'The Man Who Sold The Moon' & 'Requiem'
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You have just entered room "AGplusone Chat79."
AGplusone:I sent an invitation to two other AOLers on line, her and doc4kidz ....
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: I guess this is the AIM chatroom
TAWN3 has entered the room.
Doc4Kidz has entered the room.
TAWN3: Hi all.
TAWN3: Hi David
AGplusone:Me too ... how's everyone?
TAWN3 has left the room.
dwrighsr: This has to have been one of the highlights of my life. Virginia Heinlein and I having a nice conversation for over an hour. She is certainly great~
BPRAL22169: Lovely person.
dwrighsr: I am going to be extremely disappointed if she doesn't make it into the discussion.
dwrighsr: By the way, I am pleased that you guys are on AIM tonight. I am going to have to miss the Saturday meeting.
BPRAL22169: BTW, is anyone keeping a log? I cannot find a log mnager. Cannot even find the topic in the Help menu.
TAWN3 has entered the room.
AGplusone:Glad you're here then ...
AGplusone:No, we have to save it ... only way. Do it periodically.
AGplusone:welcome back ...
dwrighsr: David. Did you get my query about earlier logs. I am almost finished with everything that I currently have and will be posting them early next week.
TAWN3: I didn't mean to leave
TAWN3: How do I send her a private chat invite to this chat? Can only you do it David?
AGplusone:You can do it. Use control T but you have to make it "AGplusone Chat79"
BPRAL22169: People/invite, I think.
BPRAL22169: If anybody runs across a Singleton huntsman, I can highly recommend it.
AGplusone:anyway, David, you had a great chat!
TAWN3: I think we gave her info overload.
AGplusone:and she'll be on next time
dwrighsr: Snelfrocky spit! Though I might have tired her out, but she said to go on.
dwrighsr: thought not though
BPRAL22169: She is persistent, isn't she!?
AGplusone:Snelfrocky is a great word ... how's everyone been?
dwrighsr: Frankly, it's been a heck of a week. we had a holiday Mondy and all hell broke loose on Tuesday. Servers down. programs not working. everything. But I think that I survived it.
Pnther5o5 has entered the room.
TAWN3: Glad you survived David
AGplusone:Hi, John. Introductions?
Pnther5o5: Sure, I kinda entered by surprise, though.
dwrighsr: I could use a drink. Where's our barmaid?
Pnther5o5: I'd forgotten about it.
TAWN3: I attende Minicon 35 last weekend.
AGplusone:most of the names except doc4kidz should be familar. Doc's from AOL long time, but rarely posts on AFH
dwrighsr: Or is this too late for our English friends?
AGplusone:I think Jani only works on Saturday evenings. I have iced tea here.
AGplusone:Doc: Pnther is John Ringo, a writer, Pnther: Doc is pediatrician
dwrighsr: Same Here
AGplusone:The AIM chat room we're using her is essentially the same thing you have at the Baen page, John?
Pnther5o5: Well, what we do is set up a chatroom called "Baen Bar".
AGplusone:or did I misunderstand last meeting when you mentioned having a page with an AIM room imbeded in it?
Pnther5o5: And make a shortcut to it.
Pnther5o5: Then anytime someone wants to chat, we're all headed to the same place.
AGplusone:I'm going to imbed an AIM room on the webpage we're putting back up ... so all we have to do is find the webpage and click it
AGplusone:and it'll put us in a chatroom called Heinlein or some such.
Pnther5o5: That would work. I don't know how you'd do it but it would work.
AGplusone:so long as we're also signed on AIM
Pnther5o5: Well, just as an example.
AGplusone:They've instructions I downloaded recently
Pnther5o5: Take a look under file at the moment.
AGplusone: So the room would be available ...
Pnther5o5: You'll see something that says "Create Shortcut".
AGplusone: at all times, more or less ....
Pnther5o5: All that we did was one person created the room back in December or so.
Pnther5o5: And now everyone goes there.
AGplusone: I'm on a Mac ... it's different.
Pnther5o5: But your way would work as well.
Pnther5o5: You can't create local shortcuts?
AGplusone: Not under file
Pnther5o5: Your group.
AGplusone: Wish I could! :-(
AGplusone: But we'll get it done. 'twill be simple when it's finished
BPRAL22169: Dave, Ron Harrison would like to be invited in. He's signed on as Dehede11
AGplusone: Okay... Ron has to sign on AIM
BPRAL22169: Will relay.
Pnther5o5: We just wander in and wander out.
AGplusone:That will help. This way I have to keep sending invitations
Pnther5o5: Also very nice to create a particular named room and create shortcuts in case you get dropped.
AGplusone:Or someone has to...
BPRAL22169:: Ron says he's trying to install AIM now.
dwrighsr has left the room.
AGplusone: and it'll work. Because we've yet to have any problem with anyone who comes to us from the AFH newsgroup
AGplusone: Got it
AGplusone: About the two stories today ...
dwrighsr has entered the room.
AGplusone: anyone read a writer named WEB Griffin?
Doc4Kidz: My Dad liked his stuff
TAWN3: Know of him
AGplusone:I'm thinking about the story "Requiem" in particular ...
dwrighsr: I just tried the shortcut method. It seems to work great.
AGplusone:and how really very short and snappy it is ...
TAWN3: Sorry, I'm thinking of duBois
dwrighsr: I finished 'Behind the Lines' about two weeks ago.
AGplusone: Good ... I wondered about the WEB when I first say that name.
AGplusone: His real name is William E. Butterworth
AGplusone: Griffin has a habit of writing very episodic chapters, sometimes they're stand alone short stories, or could be ...
BPRAL22169: Ron says he's having trouble getting AIM to load.
AGplusone: Or he'll insert a very short story into the middle of his novel to make a point ... whenever I read "Requiem" or "Long Watch" and some others of Heinlein
AGplusone: I think how easily suited some of them could be ...
AGplusone: to insertion into a longer novel ...
TAWN3: Kornbluth did the same thing.
AGplusone: and wonder whether it's a conscious technique, or was a by-product of the pulp era
BPRAL22169: That is a "standard" technique of the satire/anatomy.
BPRAL22169: The form requires encyclopedic treatments and digressions.
AGplusone: How do you mean that, Bill?
dwrighsr: I'm reading Poyer's 'The Gulf' and he does the same, I believe
AGplusone: Variations on a theme of a sort?
BPRAL22169: Anatomies view the world in the perspectifve of a single intellectual idea; dramatic requirements need variation -- hence digressions. Lectures -- think of STranger and the lectures on the law of inheritance, etc.
BPRAL22169: Rabelais, the Digression of the Nose.
AGplusone: Uh-huh ... and ...
BPRAL22169: You'll have to be more specific than that!
TAWN3: It is possible to put a seperate thought into a novel, completely unrelated to the novel. A Counterpoint.
AGplusone:an example of those seems different than the example I'm thinking of ... what Tawn just mentioned
TAWN3: The Syndic, by Kornbluth did that.
AGplusone: a counterpoint ... or a footnote reference
BPRAL22169: Well -- the "problem" is that when you do it -- it tends out of the novel genre and over toward the anatomy. But, then again, there are rarely any pure forms.
AGplusone: fer example, Griffin in one of his novels, The New Breed, or the Aviators, has a little story about a native assistant left to take care of things ...
AGplusone: when the whites evacuate the Congo in '64 ...
AGplusone: and the assistant is proud of being left in charge, he and his wife dress up, and take the boss's MG to visit the folks, and run into the Simbas ...
AGplusone: with bloody results.
AGplusone: And in maybe twenty paragraphs Griffin tells you all you need to know about the Simbas for his purposes ...
AGplusone: as well as a story as poignant and touching as The Long Watch
TAWN3: David, It sounds like the Simbas may have been central to the main story?
AGplusone: So when I read some of RAH's shorts ... I wonder whether it's accident or deliberate craft that creates the very short interludes I see in some of today's writers that remind me so much of the short pulp stories created by RAH
AGplusone: Yes. It's all about Stanleyville and the Congo in 1964.
Pnther5o5: The Simbas are the primary aggressor group.
Pnther5o5: But he doesn't waste pages looking from their eyes.
Pnther5o5: That is both good and bad.
Pnther5o5: Very heinlein, though.
Pnther5o5: RAH very rarely looked at things from the enemy's eyes.
TAWN3: Can I give a different example. More of a musical "counterpoint"?
Pnther5o5: It was I feel a particular approach of his age.
AGplusone: You don't develop sympathy for the Simbas ... at all. You just look at that poor clerk and his wife in her best dress, cut to pieces and raped, and the scene is set for Griffin to write what he wants.
TAWN3: That is not really a counterpoint.
AGplusone: Not really ... why I called it a footnote
TAWN3: That is a mood setter.
Pnther5o5: It is actually a deliberate attempt to manipulate the reader.
TAWN3: Here is a counterpoint:
AGplusone: Just as Requiem is a mood setter ... and Long Watch an even better one.
Pnther5o5: But, hey, that's what writers are for.
AGplusone: Again, I agree John
TAWN3: I take Requiem as an extension of TMWSTM
Pnther5o5: It was.
AGplusone: Written backwards tho ... as the Ginny note explained that I posted ...
Pnther5o5: Then it would make TMWSTM more in the nature of a prequel.
AGplusone : The editor wanted an unpublished new story for the collection between "Blowups Happen" and "Requiem"
ddavitt has entered the room.
Pnther5o5: "Contrapunctal" writing was not really RAH metier. He was a very direct writer, more along the lines of Hemingway than Nabokov.
ddavitt: Hi everyone.
dwrighsr: Hi Jane. Welcome
Pnther5o5: Even the few scenes which are not involving a main character are in direct or nearly direct line with his basic plot.
AGplusone: So in a way, TMWSTM is written as a catch all of threads in and out of the two stories ... and there's a lot of throw-ins in the story .... that appear elsewhere ... hi, Jane, ... or may appear later.
Pnther5o5: Rarely does he run multiple plotlines in a novel.
TAWN3: The Syndic is about a future society run by the Syndicate, which is now legit and the government. There are no taxes. Govt. funds are raised by gambling, etc. "Our" psychiatry is seen as voodoo medicine. There are no more schizophrenics, etc. The female Dr, a psychiatrist, has the notion that "our" psych was indeed valid, and suited for the era it was current in, their society simply doesn't have
AGplusone: He's on a line between them, but what he hangs on that line is unusually dense ...
TAWN3: If I may continue?
Pnther5o5: Which is WEB Griffin's great gift, when he gets it right.
TAWN3: problems. She and the male co hero go on to solve a crisis in this syndicate run utopia which is based on the conceot that
the current Capitalist and Marxist societies were repressive to people.
TAWN3: Now, the counterpoint.
TAWN3: About a third of the way through, a chapter starts about a money lender in the Middle ages. It goes on for a few pages and stops. It picks up about halfway through the book, just inserted in. It finishes towards the end.
TAWN3: The money lender has a moral problem. He is discussing usary with the local preist. Usary was a big no no back then
TAWN3: This guy is the forrunner of modern banks, He is illustrating how banks began, and why they were or are necessary.
TAWN3: Other than that, it has nothing to do with the future main story, other than to add a counterpoint by showing a story from the past that banks, and capitalism were good.
TAWN3: That was a counterpoint. If you remove the three inserts, it impacts the future story not at all.
TAWN3: I'm done. Thanks :-)
AGplusone: Okay ... like the Templars ... and a parallel to the main theme of psychiarty ... and why it may or may not be necessary in the world of the Syndic
Pnther5o5: Did it throw you as a reader?
TAWN3: Just at first.
Pnther5o5: I don't argue against the greats, but I wouldn't include it in a story.
Doc4Kidz: Would Tom Clancy be an example of what you're talking about? His novels always have at least 4 or 5 "mini-stories" going on, and shifting back and forth between locales and characters which somehow all come together at the end. BTW, Clancy is a big RAH fan.
Pnther5o5: And most editors would pull it out.
Pnther5o5: That is a "multiple plotline" novel.
AGplusone: Throwing you as a reader is a technique like putting up a red flag sometimes ... something to watch out for here.
Pnther5o5: Yes, Clancy is another excellent example.
Pnther5o5: True, but that is usually best done with a "notable clue" at the beginning of a book. Rather than a completely separate plotline...although....
TAWN3: It is like a flash back in a movie, except this time it is a flashback of a few hubdred years, to unrelated characters. It makes a striking point though. Or counterpoint. I go back to it often. It really stuck in my mind, more so because of how it was insereted in the main story. Totally unrelated, argues the opposite POV.
AGplusone:(I'm not sure if I know many who do it right ... )
Pnther5o5: Anybody here remember a story called "The Black Bag".
TAWN3: I think of that insert often.
TAWN3: Thanks for listening.
AGplusone: No, but GA ... tell us about it.
ddavitt: Medecine bag from the future?
Doc4Kidz: Just READ IT!!!
Pnther5o5: There are two threads.
ddavitt: good story, chilling last lines.
TAWN3: I think the same can be done with some of RAH's stories because he so often expresses polar opposite views.
Pnther5o5: The main thread is the doctor, the other is the managers from the future.
Doc4Kidz: In a collection of Favorite stories of writers
Pnther5o5: Example Tawn?
Pnther5o5: The reason for my question is that I find him to be less expressive of polar views than, say, Clancy.
Pnther5o5: I can't think of an RAH book where he got into the heads of the bad guys. I'm not saying he didn't, I'm saying I can't think of one.
ddavitt: No...few bits in day after tomorrow from POV of the Pan Asian leader.
AGplusone: Closest maybe is "Bill" in Cat ... in a way, but an apologist's way ... really Hazel's rationalizations ....
ddavitt: But not much by him, same with memtok in FF
TAWN3: Well, Government is bad. But, Dr. Kiku and career bureaucrats in Star Beast are the only sane and competent ones. The opposite of Government is bad.
ddavitt: We never "hear" Bill's thoughts though...
AGplusone :... and Hazel is 'proven wrong' ...
Pnther5o5: Can I give a few modern examples?
dwrighsr: 'Roads' are great in the story, but Lazarus calls them dinasaurs later
AGplusone: GA, John
Pnther5o5: It is not that RAH is by any stretch a "poor" writer.
Pnther5o5: But, he is very concentrated on his protagonists overcoming "faceless evil".
Pnther5o5: Rarely does he do what is more common in this day and age, what is in fact _required_ in this day and age.
Pnther5o5: He rarely or never gives "the other guy's side of the story".
Pnther5o5: That is one of his faults and one of his saving graces.
AGplusone: (which he sometimes parodies unmercifully, e.g., Dr. VanReinSmidt in "Life Line")
ddavitt: You don't get that as a given in modern fiction though.
Pnther5o5: It makes his stories very clear, very clean.
ddavitt: Very rare in mysteries for example
TAWN3: He explains the other guys view though. Methuselah's Children, CotG, lots of places.
Pnther5o5: Actually, it is realllllllly tough to get a fiction or SF novel past an editor without examining the other guy's POV.
Pnther5o5: Think of the "gods" on the first world in Methuselah's children.
ddavitt: Fiction isn't a newspaper report; why should a balnaced view be a necessity?
Pnther5o5: And where do you have a rational discussion of _why_ anyone would enslave people on earth?
AGplusone:Some mysteries, Tom Harris, others, do give us their psychological mindset ... Jane.
ddavitt: Don't read that kind :-)
AGplusone:"To Serve Them ... "
Pnther5o5: Another example is ST where he clearly says "nobody can understand them..."
TAWN3: To prevent the reader from doing it him or her self and "proving" you wrong.
ddavitt: Ocasionally get a few paras from murderer's POV but that's about it. Would give too many clues away.
Pnther5o5: As I said, it is one of the things that makes them so clean, so black and white.
ddavitt: In the juveniles I think it would have cluttered up the plot too much.
AGplusone:and today's market doesn't permit that?
Pnther5o5: And, IMO, one of the things that really bugs people who firmly believe that the other side _always_ has a point.
TAWN3: Rational discussion of why enslave Earthlings? The Matrix. But that's a different story. :-)
Pnther5o5: It's actually a wonderful example.
Pnther5o5: One of my pre-readers asked me a question about an "earth enslavement" story.
ddavitt: Though we did get the Wormfaces POV in the trial sequence; but only to show how worthy of death they were.
Pnther5o5: "Why are your characters fighting the aliens?"
AGplusone:Actually, I thought it was to show how much like us they were ...
Pnther5o5: Well, because otherwise they are going to kill and eat all the humans.
ddavitt: Well, i think I see the Wf's as sad now but as a kid I cheered as they got rotated.
Pnther5o5: That was, apparently, insufficient motivation.
AGplusone:How close Kip is to the Wormface viewpoint at his summation ... how much like their defiance Iunio's challenge is ...
Pnther5o5: Are you discussing Matrix?
dwrighsr: Obviously, we don't want to bruise their self-esteem by resisting !!!
ddavitt: We probably had more in common with them that the three galaxy people.
Pnther5o5: HSWT. Sorry.
AGplusone:No ... Have Space Suit--Will Travel
Pnther5o5: But we don't see them plotting _why_ they are doing what they are doing.
TAWN3: Took mwe a second too.
Pnther5o5: We find out their motivation afterwards.
AGplusone:You're right ... it's a given.
Pnther5o5: Example. Clancy.
AGplusone:The Tree Huggers in his last novel?
Pnther5o5: He, right up front in DoH shows you why the zibutsu are doing what they are doing.
Pnther5o5: Or the tree huggers in RS.
Pnther5o5: That is something that RAH at most glossed over.
AGplusone:Heinlein didn't have to bother ... and Clancy has to write 900 page novels
Doc4Kidz:He gives you the opposing POV to ridicule it
Doc4Kidz:(Clancy, that is)
Pnther5o5: Whereas in the modern market, well, you'd have to have Sauron explaining why they are going after the Ring to the Nazgul.
Pnther5o5: True and true.
Pnther5o5: But he also has to for market constraints.
ddavitt: taking this back to harriman; would the story have been able to cope with more viewpoints?
TAWN3: I find RAH occasionally gives the opposing POV to show that all things are one. That is why he quoters Shiva so much. IMHO.
Pnther5o5: No one believes there is "black and white" anymore. Even the most "conservative" editors agree with that.
TAWN3: Matrix proves that wrong.
ddavitt: Maybe a scene with Dixon and charlotte? I'm sure they were working together.
AGplusone:I felt that the clothing was very closely packed on that line between Blowups and Requiem when I read it ... wondered about that.
TAWN3: But so did the Borg, and then they "humanized them, so, your basically right.
Pnther5o5: It's like a disease.
AGplusone:There's a lot of quick sketches in those little chapters ... like the one "GM" wanted their executives to read ....
ddavitt: As you say, the concept of delegation is mentioned quite often
TAWN3: Is it because the cold war is over? No more black and white?
AGplusone:His chapters are very close to didactic essays ... like the juvenile pieces he put in every chapter.
ddavitt: It was a good way of showing _why_ Harriman was so succesful in business; could organise well
AGplusone:E.g., here comes the chapter on world government ... why the US cannot alone claim the Moon.
TAWN3: I loved it.
ddavitt: But no one really trusted him ( except George). all thought he should be more conservative; shows how they misread his character
AGplusone:The story is a novel of character development ... the boyish dream unrealized because he (not just Dixon and George) knows he has to stay behind and get it done.
n1yqh a has entered the room.
Pnther5o5: Folks, I've got thunder and no UPS.
Pnther5o5: Gotta go.
TAWN3: They ended up using him, he started by using them.
TAWN3: See ya Rindgo.
AGplusone:Thanks John ... come back
dwrighsr: So long. Enjoyed your input
ddavitt: See y7ou john
ddavitt: yes, caged lion by the end; like JSB in IWFNE
Pnther5o5 has left the room.
TAWN3: This is common in RAH, things go full circle.
TAWN3: Dancing Shiva Nataraja
TAWN3: Destroyer AND creator.
TAWN3: I see it all the time in RAH, but then again, I'm wierd. :-)
TAWN3: Weird. :-)
ddavitt: Heinlein was making a point too about personal responsibility; H isn't allowed to go to the Moon in Requiem because it will kill him. this should be _his_ choice but he is hampered by the rules.
dwrighsr: Yeah and he couldn't go in TMWSTM because of his responsibility in keeping things going.
TAWN3: But he does so anyway. Another common theme. Govt. should be Libertarian. By necessity isn't, heros break the rules and act as individuals. But not acceptable for the society as a whole. That is why they are heros.
ddavitt: But that was more self imposed by duty.
ddavitt: At the end, he was hurting no one by going to die on the Moon; should have been allowed to go in style.
TAWN3: And that is why Libertarianism is a good goal but not feasible!
TAWN3: Duty. A conflicting value to freedom in many ways.
ddavitt: If he had gone in a proper ship, may not have died....
AGplusone:But can you see the newscast: "Crazy old man kills self in final futile guesture"?
ddavitt: RICH crazy old man....makes all the difference
AGplusone:And the sanctimonious pronouncements before we have the weather ... crazy old coot
ddavitt: It's fascinating to see how much soup he made from requiem...could have gone so many ways with the story that followed.
AGplusone:Instead of "Under the wide and starry sky ..."
TAWN3: It is the responsibility of the leaders to bring the masses along through change, despite their resistance? We are all part of "one" group, and must advance or fall backward as a whole?
ddavitt: What did you think of Sean's post about that?
ddavitt: How likely was it for them to write that and leave it there?
dwrighsr: You know. I almost could believe that that line from Stevenson was the actual inspiration for the story in the first place.
ddavitt: If all one group, then who gets to lead?
TAWN3: The leaders.
TAWN3: It DOES appear to be a constant through history.
ddavitt: So, two groups, leaders and followers
TAWN3: Yes, but one. Yin Yang.
TAWN3: I see no conflict.
ddavitt: that's what they want you to see...<g>
TAWN3: It's all an illusion? :-)
AGplusone:Which brings me back to the husterism aspect of the Moon. Who are our leaders leading?
ddavitt: could be...
TAWN3: No one is leading currently. We need a Harriman!
ddavitt: He'd never be able to do it today.
AGplusone:A reason why he mentioned not seeking government sponsorship besides the 'go home, we'll take over now' aspect is government cannot lead.
TAWN3: Gates. Computers.
ddavitt: too much red tape.
AGplusone:Not democracy, anyway ...
AGplusone:not in peacetime
ddavitt: It would have to be someone with the dream...and the cash.
ddavitt: And a much looser society.
AGplusone:The Spanish King, the English King, the Dutch King, issued charters saying go forth and exploit your discoveries ....
AGplusone:whatever they turn out to be, so long as I get my cut.
AGplusone:And the Raleighs and Drakes and East Indian Companies went forth ...
TAWN3: But, the "moon" was a new horizon in the story. Unregulated yntil Harriman did what he did. Computers were a new horizon, unregulated when Gates and others began. New Horizons are what RAH was writing about, and it is possible with something so new there are no rules. Most other constraints, "special interests" etc, in the "big view" have always existed.
ddavitt: David, can you invite a friend? tom mailloux, or can i do it
AGplusone:Use Control T ... make sure you get the room number "AGplusone
Chat 79" correct
tom mailloux has entered the room.
ddavitt: Hi Tom!
tom mailloux: hi, Jane. *hugs*
ddavitt: You shpould know some people here from afh.
ddavitt: talking about the two harriman stories
TAWN3: Hi Tom.
tom mailloux: Hi, folks.
dwrighsr: Hi. Wow somebody with a normal 'name'
tom mailloux: Sorry, dwr, just a lack of imagination I guess. ;-)
ddavitt: same here.
Doc4Kidz:Mind if we call you "Bruce"? (wrong group)
BPRAL22169: On your parents' part, I guess (sorry-- low flying cheap shot)
ddavitt: Thought you'd gone to sleep Bill....:-)
BPRAL22169: Can't a guy just sit here and think? Sheesh!
ddavitt: Would it really be good to have a harriman in charge though? Could we trust him?
AGplusone:Welcome Tom ... just trying to add your name to the list ... sorry'm late
ddavitt: A tiny bit more grees, bit less vision and he could be on the Moon with missiles
pointed at us.
tom mailloux: jane: depends on what you want. if a profit, maybe not.
BPRAL22169: You can trust him to get his obsession taken care of.
ddavitt: Should it be up to one man I mean?
AGplusone:"I am King of the World" .... <g> and not just the Titanic!
Lucylou98 has entered the room.
ddavitt: Fine for the story but in rl?
BPRAL22169: It always is up to one man. Always.
tom mailloux: better one man than a committee....
dwrighsr: Remember what RAH said in TMIAHM. Some one person is always in charge.
Even when the 'govt' is doing it
Lucylou98: Did I make it?
Lucylou98: Hi, David
ddavitt: I can see you :-)
TAWN3: Hi Lisa. It worked!
Lucylou98: Hi, ddavit
BPRAL22169: Even when there are two, there are two one-mans doing it.
ddavitt: Hi there, know you from the logs!
TAWN3: This is what I tried to do with Ginny before she logged off. Works.
Lucylou98: I know you from the alt.fan place
AGplusone:If you cannot trust a "harriman" then you have to supplant or assassinate him ... but whether he turns out to be Edward Teach or Harry Morgan, isn't it better to go?
ddavitt: I agree it's best to have one person in charge but if that person isn't accountable to anyone?
TAWN3: Harriman was accountable.
ddavitt: harriman had his stockholders to worry about but that was all; he went his own way.
tom mailloux: jane: is that a sly dig at Bill Gates? ;-)
AGplusone:He finally went their way ... he stayed behind.
ddavitt: No, i'm English remember? Gates is an unknown quantity to me. know v little about him.
TAWN3: Ne was accountable to stockholders, boardmembers, the government which he avoided by going offshore, He had A LOT of constraints.
AGplusone:Which is why I said it was a novel of character development.
ddavitt: Or the laws he's supposed to have broken...
ddavitt: Did H develop?
TAWN3: One. Stamps.
ddavitt: Or did he change those around him?
ddavitt: Meant gates,,,
AGplusone:I think he did ... from the start when he provokes that phony fight with Coster over who goes .... weight decides in the end. Harriman was weighty in many ways.
ddavitt: The diamonds were a bit tricky too...
TAWN3: Yes. Diamonds, even folled Dixon.
ddavitt: If he had known he wouldn't get to go, would he have started it?
AGplusone:Heinlein may have always known he probably wouldn't get to go ... he started it.
TAWN3: Good Q.
dwrighsr: I, personally, see him with a single goal, from childhood to old-age. One that he could never fulfill until the very end due to his responsibility, to his mother and siblings, to his wife, to his colleagues etc.
ddavitt: What were his motivations? maybe they started as relqated to his own wishes and then he matured enough to see that it was too vital to be a lost chance
AGplusone:None of the Rocket Boys will go ... except Armstrong, Aldrin and those few ...
n1yqh a has left the room.
tom mailloux: that's a little unfair, Jane. He did have other goals, just not high priority in that story.
ddavitt: What other goals?
BPRAL22169: It may not have been a goal at first.
tom mailloux: ok, making money, having a family, etc.
ddavitt: In the story he made that moving speech about man not being alone
AGplusone:There's no indication he didn't fulfill his goals to his wife, family ... etc., his shareholders, himself--he lived pretty well.
ddavitt: That seems like a larger dream than the initial "I want to go to the Moon and i'll do anything to get there."
Featherz Dad has left the room.
AGplusone:I think his goal became a less selfish one ...
ddavitt: Changed to "we have to get to the Moon and I'll sacrifice anything to see we do."
TAWN3: Became an obsession instead of a dream.
ddavitt: It's implied he lost his wife in moon, if not requiem
ddavitt: through divorce or separation I mean
TAWN3: She died.
ddavitt: Not in Man
ddavitt: Was dead by requiem
dwrighsr: Remember his speech to the crew in Requiem about what people of his generation wanted.
TAWN3: He's a widowert in Requiem.
ddavitt: As i said, i'm sure she was the mole
AGplusone:That could not be true ... they may well have reconciled between the two ... especially after he agrees with what Dixon and Strong want.
AGplusone:Stay behind and keep it going, build it up.
ddavitt: She is portrayed differently in the two stories.
ddavitt: hard to reconcile the two pictures
BPRAL22169: So Harriman was "used up" in the service of his ideal -- an artist, in other words.
tom mailloux: might be a different wife, too.
AGplusone:Maybe he found money to let her build the chateau and stay in the hotel ... I think so, Bill.
ddavitt: No, same name; not very likely
ddavitt: The money would have rolled in after the successful trip
BPRAL22169: Like it's rolling in after Apollo 11?
AGplusone:[btw, when did featherzdad come in?]
TAWN3: I was thinking, how many other people have done something in life, or literature, then wanted to reap the benefits but were persuaded that they now had a higher responsibility?
ddavitt: His gamble paid off; we see him as rich in Requiem
AGplusone:Didn't get to spend that time in Mt. Vernon, did he?
BPRAL22169: He was a rich industrialist in TMIHM
TAWN3: Don't recall.
dwrighsr: He didn't want to be rich. He wanted to go to the moon!
BPRAL22169: No, I think "Requiem" shows an artist used up in service to hsi art -- as Cabell said, "It takes a deal of living to produce a little art."
ddavitt: Apollo didn't set up a base as harriman did
TAWN3: Artist used up. I agree.
tom mailloux: also Apollo was not a commercial venture.
TAWN3: Apollo paid off , nine times over if I recall right.
ddavitt: H built a town, colonised. Far more opportunity to make money when you have a continuing prescence.
AGplusone:Problem is NASA isn't interested in anything these days except staying away from Congress' ire.
TAWN3: Columbus didn't get to exploit the new world either. Or his new spice route. :-)
ddavitt: I'm going to have to go now, getting sleepy, nice to chat, see you saturday.
AGplusone:Those at the top 'manage' not lead.
Lucylou98: Bye, dd.sorry i was so quiet
tom mailloux: put the period after "nasa" in that sentence, AG.
TAWN3: Good night.
AGplusone:Night Jane. thanks for coming. See you Saturday
tom mailloux: 'night jane. *hugs*
ddavitt has left the room.
dwrighsr: Bye Jane. P.S. I showed Ginny your picture on the AFH picture page
TAWN3: Cheaper, better, faster. Which two do you want. You can't have all three.
AGplusone:And we'll get her in the room Saturday ... or bust!
AGplusone:Very nice line from last meeting.
BPRAL22169: A friend makes the point that NASA has the paradigm that space travel is hard, so they act like it's hard; it's not necessarily true -- just the paradigm.
AGplusone:Randy quoted it to Anderson
AGplusone:Poul Anderson took that paradigm in Operation Luna to an extreme very nicely.
AGplusone:Huge bronze horse .... six brooms ....
AGplusone:contrast: frightened kid and a cat
TAWN3: Actually, isn't it faster, cheaper better? I heard it a lot in the news after the Mars fiascos.
BPRAL22169: At the same time NASA was making Saturn V's, Robert Truax was touring around the country with a $50,000 LEO rocketengineered in a back yard.
AGplusone:It is if you plan for failure and figure it's all red ink ...
Lucylou98: I'm trying to help Ron get here....it's ok isin't it?
AGplusone:He has to have AIM 2.0 or 3.0 or better installed and signed on, Lucy.
Lucylou98: he said he had it installed, but i don't think so.
Featherz Dad has entered the room.
Lucylou98: sorry didn't mean to disrupt
AGplusone:You didn't. Hi, Will ....
Featherz Dad: Hi, my computer is acting up
Featherz Dad: looks ok now, though
AGplusone:[I'm trying to think of something nice to say about that lady's cat. Ginny, btw, is going to invite her to give us a chat.]
Lucylou98: Which lady?
Featherz Dad: You mean Diane Dwayne's cat
Featherz Dad: ?
AGplusone:[which means I have to read some of her books ... and I keep telling eveyrone I don't read sci-fi] Yep, her.
Featherz Dad: Diane Duane
AGplusone:Dianne Duane ....
Featherz Dad: wrote So You Want to be a Wizard
Featherz Dad: Night of something with Moon
TAWN3: Oh. Never read her. Never heard of her!
Featherz Dad: which, despite the fact that I can't remember the title, was a good book
Lucylou98: me either Tawn
Featherz Dad: and she writes some Trek boox which everyone decries her for
TAWN3: Is she the one who's cat just died on afh?
AGplusone:[ ... you 'n me, Tawn. Call it expanding our horizons] Yes.
Featherz Dad: Yup.
Lucylou98: Now that's sad:(
Featherz Dad: RAH praised her first book
AGplusone:Anyway, Ginny's come up with a list she's writing to ask to line themselves up for our mutual pleasure and enjoyment. Rosenberg too.
Doc4Kidz:Friends, I'm going to call it a night. Nice chatting with you all. Goodnight.
Featherz Dad: I would like to see Joel on here. Night doc
Doc4Kidz has left the room.
TAWN3: Good night Doc.\
Lucylou98: who else is on the list?
AGplusone:'tis near 8 or 11, depending on the coast. Suggest five minute break .... Spider and several others.
tom mailloux: assume I am saying goodnight, too, when someone leaves. I am in and out of the computer room, taking out the trash. :-\
AGplusone:To wind the cat and put out Poddy ....
TAWN3: Yes. Get Spuder!
AGplusone:Please be back at 1105 PM ET, Bill 'tis yours.
TAWN3: Your at work Tom?
tom mailloux: No, tawn. at home, just busy :)
BPRAL22169: Lucky me
Featherz Dad: five minute break
dwrighsr has left the room.
dwrighsr has entered the room.
TAWN3: Stop the overlord Bill before he squashes us all!
dwrighsr: Well. That's the first time, I've been dropped. Interesting. Came right back in at the same point.
BPRAL22169: heheheh! <evial laugh!>
Lucylou98 has left the room.
AGplusone:[before you know it, he'll be aiming missles at us]
BPRAL22169: If you must drop out and in, during a break is the time to do it. Reminds me, time to save! Save!
tom mailloux: hmm, another Bill with a monopoly... ;-)
BPRAL22169: Where do YOU want to go today, hmmmm?
Featherz Dad: There are so MANY Bills around, I have taken to calling myself Will
tom mailloux: back in a sec, have to clean the litter box and finish taking out the trash. :-(
BPRAL22169: Geeairmoe uses "will," doesn't he?
Featherz Dad: Cleaning a litter box. Good to see someone with a career similar to mine
Lenjazz has entered the room.
AGplusone:Litter box is daughter's job ... why we had her I keep telling her.
AGplusone:Hi, Len ...
TAWN3: Hi Len
AGplusone:I'll send you a log ... catch you up. We just ended five minute break.
BPRAL22169: As long as we're noodling -- I had another headrush this past week: got a subscription for the Journal from . . . (drum roll) . . .
Featherz Dad: hmm. Have a daughter or continue to clean out a litter box. tough choice
BPRAL22169: The Bodleian Library at Oxford.
Featherz Dad: wow
BPRAL22169: My sentiments exactly.
TAWN3: Yeah, Wow!
AGplusone:Wow is right. Will give me an e mail addy if you want to have the log of what you've missed, please.
Featherz Dad: and I DO want to see what I have missed
Lenjazz:Yes...you have mine.
Featherz Dad: Even on Yahoo, I had to use Willl, all the Bill addys were taken
BPRAL22169: Hey -- I just sneaked a look at the log, and (a) it's in html instead of ASCII, and (b) it saves everything from the beginning, not just the last 15-20 minutes. Improvement over AOL, even without a log manager.
AGplusone:Isn't that nice! Btw, is your essay up on the Cabell site yet?
BPRAL22169: No -- it has to go through some approval process first. They haven't even updated their website to show the 2000 winner.
dwrighsr: Hi Len.
TAWN3: David, Bill, what are you talking about?
TAWN3: What essay?
BPRAL22169: I revised it slightly to put in a mention of Anatole France.
Featherz Dad: Nothing showed up in my emal yet. Bill wrote an essay about RAH and Cabell
BPRAL22169: I got word a week ago that a paper I submitted on Cabell and Heinlein won the Cabell Prize for this year.
TAWN3: Ok. Cabell = ?
BPRAL22169: James Branch Cabell. Heinlein was very influenced by him -- especially JOB, GLORY ROAD, STRANGER. Maybe "Unpleasant Profession."
TAWN3: Congartulations Bill.
BPRAL22169: Thank you. That was the other headrush.
TAWN3: Was he an existentialist?
BPRAL22169: No -- he was a Romantic.
Featherz Dad: And RAH liked Anatolle France, at least his story "our lady's juggler"
TAWN3: OK (<shyly wither away>
TAWN3: Define Romanticism in Lit please.
BPRAL22169: I tried to find Anatole France short stories but couldn't.
BPRAL22169: But I did find Penguin Island and La Rotisserie de la Reine Pedauque.
tom mailloux: did he write any? I've only seen novels.
Featherz Dad: Did you ever see the Spider Robinson collection with that story and Elephants by RAH?
tom mailloux: my fave is "Revolt of the Angels"
BPRAL22169: Romanticism as Cabell practiced it was romantic idealism -- we live in the real world but our ideals are from the world of Romance.
Featherz Dad: "Our Lady's Juggler" was RAHs choice of favorite rarely collected stories for Spider Robinson's collection.
Featherz Dad: _the Best of All Possible Worlds_
Lenjazz has left the room.
TAWN3: I have a copy of The Best of All Possible Worlds in storage.
Featherz Dad: wonderful book, "Spud and Cochise" is in it
Featherz Dad: and, of course, "the Man Who Travelled in Elephants"
TAWN3: What is in two weeks?
AGplusone:Great question ... do we want to go on to The Green Hills of Earth?
TAWN3: Let's keep up reading the Future Histories in a somewhat sequential order.
TAWN3: Is GHoE next?
dwrighsr: Agree with sequential as far as possible
AGplusone:And take the first two ... Deliah & The Spoce Rigger and Space Jockey ....
TAWN3: Sounds good to me.
AGplusone:Okay. Done ....
BPRAL22169: Ah, the original "Spoce Girl."
AGplusone:"She it was!" Sing, Heavenly Muse!
BPRAL22169: Oh, my
AGplusone:Anyone ever count the words in the first line of Milton?
AGplusone:Guarenteed that you'll have to take off your shoes
TAWN3: Hey David, (Wright), I saw a post on afh from you that you were posting the Podkayne Meeting logs from about 2 or 3 March. Was that March 2000? Did I miss something somewhere?
AGplusone:And how is that site working for you all, btw?
TAWN3: How about the words in the full title of Molly Brown?
TAWN3: Excuse me. Moll Flanders.
TAWN3: Where the tewrm "Moll" as in a gang moll, undoubtably comes from.
AGplusone:Reminds me ... I have to reread her again ... I think so, Tawn. Historical prototype.
TAWN3: Rememebr the full title?
TAWN3: A full long paragraph
AGplusone:No ... probably skipped it <g>
BPRAL22169: Not until I get a RAM upgrade . . .
TAWN3: That relates her whole life history. :-)
TAWN3: Check it on the web. Trust me. Good trivia to know about.
AGplusone:Fun part of using the interent is you can download something like Paradise Lost and use search for words and find things that would take hours ....
BPRAL22169: Of course, you spend hours finding it and downloading it . . .
AGplusone:Like the names of Alex/Alec's neighbors at the end of Job:ACOJ ... ;-)
dwrighsr: Everything so far has been from 2000, (I think), I have been working on some late 1999 ones, but haven't finished.
TAWN3: Yes. I saw where Carlos has what appeards to be links to full versions of the Russian version of some RAH and perhaps some Portugese as well.
AGplusone:We did do Podkayne, I guess. I have several logs recently that I didn't post, David ... I'll snd them along to you.
AGplusone:Ginny's hired a lawyer to get those sites in Russia down ... there are apparently several other novelist members of SFWA up as well on that site.
Featherz Dad has left the room.
TAWN3: When did we discuss Podkayne? Was I out of town? Brain dead at the time? I thought I was in every discussion, or at least read for it.
tom mailloux: good night, folks. have fun. :-)
AGplusone:3-2, at the end of the juvenile series. Night Tom, thanks for coming
tom mailloux has left the room.
AGplusone:Think it was during that detail you had in DC Tawn
TAWN3: God. I missed it. Anyway, I think Poddy is a Juvie.
TAWN3: Yes, I was thinking the same thing.
TAWN3: But I was there at the end of Jan.
AGplusone:I think Poddy's for the parents.
dwrighsr: I had to admit to her earlier that I had picked up some from Russia and also a US site. I would happily have paid for regular copies, but have no source. She didn't comment, but I expect that was because she was too polite to do so.
AGplusone:So long as you're not selling copies ...
dwrighsr: Nope, Just enjoying them.
AGplusone:It'll be a matter of time before they'll all be on CD roms, I think.
TAWN3: But when her "friends" are downloading.... Must not have pleased her I dare say. No offense David.
BPRAL22169: She is leaning in that direction.
AGplusone:Will help research but we'll read them from books for a while yet.
TAWN3: Most RAH is either in print or available from used bookstores.
BPRAL22169: It's going to be a while before computers replace books.
TAWN3: Again, no offense David.
BPRAL22169: Or on Ebay
AGplusone:None taken. I told her to hire a lawyer.
dwrighsr: With my failing memory, it would be nice to be able to find quotes etc using the computer. These were copies in Russian, not English.
AGplusone:check that: suggested
BPRAL22169: She did. A good one from the space community with offices in Moscow.
AGplusone:Some were in English, that site is like the fabled islands in the Pacific, with pages appearing and disappearing oll over and in English and god knows what else.
TAWN3: I was on Napster the other day. In a chat room. Was commenting on how finding some of this new music made me want to by the CD. One guy thought I was crazy, why pay when free. I told him, cover art, lyrics, original format etc. I think a lot of people are like that.
BPRAL22169: I think it was a matter of economic necessity -- you just couldn't walk into a bookstore and buy a Gainlain book, after all.
TAWN3: I meant no offense the other David, Wright.
dwrighsr: I meant that the ones I downloaded were all Russian translations.
AGplusone:Alexandre P may have helped a little with that too, and MikeC, the guy who monitored our queue for the first segment of the Anderson visit
BPRAL22169: Any comments on the quality of the translations?
AGplusone:sent the lawyer a letter about his search results and what he found appearing and disappearing at odd intervals
BPRAL22169: (Apparently Stranger circulated for years in Zamizdat)
dwrighsr: Pretty good for the most. Although there were some strange omissions here and there for which I could find no apparent reason.
TAWN3: How did Panshin help?
dwrighsr: Self Publication
TAWN3: Hey, Lets get Panshin to join us!
BPRAL22169: underground -- often mimeographed. in the case of Stranger, typewritten with carbons.
AGplusone:Not him, the computer manager on AFH ..... from Russia, post occasionally.
BPRAL22169: What circle of Hell doyou belong in?
dwrighsr: What circle do you want to be banned to?
TAWN3: I saw one country which calls Pinero by another name in a synopsis.
AGplusone:usually about 'puters ....
TAWN3: May have been Brazil.
dwrighsr: Yizroel ?
AGplusone:No, the other one.
TAWN3: Zamzdat? wat iz dat?
dwrighsr: Literally 'Self Published'
BPRAL22169: Underground in the old Soviet Union -- people passed mimeographed or typed mss from hand to hand.
dwrighsr: In COTG, for example, the entire scene with Thorby and Captain Krausa concluding the deal with the Losians was cut out.
dwrighsr: just skipped
BPRAL22169: I think A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich circulated zamizdat for years.
TAWN3: Alpha 66 report on Nigtline regarding Elian Gonzalez. Interesting (They did the Bay of Pigs.)
AGplusone:Is the one I was talking about ....
TAWN3: Oh. Zamzidat is self published? Means, not endorsed by the Soviets? A tradition that will be hard to break!
AGplusone:Why would they do that ...
BPRAL22169: Do you know, I cannot click on that link -- the scroll bar pops back to the 60% mark.
dwrighsr: Actually, it's samizdat
BPRAL22169: That looks right.
AGplusone:(I'll watch for that Alfa 66 report tonight, Tawn. Thanks for mentioning it.) Why would they cut the exchange of children?
AGplusone:Which, incidentally, I never really thought about as symbolic of anything ....
AGplusone:Have you tried to reduce the size of the window, Bill?
dwrighsr: You got me. And while I am at it why would the German version of 'If this Goes ON' change Peter van Eyck's name to Peter Van Doorn?
BPRAL22169: It doesn't appear to be able to reduce -- I can reduce the size of the chat room window, but not just the text window.
AGplusone:Hm ... dunno. My uncles an Eich ...
AGplusone:not an Eyck ... German rather than Dutch
BPRAL22169: Oh, wonderful -- now it's halfway up instead of 60%.
TAWN3: No no no. David, they were part of the security round the house. All the INS intel is coming out. Or at least part. They had good reason to fear guns and violence. Five bodyguards in the house, four had current concealed carry permits. Activists with violent
criminal histories in house in back. Alpha 66 was doing third level of security. There were a couple of other layers as well.
AGplusone:Increase the memory in the application?
BPRAL22169: Scratching of head. Dunno.
AGplusone:Well, Randy Jost mentioned that he saves logs in segments .... maybe that's one reason. I've been able to grab it all on the Mac, all 3 hours.
TAWN3: One of my SF LTCs was in the Bay of Pigs Invasion. I'll tell you about it off line (out of chat).
AGplusone:Okay ... I knew a few ....
BPRAL22169: My log seems intact for the whole three hours also. On AOL the log manager would save the whole thing, but just using the Save As during the chat would only get about the most recent 20 minutes.
BPRAL22169: I.e., there seems to be a buffer, and it would get the buffer contents.
AGplusone:We'll have to learn the tricks of this thing ... but I imagine we'll do okay. They've got a beta out with voice capability now for Windows I understand.
TAWN3: One day we will be chatting in voice.
AGplusone:Anyhow ... what does Eich mean in German?
TAWN3: Ahh, Back to subject (kind of). Some words have loaded meanings in other languages.
AGplusone:Unless they were worried about the name Eichmann .... what's the date of translation?
AGplusone:And what does Doorn mean?
TAWN3: I have heard a good reason for the German change before, at least as far as the villians in Rocketship Galileo, but that is a no brainer.
AGplusone:I can agree with that ... I've heard that too about Galileo.
dwrighsr: Oak? I'm not sure and don't have a dictionary. 1964. Doorn. Haven't the foggiest. Yeah. all references to Nazis were totally removed, they were just simply bad guys who happened to be German. Nothing about masterrace or any of that
dwrighsr: It could have been the Eichmann connection.
AGplusone:Far fetched, but possible I suppose ....
TAWN3: What nationality id=s the name Heilein? Or it's origin?
BPRAL22169: Not as farfetched as an editor worrying in 1941 that Ambrose Bierce would show up and sue them and Heinlein for including him in "Lost legacy." Bavarian, I believe -- it's a southern German Catholic name.
AGplusone:Of course they could have called the character von Staffenberg ....
TAWN3: Thought it was German.
AGplusone:Something like master of a small house
AGplusone:... is its meaning.
TAWN3: Are we dying down?
TAWN3: I'll stay.
dwrighsr: Well, the 'lein' is a suffix which means 'small' or 'little', I don't know the origin of
'Hein', but it is the same, I believe, as that in 'Heinrich'.
TAWN3: Good bet.
AGplusone:I think so ... five minutes and Dwright turns into punkin
AGplusone:It means "head of house" or something very close to that.
AGplusone:'house' possibly in the sense of family
dwrighsr: I'm glad I was able to get here tonight, as I won't be able to attend Saturday.
BPRAL22169: We don't seem to have stumbled over ourselves and stepped on each others' posts so much this session.
TAWN3: Hey, did you hear the news about the female Valedictorian who showered in the nude in the boys locker room afetr extracurricular activities to make a political statement? Not a joke. She did it while 5 highschool boys in the shower looked on. They removed her Valedictorian staus and suspended her, as well as banned her from intramural sports or something very similar. I heard it on the radio earlier.
BPRAL22169: It was on the news this am
TAWN3: So, head of house is like Lazarus? Just a thought.
TAWN3: BTW, I will be the proud owner of a domain soon. A couple to be exact. Will take some time to get them up though.
AGplusone:Well, punkin time ... been a good meeting on this Mesh! As Poul called it in Luna.
TAWN3: I will let you have their names once I know they are mine. Good ones!
AGplusone:Congratulations ... did Jon Ogden get back to you, Tawn?
AGplusone:Thursday, April 27, 2000, 9:03:39 PM, PDT, closing log.
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