Heinlein Readers Discussion Group
Saturday 06/05/2004 5:00 P.M. EDT
Warm Body Democracy in Heinlein
Here Begins the Discussion
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OscagneTX has entered the room.
Kim Kinnison999 has entered the room.
Kim Kinnison999: hi Osca
OscagneTX: It’s fairly dead yet.
Kim Kinnison999: yep. so i see
OscagneTX: We may be it.
starfall2 has entered the room.
Aurorax13 has entered the room.
Dehede011 has entered the room.
WJaKe has entered the room.
Kultsi KN has entered the room.
Kultsi KN: Hi all!
Aurorax13: this is again horrible timing I have to clean house
OscagneTX: Were you all just waiting for invite?
Dehede011: Hi Y’all, how is the chat going.
Aurorax13: I didn’t even know
starfall2: i didn’t know either
Kim Kinnison999: lol..for a wonder i actually got the notification this time BEFORE the chat
starfall2: kultsi just told me
Aurorax13: whatever shall I do
starfall2: i didn’t even see the invitation… i accidentally clicked on it
OscagneTX: I just found out Reagan is dead.
Dehede011: I knew but got tied up waiting for a beautiful woman. LOL
Kim Kinnison999: ronny?
Aurorax13: well what a tragedy
Dehede011: Yes, it is the headline on Fox News
Aurorax13: of course
OscagneTX: It was probably a release for him.
Aurorax13: that is the most imortant thing happening today
OscagneTX: bitter much?
Aurorax13: Look I was very small when he was elected to office and my mom and stepfather are ardent liberals
Dehede011: I don’t know. As I heard about his crisis, I realized that if he survived this he would just have to do it again.
Aurorax13: I grew up w/doonesbury and bloom county
Kim Kinnison999: well..if you like trading liberty for selected rights, concentrating the wealth of the US into fewer and fewer hands, cheer for the main man who started it off
OscagneTX: Me too. His is the first election I can remember. But I think he did a pretty good job.
Dehede011: I live between a group of refugees from the old Soviet Union. What I heard is probably very different
Aurorax13: a good job of what exactly
Kultsi KN: Well, that will happen just once to all of us… At least he still lives on the film.
OscagneTX: Does anyone have a comment or question about the topic? “Warm-body democracy in Heinlein”
Dehede011: Kim if you read John Taylor Gatto that process was under controol in about 1890
OscagneTX: It looks like (from Thursdays chat) I didn’t define the topic very well. Does anyone need a clarification?
Kim Kinnison999: perhaps dehede..but he helped legitimize it and accellerateit
Kultsi KN: Yes, please
OscagneTX: The idea is, Heinlein’s non-exclusive democracies (i.e. non SST) don’t do very well on average.
OscagneTX: My examples were Moon and Cat, and the California of Friday.
Aurorax13: actually I don’t think that all problems can be laid at the feet of a man that was best known for taking naps and bad memory (while in office I mean not to slander him as a victem of senility and dementia)
OscagneTX: Counter-examples pointed out Thursday were Tunnel in the Sky,
OscagneTX: And something I can’t remember off hand.
Dehede011: I did a study once to see the progress of soacialization in the US. Sufficient data existed to Truman.
starfall2: well, it’s time for me to go
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Aurorax13: I don’t know the democracy in California in Friday was pretty effective in keeping the masses happy
Dehede011: Every President since Truman has extended socialism in the US. I can’t comment on Truman as insufficient data was available on Roosevelt.
OscagneTX: Happy? maybe.
Aurorax13: and define doing well
OscagneTX: For a while… but they were on the fast-track “bread and circuses” train, weren’t they?
Kultsi KN: How does Friday CA demockery differ from today’s RL one?
Aurorax13: we still don’t have a warm body democracy
Kultsi KN: 😛
Kim Kinnison999: the friday democracy elected clowns..er..no..wait….
OscagneTX: K: mostly that equality became almost religious (unisex bathrooms and showers) and anybody with a petition could get a law passed.
OscagneTX: I don’t even think there was an age exclusion to the franchise.
Aurorax13: tech. we have a representative democracy…….. ie how we ended up w/W instead of Gore
Aurorax13: nope no age or life limitations
Aurorax13: corpsicles still had the vote
Kim Kinnison999: which leads to another question..how many besides me think the idea of moving to computerized voting from a system that leaves paper records is a REALLY REALLY BAD idea?
Kultsi KN: Me, for one.
OscagneTX: Oh, yeah.
OscagneTX: That’d be a disaster.
Aurorax13: i agree but that is because I dislike anything that is so easily tampered with
Kim Kinnison999: well..exactly
OscagneTX: See Moon’s elections for that outcome.
Aurorax13: send out a good virus and end up electing opus to office
Aurorax13: (though that might be a drastic improvement over doofus)
Kim Kinnison999: i dont fear a virus..i fear the people in power
Dehede011: As well you should
OscagneTX: and the developers.
Aurorax13: I always fear the people in office
Aurorax13: actually I’ll restate that
OscagneTX: Did y’all see the news item about the developers putting back-doors in the latest voting machines.
Aurorax13: not so much the people in office as the people in power
Kim Kinnison999: I live in NY State..we still use the old lever machines..you cannot double vote, and it leaves a record on paper. I think they should be mandatory everywhere
Aurorax13: ok I really need to go on w/some cleaning stuff and I’ll pop back time to time
Aurorax13: I’m going to leave the chat up
Dehede011: Good having you here.
Kultsi KN: Our system does not use anything but pencil and paper.
Kultsi KN: No lists.
OscagneTX: Our ballots are very complicated. We can have a hundred different decisions on a ballot.
OscagneTX: How about you, Kultsi?
Kultsi KN: One.
OscagneTX: So you have all your different elections on different days… or is it straight party vote… or how?
Kultsi KN: In about a week we are going to elect our representatives to the EU.
Dehede011: Ours is very modern, in the year 2000 we had clinging chads just like Miami.
Kultsi KN: We ain’t got many things to elect: local gov, state parliament, president, EU representative
Kultsi KN: The parties are a multitude
OscagneTX: That’s pretty similar to us, as far as catgories go.
Kim Kinnison999: hm..what country kultsi?
Kultsi KN: Finland
OscagneTX: We just have … a dozen city councilmen, some state senators, some state reps, county positions, judges, national reps and senators, pres, etc.
Kultsi KN: the local govt is just the guys to decide on other aspects in the county.
OscagneTX: Well… I think the topic is just about flogged to death. It wasn’t a very good topic anyway…
OscagneTX: I am asking for suggestions for future topics.
OscagneTX: I’d like to go back to a chat every two weeks.
Kultsi KN: and we do not change judges at every change of wind; we think that is a _bad_ thing.
Dehede011: Same here
Kim Kinnison999: i don’t know as we do either kultsi..the incumbent has a way of lingering despite performance
Kim Kinnison999: in fact..we don’t really hold our elected officials responsible for actions or performance anymore unless the media lynches them
Dehede011: It seems like electing judges is terrible and appointing them is worse
OscagneTX: Pix has suggested Humor in Stranger, and bleyddyn has suggested private venture space travel.
Dehede011: Which raises a question
OscagneTX: Texas elects almost all judges, up to and including the state Supreme Court.
Kim Kinnison999: private venture space travel..never happen..last thing in the world governments want
OscagneTX: It seems to work ok. We keep tight control on the bench.
Dehede011: Does anyone have any idea Rutan is to flying his spaceship
Dehede011: how close Rutan
Kim Kinnison999: has NASA certified it yet?
OscagneTX: It’s coming up soon.
Dehede011: I believe so
OscagneTX: I don’t think NASA has anything to do with it, do they? I know they’ve been cleared by FAA.
Kim Kinnison999: NASA has to certify any manned out of atmosphere craft, yes
Dehede011: Wasn’t it NASA that cleared him.
OscagneTX: i know they’ve been having trouble with FAA, but finally got clear of them.
Dehede011: Or was that to an intermediate altitude
Kim Kinnison999: i don’t pay much attention because i’m morally certain it’ll never be allowed to become a reality beyond maybe a test or two
OscagneTX: So does anyone have any suggestions for chat topics?
Dehede011: If I take a conspiratoral view I still can’t think of a reason to block it.
Kultsi KN: OTOH, the govt-run space program does not seem to be going anywhere…
Kim Kinnison999: dehede..maybe they just don’t want anybody on the top of the hill wher they could roll rocks down on them
Dehede011: Yes, and a private program frees all that tax money to buy votes
Kultsi KN: the space travel one might be good.
Kim Kinnison999: we don’t have a space program..we have a LEO dog and pony show
WJaKe: sorry, you guys caught me while i was on the phone, I’ve been reviewing the chat
Dehede011: Kim, whether state or private the guy on top of the hill will be a government guy
WJaKe: OscagneTX, you can’t cite Moon as a bad example of computerized voting
WJaKe: unless you know of a self-aweare computer that will be doing the counting!
WJaKe: Rutan flies on June 21, plan is to head for 62 miles
OscagneTX: You don’t have to be a self-aware computer, all you have to be is the guy who writes the code.
Dehede011: Thank you WJ
WJaKe: then Moon is still a poor example, circumstances are not the same at all
WJaKe: you’d have to be writing the code for enough precincts to sway the election
WJaKe: unless you’re only worried about local races
OscagneTX: No, you’d only have to write the code for the vote-counting software.
Kultsi KN: right.
WJaKe: right. and we all aren’t using the same system
OscagneTX: Kultsi would know more about the details and capabilities there, then I.
OscagneTX: We’d have to be on a standardized system if we are going to have a national election.
Dehede011: Isn’t it 50 miles that qualifies a pilot for astronaut wings. If so, Rutan will qualify
WJaKe: me too. and don’t get me wrong, i’m agin the idea at our current level of tech
WJaKe: needs 100 klicks for x-prize
Kultsi KN: If there are not stiff checks at every step, the results could be skewed at just few places and nobody would be the wiser.
OscagneTX: 100 K with two (three?) riders and a 2-week turnaround.
Dehede011: So roughly 62 miles wins the roses.
WJaKe: International body (IAU?) also says 100 klicks
WJaKe: also needs to do it again within 3 weeks
Kim Kinnison999: 62.5 miles..100 K
WJaKe: for x-prize
Kim Kinnison999: http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/rutan_scaled_ 0304187.html
Dehede011: Great day in the morning. But we still can’t do Single Stage to Orbit.
WJaKe: hmmm, maybe Heinlein was wrong?
OscagneTX: There’s a topic someone suggested Thu: things Heinlein missed.
WJaKe: We’ve been discussing this a bit lately, maybe air-launched is the way to go.
Kim Kinnison999: lol..me ‘missed’ a lot..mainly because technology was never an important factor in his stories
Kim Kinnison999: er..me = he
WJaKe: Some of my friends had some interesting stats to consider, that even heavy lift could be accomplished through air launch
OscagneTX: I’d still like to see a skyhook.
Dehede011: I see the world as having a new Renaissance getting underway
Dehede011: All of that will be coming down the pike in due course
Kim Kinnison999: hope you’re right dehede..because the future of Soylent Green looks more likely to me 🙁
WJaKe: please, point me to the signs…
Dehede011: Is that for me WJ?
Dehede011: Barnett see a one world government with all nations in a trading relationship and zero heavy wars
WJaKe: yes, dehede011
Dehede011: And number see a massive improvement in health and extension of life
Kim Kinnison999: if you can pay for it
Dehede011: I see Rutan etal as building a platform to truly launch the space age.
WJaKe: one world govt? which world?
Dehede011: Herrnsteing and Murray see the brightest 5-10 % of the population comming into community
Kultsi KN: I agree with WJ
Dehede011: This one but without the US particularly dominate
WJaKe: how can there be a world govt. without the US being dominant?
Dehede011: Any number have noticed religion is getting totally reformulated
Kultsi KN: Yes — for the worse
OscagneTX: Guys, I have to bail… but I’m going to leave the log running. Chat all you’d like. If I happen to fall off, maikoshT is also running a log.
Dehede011: WJ simply by the sheer mass outweighing us, by courts and associations settling disputes and by the US not wanting the job.
OscagneTX: Have a good evening, all.
Kim Kinnison999: good evening to you osca
Dehede011: How can you know that Kultsi, most of the process is off the page so far
Kultsi KN: Night!
Dehede011: Education looks as if it will be stood on its head.
Dehede011: Most of this stuff sounds wild eyed simply because it is happening quietly
Kultsi KN: Education must improve drastically, almost everywhere
WJaKe: by whom? and in what way will education be stood on it’s head?
Dehede011: Right now, in the US, I would bet on homeschooling changing it.
Dehede011: Either by replacing the present system or forcing a reform
WJaKe: Good point. I think home schooling will have a significant impact on lower education
Kim Kinnison999: heh..the move is on against homeschooling..in this state the homeschooled have to take a state GED to attend a state college..and we all know what a stigma a GED is
Kultsi KN: how many can do that, and if they can’t, can afford home schooling?
Dehede011: Kim, they say they are just by passing that requirement. If Harvard will accept me the state has a diminished impact
WJaKe: But I know enough people, even in my own small circle, that are home schooling or considering it. (depending on age of kids)
Dehede011: I started paying attention to HS when I realized every teacher I had talked to officially or privately had told I had to accept that responsibility…
Dehede011: if I wanted my children educated
Dehede011: Guys, I was born in 1934. This isn’t nearly the world I was born into nor is it the world that I got married in.
WJaKe: hmmm, you have seen radical change in your life, I will give you that
Kim Kinnison999: hell..i was born in 52 and i can agree with that dehe
Dehede011: More than once the latest starting circa 1980
Reilloc has entered the room.
Dehede011: These little silicon wonders we are communicating through
Kim Kinnison999: It’s the political changes that bother me the most..I was SURE the US had longer to go as a democratic republic composed of the ENTIRE population
Dehede011: But the biggest change I see is my own understanding of the political process.
Kultsi KN: Yes, they’ve come a long way since 1980 — that was when I installed the first computer controlled airport light control system in Singapore.
Dehede011: Kim, seriously try John Taylor Gatto’s UNDERGROUND HISTORY OF EDUCATION or approximately
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Dehede011: It is available online for free.
Dehede011: That man is turning education and to a lessor extent politics on its head.
Kim Kinnison999: btw..not to change the subject..is anybody else finding David Webers books as satisfying as me? I like his philosophy..good Heinlein ethics
Dehede011: David Drake. I have to tell you I have a major problem straightening out the storage of my books.
Dehede011: In his first or 2nd volume of Ensign O’Leary (?) he showed me how to do it.
Kultsi KN: Kim, I haven’t read any, I think.
Kim Kinnison999: i’m .. spotty on Drake..I like the O’leary books and some other stuff..others i just don’t
Kim Kinnison999: John Ringo is showing promise..but he needs a little more polish
Dehede011: Take this little silicon marvel, set up a spread sheet. Label and index the books. Put down their location. Etc.
Kim Kinnison999: oh hell..i did that 20 years ago with my Trash 80
Kim Kinnison999: except i wrote a basic program to do it
Dehede011: Well, what can I say, you are smarter than me. LOL
Kim Kinnison999: very unlikely dehe..let’s say..closer to the change
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DenvToday: Howdy all!
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Kim Kinnison999: hi denv
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Dehede011: Howdy, yes one of the skills cluttering my mind is how to chop cotton. LOL
Dehede011: still cluttering
Kim Kinnison999: good lord
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DenvToday: It’s been weeks since I picked cotton.
Reilloc: Bill needs and AIM invite to this room. I’m not on AIM. Can somebody invite him?
Kultsi KN: Oh shit, I was about to WB him.
Kim Kinnison999: i’m probably the dummy in the room..i can barely squeeze into the 98th percentile on a good day
Kultsi KN: Invitation does not seem to work…
Dehede011: Which side of the demarcation line, Kim?
Kim Kinnison999: oh..just about right on it hehe
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Dehede011: Kultsi, Bill asks that you try again
bmaranta: Greetings, all 🙂
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BPRAL22169: That did it. Thanks.
Kultsi KN: YW
Dehede011: Feel better now, Bill?
BPRAL22169: Much better, except dead tired and about to pass out from heat prostration
DenvToday: Well, I must go. I just popped in to say to you all. See you at the next one.
BPRAL22169: So, the topic is Heinlein’s warm-body democracies. Where are we now?
DenvToday: Bye for now!
Kultsi KN: Bye!
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Kim Kinnison999: trying to decide if the world’s headed for Soylent Green or the future of Star Trek LOL
Kultsi KN: Widely off-topic, Bill
BPRAL22169: I see.
Kultsi KN: But do give it a go
Dehede011: It will be far better than Star Trek because we will all get to be Captain Kirk
BPRAL22169: Well, he didn’t seem to have any great fondness for them — nor did he ever suggest the “classical” solution — franchise for property-owners only.
bmaranta: Do we all get the chicks like Kirk did, too? 🙂
Kim Kinnison999: can i be JeanLuc instead?
Dehede011: Or at least Mr. Heinlein
Dehede011: Yeah, Kim, you take that role. I am Cherokee and have too much hair
Kim Kinnison999: oh great..you’d make a WONDERFUL token first officer 😉
BPRAL22169: Did anybody read a series of gigglous satires R.A. Lafferty wrote in the 1960’s and 1970’s — the first story was “Polity and Customs amoing the Camiroi.”
Dehede011: Saints protect me.
Dehede011: What did I ever do to deserve being made a Hollywood Indian’
Kim Kinnison999: it pays well….
Kultsi KN: Never seen, Bill,
Dehede011: And I get a life time supply of glycerin tears to run down my cheek
BPRAL22169: Well worth reading.
Kim Kinnison999: ohyeah..we need you to do some…’face art’….
Kultsi KN: What was it about?
BPRAL22169: Speaking of glycerin tears — did everyone see the newsbit about President Reagan
bmaranta: I just found out on AFH
Dehede011: No, were they hamming it up.
BPRAL22169: Among the Camiroi, any citizen could be tapped for any job that needs donig at any time
Kultsi KN: It got mentioned upstream
Kim Kinnison999: i just thank god Schwartsenger (sp?) isn’t native born
BPRAL22169: I know he’s going down in the judgment of history as one of the very greatest of American presidents, but I never could warm to the man.
Dehede011: Number three or four?
BPRAL22169: Number? Depends on how you feel about Lincoln.
Dehede011: Nominations, Washington, Lincoln, the two Roosevelts,???
BPRAL22169: I tend to lower Lincoln because he didn’t really care about the slavery question
Dehede011: Careful don’t let that politician fake you out Bill
BPRAL22169: Jefferson as no. 1, no contenders. Washington as no. 2; Reagan, Lincoln,
Kim Kinnison999: washington, jefferson, wilson is underrated…,
BPRAL22169: I think teddy roosevelt’s contributions were great but also somewhat overrated because of the sentimental appeal.
Kim Kinnison999: reagan won’t make my list at all
BPRAL22169: Wilson was a violent racist; that counts against him
BPRAL22169: Why not?
Dehede011: Yeah, I started to argue Jefferson but he had his strengths.
Kim Kinnison999: jimmy carter because he’s definately the last and possibly the first honest man to hold the office heh
BPRAL22169: Jimmy Carter? Give me some of what you’re smoking.
Dehede011: Heck, Kim, he couldn’t even fly a heliocopter out of the desert.
BPRAL22169: “came to office with the finest preparation and gave the pooorest performance of any president in history.”
Dehede011: For honest how about Harry Truman
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Kim Kinnison999: i give points for him being a good honest man. my standards of ‘greatest president’ obviously vary from the majority 😛
BPRAL22169: You might say.
BPRAL22169: I take it the “no” was to Truman, LNC?
Reilloc: No, it was to Kim.
BPRAL22169: Truman was the last of the citizen-presidents, and moderately honest for Congress.
Kim Kinnison999: it’s MY list..not YOURS 😛
Reilloc: I’m with him that Carter was to be remembered and Regan best forgotten
BPRAL22169: OK. Reagan was as close as single-handedly as it is possible to get responsible for ending the Cold War — making Mutual Assured Destruction technologically obsolete.
Dehede011 has entered the room.
Reilloc: Regan was the opening of the door to the proof that the Republicans found out any moron can be their candidate
Kim Kinnison999: oh bullcrap bpral..he presided over the endgame of 50 years of bankrupting the soviets is all
Dehede011: I was booted, Kim didn’t like my comment about Carter???
BPRAL22169: Kim, I guess you weren’t actually awaken when all that was happening?
Reilloc: I was and he’s right.
Dehede011: No, but my Russian neighbors were and they say Reagan brought them down.
Kim Kinnison999: the soviets fell because the west..mainly the US..BANKRUPTED them..it took almost 50 years and reagan only had the honor to preside over the endgame
BPRAL22169: No, he’s not. There were elements of endgame about it — you can say that with a great deal more confidence about the Russian side of it, collapse of the Soviety Union, but that’s not what I was talking about.
Dehede011: Kim, that is a gameplan straight from the DNC
Reilloc: Regan raised the national deficit to $3 trillion and instituted absolutely no national policy of any note.
Dehede011: You can go back and find the DNC had no clue the USSR was weakening or that they had a game plan to do so
Kim Kinnison999: if you want to give credit? give it to george bush who showed the soviets in iran that all our nice tech toys actually worked..it likely stopped them from doing something stupid in europe
BPRAL22169: If you read the historical documents about the debates in 1945-1946, they point out over and over again that offense had outrun defense and that there was no practical defense to atomic weapons. Hence MAD
BPRAL22169: Fortyyears later, someone (Heinlein/Pournelle’Niven, others) said to ronald Reagan, defense has swung back; it’s now possible to defend against atomic weaponry; Reagan faced down his own policy advisors to say, that’s what
BPRAL22169: we’re going to do.
Kim Kinnison999: tell me about MAD..i was born in 52 and grew up 10 miles from SAC NE regional command..
BPRAL22169: And this is supposed to be relevant to the topic under discussion?
Dehede011: And Reagan discovered that at that late stage the only thing proping up the USSR was the US
Reilloc: Heinlein said that unless you keep involved in politics, more Regans’ll be elected.
Reilloc: That’s, of course, a generous paraphrase.
Kim Kinnison999: as relevant as our harping on reagans defense against ballistic missiles..which never was implemented and only had enough research to show it’s NOT practical at preseent tech levels
Dehede011: Where did he say Reagan
BPRAL22169: He didn’t, Ron.
Reilloc: He couldn’t bring himself to utter the name.
Dehede011: I didn’t think so.
BPRAL22169: LNC is paraphrasing, shall we say, liberally.
Reilloc: What would Heinlein say about electing a guy with an IQ of 90 to the Presidency?
BPRAL22169: What he did say was: Always vote; you may not have anyone you want to vote for, but there will always be someone you want to vote against.
Kim Kinnison999: reilloc..before or after he got done crying? ;(
Dehede011: I still say the key to understanding our national politics is John Taylor Gotto
Reilloc: You mean laughing, Kim.
Kim Kinnison999: no reilloc..he loved this country
Dehede011: And you don’t even have to be a conspiracy theorists
Reilloc: I’ve never seen him quoted as advocating crying over spilt milk.
Dehede011: Does anyone have a copy of Reagan’s IQ test??
BPRAL22169: Actually, RAH went over to the Republican Party to vote for Reagan in 1980.
Dehede011: Thank you. The sound of an honest man
Kultsi KN: Ahhh! Bowmore is really great smoky stuff!
Reilloc: If he’d known about the Iran hostage deal Regan cut to delay release until after the election, would he have gone over?
Dehede011: Who knows, but if Bill can be that honest I will mention Ginny telling me that in one more election she could have made a Libertarian out of “Robert.”
BPRAL22169: Funny, Ginny said several times that he voted Democrat consistently until Reagan, but I think she has blocked out the Goldwater campaign in 64
Kim Kinnison999: i google and find numbers between 98 and 105 for reagans iq
Reilloc: If he’d known Nancy was consulting an astrologer and telling Ronnie what to do, would he have gone over.
BPRAL22169: How were those figures arrived at?
Dehede011: Tested or extimated.
Kim Kinnison999: rated based on scholarly achievements, writings that they alone produced without aid of staff, their ability to speak with clarity, and several other psychological factor
Kim Kinnison999: estimated
Reilloc: Hey, Kim. What’s Clinton’s?
bmaranta: do you have a URL, Kim?
BPRAL22169: I would be a little careful about tossing those figures around, then.
Kim Kinnison999: they claim 182…
Kim Kinnison999: rated based on scholarly achievements, writings that they alone produced without aid of staff, their ability to speak with clarity, and several other psychological factor
Kim Kinnison999: oops
Kim Kinnison999: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm
Dehede011: And his sexual drive quotient.
Reilloc: Is, that, like, double Regan’s? Or Regan’s plus Bush’s plus 25?
Dehede011: In other words Kim with a flexible set of standards allowing us to arrive at our own opinion
Kim Kinnison999: dehe… 9 E100
Dehede011: Now, who has Bush’s IQ and where did you get it.
Dehede011: Flight School alone demands an above average IQ
Reilloc: Unless daddy’s got connections.
BPRAL22169: I asked Jerry Pournelle exactly how extensively Heinlein had participated in the documents that led to the enunciation of SDI. Here is part of his reply (I don’t recall that he placed any restriction on quoting)
BPRAL22169: The Council wrote a draft of the President’s SDI memo. Much of it was incorporated into the President’s speech, including several phrases
Dehede011: Unless Daddy also wants to get junior killed. I was in Navy Flight School and fudging in those places is fatal
BPRAL22169: the authorship of which is not recorded. Heinlein participated in that effort. Reagan himself added several key phrases. He was a better speech writer
Reilloc: Look at daddy’s estimated IQ
BPRAL22169: than any of those he employed, and he and they all knew it. Reagan was the real author of SDI in that he was open to strategic advice from all of us.
Kim Kinnison999: yeah..but SDI was not only never implemented, all the tests showed it was impractical with 80’s tech and probably still is
Dehede011: I’ve never seen it but he graduated Yale with Phi Beta Kappa in Economics
Reilloc: Old, “the bombing starts in five minutes” could really turn a phrase.
BPRAL22169: that doesn’t matter in th eleast. What matters is that it was the commitment to strategic defense that made MAD technologically obsolescent.
Dehede011: Reilloc you are bitter at losing an election. LOL
Kim Kinnison999: er..it might have..at some future date…
Reilloc: Smart pebbles made anything obsolete?
Reilloc: Smart pebbles is a Flintstones episode.
Dehede011: Heinlein told Clark so didn’t he?
Reilloc: Dehe, I didn’t lose any election.
Dehede011: No but your side plainly did
Reilloc: Before 2000, my side was the Supreme Court and it seems to have won the election.
Dehede011: Yes, defeating your Florida Supremes
Reilloc: Interesting that you acknowledge it.
Dehede011: I do, they overturned, in turn, five or six lower Florida courts also with Democrat Judges.
Kim Kinnison999: if you took statistics 101 you should know when the margin is small enough, any recount error is greater than it and there’s no sense bemoaning the 2000 election..going with the original and first recount made sense
Reilloc: Well, if it’s fine by you, it’s fine by me.
BPRAL22169: I agree there is no point in bemoaning the 2000 election.
Reilloc: It’s your new Viet Nam, not mine.
Dehede011: Guys, my take on that was that the Democrat election Judges down there recounted votes until they finally told Gore etal they would go to the pen for him
Kim Kinnison999: reilloc..now if you want to discuss… 9/11..America’s Reichstag fire…i’m with you
Dehede011: Yes, we had to work very hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of defeat in Viet
Reilloc: Wasn’t that your Mr. Nixon who did that?
Dehede011: No, your friends in congress
BPRAL22169: I have to wonder though if having a different president in office would have made much net difference — it seems to me we’re looking at an Allen Drury scenario here.
Dehede011: Which time Bill
Kim Kinnison999: wasn’t it LeMay that said we could have won vietnam in any 2 week period the govt would have let him plan the bombing raids on the north? heh
BPRAL22169: Which “which time” Ron?
Dehede011: the Allen Drury comment, Bill
BPRAL22169: Yeah, well, I do’t think there’s any disagreement that the Johnson’ adminsitration’s vietnam policy had some serious problems.
Dehede011: First Johnson, then MacNamara, etc
Kim Kinnison999: goddamn nixon and his ‘secret plan to end the vietnam war’..yeah..5 more years of useless deaths followed by surrender..i hope he’s burning in hell
Reilloc: Somebody asked Bush about Domino Theory and he said, “isn’t that where it’s there in 30 minutes or it’s free?”
BPRAL22169: I meant, Ron, that Bush is trying very hared to be seen as an Allen Drury conservative president (Preserve and Protect?) and Al Gore might very well have acted like an Allen Drury liberal president.
Dehede011: Guys I was a consultant at Ford. you will find no MacNamara lovers there
Reilloc: Did you help design the Pinto?
Dehede011: Could be, it is what might have been………
Dehede011: I took four million dollars out of the first six plants they gave me.
Dehede011: And never laid off a soul
Reilloc: Now I’m confused.
Reilloc: You were at the Betty Ford Clinic or what?
Dehede011: River Rouge, Kansas City and a total of about 21 or 22 Ford Body and Assembly Plants
bmaranta: gotta go, folks. Cheers!
BPRAL22169: I think Heinlein might have siad something like: the problem with warm body democracies is that they give us things like the 2000 election, with neither candidate credible, either as a president or as a human being.
Reilloc: Later, Brian.
BPRAL22169: Much like the 2004 election is shaping up, now that the Democrats seem determined to throw the election to Bush.
Dehede011: See you
Kultsi KN: Bye, Brian!
bmaranta: Bye, all 🙂
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Kim Kinnison999: i remember a quote, dunno if it’s RAH or who..something to the effect ‘once the public discovers it can vote itself bread and circuses, the republic is doomed’
Dehede011: I think that is an old one, Kim
BPRAL22169: Yeah, that’s Heinlein. One of the Notebook entries, I think.
BPRAL22169: But that observation about bread and circuses is at least as old as Gibbon
Kultsi KN: Sure, but was it his or just filed-off S/N
Kim Kinnison999: when Heinlein files, it’s HIS..LOL
Dehede011: Bill, I really wish you would read Gatto, I would love to hear your take on him
BPRAL22169: S/N? Sid and nancy?
Kultsi KN: Serial Number
Reilloc: Gibbon: Z.Z. Top?
BPRAL22169: I’ll get around to him one day — when — ah, thanks — the stack of Must Read Two Months Ago Soonest gets under two feet deep.
BPRAL22169: I read quite a lot of John Holt in the 1970’s.
Dehede011: Yes, but I think Gatto is much more into the political background of why things went the way they did
BPRAL22169: His name comes up in a lot of contexts.
Dehede011: And it is that I specifically would like your take on.
BPRAL22169: One day, my prints will come…
Kim Kinnison999: I don’t think warm body voting is the real problem.i think the problem is the way the public has been educated and trained not to expect or demand ethics from their leaders, both business and political, and the lack of punishment
Dehede011: Kim, that is very close to Gatto
BPRAL22169: There’s something to be said for that. Mark Twain’s remark about America’s only native criminal class was before the full warm-body theory was implemented.
Dehede011: I think I could paraphrase Gatto by saying that the public has been educated to be warm bodies.
BPRAL22169: Well, yeah. the most important result wanted from American education is docile workers — not even effective workers; just docile.
Dehede011: He would say consumers first of all, I think
Kim Kinnison999: i blame television..really..i’m just old enough to remember before it took over..you used to KNOW your neighbors..have time to do community things..
Kultsi KN: This silicon thingy is almost as bad.
Dehede011: Gatto blames the leaders that designed the schools to educate in the manner they do
BPRAL22169: I am one year older than you, and what I have been able to observe is that people who like neighbors and community things, do neighbors and community things irrespective of television. But television makes it easy not to have to.
Dehede011: According to Gatto they started taking over the teachers colleges around the time of the Civil War. Everything since has been down hill
BPRAL22169: Gives the illusion of being in a community without actually being in one.
Dehede011: Not to be offensive Bill but again you agree with Gatto.
Kim Kinnison999: what dehe is saying is no doubt true..give TV the credit for the final…distraction..and breaking up of the community they needed
BPRAL22169: The really pernicious thing about that is that you get (the illusion of) community without having to work the machinery of community.
Dehede011: Gatto calls the leaders the Brahmin Class
BPRAL22169: I think probably Gatto agrees with me about these things.
Dehede011: And the destruction of the community and community standards leaves the Brahmin an opening to introduce standards
Kim Kinnison999: wise of him bpral…. 😉
Dehede011: He is older than you Bill and was saying it first — will you accept parallel discovery?
BPRAL22169: Arrgh! I jsut tried to find a biography and the first one I came to has NO DATES AT ALL!
Kim Kinnison999: lol
BPRAL22169: Parallel, ok.
BPRAL22169: A lot of these ideas I came to when I was in high school — and as I mentioned from reading Holt in the early 70’s.
BPRAL22169: I just haven’t had much occasion to change the notions much since.
Dehede011: Bill, you mean Gatto, I am pretty sure he is past retirement age.
Reilloc: Question about education.
Kultsi KN: shoot! 😉
Dehede011: Oh, Holt, in that case I think you do have senority on Gatto
Reilloc: Does neatness count?
Kim Kinnison999: yes. neatness has to count. it shows an important component of personal discipline heh
BPRAL22169: Fucking useless! That biography was the one quoted in the next three or four places on the net. How can you have a biographical sketch that does not list a single date!!!
Reilloc: I think it does, for similar reasons.
Kultsi KN: me 2.
BPRAL22169: Yeah, the photo looks like he’s in his 60’s.
Reilloc: I’ve been told by professional educators with post-graduate credentials that it doesn’t matter how something looks if the student can show he knows the material.
Kim Kinnison999: that’s their need to make life easier for themselves..they’re so goddamned grateful they managed to teach anybody anything they’re not picky lol
Reilloc: I think it’s more subtle than that.
Kim Kinnison999: go on..
Dehede011: I agree, Reilloc
Reilloc: I think they think they’ve done what no Greek philosopher could do and admitted couldn’t be done:
Reilloc: Separate mind and body, form and substance.
BPRAL22169: LOL ROFLMAO
Reilloc: They believe they’ve elevated substance over procedure but forgotten there can’t be one without the other.
BPRAL22169: Epistemology humor — arr-arr! Byte the Pythagorean!
Kim Kinnison999: maybe some of the ‘intelektules’ among them go that far..but I honest to god believe it’s just a case of being grateful their miserable efforts succeeded to some degree they just don’t care
Reilloc: Granted, it’s more than a little true that often those who can’t do, teach.
Dehede011: I often reflect that when I was four, three little grade school girls taught me to start reading in a couple of afternoons but these folks can’t get it done in 12 years.
Reilloc: It’s a position, though, that’s consistent with the elevation of education theory over educating.
Kultsi KN: And those who can’t teach make up education plans…
Kim Kinnison999: and lets not forget the other side of the equation..with the future so bleak, wealth and opportunity transfering into so few hands faster and faster, kids KNOW that on some level and Just Don’t Care
Reilloc: It’s the theorists who are in charge and the rank and file, garden variety teacher can’t do anything about it.
Reilloc: Education theorist are the shamen of their profession. Defy them and you’ll be out in the cold.
Dehede011: Kim take what you just said and consider that to be what the Brahmin want us to believe but that it isn’t true
Kim Kinnison999: well dehede..with 1% of the population in the US now owning 36% of the wealth, and the top 10% owning over 75%..it is true
Reilloc: Dehe, take what you just said and apply the admonition to your advice.
Dehede011: No, that is one fact and I won’t dispute you. But is that established for all time and each individual
Reilloc: The vast majority of the credit-card-based household economies in this country are a new set of tires away from declaring bankruptcy.
Kim Kinnison999: the decent paying jobs that used to support the middle class have been going overseas for 20 years now and faster every year
Dehede011: I had to do a ton of research for my novel including about three US tax courses. For a group as intelligent as this one
Dehede011: I think the world is still you oyster.
Kim Kinnison999: not EVERYBODY can be a programmer or system admin..and truth to tell, even if they could, they don’t NEED that many
Reilloc: What novel?
BPRAL22169: Here’s something odd: John Taylor Gatto has a book of lit crit on the major works of H.P Lovecraft
Dehede011: I’ll be damned.
Reilloc: I like the name.
Dehede011: But if people of this intelligence educate themselves they can follow the jobs — that is how they came to the US
BPRAL22169: “Major Works of H.P.Lovecraft.”
Kim Kinnison999: Dehede..I’ll agree..the smart ones can always make out if they’re motivated, but damnitall, if you have an 80% underclass in a country living hand to mouth, liberty and freedom CANNOT STAND
Dehede011: And when we make a buck if we quit believing what the Brahmin taught us about investment we can make more money
BPRAL22169: Gatto, John TaylorThe Major Works of H.P. Lovecraft. A Critical Commentary New York: Monarch/Simon & Schuster, 1977 Soft Cover. Very Good. First Edition. 8vo – over 7¾” – 9¾” tall. 110 pages. ABEBooks.com
Dehede011: You got me there Kim. That 80% always live off the mercy of the top few percent
Kultsi KN: Good price — for JTG
Dehede011: And Kim, Heinlein was right, but the Gulf will probably widen.
Kim Kinnison999: i know..it really hurts to see america die in my lifetime.
Reilloc: Oh, Kim.
Kim Kinnison999: they’ll still call it the same thing..but it won’t be
Dehede011: Hey, we thought it ended in 1492
Reilloc: I’m on your side but that’s melodramatic.
Dehede011: Will you buy with a whimper not a roar?
Kim Kinnison999: dehede..if you think leaving behind a hunter-gatherer existence where most of the population was dead from old age caused by malnutrition, brutal work and exposure was the end..well..
Dehede011: It was, Kim. It was also a new beginning.
Kim Kinnison999: oh..by 30 or 40 years old
BPRAL22169: America died in 1985, Kim; the ship has already sailed. The corpse stopped twitching in 1985, I should say.
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Kim Kinnison999: no BP..i count the ‘patriot act’ and ‘homeland security’ (both classic fascisttalk) as the final end
BPRAL22169: Nope. The idea of America was completely abandoned when for the first time in american history it became mandatory to carry ID — and fill in I-9 forms when you got a job. Up to that time there was no law that could require
BPRAL22169: you to possess ID or even be able to read.
Dehede011: Thanks Bill,
Dehede011: That is as good as any
Kim Kinnison999: good point
Kultsi KN: No shit, Bill! You have that?
BPRAL22169: It’s true that the “patriot act” is a shameful thing, completely contrary to the American way of doing things — but it’s not when America died.
Dehede011: I finally came to realise something when I was studying Tax Accounting
BPRAL22169: Yes, Kultsi. The U.S, became a police state in 1985.
BPRAL22169: All the patriot act is doing is to move a little closer to the European notion of a police state in operation.
Dehede011: We do not tax the wealthy. We tax anyone that looks like he is getting wealthy
Kultsi KN: That’s about what old USSR used to be — not that the recent anarchy is any better
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BPRAL22169: Yes, good point, Ron: what’s penalized is upward mobility.
Dehede011: And still the barn door is wide open Bill. More and more I don’t see the Brahmin as that smart.
BPRAL22169: It’s like the impossibly high thresshold imposed on startups. 90% of all new businesses fail because the laws are not set up so they can succeed.
BPRAL22169: The REAL problem is the mythology people believe in.
Dehede011: Agreed, re-read this discussion
BPRAL22169: But, it’s like I say about science: if you don’t like the predictions your theory gives you, get another theory.
BPRAL22169: If you don’t like the hopless situation your mythology puts you in, get another mythology.
Dehede011: Does anyone remember Poppers test for one’s own beliefs?
BPRAL22169: Can’t say I recall — it’s been decades.
Dehede011: I’m not big on this so you guys may have to help me. the idea is that for each thing we believe we should ask ourselves
Dehede011: What would I have to know to persuade me to the contrary
Dehede011: What would make me change my mind?
Kim Kinnison999: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/falsification.html
Kim Kinnison999: I AM the google master hehe
BPRAL22169: Oh — falsifiability
Dehede011: Thank God someone is. LOL
Dehede011: Funny, in the larger sense I don’t think we have ever gotten off of warm body democracy. We have stayed profoundly on subject
Kim Kinnison999: this one may be more complete http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/
Reilloc: Except when Regan came up.
Reilloc: Him being cold and all now.
Kim Kinnison999: well even then..he was a result of same
Dehede011: Truly in Gatto’s terms I see Reagan as more of a Washington figure.
BPRAL22169: Who was up against Reagan — was that the McGovern campaign? Or — mcGovern ran against Nixon’s second term, didn’t he? Carter? Yes, it was Carter running that year.
Kim Kinnison999: excuse me..i need a moment to thank God again Arnold isn’t native born
Dehede011: To wit, for all Washington’s greatness when he was in the room with Franklin, Adams, Jefferson and some others, Washington was not the intellectual
Kim Kinnison999: WHO could be in a room with franklin and jefferson and be an intellectual?
Dehede011: Adams in his way
BPRAL22169: John Adams — but JQA was the great Federalist thinker.
Dehede011: Adams was my kind of guy, he started his day with a pint of beer or hard cider and he loved his wife.
Kim Kinnison999: Ben Franklin..the only President of the United States..who was NEVER President of the United States LOL
BPRAL22169: Even Hamilton, in a smarmy counterrevolutionary way.
BPRAL22169: Let’s face it “there were giants in the Earth in those days….”
Dehede011: Someone is escaping my mind
Kultsi KN: Arnold’s from Austria, ja?
Kim Kinnison999: Ja
Dehede011: Arnold is one of the brightest men in this country, but his public persona overpowers his private one
Kultsi KN: Well, _think_ about the other guys from Austria — especially that crazy painter…
Reilloc has left the room.
Dehede011: Association means little.
Kim Kinnison999: I’ve known too many actors to believe it’s a good idea for them to have power
Dehede011: Who called Arnold an actor although he was no worse than many
Kim Kinnison999: lol
Kim Kinnison999: well ..if we can call ronnie an actor arnold surely qualifies hehehe
BPRAL22169: I don’t know — he hasn’t made major mistakes since taking office, which, considering his background, is something of a miracle. I don’t like his Hollywood handlers, though. clash of styles, at the very least — and no improvement
Dehede011: Arnold has an Masters in International Trade from The University of Wisconsin system and I am told owns downtown Denver.
Kultsi KN: It’s a sad world where you get ahead with screen popularity…
Dehede011: Kultsi he got ahead before he was an actor
Kim Kinnison999: intelligence is not the issue..actors are the only humans on earth capable of more self delusion than the average politico
Dehede011: He was a multi millioonaire before he left body building the first time
BPRAL22169: Have to be — to survive in a profession with 95% unemployment.
Dehede011: I suppose
Dehede011: I am told by my son that he is a model maker that is highly paid for his art.
Dehede011: Not the clinton style model maker
Kultsi KN: Clarify, pls.
BPRAL22169: The juxtaposition of “Clinton” and “style” in the same sentence always provokes an anticipatory shudder of disgust.
Dehede011: He is supposed to enjoy building models of Roman Villas or something. I am told he gets a very high price for them.
Kim Kinnison999: arg..back..my daschundt spotted a squirrel and wouldn’t shut up till i let him chase it up a tree..he still hasn’t figured out where they go when they go up the tree heheheh
Kultsi KN: snort
Dehede011: Gents, I have enjoined this immensely. But it is time for me to hit the track.
Kultsi KN: btw — a twelvepack is called ‘dachshund’ over here…
BPRAL22169: Must be pert near 7 pm there
Kim Kinnison999: i wouldn’t have any other breed..
Kim Kinnison999: i need to make supper myself..nice chatting dehede
Dehede011: very close, Bill and I can walk in the cool of the evening. Bye
Kim Kinnison999: and thank you all for the interesting conversation(s)
Dehede011: Thank you
Kultsi KN: See ya!
Dehede011 has left the room.
Kim Kinnison999 has left the room.
Kultsi KN: woops! they keep disappearing.
Kultsi KN: What going on with you nowadays, Bill?
BPRAL22169: When did LNC sneak out of there?
Kultsi KN: About 15 minutes ago or so
BPRAL22169: Let’s see — the last six weeks has been a tale of deadlines and overwork; unfortunately not very exciting to relate. We did make a good showing at the PCA/ACA conference in mid-April and got a Heinlein section started.
BPRAL22169: A small victory , but I’ll take it.
BPRAL22169: Got the 14th issue of the Journal to the printers and am now working on the mailing labels; just finished turning in an article for the online Literary Encyclopedia — and there will soon be photos of the McHenry library
Kultsi KN: PCA/ACA?
BPRAL22169: Heinlein Exhibit — on the Society website, Ibelieve
BPRAL22169: Popular Culture Association/American Culture Association, two academic organizations that are very closely related and share chapters and conferences.
Kultsi KN: An attempt to establish Heinlein as a worthwhile cultural personality?
Kultsi KN: Which he was, of course.
BPRAL22169: Sort of — mostly to get papers appearing on Heinlein outside the ghetto. There’s a very tight academic clique that has had a stranglehold on Heinlein papers, and so I wanted to widen the field a bit.
Kultsi KN: Good.
BPRAL22169: And the next target is the Modern Language Association — the Big Time for American lit.
Kultsi KN: Even better.
BPRAL22169: One step at a time.
BPRAL22169: This thing for theonline Literary Encyclopedia focuses on Heinlein as a culture figure more than as a science fiction writer.
BPRAL22169: Every little bit helps
Kultsi KN: Heinlein is not a science fiction writer per se; the human aspect is much too strong.
BPRAL22169: And the person who organized this stuff at the PCA/ACA conference has gotten all of the papers to be printed in FOUNDATION, which is the European magazine of the Science Fiction Research Association (in the heart
BPRAL22169: of the enemy stronghold!)
BPRAL22169: When the LitEncyc thing is posted, I’ll run a notice on afh.
BPRAL22169: I think it will shock a few of the old-timers, though people in the Heinlein community won’t find anything terribly surprising in it.
Kultsi KN: not really, that is true.
BPRAL22169: Well, I have things to do on this end, so will say good night — or it’s very early a.m. for you, isn’t it?
Kultsi KN: The day’s a-dawning.
Kultsi KN: Good night to you, Bill. Be seeing you!
BPRAL22169: I think you are something like 13 hours ahead of me, so It’s about 6:00 a.m. there?
BPRAL22169: You, too.
Kultsi KN: No, 3 aante meridiem.
Kultsi KN: *ante
Kultsi KN: We are _way_ up in the North.
BPRAL22169: Oh? I thought you were farther (that’s okay — it looks Swedish the way you spelled it!) Ok, so you’re 10 hours ahead; that’s Greenwich +2. I
BPRAL22169: will remember
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
Kultsi KN: OK, guys, that’s all folks! Wrap it up — or are you there, listening, Aurora?
Kultsi KN: Apparently not. David, cut the log where you see fit — the discussion between Bill & me may, or may not, be public — ’twas interesting, anyway.
Kultsi KN: G’night, all!
Kultsi KN has left the room.
Aurorax13 has left the room.
End of Discussion