Saturday 8-19-2000 9:00 EDT
The Heinlein Society
Return to Index
Here begin the AFH Postings
You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."
AGplusone: Hi, Dave
dwrighsr: Hi. Looks Like I'm going to make it. after all, but my ghost MaiKoshT is not, so I'll have to do the log from here.
dwrighsr: I just have to be careful and not lose my connection.
AGplusone: Works for me ... <g>
AGplusone: I'll keep a back up, and remind others to do the same if you remind me.
dwrighsr: Thanks. Don't mind me for now. I'm still loading software on my new computer.
AGplusone: me too ... doing other stuff ...
dwrighsr: So, I will probably be more distracted than usual
dwrighsr: Just got my buddy list copied to the new one, Had problems, but realized that I was using different versions.
AGplusone: Saturday, August 19, 2000, 1:30 PM, PDT .... starting log ... that can do you. Incidentally, send me a copy of your buddy list if you've made one. I have to reenter it one-by-one, since I lost mine when I reinstalled stupidly.
dwrighsr: will do. hang on.
AGplusone: Great God! I just received my first spam at the loop.com address ... in French, no less, from Quebec I think. Huge letter.
dwrighsr: Ok. It's on the way. I used the 'MyAim-->Save Buddy List' option.
dwrighsr: You might want to look at it with a text editor and see if you can add or change things before you load it.
AGplusone: Where did you find that? "MyAim-->Save Buddy List"?
dwrighsr: It's at the time of my AIM program window. Maybe the MAC version does it differently
MadaNameerf has entered the room.
AGplusone: [maybe they added it to version 4.0 that I downloaded but haven't installed yet]
AGplusone: Hi, Mada, welcome. May I help you?
dwrighsr: Well you can look at it with a text editor and pull out all the names.
AGplusone: I can do that!
dwrighsr: Hi Mada. Welcome
AGplusone: Ah-hah! "Freeman" spelled backwards
MadaNameerf: Hi. My name is Adam Freeman. On usenet I go by FREEMAN. Mada's my name backwards.
dwrighsr: David. all of the names on that list have been on AIM at one time or another
MadaNameerf: I was inspired by Stevie Wonder going by Evets Rednow.
dwrighsr: I add everybody I see, so it's pretty complete.
AGplusone: net names are funny sometimes. My real last name is "Silver" ... Ag is the chemical abbreviation for it, and "+1" is the valence we used to memorize in high school chemistry.
MadaNameerf: You'll have to excuse my sporadic responses. I'm at work.
AGplusone: But I'm David to most everyone, unless Dave Wright, Sr. is in the room, in which case I'm "Ag" or whatever.
AGplusone: No problem ...
MadaNameerf: I read the transcripts for the last meeting. Interesting ideas.
dwrighsr: David I am going to have to be off for a half hour or so. Just got the word from my wife, that we have to go shopping. No food in the house
dwrighsr: I'll leave it running.
AGplusone: Mind mentioning what kind of work? I'm retired but used to practice "lying, cheating, and stealing" or law as the call it. Okay, Dave, see ya when you get back. I'll back it up.
MadaNameerf: I own a comic book store. Bein here is cheaper than paying someone.
AGplusone: It was an interesting meeting ...
AGplusone: Yes, now I recall. You're up in the desert, Newhall?
MadaNameerf: Or as Ted Bronson would say: I buy things. I sell things. Make some. Lose some.
AGplusone: I'm in Santa Monica, formerly known as the "People's Republic thereof ... "
MadaNameerf: That's right. Good edge of Santa Clarita.
AGplusone: Ted's my favorite manifestation of Woody.
dwrighsr: I'm a computer programmer and network engineer with the State of Georgia.
AGplusone: Of course, RAH slipped Woody into Troopers ... ever notice Corporal "Bronski" equals "Bronson"
AGplusone: <g> ...
MadaNameerf: Hadn't noticed. That's great!
dwrighsr: I'm still here for a few minutes.
dwrighsr: I see SA on-board. She should be coming in shortly.
SAcademy has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Greetings SA.
AGplusone: Hi, SA ... meet "Freeman" spelled backwards ... he's recently delurked from AFH ...
SAcademy: Food afternoon. How is everyone?
dwrighsr: No food. I ate too much last night when I celebrated.
AGplusone: I'm fine ... enjoying a leisurely Saturday afternoon.
SAcademy: What was the celebration?
MadaNameerf: SA. Pleasure is mine.
dwrighsr: My passing the CNE certification that I told you about.
dwrighsr: Certified Novell Engineer
SAcademy: Oh, yes. Congratulations on that. But we expected that.
SageMerlin has entered the room.
SAcademy: Bill will be along soon. He lost traack of the time--buying a ticket for Tony
dwrighsr: Well, I wasn't so sure after flunking it the first time, I haven't studied so hard since college and that was a long time ago.
SageMerlin: Good afternoon.
SAcademy: Hello. I hope you got that email attachment straightenedout.
dwrighsr: Greetings and salutations!
AGplusone: G'afternoon, Alan. You know David, I think. SA's our resident skeptic, and Mada, etc. is "Adam Freeman, who recently has been posting on AFH
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Hi Bill. Welcome
BPRAL22169: Hello --David you're here in your own person!
BPRAL22169: I was beginning to think you would never have time for us again!
stephenveiss has entered the room.
siannon prime has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Yeah. Made it tonight. and my alter ego is on the blink.
siannon prime: Hi all
AGplusone: Hi, Bill ... you know Alan (Sage) and Adam Freeman from recent posts on AFH.
AGplusone: Hi, Stephen, Jani!
BPRAL22169: But your alter ego is very dependable.
stephenveiss: I'm at my dads house, so I might be in and out
SAcademy: Hello, Jani
dwrighsr: Usually., but it won't respond this evening. And I don't want to have to drive to the office to find out what's up.
MadaNameerf: Could you guys do me a favor by way of orientation and tell me what names you use on AFH?
BPRAL22169: I need to take about 5 minutes to lock something down. David can you fumfah for a bit while people arrive?
AGplusone: Hope you're enjoying the visit Stephen
siannon prime: Hi SA! Adam, I'm just replying to yr post on beautiful women <g>
stephenveiss: not too bad, not too bad
siannon prime: Mada, I'm Jani
AGplusone: Pretty much the same as we have here ... some of us post less than others ...
dwrighsr: See y'all in a while. have to do some shopping.
ddavitt has entered the room.
ddavitt: Hi all
SAcademy: Hello, Jane
stephenveiss: hi Jane
AGplusone: If someone wants to back up the log David Wright is running, I'd appreciate it if I'm booted.
siannon prime: hi Jane
SageMerlin: Hey, David, maybe you should get a dish.
SAcademy: I would but mine always comes out as hash.
RWLLaguna has entered the room.
AGplusone: Wish I did. Welcome "Strider" (RWLLaguna)
RWLLaguna: Hello all!
siannon prime: May a star shine, etc, Estel!
AGplusone: Before we start .... everyone have a chance to look at the log of Thursday's meeting, Dave Wright posted this AM?
ddavitt: Glad you made it.
siannon prime: Yep
AGplusone: (hi, Jane)
stephenveiss: I'm reading now
RWLLaguna: Not I... I shall do so now...
SAcademy: Only part of it.
AGplusone: It's something you might glance at from time to time if you can stretch your eyes from this chat room's fascinating screen
AGplusone: ... was an very useful meeting, and I expect we can go over some of the points again ... and add to them
AGplusone: ... but, Bill, why don't you describe, briefly what the meeting today is about ... and where we are?
BPRAL22169: Ok - we are basically here to discuss issues relating to setting up the Heinlein Society.
BPRAL22169: The preparatory posts and the Thursday log contain discussion of a number of points, and we'll get to them as they come up --
BPRAL22169: but I wanted to start this discussion with a more basic question which it will help us all to articulate: Why should there be such a thing as a Heinlein Society. The floor is now open for discussion.
BPRAL22169: Always a good answer!
ddavitt: That's from Space cadet.....
ddavitt: To extend it...because we care
RWLLaguna: I think it safe to say that all here have gotten something positive from RAH, and want to share the magic with others.
siannon prime: In case people forget.
BPRAL22169: And one can take the position that there has been a Heinlein society for some time -- different functions going by different names.
ddavitt: Because we want to share the enjoyment we had with future readers
AGplusone: ... and maybe a little of the 'wisdom' we may have picked up?
ddavitt: Yes...it;s more a gathering of them under one umbrella so to speak
AGplusone: [Btw: if you don't have the premeeting posts and log, it's at
BPRAL22169: There are not that many single-author societies in the world. Shaw, Wells, Twain I can think of off the top of my head. A lot of Shakespeare societies.
ddavitt: Flashman? i notice DTibbs has posted on afh again; nice to see him.
siannon prime: And on SiaSl, my favourite!
BPRAL22169: I've never quite understood the attraction of that particular series. But that's what makes the world go 'round.
AGplusone: Maybe also Doyle's Sherlock Holmes ... yes, David has volunteered to offer his topic as a discussion meeting as well)
AGplusone: But, back to the meeting ... sorry.
ddavitt: It depends on your definition; the big three childrens authors in the collectible world, Brent Dyer, Oxenham and Fairlie Bruce have well established groups, meetings, papers, books published about the authors
BPRAL22169: That's right -- Doyle enthusiasts are very enthusiastic.
AGplusone: Anne Rice has a well-established group ...
ddavitt: We would be doing a little more though with the education/scholarship ideas
BPRAL22169: There has been a flowering of small groups on the internet devoted to individual authors.
ddavitt: More than just a group of fans...we would be having an effect on rl I think
AGplusone: And believe it or not ... many of the romantic authors have small groups (some as big as 500 members) on the internet and elsewhere ...
BPRAL22169: True - but there wasn't a Charlotte Bronte (double dot) society until the web
AGplusone: but they don't, or many of them don't ... "pay it forward" to any great extent.
ddavitt: The net has made it very easy for like minded people to meet with no geographical restrictions.
ddavitt: Because their inspiration isn't as inspiring maybe?
MadaNameerf: Don't you already have a "group of fans" disussing?
ddavitt: Or am I being biased? <g>
AGplusone: Yes, Adam ... what this may turn into is taking that notion a
step further ...
siannon prime: Perish the thought, Jane :-)
ddavitt: Yes; the newsgroups and these chats are that I would say
BPRAL22169: No, I think you've got it, Jane -- what a town or city couldn't support, the 120 million or so population of the web can support.
BPRAL22169: We all "live" in one place close-by: the WWW
BPRAL22169: (not the World Wrestling Wfederation)
ddavitt: Only have to look at the people on this chat; US< Canada, Australis, Finland, UK to name a few
siannon prime: World Wide Wair? <g>
siannon prime: Wait sorry!
BPRAL22169: WWWeir, maybe
AGplusone: And that facilitates something ... after we finish discussing RAH stories to a 'been there, done that, wore the tee-shirt out" state, we might want to do a little something else ...
siannon prime: As in plunging over the edge, Bill?
siannon prime: Splash!!
ddavitt: Which maybe the point we've reached now David?
BPRAL22169: For me, talking about it isn't enough, never has been enough.
ddavitt: ( though I can keep on talking about the books indefinitely :-))
ddavitt: Just having people to discuss them with is still a pleasant novelty to me
AGplusone: A good example of that is the SFF group ... not to denigrate them ... but they've been discussing Heinlein since '91 on the old Prodigy net ... but their boards sometimes really get slow because everyone feels they've said all there is to say ...
ddavitt: After reading them for 25 years with very few people I could talk to about them
ddavitt: Yes; one of the sff groups is practically dead at the moment
AGplusone: my point is: maybe we can find something else to 'do' rather than 'talk.'
BPRAL22169: But my observation is, particularly with these old established groups, they're just passing around the same 5% of the possible things to say.
ddavitt: So let's go do it!
AGplusone: and 'charity' is a good for the 'pay it forward' mentality that RAH seemed to think a good idea
ddavitt: Asa Hunter....
BPRAL22169: True -- but I'd also like to pay forward the moral values he passed forward to us.
ddavitt: Unsung hero, turns up over and over in the books
AGplusone: 'charity' can certainly be educational ... and education can be entertaining as well ... Heinlein made it so to us.
BPRAL22169: Give 'em a fish -- but teach 'em to fish.
ddavitt: But what do we want to teach them?
AGplusone: uh-huh ... that point, exactly!
ddavitt: Literacy classes maybe?
LibertarianBill has entered the room.
MadaNameerf: back. How about Long's list of what a human should be able to do?
BPRAL22169: If you could just get these people to wake-the-f***-up everything else would take care of itself.
siannon prime: Yo Bill
ddavitt: Hi Bill
AGplusone: Not politics, certainly ... but maybe just an attitude
AGplusone: Hi, Libby Bill
LibertarianBill: I would have been here earlier, but I fell asleep
siannon prime: Good point, BillP
ddavitt: I strongly feel that anything we do should be apolitical....
LibertarianBill: who needs to wake the f*** up?
AGplusone: I'll send you an e mail of what's gone on up to this, but I'll need a good e mail addy ...
BPRAL22169: Thanks, Jani -- but beyond the ability of a literary society, I'm afraid.
siannon prime: Is it possible to be apolitical?
AGplusone: Yes. It is.
ddavitt: It has to be if this is a world wide effort
MadaNameerf: Heinlein wasn't
siannon prime: A-party-politcal, sure
AGplusone: the major charities do it all the time ...
BPRAL22169: Perhaps "apartisan" instead of apolitical
ddavitt: And wouldn't anything else affect the charity status?
siannon prime: I like apartisan better.
AGplusone: That's a better description ... 'apartisan' ...
AGplusone: but apolitical is a legal requirement
LibertarianBill: Are we discussing the role the Heinlein Society should play in politics?
ddavitt: :-) Or not play
AGplusone: in its common definition.
BPRAL22169: No -- right now we are discussing the role the Heinlein Society should NOT play in politics.
ddavitt: Apartisan sounds fine
BPRAL22169: Jane got there first.
siannon prime: LaPaz for Prez? Sorry ..
AGplusone: There cannot be any ... otherwise we'd lose the tax status
BPRAL22169: He already got elected.
siannon prime: :-)
AGplusone: But education is perfectly legitimate ... teach them to fish is fine.
LibertarianBill: Frankly, the only concern we need to have re: political activity is the loss of tax free status.
ddavitt: What other requirements are there for the charity status out of curiosity;non profit, non political and...?
AGplusone: Exactly ... something we wish to maintain, Bill.
LibertarianBill: ... and I don't think this organization needs to worry about THAT.
ddavitt: It might affect what we can do
stephenveiss: gotta go...might be back in a bit
siannon prime: If we're not promoting any group or party, what's the problem? And we can't, we come from all shades
siannon prime: CY, S
BPRAL22169: Well, there is also the practical consideration that if we get involved in partisan issues, we will alienate a significant fraction of the Society on the other side. To say nothing of internationals.
LibertarianBill: I mean ... how much money would the H.S. have in it's coffers anyway?
stephenveiss has left the room.
AGplusone: Basically sensible ones, Jane. It cannot be a shell for someone's or something's direct benefit ... IOW, bona fide is a requirement.
ddavitt: Would we need an accountant?
ddavitt: I assume there are checks?
siannon prime: If no politcal body contributes to the coffers, and no party line is promoted, then we'd be OK?
BPRAL22169: The proposed membership is in 2 tiers -- $35/an. for participating members, $15/an. for supporting. If there are (pretty typically for single-author societies) 300 members, that gives an annual budget of about $10,000
LibertarianBill: BillP DOES have a point, regarding politics: exactly whice society member decides what political activity is good and which is bad.
AGplusone: Bill Patterson's point is the one I'd like to emphasize ... we want to cast a wide net ... leave no one out.
ddavitt: That's useful information when we're planning our first ventures
siannon prime: I agree.
SageMerlin: Okay, I guess there's a reason I am here
SageMerlin: Background: I spent 25 years running and consulting with npos
PashaMor has entered the room.
SageMerlin: First rule: don't get sidetracked worrying about the rules.
PashaMor: good evening, everyone
SageMerlin: You can't give money to political candidates. You cannot fund political advertising. You can do just about anything else.
AGplusone: Yes, there are checks, filings, etc., 501 c 3 is an IRC section, and requirements are specified ad nauseum ... (good point, Sage!) ... (let the pros take care of the rules) ...
ddavitt: Hi Pasha
AGplusone: And we have pros available ...
SageMerlin: And you can espouse any political platform you wish
BPRAL22169: Sage is giving us a quick course in non profit organizations
PashaMor: hi jane
SageMerlin: as long as you don't put your money where your mouth is....free speech remember?
SageMerlin: We still had it last time I checked.
BPRAL22169: (also known as 501c3 corps. because that's the section of the tax code)
ddavitt: But we're not all American....
LibertarianBill: Well ... I think in the literacure and the charter, we need to mention Heinlein's basic political philosophy, but we don't need to officially endorse any party or make daily commentary on the issures. JUst encourage the reading of Heinlein's works. That in and of itself is a political statement.
ddavitt: Though i hope we all have free speech...
AGplusone: But what is specified will work for you I think ... whether you're 'merican or not ...
siannon prime: I think npos is pretty much the same in the UK.
AGplusone: I agree LibbyBill
SageMerlin: National scope also side issue
SageMerlin: The only ramification of npo status is the deductibility of contributions.
AGplusone: defining the basic political viewpoint might be fun, however .... <g> ...
LibertarianBill: Besides ... any group calling itself the "Heinlein Society" will attract those of a Libertarian bent. If they are anything like me, they are involved in OTHER political activities.
AGplusone: and being able to take advantage of some small breaks on postage ... etc., ....
RWLLaguna: How about "Do what you like... but be prepared to pay the price!" ?
BPRAL22169: You have an odd idea of "fun," David -- we do that behind password locked doors and wash our hands afterwards!
AGplusone: Actually we use "signs, tokens ... " and other things too.
siannon prime: Strider, the Wiccans got there first with *that* one <g>
ddavitt: Why not just start a ST thread and have done David! :-)
RWLLaguna: Oh, darn. All the good ones are taken! <g>
BPRAL22169: Me too. it took me a second to get off the floor to respond.
SageMerlin: David, I think we need to focus on three issues: the goals of the society, the structural organization, and who puts the bell on the cat.
siannon prime: Jane. that was nearly a Godwin :-)
AGplusone: Back on point ... I see.
LibertarianBill: which one here is "Strider"?
ddavitt: ? Lost me...
RWLLaguna: Strider is me, and I am Strider!.
LibertarianBill: welcome Strider .. liked your post earlier.
siannon prime: Jane - ST - Fascist - Godwin-esque
BPRAL22169: I'd like to address structural organization first.
RWLLaguna: Thank you kindly!
SageMerlin: take the floor bill
AGplusone: Go, Bill ...
LibertarianBill: <---- thinking there are too damn many Bills....
SAcademy has left the room.
MadaNameerf: The reverse of my wallet
BPRAL22169: I had in mind to set this up as a "cell" organization -- we define "sections" of the society, each concerned with a specific project. Multiple memberships encouraged, of course. no restrictions. the section head recruits the cell with multiple backups -- as we get inquiries, new members can choose which section they wish to participate in; the section head who may or may not be a
BPRAL22169: board member, is responsible for seeing that there are others who can take over for his/her responsibilities if he/she/it (I suppose) is incapacitated. ideally we would have multiple
SAcademy has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: redundancies, and ideally each section would be pretty much self-administering.
LibertarianBill: like any organization ... you will have people who join because they want something to do ... and you will have members who join because they like to have pretty shiny membership cards in their wallet.
BPRAL22169: The Board of Directors provides oversight, finds people when and as needed, authorizes $$ support when and as appropriate.
ddavitt: Who are the Board?
BPRAL22169: But each section if it decides to do something that requires spending $$ has to figure out how to raise the cash themselves. if it's worth doing, it will be supported.
BPRAL22169: The board at the moment consists of self, Astyanax, Tawn3, Charlie Brown, who doesn't have an AIM handle, AGPlusOne, and Fldax.
BPRAL22169: We are contemplating adding Art Dula to the Board, and I believe Phil Owenby's name has been proposed.
siannon prime: Does each board member oversee a particular segment, then?
AGplusone: Tell us who Charlie Brown is, please, Bill
ddavitt: And Art...
BPRAL22169: Charlie Brown is principally known as a long-time science fiction fan, who has published the news magazine LOCUS for the last thirty years.
LibertarianBill: oh .... Astynax sent me an e-mail once. I still have it
MadaNameerf: Oy, the names. My head is spinning
siannon prime: LibbyB - me too <g>
BPRAL22169: Art Dula is an international lawyer who has been involved in the grassroots space movement for abvout the same length of time. He is also the Society's lawyer for incorporation purposes.
BPRAL22169: You guys asked. Don't gripe.
MadaNameerf: sorry sir.
ddavitt: No gripes/
LibertarianBill: It wqas after I posted somethign about protecting copyrights after the author has passed away ....
BPRAL22169: Well, she would know something about that.
SageMerlin: Well, that was a real pulse raiser
SageMerlin: I am just rip roaring to sign on.....hey, why are we here?
LibertarianBill: yes ... I should not be surprised that a person of her years is internet savvy ....
ddavitt: Is it possible for the board to meet in person? Or is this going to be primarily net based?
BPRAL22169: OK - Astyanax12 on AOL is SAcademy here.
BPRAL22169: We're communicating primarily by net -- but just because internet communication is so convenient.
ddavitt: Especially now group chats like this are possible
BPRAL22169: The Board is in northern California, Southern California, Texas, and Florida so far -- and we may add Tennessee.
LibertarianBill: Oh really!
BPRAL22169: Hawaii not currently planned.
siannon prime: Bill, you're slow sometimes! <G>
RWLLaguna: (Slightly OT: could one of the long-term members perhaps compile a list of names, NG handles and AIM handles? Pretty please?)
SageMerlin: Seems to me that the thing I love most about Robert is being able to give someone a copy of a book that has meant a lot to me and say.....here, read this. You'll like it. Most of the time, that book is by RAH and maybe it would be interesting to suggest that our main reason for being is to promote Heinlein's works because, after an author dies, the public relations machine grinds to a halt....A dead
ddavitt: For now? or later?
SageMerlin: Stephen King won;t sell as many books as a living one, as we almost found out.
BPRAL22169: Are you speaking of his creative death some decades ago?
LibertarianBill: heh heh heh ...
SageMerlin: be nice bill
RWLLaguna: hehehheh great one, Bill....
siannon prime: Claws in, BillP!
LibertarianBill: Stephen King: the Aaron Spelling of horry fiction.
siannon prime: He mentioned Pay Forward at least twice, though!
BPRAL22169: I think in RAH's case, he's selling more now than he did when he was alive.
SageMerlin: (BTW, for the record I have never read anything by Stephen King.)
BPRAL22169: There is some worth reading.
ddavitt: Mor me; don't like scary stuff
PashaMor: "the body" was nice
BPRAL22169: You can read his current stuff, then.
SageMerlin: King is scary....you
BPRAL22169: Oops, sorry.
SageMerlin: are kidding, right.
LibertarianBill: errr..... "horror" fiction
siannon prime: It's not scary - he is good at analysing human behaviour in his *good* works
BPRAL22169: We call those "low flying cheap shots."
AGplusone: OT: just finished and enjoyed Hearts of Alantis ...
BPRAL22169: Someone shouts "pull!" and the reflexes take over.
LibertarianBill: I liked "Stand By Me" ...
siannon prime: Just back on Needful Things ..
PashaMor: yeah - it's the same one
AGplusone: But back to the point ... tell us more about what you think the Society might do, anyone, not just Bill Patterson ... what suggestions?
LibertarianBill: but the guy just keeps cranking out so much repetitive stuff
ddavitt: So; what are the first projects going to be? I would say the first one is publicising the society and getting in the members.
BPRAL22169: Before we leave the subject entirely, an RAH convention has been proposed for a year or two down the line, probably in conjunction with the worldcon.
SageMerlin: First of all the idea of multiple committees running around makes me very tired....it always works better when a group focuses on one thing at a time.
ddavitt: With what we are actually going to do follwoing closely behind that
LibertarianBill: One ot two adds in some of the GOOD science fiction literature magazines would be a good idea.
AGplusone: That's the first, last and always project ... got some time Jane? Tawn and I can always use a little help ...
ddavitt: We mentioned that on thursday; seems like a good idea
siannon prime: Publicise on the Net? Ngs where there are RAH fans?
BPRAL22169: Each section is supposed to focus on one thing.
ddavitt: Sure; until Nov 5
RWLLaguna: Has anyone seen the "Bill of No Rights" that's making the 'net rounds? I think RAH would have heartily agreed with each point. Anything we can do to promote (apartisan) political thinking of that sort would be a positive influence.
LibertarianBill: Perhaps one of the book publishers could include a membership application in its next reissue of a Heinlein novel?
AGplusone: 'kay, that sounds like a volunteer ... Tawn and/or I will be in touch ...
SageMerlin: Now that's the first good idea I've heard tonight
ddavitt: What at the back of the book where other books get advertised you mean?
BPRAL22169: Dave (AGPlusOne) and Tawn3 are working jointly on internet publicity (Dave is our speaker-to-newsgroups) and membership information.
SageMerlin: Ah, don't mistake the medium for the message....I think its a fair dinkum guess that the people we want to meet are not on the internet YET.
siannon prime: OK, if there are ngs David hasn't thought of I'll try and help with uk ones
LibertarianBill: ... and speaking of which, ARE there any re-issues coming out soon?
BPRAL22169: I don't think they're doing inserts anymore -- I haven't seen one in quite awhile.
BPRAL22169: Assignment in Eternity just came out.
LibertarianBill: I still see adds in the back of books all the time. I am not talking of inserts.
BPRAL22169: SFBC just bought the rights to Past Through Tomorrow, so that should show up soon.
ddavitt: Most paperbacks have them; not stiff card inserts but pages
SageMerlin: Those cardboard mailers are out, but it should not be difficult to get the last page of the book or the back cover for a blurb about the society.
AGplusone: But they might do one if it was asked ... Orphans hasn't been reinssued in a while ...
BPRAL22169: Dave, will you pass that suggestion on to Tawn to investigate with Mrs. Heinlein?
Doc4Kidz has entered the room.
LibertarianBill: tooo bad there aren't any remaining unpublished short stories to be included in any re-issue ...
ddavitt: I take it the journal could run an article Bill? or is that preaching to the choir?
AGplusone: I certainly will.
MadaNameerf: Perhaps a mailing would be in order. I would imagine that lists must be available from other fan magazines.
BPRAL22169: I almost ran something his past issue, but I figured I'd wait until it was actually incorporated.
SageMerlin: Mailings are notoriously expensive and unproductive.
AGplusone: If it turned out that lists are available, I wouldn't turn down the chance to have a list, however ...
ddavitt: Are emeail mailings expensive?
LibertarianBill: most mailings just end up in the circular file ...
SageMerlin: Email mailings are cheap as dirt
BPRAL22169: Fanzine publishers routinely share their mailing lists with other fanzines.
LibertarianBill: I think once works gets out in the sci fi community, we will have many more than 300 members ...
SageMerlin: But the first thing you have to do is define your audience.
LibertarianBill: once WORD gets out ....
SageMerlin: Are you looking for serious critics, like those in this circle
AGplusone: or have access to a list ... and e mailings can be inexpensive and attract some notice ... e.g., "Are You A Coward?" worked nicely to start this group 3 plus years ago ...
SageMerlin: or a just those people who might benefit from the exposure?
LibertarianBill: Seriously folks, I am not a bad speller, but my fingers are a fat and sausages and it is hard to hit the correct key.
AGplusone: No, I think we're looking for anyone who may benefit ... or have the willingness to help us pay a bit forward ...
SageMerlin: Can I tell a story???????????
AGplusone: Go ahead, Alan
SageMerlin: There was a famous author of spiritual books. One day a man came to his door and complained.
LibertarianBill: I don't know. Can you?
SageMerlin: You shouldn't charge so much for your books
SageMerlin: The famous author agreed to look into the matter.
SageMerlin: And asked the visitor to come back in a month
SageMerlin: The famous author then went to work, washing dishes in a restaurant to earn the money to buy the complete index of his works, which he then presented to his visitor
SageMerlin: Anyone get the point????
AGplusone: or, perhaps, focus?
SageMerlin: Both and more\
BPRAL22169: relative value
SageMerlin: We have all been gifted with something very special
SageMerlin: Which is our UNDERSTANDING of RAH
ddavitt: Anyone can work for the money to buy them , only one person can write the books?
SageMerlin: Not just knowing about him, but actually understanding what he was about.
SageMerlin: Good one DD, and cloes.
SageMerlin: By the way, the man involved was a multi-millionnaire in his own right.
SageMerlin: He had no need to work to raise the money.
ddavitt: We have to bait our trap with something...<g>
AGplusone: "ARE YOU A COWARD?" or "poy it forward"?
LibertarianBill: wasn't there a thread recently in AFH about dishwashing as a recurring theme?
siannon prime: Oh I get it. The visitor wanted something for nothing. Sheesh, I'm slow tonight!
ddavitt: We are asking people to put money ( and hopefully effort) into this so they need to see that it's worth it
SageMerlin: WE are here because RAH means something very special to us. THAT is what has to be communicated to others.
siannon prime: Mike's thing about money in the CAW.
siannon prime: In fact, that whole philosophy reminds meof what we're discussing here
AGplusone: So we need an imaginative pitch is one of the things you are saying, Sage?
BPRAL22169: What I would like to see is each person in the Society because it assists them in what we have been calling "paying it forward."
SageMerlin: In a roundabout way. We are the keepers of the dream.
LibertarianBill: <---- I'm just looking for the pretty new membership card for my wallet.:-D
AGplusone: Or of the 'light'
LibertarianBill: ... right next to my LP membership card.
ddavitt: But we feel that way because we are converts; we've read the books. How can we attract people who don't know H? or is that possible at this stage?
ddavitt: The blood drives might...
BPRAL22169: This particular group (believe it or not!) is relatively homogenous.
SageMerlin: Not me. I'm a republican
BPRAL22169: Even our experience on running discussion groups on the web has been that there is great diversity.
siannon prime: Not me. I'm straight.
LibertarianBill: At the very least, next time some Hollywood hack tries to make a movie out of a RAH novel, the Heinlein Society can issue a press release denouncing it, or praising it, as the case may be.
SAcademy has left the room.
BPRAL22169: The thing about the legacy we have taken from Heinlein is that it's not a static thing,but it lives and grows uniquely in each of us. And it is that life that needs to be passed on.
LibertarianBill: Is SAcademis who I think she is?
ddavitt: i think we all agree on that; now we need to get practical.
stephenveiss has entered the room.
SageMerlin: That's academic
SageMerlin: And not worth discussing.
BPRAL22169: That SAcademy
LibertarianBill: ok ok ok
SAcademy has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: Not at all: it goes directly to the "single project" you were advocating earlier.
BPRAL22169: Every Heinleinian is going to have his unique reasons for being a part of the Society.
ddavitt: What are we going to do with our 10K ( being optimistic?)
BPRAL22169: Rule wisely.
SageMerlin: I was just about to discuss process.....
BPRAL22169: Let's go.
ddavitt: I think we need some solid projects to show to prospective members
SageMerlin: There are three ways that groups operate
SageMerlin: by concensus (minority rules)
SageMerlin: by vote (majority oppresses minority)
SageMerlin: and by initiative (e veryone does his own thing)
SageMerlin: On the internet, and maybe only here, three works better than one or two
LibertarianBill: MOst of these type sof organizations are formed because people with shared interests want to form groups, plan activities, etc. They are for social activities. But they also adopt one or two charities. I would think with RAH's interest in blood donations, that would be our focus as well.
SageMerlin: All in favor of giving blood, raise their hands,
SageMerlin: All opposed
SageMerlin: Blood drive is our official charity
BPRAL22169: All in favor of giving blood, raise your IVs
LibertarianBill: Just because we are talking over the Internet, I don't think the Heinlein Society should necessarily be an "internet orgazation." That is alomst a contradiction in terms.
siannon prime: Not cats blood, though ..
ddavitt: With the set up; everyone can do their own thing if they can show that they are within the guidelihes and can raise the cash
SageMerlin: Okay, now we can move on to the next item.
SageMerlin: How about this for a model.
SageMerlin: Member gets idea
LibertarianBill: <---- gave blood at work last week.
SageMerlin: Member proposes idea to board
SageMerlin: Board mulls over idea
SageMerlin: Thinks idea is stupid, says sso
SageMerlin: Thinks idea is great
SageMerlin: proposes it to membership
SageMerlin: membership approves
SageMerlin: member gets to carry the ball
BPRAL22169: Slight modification.
BPRAL22169: When you're 30
siannon prime: Point of order, Sage. What happens when the Board changes?
LibertarianBill: We are too diverse geographically to make decisions by group vote. We need a dictator. In other words: an executive director.
SageMerlin: Every day's a new day
ddavitt: I think asking the memebers would slow it down too much
SageMerlin: You've never been an executive director, then, if you can formulate that sentence.
SageMerlin: But that's how membership organizations work.
siannon prime: Me?
AGplusone: Best way is: member gets idea, proposes idea to 'board' and board says (within reason) take it and run with it ... i.e., you just volunteered, and here's some people that may wish to help you ...
ddavitt: On the web pagee there could be a link that sends an email to the directors so that people can have one place for inputting suggestions
BPRAL22169: The modification I was going to interject is that there's really no point in consulting the membership about things like that (as a general rule) -- open a section and the membership will vote by joining or not.
ddavitt: Self mainataining
SageMerlin: Okay amendment accepted
BPRAL22169: However, there may well be society-wide issues
LibertarianBill: well, it would depend on the board, I suppose. Good board's get the best person they can and let that person work. Bad boards try to micromanage and second guess everything.
AGplusone: I agree LBill
BPRAL22169: I'm describing the actual working of the functioning board.
siannon prime: What happens when the Board changes, and new directors take over?
ddavitt: Will the web page be there to show the projects, progress etc or will it be paper based?
AGplusone: If you stiffle initiative, you'll get none.
SageMerlin: Board memberships evolve. You have a six member board, you replace two each year.
BPRAL22169: At this moment we don't have provisions for a change of boards except by individual votes
LibertarianBill: More and boards and organizations are meeting by way of teleconferencing. Some elected boards here often have one or two members attanding by conference call.
LibertarianBill: attending. grrrrrr
BPRAL22169: Question: is there any particular reason we should change board members periodically? i know it's the usual way to go, but why?
AGplusone: So effectively, law of corporations would generally apply ... absent by-laws ...
BPRAL22169: I see the Board as chiefly administrative.
SageMerlin: LBill, I have some slimfast left over from my last attempt.
siannon prime: OK, I'm just thinking none of us will be here forever, that's all.
SageMerlin: Bill, Bill, boards don't administrate, they obfuscate \
SageMerlin: And I don't give a rat's ass about spelling
Doc4Kidz: are you considering central/national authority and local "chapters"?
AGplusone: I.e., with proper notice, Board can do anything legal within corporate powers it wants ...
Doc4Kidz: is that what we're talking about?
SageMerlin: Hey, doc, nice to see you again
LibertarianBill: chapters? aren't ee getting ahead of ourselves?
BPRAL22169: My intention was to add board members on a functional basis, so (what did you misspell?) the board handles the cross-sectional communication.
BPRAL22169: Thequestion of local chapters has been brought up but not discussed to any extent. Want to talk about it now?
LibertarianBill: I am not repeating it, BillP
siannon prime: Maybe I'm looking too far ahead.
AGplusone: I.e., each section puts a member on the Board, BillP?
Doc4Kidz: I wa trying to compare it to other national organizations to which I belong
SageMerlin: You know the unique thing about the internet is that it makes direct democracy possible.
ddavitt: It's not a closed shop...if members don't like what's going on , they can leave or set up their own version of the Society
SageMerlin: And I will bet you that Robert would have wanted to try it.
RWLLaguna: Sage: Hear! Hear!
LibertarianBill: The Internet makes it possible for everyone to comment to everyone else. I am not sue it makes direct DEMOCRACY possible.
Doc4Kidz: as long as you solve an equation or something first!
SageMerlin: If you don't like it you leave.
SageMerlin: Doc, you just bounced me out.
Maugham9 has entered the room.
siannon prime: Oh boy, me bounced too!
LibertarianBill: My My how ELITIST of you! :-P
AGplusone: ['those of you who want to go back go over there, those who want to stay go over to that other place, and those of you who want to explore other galaxies, gather here near the podium ... ") :-)
Maugham9: Evening everyone. :-)
AGplusone: Evenin' Maugham
BPRAL22169: We aren't stuck on glue to this cell system -- if direct democracy seems workable, we can do that. But I want to stick to the cell system to get it started.
SageMerlin: Thanks, David. I knew I was channeling but I couldn't remember from which book
LibertarianBill: Now ... who in this room in a egular in AFH? If so, state your regular handles over there!
LibertarianBill: <---- posts under real name these days WilliamDennis
BPRAL22169: There's a big problem with volunteer organizations with people's available time disappearing unpredictably.
ddavitt: same as here; saves me remembering too much
siannon prime: Good point, BillP
BPRAL22169: Me too
ddavitt: Yes, that's true
AGplusone: I suggest we take the traditional "five" minute break to water our cats, etc., now ... to 25 past the hour ... ???
BPRAL22169: Fine by me.
siannon prime: Get cat off table and Ros's artwork, in my case...
RWLLaguna: Sounds good.
LibertarianBill: Water my cat? I don't keep my cat in the toile ... Oh, I get it.
SageMerlin: these pit stops just show your age
Doc4Kidz: well, friends. I'm glad to have chatted even briefly with you tonight, however "honest work" awaits. Goodnight.
AGplusone: Okay, Libby Bill ... you've got the conn. Intro anyone who shows up and tell 'em what we're doing ... <veg> and try not to run the thing too far to starboard, please <g>
siannon prime: Better than blooding the cat, which was a feature of Thursday's chat :-)
LibertarianBill: yeah yeah sure. The last time someone left me in charge they regretted it ... heh heh heh
siannon prime: Why does that not surprise me? <bg>
AGplusone: "Zim" is a really nice guy. You know that, don't you, Bill?
Doc4Kidz has left the room.
LibertarianBill: which Bill? And who is "Zim" ... aside from the character in St?
BPRAL22169: When we come back, why don't we take a short report from Jani on her project.
BPRAL22169: you -- and Zim is AGPlusOne's alter ego. Sometimes AGPlusOne is Zim's alter ego.
MadaNameerf has left the room.
LibertarianBill: Oh sure. (actually, I didn't know).
BPRAL22169: I'll do a brief intro on the existing sections.
LibertarianBill: I just hope CryoRandy isn't here.
BPRAL22169: Ahope all of us fervently follow
LibertarianBill: I wonder where Steve P is
ddavitt: He was here at the end on thursady
ddavitt: After I'd gone to bed though.
siannon prime: Did anyone invite labert?
ddavitt: Is he on?
LibertarianBill: I can always count on Steve to liven up the conversation ... and take it into controversy
AGplusone: [by the way, my 'buddy list' went to ether land with the reinstallation last week, so if anyone sees anyone on line, please invite them in!)
siannon prime: Damn, no he's off now. I should have looked earlier :-(
LibertarianBill: where if Giffiord?
ddavitt: Not online
LibertarianBill: where is Gifford? (OK, that one was my fault)
ddavitt: Don't worry about the spelling Bill; slows it down on a chat; we won't nag :-)
TAWN3 has entered the room.
siannon prime: Hiya Tawn
ddavitt: I think i referred to the number of the Breast once here...
TAWN3: Hello all
BPRAL22169: I make no promises!
SAcademy: Hello. Tawn
ddavitt: But that's not so far off the mark :-D
ddavitt: Hi tawn
TAWN3: Hi SAcademy
TAWN3: Hi Jane
TAWN3: Hi everyone else
LibertarianBill: Hello SAcademy!
LibertarianBill: Howdy Tawn!
TAWN3: Hey Bill
ddavitt: <hums Waltons theme> :-)
LibertarianBill: we are on a "water the cat" break ...
stephenveiss: I'm back for a bit, btw
PashaMor: hey, bill, may i ask you something?
LibertarianBill: Assuming I am the Bill of which you speak.
LibertarianBill: we are sick with Bills in here
PashaMor: what about translasions of RAH works?
AGplusone: Hi, Steve ...
SAcademy: Ralph keeps working on that.
LibertarianBill: must have meant the OTHER Bill
ddavitt: I have a French Glory Road...
LibertarianBill: "French Glory Road"?
ddavitt: GR in french
AGplusone: Okay, BPRAL ... it's 25 past ... please continue ...
LibertarianBill: That sounds somewhat obscene
DenvToday has entered the room.
DenvToday: Greetings one and all.
LibertarianBill: Howdy Denver?
DenvToday: Hi Bill.
AGplusone: Hi, Denv ... WB ... from Thursday ... get the log post from Dave Wright?
DenvToday: Hiya dd.
PashaMor: that's it? that's your answer?
DenvToday: Thanks David. Yes, I got the log and read it.
BPRAL22169: Ok -- I wanted to give a brief rundown on the existing sections. There is a Website section, which is headed by Kevin O'Brien and I'm participating in it with Dave Silver and Solomon Davidoff. Contact me by e-mail if you wish to participate.
ddavitt: What do you mean Pasha? there are foreign editions I think
DenvToday: Hi Laguna and Bpral.
PashaMor: yeah - like 4 or maybe 5 of them - that's all
BPRAL22169: There is a blood drive section, for which no section head has yet been designated. (some of these sections are not filled yet; we're still incorporating)
PashaMor: not enough
ddavitt: I agree it would be good to have more.
BPRAL22169: There will be something like an "academic" section which is completely unorganized at this moment. We're still collecting information for it.
MadaNameerf has entered the room.
stephen clone has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: There is a memberships section headed by Tawn, who has just joined us.
ddavitt: Though i don't know what is lost in translation; "map is the territory'
SAcademy: There are lots of foreign editions. Some came in last week.
BPRAL22169: Tawn, SAcademy, have I missed any of the major ones?
stephen clone: Off topic: YES! I can now use AIM via IRC :-)
siannon prime: Who's that?
stephenveiss: its me
stephenveiss: via IRC
siannon prime: Oh, boring...
ddavitt: You're twins! How Heinleinian
AGplusone: Any comments, additions, anyone ... about sections we might form ... volunteers (victims) who wish to step forward ... ? [by the way, Tawn, Jane Davitt volunteered earlier to help with membership].
siannon prime: I though it was Chris :-(
SAcademy: My scroll stuck. I don't know.
stephenveiss: heeh - but chris C can connect the same way
RWLLaguna: I do web database development if there is a need for that.
TAWN3: Not that I can think of Bill
BPRAL22169: Ok, let that stand for the moment. We can add more later
ddavitt: Until Nov 5 or baby arrival whichever comes first
DenvToday: Suggestion: Laissez Faire Books in California is a major seller of RAH novels through its catalogue and web page. They might be open to participation. Likewise the Libertarian Party at lp.org.
BPRAL22169: Oh -- interface with Fandom, but that's not necessarily a section.
AGplusone: [please figure out from you list what you'd like here to help with, Tawn ... ]
siannon prime: Bill, am I in "academic"? Any chance Phillip would head it?
BPRAL22169: Jani came up with a great idea for the academic section, and I thought I'd ask for a preliminary report.
ddavitt: So, web page, blood, academic,membership....sounds enough to start with
BPRAL22169: But before we do - let's add a couople of "purposes" we've pretty much agreed upon but haven't organized yet.
AGplusone: I think that would be a good place to start the 'education' section, perhaps ... for Jani, Phillip, maybe a few others ... we have several teachers at various levels ...
LibertarianBill: The home schooling community might be interested in material on the Heinlein juveniles.
BPRAL22169: Get kids reading the juveniles especially; keep RAH's books in libraries and available
LibertarianBill: The public schools probably could not care less.
ddavitt: That too came up on Thursday
ddavitt: great minds :-)
BPRAL22169: Ok -- Bill, good intro for Jani -- please, let's let Jani have the floor.
ddavitt: GA Jani
AGplusone: But there is a speaker program ... Jani, it's yours
LibertarianBill: Individuals can keep RAH novels in stock by buying them and donating.
LibertarianBill: GA Jani
MadaNameerf: I would like to state my intentions of officially joining this group and offer my not-so-strong back and not-so-quick mind to any of the project leaders.
siannon prime: OK. What I was originally planning was a PSE course (that's like H&MP/ethics) based on RAH material ..
BPRAL22169: Ok, MN -- we'll take some more info later.
MadaNameerf: If anyone needs a resellers license, I can help.
AGplusone: Noted, Adam ...
DenvToday: Mada, good for you!
siannon prime: The Thursday chat mentioned home-schooling and I'm not sure how well that would fit, as I was looking at group discussion in class rather than one-to-one ...
LibertarianBill: Oh ... "FREEMAN" (slapping my head)
siannon prime: But any help/input welcome...
ddavitt: Some home schoolers are groups I think
BPRAL22169: Excuse me -- we're talking about a package of issue explorations for teacher use.
ddavitt: they have field trips...
BPRAL22169: using Heinlein materials.
stephen clone has left the room.
siannon prime: What I have so far is a one-term study plan covering ethical issues using RAH as start-point and RAH in further reading...
LibertarianBill: yes... they tend to appreciate good books, as opposed to text books stuff written by professional educators who dumb everything down.
AGplusone: But that might adapt nicely to "home schooling" ...
BPRAL22169: And it spreads out to the idea of self-education.
LibertarianBill: ok, ok, I;ll get off my "home schooling" horse
BPRAL22169: which adults can use as well as children.
ddavitt: Would you mix in others to provide alternate POV's Jani?
siannon prime: As soon as I have even one unit formulated and up-for-grabs I'll post and email for people to look at in detail ..
AGplusone: The sort of thing that Phillip Owensby writes about "adult education" in his dissertation that Gifford is about to publish ...
siannon prime: Other authors, Jane? Yes, but the base is RAH.
ddavitt: i just wonder how ready offical groups would be to concentrate on one author
siannon prime: .. topics such as Other Ways Than Ours, personal responsibility, et al.
LibertarianBill: why not do individual study plans for individual novels?
siannon prime: Could do, Bill, but u have to get novel on syllabus first!
ddavitt: Scrap LOTF, have Tunnel instead!
ddavitt: Much more fun and less depressing
siannon prime: That's it so far except I have a mass of scribbled notes everywhere and Phillip's quote databank on the desktop :-)
BPRAL22169: I think these are ideas that could profitably be discussed by the Education Section meeting either in camera or by e-mail.
LibertarianBill: True ... in the public schools, the curriculum is determines at the State level. Local school boards just rubber stamp it. Individual teachers have virtually no input.
ddavitt: Or on the ng's? How much will they be used?
siannon prime: E-list for the ed people, Bill?
BPRAL22169: Pronouns, Jane -- what means this "they"
stephenveiss has left the room.
ddavitt: newsgroups being the they
BPRAL22169: Get out your steno pad, Jani -- sounds to me like Libertarian Bill wants in.
DenvToday has left the room.
siannon prime: I know RAH people on other ngs who might be able to contribute
RWLLaguna: Perhaps a Society ng could be set up?
ddavitt: AFH has worked well as a place for pre meeting posts for these chats
LibertarianBill: at the home school level ... parents themselves decide. But I have gotten off THAT horse.
AGplusone: That's something we need to tap, Jani ...
siannon prime: If Bill and labert could come in, that would be good, yes
ddavitt: But is it the place to discuss Society stuff?
siannon prime: I don't think afh is best place for it, though
AGplusone: Sure, why not ...
BPRAL22169: What I would like is as a potential new member contacts the Society -- presumably through the website at www.heinleinsociety.com -- they will be asked what they are interested in participating in, and their addys will be given to the appropriate section head.
ddavitt: Might get lost in the overall discussion
BPRAL22169: Then we will have buttons on the website for late-breaking updates on each of the sections.
LibertarianBill: Any Heinlein Society newsgroup would have to be heavilly moderated.
siannon prime: Hmm
LibertarianBill: If it becomes spam filled, it loses its value.
ddavitt: That's not afh by a long way
AGplusone: True, but it's relatively easy to put the discussion back on track and it's EFFECTIVE ADVERTISING to lurkers!
ddavitt: I certainly think we shouldn't be backward about mentioning it on afh
siannon prime: If it's only a ng for people thru the soc site, or people we know ...?
BPRAL22169: I think a set of threaded message boards is going to be utterly essential for the website.
AGplusone: You put your best thought into a post on a topic and people start reading the posts ...
ddavitt: Good way to reach real fans quickly and cheaply
siannon prime: CC relevant posts to afh?
ddavitt: But not the place for discussion of minutaie
AGplusone: And then they join the Society ...
AGplusone: or chat group ... as the case may be ...
LibertarianBill: You do understand simply creating a NG doesn't mean individual ISPs will give customers access.
AGplusone: That's a very good point, Bill
BPRAL22169: That's one of the reasons it's going to be necessary for the website to have its own message boards.
LibertarianBill: of course, members are interested people can always simply ask they ISp to include it.
MadaNameerf: Is it possible to do it through a website?
ddavitt: Don't think we need a ng as such
RWLLaguna: AFAIK, most ISPs take the whole enchilada... if they block, its usually the XXX ngs...
LibertarianBill: I am sure they get requests all the time .. ususlaly for porn newsgroups, etc.
BPRAL22169: But I think we ought to be able to set it up to cross-post to afh on command.
LibertarianBill: usually, I mean
AGplusone: It is, but then getting people to go to the website is an advertising matter ....
siannon prime: Boards from the site, and ... yes, what BillP said
ddavitt: I'm on Netscape and can't get alt books rah
RWLLaguna: But a message board on the website is quite do-able.
LibertarianBill: Netscape isn't an ISP and it isn't netscape's fault. It is the ISP.
ddavitt: Kaz's page has one doesn't it?
siannon prime: Yes
AGplusone: But that's something for the internet section to discuss ...
BPRAL22169: Yes, it's just a matter of buying the software. There is free message board software, but they're often not threaded, and we neede threaded capabilty.
LibertarianBill: or whatever you call ISP's in england.
AGplusone: so does Beth ... lots do ... and make recommendations overall concerning ....
siannon prime: We call them a pain in the butt, Bill
LibertarianBill: that's what I call mine, on occassion.
SageMerlin: DD what the hell is a ng?
siannon prime: That is a very good question, Sage :-)
SageMerlin: Oh, thanks
AGplusone: My point is: use what exists as an effective lifeboat until you can afford a yacht and know what kind to buy.
LibertarianBill: BTW: AOL 6.0 is floating out there. If it is like AOL 5.0 wait and see that the reviews say before upgrading. Let someone else experiment. AOL 5.0 had huge problems.
BPRAL22169: or "no good"
LibertarianBill: NG = newsgroup. AKA "Usenet"
ddavitt: Is that an abbreviation I made up then? <puzzled>
AGplusone: I'm still on 4.0 LB, not a dummy, me ...
siannon prime: Amazes me that people do lists and email, but not ngs.
TAWN3: We should have a Society newsgroup
LibertarianBill: no you are not AG
siannon prime: Of course I only do good ngs <g>
SageMerlin: No you just keep crashing that granny smith you hang out with
LibertarianBill: errr. David
BPRAL22169: but the good and the n.g. cancel each other out, leaving you doing nothing.
SageMerlin: That Stephen Jobs thing.
BPRAL22169: Ok -- no religious wars at the moment!
SageMerlin: SA excuse for a CPT
SageMerlin: In colors yet
LibertarianBill: <--- restarting college on Thursday on a p.t. basis. Getting a certificate in networking.
ddavitt: But what would the ng DO?
siannon prime: Leaves me talking too much and doing no work, BillP
AGplusone: ... and afh exists and a certain amount of good posts about the Society on AFH will help us now.
ddavitt: that the web page with message board wouldn't?
LibertarianBill: I say post away on AFH. It's gets a lot of lurkers.
AGplusone: Do both if you can afford it, Jane ...
siannon prime: How many lurkers on afh, tho?
LibertarianBill: and posting in other sci-fi groups would help.
SAcademy has left the room.
ddavitt: I read once, 100 for each poster...
AGplusone: The Lord knows ... about five came out of the woodwork this week, didn't they ... ?
siannon prime: afp has a thread about that atm.
BPRAL22169: There's anewsgroup and readers group project being formed right now in the membership section.
LibertarianBill: Once the www.heinleinsociety.com page is up with information, it can be submitted to the web crawler companies so it will show up on search engines.
BPRAL22169: Talk to AGPlusOne and/or Tawn3
MadaNameerf: thats me. out of the woodwork.
BPRAL22169: The page is up; it just doesn't have anything on it yet except "under construction."
LibertarianBill: so anyone who enteres "heinlein" in Yahoo or Netscape etc. can theoretically hit on the web page.
siannon prime: At least there's no fiddly graphics on it <g>
SAcademy has entered the room.
AGplusone: 'tanks, Bill. (And another "in addition to your other duties" ... assignment, now where have I heard that one before?)
ddavitt: Need to mention the web page to the other groups so they can include it in their links 9 if they want to)
BPRAL22169: du bist vilkommen herein.
LibertarianBill: But the real trick it to get the page included in a "web ring" of like-minded science fiction sites. That way visitors to other established sites can visit "accidentally" when they browse. If they like they call back, perhaps include it on their own "links" page.
Maugham9 has left the room.
BPRAL22169: You're talking strategy now, and that's a matter that should be discussed with the section.
ddavitt: Other place to advertise could be the online SF magazines; the ones that did review's of Jim's book for instance
LibertarianBill: <---- noticing there are a lot of lurkers in here. Welcome,
AGplusone: We can use help on formulating these ideas in the "newsgroup and readers group project" we just found out Tawn and I have .... any victims? BillH ... "I need a couple guys what don't owe me no money for little routine patrol ..."
AGplusone: Anyone's help ...
ddavitt: i will help on anything I can do on the computer
TAWN3: Especially anyone familiar with fanzines
AGplusone: here, now, later, by e mail, from someone how reads this log ...
AGplusone: who reads this log
ddavitt: My mobility is low at the moment with family commitments
BPRAL22169: What is being said is: anyone who is interested in participating in helping to promote the Society to newsgroups please contact AGPlusOne@loop.com. Have I got it right? Or would you prefer to have Tawn the contact?
ddavitt: aka summer holidays ( 10 weks over here Jani!)
DenvToday has entered the room.
DenvToday: Hello again.
BPRAL22169: Please make your Subject line something with The Heinlein Society in it.
siannon prime: Jane, the hols seem to go on forever here <g>
AGplusone: either of us, both ... copy AGPlusOne@loop.com if you wish to ensure I get it ...
ddavitt: So; we have the organisation, we have the projects. We're all green for go?
siannon prime: So is everyone OK with my mentioning this on other ngs?
ddavitt: Rasfw maybe?
AGplusone: Absolutely ... all the help you can give us, Jani
BPRAL22169: The same goes for anyone interested in participating in Blood Drives, Education or Academic projects, website development, or to suggest other projects. Contact the society through firstname.lastname@example.org -- or you can go to the Society's site and use the "contact us" button there.
dwrighsr: BTW. Anyone here who is not receiving notices of these log, and wishes to, please e-mail at email@example.com
Skansiewic has entered the room.
siannon prime: Ukrp and uls have RAH fans, and educationalists... might be worth trying.
AGplusone: Hi, Stan ... welcome back
BPRAL22169: And that information should probably be posted on afh, as well.
ddavitt: How about education ng's specifically/ Are there any?
ddavitt: I've seen ones for librarians
siannon prime: That's K12 on Deja, isn't it? never been there!
BPRAL22169: Sage, you had some pretty definite ideas going there -- want to throw in your hat again?
AGplusone: Did you get DaveWright's notice of the URL for the log of last Thursday's meetings on AFH, Stan?
Skansiewic: yeah.. the K12 heirarchy has some teachers groups
Skansiewic: uh no but I"m sure I'll see it if its in AFH
siannon prime: I'm trying to avoid xposts dismissed as spam, though.
AGplusone: If anyone's missed it.
AGplusone: I think anything written well will get through ...
BPRAL22169: Ok -- I've run through the topics I was particularly interested in discussing this time. Free chat, but let's keep it off the level of highly detailed strategy.
siannon prime: Depends on the ng, David - some of them don't look at anything where even the header is slightly iffy.
BPRAL22169: like that.
MadaNameerf has left the room.
siannon prime: Sorry, Bill :-(
AGplusone: Okay ... tea break again ... their loss then ... 'til 5 past the hour and then we'll resume. Libby Bill's got the conn again ...
LibertarianBill: You are far too trusting my friend ...
AGplusone: Zim trusts 'everyone'
LibertarianBill: I might take it over and use it as a LP forum ....
siannon prime: No you won't <g>
Skansiewic: most newsgroups that are somewhat or completely closed to xposting wouldn't In my experience be targets as educator focused. Most educators I know wouldn't know how to check a header for forgery let alone see if its xposted. and that is unfortunate
BPRAL22169: Where do you live, LB?
LibertarianBill: Peoria, Ill.
LibertarianBill: Not exactly the heartland of libertarianism.
LibertarianBill: Illinois is the most corrupt state in the union, I am afraid.
BPRAL22169: Ok. You won't make it to the next Karl Hess club, then.
siannon prime: Stan, IME of ngs generally, it's a matter of skimming for relevance. If the headers too long or not immediately grabbing, the post gets ignored.
AGplusone: reason why every e mail you get from me, Jani, will lead off with word "Heinlein" if it's about the chats, society, etc.
Skansiewic: siannon, IME most non-tech people in NGs dont' even know what headers are.
siannon prime: Well, I don't get too much email spam, and I look for the sender before the header anyway!
LibertarianBill: well, it depends on what type of :header" you are talking about, I suppose .... ;-)
ddavitt: bugs me on afh when people respond to spam I never saw in the first place....and quote it all :-(
AGplusone: I look at both ... if I recognize neither, 75% are deleted ... true ... your headers are different that subject lines
siannon prime: Stan, I'm learning to hack paths cos I hate using "the system" without understanding the techie of it <g>
MadaNameerf has entered the room.
stephenveiss has entered the room.
Skansiewic: siannon, IMO its important to know the system. IF, you are relying on it for anything
AGplusone: [another reason why this 'internet group' of Tawn's and mine(?) can use volunteers who know something about the subject]
LibertarianBill: There was recently a post on the newsgroup about
Libertarian Nazis .... it really ticked me off because SOMEONE cross posted it. I wont mention names. So that miserable group got free publicity.
RWLLaguna: (raises hand) Here, Sir!
RWLLaguna: (some small amount, that is!)
LibertarianBill: People PLEASE ignore such idiots. Arguing with them only gives tham what thyey want: Free publicity.
siannon prime: Stan, I don't like pseuds or bullies in RL or on the Net, so I'm learning to counter them.
AGplusone: Thank you .... <g> take that man's name down, Tawn!
Skansiewic: Uh whats a libertarian Nazi?? I didn't think there was such a thing...
siannon prime: It is not Bill :-)
dwrighsr: Is that what you were asking me about the other day, Tawn?
LibertarianBill: This group also claimed the title "socialist' which isn't fair to socialists.
LibertarianBill: Not that i like socialists, but they aren't f***ing Nazis.
Skansiewic: and RAH was a fascist ;-):-P j/k
DenvToday: To the far left, if you you're not a socialist, then you're a Nazi.
siannon prime: Godwin!
AGplusone: Five past the hour ... anyone have any thoughts about what aims the Society should have ... or somethin' we're missin' here?
RWLLaguna: These days, Nazi=fascist=(anything you don't like at this instant)
TAWN3: Yes David, and other stuff
Skansiewic: actually Denv nazi's are far right... not left...
AGplusone: Go Tawn ...
dwrighsr: Ok. Let me know what and when
TAWN3: I was saying Yes to David Wright
DenvToday: Skan, RAH was demonized as a fascist by the New York "intelligentsia" after publication of Starship Troopers.
ddavitt: Scholarships....will that be a separate area? Or under education heading?
DenvToday: Skan, not true. Nazism was National Socialism.
TAWN3: Under Ed
BPRAL22169: Depends on how it is set up. Input being taken.
ddavitt: Or is that in the future/
AGplusone: Fund raising ... ???
LibertarianBill: I think the Society should have a person authorized to respond to criticism of Heinlein, such as that buffoon who called RAH a crap facist author.
ddavitt: Ignore them....
SageMerlin: Shoot them. rather
AGplusone: Every 'charity' depends on that ... to do anything.
BPRAL22169: I agree
LibertarianBill: It's one thing for us as individuals to write letters to his college paper, it is another to send in on official Heinlein Society letterhead.
ddavitt: Sine qua non
Skansiewic: Denv, I'm familiar with the accusations. related to starship troopers.
TAWN3: RWLLaguna, what is your e-mail so we can get in touch with you?
BPRAL22169: With both, of course.
DenvToday: Yep. Unfair and unfortunate.
RWLLaguna: firstname.lastname@example.org or email@example.com...
SageMerlin: Damn, I faded back in at just the wrong time. David quite nicely has not mentioned that I am a professional fundraiser. Of course, The RAH Society gets a deep discount.....\
Skansiewic: IIRC, Starship troopers was at least semi-satirical.IMO
LibertarianBill: If enough people get away with calling Heinlein a fascist, and there is no responce or attampt to correct them, then it becomes the truth in the public's eyes.
AGplusone: <g> Zim's arm always reaches out ...
ddavitt: How would we fund raise? sponsored readathons?
AGplusone: Tell us what your experience with small start up groups has been
DenvToday: Very true, Bill.
SageMerlin: First rule, 90% of the money comes from 10% of the people. Live with it.
AGplusone: Then I'll tell you what Masons do ...
Skansiewic: True Sage.
siannon prime: David, I know what Masons do <g>
SageMerlin: Its starts with a tithe, with us. I won't work with a group that won
DenvToday: Merlin, I've had some experience with it as well. Fund raising for a charity I'm involved with. Mostly direct mail.
SageMerlin: won't kick in with some jump start money.
LibertarianBill: An official Helinlein Society boycott/educational campaign could have been waged after the Starship Troopers movie came out. We could hve encourages people to read the REAL STarship Troopers and done them some good.
ddavitt: We touched on official merchandise on Thursday...
DenvToday: Good point, Bill.
SageMerlin: And in fact whoud that have had a significant impact??????? I don't think so. You have to remember it is both the podium and the speaker.
LibertarianBill: Shriners are Masons. They drive little mini motor bikes and parades and raise money for children's hospitals.
siannon prime: Good point Sage
siannon prime: Libby, it was a little joke at David, ignore it.
SageMerlin: The Shriners actually raise most of their money from charitable remainder trusts left by their members.
LibertarianBill: OK... sure.
SageMerlin: I just had an opportunity to speak with the national chairman of the Shriners about how they raise funds. 90% of their funds come from their own ranks.
AGplusone: About eighteen of those hospitals, actually ... and they also shake down their memberships every year ... for that ten percent.
ddavitt: I think we'll need to get awfully well known to be able to influnce movie goers...
LibertarianBill: I as on my soapbox again and not paying attention.
AGplusone: who give ninety percent
ddavitt: Not sure we should either
SageMerlin: (They had their annual convention in Boston this year.)
SageMerlin: (I live in Boston.)
LibertarianBill: Shriner's hospitals and financial help saved my dad's life. He had polio as a boy.
AGplusone: But how they do it ... is the question we're looking at ...
AGplusone: and how we could do it.
siannon prime: OK, it was a religious joke, fell flat! Wasn't criticising Masons on a social level!
DenvToday: If it makes you feel better, you can always criticize Jackie Mason.
MadaNameerf has left the room.
ddavitt: Jumble sales....bake sales...is there anything in take back that covers this? :-)
AGplusone: $2 million daily to charity is what they give (the entire fraternity) <g> Jani.
LibertarianBill: or Marsha Mason
stephenveiss has left the room.
LibertarianBill: or Mason Willson
LibertarianBill: or Mason Jars
DenvToday: We're too late for James Mason. Even though I do a killer impression.
SageMerlin: Actually, David. I think with the CRTs it is quite a lot more these days.
SageMerlin: And Alec Guiness just left exit stage left.
siannon prime: I'm crushed by weight of opinion and sarcasm ...
LibertarianBill: or the Mason Dixon Line
AGplusone: Probably ... I was just taking into account what's collected annually in funds.
Skansiewic: How bout marilyn Mason
DenvToday: Anybody old enough to remember Mason Reese?
TAWN3: That's Manson
LibertarianBill: thats Manson
siannon prime: Stan, now yer talking! :-)
SageMerlin: You have to match the model to the project. This is a membership model. The focus should be on generating members, and the members generate the funds.
Skansiewic: Thanks.. I knew that... it was a joke...
BPRAL22169: I can think of three things we might do with external funds -- (1) scholarships; (2) promote space (3) fund the Long Range Foundation. Any of these appealing? What have I missed?
SageMerlin: David, why do you make me do these things.
DenvToday: Bpral, what about organizing Heinlein groups on campuses?
AGplusone: Go to people who know is my motto, how can anyone trained by Zim do otherwise?
LibertarianBill: errr... lets not everextend ourselves at first.
BPRAL22169: Denv, that falls under the general topic of "local chapters," which we haven't discussed yet.
DenvToday: Got it.
SageMerlin: All right, all right. Line up to the left with your proposals. Submit them to me double spaced and with perfect grammar and punctuation, and I will return all with a feasibility grade.
AGplusone: So, the major point is, generate the membership (if you build it) and the membership will generate the funds (they will come) ...
SageMerlin: (It was a joke.)
Skansiewic: campuses is a good start but the target needs to be younger .. say junior high..and High school teachers and libraries
LibertarianBill: If we promote HEINLEIN, we promote all these things, BillP
ddavitt: Extend the book swap
DenvToday: Since the invention of the spell-checker, I am fearless.
SageMerlin: A way to get started.
ddavitt: Really get out there and find those cheap used books and give them to the people who need them
PashaMor: doesn't it bother you that you don't have a goal. i mean - if you don't have one, just stay as you are until something will pop up.
SageMerlin: Start a whisper campaign.
siannon prime: I have to go - is everyone fairly OK with what I'm doing, and how I'm doing it? If not, please tell me on email and offer alternatives.
BPRAL22169: There is something I hesitate because it appears self-interested: get the Journal into college and university libraries.
PashaMor: don't MAKE yourselves THINK of one. it must be a NEED for you to fill, fot you to exist.
LibertarianBill: spell checkers will byte you in the ass, Denv. TRUST me on that one.
SageMerlin: There's a bunch of nuts on the internet looking for the oldest original first editions of Robert Heinlein's works and are paying outrageous amounts for them.
LibertarianBill: Why, Sage?
SageMerlin: A few plants in the right media outlets, and people will stream toward us
BPRAL22169: I know -- I have to fan myself at some of the prices on EBay
DenvToday: Bill, I do trust you. Implicitly and explicitly.
LibertarianBill: Are the words any diffeent?
TAWN3: Get all RAH stuff into libraries and schools Bill, so, not self interest
Skansiewic: Sage, why are they nuts?
SageMerlin: Some waving books to sell, and others wanting to buy them....creating a market that doesn
ddavitt: Bill, you push the Journal; if it's for profit you have a right to promote it, if it's for a love of Heinlein you should push it twice as hard
AGplusone: I wouldn't worry a bit about that Bill, the society, god bless it, will outgrow the journal and all of us very quickly if it takes off ... l'audance, toujours l'audance ... or however it's spelled.
BPRAL22169: Well -- no profit yet, so I guess it's still okay!
SageMerlin: David, stop cursing in French.
SageMerlin: I hate when you do that.
SageMerlin: How many people here actually own web sites?
SageMerlin: I mean working business sites.
DenvToday: General Patton has entered the room.
AGplusone: "incidental effect" is what lawyers call that ...
siannon prime: G'night all!
RWLLaguna: "Own" - no. Run? Sort of.
LibertarianBill: <--- me. It's under construction.
ddavitt: Night jani
AGplusone: Night Jani
RWLLaguna: G'night Jani!!
DenvToday: Night Jani.
dwrighsr: Define 'working business site'
siannon prime has left the room.
AGplusone: and thank you for starting that thing!
SageMerlin: Something that makes money.
TAWN3: Bye Jani
BPRAL22169: Give me a couple of weeks and ask me again.
AGplusone: I think Ogden may ... JPOgden
Skansiewic: I have a job for making money, I do web stuff for fun.
SageMerlin: Point is.....the first thing is to create a button that points to our site, and get that button onto as many websites as we can. Instant membership campaign.
ddavitt: The journal and all the academic papers are a big help in giving the Society a sound basis, a rationale for why we are bothering ewith this particular author
Skansiewic: and I do web stuff at my job.
SageMerlin: Does one need an excuse to love something?
AGplusone: yes, a good point Jane, which is why we have all under an umbrella ...
ddavitt: We can point to them and say; look; there is a legitimate literary value in the books over and above entertainment
PashaMor: yes - if he is basing a siciety on it
SageMerlin: I am struck dumb
PashaMor: sorry - i guess i misspeled if
ddavitt: But do your fingers still work? <g>
PashaMor: forget it
LibertarianBill: No probblem
LibertarianBill: heh heh heh
AGplusone: The first rule for any society is "membership" "membership" and "membership" when you stop growing you die ...
Skansiewic: I think a good idea, if it hasn't been suggested already, would be reaching out to partner with the libertarian groups seeking to educate.
LibertarianBill: Isn't that the fed. government's motto, AG?
LibertarianBill: Yes! Yes! Skan
TAWN3: Yes Skan
DenvToday: Skan, absolutely.
LibertarianBill: MOst libertarian newsgroups would add it to their links, of course.
TAWN3: Yes Lib Bill, the Fed Gov. does seem to think like that
AGplusone: It's not a bad idea, Stan ... and several people are bring that up ... yes, but it's true, ain't it? Today, Germany! Tomorrow, Der Welt!
Skansiewic: well I guess we're all libertarians here.
AGplusone: 'sorta' <g>
ddavitt: Forgive me but were heinlein's ideas compatible with present day libertarian thinking?
LibertarianBill: Heinlein is a small "L" libertarian and is widely respected by party members.
RWLLaguna: In sentiment if not affiliation.
DenvToday: Skan, it's almost part and parcel of being a RAH nut.
LibertarianBill: Most of the sentiments, yes, Jani.
LibertarianBill: Anti-gun control.
ddavitt: I really don't know enough about that to be able to comment..Jane!
SAcademy: Robert's books have always been very popular in Germany.
ddavitt: Don't mention guns!!
LibertarianBill: Expanded Universe is almost a Libertarian manifesto.
Skansiewic: yes.. small l libertarian not big L
AGplusone: Jani-siannon prime; Jane-ddavitt ...
DenvToday: Well, I must bid you all good-night.
Skansiewic: and the moon is a harsh mistress is a libertarian manifesto.
DenvToday: See you next time.
LibertarianBill: Most libertarians are into Ayn Rand.
ddavitt: Not all the fans think the same way on all the issues...whish is why i think we have to tread carefully
AGplusone: G'night, Denv ... thank you.
DenvToday: Skan, very true. Nearly a blueprint for revolution.
DenvToday: Night David. Thanks.
RWLLaguna: Goodnight Denv!
DenvToday has left the room.
Skansiewic: yep all you need to finish the blueprint is an intelligent, sentient computer
AGplusone: Just remember, "I'm (always) lookingfor a couple volunteers what don't owe me no money
LibertarianBill: I was turned to libertarianism by Expanded Universe. I learned what the LP actually WAS somewhere else, but the IDEAS became my own after reading EU.
LibertarianBill: night Dev.
RWLLaguna: Anything I can do, David, I will.
BPRAL22169: Ayn Rand made me an anarchist.
Skansiewic: Oddly enough, I was turned to libertarianism by readint the bill of rights.
SageMerlin: David, remember that double saw buck you sent me? I am afraid I don
SageMerlin: 't qualify
AGplusone: Twenty bucks?
ddavitt: "She's a good sport....'
Skansiewic: personally I prefer the terms minimalist and rational anarchist to the term libertarian. because of some of the emotional weight people hear liberal in libertarian
SAcademy has left the room.
LibertarianBill: Did RAh read Ayn Rand? I would guess he did? But I would image he came to his viewpoints through basic common sense, midwestern upbringing and military experience, not through a single book or philosopher.
Skansiewic: I keep trying to put an e between the i and the a of libertarian
AGplusone: I agree with you Will
BPRAL22169: He read Rand -- said he was such an individualist it made Rand look like a pinko.
PashaMor: what's a "pinko"?
TAWN3: Yes Bill, he did, to Scxhulman
LibertarianBill: I dont embrase the term "anarchist" I think any type of anarchy goes too far. Libertarians, need to pull back away from that sort of rhetoric. It scares people and doesn't help the cause.
PashaMor: oh, ok
TAWN3: the opposite of a blueo
BPRAL22169: no, it's just a girl-o versus a boy-o
LibertarianBill: we are all pinko on the inside-o.
Skansiewic: I"m not pinko on the inside-o I'm green-o
LibertarianBill: green? Having a trouble with gamma rays?
RWLLaguna: Some ET in the lineage, Skan?
Skansiewic: Just a little...
ddavitt: I have to go and put Eleanor to bed now; see you all soon. So what's next? Coventry and Misfit?
AGplusone: I'm going to be a little silent for a bit. Have to clean out my mouse jam .... those two, Jane
BPRAL22169: We've got half an hour in the schedule - how about a whip-round for any last minute remarks.
ddavitt: In 2 weeks?
BPRAL22169: Mouse jam -- yumm!
SageMerlin: Why do I get the feeling that people are drinking when they are in these meetings?
AGplusone: yes, put me last Bill ...
ddavitt: Coke only...
Skansiewic: Dew here
BPRAL22169: Tawn, do you want to start off? you can be excused becauseyou're on the board, if you want.
ddavitt has left the room.
RWLLaguna: Cappuccino and Tea here.
PashaMor: makes you pee all the time
PashaMor: cappuccino - i mean
Skansiewic: most fluids have that effect
BPRAL22169: Final comments?
BPRAL22169: Points you want to get across?
TAWN3: You mean last minute remarks Bill?
TAWN3: Let me think a minute
BPRAL22169: Ok - Stan, how about you?
TAWN3: No. not at theis moment
LibertarianBill: I want to evis the idea of giving a member the authority to respond for the group when Heinlein is mentioned in a nagative (or even a positive) way. We want to encourage the reading or Heinlein? If we let critics get away with calling him a facist in the mediam we are not serving the cause. An official letter to the editor on Heinlein Society letterhead carries more weight.
Skansiewic: I don't have any coherant comments
LibertarianBill: I want to "revisit" the idea ...
BPRAL22169: When has that stopped anyone before, hmmm?
LibertarianBill: "encourage the reading OF Heinlein" .... grrrrr.
TAWN3: Actually, Bill, stated that way, it IS a good idea.
TAWN3: Lib Bill
BPRAL22169: Bring it up at a board meeting -- I can't think of any particular section it would be aimed at. PashaMor? you're up.
SageMerlin: There you have to be very careful. A spokesperson commits a group to a position, will they or won't, and once done, it can't be undone.
TAWN3: True Sage
BPRAL22169: People do seem to disappear for these things, don't they?
SageMerlin: Besides, who you get to say it is more important that what's been said.
BPRAL22169: Anything to add LibB?
Skansiewic: encourage reading of age appropriate Heinlein, not that I"m into censorship, but suggesting friday, or time enough for Love, or Stranger to your 13 year old cousins parents could hurt the cause.
SageMerlin: If Tom Cruise says it, you get one response. If Bob Dylan does it, you get another.
TAWN3: How about the "Editor of the Heinlein Journal" ? :-)
SageMerlin: Useless. Honing his own scabboard
BPRAL22169: Well, I did that with the Levinson thing a couple of years ago.
BPRAL22169: I'm afraid to a certain extent it only encourages print journal: you go out for controversy, and you get it.
SageMerlin: In our situation, you need a spokesperson who already had recognized name value.
SageMerlin: Charlton Heston, maybe.
LibertarianBill: well, I don't think a spokesman can committ a person to anything simply by making a "rapid response: to an insepid columnist who called Heinlein a fascist.
AGplusone: It is useful, however, to have a group, section, individual, etc., bring such statements that are made to the Society, or Board, for appropriate action ....
PashaMor: sounds about right
SageMerlin: No, The NRA has him under contract
Skansiewic: Maybe we can lease him from them
RWLLaguna: David Gerrold?
AGplusone: that is something we could and should do ... even if the appropriate action is ignore the idiot ...
SageMerlin: Wrong, Bill. Very wrong. Ihave seen organizations destroyed that way.
LibertarianBill: In fact, such responses could almost be boilerplated, and mailed out in a moment's notice.
SageMerlin: Does anyone remember what Ike said about Nixon when he was asked what Nixon had contributed to his administration.
Skansiewic: Organizing a set of canned responses would be good Bill
SageMerlin: He said, Not off hand, but if you give me a week I might be able to come up with something.
SageMerlin: Or words to that effect.
TAWN3: Eisenhower hated all competitors, Patton, etc.
AGplusone: But Sage is right ... if you get into pissing contests over everything ... you alienate your public quickly ...
SageMerlin: The best way to damn anyone is with faint praise.
LibertarianBill: Like it or not, a president or executive director IS a spokesman. The point is to pick someone we can trust. SDomeone who is NOT known for getting on a soapbox with a person agenda. Obviously, I am not wualified.
SageMerlin: Tawn, if he hated Patton he would have relieved him when Marshall ordered him to.
SageMerlin: Instead, he kept him where he was, and that enabled Patton to turn the tide.
SageMerlin: (In fact, they were very close.)
LibertarianBill: Clinton won his first presidential election because he let NO criticism go unanswered. It is a good policy.
TAWN3: Perhaps I'm thinking of Bradley
BPRAL22169: It's also important to pick the battles that are worth fighting -- this nut who called Heinlein a crap artist has been ignored intoi submission, which is just about right.
SageMerlin: Clinton won his first campaign because Bush didn't campaign
BPRAL22169: No, Clinton won his first campaign because Bush did campaign.
TAWN3: The one he said was "a good staffer", not high praise for a fighter
BPRAL22169: "Recession? What recession?"
PashaMor: stick with the subject - please
SageMerlin: Which subject, and why should I be the only one?
BPRAL22169: I think that was directed to me.
PashaMor: not just you
TAWN3: And me
Skansiewic: Why spoil a perfectly good discussion with a subject
AGplusone: The point is: no "appropriate" response can be made if a society or anything else is unaware of a statement ...
LibertarianBill: Think about the good publicity we could have giotten for the REAL works of RAH if this society existed at the time that damn St movie came out. Journalists are hungry for stories. We could have told people that the movie bore no relation to the real novel.
Skansiewic: I guess I wasn't nearly as offended by the movie as some people,
Skansiewic: I liked it
PashaMor: i didn't
LibertarianBill: So, all the facist imagry didn't bother you?
BPRAL22169: You should have been around for the ST group review.
AGplusone: So, what we do then, Will, is be clever ... and develop a PR relationship that we can use ... slowly by 'good works' and other things ... and pick our fights when we have the ability to do something about it ... which gets you back to 'membership'
SageMerlin: The movie was decent as a film. In fact, what everyone got exercised about were the director's comments about the movie, not just the movie itself.
Skansiewic: The pictures, or the subject matter.
TAWN3: Didn't bother me
AGplusone: Lemme tell you a story, please ...
SageMerlin: Building membership is the key to fundraising and the key to having a demonstrable effect upon public perception.
Skansiewic: I thought the script was a good Interpretion of the story. the casting and visual effects on the other hand.. sure..
PashaMor: go ahead
SageMerlin: David, excuse me go ahead. STORY TIME
LibertarianBill: Bill P ... trust me on this one ... if the ST movies came out at the time when the Heinlein Society existed, the media woduld be looking for a spokesman to comment.
AGplusone: A few years back, an actress named Joanne Van Ark, was chosen by one of the networks to announce the Rose Bowl parade ...
SageMerlin: Listen up. Sarge is gonna say sumpth
SageMerlin: Oh., God, yes.
LibertarianBill: If a person reads a comment that "Heinlein was a fascist. Everyone knows that," then some poor kid is going to be deprived because he or she is not going to pick up the book at the bookstore.
AGplusone: That year, Grand Lodge of California, for the first time in years had build a float, cost a lot of money, and effort, all of which a committee, of which I was secretary raised ...
LibertarianBill: If our job is to encourage readign Heinlein, then it is our duty to respond to criticism on a factual basis. No hysterical name calling. Just present the facts.
TAWN3: Bill, drop it for now.
LibertarianBill: ... err OK.
AGplusone: Float had the shuttle on it, cost a mint, Aldrin had been scheduled to be on it (last minute btw screw up with Nasa precluded that) but anyway as the float came bye the stand on the network Joanne announced she said, "Masons, aren't they the sort who sponsored Jack the Ripper" or some such comment ...
LibertarianBill: oh Lord.
AGplusone: Fraternity went bannanas ...
AGplusone: people wrote from all over saying, we must respond to that ....
Skansiewic: no doubt
MadaNameerf has entered the room.
AGplusone: we decided to ignore it ... but also decided to repeat in each and every lodge the name of the show Joanne was on at the time .... and suggest people write individually to sponsors ....
AGplusone: suggesting that perhaps she was too ignorant to allow to be unrestrained on national tv so long as she was associated with that show, or sponsors.
AGplusone: I dunno what the result was ... and really don't care. Live is too short to bother with idiot statements ...
AGplusone: by idiots.
PashaMor: but that idiot was on t.v
AGplusone: But it's useful to know when they are made and by whom ... then a decision on each individually can be made.
PashaMor: u can't ignore that
LibertarianBill: Your group has millions of members and a mass mailing was a god idea.
LibertarianBill: We don't have a million members.
AGplusone: Sure you can. You don't remember the statement today, do you,
Skansiewic: tactics vary based on your member base
PashaMor: i don't live there - remember?
LibertarianBill: I still say a spokesman responding to fascist commentary woduld encourage reading of Heinlein, which is our goal.
PashaMor: but if it was over here - i would not
AGplusone: Exactly. My point. Your tactics are based on your credibility, your membership base, and your assessment of how effective your tactics can be ...
dwrighsr: It's been bugging me all day since this morning and I finally remembered what it was. I wanted to suggest that the Society try to collect testimonials from people who are or were in the space program and try to find out what influencd Heinlein had on them along with authors who might have been influenced.
LibertarianBill: I am not saying attack the person making the fascist comment.
AGplusone: in that case, our assessment was to officially ignore the idiot ...
PashaMor: well, if u put it this way...
LibertarianBill: I am saying write a letter describing how Heinlein is NOT a fascist, and here is why.
AGplusone: and tell our members to remember what show she worked on ... some stupid Knott's Landing or some such ...
LibertarianBill: The letter itself ENCOURAGES reading of heinlein.
AGplusone: but we told the members to write as individual consumers to the sponsors ...
LibertarianBill: It is an opportunity for free publicity.
AGplusone: not as 'masons' ...
Skansiewic: with a smaller group generally, the most effective tactic is to jump on a soapbox, and calmly coolly state that you aren't whatever the accusation stated
AGplusone: because it was BAD publicity and would have simply repeated the slander to the world
RWLLaguna: And as individual authors of letters to the editor, perhaps?
Skansiewic: but too say it loudly
RWLLaguna: (without mentioning the Society)
LibertarianBill: Actually, I member a TV movie about Sherlock Homes in London searching for Jack the Ripper ... in the movie, there was some sort of Masonic element.
AGplusone: And what we were looking for was GOOD publicity, saying Freemasons have contributed to all the the freedoms of this society ...
BPRAL22169: Gentles and gentiles, I need to leave. Tawn and Dave, will you talk to Adam F about his interests.
MadaNameerf: yeah. talk to me
LibertarianBill: NO1 It should be on the letterhead of the Society! It gives it weight and makes sure it is published! That is how newspapers work1
TAWN3: Which addy is Adam F. ?
AGplusone: Sure, that's a long often repeated slur ... it's where Joanne undoubtedly saw it ...
RWLLaguna: Auf Wiedersehen!
MadaNameerf: Thas me
AGplusone: why repeat it?
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
Skansiewic: sure, not as a formal protest but as a concerned citizen
TAWN3: Adam, what are your interests
MadaNameerf: Life, Liberty, blah blah blah
LibertarianBill: well, I am done arguing. see you all later.
AGplusone: Sponsors don't care about the reply from the Grand Master of Masons of California ... they care about someone who says I used to buy your product but I ain't innymore cause that idiot works for you insulted me.
RWLLaguna: See Ya, Libby Bill!
Skansiewic: good hunting Bill
LibertarianBill has left the room.
PashaMor: that would never happen - david
AGplusone: To continue the round robin ... Pasha?
RWLLaguna: Could we generate enough complaints that they'd even notice us? (serious query)
Skansiewic: Sponsors don't care but the Newpaper editors do
AGplusone: No, we couldn't. That's my assessment.
dwrighsr: David. I don't know. I think that in such a case, BOTH approaches would have been useful. After all, the public heard the comments, but the sponsor approach never gets to them, leaving them with the original comment only.
AGplusone: True, but the point is ... how often does a critic of Heinlein appear on national television ... ignore the ants I say ...
dwrighsr: No. but they do appear on NGs and places where we do have a presence.
MadaNameerf: Boy, did I miss something! What are we talking about?
TAWN3: Lets move on
PashaMor: what is NG (sorry)
AGplusone: unless (1) you have them on national TV, and (2) you have a very authoritive voice to reply with ... which we really ain't got.
Skansiewic: personally I'm anti-TV, I think most of it isn't worth watching and promoting reading is our goall so shouldn't we be focussing on print
RWLLaguna: We could simply make available (via website) our POV... maybe when thinking folks see the slurs, they *may* look for an opposing opinion. Could we realistically do much more?
AGplusone: Its a diversion of resources and time ...
PashaMor: ok, thanks
AGplusone: to do other than what Laguna just suggested
AGplusone: at this point anyway ...
AGplusone: Who's next for the go-around?
AGplusone: Okay, alphabet ... Dave Wright, please go ...
Skansiewic: however if we see a slur in a NG(Newsgroup) that we are individually active in a response is appropriate, and a set of canned, adaptable responses would be useful
dwrighsr: No. nothing more. just that one vagrant thought about testimonials etc.
AGplusone: What vagrant thought?
dwrighsr: wait a sec. I'll repeat it...
dwrighsr: I think the original got lost in the argu...discussion. It's been bugging me all day since this morning and I finally remembered what it was. I wanted to suggest that the Society try to collect testimonials from people who are or were in the space program and try to find out what influencd Heinlein had on them along with authors who might have been influenced.
dwrighsr: "are in or were in"
Skansiewic: well a stanza from green hills was at one point part of public record as read from space.
RWLLaguna: On that topic, I seem to recall David Gerrold being a friend of RAH's and a great fan.
RWLLaguna: Oops, not Space Program, but author. Sorry!
AGplusone: Okay, sounds great ... by the power vested in me by the idiots who appointed me to the Board two days ago, you are hereby authorized to prepare and submit a plan to do just that .... and anyone who has a name to submit to you, your e mail address is firstname.lastname@example.org ... right?
dwrighsr: wait a minute. I had trouble remembering what it was. My short term memory is going to pieces :-)
AGplusone: And call upon me or anyone else to help out ... please?
PashaMor: i wish i could help you guys
PashaMor: i really do
AGplusone: Next up: "Mada" aka Adam ....
AGplusone: what ya got for us, Adam? In the last go round ...
dwrighsr: Was "Mada" swapped to another ship? :-)
dwrighsr: Wasn't ....
AGplusone: any thoughts at all ... a kernel grows into a corn sumtimes, I'm told .... :-)
MadaNameerf: If one thing jumps out at me...
MadaNameerf: about RAH's writing...
MadaNameerf: its that it starts my drive for constant education.
AGplusone: ("Laguna" you're next, git ready, then Sage, then Stan ... )
dwrighsr: No. Kernels become Jenrals.
Skansiewic: I had a chance already
MadaNameerf: Perhaps something to facilitate that for adults as well as scholerships fer young uns
MadaNameerf: Sorry. Thats really vague
MadaNameerf: skip me
TAWN3: Perhaps for development later
AGplusone: I think you want to initiate contact yourself with Jani (siannon prime) and Phillip Owensby PhillipOwe@aol.com and offer to help out ...
AGplusone: that's not too vague to contribute ... it's fine for a start
dwrighsr: You may have hit on a point. There are an awful lot of adults out there who could stand a good dose of RAH.
RWLLaguna: Ain't THAT the truth?
AGplusone: Phil wrote a dissertation on adult education and Heinlein's works ... you'd find it fascinating to read, and Gifford is publishing a for the public version later this year ...
MadaNameerf: I cant wait to read it
AGplusone: with the "academia" bullshit taken out of it
AGplusone: Write Phil. He'd love to hear from you
MadaNameerf: Thanks. I will.
AGplusone: Okay, Sage, you're back up on the box (or in the barrel, take yer pick)
AGplusone: Comments? Questions? (except 'when does this meeting end?')
MadaNameerf: "A motion to adjourn is always in order"
AGplusone: [and the old Army standby: "how do we get out of this chickensh*t outfit?)
Skansiewic: yes but the meeting is only adjourned when all people are gone. since we don't follow robert's
AGplusone: Maybe Sage is down ... anyone else ...
RWLLaguna: (ahem) May I quickly ask for clarification of a couple things?
AGplusone: Please do ...
AGplusone: "if I don't know the answer, I'll find out for you."
RWLLaguna: Thanks... I should contact Jani regarding Education and who? (sorry!) regaring the Website stuff?
AGplusone: me or Tawn3@aol.com
MadaNameerf: Folks. I have to get back to work. Good luck. If anybody wants to reach me, I'm at email@example.com. I promise to read the transcript later. Its been fun.
AGplusone: firstname.lastname@example.org or email@example.com
PashaMor: bye adam
AGplusone: Thanks Adam, nice to have you here
Skansiewic: I guess I'll toss my E-mail out too since I haven't yet. firstname.lastname@example.org
RWLLaguna: 'kay. That's all I had, other than to say thanks to all- it took an RAH ng and Society to remove me from my lurkerdom!
TAWN3: Nice to meet you Adam
RWLLaguna: 'later, Adam!
Skansiewic: Bye Adam, good hunting to you
AGplusone: Very nice to have you all here today ...
MadaNameerf has left the room.
dwrighsr: Log should be available on my website within a couple of hours. Heinlein Page
AGplusone: Anybody else got anything at all ....?
AGplusone: Thanks to you all for coming. VERY good meeting.
AGplusone: G'nite, all ...
Skansiewic: The book fariy was good to me, I have a copy of revolt now
PashaMor: good morning , here
RWLLaguna: "and to all a good night!"
AGplusone: Oz, right?
Skansiewic: and podkayne, and 6th column
RWLLaguna: (or morning as the case may be)
Skansiewic: farewell ya'll
TAWN3: By Stan
AGplusone: Saturday, August 19, 2000, 5:22 PM, PDT, closing log.
Skansiewic has left the room.
AGplusone: Nite Dave
dwrighsr: I got it all. Good night
PashaMor has left the room.
TAWN3: Night Dave
dwrighsr: Night Tawn
AGplusone: I'm saving a back up in case your 'puter blows up between now and then ... Night Tawn
Return to Index
©2001-2010 The Heinlein Society