Heinlein Readers Group Discussion
Thursday 11/01/2007 9:00 P.M. EST
Heinlein’s Aliens
Here Begin The Postings
From: Tim Morgan
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:48:23 -0000
Subject: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens
HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
[Editor’s Note: Re-scheduled for Nov. 1, 2007]
WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens
The heading for these posts always says “The usual AIM chatroom.” In case you’re wondering what that means, and it’s been holding you back from joining us, you can find all of this information at this location:
https://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html
That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.
For this month’s discussion, we’re leaving our usual format of discussing a specific book and instead we’re looking at a cross-book topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by “aliens”, I mean sentient beings who interact with the humans, not life forms we’d normally classify as animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or least favorites?
And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his alien life forms. Willis and the Star Beast come to mind, for instance. Or a surprise in the other direction, there are the Jocks. Besides making an interesting story, what’s Heinlein trying to say here?
Please join us in pre-discussion on the newsgroup, and in the real- time discussion next week.
Tim Morgan
for The Heinlein Society
From: et…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
Date: 16 Oct 2007 04:21:57 GMT
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens
Tim Morgan (morgan…@gmail.com) writes:
> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
> TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens
> The heading for these posts always says “The usual AIM chatroom.” In
> case you’re wondering what that means, and it’s been holding you back
> from joining us, you can find all of this information at this
> location:
> https://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html
> That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.
> For this month’s discussion, we’re leaving our usual format of
> discussing a specific book and instead we’re looking at a cross-book
> topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by “aliens”, I mean sentient beings
> who interact with the humans, not life forms we’d normally classify as
> animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if
> any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a
> central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division
> isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or
> least favorites?
At least they aren’t like Asimov books that have no aliens.
Surely the lack of aliens is derived from the stories themselves. If the story isn’t at a point in future history where alien life has been reached, one can hardly have aliens. Witness “Door INto Summer”; the lack of aliens fits the story. Even a book like “TIme for the Stars”, the lack of aliens isn’t shocking since even best estimates say life would hardly be common, the book itself even points out that it would be rare to find a planet of the right combination of things to sustain any life.
Some of the stories have the aliens as key components, such as “Red Planet”. The book would be different without Willis. Some stories do seem to have incidental aliens, “Between Planets” being an example, where Sir Isaac’s role could be played by someone else, yet the aliens were needed to show a disparate solar system, yet which is united on some level.
What might be more interesting is the nature of the aliens. They all tend to be “human like” to some extent, though not necessarily in form. Communication is possible because there is common ground. The aliens aren’t really esoteric, such as talking plants or rocks.
And generally the aliens in the stories are friendly. Well there are the Bugs in “Starship Troopers” but you could hardly have a war novel without an enemy. And the whatever in “Have Space Suit” but even then, the tone seemed to be that they weren’t evil but simply couldn’t grasp that humans were anything more than lowly animals.
There doesn’t seem to be much if any “first encounter”. Generally, the aliens are a given, they are part of the landscape. That sets up a different type of story from “land on a planet, meet the aliens and have intercourse”. But then, the books are less about exploring unknown planets than an existing universe.
Which in the end all likely defines things. Writers tend to write similarly, so Hal Clement was terribly interested in creating different types of aliens, sometimes in quite different environment. Others wanted to write about exploring. I’m not sure how one would define Heinlein, but he seemed to be more interested in the science and the people rather than exotic life forms.
Michael
From: “David Wright Sr.”
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:14:52 +0000
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens
> Tim Morgan (morgan…@gmail.com) writes:
>> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
>> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
>> TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens
I received this in response to the general invitation I sent out. (If you wish to have your name added to the Readers Group notification list, email me at maiko…@alltel.net
—– Original Message —–
From: “jrc”
To: “David Wright”
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:04 AM
Subject: Re:
> And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled
> certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his
> alien life forms
Ginny once mentioned to me that the Martians in Red Planet
and Stranger are the same.
Jim Cunningham
David E. Wright Sr.
From: Chris Zakes
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:29:22 -0500
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens
>Tim Morgan (morgan…@gmail.com) writes:
>> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
>> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
>> TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens
>> The heading for these posts always says “The usual AIM chatroom.” In
>> case you’re wondering what that means, and it’s been holding you back
>> from joining us, you can find all of this information at this
>> location:
>> https://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html
>> That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.
>> For this month’s discussion, we’re leaving our usual format of
>> discussing a specific book and instead we’re looking at a cross-book
>> topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by “aliens”, I mean sentient beings
>> who interact with the humans, not life forms we’d normally classify as
>> animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if
>> any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a
>> central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division
>> isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or
>> least favorites?
>At least they aren’t like Asimov books that have no aliens.
>Surely the lack of aliens is derived from the stories themselves.
>If the story isn’t at a point in future history where alien life
>has been reached, one can hardly have aliens. Witness “Door Imto
>Summer”; the lack of aliens fits the story. Even a book like
>”Time for the Stars”, the lack of aliens isn’t shocking since even
>best estimates say life would hardly be common, the book itself
>even points out that it would be rare to find a planet of the
>right combination of things to sustain any life.
A quibble: There are definitely aliens in “Time for the Stars.” Remember the last planet they come to before being retrieved by the new-style interstellar ship–the mostly water world, with the giant snake-like critters who end up killing about half the crew.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
Even a man who is pure in heart
And says his prayers at night
May become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms
And the autumn moon is bright.
From: “Dr. Rufo”
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:07:43 -0800
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens
Tim Morgan wrote:
< snip >
> I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if
> any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a
> central focus of the story. Why do you think that is?
The story may require the aliens and that is when they’re included. e.g. the Martian trees in DOUBLE STAR. The Empire in that book includes both humans and non-humans and part of the story involves assuring equal civil rights for all citizens. An issue that was beginning to warm up in the U.S. at the time of the book’s publication.
By the way, while the Martians in RED PLANET and SiaSL seem to be the same; I’ve always had the notion that the Martians alluded to in PODKAYNE were a re-issue of those in DOUBLE STAR.
> The division
> isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or
> least favorites?Pos
The aliens I like most are the ones I’ve been able to imagine in my mind from the details RAH presents. E.g. Sir Isaac Newton in BETWEEN PLANETS. He’s always seemed to me to be a Heinleinian combination of the dancing hippopotami in Disney’s FANTASIA and every effeminate, upper-class British twit written into a film.
Ditto-ditto the wormfaces in HSS-WT. They are, for me, perfect 1950s Bug-Eyed Monsters from their repulsive physical appearance to the dining on humans for a treat.
> And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled
> certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his
> alien life forms. Willis and the Star Beast come to mind, for
> instance. Or a surprise in the other direction, there are the Jocks.
> Besides making an interesting story, what’s Heinlein trying to say
> here?
I don’t understand what you mean by “surprise entries.” What’s the surprise?
That Willis and Lummie both appear at times to be childish and demanding rather than mature and cooperative?
Are you surprised that in a juvenile story RAH included a juvenile alien?
Haven’t you ever watched Saturday morning television with your kids? Power Rangers in its various iterations has been running or at least 20 years.
From: Tim Morgan
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:34:01 -0700
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens
I have to apologize for missing last Thursday’s appointed time for the readers group meeting. Unfortunately, I had a bad flu and was stuck in bed at the time. I’m back on my feet now, and I’d like to reschedule the meeting for this coming Thursday, November 1st, 6PM Eastern 9PM Pacific time. I’ll try to stay healthy until then!
Tim
Go To Posts
Here begins the Discussion
You have just entered room “heinleinreadersgroup.”
Bookman99R has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Welcome
Bookman99R: hi!
Bookman99R: what’s on the table this time?
DavidWrightSr: Tim was sick with the flue last week and my computer was offline for two days. Supposed to be Aliens in Heinlein.
Bookman99R: bummer
DavidWrightSr: I’ll see if there are others who want in.
Bookman99R: right
Bookman99R: I’ll check with NW
toxdoc1947 has entered the room.
Bookman99R: what’s up, Doc?
toxdoc1947: wow, am I early or late?
Krin135 has entered the room.
Bookman99R: late, but I just got here myself
Krin135: evening all
DavidWrightSr: Just coming up. Haven’t seen Tim yet
Bookman99R: hi, Chuck – long time, no see
Krin135: David, Rusty
Krin135: yeah…it’s been an interesting year or two
rmlwj1 has entered the room.
Bookman99R: how goes the marriage?
rmlwj1: good evening
Krin135: this one is much better than the last one
Bookman99R: hello, RM
Bookman99R: lol
Krin135: hi RM, Tox
Bookman99R: good for you, then
rmlwj1: Thank you, David.
Krin135: danke
Bookman99R: you still in touch with Howard?
toxdoc1947: hi krin
Krin135: Sorry I missed the 100th party in KC
Krin135: My job had just changed from Butler to Salem
Bookman99R: yeah, I missed most of it, myself – wife was ill, mostly
Krin135: intermittantly
Krin135: sorry to hear that
rmlwj1: How was that? I had to work, couldn’t get time off.
Bookman99R: but I did host the picnic I’d been threatening to hold
Krin135: good
Bookman99R: I got a link to some pix, if anyone’s interested
Bookman99R: picnic pix, that is
rmlwj1: sure.
DavidWrightSr: We’re supposed to start at 9:00 P.M. EST, but I haven’t seen our fearless leader yet. I will be AFK for a few minutes, so just be social for a bit.
Krin135: lol…wilco
rmlwj1: k
Krin135: how’s the kids, Rusty?
Bookman99R: hugh57(dot)com
Bookman99R: slash cons
Bookman99R: it won’t let me post the link, for some reason
Bookman99R: slashrustys_bbq
Bookman99R: kids are good – 14 & 8, now
Bookman99R: or go to hugh57dotcom – the link is easy to find
Krin135: yeah…my boys are 13, 16, and 20,…girls are 29, 31 and 34
Krin135: with grands from 6 mos to 14 years
Bookman99R: you’re almost free!
Bookman99R: lol
pakgwei has entered the room.
Krin135: yeah
Krin135: it will be interesting
Bookman99R: Oz, JanE!, & the Silvers made it, along with a few whose names escape me
Bookman99R: and a few lurkers & tag-alongs
morganuci has entered the room.
Bookman99R: hi, pak & morg
pakgwei: hello
morganuci: Hi all!
Krin135: hi Pak, Morg
Bookman99R: tonight’s topic will be “Heinlein’s Aliens”, or something like that
Krin135: for the record, COL Paul Tibbetts died today
rmlwj1: ok
Krin135: Absent Comrades!
rmlwj1: dang.
pakgwei: read that earlier
rmlwj1: Absent comrades!
Bookman99R: absent comrades, indeed
toxdoc1947: Absent comrades!
rmlwj1: I’d suspected sometihng like that had occurred when I caught the tail end of “Enola Gay” on NPR.
Krin135: yeah…and the funny part is to look at the confusion between which bird dropped which bomb
Bookman99R: missed that
Krin135: I’m double checking, but IIRC Bock’s Car was deadlined and the crew was switched to another plane
Krin135: and my late Grandmother may have helped build those planes…something that I just realized
Bookman99R: heh
rmlwj1: funny, kinda.
morganuci: What work did your grandmother do during the war?
rmlwj1: Pop was drafted, told the VP of Transport at the Southern he’d orders to report.
Bookman99R: no telling what my G’parents worked on, back then – but they did work in Detroit during WWII
Krin135: ah…here it is…it was the EG..
rmlwj1: VP told him to come back later that afternoon.
Krin135: the plane was named the EG at the last minute
Krin135: Moms worked at the Martin plant in Omaha…at what is now Offut AFB
Krin135: started out on B-26 Marauders…later worked on the 29s
rmlwj1: Orders from draft board, endorsed in writing by Gen. Grove stating that Mr. Jester was assigned to present duties at SouRwy for “duration of the war or five years, whichever is greater.”
rmlwj1: Pop was one of less than half a dozen folks at SouRwy who knew exactly what was moving into Oak Ridge by rail.
Bookman99R: did you find the pictures, Chuck?
Krin135: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enola_Gay
Krin135: haven’t gotten to that one yet, Rusty
Bookman99R: ok
Bookman99R: still scratching my head as to why that link was “forbidden”
Krin135: working on it now
Krin135: nice gig…and clean link
Bookman99R: ok
Bookman99R: thanks
Krin135: have you gotten any fall color up there?
Krin135: the ozarks are rather dull this year
Bookman99R: yeah, some
Bookman99R: likewise here, for the most part
morganuci: We have lots here, but this is my first fall here, so I don’t know how it compares to previous years (Seattle area)
Bookman99R: back in a bit
Krin135: k
rmlwj1: Late starting here (Great Valley in VA)
Krin135: waiting is
morganuci: Shall we start?
DavidWrightSr: Fire When Ready!
rmlwj1: sure
Krin135: air mattress
morganuci: Does anyone have any particular book or alien they’d like to talk about first?
DavidWrightSr: One of my favorites is Sir Isaac from Between Planets.
DavidWrightSr: and the rest of his clan.
rmlwj1: I agree, David.
Krin135: I’m feeling a bit rusty…my library has been packed for much of the last year
DavidWrightSr: Of course, he was one of the first that I ever encountered back in those ancient days.
rmlwj1: I can’t recall if I read Between Planets or Have Spacesuit first.
Krin135: beyond Martians, of which there were three types (Red Planet, Between Planets, and SIASL)
DavidWrightSr: I think that BP was my first, but Starman Jones was a close contender. It had some interesting aliens.
morganuci: Do you see the Red Planet Martians as different from those in Stranger?
rmlwj1: yes, it did, David.
Krin135: I’m not sure…my memory of the two books was that the Earth Human time line was different in both of them
toxdoc1947: much more hands-off
Krin135: getting a bit more color here so that I can figure out who’s writting what
Krin135: in any case, were the Venusians the same in BP and Space Cadet?
morganuci: Red Planet was written in 1949, which was about the same time when RAH started working on Stranger. He clearly recycled at least some of the “features” of the Martians from one to the other.
Krin135: right…the ‘bounders’…had forgotten that they did resemble the nymphs
pakgwei: have to run
pakgwei has left the room.
morganuci: I’m thinking of the adults, mainly. Don’t they sit around thinking a lot? Admittedly, they take action by the end of Red Planet, while in Stranger
morganuci: they’d probably take 500 years to make a decision 🙂
DavidWrightSr: In any case, were the Venusians the same in BP and Space Cadet?: No The aliens in Space Cadet and those in Logic of Empire were very similar, though. Also there were other Martians in Double Star different from the RP SIASL and BP
morganuci: What are the Martians in BP like? I’ve forgotten…
DavidWrightSr: Thin with pseudo-wings is all I remember. The ones in DS were like tree trunks.
rmlwj1: I can recall the ones in DS, but not BP.
morganuci: I think they’re pretty minor in BP. I guess that brings up something I asked in the meeting announcement:
morganuci: Sometimes, the aliens are just background, sometimes they’re a big part of the story. Often the most central to the story are those that are
morganuci: the “surprise” sentient beings, like the Star Beast. I don’t mean “surprise” in that an adult reader can’t predict where the story is going, but that
morganuci: the characters in the book are surprised :-).
Krin135: agreed
Bookman99R: can’t quibble
rmlwj1: agree, Morganuci.
Krin135: and how RAH managed to get “Raising ‘John Thomas’s'” past the censors
Krin135: was quite remarkable
Bookman99R: Simon, I can’t read your text, as it stands – dark on a dark background, is what I’m seeing
morganuci: Does everyone know the reference? Agree about the text—I can read it only by highlighting it.
DavidWrightSr: For a Freudian, Dogleash was quite inept, 😎
Bookman99R: heh, yep
Bookman99R: I’m in the “it was deliberate” camp, on that point
Krin135: I’m not getting a dark backround on any of the text I’m receiving
rmlwj1: nor am I.
Bookman99R: might have something to do with different versions, i suppose
morganuci: I think so.
Bookman99R: nor am I.
Krin135: could be
rmlwj1: I’m on Trillian, FWIW.
Bookman99R: that might be part of it
Bookman99R: part of it
Bookman99R: lol
Bookman99R: I got infected!
morganuci: Yeah, what happened?
Bookman99R: as for how it got past the censors, I suspect that they aren’t as widely-read as they thought themselves to be
Bookman99R: I cut & pasted some of Simon’s text, and it re-set my background
Krin135: or at least weren’t particular Anglophiles
rmlwj1: I agree, Rusty.
Bookman99R: oh, Motherthing sends her greetings
Krin135: ah…Salutations and Felicitations returned to Herself
Bookman99R: she’s been busting out some Physics homework, so she’s too tired to come out & play
rmlwj1: 🙂
Krin135: her own homework or fot the teen?
Bookman99R: her’s
Krin135: ah…with or without calc?
Krin135: calculus, not calculator
Bookman99R: she’s had 2 terms of calc, so far
Krin135: ok..
Krin135: tease her about sheets of butcher paper and a slipstick then
Bookman99R: lol
Bookman99R: ok
rmlwj1: snicker
morganuci: OK, we’ve all said we liked this or that alien character. What makes you “like” an alien—what makes them interesting to us?
Krin135: for me, the way that RAH used them to hold up a mjrror
Krin135: mirror
Bookman99R: that’s easy – similarities & differences
Bookman99R: just as with human interactions
Krin135: to show us that we are more alike
rmlwj1: Good point, Krin.
Krin135: than we want to acknowlege
Bookman99R: hmmm
morganuci: You don’t think so?
rmlwj1: sure
Bookman99R: are the Jockairan “gods” alone among Heinlein’s not-human-at-all aliens
Bookman99R: ?
rmlwj1: delete that “sure” wrong window. Sorry.
Krin135: who was more alien? Homo superior of Friday
morganuci: Well, what about the Martians in Stranger? They’re pretty different, and godlike, compared to humans.
Krin135: or VMS?
Krin135: godlike, yes
Bookman99R: the Martians of SiaSL weren’t ‘on screen’ much
Krin135: but like the Olympians, having their share of blind spots
Bookman99R: but it’s a thought
morganuci: In Star Trek, there’s some kind of alien on every planet. That’s sort of what makes the episode “happen”—they land, interact, move on.
morganuci: But in Time Enough For Love, for instance, the universe seems to consist of many earthlike planets, all populated by humans, with the only alien-occupied planets being the ones that were in Methuselah’s Children.
morganuci: I think Heinlein wrote TEfL this way because he wanted to focus on human emotions, human interactions, and not be distracted. In contrast, in Stranger, clearly the purpose is to have a foil against which to measure humanity.
Krin135: true
morganuci: And even there, he used a human, rather than a human-like alien. I guess that was partly necessary since you needed to have the “alien” experience sex.
rmlwj1: makes sense, Morganuci.
morganuci: TEFL doesn’t just pretend that the Jock gods weren’t around. I think Laz says something about going back there? Or does go back?
Krin135: one point that is often underrated is the breeding capacity of Genus Homo
Bookman99R: Long went back & killed them
Bookman99R: no reason for as to why was ever really given, IIRC
Krin135: given half a chance and a decent star drive
morganuci: He didn’t like that they subjegated (sp?) the Jocks and would have done the same to the humans, and the effect they had on Slayton Ford.
Krin135: ok..now you’ve got my interest piqued
Krin135: I’m going to have to get a new copy of TEfL now
morganuci: I see it as a bit of Heinlein’s fear of communism, or dictatorships. Laz’s reaction is like that to the slugs in The Puppetmasters, which was probably an allegory about communism.
Bookman99R: given that the galaxy is big, it takes a fairly powerful motivation to go back & commit genocide
Krin135: dagnab it, David
Krin135: someone needs to convince the Board and the Estate Trustees to cut a deal with Baen
morganuci: Yeah, I always thought it was a bit off-hand. Has anyone read the Ender series by Orson Scott Card?
Krin135: to get the rest of the books on Webwrigths
Krin135: most of it, Morgan
Bookman99R: yeah, although the later books get preachier than RAH, IMO
morganuci: Agreed. I was thinking of the twist that Ender is at first a hero for killing all the buggers, then later vilified for having committed genocide.
Krin135: and while we are seeing some benefits from kids playing computer games
Krin135: there still needs to be Cap Troopers and ‘boots on the ground’
Krin135: concur, Morgan
Bookman99R: true
rmlwj1: Might e-mail Toni Weisskopf.
Krin135: which was part of the parable of the Skinnies in SST
rmlwj1: She’s a bit much on her plate now, her husband died a few days ago, so a response may take a bit.
Krin135: because we were able to put boots on the ground of the Skinny worlds
Krin135: oh, damn…what happened?
Bookman99R: well, the Skinnies also served to show that the ST gov’t also employed diplomacy
Krin135: yes, Rusty
Bookman99R: or more to the point, that said diplomacy was yoked to military action
Krin135: and that there should always be a stick to go with the carrot
rmlwj1: Hank went into cardiac failure, had a CABG, post op infections and, IMO, renal failure.
Krin135: like the Great White Fleet
Bookman99R: sorry to hear that – hope she’s OK
Krin135: crap…I’ve seen that before…was he a diabetic as well?
rmlwj1: Not to my knowledge.
Krin135: k…that’s the most common situation to combine heart failure with kidney loss
rmlwj1: He looked a tad pale at Liberty in July, but he was fair complected, so I didn’t pay as much attention to it as I probably should have.
Bookman99R: and you’re right about “carrot & stick”, Chuck
Bookman99R: not to mention the fact that not all cultures respond well to “we come in peace”
Krin135: in any case, as an XGI, I always understood that part of my job was to make sure that we could cash the checks that the dipple corps and pols were continuing to write
Bookman99R: indeed
Bookman99R: alas that _they_ don’t keep that in mind, all too often
Krin135: IIRC, in most non cosmopolitian cultures, the word for ‘stranger’ is usually the opposite of ‘friend’…
Bookman99R: yep
Krin135: taken to the extreme, the tribal/clan cultures from the Balkans to the ‘Stans…
Bookman99R: even the Soviet culture didn’t do very well with the concept of “equals”, as I understand it
Krin135: ‘me against my brother’
Krin135: my brother and I against our cousin
Bookman99R: politically & diplomatically, at any rate
Krin135: the three of us against the world
Krin135: interestingly enough, both in the Islamic and Russian cultures
Krin135: consider *any* land once occupied by the culture
Bookman99R: cross-pollination, perhaps?
Krin135: forever a part of that culture
Bookman99R: yeah, there’s that
rmlwj1: heh. Good luck on getting East Germany back.
Bookman99R: and “what’s mine, is _mine_. What’s yours is negotiable”
Krin135: was thinking more about a reserected Caliphate trying to retake Seville
Krin135: or a resurgent Moscow trying for Alaska
Bookman99R:
morganuci: Were the centar-like creatures in Starman Jones “aliens” or just animals?
rmlwj1: Somehow I don’t think Putin’s crowd is quite that stupid.
Bookman99R: well, they were able to communicate & cooperate
Krin135: and the vision of all of the Balkanoid cults and cultures (except maybe the Albanians and Bosnians)
Krin135: rising against the Turks…
Bookman99R: effectivly co-ordinated the equivalent of combined-arms military action
Bookman99R: that, Chuck, would likely get ugly fast
Krin135: mmm…Morgan, porpoise pods and to a lesser extent wolf packs do much the same
morganuci: Indeed. I think in the end, what we learn about them isn’t enough to know for sure. I was just soliciting opinions
Bookman99R: yes, but those are all same-species actions
Krin135: point taken, Rusty
Bookman99R: the centaurs operated across species boundaries
Krin135: in any case, I must bow out
Krin135: been a long day
rmlwj1: night, sleep well.
Krin135: and I must be up again in the am
morganuci: Goodnight!
Bookman99R: g’night
Krin135: Vaya Con, all
Krin135 has left the room.
morganuci: But were the centaurs just using stuff in the environment? A chimp can do that, and birds have been seen to fashion and use simple tools.
morganuci: Are the centaurs meant to be “in betweens” like a chimp?
Bookman99R: but as for the ‘taurs, the question revolves back to “what constitutes ‘human'”?
morganuci: Indeed! I was hoping someone would bring that up. Ideas/opinions?
Bookman99R: how many animals domesticate other animals?
Bookman99R: or ‘enslave’, if you like the term better
rmlwj1: I think RAH wrote that with the ‘taurs ans the area dominant race being “human equivalent” for that planet.
Bookman99R: oh, and thanks for fixing the text, Simon
Bookman99R: yeah, but it’s another example of truly ‘alien’ aliens
rmlwj1: yeah, it is.
morganuci: Yeah, my personal guess is that they are at least somewhat intelligent. Or yes, they might be just so different in thinking patterns that we can’t relate to them much.
Bookman99R: off-hand, i favor the latter
morganuci: OK, here’s one that’s so far out in left field, you may want to declare it a foul ball: Jonathan Hoag. What about the super aliens in there?
Bookman99R: and culturally homogenous enough that they didn’t develop a technical culture
rmlwj1: Intelligent, yes, but I agree on the different thinking pattern.
morganuci: Humans didn’t have much of a technical culture for millenia.
Bookman99R: I dunno if Hoag fits – more of “humans of a different design”, in that case
Bookman99R: save for Hoag, who was a god/angel type
Bookman99R: but back at you: the Angels in Job – aliens?
morganuci: whoa, hadn’t thought of that!
Bookman99R: they are certainly not humans, and they only have some motivations in common with us
Bookman99R: presuming that in the context of this chat, aliens are “non-human, intelligent beings”, rather than exotic animals
morganuci: I was myself interested in the sentient aliens because they provide a contrast to humans, and often in SF they are a central pillar of the story, while that isn’t usually true in Heinlein.
Bookman99R: we really don’t know much about the angels – they are rather disdainful of humans, are subject to likes & dislikes, son’t seem to have gender, are jealous of status, and some like to eat
morganuci: We aren’t necessarily limited to the sentient ones. And yes, we’ve been (mis) using “alien” to mean that.
Bookman99R: yeah, but there’s not much to discuss about alien cattle
morganuci: There’s always the stubor 🙂
Bookman99R: the critter that LL mis-reported, in a blurb in TEFL might be interesting, but there’s little to go on
Bookman99R: well, sure – that was the point!
morganuci: What’s that?
Bookman99R: in the ‘notebooks’ section, some critter that broadcasts euphoria when petted
Bookman99R: Long closes the paragraph by saying thaat they aren’t where he said they were
rmlwj1: cats do that, at times.
morganuci: Flat cats?
Bookman99R: heh
DavidWrightSr: Knaffn?
rmlwj1: heh
Bookman99R: something like that
morganuci: brb
Bookman99R: ok
Bookman99R: me 2
Bookman99R: back
morganuci: me too
Bookman99R: have the water dragons in TFTS been mentioned?
morganuci: not yet—go ahead
rmlwj1: Don’t think so.
Bookman99R: they seemed to possess some level of inteligence, at least on the level of the ‘taurs
Bookman99R: (although i spell in english better then they do!)
starfall2 has entered the room.
Bookman99R: I found fresh blood!
Bookman99R: lol
starfall2: hi
Bookman99R: welcome, Star
morganuci: welcome
rmlwj1: evening
toxdoc1947: hey star
Bookman99R: last alien brought up was the water-dragons from “Time for the Stars”, but there doesn’t seem to be anywhere to go with them
starfall2: well, i’ve got no input on them. i don’t think i’ve gotten to that one yet
Bookman99R: lucky you
Bookman99R: what’s your favorite alien?
Bookman99R: come to that, have we ticked off on RAH’s ‘bad guy aliens’?
morganuci: not yet. That was another contrast I wanted to get to.
Bookman99R: the wormfaces, the beasts, the centaurs, the ‘dragons’
toxdoc1947: black-hats
Bookman99R: but he didn’t seem to much go in for black-hat aliens, much
morganuci: “humans are the most dangerous creature”
Bookman99R: yeah, there’s that
Bookman99R: although it would be hard to say who’d win, human vs wormface
toxdoc1947: weren’t the villians black-hats in TNOTB?
Bookman99R: yeah, I termed them “beasts”, but same thing
Bookman99R: absent the Mother Thing’s intervention WRT wormfaces, anyway
morganuci: What I meant was, that was his usual theme, but sometimes he varied from it by having a wormface type around. yeah, they were pretty bad compared to the technology of the humans
morganuci: I think if they’d gone to war, the humans would have lost the first battles, but dug in, invented new stuff, and won in the end.
Bookman99R: but pseudo-peer aliens that are intratably enemies of H. Sap. are thin on the ground
Bookman99R: in a RAH book, you bet
Bookman99R: never hurts to have the Author as an ally
Bookman99R: 😉
Bookman99R: people in the USA don’t really respect a good Tragedy any more, though
morganuci: How would you contrast Heinlein’s use of aliens with those of other SF writers of his time, and/or of current times?
Bookman99R: and i don’t just mean Poddy, either
Bookman99R: RAH attempted, for the most part successfully, to have aliens that had alien cultures & mindsets
Bookman99R: previous art tended to either use ’em as BEMs, or stand-ins for other human groups
Bookman99R: allegory
Bookman99R: at least, that’s my take on it – I didn’t grow up reading golden-age stuff, only got dribs & drabs
Bookman99R: heh – possibly the best exaple was the strato-people in “Goldfish Bowl”
Bookman99R: utterly alien, and yet, not ‘gods’, either
morganuci: Yeah, I like them!
Bookman99R: well, _you_are welcome to inhabit one of their bowls… 😉
Bookman99R: but recall that Campbell didn’t want to publish that one
morganuci: why not?
Bookman99R: I’d say that was telling, WRT the take on aliens of the time
Bookman99R: it’s discussed in “Grumbles”, but
Bookman99R: the short of it was that JWC thought the story was too “heavy”, as opposed to the light, escapist stuff that he considered SF to be at the time
morganuci: I see. I’d forgotten about that.
Bookman99R: may I ask you age, Morgan?
morganuci: 48
Bookman99R: ok, a bit older than I am (41)
morganuci: But not so old that I grew up reading in the golden age ;-). I was reading RAH in the 70s initially.
Bookman99R: do you see the other aliens of the times being much different from as I described them?
Bookman99R: yeah, me too
morganuci: No, I agree with you.
Bookman99R: RAH really pushed that envelope, IMO
Bookman99R: and even today, a lot of authors write aliens in the mode of – call ’em Star Trek Aliens
rmlwj1: yeah, that seems to be the current mode.
Bookman99R: STAs being humans in funky clothes, with a paint job & a few prosthetics
morganuci: Yeah. Of course, in the 60s that’s all the could afford to do!
Bookman99R: I’m thinking ST:TOS for that descriptive, BTW
Bookman99R: yeah, but it wasn’t just a matter of cost – the bulk of Roddenberry’s aliens were simple allegory, mostly the rest were Bug-Eyed Monsters
morganuci: Agreed!
Bookman99R: even Card’s aliens, in the Ender books, were eventually watered down into pseudo-humans
morganuci: Yes. Unfortunately, if the aliens are too alien, you can’t relate to them, and they’re usually going to appear just as a threat that we should blow up.
Bookman99R: hmmm… Niven’s Kzin usually made the cut, when it came to avoiding allegory
morganuci: Tell us about them.
Bookman99R: the Sentient cats?
Bookman99R: you know them, right?
Bookman99R: Intelligent, aggressive & warlike, with social charachteristic that could be taken as descended from cat-type animals
Bookman99R: gad, this is starting to feel like an interview! lol
morganuci: No, I haven’t read about them. What book(s) are they in?
Bookman99R: well, the Man-Kzin wars, to start with
Bookman99R: don’t recall any other titles, it’s been a long time
morganuci: OK, thanks. Are there other aspects of the aliens topic that we haven’t covered? I’m running out of leading questions.
Bookman99R: lol
morganuci: Hey, I’m serious!
Bookman99R: well, RAH did kinda dabble in “alien by choice”, in the homo superiors in Friday
Bookman99R: parallels include Pournelle’s “Saurons”, and Stirling’s “Draka”
morganuci: There’s some aspect of that in the real world. Some groups want to separate themselves from society for political reasons mainly.
Bookman99R: althought they were rather better-developed
Bookman99R: call it socio-political, i think
Bookman99R: in all 3 cases mentioned, the basis seems to be a feeling of/belief in their own superiority
morganuci: That’s pretty similar, then.
Bookman99R: and common to such groups, I think, is that they have a need to prove it, in one form or fashion
morganuci: It’s also a feeling that plays well to the typical SF readership.
Bookman99R: hmmm…
Bookman99R: perhpas
morganuci: Aren’t we superior to most humans :-)?
Bookman99R: lol
morganuci: And the typical nerdy SF reader also feels alienated (pun intended) from society etc.
Bookman99R: well, when i look around the average ‘con, I tend to think “what an amazing array of talent that is mostly going to waste!”
morganuci: True!
Bookman99R: perhaps, but then again, there’s the “As on a Darkling Plain” factor
Bookman99R: not many people really feel all that accepted & confident
Bookman99R: but mundanes are better at putting on the facade than fen
Bookman99R: or that last could just be the sour grapes of an old SF nerd… 😉
morganuci: lol
rmlwj1: lol
morganuci: So are there other Heinlein aliens people want to talk about, or aspects of them, etc.?
Bookman99R: I will note that there are human aliens-by-choice that don’t have much to prove, beyond proving how weird they are/can be
Bookman99R: goths, punks, & the like
Bookman99R: humm
morganuci: I agree with that.
Bookman99R: not sure there’s a parallel to that in RAH’s works
Bookman99R: the super-intelligent cannbles mentioned in TEFL?
Bookman99R: cannibals
Bookman99R: odd that the various martians got so little table-time, isn’t it?
morganuci: Maybe so. Or just the homo superiors that we started this with.
Bookman99R: especially the DS Martians – one of his better-fleshed cultures
rmlwj1: yes it was.
Bookman99R: granted that RAH didn’t dabble much, that way – he wrote books about humans, for humans, mostly
morganuci: That’s a good point. RAH tends to show alien HUMAN cultures rather than alien cultures. Maybe this comes from his round the world tour?
Bookman99R: somewhat, i think
Bookman99R: certainly the first trip changed his perspective on such things
Bookman99R: especially the stop at that remote island
morganuci: Yeah, I’m thinking he was trying to show that humans have a very wide range
Bookman99R: trying to talk to the locals, and finding that there really wasn’t much basis for communication – he’d met some “aliens”
Bookman99R: yep
Bookman99R: but on the plus side, he didn’t really devolve into allegory, much
Bookman99R: satire & comedy, certainly
Bookman99R: examination of the human condition, certainly – an outside perspective really helps with that
Bookman99R: Question:
Bookman99R: I’ve noticed that when I attend chats, i tend to be one of the talkers. Am I adding antything, or am I drowning out some better voices?
Bookman99R: these chats, that is
rmlwj1: I don’t think so.
starfall2: well, you’re not drowning me out.
morganuci: I’m getting a lot out of it myself. But I’d love to hear from the others also.
DavidWrightSr: Well, I would normally say a lot more, but it’s been a few hard days and I am pretty sapped out.
Bookman99R: I grok that, David
Bookman99R: BTDT
starfall2: i’d normally at least say a little, but i haven’t had much time for reading, and it’s been a rough few days for me, as well
Bookman99R: I’m just checking that I’m not hogging the mike, so to speak
Bookman99R: I been known to go on, a bit 🙂
morganuci: It’s on topic, so no one can complain
Bookman99R: lol
Bookman99R: well, to quote one of Stirling’s books “we’re here to talk, so let’s talk”…
Bookman99R: lol
rmlwj1: yep, and I seem to be of similar thoughts, so you’ve expressed mine well also.
Bookman99R: quite a compliment, sir
Bookman99R: thank you
Bookman99R: but unless someone can push another button, or drop in another nickle, I’m fresh out of new ideas
Bookman99R: flat cats, cabbages, & water-seekers don’t really stretch the topic
Bookman99R: RAH did mention on human culture that would stand in for an alien one, though
Bookman99R: in TR, the one where successful lying, scheming & murder were considered admirable traits
toxdoc1947: thoughts about “the circle” in TCWWTW? Some of them were at least a little alien iirc
Bookman99R: anyone recall the name of the people?
morganuci: I’m stumped
Bookman99R: well, there was the ERB Martian there
Bookman99R: Sambo?
toxdoc1947: yep, and the grey lensman
toxdoc1947: iirc
DavidWrightSr: The Circle of Ouroboros?
Bookman99R: he would do, especially for ‘alien by choice’
Bookman99R: here’s something:
Bookman99R: is there an important difference between sufficiently alien humans, versus non-human aliens?
Bookman99R: and if so, how/what?
Bookman99R: that _is_ a theme explored by RAH
morganuci: I suppose not.
rmlwj1: thought processes, I’d think.
Bookman99R: case in point, the Shasta story
starfall2: i’d say perhaps the idea that the alien humans would be seen as having chosen to be different (regardless of whether or not they consciously made that decision), while the non-human aliens are automatically non-human
rmlwj1: possibly value systems, which are integral to thought processes.
Bookman99R: good point, Star
morganuci: I think in a thousand years, you’d get quite a lot of divergence in societies. Eventually, evolutionary divergence would also happen.
Bookman99R: crainly value systems, in either case
Bookman99R: if values/motivations are sufficiently alien, whether in numan or non-human, then the culture is effectivly alien
morganuci: I think so
Bookman99R: body shape is of less importance
Bookman99R: did RAH ever touch an complementary aliens, the way that Alan Dean Foster did with the Thranx?
morganuci: ‘splain
Bookman99R: ADF wrote the Thranks (intelligent insectoids) as being the complement of humanity
Bookman99R: the two races shored up each other’s weaknesses, complememnted each other’s strenghts
morganuci: I can’t immediately think of any RAH story where the humans worked with another race. And I think that’s a big contrast to many other writers.
rmlwj1: folks, I’ve got to head to bed, thank you all for a pleasant evenning.
Bookman99R: g’night, Simon
morganuci: Thanks for joining us! Goodnight.
Bookman99R: thanks for dropping by
rmlwj1: It’s been quite a while, I enjoyed myself.
Bookman99R: for those interested in the Thranx, “Nor Crystal Tears” is a good place to start
starfall2: goodnight
Bookman99R: hmmm…
NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.
Bookman99R: back to DS, the pilot’s relationship with the Martians, might be an indicator
Bookman99R: heya, Nuke!
Bookman99R: brb
NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening
starfall2: hi!
morganuci: Hey!
NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry for the late arrival.
morganuci: I know
Bookman’s not here right now, but my thought is that the Martian and Venerian aliens mostly live apart from the humans, and they mostly ignore each other, rather than work together.
Bookman99R: back
starfall2: wb
NuclearWasteUSN: It seemed to me that the venerians were a “young” race and the Martians were elders barely noticing the humans in the middle
Bookman99R: good to see you here, bud – these nice folks been letting me run my mouth for _far_ too long 😉
NuclearWasteUSN: I could be conflating books though
NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Is that a nice way of saying I am running mine?
morganuci: No! Go right ahead
Bookman99R: nope
Bookman99R: saying that I could use someone to work against
Bookman99R: hard to have a discussion where everyone agrees, no?
NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, which side of this would you like to take?
NuclearWasteUSN: I came in in the middle
Bookman99R: heh
Bookman99R: not really on a side
Bookman99R: you know the topic, right?
NuclearWasteUSN: Yes
Bookman99R: pick an alien, any alien. Potificate
morganuci: pretty much!
NuclearWasteUSN: Although I did not post on it in AFH as I was shocked that people seemed to think that Heinlein wrote benevolent aliens
Bookman99R: I’m about tapped out on thigs to say, but you & I don’t see things the same way
Bookman99R: benevolent? Well, not exactly
morganuci: Well, excluding the mean ones 🙂
toxdoc1947: lol
toxdoc1947: am getting punchy – beddie bye time for me
Bookman99R: alines with parallel, but not identical veiws/goals is more like it
Bookman99R: g’night, Doc
NuclearWasteUSN: The Heinlein Martians of the VMS universe were not.
Bookman99R: nope – they had an agenda all their own
morganuci: I wouldn’t say they’re benevolent. I’d say they’re self-serving, just like the humans.
toxdoc1947 has left the room.
morganuci: Goodnight, Doc!
Bookman99R: but it was mostly internalized, so didn’t much affect humanity
starfall2: i should probably go as well. puppy needs a walk, and i’ve got some more papers to grade for tomorrow
starfall2: goodnight!
Bookman99R: ok
morganuci: Goodnight!
NuclearWasteUSN: Perhaps, if you mean that being racially aware and working for the greatest good of the race is “self serving”
Bookman99R: g’night
starfall2 has left the room.
morganuci: I mean, their interest isn’t the benefit of the humans.
NuclearWasteUSN: Certainly they were the most alien race written at that point
morganuci: But it may be that their interests happen to coincide with that.
Bookman99R: the VMS marians? hardly
Bookman99R: interests barely touched, to my way of thinking
morganuci: No, I meant the supposed benevolent aliens in RAH.
NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t know. The beauty of the destruction of the 5th planet always shook me.
Bookman99R: quite an example of different values & outlook
morganuci: I think they see beauty in whatever they grok is the right thing to do. Convenient, no?
Bookman99R: to those martinas, the inevitable correct result would always be “beautiful”, not so?
NuclearWasteUSN: Very convenient, and coldly logical
Bookman99R: I suppose to that set, even the destruction of their own race would be beautiful, if they grokked it as necessary
NuclearWasteUSN: Not in anger, nor with resignation. They enjoyed doing what they did.
Bookman99R: heh “brightly, brightly, and with beauty”
NuclearWasteUSN: Didn’t you get that as the inevitable end to allowing Mike to continue to grok?
morganuci: Absolutely. Do they ever have to turn one of themselves 90 degrees from everything?
NuclearWasteUSN: That just sends them to the beginning.
morganuci: Whoa, you mean that they have planted the seeds of their own destruction?
Bookman99R: prolly not – not wasting the meat is fairly core to their beliefs
NuclearWasteUSN: Didn’t you get that from when Mike talked to Jill not long after he was downloaded?
morganuci: True, but if one of them were so “evil” (in our terms) to need that, would they want to grok him?
NuclearWasteUSN: ISTM that they would
Bookman99R: ah, but their destruction, or merely being swept onto an existential “reservation”, as it were?
morganuci: Can you destroy the old ones?
NuclearWasteUSN: Their promotion en mass to Old Ones
NuclearWasteUSN: I am only an egg Marganuci
NuclearWasteUSN: -a+o
morganuci: So it’s another the-humans-come-from-behind-to-win-out-in-the-end Heinlein story
Bookman99R: only in its potential
NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, not certain it is so simple as that
Bookman99R: likewise with the slugs in TPM
NuclearWasteUSN: The Old Ones can still cause the core of the earth to disapear
morganuci: It was never clear to me how the slugs built spaceships, or if they’d have any other weapons.
Bookman99R: they enslaved other intelligent beings, of course
Bookman99R: maybe in a situation like that in “Alien”
morganuci: I assumed the same thing. So we wouldn’t know what they might be capable of.
morganuci: And did they transmit back to Titan the experiences of those on earth? If so, even if they didn’t before, they’d know our technologies.
morganuci: (then)
Bookman99R: well, in general form, sure
Bookman99R: but the devil’s in the details
morganuci: Yeah, again there’s not enough detail in the book to know for sure, so we’re left to speculate.
NuclearWasteUSN: Once it is time to railroad…
Bookman99R: thinking on that one, how important is the Titan base, for that?
morganuci: Titan always seemed an unlikely home planet to me. Maybe it was a base for attack, like Pluto for the wormfaces?
Bookman99R: that would be my thought
Bookman99R: probably in the same mode as “Footfall” used
Bookman99R: a one-way trip, conquer or die
morganuci: So they could be like a virus, spread all over the galaxy, thus very hard to wipe out.
NuclearWasteUSN: Did Sam say something about extrasolar origins?
Bookman99R: no follow-on wave neede or planned for
NuclearWasteUSN: When they tortured the slug on him for info?
Bookman99R: virus might be the best way to put it
morganuci: I don’t remember anything but Titan?
Bookman99R: ISTR that extrasolar was listed as a possibility, but not definitively
NuclearWasteUSN: I am not certain on it, just a tickle of a memory
morganuci: It’s a bit Borg-like also, picking up different races’ technologies along with the races themselves.
Bookman99R: but then, the “restored” version might nave more clues
NuclearWasteUSN: I will see which one is currently on the shelf upstair5s.
morganuci: True, it’s quite a bit longer.
NuclearWasteUSN: Assuming the boiy has not stolen them all.
Bookman99R: I haven’t read the new/old version, really need to track one down
NuclearWasteUSN: Anyone want a redheaded book theif, cheap?
Bookman99R: lol
morganuci: Many people like it a lot better than the originally-published version.
Bookman99R: give him time – my elser one has learned to forage for herself
Bookman99R: I know I liked the restored SISL better
morganuci: Me too. And Red Planet?
NuclearWasteUSN: I like both versions of both.
NuclearWasteUSN: I have not got the new Red Planet
Bookman99R: I read the excerpts of RP in Grumbles
Bookman99R: was there more than that?
NuclearWasteUSN: Of course she has, Rusty, she probably read everything you had, and stole all the good ones already. Self defense and a healthy appetite drove her to larger feeding grounds
morganuci: Jane Davitt wrote an article in The Heinlein Journal comparing the two versions. I think you can find it online…let me look
NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, it is there.
Bookman99R: no, she’s only brushed over lightly, on our library – her tastes are developing differently
morganuci: https://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/redplanetbluepencil.html
NuclearWasteUSN: One of the trolls posted it a couple of weeks back
Bookman99R: I’ll have to read it later
morganuci: We’re about at the end of our published time. Do we want to keep going? I have a few more minutes available, but not many.
Bookman99R: up to NW, I think
Bookman99R: comments on the Jocko ‘gods’, Nuke?
NuclearWasteUSN: I need sleep. I am sorry to have arrived late but Crab Legs and my wife in lipstick lured me away
Bookman99R: lol
Bookman99R: such vices!
Bookman99R: lol
morganuci: lol!!
Bookman99R: I’m about tapped out, for originating, anyway
morganuci: OK, how about suggestions for a topic for next month?
Bookman99R: are we doing again on Saturday?
NuclearWasteUSN: Always seemed to me the Joks Gods were merely a sufficiently advanced race
NuclearWasteUSN: Saturday is a HOLIDAY
Bookman99R: sure, advanced aliens
Bookman99R: hmmm
Bookman99R: RAH’s impact on the SF genre, perhaps?
NuclearWasteUSN: I am in MN, and that is the first weekend of November…..
morganuci: When we re-activated these talks, it seemed that almost no one ever showed up on Saturdays, so we went to the Thursday only format.
Bookman99R: oh, yes – the sacred Opening Day
NuclearWasteUSN: Wow, thought you had become a complete heathen down there in the South
morganuci: That’s a big topic—it should bring ’em in!
Bookman99R: have we done the Women of RAH recently?
NuclearWasteUSN: *leer*
morganuci: I know I have
NuclearWasteUSN: No, but I’d like to!
NuclearWasteUSN: *rimshot*
Bookman99R: yeah, and a fiery one, especially if the emphasis is on feminism
morganuci: Shall we go with that then? Both are good topics.
Bookman99R: if we tossed a line out in alt.callahans, it could be a virtual free-for-all
Bookman99R: works for me
NuclearWasteUSN: Well, I am out of here, must grab some wood and build a fire. Good night all, let me know what you decide.
Bookman99R: g”night, amigo
NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.
morganuci: I vote for women first, impact second.
morganuci: David: Got the log (if you’re there)?
Bookman99R: maybe toss out Women as a prmary topic, and call for sub-topics?
DavidWrightSr: I’ve got it.
Bookman99R: if we’re doing women, keep genre impacet on the back burner
morganuci: OK then, we’re agreed. Thanks everyone, and goodnight all!
Bookman99R: feminism, the relality of such, etc.
Bookman99R: good night!
morganuci has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Nite All!
Bookman99R has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 12:03 A.M. 11/02/07
End of Discussion
