Heinlein Readers Group Discussion
Thursday 01/10/2008 9:00 P.M. EST
Heinlein’s Women
Here begins the Discussion
morganuci: To begin, there’s Gilliam Boardman, “a little girl who was about to go charging out and maybe get herself killed …all guts and gallantry but too ignorant to be allowed to monkey was sucha buzz saw; …”
morganuci: Which character said that, David?
AGplusone: A question you posed was “is there any development” of female characters, and I wondered about the three fronts in particular … that ties into the ‘still serves coffee’ thing Not very new wits posted. Jubal said that.
morganuci: Well, Jubal’s the voice of God, so it must be correct 🙂
AGplusone: To Ben shortly after he gets freed from wherever the SS had him, and is drying out.
AGplusone: Explaining why Jubal got involved.
AGplusone: So it’s an excuse to justify Jubal’s doing what he did.
morganuci: Well, I think he’s right that she’s ignorant of politics. She says so herself earlier on.
AGplusone: and maybe untrue
morganuci: You don’t think she’d get herself into the same trouble Ben was in, or worse?
morganuci: Ignorant != stupid, of course. (!= means does not equal in programmer speak)
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AGplusone: I think it’s likely she would, but whether it’s Jubal’s real reason is another question.
Bookman99R: well, she wasn’t equipped to play 007
NuclearWasteUSN has entered the chat room.
Bookman99R: hi, milady
Bookman99R: hi, Nuke
AGplusone: Jubal may just be looking for an excuse to tilt windmills, i.e., bored with sitting around the pool in the Pocomos.
NuclearWasteUSN: Call me that again and I will not be pleased
Motherthing2002: hello there, honey
Bookman99R: lol
AGplusone: Jim works.
morganuci: OK, we’re talking about the women, not Jubal’s motivations (unless they’re women). I think Jubal did need some action to get his blood circulating again.
Bookman99R: anyway, the current one is Gillian Boardman
Motherthing2002: what men have any motivation other than women?
Bookman99R: gay ones?
morganuci: Power?
Motherthing2002: poor fellas
NuclearWasteUSN: Thank you MT I was afraid to point out the obvious
Motherthing2002: with power comes women
AGplusone: Even if you’re too old to have the “gallant reflex” as Jubal thinks he is?
Motherthing2002: yep
Motherthing2002: with money comes women
Major oz: Jubal may have been somewhat infatuated by a woman who was niave.
Bookman99R: some women do hear the call to Power, and same with men
AGplusone: So sophisticated about medical care–what nurse isn’t–but idealistic about life.
Motherthing2002: I can see that, Jill was niave but his secretaries were decidedly worldly
Bookman99R: well, RAH was fond of casting his charachters in classic roles, now & then
Major oz: Indeed — so he gave Gill a lot of attention. Especially to her …..ahem….. outlook(s)
AGplusone: But … and they still served Jubal and guests coffee. Why is that?
NuclearWasteUSN: How clueless could she really have been? Dating a nationally syndicated writer….
Major oz: Thass what they were hired for.
AGplusone: floor supervisor
Bookman99R: among others, Jim
Motherthing2002: she did seem to expect ‘deus ex machina’ quite a lot
Major oz: They were his three moms
Bookman99R: “Her hobby was men…”
Major oz: ……or daughters
Motherthing2002: men can be a very limited hobby…
Motherthing2002: just like women are a limited motivation
Major oz: Oh, my dear; you need to get out more\
AGplusone: Newitz would probably say “limiting” …
Motherthing2002: I agree, David
Major oz: Rusty……….get her out there
Bookman99R:in this case, I think it’s safe to say that Ben was not the only man that she dated
AGplusone: [I think she looks cute in her three-piece suits. I had one like she wears when I was about thirty.]
Bookman99R: out where?
Major oz: Q: are you two multiplexing on one line?
Motherthing2002: but she did tend to treat all men as one of three types: daddy, savior, or lover
Bookman99R: yup
NuclearWasteUSN: DOn’t forget patient
Major oz): ………there
Motherthing2002: but patients aren’t *men*, they’re patients
Bookman99R: got a networking thingy, now
Major oz: ah, so
AGplusone: It’s a world, as Heinlein often pointed out, of short-haired women and long-haired men.
Motherthing2002: good grief! Am I the ONLY female here????
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Bookman99R: ATM, yes
NuclearWasteUSN: Millie is reading over my shoulder
Major oz: But does Gill “mature” as the story develops, or does she just follow those she respects/loves without understanding.
aggirlj: howdy
Major oz: ?
AGplusone: Naw, Jane showed up in the nick of time.
Bookman99R: ok, now 2
NuclearWasteUSN: Want her to call you on the phone so you do not feel lonely?
Motherthing2002: hi Jane
Motherthing2002: me?
aggirlj: Hi, was working on THS stuff
NuclearWasteUSN: Hello
morganuci: A likely story
Major oz: Jane, cash my check so I can balance my books.
Bookman99R: we’re on Gillian, Jane
Motherthing2002: I can’t type and talk on the phone at the same time
aggirlj: can someone send me what has gone before?
Motherthing2002: besides, I think PeeWee has it…
Bookman99R: I think Jill does mature, although it’s subtle
AGplusone: Well, there’s the opening up of her sexuality in the scene in Vegas when Mike lets her mind-meld with her male audience … that could be maturing, although for a woman whose hobby is men, I sometimes wonder.
aggirlj: [Oz, Davey is the one to pummel on that one]
Motherthing2002: I think that was less maturation and more epiphany
morganuci: Not all characters need to mature. I don’t think we should judge one as bad (or whatever) just because she doesn’t.
Bookman99R: you might be right about ‘epiphany’
AGplusone: There’s a lot epiphany in SiaSL. Mike liking the way the cobras think, it’s reminds him of home and Martians, and enjoying the cat’s mind.
Motherthing2002: I don’t think Jill was a bad one at all
Bookman99R: I read the blog of a gal who took heavy doeses of testosterone, to get an idea of what a man’s sex drive was like
Major oz: It doesn’t seem to me that she ever becomes her “own person”. She is always (figuratively) looking up to Mike, Ben, or Jubal whenever she does anything, as if she is asking: “Is this OK?”
Bookman99R: a point there, Oz
aggirlj: brb, gots to get a drink
AGplusone: Well, about the time of the cruxafiction scenes she does seem, along with Dawn, to have matured.
Motherthing2002: some people require that kind of support, doesn’t make them bad or anything
AGplusone: wish I could spell
Bookman99R: OTOH, she became essentially C-High Priestess to a god on earth
Major oz: Not bad, just never independent.
AGplusone: god who’s leaving shortly
Major oz: ?
aggirlj: b
AGplusone: Rather like Simon called Peter
Bookman99R: but in the same sense, Ben loses his ndependence
Motherthing2002: High Priestess doesn’t have to be an independent entity
AGplusone: About to have to stop denying she knows the man
AGplusone: I think there’s some substantial change in her self-assurance by that time.
Major oz: I don’t think anyone HAS to be such and such. Just saying that she stays in her niche (rut) all through the book.
Bookman99R: as a matter of fact, up to the “crucifixion” scene, the only independent ones are Jubal & Mike, the way I see it
AGplusone: Maybe she’s intended to be a baseline.
Bookman99R: possibly
Motherthing2002: But that run can be nice and warm and cozy and all manner of interesting things can float by….
Major oz: The three fronts are independent to a fault.
Bookman99R: she’;s certainly cast as the “Innocent”
Bookman99R: much more so than Mike
Major oz: Memory fades…….were the Fronts in the nest?
Motherthing2002: I would say Dawn moreso than Jill
NuclearWasteUSN: Written in the late 50s and ealy in 60, isn’t a truly independent woman a bit much to expect in any event?
AGplusone: She teaches him how to laugh but he teaches her Martian
Major oz: Not in a RAH book
Motherthing2002: I would think so
aggirlj: Bettter believe there were independent women then, they just hid it.
morganuci: Yes, the fronts were “first called”. They got Martian training catch-as-catch-can, while still working at Jubal’s.
NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t know, Major, seems to me that she is par for the course to that date
AGplusone: The three fronts are in the nest, but not always physically present until Jubal is brought in. Somebody stays home to take care of the old man.
Bookman99R: OTOH, President Joe’s wife, was she independent?
Motherthing2002: more of a “power behind the throne” and that can be a very dependent position
Major oz: In a brainless sort of rich-bitch way
morganuci: So what’s the problem with getting coffee? Other women in the nest do it too (Ruth, for instance). But, Tony is the main cook, and Mike “proudly burned toast” at one time.
AGplusone: “Agnes” Douglas? Alice Douglas was a hired outside contractor … sent to be a goad for someone’s purpose … whomever was in charge.
Bookman99R: ultimately so, as was revealed in the end – on that count, even Mike was on a mission
aggirlj: RAH was not exposed to the Genteel Southern Belle in his life or if he was then he KNEW
AGplusone: Always wondered what it was that Digby and the rest were doing up there …
Major oz: The nest had classes of folks, but it was not coincident with sex. It was more a “rank” thing.
Bookman99R: with grokking, went rank, though
Major oz: ….perZackly….
AGplusone: A lot like Foster’s power elite described earlier.
Major oz: So the non-grokers “got the coffee”
Bookman99R: true, but Foster’s purposes were different
AGplusone: Yeah, and enjoyed the loose sex while they studied Martian learning how to grok.
Bookman99R: he went for Power, and the trappings thereof
AGplusone: Were they?
Major oz: …….sounds good to me
AGplusone: Howso?
Bookman99R: Foster was assassinated, IIRC
Motherthing2002: by Digby
Major oz: Wasn’t that Digby
Bookman99R: Mike sacrificed himself
AGplusone: Mike supposedly is setting up an organization to carry on after he ‘dies for our sins’
Major oz: ………sorry — disragard
AGplusone: That was the role that Jill and Dawn were setting up for.
AGplusone: Jubal is just the Evangelist
Bookman99R: dunno about that
AGplusone: Jill and Dawn are Peter and Paul
Major oz: Interesting.. Mike is to JC as Jubal is to Paul
Bookman99R: wasn’t Jubal more of the “John the Baptist”?
NuclearWasteUSN: I think I see Oz’s idea
Bookman99R: although he wasn’t “preparing the way”
Major oz: And a few hunderd years later, Dawn, Jill and the others would have been labeled prostitutes.
AGplusone: No, I don’t think so. I think Jubal is Matthew/Mark/Luke and maybe John the weird.
NuclearWasteUSN: scales falling from Jubal’s eyes after the crucifixion and all
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Major oz: Naw, David, thass Ben’s job
aggirlj: nevermind
AGplusone: Caxton is maybe the publisher, like the printer Caxton in the 15th Century, who published Mallory et al.
AGplusone: Jubal will start by planting some ghost written columns in Caxton’s syndicated column.
Major oz: I think a novel about speculating on the “church” as it went on through the centuries would give a great opportunity for fun and games.
AGplusone:
Bookman99R: at a guess, Caxton’s the Propagandist, whether in his own name or unnder a pseudonym
AGplusone: Had to be a reason why Heinlein gave him that name. Caxton is too unusual to be a coincidence.
Bookman99R (6:50:17 PM): possibly
Bookman99R (6:50:35 PM): but this has drifted, hasn’t it?
NuclearWasteUSN (6:50:43 PM): I have company, I must run, sorry guys
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Motherthing2002 (6:50:49 PM): and ‘ben’ being ‘son of’?
Major oz (6:50:55 PM): And then there would have been Duke’s appocalypse
AGplusone (6:51:04 PM): yep, or at least that’s my theory
Major oz (6:51:48 PM): c ya, jim
morganuci (6:51:49 PM): For those who missed discussion about it, the recent LA Times article about Heinlein said
AGplusone (6:52:19 PM): By labeled prostitutes, do you mean holy temple prostitutes, Oz?
Bookman99R (6:52:50 PM): I thik he meant re-cast as prostitutes, as per Mary Magdelene
morganuci (6:52:58 PM): Even “Stranger,” with its countercultural following and endless debates about alternative sexuality — it’s one of several of his books to dramatize group marriages —
Major oz (6:53:09 PM): No, I mean in the sense that Nicea labeled Mary Magdeline a prostitute because woman COULD NOT have a place in the church
morganuci (6:53:24 PM): enrages feminists these days. “It’s like the sexist model of hippie life,” said Newitz. ” ‘We’re all liberated, but the women still get the coffee.’ ”
Bookman99R (6:53:29 PM): well, not a place of Authority
AGplusone (6:53:49 PM): Ah, written out of the hierarchy per the split between the Orthodox and the Gnostics.
Major oz (6:54:01 PM): ja, wohl
aggirlj (6:54:02 PM): And I lean towards the hypothesis of Mary have a lot more power than they give her credit for
aggirlj (6:54:11 PM): having
Motherthing2002 (6:54:18 PM): what if I *want* to get the coffee because the way you make it is gross?
AGplusone (6:54:24 PM): Or Dan Simmons’ Grail.
Bookman99R (6:54:25 PM): History channel’s done a couple on that, Jane
aggirlj (6:54:42 PM): Along with the DaVinci Code
AGplusone (6:54:45 PM): Not Simmons, whatzisname.
Bookman99R (6:54:47 PM): non-relevant, MT
Motherthing2002 (6:54:54 PM): So did Natl geo channel
Motherthing2002 (6:55:07 PM): Brown?
Bookman99R (6:55:19 PM): yeah, the “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” thing
Major oz (6:55:21 PM): MT, those of us in the inside would understand that. Outsiders, including the yahoo from LAT haven’t the ability
Motherthing2002 (6:55:28 PM): what about that is non-relevant
AGplusone (6:55:33 PM): Yes, Brown if that’s the name. The one who wrote DaVinci Code.
Bookman99R (6:55:56 PM): because the LA Times bit was discussing ‘roles’
Bookman99R (6:56:19 PM): it was a NOW-leaning article
Motherthing2002 (6:56:32 PM): but I don’t have to not do something just because it previously would have been my ‘role’
Major oz (6:56:42 PM): Then there is the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, some of the Coptic texts, etc all pointing to MM as more than the RCC is / was willing to admit.
AGplusone (6:56:51 PM): I think not-so Newitz is hung up in the 1960-70s thing over getting coffee is demeaning.
Bookman99R (6:57:08 PM): When Mike transitioned from child to adult, all four women sub-ordinated themselves to him
aggirlj (6:57:23 PM): Ya know, it’s not really THAT important to me, getting coffee
Major oz (6:57:26 PM): AS a man or as a demi-god?
Motherthing2002 (6:57:28 PM): Remember, when they ousted MM, the men in the church were starting to be afraid of women with power
AGplusone (6:57:36 PM): But so did Larry and Duke, and Jubal would if Mike would let him.
Bookman99R (6:57:49 PM): yup
AGplusone (6:58:02 PM): Instead Mike keeps reminding Jubal he’s the Father
Motherthing2002 (6:58:15 PM): It came too close to the pagan Mother Goddess for comfort
Bookman99R (6:58:27 PM): but in the sort of “logic” the writer used, the behavior of men can’t be a factor in the discussion
Major oz (6:58:36 PM): And the way it is written, “father” sounds like a cathedral organ.
AGplusone (6:59:09 PM): As in Father why cannot this cup be taken from me?
Major oz (6:59:18 PM): And, MT, it was soon after that that the church began hunting witches.
Major oz (6:59:31 PM): indeed, David
Motherthing2002 (6:59:42 PM): yep, gotta keep those EEEEvil women down, donchano
Major oz (6:59:58 PM): barefoot and PG
aggirlj (7:00:01 PM): Be afraid, be very afraid.
Major oz (7:00:05 PM): like here in the Ozarks
AGplusone (7:00:23 PM): So Newitz’s critique makes no sense in context of what is set up in story. Dawn and Jill are left in charge.
Motherthing2002 (7:00:24 PM): pregnancy is a very vulnerable time in a woman’s life
AGplusone (7:00:36 PM): Jubal is just the Press Secretary.
Motherthing2002 (7:00:39 PM): yep
Major oz (7:00:52 PM): …which is why H makes such a point of saying so in many of his works.
AGplusone (7:01:50 PM): And Abigail Zenobia and the other kid, the boy, are the future left behind by Mike.
morganuci (7:02:17 PM): What are the meanings of Abigail and Zenobia?
AGplusone (7:02:21 PM): Abigail Zenobia is an interesting name. Alfa Omega …
Major oz (7:02:22 PM): Back to Jill. I don’t think I would have given her much time at a cocktail party. Not disagreeable, just nothing attractive.
Motherthing2002 (7:02:34 PM): my mom once asked what they used to do for women like me(dangerous labor and delivery), I told her “They died!”
AGplusone (7:02:46 PM): Abigail can mean a maid, but Zenobia is the Queen of Palmyra.
Bookman99R (7:03:02 PM): Maiden Queen?
Motherthing2002 (7:03:08 PM): Yes, and A and Z complete the cycle
AGplusone (7:03:11 PM): Who challenged Rome and supported the Gnostics against the Orthodox.
AGplusone (7:03:21 PM): No, she was the widow who took over.
AGplusone (7:04:21 PM): The Romans finally captured her, and she died “accidently” on her way to Rome.
Bookman99R (7:04:46 PM): I meant in the sense of Abigail Zenobia being the “Virgin Mother”, the Beared of the Son, sorta thing
AGplusone (7:04:47 PM): And the Orthodox took over the church.
AGplusone (7:05:39 PM): Jill is steadfast, Oz. I might find that attractive.
Major oz (7:06:02 PM): But steadfast takes time to recognize.
Major oz (7:06:16 PM): I wouldn’t hang around long enought to see it.
AGplusone (7:06:25 PM): Jubal figured it out quickly, but Jubal was perceptive.
Bookman99R (7:06:49 PM): well, Jill wasn’t the kind of stupid who preezes in a crisis, at any rate
aggirlj (7:06:51 PM): There are many colors to steadfast. sometimes misinterpreted in a negative sense
Bookman99R (7:07:19 PM): “freezes”
Major oz (7:07:45 PM): Now Patty would have interested me from the get-go. Mayhap because my mentor was very much like her.
morganuci (7:08:03 PM): Tatoos?
Major oz (7:08:07 PM): Nay
AGplusone (7:08:08 PM): Jubal was drawn to strong steady women, frex Anne, who otherwise strikes me as cold.
Bookman99R (7:08:09 PM): flexible
Bookman99R (7:08:27 PM): accepting of people as they are, without judgement
AGplusone (7:08:44 PM): Note Anne is modeled on the head secretary that Erle Stanley Gardner married once his first wife died.
Major oz (7:09:02 PM): My mentor was about 18 yrs older than me. A cantankerous, obese, brilliant, horny old woman.
AGplusone (7:09:10 PM): And then, there’s Heinlein and Ginny…. maybe a same sort of relationship.
aggirlj (7:09:19 PM): 😀
Motherthing2002 (7:09:43 PM): a girl after my own heart, Oz
AGplusone (7:09:45 PM): Bertha Cool and Donald Lam.
Bookman99R (7:09:54 PM): well, I dunno Patty was ‘cantankerour’
Major oz (7:10:25 PM): She kicked my butt, and drove me like a mule, convincing me to do things academically I had no clue I could do.
AGplusone (7:10:26 PM): (the Cool and Lam pair are ESG’s second most famous set of characters).
aggirlj (7:10:39 PM): So how old were you? Old women are relaive
aggirlj (7:10:43 PM): relative
Major oz (7:11:44 PM): I was 20 and she was indeterminate………late 30’s or so. My great close friend till she died in ’99
Bookman99R (7:12:01 PM): PeeWee couldn’t make it
aggirlj (7:12:05 PM): Really ancient
Bookman99R (7:12:09 PM): so I’m sending her off to bed
Bookman99R (7:12:26 PM): I dunno
AGplusone (7:12:32 PM): Does everyone know that the Jubal household in the Pocomos was modeled deliberately by Heinlein on ESG’s household in Temecula, California, from which he wrote most of his stories?
Motherthing2002 (7:12:38 PM): I must really be decrepit to those 20-somethings I go to class with
Bookman99R (7:12:46 PM): I had a ‘fling’ with a woman in her 40s when i was in my early 20s
Motherthing2002 (7:12:55 PM): I didn’t know that
aggirlj (7:13:01 PM): You were blessed
morganuci (7:13:07 PM): I thought it was Palm Springs?
Bookman99R (7:13:27 PM): do I need to write my autobiography, m’dear?
Bookman99R (7:13:28 PM): lol
Major oz (7:13:28 PM): She was physically repugnant, but I loved her familialy as no one else.
Motherthing2002 (7:13:35 PM): I had to marry a man 13 years younger than the first one to find one mature enough for me
AGplusone (7:13:40 PM): Gardner had a group of secretaries who rotated and who typed up his stories. Temecula is close to Palm Springs.
Bookman99R (7:13:47 PM): flatterer
aggirlj (7:14:04 PM): Young are maleable
Motherthing2002 (7:14:14 PM): :-*
AGplusone (7:14:21 PM): And with whom he lived around a pool, etc. The Morango Indians (the ones who have the casinos) have the estate now.
Major oz (7:14:30 PM): …get a room………..
Bookman99R (7:14:39 PM): you were luckier than I, Oz – mine fell apart, although not in a disasterous fashion
Motherthing2002 (7:14:45 PM): we already did
Major oz (7:15:07 PM): Never physical, but always spiritual.
morganuci (7:15:08 PM): OK, that’s Temecula then.
Bookman99R (7:15:12 PM): although you probably had a higher-quality one to start with
Major oz (7:15:29 PM): My wife couldn’t stand her, as she saw right through my wife.
Bookman99R (7:15:36 PM): heh
Major oz (7:15:40 PM): …..took me 24 years
Bookman99R (7:16:21 PM): takes a long time to see things we don’t want to see
Major oz (7:16:33 PM): drink…………brb
Motherthing2002 (7:17:25 PM): uh oh, we’re going into reminisce mode! Is SIaSL the only topic book or are we looking at other female characters?
morganuci (7:17:45 PM): Others too. If we’re ready, let’s move to another book/character.
AGplusone (7:17:49 PM): [MT: there’s a PBS series called California’s Gold in which the fellow who does the thing goes to the estate in Temecula and interviews Gardner’s one surviving secretary about it. You can order the episode from PBS.]
aggirlj (7:17:53 PM): God question, I’m curious too.
Bookman99R (7:18:02 PM): anyhoo, I think with SIASL, the problem curent Feminists have, as that the visible Authority Figures were all male
aggirlj (7:18:04 PM): Good
Motherthing2002 (7:18:25 PM): Thanks David, I’ll take look
morganuci (7:18:30 PM): Well, I haven’t heard of feminists complaining that Jesus was a man. But maybe they have?
AGplusone (7:18:54 PM): Huell Howser is the narrator. He’s been doing it about 20 years or so now.
Bookman99R (7:19:19 PM): I suspect that some do, but no experience with it – they probably bail to some neo-pagan group, so they can worship a Goddess
morganuci (7:19:25 PM): I’ve seen CA Gold, but not that episode, unless I didn’t realize what it was. I’ll look for it. Thx.
aggirlj (7:19:28 PM): There are some that think God is/should be a woman.
aggirlj (7:19:56 PM): With a fabulous sense of humor.
morganuci (7:20:14 PM): Moses, Krisna, Buddah, Mohammed, Jesus, Abraham—all the biggies were men, at least until relatively recently.
Bookman99R (7:20:17 PM): well, life’s a joke, anyway 😉
AGplusone (7:20:27 PM): [The Morangos seem disposed to preserve the estate as a museum.]
Bookman99R (7:20:35 PM): a practical joke, and a dirty one, at that
aggirlj (7:21:15 PM): agreed
Bookman99R (7:21:21 PM): but I second the call to move texts
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Bookman99R (7:21:31 PM): hummm
Motherthing2002 (7:21:36 PM): there was a joke a few years(decades) ago, A man wanted to come back and describe God, so he pulled a “Flatliners”. When he was revived he said “God is black, and boy is she p!ssed!”
Major oz (7:21:46 PM): The FSM is both sexes, isn’t he/she, Rusty?
aggirlj (7:22:05 PM): lol
AGplusone (7:22:07 PM): WE could take about authority figure Hartley Baldwin in Friday ….
Bookman99R (7:22:10 PM): what books place women in equal/superior roles with men
AGplusone (7:22:15 PM): after a five minute break maybe.
aggirlj (7:22:22 PM): k
morganuci (7:22:47 PM): OK, back at 7:28.
Bookman99R (7:22:51 PM): FSM is non-gender-specific, but the generic male terminaology is used to refer to Him
Major oz (7:23:03 PM): hokay
Bookman99R (7:23:06 PM): OTOH, FSM _does_ have “balls”
Bookman99R (7:23:07 PM): lol
Major oz (7:24:06 PM): I am getting a lot of mileage out of my ID t-shirt. The one made for me at the Centennial Conf.
AGplusone (7:24:09 PM): Well, MT, there is the female black president written by Heinlein (modeled after Uhura) in the end story in Expanded Universe.
Bookman99R (7:24:38 PM): whether they be testes or ovaries is one of the Great Mysteries, and as such is not to be examined
Motherthing2002 (7:24:39 PM): I liked that reference!
Bookman99R (7:24:59 PM): yep, that was a good one
Motherthing2002 (7:25:23 PM): I was a Trekkie long before I knew about RAH
Bookman99R (7:25:58 PM): OTOH, they sent Uhura up pretty good in “Galaxy Quest”
AGplusone (7:26:06 PM): “Over the Rainbow” which begins at page 456 in the hardbound.
Motherthing2002 (7:26:22 PM): “Dammit, I only have one job on this ship…”
Bookman99R (7:26:28 PM): yup
Motherthing2002 (7:27:05 PM): Sigourney Weaver was a good choice for that one, as well
Bookman99R (7:27:12 PM): Spider made the comment that they took the Token Femal, and the Token Black, and made her a switchboard operator
Motherthing2002 (7:27:40 PM): yes, but she was on the bridge, in the chain of command
Bookman99R (7:27:42 PM): so for ’60s gender roles, RAH is hardly alone
Bookman99R (7:27:50 PM): true
morganuci (7:28:00 PM): And Kirk still had a female to get him coffee
aggirlj (7:28:23 PM): Oh, Geeze, he had Majel Roddenberry to nurse him to health.
morganuci (7:28:24 PM): Not to mention that it’s a decade past when the bulk of Stranger was written
Bookman99R (7:28:35 PM): a lot of what criticisms are made against RAH blatantly indulge in “presentism”
Motherthing2002 (7:28:38 PM): “oh cabin boy, oh cabin boy…”
Bookman99R (7:29:00 PM): where is that plucky little nipper?
Motherthing2002 (7:29:11 PM): of course they do, they wouldn’t have much to say if they weren’t using ‘presentism’…
AGplusone (7:29:15 PM): The cabin boy is hiding in the barrel of apples listening to my namesake plot the mutiny.
Bookman99R (7:29:27 PM): lol
Major oz (7:29:31 PM): And SW’s costume getting inch-by-inch eaten away in the final scene. Great sarcasm.
Bookman99R (7:30:17 PM): So, what about “Let there be Light”?
Bookman99R (7:30:27 PM): brb
morganuci (7:30:39 PM): Sure, ask a question and then leave!
Motherthing2002 (7:30:59 PM): “potty emergency! Potty emergency!
Motherthing2002 (7:31:13 PM): aka Wakko Warner
morganuci (7:31:19 PM): I was thinking about Delilah and the Space Rigger.
Motherthing2002 (7:31:48 PM): I did like Brooksie
Bookman99R (7:32:10 PM): yeah
morganuci (7:32:20 PM): Which of us wrote the Wikipedia article about it :-)? “is arguably one of the best feminist works of fiction ever written by a male author”
Major oz (7:32:38 PM): ?
Bookman99R (7:32:39 PM): she wasn’t in command, but she stood her ground, in the face of fairly blatant sexism, didn’t she?
aggirlj (7:32:53 PM): Yeah, which one Tim?
Motherthing2002 (7:33:07 PM): and without becoming a ‘screaming meemee’ about it
AGplusone (7:33:11 PM): Funny thing: M.L. Lord claims she loved the juveniles, and took her use for initials from them. Yet, there’s on initialled names in the juveniles. Instead, it’s Let There Be Light and Delilah and the Space Rigger, both adultstories
AGplusone (7:33:43 PM): in which initials are used, and stories written in the 193–40s, when women did have to use initials.
AGplusone (7:34:00 PM): “on” = “no”
morganuci (7:34:24 PM): Well, it wasn’t me! But I have to say, *1949*.
Bookman99R (7:34:26 PM): minor slip-up on her part?
Motherthing2002 (7:34:42 PM): TMI: I can say that RAH had a big effect on my sexuality even before I knew what boys were really for
AGplusone (7:35:04 PM): No, I think Lord and Newitz are really from an alternate history and reading different stories.
morganuci (7:35:16 PM):!
Bookman99R (7:35:19 PM): lol
Motherthing2002 (7:35:19 PM): could that have been part of my ‘feminist liberation?
Major oz (7:35:23 PM): “…really for” Now who’s sexist? 🙂
Bookman99R (7:35:45 PM): well, not “sexyist”, but pretty sexy
Bookman99R (7:35:47 PM): 😉
Motherthing2002 (7:35:48 PM): come on! back then they were walking testosterone factories
Major oz (7:36:09 PM): who?
Bookman99R (7:36:12 PM): but what effect, MT?
Motherthing2002 (7:36:20 PM): BOYS
Motherthing2002 (7:36:35 PM): You really want specifics public?
Major oz (7:36:36 PM): OHHHHH, I see………..:-)
aggirlj (7:36:39 PM): Well now there’s a qualifier
Bookman99R (7:36:42 PM): what, he taught you what boys were for?
Bookman99R (7:36:53 PM):
Motherthing2002 (7:36:54 PM): nope, how to deal with them
Bookman99R (7:37:00 PM): although it’s probably too late
Major oz (7:37:01 PM): good idea, R
Motherthing2002 (7:37:35 PM): essentially I realized that I had to use my brain first before I used my body
Bookman99R (7:37:41 PM): yeah, i know what you did to all the 4-legged boys in this house
aggirlj (7:37:53 PM): ?
Motherthing2002 (7:37:59 PM): poor guys, and now they love me…
Bookman99R (7:38:00 PM): no wonder I sleep lightly
Bookman99R (7:38:11 PM): cats, Jane
aggirlj (7:38:18 PM): okay
aggirlj (7:38:30 PM): I could see three
Motherthing2002 (7:38:51 PM): I’m willing to be more specific if you guys want to change the slant of this chat
Major oz (7:38:55 PM): I am slowly, reluctantly, and quite disbelievingly, moving to the point where comparing strong, independent, self-sufficient, and worth-a-shit women to men in the canon is disturbing.
Bookman99R (7:39:19 PM): how so, Oz?
Bookman99R (7:40:14 PM): you clearly have something, but I’m missing it
Major oz (7:40:21 PM): Friday is strong, but not the rest. Poddy is a dip-shit. Deeja toris is Scarlet O’Hara. Even Hilda is a crone.
Major oz (7:40:44 PM): I have trouble finding a role model in the fems
aggirlj (7:40:47 PM): Now, now, crones aren’t a bad thing.
Motherthing2002 (7:40:58 PM): but every character has to have that Greek “fatal flaw”
Major oz (7:41:08 PM): Manny’s #1 wife is a close as I can get. Maybe Hazel Stone.
AGplusone (7:41:15 PM): Maybe Heinlein was tongue in cheeking Ginny. Treat me like that again, and I’ll put that aspect of your character in my next novel.
Motherthing2002 (7:41:15 PM): if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be interesting
Major oz (7:41:42 PM): Yabbut, they all have multiple flaws. It’s as if they have only one redeeming characteristic.
Bookman99R (7:41:47 PM): OTOH, do the men have said “fatal flaw”?
Bookman99R (7:42:02 PM): ML Martin?
Major oz (7:42:37 PM): The men each have gobs of good characteristics and one flaw. Women the other way around. IN GENERAL
Bookman99R (7:42:47 PM): she appears to have it all, just about
morganuci (7:43:03 PM): What about Wyoh?
Bookman99R (7:43:15 PM): hmmm… something to that
Major oz (7:43:41 PM): Wyoh’s appearences are so brief that she cannot be well evaluated.
AGplusone (7:43:56 PM): I don’t know about men with just one flaw. The later Lazarus s a PITA.
Major oz (7:44:02 PM): Whe sounds like a meta-fiction
Major oz (7:44:17 PM): And that is his flaw
Major oz (7:44:28 PM): …but that is all
Bookman99R (7:44:44 PM):LL is an asshole, IMO
AGplusone (7:44:50 PM): Colin is stubborn and conflicted
Major oz (7:44:56 PM): yeah, his one fatal flaw
AGplusone (7:45:00 PM): Zebbie is immature
Bookman99R (7:45:16 PM): RAH had a real ability to write jerks who come off as sympathetic charachters
Major oz (7:45:21 PM): But each has an absense of multiple flaws.
Major oz (7:45:36 PM): …just the one big killer one
AGplusone (7:45:39 PM): Jake has multiples
aggirlj (7:46:00 PM): Gee, I thought this was about women in Heinlein.
AGplusone (7:46:07 PM): Can’t lead, egomaniac, can’t follow, and won’t get out of the way.
Major oz (7:46:09 PM): That’s where the IN GENERAL comes in. Jake is a paper mache character.
Bookman99R (7:46:10 PM): point to Jane
AGplusone (7:46:28 PM): I didn’t think he was paper. Worked for one like that once.
AGplusone (7:47:10 PM): He needs a Sharpie … to beat him every night.
Major oz (7:47:19 PM): H tried to reverse the male and female attributes in Jake and Hilda. It almost worked, but Hilda was such a harpy that it didn’t come off.
Motherthing2002 (7:47:44 PM): I didn’t see her as that much of a harpy
AGplusone (7:48:02 PM): A good match, of opposites. Like a sado mascochist
Major oz (7:48:07 PM): I should have said: “H tried to reverse HIS male and….”
Motherthing2002 (7:48:09 PM): some of the harpy-ness was simply expedience
AGplusone (7:48:22 PM): Jake Sprat and his wife who could eat no lean.
Major oz (7:48:57 PM): eggs — omlets ?
Bookman99R (7:49:11 PM): not to mention Hilda had a big problem – establishing her authority as Capitan, without command structure & tradition to back it up
AGplusone (7:49:37 PM): sodium and chloride, both poisons, ye† become the salt of life
Major oz (7:49:56 PM): Shame, David
AGplusone (7:50:04 PM):
aggirlj (7:50:09 PM): Did you do that on purpose.
Major oz (7:50:19 PM): Faulty analogy
Bookman99R (7:51:24 PM): not to mention that as Captain, Hilda had to deal with external male authority figures who were, in the main, sexist themselves
AGplusone (7:51:39 PM): I think Heinlein was parodying himself with Jake.
aggirlj (7:51:50 PM): I think you are all sugar coating this.
Major oz (7:52:00 PM): Back to my original whine: I am not in agreement with the “RAH was a sexist” chants, but I am leaning to the one dimensiolity of most of his fems.
Bookman99R (7:52:00 PM): one way, or another she had to kick them in the teeth until they treated her as an Equal
AGplusone (7:52:43 PM): Like Friday does to Percival. Bind him up and then let him free.
Major oz (7:52:54 PM): She could get by with it, R, because they thought so in the first place.
Bookman99R (7:52:55 PM): you may have a point, Oz, as there were damn few Femal leads
aggirlj (7:53:00 PM): It is impossible, given the time and what was the norm, to not say RAH had sexist leanings.
Bookman99R (7:53:54 PM): I dunno if “leanings” is quite the term I’d use, madam Jane
AGplusone (7:54:20 PM): Well, in 1938 when he wrote FUTL he used the word “nigger” which they edited out of what they published. The one edit I noticed.
Bookman99R (7:54:23 PM): biases of several sorts, though
Major oz (7:54:52 PM): Hilda was what-was-left. Zeb had no scruples or values. Deety was a wrist-to-the-forehead swooner. Jake was a non-person. Hilda had an agenda and saw the opening.
Motherthing2002 (7:55:21 PM): was he fighting those biases by going too far in the other direction(for the time)?
aggirlj (7:55:48 PM): He had a tendency to fluff it up.
Major oz (7:55:51 PM): Do you mean he was ahead of his time in equality, so he compensated?
AGplusone (7:55:54 PM): He mother, Bam, was a feminist. For his time he echoed her.
AGplusone (7:56:22 PM): His …
Major oz (7:56:32 PM): Bam was a suffreget, but was she a feminist in the way we think of it today?
Major oz (7:56:53 PM): “Feminist”, today, is MUCH more than equality.
Bookman99R (7:57:00 PM): from what I gather, especially in the SF field, RAH certaily moved female charachters up the food chain, at least intil 1970 or so
Motherthing2002 (7:57:04 PM): time to go cuddle up to some pain pills—good night all!
AGplusone (7:57:10 PM): Couldn’t have been. She wouldn’t have been able to envision where Paglia et al would take it.
aggirlj (7:57:15 PM): It may be that he gave his women characters strong
AGplusone (7:57:16 PM): Night MT
Major oz (7:57:18 PM): Night MT
Bookman99R (7:57:21 PM): good night, m’dear
aggirlj (7:57:23 PM): Bye Motherthing
Motherthing2002 has left the chat room.
aggirlj (7:58:01 PM): nevermind
Bookman99R (7:58:27 PM): she leaves like a cat
Bookman99R (7:59:00 PM): ok, since there’s a lull…
Major oz (7:59:07 PM): But……..even in the face of my leanings, I don’t see any of his fems thinking of themselves as subservient.
AGplusone (7:59:32 PM): I think he was still moving them up in the 1980s with Friday, Rusty. She’s actually the bisexual that idiots like Mendelsohn claim Heinlein doesn’t reach.
Major oz (7:59:33 PM): ….even though they ALL supported whatever man was in their lives.
Bookman99R (7:59:40 PM): how much of RAH’s treatment of female charachters was influenced by the Market?
aggirlj (7:59:55 PM): Or the editor?
Major oz (8:00:18 PM): Did H ever speak on fems in combat?
AGplusone (8:00:29 PM): Helen
Major oz (8:00:41 PM): ?
Major oz (8:00:54 PM): wetware drying up
aggirlj (8:00:59 PM): Gotta go.
AGplusone (8:01:02 PM): Tunnel in the Sky. Captain Helen Walker, Amazons.
Major oz (8:01:05 PM): bye Jane
Major oz (8:01:11 PM): ah, so
AGplusone (8:01:13 PM): Nte Jane
Bookman99R (8:01:15 PM): g’nioght Jane
aggirlj (8:01:21 PM): bye for now
aggirlj has left the chat room.
AGplusone (8:01:38 PM): She had a company of what sounded like Infantry to me.
Major oz (8:01:56 PM): (couldn’t read Jane’s yellow name — didn’t know who she was)
morganuci (8:02:02 PM): Were they mixed or all women?
Major oz (8:02:18 PM): Amazons tells me all fems
Bookman99R (8:02:21 PM): Hmmm TCWWTW, the “apnking girl”
AGplusone (8:02:26 PM): And Carolyn was going to be just like her. {It’s that windows you have Oz]. I think the Amazons were just that.
Bookman99R (8:02:32 PM): spanking
AGplusone (8:02:36 PM): Gretchen.
Bookman99R (8:02:56 PM): yeah, she was a captain of something or other, IIRC
Major oz (8:03:13 PM): Was she the spy?
Bookman99R (8:03:27 PM): I think RAH tended to all-one-sex combat units, though
Bookman99R (8:03:53 PM): Gretchen? I thought Bill was the spy
Major oz (8:03:55 PM): But did he ever say anything IRL about the subject.
Major oz (8:03:57 PM): ?
AGplusone (8:04:14 PM): Done a few tours between Number and To Sail. No. The little girl whose parents lived on the Moon, rescued Colin and Hazel, and then shows up in To Sail with her company of archers for the battle of britain.
Major oz (8:05:05 PM): Oh, yeah. The one who gets lost in the town square with more than one of her running around.
Major oz (8:05:35 PM): I always thought of her as a time travelling Mossad.
Bookman99R (8:05:41 PM): heh
Bookman99R (8:06:15 PM): but IIRC, Gretchen was a combat vet, byt the time Colin had the leg grafted on
AGplusone (8:06:32 PM): (“Number” should be “Cat”)
AGplusone (8:06:45 PM): Yes, “Done a few tours”
AGplusone (8:07:00 PM): or loops
Bookman99R (8:07:43 PM): heh – “All you Zombies” does the protagonist get classed as male, or female?
Major oz (8:07:48 PM): A woman that I thought was “all woman” — who was sure of herself and had no pretentions was the wife of the airline pilot in Friday.
Bookman99R (8:07:55 PM): or just a matter of deliberate deception?
Major oz (8:08:11 PM): I would have liked to see her character developed more.
Bookman99R (8:08:27 PM): don’t recall her
AGplusone (8:08:38 PM): That was Friday’s first female partner–the one Mendlesohn thinks desn’t exist in Heinlein.
AGplusone (8:08:46 PM): Janet.
Major oz (8:09:28 PM): H’s very last fem, Margareth, was an absolute washout — a nothing, even though she liked ice cream.
AGplusone (8:09:47 PM): No, Janet was the architect in Canada. Torchy was the pilot’s sister. I don’t think the airline pilot had a wife. Just girl friends.
Bookman99R (8:09:56 PM): Q: does “strong female charachter” only count for positive role models?
AGplusone (8:10:13 PM): Mrs. Keithley
Bookman99R (8:10:21 PM): yup
Major oz (8:10:23 PM): No. A fem can be a strong, nasty bitch.
Major oz (8:10:28 PM): That is still strong.
AGplusone (8:10:39 PM): Sharpie, Hilda
AGplusone (8:10:55 PM): Grandma S†one
Bookman99R (8:11:10 PM): the Mrs. Grew, from Podkayne
Major oz (8:11:15 PM): I admit to G-ma
Major oz (8:11:33 PM): Mrs. Grew is one dimensional.
Major oz (8:11:45 PM): good or bad doesn’t matter.
AGplusone (8:11:47 PM): Even Dr. Edith Stone when you got in her way. For that matter, Poddy’s mother was probably hell on wheels.
Major oz (8:11:57 PM): Probably
Major oz (8:12:01 PM): but we never know
Major oz (8:12:07 PM): Yo, JJ
Bookman99R (8:12:14 PM): yeah, but off-stage too much to count, I think
Bookman99R (8:12:37 PM): Poddy’s mom, that is
AGplusone (8:12:58 PM): The unpublished Number contains the real Dejah Thoris and another one from Burroughs who are strong.
Bookman99R (8:12:59 PM): “Mary”, from Puppet Masters?
Major oz (8:12:59 PM): I just got a message that JJ signed on, but don’t see him in the roster. Anyone else get the message?
Bookman99R (8:13:16 PM): JJ?
Major oz (8:13:21 PM): Brannon
AGplusone (8:13:31 PM): Yeah, just sent him an invite
Bookman99R (8:13:32 PM): no-see-um
JJ Brannon has entered the chat room.
Major oz (8:14:01 PM): Hey JJ
Bookman99R (8:14:03 PM): hi, JJ
AGplusone (8:14:07 PM): Hi, JJ. Talking about Heinlein’s Wimmen
morganuci (8:14:08 PM): Welcome!
JJ Brannon (8:14:09 PM): RAH’s women?
Major oz (8:14:15 PM): fictiona;
Major oz (8:14:18 PM): l
JJ Brannon (8:14:27 PM): That, too!
morganuci (8:14:33 PM): Humm Maybe next month it should be the real ones?
Major oz (8:14:51 PM): Before I forget, JJ, I need a pic of the “painted lady”
AGplusone (8:14:54 PM): Dont know enough about Elinor
AGplusone (8:15:11 PM): I got one, but I could use any others you have JJ
Bookman99R (8:15:19 PM): heh, if you mean from the Centennial, count me in!
Major oz (8:15:31 PM): …in the original paint.
JJ Brannon (8:16:09 PM): Pam told me. I have one somewhere.
JJ Brannon (8:16:22 PM): But you still don’t have broadband?
Major oz (8:16:50 PM): I tried her home page, but my credit card timed out. 🙂
JJ Brannon (8:17:04 PM): Something about recs.art?
Major oz (8:17:29 PM): …and a 900 number
AGplusone (8:17:55 PM): You’ll have to make do with the one I’ll publish of Kondo looking at her with a bemused expression while her bodyguard glowers over.
JJ Brannon (8:17:57 PM): :>)
Bookman99R (8:18:19 PM): lol
Major oz (8:18:25 PM): You got my CD, didn’t you, David?
AGplusone (8:18:32 PM): Huh?
Major oz (8:18:49 PM): All the pics from Centennial and Denver
AGplusone (8:18:56 PM): No!
Major oz (8:19:24 PM): AAARRRRGGGG Let me take the broom to my desk in the next coupla days.
AGplusone (8:19:24 PM): Unless you’ve mailed it rather recently. Say after the New Years
Major oz (8:19:41 PM): It is boxed. I thought I mailed it over a month ago.
Major oz (8:20:12 PM): I vil fix
JJ Brannon (8:20:13 PM): I ordered a laptop right after the Centennial, because of the battery, and it arrived on 9 Au/
AGplusone (8:20:18 PM): ppreciate it
Major oz (8:20:44 PM): So, JJ. Tell us which RAH woman you would like to spend a month on a sailboat with.
Major oz (8:20:59 PM): ….and why
JJ Brannon (8:21:03 PM): 9 Aug and broke my arm 11 Aug. I got the new machine unboxed two months later.
JJ Brannon (8:21:34 PM): Stumper!
AGplusone (8:21:35 PM): Dorcas … and if I have to tell you why you haven’t read Stranger lately.
JJ Brannon (8:21:41 PM): Les’ see…
AGplusone (8:22:41 PM): ” … ‘xactly how much of the Koran do I have to read, Stinky.” or wtte
AGplusone (8:23:01 PM): I think she’s the one got Michael
morganuci (8:23:12 PM): I always thought so also
Bookman99R (8:23:58 PM): could be
JJ Brannon (8:24:17 PM): Not Friday, maybe Delilah and a solar sail.
Major oz (8:24:29 PM): For me, it would have to be one who could handle both me and the sails.
JJ Brannon (8:24:46 PM): Well, Delilah’s a rigger…
JJ Brannon (8:24:55 PM): :>)
Bookman99R (8:25:01 PM): no, she’s a commo spec
Major oz (8:25:03 PM): yuk, yuk
AGplusone (8:25:42 PM): “Dorcas is willing” See: http://ky.essortment.com/biblewomendorc_rerm.htm
Major oz (8:25:45 PM): ‘fraid Friday has to be the one, cause I really don’t want the empress of all the galaxies on board.
Bookman99R (8:25:51 PM): I’m really hard-pressed, on that one
JJ Brannon (8:26:01 PM): Some of it must have rubbed off on her. *coff*
Major oz (8:26:10 PM): bible-women-dork ???
Bookman99R (8:27:25 PM): oh, Oz?
Bookman99R (8:27:41 PM): for some reason, you were never on my AIM list
Bookman99R (8:27:49 PM): I’ve corrected that
Major oz (8:28:29 PM): When I came back from two years in the islands, I flipped a coin between motorhome and sailboat. Came up motorhome. I didn’t know any fem that would want to sail blue water other than my niece and I’m not into incest.
Bookman99R (8:28:32 PM): Mary Lou might make a good choice
Major oz (8:28:47 PM): hoo is mary lou?
Bookman99R (8:28:54 PM): ML Martin
Major oz (8:29:19 PM): wetware backup…….amplify, please
Bookman99R (8:29:31 PM): “Let There Be Light”
Major oz (8:29:45 PM): Friday’s mom?
Bookman99R (8:29:53 PM): pretty blonde who’s as smart ans any 3 men
JJ Brannon (8:30:02 PM): Gail?
AGplusone (8:30:07 PM): The one who with Archie invents the sunscreens in Let There Be Light, but lets Archie have the credit.
Major oz (8:30:23 PM): hokay, hokay………..
AGplusone (8:30:41 PM): Patterson thinks she has ‘self-esteem’ problems. Sorta like Ginny I suppose.
AGplusone (8:30:53 PM): An enabler.
AGplusone (8:31:15 PM): Presentism criticism.
Bookman99R (8:31:17 PM): or she just doesn’t have anything left to prove
Bookman99R (8:32:00 PM): got a list of accomplishments as long as her arm, already, where Douglas is an unknown
Major oz (8:32:10 PM): Actually, the best developed fem I can recall, from the standpoint of multiple strengths, is the double-crossing bitch from _Door Into Summer_
Bookman99R (8:32:24 PM): interesting
AGplusone (8:32:45 PM): The one who is described looking like Betty Grable or Marilyn Monroe or the feather dancer depending on what version you read.
Bookman99R (8:33:02 PM): although she was ultimately self-destructive, from just those strengths
Major oz (8:33:17 PM): …but they were there
Bookman99R (8:33:21 PM): Belle, wasn’t it?
Major oz (8:33:26 PM): ya
AGplusone (8:33:28 PM): DArkin
morganuci (8:33:57 PM): Do you think ML did what she did because of her looks (and having grown up with them)?
Bookman99R (8:34:04 PM): Rikki the child we knew a bit about
Bookman99R (8:34:13 PM): as an adult, she a zero
JJ Brannon (8:34:35 PM): I want a grown woman.
AGplusone (8:35:09 PM): We could consider Dora the human from Happy Valley.
Major oz (8:35:29 PM): When I read Job the first time, I was hoping that it would evolve into a strong, loving couple living out a life in mutual love and support — almost, but not quite a happily-ever-after story. If he had lived long enough, I like to
AGplusone (8:35:33 PM): tougher than the rest I think
JJ Brannon (8:35:34 PM): Some who can shoot, canoe, and handle calculus.
Bookman99R (8:35:35 PM): yeah, but she’s gotta be interesting beyoond looks, for the sailboat scenario
Major oz (8:35:42 PM): think that he would have written that, as a biographical fini.
Major oz (8:36:45 PM): Dora would circumnavigate well.
AGplusone (8:36:48 PM): Well, he’d have had to sail quite farther beyond the sunset, but I think he was pointing there with Friday’s return.
Bookman99R (8:37:11 PM): brb
AGplusone (8:37:24 PM): She’s not staying on Toowoomba once she’s empty nested.
Major oz (8:37:58 PM): I forget. Does that universe have forever-young treatments?
JJ Brannon (8:38:23 PM): Eventually.
AGplusone (8:38:29 PM): It’s got Jake’s marvelous machine, and Boondock has it.
Major oz (8:38:32 PM): …and you underestimate the grandma reflex
AGplusone (8:39:01 PM): Just as Maureen gets it, and the Doc will, then Friday will.
AGplusone (8:39:23 PM): We All Become Gods!
Bookman99R (8:39:37 PM): heh
Major oz (8:39:41 PM): Hokay, I agree. She can always go back for g-kid bar-mitzvas
JJ Brannon (8:40:15 PM): Of course, on solar sails, one could literally sail into the sunset.
Bookman99R (8:40:18 PM): I dunno about Gods, David, but I’ll nominate you for Prophet
AGplusone (8:40:26 PM): stop by the Twelve Universes and take a trip with Oscar
Bookman99R (8:40:38 PM): you can certainly generate the text
Major oz (8:40:39 PM): Forever corny: “First star to the right, straight on ’till morning”.
AGplusone (8:40:48 PM): Yep.
Major oz (8:41:18 PM): I loved it when JTK said it in one of the SW movies.
Bookman99R (8:41:30 PM): ‘course, I’m getting pretty verbose, these days – PKB?
Bookman99R (8:41:31 PM): lol
JJ Brannon (8:41:49 PM): “City on the Edge of Forever”
Major oz (8:41:59 PM): ok
JJ Brannon (8:42:11 PM): Methinks.
Bookman99R (8:42:19 PM): nah, that was an ep
Major oz (8:42:54 PM): The sailor in me always wonders how one tacks a solar sailing vessel. What does the keel push against?
Bookman99R (8:43:08 PM): at the endof the one following “Save the Whales”
AGplusone (8:43:09 PM): Reading STranger is fun again. Sitting and making a list of all the undiscussed points this time.
Bookman99R (8:43:15 PM): or at the end of that one??
Bookman99R (8:43:46 PM): I’ve wondered that myself, Oz
morganuci (8:44:08 PM): How about we do Stranger next month, if you have a pre-made list of Qs?
Major oz (8:44:10 PM): Kinda like Richard Dryfus walking onto the alien ship to the strains of “When You Wish Upon A Star”.
AGplusone (8:44:11 PM): Probably a discussion of it in Flynn’s novel.
AGplusone (8:44:40 PM): Fine with me. Might use a compare contrast between 61 and 91 while I’m at it if I find anything.
morganuci (8:45:04 PM): I was going to ask, which version were you reading this time?
AGplusone (8:45:21 PM): Compared the discussion of goats in 91 and 61 Tim?
Major oz (8:45:26 PM): David, are you and Bill P the only ones who have done a side by side read of them
AGplusone (8:45:36 PM): No, Geo did one.
morganuci (8:45:41 PM): No, I should!
AGplusone (8:45:48 PM): And I haven’t actually finished one.
Major oz (8:45:59 PM): Takes a lot more energy than I have.
Major oz (8:46:21 PM): ‘course, I could have done it in the bomb shelter monday night…….
AGplusone (8:46:26 PM): Not that hard. Just read the 91 with the 61 in your lap.
AGplusone (8:47:11 PM): Every chapter stop and read the other quickly. See if there’s notable omissions or significant changes.
Bookman99R (8:47:27 PM): I dunno about next moth – SIASL is a big bite for one discussion
Major oz (8:47:40 PM): Didn’t you say there is about 3K word difference?
AGplusone (8:47:46 PM): Could do it one book at at time. Five books in Stranger.
Bookman99R (8:47:51 PM): I shoulda thought to generate a charachter list
Bookman99R (8:47:56 PM): a thought
AGplusone (8:47:59 PM): More like 30 K difference.
Major oz (8:48:07 PM): eeeek
morganuci (8:48:09 PM): I thought it was more like 50,000? 160K to 220K.
AGplusone (8:48:17 PM): yeah
morganuci (8:48:24 PM): The AR web site says the regular version is 157,xxx words.
JJ Brannon (8:48:28 PM): 65K
Major oz (8:48:31 PM): I have read them both, but not simul…..simle……silum.ll………at the same time
Bookman99R (8:48:38 PM): or at least by themes sex & marriage, religion, press, government
Bookman99R (8:49:03 PM): etc
Major oz (8:49:30 PM): Can do, but have just begun a re-read on Steel Beach.
Bookman99R (8:49:35 PM): although I hope that by next moth, I’ll be unavailable to muddle things up in these chats
Bookman99R (8:50:06 PM): (meaning that I’ll be back to work, finally)
AGplusone (8:50:30 PM): Could do “His Maculate Origin” and “His Preposterous Heritage” first month, then “Eccentric Education” and “Scandalous Career” next, and finish with “Happy Destiny” the third one.
Major oz (8:50:31 PM): Out of a whole month, the second Thursday is the only one that I have a comitement for. A bit of sickness tonight is why I am here.
Major oz (8:50:53 PM): …..and I am virtually never home weekends.
JJ Brannon (8:50:56 PM): Your band.
AGplusone (8:51:02 PM): That would take us through April.
morganuci (8:51:09 PM): How about a different Thursday?
AGplusone (8:51:17 PM): Fine with me.
Major oz (8:51:20 PM): I am just one guy
Major oz (8:51:26 PM): don’t do it for me
JJ Brannon (8:51:34 PM): Oz, what’s your email?
AGplusone (8:51:36 PM): Sure we can.
Bookman99R (8:51:40 PM): well, they’re gonna need you to replace me, Oz…
Bookman99R (8:51:41 PM): lol
morganuci (8:51:58 PM): Truthfully, we’ve shifted around a little from month to month because of my schedule, holidays, etc., so why not for this reason?
JJ Brannon (8:51:59 PM): Got it!
AGplusone (8:52:11 PM): eactly
AGplusone (8:52:20 PM): exactly
JJ Brannon (8:52:21 PM): Still on dialup?
AGplusone (8:52:35 PM): propane powered dialup
Major oz (8:52:40 PM): yeah, propane powered ISP at 28K
Major oz (8:53:16 PM): They change bottles at 0600 and 1800 hrs, daily
Major oz (8:53:43 PM): I live in a county without a stoplight.
Major oz (8:54:10 PM): The one east of me has one. The county west of me has three. The county south has none.
JJ Brannon (8:54:52 PM): Dang! Paradise!
Major oz (8:54:54 PM): No high speed inside the National Forest
AGplusone (8:55:11 PM): How high’s the snow?
Bookman99R (8:55:14 PM): oh, MT did wonder if she’d made a welcome addition, BTW
Major oz (8:55:17 PM): none
Major oz (8:55:19 PM): its the ice
Major oz (8:55:24 PM): but not yet
AGplusone (8:56:14 PM): Easter’s coming soon.
Major oz (8:56:52 PM): The Feds have declared that there were in excess of thrity touchdowns mon night. Two killed, Eleven serious injured. Zillions in damage, including schools and some commercial buildings in city of Springfield.
AGplusone (8:57:11 PM): February 21st good for you, Oz?
Major oz (8:57:13 PM): Three went by me about half a mile away. One was a class 3
Major oz (8:57:32 PM): lemme look
AGplusone (8:58:14 PM): Why don’t we do first two books of Stranger, then Tim, if it’s okay?
Major oz (8:58:16 PM): works for me. SO’s birthday, but we do it on Friday.
Bookman99R (8:58:27 PM): did I go invisible?
AGplusone (8:58:40 PM): No. We still see you.
Bookman99R (8:58:44 PM): ok
Major oz (8:58:50 PM): (streches out arms) where am I ?
morganuci (8:59:21 PM): Agreed—first two books for next month, etc., as proposed.
AGplusone (8:59:24 PM): Ozark National Forest, using your propane powered ISP at 28 K.
AGplusone (8:59:41 PM): ;-P
Major oz (8:59:42 PM): Mark Twain NF, as H would have liked.
JJ Brannon (9:00:14 PM): That’s MO boy!
Major oz (9:00:18 PM): Hey, its witching hour.
morganuci (9:00:28 PM): Yeah, I need to go myself.
Bookman99R (9:00:29 PM): eh?
AGplusone (9:00:35 PM): Yep. three hours.
Bookman99R (9:00:36 PM): nly got 2300 here
JJ Brannon has left the chat room.
AGplusone (9:00:49 PM): By JJ
Bookman99R (9:00:58 PM): but since this is the end of all the show
Bookman99R (9:01:03 PM): g’night gents
AGplusone (9:01:06 PM): I have a log, Tim.
morganuci (9:01:38 PM): OK, good, I’m not sure I do, so I’m glad you’ve got it. Goodnight all!
Major oz (9:01:40 PM): Enjoyed it folks. Looking forward to meeting you, Tim
morganuci (9:01:49 PM): Me too!
Major oz (9:02:06 PM): g-night all
AGplusone (9:02:07 PM): G’nite.
Bookman99R (9:02:11 PM): I’m going to miss this
Bookman99R (9:02:18 PM): (I hope 😉 )
Bookman99R has left the chat room.
Major oz has left the chat room.
morganuci has left the chat room.
End of Discussion
