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AOL Heinlein Readers Discussion Group

February 17, 2000

Have Space Suit -- Will Travel

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Preparatory Posts

[Editor's Note: Pre-Meeting discussions on alt.fan.heinlein]

Subject: Next Mtng--Have Space Suit--Will Travel

Date: 2/8/00 5:10 PM Pacific Standard Time

From: AGplusone

The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group

Notice of Next Meeting

Thursday, February 17, 2000, from 9 PM to midnight, in The BC Salon III, on AOL,cohost: GCEMS909@aol.com and Saturday, February 19, 2000, from 8 to 10 PM, ET, on the Internet in an AIM chatroom.

[you may download AIM, ver. 3.0 from http//:www.aol.com](make sure I know the name you register so I'll recognize you]

Topic: One of Heinlein's most delightful juveniles which also has the most thoughtful content about juvenile education

Readings: Heinlein's 'juvenile' novel Have Space Suit--Will Travel ('58) and anything else the co-host may suggest.

Next up: one of my favorite juvenile novels, one I found myself nodding my head over when I first read it at fifteen. GCEMS909 (John), our cohost, has previously suggested readings of two non-Heinlein works as a supplement and he'll no doubt reiterate that suggestion in his lead-off post here and on AFH* if he wishes. Meanwhile, don't wait for the lead-off, but post anything useful to our reading of the award winning novel and to the subjects contained in it here as soon as you can!

I look forward to re-reading HSS--WT, and hope to see you all.

*NOTE: For AOL readers, 'AFH' refers to a newsgroup (hyperlink: --] alt.fan.heinlein (unread)) where some excellent discussions about Heinlein's writings take place. Read a few posts to understand the tone of the group posting, however, before you start posting. They're friendly to newcomers who read Heinlein, but really don't suffer foolish visitors very kindly. It is a self-moderated group. It's where most of the AIM attendees come from.

A week from tomorrow is the AOL meeting and a week from this upcoming Saturday is the AIM meeting! The more posts we have, the better our discussions usually are. Looking forward to both.

David

--

AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: Next Mtng--Have Space Suit--Will Travel

Date: 2/9/00 9:26 PM Pacific Standard Time

From: AGplusone

John (GCEMS909) writes me he will probably be posting his lead-off sometime late this evening or early tomorrow; but to keep the ball rolling, here's an early response from AFH:

(Jane Davitt, educated in Britain, who is now a landed immigrant in Ottawa, Canada, is a thirtyish married stay-at-home young mother. Her husband is an engineer. She wrote the recent essay exploring Kipling influences in Robert Heinlein's that appears in the current issue of The Heinlein Journal.)

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000 6:09 PM

I got about three pages in and realised just how much information was compressed into those pages. It's not immediately noticeable (and the year of writing, 1958 has to be kept well to the front of the reader's mind) but there's enough there to make one understand, quite subtly that we have moved forward in time and technology whilst keeping the values and attitudes prevalent in the 1950's.

Going to the Moon is an accomplished fact; there is even a small town there. Possible careers that could lead to a job on the Moon include cryogenics and rocket engineering. Lunar society is sufficiently advanced to allow tourists.

That's not all. Heinlein introduces one of his favourite gripes; the pathetic state of 'modern' education with the de emphasising of real learning in favour of 'life skills" that seem to be designed to keep the youth of Centreville from advancing further in their education. This is echoed of course many decades later in EU and in Zeb's cynical account of his own doctorate research in NOTB.

We meet Kip but more importantly we meet his father. Sam Russell is a very unusual character. We get a description of him looking like a "gentle grasshopper" (the mind boggles as to what a fierce grasshopper looks like....). We also have these few phrases;

"Nothing fazed Dad, he meant what he said, he wouldn't argue and he never gave in."

"You see, Dad always found ways to do anything he decided to do."

"Dad rarely gave orders but when he did he expected results."

Is it me or is this totally unlike a gentle grasshopper and more like an incredibly determined, possibly very irritating person to live with? He and Mr Charlton both come out with some things that could slot right into the Notebooks without any alteration. In fact Mr Charlton is another interesting [g] character. Why is he in the plot? What do people think he contributes that Kip's father cannot? Look at what they say, again, in the first part of the book, "Money problems can always be solved by a man not frightened by them."

"There is no such thing as luck; there is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe."

"Kip, how do you expect to face a firing squad calmly if this upsets you?"

"A reverence for life does not require a man to respect Nature's obvious mistakes."

"To what extent civilisation is retarded by the laughing jackasses, the empty minded belittlers?"

There are more but the point I'm making is that Kip has been influenced by two men who would stand out in any society, never mind a small town.

Off to read the next chapter...

Jane

What thoughts do these, about the beginning of HSS--WT, spark among this AOL group's readership?

Love to read them.

David

--

AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: Next Mtng--Have Space Suit--Will Travel

Date: 2/9/00 11:20 PM Pacific Standard Time

From: AGplusone

I've been thinking about the points Jane raises about the extraordinary personalities of Sam Russell, Kip's father, and Mr. Charlton, the druggist.

There's something we should not overlook, Jane notes it. We should not forget this is written in 1958. In 1958, back when television was still mostly black-and-white, there was a very unusual program playing in prime time every week, the western "Have Gun, Will Travel," starring actor Richard Boone in the role of a very odd person, a gunfighter, or really a knight errant named "Palladin." Palladin lives in luxury in a Nob Hill hotel in San Francisco, surrounded by comfort and beautiful women, fine wines, blooded horses, and all the letters and arts can offer. He has 'no visable means of support,' i.e., no one in San Francisco knows exactly what source supports his lifestyle. Somehow he doesn't look like your typical remittance man, clipping coupons, or awaiting that check from the family back East or in England that keeps him away from them in luxury. What supports his life style is his 'Robin Hood' profession. Each episode we come upon a community that is being oppressed by some evil--a big rancher who controls downstream water shutting off the rest of the community and starving it out, a merchant who monopolizes supplies into a town, a mine owner whose murderers by intimation are forcing everyone into line--you all know the various types of these western evildoers, and then someone desperately says: "I've heard of this man called Palladin. Maybe he can help us ... ?" So it's off to the telegraph office; and a scene or so later the stagecoach pulls up in the centre of town and this fancy-dressed dude gets out, wearing all black, with two guns strapped to his waist, the chesspiece insignia, and that business card that says "Have Gun, Will Travel" with his address in San Francisco; and Richard Boone [ed. note: Jack Palance] proceeds in what remains of the episode always successfully to vanquish evil. Then he leaves, back to San Francisco, with his pay eenabling him to continue that lifestyle of luxury. All that's missing is the silver bullet his predecessor in that role used to leave behind, the cloud of dust, and the hearty "Hiyo, Silver."

The difference being: the Lone Ranger didn't charge money. (He was independently wealthy, having that secret silver mine where the silver for the bullets came from.)

Maybe we should consider this educational effect on the mind of Christopher Russell as well? Or, on the minds of the teenagers who read Have Space Suit--Will Travel?

Just one of my scatter-brained thoughts ...

What else is there?

David

--

AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

On to the alt.fan.heinlein posts. Jane Davitt's lead- off has already been copied, above; Dave's response to her was also cross-posted to afh.

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/10/00 6:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

Another point, ( I'm throwing them out as they occur or I'd end up with an impossibly long post), when I read this book for the first time I was exactly Peewee's age; 11 going on 12. Yet I never remember identifying with her, it was always Kip, even though he was much older and a boy. Is this because she is another of the unusual personalities and Kip seems, at least at first, to be more "normal"? Or is it simply the result of first person narration which tends to make the reader, especially the young reader, identify with the person telling the tale? Peewee, despite her genius; equal to that of her Nobel prize winning father, always seemed much younger than I was.

Subsequent, or should that be numerous, re readings have changed the way I look at this book; we've discussed the harsh fate of the Wormfaces on this group before but it still remains one of the fastest moving Heinlein books and one of the most fun. That's not to say it isn't loaded with lessons and examples to follow but they slide down as easily as one of Kip's malts. I never quite knew what they were either....soda fountains are not common in the UK. Certainly not in chemist shops :-)

Jane

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: wdg3rd@home.com

Date: 2/10/00 7:19 AM Pacific Standard Time

They [soda fountains] are no longer common in the US either, due to the added levels of bureaucracy involved both in the operation of a pharmacy (the "War on Drugs" among other things) and in the operation of a facility that serves food on premises.

--

Ward Griffithswdg3rd@home.com

http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two countervailing circumstances. First, they themselves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine."

Wendy McElroy

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone)

Date: 2/10/00 11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time

Replying to Jane: are you asking what a 'malt' is? or merely commenting on the rarity of soda fountains in the UK? A malted milk, before MacDonald's Golden Arches introduced the use of chalk dust [cf. Friday], was a combination of milk, ice cream, malt extract together with a flavor, usually chocolate, in power form--but other common flavors were vanilla or strawberry, stirred under a patented and specialized mixing device in a long thick metal glass, containing more than 12 oz, and poured into a glass glass in a metal holder, the metal mixing glass, still half full, being placed alongside so you could refill as you drank.

Every teenaged boy drank about a million of 'em, especially if he was trying to put on weight so he could play football in the fall.

Bill [? ed. note: Ward G] suggests soda fountains are no longer common in the US either, due to the added levels of bureaucracy involved.

Uh, Bill. Sounds nice but I was of the opinion that soda fountains fell out of flavor (or favor, if you wish) about the time the local druggist ceased being a self-employed entrepreneur of a chain and ceased to use them as a loss leader himself to draw business. Chains feel advertising works better. Since I observed their departure, I'll have to ask you to PPOR ... :) (ed.

note: "PPOR = Post Proof or Retract")

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/10/00 12:01 PM Pacific Standard Time

AGplusone wrote: .... Replying to Jane: are you asking what a 'malt' is? or merely commenting on the rarity of soda fountains in the UK?....

We had milk shakes but they weren't as thick; just milk with flavour ( chocolate, strawberry sometimes banana) added in the form of a liquid and then shaken up till it was frothy. The MacDonald Shake was a new experience for me when they arrived at my town. I was about 14 I think. Couldn't get any up the straw it was so thick; but not particularly pleasant. I don't think we've ever had the sort of drink you describe and the whole soda counter experience just isn't part of our childhood; diners and such are rare or non existent. We went in pubs from age16 ( if we dared) and we hung around outside the chip shop or the off license when we were younger :-)

Jane

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: wdg3rd@home.com

Date: 2/11/00 1:05 AM Pacific Standard Time

AGplusone wrote: ]

Bill said: . . . [re bureaucracy driving soda fountains out]..... Bill didn't type that, I did. And while there may be some effect from the growth of the chains in killing soda fountains in drug stores (along with growth of the chains in fast-food next door), I'll hold to the opinion that government interference was the head executioner. It'll take time to PP, since most of the druggists from that era have retired and their successors from the chains running the stores have degrees in business, not pharmacology -- nowadays, a pharmacist is a flunky employee, not the owner or operator in most pharmacies and drug stores.

--

Ward Griffithswdg3rd@home.com

http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two countervailing circumstances. First, they themselves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine."

Wendy McElroy

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: Ogden Johnson III oj3@x-press.net

Date: 2/11/00 4:24 AM Pacific Standard Time

Re: Drugstore/Chemist soda fountains:

Left out of consideration here, to date, are several other factors. Suburbia, and the attendant decline in shopping 'downtown' - exacerbated by a rise, post-WWII, in 'working wives'. Also with the move to shopping centers, then malls, was the advent of Micky-D's with their $0.15 hamburgers, $0.19 cheeseburgers, $0.05 Cokes and fries, prices the average drug store counter could not match. Finally, at least in the south, many were closed as a result of equal accommodation civil rights laws - 'if we gotta serve them, we ain't gonna serve nobody.'

The lunch counter at the Rexall I first worked at in HS fell victim to the Micky-D part of those scenarios [the owner moved me over to stock boy when he closed his counter], aided by the new McLean Bowling just up the street, which as an added fillip, had an ABC-On beer license.

Demographics had sounded the death knell of the drug/department store lunch counter in the '50s, long before the government ever had a chance.

OJ III

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: prnzofthvs@aol.comjunkbloc (Prnzofthvs)

Date: 2/11/00 2:24 PM Pacific Standard Time

OJ posted:

[snip]

....Demographics had sounded the death knell of the drug/department store lunch counter in the '50s, long before the government ever had a chance.....

Thank you for that refreshing voice of non-paranoiac reason, OJ!

Steve

"You got to stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything."

Aaron Tippin

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: prnzofthvs@aol.comjunkbloc (Prnzofthvs)

Date: 2/11/00 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time

Replying to Ward on soda fountains a victim of bureaucracy:

Well, I don't see any basis for it to be related to the "war on drugs," since the pharmacist in my local (as a youth) never did the soda-jerking, anyway; the soda-jerk did. As to the regulations concerning a food-service establishment, Woolworth's still has lunch counters in their stores. Also, would you rather not have any rules concerning cleanliness and such?

Steve

"You got to stand for somethin', or you'll

fall for anything."

Aaron Tippin

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: wdg3rd@home.com

Date: 2/11/00 2:31 PM Pacific Standard Time

Replying to Ward's rumination about customers at soda fountains setting the rules instead of governments: Actually, I'd rather the customers set the rules than the government, but what do I know? I'm just a free-market anarchist.

--

Ward Griffithswdg3rd@home.com

http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two countervailing circumstances. First, they themselves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine."

Wendy McElroy

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: prnzofthvs@aol.comjunkbloc (Prnzofthvs)

Date: 2/11/00 3:18 PM Pacific Standard Time

I said:

.... Also, would you rather not have any rules concerning cleanliness and such....

And Ward replied:

...Actually, I'd rather the customers set the rules than the government, but what do I know? I'm just a free-market anarchist.....

So, let me get this right: you'd rather have the guy with three teeth, who's married to his sister, and thinks that farm animals make nice dining partners, set the rules for the place where you buy lunch? No

thanks.

Steve

"You got to stand for somethin', or you'll

fall for anything."

Aaron Tippin

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 2/11/00 8:36 PM Pacific Standard Time

Is that really my only option in a free market? *sigh* How disillusioning.

Bill

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: Jon Patton Ogden II jon@ogdenco.net

Date: 2/12/00 3:56 AM Pacific Standard Time

I haven't noticed that either Ward nor Steve have pp'd that their system guarantees that the gentleman in question will not determine the quality of the kitchens of the restaurants I frequent.

--

Jon

Knowing next to nothing has never prevented anyone in this newsgroup from joining in ... myself included.

--William Dennis

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: wdg3rd@home.com

Date: 2/12/00 6:49 AM Pacific Standard Time

Jon Patton Ogden II wrote:

I noticed some years back that all large cities and most small towns have more than one place to eat.

--

Ward Griffithswdg3rd@home.com

http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two counter- vailing circumstances. First, they themselves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine."

Wendy McElroy

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: Jon Patton Ogden II jon@ogdenco.net

Date: 2/12/00 2:59 PM Pacific Standard Time

More than one place to eat:

Of course. That's a given under either system. But where's the guarantee that no gummit health inspectors will decrease (or even not increase) my chances of dying of food poisoning?

(Ward, I'm am not baiting you, and I don't have an agenda regarding this. I honestly see reasons why we should and why we shouldn't have government health inspectors, and I'm interested in hearing why you have made up your mind.)

--

Jon

Knowing next to nothing has never prevented anyone in this newsgroup from joining in ... myself included.

--William Dennis

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: Ogden Johnson III oj3@x-press.net

Date: 2/12/00 5:39 PM Pacific Standard Time

Re: Health certification:

And the problem in the pre-health department certification days was surviving a meal in one of the bad ones to have a chance at a meal in one of the good ones.

OJ III

[Having said that, the ludicrous sight of the health department crackdown on the traditional method for curing ducks for use in creating Peking Duck that occurred here in DC a few years ago was just that - totally ludicrous. Fortunately their VA counterparts did not jump on that particular bandwagon, and we can still get traditional Peking Duck here.]

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/10/00 11:09 AM Pacific Standard Time

.... He and Mr Charlton both come out with some things that could slot right into the Notebooks without any alteration.....

Just finished the book; cancel the above or rather put a big tick next to it; compare these:

"Dad says you should always budget luxuries first." "Another ingredient for a happy marriage: Budget the luxuries _first_!"

The part about luck not existing is also repeated (reinforced?) later in the book by Peewee's father;

"'Luck' is a question- begging word [.......] "good luck" follows careful preparation; "bad luck" comes from sloppiness."

This was obviously a point that Heinlein wanted us to notice; a link to the Boy Scout rule of being prepared? I'm not sure I agree 100% with it. It seems to be correct in as far as it goes but I don't believe that all good luck can be traced back to good preparation; i.e. not chance but deserved rewards for careful thinking. I think there is a random element involved. What singles out the person who wins the lottery jackpot; how were his choice of numbers better than someone else's?

Other trivia; notice how Heinlein pays compliments to two friends; making Asimov the author of a book on biochemistry ( or is that a real book? I asked once and I've forgotten...) and making Chesley Bonestell the artist who worked on Destination Moon into a verb;

"I had read articles in the 'Scientific American' and seen pictures in 'LIFE', bonestelled to look like photographs..."

I also notice that the chronology is a bit confusing; it has to be set later than 1958 and I recall we tried to sort this out once on the sff heinlein group according to the relative positions of Neptune and Pluto. However Kip mentions that the discoverer of Pluto, Clyde Tombaugh who was born in 1906 was still alive and well, working on a telescope to photograph Pluto. Kip says Tombaugh discovered Pluto "years before I was born." This means that it can't be all that much into the future. I suppose it would have to be set in the 1970's at the latest. Or a different time line of course.

Another common theme is the inquisitiveness of both Peewee and Kip. They are very similar in many ways. Kip says quite often that "I've got Peewee's failing myself; when I don't understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why." Of course, it's pretty clear that it's not a failing but a sign of intelligence.

One thing I just noticed; why would the neglected prisoner in the pit on Pluto have become a skeleton? In the first place wouldn't the Wormfaces have eaten him? Secondly I would imagine that without the terrestrial bugs and such, there would be nothing to eat him; wouldn't he just go all icky?

Jane

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone)

Date: 2/10/00 11:45 AM Pacific Standard Time

Jane:

....One thing I just noticed; why would the neglected prisoner in the pit on Pluto have become a skeleton? In the first place wouldn't the Wormfaces have eaten him? Secondly I would imagine that without the terrestrial bugs and such, there would be nothing to eat him; wouldn't he just go all icky?....

Maybe the Wormfaces put a few unshackled long pigs in with the about-to-be-a-skeleton to graze? They had to conserve rations one way or the other I suppose.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/10/00 12:04 PM Pacific Standard Time

Yuck! That's as bad as the description of Peewee and Kip fighting the wormface and crunching its head. Did anyone get reminded of Jock Dubois and the Martian when they read about Peewee jumping on the WF?

Jane

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: wdg3rd@home.com

Date: 2/11/00 1:43 AM Pacific Standard Time

ddavitt wrote about Heinlein's position on "luck.":

The "luck" referred to is not random chance, like somebody on the dole beating the house odds and winning a government lottery. (Nobody who's actually studied mathematics plays those games). _Kipp_ thinks he had luck, but notice that he wasn't playing a lottery -- he put _work_ into the soap contest, not just random numbers or his shoe size. And he didn't get first prize (in _that_ contest anyway). But yes, he was there with Oscar when Peewee needed a signal to home onto. She needed luck more than he did at the time and got it.

Do you think that somebody playing every number he can count to on the lottery is "being prepared"? His starving children might disagree.

Yes, poor people often win lotteries -- the advertising seems to be slanted to attract them, especially with the current lack of teaching maths beyond simple arithmetic in schools. Check the followups on those "winners" that are occcasionaly published -- then go read the "Rissa Kerguellen" trilogy by F. M. Busby.

Re: Other trivia Jane noted:

Yes, Asimov had published on biochemistry before then. The name "Bonestell" became a verb during the production of "Destination Moon" if I recall. It was in use until new techniques were developed in the making of "2001".

Re: the confusing chronology:

Obviously a different timeline from ours, split happened about the time of publication (Sputnik).

Re: inquisitiveness of both Peewee and Kip.

I was often curious when I was younger. Often still am, despite the grey in my beard.

Regarding the skeleton in the pit:

Most of the "icky" is the early action of decay organisms. I thought that the atmosphere was supposed to be a bit dry, that generally causes mummification -- and a dried body looks like a skeleton to those who aren't looking for the shrunken tissues holding the bones together.

--

Ward Griffithswdg3rd@home.com

http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two counter- vailing circumstances. First, they them- selves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine."

Wendy McElroy

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/11/00 8:26 AM Pacific Standard Time

To Ward re luck:

I said that I agreed with the comment to a certain extent but I would not dismiss the workings of chance and to say that they don't count as luck is begging the question IMO. The lottery is nothing but luck; some people put a lot of effort into working out ways to predict which numbers will be chosen but winning it has nothing to do with preparation or hard work and everything to do with being "lucky" . That was the point I was making. OK, forget the lottery; too many side issues, we'll be back on taking the vote away from poor people who waste money on lottery tickets [wg]

How about an eccentric millionaire who one day walks down the street, giving money away to everyone he sees with red hair? If you are one of the ones he chooses how can being on that street with red hair be the result of preparation? Or what about every traffic light being on green the day that you are late for that important interview? It could happen and you would be lucky despite being totally unprepared since an efficient person would have made sure that they left home in plenty of time.

I would say that being prepared *increases* your chances of being lucky maybe...... Re: "bonestelling" as a verb:

Really? What did it mean exactly?

Jane

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: wdg3rd@home.com

Date: 2/11/00 12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time

Message-id: [38A430EB.3328556A@home.com]

"Bonestelling": To create backgrounds which can survive cameras panning as the actors move, generally. That and to create the best "starscapes" available before big cameras were launched into space (though my old friend Morris Scott Dollens was almost as good, and better at alien landscapes, but Morris acknowledged a stylistic debt to Bonestell).

--

Ward Griffithswdg3rd@home.com

http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two counter- vailing circumstances. First, they them- selves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine."

Wendy McElroy

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/11/00 1:07 PM Pacific Standard Time

Re: "bonestelling."

Thanks. The lunar sets in DM are very good, especially since they didn't have photographs of the real thing to use for inspiration. I found the article on the shooting of the film in "Requiem" to be fascinating; I read it just before I watched the film and kept an eye open for some of the FX.

Jane

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 2/11/00 8:33 PM Pacific Standard Time

There is a somewhat inaccurate biography of Bonestell on the net that says Bonestell was hired before Pal bought the property; not so, Mrs. H says; RAH convinced Pal to hire Bonestell.

Bill

Subject: Re: RAH-RG next AIM meeting, HSS--WT

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/16/00 9:00 AM Pacific Standard Time

How about looking at the villains in Heinlein and the way they move from the OTT (that legless horror in Lost Legacy) to the ironic ( Heinlein as Black Hat). There aren't that many out and out baddies in Heinlein; there are people who act against the hero ( Bill in Double Star) but they are not pure evil.

I also find it worth considering that some of the most memorable are female; Mrs Grew from Podkayne and Mrs Keithley from Gulf. How do these two compare? How do their motives differ and which one is the worst from a Heinlein POV?

Did Heinlein stop introducing the bad guys because of the inherent danger of falling into the clich‚ trap in the same way that aliens vanished from his books? What defines a Heinlein villain? His/her actions or his/her beliefs (or lack of them)? Which is your favourite? Suggested books, Poddy, Gulf.

Jane

On to the Thursday Chat

AOL Robert A. Heinlein Readers' Group February 17, 2000

Topic: Have Space Suit -- Will Travel

Co-host: GCEMS909

BEVTESS: I like Stargate

BEVTESS: Hi Pol

BPRAL22169:Yo -- I was preoccupied setting up my log manager.

GCEMS909: good

Polgaratex:Hello Bev, hello room

Astyanax12:Good evening

BPRAL22169:In some ways the TV series is better than the movie.

OHostZim: Hi, John, Bev, everyone ...

BEVTESS: yes it is

BEVTESS: Hi Ast

Polgaratex:subject please

GCEMS909: david, do you have the startup stuff?

BEVTESS: Have

BEVTESS: Spacesuit will Travel

Polgaratex:[G] understand, mean subject NOW

BPRAL22169:Roswell held my interest for just one episode; at the second I said to myself, "self," I said, "been there, done that. I'm finished."

GCEMS909: getting acquainted, haven't started book yet

BEVTESS: glad I wasnt the only one who thought that

OHostZim: Weclome, everyone. Tonight we're discussing Have Space Suit--Will Travel

BEVTESS: I cant wait for the new series that is coming out in the fall

BPRAL22169:And now there's 6 million dollar man meets -- what was that movie with Fred Ward as the guy who got taken into a secret organization and trained by a Korean martial artist?

OHostZim: GCEM's the chat co-host and it's all yours, John ...

BEVTESS: Remo Williams

Polgaratex:hmmm Bonzai something

Polgaratex:oh right bev [G]

BPRAL22169:Yes -- "The Adventure Begins." Buckaroo Banzai was another movie.

GCEMS909: Thanks David; well here goes into the book itself

OHostZim: My AOL's acting up ... so please, everyone, keep your logs running...

GCEMS909: as a first thought, how about the education system presented inthe high school at the beginning of text;

Polgaratex:all too accurate for one thing

GCEMS909: do we have that problem now? i.e. social promotion, etc.

BEVTESS: it never seems to change

BPRAL22169:I think it was only a very slight exaggeration at the time; by my high school days in the late 60's it wasn't an exaggeration at all.

Polgaratex:Sure it does Bev, for the worse

GCEMS909: I think my children would not recognize a "school" asking about our "family council"

BEVTESS: not for the better, thats for sure

Polgaratex:I cant believe how little they actually have to learn now

BPRAL22169:That kind of thing I ran across helping a teenager with homework just a couple of years ago.

BEVTESS: I can, the kids are getting so stupid

GCEMS909: our system requires an exit exam for diploma math, reading and english are the only subjects on it

Polgaratex:(shrug) no one forces them to learn, it might damage their psyches

BEVTESS: they cant even count money with out a calculater

BPRAL22169:Where do you live?

GCEMS909: South Carolina

BPRAL22169:I can't think of any California district that has an exit exam...

Polgaratex:Hello Lucy

Lucylou98:Hi, Pol

Polgaratex:we have TASS tests

BEVTESS: Hi lucy

Lucylou98:Hey, bev, everyone else

GCEMS909: i guess that is because we have the feds mandating our system for equal access, etc.

OHostZim: Yes, they've just started that in California, praise Allah.

Polgaratex:what a joke, you have to pass a 6th grade level test to graduate..

Lucylou98:What is this test?

Polgaratex:and thats all they do, study to pass the TASS

BPRAL22169:How much of a joke is it? What's the pass-fail ratio?

Polgaratex:pass about 75%

Lucylou98:Graduation exam?

Polgaratex:my friend the ex teacher says it is a total joke

GCEMS909: yes lucy for hs graduation

BPRAL22169:When I started teaching in college, 80% were failing the English skills test at 29 points out of 100.

Polgaratex:OHmy

Lucylou98:wow

BPRAL22169:That was, I believe, 1974

GCEMS909: i just had a hs graduate fail my basic emt course with a 47% average and he didn't realize that he had done this poorly over a semester

Lucylou98:That Graduation test is a joke, Polg.

Polgaratex:it sure is Luch

Lucylou98:How in the world does someone even make a 47???

GCEMS909: slightly better than guessing

Polgaratex:its a disgrace, and now they want to dumb it down even more for the Hispanics

GCEMS909: but as in hsswt, if prodded, can a student get an education in our systems

Lucylou98:Po, the people I see taking classes with me...

BPRAL22169:Well, it's always been true that self-educators can get an education in spite of the system

Lucylou98:well, it's shameful how bad it is.

Polgaratex:"they and the blacks cant pass because they are slanted toward the whites"

BEVTESS: so they say

Polgaratex:but the asiatics surpass the whites...

GCEMS909: and i thought that was only supposed to happen here in the south

Lucylou98:GC, you can get an education

BEVTESS: if they learn to read, they should be able to learn something

OHostZim: Do you think anyone believes that when it's claimed?

Lucylou98:No, Zim

Polgaratex:the hispanics and blacks should feel insulted, and a lot of the kids do...

GCEMS909: good bev, reading is the essential ingredient

OHostZim: Or, isn't is just another crutch ...

Polgaratex:[G] I am in Tex GC

Lucylou98:a big crutch

OHostZim: Something the ESL teaching types push to justify their jobs?

BPRAL22169:Good thing Ron H isn't here or we would be talking about The Bell Curve about now.

Lucylou98:You have to go out and take your education...not supposed to be handed to you.

Polgaratex:I have to agree Lucy

Lucylou98:BPRAL, don't even get me started

GCEMS909: kip's father takes control and forces him to take courses, then he finds out that learning can be fun

BEVTESS: you also have to want to learn

BPRAL22169:Perish the thought, Luce!

Polgaratex:of course it can, and is

Lucylou98:True, bev

OHostZim: But ... isn't the education problem something that existed before all this business about minorities.

Lucylou98:people just like to make excuses.

BPRAL22169:Started with the factory education system in the 20's.

Polgaratex:'sure, they have been dumbing down the students for years

GCEMS909: during wwi, the army alpha a reading exam found that ~29%of soldiers could not read

BEVTESS: when they taught Dick and Jane, 90% knew how to read

OHostZim: In the sixties schools went away from discipline .. what else was abandoned?

Polgaratex:then they hit the real world...what a shock

BPRAL22169:Ironic -- Montessori and James started at about the same time; Montessori has to be taught person by person so it didn't get adopted; James could be industrialized even though it does not actually do any education, so it got adopted.

Polgaratex:John I am not surprised

Lucylou98:I went to a Montessori school as a child

GCEMS909: the "lancastrian" large group lecture method

OHostZim: What is the "Factory education system"?

GCEMS909: i actually took some "education" courses when i was teaching

BPRAL22169:Conceptualizes students as ingoods and graduate as outgoods.

Lucylou98:GC, what did you teach?

BPRAL22169:Everybody gets standardized inputs.

GCEMS909: physics, chemistry, geology and astronomy

Polgaratex:and they produce little robots...or dropouts

OHostZim: How did that differ from what was likely to be found in 50s schools?

Polgaratex:wow GC

BPRAL22169:I've come to the conclusion that robots is the actual intended product. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Lucylou98:Cool GM!

GCEMS909: now i'm into emergency medicine

Lucylou98:Gc i mean

Polgaratex:[G] they only offered Geometry when I was in HS

OHostZim: Hi, Fortinclan ... discussion education in Heinlein's Have Space Suit--Will Travel.

BEVTESS: in the 50ths and 60ths, if you didnt get a pasing grade, you repeated the grade

Lucylou98:Bev, don't they pass any student after 2 years now?

GCEMS909: so a student can get an education in spite of the system!

OHostZim: Here, in California, under Davis's new standards, they're reinstituting that now.

Polgaratex:Hi Roger

BEVTESS: when I went to school, a kid was in the same grade for 4 years, finally quit

Lucylou98:one thing about forcing kids to take certain classes....

GCEMS909: kip wanted to be an engineer, selecting two very good schools to be rejected by at the beginning of the book; then he showed ability in refurbishing the spacesuit

ROGER7363:Hi

Lucylou98:Hi, Roger

OHostZim: At 4th, 8th, and 12th grades ... should be every grade.

OHostZim: Evening, Roger

OHostZim: Much like a hobby that many kids were encouraged to have in the 50s ...

Polgaratex:hobbies instead of vidio games, imagine

GCEMS909: i had a "lab" in the basement, even blew it up making black powder once

OHostZim: use your hands to do things! Is that something they do today?

BEVTESS: I used to read a book a night, didnt watch much tv then

OHostZim: Do kids on academic courses take shops today in High School, or Jr. Hi?

Polgaratex:not much Zim, not much

OHostZim: Are the still available for all kids?

OHostZim: they

Lucylou98:My mom took the TV away from us for 5 yrs.

Polgaratex:they are here

Lucylou98:Did a world of good.....we all read.

ROGER7363:actually even when I was in school, very few of the academic curriculum kids took shop

GCEMS909: shop is available, but usually not taken by the academic kids

BEVTESS: school is getting to specialized today

ROGER7363:wouldn't have had time in schedule hardly, not if took all the recommended classes

OHostZim: We were usually encouraged to take one shop class each semester ... 7 classes each day.

BEVTESS: I graduated high school with 21 credits

GCEMS909: when i graduated, trig and analyt geom were top math classes, my kids were taking calculus in high school

Lucylou98:I wasn't allowed to take typing because Mom thought it was a waste of time..

Polgaratex:ours only went to trig

Dehede011:Sorry to be late, I just got in from dance class.

ROGER7363:my high school went from 7

ROGER7363:periods with a "study hall"

ROGER7363:each day to only 6 between my

Polgaratex:Hi Dehe and Doc

ROGER7363:9 and 10 grade I think

OHostZim: "drafting" counted as a shop, of course ...

Lucylou98:Hi, Ron

Doc4Kidz: hello group

BPRAL22169:That's ok, Ron: we were glad you missed an earlier part.

Lucylou98:Hi Doc

Dehede011:Hi, LL and all

Doc4Kidz: hello

ROGER7363:before all the shop, band, chorus were your 7 class

OHostZim: Evening Ron and Barry

Doc4Kidz: hi zim

Dehede011:Hi OHostZim

GCEMS909: hi doc and ron, discussing educational systems and modern education

BEVTESS: even phys ed is a credit course now

OHostZim: Band and Athletics were after school classes.

Polgaratex:sure it is Bev

GCEMS909: based on school in chapter 1

Lucylou98:Really, Zim?

BEVTESS: wasnt when I was in school

OHostZim: PE was required , however, for every student.

BEVTESS: only had to take it

GCEMS909: How would we respond to our children coming home to see how our "family council" was organized.

BEVTESS: to pass

BPRAL22169:I'd ask if the teacher had just finished reading Number of the Beast.

BPRAL22169:(Sorry -- low flying cheap shot; I couldn't resist)

OHostZim: Has anyone ever had an organized 'family council' .. we did, as a joke ... once.

GCEMS909: did it work?

Lucylou98:Zim , we had Family Home evenings.

OHostZim: As a joke.

BEVTESS: would have been funny, I went to public school, hubby went to catholic school

GCEMS909: my children have been brought up on: yes sir, no sir, no excuse sir

GCEMS909: lucy == family home evenings, similar to lds ideas?

OHostZim: What was the name of the fellow in the 40s and earlier who came up with the idea of a comprehensive high school?

Lucylou98:They were LDS family home evenings.

OHostZim: Began with a "C"?

Dehede011:I always thought the LDS had something in those family home evenings.

Lucylou98:We mostly got our lectures during it.

BEVTESS: my kids all passed with Regents deplomias

OHostZim: Division into categories ... academic, general, shop, business curicula.

GCEMS909: ah, bev is from ny

BPRAL22169:Probably not in spelling.

Lucylou98:Ron, if you are a kid, it gets boring.

BEVTESS: we did something right

BEVTESS: yup

Polgaratex:ok...what is an LDS? and what is a regents diplioma

GCEMS909: ok, let's go on, kip meets peewee by using space suit, and then the **** hits the fan

Doc4Kidz: regents is a NY thing

Lucylou98:Polgara, LDS are The Mormons.

BEVTESS: have to get a grade of 75 in everything to pass grade

Polgaratex:ahhhhh understand ...DOH have quite a few in my family

Lucylou98:reminds me of LSD

BEVTESS: my typing is the pits tonite

OHostZim: Standardized final exam for each class for regents?

Doc4Kidz: special final-type exam in regents courses. Standardized statewide finals

Doc4Kidz: thats it Dave

Dehede011:I wonder what a evening at home was like when RAH was a boy.

OHostZim: Not a really bad idea.

GCEMS909: in fact regeants diploma can get special financial aid to go to college

Doc4Kidz: I can appreciate that now

Doc4Kidz: not then

Lucylou98:I could do without comprehensive finals.

OHostZim: Probably pretty much like most of that generation ... kids doing homework, then chores, then

Polgaratex:[G] skip the course, take the finals, I love it

Dehede011:I can account for four Heinlein brothers offhand. One was a General, one a Colonel and one

OHostZim: help each other with schoolwork of youngers, then read and go to bed.

Dehede011:a Professor of Political Science.

BEVTESS: no couldnt do that, was a percentage of the final and years grade

Dehede011:RAH, of course, we know about.

Dehede011:I'm tying this back to LL

BPRAL22169:Jay Clare died just recently -- a few weeks ago.

Polgaratex:well I was teasing Bev...but would be nice

GCEMS909: all having acquired an education

OHostZim: I'd look at To Sail Beyond the Sunset for the picture of what it was like.

Dehede011:and her comment about the evening being boring to a child.

Polgaratex:and can do that at the college level in a lot of basic courses of course

BPRAL22169:One problem with using TSBTS and TEFL to infer what the Heinlein household was like:

OHostZim: Because that was how it was portrayed in Frank Galbreath's family too ...

BPRAL22169:Brian Smith was well off; Rex Heinlein was a clerk. With 7 kids.

GCEMS909: was brian smith the ideal that rah wanted?

OHostZim: But the stories I get from my mother and got from my dad was pretty much the same as that.

Dehede011:Yes, but Bill that brain factor was there. I wonder what difference if any that made.

OHostZim: Everyone had chores, everyone had homework, everyone taught younger brothers and sisters ...

BEVTESS: almost sounded like Cheaper by the dozen

OHostZim: etc., and everyone read.

BPRAL22169:And outside jobs.

Lucylou98:My sisters wouldn't have helped me for anything!

BPRAL22169:I'll let you in on a secret: you probably wouldn't have wanted their help.

GCEMS909: early 20th century, no tv, radio, etc to take away from the fantasy land found in reading

Lucylou98:BP, I think you're right.

OHostZim: Your sisters should have gotten the back of their mother's hand ... they'd have gotten my mother's, and certainly my grandmother's.

BEVTESS: mine too

Lucylou98:you know I told on them

Polgaratex:We did not get at TV till I was 12

Lucylou98:They got spanked often

Lucylou98:My whole family always read. Just something we did.

BEVTESS: my grandkids have to do their homework before tv or puter

GCEMS909: wb doc

Doc4Kidz: (I hate when that happens)

Lucylou98:Everyone reading at the dinner table.

OHostZim: Outside jobs were something you did during daylight hours ... but only if homework was done without fail.

Doc4Kidz: and it takes no less than 10 tries to get back on!)

OHostZim: Hi, Darlene ... talking about education in HSS--WT

DarleneAin:don't get me started :)

Doc4Kidz: we read at the dinner table. We decide

before hand if we're reading or talking

Lucylou98:Doc, I think about that now and it seems humorous.

Doc4Kidz: how so?

Polgaratex:sheeesh I got the back of Dads hand if I tried to read and eat

Lucylou98:All heads buried in a book, silence the whole time.

BEVTESS: mine too, the dinner table is for eating not reading

Doc4Kidz: it's not every time, and silence is extremely rare in My house

Polgaratex:[G] NOW I read nearly every meal

BEVTESS: me too

OHostZim: Kip is an only child ... how unusual is that today? To have one self-motivated as that?

Lucylou98:Wish i could find a way to read and drive.

OHostZim: Notice:there are no chums always hanging around ... unrealistic?

Polgaratex:Me too Lucy

Doc4Kidz: me too lucy

Lucylou98:Zim, I think it's not unusual.

Dehede011:Zim, why is that unrealistic?

Lucylou98:No books on tape wii do.

BEVTESS: I have those books you listen too

DarleneAin:I listen to lots of books on tape...but it is hard to find what I want to read.

OHostZim: Doesn't read like all the juvenile books I was used to read ... where's the sidekick?

Polgaratex:(smile) PeeWee?

Dehede011:Right RAH didn't use that cliche did he?

GCEMS909: given his father's philosophy on raising children, wasn't kip "forced" into being self reliant?

Doc4Kidz: I can't support it, but I think a "sidekick" would have gotten in RAH's way so he left one out

Dehede011:Did he ever use one?

Lucylou98:I think some children are naturally self reliant.

Polgaratex:Dehe, the cat in The Door into Summer

OHostZim: Possible he was writing this one for the kid without close friends ... I think he used side-

Polgaratex:great sidekick

OHostZim: kicks in many of the other books.

Dehede011:Right, Polgar.....

Doc4Kidz: Petronius the Aribter. Always loved that name

Polgaratex:and an excellent character

Doc4Kidz: (occasionally I can spell it right, too)

OHostZim: I.e., the boys in Galileo have their club, Jim Marlowe has his buddy, the twins have each other

GCEMS909: poddy has her brother

Doc4Kidz: even Thorby has a slave friend, mentioned but never met

OHostZim: Kip has 'Oscar' ...

Doc4Kidz: Then his "cousins" on board Sisu

GCEMS909: right david, oscar is more of a "sidekick" than peewee

BPRAL22169:The closest I can come to a "sidekick" is the Texas character in Space Cadet.

GCEMS909: but then, what role is peewee? costar?

BPRAL22169:Comic relief -- tries to make a mint julep and gets sick

OHostZim: Well, there are the three roommates in Space Cadet ... funny how the Texas character in Space Cadet evolved into Tom Corbett instead of Matt, wasn't it?

Polgaratex:We Texans ARE characters

Doc4Kidz: Didn't the Tex Jarman character become the Lead for Space cadet?

OHostZim: LOL ....

Doc4Kidz: You're too fast for me Dave

OHostZim: It's the Zim influence, Barry ...

BPRAL22169:And, of course, the brooklynite in Destination Moon

Doc4Kidz: based on Asimov

Doc4Kidz: (according to Asimov, that is)

Dehede011:Again comic relief.

OHostZim: But getting back to Kip ... no close boyfriend ... why do you suppose it struck such a chord that it won the awards the others didn't?

BEVTESS: well I gotta watch Er tonite so I will be back later

BEVTESS: bye

Lucylou98:bye Bev

GCEMS909: ttfn

BPRAL22169:Let me know if Kellie Martin bites the big one.

OHostZim: Okay, Bev ... don't tell us how it comes out.

OHostZim: Booo ...

GCEMS909: elaborate on awards, david, i'm uneducated

OHostZim: HSS-WT was voted a juvenile award, forget what it was called that was very prestigious, for best juvenile of the year ...

BPRAL22169:Was that the Sequoia Award? I can't remember.

OHostZim: I think so ...

Astyanax12:Sequoyah Award, given by the children of OK

Lucylou98:committing that to memory.

Doc4Kidz: HSSWT has always seemed the most farfetched of all RAH's stuff, to me.

OHostZim: Yes, and the only award of that sort to any of the juveniles (excpt for the Hugo that went to Troopers)

GCEMS909: barry, as farfetched how about the "courtroom" at the end of the book?

Lucylou98:I loved The Door into Summer. It should have won an award.

Doc4Kidz: just HAPPENED to be an exceptional young man with exceptional background, just HAPPENED to win a space suit, just HAPPENED to get it operational; just HAPPENED to be kidnapped into

Polgaratex:Agree Lucy, and my favorite of all...Puppet Masters

Doc4Kidz: Space, etc...

OHostZim: In a way ... HSSWT is a 'juvenile' in the old mould ... about a schoolkid, not about pioneer

Polgaratex:wellll now Doc, if not for all those coincidences, no story

Doc4Kidz: yes, that's what makes it strained to me

GCEMS909: kind of an interesting sequence to save the world from being rotated 90 degrees

OHostZim: kids, academy classmates, etc. About a soda jerk.

Doc4Kidz: yes, again Kip just HAPPENS to be the best advocate we could have had

GCEMS909: with a young friend who is as exceptional

Polgaratex:also tho, those kind of "happen to haves" make up a lot of the world too

BPRAL22169:I think you're straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

Doc4Kidz: yes. See Burkes "Connections"

Lucylou98:Polgara, you mean in real world?

Polgaratex:yes Lucy

OHostZim: Reminds me of a line in Glory Road ... the Tarkenton hero in the Spillane world.

Polgaratex:more in fiction of course

OHostZim: Kip, except for his mind, is the least well-equipped juvenile hero for what he finds himself into.

GCEMS909: fortunately he is very adaptable

BPRAL22169:As each of [us] goes into life completely unprepared for the real world.

Polgaratex:he is pretty clueless in a lot of ways

BPRAL22169:So Kip's hs is a metaphor for the universal situation, isn't it?

GCEMS909: good bill

OHostZim: Possibly more so that many of the other heroes in the juveniles.

OHostZim: Very well-exercised mind, little else to count upon.

BPRAL22169:On the other hand, isn't the well-exercised mind the most fundamental asset?

Lucylou98:good point there, Zim.

BPRAL22169:H makes a point in the book about fortune favoring the prepared mind.

Polgaratex:a know-it-all genius for a partner aint too bad

OHostZim: Kip's the closest that comes to the 'greasy grind' sort of teenager that everyone pretends not to want to be.

BPRAL22169:Kip had the suit because he was interested in space; none of this stuff "just happened."

Polgaratex:very good point BP

OHostZim: I'm beginning to understand, perhaps, why it won that award ...[g]

GCEMS909: and he found out about not winning the sweepstakes

Doc4Kidz: I was always interested in space. I still build and fly rockets...where's MY suit

Polgaratex:[G] you did NOT use enuf soap Doc

BPRAL22169:It does have a simpler and more obvious development pattern than most of the other juveniles

GCEMS909: you need to sell a lot of soap barry

BPRAL22169:linear expansion outward and outward, then collapse back on the center.

BPRAL22169:Obviously you dont know enough people who will give you their soap wrappers, Doc.

Doc4Kidz: that's it, I guess

Dehede011:Did anyone else see the connection between the soap and RAH's 50 recommendations to Annapolis?

GCEMS909: outward enough to get to another galaxy, and look back at the milky way

Polgaratex:and have to be a good slogan writer

OHostZim: I think Kip is the one of the juvenile heroes that readers feel the closest to, because he's the closest to being a real kid.

BPRAL22169:Ron, what recommendations?

Doc4Kidz: good point, Ron.

OHostZim: The one hundred letters of recommendation he got written, [g] ...

Doc4Kidz: 50 for others, and 50 just for RAH

Dehede011:Bill, the old story is that he collected 50 letters of recommendation to Annapolis.

BPRAL22169:Oh, that's right. For some reason I fixated on the 1950's instead of the 50 letters.

OHostZim: Knew there was a 100 in there somewhere, ....

Dehede011:Basically the same tactic as the kid submitting soap labels and slogans.

BPRAL22169:I thought it was interesting how RAH brought in the 50's quiz frenzies.

OHostZim: Another TV connection with the title as well

BPRAL22169:Palladin, meet Curley.

OHostZim: Tried real hard to connect with the nascent TV generation ... and offer an alternative

BPRAL22169:I've been turning that show over in my mind trying to come up with some other parallel -- can't so far; just the catchy name.

OHostZim: to "Ace" the drugstore cowboy.

OHostZim: Kip becomes PeeWee's knight errant ...

BPRAL22169:That completely escaped me.

OHostZim: saves her from the dungeon vile of the aliens.

OHostZim: In his suit of armor, Oscar ...

BPRAL22169:In the sense that it becomes a big intergalactic government kind of thing, though, it's a bit more like Wild, Wild West -- which didn't air for 9 years after HSS-WT

OHostZim: True ... Palladin was a lot like the Wild, Wild West thing ...

Lucylou98:What a wonderful show that was

OHostZim: without the James Bondish add-ons.

BPRAL22169:But a professional playboy instead of a Secret Service agent.

OHostZim: (I wanted to grow up just like Palladin!)

BPRAL22169:It's much easier to get business cards printed nowadays.

OHostZim: LOL ... and I bet Oscar did too.

OHostZim: Evelyn Cyril, of course, not the spacesuit.

BPRAL22169:So, the book is kind of like an episode of HAVE GUN, blown up and made skiffy --The Kind of thing Galaxy said it would never print (and then did over and over)

OHostZim: Except that there's no Palladin to call in ... instead, this nerdy kid Kip does it himself.

BPRAL22169:(i.e., horse operas changed into space operas)

Lucylou98:horse operas?

BPRAL22169:You know -- Louis L'Amour books.

GCEMS909: cowboy and indian book

Lucylou98:ooo

Polgaratex:Zane Grey

OHostZim: Fran Striker

Lucylou98:only read one L'Amour book

Polgaratex:Lone Ranger

BPRAL22169:Zane Grey?

Dehede011:Louis L'A..... played with Science Fiction

Polgaratex:you dont know Zane Grey??? ohmy

Dehede011:Where did the Lone Ranger story come from?

BPRAL22169:Sorry -- yes, I meant is Zane Grey an exemplar of the horse opera also?

Polgaratex:White Knight

Polgaratex:ohhh some of his

GCEMS909: lone ranger is from texas

OHostZim: Download most of his (Grey) as e texts.

BPRAL22169:And of course let us not forget Zane Grey's "Riders of the Purple Wage."

Dehede011:Yes, his name is John Reed. But who was the original author

Doc4Kidz: great uncle of WHAT other (TV) "super" hero? (for 2 points)

OHostZim: Sofaras I know, Fran Striker just invented him ...

Lucylou98:never could read westerns.

Polgaratex:chuckle

Doc4Kidz: hint: Bruce Lee

Dehede011:You mentioned Louis L and RAH. Each the best in their respective fields.

Polgaratex:Green Hornets side kick?

BPRAL22169:Well, then, we must mention Raymond Chandler to bring in another field.

Dehede011:It is interesting to me how extremely well read each was in his own field

OHostZim: (knew it once, Doc, cannot remember)

Doc4Kidz: YES! Britt Reed, The Green Hornet

Dehede011:But how they came by their educations by diametrically opposite means

OHostZim: How does Chandler relate Bill?

BPRAL22169:Best in his field -- but another reason, Chandler's editing technique is extremely like RAH's. There was a major reissue of Chandler about 12-15 years ago, and his essay on how to edit was

Dehede011:Yet, both men stood out by far exceeding their competitors in knowledge.

BPRAL22169:printed in one of the collections. I was amazed at how similarly he and RAH condensed text.

Dehede011:Bill is that article of Chandler's on editing worth looking up?

BPRAL22169:I think so, as a study in technique.

Dehede011:You are talking about the self editing an author does?

BPRAL22169:Yes.

Dehede011:Thank you.

BPRAL22169:RAH always wrote big and cut to size.

OHostZim: Not the 1971 edition of Chandler w/Joan

Kahn's intro, was it?

BPRAL22169:Like Stranger was 220,000 in ms and 160 in original publication.

BPRAL22169:Might be.

Dehede011:Did Chandler do the same?

Lucylou98:wow

BPRAL22169:There was a uniform series of paperbacks, but I haven't seen them in so long I don't have detail memory of them.

Lucylou98:he was a writing demon wasn't he?

Dehede011:Yes, but what length was the unexpurgated version of STRANGER

BPRAL22169:220,000 words. The 1992 publication was his submission draft.

OHostZim: There was a one-volume omnibus of Chandler that was released about two months ago ...

BPRAL22169:I think I'll drop by the Mysterious Bookshop this weekend and see if any of that series are available. Is available

OHostZim: Play heck getting all of RAH in one volume ... have to issue a little glass like the OED

BPRAL22169:I was talking with Stover about doing a Library of America and we concluded it couldn't be done -- have to be at least 2 vols.

OHostZim: LOL ... with a little magnifying glass, eh ...

Dehede011:I wonder how long STRANGER was originally. Did he cut it to 220,000 words?

BPRAL22169:No - he wrote it at 220,000 and cut it to 160,000

BPRAL22169:Just a selection in those 2 vols.

Dehede011:Yes, I understand that. My understanding is that he first submitted 220K words.

BPRAL22169:You would need one vol. just for novels; the second allows you to get in some of the shorts

Dehede011:But was that also the length of his first draft?

OHostZim: We had some discussion about how remarkable all the RAH juvenile characters are. ....

BPRAL22169:Apparently there was only one draft.

Dehede011:Okay.

OHostZim: Anyone find that disturbing?

OHostZim: PeeWee apologizes for being a genius ... and what her father replies?

GCEMS909: do we find remarkable characters disturbing?

OHostZim: How does that tie into a 'juvenile' series?

OHostZim: Some modern day types seem to ... not equalitarian enuff for them.

BPRAL22169:They are the people who are just going to have to die off.

OHostZim: It's 'unrealistic' they say.

Lucylou98:Equalitarian smalitarian

Lucylou98:no such thing as equal

OHostZim: They'd have been happy, I suppose, if "Ace" had been the hero ...

Polgaratex:Its fiction for heaven sake...SciFi to boot

OHostZim: out borrowing 'Oscar' when PeeWee called ...

OHostZim: but what would 'Ace' have been equipped to do?

Doc4Kidz: die

GCEMS909: ace would have peed off the wormface and gotten himself killed by being macho

OHostZim: Probably wouldn't have heard the call ... can't figure out how to turn on this radio!

Doc4Kidz: or not turn on the air supply

GCEMS909: anoxia is not good for a body

Doc4Kidz: perfect Darwin award material

OHostZim: Is "Iunio" an average character put in the novel for a contrast?

OHostZim: Your basic "everyman"?

GCEMS909: not to mention the aspect of evolution introduced with the neanderthal

OHostZim: [----guess whose favorite character Iunio is ?

BPRAL22169:Note how he snuck in the "not linear relative" -- that wasn't standard doctrine in the late 50's.

Polgaratex:gotta run all, very good chat

GCEMS909: and done before the Leakey's were in Africa

Lucylou98:bye Polgara

Polgaratex:bye

OHostZim: Come on, somebody tell me whether Iunio is average everyman, bye Pol

GCEMS909: come back

Lucylou98:I'm not saying a word

GCEMS909: no iunio was not the par for the roman times, he was the specialized fighting soldier

BPRAL22169:Perhaps an average Legionnaire, but not an average everyman, I'd say

BPRAL22169:Yes -- the Roman army was a whole way of life -- and enlistment went from 7 to over 20 years during the early imperial period.

OHostZim: The baboon on watch perhaps ...

OHostZim: bear in mind he's in his mid thirties and just making centurio ...up in Scotland ... probably been campaigning for 15 years plus ... not the sort to meet on a palisade or a dark alley as Kip notes.

GCEMS909: and had not been killed in those years, therefore somewhat a survivor

OHostZim: Reason he's acting centurio is because the centurio they started this campaign prob didn't make it recently. He's actually in his prime ... and a prime example of his sort.

OHostZim: "Sumus Victrix, Caveat Victrix ... Sumus optimi sunt!"

OHostZim: "Victrix" is the name of his Legion.

Lucylou98:What does that mean?

OHostZim: We are the 'Victrix.' Beware the 'Victrix". ... We are the best there is!

OHostZim: They chanted that coming at you, Lucy, with their spears ready to throw.

GCEMS909: a roman banzai

Lucylou98:holy cow..pretty intimidating

OHostZim: ... scary folks ...

GCEMS909: thus, iunio reacted to the "court" by throwing his spear

OHostZim: And if they'd brought the rest of the 6,000 with him, they'd have all thrown their spears.

GCEMS909: did the earth not get rotated because kip requested to be returned?

OHostZim: Perhaps, Stover thinks that showed something to the assembly ... wanting to return.

OHostZim: But what ... ?

GCEMS909: species loyalty?

OHostZim: A certain nobility of character ...

OHostZim: but why would that make what the species was going to develop into less dangerous?

GCEMS909: and remember that this was not a court of justice

OHostZim: It obviously appealed to one of the jury ... the monkey ... what does he say?

GCEMS909: basically, when young his race was unruly, and now have become civilized (as he does the back flip)

OHostZim: And what does the Mother Thing say ... ?

OHostZim: The same illogic? Simply, they're young, give them a chance ... isn't it?

GCEMS909: that's the line

OHostZim: (Perfectly proper for a juvenile novel ... isn't it?)

BPRAL22169:Some of the same thinking the Martians are anticipated to take in Stranger, isn't it?

GCEMS909: but, as you just said, how does that not make us dangerous?

OHostZim: Doesn't

GCEMS909: then why allow earth to continue to exist?

OHostZim: Short term pessimistic, long-term optimistic?

OHostZim: " ... If This Goes On."

OHostZim: Maybe the jury is RAH ...

Lucylou98:Do thy think humans can improve?

Lucylou98:or are we just hopeless?

OHostZim: Maybe the jury is RAH ...

GCEMS909: they even supply us with hints, sent to the professors who gather at Princeton

OHostZim: HSS-WT, subtitled "I, the Jury" ... is my point [g].

OHostZim: The contrast of art with all the massacres ... that Kip relates.

Doc4Kidz: (the judge with the anchor on his robes?)

OHostZim: LOL!

Doc4Kidz: like the commodore in "Moonbase"?

OHostZim: yes

OHostZim: What we're talking about is one character in Project Moonbase, the 'movie' who looks a lot like RAH, who is not identified in the credits.

PhillipOwe:Greetings, all.

OHostZim: Hi, Phil ...

GCEMS909: greetings phillip

Dehede011:Was RAH supposed to be in Destination Moon or Moonbase.

Doc4Kidz: and wears an anchor design on the sleeve of his uniform

OHostZim: Our guess is that's him ... we could be wrong, but sure looks like him.

Doc4Kidz: has anyone asked Mrs. H about it?

OHostZim: Project Moonbase. I haven't asked her ... perhaps I should one day.

Lylanthwol:Evening Heinleiners

Lucylou98:Hi, Lylanthwol

Lylanthwol:Hi Lucy

OHostZim: Evenin' Lyl

Lylanthwol:Hi David

BPRAL22169:The subject did come up in conversation one day; she says RAH did not make a cameo.

OHostZim: We're talking about the end of HSS-WT about what the reason was supposed to be to spare the planet and species.

OHostZim: But that character sure looks like his photos ... and he doesn't sound like a senior naval officers.

Lylanthwol:thanks David

OHostZim: does!

Lucylou98:John, I thought you were GCEMS...

Lylanthwol:lol.. no Lisa... tis I

GCEMS909: David, et al. I need to go, have to drive to Atlanta first thing in morning. yes lucy john

GCEMS909: is gcems909

OHostZim: Okay, thanks for a great cohost, John.

Lucylou98:bye GC

OHostZim: Who wants to pick up the ball on HSS-WT?

Lylanthwol:lol... ok.. his name is John too DUH

OHostZim: Questions ... statements, arguments ... go over something we've already covered if you wish

OHostZim: Got a full hour to go ...

Lucylou98:John, my mind is not very good tonight...

Doc4Kidz: (I hate that!)

Doc4Kidz: anyone answer my question while I was gone?

OHostZim: I do too ...

Lylanthwol:that's ok.. mine isn't either... trying to remember Kips specific argument... brain is a gelatinous standing wave.

Lucylou98:guess no one wants to work some Trig equations huh?

OHostZim: Bill said Ginny said RAH did not make a cameo in Project Moonbase... Doc.

Doc4Kidz: thanks

Dehede011:How about in Destination Moon?

PhillipOwe:Didn't RAH make a cameo in Destination Moon?

Dehede011:I have always heard so but I have looked carefully and can't spot him

Lylanthwol:well folks... wish I had more time than to merely make a cameo myself.. HSS-WT is one of my fav's.... I'll have to do some rambling on your boards

PhillipOwe:He's in the audience when they do the presentation.

OHostZim: Please do Lyl

Dehede011:In the beginning of the movie?

Lucylou98:I'm off to surf

Lucylou98:good to see everyone

Lucylou98:bye

OHostZim: Nite Luc

Lylanthwol:will do.. nite David... will catch up with you more soon...

Dehede011:BRB

Lylanthwol:we're doing Ringworld soon.. hope you'll join us

Lylanthwol:my apologies for the shameless plug! :)

OHostZim: Niven's always fun, perhaps some of us will.

PhillipOwe:I'm asking Ginny. My copy seems to show him.

Lylanthwol:sounds good to me... {S ttfn

OHostZim: Just chickens here who also post on AFH ... I can edit this log before it posts.

OHostZim: By 'edit' I mean take any reply out ...

OHostZim: The question of new topics might be discussed a little in the time we have ...

Nzgrrrl: hiya

OHostZim: We're developing them, slowly but surely on the posts ... but we might need a stop-gap

OHostZim: Hi, Nzg ...

OHostZim: topic for a meeting or two ...

PhillipOwe:Ginny says No re Destination Moon. Guild rules wouldn't allow it.

OHostZim: to allow Oz to conduct a vote.

OHostZim: Ah ... I see ...

OHostZim: Any suggestions???

OHostZim: Stop gap topic for next meeting?

Dehede011:Gulf?

Doc4Kidz: how about a "Puddin" break?

OHostZim: How 'bout Poddy and Puddin?

PhillipOwe:Lost Legacy? RAH's metaphysical works get short shrift.

OHostZim: Doc, how'd you like to cohost Poddy and Puddin? [g]

Doc4Kidz: I think Poddy deserves a "Room of her Own" (i.e an entire meeting)

OHostZim: Okay, then just Poddy, the semi-juvenile ...

Doc4Kidz: I'd have to check my schedule, but I agree in principle -- the story or the heroine?

OHostZim: Okay ... then we'll go with Poddy and you, schedule permitting, and you do what you think we should cover.

Doc4Kidz: I'll let you know soonest

OHostZim: Otherwise, we'll fake Poddy ... and try to do as well as you would have done.

Doc4Kidz: (was that a BATHroom of her own?)

OHostZim: No! And stop teasing me ...

OHostZim: About Lost Legacy, Phil? How about a metaphysical theme in a couple of months.

OHostZim: Is LL in Assignment in Eternity, due out in May?

PhillipOwe:Okay

OHostZim: Okay ... would you be kind enough to nominate it on the suggested topics post?

OHostZim: And we can note that AiE is due to be released in May, I think ... so it'll be available that month.

OHostZim: Following the thread I'm about to put on screen or on AFH, doesn't matter which ...

OHostZim: Schedule for future topics (Keyword to: aol://5863:126/mB:186809:2026)

OHostZim: And Doc has mentioned it would be helpful to find a new slant on Poddy so if anyone has suggestions that might help him ... please let him know.

Doc4Kidz: like for example how to stay on AOL long enough to lead!

OHostZim: We did some on Poddy a few months back ... last fall or late last summer ....

OHostZim: Anyone else have anything they'd like to discuss now ... ?

OHostZim: ::::::waving::::::

OHostZim: Hi, Laurie ...

Lauriel210:Hi everyone

PhillipOwe:Hi, Laurie

OHostZim: we're finishing up a meeting on Robert Heinlein's novel Have Space Suit---Will Travel.

OHostZim: And all about talked out ...

Lauriel210:Oops, sorry, stumbled into the wrong room. Catch you later

BPRAL22169:My brain tends to fry after the 2nd hour.

PhillipOwe:Homer:"Fried brains, ummmh!"

OHostZim: Mine is just getting started ... bet Homer didn't read any RAH juveniles ...

BPRAL22169:Hmmm. Pass.

OHostZim: but Lisa would.

PhillipOwe:See, I started a new line of chat.

OHostZim: Matter of fact, RAH juveniles are just what Bart needs!

OHostZim: Which juvenile would you recommend to Bart?

PhillipOwe:Lisa is more the PeeWee type.

OHostZim: Bart would want the most gadgetty story to attract his interest ...

OHostZim: Judge it a tie between HSS-WT and Red Planet I think ...

OHostZim: Martians would be 'cool' and the ending would appeal to him, I think. He just 'dissappeard' him, wow!

OHostZim: And I think Willis would intrigue Bart ... use Willis to get into Skinner's files.

PhillipOwe:Folks, goodnight. Sorry. Thanks for letting me hang.

OHostZim: That's a question I get a lot of ... which juvenile should I have my kid read .... ?

OHostZim: Sure Phillip ...

OHostZim: I usually go with Red Planet ...

OHostZim: think it's the most interesting to one who hasn't read Heinlein before and the least out-dated.

OHostZim: Maybe that's a topic we might cover?

OHostZim: Which juvenile would you recommend to an eight year old?

OHostZim: Or a 14-year old with an eight year olds reading development ...

OHostZim: who doesn't read.

OHostZim: So far ....

Doc4Kidz: Maybe one meeting we should all come prepared to defend OUR choice as favorite RAH

OHostZim: We could ... might make a lot of premeeting posts.

OHostZim: Twenty minutes left ... anyone want to talk about anything ... ?

OHostZim: Last call ....

Doc4Kidz: did anyone come up with a new Poddy angle while I was rebooting

BPRAL22169:Just as a continuation of the talk about the juveniles.

BPRAL22169:I would say RAH wrote it to give Putnam's the juvenile they hoped they would get -- A kind of thank you for publishing Stranger.

OHostZim: Okay. Next meeting's in two weeks. Same time, same place, Podkayne of Mars, Barry cohost, schedule permitting.

Doc4Kidz: right-o

Lucylou98:ok came for title of next book..thanx

Doc4Kidz: great timing

OHostZim: Otherwise we'll fake it ...

OHostZim: Thanks all for coming ...

OHostZim: see you on the boards.

Dehede011:Night all.

OHostZim: Nite Ron.

Doc4Kidz: goodnight

OHostZim: Closing log ... February 17, 2000, 8:54:23 PM, PST

BPRAL22169:ok -- time for me to go and get clothes out of the laundry. Thanks again.

Astyanax12:Good night and thank you. I enjoyed it.

BPRAL22169:night.

LOG CLOSED

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