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Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project 
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NitroForum Oldster

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 1:58 pm
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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
Jack Kelly wrote:
JohnBlack wrote:
I know who Harlan Ellison is, but don't think I've read anything of his (a side trip to Google indicates he wrote some of the original series Star Treks so perhaps I've seen some of his work if not read it).


If you get a chance you should read the Ellison short story I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream. It's one of my favorite short stories by anyone. I think Ellison was an extremely talented writer who went "Hollywood."


Harlan Ellison wrote what is thought to be the best star trek episode : The city on the edge of forever, even so it was edited and changed so much that i think he asked for his writers credit to be withdrawn.


Wed May 14, 2008 12:11 am
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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
jim mc gauley wrote:
[Harlan Ellison wrote what is thought to be the best star trek episode : The city on the edge of forever, even so it was edited and changed so much that i think he asked for his writers credit to be withdrawn.

The script was changed only from his first draft, in which he called for things many times outside the episode's budget. He may have complained about it (this is the Howling Elephant, after all) but his credit was still on the show when I watched it yesterday. (I go through some strange stuff on the treadmill screen...)

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"Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders." - Luther
In the end, I found Heinlein is finite. Thus, finite analysis is needed.


Wed May 14, 2008 7:33 am
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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
jim mc gauley wrote:
Harlan Ellison wrote what is thought to be the best star trek episode : The city on the edge of forever, even so it was edited and changed so much that i think he asked for his writers credit to be withdrawn.


It's my favorite episode, and for what it's worth, I consider the version that aired to be far superior to what Ellison wrote (he published it). I could go into detail and take the thread even further off topic, but Roddenberry got a lot of bad press after he died and I just wanted to throw out that this was one place where I consider that he got it right. Ellison's version would have been better if it were a standalone story, but it was not Star Trek.


Wed May 14, 2008 7:15 pm
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NitroForum Oldster

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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
It is my favourite too thanks to you and jim for putting me right on the writers credit,I thought that i had read somewhere that he had asked for it to be removed.
( memo to self,check facts before posting )


Thu May 15, 2008 5:00 am
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NitroForum Oldster

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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
You asked for a silence breaker...

Hmmm...you never responded to my questions on page 2 of this thread regarding Zelazny and Vonnegut and "New Wave" as well as my inquiry regarding what you felt had changed in Harrison. I was not certain if you ignored it as being out of scope to the thread topic, or felt that the questions were ridiculous or simply missed the post.

For my part I was trying determine if the "New Wave" definition's scope was broader than what you had initially described. For instance, if it was based a specific generation of writers vs. a specific style. As far as my own personal opinion goes I see no relationship between say Brunner's style of writing and Zelazny's and quite frankly, Zelazny is far superior to Brunner and Lem and Miller. IMO. Vonnegut I see as excellent in his own right but representing a 3rd style of writing from the contrast I'm referencing above. i.e. Related to neither Brunner nor Zelazny.

When the topic of "Who could be Heinlein's equal" had come up on the old forum I had posted that I felt Zelazny could. My stance was that equal does not necessarily mean 'same' in terms of style. Zelazny did write SF as well as the fantasy that he was well known for. My Name Is Legion stands out to me. It is an example of something that was SF when it was written but that now only had elements of SF. Science fiction had transitioned to fact. I would be disappointed to find out that Zelazny was of a mind to "save science fiction from itself" or that he felt that Heinlein, Clark and Van Vogt were dinosaurs.


Fri May 23, 2008 2:07 am
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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
Nearly all of what I find snide and self-serving about the New Wavers is encapsulated in Aldiss's book and comes from him. I don't have any references on hand to indicate that any others of his clique and era felt that way - at least, not that strongly. If you read the works of the era and some of the public commentary by the various big names of the time, you can see that the sense that they were sf's hot sh*t come with the revolution in their pockets was pretty widespread.

Some grew out of it, some didn't. Zelazny gets a special pass, from me at least, for writing two of the finest mind-bending short stories of the 20th C. The tremendous intellectual vertigo that blazes from "Divine Madness" and "Lucifer" deserves inclusion in any collection of landmark short fiction of the era.

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"Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders." - Luther
In the end, I found Heinlein is finite. Thus, finite analysis is needed.


Fri May 23, 2008 11:45 am
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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
JohnBlack wrote:
For my part I was trying determine if the "New Wave" definition's scope was broader
than what you had initially described. For instance, if it was based a specific generation of writers
vs. a specific style.

I guess it also has a national component. Like Jim, I spontaneously associate the so-called
New Wave to Brian Aldiss, and a few fellow English authors. Follow-ups were quite different
in the US (after Judith Merril, who admired the original English newwavers, but put a lot more
weight on some political issues, and specifically VietNam), and in France (where the early 70s
young SF was so intent in its ultra-left political message that its fiction was barely readable).

Yet, it clearly has also a generational basis — and, 40 years later, I am quite amused
by the persistance of these guys who once considered indecent that "Old Father Heinlein"
(to quote Aldiss) might still write about sex at 60, but can't help seeing themselves as
the (forever ?) young generation while well into their seventies..


Fri May 23, 2008 11:06 pm
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NitroForum Oldster

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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
I sent the following email to Daniel Pearlman who is the primary contact for the Council for Literature of the Fantastic. They wish to promote fantastic literature and we are in favor of promoting Heinlein's works so it might be a good match. If nothing else perhaps we can bring in additional members to participate in our own discussions here.

Hello,

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/english/clf/whatis.html

I came across the above referenced website of yours while trying to determine who was teaching the class "History Through Science Fiction" at URI. It was my intention to write to them and inquire what is on the typical reading list required for this class.

Myself, and some friends, have a specific interest in the works of Robert Anson Heinlein and some recent discussion came about regarding 'real world' Heinlein projects. I wondered if the class "History Through Science Fiction" currently examines any of his works. I think a number of his books are relevant to history and culture and would be intrigued/encouraged to hear that this was considered in the class.

There are others that would probably enjoy a discussion on this topic. Would anyone at CLF be interested in such a discussion? I am talking about informally on a forum.

Looking at this page:

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/english/clf/people.html

It occurs to me that there are several people who might be interested in at least discussing the topic of Heinlein and cultural relevance. Particularly:

Tim Kenyon
Janet Massa
Mark Amerika
and yourself or course.

If so, could you pass my email message on?

The forum that people convene at is:
http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/NewNitroForum/

And the specific thread is:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=46&start=0

Thank you for your consideration.
John Black

---end of email

Lets see what comes of this.


Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:40 am
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NitroForum Oldster

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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
...sigh...my efforts above may have been a waste. The pages at their website have not been updated since 1999. They may be defunct. However,the email did not bounce (yet) so he may receive it and respond anyway.


Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:49 am
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Post Re: Doing, not just talking - a Real World Heinlein project
JohnBlack wrote:
The pages at their website have not been updated since 1999.

In sifting existing sites* for most new projects, I find that a vast number are an incomplete start and have not been touched in years. "www.asoundandafurysignifyingnothing.com"

*I mistyped "sties" here and almost left it.

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"Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders." - Luther
In the end, I found Heinlein is finite. Thus, finite analysis is needed.


Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:47 am
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