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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday 06-23-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Aliens In Heinlein

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

DavidWrightSr: Hi Folks.

AGplusone: Hi, David. Nice to receive that sign up today

AGplusone: I cannot tell if Ginny's afk or what

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

AGplusone: Surprised we didn't get any more comment to the post noting your timeline for All You Zombies that I ...

AGplusone: posted on rec.arts.sf.written

DavidWrightSr: I had to miss Thursday nights discussion and am only now getting the log together

AGplusone: did they discuss anything ... I missed it entirely too

DavidWrightSr: I don't know yet, haven't even had a chance to read it. Just processing raw text

AGplusone: been a busy week for me

AGplusone: I'm bogged down in paperwork

AGplusone: Did you get your copy of Patterson's The Martian Named Smith ... ?

DavidWrightSr: I've been working on migrating my major system to a new language, it's rough

DavidWrightSr: It came today, read the first 10 or so pages.

AGplusone: Sounds like taking a voyage to Plymouth Rock ... 'migrating my major system

DavidWrightSr: The version we use is 13-14 years old and I want to modernize it before I retire

AGplusone: hard or easy sledding? the reading, I mean.

DavidWrightSr: Introduction was pure lit type stuff, but fairly straightforward. just getting started on main part

AGplusone: I'm enjoying it, but Bill loses me every third turn at least.

DavidWrightSr: Is Bill an English Prof?

DavidWrightSr: Me too.

AGplusone: No. Just studied a lot.

AGplusone: very well read

DavidWrightSr: He can talk the talk all right. I never knew that such things existed. What does he do?

AGplusone: and I get the feeling Andy Thornton's about the same.

AGplusone: Bill generally works in law offices as a paralegal or works for projects that have something to do with

AGplusone: artificial intelligence

AGplusone: so far as I know

DavidWrightSr: Ah, interesting. I hate these short lines argh

AGplusone: and me

DavidWrightSr: I'm going to have to put my older version back. This new one doesn't cut me off....

AGplusone: Jon's working hard on a test chat room ... he and Francesco have been testing various types

DavidWrightSr: but just tells me after I tried to send it that it was 'too long or complex' ....

DavidWrightSr: and I have to do it all over again.

AGplusone: I get used to it. I know when it's time to stop or go ....

AGplusone: and continue with the thought in the next buffer.

AGplusone: But that's because, imagine it, the old rooms on AOL were even worse.

DavidWrightSr: I try that, but I tend to lose train if someone gets in before I finish

AGplusone: How worse I'd forgotten until Thursday when I attended a chat I was invited to attend about the con

AGplusone: There is a text squirter

SAcademy: Good afternoon. I think that Ward might come today.

AGplusone: Kicked myself when I realized I'd missed the allusions up to now.

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny.

AGplusone: Nice to see Ward if he comes

AGplusone: Dave and I were chatting about this and that

SAcademy: You've been to his site?

SAcademy: Classical Music Guide.

AGplusone: Yes, but I don't know Dave has.

DavidWrightSr: I don't know who we are talking about.

AGplusone: Mr. Ward is a friend of Ginny's, old friend who has known her for years.

SAcademy: Ward Botsford. An old friend of mine. Heinlein fan

AGplusone: Right, Botsford ..

AGplusone: when we were trying to record CD roms from some old tapes Ginny had of RAH'

SAcademy: His wife spends her time looking at stuff on eBay

AGplusone: speeches, Ginny asked him to advise me on who to contact

DavidWrightSr: Did you get them recorded?

AGplusone: Btw, I'll have the Denvention tape, the last one, back Monday

AGplusone: Yes

DavidWrightSr: Great. Are they going to be on sale?

AGplusone: We're considering using them as bonus inducements for membership

DavidWrightSr: Retroactive? :-)

AGplusone: Rather Ginny is considering letting us do it. Of course!

AGplusone: Nice memorial labels ... and all that.

AGplusone: "New" Heinlein!

SAcademy: Well, sort of.

AGplusone: As 'new' as can be ... everyone's excited about it.

SAcademy: Really?

AGplusone: Oh, yeah. Eveyone at that meeting last week said they were. Great inducement.

SAcademy: There is a thunderstorm in the distance. I could have to go offline anyminute.

SAcademy: That's a nice font you're using. What is it?

AGplusone: Is this better with mine, Ginny?

AGplusone: Geneva?

SAcademy: No, the other one is fine. I like it--but what 's it called?

AGplusone: What I was using is called Comic Sans

AGplusone: Comic Sans MS

SAcademy: Where do I find it?

AGplusone: It may be on the scroll bar right above the buffer. Does yours say what font you're using now?

DavidWrightSr: You have to go into 'edit preferences' to see your font and to change it

SAcademy: It's Arial. The default one.

AGplusone: If you see a name, there may be two little triangles going up and down ... oh, it's different I guess

AGplusone: on Clones. We can change ours right away, Like this

AGplusone: Or that

AGplusone: Or this

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, rub it in.

AGplusone: or that, which is Arial Black

AGplusone: never looked to see what the others look like

AGplusone: But any font I've got in my system folder I can use.

AGplusone: Some of which are terrible

AGplusone: But I like this one

AGplusone: it's nice and clear

SAcademy: I found it.

AGplusone: Yes, you did!

DavidWrightSr: That's funny. I tried to change and saw no effect.

AGplusone: well, what do you all think? Wait around to see if anyone shows up?

AGplusone: Do you see an effect if I change? For example here?

DavidWrightSr: yes

DavidWrightSr: I have seen all of your changes.

AGplusone: typewriter "courier"

AGplusone: Copperplate

AGplusone: Book antiqua

DavidWrightSr: I don't see jane or bill online. Oz is there, but is still on AOL only.

DavidWrightSr: Ok REALLY rub it in :-)

AGplusone: It's just flavoring ...

DavidWrightSr: You can change right from the main screen?

AGplusone: Right on the main Screen

DavidWrightSr: Well, I have to do several steps, but haven't found the trick to make it effective.

CMGPublisher has entered the room.

AGplusone: And change color if I wish

AGplusone: Hi,


SAcademy: Gentlemen, this is Ward Botsford. David Silver and David Wright.

CMGPublisher: Hi!

AGplusone: Nice to 'see' you!

CMGPublisher: Likewise!

AGplusone: We got the CD roms done ... most of them, and I'll get the last one this monday

SAcademy: Ward, click on file above, and you will get a pulldown menu with "create shhortcut" on it. Click on t

DavidWrightSr: I did it

SAcademy: Click on that to be able to get back here.

AGplusone: Yep, you did

DavidWrightSr: Is this Ward?

AGplusone: Am I showing up bold, or regular?

SAcademy: Yes, it is.

SAcademy: regular.

AGplusone: :-)

AGplusone: okay, I'll go to bold

DavidWrightSr: Bold is too much for me

SAcademy: Happy making?

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ward. I was just hearing good things from David and Ginny about you

SAcademy: Creat shortcut will put it on your desktop, Ward.

CMGPublisher: Good things? Well that seems promising!

CMGPublisher: Fine.

SAcademy: Would you please boldface?

CMGPublisher: What's the Chat Topic today?

SAcademy: At the top of the writ in place. Second item "B"

AGplusone: Were talking about making movies of RAH's alien characters and whether that could be done

AGplusone: today

SAcademy: I don't know. David?

AGplusone: but not much interest

SAcademy: Bill said he'd come.

AGplusone: Oz should be in shortly too

CMGPublisher: What RAH movies need first and formost is not special effects. It's a grade A script.

SAcademy: Right you are!!!

AGplusone: absolutely ... today I called the 'kid' -- a thirty-year-old who was doing the CDs

SAcademy: But that won't happen as long as they use Neumeier etc.

AGplusone: I'd given him a copy of Glory Road to read because he'd read scifi but never any Heinlein.

AGplusone: He loved it, and told me so, and then asked: Heinlein wrote that movie I saw, Starship Troopers...

AGplusone: so I told him, not Heinlein, that was Verhoeven. Let me give you an extra copy of Troopers I just

AGplusone: happen to have, and you'll see the difference.

CMGPublisher: RAH would have thrown up if he saw that ... that ...

SAcademy: You can say that again!

SAcademy: That scene where the teacher got the trooper pinned by the hand. Ugh

AGplusone: There's so much of a difference ...

DavidWrightSr: Disgusting is too mild a word

SAcademy: well, at least Verhoeven got what he wanted.

CMGPublisher: It's not that it was disgusting so much as the script was written by a bad computer with a stomach

SAcademy: I thhink he stood over the script writers and told them what to do.

DavidWrightSr: You mean. He likes to be 'scorned' by RAH fans :-)

CMGPublisher: problem.

AGplusone: try an invite to Major Oz, please Dave

DavidWrightSr: Done

SAcademy: Well, gentlemen, there aren't an more films being prepared now.

CMGPublisher: I assume you are all AOL folks?

Major oz has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Not me :-)

AGplusone: the question I always use ... no, ... hi, Oz, gotcha

SAcademy: Greetings.

Major oz: AHHHHH, that was a ride through cyberspace. Hi everyone.

AGplusone: I used to have was whether technical ability would be adequate to convey one of RAH's aliens, like

AGplusone: Willis, for example, but ever since I saw R2D2 I've felt it could easily.

AGplusone: We see harder stuff done on TV series these days.

DavidWrightSr: The problem I see with trying to make any move out of Robert's works is that the visual....


CMG is Ward Botsford an old friend of Ginny's Oz

DavidWrightSr: media doesn't leave anything to the imagination and doesn't leave room for ...

Major oz: So......we are sticking with sliens?

DavidWrightSr: forming your own questions and images...

Major oz: Glad to meet you, Ward

CMGPublisher: Am I, thank you.

SAcademy: Sorry I should have made the intro

DavidWrightSr: which was a hallmark of Roberts works

AGplusone: The image I always had the biggest problems with were the Martians of any one of them ...

AGplusone: Willis and the rest in the juveniles were usually depicted pretty well on covers

Major oz: Sliens?.....what are sliens...? Aliens, then is the subject?

AGplusone: Sir Isaac, for example ...

SAcademy: How do you feel about the Mother Thing?

AGplusone: I could never visualize her well

AGplusone: more of an aura ... a presence ...

DavidWrightSr: My image of her is something like a seal with hands

SAcademy: Furry and cuddly

SAcademy: Or the flat cats?

Major oz: say what?

AGplusone: Flat cats were easy ... well described ...

stephenveiss has entered the room.

AGplusone: and when they did the 'tribble' episode on STrek, I recognized them right away

AGplusone: Hi, Stephen ... welcome

Major oz: To me, RAH stressed the "human-ness" of the aliens,

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Stephen

Major oz: whereas most authors stress threir differences.

stephenveiss: hiya

Major oz: yo, stephen......

AGplusone: I always felt the flat cats were little furry pancakes floating about like flying saucers

DavidWrightSr: That was the drawing in one of the books. with little beady eyes

Major oz: I say them as fuzzy flounders

Major oz: sa"w"

AGplusone: yes, the drawings in the books, the juveniles, shaped them in our mind

SAcademy: Exactly right. Judy-Lynn had some made like that with three eyes. About an inch and a hlaf big.

CMGPublisher: L. Sprague de Camp wrote the best very short essay on RAH & his writing.

DavidWrightSr: Aside from 'wormfaces', 'slugs in PM', 'skinnies' and 'bugs'. All of RAH's aliens were friendly

LAdyS122 has entered the room.

AGplusone: The hobgoblins and the horses in Starman Jones, and the big thing that came up and ate uncle Steve in

AGplusone: Time for the Stars

SAcademy: Greetings.

AGplusone: that was scary

AGplusone: Hi, Lady

DavidWrightSr: I knew I'd forget some :-)

LAdyS122: Hi

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

Lenjazz has entered the room.

AGplusone: And the trash pigs that ate was was left over. I thought Starman Jones had the best adventure...

Major oz: Hi, Lady; Hi, Bill

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill. Just started reading your book. Good going.

AGplusone: possibities of all of them, from alien standpoints

BPRAL22169: Yo. thanks.

AGplusone: Hi, Len, LTNC

CMGPublisher: Sorry but I have to go. Nice having meet you all!

DenvToday has entered the room.

Lenjazz: Yeah... been under deadlines...

SAcademy: Hello Bill. CMG Publisher is my friend Ward Botsford. Bill Patterson

DenvToday: Hello everybody!

DavidWrightSr: Now we are starting to get somewhere. I thought tonight might be a bust. Welcome everyone

AGplusone: We're talking about movies and making movies from the stories with aliens

Major oz: Bye, Ward; Hi,Denv

BPRAL22169: Pleased to "meet" you -- I've been to your music site.

CMGPublisher: 'Bye

CMGPublisher has left the room.

AGplusone: bye Ward, thanks for coming

Lenjazz: AG... yes, I saw the meeting notice...

SAcademy: Ward had a dinner appointment with someone.

AGplusone: not many replies ... have you had any experience writing screenplays with 'aliens' Len?

Lenjazz: No, not aliens...

AGplusone: How much does the writer try to define the 'creatures' if you know?

AGplusone: Or is it all left up to 'fx' ...

AGplusone: How would you keep Willis, for example, from coming out looking like a b.e.m.

AGplusone: instead of the basketball with three legs he's supposed to ...

AGplusone: look like

SAcademy: Horrible!

Lenjazz: Ah, Willis... he'd need to be like E.T.

Major oz: Would it not be necessary to develop the character of an alien as much as any other character?

AGplusone: I think with Willis you would have to develop his character

SAcademy: Willis started life as a tape recorder.

Major oz: Is there more to that story............

Lenjazz: On the screen, I think we would have to be allowed to see the world through his eyes occasionally...

AGplusone: how did that happen, Ginny?

AGplusone: I think so, particularly when Jim gets to view the world from Willis's perspective in the cave

SAcademy: Well we had just got one, and Robert used Willis to record anything he heard.

DavidWrightSr: Well there was the 'movie' sequence that Jim experienced through Willis' eyes

AGplusone: Actually named the tape recorder Willis?

SAcademy: No, he didn't go wuite that far.

SAcademy: quite

AGplusone: ... but it became Willis after it was written? LOL!

DavidWrightSr: Was it a Webcor wire recorder? :-)

SAcademy: The tape recorder is long gone, but Willis is still around.

AGplusone: that was my guess too

AGplusone: Trying to remember what they were brand named

DavidWrightSr: My first experience with recorders was around '47 with an RCA wire recorder

SAcademy: It was, and the darned wire kept getting all tangled up.

Lenjazz: Funny, I was thinking Red Planet might be good project for a studio now with new interest in Mars...

AGplusone: There was a little semispherical one on a stand that used tape reels, little thin reels

Lenjazz: ... not to mention the recent Mars flicks were duds.

AGplusone: R2D2 was Willis, sort of, without the fur and standing up higher ...

AGplusone: when he expands some of those nasty little tools when they're trapped in the Death Star

Major oz: re: Mars..........My most believeable alien were the Martians in Double Star

SAcademy: Well, Willis was a "bouncer" ball-shaped.

AGplusone: and R2D2 was a ball atop a cylinder

AGplusone: made of metal of course

Major oz: I always saw them as green traffic cones with arms and legs.

DavidWrightSr: And not capable of growing to a full size Martian :-)

Lenjazz: OZ... okay, I'll bite... what makes an alien "believable?"

Major oz: ......or tenacles, of course.

SAcademy: I think that Willis was covered with fur.

AGplusone: so did I ...

Lenjazz: Willis was furry.

AGplusone: Willis was believable ... to me when I read them. His personality

AGplusone: so too was Lummox

Major oz: believable as developed characters, not in the sense of plausibility

LAdyS122 has left the room.

Lenjazz: ah... believability in that they have human attributes?

AGplusone: And o' Lummie was a dragon so far as I could tell ... without the wings

Major oz: not necessarily

Lenjazz: Then what?

AGplusone: and then she grew arms

Major oz: only that the author (or screenwriter, if an adopter) develop the character so that

SAcademy: More like an alligator.

Major oz: it inspires interest

Major oz: The "kind" of interest is not important, only that it be there.

stephenveiss has left the room.

AGplusone: Both Lummox and Willis were 'funny'

AGplusone: up until it got serious ...

Lenjazz: I'm trying to to think of an example that fits "interest" but doesn't involve some sort of humanity.

Major oz: It can be feared, loathed, loved, etc. but must hold interest.

Major oz: a necessary part of the whole tale.

Lenjazz: As in "Aliens?"

DavidWrightSr: I seem to recall a promotion hook that the publisher used for the juvies,.....

Major oz: sure

AGplusone: as an example of feared, I never had trouble visualizing the horses in Starman Jones

Major oz: that was one bad dude.

AGplusone: Horses with big teeth

DavidWrightSr: that Robert Heinlein always had an interesting alien.

Major oz: VERY well developed

AGplusone: sharp teeth

DavidWrightSr: Very sharp

AGplusone: canivore centaurs

AGplusone: carnivor

Major oz: Niven's puppateers have complex development and, as such, are on-going interests.

Lenjazz: Question -- Aliens were supposedly technologically intelligent... but portrayed as animal like...

DavidWrightSr: I've always been interested in the contrast between the slugs in PM and the ones in Citizen....

Major oz: puppateeers belie that

DavidWrightSr: totally different ... but similar\

Major oz:

AGplusone: /ga Len ... continue the question

Major oz: animal like is, somewhat, a default. It they ain't human what are they -- animals

Lenjazz: Well, RAH seemed to always to have intelligent, non-human aliens doing very human things... as in PM

Major oz: So I discard the "animal like" label and use, simply, aliens.

Major oz: My earlier point.

Major oz: H stressed their human-ness

Major oz: Most others stress their non human-ness

Lenjazz: ... how is it we mostly get animals who are supposedly intelligent doing animal like things now?

Major oz: ?

Lenjazz: What? Animal like = alien?

AGplusone: It seems to say that the 'intelligence' would be human-like ...

AGplusone: what if it was merely incomprehensible?

Major oz: I don't know what you mean by "animal-like"

AGplusone: or the alien objects were incomprehensible to us?

Lenjazz: Animal like = not necessarily intelligent in the human sense.

Major oz: A Kzinti will flick its tail, even though it surpasses human technology.

Major oz: Is that doing something "animal-like"?

AGplusone: The thing in "Alien" the movie just seems to want to kill everything ... and spread


Major oz: and well developed.

AGplusone: the biological imperative

AGplusone: like the bugs of Troopers ....

Major oz: nit wants biological hosts

AGplusone: for incubation

Major oz: yeah

Lenjazz: Yeah... but these Aliens supposedly build space ships -- or their forefathers did. Inconsistant.

Major oz: inconsistent with what?

Major oz: You can be evil and technological

Lenjazz: Inconsistant with being intelligent.

Major oz: Hitler

AGplusone: Whereas, RAH postulated that if they built spacetravel they'd have something in common

AGplusone: in their aims with humans--they'd compete?

AGplusone: or grok until it was time to make another

AGplusone: Fifth Planet ruins

AGplusone: or wait until Gods came flying in and said: don't study space travel no more, like the Jocks?

BPRAL22169: Kzin, singular. Kzinti is plural. Scream and leap.

Major oz: I think it was the genius of RAH that he didn't dwell on aliens. His stories were about the .....

Major oz: ......human condition. He used aliens when it suited him to make his point.

Lenjazz: RAH knew the danger in aliens, or humans for that matter, lie in their use of intelligence.

BPRAL22169: Well, even alien stories are ultimately about human beings.

Major oz: He left it to others to write about bug-eyed mossters.

Major oz: That some of these others did it well does not detract from His aliens.

Lenjazz: Animals were the least of man's worries in space.

AGplusone: I don't remember a bug-eyed monster, mostly I recall species potentially in competition

BPRAL22169: BEM stories are one-note; he liked full symphonic effects.

AGplusone: either on attack, or watching us carefully, like the cops on the beat, or easily

AGplusone: annoyed and maybe swinging a bigger club than we ever imagined

AGplusone: and it was therefore up to us to 'get along'

AGplusone: very unlikely we'd erradicate them

AGplusone: Unless they're long-toothed horses ...

Major oz:

Lenjazz: Now talking Mules... I always like the idea of that.

AGplusone: which they will when they come back to get Sgt. Robert's body

Major oz: Buck.........perhaps my favorite character.

AGplusone: I think, next to Jerry, yes ... I'd want to see Jerry done first.

Lenjazz: Now there's a bridge between man and animal... almost alien like... yes?

AGplusone: But these 'aliens' are enhanced 'animals' ... any difference ... ?

AGplusone: almost man

AGplusone: or maybe, as the title says: "Man"

Major oz: Len, I still can't get a grasp on how you are using "animal".

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

Major oz: yo, oak

OakMan 7111: sorry I'm late

Lenjazz: Oz... as in not having human type awareness, compassion, intelligent aggresson

Lenjazz: my typing stinks...

AGplusone: Is your point, Len, that unless the 'animals' are almost manlike, there's really nothing for a screen-

AGplusone: writer to do?

Major oz: So the Kzin are animal AND alien?

AGplusone: No character development, etc.?

AGplusone: Thinking of "Alien, My Enemy"

Lenjazz: No, but audiences generally have problems with Aliens that are not human like...

KMurphy165 has entered the room.

Major oz: David......that's Enemy Mine

AGplusone: E.g., who really cared how many of the bugs Verhoxers' troopers blasted ...?

AGplusone: which is another reason why his 'satire' doesn't work

Major oz: So that's what they AREN'T. What are they?

Lenjazz: Yep... we don't care about bugs.

OakMan 7111: we weren't meant to, were we?

Lenjazz: Don't think so.

BPRAL22169: I see -- "beasts" versus "animals."

Major oz: You and I know that, Oak, but Verhoxen never figured it out.

AGplusone: According the apologists we were .... good old Doogie Hoosier blasting 'em as POWs was supposed to be

AGplusone: terrible

BPRAL22169: What, you don't care about galactic bug farts as a means of waging war?

BPRAL22169: incidentaly, they can place that scene in the dictionary as an illustration of "bathos."

Major oz: now, now, this isn't afh

OakMan 7111: Well, I care, Bill - especially thge second time the space Navy bunches

OakMan 7111: up to make it easy for the farts to kill everybody

BPRAL22169: yes, close enough for the ships to bump each other.

AGplusone: and an analog to the Nazi's conducting medical experiences on inmates or the Japanese doing the same

BPRAL22169: "But I'm not bitter--"

AGplusone: experiments

AGplusone: but did the 'shoot 'em up audience' think so, heck no.

Lenjazz: It was the intelligent bugs (read: human attributes) that Doogie feared.

OakMan 7111: tough to feel sorry for em when they don't have brains

Lenjazz: Exactly.

AGplusone: and as far as I was concerned, his fooling around with that poor feret was the worst thing in the movie,...

Major oz: Intelligence is NOT a uniquely human attribute (in the SF world)

AGplusone: because I didn't care about the bugs at all.

AGplusone: A feret I can see as a human pet, mistreated.

Lenjazz: Worst thing in the movie was what's her name's silly grin.

OakMan 7111: she didn't have brains either

OakMan 7111: on the other hand, as Ginny has said, the movie sold lots of books so some folks may have seen the

OakMan 7111: light

AGplusone: That was a feret that sociopath was experimenting on in the beginning, wasn't it?

Lenjazz: Remember stobor in... oh my God, I just realized what the acronym for Tunnel in the Sky is!!!

AGplusone: lol

Lenjazz: How did miss THAT?

OakMan 7111: LOL - tell him what the original name was

Major oz: I gotta run, folks. Leaving Mon morn for a reunion / fishing trip. Back in late July/early Aug

OakMan 7111: Bye Oz - keep your powder dry

AGplusone: School house in the sky

Major oz: Gotta clear the phone lines.

AGplusone: See ya, Oz

DavidWrightSr: You mean 'School House in the Sky'

DavidWrightSr: :-)

Lenjazz: LOL!

Major oz has left the room.

AGplusone: even better, eh?

Lenjazz: Ginny knows this?

Lenjazz: Is someone pulling my naive leg?

DavidWrightSr: Len. Don't feel bad. It was 25 years before I realized that tanstaafl was an...

OakMan 7111: nope

DavidWrightSr: acronym, TANSTAAFL and not a foreign word

AGplusone: she's asleep now ... I suppose, afk

OakMan 7111: She knows

AGplusone: but I doubt that she'd missed it after all these years

AGplusone: what with John Thomases, and raising John Thomases

Lenjazz: Was tunnel really names school house in the sky? Seriously?

Lenjazz: named.

AGplusone: Dead serious

Lenjazz: As the kids say, KEWL!

billdennis2nd has entered the room.

billdennis2nd: Hello folks

OakMan 7111: hi William

billdennis2nd: I almost missed the chat!

AGplusone: Hi, Bill ... Farmer in the Sky was about the 'fits' Bill Leamer had ... and didn't

AGplusone: until he was broken down like the stone and recombined into fruitful soil

AGplusone: [or at least that's my theory, and I ain't admitting I'm wrong]

billdennis2nd: Thats the spirit, David.

billdennis2nd: It's a sign of weakness.

Lenjazz: Does anyone know if Rick Smolan did anything with the rights to Tunnel?

OakMan 7111: I hope Jane never tells the libraries she'd like to place TITS there...

SAcademy: Yes. He owns it now. He's looking for financing.

billdennis2nd: I reread tunnel for the first time since I was in grade school. It was like I had never read it before

billdennis2nd: I have come to the conclusion Tunnel would make a hell of a movie

AGplusone: [actually I'm really proud of that little metaphore I think I discovered]

Lenjazz: Ah, thanks. I had heard he bought the screen rights... did he write the screenplay?

SAcademy: He's planning to oversee everthing that's done himself, and keep it true to the book

billdennis2nd: I met a four once. I would have asked her out, but I was holding out for at least a six.

OakMan 7111: ?

billdennis2nd: "met a four" = metaphore. get it? hahahahaha

OakMan 7111: :'(

Lenjazz: That's great news. Tunnel deserves great treatment.

AGplusone: urk

billdennis2nd: bad puns are my specialty

SAcademy: The trouble is that no one wants to back him because he hasn't made a movie before.

OakMan 7111: What is his budget

AGplusone: If Tunnel was kept 'true to the book' there

SAcademy: I don't have any idea.

Lenjazz: I understand Rick's problem. I've had a script optioned, but producers are wary of first time scribes

billdennis2nd: That's the trouble. Hollywood NEVER keeps things true to the book.

AGplusone: would be few ways to make the beasts human like ... and the stobor would be scary, like the maribunta

AGplusone: in that Heston movie a couple generations back

AGplusone: the jungle ants

billdennis2nd: The stobor could easilly be done via CGI

OakMan 7111: Omega Man or Planet of the Apes?

AGplusone: no, before then

Lenjazz: Rick's main problem will be keeping that creative control... every producer has his 2 cents.

AGplusone: explorers in South America ... ants start coming on a migration ...

billdennis2nd: I think I saw that movie on Turner Movie Classics

AGplusone: nothing stops them ... Heston ends up making a stand ... burns up his furniture, a la Cowperstown, etc

billdennis2nd: Has "Destination Moon" ever appeared on TMC or AMC?

SAcademy: Sure, even the banker on DM was writing script changes.

billdennis2nd: I gotta say it "Cowperstown" is a great name for a city.

AGplusone: Heston owns a plantation ... rich ... ain't going

AGplusone: everyone else runs

AGplusone: Ava Gardner I think was female lead

billdennis2nd: I saw "angry Red Planet" last night on AMC. What a lousy movie.

Lenjazz: I wish Rick the best... he'll need an independent company with dollars...hard to find.

OakMan 7111: I saw the last ten minutes - what a lousy movie

SAcademy: Aren't they all loust?

billdennis2nd: You would think with Starship Troopers being a hit, he would be able to find financing.

billdennis2nd: That may be the only good thing to come of that movie.

AGplusone: refering to the one with the lead actor the one played "Iceman" in the Cruise movie

billdennis2nd: There are a lot of good science fiction movies out there. It angers me that the only ones they repeat

billdennis2nd: are the "campy" ones.

billdennis2nd: No. That is "Red Planet.".

OakMan 7111: The good ones may still be selling on casette

billdennis2nd: I am refering to the one done in the 40s or 50s I think.

BPRAL22169: I think that was just Red Planet; Angry Red Planet was a 50's movie.

Lenjazz: Tunnel is a smaller, human story... not big bug, FX pic.

OakMan 7111: I think you can still buy Forbidden Planet, for instance

billdennis2nd: Angry Red Planet's "mars" scenes are with overbearing red background,

billdennis2nd: I love Forbidden Planet.

billdennis2nd: Star TRek owes to much to Forbidden Planet.

OakMan 7111: And FP owes it all to Shakespeare

billdennis2nd: Tunnel has some heavy special effects, action scenes, though.

Lenjazz: The interesting thing about Tunnel, is I think it migh play very well to gen-x and gen-y crowd...

Lenjazz: ...if it were pitched properly.

billdennis2nd: Everything owes much to Shalespeare.

AGplusone: I think it would too ....

AGplusone: it's adventurous

OakMan 7111: Is their attention span long enough?

AGplusone: it has some good characters ... lots of young faces

AGplusone: some sub plots

AGplusone: that could be exploited

billdennis2nd: I doubt they even teach much Shakespeare anymore.

AGplusone: politically correct cast

billdennis2nd: TRue, David.

AGplusone: even a sister-soldier that would appeal to the fems

Lenjazz: Tunnel is about young people discovering themselve and make huge political statements, amidst action!

Lenjazz: still lousy typist.

billdennis2nd: Money interests don't give a flying rat's ass about political statements.

Lenjazz: The woman are as tough as the men (Tomb Raider)....

AGplusone: exactly ... play it as an upbeat counterstatement to that Golding thing

Lenjazz: Guns aren't as effective as brains and knives...

AGplusone: Sure, Carolyn is tougher, and Jackie is smarter

billdennis2nd: OK, want to play dreamcasting?

billdennis2nd: Rod=?

Lenjazz: Heroes can beat up and STILL WIN!

billdennis2nd: Jackie=?

Lenjazz: can be beat up and still win ... geez...

OakMan 7111: I thought you were just being PC, Len

KMurphy165 has left the room.

AGplusone: And you could play suspense with "who be da Stobor?"

AGplusone: a la Freddy Kruger ....

Lenjazz: No... if Rick didn't already won Tunnel, I'd be writing it right now instead of a cyber-porn thriller

OakMan 7111: Oh yeah - do Stobor always through their eyes - never see them

OakMan 7111: only the fear in the eyes of those they attack

billdennis2nd: I still think Stobor should be a name of a Vulcan on Star Trek.

AGplusone: Exactly ... maybe it was the Stobor that got the guy with the dog first off

AGplusone: Johann

Lenjazz: At least not see the stobor for awhile... like the critters in Pitch Black.

AGplusone: Yes.

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: Yo Sean

AGplusone: Just the body going down and "crunch, crunch, crunch..."

SAcademy: Hello

OakMan 7111: and the whimper of the dog

Gaeltachta: Yo.......

billdennis2nd: Howdy Sean.

AGplusone: GMTA I was thinking whine

AGplusone: and a big death squeak!

Lenjazz: Remember how long it took to see the shark in Jaws. All we saw were the results of its presence

Gaeltachta: Hello all, SA, Bill, Jon, David..........

AGplusone: or squeal

AGplusone: Hi, Sean

OakMan 7111: Bill Stobor is probably a Dragon Rider

Gaeltachta: Today is Alians and movies?

Gaeltachta: Aliens......

AGplusone: yep ... we're thinking on Stobor ...

AGplusone: slurp, slurp ....

Gaeltachta: Good topic........ what are we thinking?

Lenjazz: Anyway... got to get back to detectives, murder, and web cam girls... have fun everybody.

OakMan 7111: and David is really getting into it

Lenjazz: Bye.

OakMan 7111: bye Len

Berllan5UD has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Bye

Lenjazz has left the room.

Berllan5UD: hi all

AGplusone: Hello David Tibbetts!

AGplusone: LTNC

billdennis2nd: brb

BPRAL22169: Revolving door here.

Berllan5UD: thanks for invite. not stop long. off to bed

AGplusone: Wales is what AM now in the morn?

AGplusone: They've just woken up in the land of Oz ...

Gaeltachta: Nup...... I'm 8.30 am now (sunday)

OakMan 7111: I want to get the stage rights for "The Long Watch" - write a one-man play

AGplusone: what makes you think I wake up before noon on Sunday

AGplusone: have to go to mass if I get up earlier ...

OakMan 7111: the time Board meets are scheduled for makes me think it

AGplusone: Gaeltachta: I would love to see a script for Tunnel. I guess one is in development SA?

AGplusone: What do you think about aliens and movie development for RAH works, Dave ...

OakMan 7111: Although its fun to read David whimper piteously about not having had breakfast

SAcademy: I don't know. Maybe.

Gaeltachta: I've been on a long walk and had scrambled eggs already.

OakMan 7111: Kangaroo eggs?

SAcademy: LOL

Gaeltachta: They weren't furry...... so , no :-)

AGplusone: I think Len would love to hook up with Rick Smolan and give it a shot.

SAcademy: No reason not to try.

billdennis2nd: Sean, if it's so early Sunday, why aren't you in chruch? ;-)

AGplusone: The other possibility I'd love to see made is Starman Jones ....

Gaeltachta: Not in me Bill.

OakMan 7111: Absolutely, though the basic plot point would have to be reworked

AGplusone: I think if they can make beer commercials with Clydesdales, they can do those meat-eating horses

AGplusone: and the balloon hoggoblins, etc.

AGplusone: And Sam's last stand is a crowd pleaser

OakMan 7111: They do Centaurs in the Hercules TV show

Gaeltachta: Basically with CGI, anything you can imagine can be done now.

AGplusone: The entire thing about the 'deserter makes good' is a sympathetic plot

AGplusone: but someone like Alan Richman would steal the show, if cast as Sam

billdennis2nd: But bad CGI is really noticible.

OakMan 7111: I was thinking Kevin Spacey

Gaeltachta: *If* it's bad, yes.

AGplusone: CGI gets better every TV series

AGplusone: I watched Paying It Forward last night, anyone else see it?

OakMan 7111: Though classic Star Trek will live in my memory - its painful to watch now

AGplusone: Spacey did a good job in that.

OakMan 7111: plywood desks and pictures on the walls

Gaeltachta: Haven't seen it. But I don't see Spacey as Sam. I could be wrong.

AGplusone: There's a certain weakness in Spacey that might translate well into a Sam Anderson, or Roberts, or

AGplusone: Richards, I forget his name, exactly

OakMan 7111: He's a helluva actor - did you see "Usual Suspects?"

OakMan 7111: or "American Beauty?"

Gaeltachta: Yes, he's a great actor....... just seems too modern or something, if that makes sense.

AGplusone: But he'd have to hang around with Dale Dye or somebody to learn to be a marine sergeant

OakMan 7111: too modern for 2356?

AGplusone: Jack Webb pulled it off.

Berllan5UD: well, folks, i'm away. catch you all again sooner rather than later

OakMan 7111: g'bye

AGplusone: He had that same nice softness before Dragnet and the DI

Gaeltachta: Yes, in a way........ But what do I know.

Berllan5UD has left the room.

OakMan 7111: U know more than you pretend to, Sean...but we have ways of making you talk....

Gaeltachta: "I know nuthin'"........

AGplusone: Funny, tho ... there's two types of alien or augmented animal stories

OakMan 7111: "You have relatives in the old country?"

AGplusone: and Len's point before he left was: the ones with human motivations are more challanging

OakMan 7111: ga David

Gaeltachta: In Ireland? Yes, but very distant........ 3rd cousins........

AGplusone: to write about, but we're talking about the animal beasts as making a more salable movie

AGplusone: stobor, and meat-eating horses

OakMan 7111: Campbell once challenged his stable of writers to come up with a totally alien creature that was

OakMan 7111: understandable without being at all human

AGplusone: who came up with what Jon?

OakMan 7111: I think Von Vogt came up with his hunter creature

OakMan 7111: damn, i cant remember the name of the crature or the book

AGplusone: define them please

OakMan 7111: Black destroyer!

OakMan 7111: yes!

AGplusone: inexorable like the Black Death?

OakMan 7111: Story's plot was similar to Alien

OakMan 7111: stowaway creature starts hunting down the crew

AGplusone: Rats--->fleas--->bacilii--->infect humans, humans die ...

OakMan 7111: He was, iirc correctly a telepathic Panther with an IQ higher than ours and a total carnivore

AGplusone: What about the Martians in Wells' story, Bill .... what were they like

AGplusone: War of the Worlds

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of van vogts. 'Voyage of the Space Beagle' also.

AGplusone: They did some Star Trek ones where the other beings were always on such a higher plane than us ...

AGplusone: and remote ... and we were dust under their chariot wheels, unimportant

OakMan 7111: did a quickl lookup - Black Destroyer was serialization of Voyage of the Space beagle

OakMan 7111: creatures name was Coerl

AGplusone: like the Martians in Stranger .... content to 'grok' us, then destroy us when the time was ripe

AGplusone: like Gods from afar ...

OakMan 7111: there were other stories in the Space beagle book. Black destroyer was one of them

DavidWrightSr: I thought so. Sounded familiar, but not by that title

AGplusone: That kind of portrayal has always been impossible ... or rather stilted and phony

DavidWrightSr: Van Vogt went from a low-level threat to a galaxy-wide threat in that book.

AGplusone: like the old Jimmy Stewart Xmas favorite

AGplusone: sending down angels like Mike ...

AGplusone: imagine doing the Glaroon ...

AGplusone: what's he up to ... ?

OakMan 7111: I was fascinated by the appearance of both a Christ analog in Mike and a Mohammed analog in

OakMan 7111: Paul Atreides apprearing within a year of each other

Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: Or meeting the Jock's god, finally, Laz goes in and says: "What do you know I don't ...?"

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: wb Sean

Gaeltachta: I lost my cursor........

Gaeltachta: There it is!

billdennis2nd: I used to be a cursor ... but Mom washed my mouth out with soap and broke me of the habit.

DJedPar has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: I *knew* you would say that!

AGplusone: I'm trying to think of movies when they've portrayed either the Panthers like vanV's

SAcademy: Hello /Denis

AGplusone: or the gods like maybe Steven Kings' effectively

billdennis2nd: Hello Djed.

DJedPar: Hello Ginny... made it.

AGplusone: Hi, dennis

SAcademy: I see that you did.

DJedPar: Hi David

AGplusone: and trying to get a handle on how you'd portray a Martian like the one in Red Planet

AGplusone: Yoda?

AGplusone: Or a Merlin type?'

OakMan 7111: Yoda was the same character Pat Morita played in Karate Kid

billdennis2nd: More like the Vorlon from Babylon 5. Tall, silent, mysterious and wise.

OakMan 7111: only green

OakMan 7111: Gods in SF movies always seem to end up being children playing with us as if we are toys

billdennis2nd: I always saw the Red Planet Martians as tree-like.

billdennis2nd: Sort of like Ents from LOTR.

AGplusone: That new LOTR ought to be interesting to watch

OakMan 7111: In DoubleStar they definitely resemble trees

BPRAL22169: You mean Double Star?

billdennis2nd: Yeah. Maybe that is where I got the idea.

billdennis2nd: I am eagerly awaiting LOTR movie.

AGplusone: Brad just called me, Bill. We'll get together for the set for the library Mon night

OakMan 7111: I picked up the painting of one of the covers of Red Planet, Bill I've got a pic on the website

billdennis2nd: Exactly how many Bills are there who frequent

BPRAL22169: Exellent.

OakMan 7111: You're the nicest

BPRAL22169: Far, far too many.

billdennis2nd: Bill Dennis, Bill Paterson, ?

DavidWrightSr: Too many Bills and too many Davids. Shoot every other one :-)

BPRAL22169: *curtsey*

SAcademy: Will someone please tell Denis how to create a shortcut? I can't do it.

Gaeltachta: Just call everyone Bill....... Makes it easier!

DJedPar: Do I need it with the new Heinlein site?

BPRAL22169: In theFile pulldown menu there's an option for "Create shortcut"

billdennis2nd: "It's the Bill and Dave Show!"

BPRAL22169: It puts an icon onyour desktop.

BPRAL22169: *pffttt*

SAcademy: Thanks.

DJedPar: Ok. Thanks

BPRAL22169: You could put the new site into your Favorites. I don't think a shortcut would do any good.

AGplusone: I'm just a spare Dave ....

billdennis2nd: Shouldn't we all create profiles so we and newbies can keep each other straight?

AGplusone: shoot the other one, he's the trouble maker

OakMan 7111: As far as the website goes, if you are using i.e. I''ll have a button up that will put it in your

OakMan 7111: favorites list

BPRAL22169: There's two of him -- Maikosht as well as Dwrighsr

DavidWrightSr: Split Personality

AGplusone: or we could nominate the one from Wales ...

BPRAL22169: Need two bullets, and that might not be such a good idea -- we'd never see our logs again!

DJedPar: The new site access worked perfectly tonite.

OakMan 7111: Well, thank goodness Ogden is such a rare name. No chance of that being a problem

AGplusone: suggest ten minute break ....

AGplusone: back at 20 past the hour ... water cats?

billdennis2nd: yeah. I need one.

Gaeltachta: Coffee's on...

billdennis2nd: brb

OakMan 7111: afk

Gaeltachta: afk? I probably should know that one?

AGplusone: We've had 13 new members, btw, sign up since last meeting

DavidWrightSr: Away from Keyboard

Gaeltachta: Thanks

AGplusone: to THS's website

AGplusone: and some like Dennis logging in, who were already members, of course

Gaeltachta: How many members all together David?

AGplusone: 40

AGplusone: so it's starting to snowball

Gaeltachta: Great work!

OakMan 7111: David, I switched to a new, faster entry for i.e. users today

AGplusone: and enough blood donors that it's almost time to start the list of honor

AGplusone: that will always help ... I'm amazed as the amount of improvements you put in Jon

OakMan 7111: Barry okayed that - so that should be done tomorrow

AGplusone: looks like Pix may be able to help too

billdennis2nd: back

OakMan 7111: I hope so, did you see my response?

AGplusone: even a blind pig finds acorns

AGplusone: Yes

OakMan 7111: She a really neat it okay to say that?

AGplusone: certainly

AGplusone: I'm trying to talk her into coming up to Philly for dinner

billdennis2nd: I signed up, but I have't received an invoice yet.

OakMan 7111: what?

OakMan 7111: say it isn't so bill

billdennis2nd: It's true.

OakMan 7111: thats not your line, dammit

DavidWrightSr: I was going to ask about the bill. Is it supposed to come after we sign?

billdennis2nd: I cannot tell a lie.

OakMan 7111: ^%*^$%^#$^%!

billdennis2nd: Don't say "bill"... call it an invoice.

billdennis2nd: ;-)

OakMan 7111: Hmpf...Okay, luckily, we have records of such things

OakMan 7111: so I should in short order get to the bottom

billdennis2nd: So how much is it ... $1.95 ?

OakMan 7111: Nope for you it's only $500

Gaeltachta: Does the Society accept credit card payments yet?

billdennis2nd: Are you getting cheaky with me?

Gaeltachta: Or just cheques (checks)?

AGplusone: do you have Amex, Sean?

AGplusone: cheques work

Gaeltachta: Not Amex...... Visa.

OakMan 7111: Nope, but I accept Paypal, sean and could handle it on a pass thru or wait awhile and David will

OakMan 7111: have us set up on PayPal

billdennis2nd: Will you take Diner's Club?

billdennis2nd: ;-)

Gaeltachta: I can do PayPal...... No probs.

DJedPar: The new site is extraordinary. Congratulations are in order. Bravo! All of you.

OakMan 7111: kewl - save it for a little till we get it set up - you can be our first tester

CHASGRAFT has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Ok......

AGplusone: Hi, charlie, how you been

BPRAL22169: I quite agree about the new site.

Gaeltachta: Email me Jon, when it's ready to test.

OakMan 7111: Duh! David we should have an announcement of when the next chat is and what its about on the website

billdennis2nd: I have to say, when I first saw it (after being offline for about six months) my jaw dropped and my m

AGplusone: Any preferences on subject ....

billdennis2nd: mouth watered.

AGplusone: ????

AGplusone: anyone

BPRAL22169: I think we're skipping the next one.

CHASGRAFT: Not too bad. Yardwork, today.

BPRAL22169: It's scheduled over the Westercon weekend.

AGplusone: Ah, that's a decent reason then I suppose.

BPRAL22169: I can't find my calendar, but I think Andy Thornton's is after that.

AGplusone: Gives us more time to work on whatever comes after that.

AGplusone: If you had Andy post it ... then we could start working on it.

AGplusone: What was his subject?

OakMan 7111: I dont think there's a full evening in it, but I wanted to do a comparison between Legion and SiaSL

BPRAL22169: Well -- it's in my calendar . . .

OakMan 7111: sometime

AGplusone: 'Legion'?

billdennis2nd: One of these days, I am going write about similarities in fiction of Heinlein and Philip Jose Farmer.

AGplusone: Lost Legion, ah

billdennis2nd: There are more than one would think.

OakMan 7111: I am having a Senior Moment - Long Novella about three who discover how

OakMan 7111: to makethemselves into supermen?

BPRAL22169: "Lost Legacy."

AGplusone: aka Lost Legacy

AGplusone: The Mark Twain, Ambrose Bierce one ...

OakMan 7111: Yep that's the one. I could make a case for LL being a study for Stranger

BPRAL22169: Here's the entry for July 19: "Friday, Farnham's Freehold, "Gulf,"

BPRAL22169: and Racism." Hosted by Andy Thornton

billdennis2nd: I know that the uncut version of Stranger is dedicated to Philip Jose Farmer,

AGplusone: why don't we schedule that one after Thornton, and see how the guest visits that are hanging go after

AGplusone: that.

Gaeltachta: Sounds interesting Bill.......

BPRAL22169: That's August 2, 4. Jon to host?

OakMan 7111: urgle

Gaeltachta: I think there is something in that......

TAWN3 has entered the room.

AGplusone: great with me

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn

TAWN3: Hi everybody

Gaeltachta: Hi Tawn

billdennis2nd: Farmer and Heinlein were both influenced by Mark Twain. Both authors used Twain as a character,

TAWN3: Sean, david, David, Sa,evryone else!

BPRAL22169: Your issues are in the mail.

SAcademy: Hello Tawn

OakMan 7111: Hi Tawn

billdennis2nd: Of course Farmer to a greater extent in the Riverworld series.

TAWN3: OK, Thanks. I have a few emails to read yet, yu may be one of them.

BPRAL22169: I think it's simpler than that --

Gaeltachta: Did Heinlein use Twain as a character?

BPRAL22169: Farmer was the first SF writer to get away with writing about sex.

billdennis2nd: He appeared briefly in To Sail beyong the Sunset

TAWN3: NotB?

Gaeltachta: Ok.

AGplusone: maybe the character in "If this goes on ... " too

BPRAL22169: Explicitly, I mean.

billdennis2nd: Well, Heinlein wrote about it first. Farmer was more explicit.

AGplusone: the one who dies after the speech about liberty

BPRAL22169: Yes.

BPRAL22169: I think Twain is mentioned a couple of times in "Lost Legacy," isn't he?

AGplusone: I think he is ...

billdennis2nd: I believe so too.

BPRAL22169: Or maybe it was just the notes.

BPRAL22169: When it comes time, tap me for the Lost Legacy notes -- I transcribed them into my computer.

billdennis2nd: Both Farmer and Heinlein wrote about heroic characters, although Farmer dug into their

Gaeltachta: There is a strong "Twain" connection, I agree.

billdennis2nd: inner psyches

AGplusone: I haven't read any Riverworld in years

billdennis2nd: THanks Bill.

billdennis2nd: I interviewed Farmer once... about 15 years ago when I was a student.

BPRAL22169: Was that your topic, WD?

Gaeltachta: I read all the Riverworld books years ago. They were pretty good.

BPRAL22169: I got it wrong - thought it was Jon

TAWN3: Hated Riverworld. No conclusion to any of the boks, like a movie set up for a sequel.

billdennis2nd: There is a Riverworld series in the works, supposedly.

Gaeltachta: The series did conclude, eventually.

billdennis2nd: I read the Riverworld series in one huge chunk when I was in high school.

billdennis2nd: I need to reread them, the first three at least.

OakMan 7111: I think we're doing Legacy in Aug, Bill P - with me as host

BPRAL22169: 'scuse - who is hosting August 2? Jon O or Bill D?

AGplusone: I think I read the first three, said, "That's nice," but never read them again.

BPRAL22169: OK -- that's what I was looking for

BPRAL22169: We should have another author chat thereafter.

Gaeltachta: The ending was quite imaginative (I thought)

AGplusone: Jon O

OakMan 7111: David that was my feeling. the first was great but it just kept going and going and...

billdennis2nd: Farmer's "The Green Odessy" reminds me so much of LL's background story from "The Tale of the Twins w

billdennis2nd: who weren't

AGplusone: Sounds like another topic Bill ...

billdennis2nd: In that both are tales of an escape from slavery and the protagonist's relative desire to protect

billdennis2nd: they sired

AGplusone: opportunity to finally appreciate Farmer

BPRAL22169: There's a lot of material there -- might be difficult to manage a chat on that topic.

billdennis2nd: I don't think Farmer shared Heinlein's politics or world view.

AGplusone: narrowly defined ... we've done worse ... and might discover something or the other

billdennis2nd: I don't think Farmer is a good chat topic, cause not all Hainlein fans have read farmer

OakMan 7111: Bill sdidnt you say once that you talked to Farmer?

TAWN3: Read his tarzan book, definitely not Heinlein!

SAcademy: I'm sure of that.

BPRAL22169: Sure.

billdennis2nd: Yes. It was a long time ago. And the interview never saw print.

AGplusone: It's like any guest author ...

OakMan 7111: Do you still have it? Why don't you post it?

BPRAL22169: Oh, we both have, then. he was living in Scottsdale when I was involved in local SF fandom

BPRAL22169: in Phoenix

billdennis2nd: Ginny, have you met Farmer? I am wondering about the dedication to farmer in Stranger.

AGplusone: like the Zenna Henderson interview?

BPRAL22169: Yup. That actually got published, though.

billdennis2nd: I don't have a transcript, but I do have the tape sitting around somewhere.

CHASGRAFT has left the room.

SAcademy: Yes, I've met him and Bette.

billdennis2nd: Farmer and I both live in Peoria. I was at his home for the interview. I was too young and foolish to

billdennis2nd: appreciate it, though.

SAcademy: What about that dedication?

SAcademy: Robert admired his work

billdennis2nd: Well, although I think there are some interesting simularities, it seems that Mr. Heinlein and Farme

billdennis2nd: Farmer would have too many difficulties to appreciate each other's work. The dedication

billdennis2nd: was a surprise to me.

AGplusone: The form of Stranger similar to Riverworld ... anatomaic? Bill?

BPRAL22169: To your Scattered bodies Go isn't really an anatomy.

billdennis2nd: I am glad RAH appreciated Famrer. They are No. 1 and 2 on my list.

BPRAL22169: I don't recall noticing it of the others.

AGplusone: Just wondering ... have very little recollection of it.

BPRAL22169: Picaresque

billdennis2nd: The main protagonist of "Bodies" is Sir Richard Burton.

billdennis2nd: Not to be confused with Lix Taylor's ex-husband.

BPRAL22169: Richard Francis Burton

FraSprea has entered the room.

AGplusone: I thought it was more a Picaresque 'journey' novel too

AGplusone: book

DavidWrightSr: Has anyone read 'Two Hawks from Earth' by Farmer?

AGplusone: work

BPRAL22169: It could be done -- it has been done before -- Don Quixote.

billdennis2nd: hmmm.... "The World as Myth" seems to give us the same opportunity as "Riverworld" to print authors

Gaeltachta: The SIASL dedication continues... "Notice: All men, gods and planets in this story are

SAcademy: You mean the original Sir Richard Burton

billdennis2nd: into fiction as real characters.

Gaeltachta: imaginary. Any coincidence of names is regretted."

BPRAL22169: This is the 19th century one, not the 16th century one.

billdennis2nd: Another similarity!

AGplusone: Hi, Fra

billdennis2nd: Sir Richard Burton is another of the rugged indovidualists Farmer and Heinlein liked to write about.

AGplusone: It must be almost 2 AM in Italy

OakMan 7111: Hi Francesco!

FraSprea: Hello everybody

billdennis2nd: Well, now that I have started an interesting topic, I must leave.

SAcademy: Hello Francesco

Gaeltachta: Hi Francesco.

billdennis2nd: Howdy FRancesco. Bye.

AGplusone: We all have to leave in about 15 minutes

billdennis2nd has left the room.

AGplusone: maybe we could talk some day about the form of Stranger and why it isn't a novel

AGplusone: one of the more interesting parts of your book, Bill

AGplusone: Find ourselves looking, goodness sakes, at Carlyle and Swift et al.

AGplusone: scary

TAWN3: Have you already gotten a copy of Bil's book David?

AGplusone: Yes, got here yesterday

TAWN3: Ah!

TAWN3: I saw the publishing date was moved up.

AGplusone: but I saw it in a slightly different form ... once before

Gaeltachta: My copy will take awhile to get here :-(

OakMan 7111: If Gulliver's Travels can become a hit miniseries, and the Oddessy, why not Stranger?

FraSprea: Mine won't be here till next week (Jim said)

AGplusone: why not. Saw O Brother last night too. Last night was watch rented movies

AGplusone: Oh Brother is a take on Oddessy

Gaeltachta: Any good? I'm watching it tonight.

OakMan 7111: did not know that

AGplusone: believe it or not ... I enjoyed it

Gaeltachta: My Dad recommended it.

AGplusone: amusing and kinda fun to watch

Gaeltachta: He mentioned the Oddessy connection.

OakMan 7111: I recently saw the Kirk Douglas movie

OakMan 7111: that was terrible

AGplusone: which one?

OakMan 7111: Ullyses

TAWN3: Why didn't you like the Kirk Douglas movie Jon?

TAWN3: I loved it.

OakMan 7111: too many dubs

TAWN3: Oh.

AGplusone: It's fascinating the way authors go back and file serial numbers off ...

OakMan 7111: Dougllas was fine, so I shouldn't say terrible, but the other voices were all false

TAWN3: I vividly remember the scene when he confronts the courtiers. Had a impresion on me as a youth.

AGplusone: Mowgli + the New Testament + Gulliver + what else in Stranger?

OakMan 7111: Shakespeare did that for a living - file the numbers off of Jew Of Malta and come up with

OakMan 7111: Merchant of venice

AGplusone: The bow stringing is the greatest resolution of suspense scene in literature

AGplusone: You say: at last!

SAcademy: Well there just aren't any new stories!

TAWN3: Yes!

TAWN3: Whips of the rags, and walla (sp)

AGplusone: And then you settle back for the boys to try to get away ....

TAWN3: :-)

AGplusone: and, guess what, they don't make it.

TAWN3: I remember it vididly to this day. Burned into my memory for some reason. A wrong righted.

AGplusone: Yes.

OakMan 7111: dont get me wrong - I loved it when I first saw it

TAWN3: Arrow through all the ax heads and that's all she wrote!

AGplusone: You can imagine the bard singing it, suspense, suspense, then finally .... end of the line.

fgherman has entered the room.

TAWN3: One of myall time favorite scenes for some reason.

TAWN3: Lost my bold.

SAcademy: Nice to see you Felicia

OakMan 7111: want some of mine?

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia

OakMan 7111: Hi Felicia

TAWN3: Yes, plase.

fgherman: Hello all

TAWN3: Hi Felicia.

AGplusone: just about over, believe it or not we were just talking about the bow-stringing

OakMan 7111: right click in the input box and you should get a chance to put it back

fgherman: Better late than never

AGplusone: scene in Oddyssey

fgherman: One of my favorites

AGplusone: a word I can never spell

AGplusone: I think everyone who's actually read through it feels that way ...

fgherman: Those suitors got what was coming to them

OakMan 7111: But it's best in the original Klingon

TAWN3: Well, it is the culmination of the entire book, isn't it?


AGplusone: sure was ...

TAWN3: So is Shakespeare!

BPRAL22169: Certainly a possibility-- when enough people have read it. maybe in the fall?

AGplusone: I think we might ...

AGplusone: well, 'tis time to say good night. David there's an illusion to someone named Leeper you should cut,

OakMan 7111: Legend actually has a lot to do with the King Must Die - he who marries the Queen is the King, until

AGplusone: as well as my blind pig comment.

OakMan 7111: there's a problem or 7 years have passed

AGplusone: Please before we got started.

AGplusone: about AOL powers and stuff

fgherman: Just think... Homer's Odyssey as directed by Quentin Tarantino

AGplusone: allusion

BPRAL22169: *Sigh*

OakMan 7111: well, it's time for patches's shot

OakMan 7111: I must go

DavidWrightSr: Allusion to Leeper and a lot of comments the three of us had at the beginning

AGplusone: Hope she's better ... yep.

fgherman: I feel like Capt. Spaulding

DavidWrightSr: ?

AGplusone: Just got to heaven and found the angels unfriendly

fgherman: Hello, I must be going

OakMan 7111: you dont look like Capt. Spaulding...bye

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

fgherman: "How an elephant got in my pajamas, I'll never know."

AGplusone: It may have been the little one in Jerry Was a Man. He might fit.

BPRAL22169: Groucho Marx -- Karl Marx. between them, they define the 20th century.

fgherman: I guess I'll read the transcript to find out what I missed

TAWN3: Lonnon and Lenin?

BPRAL22169: The true Marx brothers...

fgherman: Don't forget Lennon

BPRAL22169: But would that be the Lennon/Lenin sisters?

TAWN3: I have the Lennon and Marx Radio Theatre album tucked away somewhere. Natuional lampoon.

fgherman: *groan*

fgherman: No, Fireside Theater

TAWN3: Been awhile!

TAWN3: :-)

fgherman: "All Hail Lennon & Marx"

BPRAL22169: "The one with the ever-widening hole in it!"

TAWN3: But Fireside was National Lampoon, wasn't it?

BPRAL22169: But it's really true that "Everything you know is wrong."

fgherman: "He's no fun, he fell right over."

BPRAL22169: Firesign Theatre was NOT National Lampoon.

fgherman: I had the terrifying experience of riding an elevator with Phil Proctor & Dave Osman

fgherman: 50% of Fireside theater

BPRAL22169: yes, that would be terrifying.

Gaeltachta: Time for me to go. Hoo roo.

BPRAL22169: You still see Proctor around now and again.

BPRAL22169: on TV, I mean.

Gaeltachta has left the room.

fgherman: I even mad e the mistake of saying, "and here we are"

fgherman: Fortunately, they didn't hear me

TAWN3: OK, if you all say so, been awhile since I listened to it. Like twenty years!

BPRAL22169: "and here we are."

fgherman: *whe*

BPRAL22169: It could have been worse: you could have said "Don't crush that dwarf -- hand me the pliers."

BPRAL22169: Or "We're ALL bozos on this elevator."

fgherman: we were all bozos on that elevator

BPRAL22169: honk-honk.

fgherman: Don't squeze the wheeze"

DavidWrightSr: Folks. I haven't yet finished Thursday's log...

BPRAL22169: OK, gentles, time to go.

AGplusone: okay ... have to go now ... got log, Dave

DavidWrightSr: so I [might] just put it together with this one and publish just the one

fgherman: It's been lovely while it lasted

BPRAL22169: Bad, David, Bad bad.

AGplusone: ?

AGplusone: or need backup?

SAcademy: Nite, all.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah I know

fgherman: no doughnut

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: night Ginny

fgherman: Good night Ginny

fgherman: bye

BPRAL22169: There wasn't much material from the Tursday meeting. We all had trouble concentrating.

DavidWrightSr: Faster than a speeding Jane

BPRAL22169: ciao.

fgherman has left the room.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 08:07 P.M. EDT

DavidWrightSr: Night Folks.

FraSprea: I'l say good bye too, then, night!

TAWN3: Good night Ginny.

DavidWrightSr: Everyone stay and chat if you wish. Good Night

Final End Of Discussion Log

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