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Heinlein Readers Group Discussion
Thursday 11/01/2007 9:00 P.M. EST
Heinlein's Aliens

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Heinlein's Aliens From: Tim Morgan <>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:48:23 -0000

WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
[Editor's Note: Re-scheduled for Nov. 1, 2007]
WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
TOPIC: Heinlein's Aliens

The heading for these posts always says "The usual AIM chatroom." In case you're wondering what that means, and it's been holding you back from joining us, you can find all of this information at this location:

That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.

For this month's discussion, we're leaving our usual format of discussing a specific book and instead we're looking at a cross-book topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by "aliens", I mean sentient beings who interact with the humans, not life forms we'd normally classify as animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein's books, there are few if any aliens, while in others, they're very prominently featured or a central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division isn't "juvenile" vs. "adult". Which aliens are your favorites, or least favorites?

And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his alien life forms. Willis and the Star Beast come to mind, for instance. Or a surprise in the other direction, there are the Jocks. Besides making an interesting story, what's Heinlein trying to say here?

Please join us in pre-discussion on the newsgroup, and in the real- time discussion next week.

Tim Morgan
for The Heinlein Society

From: et...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
Date: 16 Oct 2007 04:21:57 GMT
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein's Aliens
Tim Morgan ( writes:
> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
> TOPIC: Heinlein's Aliens

> The heading for these posts always says "The usual AIM chatroom."  In
> case you're wondering what that means, and it's been holding you back
> from joining us, you can find all of this information at this
> location:


> That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.

> For this month's discussion, we're leaving our usual format of
> discussing a specific book and instead we're looking at a cross-book
> topic, aliens in Heinlein.  And by "aliens", I mean sentient beings
> who interact with the humans, not life forms we'd normally classify as
> animals.  I noted that in many of Heinlein's books, there are few if
> any aliens, while in others, they're very prominently featured or a
> central focus of the story.  Why do you think that is?  The division
> isn't "juvenile" vs. "adult".  Which aliens are your favorites, or
> least favorites?

At least they aren't like Asimov books that have no aliens.

Surely the lack of aliens is derived from the stories themselves. If the story isn't at a point in future history where alien life has been reached, one can hardly have aliens. Witness "Door INto Summer"; the lack of aliens fits the story. Even a book like "TIme for the Stars", the lack of aliens isn't shocking since even best estimates say life would hardly be common, the book itself even points out that it would be rare to find a planet of the right combination of things to sustain any life.

Some of the stories have the aliens as key components, such as "Red Planet". The book would be different without Willis. Some stories do seem to have incidental aliens, "Between Planets" being an example, where Sir Isaac's role could be played by someone else, yet the aliens were needed to show a disparate solar system, yet which is united on some level.

What might be more interesting is the nature of the aliens. They all tend to be "human like" to some extent, though not necessarily in form. Communication is possible because there is common ground. The aliens aren't really esoteric, such as talking plants or rocks.

And generally the aliens in the stories are friendly. Well there are the Bugs in "Starship Troopers" but you could hardly have a war novel without an enemy. And the whatever in "Have Space Suit" but even then, the tone seemed to be that they weren't evil but simply couldn't grasp that humans were anything more than lowly animals.

There doesn't seem to be much if any "first encounter". Generally, the aliens are a given, they are part of the landscape. That sets up a different type of story from "land on a planet, meet the aliens and have intercourse". But then, the books are less about exploring unknown planets than an existing universe.

Which in the end all likely defines things. Writers tend to write similarly, so Hal Clement was terribly interested in creating different types of aliens, sometimes in quite different environment. Others wanted to write about exploring. I'm not sure how one would define Heinlein, but he seemed to be more interested in the science and the people rather than exotic life forms.


From: "David Wright Sr." <>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:14:52 +0000
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein's Aliens
> Tim Morgan ( writes:
>> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
>> TOPIC: Heinlein's Aliens

I received this in response to the general invitation I sent out. (If you wish to have your name added to the Readers Group notification list, email me at

----- Original Message -----
From: "jrc" <>
To: "David Wright" <>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:04 AM
Subject: Re:

>  And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled
> certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his
> alien life forms

Ginny once mentioned to me that the Martians in Red Planet
and Stranger are the same.

Jim Cunningham

David E. Wright Sr.

From: Chris Zakes <>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:29:22 -0500
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein's Aliens
>Tim Morgan ( writes:
>> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
>> TOPIC: Heinlein's Aliens

>> The heading for these posts always says "The usual AIM chatroom."  In
>> case you're wondering what that means, and it's been holding you back
>> from joining us, you can find all of this information at this
>> location:


>> That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.

>> For this month's discussion, we're leaving our usual format of
>> discussing a specific book and instead we're looking at a cross-book
>> topic, aliens in Heinlein.  And by "aliens", I mean sentient beings
>> who interact with the humans, not life forms we'd normally classify as
>> animals.  I noted that in many of Heinlein's books, there are few if
>> any aliens, while in others, they're very prominently featured or a
>> central focus of the story.  Why do you think that is?  The division
>> isn't "juvenile" vs. "adult".  Which aliens are your favorites, or
>> least favorites?

>At least they aren't like Asimov books that have no aliens.

>Surely the lack of aliens is derived from the stories themselves.
>If the story isn't at a point in future history where alien life
>has been reached, one can hardly have aliens.  Witness "Door Imto
>Summer";  the lack of aliens fits the story.  Even a book like
>"Time for the Stars", the lack of aliens  isn't shocking since even
>best estimates say life would hardly be common, the book itself
>even points out that it would be rare to find a planet of the
>right combination of things to sustain any life.

A quibble: There are definitely aliens in "Time for the Stars." Remember the last planet they come to before being retrieved by the new-style interstellar ship--the mostly water world, with the giant snake-like critters who end up killing about half the crew.

        -Chris Zakes

Even a man who is pure in heart
And says his prayers at night
May become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms
And the autumn moon is bright. 

From: "Dr. Rufo" <>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:07:43 -0800
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein's Aliens
Tim Morgan wrote:

< snip >

> I noted that in many of Heinlein's books, there are few if
> any aliens, while in others, they're very prominently featured or a
> central focus of the story.  Why do you think that is?  

The story may require the aliens and that is when they're included. e.g. the Martian trees in DOUBLE STAR. The Empire in that book includes both humans and non-humans and part of the story involves assuring equal civil rights for all citizens. An issue that was beginning to warm up in the U.S. at the time of the book's publication.
By the way, while the Martians in RED PLANET and SiaSL seem to be the same; I've always had the notion that the Martians alluded to in PODKAYNE were a re-issue of those in DOUBLE STAR.

> The division
> isn't "juvenile" vs. "adult".  Which aliens are your favorites, or
> least favorites?Pos

The aliens I like most are the ones I've been able to imagine in my mind from the details RAH presents. E.g. Sir Isaac Newton in BETWEEN PLANETS. He's always seemed to me to be a Heinleinian combination of the dancing hippopotami in Disney's FANTASIA and every effeminate, upper-class British twit written into a film.
Ditto-ditto the wormfaces in HSS-WT. They are, for me, perfect 1950s Bug-Eyed Monsters from their repulsive physical appearance to the dining on humans for a treat.

> And then there are the surprise entries.  Heinlein often recycled
> certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his
> alien life forms.  Willis and the Star Beast come to mind, for
> instance.  Or a surprise in the other direction, there are the Jocks.
> Besides making an interesting story, what's Heinlein trying to say
> here?

I don't understand what you mean by "surprise entries." What's the surprise?
That Willis and Lummie both appear at times to be childish and demanding rather than mature and cooperative?
Are you surprised that in a juvenile story RAH included a juvenile alien?
Haven't you ever watched Saturday morning television with your kids? Power Rangers in its various iterations has been running or at least 20 years.

From: Tim Morgan <>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:34:01 -0700
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein's Aliens

I have to apologize for missing last Thursday's appointed time for the readers group meeting. Unfortunately, I had a bad flu and was stuck in bed at the time. I'm back on my feet now, and I'd like to reschedule the meeting for this coming Thursday, November 1st, 6PM Eastern 9PM Pacific time. I'll try to stay healthy until then!


Go To Posts

Here begins the Discussion

You have just entered room "heinleinreadersgroup."

Bookman99R has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome

Bookman99R: hi!

Bookman99R: what's on the table this time?

DavidWrightSr: Tim was sick with the flue last week and my computer was offline for two days. Supposed to be Aliens in Heinlein.

Bookman99R: bummer

DavidWrightSr: I'll see if there are others who want in.

Bookman99R: right

Bookman99R: I'll check with NW

toxdoc1947 has entered the room.

Bookman99R: what's up, Doc?

toxdoc1947: wow, am I early or late?

Krin135 has entered the room.

Bookman99R: late, but I just got here myself

Krin135: evening all

DavidWrightSr: Just coming up. Haven't seen Tim yet

Bookman99R: hi, Chuck - long time, no see

Krin135: David, Rusty

Krin135:'s been an interesting year or two

rmlwj1 has entered the room.

Bookman99R: how goes the marriage?

rmlwj1: good evening

Krin135: this one is much better than the last one

Bookman99R: hello, RM

Bookman99R: lol

Krin135: hi RM, Tox

Bookman99R: good for you, then

rmlwj1: Thank you, David.

Krin135: danke

Bookman99R: you still in touch with Howard?

toxdoc1947: hi krin

Krin135: Sorry I missed the 100th party in KC

Krin135: My job had just changed from Butler to Salem

Bookman99R: yeah, I missed most of it, myself - wife was ill, mostly

Krin135: intermittantly

Krin135: sorry to hear that

rmlwj1: How was that? I had to work, couldn't get time off.

Bookman99R: but I did host the picnic I'd been threatening to hold

Krin135: good

Bookman99R: I got a link to some pix, if anyone's interested

Bookman99R: picnic pix, that is

rmlwj1: sure.

DavidWrightSr: We're supposed to start at 9:00 P.M. EST, but I haven't seen our fearless leader yet. I will be AFK for a few minutes, so just be social for a bit.

Krin135: lol...wilco

rmlwj1: k

Krin135: how's the kids, Rusty?

Bookman99R: hugh57(dot)com

Bookman99R: slash cons

Bookman99R: it won't let me post the link, for some reason

Bookman99R: slashrustys_bbq

Bookman99R: kids are good - 14 & 8, now

Bookman99R: or go to hugh57dotcom - the link is easy to find

Krin135: boys are 13, 16, and 20,...girls are 29, 31 and 34

Krin135: with grands from 6 mos to 14 years

Bookman99R: you're almost free!

Bookman99R: lol

pakgwei has entered the room.

Krin135: yeah

Krin135: it will be interesting

Bookman99R: Oz, JanE!, & the Silvers made it, along with a few whose names escape me

Bookman99R: and a few lurkers & tag-alongs

morganuci has entered the room.

Bookman99R: hi, pak & morg

pakgwei: hello

morganuci: Hi all!

Krin135: hi Pak, Morg

Bookman99R: tonight's topic will be "Heinlein's Aliens", or something like that

Krin135: for the record, COL Paul Tibbetts died today

rmlwj1: ok

Krin135: Absent Comrades!

rmlwj1: dang.

pakgwei: read that earlier

rmlwj1: Absent comrades!

Bookman99R: absent comrades, indeed

toxdoc1947: Absent comrades!

rmlwj1: I'd suspected sometihng like that had occurred when I caught the tail end of "Enola Gay" on NPR.

Krin135: yeah...and the funny part is to look at the confusion between which bird dropped which bomb

Bookman99R: missed that

Krin135: I'm double checking, but IIRC Bock's Car was deadlined and the crew was switched to another plane

Krin135: and my late Grandmother may have helped build those planes...something that I just realized

Bookman99R: heh

rmlwj1: funny, kinda.

morganuci: What work did your grandmother do during the war?

rmlwj1: Pop was drafted, told the VP of Transport at the Southern he'd orders to report.

Bookman99R: no telling what my G'parents worked on, back then - but they did work in Detroit during WWII

Krin135: it was the EG..

rmlwj1: VP told him to come back later that afternoon.

Krin135: the plane was named the EG at the last minute

Krin135: Moms worked at the Martin plant in what is now Offut AFB

Krin135: started out on B-26 Marauders...later worked on the 29s

rmlwj1: Orders from draft board, endorsed in writing by Gen. Grove stating that Mr. Jester was assigned to present duties at SouRwy for "duration of the war or five years, whichever is greater."

rmlwj1: Pop was one of less than half a dozen folks at SouRwy who knew exactly what was moving into Oak Ridge by rail.

Bookman99R: did you find the pictures, Chuck?


Krin135: haven't gotten to that one yet, Rusty

Bookman99R: ok

Bookman99R: still scratching my head as to why that link was "forbidden"

Krin135: working on it now

Krin135: nice gig...and clean link

Bookman99R: ok

Bookman99R: thanks

Krin135: have you gotten any fall color up there?

Krin135: the ozarks are rather dull this year

Bookman99R: yeah, some

Bookman99R: likewise here, for the most part

morganuci: We have lots here, but this is my first fall here, so I don't know how it compares to previous years (Seattle area)

Bookman99R: back in a bit

Krin135: k

rmlwj1: Late starting here (Great Valley in VA)

Krin135: waiting is

morganuci: Shall we start?

DavidWrightSr: Fire When Ready!

rmlwj1: sure

Krin135: air mattress

morganuci: Does anyone have any particular book or alien they'd like to talk about first?

DavidWrightSr: One of my favorites is Sir Isaac from Between Planets.

DavidWrightSr: and the rest of his clan.

rmlwj1: I agree, David.

Krin135: I'm feeling a bit library has been packed for much of the last year

DavidWrightSr: Of course, he was one of the first that I ever encountered back in those ancient days.

rmlwj1: I can't recall if I read Between Planets or Have Spacesuit first.

Krin135: beyond Martians, of which there were three types (Red Planet, Between Planets, and SIASL)

DavidWrightSr: I think that BP was my first, but Starman Jones was a close contender. It had some interesting aliens.

morganuci: Do you see the Red Planet Martians as different from those in Stranger?

rmlwj1: yes, it did, David.

Krin135: I'm not memory of the two books was that the Earth Human time line was different in both of them

toxdoc1947: much more hands-off

Krin135: getting a bit more color here so that I can figure out who's writting what

Krin135: in any case, were the Venusians the same in BP and Space Cadet?

morganuci: Red Planet was written in 1949, which was about the same time when RAH started working on Stranger. He clearly recycled at least some of the "features" of the Martians from one to the other.

Krin135: right...the 'bounders'...had forgotten that they did resemble the nymphs

pakgwei: have to run

pakgwei has left the room.

morganuci: I'm thinking of the adults, mainly. Don't they sit around thinking a lot? Admittedly, they take action by the end of Red Planet, while in Stranger

morganuci: they'd probably take 500 years to make a decision :-)

DavidWrightSr: In any case, were the Venusians the same in BP and Space Cadet?: No The aliens in Space Cadet and those in Logic of Empire were very similar, though. Also there were other Martians in Double Star different from the RP SIASL and BP

morganuci: What are the Martians in BP like? I've forgotten...

DavidWrightSr: Thin with pseudo-wings is all I remember. The ones in DS were like tree trunks.

rmlwj1: I can recall the ones in DS, but not BP.

morganuci: I think they're pretty minor in BP. I guess that brings up something I asked in the meeting announcement:

morganuci: Sometimes, the aliens are just background, sometimes they're a big part of the story. Often the most central to the story are those that are

morganuci: the "surprise" sentient beings, like the Star Beast. I don't mean "surprise" in that an adult reader can't predict where the story is going, but that

morganuci: the characters in the book are surprised :-).

Krin135: agreed

Bookman99R: can't quibble

rmlwj1: agree, Morganuci.

Krin135: and how RAH managed to get "Raising 'John Thomas's'" past the censors

Krin135: was quite remarkable

Bookman99R: Simon, I can't read your text, as it stands - dark on a dark background, is what I'm seeing

morganuci: Does everyone know the reference? Agree about the text---I can read it only by highlighting it.

DavidWrightSr: For a Freudian, Dogleash was quite inept, 8-)

Bookman99R: heh, yep

Bookman99R: I'm in the "it was deliberate" camp, on that point

Krin135: I'm not getting a dark backround on any of the text I'm receiving

rmlwj1: nor am I.

Bookman99R: might have something to do with different versions, i suppose

morganuci: I think so.

Bookman99R: nor am I.

Krin135: could be

rmlwj1: I'm on Trillian, FWIW.

Bookman99R: that might be part of it

Bookman99R: part of it

Bookman99R: lol

Bookman99R: I got infected!

morganuci: Yeah, what happened?

Bookman99R: as for how it got past the censors, I suspect that they aren't as widely-read as they thought themselves to be

Bookman99R: I cut & pasted some of Simon's text, and it re-set my background

Krin135: or at least weren't particular Anglophiles

rmlwj1: I agree, Rusty.

Bookman99R: oh, Motherthing sends her greetings

Krin135: ah...Salutations and Felicitations returned to Herself

Bookman99R: she's been busting out some Physics homework, so she's too tired to come out & play

rmlwj1: :-)

Krin135: her own homework or fot the teen?

Bookman99R: her's

Krin135: ah...with or without calc?

Krin135: calculus, not calculator

Bookman99R: she's had 2 terms of calc, so far

Krin135: ok..

Krin135: tease her about sheets of butcher paper and a slipstick then

Bookman99R: lol

Bookman99R: ok

rmlwj1: snicker

morganuci: OK, we've all said we liked this or that alien character. What makes you "like" an alien---what makes them interesting to us?

Krin135: for me, the way that RAH used them to hold up a mjrror

Krin135: mirror

Bookman99R: that's easy - similarities & differences

Bookman99R: just as with human interactions

Krin135: to show us that we are more alike

rmlwj1: Good point, Krin.

Krin135: than we want to acknowlege

Bookman99R: hmmm

morganuci: You don't think so?

rmlwj1: sure

Bookman99R: are the Jockairan "gods" alone among Heinlein's not-human-at-all aliens

Bookman99R: ?

rmlwj1: delete that "sure" wrong window. Sorry.

Krin135: who was more alien? Homo superior of Friday

morganuci: Well, what about the Martians in Stranger? They're pretty different, and godlike, compared to humans.

Krin135: or VMS?

Krin135: godlike, yes

Bookman99R: the Martians of SiaSL weren't 'on screen' much

Krin135: but like the Olympians, having their share of blind spots

Bookman99R: but it's a thought

morganuci: In Star Trek, there's some kind of alien on every planet. That's sort of what makes the episode "happen"---they land, interact, move on.

morganuci: But in Time Enough For Love, for instance, the universe seems to consist of many earthlike planets, all populated by humans, with the only alien-occupied planets being the ones that were in Methuselah's Children.

morganuci: I think Heinlein wrote TEfL this way because he wanted to focus on human emotions, human interactions, and not be distracted. In contrast, in Stranger, clearly the purpose is to have a foil against which to measure humanity.

Krin135: true

morganuci: And even there, he used a human, rather than a human-like alien. I guess that was partly necessary since you needed to have the "alien" experience sex.

rmlwj1: makes sense, Morganuci.

morganuci: TEFL doesn't just pretend that the Jock gods weren't around. I think Laz says something about going back there? Or does go back?

Krin135: one point that is often underrated is the breeding capacity of Genus Homo

Bookman99R: Long went back & killed them

Bookman99R: no reason for as to why was ever really given, IIRC

Krin135: given half a chance and a decent star drive

morganuci: He didn't like that they subjegated (sp?) the Jocks and would have done the same to the humans, and the effect they had on Slayton Ford.

Krin135: you've got my interest piqued

Krin135: I'm going to have to get a new copy of TEfL now

morganuci: I see it as a bit of Heinlein's fear of communism, or dictatorships. Laz's reaction is like that to the slugs in The Puppetmasters, which was probably an allegory about communism.

Bookman99R: given that the galaxy is big, it takes a fairly powerful motivation to go back & commit genocide

Krin135: dagnab it, David

Krin135: someone needs to convince the Board and the Estate Trustees to cut a deal with Baen

morganuci: Yeah, I always thought it was a bit off-hand. Has anyone read the Ender series by Orson Scott Card?

Krin135: to get the rest of the books on Webwrigths

Krin135: most of it, Morgan

Bookman99R: yeah, although the later books get preachier than RAH, IMO

morganuci: Agreed. I was thinking of the twist that Ender is at first a hero for killing all the buggers, then later vilified for having committed genocide.

Krin135: and while we are seeing some benefits from kids playing computer games

Krin135: there still needs to be Cap Troopers and 'boots on the ground'

Krin135: concur, Morgan

Bookman99R: true

rmlwj1: Might e-mail Toni Weisskopf.

Krin135: which was part of the parable of the Skinnies in SST

rmlwj1: She's a bit much on her plate now, her husband died a few days ago, so a response may take a bit.

Krin135: because we were able to put boots on the ground of the Skinny worlds

Krin135: oh, damn...what happened?

Bookman99R: well, the Skinnies also served to show that the ST gov't also employed diplomacy

Krin135: yes, Rusty

Bookman99R: or more to the point, that said diplomacy was yoked to military action

Krin135: and that there should always be a stick to go with the carrot

rmlwj1: Hank went into cardiac failure, had a CABG, post op infections and, IMO, renal failure.

Krin135: like the Great White Fleet

Bookman99R: sorry to hear that - hope she's OK

Krin135: crap...I've seen that before...was he a diabetic as well?

rmlwj1: Not to my knowledge.

Krin135: k...that's the most common situation to combine heart failure with kidney loss

rmlwj1: He looked a tad pale at Liberty in July, but he was fair complected, so I didn't pay as much attention to it as I probably should have.

Bookman99R: and you're right about "carrot & stick", Chuck

Bookman99R: not to mention the fact that not all cultures respond well to "we come in peace"

Krin135: in any case, as an XGI, I always understood that part of my job was to make sure that we could cash the checks that the dipple corps and pols were continuing to write

Bookman99R: indeed

Bookman99R: alas that _they_ don't keep that in mind, all too often

Krin135: IIRC, in most non cosmopolitian cultures, the word for 'stranger' is usually the opposite of 'friend'...

Bookman99R: yep

Krin135: taken to the extreme, the tribal/clan cultures from the Balkans to the 'Stans...

Bookman99R: even the Soviet culture didn't do very well with the concept of "equals", as I understand it

Krin135: 'me against my brother'

Krin135: my brother and I against our cousin

Bookman99R: politically & diplomatically, at any rate

Krin135: the three of us against the world

Krin135: interestingly enough, both in the Islamic and Russian cultures

Krin135: consider *any* land once occupied by the culture

Bookman99R: cross-pollination, perhaps?

Krin135: forever a part of that culture

Bookman99R: yeah, there's that

rmlwj1: heh. Good luck on getting East Germany back.

Bookman99R: and "what's mine, is _mine_. What's yours is negotiable"

Krin135: was thinking more about a reserected Caliphate trying to retake Seville

Krin135: or a resurgent Moscow trying for Alaska


morganuci: Were the centar-like creatures in Starman Jones "aliens" or just animals?

rmlwj1: Somehow I don't think Putin's crowd is quite that stupid.

Bookman99R: well, they were able to communicate & cooperate

Krin135: and the vision of all of the Balkanoid cults and cultures (except maybe the Albanians and Bosnians)

Krin135: rising against the Turks...

Bookman99R: effectivly co-ordinated the equivalent of combined-arms military action

Bookman99R: that, Chuck, would likely get ugly fast

Krin135: mmm...Morgan, porpoise pods and to a lesser extent wolf packs do much the same

morganuci: Indeed. I think in the end, what we learn about them isn't enough to know for sure. I was just soliciting opinions

Bookman99R: yes, but those are all same-species actions

Krin135: point taken, Rusty

Bookman99R: the centaurs operated across species boundaries

Krin135: in any case, I must bow out

Krin135: been a long day

rmlwj1: night, sleep well.

Krin135: and I must be up again in the am

morganuci: Goodnight!

Bookman99R: g'night

Krin135: Vaya Con, all

Krin135 has left the room.

morganuci: But were the centaurs just using stuff in the environment? A chimp can do that, and birds have been seen to fashion and use simple tools.

morganuci: Are the centaurs meant to be "in betweens" like a chimp?

Bookman99R: but as for the 'taurs, the question revolves back to "what constitutes 'human'"?

morganuci: Indeed! I was hoping someone would bring that up. Ideas/opinions?

Bookman99R: how many animals domesticate other animals?

Bookman99R: or 'enslave', if you like the term better

rmlwj1: I think RAH wrote that with the 'taurs ans the area dominant race being "human equivalent" for that planet.

Bookman99R: oh, and thanks for fixing the text, Simon

Bookman99R: yeah, but it's another example of truly 'alien' aliens

rmlwj1: yeah, it is.

morganuci: Yeah, my personal guess is that they are at least somewhat intelligent. Or yes, they might be just so different in thinking patterns that we can't relate to them much.

Bookman99R: off-hand, i favor the latter

morganuci: OK, here's one that's so far out in left field, you may want to declare it a foul ball: Jonathan Hoag. What about the super aliens in there?

Bookman99R: and culturally homogenous enough that they didn't develop a technical culture

rmlwj1: Intelligent, yes, but I agree on the different thinking pattern.

morganuci: Humans didn't have much of a technical culture for millenia.

Bookman99R: I dunno if Hoag fits - more of "humans of a different design", in that case

Bookman99R: save for Hoag, who was a god/angel type

Bookman99R: but back at you: the Angels in Job - aliens?

morganuci: whoa, hadn't thought of that!

Bookman99R: they are certainly not humans, and they only have some motivations in common with us

Bookman99R: presuming that in the context of this chat, aliens are "non-human, intelligent beings", rather than exotic animals

morganuci: I was myself interested in the sentient aliens because they provide a contrast to humans, and often in SF they are a central pillar of the story, while that isn't usually true in Heinlein.

Bookman99R: we really don't know much about the angels - they are rather disdainful of humans, are subject to likes & dislikes, son't seem to have gender, are jealous of status, and some like to eat

morganuci: We aren't necessarily limited to the sentient ones. And yes, we've been (mis) using "alien" to mean that.

Bookman99R: yeah, but there's not much to discuss about alien cattle

morganuci: There's always the stubor :-)

Bookman99R: the critter that LL mis-reported, in a blurb in TEFL might be interesting, but there's little to go on

Bookman99R: well, sure - that was the point!

morganuci: What's that?

Bookman99R: in the 'notebooks' section, some critter that broadcasts euphoria when petted

Bookman99R: Long closes the paragraph by saying thaat they aren't where he said they were

rmlwj1: cats do that, at times.

morganuci: Flat cats?

Bookman99R: heh

DavidWrightSr: Knaffn?

rmlwj1: heh

Bookman99R: something like that

morganuci: brb

Bookman99R: ok

Bookman99R: me 2

Bookman99R: back

morganuci: me too

Bookman99R: have the water dragons in TFTS been mentioned?

morganuci: not yet---go ahead

rmlwj1: Don't think so.

Bookman99R: they seemed to possess some level of inteligence, at least on the level of the 'taurs

Bookman99R: (although i spell in english better then they do!)

starfall2 has entered the room.

Bookman99R: I found fresh blood!

Bookman99R: lol

starfall2: hi

Bookman99R: welcome, Star

morganuci: welcome

rmlwj1: evening

toxdoc1947: hey star

Bookman99R: last alien brought up was the water-dragons from "Time for the Stars", but there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go with them

starfall2: well, i've got no input on them. i don't think i've gotten to that one yet

Bookman99R: lucky you

Bookman99R: what's your favorite alien?

Bookman99R: come to that, have we ticked off on RAH's 'bad guy aliens'?

morganuci: not yet. That was another contrast I wanted to get to.

Bookman99R: the wormfaces, the beasts, the centaurs, the 'dragons'

toxdoc1947: black-hats

Bookman99R: but he didn't seem to much go in for black-hat aliens, much

morganuci: "humans are the most dangerous creature"

Bookman99R: yeah, there's that

Bookman99R: although it would be hard to say who'd win, human vs wormface

toxdoc1947: weren't the villians black-hats in TNOTB?

Bookman99R: yeah, I termed them "beasts", but same thing

Bookman99R: absent the Mother Thing's intervention WRT wormfaces, anyway

morganuci: What I meant was, that was his usual theme, but sometimes he varied from it by having a wormface type around. yeah, they were pretty bad compared to the technology of the humans

morganuci: I think if they'd gone to war, the humans would have lost the first battles, but dug in, invented new stuff, and won in the end.

Bookman99R: but pseudo-peer aliens that are intratably enemies of H. Sap. are thin on the ground

Bookman99R: in a RAH book, you bet

Bookman99R: never hurts to have the Author as an ally

Bookman99R: ;-)

Bookman99R: people in the USA don't really respect a good Tragedy any more, though

morganuci: How would you contrast Heinlein's use of aliens with those of other SF writers of his time, and/or of current times?

Bookman99R: and i don't just mean Poddy, either

Bookman99R: RAH attempted, for the most part successfully, to have aliens that had alien cultures & mindsets

Bookman99R: previous art tended to either use 'em as BEMs, or stand-ins for other human groups

Bookman99R: allegory

Bookman99R: at least, that's my take on it - I didn't grow up reading golden-age stuff, only got dribs & drabs

Bookman99R: heh - possibly the best exaple was the strato-people in "Goldfish Bowl"

Bookman99R: utterly alien, and yet, not 'gods', either

morganuci: Yeah, I like them!

Bookman99R: well, _you_are welcome to inhabit one of their bowls... ;-)

Bookman99R: but recall that Campbell didn't want to publish that one

morganuci: why not?

Bookman99R: I'd say that was telling, WRT the take on aliens of the time

Bookman99R: it's discussed in "Grumbles", but

Bookman99R: the short of it was that JWC thought the story was too "heavy", as opposed to the light, escapist stuff that he considered SF to be at the time

morganuci: I see. I'd forgotten about that.

Bookman99R: may I ask you age, Morgan?

morganuci: 48

Bookman99R: ok, a bit older than I am (41)

morganuci: But not so old that I grew up reading in the golden age ;-). I was reading RAH in the 70s initially.

Bookman99R: do you see the other aliens of the times being much different from as I described them?

Bookman99R: yeah, me too

morganuci: No, I agree with you.

Bookman99R: RAH really pushed that envelope, IMO

Bookman99R: and even today, a lot of authors write aliens in the mode of - call 'em Star Trek Aliens

rmlwj1: yeah, that seems to be the current mode.

Bookman99R: STAs being humans in funky clothes, with a paint job & a few prosthetics

morganuci: Yeah. Of course, in the 60s that's all the could afford to do!

Bookman99R: I'm thinking ST:TOS for that descriptive, BTW

Bookman99R: yeah, but it wasn't just a matter of cost - the bulk of Roddenberry's aliens were simple allegory, mostly the rest were Bug-Eyed Monsters

morganuci: Agreed!

Bookman99R: even Card's aliens, in the Ender books, were eventually watered down into pseudo-humans

morganuci: Yes. Unfortunately, if the aliens are too alien, you can't relate to them, and they're usually going to appear just as a threat that we should blow up.

Bookman99R: hmmm... Niven's Kzin usually made the cut, when it came to avoiding allegory

morganuci: Tell us about them.

Bookman99R: the Sentient cats?

Bookman99R: you know them, right?

Bookman99R: Intelligent, aggressive & warlike, with social charachteristic that could be taken as descended from cat-type animals

Bookman99R: gad, this is starting to feel like an interview! lol

morganuci: No, I haven't read about them. What book(s) are they in?

Bookman99R: well, the Man-Kzin wars, to start with

Bookman99R: don't recall any other titles, it's been a long time

morganuci: OK, thanks. Are there other aspects of the aliens topic that we haven't covered? I'm running out of leading questions.

Bookman99R: lol

morganuci: Hey, I'm serious!

Bookman99R: well, RAH did kinda dabble in "alien by choice", in the homo superiors in Friday

Bookman99R: parallels include Pournelle's "Saurons", and Stirling's "Draka"

morganuci: There's some aspect of that in the real world. Some groups want to separate themselves from society for political reasons mainly.

Bookman99R: althought they were rather better-developed

Bookman99R: call it socio-political, i think

Bookman99R: in all 3 cases mentioned, the basis seems to be a feeling of/belief in their own superiority

morganuci: That's pretty similar, then.

Bookman99R: and common to such groups, I think, is that they have a need to prove it, in one form or fashion

morganuci: It's also a feeling that plays well to the typical SF readership.

Bookman99R: hmmm...

Bookman99R: perhpas

morganuci: Aren't we superior to most humans :-)?

Bookman99R: lol

morganuci: And the typical nerdy SF reader also feels alienated (pun intended) from society etc.

Bookman99R: well, when i look around the average 'con, I tend to think "what an amazing array of talent that is mostly going to waste!"

morganuci: True!

Bookman99R: perhaps, but then again, there's the "As on a Darkling Plain" factor

Bookman99R: not many people really feel all that accepted & confident

Bookman99R: but mundanes are better at putting on the facade than fen

Bookman99R: or that last could just be the sour grapes of an old SF nerd... ;-)

morganuci: lol

rmlwj1: lol

morganuci: So are there other Heinlein aliens people want to talk about, or aspects of them, etc.?

Bookman99R: I will note that there are human aliens-by-choice that don't have much to prove, beyond proving how weird they are/can be

Bookman99R: goths, punks, & the like

Bookman99R: humm

morganuci: I agree with that.

Bookman99R: not sure there's a parallel to that in RAH's works

Bookman99R: the super-intelligent cannbles mentioned in TEFL?

Bookman99R: cannibals

Bookman99R: odd that the various martians got so little table-time, isn't it?

morganuci: Maybe so. Or just the homo superiors that we started this with.

Bookman99R: especially the DS Martians - one of his better-fleshed cultures

rmlwj1: yes it was.

Bookman99R: granted that RAH didn't dabble much, that way - he wrote books about humans, for humans, mostly

morganuci: That's a good point. RAH tends to show alien HUMAN cultures rather than alien cultures. Maybe this comes from his round the world tour?

Bookman99R: somewhat, i think

Bookman99R: certainly the first trip changed his perspective on such things

Bookman99R: especially the stop at that remote island

morganuci: Yeah, I'm thinking he was trying to show that humans have a very wide range

Bookman99R: trying to talk to the locals, and finding that there really wasn't much basis for communication - he'd met some "aliens"

Bookman99R: yep

Bookman99R: but on the plus side, he didn't really devolve into allegory, much

Bookman99R: satire & comedy, certainly

Bookman99R: examination of the human condition, certainly - an outside perspective really helps with that

Bookman99R: Question:

Bookman99R: I've noticed that when I attend chats, i tend to be one of the talkers. Am I adding antything, or am I drowning out some better voices?

Bookman99R: these chats, that is

rmlwj1: I don't think so.

starfall2: well, you're not drowning me out.

morganuci: I'm getting a lot out of it myself. But I'd love to hear from the others also.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I would normally say a lot more, but it's been a few hard days and I am pretty sapped out.

Bookman99R: I grok that, David

Bookman99R: BTDT

starfall2: i'd normally at least say a little, but i haven't had much time for reading, and it's been a rough few days for me, as well

Bookman99R: I'm just checking that I'm not hogging the mike, so to speak

Bookman99R: I been known to go on, a bit :-)

morganuci: It's on topic, so no one can complain

Bookman99R: lol

Bookman99R: well, to quote one of Stirling's books "we're here to talk, so let's talk"...

Bookman99R: lol

rmlwj1: yep, and I seem to be of similar thoughts, so you've expressed mine well also.

Bookman99R: quite a compliment, sir

Bookman99R: thank you

Bookman99R: but unless someone can push another button, or drop in another nickle, I'm fresh out of new ideas

Bookman99R: flat cats, cabbages, & water-seekers don't really stretch the topic

Bookman99R: RAH did mention on human culture that would stand in for an alien one, though

Bookman99R: in TR, the one where successful lying, scheming & murder were considered admirable traits

toxdoc1947: thoughts about "the circle" in TCWWTW? Some of them were at least a little alien iirc

Bookman99R: anyone recall the name of the people?

morganuci: I'm stumped

Bookman99R: well, there was the ERB Martian there

Bookman99R: Sambo?

toxdoc1947: yep, and the grey lensman

toxdoc1947: iirc

DavidWrightSr: The Circle of Ouroboros?

Bookman99R: he would do, especially for 'alien by choice'

Bookman99R: here's something:

Bookman99R: is there an important difference between sufficiently alien humans, versus non-human aliens?

Bookman99R: and if so, how/what?

Bookman99R: that _is_ a theme explored by RAH

morganuci: I suppose not.

rmlwj1: thought processes, I'd think.

Bookman99R: case in point, the Shasta story

starfall2: i'd say perhaps the idea that the alien humans would be seen as having chosen to be different (regardless of whether or not they consciously made that decision), while the non-human aliens are automatically non-human

rmlwj1: possibly value systems, which are integral to thought processes.

Bookman99R: good point, Star

morganuci: I think in a thousand years, you'd get quite a lot of divergence in societies. Eventually, evolutionary divergence would also happen.

Bookman99R: crainly value systems, in either case

Bookman99R: if values/motivations are sufficiently alien, whether in numan or non-human, then the culture is effectivly alien

morganuci: I think so

Bookman99R: body shape is of less importance

Bookman99R: did RAH ever touch an complementary aliens, the way that Alan Dean Foster did with the Thranx?

morganuci: 'splain

Bookman99R: ADF wrote the Thranks (intelligent insectoids) as being the complement of humanity

Bookman99R: the two races shored up each other's weaknesses, complememnted each other's strenghts

morganuci: I can't immediately think of any RAH story where the humans worked with another race. And I think that's a big contrast to many other writers.

rmlwj1: folks, I've got to head to bed, thank you all for a pleasant evenning.

Bookman99R: g'night, Simon

morganuci: Thanks for joining us! Goodnight.

Bookman99R: thanks for dropping by

rmlwj1: It's been quite a while, I enjoyed myself.

Bookman99R: for those interested in the Thranx, "Nor Crystal Tears" is a good place to start

starfall2: goodnight

Bookman99R: hmmm...

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

Bookman99R: back to DS, the pilot's relationship with the Martians, might be an indicator

Bookman99R: heya, Nuke!

Bookman99R: brb

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening

starfall2: hi!

morganuci: Hey!

NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry for the late arrival.

morganuci: I know

Bookman's not here right now, but my thought is that the Martian and Venerian aliens mostly live apart from the humans, and they mostly ignore each other, rather than work together.

Bookman99R: back

starfall2: wb

NuclearWasteUSN: It seemed to me that the venerians were a "young" race and the Martians were elders barely noticing the humans in the middle

Bookman99R: good to see you here, bud - these nice folks been letting me run my mouth for _far_ too long ;-)

NuclearWasteUSN: I could be conflating books though

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Is that a nice way of saying I am running mine?

morganuci: No! Go right ahead

Bookman99R: nope

Bookman99R: saying that I could use someone to work against

Bookman99R: hard to have a discussion where everyone agrees, no?

NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, which side of this would you like to take?

NuclearWasteUSN: I came in in the middle

Bookman99R: heh

Bookman99R: not really on a side

Bookman99R: you know the topic, right?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes

Bookman99R: pick an alien, any alien. Potificate

morganuci: pretty much!

NuclearWasteUSN: Although I did not post on it in AFH as I was shocked that people seemed to think that Heinlein wrote benevolent aliens

Bookman99R: I'm about tapped out on thigs to say, but you & I don't see things the same way

Bookman99R: benevolent? Well, not exactly

morganuci: Well, excluding the mean ones :-)

toxdoc1947: lol

toxdoc1947: am getting punchy - beddie bye time for me

Bookman99R: alines with parallel, but not identical veiws/goals is more like it

Bookman99R: g'night, Doc

NuclearWasteUSN: The Heinlein Martians of the VMS universe were not.

Bookman99R: nope - they had an agenda all their own

morganuci: I wouldn't say they're benevolent. I'd say they're self-serving, just like the humans.

toxdoc1947 has left the room.

morganuci: Goodnight, Doc!

Bookman99R: but it was mostly internalized, so didn't much affect humanity

starfall2: i should probably go as well. puppy needs a walk, and i've got some more papers to grade for tomorrow

starfall2: goodnight!

Bookman99R: ok

morganuci: Goodnight!

NuclearWasteUSN: Perhaps, if you mean that being racially aware and working for the greatest good of the race is "self serving"

Bookman99R: g'night

starfall2 has left the room.

morganuci: I mean, their interest isn't the benefit of the humans.

NuclearWasteUSN: Certainly they were the most alien race written at that point

morganuci: But it may be that their interests happen to coincide with that.

Bookman99R: the VMS marians? hardly

Bookman99R: interests barely touched, to my way of thinking

morganuci: No, I meant the supposed benevolent aliens in RAH.

NuclearWasteUSN: I don't know. The beauty of the destruction of the 5th planet always shook me.

Bookman99R: quite an example of different values & outlook

morganuci: I think they see beauty in whatever they grok is the right thing to do. Convenient, no?

Bookman99R: to those martinas, the inevitable correct result would always be "beautiful", not so?

NuclearWasteUSN: Very convenient, and coldly logical

Bookman99R: I suppose to that set, even the destruction of their own race would be beautiful, if they grokked it as necessary

NuclearWasteUSN: Not in anger, nor with resignation. They enjoyed doing what they did.

Bookman99R: heh "brightly, brightly, and with beauty"

NuclearWasteUSN: Didn't you get that as the inevitable end to allowing Mike to continue to grok?

morganuci: Absolutely. Do they ever have to turn one of themselves 90 degrees from everything?

NuclearWasteUSN: That just sends them to the beginning.

morganuci: Whoa, you mean that they have planted the seeds of their own destruction?

Bookman99R: prolly not - not wasting the meat is fairly core to their beliefs

NuclearWasteUSN: Didn't you get that from when Mike talked to Jill not long after he was downloaded?

morganuci: True, but if one of them were so "evil" (in our terms) to need that, would they want to grok him?

NuclearWasteUSN: ISTM that they would

Bookman99R: ah, but their destruction, or merely being swept onto an existential "reservation", as it were?

morganuci: Can you destroy the old ones?

NuclearWasteUSN: Their promotion en mass to Old Ones

NuclearWasteUSN: I am only an egg Marganuci

NuclearWasteUSN: -a+o

morganuci: So it's another the-humans-come-from-behind-to-win-out-in-the-end Heinlein story

Bookman99R: only in its potential

NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, not certain it is so simple as that

Bookman99R: likewise with the slugs in TPM

NuclearWasteUSN: The Old Ones can still cause the core of the earth to disapear

morganuci: It was never clear to me how the slugs built spaceships, or if they'd have any other weapons.

Bookman99R: they enslaved other intelligent beings, of course

Bookman99R: maybe in a situation like that in "Alien"

morganuci: I assumed the same thing. So we wouldn't know what they might be capable of.

morganuci: And did they transmit back to Titan the experiences of those on earth? If so, even if they didn't before, they'd know our technologies.

morganuci: (then)

Bookman99R: well, in general form, sure

Bookman99R: but the devil's in the details

morganuci: Yeah, again there's not enough detail in the book to know for sure, so we're left to speculate.

NuclearWasteUSN: Once it is time to railroad...

Bookman99R: thinking on that one, how important is the Titan base, for that?

morganuci: Titan always seemed an unlikely home planet to me. Maybe it was a base for attack, like Pluto for the wormfaces?

Bookman99R: that would be my thought

Bookman99R: probably in the same mode as "Footfall" used

Bookman99R: a one-way trip, conquer or die

morganuci: So they could be like a virus, spread all over the galaxy, thus very hard to wipe out.

NuclearWasteUSN: Did Sam say something about extrasolar origins?

Bookman99R: no follow-on wave neede or planned for

NuclearWasteUSN: When they tortured the slug on him for info?

Bookman99R: virus might be the best way to put it

morganuci: I don't remember anything but Titan?

Bookman99R: ISTR that extrasolar was listed as a possibility, but not definitively

NuclearWasteUSN: I am not certain on it, just a tickle of a memory

morganuci: It's a bit Borg-like also, picking up different races' technologies along with the races themselves.

Bookman99R: but then, the "restored" version might nave more clues

NuclearWasteUSN: I will see which one is currently on the shelf upstair5s.

morganuci: True, it's quite a bit longer.

NuclearWasteUSN: Assuming the boiy has not stolen them all.

Bookman99R: I haven't read the new/old version, really need to track one down

NuclearWasteUSN: Anyone want a redheaded book theif, cheap?

Bookman99R: lol

morganuci: Many people like it a lot better than the originally-published version.

Bookman99R: give him time - my elser one has learned to forage for herself

Bookman99R: I know I liked the restored SISL better

morganuci: Me too. And Red Planet?

NuclearWasteUSN: I like both versions of both.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have not got the new Red Planet

Bookman99R: I read the excerpts of RP in Grumbles

Bookman99R: was there more than that?

NuclearWasteUSN: Of course she has, Rusty, she probably read everything you had, and stole all the good ones already. Self defense and a healthy appetite drove her to larger feeding grounds

morganuci: Jane Davitt wrote an article in The Heinlein Journal comparing the two versions. I think you can find it online...let me look

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, it is there.

Bookman99R: no, she's only brushed over lightly, on our library - her tastes are developing differently


NuclearWasteUSN: One of the trolls posted it a couple of weeks back

Bookman99R: I'll have to read it later

morganuci: We're about at the end of our published time. Do we want to keep going? I have a few more minutes available, but not many.

Bookman99R: up to NW, I think

Bookman99R: comments on the Jocko 'gods', Nuke?

NuclearWasteUSN: I need sleep. I am sorry to have arrived late but Crab Legs and my wife in lipstick lured me away

Bookman99R: lol

Bookman99R: such vices!

Bookman99R: lol

morganuci: lol!!

Bookman99R: I'm about tapped out, for originating, anyway

morganuci: OK, how about suggestions for a topic for next month?

Bookman99R: are we doing again on Saturday?

NuclearWasteUSN: Always seemed to me the Joks Gods were merely a sufficiently advanced race

NuclearWasteUSN: Saturday is a HOLIDAY

Bookman99R: sure, advanced aliens

Bookman99R: hmmm

Bookman99R: RAH's impact on the SF genre, perhaps?

NuclearWasteUSN: I am in MN, and that is the first weekend of November.....

morganuci: When we re-activated these talks, it seemed that almost no one ever showed up on Saturdays, so we went to the Thursday only format.

Bookman99R: oh, yes - the sacred Opening Day

NuclearWasteUSN: Wow, thought you had become a complete heathen down there in the South

morganuci: That's a big topic---it should bring 'em in!

Bookman99R: have we done the Women of RAH recently?

NuclearWasteUSN: *leer*

morganuci: I know I have

NuclearWasteUSN: No, but I'd like to!

NuclearWasteUSN: *rimshot*

Bookman99R: yeah, and a fiery one, especially if the emphasis is on feminism

morganuci: Shall we go with that then? Both are good topics.

Bookman99R: if we tossed a line out in alt.callahans, it could be a virtual free-for-all

Bookman99R: works for me

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, I am out of here, must grab some wood and build a fire. Good night all, let me know what you decide.

Bookman99R: g''night, amigo

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

morganuci: I vote for women first, impact second.

morganuci: David: Got the log (if you're there)?

Bookman99R: maybe toss out Women as a prmary topic, and call for sub-topics?

DavidWrightSr: I've got it.

Bookman99R: if we're doing women, keep genre impacet on the back burner

morganuci: OK then, we're agreed. Thanks everyone, and goodnight all!

Bookman99R: feminism, the relality of such, etc.

Bookman99R: good night!

morganuci has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Nite All!

Bookman99R has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 12:03 A.M. 11/02/07

End of Discussion

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