Thursday 12-12-02 8:00 P.M. EST
Red Planet Back to School, Part III
Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
From: David M. Silver
Subject: RAH RG chat — Red Planet — 12/12 & 14/02
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:52 PM
RAH Reading Group Chat — Red Planet
Back to School, Part III
Times: Thursday, December 12, 8 to 11 PM, ET, and Saturday, December 14, 2002, 5 to 8 PM, ET
Place: AIM chatroom “Heinlein Readers Group chat”
Two days seems a little short notice, but it appears to have the chat sooner rather than delay it further is the consensus, so we’ll try it . Perhaps we’ll continue this chat, if discussion warrants it, another date after the first of the coming year as well.
In Red Planet, Chapter One, entitled “Willis,” begins:
“The thin air of Montana was chill but not really cold. It was not
winter in northern latitudes and daytime temperature was usually above
freezing. . . . ”
Okay, I lied, Elizabeth; and I’m teasing you, of course. Heinlein was writing about Mars of the future, not Montana of this week; but it’s close, isn’t it?
“The thin air of Mars was chill but not really cold. It was not winter
in southern latitudes and daytime temperature was usually above
freezing. . . . ”
And my point is this: the Mars Heinlein described for juveniles reading Red Planet in 1949 wasn’t all that alien, even if it was located another seven minutes out in the Solar System at the speed of light from the Sun. IOW, colonization of space was shown as *possible,* even likely in just a few years, or decades, or perhaps generations, in the future of those readers.
Perhaps a teaching approach might be, for this, the juvenile I am most likely to recommend as a first Heinlein read to parents of younger children, that it deliberately was intended to inspire a desire among those children actually to be the first generation that did colonize the planets outside Earth.
Why do you suppose a reader of Heinlein juveniles might feel that way? What makes this third in the series of Heinlein’s juveniles different from the first two: Rocket Ship Galileo and Space Cadet?
What features are designed to attract especially the affections of juvenile readers that may not have been present in earlier juvenile novels written by this author? And what else distinguishes this novel from those juvenile or young adult novels that went before it–not only Heinlein’s, but the writings of others?
Why is Heinlein considered the ‘man who sold the moon’ to the generations who read his juveniles? How did he do it, beginning with Red Planet to shape the typical Heinlein juvenile, rather than what was done by others before?
Some of these answers may help define not only teaching approaches, but the distinguishing characteristics employed by this master of young adult novels.
See you all in the chat room in two days. Remember, there is no requirement that you have read all of, or even read recently, this novel to attend the chats. For information on downloading the necessary software and using it, see David Wright’s website instructions at:
David M. Silver
Subject: Re: RAH RG chat — Red Planet — 12/12 & 14/02
Date: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:12 AM
“David M. Silver”wrote:
> RAH Reading Group Chat — Red Planet
> Back to School, Part III
> Times: Thursday, December 12, 8 to 11 PM, ET, and Saturday, December 14,
> 2002, 5 to 8 PM, ET
> Place: AIM chatroom “Heinlein Readers Group chat”
> Two days seems a little short notice, but it appears to have the chat
> sooner rather than delay it further is the consensus, so we’ll try it .
> Perhaps we’ll continue this chat, if discussion warrants it, another
> date after the first of the coming year as well.
> In Red Planet, Chapter One, entitled “Willis,” begins:
> “The thin air of Montana was chill but not really cold. It was not
> winter in northern latitudes and daytime temperature was usually above
> freezing. . . . ”
> Okay, I lied, Elizabeth; and I’m teasing you, of course. Heinlein was
> writing about Mars of the future, not Montana of this week; but it’s
> close, isn’t it?
I had to read that twice and I was about to go get my book when I spied the lead in the next paragraph! It is actually fairly nice out, big snowflakes falling and sticking. It is our first snowfall this year, YIPPEEEE! No wind to speak of, just gentle snowfall.
I’ll be there Thursday and possibly pop in Saturday before heading to work.
(snip questions, will discuss this in chat)
Go To Postings
Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
AGplusone has entered the room.
aggirlj has entered the room.
AGplusone: I did forget. I was in Heinlein Readers Chat group
AGplusone: Hi, Jane
Sarah Hoyt has entered the room.
aggirlj: Hi David, hi Sarah!
AGplusone: Hello Sarah
DavidWrightSr: This is the HRG chat!
aggirlj: Hello David Sr.
AGplusone: right! Long afternoon, thinking about that long flight backwards to Gander.
AGplusone: God, it was Cold!
DavidWrightSr: Yeah, that was fun.
Sarah Hoyt: Um… I was just admitting to not doing my homework.
AGplusone: Beat the hell out of eight days bouncing up and down on the Patch.
Sarah Hoyt: It’s been several years since I read Red Planet.
aggirlj: Ohhhhhhhh, I’m in the same boat.
Sarah Hoyt: Why do I feel like I’m at confession?
DavidWrightSr: Bless my child!
AGplusone: Say a good Act of Contrition, Sarah, and three Our Fathers and three Hail Marys.
Sarah Hoyt: My son, Robert, has read Red Planet recently, but he claims he’s doing homework. (Ah!) He does his homework at school, between classes, but he likes to pretend.
Sarah Hoyt: Um… that appropriate for THIS church, David?
aggirlj: And an act of contrition.
AGplusone: Works for me.
Sarah Hoyt: Wouldn’t it be better if I just promised to read… Oh, hum… TEFL?
Sarah Hoyt: I have it out right now, and it seems so cruel to return it to the shelf without reading it first?
AGplusone: All you need is Love, Love, that’s all you need.
Sarah Hoyt: 🙂
Sarah Hoyt: Silly.
AGplusone: Well, had a good time rereading Red Planet. I always forget how much fun it is.
LadyS122 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Lady
LadyS122: hi… what’s the topic tonight? (I haven’t read the newsgroup for a long time.)
AGplusone: Hi, Lily, Hi, Lo.
AGplusone: Red Planet
Copycat669 has entered the room.
Sarah Hoyt: Hi.
AGplusone: Guten aben, Copycat … ltnc
LadyS122: cool… I have to AFK.. but I’ll be back for the second half of the chat…
Sarah Hoyt: I’ll be up and down — I have to feed kitties and kiddies.
LadyS122 has left the room.
Copycat669: hi guys!!
AGplusone: See what Willis wants while you’re up, okay?
aggirlj: Hi Copycat
Copycat669: it’s been a while, but i’m glad to be back. I only have a few minutesand then we have to run look at lights but that shouldn’t take longer thanan hour.
AGplusone: Christmas Tree lights?
Copycat669: house lights. i work for the newspaper and i have to judge them. 🙂
AGplusone: I belong to the school sez “sneak it in on the night of the 24th, and remove it two days later before it becomes a fire hazard; but my wife and daughter never agree. We usually takes ours down around February.
aggirlj: I haven’t taken my lights down from last year, the first to light them.
AGplusone: Saves climbing up that ladder again.
AGplusone: and you can use them on the fourth of July
AGplusone: if they’re red, white and blue
aggirlj: Dagleisch(sp?) was quite the prude.
AGplusone: About Red Planet … a couple things: Ginny Heinlein mentioned to me that this was the last of the juveniles that RAH actually outlined before he started writing.
DavidWrightSr: I didn’t know that he outlined anything except SIASL
AGplusone: After this, he just sat down and started writing . . .
AGplusone: She says he outlined Galileo and Space Cadet as well …
AGplusone: new genre I suppose and he was teaching himself to write them
DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I can see that
AGplusone: You’ll recall his original outline for Space Cadet had the Matt bombs Iowa that RAH finally decided to change.
AGplusone: We mentioned that last time.
AGplusone: So I wondered, since he did outline it, how it actually is structured … what kind of tale is it? What does it remind you of that you’ve read elsewhere?
AGplusone: Anything? anyone? guesses count.
Copycat669: I haven’t read this one.
Copycat669: Sorry. 😉
DavidWrightSr: I wonder if the outlines are in the Heinlein Library.
AGplusone: That’s okay. We have an outline probably on Joe Major’s site you can glance over.
AGplusone: But it’s a “boy goes away to boarding school” sort of story, for one thing.
Copycat669: so it’s not a book that was written?
aggirlj: I can only comment as far as I’ve read, and sadly I haven’t gotten that far. But the beginning reminds me of Space Cadets and classes if this is what you’re asking.
aggirlj: Or the indoctrination process.
AGplusone: Oh, no. It was written. I read it in ’54 when I discovered Heinlein.
Sarah Hoyt: A book that was written?
Copycat669: Ok. I’m confused now. 🙂
aggirlj: Sorry so am I.
Sarah Hoyt: Oh, okay. I get it. What David means is that it was outlined BEFORE it was written.
AGplusone: But it’s not a boy goes to West Point for indoctrination tale. Nor, Tom Brown’s School Days.
Sarah Hoyt: Writers sometimes outline books completely before writing htem.
Sarah Hoyt: Sometimes they have a general idea and go with it.
AGplusone: This is what Ginny says Robert did with the first three.
Sarah Hoyt: I rather like the second method better.
Sarah Hoyt: Leaves more room to get twisty.
AGplusone: But here, you have a little complication: boy insists on taking his pet with him, rather imature of him, you might think.
Copycat669: I usually write with the general idea and then find myself expanding the story. So I start with a short story and make it into a novel. 🙂
Sarah Hoyt: Um… wonder if I “felt” that about RP. It’s never been one of my favorites. Of course, I came to all the juveniles late.
AGplusone: Red Planet was pretty much my early favorite.
aggirlj: He doesn’t really consider him a pet, more of a friend.
Copycat669: REd planet!! OHHHHH
AGplusone: True, but he’s functionally a pet.
Copycat669: I felt that the story was hokey.
Sarah Hoyt: All kid’s stories are Hokey to adults.
Copycat669: A bad heinlein story is still good. 🙂 but the ending was hokey even for a kid
Sarah Hoyt: Harry Potter being a case in point.
AGplusone: It’s a simple story. Boy goes away to school. Hans Brinker modified …
Sarah Hoyt: I vaguely remember being very impressed with the character “growth.”
Copycat669: I mean it just got warped in my opinoin. (and I LOVE harry potter, btw.)
AGplusone: also a retelling of the american revolution
aggirlj: Just getting into that.
Copycat669: the ending is twisted. I think if this is a good example of what happens when RAH outlined, then I’m glad he didn’t outline all his books.
Copycat669: Everything’s too wrapped up. Too quaint. Every piece fits too snugly.
aggirlj: Which edition did you read? 1940’s or recent.
Musiquelle26 has entered the room.
Copycat669: mine’s del ray. copyright renewed 76.
Selfish has entered the room.
Copycat669: is it different?
aggirlj: I’m looking for my date.
AGplusone: Hi, Musiquelle. Taking about plot of Red Planet. Is it too simple or too pat a plot for you?
Copycat669: Sleeping in a cabbage? Holy cats, that’s just a bit much for me to swallow.
Selfish: where are u all from
aggirlj: Reading the older one there is a lot of interesting editing.
AGplusone: There were substantial cuts in Red Planet to satisfy Scribners editor, Dahgliesh. In 91 the uncut version was printed.
Copycat669: Well heck. There are so many uncuts that I need to get my hands on. *Grumbles as I edit my christmas wish list…*
aggirlj: I’m sorry, first revised 1990
AGplusone: We’re a reading chat group, S, and we discuss novels written by Robert Heinlein. Tonight we’re talking about a novel titled Red Planet.
Musiquelle26: It was a bit simple, but I enjoyed reading it. It had the quick feel to it of a lunch-break book.
Copycat669: hehe. well gang, I’m leaving for a bit. See ya in an hour. 😉 I”llprobly have been to Dairy Queen by then, too. Anybody want anything? (hehehejust teasing…)
AGplusone: Thanks for coming, CC
aggirlj: Bye for now.
Musiquelle26: Not to digress away from the book, but did anyone see the mini series animated version? 1994
AGplusone: I never have. Would like to see a copy. Someone last year or so ago said he had or thought he had tapes.
aggirlj: No, but have heard of it and I think it was discussed briefly on the newsgroup.
Musiquelle26: I did, not faithful to the book but aimed to interest today’s kids and I thought it was enjoyable
Selfish: are any movies ever better
AGplusone: Been told they made Doc MacRae very much like Laz Long
Musiquelle26: Yes. Very much so.
AGplusone: I think it was DenvToday (Ron) who had a copy of it.
Musiquelle26: Fox, I think, had wanted to do a running series of the juvies, but RedPlanet filed to catch abig enough bite, so they abandoned the project
Musiquelle26: (typing tonight is atrocious)
aggirlj: I got it.
Sarah Hoyt: I have to go. The kids are revolting.
AGplusone: See you, Sarah. come back if you can
aggirlj: Bye Sarah, hope to see you soon. Come ona’ my house.
Sarah Hoyt: Will try. (readies self with whip, chair and stun gun.)
Sarah Hoyt: (for the kids.)
Musiquelle26: They can’t be that bad
Sarah Hoyt: Oldest one is named Robert Anson. He’s 11, taller than I and… um… cunning is the word. Wish me luck.
Musiquelle26: You have it
Sarah Hoyt: Bye.
Sarah Hoyt has left the room.
Musiquelle26: I’m lucky, my two ran away to the neighbors
AGplusone: I was reminded of Doc Rufo’s manners while I reread Red Planet when I read MacRae. Courtly …
aggirlj: Very southern gentleman.
AGplusone: Somehow I never see Lazarus Long as particularly courtly.
aggirlj: Quite the charmer.
AGplusone: Of course, they’re all from Missouri.
Musiquelle26: I don’t know, I think he can be if it is needed. He just isn’t in the latter books…too cranky
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
AGplusone: Heinlein, Rufo, and Lazarus Long … hi, Bill.
Heinleinsmof: ‘Lo David, all
aggirlj: Hi Bill.
Heinleinsmof: I’m afraid my connection is very slow right now
aggirlj: We’re kinda pausing.
AGplusone: Was mentioning what Ginny told me a few weeks back about Red Planet, that it was the last of the juveniles RAH outlined before he started writing it. Any indication that the outline may still exist: in Santa Cruz or elsewhere?
AGplusone: Connection slow at the Beresford Arms, eh?
AGplusone: Do they still have dial phones there?
Heinleinsmof has left the room.
AGplusone: Reminds me of the connection we got when I went to Philly. I think it was about 10 mb
AGplusone: and I got booted just about as often.
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
Musiquelle26: I’d like to go back and read the juvies in chronological order of publication…just to see the evolution of the writing
Heinleinsmof: Sorry about that — we just had a power outage. Did any of my reply come through?
AGplusone: That’s what we’ve been doing, M. Started about two months ago with RSG, and then to SC.
Heinleinsmof: Ok — I haven’t had a chance to look at the Red Planet box.
aggirlj: I’ve started reading these for the first time.
AGplusone: Why I called this thing “Back to School III” … third juvenile.
aggirlj: Oh, I’m responsible huh 😛
Heinleinsmof: He had pretty much stopped outlining for his own purposes by 1940, and the outline was just for Alice Dalgliesh’s purpose, but after she approved the outline then bitched about Red Planet, he decided it wasn’t worth the hassle.
aggirlj: No, I guess not on second reading.
Musiquelle26: I’ve been a bit busy…wish I had been keeping up
AGplusone: Actually, what we’re seeing is: can we use any of these juveniles today as a teaching edition. We’re just starting and going slow. You can probably catch up.
AGplusone: If you have copies of the first two: Rocket Ship Galileo and Space Cadet.
Musiquelle26: I can probably find copies
AGplusone: That’s interesting … now I understand part of it. It is possible that anyone may have kept Dalgliesh’s correspondence files?
Heinleinsmof: I think Simon & Schuster bought Scribner’s — they might still have the files.
AGplusone: I’d be very interested in the outline to Space Cadet, re the bombing …
Heinleinsmof: I’ve never run across a reference to an outline for Space Cadet.
Heinleinsmof: And in any case, he changed the ending in mid-composition.
AGplusone: Ginny said he had one. and the change is what I’m looking at with interest.
AGplusone: I’d wonder how he tried to finesse that by Dalgliesh.
Heinleinsmof: I’ve been looking at the files for the early stories, but I haven’t looked at many of the book files.
Heinleinsmof: I suspect AD was happier with the changed ending.
Heinleinsmof: I am going back in January or February; I can make special looks then, if anyone is interested.
AGplusone: Anyway, back to Red Planet … (I would have been — hard to sell an ending in which boy bombs family)
AGplusone: i.e., boy bombs family book bombs
aggirlj: Yeah, I’m goin’ Whaaaaaat.
Heinleinsmof: It might have killed the sales to libraries that were the backbone of his books for Scribner’s.
AGplusone: Original outline for Space Cadet was Matt winds up having to drop bomb on hometown.
AGplusone: To Keep The Peace
AGplusone: sort of an extreme for a juvenile lesson, wouldn’t you say?
Heinleinsmof: That’s the tradition of the Space Patrol — and I think he had one of the Immortal Four do that, didn’t he?
Musiquelle26: That’s in keeping with what I expect of the classic sci-fi writers
AGplusone: Bombed Rio (while he was there).
AGplusone: or was it Buenos Aires
Heinleinsmof: Right. No, I don’t think it’s extreme — it’s an object lesson in keeping to your values and your oath, no matter how much it hurts — what could be more important to teach a teenager?
jilyd has entered the room.
Musiquelle26: Classic sci-fi tended to make me think out of the box
AGplusone: Hi, Dee
aggirlj: Hi Dee.
Heinleinsmof: But it would have made it hard to imply Matt had a fulfilled and happy life after that.
jilyd: Hi, everyone. Good to see you.
AGplusone: Well, there’s an argument that it’s a great lesson, like the idiot Spartan boy who dies from the fox bite.
AGplusone: A rather extreme example of the finger in the dike
Heinleinsmof: Well — yeah. But on the other hand it puts the message across Very Clearly that you can’t terrorize or blackmail the Patrol
AGplusone: But imagine the reaction for the time: Hitler Youth. They’d have asked if that was what he was trying to teach juveniles.
aggirlj: Didn’t think of that.
aggirlj: But not surprised.
AGplusone: Do we have anything like the same sort of lesson in Red Planet?
aggirlj: Well, let’s talk about the headmaster.
AGplusone: We do have two very devoted boys skating an awful long way . . . which is why it’s almost a Hans Brinker for real.
AGplusone: I always thought the dangerous ordeal was the more appealling part of the plot.
Musiquelle26: Is this the first book that shows us Martians? (my brain’s not working too well)
AGplusone: Yes, it is, M
Heinleinsmof: Hans Brinker occurred to me too — but also the runner of Marathon.
AGplusone: Yes. What was his name? The one who collapsed and died after running back to Athens to announce the victory?
AGplusone: I suppose he stopped the abandonment of the City, and probably saved a lot of grief, but I always viewed that act with a bit of scepticism. Why bother so hard? Over doing something?
Heinleinsmof: Phedipides? There are some doubled consonants in there, but I forget which ones.
AGplusone: But the boys skating are saving lives directly. Bringing very bad news that must be acted upon. Yes, that’s the name.
TreetopAngelRN2 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Frank’s mother, for example, will surely die if they don’t prevent the Company’s plans.
AGplusone: Hi, Elizabeth
Heinleinsmof: I think the urgency was to prevent an unnecessary surrender.
aggirlj: Hi Elizabeth :-[
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Everyone, am I late?
AGplusone: It could have been. that’s the only way it’s understandable for the Marathon runner’s action.
Heinleinsmof: I think we started a little earlier today.
AGplusone: Not too late. We started an hour early as we have lately.
TreetopAngelRN2: I was thinking 7 pm my time…why sad face Jane?
AGplusone: Trying to keep you right coasters from freezing too hard in the dark.
Heinleinsmof: And of course Pheidippides died after the marathon run, but our boys have further roles to play.
aggirlj: Not sad, just a little embarassed.
Heinleinsmof: I was freezing in the dark here half an hour ago.
TreetopAngelRN2: e-mail me
Musiquelle26 has left the room.
Dehede011 has entered the room.
AGplusone: That’s a local problem in San Francisco this time of the year, Bill. Why I live in Southern California.
TreetopAngelRN2:where are we?
Dehede011: Good evening, folks
Musiquelle26 has entered the room.
Heinleinsmof: The temp has dropped below 50 with the storm front moving in.
AGplusone: Talking about the sacrifice of the boys when they skate to warn the colony.
AGplusone: Nearly die, I’d say, but for the intervention of the martians . . .
Heinleinsmof: I like it cooler — but I’ve lost my adaptation to the cold over the last 13 years
Dehede011: I prefer warm weather like we have here in Chicago.
TreetopAngelRN2: Frank was certainly in bad shape and I think another night out would have finished them both.
AGplusone: Sleeping in a cabbage. Did that seem too cute for anyone else. I was always intrigued by that little twist.
Dehede011: I was astounded
jilyd has left the room.
TreetopAngelRN2: I thought it was neat.
Heinleinsmof: That’s so very Heinleinian — it’s the boys’ “family” relationship with the alien Willis that changes the course of human history.
aggirlj: Didn’t we all come from cabagges?
AGplusone: Right out of Daniel Boone tales … keeping warm in Alaska in the carcass of a slain bear, etc.
Heinleinsmof: “Under” cabbages, I think.
TreetopAngelRN2: my sister did…
aggirlj: I stand corrected.
AGplusone: I was found under a cabbage. Mother said Jane was found under a Daisy. Mother always liked you best, Jane.
Heinleinsmof: I’m called out and have to leave — my hotel serves dinner on a fixed schedule.
aggirlj: Come back soon.
Dehede011: Stork brought me, that is why I grew up loving flying
TreetopAngelRN2: Bye! Have a good dinner
Heinleinsmof: Possibly in an hour or so. Ciao all.
AGplusone: See you, Bill. Of course, under a cabbage is better than bought as a Blue Light special kit at K-Mart.
Dehede011: Bye Treetop
Heinleinsmof has left the room.
TreetopAngelRN2: I was hatched from a lizard egg on a hot rock
AGplusone: Hi, Ron. We’re discussing the plot of Red Planet. Did it seem too simple when you first read it, or what …. ?
TreetopAngelRN2: was the explanation for why the boys did not suffocate satisfactory for everyone or a bit far-fetched
AGplusone: No, I bought it. Thought it good science … and very interesting!
Dehede011: As usual Heinlein captivated me with that story. I think I was busy assimilating the adulthood he showed me
AGplusone: Great gimmick. Appealled to me.
aggirlj: I haven’t gotten that far. But I did want to know why there was no need for pressurization in the first encounter.
TreetopAngelRN2: I liked it, too…some others I have met have said it sounded too much
AGplusone: Which encounter specifically?
aggirlj: At the way station in the earlier part of the story. With the meeting.
Dehede011: Letting that cabbage enfold them sounded deliciously exciting to a teenager like I was
TreetopAngelRN2: The Martians have mystical ways…as it should be!
AGplusone: I understand RAH and Ginny spent some hours calculating how much area would be needed for x amount of Oxygen to be generated, etc., a la the John Campbell requirements (which were lost on Dalgliesh).
AGplusone: John Campbell, when RAH was writing earlier stories, always insisted that the science be more than merely plausible.
aggirlj: I’m glad.
Dehede011: The subtleties of the engineering mind escaped Dalgliesh
AGplusone: There’s a great essay RAH wrote, called Ray Guns and Rocket Ships … dealing with it.
TreetopAngelRN2: But, that was a good thing…made it more real. If the science isn’t real or plausible, it becomes fantasy.
AGplusone: I.e., you don’t have flaming meteors in space.
Dehede011: Yes, and as soon as I personally recognised the distinction I became more of a RAH reader and less of a Bradbury
AGplusone: That was the same reaction I had. After I read Illustrated Man I stopped enjoying Bradbury as much. It just seemed sort of silly.
Musiquelle26: I read Heinlein and the hard sci-fi writers with equal interest as to those who wrote sci-fantasy
aggirlj: Fantasy is more escapism to me than any sci-fi well written detailed well.
Musiquelle26: But then, I was an escapist
Musiquelle26: I dreamed of working in space so Heinlein hooked me quickly
Dehede011: My preference was personal as I was a teener on my way to being an engineer
Musiquelle26: Red Planet showed a feasible colony situation away from Earth
AGplusone: At twelve I was perfectly capable of inventing my own fantasies to a more than sufficiency.
AGplusone: That’s what I loved about it! It seemed soooo possible.
TreetopAngelRN2: I am an escapist, also…but I like a good hard SF story, even if I don’t understand the physics.
DavidWrightSr: I made up some of my fantasies based on titles of Heinlein books that I hadn’t yet read. 🙂
Dehede011: There is a saying that all analogies break down if pushed hard enough
Dehede011: Paradoxically I enjoyed Heinlein when I learned to push his analogies also.
AGplusone: I found myself today reading the early explanation of how they made the two hemisphere domes for each structure … then asking myself, why that way? why not the inner one first? then I went d’oh!
Dehede011: ie, the artificial language in Gulf
AGplusone: You can’t blow the outer one around the inner one.
TreetopAngelRN2: I would sit and read Heinlein in a room filled with unicorns…
aggirlj: The travels of the mind in books is what I want.
Musiquelle26: That’s why movies from books really don’t work for me if I read the book first
TreetopAngelRN2: I liked the way he walked us through how the domes were made, made it seem we could do it ourselves when the time came.
Dehede011: I guess the major attraction of RAH was his way of holding up a vision of sanity
Musiquelle26: my mind’s eye gets in the way…and my mind’s ear
AGplusone: I found Heinlein a very practical writer when I read him as a juvenile. Everything he wrote seemed sensible and possible.
TreetopAngelRN2: still seems that way
AGplusone: And Red Planet was the easiest to absorb.
AGplusone: Not so much esoteric math, etc., and all that, that I hadn’t encountered, yet not dumbed down, either.
aggirlj: I loved the description of the Martians physically, wherever did he get that.
AGplusone: Which gets me back to James Marlowe again … he seemed the most akin to my age of any of them … his concern about his ‘pet’ Willis, for example.
Dehede011: A take off on The War of the Worlds
aggirlj: Thank you.
AGplusone: Another Wells influence?
Musiquelle26: I think I have a hard time seeing influences, having read Heinlein before a lot of classic authors
Dehede011: Yes, AG, you mean the martians?
AGplusone: Does anyone know, btw, of a website that has a good old time map of the “canals” etc., named by Schiperelli (sp?)
aggirlj: Not I.
AGplusone: If I were teaching with this book, I’d want a good map to use in class.
TreetopAngelRN2: I have the same problem, I started reading Heinlein well before I read other SF
AGplusone: To locate where and when …
TreetopAngelRN2: That would be handy
Dehede011: RAH and the classic authors came at me like BBs out of a shotgun
LadyS122 has entered the room.
Musiquelle26: Hey Helen
LadyS122: Hi Steph.
LadyS122: said I’d come back when the kids were asleep.
AGplusone: Yeah, we were lucky. Back then there only was the “Golden Age” writers, Ron. We just read them all …. all of ’em.
Dehede011: They weren’t so accessible physically that we could pick and chose
AGplusone: Then when we finished that section of the library, we started over again.
Musiquelle26: I crumb-plumbed the libraries, and usually only found antholgies, promptly forgetting who wrote what
Dehede011: What library?? LOL
TreetopAngelRN2: Dad has a large collection of all the pulps, I started a lot of reading there.
AGplusone: [e.g., Blish was a new writer . . . LOL]
Musiquelle26: agghh…Blish was always available in the libraries
Dehede011: I read Heinlein from publication of Rocketship G. But even he didn’t become generally available until 1974 for me
AGplusone: [and I wasn’t quite sure I liked him, either]
TreetopAngelRN2: If it said Heinlein, it was on the shelf at home, and I have continued that tradition..
AGplusone: Good tradition …
Dehede011: In 1974 I found a bookstore with all the Heinlein’s in new PB publication
Musiquelle26: I’ve been selective on buyin RAH….tend to only buy what I know I will re-read yearly
AGplusone: We’re about half way through. Suggest a ten minute break until 31 past the hour?
Musiquelle26: same as with most of my books
AGplusone: To water the cat, etc. …
AGplusone: Ron, you have the conn, sir.
Dehede011: You are going ashore Mr. Silver?
Dehede011: The log is so noted
AGplusone: Going to my stateroom to water my cat.
Dehede011: All good cats need to be watered
TreetopAngelRN2: he should have said, “arrgh, yes Ron, me lad”
Dehede011: Aye, but then what do you expect in this modern Navy Treetop
Dehede011: Sorry most of my Navy jokes take entirely too long
Musiquelle26: Most of mine are derogatory….ex-Army, ex AF brat
TreetopAngelRN2: I’ve heard lots of those…married a Navy man
AGplusone: When we come back, let’s talk about Headmaster Howe, huh?
Musiquelle26: though I did NAvy JROTC
Dehede011: Those are the best kind frequently
Smn Jester has entered the room.
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Simon!
aggirlj: Hi Simon.
Smn Jester: Hiya! Long time, no see.
AGplusone: ‘lo, simon, how’s merrie ol’ LTNC
Dehede011: Howdy, Simon
Smn Jester: Bah… Who’s merry?
AGplusone: we in our mid-session break, until 31 past the hour.
AGplusone: We’re all merry as soon as I splice the mainbrace.
TreetopAngelRN2: quick Simon needs a drink!
Dehede011: And Captain Silver stuck me with the dirty duty
aggirlj: And hoist the Pettard.
Smn Jester: Well, I just put the kiddlings to bed, so I have the rest of the evening to meself.
Dehede011: BTW is that long John Silver.
Smn Jester: Hoisted by Captain Picard?
aggirlj: Someone had to.
Smn Jester: Arr! Engage, matey!
Musiquelle26: My kids came back home…still up watching questionable movie
Dehede011: Splice the mainbrace is what I say
Smn Jester: I was half way through the movie Pi this after.
Musiquelle26: must go get caffeine to tend them
TreetopAngelRN2: the subject matter is questionable or you aren’t sure it’s a movie??
Smn Jester: Is it live or is it Memorex?
TreetopAngelRN2: Is that a good movie for someone stupid in math, Simon?
Musiquelle26: It’s Shrek
Smn Jester: Well, they really only mention some serious stuff a few times.
Musiquelle26: the adult jokes go over their heads..for now
AGplusone: Spliced and back. G & T. what kept the phrase from being “Dogs and Mad Englishmen out in the hot sun.”
TreetopAngelRN2: LOL, Steph!
Smn Jester: I was pleased when they talked about the Fibinachi sequence.
AGplusone: Figure it was Mad Dogs and Very Mellow Englishmen”
TreetopAngelRN2: that’s over my head, Simon
TreetopAngelRN2: The cat stole my lighter…
TreetopAngelRN2: and she won’t give it back…
AGplusone: prolly stole your cigars too
TreetopAngelRN2: prolly, she has everything stuffed iunder the kitchen counter
AGplusone: That’s a very interesting seminar on pain you’re conducting with Chuck for our benefit, Elizabeth.
AGplusone: Chuck and Howard
Musiquelle26: I should probably read the pain thread
TreetopAngelRN2: Is it? It all goes along with what I am studying this semester
Musiquelle26: Of course, no insurance now means back to OTC meds for my hips and back
aggirlj: Maybe a little massage therapy?
AGplusone: Hope something works … shall be go back to Headmaster Howe?
TreetopAngelRN2: I know with Howard and Chuck I can say everything in medspeak, but for everyone else it’s easier to use layman’s terms. Hence Howard catching me using not quite correct terms.
AGplusone: Well, the medspeak isn’t too deep yet.
TreetopAngelRN2: I’m trying to keep it that way
TreetopAngelRN2: Headmaster Howe, a piece of work that one is!
AGplusone: What purpose does Headmaster Howe fulfill … beside the obvious villain?
TreetopAngelRN2: He is the visible presence of the company
AGplusone: Certainly not the dear Arnold of Tom Brown’s School Days, is he?
aggirlj: What a presence.
Dehede011: Back, old sailor that I am I went to brew a fresh pot of good Columbian Coffee
Musiquelle26: drinking a gourmet blend by some company
LadyS122: gotta go… arggggh…
Musiquelle26: c’ya Helen
Dehede011: No, Jewel’s Best LOL
aggirlj: Bye Helen.
TreetopAngelRN2: Bye, Helen
Dehede011: Bye Helen
LadyS122 has left the room.
AGplusone: He’s the boys’ equivalent of every Company official (or Authority “fink” from Moon Is A Harsh Mistress), isn’t he?
Musiquelle26: Fink is a better description in my book
TreetopAngelRN2: Yes, exactly!
Dehede011: I’d say so
Dehede011: Loyalty pursued for purposes of self advancement
AGplusone: Brings “he has quartered troops amongst us” right down to the little red school house didn’t he?
TreetopAngelRN2: The boys needed someway to discover the plot and Howe was the best way for it to happen.
AGplusone: True …
TreetopAngelRN2: Otherwise Willis would have to have gotten into company headquarters somehow.
AGplusone: but the boys’ eyes’ view of oppression is important for juveniles, isn’t it? all that stuff MacRae prattles on and on about doesn’t make a lot of impact on Jim and Frank at first does it?
TreetopAngelRN2: definitely, they had to see how it impacted their lives, made it personal
AGplusone: Juveniles are accustomed to accept things as they are: second class citizens, right?
aggirlj: I don’t think so, they don’t have the power true, but never second class.
AGplusone: So, if there hadn’t been a good headmaster before Howe, then they (except maybe Smitty) wouldn’t have noticed much, would they?
TreetopAngelRN2: The difference between headmasters makes a big impact.
AGplusone: If there hadn’t been dear Dean Arnold, that epitome of virtue, then sturdy, plucky little Tom Brown would have suffered Flashman in silence, just as things always were in the English Public School (or so we are led to believe).
AGplusone: Referring to the classic Schoolboy book, Tom Brown’s School Days by Thomas Hughes, written mid 1800s.
TreetopAngelRN2: “That’s the way things are always done here.” syndrome.
TreetopAngelRN2: until there is a shakeup, of course.
AGplusone: Exactly: there was no history before I was born … which is what most juveniles, myself included, believe, until they learn different.
Smn Jester: Different?
Dehede011: Yep, that was the comment I always heard as an Industrial Engineer, “That’s the way things are always done here”
TreetopAngelRN2: some people never get over that
AGplusone: “These are the good old days!”
Musiquelle26: “No history…heck, the world did not exist before me”
Dehede011: My answer was always the same, then you have always done it wrong and I was hired to change it
Smn Jester: Ah, the good old days. The Greeks were perfect and everything is based on them. bah…
TreetopAngelRN2: life WAS much simpler before reality checked in.
Smn Jester: One of the books I’m currently rereading is The Fountainhead.
AGplusone: Well, if it wasn’t invented here . . .
Dehede011: There is a serious point being missed here
TreetopAngelRN2: what, Ron?
Smn Jester: ANd I still like to check out of reality on occasion.
AGplusone: I never went once more onto that breach, Simon … what point, Ron?
Dehede011: The hardest work of all is to personally change our ways
Dehede011: The old ways are always easier
Smn Jester: You’ve got that right.
Musiquelle26: familiarity often is
Smn Jester: My bachelor days were much easier than my current married life.
AGplusone: Jim doesn’t think much about the Project. He wouldn’t feel dressed right if he went outside without his mask, etc.
TreetopAngelRN2: that’s true, it usually takes an earth shaking experience to make a person change
Dehede011: So as many times as I demanded people change underneath I had an understanding
AGplusone: But mom remembers the stream and the wind ….
AGplusone: Somebody who read them all: is the Project described in Red Planet what Kim Stanley Robinson actually detailed in his Red-White-Sky Blue Pink Mars series?
Musiquelle26: Even knowing there is need to change, or else fail, it is hard to do it
Dehede011: brb that coffee is brewed and demanding to be cupped
Smn Jester: Cupped? Heh…
TreetopAngelRN2: Haven’t read recently, would have to go look back on it. Too many good books…
AGplusone: Putting a conversion station every fifty square miles to turn the iron oxide into an atmosphere …
Dehede011: And cupped it has been.
Dehede011: Next it will be swigged.
AGplusone: Instead of 2Fe + 3O = Fe2O3, then lots of energy going the other way?
TreetopAngelRN2: KS Robinson must be boxed, I am not finding them quickly…
Smn Jester: Nuke the ice caps. Water vapor increases the heat retention and a greehouse starts.
Dehede011: BTW, today the news was that signs of open water had been found on Mars
AGplusone: I never finished the series Elizabeth, so I’m wondering if Robinson did it the same way. And for that matter, whether it’s theoretically possible.
AGplusone: Heinlein doesn’t posit open water. He says reverse the rust into an O2 atmosphere of sufficient pressure.
Smn Jester: Theory? By theory, the bumblebee can’t fly…
TreetopAngelRN2: I haven’t finished it either.
AGplusone: Hell of a lot of energy required
Smn Jester: Start dropping comets ontot he planet. Lots of water there.
Smn Jester: And energy too.
Dehede011: Did anyone else see the pictures of open water on Mars that were in the news today
TreetopAngelRN2: what News??? I’ve been reading all day!
Smn Jester: I’d like a link for that if anyone ahs one.
AGplusone: And maybe we need a few dirty explosions so we have green tendrils like everyone else: ooops, that’s when Panshin went balastic ….
aggirlj: I’d like it too.
Dehede011: Yes, if I can find it. It was in Space News on line
Smn Jester: Alexi? Balstic?
AGplusone: a slight possibility, simon
Smn Jester: No shoe pounding invovled, was there?
AGplusone: What did they finally find when they landed Rover. Is there much Fe2O3?
AGplusone: I.e., what makes Mars red?
Dehede011: Dark Streaks on Mars Suggest Running Water Still Present
Smn Jester: New export from North Korea, the Alexi ballistic missle.
TreetopAngelRN2: When I read about turning the iron rust into atmoshpere, I bowed quietly to Heinlein’s superior knowledge of chemistry
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
TreetopAngelRN2: That was a quick dinner
AGplusone: New improved version of the Scud for Yemeni Homeland Defense Ministry.
Heinleinsmof: A little less than an hour — nobody else at my table.
Heinleinsmof: I read the start of Fer de Lance
Copycat669: Hey! I’m back…
aggirlj: Glad to see you.
TreetopAngelRN2: Thanks, Ron…bookmarked for later
Dehede011: You are welcome
Copycat669: Holy cats…news of mars…
Copycat669: I’m not sure I want to know.
TreetopAngelRN2: Fer de Lance???
AGplusone: Glad to see both of you back.
Copycat669: if we find out what Mars truly is comprised of, then the world
Heinlein painted won’t be my Mars anymore.
AGplusone: Great site, Ron.
Dehede011: I am sticking with Fermi and what he asked. LOL
Heinleinsmof: Rex Stout – 1934.
Heinleinsmof: The first Nero Wolfe book.
AGplusone: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/streaks_mars_0212 11.html
TreetopAngelRN2: so noted, thanks
Copycat669: I’m jsut curious….what does your handle mean, Heinleinsmof?
Dehede011: AG that was from Space News if you book mark that
ScottW469 has entered the room.
aggirlj: David, can you copy the sit . . . just asking for that, thanks.
ScottW469: good evening
Smn Jester: Heinleins world will always exist. Just a few degrees over.
AGplusone: I did bookmark it, Ron. Thank you.
TreetopAngelRN2: I agree Simon
Heinleinsmof: Smof stands for “Secret Master of Fandom.” I was off my feed the day I had to choose a new handle.
Smn Jester: I like my handle…
AGplusone: Okay, Secret Master. Do I get to be Perfect Master of Fandom?
Dehede011: Mine is simple. My last name is Harrison. Dehede was our name before we started using Harrison
AGplusone: Actually Pluperfect Master is more fun.
Heinleinsmof: Just so, Grasshoppa
Copycat669: Ah. I used to sell copiers for a living. Ain’t that quaint?
Dehede011: Yes, Kettlebelly
Dehede011: Sorry I read that as Copters
AGplusone: and my last name is Silver (Ag, valence +1)
aggirlj: Oh my.
TreetopAngelRN2: well…I am NOT an angel
Copycat669: and unfortunately, people think I”m a perv…but I was born in June of 69. 🙂
TreetopAngelRN2: I understood enough chemistry to get your handle, David!
AGplusone: Yeah, but we know the joke Elizabeth.
Musiquelle26: Mine is a feminized version of one of my characters
Copycat669: I understand chemistry, but I didn’t get the joke til you made it. That’s awesome, Mr. Silver.
Dehede011: That is Captain Silver, please.
Musiquelle26: As Filly, my prior name, was based off one of my own characters
Smn Jester: As for me, I look big dumb and stupid. BUt the tiny man who lives in my head and runs me is very intelligent, has a very punny sense of humor and annos authority.
Musiquelle26: egotistical I guess
aggirlj: Mine is “Silver girl” from Bridge Over Troubled Water.
AGplusone: I liked Merfilly, Stephanie!
Smn Jester: Annoys, even…
TreetopAngelRN2: I had ‘Silver Girl’ but not the reference
ScottW469 has left the room.
aggirlj: Fly away.
Musiquelle26: Silver Girl is great
AGplusone: “See how it shines!”
AGplusone: “The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
AGplusone: Anyway, back to Mr. Howe ….
aggirlj: Okay. Ready.
AGplusone: what else doth he do in the story, anyone?
aggirlj: I’ll be better by Saturday.
Smn Jester: Howe?
AGplusone: [ … besides ending up 90 degrees away from everything.]
TreetopAngelRN2: friggin mind reader!!
AGplusone: Headmaster at the school Jim Marlowe gets sent to, the one who steals and wants to sell Willis to the London Zoo.
Smn Jester: Well, if Mike twisted him, I’m sure he was annoying.
AGplusone: Gekko prolly showed Mike how to do it.
aggirlj: Gekko good guy.
Heinleinsmof: This had to have been some time after SIASL, doesn’t it? I can’t quite make the two fit together.
Copycat669 has left the room.
GMC19924 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, GMC, ltnc
aggirlj: Hi GMC
GMC19924: hi…better late than never
AGplusone: You probably can but you need a handsaw, er, bastard file, or somethin’
TreetopAngelRN2: Howe…I am missing your clue David
Heinleinsmof: SIASL ends a few years after the permanent colony left by the Federation — but this Mars is run by a company and still doesn’t have any significant contact with the Martians.
AGplusone: Howe is the villain, and the demonstration of oppression to the boys, and what else?
AGplusone: But there’s nothin’ says the Federation didn’t charter a company to develop Mars, that maybe survived past the Federation …
Heinleinsmof: Nothing about Howe is coming to mind.
Heinleinsmof: In the World as Myth books, Heinlein makes a big point of SIASL taking place in our timeline.
Dehede011: Who led the physical attack upon the colonists to enforce company directives
AGplusone: Isn’t Howe “everyman” … the get rich quick …
AGplusone: the parasite
AGplusone: everything that makes colonies fail
Heinleinsmof: Typical British colonial type from the Cecil Rhodes era?
TreetopAngelRN2: Ah, yes!!! Now that you point it out!
TreetopAngelRN2: He was only there to make a buck and he didn’t care how he made it.
AGplusone: Mrs. Pottle on a grander scale
TreetopAngelRN2: Not a true colonist, he had no intention of staying on Mars.
Musiquelle26: Must toddle off, mes amis.
Dehede011: Get it and go home
Musiquelle26: Bon Soir
aggirlj: By Stephanie.
TreetopAngelRN2: Night, Steph!
Musiquelle26 has left the room.
Dehede011: Bon Soir, Yall
TreetopAngelRN2: Where does that leave the head company man? His name escapes me…
AGplusone: So, like the cadet who ‘knows everything’ in Space Cadet, Howe is a “cull” and has to be sent 90 degrees away from everything if we are to go to the stars … is that the lesson of Red Planet?
Heinleinsmof: Certainly he’s parasitic.
TreetopAngelRN2: I think you are right. That is the type we don’t need in any frontier.
AGplusone: The “resident” agent … trying to recall his name … but he’s the one who affects the adults … Howe is his juvenile counterpart; and, funny thing, thinks and acts just like a juvenile, doesn’t he?
TreetopAngelRN2: he is terribly petty.
Dehede011: But wasn’t RAH’s basic message that the type never survived on the frontier
AGplusone: Makes “earth rules” because that’s the way it’s done on earth. Yes, Beecher.
AGplusone: Just like the company makes “earth rules” regarding gun licensing, because that’s the way fat bureaucrats on earth do it, sez Doc MacRae.
Dehede011: They are always with us but always fail. The question is how many good people will fall with them
AGplusone: I love the way Heinlein writes parallels …
Heinleinsmof: I think RAH always has one eye on Darwin, and part of what he is saying is these rigid types are anti-evolutionary forces.
Smn Jester: Evolution is it’s own cure.
AGplusone: What did you call those things in your essay on Pinero, Bill? “Beats”?
Heinleinsmof: Yeah. The Martian colonists are evolutionarily adapted for their lifestyle
Heinleinsmof: “Beats” isn’t ringing any bells — I sometimes talk about story beats.
Heinleinsmof: phases in a progression. Is that what you meant?
AGplusone: Like taking a theme that the strings just did, and having the woodwinds repeat it.
AGplusone: strings = adult rules; woodwinds = juvenile rules at the school
Smn Jester: A round?
Heinleinsmof: That would be more like “resonances” or “harmonies.”
AGplusone: okay, I like resonances
aggirlj: Parts of a play.
Smn Jester: I’m feeling sympathetic…
Dehede011: In my poetry I call that an “echo.”
Smn Jester: Vibrating and all…
Heinleinsmof: It’s regarded as part of development in music composition.
AGplusone: But it’s a conscious structure to the story.
Dehede011: Sometimes I use “reflection” also
AGplusone: And Heinlein does it deliberately.
Heinleinsmof: Yes. Heinlein very very very often did multiple hits on the same idea.
Heinleinsmof: Most often duple presentation — once we are told about it and then we experience it.
TreetopAngelRN2: I am finding that out!
AGplusone: repetition after repetition …
Smn Jester: Lack of creativity or just sticking with a good thing?
TreetopAngelRN2: teaching and re-teaching
Dehede011: He is a teacher
AGplusone: variety of expression … it subconsciously or consciously drives the point home again and again.
Heinleinsmof: no — there is a progression built into that way of working it — a statement that is unfolded in experience.
Smn Jester: When RAH started out, do you think he had any inkling of being a teacher?
TreetopAngelRN2: show me—tell me—make me—–“Tell me three times.”
Heinleinsmof: And in persuasive writing we are taught to tell ’em what you’re going to tell ’em, tell ’em, and then tell ’em what you told ’em.
Smn Jester: Or did he just tell a good yarn?
AGplusone: and wove the motif in several ways
Heinleinsmof: I think he had a definite intention to teach in the juveniles — he spoke of “propaganda purposes.”
aggirlj: He had a point of view and wanted to have others think about it.
AGplusone: An adult listens to Doc MacRae’s bitching … a juvenile experiences the effect when Howe imposes all the silly rules on the kids.
TreetopAngelRN2: I had no idea he was teaching me, but a lot of my thinking, ideals and beliefs are connected to what I learned from Heinlein
Dehede011: I think he was a man that had a viewpoint — to be honest he had to express his viewpoint
Smn Jester: I often wonder, if I gravitated to Heinlein because he refelcted my views of the world, or if my long association with him bent me to his views.
Heinleinsmof: Did we talk about Doc MacRae while I was gone?
AGplusone: You were twisted just as I was.
AGplusone: Not much, Bill.
Dehede011: I still remember reading RG and being steered by him to start charting my path to becoming an engineer
Heinleinsmof: OK. I think it’s something of both — we grow around the seed crystal, but it has to have been appealing to us in the first place.
Smn Jester: I wanted to be an architect after reading DIS…
Dehede011: Hey, may I throw out a question?
Heinleinsmof: How did you get architect out of Door Into Summer?
Smn Jester: Or we had the seed and he was the medium we used to grow…
Heinleinsmof: Equally possible.
TreetopAngelRN2: go ahead, Ron!
Smn Jester: The drafting machine Dan made.
Dehede011: He had a habit of dropping names as someone we might like to read
AGplusone: Willis, of course, was one of the most appealling creatures in any of Heinlein juveniles — which is why I recommend it. Just as Petronius the Arbiter is equally appealling.
Dehede011: Can anyone remember him mentioning Noam Chomsky??
DavidWrightSr: Who mentioned Chomsky??
Smn Jester: Chomsky? A form of radiation maybe?
TreetopAngelRN2: I don’t recall, Ron…
Heinleinsmof: Chomsky was a little esoteric in the 50’s — and he would only have reviled Chomsky in the 80’s
Dehede011: I am asking if RAH ever mentioned the name Noam Chomsky??
DavidWrightSr: No. I can speak definitely on that
OscagneTX has entered the room.
AGplusone: Welcome, Tex
TreetopAngelRN2: Hi Oscagne!
Dehede011: When did esoteric ever stop RAH? LOL
aggirlj: Hi Tex
Dehede011: Hi Tex
Heinleinsmof: I don’t think RAH would have had much sympathy with structural linguistics. He was an unreconstructed Korzybskian.
DavidWrightSr: Chomsky is a linguist and the founder of Transformational Grammar. Chomsky was not a structuralist. By any means.
Smn Jester: Korzybskian? So?
Dehede011: Yeah, read Schulman’s interview. It sticks out all over the man
Heinleinsmof: Sorry — you’re tright; transformationalist rather than structuralist.
DavidWrightSr: Of course even Chomsky’s TG has changed vastly over the last 30 years and doesn’t resemble his earlier work much at all.
Heinleinsmof: Intellectual movements of a bygone age.
Dehede011: I was curious, lately I stumbled into a nest of Chomskyites.
AGplusone: “Are We There Yet?” Can FX do Willis right? Understand they’re doing a nice Gollum in LOR II
Smn Jester: Did you flame them?
Smn Jester: Baby nuke?
Dehede011: Knee capped them.
Smn Jester: *G*
Heinleinsmof: There are about 8 degrees of Chomskians right now. Every time Chomsky makes an advance he leaves a nest of the old Chomskians behind.
TreetopAngelRN2: I think FX would do fine with Willis
DavidWrightSr: RAH definitely wouldn’t have gone along with Chomsky’s political views.
Smn Jester: I’m gonna have to look this guys works up.
Heinleinsmof: Which guy?
Smn Jester: Chomsky.
Heinleinsmof: Chomsky or Korzybsky?
Smn Jester: And the K guy…
Heinleinsmof: Ok. There are a couple of collections of essays and extracts of his work from the 1950’s
AGplusone: Don’t bother with Chomsky. I got tired of him in the 60s.
Heinleinsmof: It’s highly technical stuff — but easier than Korzybski.
Smn Jester: Not a matter of ‘bothering’, just a need to know.
AGplusone: Read a Cliff’s Notes.
Smn Jester: Yeah, Cliff notes…
Heinleinsmof: or a fall-off-a-cliff’s notes in Korzybski’s case.
aggirlj: I guess I gotta at least find out who these people are.
Smn Jester: Or Exostential Disestablimentarianism of Dummies?
Heinleinsmof: Actuqlly “Manhood of Humanity” is a fairly straightforward read — and that’s the book that introduces timebinding.
DavidWrightSr: When I was in grad school in Linguistics, the followers of Chomsky split the school right down the middle and caused all kinds of problems. I got out with my Master’s when I saw it coming and when into computers.
aggirlj: Simon, spelling bee.
Heinleinsmof: And of course, the Chomskians are all over natural language processing nowadays. You should look into alt.comp.nat-lang.
TreetopAngelRN2: must have gotten one of my rebuilt keyboards
Smn Jester: I am a hi skool gradiate.
Dehede011: I ain’t
aggirlj: 🙂 😀
Smn Jester: A PUBLIC school gradiate too!
Dehede011: I graduated two colleges but no high schools
AGplusone: English PUBLIC or ‘merican.
Smn Jester: America… *hangs head*
aggirlj: I’m at the University of Hard Knocks right now.
Heinleinsmof: Still — I think Chomsky is probably right about there being no such thing as semantics.
Heinleinsmof: I mean, as distinct from syntax and usage.
Smn Jester: I just signed up for U of M today. Finally going to finish one of my degrees. Maybe.
AGplusone: That would make one thing Chomsky’s right about … so far so good.
Smn Jester: Michigan…
Dehede011: Thank you
TreetopAngelRN2: drat, was hoping you meant Montana
Heinleinsmof: I think Denis Paradis is back in Michigan now, isn’t he?
Smn Jester: Yeah, as oppsed to the University of Moe. Right next to Curly COllege.
GMC19924: are there enough ppl in Montana to support a University? (ducks!)
AGplusone: maybe, haven’t heard from Mike Sheffield whether he returned any mail
Smn Jester: Enough cows maybe…
Smn Jester: *VEG*
TreetopAngelRN2: I hope so…I have a diploma from there!:-D
OscagneTX: u’s get their money from out-of-state students anyway.
Heinleinsmof: I don’t know about universities,but it seems every little town between Bozeman and Helena has its own college.
AGplusone: That’s because ‘college’ has replaced ‘cottage’ in industries.
TreetopAngelRN2: all affiliates of U of M or Montana Stae…mine comes from MSU
TreetopAngelRN2: U of M in Missoula and MSU in Bozeman
Heinleinsmof: I almost applied to the astronomy program at MSU in 1969
Smn Jester: Well folks, past bedtime for me. See you next Thursady.
Dehede011: I have went back to the local JC for some courses. I can’t believe the number of foreign students
Smn Jester: MSU? Sparty on!
aggirlj: Bye Simon, was fun.
Smn Jester has left the room.
TreetopAngelRN2: Night Simon!
Dehede011: nite Simon
AGplusone: yeah, me too
Heinleinsmof: It is getting to be that time, isn’t it?
AGplusone: Close on …
AGplusone: Anything else, questions about Red Planet?
TreetopAngelRN2: yeah, when I leave here I have to do LAUNDRY!
Heinleinsmof: Are we going to debate the question of whether Doc MacRae is Lazarus Long?
Dehede011: Sorry about that Treetop
AGplusone: And what shall we do after first of year?
Dehede011: Isn’t he Bill?
OscagneTX: Um… you mean similar in character, or the actual real guy?
AGplusone: We sorta slipped by that one talking about the cartoon.
TreetopAngelRN2: Doc McRae IS LL…you’ll have to talk fast tp unconvince me
Heinleinsmof: People raise the question because of the apparent discrepancy in his age.
AGplusone: Besides, I still think Smitty is Laz
GMC19924: is it even the same universe?
OscagneTX: Smitty is too young.
Heinleinsmof: Ok, here’s some fast talk: If SIASL is in our timeline, so is Red Planet — but Lazarus Long belongs to an alternate timeline.
AGplusone: plastic surgery
Heinleinsmof: You like apples?
AGplusone: Just like Mary Sperling
OscagneTX: What the hell would LL be doing in a frontier school instead of scamming someone?
AGplusone: Hiding out.
TreetopAngelRN2: What’s the next juvenile in
GMC19924: osc…hiding from the law
Dehede011: Waiting for the heat to blow over Oscagne
AGplusone: Getting ready to make his contacts (where better than in the one school) and start planning his hookshop
Heinleinsmof: I think Red Planet was 1950, but I can’t recall what’s 51 — Between Planets?
TreetopAngelRN2: LL in Gay Deceiver has managed amny things…why not our timeline??
AGplusone: 49, Between Planets is 50
Dehede011: Yeah AG, when they have an atmosphere the miners will come arunning
AGplusone: Yep, and Noisy Rhysling.
Heinleinsmof: Ok,so Between Planets is up next — that’s one of my favorites (I bet you’ve never heard that before)
Dehede011: I read BP in Blue Book in 51
AGplusone: Good, you wanna do leadoff?
Heinleinsmof: Has anybody read the Blue Book condensation
AGplusone: Not that I recall.
TreetopAngelRN2: nope, don’t think so
Dehede011: Yes, me
Heinleinsmof: Good — thanks for anticipating my question, Ron. What were the differences?
Dehede011: I was too young to notice but I was on the edge of my chair all the way
Heinleinsmof: I think I have only one of the two installments it appeared in but I haven’t read it yet.
Dehede011: Especially over those illustrations of the women
Heinleinsmof: Those condensations are sometimes painful to read.
TreetopAngelRN2: I have a copy of “Between Planets” if you need one…go to the book exchange!
AGplusone: Okay … suggest we go three weeks so we miss Xmas and New Years for next chat.
GMC19924: condensed books..and I thought profanity was frowned on here
TreetopAngelRN2: fine with me!
Heinleinsmof: No wonder he was so irritated with the work he had to put into them.
AGplusone: Wednesday is Jan 1. Thursday is Jan 2
aggirlj: Me too.
AGplusone: Is that too soon? Bowl games may be on.
Dehede011: Sounds good AG
Heinleinsmof: So you’re talking about Jan 9?
AGplusone: I’d think Jan 9 would be better.
TreetopAngelRN2: that’s four weeks
AGplusone: But we could lead off now, because it’s going to be slow over holidays for posts.
Heinleinsmof: BTW, copies of Between Planets show up in several formats on Ebay very frequently.
AGplusone: Yeah, four.
Heinleinsmof: It’s also one of the not terribly expensive ones. There’s even a trade paperback version from the 1950’s
AGplusone: Think it’s still in print, too.
TreetopAngelRN2: I want my footstool back…pick my copy from the Book Exchange!
AGplusone: Saw copy at local Urban Guerrilla bookstore
Heinleinsmof: Has Baen picked that one up yet? I think that’s one Scribners held onto for a long time so it didn’t have an early paperback version.
aggirlj: I’ll take it.
AGplusone: Dunno. I have a paperback. Lemme check.
Heinleinsmof: I think Ace was the first to get it in paperback in the late 1960’s or early 1970’s
TreetopAngelRN2: Mine is an Ace, doesn’t have a print date, just the copyright
DavidWrightSr: Same here
GMC19924: our local small town library still has an old hardcover..cant remember..RSG or..RP….it has the orbital equations inside the covers…i want to steal it
Heinleinsmof: You can get hardbacks for not very much money if you’re willing to settle for library binding (i.e., after 1961) or an ex-library copy.
Heinleinsmof: Ex library copies often auction for about $25
Dehede011: Guys and gals I have to move on. I’ll see you Jan 09 unless you post a change in date.
AGplusone: Paper I have is a Ballentine Del Rey
Dehede011 has left the room.
Heinleinsmof: “Library Binding” means the cover is printed on the heavy stock rather than on the dust jacket.
TreetopAngelRN2: I have a paper DelRey, also
TreetopAngelRN2: Jane I will e-mail you
AGplusone: Mine is Ballantine fifth printing Dec 81
aggirlj: See Ya later.
aggirlj: I’m off too. Have to type a payroll AND do laundry.
Heinleinsmof: That sounds about right — Ballantine got the juveniles after Ace
TreetopAngelRN2: fourth printing ’78
AGplusone: Got log, David?
DavidWrightSr: Got it
TreetopAngelRN2: Good night everyone!
AGplusone: And do you want to do leadoff, Bill?
aggirlj: Bye and see you Saturday.
TreetopAngelRN2: only if I am awake!
AGplusone: bye, Jane
aggirlj: I know I’ll finish the book by then.
Heinleinsmof: I just reminded Ron to do a leadoff post.
aggirlj has left the room.
AGplusone: Ron’s gonna do it? Fine with me.
TreetopAngelRN2 has left the room.
Heinleinsmof: I thought you had asked him to do it and he didn’t reply.
GMC19924: take care..see ya again
GMC19924 has left the room.
AGplusone: Actually I was asking you, but Ron can (and previously has) do it fine.
Heinleinsmof: OK — I didn’t catch that was intended for me. No huhu.
AGplusone: Almost dinner time for me … night, all.
Heinleinsmof: Have fun.
Heinleinsmof: See y’all later.
Heinleinsmof has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Nite all
OscagneTX has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 10:58 P.M. EST
DavidWrightSr: Selfish. You still with us?
AGplusone: Good night, Dave.
DavidWrightSr: Good night
Final End of Discussion Log