http://www.heinleinsociety.org/thsnexus/

1945 Letter to FJA
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/thsnexus/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=697
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Author:  georule [ Fri May 28, 2010 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

And of course when things get bad enough, "the man on horseback" instinct kicks in --how much better if you can try to sell yourself on the idea that it isn't *entirely* The Dictator you're selling your country out to for temporary relief.

Even during the American Civil War there were often reocurring rumours of a military coup against Lincoln brewing when things looked particularly bad. First it was going to be Fremont, and then it was going to be McClellan. I may have missed a couple in between.

There is no convincing evidence that either man seriously considered active participation in such a movement. . . but the evidence is less convincing that neither was willing to be drafted if "somehow" the government fell on its own without them having to engage in active treason before hand. And fairly convincing evidence that both were quite sure they could do a better job than Mr. Lincoln should that come to pass. :)

Author:  JamesGifford [ Fri May 28, 2010 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

BillPatterson wrote:
There's a subject I want to understand some day, but it's going to take a lot of research: exactly why was it that the fascists of both Italy and Germany were seen as a "healthy" new phenomena when they came on the scene in the 1920's

Pinning it down to scholarly satisfaction might take some doing, but I think the explanation is relatively simple. Europe was utterly smashed by WWI and was expected to take decades to recover. (And perhaps never fully, a viewpoint that could be said to have come true in the rise of constitutional states that replaced all the various monarchies.)

Yet in a single decade, Hitler and Mussolini turned their nations into prosperous, orderly, well-run states and almost completely swept away the war's devastation. From certain viewpoints, it could be seen as miraculous and a vindication for the notions of fascism. The 1920s were an idealistic time, and the 1930s a time of looking anywhere for a solution to the US's massive woes.

I think that's it in a nutshell, although a few mighty oaks could be grown from it (and probably have).

IMHO, anyone who was still admiring fascism by the mid-1930s was either deluded or not paying attention - or deeply enthused over the master race notion.

Author:  JackKelly [ Fri May 28, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

JamesGifford wrote:
- or deeply enthused over the master race notion.


Bingo

Author:  AlexHergensheimer [ Fri May 28, 2010 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

don't know how i feel about this. RAH seems a bit high-horsed here, especially considering that he could have been doing another trade other than writing fiction.

here's a link to photos of the letter, in case someone missed it

http://io9.com/5550437/heinlein-slammed ... war-effort

Author:  BillMullins [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

After reading the comments on the i09 webpage, I doubt RAH would have any more use for the fans of today than he did those of 1944.

Author:  BillMullins [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

AlexHergensheimer wrote:
don't know how i feel about this. RAH seems a bit high-horsed here, especially considering that he could have been doing another trade other than writing fiction.
For the duration of the war, he WAS doing another trade -- research engineer (having failed to get back into active service).

Author:  BillMullins [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

F. Towner Laney gives a 1950s-era remembrance of Joquel HERE.

The following quote may be of relevance to Heinlein's letter to Ackerman:
Quote:
Joquel spends a couple of pages explaining that his future is fraught with uncertainty because he is a conscientious objector to military service, and so he must really quit fan activity. So far as I know, the nearest ALJ ever got to a conchie camp wa s the LASFS clubroom. But all this does remind me of an occasion in late 1943 when I asked Joquel, in the presence of Ackerman, if it was true he had given money to the 4-F Ackerman to act real physical and pass the Army medical examination so he could s erve in Joquel's place.


California Death Index gives:
Arthur L Joquel b. 9 Feb 1919 d. 31 Mar 1974 Fresno

Author:  JamesGifford [ Fri May 28, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

BillMullins wrote:
F. Towner Laney gives a 1950s-era remembrance of Joquel HERE.

Good god. Fandom. *rubs temples hard*

Laney doesn't give any clue but I could see this pompous idiot jumping atop a table and defending Hitlerini, just to get a rise.

Author:  georule [ Fri May 28, 2010 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

JamesGifford wrote:
IMHO, anyone who was still admiring fascism by the mid-1930s was either deluded or not paying attention - or deeply enthused over the master race notion.


Dachau is established in 1933. But not a single jew is sent there for being a jew until after Krystallnacht in late '38. Those jews that were sent there before that time were sent for being communists or union leaders resisting the regime. And there were quite a few releases after "time served" in that period. Doesn't make it admirable --just a little more understandable why some people were willing to turn a blind eye to it without the advantages we have of knowing where it led.

There was a progression. A horriflcally ugly one, yes, but a progression none the less. As I'm sure you know, the Germans didn't invent the concentration camp (even the Brits in the Boer War didn't --it was the Spanish in Cuba who get the 'honor'). The Germans just took it to its murderous conclusion --but not until after 1938, and mostly after '39.

Author:  BillPatterson [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1945 Letter to FJA

JamesGifford wrote:
BillMullins wrote:
F. Towner Laney gives a 1950s-era remembrance of Joquel HERE.

Good god. Fandom. *rubs temples hard*

Laney doesn't give any clue but I could see this pompous idiot jumping atop a table and defending Hitlerini, just to get a rise.

Yes, even among the *characters* of LASFS in the early 40's, ALJII seems to stand out (and not in a good way).

Joquel's daughter runs a tribute Facebook page for him, mainly memorializing his world-peace activities.

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