Since The Heinlein Society is sending out copies of Glory Road,
this seemed an appropriate topic for our discussion group this month.
So no excuses about having your copy in storage! Not a member
of the Society? Still no excuse: go to http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Glory Road was Heinlein's only sword & sorcery novel, though it had
a twist. George Scithers, at one time a student of Heinlein's brother
at West Point, published a leading fantasy-oriented fanzine in the
1960s. Scithers at some point wondered "what does the hero of a
novel do once the adventure is over?". In answering this, Heinlein
the lead of James Branch Cabell, who said that this form of his
brand of comedy had three acts: the set-up, the resolution, and then
what comes after. In Glory Road, the emotional satisfaction is in the
adventure, not the attainment.
If you would like to be added to a mailing list to get an email
for the readers group meetings, please send your request to
David Wright at dwrighsr _at_ alltel.net.
The last two readers group meetings have been fairly well attended
on Thursday nights, but not on the following Saturday afternoons,
so you may notice that there's no Saturday discussion schedule for
If you'd really like to continue having the Saturday meetings, please
drop me a line at morganuci _at_ gmail.com.
The major one, nevertheless, presents a clear example of Korzybski's
principle of non-identity, "the word is not the thing", and the fact that
all of our language represents 'abstractions' which should correctly match
the structure of the 'real-world' event that it describes. Heinlein notes
that the language used "stipulates ... the concept of identity", thus
automatically being 'conscious of abstracting', another important GS
She looked at it and her pupils dilated. "Is-was sword destroy construct
guard Egg?" ("Is this sword now present the direct successor in space-time
sequential change, aside from theoretical anomalies involved in between-
universe transitions, of the sword used to kill the Never-Born?" The double
tense of the verb, present-past, stipulates and brushes aside the concept
that identity is a meaningless abstraction-is this the sword you actually
used, in the everyday meaning, and don't kid me, soldier, I'm no child.)
"Was-is," I agreed. ("I was there and I guarantee that I followed it all
the way here, so it still is.") [Heinlein GR, p.223]
What has been remarkable in _Glory Road_ is a certain ability Oscar
Gordon possesses. As his mother put it, "sonny has always had a bump of
direction." As Oscar notes, the main reason he kept being promoted to
corporal and shoved in a sergeant's spot was patrols led by him were
pretty certain not get lost and those who survived the object of the
patrol came back to where they began, a comforting thing to city boys
who didn't want to be in the jungle in the first place.
Oscar says this aspect is akin to the PSI subjects (aka ESP) studied at
Duke; but is it? Most of what was studied at Duke has been eventually
debunked even though ESP studies are said to have continued to produce
statistically significant results, in spite of improvements in
methodology designed to eliminate fraud or flaws.
But an "internal compass," so called, is "The hypothesized mechanism
that allows organisms to orient themselves so as to proceed in the
proper direction during long-distance movements such as migration. In
birds, several internal compass systems have been proposed, but none are
well investigated." Sibley, D.A.: _The Sibley Guide to Bird Life &
Behavior_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2001.
"Not well investigated" as a label isn't very helpful. What have
investigations shown about this so-called "bump of direction" that
birds, or animals and certain humans are said to possess?
Some claim this is a magnetic orientation; and the discovery of magnetic
particles (magnetite) in human brains suggests that humans may be
sensitive to magnetic fields. However, while some studies report that
humans can point to north when they have limited cues, others find no
statistically valid evidence. Humans definitely prefer visual cues, as
Oscar does, noting the location and direction of the sun.
How the brain processes magnetic information remains unclear. Some
species have particular brain areas that respond to magnetic
information, and there may be nerve cells in those areas that detect
changes in the magnetic field. In a theoretical paper, Walker, M.M.,
Dennis, T.E., Kirschvink, J.L.: The magnetic sense and its use in
long-distance navigation by animals, Curr Opin Neurobiol 12, 735-744
(2002), proposed that animals may be able to detect magnetic field
information due to specialized nerve cells. Similar to how we have
specialized nerve cells for senses such as vision and olfaction, Walker
et al. hypothesized that there are nerve cells that react to different
characteristics of the magnetic field such that the animal can respond
behaviorally. Such cells are called magnetoreceptors. We can think of
them as an internal compass that is hooked up to the body such that the
needle of the compass moves with the changing magnetic field. When the
needle is displaced, it can trigger the activation of other cells that
help the animal sense where to direct its movements.
Experiments with pigeons and migrating turtle hatchlings using magnetic
fields that disrupt the direction they fly or swim seem to support this
theory. When the magnetic field is disrupted by putting magnetic coils
around their heads or by gluing magnets to the back of their necks,
pigeons cannot return to their loft. Navigation is also disrupted when
pigeons must journey through anomalies, which are naturally occurring
magnetic disruptions. When the magnetic field surrounding the swimming
hatchlings is reversed, the hatchlings change their swim direction such
that it matches the swim direction of their migratory path. More
recently it was shown that when hatchlings are exposed to magnetic
fields that mimic different natal beaches they redirect their swim
direction to maintain the same migratory path.
This seems, to me, to indicate a little more validity to a claim of
existence of this quality than most psi abilities.
Still, I've never experienced it, or known anyone I trust claiming to
have it. Whenever I went into the bush I paid a lot of continuous
attention to the map, landmarks and terrain, and compass.
Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually
reliable "bump of direction"?
One of his first complaints during the onset of Alzheimer's was an
apparently rather sudden loss of this sense of direction.
I generally "know" which way is North but I have, on occasion, been very
wrong about it, even when very sure. I'm inclined to ascribe the sense
of direction to a sort of inertial navigation system which can become
confused if one moves without paying attention.
FWIW, I've got something of that ability. I usually know which way is
north, have no trouble reading (or drawing) maps and can frequently
find my way back to a place that I've been to *once* several years
My "bump of direction" is not nearly as well-developed as Oscar's, but
it takes *a lot* to get me lost, and even then I can usually find my
way back to my starting point. The one thing that can foul me up is if
I fly somewhere and land after dark. Then I'm totally befuddled about
which way is north, at least until the next day when the sunrise tells
me where east is.
In despite of that omission; I suggest the *main* reason Oscar's
talent was important in the Quest for the Egg of the Phoenix was
that he used it throughout. He used his talent in negotiating the
forest of the rats and hogs and later used it to "aim" Star's arrow
of flight to their encounter with the dragons. Most notably, of
course, it enabled Oscar to distinguish and follow the True Path to
the Egg through the Mile-High Tower of the Never-Born, the Eater of
It's like this, Rufo: I was just thinking on how to be this so-called
Heinlein "competent man" and I started listing things about them in my
"Slipstick" Libby has this intuitive sense of the relationship between
numbers in mathematics and mathematic concepts.
Max Jones has an eidetic memory.
Four-year-old Buster Stone cheats at chess by reading minds.
Potiphar Bream senses fluctuations and relationships in function between
seemingly unrelated data which enables him to predict the future.
Kip Russell speaks Latin and mixes a mean ice-cream sundae.
Thorby Baslim knows how to pick pockets.
Four-year-old Woody Smith cheats at chess by moving your pieces if you
look away at an opportune time.
Fourteen-year-old Maureen Johnson is precocious (in at least two ways).
Fourteen-year-old Marjorie Baldwin was physically and mentally enhanced.
Two-thousand plus year old Lazarus Long lies a lot (waddya expect of a
grown-up four-year-old cheater at chess).
Zebidiah John Carter is the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man" and
plays pretty good poker.
And, good ol' Evelyn Cyril Gordon not only has that "bump of direction,"
he's also the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man," plays decent
poker, and he lacks aichmophobia.
Now if you've got a bump of direction that's going inevitably to put you
right between the two red eyes into the sights of your enemy, every
time, is it a plus, or minus, or metaphor, here?
Shucks, right there is a "telling detail" that destroys any
possible suspension of dis-belief while reading this otherwise
charming novel: It's been my experience that in real-life, very few
teen-aged males actually follow their parents' advice to the extent
demonstrated by Kip.
Oscar's bump takes him to where he, the Hero, needs to be to deal
with his task. It's one of the handy accessories included in his
hero-ing bag o' tricks.
Coulda been "bred" into him by Her Wizzy's instructions - like the
physical training obtained from playing football and the fencing
Zeb appears indistinguishable from your idle favored son (unless you
know he had to win that first million to get the more-than-matching
inheritance), taking his ease in a sinecure his own university donation
created, grazing among the limited pool of academia squares, unaffected
in an unchallenged, undistinguished and unfocused on any goal status
other than present gratification. He's as much a dilettante as anything
else and, certainly, as unrealized as his social hostess, Sharpie, who,
I'd suspect, keeps him on her guest list mainly as a pleasing potential
Compare him to Oscar. Oscar knows what he is and very early on realizes
what he is not. Oscar knows his destiny; he just doesn't know how rocky
that road is going to be.
Compare him to his cousin Ed, with whom he is confused by Deety and
Jake. Ed was focused, accomplished, but just didn't know they were out
to get him and is taken from the stage without our ever knowing just how
good he danced or was.
What made Zeb tick? What, besides some modest intelligence and skills
many young men (perhaps most of the midshipmen and junior officers
Heinlein grew up among) possess?
Keeping in mind that she's described as a top-notch party arranger*,
one might speculate that Zeb is on her "A-list" for obvious reasons:
friendship (and a potential bouncer, if things get _too_ out of hand),
conversationalist, dancer, and potnetial practical joker. And
possibly someone to hide behind, if a guest gets _too_ ardent - I'm
pretty sure that Zeb would have played right along if Hilda had played
the "I'm taken, sir" card.
*Holy cats, I'm slow. It just now occurred to me that RAH was, by
accident or (more likely) intent, foreshadowing Hilda's eventual
Captaincy. Above all, a commander must be able to manage skill sets
and personalities among his subordinates - as well as the various
strangers his command interacts with - a skill/talent which Hilda
Corners has been quietly honing for years by way of party planning.
In short, Zeb Carter isn't a "hero" - he's a "sidekick". Sidekicks
can occasionally take the lead (Spock, f'rex, or Tonto, IIRC), but
they cannot "keep the story going". Without an immediate crisis, left
to his own devices, he looks for a comfortable place to settle down,
and things to keep himself amused - which is exactly where we find him
at the opening, and right where they end up at the "false ending*",
i.e. Snug Harbor II. (*as in false dawn", not implying anything fake
Contrast Oscor Gordon:
Gordon begins his Quest in exactly the same role, i.e. "sidekick" to
Star, but eventually devolps a sense of purpose, and shifts roles to
"hero"- which role he retains until the end. Left without another
Quest (since, in this context, completing quests is his hero's
purpose), he becomes more and more emotionally unstable. He finds his
way out, though, and departs upon a quest or two: A quest to connect
with his former life, and then a quest to find the next quest. At the
end of GR, Oscar Gordon is without question, a Hero.
(Please note that "hero" is a multi-valued term, and I am using it
here in the iliterary sense impled by the thread, not in the "he's a
hero! He ran into a burning building and saved the lives of those
children!" or "He's a sandwich!" (VMS came closest - but he was a
There, I've let my ignorance run wild for considerable wordage, giving
all and sundry plenty of Tenessee windage to tell me how wrong I am.
Superb analysis. Had I the skills, I woulda said that.
When last heard from, the questions between Mutt and Jeff were these,
all involving "Heroing Packages":
" ... I had fallen into a book.
"Well, I hoped it was a success and that the writer would keep me
alive for lots of sequels. It was a pretty nice deal for the hero, up to
this chapter at least. There was Dejah Thoris, curled up in her sleeping
silks not twenty feet away.
In _The Number of the Beast_ Heinlein dropped all four of his heroes
"into a book" or several. [Or stories potentially several orders of
magnitude higher than simply "a" book.]
Among other things we have to look forward to this centennial year of
Heinlein is the fact that the archives of the UC Santa Cruz library are
going on line (and will be on line by July 7). Included among them, as
the trustee's letter informs us, will be "the unpublished original
ending to _Number of the Beast_.
What do you suppose the original adventures Heinlein brought Oscar back
to experience included?
And what does the fact that he changed the ending to one that brought
Zeb and Oscar together portend?
2. (Andrew Jackson) Libby Long & Dejah Thoris Burroughs Carter Long
When the Hero & Mrs. Gordon arrive at the First Centennial Do,
they are mistaken [at the distance of half a kilometer] for Zebby &
Hamadryad ISHTAR Weatheral Long[!].
1. Not everyone mentioned in the Catalogue of that L'Envoi is
destined to participate in the Further Adventures of the Senior and
His Tribe - May they ever increase!
2. Assuredly RAH was familiar with and MAY have been somehow
obliquely referencing Rostand's
Go To Postings
Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room "heinleinreadersgroup."
morganuci: Hi David
LVPPakaAspie: This is off topic for Glory Road, but the
following site should be of interest to any Heinlein fan
ichiban slug: my heart speeds up & my wrist twiches
automatically like when gorden is describing being toyed with by his
ichiban slug: hullo mr. david, bethany pepper here.
AGplusone: A pleasure
AGplusone: "And then, as I end the refrain, thrust
home!" (How many of us have the Hooker translation?)
AGplusone: What are we answering, Tim? And to where?
ichiban slug: mr. morgan has asked no leading questions
yet mr. david
morganuci: Sorry, I had to run to check on dinner.
morganuci: We were just getting warmed up, so I hadn't
asked any leading questions yet.
ichiban slug: nod
DocJam00 has entered the chat room.
morganuci: Hi Robert.
AGplusone: Hi, Robert ... Glory Road arrive out in the
ichiban slug: ->wonders if it usually a stag affair here...
DocJam00 has left the chat room.
ichiban slug: joys of dial up?
AGplusone: What would Oscar do without Her Wisdom?
morganuci: You mean, if she never showed up on the island?
ichiban slug: biz. degree, 2 car garage, 2 marriges 1.5
DocJam00 has entered the chat room.
ichiban slug: *wave*
xarophti has entered the chat room.
morganuci: Maybe. Or maybe he'd get into trouble (e.g.,
drugs) and his life would go down the toilet. I think a hero needs
LVPPakaAspie: General comment: I distrust ANY
government where one person has unchecked power. Sometimes you get
Her Wisdom. Other times you get Caligula, Adolph Hitler, Ivan the
Terrible, and such.
ichiban slug: no trouble for our oscar...he had a spine...
AGplusone: welcome again ... law degree (they make the
money), 5 bedroom home in Valley--heroic sized family.
xarophti: Good Evening, all.
ichiban slug: he might have 'scotch & highballed' away
his evenings though...
ichiban slug: eh?
LVPPakaAspie: Well, ok, I distrust any government, but
one with a single person having unchecked, unquestioned power I
distrust more than usual.
AGplusone: Hi, Xarophti
ichiban slug: but there's the catch, she was not 'one
xarophti: Hi. I'm new to the group.
ichiban slug: *wave* me too!
JJ Brannon has entered the chat room.
ichiban slug: i'm bethany pepper, down in mississippi.
xarophti: (glad I'm not the only newbie in tonight)
AGplusone: We're discussing Glory Road generally ... and
assembling. Hi, JJ, discussion of Glory Road ...
J Brannon: Coinkadentally I received a copy of that
AGplusone: wadda surprize!
ichiban slug: read it yet mr. [?]brannon?
morganuci: We wanted to make sure you had a copy for the
xarophti: I'm Shelly, in Pennsylvania. Yes, I know the
topic for the evening. I was reviewing my (battered, old) copy for
the originally scheduled date.
DocJam00 has left the chat room.
ichiban slug: lol!
J Brannon: Chance favors the prepared mind.
xarophti: beats cold shoulder!
J Brannon: Oddly, I was reflecting on Scar's
preparation as a child.
J Brannon: The day before I received the book.
AGplusone: We usually start with a question from our
moderator about the topic ....
J Brannon: Speaking of prepared minds, Her Wisdom left
as little to chance as possible.
georule1861 has entered the chat room.
J Brannon: But I seek the answer to a mystery plaguing
me from the first time
ichiban slug: *wave*
LVPPakaAspie: Are you the moderater tonight David?
J Brannon: I read the novel:
J Brannon: Who wrote the dust-jacket copy?
AGplusone: Hi, Geo, just starting Glory Road. Nope,
Aspie, just here ... . (Probably David Hartman arranged for it, JJ).
J Brannon: "A tougher Tolkien or a more urban Burroughs"
LVPPakaAspie: Who is our moderator tonight?
morganuci: I guess I am. OK, how does Glory Road fit in
with the rest of Heinlein's works? Is it Science Fiction?
AGplusone: Funny he should mention Burroughs ... Deety
and Edgar Rice
ichiban slug: mr.morgan i do belive
georule1861: It's sort of new gen.
georule1861: Kind of Zelazny or Brust-ish.
georule1861: Fantasy dressed up as SF.
AGplusone: I think it's another beginning of the World
As Myth ... Oscar finds himself fallen into a book.
J Brannon: This is the novel he wrote in six days from
receiving a postcard?
xarophti: (oddly, someone had mentioned Scar's
preparation as a child, and I was comparing in my mind Scar's
childhood preparation for his adventures with Zeb's...)
ichiban slug: hmm, i say yes science fiction.
georule1861: My theory is it is the #1 guilty
(unnecessarily) pleasure of Heinlein fans.
georule1861: I've read from this book at a wedding!
georule1861: (i.e. as part of the ceremony)
AGplusone: The "I wanted ... " passage?
ichiban slug: galactic-multi unerverse ruler, 4th
demension, space travel, laser or light based weapons...
georule1861: The very one, David.
georule1861: That passage is as quotable Heinlein as it
AGplusone: It would fit.
morganuci: Was it written in 6 days?
georule1861: The Giffords wedding, if anyone cares.
morganuci: (Giffords' wedding) Completely appropriate then!
AGplusone: 'splain who the Giffords are, Geo.
morganuci: I hear you, David
AGplusone: Geo is bounced (despite showing in the room,
morganuci: Must be. Jim Gifford wrote the Heinlein
Reader's Companion, a very useful reference work. Other connections?
AGplusone: The Giffords and a couple who met on the old
Heinlein prodigy group
georule1861 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: and actually got married as a result ... Geo
and Deb Rule are another couple who did the same.
Ron0859 has entered the chat room.
georule1861 has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: (as Geo fights his way back, I was explaining
the similarity Jim and Audrey and you and Deb have)
georule1861: I introduced them.
AGplusone: Hi, Ron, welcome tonight. We're discussing
Glory Road and the "I wanted ... " passage.
Ron0859: sounds good. tried getting in earlier but ran
into "technical problems"
AGplusone: Geo was telling us he read it at a wedding of
a couple who met on Internet discussing Heinlein in old Prodigy group.
georule1861: But two of the most different Heinleiners I
know love that passage deeply.
georule1861: Gifford and Chuck Coffin.
georule1861: And that's pretty much two ends of this
group of loonies we love.
AGplusone: Why does Oscar love the "I wanted ... "
georule1861: You mean Chuck?
AGplusone: Is he an unrealized romantic like Roderick
Walker, living anacronism?
ichiban slug: he could see clearly what HE wanted
rather than what he had been 'sold' as his lifes ambition?
DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: (I know Chuck, and why--got drunk with him in
Chicago couple years ago).
georule1861: He was created, of course. That's clear.
georule1861: Nor was he the only one.
ichiban slug: *wave* to mr. wright!
DavidWrightSr: Hi folks sorry I'm late.
georule1861: He's the successful end of the breeding and
morganuci: Evening David
ichiban slug: ridiculous mr.rule, positively
xarophti: Good Evening.
georule1861: He's not just the romantic. He's the
frustrated romantic, which is even more powerful.
AGplusone: That's nothing more than Her Wizzie telling
the guy out on point that he's a superman -- eine volk, eine leder,
georule1861: You think?
ichiban slug: a fencing master does not make a person
recognize 'live' steel when one holds it.
georule1861: I think Star is much too much of a
pragmatist to not have a few more arrows in the quiver.
AGplusone: Why not, Geo? Raise his morale somehow.
ichiban slug: i don't doubt you there mr. rule
AGplusone: Who believes what Her Wizzie sez? Rufo doesn't.
georule1861: Well, there is that.
ichiban slug: it was in a convo somewhere that she would
spend as much time as needed to find the hero who would be successful
AGplusone: She's probably been lying to him since she
stole his nice new candy sucker in the cradle.
J Brannon: There were back ups. Who doesn't believe
Her Wisdom didn't pick the best whenher life was on the line for the
first, maybe last shot?
AGplusone: Her Wizzie is searching for an egg, Dejah
Thoris laid them--what's the difference?
AGplusone: How do we know Oscar isn't the last shot?
ichiban slug: the trials before the tower test the
mettle of the sword a bit as well as put an edge on it?
georule1861: That part is clear.
J Brannon: Rufo says as much to Scar.
ichiban slug: nod
AGplusone: And it's not all a bad dream, and he's laying in the mud, bled out,
while the chopper blades go, "Wup, wup, wup ... "
georule1861: This doesn't mean they hadn't been scouted in advance however.
morganuci: It could be a dream, but then, what's the point of the book?
MizzezHappy has entered the room.
ichiban slug: she sang to the doral oscars exploits from a child onwards,yes?
AGplusone: What's the point of any "ficta" as Heinlein, and Hazel, call them?
ichiban slug: ficta?
JJ Brannon: RAH's stroke of genius is all that transpires after the Ring of the
Nibelung is retrieved
toxdoc1947 has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Everybody welcome Sarah(MizzezHappy) She has been trying to get
my attention but I've been offline.
JJ Brannon: Howdy, Sarah!
MizzezHappy: I got lost on my way in
toxdoc1947: hello everyone
xarophti: Hello, Sarah
MizzezHappy: Hello everyone
ichiban slug: *wave*
AGplusone: Yeah, the pun Hazel makes in Number of the Beast (both versions),
AGplusone: Hi, Mizzez
NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Jim.
ichiban slug: what were you sold as your 'dream'?
georule1861: Why Cyrano, btw?
georule1861: There are other great swordsmen.
georule1861: For the poetry?
toxdoc1947: I'm a fencer - anyone else?
AGplusone: (for the Hooker translation), for the fact that the character wrote
the first SF in French ...
ichiban slug: ->jumps up & down i am!
AGplusone: first trip to the moon?
morganuci: Sorry David, you lost me.
toxdoc1947: then you're familiar with the mind-set of a competitive fencer
georule1861: Ah, I'd forgotten that part.
xarophti: Is the pun you mean "The First Centennial Convention of the
Interuniversal Society for Eschatological Pantheistic Multiple-Ego Solipsism"?
AGplusone: And a house fell on his head?
AGplusone: That one, zarophti.
ichiban slug: <grin> wanna find out?
xarophti: (sorry, it took me a minute to find it in "Beast")
toxdoc1947: are we digressing from glory road?
AGplusone: Actually, a discussion by Hazel before then, when four in Number
realize that why they're going where they're going is because of their creative
georule1861: The other thing I've always felt about this book, is that it starts
RAH's habit of kicking his previous works in the shin on purpose.
ichiban slug: nod, lotsa tangents...
AGplusone: And foreseeing his later ones.
toxdoc1947: ahhh - business as usual
morganuci: Geo, can you elaborate on that?
georule1861: Maybe kicking his previous books is not quite right. . . maybe
kicking those who put them a bit high on the shelf.
ichiban slug: if they were within reach of my point i could herd these
georule1861: Well, Tim, I read Heinlein, particularly in that one interview, as
being a big believer in 'there are no final answers"
AGplusone: problem is, each cat has as sharp a point, on each paw, times five.
morganuci: Stranger in particular (put on a high shelf)?
georule1861: Stranger, Trooper, Moon.
morganuci: Moon wasn't written yet
ichiban slug: yup but my claw is 35"....
georule1861: No, but he kicks Moon later.
georule1861: In CAT
AGplusone: The Omni interview?
morganuci: Yes, right.
toxdoc1947: ichi: epee?
georule1861: So everyone who thinks that Trooper glorifies the bloody infantry
gets a bit of comeuppance in Glory Road.
ichiban slug: schallgewr i duel in the sca now
JJ Brannon: RAH was more interested in the right kind of questions than "a"
georule1861: That goes right back to the beginning too.
georule1861: Listen to the Denvention speech.
georule1861: it's clear.
toxdoc1947: I'm still in the olympic fencing style arena
georule1861: He wants you to think, not think for you.
DavidWrightSr: Does anyone have a log upto when I got in that they could e-mail
morganuci: I'll save the log and email it to you, barring disconnection!
Krin135 has entered the room.
Krin135: evening all...ltnc
morganuci: Someone mentioned 6 days---was this book written that fast? If so, is
that Heinlein's speed record??
LVPPakaAspie: 28 days, if I remember right.
NuclearWasteUSN: Hello Chuck
morganuci: 28's more believable. Door into Summer was supposed to be 14?
LVPPakaAspie: I haven't heard anything about Door.
Krin135: NW, howdy
morganuci: The story was, their cat kept wanting to be let out, but there was
snow on the ground outside every door.
morganuci: Ginny said he (she?) was looking for the door into summer. Robert
jumped up and said "Don't say another word!", rushed off and produced Door.
georule1861: Gifford says 23 days in ARC
georule1861: For GR, that is.
morganuci: (he/she is the cat, that is)
morganuci: Ready for a new question?
georule1861: Go for it.
morganuci: Was Star ever really interested in Oscar, or was she spending just a
second (from her perspective) with him only as a means to manipulate him into
doing her bidding?
LVPPakaAspie: She would not have started him on the long life treatment program
if that were the case.
ichiban slug: i think she loved him in her own strange primitive way myself...
georule1861: I think Star was as female as a cat in heat (to steal).
toxdoc1947: I'd say she was using him
Krin135: I'd have to say she had no interest in him initially
JJ Brannon: Define "interest".
georule1861: And that meant big musclebound heroes who can wield their blade(s)
curled her toes.
Krin135: in terms of long term, JJ
NuclearWasteUSN: Given some of the views he gave about enlightened self interest
and philanthropy the answer would seem to be yes and no.
JJ Brannon: I think Star was an admirer of art and examples of arete.
toxdoc1947: but she held up her end of the bargain
JJ Brannon: Therefore, yes.
Krin135: once she had invested in him to the point of having her tender tush on
Krin135: UNLIKE the others recorded, I'd say that she bought into Scar
toxdoc1947: yeah, but if he had failed, she'd have started looking for another
JJ Brannon: I think she was interested in Gordon for the long term, only...
AGplusone: One of many tools ... ? Start the mission and check in occasionally
to see if he's done yet? Although she claims she'll die on the mission if he
JJ Brannon: ...he was a tad green.
Krin135: and the long life therapy is a good indication that she was looking a
long term relation
ichiban slug: nod, she was not a lovesick fool, she had a empire to rule
JJ Brannon: Supremely pragmatic.
AGplusone: Maybe she's just granting his wishes, for a long life and a lot of
sequels, he made when he realized he'd fallen into a book.
Krin135: AG, I think that there are indications that Star came to realize that
the others failed for that reason
xarophti: I think it is entirely possible to begin with pragmatic self-interest
and have it evolve into something deeper.
Krin135: that Herself wasn't along
ichiban slug: but his happines was important to her own... so
Krin135: Ichi, that is part of RAH's definition of love
xarophti: by the Heinleinien definition of love...
NuclearWasteUSN: good point slug
georule1861: She knew long term was hopeless, but I don't see any reason to
think she wasn't pretty much as represented. . .which was enjoying him for as
long as he would let her, knowing he wouldn't stay a pet for long.
AGplusone: Agreed, chuck.
morganuci: That's my take as well.
JJ Brannon: Recall, Star Herself was a tool -- one of many -- cultivated for a
AGplusone: He needs her and Rufo.
Krin135: so once she accepted that she would have to play a part, she also
accepted that she would become vulnerable
AGplusone: And Rufo might have to turn out to be a back up, to take their bodies
ichiban slug: ->thinks it is great to be in a room full of people who know how
to define love properly...!
Krin135: to a long term emotional entaglment
AGplusone: To shave Oscar, so to speak.
Krin135: good point David
georule1861: Don't forget, and I think this is important. . .she has a mini fit
at Rufo right after they've got the egg, because he insists on telling Oscar the
georule1861: She has the egg.
georule1861: He's not strictly necessary anymore.
Krin135: but then, Rufo ended up with HIS tush just as much on the line at the
AGplusone: (unlike Dejah Thoris, who lays them, as I said earlier).
georule1861: So the only rational explanation right then is she is truly
enjoying what's going on and isn't ready for it to end yet.
Krin135: well, Geo, Herself also realizes that each level of memory She adds to
morganuci: How long would she have let it go on?
AGplusone: Well, she needed a break from the Ruler mode.
ichiban slug: as well as letting oscar enjoy his triumph without any doubts
Krin135: changes her enough to potentially ruin any relationship she might have
georule1861: It's an emotional reaction for sure.
Krin135: and Rufo realizes that those changes are as much would not be fair to
Scar as anything else
NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.
georule1861: At some level the ruler had to know that she needed to get cracking
on catching up with the egg.
Krin135: another point here is the 'there are no atheists in Foxy Holes' rule
georule1861: So she couldn't let it go much longer anyway.
AGplusone: eeew! Chuck, that's soooo evil.
Krin135: the shared danger, and the relief thereof, tends to rile the hormones
of ANY human type
AGplusone: Besides, Oscar believes in falling into books--isn't that enough for
a belief? If you clap your hands?
Krin135: David, you and I and Nuke, and I don't know how many others here, share
the common bond of Rufo and Scar, if not that of Star and Scar
AGplusone: Oscar's bond has even got a Fairy Godmother Department, although I
don't recall seeing one during any tour I had of it.
Krin135: I did...first tour, Ft Sill, OK, 1980
AGplusone: (I guess she was out on sick leave).
morganuci: New question, the crux of the book: what IS the value of a hero, once
the quest is over?
toxdoc1947: I got touched by the fairy godmother department when I was in the
LVPPakaAspie has left the room.
Krin135: ok, first define heroism for me
Krin135: When was that, Tox? FLW class of 1979 here
AGplusone: what makes heroes a valuable item other than cannon fodder?
Krin135: wait one, Morgan
Krin135: first define heroism
JJ Brannon: Heinlein's whole metatheme is on the nature and importance of
ichiban slug: doing it even though ya want someone else to do it?
Krin135: nope, Ichi
AGplusone: Laying in the mud, while the choppers go "wup, wup, wup ... "
Krin135: not good enough
georule1861: Are a hero and a Hero the same thing/
Krin135: still not good enough, AG...that one goes along with 'never share a
bunker with anyone braver than you are'
MizzezHappy: risking yourself for a cause that continues beyond yourself?
georule1861: The canon fodder remark is why I asked.
Krin135: postulate: anyone can be a hero, but it takes a hero to be a Hero
U Wolf has entered the room.
Krin135: and Heros live through the Ages
U Wolf: Hello All.
Krin135: hi Wolf
JJ Brannon: Hi, Wolf.! Everybody say hi to my friend.
MizzezHappy: Hi Wolf
morganuci: Hi Wolf
AGplusone: How many true Heroes in Heinlein? Dalquist ain't--it was an accident;
Sam Roberts or Richards wasn't--it just worked out that way and he ate what was
on his plate ... name a hero other than Oscar.
Ron0859: Hi Wolf
Krin135: I'd argue there, AG
Krin135: the hero can be the little girl playing the piano as the smoke curls
around her head
MizzezHappy: the biggest heroes don't choose to be heros
U Wolf: Name is Lowell, or Uncle is usuall nick name.
AGplusone: /ga, Chuck. Argue
Krin135: so that her classmates can march out to safety
georule1861 has left the room.
georule1861 has entered the room.
toxdoc1947: US Army Intelligence School '68-69
AGplusone: The difference is Oscar does choose to be a Hero, and heads right
back for Glory Road. That's the point of the second part of the novel.
JJ Brannon: But David's talking about avatars with a capital H.
U Wolf: A hero is someone who chance puts in harms way, and they choose to deal
with the situation rather than dying of fear.
Krin135: agreed, Lowell
Krin135: the Hero then goes beyond that
morganuci: I'm not so sure Dahlquist isn't a Hero. True, he fell into the
circumstances, but he could have been a louse.
xarophti: yes, I agree. He could have just "followed orders" and gone along with
JJ Brannon: Agreed. And Heinlein has many fine heroes who eat what's set before
Krin135: Dahlquist also was a Hero, as were the Three Never Left Behind
JJ Brannon: ask for a tad more Tabasco.
U Wolf: And in Glory Road, Oscar makes that choise, and then follows
through...And goes beyond.
AGplusone: He just keeps trying to solve the smallest piece of the problem,
which is what gets him into the end, Tim.
toxdoc1947: I agree about dahlquist
georule1861 has left the room.
U Wolf: Jim, no, Liquimen and Tabasco
ichiban slug: so mr.krin, hero of the capital h?
georule1861 has entered the room.
Krin135: A Hero goes beyond, by ending up, for what ever reason, even in the
agony of de feet
AGplusone: But Dalquist and the others are
Krin135: something or someone so well known, as to Inspire future victories
AGplusone: accidental heroes
AGplusone: not Heroes'
ichiban slug: hmm
Krin135: don't matter, deliberate, or accidental, David
xarophti: wasn't Oscar, at the beginning?
Krin135: Oscar was a hero from the start
JJ Brannon: Did Scar plan his heroism? Star did, but did he?
U Wolf: Krin, a hero does not need to be "recognised by future generations"...
Most are infact unknown...
AGplusone: Naw, Oscar is bred to the trade.
Krin135: by 'eating what was on his plat
ichiban slug: no anon 'Heros then in your book?
Krin135: agreed, Lowell
georule1861: Yes, he did.
Krin135: but Heros must by definition, be known by the future
georule1861: That's what "I wanted" is about, isn't it?
AGplusone: Daddy Hero ... Oscar Hero ... sons will be Heroes.
georule1861: Planning on that hero bit.
JJ Brannon: You know what I regret?
Krin135: besides not having a sequel to the book, JJ?
U Wolf: LOL, both Star and Scar probably arranged for Oscar's breeding ..
JJ Brannon: That kids today reading about the Irish Sweepstakes will totally
miss the significance.
Krin135: Star and Rufo, you mean, Lowell?
ichiban slug: 'unsung heros''
AGplusone: Daddy uses "bump of direction" to walk out of Hagaru to Hangnam,
Oscar uses bumb to find egg.
U Wolf: Krin, I disagree that heros must be known..
Krin135: Ichi, there are unsung heros...I work with a lot of them
Krin135: but Heros must be
U Wolf: And yes, Star and Rufo, not Scar, except in an oblique way.
Krin135: among some group or another
Krin135: how many have visited the Alamo?
JJ Brannon: There's Heinlein's own unnamed tramp on the railroad tracks.
georule1861: I have.
toxdoc1947: Interesting, my dad was a Hero - landed on Omaha beach D-day; later
got transferred to Pacific and was on iwo jima as well as okinawa
Krin135: or the pass where the Spartans stood?
AGplusone: Alergic to Texas, sorry.
U Wolf: Krin, the ACT of heroism must be known, but the hero might not.
toxdoc1947: I guess I never had the opportunity to see if it was inherited
Krin135: chuckle...have you been in active practice of medicine, Tox?
U Wolf: And Krin, I have been to the Alamo, but the road to the pass was blocked
AGplusone: Be nice to visit Hot Springs, tho, sometimes.
xarophti: Anyone consider Jubal's description of "The Fallen Caryatid" to Ben in
"Stranger"? Does that fall under the catagory of "hero"?
Krin135: ah...must have been there when they were filiming the movie several
Ron0859 has left the room.
AGplusone: Could, xaro
U Wolf: Xaro, I would say so.
toxdoc1947: am not a reall doctor ;-) pharm.d. clinical toxicologist poison
control center director
ichiban slug: so mr.krin, by your definition one must have pig boys agog to be a
'real capt. h hero'?
Krin135: Xaro, I'd class She who Was the Beautiful as more of a Hero than 'The
Krin135: nope, Ichi
Krin135: must also be able to inspire girls as well
ichiban slug: mr. tox =mr.yuk!
JJ Brannon: I've seen that in Philly at the Rodin Museum.
Krin135: "She who Was" didn't fail spectacularly
xarophti: I see what you mean, but RAH expounds on it when describing
"Caryatid". The phone operator staying at her post while smoke chokes her
escape, the father working for one more paycheck while cancer eats him inside,
Krin135: as did Fallen
toxdoc1947: nah - Mr. Yuk requires up front money and significant royalties
JJ Brannon: Heinlein's one strange mistake in Stranger.
toxdoc1947: i had better uses for the money
Krin135: yes...and I've already refered to that, and I can agree it was a
U Wolf: It seems to me that Krin's definition is a person whos actions inspire,
and who must stand up for all to worship...
AGplusone: How come Zebbie is a remade Hero, in Oscar's image? What was Heinlein
up to there?
Krin135: may not survive to be worshipped, Lowel
U Wolf: And unfortunately, most of those are frauds of one sort or another,
living on the actions of others.
JJ Brannon: Helmetmaker's Wife.
JJ Brannon: The Dutch Boy in the Dark.
Krin135: besides those of us who are former military, how many know the
percentage of non posthoumus US Medal of Honor awardees?
U Wolf: Jim, agreed...
AGplusone: Helmet prices musta dropped a lot from when she was young.
AGplusone: Considering that it's known as the "You Should Really, Really Be
Dead" Medal, we can guess.
U Wolf: Krin, never been officially in the military, I suspect it is 85+% never
live to enjoy it.
Krin135: more like 95 plus
JJ Brannon: Tad higher, eh?
U Wolf: Well, not having officially been in the military, I came pretty close.
Krin135: even higher than that of Vickies Cross among the Brits
JJ Brannon: But Heinlein speaks to this in Glory Road. About unseen heroes.
Krin135: ummm...fire fighters, police officers
ichiban slug: yes?
Krin135: single moms doing their best
U Wolf: Jim, not only speaks, but elucidates to make a point that the unseen
heros are often the real Heros
ichiban slug: capital h? or lower case?
JJ Brannon: The student that bumps into him at the soda shop. "Sorry, Pops." I
let him live.
AGplusone: Heroism is something like Pug aspires towards ... he'll heroically
shovel manure for years for the Doral.
JJ Brannon: Walking the Glory Road only brings intermittant glory. Else why
doesn't Scar recognize Cyrano???
ichiban slug: nod
Krin135: esp since many of the later problems he has to solve are actually out
of his own mind
AGplusone: Until the time someone tells everyone else he killed "Seven With One
Blow" and then he'll try manfully to deliver against the stranger in the castle
U Wolf: JJ, in an unexpected encounter, some people wouldn't recognise their own
AGplusone: Why is Cyrano is a castle in Carpenthia?
ichiban slug: nope, not buying that mr wolf
Krin135: chuckle...I get that all the time, Lowell
AGplusone: Is he in a dream after the House Fell on His Head?
Krin135: 'I didn't recognize you in clothing'
ichiban slug: mr.heinlein was making a point
JJ Brannon: I failed to recall my brother's name once while introducing him.
AGplusone: Him and Oscar both coming on this thing from bad dreams, fallen into
Krin135: mmmm....Mr. Heinlein was writing to amuse and to make money
ichiban slug: he even rubbed our noses in it..."funny he did not tell me his
name, he seemed to expect i knew it already.."
Krin135: making folks think was a delightful consequence for all but two of the
U Wolf: Ich, well, perhaps not brother, but one of my student's didn't recognise
me last wednesday, and I had her for five courses...
JJ Brannon: And thought the mature woman exiting the elevator defintiely had the
most class of all the occupants.
JJ Brannon: It took me another minute to recognize my own mother.
JJ Brannon: It happens.
U Wolf: and she only graduated last year.... She didn't recognise me in my
grubbies in front of her at the cash register, till I spoke her name.
Krin135: lol...Lowell, what do you teach?
ichiban slug: mr. krin i think it would be foolish to ascribe a single motivator
U Wolf: Krin, Computer Infrastructure, Ecology..AA Level
Krin135: then please read comments that Sr. Heinlein has made...
JJ Brannon: As I said earlier. RAH's metatheme in this book is the importance of
Krin135: to borrow from Belisarius, RAH was a craftsman, and one good enough to
be paid well for his efforts
JJ Brannon: Easy Gordon's a nutcase to the LA police, carrying that pigsticker.
AGplusone: What's his metatheme, JJ ... that Gordon's fallen into a fairy tale?
Krin135: that I can agree with, JJ
JJ Brannon: Glory Road was also the first Vietnam War novel I read.
U Wolf: Krin, which set of comments? I can steer a ship, deliver a baby, sew a
garmet, cook a tasty meal, ect.
Krin135: did you read it before or after, SST?
AGplusone: Unless it was Laos, and the White Teams in '59-61.
U Wolf: JJ, yep, an early one for sure, I read it about that time as well.
JJ Brannon: That a hero in one context is a loser without a job, a house, a
college degree in another.
Krin135: David, was it in EU or Tramp where RAH discusses his motivation for
writing as being one to get paid?
JJ Brannon: Before SST.
AGplusone: I never believe what writers say about their motivation.
Krin135: the few times I was graced with a short conversation with Ms. Ginny
xarophti: I saw some in his letters in "Grumbles from the Grave"
U Wolf: Heinlein probably did it cause it was fun, and less work than not
georule1861: That getting paid stuff was blatantly defense mechanism to deflect
acolytes who expected to get it spoon fed to them for the asking.
ichiban slug: you got that right mr.plus one!
AGplusone: I think his motivation was a fetish to dirty paper on one side.
Krin135: oh, that's low, David
Krin135: I refer you to the Apple Pie discussion in SST
georule1861: He said that early at one point.
AGplusone: That how Cabell described it.
JJ Brannon: yes, but his genius was to be paid for his fetish.:>)
JJ Brannon: Paid well!
AGplusone: He was quoting Cabell.
georule1861: That after telling Campbell he was through as soon as one was
rejected. . .
Krin135: both in cash and in respect
U Wolf: David, besides, he dirtied paper on both sides , and yes, Cabell did
make that statement.
georule1861: he let himself get talked back into it.
AGplusone: I dunno. The manuscripts I've read are all typed on one side.
Krin135: foo...no being talked back into it
OscagneTX has entered the room.
Krin135: hi Osc
OscagneTX: howdy. Just got home form class. still goign?
U Wolf: David, the typed ones are, the hand written ones are on both sides
georule1861: I do love Campbell's description tho.
AGplusone: Hi, Joe, we're nice and busy ... talking about Heinlein's motivation
in writing GR.
JJ Brannon: As to his metatheme of context's importance, we are talking about a
georule1861: He said something like. . .when I want a story from Bob Heinlein,
first I have to convince him he needs a new pool. . .
U Wolf: Ok, I need to go, perhaps I will drop by again...
georule1861: . . and then I have to convince him not to build it himself.
Krin135: nice to meet you Lowell
ichiban slug: *wave*
AGplusone: I've seen notes but never handwritten manuscripts, but I've only seen
a few. STill, FUTL, was typewritten.
xarophti: good night
Krin135: Geo, considering the amount of work with the wheel barrows, I can
beleive that one
AGplusone: And I know I've seen it.
U Wolf: I book marked this, now when I find out what nights I teach next
georule1861: I've seen a few ms of late.
georule1861: No handwritten.
U Wolf: Getting my second masters degree and teaching 3-4 classes...
DavidWrightSr: Lowell, if you aren't on the notification mailing list email me
U Wolf: So, I am, a wee bit less sure of my availability....
AGplusone: Speaking of manuscripts, do you know that Dula sent me Number when I
went in for my by-pass, Geo. I think he was trying to cheer me up. Nice of him.
U Wolf: Thank you david, I will do that right now.
U Wolf has left the room.
georule1861: No, I didn't. Good for him and you.
AGplusone: Reread it last night for fun.
AGplusone: Fascinating ...
JJ Brannon: David, I know I'll see you in July. Will you becoming to Balticon?
morganuci: That manuscript is going to be available on the web at some point?
Krin135: I hate to say it, but I'm selfish enough that I've got FUTL stuck back
as my only 'unread' Heinlein
AGplusone: Nice to go in for surgery knowing that Dula wanted to be sure that
I'd read it all. Yes, in July, Tim. Why I keep mentioning the similarities
between GR's Oscar, and Number's Zebbie.
Krin135: mmmm...I'll have to chew on that one
Krin135: there are some similarities, I'll agree
toxdoc1947: me too
Krin135: but Zeb is a child of privelege when push comes to shove
toxdoc1947: I think there's a fundamental difference
AGplusone: He sez they're dopplegangers in Number
Krin135: still have to chew on that one
georule1861: Zeb's childhood wasn't manipulated by Star.
Krin135: may need to stop and check the books out of the local library
AGplusone: but what difference do you see Toxdoc
Krin135: still down in Butler, MO
Krin135: the main difference I see is in the beginnings
AGplusone: physically the same when they meet, but as to character, what?
georule1861: Zeb knew he had $1M coming if he diddled the system.
OscagneTX has left the room.
georule1861: Or whatever it was.
georule1861: His share of grandpas will.
Krin135: other thing being that Scar ended up being able to make command
AGplusone: I think Zebbie's a dilletante, Oscar's the Real Deal.
Krin135: while Zeb never got beyond pilot when push came to shove
AGplusone: But, consider, how did Heinlein write Zebbie originally? What will
the original unpublished manuscript show?
Krin135: possibly the Scar, and the reason for the Scar, was part of the
AGplusone: Where was Heinlein going with the unpublished "Panki-Barsoom" Number.
Krin135: AG, you have an advantage on me there...
AGplusone: Yeah ... and I'm hinting it might be fun to find out.
georule1861: Zeb is partly the --If This Goes On Zeb too tho.
georule1861: The incredibly smart guy who's playing the system for fun.
Krin135: point taken
georule1861: Until Sh*t Happens and he has to make a stand.
AGplusone: Zeb most reminds me of Sam from Puppet Masters. Untried until Push
Came to Shove.
Krin135: and to a certain extant IFTGO results in that Z turning into at least a
AGplusone: Like Smitty in Red Planet. Sticking around to make sure his
investments don't get lost.
georule1861: Well, at least Sam is already a highly trained operative in the
Krin135: taking that stand is part of the definition of hero that we've already
georule1861: He's not hanging out at a university having fun.
toxdoc1947: Zebbie had the potential, buy allowed himself to be pushed around
too much when he knew what should have been done
georule1861: Tho it is "the family business"
AGplusone: The beginning scene if both Numbers are the same. He meets Mad
Scientist's Daughter and they leave to exploading cars and encounter the
"Beasts" called Pankera or Panki.
AGplusone: And they find that all close time lines are infested with Panki ...
georule1861: /me makes a note to look that up.
AGplusone: And wind up on Barsoom ... that much is pretty well know, and where
they find that the Beasts are identical to Pankera who once invaded Barsoon.
xarophti: I'm not sure what you mean by "both Numbers"
xarophti: different version?
AGplusone: Although which of the John Carter books it was, I'll be damned if I
can find it.
AGplusone: Yeah, Heinlein's first version was deemed unpublishable. Ginny told
him not to. So he put it aside. Later, after the operation on his brain, he went
AGplusone: highgraded part of it, and rewrote parts.
Krin135: brain or neck, AG?
xarophti: ah. Guess I've never seen that version
MizzezHappy has left the room.
MizzezHappy has entered the room.
AGplusone: Few have. It's (what's left of it, which has the highgraded parts
removed) is in archives in Santa Cruz, and will go on line by July.
georule1861: http://www.erblist.com/fanfiction/morgor/morgortimeline.html ??
georule1861: Think that's it, David?
AGplusone: I don't know it's fanfic, Geo. Pretty definite that RAH probably
wouldn't reference fanfic.
AGplusone: If he was trying for a tribute to ER Burroughs.
Krin135: any how, I need to quite for the night...
AGplusone: And Panki, and Pankera are pretty definite names. I just didn't get
any hits on the first five ER Burroughts when I used Find.
Krin135: quit that is
AGplusone: Glad to have you, Chuck.
AGplusone: On duty?
Krin135: nice seeing the old friends and meeting the new ones
xarophti: nice to meet you!
ichiban slug: *wave* fence with you any time mr.chuck
Krin135: no...off today, but we did 30 pts in 12 hours yesterday...about our
usual 24 hour load
AGplusone: But I don't have all the ER Burroughs in etext.
Krin135: and I'm back in the ED at 0700
AGplusone: Have fun, Doc.
Krin135: Tox, I'm one of the ED guys you support in some ways
georule1861: Well, I meant Skeleton Men of Jupiter, by ERB.
Krin135: even if I don't practice in MS, I spent almost 20 years in LA
georule1861: It was unfinished.
georule1861: So many have finished it for him. . .
AGplusone: Mongors? Hormad? Why not Panki or Pankera ... I just don't know.
toxdoc1947: Krin: We try our best. We get a lot of calls from all over - some of
the local grads have gone to africa to do missionary work
toxdoc1947: always sort of takes me aback when I see the call from nigeria
AGplusone: Anyway, I'm fascinated by Oscar's wish for long life and many sequels
in Chapter Five and fact that when Heinlein wrote an adventure called Number he
made Zebbie a double for Oscar.
Krin135 has left the room.
AGplusone: Just as he makes Deety a double for Libby (and Thuvia Maid of Mars in
the original Number) ...
AGplusone: And then brings them all together at end of final Number, for, maybe,
a mission requiring several Heroes?
AGplusone: E.g., World As Myth, and the Circle of Ourboros?
AGplusone: I.e., he wasn't saying good bye to all his fans in Number, he was
getting ready for final crescendo?
morganuci: Yes, I think so.
AGplusone: Gotterdamnerung ...
AGplusone: or some such
ichiban slug: mr.morgan, another prompt~question?
morganuci: So, if we've defined Hero sufficiently, what's the Hero when the
quest is over?
xarophti: He does rather leave it open at the end of Number (at the least the
published version) when the Beast falls from the Bridge, Zeb figures they've
seen the last, and Sir Isaac says, "Friend Zebadiah, are you sure?"
ichiban slug: the premise of this story , once a hero rescues the damsel, what
does he do?
AGplusone: Just as the voice when Ted Bronson falls in battle ...
toxdoc1947: 'nite everybody this has been great
toxdoc1947 has left the room.
AGplusone: nite Tox
xarophti: good night
morganuci: See you next month!
JJ Brannon has left the room.
AGplusone: find another quest, ichiban
ichiban slug: another day, another damsel, hmm?
AGplusone: Yep. Unless you get to retire like Percival did with Friday.
xarophti: it need not always be a damsel.
AGplusone: (If she decides not to kill you for raping her earlier).
ichiban slug: lol, aww but i wanna get rescued,lol!
morganuci: Why was it set in the "present" (Vietnam war)? Could it have been set
up after a future fictional war just as well?
ichiban slug: it just ryhmed ms.shelly
ichiban slug: hmm, why?
AGplusone: Maybe he was talking to Smith who was concerned where Laos was going
in 1963 or so.
ichiban slug: apeal to a new young audience who was 'adrift'?
JJ Brannon has entered the room.
AGplusone: Note that the LT gets passed over twice and goes out to get himself
killed. Seems like the Advisory Mission isn't getting a lot of attention.
JJ Brannon: I'm back. AOL got confused and died on me.:>)
AGplusone: Maybe Heinlein wanted to point that out. Like the bunch who, earlier,
had Gone Greek with Van Fleet.
ichiban slug: [hey mr. morgan when you copy this be a doll & fix all of our
typo/spelling gaffes,hmmm?] =)
JJ Brannon: Whoever has the log of this chatroom send it to me afterwards.
AGplusone: The Army wasn't exactly sending its best in 1962.
morganuci: What was the attitude towards the war at that point in the US?
Obviously we know what it was in the late 60s.
xarophti: I know! Just saying most people think of the "quest romantic" always
involving a damsel in distress, and it doesn't always have to.
morganuci: No, no fixes. You get what you type:-).
ichiban slug: ahh merde!
morganuci: What's your address?
AGplusone: I just gave it to you. The Army wasn't sending its very best, and few
even knew what it was.
JJ Brannon: Mine? JJBrannon@aol.com
morganuci: OK, I'll send it to you.
JJ Brannon: Thank you.
AGplusone: I was in OCS in Oct 62, and we were just barely beginning to realize
that it was where we'd all probably end up.
morganuci: FYI, all the chats are posted at
AGplusone: And there were articles in Infantry magazine and the like pointing
out that the mission in Laos, Vietnam, etc., wasn't getting much support.
xarophti: by the way AG, thank you, sir, for your service
JJ Brannon: No ordinary citizen knew about it in 1966. To that I can attest.
xarophti: and all the other military and former military in this room.
JJ Brannon: When my fahter was killed that summer people were aghast to learn
that the US was at war.
AGplusone: (you have more fun with these things when you're young, xaro)
DavidWrightSr: I was in Monterey in Oct 62. We were more worried about the Cuban
situation. I didn't get worried about Vietnam until I was on the way home in 65.
Rumor had it we were not going to stop in US
georule1861: Time to go. Ta.
georule1861 has left the room.
MizzezHappy has left the room.
AGplusone: Cuba came up, but the funny awareness was SE Asia ... that was where
the stories were coming out of.
JJ Brannon: Thanks for the lift, David.
morganuci: I suspect most people didn't know where SE Asia was:-)
ichiban slug: lol!
xarophti: well, in the hobby I'm in, we have a great respect for our military.
morganuci: I'm out of questions. Someone else want to pose one?
AGplusone: I graduated in time for Cuba. They sent me straight to the 82d as a
supernumery ... temporarily, and when they didn't drop, I got sent on to where
they'd originally scheduled me to go.
JJ Brannon: Thanks for that tip, Morganuci.
AGplusone: What topic next time?
AGplusone: What would people like?
morganuci: Yeah, I'm open to suggestions!
DavidWrightSr: JJ if you want to be included in the notifications mailing list
email me at firstname.lastname@example.org
xarophti: Have you done Number of the Beast? We drew quite a few comparisons to
ichiban slug: i would like to have unread heinlein my self...=p
morganuci: Number would be good---it'd be an excuse to re-read it, which I
haven't in a long time. Any objections?
AGplusone: Number might be fun, but focus on what?
ichiban slug: then we will spend the time talking about its similarities to
glory road? lol!
AGplusone: I'd enjoy WAM and Number, Tim.
ichiban slug: *snort*
AGplusone: Help if we had more discussion on the board in AFH.
morganuci: Good. When should we schedule it? Back on the original schedule, or a
month from now?
AGplusone: two weeks or a month, are both fine with me.
DavidWrightSr: Tim was there any interest in a Saturday meeting?
morganuci: Only one person, and they said they probably couldn't actually make
AGplusone: Anyone hear from Nurmi?
DavidWrightSr: I think two weeks is better. Keeps the momentum up better
morganuci: OK, let's shoot for 2 weeks. I'll compose an announcement this
AGplusone: Give it a fun two weeks for postings, Tim.
DavidWrightSr: March 8,
AGplusone: "And then, as I end the refrain, thrust home!"
morganuci: Any closing words? If not, good night all!
AGplusone: Got log, dave?
ichiban slug: ->bids the room oyasumi nasai, and bows nivian style to all
xarophti: those closing words sound good to me!
morganuci: I've collected it also.
DavidWrightSr: David sent me the earlier log Tim
xarophti: good night, all. And thank you for your welcome and a wonderful first
meeting for me.
AGplusone: One thousand, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand, check
AGplusone has left the room.
morganuci: Yes, tonight was the best chat I've been in so far. Thanks all!
DavidWrightSr: Glad to see all of the newcomers.
JJ Brannon: Got it, David!
morganuci has left the room.
xarophti has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:35 P.M. EST
DavidWrightSr: Night all
ichiban slug: *wave*
ichiban slug has left the room.
JJ Brannon has left the room.
End of Discussion
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