Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
Saturday 05-26-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT
“Humor”–its place and purpose in Heinlein’s Writings
Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
DavidWrightSr: Hi David
AGplusone: Hi, David … madly typing into IM windows
AGplusone: sorry I didn’t get here swiftly
DavidWrightSr: That’s ok. Did you see the log. We are apparently now limited to 100 characters. Bummer
AGplusone: Yes, lowest common denominator, back down to the 81 or 79 limit in AOL rooms
KultsiKN has entered the room.
SAcademy has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi, Ginny
DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Hi Kultsi
KultsiKN: Good evening all!
SAcademy: Hello David
SAcademy: Hello Kultsi
DavidWrightSr: AIM has cut us to about 100 characters. It’s somewhat of a pain.
KultsiKN: The new version?
SAcademy: Really? What happens then? Do we talk in Wagnerian telegraphese?
AGplusone: But if you use a lot of …s when you are trying to express a long thought, you can get through it
AGplusone: No, it’s a little longer still than the 81 characters the AOL (on-AOL) rooms give you.
DavidWrightSr: Version doesn’t matter, except new version lets you type all you wont’ but then won’t send it
DavidWrightSr: wont=want
KultsiKN: Uh-huh.
AGplusone: It rings an alert when you hit the limit … mine alert is a bell
AGplusone: my alert
SAcademy: I suppose that would frustrate some!
AGplusone: and if I type fast I have to stop and wait for all the bells to stop ringing
AGplusone: before I can send
SAcademy: I’ve lost all the sound effects. Have to get someone in to fix them
fgherman has entered the room.
KultsiKN: S’thing good in being a slow typist.
AGplusone: [I did read your log Dave and got here early to test that aspect … was hoping it wouldn’t limit Macs
AGplusone: ]
AGplusone: Hit the limit with that sentence.
DavidWrightSr: Limit appears to be on server, not client.
fgherman: Hello all
AGplusone: Hi, Felicia … did I get it right this time?
KultsiKN: Too popular, I s’pose.
fgherman: Yes you did
AGplusone: great
SAcademy: Good afternoon
DavidWrightSr: Nope. my pc doesn’t give me any warning at all.
AGplusone: Hope you like Three Men in a boat
DavidWrightSr: when I overtype
AGplusone: Maybe you should get a Mac, Dave …
SAcademy: Especially the can of pineapple!
AGplusone:
DavidWrightSr: Heaven forbid 🙂
DavidWrightSr: BRB. got to feed the animals and take my medicine
AGplusone: I loved the pineapple can … and opener
AGplusone: Okay, we’ll start in about five minutes. How’s Joel, Felicia?
fgherman: He’s coming down with the same cold I’ve got, but otherwise, ok
AGplusone: Hope it’s not the same one I fought off Thursday and Friday
OakMan 7111 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Jon, welcome
OakMan 7111: Hello, all
fgherman: Hello Jon
OakMan 7111: Hi David
KultsiKN: Hello, Jon!
SAcademy: Hello
fgherman: I’ve dragged myself away from Cloudmakers
OakMan 7111: Wow, what a warm greeting, thanks
AGplusone: Ahhh … what is Cloudmakers?
OakMan 7111: good. I made a point of being home in time to catch this chat
fgherman: That’s the group following the mystery game that’s part of A.I. the new Spielberg movie
fgherman: very addictive
AGplusone: They’re starting to promo that movie … heavily
fgherman: If the movie is half is good as the mystery is should be a knockout
SAcademy: I can promise you one thing. I am not going to see it.
fgherman: Why not
SAcademy: Hate movies.
fgherman: That’s a good reason
SAcademy: They ruin everything. But they’re good for selling books.
fgherman: I love movies, especially Kubrick movies
AGplusone: Lately there haven’t been a good many good ones.
fgherman: And this is based on a script he developed from the Brian Aldiss story.
fgherman: I don’t think books translate well into movies
KultsiKN: Did they mutilate the story?
fgherman: Short stories on the other hand…
OakMan 7111: I just purchased a “Fine” copy of the 1950 Astounding in which RAH writes of the making
fgherman: Haven’t read the Aldiss story
OakMan 7111: of “destination Moon”
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: Second time I’ve owned that edition – last time it cost me fifty cents
fgherman: Puppetmasters wasn’t half bad
AGplusone: Is there anything in it that isn’t in the collection Requiem, Jon? Like photos, etc.?
AGplusone: Hi, Bill, welcome
DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill
SAcademy: Only the other half.
Heinleinsmof: Howdy
fgherman: At least it wasn’t “Starship Showgirls”
fgherman: Heloo Bill
siannon secundus has entered the room.
SAcademy: I can’t read that color at all.
KultsiKN: Secundus?
OakMan 7111: Welcome Jani!
AGplusone: Better than Project Moonbase, I hope.
fgherman: Hello Jani
AGplusone: You are Jani?
siannon secundus: No I am!
siannon secundus: Hi everyone, assorted hugs and so on 🙂
SAcademy: Bill, that’s even worse.
AGplusone: Okay, let’s start … ’tis close enough to the beginning.
AGplusone: Everyone is sending in black and bold?
OakMan 7111: The cover is a pic – thats the only one
AGplusone: Has any1 read Jane’s piece in the Heinlein Journal about Three Men in a Boat and Number of the Beast?
KultsiKN: Jani, you’re too yellow…
siannon secundus: Yellow?
KultsiKN: Your name is all yellow, at least on my screen.
AGplusone: She suggests that among other things, Number is a tribute to some humor RAH enjoyed.
siannon secundus: Sorry kultsi, I don’t know how to change that …
AGplusone: Including Three Men in a Boat …
OakMan 7111: I think NoB is very very funny
AGplusone: Could we look at that first?
DavidWrightSr: GA
AGplusone: I think the four major characters in Number are take offs on the four characters in Boat … any agree
AGplusone: or dis agree?
AGplusone: Let me describe the four ….
AGplusone: 1. A know-it-all, who has no practical experience … RogerPilkey has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: Hello Roger welcome
AGplusone: 2. A lazy get by with as little effort as possible …
fgherman: Hello Roger
AGplusone: 3. A builder of consensus, mild appearing, harboring a great intelligence RogerPilkey: hi, first time using aim, won’t talk much..
AGplusone: 4. a pugnacious fighter with everyone and everything
AGplusone: Hi, Roger … just finished my summary
AGplusone: In Boat, Harris is the know-it-all … I suggest someone in Number fits that description
Heinleinsmof: Jake
rjjusu has entered the room.
rjjusu: Hello campers
AGplusone: likewise, 2 is George, 3 is “J” or Jay, and 4 is Montmorcey …
AGplusone: Hi, Randy, we’re just starting … with a comparison of characters in Boat and in RAH’s Number of the
AGplusone: Beast
AGplusone: And I agree with Bill, Jake is the equivalent to Harris
siannon secundus: Oh, Hilda’s the dog, then?
Heinleinsmof: And HIlda, doubtless, with Montmorency
AGplusone: Any guesses as to who is whom? Exactly, Jani!
OakMan 7111: dog?
rjjusu: Now Jani, don’t be so …… catty?
siannon secundus: She’s too clever. More like a cat….
siannon secundus: Damn, Randy, beat me to it 🙂
AGplusone: Montmorency … is a fox terrier that fights with everyone, and always starts things
Heinleinsmof: Named after the variety of cherries?
AGplusone: Doesn’t that remind you of Hilda, Sharpie, Corners …
siannon secundus: Cherries?
Heinleinsmof: That’s the only other Montmorency I know — except it’s named for the locale.
AGplusone: Where is Montmorency, Bill?
siannon secundus: I never heard of Montmorency cherries, that’s all
AGplusone: And what kind of cherry …
rjjusu: Given the usual dialog of Space Opera, one with cream on top.
Heinleinsmof: Poitiers? Anjou? Somewhere in southwestern France, I think
AGplusone: [there is, for cat lovers, a nifty little tidbit about Montmorency and a big black tom in Boat]
rjjusu: Anjou = Pears?
OakMan 7111: Isn’t Montmorency also known for its wine?
Heinleinsmof: I don’t recall — brandied cherries is the only association I have for Montmorency.
AGplusone: In any event, any guesses to the identity for the two who are left? Or dis agreement with my theory …
AGplusone: yes/no/bored stiff … indicate by “a” “b” or “c”
fgherman: Silence gives consent
fgherman: a
OakMan 7111: d: wishing I’d had time to check the suggested reading out
siannon secundus: B!
siannon secundus: I read Jane’s essay, but it was ages ago …
AGplusone: You can download Boat Jon …
DavidWrightSr: Me too. Just downloaded it Thursday morning.
OakMan 7111: I know – I had every intention of doing it last night.
DavidWrightSr: I posted the link on the log.
AGplusone: Jane doesn’t identify Hilda as that nasty little fox terrier, but …
KultsiKN: Gimme URL, pls.
[Editor’s Note: Link here for download]
OakMan 7111: (thats how I knew)
OakMan 7111: I do like that description of Hilda – except I’d put ‘brave’ in place of “little”
AGplusone: Turning to “humor” for a moment … why isn’t HSS-WT as cutting as say, for example, Number of the B
AGplusone: when it portrays the role of the taxman, for example …?
siannon secundus: Not as satirical?
AGplusone: That’s part of it, I think … anyone else?
Heinleinsmof: The whole of TNOTB is a romp, whereas in most other books, humor is incidental.
OakMan 7111: I wonder of Heinlein felt more assurred of commercial success and pulled fewer punches?
Heinleinsmof: And he uses different forms of humor, too — his whimsey can be startling.
siannon secundus: Yes, good point Bill
AGplusone: It’s a juvenile, of course, which meant it had to get by Eagle-Eye Dalglish
AGplusone: who might have felt that the most noble act we perform is being tax-givers
AGplusone: 🙂
OakMan 7111: LOL
siannon secundus: Was she English ? 🙂
AGplusone: Not sure … Ginny? Bill?
OakMan 7111: I’ve never thought of what I do on April 14th as “giving”
AGplusone: She was certainly an advocate of English children’s novels, Wind in the Willows, among others
Heinleinsmof: I’ve heard it said she was English,but have no support for that.
AGplusone: But Kip’s world is different from Deety’s, isn’t it?
OakMan 7111: Kip’s world is staid, isn’t it?
Heinleinsmof: Utopian fifties.
AGplusone: different in outrage factor, perhaps, fifties were utopian a bit
AGplusone: Everyone was complacent … the educators so complacent they started tinkering with the basic mechanis
AGplusone: mechanisms
DavidWrightSr: Aside from personalities, were there events in 3men that correspond to NOTB?
siannon secundus: Corkscrew
AGplusone: Yes, and with HSS-WT …
Heinleinsmof: There are actually two views of the fifties — placid utopia versus pressure cooker.
fgherman: I go with pressure cooker myself
AGplusone: but most felt at the time “it was the best of all possible worlds” … at least that’s what we were
AGplusone: told to believe.
Heinleinsmof: Both were true.
OakMan 7111: First ten years of my life – my judgement is skewed towards idyllic
siannon secundus: It seemed OK at the time (I was about four)
AGplusone: So, if you’re outraged with paying taxes, you pay in cash and depend on a very interesting odd deci-
AGplusone: sion from the Tax Court that said you didn’t have to keep records …
DavidWrightSr: Was it ever possible to actually get away with that?
AGplusone: Sure, the guy in the case that went up to the Court
OakMan 7111: pennies?
AGplusone: (pennies in a bucket of axle grease tended to really annoy the IRS, Jon)
Heinleinsmof: Hey, legal tender is legal tender.
DavidWrightSr: You mean, that’s how he paid his taxes ? O:-)
OakMan 7111: thats why you should make sure the grease is boiling….
AGplusone: Right, but as Kip’s dad says, “never knew a skunk welcome at a picnic”
rjjusu: not everything that is legal is right (or smart) and vice versa
SAcademy: I;ve had run ins with the Inland revenue in UK–IRS isn”t the only one that’s that way!
AGplusone: So bundles of bills was what Kip’s dad sent in … which got him a visit from his friendly “I’m from
AGplusone: the gobment and am here to he’p you” agent
siannon secundus: Hehehe Which is worse, SA, ours or yours?
fgherman: As Westlake’s Parker said, “You don’t mess with the Feds.”
Heinleinsmof: There were lots of interesting loopholes in the fifties — remember a film about a revenoo’er come to
Heinleinsmof: audit a family that bartered everything.
AGplusone: I agree: I once was ‘from the gubment and am here to he’p you’ I took it personally.
AGplusone: … of course I was young then …
AGplusone: But, and here’s the question: what does that sort of humor do?
SAcademy: OTOH–ever had an audit?
AGplusone: the poking of mild fun at the IRS …
fgherman: SA, don’t talk dirty
OakMan 7111: Only the CPA kind – and that was a pain but semi-self-inflicted
Heinleinsmof: I think it was more to characterize Kip’s family and background — well outside the box.
SAcademy: Try it sometime.
fgherman: I’ll pass, thank you
fgherman: Rather give birth again
AGplusone: [I once investigated a company run by a former IRS agent … I asked without a subpoena for all his…
SAcademy: Okay. I’m with you, but now and then they insist
siannon secundus: I had the VAT man when I was self-employed … that isn’t nice 🙁
AGplusone: books and records and he then confessed, figuring I had the same powers the IRS had, and settled.]
Heinleinsmof: Obviously not a constitutional lawyer.
AGplusone: Nah, the penalty was that serious … life goes on was his feeling.
AGplusone: wasn’t
AGplusone: Back to my question above–what does the sort of humor we’re discussing do?
Heinleinsmof: Actually, I wonder what power the IRS actually has — it isn’t part of the government, you know.
siannon secundus: Subvert?
AGplusone: perhaps
AGplusone: what else
rjjusu: Reduce
SAcademy: Sense of humor makes you remember whaat is said in the book
AGplusone: … and … what else?
siannon secundus: Take a different perspective
Heinleinsmof: And shakes up peoples’ preconceptions, too — not everybody is in the nuclear family with 2.3 kids, e
Heinleinsmof: etc
AGplusone: What do you mean by “reduce” Randy?
Heinleinsmof: I guess that falls within “subvert”
fgherman: I remember that the more you had read, the more references you’d catch in NOTB
rjjusu: Humor is both a salve and a weapon
DavidWrightSr: Maybe what David means is that such …
DavidWrightSr: jokes tend to make you bypass the real invidiual and replace with a sterotype
DavidWrightSr: invidual=individual
AGplusone: “salve” is a great part of what I’m getting at …
siannon secundus: Reduce to size
fgherman: Say archtype instead of steroetype
OakMan 7111: When I was working in theatre, I developed a theory:
DavidWrightSr: I’m not sure of the difference.
OakMan 7111: Humor suggests that problems can be solved – tragedy suggests they can’t
AGplusone: Except the monkey that was at the end of the line in SiaSL wasn’t laughing … — it does, doesn’t it,
AGplusone: Jon.
DavidWrightSr: As someone said Thursday, humor is a way of coping with problems.
siannon secundus: Archetype is like an original, and stereotype is reducing individuals to a *type*
AGplusone: Maybe it’s the archetypical way of coping?
rjjusu: when someone is reduced by humor, they often have to
rjjusu: face up to the fact that they are not what they seem.
SAcademy: What about the regimented heaven inJOB?
OakMan 7111: archetype is the cookie cutter – stereotype is just another cookie
siannon secundus: No humour in that heaven
OakMan 7111: I laughed constantly in the heaven sequence, jani
KultsiKN: Dis agree, Jani.
AGplusone: I thought there was … Pete and the Sister saw a lot of things as funny
siannon secundus: Oh nice def, Jon
OakMan 7111: 🙂
siannon secundus: Funny to the reader, not to the participants, I meant 🙂
DavidWrightSr: Class vs object ? (OOP)
AGplusone: And he used a bit of humor … “lemme talk to the Spook … ”
Heinleinsmof: Comedy deals with unions; tragedy with separations.
fgherman: Hit the nail on the head Jon
rjjusu: But remember, valid stereotypes have a survival value, while unquestioned ones do not.
AGplusone: which probably dealt with his frustrations.
Heinleinsmof: And “humor” is a reference to medieval medical theory.
Heinleinsmof: Reduces everything to types or humors
OakMan 7111: (I’m wg a paper on OOP right now, David)
OakMan 7111: writing a paper
AGplusone: anyone ever read a book of essays called Homo Ludens?
AGplusone: Ludens=playing
Heinleinsmof: That’s either “playing man” or gay guy with a coughdrop.
OakMan 7111: << resisting urge to ask if it was written by Smith Bros.
rjjusu: A Venusian named Smith?
AGplusone: Writer of that book had a theory that playing, including using humor, was how we essentially coped wit
AGplusone: with everything
OakMan 7111 has left the room.
rjjusu: 2nd Cousin to the Martian Smith
Heinleinsmof: Model-making; a very fundamental human activity.
rjjusu: But that’s what stereotypes are – Models
AGplusone: “The Play’s the thing”
Heinleinsmof: Maybe the humor in such play is in the area where the model doesn’t fit the reality.
OakMan 7111 has entered the room.
AGplusone: I’d agree it’s the place where the real world doesn’t fit the expectation …
Heinleinsmof: Like the guy who heard ?the map is not the territory,” so he shoveled a couple cubic yards of the ter
AGplusone: which is opposite, I think, to your view.
Heinleinsmof: ritory into his van.
rjjusu: Both models and stereotypes are shorthand versions of “reality”.
rjjusu: Good models/stereotypes have value, bad ones do not.
siannon secundus: so what’s “reality”, then?
rjjusu: Third door down from truth….
Heinleinsmof: experience.
OakMan 7111: We all stereotype to some extent as we deal with strangers, especially
siannon secundus: Hmmmm
AGplusone: [author of Homo Ludens, btw, was Johan Huizinga, German published in early 40s is Switzerland]
OakMan 7111 has left the room.
AGplusone: in Switz
Heinleinsmof: Schweiz
siannon secundus: (what is it, David?)
OakMan 7111 has entered the room.
AGplusone: A book of essays, ‘a study of the play element in culture’, Jani
siannon secundus: Thank you 🙂
siannon secundus: Made a note ..
Heinleinsmof: Heinlein wrote quite an unexpectedly large amount of humor
rjjusu: Why unexpectedly?
DavidWrightSr: Why do you say, ‘unexpectedly’?
Heinleinsmof: We just don’t think of him as acomic writer — but he did write quite a bit.
AGplusone: Fact he did, I suggest, gets me to suggest that the ‘humor’ may be what Ginny suggested …
AGplusone: it gets people to remember what he wrote.
fgherman: Heinlein used humor conversationally,
AGplusone: ‘sugar makes the medicine go down’
fgherman: He didn’t set up comedic situations
Heinleinsmof: Also, it’s a good way to burst pretentions.
Heinleinsmof: I’m thinking of the characters in Double Star
AGplusone: For example, Bill, which ones and how … Dak Broadbent writing Acey Wheelright novels?
AGplusone: And POETRY!
OakMan 7111: A very funny book and Smythe is a wonderfully funny character
DavidWrightSr: I loved the family scene in ‘Rolling Stones’ when they twins got home late. Hazel was hilarious
Heinleinsmof: And — I can’t remember her name — Penny? Deflating Larry Smith’s self-pretentions.
OakMan 7111: Penny is right name
Doc4Kidz has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: Hi Doc
AGplusone: Hi, Barry …
fgherman: Hello
Doc4Kidz: hello everyone, I seem to have wandered into the Saturday chat.
SAcademy: I thought that the funniest part of Rolling Stones was the comprison of the development of the rockets
rjjusu: Doc, can you BOLD your type?
AGplusone: {And would you like a copy of the log thus far Barry}
Doc4Kidz: done
DavidWrightSr: Hi Doc. Welcome
Doc4Kidz: thanks, David
Doc4Kidz: (both Davids)
SAcademy: Hello, doctor.
DavidWrightSr: rockets vis a vis automobiles?
Doc4Kidz: Hello
OakMan 7111: Barry – I’m Jon Ogden when I am not a tree – the Society’s webman
DavidWrightSr: ‘three whole generations were slaves to them’ (autos that is)
SAcademy: It’s an essay which runs about two pages toward the start of the book
Doc4Kidz: nice to “meet” you Jon.
TAWN3 has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: likewise
AGplusone: Hi, Tawn …
fgherman: Hello Tawn
Heinleinsmof: Goodness, we can almost hold a Board meeting!
SAcademy: A digression while they’re shopping for a ship.
TAWN3: Hello everyone
rjjusu: I’m about to sacrifice a goat to have hellfire and brimstone rain down on AOHell
AGplusone: 🙂
OakMan 7111: Randy – I have a very sharp silver knife I’d gladly let you borrow
AGplusone: Okay, it’s about 55 past the hour, I suggest we take ten, think about what comes next
AGplusone: and resume at 5 past the hour
rjjusu: I thought the discussion about rocketship development showed great engineering insight
AGplusone: Dave, you have the conn … maybe someone will send a log to Tawn while I water Bob
AGplusone: afk
DenvToday has entered the room.
rjjusu: Lookin’ like a full house!
DavidWrightSr: Good crowd tonight. Thursday was a little light.
AGplusone: Hi, Ron, doing a break until 5 past now … free chat til then
siannon secundus: Randy, sacrifices are my bailiwick, dear 🙂
DenvToday: Hello everybody!
DenvToday: Thanks David.
fgherman: Hello Ron RogerPilkey has left the room.
fgherman: Guess gas prices have kept everyone home this week-end
rjjusu: Yes dear, but I’m getting to the point where I so want to learn …… and practice.
DenvToday: Hello fg. Good to see you today.
fgherman: Thanks
KultsiKN: How much in the US, Felicia?
fgherman: Around $1.89 / gal here in Minneapolis
fgherman: whcih is highest it’s ever been here
Heinleinsmof: Send some of that to California.
Heinleinsmof: It’s about 2.18 here.
siannon secundus: Yes Randy … classes are being held, I’ll let you know 🙂
DavidWrightSr: I’m lucky. Here in the south, regular is around 1.47, but I’ve heard that some midwest
DavidWrightSr: places are well over 2.00
rjjusu: Message are too long. AOL are too stupid…
KultsiKN: A quick calculation gives ours about $4.50/gal 🙁
fgherman: I’m home with a cold
DavidWrightSr: You noticed the 100 character limitation I gather 🙂
AGplusone: I actually looked for Bob to water. found him sleeping in the clothes dryer … !!!
rjjusu: Kind of …… wasn’t sure where the breakpoint was. Must be a server “upgrade”
Heinleinsmof: That’s new — it used to be about 450 characters
AGplusone: he’s found a new hideout
SAcademy: Anyone think that those gas prices will overturn the government?
fgherman: Ibuprofen has *finally* kicked in
Heinleinsmof: Give Bob a lint trap.
rjjusu: Dave, he’ll only do that as long as no one turns the dryer *ON*
fgherman: From your mouth to G-d’s ear…
TAWN3: No
fgherman: Sen Jeffords did what he could.
siannon secundus: better the dryer than the washer ..
TAWN3: Americans are upset about it but stupid, estimated record auto travel this weekend. People will pay.
AGplusone: I gotta break him of that habit … afraid someone will actually close the door on him
Doc4Kidz: what, double crossed the voters who elected him as a Republican?
Doc4Kidz: was that admirable?
AGplusone: up to his voters, isn’t it?
rjjusu: Tell Bob to put an “Occupied” sign on the door when he goes in….
AGplusone: Right!
fgherman: Yes, he voted his principles and that’s what the voters on Vermont want him to do
SAcademy: They say that Vermont is different.
Doc4Kidz: they already voted for the Rep, then he changed him mind. Do that before the election if you’re hone
Doc4Kidz: st
siannon secundus: Did they vote for the man or the party?
rjjusu: Depends who you ask
TAWN3: ??????
fgherman has left the room.
Doc4Kidz: some vote party. He misrepresneted himslef to those voters.
AGplusone: They published a chart in the LA Times listing all those in modern times
AGplusone: Had one who crossed and then went back after a few years
OakMan 7111: He took the Republican national Committee’s money and didn’t stay bought – that makes him a bad
TAWN3: They did shorten msg size!
OakMan 7111: politician in RAH’s terms, doesn’t it?
Doc4Kidz: got nothing against the guy. Maybe he does have principles, but…
Doc4Kidz: not kosher that way
rjjusu: Yes, Tawn, and it’s about to drive me crazy
fgherman has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: me, too – suddenly this is like AOL, not AIM
AGplusone: He’s a good example about what RAH writes in How to be a Politician … the Hughes event in California
siannon secundus: But, did he not use the system to change the balance of power?
AGplusone: when Hughes’ CoS didn’t bother to have lunch or even chat with the governor, Hiram Johnson
AGplusone: So did Johnson … Hughes didn’t win California
rjjusu: Actually, I’m not surprised that this happened, because the six sigma members of both parties
rjjusu: are driving away the center.
fgherman: It just shows that Trent Lott has no people skills.
AGplusone: Look at Campbell 6 or 8 years ago … went from Dem to Rep in Colorado
Doc4Kidz: again, nothing particularly against the guy, but not especially admirable, either.
fgherman: Sorry to have opened this can of worms
Heinleinsmof: There is so little substantive difference between the two parties that one can only assume a switch l
SAcademy: Colorado is a swing state.
Heinleinsmof: like that is for personal advantage.
AGplusone: Well, we’re back on again … anyway, Felicia …
fgherman: But I’m no fan of the President-Select
AGplusone: back to humor, Heinlein, Willis and Jerome …
Heinleinsmof: And speaking about Willis — how about the Bouncer in Red Planet?
Doc4Kidz: he could have voted his concience without changing parties at this specific time.
AGplusone: Anyone besides me read Dooms Day Book by Willis, not by William the Bastard?
Doc4Kidz: (ok, enough from me on this)
fgherman: not yet
TAWN3: SAcademy, if people want more affordable gas, they will force govts, including local ones,
AGplusone: Recommend it strongly!
TAWN3: , to stop regulating production and distribution so much
SAcademy: Willis was the result of us getting a tape recorder/
OakMan 7111: Moliere wrote an essay in which he suggested that we laughed whenever we saw human beings
TAWN3: (What I tried to send before.)
OakMan 7111: acting like machines
AGplusone: Was it Moliere who described man as a featherless biped?
OakMan 7111: which is pretty much a nother defintion of stereotype
AGplusone: I.e., a plucked chicken
OakMan 7111: I thot that was Dogbrt, David
AGplusone: Or was that Moliere making a joke about Aristotle?
rjjusu: Stereotype or someone with a “word with ways”?
AGplusone: Who so defined it.
AGplusone: The ‘humor’ in Dooms Day Book is the only thing that keeps you from going nuts reading it, if you’re
OakMan 7111: The example he used was that we laugh at the man who slips on a bannana peel —
OakMan 7111: if he was walking along not watching where he was going
AGplusone: paying attention to the plight of this grad student sent back to the Black Plague.
Heinleinsmof: WAsn’t that 150 years after the Domesday book?
AGplusone: Yes, at least
AGplusone: Domesday Book by William started when he consolidated his newly-won kingdom
AGplusone: Black Plague hit England about 1248 or so, IIRC
Heinleinsmof: The big plague was 1360-66
Heinleinsmof: They had minor plagues about every 30 years for 200 years.
rjjusu: So how did a Martian bouncer get a book published on earth?
fgherman: Definitely a 14th century thing
AGplusone: You’re right, Ginny … the Black Plague was 13XX
AGplusone: So it’s 250 at least
rjjusu: I mean, did Willis just send an interplanetary fax?
Heinleinsmof: E-mail
Heinleinsmof: We’re getting Martian e-mail capability, you know.
Heinleinsmof: Sometimes I feel I’m living in a Greg Egan novel
SAcademy: Drudge reported that.
rjjusu: Not through AOL you aren’t – you know how long those martian words can be….
AGplusone: Are there any stories by RAH that anyone can think of that the ‘humor’ is the only thing that keeps
AGplusone: your reading because the subject matter described is otherwise so distressing that you might not in
AGplusone: the wrong mood keep reading?
Heinleinsmof: “My Object All Sublime,” “Our Fair City.”
DavidWrightSr: Never!!
Heinleinsmof: “Jerry Was a Man.”
rjjusu: I finally got a copy of My Object All Sublime last week.
SAcademy: Why bother?
AGplusone: I think Jerry is an excellent example!
DavidWrightSr: OK. I admit that there are some of his works that I haven’t read 30 times 🙂
Heinleinsmof: It’s definitely one of those you have to laugh because the subject is so worth crying over.
AGplusone: Slavery of sentient animals and you kill them when they wear out, despite their pleas that they can
rjjusu: I’m a completist, and like to make my own judgements, but as usual, RAH was more correct than me….
AGplusone: still work … still think, love, etc.
AGplusone: And they voice those pleas to you in the “King’s English” ….
DenvToday: I
Heinleinsmof: Did you get the magazine version?
DenvToday: oops
Heinleinsmof: With the damon knight illustration?
rjjusu: No, I got the reprint version in Beyond the End of Time
rjjusu: Edited by Frederik Pohl
Heinleinsmof: I have trouble remembering which one of the three “stinkeroos” didn’t get re-collected. I believe it
Heinleinsmof: must have been “Pied Piper.”
AGplusone: Another other stories that must have ‘humor’ to be at least tolerable, depending on your mood?
Heinleinsmof: “The Man Who Travelled in Elephants.”
SAcademy: That’s crying stuff not laughing!
Heinleinsmof: In “The Menace from Earth,” the humorous situations make us like Holly.
AGplusone: The ‘tragic’ in Elephants is not the man dying, but his having lost his wife … pathos, ending in
Heinleinsmof: But the humor gentles the tears.
DenvToday: mof, very good point. I love that story…so beautifully written. But still, the tears always come.
AGplusone: comedy!
AGplusone: Comedy because he dies!
fgherman: I’ve never read the last page without tears
AGplusone: And joins her again …
Heinleinsmof: Comedy deals with unions and reunions.
Heinleinsmof: (I mean comedy as a literary form)
AGplusone: I agree, that one and “The Long Watch” Felicia
Heinleinsmof: But “The Long Watch” is a tragedy — deals with separations.
Heinleinsmof: Same for “Green Hills”
Heinleinsmof: Comic catharsis wouldn’t have done anything for those two stories.
DavidWrightSr: And ‘Tale of the Adopted Daughter’
AGplusone: Something happens in “The Long Watch” particularly that deals with what comedy does, same for “G Hill”
AGplusone: and Tale of the Adopted Daughter
siannon secundus: IWFNE is a separation, at the end ..
rjjusu: Yes, “The Long Watch” is the one that always gets me, when I read it. But it is a great story…
rjjusu: Greater love hath no man ……
TAWN3: What is that David?
AGplusone: Recall the moment in The Long Watch where it doesn’t matter to him …?
OakMan 7111: The three go together somewhere, janni
AGplusone: where he’s at peace with his fate?
siannon secundus: Not sure, that’s what always upsets about it, Jon
TAWN3: How is that like comedy
rjjusu: The balm of gilead – acceptance
TAWN3: ?
AGplusone: Same thing with Rhysling … “This is Rhysling ON Watch, stand by to record”
Heinleinsmof: I don’t think that’s comc — it’s tragic transcendence.
Heinleinsmof: “a man’s a man for a’ that.”
TAWN3: Heroism maybe.
Heinleinsmof: the n
AGplusone: Those two portions are specifically what I was referring to when I mentioned what Jerome did in that
OakMan 7111: If there really is an afterlife, then everything’s a comedy – and the funniest thing is:
Heinleinsmof: noble aspect of gallantry.
OakMan 7111: we don’t know it
AGplusone: bit of the poetry of the Night, …
TAWN3: The Grand illusion
OakMan?
OakMan 7111: I think thats where I’m going, yes
DavidWrightSr: ‘ we don’t know it’ Heinlein said something like that in ‘Beyond this Horizon’
DavidWrightSr: when Mordan and Felix expected to die.
OakMan 7111: I think every original thought I think I have turns out to be a rephrase of RAH
TAWN3: RAH said it a lot, in a lot of places.
DenvToday: Oak, perhaps that’s the “moral” in Job.
AGplusone: Right, Jon … the biggest joke in Jurgen:ACOJ is when the god invents heaven and hell and populates
AGplusone: it with God and Satan, the angels and devils, to satisfy Jurgen’s grandmother.
AGplusone: … and for no, IMI, NO, other reason … whimsy
Heinleinsmof: There’s a good “and that reminds me…” to that story in The Silver Stallion. Donander becomes a god
Heinleinsmof: in the norse pantheon by mistake.
siannon secundus: That’s in Hoag, too, to an extent
Heinleinsmof: Yes. I can’t help but see the Heaven in Job as a combination of Captain Stormfield and Jurgen.
DenvToday: Appropos of absolutely nothing, I watched “The Right Stuff” the other day with friends. The…
AGplusone: Right … the heaven Cabell created wasn’t all that funny … the one Twain did was hilarious.
AGplusone: There’s RAH choosing humor again.
OakMan 7111: I saw some of it as what was preached at Covenant Methodist Church while I was growing up and RAH
DenvToday: …character played by Royal Dano sings The Prayer for Travelers several times when pilots are…
OakMan 7111: saying “be careful what you wish for.”
Heinleinsmof: Much the same kind of humor as in Captain STormfield.
DenvToday: ….killed. I kept thinking of RAH’s addition to the prayer.
Heinleinsmof: It was a wonderful verse addition, wasn’t it.
DenvToday: Indeed!
AGplusone: The humor makes it stick in your mind (it is a wonderful addition) …
AGplusone: Jane, if you’ve read the posts, questioned one thing about Jerome … whether his poetic passages
AGplusone: were serious. anyone have a thought on that?
AGplusone: Here we have a low-brow writer catering to a low-brow audience … what is all that poetry doing in
AGplusone: his book?
AGplusone: Simply Victorian sentimentality?
AGplusone: Anyone?
Heinleinsmof: Partly it was the magazine conventions of the day. Remember this was before low-brow literature real
Heinleinsmof: ly took off.
Heinleinsmof: Pop culture dates from about 1895, with the start of Argosy.
AGplusone: But … Isn’t sticking a florid passage into a prosaic book an attention-getting device, too.
AGplusone: Just as humor is … ”
Heinleinsmof: Well — it is humor, playing with the distinction between naturalistic prose writing and florid poeti
Heinleinsmof: writing.
AGplusone: Jerome didn’t put one in every chapter … some of it is serious, however, I’d maintain.
AGplusone: For example, clearly, that bit about King John signing the Magna Carta … inserted for schoolchildren
Heinleinsmof: CAbell did that — he called it “contrapuntal” writing. And of course, rAH did that, too, in TEFL.
AGplusone: And the example Jane picked, the bit about the worn out pauper mother drowning herself …
siannon secundus: I have to go, ladies and gentlemen – thank you for a fascinating discussion, as always 🙂
AGplusone: totally exhausted and unwilling to go herself to the ‘poor house’ …
OakMan 7111: bye jani
siannon secundus: Goodnight, all ..
KultsiKN: See ya, Jani
DenvToday: Bye siannon!
Doc4Kidz: goodnight. I’m going to go, too. Bye, and thanks.
AGplusone: It is pathos, perhaps even approches bathos, but I think he’s seriously concerned about here.
siannon secundus has left the room.
Heinleinsmof: Depends on what you mean by “serious.” It sounds more as though Jerome periodically launched into
Heinleinsmof: set pieces
Doc4Kidz has left the room.
fgherman: g-bye
markjmills has entered the room.
fgherman: Hello
AGplusone: HI, Mark how’s NYC today?
Heinleinsmof: Even though the set piece may be perfectly serious in itself, it produces a humorous effect by contra
Heinleinsmof: st
DenvToday: Hello!
markjmills: Hi, all — missed you in the last month.
AGplusone: Yes, it does, doesn’t it, even more ‘attention-getting’ therefore?
markjmills: Hah — I’m in Florida, soaking up sun…
Heinleinsmof: URK — can you get rid of the gray background, Mark
TAWN3: Bye Jani
fgherman: More like soaking up sunset at this hour
markjmills: Better?
KultsiKN: Bold it.
Heinleinsmof: Better — and would you bold? Thanks
DenvToday: I’ve always found soaking up gin to be more productive 🙂
markjmills: Hmmmmm….
markjmills: There we go…
fgherman: That’ll work
markjmills: So what’s on topic — still humour?
Heinleinsmof: Arrrrh! — bite the parrot, maytee
AGplusone: Still humor, Mark …
markjmills: Gin? Someone mention gin?
OakMan 7111: I’m more of a rummy, myself
markjmills: Any port in a storm…
Heinleinsmof: Gin and rummy have been known to go togheter…
DenvToday: Oak, I can certainly respect that.
Heinleinsmof: I sherry your sentiments.
markjmills: Tequila’s more appropriate down here.
OakMan 7111: I wonder which Jani likes, I suppose we canasta.
KultsiKN: Both are known sources of questinable humor.
markjmills: Bad puns get lashes! God ones get other things.
AGplusone: On humor, Mark, what single thing about RAH’s humor sticks in your craw or mind …
OakMan 7111: The only good pun is a dead pun
AGplusone: or we could try going around the room …. [watchout] …
fgherman: I’ll abstain from this
markjmills: Hmmm…I’m rather uncritical of the Master on the humor side — I tend to enjoy him even at his corni
OakMan 7111: “Well, just don’t make a hobbit of it”
markjmills: Ooops…limit on sentences?
KMurphy165 has entered the room.
OakMan 7111: Hello KM
fgherman: Hello
KMurphy165: Greetings.
markjmills: Hi
DenvToday: There is one title (short story) that always gives me a belly laugh. Any guesses?
DenvToday: Hi KM!
markjmills: W Also Walk Dogs?
Heinleinsmof: Gentlemen, be seated?
DenvToday: Yes!
OakMan 7111:
TAWN3: Yes
DenvToday: Gold star for mof!
markjmills: That’s a great one.
AGplusone: Gbs? George Bernard Shaw …
DenvToday: mark, also a great title.
AGplusone: Wonder if that was intentional?
Heinleinsmof: Oh, I’m sure it was.
AGplusone: … naw …
AGplusone: Dave Wright (warning was given) what’s the most salient point about RAH’s humor sticks with you?
OakMan 7111: I shall not give in to temptation…I shall not…
markjmills: Wilde said do…
markjmills: Fear No Evil, man!
AGplusone: Randy Jost is up next ….
rjjusu: I thought Yoda said Do or do not, there is no try
TAWN3: Yes, there is lots of humor in that.
DenvToday: rjj, you must remember that Yoda had a man’s hand up his um…back.
fgherman: And Miss Piggy’s voice
rjjusu: Let’s not resurrect that IRS thread …..
AGplusone: Assuming Dave is watering his lawn, you’re up Randy …. 🙂
DenvToday: Very true.
AGplusone: Ron is up after Randy …
rjjusu: I think the thing I like most about Heinlein’s humor is its “naturalness” … it doesn’t seem forced
AGplusone: Then Mark, then Jon Ogden …
rjjusu: and it always fits the situation.
AGplusone: By fits the situation, give an example, please …
rjjusu: There are several touching, yet humorous moments in Double Star
rjjusu: Even when Lorenzo is in funny situations, you can sense the man behind the mask in his responses.
Heinleinsmof: Gentles, there is a matter I must take care of, so I take my leave of you. Take care.
rjjusu: The comments about Martians always smelling like Penny’s perfume, etc.
OakMan 7111: Bye Bill
AGplusone: The politcian who figures doing what a politician always does … stop and kiss babies … can’t be
AGplusone: wrong?
Heinleinsmof: Ciao.
TAWN3: Bye Bill
Heinleinsmof has left the room.
rjjusu: CYA Bill
SAcademy: Nite, Bill
AGplusone: ‘staying in character’ so to speak?
rjjusu: I think so, but more than that.
DavidWrightSr: Made you feel part of the family
rjjusu: He is really trying to reconcile who he is, with who he seems.
AGplusone: My dad figured that stimulating my cerebral cortex by causing flow of blood away from my butt …
DenvToday: lol
DavidWrightSr: Ignore last. I was trying to describe RAH’s humor. ‘casualness’. Made you part of family
AGplusone: He is … reconciling …
AGplusone: what he admires with what he was, he obviously admired his father and figures he really doesn’t
AGplusone: measure up to dad.
rjjusu: When a politician is representing others, where does the politician
rjjusu: stop and the person begin?
AGplusone: Where he stops being Larry Smith and becomes Bonforte?
AGplusone: Is that a joke in the book … or humor?
rjjusu: Yes, especially if your constituents want one thing, but who you ARE says No
markjmills: Sorry — shoot, phone call, BBS.
AGplusone: see you back soon Mark
OakMan 7111: bye mark
rjjusu: Not sure it is a joke, or just the many layers of excellent writing.
DenvToday: We talked about “contrapuntal” before. That’s one aspect of RAH’s humor I love.
rjjusu: Looks like Denv has received the ‘punt and is starting his run….
AGplusone: Ron, please give it a shot: what sticks out the most for you?
DenvToday: For instance, The Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail in TEFL…
AGplusone: uh-huh … /ga
DenvToday: We have that in contrast to the poignant episodes in the book
DenvToday: Even when Lazarus is at his lowest…close to suiciding…
DenvToday: There’s always a smart-aleck quality lurking just below the surface.
DavidWrightSr: When it was written, Juan’s comment on having to leave his earrings at home was hilarious. …..
DavidWrightSr: Nothing funny today
AGplusone: Much like Zebbie in Number and Harris in 3Men … Zac is funny in “If this Goes on … ”
AGplusone: So is Smitty in Red Planet …
AGplusone: in as serious a matter as hiding their guns from the schoolmaster
rjjusu: Ron, what part of Denver are you in? I tried to send you a private message, but you are unavailable
DenvToday: Really? I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that.
DenvToday: I’
OakMan 7111: Heinlein usually centers his humor around characters that we love. “Tex” is much funnier than
DenvToday: oop
OakMan 7111: Stinky Burke
DenvToday: I’ll fix that.
rjjusu: I just realized that the Education degree that Zeb received may have come from USU
AGplusone: Is there anyone particularly funny in Cat ?
rjjusu: that explains a lot. 🙂
DenvToday: I’ve fixed the privacy preferences. Thanks for pointing that out.
DavidWrightSr: Lots of funny in Cat. putting limburger in the ac.
DavidWrightSr: for example.
AGplusone: Besides Marcy and her hemroids … the traffic controller with a bad temper …
AGplusone: not that I think of it.
AGplusone: now
KMurphy165: USU?
OakMan 7111: I don’t think of Friday as being very funny either.
AGplusone: Tawn, you want to give it a shot?
DenvToday: Can any of us forget that Lummox has been “raising John Thomases” for a long time?
rjjusu: Utah State University, in Logan, UT, where I am and where the beginning of NOTB takes place
DenvToday: Star Best, of course.
TAWN3: Well, I’ve been thinking about it.
AGplusone: Friday is funny only if you get the final joke: tend to your own garden, just as in Candide.
KMurphy165: The court scenes om Star Beast are fast moving and funny. Good command of pace and timing.
TAWN3: I don’t think of Heinlein as humor. It is strange,
DavidWrightSr: Some of the ads in Baton Rouge? were hilarious as I recall
TAWN3: Because I see a lot of things being pointed out,
TAWN3: Yes, Star Beast has a lot of laughs in it.
TAWN3: And other things
AGplusone: … and … go on, Tawn, please.
TAWN3: But in general, to me,
TAWN3: the bigger message always is more important.
TAWN3: Now that I think of it, the one place I do equate RAH with humor,
TAWN3: is in court room scenes. Those always give me a great laugh
rjjusu: Humor greases the message? Makes it easier to swallow the pig?
AGplusone: But is humor an adjunct to communicating the ‘bigger message’?
TAWN3: and I can’t think of anybody who does it better.
AGplusone: [courtroom scenes are funny to me too]
OakMan 7111: Why did RAH feel he had to label JOB? was he afraid we wouldn’t get the joke?
rjjusu: Probably ‘cuz you don’t have to be there anymore!
KMurphy165: Humor is always the medicine to make the tragic easier to take.
AGplusone: but lawyer jokes that lawyers tell each other are like doctor jokes: require long winded explanations
TAWN3: Yes, the court room scens
TAWN3: From Star Beast to IWFNE (judges) to SiaSL
TAWN3: which is definitely the best
TAWN3: This is because RAH truly understood the nature of society and
KMurphy165: IWFNE?
TAWN3: and the legal and political beast.
rjjusu: I Will Fear No Evil
TAWN3: Anyway, that’s my take on it.
KMurphy165: Thanks
TAWN3: Done
AGplusone: Oscar makes a few soldier jokes in Glory Road, doesn’t he? Tell us whether you think them funny?
KMurphy165: I think you have something, there Tawn.
KMurphy165: The court scenes are about the fate of some character that hinges the plot, and yet
KMurphy165: the humor makes it more palatable to read.
rjjusu: I think so, and very true to form. Solders have to have a sense of humor, or they will break
AGplusone: [‘fer example: the Ian Hayes joke about the departments]
DavidWrightSr: Even the court in HSSWT. remember the monkey that did a flip?
AGplusone: The ‘joke’ about the Lieutenant being passed over, and going out and getting killed … right next to
AGplusone: Oscar who takes the bolo on his face.
TAWN3: Yes, the judges (Supreme Court?) in IWFNE. Eunice goes to visit them. Remember?
rjjusu: Combat has always been theater of the absurd
TAWN3: Yes, the leagl scenes are almost always the best, and often funny.
AGplusone: Oscar coming down the cliff while the beasts await dinner from above …
AGplusone: manna from Heaven?
TAWN3: Although I think of HSSWT final trial as moving, not funny. “Go ahead,
OakMan 7111: I need to go take care all
rjjusu: See you!
TAWN3: deatroy our sun, we’ll build another!”
OakMan 7111 has left the room.
TAWN3: Defiant and inspirational at the same time.
DenvToday: I’ve been thinking. “An He Built a Crooked House” is hilarious.
DenvToday: And
TAWN3: RAH understood reality, that’s all.
AGplusone: But the way Iunio treats Kip is funny … stereotypical …
AGplusone: and serious …
AGplusone: What does he say, get the ones who I only wound?
AGplusone: [that might be your speed]
AGplusone: Kultsi … out there?
TAWN3: Crooked House is the magic one?
TAWN3: Good humor in there also.
rjjusu: yes
DenvToday: Yes, the tesseract.
KMurphy165: To mix in all of these elements that define being alive and human…
AGplusone: Okay, you’re up next KM … 🙂
KMurphy165: Then the amazing insight to cleverly put that into plot and dialog.
AGplusone: what do you find sticks out?
KultsiKN: I find many places that are humorous, but…
rjjusu: military volunteer
AGplusone: Kultsi first … then KM, ga Kultsi
DenvToday: I particularly like the matronly woman in it. You just want to smack her with a dead fish.
KultsiKN: apparently, because of cultural differences I can’t get them all…
fgherman: Gotta go.
fgherman: Good night all
DenvToday: Bye fg !
fgherman has left the room.
SAcademy: Nite, Felicia
TAWN3: Bye Felicia
AGplusone: Okay, what do you get … of what you get, Kultsi, what translates?
KultsiKN: the most subtle ones do necessitate an understanding of the US society…
KultsiKN: which I haven’t.
DenvToday: wb
KultsiKN: Much of the humor is pretty universal, though.
DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I dropped out. can someone post me what I missed to make the log complete.
AGplusone: I can, David …
DavidWrightSr: Thanks
AGplusone: Okay, KM, you’re up if you wish: what sticks out as most impressive about RAH humor to you?
AGplusone: And you’re up next Dave 🙂
KMurphy165: This is a moment when I wish AIM wasn’t limiting response length…
AGplusone: LOL … go ahead … we’ll wait ’til you finish
KMurphy165: First, the body of work of Mr. Heinlein is of greater significance to me than holy writ…
KMurphy165: Then I think of how he knew enough of what it means to be human…
rjjusu: =-O
AGplusone: 🙂
KMurphy165: you mix in the everyday kind of humor with the other facets of being alife and humor…
KMurphy165: I’m amazed at that talent and ability to distill it down to plot and dialog…
KMurphy165: Consider how humor weaves all through “The Rolling Stone”
KMurphy165: There are little bits and snippets stuck in every where…
KMurphy165: The Cat Who Walks Through Walls – the landing sequence = the same thing
KMurphy165: It all goes to make the characters more alive
KMurphy165: and easy to care about. Building towards the climax.
AGplusone: Does it add an ethos to the message?
KMurphy165: I think that is very true.
KMurphy165: It is all too easy to preach to the choir.
AGplusone: I.e., a heightened authority to the author’s voice?
rjjusu: Almost Godlike?
KMurphy165: But to convey the author’s point in such a way as to make the audience wanting to hear more
AGplusone: Because he doesn’t take out the leven of humor … does it make the preaching easier to take?
KMurphy165: is simple mastery.
AGplusone: Type “/ga” when you’re done, KM … so we know 😉
KMurphy165: The purpose of the humor is just that to make the sermon palatable and juicy.
KMurphy165: Ok on the “/ga”
rjjusu: I don’t think of it as being preaching. Rather, “Here’s a thought, what do YOU think?”
KMurphy165: /ga
AGplusone: Ah, but some do … Randy, and would you agree that they’ve little sense of humor?
AGplusone: 😎
TAWN3: A lot of people have told me they don’t like Heinlein because he is always preaching
rjjusu: About as much sense of humor as a box of rocks….
TAWN3: From my POV, that is exactly what I do like!
TAWN3: I agree with the message though.
rjjusu: I think Heinlein would say, “Don’t agree with me because I’m me, but rather, because you have thought
AGplusone: The preaching? I like it to, but I also like the levening … it makes the medicine go down even if
AGplusone: I’m not in the mood.
rjjusu: about it and you believe it to be right.”
AGplusone: Okay, we’re about 30 minutes past due for a break … why don’t we do that and when we come back
AGplusone: I have some announcments …
rjjusu: I never saw Heinlein as a shepard, leading the sheep.
AGplusone: back at 30 past the hour, please. Dave, got the conn?
DavidWrightSr: Who me?
TAWN3: Because the sheep don’t understand what he is saying, thats why.
AGplusone: Who else?
rjjusu: I have a couple of things to over with you Ag, when we are done this evening.
rjjusu: go over
AGplusone: Okay … I’m going to find my little teapot … burgundy flavored.
AGplusone: afk til 30 past the hour.
rjjusu: Oh, Tawn, that’s Bah-ahh-ahh-d.
TAWN3: 🙂
TAWN3: He makes fun of the sheep all the time, or other times just
TAWN3: points them out.
TAWN3: The Earthside characters in “It’s Great to be Back” come immediately to mind.
rjjusu: Yes, but I think he still likes the sheep….. where else you you get lambchops?
DavidWrightSr: I am mostly lurking because I can’t really treat RAH’s humor as a separate thing. It all …
DavidWrightSr: seems to go together for me
TAWN3: LOLOL
KMurphy165: I’ve tried to squeeze this into AIM space 3 times 🙁
KultsiKN: Dave, you are not the only one in that.
rjjusu: I agree, David, it is a very integrated presentation that we see in Heinlein’s writings.
KMurphy165: I can’t help but to think at times…
TAWN3: Yes, it is horrible how they limit length now.
KMurphy165: RAH was trying to get a point across to us.
AGplusone: I agree, it’s hard, but sometimes looking at a thing hard to separate discovers a few things …
KMurphy165: It seems to me that Mrs. Heinlein would have insight on that
TAWN3: That’s why I had a hard time at first thinking of Heinlein as humor.
TAWN3: Although I immediately can think of others as having a humorous side, such as Van Vogt.
AGplusone: I think of RAH’s writings as essentially ‘good humored’ even when he’s at his most angry … IWFNE for
AGplusone: example.
SAcademic: I am afrtaid that for forty yeaars I misunderstood my husband. He was always saying that I had a sens
SAcademic: e of humor.
TAWN3: rjusu said: where else you you get lambchops
TAWN3: Well In Farnham’s Freehold……..
SAcademic: I’ve learned a lot about his humor to night.
rjjusu: Lambchops, not Long-porkchops…..
KMurphy165: Why would you say that you misunderstood him?
AGplusone: seriously, Ginny, or are we all wet?
SAcademic: He frequently asked me whether he was a “funny man.” I would say, “Yes, dear.” But I missed the poin
SAcademic: No, I think you’re right now. I missed it altogether.
AGplusone: That’s one hell of a compliment, Thank you from all of us.
KultsiKN: Second.
DenvToday: Indeed!
KMurphy165: second
SAcademic: Sorry to be doing a true confession.
TAWN3: Yes!
AGplusone: Well, it being 30 past the hour … let me discuss a couple things.
SAcademic: It’s really out of place in this meeting.
AGplusone: 1. Next meeting topic: Door Into Summer — no, it’s not — and “predictions”
TAWN3: Anything you say is in place here Ginny.
rjjusu: This is YOUR meeting too!
DavidWrightSr: Not at all. It’s wonderful that you share with us.
KMurphy165: Anything Mrs. Heinlein says is most appropriate
AGplusone: 2. I want to discuss this cutting Saturday meetings. I’m willing to host Saturdays indefinitely,
AGplusone: provided, we get a few volunteers at the year goes on to relieve me occasionally …
AGplusone: and maybe grow back into the nominate-theme or story where new hosts try the thing out
DavidWrightSr: I would imagine that we can manage that. Even I could try sometimes.
rjjusu: I can help out some, Dave, after we get our moving and settling in done.
AGplusone: So I’ll do it … ‘hoping’ as I say, and don’t be too surprised if Zim doesn’t ask you to volunteer as
AGplusone: the year goes by. Thank you.
AGplusone: 3. Connie Willis visit … met her, she’s very nice and very bright, but I do want to emphasize one
AGplusone: thing: we need to read a couple of her books. I’d suggest the two we’ve discussed
AGplusone: before she comes: Dooms Day Book and To Say Nothing of the Dog. both won Hugos, so we should read them
AGplusone: anyway … can I get a committment we’ll do that before I start wheels in motion?
rjjusu: When did you want to have her “here”?
AGplusone: I was a little embarassed with the Smith visit because of (a) few turned out and (b) few had read ….
AGplusone: within next two months, maybe soon.
rjjusu: Just asking, because the next two months I’m going to be earlobe deep to a tall giraffe in moving …
AGplusone: And if we ask her to expend six hours, we ought to have at least read her more important works.
DenvToday: I’ll read those, and more.
rjjusu: I agree, and it IS a responsibility of ours.
KultsiKN: Furrin books are a bit hard to come by in my neck of woods.
AGplusone: That’s all we ask … and they’re both excellent books.
AGplusone: Could you check, K … they did both win Hugos, one two years ago
SAcademic: I’d like to, but—
AGplusone: I know, Ginny, impossible for you …
SAcademic: Yes.
KultsiKN: I’ll check, of course.
AGplusone: but helping out on the posts, even if you can make both meetings will make her feel wanted, and if we
AGplusone: want to have ‘guests’ we’d better do better than we did with Smith …
DenvToday: I believe Willis has several books on tape.
SAcademic: Robert and I used to read Three Men in a Boat to each other.
TAWN3: Ah! Great solution Denver!
AGplusone: and note how nicely we picked up the Rosenburgs after their chat …
SAcademic: I willl try to get some of those.
AGplusone: They both visit and I don’t know about you all, but I think that helps our chats a lot.
rjjusu: I have to say that I enjoyed the Smith visit, but you are right, not much discussion about his works
AGplusone: ’nuff said … on point three.
SAcademic: Yes, it does. Felicia is adelightful
AGplusone: Smith was a problem because so much of his work is Out of print
rjjusu: However, I’ve bought 8 of Joel’s books since his visit.
rjjusu: And found a couple of Smith’s this past week.
DavidWrightSr: I keep looking in the used stores.
AGplusone: so have I, nearly … since it was announced he’d visit
AGplusone: and they are decent books
DavidWrightSr: It gave me two additional writers that I can read. So much of what is out there today I can’t stand.
AGplusone: Okay, me: I’ll answer my own question. what sticks out the most to me … the epigramatic way he
AGplusone: presented humor, not only classic epigrams such as the Sayings of Laz but whenever he intrudes a humor
AGplusone: into a story … get in, get it done, get out … now back to the story
AGplusone: You smile, go on, and look forward to the next sally
AGplusone: the next wry smile it’s going to cause you to make
AGplusone: and, generally, the tolerant way he treats his objects of humor … not scathing usually, but resigned
rjjusu: You make it sound like a job, instead of an extension of a person’s personality.
AGplusone: to the weaknesses of humans
AGplusone: It probably was … but I’d bet he got better at telling jokes the older he got
SAcademic: Yes, that’s ttue
rjjusu: I’d like to think that the person we saw expressed on paper is the person we would meet in life.
AGplusone: ‘timing
SAcademic: Oh, yes, he was great at that!
AGplusone: Okay, Dave … want to take a further shot at it?
AGplusone: we got ten minutes, otherwise, free chat … to the end of the hour.
rjjusu: What were you charging before?
DenvToday: You must admit, the way “To Sail Beyond the Sunset” starts is nothing if not funny.
AGplusone: Standard lawyer’s fee, $300 hour
rjjusu: Must be bargin weekend, because of the holiday.
AGplusone: [I told you lawyer’s jokes to other lawyers require a lot of explanation]
rjjusu: One question for Mrs. H – would you say that Robert had a “wry” sense of humor in everyday life, ….
DavidWrightSr: I can’t add anything.
rjjusu: or a playful sense of humor?
SAcademic: Playful, rather than wry.
TAWN3: Interesting.
AGplusone: practical jokes?
DavidWrightSr: ‘loose slips lose ships’
SAcademic: Why, Tawn
rjjusu: That makes sense, given the way he uses the language sometimes.
SAcademic: No, no practical jokes. I never knew him to do that.
TAWN3: Well, because I am thinking about the differences between those two types of humor.
AGplusone: I love Jill Boardman’s decription of Intern humor … just wondered if he was joking at himself
TAWN3: And I would have thought of wry first,
SAcademic: Except once. He put a little figure of an ice skater on top of an ice cube, and waited for me to fi
TAWN3: based on observations in his writings.
SAcademic: nd it.
AGplusone: in the ice tray? Or in a drink?
TAWN3: But, on further thought, there is a large degree in playfulness when he wants to be humorous
SAcademic: In the ice tray in the fridge.
TAWN3: such as in Star beast for example since we discussed it earlier.
markjmills has left the room.
TAWN3: And the things I think of as “wry”
AGplusone: Great! In a drink might have strange effects especially after a long night.
markjmills has entered the room.
TAWN3: come out as humor but are really political commentary
AGplusone: PJ O’Rourke, or Phil Wiley write/wrote very funny political commentary …
rjjusu: Good comments, Tawn. I’ve seen many of the same things, which is why I asked the question
TAWN3: So, I have to agree with what someone pointed out earlier,
TAWN3: that the humor is to make the message more palatable.
AGplusone: so does Dave Barry now that I think on it … and others
TAWN3: But it is not really humor for humor’s sake, because when he does want to be humourous
TAWN3: he is very playful and funny indeed!
TAWN3: So, one is meant to be funny, the other is meant to make the mesage strike home.
AGplusone: I’m all yours by IM Randy …
rjjusu: Yes, not quite Dave Barry, but not unlike PJ O’Rourke
TAWN3: That was my interesting (from my POV) observation.
TAWN3: And you are probably most definitely right Ginny, since you knew him best!
SAcademic: Nite all, time for me to get something to eat.
KMurphy165: Farewell
DenvToday: Good night!
SAcademic has left the room.
AGplusone: Good night, Ginny, thanks
TAWN3: Nite!
KultsiKN: time for by nap. Good night, all!
KultsiKN has left the room.
AGplusone: G’nite Kultsi … official close of log at 5:00:33 PM PDT
KMurphy165: Time to go and take care of family. Hope to see all here Thursday night.
AGplusone: Looking forward to it!
KMurphy165 has left the room.
AGplusone: Have we an e mail addy for KM?
DenvToday: Good night to one and all. Thanks for the terrific discussion.
DavidWrightSr: I think I have it. I’ll check
AGplusone: Dave: sending you full log ….
DenvToday has left the room.
rjjusu: Great discussion this evening. some real insights in tonight’s log into the character of RAH.
TAWN3: Yes, good discussion.
TAWN3: great discussion.
AGplusone: Good! Thanks Dave. sent.
markjmills has left the room.
rjjusu: Great comments, Tawn. I think they really caught the essence of what we
AGplusone: got it?
rjjusu: were talking about here, tonight.
rjjusu: And now, I want to go out an commit mayhem on some AOL dweeb
AGplusone: for limiting the buffer here! I’ll help …
AGplusone: I know where I can find a rock
TAWN3: Observation at the end you mean rj?
rjjusu: This shortening of messages is really cramping my writing.
rjjusu: I wish they would show a little buffer indicator if they are going to limit it like that.
rjjusu: Yes, Tawn.
TAWN3: Not only limiting the buffer, it used to be
AGplusone: It’s annoying … I do get the bell when I hit it …
AGplusone: but I’m surprised you guys don’t.
TAWN3: at least the first part of your message showed up until the limit point,
DavidWrightSr: I don’t get anything and have to retype when I over type.
TAWN3: so you didn’t have to rewrite a whole thought.
rjjusu: I don’t, that is what is frustrating to me. All I get is message too long or complicated
AGplusone: Send them a nasty e mail, from their website
rjjusu: then it dis appears, and I have to start from scratch.
AGplusone: big PITA
TAWN3: Now the whole thing dis apears and you get a “to long” notice instead, causing you
TAWN3: to sometimes lose the train of thought.
AGplusone: Only don’t tell ’em that it doesn’t happy on Macs, otherwise some brain-burned idiot will tell the pro
rjjusu: If this is the way it is going to be, I’m going to make a template in Notepad, and write there first.
TAWN3: Excite is sending out direct competition to AOL customers, got one yesterday
AGplusone: grammers to take out the Macs.
rjjusu: Then cut-and-paste to the AIM window. Just slows me down terribly.
TAWN3: maybe they see AOL as screwing up some stuff and feel they can compete better now.
AGplusone: Excite is a sinking ship …
AGplusone: I’m going to go back and get TypeIt4Me again, new upgrade and see if it works
rjjusu: And my train of thought derails and wrecks itself on the track of my keyboard
AGplusone: Thing I used to use in the AOL chat rooms. Basically a text squirter
AGplusone: I’m sure they have such animals for non-Mac ‘puters
TAWN3: Exactly rj, destorys train of thought sometimes.
DavidWrightSr: Folks, I gotta run. See you all later.
rjjusu: Well, til I find one, I’ll just use Editpad and transfer. I use it to keep track of how much
AGplusone: Me too, folk … see ya, and thanks for coming
rjjusu: I’ve written. See you, David
TAWN3: Night David
rjjusu: And David
DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:03 P.M. EDT.
Final End Of Discussion Log
