Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
93rd Birthday Celebration
Here begin the AFH Postings
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
AGplusone: All AOL is is an ISP … with added content.
TAWN3: I know
AGplusone: Hi, David … nice catch
dwrighsr: Hi everyone
TAWN3: But you just said once the chat starts I can close aol.
TAWN3: I get it. a joke?
AGplusone: I didn’t realize she’d named it “Heinlein Readers Group chat”
dwrighsr: Who named it that?
AGplusone: Yes, unless you’re running on BYOA as I am for an ISP
TAWN3: Who she? Ginny?
AGplusone: Girl who made up all the group pages that are linked to that page.
dwrighsr: double oh
AGplusone: There’s about fifty reading groups leaving AOL.
AGplusone: They are the group we were in orginally through three different sponsors on AOL
TAWN3: So why are we here? It seemed easier just on AIM, for the regulars anyway. We are starting to get too many web pages
dwrighsr: I don’t get anything but my mail reader when I try the Message board link. Do I need to add a mail server?
AGplusone: Because I’m supporting their efforts …
AGplusone: I don’t know, David. I used Netscape Communicator and it works.
dwrighsr: Let me try and see what I get
AGplusone: But Communicator has a newsgroup reader called “Messenger” as part of the package.
TAWN3: Can we still invite people in and be invited in via this route? In other words, once we get to AIM via the page, is it like it used to be?
dwrighsr: I get a mail server respond. No such group. Must be my news server not carrying it.
AGplusone: Lot of people who left Oprah before we did are linking back to the group who’s leaving …
AGplusone: Exactly …
AGplusone: See if the deja.com link works.
TAWN3: Also, can people without AIM now join us via the page? Is there some type of “Java AIM” embedded in it?
AGplusone: Java’s too much for many users and older computers and they’ve decided for the time not to use it.
AGplusone: Besides, Java rooms suck.
dwrighsr: The message board is AFH?
AGplusone: So far.
AGplusone: One of ’em.
TAWN3: That is because Bill Joy is scared of technology these days. <g>
AGplusone: Note your page is linked too.
dwrighsr: Ok. Now I understand. I disabled my news server, because it was giving me such poor performance that I switched to a browser strictly.
dwrighsr: Yeah. I saw the link. I updated the page to show your new stuff and made note that the room had changed slightly.
dwrighsr: The link on the web page works beautifully.
AGplusone: I’ve never used a news server, always used Netscape (or AOL’s junk thing … which delays and drops posts just as much as most servers)
dwrighsr: I switched to remarq.com
dwrighsr: except when I want a search, then I used deja.
AGplusone: All the posts today that I’ve been able to see from Netscape (via Loop.com) have been dribbling in 24 hours late.
dwrighsr: I told a number of people by IM to use the web page link and then create a new shortcut.
AGplusone: I’ll have to try remarq. I saw your post to Jeanette Wolfe
AGplusone: That was the ‘nice catch’ I mentioned when you came in.
AGplusone: Very nice job.
dwrighsr: One advantage to remarq is that a large number of the posts are visible each time you see them, so you have to skip over to get to new stuff, but that can be an advantage also.
AGplusone: Stephen Hudson (I think, the other Steve) dropped his WebTV and bought an iMac … and went to an ISP
AGplusone: Using Netscape I see a couple of thousand at a time if I set it that way
AGplusone: And they’re linked and I just pick the one I want to reread …
AGplusone: But I’ll have to try Remarq to go back …
dwrighsr: remarq gives you 10-15 at at time and usually starts with new ones, but I sometimes have to move back up to make sure I haven’t missed any.
AGplusone: I’ll have to take a screen shot to show you what I see with Netscape … it’s lots more than that.
dwrighsr: You can tell it watch a particular forum and go directly to it each time you start. It will tell you if there are new posts so you don’t have to read through all the threads to see if there is something new.
AGplusone: Lists all the threads … maybe 50-75 or so … and the ones you haven’t read are in bold or underlined if you haven’t opened the thread and read only some of them.
dwrighsr: You can also set it to ignore threads, but not individual posters.
AGplusone: You can do the same thing with netscape … and ignore individual posters, or screen out keywords in title like “$$$”
dwrighsr: I did use Netscape at one time, so I know what you are talking about. The problem I had was that I was still seeing what my ISP was giving me, so I was missing a lot.
AGplusone: But I understand some newsreaders get even trickier …
dwrighsr: I also tried Forte? Had the same problem.
AGplusone: We’re all in the hands of the ISPs unless we go deja vu or remarq
TAWN3: You can do all that with AOL, plus it only shows unread unless you ask for all.
TAWN3: But the threads don’t seem to want to stay together.
dwrighsr: Are you going to send me any other back logs to post? I’d love to see them myself. Or does Bill have them?
AGplusone: I’ve got to write a tricky little article for January’s The Heinlein Journal on using newsgroups … so I may write you.
dwrighsr: I really need to subscribe to that. Maybe sometime soon, I hope
AGplusone: for infor on using newsreaders since some may use that option rather than Netscape or whatever Microsloth uses
dwrighsr: any time
AGplusone: Netscape does keep the threads together, plus, Tawn, when someone crossposts to another group you can see where he’s come from, and to where he’s cross-posted …
AGplusone: And if they change headers you can see that too …
dwrighsr: I could do some documentation using techniques I’ve worked out at my job, with snapshots of the screen and text.
AGplusone: And you can cross-post back if you wish. AOL doesn’t cross post.
AGplusone: I could use that!
AGplusone: I oughta get you and Mike together … he’s been doing a lot of things very similar to what you’re doing
AGplusone: Good …
SAcademy has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Which Mike is that? Mike Shear. Hi SA. Welcome
SAcademy: Good evening. I’m somewhat early.
AGplusone: G’evening, ma’am. No, Mike Catalano, in Florida.
Pnther5o5 has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Don’t think I know him by that name. is he a regular here?
AGplusone: He’s a tech for some computer firm there … leads one of the other groups that have left AOL
AGplusone: Remember the one who kept the queue on the AOL Anderson chat.
dwrighsr: Right I remembe him.
AGplusone: MikeC89102 or something like that.
dwrighsr: I’ll look him up in the chat log.
AGplusone: Hi, John. Evening.
AGplusone: Did we do the links the way you suggested for the Baen chatroom?
TAWN3: Good evening SA, nice to see you!
Pnther5o5: I just put a shortcut on my desktop. I’m over in the Baen chat right now in the middle of a pun war. A guy just showed up with the first name “Kelvin.” And, Lord, is the punning bad.
AGplusone: BTW, remind me how to spell the past participle of “to Shine?”
AGplusone: two “n’s” or three?
Pnther5o5: I mean some of these puns are absolute zeroes.
AGplusone: In my e mail reminder today ….
AGplusone: Well repeat anything he comes up with that’s fit for human ears … John.
AGplusone: I.e., is it “on the bounce and shinning” or “on the bounce and shining”?
Pnther5o5: shining I would think. Why?
AGplusone: I misspelled it. Gharlane of Edore noted it and sent me a big <G>
dwrighsr: maybe you meant ‘sinning’ 🙂
Pnther5o5: They other would be climbing up a tree. Or a close misspelling.
SAcademy: You wouldn’t want them to shin, would you?
AGplusone: The rule: “double the consonent and add ‘ing'”
NSTAFL has entered the room.
Pnther5o5: Not if it is a hard vowel.
dwrighsr: A newcomer. Welcome
AGplusone: Hi, Rinehart
NSTAFL: Greetings All!
Pnther5o5: Then it is a single consonant.
AGplusone: Found it easy?
Pnther5o5: All Hail!
NSTAFL: Not to be anal, but it’s spelled “Reinhardt” 🙂
AGplusone: If I could spell maybe I’d be able to write … eh?
NSTAFL: How did you know I was Canajun?
dwrighsr: My wife is an ‘Earnhardt’ not to be confused with them Ohio Earnharts
AGplusone: 🙂 but I’ve alreadly demonstrated adequately I cannot on many occasions!
NSTAFL: Isn’t there a stock car driver with that name? Dale Earnhardt?
dwrighsr: Yeah, a distant cousin, but more famous
NSTAFL: Maybe he can get you into a race sometime 🙂
AGplusone: Anyone ever read a writer named Stephen Hunter?
NSTAFL: Stephen Hunter? Absolutely.
AGplusone: He’s got a new one out. About Earl Swagger
NSTAFL: He’s a bit uneven but some of his stuff is really good. I especially liked Dirty White Boys….
AGplusone: So I’m rereading the others in anticipation of buying it.
NSTAFL: I thought the last book was supposed to end the trilogy.
AGplusone: Dirty WB is next. I’m a going thru Black Light now, read Point of Impact last night, and will read DWB tomorrow or this weekend.
NSTAFL: The trilogy was Dirty White Boys, Point of Impact and Black Light, right?
AGplusone: Guess Earl ain’t fully mined out yet.
NSTAFL: I’ll definitely pick that one up when it comes out.
AGplusone: This one goes back to the late 40s. Cleaning up Hot Springs. It’s out.
NSTAFL: I’ll have to look for it….
NSTAFL: Who else is here?
AGplusone: Well, time to send out invitations? See anyone David.
dwrighsr: It’s really too bad that I can’t keep all of this color and such when I post the logs, but it makes the file about 4 times larger. Shame. it really looks good.
AGplusone: I’m David too … SA is a visiting lady, Tawn is his real first name … Pnther is John Ringo … and we’ll drag the rest on in about now and get started.
dwrighsr: Did LearethGFS come in? I don’t see anyone else in my buddy list
AGplusone: Havn’t had her in yet.
AGplusone: I see Gifford
Featherz Dad has entered the room.
dwrighsr: I see him , but haven’t had any response from him
NSTAFL: I have a dumb question. When I start AIM, I get a task on my taskbar (Win ’95) with an icon on it and no title. When I look at it, there’s nothing there except a close icon. Do I need to leave this running or will it kill my chat session if I close it?
Featherz Dad: Hi folks. I am here after a meeting of the local SF club.
dwrighsr: His entry indicates that he is away
AGplusone: Hi, Will, how’s Feather?
AGplusone: I left him a ‘join us when you can’ reply
Featherz Dad: Feather is fine. I would be fine, too, if I always got what I wanted.
AGplusone: LOL … Bob has to get washed tonight … he’s not going to be a happy tom.
SAcademy: Do you actually wash Bob?
Featherz Dad: WASHED!! Feather keeps himself clean. And he keeps his claws sharp to make sure no one does anything else about it
AGplusone: I’m going to have to … he’s got a flea irritation that’s developing into a little problem.
AGplusone: We’re going to have to really con him ….
Featherz Dad: He would prolly let his vet wash him. He loves her and most women. He is a slut like his dad
SAcademy: Poor thing!
AGplusone: I have this little combined brush-soap dispenser that he thinks is great to be scratched with ….
dwrighsr: My niece’s vet gave her valium to give to her cat. Said don’t bring him back without it.
Featherz Dad: If I HAD to wash him, I would do it in the anteroom of an emergency room so that they could work on ME immediately afterward
AGplusone: So if my wife and daughter hold and pet him and mummer to him how much we love and and what a good boy he is … I get to do the dirty deed.
SAcademy: Snowy keeps himself clearn.
Featherz Dad: Well, Feather might accept it if two women held him. It would certainly make the situation more attractive.
NSTAFL: I’ve never met a cat that didn’t keep himself clean.
AGplusone: Bob has, up to recently, but something has developed from the heat, and it’s really bad this year.
AGplusone: He goes out and rambles a lot …
Featherz Dad: Is it RAH or somebody else who has a cat in a story and the narrator notices that the cat isn’t well because he FAILS to keep himself as clean as usual.
dwrighsr: They generally do, but when they get a bad flea infestation, you just have to do something. My son’s cat had that problem last month. Had to have special baths at the vets.
NSTAFL: My two really like giving each other tongue baths. They even give me one sometimes 🙂
AGplusone: Two is always better than one for grooming.
Featherz Dad: Feather has a universe limited to this apartment.
Featherz Dad: Tongue baths and two better than one; what kind of chat IS this
dwrighsr: cats, baths, grooming, touching. sounds like a regular Heinlein thing to me 🙂
Featherz Dad: yup
SAcademy: Wait until Laurie gets here–she has four cats!
Featherz Dad: I didn’t say it wasn’t a good chat
AGplusone: Heinlein Birthday Party chat … okay, starting up: first go-round … what’s the most influential Heinlein story on you? Which part? And why?
Featherz Dad: four cats. A man cannot serve two masters but FOUR
dwrighsr: That’s a hard one. Hmm….
AGplusone: We’ll do it alphabetcal. Me first:
Featherz Dad: MOON. most influential, sometimes favorite
NSTAFL: GA? Georgia? 🙂
dwrighsr: I’m in Georgia, but I meant go ahead
AGplusone: either Troopers, or SiaSL … Troopers for the notion that you always do you duty as well as you can and SiaSL for Jubals thoughts concerning God, and her wishes, if any.
AGplusone: I was young enough both times that I really needed non-orthodox guidance in both areas.
NSTAFL: That’s a tough question. I think I’d give a different answer depending on my mood at the time…. Right now, I’ve just read Stranger for the fifth time and was freshly amazed by how great it is.
Featherz Dad: was Troopers really that unorthodox? it seemed pretty consistent with the way the adult men in my neighborhood had talked about being Pacific war Marines. Reminded me, more than a bit, of BATTLE CRY
AGplusone: [Jim G will join us as soon as he finishes dinner, and Doc4kidz will be back in an hour … both say ‘hi’ for now.]
AGplusone: I thought it was. There’s so much “keep your head down … don’t volunteer” that a kid seventeen gets it was useful to have a little different view.
Pnther5o5: Trooper, Moon… Starman Jones and CotG strangely enough.
Featherz Dad: OK, I always thought that kind of thinking was non-orthodox.
Featherz Dad: kinda hip non-orthodox
NSTAFL: Has anyone on the group done military service? If yes, do you think Heinlein got it right or was he way off the mark?
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
Featherz Dad: He was closer to my ‘sperience than Haldeman and H and I served in the same army and time
Pnther5o5: I had a first sergeant, vietnam LRRP, supertrooper the whole bit.
AGplusone: I tyhink we all have except Will Geearimoe who just entered the room.
Pnther5o5: He felt that ST should be required reading in Basic.
Pnther5o5: And I’m aware of more than one school that has or does require it as reading. Lbgriffith has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Geeairmoe … slightly different room name now.
Featherz Dad: I read it before I joined. It helped me get through basic without getting all shook up
AGplusone: Hi, LB LTNC
Pnther5o5: It was one of the “recommended” books for C&GSC.
SAcademy: 3.5 years in the Navy
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: Hi – I must have been in the wrong wroom.
Pnther5o5: 4 yrs 82nd Airborne. When the recruiter said “but I can get you electronics or anything” I said “I wanna be where the rubber meets the road.” So I went Infantry. Sound familiar?
AGplusone: The room differs just slightly in name now the word “chat” is added to it.
dwrighsr: There was a slight name change to the room and the old shortcuts will have to be deleted and new ones made.
AGplusone: We’re going to make you a radio operator whether you want it or not, so guess what’s in an A-Team … where I eventually ended up?
NSTAFL: It’s interesting to talk to vets. In Canada, we haven’t had a draft since WWII or thereabouts so meeting military folks is relatively rare.
AGplusone: TWO*count ’em*TWO radio operators, VEG
dwrighsr: Catching up. 3 years in the Army Security Agency. I learned Russian for that. hush, hush,
TAWN3 has left the room.
Featherz Dad: I gave my three choices, all combat arms, and I got told “you could take something else you know.” I said why would I join the Army to work in an office.
Featherz Dad: Boy, I didn’t want Artillery though. I did like their unofficial motto:
Featherz Dad: Artillery, a touch of class in what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl
geeairmoe2 has left the room.
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
Featherz Dad: alergic to trigenometry
NSTAFL: Did you ever meet an Artillery vet who still had any hearing left after a tour? 🙂
Featherz Dad: One of my problems with it. Trig was the other
AGplusone: The attitude that RAH gave me in Starship Troopers was do your best … my families always been wartime service … and enlisted … I looked at Rico and when the time came and they said to me, why don’t you go to OCS, although you’ll have to take some more time on active duty, I said, OKay.
Featherz Dad: Not that we didn’t get noisy in armored cav.
AGplusone: ” … I mean, don’t you have to have college to be an officer?” answer: No.
AGplusone: So I went and later went to college. I’m the first college graduate on my mother’s side of the family
Featherz Dad: that helped me decide on OCS and I didn;t have to do the extra time.Some overanxious kid bumped my leg with an APC at Ft. Knox and I was out after just over two years.
dwrighsr: I got through Basic and they said OCS? and I said no way. 6 more months of worse than I just got through and have to extend for 2 more years on top of that. Sorry
NSTAFL: In the real world, how common is it for a trooper or non-com to become an officer?
AGplusone: But, as I said: ‘if RAH has Rico agree to go, why don’t I?’
AGplusone: Not very.
AGplusone: Although many non-coms have the opportunity offered at one point or another.
NitroPress has entered the room.
TAWN3 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Jim
AGplusone: WB Tawn
TAWN3: I got kicked
dwrighsr: ST did play an important role in getting me through Basic. Showed me what a ‘real’ army should be like.
NitroPress: Hello, all.
Featherz Dad: There was an E-7 in my basic training cadre who had been a MAJOR in Korea and would revert on retirement but didn’t have enough education to keep the job
Featherz Dad: Hi, Jim
AGplusone: One day in Germany, we retired two Captains … the first sergeant of A Troop and the first sergeant of C Troop.
NSTAFL: Wow, a major back in the ranks? Interesting….
AGplusone: Same exact thing, Will.
dwrighsr: An old high school friend’s father was in the same fix. Was a major in Korea. but had to finish out his 20 or whatever as a sergeant. Retired as a Major.
Featherz Dad: Saw a PFC in a retirement list once. Must have had a lot of trouble in HIS career.
NitroPress: Well, today’s been interesting. It’s reported that Bill P. and I got written up in the July Locus editorial. Haven’t been able to find a copy locally to confirm, though.
AGplusone: there was a Master Sergeant (Post Sgt Maj) in France. He was full bird, CE … and retired as it.
Featherz Dad: Would they have retired Custer as a Bridadier or as a LT.Col. if he had lived and never advanced?
dwrighsr: A lot of the billets for officers dried up after Korea and a lot of the career people had to finish anyway they could.
Featherz Dad: I knew a helicopter pilot who was a warrant and would not TAKE a commission because he was afraid that they would make him give people orders
NSTAFL: I have often seen RAH referred to as retired Rear Admiral but I saw something today that said he was a Lieutenant j.g.? Anybody know the full story on that?
TAWN3: I’ve seen a retired LTCOL as an e-5, to collect points.
Fldax has entered the room.
SAcademy: He was retired as a J. G.
NitroPress: The “retired admiral” story is a faux alternate history take by Damon Knight, in the intro to The Past Through Tomorrow.
dwrighsr: I think that they are probably confusing the real Heinlein with David Lamb in TEFL
NitroPress: It was repeated by Leon Stover in the intro to his book.
AGplusone: Both of the above …
AGplusone: Hi, Laurie!
SAcademy: Evening Laurie.
SAcademy: I told them about your four cats.
Fldax: Two of them are here now!
Featherz Dad: Feather doesn’t LIKE other cats.
TAWN3: RE: J.G.
TAWN3: BTW what is a J.G.?
dwrighsr: Lieutenant Junior Grade
SAcademy: Lieutenant Junior Grade.
Featherz Dad: Anybody read “the Return of ?? proxmire?”
dwrighsr: equivalent to a first lieutenant, army or air force
NitroPress: Or a “James Gifford” 🙂
AGplusone: Okay, everyone … what we were doing was answering the following questions: what’s the most influential Heinlein story on you? Which part? And why? Dave Wright is up next. Alphabetically
TAWN3: Is that like a butter bar?
dwrighsr: you must be going by the first name.
Featherz Dad has left the room.
TAWN3: W is next?
NitroPress: Hard to tell who’s next, with the screen names and all.
DenvToday has entered the room.
AGplusone: Using screen names … <g>
DenvToday: Good evening one and all.
dwrighsr: I would be hard put to say which book had the most influence on me. I can’t even remember for sure which was the first. That was in 1953 and was either Starman Jones or Between Planets. Frankly, they just grew on me every time I read them.
TAWN3: I knew he was the equivalent of a 1st LT but got the J.G mixed up with the Admiral comment above. REALLY threw me!
TAWN3: I don’t know much about the Navy.
AGplusone: What influences you in those two, David?
dwrighsr: I do know that Tunnel had a great influence on my race attitudes.
AGplusone: Okay … GA
Fldax: I believe it’s the same as 2nd lt.
DenvToday: I believe RAH retired as a Lieutenant, j.g. which is equivalent to a first lieutenant in the army.
AGplusone: Ensign is an 0-1, or 2d Lt
Fldax: Yes, it’s a 1st Lt. I wasn’t thinking tight.
geeairmoe2 has left the room.
dwrighsr: I can’t pick out anything else. specifically. As I have repeatedly said, I’m not very analytical and I just enjoyed them all to the point that I kept dreaming of finding new ones up to the last few years ago
Fldax: My Naval officer father would be frowning right now!
Pnther5o5: And on that note I must go get one of the kids ready for bed.
NSTAFL: How did Tunnel affect your racial attitudes? Aside from Caroline, I think everyone was WASP….
Pnther5o5: I’ll leave the light on.
Featherz Dad has entered the room.
DenvToday: Good Pnther. I could use a night light.
AGplusone: ‘kay, John but you’ll be up in a bit … <veg>
geeairmoe2 has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Well, That’s what I thought too and the great relationship between her and Rod got me to thinking a lot. However, Everyone 🙂 is now telling me that Rod was Black. I can accept that intellectually, but I have a hard hard hard time accepting it emotionally.
AGplusone: We don’t know that … NSTAFL … it’s just that RAH never made a big thing of what they were, unless “what they were” applied to their characters.
Featherz Dad: Hi folks, AIM has only dumped me once tonight, so far
DenvToday: Howdy Featherz.
NitroPress: I was told Rod was black by a high authority, who happens to be present. 🙂
AGplusone: Okay, alphabetically, sorta … DenvToday, you’re up … what story most influenced you, and why?
dwrighsr: So was I. But, as I said, intellectually, I can accept it, but emotionally, I have a long way to go.
Featherz Dad: I always thought that he wasn’t but that is because all the Black people I know think about being Black alot and he NEVER seems to.
NSTAFL: What makes you think Rod was black? I never picked up on that….
TAWN3: I checked into that Jim. It said rod’s scar was white. A couple of other things didn’t pan out either. I think she was r=wrong.
TAWN3: I’m talking about Jane
TAWN3: Ypu obviously mean someone else <g>, sorry.
Featherz Dad: Jane WRONG!! I suppose it COULD happen
NitroPress: I think the clues add up– better than they do for Colin Campbell.
dwrighsr: The only thing for sure in the book that indicates it in any way that I know of is the reference to Helen looking like Caroline. But I always knew that a white person could look like a black person, so I didn’t give that much thought
AGplusone: Caroline says Roddy reminds her of her little brother … the religion is middle eastern … dark tan arm … RAH’s habit of slipping curve balls in at you … Rico’s a Filipino, Colin’s black, maybe Eunice is black, maybe she’s white …
Featherz Dad: Actually, I thought that was odd when I read it but now I know an older salt and pepper couple who look like each other
NSTAFL: Well, I see I haven’t been picking up the subtle cues as well as I thought….
Lenjazz has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Religion doesn’t indicate much. It came out of Persia, not Africa and they were converts anyway.
AGplusone: And ‘reminds’ could easily be just that … in character …
AGplusone: Hi, Len, welcome …
Lenjazz: Hi everyone…
AGplusone: Ready to go, Denv?
Featherz Dad: I think the verdict ‘from the book’ would have to be inconclusive
Fldax: Hi, Len
Featherz Dad: But I HAVE to be confused because MerFilly isn’t HERE to be confused
AGplusone: What we’re doing is going around the room alphabetically and saying what RAH story most influenced each of us personally and why.
Featherz Dad: someone has to do it.
dwrighsr: Hey, he had a habit of leaving the blanks open for the reader to fill in.
dwrighsr: could be the same here, with a couple of those curve balls thrown in to measure.
AGplusone: I always felt the teenagers were generic, so any boy could imagine himself in their shoes.
dwrighsr: ..for measure..
AGplusone: and try to measure up to them …
DenvToday: It’s been many years since I’ve read it, but wasn’t the uncle in Podkayne of Mars black? And wasn’t it about halfway through the book before we found that out?
dwrighsr: I seem to recall that he had a lot of Maori blood
AGplusone: True …
NSTAFL: That rings a bell…
Featherz Dad: I thought he had Maori ancestors, Pollynessian, not Black
DenvToday: You could be right. I can’t specifically remember.
AGplusone: Maori is dark … some might call it ‘black’ … the EnZeds don’t necessarily, but …. note Friday.
Featherz Dad: black they may well be but not Black
NSTAFL: Would a black person consider a Maori or someone from India “black”? I doubt it, even though the colouring can be similar.
Dehede011 has entered the room.
Dehede011: Evening everyone. Happy birthday.
AGplusone: True, but a person from the north of India does consider a person from the south ‘black’ and the castes reflect it.
dwrighsr: Anyone remember Poul Anderson’s ‘There will be time’ in which he has a number of definitions of different races, each with the admonition ‘not to be confused with brown, … etc’
Lenjazz: In less sensitive times, anyone not “white” was “colored.” In the musical South Pacific, it is clear islanders were considered not white.
AGplusone: Evenin’ Ron. Welcome. We’re going round the room telling each other what RAH story most influenced ea other and why?
Featherz Dad: And Maqujohns (sp) call Sicilians black but they don’;t mean racially African
SAcademy: Have to leave, sorry. Bad night last night. Nite all.
SAcademy has left the room. Lbgriffith has left the room.
AGplusone: G’night, SA …
dwrighsr: Good night. Get some rest.
DenvToday: I remember how sly RAH was in letting us have our preconceptions about the uncle, the let us know well into the story about his race. This must have been especially powerful 40 years ago.
Dehede011: For me it was GULF hands down but followed close enough by TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE.
Fldax: Good night, SA
TAWN3: Nowadays, activists want to include all “non whites” as “blacks” for AA purposes.
AGplusone: Calabrese (my grandfather) calls Sicilians black … (and he meant it! j/k) …
NSTAFL: Apparently, the Soviet troops in Afghanistan routinely referred to the Afghanis as “black asses” – sorry for the language.
NitroPress: Would anyone care to see the new NitroPress promotional T-shirt for RAH:ARC?
TAWN3: Good night SA
AGplusone: give us the link Jim <g>
DenvToday: By the way, the natives in South Pacific were indeed black. They were Micronesians, not Polynesians. This was changed for the stage and movie productions. Being “Hawaiian-looking” was more acceptable than being black.
Featherz Dad: but Maori WERE Poly not micro
Lenjazz: Very nice shirt.
NitroPress: Negroid black, or Australian aborigine (Caucasian) black?
AGplusone: Isn’t doesn’t make much difference to those prepared to discriminate, does it?
NSTAFL: Nice shirt!
DenvToday: Very true, David.
Lenjazz: I think the line in the song goes “…you have to be taught to hate.”
NitroPress: Just curious.
Dehede011: And even that doesn’t work, Lenjazz.
Pnther5o5: Uh, actually, there are some arguments about that.
NitroPress: I don’t believe there’s any Negroid races in the Pacific, are there? The Aussie aborigines are what’s usually termed “Caucasian” despite their very dark skin.
NSTAFL: I think most people are simply uncomfortable with anyone who seems different. Things like skin colour are obvious triggers for discomfort but some people will be afraid of you just because you have a weird hair style, even if you look just like them.
Pnther5o5: Humans are born with hate.
Pnther5o5: We have to be taught _what_ to hate.
NitroPress: No they’re not.
DenvToday: Yep Lenj. It’s especially ironic considering that prejudices had them change the race that was originally in Michener’s book.
Pnther5o5: Yes, they are.
NitroPress: No, they’re not. PPOR.
NitroPress: Provide Proof Or Retract.
LibertarianBill has entered the room.
Pnther5o5: There are some very good studies that prove that humans, especially human males, are born territorial and aggressive.
NitroPress: Hide! The Libertarians are here!
Pnther5o5: Both of these lead to hatred.
NitroPress: Name one.
DenvToday: Hello Bill.
Featherz Dad: I was already HERE
LibertarianBill: We Libertarians are everywhere!!!!
Dehede011: I was raised in the south during the heyday of JIM CROW. Then I came North and found prejudice was just as strong but all the rules were upside down. I concluded both the north and the south had to be dead wrong.
dwrighsr: Territorial and aggressive don’t add up to hate.
LibertarianBill: Howdy folks
Featherz Dad: So are we libertarians
DenvToday: Nitro, one has been here all the time (well…as long as I’ve been here).
AGplusone: All four Bill’s tonight! (as soon as Gee’s ISP gets him back on …)
geeairmoe2: Gee is here.
dwrighsr: Non sequitor. Anything may lead to anything, but doesn’t mean that it HAS to
LibertarianBill: Post no bills …
NitroPress: So who gets stuck with the Bill? 🙂
DenvToday: Dehe, you’ve seen quite a lot.
LibertarianBill: yuck yuck Nitro …
Featherz Dad: It is my will to be Will to keep the confusion to a dull roar
LibertarianBill: Nitro … you have to be Gifford …
dwrighsr: David wright here
NitroPress: What? Me? Never!
Pnther5o5: Go look up a study of a child that was castrated at 7mos IIRC. His family was convinced to raise him as a “girl.” And he responded by wanting to play with guns. He ended up very screwed up until he finally was told “you’re a guy.” He got into fights, was aggressive and territorial.
TAWN3: Good shirt
Pnther5o5: There have been others.
dwrighsr: Either he is Gifford or a shill Gifford has hired to pump up his sales 🙂
LibertarianBill: BTW, I have been meaning to ask you … what is this thing you have for Virginia Madsen ?
NitroPress: One case, not necessarily definitive.
NitroPress: It’s me.
NitroPress: Whaddya mean, “thing”?
LibertarianBill: Well, I think she is hot too, but I don’t have a web site devoted to her …
Pnther5o5: Instances of aggression and territoriality are found in every human culture, in every archaeological dig that show anything about social conditions.
DenvToday: Pnther, interesting. The “nature vs. nurture” argument isn’t really an argument with parents. They see that nature has provided most male/famale differences.
dwrighsr: Repeat aggressive and territorial do not necessarily lead to hate. Hate
NitroPress: I don’t think that you can equate territorialism and such with “hate.” Not equivalents. Not necessarily even on hte same side of the emotional coin.
DenvToday: Pnther, it’s part of human nature. And it always will be.
Pnther5o5: Aggression, territoriality, cannibalism and inter-species combat are found in all the chimpanzee species which we are closest to genetically and socially.
Pnther5o5: It is when it is loosed from the bonds of morality and ethics that it becomes destructive.
LibertarianBill: IT’s a rerun, NSTAFL. The damn show’s been no good since Clooney left anyway.
NitroPress: TV is more important than chat? Hmph. Now I know why I don’t watch it.
dwrighsr: I agree. IMHO, hate is associated with individuals who are unsure of themselves and afraid. They may show aggression, but it is a false front. Can’t prove it, just from what I’ve seen in my own experience.
TAWN3: Anecdotal John
AGplusone: Okay, ladies … back to subject please … Denv, anything else on what was the most important story, if any, and how it influenced you?
LibertarianBill: Hey … can I get into other chat rooms from here? Or do I need an invite, since I am not a member fo AOL?
AGplusone: If not … alphasortabetically … BPRAL, you’re up if you don’t mind.
LibertarianBill: Most import RAH story or the most meaningful … hmmmm ….
DenvToday: AG, I suppose my first was the best. I was just a kid when I read TMIAHM. I was hooked for life.
AGplusone: No, you can start your own, Bill.
AGplusone: What most influenced you?
NitroPress: Libertarians are barred from most chat rooms on the grounds that they won’t cooperate.
AGplusone: About “Moon” …
LibertarianBill: My first Heinlien was Friday …
DenvToday: I loved the freedom of the characters. They wanted to get on with their lives, and to heck with other people trying to dominate them. I loved the Loonies.
AGplusone: And that is very ‘libertarian’ isn’t it, you all?
BPRAL22169: I’ve got a severe problem answering that. As I often say when a new topic is announced: that’s one of my favorite stories. And most of them are.
TAWN3: Geez people, most animals are teritorial. I was watching PBS the Nature of sex last wekk, thet were showing –wasp–, repeat, wasp, territorial protection. So, do wasps hate other wasps?!!!!
DenvToday: I also loved the smart-ass dialogue. It was heady stuff for a kid who was 8 or 9.
LibertarianBill: And I bought it because it had a hot babe with cleavage on the cover
NitroPress: No, WASPs hate all minorities. 🙂
BPRAL22169: But Starman Jones was one of the first I read, and I would say that has influenced me profoundly — and TEFL and Stranger.
DenvToday: Dave, yes it is. It’s almost a blueprint on how to conduct a libertarian revolution.
LibertarianBill: I woduld have to say Stranger did NOT have a pronounced influence on me …
AGplusone: What in Starman Jones … (isn’t it? I love to consider all four of the revolutions together)
DenvToday: Strangely, SIATS is one of my least-favorite of his novels.
BPRAL22169: TMIAHM I like a lot, but it was more “intellectual” in its influence, rather than bildung for me.
DenvToday: Um..SIAST, I meant.
DenvToday: My typing lately. Sheesh.
AGplusone: There’s a lot of pieces to consider in SiaSL … ‘
NitroPress: Sorry; I *LOATHE* those who admire Moon as some sort of ideal
LibertarianBill has left the room.
AGplusone: Tell us why then, Jim.
BPRAL22169: Again, that’s hard to answer because it’s everything about the book — the pragmatic attitudes of Sam; the way Max looks at the world and analyzses it and then puts the analysis away and enjoys it esthetically.
DenvToday: Nitro, I certainly appreciate being loathed. Thanks.
BPRAL22169: The values of the characters and how Max learns to be himself.
NitroPress: Because the perfect Libertarian revolution only succeeds, and could only succeed, with not only a dictatorship, but a hidden dictatorship.
DenvToday: Why don’t you make a list of all ideas you consider loathesome?
AGplusone: Sam is the archetype isn’t he? Of the tragic hero …
NitroPress: It’s out-and-out totalitarianism.
dwrighsr: Except that the ‘dictator’ voluntarily, perhaps, withdraws and leaves it to the rest of them.
DenvToday: lol Nitro. 180 degrees the opposite. But I’m impressed by your certainty.
AGplusone: But that’s the big “L” libertarian impression, isn’t it, Jim.
LibertarianBill has entered the room.
AGplusone: Little ‘l’ just wants to be left alone as much as possible.
NitroPress: So the end justifies the means?
LibertarianBill: freekin’ AOL …. grr
BPRAL22169: I think he got that from the American Revolution, rather than from libertarian notions specifically — the idea that a small coterie of dedicated people have to put one over on the mass of people in order for them to achieve their own best interests.
DenvToday: Good point, Bpral.
BPRAL22169: “Sit down, john! Sit down, john! For god’s sake, John, sit down!”
Lenjazz: Well put BPRAL
NitroPress: So a cabal of three people, using near-total control of their countrymen’s lives, manipulating it to ends they think are appropriate, is the
AGplusone: Much like the cabal in “If This Goes On …”
DenvToday: “Sombody open up a window!”
BPRAL22169: Not an “ideal” Jim — a possibility.
AGplusone: Don’t think that’s what anyone said …
LibertarianBill: I read “moon” when I was in college … and was very much a campus leftist. Any libertarian influence it had on me was gradual and cummulative …
NitroPress: But that small coterie had no power except that the master switch for life on Luna fell into their hands.
DenvToday: No Nitro. The absence of oppressive government was and is the ideal.
BPRAL22169: but that kind of plangent irony is very heinleinian.
AGplusone: I think you’re fighting straw men, Jim.
NitroPress: So one oppressive government was replaced with another. So?
Lenjazz: …benevolent oppression.
AGplusone: I think what Denv just said is the ideal that we all would agree is little “l” libertarian …
NitroPress: No, I think Libertarians *are* straw men. What they want is for themselves to be left alone, no matter what the cost to society and others at large.
BPRAL22169: And the irony fits in with Heinlein’s “white brotherhood” secret societies.
LibertarianBill: The “cabal” didn’t so much ferment the revolution as much as they lead it. The seeds were there. The lousy government that had enslaved the government caused the revolution.
Dehede011: Nitro, could you tell me what the oppression of the new government consisted of
BPRAL22169: And the “benevolent oppression,” though I don’t agree with the term, reminds me much of LL’s Boondock.
AGplusone: Why he kills Mike is to keep that dictator from playing bad guy if he gets bored was always my feeling … it was necessary to kill Mike.
dwrighsr: But, if they hadn’t, it meant total destruction in a very short time, remember. besides there was no dictatorship at the end. They had ‘democracy’ and it didn’t take long for it to get screwed up.
DenvToday: Nitro, you’re very certain for someone who obviously doesn’t understand libertarian philosophy. It’s not anarchy.
BPRAL22169: That’s an instance where Heinlein defined a special archos.
AGplusone: Define ‘special archos’ please.
NitroPress: Deus ex machina. (When he ex’ed the machina.)
LibertarianBill: Boondock was hardly oppression in any real sense. It was governed by ignoring problem in the hope they woduld go away … i.e. letting individuals take care of their own problems.
NitroPress: I never said it was anarchy. It just doesn’t work.
AGplusone: ax’ed the machina … <lousy puns are everywhere>
dwrighsr: Actually, a neat reversal, now that I think of it.. Thanks jim
NitroPress: No, Boondock is governed by making sure it doesn’t bother the Long family.
Dehede011: I still want to know what the new government did to oppress anyone.
DenvToday: dwrighsr, absolutely. That’s why Mannie left for greener pastures.
AGplusone: Flim-flammed them for starters.
geeairmoe2: One thing I took from TMIAHM is that the ‘local’ represenative on behalf of the absentee owners (like the Warden) tend to be corrupt, power hungry jerks. The local leaders on behalf of the Crown appeared that way in the Colonies.
NitroPress: I think Asimov’s assessment of Heinlein’s libertarianism is accurate: “You can have the freedom to starve, and I can have the freedom to grow rich.”
LibertarianBill: well folks, there are two kinds of libertarians …. that is the problem with the LP today.
AGplusone: ‘splain, Lib Bill, please?
BPRAL22169: Oh, are there any libertarians in the LP these days?
LibertarianBill: Ther first kind of Libertarian is the kind who is intellectually opposed to any form of government. L. Neil Smith is one of those.
TAWN3: David, how is flim flamming them “oppressing them”
DenvToday: Dehe, the new Loonie government was aping the Earth government. They started forming committees and setting up nice cozy government. It wasn’t that bad when Mannie leaves, but just give them ten years.
AGplusone: [wait, Tawn, and I’ll answer]
LibertarianBill: I am the kind of Libertarian who simply wants to do anything practicle to make the government of tomorrow less oppressive than the government of today.
LibertarianBill: I know government is necessary ….
BPRAL22169: People do tend to think within the boxes, no matter how stupid the boxes are.
LibertarianBill: Some Libertarians refuse to admit this is the case.
Dehede011: Then you are saying we have no right to throw off an oppressive government unless we form one that is perfectly ideal in all respects?
DenvToday: Bill, Smith has written some good novels. Pallas and The Probability Broach come to mind.
NitroPress: And government is necessary in proportion to the population and complexity of the society.
LibertarianBill: I love L. Neil Smith, don’t get me wrong. …..
Lenjazz: Okay…benevolent oppression was an unfortunate choice of words…RAH would have said benevolent dictatorship. Some would argue any dictatorship is oppressive.
BPRAL22169: No, fraid you’re in a dumb box, guys.
LibertarianBill: Not directly proportional, Nitro.
NitroPress: An ad hoc, Jeffersonian government is not able to run a country of this size and complexity.
LibertarianBill: You are probably right, uinfortunately.
AGplusone: … it’s just that as you’ve defined him (and I don’t know him at all) he sounds like a turn of the Century anarchist.
DenvToday: Dehe, Heinlein’s point was that most revolutions–no matter how well-intentioned at the start–usually just wind up being the same thing as they replaced.
LibertarianBill: But the government we have NOW is too big and takes up roles it does not have to, despite the size of the US.
BPRAL22169: Complexity theory suggests the larger a system the more stable it is without exterior-applied ‘controls’
TAWN3: Jim! HUH?
Dehede011: But we get a breathing space in between?
NitroPress: There is no way for the number of human, corporate, techological and legal entities that exist today to be governed by a tiny, simple government.
dwrighsr: Why not?
Lenjazz: Not to mention the illegal entities.
BPRAL22169: Ok – how was the US in 1830 as bad as the English government in 1776?
DenvToday: Lenj, Thomas Jefferson said that the perfect form of government was a benevolent dictatorship, tempered by the ocassional assassination.
LibertarianBill: Again, I am not talking tiny … I am talking about tinier than we have now.
AGplusone: Yes, maybe, little gilden, not golden ages …
NitroPress: What most libertarians of my acquaintance have objected to is having *their* toes stepped on by some law for the common good.
Dehede011: Such as?
NitroPress: So which part of the current government do you eliminate? The parts YOU don’t need?
LibertarianBill: Yeah, I encounter those too, Nitro …
Lenjazz: Uh…didn’t realize I was coming across as disagreeing with a benevolent dictatorship. That is not the case at all.
LibertarianBill: They are not real libertarians ….
BPRAL22169: The whose-ox-is-gored are in every organization.
DenvToday: Nitro, who defines the common good? If it’s 51% of the population, then 49% feel they’re living under oppression.
NitroPress: But Libertarianism seems to be near 100% of that type. IMHO.
LibertarianBill: just like most conservatives are not real conservates …. they favor taxing othe rpeople, but not themselves.
BPRAL22169: I think the minarchist defines the minimum basic ideas it takes to be a libertarian.
LibertarianBill: No, they are mearly the loudest.
NitroPress: Smog laws, for example. I have a friend who is a raging Libertarian because *she couldn’t bring her noncompliant vehicle into California*.
AGplusone: Caesar Augustus was a benevolent dictator, and Rome was in a Golden Age … of course if you lived across the Rhine and killed his legions in the Tentenburger Forest … then …
Featherz Dad: And the government we have in this country does not near justify a libertarian revolution. Luna in MOON was in quite a different situation.
DenvToday: Lenj, if you’ll remember Time Enough for Love, Ira (Weatherall? It’s been a long time) is just such a benevolent dictator. It works in Heinlein’s world, but I’d never want to live under one.
Featherz Dad: I was just celebrating RAHs b’day in a way of which he would approve
NitroPress: Exactly. However, I don’t think the revolution in Moon was libertarian in anything but public facade.
AGplusone: Luna in Moon was a classic penal colony … perhaps like Georgia in 1775?
NitroPress: What’s that, Featherz?
LibertarianBill: Well, I am a libertarian opposed to anti-drug laws, but when I see someone I suspect to be a drug dealler, I wistfully findmyself wishing to call the cops and demand they haul the guy away on my say-so alone.
LibertarianBill: I have a question:
BPRAL22169: You may accuse yourself of thought-crimes. It’s what you act on that counts.
AGplusone: ‘honesty’ which gets me to my answer, Tawn. Lying to me is oppression …
LibertarianBill: In To Sail Beyond the Sunset …
NitroPress: Libertarians seem to have a bad case of considering any part of the government for which they have no immediate and personal use to be extraneous. Childless people who regard public education as a waste, for example.
Featherz Dad: And when I see someone dealing drugs to adults, I want him to be left the hell alone just like the guys selling cigarettes down the stret.
LibertarianBill: Mama Maureen write of how she is friends with Helen, who performed as Sally Rand … and write that she and Sally swapped lovers ….
BPRAL22169: I have difficulty with what you are saying, Jim, because you’re not talking about anything I can recognize as libertarian.
TAWN3: Jim, have you read “Luna Law” by Feofanov?
LibertarianBill: Yet in real life, Heinlein and Sally Rand were classmates and friend s….
AGplusone: Or Moe, the friendly bartender in the Simpsons …
dwrighsr: Having had children in public schools, I would agree, it *is* a waste.
Lenjazz: DenvToday, I am not very sure what we have now works very well either.
DenvToday: Bpral, he hasn’t got his facts down.
LibertarianBill: Is there something goin on between the lines here re: RAh and Sally?
Featherz Dad: He is STILL talking about an obsession of his with “libertarians” I have never met.
LibertarianBill: kind of a personal question, I admit.
BPRAL22169: That’s kind of what I’m saying — I dont hang around with libertarians, but I cannot recognize them in what Jim is talking about.
DenvToday: Lenj, I agree with you there. Would a benevolent dictatorship be preferable to what we have now? Yes!!…but, what if he ceases becoming benevolent?
dwrighsr: I don’t recall that Maureen and Sally swapped lovers. where was that?
BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, there is no evidence on which to base an opinion.
LibertarianBill: Toward the end of Sail …..
BPRAL22169: About Sally Rand, I mean.
geeairmoe2: Most peoples impressions of groups of which they are not a direct part come from the “extremists” who make good media copy.
NitroPress: Sorry, we’ll change the subject. You must hang around with different
Libertarians than I do.
TAWN3: But the guy down the street selling cigarettes isn’t being left alone, much less the smoker of those cigarettes.
Featherz Dad: What we have now works better than most of us would like to admit. However, there are lots of theoretical problems that are avoided because we get better PEOPLE in government and public service than we often deserve.
LibertarianBill: Libertarians tend to be strident because they are pissed off.
Lenjazz: DenvToday, what if she becomes something other than benevolent? Revolution, of course!
LibertarianBill: Once you decide there is nothing good in either party, you abandon their ideas.
Fldax: I must say good night. Work calls!
AGplusone: Jim, I’m perfectly willing to say that wanting to dispense (where you draw the lines) is a question where a lot of people who call themselves
Libertarian are wacko … but I consider myself aligned with “libertarianism” if that means leave me alone unless it’s necessary.
DenvToday: Yes Nitro, I do. If you’d like libertarian positions, there are several good sites. www.lp.org is one. So is www.mises.org.
Fldax has left the room.
NitroPress: Everyone seems to want smaller government, but no two people can agree on which parts to shrink. Most of the Libertarians I’ve known have very firm ideas, but it comes down to eliminating parts that they personally don’t use/need.
AGplusone: A lot of odd birds move from tent to tent, politically.
Lenjazz: DenvToday…or assasination, per Jeff.
LibertarianBill: It is no wonder a lot of them delve into the fringes of anachy and other “isms”
DenvToday: Nitro, not true. Say what you will about libertarians, we are VERY consistent.
LibertarianBill: Denv; No we are not!
AGplusone: My point … Lib Bill.
Featherz Dad: Moving TOWARD looseness isn’t the same as letting wild anarchy loose in the streets.
LibertarianBill: Our literature is consistent, to some degree ….
DenvToday: Lenj, yep. Good point.
BPRAL22169: The most bargain-basement marginal libertarians hold the idea that government should be restricted to three functions: courts, army, and police.
NitroPress: I haven’t seen it. Much of Libertarian theory that doesn’t fall under my observations seems to fall into the category of wishful thinking.
BPRAL22169: These they consider the “necessary” functions of government. But this does not mean they accept the current functions going under those names.
Featherz Dad: One of the good things about liberal democracy is you can try something and see if it works.
Pnther5o5: As close as I come to libertarianism is “I would like to be able to _personally_ specify where my taxes go.”
BPRAL22169: So they still criticize the bloated military, for example, or the way the policeis handled or the way the courts mete out what passes for justice.
LibertarianBill: right, Nitro … I once listened to someone spout off about doing away will ALL forms of taxation …. this is wishful thinking, but not practical and dangerous, which the average non-Libertarian fears.
AGplusone: Problem is ‘bargain basement’ means different things to different folk. I think folk who poison rivers should be taken out behind a tree and have a .357 excedrin administered …
NitroPress: So micromanagement by the peepul is the answer? Hasn’t worked yet.
Pnther5o5: It would be sort of like a 401k option.
LibertarianBill: This makes the party dangerous in many people’s eyes and works against the movement
DenvToday: Bpral, most libertarians also agree that the majority of civil trials could be handled better by arbitration.
Pnther5o5: You have x percentage that goes to overhead, call it the vig if you will.
TAWN3: I watched Fox interveiwed on the Newshour last night. He was VERY impresive (Lib Party Candidate for pres).
AGplusone: by the police on order of the courts of course.
Pnther5o5: Then you say “I want 30% to go to defense….” etc.
Pnther5o5: Each individual.
BPRAL22169: Yes, that’s a criticism of the way it is handled — a strategic criticsm.
Lenjazz: Tawn, I fear for Fox.
TAWN3: WRONG Bill!
DenvToday: Tawn, it’s too bad you missed the Libertarian Party convention last weekend. It was covered by C-Span.
Featherz Dad: I want all of it to go to ME but I should not be allowed to have that extreme example of what I want, even I see that
LibertarianBill: What is wrong, TAWN
TAWN3: Fed should NOT be doing police, that is local job.
TAWN3: That is the platform.
AGplusone: (only if we do what Dick the Butcher says first, Denv)
BPRAL22169: I think what Jim may be seeing is strategic criticisms but interpreting them as fundamental relativism.
DenvToday: Harry Browne is the presidential candidate. He’s the author of “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World.”
LibertarianBill: I agree with TAWN… we don’t need fed police. that is the states’ job.
NitroPress: So my local city cops should be handling organized crime and drug trafficking? They can’t even handle traffic.
dwrighsr: Fed, states, still govt.
LibertarianBill: Fox is the new president of Mexico.
Featherz Dad: We need public schools but not a dept of ed.
NitroPress: So each school should be free to run itself?
AGplusone: Maybe we need separate traffic cops … on horsies.
BPRAL22169: Jim, organized crime and international drug trafficking as serious social problems were created by the federal government.
NitroPress: We should ban horsies.
LibertarianBill: NOBODy should be handling drug laws. Drugs are a victimless crime. Ciminalizing them only makes them more attractive to youth and increases drug use.
BPRAL22169: Remove the supports, and they will die back to a size that can be handled on a local level.
Featherz Dad: School districts ran schools for a long time.
AGplusone: By Prohibition and by Drug Laws … both ‘sin’ laws passed in the early part of this century.
DenvToday: Nitro, organized crime works hand-in-hand with government. They provide the services for the victimless “crimes” that government restricts.
AGplusone: I agree.
NitroPress: Bill, respectfully: horse poopie. Any way that a group of people can find to use illicit leverage over others, they will.
BPRAL22169: Hmmm. I think we’ve really wandered far afield here.
LibertarianBill: I used to report on local public schools. LOcal boards have virtually no power any more.
Featherz Dad: Hand-in-hand implies volition and maybe corruption. It is actually symbiosis
LibertarianBill: What isn’t mandated by the states is mandated by the feds and it is just getting worse and worse.
DenvToday: lol Bpral. True.
NitroPress: Like what victimless crimes? Protection rackets? Union skimming and manipulation?
Pnther5o5: The “numbers” used to judge education started their sharpest decline _after_ the Dept. Ed. was instituted. We go along fine without it before. Tear down the damned house that Carter built!
BPRAL22169: But the “leverage” of monopoly power which is held and granted by the state, if it doesn’t exist, cannot be wielded.
DenvToday: Go Pnther! I love enthusiasm.
LibertarianBill: NITO, to which Bill are you pooping on?
TAWN3: Geez, 20/20 is airing an in depth report on polyamory relationships while we speak. I have been hearing it out the back of my ear while we chat. It is starting to be interesting, and reminds me of topic, TMIAHM
geeairmoe2: There seems an inconsistency in those who who would suggest the respresatives we send to DC are better able to handle some problems than locally elected officials. Its like we’re geniuses when we pick national leaders, but suddenly become idiots before we throw the switches for our local leaders.
BPRAL22169: And Friday
Featherz Dad: And I don’t know that the FBI, for example, is useless but I also don’t want them having any more power than they need.
LibertarianBill: OK (cause I don’t like to be pooped on)
AGplusone: This is a lovely war … who’s up next alphasortabetically? Dehede …
Pnther5o5: Well, this enthusiasm is done with pointless arguments for the day. Night all.
Pnther5o5 has left the room.
DenvToday: Tawn, Friday goes into detail about group marriages.
BPRAL22169: I believe Jim was observing the horse poopie rather than depositing the horse poopie. am I right?
AGplusone: Darn … I was just changing the subject …
Dehede011: My fav was GULF and later Time enough……..
LibertarianBill: and causual rape and marrying one’s rapist …
AGplusone: Why, Ron?
AGplusone: What impressed you most about them?
LibertarianBill: CASUAL rape, I mean
BPRAL22169: If not I will merely observe that the deposit of horse poopie is the province of a horse’s anatomy. But I am sure I will not be called upon to make such an observation.
TAWN3: They say 60 thousand U.S. polygamous FAMILIES (with kids) in U. S. right now, and growing. I’m kinda surprised, although I know differetn people from various RAH lists who are poly.
Dehede011: I don’t know but it sure it a responsive chord. Besides that is next chats topic.
DenvToday: lol Bpral.
Featherz Dad: That wasn’t casual rape. It was rape by policy. She wouldn’t have blamed him for killing her. It was business.
AGplusone: Jim’s not the only commercial announcement tonight. Ron’s going to lead the chat on Gulf in two weeks.
DenvToday: As I recall, he was protecting his undercover status.
Featherz Dad: I think that she was wierd but I don’t KNOW any artificial persons. She might have been middle-of-the-road.
LibertarianBill: It was one of few scenes in Heinlein that stunk with non-realism, IMHO.
AGplusone: Okay, Feather’s Dad … you’re up. What RAH story and what impressed you most in it?
Featherz Dad: MOON and what impressed me MOST was the subtle and not-so-subtle language details
AGplusone: Howso and how did they impress you with what?
TAWN3: Would have liked to have seen it Denv. However, I am a Reaganite before I am a Libertarian, although much of it I agree with. Rational Anarchy is what I like.
Featherz Dad: Next most was the Looney’s political attitudes which I didn ot think of as liberterain per se
NitroPress: TAWN: Oy.
AGplusone: Are we heading towards Korzipski (never can spell that man’s name) …
DenvToday: Tawn, I think the Libertarian Party would appeal to you. Check it out at www.lp.org.
LibertarianBill: I am not in favor of anarchy. I am in favor of electing the smartest, most honest people we can and letting them run things, but as long as they run them in the open and with a free press.
TAWN3: If Browne is the candidate, who is Fox Denv?
TAWN3: Still catching up.
LibertarianBill: Fox is the president of Mexico.
LibertarianBill: Personally, I favored Gorman. He wanted to win.
AGplusone: Let Feather’s Dad catch us up on his point, everyone, please …
DenvToday: Gorman is a good man. I hope he stays active in the party.
NitroPress: Enough on Libertarianism, eh? I’m running out of Jack Daniel’s.
LibertarianBill: I would have liked Kubby as the VP candidate. It would have made a point.
Featherz Dad: I thought that the Loonies were more pragmatic than Libertarian but still had the ideal of looseness. I don’t really think that the language factors that impressed me can be analysed in this short forum
TAWN3: No JIm. Feds take local money, redistribute it, take a cut off top, give it back to local police. Let local taxes finance local police, and let Fed do FBI type stuff. Right now the Fed is paying local government.
DenvToday: Right Tawn. Vincente (I think that’s his first name) Fox won the election for the PAN party. First time the PRI has been oout since 1929.
TAWN3: Duh duh duh duh duh
LibertarianBill: He could have lit up a joint on national TV and the Secret Service would have shot any Fed who tried to arrest him! LOL
TAWN3: Yes, I know, Fox, Mexico, I meant Brown
NitroPress: And so wealthy local areas get great cops, and inner cities get crappy ones… good solution.
TAWN3: Brown impressed me.
dwrighsr: TMIAH language was a big plus for me. I particularly liked the mixture of various languages.
Lenjazz: Okay folks…ER may not take me away, but DINNER does…I’ll be back…
DenvToday: Tawn, I’m glad. He would carve up Gush and Bore in a debate. Browne is very, very good.
Featherz Dad: I think that it impressed me even more than Clockwork Orange. I did a comparision of the languages in each once
Lenjazz has left the room.
BPRAL22169: Polyamory has been around for some time — Robert Rimmer’s books started appearing in the late 50’s.
NitroPress: Part of government’s function is redistribution of social funding.
DenvToday: Yeah Nitro, I kinda figured you’d think that. Oh well…
dwrighsr: I believe that I have made this point before a number of times, but the language aspects of TMIAH even led me to the unconscious assumption that ‘tanstaafl’ was a real word not an acronym. took me 25 years to make the connection
Featherz Dad: NP., that is arguing that what YOU want is part of the definition.
LibertarianBill: Brown is one of those people who wants to put the final touches on a manifesto for the perfect theoretic Libertarian government, as opposed to rollin up his sleaves and getting dirty to make tomorrow a little bit more
Libertarian that it is today.
DenvToday: dwrighsr, when did you find out about “grok”?
NitroPress: No, not necessarily. FWIW, I probably pay more taxes than anyone else in this group. AFAIK.
LibertarianBill: Yes, to me Moon was a lot more realistic that many of the Master’s other works.
geeairmoe2: I first saw the term “libertarian” long after reading Moon. What I took from it (the novel) was that absentee ownership, even through on-site proxies, is unworkable.
Featherz Dad: And the party running people for Pres is silly. All politicis is local pollitics. Elect some Alderbeasts. Do the gruntwork
NitroPress: I find it amusing that the small-tax-bracket crowd whines the most about misuse of taxes.
DenvToday: Bill, I think you’re wrong. Harry Browne spends long hours every day going after radio, television and print interviews.
LibertarianBill: I could see a society like that existing because I saw parts of it around me …
dwrighsr: ‘grok’ was never a problem, but the non-caps along with the other language threw me off and I never connected even though the definition was right there in front of me
LibertarianBill: That is NOT getting dirty …
LibertarianBill: Brown is more concerned with making a point, rather than working for votes.
LibertarianBill: The two are different.
TAWN3: Alternate arrangements in TMIAHM also Denv
LibertarianBill: The skills are different.
BPRAL22169: The LP has been very unfortunate in its candidates.
DenvToday: If you say so, but I disagree. Browne has been in the trenches for years.
Dehede011: I saw Brown yesterday on PBS and was surprised at how good he was at getting down to earth.
Featherz Dad: NP, I paid more taxes on my poker winnings last year than you will pay on that, admittedly more useful, book. And I don’t object to taxation or the welfare state all that much. It is state intrusion inot folks lives that I object to
DenvToday: Tawn, very true. Also in Time Enough for Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset.
DenvToday: Yep Dehe.
LibertarianBill: Unfortunately, the average LPer would rather have a candidate who is ideologically pure than someone who is mostly libertarian with a legit shot at winning.
Dehede011: For what purpose did RAH introduce polyamory (?) in his novels?
BPRAL22169: Well . . . there is that “mostly” libertarian problem.
DenvToday: Bill, you’re right there. But Reagan was such a person. And the government GREW during his administration.
LibertarianBill: Take Jesse Ventura …. he is much more Libertarian than either Gore of Bush, yet the Libertarian papers are filled with hatred for this man because not EVERYTHING he has done has pleased the LP.
AGplusone: How was it more realistic? In the flaws in the characters, except (and maybe including) Mike Holmes IV?
Featherz Dad has left the room.
Dehede011: Reagan was a new deal democrat and I doubt he ever changed his core.
LibertarianBill: Reagan didn’t abandon the DEMs, the DEMs abandoned what Reagan believed.
Featherz Dad has entered the room.
Dehede011: LibBill, I think that was largely true.
Featherz Dad: damn aim
DenvToday: Dehe, I disagree. I think Reagan really wanted smaller government…yet he still believed government was the answer in social issues.
AGplusone: This is getting boring, guys …
Dehede011: Notice I said “largely true”
dwrighsr: Whenever 2 or 3 are gathered in Heinlein’s name, there will be disagreements
DenvToday: lol That’s for sure.
Featherz Dad: I can have this argument here. I don’t need to go to a Heinlein bday party for it
DenvToday: Which is what makes it fun!
LibertarianBill: welcome back Dad,
AGplusone: Yep, but tonight we’re talking about how RAH personally influenced you, and why?
Dehede011: Where 3 or 4 are gathered in RAH’s name there will also be a fifth.
Featherz Dad: My cat will argue with me better than this
geeairmoe2: That’s because RAH’s readers learn HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
AGplusone: Want to finish your point, Will?
dwrighsr: I could use a fifth. Reminds me of all the talk-talk in TMIAH and NOTB
AGplusone: If so … we’ll listen … if not, Gee is up next.
Featherz Dad: Well, I just realized that RAH never fiddled with language in QUITE that way before MOON or after.
DenvToday: AG, when I was a kid, I looked on RAH as a kind of father figure. It meant a lot to me. As I got older, I realized that we all have feet of clay, but I still liked to think of him as a moral center.
Featherz Dad: But that is about it. who is at bat
AGplusone: What does the ungrammatical language say about Mannie?
Dehede011: That he was unschooled?
AGplusone: Gold is where you find it?
Featherz Dad has left the room.
dwrighsr: By what standard can one call it ungrammatical. It was a mixture of a number of different languages. Which rules should we use
geeairmoe2: Mannie was a repairman, someone who needs to get right to the crux of the matter without flowery elaboration.
AGplusone: A lot have. It’s offsetting. Why did RAH trouble himself to do it that way. Jim’s book observes that the firstr drafts didn’t have that argot … Mannie speaks normally.
geeairmoe2: Economy of effort.
DenvToday: dwrighsr, that was my impression. It seemed to be a mixing of many languages. It also seemed to imply a one-world government on Earth.
LibertarianBill: Job a comedy of errors also influenced me. It helped me feel better about abandoning my religion while still feeling some good aspects about how that influenced my life.
AGplusone: RAH must have had a poinht … (I thinks that’s part of it Denv) …
DenvToday: Yep Dave.
BPRAL22169: Robert James just sent me Charlie Brown’s review/editorial of Jim’s ARC and the Heinlein Journal. let’s see if I can get it in here.
dwrighsr: style of language and grammar are not the same thing. Frankly, the language is what really makes it real for me. I wouldn’t expect a group of convict and convict descendants from different areas of the earth to speak standard english
AGplusone: They’d speak ‘strain’ if that’s was the Ozzies call it.
AGplusone: Pop it in, BPRAL
Dehede011: So was it a dialect in the process of becoming a seperate language.
geeairmoe2: I don’t see Job as anti-religious. Alex keeps his Fatih, and in the end is rewarded with the Heaven of his choosing.
dwrighsr: It was already a ‘language’.
NitroPress: It’s too long, I think, Bill. But *wow*, eh?
BPRAL22169: I consider myself a Heinlein fan and an expert on his writing, as well as having been a personal friend. Heinlein has never gotten the scholarship he deserves. Part of it was deliberate. He did not like to talk about his writing and resented those who tried to interpret it. Now, with the distance of years, it may be possible to give him the studies he deserves.
LibertarianBill: I didn’t say Job was anti religion …
BPRAL22169: Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader’s Companion, listed in this issue, is a start. It isn’t a biography, a bibliography, or a critical assessment, but it contains original material that would benefit all three. The same is true of The Heinlein Journal, a semi-annual
AGplusone: Just like H.L. Mencken’s American Language (a copy of which I bought in a thrift last week for $1)
LibertarianBill: Job says “You want to be religious? Great. Nothing wrong with that. But just keep an open mind.”
BPRAL22169: quasi-academic journal on Heinlein, which has more new material, as well as some critical assessments. (The first five issues are still available for $25.00 total from Bill Patterson, 602 W. Bennett Ave., Wendora, CA 91741, e-mail .)
DenvToday: Great line, Bill.
BPRAL22169: There is some fascinating material put together by Bill Patterson, with corrections by Virginia Heinlein. My only comment on some of the material is that it should be taken with a dram of saline solution. Heinlein was a writer, and not even his own life remained first draft.
LibertarianBill: Menken was a big influence on me, of course. I devoured his “Days” books in college.
BPRAL22169: He was not above dissembling, if not outright fibs, on his background, his writing, and even his beliefs — all marks of a great storyteller, like his hero, Mark Twain.”
AGplusone: And watch out for the same sort of tyrannies anything else can include, eh, LibBill?
BPRAL22169: The American Language for $1????? Color me green with envy!
DenvToday: Bpral, I’m impressed. I didn’t realize you knew RAH.
geeairmoe2: Isn’t that GLENDORA, CA, BPRAL?
LibertarianBill: Yes, AG
BPRAL22169: yes, it is. It’s also BPRAL22169 not 222169.
BPRAL22169: I knew him only slightly — corresponded twice, met him once.
AGplusone: too many two-tos (tutus?)
AGplusone: (I prefer the pink ones when I dance, myself)
NitroPress: Skinny ballerinas wear one-one’s.
LibertarianBill: Anorexic dancers wsear half-and-half, I suppose.
DenvToday: I lived 45 minutes away from him when I was a kid…but it was before I knew who he was.
LibertarianBill: But I wouldn’t wank to milk a joke
AGplusone: Beautiful review … one thing I wanted to bring up was what you, Ginny, Tawn and FldAx are cooking up, Bill, re the Heinlein Society.
AGplusone: What to tell us a little about it, please, BPRAL?
TAWN3: Brown is calling him a friend.
DenvToday: lol Nitro. Just saw that.
LibertarianBill: Brown says he was a friend of Heinlein?
DenvToday: You too Bill.
TAWN3: Anorexic dancers should drink half and half you mean
LibertarianBill: I am sorry, anyone who tells puns like that deserves to get creamed.
BPRAL22169: About two years ago, I held an organizational meeting for The Heinlein Society at Westercon in San Diego. There were about 50 people; we discussed about 8 different projects to promote RAH and his works. And then I got sucked into several different things that meant I couldn’t do the necessary followup work.
BPRAL22169: Laurie – Fldax — has volunteered to help with that followup work, so she is acting as the administrator for the society. We’re making the first moves to get it in operation right now. tawn3 is also on this central cell.
LibertarianBill: Lord … it is almost 10 p.m. here ….
BPRAL22169: The main things we are working on are — a letter to the potential members; a website, and incorpoation. have I left out anything important, Tawn?
LibertarianBill: I have to get up and milk the cows tomorrow …:-(
Doc4Kidz has entered the room.
DocJam00 has entered the room.
DenvToday: You’re leaving, Bill?
LibertarianBill: hey … a paradox ….
BPRAL22169: That was very fast.
LibertarianBill: or a pair o’ docs
TAWN3: Bunch, but that is what is important for now I think
AGplusone: Evenin’ Doc, Evenin’ Doc … sounds like David and Ricky just came in the room.
Doc4Kidz: that’s what my mom calls my sis and me
DenvToday: Howdy Docs
Doc4Kidz: Hi all
TAWN3: Rates are set, 15 and 35
LibertarianBill: naw … I will stay a while … I am in training tomorrow, so I can sleep at work for once.
Doc4Kidz: the shortcut worked just fine
DenvToday: Good 🙂
AGplusone: Are you going to be able to push something out to the Chicom folk Bill?
BPRAL22169: We’re working on it. There will be something there, but I can’t say exactly what yet.
TAWN3: I’ll have a copy of the app at ConVergence this weekend.
LibertarianBill: <——- keeps hearing his name mentioned…. quite annoying ..;-)
NitroPress: So let’s just commandeer a room, Bill.
geeairmoe2: When is the convention?
LibertarianBill: You and me in a room, Nitro? —- you better smale when you say that pardner …
LibertarianBill: smile, I mean
NitroPress: Sigh. BPRAL Bill, I meant.
LibertarianBill: I know kidding … sheesh 11
BPRAL22169: End of August, beginning of September.
NitroPress: ChiCon is Labor Day weekend.
BPRAL22169: We may have to do that.
BPRAL22169: The programming people don’t seem too responsive to me. I’m just not important enough, I guess.
NitroPress: Bust some stupid rules committee over the haid, toss ’em out, set up the Revolution.
NitroPress: Me, either. So far, at least.
Dehede011: Is that the Chicago effect, BPRAL?
AGplusone has left the room.
Dehede011: Let me see if I can find someone to help you. My chances are 1 in 4.
NitroPress: Is there a Heinlein thread in the room?
Bleys1959 has entered the room.
LibertarianBill: Heinlein? Who he? 😉
LibertarianBill: = (
dwrighsr: Anybody else want to talk about what book/story of RAH’s most influenced them?
geeairmoe2: I’ll sew some oats to get a thread going.
geeairmoe2: My RAH influence was Tunnel. I liked the idea of a “gate” instantaly transporting one to a different place.
LibertarianBill: I was discussing JOb and how it helped me make up my mind to leave the church I was attending.
Bleys1959: Time Enough for Love has always been my favorite read
LibertarianBill: It was Church of the Nazarene … a conservative Wesleyan sect
Doc4Kidz: I know I just arrived in the room, but for me it was Trooper. I still keep several copies because I always seem to have one out on loan.
Doc4Kidz: or two
AGplusone has entered the room.
DenvToday: Bill, Job certainly give you lots to consider. It’s always seemed very funny to me.
jleebeane has entered the room.
LibertarianBill: I started reading Heinlein in college … Moon, Troopers, Red Planet. I was a liberal Democrat and collegiate peacenik …
BPRAL22169: That, paradoxically, was the first book I didn’t think was addressed directly to me.
LibertarianBill: I was scandalized by the opinions and thought I was supposed to oppose … yet I concede now I unconsiously agreed with them …
TAWN3: Which Bill?
Dehede011: LibBill that was the affect that Rand’s Atlas…….. had on me.
LibertarianBill: Red Planet was pro gun …. I was supposed to favor gun control. All my fellow liberals did. They were evil you see …
LibertarianBill: The Rand McNally Atlas ?
LibertarianBill: hee hee
Doc4Kidz: Dehede, Atlas Shrugged is the other book I feel that strongly about
LibertarianBill: I have a confession ,…
BPRAL22169: Feel strongly, how?
LibertarianBill: I have never read anything my Rand …
Doc4Kidz: I also have several loaner copies of that one!
geeairmoe2: Another non-Rand reader here.
dwrighsr: Me neither. That is no Rand
BPRAL22169: My mother sat all 7 of us down around a table one evening and read us Francisco’s money speech.
jleebeane: i haven’t read much heilein (yet) but ayn rand is an author i can discuss
jleebeane: wow, that’s a great mom 🙂
BPRAL22169: I will always honor her for that.
LibertarianBill: Troopers showed war as dirty and unglamous, yet filled with the potential for honor and duty. But wasn’;t I supposed to be opposed to all war and vilify those who practiced it?
LibertarianBill has left the room.
dwrighsr: The Liberal Police *got* him :::
LibertarianBill has entered the room.
LibertarianBill: Gee thanks!!!
NitroPress: Libertarians come and go as they please.
Dehede011: Happy AOL LibBill
TAWN3: AOL works for me.
LibertarianBill: Yet one of the reasons I bash AOL whenever possible … grr
Doc4Kidz: then don’t use it , Bill!
TAWN3: And I bash it sometimes.
LibertarianBill: I have that choice …
NitroPress: You can’t spell A—ol- without AOL.
TAWN3: LOLOL Jim
LibertarianBill: I also have the choice to use it … and bash it anyway!
NitroPress: Like most Libertarians. 🙂
Bleys1959: Anyone know how Mrs. H. is doing these days?
LibertarianBill: Well, she sent me e-amil a couple months ago ….
Doc4Kidz: has everyone donated blood???
NitroPress: I cut my finger today.
LibertarianBill: She was responding to something I wrote in defence of her husband’s copyright
TAWN3: eiamil, the porter? How is he Bill, and why did she send him over to you?
Doc4Kidz: doesn’t count, Jim.
NitroPress: I managed to clear off a whole pirate RAH website last week.
LibertarianBill: I still have it in my inbox
TAWN3: Which one Jim?
LibertarianBill: Well, she said whe was V.H. If it was her, I am honored.
LibertarianBill: didn’t want to mention it at the time.
BPRAL22169: I correspond with Mrs. H. regularly, and I can report she has enough energy to put me in the dust.
BPRAL22169: Very vigorous mind.
LibertarianBill: It would have been name dropping
NitroPress: An English professor had a full site of the Russian translations that the estate has been trying to stamp out on Russian sites. I politely pointed out his error, and the site disappeared in an hour.
LibertarianBill: Good for her, BPRAL
TAWN3: Good for you Jim. Does she know this?
LibertarianBill: She’s outlive Lazarus Long!
BPRAL22169: I mentioned I was reading Thomas browne’s Urn-Burialle and she came right out with the Greek name. She could not have seen that in 25 years or more likely 45
LibertarianBill: she’ll outlive
NitroPress: No. I used to let Eleanor Wood know, but it’s pretty low level for EW/VH. Just donating my liter of virtual blood.
LibertarianBill: Damn typos
BPRAL22169: She’s been working on getting those sites down for several months.
LibertarianBill: Whatever loss of income to the estate, however small, is too much.
AGplusone has left the room.
LibertarianBill: Such boorish behavior as steeling copyrighted material must be opposed for the sake of decency!
BPRAL22169: Particular problem with Russian is that since they don’t subscribe to the Int’l copyright law, they consider anything before 1972 in the public domain.
LibertarianBill: stealing. grrrr
dwrighsr: David is having trouble. He couldn’t get back in even though it said that he was already there. he is rebooting to retry.
LibertarianBill: What else can we expect from unreconstructed commies with no sense of privacy and property rights
NitroPress: But why should a Libertarian care? Ain’t your stuff being stolen,
LibertarianBill: Because I benefit from a society that protects copyrights, silly
LibertarianBill: With no copyrights, Heinlein would not have been able to profit from his work.
LibertarianBill: Hence, he woduld have turned to farming, etc. to make a buck.
NitroPress: But you don’t benefit from a society that redistributes taxes for education, police…
LibertarianBill: There is no such think as altruism.
Dehede011: And he wouldn’t have been able to afford to do that work that we love so much.
NitroPress: Preecisely, LBill– typo and all.
dwrighsr: Lets don’t get that started again 🙂 🙂
Bleys1959 has left the room.
LibertarianBill: I do not necessarily believe that the benefits from redistribution outweights the harm, Nitro.
LibertarianBill: Right Dehede
dwrighsr: Any other comment on a work by RAH?
TAWN3: Jim, you mean Redistribute Wealth I believe.
Dehede011: Gentlemen it is time for me to wish you all a good night.
Dehede011: Good night.
dwrighsr: Good night De
geeairmoe2: Gentlemen? Here?
TAWN3: I can’t really pick one book. But perhaps Stranger is it.
Dehede011 has left the room.
LibertarianBill: night …;-)
TAWN3: However, I would say Stranger, ST, MIAHM, TEFL, these all had extreme impacts
TAWN3: COTG did to an extent too.
dwrighsr: I have a theory about favorite books. It has a lot to do with age. Would everyone object to telling your age to see if they confirm with my theory?
LibertarianBill: 37 ….
NitroPress: My first and most influential work was Have Space Suit–Will Travel. I still have that original edition on my shelf.
dwrighsr: What influenced you most about it?
TAWN3: My first RAH was HSWT
TAWN3: in sixth grade
NitroPress: It revolutionized my thinking about education, and self-reliance, and space travel.
TAWN3: from the school library
AGplusone has entered the room.
geeairmoe2: Our birthdays seems close, Jim. 9/23/60
NitroPress: Ides of October for me, same year.
LibertarianBill: <——— 5-23-63
AGplusone: <G>struggled thru the ether … finally.
DenvToday: Sorry, I’m back.
LibertarianBill: Howdy AG …
NitroPress: Too late. We’re all done.
dwrighsr: I am going to have to belay telling my theory, because it’s too fuzzy and I don’t have enough data to work on.
DocJam00 has left the room.
dwrighsr: BTW, I’m 60
Doc4Kidz: sorry, DaveW, I was answering an IM…I;m 45
TAWN3: Sure, now rthat you have our data <g>
LibertarianBill: DW —- fuzzy theories with little data are pefectly allowable in sociology
LibertarianBill: Look as Margaret Meade
AGplusone: Age-sex check? Sounds like AOL … 57 aged male.
dwrighsr: This is a science, not fuzzy studies.
NitroPress: Really? I’m male too!
LibertarianBill: Hey, I am 14 and cute … any overage, balding fat males wanny cyber … tee hee
dwrighsr: Actually, it would be interesting to get more data from the female side, but getting ages might prove troublesome 🙂
LibertarianBill: <—- kidding of course
TAWN3: That belongs in the H. Beam Piper chat BTW
TAWN3: Fuzzy Studies that is.
AGplusone: shucks! Was looking for a 14 year old to cyber with …
NitroPress: There are no females in the e-universe, so us XYs need to get working on that cloning thing.
Doc4Kidz: Men have ages, women have birthdays –(guess who)
LibertarianBill: too late …. Nitro beat you to it.
dwrighsr: except among the People where a woman claims the oldest she can
Lenjazz has entered the room.
NitroPress: Anyone else start with HSSWT?
AGplusone: WB Len
LibertarianBill: The funny think is, I started with Heinlein’s adult stuff when still in high school … didn’t seak out the juveniles till I was out of college.
AGplusone: And hi, JellyBean … what’s your e mail addy. We keep getting returns on what we’ve got …
LibertarianBill: funny THING …
LibertarianBill: damn typos
dwrighsr: Well, I had been reading Heinlein for about 5 years when it came out. I bought it in the Baptist Book store at the Ridgecrest Baptist center in North Carolina. Those baptists didn’t know what they had!
AGplusone: Nope, I’m old, started with Galileo just like Genesis …
LibertarianBill: Baptists would have no objection to juvies …. but TEFL? Stranger? Look out!
AGplusone: Job: …
LibertarianBill: I have never read Galileo ….
dwrighsr: Nah. the juvies were the most dangerous of the lot. everything sub-liminal
NitroPress: “In the beginning were valences, and Og-2 looked down upon them and saw that they were good.”
NitroPress: Exactamundo, DavidW.
LibertarianBill: I have also never seen Destination: Moon
AGplusone: It fascinated me … he was actually talking way above my head.
dwrighsr: Some people are just deprived (depraved?)
AGplusone: I heard someone say Destination was on a DVD?
AGplusone: Anyone know about that?
Doc4Kidz: for what it’s worth, I;m in the process of scaling out the Luna for my model rocket club!
LibertarianBill: Anyone notice that in the scifi show Babylon Five, one of the gods is named “Valen” as in valences
Doc4Kidz: I’ll post pictures if any one’s interested.
Doc4Kidz: or not, if not
Lenjazz: The prophet Valen, I think. Not a god.
AGplusone: How do you know it’s not Michael Valentine Smith?
AGplusone: The Heretic?
LibertarianBill: actually, a human turned into a Mimbari
AGplusone: Pop an URL into the room, Doc. I think everyone would like to see it.
dwrighsr: Picture Doc. you bet
TAWN3: Doc, did you see this http://www.starships.com/SF_Image91.HTML
AGplusone: [saw that and copied it when you posted on AFH Tawn]
geeairmoe2: Theres a Destination Moon VHS on eBay as we speak. No bidders, auction ends in about 40 minutes.
Doc4Kidz: yes, Tawn. Thanks. That’s what I used. I;m plugging it into a program called Rocksim which will scale and parts list it for me
Lenjazz: Excellent image! I have copy of Destination Moon. Great fun!
TAWN3: Cool Doc
Lenjazz: $18.00 is a fair price for the VHS.
dwrighsr: In my early years of High School, I was prone to drawing pictures of space ships during classes, guess what they all looked like?
TAWN3: Len, you have a dvd or hhs?
Prnzofthvs has entered the room.
Lenjazz: VHS…am unaware of DVD release.
dwrighsr: Well look what the cat drug in?
NitroPress: That’s for ridiculousness.
Prnzofthvs: herro, errybody
LibertarianBill: All my spaceship drawings had a saucer and three cigar-shaped nascels. Wonder why
dwrighsr: That dates you.
LibertarianBill: Oh Christ!
NitroPress: Hey, Steve. Good connection from Mexico. 🙂
AGplusone: There’s your answer … Gee, I’ve got to write a following article for web research, could we get together some time. I need to know the search machines you keep using that work so fast.
jleebeane has left the room.
NitroPress: They expect it to go for more than $1M.
LibertarianBill: Howdy Steve!
Prnzofthvs: you recognized me without my sandals, Bill!
LibertarianBill: Been missing our police discussisons (ahem)
Prnzofthvs: Not Mexico, Jim; I’m in So Cal
NitroPress: Even worse. 🙂
LibertarianBill: Not police, damn typos
AGplusone: Having dinner with me tomorrow night!
NitroPress: (…said the Northern California native.)
LibertarianBill: You didn’t spend much time in Mexico before coming back, Steve.
dwrighsr: When is No Cal going to secede from the South? 🙂
Prnzofthvs: well, Laguna Niguel has days in the 70’s, with pleasant ocean breezes, and the smog is all gone…
LibertarianBill: Everything okay tot he south
AGplusone: So wear a false beard, Steve, so we can post it on Stephen’s site … 😀
NitroPress: We already did– back in the Permian era.
dwrighsr: I thought I noticed a big divide
NitroPress: Yes, it’s called Fresno.
AGplusone: Pretty soon we’ll be selling desert lots off San Francisco Bay … for large bucks! Buy Lancaster now!
Prnzofthvs: haven’t been to Mexico yet; have to wait for financial matters to be taken care of, in connection with retirement
LibertarianBill: ahhhhhh …..
AGplusone: Vas ist los? Len.
Prnzofthvs: Fresno – my old home town!
LibertarianBill: whaddaya think of the elections south of the border, Steve?
Prnzofthvs: going up there this weekend
DenvToday: Well, good-night to one and al. i had a great time. Thanks!
Lenjazz: Destination Moon.. $17.99
LibertarianBill: seeya Denv
AGplusone: Nite, Denv
Prnzofthvs: Fox looks like he might be good for the country
DenvToday: Night…..See you next time!
Lenjazz: Bye Denv.
NitroPress: Oops, wrong link.
BPRAL22169: And they said the government couldn’t do a cheap moon shot!
Prnzofthvs: It’ll be interesting, anyway
DenvToday has left the room.
LibertarianBill: I honestly have no opinion … Of course, I am glad to see the Mexicans now have a choice in their presidential elections.
Lucylou98 has entered the room.
dwrighsr: Hi Lisa
Lucylou98: Evening RAH fans
LibertarianBill: Howdy Lucy
Lucylou98: Hi, ……David is it?
dwrighsr: David Wright
Prnzofthvs: Jim: please send me your e-mail address (in e-mail) so I can send you my CC number to order your book. everything’s on my puter, which is packed up.
Lucylou98: hi, Libertarian
LibertarianBill: Just “Bill” …
Lenjazz: Ah…Nitro…there IS a DVD!!!
Lucylou98: ok..Hi, Bill:-)
NitroPress: Yep, there is. There’s this, too…
AGplusone: Hi, Lucy
Lucylou98: Evenin’ Zim
NitroPress: Steve: Get Bill P to print you off an order form from the web site. Easiest way.
Prnzofthvs: Hi Lucy, long time no see
Lucylou98: Prn, I’ve been in class everyday.
Prnzofthvs: I can do that; thru my nephew’s computer. what’s the url?
dwrighsr: Excuses, excuses
Lucylou98: good excuse tho!
Prnzofthvs: duh! 😀
Lucylou98: What is that link?
NitroPress: Well, let’s see, you’re online now, right?
geeairmoe2: I still need to buy the revised Puppet Masters.
Prnzofthvs: not really; just pretending!
AGplusone: The book?
geeairmoe2: The book, yes.
LibertarianBill: I recently bought the unedited version …. but it was a long time since reading the original. What were the big differences?
NitroPress: Well, pop on over and print out a form.
NitroPress: Or put in the order.
geeairmoe2: I read it is almost 1/3 longer.
Prnzofthvs: anybody seen the new versions of RAH’s books? the trade-size paperbacks with the really gothic-looking covers?
AGplusone: Lots of cuts … characterizations, details, the typical Heinlein asides …
NitroPress: Not quite– uh (fumbles for copy of ARC..)
Doc4Kidz: Nice to see everyone again, but it’s almost midnight here on the “right” coast. Goodnight all. See you next meeting (or Saturday, I’ll try)
Lucylou98: brb going for coffee
Lucylou98: Night Barry
AGplusone: See ya, Barry
NitroPress: …right. 90,000 cut to about 63,000.
LibertarianBill: True … I like Heinlein’s asides. Although editors like to justify their existance by cutting out such things
Doc4Kidz has left the room.
AGplusone: I’ll send you a copy of the final blood count
AGplusone: in the memory of RAH for his birthday. We send Ginny a copy each year
LibertarianBill: Toward the end of my phase in journalism when I was actually EDITED, i started putting in things I knew editors would take out. It gave them areason to leave the good stuff alone
NitroPress: …they like the flavor better after they’ve peed in it…
AGplusone: Same thing in the legal profession. If you’ve got a boss you overwrite so there’s something to make him feel good taking it out.
LibertarianBill: Oh, so you are a professional writer then?
LibertarianBill: hee hee
LibertarianBill: Only a writer would have than expression on hand for use
AGplusone: And you stand there nodding and impressed while he ‘makes it better’ …
NitroPress: Me? Writer, editor, designer, publisher.
geeairmoe2: Doubled back, huh?
LibertarianBill: Of course, AG
TAWN3: Hi Lisa
LibertarianBill: Me to at my last job, Nitro. I also swept out the joint at night.
LibertarianBill: Me too, I mean
Lucylou98: afraid to type for fear of double
Lucylou98: Hi, Tawn
AGplusone: Lucy, Lucy … ‘splain that!
LibertarianBill: Oh Rickeeeeeee
Lucylou98: Something happened with Bert here.
Lucylou98: he hiccuped
LibertarianBill: you mean hicoughed
LibertarianBill: I had an editor who wanted to spell it that way
LibertarianBill: d*mn editors
AGplusone: Okay: Announcement. Next two weeks meeting is read “Gulf” from Assignment in Eternity (no excuses, they just reissued it) and Ron Harrison (Dehede) will cohost the chat. Expect a post leading it off in two days.
AGplusone: Post will be on AFH
NitroPress: Aliens of Foreign Hadventures.
LibertarianBill: Gulf it is …. just read it ’bout two months ago, but will give it a new try.
Lucylou98: Read it not long ago myself
BPRAL22169: And everybody knows the collection Assignment in Eternity is out in paperback from baen, right?
Lenjazz: Know now.
Lucylou98: Didn’t know that
Lucylou98: Thanx Bill
AGplusone: (I’d also read Friday in my spare time, other suggestions might be …. Bill, Jim?) And Ron will refer to what’s that book: Bell Curve?
LibertarianBill: “Gulf” one of few Heinleiner with a genuine omnipotent alien, technolically speaking.
NitroPress: What alien?
BPRAL22169: Do not expect to be able to read The Bell Curve in two weeks.
LibertarianBill: I wasn’t making a suggestiion.
Lenjazz: Anyone know how screen adaptation of Tunnel in the Sky is coming?
AGplusone: The red monkeys …
Lucylou98: I still haven’t waded thru it
BPRAL22169: I haven’t heard of any actual progress on that.
LibertarianBill: Your use fo the word reminded me of this editor, as lousy editors was a recent thread here.
NitroPress: “Gulf” and Friday stand alone in their own continuum. Good pair to tackle.
BPRAL22169: Ron is interested in the superman aspect.
AGplusone: I’d think about the Howards too …
Lucylou98: I know….
NitroPress: But super-man := alien
BPRAL22169: That reminds me — a potentially useful piece of outside reading would be theRenshaw articles that appeared in the Post in 1948.
NitroPress: Do you have them?
AGplusone: But there’s no reason we cannot cover all aspects of “Gulf” including what Bill just mentioned.
BPRAL22169: I have them.
LibertarianBill: Wasn’t Friday set Coventry-like political conditions? It has been twenty years since I read it, while Coventry was a recent read ….
NitroPress: Or: man++ := alien
LibertarianBill: <—- I may be having brain damage here.
BPRAL22169: I got the original Posts on Ebay
AGplusone: I do also. Has the copywrite run on them?
NitroPress: Ooh. Jealous.
BPRAL22169: I will be happy to send you a set.
BPRAL22169: (or bring them to Chicago.)
NitroPress: I was going to catalogue my files for you and RJ to checklist and order.
AGplusone: Bill sent me a copy …
BPRAL22169: I’ve got a better copy now. The ones I sent to you last year, Dave, were from Microfiches. These are from the magazines.
NitroPress: Hard to photocopy– aren’t they oversized?
AGplusone: If the copyright has run, I might try scanning them and putting them on a website … okay …
BPRAL22169: Except fo rone page — for reasons that passunderstanding, all the copies of the 4/28/48 Post i’ve seen have p. 144 missing.
AGplusone: Reduced copies … 20th century xeroxes
NitroPress: Is there a hot ad on one side, I wonder?
BPRAL22169: No– the pages are exactly 11′ wide, which means they fit on an 11×17 sheet.
NitroPress: I’ve seen tearsheets of certain ads on eBay and elsewhere.
BPRAL22169: I don’t know — I didn’t copy the microfiche of the reverse page.
NitroPress: “A Buck Well Spent on a Springmaid Sheet.”
BPRAL22169: I’ve got the missing page in the faint, microfiche versin.
BPRAL22169: But I’m still looking for a clean copy of that magazine.
AGplusone: I think it was readable
AGplusone: And I can play with Photoshop to see if I can fix it a little
NitroPress: Anyone ever located any of Renshaw’s papers or books?
BPRAL22169: At any rate, if anybody wants an 8.5×11 (reduced) clean copy, I can provide it.
Prnzofthvs: Jim: you’re the only person other than myself who has revealed he remembers that ad!
BPRAL22169: I’ve never found any non-academic papers.
LibertarianBill: Photoshop is expensive …. but good. Used it in newspaper work.
Prnzofthvs: Did you ever see the parody of it?
NitroPress: Steve: Never saw it, but my mother described it with much humor many times. What parody?
AGplusone: Ohio State or Ohio Univ … don’t they have a collection.
NitroPress: ANyone in Ohio?
Prnzofthvs: Nat Lampoon showed the picture with an Indian Maiden just leaving the hammock
NSTAFL has left the room.
NitroPress: That’s the way the originals were– just a trifle less obvious.
AGplusone: A Maid Well Spent on a Buck Sheet in Spring?
LibertarianBill: More about the Howard family=superman aspect …
NitroPress: Typical of NL to make the humor as obvious as possible.
TAWN3: Me too Bill!
Prnzofthvs: Well, maybe I’m remembering the originals, then
BPRAL22169: OK, tawn — remind me next time we chat re THS.
NitroPress: The original ads showed a tired and happy Indian “buck” lounging on a mattress.
LibertarianBill: Anyone here read P.J Farmer, esp. his Tarzan and Doc Savage stuff?
AGplusone: Find a Buckeye …
AGplusone: I have that Farmer volume …
NitroPress: Read all of his Riverworld stuff, some short stories.
Lucylou98: Read River World stuff
TAWN3: Ok I will
LibertarianBill: He postulated that the ancestors of Tarzan, Doc, Shadow, Sherlock Holmes, et al, wer bathed in radiation my meteorite …
Prnzofthvs: Read River World; interesting series
BPRAL22169: and “Riders of the Purple Wage.”
NitroPress: Any A.E. van Vogt readers? Just picked up a big stack of PBs.
Prnzofthvs: Used to read him
TAWN3: Yes, Read the Tarzan book.
Lucylou98: I love Van Vogt
TAWN3: Didn’t like it.
AGplusone: Tawn :::::waving::::
geeairmoe2: Just ordered and am waiting for the Isher books.
Prnzofthvs: “Slan” was one of his, yes?
NitroPress: Underread in him; was working on catching up.
LibertarianBill: There is a whole subculture of fan fiction that tried to link other literary characters with the Tarzan family tree …
TAWN3: I’m a Burrouhgs fan
BPRAL22169: Slan and null-A
NitroPress: Same to you, buddy!
TAWN3: Van Vogt!
LibertarianBill: One such website I read had one such family member named George Strong of Baltimore, father of a Hazel Strong, who appeared in one of Burroughs Tarzan books.
BPRAL22169: In the 40’s he was considered in Heinlein’s league. Seems strange now.
NitroPress: Tawn: It was you, I think, that jogged the memory. I picked up a big stack to day.
dwrighsr: My intro to General Semantics. Made a great impression on me.
NitroPress: sorry, meant twoday.
BPRAL22169: Somebody must have hit you with Science and Sanity.
LibertarianBill: I was speculating whether this could be the same George Strong (theoretically, speaking) who Maureen had an agffair with in Sail, the same George Strong who worked for Herriman
AGplusone: David … I am about to wrap it up … I have up to the point I asked Bill if he was going to push the Heinlein Society at Chicon … do you need any of the backup.
NitroPress: vV went off down the Dianetics trail and left (other) sf behind fora long while.
dwrighsr: I’ve got everything from when I signed on.
BPRAL22169: I think i’ve got everything same — from 6;15 or so.
AGplusone: Okay .. anything you can think of that needs be excised?
LibertarianBill: well, unless you have read a lot fo the Tarzan stuff, this would interest no on here ….
AGplusone: Maybe one line before 9 PM at the very beginning.
TAWN3: Yes he did
dwrighsr: A couple of indiscreet comments I made.
NitroPress: Everything Tawn posted.
AGplusone: Not a problem. I make them and cut them out all the time.
TAWN3: Yes that was me Jim, I thought of that when I saw you bought the PBs
BPRAL22169: David, could you give us the address for the Warehouse?
Lucylou98: wish i could see the indiscreet lines
AGplusone: Kultsi just signed on … coming up Bill.
Prnzofthvs: 4499Admiralty Drive
dwrighsr: Nothing Naughty. Lisa
NitroPress: You have to wear a cheap grade of underwear.
LibertarianBill: well kinda delved into out little personal agendas … myself a huge violator.
Lucylou98: didn’t mean……
KultsiKN has entered the room.
NitroPress: Hee hee.
Lucylou98: naughty wasn’t how i was thinking! shame on you
Prnzofthvs: Bill: did you get that?
NitroPress: Ho ho.
BPRAL22169: Got it.
KultsiKN: Good morning, everybody!
LibertarianBill: nothing wrong with pany lines ….;-)
BPRAL22169: I’ll see you tomorrow evening, Steve.
dwrighsr: Nope All the arguing gets left in. 🙂
Prnzofthvs: Hey Kultsi!
NitroPress: Good evening from California.
Prnzofthvs: looking forward to it, really!
KultsiKN: Hello, Steve!
Lucylou98: Hi, Kultsi
TAWN3: Hey Kultsi
LibertarianBill: I just want it mentioned that I was dragged kicking and screaming back into the evil clutches of AOL.
Prnzofthvs: David, any recommendations about what to do when I arrive early to beat the traffic?
AGplusone: I’ll call in a reservation tonight or tomorrow morning if someone shows up late.
Prnzofthvs: any good trashy tourist areas close by?
LibertarianBill: ALSO — I want it mentioned that NOT ONCE did Steve and I exchange insults.
NitroPress: Me too me too
AGplusone: I sneak in the back way along Pacific …
AGplusone: From Ocean in Santa Monica instead of going down Lincoln.
Prnzofthvs: Only because I have admirable self-control, Lib
AGplusone: But you can also cut across Abbot Kinney
dwrighsr: We are all aware of that Prn 😀
Prnzofthvs: I’m just going the way Mapquest guides me….
NitroPress: Yeah, right, you %$#&*!
LibertarianBill: Snort! You weren’t hear earlier when I called the post office a bunch of snivelling …. oh, never mind.
Prnzofthvs: I’m amazed at how much calmer I am since I left the PO
KultsiKN: How was the chat?
LibertarianBill: hee hee hee
Lucylou98: what is 3 gross?
TAWN3: Prnz, LOL
AGplusone: ’twas as usual … diffuse, fascinating, off the wall … and sometimes a little profound
KultsiKN: While you were at it I was asleep, and now I’m off to work…
NitroPress: half a week’s underwear on the wall.
Prnzofthvs: I called my old supervisor to ask him to send my last few paystubs to me; he was quite a bit less than enthused to hear from me….
BPRAL22169: 426, Lisa.
TAWN3: Why Steve?
LibertarianBill: I have that effect on my former supes, too, Steve.
geeairmoe2: There was no chat, Kultsi, it was the various versions of
Libertarians sticking pins in one another’s dolls.
KultsiKN: See y’all on Saturday!
TAWN3: 144 = gross
Lenjazz: ‘night all. Thanks for including me.
AGplusone: See you Kultsi
Prnzofthvs: Let’s just say that he still remembers that I used to yell at him across the workroom floor, whenever he screwed up
BPRAL22169: 432, rather. I can’t add.
Lenjazz has left the room.
Lucylou98: 12 *12 then is gross?
AGplusone: Nite Len, any time
AGplusone: Yep, 144
TAWN3: Bye Len
KultsiKN has left the room.
LibertarianBill: Well, when I am sh*t-canned at one job, I tell the a**holes what I think of them.
Prnzofthvs: what’s so gross about the number 144? O:-)
BPRAL22169: What is that? A smiley and a porthole?
Lucylou98: Pr, that’s what I’m trying to find out
NitroPress: type nice, my 4mo XX is on my lap watching.
AGplusone: A halo!
LibertarianBill: I used the ” * ” button.
Prnzofthvs: I think it’s a very nice number, myself!
dwrighsr: exposure to bad influences 🙂
AGplusone: Learning to spell here rather than in the bippy …
NitroPress: showing her why not to grow up libertarian.
Prnzofthvs: I didn’t have the chance to tell management off; I was out on stress leave (hehehehe) for my last 6-7 weeks…
AGplusone: Have you told your wife that really she’s Brand X yet. Guarantee to get you cold shoulder.
LibertarianBill: grrrrr …..
Lucylou98: you’ve lost me
NitroPress: nah. wife inured to/better humor than that
AGplusone: Which she’ll gladly prepare into a knuckle sandwich …
Prnzofthvs: If I find you, can I keep you?
TAWN3: Anyone watch Survivor?
Lucylou98: well…..that depends lol
AGplusone: Only if she likes to fish … not a chance … junk TV at it’s worst.
TAWN3: I laughed.
Prnzofthvs: It’s about as realistic as mtv’s real world
AGplusone: Rather watch Regis and Kathy Lee
TAWN3: It’s interesting.
TAWN3: A social lab on TV
LibertarianBill: I got fired once — my boss was covering up her mistake — I went into her bosses office and had an hour-long discussion with him. He offered my job back. I refused. She still turns red when my name is brought up.
geeairmoe2: I’ll watch until Jenna’s voted off.
Prnzofthvs: lucy: I know a nice cantina down Baja way, with an empty table in the back…
TAWN3: Now the politics are becoming much more deadly, eliminate the laikely survivors since they are competition
AGplusone: Speaking of cold shoulder … I’m hongry … g’night all. See you Saturday, or in two weeks, except for Steve et al. See you tomorrow over some nice scampi!
NitroPress: bye, ag.
TAWN3: I like Jenna
dwrighsr: How are the last 2 going to be able to vote one another off?
Lucylou98: bye AG
LibertarianBill: They keep kicking off those MOST likley to be a real life survivor!
Lucylou98: dont the ones who got voted off do the voting?
BPRAL22169: ciao one, ciao all.
Prnzofthvs: like the retired UDT/Seal
Lucylou98: bye Bill
geeairmoe2: bye, David.
LibertarianBill: The most loathed and despided castaways and the ones who know what they are doing!
LibertarianBill: How like real life
LibertarianBill: By Lucy!
Prnzofthvs: the final selection is done by those who’ve already left
AGplusone: Thanks again, David for logging and posting them.
TAWN3: The previous seven are called back to decide which is the winner.
LibertarianBill: errr…. night Bill
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
AGplusone has left the room.
dwrighsr: You are welcome
geeairmoe2: When its down to the last two, the previous seven vote.
LibertarianBill: later ….
Lucylou98: is the show good and competitive?
LibertarianBill: I am outa here …..
LibertarianBill: see everyone tomorrow
dwrighsr: See ya LibBill
LibertarianBill has left the room.
Prnzofthvs: “Real World” with broiled rats on the menu
TAWN3: But it is interesting.
TAWN3: Not at TitS as I had expected, but interesting.
dwrighsr: Rather spend my time reading Heinlein. Sorry
Lucylou98: I’m outta here too. night everyone. Night tawn.
Lucylou98 has left the room.
TAWN3: Bye Lisa.
Prnzofthvs: nite. Lucy
geeairmoe2: 48 hours did a thing on being famous and talked to Jenna and Sean. Sean is getting stalking calls from women.
NitroPress: gotta run… poopy diaper x 2 here.
dwrighsr: Night jim
Prnzofthvs: stalking is the current preferred method of courtship.
TAWN3: I saw a clip from that last night.
Prnzofthvs: bye Jim
NitroPress has left the room.
TAWN3: Of course it’s not stalking when a woman does it, is it? Hypocrisy.
geeairmoe2: I’ve got to be wondering off, too. Last one out, turn off the lights.
dwrighsr: Night Will.
Prnzofthvs: yes, it is; and prosecutable. Read about a case just the other day. don’t be so mysoginstic!
TAWN3: Oh wow, room is getting empty!
geeairmoe2 has left the room.
Prnzofthvs: just hope the power doesn’t go off
dwrighsr: Yes, that’s normal for this time. 😎
TAWN3: No, I’m being feministic.
Prnzofthvs: meant to spell that word correctly! damn!
TAWN3: Where are you now Steve, NM?
Prnzofthvs: actually, though, stalking cases against women have been successfully prosecuted.
Prnzofthvs: I’m in Laguna Niguel, CA
TAWN3: Yes, if you are David Letterman.
Prnzofthvs: I spent a wild week-end in Holbrook, AZ waiting for a new master cylinder for my Blazer, on the way out here.
TAWN3: Where in AZ is Holbrook?
Prnzofthvs: Holbrook has about 12 1/2 residents, including goats and chickens
Prnzofthvs: It’s on I-40, about 50 miles east of “standing on the corner” Winslow.
dwrighsr: Well. Folks, I am officially closing the log. Time 12:26 AM 7-7-2000. We made it to RAH’s actual birthday.
Final End of Discussion Log