Heinlein Readers Discussion Group
Saturday 01/08/2005 5: 00 P.M. EST
Glory Road and the Most Mammoth Hoax in History
Here Begins the Discussion
You are now in chat room ?Heinlein Readers Group chat.¦
NuclearWasteUSN declined your invitation to chat.
Merfilly27 has entered the chat room.
Merfilly27: can’t stay fellas
AGplusone: Hi, Steph. Just opening the room
Merfilly27: Got to take the family to dinner tonight
AGplusone: hope you can come back
Merfilly27: I did enjoy the book
Merfilly27: and I had a question for you, oh wise ones
AGplusone: Yes, grasshopper …
Merfilly27: Was “The Glory Road” a commonly used expression for soldiering/adventuring?
AGplusone: yeah
Merfilly27: I just started Between Planets…first reading…and that is the name of Don’s ship off Earth
AGplusone: 😉 I keep forgetting that.
Merfilly27: ahh…I can’t believe that
Merfilly27: Have a great chat, friends…hope the next one is for me to make
Merfilly27 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: I do. I do. I’ve noticed it incidentally, but never mentioned it in a chat on GL. For sure make it.
Kultsi KN has entered the chat room.
Kultsi KN: Hello!
AGplusone: Hi, K
AGplusone: Just opened early … getting ready
Kultsi KN: this late nothing’s early 😉
JJ Brannon has entered the chat room.
JJ Brannon has left the chat room.
JJ Brannon has entered the chat room.
Kultsi KN: wb, JJ
JJ Brannon: Somehow the invite did not work.
JJ Brannon: I keep the link handy though.
JJ Brannon: I hadn’t known I’d left. : >)
Kultsi KN: this using other program than AOHell’s AIM sometimes makes things interesting, too.
JJ Brannon: Except for the 10 years with the same email address and my discussion groups…
JJ Brannon: …I’d leave AOL.
AGplusone: Me too.
Kultsi KN: I use gaim – does AIM, MSN, ICQ & IRC
Kultsi KN: and _no_ popup ads
AGplusone: Opened the room a little early and thought I’d hit a few buttons.
aggirlj has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Hey Kultsi and JJ!
aggirlj: David Jr and Sr.
Kultsi KN: {{{{Jane}}}}
AGplusone: :: :: : wave : :: ::
aggirlj: {{{{{{K}}}}}}}}}}
aggirlj: :: :: wave back: :: :: ::
JJ Brannon: Big wave, hugs
Kultsi KN: Pls, nothing ’bout BIG waves
Kultsi KN: every effin’ tabloid is full of that Brad Lyau is not online, and therefore cannot chat.
aggirlj: I was thinking of you and where most of the tourists come from K.
JJ Brannon: Well, people frequently don’t like to make waves, but they like to talk about when they’re made.
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
Kultsi KN: we lost about 200, in 5M; Sweden lost 4000 in 10M
aggirlj: JJ I just entered your nome’ in my Buddy list but it doesn’t pop up. What are you using? AIM or AOL. This has happened before. Pam didn’t show on Thursday on my list but should have.
JJ Brannon: I hate to say, “Hi!” and run, but I was just about ready to walk out the door when David hailed me.
AGplusone: Was talking to Joel Rosenberg by IM … evidently the big “firearm” war with MiniCon in Minnepolis is over, so he’s back to going to SF cons
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
AGplusone: Hi, and go eat.
aggirlj: Return if you can.
JJ Brannon: AOL. But I may have to enter you on my white list to be visible
aggirlj: Oh.
JJ Brannon: Hold.
AGplusone: How does Brian keep leaving without showing up? He’s still in England
aggirlj: I’ll try inviting him and see
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
JJ Brannon: Am I visible now?
Kultsi KN: yes, JJ
AGplusone: You are
aggirlj: Yeah, thanks.
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
JJ Brannon: I created the white list because about three, four years ago I was unable to work due to the constant interruptions by IMbots.
aggirlj: Ahhh, I think Pam has something similar.
AGplusone: Brian’s rebooting stuff.
JJ Brannon: I’d be composing a long topic post and the IM would cause my draft box to shrink…
aggirlj: Should I invite him again?
AGplusone: It does that on windows?
Kultsi KN: pls, do
AGplusone: I just did
JJ Brannon: require me to reject the IM, confirm the rejection, and then resize the draft area.
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
AGplusone: Doesn’t do that on Macs
AGplusone: just causes an alert sound in the background
JJ Brannon: This would happen every couple of sentences. Thus the white list.
AGplusone: doesn’t affect the open window
JJ Brannon: I understand.
Kultsi KN: JJ, try gaim
JJ Brannon: But must run. Maybe you’ll still be here when I return. : >)
aggirlj: Great, enjoy!
AGplusone: of course if you’ve got sixty windows open it takes time for find it. We’ll try, JJ
aggirlj: Brian’s not getting the invites.
JJ Brannon has left the chat room.
AGplusone: He’s going to reboot again
BJ Maranta is not online, and therefore cannot chat.
aggirlj: Brian’s going to restart
Kultsi KN: is _everybody_ IMing Brian?
aggirlj: Just about
AGplusone: 🙂
aggirlj: afk
Kultsi KN: IMO — AIM’s starting to vacuum
aggirlj: They’re getting a lot of competition and use of the problems of AIM in the opposing advertisers.
aggirlj: I mean AOL
pixelmeow has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Well Brian’s on again. Let’s see what happens.
pixelmeow: hey!
aggirlj: Hey Pix!
pixelmeow: what’s up folks?
pixelmeow: or, docs?
Kultsi KN: this invite did work
aggirlj: Trying to get BJ Maranta into the chat.
BRSTAHL has entered the chat room.
pixelmeow: hi bryan
AGplusone: Hi, Bryan
Kultsi KN: hi, Bryan!
BRSTAHL: Hello!
aggirlj: Howdy
Kultsi KN: _real_ long time, no see!
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
aggirlj: Heyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!
Kultsi KN: and brian keeps dropping _out_, never _in_
pixelmeow: my daughter is playing aim with me in another window
Kultsi KN: considerable delay between sending a message and its appearance
aggirlj: That’s what I think the problem is.
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
AGplusone: we had some of that Thursday night.
BRSTAHL: And the phone rings with a wrong number as soon as i log on.
Kultsi KN: that’s the spooks, Bryan — checking on ya…
BRSTAHL: Probably. I’ve had to visit McClean too many times lately, so they’re worried about me.
aggirlj: David, you seem to be the only one whose invites are getting through. Brian tried but it didn’t work. Want to send one more?
pixelmeow: I don’t see my text coming across
aggirlj: I see it.
BRSTAHL: Same here.
pixelmeow: okay, that’s a LONG time lag
AGplusone: done
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
AGplusone: Did you see “Meet the Fockers” Bryan?
BRSTAHL: No, missed that one.
pixelmeow: I’ve got over a minute lag.
aggirlj: Supposed to be real funny. Mixed reviews though.
AGplusone: It’s just out. A sequel on something earlier. Robert DeNiro is a retired CIA agent. His daughter … wants to marry some couple from Florida’s son.
pixelmeow: anybody see me???
aggirlj: Yes
AGplusone: Funny scene: the DeNiro’s have a cat, cat flushes dog down a toilet bowl.
BRSTAHL: I see you, Teresa.
AGplusone: Yeas
aggirlj: Really small dog.
pixelmeow: LV needs an invite, also
pixelmeow: if anyone ever sees this
aggirlj: What’s his buddy name?
AGplusone: see if we can join in the other
pixelmeow: my text is taking over two minutes to show up.
AGplusone: I’ll keep this one open and stay in both
AGplusone: Pixel?
pixelmeow: I don’t know what’s going on, but Brian just tried to open a chat room with me and it wouldn’t finish
AGplusone: want me to send you another invite to bjmaranta 355549?
AGplusone: only two 5s
pixelmeow: and I don’t know when you are seeing my text but this is insane
AGplusone: “bjmaranta 355549”
aggirlj: Come into BJ Maranta’s room
AGplusone: I’m seeing it now
pixelmeow: yes?
AGplusone: Nope. You’re hitting the same problem Brian did
pixelmeow: I got another window up and it’s got Error at the top
AGplusone: leaving before you arrive. Speak here, and I’ll relay you.
LV Poker Player has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: Jane’s trying another invite to you
AGplusone: Hi, LV …
LV Poker Player: Hello everyone
aggirlj: Hi LV, we are trying to find the right room
pixelmeow: I’m leaving too?
AGplusone: try accepting the next invite …
Kultsi KN: Hi LV!
pixelmeow: well that worked, at least
Kultsi KN: on Brian’s chat
Kultsi KN: DUH!
pixelmeow: okay…
pixelmeow: joining room…
aggirlj: Kultsi you are not in Bryan’s
AGplusone: if you can run with two windows open ….
pixelmeow: I’ve got another error
Kultsi KN: dropped meself out from Brian’s — somebody pls invite me again…
AGplusone: yes, we saw
aggirlj: Okay, Kultsi I get the not online message.
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
BPRAL22169 has entered the chat room.
NuclearWasteUSN has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Invites shooting your way Pix at BJ’s room
NuclearWasteUSN: doing taxes can’t stay
aggirlj: Hi Bill and Nuke.
NuclearWasteUSN has left the chat room.
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
BPRAL22169 has left the chat room.
aggirlj: LV I’m inviting you to theother room
LV Poker Player: o
LV Poker Player has left the chat room.
Kultsi KN: David Sr; nobody’s active here in a while…
Kim Kinnison999 has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: Hi, Kim
DavidWrightSr: Hey guys. Sorry I’m late
Kim Kinnison999: hi folks
Kultsi KN: Hi, Kim!
AGplusone: we’re in another room because of technical difficulties, let me invite you both
Kultsi KN: ga, Ag
jilyd has entered the chat room.
Kim Kinnison999 has left the chat room.
Kultsi KN: hi, dee; here, too?
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
jilyd: Don’t know how I got here!
aggirlj: Brian can’t get in, thus our change.
Kultsi KN: but you did!
jilyd: I tried to come here and it was empty, AGinvited me over there, suddenly this one popped open again.
Kultsi KN: heh. AOHell vacuums.
Kultsi KN: I came here, now, because Kim popped up on my buddy list
jilyd: Nicely put, Cutie.
aggirlj: Kim’s in the other room.
Dehede011 has entered the chat room.
DavidWrightSr: I just got in from supper and issued a bunch of invitations. I see that some of the worked.
AGplusone: Some still don’t, Dave
DavidWrightSr: I’ve got 5 outstanding invites, but no responses from them.
AGplusone: didn’t work for Maranta
Dehede011: Yes, someone just sent me an invitation and I am in the room
DavidWrightSr: NW declined.
jilyd: Nuke is doing taxes, and hating it!
AGplusone: we’re still going in the “bjmaranta 355649” room that we all can get in
DavidWrightSr: Who all is there?
aggirlj: Most everyone David. I’ll send you an invite, it’s from BJ Maranta chat.
Dehede011 has left the chat room.
jilyd has left the chat room.
DavidWrightSr has left the chat room.
pixelmeow has entered the chat room.
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
aggirlj has left the chat room.
BRSTAHL has left the chat room.
Kultsi KN: ok, lets wrap this one up, too. ‘nite, David!
The problems with the room discussed above made it necessary to continue in the BJMARANTA room
You are now in chat room ?bjmaranta 355649.¦
AGplusone: It does
BJ Maranta: well, one way anyway
Kultsi KN has entered the chat room.
aggirlj has entered the chat room.
BJ Maranta: Hey!
Kultsi KN: works
BJ Maranta: Cool!
aggirlj: Hi there.
BJ Maranta: 🙂
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
BRSTAHL has entered the chat room.
BJ Maranta: Hi, Kultsi; hi “sis!” : -)
Kultsi KN: I have_lots_ of tabs open
BJ Maranta: lol
aggirlj: Hi Bryan, how are you!
Kultsi KN: that’s how gaim works
BRSTAHL: Which group should I be on?
AGplusone: you can stay in both
AGplusone: I am
BJ Maranta: Sorry to be such a pain, folks
aggirlj: This seems to move quicker.
Kultsi KN: ne2!
Kultsi KN: it does
Kultsi KN: *me2
aggirlj: Shall we move here?
BJ Maranta: C’mon in!
BRSTAHL: Did she get the invite/
aggirlj: I just invited Teresa
Kultsi KN: me2!
Kultsi KN: 😀
BRSTAHL: She’s still talking on the other group.
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
aggirlj: Oh God, pix is having the same problem.
Kultsi KN: duh! now she’s the one dropping out!
BJ Maranta: shoot!
Kultsi KN: ok, Jane, you invite her again
aggirlj: I’ll try
BJ Maranta: I’ve given it a whirl also
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
Kultsi KN has left the chat room.
AGplusone: Well, if you can run with two windows open
Kultsi KN has entered the chat room.
BJ Maranta: Shoot
aggirlj: Now you are here.
aggirlj: Kultsi
Kultsi KN: ’tis good to be back!
BJ Maranta: yay! : -)
BJ Maranta: But pixel isn’t here… : -(
aggirlj: No, I think she is in limbo . . . how low can you go.
BRSTAHL: I just tried another invite to her.
pixelmeow has left the chat room.
AGplusone: I’m sitting here trying to decide whether to invite Bill here … or see what
aggirlj: Well pix has left the other room, let’s try another invite.
AGplusone: did
BPRAL22169 has entered the chat room.
BPRAL22169: Hi — what’
aggirlj: Hi Bill, we’re trying to find a good room.
BPRAL22169: ‘s going on in here?
Kultsi KN: Bill’s in… Hi!
BRSTAHL: Hello!
BJ Maranta: We’re getting there! : -)
Kultsi KN: AOHell… that’s what is going on
BJ Maranta: lol
BPRAL22169: Howdy, Bryan. Why is the regular room ng?
BJ Maranta: Somebody fix this here “internet” thingy
aggirlj: We wanted BJ in and we’re trying this one.
BJ Maranta: yep… it’s all my fault… silly Canadians… : -)
pixelmeow has entered the chat room.
BPRAL22169: OK — but someone’s going to have to monitor the regular room, then.
pixelmeow: finally!
BJ Maranta: Yay Pixel! : -)
AGplusone: Hallalulah\
Kultsi KN: pixel is IN!
pixelmeow: whew!
BRSTAHL: Pix, are you really here/
aggirlj: Yehhhhhhhh
pixelmeow: I am, right now
pixelmeow: and my text is coming thru fast!
AGplusone: well, someone send LV another invitation
pixelmeow: 🙂
AGplusone: he’s not taken mine
BJ Maranta: I’ll try
LV Poker Player has entered the chat room.
BJ Maranta: Yay, LV! : -)
AGplusone: Well, we’re all here.
aggirlj: We are complete, what about David Sr
pixelmeow: okay, we all appear to be here
pixelmeow: 😉
AGplusone: Time Enough to discuss Glory Road.
LV Poker Player: ok, but will late arrivals be able to find us?
AGplusone: I’lls tay in the other room
aggirlj: I am monitoring the other room
AGplusone: and herd them over
Kultsi KN: somebody invite David Sr…
BJ Maranta: Everybody have a chair? What about drinks?
AGplusone: He’s monitoring, not active
Kultsi KN: Laphroaigh, 15 yo, pls!
pixelmeow: here you go!
Kultsi KN: but if we are gonna sit here…
aggirlj: A little Medeira m’dear?
AGplusone: probably shopping with his wife …
pixelmeow: and for you…
BJ Maranta: I’ll stick to Timmy’s coffee… with maybe a bit of Bailey’s…
pixelmeow: okay, and here…
AGplusone: Joe Haldeman tells a story: he got his degree from MIT in astronomy, went on a summer break and got his draft notice when he and Gay got back.
AGplusone: Decided to report, rather than head for Canada. This was ’67.
BJ Maranta: lol
AGplusone: So he took two books to basic: Cyrano de Bergerac and Glory Road.
BRSTAHL: He got to take books?
Kultsi KN: ahh
AGplusone: Why?
aggirlj: Wow, very nice combination.
BJ Maranta: I didn’t know “swordfighter” was a valid MOC…
AGplusone: (apparantly so … I suppose I could have too, but it never occurred to me to do so)
Kultsi KN: it was, Brian, it was…
BJ Maranta: lol
AGplusone: He said once he took Glory Road because he just wanted to and hadn’t read the play Cyrano in a while, so he took it too.
BRSTAHL: When I went through, they had the no distractions theory going. No books, magazines, papers, or anything but training or religious material.
AGplusone: I’ve been trying to get my mind around that one for years.
BJ Maranta: I’m pretty sure I had my copy of ‘Troopers with me on Basic Officer Training
AGplusone: Well, draftees with degrees in astronomy have ways of getting around basic training sergeants, I suppose
AGplusone: I don’t remember having anything to read in OCS, except the training manuals and handouts they issued
Kultsi KN has left the chat room.
AGplusone: But NW tells me he took a trip just a few weeks ago over to a Natl Guard OCS in Minnesota to bring them all copies of Starship Troopers, so evidently it’s allowed.
Kultsi KN has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Wb
Kultsi KN: this is getting tedious.
BRSTAHL: They continually change theories on the best way to keep recruits focused.
Kultsi KN: another time I clicked the ‘X’
AGplusone: Esc will blow you out of these rooms just as easily.
Kultsi KN: I ain’t gonna try
Kultsi KN: 😉
AGplusone: I still suppose Glory Road would be an interesting choice for basic, tho …
AGplusone: why would you want to take it?
BJ Maranta: So you can ask the nice Drill Sergeant about the “fairy god mother” department…
Dehede011 has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Right, lol
Kultsi KN: at your — or my — time, it was sorta … current
AGplusone: Or understand the Suprise Party department
Dehede011: Howdy folks, my team is winning in the playoffs at this moment
BJ Maranta: Huzzah!
pixelmeow: YAY!
Dehede011: I will make a prediction on the game as sooon as it is over.
AGplusone: The nice Drill Sergeant would probably tell you to hold out your card for the Chaplain’s punch …
Kultsi KN: sensible
BJ Maranta: lol, David
AGplusone: which he’d borrow to save you the trip to the Post Chapel.
Dehede011: I’m glad I was in the Navy, the Chief would have handed out a crying towel.
AGplusone: There is, seriously, or half so, a lesson about basic training in Glory Road, however, and one in Cyrano, too.
Kultsi KN: crying? spray!
Dehede011: ga
AGplusone: There is the disorientation phase, and the building up phase in Glory Road
Dehede011: Yes,
BJ Maranta: True… never thought of it that way
AGplusone: what we’ve called the manipulation in the posts, but it’s more than that
Dehede011: That was in Petty Officer 101,
aggirlj: Ah, you needed to be there to understand that part of it.
AGplusone: And in Cyrano, been years since I’ve read it, the mentoring of the young man by Cyrano himself — whatzisname
Dehede011: Christian??
AGplusone: the one who Cyrano teaches to make love
aggirlj: Whatisname.
Dehede011: Mala Powers played the love
AGplusone: the cadet, if Christian is his name
aggirlj: Roxanne was the woman.
Dehede011: But I knew she was really Mala Powers and that is who I had my eye on
AGplusone: And I suppose in ’67, there was the exodus of the WW II and Korean vets already beginning, so you did have a few passed over twice Lieutenants and vile First Sergeants who stayed in the rear to hand out courts martial — although
Kultsi KN: I’ve never read the book — seen a play, though, with our prez.
AGplusone: I’m not quite sure Joe had that one figured out … Oklahoma boys are pretty smart about stuff like that, I suspect.
Dehede011: Is Cyrano done as a play these days??
AGplusone: I’ve just been wondering why he’d pick those two
aggirlj: Jose Ferrer did a pretty nice job in the movie.
jilyd has entered the chat room.
Kultsi KN: oh yes
aggirlj: Hi Dee.
jilyd: Good evening, all.
BRSTAHL: hello
BJ Maranta: Hi, Dee!
Kultsi KN: Hi, Dee!
AGplusone: different room Dee because we could not all get in the other one
Reilloc has entered the chat room.
jilyd: Wha’ hoppen’?
aggirlj: Hi LN
Reilloc: Hi, Jane
Kultsi KN: Hello, LN
BPRAL22169: Just explaining — not everyone could get into the usual room, so we setup one everyone can get to.
Reilloc: Hi, Kult
AGplusone: Hi, LN … figured it out yourself?
Reilloc: Brian invited me, Dave.
jilyd: I will be introducing someone new in a few, when she sign on AIM.
AGplusone: We were talking about why Haldeman took Cyrano and Glory Road to basic in 1967 or ’68 when he got drafted.
AGplusone: Trying to figure out why that particular choice.
Reilloc: H.R. Haldeman did what to whom before he hooked up with Nixon?
jilyd: My mother will probably listen more than chat, but she wanted to visit a chat room in action, and meet some more of my Heinlein friend, too.
aggirlj: And you asked why the two. Surrendipity on some level and then I feel they relate to some degree.
AGplusone: No, Joe Haldeman, who later wrote The Forever War
Reilloc: I’m in the wrong room.
Reilloc: What happened to the Heinlein chat?
BPRAL22169: Well, also, Cyrano appears as a character in Glory Road — or possibly a demonic double of Cyrano.
aggirlj: This is it with a little twist.
AGplusone: Did a year as a draftee after he got his degree from MIT in astronomy
aggirlj: Yes, guarding the egg.
AGplusone: and when he got the notice, decided no Canada for this boy from Oklahoma
BJ Maranta: What was his MOC? Or MOS, or whatever?
Dehede011: Possibly the scenes in Glory Road turned him on to Cyranno
Reilloc: Well, since I don’t know Haldeman and only knew Erlichman slightly, I’ll just listen.
AGplusone: combat engineer
AGplusone: Got badly wounded
aggirlj: :-PLN
Kultsi KN: shot or a mine?
BRSTAHL: EOD that went wrong.
Dehede011: I read Glory Road and Gulf in an interrupted mode. For me and possibly for Haldeman the hook was set deep.
AGplusone: They captured a VC ammo dump after driving out the VC. Wanted to blow it right away. Officer refused to let them. VC often bobby trap the things. Officer didn’t let them. Said I have food for the troops coming in
AGplusone: so they waited on guard around it while the food came in. The dump blew.
Kultsi KN: shit
AGplusone: Well, anyway …
Kultsi KN: Joe did get OUT
jilyd: I guess he woud not have known his assignement before basic, but I can see how Cyrano and GR might appeal to a combat engineer–a dangerous job, but not always given teh “glory.”
AGplusone: yeah took a .51 cal sideways through his hip
AGplusone: and a bunch of little shit here and there
jilyd: Man!
BJ Maranta: gotta hate it when that happens
BRSTAHL: He says he still has pieced in him.
Reilloc: So, how’s this relate to this hoax business?
AGplusone: And drinks a lot of wine
AGplusone: Well, wonder about the role of Cyrano-construct in Hokesh, for one thing
Reilloc: Uhhh…no.
AGplusone: Cyrano = the coach = the first sergeant
Reilloc: What is it?
Reilloc: I’m missing it.
AGplusone: but in Cyrano’s case Oscar takes the lesson to heart
Reilloc: So he’s the first sergeant, where’s the hoax fit in?
AGplusone: The coach was too easy for Easy, the first sergeant too hard ….
Reilloc: I think you’re reading shit into this that isn’t there.
AGplusone: I’m trying to work my way through it. the major question I’ve always had is why pick on Cyrano ??
Reilloc: Pick on?
BRSTAHL: Influences that got Oscar into that mess?
AGplusone: a noble type … who is the guard on Glory Road … is the ubervillain to prevent Oscar from succeeding in the Quest for the Egg
Reilloc: I think Heinlein picked somebody and attribution of significance is revisionist johnny-come-latelyism
Dehede011: Cyrano, Heinlein and Oscar were all swordsman. It doesn’t seem surprising that a phantom Cyrano would show up.
AGplusone: That could be, Bryan … Glory Road, in a way, is an ignoble profession
Kultsi KN: a hero of equal standing to Oscar
jilyd: The Alexandrian solution, LN.
AGplusone: go out and kill people
Reilloc: What’s the Alexandrian solution, Dee?
jilyd: To the Gordian knot. You just cut right through all the verbosity.
Reilloc: One part Greek fire, one part Greek tragedy?
BPRAL22169: Well, there is also that Rostand’s Cyrano is the paradigmatic romance hero.
AGplusone: Maybe all heroes are destined to have a House fall on their head in the end?
BJ Maranta: lol
Kultsi KN: do you think a hero would die in BED?
Kultsi KN: (at least not his own..)
BJ Maranta: not and still be a hero
AGplusone: Yeah, but die because someone blows up a house on you? Because they cannot face you with a sword?
BRSTAHL: So, no “Straw Death”?
AGplusone: Any significance to Oscar’s broken nose, and Cyrano’s long one? I’m just trying to pick off tangents in the story …
Reilloc: Just a random olifact.
AGplusone: And what significance to the role of Cyrano of teaching Christian to be a lover and the love theme in Glory Road?
Kultsi KN: ah, but in GR Cyrano did _not_ get a house on his precious head, he got noble steel through his thorax
BRSTAHL: Ways to make the face notable, but not classically handsome.
BJ Maranta: Or perhaps all the similarities between this character and Cyrano are a result of Oscar’s own imagination, influenced by the building the egg is in
aggirlj: Well, difference being Cyrano made fun of his nose whereas Oscar used his broken nose and scar as a romantic notion.
AGplusone: Make Love not War, getting back to Joe Haldeman’s pick for reading material.
AGplusone: True … he survives the house, but weakened
Kultsi KN: mebbe he wanted to compare?
Kultsi KN: Joe, that is
AGplusone: at least that’s how I read the play
AGplusone: There’s an aspect of an internal mental struggle in the crawling though the tunnels scenes, isn’t there, Brian?
BJ Maranta: Yah; he sees the tunnel shrink, but Rufo and Star do not
BRSTAHL: He said the Sould Eater knew the shape of his soul. kd4lfl has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: Mentions of all of Oscar’s failures, from the Rats when he and his mother were widowed and orphaned, through the failure of the scholarship, the relationships with the First Sergeant, etc.
AGplusone: His entire history of woe
AGplusone: Hi, KD
BJ Maranta: so maybe Oscar saw this character as he “expected” him to be… and he pulled Cyrano out of his memory
BRSTAHL: That’s it. Pick up every sore spot in history, and see if he breaks.
jilyd: David, and all, the nice lady with teh Hamm callsign for a screen name is my mother, Carrie.
Reilloc: So, he’s fighting with himself and he kills himself but doesn’t die because he can’t and he’s reborn, but he’s not and, in the end, what’s he learned?
aggirlj: Hi Carrie, I’m Jane.
AGplusone: Hello, Carrie and welcome!
BJ Maranta: Most gracious Welcome to you Carrie! I’m Brian
BJ Maranta: 🙂
Reilloc: Hi, Dee’s mom.
BPRAL22169: Yeah, I figured the unnamed Swordsman was Oscar himself in some important way.
BRSTAHL: Hello
jilyd: Got a Brian and A Bryan tonite.
Kultsi KN: Hi, Carrie!
BJ Maranta: hee hee
Reilloc: Who else could know so much about him than him, Bill?
BPRAL22169: Which makes his victory a kind of nietzschean “self-overcoming”
AGplusone: In the end … LN, that the road goes ever on and on … but then, he’s still got that lesson to go
Dehede011: Hi Carrie, I’m glad to finally meet you.
BPRAL22169: Just so, LNC
BJ Maranta: The soul eater is a mirror for Oscar
BPRAL22169: It’s also a classic “dark night of the soul” kind of thing
AGplusone: And for any professional soldier, or “hero” isn’t it?
Dehede011: And who would be the most feared opponent for a swordsman but Cyranno
BPRAL22169: If you want to look at the monomyth.
Reilloc: Aorro
aggirlj: Interesting take Brian and one that I will think on and not so far out there.
Reilloc: Zorro
AGplusone: Or the Scarlet Pimpernel?
BPRAL22169: I think Zorro might not have been on Oscar’s horizon — it was years before the TV show revived it.
AGplusone: But Cyrano wrote SF
Dehede011: brb kd4lfl: Helllo. You probably alreeady know I am Dee’s mother. Good to b e here with all of yhou
AGplusone: Zorro was a novel long before the TV series
BJ Maranta: Or perhaps a bit of a Sci-Fi Schtick; the powerful alien/force who appears in a form the hero can understand, as his “real” form would be incomprehensible.
BPRAL22169: Yes — but it wasn’t especially prominent the way it is now — there was a lot of romance novels about the Californios.
aggirlj: Q
AGplusone: /ga, Jane
jilyd: Now that one might be suitable to the “dark mirror of the soul” theme, David–“Is he in heaven, is he in hell?”
aggirlj: No, just comment on Brian’s thought.
aggirlj: Q is a character
BJ Maranta: Q from Star Trek: Next Generation
AGplusone: Ah … worthy opponent for JT Kirk
BRSTAHL: It depends on who Oscar would see as a dangerous adversary. Also, Oscar didn’t remember his name.
AGplusone: yeah, amazing, wasn’t that?
BPRAL22169: Or Oscar couldn’t allow himself to know the name.
BPRAL22169: This is Oscar as he sees himself, remember.
pixelmeow: Q was Picard’s opponent.
AGplusone: I can’t be the anti-hero if Cyrano is the enemy, that’s what I’d be.
AGplusone: Okay, Teresa
BRSTAHL: Well, Oscar did say that he seemed to expect him to know it.
BPRAL22169: Well part of it is that Heinleni didn’t believe in the hero-and-villain formula, so he has to do some fancy tapdancing to work in a romance formula.
Reilloc: Didn’t believe in or didn’t know how to write?
BPRAL22169: Didn’t believe in — didn’t want to write; was bored with.
AGplusone: That’s a big point, Bill … never a villain, although we have a couple mini-villains about then … Mrs. Grew for one.
BRSTAHL: He did have the theory that a villian is not a villian in his own eyes.
AGplusone: Berquist in Stranger for another
BJ Maranta: Did RAH ever use that “alien in a form you would understand” thing in any other stories?
BPRAL22169: Well — in the juveniles.
BPRAL22169: That’s to the villain thing above — the Wormfaces, for instance.
Reilloc: He was so postmodern.
jilyd: MotherThing as alien in a form you could understand?
AGplusone: Even Iunio is quite a villain if you look at him, until it’s time to be a hero, polish up the armor and die in a pile and all that
AGplusone: [how dare he want to buy PeeWee!]
BJ Maranta: Was Scudder a villain?
BRSTAHL: The Wormfaces didn’t see themselves as villians. They were simply clearing animals off a needed world.
jilyd: I have not given it much thougth before, but he rarely seems to spend a lot of time or detail on villains.
BPRAL22169: I think RAH did some interesting stuff without invoking that trope of 50’s sci-fi. He just had us assuming that the aliens were just like us — until things went disastrously wrong. Cf. Methuselah’s Children.
BRSTAHL: Scudder believed he was saving souls; the follow-on Prophets may be another story.
AGplusone: And the Victrix didn’t see itself as villains, just occupying a country of barbarians where it was necessary to do unpleasnat things occasionally
BJ Maranta: The Jockaira and the “Little People”, right Bill?
BPRAL22169: Yes, that’s what I had in mind, Brian
BPRAL22169: A little Wellsian, that — everydayness covering something extraordinary.
AGplusone: Both the Jockaira and the Little People had the best intentions
jilyd: Maybe he just found evil not nearly as interesting as many writers seem to.
BJ Maranta: I still think the School Master in Red Planet was evil… : -)
BRSTAHL: The greastest villians seem to be those who do things to others “for their own good.”
LV Poker Player: Now that we are getting the Star Wars back story, we find out that Darth Vader did not have evil or villainous intentions to begin with.
Reilloc: Maybe he didn’t want to take the risk of identifying specific evils for fear of alienating a readership.
BPRAL22169: I don’t know about that so much, D — but I do know he didn’t like formula.
BJ Maranta: I think Bryan has something there…
AGplusone: And Cyrano, the Eater of Souls, has the best intentions: “let the rhymn flow trippingly off your lips boy, and I’ll listen for a while before I kill you”
BPRAL22169: Ah, he was just “black ice.”
aggirlj: I am at the middle point in TCWWTW and there is a hair raising evilness in the Luna beuracracy.
jilyd: But we didn;t see pages and pages and pages devoted to loving detail about the schoolmaster–we saw enough of his evil behavior, and heard just enough of his remarks to know he knew what he was doing.
jilyd: Established he was a villain, but the story was not ABOUT him.
jilyd: He created the conflict for the story of teh good guys.
BJ Maranta: sure; and as Bryan pointed out, he, like others, was convinced of the “rightness” of what he was doing, not evil in his own eyes
AGplusone: Howell in Red Planet is just your standard “me first” bureaucrat placed in his job by nepotism
BPRAL22169: Yeah. I thought of Red Planet, too.
BJ Maranta: Who neither understands nor cares about the locals and their issues
aggirlj: (thanks for the spelling lesson D)
LV Poker Player: VERY few people see themselves as being evil. For example, the headmaster probably thought that his policies were the best way to turn his young charges into disciplined, productive young men.
AGplusone: So what if Jim’s buddy’s mother will die if she cannot migrate … it’s cost-effective to leave them be. Twice the room.
BJ Maranta: Yeah; migrations cost money, doncha know?
AGplusone: Eggs have to be broken, says all Eaters of Souls.
BRSTAHL: What he needed was a visit from Scrooge’s ghosts.
jilyd: Jane–Huh?
AGplusone: otherwise you cannot have egg nog on Christmas
AGplusone: Evee
aggirlj: David, not D
jilyd: Oh. My typing is so constantly irregular, it is not even worth comment. : -)
AGplusone: and mine
Reilloc: oot, em
AGplusone: When you have a story by Heinlein, there’s always the “think” about what I’ve tossed in aspect … why the tosses?
aggirlj: Whoa, what you mean.
BJ Maranta: Perhaps exactly that, David; to make you think
AGplusone: No choice is arbitrary.
Reilloc: cough
AGplusone: Little is mere ornament.
AGplusone: Defend your cough, please, LN.
Reilloc: dextromethorphan
BJ Maranta: Especially with his earlier works, where he was restricted on his word count; he wouldn’t leave stuff in for no reason
aggirlj: I don’t think a great writer, and this is the correct category, EVER tosses ANYTHING in.
Reilloc: There’s more read into than written into.
BJ Maranta: That may be what David is getting at; if something appears to be “tossed in” for no reason, perhaps you need to look again.
Reilloc: It’s not my job to prove your thesis.
AGplusone: But it is readible, is the point, and consistent often with other points.
aggirlj: Not always. If you are going to take this road and examine all the variables then you will find something to support what is there.
Dehede011: I get the picture of a writer that worked long continuous hours and did a lot of things to amuse himself.
Reilloc: If you look hard enough, you’ll find what you’re looking to find.
AGplusone: That’s always true. We have very facile and flexible minds, don’t we?
AGplusone: And we are his audience.
BJ Maranta: But what you find and what I find may be different, Reilloc. The ultimate YMMV
Reilloc: You find what you’re looking to find and I find a work of fiction.
AGplusone: The more mature he got, the more we did. He was just older than I am now when he wrote Glory Road. A man of retirement age.
Kultsi KN: and I, personally, like the multi-level writing that is so Heinleinesque
aggirlj: Example, a reference to a gem owned by a character in a play. Do you research that gem. Does that help you to define the character. You bet it does.
BRSTAHL: Well it’s a judgement call. When is a cigar significant, and when “is a cigar just a cigar”?
Reilloc: Good point, Jane.
Reilloc: You find the hope in the Hope Diamond.
Kultsi KN: Even if, as some say, it’s just my imagination
AGplusone: Sophist!
Reilloc: revisionist
BJ Maranta: lol, David
AGplusone: lol, LN … : -)
AGplusone: The ‘story teller’ used to be on a soap box, as Spider reminded us in his forward … something to always keep in mind. Bad habits learned young.
LV Poker Player: Sometimes one character will lead you to an insight into another character. For example, Blind Tom is mentioned in Starman Jones. I am 99% + certain that Betsey in Searchlight was modeled after Blind Tom.
AGplusone: Easier to make money while slipping in insidious little bits.
DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.
DavidWrightSr has left the chat room.
BPRAL22169: (I just got a message that David Wright was no longer idle; does he need an invite in here?)
BPRAL22169: Answered that question . . . rustle of his wings.
AGplusone: He just was in and out
DavidWrightSr declined your invitation to chat.
Reilloc: Would it have been worth while, To have bitten off the matter with a smile, To have squeezed the universe into a ball, To roll it toward some overwhelming question, To say: ?I am Lazarus..
aggirlj: Just sent an invite that as you see was declined, if you get that message.
LV Poker Player: http: //www.twainquotes.com/archangels.html
Kim Kinnison999 has entered the chat room.
aggirlj: Hi Kim.
AGplusone: welcome Kim
Kim Kinnison999: hi, good evening.
LV Poker Player: Read about that guy, and then tell me that he was not the inspiration for Betsey Barnes? Krin135 has entered the chat room.
BPRAL22169: He was widely known in his day — I t hink there’s even an oblique reference to him in Lost Legacy.
BRSTAHL: Hello Krin135: chuckle…might hae known when I saw the ‘Steel’ name
LV Poker Player: It’s been a few years since I read the Lensman books, but I remember Kim Kinnison.
aggirlj: Oh, love that blue, hard on these old eyes though. Krin135: lol…wait one, over Krin135: better?
aggirlj: Thanks. Krin135: wish I could stay, but I have to head to work in a few
Kultsi KN: Hi, Chuck!
Dehede011 has left the chat room. Krin135: btw, not seeing John Atkinson in here
BRSTAHL: Just thought you might like to say hello. Krin135: hi Kultsi and the rest of you
AGplusone: Well, befor eyou go, Chuck. Got question?
aggirlj: Splat! Krin135: I did chat with him, and he was more in a black humor mood than anything else… Krin135: go ahead, AG
AGplusone: ‘kay …
aggirlj: No one danced on his head. I think he needs to cool down.
AGplusone: tell him pumprat is a fire captain about sixty if it matters. Krin135: at least partially because he had just found out that he’s back in the bag for Iraq next fall Krin135: I will pass that on…
BJ Maranta: that sucks Krin135: in any case, he and Jen will have a total of maybe 4 weeks together in the next two years or so…
Kultsi KN: oh fuck!
BRSTAHL: That really sucks! Krin135: I’ll keep an ear out for him…MAJ Bohn, if you would put WolverineCDR on your buddy list kd4lfl: Friends I am leaving you now kd4lfl: . Enjoyed the visit
Reilloc: Bye, Carrie. Krin135: there are things that you two can discuss that he won’t ness. open up with me about
aggirlj: Bye, nice to meet you.
BRSTAHL: Bye
BJ Maranta: Bye Carrie! Krin135: bye KD
Kultsi KN: bye, carrie!
Kim Kinnison999: :waves:
AGplusone: nice of you to come Carrie Krin135: or should I say Hi Hi, KD4LFL de KC5EVN
AGplusone: LOL
jilyd: Chuck, that’s my mom. Krin135: k…
BJ Maranta: Didn’t think Maj Bohn was here tonight
AGplusone: only de I have ever had were things like LJ4A and such
jilyd: We confuse people a lot–our voices are very much alike, and our calls sound a lot alike if they go by quickly. Krin135: argh..you are right BJ
AGplusone: which obviously isn’t a ham station kd4lfl: Good n ight all!!! Krin135: night all
Reilloc: Later… Krin135 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: nite Chuck
BRSTAHL: good Night kd4lfl has left the chat room.
jilyd: Over my head, David–LJ4A?
AGplusone: military call signal I remembered
Reilloc: Jag Corps medical deferrment.
AGplusone: just popped into my head
AGplusone: was a very busy net
BPRAL22169: If we’ve run this one into the ground, how about this: I think we might be able to read something from “Stranger” as a gloss on the Hoax — the “garden of gethsemene” speech near the end.
AGplusone: Try us, Bill
jilyd: Oh, I am not familiar witht he military forms.
Dehede011 has entered the chat room.
jilyd: Never even worked in MARS.
DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.
AGplusone: Hi, Dave
aggirlj: Hi David.
BJ Maranta: Yay, David! : -)
BRSTAHL: Hello
Dehede011: Hi y’all
BJ Maranta: How do you mean “Gloss on the Hoax,” Bill?
AGplusone: On the Stranger Glory Road connection, Bill?
Kultsi KN: Hiya, DWS!
Reilloc: David, you need a supplemental log since you left?
AGplusone: Send him the whole thing, please, LN
DavidWrightSr: I am assuming that nothing more is to be discussed in the regular room? If so, I’ll save the log I’ve got there and will have to rely on someone here sending me the log.
BPRAL22169: Well — he talks about the horrible things that have been done to sex
Reilloc: I’ll go back as far as I can. Send me your email address, David.
Reilloc: Thanks.
BRSTAHL: This is brought up again in the later books from the seventies on.
AGplusone: And I’ll go back before LN came in and send you what I’ve got before that
aggirlj: I’ve been thinking about the ruination of the sex thing and the question about sex=love.
DavidWrightSr: Ok. BRB
aggirlj: When most of us were young didn’t we all feel that sex at least equaled like.
BRSTAHL: This could get into the Eros-Agape discussion in TEFL.
Kim Kinnison999: well aggirlj..let’s say for me it was..optimum but not required : D
aggirlj: I know, delicate area.
aggirlj: But romance at least came into play.
aggirlj: A little?
jilyd: Well, I am far from young and I still think sex is better if there is love connected. Though not restricted only to “happily ever after, death do us part” love. Friendship type love is good, too.
BPRAL22169: I think we’re (most of us) from a generation that sought family in sex — that’s not necessary true of people before us or people after us. There are lots of thing people can cram into sex
jilyd: Bill, can you ealborate a little on what you mean by seeking family in sex?
BRSTAHL: But how much romance is simply tactical for young men to get sex?
Reilloc: If you can’t fuck your friends, who can you fuck, Dee?
BJ Maranta: lol, Bryan
jilyd: Well, yeah, LN.
Kim Kinnison999: yeah. usually agg
aggirlj: Well, but you see, I never felt it was just fucking. I hate that word.
Reilloc: It’s a great word.
AGplusone: [sounds like a meeting of a local bar association, doesn’t it, Dee?]
BJ Maranta: Or, perhaps, LN, if you can’t be friends with the person you want to fuck, where are your standards and/or priorities?
BPRAL22169: Well, we stopped having families in the U.S. in the older sense after WWII, and so the postwar generation had this psychological gap and you always try to fill a psychological gap with sex as a kid, anyway. That was our generation
Reilloc: You’re already friends, BJ. That’s what I said.
Kultsi KN: well, I did love everyone I boinked, at least for a while
BJ Maranta: Well, Kultsi, there is always Time Enough for Love, right? 😉
AGplusone: Keep going, Bill … it’s getting interesting
BPRAL22169: To a certain extent, you love because you boink — that’s just as true of women as of men, though the war of the sexes thing want to make it a male characteristic.
Reilloc: You always fill a psychological gap with sex?
BJ Maranta: But you can love someone without wanting to boink them, no?
Reilloc: That’s a new one on me.
Kultsi KN: right, Brian — and for guys there’s this lil’ evidence thingy showing
BJ Maranta: LOL!
BPRAL22169: There’s a theory that we basically have only one way of experiencing ecstasy, and everything gets funnelled through that endorphin-rush — sex, religion, esthetic experience. it’s just the way we’re built.
AGplusone: “sharing water” depends on what kind of water you want to share … : -)
AGplusone: as a girl once told me in the 60s
aggirlj: Ahhh, the 60’s.
Reilloc: When the swallows came back to Capistrano?
BJ Maranta: lol… the 60’s… hee hee
aggirlj: And I believe the phrase was ‘let’s make love.’
Kultsi KN: well, the 60’s were a bit delayed on the way — but JIT for me
AGplusone: … and, Bill … ?
Kim Kinnison999: ‘wanna go back to my place and drink some wine and smoke a joint’ was the polite form heh
BPRAL22169: I didn’t have anything more to say — perhaps a question would direct thinking?
aggirlj: 🙂
BRSTAHL: But making love has been an euphemism for sex since at least Anglo-Saxon.
Reilloc: Okay, Bill…
aggirlj: Let’s pretend as they say.
AGplusone: How does that tie into the “garden of gethsemene” speech
Reilloc: So, there’s a school of sexual determinists out there like Marx was an economic determinist, you’re saying?
BPRAL22169: Not really, LNC — it’s jsut a way of explaining why we get these thigns all mixed up and get so confused about them — sex and religion and the experience of the divine and the esthetic experience. They are all essentially the
BPRAL22169: same thing (in much the same way that we can only taste four flavors but manage to get a lot of unique tastes).
Reilloc: We can taste only four flavors?
BPRAL22169: Yes — though some systems say five. Sweet, salt, sour, bitter — and gluramic for the fifth.
BJ Maranta: Salt Sweet Sour Bitter
BJ Maranta: lol
AGplusone: four basic receptors
Reilloc: And, you’re saying absolutely, that all those things ARE the same thing?
AGplusone: in combination give us all flavors
BPRAL22169: No, just that we have only one way to experience ecstasy, and anything that involves ecstasy for us gets done by a rush of endorphins.
Kultsi KN: B/W — with endless variation
AGplusone: Like CMYwhatever the fourth one is for color
BJ Maranta: K
Kultsi KN: K
BJ Maranta: lol
Reilloc: RGB
Kultsi KN: B
AGplusone: yeah, or the other
Kultsi KN: +Black
aggirlj: Gotta be a man thing.
BJ Maranta: Lol, Jane
AGplusone: color wheels, Jane
BPRAL22169: Red-yellow-blue in pigments, LNC
BPRAL22169: The cyan-magenta-yellow thing is for light-mixing.
BJ Maranta: But RGB and CMYK are technological means of displaying colour. “Real” colours are variations of wavelengths of light
BPRAL22169: Actdually, no, color is the way we interpret combinations. Color doesn’t actually exist in the real world — it’s a construct of the human mind.
Reilloc: This is not going to turn into one of those, “how do you know red to me and red to you look the same” deals, is it?
BPRAL22169: It’s something we “do” with the outside world.
AGplusone: but how does that tie into the “garden of gethsemene” speech? And, to clarify, what part of SiaSL is the garden analogy
BJ Maranta: Hrm. I did not know that, Bill. Cool
BRSTAHL: But it again gets into the receptors the enable us to experience them. Certain wavelengths affect certain receptors, and the brain translates it into color.
Kim Kinnison999: /me catches a faint odor of quantum theory ahead and shudders
aggirlj: Way out of the park.
BPRAL22169: Oh, yeah — it’s based on input — Aristotle said everhthingultimately comes down to touch.
BRSTAHL: The garden is the final Jubal-mike talk before the shooting.
AGplusone: Right
Kim Kinnison999: and .. speaking of the 60’s. Isn’t it ironic..is IS all vibrations..
BPRAL22169: Let’s see – the part I was talking about was when Jubal visits the Nest and Mike finally takes a break. He’s hoping that he can derail the martyrdom he sees cvoming. Yes, Brian (I can’t remember whether Stahl is with the Y or the
BPRAL22169: I) “Let this cup pass from me.”
BRSTAHL: Y
BJ Maranta: BJ = I : -)
BPRAL22169: He says “I discovered this wonderful thing, man-woman sex, and it’s the thing that’s missing entirely from the Martian view of things, and you peopl ehave turned it into a way of giving pain —
AGplusone: me, not I …. let’s remember our grammar : -)
BJ Maranta: lol
BPRAL22169: — but it’s also a way of giving — sharing — the divine in us.
BPRAL22169: Does that place the incident sufficiently?
AGplusone: yes
Reilloc: So, who’s who?
Reilloc: Is that the question?
Reilloc: Not Brian and Byran.
AGplusone: for those who havne’t passed this way before
Reilloc: Who’s Christ and who’s not in the scene?
BPRAL22169: OK — the relevance to the Hoax in Glory Road is that Mike’s observations are part of the stuff Oscar is referring to by the Greatest Hoax.
BPRAL22169: Mike is Christ, “praying” to Jubal for guidance.
BJ Maranta: There is an overlap in the concepts, yes
Reilloc: Mike asks him to take this cup from me?
Reilloc: I don’t remember it that way.
BPRAL22169: Overlap, yes, tht’s a good word — another way of coming at some of the same ideas. That’s why I suggested “gloss”
AGplusone: Jubal gets to play lots of roles. Sometimes he’s John the Baptist
Reilloc: Jubal was asking Mike not to take up the cup.
BPRAL22169: Mike doesn’t ask Jubal to take this cup from him — it’s not in Jubal’s power to do so; it’s in the circumstances Mike has set up.
Reilloc: So, who’s who?
aggirlj: (I see Abbott and Costello lurking here.)
BRSTAHL: Mike is Christ
Reilloc: Somebody invite Pix, please?
BPRAL22169: But Mike (apparently) thinks he can set it up to avoid the martyrdom and is asking for advice on whether he ought to do it that way or let the martyrdom proceed.
AGplusone: Sometimes he’s “Father Jubal” … done.
Kultsi KN: jshe’s here
BJ Maranta: isn’t pix here?
aggirlj: She’s here but probably away.
Reilloc: She says the room window’s gone.
aggirlj: Interesting, I’ll invite her and see what pops.
BPRAL22169: All categories get screwed up in the “Thou art God” trope; dn’t expect a one-for-one correspondence.
DavidWrightSr: I tried an invite, but it said that she was already in the room
pixelmeow: hello
AGplusone: Ah, worked
jilyd: There you are, young lady!
pixelmeow: I don’t know what happened but the window had disappeared
Reilloc: Hey, Bill and Dave.
BPRAL22169: Yo
AGplusone: It does get us into Eros-Agape and whatever else there is in TEFL
AGplusone: Here, Sergeant!
Reilloc: When Bill says “don’t expect a one-for-one correspondence” isn’t he saying, “it’s all a matter of what you want to read into it?”
jilyd: I need to go, guys. Enjoyed it.
BJ Maranta: Night, Dee!
AGplusone: bye Dee
aggirlj: Bye Dee.
BRSTAHL: Good Night
pixelmeow: bye Dee
Reilloc: We put you to sleep Dee?
Kultsi KN: bye, Dee
jilyd: No, but some phone calls need making.
AGplusone: round off the decimals is always necessary with analogy or any trope
jilyd: Goodnight.
jilyd has left the chat room.
Reilloc: Later, then…
Reilloc: Round off, eh?
AGplusone: bash, smash, file to fit and cover with a thick coat of OD paint
BJ Maranta: lol
Reilloc: Talk about one of your more obvious euphemisms for “call it whatever you want and dare anybody to disagree.”
AGplusone: naw, anyone can YMMV
BPRAL22169: The test of a theory is — does it work.
Reilloc: The test of a theory is, “is it reproducible.”
AGplusone: In some petrie dishes it is … some don’t
AGplusone: depends on what is in the petrie dish
Reilloc: So, getting down to cases, there’s no sexual reproduction on Mars.
Reilloc: Just like there’s no prostitution anywhere but Earth in Glory Road.
AGplusone: unless you’re Willis age
Kim Kinnison999: oh..probably something sexual..involving pollen or something
BRSTAHL: There is, but it’s between nymphs and adults.
AGplusone: The Old Ones get no nookie
BJ Maranta: Mars in Stranger…. not Mars in RP
Reilloc: Why is it that Heinlein has to set up such bizarre absolutes to make a point?
BPRAL22169: No, LNC, theories don’t need to be reproducible except in certain narrowly defined circumstances.
BPRAL22169: No, there’s plenty of sexual reproduction in Mars — it’s just not done in the human style.
AGplusone: But the Old Ones get to run stuff over in their Heaven.
BPRAL22169: Well, DAvid, they ARE dead!
AGplusone: After you pull a hitch with the Glaroom, you get to do a tour in the Martian Heaven.
BJ Maranta: Well that’s a convenient excuse, eh, Bill? : -)
Kim Kinnison999: not dead..discorporated..an important (apparently!) difference
AGplusone: Well, they do frequently get eaten.
Reilloc: Not discorporated until dissolved, filed and wound up.
BPRAL22169: Of course, if they were so gosh-danged powerful, you’d think they could set it up so they could get some. IIRC the Moslem heaven was opened up for some humans.
AGplusone:
Reilloc: I got it.
BJ Maranta: Nice try, David… we ain’t buying it : -)
Reilloc: You didn’t acknowledge my Capistrano remark but I got it.
BRSTAHL: But this is the difference. The Martians aren’t looking for any.
AGplusone: That’s cause there’s no prostitution on Earth.
BJ Maranta: Martians don’t know what they’re missing… until Mike comes along
Reilloc: That makes somebody’s profession the oldest.
AGplusone: I smiled at Capistrano
aggirlj: Wonder which one that might be LN
Reilloc: Fiction writers.
Reilloc: Worthless whores.
AGplusone: my theory is shaman is the oldest, next came prostitute, then lawyers to defend the prostitutes from the shamans
Reilloc: See, Dave agrees.
aggirlj: 🙂
BPRAL22169: My goodness — there is blue sky above me!
BPRAL22169: That’s something I haven’t seen in a couple of weeks!
AGplusone: prostitute = writers need defense from the shamans
AGplusone: always have
Reilloc: Somebody say Heinlein wasn’t a shaman.
aggirlj: Possibly a guru.
Reilloc: Who claimed to be a whore.
AGplusone: only the flower children believed Heinlein was a shaman … formed CAW in reality
Reilloc: And wanted to be a lawyer.
Kultsi KN: nah, the prossie was there first, and the shamans came in to share — and the lawyers bleed them both
BJ Maranta: He did for money, professionally, what some people do for free as a hobby… hrm…
BJ Maranta: or as a duty
BRSTAHL: He said, do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.
AGplusone: Who is it that wrote: one day some stranger came to our land, sat around the fire one night and said, “I see visions. From now on, you all have to give me all your money, follow my one true god, and obey me in all things.” And
AGplusone: they all said, “Sounds good to me.”
Reilloc: Steven Wright?
AGplusone: Then he said, “I have this thing called the Bible.”
BJ Maranta: lol… was just talking about that today. Here in Jolly Old england, about 3000 years ago or so, the stranger not only said that, but also said “Hey, let’s erect a whole bunch of big friggin rocks in a circle, too”
BPRAL22169: Sounds like a loose — very loose — translation of _Genealogy of Morals_
BPRAL22169: Brian — have you read Leon STover’s and Harry Harrison’s _Stonehenge_ novel?
AGplusone: [which I found miraculously the other day when I was up on the mountain]
BJ Maranta: No, Bill
AGplusone: What is Genealogy of Morals?
BPRAL22169: It’s an interesting theory
BRSTAHL: Well, Heinlein wrote that preachers are too lazy to farm, and don’t have the brains for useful thinking. (paraphrazing Alec in Job and Maureen Long).
BPRAL22169: Genealogy of Morals was Nietzsche — 1876 or something like that, when he was trying out his “aphoristic” style.
AGplusone: Or Laz in TEFL
Reilloc: It’s like Bob Dole’s explanation for running for office: inside work, no heavy lifting.
aggirlj: Have to go. Need food! Later, nice to see everyone.
Reilloc: Later, Jane.
BJ Maranta: Night, Sis! : -)
BRSTAHL: Bye
Kultsi KN: nite, Jane!
BPRAL22169: Actually I need to go, too — I wanted to get to the store today before nightfall.
AGplusone: back to other ideas for chat topics … aside from what I suggested Thursday night, any suggestions?
aggirlj: {{{{hugs to all}}}}}
aggirlj has left the chat room.
AGplusone: nite Jane
Kultsi KN: no 7-11, Bill?
AGplusone: Thursday was poke around in TEFL and Stranger for language usages …
Reilloc: You need to narrow that down, Dave.
AGplusone: since I’ve got a panel topic, two of em actually, that I need to respond to …
BJ Maranta: eep… lookit the time… I have to head out myself, folks. Really enjoyed the chat; thanks for all the invites! : -)
AGplusone: Any topic suggestions for the next several meetings
AGplusone: thank you Brian
BRSTAHL: Bye
Kultsi KN: gosh, Brian, it’s just past midnught…
Kultsi KN: g’night
BJ Maranta: Yah, and I have school work to do tomorrow… lol
Reilloc: Later, Brian. Thanks for the invite.
AGplusone: Well, you know the English, Kultsi … and Brian’s being changed into one. Heh.
BJ Maranta: I say, David, wot!?
AGplusone: [anything to keep Brian here for a while]
AGplusone: until he suggests a topic
Kultsi KN: yeh, never time enuff for a decent drink
Reilloc: Hey, Dave. How about some kind of little exercise instead of a discussion topic?
BRSTAHL: This is the advantage to my being in Virginia instead of Jordan. It’s after 2 there.
AGplusone: frex?
BJ Maranta: “The nature of “evil villains” in RAH books” : -)
Reilloc: Write a mock Heinlein story and discuss the submission.
Reilloc: submissions
BJ Maranta: Cheers, All!
BJ Maranta has left the chat room.
pixelmeow: ‘nite!
AGplusone: Thank you Brian.
AGplusone: Would be real hard to keep a herd of cats in the same universe on that one, but we could try it.
Kultsi KN: OTOH, the English gals run around w/o knickers, I hear
BPRAL22169 has left the chat room.
Reilloc: The French, they are a funny race…
AGplusone: Any other topics: Kim?
Kim Kinnison999: hm? did somebody say knickers?
AGplusone: btw, Kim, I’m David
AGplusone: does Dave Wright have your email to alert to chat topics?
AGplusone: You want to do “knickers” in Heinlein?
Kim Kinnison999: naw AG..tooeasy..all they do is come off. yeah, i’ve been on the mailing list for years
Reilloc: Briefs or boxers?
AGplusone: LV?
Reilloc: Briefs are tedious and boxers rebellious.
pixelmeow: snerk!
AGplusone: Bryan?
AGplusone: Pixel?
AGplusone: suggestions, or as Mickey Soft says, “Where do you want to go today?”
BRSTAHL: Thinking, because I’m never sure if I can show up until the last minute.
LV Poker Player: One thing I have thought about is discussing mentions of gambling. There are quite a few of them.
AGplusone: That’s okay. We’ll do anything.
AGplusone: That’s a topic …
LV Poker Player: I don’t know just how much actual discussion this would generate though.
Reilloc: It’s a gamble.
Kim Kinnison999: picked up a copy of ‘for us’ finally. interesting. what was the thought here on such a system working?
Kultsi KN: TEFL?
AGplusone: throw in games as well
BRSTAHL: It’s usually how his heroes build a stake in poker.
AGplusone: I thought we’d do TEFL and Stranger next meeting, K. Been a while since we been there
AGplusone: Looking for beyond that
Reilloc: TEFL and Stranger?
AGplusone: So people can “get it out of storage”
Kultsi KN: ok. NotB
AGplusone: Yeah, sorta wide-ranging
Reilloc: Oh, just 1,200 pages ranging…
Dehede011: Folks I need to get along now. Bye
Dehede011 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: it’ll keep me from spending too much time in bars chasing wimmen
Reilloc: How about: TEFL–or is it just TEFS?
BRSTAHL: Idea for down the road, Job versus World as Myth. Similarities, differances, etc.
Kultsi KN: not bad
AGplusone: which means “time enough for sex” and that is possible. I’d like to talk about Job and how it could possibly fit or not in WAM
Reilloc: Wake me up before you go, go.
Kim Kinnison999: don’t see a debate there. WAM by it’s nature encompassed everything
AGplusone: Okay. Think on it, and when we publish this log, come up with anything else that may seem right.
LV Poker Player: Kim is the only one here I don’t recognize from AFH, are you on there?
Kim Kinnison999: i haven’t been for quite some time, no.
AGplusone: It did, but how is the question, Kim.
Kim Kinnison999: or..how godly are those middle managers and supervisors we saw in the ‘office’ outside their universe?
LV Poker Player: You may not know that my interest in gambling is because I play online poker for a living.
AGplusone: Which universe, in which managerial positions?
Reilloc: Stranger and Digby, for example.
BRSTAHL: And the WAM question: what kind of sick author created my life?
Kim Kinnison999: final scenes in Job
Kultsi KN: that would depend on the persons POV, Kim
Kim Kinnison999: well.near the end
AGplusone: Ah, so, working with the Glaroom … which is where Digby comes back from
AGplusone: Would like to see Laz sitting in a hot tub with Friday, trying to keep her from breaking both his thumbs if she got annoyed.
AGplusone: Be worse than Sharpie ever did to him
Kultsi KN: me too, David
BRSTAHL: Remember, Laz can be extremely charming when he tries.
AGplusone: he better
Kultsi KN: ..get into knickers
BRSTAHL: Well, he’s good at that, too.
AGplusone: theory was Heinlein was heading for what followed Children of the Lens
AGplusone: Kim?
AGplusone: The unwritten story Doc Smith told him about
Kim Kinnison999: eh? a..god mind of some kind to watch over Civilization? : -D
Kultsi KN: Q: which would annoy Friday: the offer made, or the inability to deliver?
Kim Kinnison999: or the mating of the girls with their brother?
Kim Kinnison999: grandchildren of the lens..yeah. He was blatently obvious about it for the times
AGplusone: Depends on whether Friday stayed out of overdrive. The old what does Clark Kent do for girlfriends in Smallville.
LV Poker Player: I have often wondered if incestous offspring was involved, since it was unpublishable at the time.
Reilloc: If I may be excused…
Reilloc: Thanks for having had me….
AGplusone: Well, closing on 5 PM out here in raining la-la ville. Bridge Sunday, LN?
Kim Kinnison999: AG..i always think of ‘Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue Paper’
Reilloc: Are we doing it at noon or 11: 00 your time, David?
AGplusone: 11 is good for me
Reilloc: I’d like 11: 00
AGplusone: want to let Rufe and Bill know?
Reilloc: I’ll send out the invite/reminder.
AGplusone: thank you
Reilloc: Thank you and thank you all.
Reilloc: Good night.
AGplusone: play bridge, anyone?
AGplusone: g’nite
BRSTAHL: Good Night
Kultsi KN: Nite, LN
AGplusone: we can use fifths
Reilloc has left the chat room.
AGplusone: both kinds
BRSTAHL: Sorry, never learned the game.
AGplusone: not a bad one …
Kim Kinnison999: i like spades and hearts, but i never graduated
AGplusone: and we sit in a room like this and talk while it goes on
AGplusone: if you feel like kibitzing, feel free … IMs work. We’ll be on line.
AGplusone: anone
AGplusone: anyone
Kultsi KN: no can do
AGplusone: what is 11 AM PST for you K?
BRSTAHL: Well, unforntuately, I’m supposed to be learning Spanish now. This took away time that should have been spent on irregular past tense verbs.
AGplusone: going to SA?
Kim Kinnison999: y’all got me thinking about finding an online, NO MONEY poker game..
Kultsi KN: what time is it now?
BRSTAHL: Hermosillo, Mexico.
AGplusone: It’s 4: 47 PM
AGplusone: That will be nice and sorta close
AGplusone: closer
Kultsi KN: that would be 9 PM — ten-hour difference
BRSTAHL: Not bad, if I can get the State Dept. doctors to leave me alone and let me go. Three hours from Arizona.
AGplusone: Sonora
BRSTAHL: That’s it.
AGplusone: big train to mazatlan run through there?
BRSTAHL: Yes. on up to the border crossing at Nogales.
AGplusone: I always wanted to take that train ride
AGplusone: We could plan the Heinlein Centennial in Mazatlan, and watch the cathedral crumble twice
BRSTAHL: The area sounds nice.
LV Poker Player: Play money poker is available online, as well as the real money kind that I am playing now.
BRSTAHL: PIXEL, you awake?
AGplusone: Hope they let you go!
LV Poker Player: If Kim or anyone else goes to real money play, let me know because I can get you into a frequent player bonus program that will benefit both of us.
BRSTAHL: Thanks! They insist they’re taking care of me.
AGplusone: Well, “now it’s time to say goodnight for all our companee”
AGplusone: Thank you all for coming.
AGplusone: I’ll post the next date on AFH, as usual.
BRSTAHL: Thank you. I guess I’ll leave now, too.
AGplusone: Hi, Dave. Got log?
DavidWrightSr: Got everything from when I came in and your log that you sent. Should be able to put it all together
Kultsi KN: the sun won’t be up for quite a while, but it is getting early…
DavidWrightSr: plus my log from the regular room
AGplusone: Haven’t gone down to Mazatlan in 20 years. Be nice to go back.
Kim Kinnison999: good night.
Kim Kinnison999 has left the chat room.
AGplusone: Okay, g’nite Dave.
BRSTAHL: Good night
AGplusone: Night all.
BRSTAHL has left the chat room.
Kultsi KN: g’night all!
Kultsi KN has left the chat room.
End of Discussion
