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Heinlein Readers Discussion Group

10/30/1999

... high grading from the past and for the future ...

'Space Cadet' and 'Red Planet'

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1.0 Subject: Reminder--Oct 28th Mtng--Space Cadet & Red Planet

Date: Tue, 19 October 1999 03:15 AM EDT

From: AGplusone

The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group

Notice of Next Meeting

Thursday, October 28, 1999, 9 PM to midnight, ET on AOL in (click the bright blue hyperlink): The BC Salon III and Saturday, October 30, 1999, from 8 to 10 PM, ET, on the Internet in AIM chatroom.

Topic: " ... high grading from the past and for the future ..."

Readings: Heinlein's 'juvenile' novels Space Cadet ('48) and Red Planet ('50)

Other recommended readings: Heinlein's short stories "Misfit" ('39), "The Roads Must Roll" ('40), and "The Long Watch" ('47); and H.G. Wells' novel A Modern Utopia, particularly the 'Samuri' chapter.

Robert Heinlein spent some of the years between his Navy medical discharge and 1939, when his first short-story was published, trying to develop a Colorado silver mine. That enterprise ended when, the legend goes, his partner was machine gunned to death.

In mining parlence of the times, a practice that could result in death was this: a worked-out claim was sold to newcomers after being 'salted' with false evidence of rich ore, by loading a shotgun with silver dust and nuggets and firing it into raw rock. Extracted samples porduce assay results of a rich find and deceive the unwary. The process of recycling silver already mined to attrack the unwary is also called "high-grading." During his years of writing, Heinlein frequently re-worked themes developed years earlier, and called it 'high-grading' when he did it himself. The novels Space Cadet and Red Planet are two examples. In Space Cadet, he reworked Wellsian themes expressed earlier in "Misfit" and "The Roads Must Roll." Later in his famous novel Stranger In A Strange Land, he would rework the setting and themes first developed by himself in Red Planet.

As you read these works, please post your thoughts as replies to this lead-off post. Remember, the more pre-meeting message board posts we make the more our chats are lively and worthwhile. See you in about nine days.

David

-- AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

1.01 Subject: Re: Reminder--Oct 28th Mtng--Space Cadet & Red Planet

Date: Sat, 23 October 1999 02:49 PM EDT

From: TAWN3

I have a business meeting that night and will join the group in process as soon as I get home. Tawn3

A good and sound argument is preferable to a good sounding one, but a little propaganda sometimes helps in a pinch. Tawn3

1.1 Subject: Re: Reminder--Oct 28th Mtng--Space Cadet & Red Planet

Date: Wed, 20 October 1999 08:29 PM EDT

From: AGplusone

I posted: ...During his years of writing, Heinlein frequently re-worked themes developed years earlier, and called it 'high-grading' when he did it himself. The novels Space Cadet and Red Planet are two examples. In Space Cadet, he reworked Wellsian themes expressed earlier in "Misfit" and "The Roads Must Roll." Later in his famous novel Stranger In A Strange Land, he would rework the setting and themes first developed by himself in Red Planet....

I plan to read and post concerning Space Cadet for what remains of this week and then go on to Red Planet next week. A suggestion: if you've read Space Cadet before, it might be fun to read "Misfit" and especially "The Roads Must Roll" first before your re-read. Bill mentioned once and now reminds me again that the Wellsian thought Heinlein reworked comes from A Modern Utopia, especially the Samuri chapter. I'll try to dig a copy of that out of the library or somewhere so we can discuss some of that, if I find time between now and next meeting.

See you all at the chat!

David

-- AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

1.2 Subject: Re: Reminder--Oct 28th Mtng--Space Cadet & Red Planet

Date: Mon, 25 October 1999 08:27 PM EDT

From: Portia1972

"The Roads Must Roll" is one of the earliest of Heinlein's works (or any science fiction) that I recall reading. I admit that I have not read it more than 2 or 3 times, since, and not recently. My books are packed up, and I am stuck with memory. I was impressed with what I felt was an in depth look at the consequences--or at least one part of the consequences-- of a major technology different from ours. In a way, that approach has defined what I think of science fiction, as a genre. It allows us to try on futures and see where they might lead, without actually committing to them; a very socially useful option. Further, after reading "Roads" it would be much harder for a commentator to suggest that some new technology is obviously superior to what we have. The commentator would realize that we do not know what would be better until we think of all the consequences, including unintended ones.If I have read "Space Cadet" nothing about it comes up in my memory, so I have to confine comments to "Roads."

Portia

The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.

---H.L. Menken

1.3 Subject: Re: Reminder--Oct 28th Mtng--Space Cadet & Red Planet

Date: Tue, 26 October 1999 09:15 PM EDT

From: AGplusone

I can't believe no one has any thoughts on either of the two juvenile novels ... Here's a little aside: Tom Corbett -- Space Cadet A note on Space Cadet, the novel:

Grumbles tells us that, after 1950, early network TV contracted to base a series on Space Cadet ('48) but that while he accepted the royalties, RAH declined to have his name associated with the series because he felt the scripts were so bad they had the "high moral standards of soap opera." I suppose that's fair, although at age nine or so I enjoyed "Tom Corbett, Space Cadet," which the series was named.

The series was on several networks from October '50 to September 1952 (and there were some reruns after that into '54). The most accurate sites discussing it seem to be http://www.slick-net.com/space/corbett/index.phtml (but it loads very slowly so be patient) and http://www.solarguard.com/tchome.htm.

It wasn't the first TV series dealing with space, that honor, if honor it be, belonged to the Dumont Network's "Captain Video," which I remember as being very confusing space adventure melodrama--or "space opera." There also was another space opera series called "Space Patrol" which had a "space cadet" named "Happy" played by a snub-nosed character actor who looked a bit like Leo Gorcey ("Mugs McGinnis" or "Mugs Maloney" from the "Dead End Kids") and whose role appealled a lot to the preteen set because he was always doing something incredibly stupid but managing either to be bailed out by Buz Corry, his captain, or to work his way out of it, himself. It also had two nubile actresses playing opposite these paragons of space who wore extremely short skirts and spent much of each episode climbing up ladders. Bet you thought nine year old boys didn't notice such things. "Happy" was the prototype for the insult that crept into our language, "here comes another 'Space Cadet' ... " because of his incredibly stupidity and unreliability.

Tom Corbett wasn't quite as much "fun" for a preteen to watch, but interesting because it was a fairly serious follow-up into notions of space flight, a 'follow-up' because my dad took me to see "Destination Moon," RAH's move, before I ever saw the series. Many of the concepts 'introduced' by Gene Roddenbury in "Star Trek" were borrowed from it.

There were changes in names, and the characters were 'Hollywoodized.' "Tex" Jarmen from the novel becomes "Tom Corbett," the hero and the strong qualities of leadership we see in Oscar in the novel become his (the actor cast as "Tom" was considered a leading man type in the 1950s so his role appreciated while Oscar's diminished and then was transformed--which didn't really result in a vast improvement, because many kids in the '50s thought Tom a little too goody-goody, and called him "Tom Corkbutt"); and, as did the novel, the series begins as the cadets enter the academy; Matt is transformed into his pal "Roger Manning," and could be described as a "loveable" PITA. "Oscar" becomes "Astro," remaining a colonial from Venus; and there was friction between the three because Oscar seems to be 'slow' in his studies and the grade of all three roommates is averaged (a plot conceit that RAH probably thought incredibly ignorant and very possibly offensive!). The colonial from Gandymede never makes it into the TV show. Tom eventually has to put "Roger" into his place by a fistfight. There was a female lead, called "Doctor Joan Dale" who taught the difficult subjects at the Academy that threatened to flunk "Astro" out and invented solutions for the problems they encountered, such as a "hyperdrive," as well as going on adventures of her own. As "Captain Strong," the character of Captain Yancy remains, essentially a father figure, taskmaster, and disciplinarian with an off-screen relationship of some sort with Dr. Joan Dale; and there remains an aloof but concerned Academy Commander, as "Commander Arkwright." The 'Patrol" itself becomes the "Solar Patrol," or "Solar Guards," possibly because the competing series known as "Space Patrol" at about the same time. Willy Ley was technical advisor, so valid concepts of science were introduced into plot lines. I remember generally enjoying it especially as I got closer to a double-digit age. The series resulted in merchandizing spin-offs, several "Tom Corbett--Space Cadet" novels, and a series of comic books, lasting well into the late 1950s. You could send away for a "Space Cadet" patch, which I did, and your mother could sew it on a favorite shirt or jacket.

There is apparently a video available through Warner Distributors, Ltd. Canada of a volume 1, of 90 minutes of episodes from the show.

-- AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

Go to Beginning of Postings

CHAT LOG 10/28/99

SPACE CADET and RED PLANET

You have just entered room "The BC Salon III"

OHostZim:Thursday, October 28, 1999, 5:29:57 PM, PDT ...

OnlineHost: "

RHarr83176" has entered the room.

OHostZim:Hi, Ron, how are you?

RHarr83176: Fantastic and you are wonderful as usual??

OHostZim:Right!

OHostZim:lol

RHarr83176: We are the first ones here tonight??

OHostZim:Just hoping somebody's been reading these two ... especially Space Cadet ...

OHostZim:four minutes early still.

RHarr83176: Read them many times and recently too.

OHostZim:Glad to hear that.

OnlineHost: "Astyanax12" has entered the room.

OHostZim:G'evening, Astyanax, welcome

RHarr83176: Hi, Astynax

OHostZim:Any luck on finding that series on Dick Prescott, Ron?

OHostZim:Be hilarious if it turned out to be a psedonym of Upton Sinclair.

RHarr83176: Not to date, but I am still waiting for the results of their search.

OHostZim:Read a forward to The Jungle that said he wrote a lot of pot-boilers as a young man ... could be true.

RHarr83176: That would be rich if as a child I was influenced by Mr. Sinclair.

OnlineHost: "BPRAL22169" has entered the room.

OHostZim:hehehe

OHostZim:G'evening Bill.

BPRAL22169: Yo, one, yo all.

OHostZim:Astyanax the guest you were bringing?

BPRAL22169: Nice to see you again, Ron.

OnlineHost: "GHmyst" has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Au Contraire, the lady brought herself. I am but the humble bearer of directions.

OHostZim:G'evening Ed ...

BPRAL22169: Mr. Wysocki, how do?

GHmyst: Hi, Bill

RHarr83176: You too, Bill.

GHmyst: Greetings to all

OHostZim:We'll start in a few more minutes ....

BPRAL22169: Very few message board posts for this chat -- I'm surprised.

GHmyst: Well my article covers this one as well

RHarr83176: We wore ourselves out on STRANGER

OHostZim:I was too ... maybe my fault. Spent too much time getting a copy of A Modern Utopia

OnlineHost: "Zhonu" has entered the room.

OHostZim:to write much ....

BPRAL22169: Were you successful?

OHostZim:Hi, Zhonu ... yes, got it day before yesterday. Zhonu: Hi all

BPRAL22169: I believe it's chapter 5 that deals with Wells' Samurai.

OHostZim:Interesting thing .... had a good summary by the editor. Univ of Nebraska Press

BPRAL22169: That might be interesting to read. Caveat: don't expect a direct reference from RAH to Wells.

OHostZim:Anyway ... let's begin.

GHmyst: Go

BPRAL22169: Trot out the macro:

OHostZim:Welcome to the Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group. Tonight our chat subject is RAH's juvenile novels Space Cadet and Red Planet, and comparing them with works written before and after by Heinlein, and others. ::: Any questions before we begin? . . . No, then I have a question: what was the most fascinating thing about the first half of Space Cadet?

GHmyst: Cell phone??

RHarr83176: The tests and especially the one for integrity.

OHostZim:Anything else?

GHmyst: What do you consider dividing point for first half?

OnlineHost: "CandyLC" has entered the room.

OHostZim:Before they go on the mission ... hi, Candy.

GHmyst: OK..when Matt first comes on board and another, older cadet is in charge of rounding them up. Later Matt receives the same assignment, so we see the scene from both viewpoints. CandyLC:Hiya Zim!

OnlineHost: "Seanspanks" has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: spiral pattern showing growth along a cursus.

OHostZim:Hi, Sean ... just starting. Asked for the most intriguing thing in the first half of Space Cadet.

BPRAL22169: How much of it, I wonder, was it an exact reflection of Heinlein's course at USNA? Seanspanks: Hi!

GHmyst: basic outline..concept of academy

OHostZim:(I wondered that too). Anyone remember the required 'seminar on Doubt'? Seanspanks: I'm here in Colorado Springs, near the Space Patrol Academy

RHarr83176: I think to some extent it reflected all academies. Seanspanks: RAH predicted the Cell Phone and the sports pouch in "Space Cadet"..

OHostZim:[aka 'fanny pack' Sean] Seanspanks: "Say, your telephone is ringing." Matt fumbled in his pouch and got out his phone.

GHmyst: Also regarding first half, I have a question for Bill

OHostZim:Ask

GHmyst: In my article, I pointed out the similarity between scenes in Space Cadet and the Heinlein-Laning article "Flight into the Future." I think the Flight stuff came first then used later in Cadet. Your biographical sketch seekms to imply reverse order from that.

BPRAL22169: Let me think about this a second. . . I think the article was written first.

OHostZim:[Note: Bill has an extensive sketch on Heinlein in his new edition of The Heinlein Journal. It's longer and better than anything else published yet, as a biography]

GHmyst: OK, it seems to read the other way in sketch.

BPRAL22169: I think I didn't have the exact chronology at the time I wrote the sketch.

GHmyst: Just wondering; no big deal....

RHarr83176: Zim you are talking about this summers issue??

OHostZim:does anyone know whether there are 'seminars on Doubt' taught at any of our service academies? With topics such as: Resolved: The Patrol Should be Abolished...? I.e., 'gonna lay down our sword and shield' down by the riverside.

RHarr83176: Thank you, I had never connected flight school and hog alley before. Seanspanks: Well, there are class on ethics and stuff.

RHarr83176: Not Navy flight school? But it is rather thoroughly taught in the Cadet barracks.

GHmyst: The only type of class I know about is where they describe a tactical situation and you have to frame a proper order to cover the situation and then it is criticized

OHostZim:Sort of like the PBS program they had a few years back on ethics ...??

RHarr83176: I think RAH once said he had a course in message writing that taught him to write.

OHostZim:I knew that ...but the required Seminar on Doubt was something that intrigued me because it seems to foreshadow all the material that comes during his satires in later writings.

GHmyst: ???

OHostZim:The topics that were suggested: Resolved "monotheism" is foolish .... etc.

RHarr83176: My buddy and I, from flight school, often reminisce on this subject but it was highly informal.

OHostZim:That's different, Arensa's Hog Alley, and the course that was required. Come right next to each other in the chapter, tho, Ron.

OnlineHost: "Leaf81" has entered the room.

OHostZim:Welcome, Leaf

OnlineHost: "Indiana48" has entered the room.

OHostZim:Welcome, this is the Robert Heinlein Reading Group. Tonight we're chatting about two of his early juvenile novels, Space Cadet and Red Planet, as part of an examination of all of the juvenile works. Indiana48: hi Zim

OHostZim:Evening, Indy, nice to see you back. Indiana48: thanks:o)

OHostZim:You had Arensa's 'bull sessions' if I can call them that, but you also had a required course -- the one that Girard told Matt was a trap ... (think you're right, Bill) ... to get cadets to specify thoughts that might be enough to disqualify themselves from a commission. I don't think Girard was correct about that, tho. Leaf81: Hi Indy& Zim Indiana48: hi leaf

BPRAL22169: It might well be that Arensa's informal debating society was a personal formalization of an informal tradition. Sometimes these things catch on; other times they fade away.

OnlineHost: "Leaf81" has left the room.

RHarr83176: Thank you Bill, that was the point I was trying to make: RAH made an explicit incident out of what was in reality part of the total environment

OHostZim:He and Lansing had a little group that used to get together informally ... read Cabell, etc.

GHmyst: I wonder who else was in that group..???

OHostZim:that sounds like Arensa's bunch, but the formal required class was something else ...

BPRAL22169: Not necessarily interested in disqualifying them, I think. Highly rigid structures like the navy have to value obedience -- but they absolutely need thinking outside the box -- which they cannot "officially" tolerate.

OHostZim:The thinking outside the box is the major point ... and something that seemed unique or uniquely RAH thinking ... was it a critique of the service academies, do you think? Or did we have such classes? Or have them now?

BPRAL22169: No, I think RAH was observing a training "subtext." Just speculation on my part, of course.

RHarr83176: I don't know about the 1920's but the Navy in the mid to late 50s was the biggest bunch of non-conformist I ever saw. But, toeing the line when it came to duty and the need for "apparent conformity"

BPRAL22169: That same conforming/nonconforming shows up in The Right Stuff, too.

RHarr83176: We did our duty and never embarrassed the "old man." Indiana48: exactly

BPRAL22169: Less esprit de corps and more interpersonal competition.

OHostZim:In a little later part of the story, Matt wants to resign and join the Marines ... he's told he's too smart to be a Marine officer. The business about the 30 IQ points. Anyone wonder about that, too?

RHarr83176: Seemed too true to me. Indiana48: LOL

GHmyst: Go ask a Marine -- Then duck Zhonu: LOL GH Seanspanks: It specified that the Marines were entirely NCO's, as I recall.

OHostZim:Along with the three types of personal motivation ... "money, pride, and ethical system" No, Marine officers existed .... Seanspanks: Did they? I'm loooking..

OHostZim:It was the you can't be smarter than those sergeants by more than 30 IQ points that Wong told Matt. Otherwise it won't work .... I read that and said bushwah!

RHarr83176: That stuff about the marines is a Joke. They are plenty sharp. Seanspanks: OK, perhaps it was that the Patrol was entirely officer

RHarr83176: I'm an old sailor - we and the marines pick on each other but then stand together.

BPRAL22169: You mistake the point, Ron -- it's not that they were dumb, but a difference in intelligence great enough to be reflected in a 30 point IQ spread means the two groups are living in different worlds -- whether it's 80-120 or 120-150 or 140-170 Indiana48: and point of view

OHostZim:It sounded like the normal Navy jibe at the Marines, but ... basically untrue.

OHostZim:Lot's of average Sergeants ... many very intelligent officers in the Corps.

RHarr83176: I think RAH was kidding. Indiana48: The marines almost always hit the beach first

OHostZim:I did too ...

BPRAL22169: (See-- very smart. Hit something only if it won't hit back.)

OHostZim:but it sounded like it was something he wanted us to think about. Archer Vandergrift would have disputed it very colorfully.

RHarr83176: Sure, but the jibe was in fun. If I ever am in land combat I want to be Marine trained and Marine led. Indiana48: me too RH. I respect all the military branches

GHmyst: don't forget some marine officers have also been to the academy. There were a few in his class

BPRAL22169: I don't think it was a jibe. I think he was in earnest.

OHostZim:(many of the Marine Corps' officers also come from places like Princeton and VMI)

GHmyst: Another thing in the first half was Matt's home leave

OHostZim:What about the three types of motivation: "money, pride, and system of ethics" ... Is that a direct reference to the Wellsian Samurai class, Bill?

BPRAL22169: I don't know if it's a direct reference. Wells has the same kind of analysis but slightly different terms. The Samuai are dedicated to the welfare of the civilization as a whole Indiana48: Samurai had total class control

BPRAL22169: They are an ascetic intellectual-administrative class... Self-chosen.

OnlineHost: "XistHere" has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Wells was very canny to realize the attractions of asceticism.

OHostZim:G'eveing, XistHere, welcome, this is the Robert Heinlein Reading Group. Tonight we're chatting about two of his early juvenile novels, Space Cadet and Red Planet, as part of an examination of all of the juvenile works. XistHere:Was wondering what what up in here. Think I'll just listen in.

OHostZim:Good, Xist, enjoy and pop in if you hear something...

GHmyst: My point was that he would know some marine officers personally

BPRAL22169: Not only at the Academy -- also on the practice cruises.

OHostZim:That was another sort of thing the first half of Space Cadet dealt with ... the separation that aesceticism seems to develop into.

GHmyst: Other kinds of separation as well Seanspanks: I think he had the highest regard for Marine officers.

BPRAL22169: yes -- some of his best good/bad characters were Marines. Deacon, Richard in Star Man Jones, etc.

RHarr83176: But possibly like me would not admit that in front of a Marine.

OHostZim:He did put his finger on the 'espirit d'corps' element, however, in the 'pride' part of the definition in Space Cadet. When Matt finds himself at home trying to explain to his father that maybe the old man is just a little off in his assumption that a North American Union officer wouldn't drop the bomb ... and thinks about Rivera.

GHmyst: Exactly, Zim

RHarr83176: Guys, I used to always be on the Marines case. But, one night three of us stood with one marine against a barfull of drunks. As it happen we got our bacon saved by an outsider.

OHostZim:Then goes back to the Academy and discusses it with Wong ... and Wong says you suffer from the disease of the young -- the need for black and white answers. Seanspanks: RH, are you USAF?

OnlineHost: "LadyCee30990" has entered the room. Indiana48: I was Sean. '71 to '75

OHostZim:Hi, Lady ... welcome. LadyCee30990:Hello everyone Indiana48: hi lady

RHarr83176: No, Navy all the way. Seanspanks: I'm Army

OHostZim:Matt starts to realize he's changed .... hard to read that orange, Lady ... LadyCee30990:Bye

OnlineHost: "LadyCee30990" has left the room.

OHostZim:the aesticitism has begun to take over ....

OHostZim:Aestheticism? Indiana48: ? Seanspanks: Anesthesia?

RHarr83176: Sean I am Ron, Zim and BPRAL already know that. XistHere:Question?

OHostZim:That is a Samurai class sort of thing, isn't it Bill?

BPRAL22169: Aesceticism = denial of pleasures for the self.

OHostZim:No, I want another word that means separate ... XistHere:another word for seperate: autonomous. Indiana48: Zim, "apart"? Indiana48: or divided?

OHostZim:"apart" in their thinking?

BPRAL22169: I'd like to dilate on this theme for a moment.

OHostZim:go

BPRAL22169: I think the Future History is a Korzybskian plan, so I tend to relate all these things to Science & Sanity.

GHmyst: that's some word.....Korzybskian

BPRAL22169: Korzybski says: there's a transition coming when the null-a stuff takes over, and you're going to have the adolescence of humankind. This part of the FH is set squarely in that adolescence. RAH takes Wells' Samurai idea and says, this is what the semantically mature engineers of the future of humankind are going to be like. Same in "Misfit," for example -- serious people taking young people seriously and constructively Zhonu: Nice thought BP XistHere:may I ask an unrelated question to the group?

RHarr83176: GA OhostZim:GA Xist

OHostZim:GA=go ahead

BPRAL22169: g.a. XistHere:As an extreme newcomer to Heinlein (only recently begun to read him - and long overdue at that)..... I feel like I may have jumped in, well, in the middle. What are the best places to start, in your opinions?

OHostZim:'middle' is fun ... ask questions! Anything, any time!

GHmyst: everyone has to start somewhere XistHere:Or should I say, with what?

OHostZim:No one best way ...

GHmyst: the juveniles are a good place Indiana48: just read him Seanspanks: you mean, what book, Xist? XistHere:Well, I started with Stranger...... then went to time enough.... now I'm worried about order, as there seems to be much overlapping of the books.

OHostZim:Depends on your age, interests ... and Myst is right, juveniles are where a lot of us did Seanspanks: Don't start with Stranger!!

GHmyst: definitely not stranger XistHere:Sean, already done. Started with Stranger. I wasn't intimidated.

RHarr83176: Xist, I personally am very fond of a book that most don't consider. GULF

OHostZim:You find he goes back into issues again and again ... looks at them from all angles XistHere:What is GULF?

BPRAL22169: [That's a novelet in ASSIGNMENT IN ETERNITY] XistHere:Thanks BP Seanspanks: I'd recommend either "The Past Through Tommorow" or the juveniles.

OHostZim:I personally think if you start anywhere and read and read eventually you'll find yourself thinking about it all as a whole. Indiana48: Thats what I think, Zim

RHarr83176: His teaching method whether conscious or not is very Sufic. It is the combination of all the hits that does it. XistHere:Zim, I love that. I think I've already found myself, or continued the process with Time Enough. Seanspanks: Don't read the '80's stuff until you have read most of the other future history stuff... or the context may be lost.

BPRAL22169: Possibly a parallel technique?

OHostZim:But I started with Rocket Ship Galileo and through the juveniles ... I *do* think he uses a parallel technique

GHmyst: I really can't recommend Star Beast XistHere:Is there an order to the Future History stuff?

RHarr83176: O boy is there ever. Xist

OHostZim:Yes. Start at the beginning of The Past Through Tomorrow -- They are in sequence. XistHere:I could start missing all those people wandering around in the nude with the juveniles. ;)

BPRAL22169: No -- you'll get some nudies in THE DOOR INTO SUMMER

OHostZim:Then on to the later FH novels.

GHmyst: Did you see the movie Startship Troopers, Xist??

RHarr83176: When will they ever reprint PAST?? Seanspanks: X, the Future History is charted, approximately, in "Past Through Tommorrow", as I recall.

OHostZim:And some in "If This Goes On ..." XistHere:Zim, have I screwed it up by reading Time Enough for Love first?

OHostZim:No!!!

BPRAL22169: No -- you'll love going back to read METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN now.

OHostZim:You'll find yourself going back and rereading with delight. Seanspanks: Not screwed it up..I read Love before reading Tomorrow

RHarr83176: I think TEFL is possibly his best. XistHere:So MC should be next then?

BPRAL22169: MC is at the end of Past Through Tomorrow Indiana48: Now I've gotta dig out my old books and re read em XistHere:RH - that's what I'm worried about, if its his best, will I be disappointed?

OHostZim:If you want Lazarus Long ... MC is good. See also "Misfit" to pick up the first Libby.

BPRAL22169: And it was recently republished, wasn't it, with something else?

GHmyst: Don't forget Starship Troopers

RHarr83176: No, RAH just goes on and on delighting you. Seanspanks: Just read through PSTT, through MC..it introduces Lazarus Long.

RHarr83176: Xist what you are up against is a first rate mind. That never gets old. XistHere:I did see Starship Troopers, but I never expect a movie like that to pass on the meaning of a writer like Heinlein. Indiana48: I luckily have some old Signets

OHostZim:Methuselah's Children is republished with Revolt in 2100 which includes "ITGO" and "Misfit" [PSTT=Past Through Tomorrow; "ITGO"="If This Goes on ..."] We use a lot of acronyms. Indiana48: :o( XistHere:Zim, I noticed that. Zhonu: Yes why dont you post an acronym lexicon on the Message Board

GHmyst: Forget the movie, read the book Seanspanks: The movie is no substitute for the book. XistHere:Never thought it would be.

OHostZim:The movie is no substitute for anything ...

BPRAL22169: Even more true of this movie and this book

GHmyst: I mean it......FORGET the movie Indiana48: as bad as the movie of Dune?

GHmyst: I kind of liked Dune

RHarr83176: If you really want to appreciate him take the novels that were originally abridged then get the non-bowdlerized version. You will find he was the master every time

BPRAL22169: And there's a new book coming out -- the Fantasies of RAH

GHmyst: Fantasies.....more details Bill

BPRAL22169: FANTASIES IIRC is a combination of two books -- THE UNPLEASANT PROFESSION OF JONATHAN HOAG and WALDO AND MAGIC, INC.

OHostZim:Another point ... about the separate and apart thoughts in Space Cadet and in A Modern Utopia, isn't Starship Troopers just a continuation of that? Seanspanks: I introduced a girl to RAH..she visited last weekend. We drove by the old house, and then up Pikes Peak, to were the space catapult should be.

OHostZim:Could ...

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OnlineHost: "BEVTESS" has entered the room. XistHere:Thanks all, for the info.

GHmyst: our pleasure

OHostZim:Note that the only voters in A Modern Uptopia are the Samuri class .... like the veterans.

BPRAL22169: I hadn't thought of that parallel, but it makes sense. Closer than the Twain RAH referred people to -- "The Curious Republic of Gondour." Seanspanks: Hope to see you again, X!

OHostZim:Hi, BEV, welcome, this is the Robert Heinlein Reading Group. Tonight we're chatting about two of his early juvenile novels, Space Cadet and Red Planet, as part of an examination of all of the juvenile works. BEVTESS:Hi XistHere:How often is this forum? Indiana48: hihi Bev

OHostZim:Every other Thursday, Xist BEVTESS:O I read Red Planet BEVTESS:Heinlein

OHostZim:I'll put you on our list ... XistHere:Zim, please do. XistHere:night all

OHostZim:Wonderful ... let's turn to Red Planet in a bit. Indiana48: night

OHostZim:We go Three hours Xist

OnlineHost: "XistHere" has left the room. BEVTESS:I Loved Have Spacesuit Will Travel

GHmyst: while we are still on Space Cadet..... BEVTESS:I also loved Willis

BPRAL22169: I'm going to have to take a short break. I'll be back. Zhonu: I must go too, sorry not to have contributed much this evening, maybe more in 2 weeks

OHostZim:Well, stop back later ... we have two hours left. BEVTESS:do you meet here regularly

OHostZim:Yes

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OHostZim:Every other Thursday

GHmyst: Consider the technical concepts explained so well -- Life support problems in space ships, orbital mechaincs (Hohmann transfer orbits, etc.) You get an education without realizing it. BEVTESS:I go to the A-Z fantasy chat here and also the Anne Mccaffrey readers chat that is here

OHostZim:Okay ... did he do that better this time .... I felt that Rocket Ship Galileo was not as wel

OHostZim:well done.

OHostZim:And wondered why ...

GHmyst: Good point...why.....

OHostZim:It wasn't as intrusive here ... he's done another kind of boy's novel ... the boy goes away to school. Like Stalky & Co, or David Copperfield ... and it fits in better.

GHmyst: More practice...wasnt RSg the first juvenile? The story itself was better, so fitting in the technical details seemed less intrusive or ponderous in Cadet BEVTESS:I started reading Sci fi because of Heinlein Indiana48: good for you Bev

OHostZim:He's definitely a good reason to start, Bev ... CandyLC:I must go--thanks Zim and all.

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GHmyst: bye

OHostZim:Rocket Ship Galileo=boy inventor story, like Tom Swift ... BEVTESS:Red Planet was something like that also

OHostZim:Space Cadet is a go away to school type. Is Red Planet going to be either or ... or is it going to be yet another type?

OHostZim:Exactly Bev ... like but with an add-on of sorts. Indiana48: right

OHostZim:And the add-on is? BEVTESS:boy saves colonies from badguys Seanspanks: Didn't have any Columbine massacres at Lowell Academy!

OHostZim:LOL, Sean! How 'bout Johnny Tremain meets Hans Brinker?

GHmyst: just a nasty evil principal BEVTESS:I know they didn't like the Bouncer Willis very much -- not to be with a boy anyhow

OHostZim:[cause I think RAH was trying out or experimenting with all the juvenile genres]

OHostZim:Or, am I all wet?

GHmyst: I always felt that his concept of Martians were not very good aliens to have in a story Seanspanks: Speaking of Evil Principles, did you catch the Heinlein mentions in the movie,"The Faculty"?

GHmyst: which were???

RHarr83176: GA Sean Seanspanks: Characters compared their situation to RAH's "Puppet Masters" Seanspanks: And a girl was reading "Double Star" Indiana48: I loved Puppet Masters

OHostZim:The one girl who seems to be the one who figures "The Faculty" out is a Heinlein reader BEVTESS:I saw that movie

GHmyst: Who wrote the script...must be a Heinlein fan

RHarr83176: Guys, I have to go. Morining comes early. Indiana48: me too all

GHmyst: Doesn't it always???

OHostZim:But what do we think about the developing "Heinlein juvenile" in Red Planet ... was it better than the first two? Indiana48: TTFN

RHarr83176: But this chat is wonderful. Zim don't forget to post it.

OHostZim:see ya, Indy. Indiana48: yes you will

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OnlineHost: "Indiana48" has left the room. BEVTESS:Put me on your list for the chats, I read alot of his books

OnlineHost: "Doc4Kidz" has entered the room. Seanspanks: Yes, better. More realistic interactions, better role models developed (Doc McRae)

GHmyst: Do the type of Martians and their capabilities tie in with Stranger?? Seanspanks: Good possibility, GH

OHostZim:Okay ... I thought it was a better story to read than the first two as a juvenile ... for one particular reason. (Sure will BEV)

GHmyst: GA Zim

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OHostZim:I agree with

GHmyst about the characters ... but the boy model was more like me ..his sport wasn't the BIG sports like football or baseball, he was good at a minor one, skating. He was more average ... He was less sure of himself, and a lot younger than the heros in either RSG or SC

GHmyst: well, Skating was less of a sport than a survival skill, wsn't it?

OHostZim:easier to imagine myself in his shoes, or rather skates ...But we'd all like to think that we could persist like he did ... don't have to be fast or skillful, just stubborn ... and persistent

GHmyst: Did the book specifically identify it as a "sport" BEVTESS:seemed a way of life there

OHostZim:Not really, but the kids reading the book knew it was ... it was something they thought, whether they were right, they could do. BEVTESS:needed to know how to skate to get around -- especially when they had to go out in the breather outfits Seanspanks: I love the marvelous run-on sentences in Jim's letter home (Chap. IV) ..that was exactly how my best HS friend wrote!

OHostZim:Something that persistence rather than an inate athletic skill could do ... a better identification with the potential audience I thought.

OHostZim:Exactly, Sean ... he's making more an effort to sound like a kid ...

GHmyst: I hate to have to bail out as well..but I must. 'Night, all.

OHostZim:to make a hero more palatable

OHostZim:Night Myst

OHostZim:See ya next meeting

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OHostZim:And this is the first kid 'side-kick' novel ...

OHostZim:Willis is a creation that we didn't see the like of again (not counting Star Beast) until R2D2 -- "A Boy's Best Friend" with a little X-T twist. BEVTESS:I liked the way he had Willis get along with the humans and they didnt know how important he was

OHostZim:Anyone think Red Planet wasn't better than the first two ... (yes, that was quite a twist, wasn't it Bev?)

OHostZim:The first appearance of the "Lost Prince" in Heinlein ... like Valentine Michael in SiaSL. BEVTESS:seemed to be to be the branch between two races

Doc4Kidz:Lummox BEVTESS:seemed to me

OHostZim:Exactly, Doc ... Lummox is another. BEVTESS:he isnt the first writer to have an alien creature as a friend? Look at Flinx

OHostZim:What he did with Willis and Lummox was very interesting ... that's one example, a friendly but potentially very dangerous friend if not treated properly, Vev. BEVTESS:true BEVTESS:also look at Mccaffreys Dragons with humans

OHostZim:Bev ... too close on the keyboard ... when the adult Martian disappears the manager and school head ... it's very easy to visualize what would happen if they just "twisted" a little part of Earth as Valentine Michael says he could do in SiaSL ... and ::::pooof:::: bye-bye. BEVTESS:I always wondered how they did that, I read that book in school

OHostZim:I think they basically shove it down a Black Hole. What's ninety degrees from everything else, as Jubal asks Larry in SiaSL? Have you read SiaSL, Bev? BEVTESS:when I read a book by McCaffrey which had Theks in it, they reminded me of the Martians from

OHostZim:Stranger In A Strange Land .... BEVTESS:Heinlein when people disappeared without a trace BEVTESS:which Book?

OHostZim:Either the 61 or 91 edition ... BEVTESS:yes I read that book. been awhile. probably the 61 edition

OHostZim:Funny how he uses the same concept in Number to produce the time machine and ability to travel among multi-universes and then uses it in Red Planet to give you that ability to just make offending people go poof ....Of course, that's what it does ... they think ... PBS had a very interesting set of Novas these last few weeks on the topic.

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OHostZim:G/evening Joe ... nice to see you. We're talking about Red Planet and Willis's abilities

Joe Fixitt: Oh ok, cool deal. BEVTESS:I liked the way he mimiced people

Joe Fixitt: What about his ability to perfectly mimic people.

OHostZim:I think the concept of Willis (A Boys' Best Friend with superpowers) was what made the book a delight for most juveniles. That recording was great!

Joe Fixitt: Didn't he also have a sort of amorphous pseudo pod?

OHostZim:And the can opener he used to cut open the office .... R2D2's was a rip-off!

Joe Fixitt: oh yeah, I forgot about that.

OHostZim:[but I said, as I watched it, "Hi, Willis, nice to see you again"] ... been a lot of years. Seanspanks: Ladies and gents, I must go seek pizza. Goodnight! BEVTESS:he sure made a cut in the door, and I liked the way the Martians got into were they wanted

Joe Fixitt: Actually, I read Red PLanet well after seeing SW, and I thought R2D2 was just a robotic Will

OHostZim:Okay, Sean, see ya next meeting.

Doc4Kidz:what did you say when you saw the Troopers in the powered armor?

Joe Fixitt: Willis, after thinking about it

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OHostZim:In Star Wars ... expected them to blast off and float around .... Doc.

Doc4Kidz:me too. thought of ST immediately. A lot of RAH influence turns up in a lot of places

OHostZim:Anyone read that post I put up on Tom Corbett--Space Cadet ... they're right, of course,

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OHostZim:Roddenbury took a lot of ideas from that TV series. And put them in Star Trek ... BEVTESS:I still dont see why there was a fuss about the movie Starship Troopers

OHostZim:Why, Bev ... did you think it a good representation of Heinlein's thoughts in Troopers ...?

BPRAL22169: The only fuss I remember in the general papers was because it was so violent.

OHostZim:and mindless ... BEVTESS:yes but didnt connect it to the nazi type of soldier

OHostZim:Maybe Verhoeven read and took the 30 point IQ differential seriously ... Bill? BEVTESS:uniforms, rules etc

BPRAL22169: Now, now...

OHostZim:And made Johnnie stupider than he was ...

Joe Fixitt: I still don't remember women being in ground combat rolls in the book...

OHostZim:Wellsian "pride" did seem to be portrayed pretty well in V's version. BEVTESS:well they did seem to take alot of liberties with the book

OHostZim:Ve don't care vhat ve are sent out to kill, ve yust do vhat ve are ordered! [not very efficiently, because Verhoeven left our suits out, but ... ] Dat ist bekause ve are yust cannon-fodder, verstain! BEVTESS:that shower scene sure wasn't in the book

Joe Fixitt: heh, thats for sure

OHostZim:j/k Bev ...

Doc4Kidz:bev should read our group review BEVTESS:was chuckling at the writing Ha Ha

OHostZim:Yes, she could. Know where it is, Bev? BEVTESS:no

OHostZim:I'll send you a link or two after the meeting, You'll enjoy it.

Doc4Kidz:I don't know either, lately

BPRAL22169: I have fallen behind schedule finalizing it to be posted on the website. BEVTESS:thanks

BPRAL22169: But the version on the message boards is substantially complete.

OHostZim:It's finally backup ... the first draft ...AOL finally brought our Boards back on line. Only took two months .... #@%@#

OHostZim:Bev, or Joe, either of you read Space Cadet? BEVTESS:yup

Joe Fixitt: I never did like the merging of DuBois (sp) and Raschak

Joe Fixitt: No, I haven't BEVTESS:been along time though

OHostZim:(neither did I like the merging) ... Space Cadet was a little less enjoyable than Red Planet

BPRAL22169: I find it hard to compare the two -- they occupy such different "spaces" in my head.

OHostZim:but possibly more thoughtful ... it involves one notion that's a little more than just juvenile.

Doc4Kidz:Actually, I liked it better. The part that immediately comes to mind is the hero waiting on line and using a cell phone

OHostZim:GA, Doc. A lot of predictions ...

Doc4Kidz:absolutely a cell phone as we know it today

OHostZim:But the think that struck me as unique was the required Seminar in "Doubt" that the Academy taught the cadets. Thinking outside the box as someone put it ... BEVTESS:it really blows my mind when I see something that I read about years ago in sci fi

OHostZim:... now being used, or seriously reconsidered as 'new' .... yes!

Joe Fixitt: Actually, what blows my mind is how much we now live in the era of sci-fi

BPRAL22169: Joe -- you're very right. I can't tell you how many times since 1975 I have stopped and thought to myself: I am living in the future.

Doc4Kidz:absolutely, Joe. Just 20 years ago, we couldn't imagine the stuff we live with everyday

Doc4Kidz:I mean imagine HAVING it; we could IMAGINE just fine.

Joe Fixitt: I mean, I'm still in my 20's and sometimes it freak me out how advanced the world is. How weird it is. BEVTESS:remember the size of computers back then

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OHostZim:G'evening John.

Joe Fixitt: I guess that is sort of Gibsonian.

BPRAL22169: (It's starting to sink in on me how primitive the social part of the world is)

GCEMS909:evening all

BPRAL22169: Another voice from the past! BEVTESS:Ive seen alot of changes in my lifetime

Joe Fixitt: Speaking of which, Gibson quoted Heinlein in a chat session tonite, for those interested.

OHostZim:Oh?

Doc4Kidz:Gibson?

Joe Fixitt: Yeah, referring to Heinlein about writing.

OHostZim:[and after you tell us who he was, what was the quote?]

Joe Fixitt: "Finish what you write...

Doc4Kidz:I bet it's the three laws

BPRAL22169: Gibson is probably the 2nd brightest sf writer working now.

Doc4Kidz:yep!

Joe Fixitt: William Gibson. Author of Neuromancer.

OHostZim:HaH!

OHostZim:Ah-so

Joe Fixitt: He was the guy who coined the term "cyberspace" and visualized VR

OHostZim:click!

BPRAL22169: Actually Varley did it a few years earlier than Gibson. But Gibson's "stuck" and Varley's didn't

OHostZim:In Steel Beach, or another one of Varley's?

BPRAL22169: An earlier novelet published as a very short book,. but I can't remember the title I read it about 1989, and it had been published much earlier. BEVTESS:Heinleins name was mentioned in a few of Mccaffreys novels

OHostZim:Varley's "Heinleiners" always annoyed me ... I didn't know that Bev. Which ones? BEVTESS:he was mentioned in passing about early sci fi writers in one of her books

BPRAL22169: I believe she was one of the dedicatees of -- was it Expanded Universe?

BPRAL22169: Nope -- to William Targ. Maybe TEFL BEVTESS:Im trying to remember which series it was mentioned

GCEMS909:brb

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OHostZim:A tribute ... no, that's William Targ. The one with all the women's names, maybe, Bill?

BPRAL22169: That's the one I'm remembering, but I can't remember which one it was.

OHostZim:Friday

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Doc4Kidz:boing!

BPRAL22169: Friday, right. First name on the list.

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Lucylou98: Evening

OHostZim:WB, John, hi, Lucy!

Joe Fixitt: Who was the first to conceptualize bionic limbs? I know Heinlein used them several times...such as in ST and Mistress

GCEMS909:back; now i can read what yall are saying

Lucylou98: Did I miss everything? BEVTESS:well I have to go, please add my name to your group

OHostZim:No ... we've been waiting so we could get serious [j/k] which one do you want to start with

OHostZim:I will, Bev, thanks and welcome

BPRAL22169: BTW I rented THE FACULTY this weekend to track the Heinlein references. BEVTESS:bye all and I enjoyed the chat

Lucylou98: bye, Bev

OHostZim:Saw it about a month ago. Enjoy it ... it's a nice tribute to a lot of old scifi clunkers.

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BPRAL22169: Only two - the dweebette is reading Double Star, and then they refer to The Puppet Masters and Jack Finney's Invasion of the body Snatchers as paradigmatic alien takeover plots.

Lucylou98: Zimand it was a girl who was the SF junkie:)

OHostZim:Of course it was a girl ... only the brightest one in the movie ...And how come that's not Molly Ringwald?

Lucylou98: Molly Ringwald is lame

Lucylou98: lol

Doc4Kidz:Ringworld?

OHostZim::P

Lucylou98: Good one Doc

Joe Fixitt: heh, imagine casting Ringwald as Teela

BPRAL22169: Oh, that's good -- Molly Ringworld; tell it to Niven.

Doc4Kidz:we had our chance, a while back

Joe Fixitt: "Ringwald in Ringworld"

BPRAL22169: That would be interesting casting -- she's in midnight blue face makeup when we first see her.

OHostZim:We were talking about Space Cadet, Lucy. What was the most striking thing you read in it? Thing that stuck out the most ...

Lucylou98: well, i have a confession.....

Lucylou98: Never read Space Cadet

BPRAL22169: Bad Lucy, bad bad!

Lucylou98: lol

Lucylou98:I know.

BPRAL22169: (too much time spent with a Golden Retriever lately)

OHostZim:don't worry ... we'll forgive you ... you just have to run around the supply shed w/Bronski

Lucylou98: they make me read this Shakespeare stuff,

BPRAL22169: Actually, I'm ready to move on to Red Planet.

GCEMS909:how about the technology that has now come true -- the "cell" phone; at the very beginning

Lucylou98: oh not the supply shed!

OHostZim:about sixteen times ... for Molly Ringwald's Sixteen Candles.

Lucylou98: I am reading Red Planet

Lucylou98: 16 times....hard disciplinarian there, Zim

OHostZim:Okay ... we'll play Red Planet for a bit, but look at the one required class they mention, J

Joe Fixitt: wow! cool '80s movie reference! Awright!

BPRAL22169: Quick,without thinking, what did you like best, worst...

OHostZim:John, the couse in "Doubt"

Joe Fixitt: [--- is a shameless child of the '80s

Lucylou98: the headmaster guy

GCEMS909:willis

OHostZim:Best=Willis; Worst=Marlowe's buddy's mother about to die. And the reaction of the 'corporation' that runs the planet to that problem.

Joe Fixitt: I didn't like the corporation being the bad guy.

OHostZim:Reminded me of Bill Leamer's adopted sister ...

Lucylou98: The Corporation is just out of touch, you think?

GCEMS909:could there be a comparison from Willis to the star beast with both having "human pets?:

Joe Fixitt: would have rather the U.N. or some such other gov't construct.

BPRAL22169: Moving the colony had a really "alien" feel to it -- but it's historical -- Mayan?

Joe Fixitt: Was Heinlein referencing the Maya culture?

OHostZim:Or any hunter-gatherer society ... fishermen following the fish, hunters following bison.

Lucylou98: you mean like the nomads?..move from place to place as needed?

GCEMS909:except this is planned due to climatic conditions

OHostZim:To escape the ice age every six months

Joe Fixitt: Zim thats what I thought, not specific

BPRAL22169: I can't remember which of those mesoamerican societies did that -- moved from north to south, abandoning the cities, then back again.

OHostZim:It would be an unique situation that we'd have to adjust ourselves to ... imagine moving to avoid the stobar in Tunnel

OHostZim:Seems to me humans don't like to do that much ...

Lucylou98: My mom winters in Florida every year. lol

Joe Fixitt: Well there, they didnt have the tech to deal with the critters.

OHostZim:Why no tech to deal with the cold?

Lucylou98: I wondered that

Joe Fixitt: yes, that would be my question

OHostZim:Have to have an example to justify rebellion ... A real serious life or death one ...

Joe Fixitt: Could have been a question of economics tho, i.e. the tech just cost too much.

Lucylou98: Rightbut we dont hang around the really cold climates on earth....

Lucylou98: Joe, my thoughts exactly

GCEMS909:bye for now; got to drive to Philadelphia in the morning (13 hours on road) see y'all in two weeks

Lucylou98: Bye GC

OHostZim:And the corporation decided the economics favored remaining in place ... who cares if a few die. They're obviously unsuited to remain colonists.

Joe Fixitt: heh, those evil capitalists... ;)

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OHostZim:Same sort of thing takes place next meeting in Farmer In The Sky ... all those additional ship loads coming.

BPRAL22169: I thought the connection of the corp. to the school principal was not completely believable.

Joe Fixitt: How long is Farmer?

OHostZim:After the quake ... have to have a pay-back for the new ships quickly or they'll vote us out of our positions on the Board of Directors.

Doc4Kidz:if anyone saw the movie OUTLAND with Sean Connery, it had echoes of the Corporation as well

OHostZim:Why not believable? Sinctures are always a by-product of a monopoly.

Doc4Kidz:also that Schwarzenneger one about Mars

Joe Fixitt: Total Recall?

BPRAL22169: TOTAL RECALL?

Joe Fixitt: Piers Anthony

OHostZim:produced by Verhoeven ...

BPRAL22169: It's a very conventional trope.

Doc4Kidz:that's it. A lot easier than trying to spell Shwartz...

Doc4Kidz:yes, I remember, David

Joe Fixitt: Though, I can see the Heinlein influence

BPRAL22169: Outland was a stfnal remake of HIGH NOON.

OHostZim:So, the problem we have today with corporations getting into space travel with no or little immediate return is the same as the one that applies here? That Harriman overcame by bamboolzing people?

Lucylou98: Was

RHarr83176 here this evening?

OHostZim:Yes

Lucylou98: that reminds me of Downbelow Station

OHostZim:Some corporations have started wars to make a profit ... addicted nations .... note what happens to be the major product in Number in the Brit sector. Marjuna ...

Doc4Kidz:remember the "Maine"

OHostZim:marijuna

BPRAL22169: The Boxer Rebellion.

OHostZim:The Opium Wars ... yes.

BPRAL22169: A War that was started to maintain a profitable trade in Opium.

OHostZim:And the one fifty years earlier to start it ...

Doc4Kidz:Spanish-American war...sold newspapers

OHostZim:So why wouldn't a corporation look at its balance sheet and decide. The colonists can stay there. It's inefficient to have two separate installations for them to migrate between.

Joe Fixitt: Well, I am not convinced, on the whole, that war is profitable.

OHostZim:Oh, do you know any DuPonts?

Lucylou98: But it is isn't it?

BPRAL22169: Depends on how you define it. it's tremendously profitable to arms manufacturers.

Joe Fixitt: No

BPRAL22169: The thing about centralized governments is that people can work the levers for their own benefit, whether it's good for the polity as a whole or not. In a sense, that's the essence of monopoly "capitalism."

Joe Fixitt: And rather than go into a lecture on the subject, I'd refer you to Economics in One Lesson

BPRAL22169: An excellent little book.

Lucylou98: Will read it, joe.

Joe Fixitt: Yes. Good introduction. To econ.

BPRAL22169: Is it still in print?

OHostZim:Which gets us back to the Samuri Class in A Modern Utopia and the need to have what Wells said was "a clear common purpose" to "override all these incurably egotistical dissentiments." Like the profit motive beyond a certain point

OHostZim:Very socialistic writing, btw .... eh?

Joe Fixitt: Though it doesn't help me much in my econometrics course. ;)

Lucylou98: or just take my Economics class.

Joe Fixitt: BPRAL, yes I believe so

Joe Fixitt: By Henry Hazlitt

BPRAL22169: I'm checking for it on Bookfinders.com now

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BPRAL22169: Looks like about 50 copies ranging from $6 to $15 in paperback and hardcovers.

Lucylou98: send the link, BPR?

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BPRAL22169: Let's see if I can get it into this chatlog: BookFinder.com: Search for Out of Print and Used Books (Keyword to: http://www.bookfinder.com/)

OHostZim:WB, Joe

BPRAL22169: Not a link, but there's the URL

OHostZim:Looks like you made it well enough for us to find it, Bill.

Doc4Kidz:BookFinders (Keyword to: http://bookfinders.com/)

Doc4Kidz:(didn't work for me either)

BPRAL22169: I sent it as a link in an IM -- anybody else want it that way?

OHostZim:The seminar in Doubt questioned whether even having a Patrol was good for humanity in the long run ... and in Farmer next meeting there's another discussion of that to look --

BPRAL22169: I think the purpose of that was to make people affirm the usefulness of what they are doing individually and by working it out for themselves.

OHostZim:-- forward to ... a Patrol would have kept there from being an incentive to start wars for profit ....Do you think we're going to find that RAH changed his mind here ...

BPRAL22169: Heinlein has a different answer for the meaning of war in FITS.

OHostZim:Good, then we'll save that meaning ... to examine next meeting. And compare.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, a random ? just popped into my head -- is RP the early history of the Mars of Podkayne?

BPRAL22169: No -- can't be. No Martians.

BPRAL22169: Never mind. OhostZim:I went looking for A Modern Utopia last week, and hit several books stores. Does anyone remember a novel by a writer named Pat Frank, called Alas, Babylon?

Lucylou98: I think I do, Zim

BPRAL22169: Could you refresh memory with a brief summary?

OHostZim:Do you know he wrote an earlier novel, Lucy ... summary follows:

OHostZim:A bomb attack. Florida, Randy Bragg, they make it through the disaster by going back to nature, and living off the land until the UN powers that remain start sending in missions to extract them from their own disaster. Same time as ON THE BEACH

BPRAL22169: The story line doesn't sound familiar -- It must have been referenced earlier.

OHostZim:Bragg is a wastrel who takes over ... failed politician ... as law and order falls apart. Was well known. The earlier work I found was written about the same time as Space Cadet and Planet. Called "HOLD BACK THE NIGHT" about the Korean War, the long walk back from Chosin Reservoir that Oscar's dad makes. The major character there had reenlisted because he thought that there was going to be a one-world like Heinlein obviously looked forward to ... we forget sometimes that the Korean War was fought by UN forces that were voted because Soviets were boycotting the Security Council. So I've concluded that the One-World Wellsian thought that Heinlein hd wasn't too unusual for the times.

OHostZim:It surprised me to find that sentiment in Frank's book ... because he's heavily anti-communist by the time 1960 rolls around and he's writing Alas, Babylon, and Heinlein's about to write Farnham's Freehold.

Doc4Kidz:I thought he just wrote about it...I got the impression that he (RAH) didn't think it was a good idea or, perhaps did he change a little around 1960 or so

BPRAL22169: Doc, RAH became disenchanted with Wellsian socialism sometime after 1950.

Doc4Kidz:I was about to write "or maybe a little earlier" - I got it

OHostZim:Perhaps a lot ... dissolution with the UN ... the security council vetos ended cooperation

BPRAL22169: Asimov thought the whole conservatism thing was because of Virginia - but she says his ideas

OHostZim:for about forty years, on anything important.

BPRAL22169: were pretty well formed by the time they met.

BPRAL22169: Sorry, I'll stop stepping on your lines.

OHostZim:We forget sometimes how important that veto was .... it stopped progress on many things for two generations. All my adult lifetime ... the adult lifetime of most who started reading Heinlein as juvenile. Maybe that's the source of the ennui, not Vietnam?

BPRAL22169: You were about to say something about an earlier novel by Pat Frank?

OHostZim:The sentiments in the earlier novel sound very much like Wellsian socialism just like RAHs. So I'd conclude that Space Patrol was very mainsteam in '48. As was "The Long Watch" and "Misfit" and even "Roads Must Roll"

BPRAL22169: Except for the rolling roads.

OHostZim:Like the planet Wells takes us to in Utopia

BPRAL22169: He was still publishing in the SEP in 1948, wasn't he? You can't get more "mainstream" than that.

Lucylou98: I must go to bed. nodding off here.

OHostZim:Not sure ... did you get that e mail I sent you a copy of between Indiana's librarian and me

Lucylou98: Have a good night.

OHostZim:Just about twenty more minutes Lucy

BPRAL22169: Yes -- I e'mailed back with a few more details.

OHostZim:Next meeting: This is a wonderful chat; but it's getting time to begin to end. Next meeting in 2 weeks is Thursday, October 28th, at 9 pm to midnite, ET.

BPRAL22169: Hehe.

Lucylou98: say what? come again, Jim

OHostZim:Ack ... wrong date. Next meeting is November whatever it is.

Lucylou98: lol

OHostZim:Thanks again, everyone, for coming and participating in our chat. See you all in two weeks! We'll be discussing Heinlein's next 2 juvenile novels, Farmer In The Sky and Between Planets.

OHostZim:It's been fun ... but, dinner's ready for me. Bye!

BPRAL22169: It's a dead meeting. It's shuffled off its mortal coil. it's an ex chat.

OHostZim:Remind me to hit the right button next meeting ...

Lucylou98: Just very tired tonight..bye HostZim. Everyone, good evening

OnlineHost: "Lucylou98" has left the room.

OHostZim:Night Lucy

BPRAL22169: We didn't do anything about Guns in Red Planet, either.

OHostZim:No, but we can get there ... maybe as a theme for a whole meeting.

BPRAL22169: It seemed so "natural" to me when I read it aet. 16 I couldn't see what the fuss was about

OHostZim:Anything else we should try to cover?

OHostZim:Me too. Had a license to hunt at 13 .... and a boy scout merit badge.

BPRAL22169: BTW, I'm going to be out of town between 11/8 and 11/16 so I won't be here for the next --

BPRAL22169: too bad, as those are two of my favorites.

OHostZim:Give our best to Virginia ...

BPRAL22169: I had to put that trip off until after the rainy season. This is a working vacation to work on the computer project.

OHostZim:Have to watch out for the former 'whirly-girls' as John D. MacDonald used to call them ...

BPRAL22169: My, oh my.

OHostZim:Can't call 'em that anymore ... Hugo ....

BPRAL22169: BTW, if you can send me a rough copy of the chat log (mine is busted to hell because of the interruptions) I can try to get it out to the AIM people tomorrow.

OHostZim:Sure, as soon as the meetings over look in your mail.

OnlineHost: "Joe Fixitt" has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Great.

OHostZim:Nite Bill, Doc, nice to see you back.

Doc4Kidz:Nice to see you guys again

BPRAL22169: Seconded.

OHostZim:Thursday, October 28, 1999, 8:47:17 PM, PDT, Closing log.

BPRAL22169: We do seem to be winding down, don't we.

Doc4Kidz:goodnight

Final End of Discussion Log

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