Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 05-23-2002 9:00 P.M. EDT Discussing Topics & Miscelaneous

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 05-23-2002 9:00 P.M. EDT

Discussing Topics & Miscelaneous

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”


mertide has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Andy! How’s by you?

BPRAL22169: Did you get David Wright’s notice about the meeting tonight?

EBATNM: I’m OK. Yes, that is why I’m here. I wanted to hit the Glory Road Chat but forgot

Copycat669 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: That was last week, I believe — the week before, actually.

Copycat669: woo hoo!

Copycat669: I made it!

BPRAL22169: 9th and 11th I think.

BPRAL22169: Hi- who is Copycat669?

mertide: Hi all, I’m Carolyn

Copycat669: I am Tammy. Tam if your fingers are tired. I’m the reason we don’t have a topic tonite.

BPRAL22169: If you would like to see the chatlog, you can look it up on afh or I can send you URLs.

EBATNM: Howdy to you

BPRAL22169: Ok, Tammy. I will be happy to burden you with all the blame you can handle. And then add a bit more.

EBATNM: I can get the log from David Wright – I think

BPRAL22169: “It’s what I do,” he said modestly.

Copycat669: excellent, Bpral. πŸ™‚ so we were supposed to be discussing Time Enough for Love tonite.

mertide: Tammy, that sounds mysterious – do tell πŸ™‚

EBATNM: I’m lurking on afh now

BPRAL22169: How does it happen that you scotched the topic?

Copycat669: but i’m working on Number of the Beast and I’m just loving it.

Copycat669: well….they let me pick the book two weeks ago

BPRAL22169: Ah, I see.

Copycat669: we couldn’t decide between Time or Fear no Evil

BPRAL22169: How far are you into NOTB and what is it about it you like so much?

EBATNM: Doesn’t one scotch a topic by boiling it under a peat fire?

Copycat669: and I had no idea that it involved posting somehting to a newsgroup, which I have no way to access. So I dropped the ball.

Copycat669: πŸ˜‰

BPRAL22169: (Manfully ignoring Andy) You can always ask one of us to post something to the newsgroup.

Copycat669: Ok, the gang has just met the pterydactly flying things and blew it up and deety programmed Gay and they all fought over who’s gonna be captain.

BPRAL22169: Oh, that goes on throughout.

BPRAL22169: IIRC, that’s about a third of the way into the book, isn’t it?

EBATNM: by taking different single scotched topics one gets a blended scotch topic.

Copycat669: Is andy Ebatnm?

BPRAL22169: (*sigh*)

BPRAL22169: Yes.


DavidWrightSr: Well, I heard Reveille and Taps plenty of times, but I never heard “To Horse” or ‘Fix Bayonets” slava bogu!

BPRAL22169: Huh! Is that colloquial Russian for “word up!”?

Paradis402: Well, Robert was quite an expert in military history and lore.

DavidWrightSr: slava bogu?

TreetopAngelRN: I learned a long time ago NOT to use Reveille to wake my Dad up!

BPRAL22169: Yes – I make it “word of God”

BPRAL22169: You could use “recall.”

DavidWrightSr: Slava Bogu = Thanks to God, No Slovo is word Slava is literally Glory

BPRAL22169: Ah. Thanks.

ddavitt: This is why we need annotated heinlein editions

Copycat669: So….shall we just jump right in and tackle the controversial part? I think that HEinlein has created a less distasteful scenario for incest. I found it….well…oddly fascinating.

BPRAL22169: I thought etymologically “Slav” was derived from “slovo.” They are the people with words.

DavidWrightSr: I think that is one that RAH missed in TMIAH. He had a number of others

ddavitt: Are we doing TEFL then?

Paradis402: Yes

BPRAL22169: We are large; we contain multitudes.

Copycat669: by popular demand.

ddavitt: Maureen and LL didn’t bother me as much as the goings on in Sail

BPRAL22169: I don’t think Tam has read Sail yet.

Copycat669: i have to agree. Do you think I was ok with that because I have already read Sail?

ddavitt: By the time they slept together they were no longer mother and son in any meaningful way

BPRAL22169: I guess not.

Paradis402: Exactly.

ddavitt: Maureen didn’t know he was her son (then)

BPRAL22169: The incest in TEFL is a real tour de force.

Copycat669: I agree, Jane. I think that Ted is like another identity for Lazarus/Woodie

BPRAL22169: We are progressively “densensitized” to it over the course of hundreds of pages with technical incest, legal incest, and so forth.

Copycat669: And he lived such a long life, that his time as Woodrow would have really seemed like a “former” lifetime. Almost as though he were being reincarnated as a new person each time he changed his identity.

ddavitt: Contrast his memories of how he viewed her as a child; affection and a normal distant love. Now he’s sexually obsessed with her as a peer

Copycat669: Even in Sail, she speaks of him more like a little brother than a son.

BPRAL22169: That made a lot of sense to me — a man gets his picture of what a sex object is from his mother.

ddavitt: Do you think?

TreetopAngelRN: do they?

ddavitt: I don’t use my father as a model for my men

Copycat669: *shudders* I LOVE My mother in law, but I don’t want to think that my husband is hot for her through me. *shudder again*

mertide: Nor do I

TreetopAngelRN: I’m not touching that one Jane…

ddavitt: That I’m aware of that is

BPRAL22169: IIRC the father teaches how to do the relationship and the mother provides the image.

Paradis402: I think RAH was getting back at Alice D in TEFL.

BPRAL22169: I think the sex roles are reversed for women.

ddavitt: Sez who?:-)

Copycat669: who’s alice d?

ddavitt: Editor

BPRAL22169: I’m just quoting what I read.

ddavitt: But who said it?

DavidWrightSr: Editor of his juveniles at Scribners

BPRAL22169: RAH’s editor at Scribners

Copycat669: how is he getting back at Alice D through TEF?

ddavitt: Alice D said that about mothers?

ddavitt: She cut his juveniles to bits

BPRAL22169: Jane, I think it’s a truism of developmental psychology. You could get it from Ellis or even Branden.

Paradis402: She was a prude who nitpicked at John Thomases and Willys.

ddavitt: I’m still not sure.

mertide: It may well be a truism. I think it’s wrong though

ddavitt: Read Grumbles; Heinlein goes into detail about the feud he had with her

Copycat669: I do have a friend who gets hooked with verbally abusive men who remind me of her father. But my dad is a mouse while my husband is a pit bull.

ddavitt: I don’t care who said it; if I disagree, it’s wrong:-):-):-)

Copycat669: hehehe. and i REALLY want grumbles.

Paradis402: You will love it, Cat.

ddavitt: Try your library in the non fiction; that’s where our library has it

TreetopAngelRN: Charlie, the hubby, just shuddered at the thought of his mother being seen as a sex object

Deheden has entered the room.

ddavitt: In autobiographies

mertide: that’s the way I look at it Jane πŸ™‚

geeairmoe2: I saw it as a kind of re-birth theme, he has a “reunion” with his mother, and is reborn. Remember, at the beginning of TEFL, he’s trying to kill himself.

Copycat669: I am just rolling over some of the stuff he’s written about his shorts in Expanded.

Copycat669: Great point, WILL.

Copycat669: his Mother gives him renewed will to live.

Deheden: Good evening all.

ddavitt: Returning to his past did rejuvenate him

ddavitt: Hi there

Deheden: Hi Jane

Paradis402: Hi. Dee?

ddavitt: Your name is different?

TreetopAngelRN: That is a good way to look at it.

ddavitt: Dehede usually?

Deheden: Yes, I reinstalled AIM and they made me change it.

mertide: Of course not all mothers are like Maureen

Copycat669: well..he IS looking for something that he’s never done before. At that point, he’s never “done” his mother. HEHEHEHEH

BPRAL22169: Hi, Ron. Glad you made it.

ddavitt: I’ll add you to my list again

Paradis402: Dirty Dogs!

Deheden: Thanks Bill

Deheden: Gracias

BPRAL22169: That bit about rebirth brings up another point: that book is the end of the Future History; everything after that is a “new life.” The World as Myth.

ddavitt: But it builds on those earlier works, incorporates them

ddavitt: Moon and TEFL especially

BPRAL22169: Exactly: everybody in the WAM books is a creature of myth — a god — and that’s why the incest treatment is different in Sail than it is in TEFL.

EBATNM: the Oedipus and Electra myths are foundational to Western Civilization

ddavitt: But they’re the same people!

BPRAL22169: So — supposing you’re a Christian, you expect to become a creature of myth after you die, don’t you?

Copycat669: Which ones are WAM books?

ddavitt: world as myth starts with Number of Beast

ddavitt: then Cat then sail

Copycat669: I guess I should have guessed that…

BPRAL22169: The obvious ones are NOTB, CAT and To Sail Beyond the Sunset. I think Friday and Job also belong to the series.

Copycat669: YOu know what? I’ve bought Friday and lost her TWICE in the last month!!

BPRAL22169: She’s good at getting away.

ddavitt: But by it’s nature, it encompasses them all

ddavitt: its

DavidWrightSr: She is very elusive πŸ™‚

ddavitt: I get as confused reading that as I do cat

Copycat669: well, i like the idea of World as Myth regardless of my Christian philosophy. My husband, however, thinks I’m whacked.

ddavitt: I suddenly realised I haven’t the foggiest how we got where we are in the story

BPRAL22169: The two propositions are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . .

TreetopAngelRN: Mine doesn’t get it either.

ddavitt: If there is a god, multi universes shouldn’t faze him

Copycat669: well, i guess I’d never though of the concept of heaven as World as Myth, but after some meditation, I’ll decide on it. πŸ˜‰

BPRAL22169: Think about Job as telling us the nature of “heaven” in the multiverse.

ddavitt: What you expect..

BPRAL22169: And Hell, of course.

ddavitt: Ditto

BPRAL22169: By which Heinlein apparently means Texas.

Deheden: Actually there is a Christian theory about Eden that fits pretty good with WAM

AGplusone has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Yo, David.

ddavitt: we make our own heaven and hell..which says a lot about some people’s nasty minds

AGplusone: G’evening, all.

ddavitt: Hi david

Deheden: Hi, David

Paradis402: I once gave a copy of Job to a rabinnical scholar. he came back in tear – said he never read anything so inspiring.

ddavitt: What theory is that?

EBATNM: It’s really Neo-Platonism which is grafted into Christianity from Augustine

AGplusone: [New handle, Ron?]

geeairmoe2: Found some bugle call wave files at: http://www.mssc.edu/finaid/buglecalls.html

BPRAL22169: Andy, what “it” are you referring to?

ddavitt: blame aol


Deheden: That Eden is attainable. AIM made me add a letter to re-install

geeairmoe2: 1) bugle call one — “First Call”2) bugle call two — “Mail”3) bugle call three — “Retreat”4) bugle call four — “Reveille”5) bugle call five — “Taps”

BPRAL22169: I’m not too sure of that, Andy.

EBATNM: Hierarchies streching all the way to the Godhead.

BPRAL22169: But apparently, it’s not a hierarchy — it’s a plenum. all the worlds are coequal.

ddavitt: the council of ouroborus being one such?

Paradis402: Indeed inspiring.

EBATNM: streching? Boy, my fingers ain’t working tonight!

ddavitt: worlds are equal..but not everyone has an eraser

BPRAL22169: Interesting idea though — I may steal it. I’ve been outlining a book that would tie all the loose threads of the WAM series together.

ddavitt: fiction?

geeairmoe2: I can’t spell strecthing when my fingers ARE working.

EBATNM: But not on an equal basis – some have the ability to “grok” more better (CofO0 and thus are more potent

Copycat669: NO! don’t tie threads!! all you get are knots!

ddavitt: most don’t see the big picture…don’t know there is more than world

ddavitt: Knowing that puts you up a step

BPRAL22169: Yeah, fiction. We’ve puzzled before why some of the continua seem to have fixed timelines while others have changeable timelines and still others split off temporal bubbles. Maybe that resolves the question. How about it David W?

Copycat669: I was complaining about not knowing the reason for Betty’s divorce from her parents. And a friend who went to see Star Wars with me said that was what was wrong with SW. They tried to tie up the ends and just got knots

ddavitt: Being able to travel between is another, manipulating events is yet another

Copycat669: that ruined Highlander, too. All good stories have some creative mystery in them.

ddavitt: don’t like the new SW; no magic

AGplusone: [anyone see the final tie-up to X-files … urkkkk!]

TreetopAngelRN: Sounds interesting, Bill!

ddavitt: Yep; boring

ddavitt: But the season end of Buffy was great:-)

TreetopAngelRN: Nope, but I did see the last Buffy

BPRAL22169: I thought the architecture was overwhelmingbly beautiful — especially the parts they shot in Sicily.

ddavitt: Angel, not so great

ddavitt: Spike has a soul!!!

DavidWrightSr: Well, All timelines, (worlds), are figments of someone elses imagination and they make the rules, so some are changeable, others not and any variation that you want.

Copycat669: it’s cus SW #5 (this last one) is just tying up ends….Boba Fett, Anakin, Ani’s mom. etc…

ddavitt: I can’t forgive them jar jar

ddavitt: I’m not paying good money to see it

Copycat669: Talk about changeable worlds! Anyone watch the second Highlander movie? I thought I was going to vomit!

Copycat669: Jar jar isn’t that big of a deal in this one.

ddavitt: Can’t recall it but I did see it

DavidWrightSr: That’s the one they agreed to forget about isn’t it?

EBATNM: Job cycles back to UPofJH with Kols-wossname being “higher” than Jehovah

ddavitt: Bet that was a kick in the teeth for some

mertide: can worlds change after the author dies?

BPRAL22169: They’ve still got some (to my mind) objectionable racial stereotyping.

ddavitt: or are they closed off?

Copycat669: Anyway, I digress. I have reconciled myself to be OK with not knowing somethings. LIke if Manny lives or why Betty divorces her parents.

ddavitt: Manny living? Dooes that arise as a query?

Copycat669: yeah, david, it is. they just asked us all to forgive them.

ddavitt: Do you mean Mike?

EBATNM: Well, as the author is actually a figment of someone’s imagination who says someone has to die?

Copycat669: manny at the end of cat.

ddavitt: Don’t remember that ,puzzled>

BPRAL22169: Well, in half the worlds, he doesn’t, after all.

Copycat669: when he’s trying to save mike, they just leave him there dying.

EBATNM: In Stranger they all go somewhere and practice architecture

TreetopAngelRN: I think the stories go on, I am firmly entrenched in the WAM

ddavitt: Have to look at it

BPRAL22169: Ah, the enlightened ones!

TreetopAngelRN: You mean Richard, Tam!

ddavitt: Can’t remeber that bit

TreetopAngelRN: Not Manny.

ddavitt: Oh, well, in that case…yes he does live

Copycat669: I do, Elizabeth. Thank you! πŸ™‚

ddavitt: paradox; he has got Gretchen pregnant but he hasn’t yet so he has to stay alive to do it

EBATNM: In Cat the author (Heinlein) can’t write the ending or he would set the ending. By not doing so he allows (forces) the 50/50% outcome(s).

ddavitt: He’s safe

ddavitt: Sail clears it up

TreetopAngelRN: YW

DavidWrightSr: Dropped myself off

Copycat669: oh yeah. I still have to read sail and establish that. when i read sail, i didn’t know who they were.

BPRAL22169: I think we’ve got enough new people to repeat the admonition: don’t touch the ESC key while you’re in AIM

ddavitt: Not a good one to start with:-)

jilyd has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t have two computers logging in at same time either πŸ™‚

ddavitt: My finger is creeping toward it now, Bill. i’m just a rebel I guess

Copycat669: Ok. I know others like it, but I HATE the intermissions in Time.

BPRAL22169: Oh, Jane, you’re so predictable.

Copycat669: rebel jane

ddavitt: Come here and say that!

BPRAL22169: I rather liked the Secundus and Tertius episodes.

Paradis402: Git im Jane!

ddavitt: Hi jilyd

Deheden: Rebel Jane?? Where was she in 76??

TreetopAngelRN: LOL

ddavitt: On the side of the Angels

ddavitt: Fighting to keep our colony safe for our children

BPRAL22169: If I had to compare the overall structure to any single piece of music it would be — wait for it — Rimsky Korsakov’s “Scheherezade” with the returning motives.

jilyd: Hi, Jane. It’s Dee, if you don’t recognize the AIM name.


ddavitt: I didn’t, hi Dee

Copycat669: And I was SUPREMELY excited that my namesake is a sexy woman. Though my reall name is TAMMY and not Tamara.

mertide: The variant worlds where they die trying surely have as real an existence though, we see only the continuation in one of the worlds where they survive

ddavitt: Tamara is a pretty name

Paradis402: Also called Tammy.

EBATNM: have you looked at it as a Fugue?

BPRAL22169: That’s an interesting thought.

Copycat669: by las and lor. The first time they called her tammy i laughed out loud.

EBATNM: theme, answer, exposition, restatement

ddavitt: What would the implications be if we did?


ddavitt: Ah, OK

BPRAL22169: There’s really not a lot of “vertical” structure in the book.

jilyd: Sorry I missed the lead-in to this, R-K’s Sche. is just about my favorite piece of music of all. I used to have a piano transcription but tI lost it. πŸ™

ddavitt: Humph; they had a Jane in Number and killed her off ,sulk>

BPRAL22169: We were talking earlier about the bugle calls in TEFL and I pointed out the whole book had a musical structure of a rhapsody.

Copycat669: But she lives in Jake’s head. That was reminiscent of Fear No Evil.

ddavitt: or a dance..

BPRAL22169: RAH said that was an interesting idea but he didn’t have a specific musical structur ein mind.

TreetopAngelRN: and Elizabeth was a man at one point…

jilyd: Well, maybe I could claim Deety for Dee, but I hate being called Dee-Dee, and refuse to answer to it.

EBATNM: There’s a pun in there about Rhapsody in Bugle but I can’t get there

ddavitt: That happens in lots of the books funnily enough

BPRAL22169: though, ofcourse, a rhapsody isn’t a specific musical form.

Paradis402: I liked Libby better as Elizabeth.

jilyd: EBATNM, do I know you already, bu a different name?

BPRAL22169: (Ignoring andy)


Reilloc: Evening all.

DavidWrightSr: They dropped the casket over the Ozarks after they had retrieved what they could from the corpse, enough to rebuild his memories and personality

jilyd: Hi, LN.

ddavitt: I raised that very point on afh

AGplusone: Evenin’ L.C.

EBATNM: Hi, jilyd. The same

Copycat669: YAY! I was wondering how Andy got back to life.

AGplusone: LN ….

ddavitt: I decided Hilda was insanely jealous and nixed it

Reilloc: David…

Paradis402: Jane came back – on AFH, much to our pleasure.

mertide: πŸ™‚

Copycat669: afh?

EBATNM: Once a year I remember the chats are on Thursdays.

ddavitt: I am a reincarnation…that makes sense

Copycat669: oh…silly me. the alt news group. πŸ™‚

ddavitt: alt fan heinlein; where you need to be

Paradis402: Right, Cat.

AGplusone: Did you get instructions how to find it, Tam?

TreetopAngelRN: yes, Tam come to afh

ddavitt: How come you can’t get newsgroups on your reader?

Copycat669: I got it open thanks to Jane, but it’s WAY too confusing. πŸ™‚

AGplusone: You’re on AOL?

ddavitt: You found it and subscribed and everything?

Copycat669: but i can at least post next time to satisfy any responsibility to open the group. I did the google thing.

ddavitt: Have you got it set up to show you threads?

AGplusone: But are you on AOL?

Copycat669: it just opened up. like a bbpost. but there’s a lot of stuff in each thread. I’m not on AOL.

mertide: Once again I am so glad I’m not on AOL πŸ™‚

Copycat669: AOL is the devil.

EBATNM: BTW, who is Randy and why?

AGplusone: Okay, altho there’s a simple way on AOL.

BPRAL22169: Many of us ask ourselves the same question, andy.

ddavitt: Which Randy? There are a few

BPRAL22169: Hmmm. Andy – Randy?

Copycat669: EVIL TWIN!

jilyd has left the room.

ddavitt: If you mean Cryo Randy, he’s a poster from way back who pops in now again

BPRAL22169: I think we would have to call this one the good twin. Or at least the non-evil twin.

EBATNM: The “interesting” CryoRandy

ddavitt: and generally annoys people

AGplusone: Randy Jost, Randi the ‘feminist/ …. etc.

jilyd has entered the room.

ddavitt: He plays a one note tune

mkeith54 has entered the room.

jilyd: Lost & Found, I am.

ddavitt: Gosh, the room is full

BPRAL22169: YoDee you are?

AGplusone: Randy’s not a bad fellow if we could get him off his hobby horse of cryronics …

AGplusone: Once in a while he makes a very astute post

BPRAL22169: I don’t know — he doesn’t actually seem to have anything to say.

ddavitt: Can we sort out the next topic and a date?

BPRAL22169: I must have missed those.

AGplusone: Once in while he does

BPRAL22169: I don’t read most of the threads. We have an awful lot of chitchat and OT.

jilyd: Lost the connection, but I’m back. That has been happening a lot lately, and not just in chat.

geeairmoe2: A stopped clock . . .

ddavitt: I’m interested in doing IWFNE

AGplusone: Yes, Mike Sheffield needs to use the room next week, depending on the day, for a Blood Drives organizing chat.

ddavitt: two weeks time then?

AGplusone: I’d like doing IWFNE as well

TreetopAngelRN: IWFNE would be good.

jilyd: Me too.

mertide: sounds good

ddavitt: I’ll re read and post a lead off unless someone else wants to

BPRAL22169: We can always set Mike up with another room — the one we use for board meetings will be vacant.

Paradis402: Sounds good to me.

jilyd: AG, did you get info form Mike yet?

DavidWrightSr: I agree

ddavitt: two weeks is best; gives folks chance to read and post

geeairmoe2: Like the IWFNE idea.

AGplusone: True, but I think he’d like this one. Easier for those who know it.

TreetopAngelRN: agrees with Jane

ddavitt: Any particular bit of it or approach?

AGplusone: He doesn’t need Thursday

Deheden: IWFNE sounds good

DavidWrightSr: Do you want to lead Jane?

mkeith54: I agree with IWFNE

ddavitt: I will if there is no volunteer

AGplusone: [not yet, Dee … but he’s telephoning me tonight and I expect he was to ask a few questions about it]

mertide: the ending always makes me cry πŸ™‚

Copycat669: Let jane lead. When I’m more comfy with the afh, I’ll do it…;-) is that ok, JaneDear?

AGplusone: Nothing stopping Tam from e-mailing you a few inclusions, Jane.

Copycat669: The ending TICKED Me off!

ddavitt: Fine! But do please chip in on afh

geeairmoe2: That would be June 6 and 8.

ddavitt: OK

TreetopAngelRN: me too, Carolyn

BPRAL22169: I found something absolutely bizarre about that book.

Copycat669: what’s that?

ddavitt: The idea of body paint?

AGplusone: was=wants, Dee

mertide: glad I’m not the only sook, Elizabeth πŸ™‚

DavidWrightSr: Me too, Bill,

Reilloc: Something?

Copycat669: ooooh…i LOVE bodypaint

ddavitt: It would smear, get on the furniture

Copycat669: I volunteer any day!

BPRAL22169: What’s yours, David?

ddavitt: hell to get off, bad for the skin, lethal a la Goldfinger..

Paradis402: Aaaaaargh!

Copycat669: course I have BIG canvasses. WINK WINK

TreetopAngelRN: this body would take alot of paint

geeairmoe2: A Bond allusion in a Heinlein chat. I’m in heaven.

ddavitt: πŸ™‚

mkeith54: just use water based, cleans up easy and breaths

mertide: maybe oil based acrylics?

ddavitt: I grw up on those books You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

ddavitt: what was your problem then Bill?

BPRAL22169: Mine was: the story structure at the end seems very odd and counterintuitive, but I found it corresponds almost perfectly to the secondary interpretation (from the feet to the crown of the head) of the Adam Cadmon figure

Copycat669: What illustrations do ya get? (Oh heavens…i have to add yet ANOTHER variation of book to my list. my mother’s going to have a COW)

BPRAL22169: of the Kaballah.

BPRAL22169: Weird. Doesn’t prove anything, of course, but it’s certaily odd.

ddavitt: Bill, I wish I knew what you meant.

Paradis402: Nah!

Copycat669: hehehe. I like odd stuff. πŸ™‚

AGplusone: I had one. Someone walked with it … in Number of the Beast the hardbound and the trade paper have rather 60ish illustrations.

geeairmoe2: My trade paperback of TNoTB has illustrations. Deety was mondled on a Penthouse playmate.

BPRAL22169: Richard Powers. A very 60’s ish illustrator.

ddavitt: I only have the little paperbacks…

jilyd: Sounds good.

Copycat669: Well, my mom thinks it’s STUPID that I want both the edited and unedited versions of Stranger. (if you’ve read one book, you’ve read the other…blah blah blah)

ddavitt: Who was Adam Cadmon

TreetopAngelRN: mondled? fondled + Modeled?

ddavitt: No, you need both versions of all three books that are different

AGplusone: Be nice if we could talk Ginny into talking the publisher into reissuing that edition.

BPRAL22169: I was trying to find one of the esoteric books RAH had not used in his stories and tried Kabballah — unfortunately by the time I was in the second chapter, I recognized Kaballah.

Deheden: I have read my trade paperback of NOTB to pieces.

AGplusone: In trade paper as Moon is

ddavitt: What specifically, Bill?

DavidWrightSr: Most of my paperbacks are in tatters, and my hardbounds aren’t much better off

Copycat669: PLEASE! Talk Ginny into releasing editions with her comments in the margins! wouldnt’ taht be awesome!?!

BPRAL22169: Adam Cadman is the figure of a man — the biblical Adam — made up of the ten sephiroth of the Kaballah.

mertide: Doesn’t help if you read in the bath πŸ™‚

EBATNM: Jane, basically Adam Cadmon is the “body” of reality in Kabalah – a branch of Jewish mysticism

geeairmoe2: My trade NOTB is crumbling, too.

ddavitt: Most of mine are UK editions which, no dig, are better quality and are holding up well

AGplusone: Finding that the English publishers are still issuing hardbounds. Did the Brit hardbound have the illustrations, Jane, do you know?

ddavitt: Ah, OK.

EBATNM: It’s used as a metaphor

ddavitt: Not the one I remember reading from the library

ddavitt: Which would have been a first ed

TreetopAngelRN: I am slowly replacing mine and shipping off the old to folks who want them.

geeairmoe2: NOTB was the first Heinlein I had the chance to rush to the bookstore to buy.

AGplusone: Ask Simon

AGplusone: to look

Copycat669: well, guys. Wish me luck. I have an interview tomorrow in the town we’re moving to in two weeks. (and taht’s a whole set of new book stores to check out so if you have any requests, email me at

Copycat669: so i must head for bed. πŸ˜‰

ddavitt: Very dull cover, brownish with the title that’s all, no pics on the inside

AGplusone: Night Tam

ddavitt: Night Tam

TreetopAngelRN: G’night, Tam! Good Luck in the interview!

ddavitt: Good luck

geeairmoe2: Take care.

Paradis402: Nite Tam.

Deheden: Night, Tam, be good

mkeith54: nite Tam

Copycat669: (I don’t wanna be good…but I’ll try to be good at it!) Nice to have met all you newbies. see ya saturday!

mertide: night, Tam

Copycat669: i mean oldies. i’m the newbie

Copycat669: wrong thought process. πŸ˜‰

Copycat669 has left the room.

ddavitt: I might not make Sat; my brakes are going and we have to help fit a pool liner in return for help changing the brake disc thingies

mertide: you always have to watch out for those thingies

ddavitt: Friends with tools…finest kind

AGplusone: Sounds like fun … we used to do a lot of that. Build patios, etc.

AGplusone: Put in hottubs

DavidWrightSr: Well, since we’ve decided on a topic for the 6 and 8th, is there any reason to meet sat at all?

ddavitt: these friends got everyone they knew round one sat to totally dig over and renovate their garden

AGplusone: Not that I know … David, Bill?

TreetopAngelRN: Working Sat. so I won’t be here.

DavidWrightSr: Other than just chat.

DavidWrightSr: And I can’t be here anyway, just remembered

ddavitt: supplied beer and chili and we alll dug like navvies

BPRAL22169: We could continue with TEFL

TreetopAngelRN: sounds fun Jane

ddavitt: it was; Tom sawyer principle

Deheden: TEFL would be good

ddavitt: whitewashed fences

mkeith54: Sat. is out for me Memorial Day Weekend, VFW and Legion take up my time

AGplusone: I’m the only one some of my friends say ever had the guts to invite everyone to a G.I. Party at a mountain cabin. We practically rebuilt it in two days. Cooked a pig for the main meal.

ddavitt: If i’m here, I’ll pop in and see who’s around

TreetopAngelRN: I’ll look up the archives on TEFL

DavidWrightSr: Send me the log.

ddavitt: Is there going to be a THS meet as the last one didn’t work out?

BPRAL22169: That’s a good question — David, what say you?

AGplusone: [I sent out bluebacked subpoenas, instead of invitations, Dee and L.N. ]

mertide: OT: has anyone else heard of US Navy Reserves being called up lately – seems to be a bit going around

BPRAL22169: Ginny has been online on Sundays at abut the right time for the last couple of weks.

ddavitt: Is she any better?

TreetopAngelRN: Heinlein Society meets on Sundays?

AGplusone: Suggest in ten days rather than three.

ddavitt: Monthly directors meeting

TreetopAngelRN: oh

BPRAL22169: Quite a lot better — still very weak, though. Will take some time to recover strength.

ddavitt: OK

AGplusone: That’ll give me a little time to get some ducks lined up.

mkeith54: She seems to be on-line a lot more lately

EBATNM: mertide – No. But I’m in the mountains of NM

ddavitt: Glad to hear there’s an improvement

jilyd: I love it, AG. We had a tower party when we put up the 75 footer, but that’s fairly standard for hams.

ddavitt: can’t believe I forgot it until 45 mins in..and you’d all gone by then:-(

DavidWrightSr: I forgot for about 15 mins myself , Jane

BPRAL22169: I didn’t have AIM while I was in LA: due to unforeseen circumstances, I didn’t get hooked up with my laptop.

AGplusone: So’d I. Glad I looked at the Email and afh

ddavitt: I’d talked about it on the chat the day before, it was on my calendar..total mindwipe

DavidWrightSr: If any of you who were here before me want to add that portion into the log, e-mail it to me

BPRAL22169: I’ll send you a complete log, David.

EBATNM: Bill, you will be pleased to know that right now it’s holding-up a copy of “The Reader’s Companion”

AGplusone: din-din time for me. Spousal overlord unit has arrived him.

AGplusone: home?

BPRAL22169: It’s honored, no doubt.

TreetopAngelRN: laundry tie for me, oh goodie

Deheden: She who must be obeyed, David??

ddavitt: OK, I’m off to clean up and get changed after all my exertions

AGplusone: I’ll send out notices of the THS meeting, tonight or tomorrow, Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks Bill,

ddavitt: See you all soon…Bill, is there a Journal out soon/

Deheden: Yes, tonight is my night to shower.

DavidWrightSr: Sweaty Keyboard Now?

ddavitt: I’m fresh from exercise class

TreetopAngelRN: Night all!

AGplusone: G/nite

AGplusone has left the room.

EBATNM: night

mertide: Bill are you doing credit card or paypal yet?

ddavitt: Night Elizabeth

Deheden: Night, y’all.

mkeith54: Nite

mertide: Night all

jilyd: Nearly bedtime here in the east, at least for those of us who keep early hours. Nite TT, Nite AG.

ddavitt: waltons time πŸ™‚

Paradis402: Me too, to everything. Nite.

mertide: time for lunch!

Paradis402 has left the room.

ddavitt: Bill?

TreetopAngelRN has left the room.

BPRAL22169: It’s due out in July. I’m starting to assemble it now.

ddavitt: I’m not in it!!

ddavitt: But I still want it πŸ™‚

mertide: Did I understand that University of Qld has a set?

BPRAL22169: Nope to credit card. It’s just too expensive for an operation as small as I am.

mertide: Queensland

BPRAL22169: That’s right — Queensland.

Deheden: Goombye, all

ddavitt: Night Ron

Deheden has left the room.

mkeith54: Nite all

ddavitt: what’s in it?

mertide: I’ll have to mosey over and read them there, unless you get paypal happening

jilyd: Gooombye, yourself, Deheden. πŸ™‚

mkeith54 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: You could ask Sean — his set hasn’t arrived yet, but he’s getting a full set.

ddavitt: They have them in Toronto Public Library too I think you said?

mertide: It’s a very expensive method to do international drafts here, apart from the exchange rate woes

ddavitt: can’t you get a money order?

ddavitt: my bank does them for free

BPRAL22169: Let’s see — Joseph Major is doing a comparison of Sixth Column with “All.” David Wright has the first of two parts on time travel in sf and in Heinlein. I’ll be doing the study of “Beyond Doubt.”

ddavitt: I say I want it for x number of US dollars and they print it out

mertide: US dollar bank fees in Oz aren’t all that cheap

BPRAL22169: Yes, the Merrill collection has it.

ddavitt: OK. Look forward to it

ddavitt: Night all

BPRAL22169: I’ve been promised several other pieces, but I won’t set them in type until I receive them.

BPRAL22169: ciao

ddavitt has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night Bill. Thanks again

BPRAL22169: You, too.

mertide: Easier to get cash from them, might be worth thinking of doing it that way and crossing fingers

jilyd: Night all.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

EBATNM: not a good idea what with things being the way they are

jilyd has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Credit cards involve one in quite a lot of hassle — anywhere from 4% to 15% and then there are holds on funds for at least 90 days. It’s very expensive.

Reilloc: Night all.

Reilloc has left the room.

mertide: I wasn’t planning on packing the envelope with talcum powder

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: (sigh of relief)

mertide: That’s amazing, my credit card sales are credited straight away to me. 3% fees

BPRAL22169: I got Sean’s funds ok.

EBATNM: paranoia is very, very deep around here right now. Packages, especially international packages are being opened on an aggressive basis

BPRAL22169: I guess the Enlightenment is Over.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I’m still a very small boutique operation.

mertide: Did he send a draft? Put me to shame, did the boyo?

BPRAL22169: I can’t recall off the top of my head. It may have been an international money order.

BPRAL22169: I do recall it was written in US funds.

BPRAL22169: No matter what happens, the terrorists won hands down.

mertide: Be a bit cruel to send it in Aussies

BPRAL22169: BofA ought to be able to handle the conversion.

BPRAL22169: They do get a bit cranky, though.

mertide: Fee might be more than the value though

BPRAL22169: You might ask him when next he shows up on afh.

mertide: I might at that

mertide: The article titles read so well I’m hanging out to get my hands on it

EBATNM: the american dollar is ridiculously overvalued right now

mertide: you’re not telling me anything! πŸ™‚

mertide: It’ll end in tears as my grandma would say

BPRAL22169: I think David Silver has the first issue or perhaps the first two online in text format. You might ask him. It may be on a link from the Society webpage.

DavidWrightSr: I think that I am going to edit this discussion heavily, and just leave in the topic discussions. What do you think?

BPRAL22169: You might leave in the TEFL discussion as well — she may want to use part of it to springboard.

DavidWrightSr: Unless you want more.

EBATNM: LOL! and miss all this witty repartee?

BPRAL22169: We did wander all over hell and gone, didn’t we?

mertide: I think that might be a wonderful idea. And I might leave you guys clean up around here and get gone

BPRAL22169: Get out.


DavidWrightSr: Actually, it doesn’t matter to me, I can leave it all in

mertide: Bye all

mertide has left the room.

BPRAL22169: It’s up to you. I don’t think anything was *sensitive*

EBATNM: Do As Thou Wilt as Thou Art the Editor

DavidWrightSr: Ok , it’s a lot easier that way.

BPRAL22169: Ok Andy I got your Consophic e-mails and printed them out so I’ll go look at them now.

EBATNM: who is jilyd?

BPRAL22169: Dee — a lawyer who frequents afh

EBATNM: Ah, thank you

DavidWrightSr: Dee, the lawyer from LA, (that’s Lower Alabama)

BPRAL22169: That’s right. David S is the lawyer from LA, Los Angeles.

BPRAL22169: Or perhaps S/M – Santa/Monica

EBATNM: there IS nothing lower than Alabama πŸ™‚

BPRAL22169: Well, there’s the Gulf Profound…

DavidWrightSr: Now watch out, you are talking to a redneck from JawJuh

DavidWrightSr: O:-)

BPRAL22169: We just had a bit of excitement — abird wandered in and emmeline Gertrude just went into action from a sound sleep.

BPRAL22169: Junco, I think.

EBATNM: I lived in New Orleans for a while and picked-up some prejudices

BPRAL22169: David, did you see Path to War this past week?

DavidWrightSr: No. what was it on?

BPRAL22169: I know Andy didn’t. HBO, I think. It was inside the Johnson White House from Inaugural day to the announcement he wouldn’t run, with emphasis on the decisions about Viet Nam and how they affected/destroyed the Great Society.

DavidWrightSr: I am surprised that I missed it, I usually would be watching that

BPRAL22169: The remark about nothing lower than Alabama caused me to think of that.

BPRAL22169: It was quite illuminating, the way Thirteen Days was illuminating. From the outside the White House decisions at that time just looked insane. This put them in context so you could see how they were arrived at.

BPRAL22169: Still insane, of course – but not *just* insane.

EBATNM: They were insane. Johnson was a low-life scheming nincompoop with a rat’s brain

EBATNM: Just my opinion, of course

DavidWrightSr: No argument from me

BPRAL22169: And the most accomplished politician ever in american politics, according to the people who were around at the time.

EBATNM: Does our current ‘situation’ remind you of 1965? Does 2 me

BPRAL22169: Michael Gambon did a stunning portrayal of Johnson.

BPRAL22169: Very unlikely casting but it worked perfectly.

BPRAL22169: You mean the escalating for no good reason?

EBATNM: The over-reaction, the paranoia of Domino’s falling, fighting far away in a 3rd world pest hole of no particular value

BPRAL22169: At least there was a defined enemy in 1965. Not going to war without even a definite target selected.

EBATNM: Terrorism! We Shall Save The World!

BPRAL22169: And they didn’t shut down civil liberties in this country at that time.

EBATNM: We Can Win the War in Afghanistan!

BPRAL22169: Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

EBATNM: They certainly shut down some Civil Liberties at Kent State (he snarls)

EBATNM: *sorry* Button pushed, dog drools

BPRAL22169: Bell rings.

BPRAL22169: Of course, that was 1974, wasn’t it?


BPRAL22169: I don’t think that can be right.

BPRAL22169: Let me check.

DavidWrightSr: On my 30th birthday, I believe May 4, 1970

EBATNM: David, were you in Viet Nam?

DavidWrightSr: No Thank God. I got out in August 1965 and the troop ship I came home in went to the Pacific after that

EBATNM: So you got out right before the build-up.

DavidWrightSr: They announced the big build up as I was crossing the briney IIRC. Fortunately, my MOS was in Russian, and they didn’t need me πŸ™‚

BPRAL22169: That’s right 5/4/70

BPRAL22169: For some reason I thought it was later. But it’s almost contemporaneous with Altamont.

EBATNM: A friend of mine was a long distance ship-to-shore radio operator in the Marines but ended-up as a door gunner on a Huey. He “survived” but is a wig-out case.

EBATNM: They say Altamont and Kent State pretty much destroyed the New Left.

DavidWrightSr: I don’t recall Altamont. What was that?

BPRAL22169: Big rock concert — security by Hells Angels beat and I think killed one of the attendees.

EBATNM: Rolling Stone concert where they used the Hell’s Angels as security guards. Bad idea. And they did kill an attendee.

BPRAL22169: Considered the beginning of the end of the Flower Power era.

BPRAL22169: I think it was Pearl’s last concert.

DavidWrightSr: Interesting. I never heard of it, but then I was never into music of any kind except classical guitar and broadway shows

EBATNM: H’mm. You may be right there. I don’t remember. Alot of beer over the tonsils since 1970

EBATNM: Either of you see the article on the ABC news website about Hippies still being around?

BPRAL22169: Hell – I live that every time I go to Santa Cruz!

EBATNM: Peace, Brother.

EBATNM: Picture of Andy holding up two fingers in a V

BPRAL22169: Picture of Bill Barfing.

EBATNM: I really can’t see why anyone is nostalgic for the 60’s. What an awful time.

EBATNM: (and what awful speling!)

DavidWrightSr: What with the army and getting married, I missed the 60’s

DavidWrightSr: and Graduate school

BPRAL22169: I can — it was a time when possibilities opened up after being shut down for a very long time.

EBATNM: Anytime that thought Andy Warhol was an intellectual had serious problems with dealing with the world as she is

BPRAL22169: Well, that’s certainly true.

BPRAL22169: And Yoko Ono as an artist. Let’s not forget that.

EBATNM: You are right that possibilities certainly opened – but Ye Gods and Little Fishes! Yoko Ono IS an artist. But she is a terrible artist.

BPRAL22169: I would say she is not realy an artist at all. she’s a very minor league philosopher masquerading as a very bad artist.

BPRAL22169: YMMV, of course.

EBATNM: As much fun as this is, I think I need to go bye-bye

BPRAL22169: Okay. Get out!

BPRAL22169: Have fun.

BPRAL22169: Me too

EBATNM: Bill, you are the soul of curse-ity

BPRAL22169: Of course. I live for it.Ciao, all.

EBATNM: Bye David

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

EBATNM: *poof*

EBATNM has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:12 P.M. EDT

DavidWrightSr: That’s all Folks !
Final End Of Discussion Log

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