Thursday 06-07-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT
The Future World of 2001
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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
It's always fascinating when we arrive in a year immortalised in fiction; 1984 and 2001 being two of the best examples. Generally we fail to match up ( thankfully in some cases) but it's fun to compare.
Most of us can remember 1970 and we are living in the exact same time that Dan was; we had a recent post in April, congratulating Dan on arriving in the future for the second time. However few of the advances that Heinlein described are with us, even those that Dan had in 1970 and of course, he missed a few, notably disposable diapers :-)
I propose we list a few of them ( there are a LOT.....I went through the book last night and noted them down so I can say that Heinlein jammed this story full of throwaway references to futuristic gadgets but, in his usual skilful way he was so matter of fact about it that they slide in unnoticed). Then we can think about if we have them ( my tech knowledge is so non existent that I need help on this !), if we want them and if we're likely to get them soon.
We can also look at what Heinlein failed to predict, not in a smug way as I defy anyone to predict the future world of 2050 and be 100% accurate but in order to speculate about why things took a turn off at an angle that he couldn't foresee.
OK, here are some of the things Dan had in 1970, starting with the back history.
The Cold War had warmed up to actual conflict. Washington was nuked, near miss on Manhattan in what is called the Six Week War. The US was saved by the revival of stock piled troops in cold sleep, an advance that had been around for some decades. Denver is now the capital city ( near to where Heinlein lived at the time of course!). In 1968, a law was passed called "The Gold Reserve Act".
When Dan is discussing the cold sleep, the insurance man uses the phone;
"I didn't hear the rest of the conversation, for he switched on the privacy guard."I can't think of anything that can stop people in the room with you from hearing what you say on the phone today.
The Carlsbad Caverns are used as a giant repository of personal documents; presumably they learned their lesson about storing things above ground during the war.
He has automatic traffic control, though not on all roads.
He invents Hired Girl, Window Willie, Flexible Frank....all inventions that we don't have, certainly not at the stage where you can buy them cheaply and repair easily.
BUT....they still have typewriters. Well, in 1970 so did we... He thinks about inventing something that will empty a dishwasher ( I want one!!) and dustbins that empty themselves.
He notes that his household machine didn't have to answer phones as "A.T & T were already renting a gadget for that. There was no need for him to answer the door either, as most new houses were being equipped with door answers."
If by this last he means intercoms, then yes, we have one on our door, though we don't use it. Not sure when they were invented though.
Belle uses the zombie drug on him; this was invented during the Cold war to combat brainwashing. I hope this doesn't exist and never will....
On to 2000/2001...
The most shocking change is that people wear cerise bell bottom trousers but we'll pass on quickly....while noting that had Heinlein set this fashion in 1970 instead, he'd have been a bit more on target :-)
The main differences are some that Dan himself is responsible for, at least in the field of robots. All his ideas are there in living, breathing, er, well, they exist and are working fine. He himself mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also led to time travel in a serendipitous way.
Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just on the screen. Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I wonder?). pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that awkward folding and rustling.
Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins, dishes keep food hot, mirrors don't fog up, teeth can be regenerated, smog has gone, the common cold is vanquished, phones have view screens.....Venus has a research colony, England is a province of Canada ( no mention of Wales, Scotland and N Ireland though) and France has a king.
So; does it sound attractive?
>So; does it sound attractive?I love it!!!
No-one ever said any of us had to be right, just that we'd thought...before we thought we were right. -- Jani
>On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt <firstname.lastname@example.org> >insisted that the sooth was being spoken here: > >>So; does it sound attractive? > >I love it!!! >Any bit in particular? I forgot, shirts that don't need laundering and "Beardgo".....just what did they do with all the time they saved I wonder?
I am always taken by the way that Dan focuses on improving the lot of the housewife. I don't know if this was more input from Ginny or Heinlein's engineering background making him sensitive to the sheer time wasting, back breaking, mind numbing tedium of housework. He also sets out to help Pete but cats are more traditional; "For old Pete I've built a "cat bathroom" to use in bad weather - automatic, self replenishing, sanitary and odorless. However, Pete being a proper cat, prefers to go outdoors..."
I wonder if the huge industry that is kitty litter was around in any form in 1956? We do have some very luxurious and automated litter trays too, though not quite approaching this description.
...no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep trying.-RAH ddavitt <email@example.com> wrote in message news:3B12B038.CA3F8DBB@netcom.ca... >Jon Ogden wrote: > >> On Mon, 28 May 2001 11:51:58 -0400, ddavitt <firstname.lastname@example.org> >> insisted that the sooth was being spoken here: >> >>>So; does it sound attractive? >> >> I love it!!! >> > >Any bit in particular? I forgot, shirts that don't need laundering >and "Beardgo".....just what did they do with all the time they saved >I wonder? > >I am always taken by the way that Dan focuses on improving the lot >of the housewife. I don't know if this was more input from Ginny or >Heinlein's engineering background making him sensitive to the sheer >time wasting, back breaking, mind numbing tedium of housework. >He also sets out to help Pete but cats are more traditional; >"For old Pete I've built a "cat bathroom" to use in bad weather - >automatic, self replenishing, sanitary and odorless. However, Pete >being a proper cat, prefers to go outdoors..." > >I wonder if the huge industry that is kitty litter was around in any >form in 1956? We do have some very luxurious and automated litter >trays too, though not quite approaching this description. > >Jane
Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt.
Charles Walker JrI'm sure there is a BeardGRO too....<soothing voice>. Dan must just have been clean shaven.
walkers wrote: >Beardgo? Beard-GO?! > >Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt. > > --
I keep noticing more in my practically illegible notes. One is hypnostudy. This is referenced in Space Cadet too; Heinlein must have been taken with the idea though I don't know if the sleep tapes some people use are quite the same so this may be one we still don't have.
...no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep trying.-RAH ddavitt <email@example.com> wrote in message news:3B138852.69D4604E@netcom.ca... >walkers wrote: > >> Beardgo? Beard-GO?! >> >> Back away from me with that bottle and no one gets hurt. >> >> -- > >I'm sure there is a BeardGRO too....<soothing voice>. Dan must just have been >clean shaven. >I keep noticing more in my practically illegible notes. One is hypnostudy. >This is referenced in Space Cadet too; Heinlein must have been taken with the >idea though I don't know if the sleep tapes some people use are quite the same >so this may be one we still don't have. > >Jane >Hmmm....my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with mission info, but to allay fears.<
Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and *I* do, it's mentioned in SIASL too.
I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful.
-- Charles Walker Jr
walkers wrote: >Hmmm....my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already >showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter >Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with >mission info, but to allay fears. > >Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and >*I* do, it's mentioned in SIASL too. > >I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working >knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful. >I don't know; it seems to go against TANSTAAFL somehow. No pain, no gain and all that. It's also dodgy as mistakes could be made, indoctrination could be slipped in amongst the vocabulary...I'll stick to the old ways. Though I wouldn't mind learning renshawing. I'm a speed reader but I can miss stuff, especially when I'm tired. Improving my accuracy would be worth a little effort. The hypno method would be odd too; you wouldn't know what you knew (if you know what I mean).
In SIASL don't they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people talking about studying grimly so her husband didn't get ahead of her and leave her. Maybe it's one of those catches where AFTER you've reached a certain level you are capable of learning by mind transference.
ddavitt <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message news:3B1454CA.D3BDB586@netcom.ca... >In SIASL don't they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people >talking about studying grimly so her husband didn't get ahead of her and leave >her. Maybe it's one of those catches where AFTER you've reached a certain level >you are capable of learning by mind transference. > >Jane >It is *exactly* that AFAIK. you have to learn how to think in martian before you can have knowledge dumped into you.
Indoctrination is certainly a posibility. I believe it's even mentioned that it happens in ST. While I would like to pick up a few subjects, it would have to be someone I *trust*.
Actually there's your cost right there, the risk of being indoctrinated. The one thing I can say about that though, is that in most cases a person cannot be hypnotized to do anything against their will. (That's why often times stop-smoking hypnosis doesn't work.)
Note, I said *most* cases. Mesmer and a few others claimed to be capable of it.
Charles Walker Jr
...no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep trying.-RAH
ddavitt wrote: > >walkers wrote: > >> Hmmm....my handy dandy copy of ST, (brand new by most standards, but already >> showing signs of wear) speaks of hypno-study too. Right in the first chapter >> Rico talks about how they hypnotized cap troopers both to laod them with >> mission info, but to allay fears. >> >> Come to think of it, if you count having martian dumped into your brain, and >> *I* do, it's mentioned in SIASL too. >> >> I like the idea myself. To pick up a new subject of study and gain a working >> knowledge of it in a few hours, or days, would be wonderful. >> > >I don't know; it seems to go against TANSTAAFL somehow. No pain, no gain and all >that. It's also dodgy as mistakes could be made, indoctrination could be slipped >in amongst the vocabulary...I'll stick to the old ways. Though I wouldn't mind >learning renshawing. I'm a speed reader but I can miss stuff, especially when >I'm tired. Improving my accuracy would be worth a little effort.I think you've pointed out the fact that TANSTAAFL is not violated. I think in some of the descriptions, and I'd have to go back to find out where, there was sometimes a headached involved. Second, you do run the risk of indoctrination or adverse suggestions being integrated into what you are learning - If This Goes On -
>The hypno method would be odd too; you wouldn't know what you knew (if you know >what I mean).This was pointed out in Space Cadet, when Matt didn't know he knew Venusian, until it was triggered by someone else speaking Venusian. This implies that there is an effort that must be made to activate the knowledge that was acquired. Also, I wonder if this knowledge goes into permanent storage directly, or if it has to make its way there through a repetition mechanism. Interesting to consider.
>In SIASL don't they have to work at it though? ISTR one of the Nest people >talking about studying grimly so her husband didn't get ahead of her and leave >her. Maybe it's one of those catches where AFTER you've reached a certain level >you are capable of learning by mind transference.Yes, you are referring to Saul's wife and her concern that her husband was "leaving her" for another person. If only she knew ... Also notice that when they received their learning, there was still a broad variance in the ability to use the language, at least as far as we saw in the novel. For instance, some had very poor accents, etc.
Randy J. Jost, Ph.D., PE
Dept of Elec. & Comp. Engr.
Utah State University
(435) 797-0789 (Phone)
(435) 797-3054 (Fax)
"Randy J. Jost" wrote: > >Yes, you are referring to Saul's wife and her concern that her husband >was "leaving her" for another person. If only she knew ... Also >notice that when they received their learning, there was still a broad >variance in the ability to use the language, at least as far as we saw >in the novel. For instance, some had very poor accents, etc. > >Randy >I wonder if that would mean they were less likely to become powerful? If learning Martian is necessary to master the mental powers and you can't do it to an acceptable standard then, what? Someone disappears only half way? It's always struck me as a strange requirement. Why should a skill that humans can acquire only be accessible through an alien language?
Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton's book on Stranger, _The Martian Named Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford's Nitrosyncretic Press) has some answers.....
"ddavitt" <email@example.com> wrote in message news:3B15154D.A2FE0B24@netcom.ca... >I wonder if that would mean they were less likely to become powerful? If learning >Martian is necessary to master the mental powers and you can't do it to an acceptable >standard then, what? Someone disappears only half way? It's always struck me as a >strange requirement. Why should a skill that humans can acquire only be accessible >through an alien language? > >Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton's book on Stranger, _The Martian Named >Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford's Nitrosyncretic Press) has some answers.....I wonder if I should thwap you for spamming?
As for the actual meat of the post... ;) No, it did not affect their ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) The idea of the accents comes near the end, and the only effect of having an accent rather than throat gargly pure Martian, was that Mike could not use you for dumping bulk loads of words for the dictionary. It is mentioned that one of them (Duke?) speaks Martian with a Bronx accent.
IIRC the only half disappearing is caused by having a thick English accent. Of course, it is not the accent itself, but the inability to think regardless of language. (See the uncut version.) Had something to do with being raised in a Monarchy I think...
(Who muct now work for a few weeks to get rid of this Florida / Alabama accent he has reacquired.)
Nuclear Waste <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message news:email@example.com... >IIRC the only half disappearing is caused by having a thick English accent. >Of course, it is not the accent itself, but the inability to think >regardless of language. (See the uncut version.) Had something to do with >being raised in a Monarchy I think... > >NWSome things never change. *thwaps Jim with rolled-up British flag*. I think the Martian language thing is something to do with Ouspensky - ask BillP, he knows that sort of stuff...
"ddavitt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message news:3B12741E.email@example.com... (snip) > > On to 2000/2001... >I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this evening, I'll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it, hint).
>"ddavitt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote >> >> Have to see if Bill Patterson and Andy Thornton's book on Stranger, _The >Martian Named >> Smith_ ( now available from Jim Gifford's Nitrosyncretic Press) has some >answers..... > >I wonder if I should thwap you for spamming?I know you're joking...three of our own write and publish a book about Stranger...we should know about this. My order is in and I'm looking forward to adding it to my shelves.
> > >As for the actual meat of the post... ;) No, it did not affect their >ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of >the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) snip NW > >I will ignore these slurs ( which, considering the huge variety in UK accents are pretty hard to take seriously anyway :-)). I think your explanation is a good one though; I hadn't quite tied it together with the comments Jubal made about reading the Koran in Arabic before.
That makes some sense...but I still wonder if there's a way to point X on the map that doesn't require Martian....or were we never meant to have those powers and we're taking an illegal short cut?
Who wanted Mike to teach us Martian mental discipline? God? Why? To ensure that we only got the skills once we had advanced far enough to have interplanetary travel? Doesn't seem too likely in view of the parlous state of Earth in the book. As a way of saving at least some people from the degeneracy? Perhaps.
>" >I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons >between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in >Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this >evening, I'll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it, >(hint). > > David WrightWouldn't dream of spoiling your fun...<g> Thinking about it, it's interesting that once again, Heinlein bases his future in the home...we get mentions of old people living on the moon for their health and such but basically he shows us a lot of improvements for the housewife ( and it is still a woman at home doing the work...). I think that focusing on an area that we are all familiar with adds to the interest. Heinlein also put his ideas into practise when he and Mrs Heinlein designed and built their own houses.
One theme common to Heinlein that doesn't seem close to coming true yet is that of a lack of food leading to us eating yeast substitutes masquerading as real food. This world food shortage is in Door and the EU predictions. I wonder if it is waiting around the corner or if we will continue to avoid it in the developed nations?
I would like to see a prediction that advances in agriculture decrease world hunger as we make more efficient use of land that, at present is infertile but that probably won't happen. If we did find a way to make the desert, 'bloom like the rose', it'd probably just turn out that it really belonged to whichever country had invented the advance rather than the formerly famine ridden nation and the next thing you know, there'd be a war or something. :-(
>He himself >mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of >clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also >led to time travel in a serendipitous way.Well... In the Sticktite category we have velcro and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way swimsuits fit. Good call there!
Nullgrav, on the other hand.....
>Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve >some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just >on the screen.Nude beaches do exist, but they aren't "common", at least as far as I can tell... IMAX theaters and Dolby sound sort of hit the mark there, although only the Rocky Horror Picture Show really has the "extrodinary special effects", (flying toast? rain storms? etc...) as far as I can tell.
>Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D >ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I >wonder?).Color in the newspaper is common now, although 3 D is rare...
>pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that >awkward folding and rustling.Reading online does work that way, at least sort of...
>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the >panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins,Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper money is more "plastic" than it used to be, What panic?
Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%.
My question is, how many of the hits were caused by people reading Heinlein and saying "good idea, I'm going to make that one happen?"
>Jane wrote: > >>He himself >>mentions two changes; Sticktite fabric that has changed the look of >>clothing dramatically and Nullgrav, one of the discoveries that also >>led to time travel in a serendipitous way. > >Well... In the Sticktite category we have velcro >and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way >swimsuits fit. Good call there! > >Nullgrav, on the other hand..... > >>Nudity on beaches is common, movies are grabbies and tend to involve >>some extraordinary special effects with the cinema itself, not just >>on the screen. > >Nude beaches do exist, but they aren't "common", at >least as far as I can tell... IMAX theaters and Dolby >sound sort of hit the mark there, although only >the Rocky Horror Picture Show really has the >"extrodinary special effects", (flying toast? rain >storms? etc...) as far as I can tell. > >>Newspapers have colour photos and black and white 3 D >>ones ( why not go the whole hog and make the colour ones 3 D too, I >>wonder?). > >Color in the newspaper is common now, although >3 D is rare... > >>pages turn by touching a corner, rather than all that >>awkward folding and rustling. > >Reading online does work that way, at least sort of... > >>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the >>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins, > >Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper >money is more "plastic" than it used to be, What panic? > >Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%. > >My question is, how many of the hits were caused by >people reading Heinlein and saying "good idea, I'm >going to make that one happen?"I am amazed by how much of what we saw in Star Trek (original series, of course) is being 30 years after the series premiered, not 300 years. NASA is even investigating the possibility of faster than light travel (according to an article I read in Popular Science)
Remember how Eunice (IWFNE) wore clothes that were painted on? Models do this all the time in magazines, although I don't imagine many secretaries show up at work that way.
> > Well... In the Sticktite category we have velcro > and lycra, and lycra certainly changed the way > swimsuits fit. Good call there!Yes; I remember when leggings came out in the 1980's. The first time I wore them I felt as Friday must have done in superskin :-) After jeans they were a lot more revealing and a darn sight comfier.
( Mental picture of me lying flat on the bed using a pair of pliers to do up the zip on my skin tight jeans...and being unable to repeat this in the pub loo a few hours later when space was at a premium and I had no pliers...and we laugh at the Victorian women in corsets)
>>Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the >>panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins, > >Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper >money is more "plastic" than it used to be, What panic?Don't know the details; it's just mentioned in passing.
> > >Seems to me that Heinlein hit something like 50%. > >My question is, how many of the hits were caused by >people reading Heinlein and saying "good idea, I'm >going to make that one happen?"I'd like to think that was the case but probably not.
>Tian Harter wrote: > >> >Doors open and shut automatically, money, after the >> >panic of 1987, is now attractive plastic coins, >> >> Supermarket doors do work the way he wanted. Paper >> money is more "plastic" than it used to be, What panic? > >Don't know the details; it's just mentioned in passing.It's mentioned in the usual Heinlein tradition, similar to the "Mistake of 1972" referred to in "-All You Zombies-". As far as plastic money goes, any visitor to Australia recently will tell you that our monetary notes are actually made of plastic (apparently they last longer and are more difficult/impossible to counterfeit).
Must sell at tallest sum.
> One theme common to Heinlein that doesn't seem close to coming true yet is > that of a lack of food leading to us eating yeast substitutes masquerading as > real food. This world food shortage is in Door and the EU predictions. I > wonder if it is waiting around the corner or if we will continue to avoid it > in the developed nations? > I would like to see a prediction that advances in agriculture decrease world > hunger as we make more efficient use of land that, at present is infertile > but that probably won't happen. If we did find a way to make the desert, >'bloom like the rose', it'd probably just turn out that it really belonged to >whichever country had invented the advance rather than the formerly famine >ridden nation and the next thing you know, there'd be a war or something. :-(The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation, nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There is plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic) are hungry.
William Dennis II
> >The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation, >nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. snipI agree that it's not simple...too many factors, economic, religious, political, physical...but I can't help feeling that there is a solution. I wonder if what will crack it will be something off at a tangent from all those? Maybe vastly improved global logistics that allow a surplus in one place to be easily, cheaply and quickly diverted to a famine area....at a nice tax cut for the donor as an incentive.
Doesn't make sense for half the world to be dieting and half starving... Perhaps it's the mommy mentality but I feel like saying sternly, "share nicely!"
>William Dennis wrote: > >> >>The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation, >> nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. snip > >I agree that it's not simple...too many factors, economic, religious, political, >physical...but I can't help feeling that there is a solution. I wonder if what >will crack it will be something off at a tangent from all those? Maybe vastly >improved global logistics that allow a surplus in one place to be easily, >cheaply and quickly diverted to a famine area....at a nice tax cut for the donor >as an incentive. > > Doesn't make sense for half the world to be dieting and half starving...Perhaps >it's the mommy mentality but I feel like saying sternly, "share nicely!" >I believe in sharing too. As long as it is voluntary and not through taxation or wealth distribution schemes.
William Dennis II
the amazing <email@example.com> declared: <snip!>
> >The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to overpopulation, >nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There is >plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy >the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with >almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are >aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic) >are hungry. >I don't quarrel with the basic point, but... agriculture? How many rich populous countries are aggressively free-market about agriculture?
(In a free market supply and demand fall into equilibrium; no butter mountains, wine lakes, programs to run cars with corn likker).
Nollaig MacKenzie <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Setiathome: "You have completed more work units than 96.082% of our users."
> >On 2001.06.01 21:29:40, >the amazing <email@example.com> declared: > ><snip!> > >> >> The cause of hunger in some parts of the world is not due to verpopulation, >> nor due to lack of natural resources. The problems are economic. There >>plenty of land available for agriculture, but people cannot afford to buy >>the food because of the economic systems in which they live. Nations with >>almost no land can afford all the food they need because they are >>aggressively free-market, yet people in India (which is heavily socialistic) >>are hungry. >> > >I don't quarrel with the basic point, but... agriculture? >How many rich populous countries are aggressively free-market >about agriculture? > >(In a free market supply and demand fall into equilibrium; >no butter mountains, wine lakes, programs to run cars with >corn likker).There is certainly a lot of interference in the free market in agriculture in this country. Butter supports. Peanut supports. Tobacco supports. Sugar supports. Ethanol supports. Honey, even. All of it is supposed to help the "family farmer." but most ends up in the hands of corporations.
Still the actually buying and selling takes place on the open market, which keeps prices low.
Frankly, I would do away with all the "help" and let the family farmer sink or swim on his own.
William Dennis II
>Some things never change. *thwaps Jim with rolled-up British flag*. I think >the Martian language thing is something to do with Ouspensky - ask BillP, he >knows that sort of stuff... > >JaniI plead punchdrunkeness. Having gone through 500+ posts in a night in an effort to catch up will do that to you.
>I know you're joking...three of our own write and publish a book about >Stranger...we should know about this. My order is in and I'm looking forward to >adding it to my shelves.Jane, I thought it was obvious that I was applying for the shepard position in the first and last part of my post. ;) I have a nice yard ready for you and Jani's goats.
>> As for the actual meat of the post... ;) No, it did not affect their >> ability to THINK in Martian, which was the real trigger. (Different map of >> the world, the ability to understand new concepts etc.) snip NW > I will ignore these slurs ( which, considering the huge variety in UK accents > are pretty hard to take seriously anyway :-)). I think your explanation is a > good one though; I hadn't quite tied it together with the comments Jubal made > about reading the Koran in Arabic before.I can't take credit for it, I got it from the book.
>That makes some sense...but I still wonder if there's a way to point X on the >map that doesn't require Martian....or were we never meant to have those powers >and we're taking an illegal short cut?I don't know if it was an illegal shortcut so much as Prometheus delivering fire. I think we would have gotten there eventually. Jubal groks without speaking Martian, Hindus manage similar control of their bodies, Allie groks in a limited fashion using astrology etc. The pieces were there, we just had not developed them.
>Who wanted Mike to teach us Martian mental discipline? God? Why?My reading of the book makes the whole thing look like preordained free will. (Mrs. Douglas on assignment, Mike etc.) As to God doing it, of course he did, all that groks is God. Why? I would not presume to answer for you Jane. Thou Art God.
>"ddavitt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message >news:3B17E17F.43C23999@netcom.ca... >>I know you're joking...three of our own write and publish a book about >>Stranger...we should know about this. My order is in and I'm looking >forward to >>adding it to my shelves. > >Jane, I thought it was obvious that I was applying for the shepard position >in the first and last part of my post. ;) I have a nice yard ready for you >and Jani's goats. >Of course it was Jim, that's why I started with "I know you're joking". After over three years I can tell when you're trying to wind me up. Most of the time :-)
>Frankly, I would do away with all the "help" and >let the family farmer sink or swim on his own.I find the farmers market to be a much better source of cutting edge marketplace technology than any supermarket I ever heard of.
Agribusiness simply can't compete with a woman selling Pink Ladys by the pound.
> >"ddavitt" <email@example.com> wrote in message >news:3B12741E.firstname.lastname@example.org... > >(snip) > >> >> On to 2000/2001... >> >I think that we seriously need to look at descriptions and comparisons >between 1900, the middle of the century and 2000 that RAH outlined in >Expanded Universe. Lots of predictions there. As soon as I get home this >evening, I'll take a look and write it up,(unless someone beats me to it, >hint). > >David Wright >Ok. So no one took the bait, I guess that I'll have to make a stab at it. I include where I can remember similar references in RAH's works. Rererences are off the top of my head and are not meant to be exclusive.
1) Changed definition of suburbia. 200 miles around city made possible by flying automated pilot cabs. (Beyond This Horizon)
2) Houses build as domes. RAH's character said that they reminded her of domes in Wizard of Oz. Made me think of R. Buckminster Fuller's geodesic domes. (Red Planet)
3) Social change. Casual nudity is normal in homes. Only people put off, (slightly), are us old fogies. (a number of RAH's books showed this one)
3) Social change. Families have 'family psychiatrist', although apparently not taken too seriously since homeowner decides to disobey in deference to 'old fogy', who, however, recognizes social significance of being classed as 'an outsider, not a member of family'. (Time Enough For Love)
4) Complete dust precipitation from outside and a 'whirlwind' to collect dust from inside house along with ultraviolet sterilization, disposable surface materials keeps house 'clean'. 'Only barbarians wear shoes in house'.
5) Social change. Even 'old fogy' accepts nudity in sun-bathing setting.
6) Modern science has allowed even 'old fogies' to remain young looking if they so desire, 'and most of them so wish'. (Methusaleh's Children)
7) Complete weather-controlled patio and swimming pool area which "appears to be outdoors, but is not;it is covered by a bubble of transparent plastic, blown and cured on the spot."
8) Automated kitched 'stove' which keeps track of inventory, produces meals on a random basis which can be selected or rejected by the 'cook'. It then 'cook' or warms them. Apparently lots of pseudo food, 'lamb chops based on fish', etc. Food not as plentiful as in 1900. 'Too many people, not enough acres'. Dishes burned not cleaned. (Farmer in the Sky).
9) Television which records and categorizes programs, especially news ones, which can be looked at later. (Methusaleh's Children).
10) Recording Phones, with automatic call forwarding. (Farmer in the Sky)
11) Old folks home on the moon.
That's 3-4 pages. More to come when, and if, I have the time.
(snip) > >That's 3-4 pages. More to come when, and if, I have the time. > >David Wright > >P.S. And all of this is from the 'fictional scenario' leadin. All of the 'real' predictions come later on.
Even the depressing world of IWFNE has that escape route; Joan Eunice's child will grow up looking at earth from a distance, part of a young and vital community rather than a decadent and violent one.
ddavitt <email@example.com> wrote in message news:3B1C2113.4E68415F@netcom.ca... > > I think the biggest failure to achieve what Heinlein predicted has to be in the > field of space travel. I'm sure he would have put money on a lunar colony in > 2001 if someone offered him odds back in 1950. > Even the depressing world of IWFNE has that escape route; Joan Eunice's child >will grow up looking at earth from a distance, part of a young and vital >community rather than a decadent and violent one. > >Jane >Looking at it, I don't think he realized the hatred that would evolve for discovery. He was obviously an optimist where the race was concerned, and the politicians will void out discovery for votes every time.
Charles Walker Jr
...no government yet has been able to repeal natural law, though they keep trying.-RAH
fgherman has entered the room.
fgherman: Look a little quiet so far.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Felicia. Only us mice here so far
fgherman: I don't think this crowd is watching the MTV Movie Awards
DavidWrightSr: I doubt it.
fgherman: Is there a topic for this evening?
DavidWrightSr: Yes. Hang on a min.
DavidWrightSr: Yes, the 'World of The Future 2001'. Taken mostly from RAH's Door into Summer
DavidWrightSr: I hate these short message we are limited to now.
fgherman: or "Where's my flying car
DavidWrightSr: I had to do that one completely over. Right, You'll have to wait in line after me for one. :-)
fgherman: I wasn't aware they had changed things on us.
DavidWrightSr: the line length went from about 450 chars to a little over a hundred.
DavidWrightSr: The older version of AIM stops you when you reach the limit, but the new one doesn't
DavidWrightSr: and if you go over, you have to do it over.
fgherman: oh, an "improvement"
RMLWJ1 has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi there. Welcome. Nobody here yet, but us mices
DavidWrightSr: People usually start showing up about now.
DavidWrightSr: fgherman is Felicia , I am David. What is your name?
Sacademy has entered the room.
RMLWJ1: I'm Leon
fgherman: Good evening Ginny
DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ginny.
Sacademy: Good evening all.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Leon. We now have Leon, Felicia, Ginny and David Present. I expect the others will be shortly
DavidWrightSr: Leon was my brother's name.
RMLWJ1: Any topic tonight in particular?
DavidWrightSr: Yes, the 'World of The Future 2001'. Taken mostly from RAH's Door into Summer
DavidWrightSr: and 'Expanded Universe' I hope
Sacademy: I am expecting two guests this evening. Sandy and Denis (pronounced French fashion, Donny)
DavidWrightSr: Great. Is that their screen names?
Sacademy: No. Denis is DJedPar and Sandy is
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Will
geeairmoe2: Hi, David, all.
Sacademy: Good evening Will.
DavidWrightSr: Ok. I've added them to my 'buddy list' and will keep an eye out for them.
DavidWrightSr: Wonder where our leaders are?
Sacademy: My guests haven't turned up yet.
Sacademy: Thank you David.
RMLWJ1: I trust all are well?
Sacademy: We were having a thunderstorm and I wasn't sure I could get here, so I sent an email to AGplysone.
DavidWrightSr: We can just chat for a bit and hope Jane or David Silver or someone shows up to get us started
fgherman: You do need the rain down there.
DavidWrightSr: We have had rain, rain, rain. Almost caught us up. They had to close down LSU where my son is because
DavidWrightSr: of flooding.
Sacademy: We certainly do. It's been very dry.
fgherman: I'd be happy to send you some of our excess
DavidWrightSr: Yippe.. I see Jane signing on
geeairmoe2: Allison missed us in Central Texas.
Sacademy: I wish you could Felicia.
geeairmoe2: We expect rain ... oh, about September.
ddavitt has entered the room.
ddavitt has left the room.
RMLWJ1: We've had the odd spot of it here in Roanoke, but by and large it's been a dry spring.
ddavitt has entered the room.
fgherman: Was it something we said.
DavidWrightSr: Slava Bogu. our leader is here.
ddavitt: Sorry; two windows opened at once
Sacademy: Good evening, Jane.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.
fgherman: EVening Jane
geeairmoe2: Hello, Jane.
ddavitt: David refused to move away from the computer. i had to get testy with him:-)
ddavitt: Checking UK election results
ddavitt: Hi everyone.
fgherman: Tony Blair is still winning, right?
Sacademy: Blair won. I could have told him
ddavitt: Yes, foregone conclusion...very low turnout tho
RMLWJ1: brb. Coffee.
ddavitt: Dave; while I remember, have you managed to contact Robert Crais?
Sacademy: I need some more lemonade.
ddavitt: Looks as if Connie may not be able to be GofH for a while so we could ask Robert to be the next one?
geeairmoe2: Robert is . . . ?
Sacademy: Robert who?
ddavitt: Robert crais is a mystery writer
ddavitt: He always has a Heinlein reference in his books
DavidWrightSr: No, I haven't. I will if we need to look around for another GOH. When would you suggest?
Sacademy: Nice of him.
DavidWrightSr: He's the one who put the pictures on the Colorado house wasn't he?
geeairmoe2: Does he have a web site?
DavidWrightSr: I'll have to search for his address.
ddavitt: I have it bookmarked. hang on
Sacademy: I have addys for SFWA only
DavidWrightSr: When do we want him for?
ddavitt: Anytime really
geeairmoe2: Thanks, Jane.
DavidWrightSr: Thanks. I'll check it out. Again. What date should we shoot for?
ddavitt: We have no topic for next time
ddavitt: But that may be too soon
DavidWrightSr: That's a little close.
ddavitt: We are blank for July 5/7 as there is a con
ddavitt: July19/21 is racism
ddavitt: August sometime is critical perspectives
ddavitt: That's it
ddavitt: racism can get switched if need be
DavidWrightSr: I'll try for 5/7 and see what he says, That's not a particularly good time as a lot of people...
Sacademy: I just went back,. Bill is online now.
DavidWrightSr: plan events around the 4th.
ddavitt: we can skip that chat then if you like or just have a come and natter about anything night
DavidWrightSr: He's still on AOL, hasn't logged into AIM yet.
ddavitt: basically, if we can get him, just see what suits him.
DavidWrightSr: Well, I'll go ahead and try. See what he says.
ddavitt: He's a Buffy fan too :-)
fgherman: Buffy rules
ddavitt: A man of taste...
Sacademy: Who is that Buffy that you're tlaking about?
ddavitt: Oh yes...did you see that last episode; shock horror
ddavitt: Buffy the vampire Slayer SA
DavidWrightSr: Series on TV, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Never watched it myself
fgherman: Buffy the Vampire Slayer - a tv show
ddavitt: Very good show; hidden depths
ddavitt: OK, shall we kick off then?
RMLWJ1: Buffy and the Vampire Slayers is now a TV show, ma'am.
geeairmoe2: One of my brother's is a fan. Love Willow. he has a fondness for redheads.
DavidWrightSr: Yeah Right. With a name like Buffy O:-)
ddavitt: It's an excellent show
ddavitt: Don't go by the film; that was dire
DavidWrightSr: I'm just kidding. Never had a chance to see it.
RMLWJ1: Jim Baen is a Buffy fan.
ddavitt: Catch some of the summer reruns; you may like it
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
Sacademy: Ray for Jim!
DavidWrightSr: Welcome Bill.
ddavitt: Lots of overlap between heinlein/Buffy fans.
Sacademy: Hello Bill
fgherman: We all have taste
ddavitt: many on sff buffy group are big in heinlein fanworld too
fgherman: HI Bill
ddavitt: Hi Bill
DavidWrightSr: Maybe we could discuss that topic sometime. See what the connection might be.
ddavitt: We are just about to start, getting some topics lined up
Sacademy: Did you all choose those colors for your screen names? I can't read half of them
ddavitt: No SA it's AIM doing it to us automatically
Heinleinsmof: Everyone's but mine is in blue on my screen
fgherman: same here
ddavitt: They are horrible colours aren't they?
geeairmoe2: All my names are blue.
ddavitt: I have green, purple orange...real rainbow
DavidWrightSr: All I see is blue for names, black for text and Red for my own name
ddavitt: Will, you are yellow
Sacademy: I bet you all don't have the most recent AIM
ddavitt: Orange for dave
geeairmoe2: I fear nothing!
ddavitt: That may be it; i upgraded
ddavitt: :-)Will I know that.
Sacademy: Me, too. What color do I have?
Sacademy: It's red here.
ddavitt: You are dark greenSA
RMLWJ1: You're green on my screen, ma'am.
Sacademy: At least that is visible.
ddavitt: I am red
ddavitt: To me anyway
Sacademy: You aren't color blind, are you?
fgherman: remind not to upgrade if that's what happens
DavidWrightSr: Everyone's own name should be in red. I don't know what controls the other colors
RMLWJ1: The colours are random, assigned as folks come onto the chat room.
ddavitt: Yes, good topic; if you like Heinlein then you'll like...X
ddavitt: No deep significance then...<g>
ddavitt: So; ready to chat?
ddavitt: offically that is?:-)
Sacademy: Have you seen my guests, David?
DavidWrightSr: Djedpar is here. Hang on. I'll invite him in
Sacademy: Thank you.
DavidWrightSr: Done. No response yet.
DjedPar has entered the room.
Sacademy: Good evening, Denis.
DavidWrightSr: Vot On.
DavidWrightSr: I mean There he is
ddavitt: Who sent me the screen picture of the cat? Lovely picture...
DjedPar: Good Evening
ddavitt: Welcome Denis
DavidWrightSr: Welcomd Denis
fgherman: Welcome Denis
DjedPar: Thank you
Sacademy: Denis was the first member of THS
DavidWrightSr: Congratulations. One of these days, I am going to try to afford joining.
DavidWrightSr: But I just spent my father's day gift on Bill's new book.
Sacademy: Have you read it yet?
ddavitt: I have my order in too
DavidWrightSr: Not supposed to be delivered until the 18th I believe
Sacademy: What is Bill doing, reading his email?
DavidWrightSr: Being modest, I presume
ddavitt: I have read it online but it makes my head ache
ddavitt: Not the book; that method
DavidWrightSr: It's online. Where?
Sacademy: No one lkes to read books online as far as I can tell.
ddavitt: No; Bill sent it to me
ddavitt: To critique for the Journal
DavidWrightSr: Ok then, I'll try not to pout too much.
Heinleinsmof: Hi -- I was courting a headache by looking in at AFH
Sacademy: Do you have to get it in for the July issue, Jane?
ddavitt: I promised I would still buy it
ddavitt: Hope not!
DavidWrightSr: I'm really anxious to get Phil Owenby's book.
Heinleinsmof: Well, yes, the July issue was what I had in mind.
ddavitt: Oh dear..you didn't say that.
Heinleinsmof: Hey -- I told you you would get a comp copy for review.
ddavitt: OK, I will do my best.
ddavitt: I've read it but online is hard to flip back abd forth
Heinleinsmof: I can hold the deadline if it is necessary
ddavitt: I can't take it in as well as a book
ddavitt: No; i will do it. I promised
Heinleinsmof: It is hard to read it in Acrobat format, isn't it? The Acrobat navigation isn't very convenient, eit
ddavitt: I just started to look at a new project with Tim Morgan
ddavitt: Researching the dedication names
ddavitt: He mentioned he began it; sounds like fun
Heinleinsmof: I hadn't heard from him in awhile, so I wondered how it was going
ddavitt: He said it had stalled a bit
ddavitt: But I think we could all pitch in and do it.
ddavitt: L'Envoi is done so we need a new challenge:-)
Heinleinsmof: Did he get all the 30 or so dedications to Friday?
ddavitt: I don't think so; he emailed me what he had
ddavitt: I haven't had chance to look at it in detail; this only came up this afternoon
Sacademy: Someone got all but two, and sent a copy to them all for signatures.
ddavitt: But I think he has just the easy ones like Doc Smith
Heinleinsmof: When the book came out I recognized about 80% of the names -- a lot of them are sf writers.
ddavitt: That was enterprising!
Heinleinsmof: It's a historical document.
ddavitt: i started today by doing the books chronologically as I thought that might be useful
ddavitt: L'Envoi list may have some answers too if we compare them.
ddavitt: Some of the books don't have dedications in my editions
Sacademy: I helped Francesco with that envoi list.
ddavitt: You nailed it down Ginny
ddavitt: It's now 100% done after a very long time
Sacademy: Yes. But then I was on the inside on that.
ddavitt: You had an advantage:-)
DjedPar: Ginny has more energy than all of us.
Sacademy: Well, Yes. Was that unfair?
ddavitt: If we try and track down all the dedications and get totally stuck may we ask you for help on that?
ddavitt: I promise we'll try on our own as much as possible
Sacademy: Of course.
ddavitt: Thanks! That is the sort of thing I enjoy; like a cryptic crossword.
Sacademy: They were all the children of close friends for the juvies.
Sacademy: Well, most of them
ddavitt: I wondered if Diane and Clark were the neighbours who Poddy and Clark were based on?
ddavitt: I remember you said Clark was real
Sacademy: Yes. Last name Russell. Jim R. owned the local TV station.
ddavitt: Star Beast was dedicated to them
ddavitt: Cool! Got one!
Sacademy: Any others?
ddavitt: Too many to list..
Sacademy: Then send me an email about it.
ddavitt: I'll work on it and see what gaps are left
ddavitt: Will do.
ddavitt: I suppose we should start the chat...
geeairmoe2: Chat subject is ... ?
ddavitt: We are looking at the world dan Davis slept his way to; 2000/1
ddavitt: What did Heinlein imagine it was like back in 1955 and where did we fail to measure up
DavidWrightSr: As Felicia said earlier to me. Where's my flying car?
ddavitt: What did Heinlein miss and why/ What made us go off at a tangent?
DavidWrightSr: and that was for 1970, not 2000
ddavitt: Quite...that was a staple of SF that hasn't really come
RMLWJ1: Well, gold is still a commdity, not an engineering metal.
ddavitt: Yes; 1970 in the book had lots that we still don't have. we are way behind
ddavitt: Is there any sign of that changing?
ddavitt: I don't understand economics that well.
DavidWrightSr: I expect that we will have robots along his lines in the not too distant future. They are making...
DavidWrightSr: a lot of progress
Heinleinsmof: I don't think anyone imagined the political barriers that have been placed in the way of technical
ddavitt: Paper money needs gold behind it to make it worth something?
ddavitt: Who checks to make sure the gold's all there?
Heinleinsmof: Or the strange twists the economy has taken when it changed over to more government than private
Heinleinsmof: sectoriun about 1967
ddavitt: We could have the robots but do we want them? We seem very conservative about some things
DavidWrightSr: Well, actually, gold is used a lot on high quality circuit boards.
Heinleinsmof: If it weren't for spinoffs from the space program we'd have been in deep doo-doo
ddavitt: But that's a practical use; putting it in Fort Knox seems like a game
Heinleinsmof: Why a "game"?
ddavitt: Too many topics here; can we pick one/ I'm getting sprained fingers:-)
ddavitt: OK, let's do gold then
ddavitt: Game because it's not enough is it?
ddavitt: Isn't there more paper than gold? isn't that inflation?
ddavitt: So what's the point?
Heinleinsmof: But the gold IS the money; the paper are just representations. Yes, it is inflation. The point is,
Heinleinsmof: it's a"free" tax
ddavitt: If we all took our paper and demanded our gold ( as maureen did in sail) it would tumble down
Heinleinsmof: That's why all governments inflate -- it's a form of taxation.
ddavitt: It's cheating if you ask me
Heinleinsmof: No -- the price of gold would rise until it equalled the demand.
ddavitt: So why do you think Heinlein had it disappear?
Sacademy: Governments love inflating their currencies.
ddavitt: Dan davis used plastic money; wonder what backed it up?
Heinleinsmof: The kicker is that Heinlein liked the Social Credit monetary theory, which is an abstraction backed
ddavitt: Printing their own money; very tempting.
Heinleinsmof: by productive capacity
ddavitt: What does that mean? Workers, resources?
Heinleinsmof: DD's plastic money was probably the same as the Federal Reserve Note -- a promise to default if the
RMLWJ1: Hmm. GDP will do it, actually.
Heinleinsmof: government gets into trouble.
geeairmoe2: Would it somehow relate to the bit about Dan's job of crushing new cars?
ddavitt: That was very funny!
Heinleinsmof: The economic system described in Beyond This Horizon is closely related to Social Credit.
ddavitt: When he asked why they were poor quality and was told they were made to be crushed..
ddavitt: Pointless make work
geeairmoe2 has left the room.
ddavitt: To keep people in jobs
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
Heinleinsmof: revolving door today, Will?
ddavitt: Why is it so quiet suddenly?<g>
geeairmoe2: Gremlins all over.
DjedPar: Anyone want to talk about Pete?
RMLWJ1: Kind of like Brazil and coffee.
ddavitt: Oh yes! He was a great character
ddavitt: The conversations with him were a bit like Kip and Oscar
ddavitt: But he wasn't exactly a prediction:-) There will always be cats.
ddavitt: No; he is a driving force in the book; he is very important
ddavitt: No need to be sorry.
DavidWrightSr: Don't be cats are always on-topic in a Heinlein discussion
DjedPar: Still too quiet. He inspired the book.
DavidWrightSr: No one has yet discussed the primary missed prediction. 'Cold Sleep'.
ddavitt: One important overlap there actually; not many H fans who don't like cats
ddavitt: We can do that now dave; it was all coming thick and fast that's all
ddavitt: There is a lot to look at. GA with cold sleep; 'many are cold, but few are frozen' and all that
ddavitt: Surprised Cryo didn't pop up in the pre meet posts on this issue
DavidWrightSr: 'cold sleep' figures in a lot of RAH's books. at least a half-dozen or so that I can think of..
DavidWrightSr: off the top of my head
ddavitt: We certainly have missed out on this as it was around from the 1960's for Dan
ddavitt: Tunnel...BTH maybe?
SandySandfort has entered the room.
ddavitt: What others?
ddavitt: Hi there.
fgherman: Hello Sandy
Sacademy: Good evening, Sandy.
DavidWrightSr: Between Planets. Methusalehs' Children,
Sacademy: Glad you made it.
RMLWJ1: cold sleep seems pretty far off, at this point.
ddavitt: We are looking at cold sleep as part of a discussion on Heinlein's predictions for 200 in Door
SandySandfort: Hi, you'll have to excuse any ineptitude. I don't have much chat experenience.
DavidWrightSr: Well maybe not as many as I thought.
ddavitt: Just leap in when you want to Sandy
ddavitt: Time For The Start perhaps?
ddavitt: Stars I mean
ddavitt: It's a useful plot device of course
ddavitt: And as an option it's one that has had a lot of air time on afh
DavidWrightSr: BTH didn't have cold sleep. it had the stasis field
ddavitt: Not many people seem keen on it
geeairmoe2: Didn't Beyond This Horizon have a character wake up from cold sleep?
ddavitt: And it wasn't common was it?
geeairmoe2: He tried to explain football.
ddavitt: It was stasis...can't recall the details. He was tricked
DjedPar: Cold sleep may not be too far off. Look at what they do with blood.
ddavitt: I think it's still a way off...have they even revived an animal yet?
ddavitt: And with an animal, hard to assess brain damage and such
RMLWJ1: not to my knowledge.
Heinleinsmof: Hi, Sandy. Long Time No See (it's Bill Patterson)
ddavitt: Would people here do it if it were as safe as it was for Dan?
DjedPar: I used to freeze frogs for pregnancy tests.
SandySandfort: Hi Bill, yeah it's been a while
ddavitt: Friday always strikes me as old fashioned because on the spaceship they don't have pregnancy kits...
Sacademy: Nasty of you, Denis!
ddavitt: Now you can find out the day after your period should have started; real advances there in a short
ddavitt: space of time. damn this word limit!
fgherman has left the room.
DjedPar has left the room.
RMLWJ1: Even serum pregnancy tests are shaky that early.
DjedPar has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: At least with the old version, it stops you and won't let you go on. The new version accepts....
ddavitt: I have done it very early and got a result
DavidWrightSr: everything and then gives you a stupid message about being too complex
ddavitt: i am impatient:-)
ddavitt: Anyway, that's one area we have gone beyond what Heinlein imagined...but we are still failing on most
ddavitt: of the important ones.
ddavitt: To my mind, space travel is the biggie
RMLWJ1: We need a permanent space station.
Sacademy: It's out there. Want to pay millions for it?
ddavitt: ALL the books have it as a given...lunar colonies, travel to mars/Venus at least...
DjedPar: Amen to that
RMLWJ1: Then we can mine the asteroids.
DavidWrightSr: You know. When I think of it Door had no mention of space travel did it. It had 'null grav' .....
ddavitt: Yes; there are millions of us. i can give a dollar; if we all did, there it is, paid for
DavidWrightSr: but it couldn't be used (yet) for spaceships
ddavitt: Door had a Venus colony
geeairmoe2: In Grumbles RAH notes 'Door' had Martians, then he chucked it out.
DavidWrightSr: I didn't recall that about the Venus colony
ddavitt: maybe i'm going mad...
DavidWrightSr: You are probably right.
ddavitt: Sire I saw it but I just found the bit about no space travel
ddavitt: perhaps they have ST but just not with null grav
DavidWrightSr: Well, if it is there, it's a total blank in my memory. :-)
geeairmoe2: Topping my memory of 'Door' is Dan's job of crushing cars never meant to be used.
ddavitt: can't find my notes for the chat; i will withdraw it:-)
Sacademy: That's satire on government doings.
DjedPar: Thanks Ginny
ddavitt: They have a lunar shuttle; in the headlines of the paper he reads when he wakes up
Sacademy: Most of you won't remember when the WPA had its heyday.
ddavitt: Got it!
fgherman has entered the room.
ddavitt: He says they've beat the common cold
Sacademy: WB Felicia
ddavitt: 'that meant more to me than the research colony on Venus"
fgherman: @#$% machine
ddavitt: phew; thought i was starting to imagine things
Sacademy: No, it's AOL
ddavitt: Sleep deprivation can do that to you....
geeairmoe2: Prediction missed: weather control. Rain the same time every day.
ddavitt: Do they have that?
ddavitt: That I missed.
ddavitt: Probably too busy drooling over the idea of shirts that don't need ironing...
ddavitt: It's the little things that matter
DavidWrightSr: sounds a little like spandex ?
fgherman: That's "Sticktootite"
ddavitt: Yes; I remember my first pair of lycra leggings
Sacademy: Like a jammed zipper.
DavidWrightSr: There was some comment about 'what the ladies could do with sticktite...'
ddavitt: Superskin eat your heart out:-)
ddavitt: If it stuck to skin it would be a good fabric to work in
DavidWrightSr: You know. he did get the bank access feature exactly right on.
ddavitt: Could be daring with it as it would still cover you where needed and not slip
ddavitt: Nudist beaches though; not common at all in Canada which is pretty straitlaced
ddavitt: What about US? Are there many/
RMLWJ1: Kinda chilly too.
fgherman: all over, but none that I've been to.
ddavitt: We have some in UK and you can go topless with not many looks
ddavitt: On all beaches
Sacademy: Isn't UK warmer than Canada?
ddavitt: Here in canda you would get arrested.
ddavitt: Yes on average but Canadian summers are much warmer
DavidWrightSr: No looks. They must be dead then 8-)
SandySandfort: I thought there was a nude beach in Vancouver near the University.
ddavitt: They are quite prudish; even men with no tops on get funny looks
Heinleinsmof: It's odd, but that kind of thing has gone in and out of fashion several times since the book was
ddavitt: Might be private
ddavitt: Here in my town a woman went topless in a swimming pool to prove a point and was arrested
Heinleinsmof: But your town is "Tronna the Good"
Heinleinsmof: Presbyterian World Central
ddavitt: Small town an hour or so away.
ddavitt: Toronto, you can be fined for grass too long...:-(
ddavitt: Unheard of in UK
Heinleinsmof: I didn't realize you were so far away from Yonge Street.
RMLWJ1: They can do that here also.
ddavitt: You mean The World's Biggest Bookshop/?:-)
Sacademy: Jane, I forgot to tell you that Denis has Canadian and US citizenship
ddavitt: It's a Bad Thing
RMLWJ1: If one doesn't keep the lawn within certain limits, the city mows it, charges it to real estate taxes.
fgherman: Joel has dual citizenship also.
ddavitt: Oh really? i am still just British but I've been in Canada for 4 years now
ddavitt: Of course, my new baby is dual
geeairmoe2: 'Grass Police' used to mean cops looking for pot.
ddavitt: Now they're looking for outlawed weeds
ddavitt: Though there was a drug bust on our street last month; people turned basement into a cannabis factory.
Sacademy: Like cannabis?
Heinleinsmof: Just call them "lawn jockeys" as they ride their mowers.
ddavitt: we were described as an upscale suburb. LOL
ddavitt: Mowers that dan David would have had automated
ddavitt: Dan Davis
Sacademy: I used grow papaver somniferum until r. made me stop.
ddavitt: What is that Ginny?
fgherman: HOnda now has an automated mower
Heinleinsmof: I don't recognize that from the botanical name.
ddavitt: Common name I mean?
Sacademy: Opium poppy
ddavitt: Ah..very pretty flowers
Heinleinsmof: Oh,of course. Yes.
Heinleinsmof: And a thumb to the nose of the busybodies.
Sacademy: Very pretty. Double
ddavitt: I'm sure we innocently grow lots of stuff that is illegal
ddavitt: wild bird seed sprouting and such
fgherman: all I can manage are chives, mint & crabgrass
Sacademy: I got the seed from the RHS
ddavitt: My oregano and lemon balm are taking over the border
RMLWJ1: My mother used to have a huge bed of digitalis.
Heinleinsmof: Trust the Brits to have an interest in the opium poppy.
ddavitt: I'm sure you'd need a lot of flowers to make whatever it is you make
ddavitt: part of our heritage...
Sacademy: Only foxglove. That's not illegal.
Heinleinsmof: Foxglove is a very common plant
DjedPar: I still do. Have a bed of digitalis
ddavitt: Poisonous though..digitalis
ddavitt: Heart medicine
Heinleinsmof: Heck, Belladona is a landscaping plant, too.
DjedPar: So is Rhubarb leaf
ddavitt: It's pretty too; I like wildflowers
RMLWJ1: It can be. Digitalis tea is an old remedy for angina.
Heinleinsmof: You've got to rememeber, there was no such thing as a prohibited plant in this country until about
Sacademy: So is oleander, but everyone grows that.
Heinleinsmof: It's a very recent thing.
SandySandfort: Don't forget morning glories. Chew the seeds.
RMLWJ1: Yep. Jimson weed, too.
ddavitt: We have purple loosestrife taking over
DavidWrightSr: You got Kudzu in Canada?
Heinleinsmof: And in the southwest -- yes, Jimson weed
ddavitt: But it's so pretty i hate to pull it up
RMLWJ1: We see about a half-dozen cases a year of Jimson weed poisoning.
DjedPar: Kudzu is medicinal?
ddavitt: Field behind us in Uk used to have magic mushrooms
ddavitt: No; I meant it led to banned plants
ddavitt: Because it was so invasive
ddavitt: We are so off topic.....<g>
DavidWrightSr: Tell me about it. I live in the South. We got kudzu everywhere.
Heinleinsmof: The laws against C. sativa were enacted in the 30's -- kudzu didn't get to these shores until the 70'
ddavitt: I have never seen it
ddavitt: Erosion control wasn't it?
RMLWJ1: Not cold enough down here to control it.
ddavitt: Link it to farmer; they were careful about what they took with them
Heinleinsmof: Gene splice it to grow stuff like soybeans
ddavitt: to Ganymede.
DjedPar: Back to cold sleep?
ddavitt: No one said if they would do it or not?
ddavitt: I would if I didn't have family perhaps
Heinleinsmof: Where's CryoRandy when you need him?
ddavitt: I know who to blame now Bill....
Heinleinsmof: It was completely innocent -- I swear!
ddavitt: Or if i were ill
ddavitt: Or if i were ill
DavidWrightSr: If I had no family and had a terminal disease which I thought might be curable, I think
ddavitt: Sorry; it's stiking tonight
DavidWrightSr: I'd do it....
ddavitt: I think it hasn't gone and I press send twice
DavidWrightSr: If not just for the chance of seeing the future...
ddavitt: Yes; it is tempting
geeairmoe2: The judge in Dan's vagrancy case seemed to dislike Sleepers.
ddavitt: It's akin to immigrants though
geeairmoe2: Called it "dumping riff-raff on us" by their grandfathers.
ddavitt: people arriving who overload the system
DavidWrightSr: good analogy. immigrants from the past.
ddavitt: That never occurs to randy of course. he thinks he will be welcomed with open arms.
ddavitt: Mind boggles as to why
Heinleinsmof: Just think -- generations of chat rooms that aren't wise to his rants!
ddavitt: We would be primitives, disease ridden and ignorant
DavidWrightSr: Aside from the technical problems, the notion of entrusting myself to some institution would....
DavidWrightSr: bother me
ddavitt: Yes; so many opportunities for a scam
fgherman: We would also be living history
geeairmoe2: And that's assuming their will be a future to be unfrozen in.
ddavitt: A note of optimism!
DjedPar: That's the only technical difficulty.
ddavitt: Yes, what would we do know with an Ancient eygptian say?
DjedPar: Trusting the freezers
Heinleinsmof: But if there isn't such a future-- we'll never know it.
Heinleinsmof: So in that sense, it's a good bed.
ddavitt: Though it wouldn't be that far back probably; someone from 1970 would be of no value historically
Heinleinsmof: But think of the entertainment value!
ddavitt: Dan had trouble getting a job remember
ddavitt: What about those cerise bell bottoms?
ddavitt: heinlein really got that right...but should have had it for the 1970 bit of the book, not the 2000 part
geeairmoe2: Pet rocks and mood rings. Disco.
fgherman: Please don't remind me
ddavitt: I remember flares but I was about 11 or 12....
ddavitt: I never wore platform shoes; my mum wouldn't let me and I thought they were silly
fgherman: I remember hot pants (ugh)
DjedPar: What did RAH think of bellbottoms?
Sacademy: Robrt liked the hot pants.
ddavitt: Colin in cat wears lime green jump suit
DavidWrightSr: A man of good taste.
geeairmoe2: Vertical-stripped bell bottoms. I've an old photograph that needs burning.
DavidWrightSr: Robert not Colin
DjedPar: Robert had excellent taste. Very proper.
geeairmoe2: Leisure suits.
ddavitt: Like most revealing fashions it depends on who's in 'em
Sacademy: Remember those chest protector ties?
geeairmoe2: Never took drugs and I'm still having horrible flashbacks.
RMLWJ1: My dad had a few.
ddavitt: I used to go out dressed in practically nothing; now I'd get looks but not admiring ones...<sigh>
ddavitt: What were they Ginny?
Heinleinsmof: Reminds me of sf conventions in the early 70's with their "Most naked costume" competitions.
ddavitt: You mean the really wide ones?
Sacademy: Great big ties--flared out from the knot
ddavitt: Sounds intriguing..
DjedPar: I still have some.
ddavitt: Oh yes, i know what you mean now!
Sacademy: Do you wear them Denis?
DjedPar: Good for teasing the cat.
DjedPar: Not often.
Sacademy: Happy to hear that.
Heinleinsmof: We seem to be off topic again -- how about a 10 minute break as we are halfway into the session?
Heinleinsmof: (so are his colleagues, Ginny!)
ddavitt: OK but I will be leaving soonsish
Heinleinsmof: Do you want to have the break later?
ddavitt: As it's getting to my bedtime. But I'm sure someone can take over
DjedPar: Time for a coffee?
ddavitt: No; ga and break
Heinleinsmof: Hilf sich
ddavitt: I will prop open eyes as long as poss
Sacademy: Coffee? At this hour????
Heinleinsmof: Ok -- we're on break until 7:45 PDT
fgherman: I need a martini - brb
ddavitt: Time travellers....10.36 for me
SandySandfort: Thanks all, I'm off for tonight.
ddavitt: I could drink a gallon and still fall asleep i think. lauren is teething and I was up lots last night
SandySandfort has left the room.
ddavitt: Glad you could make it sandy
Sacademy: Bye, Sandy
ddavitt: darn...too late
geeairmoe2: These chats need an easy way to provide intermission music.
ddavitt: I hate that stuff on phones!
ddavitt: Drives me mad when i'm on hold and it's in my ear
Heinleinsmof: Can somebody invite Dehede03 into the room? My Buddy List doesn't show him.
geeairmoe2: I hate those calls where they ask you to wait for one of their operators.
ddavitt: Ill try
DavidWrightSr: He's still only on AOL, not on AIM yet.
ddavitt: Oh Ok then
Dehede03 has entered the room.
Sacademy: I did it.
Dehede03: Hey thanx Ginny
Heinleinsmof: He just got called afk
ddavitt: I only had Dehede011
DavidWrightSr: Ah. A different screen name from what I had
ddavitt: Same here
Heinleinsmof: He's back.
ddavitt: Sounds ominous..Hi Ron
Dehede03: Hi folks.
Sacademy: Evening, Ron
Dehede03: Evening Ginny
ddavitt: We are about to start again after a break
Dehede03: I see Jane here also
Sacademy: How's the dancing?
DavidWrightSr: 011 = 03 in binary :-)
Dehede03: Hail, hail, the gangs all here.
ddavitt: I said hi but maybe you weren't back in the room
Dehede03: Haven't been dancing lately but I want to restart soon.
ddavitt: So it is dave!
DavidWrightSr: Does anyone have Sandy's e-mail. She sent it to me, but I forgot to save it and closed the ......
DavidWrightSr: IM window.
Dehede03: Hi, Dave if I don't speak to you Jane will horse whip me.
ddavitt: Why will I?!
ddavitt: That makes me sound so mean...
Dehede03: Maybe you won't but my boxing coach told me there were two things I should never do to my face.
Heinleinsmof: Are we back for topic?
ddavitt: We are looking at Heinlein's predictions
Dehede03: He said that I should never kiss an alligator or mess with a woman
Heinleinsmof: Wise advice.
DavidWrightSr: Is there a difference?
DjedPar: How about a frog?
ddavitt: Where's that horsewhip?
Dehede03: Yes, alligators don't get as deadly.
Sacademy: A frozen one?
Heinleinsmof: You have a monopoly on messing with frogs?
RMLWJ1: Ladies, gents, I'm going to have to call it an evening. EArly shift tomorrow.
ddavitt: I declare this subject incendiary <g>
RMLWJ1: It's been a pleasure.
Heinleinsmof: burning frogs now?
Dehede03: He said I only need to know how to say three things.
DavidWrightSr: Night Leon. Thanks for coming
Heinleinsmof: Aleister Crowley has nothing on you
ddavitt: I'm all sympathy there
fgherman: Good night Leon
RMLWJ1: Thank you for inviting me.
DjedPar: French Canadians are sometimes called frogs. Even the pretty ones
Dehede03: Nite leon
Sacademy: Good night Leon. It's my time to go, too. I'm late tonight.
RMLWJ1: do svidaniya
ddavitt: Night ; thanks for coming
DavidWrightSr: vam tozhe
Heinleinsmof: vsyevo xoroshova
ddavitt: Night SA, see you soon.
RMLWJ1: Nice chattiing with you, ma'am.
RMLWJ1 has left the room.
fgherman: Good night Ginny
DavidWrightSr: Nite Ginny
Sacademy: Urk, Bill, your Russian is poor. Bye
Sacademy has left the room.
ddavitt: I'm still puzzled Ron but , let it go, I'm feeling merciful.
ddavitt: On with the topic before Bill shour=ts at me
Heinleinsmof: I would never shour=ts at you.
geeairmoe2: RAH mentions slang changes. Dan mentions telling a woman he was a Sleeper ...
geeairmoe2: ... and almost is punched out by her husband.
DavidWrightSr: and 'service stations'
ddavitt: He used the word 'kink'
ddavitt: that was why he got hit almost
Heinleinsmof: Oh, frell!
geeairmoe2: A 'host' took your coat and had nothing to do with the birth rate.
ddavitt: I think that is a given; obvious one is gay
ddavitt: We see word shift all the time in a very short space nowadays
ddavitt: Look at the new words coined for the net.
ddavitt: 'net' itself now has another meaning
ddavitt: "flame war' isn't literal anymore
fgherman: Let's not forget spam (as if we could)
Dehede03: Right, I constantly amazed by shifts in meaning.
ddavitt: Good one!
geeairmoe2: The net has another definition of 'host'.
Heinleinsmof: Spam, spam, Spam, Spam, spamity-spam!
fgherman: (bloody Vikings"
geeairmoe2: But I don't like spam!
ddavitt: I think that wasn't a prediction so much...or was it a little slower back in the 50's?
ddavitt: Was language more set in stone then?
Heinleinsmof: No -- there were a lot of additions to the language from the 20's to the end of WWII
fgherman: no no daddio
Dehede03: No, slang changed and swept the nation overnight even back in the fifties.
DavidWrightSr: Not really, but increases in communication will always make language change faster.
Dehede03: In about 48 TV swept the nation and slang spread much faster.
ddavitt: So, that wasn't a prediction then exactly, more an extrapolation
geeairmoe2: Rap Musice phrases are sliding into the mainstream.
Heinleinsmof: I like the way chatrooms are streamlining the language -- afaik.
ddavitt: What about the net and personal computers?Heinlein didn't have that at all
DavidWrightSr: Radio and TV also has had a lot to do in leveling out differences in some dialectical differences
DjedPar: Tower of babel?
ddavitt: Because in 1955 there was no hint of it and it would have required
ddavitt: a total leap in the dark?
Heinleinsmof: The idea of a personal computer was completely out of the paradigm in 1955
DavidWrightSr: Remember 1955. Computers were giant machines and cost millions.
ddavitt: i.e he predicted an oak from an acorn but the acorn had to be there
Heinleinsmof: After all, it wasn't so long before that that IBM predicted there would never be a need for more than
ddavitt: I'm not blaming him; just trying to work it out
Heinleinsmof: 6 computers in the whole world
ddavitt: Heh; easy to laugh now i suppose
fgherman: And even if you have the acorn, you don't know which way the oak will grow
ddavitt: Like the man who said rockets couldn't work in the 1950's
geeairmoe2: The Wright Bros thought planes would only carry mail.
fgherman: Such as lasers to personal CD players
Heinleinsmof: The Starman Jones scenario was in the paradigm -- but the personal computer and internet wasn't
ddavitt: The tree can go off in all directions yes. impossible to preict; too many variables
Heinleinsmof: And the cascade effect from personal computing to computation-intensive areas of math that had been
Heinleinsmof: neglected before --
ddavitt: SJ was simply updating existing navigational techniques; Life on Missisipsi parallel
Heinleinsmof: to chaos mathematics, fractals, Mandelbaum sets, to 21st century science.
Heinleinsmof: Catastrophe theory.
ddavitt: That freebootr pointed out
ddavitt: I don't think in 1955 ANYONE could have predicted what we are all doing here tonight
Heinleinsmof: Everything cascades from everything else -- miss one and a big chunk of the future disappears from
Heinleinsmof: your thinking
ddavitt: Yet people in 1905 might have been able to predict 1955
ddavitt: Becasue they had started to move to cars and planes
Dehede03: Good night everyone, see you sat.
Heinleinsmof: I don't know --the predictions made around 1905 were pretty wide of the 1950 mark.
ddavitt: Night Ron
fgherman: Good night
Dehede03 has left the room.
Heinleinsmof: Has anybody read Ralph124C41+?
fgherman: I still want my flying car
DavidWrightSr: But as Heinlein pointed out in EU, no one could have predicted the secondary results of such things
ddavitt: Which ones? By Wells maybe?
Heinleinsmof: I was thinking more of Hugo Gernsback.
Heinleinsmof: RAlph was about 1911, I think.
ddavitt: Don't know them. Know his name. What did he think then?
fgherman: Prediction tends to be linear
fgherman: History doesn't alway work that way
Heinleinsmof: Jet propelled roller skates.
Heinleinsmof: Wecan give him visiphones; that had been a solid prediction for awhile by then.
ddavitt: We could have them
DjedPar: That's scary.
ddavitt: Do have videophones
DavidWrightSr: That's what the losians used in Citizen.
fgherman: We don't want them
ddavitt: No way!
fgherman: The techs been there for years
ddavitt: Too invasive
DavidWrightSr: Well with computers tied in, you could have the vidophone show only a great image of yourself.
ddavitt: I like privacy on the phone; no need to tidy up
Heinleinsmof has left the room.
fgherman: Cell phones
DjedPar: That's scary too!
ddavitt: I don't have one...don't see the need
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
geeairmoe2: The trick in predicting the future is figuring out what people in that future will see ...
fgherman: Not predicted...look at the impact
geeairmoe2: ... as things indispensible to their copmfort.
ddavitt: Well, I need my computer now; I'm hooked
geeairmoe2: What things can we do without now that will be necessicites in the future.
Heinleinsmof: I just finished up a month in Santa Cruz where I was utterly dependent on my computer.
geeairmoe2: Spell checkers, maybe.
fgherman: The Newton didn't take off, but the Palm Pilot did.
geeairmoe2: VHS instead of Beta.
ddavitt: maybe airconditioning if the global warming continues? <g>
geeairmoe2: Personal, self-contained air conditioned clothing?
DavidWrightSr: Neil Smith's Smartsuits
ddavitt: I will have to go now; I don't know about saturday; if i can't make it, I think dave Silver will host
geeairmoe2: Complete with your Palm Pilot.
fgherman: Good night Jane
Heinleinsmof: Smartsuits! Yeah!
ddavitt: If not, I'm sure you can all do a great job of self hosting!
............. part of log lost .........
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
Heinleinsmof: I show you as being in the room, David.
DavidWrightSr: Well, my shortcut does work, I thought it was off when no one was here.
DavidWrightSr: I guess I'll have to just post what I had up to my getting kicked off.
Heinleinsmof: I didn't think to keep a log -- I got kicked off shortly before that.
DavidWrightSr: Things sure cleared out in a hurry. I wasn't gone more than 2-3 minutes.
Heinleinsmof: Jane left and the party kinda died down.
DavidWrightSr: I'll check with Jane. she usually saves it, but if not, then we're not missing anything too important.
Heinleinsmof: OK -- I've finished all my online stuff, so I'm going by-by,
Heinleinsmof: Have fun.
DavidWrightSr: Good night then.
Heinleinsmof has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:30 P.M. EDT
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