle trade sorta thing?

DenvToday: I think we’ve all read RAH’s essay in Expanded Universe about constant boost to Mars. It’s still relevant.

E1Nei1: Gravity well would use it up. There’s fuel in the asteroids, too, remmber?

ddavitt: Would need little ships to get about like in Rolling Stones?

E1Nei1: Yes!

pakgwei: you read about the plasma rocket they are working on?

E1Nei1: Space Winnebagos! (Where have we seen that before?)

pakgwei: using magnetic fields for containment

AGplusone: They were mentioned in the Nova special

ddavitt: Sounds like fun:-)

DenvToday: May the Schwartz be with you!

E1Nei1: No. I’ve been busy writing until recently. I prer other means — cold fusion, for one.

E1Nei1: prefer

AGplusone: if it exists

ddavitt: Is that on the cards?

ddavitt: I’m totally not scientific….

ddavitt: so I’m not up on this at all

E1Nei1: Remeber you heard it from me. It’s suppressed technology, but they can’t keep it down forever. It’ll change everything. This from the guy who predicted (almost alone) the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

pakgwei: i seem to remember someone named heinlein saying the societ union couldnt last too

pakgwei: :-)

AGplusone: ‘kay, and the Sagebrush rebellion …

DenvToday: I predicted–accurately–the collapse of my physique.


E1Nei1: That’s why I said “almost”.

E1Nei1: Don’t let your physique collapse. You’re going to need it.

E1Nei1: More fun is ahead than you can imagine.

DenvToday: lol So very true. Which is why I insist on exercising my jaw muscles by eating Milk Duds. You actually burn more calories than you take in.

E1Nei1: Ha! Ha! Got me there!

AGplusone: I always thought so … nothin’ changes, everything stays the same no matter how much it ‘changes’ …

pakgwei: is that like smoking while you jog?

DenvToday: lol Very close.

AGplusone: we usta do it in airborne … while we double-timed … you hadda be real tough to do that …

E1Nei1: I’m diabetic, and I fight every day to stay alive long enough for gene therapy to be developed. My life has already been extended by angioplasty, atherectomy, and antiobiotics. We’re all gonna live a long time.

DenvToday: Neil, I learned something today about Asthma and smoking in Lever Action. I didn’t realize how many people develop it when they quit smoking.

E1Nei1: I think they always have it and smoking hepls it.

E1Nei1: helps

AGplusone: Asphrodel …

E1Nei1: Yes?

E1Nei1: I use Ventolin — not very good.

AGplusone: was the name brand of a mj cigarette they used to prescribe for asthma smokers

E1Nei1: Oh!

E1Nei1: Very interesting.

DenvToday: Neil, you must have been especially thrilled by the human genome mapping.

AGplusone: in the 30s … my great grandfather smoked them … mother worked a jazz joint when she was sixteen in Cicero, someone lighted up, and she asked if he had asthma? Innocently

E1Nei1: Yes and no. Depends how it’s used — genome mapping.

E1Nei1: I’m somewhat allergic to mj. Like my mind clear in any case.

E1Nei1: I’m mostly a tequila guy.

AGplusone: well, I didn’t inhale

DenvToday: One would hope it would eventually lead to medical miracles. Of course, I’m optimistic.

E1Nei1: Right!

ddavitt: I am regretfully going to have to say goodnight as I’m very tired. Neil, thanks for joining us, I hope you can make it on Saturday too. I enjoyed the discussion tonight! AG, I leave the chat in your capable hands

E1Nei1: About inhaling, I mean.

DenvToday: Night Jane.

E1Nei1: See you saturday, Jane. Thanks very much for your help.

pakgwei: night jane


ddavitt: No problem; hope the net is behaving better

AGplusone: Before you go, Jane …

ddavitt: Yep?

AGplusone: I have to be at a meeting Saturday with Connie Willis, book signing, so someone has got to be here.

ddavitt: I can open up

DenvToday: Neil, what you said before about cold fusion has really intrigued me. As you said, it would change everything. Who is suppressing it?

AGplusone: ‘kay

ddavitt: But bedtimes and meals will intervene at times

AGplusone: let Oz know please … or someone

E1Nei1: Ron — just try to tell me what ox in out civilization that _isn’t_ gored by your having a little box in your car and basement that supplies all the power you need almost for free. The you’ll know who _isn’t_ suppressing it, right?

ddavitt: Will do. I’m sure it will coast along if i have to vanish now and then

E1Nei1: our civilization

ddavitt: Final goodbye!

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: why don’t we take another five … until 5 past the hour … or ten if we wish …

E1Nei1: Bye, Jane!

E1Nei1: I’ll take 5.

DenvToday: I see your point.

AGplusone: Jane’s got the fastest escape in the universe …

pakgwei: what do you think of Zero Point Energy?

AGplusone: okay, afk … Denv has the conn

E1Nei1: Pak, I think it’s a hoax.

DenvToday:Yes sir!

E1Nei1: Gone for 5 now.

pakgwei: hoax or mistake

DenvToday: I’ll be here stoking the fire.

pakgwei: would be nice to believe… but difficult

AGplusone: bak

AGplusone: cat didn’t need much water …

pakgwei: cats dont need us

AGplusone: true … one problem we had this time … so damned few of his books are in print

DenvToday: “Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.” – RAH

DavidWrightSr: what is zero point energy?

AGplusone: wb Dave

pakgwei: mmm…

DavidWrightSr: I been here. Just not much to say tonight.

pakgwei: supposed unknown energy source that could very well be all around us…

pakgwei: a teaspoon able to provide massive amounts of power

AGplusone: the ether … or the waves in Magic, Inc. …

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of Waldo.

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

AGplusone: sorry, Waldo, of course

pakgwei: supposedly discovered when trying to seperate plates of metal

DenvToday: I’d settle for cold fusion. I’m not greedy. lol

AGplusone: The sort of adhesion you get when you have those machined blocks they use to measure?

pakgwei: thikn so

pakgwei: that was my impression anyways

E1Nei1: I’m back. And cold fusion’s on the way. And that adhesion is air pressure.

pakgwei: i may have misunderstood

AGplusone: Thought there was some molecular bonding with real fine machining

E1Nei1: Not in an atmosphere.

E1Nei1: Happens up there, though.

AGplusone: hate to tell you how long ago I had chemistry

E1Nei1: Messy sometimes

DenvToday: Neil, how long do you think it will be before we have cold fusion?

E1Nei1: Depends entirely on politics.

pakgwei: did anyone ever figure out what Shipstones were?

E1Nei1: Look for our book _Hope_. We think it might help a little.

AGplusone: “Our”? as in …

E1Nei1: It’s a sequel to _The Mitzvah_, with Aaron Zelman.

E1Nei1: Due out in just a few weeks. jpfo.org

DenvToday: I’ll look for it. Thanks.

AGplusone: about your back catalogue … one publisher has it looked in … or can you get Spectrum to look at it?

AGplusone: locked in

E1Nei1: Hate to say, who’s Spectrum? I’m with several publishers.

AGplusone: look at the links page to http://www.heinleinsociety.org

E1Nei1: Will do. I’m with Tor, Baen. Mazel Freedom Press, and Mountain media.

AGplusone: Ginny got them to bring out Orphans recently, evidently no one else wanted to …

AGplusone: which is nuts

E1Nei1: Booo!!

AGplusone: selling exclusively internet

E1Nei1: Ahhh…

Major oz has entered the room.

E1Nei1: I may try a collection of stories like that.

AGplusone: Evenin’ Oz

pakgwei: i always find the lack of Heinlein sselection amazing in some of these chain stores

Major oz: ‘even, folks…..

E1Nei1: Hello, Oz.

DenvToday: Hiya Oz

AGplusone: talking about several interesting things … are you on an e mail IPS so I can send you a log?

AGplusone: Or is it your steam-powered ISP again …

Major oz: Sorry for the lateness……..the local kids monopolize the FOUR modems of my ISP.

Major oz: The propane powered one………

AGplusone: okay, @aol.com work?

DenvToday: Oz, are the hamsters on a dinner break?

Major oz: works fine……assuming I can get on locally then transition to AOL

Major oz: The kids are in bed……they milk at 0300 hrs.

Major oz: In answer to your Q: my normal AOL addy will do just fine. I will back off, now, and let the conversation resume.

AGplusone: Okay, “outgoing”

E1Nei1: Mighty quiet in here …

AGplusone: You might enjoy that heinleinsociety.org website

AGplusone: Oz the engineer is reading madly … waiting for the cold fusion to come back up …

E1Nei1: Gonna check it out right away. Say, how does this private message thing work? I’ve tried sending two, to no avail.

AGplusone: We have a little fun. You highlight the name in the column on the right, and double click … should give you a window and you type the message

E1Nei1: Did that

E1Nei1: I’ll try again.

AGplusone: With IBMs you have to minimize and maximize the windows … or learn how to tile them

AGplusone: on your screen

AGplusone: did you read the critique I wrote about Pallas on AFH?

AGplusone: “AFH” equals the alt.fan.heinlein newsgroup

E1Nei1: Don’t know. I usually don’t read them. I confess. Espoecially the good ones. They’ll _really_ screw you up!

AGplusone: Shame Joel isn’t here now

AGplusone: I just bitched about the characterization or what I felt was a lack

AGplusone: quoted the heinleinian thingy from On the Writing of Speculative Fiction about essays cloaked as novels

AGplusone: Had very little affinity for Emerson … the boy or the man.

AGplusone: Actually … maybe the last (before the attack) Emerson warmed up a little …

E1Nei1: You said you weren’t a libertarian, right? I had a huge argument with my editor about this issue, especially the Senator. My theory is thee was so much to the Senator that he had in common with the editor — that the editor didn;’t want to see — that what was left was minimal. Not saying the same is true of you, of course. Sorry you didn’t like Emerson. FWIW, Heinlein himself like my stuff and

E1Nei1: recommended it to others, especially new writers.

AGplusone: I don’t doubt that.

AGplusone: I thought Senator was far more cardboard …

E1Nei1: That’s why I don’t care much what critics say. If the Old man liked me, that’s enough.

E1Nei1: ga

AGplusone: I didn’t understand what the hell he was doing … anytime … everything he did, especially at the end surprised the shit out of me.

E1Nei1: Oh! That’s cause you’re not a liberal!!

E1Nei1: I had to study to write him.


E1Nei1: Basically, he thought he was an aristocratic benefactor and

AGplusone: surprise some of my friends and associates to find that out

AGplusone: /ga

E1Nei1: he couldn’t understand why people rejected his “help”.

AGplusone: yes, they don’t

E1Nei1: That’s the way Teddy Kennedy thinks, for sure. And Hillary.

AGplusone: I could no sooner get through to Feinstein about gun regulation than I could to Josep Stalin

E1Nei1: Of course his “help” invariably destroys them.

E1Nei1: Getting through to Feinstein isn’t necessary.

AGplusone: sí, claro

AGplusone: But she wastes a seat with that nonsense

E1Nei1: (Suppresses rude remark about Diane Feinstein’s seat.)

AGplusone: that too

AGplusone: Boxer otoh is a fox … getting old, but a fox

DavidWrightSr: Neil, I had a great deal of trouble dealing with the ‘evil’ which drove so much of the action in Henry Martyn.

E1Nei1: One of mine: Sarah Brady is no lady/ Diane Feinstein is no Einstein.

pakgwei: Im out. Night all.

pakgwei has left the room.

AGplusone: Rofl

AGplusone: see ya, Pak

DavidWrightSr: I also had a little bit of a problem with Henry becoming such a leader at so young an age.

E1Nei1: Bye, pak, nice meeting you.

Major oz: Well……speed reading is not my forte

AGplusone: … but …

Major oz: But it seems that I have a soul cousin.

AGplusone: I’m outnumbered!

DenvToday: lol David

Major oz: Lifer in the NRA and a Ding-Dong addict.

E1Nei1: Well, the main evil in _HM_ is not calling things by their right name. The underlying evil everywhere is the desire to control the lives of others. We don’t see the core of evil until _Bretta_.

E1Nei1: Gott go for a sec — dog needs let out.

AGplusone: [I keep trying to tell everyone I bought an M-1 from the NRA when I was fifteen, with three other boy scouts … ]

AGplusone: but I don’t think they have me in their records base …

Major oz: I’m the only person I know who is a 38 yr NRA lifer and an ACLU member.

Major oz: Diane does…………

AGplusone: I bet she does

Major oz: Anyone who has ever used the word “gun” online is in her data base.

AGplusone: I write her e mail beginning: “Dear stupid … I’m not going to vote for you next time even if the only choice I have is you or a Republican

E1Nei1: Then I’m on a million times

E1Nei1: her list, that is.

E1Nei1: I was Junior NRA in the 50s.

AGplusone: I think that was what they called the program that let us buy an M-1

E1Nei1: Metallic silhouette competitor until just recently and want to start again.

AGplusone: for Boy Scout shooting

Major oz: Have you been to the NRA range in NM ?

E1Nei1: Well kids should have guns. And Henry Martyn was brought up in a way that made him an adult sooner — like they did in the 19th century.

E1Nei1: Yeah, I shot as a scout. And yes, I’ve been to the Whittington center. It’s beautiful.

AGplusone: I never saw a problem with kids having guns … what’s the big deal …

AGplusone: you let them have cars.

Major oz: I have the Nugent sticker: “Take your kids hunting / So you won’t have to hunt for your kids.

E1Nei1: Control of others is what’s at stake.

AGplusone: yes, and I see control on all sides …

Major oz: My first one a single shot Rem #514 at age 13.

E1Nei1: Many of my books put guns in kids’ hands. What control do you see on the libertarian side? if you see any, it’s not being done right.

AGplusone: which is why, like Prof Bernardo de la Paz I can get along with a Randist … or even a Libertarian.

Major oz: Still use it to zap chucks that burrow into my dam.

E1Nei1: Didn’t own a gun until later — an Astra Cub .22 short.

AGplusone: used to pot gophers on lawns … and also dogs that people brought by to dump on my lawn … with a very reduced reloaded wax round from a .22

E1Nei1: We used Model 52s that weighed about 300 pounds.

E1Nei1: Now, well I just built an EAA Witness .45.

Major oz: Problem I have with big “L” Libertarianism is that, by its nature, it is made up of people who do NOT want to run anything. So they can’t effectively organize to run anything.

AGplusone: problem was the homemade silencer had to be rebuilt after about five shots

E1Nei1: Naughty, naughty!

Major oz: steel wool in a beer can

AGplusone: yes, well … exactly

E1Nei1: Emptry plastic 2-liter pop bottle

Major oz: Kind of a small “glass pack” from the 53 Olds.

AGplusone: thing is, everyone thinks Republicans are the only ones with hidden guns … what idiots

E1Nei1: Actually, there is a way to _not_ run things properly. No room or time to tell it here, though.

Major oz: Who is going to edit this before it is posted on the archive site ?

AGplusone: Me or Dave

Major oz: hokay

DavidWrightSr: What do you want edited?

E1Nei1: Shouldn’t hide ‘em. Encourages the badguys.

AGplusone: Statute of limitations has run on my escapades with silenced .22s shooting at dog’s asses

Major oz: Silencers, especially in the coming attractions in Indiana next week………..

E1Nei1: Anyway you should strand up and be counted — or surveilled.

E1Nei1: stand

AGplusone: I’m just a tired old man … harmless

Major oz: re: Ding-Dongs……….can’t have them anymore. The docs said no.

E1Nei1: We’re all just harmless loveable little fuzzballs.

Major oz: Used to eat a box at a time

E1Nei1: What’s with Ding-Dongs — when there are Hostess cupckaes?

E1Nei1: cupcakes

Major oz: Wasn’t the Alaska congrescritter a Libertarian?

Major oz: a few terms back……..?

AGplusone: tell us some more about cold fusion … convince me of something …

Major oz: …..and perpetual motion……

E1Nei1: No, that was a legislator. The Party has severe problems. One of them, now, is me.

Major oz: what…………..??????????

Major oz: ….is that about.

Major oz: cold fusion, that is

Major oz: UU took bad press on that one.

E1Nei1: What do you want to know about cold fusion. I’m a social observer, not a physicist — although when I first heard about it I slapped my head and said “why didn’t I think of that?”

AGplusone: In Pallas, the more incredible plot item I found was the industrial revolution (sorta) with the cold fusion plot … considering it was discredited in the media … but you wrote Pallas before that happened

Major oz: The important thing about it is that there ain’t no such thing.

E1Nei1: Oz — the LP is run by cheap crooks. I’ve fought them for 8 years and may even win sometime. More only if you want to hear it.

Major oz: Is it on your page…..or links?

E1Nei1: Cold fusion has not been discredited, only lied about.

AGplusone: go ahead, just us chickens and I’ll edit it if you wish ….

Major oz: Like time travel, not discredited, just not developed.

AGplusone: I said “in the media”

E1Nei1: If it’s discredited, then why are GE and the Japanese government financing experiments in Switzerland?

DenvToday: Neil, it’s official–you’re off Harry Browne’s Christmas card list.

Major oz: Looking for it is fine.

E1Nei1: The physics are fine — interstitial pressures, low presence of deuterium in tap water, etc.

Major oz: But I tend to play the odds.

AGplusone: go on …

Major oz:

AGplusone: I’m just a stupid english major who became a lawyer … before he retired

E1Nei1: The original discovery was made decades ago in Germany and misunderstood. Tell you what: I’ll post a paper on my website. Give me a couple days.

AGplusone: Okay, and the url is:

AGplusone: so Oz can find it easy

Major oz: And I’m a Zeb Carter wanna-be

Major oz: I got your site in my fav’s already

E1Nei1: http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil And thanks, Oz.

DenvToday: I look forward to reading it.

AGplusone: ‘kay, and thank you … so will I

AGplusone: twelve minutes to go … Oz I have to meet with Connie Willis Saturday, will try to get back while it’s going …

AGplusone: and we need a notice …

E1Nei1: I have two other sites. End that first one with /tle instead of /lneil and you’ve got _The Libertarian Enterprise_. And there’s smith2004.com a new one.

Major oz: well………even Linus Pauling was thought to be a wacko (vitamin C). But, after his death, he was found to be correct.

AGplusone: if Dave can get the log posted, you might even link today’s in your notice with the URL, not the AOL link … just suggesting, mind you …

AGplusone: Yes, Linus is a good example

E1Nei1: Of course Linus thought DNA has three strands …

E1Nei1: Which is true of the lamviin in

AGplusone: and Aristotle thought women had 28 teeth

Major oz: Then, of course, there was Schotky (sp?)

E1Nei1: _Their Majesties’ Bucketeers_

E1Nei1: Who?

AGplusone: rhymes with Trotsky

E1Nei1: And …

Major oz: Inventor of the transistor, who spent the rest of his life trying to prove the inferiority of blacks.

Major oz: Nobel Laureate.

AGplusone: okay

E1Nei1: Oops. Well, didn’t Isaac newton believe in astrology and numerology?

Major oz: Of course, Hanoi Jane is Born Again………hee, hee, hee

E1Nei1: And she has some land she wants to sell you in Florida. too.

Major oz: Yeah, Ike was VERY alchemical.

AGplusone: AND Menckin as we’re learning was for unfantomable reasons an anti-semite

E1Nei1: Simply proving that nobody’s perfect.

Major oz:

AGplusone: Remind me to tell you the time I told the Jane-Hayden kids off

E1Nei1: So tell

AGplusone: He used to have his office upstairs from me. She’d dump the kids on him on weekends when he used to work, so he’d talk them to the office with him. they’d run amok … I chewed their asses once … not a sound from upstairs

AGplusone: talk=take

AGplusone: and they never ran amok again

E1Nei1: Neat

AGplusone: Of course I had NOW in the other corner of the building …

AGplusone: funny things happen in the former People’s Republic of Santa Monica

E1Nei1: Hey, Ron, would you e-mail me your phone number in case I can’t find this place again on Saturday?

Major oz: I just heard CA refered to as a Banana Republic

AGplusone: that’s better than nimby

E1Nei1: No, bananas are too good for it.

Major oz: BANANA……….Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody

AGplusone: exactly

Major oz: Thought it so appropriate to the current “crisis” < E1Nei1: Gents, I have to go, as my womenfolk need to use the phone. Thanks very much. I’ll “see” you Saturday. Major oz: See you then, perhaps DavidWrightSr: Nite Neil. Thanks AGplusone: Thank you … even if I am a liberal democrat Major oz: thanx E1Nei1: Bye, guys. AGplusone: so-styled E1Nei1 has left the room. AGplusone: G’nite … pretty good for a small turnout Major oz: RATS>>>>>>>>>I really wanted to be here on time for him.

AGplusone: We’ll have to drag more in now for Saturday. I’ll really try to get back in time, Oz. Naw.

DenvToday: Night everybody. See you all on Saturday.

Major oz: I will miss Sat, probably, as I have a Bluegrass Jam to play in.

AGplusone: G’nite Ron and thanks

DenvToday: Sure thing :-)

DenvToday: byeeee….

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: Goodnight, David ….

Major oz: Well, guys. I guess I will see you whenever.

DavidWrightSr: Night David

AGplusone: and good-night for NBC news … see ya, Oz

Major oz: ‘nite

Major oz has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially Closed at 11:58 P.M. EDT


AGplusone: you need a backup?>

DavidWrightSr: Nope Got it all. Thanks

AGplusone: or a front up …

AGplusone: okay
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 04-28-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Teachers In Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 04-28-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Teachers In Heinlein

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

joelrmpls has entered the room.

SAcademy has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Good afternoon.

SAcademy: Good afternoon. I have things to do so I’ll leave and come back later.

joelrmpls: Looking forward to chatting with you.

SAcademy: I just returned from a cruise–a short one, and everything is in a mess!

joelrmpls: I hope it was fun.

joelrmpls: It’s among the many things I’ve never done, but intend to do, sooner or later.

SAcademy: Haven’t unpacked yet, and had to clean the refrigerator, and go shopping for food.

SAcademy: The food was very good–nice ship, but too many people aboard.

SAcademy: They’re like floating tenement houses these days.

joelrmpls: I’m not much for crowds, myself, unless I know everybody, and often not even then. But, alas, I am overly fond of good food.

SAcademy: Believe it or not, I didn’t gain a single pound.

SAcademy: But it was nice to get to sea again. I think I have salt water in my veins.

joelrmpls: I’ve actually been doing quite well on the weight issue for the past three years. My doctor says that me being diagnoses with diabetes may well have been the healthiest thing that’s happened to me since I gave up smoking in 1985.

joelrmpls: I enjoy sailing, although I’ve only gone on the sea once — Minnesota has lakes, but that’s a different thing.

SAcademy: Very different.

SAcademy: I have to keep out of the sun–former redhead.

SAcademy: So I don’t sai any more in small boats.

SAcademy: sail

joelrmpls: I burn easily, despite my relatively swarthy complexion. But I do like getting out on the water, even if it doesn’t go up and down.

SAcademy: Have to go and get my other glasses.

joelrmpls: Ooops… got to go pick up my daughters from a friend’s; back later, I hope.

joelrmpls has left the room.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

stephenveiss has left the room.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi everyone

stephenveiss: hiya.. I’m actually here and awake for once.. amazing :-)

ddavitt: Yes, this isn’t too bad for you is it?

ddavitt: Are you home SA or still on holiday?

stephenveiss: its fine for me..

ddavitt: I forget how old you are; is it O’s or A’s this summer?

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Kultsi

KultsiKN: Hello, all!

stephenveiss: its Os.. but Im taking one A early (Computing)

ddavitt: Seems to be just me and Stephen actually here

ddavitt: Good luck!

stephenveiss: thanks :-)

ddavitt: How is the pic page ? Didn’t mean to get you into trouble!

ddavitt: :-)

stephenveiss: heh.. its getting there.. between coursework and revision, gettin stuff like that done has been a problem.. I apologise..

stephenveiss: will try to work on it tonight

KultsiKN: come on, Stephen, don’t overdo it!

ddavitt: Does it take a long time to input new stuff?

ddavitt: I have a page in theory but nothing is on it

stephenveiss: it doesnt take that long.. its just that most of my coursework/revision is done on the PC.. its nice to take a break from it

ddavitt: I tried to input a photo from the hard drive and it didn’t work so I gave up :-(

stephenveiss: :-\..

ddavitt: Fresh air you mean? have to watch that stuff

stephenveiss: well, just anything that doesnt involve a monitor and keyboard :-)

ddavitt: I know the feeling

KultsiKN: Huh! Everybody’s leaving AIM…

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Booted probably

ddavitt: SA may not be at home yet which might be causing more problems

KultsiKN: That’s a sad fact :-(

SAcademy has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny!

McKevin0 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

McKevin0: Hello all

SAcademy: Hello, all.

ddavitt: Don’t recognise the name; first time here?

ddavitt: Not you SA:-)

rjjusu has entered the room.

McKevin0: I’m an old Prodigy HF’er – been away a while

ddavitt: Are you home or still on holiday?

McKevin0: Just recently started lurking again

ddavitt: Welcome to this chat then. We plan to look at the teachers in Heinlein’s books

McKevin0: Thanks for the welcome. It’s been good to see some old posters again

ddavitt: I’m just trying to catch up on the log of the Thursday chat to see what happened after I left

SAcademy: I’m afraid my mind is still on holiday

ddavitt: Know the feeling!

KultsiKN: Wish mine were, too1

rjjusu: Good afternoon/evening, all.

SAcademy: Did I send all of you an email from the sea?

ddavitt: Hello!

ddavitt: Yes, thanks. You were having problems with AOL though

ddavitt: Glad the Bermuda Triangle was navigated safely.:-)

rjjusu: I was just reading the log myself. I think you came close on the math idea Jane, but could have expanded it a bit.

ddavitt: We can look at it again if you have new points to raise

SAcademy: AOL Anywhere still has a lot of problems. You still can’t initiate correspondence. Have to just answer what comes in

ddavitt: That’s the beauty of 2 chats on the same subject

ddavitt: That must be annoying

rjjusu: We’ll see where the discussion flow goes – if it is like most, it will be like water – always seeking the lowest level. :-)

SAcademy: It was. They will get around to fixing it later I hope.

ddavitt: Not here; we flow uphill all the time:-)

rjjusu: Yes, only in a RAH discussion could we negate the second law of thermodynamics….

SAcademy: Robert would have loved that!

McKevin0: Fifth law of thermodynamics has something to do with my wife and me fighting over the thermostat:-\

ddavitt: OK, I am going to read the chat fast. brb

rjjusu: Wouldn’t we all – then we more easily could achieve some of his many dreams and visions. Unfortunately, the laws associated with political decision making often attempt to deny the laws of the universe.

SAcademy: Does anyone else love going to sea? Or do you use airplanes all the time?

McKevin0: Have never gone to sea, though my wife has been after me to take a cruise sometime. Am afraid I’d be broke after being on a ship with a casino for several days.

rjjusu: I’d love to go on a cruise some time, but I’ve spent most of my professional life flying or working with aerospace platforms of one type or another, so the sky has a great attraction to me. But I must admit that the few times I’ve been to the shore, either coast, and looked out at the sea, that there is an undeniable attraction.

SAcademy: No matter, you just avoid the casino. But it’s a better thing to go on a smaller ship than one that has a casino.

McKevin0: Understood SA, probably not much of the flavor of being at sea comes through on a large ship.

rjjusu: There is something about the vastness, and the overwhelming power inherent in that large body of water that reaches into one’s soul and challenges it …

SAcademy: I just played $2.00 worth on this trip.

ddavitt: I’m back.

ddavitt: I love the sea; English after all, hard to live far from it…but I get sea sick. Not fun:-(

SAcademy: Quarter slots. Lost it all of course.

ddavitt: I won the jackpot once or twice but probably put more in than I’ve got out over the years

SAcademy: Try Bonin. And I understand that there’s a new Dramamine which doesn’t make you drowsy

McKevin0: My son went to a casino right after his 21st birthday. Put in $20 and won $200 immediately. Then did it again. I think that’s their way to hook newbies.

ddavitt: Not a problem at the moment but I’ll remember that.

ddavitt: Ontario is so far from the sea….but the lakes are lovely

ddavitt: OK, do we want to start?

SAcademy: I haven’t seen Ontario, you just can’t go everywhere in the world!–it’s tooo large.

ddavitt: Randy, since you had a query do you want to kick off?

McKevin0: Am all ears

ddavitt: You’ve seen more of it than all of us put together probably so I’ll take your word on that

SAcademy: Well, we spent years at it!

rjjusu: Will do, in a second….

ddavitt: I once thought it would be fun to recreate the Tramp Royale trip and see what had changed…

ddavitt: Wonder if it would be easier or more difficult now?

ddavitt: Visas and such are maybe less necessary

SAcademy: I’m sure the Aussie income tax situation for foreigners has.

ddavitt: And you can take as much money as you want now?

SAcademy: I don’t know that Rules change.

ddavitt: Never had a problem spending UK money; no restrictions now on how much you can take abroad

SAcademy: But if we ran short, we’d send a cable to Lurton and get more money.

ddavitt: There was after the war I think

ddavitt: Actually, your trip might be impossibe now; no ships, everyone flies

SAcademy: Yes, British were allowed to take out about $50

ddavitt: The routes you went on might not exist now

ddavitt: Mind boggles

rjjusu: Jane, in the first discussion, there was a lot of talk about the importance of math. Most of it focussed on learning how to think “logically”. However, of equal importance is the idea that math is a “LANGUAGE”, and like any language, it has a vocabulary and a grammer. Languages truly shape our thinking. The differences between English, Russian, and Japanese are more than just grammer and semantics.

rjjusu: There are true differences in thinking that come through when we speak and read in those languages in the original.

SAcademy: Take freighters–those are fun. Only 12 passengers, and you learn to play cribbage.

ddavitt: Isn’t maths universal language tho?

rjjusu: How do YOU mean universal language?

ddavitt: I would get sea sick on a little boat!

stephenveiss has left the room.

ddavitt: If I write an equation in UK, someone in US would understand it

SAcademy: If people wqant to get along together, language isn’t a real barrier–just use your hands.

KultsiKN: I can attest to that, SA.

ddavitt: Yep; pointing and looking puzzled works

rjjusu: Yes, but in some countries you can go to jail for that, or upset your spouse … :-)

SAcademy: I was sure you knew it, too Kultsi

ddavitt: and smiling…

ddavitt: Like Poddy says, if you know please and thank you, it’s a big help too

ddavitt: But of course, going back to maths, the difference in measurements can mess things up

ddavitt: That’s engineering of course

KultsiKN: A real PITA.

ddavitt: But isn’t a quadratic a quadratic the world over?

rjjusu: Jane, there are at least two levels to that. Assuming you are only looking at the math, yes, a self-consistent mathematical system would have the equation solve the same way in both “minds” But, if you were going to attach a physical meaning to the math, you have to know what the common symbology is, and what you want the variables and constants to represent.

McKevin0: Read the other day that if God had wanted us to use the metric system we would have had 10 disciples :-D

ddavitt: Give me an example?

ddavitt: Funny!

rjjusu: A second-order partial differential equation can represent heat flow, electromagnetic equations, or neutron transport in a reactor – same equations, different things entirely.

ddavitt: Yanking it back to Heinlein tho, why do you think he put so much emphasis on the importance of maths over all other subjects?

ddavitt: I sort of don’t understand that….

McKevin0: Well, being an engineer by training…

rjjusu: Because it IS an important language, and if you have good teachers to help you explore the meanings inherent in it, you can discuss problems in many areas….

ddavitt: fair enough.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

ddavitt: Maybe it wasn’t explained in the text through lack of space

ddavitt: Hi Joel

DavidWrightSr: Hi Everyone. I’m Back

ddavitt: Just looking at the importance of maths in the books and why that is so

ddavitt: Hi Dave!

joelrmpls: Hi, all.

KultsiKN: Hello, Joel!

joelrmpls: You get that file, Jane?

ddavitt: Half way thru chapter 3 thanks!

joelrmpls: (I can only stay a while today; stuff has to get done.)

ddavitt: It’s set in Crimson Sky town!

joelrmpls: Well, yeah.

KultsiKN: OK, give!

joelrmpls: Although all of the fantasy stuff takes place offstage, and has nothing at all to do with the plot.

ddavitt: Before or after the events in that?

rjjusu: Remember, that it can apply not only to engineering, but to other areas. Recall the professor/psychologist in “Blowups Happen” – math was extremely important there, as it could explain not only what might have happened on the moon, but it might explain what was happening in the minds of those under stress.

joelrmpls: I’m not sure. It’s either before the Night of the Wolves, or Sparky is the only person in Hardwood who doesn’t know about it.

joelrmpls: It’s not really intended to fit into the chronology; I just wanted to set it there, and get back to some of those characters.

joelrmpls: K > Give, what?

ddavitt: OK, looking forward to finishing it.

ddavitt: Isn’t that more pshchology tho Randy?

ddavitt: sp

KultsiKN: That file sounds sort of interesting…

ddavitt: but you know wha I mean

ddavitt: I am typing and looking after lauren and Eleanor. Multitasking is a mum speciality :-)

joelrmpls: It’s my new spec (i.e. written on speculation; no publishing contract) novel, Foreign Land. Nonsf.

ddavitt: Several Heinlein refs too…like the mortgage burning party? Or is that a US tradition?

ddavitt: It’s almost as if you’re saying all subjects have maths as a background or foundation?

rjjusu: Yes it is, but why can’t math apply there? After all, math is the language of science, and not just the “hard” ones. Don’t forget that RAH ws somewhat interested in the works of Korzebski (sp?) – shows up in Stranger, as well as other places. Language and thinking and acting are all intertwined. Math is a way of sorting that out.

McKevin0: Never have managed to burn a mortgage. Just refinance :-$

DavidWrightSr: That’s pretty typical. Lots of people used to put the paid-out mortgages in a ball at the foot of the stairs.

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi David.

KultsiKN: Hmmm. Interesting — especially as I haven’t read any of yours. Joel.

ddavitt: I don’t know many people in UK who’ve paid their’s off

DavidWrightSr: Back when people actually paid off mortages :-)

ddavitt: Theirs I mean

joelrmpls: Mortgage burning is a USian tradition, at least in my old home town.

rjjusu: Welcome David – I’m trying to convince Jane that almost everything has a mathematical basis, but not sure she is buying it.

ddavitt: Randy, if maths is that important and integral then I see why Heinlein made such an issue of it…but I’m not sure it is

joelrmpls: All of the customs I refer to in the book are real. Not that that would have stopped me if I’d thought of something better.

ddavitt: I think yu’re cheating a bit:-)

AGplusone: Hi, All. Sorry I’m late. Just got back from the LA Times-UCLA book festival. I think I can get Connie Willis to visit (and maybe Joe Haldeman, again)

ddavitt: A book festival is a good place to be

joelrmpls: How so, Jane?

rjjusu: A bit? How so, :-(

ddavitt: And that sounds great.

ddavitt: Just that you’re making it more significant than it is.

ddavitt: Expanding the definition too much perhaps?

AGplusone: [and now afk to open the wine bottle … for 1 min] :-)

ddavitt: It’s maths that’s all.

ddavitt: g,d,rlh

McKevin0: Have some for me, AG

rjjusu: Would you just say of a great piece of literature, that “it’s just words that’s all?”

ddavitt: I’m dry at the moment; rushed in from the shops late and logged on a bare minute before 5.00

ddavitt: No.

rjjusu: QED

ddavitt: But is maths comparable?

joelrmpls: I think the ability to learn math is a filter. It demonstrates a certain kind of intelligence, and it demonstrates it unambiguously.

rjjusu: I think so, but YMMV

ddavitt: I recall a pretty bit about frozen equations in Space family Stone tho

ddavitt: Hang on

AGplusone: It’s plain and simple a screen for logical, problem solving, linear thinking.

McKevin0: Certainly it’s more apparent that there’s some rigor to learning math that may not be as clear in other areas

rjjusu: Very true, Joel. My dad used to teach high school biology and general science. He always said that he wanted to go on in the sciences, but could never get past calculus. In a way, he was filtered out.

ddavitt: the complex logics of matrix algebra, frozen in beautiful arrays

ddavitt: Heinlein made them sound musical

McKevin0: Is that what “not learning by osmosis” means?

DavidWrightSr: Mathematics is nothing but languages, that can sometimes be used to describe real phenomena.

rjjusu: They’re symphonic, if you can but see them.

joelrmpls: Sure. I think that it’s possible to, say, write an evaluation of the effect of the introduction of snowmobiles into the Skolte Same Lapp culture that demonstrates a high order of intelligence, but it’s at least ambiguous whether one’s drawn good conclusions, done research, or is just faking it.

ddavitt: Maybe I’m tone deaf…

rjjusu: Maybe you havn’t had a good teacher, which leads us to …..

DavidWrightSr: Randy. I had the same problem. I was going to be a physics major, but could never keep up with math needed in time.

rjjusu: The topic of the day!

joelrmpls: The chance of one being able to accurate guess, say, a partial area under a curve is pretty close to nil, and when repeated it comes closer. So to speak.

ddavitt: I have sometimes had an inkling; the pleasure of graphing a lovely curve or getting an answer in whole numbers instead of a string of decimals that prove ypo’ve gone wrong

ddavitt: But it’s just one of many subjects at school that gave me that feeling

ddavitt: OK, let’s look at teachers

rjjusu: But the question is, “Was it the subjects or the teachers that really gave you those feelings?”

joelrmpls: Also, remember RAH’s background.

ddavitt: Which ones in Heinlein were the best and why?

ddavitt: We only really have 2 official ones; Dubois and matson

DavidWrightSr: Prof?

KultsiKN: I never had a good teacher who could have explained the worth of math, pertaining to, and explaining its worth in RL situations.

ddavitt: Why so few amongst all those juveniles?

ddavitt: Prof sort off

rjjusu: I think we should consider teachers/teaching in the broader sense. HSS–WT and Space Cadet had a major impact on me when I was but a young’un. From the first I learned to teach myself – as I went to a very small high school. From the second (as well as Starship Trooper) I got a glimpse of the life at the academies and in the military.

rjjusu: Finally Double Star showed how often we can make a major change in our life – if we want to learn and if we have those that can truly assist us in learning. The aspects of teaching that came through those books probably greatly influenced me as to what I do today.

joelrmpls: Yes, but we have a lot of unofficial ones — Kiku, Jubal, Baslim, etc.

ddavitt: Sort of I mean but he was not a teacher originally was he?

ddavitt: Kiku? On the job training of Sergei I guess

DavidWrightSr: He was when Manny knew him

ddavitt: Yes he was then, agreed

DavidWrightSr: We don’t know what he was before being transported (besides a bomb thrower)

ddavitt: But often he became the pupil; can’t see that happening with Dubois

ddavitt: Politician I think

rjjusu: What about in Double Star when Lorenzo has many “teachers” all helping him to learn how to be a Boneforte?

ddavitt: Matson OTOH let Rod tell him what to do on tangoroa; as there he was the novice and Rod the expert

ddavitt: There are lots of guides and mentors but not many with teacher as their profession

ddavitt: Red Planet maybe

joelrmpls: Jane: yup. He’s clearly preparing a possible successor.

DavidWrightSr: I don’t think that you say that for sure about Dubois. We never saw him a situation such as happened with Deacon

ddavitt: But Stoobie left and wasn’t that memorable and Howe was in it for the wrong reasons

ddavitt: Sergei is being groomed

DavidWrightSr: We don’t have that many ‘school’ situations, actually.

ddavitt: He didn’t have the knack of making his pupils like him. On purpose

ddavitt: Or he had it and didn’t use it

AGplusone: Puddin’s father is a professor, but we never see him teach in class, just teaching Puddin’

ddavitt: Forgot him

joelrmpls: And, of course, there’s the Old Man.

joelrmpls: Although his teaching methods do have some limitations.

DavidWrightSr: Also, Baslim had been a teacher at one time at the academy.

ddavitt: Puppet masters you mean?

joelrmpls: Yup.

rjjusu: Consider the tasks of a teacher – to be an information transmitter / transformer, to be a coach, a mentor, a guide. Each aspect changes the student. But in the true sense of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle, the teacher is always changed too. Using that as the benchmark, there are a lot of teachers.

rjjusu: Or are we only going on credentials, which Zak pretty well pegged

ddavitt: Again, not an actual teacher IMO

DenvToday has entered the room.

joelrmpls: In Red Planet, Doc’s trying to be — but nobody’s listening a lot of the time.

DenvToday: Greetings all!

ddavitt: Hi Denv

AGplusone: Hi, Ron.

joelrmpls: I like Jim’s idea that he’s really Lazarus.

rjjusu: Hi, Ron

DenvToday: Hello, hello.

ddavitt: OK, I have to feed L so i will watch but not type for a bit

AGplusone: [Smitty’s Lazarus … not room enough for two Lazaruses in that time line]

McKevin0: You can let L type :-)

ddavitt: hang on, propping bottle in 1 hand

DavidWrightSr: You need voice recognition software, Jane

ddavitt: sort of works but not v well

ddavitt: !:-)

rjjusu: I think we should try to get past the teacher title and look at the teaching individual. I don’t think RAH was that much into putting things into neat little labeled containers.

joelrmpls: I’m fond of Dragon Naturally Speaking, but I don’t use it for this sort of thing.

ddavitt: smitty tore up iou’s; not LL!

KultsiKN: There’s a lot more to teaching than just passing on the data…

AGplusone: [anyone have experience in either of the two Mac software available now for that … ]

rjjusu: undoubtedly

joelrmpls: Smitty’s also far too young.

AGplusone: [Smitty will get it back in favors when he opens Happy Daze’s home for wayward girls]

KultsiKN: The personality of the teachers forms the pupil quite as much as what he/she’s teaching.

joelrmpls: Ooops — phone call. Got to go. Take care, all.

AGplusone: bye

DenvToday: One of my favorites has always been Deacon from Tunnel.

DenvToday: Bye Joel.

AGplusone: Randy: where do we go if we don’t put it in boxes and label it?

ddavitt: bye joel

joelrmpls has left the room.

McKevin0: Gotta go. Wife sending me out to buy drugs, er, fill a prescription.

rjjusu: The problem today, and mentioned in some of RAH’s books, is what happens when the teacher goes outside their area of competency, whether it is as aspect of the information tramsmission function, or the socialization function, or just trying to get students to think. Remember the Family Living teacher in HSS-WT?

DenvToday: lol So long McKevin.

ddavitt: night!

McKevin0 has left the room.

DenvToday: rjj, I don’t. Refresh my memory.

AGplusone: Yes, the one who thought kids should vote on home family government

ddavitt: bedroom for each kid

ddavitt: quinlan’s, 9 kids

DavidWrightSr: and an allowance to teach them the value of money :-)

ddavitt: pie in sky ideas

ddavitt: nice but impractical

ddavitt: for those not well off

AGplusone: but that was her ‘area of specialization’ Randy

rjjusu: David – the categorization process is important. But remember that in one sense, the labeling process is a shortcut specifically so we don’t have to think, much like stereotypes, so we can just react more quickly. However, if we do it unthinkingly, we can end up in worse trouble than if we had taken the time to think.

rjjusu: Or at the wrong time.

DavidWrightSr: Korzybski had a lot to say about that, IIRC

rjjusu: Another thing is that anyone can claim an area of specialization, but that doesn’t mean they are competent in that area. “By their fruits will ye judge them..” :-)

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of Korzybski, what other ‘teachers’ do you think had an influence on RAH and what was their impact on his writings?

DavidWrightSr: It also doesn’t mean that the ‘area of specialization’ is any damn good either.

rjjusu: True. And while specialization is for insects, they do what they do very well. They truly are specialists.

AGplusone: “From my father’s textbook I know the world history course he studied was not detailed (how could it be?) but at least they treated the world as round ; it did not ignore three-fourths of the planet.”

rjjusu: I think that there were several other authors that influenced Heinlein and his “way of thinking” Unfortunately, I still have a huge part of my library down in Las Cruces until the house there sells and we buy a new place up here.

ddavitt: who is that ag?

rjjusu: I think there was an article in THJ about such influences.

ddavitt: dunne,wells..

AGplusone: RAH, in the Expanded Universe essay at 521

rjjusu: That’s the name I was looking for, Jane.

ddavitt: ,

rjjusu: Even one-handed, you’re far ahead of us….

ddavitt: Not when I can’t recognise a Heinlein quotation!

AGplusone: My point, I think, is the areas of ‘specialization’ taught today and recently are unnecessary areas of study for a suitable education.

ddavitt: 2 hands back now. The capital letters return

rjjusu: Suitable education? Defined as….

ddavitt: Need to go back to the 3 R’s?

AGplusone: How bout the other way: try “senior problems,” i.e., how to balance a check book, write a resume, change diapers.

ddavitt: Shouldn’t parents teach those?

KultsiKN: Like ‘non vitae, sed scholae discimus’?

rjjusu: A suitable education could be defined as the education that allows you to survive and flourish in the environment that you will be operating in. The essence of Tunnel in the Sky.

AGplusone: Or tenth grade “health studies,” i.e., how to avoid lice, use condoms, etc.

ddavitt: Don’t need a teaching degree to teach diaper changing:-)

ddavitt: We had that sor of thing at school

rjjusu: Practice makes perfect

ddavitt: Forget the title of the course

rjjusu: Pampers for poopers?

ddavitt: :-)

DenvToday: I remember in Tunnel in the Sky, RAH “threw away” the fact that high school basic ciriculum is far in advance of college ciricula today.

AGplusone: Is ‘drivers’ education’ an appropriate course?

rjjusu: Maybe I should avoid keyboarding comments

ddavitt: we don’t have that; few kids have cars in UK

ddavitt: probably a good thing

AGplusone: He did that in Farmer in the Sky, too, Denv … far in advance. I wanted to attend that school.

rjjusu: And most schools have abandoned it here – they don’t want the liability risk.

ddavitt: as we can drink at 18

DenvToday: Yep, I remember that Dave.

ddavitt: Survival course absolutely impossible now; imagine the lawsuits?

AGplusone: No, that’s ‘driver’s training’ … driver’s ed is merely the rules and watching safety films.

ddavitt: Didn’t have that either

AGplusone: Required course in California. Wastes a whole semester’s class for one class period.

ddavitt: Had cycling proficiency test at age 10

rjjusu: But HSS-WT shows that you can have that school, in your own home, if you can find someone that will work with you. And schools are getting “VERY” risk averse – even driver’s ed is going away in a lot of places.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Alan

rjjusu: Hello alan

SageMerlin: I feel I have been on a journey

SageMerlin: Hello everyone

ddavitt: How so?

SageMerlin: Traffic in Boston is not to be believed

rjjusu: Sentimental or otherwise?

DenvToday: Hello.

AGplusone: Is “typing” a suitable course — outside a vocational school?

SageMerlin: Yes

ddavitt: My husband goes there sometimes; the big Dig you mean?

SageMerlin: I think typing was the most important course I ever took

AGplusone: [other than the good it does keeping football players eligible]

DenvToday: Typing was far and away the most useful thing I learned in high school. That, and how to unhook a girl’s bra one-handed.

ddavitt: Not available then, probably is now in the form of computer studies

SageMerlin: I took a typing course in the seventh grade. Since then, being able to type fluently has lead me through all the steps of my life

AGplusone: But should schools allow it to be taught in lieu of a major academic course in high school?

SageMerlin: Should schools be allowed to teach adding and subtracting

ddavitt: Depends if a school is there to improve your jib chances

DenvToday: David, you’re under the mistaken impression that most public high schools offer major academic courses.

AGplusone: Lot’s of complaints how we don’t even teach world history … because there’s no room.

ddavitt: job

rjjusu: Yes, but it is and important skill to acquire, not an educational thing but it facilitates learning, by giving you increased efficiency in interacting with computers and people on the web. However, it may go the way of many other manual skills, when the appropriate software is developed and it works.

SageMerlin: I hope that never happens

DavidWrightSr: Typing has been the most useful course that I ever took, but I don’t think that it should be done in place of academic courses, but as an elective as it was in my case.

ddavitt: What is a school’s purpose?

ddavitt: To educate or train?

SageMerlin: To keep people out of the work force longer

DavidWrightSr: It has been at least important as learning to read.

ddavitt: To make them useful members of society?

AGplusone: Maybe my impression isn’t major. Maybe my impression is the course work should eliminate the ‘electives’ and send them to business school or vocational school or apprenticeship programs ….

SageMerlin: Bah

rjjusu: Useful

ddavitt: Or to foster a pure love of learning/

AGplusone: To keep kids off the street until they’re eighteen

SageMerlin: I wrote a charter school proposal on exactly that basis

ddavitt: Or to give teachers jobs?

SageMerlin: Actually, now that I think of it, that’s a story worth telling

rjjusu: What is a useful member of society – one that doesn’t make messes, or someone that actually contributes, or what?

ddavitt: ga

DavidWrightSr: With the advent of personal computers, I think typing should be taught in elementary school along with reading.

SageMerlin: Because the charter school proposal was based to some degree on my freading of RAH

ddavitt: One that contributes and doesn’t detract

DenvToday: David, if our public schools had one shred of academic rigor left, I would agree with you. But a typing course is preferable to a course in environmental leftism or other similar twaddle.

rjjusu: I took typing in High School. My kids took it in middle school.

SageMerlin: Wait a minute.;…

SageMerlin: Let’s invite a high school expert into this conversation

AGplusone: “Here are some of the subjects he studied in back-country 19th century schools: Latin, Greek, physics (natural philosophy), French, geometry, algebra, 1st year calculus, bookkeeping, American history, World history, chemistry, geology.”

SageMerlin: My son is online….let’s ask him

ddavitt: Little House books all over again; humbling what they learned in half a year

AGplusone: You son went to an unusual school, Alan … but let’s invite him.

SageMerlin: Duh….I don;t know how…would you do it david

ddavitt: brb

AGplusone: name?

SageMerlin: oocadre with letter o not zero

Featherz Dad has entered the room.

Featherz Dad has left the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Will.

DavidWrightSr: Bye Will

rjjusu: bye Will

AGplusone: Okay, be that way!

OOCadre has entered the room.

rjjusu: Welcome, Cadre!

OOCadre: Hello

SageMerlin: Everyone knows you’re my son so welcome to the room

DenvToday: Nice to meet you.

SageMerlin: We were talking about whether it was useful to teaching typing in high school

rjjusu: Despite being his son, we don’t hold that against you :-)

OOCadre: gee, thanks

AGplusone: [and we’ll make allowances for what you say … bearing in mind that you can only do so well with the handicaps]

OOCadre: ha

AGplusone: Would it have been just as useful to teach it after school … or in junior high?

AGplusone: Back with all the wood shop classes …

rjjusu: Actually, a better question might be, what do you think about the classes you have been / are / will be taking. Do you think they are useful, or have your teachers given you any reason to think that they are useful

OOCadre: well, let me first tell you how I had it

OOCadre: i did have a keyboarding class in middle school

SageMerlin: Ace, bold your type for this session

OOCadre: I think it was one period a day, I am not sure though

ddavitt: Kids in RSG did ‘shop'; woodwork and metalwork were for low achievers in my day; intellectual snobbery?

AGplusone: yes

OOCadre: RSG?

AGplusone: Rocket Ship Galileo

ddavitt: Sorry and hi, Rocket ship

DavidWrightSr: Hey. I took woodwork, mechanical drawing and print shop.

SageMerlin: I took foundry, pattern making, machine shop courses through high school, and loved them

DenvToday: Shop was required when I went to high school in the seventies.

ddavitt: No offence; I don’t think they’re second rate subjects

rjjusu: No doubt – I work on my own cars and have saved thousands of dollars over the years – intellectual snobbery is another name for pay it through the nose

AGplusone: so did I, but not all in high school … I took pattern making and architectural drafting and perspective rendering as well.

ddavitt: But that’s how they were seen. Girl equivalent was cooking and needlework

ddavitt: We didn’t get chance to do technical drwaing or anything like that

SageMerlin: Your loss.

rjjusu: Well, I took the “college prep” courses, but I also took drafting and architectural drawing too. The problem was, my high school was so small, that I had taken all the real courses by the time I was a sophomore.

ddavitt: I thik so too

SAcademy: And I for one, resented that we couldn’t learn those things!!!

SageMerlin: I went to Brooklyn Technical High

SageMerlin: all boys then

SAcademy: Seven bloody years of French, and it was the most useless thing I ever studied.

ddavitt: Me too SA: I was useless at needlework and cooking fairy cakes not vitally important

SageMerlin: Freshman year we took freehand drawing. We have to draw a stepped vee block.

AGplusone: exactly … I was teaching architectural drafting by my senior year … there was no course work I hadn’t done already semesters ago … teacher would put somebody next to me and say: “Ask him questions … he’ll show you.”

SageMerlin: Then, in mechanical drawing we did scaled drawings of the same object. Then in pattern making, we made wood form, cast it in foundry and machined it in machine shop

ddavitt: Let me guess; 7 years and you still couldn’t make a Frencman understand your dinner order?

DenvToday: My grandmother was the only girl in her family to be literate. This was in a small village in Hungary in the early part of this century. She would sneak into the back of the schoolroom and listen as courses were being taught.

SAcademy: The French willfully don’t understand you

rjjusu: But, based upon reading HSSWT, I also studied math on my own, and finished off several classes that our school didn’t offer. I also became a licensed broadcast engineer while I was still in high school, again studying on my own. That’s how I payed for my Bachelor’s degree.

ddavitt: That’s the sort of story children need to be told today; they take education for granted

fgherman has entered the room.

SageMerlin: It took two years to complete this cycle, but by the end of the cycle we understood the entire manufacturing process from start to finish

DenvToday: Jane, I agree.

ddavitt: They are fussy about their language. No one in France said i had a cute accent, which i get all the time here in canada

rjjusu: Welcome, Felicia

ddavitt: Hi again Felicia

DenvToday: We don’t value that which is given to us. We have to earn it. It’s a homily, but it’s true.

fgherman: Hello all

SAcademy: Hello Felicia

ddavitt: Education is a privilege not a right

rjjusu: Jane, the French are a special case

DenvToday: Hi!

fgherman: Hi Ginny

AGplusone: But do they still have what I ‘described’ as a “comprehensive” high school, offering all these different tracks of courses, or have they all be cut … for ‘senior problems’ or ‘enrichment’ courses.

ddavitt: Or it is a right but one that should be appreciated not treated as torture

AGplusone: all been cut

OOCadre: what do you mean by comprehensive highschool?

SageMerlin: He means a college prep program as well as vocational

OOCadre: i ask because the school I go to is descriebed as such

SageMerlin: with cross over

AGplusone: General Track, Business Track, various Vocational Tracks, College Prep or Academic Tracks …

AGplusone: All in the same school …

OOCadre: some schools have such, but they are not split up as such

OOCadre: BRB

rjjusu: Right now, we are facing some of these same issues in engineering – how do we get our students the required background, to be a competent engineer, and do it in the time allowed. More things to cover in electrical engineering, than there was 20 years ago, but the amount of time is the same. What do we cut?

AGplusone: Why not: what do we add to the secondary curriculum that we used to teach in the first two years of college ….

fgherman: Change the amount of time?

AGplusone: They are talking about that out here.

AGplusone: Eliminate all but one month summer’s vacation

DavidWrightSr: Don’t cut. extend the time. If it takes more time to master a specialization , so be it. We don’t quibble about the time it takes to be a doctor or lawyer do (or maybe we should :-) )

SageMerlin: No, I think you are barking up the wrong tree

DenvToday: rjj, I think most EE students enter college with far more computer knowledge than students of 20 years ago. They can start at a higher level in college.

SageMerlin: The problem is that we have re-entered the age of apprenticeship

rjjusu: And, the answer is NOT eliminate all the general studies classes – we don’t need to be graduating more highly trained specialists. But I think you are right. The real answer is that we need more time, but no one wants to hear that – they want to get out and make “the big bucks” and pay off those loans.

ddavitt: I have to go eat; 6.30 for me. brb; do you want to break for 5?

SageMerlin: Really, It takes 12 years and half a million bucks to become medical specialist

SageMerlin: Takes three to make a lawyer

rjjusu: I agree Ron, but computer knowledge is really only a part of what it takes to be an EE.

DenvToday: rjj, college is a different animal than in years past. It now takes the place of what high school used to be.

fgherman: Which is wrong

SageMerlin: Except that was true 30 years ago

OOCadre: well, highschool is taught entirely incorrectly

SageMerlin: I learned more in high school than I did in colletge

fgherman: High school is now what elementary school should be

rjjusu: And that is the problem – we have students who are taking classes that they should have had in high school.

SageMerlin: I had all of the required courses for my Chemm

SageMerlin: Chem E done before I ever got to college

DenvToday: My brother was one of the original computer geeks. He got is EE from Case Institute in 1971.

fgherman: I find it distressing that the concept to learning for its own sake seems to have been abandoned

SageMerlin: I beg to differ

SageMerlin: Its just as it has always been

SAcademy: I had two years of chemistry in HS

fgherman: things seem to be geared towards the job market instead

SageMerlin: we take up what interests us….but that doesn’t and shouldn

SageMerlin: t interest anyone else

SageMerlin: I think the essential problem you are all expressing is the idea that people can be taught

OOCadre: BRB

SageMerlin: they can learn

OOCadre has left the room.

fgherman: People can be taught if they want to learn

rjjusu: When I went to West Point (sorry Ginny), having graduated with a class size of 58 from a small school in rural Missouri, I tested out of drafting, and was placed in advanced calculus, computers, history, english, and chemistry. And this was in the days where if you wanted your own personal computers, you built the thing yourself.

SageMerlin: But you don’t teach someone to be an artist or writer….they are or they aren’t

OOCadre has entered the room.

fgherman: That is most definitely not true

AGplusone: button worked I assume OO …. ?

OOCadre: nah, it won

OOCadre: won’t let me stop useing aim

DavidWrightSr: I think that you can teach a writer or an artist, but that doesn’t mean they have any talent at it.

SageMerlin: Then they aren’t an artist or a writer

rjjusu: You CAN teach someone to be a writer or an artist, in terms of the technical skills. What is harder is to teach them how to be creative and to use those skills.

SageMerlin: They simply are a student of those subjects.

fgherman: I majored in applied music and the college courses I took made a tremendous difference in my musicianship

SageMerlin: Are you a musician

fgherman: I consider myself one

OOCadre: but you have to have the basic skill

SageMerlin: Is that what you do for a living?

SageMerlin: I rest my case

DenvToday: I was an actor for several years. It can’t be taught, not really. You can teach peripheral skills, but the essential “thing” that makes you good is there when you’re 5 years old.

AGplusone: [no, this is an AIm chatroom, not “on” AOL]

fgherman: No, as an avocation.

rjjusu: Does your cat consider you one? That is the real test. :-)

fgherman: Yes, all 5 of them

SageMerlin: No` what counts is whether or not you get paid for it

OOCadre: at my school there are a coulpe of kids in my shop, computer programming, that have been taught everything I have about programming, but they have NO skill at it…

fgherman: And I’m a singer

fgherman: Ask any writer whether or not the study of their craft has made a difference

SageMerlin: Hence my point….wasn’t Robert who wrote once that you can’t make a silk purse out of sow’s ear?

SageMerlin: I am and have been for thirty years…and I never took a course that contributed in any way to my ability to write.

fgherman: But silk is just worm excreta without the craft that goes into it

SageMerlin: A writer I mean

DenvToday: Cadre, it’s like that in most disciplines. Unfortunately.

fgherman: But you’ve talked with other writers?

AGplusone: Depends on what you write, I think … you can learn essay, rhetorical techniques …

SageMerlin: Just to ask them to pass the salt

AGplusone: same way you learn to draft elipses

OOCadre: alan, are you saying that from what you were taught in high school you were able to write??

SageMerlin: I am reminded of what Major Dubois says to his class on their last day before graduation

OOCadre: ((sorry, I can’t seem to get bold to stay on for some reason))

SageMerlin: Yes. I took one course, one semester….and I was on my own after that

AGplusone: But you have to learn to “think” before you can write, or play, or research or design bridges.

fgherman: And when you teach to the test, thinking goes out the window

fgherman: It becomes regurgitation

AGplusone: Or even sell, unless you’re Willie Loman …

SageMerlin: (Who was a lousy salesman)

AGplusone: Yes

DenvToday: David, good point. Craftsmanlike writing for magazines, academic texts, etc can be taught. But no courses will make an RAH or a Poul Anderson.

rjjusu: I think we are starting to debate the difference between the “craftsman,” and the “apprentice.” There are people who have skills, but they don’t have the ability to transform ( or even have) a vision to a final product. But I truly believe that one can always better him/herself through study and practice.

rjjusu: Leonardo did a lot of practice sketches before he did his “real” work. And few, if any writers do a rough draft = final product.

SageMerlin: I do

SageMerlin: I never so much as read something when I am done writing it.

SageMerlin: Of course I do most of my writing under severe deadlines

rjjusu: Then you are an exception.

DenvToday: rjj, absolutely. But it’s the doing it that teaches you. If a course can impel you to write, then it’s a good thing.

SageMerlin: That is education as recruitment

SAcademy: Robert’s motto was: “Do it right the first time.” He never wrote drafts, just made a few changes here and there to sharpen thing up.

fgherman: Better than what they have now

SageMerlin: Ginny, that’s fascinating

rjjusu: And if it works for you, as a writer, so be it. But there are few writers that can’t improve their work by having it edited, even if done by themselves.

fgherman: He didn’t particularly consider himself and “artist” either

SageMerlin: How many people in this room knew that wht SA just said

DenvToday: SAcademy, I’ve read that, and it never ceases to amaze me. It reminds me of the scene from Amadeus.

DenvToday: Merlin, it’s in Expanded Universe.

SageMerlin: I was a newspaperman in my youth….I learned to get it right the first time because there was no second time

SAcademy: I have a friend who wants very badly to write for publication. She’s written a lot of books, but the only one published is one she published herself–vanity publication

DenvToday: It’s both sad and brave. It’s brave of her to soldier on, despite disappointments. It’s sad that she had to use a Vanity Press.

rjjusu: I know that Robert said that, but in the main, I think that situation occurs in one of two cases – either the person is gifted, which Robert arguably was, despite his protests to the contrary, or they do a lot of craft work mentally, and then transfer the finished product to paper, where only tightening is needed. Take your pick.

SAcademy: But she just goes on writing books. And then there is that V. C. Andrews who wrote a lot of books, and posthumously, they’re being published.

fgherman: or a combination of the two

SageMerlin: Remember Charles Dickens. He was paid by the word and what he wrote today would be in print tomorrow

SageMerlin: His books were all first draft products because he wrote most of his books under serialization agreements

rjjusu: True, Felicia. But if you take Joe/Jane Blow and have them write/compose/create, there has to be a time of learning the fundamentals and practicing the skills before they get “good”.

DenvToday: The common wisdom is that “writing is rewriting.” Shows what common wisdom is worth.

AGplusone: Did Robert compose most of the plot, character development in his head before he sat down, and then added other elements, or what, SA?

fgherman: Exactly what I’m trying to say

SAcademy: Robert didn’t do outlines either.

fgherman: Talent=art, Training=craft

SAcademy: He carried it in his head, I think.

fgherman: Unless you’re Mozart, you need both

DavidWrightSr: I recall the comment that when his characters were talking to themselves, then he could write them down.

AGplusone: But did he know in advance he was going to write multiple ‘arcs’ overlapping and reinforcing each other before he started … or …. ???

rjjusu: I seem to remember that Robert did keep notes and information on notecards, which was used for his stories, or did I misremember that?

fgherman: Joel carries his outline in his head, too, unless Eleanor asks him for a written one

SageMerlin: Nabokov wrote his novels on 5 x 7 index cards

SAcademy: No, he kept cards–3×5 file cards with notes, but mostly those were for other stories–he found that ideas flowed unchecked when he was writing.

SageMerlin: He dropped Lolita on his way to the publisher

SageMerlin: Bob Dylan writes all his songs from scratch in one sitting, almost never changes a word

rjjusu: I know that when I used to do programming, I used to keep hundreds/thousands of lines of code in my head, and often would rewrite/recode mentally. Then, when I sat down at the terminal, I would just write code. And if I got in “the zone”, I might do it for hours straight. But there was always some kind of mental preparation involved, which in turn, was based on wha

SAcademy: Hemingway was supposed to write standing on yellow legal pads, and considered 600 words a day a good day’s work

rjjusu: what I had learned/done before.

SageMerlin: Nabokov wrote standing up also, for the same reason. Both men had bad backs.

DenvToday: I’ve dabbled in writing. So far, I’ve had two screenplays optioned. I always carefully outline the script, making copious notes, making sure to write down interesting character details–and it usually goes out the window. I invariably end up with something quite different.

SAcademy: Robert once said to me that he could finish a novel in three or four days if he could stay awake that long.

DenvToday: rjj, ‘being in the zone’ to me is not messing up my checkbook.

AGplusone: “the characters take over” once they develop as Leonard says …

SAcademy: Yes, Robert said that, too

rjjusu: But I also think we are talking about implementing on paper/screens a creative process that goes on in our heads. At some higher level we can learn the skills and the mechanics of a creative process, but to actually engage in that process requires a certain special something that is not always susceptible to being taught.

AGplusone: Alexander Hergensheimer learns a lesson, but Alex is a hardhead and has to learn it over and over and over and over again, with variations …

rjjusu: I wish I had Felicia’s talent in music, someone else may (or may not) wish they were able to do the math I do. In some sense, we are all students, but only if we have a desire to learn and create. Otherwise we are but consumers and regurgitators of facts.

SageMerlin has left the room.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

SageMerlin: Oh, does that hurt the head

SAcademy: Did you hit the escape key?

DenvToday: rjj, you have a talent I’ve often wished I had. I’m not a dunce, but higher mathematics have never come easily to me.

ddavitt: Isn’t this where we came in?

rjjusu: And one other thing that we must consider is that we are fortunate that we have the time and the ability to pursue these intellectual pursuits. There are many people in the world that probably could contribute great things, but they are very busy doing things like figuring out where their next meal is coming from.

rjjusu: We often don’t appreciate the necessary luxury that a good education is.

ddavitt: I’m back for a minute but I’ll have to go again soon for bathtime. Sorry; Thursday chats are much easier as the girls are in bed

SageMerlin: IF that’s the case, as it is now approaching seven here….

ddavitt: In case I don’t get back..I have one query

rjjusu: This chat certainly has been nonstop

rjjusu: Survey says?

SageMerlin: People who do things never worry about eating….that’s the secret

ddavitt: Was Rico’s dad right about the leading a pig way of teaching H and MP?

fgherman: I’m a classic math-phobe. I discovered I can do the work

DenvToday: rjj, good point.

fgherman: I just need the right teacher

ddavitt: I mean, was Dubois scornful, insulting and implying they’d never make it just to inspire them? Is that a good way of doing it?

ddavitt: Seems a bit chancy to me

fgherman: I certainly worked hard watressing to keep food on mine and Joel’s table

rjjusu: To address both Jane and Felicia’s point, it is very evident that different people have different learning styles. Learning best takes place when the teacher’s style is in resonance with the student’s.

rjjusu: One size does NOT fit all, in education.

rjjusu: Unfortunately, administrators think that one economical style does.

fgherman: And, unfortunately, that is what we are getting today

ddavitt: Agreed but Rico had left school hating Dubois

SAcademy: Nowadays I like to learn thing s on my own.

ddavitt: The letter from him was a complete shock

ddavitt: More satisfying SA?

ddavitt: Sense of accomplishment?

SAcademy: Yes. A sense of accomplishment

ddavitt: Trouble is, you have to want to learn to teach yourself and most people don’t have the energy or determination

SAcademy: And, at 85 I am still learning things.

rjjusu: Jane, what Rico left school with was a lack of perspective, but the facts implanted. What he didn’t do was fully assimilate what he had “learned” until he had a context to put it in.

fgherman: And you already know how to be good student.

ddavitt: Never ends i imagine; unless you get stuck in a rut

ddavitt: Yes, i think that’s right…but I don’t like the idea that Dubois thought that was the best way to do it

fgherman: The real reason I became a reference librarian – it’s a legitimate way to be a perpetual student

ddavitt: Matson didn’t mollycoddle them but I think they liked him; eating grannies without salt comments and all

ddavitt: Dubois seemed genuinely unpopular

AGplusone: … and challenging too, Jane.

ddavitt: Rico seems to have classed him as effete; which shows a lack of reasoning power btw

fgherman: So are most DIs

DenvToday: There is a famous actors’ story, it might be apocryphal. The late Sir Ralph Richardson was in his late seventies when a fellow actor found him learning Romeo’s lines. When the actor asked Sir Ralph why on earth he was learning the role of a juvenile, Richardson replied, “You never know when it might come in handy.”

rjjusu: I tell my students that I’m not there to “teach” them, I’m there so that we can both learn. A very different thing. The same reason I became a “professor” – so I can keep on learning. This fall – time to brush up on my Russian by taking some class work to keep in practice. Not that I couldn’t do it on my own, but it is easier if I have others to practice with.

ddavitt: I like that!

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: I think I made it!

AGplusone: ‘lo, Bill.

ddavitt: Look at the society Dubois was teaching in too

SAcademy: I have to leave now–haven’t unpacked from the trip yet. Nite all

ddavitt: Hi Bill

fgherman: Hello Bill

AGplusone: Night Ginny

ddavitt: Great to have you back!

Heinleinsmof: Goodnight, Ginny

fgherman: Good night Ginny.

rjjusu: Hi Bill

DenvToday: Good night SA!

SageMerlin: Good night, ma’am

SAcademy has left the room.

KultsiKN: Nite, Ginny.

rjjusu: Dosvedanya, Ginny!

ddavitt: Dubois was teaching nice kids; who couldn’t conceive of JD’s

AGplusone: Rico was a boy for which everything came easy … no one challenged him.

SageMerlin: Truth to tell, I have to log off myself….got some work to do….later gang

SageMerlin has left the room.

Heinleinsmof: vsyvo xoroshova

ddavitt: They weren’t hating school ready to drop out

ddavitt: Why inspire them in such a way? Why not appeal to their sense of civic esponsibility?

AGplusone: No one challenged his own self-esteme … how could they. Dad was going to get him into Harvard …

ddavitt: They had it, far more than kids today did

AGplusone: esteem

ddavitt: Rico was an exception as he was of a very wealthy family

ddavitt: He signed up, not because of Dubois but because of Carl and Carmen

ddavitt: He didn’t WANT to be MI

AGplusone: He was as sure of himself and the girl whose mother was sure wars never solved anything

AGplusone: as the girl

ddavitt: Just didn’t qualify for anything else

rjjusu: Because adolescents/young adults usually don’t have any civic responsibility – that haven’t had to demonstrate it.

OOCadre: let me cut in for a second…

ddavitt: GA

OOCadre: first, dubois was teaching a no credit class

ddavitt: Don’t have to ask; just leap in and shout loud:-)

OOCadre: if i remember correctly you did not have to take it right?

AGplusone: excellent point

ddavitt: Yes he was.

ddavitt: I’ll check

AGplusone: so no one felt it necessary to work

OOCadre: okay, for him what he was teaching was probably of overiding importance

Heinleinsmof: I believe you had to take it – but it was not pass-fail

rjjusu: I thought that they did have to take it, but you didn’t have to “pass” it.

OOCadre: okay,

ddavitt: That’s it; compulsory but no fails

fgherman: lovely

OOCadre: but the students, and probably the others teachers thought of it as unncesseccarly and something of a joke….

ddavitt: And he signed up because of carl; they did evrything together so when Carl went, he did too

OOCadre: at least that is how it seemed to have been presented to me…

ddavitt: In that society? I don’t agree with that

OOCadre: been

AGplusone: and Rico was more likely than not to ease off … he felt no need to really work … the only way you could make him work was attack what he felt important, his pride …. he had no need to excel otherwise

ddavitt: Rico’s dad had a skewed way of looking at it; proud that he couldn’t vote

ddavitt: e don’t know if that was universal amongst civilians

rjjusu: Yes, a typical Jock attitude. But don’t you think that his teacher knew that?

ddavitt: He gets mad that the course is an undercover recruiting system; it may well be

OOCadre: right, but teaching a class like that year after, year, not being apreciated wears at a teacher allot

AGplusone: Here, here’s a ribbon for winning the dash … insulted, he felt coming in third had been a minor accomplishment but believed DuBois was making fun of him …

ddavitt: Interesting to look at that angle of it

ddavitt: Yes; he was good at annoying Rico

AGplusone: that made him think about it, because he was mad.

Heinleinsmof: Interesting dynamic — part of the population disvalues the franchise (possibly sour grapes) and the other knows it’s doing something important. Not unlike the Academy imparts to its Naval graduates — the real aristocracy. Easy to see why Heinlein connected this up to Wells’ aristocracy of respon

Heinleinsmof: ibility

AGplusone: Nothing else would have impressed him …

ddavitt: Got to go. back in a bit

Heinleinsmof: in New Macchiavelli and Modern Utopia

AGplusone: Isn’t the ‘rich boy’ attitude of ‘easing off to a C average’ so not to get a reputation as a ‘greasy grind’ aka nerd typical of many, not so rich boys?

fgherman: Jockocracy

AGplusone: No, no … he’s a ‘gentleman’s C’ prototype … he knows Daddy will buy him into Harvard

rjjusu: Don’t know, never been a rich boy. I always knew that the only way I was going to get to go to college was on a scholarship or working my way through. No other choices.

fgherman: Kinda like Dubya

AGplusone: that’s true for probably all of us … kinda

rjjusu: Bonehead skull?

fgherman: Speak for yoursel AG

AGplusone: But isn’t the attitude typical? Of high schoolers? Can’t be weird and study …

rjjusu: I think the “typical” Heinlein reader, if such a creature exists, probably is one that recognizes merit and the rewards of hard work and effort.

AGplusone: more important to be liked … have self-esteem … be empowered.

fgherman: One of the hardest lessons I had to learn in graduate school was good enough is okay

Heinleinsmof: I”m not so sure there was a “Heinlein reader” as a type when ST was written.

DenvToday: rjj, I’m impressed by anybody who makes it into a service academy. It was never an option for me–I’ve been myopic since before I was 10.

AGplusone: But what do they concern themselves with teaching today … empowerment, self-esteem …. what’s wrong here?

OOCadre: it is done WRONG

OOCadre: and the basis is totally scewed

Heinleinsmof: (a) those things can’t be taught (though they can be learned)

AGplusone: Why is that?

DenvToday: I’ve often had the conceit that I could have made it into Annapolis if I’d had 20-20 vision…but I’ll never know.

OOCadre: that it is done wrong?

AGplusone: yes

Heinleinsmof: Well, making it IN to Annapolis is not the hard part…

rjjusu: Felicia, a hard lesson to teach the engineering types also. One reason why we should never give up the other areas of study. Economics says, while you might be able to come up with the 100% solution, it will probably cost you 110% of available resources. You have to know when good enough is good enough.

fgherman: It’s tough on us perfectionists

AGplusone: grad school lesson … use minimum effort to get to the point and cut out the non-essentials

DavidWrightSr: I was Civil Air Patrol, AFROTC in college and wanted to be an Air Force Officer the worst way. Knew I couldn’t fly because of my eyes, but was totally shocked to find I couldn’t even be an officer because of my misaligned teeth!

AGplusone: obsessive compulsives go nuts in grad school

fgherman: Tell me about it

Heinleinsmof: And yet they make it through law school

rjjusu: David, you never know when you have to grab the stick with your mouth! :-)

AGplusone: Yes, because they realize they don’t have the time to fool around … time to move on …

Heinleinsmof: You have to have priorities — as someone once said.

rjjusu: That’s because law school IS about shoving a camel through the eye of a needle in a detailed way….

Heinleinsmof: Whereas a truly accomplished lawyer will make the camel WANT to come through the needle’s eye on its own.

rjjusu: in accordance with the rules and their codicils.

rjjusu: And pay the needle for the privilege.

Heinleinsmof: Yes. Priorities again.

AGplusone: But in secondary and primary education … all the non-essentials are lavished on ….

rjjusu: administrators?

AGplusone: not music, not art, but feeling good courses or course elements …

OOCadre: what do you mean by feeling good courses?

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, this costs me by the moment, b ut I wanted to make an appearance if it were possible. Glad to join you; I’ll be checking in periodically until I get settled.

Heinleinsmof: ciao

fgherman: I’m grateful that my daughters’ school has kept up their arts programs

rjjusu: Bill, is your old address still good for THJ?

fgherman: In spite of the number of interpreter the system needs here.

AGplusone: teachers like to be esteemed to … if you’re nasty and critical with your students, they don’t like you and you don’t feel esteemed … and with what you’re paid, you know you’re not esteemed by anyone else.

AGplusone: esteemed too

Heinleinsmof: Yes — the Glendora address is a permanent mailing address for the Journal.

rjjusu: Thanks. I’m behind on issues, so I need to send you cash for last year and this one. Still $20?

AGplusone: So why try? In the words of the guy in Blackboard Jungle. We’re hired to sit on the lid of the garbage can to keep the garbage out of the street until they’re eighteen

rjjusu: A truly sad observation though.

AGplusone: And that was 1950

Heinleinsmof: That must be an out-of-country rate I worked out for you, so let it stand.

rjjusu: What is the current price/year? I’m happy to pay the full freight if that isn’t right.\

fgherman: different generation, different perspective

AGplusone: what’s different today?

DenvToday: Ivy League schools ring in at about 40 grand per year–just for tuition.

rjjusu: More muzzle velocity in the disagreements?

Heinleinsmof: No, that’s fine; it’s $7.50 per issue domestic US; I can eat the extra postage to Canada usually, but overseas I do ask for more. I should probably come up with a standard rate.

fgherman: Generations, like history, are cyclical

Heinleinsmof: $15 per year domestic; $20 overseas

AGplusone: Boethius, eh?

Heinleinsmof: Toynbee?

fgherman: And schools are safer than 10 years ago, statistically

rjjusu: Okay, got it. Although Utah sometimes feels like a different country….

AGplusone: ’tis, ’tis … ask anyone.

Heinleinsmof: Heheh. G’bye all.

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

DenvToday: Bye mof.

OOCadre: well, time to head out, have a good evening all

DenvToday: Cadre, nice seeing you.

rjjusu: Thanks for coming and come back if you want

fgherman: For nstance, my generation would not have wanted to go to the academies

AGplusone: Thanks for coming

OOCadre has left the room.

rjjusu: Your generation? and which one would that be?

fgherman: I’m a boomer, yes I am

AGplusone: no, your generation was washed in the blood and angst of “make love, not war”

fgherman: exactly

rjjusu: Technically, so am I, but it didn’t stop me.

DenvToday: fg, I was always the weird one in my group. I would have killed to qualify for a service academy.

fgherman: My daughters, on the other hand, would be thrilled to go.

DenvToday: Of course, I was a couple of years too young for Vietnam. lol

AGplusone: Why, do they perceive it as a challenging environment academically and personally

fgherman: At ten and 7.5, I don’t think they’ve thought it that far through

AGplusone: their way of standing out from the crowd?

ddavitt: I’m back…

DenvToday: At their age, they probably think the uniforms look cute.

fgherman: If Britney Spears wnet, they’d go

DenvToday: lol

rjjusu: Despite its faults, there are still opportunities for females to rise above the huddled masses yearning to be free of responsibility. My daughter has been debating that or ROTC in her college plans.

ddavitt: No one has mentioned that tourist in space tonight. Very Heinleinian:-)

AGplusone: If Britney Spears went the competition would be fierce all over

ddavitt: maybe we should send her to mars?

ddavitt: :-)

DenvToday: Jane, good point.

rjjusu: I suppose they could use another rover….

fgherman: Send N Sync with her

AGplusone: Next multi-millionaire comes along, we’ll talk him into sending her instead of him.

fgherman: :-)

ddavitt: It feels like something harriman would have loved; sell a seat to a rich man, pay for the flight

AGplusone: Doesn’t it?

AGplusone: Who said the Russians were dumb?

ddavitt: Jim Gifford did a post on sff groups with that quote from HSS about it

fgherman: I’m just jealous of him

ddavitt: That;s what he said!

ddavitt: The idea that a rich man could plunk money down for a ticket..

fgherman: I knew I liked Gif

rjjusu: Well, it is very similar – do what you have to do to accomplish your dreams -both the Russians and the tourist. If I had the cash, I’d do it in a heart beat.

AGplusone: If cash had been enough Harriman would have done it

ddavitt: 20 million is expensive but it depends on what it is as a percentage of all you own

AGplusone: they circumvented him that way tho

AGplusone: they thought

ddavitt: To Mr fates, t’s not much, to me it’s impossible

ddavitt: Gates

fgherman: It’s dinner time here, so good night

ddavitt: I would not become a pauper to do it..so maybe I’m not harriman material

rjjusu: What are we eating?

ddavitt: Night Felicia

fgherman: Slamon

AGplusone: half hour to go …. what’s for dinner, sushi?

fgherman: uh.. salmon

ddavitt: But I would come close to it

AGplusone: slamin’ sushi!

fgherman: cooked

rjjusu: Slammin’ Salmon?

ddavitt: We just had the first barbie of the year

AGplusone: Oh, yuck … destroys the taste.

fgherman: You ate Barbie?

rjjusu: What about Ken?

fgherman: Got any good recipes?

ddavitt: Too many mosquitoes to eat outside tho

AGplusone: So did I yesterday … better Bambi than Barbie

fgherman has left the room.

ddavitt: Don’t take Barbie’s name in vain!!

ddavitt: In this house she is goddess of the pink:-)

AGplusone: I always wished I’d gotten out to the Trailer Park Barbie before they took it down.

rjjusu: Well, as I said in the early part of the chat, it becomes like water – seeking the lowest point. :-)

AGplusone: site

ddavitt: Eleanor has 6 or 7…and one Ken. He is severely over worked;-)

rjjusu: Would that be the Brigham Young Ken?

ddavitt: LOL!

rjjusu: Couldn’t resist.

AGplusone: That boys not on LSD, he’s on LDS!

ddavitt: He looks dishevelled; he is garage sale Ken and someone had given him a strange hair cut

ddavitt: Love the barbie in Toy Story 2

ddavitt: They actually made and marketed her later

AGplusone: so, sadly, did I …

AGplusone: but I still want a Trailer Park Barbie!!!!

ddavitt: But …Eleanor has Astronaut barbie so don’t knock her

ddavitt: Pink jumpsuit and fetching helmet…and stillettos to grip that moon dust

AGplusone: So what of L. Neil Smith do you recommend, Jane? I’ve gotten Pallas, and two others …

ddavitt: Why didn’t NASA want that man to go up?

ddavitt: I still haven’t read one.

rjjusu: Do you remember the scene in Toy Soldiers – taking a golf club to the barbie clones. Classic.

AGplusone: too stuffy ….

jcgsmtop1 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Saw one in the shop but I can’t afford it new

rjjusu: Welcome, Joanne.

ddavitt: Didn’t see that one

ddavitt: Hi Joanne

AGplusone: Figured if somebody else went to the Moon, people might want to go … then they’d have to work

ddavitt: I think we missed each other on the Thursday chat

jcgsmtop1: Hi, everyone … I thought this didn’t start until 8pm central … or is the time different for Sat?

rjjusu: Yes, different for Sat.

ddavitt: It’s 5.00 on Sat to let European people join in

jcgsmtop1: Ah. thanks – 5pm Central?

ddavitt: We get people from UK, Finland and Australia

AGplusone: time different so we can catch Europe and Australia … introduce yourself to the nice lady, Kultsi …

rjjusu: 5pm eastern

jcgsmtop1: So, once again you folks are almost done, right? Grin … I’m late for everything!

AGplusone: getting close to dawn from him I think …

ddavitt: So we are winding down a bit:-(

AGplusone: finish in 20 minutes

rjjusu: or degenerating if you want to use a more precise term.

KultsiKN: Hi, Joanne!

jcgsmtop1: Cool – degeneration can be fun!

jcgsmtop1: Hi, Kultsi – where are you from? I’m from Chicago ..

rjjusu: degenerate degeneration?

ddavitt: Well we’re talking about barbie; you decide a label!

jcgsmtop1: YES! You have a warped sense of humor, Randy … I knew I liked this group!

AGplusone: better to barbie a bambi than a barbie …

ddavitt: Dis generation doesn’t know much…


AGplusone: [you can tell I’ve been reading L. Neil Smith]

KultsiKN: Finland, about 65 k from Helsinki..

jcgsmtop1: Or better to bam a barbie rather barb a bambi?

AGplusone: that’s possibly true too

ddavitt: I’m surprised I can’t find any in the libraries..will keep looking. paperbacks not in the system so they may be there but checked out

rjjusu: Kultsi, now that it is warming up, is Hel sinking?

ddavitt: otherwise i may just turn up and bluff

KultsiKN: lol!

ddavitt: But it is on my birthday weekend so the Sat chat may not be possible

AGplusone: I think Forge of the Elders, Pallas, and Bretta Martyn are still in print. They’re the ones I’ve found available.

jcgsmtop1: Happy birthday

rjjusu: I think all my L. Neil books are still in Las Cruces. I only brought up my Heinlein, EE “Doc” Smith and Eric Frank Russell books when I ccame up here. I think I have the Probability Broach down there.

jcgsmtop1: Randy, I think that was Atlantis that sank …

DavidWrightSr: I just finished Henry Martyn and The Probability Broach. What comes after TPB

KultsiKN: I’m not at all concerned about all the ice on the North Pole melting…

ddavitt: Thank you; May 7 is the date. Hey, maybe it isn’t going to clash; do i have the dates mixed up?

AGplusone: Bretta Martyn is sequel to Henry Martyn …

jcgsmtop1: May 7 is a Monday …

ddavitt: That looks fun from the Amazon summary AG

ddavitt: Yes, so the chat can’t be the Sat before it

AGplusone: Its beginning looks good

ddavitt: Should be OK then

ddavitt: Query: will the Amazon reviews be sufficient to enable a bluff?

AGplusone: I’m told the alternate early US history ones are nearly impossible to find

AGplusone: nope …

rjjusu: I still have a final to give this coming Thursday. After that, time to read for fun again! Whoo-Hoo!

ddavitt: Hmm…I would feel nervous. darn; i WANT to read them….

ddavitt: BTW David, did you know that story of Joel’s is set in the same town as he uses for the Keepers of the Hidden Ways books?

AGplusone: Yeah! read for fun, only reading I do anymore. The hometown?

AGplusone: In North Dakota?

ddavitt: I am a few chapters in and the names started to sound very familiar; nice, different POV, no Wolves of Fenris

ddavitt: Yes, Hardwood

AGplusone: Wasn’t that a relief from fantasy … ?

ddavitt: Arnie Selmo, Jeff Bjerke

ddavitt: I like both

rjjusu: As opposed to knotty pine?

AGplusone: I liked all the characters with the same last name as the retired sheriff

jcgsmtop1: (I was waiting for that, Randy!)

ddavitt: bad boy randy!!:-)

AGplusone: I figured they must run about five to the square mile up there …

rjjusu: At least it wasn’t keyboard quality.

ddavitt: I don’t drink and type :-)

ddavitt: Or if I do I swallow fast…

AGplusone: Take it intravenously, do you, Jane?

rjjusu: Then all you have to worry about is keeping kleenex nearby.

jcgsmtop1: Drinking and typing … that can get you in trouble! Typing under the influence … “be wary of strong drink …”

ddavitt: Hmm…cut out the middle man?

ddavitt: Naah….

ddavitt: No fun that way

rjjusu: middle of the man/woman

ddavitt: OK, I have to finally go for good

jcgsmtop1: It’s better to go for bad … more fun

rjjusu: Your good or ours?

ddavitt: Littlest one is asleep, oldest is in need of bedtime story

AGplusone: miss the bouquet of my Red Mountain plonk, never!

ddavitt: Depends on how much i contribute to the degeneration:-)

rjjusu: Give em a kiss from the extended family.

jcgsmtop1: From what I’ve seen in these few minutes … an admirable contribution!

ddavitt: Red Mountain is a coffee in UK; rip off of Blue mountain i guess

AGplusone: degenerations following us will thank us for all we contribute

ddavitt: ouch!

AGplusone: It’s the Red Mountain …

ddavitt: Thanks for the chat; enjoyed it. See you all on afh or wherever

rjjusu: that calls for a great amount of tribute….

jcgsmtop1: I thought it was the Red Planet?

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: not that great a moment, please …

rjjusu: Well, now that we have no adult supervision, I’m sure we are in trouble….

jcgsmtop1: Is ‘ddavitt’ the adult supervision?

jcgsmtop1: and, Randy, i think you can get in trouble with or without supervision …

rjjusu: Well, the next best thing to being there….

AGplusone: Well, lemme tell you about Joe Haldeman and the bottle of cognac I gave him to thank him …

rjjusu: So I’ve been told.

AGplusone: basically, there were some difficulties with Jerry’s attending.

AGplusone: Joe came in and smoothed troubled waters in that chat very nicely, so the cognac was the payoff.

AGplusone: Jerry decided to give us what the others (not me) deserved … he was a good guest. Remy, VSOP

DavidWrightSr: I read a post somewhere that said the Pournelle interview was somewhat incoherent.

AGplusone: He was complaining that back under AOL where the buffer you can type into is much smaller that it was incoherent. that complaint’s you read about it being incoherent was echoing Jerry.

AGplusone: and it is true … you could only type about 81 characters at a time in that room … which is why we went to these.

AGplusone: Joe sorta smiled Jerry out of the complaints …

jcgsmtop1: Where we can have more than 81 characters present?

DavidWrightSr: Now if we only had automatic logging :-[

AGplusone: which is what got him the bottle yes, you should be about to go about 250 characters at a time here, Joanne

AGplusone: yes … odd they haven’t put it in, isn’t it, Dave

rjjusu: I’m surprised, because it would so easy.

AGplusone: Anywho … ’tis the hour.

jcgsmtop1: Good to see you all again … Dave, I mailed my membership today …

KultsiKN: ’tis the _early_ hour — 3 a.m….

AGplusone: So I got to meet Joe and his wife Gay. Nice people, and maybe we can have a rerun, since he did finish that sequel to Forever War

AGplusone: Soon the sun …

KultsiKN: dst — not so early

rjjusu: I’m looking for the Spider Robinson one, if you could pull it off. Another possibility might be Yoji Kondo, if anyone knows him.

AGplusone: Ginny does … write and ask for his e mail

DavidWrightSr: BTW, David. If there are more old logs around, let me have them and I’ll put them on the web site.

AGplusone: both of them

AGplusone: David I’ve got nearly two years … are you sure you have room?

jcgsmtop1: I’d sure love to see either Spider or Yoji here …

KultsiKN: I like to see Yoji

DavidWrightSr: I still have 40 mb available and Jon said I could put them on our regular site too.

AGplusone: We need somebody in Eastern Canada … Spider’s laptop is a 520 mac and has really minimal RAM

jcgsmtop1: Tell me where – I have friends everywhere …

AGplusone: Oakily doakily … expect them

rjjusu: Dave, do you want to contact Ginny for the Kondo email address, or do you want me to try?

AGplusone: Why don’t you, Randy. She knows you’re a grownup

rjjusu: I think you’d get some argument about that statement.

jcgsmtop1: Randy, if you need any help writing a nice, professional e-mail request, let me know … grin

AGplusone: copy me and oz so she knows you know us … and may recognize your name

rjjusu: Will do.

KultsiKN: folks, I’m off to bed. Nice seeing you guys, Joanne, g’night!

AGplusone: G’nite Kultsi

jcgsmtop1: G’night, Kultsi – nice meeting you

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: About Spider … I think your approach might be to explain how he doesn’t have to screw up his Compuserve already loaded, etc.

AGplusone: It’s either a 520 or a 530 Mac laptop he has

rjjusu: David, I about have the PC newsgroup instructions done. I assume you want me to do more than just the Exploder version, so I’m adding some stuff for Nestscrap as well as some general info on Newsgroups. I should have it to you by Monday or Tuesday. Is that soon enough?

AGplusone: That would help mucho …

AGplusone: Then you can read for “fun” right, Sir?

rjjusu: Okay. I was also going to add some stuff for Deja too, or have you already got that covered?

AGplusone: No, whatever you think will help, we’ll probably use.

AGplusone: Give ‘em as many ways to find us as we can … I need to find someone on linux too … I think OJ can do it, but more the better

rjjusu: Pretty much. I’m writing my final up on Monday and Tuesday, so after that I’m somewhat free, or at least less expensive.

rjjusu: I think the linux browsers are pretty standard. I’ll check one of the boxes at the office on Monday.

AGplusone: What I really need is someone on Linux that has figuered out how to get into this room with this software or something that works.

AGplusone: But that’s another issue … what you have working may be all we need intitially

rjjusu: Well, I could look into it after I finish classes. I was going to convert one of my PCs to a linux box this summer anyway. Maybe I’ll make that part of the project.

AGplusone: I’m going to yawn and say “Good night, folks … ” that might be fun. I’ve got a couple posts that went up in AFH on the subject while you were gone I’ll send you

jcgsmtop1: G’night Dave

AGplusone: ———–\

rjjusu: Okay. I need to run too, want to head down to the bookstore and pick up a couple of books.

DavidWrightSr: I am going to officially close the log.

AGplusone: |

jcgsmtop1: OK, I’ve not seen that one, Dave – what is it?

AGplusone: :::::::poof::::::

AGplusone: my parachute

jcgsmtop1: Grin …

jcgsmtop1: Have a good rest of the weekend, folks.

AGplusone: leave the nice stuff about Jerry in …

rjjusu: A Silver parachute instead of a golden one?

DavidWrightSr: Log offically closed at 8:17 P.M. EDT
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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 26, April 9:00 P.M. EDT Teachers In Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 26, April 9:00 P.M. EDT

Teachers In Heinlein

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
A theme in Heinlein books that maybe doesn’t get discussed as much as it should is education and the people who provide it. Overall of course, the main educator is Heinlein himself. What he put in his books, especially the juveniles, was a tireless repetition of the idea that learning never stops and that only a fool fails to take advantage of the opportunity to learn new skills.

Professor de la Paz exemplifies this. In Moon he set up a whole system of schools with a variety of pupils, including Mannie but he was equally willing to become the student.

‘I started electronics under him, soon was teaching him. So he stopped charging and we went along together until he dug up an engineer willing to daylight or extra money – whereupon we both paid new teacher and Prof tried to stick with me, thumb-fingered and slow, but happy to be stretching his knowledge.”

This attitude reminds me of Uncle Alfred in Time For The Stars; they are expected to study on board the ship to take their minds off the voyage,

“Uncle Alfred tried to sign up for everything, which was impossible, even if he didn’t eat, sleep, nor stand watch. He had never, he told me, had time for all the schooling he wanted and now at last he was going to get it.”

Maybe education is wasted on the young..they take it for granted or resent it, instead of being in awe of its power. Which leads us onto another area…the decline of quality education that, in part, makes a youngster feel that way.

Now, I don’t want to get off track and discuss the education system as such; I think the belief that our children aren’t working as hard as we did stretches back centuries..but Heinlein was definitely concerned that children weren’t getting a solid grounding in the really important subjects. Added to this was a minor theme, exemplified by Zeb’s degree and Clyde Lermer; the man with a degree in a worthless subject who thought that made him better than the hard working, less qualified colonists. To sum it up; pieces of paper and letters after your name are all well and good….but they don’t count for much when the chips are down if they’re not backed up by true intelligence and common sense.

So with that as background, I’d like to look at the teachers in the books and, make no mistake, the problem here is choosing which one as it’s almost impossible to think of a book that doesn’t have some sort of teacher/pupil scenario in it. Which teachers do you remember? Baslim who begged, Dubois who debated, Matson who survived; all maimed physically but still unimpaired in their ability to inspire. Kelly, Hendrix or Sam; who taught Max most? Cas, Pol and Kip all were coasting happily until their fathers kicked them out of their complacency; are parents the best teachers or is it a partnership between parents and trained educators? Can we see a pattern of the pupil surpassing the teacher? Mike and Jubal perhaps? Or is Thorby still a puppet of Baslim, whether he realises it or not? Is the acid test of graduation being able to beat one’s teacher or will a draw suffice?

This discussion can go a lot of different ways; I’ll just make one plea; it may slip off into discussing present day education and nothing else. Now that’s interesting but it’s something that has come up here on afh many times and I’m sure it will again. If possible, I’d like to keep focused on the books and the teachers in them.

[Editor’s note: These posts actually occurred prior to the jumpoff post by Jane Davitt, but I thought it useful to include them]

AGplusone wrote:


>Drop in on our chat group sometime when you’re able. Better, since you are

>likely to know more than just a bit about teaching, e mail Oz, Jane, and Dave

>Wright, and propose a subject theme for one set of meetings related to that

>subject to discuss. It’s been a while (going way back on AOL) since we focused

>and discussed teaching and education seriously and specifically in one of our

>chats, e.g., HSS–WT, Red Planet, the blistering attack in Universe’s essays,

>et al., as well as the laudatory characters portrayed by RAH as ‘teachers,’

>mentors and other educators of the young and not-so-young.



I think this would be an excellent topic; teachers in Heinlein range from the “proper” ones like Matson and Dubois to the less orthodox but equally valuable ones like Baslim. There is also the Centreville crew to look at…well meaning but wrong headed and the two faces of colonial teaching as shown by ‘Stoobie’ and Howe.

ddavitt wrote:

>teachers in Heinlein range from the “proper”

>ones like Matson and Dubois to the less orthodox but equally valuable ones like

>Baslim. There is also the Centreville crew to look at…well meaning but wrong headed

Ah, but remember, in HSSWT, Kip’s Spanish teacher Miss Hernandez, who tutored him in Latin (and his Spanish improved plenty as well). Later in the story, her contribution proved crucial in allowing Kip to talk to Iunio.

Even in Centerville, there were some good teachers.

Mike Dworetsky
Mike Dworetsky wrote:


>Ah, but remember, in HSSWT, Kip’s Spanish teacher Miss Hernandez, who

>tutored him in Latin (and his Spanish improved plenty as well). Later

>in the story, her contribution proved crucial in allowing Kip to talk to



>Even in Centerville, there were some good teachers.



GMTA….I made that same point in a recent email, having given the subject a bit more thought but I couldn’t quite remember her name.

Anyway, hold onto those musings; the next chat is to discuss Teachers In Heinlein and discussion can open (officially;-)) on Sunday.

Which isn’t to say it can’t be discussed before that of course….just makes it easier to collate all the pre meeting posts if they are in a specially marked thread and two chats don’t overlap.

>I’m not sure how academic qualifications are awarded in the USA. In Britain,

>they *used* to be awarded on the basis of independently marked exams – but a

>couple of decades back, some educationalists got it into their pointy heads

>that they should be awarded on the basis of coursework. The upshot was that

>whereas in the past you could have as much fun as you liked with your

>teachers and still get assessed on the basis of your ability, more recently

>you had to rely on them for your qualifications.


>In other words, nowadays if you irritate your teacher, you could wind up

>paying for it for the rest of your life.






>Progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things.

The RAH quote springs to mind: “The differrence between science and the ‘fuzzy stuff’ is that the former requires reason, whereas the latter requires mere scholorship”. One of His lines I have kept close.

Virtually all of non scientific higher education is based on the authority of the speaker, and woe betide any who disagree.

Many of its roots lie in draft / war resistors of the 60’s. And some of its fruits are grading K-12 students on how they “feel” about the subject.

cheers (anyhow)


Just a thought; can anyone think of any significant female teachers? Apart from the one who taught Kip Spanish but she wasn’t really a major character.

And is a mentor the same as a teacher? If not, what’s the difference? If we look at two of the ‘proper’ teachers can we see similarities? Matson has doubts about Rod; and is proved wrong. Rico thinks Dubois dislikes him; and he is proved wrong. Both leave their teachers with feelings of unworthiness and then go on to prove themselves. Is this a failure on the part of their teachers or not? Did Matson’s words of caution do much to help Rod? Did Dubois’ teachings, annoying and deeply insulting as they seemed at the time, have anything to do with Juan enlisting?

Jane Davitt wrote:

:: * * * I’d like to look at the teachers in the

::books and, make no mistake, the problem here is choosing which one

::as it’s almost impossible to think of a book that doesn’t have some

::sort of teacher/pupil scenario in it. Which teachers do you

::remember? Baslim who begged, Dubois who debated, Matson who

::survived; all maimed physically but still unimpaired in their

::ability to inspire. Kelly, Hendrix or Sam; who taught Max most?

::Cas, Pol and Kip all were coasting happily until their fathers

::kicked them out of their complacency; are parents the best teachers

::or is it a partnership between parents and trained educators?

I’ve been too nice to Jane, lately. It’s time to start another fight.

I don’t think any favorable portraits are depicted of “trained educators,” as such, whatever formalities that term may encompass, in any Heinlein story, possibly excepting only the Dean where Maureen decides to educate herself; and he isn’t shown “teaching” in any formal sense, although he evidently amused himself by reading Mo’s doctoral papers. Even little Maureen’s (Puddin’) daddy is never shown in a classroom. Where an individual is shown to be exemplary in actual teaching, it’s either a formally untrained person depicted, or the occasional oddball frustrated by the system, e.g., Mrs. Hernandez, the Latin teacher now forced to teach Spanish because after centuries to the contrary, our “trained educators” have lately decreed that Latin, a dead language, is no longer worthy of being taught to anyone, except, significantly, to themselves in their post-graduate studies at university where they presumably learn to teach. Ever her most effective teaching was something she did in her spare time outside formal classes with Kip. She may have been a disaster teaching Spanish in that classroom, for all we know. I had an ex-Latin teacher, Mrs. Oelrich, in high school, for the two extra years of it I struggled through, for “practicality,” when I finished up with Latin. She taught me, in Southern California, to speak Spanish with an accent “proper” only in Castile. Of course, that may have been her only possible sensible protest at having to teach a language that was “practical.” [She’d let you get away with Mexican pronunciation, she obviously spoke it that way beautifully herself, and I saw her occasionally reduce show-off native-tongue students to near tears with machine-gun bursts using their own accents and idiom.] Or at best, we know nothing about any formal training the individual may have. There is nothing formal shown about Matson’s training, for example: he’s simply an individual, called Doctor, when they don’t dare call him Deacon, with a couple letters after his name he could have gotten by correspondence courses he took over the winters of his career out in the field, or by examination when he retired from active explorations, who was professional successful at the trade he teaches, survival. Dubois is merely a crippled veteran with a cincture, that is, he has little more than a very effective Old Boys Network ensuring people like him, veterans, and only people like him, get jobs teaching the subject he teaches, History and Moral Philosophy. What kind of “formal training” did that require? Self-brain washing? What else, if anything, does he teach? We don’t know. Where did he find time working his way up to Lieutenant Colonel, before losing that arm, to take “formal” teaching courses? Hendrix doesn’t appear to have any formal training in teaching. He teaches his apprentices one way, his Captain another, just as Hank the Blacksmith will teach his apprentices to bend horseshoes his way, and Yorick the Barber of York on Saturday Night Live will teach blood-letting his own way to those indentured to him.

And I disagree with the absurd notion that an examination of what Heinlein obviously considered necessary to be a “teacher” can take place without a careful look at the underlaying precepts of what system or philosophy of education the so-called teacher labors under.

::Can we see a pattern of the pupil surpassing the teacher? Mike and

::Jubal perhaps? Or is Thorby still a puppet of Baslim, whether he

::realises it or not? Is the acid test of graduation being able to

::beat one’s teacher or will a draw suffice?

What should that have to do with anything? I would think Heinlein would answer the question of what objective an education should attain with one word, merely, “learning,” not any certain level of achievement. “Goal orientation” isn’t something measurable by a degree, a certain grade point average, the passing through of a certain minimum number of weeks, months and years of “instruction” at a subject or curriculum, it’s an individual accomplishing his own chosen achievement, unless all formal education is is trade school for a job, somewhere, doing something.

If what the education czars of a society have decided to be the proper goal of their system is that everyone should receive instruction sufficient to award a college degree so that all are able to attain a certain level of productivity in supporting themselves, then they might as well enact legislation awarding the degree as they do in the California Republic in _Friday_, and leave it at that.

Zim is a teacher. Do you seriously think any of the graduates of Camp Currie, and subsequent training elsewhere, can even come close to a draw against him when they let them go on with “Trained Private” in front of their names? They couldn’t even come close to a draw against a hungover Corporal Bronson, er, Bronski.

And if we are not to look at the present education system, as you suggest we not, what difference does it make who comprises the partnership? A partnership between “trained educators” and “parents” are relevant only to an education system involving children, their parents being responsible for their education, and some surrogate directly or indirectly paid by them to educate children on behalf of parents. When Maureen Johnson Smith returns to formal education, what relevance does anything her parents care about the schools she attends, assuming either care, have to anything? My point I suppose is education and being taught doesn’t end with childhood, whenever that ends. And I don’t think Heinlein’s lessons about education and teaching ended there either. Who taught teacher David MacKinnon? What were their names? And what was the name of the school that gave him his post-doctoral course?

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”

>From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

>Just a thought; can anyone think of any significant female teachers?

>Apart from the one who taught Kip Spanish but she wasn’t really a major


Well, there was Mrs. Wicklund from I Will Fear No Evil. Not sure if that was quite what you were looking for. WEG. Also, she was a minor character along the lines of Kip’s Spanish teacher.

Jill and Mike from Stranger alternated between pupil and teacher.

Eunice from I Will Fear No Evil, especially after she “died.”

Mrs. Mayberry out of Time Enough for Love, in the Tale of the Adopted Daughter. She is another relatively secondary character.

It does appear that most of the teachers were male, though.

This post did start another line of thought, though. Did the viewpoint of any story ever shift to a non human character? Not that I can recall.

Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!
LV Poker Player wrote:


>This post did start another line of thought, though. Did the viewpoint of any

>story ever shift to a non human character? Not that I can recall.



We get to see the world through Lummox’s eyes once or twice.


wrote in message news:3ADC3665.AFCDE937@netcom.ca…

>LV Poker Player wrote:



>>This post did start another line of thought, though. Did the viewpoint of any

>>story ever shift to a non human character? Not that I can recall.




>We get to see the world through Lummox’s eyes once or twice.





I recall a brief shift to Willis’s viewpoint in the very opening of the book. Seems that I recall another one there, but I’m not sure.

David Wright

On 2001.04.17 12:26:13,

the amazing


>LV Poker Player wrote:



>>This post did start another line of thought, though. Did the viewpoint of any

>>story ever shift to a non human character? Not that I can recall.



>We get to see the world through Lummox’s eyes once or twice.


Yes, and the shift of PV on the last page is very important to the “feel” of the story.

Cheers, N.

Nollaig MacKenzie


Setiathome: “You have completed more work units than 96.021% of our users.”

wrote in message




>And is a mentor the same as a teacher?

For purposes of the point that I am making here, I am equating the two:

Heinlein often used the device of having a teacher/mentor turn out to be something much more than was apparent initially to either the protagonist or to the reader. I am thinking of:

a) Dubois who Juan thought was just an ordinary veteran who had been fixed up with a soft job teaching a course which didn’t have to be passed. He turned out to be a Lt. Colonel in the M.I.

b) Kip’s father, certainly a key figure in Kip’s eductation, turned out to be someone well known and respected by top scientists and politicians.

c) Baslim, of course, who was more than just a beggar on Jubbulpore, but had also been a high-ranking officer in the guard and had actually been a teacher at one point at the academy.

d) Colonel Neilsen, who had been a Wing Marshal? and put in for reduction so he could head the academy.

e) Sam’s boss, in Puppet Masters, who turned out to be his father.

f) Rufo, who ostensibly was a servant, was really a cultural anthropologist?, and Starr’s grandson!

g) Starr, who turned out to be Empress!

h) Jubal, who at first appears only to be an eccentric writer, is both a Medical Doctor and a Lawyer.

i) Sir Isaac, who although not precisely a mentor, was considered by Don to be somewhat of a father figure and who turned out to be a first rate scientist.

There are probably more than I can remember at the moment. I’m not really sure what purpose, if any, that Heinlein may have had in mind for such situations. To me, these types of situations often provided an additional level of ‘reality’ to the story. There may be, and probably are, much more important reasons for his having done these.

I’m not sure that I have contributed to the main thread here, but all of this came to mind when I started thinking about this subject. So here it is for whatever it is worth.

David Wright
David Wright wrote:


>I’m not sure that I have contributed to the main thread here, but all of

>this came to mind when I started thinking about this subject. So here it is

>for whatever it is worth.



You certainly have; I hadn’t added it all up before but it’s true; a lot of Heinlein characters Aren’t What They Seem. This is a plot tradition going back to fairy tales, where the wizened old crone you help always turns out to be a beautiful witch…

I had a quick look at the Merriam Webster and Mentor was a friend of Odysseus, employed to educate his son, Telemachus. In more general terms, a counsellor or a guide. That sounds like a description of a good teacher to me.

In that case, I’ll stick my neck out and say all the books have an example of this. John from Star Beast is one of the few who doesn’t seem to at first glance but he has the memories and examples of his ancestors to guide him.

[Editor’s note: Mixed in with the regular thread are a number of posts which were not on the direct thread, but I felt that they were applicable]

I’ve just read on an Italia SF Mailing List a message that got me thinking about the real meaning of the title of _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_.

What is it supposed to mean?

In the Italian translation they translated it into “La Luna e’ una severa maestra”, that re-translates back in English into “The Moon is a Severe Teacher”.

But now I see that “Mistress” might mean “teacher” alright, but that it might also mean “lover”… so which is the obviuos meaning of the title to American ears?


http://heinlein.cjb.net – RAH in Italian
I’ve often wondered about that myself. That title was insisted on by the editor who thought it up.

The title it was sold to Putnam under was “The Brass Cannon” which seems more appropriate to me.

Virginia Heinlein

—– Original Message —–

From: “Astyanax12″

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 6:35 PM

Subject: Re: “Harsh Mistress”

>I’ve often wondered about that myself. That title was insisted on by the

>editor who thought it up.


>The title it was sold to Putnam under was “The Brass Cannon” which seems more

>appropriate to me.


>Virginia Heinlein


I haven’t been able to track down the exact quote, but if I am not mistaken, there is a point at which Prof says that Luna is a harsh ‘school’ mistress. At least that was my impression as to the meaning of the title. Again, that could be one of my ‘unconscious assumptions’, among many others, that I have made about RAH’s works.

David Wright
ddavitt wrote:

>ddavitt wrote in article



>>Just a thought; can anyone think of any significant female


>>Apart from the one who taught Kip Spanish but she wasn’t

>really a major



>Didn’t Joe Green in Gulf first meet the woman who wat to

>become his wife snip

Just in case people didn’t scroll down far enough the first time I posted this, I’d like to clarify that I posted this for George Partlow who was unable to get his posts to show on the ng.

David Wright wrote:


>I haven’t been able to track down the exact quote, but if I am not mistaken,

>there is a point at which Prof says that Luna is a harsh ‘school’ mistress.

>At least that was my impression as to the meaning of the title. Again, that

>could be one of my ‘unconscious assumptions’, among many others, that I have

>made about RAH’s works.


>David Wright

I think you’re right David; the idea is that on the moon you learn or you don’t last long. Perhaps ‘mistress’ is an abbreviation of ‘taskmistress’?

>Perhaps ‘mistress’ is an abbreviation of ‘taskmistress’?


I think in American English mistress has less implication of schoolmistress than it does of “woman in a position of authority” — so “governess” would be a closer synonym in American than “teacher.” In the very deep south, in the parts where there is a French influence, a servant would address her employer as “mistress.” In the Theocratic north “mistress” was used the way we use “miss” or “mrs” (= mistress) now — it was the general honorific for a woman. The full form of address is completely obsolete, and even the “Mrs.” abbreviation is becoming obsolete. Correct usage is not even taught any more (i.e., there is no Mrs. Virginia Heinlein; there can only be Virginia Heinlein or Mrs. Robert A. Heinlein)

“BPRAL22169″wrote in message news:20010417215508.01574.00000393@ng-cb1.aol.com…

>>Perhaps ‘mistress’ is an abbreviation of ‘taskmistress’?



>I think in American English mistress has lessimplication of schoolmistress than

>it does of “woman in a position of authority” — so “governess” would be a

>closer synonym in American than “teacher.” In the very deep south, in the

>parts where there is a French influence, a servant would address her employer

>as “mistress.” In the Theocratic north “mistress” was used the way we use

>”miss” or “mrs” (= mistress) now — it was the general honorific for a woman.

>The full form of address is completely obsolete, and even the “Mrs.”

>abbreviation is becoming obsolete. Correct usage is not even taught any more >(i.e., there is no Mrs. Virginia Heinlein; there can only be Virginia Heinlein

>or Mrs. Robert A. Heinlein)



I believe that you are correct in the normal situation. However, for whatever reason, the phrase ‘harsh mistress’ brought up the images of a one-room school house, a matronly lady in a long dress with a ruler in her hand putting a dunce cap on an unruly student and setting him in the corner. I am still fairly sure that somewhere in the book is a use of the phrase, either with the word ‘school’ added or implied by additional words such as ‘lesson’ or something like that.

The word ‘Master’ is definitely used in British English meaning the head of a school or college as in ‘the Master of Balliol’. I don’t know whether or not ‘Mistress’ is ever used in a similar context, although ‘Headmaster’ and ‘Headmistress’ certainly are.

David Wright
[Editor’s note: No further postings from the ‘Harsh Mistress’ thread were added after this’ I wonder if we can make a case for Heinlein getting more depressed about teachers and the constraints under which they laboured ( following the grammatical rule there!)?

Look at RSG, the first of the juveniles. His three lead characters are at a great school;

” I guess it is a pretty progressive school,” Ross agreed. “It’s a mechanical-arts- and science high school and it has more courses in math and science and shop work than most.”

And later Cargraves asks them what kind of high school teaches differential equations.

” It’s a new approach. You have to pass a test, then they give you algebra through quadratics, plane and spherical trigonometry, plane and solid geometry, and plane and solid analytical geometry all in one course, stirred in together. When you finish that course – and you take it as slow or as fast as you like – you go on.”

I’m sure I remember doing differential equations at A level if not earlier but maybe I’m forgetting. However it seems that Heinlein was advocating something quite unusual back in 1947.

What he got, or what he prophesied was Centreville;

“Algebra and plane geometry were all the math our school offered; I went ahead on my own with advanced algebra and solid geometry and trigonometry and might have stopped as far as College Boards were concerned – but math is worse than peanuts.”

The nadir was Zeb’s experiences and his scathing description of the teachers of his country;

“I knew that the stupidest students, the silliest professors, and the worst bull courses are concentrated in schools of education.”

Hang on; what do these schools do? Do they train teachers? Formulate policy? It’s a rather worrying thought.

I think we can assume that Matson and Dubois wouldn’t have gone through such useless teacher training ( of course, they were in different universes which may have helped). Their worlds seemed to have a more positive attitude towards education. Heinlein had stopped producing positive role models (given up in despair probably) by NOTB and was reduced to ridicule and cynical assessments….

I had a few teachers who stood out; I remember four, possibly five out of about 50. The rest were ineffectual, uninspiring and just going through the motions. Or as power hungry as the student in Red Planet suggested. The interesting thing about the juveniles is that even when the teachers are bad, the pupils get by. Cas and Pol don’t even have teachers but they are motivated to succeed, for whatever reasons. Kip is another example. And what about Max? One of the more unusual juveniles because of his poverty and lack of a stable family. His determination saves him. So, are the teachers necessary? Or only necessary for some? Do the ones who succeed in spite of bad teachers turn out better than those with good teachers?

Jane Davitt wrote:

>I wonder if we can make a case for Heinlein getting more depressed about

>teachers and the constraints under which they laboured ( following the

>grammatical rule there!)?


>Look at RSG, the first of the juveniles. His three lead characters are at


>great school;

>” I guess it is a pretty progressive school,” Ross agreed. “It’s a

>mechanical-arts- and science high school and it has more courses in math

>and science and shop work than most.”

>And later Cargraves asks them what kind of high school teaches differential


>” It’s a new approach. You have to pass a test, then they give you algebra

>through quadratics, plane and spherical trigonometry, plane and solid

>geometry, and plane and solid analytical geometry all in one course,

>stirred in together. When you finish that course – and you take it as slow

>or as fast as you like – you go on.”


>I’m sure I remember doing differential equations at A level if not earlier

>but maybe I’m forgetting. However it seems that Heinlein was advocating

>something quite unusual back in 1947.


I’m not altogether certain it was all that unusual. I started school in 1948, in the first grade. A year later I was attending an experimental school conducted by Case-Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. It was a public school devoted to something politically incorrect today–elites intellectually. To get in, little kids were tested for IQ, using what was then the standard testing for children their age, subject of course to all the criticisms laid then and in subsequent years. You had to score genius level to be considered; and they interviewed your parents, as well. Somehow someone made a mistake in administering the test to me and I qualified, my parents were supportive, and I wound up in the school until we moved to California two years later.

Judging from what my subjects in that school were, what the boys in Galileo attended was well within reason. I’d have expected eighth grade kids in this experimental school I attended to be ready, intellectually and scholastically, for about any college that existed.

That was the last I ever experienced or heard of a public advanced achievement school, until recent years when so-called “magnet” schools became fashionably for various reasons, some good, some indifferent, some bad.

>What he got, or what he prophesied was Centreville;

>”Algebra and plane geometry were all the math our school offered; I went

>ahead on my own with advanced algebra and solid geometry and trigonometry

>and might have stopped as far as College Boards were concerned – but math

>is worse than peanuts.”


Somewhere along in the 1950s, what I was led by my own teachers to believe what was fashionable and, more importantly, what was envisioned in my school as a model was the so-called “comprehensive” school, in which different tracks–academic and college preparation, business and general, and vocational, existed on the same campus. I keep wanting to say Connaught or Connelly was the educator behind this theory, but it’s been far to many years for me to remember. You were placed in whatever track your parents desired, assuming your grades so warranted it, and continued until or unless your parents requested a change, or poor grades mandated one. Obviously, if you wanted a change, you dealt with your parents; and if the school’s advisors wanted to change you, they dealt with your parents. It wasn’t like England, for example, because you were not stuck into one track for all time based on examinations taken once at some age level.

Maybe Educators’ or Child Psychologists’ concern over the “stigma” as they call it of a child’s being in one track finally overcame good sense; because I’m not sure they do that any more. OTOH, Los Angeles Trade Technical High School, and Long Beach Polytechnical High School, to name two in my area, were recognized as among the finest of their kind in the land back then. Not all the schools in the LAUSD back then were envisioned as Comprehensive High Schools. Trade Tech was just that and there was another one in the Valley. There were also five high not co-ed schools (four for boys, one for girls) that were disciplinary in nature. All the bad apples were transferred into and kept there–or passed on to more challenging 24-hour/7 days weekly courses of instruction or, rather, confinements, or at age sixteen were bid adieu.

Centerville High didn’t seem to be a comprehensive school to me when I read the novel while I attended my own public high school in the 1950s. It seemed incredibly dumbed down compared to my own school, which admittedly had a fairly high academic standing in what was then a very good public school system. Math subjects available, for example, went far beyond what Kip was offered, and surpassed what he studied on his own, so far as I can tell, although I only went as far in high school as trig and analytical geometry. Others went farther. I dunno, maybe kids taking a general course in my high school got that twaddle about adjustment instead of academic achievement; but I didn’t.

>The nadir was Zeb’s experiences and his scathing description of the

>teachers of his country;

>”I knew that the stupidest students, the silliest professors, and the worst

>bull courses are concentrated in schools of education.”

>Hang on; what do these schools do? Do they train teachers? Formulate

>policy? It’s a rather worrying thought.

I don’t know anything first hand about schools of education. At the university level very few at my university majored in education as a first choice. Most in the late sixties and early seventies who took primary or secondary teaching credentials did so, at least from my major, only after it became evident to them they were not going to be accepted into a decent or an affordable graduate or professional school. Of course, my university (the University of California) wasn’t then intended as a school for training as primary or secondary teachers; that was the job of the State College system–as it was then called, today it’s titled California State University because it also awards advanced degrees, so they say. We simply smile politely when they say it, and do not point out that it was always intended for CSC to award advanced degrees in Education.

>I think we can assume that Matson and Dubois wouldn’t have gone through

>such useless teacher training ( of course, they were in different universes

>which may have helped). Their worlds seemed to have a more positive

>attitude towards education.

I want to tie this thought into something I’ve read in Phillip Owenby’s forthcoming work, adapted from his dissertation, on Heinlein as an educator. It goes back, I think and recall from implications I received briefly and quickly scanning that dissertation, to an attitude our society seems to have lost: the notion that education is a life-long affair for all classes.

“Education,” lectures and deliberate reading, used to occupy a good deal of leisure time, even of those social classes who didn’t have a good deal of time. Radio programs, many of them, were educational. Magazines too.

Heinlein’s early writing, much of it, for *adults* was educational, particularly that which appeared in the slicks immediately after World War II. The magazines that catered to that sort of writing for the general public have largely gone out of business.

The Eye in the corner of our living rooms killed not only those magazines but that attitude I think–almost all of it. Hence, the “babble box” described in SiaSL, and Jubal’s opinion of it.

>Heinlein had stopped producing positive role

>models (given up in despair probably) by NOTB and was reduced to ridicule

>and cynical assessments….

Unless you speak of mentors such as Dr. Baldwin, displaced from teaching at colleges or universities into something else … I wonder what his doctorate was in?

>I had a few teachers who stood out; I remember four, possibly five out of

>about 50. The rest were ineffectual, uninspiring and just going through



I’m a generation before you, or more. I’d never say I had only a few who stood out. Most of the teachers I experienced were excellent and devoted–and far exceeded what I hear of public schools today (I suspect what I hear is about as true to fact as the truth of the recent media focus on increases in teenaged crime–there isn’t an increase–just an “if it bleeds, it leads” attitude in our media); of the others, all but less than a handful, did no harm. I remember most of my teachers with fondness, sadly I fear most of my later ones if they remember me at all remember me as a source of frustration. [“Why doesn’t he study?”]

>Or as power hungry as the student in Red Planet suggested.

Good isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive of power hungry, although the later can detract from effectiveness of the former. I remember a couple department heads who were both. I ran into one who was both power hungry and bad. Her class walked out on her and got her fired less than two months after she began teaching–of course this was not a public but a parochial school at which freedom to terminate employment was greater–and Mother Superior Amard, I.H.M., carried a terrible swift sword–no one, adult or child in that parish or in the school, ever doubted that fact for an instant. I also remember one insane teacher–apparently a slow, sad progression. It took, in the public school she was employed, a while longer to put her where she couldn’t harm further students. They made her a “counselor” for a while until they could retire her.

>The interesting thing about the juveniles is that even when the teachers

>are bad, the pupils get by. Cas and Pol don’t even have teachers but they

>are motivated to succeed, for whatever reasons. Kip is another example.


>what about Max? One of the more unusual juveniles because of his poverty

>and lack of a stable family. His determination saves him. So, are the

>teachers necessary? Or only necessary for some? Do the ones who succeed


>spite of bad teachers turn out better than those with good teachers?

I cannot answer those questions. Heinlein constructed those situations with me in mind, I believe, however. He intended, I believe, and I certainly took away the belief that education, ultimately, was up to me to motivate myself if others couldn’t or wouldn’t motivate, up to me to set my goals if those set by others were too low. And he inspired me with the silly notion that there are a lot of subjects just like math that are “like peanuts,” i.e., you cannot eat just one plate and leave the rest of it there.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
AGplusone wrote:


>I cannot answer those questions. Heinlein constructed those situations with me

>in mind, I believe, however. He intended, I believe, and I certainly took away

>the belief that education, ultimately, was up to me to motivate myself if

>others couldn’t or wouldn’t motivate, up to me to set my goals if those set by

>others were too low. And he inspired me with the silly notion that there are a

>lot of subjects just like math that are “like peanuts,” i.e., you cannot eat

>just one plate and leave the rest of it there.


Learning for learning’s sake, rather than with an eye to exams, career choices and such is a joy but also a luxury in today’s society. We have entirely the wrong way of looking at it; as something to be endured till age 16/18/21 or whenever you finally leave the education system.

The flip side of this is the misguided notion that once you’ve failed at school and left it behind you, you can’t go back and try again.

Like voting, the easy availability of education has rendered it cheap. The cliché of the country children who walked miles to school, in all weathers, to get an education, is after all based on fact. Those children could have stayed away and remained ignorant. They didn’t. How many kids today would put themselves through so much hardship to get educated? And of those that would, what is their motivation? Max wanted to escape, Cas and Pol were bitten by the true love of learning, Peewee was an Elephant’s Child….today’s children probably have an eye on a well paid job with benefits and a company car….

AGplusone wrote:

>It wasn’t like England, for example, because you

>were not stuck into one track for all time based on examinations taken once at

>some age level.


Nitpick – it was possible to switch tracks, if you were good enough – my father did



Progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things. Simon:

>AGplusone wrote:


>>It wasn’t like England, for example, because you

>>were not stuck into one track for all time based on examinations taken

>once at

>>some age level.




>Nitpick – it was possible to switch tracks, if you were good enough – my father did.

Fair enough. My understanding is/was: however, it was a bit easier to do that over here in the 1950s than in England. I’m not sure it was so usual as to be common, but it occurred in goodly numbers.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

CHASGRAFT has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there.

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Quiet tonight!

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

CHASGRAFT: Howdy. Charlie Graft here

fgherman: Hello

ddavitt: We may be a little thin on the ground. Ginny is away and Bill is moving house

fgherman: I’m sure we’ll manage

ddavitt: usually do

fgherman: Joel may be joining us

ddavitt: Great! More the merrier

ddavitt: Tonight we’re looking at teachers in Heinlein.

fgherman: Like in Starship Troopers

CHASGRAFT: Professor Paz is one of my heroes.

ddavitt: My pile of Books That Might Be Useful is getting topheavy next to me; i keep thinking of more to bring in

ddavitt: darn..off to fetch ST

fgherman: I didn’t mean to chase you away

ddavitt: I’m back; library is only a few feet away

CHASGRAFT: I’m bookless; I’m operating from out of town. OTOH, on my normal schedule, I likely could not be here.

ddavitt: Never mind; I think the discussion will be pretty loose

ddavitt: Not much response on afh to the pre meeting posts :-(

fgherman: Most of my SF library is in boxes from our move here…7.5 years ago

ddavitt: So it could go in any direction

fgherman: I only saw it this morning

ddavitt: EEK…I unpacked my books within 2 weeks of emigrating

fgherman: I had a baby within 2 months

ddavitt: i can’t live with them in boxes; double stacked is bad enough

ddavitt: I moved heavily pregnant too…not fun

CHASGRAFT: I did it the easy way — I haven’t moved in 33 years.

fgherman: I couldn’t even bend over to pack

ddavitt: Frustrating not being able to do stuff

fgherman: Amen to that

ddavitt: Since I grew up this ( 4 years) is the longest I’ve been in the same house

ddavitt: We seem to move into wrecks, fix them up and then let someone else enjoy them

fgherman: Next time I move I’m using a match

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: Not too bad emigrating as the new company paid relocation; having removal men come in and pack is luxury

ddavitt: I didn’t have to pack anything, not even empty drawers

fgherman: I had friends pack for us…Lot of karma to pay back

ddavitt: You realise just how much stuff you have…and I threw or gave away loads

ddavitt: Including bookcases…must have been temporaliy insane

ddavitt: Didn’t seem worthwhile taking them . bad move!

fgherman: That’s kind of like throwing away matches to stop smoking

CHASGRAFT has left the room.

ddavitt: Well, they were cheap build yourself ones and not very stable. I decided they would arrive in bits so gave them to friends

fgherman: 2 of ours didn’t quite survive the move

ddavitt: Since we’ve moved to a big house ( Canadian houses are huge compared to UK ones) I have a library for the first time ever. Not big enough but it’s a start

CHASGRAFT has entered the room.

fgherman: It seems odd that as a librarian, my personal library is such a mess

ddavitt: I can’t take over any more of the house tho; the rest are in the basement.

fgherman: I hope you don’t have any flooding down there

ddavitt: Oh are you? I volunteer at our local library

CHASGRAFT: Sorry about that — hit the wrong key.:-\

ddavitt: No; the man before us had his computer down there so we figured it wasn’t damp

fgherman: I thought it might be something I said

ddavitt: No problem!

CHASGRAFT: Parkinson’s Law variation — books expand to take up all possible room.

fgherman: :-)

fgherman: And then some

ddavitt: What sort of libraries do you work in?

fgherman: right now I’m in an advertising firm

ddavitt: I get dibs on any library books I delete which helps to bring in more on a regular basis

fgherman: (Having gone over to the Dark side…)

ddavitt: Ahh…

fgherman: But I started out in a public library

fgherman: And immediately took charge of the sf section

fgherman: :-)

ddavitt: If you have any tips for me on the Heinlein Society that would be great; I’m in charge of the Library section but I’m not experienced really

ddavitt: Apart from vast amounts of time spent in libraries since I could toddle

fgherman: I’ll take a look in my copious free time and see what’s there

ddavitt: Not much yet…I did a post on afh asking people to check out h books to keep them in demand but that’s about all

fgherman: It’s a legitimate way to remain a perpetual student

ddavitt: i know if they’re not borrowed they end up on sale and that’s not good

fgherman: My problem is I don’t need to borrow Heinlein books; I *own* them all.

ddavitt: When babies are all in full time school I plan to work in a library, don’t know why I never went for that from the start

fgherman: Getting the MLS is no piece of cake

ddavitt: So do I but I still went round and borrowed them all…then returned them the next day

fgherman: hmmm.

ddavitt: Have you ever read the Miss Zukas books?

ddavitt: She is a librarian who solves murders

fgherman: Doesn’t sound familiar

ddavitt: By Jo Dereske

fgherman: I’ll look into them.

ddavitt: She is a fascinating character. Much is made of the difference between professional librarians and amateurs

CHASGRAFT: I’ve gotta go move my laundry to the dryer.

ddavitt: Ok, when you get back we’ll start

fgherman: Sounds like a plan

ddavitt: Lucky Ginny is in Bermuda…though we have finally hit spring here now

ddavitt: Still have morning frosts but no more snow

fgherman: You sound even colder than us in Minneapolis

ddavitt: I am near Toronto; is that further north than you?

ddavitt: I have a poor grasp of US geography

fgherman: I don’t think so, but I’d have to check

ddavitt: I was amazed to find out that Maine is north of me

ddavitt: It’s the way is bends on a globe as opposed to a flat map I think

fgherman: We finally have spring here

ddavitt: Our weather is crazy; I put the air conditioning on a night ago; then had the heating on the next day

ddavitt: I have black fingernails as I’ve been planting out flowers

fgherman: I wouldn’t mind being in Bermuda now

ddavitt: It sounds lovely

fgherman: I just got back from Florida

ddavitt: I have been to Florida once, that’s the furthest south I’ve been

CHASGRAFT: I’m in Oklahoma, A/C has been on for a while.

ddavitt: We were near Palm Beach

fgherman: My parents live in Sarasota (on the west coast) so I go once a year

ddavitt: David got sent there on business and Eleanor and I got to go too

ddavitt: Went up to see NASA; fascinating!

fgherman: It’s great in April, not so great in August

CHASGRAFT: I’ve traveled Bahamas, Puerto Rico, and the BVI (British Virgin Islands) quite a bit.

ddavitt: OK, let’s get going then

ddavitt: Sounds nice!

fgherman: ok

ddavitt: Anyone got any thoughts?

ddavitt: Any themes they’d like to kick around?

fgherman: Putting in teachers is a very good way to get the lecture section underway

ddavitt: How do you mean exactly?

CHASGRAFT: The teachers in “Have Space Suit — Will Travel” were hardly role models.

ddavitt: Maybe as an example not to follow?

fgherman: As we all know Bob, there’s a lot of stuff to explain in sf and Heinlein’s books

ddavitt: But they had good intentions, that was the scary bit

CHASGRAFT: The most effective teacher was Baslim. His methods were rough, but the results good.

ddavitt: The kids loved Centreville High; but it was bad for them

CHASGRAFT: (He did teach at the academy before gong to Jubbalpore.)

ddavitt: Baslim was sometimes rough with Thorby but he was good for him…and Thorby still loved him

fgherman: Let’s face it; for most of us the most important people in our lives after our parents are our teachers

ddavitt: Contrast with ST; Rico disliked Dubois a lot

ddavitt: Spend more time with them sometimes

ddavitt: A teacher is of vital importance; yet as parents do we vet them much/ As much as we would a child minder?

fgherman: Even those that serve as a horrible example

ddavitt: There are few bad and nasty teachers; Howe in Red Planet is the only one

fgherman: Most of us don’t have that luxury

ddavitt: Some bad and well intentioned

ddavitt: But we should have more say in it…maybe it’s different now but as a child I remember parents had little power in a school

fgherman: The dynamic was different then.

ddavitt: I volunteered at JK to be aware of what my daughter was doing.

fgherman: Joel and I are a lot more aggressive about our children’s teacher’s than my folks were.

ddavitt: Very rewarding and reassuring…but that option ends when they get older

ddavitt: Have to trust your child to report back to you

fgherman: And to listen to them

ddavitt: In Heinlein, a lot of the kids don’t have teachers

ddavitt: They teach themselves; Kip, Cas, Pol for instance

fgherman: They do have mentors

ddavitt: Was H saying teachers are of secondary importance; it’s the pupil’s attitude?

ddavitt: Yes but it’s ultimately down to them to fail or succeed

CHASGRAFT: A good teacher can fire up the learning ambition.

ddavitt: They had more obstacles

CHASGRAFT: I was always a horrible student — bored in class.

ddavitt: Oh yes. I remember some I had that I slaved for

fgherman: Given the variety of teachers that must have appeared in his life, I think he was showing how a person can react to them all

ddavitt: And some, I did a bare minimum for

fgherman: Me too, to both of those

ddavitt: How many kids would have done what Kip did?

fgherman: And some I still revere

ddavitt: He could have coasted but he slogged instead.

ddavitt: Yes; I wish I could tell the few that meant something how they inspired me but of course, at the time, that’s impossible

fgherman: I got to tell some of mine. It’s a great feeling

ddavitt: I remember my mum saw my old headmaster in town

ddavitt: He said, how is Jane, does she still want to be an astronaut?

ddavitt: :-)

CHASGRAFT: I am one of the few Electronic Technicians at the Postal service who is totally self taught on electronics. You qualify for the job by passing a very comprehensive test.

fgherman: I bet you still do

ddavitt: You don’t relaise that they remember you too…

ddavitt: Yes, I would if I could!

ddavitt: You sound like a Kip!

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi David

fgherman: Hello David


AGplusone: Hi, Jane, Charlie, who’s fgherman? I forgot.

fgherman: I’m reminded of the Sir Isaac Newton quote

ddavitt: We are discussing whether teachers are vital or if the pupil’s attitude is of paramount importance

ddavitt: Felicia

fgherman: Felicia, Joel Rosenberg’s wife

ddavitt: Which one?

AGplusone: Ah, Hi!

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Quot I mean, not wife!!

fgherman: “If I have seen further than others, it is only by standing on the shoulder of giants.”

DenvToday:Greetings all!

AGplusone: To Heinlein, I think attitude was … hi, Ron.

ddavitt: Hi Denv

DenvToday:Howdy howdy

fgherman: Hello

ddavitt: I remember that one now

CHASGRAFT: But I flunked out of electrical engineering school. To much stuff that wasn’t getting hands on the equipment.

ddavitt: Could add to that what Roger Stone said;

fgherman: Heinlein seems to make that point all the time

ddavitt: My sons should know more than I do

fgherman: Exactly

ddavitt: But are we seeing a regression instead of a progression?

ddavitt: Heinlein seemed to get very disillusioned about education as the years went by

fgherman: I don’t think so; we are learning different thins

fgherman: things

CHASGRAFT: Our public education seems to be getting worse.

fgherman: Educational systems

AGplusone: I dunno … I think “more things change the more things are the same”

ddavitt: I still have a vague feeling that the schools are getting a bit Centrevilley

CHASGRAFT: Only a bit?

AGplusone: I was thinking that Masons’ Public School Program was started in 1910s to “save the public schools”

ddavitt: Sure, they have to teach different things; JK has computers for heaven’s sake but still

ddavitt: I wonder if it’s easier than it was

AGplusone: Been saving ‘em now 81 years

CHASGRAFT: We never worried about guns in school. And boys carrying knives was normal.

fgherman: I remember spending a lot of time in 4th grade on handwriting

fgherman: I wouldn’t want my kids doing that

AGplusone: I agree we didn’t “worry” yet there was a boy killed by a gun at a dance just before I started public high school in 56.

ddavitt: So concerned with the kids being happy and not rioting that they forget that teaching them is blood sweat and tears :-)

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Jim

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello

ddavitt: My little girl cried if she has to miss school…when will that change and why does it?

ddavitt: Finally!!

fgherman: And the available labor pool has moved to the private sector

ddavitt: It’s taken you a while to get here Jim

AGplusone: [’twas a zip gun, not an AK47]

fgherman: Hello JIm

ddavitt: But I’m glad to see yo:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: I do not own a watch…

ddavitt: I mean months not minutes

NuclearWasteUSN: Good to be here finally

ddavitt: We are looking at teachers

NuclearWasteUSN: hello fg

fgherman: It’s Felicia

NuclearWasteUSN: yes I read the AFH line

NuclearWasteUSN: OH OK :-)

ddavitt: I’ve been browsing thru the books and there is that huge emphasis on maths

NuclearWasteUSN: RE your question of when do they stop wanting to go to school, I think it depends on the environment..

ddavitt: Was Heinlein just being typical for his time?

ddavitt: Perr pressure/ could be

ddavitt: Peer

ddavitt: Or was it his engineering background?

fgherman: The Military academies were engineering schools with aheavy emphasis on math

NuclearWasteUSN: Having had a math teacher who was an Anapolis grad, I think it may have been more his training

ddavitt: Roger Stone says a man who knows maths can teach himself anything without a teacher

ddavitt: I can’t agree with that 100%

fgherman: He may need a librarian, though. :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL You must know some nukes

ddavitt: Thorby calls maths a game, like chess but more fun

AGplusone: Math is a way of thinking, analytical … geometry doesn’t really teach you anything useful.

ddavitt: How dos that match up?

fgherman: Until you play pool

NuclearWasteUSN: Other than logic

ddavitt: Quite

AGplusone: Unless you’re moving dirt and want to compute how much

ddavitt: Hmm…

ddavitt: Get a spade and start digging

NuclearWasteUSN: That is just applied math ;-)

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello David

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: Hi dave

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello David

AGplusone: solving quadratics the same thing … until you see how it makes you analyze the problem

ddavitt: We are looking at why Heinlein valued maths over the fuzzies

AGplusone: doesn’t improve your spelling at all

ddavitt: I can do a quadratic but I never have in rl

ddavitt: Nor have I used trig

ddavitt: But I’m not an enginneer

AGplusone: I’ve used trig, but I’m one of the few who have worked as a surveyor

DavidWrightSr: Hi folks. My apologies. I am tied up on a study project and won’t be able to attend this evening. Just wanted to check in and make sure someone was keeping the log.

ddavitt: Then, neither is a vast amount of the population

ddavitt: I will Dave

ddavitt: If AG will too as a back up?

AGplusone: from when I arrived, Jane

ddavitt: i may have to call it quits at 10.30

fgherman: The most math I use these days is figuring out the tip on the restaurant bill

ddavitt: Sure; i was here first so i have it all

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. Haave a good evening.

ddavitt: That I get David to do:-)

fgherman: Bye

AGplusone: nite Dave

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

ddavitt: Night Dave

fgherman: Which I can do faster than my math major friends

ddavitt: Sorry; I’m married to a David…popular name around here

NuclearWasteUSN: I think it is based on the Roger Stone statement. I DO tend to agree with RAH about math, but only if you also include reading.

ddavitt: Well, I still have to think as in Canada the price tag isn’t what you pay

ddavitt: Tax is added at the till. Most annoying

ddavitt: I think literacy would have been vital to Heinlein too.

AGplusone: It’s the process of analysis it does teach, problem solving: try this, try that, try another thing …

ddavitt: But that doesn’t get the airtime that maths does

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, a sort of unstated given in the equation, if you will…

ddavitt: Isn’t that logic and philosophy too?

ddavitt: getting fuzzy…

ddavitt: And in Tunnel, survival is an art form, not a science

NuclearWasteUSN: Sure, but most great mathematicians started as philosophers

fgherman: It seems to be the other way around these days

AGplusone: “lemme see if this factors out … ” when I was in first quarter of college a professor talked me out the major I had by telling me the idea was to learn to “think” and either change to Math, Philosophy (i.e., Logic), or English

ddavitt: Really/ then saw the error of their ways?

NuclearWasteUSN: ROFL

AGplusone: so I took the lazy way out and went to English

NuclearWasteUSN: No the math was an offshoot of their pondering

NuclearWasteUSN: Was that really the lazy way out, or did you just think so at the time?

ddavitt: I did maths at A level, up to 18 that is so it’s not sour grapes…I just don’t like the attitude that all else is a waste of time

ddavitt: I will admit that I failed that particular exam too…but I still did it :-)

AGplusone: Actually, the girls around Royce Hall (English Department) had a little something to do with it

fgherman: a-ha

ddavitt: Hmm…education is wasted on the young

AGplusone: I was 25

fgherman: being young is an education

ddavitt: They have much better things to do

NuclearWasteUSN: I do not think that was really what he was saying… More a case of valuing it above the fuzzy subjects.

ddavitt: Cheek!

AGplusone: Exactly … the rhetoric, the argument, the essay writing necessary.

ddavitt: If a nation that ignores its history has no future, why isn’t my history degree important?

DenvToday:Yep, I agree.

NuclearWasteUSN: I would love to do like Hilda or Zeb and be a professional student

ddavitt: maths has done nothing for me in rl.

fgherman: Don’t look at me, I have a music degree

AGplusone: One-eyed man in the Kingdom of the Blind, Jane.

ddavitt: Oh yes. I’d get me on a campus and stay there

fgherman: Or become a librarian

ddavitt: Who is blind? :-)

ddavitt: Well, they have libraries on the campus

ddavitt: I could do both

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Do not shoot me Jane, but I would teach math, and devote my off time to studying some of the fuzzy subjects I neglected the first time

AGplusone: You can look at the arguments between Newman and Huxley and see both really have points, can’t you?

ddavitt: Kip ends up doing mechanical engineering; wonder what Peewee would have majored in?

fgherman: Math has a horrible tendency to creep into real life whether you want it to or not

ddavitt: maybe I just don’t notice it.

NuclearWasteUSN: Art History being one of them.

ddavitt: maths is IMAGINARY for heaven’s sake

ddavitt: Art history. Hmm…

fgherman: Math creeps into art history too: e,g., perspective

NuclearWasteUSN: I never realized it was anything other than basketweaving until I took a survey course. Never appreciated Jubal’s love of sculpture before then either.

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh yes, and composition too!

ddavitt: Pushing it a bit Felicia:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: composition even

AGplusone: The Golden Mean?

ddavitt: I suppose so..I don’t appreciate art at all in an educated way.

DenvToday:I think RAH’s point that in mathematics, either an equation is solved or it isn’t. Same with engineering. Either stresses check out or they don’t. A bridge never stood because the architect and engineer had pull.

fgherman: During the Renaissance they drew actual grids

ddavitt: It’s honest you mean?

NuclearWasteUSN: Maths are not imaginary, they are symbolic, there is a big difference.

DenvToday:It’s honest–and definite.

AGplusone: They do the same thing in architectural drafting …

ddavitt: Trying to remember where it said that. I’m sure it was a Heinlein book

CHASGRAFT: Engineering is large part art.

ddavitt: Beauty in efficiency?

NuclearWasteUSN: True to a point Denv, then Heisenberg bites you, and you run headlong into Plank’s wall.

CHASGRAFT: Electronic work is mostly abstract analysis.

fgherman: like math :-)

DenvToday:As is higher mathematics. But the end result has to be proven–it’s definite.

NuclearWasteUSN: Form follows function, Jane?

ddavitt: I see the attraction of one answer that’s right and that’s it but that’s not very realistic

AGplusone: Writing an essay, an argumentative one, is really the same thing, Ron. You solve an equation so to speak with “IRAC”

DenvToday:Nuclear, true.

ddavitt: Possibly Jim

ddavitt: But in a fuzzy subject, there’s room for more than one POV

NuclearWasteUSN: Just Jim, Denv. :-)

DenvToday:But even with Heisenberg, the end result “probable,” no matter the method used.

DenvToday:Okay Jim :-)

DenvToday:The end result isn’t probably, is what I meant to say.

NuclearWasteUSN: There is room in physics, and abstract maths for more than one point of view.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Tawn

DenvToday:David, excellent point.

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn … talking about education and the emphasis RAH put on Maths

fgherman: I think that it’s harder to grasp math, so it has to be taught more.

TAWN3: Hi all

ddavitt: We are discussing maths in a rational way with no emotion :-)

fgherman: Hello Tawn

AGplusone: “IRAC” = “issue, rule, analysis, conclusion”

ddavitt: Why is it hard? Because it’s not natural

ddavitt: Arguing and debating; now THAT’S natural:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: True Denv, You can state that gas will expand equally, but you can not know where the molecules are and there motions without changing what you are observing, so in the larger scale it works out.

fgherman: For me, because I’m a math-phobe

ddavitt: Logic and precision are alien

jegorman1111 has entered the room.

fgherman: I know that my mind processes information diffrently than many of my friends

AGplusone: Mr. Gorman, welcome

fgherman: Hello

jegorman1111: Thank you, and hello all

ddavitt: I think it’s important to differentiate between arithmatic and mathematics too; Jake in NOTB couldn’t do ‘kitchen maths”

NuclearWasteUSN: ISTR one of his characters, or possibly in an essay, where he stated that people who do not like or understand math generally have had very poor teachers.

ddavitt: Hi there

DenvToday:On a practical level, you can’t argue with a house or a bridge and say it SHOULD stand because you’re a nice person. Either you’ve done the work correctly, or you haven’t.

NuclearWasteUSN: Having tutored at all levels, I find that to be the case.

fgherman: On the other hand, I took to music like a fish to water.


ddavitt: I was told at 10 that I was good at English and so I had to be bad at maths. Took me a long time to overcome that hurdle

ddavitt: I found I loved maths at 13 or so

CHASGRAFT: Yes, but you can (over)design by rules of thumb, have a standing product, and use no math.

AGplusone: On a practical level, you really cannot make a reasoned argument and persuade if you ignore logic or misuse it.

ddavitt: It got too hard for me later on but i did enjoy it, same as I enjoy crosswords

AGplusone: On an emotional level, however, you can …

ddavitt: I just don’t see it as being the be all and end all of education and a key to the world as Heinlein did

DenvToday:David, have you ever listened to anything a politician says? They don’t seem to care about logic or reason–yet they’re successful at persuasion.

NuclearWasteUSN: I think that mastering math can be a great door into the rest of the world though.

fgherman: hear, hear

CHASGRAFT: Some of our building disasters (I refer to the walkways at the Hyatt in Kansas City about 20 years ago) were cause by mathematically designing it with computers too closely.

AGplusone: that is because they push emotionally charged buttons, speak in elipises

ddavitt: It all depends on what you want to do with your life Jim

ddavitt: I don’t think higher maths is vital for a chef for example

ddavitt: basic arithmatic , yes, we all need to be able to do that

NuclearWasteUSN: Notice that I said “can be a great door into the rest of the world” not the only door.

ddavitt: Fair enough

jegorman1111: Most people learn alot more math in school than they ever need in life

fgherman: Perhaps not in the first person, but for the stuff around her, sure

ddavitt: I suppose that goes for a lot of subjects

ddavitt: But learning for learnings sake is good too

NuclearWasteUSN: Part of that is the WAY that most lower level math is taught

ddavitt: Are we lsing it tho?

jegorman1111: use it or lose it

NuclearWasteUSN: You open a book and work 50 similar pre-made problems BLEH

ddavitt: My grandad could do mental arithmatic; I use a calculator

DenvToday:It’s the only training in logic that most people ever get in school.

CHASGRAFT: I did not learn Boolean algebra in school. And that’s the higher math I use the most.

AGplusone: say: “compassionate conservatism” instead of -b + or – root b squared – whatever it was over 2 a c …

ddavitt: I get the answer faster but my brain is lazier

ddavitt: I rememeber that equation!

NuclearWasteUSN: Give the students real life problems and allow them to derive the equation from the situation, then they will see the RL application

ddavitt: plus or minus the square root of

ddavitt: All comes back to me:-)

ddavitt: That sounds sensible so it’ll never catch on Jim

AGplusone: problem is “compassionate conservatism” means whatever the listener perceives it to mean …

ddavitt: What is Boolean logic anyway?

jegorman1111: Don’t you have to learn the pure number part before you can work the word problems?

ddavitt: It gets mentioned in search engine instructions

fgherman: Not with the current test-mentality in US schools today

DenvToday:It’s the logic they teach at Yale. Boolean Boolean.

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL My wife finds me irritating because I can come up with an answer faster than she can type, Jane, That is nothing more than repetition.

CHASGRAFT: Logic principles used in logic circuit (computer) design.

NuclearWasteUSN: jeg

NuclearWasteUSN: why would you have to?

fgherman: Boolean logic = set theory

ddavitt: In the Little House books, they stood up and did problems in their hread, no paper. magic..

NuclearWasteUSN: Why not learn them concurrently.

ddavitt: Surely using your brain is good for it/ it’s a muscle

ddavitt: Of sorts

NuclearWasteUSN: Most people hit the wall of not understanding because they do not understand WHY you do something.

NuclearWasteUSN: It is not enough to tell them to press the “I Believe” button

AGplusone: Whatever works, Jim, works … problem I have with Educators is you’d think they were preaching the ‘One True Faith’ whenever they get into a dispute with each other

ddavitt: I like to think there’s a point there somewhere

CHASGRAFT: A computer designer uses it to find simpler or equivalent circuits are logically equivalent to more complex and expensive ones.

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL My Mother is a school teacher, and we have had some wonderful discussions of just that.

jegorman1111: NW, first thing in solving the word problem is to convert it to an equation

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes…

ddavitt: Going back to Citizen; Thorby got taught stuff that had no relevance at all to his life as a beggar…but Baslim had a plan of course. If he hadn’t left the planet would it have been wasted knowledge, getting him unsatisfied with his life?

NuclearWasteUSN: Ouch, that is a tough one.

jegorman1111: Darnn, I still havn’t read Citizen???

NuclearWasteUSN: I think you have to believe that there is such a thing as wasted knowledge.

ddavitt: I come down on the side of all learning is better than ignorance but..

CHASGRAFT: The basic operation in Boolean are “AND” and “OR”. With millions of permutations.

ddavitt: It’s a good book. I see it as a Kim type plot.

fgherman: AND, OR & NOT

jegorman1111: You could look at it as being prepared for life

AGplusone: Something taught as “flow charts” when I was young

ddavitt: Thanks!

jegorman1111: You never know what knowledge you might need

ddavitt: Very true

NuclearWasteUSN: Since Thorby was obviously able to manipulate that knowledge to his advantage, do you think he would have remained just a beggar?

CHASGRAFT: Truth tables are a basic tool when working with Boolean

ddavitt: You could be on that Millionaire quiz and need to know all sorts of things :-)

jegorman1111: I learned flow charts in college last year

ddavitt: I don’t know. He didn’t seem to have much drive or ambition that wasn’t Baslim fuelled

ddavitt: He seemed to be a puppet the whole way through

NuclearWasteUSN: True, but at that point he was still “in the nest” and able to be comfortable.

ddavitt: I think he would have risen after he was freed but i don’t know how

CHASGRAFT: With his whole personality being Baslim fueled, it is hard to distinguish.

ddavitt: Yes, I suppose so.

NuclearWasteUSN: On the other hand, there is the example of his “learning a new trade” on his own

ddavitt: That’s a theme; people who are almost carbon copies; Lorenzo in Double Star for instance

NuclearWasteUSN: That it was not particularly honorable is another matter

ddavitt: Which trade Jim?

CHASGRAFT: (Conversation with Dr. Maeder — Studying how people live togeher) “This is a science?”

ddavitt: Stealing

NuclearWasteUSN: Pickpocket

ddavitt: Bad move though; so 0 out of 10 for him!

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL

NuclearWasteUSN: Yet Dr. Maeder was portrayed as a very knowledgeable woman

ddavitt: He was infected by then with a maths mind set

AGplusone: In a way for Maeder it is … she explained why Jerry didn’t hand him his head while he was still a fraki

ddavitt: It’s Margaret Mader btw..nit pick

NuclearWasteUSN: We are also overlooking Jubal Harshaw. Not a maths major.

AGplusone: It’s Margaret Mead btw, nitpicker

NuclearWasteUSN: Interested in art, etc, and NOT an engineer

ddavitt: Not a teacher as such…but he does a lot of it. Enthusiastic amateur?

ddavitt: Nope she was the real life one

ddavitt: So there!:-):-)

NuclearWasteUSN: That would be a good way to describe him.

fgherman: Good teachers show us how to learn

fgherman: The best show us how to teach.

NuclearWasteUSN: Come to think of it, Stranger is pretty short on maths representation…

AGplusone: Why are all the good teachers enthusiastic amateurs?

ddavitt: Mike has more important things to do

ddavitt: No; just Jubal

AGplusone: Which goes first, enthusiasm or amateur status?

ddavitt: :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Jubal was an author, and an MD. IIRC

ddavitt: The ‘proper’ teachers were Dubois, Matson…any more memorable ones?

CHASGRAFT: When you do something professionally that’s fun as an amateur, it’s not nearly as much fun anymore.

CHASGRAFT: Jubal was also a lawyer.

NuclearWasteUSN: One moment Jane, trying to remember others

ddavitt: Even the ones in Time For the Stars were just people who knew how to do something; not teachers

NuclearWasteUSN: True, thanks Chas


ddavitt: Ditto for him

AGplusone: Maybe the problem is gaining professional status RAH thought … wading through what is taught in schools of education

AGplusone: Zeb’s paper

ddavitt: I was being a bit sarcastic there. Teaching is different from knowing how to

jegorman1111: De la Paz sounds familiar, what story is he in?

NuclearWasteUSN: He also said something about the gentlemen who drove horse and buggies somewhere as a hobby…


AGplusone: MiaHM

ddavitt: Imparting knowledge requires a different skill than knowing how to do something

jegorman1111: oh

NuclearWasteUSN: Professor Bernardo De La Paz

NuclearWasteUSN: Prof.

ddavitt: Not all French people could teach English people French for instance

NuclearWasteUSN: You must be thinking of my Mother in Law, Jane

ddavitt: Not all explorers could teach geography

fgherman: My best teachers were professionals at what they were teaching. It’s part of what made them excellent

AGplusone: Few French people would deign to do so

NuclearWasteUSN: Her English is not too hot either…

ddavitt: Why is that?

CHASGRAFT: Teaching in definitely a separate skill. I do it as an amateur, teaching railroad airbrake theory and locomotive operation every year.

NuclearWasteUSN: Elle n’est pas une accent Parisienne

ddavitt: You know what I mean…teaching requires an extra skill, over and above knowledge of the subject. Or it should.

NuclearWasteUSN: I agree

AGplusone: Does teaching require a logical mind?

ddavitt: Yet Heinlein slammed the schools of education with some justification

fgherman: Not necessarily

CHASGRAFT: Depends on what you are teaching.

AGplusone: A problem solving mathematically mind?

ddavitt: An open mind I’d say

NuclearWasteUSN: It’s just she has spent 25 years in Texas… Do you have any idea what French with a drawl sounds like??? EEEK!

ddavitt: :-) LOL

AGplusone: Still, are the better teachers logical ones?

CHASGRAFT: There is a teaching gene in my family — two of my uncles were (quite distinguished) college professors.

ddavitt: Not necessarily IMO

jegorman1111: Not as much a logical mind as a lot of patience

ddavitt: Patience, yes.

CHASGRAFT: “Speaks Martian with a bronx accent.”

AGplusone: Given the tolerant ones are the only ones considered

NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t know AG, My mother is short on logic IMHO, yet is a very effective primary grades teacher

NuclearWasteUSN: EXACTLY Chas!

ddavitt: Ability to impress students and keep them respectful but friendly

AGplusone: What’s her attraction, then, to the student, Jim?

CHASGRAFT: Come to think of it, would you count Mike in “Stranger” as a teacher? Teaching Martian?

ddavitt: I guess so.

jegorman1111: I’ve had some teachers that don’t seem bright on anything else but there subject matter

ddavitt: a pioneer in fact!

ddavitt: Wonder if LL ever taught? Must have done at some point..but I bet he wasn’t that good at it

AGplusone: Ethos, Gorman (what the hell’s your first name?)???

jegorman1111: Jonathan

ddavitt: Jonathan?

AGplusone: He teaches the twins

AGplusone: Leeta and her brother

NuclearWasteUSN: She does know how to teach reading, math, and science at that level. She also understands what problems they run into, and knowing the stumbling block at that level is 90% of the battle.

ddavitt: To read, yes, I suppose so

AGplusone: Thank you Jonathan

ddavitt: Fingers getting tired here

jegorman1111: and yours?

ddavitt: Sorry Jonathan. I’m Jane

CHASGRAFT: There are those who claim that a person with teaching skills does not need to know the subject. But I think you have to be someone like Prof to get away with it.

jegorman1111: so many “code names” here

ddavitt: Mine is the same as the one I post with on afh

CHASGRAFT: I would not want to take flying lessons from a non-pilot, though.

jegorman1111: Jane

ddavitt: Do people want to introduce themselves?

CHASGRAFT: But very few pilots can teach well.

jegorman1111: Maybe in a simulation

NuclearWasteUSN: Mine is, with the addition of the USN

AGplusone: I’m David, but there are several of us … “AG” will work.

ddavitt: We can also take a short break as we’ve been going for over an hour

ddavitt: In fact, i may have to leave soon…

AGplusone: Back at 40 past the hour, Jane?

CHASGRAFT: Charlie Graft. Big Charlie on Heinlein forum.

ddavitt: OK

fgherman: Felicia Herman

AGplusone: David Silver

NuclearWasteUSN: Ah, ok, I generally just read over there.

NuclearWasteUSN: Jim Yount

ddavitt: Do you read afh Charlie? I know you from the sff groups of course

fgherman: And I’m afraid I have to call it a night.

CHASGRAFT: Not in the last couple of years.

jegorman1111: I recognize most from the NG

AGplusone: Tell Joel I said hi …

ddavitt: Thanks for coming Felicia!

jegorman1111: But I forget

fgherman: will do. He’s even more tired than I am

AGplusone: was actually reading The Hill and forgot the time

ddavitt: Lauren is teething; I’m tired and it’s 10.30 here

fgherman: Thanks. Good night

AGplusone: [about Dak To]

fgherman has left the room.

jegorman1111: g’ night

jegorman1111: too late

ddavitt: That always happens!

NuclearWasteUSN: Dak????

AGplusone: Wait ’til Jane leaves ….

NuclearWasteUSN: Hmmm

NuclearWasteUSN: Broadbent?

ddavitt: I say I’m going, i go; like a cat:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Which story is that?

AGplusone: Joel was writing a new novel and offered to let some of us read it. It involved Dak To

ddavitt: Double Star

NuclearWasteUSN: Thank you!!!

ddavitt: Yes, has he sent it out yet?

AGplusone: Central Highlands in the late SE Asia games, Jim

jegorman1111: Another I’ve yet to read

jegorman1111: So many

ddavitt: I didn’t tell him my email, just said I’d love to see it

jegorman1111: I’m sure when I finish the last one, I’ll wish there where alot more

NuclearWasteUSN: I am ashamed to admit that I have not read any of Joel’s work yet.

AGplusone: I read it. It’s good. Just some technical criticisms I made

ddavitt: Oh you will!

ddavitt: I want it!!

AGplusone: Great story

ddavitt: Did you email Joel after the chat?

AGplusone: Yes.

ddavitt: I will do that then.

ddavitt: He may live to regret the offer :-)

AGplusone: You’ll like the characters … he may … and the story.

NuclearWasteUSN: Grr I will not have access to the used book store until the fourth

ddavitt: Did you get to read any besides the Guardian books?

ddavitt: I still haven’t got any Smith books yet.

AGplusone: I’ve bought a couple more … including one of the Jewish ones

ddavitt: Can’t find them in library or used stores

ddavitt: Not For Glory?

AGplusone: I’ve got one … and two more lined up, and will drive to the Valley tomorrow …and get one

AGplusone: Pallas and two others.

AGplusone: I think Not For Glory might be it

ddavitt: I will keep trying. But it is around my birthday so I may not be around for the sat chat

jegorman1111: Happy Birthday!

NuclearWasteUSN: B&N then?

AGplusone: Smith is interesting … lots of rhetorical characters

ddavitt: OK, i will regretfully have to go as Im dead on my feet

AGplusone: B&N might have some

NuclearWasteUSN: Who would definitely have some?

NuclearWasteUSN: It is a 2.5 hour drive to B&N from here

ddavitt: Few thoughts to leave you with; does the society govern the teachers? Or do they make their own rules? Would Centreville be possible in the ST universe for instance?

AGplusone: dunno …. bookfinders usually works

NuclearWasteUSN: D’oh

ddavitt: Would the survival course be unthinkable in most of the other juvenile timelines?

NuclearWasteUSN: Thank you David. Next time hit me with a brick though

AGplusone: sorry …

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL

ddavitt: See you on Saturday.

jegorman1111: The teachers mold the future

NuclearWasteUSN: Have fun :-)

jegorman1111: See ya’

CHASGRAFT: Ideally (and we have gotten far away from this) by the parents or the student to teach what the student wants to learn or what the parents want the student to be taught.

AGplusone: we still have a little used book store up in the SFV that gets me by

ddavitt: I’ve saved to here if whoever is last out can also save that would be great

NuclearWasteUSN: Do you think so Jonathon?

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: Okay, Jane, will do

NuclearWasteUSN: Exceptional teachers may, but most I see as clinging fearfully to what has already been

AGplusone: I think teachers have it tough, standing on the center stripe …

AGplusone: problem is the school board is always a stepping stone for budding politicians and demagogues

NuclearWasteUSN: I will say most of them WORK

jegorman1111: Yes, I consider students to be “young skulls full of mush” and the teachers can have a huge influence on them.

CHASGRAFT: I’ve always thought that survival course would never be allowed. (Tunnel in the Sky.) What was that teacher’s name anyway?

AGplusone: probably there’s a post-combat stress disorder for teachers in the new psych manuals

CHASGRAFT: Dean Matson, that’s it.

AGplusone: And he had his problems with the school board, didn’t he?

AGplusone: Arguments of cutting back on the course, make it easier …. etc

jegorman1111: Matson ends up marrying Rod’s sister. Are there any RAH books where someone doesn’t get married?

NuclearWasteUSN: Charlie, how about in Starship Troopers? Would work well there…

CHASGRAFT: Red Planet?

NuclearWasteUSN: Double Star

AGplusone: Bonforte marries “Curly Top”

NuclearWasteUSN: Have Spacesuit, Will Travel…

NuclearWasteUSN: Ack OK

AGplusone: off-stage of course, between living it and writing it

CHASGRAFT: I think solo survival and combat are different disciplines.

AGplusone: It’s a shop course, Charlie

jegorman1111: OK, so there are, ( I haven’t read those), it just seems like most of the main chars. ask someone to marry after meeting them yesterday.

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, they are, but once the war is over, and colonization can begin again, wouldn’t solo survival be useful?

AGplusone: or an athletic one, practice football, then play the game

jegorman1111: Marriage and slide rules, both common

CHASGRAFT: Both much less common than they used to be….

NuclearWasteUSN: Jonathon, getting married that fast is not unheard of. ;-) Ask my wife.

AGplusone: Helen says that her privates took the course (just as she did), and encourages Carolyn to buck for a commission

AGplusone: Or mine

AGplusone: Came home, got married and started college all in four months

CHASGRAFT: The classic is Zeb and Deety.

jegorman1111: My wife went home and told her mother we would marry after our first date.

NuclearWasteUSN: The second time I talked to Millie’s mother the conversation went “Hello, Jim, this is Irene. Nice to speak to you again, I was just wondering why I was not invited to the wedding…”

jegorman1111: I wonder if Robert and Ginny married that fast, and with that low level of ceramony.

AGplusone: LOL!

NuclearWasteUSN: I said “Millie, your Mother is on the phone…”

AGplusone: Once Robert was free of the one-year interlocutory decree

jegorman1111: Book characters seem to rush down to the Justice of the Peace and sign a contract.

AGplusone: I think it went pretty much like the way Dan Davis marries in Door Into Summer

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, but I do not think that is all that uncommon Jonathon

NuclearWasteUSN: Was that the jump over a broom ceremony?

AGplusone: … when Ricki shows up from sleep with Pete.

jegorman1111: No, I’m sure it happens all the time

CHASGRAFT: I liked the marriage options in “Puppet Masters”, “Permanent or term? Binding, Mutal consent, or either party?” (OWTTE)

AGplusone: They had those in Beyond This Horizon and implied the same in Friday, Charlie

NuclearWasteUSN: That would make more sense in most cases Charlie

AGplusone: It would a lot better than musical chairs we have today

AGplusone: ‘serial pologamy’

NuclearWasteUSN: My wife has promised never to divorce me. :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: She will kill me instead.


AGplusone: 37 years and counting

CHASGRAFT: Indirectly in “horizon” but it was stated as part of the license purchase in “Masters”. I don’t recall details of marriage types in “Friday”.

AGplusone: no, that’s wrong … 35 years

jegorman1111: Which book was it where the guy got on a computer term, and announced he is now married, and that was it.

NuclearWasteUSN: 1 year 3 months and 7 days :-)

NuclearWasteUSN: Just seems longer, David?

AGplusone: When Friday meets the other AP on the trip to Seattle he mentions it

jegorman1111: They did it right after breakfast as I recall

AGplusone: The one with the phony photo of wife and kid

AGplusone: 35 … 37 … what’s the difference?

jegorman1111: I’ve got to go, the LOML is calling.

CHASGRAFT: Alfred Bester mention getting marriages and divorces from vending machines in “The Flowered Thundermug”.

NuclearWasteUSN: LOML?

jegorman1111: Good night all

NuclearWasteUSN: Good night

jegorman1111: Love of my life

AGplusone: give our regards to your spousal overlard unit, Jon

AGplusone: lord!

jegorman1111: Ha

jegorman1111 has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: That may qualify as one of the funniest typos yet

AGplusone: I love that title … Flowered Thundermug …

NuclearWasteUSN: I will now bow down to the Tai Po master

AGplusone: could be … better than calling Oz, Ox

NuclearWasteUSN: Did you really?

AGplusone: several times

NuclearWasteUSN: At least z and x are next to each other

CHASGRAFT: Have you read the story? It great but little known.

NuclearWasteUSN: No, who is the author?

AGplusone: Tawn and Ron are quiet …. ::::::hello:::::::waving::::: never read it, but the title is great

CHASGRAFT: Flowered Thundermug Alfred Bester.

TAWN3: I’m here, been back a short while, just eavesdropping

AGplusone: wonder how many have ever seen a thundermug, or used one

TAWN3: What is a thundermug?

AGplusone: back before indoor plumbing, Tawn, shall I go on …

TAWN3: Canopee?

AGplusone: Could

TAWN3: Oh wait, that goes over the bed…..

AGplusone: under the bed sometimes

NuclearWasteUSN: *rimshot*

TAWN3: :-P

AGplusone: And by God, some of ‘em were flowered that I’ve seen

AGplusone: grandma had them in all the kid’s rooms when I visited as a small boy

NuclearWasteUSN: http://moshkow.mslu.unibel.by/Library/koi/BESTER/vase.txt

NuclearWasteUSN: seems to have the text there

AGplusone: And she had indoor plumbing … ten bedrooms and one bathroom

NuclearWasteUSN: Did you have sisters?

rjjusu has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello RJ

rjjusu: Howdy, I got here just in time to see everyone leave

AGplusone: omigod, a Kallikak-Jukes story!

AGplusone: Hi, Randy, how goes it. We’re talking about thundermugs

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Great, isn’t it?

rjjusu: Well, I just got back in from my office at the University, then spent the last 20 minutes getting a recalcitrant laptop to work with me.

rjjusu: I could really use a thundering mug of something!

NuclearWasteUSN: Did you have to offer it a better benefits package?

jcgsmtop1 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I may have read it, years and years ago

rjjusu: I threatened it with a denial of tenure recommendation. That did the trick.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello JC

jcgsmtop1: Wow – I found you folks! I’m Joanne, from Chicago

rjjusu: Welcome, Joanne!

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening Joanne, I am Jim.

TAWN3: I have to leave and get some work done. Nice seeing everybody.

jcgsmtop1: Hi, Jim. I’ve been trying to use the link Bill Patterson gave me, and it didn’t work. I’ve been playing detective for awhile!

jcgsmtop1: Was it something I said, Tawn?

jcgsmtop1: Grin


TAWN3: Wish I had more time.

TAWN3: Next time.

rjjusu: Some people just feel like they have to be responsible

NuclearWasteUSN: Good night

TAWN3: Bye

TAWN3 has left the room.

AGplusone has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html is the link I use

rjjusu: Dropping like flies!

AGplusone has entered the room.

jcgsmtop1: I almost said that, RJ!

NuclearWasteUSN: Just hit the chat button

AGplusone: Is it working now?

NuclearWasteUSN: Welcome back David

rjjusu: Yep!

jcgsmtop1: OK – thanks … I’ll try that …

AGplusone: I got booted for four minutes

AGplusone: from “LOL Great, isn’t it?”

rjjusu: You’ll have to watch where you park

NuclearWasteUSN: It was your apparent pleasure over a Jukes’ Kallikak story

AGplusone: So if somebody e mails me the gap I can patch it in to what I’ll send Dave Wright

rjjusu: How are you doing these days, Jim?

AGplusone: I think so!

NuclearWasteUSN: Not bad at all thank, how are things out your way?

NuclearWasteUSN: I can paste it all to you in an email David?

rjjusu: Pretty good, now that the sun has thawed out from the winter chill…

jcgsmtop1: Jim – thanks – I just checked your link and bookmarked the page.

NuclearWasteUSN: Grrr

NuclearWasteUSN: That one works for me every time. :-)

jcgsmtop1: Consistency!

rjjusu: How was the chat? Did you use up all the topics or is there still something to discuss on Saturday?

NuclearWasteUSN: Something I am not noted for, that is why I sent you to that site instead of mine ;-)

NuclearWasteUSN: There is more on Sat

jcgsmtop1: What’s your site, Jim?

NuclearWasteUSN: Does society shape teachers, or do teachers shape society…

rjjusu: yes

rjjusu: next question

NuclearWasteUSN: Oi, just a moment.

AGplusone: Hi, jcgsmtop1 ….

jcgsmtop1: Interesting question – I was just on the phone with a good friend who’s a teacher in a small village in Alaska

jcgsmtop1: Hi, AG – I’m Joanne, from Chicago

AGplusone: A pleasure!

NuclearWasteUSN: ddavitt: Few thoughts to leave you with; does the society govern the teachers? Or do they make their own rules? Would Centrevuille be possible in the ST universe for instance?

AGplusone: Librarian?

jcgsmtop1: Me?

AGplusone:trying to remember where I saw a post I think of yours

NuclearWasteUSN:And would solo survival a la Tunnel be acceptable in other RAH timelines?

rjjusu:Not sure I follow the essence of that last question, Jim.

AGplusone:Chicago’s a nice town. Grandma lived right up the road in Kenosha

jcgsmtop1:I didn’t quite follow that question either, Jim

jcgsmtop1:Yes, it is AG – I love everything about it but the weather!


AGplusone:I’m David

rjjusu:Are you implying that solo survival is less desirable than group survival?

jcgsmtop1:Hi, David

NuclearWasteUSN:The Solo Survival course Rod et al took from Matson, and were lost on, would that type of course work be acceptable in say Red Planet?

jcgsmtop1:Group survival is kinda critical to solo survival, isn’t it?

NuclearWasteUSN:Sure it is, and you might bring that up Saturday, but the course RAH wrote about was Solo Survival.

rjjusu:I think a more fundamental question might be are there certain things that shouldn’t be taught/learned? That broadens the question considerably.

NuclearWasteUSN:It wasn’t MY idea

rjjusu:Think of Mike and his approach to teaching.

AGplusone:tell us more … still got 50 minutes

NuclearWasteUSN:Good question Randy, I can’t even agree with myself enough to formulate a response.

CHASGRAFT:Who determines what should or should not be taught or learned? Censorship is too much power for anybody (else).

AGplusone:Mike was teaching heresy

jcgsmtop1:We each decide what we want to learn, and pursue it as we choose

AGplusone:almost hemlock time

rjjusu:He operated on the principle that to learn something implied a certain level of commeasurate responsibility being acquired in the learning process. Of course, maybe that only works with martian subjects ….

jcgsmtop1:It’ll take me a bit to understand everyone’s shorthand! Hemlock time?

CHASGRAFT:Good for him. And the Alexandria library was burned because it might not totally support the current religion.

AGplusone:reference to what they gave Socrates for corrupting the young

NuclearWasteUSN:I would not like some of my neighbors to know how the best method for cooking me, but I am dead set against censorship.

jcgsmtop1:Got it. (and I knew that … groan!)

rjjusu:With Crisco and capers?


jcgsmtop1:I like teriyaki sauce …

NuclearWasteUSN:I would think a pit BBQ, I am a big guy

CHASGRAFT:Slow cooked in a large smoker.

AGplusone:Just a pit with large hot stones, covered with bannana leaves

jcgsmtop1:Hawaiian luau?

jcgsmtop1:I’m getting hungry …

AGplusone:I did a baby pig that way once … great fun and great eating

jcgsmtop1:For everyone but the pig … grin

NuclearWasteUSN:I keep flashing on Jubal saying Mike always did need salt…


CHASGRAFT:Unfortunately, you can’t supress knowledge of cooking people without also supressing knowledge of cooking.

rjjusu:Also, I suppose we should throw in some concepts from a couple of other stories. For instance, in Methusaleh’s children, the short-timers wanted to “learn” the secret of the long-lifers, and were bound to do it, no matter what. Funny thing is, they learned what wasn’t there, but was.

NuclearWasteUSN:Had a pastor friend from Tonga, he did a nice Luau each Spring

AGplusone:covered with sand about two feet deep … could poke your finger through the piggie

NuclearWasteUSN:With enough research anything is possible?

CHASGRAFT:Maybe not the results you wanted, but results.

AGplusone:Stop by the beach next time you’re out here, Jim. We’ll do a long pig.

NuclearWasteUSN:I would agree with that, Charlie.

jcgsmtop1:RJ, that makes me think of “One Tin Soldier” – a song from years ago about one tribe or village that kept trying to find the secret/buried treasure of another village … and after they killed everyone, they found the treasure: “Peace on Earth”

NuclearWasteUSN:Thanks, David, but I think I will stick to beef…

rjjusu:Another thing to consider is the information that Lazarus passed on to the “group” when he visited his original family. Lazarus was “teaching” important things – future history, but apparently only Maureen was smart enough, or more correctly, a good enough student, to learn.


rjjusu: And in the doorway to tomorrow, we have someone teaching themselves. Lots of things to consider.

NuclearWasteUSN: Door Into Summer, I think you mean.

rjjusu: Right. I’ll blame it on the rented fingers….

NuclearWasteUSN: Does Dan actually teach himself, or just run into enough brick walls at full speed that he finally figures things out?

NuclearWasteUSN: Is operant conditioning really learning?

CHASGRAFT: It is the most complete kind of learning.

NuclearWasteUSN: It’s ok Randy, I read what you mean, not what you type

NuclearWasteUSN: Good point, Charlie. LOL

AGplusone has left the room.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: another boot

NuclearWasteUSN: Welcome back


NuclearWasteUSN: How far back this time?

rjjusu: Not sure, but if you consider the growth/maturation process to be learning, conscious or otherwise, then most of his characters were students, and a good student also teaches his teacher.

CHASGRAFT: “if your parents/teachers don’t teach you, the universe will. And not gently.) OWTTE, John W. Cambell

AGplusone: jcgsmtop1:Right

AGplusone:Just three minutes, this


CHASGRAFT:Or words to that effect.

jcgsmtop1:Thank you!

CHASGRAFT: Used when making “quoted” from memory.

jcgsmtop1:Ah – OK. Agplusone:At least it’s not shutting down the room when it boots me.

rjjusu:Yes, the essence of engineering is trying to build an idiot proof system, while the universe tries to build a better idiot. So far, the universe is winning the race….

NuclearWasteUSN: Both should be in your Loop inbox

CHASGRAFT:Hands down.

AGplusone: thank you sir

NuclearWasteUSN:or in notebooks where it notes stupidity as the only universal capital crime

rjjusu:I suppose in the Heinlein universe (and ours too, really) learning is like being the shark – if you don’t keep going forward, you die.

AGplusone:That’s one of the points in Owenby’s book Forthcoming

NuclearWasteUSN:Well I hate to leave, but the wife is hear whispering sweet somethings in my ear…

rjjusu:The real issue is, how many sharks are there, and how many remora?

jcgsmtop1:Nice meeting you, Jim. Thanks again for the bookmark.

NuclearWasteUSN:Must bid you all good night.

rjjusu:Take care, Jim – stay healthy

jcgsmtop1:Bye, Jim.

AGplusone:ah, she’s going to let you whisper back, is she? Our regards to her.

NuclearWasteUSN:No problem, I will return on Saturday!

AGplusone:Great to see you

jcgsmtop1:Rats – I’ll have to miss Saturday

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

CHASGRAFT:I think it is about that time myself. Later.

jcgsmtop1:This happens every two weeks, right?

AGplusone:Night Charlie

AGplusone:Sure does

jcgsmtop1:Thurs and Sat?

CHASGRAFT has left the room.

jcgsmtop1:Dropping like flies, again …

AGplusone:Do we have your e mail for mailing list of announcements?

rjjusu:and with real live authors, too!

jcgsmtop1:Oooh oooh . grin!

rjjusu:You don’t want to miss the upcoming special event…..

jcgsmtop1:I don’t think so … where do I submit it?

AGplusone:send it to majoroz@aol.com, or ddavitt@netcom.ca, or right here. Dave Wright will copy it for his list when I send him log


jcgsmtop1:OK – hmmm – decisions … which e-mail address to use!

AGplusone:or me: agplusone@loop.com

rjjusu:Dave, is L. Neil Smith the next chat or the one after?

jcgsmtop1:Sounds like you know everything!

AGplusone:Neil is second week in May

AGplusone:so I think so

rjjusu:Don’t want to miss that one, Joanne.

jcgsmtop1:I’ll do my best!

AGplusone:And you post afh?


AGplusone:usenet newsgroup alt.fan.heinlein

jcgsmtop1:no – I’ve never “done” newsgroups

AGplusone:or at least lurk there?


AGplusone:On a Mac or an IBM clone?


AGplusone:Tell her, please, Randy

jcgsmtop1:Do, tell, Randy … please!


jcgsmtop1:Where do you need me? I have a lot of flexibility – home on medical disability … I just don’t do well with hard and fast deadlines

AGplusone:Just send me your $35.00 …. PO Box 1254, Venice, CA 90294

AGplusone: The Heinlein Society payee c/o David M. Silver, Secretary works fine

jcgsmtop1:Will do – I printed out the page and it’s in my bill stack – and just got my paycheck yesterday …


jcgsmtop1:What comes with membership? (fries?)

AGplusone:Okay … background, education, interests … ketchup

rjjusu:a home correspondence course in Martian.

jcgsmtop1:Just knowing the Society is here is worth $35!!!

jcgsmtop1:Cool! I’ve always wanted to learn Martian … it will help in communicating with men! Grin

AGplusone:Actually I may decide to send out a CD rom with a Heinlein speech or interview on it

AGplusone:we’re thinking on that

rjjusu:No, Martian is a language of knowledge. You want Low Venusian….

jcgsmtop1:Wow. Giving me chills, Dave!

AGplusone:for charter Members

jcgsmtop1:How many members are there so far?

AGplusone:Ginny sent me her collection. Some haven’t been published, ever …

AGplusone:over 30 now … moving slowly up

jcgsmtop1:SERIOUS CHILLS!!!!

jcgsmtop1:I want … I want … Give me more RAH!!!

jcgsmtop1:I think some of us would read his grocery lists!

jcgsmtop1:One of my most prized possessions is a first edition hardcover of Time Enough for Love – my favorite book

jcgsmtop1:I always wanted to send it to him and ask for his autograph … but I never wanted to bother him …

AGplusone:Could use some help in membership maybe with a cross over to another committee … any teaching experience?

rjjusu:Actually, I’m going to soon have a chance to read one of his stories that I haven’t read before.

AGplusone:Which one?

jcgsmtop1:Which one?

jcgsmtop1:(great minds)


jcgsmtop1:No “formal” teaching training – but I’ve led workshops and such things.

jcgsmtop1:And membership would be fine.

rjjusu:One of the three that has never been reprinted…. One of the so-called stinkaroos… Let me see if I can find the specific title….

jcgsmtop1:I writes really kinda like good

AGplusone:me two


jcgsmtop1:(words is fine – just don’t ask me to add numbers without a spreadsheet!)

jcgsmtop1:(computer spreadsheet that is!)

AGplusone:speaking of which I gotta get a copy of Office Suite

AGplusone:and learn to use Excel (cringe)

rjjusu:It’s not that bad, Dave

jcgsmtop1:I started to say I had that sort of thing … but it’s for IBM, not Mac …

jcgsmtop1:It’s easy …

AGplusone:I know … used it many years ago back around system 6

AGplusone:’90 or so

AGplusone:so no matter what I say about the Evil Empire, or the Dark Side, take it with a grain of salt. Never been without a copy of Word

AGplusone:I just have to learn it anew this time

jcgsmtop1:Yes – After years of DOS-based Word Perfect, it took me about a week to fall in love with a mouse and MS Word! After that I had to learn Word Perfect for Windows – UGH!

AGplusone:Word was a great Mac application, back around version 3

AGplusone:and stayed that way, even if it did get bloated beyond belief

jcgsmtop1:”Back in MY day, sonny …” grin

AGplusone:my day was IBM 1401s

AGplusone:Learned to program Them

jcgsmtop1:I think I read that MS Word for Windows takes more memory than the computers that run the space shuttle

AGplusone:48 k computer

jcgsmtop1:I’ve always been on the word processing side – legal secretary, then various high-level admin/low level managerial stuff

AGplusone:really … what kind of firm?

jcgsmtop1:I was incarcerated as a legal secretary in a huge Chicago firm, released on parole to be Dir of Admin at the regional HQ of an int’l travel agency franchisor …

jcgsmtop1:then reincarcerated at another huge Chgo law firm, then released for time served

jcgsmtop1:Then I spent the last four years working for CNA Insurance, an affiliate, back to CNA, then to a wholly owned subsidiary, then back to CNA … and on disability from them for the last 2 years

AGplusone:That’s good … sla it doesn’t turn out to be one of my fav mgmt labor relations outfits like Taft Stetinus or somebody

jcgsmtop1:Dave, I’m looking at the form Tawn sent – I should check the membership committee? Anything else?

rjjusu:Got it. The story is “Beyond Doubt” one of the three not reprinted elsewhere. Written as Lyle Monroe, with Elma Wentz

AGplusone:You may enjoy it … that’s not the Easter Island one, is it?

AGplusone:anything else you think you’d enjoy

jcgsmtop1:Wow. Unreprinted RAH. I’m whimpering …

rjjusu:Not sure – haven’t read it yet.

rjjusu:You too could have this story, if you want to get a copy of the book.

jcgsmtop1:What are each of your favorite RAH books/stories, Dave and Randy?

jcgsmtop1:What book?

AGplusone:See if you can spot the rewrite by RAH … I understand the collaboration with her was simply a Rewrite

AGplusone:She didn’t sell it, he rewrote it, and it sold.

AGplusone:I love them all. the last one usually when I’m asked for favorites

AGplusone:To Sail Beyond the Sunset … aka Go, Odyseus, Go …

jcgsmtop1:I love the 10 Commandments in that one

jcgsmtop1:Randy, how about you?

jcgsmtop1:And what’s the book??

jcgsmtop1:(that the story is in)

rjjusu:Do a web search for the Frederik Pohl anthology “Beyond the End of Time”, published in 1952, by Perma (Doubleday). I’ll let you know how it is after I receive my copy.

jcgsmtop1:Frederik Pohl – he’s cool. I met him at a lecture by Harlan Ellison at a local college a few years back.

jcgsmtop1:And he’s due to sign books at a local SF bookstore

AGplusone:I’d have loved to have met Maureen at eighteen

AGplusone:or thirty-five

AGplusone:or sixty

jcgsmtop1:Me, too – although I’d prefer Lazarus … or maybe Galahad

jcgsmtop1:Or even Justin

jcgsmtop1:I’ve always aspired to RAH’s definition of Tamara (Sperling?) in Time Enough for Love

AGplusone:We’ve been trying out an idea … tie in blooddrive to bookstore gatherings

jcgsmtop1:That’s a great idea.

rjjusu:It’s hard to pick a favorite, though I am pretty partial to Starship Trooper, since I’ve been in the military most my life, after that, it’s a tossup between Citizen of the Galaxy, Stranger in a Strange Land and Double Star. Of course, all the juveniles, and anything else he has written.

AGplusone:I’m going to try something with Connie Willis out here in a couple weeks and talk to Joe Haldeman at UCLA this weekend

jcgsmtop1:And will she slap your hand for what you’re going to try? Grin …

rjjusu:Not her, but …..

AGplusone:I sincerely hope not. I also want to get her to visit as Joe did, the chats.

jcgsmtop1:Have Spacesuit, Will Travel was the first one I read. Back a few lifetimes ago … grin

jcgsmtop1:Time Enough for Love is my hands-down favorite

jcgsmtop1:Followed by everything he’s written … followed by Spider Robinson’s books

AGplusone:Have you ever met Spider?

jcgsmtop1:What branch of the military, Randy?

rjjusu:Yes, it’s hard to believe that I read my first Heinlein when I was but a little trooper, over 35 years ago…..

jcgsmtop1:No – I’d be totally speechless.

AGplusone:Randy is in the Air Scouts

jcgsmtop1:I’ve met David Brin, though – he spoke at a Mensa Annual Gathering a few years ago

rjjusu:I’ve spent a couple of years in the army, and the last 19 in the Air Force, active and reserve….

jcgsmtop1:Thank you for “serving and protecting”

jcgsmtop1:I have the greatest respect for military, police, firefighters …

jcgsmtop1:(OK, OK – I love men in uniform!!)

jcgsmtop1:I had an ex-husband in Navy (very brief marriage), and an ex-husband in the USAF – and I worked for the USAF for about 5 years in the 70s

Agplusone:Brin, Bear, and Benford have got a little reading science fiction program up that we’re tying into our education committee … I’ll send you an e group http: to look at, Joanne

rjjusu:you’re welcome. Though I come by it genetically. Both my parents were in the military, and many of my uncles, cousins, my brother and his wife, and my sister’s first husband. We’ve had a boat (tank, plane) load of family in the military over the past 50 years.

rjjusu:I think I’d like to work with the education committee, once I get settled in here at the university. seems like a natural fit.

AGplusone:Glance at this if you’ve time: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rffcon1

jcgsmtop1:Thanks, Dave – you guys are great! I’m very excited about getting involved with the Heinlein Society. Oh, and about blood drives – Mensa gatherings usually have them, too … my docs won’t let me donate blood any more (I used to donate every however many days apart you could).

rjjusu:56 days…

jcgsmtop1:I was debating between 52 and 56 …

AGplusone:We have an in lieu of donation aspect … slavery for so many hours

jcgsmtop1:Hmmm – I prefer to *have* slaves than be one … but in this case, I just might make an exception!!

AGplusone:The idea of the rffcon1 group is to introduce sf reading into classrooms, elementary, secondary, etc.

jcgsmtop1:Great! I learned more from RAH’s writing than I have from anything else

AGplusone:And they’ve used Farmer as a pilot program they’re going to report on at PhilCon over Labor Day

jcgsmtop1:As much of an SF reader as I’ve always been, I’ve never been to an SF Con

jcgsmtop1:(*hanging head in shame*)

rjjusu:Seems reasonable. The first day of class that I taught this semester, I gave my students a short quiz, and one of the questions was “Who is your favorite SF author?” Gotta keep ‘em guessing! :-)

jcgsmtop1:Have you met Spider Robinson, Dave?

jcgsmtop1:What do you teach,Randy? Where?

rjjusu:Electrical and Computer Engineering – Utah State University

Agplusone:Ginny gave us Spider as a potential visitor … he had trouble using his laptop … it’s an old one … and getting it to work with AIM … trying to get a second shot at him for a Visit

jcgsmtop1:So a question about an SF author must have really had them guessing!

AGplusone:He lives in Eastern Canada

jcgsmtop1:WOWOWOWOW … I have a friend in Vancouver – where Spider is from – I bet he could arrange to let Spider use his laptop …

rjjusu:Well, they’re college students – they need to broaden their horizons…..

jcgsmtop1:He’s a computer pro

jcgsmtop1:Dont’ we all, Randy!

rjjusu:Yep, that’s why I have a minor in Russian History.

jcgsmtop1:Or has Spider moved – Vancouver is Western Canada … I know he once lived in Halifax (Eastern Canada)

jcgsmtop1:”specialization is for insects”

AGplusone:My Spousal Overlord Unit is due shortly. When I wrote him he was in or around Halifax

rjjusu:or liberal democrats…..

AGplusone:about a year ago

jcgsmtop1:Hmm. “Spousal Overlord Unit” – groan!!

jcgsmtop1:I have Feline Overlord Units …

AGplusone:I also have one of those, and a Daughter Overlord Unit

jcgsmtop1:Computers, engineering and Russian history … good combination, Randy. And how many overlord units do you have? I have two of the feline version

jcgsmtop1:No child units

AGplusone:Just Bob …

jcgsmtop1:Just Bob?

rjjusu:I just have a multitude of Overunits, of various types, but no feline or canine units, due to severe allergies in my Spousal Overunit…

jcgsmtop1:Ouch. Life without felines …

rjjusu:Use to have a feline overunit, but it was the spouse or the feline, so not much of a contest.

jcgsmtop1:I just looked at that Yahoo e-group …. “a cat herd of things” – Great!

jcgsmtop1:I’m sure – Spousal Units generally win.

jcgsmtop1:In fact, my last live-in partner – when he left, I kept his cat along with my own!

jcgsmtop1:(The cat is the better deal!)

rjjusu:Well, did you ever try to get a cat to scramble eggs properly?

jcgsmtop1:I wouldn’t even dream of it! But then I’m appreciative that my two allow me to live here, too! (They just keep me for the opposable thumb)


AGplusone:Will show you Bob

jcgsmtop1:Hmmm – there’s just a kind of an indecipherable graphic … that’s Bob?

rjjusu:Yes, we should be glad our pets allow us to stay with them – they usually recognize the true character of individuals much quicker than people do.


rjjusu:A “Door Into Summer” sort of thing.

AGplusone:Works for me.

jcgsmtop1:Yes. I had a date over earlier … he sat on one end of the sofa, I was on the other. My two cats flanked him, kind of like the Chicago Art Institute lions … I’m not sure what they were trying to tell me!

AGplusone:Black cat in an oval?


jcgsmtop1:Ah – now I see it … grin

AGplusone:There’s also some other photos there … Jim = NW here earlier, Jane Davitt, etc.

jcgsmtop1:Cool – thank you. It’s always nice to put faces to names

AGplusone:You’ll recognize them when you visit afh after Randy’s letter comes

rjjusu:Well, I need to drop off here. I’ve got some grading to do yet tonight, and a grant proposal I need to get in tomorrow, plus tomorrow is the last day of classes, so I’ve got a bunch of labs to grade and a final to write this weekend. Sigh, a teacher’s work is never done…. fortunately.

AGplusone:See ya, Randy …

jcgsmtop1:It was a delight to meet you, Randy.

jcgsmtop1:Nice pic of you and your (I presume) Spousal OverUnit … the background is beautiful

rjjusu:Likewise, and I’ll try to get you some stuff tomorrow Dave, after I get the proposal in the mail.

AGplusone:Okay, thank you, sir

rjjusu:Take care, and I hope to see you all Saturday.

jcgsmtop1:And I understand “Bob” now … grin

AGplusone:I’m going to wrap it up too, now … Joanne, pleasure to meet you … glad you like him. He tells me he’s decended from Petronius the Arbiter in 1970

AGplusone:Somewhere along the line a black cat crept into the bloodlines.

jcgsmtop1:Grin. Pleasure to meet you, too, Dave. I’ll be sending you my $35 and sending that form back to Tawn.

AGplusone:Send it to me, please.

jcgsmtop1:The $$ and the form?

AGplusone:All to the PO box … I’ll get the form to Tawn

jcgsmtop1:Ah. OK.

jcgsmtop1:Oh, and Mensa has a saying:

AGplusone:See ya, and welcome …

jcgsmtop1:”Leading Mensans is like trying to herd cats”

AGplusone:which is …


AGplusone:herding skunks is the way we put it … grin

jcgsmtop1:I’ve really enjoyed visiting with you guys tonight

AGplusone:We did Too

jcgsmtop1:I won’t be around Sat, but I have the subsequent chats listed on my calendar

AGplusone:okay, we’ll see you then … and enjoy AFH when you find it.

jcgsmtop1:And you can find me on AIM frequently .. feel free to say hi!

jcgsmtop1:Take care.

AGplusone:I will …. bye


jcgsmtop1 has left the room.

Log officially Closed at 12:25 PM EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 4-14-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 4-14-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

SAcademy has entered the room.

SAcademy: Good afternoon, David

SAcademy: No one else here yet?

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. No no one. I just woke up from my afternoon nap

SAcademy: Do you get a nap every day?

SAcademy: Oops, gotta change the music

DavidWrightSr: Not ususally. Some saturdays and Sundays, I do

DavidWrightSr: What are you listening to?

SAcademy: Beeethoven Triple Concerto, with Richter, Oisdtrakh, and rostropovich

SAcademy: It’s a favorite of mine.

DavidWrightSr: That sounds nice. I don’t get to hear much music. Mostly when I do it’s musical comedies. Although I do like classical.

SAcademy: My last computer and this one have borh had music players.

SAcademy: I like the Russians, too

SAcademy: They have wonderful soloists

DavidWrightSr: My laptop does, so I can listen when Its turned on. Recently, however, I’ve been listening to Russian all the time trying to get my understanding back up.

SAcademy: It has von Karajan conducting

ddavitt has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane. Ginny and I were just chatting.

ddavitt: Hi Ginny, Dave

SAcademy: Hello, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Wonder where everyone is?

SAcademy: Dunno

ddavitt: Our guests have just left; thought I might not be able to make it.

SAcademy: Beach, maybe?

ddavitt: Friends who moved away last year, back for a visit

ddavitt: You must be a lot warmer than us :-)

SAcademy: That’s nice. Enjoy it.

ddavitt: maybe with it being easter they’re all away?

DavidWrightSr: We went through Spring in a day. It’s like summer now

SAcademy: It’s hot today–around 90

ddavitt: 70 last weekend for a day; T shirt weather but still has snow on the ground

ddavitt: Now the snow has gone but it’s cooler

SAcademy: Odd combination

ddavitt: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: We used to experience that when we lived in Indiana

ddavitt: We have a short spring too; woosh it’s summer

SAcademy: I have to get you home address again–I mislaid it.

DavidWrightSr: Well, we usually don’t, but this year it was. Was that for me or Jane, Ginny?

ddavitt: I will email you if you like

ddavitt: Oops, I assumed that was me

SAcademy: Thank you, that would be better.

DavidWrightSr: I think it was you :-)

ddavitt: I smiled to read the log and see who the mysterious Heinleinsmof was:-)

ddavitt: I thought it was a late arrival

ddavitt: Glad Bill made it eventually

SAcademy: I guess I missed that part.

DavidWrightSr: As I said, the funniest thing was that we were playing guesssing games with Robert’s name and there that name popped up.

SAcademy: So he said, and he thinks he can do it again today. I told him to download AIM 95.exe

ddavitt: Yes, it was after you left Ginny and just as I was going

ddavitt: It wouldn’t let him on with his usual name; said it was taken. Which it is of course

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hello!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Kultsi. Welcome

KultsiKN: Thx!

SAcademy: I have that same trouble, that’s why I’m SAcademic. AOL christened me that

SAcademy: Hello Kultsi!

ddavitt: Hi there!

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny, Jane!

SAcademy: How’s the weather in Finland?

ddavitt: All ready with lots of questions and thoughts Kultsi?:-)

SAcademy: Abatch of CD’x started to slide off and I had to catch them

ddavitt: They are slippery aren’t they?

KultsiKN: The weather’s been sunny.

SAcademy: CD’s

SAcademy: Warm yet?

DavidWrightSr: Our pollen count has been sky high. Rained yesterday and there was yellow slush all over the place.

KultsiKN: Relatively, yes.

SAcademy: Pine pollen I bet. We have the same thing here, and I have sniffles

KultsiKN: The first flowers are coming up.

SAcademy: That’s nice. I have some roses. Peace

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Not here yet..well i saw one stunted crocus and a few bulb shoots but that’s it

DavidWrightSr: It’s going to be one of those nights where it starts off slooow and people start wandering in. I betcha.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Denv.

DenvToday: Good afternoon to one and all.

ddavitt: I like those! Pink and yellow aren’t they?

DenvToday: Hi :-)

ddavitt: Hi Denv

DenvToday: How is everybody today?

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

SAcademy: Fine. How are you

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jon.

ddavitt: Fine. i may have to vanish now and then to help David in the garage; he’s trying to get the Camaro up on ramps and the wheels are too big

OakMan 7111: Hello Everyone

SAcademy: Hello, Jon

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

ddavitt: Hi Jon’

SAcademy: AOL has been trying to throw me offline for some time now.

DenvToday: Ah….you’re taking me back to my misspent youth. I had a Firebird, which is basically the same car.

ddavitt: I don’t get that so much

SAcademy: And they finally succeeded

DavidWrightSr: My that was a short visit :-)

ddavitt: Yes; it’s his beloved toy; I want a minivan:-)

DenvToday: SAcademy, I’m very well, thanks.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

DenvToday: wb Oak!

KultsiKN: WB, Jon!

OakMan 7111: In and out today

SAcademy: AOL is having its usual fits.

DenvToday: I finally received the Gifford book from Amazon.com yesterday. What a treat!

OakMan 7111: I tried to edit my type face down a bit and locked up…

OakMan 7111: It’s a good book

ddavitt: Yes; i use my copy a lot. Look for the jokes in the index:-)

DenvToday: Yes, all sorts of interesting tidbits.

ddavitt: So, is Bill coming or not?

ddavitt: I know he can’t make the next one because of moving

SAcademy: He said so yesterday in an email

ddavitt: Well, shall we start?

OakMan 7111: GA Jane – my favorite book

ddavitt: I think the way it is set out is helpful and clear

ddavitt: Well, anyone got a point they want to look at?

ddavitt: We don’t have to stick to the three questions rigidly

ddavitt: Have people who weren’t here on Thursday read the log?

OakMan 7111: the Three are?

ddavitt: Erm

SAcademy: Most of it.

ddavitt: Why was it written in the future so to speak

OakMan 7111: It just showed up this a.m. I have been puttering on the website all day

ddavitt: Did Mike make it cheating

ddavitt: Too easy that is

ddavitt: Did it portray revolution as fun rather than serious

ddavitt: They were what Ahaseurus said on rasfw

OakMan 7111: Against the combined resources of an entire planet? If it wasn’t for gravity and Mike, they wouldn’t have stood a chance, would they?

ddavitt: I said that…he evened the playing field

ddavitt: Warden could starve them, switch off lights..had them over a barrel really

ddavitt: They had to be sneaky and they needed a secret weapon

OakMan 7111: Yes – and he’s an OGRE type playing piece – extremely powerful, but if you lose him, you have lost

DenvToday: RAH underestimated the advances in computer technology, and overestimated the advances in space travel.

DenvToday: I love Mike as a character.

ddavitt: But do we have a Mike ven now?

ddavitt: even now

DenvToday: But his fiddling with the resources on Luna would have been detected instantly by any high school hacker.

OakMan 7111: Not to my knowledge

ddavitt: Hackers not thought of then; personal computers? Don’t be silly!

KultsiKN: Jane, as hardware, we could have one, as SW, no way.

DavidWrightSr: RAH didn’t predict the impact that Large Scale Integration would have on computer development, but then again very few did.

DenvToday: However…it doesn’t matter. Nobody can be prescient about future advances. Given the state of technology in the mid-sixties, it all makes perfect sense.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: yes..don’t have to be a prophet, just need to be entertaining and plausible

DenvToday: Good afternoon!

ddavitt: Hi Will’

geeairmoe2: Hello, all.

SAcademy: Hello

OakMan 7111: Ever read Venus Equilateral? (George O Smith) having the right vacuum tube is a major plot point in one of the books

DavidWrightSr: And as he said, no one really knows what self-awareness is in humans, so any prediction of it in computers is just as valid as the next guy’s

OakMan 7111: Hi William

ddavitt: It might have happened; mannie kept it quiet:-)

DenvToday: Jane, I absolutely agree. TMIAHM is…I was going to say my favorite RAH work. But so are about 5 or 6 others. lol

ddavitt: Same here! Don’t ask me to choose

OakMan 7111: I’ve worked with a couple of computers that seemed to have personality — but they were MEAN

DenvToday: lol Oak

ddavitt: Desert island books…ooh I couldn’t pick 10!

OakMan 7111: No question for me. Moon is it

KultsiKN: I’ve once met a computer that gave wrong answers.

ddavitt: do you have that radio programme here?

OakMan 7111: I didn’t program it, I don’t care what they told you, Kultsi

ddavitt: really? spooky

DavidWrightSr: I would say that it is my favorite of all of the Stranger and post-stranger works, My favorites are still the juveniles, but that is because I never grew up.

DenvToday: If you were going to a desert island, and you could take only ten books with you….which desert island would you pick?

ddavitt: one with a bookstore

OakMan 7111: LOL

SAcademy: Bill has the wrong software again!

DenvToday: lol Yes!

SAcademy: I sent an invitation to him

DavidWrightSr: Me too.

DenvToday: David, thank goodness that you’ve never grown up. None of the best people ever do!

OakMan 7111: If you could have a dinner party and invite 4 of RAH’s characters to dinner – which ones?

SAcademy: Now we’re all Peter Pans?

ddavitt: peewee and kip grown up

OakMan 7111: Not me – I played Captain Hook a half lifetime ago

DenvToday: Hmmmm…Lazarus of course. And Jubal. Dr. de la Paz. And Maureen Johnson.

ddavitt: baby on knee; no capitals for a bit

DavidWrightSr: Lazarus was my first thought.

KultsiKN: Minerva.

ddavitt: hazel not gwen

OakMan 7111: How about Mike?

DenvToday: Oh yes one more–Sir Isaac Newton. But we’d have to hold the dinner in a convention center.

DavidWrightSr: Which Mike? Mycroft or Michael Valentine?

OakMan 7111: Mycroft

DavidWrightSr: I’m not sure I could take sentient computers. the old-fashioned ones give me enough problems as it is.

geeairmoe2: Star, Friday, Maureen and whichever male character they’d all find repugnant so they’d pay attention to me.

DenvToday: If he were sentient, he’d get the hiccups from Windows 98.

DenvToday: rofl gee

DavidWrightSr: If he were sentient, he would have thrown Win98 out the window.

DenvToday: true

ddavitt: Just chatting to Bill brb

ddavitt: trying to get him in

SAcademy: Good luck

KultsiKN: Goodness, what a pun: defenestration for Windows…

ddavitt: No; he is going to try something else

DavidWrightSr: At least, tonight, I had no trouble inviting him. No nonsense about software not being able to chat, but it doesn’t look like he is making it in.

OakMan 7111: You guys laugh I program for windows and it has been very very good to me :-D

SAcademy: He probably didn’t download AIM 95 exe as I told him to.

ddavitt: He is going to get out of aol and ome back on AIM

DenvToday: My brother is a Mac fanatic. He still hasn’t forgiven me for using a Windows machine.

DavidWrightSr: Well, for that matter, so do I, and to be truthful, I am not in the general class of Microsoft bashers. I know how hard it is get a computer to do anything, much less anything that complicated.

OakMan 7111: David Silver is one, too. But I forgive him

ddavitt: I know nothing…

ddavitt: But I get by

OakMan 7111: With a little help from your friends?

SAcademy: David Silvr tried to get me to get a Mac instead of this one

DavidWrightSr: Compared to what I was programming 30 years ago, it is fantastic.

DenvToday: Yes, true David. I don’t bash Microsoft or Bill Gates. But I am annoyed that Microsoft so often releases a product that by all rights should still be in beta.

KultsiKN: Agree, David.

SAcademy: I like Windows–think it’s great

OakMan 7111: Francesco and I tried to tell him that Netscape on Mac was not exactly a mainstream choice for a browser, but he didn’t want to hear it.

ddavitt: Yes; people like to help

ddavitt: And I’m vert grateful when they do

DenvToday: I must admit that Word is my favorite word-processing program.

OakMan 7111: Hey Denv – I’m doing the beta of XP – its an alpha :-)

ddavitt: I have Netscape but with Windows; i like it

DenvToday: Woohoo!!

KultsiKN: Word is better than anything else I’ve tried.

DavidWrightSr: Jane. wasn’t one of the questions about TMIAH was whether or the revolution had ‘failed’.

ddavitt: Anyway, stop all this!! Bill will shout at me if I let you all go off topic:-)

OakMan 7111: I used to love Word Perfect

ddavitt: That’s better Dave:-)

OakMan 7111: but in the days of DOS

KultsiKN: And, IMO, Netscape is better than IE.

SAcademy: Anyone else remember CP/M?

OakMan 7111: Yes, I do

ddavitt: I don’t know if it was exactly or if we just got onto it but let’s take a look at that

SAcademy: Wasn’t it fun?

KultsiKN: Me!

OakMan 7111: LOL – computers were fun back then – like flying an open cockpit plane

ddavitt: What were the aims of the revolution?

SAcademy: I used that and Magic Wand for two years

ddavitt: If it was to stop the imminent famine them it worked

DenvToday: David, it’s the nature of all revolutions. They ALL eventually evolve into what they revolted against. Britain of 1776 seems positively benign compared to the mega-state the United states has become in 2 centuries.

OakMan 7111: Same as those of the American revolution – to gain the rights of an Englishman

ddavitt: It also got the Loonies out on their own

ddavitt: They made mistakes but they were their own mistakes

SAcademy: Does that make them good mistakes?

DenvToday: Good question!

KultsiKN: And the shotgun went into other hands…

ddavitt: As prof said , ‘Free! You have won your freedom!”

OakMan 7111: I kept thinking the revolution was too bloodless

DavidWrightSr: You are now free to starve :-)

ddavitt: Yes I think it does SA; only way to learn is by making mistakes

DavidWrightSr: The ramps at the Bon Marche were certainly not bloodless.

ddavitt: Anyway, they didn’t do anything wrong as such; just copied earth instead of being novel. Some would say that was better

ddavitt: Lots of deaths

DavidWrightSr: and even in the breakup of the first meeting, Remember Shorty?

ddavitt: 2000 troopers, 6000 loonies in the final attack

DenvToday: It seems to be the nature of homo sapiens never to learn from history.

OakMan 7111: No they weren’t – nor was the death of Shorty – but I expected later incidences

ddavitt: All the darwin Award idiots on earth with the picnic baskets

DavidWrightSr: And the crashing of the attack ships and the people who stood on the spot where the rocks came down.

OakMan 7111: Jane in that final attack – did we see anyone die besides Mike?

ddavitt: brb

KultsiKN: There were some reported

OakMan 7111: Gee, the question wasn’t that tough :-)

ddavitt: Wasn’t that the same attack?

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

DenvToday: lol Oak

ddavitt: Talking to Bill

ddavitt: And here he si

Heinleinsmof: Success!

ddavitt: clap, clap

Heinleinsmof: Thanks for the help.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome. O mighty one!

ddavitt: Final attack was the one when Ludmilla died and those 8000 pople

ddavitt: No prob!

ddavitt: Doesn’t that seem a lot?

OakMan 7111: Ludmilla, yes, I’d forgotten her

Heinleinsmof: I think I”ve just got too many new and unfamiliar things going on at the same time.

DavidWrightSr: New and exciting world of computers O:-)

OakMan 7111: really? like what?

ddavitt: All the invaders, 2000 died. 6000 loonies dead, similar number wounded. Like white blood cells, they rushed to the invasion points and killed the bacteria

Heinleinsmof: I’m using a laptop, at a new location, completely new installation of AIM, etc.

ddavitt: We see a girl hazel’s age die probably

ddavitt: But it’ all working now?

DavidWrightSr: Is my memory off? I thought that there was some time between the landing of the ground troops and the final attack.

Heinleinsmof: Seems to be.Cross fingers.

Heinleinsmof: There were several landings, weren’t there?

ddavitt: I think there is Dave

ddavitt: It’s all in the last few pages which is confusing me

geeairmoe2: I have to be going. I’ll try to wander back if I can.

ddavitt: Hope you can

OakMan 7111: Oka, hope you do

ddavitt: Saturday, ship crashed by Mike

Heinleinsmof: Kind of a reverse invasion like War of the Worlds

ddavitt: Sunday, Monday boing continues

DavidWrightSr: That’s the trouble, (and beauty) of Heinlein’s writing. We make so many assumptions when we read them that it is sometimes hard to remember exactly what the sequence of events were.

ddavitt: bombing that is

SAcademy: I can’t read that font.

ddavitt: It is strange Bill

DavidWrightSr: Whose font, Ginny?

SAcademy: Bills

ddavitt: Bill’s is angular, like handwriting

Heinleinsmof: Is this better?

ddavitt: NO!!:-)

SAcademy: Not really

DavidWrightSr: I don’t see it that way, must be a font I don’t have. I keep seeing it normal

ddavitt: I assume that was a joke?

DenvToday: Hmmm…I’m getting it as Times New Roman. I must not have that font.

ddavitt: Oh…

Heinleinsmof: Ok. How about this?

ddavitt: Well it looks funny to me

ddavitt: That one’s fine

SAcademy: Could that be lightened some?

ddavitt: It looks just like mine so it must be OK:-)

SAcademy: It’s the only thing I see on the page

KultsiKN: Bill, you come as Times to me as well, every time.

DavidWrightSr: Same here.

Heinleinsmof: This is as light as it gets.

KultsiKN: Bill, what’s the font’s name?

SAcademy: Shouldn’t that be “hof” at the end of your name?

OakMan 7111: Now youve gone very light for those of us who are getting you as Times Roman

DavidWrightSr: That’s ok as long as Ginny can read it.

OakMan 7111: true

Heinleinsmof: OK — you should be able to read this one — it’s basic Arial Black

KultsiKN: Jon, what’s your font?

DenvToday: Well, as Garbo said, “I font to be alone.”

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

SAcademy: Improving

Heinleinsmof: Urk

OakMan 7111: Comic Sans MS

ScottW469 has entered the room.

DenvToday: Hi Scott

OakMan 7111: Hello Scott

Heinleinsmof: That’s right. I had forgotten about that font.

ScottW469: hi all

SAcademy: Hooray, it’s readable.

ddavitt: Hi Scott

Heinleinsmof: OK — I’ll leave it there.

DavidWrightSr: Now we get to do it all over again with Scott :-)

ddavitt: Bill, do you want to take over hosting?

ScottW469: :-)

Heinleinsmof: NO, we don’t: Scott, please go to Comic Sans font; one of our members has vision problems.

DenvToday: Ariel has a font. Why not Caliban?

Heinleinsmof: Not particdularly, Jane.

ddavitt: I’m sure you are chomping at the bit with questions

Heinleinsmof: Nor Titania

ScottW469: will do

Heinleinsmof: We’ll get to them. For my benefit and Scott’s, could you summarize what has gone before?

DavidWrightSr: GA Jane. :-)

ddavitt: Well, we have been looking at the likelhood of sentient computers

ScottW469: done :-)

Heinleinsmof: I’m afraid most of the commentary available about that subject is abysmally ignorant.

OakMan 7111: We brought up the question of was Mike cheating

ddavitt: Examining the death toll to see if the rev was bloody enough to make question three wrong

ddavitt: So basically, we’ve touched on all the original questions

DenvToday: I wonder if Arthur C. Clarke was thinking about Mike when he created HAL.

DavidWrightSr: I mentioned the question about whether or the revolution ‘failed’. don’t think we made much headway with that one

ddavitt: When was 2001 written?

DenvToday: 1967 or 1968

ddavitt: I think it didn’t fail Dave as it stopped the water running downhill

DenvToday: Just after TMIAHM

Heinleinsmof: 2001 was being written about the same time as TMIAHM; I suspect they were parallel developments — the film was rleased in 1967

ddavitt: Moon was 66 , yes?

Heinleinsmof: Published in 66 — also written that year, I think.

ddavitt: The short story, The Sentinel didn’t have HAL IIRC

Heinleinsmof: It was supposed to be a Christmas book but they didn’t print enough copies.

OakMan 7111: revolution is usually about people without ‘enough’ power getting it.

SAcademy: Written in 65, published in 66

DavidWrightSr: I agree with what Bill wrote. It accomplished what it set out to do. But like so many things, the actual consequences were not necessarily the ones they would have wanted, especially Prof.

Heinleinsmof: “Power to the “Correct” people.

ddavitt: whether it went where Prof wanted it too is another matter but after all it wasn’t for his benefit

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

Heinleinsmof: Well — what actually was it that Prof wanted?

ddavitt: Less of everything

Heinleinsmof: He suggests a lot of different alternatives, but doesn’t really say what he wanted

DenvToday: Was chaos theory being written about in those days?

ddavitt: Government wise

OakMan 7111: But the noble goals always become compromised, once the power has changed hands

Heinleinsmof: From this I infer that what Prof wanted was for them to be self-determining. This is 100% achieved by the revolution.

ddavitt: It’s irrelevant; the people didn’t want it and he set it up so they were in charge

DavidWrightSr: I think that he would have been happy with the society going on as it was just without the drain that grain shipments mean to them.

ddavitt: Very noble of him really

ddavitt: Or realistic

DavidWrightSr: mean–meant

Heinleinsmof: Trying to get a handle on what standards Ahasuerus used to come up with the idea that the revolution failed . . .

DenvToday: David, much as most Americans would have been here in the colonies had Britain not been irretrievably stupid.

Heinleinsmof: The only thing I can come up with was Luna changed from a frontier society to the start of a “civilized” society at that point.

OakMan 7111: Yes, bill, but they start selling their birthright for a mess of pottage, don’t they?

Heinleinsmof: Well, they were doing that before, weren’t they?

ddavitt: I find it interesting that H could’ve written it as it happened and given us a happy ending

ddavitt: Instead, he wrote it in flashbacks and we KNOW it didn’t work out from the first line

OakMan 7111: Yes – and the revolution for a moment stops that from happening

DenvToday: But was the ending happy? For the short term, yes. But we already see what it’s going to become.

Heinleinsmof: The value I see Heinlein posing here is that, no matter what, it is better to be self-determining.

Heinleinsmof: And it’s worth a high cost.

DenvToday: And he was right about that. It is worth a high cost.

Heinleinsmof: “The tree of liberty must be replenished from time to time with the blood of patriots.”

OakMan 7111: I think that RAH makes the point over and over again, that its not whether you get to the destination, but how you travel the road that counts. Mike, Mannie, Shorty, etc – they traveled it as it should be done.

DenvToday: “A republic–if you can keep it.” I see many similarities between Ben Franklin and Prof. de la Paz.

Heinleinsmof: Sgt. Roberts in Starman Jones.

ddavitt: Prof was willing to have royalty

OakMan 7111: I once suggested that Mannie was George Washington, Bernardo was Ben Franklin; Wyo was all of those guys from Virginia, and Mannie was John Adams

ddavitt: Interesting!

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think that quite works out.

OakMan 7111: Not Mannie as Adams – Mike

ddavitt: I found it also cautionary the way the US appears in the book

Heinleinsmof: Prof fills the role of Washington better — plus the John Adams role.

ddavitt: They aren’t nice to the moon at all and they’ve lost their own independence

OakMan 7111: Nope he’s too smart to be Washington:-)

Heinleinsmof: Oh, that’s right: Adam Selene was Washington. That’s why he had to be gotten rid of.

OakMan 7111: And GW has artificial teeth

Heinleinsmof: All of Mike’s teeth are artificial!

DavidWrightSr: Mike was *all* artificial

Heinleinsmof: gmta

DenvToday: When we speak with Neil Smith next month, ask him his opinion of George Washington. It may shock some of you.

OakMan 7111: Mannie is the general

Heinleinsmof: (Not if you’ve read The Probability Broach)

OakMan 7111: Not me

DenvToday: hehe…true

ddavitt: So far, i can’t get any of his books in the library

OakMan 7111: He wrote an excellent book about the Whiskey Revolution, too

Heinleinsmof: It may be necessary to order them from EB

Heinleinsmof: ay

ddavitt: I will have to look in the used book shops

Heinleinsmof: or Bibliofind

ddavitt: maybe so.

OakMan 7111: Jane, I may have an extra copy of 1 or 2 – send me a mailing address?

ddavitt: We do have some excellent used shops in a 30 minute drive radius

Heinleinsmof: People don’t recycle those books to used book stores.

DenvToday: There are several used book stores online.

ddavitt: Will do if i can’t get any from the librray; thanks Jon!

Heinleinsmof: It’s the way Heinlein was 25 years ago.

OakMan 7111: k

ddavitt: Yes but I sometimes get slapped with huge custom fees from the US into canada

ddavitt: makes them expensive

OakMan 7111: Sometimes I think we should expand the book program – but the logistic might get crazy

Heinleinsmof: I’m shocked — do the Journals get customized?

DenvToday: The two novels I’d suggest to you if you haven’t read Smith before: The Probability Broach and Pallas.

ddavitt: Yes, I think Don was too busy to contemplate it but it would be nice

ddavitt: I’ve noted them down; thanks!

Heinleinsmof: And then read Their Majesties’ Bucketeers just for the fun of it.

ddavitt: I’ve been to Amazon and read the reviews there which is a good start

ddavitt: Gives me an idea

DenvToday: He also wrote 2 novels in the style of Sabatini/Forester Henry Martyn and Bretta Martyn. Darned good reads, both of them.

DenvToday: Yep

ddavitt: Is that one of the pirate ones?

ddavitt: Henry martyn one looked fun

OakMan 7111: Lol – the new Cliff’s notes: Amazon’s reviews

ddavitt: Well they are!

ddavitt: Funny how the reviews can be wildly different tho

OakMan 7111: Didn’t say otherwise honest:-)

Heinleinsmof: But not as useful. I tried looking at the Stranger reviews — my god, people have a lot of time on their hands!

ddavitt: And dismaying how badly written some of the customer comments are

OakMan 7111: I was doing a lookup a few days ago it struck me how impossible it would have been to do what i was doing, 25 years ago

Heinleinsmof: Yup — you could do something comparable — but it was a very highly specialized librarian’s tool.

ddavitt: Yes; if i had been able to get all these books when i had wages too….

DavidWrightSr: I was thinking of that when I mentioned my first programming 30 years back.


OakMan 7111: Stranger is like the bible and army regs – you can find anything you want to prove anything you want to prove, if you look hard enough and tweak it just a little…

DenvToday: lol Oak. So very true.

Heinleinsmof: Actually, what you have to do is selectively ignore the parts that don’t fit.

DenvToday: I wonder if RAH would be dismayed by the New Ageism attributed to him.

Heinleinsmof: Hey — it’s a worldmyth: it has to contain everything or it wouldn’t work.

ddavitt: back to moon; i liked finding all mannie’s mistakes but, like the Kilroy bit, it might prove hard to spot them as time goes by:-)

ddavitt: i mean, the Boston Tea party was real, wasn’t it?

OakMan 7111: I love it when Heinlein does that. It says so much!

Heinleinsmof: Great characterization — Cabell did something like that, too, to show how ephemeral are the most “vital” of our current concerns.

DenvToday: If I’m not mistaken, Mannie was one of the first RAH protagonists who wasn’t super-competent.

Heinleinsmof: I’m always puzzled whens omebody says something like that.

DenvToday: Why?

OakMan 7111: Denv – John Lyle

DenvToday: I didn’t realize I’d said a cliche. lol

Heinleinsmof: Heinlein’s protagonists aren’t “super competent.” They are simply ordinarily adequate human beings — see the definition in TEFL.

ddavitt: He was better than average but not a genius. He was that rarity in fiction; a nice person

DavidWrightSr: It’s always been very ironic to me that they have ‘Lunaya Pravda’ as a newspaper. As ‘Pravda’ means truth, and ‘Novost'”, (another big soviet paper means ‘the news’) there was an old joke in russian that there was ‘No News in Pravda and no Truth in The News’

ddavitt: I have to go and give lauren her baby rice ( not rusks this time!) brb

DenvToday: Well…we must know different people. Most people I know are ignorant, intellectually lazy and self-satisfied. One of the great pleasures in reading RAH is spending some time with characters who aren’t.

OakMan 7111: It seems to me that most of heinlein’s characters are folks who have a lot ot learn when they start

OakMan 7111: but they have the potential to learn it

DavidWrightSr: But like the people ‘in the moon’ in the FH series, (Its great to be back), they are the kind of people who make it nice to be around.

DavidWrightSr: and don’t have the ordinary cussedness we take for granted on the Earth. (or something like that)

OakMan 7111: I have never figured out whether I could have like Lazarus in person half as much as I like him on the page

ScottW469: that would depend on if it were his ‘younger’ or ‘later’ years

DavidWrightSr: What you said about having a lot to learn. That’s why I always get a kick when people talk about RAH’s 2-dimensional characters.

OakMan 7111: true Scott

DenvToday: Oak, that’s an excellent point. He would be more than most people could handle. But the real question is whether he would have found any of us interesting or useful enough to spend time with.

OakMan 7111: Actually I may just be thinking of it when they were forcing him to stay alive against his wishes

DenvToday: I’ve always found that interesting–it goes against one of the precepts you usually find in RAH’s work–a man owns his own life. If he desires to die, that’s his right. And RAH does explore that contradiction.

Heinleinsmof: Lazarus Long loved every loveably human being.

OakMan 7111: Yes – they give the lie to almost everything they say they believe in, when they revive him — 8? 9 times?

KultsiKN: But did not find many of them loveable.

Heinleinsmof: Then why did he collect them so apparently at random into his family?

Heinleinsmof: Paraphrase: It is possible to love every one of the great majority of people.

KultsiKN: no.

Heinleinsmof: Every person he comes into contact with in TEFL becomes part of his Tertius family, eventually.

DenvToday: Love, yes. Respect? Probably not.

OakMan 7111: Someone once said that until you stand up to me, I don’t know if I can lean on you. LL seemed to collect the folks who could say “no.” to him

Heinleinsmof: Respect — definitely; it’s just LL’s brand of respect.

Heinleinsmof: Every person at his own level.

Heinleinsmof: Look — I “respect” the integrity of my 11 year old nephew, and love him, too, but he doesn’t get treated like an adult.

Heinleinsmof: He doesn’t have the intellectual or emotional wherewithal to do adult stuff.

OakMan 7111: And if he’s peewee, you’re upseting him

Heinleinsmof: Part of “respect” is treating them as appropriate to where they are at the moment.

DenvToday: I’m not the one to ask. They still seat me at the kiddy table at family gatherings.

ScottW469: but again, that could depend a lot on where and when they are being brought up…

ddavitt: and if he’s clark you’re in big trouble

Heinleinsmof: True. But Aquinas said something like “love is expansive of itself.”

OakMan 7111: My ex wife used to insist that 11 years olds should be treated as “young adults”

Heinleinsmof: Your ex wife is a fool

ScottW469: those on a farm, for instance, tend to ‘mature’ into responsibility sooner

OakMan 7111: You met her, too?

DenvToday: For most of history, a boy or girl was considered an adult when entering puberty. And usually had adult responsibilities.

ScottW469: exactly

Heinleinsmof: Yes — we prolong childhood (attempt to) until it is hell and pain to the adolescent.

OakMan 7111: because until recently adult responsibilities could be handled by a post-pubescent

DavidWrightSr: I’m reminded of Rod Walker when he returned to his family.

OakMan 7111: Or Red Planet – hasn’t the age of emancipation been raised to 25 on Earth?

ScottW469: but once we bestow ‘adulthood’ on them, they still need guidance

DenvToday: David, good point. The mayor of Cowpertown was suddenly a child again–in society’s view.

ddavitt: brb again; l crying lots, may need to go to bed

Heinleinsmof: People grow at diffrerent rates, too

OakMan 7111: When Matt in Space Cadet returns home – his parents treat him as a child

Heinleinsmof: But I’m curious about what was just said: what adult responsibilities can a bright 14 year old not handle?

DenvToday: None I can think of.

OakMan 7111: AIDS

DavidWrightSr: It seems that Mannie too, even though he was definitely no longer an adolescent had to pass through that ‘maturing’ to get to be a real ‘adult’

Heinleinsmof: If a 14 year old can handle Leukemia, he can handle AIDS

DavidWrightSr: Having a baby?

Heinleinsmof: And, as it happens, 14 years olds already are handling AIDS

OakMan 7111: he doesn’t have, imho, the time=binding sense that will get him to wait until he has a condom

DavidWrightSr: A lot of ‘adults’ don’t have that

Heinleinsmof: Right. Prolonged adolescence is a psychological disease of our era.

DavidWrightSr: I’m not one to talk. As I said earlier, I’ve never grown up :-)

DenvToday: David, of course. Throughout most of history, girls (women) started having children by age 14 or 15. They’d have one per year–most of which would die. And she would be dead before 40.

OakMan 7111: Prolonged adolescnese is a bad idea – treating a child as an adult is a bad idea, too

OakMan 7111: sorry, my typing is going – tired fingers

Heinleinsmof: People should take on responsibility for themselves as soon as they are able and willing to do so.

DenvToday: They didn’t have the luxury of long childhoods–life was short, and bread had to be earned.

Heinleinsmof: That does not mean to abandon

OakMan 7111: yagreed, but we are talking about who makes the judgement as to when they are ready and what standards they use

Heinleinsmof: Unfortunately, we want to treat people according to “general rules” whereas the reality is no general rule is going to be appropriate to all people

Heinleinsmof: Thta’s really not so difficult, Jon.

OakMan 7111: Oh really?

Heinleinsmof: Kids take on responibilities naturally according to the activities they are engaged in.

DenvToday: I absolutely agree. Totalitarianism can’t exist without treating people as groups rather than as individuals.

OakMan 7111: Kids take it on and then run like hell when its not as easy as they thought it would be

OakMan 7111: so do some adults and some kids don’t run

Heinleinsmof: They only do that when there is someone around to pick it up for them

Heinleinsmof: When they have to deal with their own messes starting out the gate, there is not so much of that.

Heinleinsmof: Yes. Individuals differ

Heinleinsmof: And part of what we as loving parents can do is give people second chances

OakMan 7111: So why don’t you treat your 11 year old nephew as an adult?

Heinleinsmof: Because he’s an 11 year old

OakMan 7111: and?

Heinleinsmof: You have to relate to individuals as individuals. So, also, because he’s not a category “11 year old.”

DenvToday: Getting back to TMIAHM, one thing has always intrigued me–the “conspirators” wanted Loonies to be self-ruling, yet they were shamelessly manipulating them.

Heinleinsmof: I don’t see it that way, Denv.

DavidWrightSr: Me neither.

Heinleinsmof: They used advertising techniques to present pertinent information.

Heinleinsmof: And then provided an outlet for sentiments that already existed.

DenvToday: I don’t say that’s a bad thing–any movement is always initiated by a few people.

Heinleinsmof: All they really did was to channel existing sentiments.

OakMan 7111: Didn’t they out and out lie sometimes?

DenvToday: That’s true, but the “peepul” always seemed to respond in anticipated ways.

Heinleinsmof: You’ve got it backwards — they shaped their presentations to achieve a desired result.

DenvToday: I agree–but that’s not inconsistent with what I said.

Heinleinsmof: because the sentiments were already there and just needed an appropriate outlet

Heinleinsmof: They didn’t create opinion

OakMan 7111: That last is true

Heinleinsmof: If they had to do that, there could not have been a revolution — at least not on that time scale.

Heinleinsmof: So from a “management” point of view, what they were doing was shaping the “crucible” so that peoples’ goals became clarified.

DenvToday: I agree with their manipulations–somebody had to do it. But mass-manipulation was used as a tool. de la Paz admits as much, and proudly.

DavidWrightSr: Sure they lied sometimes. and sometimes, (quite often actually), they didn’t tell all of the truth because it could have destroyed their chances. Like not telling Mannie about their true goal in meeting with the Authority

DavidWrightSr: because HE couldn’t lie effectively.

Heinleinsmof: Well, yes — telling the truth selectively is the very best way o –err, lying.

Heinleinsmof: of, er, lying. I meant

rjjusu has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: hello rij

DavidWrightSr: Hi Randy

ScottW469: hi rjjusu

rjjusu: Greetings and salutations all.

KultsiKN: Hello

Heinleinsmof: If you give people an opportunity to rest in their prejudices, it’s very unfortunate that they will take that route 9 times out of 9

ddavitt: I’m back. Hi Randy

Heinleinsmof: Yo

rjjusu: Hi Jane

rjjusu: Hi Bill

Heinleinsmof: I was about to suggest we are at the halfway point, and a break might be appropriate.

DavidWrightSr: It takes something powerful to break you out of your prejudices, (Like reading Heinlein did with me ) :-)

rjjusu: David, could you send me the log to the present time, so I can catch up?

ddavitt: They had to lie; if they had told them the future, the warden would have found out and squashed them. had to keep it secret or in cells until the last possible moment or, as it happened, marie Lyon’s death

DavidWrightSr: Sure hang on a minute

ddavitt: Break sounds good

DenvToday: I just thought it was interesting that de la Paz didn’t think the peepul “could handle the truth,” so to speak. If Adam Selene was exposed as really being Mike, he quite correctly predicted that their revolution would fall apart. Which expresses his (accurate) opinion that most people follow the herd.

DenvToday: Just an observation.

Heinleinsmof: Shall we take a short break and when we come back take up with The American Revolution (1776), the Second American Revolution (Revolt in 2100) and the Lunar Revolution (2076?)

ddavitt: But not on the same time line of course

Heinleinsmof: I’ve got 3:35; let’s come back around 3:42

rjjusu: I also have a somewhat OT request for comment on a statement I saw in a review yesterday, comparing David Gerrold and RAH.

OakMan 7111: Okay, then if we are on break, I’d like to announce that my weight loss continues – I have lost 30 lbs since Jan 5th

Heinleinsmof: /ga

DenvToday: Oak, congrats!!

DenvToday: Impressive!

ScottW469: cool!

OakMan 7111: :-D

ddavitt: Good job!

ddavitt: Wish i had your will power

DenvToday: Which diet are you on?

OakMan 7111: You have to like salad

KultsiKN: Jon, you’ve lost too much — your teeth are showing.

OakMan 7111: and more salad

OakMan 7111: did I mention salad?

ddavitt: I like it with dressing..

DenvToday: lol I do! Especially with lots of roquefort dressing slathered on it.

KultsiKN: w. or w/o dressing?

OakMan 7111: I like it with mustard

ddavitt: i have a sad feeling he means without

OakMan 7111: which is very low cal

DenvToday: Honeymoon salad: Lettuce alone without dressing.

ddavitt: Old one!:-)

DenvToday: Yep! lol

ddavitt: Like ‘i’m busy making mary”

DenvToday: rofl

ddavitt: They were in Around The World With Auntie mame

OakMan 7111: Well, eating it means that I have to buy new clothes to dress-in

ddavitt: Stuck in my mind

KultsiKN: our EU participation seems a bit thin tonite…

DenvToday: As is Oak.

OakMan 7111: yes and we have all given up eating beef, too

ddavitt: jani popped in on Thursday but it was the middle of the night for her

OakMan 7111: Randy – was it the new Gerold book?

KultsiKN: What we, paleface?

Heinleinsmof: Congrats, Jon

rjjusu: In a review of Bouncing Off The Moon, by David Gerrold, Tasha Robinson made the following comment: “Gerrold’s style here once again sharply echoes that of Robert Heinlein’s juvenile novels–it’s brisk, involving, entertaining, logical, clever, easy to read and absorb, and prone to shunting aside its characters, making them play second fiddle to the author’s scientific and speculative agenda.”

OakMan 7111: we being me and the EU

rjjusu: Somehow, I think Ms Robinson has missed the boat, because not only do the Novels, like TMIAHM have some great characterizations, so do the juveniles.

rjjusu: Yes

OakMan 7111: Tasha’s credentials are?

DavidWrightSr: Sounds like somethin I want to read :-)

KultsiKN: Jane, I could’ve done that as well — Good Friday and all.

Heinleinsmof: Hmm– the “shunting aside its characters” bit is in the mind of the reader, not in the book.

ddavitt: Why not a new Chttorr tho?!

OakMan 7111: I just grabbed the first one – its in PB – Jumping off the planet

ddavitt: True Kultsi

ddavitt: I’ll look out for them

rjjusu: her credentials are ??? Good question. It was in the latest issue of SciFi weekly

Heinleinsmof: This kind of bears on that discussion on rec.arts.sf.written, too — they have some peculiar notions there.

DavidWrightSr: Hey Gerrold would be a good guest author, I think. Anybody have any links to him?

ddavitt: I don’t recall Kip and Peewee being shunted anywhere…

rjjusu: And yes, when the heck are we going to see the fifth Chtorr novel? Hopefully in THIS century.

DenvToday: Is he the writer of The Trouble with Tribbles?

DavidWrightSr: except all over the Galaxy and beyond

ddavitt: No but he would be yes. And what about Robert Crais? Did that get anywhere?

rjjusu: Yes, Denv

DenvToday: thanks rjj

Heinleinsmof: This is something reviewers say when they find themselves thinking about the situations as much as the people. It’s a matter of conventions.

ddavitt: But they stayed centre stage

OakMan 7111: Orson Scott Card says if JOTP: “like Heinlein, Gerold invents a plausible future, then shows it through the eyes of real people whose personal struggles give urgency and meaning to the large events”

DenvToday: Sounds interesting.

ddavitt: The Chttorr books felt like Heinlein but different. I’d never make a reviewer :-)

Heinleinsmof: IMO Heinlein chose people whose lives are exemplary in some fashion — so it would not be possible to “shunt aside” the characters without shunting aside the story.

Heinleinsmof: But the reviewer tries to read it on only one level.

ddavitt: They ARE the story

Heinleinsmof: Exactly. Consider Libby in “Misfit.” He is an example of what is going on with humanity at large.

DavidWrightSr: Any book that I really like, (like Heinlein’s), I can’t analyze. I get too absorbed in the story to look at it critically.

Heinleinsmof: So the philosophical content is the story

DavidWrightSr: That’s my definition of a good book :-)

rjjusu: The thing is, sometimes a writer can “develop” a character with only a few items of description, because the character taps into well known archtypes, which draw the reader into the story, while allowing the reader to flesh out the character and make them their own. Does the Professor seem like a revolutionary or an academic, and is there any real difference, when one finds a good teacher?

Heinleinsmof: They aren’t separate. That’s why all the digressions “work” for Heinlein

ddavitt: He actaully is both according to what we are told

ddavitt: He loves learning

OakMan 7111: My impression is that’s rare

OakMan 7111: having both in one

Heinleinsmof: Lenin

OakMan 7111: and Trotsky

OakMan 7111: but not Stalin, nor Mao

DenvToday: It’s not the intelligence or (forgive me, competence) of Heinlein’s characters that make me love them so much–it’s the simple given that they will do the right thing when they can. It’s the 1950’s sensibility I love–that hard work and striving to learn and common sense are not considered unusual.

Heinleinsmof: Ho was, though, wasn’t he?

rjjusu: Jani and I had a long discussion about that last Thursday night/Friday morning. A real teacher is always a subversive, because they concentrate on teaching the student how to think, not just be a passive sponge absorbing facts.

Heinleinsmof: That’s why school boards have such trouble with teachers.

OakMan 7111: maybe its that there are just a lot of academics that are satisfied with the status quo – even if many of the much smaller number of real revolutionaries are academics

ddavitt: I had some like that; theyre the ones I remember

Heinleinsmof: The social function of a school is quite contrary to getting students to think.

DavidWrightSr: Our next discussion is on teachers, right Jane?

ddavitt: It’s to give us parents some peace in the day:-)

ddavitt: Yes, all ready to go with it

ScottW469: :-)

ddavitt: So don’t start talking about it now:-)

Heinleinsmof: And the last thing a weary parent needs is a child who is “thinking.”

ddavitt: Or asking ‘why’

rjjusu: That’s because schools are no longer places to learn, they are places to become social acclimated, and any education is secondary.

DavidWrightSr: Shut up kid, watch the boob tube!

ddavitt: yep!

DenvToday: rjj, I’ve always felt that learning facts is what needs to be done before you can really think. It’s like being an actor–you need to learn your lines before you can improvise with the character.

Heinleinsmof: They never really were places of education — they were always intended to be trade schools to make cogs in the manufacturing system.

OakMan 7111: “being a good boy is not disturbing momma’s nap”

ddavitt: Actually Eleanor is in a bookathon at the moment; being sponsored to read 10 hours in 3 weeks. a doddle

Heinleinsmof: “always” meaning since about 1910

ddavitt: Reading to her counts as well ( she’s only 5)

ddavitt: Going back to ITGO it was a similar plot wasn’t it?

OakMan 7111: My stepson wanted his mom and I to read to him until he was ten – though he was reading alone by 5 as well

Heinleinsmof: I think they are both similar to the American revolution, though we see different aspects.

ddavitt: But their secret weapon not so necessary

rjjusu: Okay, Jane, I’ll hold my “professional” professor opinions until the designated time. Of course, you are right Denv – learning facts is an essential part of education, it is the yin to the yang of figuring out what they MEAN and what you DO with them, hopefully tempered by the wisdom displayed by many of the characters we know and love.

ddavitt: The impersonation of Scudder was something Mike did over and over in Moon

ddavitt: I mean, he impersonated the warden, Mannie

ddavitt: Thanks Randy:-)

Heinleinsmof: And he impersonated Adam Selene.

ddavitt: But of course

OakMan 7111: At least he didn’t use transmutation

ddavitt: Except he invented him so it’s not quite the same

ddavitt: And he didn’t like him which is interesting

Heinleinsmof: It was to him!

ddavitt: Mike was still the joke loving computer au fond

OakMan 7111: I always figured that Adam Selen came across like Walter Cronkheit

ddavitt: Mannie weshed on his promise there a bit

ddavitt: welshed

ddavitt: Never completed the humour survey

ddavitt: And that’s like Mike; he wanted to get what humour was to become human in SIASL

ddavitt: Thematic echo maybe

Heinleinsmof: And eventually I suppose he took the Athene/Minerva option.

ddavitt: I think that was implied

ddavitt: But we never got to see him:-(

DavidWrightSr: The old ‘Pinochio’ bit :-)

Heinleinsmof: CAT has the feel of “middle chapters” of a larger story

ddavitt: Yes.

DenvToday: Whenever a story about human cloning is on the news, I always think of Athene and Minerva.

ddavitt: Not laz and Lor?

Heinleinsmof: Bet Mike-human looked a lot like Manny.

DenvToday: Them too. But I think of the ability to grow bodies in tanks…

ddavitt: Anyone seen The Sixth day film?

ddavitt: For an Arnie film it had some interesting questions about the ethics of cloning

ddavitt: And lots of bodies in tanks

Heinleinsmof: It’s irritating to me how expert we have become at forgetting our heritage.

KultsiKN: Good question, Jane. Not Laz & Lor, although their conception is closer to today’s knowhow.

ddavitt: you make it sound deliberate

Heinleinsmof: The issue of human cloning was discussed in great detail in SF 20 years ago.

OakMan 7111: I remember a book by Jerry Sohl in the ’60s – called the Haploids

Heinleinsmof: At a much higher level of sophistication than the news.

ddavitt: the Arnie film made it too easy; can do it in hours, all memeories on a disc, indistinguishable from original

OakMan 7111: it was the first mention of cloning I can remember

ddavitt: And of course, the bad guys never died.

Heinleinsmof: What good has sf been if all the “modeling of the future” is never referenced again?

DavidWrightSr: There seems to be quite a dispute over the actual possibilities of cloning humans. I heard some say that there is just too much else to learn at this point and that most current attempts are failures. Then another lab says that they have tremendous success most of the time.

Heinleinsmof: Different definitions, I’m sure.

OakMan 7111: I must go – someone at the door, if Im not backk…bye

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: I meant with animals, not with humans.

Heinleinsmof: Nobody knows for sure how to turn off the telemeric clock, so the first group says “not enough knowledge” but they can get cell reproduction, so “great success.”

ddavitt: well the Arnie film was less about cloning new people than replacing originals with exact copies

DenvToday: But think of what will be possible a century from now!

Heinleinsmof: If we survive the next 30 years, the future after that will be unimaginable.

ddavitt: we will survive Bill.

ddavitt: Well, I will anyway. I want to see what happens!

Heinleinsmof: Us — true, most likely; but not our culture.

DenvToday: Funny you should mention that. I just reread Expanded Universe, and RAH’s “world-saving” articles that never were published.

DavidWrightSr: It will be imaginable, just not what we see in our imaginations.

ddavitt: Culture is always changing; unhealthy not to

Heinleinsmof: I’m personally eagerly looking forward to performing a slingshot maneuver at the Singularity.

KultsiKN: Have you got a black hole handy?

DavidWrightSr: I recall seeing, in the 70’s, a prediction based on various trend curves, that we would be virtually immortal by the year 2000. Hmm, doesn’t feel that way yet.

ddavitt: I just want to see earth from space with my own eyes and step on another planet

Heinleinsmof: Not a Schwartzchild singularity — the technological singularity.

Heinleinsmof: Such modest ambitions!

ddavitt: Not much to ask…it could have been possible…

Heinleinsmof: You may thank Richard Nixon.

ddavitt: If the curve had continued

DenvToday: lol David. Weren’t we supposed to be driving air-cars, warning silvery jump suits and living in 5,000 ft. art-deco towers?

ddavitt: it would have been a certainty for Eleanor and lauren

DenvToday: wearing, that is

DavidWrightSr: And traveling well above the speed-of-light according to the same trend curves.

ddavitt: I liked the way Heinlein looked at ways of making housework easier in his articles and Door. That’s an overlooked area

Heinleinsmof: Has anybody been reading Greg Egan’s stuff?

ddavitt: Know the name, that’s all

DenvToday: One thread that runs through all of RAH’s work–the importance of modern plumbing.

DenvToday: I’ve always wanted to know EXACTLY what the heck is inside one of those ‘freshers!

KultsiKN: Oh yes! Just take a look at them UK pipes!

ddavitt: hey!:-)

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of ‘Its great to be back’. They had problems with their plumbing when they returned to earth. One of the many ‘minor’ inconveniences they had to put up with

ddavitt: Pretty much the whole house I think Denv…

DenvToday: lol Jane. Probably so.

Heinleinsmof: It’s funny how the housing revolution he anticipated didn’t happen. How come?

rjjusu: Government took away the incentive.

ddavitt: Building regs? lack of raw material? space?

rjjusu: Too many regulations and too much social engineering.

DenvToday: rjj, you’re right to a great extent. Zoning laws discourage development.

DavidWrightSr: He said that building regs wouldn’t hold back people when they really needed it, but apparently it or something else did.

ddavitt: But I don’t want to see all the green go

DenvToday: As do the thousands upon thousands of regulations.

Heinleinsmof: We seem to be wandering afield again. How about a re-set

rjjusu: Well, Jane wanted her green, where else but in a_feld?

rjjusu: afield

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: What were the other two questions, you mentioned in the leadoff Bill? Did we cover them

Heinleinsmof: One of the things that impressed me on the rec.arts.sf thread was the assumptions agreeing with Panshin’s idea that Heinlein reached a peak with the juveniles and then declined threeafter.


DenvToday: That’s just plain silly, IMHO.

ddavitt: Well, I like them best but I wouldn’t agree with that

ddavitt: They were different is all

ddavitt: ( notice my moon talk there)

ScottW469: well…i have to run and help the wife with dinner…

Heinleinsmof: I disagree violently. Not only do I regard his best work as Stranger and after, reaching a kind of peak in TEFL, I also think after 1980 every single work was as complex and literary as Stranger.

rjjusu: He reached a peak, but it was only a local maxima, not a global one. Often when one reaches a peak, he can finally see there are other mountains ahead.

ddavitt: I’m eating mine as I type

DenvToday: If RAH had written nothing else but TMIAHM and TEFL, that would be enough to have established him as one of the greats.

Heinleinsmof: He was getting better and better with age.

ddavitt: Night Scott

ScottW469: everyone have a great weekend

DenvToday: I absolutely agree.

DenvToday: Bye Scott.

DavidWrightSr: Breaking out of the juveniles gave him the room to write a lot that he couldn’t have gotten away with earlier. And some people don’t care for ‘new’ ideas, especially from someone they thought they had categorized.

Heinleinsmof: I think Job, for example, was his most “literary” work

ScottW469 has left the room.

ddavitt: But that would only hold true for those who know Cabell Bill

ddavitt: Most people would miss it. i know i did

rjjusu: Breaking away from the juveniles just meant that he was finally out from under the thumb of miss grundy

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think so — the Twain references are even more pronounced, and those can be widely recognized.

DenvToday: Job should be read by every seminary student. And everybody else who lets a “higher power” mandate his acttions.

ddavitt: Again, not all SF readers know Twain

DavidWrightSr: I personally like the juveniles better too, but then I am not, as I have often said, into ‘literary’ aspects. I enjoy all of his later stuff, just not as much as I did the earlier ones.

Heinleinsmof: Forget sf readers — I’m talking world literature. Or American letters, at the very least.

ddavitt: You may be over rating some of the readers and all the reviewers

rjjusu: But, those that understand SF is also literature would recognize those authors as literary figures of merit also.

ddavitt: But litry types don’t read SF; viscious circle

Heinleinsmof: Yes — it’s the paradigm problem. It’s only sf so there’s no point even in looking at the apparatus of literary criticism.

DavidWrightSr: Some litry types do, as evidenced by The Heinlein Journal :-)

ddavitt: That’s the problem we come up against all the time; as do all the genres

Heinleinsmof: Thank you — but it is an uphill battle for recognition.

rjjusu: Yes, most literary types don’t have a pair of dimes to rub together so they can buy the good stuff

Heinleinsmof: (Manfully ignoring that!)

DenvToday: There’s just something a bit too…definite about RAH’s work for most literary types (i.e. leftists). If it isn’t obscure or dripping with cultural relativism, it just isn’t “evolved.”

Heinleinsmof: Ah, but Heinlein does drip with cultural relativism — the the anthropological sense.

DenvToday: Perhaps I should have said moral relativism.

Heinleinsmof: Ah. I see.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I’ve been saying that Heinlein is one of the world’s great writers of literature for the last 40-50 years. But that is strictly from a gut feeling. I have no expertise to back it up.

rjjusu: I’m not so sure that is the problem as much as the fact that reading Heinlein in depth requires one to re-examine ones assumptions, always a painful thing for someone who “knows” what is right.

DavidWrightSr: I can only compare it with the things that I have been told are great literature and it compares very favorably to me.

DenvToday: But you must admit, no matter the culture (Manny is Latin, de la Paz is Peruvian, I think)–they do tend to think like Americans.

Heinleinsmof: It’s certainly true that Heinlein challenges the cultural trend of the 20th century.

rjjusu: There is one standard that I am sure Heinlein’s works will meet – they will endure.

Heinleinsmof: I think he anticipated that western liberalism would come to dominate the future.

Heinleinsmof: Which is, come to think of it, what actually came about.

DenvToday: rjj, Amen.

Heinleinsmof: It’s true, I think, that his sales are probably as great or as greater now as/than they were during his lifetime — in the period between books, let’s say.

Heinleinsmof: I suspect that he is going to hold popularity during the next 30 years or so.

DavidWrightSr: Are there any groups like alt.fan.heinlein for any others of that period?

ddavitt: That’s encouraging

Heinleinsmof: Oh, sure. There are newsgroups for hundreds of writers.

ddavitt: Asimov’s one is quality but low posts

Heinleinsmof: The major sf writers all have newsgroups

ddavitt: numerically I mean

rjjusu: I think he anticipated that western liberalism would dominate, but I don’t think most people understood/understand what that means. Which is not surprising. If they did they would practice the fine art of prognostication by letting things go to the logical extreme and realize what that implies.

DavidWrightSr: Betcha the ones like Asimov’s and Clarke don’t generate the type of traffic that AFH does.

ddavitt: No, they don’t

ddavitt: Nor do they crop up on rasfw as much

Heinleinsmof: Same is true of all kinds of demographic dimensions. Look up Asimov sales on Ebay versus Heinlein auctions.

Heinleinsmof: I think he’s at least as important a writer of English lit as Sinclair Lewis — with the advantage that he didn’t drop off into dotage the way Lewis did.

ddavitt: Why, out of all the boarding school books of the early part of the last century, do three names dominate the market in collectibles?

ddavitt: Quality books are like cream; they flota up and stay there

DavidWrightSr: Which are those Jane?

ddavitt: Oxenham, Brent Dyer and Bruce are big names

DavidWrightSr: Never heard of any of them :-)

rjjusu: Don’t forget, the scum also rises to the top of the pond, too.

ddavitt: Joy’s New Adventure can go for $800

KultsiKN: Nor me

ddavitt: Not surprising

DenvToday: I’d give a lot for a Heinlein first edition. I wonder if e-Bay ever has them.

ddavitt: More for girls:-)

Heinleinsmof: Sure — every two or three days something show sup.

Heinleinsmof: Call it once a week.

DenvToday: I’ll keep an eye out. Thanks.

ddavitt: Elinor Brent Dyer wrote ober 60 Chalet School books and invented the slang adjective, ‘smashing”

rjjusu: Denv, are you a Denver resident?

DenvToday: Yes, I am rjj.

Heinleinsmof: You have to be careful about some of them — the Putnam’s Orphans of the Sky isn’t a true first; it’s a first American ed.

DenvToday: I’ll remember that.

DavidWrightSr: I’d give anything to have a complete set of Heinlein in quality hardback, but I understand that the way contracts have been done, that is very unlikely.

ddavitt: A uniform edition you mean?

DavidWrightSr: Yes

ddavitt: That would be good; my paperbacks are very worn

DenvToday: Wow…that would be fantastic.

DavidWrightSr: Or at the very least, the juveniles

Heinleinsmof: It’s not impossible. Easton Press has put out more than a dozen of them.

Heinleinsmof: But I don’t like their fake hubbing.

DenvToday: I didn’t know that!

DavidWrightSr: hubbing?

Heinleinsmof: They are quite expensive — they sell for about $75 each on EBay.

ddavitt: btw; slightly OT but I have contributed several Heinlein related items to the Invisible library

DenvToday: Which work had the largest printing?

Heinleinsmof: in the middle ages, books were bound with cords so the spine shows the cords.

DenvToday: First printing, that is.

DavidWrightSr: Oh yeah. Not too expensive was another criteria :-)

rjjusu: I’d (almost) give my firstborn male child for a searchable CD of all the works, so I could cross correlate items when looking for quotes.

ddavitt: Plus lots by other authors. It didn’t have any Heinlein links at all which just wasn’t good enough:-)

Heinleinsmof: I think they could be done for about $30 each with a subscription. Not too bad.

Heinleinsmof: A CD ROM is much more likely than a uniform edition.

rjjusu: I’ve already got two or three book copies of every one of the works, but a CD ROM … that would be research heaven.

DenvToday: A scanner and a rewritable drive, and you could do it.

ddavitt: When the Invisible library website has been updated, I’ll post a link to it on afh. It’s a great site, with a list of all the imaginary books in authors works. i got lots of new authors to try when I browsed it

Heinleinsmof: I’d love to see one complete with the juvenilia in the UCSC archives and the unreprinted works, too, but that’s not likely to happen.

DavidWrightSr: I have been thinking of such a project for several years. Something I would like to do after I retire. The problem would be to keep it from being a cheap way to get illegal copies of RAH’s works and still do the job that I would like it to.

DenvToday: It wouldn’t be contravening the copywright if you kept it only for yourself.

DenvToday: copyright

rjjusu: I know Denv, I’ve thought about it, but I’m pretty busy right now, and I too have concerns about proliferation of illegal copies and copyright violations.

Heinleinsmof: There are ways to arrange it — the most “market efficient” way would be to sell it at cost of reproduction pluys cost of royalty, cutting out all the publisher’s associated costs.

Heinleinsmof: I.e., without the huge middleman’s markup, the CDs could be cheap enough to make it not worthwhile to make pirate copies.

DavidWrightSr: My thoughts would be that it would be impossible to actually print out an entire work, but have it all in a database whereby individual things could be searched for and listed.

KultsiKN: How much might the royalty part be?

Heinleinsmof: That would be a matter of contract arrangement with Mrs. Heinlein — impossible to predict.

DenvToday: It might be a project for Baen or Tor.

ddavitt: I have to go now; night everyone, see you nextime!

DavidWrightSr: Night Jane

Heinleinsmof: Have fun.

DenvToday: Byeeeee Jane.

ddavitt has left the room.

rjjusu: see you, Jane.

KultsiKN: Bye Jane

DavidWrightSr: I got it out before she left. Yea!

DenvToday: lol

KultsiKN: She’s one fast lass…

rjjusu: Frustrating, isn’t it. Someone says goodbye, and then they don’t stick around for 10 minutes so they can hear everyone else say goodbye.

Heinleinsmof: But a complete set of Heinlein paperbacks would be about $300 right now — a $125 CD ROM would not be out of the question; the average kind of royalty for tht kind of thing might be $13, plus $2 for repro — say $15 or $16 sold direct.

DenvToday: lol Yep rjj

Heinleinsmof: Just back-of-envelope calculations.

DenvToday: Has somebody ever suggested this to Tor?

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think that’s the kind of thing Tor is interested in doing. I have friends there, and they haven’t approached the agent.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve been meaning for a long time to mention it to Mrs. H., but have never had the nerve :-)

Heinleinsmof: Similarly, it’s kind of out of Baen’s ambit, too.

DenvToday: Too bad. It would be wonderful.

KultsiKN: Oh. We always use cigarette boxes.

KultsiKN: For calculations

rjjusu: That doesn’t sound out of line at all. I paid $100 for a collection if IEEE Microwave theory & techniques journals 1953-1998. Worth every penny and then some.

rjjusu: Search capability is worth money in and of itself, when you are doing research.

Heinleinsmof: There’s a set of CD ROMS with the entire Library of Congress on them that sells for about the same, IIRC.

AGplusone has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome David

rjjusu: ‘Lo Bill

Heinleinsmof: ‘lo David.

rjjusu: Lo David

AGplusone: Hi, all!

DenvToday: Hi David!

KultsiKN: Hi David!

DavidWrightSr: The Entire Library of Congress. That sounds incredible

Heinleinsmof: We’re kind of winding down — talking about an ideal CD Rom project. Incidentally, that’s one of the first thing mentioned at the first organizational meeting of the Heinlein Society in San Diego 3 years ago.

DenvToday: Not only that, it goes “Shhhhh” at you.

Heinleinsmof: LOL

rjjusu: I have my doubts about that. The entire National Geogaphic takes about 30 CDs and costs around $100. The LoC? PPoR

rjjusu: :-)

DenvToday: National Georgraphic is graphics heavy, isn’t it?

Heinleinsmof: It may not have been $100 — it may have been $500; I misremember the details — just something I saw a few years ago.

AGplusone: graphics takes room

KultsiKN: P’raps their titles?

rjjusu: Yes it is, Denv

DavidWrightSr: I bet it’s only an index

rjjusu: I would agree with David,

Heinleinsmof: Could have been the catalog, I suppose.

Heinleinsmof: But as I recall,the ad pictured something that looked like a tackle box to hold the whole set.

rjjusu: I doubt if you could get the entire LoC on 100 DVDs. They have a lot of publications.

Heinleinsmof: I wonder if the size of the Library of Congress is doubling at the same rate as the poopulation?

AGplusone: be horrible if it isn’t

DavidWrightSr: That’s a lot of ‘poop’

rjjusu: And I will manfully refrain from comments….

Heinleinsmof: Yes, indeed — why I didn’t correct that typo.

Heinleinsmof: I am on the ranch; it is a subject much on the mind.

Heinleinsmof: To say nothing of the implements…

DavidWrightSr: You are on retreat?

Heinleinsmof: Fleeing.

rjjusu: Well, there are a lot of cattle that read predigested cud – only one thing comes of that…

Heinleinsmof: Actually, this is a scouting operation.

Heinleinsmof: I”m moving to Santa Rosa at the end of the month.

DavidWrightSr: That was the retreat I was thinking of

Heinleinsmof: Yes — a friend has offered a house at the ranch (let me not say Outbuilding) to do a major writing project.

DavidWrightSr: Is that the book that someone mentioned?

rjjusu: Not to be confused with outhouse….

Heinleinsmof: Depends on which book someone mentioned. The Stranger teaching manual is finished and has been turned in.

rjjusu: When will the Stranger manual be available for purchase?

Heinleinsmof: (Well, we were talking about poop on the ranch…

Heinleinsmof: Jim is talking about a June 1 publication date.

DavidWrightSr: Someone, can’t recall who said that you and he were writing a book, but you were doing the most of the work. Thornton? Can’t remember

Heinleinsmof: I haven’t been to the NitroPress website recently, but he might have an ad up now.

Heinleinsmof: Possible — Andy was online with us last Thursday.

DavidWrightSr: Wasn’t there yet, but Jim told me earlier today to keep an eye on it. Changes were coming soon.

rjjusu: And does anyone have any advance info on the new book that was derived from Owensby’s dissertation?

Heinleinsmof: When I couldn’t get on for 2 bhours.

AGplusone: I believe he has an ad regarding Owenby

DavidWrightSr: Jim said that Phil’s book wouldn’t be available until mid-summer most likely.

Heinleinsmof: Owenby rewrote it extensively. It’s in press, too.

Heinleinsmof: I suspect they will both be availably by worldcon time.

Heinleinsmof: The Heinlein Cyclopedia will not, however.

DavidWrightSr: He indicated that yours and one other might be available sooner.

rjjusu: Yes, I saw the ad yesterday, when I was at the site. Just wondering if anyone here (hint, hint) had any comments from an advance look.

Heinleinsmof: David Silver has read it.

rjjusu: And ……

Heinleinsmof: SAcademy has read it, but I don’t think she will comment.

DavidWrightSr: Speak up O metallic one

KultsiKN: LOL

rjjusu: I’m going to buy it anyway, but another viewpoint is always welcome and useful.

Heinleinsmof: I know Gifford is going to get it listed with Amazon.com, so they will need reader reviews.

DavidWrightSr: I’d be happy to offer a layman’s opinion (hint)

rjjusu: I’d be happy to receive a layman’s opinion

AGplusone: http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah-po.htm “metallic one” indeed

DenvToday: To be honest, I’ve really enjoyed the Gifford books so far.

rjjusu: You prefer silvery one?

AGplusone: I think it’s worthwhile, and well-done; and I’m looking forward to reading the revision he’s done.

AGplusone: I read the PhD thesis and expect the revision to be better

Heinleinsmof: Ah. Yes, there were some inferences that are not warranted. There are a few mistakes, but not that many, considering.

DenvToday: I’m glad to hear that! I spend an enjoyable evening yesterday reading it. too, read the whole thing in one long evening and early morning.

rjjusu: Of course, being the eternal optimist, a half loaf is better than none. If someone starts real research and literary criticism, then others will come along to correct and add to it.

AGplusone: I’m looking forward to the revision in viewpoint, the only parts of Phil Owenby’s work I didn’t like were the obligatory parts in there to satisfy the peculiar requirements of a committtee

AGplusone: in there …. committee of scholars

rjjusu: Peculiar is certainly the right word, when dealing with PhD committees – spoken by one who’s been there.

Heinleinsmof: Yes, exactly — the book was written as a doctoral dissertation. Phillip says his doctoral committee wouldn’t approve the book he wanted to write, so he put that in as the appendix.

AGplusone: too much academic buzz wording time wasting in getting to the points which are really worthwhile

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of the CD project, I would like it to include things like RAH:ARC and Phils book and even, God forbid, that Panshin thing just so people can see how far off he is supposed to be

Heinleinsmof: With the Stranger book, we tried first and foremost to point out what was there – most of it seems to have been invisible to the prior commentators. And we tried to follow up on at least 2 levels deep on the major subjects.

rjjusu: How long of a monograph did this turn out to be, Bill?

AGplusone: [but once you plow through the introduction Owenby had to write to satisfy the committee, it’s good as gold

Heinleinsmof: About 43,000 words including a glossary and a long appendix on the character names.

rjjusu: Ahh, the appendix may turn out to be the most valuable item….

Heinleinsmof: No — it’s interesting, but I guarantee the most valuable stuff is in the text.

AGplusone: some of Phil’s appendices were worthwhile too … stuff the committee didn’t want evidently

DavidWrightSr: Is Phil teaching now? Where?

Heinleinsmof: I took four or five critical modalities into consideration and spent some time talking about myth and anthropology and comparative religion and the nature of satire. It starts to lay a foundation for getting Heinlein considered as a literary figure.

Heinleinsmof: I think he’s with the TVA, isn’t he?

AGplusone: Yes

DavidWrightSr: TVA ? Tennessee Valley Authority?

AGplusone: yep

rjjusu: Well, then I’m sure he writes with authority.

Heinleinsmof: Only in the Tennessee Valley

DenvToday: lol

Heinleinsmof: I particularly liked his appendix relating all the different philosophical and political opinions into a complete specturm

DavidWrightSr: What in the world would a Ph.D in literature, specializing in Heinlein, be doing with them. Where does he live by the way. I’m near that area

Heinleinsmof: trum

rjjusu: plus or minus Kentucky windage, since it’s so near.

Heinleinsmof: He’s not a lit specialist — he’s an adult education specialist.

AGplusone: he did a lot of work to prepare the way toward where I’d like to see writing on Heinlein go

Heinleinsmof: The doctoral dissertation was on Heinlein as an educator of adults.

AGplusone: “From biographical details to exhaustive evaluation of Heinlein’s educational efforts and philosphy in both his own voice and the voices of his characters, Owenby builds an amazing portrait of the science fiction author, educator and philosopher who helped shape America’s course to the stars.”

rjjusu: That’s a useful profession, but if we want him to educate the other literary critics, he really needs to be a-dolt education specialist….

Heinleinsmof: urk. We should all be a-dolt (doltless, it’s true)

Heinleinsmof: No dolt about it.

AGplusone: Talks a lot about the educational state of mind of America, comparing what Heinlein was doing, with a mindset in adult education that may be, alas, lost

AGplusone: since the 1930s, 1940s, and so …

rjjusu: Sounds very interesting. I

AGplusone: It is!

rjjusu: ‘m looking forward to reading it.

DenvToday: I have a pal who’s a dealer in Vegas. He had a-dealt education.

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, I see it is 5:00 and we have reached the end of our announced session.

AGplusone: Archie comic books?

rjjusu: Since I’m now educating pre-adults these days, anything that provides insight into the process is valuable.

DenvToday: Good evening all. Great discusssion, as always.

DavidWrightSr: I was hoping to get that one for this year’s birthday, but it looks like it will be out too late.

Heinleinsmof: Fun.

AGplusone: Shows how Heinlein’s writings consistently follow that pattern going back to the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s ….

rjjusu: Don’t forget Arbor Day!

Heinleinsmof: Move your birthday to later in the year.

AGplusone: self-education

Heinleinsmof: Or declare an unbirthday.

DenvToday: Pearl Arbor Day?

DavidWrightSr: Can’t do that. I have trouble enough remembering where it is now.

Heinleinsmof: Oh, well, if you declare an unbirthday you don’t have to remember anything.

rjjusu: Then do it on the installment plan, and have some birthday every month.

AGplusone: You lose a year of memory?

Heinleinsmof: That’s it — have 2 hours of birthday every month for a year.

rjjusu: Yep!

AGplusone: Sounds like premature alzheimers

DavidWrightSr: Interesting.

rjjusu: Two hours at the bookstore – what could be better?

DenvToday: Just the birthday cake, ice cream and presents part. That shouldn’t take more than 2 hours.

Heinleinsmof: Or you could have 4.8 minutes every single day!

DenvToday: Hmmmmm….it disturbs me that you would know that. lol

AGplusone: enough time to have a bowl of ice cream daily

DavidWrightSr: Maybe I’ll just go ahead and get a couple of years subscription to THJ :-)

KultsiKN: no way

Heinleinsmof: Oh, I didn’t know that — I rough-calculated it in my head.

AGplusone: I eat ice cream very fast

DenvToday: Impressive nonetheless.

DavidWrightSr: David Lamb?

rjjusu: having a computer at hand is great, isn’t it. Just ask Starman Jones.

Heinleinsmof: Yeah — well that one apparently weighed several tons

DavidWrightSr: and had to be programmed in ‘Binary’.

rjjusu: Nope, that 4 pound one in his head.

DenvToday: lol rjj. You want to keep yelling at them, “Get a 3-buck calculator!”

Heinleinsmof: Oh, yes. That one.

AGplusone: My first computer programming was for one that looked like it weighed several tons … IBM 1401

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, I must off — I am mess sergeant today.

DavidWrightSr: Night Bill

SAcademy: Goodnight all.

DenvToday: Night Bill.

rjjusu: Have fun with your mess, Sgt.!

KultsiKN: I’m off. C ya, folks! G’night!

Heinleinsmof: Thanks all for coming.

AGplusone: go cut some wood, Bill … don’t cut your foot

Heinleinsmof: Ciao and chow

SAcademy has left the room.

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

KultsiKN has left the room.

DenvToday: Night everybody! Thanks for putting up with my opinions.

AGplusone: G’nite Ron

DenvToday: Night :-)

DavidWrightSr: If there is nothing else I’m going to close out the log.

rjjusu: Later, all

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: G’nite Dave, Randy

DavidWrightSr: Night David, Randy

AGplusone has left the room.

rjjusu: Goodnight, Gracie

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:08 P.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday April 12, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday April 12, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Thursday April 12 and Saturday April 14, 2001

Subject: Let’s Give a Helping Hand to rec.arts.sf.written and pick up where their discussion of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress Left Off.

On one of the newsgroups recently (rec.arts.sf.written) there was a rather nasty and particularly useless thread about Heinlein’s personality, during the course of which one of the more sensible participants, Ahasuerus, mentioned that their discussion of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress some years previously had left him with some outstanding questions. This piqued the interest of other participants, who prevailed upon him to recap three questions. They all have to do with why Heinlein might have chosen to do certain things in the novel the way he did them, rather than some other way. As this is a slightly different slant on things than we usually take up, I thought it might be interesting to pick up Ahasuerus’ outstanding questions as our starting point this time.

Ahasuerus wrote:

Well, I don’t have a copy of the MISTRESS discussion that we had in May-June of 1995 here, but basically I was wondering why Heinlein chose to structure the book the way he did.

(1) We know from the book that the revolution eventually semi-failed since life on Luna is “now” (i.e. at the time the memoirs are being written) more tightly controlled by the government than before the whole mess started. Personally, I find little bits of info about what happened after the “victory” scattered throughout the text one of the more attractive things about the novel, but it is so subtle that apparently a lot of people miss that whole layer. Why did Heinlein keep it in the background? Did he underestimate his audience? Was it done on purpose?

(2) MISTRESS disposes of the whole “evolution vs. revolution” argument by pulling a deus ex machina (an obvious pun that I am sure RAH intended). Thanks to Mike, the would-be plotters *know* beyond the shadow of a doubt that Luna is doomed under the current system, that there is no time for evolution to work, and are, therefore, forced to embark on an extremely dangerous course of action that otherwise they might have hesitated to take. I have little doubt that Heinlein realized that he was “cheating”, but chose to anyway. Why?

(3) The Scarler Pimpernel stuff. Revolutions are a nasty dangerous business, they come complete with agents provocateurs, extra-legal “executions” of traitors, civil wars, dictators, etc. Sometimes they may be the lesser of two evils, but they are hardly the buffonade that we see in MISTRESS. And, indeed, Heinlein foresees these objections and neatly disposes of them with… you guessed it, Mike’s help. As soon as Prof and Co have Mike on their side, they are in effective control of Luna, the rest is just a spectacle for the benefit of the oppressed masses, who need to be convinced that they actually had something to do with the coup, and Earth, which is the only real check on Mike’s absolute authority on Luna. This isn’t objectionable in itself, since any novel is allowed one deus ex machina, but the emotional result is that Heinlein effectively glorifies revolutions as fun for the whole family, whereas in reality they are anything but. Why?

End of Ahasuerus’s remarks.

These questions prompted a longish set of exchanges which I won’t summarize because I’d like us to take a step back from the several assumptions that underly these questions, because they are, to put it bluntly, a little peculiar.

The way I read the story, the purpose of the revolution was to get out from under the absentee landlord control of the Lunar Authority, which the revolution accomplished. I can’t see a “semi-failure” if they achieved self-determination. What you do with self-determination is another issue — and another book. Self-determination achieved the ends the conspirators started out with, and that’s the entire goal of the revolution. I see this view reinforced by some significant developments toward the end: Heinlein got rid of Prof and got rid of Mycroft so the Loonies could be have control of their own destinies.

Similarly I can’t see the set up that gets the core cell together as in any sense literary “cheating.” All like core groups will be in possession of special knowledge — and in fact, both Prof and Wyoh were already conversant with the knowledge that they had a limited time to achieve the goal of lunar independence; the knowledge was widely dispersed in the underground movements at the time. Mike’s calculations simply indicated the time was shorter than they thought — so short, in fact, that the entirely unpolitical Manny was galvanized into action. Furthermore, Mike’s special status was not used to convince the rest of the Loonies of the special urgency. The cabal made use of Mike’s special abilities to catalyze and channel the existing sentiments among Loonies

This addresses the third question as well. The Loonies freed themselves. Prof and Mike did “shape the crucible” of the revolution — for example, making sure that the embargo lasted long enough that Lunar farmers knew they could do without the Authority market and opening up technical markets for services that would pull resources away from farming — but it greatly misrepresents the situation Heinlein portrayed to suppose that the Loonies were simply puppets under Mike’s control or that of the Central Cell. I think, without minimizing the special qualities of Mike, Heinlein is more likely to have thought of Prof and Mike as shaving the odds in an exceptionally intelligent way. They loom large in Manny’s story, but the Lunar revolution is larger than the story of Manny’s family (fun for the whole of it).

It was fairly obvious to me on first reading that the Lunar revolution is closely patterned on the American Revolution — which was also not won by the Cabal in Philadelphia, however frighteningly intelligent and high-Enlightenment-tech they were.

In short, I think these particular questions and objections might not be about features of the book — they might be “artifacts” of approaching the book with extraneous agendas — or artifacts of the paradigms, which is to say the readers and not the book. Certainly at least some of them disappear if you accept the premises of the book as stated rather than supposing that Heinlein must actually have meant something other than what he wrote.

Look forward to seeing you in two weeks.

On 04 Apr 2001 05:26:22 GMT, bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>Thursday April 12 and Saturday April 14, 2001

>Subject: Let’s Give a Helping Hand to rec.arts.sf.written and pick up where

>their discussion of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress Left Off.


>because I’d like us to take a step back from the several assumptions that

>underly these questions, because they are, to put it bluntly, a little



>The way I read the story, the purpose of the revolution was to get out from

>under the absentee landlord control of the Lunar Authority, which the

>revolution accomplished. I can’t see a “semi-failure” if they achieved

>self-determination. What you do with self-determination is another issue —

>and another book. Self-determination achieved the ends the conspirators

>started out with, and that’s the entire goal of the revolution. I see this

>view reinforced by some significant developments toward the end: Heinlein g

ot >rid of Prof and got rid of Mycroft so the Loonies could be have control of

>their own destinies.


I saw it as Manny recollecting an earlier time. I caught the references to times after the revolution as showing that time had passed and the Lunar society had evolved, perhaps in ways Manny wasn’t entirely comfortable with.

>Similarly I can’t see the set up that gets the core cell together as in any

>sense literary “cheating.” All like core groups will be in possession of

>special knowledge — and in fact, both Prof and Wyoh were already conversant

>with the knowledge that they had a limited time to achieve the goal of lunar

>independence; the knowledge was widely dispersed in the underground movements

>at the time. Mike’s calculations simply indicated the time was shorter than

>they thought — so short, in fact, that the entirely unpolitical Manny was

>galvanized into action. Furthermore, Mike’s special status was not used to

>convince the rest of the Loonies of the special urgency. The cabal made use of

>Mike’s special abilities to catalyze and channel the existing sentiments among



I thought the core cell, and Mike, were used to simplify the story. A revolution would involve thousands of people, all having fairly important parts. By telling the story in the 1st person, he only needs to include the parts Manny was involved in. Mike simplifies it even more by having the ‘command and control’ system be effectively one person. So it seemed to me that besides creating an interesting character in Mike, the story was simple enough to make good reading.

To diverge slightly, I remember reading that during the coup against Gorbachev, the phone lines were disabled to keep the Soviet government from being able to coordinate opposition to the coup. They forgot data communications lines, which meant that IT folks promptly begin relaying messages using internal and internet lines for communication, which helped coordinate resistance until the coup collapsed.

So the idea is reasonable, even without an AI to control the networks.

>This addresses the third question as well. The Loonies freed themselves. Prof

>and Mike did “shape the crucible” of the revolution — for example, making sure

>that the embargo lasted long enough that Lunar farmers knew they could do

>without the Authority market and opening up technical markets for services that

>would pull resources away from farming — but it greatly misrepresents the

>situation Heinlein portrayed to suppose that the Loonies were simply puppets

>under Mike’s control or that of the Central Cell. I think, without minimizing

>the special qualities of Mike, Heinlein is more likely to have thought of Prof

>and Mike as shaving the odds in an exceptionally intelligent way. They loom

>large in Manny’s story, but the Lunar revolution is larger than the story of

>Manny’s family (fun for the whole of it).


Yeah, I thought since the story was told from Manny’s POV, we saw the revolution through ‘tunnel vision’. Since Manny had Mike for info, we got to see most of what happened, but only through Manny’s recollections. To me this made the story fun, rather than like reading a history textbook.

There were enough references to other Lunie communities, and other events, that we could see that there was wide popular participation.

>It was fairly obvious to me on first reading that the Lunar revolution is

>closely patterned on the American Revolution — which was also not won by the

>Cabal in Philadelphia, however frighteningly intelligent and

>high-Enlightenment-tech they were.


>In short, I think these particular questions and objections might not be about

>features of the book — they might be “artifacts” of approaching the book with

>extraneous agendas — or artifacts of the paradigms, which is to say the

>readers and not the book. Certainly at least some of them disappear if you

>accept the premises of the book as stated rather than supposing that Heinlein

>must actually have meant something other than what he wrote.


Heinleins writing seems to be able to evoke readers opinions, look at the incessant threads on ST.

>Look forward to seeing you in two weeks.



BPRAL22169 wrote:

>Ahasuerus wrote:



>Personally, I find little bits of info about what happened after the “victory”

>scattered throughout the text one of the more attractive things about the

>novel, but it is so subtle that apparently a lot of people miss that whole

>layer. Why did Heinlein keep it in the background? Did he underestimate his

>audience? Was it done on purpose?



I started to read Moon again in preparation and I hadn’t got to the end of the first chapter before I had notes and queries…I’m not able to fully address the questions yet but I will say that Heinlein’s technique of telling the story in a long flashback is effective. Look at the very first few lines;

“I see in _Lunaya Pravda_ that Luna City Council has passed on first reading a bill to examine, license, inspect – and tax- public food vendors operating inside municipal pressure. I see also is to be mass meeting tonight to organize “Sons of Revolution” talk-talk.”

So we know, before we know anything else, that the current situation on the moon is unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…the first time reader might assume that the book was about to launch into the story of that revolution…we don’t know how long ago 2075 is after all. Of course, to a second time reader it is deliciously ironic that the Loonies are either never satisfied or alternatively have painted themselves into a corner once the reins of power were in their own hands ( yes, it’s a mixed metaphor; go dangle a participle! :-))

I think Heinlein was being deliberately ambiguous and wanted to keep the reader on their toes.

I also noticed ( sorry Bill, these are digressions) that Mannie has Dr Watson founding IBM; a joke? it’s not so far into the future that he could make such a slip is it? Or is this like matt getting the Kilroy thing mixed up?

I also wonder why the jokes were called Joe Millers? An American comedian?

In article, ddavitt





>I also noticed ( sorry Bill, these are digressions) that Mannie has Dr Watson

>founding IBM; a joke? it’s not so far into the future that he could make such a slip

>is it? Or is this like matt getting the Kilroy thing mixed up?

RAH was probably referring to the two Watsons (father and son) who ran IBM for decades.

robertaw@halcyon.com http://www.halcyon.com/robertaw/

In article,

“Robert A. Woodward”wrote:

>In article, ddavitt






>>I also noticed ( sorry Bill, these are digressions) that Mannie has Dr


>>founding IBM; a joke? it’s not so far into the future that he could make

>>such a slip

>>is it? Or is this like matt getting the Kilroy thing mixed up?


>RAH was probably referring to the two Watsons (father and son) who ran

>IBM for decades.

The point is that he was confusing the IBM Watson with the Holmes Watson. I think the assumption is that he doesn’t know a whole lot about the relevant history–why should he–and is assuming the Holmes stories are history rather than fiction.

David Friedman

How many times has Leonard Nemoy’s character been referred to as Dr. Spock?

Jeanette–who had never heard of the IBM Watsons until now–so didn’t get the joke and who also appreciates the joke in Star Beast–that euphemism wasn’t used in my neck of the woods and I don’t know of anybody who read Lady Chatterley’s Lover.

David Friedman wrote:


>The point is that he was confusing the IBM Watson with the Holmes

>Watson. I think the assumption is that he doesn’t know a whole lot abou

t >the relevant history–why should he–and is assuming the Holmes stories

>are history rather than fiction.



Ah, I didn’t know there was a Watson associated with IBM; that makes it all clear. Thanks!

I can’t believe I never spotted that before and it’s on the first page :-)


>I started to read Moon again in preparation and I hadn’t got to the end of the first

>chapter before I had notes and queries…I’m not able to fully address the questions yet

>but I will say that Heinlein’s technique of telling the story in a long flashback is

>effective. Look at the very first few lines;


>”I see in _Lunaya Pravda_ that Luna City Council has passed on first reading a bill to

>examine, license, inspect – and tax- public food vendors operating inside municipal

>pressure. I see also is to be mass meeting tonight to organize “Sons of Revolution”



>So we know, before we know anything else, that the current situation on the moon is >unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…

reminiscent of the Whiskey Rebellion, perhaps…the mini-revolution after the revolution, that the traitor George Washington helped put down?

Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR

Control-G Consultants

Lee K. Gleason wrote in message …

>I started to read Moon again in preparation and I hadn’t got to the end of

the first chapter before I had notes and queries…


. Look at the very first few lines;

>”I see in _Lunaya Pravda_ that Luna City Council has passed on first

reading a bill to examine, license, inspect – and tax- public food vendors operating inside municipal pressure. I see also is to be mass meeting tonight to organize “Sons of Revolution” talk-talk.”


>So we know, before we know anything else, that the current situation on the moon is unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…

Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR


Is there any chance that mention of “Sons of Revolution” might be a reference to some organization akin to “Daughters of the American Revolution” ??

And yes, it appears as if an effort to free Luna simply imposed greater restrictions within generations. Wonder if Heinlein was taking that from a real life experience from a certain country’s history?

Mac wrote:


>And yes, it appears as if an effort to free Luna simply

>imposed greater restrictions within generations.

>Wonder if Heinlein was taking that from a real life

>experience from a certain country’s history?


Maybe..but I have to say that from my POV some of it seems quite reasonable actions for the lunar government to take. I think a Loonie would react this way; why inspect? If the food is bad, no one will buy it and the vendor will have to shut up shop. I, OTOH, don’t see anything wrong with health inspections to ensure that there are good standards of cleanliness in the kitchen, where the customer can’t see what’s going on. Taxing them..well, yes, I can see why this is a problem. If they are paying rent for their space ( and I don’t think anyone could object to that) then I don’t think there is any justification for a tax just because they’re selling food.


wrote in message


>Maybe..but I have to say that from my POV some of it seems quite

>reasonable actions for the lunar government to take. I think a

>Loonie would react this way; why inspect? If the food is bad, no one

>will buy it and the vendor will have to shut up shop. I, OTOH, don’t

>see anything wrong with health inspections to ensure that there are

>good standards of cleanliness in the kitchen, where the customer

>can’t see what’s going on. Taxing them..well, yes, I can see why

>this is a problem. If they are paying rent for their space ( and I

>don’t think anyone could object to that) then I don’t think there is

>any justification for a tax just because they’re selling food.

OK, cobber, YOU pay for inspection. TANSTAAFL I will look in kitchen and check fryboy’s nails.

Mac wrote:


>. Look at the very first few lines;

>>”I see in _Lunaya Pravda_ that Luna City Council has

>passed on first

>reading a bill to examine, license, inspect – and tax-

>public food vendors operating inside municipal pressure. I

>see also is to be mass meeting tonight to organize “Sons of

>Revolution” talk-talk.”


>>So we know, before we know anything else, that the current

>situation on

>the moon is unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…

>Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR


>Is there any chance that mention of “Sons of Revolution”

>might be a reference to some organization akin to

>”Daughters of the American Revolution” ??

Possibly. Sounds slightly more radical but not much to go on here. DAR tends to have a very “snooty” image, hard to imagine in average Loonie.


>And yes, it appears as if an effort to free Luna simply

>imposed greater restrictions within generations.

>Wonder if Heinlein was taking that from a real life

>experience from a certain country’s history?


I don’t think anyone actually expected Luna to adopt any of the more radical suggestions that Prof made. The point is that it is an elected sovereign Lunar government, not an outside force. They are free to decide their own rules now. And never forget that Mannie would not have got so seriously involved unless the stakes were as high as they were: win or get starvation and cannibalism in about another decade.

Mike Dworetsky
“Lee K. Gleason” wrote:


>>So we know, before we know anything else, that the current situation on

>the moon is

>>unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…


>reminiscent of the Whiskey Rebellion, perhaps…the mini-revolution after


>revolution, that the traitor George Washington helped put down?



Not heard of that before, Lee. Can you give more details? Or should I just go look it up? :-)

On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 12:58:50 -0400, ddavitt


>”Lee K. Gleason” wrote:



>>>So we know, before we know anything else, that the current situation on

>>the moon is

>>>unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…


>>reminiscent of the Whiskey Rebellion, perhaps…the mini-revolution after


>>revolution, that the traitor George Washington helped put down?



>Not heard of that before, Lee. Can you give more details? Or should I just go

>look it up? :-)

The Federal Gov’t threw an excise tax on Whiskey to finance what was left of the Army and Navy. A bunch of Pennsylvania inbreds decided to take up arms. The Federal Gov’t federalized the PA State Militia, General Washington personally commanded the field force, and the farmers decided that getting into a shooting match with real live military force commanded by a real live general was a bad idea. They stood down quickly. A lot of anarchists like to make more out of it than it was.

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com

“The soldier is the Army. No Army is better than it’s soldiers. The soldier

is also a citizen. In fact, the highest obligation and priviledge of citizenship

is that of bearing arms for one’s country.”

— General George S. Patton, USA
On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 17:59:32 GMT, johnmatkinson@nospam.com (John M. Atkinson) insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>The Federal Gov’t threw an excise tax on Whiskey to finance what was

>left of the Army and Navy. A bunch of Pennsylvania inbreds decided to

>take up arms. The Federal Gov’t federalized the PA State Militia,

>General Washington personally commanded the field force, and the

>farmers decided that getting into a shooting match with real live

>military force commanded by a real live general was a bad idea. They

>stood down quickly. A lot of anarchists like to make more out of it

>than it was.

A few facts:

In 1794, the farmers in Western Pennsylvania made whiskey, using a large portion of their grain crops, because it it was much more rewarding to transport smaller amounts of a more expensive product to the markets in eastern PA. The Government’s decision to tax whiskey that did not cross a state border increased the price, and threatened the economic stability of Western PA.

The resistance to the tax was led by Albert Gallatin, later Secretary of the Treasury and diplomat. When they pointed their guns at the tax-agents and sent the ‘revenooers’ on their way, George Washington asked PA to use its militia to put down what he considered to be a rebellion. Gov. Thomas Mifflin refused and State Supreme Court Chief Justice McKean denied the Federal Government power to use force within Pennsylvania. It’s important to remember that Federal Government was in Pennsylvania back then.

When the Federal Government tried to call out the state militia, they refused to report. Nor was there any need to do so, since the more radical elements in Western PA had been superceded by moderates, including Gallatin, who was anti-tax, not pro-rebellion. They were interested in reaching a peaceful, even amicable, resolution.

However, Washington believed he needed to show that the Federal Government was strong – in order to discourage any British or Canadian thoughts about reuniting the Empire, and discourage the other states from considering their own rebellions. Therefore 13,500 troops from Pennsylvania, Virginia, and New Jersey were assembled at Carlisle, PA. Washington led the troops as far as Bedford, and remained in the rear while the army invaded the peaceful town of Parkinson’s Ferry. The locals, of course, did not attempt to encounter an army of that size.

The most fiery of the rebel leaders, David Bradford, was never caught and eventually ended up in Lousianna, but 22 men were arrested. No local jury allowed itself to be convened, so the men were taken to Philadelphia for trial. All were eventually pardoned. Many historians agree that the hasty repeal of the hated tax was part of a behind-the-scenes neotiation between Gallatin and Hamilton. Except briefly during the war of 1812, the Federal Government did not choose to use the excise tax again, until Abraham Lincoln remade the constitution in his likeness.

I am unaware of any historical evidence that suggests that the yeomen of western PA were any more, or any less, inbred than the troops that invaded their state, or more inbred than the real-live general that commanded them, from so far away.

By the way, John. I laid hands on two of the Frankowski X-time Engineer books. Send me a shipping addy, and they’re yours.


I know some who are constantly drunk on books,

as other men are drunk on whiskey or religion.

They wander through this most diverting and stimulating

of worlds in a haze, seeing nothing and hearing nothing.

H. L. Mencken
The Whiskey Rebellion – what I remember off the top of my head. But, yes, you should look it up.

Shortly after the US was formed George Washington put down a small insurrection protesting the excise tax levied by the new U.S. on whiskey — i.e., exactly the same kind of thing the Boston Tea Party was organized about. It’s a small but pivotal event in American history.

Incidentally, returnign to the thread, i don’t think Manny’s remarks indicate anything like a rebellion is brewing — sounds to me more like talk-talk is the kind of sentimental “good ol’ days when I was in the revolution” GAR kind of thing.

BPRAL22169 wrote:


>Incidentally, returnign to the thread, i don’t think Manny’s remarks indicate

>anything like a rebellion is brewing — sounds to me more like talk-talk is the

>kind of sentimental “good ol’ days when I was in the revolution” GAR kind of




I took it as being a warning that no revolution will ever result in a state of affairs that will satisfy all the people forever. And also a warning to the revolutionaries of yesterday that the children of today will consider them to be oppressive.

The Rolling Stones is set possibly not too much later; Mannie is, what, about 20 years older than Hazel? At the end of the book he says he’s not a hundred, which means she is less than 80; could well be describing the moon that the Stones left. Hazel was equally disgusted with the state of affairs; souvenir hunting tourists after turtles ( that’s always puzzled me..). Not quite a match though as Roger was a mayor but still seems to have evolved into a very familiar set up and nothing at all like Prof wanted.

On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:08:06 -0400, ddavitt


>BPRAL22169 wrote:



>>Incidentally, returnign to the thread, i don’t think Manny’s remarks indicate

>>anything like a rebellion is brewing — sounds to me more like talk-talk is the

>>kind of sentimental “good ol’ days when I was in the revolution” GAR kind of





>I took it as being a warning that no revolution will ever result in a state of

>affairs that will satisfy all the people forever. And also a warning to the

>revolutionaries of yesterday that the children of today will consider them to be


>The Rolling Stones is set possibly not too much later; Mannie is, what, about 20

>years older than Hazel? At the end of the book he says he’s not a hundred, which

>means she is less than 80; could well be describing the moon that the Stones left.

>Hazel was equally disgusted with the state of affairs; souvenir hunting tourists

>after turtles ( that’s always puzzled me..).

In the US about the time RS was written, a prize souvenir was a little tiny turtle with a picture painted on its back.

>Not quite a match though as Roger was

>a mayor but still seems to have evolved into a very familiar set up and nothing at

>all like Prof wanted.


djenn@visto.com (djinn) wrote:

>On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:08:06 -0400, ddavitt


>>Hazel was equally disgusted with the state of affairs; souvenir hunting tourists

>>after turtles ( that’s always puzzled me..).

>In the US about the time RS was written, a prize souvenir was a

>little tiny turtle with a picture painted on its back.

Still are, although a lot of the places that used to carry all that touristy stuff [Stuckey’s comes to mind for some weird reason – don’t actually know if they ever carried the little painted turtles since I’ve never been *in* one] have disappeared.


[Needless to say, I would assume they are non-endangered, farm-raised to be painted, leetle tiny turtles.]
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 08:42:30 GMT, Ogden Johnson III insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>[Needless to say, I would assume they are non-endangered, farm-raised

>to be painted, leetle tiny turtles.]

They are no longer painted. Paint does not expand and in too many cases forced the turtle’s sheel to deform, condemning it to a slow death. Many states now forbid the sale of turtles less than 4 inches in diameter. But yes, there are lots of turtle farms in the south.

Amazing what you learn when you buy your son a turtle while on vacation, isn’t it. Other facts: turtles are ill-tempered, unaffectionate, smelly creatures who cost really big bucks to keep alive. (You can burn out a $200 filter that could cope with a 100 gallon sea-water aquarium and 50 large fish for years, in two months when it handles turtle wastes.)


I know some who are constantly drunk on books,

as other men are drunk on whiskey or religion.

They wander through this most diverting and stimulating

of worlds in a haze, seeing nothing and hearing nothing.

H. L. Mencken
“jon ogden” &l6;jonogden@ogdenco.net>wrote in message news:QC3POuDyfgaGFhQeO7Do112nDEQW@4ax.com…

>On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 08:42:30 GMT, Ogden Johnson III

>insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:


>>[Needless to say, I would assume they are non-endangered, farm-raised

>>to be painted, leetle tiny turtles.]


>They are no longer painted. Paint does not expand and in too many

>cases forced the turtle’s sheel to deform, condemning it to a slow

>death. Many states now forbid the sale of turtles less than 4 inches

>in diameter. But yes, there are lots of turtle farms in the south.


>Amazing what you learn when you buy your son a turtle while on

>vacation, isn’t it. Other facts: turtles are ill-tempered,

>unaffectionate, smelly creatures who cost really big bucks to keep

>alive. (You can burn out a $200 filter that could cope with a 100

>gallon sea-water aquarium and 50 large fish for years, in two months

>when it handles turtle wastes.)

Also — salmonella, etc. Turtles are notorious for their ability to carry unpleasant diseases (which bother them not a whit.)

(Amazing what you learn on a marine mammal stranding team. US law prohibits anyone but certified stranding teams to touch or disturb any part of a stranded sea mammal or sea turtle. There’s some amazingly tough penalties for even possess a sea turtle skull. Awful hot and smelly work, though — you usually get called out for carcasses, which have to be dragged well above the high tide mark and buried deep enough to be safe from kids and dogs while shallow enough to be reasonably dry.)

Richard A. Randall

Purveyor of fine piranhakeets.

(Reply is a spam dump. Try

“geodkyt” at Hotmail dot com.)
jon ogden wrote:

>Amazing what you learn when you buy your son a turtle

>while on vacation, isn’t it. Other facts: turtles are ill-

>tempered, unaffectionate, smelly creatures who cost really

>big bucks to keep alive.

I had a turtle for a while in the late 1960s, when we were living in Switzerland. The guy was about six inches across, and s/he never caused any trouble. For about a year, every time I took the guy outside, he would try to run away. One time he actually succeeded. Never noticed the smell though. We just fed him vegatables. Didn’t seem like he ate much to me. Never had a water tank for him, just a big plastic cage with a bowl of water in the corner.

Tian Harter


Time Magazine, 4/9/2001, page 39, bottom left corner,

in a list of things you can do to slow Global Warming:

4. Don’t Be Fuelish. (I had nothing to do with it. :-) )
>I took it as being a warning that no revolution will ever result in a state


>>affairs that will satisfy all the people forever.

There’s a bit more, I think. Heinlein seems to have thought there was a natural dynamic for governments to grow ever more intrusive and arthritic — which certainly seems to be the case in the view we are given of Lunar society in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls.

It’s quite interesting that Heinlein gives us a “before” picture that has more social “looseness” than the “after” picture. He has painted his pre-revolutionaries as living in a kind of economic paradise — which will destroy them if it’s allowed to continue.

The comments from the rec-arts.sf.written posters don’t seem to take any of these complexities into account. The “failure” of the revolution is its success. Taking up the responsibilities of self-governance is not an entry into Eden. There’s that darned flaming sword to take into account…

BPRAL22169 wrote:


>It’s quite interesting that Heinlein gives us a “before” picture that has more

>social “looseness” than the “after” picture. He has painted his

>pre-revolutionaries as living in a kind of economic paradise — which will

>destroy them if it’s allowed to continue.



I don’t know if it’s depicted as being paradisical exactly but the absence of any loyalty to the government allowed the colonists to cheat. Look at Mannie siphoning off free power and water; we applaud his resourcefulness but really, he’s just stealing. After the revolution I wonder if he carried on doing that?


wrote in message news:3ACF7077.ADE5DAD8@netcom.ca…

>BPRAL22169 wrote:



>>It’s quite interesting that Heinlein gives us a “before” picture that has more

>>social “looseness” than the “after” picture. He has painted his

>>pre-revolutionaries as living in a kind of economic paradise — which will

>>destroy them if it’s allowed to continue.




>I don’t know if it’s depicted as being paradisical exactly but the absence of any

>loyalty to the government allowed the colonists to cheat. Look at Mannie siphoning

>off free power and water; we applaud his resourcefulness but really, he’s just


Well, it’s not *just* stealing, I think; it’s a bit more complicated than that, because he’s being forced to pay fixed Authority prices for necessities that he can’t get any other way, and to sell his goods to the Authority for whatever they decide to pay.

>After the revolution I wonder if he carried on doing that?





My answer would be: of course not.

[joel rosenberg]
Joel Rosenberg wrote:


>>After the revolution I wonder if he carried on doing that?






>My answer would be: of course not.

Well, if he did, it would be reprehensible to say the least. However, he was still stealing before the revolution IMO. It was more of a Robin Hood type theft but he took for free what others paid for and what he could reasonably be expected to buy.

Fixed prices for goods (i.e., no competition) is something I grew up with when it came to phone bills for example. It can lead to a feeling of frustration on the part of the consumer but as I said, I never felt that I had the right to free phone service.

On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 15:43:30 -0500, “Joel Rosenberg”insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>Well, it’s not *just* stealing, I think; it’s a bit more complicated than

>that, because he’s being forced to pay fixed Authority prices for

>necessities that he can’t get any other way, and to sell his goods to the

>Authority for whatever they decide to pay.

It seems to me that the above could be interpreted to mean that you are saying it’s okay to misappropriate the property of another because you don’t like the way they do business with you. Or that you believe one can steal from the government if one thinks one pays too much in taxes.

I think I’d rather argue that a defacto state of war exist between any police state and its citizens. This would make Mannie and his family into patriotic materiels-liberators.


I know some who are constantly drunk on books,

as other men are drunk on whiskey or religion.

They wander through this most diverting and stimulating

of worlds in a haze, seeing nothing and hearing nothing.

H. L. Mencken
“jon ogden”wrote in message


>On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 15:43:30 -0500, “Joel Rosenberg”

>insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:


>>Well, it’s not *just* stealing, I think; it’s a bit more complicated than

>>that, because he’s being forced to pay fixed Authority prices for

>>necessities that he can’t get any other way, and to sell his goods to the

>>Authority for whatever they decide to pay.


>It seems to me that the above could be interpreted to mean that you

>are saying it’s okay to misappropriate the property of another

>because you don’t like the way they do business with you.

Yes, it could be interpreted that way — but not honestly so, by anybody who has read the book.

[joel rosenberg]
>t the absence of any

>loyalty to the government allowed the colonists to cheat.

You’re only looking at one small aspect of their total economic picture. They have significant personal wealth, a stable society in which it is possible to live a challenging and rewarding life, and Heinlein makes a point of showing very low prices in effect — which implies no significant monetary interferences in the economy (i.e., if no inflationary money is being printed, the price of items goes down to reflect the higher wealth, rather than going up to reflect the greater ratio of currency to goods).

Second, what you are failing to take into account is that there was no government to be loyal to. There was only a warden and an administration which treated all inhabitants of Luna unjustly as though all were prisoners.

Personally, I fail to see how preventing a vampire from doing as much unjust and unreasonable damage as it might can be equated, morally, with dishonesty. Psychologically is another matter. What Manny and the other Loonies are doing by cheating the Authority is exhibiting prisoner psychology, the psychology of the oppressed, the psychology of the slave, who always cheated their oppressors. It’s not psychologically good to be in the pathology of master-slave psychology; that’s why Nietzsche thought so well of the sovereign individual.

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>t the absence of any

>loyalty to the government allowed the colonists to cheat.


You’re only looking at one small aspect of their total economic picture. They have significant personal wealth, a stable society in which it is possible to live a challenging and rewarding life, and Heinlein makes a point of showing very low prices in effect — which implies no significant monetary interferences in the economy (i.e., if no inflationary money is being printed, the price of items goes down to reflect the higher wealth, rather than going up to reflect the greater ratio of currency to goods).



But at the start the ice miner says that one Authority dollar used to buy one Hong Kong dollar; now it takes three. Doesn’t this imply a devaluation of the Authority money?

Also, Mannie himself uses the words “stealing” and “cheating” to describe his actions.

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>It’s quite interesting that Heinlein gives us a “before”

>picture that has more social “looseness” than the

>”after” picture. He has painted his pre-revolutionaries

>as living in a kind of economic paradise — which will

>destroy them if it’s allowed to continue.

Sounds like modern America to me.

Tian Harter


Time Magazine, 4/9/2001, page 39, bottom left corner,

in a list of things you can do to slow Global Warming:

4. Don’t Be Fuelish. (I had nothing to do with it. :-) )

[tian harter]
>Incidentally, returnign to the thread, i don’t think Manny’s remarks indicate

>anything like a rebellion is brewing — sounds to me more like talk-talk

>is the

>kind of sentimental “good ol’ days when I was in the revolution” GAR kind



Maybe VFW or American Legion Hall talk might be more familar, Bill, since there ain’t been a GAR Hall around in any sort of use since my daddy was a boy.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
On 07 Apr 2001 01:30:40 GMT, bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>The Whiskey Rebellion – what I remember off the top of my head. But, yes, you

>should look it up.


>Shortly after the US was formed George Washington put down a small insurrection

>protesting the excise tax levied by the new U.S. on whiskey — i.e., exactly

>the same kind of thing the Boston Tea Party was organized about. It’s a small

>but pivotal event in American history.


>Incidentally, returnign to the thread, i don’t think Manny’s remarks indicate

>anything like a rebellion is brewing — sounds to me more like talk-talk is the

>kind of sentimental “good ol’ days when I was in the revolution” GAR kind of



Part of the problem here was that it cost substantially more to ship the grain out of the area, and the farmers received substantially less money for the grain than they did the whiskey….


— Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net

F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more

security you have, the less freedom! Niven’s Fourth Law)

wrote in message news:3ACDF5CA.58A9ADE5@netcom.ca..

. >”Lee K. Gleason” wrote:



>>>So we know, before we know anything else, that the current situation on

>>the moon is

>>>unsatisfactory and rebellion is brewing…


>>reminiscent of the Whiskey Rebellion, perhaps…the mini-revolution after


>>revolution, that the traitor George Washington helped put down?




>Not heard of that before, Lee. Can you give more details? Or should I just go

>look it up? :-)


Well. frankly, all I know about it I learned from Alternate History stories (I learned a lot of history that way…which means I’m often misinformed about how things really happened in this timeline). It was part of the basis of a series of novels by L. Neil Smith, who, judging from the short shrift given Thomas Jefferson and other Libertarians in this newsgroup, will not be a popular name here. Anyway, I gather it was a small uprising against the government, after the Revolutionary War, that George Washington put down. In the L. Neil Smith books, the Whiskey Rebellion succeeded, and Albert Gallatin help establish a new government – George Washington went up against the wall as a counter-revolutionary.

In any case, that passage from _Mistress_ reminded me of that situation – revolutionaries chafing under the control of the new government. It made me wonder if it that passage could have been inspired by it – RAH seemed to have been a fair to middling student of the history of that period.

L. Neil Smith’s Alternate History mentions an Admiral Heinlein, BTW, who served in the naval battle of Tsushima Straits. If your’re not familiar with these stories, and you’re not allergic to Libertarians, you might want to give these books a look – the two best being _The Probability Broach_ and _The Nagasaki Vector_.

Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR

Control-G Consultants

On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 05:28:33 GMT, “Lee K. Gleason”


> Well. frankly, all I know about it I learned from Alternate History

>stories (I learned a lot of history that way…which means I’m often

>misinformed about how things really happened in this timeline). It

>was part of the basis of a series of novels by L. Neil Smith,

>who, judging from the short shrift given Thomas Jefferson

>and other Libertarians in this newsgroup, will not be a

>popular name here. Anyway, I gather it was a small uprising

Eh? Don’t kid yourself about good ol’ TJ.

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com

“The soldier is the Army. No Army is better than it’s soldiers. The soldier

is also a citizen. In fact, the highest obligation and priviledge of citizenship

is that of bearing arms for one’s country.”

— General George S. Patton, USA
Lee Gleason:


>was part of the basis of a series of novels by L. Neil Smith,

>who, judging from the short shrift given Thomas Jefferson

>and other Libertarians in this newsgroup, will not be a

>popular name here

Lee, would it surprise you that a goodly number of regular posters actually consider themselves Libertarian, are registered to vote in that party, attend club functions, etc.? yet are able to distinguish their own political beliefs from their postings on Heinlein topic (i.e., don’t always wear their political beliefs on their sleeves)?

In fact, I know that efforts are being made right now to schedule L. Neil Smith as a guest author to visit this newsgroup’s chat group later this year; and we’ll give him the same welcome we give other authors we’ve had. I’ve been looking forward to reading the series of novels by him for several years time.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”
>The controlling

>authority did not take a hand in many situations but had full governmental

>power when it wished to exercise it.

I’ve for some time suspected Heinlein modeled this aspect of Lunar civilization on Hong Kong — as it was in the 1950’s and 60’s, where the British Colonial administration basically didn’t care what the locals did to each other, with a few exceptions.

On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 21:51:19 -0400, ddavitt


>I also wonder why the jokes were called Joe Millers? An American comedian?

I learned this in High School Physics! One Joe Miller wrote the first collection of jokes.

Eddie Blasyk was a pretty good teacher, for a Zoomie Short Colonel…

>===== Original Message From “Joel Rosenberg”=====


wrote in message


>>BPRAL22169 wrote:



>>> It’s quite interesting that Heinlein gives us a “before” picture that

>has more

>>> social “looseness” than the “after” picture. He has painted his

>>> pre-revolutionaries as living in a kind of economic paradise — which


>>> destroy them if it’s allowed to continue.




>>I don’t know if it’s depicted as being paradisical exactly but the absence

>of any

>>loyalty to the government allowed the colonists to cheat. Look at Mannie


>>off free power and water; we applaud his resourcefulness but really, he’s




>Well, it’s not *just* stealing, I think; it’s a bit more complicated than

>that, because he’s being forced to pay fixed Authority prices for

>necessities that he can’t get any other way, and to sell his goods to the

>Authority for whatever they decide to pay.


>>After the revolution I wonder if he carried on doing that?






>My answer would be: of course not.


I don’t know. I know that I WOULD “steal” from the Authority under the circumstances that we encounter in the first part of the book. I don’t know what the circumstances would BE after the revoluition but I don’t imagine that they would justify continuing the practice. What the Prof would do is hard to say. I tend to think of him as doing what I would do but that is just speculation.

John’s comment that “He has painted his pre-revolutionaries as living in a kind of economic paradise — which will destroy them if it’s allowed to continue” is a perverse misunderstanding of what actually occurred. The “looseness” of that society, while attractive, was all internal. All their outside dealings, all the regulation that did exist, were the under the control of the Authority. What was going to destroy them was the policy of a “state” that was extremely authoritarian, when it chose to be so. The worst things he showed under their internal society, and it was clearly NOT a perfect society, were not going to destroy it. I guess if they were better organized they could have a standing army to resist the Authority but they were not able to BE that organized, even if they wanted to. They did not have sovereignty over themselves and the revolution, whatever the flaws of the society that followed it, gave them THAT.

Will, the one from New Haven

This hand will raise now.

There is no I to do this,

The cards themselves act.
BPRAL22169 wrote:

>snip. The third question is;


>( but the emotional result is that

>Heinlein effectively glorifies revolutions as fun for the whole family, whereas

>in reality they are anything but. Why?


I doubt Ludmilla’s death qualifies as fun for the whole family…..

One other point which maybe falls into question 2 as well, is the death of Marie Lyons; it sparked the revolution and was, in its own way, more of a catalyst than the threat of starvation. I wonder how it would have happened if she hadn’t died? The revolution wasn’t ready to go….yet her death did more to unify the attack than anything else could have done. That can’t be put down to Mike’s help or influence.

(Side note; we are told that her still warm body was discovered by a fellow worker who saw it and screamed and it “was her last scream”. Why? Was she killed too?)

I found a couple more Mannie mistakes; he had Jefferson freeing slaves; which prompted a wry comment from Prof about him trying to at least ( meaning the American populace I assume?) and he has the Boston Tea Party down as mythical. Hmm.

There’s also another of those glimpses of the future; Dr Chan, the Chinese politician with whom they negotiate gets assassinated eventually. I wonder why Heinlein gave him that fate?

Nuclear Waste wrote:


>OK, cobber, YOU pay for inspection. TANSTAAFL I will look in kitchen and

>check fryboy’s nails.



OK, I’ll make myself unpopular with the cook and look myself…though if it was a male cook he might not mind, given the attitude towards women in Moon.


A User wrote about the Whiskey Rebellion:

>This incident is what lead to Washington DC not

>being part of any state. Congress was determined

>to never again be in a position to have their defense

>in the hands of any single state government. As a

>direct result of the Whisky Rebellion DC residents

>are now placing license plates on their autos with

>the slogan “Taxation without Representation”

>printed on them.

I found out those plates existed when Clinton put one on the Presidential Limosine. I wish California would let me have that kind of opportunity to. Instead, I get opportunities like “Sesquicentennial year” Not the kind of thing that gets the blood moving.

Tian Harter


Time Magazine, 4/9/2001, page 39, bottom left corner,

in a list of things you can do to slow Global Warming:

4. Don’t Be Fuelish. (I had nothing to do with it. :-) )

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

joelrmpls has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Evening.

joelrmpls: Am I early?

DavidWrightSr: Hi Joel

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. we’re early

joelrmpls: np.

DavidWrightSr: I like to get here early since I’m the archivist.

joelrmpls: I can only stay a little while tonight; got to head out and help set up Minicon.

DavidWrightSr: Where’s it gonna be?

joelrmpls: Minneapolis Hilton.

DavidWrightSr: Ah. duh. Mini – con :-)

joelrmpls: A friend of mine is bringing a rocket to put out front. (Used to be a drop tank from some fighter jet.)

joelrmpls: There’s more of a pun in it — it used to be the biggest regional convention, but it’s shrunk from about 3300 to about 600.

DavidWrightSr: What happened?

joelrmpls: Becoming, relatively speaking, a mini-con.

joelrmpls: It got too large for the local group to handle, and there was, in effect, a coup by some of the oldtimers, who narrowed the focus — a good idea, IMHO, done poorly — and it pissed off a lot of folks, who went away and stayed away.

joelrmpls: Very fannish politics.

DavidWrightSr: Too bad. I’m familiar with that kind of politics, unfortunately.

joelrmpls: That said, I’ve got friends on both sides of the controversy, some of whom are pissed at me for not choosing up sides, others of whom are pissed at me for choosing up sides.

joelrmpls: Me, I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em.

DavidWrightSr: I understand.

DavidWrightSr: You must have DSL. I notice that you are on-line most of the time, although it shows as inactive.

joelrmpls: Yup. I’m basically online all the time.

joelrmpls: Doesn’t cost anything extra, and it lets me have my email up to date.

DavidWrightSr: I’m hoping to get DSL here at the house sometime next year. Actually,

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi all

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.

joelrmpls: Hi, Jane.

ddavitt: I see Bill is on AIM so he should be along soon.

ddavitt: We didn’t scare you off then Joel? :-)

joelrmpls: Nah, I had a good time, Jane.

ddavitt: Did you get that email i sent you btw?

joelrmpls: And not, I hope, just ’cause I was the relative center of attention. Although that’s rarely been known to bother me.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve enjoyed your afh contributions lately.

ddavitt: I’m sure you’ll enjoy tonight just as much

joelrmpls: Yes, I did. Haven’t had a chance to look at it. Been *very* busy, what with Felicia and the girls gone, about to change parttime day jobs, and some hassles with my former publisher.

ddavitt: S’OK; just wondered if I’d used the right address; not hassling you, honest

joelrmpls: I believe you. And it’s hard to hassle anybody by email, even if you try.

joelrmpls: Although I do have a fan who is trying, alas.

ddavitt: It’s part of the article that I did for the Jan 2000 Heinelin journal; do you read that?

joelrmpls: He’s written a screenplay for D’Shai, and wants to negotiate with me to buy the rights, and doesn’t hear “talk to my agent” very well.

joelrmpls: No, I haven’t read it yet. But I will, I’m sure.

ddavitt: That’s the worst of email for authors; you don’t have the filter of a postal address

ddavitt: I was near to bursting with pride when Bill told me the Bodleian is a subscriber

joelrmpls: On the other hand, if necessary, there are all sorts of filters. I had to get very good with procmail when I was being mailbombed by, and I’m not making this up, “Christ Sodomizer”.

DavidWrightSr: ‘The center of the scholars universe?

joelrmpls: Neat.

ddavitt: yuk

ddavitt: Oh, yes

DavidWrightSr: or something to that effect from Gaudy Night

joelrmpls: I finally did get him to go away.

ddavitt: I have stood outside it, staring longingly…

ddavitt: One day…

DavidWrightSr: Now you are on the shelves :-)

ddavitt: YES!!!! Well, sort of.

ddavitt: As close as I’ll ever get

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Will

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will. Welcome

joelrmpls: I found out the guy’s real name, got his resume, err, edited it slightly, and submitted the edited version to every employer in his area. He decided he didn’t want to play anymore.

geeairmoe2: Hi, y’all.

joelrmpls: H there.

joelrmpls: Hi, that is.

ddavitt: It’s irritating how much mischief can be done; the rash of cross posts on afh is an example of it

DavidWrightSr: Did y’all catch my notice that Google is now working correctly like the old Deja?

ddavitt: The only solution to them is ignoring them of course.

joelrmpls: Sure, although as such things go, it’s a fairly minor annoyance. I get more irritated that I would otherwise, simply because Mrs. H is present.

ddavitt: Yes; good news. Are they still only archiving the past year tho?

joelrmpls: I did notice. It’s definitely gotten better.

DavidWrightSr: I haven’t checked it in detail, so I’m not sure.

ddavitt: I miss that archive

ddavitt: Very handy for directing people to

joelrmpls: Nope; it’s only relative new stuff.

DavidWrightSr: I’ll check it out tomorrow and let you know

ddavitt: They do say they will get it all back eventually

joelrmpls: My simple test is to search for “Smotkin” — if there’s my long discussion of my cousin’s suicide, they’ve brought up the old archives.

ddavitt: Priceless historical stuff like my first ever post :-):-)

DavidWrightSr: I can imagine that it is an enormous job, building new indices etc

ddavitt: It gives you date parameters; still stuck at May 2000 or something like that

SAcademy has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Welcome

ddavitt: And in recent times Deja was only back to 1999

joelrmpls: Good evening, Ginny.

ddavitt: Hi Ginny

geeairmoe2: Hello and welcome

SAcademy: Hello, I sent Bill an invitation at hhis request, but I get back a message that he can’t do it–wrong software.

ddavitt: Can we try?

ddavitt: I can see he’s on AIM

DavidWrightSr: But he is only on AOL, not yet on AIM

ddavitt: Yes; it just told me I can’t

joelrmpls: I’m really very impressed with the AIM software — there seem to be good versions for most platforms, including linux.

ddavitt: The recording speech bit is fun for the grandparents back in the UK; I record my little girl

ddavitt: OK, we can phone them…but this is more fun

DavidWrightSr: and cheaper :-)

ddavitt: Yes, but I have a good deal to the UK and what the heck…

joelrmpls: And, once we get IPv6 going generally, the quality of the connection will be much better.

ddavitt: What is that?

joelrmpls: It’s a replacement for the present IP addressing scheme.

ddavitt: OK

DavidWrightSr: I think that it is going to be a long time coming. There’s a lot of investment out there

joelrmpls: Most importantly, it understands things like quality of service, and that some packets are time sensitive, while others aren’t.

ddavitt: So is Bill not going to be able to make it?

joelrmpls: Nobody minds, really, if an email message is delayed by a few tenths of a second to let some real-time phone message through, for example.

DavidWrightSr: He definitely has a problem.

joelrmpls: Which Bill is this? Reich?

DavidWrightSr: Bill Patterson

ddavitt: Oh no; I’m amazed at how fast emails do go

ddavitt: Bill is supposed to be hosting AFAIK

ddavitt: He did the lead off post on afh

DavidWrightSr: You obviously don’t work where I do. Sometimes my e-mails take days to get there

joelrmpls: Me, too. When Felicia and I are both working at home, we often use email from floor to floor.

ddavitt: That’s usually admitting that you’ll host

ddavitt: You can’t just shout?!

joelrmpls: We can — but we don’t want to interrupt each other.

ddavitt: Fair enough

joelrmpls: I need to get the books written, and she needs to do her research. Emergencies, of course, are another matter.

joelrmpls: But we try to avoid emergencies. :-)

geeairmoe2: What is the scheduled topic for tonight’s chat?

ddavitt: Well, I suppose we can start and hope Bill can join us at some point?

rjjusu has entered the room.

ddavitt: Three questions on Moon

ddavitt: Hi there

SAcademy: Bill can’t get here tonight. He only has his laptop with him. He thought I could patch hhim through, but I can’t

joelrmpls: One of my favorites. It’s a book that I’m demonstrably incapable of learning technique from.

rjjusu: I heard we were discussing TMiaHM – The Mistress is a Harsh Mooner – and I didn’t want to miss that!

ddavitt: :-(OK, then we will have to start

joelrmpls: I’ve tried, mind you, to sit down and analyze what he’s doing, but every time I do that, I get caught up in the story.

SAcademy: He gave me a message–EBATNM

ddavitt: The questions were

ddavitt: translate please Ginny?

joelrmpls: Everybody Bring A Tank to New Mexico?

ddavitt: The details about the present day were kept in the background. Why?

ddavitt: Mike made it too easy. Was this cheating?


SAcademy: Sorry about the caps.

ddavitt: Revoultion was glorified as fun for the family. Why?

EBATNM has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome EB

joelrmpls: Hi there. Bill?

ddavitt: They’re the questions…

ddavitt: Is that you Bill?

DavidWrightSr: Bill can’t get in. He is going to sign off and try logging back in.

ddavitt: OK.

DavidWrightSr: Bill asked me to invite EBATNM in.

EBATNM: Hi all, is this the Robert Heinlein discussion & Whiskey drinking society

ddavitt: Sort of….

ddavitt: change it to beverage of choice and I’ll say yes :-)

EBATNM:Mike, Mycroft–>Mike. Not much difference IMO

rjjusu: His smarter brother…

SCIFIMUSIC: Great name for this charactor too!

ddavitt: The initials of Mike’s computer were HOLMES Four

DavidWrightSr: rjjusu: what was your disagreement?

geeairmoe2: The thing that struck me most from the first reading in my impressionable youth was how few really active and dedicated actors were needed to launch a revolution. Doesn’t seem so unusual.

rjjusu: With the idea that there is too much redundancy in today’s world to do the kind of thing that Mike was doing on the moon. The US has more vulnerabilities in its infrastructure than I like to think about.

DavidWrightSr: Good think it wasn’t a ‘Wideband-Holographic-Optical-Redundant-Extraordinary’ computer :-)

ddavitt: That’s wicked:-)

rjjusu: Yeah, that model could really put out!

joelrmpls: It was a much more likely model in those days to keep hanging more and more stuff off a large mainframe.

rjjusu: Yes, computers back then got bigger and bigger, not decentralized.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. Interesting what RAH would have done with the distributed model that has actually evolved

joelrmpls: I knew a fair amount about computers when I first read Moon, and found that entirely credible — that sort of thing was exactly what everybody was doing.

SCIFIMUSIC: Who knows, the Gov may have something like Mike now…

von krag: VLSI hadn’t really started to show it’s promise I guess

SageMerlin has entered the room.

joelrmpls: The futuristic model was everybody having a time-sharing terminal.

ddavitt: I mentioned on afh that the death of Marie was crucial; that gave the revolution popular appeal and speeded it up but it was unforeseen. Without it? Who knows?

DavidWrightSr: VLSI wasn’t even talked about in my experience until late 1969 or so

ddavitt: Hi Alan

joelrmpls: The idea of powerful processors being cheap enough that that wouldn’t make sense wasn’t anywhere on the horizon.

SageMerlin: Good evening crew. Sorry I’m late.

ddavitt: Mike couldn’t have forecast that…

EBATNM: The first computer I programmed was an IBM THAT ACTUALLY FIT ON A DESK! (Zounds & Gadzooks!)

ddavitt: Tho the ‘teasing’ of the dragoons, stranded and exiles made it a likely event

EBATNM: and you only had to stroke the boiler once a day!

von krag: lol, I used a IBM 360/30 :-)

DavidWrightSr: But I suspect that in the tense situation that was being built up, *something* was bound to happen and he could predict that

joelrmpls: And the teasing of the dragoons nicely parallels the sort of stuff that built up to the Boston Massacre.

ddavitt: It’s a good point in H’s favour that it was a truly shocking event, over and above our normal reaction to a rape and murder

DavidWrightSr: Did we have ‘indian maidens’?

EBATNM: he used the overtones of the American revolution quite successfully (IMHO)


ddavitt: here it’s sadly commonplace. On the moon, where Stu nearly died for a friendly kiss, it’s so much worse

joelrmpls: Well, he did set up a believable society based on people having to behave themselves. Which does seem to parallel a lot of situations on the frontier.

ddavitt: Well, I still have trouble with it

DavidWrightSr: What sort of trouble, Jane?

rjjusu: Yes, friction causes more than fire, it causes death when people depend on each other to live.

joelrmpls: You really do have to get along with your neighbors, and it is always very stressful for a visitor to even innocently violate a local custom.

von krag: It strikes me a bit odd that the production of arms was so limited, w/a small shop, raw materials and some good chem/eng weapons are very easy to make

ddavitt: Women in short supply so they end up in control?

joelrmpls: You don’t, for example, tug on your earlobe in an Italian cafe.

ddavitt: Hmm…

EBATNM: the western frontier was actually peacefull, mostly it was Civil War Vet’s that went west. If you lived through Shiloh a couple of morons with pistols didn’t seem all that much of an opposition

ddavitt: More likely they’d end up slaves

DavidWrightSr: What do you mean. Women *not* in short supply end up in control :-)

ddavitt: I’ll remember that the next time i’m in venice :-)

rjjusu: Women are in control. They just let us think we are, cuz they’re nicer….

ddavitt: Hey, just because we’re out numbered tonight ( as always) don’t think you can pick on us!:-)

DavidWrightSr: No way would they be slaves, there were too many other men around who would be willing to liberate them. I think RAH had it right on this one

DavidWrightSr: Picking? No. Complimenting. !

ddavitt: But on Venus in Logic it was the same situation but different outcome

joelrmpls: I think it could go either way.

SCIFIMUSIC: men have it much easier today…

joelrmpls: Just as I found both Lord of the Flies and Tunnel in the Sky credible.

ddavitt: true.

von krag: good point

ddavitt: OK, but going back to marie, was she a real catalyst?

rjjusu: I agree Joel, many things in life exist on the cusp, and the immediate circumstances seem to dictate what eventually happens….

joelrmpls: More like a flashpoint, I think.

joelrmpls: Which happens for any kind of mob action, good or bad.

ddavitt: And what did happen to her friend who found her and screamed?

joelrmpls: Look up the hep riots, for example.

DavidWrightSr: ?

ddavitt: They snowball I suppose, yes.

von krag: yep it was a very hypergolic sit at point in time, she was the twig that broke the camels back

ddavitt: It says, found her and screamed. Was her last scream.

ddavitt: Why?

EBATNM: implication is that she was also killed

joelrmpls: Because the rapists, presumably, didn’t want any witnesses.

DavidWrightSr: Maybe the goons killed her too?

ddavitt: Were the murderers still there and killed her too?

ddavitt: Not clear..always puzzled me

joelrmpls: That’s the clear implication.

ddavitt: So how did people find out about it being six of them?

joelrmpls: Good question.

ddavitt: Obvious it wasn’t loonies who did it of course

EBATNM: so in the same book we are shown both possibilities

von krag: it’s hard to hide in a tunnel I think

rjjusu: One of the rules of the writer – leave it up to the reader to put their own interpretation on the event, within the bounds of the story….

ddavitt: Well..minor point

rjjusu: Keeps ‘em coming back for more.

joelrmpls: The retcon answer is that six goons were seen fleeing from that tunnel. (It’s not in the book, mind, but it works.)

DavidWrightSr: And RAH was the master of that technique.

von krag: agreed

ddavitt: OK, that works for me.

joelrmpls: Yup. He often doesn’t let you know who the real hero of the story is. It takes quite awhile in Star Beast to figure out who it is.

ddavitt: Joel, you said something on afh about a plot hole with the probablities going down not up

joelrmpls: Sure.

ddavitt: care to expand on that?

von krag: RAH was sparse w/his sceen setup, he gave just enough to let the reader do most of the work

ddavitt: I see it as being OK, because the risks got greater in the middle

ddavitt: more people knew about it; greater chance of leaks

joelrmpls: As the revolution keeps proceeding, as planned, the odds must be getting better.

ddavitt: I see what you mean but I still think they can get worse and still be on track

joelrmpls: If it takes n steps to get to the end, and we’ve already gotten to step n-m, it can’t be getting less likely.

ddavitt: But it isn’t linear

ddavitt: a backward step can be more productive

ddavitt: See for example when they scaled down the taunting

joelrmpls: No, it isn’t, but I think it amounts to the same thing — if the plan is working, then success is by definition more probable, rather than less.

DavidWrightSr: No. the odds at any given point are not dependant on what has gone before. only on the possible outcomes which are available at that point.

ddavitt: Because the Warden was going to crack down too hard too fast

ddavitt: Each step they took changed things.

rjjusu: But that assumes that all remaining probabilities are favorable ones, and there can be many more favorable outcomes then unfavorable outcomes, and the overall outcome potentially unfavorable because it is more heavily weighted in its effects…

ddavitt: Extras, like marie and Stu, unforseen evets must have had a big impact

joelrmpls: True. And I think it’s a stretch to say that each successful step made success less likely.

von krag: the warden just wanted the grian to ship, he didn’t care if loonies killed each other

DavidWrightSr: If you throw 10 heads in a row, what are the odds of doing it again.

rjjusu: 1/2

ddavitt: 50/50

DavidWrightSr: Precisely,

ddavitt: unless yo want the ofdds for 11 heads in a rwo of course

geeairmoe2: As long as your opponent isn’t aware of what you’re trying to accomplish, you’re ahead, even when something totally unforeseen happens because you’ve got a goal you opponent is unaware of.

ddavitt: Fingers slipping badly there:-)

rjjusu: rented fingers?

ddavitt: Feels that way..and I’m on ginger ale not G and T

geeairmoe2: You can “urge” your opponent to take a position that benefiots you.

ddavitt: True Will

SCIFIMUSIC: good point geeairmoe

joelrmpls: True. Neat discussion of that in some of the fencing stuff in Scaramouche, btw.

ddavitt: It’s so sad that they treated the moon that way

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: That always kills me; they use it as a dumping ground and illtreat people.

rjjusu: so australian …..

DavidWrightSr: Same thing happened here in Jawjuh :-)

joelrmpls: Hope it wasn’t something I said. :-)

ddavitt: Not the way it should have happened

ddavitt: people get booted Joel

ddavitt: Usually pop back in again

joelrmpls: Give me five minutes with whoever booted Ginny, and they won’t do it again. :-)

ddavitt: Well yes but it’s such a damn waste

ddavitt: Very gallant!

SageMerlin: Imposition of manners is never a damn waste

ddavitt: They could get there, they could live there in comfort, but they wasted it

joelrmpls: But colonial powers don’t, generally, go to all that trouble for the benefit of the colonized. When they do goo — and they often do — it’s a byproduct.

ddavitt: earth I mean

joelrmpls: good, that is, not goo.

ddavitt: They could have done all the thinbgs with it that Prof and mannie touted in their trip to earth

joelrmpls: Sure — but that would have required a huge investment.

ddavitt: Tourism, health benefits, massive living space and food production

joelrmpls: How much investment are the voters in your state willing to make to make prisons more humane and productive?

ddavitt: Most of it had already been invested tho if there were 3 million people there

SageMerlin: Sorry folks, but I can’t keep my head up. I will drop in saturday if I can

ddavitt: OK, night Alan

rjjusu: People that aren’t pionees/frontiersmen and women want benefits in the short run.

ddavitt: Not that many prisoners Joel

EBATNM: I just tried to get Bill in, but IM still thinks he can’t chat

von krag: the tech in Moon is real close to our present day, except for hot fusion we have it all I think

SageMerlin has left the room.

ddavitt: Most were either born free or had served their time

joelrmpls: We don’t have anything near as cheap ground-to-orbit.

joelrmpls: And cost is part of the tech.

ddavitt: We have 75 years to go

von krag: ummm x-30 I think

rjjusu: Yes, we still need a 100/1 reduction in current costs for putting things in a near-earth orbit.

joelrmpls: And getting to LEO is halfway to anywhere, at least in terms of energy.

rjjusu: Yep

von krag: or DC-X might do it also

ddavitt: A catapult throwing rocks seems so low tech…but I know it’s more complex than that…

rjjusu: I watched the DC-X burn up a mile from where I was working – it is still a ways away from getting us what we need.

joelrmpls: Me, I like the idea of some sort of Botany Bay for incorrigables.

SCIFIMUSIC: How much of a cost reduction to get to the moon again?

ddavitt: Really? Like Coventry?

rjjusu: If we want to go to the moon now, a LOT of things will have to be redone from scratch. We’ve lost capability that we used to have.

SAcademy has entered the room.

SCIFIMUSIC: i noticed that

joelrmpls: Welcome back, Ginny.

ddavitt: OK, we’ve been chatting for an hour; shall we break for a few minutes?

joelrmpls: Well, I need to. Got to go feed the dog.

joelrmpls: Back shortly.

EBATNM: I need to get a beer

SAcademy: Thank you. Message for Jane. Bill can’t get his laptop working on this tonight, so will Jane please stand by to sub for him on Saturday?

rjjusu: Feed the dog an incorrigable ….

SCIFIMUSIC: I need to put my son to bed

ddavitt: OK, I make it 10.09, back at 1017 is :-)

ddavitt: OK, will do

ddavitt: Thanks Ginny

von krag: could the present day US gov postion on access to space & tech (it want’s it under it’s thumb) lead to a Moon in RL?

DavidWrightSr: BRB

SAcademy: In case he can’t get the proper connections?

SAcademy: Thank you, Jane. I’ll tell him.

SAcademy has left the room.

von krag: Hi Mrs. Heinlein, I last talked to you in 76 at KC worldcon

von krag: opps :-(

ddavitt: Yes, I can do Saturday I think. We have visitors from Ottawa at some point but shouldbe OK

rjjusu: I think we currently don’t have the motivation to go back to the moon, because those in charge can’t see far enough ahead to realize the need and the benefits.

ddavitt: Ginny may be back; occupational hazard of these chats

rjjusu: Not us we, them we…..

EBATNM: Is Mr. Gifford on the chat?

ddavitt: Not tonight; Jim doesn’t attend usually

geeairmoe2: He would show up as NitroPress.

ddavitt: He popped in last time to say hi to Joel

EBATNM: rats, I’m supposed to send him some page cites & I need his email, oh well, Bill will have it

ddavitt: He prefers the post format to chat; lots of people do

SCIFIMUSIC: That’s the whole problem, near-sightedness!

von krag: rjjusu: we have a gov that hates and fears tech in the hands of the un-elite IMO

ddavitt: It’s on his web page

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi David

AGplusone: Good evening, Jane, everyone one …

EBATNM: greetings, Sir

AGplusone: echoes ….

rjjusu: EBATNM – the email address is gifford@nitrosyncretic.com

von krag: BTW, I’m Anthony von Krag, a friend of Joel’s and happy to meet y’all

ddavitt: Ditto

AGplusone: pleasure ,,,

rjjusu: Hi Dave!

ddavitt: Nice to see some new faces..and always a pleasure to see the old ones too :-)

ddavitt: We’re on a break david

ddavitt: Bill can’t make it due to laptop problems

rjjusu: von krag – not so much that they feat tech in the hands of the non-elite. More of a concern that they can’t “control” the way it is used.


von krag: other side of the cion?

von krag: coin

AGplusone: Hi, Randy, Will, “Ron” resting, who’s scfimusic, James … anyone ask Jani what she’s doin?

rjjusu: I’ve got to get some chocolate milk – my endorphins are dropping off and my fingers are going with them….

ddavitt: Had an email from jani in the week about the essay comp

AGplusone: Chocolate milk is good …

EBATNM: Rjjusu: thank you

rjjusu: Yes, it comes from contented chocolate cows ……

von krag: I se the the reaction of the Navy to salvage of WW2 planes is all about control rjjusu

joelrmpls: In other strange news, everybody hear about the new source of stem cells?

ddavitt: No, what are they?

joelrmpls: Fat from liposuction.

rjjusu: Yep, that’s why I’m heading to the fridge for some chocolate milk…

SCIFIMUSIC: yes, amazing

EBATNM: The politico’s I have dealt with on technical matters didn’t know a byte from a microscope

von krag: wow!

ddavitt: That is such a gross thing to do…

joelrmpls: Yup. “Excuse me, can I have another order of fries? It’s for science.”

von krag: lol


rjjusu: I’m a humanitarian – that’s why I overeat!

ddavitt: That name sounds familiar.

geeairmoe2: Wondered what those who want a “fat tax” on junk food thought about it.

ddavitt: Do uo post on afh?

von krag: me?

ddavitt: Andy.

von krag: K :-)

ddavitt: But you can answer too :-)

EBATNM: not recently, my machine has decided that “news” doesn’t exist, I’ve written for the Heinlein Journal

ddavitt: Ah, that may be it.

EBATNM: and have posted pre “update”

ddavitt: I have too

von krag: ddavitt: I read it but I mostly post to RASFW

ddavitt: That has so many posts i can’t keep up

ddavitt: plus they’re scary:-)

EBATNM: I’m also working on a book with Bill, actually he is doing most of the work & I like it better that way

ddavitt: cunning!

geeairmoe2: RASFW is . . .?

ddavitt: rec arts sf written

rjjusu: Scary? I’ve been away from the newsgroups since moving from NM to UT. What’s up there these days?

geeairmoe2: Couldn’t figure out the “w”.

von krag: I post to a few threads that interest me ddavitt

ddavitt: Well, they all seem to know a lot

ddavitt: i have posted there but not often

joelrmpls: I think you’d find some of it congenial, Jane, and some of it idiotic.

ddavitt: afh is smaller, cosier, less threatening:-):-)

ddavitt: I read it sometimes but i just can’t cope with the volume

AGplusone: That’s my problem, the few times I’ve drifted over there I realize the number of authors I’ve never heard of … used to be simple: Heinlein, Clarke, Azimov, Kornbluth, … a few others, one shelf in the dingy corner of the public library right under westerns.

rjjusu: but still very interesting..

DavidWrightSr: Agreed, (except for the occasional idiot)

ddavitt: Well, we have those too.

EBATNM: that’s why its called Useless Net

ddavitt: OK, break over, back to the salt mines, er ice mines

joelrmpls: Sure. OTOH, there’s quite a few folks I enjoy talking with who don’t post to afh.

von krag: the last thread I posted to was on gnu/sword control and it’s real hard to breack through the myths surounding that topic

rjjusu: even the idiots provide a certain level of entertainment. You never know when you’ll be exposed to an entirely new type of idiocy….

joelrmpls: Gun control, abortion, and Heinlein seem to be three subjects that will take over a newsgroup.

DavidWrightSr: You kill gnus with swords? wow

ddavitt: Yes, i can tell I’m not a newbie; i smile rather than snarl

rjjusu: that’s gnus!

joelrmpls: In the case of rec.guns, alt.abortion, and afh, that’s not necessarily a problem.

ddavitt: Usually.

EBATNM: Heinlein …. you mean that facist author who hates women?

von krag: and loves incest also

AGplusone: anti-semite this week!

ddavitt: Anti semitic, fascist womean hater, please

joelrmpls: Yeah. My mind boggled at that one.

ddavitt: Sheesh….

ddavitt: And the idiocy of the rg people

joelrmpls: rg?

von krag: rec guns

ddavitt: The reading group whho wouldn’t do ST

joelrmpls: Ah.

AGplusone: the lady’s live reading group up in Seattle

EBATNM: does Clayton Cramer still post to rec guns?

ddavitt: Because someone THOIUGHT it was anti semitic, or H was

ddavitt: Intellectaul laziness at its worst

ddavitt: Hmm, I’m snarling again..

rjjusu: you’re allowed.

AGplusone: She was a curious reader seeking guidence: my friends won’t reading Starship Troopers because they hear he’s anti-semite

DavidWrightSr: I wonder, Can they actually read? or do they have a designated reader for them?

von krag: wow! that’s a stretch by any deffinnition

geeairmoe2: For some, stealing another’s opinion is easier than forming their own.

ddavitt: Never mind, if it wasn’t a troll, the person has been well and truly set straight

joelrmpls: Reminds me of McCarthy. “You say he’s an anticommunist? I don’t care what kind of communist he is, I want him fired.”

ddavitt: i notice no come back from the original poster so it may not have been genuine

von krag: swordfish is my answer to that Joel :-)

joelrmpls: It didn’t feel like a troll to me, but I’m not particularly good about that.

AGplusone: Besides Jim, anyone have the old classic Back Home cartoons from 1947 et seq by Bill Mauldin?

AGplusone: during the Red Scare they were wild!

joelrmpls: And speaking of not good, I do need to get going. Later, all. Good talking with you.

ddavitt: Going back to ice mining; was that Heinlein being prophetic?

von krag: cya Joel

ddavitt: Night Joel, glad you could make it

joelrmpls has left the room.

AGplusone: bye, Joel

DavidWrightSr: Faster than a speeding bullet!

ddavitt: Did we know there was ice there then? ISTR that was a recent discovery?

rjjusu: Not prophetic, practical with a vision, but maybe they are the same.

geeairmoe2: Exit like a cat, go and don’t look back.

ddavitt: We’re like cats; never say goodbye; remember? In Tunnel?

ddavitt: GMTA

SCIFIMUSIC: It seems he’s prophetic in many of his writings (at least the few I’ve read)

von krag: I think even back then the odds were in favor of ice being on the moon … just from bombardment by astroiods

ddavitt: I have troiuble envisaging it; wouldn’t the mining melt it?

EBATNM: ice on the moon was a possibility, but they didn’t know for sure until recently

ddavitt: i have visions of Snow White type mines with people and picks and glittering ice..

EBATNM: what the heck does GMTA mean?

von krag: high probilty IMO

AGplusone: Are we certain moon never had an atmosphere?

ddavitt: great minds

geeairmoe2: Great Minds Think Alike


ddavitt: happens a lot that 2 people post same thought

rjjusu: synchronicity

ddavitt: cos we’re all on the same wavelength:-)

geeairmoe2: First time I saw it I thought it had to do with time zones.

ddavitt: Funny!

rjjusu: and going in and out of phase….

von krag: I puzzel ppl w/this one “DK?”

AGplusone: Greenwich Mean Time Almost?

ddavitt: don’t know maybe?

DavidWrightSr: reminds me of my interpretation of ‘tanstaafl’

von krag: correct :-)\

ddavitt: I can see why that puzzled you Dave

ddavitt: I was the same

ddavitt: But wouldn’t the ice supply be finite?

DavidWrightSr: Bet it didn’t take you 25 years to figure it out :-)

ddavitt: Well…

rjjusu: finite but large

ddavitt: I can’t remember

DavidWrightSr: That was explicitly mentioned that ice was getting harder to find

von krag: but w/hot fussion bringing in ice from the belt w/be trivial I think

ddavitt: For the purpsoes of the story tho it has to be accessible close to where they live

AGplusone: Where would Ice be, geologically?

ddavitt: near the poles?

von krag: under the regolith almost any where

ddavitt: I don’t really know..

ddavitt: why isn’t any of it salt?

ddavitt: water

ddavitt: or wouldn’t that matter?

AGplusone: would it matter?

von krag: but we think it’s mostly concentrated at the poles

ddavitt: the settlemets aren’t

SCIFIMUSIC: they sure used it wisely

rjjusu: where it could be protected from sublimation and abrasion via particles from solar wind.

ddavitt: they are on the side facingEarth

ddavitt: they recycled well


ddavitt: had to; closed system and they punched a hole in it by exporting wheat

SCIFIMUSIC: i was amazed at RAH’s vision

ddavitt: with regard to what detail?

ddavitt: the famine and overcrowding on earth?

von krag: I need to run, I have to get the final prep ready for minicon, nice to meet y’all and cya soon

ddavitt: The world government ( sort of)


ddavitt: Thanks for coming!

von krag has left the room.

SCIFIMUSIC: Gotta go…it’s been great talking with everyone!

rjjusu: cya

EBATNM: the world was continually on the tippy verge of starvation until that last century, now with the Green Revolution and the advances in medical science there are more people on the edge of stavation (except for the 1st World)

ddavitt: Glad you could come

rjjusu: isn’t progress wonderful!


AGplusone: He had farmers in the dust bowl trying to make a crop on one rain per year … plowing it in right away … is there an analogy — closed cycle there?

ddavitt: Could be..

geeairmoe2: I don’t recall, how extensive were non-Earth, non-lunar settlements in “Moon”?

SCIFIMUSIC has left the room.

ddavitt: I found it hard to see sending wheat to India from the Moon

AGplusone: The farmer who makes the first crop on the first ice strike … but thereafter gets deeper and deeper in debt

ddavitt: Seems so not cost effective

EBATNM: None mentioned until then end when Manny says he is off to the Asteroid belt

ddavitt: H often mentions that bit about sending laundry to hawaii

DavidWrightSr: IT was very cost effective for the Earth, but not to the moon

ddavitt: Ti=o illustrate that point but still, if the lunar wheat was so vital, why not invest in making it easier to grow?

DavidWrightSr: Remember Earth was downhill.

ddavitt: They kept upping the quotas as if that could make wheat appear by magic

DavidWrightSr: Bureaucrats are like that

rjjusu: but that’s the point, you DON’T want to invest, if you are from earth. Just consume.

AGplusone: Soviet economy?

ddavitt: They were very stupid

EBATNM: I wonder if the wheat bit wasn’t a parallel to the Cotton-growing South and England’s dependence on it

ddavitt: Might be. i’ve read King Cotton

rjjusu: Stupidity – Largest commodity in the universe

ddavitt: Oh yes….

ddavitt: Our mill workers starved

EBATNM: gee, all those numbers! Why not just make pi = 3 and be done with it?

ddavitt: eggs in one basket problem

DavidWrightSr: I was joking before about Georgia, but there could be a lot of parallels. I’ve never thought of that

ddavitt: India would have starved too if the wheat supply had ended permanantly

ddavitt: It was a small amount overall…but made a crucial difference

ddavitt: Notice how an 1800 calories diet was supposed to be in force globally?

DavidWrightSr: instead of 3.14159265358979323846264338327……..[See Editor’s Note below]

ddavitt: Do you know that by heart dave? I’m impressed!

TAWN3 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Earth was in trouble.

ddavitt: Hi Tawn

TAWN3: Hi all

rjjusu: Actually, getting back to an earlier comment, a lot of the US’s big cities are probably only 3-5 days away from chaos under the right circumstances

DavidWrightSr: I memorized that from Starman Jones 48 years ago. Some things you never forget

[editor’s note: *almost* never forget. my original quote was off in the last 6 decimal places. Corrected here to show that it was my mistake, not Heinlein’s]

EBATNM: greetings

geeairmoe2: Cornbread are square, pie are round. Someone in Georgia ought to know that.

ddavitt: H made that point in farmer about california I think it was

AGplusone: Imagine a milk strike …

EBATNM: most major cities only have a 3-5 days supply of food

ddavitt: One earthquake and it would all go back to desert

ddavitt: Not a natural place to settle; no water

EBATNM: LA has a 4 hour water supply, if the pipelines from NoCal broke

rjjusu: yes, given a winter scenario with a major snowstorm and trucks shutting down, a lot of people would be in a world of hurt.

ddavitt: There is no real safe place

DavidWrightSr: ‘A good environment is whatever we are used to’

AGplusone: Depends on where they broke, Andi … lots of miles of “pipe” …

EBATNM: Come to Capitan, N.M We have water, sun, cows, and one-half of a dead bear

ddavitt: Which is why H always said we need to spread out and get some humans off planet

EBATNM: the Smithsonian has the other (inner) half

rjjusu: And as I said before, I’ve looked at the situation professionally, and a LOT of our distributional infrastructure has real choke points in it.

ddavitt: Lucky them

EBATNM: Smoky Bear, buried in the main intersection of town

ddavitt: i am going to have to go soon; anyone want to take over?

ddavitt: You’re logging Dave?

DavidWrightSr: I’ve got it

ddavitt: Do you need a back up?

ddavitt: OK

rjjusu: I can back up, I got here pretty early.

DavidWrightSr: No problem, I’ve got it from word one when Joel and I were here alone.

ddavitt: So, anyone want to bring up anything not discussed yet?

siannon prime has entered the room.

ddavitt: I want to leave you all arguing away:-)

AGplusone: Hi, Jani

TAWN3: Hi Jani

ddavitt: Darn it jani, I’m just going!!

DavidWrightSr: Did anyone ever respond to my question as to why libertarians consider this to be som sort of a bible?

rjjusu: Why, it’s the the motherly mistress of mayhem! Hi. Jani!

ddavitt: What time is it for you? You should be asleep:-)

siannon prime: Hi all :-)

ddavitt: it’s 3.35 am1!!

siannon prime: I’m working … so I shant be doing much besides lurking here :-(

AGplusone: rjjusu = Randy Jost

ddavitt: Good point dave; anyone want to tackle that?

siannon prime: Hey Randy, long time no see!

rjjusu: You know it. I’ve missed all the people here, but been buried until recently.

ddavitt: maybe it’s because Prof wanted to be a libertarian ?

ddavitt: His ideals were in tune with theirs even if it didn’t turn out that way

AGplusone: [I did the same thing you’re doing last night, Jani, stayed awake all night … just finished a catch up nap]

ddavitt: Look at the bit where he lectures the congress on how not to do things

geeairmoe2: Wasn’t the Prof a political exile?


ddavitt: They want to divide moon up geographically into voting areas for example

ddavitt: He says, do it by age, by job, anything but the irrelevant bit of where they live

ddavitt: He was a bomb throwing revolutionary

ddavitt: AG has dark suspicions of him as I recall

AGplusone: medieval towns voted by craft, or job, in their local government

DavidWrightSr: It would seem to me that the events in Moon show the exact reverse of what libertarians want.

AGplusone: nothing new about that

ddavitt: It shows them that it will take a lot to shift people from the familiar to the new

rjjusu: I’m not sure why one would call this a libertarian bible. It has some ideas that are common sense, and some t

ddavitt: But the fact that the heroes want a lib set up must make it popular

rjjusu: that are sound good but probably aren’t practical.

AGplusone: I think Prof was a professional agent provocateur (sp?) and merely said things to shake up the pot like … someone I’m trying to think of

ddavitt: But the irony is, as you say dave, that what they had under the warden was more libertarian that after the revolution.

EBATNM: I saw a book inscribed “To Professor La Paz” at the home of Robert LeFevre. LeFevre was a Libertarian VIP during the 50’s – 70’s

AGplusone: wazisname, an old dead writer …


ddavitt: Asimov maybe?

DavidWrightSr: Nah, some kind of Germzn name

DavidWrightSr: German

AGplusone: naw, was recently accused of being an anti-semite

ddavitt: Hmm..I know! Clarke!

ddavitt: Am i getting close?

AGplusone: no one, in real life, could believe all the things La Paz believed in ….

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

ddavitt: Ok, well, I’m really going now. Thanks for chatting and enjoy the rest of it:-)

Heinleinsmof: I see — I show up and you take off

ddavitt: Sorry; not linked

EBATNM: At the time, speaking of one who was around them circles, ANYTHING or ANYONE that could be grabbed as “going our way” was hailed as “One of Us”

AGplusone: That’s a great name … trying to figure out what “smof” means.

ddavitt: It’s 11.00 pm and i have a new baby

siannon prime: bye Jane

Heinleinsmof: Secret Masters of Fandom

EBATNM: secret masters of fandom

ddavitt: Night jani, catch you on AIM soon!

Heinleinsmof: AIM wouldn


ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: give the baby a sip of brandy, Jane …

Heinleinsmof: t let me have my regular name because it was already taken

AGplusone: I see … I think

DavidWrightSr: What is your regular name, if I may be so bold?

EBATNM: ah, fanac, those were the day

EBATNM: er, days

Heinleinsmof: bpral22169

siannon prime: Oh hi Bill :-)

DavidWrightSr: Well, I’ll be damned

AGplusone: I saw … I thought aright

Heinleinsmof: undoubtedly!

TAWN3: It wouldn’t let you use your name Bill?

Heinleinsmof: Hi David, Jani — it was a tortuous process

Heinleinsmof: No, it was taken — by my prior installation.

TAWN3: ah

DavidWrightSr: And the amazing thing was that we were having a play on Heinlein’s name the seconds before you showed up.

geeairmoe2: I had the same problem, hence geeairmoe2

AGplusone: system corrupted …

Heinleinsmof: My goodness

Heinleinsmof: There are no coincidences!

DavidWrightSr: Wait’ll you see the log

AGplusone: I once registered AGplus1 which was then forever lost

Heinleinsmof: *sigh* I miss allt he good stuff

AGplusone: and when I came back after the thirty day trial, had to register somethin’ else

DavidWrightSr: Jane had to leave a minute ago, leaving us leaderless also. And then there you are!

Heinleinsmof: All things work out for the good of the Heinleiners.

AGplusone: And we were asking, “How come the Libertarians think MIAHM is RAH’s declaration that he’s a Libertarian?”

Heinleinsmof: Are we substantially done?

Heinleinsmof: Ah. I have been asking myself that.

geeairmoe2: Waiting for someone to toss in a lit firecracker.

Heinleinsmof: (And I are one)

rjjusu: let’s put some gasoline down first…..

AGplusone: Not now, that we’ve got one to put in a barrel and wait for coherent sound to issue from the bunghole.

Heinleinsmof: I think it’s because the portrait of lunar society before the revolution is the best imaging of what it might be like that exists

EBATNM: they lacked economic freedom but had plenty of social freedom

rjjusu: But was it real or an illusion that the Warden let the people have?

AGplusone: Like under King Rat, by Clavell?

Heinleinsmof: Libtertarians have a whole host of problems with imaging their philosophy

Heinleinsmof: Mu, rijjusu

TAWN3: It was real

rjjusu: Mu? no, that island sank

EBATNM: the Sense-of-Life matched with what we thought (or some of us) thought life *could* be like except for the #$*! State

Heinleinsmof: Heinlein’s imaging of lunar society is like 19th century socialism: home family economics.

Heinleinsmof: Yes — sense of life.

AGplusone: all those happy cottage industries … making one pin at a time

TAWN3: Was life under the warden like life under Rome? do what Caesar saysand we’ll let you govern yourself? Just a thought.

AGplusone: And pay your taxes when the tax farmer comes by

DavidWrightSr: Life under the warden was, sell us the grain and we don’t give a hoot what else you do.

TAWN3: When there is a crime, you don’t call the warden,you pick a judge on the spot, etc.

AGplusone: Or send a telegram for Wyatt

AGplusone: … and Judge Parker

TAWN3: Exactly David.

Heinleinsmof: I always thought it was modeled on Hong Kong

EBATNM: the book doesn’t really describe, except in passing, the economic oppression – but spends a great deal of time explicating the social system

rjjusu: Or Judge Roy Bean

EBATNM: What about Botany Bay shipping all those sheep to England?

TAWN3: The main example isn’t it?

AGplusone: Yeah, ifn’ you have old Roy sitting on the porch of his bar feeding his bear

TAWN3: Australia.

DavidWrightSr: Or Georgia?

AGplusone: I still think the Prof is the Bear in Kipling’s poem, don’t let it get too close

EBATNM: any economic colony is set-up for economic domination, as long as the $ roll in who cares what they do?

Heinleinsmof: That’s more true of colonial systems since the mercantile system was invented.

AGplusone: … bites your face off.

geeairmoe2: The earth didn’t care what was going on until the goodies stopped.

rjjusu: Well, it’s clear that the founders of the moon colony didn’t start it as a social experiment. Rather, a way to deal with at situation in a fashion that they had seen before, and yet didn’t understand even with precident in front of them.

AGplusone: Neither did the Emporer …

EBATNM: It was a prison colony

Heinleinsmof: If you think about it, it’s wildly unlikely political prisoners would be shipped to the moon. The scale of distance and cost is so much greater than Botany Bay

TAWN3: Like Australia.

rjjusu: There you go with that logic stuff again, Bill

EBATNM: true, Tawn, like Australia

AGplusone: Come to think on it, neither did the Kings of England start the American colonies … so long as the charters paid revenues

Heinleinsmof: Though, if you use the scaling paradigm Heinlein invented for FITS, Botany Bay was farther in travel time than the moon is.

EBATNM: the Virginia Bay Colony started-off as a business venture

AGplusone: then, once they became crown colonies, paid taxes …

Heinleinsmof: I think most of the colonies started out as royal charters, didn’t they?

AGplusone: Most did

AGplusone: a few were spin-offs from established ones

EBATNM: The Pilgrims got lost & ended-up in Boston – I don’t know when they got their charter

AGplusone: Conneticuit, etc …

Heinleinsmof: And, ironically, the trouble with the colonies started when the chartered companies ceded the territories back to the crown.

DavidWrightSr: I am ashamed to say I don’t know my state history any better, but I do know that Georgia was used as a prison colony during part of the early days

AGplusone: The Massachusetts Bay Colony was a charter

DavidWrightSr: But I think you are right. Oglethorpe did have a charter, I believe. I’ll have to do some study on that

EBATNM: Was it granted under Cromwell or Charles II? I don’t really know

EBATNM: Maryland was a colony fer dem Papists

AGplusone: … but I’m not sure that wasn’t a grant after the original colonists made it a fait accompli

AGplusone: Lord Baltimore

DavidWrightSr: And I understood that Australia was used only after the NA colonies were no longer available.

EBATNM: Rhode Island was, of course, a religious split from Mass.

AGplusone: New York was a conquest of the existing Dutch, Swedish colonies

AGplusone: and thus a Crown colony

AGplusone: Penn was Lord Penn’s woods, a grant, or charter

EBATNM: Did the Brit’s ever send convicts to the Americas?

siannon prime: NY was Dutch then British, I think

siannon prime: I think we sent all ours to Oz

TAWN3: According to the book Molly ——— they did.

AGplusone: Georgia for certain, and a lot of emigrate or stay in gaols to most of the others

DavidWrightSr: Negative. As I said Georgia was used as penal colony.

geeairmoe2: I have among my ancestors someone who bought his Maryland land from Lord bacon.

TAWN3: Moll Flanders

Heinleinsmof: I vaguely recall somethign about a penal colony in – South Carolina?

AGplusone: Moll Flanders was an earlier example, to Virginia

TAWN3: right, I was going to say Virginia.

AGplusone: But the entire colony of Georgia was designed, at inception, to be a penal colony, like Oz, later

Heinleinsmof: That was it. Georgia

AGplusone: That’s what Dave was talking about, above, concerning Oglethorpe

AGplusone: His charter was to stock it with convicts

Heinleinsmof: I have the impression the Lunar Authority didn’t exercise a very invasive control — they just had one economic weapon: they set the price for grain at the rail head.

EBATNM: “Take your tired, your poor, yearning to breathe free — and ship ‘em off to the ends of the earth”

DavidWrightSr: I agree Bill.

AGplusone: Except, I’m sure, the finks sold franchises originally

Heinleinsmof: All the other control stuff seems to have been at the interface of Authority with the Lunar society.

AGplusone: and we’re a couple generations down the road and no one is talking about how they happened to be in possession of certain things when this new generation first saw the light

DavidWrightSr: Explain Please

AGplusone: If I were a fink … with a bunch of unorganized convicts milling about …

Heinleinsmof: I have the impression the current prisoner population was a miniscule fraction of the total lunar population

AGplusone: I’d pick one, like King Rat, and start selling him contraband

AGplusone: for control

AGplusone: and let him become the founder of Hong Kong Bank

AGplusone: Two generations later, neither of us would be talking about how it really got started

DavidWrightSr: Bill, That was clear. Most of the population were no longer or had never been convicts.

AGplusone: Everyone read Clavell’s King Rat?


AGplusone: Of Stalag 17?


Heinleinsmof: I imagine there was a certain amount of those — shall we say, “irregularities” — but they didn’t impinge on Heinlein’s story here.

AGplusone: No, because RAH picked it up after the nasty brutish beginnings

AGplusone: we just hear the legend that has been spun …

EBATNM: Manny came from the top of the Lunar heap; both socially and economically and we see everything from his POV

Heinleinsmof: He did take care to b uild in quite a number of parallels with the American revolution, though.

EBATNM: not so much in plot as in overtones

AGplusone: from Minnie, among others, about what they really want us (this generation) to believe

AGplusone: e.g., the “bride ship” …

EBATNM: and Mum as a “Peace Corp Enrollee”

Heinleinsmof: Part of the subtext of the whole revolution idea here is that people do things for people — Mike was people to Manny; Manny was people to Mike.

DavidWrightSr: Recall that Mum said that things had really been bad in the old days, iirc

rjjusu: One generation’s criminal enterprise is another generation’s family enterprise is another generations’s established position in society from which they become the arbiters of current fashion, and thus has it ever been.

AGplusone: (involuntary) … hehe

AGplusone: Exactly, as if Kidd had made it like Morgan

TAWN3: Kennedy’s

EBATNM: how does one “carve a man in suspious circumstances” anyway?

AGplusone: bunker scan

AGplusone: bunko

AGplusone: lifting his purse after he drifts off in exhaustion

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think the loonies would consider a bunko scam “suspicious”

EBATNM: Is Manny’s emphasise on family the first time this (continuing) motif is seen?

EBATNM: In Farnham’s all we see is a dysfunctional family

AGplusone: [King Rat was Clavell’s first big novel. About a Japanese POW camp in which a sergeant becomes Bill Gates, so to speak, despite RHIP, and really runs the prison, a libertarian system, sorta, Tawn]

Heinleinsmof: I had the impression it was Manny’s characterization — he was totally immersed in his family

AGplusone: [There’s a movie about it made in the 60s, you can probably rent]

Heinleinsmof: There are very tight non-family social groups in earlier stories.

TAWN3: Ah. Thank’s David. I have heard the term many times but had no frame of reference. And RHIP is what?

geeairmoe2: [A movie was made of King Rat starring George Segal]

Heinleinsmof: And then there are the Howard Families — a shaping milieu

DavidWrightSr: Hmm. that might make a good topic for a later discussion. Discuss Heinlein’s family styles.

AGplusone: yep, Will

DavidWrightSr: Rank Hath its Privileges

EBATNM: Yikes!

EBATNM: many and varied

TAWN3: Ah. Ok. Thanks

AGplusone: ‘family systems’ are pretty varied in a way

Heinleinsmof: I don’t think we’ve set the discussion topics for the next two — shall we have that as one of them?

AGplusone: only if we do Mader

Heinleinsmof: Friday would be good preparatory reading — it’s got the line marriage here plus the troika — the basic patterns of Luna recapitulated in a balkanized U.S.

Heinleinsmof: Citizen, yes — that would be good preparatory reading, too.

DavidWrightSr: Look at all of Lazurus’s families!

AGplusone: only example I can think of with a matriarchy (formal), the Mannie is de facto

Heinleinsmof: Plus the contract marriage of Beyond This HOrizon (a very Wellsian – Freethinking one)

DavidWrightSr: And all of the familys in the juvies!

Heinleinsmof: Lazarus Long’s family seems more like a clan to me.

AGplusone: or, close your ears Jani, a cl*sterf*ck

TAWN3: Matriarchy on the Sisu you mean David

AGplusone: er, I mean eyes

EBATNM: AG – I was thinking the exact same thing! LOL

Heinleinsmof: Well, I think they prob

rjjusu: Now there’s a good technical term from the military! :-)

Heinleinsmof: ably included that in “polymorphous perverse.”

EBATNM: Charlie Fox

DavidWrightSr: Not just his Tertius family, but Dora, and all of the others through his life

geeairmoe2: Cluster flop, as the edited version of “Heartbreak Ridge” had it.

AGplusone: really? Never read Heartbreak Ridge

geeairmoe2: Clint Eastwood movie.

AGplusone: I know, saw it, didn’t read the book

Heinleinsmof: Come to think of it, organizations and structures usually come apart around Lazarus Long, don’t they?

geeairmoe2: On the now cable stations it became cluster flop.

geeairmoe2: non-cable stations.

AGplusone: Ah-ha, a true libertarian. Proof!

Heinleinsmof: how’s that?

AGplusone: :-)

DavidWrightSr: I don’t think that’s fair Bill. Most structures and organizations have limited life spans. Lazarus just happened to out live them, (or they got bored with him)

EBATNM: “Things fall apart, the center can not hold, mere anarchy is loosed upon the world”

AGplusone: If Laz is RAH, slowly drifting through time, and organizations come apart as you mentioned, then the movement is toward the libertarian pole

geeairmoe2: Lazarus seemed to have the attitude if it didn’t fit his own personal needs, it either needed changing, or he needed a change of scenary.

Heinleinsmof: Except for Dora, though, the groupings he is in tend to get very amorphous, no matter how they started out.

EBATNM: There’s a topic: LL

TAWN3: He stuck around until proof of identification became mandatory.

AGplusone: always packing up that there wagon and moving on to New Frontiers … small mouth variety of anarchist

geeairmoe2: You just couldn’t keep old Laz happy.

Heinleinsmof: frontiersman

Heinleinsmof: He was born under a wandering star

AGplusone: or adjusted sociopath?

rjjusu: The monkey climbing the tree to see a little farther

Heinleinsmof: Hard to make a case for sociopathy

DavidWrightSr: Counterexample: his wife in the tale of the twins dumped him.

AGplusone: so long as he’s out on the frontier, nobody puts him under close scrutiny

Heinleinsmof: Yes, with the implication it had happened before and no hu-hu

DavidWrightSr: In fact, I believe that he said that most of his wives got tired of him fairly quickly.

Heinleinsmof: Interesting comparison with Jubal: both know the conventions of Mrs. Grundyism — Jubal barricades himself in the Poconos; LL moves onward and outward.

AGplusone: odd, when he’s the voice we like him, but when someone else is the voice, Hilda, for example, we ain’t so sure

Heinleinsmof: No — I don’t like Hilda

EBATNM: He seems like a real pain-in-the-tucas

Heinleinsmof: She irritates me

AGplusone: I think the attraction between the two was mutual

rjjusu: What causes the irritation?

AGplusone: They had to become lovers or kill each other

Heinleinsmof: Hard to articulate: her personal style rubs me the wrong way

geeairmoe2: If I can’t play by my rules, I’m taking the ball to where I CAN play by my rules.

Heinleinsmof: She is more abrasive (IMO) than is necessary to achieve her ends.

EBATNM: LL always wants to dominate and sulks (or throws a tantrum) when he can’t

AGplusone: His style rubs Colin Campbell a leetle raw too

rjjusu: And rubbing you the right way would cause you to……?

AGplusone: manipulative SOB

geeairmoe2: My way … or someone (you or me) is hitting the highway.

AGplusone: cut his throat, figuratively or literally if need be …

Heinleinsmof: Yes — but he’s always been that way. You just take your own evasive maneuvers and do what you want to anyway.

EBATNM: but Hilda won’t let him get away with it

rjjusu: Was she the anti-mother figure?

AGplusone: because she’s just as manipulative herself

EBATNM: agree with that AG!

AGplusone: You don’t think she winds up Captain by mistake, do you?

Heinleinsmof: That may be it — she’s got to master him; compare the way LL sets up the circumstances to inveigle Campbell into doing what he wants.

geeairmoe2: People who REALLY know what they want tend to be impatient with people who wander between them and their goal.

Heinleinsmof: Th

rjjusu: No, it was to show that there are a variety of leadership styles, and what works in one situation may not in another.

Heinleinsmof: that’s fair — if you’re paying attention to what he’s doing you just take evasive action.

Heinleinsmof: Hilda has to boss. That’s her personal style.

AGplusone: On one level, I agree, Randy, but notice how she eliminates each of the others by encouraging, or goading them, to their weaknesses

EBATNM: but there is a way to get what you want without either stepping-on or manipulating people —

DavidWrightSr: But unless he was lying, he said that he always preferred people who didn’t knuckle under to him.

geeairmoe2: What did they used to say in the Army. There are three ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way.

AGplusone: until they have to step down … leaving at the end only one choice

Heinleinsmof: I’ve run into that quite a lot

AGplusone: He was mouthing a ‘bossism’ … a lie

EBATNM: the IS *gasp* such a thing as dealing from the top of the deck & honesty

Heinleinsmof: The only way to survive with Belli was to stand up for what you regarded as the right.

Heinleinsmof: And to hell with his opinion

Heinleinsmof: And I think that is the way of SElf Respect

Heinleinsmof: I do not regard this as a bad thing

AGplusone: manipulation can be as simple as letting the other guy self-destruct

Heinleinsmof: True — the very best kind, becuase they do all the work for you.

AGplusone: which Hilda did with Zeb, Deety and Jacob

EBATNM: yes, but they were in the classic “lifeboat” situation

Heinleinsmof: But I have also found that you can carefully tell people exactly what is going to happen if they continue on their course, and they will continue to do it anyway, then *bam*

AGplusone: simplified things, didn’t it

DavidWrightSr: Slava Bogu. I’m not as cynical as some people seem to be. It would lessen my enjoyment of Heinlein immensely.

rjjusu: Maybe that is why Heinlein referred to Cassandra …

Heinleinsmof: I think so. Yes

AGplusone: remind me: Cassandra?

AGplusone: prophet who no one wants to hear?

rjjusu: She who always told the truth, but no one would believe….

geeairmoe2: Isn’t she the one the people killed because her prophecies were negative?

Heinleinsmof: Yes. Was it the Orestia?

EBATNM: Trojan prophetess who told Agamenon that his wife was going to kill him when he returned from Troy.

EBATNM: He did. She did.

Heinleinsmof: One of those Greek plays

AGplusone: yeah, I thought so

geeairmoe2: Kind of “kill the messanger” type thing.

Heinleinsmof: You have to step back from that in NOTB — it’s an examination of the nature of leadership.

AGplusone: Laz: Okay, you others stand here in the middle, and we’ll go exploring another time

AGplusone: leading from behind, leaning against the wall

AGplusone: “I’m just the ‘senior’ …”

EBATNM: and then getting everyone to do what he wants

geeairmoe2: He won’t throw the firecracker, but he’ll light it.

rjjusu: Tom Sawyer anyone?

AGplusone: eventually … and if the impact isn’t what he wants, fade into the woodwork

Heinleinsmof: Well — Hilda does have one characteristic that LL also has — she’s right a lot — and always when the chils are down.

EBATNM: Good Point! (re: Tom Sawyer)

Heinleinsmof: That is the final and unarguable reason

AGplusone: yes

geeairmoe2: But if you lead too well, people start becoming too dependant on you.

AGplusone: the motto of Emperor Wilhelm … “I endure”

rjjusu: But a good leader always thinks of a successor.

EBATNM: The nature of leadership excercise Heinlein quite a lot

AGplusone: Campbell, which is why he manipulated him

Heinleinsmof: Maybe that’s the broader functional purpose of Hilda — she is the tactical leader of the Circle though LL is the Will of the group. And nobody is going to become too dependent on Hilda

Heinleinsmof: in the World as Myth, I mean.

EBATNM: LL = Zeus, Hilda = Athenia?

rjjusu: Maybe this could be related to EE Doc Smith and the L3 Lensman – each brought something to the fusion that made the whole greater than the parts.

AGplusone: Campbell=Oscar=the hundreds of trial heros who got us this far, sez Star

Heinleinsmof: Idon’t think those are the right archetypes.

siannon prime: She has some aspects of Demeter as well as Athena

EBATNM: oops, sorry for the speelingk

Heinleinsmof: Maybe something from the Ring cycle — Wotan undefeated and Siegfried

AGplusone: and if Campbell don’t pay off, we’ll have another coming along next generation ….

EBATNM: Wagner didn’t like “uppity” women

geeairmoe2: A good leader has to know when to step back and let his followers develope their skills, stronger strands make for a stronger rope.

EBATNM: as Star does for Oscar?

rjjusu: I think Heinlein admired the “Doc” and it wouldn’t surprise me that he considered the ending in the Children of the Lens. In some ways Smith was as “subversive” as Heinlein, just an earlier version.

AGplusone: She does share traits with Hilda, doesn’t she?

Heinleinsmof: He certainly seems to have thought so.

AGplusone: From the witching of the first arrow, onward …

EBATNM: Notice how all of Heinlein’s most successful leaders are (a) female and (b) willing to let nature take its course?

Heinleinsmof: I see we are coming up on 9:00 p.m. PST

AGplusone: which is why I laugh when the feminists attack him for weak females, boy-toy ideals

geeairmoe2: I have to be heading off. Good chatting.

AGplusone: Empress Catherine the Great was a great boy-toy, so thought all 200 of her palace guard

Heinleinsmof: Do we have necessary business before we close out this?

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

AGplusone: L. Neil next two weeks?

Heinleinsmof: I think a month from now.

DavidWrightSr: Neil is may 10-12

AGplusone: Okay, so what’s next two weeks, “families”?

Heinleinsmof: That’s what I thought. We are trying to space the author chats about every six weeks.

DavidWrightSr: Jane has a topic lined up for next time, but I don’t recall it offhand

DavidWrightSr: I think.

DavidWrightSr: I know. Teachers

Heinleinsmof: I didn’t know she had made a selection. We had four or five ideas on the table.

EBATNM: could someone, like Bill, email me the topic since I don’t get the newsgroup

AGplusone: ‘kay, she can tell us Saturday … oh, yeah, teachers!

AGplusone: give us your e mail andy …

Heinleinsmof: Oh, David, can you send Andy a link to alt.fan

Heinleinsmof: heinlein?

AGplusone: and you’ll get notices

Heinleinsmof: It’s not on his Netscape browser.

AGplusone: Sure, Andy, what browser do you use?

rjjusu: Teachers – something I know a little about for a change.

AGplusone: what version?

DavidWrightSr: Give us your address Andy and I’ll add you to my notification list

Heinleinsmof: OK — let’s schedule the families one for the next.

Heinleinsmof: Andy?

EBATNM: netscape, sorry

Heinleinsmof: Which version of netscape


AGplusone: for Windows or Mac

EBATNM: Windows

EBATNM: with the 2000 upgrade for business

AGplusone: okay, expect to hear from OJIII@home.com

DavidWrightSr: Its not the browser that’s important but whether or not his ISP offers access to it

rjjusu: Speaking of which, if you are using Exploder 5.5 without the latest security patch, you should be updating it post haste.

AGplusone: Yeah, but OJ will handle that, unless you’d like to, David

EBATNM: I used to get it from Yahoo, but now I can’t

EBATNM: dunno why

AGplusone: That registration on the heinleinsociety.org is a valid e mail isn’t it, Andy?


AGplusone: All right … goggle just picked it up … what’s the URL for goggle, Dave?

EBATNM: Does this mean I’m going to get spam from the Heinlein Society for the rest of my nature days?

EBATNM: darn it “natural”

AGplusone: Absolutely!

rjjusu: au natural days?

Heinleinsmof: Would it be possible, David, to echo the afh posts to the hs.org message boards?

siannon prime: Teachers, eh? I can say a bit about the education system

Heinleinsmof: Just the ones dealing with the AIM Readers Group discussion topics?

AGplusone: Let me find out from Jon how time consuming that would be

EBATNM: Swinging through the trees, swinging in the breeze

DavidWrightSr: www.deja.com will switch you into it, but I believe that www.google.com is the URL. The link on AG’s page will get you to it.

Heinleinsmof: He means Google, Andy

Heinleinsmof: Go on, try to find Goggle.com!

AGplusone: http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein .html

AGplusone: is the page he refers to as my page …

DavidWrightSr: Bill. was that question about echoing posts for me?

rjjusu: Goggle.com ? Isn’t that the website of dogs that fly doghouses?

DavidWrightSr: LOL

Heinleinsmof: Sorry — that was for David Silver, who is managing the website put-together for the Society

DavidWrightSr: OK. wasn’t sure

EBATNM: I will try all of the above…. Andy vows to endeavor to continue

Heinleinsmof: Though I’m sure the listing of message posts you put togehter could be echoed too — they just wouldn’t appear until the chat was over.

AGplusone: on http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein .html there’s a like says Deja.com forum:alt.fan.heinlein … use it

AGplusone: there’s a link

AGplusone: middle near the bottom


DavidWrightSr: I was checking that when I discovered that Google was showing the alt.fan.heinlein messages

Heinleinsmof: Ok –David Wright, will you follow up with Jane to make sure we get a lead-off for the next topic? And will you and Jane and Oz get together and work out who will host the families topic two weeks after that? That will take us up to L. Neil Smith.

AGplusone: If you highlight the part you want in the screen here, and Cntl C, you can copy it, and then save it to text document so you’ll have it

EBATNM: trying to do that now

Heinleinsmof: For everyone’s general info, I am going to be moving from Los Angeles to Santa Rosa, CA two weeks from now, so I am trying to offload as much as possible in the interim.

AGplusone: anything good (old Krugerands, etc.)?

DavidWrightSr: Jon talked about moving all of the archives to the society web site, but he hasn’t gotten back to me on it. I’ll check with jane on that. I think she said that she would do a leadoff as soon as we finished with this topic.

TAWN3: Why you moving Bill?

EBATNM: did it

Heinleinsmof: The short answer is: I’m going into retreat to write


EBATNM: I thought authors got an advance to write.

AGplusone: Can’t stand to be closer to me than 500 miles, Tawn, the emanations get to him … :-);-)

Heinleinsmof: Heheh

Heinleinsmof: That’s right, Andy — and have you gotten yours from Gifford yet?

TAWN3: Ahhhhh That’s it.

Heinleinsmof: Can you go into seclusion on $125?

EBATNM: No, but I can get out of Jail for $200

AGplusone: He has to wear an aluminum pie plate for the next two weeks

Heinleinsmof: Is that to protect me from the pies?

AGplusone: then, it’ll be safe to take it off

AGplusone: that too

Heinleinsmof: Cream pies, please. Banana preferred

TAWN3: Aluminum foil protects you from the psychic emanations and certain eavesdropping devices.

EBATNM: I once worked with a guy who programmed with a aluminum pie plate with a coathanger sticking out of the top and a grounding trail of paper clips to “Keep the Martians from interfering with my brain”.

AGplusone: Wife just brought home Chinese chicken salad … yum!

EBATNM: Did she bring enough for everyone?

Heinleinsmof: Does sound good. Well, we’re past the hour. Thanks, all, for coming.

Heinleinsmof: Yes, Andy: here’s your virtual portion right here.

Heinleinsmof: Do you want it in the aluminum pie plate?

AGplusone: me, Danielle, and her … and if I don’t get there soon, Bob the cat gets mine.

Heinleinsmof: The paperclips are the crunchy bits.

Heinleinsmof: Thanks for coming.


AGplusone: G’nite, all. Jani, great you came … sleep well when you finally sleep.

Heinleinsmof: *Poof*


EBATNM has left the room.

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

TAWN3: bye all

AGplusone: ——-|

DavidWrightSr: Night

siannon prime: Bye

TAWN3 has left the room.

AGplusone: G’nite Dave

rjjusu: See ya’all later!

AGplusone: Randy …. John Boy …

AGplusone has left the room.

siannon prime has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 12:10 A.M. EDT
Final End Of Discussion Log

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Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 3-29-2001 5:00 P.M. EST Guest Author: Joel Rosenberg

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 3-29-2001 5:00 P.M. EST

Guest Author: Joel Rosenberg

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


This next chat will be a guest author chat. We have had some in the past that have been very enjoyable and I am looking forward to this one as I’ve been reading Joel’s books for about 15 years. Obviously, the more by an author you can read before the chat the better so that you can really grill him but I thought I’d just give a brief summary of what Joel’s written to allow people to pick the books that suit them as he has written quite a few books covering a range of genres.

Guardians of the Flame (GotF) This was where I started all those years ago. There are nine books in this series, the most recent, Not Quite Scaramouche, is out in hardcover and is the only one I haven’t read. The unusual thing about this series is that it covers a fairly long spell of time rather than keeping the lead characters in an unnatural stasis of strength and youth and it has, from time to time come to a halt and gone off at an angle with the focus being on other characters or the next generation. The last two books, Not Exactly The Three Musketeers and Not Quite Scaramouche illustrate this quite well as the three leads were peripheral characters in a few of the earlier books but now hold centre stage.

Anyway, enough of the babbling; the story begins in The Sleeping Dragon; a group of college kids are playing D and D (which I was doing in rl when I first read these books) and their Professor, who is acting as the Dungeon Master sends them, in the roles that they were playing, into the fantasy world of the game. Some now have magical powers, some can heal, some are warriors..one is no longer human.

The world has one major flaw; slavery is a way of life. After incurring the wrath of the slavers the adventurers are forced to make a stand against the whole institution. They set up a village and begin to attack slavers, reinvent superior weapons and gunpowder and re educate enough of the locals to make their settlement viable.

The series follows their adventures, has a major shock for readers at the end of book four and is full of Heinlein references. Heinlein even makes as appearance in Walter’s dreams in The Road Home;

“Under a short brush mustache his smile is not entirely friendly but completely reassuring. He holds his back too straight, beyond that which you expect from a fencer, and maybe that’s because he’s always been a stiff-necked old bastard, with every bit as much stubbornness as insight – but that’s his virtue, not his flaw, and even in a dream I wouldn’t change a hair on his permanently balding head any more than I’d dare to change a word he’d written.”

Joel makes it clear that’s Walter speaking not him btw.

Notice the reference to fencing; that’s another theme, like hatred of slavery that Joel’s books share with Heinlein’s. The three books (more to come hopefully) of the Keeper of the Hidden Ways series focus strongly on a world linked to ours through magical passages where differences of opinion are settled by duels. A swordsman who helped a prisoner to escape that world and took refuge in ours, marries and has a son who, together with his friends, go back and forth between the worlds searching for the jewels of the Brisingamen which contain the missing matter of the Universe and, in the wrong hands could bring about Armageddon. The descriptions of a small town in Dakota and the way they react to the intrusion of the magical world into ours is very well done.

Joel also wrote two books that could be described as Poirot meets the Arabian Nights. well…sort of. D’Shai and Hour of the Octopus are fantasies set in a world where society is in three layers, nobility, middle and peasants with all that that implies. People have talents that can be magically enhanced at will, some are better at it than others. The hero of the books is one of a troupe of acrobats. His sister is killed by a noble and in investigating her death he discovers that his true vocation is the new talent of detection rather than being an acrobat.

The description of the society and the marrying of two genres set this series in a space of its own. Maybe it was too different for some readers but I like these books very much as I am a fan of both fantasy and mystery books.

Finally, there are Joel’s SF books, military SF for the most part and all set in the same universe, though not in the same time span. The major link between them is the planet Metzada, home to Jewish mercenaries and their families. A bare rock of a planet, they can only survive by hiring themselves out as an elite fighting force. Hero and Not For Glory is specifically about them and the character of Shimon is reminiscent of Baslim in COTG.

Links to COTG can also be found ( without any hint of plagiarism) in Ties of Blood and Silver. Here, a youngster, kidnapped as a child from his rich family, is brought up as a beggar and thief by Carlos, a one handed tunnel dweller. See what I mean? But it’s not quite that simple and the characters don’t play the same roles as Thorby and Baslim. It’s going to be hard to get this book but it would be a good one to discuss on the chat.

Finally, Emile and the Dutchman is a story of a team whose job is to check out alien planets, accessible through Star gates and seal them off if need be, depending on how dangerous the aliens are.

Ok, I’m exhausted…anyone read any by Joel? Any favourites? Start thinking of questions to ask, points to raise…less than a week to go.



In article, ddavitt



>This next chat will be a guest author chat. We have had some in the

>past that have been very enjoyable and I am looking forward to this

>one as I’ve been reading Joel’s books for about 15 years.



>Joel also wrote two books that could be described as Poirot meets

>the Arabian Nights. well…sort of. D’Shai and Hour of the Octopus

>are fantasies set in a world where society is in three layers,

>nobility, middle and peasants with all that that implies. People

>have talents that can be magically enhanced at will, some are better

>at it than others. The hero of the books is one of a troupe of

>acrobats. His sister is killed by a noble and in investigating her

>death he discovers that his true vocation is the new talent of

>detection rather than being an acrobat.

I think you have the wrong end of Asia – IMHO, these are set in a Japanese analog.


— robertaw@halcyon.com http://www.halcyon.com/robertaw/



“Robert A. Woodward” wrote:


>I think you have the wrong end of Asia – IMHO, these are set in a

>Japanese analog.



Interesting; when my husband read my post he said; “But D’Shai was Chinese!”

Arabian Nights was an attempt to give a flavour of what the world was like; not intended to be taken literally. I was in a rush :-)

I don’t think it has a one on one with any terrestrial system but the protocol and the honour/duty obligations do seem to be similar to those of Ancient China/Japan ( having said that, I don’t know a lot about either so I’m willing to be corrected).

The lords/peasants bit can apply equally to Europe in the medieval times or Russia and its serfs….that’s fairly universal.

We don’t see the whole planet of course; only one or two small areas. On a different angle, how do you read the phenomenon of raising kazuh? The first time I read the books I was wondering if it was non magical; a sort of super fast self hypnosis and meditation combined. Having just read them again for the chat I don’t know if it is magic; there are real wizards in the story after all and not everything they do can be explained away. For those who haven’t read them, the wizards have a rather good approach to healing broken bones. Simplified version; they take a skeleton, run wires from it to an unbroken bone on the patient and phlogiston runs between the two bones; law of similarity. Then they break the skeletons bones in the same place as the breaks on the patient and glue them together, thus mending both sets. Clever!

Actually that’s something I’ve noticed about all Joel’s books; there is always a way of instant healing or a method of dulling the pain without making someone unconscious. The GotF series would have ended in book one with everyone dead if it weren’t for those handy healing potions, well known to anyone who’s played D and D. I’m not sure if this is cheating or not…



Jane Davitt wrote a summary of Rosenberg’s _Guardians of the Flame_ series which is where I’m trying to begin reading him:

::Anyway, enough of the babbling; the story begins in The Sleeping

::Dragon; a group of college kids are playing D and D ( which I was

::doing in rl when I first read these books) and their Professor, who

::is acting as the Dungeon Master sends them, in the roles that they

::were playing, into the fantasy world of the game. Some now have

::magical powers, some can heal, some are warriors..one is no longer


“Dungeons and Dragons” was something I never played, although I noted what I thought of as its escapism was popular among draft-eligible students while I was in college in the late sixties and continues popular on through its computer manifestations such as Myst, etc. What I know of it comes from my own daughter’s playing it with friends her own age fifteen years or so ago. I’m also handicapped in being unable to begin at the beginning, or will be at least until I receive and can read the used hardbound book that I’ve mail-ordered that I found available from a dealer listed in “www.bookfinders.com” containing all four the original stories; but I do have the last two of those original four stories, _The Silver Crown_, which I’m reading now, and _The Road to Ehvenor_, as well as the later ones up to but not including _Not Quite Scaramouche_ which I glanced over briefly last week before I found as stopgaps old paperback copies of the earlier stories, yesterday.

For those interested, there is a bookdealer in Chicago listed on Rosenberg’s homepage that is supposed to carry many of the earlier out-of-print books. See,

I can recognize clearly the D & D game in the stories I’m reading: that fantasy is the skeleton of the stories: dwarves, elves, dragons, wizards, spells, healing draughts, swords and human heroes overcoming diverse dangers in episodic encounters. I’m coming into the series in media res: the group of college kids, those left, have already created from freed slaves and others a little island of free civilization they call “Home” out on the border of a feudal world governed by elfin overlords. Karl Cullinane is their heroic warrior leader, Walter Slovotsky his cynical side-kick, Louis Riccetti the engineering student who as “the Engineer” has introduced, manufactures for them and tries to keep exclusive their secret weapon: gunpowder, and its attendant flint and steel handarms. The others remaining include the lady whom Cullinane has cleved unto as wife, a former student named Andrea who has grown into the role she was playing to become a wizard of some ability and a dwarf named Ahira which form once was the game role of a student named James Michael but now is his being. Some’ve started families: Walter and Andrea’s children are about armpit high. They’re involved in a war to the death with “slavers” who seem allied with most of the wizards in this Other Side they’ve been transported to by their Professor. And an ‘arms-race’ has begun … , with the elves trying to trade gold and protection for the secret of gunpowder and the slavers and their wizard allies creating their own spell-fortified substitute therefor.

There’s an echo here, of course, of Robert Heinlein’s story: _Elsewhen_, with the Professor who transports his small seminar of five students into what originally are separate other worlds, but only so far as I can see, a slight one thus far.

I’ll have to wait until my ordered volume arrives before I can read in proper sequence about the “stiff-necked old bastard” who holds his “back too straight” in _The Road Home_, which follows the original four. For now, I’m stuck with Karl and Walter mostly, along with a cast of followers, freed slaves, dwarves, Walter’s friendly dragon, from this new world. From the two major human actors–Cullinane and Slovotsky, I’m reminded of other fictional pairs: the impulsive actor and his introspective alter ego, e.g., Aubrey and Maturin from Patrick O’Brien’s recently and abruptly ended set of sea stories among others who come to mind; but there are distinctions. Here, a form of telepathic communication between some former students is facilitated by the aforesaid friendly dragon who, when in range, functions as a central switchboard and conduit. The dragon also grazes on mountain lions, apparently, a whimsical habit having some utility to humans in a heavily silvan frontier.

So far, from what little I’ve read, these are mostly romance or adventure novels. There’s nowhere near the amount of didactic intrusion we’re used to with Heinlein’s stories. Perhaps some of that comes later, or less directly.

There’s been a little bit of reference to a Constitution of this nascent community of freed slaves Cullinane heads, inspired by the putative and claimed patron saint of libertarians: Jefferson; but such a smidgeon, a reference to his failure to foretell the need for proxy or absenteeism voting in it — warriors out on the frontier cannot abandon their posts and missions to return to vote at a New England sort of town meeting called to decide whether to accept the tendered friendship and sovereignity of an Elfin overlord, that I cannot conclude anything significant yet to address the points raised two weeks or more ago in some posts by a visitor. There’s a talismen, a golden collar of slavery, forged by a dwarf at Karl’s insistence, used by him to argue against the security of this offer from the Elfin overlord.

More later this week, perhaps after I get two or three of these stories behind me. I’m enjoying these so far, even with the slow plot pacing.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”


Ooops! I wrote:

>For those interested, there is a bookdealer in Chicago listed on Rosenberg’s

>homepage that is supposed to carry many of the earlier out-of-print books.


which should be followed with this: http://www.winternet.com/~joelr/

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”


AGplusone wrote:


>So far, from what little I’ve read, these are mostly romance or adventure

>novels. There’s nowhere near the amount of didactic intrusion we’re used to

>with Heinlein’s stories. Perhaps some of that comes later, or less directly.




There is some David..ISTR it being a lot more focused on interaction between people; how to recognise what they will do, influence their behaviour by manipulation of their vanities or desires and a lot of what it takes to be a leader.

There are very few author speeches; it’s mostly done through the reader hearing a character’s thoughts.



Jane wrote, concerning themes Rosenberg’s works share with Heinlein:

>Notice the reference to fencing; that’s another theme, like hatred

>of slavery that Joel’s books share with Heinlein’s.

You’ve mentioned but not emphasized one major theme, perhaps predictably. What do you think of this point, Jane, quoted from the end of Part 2 of _The Silver Crown_ which is book three of the Guardians of the Flame series, as Karl thinks of himself as the unrelenting adversary [“weedkiller”] of slavery, and then thinks again:

“No. Lou Riccetti was the weedkiller, although eventually the secret of gunpowder would get out. And that might not be a bad thing. Like them or not, guns were a leveling phenomena, a democratizing one, in the long run. ‘All men are created equal,’ people would say, ‘Lou Riccetti made them that way.'”

See, a gun thread for you! Whatever happened to that nice author and player of D & D, Joel Rosenberg, you used to read?

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”


AGplusone wrote:

>Jane wrote, concerning themes Rosenberg’s works share with Heinlein:


>>Notice the reference to fencing; that’s another theme, like hatred

>>of slavery that Joel’s books share with Heinlein’s.


>You’ve mentioned but not emphasized one major theme, perhaps predictably. What

>do you think of this point, Jane, quoted from the end of Part 2 of _The Silver

>Crown_ which is book three of the Guardians of the Flame series, as Karl thinks

>of himself as the unrelenting adversary [“weedkiller”] of slavery, and then

>thinks again:


>”No. Lou Riccetti was the weedkiller, although eventually the secret of

>gunpowder would get out. And that might not be a bad thing. Like them or not,

>guns were a leveling phenomena, a democratizing one, in the long run. ‘All men

>are created equal,’ people would say, ‘Lou Riccetti made them that way.'”


>See, a gun thread for you! Whatever happened to that nice author and player of

>D & D, Joel Rosenberg, you used to read?



He is still an _American_ author, David….and I defy you (she says, knowing Deja/Google isn’t fully up and running, or wasn’t last time I looked) to find any gun thread where I argued that they weren’t necessary within a dangerous, frontier type environment. My recent article on Red Planet in The Heinlein Journal ( shameless plug) says that the colonists needed their guns for protection…I just didn’t like the way Jim went for his at the slightest hint of opposition or trouble.

The world into which Karl and friends were sent was a curious mixture; primitive in some ways but with magic giving it some advantages that would be impossible to duplicate on The Other Side; healing draughts being the obvious one. They needed the edge of superior weaponry because they only had a limited amount of magical talent…and a dragon. He’s another very handy plot device ( as well as being as appealing as Sir Isaac in many ways).

Swords are still used more for fighting though; especially in honour situations. And Ricetti makes way more things than weapons; electricity, communications, heating..he is trying to build Rome in a day of course but when you’re recreating, not inventing from scratch, it’s amazing how fast you can go.

I like this sort of story; Lest Darkness Fall, the Frankowski series if you get rid of some of the sub plots and , of course, the middle portion of Farnham’s Freehold. I wish it had been given more airtime in the books; the effect of a handful of strangers on a whole world because of their different knowledge is intriguing. And if they hadn’t had their character’s strengths and powers..they’d probably have all die around chapter 5.

Oh, and although they do keep one step ahead of the slavers, it’s interesting that a magical version of a gun appears at one point. It’s never safe to assume that the natives are stupid because they don’t have TV and other civilizing influences :-))



Jane replied, concerning the gun thread in the “Guardians of the Flame” series by Rosenberg:

>He is still an _American_ author, David… [snip]


But, Jane, you do recognize that when Karl thinks of Lou as the “great equalizer,” he’s merely repeating what was said of Col. Samuel Colt, inventor of the six-shooter?

>The world into which Karl and friends were sent was a curious mixture; primitive

>in some ways but with magic giving it some advantages that would be impossible to

>duplicate on The Other Side; healing draughts being the obvious one. They

>needed the edge of superior weaponry

But not wholly against the frontier, per se, against other sentient beings, including significantly those who would enslave them, either directly or by a friendly offer of the golden collar which would make them subjects rather than free citizenry, e.g., the elfin overlord. That viewpoint, of course, is again a particularly _American_ one.

>I like this sort of story; [snip]

>I wish it had been given more airtime in the books; the effect of a handful of

>strangers on a whole world because of their different knowledge is intriguing.And

>if they hadn’t had their character’s strengths and powers..they’d probably have all

>die around chapter 5.

I think perhaps the classic example of this sort of story comes from history, not fiction: Xenophone, and the only exotic strength and power those 10,000 mercenaries had was their discipline and single-minded decision that they would not accept enslavement to a King that desired and pursued them with an army of slaves.

David M. Silver


“I expect your names to shine!”


AGplusone wrote:

>Jane replied, concerning the gun thread in the “Guardians of the Flame” series

>by Rosenberg:


>>He is still an _American_ author, David… [snip]




>But, Jane, you do recognize that when Karl thinks of Lou as the “great

>equalizer,” he’s merely repeating what was said of Col. Samuel Colt, inventor

>of the six-shooter?



Yes; I went through a cowboy book phase when I was about 12 so I’m familiar with that expression. The books I read went into a lot of detail about “The Peacemakers”, if I’m remembering the term correctly.

It wasn’t true though, not totally. It might have levelled the playing field a bit but the man or woman who had better gun _skills_ was still going to beat someone with a better gun who was short sighted, not as fast on the draw ( though that was probably less of an issue in every day life) or just not as good at shooting.



On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:27:03 -0500, ddavitt


>Yes; I went through a cowboy book phase when I was about 12 so I’m familiar with

>that expression. The books I read went into a lot of detail about “The

>Peacemakers”, if I’m remembering the term correctly.

>It wasn’t true though, not totally. It might have levelled the playing field a bit

>but the man or woman who had better gun _skills_ was still going to beat someone

>with a better gun who was short sighted, not as fast on the draw ( though that was

>probably less of an issue in every day life) or just not as good at shooting.

Nonsense. As long as you have a bare minimum of skill, you can win a gunfight. The secret is to catch your opponent from behind at point-blank range, and empty your weapon into him. It helps if he’s drunk.

That high noon stuff is just plain dumb and way too dangerous.

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com


“John M. Atkinson” wrote:


>Nonsense. As long as you have a bare minimum of skill, you can win a

>gunfight. The secret is to catch your opponent from behind at

>point-blank range, and empty your weapon into him. It helps if he’s



>That high noon stuff is just plain dumb and way too dangerous.


>John M. Atkinson

>yahoo dot com

Notice how I mentioned that point? Naturally, in my cowboy books, that sort of thing happened on a regular basis and the heroes were way too nice to shoot people in the back. Might the forensical investigators of the time have frowned on that? Maybe not. However, you have to have an opponent who’s pretty dumb himself if he lets you creep up behind him and point blank range would be needed for someone unfamiliar with weapons. It really isn’t just point and click..hey, you’re the soldier! You should know that!



On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:16:23 -0500, ddavitt


>Notice how I mentioned that point? Naturally, in my cowboy books, that sort of thing

>happened on a regular basis and the heroes were way too nice to shoot people in the

>back. Might the forensical investigators of the time have frowned on that? Maybe not

. >However, you have to have an opponent who’s pretty dumb himself if he lets you creep up

>behind him and point blank range would be needed for someone unfamiliar with weapons.

>It really isn’t just point and click..hey, you’re the soldier! You should know that!

True. But the first time I picked up a pistol and shot it with live ammo, it was at a qualification range. And I didn’t do too poorly. I could kill someone from ambush at close range.

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com


>From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

>Yes; I went through a cowboy book phase when I was about 12 so I’m familiar


>that expression. The books I read went into a lot of detail about “The

>Peacemakers”, if I’m remembering the term correctly.

>It wasn’t true though, not totally. It might have levelled the playing field

>a bit

>but the man or woman who had better gun _skills_ was still going to beat


>with a better gun who was short sighted, not as fast on the draw ( though

>that was

>probably less of an issue in every day life) or just not as good at shooting


He (or she) would also beat someone with no gun at all, kind of the whole point.

It would be really be nice if we didn’t have to have confrontations of that nature. But as long as we remain human beings, we are going to have them. When we do, the equalizers count.

Even if we could somehow get rid of all guns (note our highly successful war on drugs)other factors would come into play. The person who was better with a knife, or fists, or ninja weapons, or whatever would then have the advantage. Give me the gun. I am more likely to be equal with it than with other weapons.

[LV Poker Player]

Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!


On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:27:28 -0500, ddavitt


>I like this sort of story; Lest Darkness Fall, the Frankowski series if you get rid

>of some of the sub plots and , of course, the middle portion of Farnham’s Freehold.


Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?

What series?

All I’ve seen of his is the aforementioned and Fata Morgana.

Did he write something else?

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com


“John M. Atkinson” wrote:



>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?


>What series?


>All I’ve seen of his is the aforementioned and Fata Morgana.


>Did he write something else?



Both of them looked rubbish and I’ve gone right off him but the first few books in his Cross Time Engineer series were promising. It’s about Conrad, a man from our time who is out hiking and is suddenly back in 1231AD Poland, ten years before the Mongols were due to destroy it. He puts his modern knowledge and memories of history to work, trying to stop this. 5 or 6 in the series, the last one quite recently after a very long gap. He also wrote a stand alone about tree houses that eat people. Copernick’s Rebellion. I’m over simplifying here :-)



On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:12:15 -0500, ddavitt


>Both of them looked rubbish and I’ve gone right off him but the first few books in his

Boy and His Tank is hysterically funny.

>Cross Time Engineer series were promising. It’s about Conrad, a man from our time who is

>out hiking and is suddenly back in 1231AD Poland, ten years before the Mongols were due

>to destroy it. He puts his modern knowledge and memories of history to work, trying to

>stop this. 5 or 6 in the series, the last one quite recently after a very long gap.

>He also wrote a stand alone about tree houses that eat people. Copernick’s Rebellion.

>I’m over simplifying here :-)

Now here’s the fun question–do those exist outside of used book stores anymore? I’ll have to do some looking.

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com


>From: johnmatkinson@nospam.com



>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?


>What series?


>All I’ve seen of his is the aforementioned and Fata Morgana.


>Did he write something else?


The Crosstime Engineer.

I’m drawing a blank on the individual titles, but there were six books in all (five published originally, then a sixth fairly recently.) It involves Conrad Stargard, a modern engineer who is transported to medeival Poland and starts the industrial revolution a little early.

I liked it, but I could see flaws as well.

[LV Poker Player]

Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!



>Stargard, a modern engineer who is transported to medeival Poland and starts

>the industrial revolution a little early.

The Radiant Knight is I think the 5th of them. I’m all packed up so don’t have any of them out, but they were page turners. More like Anderson than de Camp, to my mind. He’s got a clock problem — the Mongol horde is due to devaste Poland in a decade or so and he’s trying to get the Poles in shape to turn the invasion aside.



“John M. Atkinson” wrote:

>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?

>What series?

“The Crosstime Engineer” or some such. Basically, a shameless plug for what a superior grade of human his card-carrying-Mensan protagonist is. Franko can’t go two biographical sentences without mentioning his own card.

Extremely elitist, extremely sexist k-r-a-p.

| James Gifford – Nitrosyncretic Press – gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |

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On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:14:50 -0800, James Gifford


>”John M. Atkinson” wrote:

>>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?

>>What series?


>”The Crosstime Engineer” or some such. Basically, a shameless plug for

>what a superior grade of human his card-carrying-Mensan protagonist is

. >Franko can’t go two biographical sentences without mentioning his own



I didn’t see that in either of his other two books.

>Extremely elitist, extremely sexist k-r-a-p.

Define elitist. Elitist is an accusation that a lot of people are pretty free with nowdays. It has been used to mean strange notions like “competence is good” or “intelligent people are better at technical things” or such anti-egalitarian sentiments.

John M. Atkinson

yahoo dot com

“The soldier is the Army. No Army is better than it’s soldiers. The soldier is also a citizen. In fact, the highest obligation and priviledge of citizenship is that of bearing arms for one’s country.”

— General George S. Patton, USA


On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 05:19:17 GMT, johnmatkinson@nospam.com (John M. Atkinson) insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>Define elitist. Elitist is an accusation that a lot of people are

>pretty free with nowdays. It has been used to mean strange notions

>like “competence is good” or “intelligent people are better at

>technical things” or such anti-egalitarian sentiments.


I enjoyed the books – though less so as the series progressed. If you are interested and have trouble locating them, give me an email.

Isn’t there is also a accepted definition of elitism that equates it with snobbery or the unwarranted/untested assumption that a particular class, or group of individuals are superior beings?.


We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people.

Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.

George S. Patton Jr.


jon ogden wrote:



>I enjoyed the books – though less so as the series progressed.



Same here…I can’t remember them that well and although I still own them I don’t want to read them again just to be able to say for sure what I didn’t like. I have an impression of the lead being very nasty to his wife and forever sleeping with young blondes; not because he wanted to but because they made him. Yeah, right.

I also ( and this may be what Jim meant) think he got very arrogant because of his knowledge of the future and did some questionable things in pursuit of his goals. Further than that I can’t go; must have been 10 years since I read them.



This is sort of a different sub-thread.

Some three and one-half weeks ago, in a series of posts on another thread criticizing the choice of Joel Rosenberg as a guest author, Bill Williams observed, inter alia, that:

::*Shrug!* I can’t help undertaking such analysis. It doesn’t

::seem to detract from my enjoyment of well-written fiction.

::Indeed, it seems to enhance my appreciation. In Mr.

::Rosenberg’s stuff, by the way, I find an iteration of a

::problem that crops up continually in fantasy written since

::the great “Swords-and-Sorcery” boom began in the ’70s,

::and that has much to do with the economics of the social

::systems in which they’re set. To put it militarily, the *logistics*

::just don’t make sense.

::One of the things I’ve always loved about Heinlein, by the

::way, is the fact that even as I’ve gone back to reread

::the stories and novels of his that I’d read as a child and as

::a teen-ager, the logistics in *his* stuff ALWAYS works. The

::man was an Academy-trained naval officer, and by ghod

::it shows. How the hell he wasn’t snapped up by some

::smart operator in the munitions industry when the Navy

::medically discharged him I will *never* know.

I had to look at this criticism and judge its fairness myself. What follows is pretty long, so skip it if you will.

The “logistics” of fantasy, if fantasy is divided in definition from science fiction strictly as Heinlein did, always necessarily must be suspect, for fantasy must necessarily occur in a universe in which things which are not possible exist, but also in which given our present understanding of science, with reasonable extrapolation thereon, such things cannot exist. Such criticisms can apply to works, as Heinlein noted in the essay “Ray Guns and Rocket Ships,” reprinted in _Extended Universe_ (1980, Ace Books trade paper edition, at 373 ff.), as diverse in scope and quality as the _Odyssey_, Buck Rogers, and Burrough’s Martian stories.

In all these stories, a certain deus ex machina exists, for good or ill, capable of causing the impossible, or at least the impossible as we presently can conceive it rationally, to happen. E.g., unfavorable winds are wrapped up in a bag by a friendly god, winged humanoids are involved in wars with other humanoids, and an oviparous being ends up in marriage if not producing issue was a homo sap [I really have an only vague recollection of Buck Rogers–and that only from early movies–and of the Burrough’s stories following _Princess of Mars_, so I could be wrong about whether Dejah Thoris and John Carter had progeny]. Or as Heinlein put it negatively, fantasy or such adventures include things such as ” … rocket ships that make U-turns, serpent men of Neptune that lust after human maidens, and stories by authors who flunked their Boy Scout merit badge tests in descriptive astronomy.” Id, at 374.

So this given must be present for us to call it either fantasy or adventure occurring in exotic or nonexistent locales, as Heinlein might have called some of Rosenberg’s writings.

And the “Guardians of the Flame” series that I’m now reading for the first time to prepare for our guest’s visit is necessarily fantasy as it occurs in a world on The Other Side inhabited by Dragons, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards, et al., just as did Heinlein’s own _Glory Road_ and “Elsewhen.”

But I am not certain from what I’ve read of Rosenberg thus far that his *logistics* — militarily speaking, are that incredible, once the façade of fantastic characters is ripped away. Bear in mind that only two things here occur, militarily speaking, in _The Silver Crown_, that are fantastic logistics. Spells are employed by wizards, good and bad; and a dragon is used as a cargo carrier, just as an R4D or C-47 Gooney Bird might be [that’s called and misspelled a “Dakotah” by you other English-speaking sorts]. The war episode in Poul Anderson begins his _Operation Chaos_, consciously written by him in emulation of the _Magic, Inc._ universe created by RAH, contained far more fantasies–and lots more dragons, an entire Armored Corps of them (it would take me a couple hundred words to list all of the fantasy just in military roles).

Logistics, militarily speaking, is that branch of military science having to do with procuring, maintaining, and transporting materiél, personnel, and facilities. IOW, what J-4 and J-1 down through S-4 and S-1 does at command levels down through battalion, and what the first sergeant, the company clerk, the cook, and the supply sergeant and any subordinates do at the company level, usually, if they’re lucky in a leg infantry unit, with the one jeep and trailer that used to be allotted to them, and whatever else they can beg, borrow, trade for or steal.

There is a military operation that comprises the middle third of _The Silver Crown_, the relief of Furnael Keep from siege by Karl Cullinane, et co. It involves military logistics, so let’s look at it and see how far-fetched the writing may be.

Baron Furnael and his troops and dependents, numbering somewhere between 200 and 500, we don’t know exactly, are bottled up in their tower keep by a force of about 1,000 Holt troops in a war that has been started by the Prince of Biemstren, Furnael’s overlord, that originally went well for Biemstren, but now that the Slaver’s Guild is providing Holt with magic-powered pseudo firearms is going very badly.

There’s even a description of how these psuedo “firearms” work that sounds plausible to a dumb English major prepared to suspend his disbelief: Riccetti, the former engineering student, and Cullinane’s wife, Andrea Andropolis, who was transported to the other side in her play role of wizard, analyze captured arms and munitions thus: the “slaver powder” is a mixture of tiny blue flecks and white flecks, copper sulfate (white) and cupric sulfate (blue) which is simply copper sulfate that has deliquesced (absorbed water, usually atmospheric) that is somehow (here comes the magic) contained within an unbreakable sphere by strong spells (the magic) so that if sufficient more water is suddenly introduced within the sphere passing through it one way, in the same “unbreakable” sphere tremendous heat transforms the water into steam sufficient to “explode” out of the sphere and propel a projectile down your standard musket barrel. Well, yeah, okay, fine … but that’s the explanation given. I’ll leave it to those of you who attended classes down on places like UCLA’s South Campus wearing slide rules down your legs in the scabbards we used to buy to pick that apart, but Rosenberg’s made an effort to extrapolate something sensible from science into magic. What’s the quote I’ve heard variously attributed to Arthur C. Clarke and perhaps others to the effect of that one man’s magic is another man’s science?

Back to logistics: Cullinane finds out about these pseudo guns and this siege as a result of a ambush by him and a small party on a slaver’s caravan they encounter while deploying most of his party to stations on the frontier defenses of Home, the small state he and the other ex-students have formed. He has to send most of the raiding party on to deployment, leaving himself with a corporal’s guard as escort, about eight mounted troops in all. If Cullinane is to relieve the siege of Furnael, to whose ruling family he owes an obligation, he has to procure, maintain, and transport sufficient materiél, personnel, and facilities to the siege (and since his own troops aren’t available, he has to train the new ones along the way, what we call a “3” staff function).

So how unrealistic is the way the author allows Cullinane to do it? Here’s how:

Step 1:

From interrogation of prisoners (“2″ staff function), Cullinane finds that the trade of these pseudo guns is being conducted in a neutral free trade city which has slapped an embargo on trading for guns to avoid being a target of one side or the other. The hired guard of this town consists of mercenaries, from a remote state currently uninvolved in the wars between human principalities that the slavers are prolonging to their profit to slave trading of captives of the contesting armies and refugees they scoop up themselves. The mercenaries adhere to a code of honor. Their honor has been offended by the deceptions made by those who dealt in the firearms. Cullinane manipulates the guard commander into asking that his command be discharged by the free city of its obligati