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Heinlein Readers Discussion

Citizen of the Galaxy

February 2, 2000

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Here begin the AFH Postings


Subject: Reminder--Febr 3d mtng--Citizen of the Galaxy

Date: 1/26/00 12:57 PM Pacific Standard Time

From:AGplusone

The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group

Notice of Next Meeting Thursday, February 3, 2000, from 9 PM to midnight, in The BC Salon III, on AOL, and Saturday, February 5, 2000, from 8 to 10 PM, ET, on the Internet in an AIM chatroom.

Topic: Heinlein's last 'real' juvenile Readings: Heinlein's 'juvenile' novel Citizen of the Galaxy ('55) and anything else the co-host may suggest.

Now that the medical officer (also known as 'she who must be obeyed' or my spousal overlord unit) and Zim have cleared me to resume the schedule, we'll be doing just a little juggling to accommodate everyone's schedule. The chat cohost for next meeting is SageMerlin, and he'll be making his lead-off post shortly, in this thread as a reply. In the interim, Alan (SageMerlin) published an essay on Citizen of the Galaxy on our old website still maintained by CeilMary that I commend to your reading: see, ---] click here: Citizen of the Galaxy. Alan, or I as soon as the first of us finds time, will probably copy and repost it on this message board; but meanwhile, for those who find time, it may be read there as well.

There's a lot to say about Citizen of the Galaxy in addition to Sage's essay. Zim hopes we see a lot of that said in our pre-meeting posts. Any other thoughts on this novel are especially welcome. Remember, whether you attend the chat or not, we encourage you to post your thoughts for they certainly will be helpful to all of us; and please also remember to contact me at AGplusone@aol.com or agplusone@loop.com if you need information on how to attend either the Thursday chat on AOL or the Saturday chats on AIM. I hope to see you all in one or both chats a week from tomorrow.

Regards,

David

--

AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: Reminder--Febr 3d mtng--Citizen of the Galaxy

Date: 1/26/00 8:02 PM Pacific Standard Time

From:BPRAL22169

....Topic: Heinlein's last 'real' juvenile Er . . . not to creeb and grotch too much, but doesn't Have Space Suit -- Will Travel (1957) count? I cannot say (yet again) "that's [Citizen] one of my favorite Heinlein books" -- though it is; but it is one I find most personally meaningful. Maybe I resonated with it because I didn't seem to fit in to any of my environments either, though I am well socialized and can move in many environments. There are times when even "the kindness of strangers" isn't enough. And let's not even talk about family!

W (Bill Patterson)

Subject: Re: Reminder--Febr 3d mtng--Citizen of the Galaxy

Date: 2/1/00 3:11 PM Pacific Standard Time

From:AGplusone

Some thoughts by SageMerlin, who appeared to be trapped in the spinning beach ball today whilst trying to post them here. Instead, he posted them on AFH where several dialogues on Citizen of the Galaxy have been playing out.

Subject: CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY

From:sagemerlin@aol.com (SageMerlin)

Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2000 8:53 AM

I'm nonplussed. All these different pointers, I don't know which way to go....and to make matters worse, the durned (whoops, can't say that either) AOL bulletin board coughed and ate my last attempt at this. Let's see now. David has conned me into hosting a session again, which means that I have to expose my tender ego to the onslaughts of these Heinlein savants. I mean, I have to keep asking what these durned abbreviations mean. (What else do you think IMs are for?)

Okay, I'm vented. Here we go:

If this is the right place to start this thread (David, next time send me ONE pointer so I don't have to figure out which one I am supposed to use, if there is a next time), let me ask this question:

What happens next?

Many of Heinlein's books (and especially his juveniles) appear to end somewhere before the story is really over. (Which is not to say that the adult books don't have the same feeling, but it seems to a lesser extent.)

So, what happens next after COTG ends? (Actually, I am cheating a little. I know what happens next because - for my own amusement, folks [don't scream copyright violation at me; I am a sensitive type], not for distribution - I am writing a sequel to COTG. Same characters, a couple of years after the first story ends.

Since I firmly believe that Heinlein was always involved in teaching (as well as writing fun stuff and making good money at it) the next question for your consideration is: do we see similar trends today, in the contemporary world, to the cultures that Heinlein creates in COTG? Are the indentured servants in our high tech internet start-ups with their 20 hour days and their huge salaries any different from the vagabond traders? Are the traders any more free (or less enslaved if you prefer) that Sargon's impressed labor?

And getting back to Baslim himself, is Baslim Robert Heinlein in mufti? Or is he hiding behind the guise of lawyer James J. Garsh (take a bow, Jim)?Finally, having already expounded on COTG as a teaching story (drawing allusions for crying out loud with Robert Bly's Iron John, can we draw distinctions amongst other Heinlein characters who perform archetypal functions?

(I can hear David harumping that I've just proposed three new subjects for future meetings. All right, I'll host the one on archetypes. Are you happy now?)

(((Some of you may have noticed that I am almost never online any more. On the contrary, I have a DSL line now, so I am always online, just not here. One goes where the money goes.)))

Now, remember this is just to get the ball rolling. I will check in a couple of days hence (on Wednesday) to see who has picked it up and which way they have run with it.

Alan

The discussion on alt.fan.heinlein to which Dave alludes is reproduced in full, below, after the AOL message board posts

Subject: Re: Reminder--Febr 3d mtng--Citizen of the Galaxy

Date: 2/3/00 3:09 AM Pacific Standard Time

From:AGplusone

Maybe some of what follows was caused to spring forth from all three posts thus far:

Just a little note on one point.

Part of the attractiveness of Citizen of the Galaxy to me is something obvious it has in common with one other juvenile, Starman Jones, besides being possibly inspired by a classic [Citizen by Kipling's Kim, Jones by Twain's Life on the Mississippi], both postulate new societies in a manner different than other juveniles and most of the adult novels and stories up to then written by Heinlein--their impact on the human characters.

There's a great change from today's or the commonly accepted 1950s attitude of a typical United States citizen in the attitude of characters in Starman Jones, commented upon in criticism of Max Jones' seeming lack of assertiveness in past posts (here and on AFH), for the society has reverted to a form of medievalism--a sense that every human is locked into a particular place by society's laws and guild rules. E.g., Max must always be a farmer because his farmland may not be taken out of production, and, therefore, is entailed. Some professions are unreachable no matter how qualified a person may be. People are all locked in to what they presently are, unless they break rules as does the deserter Sam Richards or Roberts (we never found which real name he bore).

In Citizen, originally named "The Chains and the Stars," there is the same sense of repression of humans through the opening slave-dominated society, the so-called free traders, and the sort of military police (who could easily have been called the Patrol of earlier juvenile novels--Well's Samurai class again) on to the world of extreme wealth in which Thor Rudbeck ends the novel. Except for the final world of wealth, there are clear parallels in the progress of Max Jones and Thorby Baslim, from slave and serf respectively to and through a rigidly controlled status as spaceman (two varieties for Thorby, neither of which real suit him) onto what seems to be a satisfactory achievement for Max but further challenges and chains of slf-accepted duty for Thor.

We don't have much idea what challenges Max will face in young manhood; but for Thor the result seems pretty well blocked out, he's a man with a mission.

Here, I'd set that aside for the time, to comment on how much like the later two adult novels Job: A Comedy of Justice and Friday, Citizen is. There is a diversity of societies drawn in each novel, four major ones in Citizen, a large number that Alec and Margrethe pass through in Job, and an equally large number displayed to Marjorie Baldwin both on and off planet in Friday. I won't list all of them, but in each the attraction I find is the differing effect on its human inhabitants Heinlein postulates differences between them: from the overwhelmingly universal prejudice against all others the crew of the Sisu harbors, to repression of the age at which citizenship is achieved in one off-world in Friday, to can-do, and by God we did it! world of Jerry Farnsworth.

These are all "What If?" worlds. The offhand rendering of their speculative effects are a major reason that keeps me returning to reading Heinlein, again, and again.

David

--

AGPlusOne

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: Reminder--Febr 3d mtng--Citizen of the Galaxy

Date: 2/3/00 1:21 PM Pacific Standard Time

From:SageMerlin

Okay, here I am doing my duty.

Where are you all? Okay, maybe the mine has played out on this tale. After all, it was a juvenile and most of us aren't any more. Of course, its odd that when I went grubbing about to find my Citizen (in the midst of a renovation and living out of boxes) I had just about everything RAH ever wrote except Citizen.....

Hmmm.

Well, moving right along. I will be by a little after nine and if you are all very diligent and we get done before midnight, hot damn that would be good.

Sorry, but David, I am attached to my damnations.

Can't think of a thing else to say except if anyone has a copy of the serialized adult version of Citizen I would dearly love to read it.

Later

A FIVE MESSAGE DISCUSSION FROM ALT.FAN.HEINLEIN

Subject: Re: CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY

From:sagemerlin@aol.com (SageMerlin)

Date: 2/1/00 9:18 AM Pacific Standard Time

No I am not suffering from a split personality, today [Alan's first post corresponds to his lead-off in the AOL Messages] but I do have to reply to myself because I just read part of Jane Davitt's essay on Kipling's Kim and Citizen of the Galaxy that I saw in draft form (thank you, David) and I am moved to dismiss everything I wrote in my first post and go on to this question:

What do you think about Ms. Davitt's premise?

I find it very difficult to see Heinlein pouring over Kipling's novel and recreating it in a future context as COTG. Just doesn't seem seemly. I am wondering if there is any external evidence (from Ginny, for example) as to whether or not this was the case. (I am not impugning Ms. Davitt's scholarship; I was impressed by her essay. I just want to know if there is any external evidence to support her contentions.)

Okay, it is a little far-fetched to believe that such similarities can be accidental in origin, but there are other differences, differences that suggest a continuity with Heinlein's other work.

I have previously mentioned that COTG reads like an early version of SIASL without the mystical (spiritual? esoteric? Ironic???) content. We have also had extensive and frivolous discussions about Heinlein's possible connections with certain mystical movements. (Masons, Sufis, and maybe even the Sons of Liberty come to mind.) Does anyone else see that?

The most significant difference between Kim and COTG is that Thor is wealthy, as wealthy as it is possible to be, when he comes into his own identity. Here, COTG reminds me of Stranger because there again Smith wakes up to vast wealth.

In both cases, however, gaining access to that wealth and to the power it represents requires an extreme expenditure of effort.

Both novels must owe something to H.G, Wells' When The Sleeper Wakes, and the theme is revisited again in Door Into Summer, and in several other places. The power of compound interest, remember?

Heinlein clearly has a certain affection for Islam, and for Mormons, who bear an occasional similarity to each other.

Reading COTG, one realizes a contrasting opinion of the Hindu faith and its caste system. Both Kipling and Heinlein see the flaws in the caste system, but on the whole, wouldn't you say that Kipling is a whole lot more sympathetic to the Hindu faith than Heinlein?

Okay, as you were. Go back to what you were doing before.

See you Thorsday, Insha'llah!

(anyone caught throwing rotten tomatoes will be expelled.)

Subject: Re: CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY

From:ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/1/00 1:20 PM Pacific Standard Time

Well, I think your [SageMerlin's] other post had some interesting points. There is a current thread about the status of the Free Traders, under "RAH-RG next AIM meeting Feb 5 Citizen of the Galaxy". I am arguing that Margaret is a bit harsh in her judgement of them as slaves. I certainly think that there is a difference between the "real" slavery that Thorby experienced at the start of the book and the lifestyle of the Traders. However Heinlein seems to view both as being detrimental to liberty. We know/are told through Baslim that slavery is bad; the Traders are labelled slaves. Make your own deductions about how Heinlein intended us to see them. Of course, Baslim trusted his son to them but only until Thorby could be passed on to the Guard. He took a risk but his options were limited.

I am not sure that The Sleeper Awakes is that relevant; Mike is away for about 20 years, Thorby, 13 years or so; not really all that long in monetary terms. Thorby in particular comes from inherited wealth and it takes a lot of effort for that to disappear I believe; just keeps on snowballing as Johann discovers in IWFNE.

I agree that there is a definite mystic element in COTG, with Thorby hearing the voice of Baslim; I link that to the spiritual element of the Lama in Kim though :-)

I do know that several people on the ng said they too were reminded of Kim when they thought of COTG. I have absolutely no evidence that Heinlein had Kim in mind when he wrote COTG so it is purely my thoughts on the subject: backed up by a comparison of the two texts but still speculation.

I had not read Kim before, I think I started it as a child and got hopelessly lost. When I read it as part of my research the matches between it and COTG seemed so glaringly obvious that I was surprised no one had commented in any of the books on Heinlein that I had read. Of course, to notice it you have to have read Kim as well as COTG, which a lot of people might not have done.

I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with using Kim as an inspiration btw; you said you had read part of my article; at the end I point out how every author owes something to other writers. It certainly isn't plagiarism. More of a homage.

Jane ( not Ms Davitt, don't think I've ever been called that! :-) )

Subject: Re: CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY

From:sagemerlin@aol.com (SageMerlin)

Date: 2/1/00 3:18 PM Pacific Standard Time

Get used to it. The honorific, I mean. We are polite around here, unless David is out for blood, as he sometimes is.

I demur to the point where I see Sleeper as being a definite precursor because of the sleeper's impact on the society to which he returns. I vaguely recall other Heinlein outings that also bear on this theme. Subject for another session, David?

In terms of the monetary engines involved, it is the amount of money that falls into the protagonist's hands, now how it was generated, that occasions the parallel.

Insofar as hearing voices is concerned (having once malpracticed therapy), I thought that was psychotic, not mystical. I have been a mystic (laughing up my sleeve, but its true) all my life and I have never once heard voices. Okay, once. But it was long, long ago, and far, far away.

I only read part of the essay, JANE, because David only sent me part of it. I would be happy to read the rest if you would be kind enough to send it.

Another thought recurs to me (from the posting that AOL ate): Does anyone have the version of Citizen that was serialized in Astounding (or was it Amazing?), the so called adult version.

I would give my eye teeth to read that one, if I still had my eye teeth.

Nobody's prefect, any more.

I am logging off now to go to Borders and scarf up a copy of Kim. Good thing they are open until 11 around here.

BTW, I would be ever so grateful if you all would send your comments to me via email when you post them here because I am in the throes of a major revision of a really huge website and frankly I don't have the patience to duck in and out of AOL that often any more. Age thing, I guess.

In the breeze gang.

Subject: Re: CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY

From:ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 2/1/00 4:14 PM Pacific Standard Time

Nicknames seem to be the accepted thing on the AOL Heinlein chat logs that I've seen and this particular "around here" is afh; I'm Jane. I do not and have never used "Ms" and the formality seems a bit out of place on a ng.

Moving on, the article has just appeared in the January article of The Heinlein Journal; ask Bill Patterson if you can have a copy of the article, I don't want to break any rules about passing it around. If there are any. I'm a bit of a novice about this. David probably sent you just the part about COTG. If Bill says it's OK, I'll send it, no problem.

The characters hearing voices is a recurrent theme in Heinlein; Jake and Jane, Johann and Eunice ( possibly), even the conversations Kip has with Oscar and Dan with Pete could qualify. Not sure I'd class all or any as psychotic but I have never had that particular experience so I can't comment.

I really don't see the money bit as being significant in a link between SIASL and COTG. It's true they are both rich but Thorby is far more handicapped by it than Mike. There are a fair few rich people in Heinlein books after all. I agree that the eponymous hero of Kim is not rich and is not likely to be rich but I don't think it has much of a bearing on whether Kim = COTG. I never said it was an exact match! Thorby has to have the money to be able to tackle the slavery problem from its point of origin ( in a way). Kim doesn't need money to operate successfully as a spy; in fact it would be a handicap.

Hope you manage to get hold of Kim; I got mine from the bargain section of Chapters. Very good bargain indeed. Are you hosting the Saturday chat too?

Jane

[The alt.fan.heinlein thread about the Traders in Citizen of the Galaxy is a little too diffuse to edit for this purpose.]

Go to Beginning of Postings

Chat Log (most of it)

February 3, 2000

[Apologies for the low quality of the editing this time, but I am short on working time today - ed.]

6:04 p.m.

Major oz: so, Bill.........what is the URL for your home page ?

TAWN3: Hello all.

OHostZim: We're chit chatting. Sage will be a little late. Hi, Tawn. Meet Oz and GHMyst (Ed)

Major oz: g'day

BPRAL22169:Actually -- I've forgotten it. It was a one-shot for #5, which is now obsolete, and

GHMyst: Hey Bill just talking about you

BPRAL22169:I haven't put a new one up yet.

TAWN3: Hi Oz, Know your posts on the RELM boards.

BPRAL22169:Yo.

TAWN3: Hi Ed.

Major oz: ......busted........

GHMyst: Hello tawn

OHostZim: Let him have THJ's mailing address, please, Here or by IM, Bill.

BPRAL22169:Here ok?

Major oz: "him" is me

Major oz: ok

BPRAL22169:The Heinlein Journal, 602 W. Bennett Avenue, Glendora, CA 91741

OHostZim: I think Astyanax knows (sure, Bill) everyone except Oz. Oz is long-time asst group leader

OHostZim: Been sick, Astyanax, and now fully recovered.

BPRAL22169:That's a "permanent" address for the Journal; if you need to reach me at my residence, IM and I'll pass the address along.

OHostZim: Evenin' Sage, welcome!

SageMerlin:thanks

OHostZim: We'll start as soon as you're ready.

SageMerlin:traffic was horrible between first and second floors.

OHostZim: Anyone have any announcements before we start?

Major oz: Sage, is you one of the financial AOL types?

OHostZim: At my age I go up that floor very easily and slowly.

SageMerlin:who me? not really.

SageMerlin:I is just a wanderer on the face of reality

Major oz: Announcement:read the message re:scheduling

OHostZim: Schedule for future topics (Keyword to: aol://5863:126/mB:186809:2026)

OHostZim: Please:it's the most important post we've had in a good while.

OHostZim: Group. Tonight we discuss one of RAH's

OHostZim: "last" juvenile novels:Citizen of the Galaxy.

OHostZim: :::

OHostZim: SageMerlin will be our chat cohost.

OHostZim: Any questions before we begin?

SageMerlin:Okay folks, its been a long time for so be patient as I get back into the stream of things

GHMyst: Lead on....

Major oz: ...we are supportive :)

OHostZim: [one of the last, Bill ... :) ... ]

BPRAL22169:"And curs'd be him that cries 'hold,' 'enough'!"

SageMerlin:Looking around the room I see a couple of faces that are new to me.

DenvToday: Greetings all.

OHostZim: Hey everyone

SageMerlin:Greetings

BPRAL22169:Antepenultimate, I think.

SageMerlin:Bill you are really going to have to explain that one to me

GHMyst: being very sesquipedalian aren't we????

SageMerlin:I am slowing down with age myself.

DenvToday: I thought you were getting younger with age.

SageMerlin:Not to mention antideluvian

BPRAL22169:ultimate = last; penultimate = next to last; antepenultimate is before the next

to last.

SageMerlin:But of and for what?

BPRAL22169:Can you get antediluvian with age? My, the things one learns...

Major oz: ...time to don my ompthaloskepsis shield......

OHostZim: (fancy way of saying second from the last?)

BPRAL22169:Oh, sorry -- that was addressed to Dave about CoTG being "one of the last" juveniles.

OHostZim: The one that covers your belly button? Haven't seen it in a while.

Major oz: ...protects me from navel-gazers.....

TAWN3: Unless you count ST.

TAWN3: Then it's two.

TAWN3: Also, what about Podkayne?

SageMerlin:Okay folks gets get a grip

GHMyst: On what????

Major oz: [ why do I feel like I am in the House of Commons ?.]

SageMerlin:Uh oh, my boss just found me.

BPRAL22169:Is Tony Major coming too?

OHostZim: (and allows you to hoard your belly-button lint) {Grip firmly holding)

SageMerlin:He's pissed that I am not at work

SageMerlin:Damn, I am always hiding out from someone

BPRAL22169:Tell him this IS work.

Major oz: Go sage -- we is interested in hearing your opening statement(s)

SageMerlin:My opening statement....was I supposed to have one?

GHMyst: Fake it

SageMerlin:You all know how fond I am of this book

SageMerlin:And its a good thing too because I can't find it anywhere again

Major oz: I would have said:soliquily == solliquilly -- whatever.....if I could spell it.

GHMyst: got mine right here

SageMerlin:Major, its nice to see you such fine fettle

DenvToday: soliliquy, I think.

SageMerlin:Always knew you had the mettle

Major oz: I know:" I " " T "

SageMerlin:But here we come to the crux of the matter

SageMerlin:Why in the world are these major works called juveniles.

SageMerlin:I mean really and truly, the themes covered in these so called juvenile novels

Major oz: At the time, they were.

SageMerlin:often put more serious adult books to shame.

Major oz: today, they are major works

DenvToday: They were aimed toward the juvenile market.

SageMerlin:At the time they were first published, all science fiction was considered juvenile

Major oz: What is the reading ability of 12 yr olds in the 50's vs. today ??

TAWN3: CotG seems adult to me!

SageMerlin:or are some of you too youjng to rememver that?

DenvToday: I'm sure more advanced than your average high school senior.

BPRAL22169:I think CoTG was not specifically written as a juvenile -- I ran across a comment

SageMerlin:When I was 12 years old I was reading at 16+

BPRAL22169:in a letter to Blassingame

TAWN3: Because they were written as Juvies with the juvie market in mind.

BPRAL22169:RAH didn't know quite what it was.

Major oz: The heros were kids

TAWN3: Not all SF was Juvie.

SageMerlin:And I maintain that at the time all science fiction was considered juvenile

SageMerlin:Okay, tawn, you have the floor

Major oz: Few "adult" novels had kids as the central protagonist.

SageMerlin:define and defend your thesis

GHMyst: You think he aimed a bit high??

BPRAL22169:PPOR? Gak, not here, too!

SageMerlin:I see: Lord of the Flies

SageMerlin:Catcher in the Rye

SageMerlin:Captains Courageous

SageMerlin:Oliver Twist

TAWN3: RAH said it was an adult book with no sex so he could sell it as a juvie. Also, he was

Major oz: HGW was considered an acceptable SF (such as it was) author

DenvToday: What about The Prince and the Pauper? Huckleberry Finn? Tom Sawyer?

TAWN3: starting to want to make a bigger name for himself in the adult market.

SageMerlin:HG Wells was a literary giant

Major oz: Yes, Sage, those are -- but they were aimed at kids.

SageMerlin:I was just going to those novels.

Major oz: Maybe not CC

OHostZim: There's a part in Citizen which made me wonder then ... when Baslim does the memory hypnosis

BPRAL22169:You're also talking about 50 years of literary history when Things Changed -- A LOT

SageMerlin:No I diagree. Many books have children as protagonists but are quite clearly adult in nature

OHostZim: ... and hears things that make him pale. Wondered how he slipped that one by Alice?

SageMerlin:Yes, but you all asked for an opening statement and this is it

BPRAL22169:SF didn't exist when Captains Courageous was written.

Major oz: But not on average

BPRAL22169:As a distinct genre, I mean.

Major oz: ...even though "many" do......

SageMerlin:No, my point Bill is that because Children are the characters doesn't make them juvenile.

BPRAL22169:I don't dispute that.

SageMerlin:And Jules Verne would disagree

TAWN3: Define child vs adult

DenvToday: I agree. It's the market they were designed for.

SageMerlin:I can't. my son is older than I am

BPRAL22169:The way Heinlein did it, his "juveniles" were bildungromaener

TAWN3: At what point is one a "man"?

Major oz: True -- doesn't "make" them juvies, but the odds favor it.

GHMyst: translate please

BPRAL22169:But that was unique to him, not a characteristic of the juvenile or "cadet" market.

BPRAL22169:novels of (character or personality) building.

SageMerlin:RAH wrote repeatedly about the rite de passage period in adolescent life

GHMyst: thank you

SageMerlin:When the child becomes a man

SageMerlin:And he wrote to describe HOW the child becomes a man or a woman

TAWN3: Lots of his "juvie" characters are college age, so, legal adults. Example, SP, BP, etc.

BPRAL22169:Apparently there was some ambiguity in his juvenile editor's mind about the age she wanted

Major oz: And it was true not only of RAH, but, with VERY few exceptions, the kid was a male....

BPRAL22169:his protagonists to be.

OHostZim: Hard to think of any except Little Women and the Bronte novels that were female.

Major oz: What was that witch's name......I forget.

Major oz: ...the editor.....

BPRAL22169:Yes. A few years later Andre Norton started writing juveniles ... with male protagonists.

DenvToday: He was also writing for Boy's Life at the time. And few girls read sci fi at the time.

OHostZim: Alice Dalgliesh? (spelling?)

BPRAL22169:Alice Dalgliesh?

SageMerlin:Hold it. I think I am being ignored here.

Major oz: nee Grundy ?

SageMerlin:I am calling into question the entire idea that there was anything but

Major oz: No Sage -- you have the floor.

SageMerlin:juveniles at the time these science ficton books were being published.

SageMerlin:Name for me three science fiction books contemporaneous with COTG that were adult science fiction

OHostZim: probably had a nose the size of a banana

TAWN3: Fans are Slans!

Major oz: Are you saying that "literary" society considered all SF to be (in a pejorative....

Major oz: ...sense) to be juvenile

TAWN3: Null-A

Major oz: ?

BPRAL22169:Your'e kidding? 1956? Alfred Bester: The Stars My Destination

SageMerlin:Not just literary society

BPRAL22169:Null A was in the 40's

SageMerlin:No sale. Re-read it recently.

TAWN3: Bester, yes, and Piper.

OHostZim: That was the attitude even when I was in college ... in the late 60s early 70s.

TAWN3: And many others.

BPRAL22169:You've got to remember, SF was not published in hardcovers before WWII

SageMerlin:I beg to differ. I read all of them when they came out and found none in any way beyond me.

Major oz: I take it that is a "yes" -- now off to the other facets of society...

BPRAL22169:There were too many related publishing changes going on to analyze them this way.

TAWN3: OK, so there were adult SF novels as early as the forties!

SageMerlin:Assertion is not dissertation

OHostZim: there was one course that had a Sci-Fi novel in reading list. SiaSL and it was written up

TAWN3: Actually, 48 and 50 some I believe.

OHostZim: as a notorious 'mic' course for lazy kids.

TAWN3: So, that is at the same time as RAHs's juvies.

OHostZim: In 1968, and the prof did NOT get tenure.

BPRAL22169:But there were two other universities that offered Stranger that year, and James Gunn is still around.

OHostZim: Yes, but ... it took time to change the attitude.

SageMerlin:The point that I am still trying to make is this

Major oz: UC Davis and who else?

BPRAL22169:I feel we have too many issues on the table right now -- could we get some clarity?

OHostZim: UCLA was where the notorious course was.

BPRAL22169:I can't remember whether Gunn was at Oklahoma or Kansas.

SageMerlin:I'm clear as a bell curve.

Major oz: ...tap, tap, tap....

SageMerlin:Yes, Oz

OHostZim: Sure, go ahead and aim us, Sage.

TAWN3: Instead of calling SF Juvie, perhaps it is better to say it was "Pulp Fiction" :-)

BPRAL22169:(Where's my e-meter?")

Major oz: Just tapping the glass to let you back in the driver seat.

SageMerlin:I yield to Oz

TAWN3: LOL

BPRAL22169:Oz, may I?

Major oz: ...just acting as XO -- not asking for the floor!!!

SageMerlin:The theme that I want to pursue tonight is actually about the nature of

TAWN3: Major = XO, yes, correct, sometimes.

SageMerlin:the juvenile novel and what RAH wanted to achieve in terms of their long-term impact

BPRAL22169:His "propaganda purposes."

SageMerlin:And since having read them when they came out I am here to testify as to their effect

TAWN3: Oh OH

SageMerlin:NO not the propaganda purpose.

DenvToday: Sage, I doubt he thought about long-term impact at the time. He was earning a living.

Major oz: Well.....there is the "stated" purpose and the deeper one.

GHMyst: Is there anything in GRUMBLES that will help?

Major oz: Stated:pay off the mortgage

SageMerlin:How you choose to pay off your mortgage is what counts

OHostZim: Do we have a hint originally with the first few novels? Space?

Major oz: Deeper:get kids on the "right" track

BPRAL22169:He speaks in Grumbles of having a "propaganda puirpose" (or perhaps purposes) at the time he sold RSG to Scribners in 47

TAWN3: Ahh, but he addresses Annapolis, NASA, and other socities, so he clearly had a purpose!

BPRAL22169:I took that to indicate a "long term" goal for the series.

DenvToday: Major, sure. His moral code was rock solid, and he believed in passing it on to the next...

TAWN3: Survivalism and Libertarianism for two.

DenvToday: ...generation.

SageMerlin:Smoke screens

SageMerlin:He was telling us about how he grew up

BPRAL22169:How he made himself!

SageMerlin:because people didn't have to the opportunity to grow up that way any more

OHostZim: I think a much more fundamental moral code was what he aimed at.

TAWN3: He was telling us HOW to grow up!

Major oz: says who..........

BPRAL22169:That was certainly the net result.

Major oz: ???????

SageMerlin:Look at the flow of the thoughts over the past few blurbs

DenvToday: Yep. I agree.

OHostZim: I felt he was, and I was 11 to 17 when he published those novels while I was aware of them.

SageMerlin:There is actual agreement here about something

OHostZim: ... telling me how to grow up.

SageMerlin:There is a great nostalgia for how things used to be

TAWN3: Here's an idea. Can RAH's influence be seen in the characters of

SageMerlin:In this respect we have to refer to Starman Jones

BPRAL22169:Plus validation -- very important for bright, alienated teenagers.

DenvToday: Even though he was one of the leading sf writers, his income was merely middle-class.

Major oz: ...and meta,meta: WHY we should be concerned with the HOW...

SageMerlin:Good point OZ

TAWN3: Jean Luc Picart, Worf, and Data? An interesting question. And if so, should he get the

Major oz: [ it's a Jeb thing ]

OHostZim: 'used to be' no! To me there were that way. I think a majority in the agreed, too.

TAWN3: for the long term character influence?

BPRAL22169:There was another, more superficial purpose, though -- to help kids get ready to live in the future

OHostZim: in the 50s

SageMerlin:Break

Major oz: To allow the geeks (of their time) to feel good

SageMerlin:I am thinking about the impact of three men

DenvToday: I think maybe we're probing a bit too deeply in the juvies. He was trying to write...

SageMerlin:Asimov, Clarke and Heinlein

DenvToday: ...a darn good story, give kids a few moral pointers, and earn a living.

Major oz: exactamundo, Denv

SageMerlin:Clark actually helped to create the present that now exists;

OHostZim: maybe cause them to ask a few pointed questions too ...

SageMerlin:Asimov described the coming culture better

Major oz: WELL.............

TAWN3: Must include Campbell in that group as well as Van vogt and probably L. Spague.

SageMerlin:But Heinlein showed how to live there

Major oz: Clark is vastly overrated: "....a legend in his own mind...."

SageMerlin:That is a conversation stopper

TAWN3: I agree on Clarke.

SageMerlin:Discount the 2001 hype

Major oz: ...but I'm subtle......

OHostZim: I enoyed Clark on a near par with Asimov ... I just stopped reading them in the 60s ...

OHostZim: but never stopped reading RAH

BPRAL22169:(but not malicious)

SageMerlin:And focus on the fact that Clarke helped on ground approach radar and

SageMerlin:and geostatic satelites

Major oz: Azimov was SUPER in his non-fiction, but his fiction was all the same stuff.

DenvToday: Major, I disagree. Clarke was and is incredibly inventive. Original thinking.

Major oz: I used his explain stuff in the classroom often.

DenvToday: Heinlein was a bit more traditional in his juvies. He had to be.

BPRAL22169:This is more "making the present" than airplane canopies and thinktanking antikmikaze measures?

SageMerlin:Well back to the juvenile thing

SageMerlin:Asimov really wrote juveniles

BPRAL22169:That's what RAH did -- some of it -- during the time Clarke was working on Radar -- High alt

Major oz: hear, hear

SageMerlin:Lucky Starr etc

BPRAL22169:itude suits, too.

OHostZim: But they weren't as good story tellers to me ... Asimov kept saying the same stuff.

OHostZim: Lucky Starr was simple minded. Fun, but simple minded.

SageMerlin:Point is that they were real juveniles

OHostZim: Agreed

DenvToday: One of the keys to Heinlein was that he wasn't a scientist--he was an engineer, and proud...

DenvToday: ...of it.

SageMerlin:Heinlein was doing something much more sophisicated

Major oz: In the juvies, the lead was 100 percent a good guy...no flaws

GHMyst: good point

TAWN3: Oh no. Farmer in the Sky.

Major oz: All the "adult" leads were flawed in some way...and looked at ...

TAWN3: Lots of flaws in SOME characters.

Major oz: ...the flaws as in "classic" lit.

TAWN3: BP

OHostZim: In RAH's juveniles they weren't. Lots of them had lead feet.

DenvToday: True Major, be we love them nonetheless. Despite the incest angle.

SageMerlin:Again my point

SageMerlin:The point is

OHostZim: Or were confused ... the Unheavenly Twins should have been spaced.

SageMerlin:That RAH writes about growing up

Major oz: But the juvie flaws were from ignorance, not stupidity or cupidity.

TAWN3: Perhaps he viewed youth as still innocent. That comes across in the novels often.

SageMerlin:Thank you Oz

OHostZim: True ...

DenvToday: I agree Tawn. All the kids were basically good American kids.

BPRAL22169:Of course, in the books where the story turns on the getting of wisdom, they start from a

SageMerlin:Oh really

OHostZim: I disagree.

BPRAL22169:position of relative innocence.

SageMerlin:Re-examine some of the kids in

SageMerlin:ST

Major oz: Compare your favorite juvie hero with Friday or Laz

OHostZim: Don't think Thorby is American at all.

SageMerlin:There are bad eggs in those baskets too

SageMerlin:Unless you go back to Mark Twain

OHostZim: And Max Jones is too servile.

TAWN3: Ah, but he represents the American ideal I think.

SageMerlin:Max Jones is Sgt. York

SageMerlin:The reluctant hero

TAWN3: I liked Max.

BPRAL22169:Max Jones is Andy Libby

SageMerlin:That is literally truea

OHostZim: Phil Owensby made that point ... but I think the servility is a bit stronger than that.

SageMerlin:or is that literarily

OHostZim: Deliberately so ...

BPRAL22169:I don't see Max as "servile" -- but "passive," possibly.

OHostZim: Max is really truly chained to that hill plot.

DenvToday: I must leave you all. Thanks for the discussion; I enjoyed it.

DenvToday: See you all next time.

SageMerlin:It Max Jones = Andy Libby ever explicitly stated

TAWN3: Bye.

DenvToday: Bye for now.

Major oz: Have we discovered / agreed on a theme that identifies / contrasts the juvies from the adult

TAWN3: No sex.

Major oz: ??????

SageMerlin:May I please scream rite de passage

Major oz: I mean in character / protag, etc.

TAWN3: M.V Smith has rite of passage.

SageMerlin:Its what the characters go through that defines the novel

Major oz: Yes rdp -- but if that is all there is, then there is only one novel, by many titles.

SageMerlin:the RdP is what differentiate a Heinliein juve

TAWN3: IWFNE is a rite of passage in a truly unique way!

SageMerlin:The motif is present all of his books

BPRAL22169:I'm not sure that "rite of passage" is the correct descriptor; that's a bivalued trope, with

BPRAL22169:outsider on one side of the rite and insider on the other; there are a few

BPRAL22169:of the juveniles that have that pattern, but not all of them.

SageMerlin:Again specific

Major oz: If it was simply RDP, then it would be very dull.

SageMerlin:be

OHostZim: Hi, RIP

SageMerlin:Depends on your RDP

RIPSAW25: Hello Everyone

SageMerlin:Tunnel in the Sky

TAWN3: BPRAL, good point. Almost always a mentor.

OHostZim: Talking about what distinguished Heinlein's 'juveniles' from all others up to that date.

SageMerlin:Back to the Iron John motif

Major oz: ?

SageMerlin:From the Robert Bly book

Major oz: unf

BPRAL22169:I meant, though, there are often "stages" in the protagonist's future.

OHostZim: Tell me some more about Iron John, Sage. I've never read it.

TAWN3: TitS, now that's a rite of passage!

SageMerlin:Fascinating book about how there is always an outside male figure

BPRAL22169:As in TitS

SageMerlin:who takes over from the father at a critical stage

BPRAL22169:(stop that giggling!)

SageMerlin:in a young man's development

Major oz: That is the only book I don't write the acronym for.

SageMerlin:and leads him through the rites of passage

SageMerlin:As in Baslim in COTG

TAWN3: Why, are you shy?

Major oz: Tunnel is, IMO, far better than the others.

OHostZim: "Tunnel" has been known to work well.

RIPSAW25: RAH was always big into the need for role models

SageMerlin:The young man must gain the respect of the male figure

TAWN3: Tunnel was excellent.

BPRAL22169:Could not disagree more re role models.

SageMerlin:This is very strong in the abo tribes in Australia

RIPSAW25: how so?

Major oz: Expand, Bill

BPRAL22169:H's big thing was to create yourself. His guide figures are guides, not role models.

SageMerlin:I agree with Bill. There are no role models in any RAH because the protagonist iS the role MODEL

BPRAL22169:They have been through the process.

SageMerlin:for the reader

SageMerlin:For once I am in full agreement with Bill

Major oz: OK, no role models -- but mentors?

SageMerlin:I should quit while I am ahead

OHostZim: I agree. I wanted to be Rod, Juan ... others.

BPRAL22169:I cn think of one, though -- DuBois

RIPSAW25: true, they do guide the reader, but the protagonist usually has someone to look up/answer to

SageMerlin:There are others, more covert

BPRAL22169:DuBois served "role model" function for Rico

OHostZim: Helen for example ...

Major oz: ...and Zim the mentor......

SageMerlin:Teachers are not role models

SageMerlin:A teacher is a teacher

Major oz: WHAT???????????????

SageMerlin:A role model is a peer who is alwso a good example

BPRAL22169:The term is used rather "elastically"

TAWN3: How about the career bureaucrat in Star Beast? That character really surprised me in a RAH

RIPSAW25: um, teachers ARE role models

Major oz: PEER?????????

RIPSAW25: its part of the job description

BPRAL22169:Not necessarily a peer.

SageMerlin:Never

Major oz: we seem to be revising the language

SageMerlin:Ridiculous

SageMerlin:Did you ever want to be one of your teachers?

Major oz: you bet

Major oz: and I did

SageMerlin:Which of us became a teacher because we

wanted to emulate a teacher

SageMerlin:One BPRAL22169:wait--wait; "role models" are anyone whose life is taken as example of a role,

Major oz: me

RIPSAW25: a role model is not the same as a mentor or a hero

BPRAL22169:so anyone can be or become a role model.

SageMerlin:Exactly

Major oz: go ahead, Rip -- lay them out

RIPSAW25: it is someone who shows you how you are SUPPOSED to act, even if you don't like it

TAWN3: Not so. My role models are Patrick McGoohan, Duncan McCleod, Worf, Jean Luc, Ronald Reagan

OHostZim: In a way, a role model is an older brother, an uncle, as Steve was to the second set ...or

OHostZim: twins in Time for the Stars.

Major oz: No not SUPPOSED TO ACT.

TAWN3: Reagan and the writings of RAH and Van Vogt. They are NOT my peers!

RIPSAW25: EXPECTED to act

Major oz: Hitler is a role model for some of today's kids.

BPRAL22169:Er -- a role model "models" the "role."

RIPSAW25: exactly

Major oz: that ain't how you 'sposed to act

RIPSAW25: they show you what is expected

BPRAL22169:bingo

GHMyst: Good discussion....but I must be going. Good night, all.

OHostZim: Nite, Ed

Major oz: by myst

RIPSAW25: Rest Well myst

BPRAL22169:Now, my disagreement is that Heinlein would probably have despised the concept of a "role" to begin with.

BPRAL22169:(except in the limited sense of "function")

Major oz: But with a nudge and a wink

TAWN3: Bye myst

SageMerlin:Tunnel is a good place to look at the failure of role models to model good roles

BPRAL22169:Anyone who is genuinely "present" in his own life would be torn apart by role expectations.

Major oz: After he labored so long to create Mike's mentor...

OHostZim: Fer instance ... Grant?

SageMerlin:If that is who I think you mean yes

SageMerlin:Looks the part but fails the role

Major oz: US type

Major oz: ?

TAWN3: Any military officer or Sr. NCO is acutely aware that they are a role model. It comes with

OHostZim: Jock, Bruce ... ever Ripley, Grant's lieutenant?

RIPSAW25: Precisely

Major oz: Agreed, Tawn

TAWN3: That may be why so many athletes and artists hate being called a role model,

SageMerlin:Oh, God yes

TAWN3: they want to do their thing, not lead.

OHostZim: They are simply performers ...

RIPSAW25: they don't want the responsibility that comes with their status

Major oz: they get traded to the cowboys.........

SageMerlin:Just ask Wilt Chamberlain

SageMerlin:About being a role model

SageMerlin:He hated that stuff

TAWN3: exactly.

OHostZim: Think about Pat Boone, for a second. Imagine how he had to live his life. Afraid.

SageMerlin:Once said I have no choice about people looking up to me

SageMerlin:If no one laughs I am logging off

TAWN3: being a role model puts one in a position of leadership whether they like it or not. And vice versa.

OHostZim: lol

Major oz: ha

SageMerlin:Thank you

RIPSAW25: ha

SageMerlin:It is possible to get too intense about this stuff

SageMerlin:Its not rocket science

SageMerlin:Oh, right. it is

OHostZim: seriously ... this is an amazing dicussion ... naw!

SageMerlin:BTW, does anyone else skip over RAH's tortured attempts to describe faster than light travel

Major oz: Although I can distinguish among role model and mentor, there is some overlap.

SageMerlin:They annoy me to no end

TAWN3: Well, there are more college level courses on leadership, role models and other management

BPRAL22169:Actually I thought it pretty standard stuff (FTL)

TAWN3: and sociological topics than there are on SF. :-)

RIPSAW25: because no one is getting that data growing up anymore

Major oz: How was it tourtored?

TAWN3: No.

SageMerlin:Hot pokers mostly

TAWN3: No to FTL.

SageMerlin:Sometimes that iron maiden thing

SageMerlin:No, David I am not drinking yet

BPRAL22169:And let's not forget the ever popular bamboo shoots

SageMerlin:Yet

RIPSAW25: RAH was always certain to put science in his SF

TAWN3: under the finger nails

BPRAL22169:Yes.

SageMerlin:I had them with dinner

OHostZim: No, I see where you're going ... the Haldeman route probably requires a lesser suspension of disbelief

SageMerlin:Bamboo Shoots not faster than light travel

Major oz: I had a guy working for me that was well respected for his descriptions of matter...

SageMerlin:PRetty solid stuff

SageMerlin:Matter

TAWN3: Mara as the Buddhists say.

OHostZim: But that much science was too much of a distraction. Hi, Len welcome. We're trying to

SageMerlin:Maya

Major oz: ...activity at fastER than light. He had no clue, however, how to get there.

RIPSAW25: I loved his torchships

SageMerlin:Take a left at Jupitor

OHostZim: identify exactly how different RAH's juveniles were from others written then.

RIPSAW25: none of that damn turning and banking in space

TAWN3: Queen Maya, and Mara. Or the other way around?

SageMerlin:We just did that

BPRAL22169:Oh, I know that one:"better."

SageMerlin:Heinlein's characters grow. In other juves they just succeed

Major oz: good point, sage

SageMerlin:but remain largely unchanged from the experience

OHostZim: Always character development, rarely gadget stories truly ...

BPRAL22169:That's a pulp writing convention. For some reason critics are starting to call that kind of

Major oz: In many rdp books, they "just make it". In H's, they prevail

BPRAL22169:thing "Campbellian."

RIPSAW25: well really, how much did the Hardy Boys grow between books

SageMerlin:They are still 16 and 17

TAWN3: I wonder why (hehe).

TAWN3: Campbellian that is.

RIPSAW25: a kids book doesn't need to be a great personal growth experience

SageMerlin:I couldn't get my son to read a Hardy boy with a $50 bribe

OHostZim: Never noticed any 'growth' ... whatever happened to Nancy Drew ... did she ever marry?

BPRAL22169:I think the critics are just ignorant. And mundus vult decepi

SageMerlin:She's still a virgin I hear

SageMerlin:You know b

OHostZim: Shhhh!

SageMerlin:Bill you are really over educated

SageMerlin:I never use words with more than three vowels

TAWN3: I read them all. Must be a generational thing. Now they like Goosebumps.

OHostZim: The world wills it.

BPRAL22169:No - 'the world wishes to be deceived."

RIPSAW25: is there really any idea more disturbing to an adolescent than the idea that you changes DON'T STOP

TAWN3: Mara. Or Maya.

SageMerlin:Maya

Major oz: ??

OHostZim: There's an interesting passage in Grumbles (Heinlein was so fed up when he finished Cotg

SageMerlin:Mara owned the Giants

TAWN3: Forget which is which. The world is an illusion so it likes to be deceived.

OHostZim: he didn't want to write any more juveniles!

BPRAL22169:That would have meant more if he hadn't said exactly the same thing after each one!

TAWN3: Yes.

TAWN3: yes

OHostZim: He was depressed.

RIPSAW25: true, he was always arguing with his editor

OHostZim: He kept saying it louder and louder.

BPRAL22169:I think that one in particular was because he got a real feeling for how little the Scribner

BPRAL22169:house stood behind him.

Major oz: But he was "established" by then. they would publish whatever he wrote.

Major oz: If he wanted to do another Juvie, he could.

SageMerlin:No biggie

TAWN3: He was getting popular enough (success = power) to complain.

SageMerlin:The Post printed every word I wrote when I worked there

OHostZim: The write to avoid annoying anyone who might writer a criticism attitude really got to him.

SageMerlin:Sooner or later

TAWN3: Which Post?

SageMerlin:NY

OHostZim: write

RIPSAW25: yes, but that was post-60's right Sage

SageMerlin:No, I worked there from 67 to 71

SageMerlin:Okay a little post sixties

RIPSAW25: I sit corrected

SageMerlin:How old did you think I was?

BPRAL22169:No, the sixties didn't end until 1972

OHostZim: Does anyone know what gibe against organized religion they made him pull in CotG?

Major oz: ...and they didn't start till Buddy Holly's crash....

SageMerlin:Isn't that a jibe?

OHostZim: And, has anyone read the slanted for an adult audience version that was serialized.

RIPSAW25: oh please, everyone on AOL is a stunning, gorgeous 25 year old stud/slut with great hair

OHostZim: probably. I spell like a two year old sometimes

BPRAL22169:I have those 4 issues of ASF, but I haven't read them.

SageMerlin:NO BUT I WILL PAY ANY PRICE FOR A COPY

SageMerlin:You are kidding Bill

RIPSAW25: I know, I've read the profiles

SageMerlin:A priceless artifact like that?

TAWN3: PS. Your right sage. Just looked it up. Queen Maya, therefor it's Mara for the world as a

TAWN3: physical illusion.

BPRAL22169:I will be happy to loan them to you if you, UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE will actually return books.

BPRAL22169:PS they aren't priceless; they're about $5 per issue.

Major oz: What was the serialization, Zim?

SageMerlin:Price is in the eye of the beholoder

BPRAL22169:Nope, Tawn, Maya is "illusion."

Major oz: ...in the "hand" of the.....

SageMerlin:Let's make a deal . Bill

OHostZim: In Astounding (?) SF. he wrote he intended

to slant the serial for adults ...

RIPSAW25: well, rolks, this role model/mentor/ trainer/sergeant needs to get his rest

SageMerlin:I will trade you some unpublished sufi texts

RIPSAW25: Rest Well, All

OHostZim: You too RIP. Nice you came.

RIPSAW25: thank you

Major oz: 'nite, Rip

RIPSAW25: G'Nite

TAWN3: Just looked it up. Queen Maya's Dream, where she is told of her coming immaculate birth.

TAWN3: birthing.

Major oz: What are you people talking about?

BPRAL22169:I just pulled down my copies of Sept-Dec. 57.

OHostZim: I am totally lost on Queen Maya. What are we talking about, Sage?

TAWN3: Buddha's birth.

Major oz: ahhhhhhh

OHostZim: Oh ...

OHostZim: Click

TAWN3: Also, Mara, is the "illusion" of reality (physical world).

SageMerlin:Time out everyone

SageMerlin:Take a breathe

Major oz: hokay

BPRAL22169:No, Maya is the dance of illusion.

SageMerlin:breath

SageMerlin:Okay, breathe

SageMerlin:What do I care

TAWN3: Ok.

SageMerlin:Can't have you all not breathing

OHostZim: How about a five minute break ... afk, to refresh and refill?

Major oz: hokay

SageMerlin:OKay. The scotch is just out reach

OHostZim: Back at 10:30 ET?

OHostZim: (sides gotta kiss Andi who just got home)

OHostZim: Wasn't my wife after all, Daughter was doing the dishes ... amazing!

OHostZim: How you doing Len?

Lenjazz:I'm great, my scotch is right here.

OHostZim: Smart man ...

OHostZim: This is a chat that went way deep ... not OT, but into frontiers ...

OHostZim: but we'll eventually 'turn again home.'

OHostZim: Tell me how you're doing on whichever screen play you're aiming after.

Lenjazz:I re-read SpaceSuit this week after our chat...am astounded at how much RAH has stolen

Lenjazz:The trial of mankind just blew me away

OHostZim: "file off the serial numbers" .... from where you think?

Lenjazz:I am reminded of the first Q episode in Star Trek TNG...rip off right from Spacesuit.

Lenjazz:I mean, so close it hurts

OHostZim: We'll do SpaceSuit next.

Lenjazz:I know.

Lenjazz:It's been years since I read CofthG.

OHostZim: I've seen some of the Q episodes ... can't recall which ones. I'll have to look. Isn't it

OHostZim: absolutely fun to hit them after you're educated and read maybe one-third what he may have?

Lenjazz:Preaching to the choir here.

OHostZim: It's like uncovering a plum pie and discovering meat!

OHostZim: Yes ... we do a lot of that, but it's fun to enjoy each others discoveries. There is so much

OHostZim: in these things. You simply cannot see it all.

OHostZim: The Life on the Mississippi aspect in Starman Jones for example.

OHostZim: Not my favorite Twain ...

Lenjazz:I never thought much about the depth of the work as a kid...I read the story. Now, when

OHostZim: never reread it since childhood

SageMerlin:All of which reminds me of another Farmer...

SageMerlin:Jose Philip and the Riverworld Series

Lenjazz:I view John McCain's bid for the presidency, I, all of sudden think of Lazurus.

OHostZim: that's exactly it ... I read and enjoyed ... but didn't realize what he was doing.

BPRAL22169:I all of a sudden think of running for another planet.

OHostZim: Hi, Ron, welcome.

Dehede011: Evening folks.

SageMerlin:I am blissfully ignorant of the entire political process.

OHostZim: Well, everyone replenished in beverages?

BPRAL22169:Yo. you're in for it now -- I picked up THE BELL CURVE today.

SageMerlin:And I am bound and determined to stay that way.

Dehede011: Good

Lenjazz:Poor Robert...if only he knew what he did to my political psyche.

Lenjazz:You guys type faster than I do.

Dehede011: Sorry to be late, got held up after class.

OHostZim: Okay ... met LenJazz, btw, everyone. Gentleman's a screenwriter and wants to write a RAH

OHostZim: screenplay.

OHostZim: Someday ...

TAWN3: Really? Let us know what you think. The media distorted it alot I suspect.

BPRAL22169:Have you picked a property yet?

SageMerlin:Okay, are you a real screen writer?

SageMerlin:I write screens too

Lenjazz:Uh oh...yes, am inquiring about Tunnel

SageMerlin:Great project...don't do it

BPRAL22169:I believe that one has already been picked up.

Lenjazz:Real screenwriter...there's a question.

SageMerlin:Where are you based?

Lenjazz:Yes...so I am told...but can't find out who has the rights.

SageMerlin:Just want to know if we have a mutual friend....

Major oz: could be:reel screenwriter........

SageMerlin:screen writer named Tom Topor

BPRAL22169:E-mail me your e-mail address, and I'll find out for you.

Lenjazz:I am in Tucson (with Paradigm agency in LA).

Dehede011: Didn't VH say only one book was left under option or whatever they call it.

Lenjazz:Okay...thurman@azstarnet.com

Lenjazz:Tom Torpor? Really?

SageMerlin:We worked together at the Post in the late sixties

BPRAL22169:I would change my name if I had that one.

SageMerlin:Haven't spoken to him in many years

SageMerlin:But he remains someone of whom I am very fond

Lenjazz:Know the name...not the person.

BPRAL22169:The one I would like to see done (either of 2 actually) is the two original stories he wrote

SageMerlin:Check out his novel, The Codicil. excellent piece of suspense writing

BPRAL22169:for the 1953 anthology series that never got off the ground.

BPRAL22169:"Home" or "The Tourist."

Lenjazz:Options...only one book was under option? Phone...brd.

Lenjazz:BRD

Lenjazz:one more time...BRB

OHostZim: The ones that were not in TMWSTM or the other early collection?

BPRAL22169:No -- a television series.

OHostZim: No, but the others were from it ... "not in" ...

BPRAL22169:No -- of the 14 episodes he planned, he wrote screenplays or treatments based on his own

BPRAL22169:stories -- I rememebr offhand "Life-Line" and "Misfit." But he wrote two original stories

BPRAL22169:(three if you include the pilot -- but the pilot was made into Project Moonbase) that have

BPRAL22169:never been collected or printed anywhere.

Major oz: yo, loose

Lucylou98: Evening, fellow earthlings.

OHostZim: Hi, Lucy!

TAWN3: Hi Lucy

Lucylou98: Zim, Oz nice to see people are really online!

Lucylou98: Hi, tawn

Dehede011: Hi, Lucy

Lucylou98: Hey, Ron

Dehede011: NO that is "Hay Ron"

Major oz: So, Sage; what have we learned ?

Lucylou98: hay is for horses?

Dehede011: And jackasses. [G]

Lucylou98: oh my

OHostZim: We're just coming off break Lucy ... ready for second half of Sage's journey

SageMerlin:Okay sports fans

Lucylou98: Did I interupt something?

SageMerlin:Ready for the second half?

Major oz: no....you've enhanced it......// ready !!

Lucylou98: ok, It was so quiet.

OHostZim: Sage has a frozen screen ... wait one.

SageMerlin:Okay here we are again

SageMerlin:While it is pointless to talk about better or best in RAH context

SageMerlin:I wonder how we might vote on which is the most effectual of the juveniles

Major oz: effectual ?????

Dehede011: Is Citizen a Juvenile?

Major oz: wazzzat ?

SageMerlin:No more or less than Tom Sawyer or Hucklebery Finn

Lucylou98: try this once more

OHostZim: affected readers?

SageMerlin:Thank you David

SageMerlin:Which has has the most overall long term impact

TAWN3: CotG

TAWN3: For me

SageMerlin:Devil's advocate: The military academies assign ST

BPRAL22169:The ones I think about most are CotG and FitS

Major oz: not having read them all, I pass

OHostZim: I'd come close to voting for Citizen, if only because Thorby is so much younger at start &

SageMerlin:FITS?

OHostZim: his condition is so much more bereft of hope.

TAWN3: ST not in the Juvie "class". If it was, without a doubt, ST.

BPRAL22169:farmer in the Sky

Dehede011: Citizen

BPRAL22169:Citizen is just so -- moving.

OHostZim: That kid is about 8 @ beginning, and for starters, he's been 'abused' big time.

SageMerlin:Now, which was closest to Heinlein's own affections....and be prepared to defend your thesis

TAWN3: No opinion.

Lenjazz:Whew...back.

SageMerlin:Pause folks

OHostZim: What was RAH's own favorite?

TAWN3: Change that. Tunnel in the Sky or Farmer in the Sky. Rugged individualism.

Dehede011: No clue.

SageMerlin:Hold on a second

Major oz: By our (loosly agreed on) criteria, why isn't Poddy a juvie ?

Lenjazz:I thought Poddy was juvie.

OHostZim: He didn't consider it one. It's a cautionary tale for post-adolescents and parents.

SageMerlin:Len, I believe you dropped in with a very specific question for which you need answer

BPRAL22169:You can think of it that way, but it's very atypical.

OHostZim: I'm very atypical

SageMerlin:Relative to current rights holders for a project you have in mind

Lenjazz:No problem...Poddy is a fav.

SageMerlin:Do you feel that you have gotten through on that?

Lenjazz:I wrote Eleanor on who owns the rights to Tunnel. No answer yet.

OHostZim: I think Bill may be able to help ...

OHostZim: WB, Oz

SageMerlin:We are all here to help

SageMerlin:In whatever way we can

Lenjazz:WB owns Tunnel???!!

Major oz: sorry --my local (propane powered) ISP drops me after 2 hours.

BPRAL22169:Mrs. H. mentioned that to me recently; I'll dig up the letter.

SageMerlin:Okay, on to the Poddy question

Major oz: ok

Lenjazz:Thanks...

BPRAL22169:Are we going to ho back to RAH's favorite?

SageMerlin:Oh, I forgot myself

SageMerlin:Okay, my emotional favorite would be COTG.

BPRAL22169:I can't remember him saying which one was his favorite.

SageMerlin:My intellectual choice would be ST

SageMerlin:The exercise is to try to read his mind and his heart

OHostZim: It's arguable that he put as much work in

Citizen as Poddy ... but isn't it odd the name of

TAWN3: Good way of stating both sage.

OHostZim: Poddy is the one cop who ignores Thorby and allows him to escape.

SageMerlin:Scary odd

Major oz: ?????????

SageMerlin:Because Poddy knows he's there

OHostZim: They had to be linked in his mind somehow.

OHostZim: There's a cop who sees and recognizes Thorby, and there's looking for Thorby to forcibly

OHostZim: interrogate him and lets him escape.

OHostZim: His name is "Poddy"

SageMerlin:If I may venture an opinion

Major oz: AH, so........

SageMerlin:Not that anyone ever stopped me

OHostZim: Go ... please.

SageMerlin:I think the titles tell us a great deal

BPRAL22169:CoTG was originally "The chain and the stars

SageMerlin:A futurist like RAH is thinking about our presumably inevitable expansion to the stars

SageMerlin:Either title still fits

SageMerlin:Break the chain and reach the stars

SageMerlin:But never forget your duties as a citizen

TAWN3: With microcosm societies in space ships.

OHostZim: And how chained that freedom might be ... once there?

Dehede011: And a cop named "Poddy" calls to mind the old stereotypical cop named "Paddy"

BPRAL22169:The theme of freedom and citienship was always very important to RH

SageMerlin:I believe the two books are forever linked together, because they are both about duty and

SageMerlin:service

BPRAL22169:Paddy -- tht's what I was thinking; the names may have come from diffrent directions.

OHostZim: Enormous expense to travel between stars ... you pay a price to do it.

BPRAL22169:convergent.

SageMerlin:The other microcosmic societies, Tunnel, Farmer, Between Planets

BPRAL22169:"Universe"

SageMerlin:They are all codas to the main theme

BPRAL22169:"If This Goes On."

SageMerlin:God I wish I had your memory Bill

SageMerlin:In fact, I wish I had my memory back

BPRAL22169:So do I

Lenjazz:What about It This Goes On...

OHostZim: Yes, I almost mentioned "Universe" but so few have copies of it.

TAWN3: EU?

BPRAL22169:The Cabal is a microcosm within the Theocracy.

BPRAL22169:Orphans of the Sky is widely available.

OHostZim: A 'created' futuristic society ... a 'what if?'

Major oz: got it (somewhere)

Lenjazz:okay...

Major oz: One of my favorites.

OHostZim: But not to a casual shopper ...

BPRAL22169:I can't remember whether that one is OP at the moment.

Major oz: ...speaks well of the Mormon's while condemning a theocracy.

BPRAL22169:VH says a lot of the contracts recently came up for renewal.

OHostZim: It is. Has been for a while.

OHostZim: Collectors have it.

BPRAL22169:Several copies always available on Ebay

SageMerlin:Bill, would you please publish a list of abbreviations

Lenjazz:Uh...was that for me BPral22169?

OHostZim: 'xactly.

SageMerlin:So I can figure out what you are talking about

TAWN3: What are you guys talking about, Expanded Universe?

BPRAL22169:Sorry, Lenhazz, which remark?

SageMerlin:ddd

Lenjazz:Contracts...

BPRAL22169:No, "Universe" is the first half of Orphans of the Sky

TAWN3: oh

BPRAL22169:Sorry, len, no. That was about Orphans of the Sky being out of print currently.

OHostZim: No:Orphans of the Sky, the original end to the Future History, before Laz Long spun out into

OHostZim: the later novels.

Major oz: Expanded Universe is a collection of shorts and not so shorts, interspersed....

OHostZim: later

Major oz: ...with essays on this and that.

SageMerlin:We love you anyway David even if youc can;t spell

BPRAL22169:Did you know all that new material is a 5-hour telephone interview with Baen?

OHostZim: And have 'senior moments' ...

Major oz: Lead components are:If this goes On, Coverntry, and another in the series of concepts.

SageMerlin:I am not that far behind you

Dehede011: Bill, what "new material?"

BPRAL22169:All the forewords and afterwords in EU

SageMerlin:Okay, enough....unless someone can demonstrate we are still on topic.....or have we played

SageMerlin:out the topic for tonight

Major oz: no

SageMerlin:If no, then what?

OHostZim: What about the Kim connection postulated ...?

Lucylou98: still trying to figure out what's going on.

Major oz: did you discuss why Podykyne wasn't a juvie, while I was bumped?

BPRAL22169:Let's take up the question you posed before we went back to RAH's favorite

SageMerlin:We are not in Kansas

SageMerlin:I am not sure that it isn't a juve

BPRAL22169:I think he wrote it because Putnam's wanted a juvenile

Major oz: Is it considered a cusp novel, like ST ?

SageMerlin:Organizational Comment:

Major oz: go

SageMerlin:Who says its not a juvie?

SageMerlin:And what says it is?

OHostZim: I consider it so ... Heinlein said it wasn't.

SageMerlin:Well, what does he know about it

Major oz: not me.......just wanted opinion.

OHostZim: True ...

SageMerlin:Why did he think it wasn't?

BPRAL22169:I am neutral to the question; but I think you can make a case either way.

Major oz: [ducking]

Lenjazz:You guys are slick.

SageMerlin:I noticed

SageMerlin:We just type fast

Lenjazz:And you type quickly.

SageMerlin:fast

SageMerlin:faster

Major oz: slick, or sick ?

SageMerlin:I also read minds

Lenjazz:Ugh.

OHostZim: I think it was marketed as a juvenile and that brought it to an attention of juveniles

Lenjazz:sick will do.

SageMerlin:When there are any around

SageMerlin:Said that to my girl friend

Lucylou98: Len, you have to be careful around them.

BPRAL22169:That was very slick.

Lucylou98: They know what's going on

OHostZim: but it comes after Starship Troopers and Glory Road, both of which are cusp novels.

Lenjazz:Am catching on.

SageMerlin:and she said I was being crazy

Lenjazz:Oh please, Glory Road?

OHostZim: Novels aimed as grown-up juvenile readers.

SageMerlin:Okay, I would not allow Glory Road into the cusp group.

Major oz: I recall hearing (don't remember where) that Poddy was one of the first of H's ....

SageMerlin:There is nothing cuspy about GR

Major oz: ....books to be recommended by school librarians.

Major oz: Has anyone else heard that ?

Lenjazz:I certainly wouldn't have heard.

BPRAL22169:I would have a hard time believing tht -- school libraries were his biggest market for the Scribners juveniles -- and the Christmas market.

OHostZim: To me there was cuspy. It was the counterpart and comparison of Troopers.

TAWN3: His market was libraries and schools. That is why he

SageMerlin:Sorry, David. I just don't see that

TAWN3: often had to fight Dalhgkiesh over content.

OHostZim: The little bit of acid ... don't take what I told you in Troopers too seriously ...

Lenjazz:Every writer's market was schools and libraries in those days.

BPRAL22169:And when he gave in -- which he often did - it was because she had to sell the books to libraries

Major oz: I tend to go with Sage here -- too much sex in GR for it to be a cusp.

SageMerlin:Not to mention thematic variances

TAWN3: It's not a cusp.

SageMerlin:Juvies tend to have straight line plots

Dehede011: I can't speak for the rest of you but his books became generally available in 1970

OHostZim: It was aimed at young adults, not the euphemism for children, but "young" adults.

SageMerlin:And GR is beautfully all over the place

SageMerlin:No sale.

Dehede011: Before that he was available to me only in libraries for the most part.

OHostZim: And a lot of beautiful satire in there.

Lenjazz:RAH knew where the market was...like Jubal.

Major oz: ...and BEFORE viet nam

Lucylou98: and again

OHostZim: which was prescient, wasn't it. Hi, Suzan.

TAWN3: I tend to agree with Zim's "acid" to counterweight ST though.

TAWN3: A less serious version so to speak.

Major oz: ??

BPRAL22169:I kind of doubt ST was in his mind when GR was written - 5 years later. And why would Cabell

BPRAL22169:make such a good counterweight to ST, anyway?

OHostZim: You ain't gonna get Rasczak as a platoon leader, kid. You're gonna get someone passed over

OHostZim: twice, and mad at the Army.

TAWN3: Counterweigtht may be the wrong word. Try juxtaposition.

OHostZim: You ain't gonna get Zim. You're gonna get someone that wants to courtmartial you.

BPRAL22169:Commercial writers very rarely write juxtapositions to 5-year old books.

SageMerlin:But we know that RAH was an oddity among commercial writers

BPRAL22169:He would have been making contrasts to his most recent project -- Podkayne and Stranger.

Major oz: did I miss a key phrase here.......?

OHostZim: Exactly ... and everyone knows exactly how 'commerical' RAH was getting later in life.

SageMerlin:Clarke wrote the same book twice because he was dissatisfied with the first outcome

TAWN3: Highgrading.

OHostZim: Yes

SageMerlin:I think that Heinlein in contradistinction

BPRAL22169:"Against the Fall of Night"?

OHostZim: And Revisiting!

SageMerlin:was working the same themes over and over because he still had more and more to say about it

SageMerlin:Against the Fall of Night and The City and the

SageMerlin:Stars

SageMerlin:Both of which were later plagarized into really bad movies

SageMerlin:For which I don't think he got credit

SageMerlin:And probably didn;'t want any

SageMerlin:No I can't remember the titles, thank god

SageMerlin:I might be tempted to rent them

OHostZim: Aside from RAH's intent ... Poddy never develops an improvement in character. She doesn't

Major oz: Reading a RAH juvie and seeing a John Wayne movie must be approached the...

OHostZim: succeed, and neither does Clark.

SageMerlin:Dis-agree

BPRAL22169:no bildung

Major oz: ...same way. You know what is going to happen -- its just interesting...

BPRAL22169:Clarke does. At least, it's implied.

Major oz: ...to see how THIS ONE plays out.

OHostZim: Maybe ... in the second ending.

SageMerlin:You just hit on

SageMerlin:Clarke flaw as a writer

SageMerlin:His characters are never really human

BPRAL22169:How pivotal do you think that speech by Uncle Tom (snigger) about how Poddy's parents were

BPRAL22169:inadequate as parents. is. There needs to be a verb in there somewhere. Insert as needed

SageMerlin:I have always wondered exactly whom he was speaking to that time

SageMerlin:I believe he was talking to a whole generation of neglectful parents

BPRAL22169:Culture-criticism, perhaps?

OHostZim: People disagree with me. I think it's ironic. Tom is equally culpable.

Major oz: Clarke's flaw was (and still is) that he looks down at his reader -- something RAH would ...

Major oz: never do

SageMerlin:The one just after my parents and just before my own stint as a parent

BPRAL22169:Well, yes -- but he's not a parent.

Dehede011: A Dr. Spock commentary??

SageMerlin:Well, its hard to be a legend in your own mind

OHostZim: I agree with the criticism of a whole generation. No, he's our moral guide ... our role model

SageMerlin:even if you are th e gay chancellor of a backwater university

Major oz: well said, Sage

OHostZim: some would have it. Hides behind children when threatened with assassination.

BPRAL22169:Like Twain, a conscious and deliberate public moralist. Wells, too, for that matter.

SageMerlin:And practically unique in his generation in that respect

SageMerlin:Much as I hate to say it, it would seem that he shares moralist kudus with those two paragon

OHostZim: As if George Bush said to Barbara, "let's take some of the grandchildren to Kuwait ...

SageMerlin:Ayn Rand and and the scientology guy

OHostZim: there's a chance that Sadam won't try to whack me if we do."

BPRAL22169:Hubbard? Shudder.

SageMerlin:Didn't say I agreed with him

OHostZim: "Ain't gonna happen"

OHostZim: But Uncle Tom does it!

SageMerlin:And it was probably the worst off handed comment RAH ever made]

SageMerlin:\when he told Hubbard to start his own religion

Lucylou98: and that he did

SageMerlin:Oh well. I see Hubbard in Stranger, of course

OHostZim: ... kin we talk about Kim and CotG, please.

BPRAL22169:Sage, have you ever read THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT?

SageMerlin:Know but it sounds like me

OHostZim: Hi, Family, , welcome, this is the Robert Heinlein

OHostZim: Reading Group. Tonight we're chatting

OHostZim: about one of his last juvenile novels,

OHostZim: Citizen of the Galaxy, as part of an

BPRAL22169:hehe -- I see Patty Paiwonski in TRBR.

OHostZim: examination of all his juvenile works.

OHostZim: ::

OHostZim: SageMerlin is our cohost. Please follow

OHostZim: his lead.

SageMerlin:don't follow me...i'm lost

OHostZim: Could have been sister Helen and Deacon ...

BPRAL22169:(where IS that darned e-meter?)

SageMerlin:I think we can try to tie up some loose ends

SageMerlin:Or unravel some

Major oz: The first time I encountered Patty, I could think only of Shelly Winters.

Lenjazz:This is way too much fun. SageMerlin...we have to talk someday. I have to go for now...

BPRAL22169:Now that's funny.

SageMerlin:Okay, I will sleep well with that in mind

Lenjazz:Lucy...keep ;em honest.

OHostZim: Thanks for coming, Len ...

TAWN3: Bye Len.

Major oz: by len

OHostZim: and come back!

SageMerlin:I am around all the time under various names

Dehede011: Bye

Lenjazz:Thanks, gang. I'll come next week for Spacesuit.

SageMerlin:Which reminds me folks.....

OHostZim: ! Great !

SageMerlin:In general, if you want to reach me these days

SageMerlin:I am rarely online at night any more

SageMerlin:But I am at mortgagemavin@phmcdirect.com during the day

SageMerlin:And no this is not a solicitation for mortgages

SageMerlin:Unless you live in Massachusetts or NH

SageMerlin:in which case you get the RAH discount

Major oz: ick

OHostZim: ssshhh!

SageMerlin:Hey, its a living

SageMerlin:Just kidding.

BPRAL22169:Especially since we know he hated mortgages!

SageMerlin:Well, yes, I never thought of that

SageMerlin:Thank you very much

BPRAL22169:I wonder, Dave (btw, has your copy of #6 arrived?) if there is enough familiarity with Kim t

SageMerlin:Excuse me while I post my resume an monster. com

BPRAL22169:to talk about it now. Can we poll the group?

Major oz: Didn't we once discuss what we would have taken if we had gone with Rod in Tunnel ?

OHostZim: But if it wasn't for the mortgage we wouldn't have gotten Life Line ... not yet.

BPRAL22169:Don't worry, Sage, he's not going to dis your mortgages.

SageMerlin:Best rates in the country

SageMerlin:Okay back on track

Major oz: pay cash

OHostZim: So you could say the mortgage gave us RAH.

SageMerlin:Has everyone seen the post about Kim

Major oz: ?

SageMerlin:and its similarity to COTG

Major oz: no

Lucylou98: Can't access it

Major oz: yes, yes

Major oz: didn't twig, for a moment

SageMerlin:Rudyard Kipling's novel Kim bears a remarkable resemblance to

SageMerlin:the topic of tonight's discussion

BPRAL22169:When Jane started talking about it, it seemed obvious, but not until then.

SageMerlin:My comment on this is that I have a hard time visualizing RAH thumbing through

OHostZim: In Kim, there's a comparison with the plot line of CotG. Other similarities ... names & stuff

Major oz: "...filing serial numbers....." again

SageMerlin:thumbing through I as was saying Kipling's book and using it as an outline for his own

SageMerlin:On the other hand, the similiarities are rather strong.

BPRAL22169:I don't think he did any thumbing through Kim -- but the memory of the story was intact in

OHostZim: One character in Kim, the master spy who takes Kim into hand is a colonel named

BPRAL22169:his memory.

SageMerlin:Name

OHostZim: "Creighton" same name as Thor's Grandfather, the useless academic who sells him out in the proxy fight.

OHostZim: I want to know what RAH could have been saying there, because I cannot figure it out.

SageMerlin:That's easy

Major oz: Creighton is in Kim or in COTG ?

BPRAL22169:both

OHostZim: GA (in both)

SageMerlin:Creighton represents an oppressor to RAH

SageMerlin:because he represents the British empire and its repression of the Indian people

OHostZim: The master spy who twists Kim to his own nefarious ends ... ?

SageMerlin:Remember, this is a nonparial libertarian at work here

Major oz: The only Creighton I know of is the UP guy that surveyed the line from....

SageMerlin:Both Creighton's are very near sighted, and both sell out their humanity

Major oz: ...Omaha to Promentory point. and after whom the university in Omaha...

Major oz: ...is named. I went to their Prep school.

Major oz: Jeb, don't ya know

SageMerlin:Wait a minute. What was Thor's FATHER's name?

SageMerlin:And if anyone says Daddy

OHostZim: Originally?

SageMerlin:I am outa here

--2-3 minute break in the chat log--

SageMerlin:Which would put you about ten back on the line of people waiting to do that

SageMerlin:Hello?

OHostZim: I cannot recall if "Creighton" is the first name of the grandfather or not.

Lucylou98: well, do something about, Sage too

OHostZim: I think it is.

BPRAL22169:I think it was the grandfather's family name.

OHostZim: Okay, I'll defer to that.

SageMerlin:I thought it was his father's given name

SageMerlin:But no, Bill, as usual, prevails

BPRAL22169:No - Thor's father changed his name to Rudbek

OHostZim: Father becomes a Rudbeck ...

SageMerlin:What I wouldn't give for his memories.

SageMerlin:The G rated ones

SageMerlin:I have better x's

OHostZim: What does Rudbek mean. "Red beak" as in dip your beak into the blood?

SageMerlin:It was originally

BPRAL22169:But Thorby's father was "Uncle Creighton" to Leda.

SageMerlin:Rubinsky

SageMerlin:I strike a winning blow for the memory challenged

SageMerlin:Have to change my premise if that be the case

OHostZim: So the professor sells Thorby out for money. And Colonel Creighton sells Kim out for Empire.

SageMerlin:No, seriously, Rudbek was originall

SageMerlin:y Rubinsky

OHostZim: Not a very good Baslim, would you say?

SageMerlin:Leda says they were just a family of shrewd peasants

SageMerlin:Of course, we can see Baslim as a cunning spy who loads this kid's head with all kinds of

OHostZim: Both Colonels ...

Major oz: who is Leda?

SageMerlin:burn before reading stuff and then sends him out into the universe on a life or death mission

BPRAL22169:Apparently I was wrong about Creighton - it was Thorby's father's Christian name. The grandparents were named "Bradley."

SageMerlin:Thor's cousin

OHostZim: 'duty, honor, country' stuff. Leda is Thorby's cousin who double crossed her father to swing

OHostZim: the proxy fight Thorby's way.

SageMerlin:Hey, who took my copy of COTG again

OHostZim: (her adopted father)

Major oz: Did she keep swans ?

BPRAL22169:The interesting thing is Thorby and Leda are the only two Rudbeks -- and they stick together

SageMerlin:No but we are heading toward the swan song part of the evening/

OHostZim: Could be ... beautiful. Betty Sorenson with class and money.

BPRAL22169:Girdie Fitzsnuggly minus 20 years.

OHostZim: Yep ...

Major oz: Ah, well.....time for me to take my Lopid and go to bed.

OHostZim: plus 20 million megabucks

OHostZim: Remember, everyone ...

OHostZim: read Oz's post about new topics.

Major oz: 10 ^^12 bucks -- a lot

Major oz: nite all

OHostZim: Schedule for future topics (Keyword to: aol://5863:126/mB:186809:2026)

TAWN3: nite.

SageMerlin:night night

OHostZim: We need nominations.

Lucylou98: night, oz

OHostZim: This has been a great chat; but it's

OHostZim: getting time to begin to end. Our next

OHostZim: meeting is on Thursday, Feburary 17, 2000,

OHostZim: 9 PM to midnight.

OHostZim: ::

OHostZim: Our topic will be Have

OHostZim: Space Suit--Will Travel, hosted by GCEMS.

OHostZim: ::

OHostZim: See you all then!

OHostZim:

OHostZim: And thank you Sage. Great job!

SageMerlin:Okay, folks. No need to push or shove. The line forms to the left and

OHostZim: Thank you all for coming!!!

BPRAL22169:Let's have the "thunderous applause" macro.

SageMerlin:make sure you hook up before you go out the door

Dehede011: Nitey nite Sargent Zim

TAWN3: See you all later.

OHostZim: thunderous applause ... and tomatoes! :::::::thunderous applause::::::

SageMerlin:Nice seeing your all again

OHostZim: @@@@@@ tomatoes!

SageMerlin:Watch it with the tomotoes.

Lucylou98: :::applauding:::night

BPRAL22169:A pleasure.

SageMerlin:This is my only clean shirt

OHostZim: Thanks Alan

BPRAL22169:You wore a clean shirt to this chat? What class!

SageMerlin:Pleasure David

SageMerlin:That was all I wore

OHostZim: And come back next week. We miss you.;

SageMerlin:This one was a lot of fun

BPRAL22169:We need the Nest's trick with Jubal's Hawaiian shirt.

OHostZim: Evenin' Rose ... we're just about to end ...

ROSEGH62: Just checking

BPRAL22169:Well, I'm outta here. Quite successful, I'd say.

OHostZim: Anyway I can help, let me know.

OHostZim: Heinlein reader?

OHostZim: G'nite, Bill

BPRAL22169:'night.

Closing Log 8:45 pm.


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