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From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years 
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
BillMullins wrote:
It's been a while since I've read it, but is this the case with Ricky and Dan in Door into Summer? And even if it is true, it would be incumbent upon the adult to back away, as fast as possible.
That particular case always gave me the willies more than anything in TEFL.

I've never thought there was the slightest implied inappropriateness in Door. No less than when an older woman smiles at a young girl and says "you're developing a beautiful figure, young lady" or when a teenage boy tells his friend that so-and-so's younger sister is going to be "hot" one day. We're all sexual creatures, self-aware of that fact certainly by age 10 or 11. Ricky is about 11 years old (and girls develop physically and mentally faster than boys at that age). Dan gives her PLENTY of time to live her life and meet boys (and possibly change her mind about taking the Sleep, etc.) by asking her to be 21 when they meet again. (He turns down her offer to live with her and her grandmother. Of course that would be inappropriate, considering her feelings for him.) And SHE proposes to HIM, not the other way around. He never touches her or says anything icky, as far as I remember. I think some readers (Panshin...) basically just think it's weird for a 30 year old man to HANG OUT so much with a (very intelligent and mature) 11 year old girl. I think it could be considered a little unusual, but as every reader knows, Daniel Boone Davis is a shining example of honor and integrity-- probably my favorite RAH protagonist. Hard to believe that RAH supposedly wrote this masterwork in 13 days.


Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:18 am
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
This didn't occur to me when I read the book when I was much younger, but it does seem odd now. Ricky is 11 when Dan asks her to wait 10 years and take the Long Sleep. She has 10 years in which to meet boys and yet during that whole time she doesn't lose her desire for Dan. That's a helluva crush. And then there's this part of their conversation:

Quote:
She would not look up and her voice was so low that I could barely hear her. But I did hear her. "If I do... will you marry me?"

My ears roared and the lights flickered. But I answered steadily and much louder than she had spoken. "Yes, Ricky. That's what I want. That's why I'm doing this."


Okay, I know he already knew that they had already were-going-to-be married... and an 11 year-old can have a crush like that... it's still a little off.


Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:17 am
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
PeterScott wrote:
This didn't occur to me when I read the book when I was much younger, but it does seem odd now. Ricky is 11 when Dan asks her to wait 10 years and take the Long Sleep. She has 10 years in which to meet boys and yet during that whole time she doesn't lose her desire for Dan. That's a helluva crush. [...]
Okay, I know he already knew that they had already were-going-to-be married... and an 11 year-old can have a crush like that... it's still a little off.

Except for one critical out: it was absolute inescapable destiny! :) With closed-loop time travel, as per this book, Dan WAS going to marry Ricky. He may not have been 100% positive himself, but she was ALREADY married to him in the future; he just hadn't checked the details last time he was there. Ha, so there.


Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:59 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
Something about the relationship in Door Into Summer seems to have been overlooked, or at least bypassed in the general context of this thread: NOTHING about the relationship between Dan and Ricky is "incest." They aren't related. He is "Uncle Danny" only as a family courtesy; Ricky is his longtime friend and partner's daughter.

So the issues with age difference are there, but not incest.

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Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:08 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
I have a hard time seeing little Ricky Ticki Tavi as jailbait. The relationship only seems a little wierd in the context of what Heinlein wrote much later. Eh?

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Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:27 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
JamesGifford wrote:
Something about the relationship in Door Into Summer seems to have been overlooked, or at least bypassed in the general context of this thread: NOTHING about the relationship between Dan and Ricky is "incest." They aren't related. He is "Uncle Danny" only as a family courtesy; Ricky is his longtime friend and partner's daughter.

So the issues with age difference are there, but not incest.


That's OK Jim, the discussion has morphed. As far as I know, there has been no incest in any polys around here, either -- and no co-opting of the underage.

Just as opponents of variations on marriage usually drag pederasty into their rants, so a topic about adults that is not 1-to-1 seems to slide into variants that are not only illegal, but also more perverse. The only perversity in Door is that Danny agrees that he wants to marry Ricky -- who is sitting right there and eleven years old. He will do it the right-and-legal way, waiting until she is 21 -- but his inner reaction is extreme.

OK, Heinlein seems to have a major fantasy of girl-jumps-boy.


Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:50 am
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
TinaBlack wrote:
OK, Heinlein seems to have a major fantasy of girl-jumps-boy.

I totally disagree.

My take on this was that his reaction was always one of his knowing, or least thinking that he knew, that she was someone who would never betray him.


Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:05 am
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
DavidWrightSr wrote:
TinaBlack wrote:
OK, Heinlein seems to have a major fantasy of girl-jumps-boy.

I totally disagree.

My take on this was that his reaction was always one of his knowing, or least thinking that he knew, that she was someone who would never betray him.


The anti-Belle business doesn't account for a roaring in the ears.

Disagreeing won't make it less frequent. Ricky. The great-niece in Time for the Stars. Joan Eunice. The mystery seductress of Stranger. Laz. Lor. Dora. Hamadryad. Pattycake.


Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:17 am
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
Bill Patterson wrote:
The Rickie that marries Dan is of age.
Yes, but the the Ricky that has a very intense crush on someone 18 years older is not of age, and Dan doesn't find it the least bit odd.

AlexHergensheimer wrote:
I think some readers (Panshin...) basically just think it's weird for a 30 year old man to HANG OUT so much with a (very intelligent and mature) 11 year old girl.
It IS weird.

AlexHergensheimer wrote:
With closed-loop time travel, as per this book, Dan WAS going to marry Ricky.
Was it truly closed-loop? It seems as if the experiment with Leonard Vincent allowed the future to be changed.

I'm not saying that anything done or implied was sexually immoral -- just that it gave me the willies. Dan even says (on p. 24 of the Signet edition) "I thought it was a game we were playing . . . so far as I knew, her being "my girl" was just a sophisticated game we were playing." If I had an 11 year old daughter, and a single 29 year old guy was hanging around, and the daughter seemed to have a such a crush, I'd limit their contact. But that's just me.

One other note: Ricky's full name is Frederica Virginia Gentry, and her nickname is Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. Didn't RAH call his wife (Virginia) "Ticky"? Is there a case to be made that RAH is projecting his relationship with his wife onto the Dan/Ricky relationship?


Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:46 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
BillMullins wrote:
One other note: Ricky's full name is Frederica Virginia Gentry, and her nickname is Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. Didn't RAH call his wife (Virginia) "Ticky"? Is there a case to be made that RAH is projecting his relationship with his wife onto the Dan/Ricky relationship?

I don't know about projecting, but he's certainly reusing some bits of reality there. Perhaps it was more of an inside joke than anything else, since her childhood nickname was not commonly known to their then-present circle (as far as I know).

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In the end, I found Heinlein is finite. Thus, finite analysis is needed.


Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:14 pm
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