Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
Thursday 3-29-2001 5:00 P.M. EST
Guest Author: Joel Rosenberg
Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
==========================================================================
This next chat will be a guest author chat. We have had some in the past that have been very enjoyable and I am looking forward to this one as I’ve been reading Joel’s books for about 15 years. Obviously, the more by an author you can read before the chat the better so that you can really grill him but I thought I’d just give a brief summary of what Joel’s written to allow people to pick the books that suit them as he has written quite a few books covering a range of genres.
Guardians of the Flame (GotF) This was where I started all those years ago. There are nine books in this series, the most recent, Not Quite Scaramouche, is out in hardcover and is the only one I haven’t read. The unusual thing about this series is that it covers a fairly long spell of time rather than keeping the lead characters in an unnatural stasis of strength and youth and it has, from time to time come to a halt and gone off at an angle with the focus being on other characters or the next generation. The last two books, Not Exactly The Three Musketeers and Not Quite Scaramouche illustrate this quite well as the three leads were peripheral characters in a few of the earlier books but now hold centre stage.
Anyway, enough of the babbling; the story begins in The Sleeping Dragon; a group of college kids are playing D and D (which I was doing in rl when I first read these books) and their Professor, who is acting as the Dungeon Master sends them, in the roles that they were playing, into the fantasy world of the game. Some now have magical powers, some can heal, some are warriors..one is no longer human.
The world has one major flaw; slavery is a way of life. After incurring the wrath of the slavers the adventurers are forced to make a stand against the whole institution. They set up a village and begin to attack slavers, reinvent superior weapons and gunpowder and re educate enough of the locals to make their settlement viable.
The series follows their adventures, has a major shock for readers at the end of book four and is full of Heinlein references. Heinlein even makes as appearance in Walter’s dreams in The Road Home;
“Under a short brush mustache his smile is not entirely friendly but completely reassuring. He holds his back too straight, beyond that which you expect from a fencer, and maybe that’s because he’s always been a stiff-necked old bastard, with every bit as much stubbornness as insight – but that’s his virtue, not his flaw, and even in a dream I wouldn’t change a hair on his permanently balding head any more than I’d dare to change a word he’d written.”
Joel makes it clear that’s Walter speaking not him btw.
Notice the reference to fencing; that’s another theme, like hatred of slavery that Joel’s books share with Heinlein’s. The three books (more to come hopefully) of the Keeper of the Hidden Ways series focus strongly on a world linked to ours through magical passages where differences of opinion are settled by duels. A swordsman who helped a prisoner to escape that world and took refuge in ours, marries and has a son who, together with his friends, go back and forth between the worlds searching for the jewels of the Brisingamen which contain the missing matter of the Universe and, in the wrong hands could bring about Armageddon. The descriptions of a small town in Dakota and the way they react to the intrusion of the magical world into ours is very well done.
Joel also wrote two books that could be described as Poirot meets the Arabian Nights. well…sort of. D’Shai and Hour of the Octopus are fantasies set in a world where society is in three layers, nobility, middle and peasants with all that that implies. People have talents that can be magically enhanced at will, some are better at it than others. The hero of the books is one of a troupe of acrobats. His sister is killed by a noble and in investigating her death he discovers that his true vocation is the new talent of detection rather than being an acrobat.
The description of the society and the marrying of two genres set this series in a space of its own. Maybe it was too different for some readers but I like these books very much as I am a fan of both fantasy and mystery books.
Finally, there are Joel’s SF books, military SF for the most part and all set in the same universe, though not in the same time span. The major link between them is the planet Metzada, home to Jewish mercenaries and their families. A bare rock of a planet, they can only survive by hiring themselves out as an elite fighting force. Hero and Not For Glory is specifically about them and the character of Shimon is reminiscent of Baslim in COTG.
Links to COTG can also be found ( without any hint of plagiarism) in Ties of Blood and Silver. Here, a youngster, kidnapped as a child from his rich family, is brought up as a beggar and thief by Carlos, a one handed tunnel dweller. See what I mean? But it’s not quite that simple and the characters don’t play the same roles as Thorby and Baslim. It’s going to be hard to get this book but it would be a good one to discuss on the chat.
Finally, Emile and the Dutchman is a story of a team whose job is to check out alien planets, accessible through Star gates and seal them off if need be, depending on how dangerous the aliens are.
Ok, I’m exhausted…anyone read any by Joel? Any favourites? Start thinking of questions to ask, points to raise…less than a week to go.
Jane
——————————————————————————-
In article, ddavitt
wrote:
>This next chat will be a guest author chat. We have had some in the
>past that have been very enjoyable and I am looking forward to this
>one as I’ve been reading Joel’s books for about 15 years.
>
>Joel also wrote two books that could be described as Poirot meets
>the Arabian Nights. well…sort of. D’Shai and Hour of the Octopus
>are fantasies set in a world where society is in three layers,
>nobility, middle and peasants with all that that implies. People
>have talents that can be magically enhanced at will, some are better
>at it than others. The hero of the books is one of a troupe of
>acrobats. His sister is killed by a noble and in investigating her
>death he discovers that his true vocation is the new talent of
>detection rather than being an acrobat.
I think you have the wrong end of Asia – IMHO, these are set in a Japanese analog.
— http://www.halcyon.com/robertaw/
——————————————————————————-
“Robert A. Woodward” wrote:
>
>I think you have the wrong end of Asia – IMHO, these are set in a
>Japanese analog.
>
>
Interesting; when my husband read my post he said; “But D’Shai was Chinese!”
Arabian Nights was an attempt to give a flavour of what the world was like; not intended to be taken literally. I was in a rush 🙂
I don’t think it has a one on one with any terrestrial system but the protocol and the honour/duty obligations do seem to be similar to those of Ancient China/Japan ( having said that, I don’t know a lot about either so I’m willing to be corrected).
The lords/peasants bit can apply equally to Europe in the medieval times or Russia and its serfs….that’s fairly universal.
We don’t see the whole planet of course; only one or two small areas. On a different angle, how do you read the phenomenon of raising kazuh? The first time I read the books I was wondering if it was non magical; a sort of super fast self hypnosis and meditation combined. Having just read them again for the chat I don’t know if it is magic; there are real wizards in the story after all and not everything they do can be explained away. For those who haven’t read them, the wizards have a rather good approach to healing broken bones. Simplified version; they take a skeleton, run wires from it to an unbroken bone on the patient and phlogiston runs between the two bones; law of similarity. Then they break the skeletons bones in the same place as the breaks on the patient and glue them together, thus mending both sets. Clever!
Actually that’s something I’ve noticed about all Joel’s books; there is always a way of instant healing or a method of dulling the pain without making someone unconscious. The GotF series would have ended in book one with everyone dead if it weren’t for those handy healing potions, well known to anyone who’s played D and D. I’m not sure if this is cheating or not…
Jane
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Jane Davitt wrote a summary of Rosenberg’s _Guardians of the Flame_ series which is where I’m trying to begin reading him:
::Anyway, enough of the babbling; the story begins in The Sleeping
::Dragon; a group of college kids are playing D and D ( which I was
::doing in rl when I first read these books) and their Professor, who
::is acting as the Dungeon Master sends them, in the roles that they
::were playing, into the fantasy world of the game. Some now have
::magical powers, some can heal, some are warriors..one is no longer
::human.
“Dungeons and Dragons” was something I never played, although I noted what I thought of as its escapism was popular among draft-eligible students while I was in college in the late sixties and continues popular on through its computer manifestations such as Myst, etc. What I know of it comes from my own daughter’s playing it with friends her own age fifteen years or so ago. I’m also handicapped in being unable to begin at the beginning, or will be at least until I receive and can read the used hardbound book that I’ve mail-ordered that I found available from a dealer listed in “www.bookfinders.com” containing all four the original stories; but I do have the last two of those original four stories, _The Silver Crown_, which I’m reading now, and _The Road to Ehvenor_, as well as the later ones up to but not including _Not Quite Scaramouche_ which I glanced over briefly last week before I found as stopgaps old paperback copies of the earlier stories, yesterday.
For those interested, there is a bookdealer in Chicago listed on Rosenberg’s homepage that is supposed to carry many of the earlier out-of-print books. See,
I can recognize clearly the D & D game in the stories I’m reading: that fantasy is the skeleton of the stories: dwarves, elves, dragons, wizards, spells, healing draughts, swords and human heroes overcoming diverse dangers in episodic encounters. I’m coming into the series in media res: the group of college kids, those left, have already created from freed slaves and others a little island of free civilization they call “Home” out on the border of a feudal world governed by elfin overlords. Karl Cullinane is their heroic warrior leader, Walter Slovotsky his cynical side-kick, Louis Riccetti the engineering student who as “the Engineer” has introduced, manufactures for them and tries to keep exclusive their secret weapon: gunpowder, and its attendant flint and steel handarms. The others remaining include the lady whom Cullinane has cleved unto as wife, a former student named Andrea who has grown into the role she was playing to become a wizard of some ability and a dwarf named Ahira which form once was the game role of a student named James Michael but now is his being. Some’ve started families: Walter and Andrea’s children are about armpit high. They’re involved in a war to the death with “slavers” who seem allied with most of the wizards in this Other Side they’ve been transported to by their Professor. And an ‘arms-race’ has begun … , with the elves trying to trade gold and protection for the secret of gunpowder and the slavers and their wizard allies creating their own spell-fortified substitute therefor.
There’s an echo here, of course, of Robert Heinlein’s story: _Elsewhen_, with the Professor who transports his small seminar of five students into what originally are separate other worlds, but only so far as I can see, a slight one thus far.
I’ll have to wait until my ordered volume arrives before I can read in proper sequence about the “stiff-necked old bastard” who holds his “back too straight” in _The Road Home_, which follows the original four. For now, I’m stuck with Karl and Walter mostly, along with a cast of followers, freed slaves, dwarves, Walter’s friendly dragon, from this new world. From the two major human actors–Cullinane and Slovotsky, I’m reminded of other fictional pairs: the impulsive actor and his introspective alter ego, e.g., Aubrey and Maturin from Patrick O’Brien’s recently and abruptly ended set of sea stories among others who come to mind; but there are distinctions. Here, a form of telepathic communication between some former students is facilitated by the aforesaid friendly dragon who, when in range, functions as a central switchboard and conduit. The dragon also grazes on mountain lions, apparently, a whimsical habit having some utility to humans in a heavily silvan frontier.
So far, from what little I’ve read, these are mostly romance or adventure novels. There’s nowhere near the amount of didactic intrusion we’re used to with Heinlein’s stories. Perhaps some of that comes later, or less directly.
There’s been a little bit of reference to a Constitution of this nascent community of freed slaves Cullinane heads, inspired by the putative and claimed patron saint of libertarians: Jefferson; but such a smidgeon, a reference to his failure to foretell the need for proxy or absenteeism voting in it — warriors out on the frontier cannot abandon their posts and missions to return to vote at a New England sort of town meeting called to decide whether to accept the tendered friendship and sovereignity of an Elfin overlord, that I cannot conclude anything significant yet to address the points raised two weeks or more ago in some posts by a visitor. There’s a talismen, a golden collar of slavery, forged by a dwarf at Karl’s insistence, used by him to argue against the security of this offer from the Elfin overlord.
More later this week, perhaps after I get two or three of these stories behind me. I’m enjoying these so far, even with the slow plot pacing.
—
David M. Silver
“I expect your names to shine!”
——————————————————————————-
Ooops! I wrote:
>For those interested, there is a bookdealer in Chicago listed on Rosenberg’s
>homepage that is supposed to carry many of the earlier out-of-print books.
>See,
which should be followed with this: http://www.winternet.com/~joelr/
—
David M. Silver
“I expect your names to shine!”
——————————————————————————-
AGplusone wrote:
>
>So far, from what little I’ve read, these are mostly romance or adventure
>novels. There’s nowhere near the amount of didactic intrusion we’re used to
>with Heinlein’s stories. Perhaps some of that comes later, or less directly.
>
>
>
There is some David..ISTR it being a lot more focused on interaction between people; how to recognise what they will do, influence their behaviour by manipulation of their vanities or desires and a lot of what it takes to be a leader.
There are very few author speeches; it’s mostly done through the reader hearing a character’s thoughts.
Jane
——————————————————————————-
Jane wrote, concerning themes Rosenberg’s works share with Heinlein:
>Notice the reference to fencing; that’s another theme, like hatred
>of slavery that Joel’s books share with Heinlein’s.
You’ve mentioned but not emphasized one major theme, perhaps predictably. What do you think of this point, Jane, quoted from the end of Part 2 of _The Silver Crown_ which is book three of the Guardians of the Flame series, as Karl thinks of himself as the unrelenting adversary [“weedkiller”] of slavery, and then thinks again:
“No. Lou Riccetti was the weedkiller, although eventually the secret of gunpowder would get out. And that might not be a bad thing. Like them or not, guns were a leveling phenomena, a democratizing one, in the long run. ‘All men are created equal,’ people would say, ‘Lou Riccetti made them that way.'”
See, a gun thread for you! Whatever happened to that nice author and player of D & D, Joel Rosenberg, you used to read?
—
David M. Silver
“I expect your names to shine!”
——————————————————————————-
AGplusone wrote:
>Jane wrote, concerning themes Rosenberg’s works share with Heinlein:
>
>>Notice the reference to fencing; that’s another theme, like hatred
>>of slavery that Joel’s books share with Heinlein’s.
>
>You’ve mentioned but not emphasized one major theme, perhaps predictably. What
>do you think of this point, Jane, quoted from the end of Part 2 of _The Silver
>Crown_ which is book three of the Guardians of the Flame series, as Karl thinks
>of himself as the unrelenting adversary [“weedkiller”] of slavery, and then
>thinks again:
>
>”No. Lou Riccetti was the weedkiller, although eventually the secret of
>gunpowder would get out. And that might not be a bad thing. Like them or not,
>guns were a leveling phenomena, a democratizing one, in the long run. ‘All men
>are created equal,’ people would say, ‘Lou Riccetti made them that way.'”
>
>See, a gun thread for you! Whatever happened to that nice author and player of
>D & D, Joel Rosenberg, you used to read?
>
>
He is still an _American_ author, David….and I defy you (she says, knowing Deja/Google isn’t fully up and running, or wasn’t last time I looked) to find any gun thread where I argued that they weren’t necessary within a dangerous, frontier type environment. My recent article on Red Planet in The Heinlein Journal ( shameless plug) says that the colonists needed their guns for protection…I just didn’t like the way Jim went for his at the slightest hint of opposition or trouble.
The world into which Karl and friends were sent was a curious mixture; primitive in some ways but with magic giving it some advantages that would be impossible to duplicate on The Other Side; healing draughts being the obvious one. They needed the edge of superior weaponry because they only had a limited amount of magical talent…and a dragon. He’s another very handy plot device ( as well as being as appealing as Sir Isaac in many ways).
Swords are still used more for fighting though; especially in honour situations. And Ricetti makes way more things than weapons; electricity, communications, heating..he is trying to build Rome in a day of course but when you’re recreating, not inventing from scratch, it’s amazing how fast you can go.
I like this sort of story; Lest Darkness Fall, the Frankowski series if you get rid of some of the sub plots and , of course, the middle portion of Farnham’s Freehold. I wish it had been given more airtime in the books; the effect of a handful of strangers on a whole world because of their different knowledge is intriguing. And if they hadn’t had their character’s strengths and powers..they’d probably have all die around chapter 5.
Oh, and although they do keep one step ahead of the slavers, it’s interesting that a magical version of a gun appears at one point. It’s never safe to assume that the natives are stupid because they don’t have TV and other civilizing influences :-))
Jane
——————————————————————————-
Jane replied, concerning the gun thread in the “Guardians of the Flame” series by Rosenberg:
>He is still an _American_ author, David… [snip]
But, Jane, you do recognize that when Karl thinks of Lou as the “great equalizer,” he’s merely repeating what was said of Col. Samuel Colt, inventor of the six-shooter?
>The world into which Karl and friends were sent was a curious mixture; primitive
>in some ways but with magic giving it some advantages that would be impossible to
>duplicate on The Other Side; healing draughts being the obvious one. They
>needed the edge of superior weaponry
But not wholly against the frontier, per se, against other sentient beings, including significantly those who would enslave them, either directly or by a friendly offer of the golden collar which would make them subjects rather than free citizenry, e.g., the elfin overlord. That viewpoint, of course, is again a particularly _American_ one.
>I like this sort of story; [snip]
>I wish it had been given more airtime in the books; the effect of a handful of
>strangers on a whole world because of their different knowledge is intriguing.And
>if they hadn’t had their character’s strengths and powers..they’d probably have all
>die around chapter 5.
I think perhaps the classic example of this sort of story comes from history, not fiction: Xenophone, and the only exotic strength and power those 10,000 mercenaries had was their discipline and single-minded decision that they would not accept enslavement to a King that desired and pursued them with an army of slaves.
—
David M. Silver
“I expect your names to shine!”
——————————————————————————-
AGplusone wrote:
>Jane replied, concerning the gun thread in the “Guardians of the Flame” series
>by Rosenberg:
>
>>He is still an _American_ author, David… [snip]
>
>
>
>But, Jane, you do recognize that when Karl thinks of Lou as the “great
>equalizer,” he’s merely repeating what was said of Col. Samuel Colt, inventor
>of the six-shooter?
>
>
Yes; I went through a cowboy book phase when I was about 12 so I’m familiar with that expression. The books I read went into a lot of detail about “The Peacemakers”, if I’m remembering the term correctly.
It wasn’t true though, not totally. It might have levelled the playing field a bit but the man or woman who had better gun _skills_ was still going to beat someone with a better gun who was short sighted, not as fast on the draw ( though that was probably less of an issue in every day life) or just not as good at shooting.
Jane
——————————————————————————-
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:27:03 -0500, ddavitt
wrote:
>Yes; I went through a cowboy book phase when I was about 12 so I’m familiar with
>that expression. The books I read went into a lot of detail about “The
>Peacemakers”, if I’m remembering the term correctly.
>It wasn’t true though, not totally. It might have levelled the playing field a bit
>but the man or woman who had better gun _skills_ was still going to beat someone
>with a better gun who was short sighted, not as fast on the draw ( though that was
>probably less of an issue in every day life) or just not as good at shooting.
Nonsense. As long as you have a bare minimum of skill, you can win a gunfight. The secret is to catch your opponent from behind at point-blank range, and empty your weapon into him. It helps if he’s drunk.
That high noon stuff is just plain dumb and way too dangerous.
John M. Atkinson
yahoo dot com
——————————————————————————-
“John M. Atkinson” wrote:
>
>Nonsense. As long as you have a bare minimum of skill, you can win a
>gunfight. The secret is to catch your opponent from behind at
>point-blank range, and empty your weapon into him. It helps if he’s
>drunk.
>
>That high noon stuff is just plain dumb and way too dangerous.
>
>John M. Atkinson
>yahoo dot com
Notice how I mentioned that point? Naturally, in my cowboy books, that sort of thing happened on a regular basis and the heroes were way too nice to shoot people in the back. Might the forensical investigators of the time have frowned on that? Maybe not. However, you have to have an opponent who’s pretty dumb himself if he lets you creep up behind him and point blank range would be needed for someone unfamiliar with weapons. It really isn’t just point and click..hey, you’re the soldier! You should know that!
Jane
——————————————————————————-
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:16:23 -0500, ddavitt
wrote:
>Notice how I mentioned that point? Naturally, in my cowboy books, that sort of thing
>happened on a regular basis and the heroes were way too nice to shoot people in the
>back. Might the forensical investigators of the time have frowned on that? Maybe not
. >However, you have to have an opponent who’s pretty dumb himself if he lets you creep up
>behind him and point blank range would be needed for someone unfamiliar with weapons.
>It really isn’t just point and click..hey, you’re the soldier! You should know that!
True. But the first time I picked up a pistol and shot it with live ammo, it was at a qualification range. And I didn’t do too poorly. I could kill someone from ambush at close range.
John M. Atkinson
yahoo dot com
——————————————————————————-
>Yes; I went through a cowboy book phase when I was about 12 so I’m familiar
>with
>that expression. The books I read went into a lot of detail about “The
>Peacemakers”, if I’m remembering the term correctly.
>It wasn’t true though, not totally. It might have levelled the playing field
>a bit
>but the man or woman who had better gun _skills_ was still going to beat
>someone
>with a better gun who was short sighted, not as fast on the draw ( though
>that was
>probably less of an issue in every day life) or just not as good at shooting
.
He (or she) would also beat someone with no gun at all, kind of the whole point.
It would be really be nice if we didn’t have to have confrontations of that nature. But as long as we remain human beings, we are going to have them. When we do, the equalizers count.
Even if we could somehow get rid of all guns (note our highly successful war on drugs)other factors would come into play. The person who was better with a knife, or fists, or ninja weapons, or whatever would then have the advantage. Give me the gun. I am more likely to be equal with it than with other weapons.
[LV Poker Player]
—
Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!
——————————————————————————-
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:27:28 -0500, ddavitt
wrote:
>I like this sort of story; Lest Darkness Fall, the Frankowski series if you get rid
>of some of the sub plots and , of course, the middle portion of Farnham’s Freehold.
What?
Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?
What series?
All I’ve seen of his is the aforementioned and Fata Morgana.
Did he write something else?
John M. Atkinson
yahoo dot com
——————————————————————————-
“John M. Atkinson” wrote:
>
>
>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?
>
>What series?
>
>All I’ve seen of his is the aforementioned and Fata Morgana.
>
>Did he write something else?
>
>
Both of them looked rubbish and I’ve gone right off him but the first few books in his Cross Time Engineer series were promising. It’s about Conrad, a man from our time who is out hiking and is suddenly back in 1231AD Poland, ten years before the Mongols were due to destroy it. He puts his modern knowledge and memories of history to work, trying to stop this. 5 or 6 in the series, the last one quite recently after a very long gap. He also wrote a stand alone about tree houses that eat people. Copernick’s Rebellion. I’m over simplifying here 🙂
Jane
——————————————————————————-
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:12:15 -0500, ddavitt
wrote:
>Both of them looked rubbish and I’ve gone right off him but the first few books in his
Boy and His Tank is hysterically funny.
>Cross Time Engineer series were promising. It’s about Conrad, a man from our time who is
>out hiking and is suddenly back in 1231AD Poland, ten years before the Mongols were due
>to destroy it. He puts his modern knowledge and memories of history to work, trying to
>stop this. 5 or 6 in the series, the last one quite recently after a very long gap.
>He also wrote a stand alone about tree houses that eat people. Copernick’s Rebellion.
>I’m over simplifying here 🙂
Now here’s the fun question–do those exist outside of used book stores anymore? I’ll have to do some looking.
John M. Atkinson
yahoo dot com
——————————————————————————-
>What?
>
>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?
>
>What series?
>
>All I’ve seen of his is the aforementioned and Fata Morgana.
>
>Did he write something else?
>
The Crosstime Engineer.
I’m drawing a blank on the individual titles, but there were six books in all (five published originally, then a sixth fairly recently.) It involves Conrad Stargard, a modern engineer who is transported to medeival Poland and starts the industrial revolution a little early.
I liked it, but I could see flaws as well.
[LV Poker Player]
—
Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!
——————————————————————————-
>Conrad
>Stargard, a modern engineer who is transported to medeival Poland and starts
>the industrial revolution a little early.
The Radiant Knight is I think the 5th of them. I’m all packed up so don’t have any of them out, but they were page turners. More like Anderson than de Camp, to my mind. He’s got a clock problem — the Mongol horde is due to devaste Poland in a decade or so and he’s trying to get the Poles in shape to turn the invasion aside.
Bill
——————————————————————————-
“John M. Atkinson” wrote:
>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?
>What series?
“The Crosstime Engineer” or some such. Basically, a shameless plug for what a superior grade of human his card-carrying-Mensan protagonist is. Franko can’t go two biographical sentences without mentioning his own card.
Extremely elitist, extremely sexist k-r-a-p.
—
| James Gifford – Nitrosyncretic Press – |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
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——————————————————————————-
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:14:50 -0800, James Gifford
wrote:
>”John M. Atkinson” wrote:
>>Frankowski? Leo Frankowski as in A Boy and His Tank?
>>What series?
>
>”The Crosstime Engineer” or some such. Basically, a shameless plug for
>what a superior grade of human his card-carrying-Mensan protagonist is
. >Franko can’t go two biographical sentences without mentioning his own
>card.
Really.
I didn’t see that in either of his other two books.
>Extremely elitist, extremely sexist k-r-a-p.
Define elitist. Elitist is an accusation that a lot of people are pretty free with nowdays. It has been used to mean strange notions like “competence is good” or “intelligent people are better at technical things” or such anti-egalitarian sentiments.
John M. Atkinson
yahoo dot com
“The soldier is the Army. No Army is better than it’s soldiers. The soldier is also a citizen. In fact, the highest obligation and priviledge of citizenship is that of bearing arms for one’s country.”
— General George S. Patton, USA
——————————————————————————-
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 05:19:17 GMT, (John M. Atkinson) insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:
>Define elitist. Elitist is an accusation that a lot of people are
>pretty free with nowdays. It has been used to mean strange notions
>like “competence is good” or “intelligent people are better at
>technical things” or such anti-egalitarian sentiments.
>
I enjoyed the books – though less so as the series progressed. If you are interested and have trouble locating them, give me an email.
Isn’t there is also a accepted definition of elitism that equates it with snobbery or the unwarranted/untested assumption that a particular class, or group of individuals are superior beings?.
—
Jon
We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people.
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
George S. Patton Jr.
——————————————————————————-
jon ogden wrote:
>>
>
>I enjoyed the books – though less so as the series progressed.
>
>
Same here…I can’t remember them that well and although I still own them I don’t want to read them again just to be able to say for sure what I didn’t like. I have an impression of the lead being very nasty to his wife and forever sleeping with young blondes; not because he wanted to but because they made him. Yeah, right.
I also ( and this may be what Jim meant) think he got very arrogant because of his knowledge of the future and did some questionable things in pursuit of his goals. Further than that I can’t go; must have been 10 years since I read them.
Jane
——————————————————————————-
This is sort of a different sub-thread.
Some three and one-half weeks ago, in a series of posts on another thread criticizing the choice of Joel Rosenberg as a guest author, Bill Williams observed, inter alia, that:
::*Shrug!* I can’t help undertaking such analysis. It doesn’t
::seem to detract from my enjoyment of well-written fiction.
::Indeed, it seems to enhance my appreciation. In Mr.
::Rosenberg’s stuff, by the way, I find an iteration of a
::problem that crops up continually in fantasy written since
::the great “Swords-and-Sorcery” boom began in the ’70s,
::and that has much to do with the economics of the social
::systems in which they’re set. To put it militarily, the *logistics*
::just don’t make sense.
::One of the things I’ve always loved about Heinlein, by the
::way, is the fact that even as I’ve gone back to reread
::the stories and novels of his that I’d read as a child and as
::a teen-ager, the logistics in *his* stuff ALWAYS works. The
::man was an Academy-trained naval officer, and by ghod
::it shows. How the hell he wasn’t snapped up by some
::smart operator in the munitions industry when the Navy
::medically discharged him I will *never* know.
I had to look at this criticism and judge its fairness myself. What follows is pretty long, so skip it if you will.
The “logistics” of fantasy, if fantasy is divided in definition from science fiction strictly as Heinlein did, always necessarily must be suspect, for fantasy must necessarily occur in a universe in which things which are not possible exist, but also in which given our present understanding of science, with reasonable extrapolation thereon, such things cannot exist. Such criticisms can apply to works, as Heinlein noted in the essay “Ray Guns and Rocket Ships,” reprinted in _Extended Universe_ (1980, Ace Books trade paper edition, at 373 ff.), as diverse in scope and quality as the _Odyssey_, Buck Rogers, and Burrough’s Martian stories.
In all these stories, a certain deus ex machina exists, for good or ill, capable of causing the impossible, or at least the impossible as we presently can conceive it rationally, to happen. E.g., unfavorable winds are wrapped up in a bag by a friendly god, winged humanoids are involved in wars with other humanoids, and an oviparous being ends up in marriage if not producing issue was a homo sap [I really have an only vague recollection of Buck Rogers–and that only from early movies–and of the Burrough’s stories following _Princess of Mars_, so I could be wrong about whether Dejah Thoris and John Carter had progeny]. Or as Heinlein put it negatively, fantasy or such adventures include things such as ” … rocket ships that make U-turns, serpent men of Neptune that lust after human maidens, and stories by authors who flunked their Boy Scout merit badge tests in descriptive astronomy.” Id, at 374.
So this given must be present for us to call it either fantasy or adventure occurring in exotic or nonexistent locales, as Heinlein might have called some of Rosenberg’s writings.
And the “Guardians of the Flame” series that I’m now reading for the first time to prepare for our guest’s visit is necessarily fantasy as it occurs in a world on The Other Side inhabited by Dragons, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards, et al., just as did Heinlein’s own _Glory Road_ and “Elsewhen.”
But I am not certain from what I’ve read of Rosenberg thus far that his *logistics* — militarily speaking, are that incredible, once the façade of fantastic characters is ripped away. Bear in mind that only two things here occur, militarily speaking, in _The Silver Crown_, that are fantastic logistics. Spells are employed by wizards, good and bad; and a dragon is used as a cargo carrier, just as an R4D or C-47 Gooney Bird might be [that’s called and misspelled a “Dakotah” by you other English-speaking sorts]. The war episode in Poul Anderson begins his _Operation Chaos_, consciously written by him in emulation of the _Magic, Inc._ universe created by RAH, contained far more fantasies–and lots more dragons, an entire Armored Corps of them (it would take me a couple hundred words to list all of the fantasy just in military roles).
Logistics, militarily speaking, is that branch of military science having to do with procuring, maintaining, and transporting materiél, personnel, and facilities. IOW, what J-4 and J-1 down through S-4 and S-1 does at command levels down through battalion, and what the first sergeant, the company clerk, the cook, and the supply sergeant and any subordinates do at the company level, usually, if they’re lucky in a leg infantry unit, with the one jeep and trailer that used to be allotted to them, and whatever else they can beg, borrow, trade for or steal.
There is a military operation that comprises the middle third of _The Silver Crown_, the relief of Furnael Keep from siege by Karl Cullinane, et co. It involves military logistics, so let’s look at it and see how far-fetched the writing may be.
Baron Furnael and his troops and dependents, numbering somewhere between 200 and 500, we don’t know exactly, are bottled up in their tower keep by a force of about 1,000 Holt troops in a war that has been started by the Prince of Biemstren, Furnael’s overlord, that originally went well for Biemstren, but now that the Slaver’s Guild is providing Holt with magic-powered pseudo firearms is going very badly.
There’s even a description of how these psuedo “firearms” work that sounds plausible to a dumb English major prepared to suspend his disbelief: Riccetti, the former engineering student, and Cullinane’s wife, Andrea Andropolis, who was transported to the other side in her play role of wizard, analyze captured arms and munitions thus: the “slaver powder” is a mixture of tiny blue flecks and white flecks, copper sulfate (white) and cupric sulfate (blue) which is simply copper sulfate that has deliquesced (absorbed water, usually atmospheric) that is somehow (here comes the magic) contained within an unbreakable sphere by strong spells (the magic) so that if sufficient more water is suddenly introduced within the sphere passing through it one way, in the same “unbreakable” sphere tremendous heat transforms the water into steam sufficient to “explode” out of the sphere and propel a projectile down your standard musket barrel. Well, yeah, okay, fine … but that’s the explanation given. I’ll leave it to those of you who attended classes down on places like UCLA’s South Campus wearing slide rules down your legs in the scabbards we used to buy to pick that apart, but Rosenberg’s made an effort to extrapolate something sensible from science into magic. What’s the quote I’ve heard variously attributed to Arthur C. Clarke and perhaps others to the effect of that one man’s magic is another man’s science?
Back to logistics: Cullinane finds out about these pseudo guns and this siege as a result of a ambush by him and a small party on a slaver’s caravan they encounter while deploying most of his party to stations on the frontier defenses of Home, the small state he and the other ex-students have formed. He has to send most of the raiding party on to deployment, leaving himself with a corporal’s guard as escort, about eight mounted troops in all. If Cullinane is to relieve the siege of Furnael, to whose ruling family he owes an obligation, he has to procure, maintain, and transport sufficient materiél, personnel, and facilities to the siege (and since his own troops aren’t available, he has to train the new ones along the way, what we call a “3” staff function).
So how unrealistic is the way the author allows Cullinane to do it? Here’s how:
Step 1:
From interrogation of prisoners (“2” staff function), Cullinane finds that the trade of these pseudo guns is being conducted in a neutral free trade city which has slapped an embargo on trading for guns to avoid being a target of one side or the other. The hired guard of this town consists of mercenaries, from a remote state currently uninvolved in the wars between human principalities that the slavers are prolonging to their profit to slave trading of captives of the contesting armies and refugees they scoop up themselves. The mercenaries adhere to a code of honor. Their honor has been offended by the deceptions made by those who dealt in the firearms. Cullinane manipulates the guard commander into asking that his command be discharged by the free city of its obligation to continue as city guard, and he joins his force to Cullinane’s few to erase the offense to their honor. That gets Cullinane 30 more mounted troopers. On to step two.
Step 2:
Cullinane has arranged an airdrop of muskets, pistols, and munitions sufficient to arm the recruits en route to the situs of step three. In flies the dragon with the air drop and one supplement, an apprentice wizard who next finds himself working out of his job classifications to train the thirty mercenaries in rudimentary musket and pistol. Thirty muskets and even a like number of pistols, together with powder and lead, and one passenger seems within the capability of most dragons I’ve seen in my neighborhood, excepting the runt in Disney’s “Mulan” I watched about a year ago, and please remember this dragon is big enough to graze on mountain lions. Maybe the dragons in your neck of the woods are smaller, but still that load might even be carried by one of the overloaded observation copters used to evacuate wounded in the Korean War. Patton put a battalion of paratroopers one at a time over the Rhine in World War II using light two-seat aircraft. Of course Patton had a lot of light aircraft at his disposal for this stunt. On to step three.
Step 3:
With fundamental training having ensued en route, Cullinane’s forces, now numbering forty, arrives at the capital of Biemstren where he manipulates the ruling Prince’s pride and obligations, just as he manipulated the guard commander’s conception of honor, to succor his feudal subordinate, the Baron of Furnael, for a measly additional sixty mounted mercenaries placed under Cullinane’s command. Now we’re on to step four, another airdrop resupply of arms and munitions.
Step 4:
The dragon’s load is twice what it was the first time, still within reason I suppose … figure two of the MASH helicopters. But let’s consider where these firearms are coming from: as Jane pointed out, Riccetti, the Engineer, is introducing more than merely firearms and powder to this feudal economy and society, just as the blacksmith in Twain’s _King Arthur and the Connecticut Yankee_ did. So, apart from whatever arms were available back at Home, Riccetti’s crews have devoted all their efforts into turning out enough to supply a new 100 mounted musketeers, in a couple of weeks. We don’t have a count on Riccetti’s crews, but we find from another subplot, that involving an election, they are a substantial percentage of the voting community, perhaps a third, so figure fifty journeymen and their apprentices. Even 100 muskets, and there are spares at home, isn’t an impossible task given Adam Smith’s division of labor, etc. Figure one man day to a musket barrel and the lock, and it could be done in a week or so. On to step five.
Step 5: The King’s Road from the capital to Furnael Keep is an easy five day’s coach journey in peacetime. Cullinane takes ten days travelling at night during which time the troops obtained from the Prince are trained in firearms, by horseback, following scouts who mark the way for them to avoid enemy patrols. Not unreasonable, and although there are enemy between the capital and the keep, apparently any scorched earth tactics employed by them are insufficient to denude the forests in which they hide and train in firearms use during the day. Hence, there is foliage for the horses, and carrying ten days rations (including supplemental oats for the mounts) isn’t unheard of for cavalry — in fact, IIRC that’s what Captain Brittles ordered the Paradise River patrol to take with it the last time I watched “She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.” Before arrival at the siege, we have a supplement to Cullinane’s forces. One of his lieutenants had deserted early on. What she was really doing was tracking down a roving element of a force allied to Home forces, consisting of another fifty or so mounted musketeers. They arrive with her. Now we are about 150 mounted musketeers.
Logistically, I think all that above is realistic, granted that here we got dragons instead of C-47s and the real wizard who arrives in the nick of time aboard the dragon’s last flight in with her magic semblence of artillery or heavy mortars. That’s not too unusual in the era into which this society is moving. Custer left the Gatling guns behind for his visit to the Greasy Grass; but when Miles sent the 7th Cavalry to Wounded Knee, he sent not only Gatlings but light artillery as well with them.
Now you haven’t criticized the tactics Cullinan employs, so I won’t get into what occurred during the raising of the siege. The commander of the siege did a dumb thing enabling a simple minded plan of attack to succeed. But what sort of subtle plan can you expect of a hero trained on Dungeons and Dragons? He certainly wasn’t one of Vercingetorix’s buddies up against the other late JC at siege of Alesia. And what was done by the opponent was no dumber than riding with a squadron into Sitting Bull’s camp of 2,000 warriors either. Moreover, we all know about the “flying squad leaders” and some of their dumb decisions during the late Southeast Asia Games held from 1960 onwards … Ia Drang minutes indeed.
Now maybe I’ve found in this one volume by circumstance the only logistically sound episode in the entire Guardians of the Flame series. Maybe I’ll read something in the next third of this novel that will reduce me to weak giggles. But, if there are examples you’d call to my attention, Bill, I’d appreciate knowing specifically what and where they are to be found.
Regards,
—
David M. Silver
“I expect your names to shine!”
——————————————————————————-
AGplusone wrote:
>This is sort of a different sub-thread.
>
>snip of post looking at logistics in GofF
Thanks for that analysis David; it seems that it was all thought out well enough to be reasonable and in a fiction book, read by people like me, whose only experience of logistics is getting two small children and assorted stuff into a car to be somewhere at a specified time, it passed.
In ‘Not For Glory,’ the character narrating remarks that he was fascinated by logistics and describes what he sees as a particularly good example, Patton’s Third Army relief of Bastogne,
” the trick wasn’t just in pulling an army out of a winter battle, turning it ninety degrees, and marching it a hundred-fifty kilometres to launch an attack, it was to make sure that when Patton’s troops started the attack, enough supplies would arrive that they could finish it.A gorgeous exercise…”
He then spends a page ot two describing how the troops in orbit get down to the surface of the home planet, Metzada, when some are wounded and therefore need to be given priority. Whether or not he’s correct, he’s given it thought and not glossed over or ignored the nuts and bolts of it. There’s a fine line of course; too much detail is boring, not enough is suspicious or confusing.
Heinlein was good at working out what he could; planetary orbits, equations for acceleration and such but in a way, he was dealing in fantasy too as some of his space ships use methods of travel that are unlikely. His skill was in making them seem as real as bread and butter but the ship Max travels on that skips about the galaxy in no time at all is really as magical as a dragon it seems to me.
Jane
——————————————————————————-
I’m going to ask Joel about this tomorrow or Saturday but I thought I’d see what some of the people here thought about it.
Two of his books deal with the exiled community of Jewish refugees on Metzada. The inhospitable planet can’t support them; they live in underground tunnels and so the men hire out as mercenaries and the women and children stay on the planet. I have a few problems with this but I’ll concentrate on one book; Hero.
In this book, Ari, the nephew of Shimon Bar-El, the Regimental Commander and generally from an important family, is on his first mission. It’s not a training mission but it’s not expected to be be too difficult; a way of blooding the youngsters without getting them all killed on their first time out.
The bus they are travelling in is attacked and Ari and another boy, Slepak, freeze. Ari’s brothers institute a cover up, saying Ari was caught by blast and had a head injury. He escapes disgrace, though the rumours are starting. The other boy is marched out in front of everyone, has his insignia torn off and is basically told that he let everyone down and is now no longer part of Metzada. He will be left behind on the planet when they all finish the mission and return home.
Ari asks his brothers why he wasn’t treated the same way;
“Because you’re lucky. You’ve got me and Tetsuo watching out for you.” Benyamin sighed.” That poor chickenshit bastard doesn’t have anybody.
Slepak is led away to a local prison for the night and he hangs himself, unable to bear the disgrace.
Ari is given another chance; he is in a hideout and is told to shoot one of the enemy commanders. he sights on him but cannot pull the trigger. When he does, he is firing blindly, with his eyes shut.
This time he cannot get away with it but he still isn’t given the same treatment as Slepak. Instead he is given command of a troop of locals on a virtual suicide mission. Again, for the third time he freezes when it’s time to signal the start of the fighting. His brother sets off a flare which is the signal for the enemy to bombard their position and, since the only hope of living is to attack, Ari leads his men on a beserker attack and emerges a victorious – and alive hero.
As Shimon says,
” A hero is just a coward who got cornered.”
Now my problem is this; I can understand the grim necessity to get rid of those who freeze; they are endangering others. I can’t see that expulsion from the families is necessary though; surely there are jobs back on Metzada that he could do but OK, he has to go. What I can’t understand and what seems to make a mockery of it, is that Ari was just as bad and got kept on simply because he had connections. He proved that he was dangerous the second time he froze; not killing the target put other lives in danger. Even the final time he wouldn’t have attacked if his hand hadn’t been forced. He is rewarded at the end by becoming Shimon’s aide de camp, either to build up a reputation or die, they don’t really care which.
Once the cover up went into place I lost all respect for those involved. I don’t like the Metzada ideals anyway; they don’t care who they fight for, or what the cause is as long as they get paid. It’s supposed to be all justified because the money they earn feed their children back home. This seems to me to be very poor reasoning.They are killing other children so that theirs can live. Their loyalty is to a very small group and, in a vicious circle, they bring the children up to be the same as them; the women to stay underground, the male children to become fighters. I don’t know why they are exiled there or why they can’t use the money from the missions to move someplace else.
it’s made even more problematic by the fact that in “Not For Glory’, Shimon, the heroic commander in the other book, is now an exile himself, with his own nephew, Tetsuo ordered to kill him because he, possibly, took a pay off on a planet. Confusingly, hero comes before Not For Glory chronologically, but was written later. It is impossible to read Hero and see Shimon as a potential traitor. Anyone read these yet? I’d be interested in other POV’s on all this.
Jane
——————————————————————————-
ddavitt
writes:
>AGplusone wrote:
>
>>This is sort of a different sub-thread.
>>
>>snip of post looking at logistics in GofF
>
>Thanks for that analysis David; it seems that it was all thought out well enough to
>be reasonable and in a fiction book, read by people like me, whose only experience
>of logistics is getting two small children and assorted stuff into a car to be
>somewhere at a specified time, it passed.
>
>In ‘Not For Glory,’ the character narrating remarks that he was fascinated by
>logistics and describes what he sees as a particularly good example, Patton’s
>Third Army relief of Bastogne,
Well, it *was.”
>
>” the trick wasn’t just in pulling an army out of a winter battle, turning it
>ninety degrees, and marching it a hundred-fifty kilometres to launch an attack, it
>was to make sure that when Patton’s troops started the attack, enough supplies
>would arrive that they could finish it.A gorgeous exercise…”
>
>He then spends a page ot two describing how the troops in orbit get down to the
>surface of the home planet, Metzada, when some are wounded and therefore need to be
>given priority. Whether or not he’s correct, he’s given it thought and not glossed
>over or ignored the nuts and bolts of it. There’s a fine line of course; too much
>detail is boring, not enough is suspicious or confusing.
Yup. And I’m never, ever sure how well I’ve balanced that stuff out.
>
>Heinlein was good at working out what he could; planetary orbits, equations for
>acceleration and such but in a way, he was dealing in fantasy too as some of his
>space ships use methods of travel that are unlikely. His skill was in making them
>seem as real as bread and butter but the ship Max travels on that skips about the
>galaxy in no time at all is really as magical as a dragon it seems to me.
Yeah. Look at the ten page description of how a space suit works in Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. It’s manifestly, obviously too long and detailed, a clumsy sort of info dump and padding except for one thing: it works *wonderfully”, like the best of John McPhee. That’s a big thing.
[Joel Rosenberg]
——————————————————————————-
ddavitt
writes:
>AGplusone wrote:
>
>>
>>So far, from what little I’ve read, these are mostly romance or adventure
>>novels. There’s nowhere near the amount of didactic intrusion we’re used to
>>with Heinlein’s stories. Perhaps some of that comes later, or less directly.
>>
>>
>>
>
>There is some David..ISTR it being a lot more focused on interaction between
>people; how to recognise what they will do, influence their behaviour by
>manipulation of their vanities or desires and a lot of what it takes to be a
>leader.
>There are very few author speeches; it’s mostly done through the reader hearing a
>character’s thoughts.
>
I once wrote — and they published — a Writers Digest piece on voice and POV in which I kvelled at RAH’s ability to quite stealthily step onstage, make a speech, and get off, without slowing down the story or the reader noticing.
Few are as good at it. Sam Clemens was every bit as good at speechifying, but he was much more direct about stepping onstage to do it.
[Joel Rosenberg]
——————————————————————————-
Wasn’t he from Missouri too?
“Joel Rosenberg”wrote in message
>ddavitt
writes:
>
>I once wrote — and they published — a Writers Digest piece on voice
>and POV in which I kvelled at RAH’s ability to quite stealthily step
>onstage, make a speech, and get off, without slowing down the story or
>the reader noticing.
>
>Few are as good at it. Sam Clemens was every bit as good at
>speechifying, but he was much more direct about stepping onstage to do
>it.
[Geoffrey Clarke]
——————————————————————————-
Joel Rosenberg wrote:
>
>Yeah. Look at the ten page description of how a space suit works in
>Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. It’s manifestly, obviously too long and
>detailed, a clumsy sort of info dump and padding except for one thing:
>it works *wonderfully”, like the best of John McPhee. That’s a big
>thing.
I loved that bit, despite having no idea of what it was all about….I think HSS WT is a very funny book too, in an understated way; the bit where he comes to the table still dressed in Oscar is a great example,
” Dad said nothing and Mother has the social restraint of an ambassador; I discovered my mistake when I picked up my napkin.”
I wonder how dated that description of the suit is? And if any of Kip’s ideas for improvements got incorporated into modern suits?
Jane
——————————————————————————-
Joel Rosenberg wrote:
>ddavitt
writes:
>
>>AGplusone wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>So far, from what little I’ve read, these are mostly romance or adventure
>>>novels. There’s nowhere near the amount of didactic intrusion we’re used to
>>>with Heinlein’s stories. Perhaps some of that comes later, or less directly
. >>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>There is some David..ISTR it being a lot more focused on interaction between
>>people; how to recognise what they will do, influence their behaviour by
>>manipulation of their vanities or desires and a lot of what it takes to be a
>>leader.
>>There are very few author speeches; it’s mostly done through the reader hearing a
>>character’s thoughts.
>>
>
>I once wrote — and they published — a Writers Digest piece on voice
>and POV in which I kvelled at RAH’s ability to quite stealthily step
>onstage, make a speech, and get off, without slowing down the story or
>the reader noticing.
>
>Few are as good at it. Sam Clemens was every bit as good at
>speechifying, but he was much more direct about stepping onstage to do
>it.
Issue? Was it reprinted elsewhere, and might it be accessible as a reprint if I cannot find the Writer’s Digest piece? How come it’s not on your website, Joel?
David
——————————————————————————-
Joel Rosenberg wrote:
>ddavitt
writes:
>[snip]
>
>>
>>Heinlein was good at working out what he could; planetary orbits, equations for
>>acceleration and such but in a way, he was dealing in fantasy too as some of his
>>space ships use methods of travel that are unlikely. His skill was in making them
>>seem as real as bread and butter but the ship Max travels on that skips about the
>>galaxy in no time at all is really as magical as a dragon it seems to me.
>
>Yeah. Look at the ten page description of how a space suit works in
>Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. It’s manifestly, obviously too long and
>detailed, a clumsy sort of info dump and padding except for one thing:
>it works *wonderfully”, like the best of John McPhee. That’s a big
>thing.
That talent was one of the things which made Heinlein a uniquely good writer of the juveniles; it impressed me when I was a juvenile reading his works; and I took advantage of what I learned throughout my secondary schooling to persuade teachers that, even if I was demonstratively lazy, I was intelligent enough to be given the benefit of the doubt in grading.
I wish I could say the same about some of the juvenile writing I’ve glanced at these days, and would really like to know the names of juvenile authors of the present day who have and employ the same talent so that I might recommend them and their works.
David
——————————————————————————-
Go To Postings
Here Begins The Discussion Log
==========================================================================
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
AGplusone: Hi, Dave
DavidWrightSr: Hi. You guys are early.
AGplusone: Yep, we are indeed. Jimmie’s been away a while
AGplusone: You remember “Drumbo” don’t you Dave?
Thundertek: I knew if I didn’t get here when I saw the e-mail I’d miss out – again
DavidWrightSr: I remember the name, but it’s been a while hasn’t it?
Thundertek: Too Long
AGplusone: Dave, the website committee was using a wrong address for you … it’s straightened out now, so you should start receiving stuff from Jon, et al.
DavidWrightSr: Welcome
DavidWrightSr: I noticed something about that earlier.
AGplusone: Good. How’s lycos? Straightened out yet with your website?
DavidWrightSr: Yeah, it’s all back up and running. Had me worried for a bit.
Thundertek: I look forward to seeing Jane again – her posts at AFH are really good – yours too David
AGplusone: Glad to hear that. I was about to start boycotting my favorite general search engine … Hotbot
AGplusone: Thank you … I haven’t read enough Rosenberg yet, but I’m starting to enjoy him
DavidWrightSr: I’ve only read two of them. Hero and Not exactly the three musketeers.
Thundertek: I’m a total virgin –
AGplusone: There’s this little joke in The Heir Apparent …. hi, ho, hi, ho, for it’s off to work we go … can you imagine someone teaching REAL dwarves that song?
DavidWrightSr: I was surprised to see the synopsis of how that all came about. I figured something was strange when Walter Slovotsky made a couple of comments that didn’t fit the world they were, but I wouldn’t have guessed it about D&D
Thundertek: The synopsis discussed at AFH sounds fascinating
AGplusone: I laughed after I read it for about two minutes … it’s hard to pick what’s really going on out at first if you start in the middle
DavidWrightSr: The harshness of Hero put me off a little.
AGplusone: Not read it yet.
DavidWrightSr: Its a kicker.
AGplusone: I didn’t think I’d enjoy them, fantasy’s not my thing. Hero isn’t one of his fantasies, is it?
Thundertek: I’ve never met a real dwarf
DavidWrightSr: No, its about the Metzada mercenaries, that Jane talked about
Thundertek: Except maybe that guy who spams AFH about freezing people
AGplusone: Imagine joking with a former human who was turned into a real dwarf that you’re going to teach his buddies to sing that song …. 😀 you might get killed by him.
OakMan 7111 has entered the room.
AGplusone: When Jane mentioned that series, I had an inkling I might have read it. Hi, Jon!
OakMan 7111: hello folks
AGplusone: Or maybe one book in that series. Sounds like a cross between King David’s Spaceship and the Dorsai
OakMan 7111: I got here by using the link on the society’s site 🙂
AGplusone: so did I, oh great and powerful Webmaster!
joelrmpls has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: LOL
Thundertek: Me too – the site is great
joelrmpls: Hi, all.
DavidWrightSr: Welcome Joel.
AGplusone: Hi, Joel, welcome … my wife said he didn’t know what the name of the city means
AGplusone: she
joelrmpls: This font okay for Mrs. H? Or do I need to go bolder.
OakMan 7111: thanks – wait until we have the french, german and italian versions running, too 😀
AGplusone: bold is better
AGplusone: try this?
joelrmpls: Mpls=Minneapolis
joelrmpls: I take it this is better?
joelrmpls: Or wasn’t that the city that your wife was asking about?
AGplusone: I can tell, yes, I think so, but I’m on a mac so I don’t see necessarily what she sees
joelrmpls: We’ll ask.
fgherman has entered the room.
AGplusone: No, she was born in St. Paul
AGplusone: Good evening, fgherman.
fgherman: Hello
joelrmpls: Ah. The original name was “Pig’s Eye Landing”.
DavidWrightSr: Welcome. Dave, Jimmie this is Joel’s wife.
AGplusone: … and you asked me to ask her if she … that’s it.
AGplusone: Great!
joelrmpls: A missionary couldn’t persuade people to move to Pig’s Eye Landing, so he just pulled the name “St. Paul” out of the air, so to speak.
Thundertek: lol
joelrmpls: Hi, honey. Keep an ear out on the CPCs, please.
AGplusone: LOL … I’ll have to tell her when she gets home.
fgherman: ok
joelrmpls: (CPCs are the “Condom Poster Children” — our daughters.)
AGplusone: Welcome, Mrs. Rosenberg
OakMan 7111: I went to some training sessions in St Paul, last year. It’s so blonde!
DavidWrightSr: I interviewed with Control Data in the 70’s. It was verrrrrry cold there.
joelrmpls: The 70’s isn’t cold.
AGplusone: LOL …. mine’s a little bit past that age, 31
joelrmpls: The -30’s, now that’s cold.
OakMan 7111: I remember the 70’s as being very er…warm
DavidWrightSr: 1970’s winter time. 8 below
joelrmpls: 🙂
AGplusone: but when she turned 14 I started getting terrified remembering the 1970s
joelrmpls: Actually, 8 below isn’t that bad, unless the wind is blowing, if you’re dressed for it.
AGplusone: (or, where you referring to the joke we used to make about her swimming past the coil?)
DavidWrightSr: I’m from Georgia. 8 below is cooooold
AGplusone: were
OakMan 7111: When my stepdaughter turned 14, she became totally almost irrevocably insane
AGplusone: they all do
joelrmpls: I’m so old I remember when sex, drugs and rock & roll were all fun.
OakMan 7111: She actually thot that some of those inarticulate pimple-faced slackers were ‘cute”
AGplusone: boys go irrevocably insane a little older, like 14 – 1/2
fgherman: Felicia Herman, please. Mrs. Rosenberg is my mother-in-law.
OakMan 7111: Hello Felicia
joelrmpls: Please pick a bolder font, darling; easier on Mrs. H’s eyes, when she arrives.
AGplusone: Herman’s a great name. Used to know a great Title 7 lawyer named Stu Herman out here
fgherman: ok
OakMan 7111:
AGplusone: “out here” being LA-LA land
fgherman: And I was in college
fgherman: 🙂
AGplusone: :-X
OakMan 7111: where did you go to college?
fgherman: U. of Conn., where I met Joel
OakMan 7111: I went to B.U.
AGplusone:
Thundertek:
DavidWrightSr: Sewanee.. The University of the South, class of 1962
OakMan 7111: You probably have an interesting view of the sex, drugs and rock and roll decade, David
DavidWrightSr: Which David, me or AG?
OakMan 7111: You DW
DavidWrightSr: Actually, I was kind of naive. I missed it all.
fgherman: It was considered rude in North Carolina, not to share your stash.
OakMan 7111: I didn’t miss any of it – which is why I can’t remember much of it.
AGplusone: Reason I changed my major to English was the co-eds at UCLA in the English department who started burning their bras. I was allowed to “look but not touch” by my wife.
fgherman: Southern hospitality and all that
joelrmpls: Which only makes sense. Who wants to touch a burning bra?
AGplusone: Rofl … truer words never spoken
OakMan 7111: Anyone else remember the pencil test for whether you could burn your bra or not?
AGplusone: nope
fgherman: All too well
OakMan 7111: LOL
joelrmpls: Although didn’t they have reading lights then? You’d think that you’d rather read by light from a bulb than the glow of a burning bra.
OakMan 7111: Well, there’s always braile after the bra burns out
AGplusone: UCLA in those days we read by the glow that came off the contenance of John Wooden
joelrmpls: “I gotta finish this chapter for tomorrow’s class — can you throw another Cross-Your-Heart on the fire?”
fgherman: Joel was good at that
OakMan 7111: finishing chapters, he said innocently
AGplusone: Do you write also, Felicia?
fgherman: Only checks
ddavitt has entered the room.
joelrmpls: Hi there.
ddavitt: Hi everyone
fgherman: Hello
ddavitt: Welcome Joel
OakMan 7111: hi Jane – now that you’re here we can start the party
ddavitt: I have my G and T right here.
AGplusone: btw, I’m David, Oakman is “Jon,” Thurdertek is “Jimmy” and Jane just walked in, Hi, Jane
ddavitt: Hi Jimmy; drumbo yes?
AGplusone: Dave Wright is Dave … or call me AG
Thundertek: Hi Jane !!!
joelrmpls: Hi, Jane. And if I can keep all the real names associated with the AIM names, I’ll be very surprised.
joelrmpls: I’m bad enough with names when I’m playing God.
ddavitt: Doesn’t matter; just say, “hey, you’ 🙂
fgherman: We know
OakMan 7111: So was the other guy who used that name
AGplusone: Yes, and I probably misspelled all of them in one post or the other by now …
AGplusone: we play a lot of games with RAH’s names …
ddavitt: I just finished a fantasy with totally made up names; longing for a simple normal name…couldn’t keep them straight at all
joelrmpls: Typeaux don’t count. That’s what poorfreaders are for.
OakMan 7111: LOL
AGplusone: 🙂
joelrmpls: In fact, I had fun in the new thing I finished making fun of the names in my books.
ddavitt: We get a lot on this chat; too fast to read before hitting send
joelrmpls: “… most of which sounded like a sneeze.”
OakMan 7111: But I write software for a living – be afraid, be very afraid….
ddavitt: Yes; I’d hate to have to read them aloud
joelrmpls: If Mrs. H doesn’t show, we could use smaller fonts.
ddavitt: As long as it’s bold i don’t think a large font is needed
AGplusone: So long as no one uses yellow or orange …
OakMan 7111: Yeah, but AG’s on a mac- you know how bad they are graphically
ddavitt: It’s still early…
fgherman: Kind of like “Eye of Argon”
OakMan 7111: I think I’m probably okay with this and will save some space…
ddavitt: Will reich should be here tonight
AGplusone: uh-huh … that website you wrong made me go to 1024 x 768
joelrmpls: Err… I don’t know how to change the font from here. And neat; Bill’s an old friend.
AGplusone: so I could see it all
OakMan 7111: LOL
ddavitt: He has been very busy but i think he will be co hosting
ddavitt: Yes; he was pleased you were guesting Joel
ddavitt: Something about a bridge game
joelrmpls: Now, if only somebody, somebody would bring me a cognac or grappa.
joelrmpls: Hmmm…
AGplusone: Bill’s visiting with Ginny …
fgherman: Do you still owe him$, Joel?
joelrmpls: In person or online?
AGplusone: I can owe you a bottle of Remy along with the one I owe Joe Haldeman
joelrmpls: Nah, he cleaned me out the last time, but I grew more skin.
OakMan 7111: Joel if you right click (control click) in the input area, you’ll see a font option
joelrmpls: How’s this?
ddavitt: what is grappa like?
ddavitt: Never tried that
joelrmpls: It tastes like gasoline, but good.
fgherman: Like GASOLINE, BUT GOOD.
ddavitt: Hmm..
joelrmpls: Beat you to it.
AGplusone: OTOH, have a virtual glass now.
OakMan 7111: its fine — I meant text, but I guess you figured it out by yerself
ddavitt: I’ll stick with my civilised drink then.
AGplusone: I used to have little graphics I could send into a chat room
ddavitt: Like the smileys?
OakMan 7111: ascii drawings?
joelrmpls: Actually, a young lady just showed up with some cognac and a glass.
fgherman: Who loves you?
ddavitt: Kind of her!
joelrmpls: Yeah.
joelrmpls: Drinking driving/shooting/writing, no. A shot while chatting, sure.
AGplusone: yes
OakMan 7111: back in the days when i had a BBS, there were programs and newsgroups devoted to making drawings using nothing but letters
AGplusone: ascii
joelrmpls: I think there still are ascii-art newsgroups.
OakMan 7111: it was a kinder genetler on line experience back then
AGplusone: Lemme go get on my other computer … and slip them on a zip and bring one over
joelrmpls: Not sure how active they’d be, but hey…
ddavitt: So, what happens to the first person who asks if Karl is still alive?
ddavitt: 🙂
DavidWrightSr: When I left Ga Tech in 1970, I had a tty33 tape which would produce a Playboy bunny when fed through the tape reader. Was about 8 inches high of fan-fold tape.
joelrmpls: >:o
ddavitt: I’m cowering in fear.
joelrmpls: Just got a “I know Karl is still alive” email last week.
AGplusone: Karl went off the cliff with Moriarty, din’ he?
ddavitt: Some people can’t take a hint…
joelrmpls: “He’s just pining for the fjords…”
ddavitt: I think bits of him were scattered around; harder to survive that
joelrmpls: That was what I thought.
fgherman: Karl pate, as it were.
ddavitt: I thought he’d come back for at least a book or two…sigh
joelrmpls: I think it would take a major cheat to bring him back. Of course, if/when I get around to it, I can still write a couple of Karl stories, from the raiding years.
ddavitt: Sure…
fgherman: I *hope* not… Joel’s impossible to live with when he’s writing from Karl
joelrmpls: But there won’t be the tension — everybody will know that he and Tennetty get through it.
ddavitt: true
AGplusone: I thought Tom Clancy tried to do that with Jack Ryan when he wrote the one in which Ryan became President … but no, …
OakMan 7111: (\_/) /. .\ =\_T_/= / \ .-. | _ | / /|| |\\)_|_(/ _ jgs `”” “”` (_)_.-. ‘-‘
joelrmpls: And any unfamiliar character might was well be wearing a Star Trek Security red shirt.
OakMan 7111: well that didn’t work 🙂
Thundertek: lol
ddavitt: What are YOU drinking Jon?!
joelrmpls: Well, depends on what it was suppposed to be, I guess. Sort of a Rorshach thing?
OakMan 7111: harvey’s
AGplusone: you have to set the margins hard Jon
ddavitt: Ah.
joelrmpls: I think this font is more me.
AGplusone: I used to have to adjust my autotyper whenever I changed from one sort of chatroom to another
DenvToday has entered the room.
joelrmpls: I dream in Courier New.
ddavitt: Whatever suits you; as long as it’s black on white it’s fine
DenvToday: Good evening all.
fgherman: You dream in puns, too.
ddavitt: Hello
OakMan 7111: Hi Denv
joelrmpls: Evening. And yes, I do.
fgherman: Hello Denv
DenvToday: Howdy howdy
AGplusone: Hi, Ron
OakMan 7111: Joel how do you feel about libertarianism?
DenvToday: Evening David
ddavitt: It’s 9.00 ish; a few more minutes and we’ll start if that’s OK with everyone
ddavitt: Or then again, we could start now…
fgherman: ok
joelrmpls: Hmmm… short form: I disagree with it. I believe in that social contract stuff.
ddavitt: You’ve changed fonts again!
joelrmpls: Accidentally, somehow or other.
ddavitt: Which is Courier
joelrmpls: This is Courier New.
ddavitt: OK
AGplusone: I’ve never been able to pin down in my own mind exactly what a big-L libertarian is …
ddavitt: Not even after all the afh chat?
AGplusone: naw, I think “they” make it up as they go along
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
joelrmpls: It’s somebody who believes that there are no responsibilities that one takes on except by explicit, voluntary contract, I think.
ddavitt: Hi Will
AGplusone: Hi, Will
ddavitt: I still don’t see why a Heinlein fan has to be one though.
DenvToday: Big L is a member of the Libertarian Party. Small l is a believer is small government–from both the right and the left.
OakMan 7111: I’m beginning to think there are as many definitions of it as there are people who can write the word without a spelling error 3 times out of 5
joelrmpls: I think it’s possible to be a Heinlein fan and have just about any political philosophy, and certainly his sales show that.
AGplusone: If it’s that vague, I think sometimes I agree with that and sometimes not …
ddavitt: I’d agree with that.
ddavitt: He wrote from more perspectives than most people realise
AGplusone: I cannot put a label on RAH, any time, period.
ddavitt: They see what they want and ignore the rest
AGplusone: I just think he was a thinking voter.
joelrmpls: I’m blanking on the name of the critical book about RAH by an avowed Marxist, but it was generally favorable.
DenvToday: David, go to www.lp.org It states it all succinctly.
OakMan 7111: Jane – that’s very very true
joelrmpls: “America As Science Fiction”?
AGplusone: I will, thanks, Ron
DenvToday: yvw
ddavitt: I remember Jim Gifford mentions that on his FAQ
fgherman: The Bruce Franklin book
joelrmpls: That’s the one.
AGplusone: H. Bruce Franklin
fgherman: “Heinlien as America”
Thundertek: That was America as Science Fiction by Bruce Franklin
joelrmpls: I don’t by Franklin’s Marxism, but I thought he had a lot of good stuff to say. Much more impressed with it than I was with Panshin’s.
AGplusone: close enough
OakMan 7111: I wonder how many times some of us have been told that we are “real” Heinlein people because we don’t believe what they believe that he believed
ddavitt: I still haven;t read the Panshin..must get one
OakMan 7111: aren’t ‘real’
DenvToday: I have the new Heinlein Guide on order. Has anybody read it yet?
ddavitt: ?What’s that?
AGplusone: like the miner from Moon said, ‘tousands and ‘tousands of times
OakMan 7111: I have copy # 12
AGplusone: Whose? Giffords?
OakMan 7111:
joelrmpls: It’s worth reading, particularly if you’ve got Giff’s book handy so you can know where Panshin is factually wrong, rather than just misguided.
AGplusone: I think so too.
ddavitt: RAH:ARC you mean? Oh yes, i have one. use it a lot
AGplusone: I have one as well …
joelrmpls: Giff’s a friend, so I’m not unprejudiced, but I think it’s a terrific, focussed book.
AGplusone: I’d agree. Worthwhile
OakMan 7111: Although Jim’s occasionally opinionated, too
fgherman: But in a good way
ddavitt: I think it was just what was needed as a platform of facts rather than opinions.
Thundertek: !
ddavitt: We can provide plenty of opinions…
OakMan 7111: LOL
AGplusone: besides he quoted me in a footnote …
joelrmpls: Very opinionated. But the book is on very, very sound factual grounds, particullarly where it takes issue with RAH on what Starship Troopers says.
joelrmpls: …and stuff like that.
ddavitt: He included something I told him about too…
DenvToday: I’ve been waiting for a month. Amazon.com must have it on backorder.
joelrmpls: My online speling suks.
AGplusone: I might not agree with you on that Joel. I wanted to write a rebuttal to Giff when I read that essay the first time
DenvToday: My speeling iz gud.
OakMan 7111: Well, I talked him into not leaving the group when Prince was doing his thing – toold him about ignore – does that count?
joelrmpls: My offline spelling isn’t so hot, either. But I’ve got spellcheckers and proofreadeers for that.
joelrmpls: I’d be interested in seeing a rebuttal. I thought Giff made an airtight case, and I started off disagreeing with him.
ddavitt: We might have it as a chat topic
AGplusone: maybe some day I will … in my spare time
DavidWrightSr: We don’t worry about spelling here. I generally go through and correct much of the spelling errors before I post the log.
DavidWrightSr: Although, sometimes I don’t have the time to do so 🙂
AGplusone: One of the nicest things David ever did for me was to take over that job!!!!!
joelrmpls: That wuld be finee with meee.
ddavitt: Hi Dave; wondered if you were here for real
ddavitt: OK, I’m going to say let’s start
OakMan 7111: Dave – can the Society link to your site?
OakMan 7111: oops – later
ddavitt: I will host until Will gets here if that suits
DavidWrightSr: I think I’m real 🙂
ddavitt: I hope so!
joelrmpls: Sure. How long are we going to go tonight?
joelrmpls: Just curious; I’m easy.
ddavitt: We’re honoured to have Joel as our guest tonight for as long as he likes
joelrmpls: Okay, bye. 🙂
ddavitt: Usually i crack at 11.00
ddavitt: four month old baby; short on sleep
AGplusone: yes. http://members.aol.com/agplusone/rahmain.htm
AGplusone: which Dave …
ddavitt: But it can go on till we say stop.
ddavitt: usually 2 to 3 hours Joel
joelrmpls: Sure.
NitroPress has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Speak of the devil
AGplusone: usually til midnight ET, but we defer to our guest’s stamina
ddavitt: Just talking about you Jim:-)
AGplusone: Hi, Jim
OakMan 7111: Hi Satan!
fgherman: Jim!
ddavitt: (censor that log dave!)
joelrmpls: Hi, guy.
joelrmpls: The spirit is willing, but the kidneys are weak.
RMLWJ1 has entered the room.
RMLWJ1: Good evening.
joelrmpls: Evening.
ddavitt: Hi; just about to start
OakMan 7111: Hi RML
AGplusone: we take 10 minute breaks every hour
ddavitt: Anyone unfamiliar with the proceedure on a guest night?
OakMan 7111: Or keep an empty milk bottle handy
NitroPress: Y’know, it’s hell climbing out of that pit of darkness.
joelrmpls: “Honey, we got an extra Depends around?”
RMLWJ1: lol
fgherman: Just one of Rachel’s pull-ups
NitroPress: I was stuck in traffic the whole way – lawyers, senators, governors, NFL players…
joelrmpls: I don’t think it’ll fit.
DavidWrightSr: I told Joel when I invited him that we used a protocol with guest that kept chaos somewhat at bay. Can someone explain the protocol?
AGplusone: “Sam”?
OakMan 7111: Did you see Panshin on you way up?
Thundertek: !
ddavitt: Jim if I nag you to go to black on white is that Ok?
AGplusone: !
NitroPress: No, he was on the way down.
OakMan 7111: 🙂
NitroPress: Better?
ddavitt: great!
ddavitt: !OK, we’re off..
NitroPress: I’ve been off all day.
AGplusone: jane is moderator and calls on questions, indicated “?” and statements “!” except for Joel who gets to butt in anytime
ddavitt: Anyone got a question?
NitroPress: Which he will.
joelrmpls: “It’s good to be king.”
geeairmoe2: ?
ddavitt: GA Will
DavidWrightSr: It’s too bad that I can’t keep the original colors and fonts in the archive logs, but you wouldn’t believe that amount of extra space that it takes. Jon you would know.
NitroPress: ?
OakMan 7111: yep
geeairmoe2: My usual first question: Which question are you asked most often?
ddavitt: I’ll put you in the queue Jim
OakMan 7111: but remember we’ve got oodles of space on the society’s site
joelrmpls: “Would you please get your hand off my thigh before I call a cop?”
AGplusone: [I’ll keep the queue if you wish me to, Jane]
joelrmpls: It’s usually, alas, “Is Karl really dead?”
ddavitt: Sure, thanks
ddavitt: We did that one…
joelrmpls: Although I went through a whole signing/chat thing without getting that once, at the beginning of the year.
AGplusone: next is Gifford … queue vacant after that, but why don’t we let Joel make an opening statement first, if he wishes?
NitroPress: Well, I was lined up to ask it, but…
joelrmpls: After that, it’s when the next [enter name of series I’m not actively working on] book coming out?”
ddavitt: I’m biting my tongue…
joelrmpls: Go ahead, Giff. Please.
NitroPress: Is Kami Dan’Shir going to visit Metzada?
joelrmpls: I hadn’t really planned on an opening statement. “Mr. Chairman, upon advice of my counsel…”
joelrmpls: Yeah, sure.
ddavitt: ?
AGplusone: [“defendant waives opening statement … ” ??]
AGplusone: Jane go ahead (GA)
joelrmpls: Actually, he’d be more out of place there than he is in his own life. Which is a hard thing to find.
NitroPress: That’s better than waving what he did last time.
ddavitt: Why did they go to Metzada? To feel safe because no one else would want it?
OakMan 7111: ?
ddavitt: Why commit to such a life?
joelrmpls: They got stuck there; the back story involves basically a tradeoff between exile and extermination.
ddavitt: Did i miss that?
joelrmpls: It’s not explicitly said, although I think I came awfully close.
NitroPress: You did.
ddavitt: But they could move now
AGplusone: GA Jon … when Joel’s finished answering Jane which he may indicate by typing /ga
joelrmpls: Where?
ddavitt: Anywhere; a nice planet with grass
joelrmpls: Good real estate is rare in the Thousand Worlds.
ddavitt: They have marketable skills
NitroPress: Cheech and Chong got it already.
ddavitt: Advanced medical know how
OakMan 7111: Joel – where do you get your military knowledge from?
joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely, they have other marketable skills. but…
fgherman: Schenectady
OakMan 7111: oops
joelrmpls: Reading, reading, and talking and a lot of listening to folks what got shot at for real.
AGplusone: ?
ddavitt: They are whores…to keep their children fed
joelrmpls: Absolutely.
ddavitt: But I feel there should be an alternative…
OakMan 7111: including knowledge specifically of Patton?
AGplusone: queue is Jon, then me … then vacant
joelrmpls: Well, sure — it’s difficult for me to think about nutcase military geniuses without thinking about Patton.
OakMan 7111: how so?
ddavitt: Custer?
joelrmpls: Much less so. And, well, Patton wasn’t only larger than life, he knew he was going to be larger than life.
joelrmpls: At age 18, he started making journal notes for his biographer.
ddavitt: L M Montgmery did that very early; 11 I think
joelrmpls: “It will interest you to know that it was during this month that I first studied…” and so forth.
joelrmpls: Yeah, but Monty was overrated; Patton was the real deal.
OakMan 7111: One of the soldier who died at little big horn was a “Patton”
RMLWJ1: Agreed
ddavitt: She wrote children’s books Joel
RMLWJ1: Look at what happened at Market Garden
joelrmpls: Ooops. Different Monty. And yeah, the one time Monty tries to play Patton, he blows it.
AGplusone: but he did okay in Africa … could be argued it was a different Monty
AGplusone: GMTA
ddavitt: Ok, Jon do you want to ask your question?
RMLWJ1: Rommel was on the short end of the stick for supplies, too.
OakMan 7111: Actually, I have been –
ddavitt: She wrote Anne of Green gables you philistines!:-)
joelrmpls: He did very well in Africa, against very good opposition. But his career in Europe was a disaster, and would have been worse if Patton, in particular, hadn’t been handy.
AGplusone: I think I’m next Jane
NitroPress: Urgh urgh grunt ook.
OakMan 7111: And Rommel forced to kill himself
ddavitt: Didn’t realise this was Jon’s go…out of control already
OakMan 7111: who was Patton’s only equal, imho
NitroPress: Trying to kill your CiC can have a negative effect on your military career.
ddavitt: Where’s my big stick?
joelrmpls: …. particularly if you miss.
NitroPress: Yep.
OakMan 7111: especially then
DenvToday: The reason Montgomery was successful in N. Africa was because they had broken the German military code. Enigma.
RMLWJ1: that helped.
joelrmpls: That’s true, but it doesn’t explain why he was a disaster in France.
NitroPress: The cooking.
OakMan 7111: And of course, for him, they took the chance that the germans would realise it was broken
DenvToday: lol
RMLWJ1: But Rommel tended to broadcast in the clear, you had to have his maps to figure out what he wanted you to do.
NitroPress: But if you knew where his materiel was being delivered, etc…
ddavitt: Ok, AG do you want to ask?
AGplusone: Joel: why did you let Karl characterize the response to the night bow attack of the siege commander in Silver Crown, “conservative”? A conservative would have put out pickets and waited until morning, wouldn’t he?
joelrmpls: “Our invincible Nazi codes broken by a bunch of Jews? Don’t be ridiculous.”
OakMan 7111: Patton once claimed that all great battles were fought where four campaign maps intersected
OakMan 7111: in the rain
OakMan 7111: at night
NitroPress: with mustard
joelrmpls: To answer your question, damned if I remember.
AGplusone: okay, that’s fair
ddavitt: That’s not good enough Joel!
ddavitt: We expect you to know everything!
AGplusone: and my only critique of the tactics there employed
joelrmpls: No, it’s not good enough, but it’s been a while since I wrote that, and while I worked very, very hard on the logistics of it, it’s been a while.
OakMan 7111: do you work from maps?
AGplusone: Was fun analysizing the logistics too
DavidWrightSr: !
AGplusone: sp?
ddavitt: No rebuttal yet from Bill Williams
joelrmpls: I used to, but I gave it up. Just wasn’t very good at it.
AGplusone: Dave Wright is first in the queue
ddavitt: ga dave
NitroPress has left the room.
joelrmpls: I’ve got vague pictures in my head, but it’s usually more convenient to move things around a bit than be stuck with a real map. Which is why I did things differently with D’shai.
NitroPress has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: ?
joelrmpls: Sorry, Giff; was it something I said? 🙂
NitroPress: Stupid AOL software.
ddavitt: dave? did you have a query?
AGplusone: queue is Dave who is UP, and Jon following …
DavidWrightSr: I was just going to say, it must be a lot like writing a program. If you don’t comment on the code itself, it’s awful hard to remember just what you were thinking at the time. And a writer has to let the writing speak for itself.
ddavitt: ?
AGplusone: Okay, GA Jon
joelrmpls: Which is why I do comment out the code now — all sorts of asides in the working document.
NitroPress: Save it for the guy who writes YOUR reader’s companion.
AGplusone: [queue is Jon, then Jane]
OakMan 7111: or end up in never ending debates with his critics over what he meant
fgherman: Volunteering, Jim?
NitroPress: Nah.
NitroPress: (Nah to OakMan.)
ddavitt: Been there, done that, designed the T shirt?
ddavitt: 🙂
NitroPress: I volunteered once, sarge…
NitroPress: wearing the T-shirt.
OakMan 7111:
NitroPress: Good luck charm for, uh, you know…
ddavitt: OK, ga Jon
OakMan 7111: wants one without the word, “apprentice”
NitroPress: I’ll send you an eraser.
OakMan 7111: Joel – did you do a lot of AD&D?
OakMan 7111: What do I want Ahnold for?
NitroPress: I think that’s spelled “LDS”.
joelrmpls: Very, very, very little. I’ve gamed maybe three, four times, total.
joelrmpls: Felicia’s the gamer in the family.
AGplusone: Jane next in queue
AGplusone: GA Jane
ddavitt: healing draughts; cheating?
geeairmoe2: ?
ddavitt: Or a necessary ingredient in D and D
joelrmpls: Both, maybe?
ddavitt: Without them, no series, they’d all be dead
OakMan 7111: Can’t let Player Characters die
joelrmpls: I thought things were grim and uncomfortable enough even with them.
ddavitt: But it does let them take a lot of risks?
joelrmpls: Well, some, certainly.
ddavitt: What about jason?
AGplusone: [Will next in queue … vacant after that, type “/ga” when you’re finished asking related questions Jane, please]
OakMan 7111: That’s why Bones is carrying Karl’s Kah around in his head
ddavitt: Poor jason ( the original one I mean)
joelrmpls: But it didn’t do Karl a lot of good.
ddavitt: It got him to that point
NitroPress: ?
ddavitt: ga/
joelrmpls: Well, yeah — but remember, they were just improvising at that point, and hadn’t had the experience or the time to think things through.
AGplusone: GA, Will … Jim is next
geeairmoe2: How intricately do you plot a story before you begin writing it?
joelrmpls: And, besides, it was a lot of fun to kill off one of the three major characters in an early chapter.
OakMan 7111: lol
ddavitt: heh..
joelrmpls: It varies. The D’Shai books are fairly tightly plotted; the Guardians books vary widely.
ddavitt: !
geeairmoe2: And how often does the story take over?
OakMan 7111: can you definew those terms a little bit?
joelrmpls: I need to know the beginning and the end, but I’m often wrong about the end.
ddavitt: Is that because of the genre? detectives need planning?
joelrmpls: Rarely. Sometimes, but rarely.
AGplusone: “/ga”
geeairmoe2: ga
AGplusone: ? Go ahead JIm
joelrmpls: I would have said that’s exactly why, but I just wrote a mainstreamish murder mystery in about six weeks, and I didn’t have it more than loosely plotted before I started.
AGplusone: [queue is Jane then me, then vacant]
NitroPress: Did they ever fix the Ehvenor cover, or did they just emboss it?
ddavitt: looking forward to that one.
joelrmpls: They just embossed it. It’s horrible.
NitroPress: Heh. /ga
AGplusone: Jane GA
ddavitt: Me?
ddavitt: OK
ddavitt: Will Deighton have any further role?
joelrmpls: Short answer is yes.
ddavitt: He seems to have slid into the background
ddavitt: OK
ddavitt: /ga
AGplusone: Joel: do you find the characters writing the story themselves like Elmore Leonard said his do?
joelrmpls: Longer: I’ve got to clean up some of the internal cycles, and get the early books back in print before I can continue that part of the story.
AGplusone: once they develop?
joelrmpls: And, yes, but generally only for a short while at a time.
ddavitt: /
ddavitt: I mean ?
joelrmpls: That said, Ellegon and Walter can chatter back and forth for a zillion pages without me having to do anything.
AGplusone: okay, thanks … queue vacant, anyone?
AGplusone: Jane GA
ddavitt: You changed the POV a lot; to keep it fresh?
joelrmpls: In part.
ddavitt: No one to walter to jason to ..
ddavitt: Walter is…different. But not you?
joelrmpls: In part, I did the Walter books because I wanted to try something more intimate and personal.
ddavitt: Are any of them you ?
joelrmpls: There’s some of me in Walter, and vice versa; but a lot of his background is a negative of mine. Great parents, for example.
ddavitt: Or is that a not telling question?
joelrmpls: Oh, I think there’s some of me in most of my protagonists.
AGplusone: [Ellegon is a telepathic dragon for anyone who hasn’t read the books in Guardians of the Flame series. Walter is the hero’s cynically sidekick]
joelrmpls: Nah. I’ll tell almost anything. Not sure if it’s a strength or a weakness.
RMLWJ1 has left the room.
fgherman: ?
ddavitt: GA
NitroPress: (gotta run; the twins are taking over the household and Audrey can’t hold ’em without reinforcements. See ya around, JR & everybody. Can’t wait for Sunday…)
AGplusone: Ms. Herman is UP, thanks for coming JIm
ddavitt: Night Jim
joelrmpls: Kami Dan’Shir and his sister are in large part me and my oldest sister, for example.
fgherman: What book would you most like to write, if money were not an issue?
joelrmpls: “I liked the part where I died,” she said, when she read the first book.
fgherman: Bye Jim
joelrmpls: Mark Twain in King Arthur’s Court
ddavitt: That was sad.
OakMan 7111: bye Jim
NitroPress has left the room.
AGplusone:correct title …
AGplusone: almost
ddavitt: ?
AGplusone: I miscited the title of A Conneticut Yankee in KA’s Court
AGplusone: in my post
fgherman: Still working on it in your background time?
joelrmpls: Nah. Too much other stuff to do. There’s these kids, and this work, and this wife and the girlf — ooops.
AGplusone: [it would be wonderful fun to read that[
joelrmpls: Only if I did it right. Otherwise, it would suck bigtime.
ddavitt: You seem to have moved toward detectives; big difference in genre. I don’t think many sf writers do mysteries. J D Robb maybe but they’re romances too. What attracts you to that genre?
joelrmpls: That would be a major highwire act.
AGplusone: [You’ll be pleased to know that the UPS folk just delivered a used hardbound copy of the first four of Guardians of the Flame … day late and a dollar short]
joelrmpls: Hmmm… I dunno. I read it a lot, and more and more I’ve become more and more interested in character/sense of place stuff, and detective fiction is ideal for that, regardless of the genre.
ddavitt: Read quick for saturday
AGplusone: [I will, I will]
ddavitt: I read that mostly nowadays; who do you enjoy?
AGplusone: [anyone else want in queue?]
joelrmpls: Oh, Chandler, Hammet, Robert B. Parker, Elmore Leonard, WEB Griffin, Donald Hamilton.
joelrmpls: You know: the obvious. 🙂
ddavitt: Urghh…different sub genres
AGplusone: Not a clinker in the bunch
ddavitt: I’ve not read any of those
geeairmoe2: ?
ddavitt: And I own nearly a thousand detectives
joelrmpls: Ed McBain.
AGplusone: Will’s up. GA
ddavitt: Ga Will
OakMan 7111: ?
geeairmoe2: How much is writing a series a constraint? I mean, how conscious do you have to be about what your wrote two backs back?
joelrmpls: Too damn much. The longer a series gets, the longer a train of history I’ve got to pull along behind me.
AGplusone: [queue is Jon, then … use “?” for a question, “!” for a statement, please]
geeairmoe2: Do you have a “bible” for easy reference?
ddavitt: Or you get nit picked…we know all about that:-)
joelrmpls: On the other hand, there’s usually some goodies on the train I can reach back and grab. And no, I don’t have a bible. Every time I start a Guardians book, I have to plow through at least the last few.
ddavitt: !Sorry
AGplusone: :::::waving:::::
geeairmoe2: /ga
joelrmpls: I find that my readers aren’t much on the nits. Which is fine with me.
AGplusone:
AGplusone: Jon’s up
joelrmpls: Very different experience than, say, Steve Brust gets — the minutiae of Dragearan life fascinate a lot of his readers.
OakMan 7111: Joel – have your books ever been taped?
joelrmpls: Nope.
joelrmpls: At least: not that I know of or have been paid for. 🙂
OakMan 7111: too bad I think they’d read well
ddavitt: ?
joelrmpls: I hope so; been working on that, more and more, over the years. Want them to be readaloudable.
AGplusone: Jane? GA
OakMan 7111: (Luckily, Jim is gone or he’d start telling me I had lousy taste)
ddavitt: i spot 2 common themes with heinlein; slavery and fencing. Any more?
ddavitt: Was he an influence at all?
joelrmpls: The most important one: brutal necessity.
fgherman: Sexy women
joelrmpls: And yeah, very much an influence.
ddavitt: 🙂
OakMan 7111: jokes
ddavitt: If you don’t mind me saying..
joelrmpls: On big and small stuff, from the sorts of things I write about to the way I use semicolons.
ddavitt: Ties was like an inverted Citizen of Galaxy
AGplusone: !
joelrmpls: Very much so.
ddavitt: Baslim was evil..
ddavitt: etc
ddavitt: ga AG
OakMan 7111: fascinating concept
joelrmpls: That, and Oliver Twist, were the obvious parents of it. And yeah, after reading Citizen a couple of hundred times, I started wondering, “what if Thorby had ended up with somebody who was a real low-life, instead of a pretend one?”
AGplusone: An example: first chapter of The Heir Apparent, begins with a quote about the ruler who doesn’t want to rule …
ddavitt: I saw COTG as Kim
ddavitt: Had you read that?
ddavitt: Sorry AG
AGplusone: ‘s ok
joelrmpls: Many, many years ago, but I don’t feel the influence in Citizen. Could be wrong, though.
AGplusone: queue is empty …
ddavitt: I’ll discuss it but it would take a while 🙂
ddavitt: Another time
joelrmpls: ok
DavidWrightSr: !
AGplusone: Got six minutes to first break, Dave is UP
OakMan 7111: I always thought of Citizen as the Jungle Book
DavidWrightSr: My comment was it might be a good time for a break
AGplusone: LOL …
ddavitt: “A motion to adjourn is always in order’ Tunnel
OakMan 7111: but last time I said that Jane told me I was crazy
AGplusone: Your pleasure Jane …
joelrmpls: I’m easy.
ddavitt: What an offer
AGplusone: Be back at 5 past the hour?
joelrmpls: Ok.
ddavitt: Sure
AGplusone: meanwhile protocol suspended, open chat
ddavitt: Go slurp, gobble, or whatever…
joelrmpls:
AGplusone: “afk” means you’ve gone to ‘water the cat’ Joel
Thundertek: afk
AGplusone: afk
geeairmoe2: perhaps check out http://www.winternet.com/~joelr/ for those who haven’t yet.
ddavitt: I did an article on Kipling/Heinlein for the Heinlein Journal Joel and i looked at the links there. seemed quite a few.
ddavitt: I have that bookmarked Will
DavidWrightSr: Reminder to everyone. If there is anything you want edited out of the log, IM me or E-mail me immediately after the chat, otherwise WYSIWYG 🙂
joelrmpls: Or just http://www.ellegon.com
AGplusone: back Joel: wife just said “thank god they changed the name” … of course, she says she might have been more interesting if born in Pig’s Landing
joelrmpls: I based Ehvenor on St. Paul. Crazy town — take three consecutive right turns and you might end up next Thursday.
ddavitt: Lost me david
fgherman: Even the governor agrees with that
DavidWrightSr: Me?
joelrmpls: St. Paul MN’s original name was “Pig’s Eye Landing.”
ddavitt: Ag but I think I get it now
AGplusone: early in Log, Jane. Joel asked me last week if my wife, who was born there, knew what the original name of St. Paul, Minnesota was
ddavitt: Thanks.
OakMan 7111: I like their second floor pedestrian-way that goes all over downtown
joelrmpls: A bunchy of twisty little passages, all different.
fgherman: The skyways or the “gerbil-tubes”
AGplusone: They were still building the circle freeway around the town last time I was there …
OakMan 7111: I think I mean the gerbil-tubes
OakMan 7111: another step towards an arcology
AGplusone: huh? “arcology”
fgherman: In Winnipeg, where Joel was born, they don’t have skyways, they have tunnels
OakMan 7111: I’m probably speelink it wrong
OakMan 7111: Or maybe using it wrongly
joelrmpls: see http://www.arcosanti.org/arcosanti/faq_paol.html
AGplusone: keeps ’em warm in winter, eh?
ddavitt: Todos santos?
fgherman: A lot warmer
OakMan 7111: but I mean the kind of inclosed cities that Niven & Pournelle write about
ddavitt: GMTA
OakMan 7111: Exactly, jane
ddavitt: Would you have lived there?
OakMan 7111: I could walk in shirtsleeves from my hotel, to the business site where I was working to the stores to the museums and to the shops.
AGplusone: gmta=great minds think alike
ddavitt: seemed to need a different type of person; training for a spaceship i think they said
joelrmpls: Like living in a mall.
ddavitt: Yes; not everyone’s cup of tea
OakMan 7111: Todos Santos? Well, maybe –
AGplusone: or to live in the moon …
ddavitt: i panic if i can’t see a door out in those places after an hour or two
OakMan 7111: or on a generation ship
joelrmpls: Todos Santos felt like a condominium attached to a mall. I didn’t see the romance of it.
ddavitt: maybe i’m not astronaut material after all:-(
fgherman: The moon, sure. LA? Not a chance
OakMan 7111: I like Malls…I have been told its a sign of a mispent youth or permanent brain deterioration
ddavitt: I disliked the lack of privacy even with the benefit of safety
AGplusone: I can finally admit it, now that I’ve bought a copy of the newly reprinted Orphans of the Sky … I destroyed my xerox of it … couldn’t find a paperback for love or money in LA … LA will sprawl until it meets Fresno, first
ddavitt: cameras in your apartment …
ddavitt: Well, I took my own advice and staggered out of the librray will about 10 Heinlein’s today
OakMan 7111: I was struck by a line on one of the startreks. Wherein it was explained that most places you couldn’t let children run around unsupervised, as you could on the Enterprise – certain an Arc of sort.
ddavitt: I wanted to get them all but I thought they’d wonder why i was checking out two copies of the same book:-)
ddavitt: Maybe you can be too safe.
AGplusone: Has your publisher indicated any interest in reprinting the beginning of Guardians of the Flame at all, Joel?
ddavitt: Need to have a certain distrust
DavidWrightSr: Jane. I thought you were in charge of getting books into the library 🙂
ddavitt: 🙂
joelrmpls: We’re discussing reversion now.
OakMan 7111: can you be too safe, too rich, or too skinny?
ddavitt: Ask a famine victim
OakMan 7111: thats what Happened to Dr Jekyl
AGplusone: That would be nice! Want to go back to protocol, Joel, Jane?
AGplusone: eight past the hour
joelrmpls: I’m ready, but okay either way.
ddavitt: OK; anyone who hasn;t asked yet?
ddavitt: Don’t be shy.
AGplusone: Your pleasure glorious leaderess
ddavitt: Ok; my husband has asked me to ask
ddavitt: Why, in the Realms, don’t they try to invade us?
joelrmpls: Realms?
ddavitt: Is it common knowledge that we exist?
ddavitt: Hidden ways series
ddavitt: Sorry
joelrmpls: Oh.
joelrmpls: Well, the Hidden Ways are, well, hidden mostly. And I don’t think that we’d be a walkover.
ddavitt: But they sent the wolves
joelrmpls: The Old Ones are too tired, and the younger ones are too few.
joelrmpls: Special case — a raid, not an invasion.
AGplusone: [no queue, protocol suspended. Pop in when it looks like Joel is done answering … if it gets too confusing, I’ll direct traffic with jane’s permission]
joelrmpls: What they wanted was Orfindel, not a fight with the 101s Airborne.
ddavitt: You have our royal blessing 🙂
Thundertek: What house is your publisher?
ddavitt: Do they have legends of us?
AGplusone: ::::kneeling humbly as a subject::::
ddavitt: I could get used to this…
joelrmpls: Tor is doing all the new books, at present; although there are still some in print from Avon, whatever they’re calling themselves these days.
joelrmpls: As to the new thing, we don’t have a publisher yet.
ddavitt: you can’t just leave the Hidden ways like that with 4 gems left!
OakMan 7111: Your being a subject is predicated on what?
joelrmpls: And legends, it’s implied that they do. I’m not entirely sure.
ddavitt: Wishful thinking?
ddavitt: OK, thanks.
AGplusone: Question you don’t have to answer: how did you wind up with Eleanor Wood as agent?
ddavitt: I like the Norse legends.
joelrmpls: I intend to do another. There’s some interesting business/politics involving the Feist collaboration that would be too long and boring to go into.
AGplusone: same as RAH and Ginny
joelrmpls: I asked her.
AGplusone: wonderful!
fgherman: With some pushing from Mike Resnick
joelrmpls: After a lot of pushing from Resnick, who thought my previous agent wasn’t representing me as well as I needed.
joelrmpls: Eleanor’s wonderful.
fgherman: He was right
Major oz has entered the room.
AGplusone: [I’m a subject because Jane is the reigning host tonight, vice Zim, vice Malmud, speaking of the devil]
joelrmpls: Which is why my older daugther is Judith Eleanor Rosenberg.
ddavitt: Hi Oz
Thundertek: Attention on Deck!
fgherman: Hello Oz
Major oz: ….whew, what a climb……
joelrmpls: I paid forward, and hooked Lois Bujold and Bill Forstchen up with Eleanor.
fgherman: And Skippy
AGplusone: who Skippy?
joelrmpls: Yeah, and Chris “Skippy” Claremont.
ddavitt: My mother is Judith, my daughter is Eleanor…
ddavitt: I may sue.
geeairmoe2: The Forstchen who wrote the book with Newt?
ddavitt: (joke; J K Rowling )
Major oz: Are we in a “break” situation?
joelrmpls: That’s the one. Old friend of mine.
OakMan 7111: Another of Mr. Williams’s favorite people
joelrmpls: No, this is about as structured as it gets, apparently.
ddavitt: Yes and no
OakMan 7111: Hi Oz
AGplusone: nope, trying it without protocol with Joel’s permission
joelrmpls: I’m fine with it.
AGplusone: it’s going nicely Oz
ddavitt: Do you have a question Oz?
ddavitt: we’re enjoying ourselves and keep forgetting to be polite and patient
AGplusone: sort of like we did with the Anderson’s after the first hour
Major oz: As Henry Fonda said in The Rounders: “Whatever’s OK with you tickles me plumb to death”.
joelrmpls: Poul’s a nice guy.
AGplusone: Very and so is Karen
joelrmpls: She’s nice, but she’s no guy.
AGplusone: a nice “guy”
joelrmpls: I like her a lot.
AGplusone: I got to meet them before the chat. They were out here for one of Karen’s Holmes meetings
joelrmpls: Don’t know how much longer we’re going to have Poul around, though. I haven’t heard any good news about his medical condition.
AGplusone: ummmm … they didn’t mention it …
joelrmpls: It’s been a rough couple of years. Lost Catherine and Sprague, Elsie Wolheim, and now Gordy.
joelrmpls: It’s been published in Locus that there’s a serious cancer problem. More than that, I dont’ know.
OakMan 7111: I’m reading Operation Luna these days. I kept reminding myself that “Ginny” isn’t really Ginny
AGplusone: Remind me, Jon. I’ve got a photo of them in front of a certain clubhouse that we might put up on THS site if you can find a place.
ddavitt: Joel; re Hero. I am bothered by the unfairness of it. Yes, I know life isn’t fair…but…why did Ari get a chance and Slepak didn’t? can’t say that they saw he had potential; it was just pull that saved him.
ddavitt: Doesn’t that invalidate the whole system?
AGplusone: all systems have old boy network or rhip …
joelrmpls: Yup, it was. And I read your comments on afh. But a) life’s unfair sometimes, and b) Tetsuo set him up to be killed, so he wasn’t exactly getting off easy.
joelrmpls: Or so it appeared.
ddavitt: But enough people knew he froze and got away with it to cause ripples
ddavitt: Slepak’s family might have something to say about it
joelrmpls: And if he hadn’t redeemed himself, he’d have been dead. Be interesting to see what, if anything, Slepak’s family said about it.
AGplusone: better set him up to be killed for that reason than for the reason Uriah got killed
ddavitt: Why dishonour/ Why not a job back home?
joelrmpls: But, sure, sometimes people get away with stuff. Nimitz once grounded a ship.
ddavitt: Other ways to serve than fighting.
joelrmpls: Dishonor? Pour encourager les autres.
AGplusone: YES
joelrmpls: I’m not saying I think it’s fair; I am saying that I think it’s at least possible it might work.
ddavitt: And why are the women the surgeons and the men the lower rank medicos? A sop to them because they’re grounded?
joelrmpls: Nah.
AGplusone: problem is: with that solution, you can’t prevent others from getting killed who don’t deserve it …
joelrmpls: It’s because you dont’ want to put all that training in the head of somebody who’se likely to get the head blown up.
OakMan 7111: women do better with fine motor control?
ddavitt: But is it like St; do all the men fight until dead or too old?
joelrmpls: Just as, a few hundred years ago, you don’t want to spend all that expensive training on somebody who is liable to die in childbirth.
ddavitt: Hmm…
AGplusone: unique point
joelrmpls: Too old is an interesting question — IDF reservists serve into their fifties.
joelrmpls: And not just senior folks — grunts.
AGplusone: which we’ve forgotten about
ddavitt: In Not For Glory they want to go out and die, not be retired
ddavitt: Even tho they are vital at home as trainers
joelrmpls: Some do, sure.
geeairmoe2: Changing gears: Enjoyed on your web site the op-ed pieces you did for the Star-Tribune. On Lucianne.com its referred to as the Red Star Tribune.
Major oz: Yes, they do, Oak — which is why they make better pilots.
joelrmpls: I know some old soldiers who clearly resented not being able — or allowed — to go out and do it anymore, even if they didn’t enjoy it at all.
joelrmpls: Bob Adams was one.
ddavitt: I can understand that
joelrmpls: Metzada, though, like the IDF has a plethora of folks who’ve been shot at who are available for training. Very different from the USArmy, which tends to quickly run out between major wars.
ddavitt: Why don’t the women fight?
AGplusone: It would depend on the morale of the overall army, wouldn’t it? During Vietnam after about ’66 I knew some old soldiers who retired as quickly as they could.
OakMan 7111: We were, until recently, a citizen soldiery
joelrmpls: Well, I guess for historical reasons — the IDF tried that early on, and it didn’t work.
joelrmpls: The men screwed up, on both sides.
OakMan 7111: most of the WWII soldier were far more interested in plowshares than swords
ddavitt: I think i just feel sorry for them never leaving the tunnels…
ddavitt: Or never getting the chance
ddavitt: They don’t even go along as back ups
joelrmpls: Arabs were less willing to surrender to women, the Palmach male soldiers were too willing to treat the women as other then expendable.
Major oz: Joel, what did you mean by: “…’run out’ between major wars”?
joelrmpls: Sure. I’m not, I hope, suggesting that Metzada is some sort of paradise.
ddavitt: Yet quite often in SF women fight and it’s portrayed as credible?
joelrmpls: Between major wars, we tend to promote blooded officers out of the field grades and/or retire them.
ddavitt: trying to think of a book; Forever war?
joelrmpls: Ditto, in practice, for enlisted ranks.
Major oz: OK — I see (and agree)
ddavitt: i think they’ve dug themselves into a literal hole.
joelrmpls: How many of the folks in, say, Desert Storm below the rank of Lt. Col had ever heard a shot fired in anger?
joelrmpls: Some, sure. But very, very few.
joelrmpls: And, historically, you want company level officers who have been shot at, functioned, and lived through it.
AGplusone: In ’62, for example, we still had blooded PltSgts and Captains … later, unless they’d been to Vietnam, we had few, if any
joelrmpls: Ditto for NCSs.
Major oz:
joelrmpls: NCOs, that is.
joelrmpls: I’m speaking entirely from research, not personal experience.
ddavitt: How will it all end? What is their goal? They seem to be living from day to day, relying on other people fighting and dying to keep them alive. it’s a very sad set up IMO.
joelrmpls: Reminds me of a cartoon in the Jerusalem Post the other day.
joelrmpls: “We’re about to celebrate the 3000th Pesach. 3000 years of misery and suffering and survival? And what did we get for it?”
AGplusone: Remember the Dorsai, or Andre Norton’s Star Guard?
joelrmpls: “We survived for the last three thousand years. Happy Passover.”
AGplusone: LOL
ddavitt:
Major oz: Is this the 3000th ?
OakMan 7111: Very few non-coms were not blooded by 74
joelrmpls: Just about, so I understand. I don’t remember #1 very well. 🙂
Major oz: Even I wasnt there
OakMan 7111: Damn, sorry, I’m getting tired and my typing is getting to be headsdown
joelrmpls: The other thing about Metzada is that I wanted to play with the strange historical artifact that the most important change in Jewish culture happened during the last century.
AGplusone: but there was blooding and blooding … a blooded shake and back is different than a Korean or WWII blooded
AGplusone: bake
ddavitt: I’m not quite sure what you mean Joel?
AGplusone: not that all the Korean ones were any good
joelrmpls: Sure, but somebody who has not fallen apart when getting shot at is a more proven quantity than somebody you know.
fgherman: Jews with guns
joelrmpls: About Jewish culture? This Jews With Guns thing.
AGplusone: true, there are degrees
ddavitt: Ah. OK
OakMan 7111: There’s the other half of it, too: Men who have shot and killed and not fallen apart.
joelrmpls: Did you hear what the typical Israeli response was when they heard about the LA Jewish day care center shooting almost two years ago?
OakMan 7111: these are the ones I wanted giving me orders
ddavitt: You extrapolated that there would still be grievances against German type worlds; how far ahead is it set?
AGplusone: Which is why the veteran requirement for OCS in Starship Troopers is genius
joelrmpls: Several hundred years, and yes, I do.
Major oz: HEAR, HEAR David
joelrmpls: I’m from a very tribal people, with very, very good memories.
OakMan 7111: Exactly – but try explaining that to a permanent civilian
Major oz: The only force I know of that does that today is the CG
joelrmpls: We’re still pissed off at the Amalekites, and we wiped them out how many millennia ago?
ddavitt: I’m English; we remember Agincourt; I can relate to it in a milder way.
OakMan 7111: LOL – and still cross the road to avoid Samaritans?
AGplusone: Yeah, we really ought to take that business about incest with Lot out of the Torah
fgherman: Well, Scientologists
Major oz: Then there is Irish Alzheimers — forget everything but the grudges.
OakMan 7111: I’m part Scot – we still remember kicking the Romans’ arse
OakMan 7111: with pride
ddavitt: But we’re all friends here, right
AGplusone: [or are those two other tribes? I forget.]
OakMan 7111: Sure we arrrrre, Lassie
Major oz: That is the beauty about US and Canada — nations of immigrants and every culture that exists.
joelrmpls: Read the Passover seder — remembering this stuff isn’t just optional.
ddavitt: good old melting pot
Major oz: Except Kebekkers, of course.
AGplusone: And we can even grin when a Campbell mets a MacDonald …
AGplusone: meets
ddavitt: treacherous campbells
joelrmpls: “Because a sheep…” oh, nevermind.
fgherman: LOL
AGplusone: Campbells stole cows, I beg your pardon.
ddavitt: I think a lot of this is over my head.
joelrmpls: But, getting back to Metzada, I’m not particularly in the predicting business, but in the credibility business.
AGplusone: … and wimmen
joelrmpls: I wanted to portray a nonegalitarian society, but one that was nonegalitarian in a different kind of way.
ddavitt: So..on a par with a karl question…did Shimon do it?
OakMan 7111: Everybody steals wimmen
ddavitt: I can’t read hero and see him as a potential traitor
joelrmpls: Hence the women doctors and the male medics.
joelrmpls: Short answer — I won’t give you the long one — is yes and no.
joelrmpls: He ran into something even he couldn’t stomach, and took the side way out.
joelrmpls: And he’s got a strong stomach.
AGplusone: Alex Hergensheimer is an odd choice for a hero …
AGplusone: which maybe is why RAH changed him to Alec Graham early on …
AGplusone: Hard to make a villain a hero
joelrmpls: Well, Shimon isn’t entirely predicatable, and he’s even less of a nice guy than Tetsuo is.
Major oz: But “Alec Graham” is so pastel.
Major oz: Alex Hergensheimer has panache
ddavitt: Why did you write them back to front?
ddavitt: again, hard to see Ari as a coward
joelrmpls: I dunno. It seemed to be a fun idea at the time.
ddavitt: Hmm…
joelrmpls: I wanted to look at the scenes referred to from a different point of view, consistent with what we saw later/first, if you catch my drift.
Major oz: Do any of your characters fall into that old cliche of “writing themselves”?
ddavitt: I was surprised that requiem was written before man Who Sold the moon; same thing I suppose
joelrmpls: Ellegon and Walter, mainly.
AGplusone: which gets me to a question: what is going on exactly in the Guardians of the Flame series, is it going to ever result in them being out from the clutch of the college professor/magician? I’m not finished reading, but I’m starting to think Job:ACOJ now
joelrmpls: Depends. I think I need a few books to work up to blowing everything up, but I’ve got to get the old ones back and in print before I do that.
AGplusone: 😀
ddavitt: And is Fairie all sealed up?
joelrmpls: Well, that rift is.
joelrmpls: But I wouldn’t want to suggest that there won’t be anymore interplay.
ddavitt: That was interesting because it’s a D and D world without the monsters
geeairmoe2: To whom could we apply … pressure … to get the old ones back in print?
joelrmpls: Things have been too magically quiet for awhile.
ddavitt: Yes.
joelrmpls: Eleanor’s handling it. It’ll be okay. Just take a while.
joelrmpls: Fairly complicated,and a light touch is required, for a number of reasons.
AGplusone: Ginny finally went to Stealth for Orphans
joelrmpls: The fact the publishing as a whole is in a tailspin isn’t helping, but I’m starting to see the first signs of that turning around.
joelrmpls: Stealth?
AGplusone: let me dig up an URL
joelrmpls: The notion of any Heinlein book not being in print is a clear sign that the backlist end of publishing is broken.
joelrmpls: There are *always* readers available for those books.
AGplusone: http://www.stealthpress.com
AGplusone: They are selling via internet
AGplusone: … for now
joelrmpls: Neat.
AGplusone: And published Orphans of the Sky which apparently no one else was interested in doing
joelrmpls: Which is bizarre.
AGplusone: either that, or talked Ginny into giving them a break
joelrmpls: Who has ever lost a dime publishing backlist Heinlein?
AGplusone: I thought it was bizarre too
joelrmpls: It’s money in the bank.
AGplusone: clarification: selling hardbound
AGplusone: not html pages
joelrmpls: Library editions alone should make lots of money.
joelrmpls: Just goes to show how sick the industry is, alas.
ddavitt: Is D’Shai modelled on a Chinese type society? It has a flavour of it with its strict protocol. The idea of being able to make a peasant into a lord is unusual for European societies I’d say but I am basing that on the general feel rather than a knowledge of Chinese history.
joelrmpls: Mind you, I’m putting aside how important the RAH books are to all of us.
AGplusone: I hope so … reference my gibe at myself about burning my xerox copy of Orphans recently now that I have a replacement, finally
ddavitt: i would have looked out for one for you david
joelrmpls: D’Shai is sort of intended to be Shogunate Japan, crossed with a bunch of stuff, and set in something sort of like England, geographically.
ddavitt: Always carry a wants list round with me
ddavitt: Kami is darn lucky to survive with his attitude!
AGplusone: my old paperback literally fell apart and crumbled into yellow dust
joelrmpls: The “FoulSmelling Bhorlani” are Koreans, although we haven’t seen any of them yet.
ddavitt: ‘beloved ruling class’…
ddavitt: He’s a lot of fun
joelrmpls: That was fun. I did a global search and replace when I figured out how well that worked.
ddavitt: Is raising kazuh supposed to be all magical or part yoga type stuff?
joelrmpls: A bit of both. It’s just an exaggeration of a truth: work hard at something, and you get a lot better at it.
ddavitt: Took me a while to decide if it was magic or not
AGplusone: [respectfully suggest Joel decide whether he wishes to go another hour, as we’re getting up on break, Jane]
joelrmpls: Well, there are some hints that it isn’t always magic, and in a lot of cases it doesn’t much matter.
ddavitt: The idea of people that highly specialised is interesting
ddavitt: Hadn’t realised the time!
joelrmpls: Me, neither. This is fun.
ddavitt: Nearly bed time for me…
AGplusone: Isn’t IT!
joelrmpls: But maybe we should save some fun for Saturday?
ddavitt: Well, the baby monitor is quiet
joelrmpls: What time on Sat, btw? I forget.
AGplusone: 5 PM EST
ddavitt: 5.00 pm EST
OakMan 7111: is that what you call your husband, jane?
ddavitt: Only when i’m not cross with him:-)
OakMan 7111: 🙂
ddavitt: No, he’s lounging in the front room, shouting out questions now and then
joelrmpls: Which is 4PM real time. 🙂
DavidWrightSr: BTW. I might not make it Saturday, so someone please save the log for me.
AGplusone: 2 PM God’s Country Time
ddavitt: We’re in an alternate universe and I never knew…
AGplusone: Joel, I’d like to send you an e mail later about a THS proposal, okay?
ddavitt: He was a dwarven schizophrenic fighter thief btw
AGplusone: The Heinlein Society
joelrmpls: Sure.
AGplusone: thank you
AGplusone: which e mail
ddavitt: OK, does anyone have any last questions?
ddavitt: Sure, i’ll do the log
AGplusone: any one on your page?
Thundertek: I must depart, but let me say it has been a pleasure seeing old friends and making new ones. Mr. Rosenberg it has been fun, you have won a new reader and I look forward to it. Thank you.
joelrmpls: Any of mine will do, except the bigfoot.com, which is dead.
ddavitt: Night Jimmy
AGplusone: See you, Jimmie!
AGplusone: Okay
fgherman: Good night
joelrmpls: Night, Jimmy. And thanks.
Major oz: ‘nite, Jimmy
OakMan 7111: gnite Jim
joelrmpls: is my favorite, these days.
joelrmpls: Vanity gets cheaper every year.
Thundertek: G’nite all – see you soon
Thundertek has left the room.
fgherman: And is finally working
AGplusone: capice … I’m one of those with a shiksa mother in case you’re wondering
ddavitt: Where did that name come from? Ellegon I mean.
joelrmpls: Seriously?
ddavitt: Just sounded right?
joelrmpls: If you read Tolkein, you’ll find a reference to “Ancalagon the Black”, as a dragon. I wanted a name that sounded similar, but wasn’t quite the same.
ddavitt: I do read him but i forget that…been a while.
joelrmpls: It’s just an in-passing thing.
ddavitt: I read hobbit at 10, LOTR at 11..but not recently
fgherman: Joel read it when he got involved with me
ddavitt: tried to read it to 5 year old but too hard for her
joelrmpls: It was required reading.
ddavitt: Should think so too:-)
fgherman: I wouldn’t let him read Bored of the Rings until he did
AGplusone: I didn’t read it until college … it was actually required in a seminar in Middle English poetry
ddavitt: David wanted to call our new baby Galadriel…
joelrmpls: Besides, you’ve got to read Tolkein to enjoy Bored of the Rings.
ddavitt: Seriuosly
ddavitt: I have that; harvard lampoon
joelrmpls: “We boggies are a hearty folk, we like to eat until we choke.”
ddavitt: Very funny in parts
joelrmpls: Pity stayed his hand. “It’s a pity I’ve run out of bullets,” he said.
ddavitt: Don’t know about the film…could be good. or not.
ddavitt: it was…irreverent 🙂
joelrmpls: Well, I’m hopeful, but skeptical. Big, big book for a movie.
AGplusone: That’s okay, you came close to killing me with Walter’s threat to teach ’em how to sing “Hi, ho, hi, ho …”
ddavitt: I remember when Silmarillion came out
ddavitt: Man in book shop spoke to me, eyes shining… said he’d been waiting for it for years
fgherman: 3 movies actually
joelrmpls: Well, that’s part of the fun of putting twentieth century college kids in that position.
AGplusone: It was delightful, wasn’t it?
joelrmpls: Yeah, but still an awfully big book for three movies.
ddavitt: Tolkein’s son was the priest at my brother’s school actually.
joelrmpls: Shogun worked, though, as a miniseries.
joelrmpls: Ah, Christopher?
joelrmpls: I’m vaguely related to him by marriage.
ddavitt: yep. Kind of strange
OakMan 7111: I felt it was “the Best of Shogun”
ddavitt: back pedal
ddavitt: I’m sure he was nice really
joelrmpls: Never met him.
joelrmpls: Very distant relationship — something like he married my mother’s fourth cousin.
ddavitt: Nor me; just know what my brother used to say
ddavitt: Small world
joelrmpls: And yeah, it did leave some stuff out, but I liked it.
ddavitt: Do i get the prize for most original comment?
joelrmpls: Not sure I would have been able to follow it if I hadn’t read the book. Dune miniseries the same way.
joelrmpls: Is there a prize? 🙂
OakMan 7111: I started yelling at my TV about halfway through the first episode
OakMan 7111: of Dune’
joelrmpls: I should think about turning in. Saturday, all?
ddavitt: Well, if there was i claim it 🙂
ddavitt: Thank you from all of us for coming both of you
fgherman: The only way we got through Dune – the movie, was by quoting the parody
Major oz: yes…thank you so much
ddavitt: I have been looking forward to this chat and I’ve enjoyed it a lot
OakMan 7111: Joel, its been great listening to you and meeting you, Felicia, you, too.
joelrmpls: Gnight, all. See you this weekend. And thank you all very much.
geeairmoe2: Thank you.
joelrmpls has left the room.
fgherman: It’s been a lot of fun
AGplusone: Thank you both, Joel and Felicia … see you Saturday!
ddavitt: I will head baby wards too then
fgherman has left the room.
OakMan 7111: bye Jane
DavidWrightSr: Thanks Felicia to you and Joel. See you Saturday
Major oz: ?
ddavitt: Thanks to all of you for being good 🙂
OakMan 7111: LOl
DavidWrightSr: Hey, they are faster than Jane in leaving 🙂
OakMan 7111: I’m too tired to be bad
ddavitt: I stay to see if you start trashing me:-)
AGplusone: hehehe
ddavitt: Then I sneak out
OakMan 7111: but I think Thursday may be a more on track group than Saturday
AGplusone: You did very well, Your Ladyship!
ddavitt: What happened to Will Reich?
Major oz: Bill is out of town, yes?
AGplusone: Yes, he’s visiting Ginny
OakMan 7111: Patterson?
ddavitt: BPRAL is yes
AGplusone: yes
OakMan 7111: I got an e-mail from him a couple of days ago from Fla
ddavitt: And on that; I go.
DavidWrightSr: NIght Jane
ddavitt: Thanks again, see yo saturday
OakMan 7111: Me, too, I think
AGplusone: nite Jane
ddavitt has left the room.
Major oz: ‘nite, Jane.good job
DavidWrightSr: Got it in before she left
AGplusone: You got it all, Dave
AGplusone: ?
OakMan 7111: I’ll try to be back on saturday – I enjoyed Joel
OakMan 7111: See you all, nite
AGplusone: See ya, Jon
OakMan 7111 has left the room.
AGplusone: G’nite all
Major oz: I must confess I haven’t read any of his stuff (I abhor fantasy). But I am trying to get into one of his “straight” SF books.
Major oz: nite, all
AGplusone: I’m getting fascinated with that too Oz
geeairmoe2: Nite, all.
DavidWrightSr: Night Oz
Major oz: may not make sat
geeairmoe2 has left the room.
Major oz has left the room.
AGplusone: Nite Ron
DavidWrightSr: I’ll have this log up late tomorrow night. I’m out of town tomorrow
AGplusone: ‘kay, thanks again Dave
DavidWrightSr: Yo welcome
DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed 11:15 P.M.
AGplusone: bye
AGplusone has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log
