View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:14 am



Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on him? 
Author Message

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:59 am
Posts: 7
Post was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on him?
was he?

his latest books (i guss starship troopers have soem of the ideas od atlas shruged?)was suposed to be civil libertarin did he like Ayn Rand ideas or agree whit the ideas of the less randriod/dogmatic foks like tibor mahacn or jan narveson ?would ha have been a citizen of new utopa ?

did not much of his writings other then star ship troopers that are some of the we rule the world better then other and we know whats best(and we like survlisits and industralsits) that atlas shrugged have maybe be more in coommen whit The Fountainhead a outsider that dont mind pepol or comfortism (maybe a hedonist/stotic/exisensalsit)


are new-utopia.com based on his ideas?
the invetsrores was suposed to build a city state but have faild some investores have been sued becuse ther offic was justa normal hosue in a suburb dallas
or is it a fraud? (it was clean from sec in 2001 but after that the servers have been moved servral times texas/floridsa/england
the build house and bussnis plan have been closed dowen (at least ther server in scotdale and florida )that sombody have sued ther invstores ?
or class action? or a settelment happrend? for the project
(they was suposed to not have mony in 10 yeasr ago the founders and investores but now many bank empolyed have giving lisits of bermuda/antigua/arbua bank acunntes to the govermnet...)now it look bit like a copy of a dubai project i gusse not a place for heinlein ....


sorry for my bad enghlis
hope get any anwser try to find out abut this new utopia project for long time on internet and wonderd if heinlien was just a way to make the fraud/posibbel citizens biger...


Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:07 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Northern VA
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
frankchamler wrote:
hope get any anwser try to find out abut this new utopia project for long time on internet and wonderd if heinlien was just a way to make the fraud/posibbel citizens biger...


A long existing saying in the US is "There's a sucker born every minute." Attribution is hazy. But things, particularly in these days of the internet, like the Nigerian 419 scams, and the New Utopia "project" you're asking about operate on the assumption that if you cast a large enough net, the minuscule percentage (10ths of 10ths) of actual suckers you catch can make for a nice income. Spam email and websites offer scammers their realization of a life long dream of a world-wide net.

The people you mention were all smart enough not to have been reeled into something like the new utopia scam, however it is trying to sell itself.

Unless you work fraud investigations for the country you live in, don't bother with thinking about/researching New Utopia. Just file it in the same file folder you put the Nigerian 419 scams, and forget about it. It has nothing to do with Heinlein, Ayn Rand, or anyone else.

_________________
OJ III


Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:20 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:22 am
Posts: 559
Location: Reno, NV
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
Heinlein had read Rand, and thought she proposed some interesting ideas, but he was no more an objectivist (or "student of objectivism") than I am. Further, while he was quite sympathetic to the ideas proposed by libertarianism (a much wider philosophy than objectivism), as George Rule states he didn't think that they would work in a large, complex society. That's one reason he preferred a less crowded, less complex, more frontier environment, at least in his books. I can't imagine the real Heinlein not being up to his neck in New York avant-garde culture in the 1930s, or in Hollywood in the 1940s. He needed and liked social interaction far more than most writers I know. (Including myself.)

I think that the "New Utopia" stands about an equal chance of being an outright scam and being a highly implausible pipe dream of some individuals who are *much* less capable of making a society work than Heinlein would have been. Definitely keep your money in your pocket.

_________________
Catherine Jefferson <tw86034@ergosphere.net>
Home Page: http://www.ergosphere.net


Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:59 am
Profile WWW
Heinlein Nexus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:10 am
Posts: 2099
Location: Pacific NorthWest
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
sakeneko wrote:
I can't imagine the real Heinlein not being up to his neck in New York avant-garde culture in the 1930s, or in Hollywood in the 1940s. He needed and liked social interaction far more than most writers I know.


Hmm. How does that stack up against living at Bonny Doon? That's a pretty damn isolated place.


Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:11 pm
Profile WWW
PITA Bred
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 2400
Location: The Quiet Earth
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
PeterScott wrote:
How does that stack up against living at Bonny Doon? That's a pretty damn isolated place.

It's also 20 and more years later, and across the divide from being a slightly known person in several circles to being one of the most famous in one. I can understand that shaded house location and 8-foot fence.

_________________
"Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders." - Luther
In the end, I found Heinlein is finite. Thus, finite analysis is needed.


Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:21 pm
Profile
NitroForum Oldster

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:05 am
Posts: 233
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
I've heard the quote "there's a sucker born every minute" generally attributed to P.T Barnum ( the circus huckster)


Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:23 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Northern VA
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
I did a google on "There is a sucker born every minute", and two of the resulting websites, Wikipedia and another, were detailed enough in the question of it being correctly attributed to P.T. Barnum to lead to that "Attribution is hazy." in my OP. Several possible alternative attributions were suggested in each. Surprising me, my old debunking standby, Snopes.com, is silent on the subject of quotes from P.T.Barnum, and a search on snopes for this one, contracted/uncontracted, turned up zip.

The Wiki article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_ ... ery_minute

_________________
OJ III


Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:14 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:22 am
Posts: 559
Location: Reno, NV
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
PeterScott wrote:
sakeneko wrote:
I can't imagine the real Heinlein not being up to his neck in New York avant-garde culture in the 1930s, or in Hollywood in the 1940s. He needed and liked social interaction far more than most writers I know.


Hmm. How does that stack up against living at Bonny Doon? That's a pretty damn isolated place.


The road that he lived on wasn't a major thoroughfare. But he lived within a ten minute drive of UC Santa Cruz and a rather busy and social little town. He lived within less than an hour's drive of an urban area of over a million. (San Jose/Silicon Valley). And he lived within easy reach of San Francisco. I know -- I lived within 40 minutes of where he did for over a decade, and one of my favorite places to "play" was along Highways 1 (the coast near Bonny Doon) and 9 (the Santa Cruz mountains, where Bonny Doon is located). I've been by his old house a number of times, have pictures of it somewhere, and know the rather twisty little streets in that area.

I'd agree that he seemed to like his privacy increasingly more as he grew older. If you look at where and how he lived as a young guy, and his life as an adult, however, you don't get the picture of "reclusive author" at all. He *liked* the bright lights and glamour. Many writers that I know really do not. (I just tolerate them, prefer a small group of friends to a parade any day.)

_________________
Catherine Jefferson <tw86034@ergosphere.net>
Home Page: http://www.ergosphere.net


Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:17 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:59 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
they allso link to somthing like soveringe citizens and a (i think)subculture that have servral citizens special in 3. world country that have less rules and berucatcy and of course setup bank acounts in difrent country to avoid taxes or tax shelter companys i guss thats somthing for henline ppl that want a more frontier like places ?

the counstetuion of new utopia allso have some montana milita (other then the your owen army thing) do my owen thing dont bother others as long as i pay for my self and make my owen comnuity wher i can live on my owen like heinlin ?

(use you owen gun use your owen currecncy if you want,belive and do your strange ideas if you dont bother me )
and of cousre the eh sex thing of heinlinen like a fronier place i guss ?

(my culture have not been a froniter since abut year 900 when you duty was to kill sombdoy that killed your frind or familiy and you could tlak to you local clan leader that behave like contracts maker in a anarcho capitalis dream (a AC guy wrote abut it in 1979/78 BOOK forgot his name. so not sure how a froniter place would work )
btw talk to many amarican backapckers that say the same objectvism good ideas but not realiztic

heinlein was more of a suvavlist kind of libertain ?

rpe me off once shame on me ripe me of twice shame of you
eh the main investore/scamer did live in a expensiv part of a city in ohklamhoma last time i did check ...
when the project have been dealyed many times i guss sombody want ther mony back.. becuse they did once write that you could buy a house in the island and had bank/trust/company laws that you could also make (the more ecsntric thing was a space ship regsiterion a other heinlien refreance ?)
since they marketing it as member of mensa members and some of the writng can been look on as intrested as outsiders that look on the world difrenet somthing that foks that have hige iq do (but i guss allso narcsists and psychpath do...) will they not get 150 iq perosn as citizens and then be sued by them?

(becuse both ppl that have iq 150 and ppl that have iq190 can be member of mensa )?yes been ther done that . i am intreested if anybody else then SEC got them?
or some other agency or gruop/organzation
(anything else that can sue them ?get ther mony back i8n the country wher the project have ther office ?class action by charter citizens or invetsores menntion anywher on the internet ?)becuse why would a fraud /project close dowen ther servers if in a 1-2 year long period of it have been sucsesful in 15 years ?

(if they did close it dowen after the first lawsiute or just 7 years they would be less likely to get a angry powerfull investore/citizen)sombody say that greedy ppl never think they get enugh they countinen until get busted and changeng ther real life post adres and co fraudster/invetsoers get out of the project a other sign?

ip snifers and internet security foks will can track dowen the ip adres and the physical adres of those foks special when they did market the project as a place for anymosue suerfing and crypted net accses ?
it said it have 1200 citizens ( i guss not alle of them are fail desperat foks that dont care abut there mony) somthing that have incrased since 20001 when it was just 2000 and becuse it do send oute pasport and some kind of dipolma they are real numbers in the beging it was 500 the video was froma real office that ahve real paintings of the ideas and a real office sign in a caymen island building nigarin fraudtster did not get 10 artickels abut ther project in europen and amarican newspaper...


Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:23 am
Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:01 pm
Posts: 4
Post Re: was heimlein a objectvist and are new utopia based on hi
I am not entirely sure I completely comprehend your post. The forum is giving me a hard time creating messages, it is seemingly at random ignoring keystrokes, so I need to proof read like crazy to make sure I don't post really strange things (and yet I still miss a plenty like "new" instead of "knew"). Having said that to illustrate difficulties I can understand, I still have problems with some of your writing. I'm not sure, are those typing issues, translator issues or a new take on spelling?
So... many reasons I might have misunderstood...
This is what I think I understood:
You assume that Heinlein was proposing new ideas of a utopian society, not sure if or in how far you relate them the old platonic ideas. And you also assume those to have found some kind of realization in the internet - and they as such have found opposition.

From all my reading I was thinking, that Heinlein most of all was in the business of asking questions. I also thought that it probably would be fair to assume that he attempted to raise awareness in a very broad, general sense. He saw a lot of wrong, or may be - in a morally neutral term - a lot that needed improvement or change. (Here http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080303/howey-a.shtml is a really awesome article on Stranger in which the author shows how Heinlein understood that certain concepts are formed by sociological ideologies and how societies can be conceived that are different.) But Heinlein never was just a 'nay' sayer. If he saw something he thought needed correction he attempted to reach beyond pointing that phenomenon out, he offered a constructive approach, a kind of "see what I can come up with". And in doing both he almost challenged the reader, it always appeared to me as if he was right there, talking to me "what? you don't like what I came up with? Well... then do it frigging better and don't waste my time". And all of that was a second layer to his writing, his first and foremost intent was to offer "something" that was worth the money the customer paid - and be it "merely" entertainment.

Putting all that together: Heinlein wasn't in the business of giving answers, but he was in the business of asking questions. So if there is any attempt to create a kind of utopia (fictional or real) it is only in response to Heinlein, but the formative ideas are those of the reader her- or himself in response to the writing.


Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:53 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 10 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF