Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
Saturday Sept 15, 2001 5:00 P.M. EDT
Pioneering in Heinlein – The Final Frontier
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
maikoshT has entered the room.
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Will. Nobody here yet, but me and my alter ego.
DavidWrightSr: Don’t know if we will have many tonight. Jane is going to be late.
geeairmoe2: I’d noticed Jane’s post that she would be late and might need someone to open things up.
geeairmoe2: I’v got a few internet-related tasks to clean up. I’ll check back.
DavidWrightSr: Ok. I’m working on something too.
AGplusone has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Will, David.
DavidWrightSr: Hi David.
AGplusone: crummy week, eh?
DavidWrightSr: Just told Ginny and Will that I have to be AFK for a while.
DavidWrightSr: I have to take my wife to get something to eat.
geeairmoe2: Hello.
AGplusone: Enjoy it.
DavidWrightSr: I’ll leave both of my copies running to get the log. Yes a very crummy week.
DavidWrightSr: Understatement of the century.
DavidWrightSr: See you later
AGplusone: see ya!
AGplusone: The century’s young.
geeairmoe2: Just finishing up some other internet tasks, so if I don’t answer, don’t be alarmed.
AGplusone: I won’t … sipping my wake-up tea.
geeairmoe2: I annoyed some people on Sff.Net’s group about the bombing.
AGplusone: who?
SAcademy has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Ginny!
geeairmoe2: Hello, m’am.
SAcademy: Good evening everyone. David W. had to take his wife out to dinner.
ddavitt has entered the room.
ddavitt: Hello everyone.
AGplusone: Hi, Jane.
geeairmoe2: Hi, Jane.
SAcademy: Hi, Jane.
ddavitt: I am here until L wakes up and demands food; David is at work.
ddavitt: Are you feeling better David S?
SAcademy: I willlhave to leave soon, have a very sore throat.
ddavitt: Sorry to hear that Ginny
AGplusone: better when I’m awake. How’s your flu, Ginny … just what I was about to ask
geeairmoe2: Sorry to hear that. Gargle salty water.
ddavitt: Hot whisky toddy with lots of honey
SAcademy: That’s a thought! Haven’t tried that yet.
ddavitt: It tastes nicer than salt water too 🙂
geeairmoe2: It is nasty, but it always works for me.
ddavitt: I have heard that too Will
AGplusone: The whisky tastes better too.
geeairmoe2: As a non-drinker I can’t comment on the other.
AGplusone: saltwater tastes yucky
ddavitt: It’s medicinal Will
AGplusone: clears the sinuses
geeairmoe2: Not saltwater, salty water. A teaspoon or two in warm water.
ddavitt: Did you all get chance to read the log from Thursday?
AGplusone: Yes
ddavitt: Good.
geeairmoe2: Nope.
ddavitt: bad:-)
WJaKe has entered the room.
AGplusone: ‘change’ doesn’t mean we read it, however. Hi, Jake
AGplusone: chance
geeairmoe2: Been researching how the bombing fits into Armegeddon in Revelations.
ddavitt: Never mind; if we go over same ground it doesn’t matter. Hi there
DenvToday has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Ron
ddavitt: Hi again Denv
DenvToday: Greetings everybody!
DenvToday: Hello 🙂
AGplusone: Have to read Steve’s account in Job:ACOJ
AGplusone: 😉
ddavitt: Is everyone ready to start the chat?
AGplusone: I was always intrigued when Alec meets up with them in Heaven and Steve gives that little hint of an a
AGplusone: account
DJedPar has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Denis
ddavitt: Hi Denis
DenvToday: Hi Denis
DJedPar: Hi David, Hi Everybody
ddavitt: Maybe we’ll wait a bit, see if any more people drop in…
ddavitt: Or then again maybe we won’t
ddavitt: We were discussing colonisation on Thursday
ddavitt: And whetehr any of us coddled sissies could hack it any more
fgherman has entered the room.
ddavitt: Can we do without all the tech and comforts, not just for a holiday but for ever?
AGplusone: Hi Felicia
fgherman: Helllo all
ddavitt: Hi Felicia
SAcademy: Good evening Felicia.
DenvToday: Good afternoon Felicia
ddavitt: Or can we colonise now and expect to get the comfort level back up quite fast?
geeairmoe2: Humans are adaptable. No matter how high or low that comfort level is, humans adapt.
AGplusone: food rationing, no new ‘putors every year, have to make do with ’41 model Fords, gosh …
ddavitt: Could you get used to it you think?
geeairmoe2: Wheter I’d voluntarily give them up is one question. If its forced on me, I adapt.
ddavitt: I’m not sure I could
AGplusone: gas rationing
DenvToday: David, you just described Cuba.
fgherman: I sure I’d be able to adapt
AGplusone: I just described 1942-45
geeairmoe2: When its adapt or perish, you’ll find yourself capable of extraordinary feats.
fgherman: Just think how luxurious our life looks to someone from just 100 years ago
ddavitt: true..
AGplusone: [or 39-45, in Britain]
AGplusone: Do you think the cubanos under Castro are pioneering spirit tough, Ron?
ddavitt: brb
DenvToday: I think they must be hardy just to make it from day to day. So in a sense, perhaps. But having the..
fgherman: I think the Cuban people are capable of extraordinary accomplishments, just like most other humans
AGplusone: Adaptable, resolute, patriotic
DenvToday: …pioneering spirit suggest some free will in the mater.
AGplusone: agreed
DenvToday: Most Cubans would get out if they could.
AGplusone: altho those driven from a society can be pioneers. the pilgrims were driven out
DenvToday: Good point. But still, they had a choice of places to go.
fgherman: They don’t have alot of choice in the matter, though
DenvToday: Cubans have no choice.
AGplusone: many of those who left the south, ca. 1865, left because they had ‘nothing’ left
AGplusone: or felt that way
geeairmoe2: “Pioneering Spirit” shows a mental requirement is needed. Ya got to WANT it.
fgherman: I’ve lost track of how many countries the Jews have been kicked out of.
AGplusone: Yes.
AGplusone: M y grandparents got tired of pogroms
AGplusone: The Irish greatgrandparents got tired of starving.
geeairmoe2: In ‘normal’ society you can cruise along whether you want it or not.
DenvToday: Interesting note: More Jews were summarily expelled from Arab countries after the founding of…
AGplusone: The Italian grandfather left because there waa a feud back home that would have
AGplusone: killed him had he returned.
DenvToday: …Israel than there were Arabs who lost their homes in the new state of Israel.
DenvToday: All all Arabs were invited to stay in Israel.
fgherman: And the Arabs were asked to stay
AGplusone: And some did.
DenvToday: They left to consolidate, then attack.
AGplusone: A friend of ours is Druse.
AGplusone: She left last year with her family. Said it was safe anymore.
geeairmoe2: I’m half-need, half-desire. Looking for a better life for one set of anschestors …
geeairmoe2: … escaping religious persecution from the other.
AGplusone: I think the Cubanos probably have been weeded a bit … have some of the pioneer spirit, on both sides
AGplusone: of the Miami straits.
DenvToday: I never cease to admire the Cubans who take to those leaky rafts to come here.
fgherman: Even with all the hardship involved, I don’t think there isn’t a one of us who wouldn’t help colonize
DenvToday: I know in my heart I would never have that kind of courage.
fgherman: space if we were allowed to go.
AGplusone: Odd, though, isn’t it, the ones like the half of the Gonzalez family who stay …
DenvToday: Felicia, true. lol
AGplusone: because it’s their home.
AGplusone: The Reformers who stayed and fought the Cavaliers eventually.
AGplusone: “Roundheads” a generation or two later.
SAcademy: I heard an American ambassador today talking abaout what WE have done to others in the way of bombing
AGplusone: Which one?
fgherman: Remember, America was settled by folks who cut and run rather than stay and fight.
SAcademy: Can’t remember his name.
geeairmoe2: Heard that, too. Don’t know which ambassador it was.
DenvToday: Felicia, stay and fight who? There was no organized resistance. Cromwell was a generation later.
SAcademy: We’ve been bombing indiscriminately all over the globe.
geeairmoe2: Isn’t the State Department types always the last to get on board?
AGplusone: Maybe his argument was ‘bombing’ doesn’t solve anything. The only way you do it, is put troops
AGplusone: on the ground, and settle it finally.
fgherman: The Church of England, for example, with the Pilgrims
AGplusone: Do the Germans or the Japanese hate us today because we finally settled their hash
AGplusone: by invading and then occuping them for, in Germany’s case, nearly a half century
fgherman: Maybe we should settle France’s hash; they hate us
SAcademy: I doubt that they all love us.
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
AGplusone: in Japan’s for (if you count Okinawa) still that time too.
fgherman: I’m with Machiavelli on this one: better to be feared than loved.
AGplusone: I agree …
DenvToday: Speaking of Japan…have any of you read Clancy’s Debt of Honor?
geeairmoe2: Lived in Japan 70-73 and the older Japaneese still walked on eggshells around Americans.
AGplusone: Yes., of course.
AGplusone: Nice prediction, eh?
DenvToday: It was eerie.
joelrmpls has entered the room.
AGplusone: Evenin’ Joel.
DenvToday: Hi Joel
fgherman: Hi sweetie
joelrmpls: Hi, all.
AGplusone: “sweetie”? You haven’t been reading his posts! Nuclear warmonger!
SAcademy: Hello, Joel
geeairmoe2: Hello recent arrivals.
AGplusone: 😀
fgherman: You don’t have to sleep with him
fgherman: 🙂
AGplusone: some of us are lucky!
fgherman: besides, I mostly agree with him
AGplusone: The pioneering spirit leds to the same sort of spirit that some fear is lacking
geeairmoe2: Being a pioneer does take a certain kind of confident arrogance.
AGplusone: today in the polulace if we’re to settle the ‘terrorist’ hash.
DenvToday: I have the pioneering spirit in abundance. What I lack is tolerance for any sort of discomfort.
geeairmoe2: The “Nothing can stop me” attitude.
DenvToday: Or danger.
AGplusone: leads
fgherman: We haven’t been tested yet; you just watch
AGplusone: I listened to a cautionary program on PBS last night … instant gratification won’t cut it
WJaKe: Where on Earth is there to be a pioneer anymore?
AGplusone: was the point Moyer and others tried to make.
DenvToday: I’d be happy to pioneer any place with Good cigars and a Sizzler.
AGplusone: No surgical strikes will solve what’s facing us.
DenvToday: David, I fear you’re right.
AGplusone: The spirit of doing without new car models, putting up with rationing, etc., is what we need to know
AGplusone: we’re going to face.
AGplusone: Same spirit as the pioneers.
AGplusone: Full mobilization …
WJaKe: I think you’re wrong. We have more economic backbone now then we had in WWII
AGplusone: war footing. No “great society” and war at the same time.
DenvToday: What good would that do? Sending 20 divisions to Afghanistan wouldn’t solve a thing.
AGplusone: Maybe it won’t take 1939-45, Jake, but you cannot expect guns and butter to work.
DenvToday: We need to bully governments into handing over the terrorists.
geeairmoe2: I’ve been waiting for some pundits on TV to talk about an economic war …
AGplusone: How do you know, Denv. Because the Russians couldn’t.
AGplusone: ?
geeairmoe2: … everyone seems to concentrate on military options.
AGplusone: The Russians had to face a guerrilla war, and no guerrilla war has ever succeeded without outside supp
WJaKe: Because we don’t need the kind and quantity of guns needed in the past
geeairmoe2: Cutting off their funds should be a first, bloodless option.
AGplusone: ort, which the Afghanstanis had. From us, and bin Laden.
joelrmpls: Yup; I sure am concentrating on military options, as a way of motivating proper political ones.
WJaKe: THis will be a covert “war”, most likely, as there is no country to invade.
joelrmpls: Among other things.
joelrmpls: And, yes, I’m a nuclear warmonger.
AGplusone: Only way we wouldn’t need the kind and quanities of arms and troops on the ground is if we used
geeairmoe2: I’d first option in a ‘dinosuar’, so that wavering allies could see what an accidental tail swipe …
AGplusone: the nuclear or ABC options.
geeairmoe2: … could do to them.
AGplusone: That’s unacceptible for too many.
joelrmpls: I don’t come to that casually, but in other places — not here — the option is apparently too icky…
DenvToday: We don’t need to bomb population centers. We inform harboring governments that they will hand over…
joelrmpls: … to discuss, and anybody who would is subhuman.
AGplusone: Because of the collateral effects.
geeairmoe2: Opps, sorry for that fallout. Who’s side are you on again?
WJaKe: And you still don’t know where to drop the A-bomb!
DenvToday: …the terrorists. They can do this. If they don’t, we start killing from the top up. We start…
joelrmpls: I could give you six targets, right now,
WJake.
DenvToday: …shooting presidents. Then Vice-presidents…then generals. Down the line.
DenvToday: top down, I meant.
WJaKe: But are you sure you will hit terrorists there?
AGplusone: I disagree about a covert war. I think the only way to win is occupy the ground.
joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely — if you include “military and governmental headquarters of states that …
fgherman: I wonder what Robert would have said?
AGplusone: Cf. Starship Troopers.
joelrmpls: … have sponsored terrorism that has resulted in the deaths of US citizens.”
AGplusone: “Navy types” always think differently, and they’re wrong.
geeairmoe2: Since the Gulf too many people can’t give up on the dream of a ‘clean’ war.
joelrmpls: Remember: this was a response to the US involvement in the Gulf War.
AGplusone: Johnson and Nixon thought “bomb Hanoi” or “bomb Cambodia” would win. They were wrong.
WJaKe: The Gulf War was too easy because it was too limited.
WJaKe: We won the battle without resolving the conflict.
DenvToday: I’m disturbed by the casual acceptance that police state restrictions on all of our lives will be…
DenvToday: …necessary. Nobody seems outraged by that.
AGplusone: There were no ‘police state’ restrictions during WW2.
WJaKe: what sort of restrictions do you refer to? Let’s talk specifics.
joelrmpls: And that’s pretty much what’s likely to happen, now — at most, a restricted invasion of Afghanistan..
geeairmoe2: Terrorists need to look into the eyes of the soldiers who put the bullet into their foreheads.
fgherman: I know that a large number of us are concerned by that.
DenvToday: To protect our airplanes, it’s very simple. Allow passengers to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
joelrmpls: … and more talk about a “war on terrorism”, that’ll be about as effective as the “war on drugs.”
AGplusone: The folk would lived in GBritain or the US were appalled when they found out what ‘police state’
joelrmpls: But, let’s say that we can wave a wand and make suicidal hijacking bombings impossible. Wave it. ok:
AGplusone: meant is eastern Europe under the communists, or in Germany, after the war, under the Nazis
joelrmpls: Do you think we’ve ended terrorism against the US?
AGplusone: “in” eastern Europe
AGplusone: No.
joelrmpls: What happens when, just to pick an example, OSB’s buddies, still at loose — or Arafat’s — hijack…
WJaKe: No, we wouldn’t.
AGplusone: The only way to “end” terrorism is deny it a refuge … north of the Yalu River
joelrmpls: …a gasoline tanker, drive it to the Mall of America, where they meet their friends with the …
geeairmoe2: A lot of me hopes we ended it, but most of me fears it’ll get worse before it gets better.
joelrmpls: McVeigh-style bombs.
AGplusone: and the only way you end the refuge is occupy it.
AGplusone: Not bomb it.
WJaKe: so now we need to occupy China?
joelrmpls: I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I don’t think that there would have been any refuge in, say,
AGplusone: Not fighting China, yet
joelrmpls: Tokyo if Harry Truman had decided to blow it up.
WJaKe: You’re headed that way aren’t you? north of the Yalu River?
geeairmoe2: One commentator mentioned some Europeans marvel at how we have public trash cans.
joelrmpls: From the Puppet Masters: “We’re going to have to learn to live with this horror.”
AGplusone: Today we’re fighting Southwest Asian refuges
joelrmpls: The Israelis have, for years.
AGplusone: Figuratively speaking, Jake, yes.
WJaKe: I thought we were fighting Mid-Eastern ex-patriates.
AGplusone: Land at Haiffa, and proceed east.
geeairmoe2: The Phillipines have a Islamic terrorist problem, too.
joelrmpls: I think that the PA component of the problem is the easiest to handle, from the US POV.
AGplusone: then solve it in its time
WJaKe: PA?
AGplusone: if the Filipinos cannot handle it
joelrmpls: How about the Bekaa? Syria? the Emirates? Libya? Sudan? Cuba?
DenvToday: Pennsylvania. We wipe out Pennsylvania.
fgherman: Palestinian “Authority”
DenvToday: Oh.
joelrmpls: PA = “Palestinian Authority” Arafat’s police state.
geeairmoe2: Someone expert, quiote confident, said Isreal can handle the PA and Hammas …
WJaKe: But I thought Arafat was appaled at errorism, denounced it in every way!
geeairmoe2: … if the US would allow them.
WJaKe: er, terrorism.
joelrmpls: But remember, unless we restrict ourselves to Al Quiada, we’re talking about a dozen states.
AGplusone: Coming back from Philadelphia, considering the weather, maybe we should wipe out Pennsylvania …
AGplusone: while we’re at it. 😉
fgherman: Take a lot of pesky relatives of mine
joelrmpls: As to Arafat being “appalled” about terrorism, actions speak louder than words, and he’s deliberately
AGplusone: Mine too
geeairmoe2: There was a claim that bin Laden had cells in 55 countries. Some said 34.
joelrmpls: let known terrorists out of his jails.
joelrmpls: Cells are one thing — I’m just talking about national entities that support Al Quaida. There’s…
AGplusone: So, we tell 34 countries, stamp them out or we’re coming in to stamp them out for you, or with you.
joelrmpls: … at least Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Sudan.
AGplusone: I think the national entities are pretty easy to identify.
joelrmpls: And by “support”, I don’t mean just “cheer on.”
WJaKe: Again, if you can find these cells.
AGplusone: That means remove the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and the Sudan, etc., and replace them
AGplusone: with Adenhauers.
joelrmpls: Again: it’s not the cells. We, manifestly, have an Al Quiada cell in Minnesota.
joelrmpls: Or, at least, had.
WJaKe: So replace the govt. of Minnesota?
joelrmpls: But I think it’s fair to say that was without the support of the government of Minnesota.
AGplusone: If that means occupation, for the fifty years we’ve had NATO in Germany, then so be it.
DenvToday: Joel, I don’t think the U.S. has the knowledge–or the will–to really attack terrorist groups.
joelrmpls: WJake, if you insist on refusing to acknowledge the difference between hidden terrorist cells…
geeairmoe2: The Russians never had mid-east terrorist problems. They had a unique solution…
WJaKe: :-DYeah, but I had to take at poke at Gov. The Mind
joelrmpls: … and states that support terrorist organizations, there’s really nothing we can talk about.
DenvToday: We’ll give lip service, but that’s all. Or we might wipe out one branch of the tree.
geeairmoe2: … when a Russian was kidnapped, the next day the kidnappers received the …
AGplusone: Clancy makes that point, Gee
geeairmoe2: … body part of a close relative and a note suggesting many future deliveries.
ddavitt: sorry folks; hi to those who arrived after I left to feed the baby. I will have to go for good as
AGplusone: and I agree.
WJaKe: I do acknowledge the difference. That is what I see as the root problem, finding the hidden cells!
joelrmpls: It wasn’t the next day; it took weeks, and at least one of the packages they sent included the body…
fgherman: Bye Jane
ddavitt: David is not yet back and I need to start cooking.
joelrmpls: …parts of an infant girl.
ddavitt: Night.
DenvToday: Bye Jane
joelrmpls: Bye, Jane.
AGplusone: bye
geeairmoe2: Take care, Jane.
WJaKe: bye Jane
ddavitt has left the room.
joelrmpls: WJake, could you do something about that awful yellow color of your name?
DenvToday: The Israelis know. If we use Mossad, it could be done.
WJaKe: I don’t know, it’s red on my screen
DenvToday: We wouldn’t even have to do it ourselves. All we would have to do is give the Israelis the go-ahead.
AGplusone: The problem is the (now it’s blue, Jake)
fgherman: Your own name always shows up in red
joelrmpls: The issue of “extinguishing terrorist cells” <> “extinguishing the governments that support them”
geeairmoe2: I’m not sure Body Part Parcel Post would work with these guys, though.
AGplusone: 5 o’clock news.
joelrmpls: I’m not advocating that; I’m just pointing out that’s what they did.
geeairmoe2: It would be worth a try.
joelrmpls: As to the Mossad, I’m not sure that they have accurate targetting information about terrorist…
WJaKe: I know joel, I agree with you on that, cells and govts.
joelrmpls: …organizations in, say, Baghdad.
AGplusone: Maybe not. Joel and Clancy simply pointed out how the Russians made the targeting of Americans prefer-
AGplusone: able to targeting Russians.
joelrmpls: Of course it’s preferable — and we do all realize that OSB could have gotten a higher bodycount…
BPRAL22169: It seems to me if we could choke off bin Ladin’s funding source — Hussein — the problem reduces
BPRAL22169: in size instantly.
joelrmpls: … with just one plane, don’t we?
joelrmpls: Funding, political support, all of that, sure.
AGplusone: Exactly, or his funding from Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or Syria
geeairmoe2: Cut off his money, isolate known associates.
BPRAL22169: The consensus seems to be Hussein is the principal source.
AGplusone: that means destablilize those governments, and replace them
WJaKe: I thought OSB had inherited money?
AGplusone: Hussein gets his money from all those sources.
BPRAL22169: We don’t have a particularly good record at placing puppet governments.
fgherman: Only 330 million
WJaKe: Or has burned up the several hundred million dollars mentioned/
AGplusone: Either they stop their subjects. Sure we do. Everyone forgets we replaced Hitler and Tojo
joelrmpls: … but the Emirates are major contributors, too. You don’t block a faucet with a fork.
geeairmoe2: Weren’t we able to freeze a lot of Iranian assests during the hostage holding?
AGplusone: rather successfully.
AGplusone: We did that by all out war on those governments and by occupying the ground’
BPRAL22169: I rther thought Tojo reigned until his death.
joelrmpls: We did, but only after unconditional surrender, and a commitment to military occupation.
AGplusone: Why did he die, Bill.
AGplusone: ?
BPRAL22169: And we did not replace Hitler — we accepted an existing government in place.
geeairmoe2: It goes directly to how willing are we to hold them to “You’re either for us, or against us.” …
joelrmpls: Al Quaida is funded by, at least in part, the Emirates. Note that nobody is talking about action….
joelrmpls: …. against them.
BPRAL22169: You are right about Tojo — I was thinking Hirohito.
DenvToday: Joel, there are many methods to stamp out terrorism. Some are better than others, but the essential..
geeairmoe2: … what happens when an Afghani mother’s starving baby shows up all over TV.
DenvToday: …question is this: Does the U.S. have the will to actually do it? To get down and dirty?
AGplusone: What happened that enabled us to replace Hitler.
joelrmpls: Denv: Yup.
BPRAL22169: But assassinating a chief of staff is not the same as placing a puppet government.
AGplusone: We didn’t accept the existing government, what remained after Hitler, we immediately put it on trial
AGplusone: and hanged most of it.
DenvToday: I hope you’re right.
joelrmpls: Puppet governments are easy to do — after unconditional surrender. Before, no.
joelrmpls: We actually hanged very, very little of it.
AGplusone: After we accepted its surrender.
joelrmpls: Take a look at the stats at Nuremberg sentences, sometime.
AGplusone: Well, now, what exactly happened to the guy who surrendered?
BPRAL22169: Doenitz?
AGplusone: Yes.
joelrmpls: He got off. Not the worse call ever made.
BPRAL22169: I think he had a short sentence.
DenvToday: Doenitz got ten years
BPRAL22169: I don’t remember the specifics of the Nuremberg verdicts any more.
AGplusone: that took him out of action, didn’t it?
BPRAL22169: Except a few — Hess, Goering, etc.
joelrmpls: Take a look — it might be very instructive, after you get past the few who were hanged.
fgherman: Beats hanging, though
AGplusone: We didn’t exactly accept their government, did we?
joelrmpls: I’m in favor of giving Arafat a suspended sentence.
fgherman: Amen
AGplusone: Yes, we know, Joel.
geeairmoe2: I worry about the will of our MTV watching, video-game playing soldiers …
DenvToday: Suspended over a gibbet?
geeairmoe2: … will the stick it out.
BPRAL22169: Yes, we accepted the government and set up civil elections, with a military occupation interim
AGplusone: for how long?
joelrmpls: I’m not worried about the will of the military — I am worried about the will of the US govt, and…
joelrmpls: … the US population.
DenvToday: Joel, my point exactly.
BPRAL22169: I dont recall, exactly — it was still going on when Patton died.
geeairmoe2: All of it, agreed.
AGplusone: In 1961 when I got there it was still an occupation, whether we recognized Konrad or not
BPRAL22169: “Denazification”
joelrmpls: … and note how easily “denazification” was suspended, and for whom.
AGplusone: Whether we let Konrad have a little army or not
DenvToday: Pragmatism wins every time over noble philosophies.
DenvToday: That sounds cynical, but it’s true.
joelrmpls: If there’s a land war, the numbers of US servicemen coming home in bodybags will be huge.
WJaKe has left the room.
AGplusone: Today, the Seventh Army is still on the ground over there …
fgherman: Ginny, you’ve lived through something like this before; do you think we have what it takes?
joelrmpls: Note that the leaders are talking in the vaguest generalities, and even qualifying those.
joelrmpls: See Wolfowitz’s “clarification” yesterday.
AGplusone: Will they really? Didn’t Hackman predict 10,000 casualties in Irag, Joel?
DenvToday: Yep. Lots of qualifying and revising going on today.
SAcademy: Sorry, I don’t knnow whether we do have it any more Felicia.
AGplusone: yet the “Republican Guard” melted, didn’t it?
DenvToday: I felt something of what we had then last week when I watched Band of Brothers. I went and looked…
joelrmpls: Dupuy predicted 300, mostly from friendly fire.
DenvToday: …at my father’s Bronze Star. Something I hadn’t done in years.
AGplusone: Hitler and Tojo both had a dedicated populance on their side. Gott Mit Uns!
AGplusone: Banzai!
joelrmpls: One of the reasons that I favor the nuclear option is that I don’t think we have it.
AGplusone: Does bin Ladin have that?
AGplusone: Does Hussein have that?
joelrmpls: I do think the only way we can win, for a sufficiently serious value of “win”, is …
fgherman: He doesn’t need it
joelrmpls: …via a shortcut.
geeairmoe2: I worry about our current generation because the WWII generation were hardened by …
AGplusone: Of course, not, in a terrorist war … but I’m not talking about fighting a terrorist war.
geeairmoe2: … the depression. The cureent generation’s had no ‘hardening’.
AGplusone: Agree, Will.
AGplusone: But is it really different?
DenvToday: Interesting side note: When we declared war on Japan, we didn’t declare war on a nation.
geeairmoe2: They don’t understand deprivation and sacrifice.
DenvToday: We declared war on one man–the Emporer.
AGplusone: That’s the problem.
DenvToday: Emperor. Sorry.
joelrmpls: More depressing news: note how the Admin is lauding the Pakistanis, despite….
joelrmpls: ….them having rejected the most important US demand.
AGplusone: Is that today? I haven’t watched the news today.
joelrmpls: Yup — they’ve made it clear that they’ll accept overflights, only. No US troops on…
joelrmpls: …Pakistani soil.
AGplusone: What has Powell said? Or is it ‘administration’ voices only?
joelrmpls: State is dancing around whether or not we ever asked for that.
DenvToday: Yep Joel. I expected that.
geeairmoe2: We should remind of where we could stand should trouble with India crops up again.
joelrmpls: Oh, I think that we should abandon neutrality in India/Pakistan.
fgherman: “Go India”
joelrmpls: Yup.
joelrmpls: They’ve been living with this terror more than we have.
joelrmpls: If the Indians decide they need to take out Pakistani nuclear facilities, I think…
DenvToday: “I refuse to be impartial between the fire and the fire brigade.” – W.S. Churchill
joelrmpls: … we ought to provide targetting information, and air cover.
AGplusone: Well, India has its own problems regarding tolerance of other religions.
joelrmpls: I’m not saying that India is perfect — quite the contrary. What I am saying is that…
AGplusone: I think the ‘administration’ better get told by its own citizenry that they better stop dancing
joelrmpls: …we need to be much more generous about peccadilloes in our allies than we …
joelrmpls: …are about virtues in our enemies.
geeairmoe2: We ought to adopt that arab concept, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
joelrmpls: Cuba, for example, has nearly 100% literacy. I think that’s a good thing.
AGplusone: And then turn our armies on them after we finish off the radical Islamites, like Patton wanted, Joel?
joelrmpls: But are we serious about stopping terrorism? Or just AlQuida?
DenvToday: Joel, that was true of Nazi Germany as well.
joelrmpls: On India?
geeairmoe2: To get most of the world onboard, they may demand ‘come help get our terrorists, too’.
joelrmpls: See “Solution Unsatisfactory”.
AGplusone: See, To Sail Beyond the Sunset.
fgherman: And what’s wrong with that?
AGplusone: President Patton
joelrmpls: We have the opposite of a creeping mission right now. We have the . . .
joelrmpls: … constantly shrinking mission.
joelrmpls: Which will work only if it’s sufficiently instructive.
geeairmoe2: Be longer and bloodier to solve everyone’s problem, but worht it to our children. Goes back …
joelrmpls: see http://www.jerrypournelle.com
AGplusone: I think we should simply disestablish every government that sponsors terrorism against us.
fgherman: The thing that bothers me, is that no one really cared until someone other than Jews were being killed
geeairmoe2: … to : do we have the guts to stick out to the end.
joelrmpls: I’m with you on that — but note how many governments we have to disestablish…
joelrmpls: …by that principle.
AGplusone: And by disestablish I mean land troops on their soil and replace them.
joelrmpls: We don’t have a tenth the troops needed to occupy them, not with full mobilization.
AGplusone: As I said, land at Haiffa and turn east.
AGplusone: Really?
geeairmoe2: We had a president the last 8 years kissing Arab rear and blocking Israel in an …
geeairmoe2: attempt to get himself a Peace Prize.
AGplusone: We had enough troops in 45
joelrmpls: And that’s forgetting, for a moment, the nontrivial problem of conquering them.
AGplusone: And our population was half that, and our armed forces were reduced.
joelrmpls: We had enough troops in 1945, to — with the help of our allies — occupy two non-resisting
joelrmpls: countries.
AGplusone: Well, who’s going to help them resist?
joelrmpls: Both of which had been thoroughly conquered.
AGplusone: that’s what I’m proposing
geeairmoe2: I worry about getting prepared. I live next to Ft. Hood, largest military base in the world …
geeairmoe2: … and training would be two, three days a week because of lack of equipment.
joelrmpls: I know you are.
AGplusone: Yes, just like 1940 and 41.
geeairmoe2: Soldiers had nothing substantive to do the rest of the time.
AGplusone: I’m talking full mobilization.
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
joelrmpls: Okay, how many divisions do we need to conquer, at a minimum, the following list:
AGplusone: Read the stories about training in 40 and 41 some day. Flour sacks, broomsticks, trucks labeled “tank”
AGplusone: 40 or 50
joelrmpls: Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Emirates, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Cuba and Libya?
AGplusone: Leave Cuba out. We don’t need to worry about them.
joelrmpls: Okay.
AGplusone: One peep out of you and thermonuclear war.
joelrmpls: I’ll even throw out Sudan, just to be generous.
AGplusone: Green glass covers Cuba
geeairmoe2: I go back to suggest we had a better, more hardened pool of men for combat in 41 than today.
AGplusone: Maybe so, but there are a few good men around who can harden.
fgherman: No, we’ve got Gulf War veterans
AGplusone: Doesn’t matter. They’re good men.
joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely — but we had more blooded officers available in Korea. Look at all the retreads…
joelrmpls: HST called up.
AGplusone: They know what can be done.
AGplusone: We have to have a Kaserine Pass.
joelrmpls: I’m not doubting their courage, or their professionalism. I am doubting the numbers.
geeairmoe2: I hope so, but I see everyday the idiots we have in the Army.
AGplusone: That is what hardens.
AGplusone: The idiots get shaken out.
joelrmpls: Let’s just look at Syria — probably one of the easier places to conquer.
AGplusone: No, let’s let the military look at Syria. That’s what they’re paid for.
geeairmoe2: The everyday grunts? Scary. But then, its only the idiots that make the news here.
geeairmoe2: I just may be seeing that black spot and forgetting the big, white paper its on.
joelrmpls: Okay; if you don’t want to do the thought experiment, I won’t force you. 🙂
AGplusone: They’ll do the thought experiment if we tell them to.
AGplusone: That’s their job.
AGplusone: But we have to have the will to tell them and to follow through.
joelrmpls: Sure, they will. But it’ll still take n number of soldiers to conquer a country of m millions.
fgherman: Hear, hear
AGplusone: That’s what we’re talking about “pioneer spirit”
joelrmpls: What if m < our total possible mobilization?
joelrmpls: Err, make that “what if n < our total possible mobilization”?
geeairmoe2: Its just that if what we have to use is what I’ve seen at Ft. Hood, it might be a high number.
AGplusone: We cannot have guns and butter ….
joelrmpls: Agreed.
geeairmoe2: Then again, the sight of that rubble in NYC might be the hardening we’ve lacked.
AGplusone: We can field eight armored division and 22 infantry divisions in a year if we do it.
joelrmpls: But let’s assume that we’re willing to lower our enlistment standards, and include, say, 47-year old
joelrmpls: … fat guys with diabetes.
AGplusone: running Remingtons, sure
geeairmoe2: How tied in is the will the fight with the numbers needed.
fgherman: And their wives
joelrmpls: I’ll accept your numbers on the divisions — but how many did the Nazis have in the Balkans, alone?
AGplusone: it’s the will … I don’t hear day that will live in infamy … I don’t hear declarations of war.
joelrmpls: Me, neither.
AGplusone: DivisionsWW 2 have nothing to do with Divisions today
joelrmpls: Except from Bob Barr, may his tribe increase.
geeairmoe2: Maybe the paranoia about the various citizen militias will drop a little.
joelrmpls: Okay — how many of those thirty divisions do you think we need for Afghanistan, alone?
AGplusone: Almost as bad as armor battalions against one MI
AGplusone: All of them.
AGplusone: Clancy argues in his one recent Bear and whatever it was, that an Armor Division is sufficient today
joelrmpls: Which means, therefore, that we don’t have enough for the other countries that need…
AGplusone: to do what at least a Corps did in WW 2
joelrmpls: … the same attention.
joelrmpls: Oh, in terms of firepower vs. an enemy military, sure.
AGplusone: Not planning to land in Afghanistan first, Joel. First, as I said, you land at Haiffa.
geeairmoe2: Have we totally abandoned the ‘war on two fronts’ strategy?
AGplusone: And you clean out North Africa.
joelrmpls: Better watch out — the natives will be throwing chocolate bars to the soldiers. 🙂
AGplusone: Then you move on …
geeairmoe2: In terms of prepardedness.
fgherman: lol
fgherman: Kosher ones
AGplusone: If the Russians want to join the fun and come in through the north, no one’s going to say No.
joelrmpls: (Although I think Haifa would be suboptimal; Gaza could be cleared for the necessary…
joelrmpls: …facilities by the time the ships arrived.
AGplusone: Haiffa is figuerative
joelrmpls: I know. 🙂
fgherman: Ahh, 2 birds with one stone.
AGplusone: The point is: you clean out the area
joelrmpls: But I am trying to get a picture for how you think that the area *might* be cleaned out…
AGplusone: Stop off in Bagdad on the way
joelrmpls: …by conventional forces, and how many you think it would take.
geeairmoe2: I actually so some airheads suggesting this wouldn’t have happened if we weren’t supportive of Israel.
AGplusone: Say hi to Hassein ….
geeairmoe2: Heard some airhead. My fingers are fading fast.
joelrmpls: Baghdad would be a hard nut to crack. Not impossible, mind you.
AGplusone: Was in reach in about 24 hours ten years ago.
joelrmpls: Oh, lots of airheads are suggesting this. Read rasff, if you’ve got the stomach for it.
geeairmoe2: rasff?
joelrmpls: Sure — was in reach. And with the Republican Guard as badly shattered as it was…
fgherman: rec.arts.sf.fandom
joelrmpls: …even Dupuy was saying that the casualties of a ground assault would be huge.
AGplusone: And the Republican Guard shattered pretty quickly.
AGplusone: yeah, well, lots of folk said casualties would be heavy.
joelrmpls: And that’s just Baghdad.
AGplusone: We’ll never know, will we?
AGplusone: And that took, what, 100 hours?
fgherman: If we’d been more supportive of Israel, this wouldn’t have happened.
AGplusone: and a preparatory bombardment of what, two months?
joelrmpls: Sure. But an incompetent enemy, led by a military nutcase, isn’t the worse opposition to face.
geeairmoe2: Whats the possiblity of one wellplaced nuke bringing the other countries around?
AGplusone: Who said any of the dictators are not military nutcases, all of them?
AGplusone: Do any of them have the German general staff handy?
joelrmpls: Oh, I think that the military dictator of Pakistan, for example, has apparently got some riffs.
AGplusone: Or the Imperial Japanese General Staff, hardened by conquering most of China.
joelrmpls: Thankfully, the German General Staff was handicapped by the Fuhrer.
AGplusone: We don’t need nukes, unless Pakistan is stupid enough to employ them against us.
AGplusone: And I don’t think Pakistan will last that long.
joelrmpls: And, to take another example, the Syrians have gotten a lot better since 1967, as…
joelrmpls: ….they demonstrated in 1973.
AGplusone: so ….
joelrmpls: As to the nukes, my guess is that if Kabul and Islamabad go, and the US expresses regret…
AGplusone: Are they going to stand up against us, the Brits, the French, the Israelis …
joelrmpls: …only for the necessity, that’s all it would take for surrender of all the countries on the list.
AGplusone: the Turks
SAcademy: Nite, all. Gotta run
joelrmpls: The French won’t mobilize to invade anybody — at most, they’ll send a couple of active divisions.
SAcademy has left the room.
joelrmpls: Night, ginny.
fgherman: Is having the French a help or a hindrance?
AGplusone: Maybe so … maybe not. A couple armored divisions will help. The French aren’t a great army
AGplusone: good at surrendering
joelrmpls: Oh, I dunno — they surrender real, real purty.
joelrmpls: Damn. You beat me to it.
fgherman: (lol)
AGplusone: But we can use the foreign legion
geeairmoe2: One wag said: The French don’t care if Americans are killed, but when their own people die …
AGplusone: We used it in Desert Strike
geeairmoe2: … French were among those killed in the towers.
AGplusone: Exactly, they may have to go along.
joelrmpls: Sure. But just, randomly, assuming that we can beat any army by matching numbers of divisions…
AGplusone: I don’t assume anything.
geeairmoe2: There was a real good, utterly obscene comment about the French. Wish I could remember it.
geeairmoe2: The fight with their feet and f**k with their face, I think it was.
joelrmpls: Ok. I’ll stop blueskying numbers now.
JudyjediJudy has entered the room.
AGplusone: But I don’t assume that anything Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or anyone else ….
fgherman: Welcome Judy
AGplusone: Hi, “filly”?
JudyjediJudy: Hi Felicia.
joelrmpls: That’s “Mommy” to you, young lady!
fgherman: That’s “Mom” to you.
JudyjediJudy: Okay , Okay.
geeairmoe2: I had an uncle always telling DeGaulle jokes to me because I was born in France.
joelrmpls: *whap!*
Merfilly8 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Stephanie.
geeairmoe2: No, I’m not French. Army brat.
AGplusone: We’re fighting WW III against the middle east
geeairmoe2: My favorite joke was: DeGaulle died today. He got hit by a speedboat while trying to walk on water.
fgherman: Hi Stephanie
AGplusone: started by talking about ‘pioneer spirit’ and is it dead, and transitioned into this
JudyjediJudy: (lol)
Merfilly8: Hello all
Musiquelle26 has entered the room.
AGplusone: I read some of RAH’s letters to Campbell in Grumbles, ca. December 41, and on …
Merfilly8 has left the room.
AGplusone: and had to wonder what his feelings would be.
geeairmoe2: Same outrage, I’d guess.
geeairmoe2: Immedietly look for some way to help the war effort.
Musiquelle26 has left the room.
AGplusone: Is there really any choice in what our response should be here?
JudyjediJudy: Nope.
AGplusone: Do we just cosmetically engage in a reprisal and go back to business …. as usual, and wait for the
AGplusone: next time?
AGplusone: Or do we actually deliberately set out to replace governments that support terrorism?
geeairmoe2: I like a big, showy splash that makes any potential fence-sitters think REAL hard.
joelrmpls: I think we take a “middle course”. I think we replace the Taliban, and make some noises.
AGplusone: “Why do today, what you can put off to tomorrow?”
AGplusone: I think we’ll do that unless we continue to send outraged letters to shrub
DJedPar: Shrub?
AGplusone: Really outraged letters.
AGplusone: Bush, Jr.
joelrmpls: And I think that we institute a whole bunch of “domestic security” precautions…
joelrmpls: … that are the equivalent of closing all Sbarros in Israel.
geeairmoe2: Cut back on that ‘Shrub’ bit or you’ll get an outraged letter from me. 🙂
AGplusone: aka “Dazed and confused” … I feel like a republican in 41, thinking I have to close ranks on the
AGplusone: traitor to my class.
Musiquelle26 has entered the room.
joelrmpls: I think he’s going to have to live with that, just like “Landslide Lyndon” did.
AGplusone: 🙂
joelrmpls: As to what we should do, I’ve been clear on that, and don’t need to repeat it.
DJedPar: Where is Piaf when you need her?
geeairmoe2: Okay, instead of what SHOULD we do, what WILL we do?
geeairmoe2: Predictions.
joelrmpls: As I said: I think what we will do is engage in a military operation that might:
AGplusone: I hope, pray we do what we should do.
joelrmpls: a) get bin Laden
geeairmoe2: (I feel like McLughlin)
joelrmpls: b) destabilize the Taliban.
joelrmpls: and, and most c) occupy Afghanistan.
joelrmpls: I think that the other terrorist nations will, at worst, suffer some economic sanctions.
joelrmpls: And diplomatic ones, too.
fgherman: Alas
joelrmpls: “We’ve recalled our Ambassador, Mr. Assad. Now you’ll tremble!”
joelrmpls: “And today, my fellow Americans, I’ve sent a stiff note to Muamar Ghaddffi.”
AGplusone: I do not think it makes military sense to do (c) unless you remove the threats to your rear and flanks
geeairmoe2: I think that pretty well nails it. Will it be enough.
AGplusone: and that means Syria, Iraq, and probably Pakistan.
joelrmpls: Agreed. but I’m not talking about what makes military sense, but what I think we’ll do.
AGplusone: Unless there’s a coup in Pakistan.
geeairmoe2: For me, the two unknows seem to be: Do we have the will to do?
AGplusone: We cannot do that. Powell will not allow it.
geeairmoe2: And will the fence-sitters come quickly to our side.
joelrmpls: 50-50, the agreement to overflights will trigger that, assuming that we use the airspace.
AGplusone: Unless Powell gets the ducks in a row, there will be no invasion of Afghanistan …
joelrmpls: Will it be enough? Enough for what?
joelrmpls: Shut down the Arab terror network? Nah.
geeairmoe2: How much is the Syria leadership and military tied together. Can we see a coup there?
AGplusone: Overflights aren’t sufficient. We’ll either get nothing but gestures, or we’ll get:
AGplusone: “Well, now we’re going to land troops in Pakistan. Either with us or ‘agin’ us, Pakistan? What’s it
AGplusone: going to be?”
joelrmpls: Felicia just point out that I’m not the only person in the world advocating nuclear strikes.
geeairmoe2: I know Saddem and the Iraqi military are one and the same.
joelrmpls: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010914-87723680. htm
geeairmoe2: I’ll join that list.
AGplusone: I’m sure Jerry Falwell is advocating strikes too, Joel; but Jerry IIRC had his daddy’s congressman
AGplusone: pull him off the boat into Inchon Harbor.
TAWN3 has entered the room.
joelrmpls: Actually, Jerry Falwell isn’t. He explains that the problem is all the abortion-advocating lesbians.
TAWN3: Hi all
AGplusone: Hi, Tawn … welcome to the WW III in the middle east sipping and chowder club
DenvToday: Hello Tawn
DJedPar: Hi Tawn
fgherman: Hello Tawn
AGplusone: nice to have someone who’s going to have to do it with us. They call you up yet, Captain?
TAWN3: No, not yet.
TAWN3: Expect to be though.
fgherman: Anything that we can do to help?
TAWN3: Give blood.
TAWN3: 🙂
fgherman: Will do
joelrmpls: Red Cross says to call this week; I checked this morning.
Musiquelle26: I was asked to come back next week, with an appointment at the blood center
TAWN3: Yes, response has ben good all over the country.
fgherman: Especially with those “cold, unfeeling New Yorkers”
joelrmpls: The US culture gives good warmth, at least in a crisis.
AGplusone: It was nice to know that the Philly Red Cross immediately shipped our blood north to NYC on 9/11
joelrmpls: That’s a virtue, but it’s not the only virtue needed, right now.
Musiquelle26: I stand among the awed that our country does work well in times of crisis.
AGplusone: Forgetting for a moment that you’re a reserve officer, what do you think the response should be, Tawn?
TAWN3: It’s our strength.
Musiquelle26: I’m too young to remember anything approaching the unity I have seen lately.
AGplusone: Is it time to put an end to terrorist governments in the Muddle East?
fgherman: It’s been along time since we’ve needed to be this united.
Musiquelle26: Muddle fits
TAWN3: In my personal opinion, yes.
geeairmoe2: The U.S. is like brothers who will wail upon one another, but God help some outsider doing it.
fgherman: Way past time
AGplusone: Yes, I mistyped, corrected, and then retyped the error.
joelrmpls: In other news, Iran has closed its border with Afghanistan.
Musiquelle26: good
joelrmpls: They feel that they have enough Afghani refugees, already.
geeairmoe2: To keep out refugees.
AGplusone: Oh, yeah … the Imanis are saying: “Count us out of this!”
joelrmpls: Yup — they’re buddies, you see, but not that kind of buddies.
TAWN3: Is Afghan Shii?
AGplusone: We’ll send them arms … if we can get away with it.
TAWN3: I suppose I should know that, hadn’t thought to find out before
geeairmoe2: Whichever is more radical, Shii or Suni, that’s Afghanistan.
Musiquelle26: I don’t think so
joelrmpls: Mainly Sunni; about 15% Shiites.
joelrmpls: “Religions: Sunni Muslim 84%, Shi’a Muslim 15%, other 1%” www.cia.gov
AGplusone: Shii down south in the marches that Kissinger and Bush left to hang.
TAWN3: Ok. I usually think of Persians as Shiite
AGplusone: marshes
joelrmpls: Persians are, largely, Shiite.
joelrmpls: Afghans are sort of Persian Lite.
joelrmpls: “Less cultured, more violent.”
joelrmpls: I’ve got to go make dinner now; later, all.
AGplusone: later
TAWN3: Shiites (Persians) say the Arabs broke the chain of succession with the seventh “ruler”
joelrmpls has left the room.
fgherman: Good night all. I’ve got to help him make dinner.
TAWN3: So, in a strict sense, by definition, Shiite is the more politically radical
fgherman has left the room.
Musiquelle26: On a semi-related note, what happened with the trials the Taliban was holding of those
TAWN3: But that’s different
Musiquelle26: relief workers?
JudyjediJudy: I’m leaving.
JudyjediJudy has left the room.
AGplusone: Which ones? the UN types?
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Or the indigenious citizens?
geeairmoe2: There have been veiled threats to retaliation against foriegners.
Musiquelle26: THe ones who allegedely advocated Christianity, The UN type
TAWN3: Hey Joel, that was good! Persian lite. 🙂
AGplusone: UN evacuated yesterday … all of them.
Musiquelle26: I have not had ten minutes to myself until this evening, unfortunately
AGplusone: How’s everyone, Stephanie?
AGplusone: {or all that could get out}
AGplusone: Ebon?
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
Musiquelle26: Paula’s still doing well, no more treatments, Kevin’s recovering froma torn calf, and the
Musiquelle26: babies are yard apes now
AGplusone: Good.
AGplusone: a remission then, I take it?
Musiquelle26: We’ll know for sure in a few weeks when she does her post check-up
AGplusone: crossing fingers
Musiquelle26: But it looked favorable on the end-treatment biopsy
TAWN3: Did anyone read L. Niel Smith’s commentary the day of the attack?
AGplusone: I haven’t. You have a link?
DenvToday: Do you have a link?
TAWN3: Someone posted it on the Heinleiners list, I’ll dig it up and send it to you
AGplusone: okay ….
DenvToday: tyvm
TAWN3: Basically, he was predicting that we would all be instantly ruled by a police state
TAWN3: immediately as a result of the attacks.
Musiquelle26: I have a question, and I hope no one gets upset, but I’m trying to catch impressions
TAWN3: It was divorced from reality IMHO
Musiquelle26: What was everyone’s first, non-thought reaction?
geeairmoe2: Some libertarians may have made a serious PR blunder bringing that up so fast after the bombing.
TAWN3: We were at war.
AGplusone: Funny, tho … he just sent out a take-off on Harry Bellefonte’s Day-Oh, called ….
geeairmoe2: Made it look like all they cared about was their own personal needs.
geeairmoe2: And nothing for 5,000 innocent dead.
AGplusone: “The Pay Back Song” ….
AGplusone: Some libertarians need to have their heads spaced, which is why I ain’t one.
AGplusone: Pearl Harbor, Filly.
TAWN3: And timed David, don’t forget the timing.
AGplusone: That too
TAWN3: Yeah, I thought Pearl Harbor as well.
geeairmoe2: I was wondering, like with Pearl Harbor lore, how long before someone claims …
AGplusone: Wait until we have the mass funerals.
geeairmoe2: … the government let them bomb the towers for some political reason.
TAWN3: No one has any idea what we are talking about 🙂
AGplusone: Filly knows.
TAWN3: Did anyone see the Father Mike funeral today? That was the most moving service I have ever
TAWN3: seen I think.
Musiquelle26: I had just gotten to work, and the last guy in said “A plane crashed into the WTC”
AGplusone: Head spacing and timing is what you do with a .50 cal. to make sure it doesn’t blow up in your face
AGplusone: when you fire it.
Musiquelle26: I thought he was making a sick joke, but went to pull it up on the internet
DJedPar: Lots of people behave irrationally/improperly in time of crisis.
geeairmoe2: I was thinking spacing and timing had something to do with spark plugs.
AGplusone: My wife woke me up into the middle of it.
Musiquelle26: We listened to AM radio all day at work, because we had no tv coverage
AGplusone: First thought was: Bush is going to get out of the economy mess because of this, then we saw it was
AGplusone: very serious, and oh-oh.
TAWN3: However, you can’t account for operator headspace!
AGplusone: No, you cannot.
TAWN3: Forgat to send that off before.
geeairmoe2: My father, works Physical Security (Customs) at Ft. Hood, called. It was after the second …
geeairmoe2: … plane hit the its tower. What really numbed me was seeing the tower collapse.
AGplusone: Yes, that happened right after I got the first cup of tea into me.
DenvToday: Same here. I thought there would be a gash in the tower and that woudl be it.
DenvToday: When I saw the tower collapse, I got light-headed. Unreal. Couldn’t belive it.
TAWN3: Yes, I saw that live. It was all raher shocking.
AGplusone: And when I saw it pancake I knew there’d be thousands dead.
Musiquelle26: I felt shock, then anger.
AGplusone: a real cold rage
Musiquelle26: yes
AGplusone: and then fear that no one would do anything real about it.
TAWN3: I’m surprised the death count is so low. That says a lot for US construction and society.
AGplusone: And that’s what scares me today.
AGplusone: It does.
Musiquelle26: From what we hear, the evacuation was going rapidly and in a controlled manner
TAWN3: What is that David?
AGplusone: I thought 40k for sure.
Musiquelle26: So did we
TAWN3: I did too.
DenvToday: It’s going to be about 6 thousand dead all told.
AGplusone: The fear that our leaders will piddle fuck around this thing.
geeairmoe2: I was hopefully optimistic, thinking there had been time for many, many to make it out.
Musiquelle26: We overestimated the plane deaths and could not fathom how many in the towers
DJedPar: You are correct AG, unfortunately.
TAWN3: No. I’m afraid of just the opposite David.
AGplusone: Send in a few missles and say: “See, we showed them!”
AGplusone: What opposite, Tawn?
TAWN3: No, no way. Congress and the administration all take this far to serious
AGplusone: A precipitous invasion?
TAWN3: I hope we don’t go to far and stat a universal Jihad.
Musiquelle26: Solid airstrikes accompanied by ground forces is what many here want
TAWN3: I don’t think we will, but….
TAWN3: No, we need to invade.
AGplusone: I think we have to take them one at a time.
AGplusone: “With us, or agin’ us?” Next country: “With us, or agin’ us?” Next country: etc. and ditto.
TAWN3: We need to wipe out the entire structure of terror networks.
AGplusone: We do.
Musiquelle26: Declare an “Enemies of USA list, and check them all off with decisive action
AGplusone: Sure. Just like the old Attorney Generals’ list of organizations.
geeairmoe2: I think it was Wm F Buckley who advocated, take out a known enemey and if they weren’t …
AGplusone: There’s no free speech issue.
AGplusone: They’re not citizens, and there’s a clear imminent danger.
geeairmoe2: … responsible, apoligize and move on to the next enemy.
Musiquelle26: I want to see retribution in the form of military action.
AGplusone: I agree with Buckley for the first time in years.
AGplusone: But no one ever accused him of being unable to think clearly.
TAWN3: once we attack, it will be all out war, terrorists will throw everything they have at us
AGplusone: I want to see an occupation like that of Germany.
TAWN3: once they realize it is “use it or lose it”.
AGplusone: They will.
AGplusone: Just as Hitler landed those subs in North Carolina.
geeairmoe2: The problem with occupation is you provide a target for every little piss-ant radical.
DenvToday: I would rather them throw everything they have at us now rather than ten years from now when they…
DenvToday: …have nukes.
DenvToday: If they had nukes now, they would have used them.
AGplusone: Yes, but … there has to be support for guerrillas from the exterior.
AGplusone: I agree.
TAWN3: No, you can’t occupy Afgan for long. Brits and Soviets found that out.
geeairmoe2: And if you get them all, you don’t need to occupy. But a nice little nuke 🙂
AGplusone: Don’t need to occupy it long, and don’t need to nuke it.
TAWN3: Exactly David.
TAWN3: Taliban is not universally loved in Afghan, and has commited crimes against humanity, such
AGplusone: Get it. Clear out the Taliban, get out, and leave them to their business.
geeairmoe2: One nuke, to underscore our seriousness. Not so much to kill the radicals …
TAWN3: as destroying Bamiyan, which REALLY pissed me off!
AGplusone: Forget about nation building.
geeairmoe2: … as to get the fencesitters formly with us.
AGplusone: NO nukes, unless we have to take out something when we invade.
TAWN3: I agree david, with nation building and aid to follow.
AGplusone: We don’t need to use nukes unless we have a Harry Truman choice.
TAWN3: Or throw them to the Russians!
TAWN3: Say, hey, Putin, thanks for the support, they’re all yours now. LOL
AGplusone: ‘making points’ doesn’t ever, Will.
AGplusone: How do you scare a populance that hasn’t a pot to piss in with a nuke?
geeairmoe2: Making points to those still rational.
AGplusone: There’s no one rational in that country.
TAWN3: David, I disagree about nation building. After we do it, we have to help stabilize it.
TAWN3: Or the same problem will pop up.
AGplusone: Well, I think there’s a possibility that trying to nation build will just turn us into ‘oppressors’
AGplusone: for every tinpot demogogue.
AGplusone: Leave them to their goats ….
DenvToday: I still say we kill from the top down. The traditional way has been to kill thousands of soldiers…
TAWN3: Not do so while occupyinmg. This time, unlike Saudi, Get out.
DenvToday: …and civilians to get to the top dog. Why do that?
AGplusone: I think top down is what we do when we occupy.
DenvToday: Kill heads of state.
AGplusone: Sift out the chaff, and destroy it and then leave.
TAWN3: Half of the problem today., if not more, is because we never left after the Gulf War.
AGplusone: Your village is yours again. See to it it stays that way. Bye.
DenvToday: Ask politely for the terrorists groups in their country. Give them 24 hours. Then ask the guys…
Musiquelle26: Thank you for an echo of opinion, Tawn
DenvToday: …who has replaced the head of state we killed.
AGplusone: I agree with you Denv.
DenvToday: He’ll be remarkably compliant, I’d say.
TAWN3: Sure Musiq.
AGplusone: and after we get two or three refusals, we declare war. Let them sit there looking foolish while we
AGplusone: build up. Send them photos of the building up.
AGplusone: Problem is: how do you get to the leaders when they go to the bush.
TAWN3: David, don’t forget, it’s not just the Taliban. It’s Sudan, probably Yemen, many others, as
geeairmoe2: Sooner or later, nation building or no, we’re going to have to leave, and it would help prevent …
TAWN3: well as states who support it on the side, such as Iran.
DenvToday: Are we ready to get nasty?
geeairmoe2: … having to do it all again if they had something indelible imprinted on their psyche that …
TAWN3: We need to go into many places.
DenvToday: I mean really nasty?
DenvToday: You go after their families.
geeairmoe2: … demonstrates what happen if you fall into bad habits.
AGplusone: I pointed out to Joel my theory. Land in Haifa, and start moving East. Clear out the whole muddle.
DenvToday: Do as we tell you to do or your children get it.
DenvToday: I know that sounds barbaric…
DenvToday: …but is it less barbaric to kill ten thousand soliders to get to thim?
Musiquelle26: But has little effect Denv
TAWN3: Soviet style.
Musiquelle26: In certain cultures, the promise of eternal reward outweighs such mortal insult
geeairmoe2: I mentioned earlier, when I lived in Japan in the early 70’s, how the Japaneese who remembered …
geeairmoe2: … the bomb wlaked on egshells around Americans.
AGplusone: I don’t think you have time to educate the populace. they won’t know what you’re talking about
geeairmoe2: I was a ten-year old kid and they moved out of the way for me.
TAWN3: Well, we had the Sun od, MacArtjur, who played the role to the max geeairmoe.
TAWN3: Sun God.
AGplusone: All they know is what their Iman says.
geeairmoe2: 25 years after the bomb they were respectful to teenage American.
AGplusone: Wasn’t just a bomb, Will?
TAWN3: It’s a Third World country. Backwards. Unfortuneately.
geeairmoe2: Probaly different now, a generation later.
AGplusone: They were soundly beaten, theatre wide.
geeairmoe2: They had had they homeland violated. That made the real impression.
TAWN3: Japan? Yes, and the Emperor bowed down. THAT was humbling.
AGplusone: And it’s a different situation … the homeland violated, exactly.
AGplusone: Same thing with the Germans.
Musiquelle26: I started reading the Koran recently, as I said on the board
AGplusone: We sat there, for fifty-odd years, now.
TAWN3: Afghan is not Japan. Be careful of comparisons except in the most basic, macro sense.
geeairmoe2: If we violate the homeland of friends of terrorists, they’ll remember that.
AGplusone: I agree, but not by simply bombing it.
geeairmoe2: I’m talking about what we do to their supporters.
TAWN3: Third world versus 1st world mentality. Big difference.
geeairmoe2: Get them on our side quickly.
AGplusone: I agree. Nuremburg.
Musiquelle26: And I am have had to put it aside, due to the recent events.
AGplusone: Take them out and shoot them.
geeairmoe2: How do you think Yemen will react to the sight of a mushroom cloud over Afghanistan.
Musiquelle26: No one wants to tolerate even an attempt to become educated about the beliefs
AGplusone: But the problem is going to be: what do we do about the Saudis who have been doing this.
geeairmoe2: Think they’ll stop blocking the Cole investigation?
TAWN3: Well, how about with a Jihad Geeairmoe
AGplusone: Yemen would declare a holy war against us. What do they have to lose?
geeairmoe2: For the Saudis, just destroy all their oil wells.
AGplusone: You don’t scare someone who has nothing with bombs.
TAWN3: Saudis are allies.
geeairmoe2: We’ve got more nukes than the terrorists have friendly countries.
AGplusone: Most are, Tawn, but what about the bin Ladens?
TAWN3: See, this is what I am afraid of, over reaction.
AGplusone: Nukes aren’t going to do shit.
DenvToday: David, I agree.
Musiquelle26: Or worse, the ones suspected of talking out of both sides their mouths?
TAWN3: You don’t destroy saudi oil wells because of a Saudi criminal.
DavidWrightSr: All it would do is create a million new terrorists!
AGplusone: except piss people off.
TAWN3: By the way, we are the ones who want the oil don’t forget.
DenvToday: Besides–we need the oil. We’d be cutting our own throats.
DenvToday: lol hyep
DenvToday: yep
AGplusone: You don’t use a nuke unless you have a Harry Truman choice, do I lose 250,000 men invading.
geeairmoe2: Convince me we won’t lose 250,000 without nukes.
TAWN3: We have the moral highground. We need to keep it. Period.
DavidWrightSr: Tactical nukes against an opposing army? That might be needed.
DenvToday: We discover exactly where the terrorist camps are. We use the Israelis. We find out where the…
DavidWrightSr: But against a populated center just to give them the fear of God. No way.
AGplusone: How can I convince you? 100 hour war against Iraq enough for you?
DenvToday: terrorist leaders are hiding out. We can do this.
DenvToday: Then we go in and get them. We don’t use large invasion forces. We use commandos.
AGplusone: The vaunted Republican Guard melted into the woodwork.
DenvToday: And we don’t ask permission of the countries we enter. We just go in and get th em.
TAWN3: The Republican Guard was smart. they lived to fight another day.
TAWN3: And are still in power.
geeairmoe2: Take out the fund raisers, take out the country’s that offer sancuary.
AGplusone: It didn’t have to be that way. We didn’t have to stop.
TAWN3: Agreed, in many ways David. Except,
geeairmoe2: Put in everyone’s mind, now and forever: support terrorists, get nuked.
geeairmoe2: Give everyone the undeniable incentive to never harbor terrorists.
AGplusone: Love it, the nuke mentality.
TAWN3: I’ve always thouht showing our true honesty to the Russians was a big reason wwe stopped.
AGplusone: True terrorism.
geeairmoe2: Getting the terrorist alone is just half the problem.
AGplusone: To get one, we’ll kill ten thousand.
geeairmoe2: Look at those dancing Palestinians who taught math by, if you kill three jews then four …
AGplusone: Problem is: the nuke kills the ones appalled by the dancing.
geeairmoe2: More terrorists will be born, and our great grandchildren won’t face this problem.
DenvToday: I must be going. Bye everybody. Thanks for the excellent discussion.
geeairmoe2: We left the Gulf War half done, we can’t leave the eradication of terrorism half done.
AGplusone: But you don’t do it with Nukes.
DenvToday has left the room.
geeairmoe2: That’s what I’m talking about when “the will to see it through”.
geeairmoe2: If you can suggest something that can leave a more indeliable impression, I’m with you.
AGplusone: Tell you what, Gee. You agree to ride the Nuke down, and I will think about it.
TAWN3: Bye Denv.
TAWN3: Agree Geeair. Can’t be a half ass job.
TAWN3: Must be all out.
AGplusone: After all, it’s just a little demonstration on an unimportant town or two.
TAWN3: YEE HAH! Slim pickens!
AGplusone: or John Ezra Dalquist
DavidWrightSr: If it would work, I might agree. But it *will not* work. It will just leave…
Musiquelle26: I find myself sensitive to the idea of nukes, I must admit
DavidWrightSr: millions of terrorists around to get us later.
TAWN3: NO NUKES ARE NEEDED. I can’t believe I am hearing this.
DavidWrightSr: *create* millions of terrorists to get us.
AGplusone: exactly: my name is Jose Jimenez, you killed my father: prepare to die.
Musiquelle26: Of all that I have heard, the idea of surgical, commando type strikes fit my idea of just
AGplusone: surgical strikes are a joke
AGplusone: we were doomed by that thinking in Vietnam
TAWN3: Exactly Musiq. Surgical with supporting ground forces. NOT a stupid air war only.
DavidWrightSr: Like the one in Iran to get the hostages out
AGplusone: tea saloon idiots and newscasters
Musiquelle26: I apologize; I have little grounding in the concept of works well
TAWN3: I must sign off for a few moments
Musiquelle26: I just want to minimize how much like them we must go to get the job done
AGplusone: to do it you must land forces and take and hold the ground …
AGplusone: You can’t.
TAWN3: If I can’t sign off before you all quit, good seeing you all!
geeairmoe2: Forgive me for caring so much for the future generations of my country thal I’ll do anything….
AGplusone: See you, Tawn.
TAWN3 has left the room.
geeairmoe2: … ANYTHING to protect them.
AGplusone: No. Doing anything is unforgiveable
Musiquelle26: Killing innocents on large scale, i.e nukes, is wrong
Musiquelle26: tit for tat, so to speak.
ddavitt has entered the room.
geeairmoe2: Innocents don’t harbor terrorists.
AGplusone: We
AGplusone: don’t
AGplusone: nuke
AGplusone: them
ddavitt: Y’all still here? Don’t you have homes to go to?:-)
Musiquelle26: Hey lady…I’m stirring up the hornets nest, I fear
AGplusone: We may invade their land … and if they don’t get out of the way that’s too bad
AGplusone: but
AGplusone: We
AGplusone: don’t
geeairmoe2: Like I said, give me an option that will leave a more indeliable impression.
AGplusone: nuke
AGplusone: them
AGplusone: I’m not looking for impressions
Musiquelle26: Occupation will work, but for how long?
ddavitt: Ah..well, I just put the girls to bed and thought I’d see if there was anyone here
DavidWrightSr: You are overlooking the fact that a terrorist or small group of
ddavitt: As I missed most of the chat earlier.
Musiquelle26: Does the next generation bomb my daughter’s place of work to retaliate for that?
DavidWrightSr: terrorists don’t *have* to have a country’s support.
DJedPar: Gppd Night Jane
Musiquelle26: We’re talking a culture that has centuries of tit-for-tat retribution on all sides
AGplusone: They don’t give a damn about the people with whom they take refuge
AGplusone: I don’t want to impress anyone. I just want to kill the ones who espouse terrorism. If I have to go in
AGplusone: the next week and do it again, then so be it.
AGplusone: But I’m willing to give the ones who do not espouse terrorism the right to live afterwards.
AGplusone: I recognize that most of those people at best are along for the ride.
Musiquelle26: Then we, as a country, must maintain the vigilance, and not slump back into ….
AGplusone: At worst, they’re oppressed by the same bastards.
Musiquelle26: “damn the miltary, we don’t need them anymore” attitude
DJedPar has left the room.
Musiquelle26: There was a strong apathy about the military before the Gulf War, then it became a good thin
Musiquelle26: When I got in, most Gulf War vets were gettng out, and the country didn’t care about us
AGplusone: always the same story, Stephanie
AGplusone: most of the country doesn’t care about anything except filling its rice bowl
AGplusone: just like China
Musiquelle26: What I’m saying so poorly, is I don’t see, even IF we did nuke, that we can get rid of this
Musiquelle26: Perhaps, I’m too defeatist
geeairmoe2 has left the room.
AGplusone: We can’t doing it that way. We get rid of them the same way we get rid of the Nazi … deNazification
AGplusone: that requires occupation
AGplusone: Dave: I think we’re about done. Did you catch the part to edit out. The references to Tawn and Filly
AGplusone: in MI MOSes?
Musiquelle26: I see that part of the point. What I fear is that the violence is inherant to the religious
DavidWrightSr: Got it
AGplusone: Okay.
AGplusone: I think it is.
AGplusone: That doesn’t get solved in a generation.
AGplusone: Like the Crusades
AGplusone: the thing to do is to remove the folk that espouse it
AGplusone: Make that the deterent
AGplusone: Hang them all.
Musiquelle26: Alright. My thick skull just let in the point you were making 🙂
AGplusone: And then watch the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that, ad infinitum
Musiquelle26: I’m an idiot, but at least I admit it
AGplusone: ‘a woman’s work is never done’ You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
AGplusone: Love to them all, Filly
Musiquelle26: And to all of your families
ddavitt: Night everyone.
Musiquelle26 has left the room.
AGplusone: wb, Dave. I think we got it out of our systems. Jane, what next?
DavidWrightSr: Got dropped. I was just about to close it out. Anything I missed?
ddavitt: Topics?
AGplusone: nothing missed. Topics?
AGplusone: Report on Con?
AGplusone: and what else
ddavitt: Con; though it seems like a million years ago
ddavitt: After that we need to firm up some guests
ddavitt: Connie, Mr Kondo, Lois Bujold, Crais…
AGplusone: ah, …
ddavitt: All possibles
AGplusone: Okay, why don’t we just start a schedule
AGplusone: First one to say yes, we go with
ddavitt: Racism chat would be a good one; we touched on that on Thursday
TAWN3 has entered the room.
ddavitt: Bill and Andy were supposed to do that I think
AGplusone: wb, fighting through the ether, Tawn
ddavitt: We can nudge them.
TAWN3: Hi!
AGplusone: talking about schedule
DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:04 P.M. EDT.
Final End Of Discussion Log
