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"Problematica" 
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Heinlein Biographer

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:33 pm
Posts: 1024
Post Re: "Problematica"
georule wrote:
Was SIASL accepted as hard sf? The core concept --the difference in viewpoint of an exceptional human (VMS genome rates that) raised by aliens surely should qualify? Speaking of various above, am I mis-remembering, or were you and I (and Robert James, and George R.R. Martin, if that helps you place the moment I have in mind) in a greenroom in San Jose where Hal Clement sadly opined in the watershed difference in Heinlein in this regard starting with SIASL?

Sometimes it is a matter of distance in time/race that can allow you to get away with social engineering in "hard sf" without tripping the yowls of the Adjudicators, it seems to me. But I would argue that is often more a matter of "plausible deniability" than a real separation.

I remember the occasion well. The reaction of Harry Stubbs to SIASL is a demonstration of the fact that Stranger was regarded as a radical departure from the hard-sf Heinlein. So we have a metric: Starship Troopers was to some degree within the range as it existed at the time, and Stranger in a Strange Land was not.

However, I don't think you can look much for objective factors in this judgment. What I think had really ended was that Heinein went through a period in the 1950's of deliberately being "pleasing," of stroking and coddling his readership (more in the nonfiction, I think, but it fits the whole concept he had of the juveniles, and he probably learned it from doing the juveniles), and that ended in the editorial rooms of Scribner's in 1959. Stranger was the first thing written after the extremely traumatic rejection by Scribner's, and the first thing written under his new rubric of writing "my own stuff, my own way" (which pretty much tells us what he thought was going on in at least the immediately preceding books).

I think Robert James has the straight of it here: that is the moment at which Heinlein flung off commercial restraints and became the artist he had always been in potentia.


Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:08 am
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Heinlein Biographer

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:33 pm
Posts: 1024
Post Re: "Problematica"
georule wrote:
Was SIASL accepted as hard sf? The core concept --the difference in viewpoint of an exceptional human (VMS genome rates that) raised by aliens surely should qualify? Speaking of various above, am I mis-remembering, or were you and I (and Robert James, and George R.R. Martin, if that helps you place the moment I have in mind) in a greenroom in San Jose where Hal Clement sadly opined in the watershed difference in Heinlein in this regard starting with SIASL?

Sometimes it is a matter of distance in time/race that can allow you to get away with social engineering in "hard sf" without tripping the yowls of the Adjudicators, it seems to me. But I would argue that is often more a matter of "plausible deniability" than a real separation.

I remember the occasion well. The reaction of Harry Stubbs to SIASL is a demonstration of the fact that Stranger was regarded as a radical departure from the hard-sf Heinlein. So we have a metric: Starship Troopers was to some degree within the range as it existed at the time, and Stranger in a Strange Land was not.

However, I don't think you can look much for objective factors in this judgment. What I think had really ended was that Heinein went through a period in the 1950's of deliberately being "pleasing," of stroking and coddling his readership (more in the nonfiction, I think, but it fits the whole concept he had of the juveniles, and he probably learned it from doing the juveniles), and that ended in the editorial rooms of Scribner's in 1959. Stranger was the first thing written after the extremely traumatic rejection by Scribner's, and the first thing written under his new rubric of writing "my own stuff, my own way" (which pretty much tells us what he thought was going on in at least the immediately preceding books).

I think Robert James has the straight of it here: that is the moment at which Heinlein flung off commercial restraints and became the artist he had always been in potentia.


Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:08 am
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Heinlein Biographer

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:33 pm
Posts: 1024
Post Re: "Problematica"
georule wrote:
Was SIASL accepted as hard sf? The core concept --the difference in viewpoint of an exceptional human (VMS genome rates that) raised by aliens surely should qualify? Speaking of various above, am I mis-remembering, or were you and I (and Robert James, and George R.R. Martin, if that helps you place the moment I have in mind) in a greenroom in San Jose where Hal Clement sadly opined in the watershed difference in Heinlein in this regard starting with SIASL?

Sometimes it is a matter of distance in time/race that can allow you to get away with social engineering in "hard sf" without tripping the yowls of the Adjudicators, it seems to me. But I would argue that is often more a matter of "plausible deniability" than a real separation.

I remember the occasion well. The reaction of Harry Stubbs to SIASL is a demonstration of the fact that Stranger was regarded as a radical departure from the hard-sf Heinlein. So we have a metric: Starship Troopers was to some degree within the range as it existed at the time, and Stranger in a Strange Land was not.

However, I don't think you can look much for objective factors in this judgment. What I think had really ended was that Heinein went through a period in the 1950's of deliberately being "pleasing," of stroking and coddling his readership (more in the nonfiction, I think, but it fits the whole concept he had of the juveniles, and he probably learned it from doing the juveniles), and that ended in the editorial rooms of Scribner's in 1959. Stranger was the first thing written after the extremely traumatic rejection by Scribner's, and the first thing written under his new rubric of writing "my own stuff, my own way" (which pretty much tells us what he thought was going on in at least the immediately preceding books).

I think Robert James has the straight of it here: that is the moment at which Heinlein flung off commercial restraints and became the artist he had always been in potentia.


Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:08 am
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Heinlein Biographer

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:33 pm
Posts: 1024
Post Re: "Problematica"
georule wrote:
Was SIASL accepted as hard sf? The core concept --the difference in viewpoint of an exceptional human (VMS genome rates that) raised by aliens surely should qualify? Speaking of various above, am I mis-remembering, or were you and I (and Robert James, and George R.R. Martin, if that helps you place the moment I have in mind) in a greenroom in San Jose where Hal Clement sadly opined in the watershed difference in Heinlein in this regard starting with SIASL?

Sometimes it is a matter of distance in time/race that can allow you to get away with social engineering in "hard sf" without tripping the yowls of the Adjudicators, it seems to me. But I would argue that is often more a matter of "plausible deniability" than a real separation.

I remember the occasion well. The reaction of Harry Stubbs to SIASL is a demonstration of the fact that Stranger was regarded as a radical departure from the hard-sf Heinlein. So we have a metric: Starship Troopers was to some degree within the range as it existed at the time, and Stranger in a Strange Land was not.

However, I don't think you can look much for objective factors in this judgment. What I think had really ended was that Heinein went through a period in the 1950's of deliberately being "pleasing," of stroking and coddling his readership (more in the nonfiction, I think, but it fits the whole concept he had of the juveniles, and he probably learned it from doing the juveniles), and that ended in the editorial rooms of Scribner's in 1959. Stranger was the first thing written after the extremely traumatic rejection by Scribner's, and the first thing written under his new rubric of writing "my own stuff, my own way" (which pretty much tells us what he thought was going on in at least the immediately preceding books).

I think Robert James has the straight of it here: that is the moment at which Heinlein flung off commercial restraints and became the artist he had always been in potentia.


Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:08 am
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Post Re: "Problematica"
New & Improved Bill Patterson! Now 500% more profound!

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Bill Higgins
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http://beamjockey.livejournal.com


Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:25 am
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Heinlein Biographer

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:33 pm
Posts: 1024
Post Re: "Problematica"
beamjockey wrote:
New & Improved Bill Patterson! Now 500% more profound!

Sorry about the multiple posts: for some reason in the last couple of days the Nexus has slowed down to about a tenth of its usual speed, and it's taking up to 2 minutes for me to get action on a navigation request. I didn't know it at that point and reposted accidentally because I didn't know it already had my "submit!" dammit. Now I know, so I'll just wait it out.


Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:37 am
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Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:18 pm
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Location: Minnesota
Post Re: "Problematica"
Yes, painfully slow here as well. Basically spent the last 1/2 hr trying to post this between time-outs and log-offs.

Did someone remember to feed the hamsters?

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"Rub her feet." --Woodrow Wilson Smith

"Hey, if I'm going to pass on the timeless wisdom of the ages in a Sig, that pretty well qualifies, in my experience." --Geo Rule


Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:32 am
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Location: Minnesota
Post Re: "Problematica"
Much better today --the hamsters must be back from their beach vacation.

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"Rub her feet." --Woodrow Wilson Smith

"Hey, if I'm going to pass on the timeless wisdom of the ages in a Sig, that pretty well qualifies, in my experience." --Geo Rule


Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:55 am
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Post Re: "Problematica"
The hamsters were all mercilessly squashed and replaced with roadrunners.

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"Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders." - Luther
In the end, I found Heinlein is finite. Thus, finite analysis is needed.


Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:23 pm
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Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:18 pm
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Location: Minnesota
Post Re: "Problematica"
JamesGifford wrote:
The hamsters were all mercilessly squashed and replaced with roadrunners.


Yes, downright peppy now. . .shiny new electrons somewhere?


Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:01 am
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