View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:35 pm



Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 61
Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
BillMullins wrote:
Was it truly closed-loop? It seems as if the experiment with Leonard Vincent allowed the future to be changed.

Yeah, the one complaint I've always had with the book. I think RAH was afraid his perfectly-crafted closed-loop story would bring up questions of free will, so he dropped an unconfirmed hint about Da Vinci. Suggesting that Leonard Vincent was Leonardo Da Vinci limits the originality and brilliance of the simple story, IMHO.
BillMullins wrote:
I'm not saying that anything done or implied was sexually immoral -- just that it gave me the willies. Dan even says (on p. 24 of the Signet edition) "I thought it was a game we were playing . . . so far as I knew, her being "my girl" was just a sophisticated game we were playing." If I had an 11 year old daughter, and a single 29 year old guy was hanging around, and the daughter seemed to have a such a crush, I'd limit their contact. But that's just me.

Sounds like you'd be a good parent, unlike Belle. I think Dan knew it was weird, and never ever considered any type of relationship with Ricky until the end of the book. I think that yes, as suggested earlier in the thread, it is easier to see weirdness here in light of RAH's later books.
BillMullins wrote:
One other note: Ricky's full name is Frederica Virginia Gentry, and her nickname is Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. Didn't RAH call his wife (Virginia) "Ticky"? Is there a case to be made that RAH is projecting his relationship with his wife onto the Dan/Ricky relationship?

Probably, or at least imagining his intelligent and sweet wife as a young girl. I think he calls her Tikki in Tramp Royale.


Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:14 am
Profile
Heinlein Nexus

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:05 am
Posts: 375
Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
Y'know, I'm not sure if we aren't missing a cultural strain we've let go, because of the creep factor. There are any number of movies and books from that period (twenties through fifties) wherein an older man plays the game of being the "boyfriend" or "fiancee" of a much younger girl. True, these days we go "ick" and take the child away, but back then, when sexual abuse was largely left out of the public discourse, it was seen as charming and normal to have that kind of relationship.

It still floats up here and there -- my daughter used to tell everyone she was going to marry me when she grew up, until she discovered that wasn't allowed.

I think it's more likely Heinlein is playing with that fairly common event, and as he so often did, carried it to its logical limit (and beyond).

One might also consider that these two people were the only ones who were in a trusting situation, where they weren't betrayed by each other. They're both hurt by Belle and the marriage....

I still find it unsettling that an 11-year old decides on the course of her life with such certainty, but then, they do that...until reality intrudes. But the object of her crush disappears, and this prevents the natural process of growing out of it. Rikki lives her adolescence with an idealized lover, who isn't around to disappoint her, and whom she might have compared each boy her own age with unfavorably, as there was no opportunity for comparison with the real thing, only her idealized image.

Now, none of that's in the book, and I am more unsettled by Dan saying it's what he wants...but then, he's turning to Rikki precisely because of the unconditional, asexual nature of the relationship. It's love he wants, not sex; in no way does he violate the taboos Heinlein always followed between minor and adult. Rikki is a free agent when they reunite, and she could have turned him down then....

That said, and given all the conversation about the nature of this relationship, I have to suspect Heinlein did this all deliberately, to get his readers pondering the nature of adulthood and love, and all the other things we've kicked around....


Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:13 am
Profile
Centennial Attendee
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 198
Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
Maybe the era was so innocent people would not think of it that way - there was a movie called "Lili" - I remember loving this as a child and people brought their kids so all of this must have been done fairly subtly - as I had NO idea an of this was in the plot but remember singing the songs to it as a really young kid and other people remember going to see it as really young (like about 5) kids

from IMDb wrote:
LILI, the 1953 film starring Leslie Caron in the title role, is one of the first examples of a screenplay being turned into a stage musical (CARNIVAL). Though it is common these days for Broadway to find inspiration in film sources, it was highly unusual at the time. It began life as a short story, with inspiration from the KOOKLA, FRAN AND OLLIE television program. Later made into a dark and unusual novella of sexual awakening, the tale was then adapted for the screen as LILI, a film which became the sleeper hit of 1953, eventually running in the same New York City theatre for almost 2 years. It's one, beautifully utilized song, "Hi Lili, Hi Lo" was an enormous hit and contributed to LILI's popularity.

The story, concerning the sexual and emotional coming of age of a young French girl, is unusual for its Freudian overtones and stark emotional mood. When young Lili (Leslie Caron in a gorgeously crafted and heartbreaking performance) comes to a small French village, looking for a family friend, she is devastated to learn that he has died. Without friends or family, she begs a job from a local merchant who sees her desperation as a sexual opportunity. When the merchant tries to rape Lili, she is saved by Marc, the handsome magician of a traveling carnival (Jean-Pierre Aumont). On Marc she foists all of her adult and childhood needs, her bursting sexuality along with her need to be cared for and loved. Eventually she begins working with the carnival but proves a terrible disappointment as a waitress in the carnival cafe. Lonely and desperate, she attempts to kill herself but is saved once again; this time by Paul the carnival puppeteer (a dashing Mel Ferrer in a fine performance) who speaks to her through his puppets, kindly Carrot Top, vain Marguerite, wily Reynaldo the Fox and innocent Horrible Henry the Giant. Paul, a former dancer, crippled years earlier in an accident, is full of anger and resentment but takes pity on Lili, who is so charmed by the puppets that, like a child, she forgets his presence.

The film explores their turbulent relationship as Lili becomes the star of the Carnival, charming patrons with an uncanny ability to speak to the puppets as if they are real. Complications arise as Paul begins to realize his own affection for Lili, while Lili continues to be infatuated with the magician, who's assistant (Zsa Zsa Gabor) is his wife.

With fine performances all around and an unusual atmosphere, the film has something of a cult following and is highly regarded for its frank and emotional nature. With its full-color cinematography, adorable puppets and carnival setting, this film might be mistaken for a children's story but deals, rather, with powerful adult themes. LILI may seem tame by today's standards, but given the conservativism of the 1950's as well as the strict production code in force at the time, LILI is rather shocking.

There is a very unusual dream sequence late in the movie which attempts to explore certain aspects of Lili's psyche through dance. This sequence is not entirely successful, but manages to get its point across and leads directly to the film's moving final moment. It's subtle treatment of a difficult subject is inspiring. The loss of innocence, the retreat from childhood and the desperate need for someone to love prove compelling subjects in a film that is, though imperfect, haunting.


Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:28 pm
Profile
Heinlein Nexus

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:05 am
Posts: 375
Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
This would be a perfect example of what I was talking about. It also runs the opposite way, so to speak, when you have grown men describing their mothers as their "best girl."


Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:12 pm
Profile
Centennial Organizer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:34 pm
Posts: 200
Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
RobertJames wrote:
This would be a perfect example of what I was talking about. It also runs the opposite way, so to speak, when you have grown men describing their mothers as their "best girl."


Sorry as I am to remark it, most of the ones I have heard do that are gay. I still remember the one who said to me "You cook as well as -- no, better than my mother. You don't know how unusual it is to say that!"

Oh, I knew all right.


Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:40 pm
Profile
Heinlein Nexus

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:05 am
Posts: 375
Post Re: From Weirdo to Leading Edge in Just 28 Years
Again, it may be a gay thing now, but back in the twenties through the fifties, you find straight men saying it in movies. Gary Cooper, "Pride of the Yankees", for example.


Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:00 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF