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From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years 
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
If one were to use the simple term "offspring", the pairings would be rife, and include Ira/Hamadryad, possibly Ishtar/Tamara, Brian/Nancy, Lazarus/Maureen//Laz//Lor//[Dora]. The possibility of a Deety/Jake child is also mentioned, but not dwelled on at length. In Cat Who Walks Through Walls it seems that such a child is a family member.

Oddly enough, he depicts sibling incest as negative [Pris/Don], while all occasions of parent/child are depicted as benign [ok, ok -- the visual of a Teddy Roosevelt Brian "licking his lips" over Nancy is just one visual too much]. In the real world, the power imbalance usually makes parent-child negative -- that and the fact that it seems to start way too early in childhood rather than waiting until the offspring are teens. I'd be curious what sort of experiences self-reporters discussed -- and I wonder how many would consider a parent a benign experience.

P.S. Almost every oldest Boomer child was made into a little grownup as mom and dad continued to spawn madly. It Was Not Fun. I was ready to be emancipated by the time I was 10, and my parents essentially handed me my freedom when I was 14.


Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:18 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
TinaBlack wrote:
If one were to use the simple term "offspring", the pairings would be rife, and include Ira/Hamadryad, possibly Ishtar/Tamara, Brian/Nancy, Lazarus/Maureen//Laz//Lor//[Dora]. The possibility of a Deety/Jake child is also mentioned, but not dwelled on at length. In Cat Who Walks Through Walls it seems that such a child is a family member.

Oddly enough, he depicts sibling incest as negative [Pris/Don], while all occasions of parent/child are depicted as benign [ok, ok -- the visual of a Teddy Roosevelt Brian "licking his lips" over Nancy is just one visual too much]. In the real world, the power imbalance usually makes parent-child negative -- that and the fact that it seems to start way too early in childhood rather than waiting until the offspring are teens. I'd be curious what sort of experiences self-reporters discussed -- and I wonder how many would consider a parent a benign experience.

P.S. Almost every oldest Boomer child was made into a little grownup as mom and dad continued to spawn madly. It Was Not Fun. I was ready to be emancipated by the time I was 10, and my parents essentially handed me my freedom when I was 14.

One of the peculiarities of the Future History whenyou get out to the time of TEFL is that every Howard is a direct and multiply reinforced descendant of Lazarus Long -- which is to say, all of humanity in the cosmos. LL can't have sex without (again technical, genetic) incest; it isn't possible.

Sibling incest -- well, there's Lapis Lazuli and Lorelei Lee which is something else entirely.


Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:37 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
Well, for those of us who know fundamentalist Christians, there's a strain of them who are happier accepting that Adam and Eve's children committed incest than accepting evolution....

According to fundamentalists, of course, we're all related and committing incest, just at a safe remove...except for those people in the south with the funny names and bad hair...


Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:59 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
And it's all relative... I was surprised to hear the term 'jailbait' used so much when I came to America, because it was virtually unknown in Britain, where the age of consent was (still is, I suppose) 16. And there was a much more laissez faire attitude to what went on even a couple of years younger than that. But in the USA, and especially now, the moral outrage over anything going on before the magical age of 18 is so palpable.

And what's with the jail on statutory rape (that term doesn't exist in Britain, why call a consensual act rape) for the teachers who seduced 17 year-old boys? Years ago we had a different word for boys who were bedded by older women... we called them "lucky".


Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:54 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
RobertJames wrote:
I point out that in all the incestuous instances between parent and child in Heinlein's work, it is the child that initiates the contact....or attempts to....


It's been a while since I've read it, but is this the case with Ricky and Dan in Door into Summer? And even if it is true, it would be incumbent upon the adult to back away, as fast as possible.

That particular case always gave me the willies more than anything in TEFL.


Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:13 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
It's not quite that bad. The cops have a totally laissez-faire attitude toward sex between partners who are two years apart in age. Crossing the magic 18 line can make one of them an adult, but with an ongoing relationship, the cops still don't care.

Others may care, but in MO the law is clear -- partners who are close in age get a free pass legally.


Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:15 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
BillMullins wrote:
RobertJames wrote:
I point out that in all the incestuous instances between parent and child in Heinlein's work, it is the child that initiates the contact....or attempts to....


It's been a while since I've read it, but is this the case with Ricky and Dan in Door into Summer? And even if it is true, it would be incumbent upon the adult to back away, as fast as possible.

That particular case always gave me the willies more than anything in TEFL.


Spider does it again in Variable Star with Evelyn. There is a little clue -- the phrase "rickety all through" occurs in Time for the Stars when Tom's great grand niece decides to take HIM on -- and in VS it's a hint that Little Evelyn is laying for Joel.

Ah, time travel -- the way to transform an "adorable" girl-child into someone who can be had with impunity.

So how do you feel about the Gretchen byplay in Cat?


Last edited by TinaBlack on Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:21 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
RobertJames wrote:
Well, I've known at least three instances of a parent turning a child into their "partner" without it becoming physical, to the best of my knowledge. I've heard more than one psych person refer to "emotional incest" as a term of description.

The concept is new to me, at least by that name, probably because my formal psych training ended in 1992 and the main popular-audience books about it (by Kenneth Adams and Patricia Love) were both published in 1991. During my training the addiction model was all the rage, inappropriate parent/child relationships like this were described as "codependent," and the sexual aspects weren't highlighted. The field evolves to embrace and reflect the cultural concerns of the day, and I haven't kept up.

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Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:41 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
BillPatterson wrote:
...the laws of our particular society have used some particularly noxious Victorian sentimentality to push the legal definition of childhood all the way to 18 (in most states). i.e., well in to the time of life most societies through most of history have regarded as adulthood.

A cop was cruising through the local lovers' lane late one night, and thought he saw something unusual. As he approached one car, the interior light was on, and he saw a boy in the front seat reading a magazine and a girl in the back seat knitting. Overwhelmed with curiosity, he knocked on the window with his flashlight.

"Son," he said, "what the heck are you two doing?"

"Well, sir, I'm reading a magazine and she's knitting."

Not yet feeling enlightened, the cop asked him, "How old are you?" The boy said, "I'm 20, sir." "How old is *she*?" he asked.

The boy looked at his watch and said, "In about 20 minutes, she'll be 18."

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Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:47 pm
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Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
BillMullins wrote:
RobertJames wrote:
I point out that in all the incestuous instances between parent and child in Heinlein's work, it is the child that initiates the contact....or attempts to....


It's been a while since I've read it, but is this the case with Ricky and Dan in Door into Summer? And even if it is true, it would be incumbent upon the adult to back away, as fast as possible.

That particular case always gave me the willies more than anything in TEFL.

I've never quite understood that: there is no sex even implied with a minor iin DITS. The time travel gimmick is used to iron out the age differences. The Rickie that marries Dan is of age.


Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:45 am
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