Thursday 01-09-2003 08:00 P.M. EST
How to Teach The Juveniles - Between Planets
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Subject: Between Planets
Date: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:04 PM
I was asked to do the lead off post on Between Planets. I remember being 16 fresh to the big city from the cotton farm. I had a job and hence a little money in my pocket. My local news stand had a copy of Bluebook Magazine with the first installment of a new novel by Robert A. Heinlein. It turned out to be the book Between Planets. I remember almost everything about that novel. The ponies, the classmates, the gorgeous waitress, the threat both from space and from the cops. Then the trip to Venus and all the adventures there. It is too bad; but, I will never be 16 again with a brand new Heinlein story. I'll never again haunt a news stand waiting for the concluding installment of a Heinlein serial. But, it was fun and this story is one of my personal favorites. If you haven't read it yet you have my envy. Dehede
From: David M. Silver <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 3:14 PM email@example.com (Dehede011) wrote in message news:<firstname.lastname@example.org>...
>I've begun re-reading Between Planets to prepare for the chat scheduled for >January 09, 2003. Have any of you started reading it yet? Are you able to >find it in the bookstores?Since the chat scheduled is in two days, I thought I'd raise a couple questions:
1. What do we think about the "mix" between juvenile and adult subject matter that some have argued might be inappropriate here?
For example, there's a lot of death portrayed, especially that of Dr. Jefferson, the passengers who chose not to continue on to Venus from the highjacking of the liners at the space station, the members of the High Guard and Middle Guard at the time that the Earth Federation strikes, the burning down of Old Charlie, the officer who dies on the barbed wire, the off-stage guerrilla warfare in which Don engages, the Federation Space Navy vessels left behind on the way to Mars, encapsulated in the globes created by the weapons of the Little David.
How does Heinlein handle, or not handle, these aspects "appropriately" to a young adult novel? How do you keep Mrs. Grundy, et al., from arguing that this book is inappropriate for 12-year-olds, or younger?
2. Is the fact that the plot neatly ties itself up at the end, deus ex machina style, with the invention of the super devices from research into past civilizations providing the solution to cut the time, just as a like invention did in Sixth Column, the Martians do in Red Planet, Mike in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, the sort of thing that perhaps teaches the wrong lesson about the necessary duration of "revolutions" to young adults?
It's been argued, sometimes persuasively, that no revolution against a colonial or imperial power has ever been successful, without outside intervention, in anything like a short time (e.g., Poland, it is said, took 300 years -- and the first world war, to regain its independence; even Uncle Ho took fifty or so to gain independence from first France, then the US-supported South Vietnamese government).
How would you handle, if you were teaching Between Planets, this problem of unrealistic expectations?
Remember, the chat meeting Thursday, January 9th, now starts one hour earlier than formerly, at 8 PM, EST and the meeting continues to 11 PM, EST; and the Saturday meeting is still the old times, from 5 PM, EST, until 8 PM.
Use AIM software to enter the room "Heinlein Readers Group chat" [see the links page on http://www.heinleinsociety.org ] or let us know by IM that you need an invitation for the first time or if you've lost your shortcut.
See you all day after tomorrow.
From: Clell Harmon <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:06 PM On 7 Jan 2003 12:14:28 -0800, firstname.lastname@example.org (David M. Silver) wrote:
>It's been argued, sometimes persuasively, that no revolution against a >colonial or imperial power has ever been successful, without outside >intervention, in anything like a short time (e.g., Poland, it is said, >took 300 years -- and the first world war, to regain its independence; >even Uncle Ho took fifty or so to gain independence from first France, >then the US-supported South Vietnamese government). > >How would you handle, if you were teaching Between Planets, this >problem of unrealistic expectations?The distances involved in interplantetary travel would be quite the 'outside intervention' IF the colonists controled high orbit for their world, then there would be little that any power, imperial or otherwise could do about it. Any ship coming from Earth could be easily countered by tossing rubble in it's path, failing 'warp' or other fantasy (by today's standard) ship drive there would be little those on board the ship could do about it beyond altering it's ballistic path (missing the target world all together, or changing it's timetable radically, possibly running out of consumables enroute.
If on the other hand the colonists only contol the planet's surface, then they are ducks sitting on the bottom of a very deep gravity well. Shooting down will always be easier (and cheaper) than shooting up.
The feddies were able to sneak up on Mike in TMIAHM only because of the unique nature of the Earth/Luna system. Going to Mars or Venus wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to hide
From: David M. Silver <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:23 PM
In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Clell Harmon <email@example.com>wrote:
>On 7 Jan 2003 12:14:28 -0800, firstname.lastname@example.org (David M. Silver) >wrote: > > >>It's been argued, sometimes persuasively, that no revolution against a >>colonial or imperial power has ever been successful, without outside >>intervention, in anything like a short time (e.g., Poland, it is said, >>took 300 years -- and the first world war, to regain its independence; >>even Uncle Ho took fifty or so to gain independence from first France, >>then the US-supported South Vietnamese government). >> >>How would you handle, if you were teaching Between Planets, this >>problem of unrealistic expectations? > > The distances involved in interplantetary travel would be >quite the 'outside intervention' IF the colonists controled high >orbit for their world, then there would be little that any power, >imperial or otherwise could do about it. Any ship coming from Earth >could be easily countered by tossing rubble in it's path, failing >'warp' or other fantasy (by today's standard) ship drive there would >be little those on board the ship could do about it beyond altering >it's ballistic path (missing the target world all together, or >changing it's timetable radically, possibly running out of consumables >enroute.It's arguable, however, iirc, that the Venus "High Guard" did "control" high orbit approaches outside its newly-declared independent republic, manning captured interplanetary ships. I'll need review it again before Thursday, but my recollection was there was a surprise, or a guise -- feigned negotiations perhaps, that allowed the Terran fleet in close enough for numbers to count; and they were vaporized before they knew it -- and the Middle Guard, the shuttles, never got off the ground to defend the landing zones.
Even despite the long coastline, a large merchant fleet, raiders commissioned and uncommissioned under letters of marque by Congress, and notwithstanding John Paul Jones' Naval raids in the Ranger, the Royal Navy controlled the North American colonial coastline the entire war except for one brief period, when DeGrasse's fleet arrived, landed reinforcing French troops, and achieved local control of Chesapeake Bay, whereupon Washington seized that time to bottle up and capture Cornwallis at Yorktown. It would have been a lot longer war without DeGrasse's arrival.
However, I believe generally you're quite correct. IF and a big if the colonials can achieve a superior control of approaches to the rebellious colony the distances will count a great deal. Maintaining it could be another problem, particularly if embargoes and blockades, etc., are problems.
Even the federation in Moon managed to slip a surprise attack by coming in on the dark side, although arguably the Mike-aimed and lazer water driller manned guns were sufficient to defend that part of the moon's sky near any settlement from a direct Earth attack.
> > If on the other hand the colonists only contol the planet's >surface, then they are ducks sitting on the bottom of a very deep >gravity well. Shooting down will always be easier (and cheaper) than >shooting up. > > The feddies were able to sneak up on Mike in TMIAHM only >because of the unique nature of the Earth/Luna system. Going to Mars >or Venus wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to hide > >So long as every direction is suspected and nothing left unguarded. 'twill be interesting in my re-read to see whether Heinlein even bothered to explain how or whether indeed the Terran fleet even tried to conceal its approach. Stealth devices, radio telescope cloaking signals, interference of one sort or another? Diversions? How hard would that be to produce?
What do you think about the other question: violence levels in the story, Clell? Appropriate for 12 or 13 year-olds or not?
From: Clell Harmon <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:21 PM
On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:23:34 GMT, "David M. Silver" <firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote:
>> The distances involved in interplantetary travel would be >>quite the 'outside intervention' IF the colonists controled high >>orbit for their world, then there would be little that any power, >>imperial or otherwise could do about it. Any ship coming from Earth >>could be easily countered by tossing rubble in it's path, failing >>'warp' or other fantasy (by today's standard) ship drive there would >>be little those on board the ship could do about it beyond altering >>it's ballistic path (missing the target world all together, or >>changing it's timetable radically, possibly running out of consumables >>enroute. > >It's arguable, however, iirc, that the Venus "High Guard" did "control" >high orbit approaches outside its newly-declared independent republic, >manning captured interplanetary ships. I'll need review it again before >Thursday, but my recollection was there was a surprise, or a guise -- >feigned negotiations perhaps, that allowed the Terran fleet in close >enough for numbers to count; and they were vaporized before they knew it >-- and the Middle Guard, the shuttles, never got off the ground to >defend the landing zones.Haven't read that one in years, need to review.
> >Even despite the long coastline, a large merchant fleet, raiders >commissioned and uncommissioned under letters of marque by Congress, and >notwithstanding John Paul Jones' Naval raids in the Ranger, the Royal >Navy controlled the North American colonial coastline the entire war >except for one brief period, when DeGrasse's fleet arrived, landed >reinforcing French troops, and achieved local control of Chesapeake Bay, >whereupon Washington seized that time to bottle up and capture >Cornwallis at Yorktown. It would have been a lot longer war without >DeGrasse's arrival. > >However, I believe generally you're quite correct. IF and a big if the >colonials can achieve a superior control of approaches to the rebellious >colony the distances will count a great deal. Maintaining it could be >another problem, particularly if embargoes and blockades, etc., are >problems. > >Even the federation in Moon managed to slip a surprise attack by coming >in on the dark side, although arguably the Mike-aimed and lazer water >driller manned guns were sufficient to defend that part of the moon's >sky near any settlement from a direct Earth attack. > >> >> If on the other hand the colonists only contol the planet's >>surface, then they are ducks sitting on the bottom of a very deep >>gravity well. Shooting down will always be easier (and cheaper) than >>shooting up. >> >> The feddies were able to sneak up on Mike in TMIAHM only >>because of the unique nature of the Earth/Luna system. Going to Mars >>or Venus wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to hide >> >> > >So long as every direction is suspected and nothing left unguarded. >'twill be interesting in my re-read to see whether Heinlein even >bothered to explain how or whether indeed the Terran fleet even tried to >conceal its approach. Stealth devices, radio telescope cloaking signals, >interference of one sort or another? Diversions? How hard would that be >to produce?Radar and radio detection can be spoofed, if not evaded all together, however in the case of a long ballistic approach (again failing the invention of a fantasy drive system) there would be a limited number of approaches between planets, and those could easily monitored using the Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball (and scopes of course.) The visual features of the incoming ships could be ablated of course, but the obscuring of the stars behind them could not, nor the flare of their propulsion system (making course corrections).
The hardest part of the voyage between worlds will be the slowing down when you get there, Aerobraking is hazardous at best and even worse if some annoyed colonist tosses a peck of gravel in front of you at the last second giving you 4 options. (1. Avoid it by going deeper into the atmosphere and die quickly, (2. Avoid it by going shallower into the atmosphere, bounce off, and die slowly when your consumable run out, or (3. plow through it, hoping your heat shield holds out and die when it doesn't and lastly (4. plow through it, hoping your heat shield holds out and survive long enough for the heat seaking missile to home in on that friction bloom your ship is making and all your countermeasures are out of commission.
>What do you think about the other question: violence levels in the >story, Clell? Appropriate for 12 or 13 year-olds or not?Sure. I was aware that people died in wars at the age of 12,
From: Major oz <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:13 AM
>>I mean, how much protection does an inflated kid's balloon provide >>against a BB gun?Ten balloons provide quite good protection (or, more to the point: masking) for a gun with only five BB's -- the whole idea of decoys: exhaust the enemy's weapons.
From: Dont Be Fuelish <firstname.lastname@example.orgGovDavis>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 1:29 PM
Major oz wrote:
>>>I mean, how much protection does an inflated kid's balloon provide >>>against a BB gun? > >Ten balloons provide quite good protection (or, more to >the point: masking) for a gun with only five BB's -- the >whole idea of decoys: exhaust the enemy's weapons.I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but stopping lead? I don't think so...
A stump, on the other hand, is a fine leadblocker.
>Tian http://tian.greens.org/ -- Yesterday at the Peace Vigil we heard Governor Davis give his State of the State address on the T shirt vendors radio. I heard Gov. Davis say "California's situation is unprecedented in modern times" before she had to go.
From: Major oz <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:17 PM
>>Ten balloons provide quite good protection (or, more to >>the point: masking) for a gun with only five BB's -- the >>whole idea of decoys: exhaust the enemy's weapons. > >I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but >stopping lead? I don't think so... > >A stump, on the other hand, is a fine leadblocker. > > >TianRead it again: 10 balloons, 5 BB's
oz,....eeny, meeny, etc.
From: David M. Silver <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 2:22 PM
Major oz wrote:
>>>Ten balloons provide quite good protection (or, more to >>>the point: masking) for a gun with only five BB's -- the >>>whole idea of decoys: exhaust the enemy's weapons. >> >>I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >>Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but >>stopping lead? I don't think so... >> >>A stump, on the other hand, is a fine leadblocker. >> >> >>Tian > >Read it again: 10 balloons, 5 BB's > >Masking > >Decoy > >cheers > >oz,....eeny, meeny, etc.And then read the description of the "drop scene" at the beginning of Starship Troopers. :) Where in hell are they in all that junk?
From: James F. Cornwall <JCornwall_must_remove_this_part@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 3:03 PM
Major oz wrote:
> >>>Ten balloons provide quite good protection (or, more to >>>the point: masking) for a gun with only five BB's -- the >>>whole idea of decoys: exhaust the enemy's weapons. >> >>I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >>Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but >>stopping lead? I don't think so... >> >>A stump, on the other hand, is a fine leadblocker. >> >> >>Tian > >Read it again: 10 balloons, 5 BB's > >Masking > >Decoy > >cheers > >oz,....eeny, meeny, etc.And at sufficiently high velocities, a balloon can cause the BB's kinetic energy to convert into heat and vaporize them both, at which point the dispersed mass of the BB (in vapor form) is no longer a significant threat to the spacecraft.
-- **************************************************** ** Facilior veniam posterius quam prius capere! ** **************************************************** ** James F. Cornwall, sole owner of all opinions ** ** expressed in this message... ** ****************************************************
From: Christopher A. Bohn <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 1:59 PM
On 9 Jan 2003, Dont Be Fuelish wrote:
>I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, butWhich was my idea behind the inflatables -- hide the ship in the shadow of one. And since the inflatables will probably be detectable by their re-radiation of heat, include several decoys. Which inflatable is hiding the target?
-- Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________ http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** ' "Technology and air power are integrally and synergistically related." - P Meilinger, "Ten Propositions Regarding Air Power"
From: Nohbody <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:30 PM
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:59:20 -0500, "Christopher A. Bohn" <email@example.com>wrote:
>Good afternoon, > >On 9 Jan 2003, Dont Be Fuelish wrote: > >>I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >>Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but > >Which was my idea behind the inflatables -- hide the ship in the shadow of >one. And since the inflatables will probably be detectable by their >re-radiation of heat, include several decoys. Which inflatable is hiding >the target?How expensive is it to grab some rocks from a handy moon and launch them at the bandits? And how does that cost compare to the reduced capabilities of a warship with lots of valuable space/mass taken up by decoys (inflatable or otherwise) plus the deployment mechanism?
(Remember, this is just general hypothesizing, not specific commentary on BP, which I've not yet read.)
-- Lumber Cartel (tinlc) member #571; Junior member of the Cabal (tinc) ICQ UIN: 3908950 <http://wwp.mirabilis.com/3908950> A Meeting of Minds <http://nohbody.com/schtuff/meeting.html>- a (mostly) cliche-free first contact story (updated periodically)
From: David M. Silver <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 7:46 PM
In article <email@example.com>, Nohbody <firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:59:20 -0500, "Christopher A. Bohn" ><email@example.com>wrote: > >>Good afternoon, >> >>On 9 Jan 2003, Dont Be Fuelish wrote: >> >>>I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >>>Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but >> >>Which was my idea behind the inflatables -- hide the ship in the shadow of >>one. And since the inflatables will probably be detectable by their >>re-radiation of heat, include several decoys. Which inflatable is hiding >>the target? > >How expensive is it to grab some rocks from a handy moon and launch >them at the bandits? And how does that cost compare to the reduced >capabilities of a warship with lots of valuable space/mass taken up by >decoys (inflatable or otherwise) plus the deployment mechanism? >Assuming you've a handy moon, which Venus doesn't -- neither the habitable water covered swamplike planet under the clouds RAH chose for his novels of it, nor the one we know today, if you have the Delta V you can apply to the 'handfull [mountain full?] of rocks' to start it on the direction you think the invader will approach, it might work. But seems to me if you don't know what angle they're likely to come in on, you're going to have to throw lots of rocks to cover that expanding sphere out there. How often? Once a day, continuously?
>(Remember, this is just general hypothesizing, not specific commentary >on BP, which I've not yet read.)Reason I mention the problem is, apparently, after reading BP, torpedoes were used by the Earth's Space Navy to take out, one after the other, the two High Guard cruisers Venus had, on watch, in a circumpolar orbit -- one thirty minutes in orbit behind the other. They never saw the torpedoes (presumably small and cloaked) coming. Just big flash that one reported just before it disappeared in a like big flash. Maybe it was a lazer weapon? Who knows?
In any event, without opposition (there was no space defense other than the two cruisers), the Terran Space Navy moved in, and lauched landing vessels from whatever location around a sparcely settled planet they choose at one major location.
Next thing the townfolk knew, troops were landing on the training base outside the single major settlement; and once that concentration of defense was overcome, it was go round up the civilians and burn out the settlement. The townsfolk (those not liquidated) were told to head out for the countryside and find a farmer that might take you in. The Middle Guard shuttles never got off the ground from their sites of dispersal. One eventually becomes the Little David.
You might enjoy reading the story, Dan. :)
From: Nohbody <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:30 PM
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:46:21 GMT, "David M. Silver" <email@example.com>wrote:
> Nohbody <firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote: >>How expensive is it to grab some rocks from a handy moon and launch >>them at the bandits? And how does that cost compare to the reduced >>capabilities of a warship with lots of valuable space/mass taken up by >>decoys (inflatable or otherwise) plus the deployment mechanism? > >Assuming you've a handy moon, which Venus doesn't -- neither the >habitable water covered swamplike planet under the clouds RAH chose for >his novels of it, nor the one we know today, if you have the Delta V you >can apply to the 'handfull [mountain full?] of rocks' to start it on the >direction you think the invader will approach, it might work. But seems >to me if you don't know what angle they're likely to come in on, you're >going to have to throw lots of rocks to cover that expanding sphere out >there. How often? Once a day, continuously?No, in defense of Venus there wouldn't be quite as many options, especially if cost (money or energy) is an issue. For planets WITH moons, though, there's more options, especially (it seems to me) if the defending planet isn't in the same star system (due to higher energy expenditures for the attacking force, if nothing else... when you can't afford much your options can easily become quite limited).
I don't really have the orbital mechanics knowledge to work the numbers, though, so I may be way off, as well as the details depending on the specifics of the situation.
>(Remember, this is just general hypothesizing, not specific commentary >>on BP, which I've not yet read.) > >[snip of explanation of the Venus situation in BP] > >You might enjoy reading the story, Dan. :)I have a kinda longish list of books ahead of it, not to mention college-type stuff (decided it was well past time to get my lazy butt into gear, considering I turn 28 this May). :\
Dan Poore --
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) member #571; Junior member of the Cabal (tinc) ICQ UIN: 3908950 <http://wwp.mirabilis.com/3908950> A Meeting of Minds <http://nohbody.com/schtuff/meeting.html>- a (mostly) cliche-free first contact story (updated periodically)
From: William Hughes <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:44 PM
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:30:14 -0500, in alt.fan.heinlein Nohbody <firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:59:20 -0500, "Christopher A. Bohn" ><email@example.com>wrote: > >>Good afternoon, >> >>On 9 Jan 2003, Dont Be Fuelish wrote: >> >>>I'm sorry, but I can't see a balloon stopping anything. >>>Hiding you from the guy behind the gun maybe, but >> >>Which was my idea behind the inflatables -- hide the ship in the shadow of >>one. And since the inflatables will probably be detectable by their >>re-radiation of heat, include several decoys. Which inflatable is hiding >>the target? > >How expensive is it to grab some rocks from a handy moon and launch >them at the bandits? And how does that cost compare to the reduced >capabilities of a warship with lots of valuable space/mass taken up by >decoys (inflatable or otherwise) plus the deployment mechanism?Take a look at Echo 1, the first relay satellite - basically, a huge reflecting balloon. Fully inflated, it was something like 100' in diameter. Packed, it was the size of a basketball or less.
We are discussing spacecraft decoys, which presupposes other advances in technology. An inflatable decoy for a combat spacecraft, possibly with sensor-enhancement devices included, need not be any larger than the original Echo pre-deployment package. A spacecraft could carry a number of these attached to it's exterior hull, to be released as needed. They would occupy no interior space, could be jettisoned if necessary, and could provide some limited additional mass/armor protection to the spacecraft until deployed.
From: bookman <Thebookman@kc.rr.NULL.com>
Subject: Re: Between Planets
Date: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:34 AM
"Nohbody" <firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote in message news:email@example.com...
>On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:46:21 GMT, "David M. Silver" ><firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote: > >> Nohbody <email@example.com>wrote: >>>How expensive is it to grab some rocks from a handy moon and launch >>>them at the bandits? And how does that cost compare to the reduced >>>capabilities of a warship with lots of valuable space/mass taken up by >>>decoys (inflatable or otherwise) plus the deployment mechanism? >> >>Assuming you've a handy moon, which Venus doesn't -- neither the >>habitable water covered swamplike planet under the clouds RAH chose for >>his novels of it, nor the one we know today, if you have the Delta V you >>can apply to the 'handfull [mountain full?] of rocks' to start it on the >>direction you think the invader will approach, it might work. But seems >>to me if you don't know what angle they're likely to come in on, you're >>going to have to throw lots of rocks to cover that expanding sphere out >>there. How often? Once a day, continuously? > >No, in defense of Venus there wouldn't be quite as many options, >especially if cost (money or energy) is an issue. For planets WITH >moons, though, there's more options, especially (it seems to me) if >the defending planet isn't in the same star system (due to higher >energy expenditures for the attacking force, if nothing else... when >you can't afford much your options can easily become quite limited). > >I don't really have the orbital mechanics knowledge to work the >numbers, though, so I may be way off, as well as the details depending >on the specifics of the situation. >And Let's not forget velocity of the shots. Is it escape velocity, or slower? if slower, what orbit will each projectile end up in? Remember, these are ship-killers. Assuming escape velocity isn't a whole lot better, as you still have to know where they are going or you might wreck Mars' new satellite, gaining a new enemy.
Sure, space is big, but Murphy's law is bigger!
Regards from Heck!
-- Rusty the bookman Minion of Phil #0001 You don't understand the power of the insufficiently lit side. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, and they're starvation cheap - Kipling
oz, remember the Quail?
aggirlj has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: I be here, early as usual. Like my post huh?
AGplusone: Yes, I did. Was good.
AGplusone: But keep your hands away from your purse.
aggirlj: I thought everyone would enjoy it.
AGplusone: I think they did. How's your reading of BP?
aggirlj: I'm halfway through BP. He's working for the Chinaman.
AGplusone: Read fast. Got ten minutes ....
aggirlj: I know!!!!!!
aggirlj: I'm reading now.
AGplusone: so'm I, to review .... see you in 8 minutes
aggirlj: Hi Elizabeth!
aggirlj: She's not here yet, but on mybuddy list, oh well.
TreetopAngelRN2 has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Again, HOWDIE!
TreetopAngelRN2: Looks like I made it on time!
aggirlj: I'm reading as fast as I can, halfway through. David's reding too.
TreetopAngelRN2: Between Planets???
aggirlj: Yep. I a major procrastinator.
AGplusone: Quitting, huh? Good luck!
TreetopAngelRN2: Thanks David...trying like heck!
AGplusone: One reason I don't live in Montana . . .
TreetopAngelRN2: It's been so long since I read it, that I misplaced the book...
TreetopAngelRN2: yeah, it could get kinda nasty up here!:-D
aggirlj: We're supposed to have snow. Western slope seeding clouds we never see snow these days.
TreetopAngelRN2: we still haven't had any, just windy and cold right now
aggirlj: Was able to water my roses yesterday, now the wind chill is somewhere around 20.
aggirlj: I was so glad you'all were the ones to appreciate my post.
TreetopAngelRN2: same here, was wandering around without a coat and darned if it wasn't downright cold today! That was a funny post, Jane!
aggirlj: Just the highlights.
aggirlj: I need to find out about filters like Pixel. I don't get everything timely.
TreetopAngelRN2: are you readin from google?
AGplusone: Are you still using Google, Jane?
TreetopAngelRN2: that's the reason, Google is slooooooowwwwwwww!
AGplusone: No filters on Google, other than those it might use.
aggirlj: Okay. I guess I need to spend more time there. Oh God!
AGplusone: What server do you use, E?
AGplusone: she needs an ISP that she can get DSL on that actually brings her newsgroups.
Sarah Hoyt also had the same problem. Evidently there's nothing in Colorado Sps that carries newsgroups.
AGplusone: nothing easily available
TreetopAngelRN2: I am using the German one...News.CIS.DFN.DE
aggirlj: Should I copy that and try?
AGplusone: Wanna tell her how to do that? She could d/l MT-Newswatcher and use it, maybe.
TreetopAngelRN2: I can't remember how to get to it...Bookman knows...
AGplusone: Ed Marata (sp?) might know and tell her how to use it.
aggirlj: I keep inviting people to join us here. That was my subtle invitation in my reply to youse guys.
AGplusone: I'm using my verizon.net feed with MT-Newswatcher now instead of Netscape.
TreetopAngelRN2: I'll ask Rutsy to email you, Jnae
TreetopAngelRN2: cain't smell
aggirlj: That's okay, it's early...............LOL!!1
AGplusone: cain't smell, oughta improve soon.
AGplusone: Let me know.
TreetopAngelRN2: Having problems with people's names...okay Dvaid
AGplusone: Divad is the preferred spelling. Divad Revlis.
aggirlj: Revlis nelle enaj.
AGplusone: Dnob, semaj bnob!
aggirlj: Sounds like vulcan.
TreetopAngelRN2: I was only mixing up two letters...Htebazile Naej Snamouy
AGplusone: Jean's a nice name.
aggirlj: This woman is my parallel.
TreetopAngelRN2: Thanks, Jean Elizabeth is my Mother's best friend.
aggirlj: So wheres Sr.
AGplusone: David's out of town today. Be here Saturday.
TreetopAngelRN2: dunno, lost track of time??
aggirlj: So you're loggin' it.
AGplusone: always do ... back up David, keep one myself
AGplusone: Not much to logging. Just put the cursor in the room, use Cmd-A, Cmd C, and paste to another document.
aggirlj: Well, one thing I'll say about BP is that it's movin' a pace. I will have finished it by Sat. Liking it a lot.
AGplusone: Then save.
AGplusone: That's Control to you, E.
TreetopAngelRN2: Yes, I assumed that...does D SR. edit much before putting it on the site?? We seem to go off on tangents...
AGplusone: I liked Collier's recent reply to my 'couple questions' post. [he edits as lightly as possible]
TreetopAngelRN2: I am still reading the NG
AGplusone: Sometimes censors stuff that shouldn't be public, or when someone requests personal information be taken out.
aggirlj: Seems to me he gets all the good stuff in there. A diverting is interesting.
TreetopAngelRN2: haven't seen it yet
aggirlj: I haven't either.
AGplusone: Collier's usually a lot more fun than people give him credit for ... but prickly.
TreetopAngelRN2: Dang! I just washed my hands and can't do a thing with them!!
aggirlj: You are too much!
AGplusone: Including the Vulcan salute?
aggirlj: I like that one. Didn't know he was jewish.
TreetopAngelRN2: That I can do, type??? No!
aggirlj: Ooops, Jewish, capital Jane.\
aggirlj: At least that's where they put the origination of the sign.
TreetopAngelRN2: Maybe I should put my Nimoy story in Jani's Tavern...
aggirlj: Yeah, we need something new.
AGplusone: Oh, Spock. So's his brother, the sports announcer.
AGplusone: or cousin, I forget which
aggirlj: Where does he sport comment? Never heard of him.
AGplusone: used to in LA
AGplusone: Stu Nahan
aggirlj: Well obviously Nimoy is not his real name.
AGplusone: let me know when you guys finish reading the comments ...
aggirlj: Of what?
AGplusone: re BP
jilyd has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Oh new blood~!
AGplusone: Hi, Dee
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Dee!!
TreetopAngelRN2: Jane, story is up!
jilyd: Hi, David, Jane, E. Have I missed much?
TreetopAngelRN2: Just us chickens chatting
AGplusone: Only the entire discussion . . .
jilyd: Tried earlier, too early, and then was chatting with Nuke.
jilyd: Phbbllt!, AG.
aggirlj: That's * * * * *
TreetopAngelRN2: There, read Collier's note..good job, but it's obvious he doesn't understand the reason we are discussing BP right now, i.e. using the novels as teaching tools.
jilyd: What was your question, E?
AGplusone: Oh, he does. He's rattling chains ...
AGplusone: I think his point about novels having quick ends is a valid as any.
aggirlj: Which thread?
TreetopAngelRN2: No question Dee, just answering a previous one of David's...
jilyd: LN is good at chain yanking! Has a real talent, that boy does.
TreetopAngelRN2: He yanked my chain real good a couple of times...
AGplusone: Problem with chain yanking ... sometimes you get the tiger.
AGplusone: Not the flush.
TreetopAngelRN2: or a fat broad with PMS!!!
TreetopAngelRN2: time to get out the blue pencil again, sorry!
AGplusone: LOL ... I've been known to edit most everything ...
jilyd: yeah, and I suspect E can be plenty of tiger if she really wants to. Tries never to hurt anyone, unless the really NEED hirting, our E does.
aggirlj: It's called Mother.
TreetopAngelRN2: Everyone keeps telling me that kind of thing!! I am meek and shy!!!
AGplusone: How would you teach 'revolution' or 'war' as a point to seventh graders. That's what they novel is really about.
AGplusone: this novel
AGplusone: It's about alienation, and finding a place to nest, and all that ... and the cost of bone money, to steal from the title of the chapter that has Old Charlie getting it, but . . .
AGplusone: and choosing sides
aggirlj: When you're society is completely at the mercy of tyraniccal beruacracies then you revolt.
TreetopAngelRN2: I would first see if they understand the reasons for revolution...but would 7th graders get that?
jilyd: Well, I have been thinking about your question about BP being too violent. I think one lad's viewpont of the pieces he sees provides a context that is more personal and less mystifying than some of what we see on CNN.
AGplusone: Do we really get a lot about the tyrany of the Earth Federation ... or was it the simple "taxation without representation" stuff?
TreetopAngelRN2: not much tyrany in this book, as in others
TreetopAngelRN2: Red Panet was obvious, not so in BP.
AGplusone: What we see on CNN as justification for war wouldn't sell anyone if there were a draft today, would it?
TreetopAngelRN2: not me...
jilyd: Johnny Tremaine is a good kid's book, for late elementary school
age, even. And not exactly non-violent, if I remember correctly.
TreetopAngelRN2: Haven't heard of that one, Dee.
AGplusone: I remember it, but never really analyzed it. It was just "history" for a setting.
AGplusone: Disney made a movie of it in the 1960s.
AGplusone: Was a classic for kids.
AGplusone: Kid in New England in 1776
jilyd: It has been many years, but a young lad is a silversmith's apprentice and gets involved in the Ameican Rev.
TreetopAngelRN2: Hmmm...never saw it! Must be the only Disney I ever missed.
AGplusone: Guess whose apprentice?
TreetopAngelRN2: Paul Revere???
AGplusone: "ready to ride and spread the alarm"
aggirlj: Oh god, Paul . . . yes, you witch.
AGplusone: I don't think I read it until I was reading van Wyck Mason pretty regularly.
jilyd: Had a fifthe=grade teacher who alays read a chapter of a book aoud after lunch. JT was one.
AGplusone: And he had a lot of historical fiction of the Revolution, not exactly juveniles, but close.
aggirlj: Wonderful teacher!
TreetopAngelRN2: Maybe if BP is taught along with US history and the Revolutionary war....taught as secondary reading for the concept of revolution.
AGplusone: So as Collier pointed out, really very little except Old Charlie getting burned down that was very graphic violence.
TreetopAngelRN2: sounds like a wonderful teacher
aggirlj: God what a concept E! Ying and yang.
AGplusone: And as Ward Griffith notes, nothing even close to the Grimms Bros or the 'fairy tales' we saw.
TreetopAngelRN2: They guy getting burned on the wire was fairly graphic.
AGplusone: Or the fare on TV. Or video games.
TreetopAngelRN2: True, BP is a far cry from the Brthers Grimm...
AGplusone: That's true. Can't forget that one.
aggirlj: Okay, I haven't got that far. Bad girl!
jilyd: I agree, David. Not as graphic as those, yet far more empathetic.
AGplusone: But the outcry generated by the nutso news casters, about video games, really is exaggerated, isn't it?
AGplusone: Does any of that really influence kids? It's the old "don't let them play with cap pistols" outcry.
TreetopAngelRN2: They act like kids are incapable of understanding the difference between reality and unreality.
AGplusone: Idiot fringe.
TreetopAngelRN2: They say the same thing about Road Runner and Coyote cartoons...
aggirlj: Somewhat. It's hard to imagine the only reference being video games. And, as you've noted David, every generation has their window to the world.
AGplusone: But once the bookburners get going, it's every book, isn't it?
aggirlj: I'll be the librarian, got's lots of room.
jilyd: Well, I grew up playing cowboys and indians and cops and robbers, too, with my trusty six-shhter cap pistol, so I think much of teh to-do is silly. But if I had kids, I don;t think I would want them to spend an unbalanced amount of
TreetopAngelRN2: that's why I fight to not allow even one book to go on the bonfire...
AGplusone: Hell, I've got a scar from Jane's cap pistol. Had it since we were five.
jilyd: their time on shoot-em-up ganes and movies. Especially the "splatter" kind.
aggirlj: Wait a mintute! I've got the scar on my upper lip boyo.
TreetopAngelRN2: the long periods of time kids are allowed to spend on video games is their parents fault...
AGplusone: Or was it the other way around ... Brian, our brother, got me.
TreetopAngelRN2: <pulling up a bleacher>
aggirlj: LOL LOL LOL.
AGplusone: When you run out of caps you haveta use it as a club.
pixelmeow has entered the chat room.
TreetopAngelRN2: <<<<loves spectator sports
AGplusone: Sometimes Tonto gets in the way of an errant swing.
jilyd: And those old cast metal ones were lethal clubs, too!
aggirlj: Hi ya Theresa.
TreetopAngelRN2: HI!!! PIX!!!!
AGplusone: Hi, Pix
pixelmeow: hello, all!
pixelmeow: sorry I'm late, it's girl scout night.
TreetopAngelRN2: I never had a cap gun, had to use a rock or a hammer...
TreetopAngelRN2: I knew you were young Pix, but Girl Scouts.....
AGplusone: We're talking about the exaggerated significance that censors put on every little act of violence, in books, in video games, in whatever . . .
AGplusone: Is Heather old enough to be a Brownie?
aggirlj: He ladies, how much fun is it having one man to play with?
jilyd: One of the ladies gave everyone in the congregation a BIG peppermint stick Sunday before Christmas, at an informal sharing service after the regular service. One little guy was soon running up the aisle pinting his peppermint stick
AGplusone: Or Camp Fire starter, or whatever they are.
TreetopAngelRN2: Heather is old enough for Brownies.
jilyd: going, "Pow, pow." Little boys will be little boys, whether you let them have gun toys or not.
AGplusone: [ . . . that was the solution! What are little girls good for? To start barbecues.]
aggirlj: We're great firestarters.
TreetopAngelRN2: Charlie found a stick and made a gun.
AGplusone: That's right. Got some spam, er, a nice e-mail from Pix offering to sell me Girl Sprout Cookies!
jilyd: At least with our own fellas, right jane?;-)
aggirlj: Thre's obviously a little delay here.
jilyd: I'm a slow typist.
TreetopAngelRN2: I'm a moron...
pixelmeow: okay, sorry, had to feed the monster...
aggirlj: Well I used 'ta be Davids Secetary.
pixelmeow: yes, she's a Brownie
pixelmeow: and anyone who would like Girl Scout cookies just let me know.
AGplusone: Yeah! or Yay!
aggirlj: I'm up for it. Email me.
AGplusone: Great photo Howard took of you two
pixelmeow: And yes, I do think there's an exaggerated whoopdedoo put on violence, to some extent.
jilyd: And neither of you killed the other, jane? Hard for family to work together anyhow, but in a law office? That's really tough. You guys must be exceptional sibs.
aggirlj: I believe there are times when you HAVE to fight.
AGplusone: How old would you want Heather to be before she read BP, Teresa?
pixelmeow: It was Bryan taking photos, unless I'm forgetting something?
AGplusone: ooops .... got confused
pixelmeow: David, I've been looking all over for BP and can't find it.
AGplusone: Byran was back from Jordan. I forget.
pixelmeow: I can't for the life of me remember the plot, or anything.
pixelmeow: And yes, he did get some great photos.
TreetopAngelRN2: I have an extra copy of it Pix!
Dehede011 has entered the chat room.
pixelmeow: Remind me of the plot and I may remember where it is...
pixelmeow: hey there!
Dehede011: Evening gentle folk
AGplusone: Hi, Ron. We're outnumbered, or blessed, take your pick.
aggirlj: Hi Ron.
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Ron!
Dehede011: Hey I never fight out of my class
jilyd has left the chat room.
AGplusone: 'blessed' then
pixelmeow: Jane, do you have an email I can send to?
aggirlj: Dee got booted.
pixelmeow: so I see...
jilyd has left the chat room.
AGplusone: spinning door for Dee ... she must need to reboot
Dehede011: I hate it when that happens to me
AGplusone: We were talking about the degree of violence in BP, but we may be talked out on it.
AGplusone: What did you like the most about BP, Ron?
TreetopAngelRN2: Plot of BP: Young man born in space, one parent born on Venus the other Earth. War is on the horizon and his parents send for him...to Mars. Does that help Pix??
Dehede011: Most seemed either very sanitary or off page
aggirlj: Say what?
AGplusone: Yes. the real throat cutting took place during that hiatus after Don Harvey went into the bush. Glided over it very quickly.
Dehede011: Most of the violence in BP seemed very sanitary or off page
Dehede011: Right AG
aggirlj: Thanks. It must be the GM.
TreetopAngelRN2: just enough to make it real for Don.
jilyd has entered the chat room.
pixelmeow: I am not remembering this.
pixelmeow: Hey, dee...
aggirlj: Welcome back.
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Dee!
jilyd: I'm baaaack.
pixelmeow: Would any of you who got my cookie email please forward it to anyone else?
AGplusone: Although just sailing on past the encapsulated Space Navy ships seemed rather cold-blooded ... and the Dead Man's switch gave me a little pause when I first read it at around age eleven.
Dehede011: The artist for Blue Book really made Isobel very attractive
jilyd: Lost my train of thought, though. I'll just sit quiwtky foir a moment and catch up.
pixelmeow: I am really not remembering this story.
aggirlj: And the blasting of the space ship returning to Earth.
AGplusone: Sure, Pixel. I've got just the list ...
pixelmeow: Thanks, David@ Reilloc has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: Hi, LN ...
Reilloc: Hi, Dave
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi LN!
jilyd: Hi, LN.
aggirlj: Who 'dat say who dat, Hi LN.
Dehede011: Howdy, Rei
pixelmeow: Who's the main char of the story?
AGplusone: Meet my sister (aggirl) ....
Reilloc: Don Ho
AGplusone: Don Harvey
Reilloc: Hi, Dave's sister
TreetopAngelRN2: Don Harvey
pixelmeow: and where is he/
pixelmeow: what's he doing there?
AGplusone: He starts on Earth, away at school ....
Reilloc: Hanging 9
pixelmeow: (sorry, just can't remember this)
aggirlj: Riding his horse.
TreetopAngelRN2: on Eareth at first then on to Venus, joins the revolutionaries...
AGplusone: boarding school
pixelmeow: missing a toe???
Reilloc: That's the subtitle
Reilloc: Under the missingtoe
AGplusone: winds up having to evacuate quickly
Dehede011: Heard of a legendary guy that could hang eleven
pixelmeow: so... he goes to Venus, why?
Reilloc: Because they won't let him go to Mars
Dehede011: He had an extra toe
Sarah Hoyt has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Say Sarah.
Sarah Hoyt: Hi everyone.
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Sarah!
AGplusone: Hi, Sarah
pixelmeow: I guess I just am not going to remember this.
Dehede011: Hi Sarah
pixelmeow: I'll just sit and watch...
TreetopAngelRN2: Pix, as I said I have an extra copy...
Sarah Hoyt: I'll be up and down a bunch. With the kiddies and dinner and ...
aggirlj: I've only read half of it.
AGplusone: We may have to take up a collection to get Teresa the juveniles ....
pixelmeow: Well, Jon got me quite a few last XMas...
aggirlj: Oh, sorry Teresa, not Theresa.
pixelmeow: that's okay, Jane!!!
pixelmeow: happens all the time.
Sarah Hoyt: My husband, whom I love and adore, has a boxed set of juveniles, but he doesn't want me to mess them up...
Sarah Hoyt: And I bought Robert a set, but he doesn't want me to mess them up...
Sarah Hoyt: I need one of my own.
TreetopAngelRN2: he sounds like a meanie
Dehede011: A true Heinlein fan is what I say
AGplusone: How much does the Federation remind you of what some fear Ashcroft et al may be leading up to, anyone?
pixelmeow: E, if you wouldn't mind, would you send me yours?
Dehede011: Not at all
AGplusone: I really have been thinking rather hard about what we have today ...
pixelmeow: If Ashcroft has his way, I'm leaving.
Dehede011: Me too, the Pres is boss
Sarah Hoyt: But, go where?
Reilloc: Ashcroft and Heinlein are Missourians
pixelmeow: No idea.
pixelmeow: But I don't like Ashcroft's ideas.
pixelmeow: At All.
Sarah Hoyt: Um... I've been elsewhere and it becomes a matter of staying in the frying pan. Fire is hoter.
Reilloc: This is being logged
aggirlj: You boys better step back, the ladies are in contro.
Sarah Hoyt: hotter.
AGplusone: yeah, but I'm a little leery how 'easy' this war seems to be getting started. Anyone see Coppel last night. The Marine and his dad?
pixelmeow: So it is.
TreetopAngelRN2: yes, send me your address again and I'll let Don know to take it off the Exchange.
pixelmeow: I'm taking over the Exchange, don't worry about it.
pixelmeow: We'll consider it an Exchange.
Sarah Hoyt: This is WHY we wanted space colonies... Sigh, always some place to go.
AGplusone: Kid who enlisted out of the fancy Eastern Prep School, that no one "enlists" from these days.
Reilloc: Who thought up the name "Homeland Security?"
pixelmeow: Dunno, do you?
AGplusone: Right. Der Vaterland.
Dehede011: Why pick on Ashcroft??
Reilloc: No shit.
Reilloc: Pick on him?
pixelmeow: Not picking on him, just disagree very much.
AGplusone: He's rather pickable.
AGplusone: Trust him about as far as I can throw him.
Reilloc: I'm almost speechless.
pixelmeow: I don't like the idea that everything everyone does is kept in a database somewhere.
Dehede011: For many years he was a dull unremarkable missouri politician then the Dems wanted a scapegoat
Reilloc: Dems wanted a what?
aggirlj: Didn't you know this was gonna' happen.
Dehede011: a scrapegoat
AGplusone: Too conservative to get reelected in Missouri ... what do that say?
Dehede011: He was elected Gov
AGplusone: So was Gray Davis
Dehede011: I am saying lets don't turn this into a political rant
AGplusone: Talking about dull
Reilloc: That's what the book's about.
pixelmeow: Who's ranting???
TreetopAngelRN2: agrees with Ron...
aggirlj: Sometimes heat is good!
AGplusone: It's not political, it's a little frightening ...
Dehede011: Listen and you shall hear
pixelmeow: Well, since I can't seem to remember what the story is about...
aggirlj: Dee, Dee, Dee.
Dehede011: If you wish to pretend it is
pixelmeow: I'll just listen to you guys.
aggirlj: Sparring is fun. I love it.
Reilloc: Pretend a story about revolution isn't political?
AGplusone: we don't need to fight each others, but there is the "Mene, mene, tekel, upsharsin" aspect here
Sarah Hoyt: BRB. Souffle (Sp?) coming out of the oven. I'll stay on and read over the stuff when I get back on. (I figure it's the only way I'll make these meetings, with the kids and all.)
Reilloc: Don missed Mars until the end but you're there now if you don't think this is political
Dehede011: And the BS component as well
Reilloc: Those are three, Babylonian coins, Dave
AGplusone: I think 1951 had to be somewhat political. You had HUAC running about, people flying fl
ags from their radio antenna, etc ....
Dehede011: That is inconsistant with the "silent generation.
AGplusone: This was the year the Oscars themselves were politicized.
pixelmeow: David, what did that phrase mean?
aggirlj: They're doing it now.
AGplusone: something like "I have seen thy days and they are numbered"
pixelmeow: Ah. Thanks.
Reilloc: Weighed, weighed, measured and balanced.
AGplusone: forget the exact quote
AGplusone: Yeah, that's closer
pixelmeow: What was the violence and all that you guys were talking about earlier?
Reilloc: It's said that the phrase is a bi- or tri-lingual pun and that it has Babylonian political implications.
Dehede011: Just that it was pretty sanitary or else off page
AGplusone: Imagine ... an "FBI" agent tells you, er, your "uncle" had heart failure while we were questioning him.
AGplusone: sorry, *IBI
pixelmeow: Were you thinking about that along with how people try to blame high school shootings on Ramstein????
aggirlj: Well to start with, Dee, there is a security element which is waaaaay intimitdating.
Reilloc: I was thinking about it in the Carnahan context.
AGplusone: The flaming of Old Charlie, the shooting down of the ship sent back with Earth Citizens after the Venus High Guard captured the satellite, and a few other things.
Dehede011: Old Charlie was about the most unsanitary but even there...........
pixelmeow: Wish I could have found that book last night when I was looking.
AGplusone: They put Don on the ship to Venus, sent the rest of the passengers bound for elsewhere than Venus back. Blew up the satellite because it had atom bomb rockets circling Earth to "enforce the peace" ....
TreetopAngelRN2: I could have sent it with the Lord Darcy if I had known...
AGplusone: and the Earth Air Defense got trigger happy and blew up its own returned citizens.
Dehede011: But the shooting down of the Earth bound ship was way off page
pixelmeow: Sorry, E, I only found out last night...
AGplusone: Did something like that happen in Moon is a Harsh Mistress ... or they were afraid it might?
Reilloc: What's "way off page" mean?
aggirlj: Yeah, I thought so.
TreetopAngelRN2: kidding Pix!
AGplusone: McMasters says, later, "Didn't the rumor get back to you. They blew it up."
TreetopAngelRN2: I am so cruel!
aggirlj: Interesting that it was a "rumor."
aggirlj: Had all news agencies been disposed of?
AGplusone: The High Guard manning the ship knew. They didn't bother to tell the civilians.
AGplusone: The Sergeant figured it would leak.
TreetopAngelRN2: It was another prod for Don Harvey, he would have been on that ship except for fate...
aggirlj: And standing up?
AGplusone: Sgt McMasters ....
Dehede011: brb, water
pixelmeow: so what did Don end up doing?
Reilloc: Saving the universe
AGplusone: I agreed with the avoid the pillow talk point you made, LN.
pixelmeow: Very funny....
Reilloc: The proportions of sex to violence flip-flopped
TreetopAngelRN2: He ended up on Venus, Pix
AGplusone: If you read H.G. Wells, who RAH may have been using, previously, as a model, and did in some books, the device of action is far superior.
pixelmeow: doing what?
aggirlj: I haven't gotten there ye.
Reilloc: Are you saying the device of action is superior or that Wells and Heinlein thought so?
TreetopAngelRN2: joining the revolutionaries after working to keep alive...
pixelmeow: what are they called?
AGplusone: I'm saying the device is superior. I think Wells' fiction is boring because there's too much 'pillow talk' and Heinlein learned the lesson after the first few stories he wrote.
AGplusone: I think a few stories Heinlein wrote suffer from too much pillow talk.
pixelmeow: I think I agree with that, David; that Wells is boring for that reason.
Reilloc: I think you can move plot through dialogue and not be in bed.
pixelmeow: From what I remember, that is.
Dehede011: Doesn't Heinlein also inform us by what the POV character notices??
aggirlj: Are you saying exposition?
AGplusone: Yes. didactic exposition
AGplusone: narrative works better
AGplusone: 'pillow talk' of whatever sort is the exposition
Reilloc: Asimov could write a good story without a lot of physical action.
AGplusone: even if your head isn't on a pillow per se]
TreetopAngelRN2: passive voice...
aggirlj: I like it when the "cut to the chase," but I need some background.
Dehede011: Reilloc, when I noticed that I quit preferring Asimov to Heinlein
AGplusone: My least favorite Heinlein novel is Beyond This Horizon. I'll have to look at it from the pillow talk standpoint, but I suspect I'll find more than a bit.
pixelmeow: *not remembering that story either*
pixelmeow: but I know I have it...
AGplusone: Of course, his later fiction has a lot of pillow talk ... but somehow he pulls it off without being too boring for his readers, or those who he's hooked.
pixelmeow: I just can't put titles with stories, for some reason.
pixelmeow: Unless it is the later ones, or the future history...
Reilloc: His pillow talk is so stilted, though.
pixelmeow: I like it, tho.
Dehede011: For those he has hooked, I hear the younger ones complaining about him talking too much
AGplusone: In a way it is: but I suspect he's inhibited too much to write real pillow talk.
pixelmeow: how so?
aggirlj: Lack of?
aggirlj: Just a joke.
Reilloc: Is that a blaster under your kilt or are you just happy to be published?
pixelmeow: silly girl.
AGplusone: I rarely get didactic when I engage in pillow talk to my wife.
pixelmeow: Hm, what are you referring to?
AGplusone: Unless I'm certain there ain't gonna be no more tonight ...
pixelmeow: (from the story)
jilyd has left the chat room.
aggirlj: Oh, boothed once again.
aggirlj: booted, (whoa, 86.)
pixelmeow: isn't that "enboothe"?
Reilloc: Deus ex machina, Dave...
jilyd has entered the chat room.
Reilloc: Was it really since that was what they were working toward the whole time?
Dehede011: When I listen to RAH in his non-fiction he sounds like an absolute straight arrow that wants to sound like a player
AGplusone: I did notice the "Pay It Forward" for the first time when "Uncle Tom" gives Don the dollar ... thanks for pointing that out, Ron.
aggirlj: Oh, that was my discovery too.
BPRAL22169 has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: But it's very hard for him to write as a player when he writes fiction.
pixelmeow: hey bill!
aggirlj: Hey Bill!
BPRAL22169: I missed the first hour again, didn't I?
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Bill!
Reilloc: Stay an hour after.
Dehede011: Hi Bill,
BPRAL22169: Hey, it's the poetess.
BPRAL22169: I had to check afh before coming on.
TreetopAngelRN2: did you read the story?
Dehede011: One thing really puzzles me. He wrote one of the best fight scenes I ever read in TEFL
BPRAL22169: Which story?
pixelmeow: Bill probably doesn't need to...
TreetopAngelRN2: you calling me a poetess?
BPRAL22169: Oh, Between Planets? I didn't make a special read -- it's one of my (too many) favorites.
Dehede011: But generally he does not sound like a fighter in his conflict scenes
BPRAL22169: No, aggirlj is the poetess laureate of AFH.
TreetopAngelRN2: ahhh....got it!
BPRAL22169: I hope you washed yourhands.
AGplusone: Someone in my family had to have literary talent. I certainly don't.
aggirlj: Too shy!
TreetopAngelRN2: I posted a story in Jani's tavern and it concerns poetry...
BPRAL22169: I don't think so; it doesn't ring bells. There is so much miscellaneous chatter on afh these days I don't follow much of the threads at all.
AGplusone: The only scenes I found credible in ways were the swordfighting scenes, and the basic training scenes.
Dehede011: Amen, Bill
AGplusone: Something he had experience with, I suspect.
Dehede011: Yes, plus that scene in TEFL except for the preceding dialogue
AGplusone: and the "presently I got tired and went to sleep"
BPRAL22169: I'm trying to recall a swordfighting scene in TEFL.
AGplusone: none, referring to Glory Road
aggirlj: Not sure if he doesn't mean BP.
Dehede011: I am talking about the gunfight, Bill
BPRAL22169: got it.
AGplusone: Speaking of which, notice the name of the ship Don leaves Earth on, and the rocky road it travels, getting burned when it tries to go home again?
Dehede011: But I don't feel that way about the dialogue leading to the gunfight
AGplusone: No. Glory Road
aggirlj: Oh, man I couldn't think of it?
TreetopAngelRN2: the shuttle to the Pathfinder...DOH!
Dehede011: I thought AGplus said something about the "2nd level" in BP that was well worth repeating
Dehede011: I am referring to the pre chat postings
AGplusone: better repeat it, Ron. I probably forgot it as soon as I said it ...
Dehede011: Dang Dave, you get off some good ones and then you forget. LOL
Dehede011: You were talking about RAH's overall intent in BP
AGplusone: That's because I'm a walking profundity ... ask my sister, been boring her since we were four.
Reilloc: You're twins?
Dehede011: And you thought it was to acquaint the teeners that they would soon be grown and involved in serious stuff
aggirlj: 20 months.
Dehede011: Is that reasonably close?
AGplusone: In 1951, a lead pipe cinch. Draft was running full bore.
AGplusone: And it was cold in Korea that winter.
Dehede011: Yes, and I was 17
TreetopAngelRN2: I remember the post, trying to teach the kids that life out of school was harder than life in school and the responsibilities they would face.
aggirlj: Ah, and they are talkin' about reistituin'.
TreetopAngelRN2: I think it's catching, Jane.
Dehede011: I hope not
AGplusone: They'll do that over Shrub's dead body. If there's a draft there'll never be a war.
Dehede011: nd that is the motive behind the motive
AGplusone: I think so too. Rangel's very transparent.
Dehede011: motive behind the motion -- sorry LOL
Sarah Hoyt: I ALWAYS get didactic when I engage in pillow talk with my husband. He needs it. I'm bettering his mind.
AGplusone: Which gets us into two points: Heinlein's prediction that the US will never launch an offensive war, and his position on the draft, that any country that needs one doesn't deserve to survive.
AGplusone: Where do you go what that set of points, anyone?
BPRAL22169: I think Bush II is set upon proving the truth of that last assertion.
Reilloc: Will Rogers never met John Ashcroft
Dehede011: Are we back to JA again??
AGplusone: [or possibly Cheney . . . ]
aggirlj: Out of the past, way good.
AGplusone: We could pick on anyone of 'em
Reilloc: No, let's do Rangel and the transparency of motivations.
AGplusone: That's fair. I'll do Rangel. He do have a point if you look at it from his there shouldn't be this war viewpoint.
Dehede011: Touche Monsieur Pussycat, as they said in the Three Mouseketeers cartoons
pixelmeow: Well, people, it's nighty-night time here.
pixelmeow: Nice seeing you all,
Dehede011: Night Pixel
aggirlj: Oh, wah!!!!1
AGplusone: cluck, cluck
pixelmeow: have fun,
AGplusone: bye Pix
pixelmeow: see you on AIM,
TreetopAngelRN2: Night, Pix...send me your address again
pixelmeow: k, E
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
Reilloc: He has a point that if there is a war it shouldn't be fought by the poor while the Ashcroft progeny sit at home and tend to the important work of database maintenance.
Sarah Hoyt: Jane -- can you send me a message at firstname.lastname@example.org? That way I can respond and then my address book will stop losing you.
BPRAL22169: But that's the way it's done, you know.
AGplusone: I agree with that. But, I say again, did anyone watch Koppel last night?
Sarah Hoyt: Nope.
Sarah Hoyt: Sorry.
aggirlj: Yes Sarah.
Sarah Hoyt: Thanks, Jane.
AGplusone: "We" don't enlist anymore. Not if we have a future.
BPRAL22169: No tv
Sarah Hoyt: TV but not fond of it.
BPRAL22169: That could change.
AGplusone: The boy who enlisted out of the fancy east coast prep school was such an exception, it was "news" to Koppel.
Dehede011: Nope, I didn't watch him
AGplusone: Instead our wars get fought by 'professionals' whom very few of us know or see or even hear about.
Sarah Hoyt: ... the having a future part? Has changed, if the expected future was in technology. Bleak a few years into the future. Unless we have some major inovation in tech coming up soon. (And doubtful, R & R cut.)
AGplusone: Pretty easy to start a war if you're Dub-yah if that's the limit.
BPRAL22169: I wonder exactly how much enthusiasm we're supposed to work up for Daddy's oil company war, revisited.
Dehede011: Right, but for guys like I was the Army has quite a program these days
TreetopAngelRN2: one of our boys has enlisted and served...ARMY
AGplusone: Well, maybe the reason the 'recovery' program Shrub has proposed is to boost enlistments?
Dehede011: Your son enlisted??
Musiquelle26 has entered the chat room.
Dehede011: Who is Shrub??
TreetopAngelRN2: stepson, enlisted almost out of highschool.
Reilloc: The DUI Thief Executive
Dehede011: Busch makes beer.
AGplusone: Son of Bush I, aka Dub-yah.
Dehede011: Oh, the good guy
AGplusone: Yeah, him.
Dehede011: Why Schrub
BPRAL22169: little bush = shrub
Dehede011: Dang, missed it
Dehede011: slow tonight
Reilloc: The guy born to the guy born with a silver foot in his mouth
Reilloc: If you say so.
Dehede011: He is talking around something?? LOL
aggirlj: Hi Stephanie.
Musiquelle26: Hi there...was trying to lurk
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Stephanie!
AGplusone: The Hero of the Defense of the Northern border of Baja Oklahoma.
Musiquelle26: I'm not boned up on anything
aggirlj: No good, try again.
Dehede011: Hi Stephanie
AGplusone: Hi, Step, speaking of someone who has actually enlisted and served.
Dehede011: Thank AG, I did
AGplusone: Some of us old farts also did. We're talking about the young uns.
Dehede011: Okay, may I get off politics and tell a W story?
Musiquelle26: I wish it was mandatory, at least two years
Reilloc: I'd like to see you try.
AGplusone: The ones who apparently didn't read Heinlein growing up.
Dehede011: You will be repeating it tomorrow.
jilyd has left the chat room.
AGplusone: Yeah, tell the W story. Why not?
Sarah Hoyt: I tried to enlist. In Portugal. Okay, there were no jobs. But they told me I lacked some equipment way down southerly...
Sarah Hoyt: I'm sorry David. I read the juveniles as an adult, didn't re-read them. They slid off me.
BPRAL22169: You lost some equipment in Spain?
Sarah Hoyt: Kids kill brain sells.
Dehede011: Have you ever checked out what W was actually flying, connected that to the story that his Dad was
Sarah Hoyt: Was born w'out it. Sad. Most sad for the Portuguese army, of course. Not for me.
Dehede011: scared to death every time he went up and then drawn some conclusions
AGplusone: Thot they were F-4s, but never checked closely.
Musiquelle26: I read the adults as a kid/teen, then the juvies as an adult
Sarah Hoyt: Me too. Although part of this was what was available in translation.
Dehede011: No, not F-4s. It was a third line flyer
AGplusone: What did they give the Champagne Squadron, Spads?
Dehede011: The suspicion is the AF didn't want him flying anything valuable enough to be in combat
BPRAL22169: Not surprising for someone who looks like Alfred E. Newman.
aggirlj: What???? Me worry1
Reilloc: You've insulted Mr. Newman.
Musiquelle26: I agree there
TreetopAngelRN2: reason I backed out of enlisting...recruitment officer told me I could have the school I wanted if I had sex with him...he was my boyfriends father
Dehede011: The F-4 was front line, I can't remember the 2nd line fighter and W's was absolutely 3rd line
AGplusone: Probably F-94s back then, maybe.
AGplusone: Surely not F-100s
Dehede011: They came out with two models of a delta wing fighter during Korea
Dehede011: The first one wasn't very good. That is the one
AGplusone: F-94 was late Korea
AGplusone: Wasn't exactly a Delta tho
Dehede011: No, I think the 94 was another plane, wasn't it?
Dehede011: This was a delta
Dehede011: Look, I like the guy, but show me one piece of evidence he was ever an athlete.
AGplusone: Dub-yah's a cheerleader.
Dehede011: In prep school he was a cheerleader for the teams
aggirlj: Break time?
Dehede011: A lot of good people can't drive airplanes
AGplusone: Yeah, t'ink so ... need to grab a bite. How about back at 5 past the hour?
aggirlj: Yeah, you betcha'.
AGplusone: Bill, you got the conn.
Sarah Hoyt: Okay...
AGplusone: [penalty for being late]
Sarah Hoyt: David, what am I supposed to read for Tuesday?
Sarah Hoyt: Before you go.
Sarah Hoyt: I have to leave.
Sarah Hoyt: Kiddies.
Sarah Hoyt: Project on viral DNA transference. (Robert is doing it. NOT me doing it to the kiddies.)
AGplusone: Tuesday? Saturday is day two on this. Next meeting, we'll read Waldo. Bill's cohost.
Sarah Hoyt: I'm being paged with increasing urgency.
Sarah Hoyt: Saturday?
Sarah Hoyt: Waldo?
Sarah Hoyt: Can do.
Dehede011: I am being paged also. See you guys and gals. Bye
Dehede011 has left the chat room.
Sarah Hoyt: Bye.
Sarah Hoyt has left the chat room.
TreetopAngelRN2: that was quick!
aggirlj: Dem ladies don't waste not time.
BPRAL22169: My, the room is clearing ut.
Reilloc: In order to what, Bill?
TreetopAngelRN2: I'm staying on as long as Jane, just to prove I can do it!!!:-D
BPRAL22169: That's a darned good question.
aggirlj: Three and three, way good.
aggirlj: Hey Eliz?
TreetopAngelRN2: Yeah, Jane?
Dehede011 has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Oh, she's back!
Dehede011: I was paged by someone special but they went offline before I could answer
BPRAL22169: Jane, I think you were going to e-mail Sarah -- tell her Saturday is a continuation for Between Planets and Waldo won't be for another two weeks.
BPRAL22169: I think she thinks Waldo is two days from now.
aggirlj: Just that we have to maitain. . . . . right Bill, I got that too.
TreetopAngelRN2: I was typing that up when she left suddenly
BPRAL22169: Things have slowed down recently for the Saturday sessions.
aggirlj: They'll get going again.
TreetopAngelRN2: I try to show up...for an hour at least
Dehede011: These things always blow hot and cold
BPRAL22169: What did I miss during the first hour? Any talk about "The Man Without a Country"?
Dehede011: brb, refreshments
aggirlj: Nope, you beat me woman.
BPRAL22169: I was intrigued by the way Heinlein took a tragedy and turned it into a comedy.
AGplusone: <-----this is me spooning salmon and reading and typing with one finger
aggirlj: Bill, I'm only half through.
BPRAL22169: OK. No spoilers.
TreetopAngelRN2: Comedy, Bill??
BPRAL22169: Anyway, nobody else seems to have picked up that thread.
BPRAL22169: Yeah. Between Planets is a comedy -- not humorous, just the other thing than tr
BPRAL22169: (though there is some wry humor in it.)
AGplusone: you think the Hale story applies? howso?
BPRAL22169: For two reasons, quotha -- the important one is he said it applied.
BPRAL22169: The other is, it looks to me like an inversion of the Hale story.
BPRAL22169: (which would be one way of turning a tragedy's pity and terror into comedy)
AGplusone: who's he seduced by, McMaster?
Dehede011: I wonder -- did he consciously invert the Hale story before starting BP
AGplusone: or Isaac Newton, or Dr. Dudley Jefferson?
BPRAL22169: I think he's seduced by Venus, without being aware of it -- that's why the "recognition" comes at the end of the story.
aggirlj: And that;s what I'm wondering!
AGplusone: Not a "Citizen of the System" eh?
aggirlj: Don't you justlove it, a neophyte.
BPRAL22169: I think he said the story was based on "Man Without a Country," the way Starman Jones was based on a true story.
Dehede011: Or, did he later recognise BP as an inversion of Hale
Dehede011: Starman Jones, that was the first time I recognised Heinlein as a fellow Missourian
aggirlj: Show Me!
BPRAL22169: Oh, here's something OT but interesting. I just did a search through my Chronology and found that Coventry was a variation on Man Without a Country in the notes at UCSC
Dehede011: Yes, but the depiction of the hills
AGplusone: We really don't have much foreknowledge of the young man in Man Without a Country, just some young lieutenant seduced by Arnold the hero ... who shoots his mouth off at the court martial.
Dehede011: Bill, did he recognise Coventry's source before or after he wrote it
AGplusone: Coventry is much closer.
AGplusone: Don Harvey actually thinks that not only 'war is something you study' but that nationalism is the same.
BPRAL22169: These were his notes before he wrote it. That's the second line of the notes.
AGplusone: He thinks he's past that . . . citizen of the system
Dehede011: I was adding that to my knowledge of his method
aggirlj: Good camoflage
TreetopAngelRN2: Don doesn't think he needs to take sides, he is decidedly neutral...until Charlie gets it...
AGplusone: I imagine until the North Koreans came south, young men in 1951 thought the same.
BPRAL22169: You should go to the UCSC for a week or so and go over his working notes for the early stories.
TreetopAngelRN2: wish I could...
aggirlj: I'm on 1-1/2 packs, how ou doin' Elizabethe.
AGplusone: He just a traveller, diverted. Neither parent bothered to tell him they were in it up to their ears.
BPRAL22169: If they had told him, they might be missing their ears.
AGplusone: Is that what we have today? Too many assumptions that by osmosis they've absorbed it.
BPRAL22169: I like the fact they weren't pro-Martian; they were stinking "internationalists."
aggirlj: Good place to hde.
TreetopAngelRN2: not a one for a few weeks now
Dehede011: Sounds like the southern Missouri farmer story during the Civil War
AGplusone: That would be what a lot of communists were calling themselves in 1948 or so.
Reilloc: Stinking internationalists or effete intellectual snobs?
BPRAL22169: No, I think Dr. jefferson was the effete intellectual snob, wasn't he?
AGplusone: Either, or both, or neither. Ever read Pat Frank's Hold Back the Night, LN?
BPRAL22169: I think he says as much of himself at one point.
Reilloc: What about this intellectual aristocracy business anyway?
aggirlj: But thay demeans it doesn't it.
BPRAL22169: A very 19th century idea.
TreetopAngelRN2: Dr. Jefferson made a point of saying that
Reilloc: An action novel intended to forward eventual rule by the intellectual elite.
BPRAL22169: Were you referring to the group of scientists?
AGplusone: Well, that was Koppel's point last night: the 'intellectual aristocracy' of this country currently doesn't expect its sons to enlist do they?
aggirlj: Absolutely toodlyl not.
Reilloc: The intellectuals or the plutocrats?
AGplusone: I'm not sure whether both are the target.
Dehede011: I wonder, is that fact or just perceived wisdom
Dehede011: accepted wisdom
AGplusone: Well, there is the fact that one member of the Congress has a son in the military.
Dehede011: Has anyone seen statistics? I haven't
aggirlj: No, but go with your gut.
Dehede011: But do young rich guys tell Dad they are going as I did and as many others did?
AGplusone: Let's take AFH. John Atkinson's daddy is a retired CWO. Who else do we know that's in.
Dehede011: As in SST
AGplusone: We're taxpayers, been taxpayers for a long time, and proud of it, says Daddy Rico.
Dehede011: Yep, my father was a Carpenter Foreman but he didn't want me enlisting during Korea
aggirlj: I would bail in a nano second.
AGplusone: Daddy Rico was proud of the fact that no one a long time back had ever enlisted.
Reilloc: I was unclear about what started the Venusian revolution.
Musiquelle26: Dad was AF, Granddad was AF, Granduncles in all services...
Reilloc: There was some mention of taxation without representation but no specifics.
AGplusone: I never found out . . . just offstage.
Dehede011: And I am sure that is realistic but not universal
Reilloc: I think the intellectual cabal started it to take over.
AGplusone: Heinlein's chart was the only reason I saw for it. The one that said the colonies would just naturally rebel, by 'n by.
aggirlj: When you're working your @ss off and not gettin' the getlt, well what else.
AGplusone: And they do, don't they?
Dehede011: Oh yes, what was it he said in passing
TreetopAngelRN2: Dad-AF, brother-Marines, sons-Army and Navy, husband-Navy
AGplusone: But are we typical, E?
Dehede011: That it proved that folks would never stand to be ruled from another land?
Reilloc: There was an oblique reference to exporting drugs and minerals from Venus but, again, no details.
TreetopAngelRN2: Probably not!
AGplusone: Wartime service is the most many of us can come up with, and we happened to be readers of Heinlein. Rather self-selected by
age and predisposition or conditioning.
Reilloc: There was, apparently, a small trade in gergarian meat.
BPRAL22169: Sounds like a mercantilist policy. Sounds to me like a close analog of the English Colonies in the 1770s.
AGplusone: I'd think so. What Hancock was really mad about was the taxes.
aggirlj: What about the cannibalism aspect?
Dehede011: Yes, but the Revolution broke up my cousin's smuggling business
BPRAL22169: I'm drawing a blank. What cannibalism aspect?
aggirlj: Dinner with Jefferson.
AGplusone: You ain't never heard of baked Injun' Jane. The baked Gregorian.
Reilloc: That wasn't a person they were eating.
Reilloc: No, Dave.
Reilloc: It wasn't baked monk.
TreetopAngelRN2: but it was perceived as, by Don
AGplusone: sorry, close ....
BPRAL22169: That's "pet" squeamishness -- not cannibalism.
aggirlj: Elizabeth, my, my.\
Reilloc: It's like eating Lassie.
AGplusone: Like selling Willis to the London Zoo.
TreetopAngelRN2: Like frying Smudge up because she's climbing the drapes again!!!
AGplusone: Well, unless we have a trade in Long Pig one of these days . . .
aggirlj: Just a thought,
BPRAL22169: People differ as to how much of it they have.
AGplusone: Or Fried Green Tomatoes.
BPRAL22169: David -- have you read Donald Kingsbury's Courtship Rite? An extremely good book.
AGplusone: No, never.
Reilloc: Isn't there a new Fannie Flagg book out?
BPRAL22169: I recommend it.
Musiquelle26: I can, in foreign lands, eat the meat put before me....but please don't tell me it is Fluffy or Rex
aggirlj: Me three.
AGplusone: Yes. Standing in the Rainbow.
AGplusone: Read it.
Reilloc: ANy good?
AGplusone: FGT was better.
Dehede011: When I was a boy on the farm a lot of farmers would not eat domestic rabbit
Dehede011: Because they are often kept as kids pets
Reilloc: Squirrels are rats with bushy tails.
AGplusone: Naw, it's just chicken.
BPRAL22169: The woman whose ranch I was living on for the last year kept chickens, geese, and ducks and wouldn't hear of eating "family." That included the lizards. She did draw the line at the local rats.
Reilloc: She ate the rats?
Dehede011: If you notice farmers seldom name food animals and almost always name non-food animals
BPRAL22169: The cats were welcome to the rats and field mice, but she became wroth if they ate the lizards.
aggirlj: As she should.
Dehede011: Mom got upset if our dog ate the cats
AGplusone: Bob likes lizard
TreetopAngelRN2: Mom get a hog a year from my uncle and she refuses to pick one out, she just picks it up at the butchers
BPRAL22169: She liked to have lizards doing pushups in the morning.
Musiquelle26: I have no problem with domestic pig, chicken, or rabbit
AGplusone: brings one home ever so often
AGplusone: to share
aggirlj: Wait til you get the snake as a gift.
BPRAL22169: Emmeline Gertrude used to bring field mice in to share.
Dehede011: The only one I don't like is squirrel -- they just aren't good
BPRAL22169: Still alive, of course.
BPRAL22169: Idunno -- squirrel stew can be pretty good.
TreetopAngelRN2: cat is staying in the house...
AGplusone: right, tenderizes them if they're kept alive and terrified
Dehede011: Maybe so
aggirlj: Oh, yes and squiming.
BPRAL22169: And the classic Brunswick Stew is made with squirrel.
Reilloc: Bowling balls and squirrel.
TreetopAngelRN2: FOOD THREAD!!!!!!!!
Dehede011: I took a garter snake to show my wife once
Musiquelle26: Squirrel only makes good stew
Dehede011: I never had it offered except fried.
AGplusone: Makes a good pie, too, Steph.
BPRAL22169: I've seen recipes for fried squirrel, but I've never tasted it any way other than stewed.
Dehede011: But I love rabbit stew
Musiquelle26: Never had pie...usually tossed them in with leftovers of other animals
aggirlj: Told Mamma' kitty to get rid of it when I had to go to work.
BPRAL22169: What about the Harveys as remote ancestors of the Fries?
Musiquelle26: My Glyph would stalk a snake, play with it in her mouth, then go let go where she had found it, relatively unhurt
Dehede011: Hey, have any of you ever had an Elvis sandwich??
AGplusone: That's why Bob stopped sharing. Two summers
ago, I took three birds and one mouse to the trashcan he can't get into in about a week.
TreetopAngelRN2: I could see that, Bill.
Dehede011: Peanut butter on rye, coat both pieces of bread. Slice a banana on top. Put bacon strips on that
Dehede011: unless you are a vegatarian. And then grill the whole works on both sides
AGplusone: Possible: early Fries ... leaving Jefferson to tell the kid and using him as a smuggler of the secret. Worse than what Unca Tom did using Poddy and the sociopath as cover.
Musiquelle26: Sounds like a good sa'm'ich
aggirlj: Oh, Stephanie1
Dehede011: PBS had a special on Sandwiches last night. I tried one tonight
AGplusone: What kind?
Dehede011: Oh, and drizzle some honey on if you want
TreetopAngelRN2: peanut butter, chopped onions, cheese grilled
Musiquelle26: I usually just do PB, Honey, and Banana
BPRAL22169: I see the same "casual" attitude toward childrearing he is critical of in Podkayne of Mars.
aggirlj: Peanut butter, rasphbery jam!!!!!!!
Dehede011: But not nearly as obvious, Bill
AGplusone: Send 'em to boarding school. Aristrocracy, the elite.
Musiquelle26: Casual childrearing comes up often in the books
BPRAL22169: No -- it was central to the book in PoM, not in BP.
TreetopAngelRN2: Yes, Don Harvey didn't have alot of contact with his parents
BPRAL22169: Also, I think the children were younger in PoM
AGplusone: Ever notice how Bill Leamer chooses not to remain on earth, and not to go back ...
Reilloc: Actually, it was integral to BP.
AGplusone: Harvey was a lot older.
AGplusone: About to graduate.
Reilloc: If he hadn't been at that all-male ranch school, he'd never have been in position to have happen what happened.
BPRAL22169: You mean, because Don wouldn't have been on Earth if his parents had not been so casual?
BPRAL22169: So the very least we can say is that it's an important subject fo rhim for a long time.
Reilloc: His parents reminded me of the parents in Have Spacesuit but absent.
AGplusone: Impression I got was ... he wasn't too affected, and you couldn't say he'd been there a very long time. His parents weren't that experienced with the inverse snobbery about the saddles.
TreetopAngelRN2: I understood that Don had spent most of his schol years on Earth, could barely remember Venus and had never been to Mars...
BPRAL22169: I think part of the reason the story works is that he's not too attached to anything at the start. His Bildung is learnign to have loyalty to something and someone.
BPRAL22169: I gather his parent's weren't all that attached to anything, either.
Dehede011: Why did RAH write that so often? That didn't have anything to do with his upbringing did it?
Reilloc: I think it's somewhat significant that he can't do that until someone gets shot right in front of him.
AGplusone: But it's not clear that his parents were gone *all* those years. Could easily have been with him on Earth part of the time.
BPRAL22169: urk. Stray apostrophe there.
AGplusone: He's remote. I agree, LN.
AGplusone: His roommate is about to enlist. He doesn't think much on it.
BPRAL22169: It's a useful story device for his protagonist to coast along until something shocks him out of his rut. It's not like he was -- but it makes a good story of the kind he was telling.
Dehede011: But over and over
Reilloc: I think his personality's ill developed.
TreetopAngelRN2: Maybe, I just got the impression he hadn't seen them for a long time...
AGplusone: But the "birds of the air have nests" title.
AGplusone: He doesn't have anything.
AGplusone: a 'citizen of the system'
BPRAL22169: It's also useful for expository purposes; it gives Heinlein a chance to build in stuff that the prot
agonist doesn't have to notice and interact with. Gives him a chance to hit things a second time, having set them up unobtrusively
AGplusone: stuff you study
Reilloc: At the end, he's...what?
Dehede011: Now, Don Harvey had been raised by his parent for some years hadn't he??
aggirlj: Established on his own. No parents to guide him, making judgementsbased on experience and book learning. Someone had to have been a majorinfludenc.e
AGplusone: closest friend isn't human, it's a horse.
AGplusone: I think earlier, Ron.
Dehede011: Yes, Dave
TreetopAngelRN2: no home to go to, if he had a home on Earth he would have some sort if shallow loyalty
Dehede011: He sounds like an introvert, fictional son of an introvert
Reilloc: What specific skill was mentioned that his parents taught him?
Reilloc: Speaking "true speech"
AGplusone: didn't even know someone he could send his, I'm okay, I'm on Venus, who would forward the mess
age to his parents on Mars.
TreetopAngelRN2: exactly, there was no one for him...
aggirlj: Unbelieveable strength.
TreetopAngelRN2: I think the kid developed that on his own...
Dehede011: Very introverted and self reliant
AGplusone: He's basically a blank slate. Anyone he runs into influences him. He even starts to buddy up with the IBI
aggirlj: Until agent dallies with him.
Dehede011: Well, at first he had no reason not to accept the IBI
Reilloc: You think Jefferson deserved to die?
TreetopAngelRN2: he does tend to seek approval from any adult
BPRAL22169: It sounds like he's a "pleasing type" personality, but it doesn't turn out that way. Not much codependence in him.
Dehede011: That comes later
AGplusone: Hilarious when the con man talks him into paying for the dinner.
AGplusone: With his only dollar.
aggirlj: No talking, left in the lurch.
Dehede011: Hi, Y'all
BPRAL22169: The incident with the Chinese cook killing a burglar and being voted an award actually happened -- to Leslyn's childhood cook in, I think, Taft, California.
AGplusone: Jefferson was an amoral man, I'd think, using a kid to convey the secret. That was apparently, however, nothing more than what his parents set up, however.
TreetopAngelRN2: Don at least learned fast, that folks were out there who would take advant
age of him...
Reilloc: He was corrupt in a lot of other ways.
AGplusone: And Don was seventeen. There were 17-year-olds making the walk back from Chosin that year.
aggirlj: And he adjusted. Quickly, and pesronably.
Reilloc: He was a shameless gregarian eater, a devotee of the Chic
Dehede011: And that is part of what 17 year old boys are about to start learning about the world
AGplusone: The difference being, they raised their right hands first.
BPRAL22169: That's just "city sophisticate."
Dehede011: Not everyone is their friend -- even when those folks are on the same side
AGplusone: I'm not sure I wouldn't have enjoyed that club.
Reilloc: Pardon me while I go chow down on a neighbor's ferret.
AGplusone: Ferret. Um, Good.
BPRAL22169: Or you might have some Strasbourg pate de foie gras...
AGplusone: Gamey, tho ...
aggirlj: Hmmm, better than on my platter.
Reilloc: Boiled weasel.
Reilloc: Nothing like it.
TreetopAngelRN2: Green Chili cooking in the kitchen
AGplusone: Have to hang and season it right, that's all.
AGplusone: pushin' fifteen minutes to go ... we all talked out?
AGplusone: Or any other final point?
Dehede011: Not often
Reilloc: She's your sister.
TreetopAngelRN2: nah...had some...
AGplusone: Hey, it runs in the family.
BPRAL22169: Just a quick orientation question -- what did you conclude BP was useful for teaching from?
AGplusone: Clean mind or a clean body, take your choice.
Dehede011: ?? Bill
AGplusone: I think there's a bit of history.
TreetopAngelRN2: I thought it would be a good tool as a secondary source for teaching the American Revolution to 7th graders...
AGplusone: Common sense. My point about the best laid plans of mice and men ....
BPRAL22169: American Revolution? Colonial
aggirlj: Why not.
AGplusone: that blowing up the station didn't work so good, did it?
AGplusone: Reminded me with a vengence about Bush Sr's plan to foment regime change in Iraq eleven years back.
Reilloc: You guys are serious about this business of using Heinlein to teach values, eh?
TreetopAngelRN2: give a fictional POV.
Reilloc: I don't think you can pull it off.
Reilloc: He's inconsistent within his body of work and dated.
aggirlj: Only because it's here?
AGplusone: More or less ... a good teacher can, I think.
Musiquelle26: That could be said of many authors
AGplusone: There's a certain caution about adults BP teaches.
AGplusone: good authors
BPRAL22169: Heinlein's juveniles do teach values, manifestly . . . but this particular series of run-throughs we're doing is looking at the books as didactic tools.
BPRAL22169: Or so I understood it.
TreetopAngelRN2: what other author would you choose?
Musiquelle26: but I still enjoyed being tossed a novel title to get a parody or exemplar view of the period I was learning
Reilloc: Fiction's fiction.
AGplusone: I noticed how we got into the aero deception issue quickly, particularly what Bohr came up with ...
TreetopAngelRN2: yes, you LN
Musiquelle26: Animal Farm....fiction
Reilloc: Right and I don't think it teaches anything but how clever an author can be perceived to be.
Musiquelle26: but always assigned to study how communism got its big push
AGplusone: Bible parables: fiction
BPRAL22169: Aero deception? You just lost me.
AGplusone: stealth techniques
TreetopAngelRN2: You don't belive we can use fiction to teach values?
Reilloc: I think fiction works to help define parameters.
TreetopAngelRN2: so, analogies don't work?
Musiquelle26: Did you ever read The Jungle?
aggirlj: It can only define reality eventually.
Musiquelle26: I had no interest in learning 20th century American history...til I read that novel
Reilloc: I don't think it's appropriate to take fiction and hold it up as the definition of how people ought to behave, absolutely.
AGplusone: okay, what about the parameter of using a seventeen-year-old to smuggle a secret out ... neither do we, I suspect.
Reilloc: Lots of us have kids and use examples to explain concepts.
BPRAL22169: Funny -- that's Aristotle's moral distinction between history and drama, tht history cna show what happened but drama can show what ought to be.
Reilloc: That's the use of fiction, to me.
Dehede011: They said they had no one else. That is what a nations military does isn't it
Musiquelle26: But people use the bible every day to do just that, even cultures that do perceive it as fiction
Dehede011: It takes young men and women and uses them up
Reilloc: No comment on the use of the bible to instruct in anything useful.
AGplusone: If you were an Iraqui student here, today, and papa Hussain sent you a ticket home, what might you do?
aggirlj: I totally agree Reilloc.
TreetopAngelRN2: That's what we are trying to do, figure out how to use the books as teaching tools for the concepts...
Reilloc: I'm put off by that.
Reilloc: I can see you pointing to books as examples of situations.
AGplusone: Or, if your name was Akiyama, and it was sixty years
ago, and you were at UCLA, what?
Dehede011: I would get out of Dodge
aggirlj: Or Denver.
Reilloc: I'd go see Uncle Fuji, pick up the ring and split for Tokyo.
AGplusone: Some did. Some didn't. Some went to Tule Lake, and some were sent, against their will to Peru.
BPRAL22169: Incidentally, in the closing minutes, has anybody run across any connection between Heinlein and Rex Stout?
AGplusone: Other than the reference in the Mirrors story?
AGplusone: Or in his speech where he mentions Stout?
aggirlj: No? Remind me agan?
BPRAL22169: There are some connections -- Stout ws president of the author's guild when Heinlein joined, and he was a big one-worlder after WWII
Reilloc: No, but Fu Man Chu was in the bank on Venus so there's Sax Romer
BPRAL22169: Thanks, David, I'll have to look those up. I suspect there was a conflict of personal styles between those two.
BPRAL22169: (As well as the fact they moved in very different circles)
AGplusone: He threw Stout up as a good writer of the genre iirc
BPRAL22169: That was the chicago speech in 1947, wasn't it?
AGplusone: one of em
Dehede011: Oh, was there any connection between RAH's Naval service and that town he moved to in the NW??
BPRAL22169: Lex went to Seattle Tacoma several times -- had an annual overhaul in Tacoma IIRC. is that what you're referring to?
AGplusone: Well, 'tis witching time ...
BPRAL22169: I dont recall he ever lived in the northwest.
aggirlj: Yep and I'm hoongry!
Dehede011: Yes, but later RAH and Ginny moved to the NW very briefly
TreetopAngelRN2: Night all...see you briefly on Saturday
AGplusone: Thanks to you all for coming ...
BPRAL22169: Yeah, they were scoping out Sequim in 1965, but it didn't take.
aggirlj: You hung in there lady, see you Satuday?
Reilloc: Night, all.
TreetopAngelRN2: be there with bells on!
AGplusone: Night LN
BPRAL22169: Good night.
Dehede011: Any connection is what I am asking?
aggirlj: Reilloc has left the chat room.
BPRAL22169: Doesn't appear to be.
Dehede011: Night y'all
Dehede011 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: nite Ron
BPRAL22169: They were looking for somewhere at sea level, is all.
Musiquelle26: Bon Soir
Musiquelle26 has left the chat room.
aggirlj: William I knew you would like my post!
TreetopAngelRN2 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: and Steph
AGplusone: closing log ...
BPRAL22169: I laughed and laughed.
BPRAL22169: Have fun.
BPRAL22169 has left the chat room.
aggirlj: Gottq' go now, see ya' later.
aggirlj has left the chat room.
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