Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group
Saturday 12-14-02 5:00 P.M. EST
Red Planet Back to School, Part III

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Ha! Remembered the name this time.

AGplusone: afk and brb

AGplusone: b

AGplusone: Yawn.

AGplusone: Yawn, yawn, and yawn.

AGplusone: And also yawn!

AGplusone: Yawn!

AGplusone: And then of course, there's yawn!

AGplusone: :-):-(:-P;-)=-O:-*8-)>:o:-D:-$:-!

AGplusone: :-[O:-):-\:'(:-X

SimonMycroftxxx has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi there

AGplusone: The Heinlein Society Website

AGplusone: Hi, Simon. How's it going?

SimonMycroftxxx: OK. and you?

AGplusone: I'm sitting here . . . looking around . . . I think Dave is off outside. I'm fine.

SimonMycroftxxx: Dave the elder? Off on the Lanai, or elsewhere?

AGplusone: How'd you get triple x ?

AGplusone: Yes. He sometimes takes his wife shopping on Saturday, just logs.

AGplusone: SimonMycroftxxx = Simon Jester?

SimonMycroftxxx: XXX ... from the book; whenever Mannie (et al) wanted a secure connection.

SimonMycroftxxx: Oh yeah.

AGplusone: Mychelle is available as well, I suppose.

SimonMycroftxxx: transvestism ... that's a very big word..

AGplusone: Wyoh was sure Mike was a girl.

SimonMycroftxxx: <np>MychelleYY</np>

SimonMycroftxxx: OK, so I'm a fake ;-) ...

AGplusone: :-)

AGplusone: I keep Ag+1 rather than go to another name because that's the one I started with. When AOL insisted its "Hosts" use other names I used "Zim" ...

SimonMycroftxxx: Been a while since Jane Davitt posted to afh ... heard anything?

AGplusone: Nothing from her at all. Except she's evidently happy being a Buffy fan.

AGplusone: Writing Buffy stories over there I've heard.

AGplusone: alf.fan.buffy or something

SimonMycroftxxx: I oughter start p/e/s/t/e/r/i/n/g posting to a buffy group or two...

AGplusone: Naw. I'd be unable to resist turning out porn stories if I went there ...

SimonMycroftxxx: LOL

AGplusone: so I stay far away!

AGplusone: Sarah Michelle is a pretty girl. Not bad for what, 30+ now?

SimonMycroftxxx: All those penetrating fangs, Stakes plunging into soft flesh...

SimonMycroftxxx: <bucket> cold water </bucket>

SimonMycroftxxx: BBBRRRRR!!!!

AGplusone: Right. Read an article once saying that the reason gurls loved Buffy is it was a non-threatening substitute for sexuality.

SimonMycroftxxx: And Boiz?

AGplusone: I never quite keep up on Boiz.

AGplusone: Never was one.

SimonMycroftxxx: ?!?

AGplusone: They didn't have them in the 50s, doncha know.

SimonMycroftxxx: Aaahhh...

SimonMycroftxxx: (Mind you, isn't Ms. Trachtenberg circa 16 yrs old?)

AGplusone: Now James Madison Marlowe ... a 50s boy? [not sure who Trachtenberg is -- a Buffy actress?]

SimonMycroftxxx: (re: SMG's age...)

SimonMycroftxxx: Michelle Trahctenberg ... the actress who plays Dawn (Buffy's sister)

SimonMycroftxxx: who's JMM?

AGplusone: Oh, yeah. Buffy's ultimate replacement.

AGplusone: JMM is the lead juvenile in Red Planet that we are discussing today

SimonMycroftxxx: D'oh! I re-read it the other day, too...

AGplusone: First juvenile where RAH started up playing with names again.

AGplusone: Marquis Howe?

SimonMycroftxxx: BTW, who was the Tish in the dedication?

SimonMycroftxxx: Marquis - Marcus? Howe?

Randyjj55 has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi, Randy

Randyjj55: Aternoon/Evening, gentlemen

AGplusone: Hi, Randy. Simon, have you met ?

Randyjj55: Not sure, depending upon the person behind the nick...

AGplusone: I think Dave is shopping with the spousal overlord unit

Randyjj55: Thank goodness we got all that stuff done some time ago, here.

SimonMycroftxxx: I post as "Simon Jester", Randy.

Randyjj55: Okay, I do recognize that nickname on AFH

AGplusone: Rather hard to justify naming a kid "Marquis" unless you think you're doing him a favor.

AGplusone: Marquis Howe is the full name of the new Headmaster.

SimonMycroftxxx: ...unless you're an author...

SimonMycroftxxx: Yep, remember that bit...

Randyjj55: Well, we plebians just don't have the proper perspective, no doubt.

AGplusone: Unless you make all your characters call him "Markie" . . . as the Resident Agent does.

AGplusone: Or worse, "Stinky" as the boys do.

SimonMycroftxxx: "Marcus" means "warlike" - derived from Mars...

SimonMycroftxxx: Not so sure about Marquis, though.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: Possibly DeSade-related?

AGplusone: That is true. Heinlein playing again with games ... Yo, Kultsi ...

Randyjj55: Hi phrozen phin! :-)

KultsiKN: Hello, folks!

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi, Kultsi!

AGplusone: er, "names" ...

SimonMycroftxxx: or even name-games...

KultsiKN: Dividing my attention between you and pixel...

SimonMycroftxxx: Teresa?

SimonMycroftxxx: What's she doing to you?

SimonMycroftxxx: ;-)

Randyjj55: Well, there are many ways one can be warlike - one can also war against manners and culture, as well as countries.

AGplusone: or reindeer games (I had to watch one of the Xmas cartoons on the tube last night ... the Burl Ives one. How come I don't remember MONSTERS in the song?)

Randyjj55: Kultsi, tell pixelmeow to drop on in for a while.

pixelmeow has entered the room.

pixelmeow: hey!!!

AGplusone: Howe wants to make it a military school. Immediately institutes "junk on the bunk" diagrams, etc. Hi, Pix

SimonMycroftxxx: I had wondered whether this was another round in RAH's ongoing campaign against his editor...

Randyjj55: Speak of the ... er .... angel!

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi Pix!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Everybody. I'm back.

pixelmeow: ROFL!!

AGplusone: Good ol' Warlike Marquis (Marcus) (Mars) Howe.

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi Dave.

Randyjj55: Hi Dave W!

AGplusone: Hi, Dave. Small but cerce today, so far.

AGplusone: cherce?

DavidWrightSr: Dinner was spoiled. so we had to go get something.

pixelmeow: cherce? what's that?

SimonMycroftxxx: Incidentally, Kultsi, I came across the name "Kullervo" in a book on Northern Mythology a little while back.

SimonMycroftxxx: Is Kullervo a common name in Finland?

AGplusone: Old movies, Pix.

pixelmeow: Ah.

AGplusone: "choice" meaning good

KultsiKN: It's not really common, but there are some of us.

pixelmeow: I'm trying to recall the plot of the book, could I have a reminder?

Randyjj55: But .... I thought there could be only one?????

AGplusone: Katherine Hepburn's buddy used to pronounce it that way ... I'm blanking on his name.

Randyjj55: Spencer Tracy?

pixelmeow: that's him.

SimonMycroftxxx: Jim, Frank and Willis (the bouncer) go to college...

pixelmeow: AHA!!!

pixelmeow: Got it.

AGplusone: Boy lives on Mars. Has pet named Willis, like R2D2 but flesh and blood, goes to school.

pixelmeow: Thanks!!!

pixelmeow: Big bad school master.

pixelmeow: Long distant skating.

SimonMycroftxxx: Ver' ver' bad....

pixelmeow: Elders.

pixelmeow: so what are we talking about now?

AGplusone: Named Marquis Howe ... called "Markie" by the bad guys and "Stinky" by the students.

SimonMycroftxxx: Will Jackie be joining us? :-)

AGplusone: Marquis Howe and Heinlein's name-games again.

Randyjj55: Dogs and cats, mating in the streets ..... Oh, wait! That's another thing....

pixelmeow: ROFL!!!

AGplusone: I hope so ... haven't seen her.

AGplusone: wb, DtheE

SimonMycroftxxx: wb!

pixelmeow: got problems, DE???

DavidWrightSr: I got kicked out of the room for some reason. Had to restart AIM

pixelmeow: damn, that's a bright green!

pixelmeow: hurts my eyes...

AGplusone: Green?

SimonMycroftxxx: IE?

pixelmeow: any way to change that? DtE's name is that bright cyan color.

SimonMycroftxxx: Opera?

SimonMycroftxxx: or wot?

pixelmeow: uh, I'm on aim on winxp pro...

AGplusone: All you guys are bright blue. I'm red.

pixelmeow: many thanks to Steve and Jim...

Randyjj55: Well, not at the moment, but I was. I'm pretty much a live and let live sort. Been hanging around many years, and haven't caused too much trouble yet.

SimonMycroftxxx: I'm using Win98 <duck>

pixelmeow: I'm red, DtY is sorta khaki colored, Simon is pink

SimonMycroftxxx: and no bright green...

pixelmeow: Randy is gray

pixelmeow: well, maybe it's that outdated os...

pixelmeow: *run*

DavidWrightSr: Colors are assigned by AIM I think, and your own will always be in red, but the others appear to be at random

Randyjj55: Win98 <duck>? Is that the new successor to winXP? :-)

SimonMycroftxxx: DtE is bright cyan.

AGplusone: Everyone's typing in black, except you, Pix. You're bright blue.

SimonMycroftxxx: oughtter be a dead duck...

pixelmeow: Yes, my typing is blue, so I can see it well.

Randyjj55: Actually, it depends on how you have your AIM set up.

DavidWrightSr: Simon is yellow to me. pixel is brown randy is light grey and AG is bright blue-green

pixelmeow: Now don't you guys make me start ruining keyboards!

AGplusone: Like this?

pixelmeow: Lemme look.

SimonMycroftxxx: Everyone except DtE is fairly dark

pixelmeow: Yes!

Randyjj55: I'm light grey? I always fancied myself as an autumn....

DavidWrightSr: That's the nice things about the archives. It loses all these colors.

AGplusone: How's your son doing at Knox?

pixelmeow: I see nowhere to change the color of the screen names.

AGplusone: There is nowhere.

Randyjj55: Graduates next Thursday. We're heading out Wednesday to go pick him up and bring him home for leave.

DavidWrightSr: I don't think that you can.

pixelmeow: Congrats!

pixelmeow: Figures...

AGplusone: On some versions you get a red and blue, others assign colors arbitrarily.

KultsiKN: The name colors are taken from a list, I think.

DavidWrightSr: did my color change from the original to when I came back in?

AGplusone: AOL 'snazziness' which is a PITA.

AGplusone: My version just makes everyone except me Blue.

KultsiKN: Yes, the color of your name did.

pixelmeow: It was blue like my writing.

AGplusone: Blue = good guys; while I'm Red = Enemy.

pixelmeow: hey, I'm red...

SimonMycroftxxx: Uh oh, i'm red...

KultsiKN: No, Silver, you're green.

KultsiKN: Nice shade.

SimonMycroftxxx: Been a while since anyone said that to DtY! <duck>

SimonMycroftxxx: Quack.

AGplusone: So back to Marquis Howe ... [the beautiful color of dead presidents] ... how would Howe ever be a marquis except by accident of birth.

SimonMycroftxxx: How would any marquis?

Randyjj55: Don't be embarrassed, Pix....

SimonMycroftxxx: Or even, Howe would any marquis? <groan>

AGplusone: As Doc MacRae said, the "non-profit" running Mars runs on "you kiss me," and we graft together.

AGplusone: After all we all put in a full days work for the company, that leaves 18 hours a day for us!

AGplusone: Mars rotation? 24 earth hours or close enough?

KultsiKN: From NOTB -- fairly close?

SimonMycroftxxx: Could google for it...

pixelmeow: sorry, girls running around.

AGplusone: So at least we're down to the 6 hour day (another great advance for mankind) ... whatever happened to the eight hour day.

AGplusone: I liked the "girls are dyeing their hair in stripes" passage.

SimonMycroftxxx: According to http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/kids_space/period.html,

SimonMycroftxxx: it takes 24.6229 hours

pixelmeow: back in a few...

pixelmeow has left the room.

AGplusone: Close enough.

SimonMycroftxxx: cya

SimonMycroftxxx: pix

AGplusone: I've been looking for an old illustration showing the "canals" ...

DavidWrightSr: They were in the front cover of the original edition that I read way back then, but haven't seen them since

SimonMycroftxxx: No illustrations in my Pan paperback.

KultsiKN: Not even wegrokit?

SimonMycroftxxx: (Except the cover - looks like colonials dusting a waterseeker) You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

KultsiKN: WB, DWS

SimonMycroftxxx: There are some v. simple drawings at http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf057/sf057a05.htm

DavidWrightSr: Weird things are going on

SimonMycroftxxx: wb!

KultsiKN: Uhhh.. light yellow this time!

DavidWrightSr: Interesting Simon has changed color to a light grey.

DavidWrightSr: And I am showing up as yellow to you?

SimonMycroftxxx: Yup

Randyjj55: There is a picture of Lowell's Drawings of the canals at http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/canals.html

AGplusone: I recognize some of the names. That Lowell map is helpful, and I have a hunch that, with some of the canals named, that was what I dimly recall from the original flys of the hardbound.

AGplusone: That's even better.

AGplusone: When the two boys travel, I sort of want to follow along on the Map.

Randyjj55: Yes, that's the fun thing about a "fictional" or author's universe - seeing the pictures in your mind and converting/mapping them to the "real" world.

Randyjj55: Are you getting hit with weather out there David? Wx map looks like CA is taking some.

DavidWrightSr: I don't recognize any of the names on the map, but then it's very hard to read.

AGplusone: Hasn't gotten down here yet, but up in San Francisco this week, Bill tells me everyone was looking like a drowned rat.

SimonMycroftxxx: Bill P?

AGplusone: It's just overcast. We're supposed to get whatever we get this weekend, tho. Yes, Bill P

Randyjj55: Yes, those mars geographers are a short sighted lot...

SimonMycroftxxx: <np> Areographers </np>?

SimonMycroftxxx: ;-)

AGplusone: Areograhy

AGplusone: p

SimonMycroftxxx: Anyone else intending to make it?

AGplusone: We had some comment that the plot in Red Planet is rather simple minded Thursday, anyone care to comment on that.

Randyjj55: Anyone ever consider the last question of the book? What becomes of Willis?

pixelmeow has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: (here?)

pixelmeow: back.

AGplusone: Not lately, randy

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi!

AGplusone: Don't know, Simon. 'spect so

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: had a couple ask directions, etc.

Randyjj55: Somehow I got the impression that having a bouncer for a pet was rather rare. So, would Willis be a Valentine in reverse?

SimonMycroftxxx: Also -- what relation are the Martians in RP to those in SiaSL?

SimonMycroftxxx: (Synchronicity?)

AGplusone: I think they meld in nicely ...

Randyjj55: The Police?

SimonMycroftxxx: De do do do, de da da da...

DavidWrightSr: On the surface, they appear to be the same, nymphs, martians, old ones, other world etc

AGplusone: But, you know, we never really 'see" Martians in SiaSL. Just Michael's perceptions of them ...

Randyjj55: Maybe just a slight variation between the two worlds - like world without a "J".

KultsiKN has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: But the description of the Martian adults in RP does not match with SiaSL...

AGplusone: like the view that Jim gets from Willis' memory, likely distorted.

KultsiKN: DUH!

DavidWrightSr: True, but Heinlein relied a lot on us filling in the gaps and it seems natural to assume that they are the same

AGplusone: What description?

pixelmeow: get booted?

KultsiKN: Yup.

SimonMycroftxxx: Can't remember precise words...

DavidWrightSr: or similar

SimonMycroftxxx: In RP, adults are described as roughly manlike, tall, angular...

AGplusone: fer example: where exactly in SiaSL are they really described? We get recollections of them.

Randyjj55: I thought there was a brief description of one "sailing" into the passage where the Martian met up with the Xenophobe.

SimonMycroftxxx: In SiaSL, are described as sort of Terrestrial (Arial?) centipedes crossed with busses...

SimonMycroftxxx: There are descriptions of the Martian version of "Love" compared with Earth.

AGplusone: Tripod legs, tripod hands, really tall ... except when they withdraw . . . then they look like a ball with the hand flaps coverig everything except the backbone.

SimonMycroftxxx: (in SiaSL)

Randyjj55: I have to finish getting my Heinlein all crossreferenced and linked together in text files....

DavidWrightSr: That was going to be my retirement project, (If I am ever able to retire) :-)

AGplusone: Gekko, for exampl, is nine feet tall I think.

Randyjj55: This is why we need a searchable CD or set of files. I'm about half done with my "package".

DavidWrightSr: Yep. that's it exactly.

AGplusone: Has three eyes ... has to move Jim about so all three eyes can see him. Liquid eyes.

TreetopAngelRN2 has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi E!

pixelmeow: hey, E!!!

KultsiKN: Hi, E!

AGplusone: Hi, E! I think we'll be putting something like that together soon Randy.

TreetopAngelRN2: <mumble> Morning!

AGplusone: for research if nothing else.

Randyjj55: Notice that on page 34 there is also a description of a "disappearance" apparently caused by the martian, same as described in SiaSL.

pixelmeow: No, it's Evening

AGplusone: Pretty nearly same.

SimonMycroftxxx: (To E!) COFFEE.

KultsiKN: No, it's Very Early Morning.

AGplusone: Medical officer ...

TreetopAngelRN2: Lots o coffee

pixelmeow: here you go. Watch out, it's hot...

TreetopAngelRN2: tanks!

Randyjj55: I guess it's all a matter of perspective .... time is what it is when you look out the window...

SimonMycroftxxx: Na zdravoye. (sp?)

AGplusone: But there was nothing about the colonists offending the Martians so much they "withdrew" ....

Randyjj55: Tanks? That's a lot of coffee....

TreetopAngelRN2: just woke up, need lots

Randyjj55: Coming off shift or going on?

SimonMycroftxxx: COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE

SimonMycroftxxx: ;-)

TreetopAngelRN2: Going on soon

Randyjj55: Spam Spam Spam Spam ..........

pixelmeow: Randy, I *told* you about the keyboards!@!!!!

pixelmeow: I'll make *you* clean them!!!

KultsiKN: Finland, Finland,Finland...

SimonMycroftxxx: Who let those Vikings in?

Randyjj55: Sorry! I'll up the board to 1000 times ......

pixelmeow: :-P all of you.

Randyjj55: I will not annoy the cat ....

AGplusone: I always wanted a "singing sword" ... speaking of which, there's one in Operation Luna.

pixelmeow: yeah?

TreetopAngelRN2: O:-)

AGplusone: Yeah. Forged by a Viking dwarf blacksmith.

Randyjj55: Almost looks like a little nurse's cap E. Of course if I used that smiley, it would indicate a hole in my head.

TreetopAngelRN2: Looks like Pixel is the proud owner of the "Lord Darcy."

pixelmeow: Hard to imagine a Dwarf Viking...

Randyjj55: Kind of like Jumbo Shrimp....

pixelmeow: Yeah!

TreetopAngelRN2: KEYBOARD!

AGplusone: I always wanted to know whether the 'dwarfs' were the original inhabitants ... or captured Finns.

Copycat669 has entered the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: mumbleSandi Toksvigmumble

Copycat669: hi all! I'm back!

pixelmeow: and now I have grape juice in my nose...

pixelmeow: thanks, E!!!

pixelmeow: Hi

pixelmeow: !

Randyjj55: Well, at least it won't leave a stain ....

AGplusone: yo, CC

pixelmeow: but it *hurts*...

Copycat669: Gee, Pix, lemme guess who your favorite character is? :-)

AGplusone: Concord grape juice does

KultsiKN: Hia, CC!

pixelmeow: no idea!

Copycat669: hi all!

pixelmeow: Once again I don't know everyone..

AGplusone: I always figured Pix would be attracted to Petronius Arbiter

pixelmeow: I LOVE HIM!!!

AGplusone: but then I forget Pixel was a Tom

Randyjj55: Looks like we're about to be able to have all the people we need for a musical - Cats!

pixelmeow: I'm the white cat.

pixelmeow: The one in the front. ;-)

SimonMycroftxxx: CC?

SimonMycroftxxx: (Hiya)

KultsiKN: Nah, you're blond :-P

pixelmeow: SO!!!

Copycat669: So...what are we chatting about?

AGplusone: blonde

pixelmeow: Red Planet.

Copycat669: Ah. Ok. More of last night's chatting..

Randyjj55: But, how can a blonde be a Red-head planet?

TreetopAngelRN2: it turned goofy as soon as I got here.

KultsiKN: Blonde, with the French fem ending.

pixelmeow: well, what'd you expect???

TreetopAngelRN2: Bread and Circuses

Randyjj55: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!

pixelmeow: :-D

SimonMycroftxxx: <Mickey> "I DIDN'T SAY SHE WAS CHEATING ON ME WITH DONALD..."

pixelmeow: You are gonna *get* it.

TreetopAngelRN2: Too early for MP, can't think fast enough

SimonMycroftxxx: (Re E!)

TreetopAngelRN2: LOL...got it....finally

Randyjj55: There's always hope!

pixelmeow: So far, we have the two davids, E, kultsi, and that's all I *know*.

pixelmeow: Is that Randy Jost?

Randyjj55: Yes

SimonMycroftxxx: + me!

pixelmeow: and Simon "Jester"?

pixelmeow: or who?

SimonMycroftxxx: Yup. ;-)

pixelmeow: cool.

pixelmeow: So who is the copycat???

SimonMycroftxxx: :-)

AGplusone: And CC ... must introduce yourself, I suppose.

pixelmeow: I like knowing to whom I'm typing...

AGplusone: Tam from Yahoo Heinlein groups?

pixelmeow: so what did we decide about the Martians?

pixelmeow: Are they all related?

Randyjj55: Second cousins?

SimonMycroftxxx: Possibly via alternate universes?

pixelmeow: Something. It all seemed the same to *me*...

DavidWrightSr: Related, I think so, the same, Well, maybe. As I said he certainly used my previous reading of RP to fill in the gaps with when I read SIASL

TreetopAngelRN2: Gifford says they are the same Martians in SIASL.

Randyjj55: Quite possibly, but hard to tell due to a lack of detailed descriptions.

pixelmeow: yeah. KMurphy165 has entered the room.

pixelmeow: Hi@ KMurphy165: greetings, all

AGplusone: Yo, KMurphy.

SimonMycroftxxx: Howdy.

KultsiKN: Hi! KMurphy165: Long time no see um!

TreetopAngelRN2: Hello

pixelmeow: I don't know your moniker... KMurphy165: What are we talking about today?

SimonMycroftxxx: Red Planet

Randyjj55: Does this book seem to be an amalgamation of some of the elements of Space Cadet, MiaHM, SiaSL and Double Star?

SimonMycroftxxx: Umm... Yes and no?

Randyjj55: There's a definitive answer.

SimonMycroftxxx: Space cadet... young men progressing to maturity.

Randyjj55: We see Martians in SiaSL, Double Star and Between Planets.

SimonMycroftxxx: (also BP)

SimonMycroftxxx: (per RP)

DavidWrightSr: But they are all different in those three books or

Randyjj55: Actually, in Space Cadet, I was thinking about the episode on Venus, in misunderstanding of another culture by one character, with understanding growing in the other characters.

SimonMycroftxxx: MiaHM... rights for self determination?

TreetopAngelRN2: rebellion against overbearing authority

Copycat669: I imagined them as the SIASL martians.

DavidWrightSr: or at least so it seemed to me. In BP, they had pseudo-wings?, they were like tree trunks in DS and like what we have discussed in RP

pixelmeow: I agree with E.

pixelmeow: I saw much of it as just unreasonable authority of Howie

SimonMycroftxxx: That too.

pixelmeow: also the boys growing up...

pixelmeow: taking on responsibility...

SimonMycroftxxx: But what if the authority had been reasonable throughout?

pixelmeow: we wouldn't have had a story?

SimonMycroftxxx: Would they have had the right to self-determination?

TreetopAngelRN2: RAH teaching when authority should be questioned

SimonMycroftxxx: (I think so.)

pixelmeow: I think it took the push of the authority figure.

TreetopAngelRN2: Paternal Earth Authority over pubescent colonial life

AGplusone: Always thought all the 'authorities' and 'companies' and whatevers 'federations' were pretty childish, actually.

TreetopAngelRN2: I saw my parents that way while I was growing up, too!

Randyjj55: One should always be willing to question. That's how you learn and grow, but Authority doesn't like that. Often, (not always) because the only answer it has is "Because".

AGplusone: Howe for example acts like a petulant child. so does the Wart Hobart in MiaHM

AGplusone: Alvarez seems like a confused child most of the time

SimonMycroftxxx: Alvarez, ya.

AGplusone: Even the IBI "lieutenant" seems 'childish' in ways

AGplusone: in Between Planets which we read next. He's distracted easily.

SimonMycroftxxx: I thought Mort the Wart acted more like a negligent parent.

TreetopAngelRN2: that's because they are 'gimme' people and don't want to have to work for it

AGplusone: Marquis by birth, as we did discuss?

AGplusone: put in a full day ... then eighteen hours for ourselves.

SimonMycroftxxx: Not mentioned in the book?

AGplusone: Red Planet?

Randyjj55: Birth or decree, does it matter if it is not earned or recognized by others as being "right"?

SimonMycroftxxx: Surely like calling your kid "Duke" or "Earl"?

Randyjj55: or Duke of Earl

AGplusone: Howe is the nephew of the Chairman of the Board of the "Company"

AGplusone: sounds like born to the purple to me

SimonMycroftxxx: Dook dook dook dook of Earl...

TreetopAngelRN2: yes

Copycat669: i got the joke...

Copycat669: :-)

TreetopAngelRN2: they all have the same thing in common "When I say jump..."

AGplusone: Kept thinking about Virginia colony when I read Red Planet. the Howe's and the Pottles (Pot Holes)

AGplusone: look around for the 'slaves' to order around all the time

SimonMycroftxxx: Pot Holes? Virginia colony?

SimonMycroftxxx: Uh?

TreetopAngelRN2: Definitely

Randyjj55: Having the title is not the problem, nor is nepotism - The problem occurs when the person in the position of authority clearly shows thy are not fit to hold it, yet, there they are.

TreetopAngelRN2: It happens all the time

AGplusone: Well, what did they send to the colonies. Remittance men?

AGplusone: Some thrived. Most probably left early or starved.

AGplusone: How many did India chew up?

AGplusone: and spit out

SimonMycroftxxx: (Trying to think of a Roanoke pun)

AGplusone: not everyone came home with a bag of loot

AGplusone: When we had the Philippines, probably ditto ...

TreetopAngelRN2: many of them were killed outright as idiots often are

Randyjj55: Put down the pun and no one gets hurt .....

AGplusone: lots of get rich quick schemers

SimonMycroftxxx: Enough of the Croatoan theology

AGplusone: all those guys in "imports" on the "Pacific Rim"

KultsiKN: Do we take ten?

Randyjj55: Yes, theology can often be hard to swallow - it gets stuck in your croat ...

pixelmeow: I'm just lurking...

AGplusone: I think RAH used the last name Pottle with malice aforethought for that couple. "come dear!" zaaap! Now would be a good time. Until 45 past the hour?

AGplusone: Colonel, you have the Conn.

Randyjj55: Aye

TreetopAngelRN2: That's why you have the towel on your head, Pix!

Randyjj55: Arghhh

pixelmeow: Ahem. I like paper bags, thanks.

KultsiKN: Goody! Gonna do a fillup on me single malt!

TreetopAngelRN2: LOL!

Randyjj55: I've always wanted a small northeastern state,

AGplusone: Speaking of the New Orleans Saints ...

Randyjj55: Connecticut will do fine.

TreetopAngelRN2: what about the Saints?

AGplusone: Good coast line. Fine sheltered harbors. I hear Teach is operating well out of that area.

KultsiKN: They do go marchin' in!

pixelmeow: and where did *that* topic come from...

TreetopAngelRN2: LOL

TreetopAngelRN2: Pirates!!!!

AGplusone: paper bags ... back in the 'ain'ts' days

AGplusone: Well, Randy does have the Conn.

AGplusone: I'm below splicing the mainbrace in my cabin.

pixelmeow: <peers about looking lost>

TreetopAngelRN2: <brain beginning to churn on two cylinders>

AGplusone: afk on a main brace splice run

TreetopAngelRN2: don't worry Pix, I'm getting it....finally

SimonMycroftxxx: (Do that too often and you'll be looking lost in broad daylight!)

pixelmeow: then that explains why I be losing it...

Randyjj55: I'll have to go back to grading soon, but will hang around until I can pawn off Conn and Park Place, too.

pixelmeow: I do that a lot anyway...

pixelmeow: eh?

Randyjj55: Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

pixelmeow: does anyone in here remember that I am NATURALLY blonde?????

Randyjj55: Naturally!

TreetopAngelRN2: Yeah I miss your mind, too!

SimonMycroftxxx: Think ur the only 1? (giggle)

SimonMycroftxxx: (ahem)

pixelmeow: indeed.

pixelmeow: I'm just not functioning tonight...

TreetopAngelRN2: Thusrday night the cat stole my lighter, she still hasn't returned it...

Randyjj55: Well, if you see it roamin' around, shove it in a box and FedEx it back home where it belongs. It's not fit to be seen in public.

KultsiKN: I don't know about the 'natural blondes', but the checking is fun...

Randyjj55: That's getting to be quite a problem - cats sneaking out for a smoke.

pixelmeow: E, I'm opening a new box of keyboards, we're gonna need 'em

TreetopAngelRN2: most definitely

KultsiKN: Hope you've got a dozen.

Randyjj55: I hear Staples is having a sale.

pixelmeow: trucks down the road full of them, yes, I do.

TreetopAngelRN2: We've been getting them in by the pallet lately

pixelmeow: Got to,the way you people ruin them...

TreetopAngelRN2: and it's not Monday morning yet, that's my bad day for keyboards

KultsiKN: Speak only for yaself, tender kitten.

Randyjj55: I don't believe "I've" been ejecting fluids out of my facial orifices onto your keyboard. How can you say it's our fault.

pixelmeow: cause you made me do it!!!

TreetopAngelRN2: cuase you say punny things

KultsiKN: Phunny?

pixelmeow: that too...

TreetopAngelRN2: punny and funny KMurphy165: Duty calls, gots to go. Bye

AGplusone: "What are we doing off the coast of Conneticuit, Mr. Christain?" KMurphy165 has left the room.

Randyjj55: Sinking fast in the perfect storm if confusion.

KultsiKN: Bye... 2fast4me...

pixelmeow: k

pixelmeow: later!

TreetopAngelRN2: spying on cats smoking with stolen lighters

AGplusone: bye

Randyjj55: You'd think if those cats could get there own cigarettes, they'd buy there own lighters.

AGplusone: by rights sir you should put me in a long boat now ... so I can navigate to Australia ...

TreetopAngelRN2: I'm pretty sure she has nicked some smokes too!

AGplusone: but then you'd have to go to Pitcairn Island

Randyjj55: But, by lefts, we'll keep you in charge. I relinquish the helm, Mr. Silver.

TreetopAngelRN2: what's left at Pitcairn these days?

AGplusone: Darn! Hoisted again.

Randyjj55: On your own petard.

AGplusone: Not much I hear. About as bad as Tierra de Fuqua

AGplusone: No, on the flag hoist

AGplusone: instead of the Jolly Roger

TreetopAngelRN2: 15 minutes...

AGplusone: Do you all know how Willis came to be?

pixelmeow: No, how?

TreetopAngelRN2: do you mean how Jim found him?

Randyjj55: Well, when the mommy martian and the daddy martian love each other very much ....

TreetopAngelRN2: LOL

Copycat669: hehehehehe

AGplusone: Vague story from various sources: Robert had one of those round top wire tape recorders. Supposedly left it on one day by accident.

Copycat669: how exactly do mommy martians and daddy martians love each other?

pixelmeow: ewwww

AGplusone: Six ways from the middle ...

pixelmeow: grooooossss

KultsiKN: LOL

TreetopAngelRN2: and he got a great story out of it

AGplusone: Found himself with a recording of some couple hours of social conversation ... gossip no doubt, etc.

AGplusone: And there you have it: Willis was born!

TreetopAngelRN2: just like you don't say anything you don't want repeated around toddlers

Copycat669: and that's where the idea came from ? Oh I SEE!

TreetopAngelRN2: Cool!

TreetopAngelRN2: 10

Randyjj55: Well, it's clear from the story that Willis is more than just a fuzzy parrot. His abilities to get around and adapt to the situation imply that he is operating on more than instinct. More like a child, which is what he is.

AGplusone: If you ever saw one of those recorders on their little stand, you might think it looks a little like R2D2, early model.

AGplusone: On stalks of course.

KultsiKN: Wire recorders? I fixed one for a friend.

SimonMycroftxxx: R2D2 in stilletoes? (Boggle)

Randyjj55: And why does he want to listen to a wire singing?

AGplusone: These were about the size of hemispherical basketballs

TreetopAngelRN2: never seen one!

AGplusone: Kind of lumpy looking. Not exact hemis, but close.

AGplusone: About 1959 I worked in an office where we had about 100 typists just clattering away with them.

TreetopAngelRN2: ah, '59, I don't remember it well

AGplusone: That was back when the typewriters were made of stone.

TreetopAngelRN2: LOL

Randyjj55: And liquid paper was a hammer?

AGplusone: And a cold chisel

KultsiKN: So cold it froze your fingers

SimonMycroftxxx: BTW: CC - Colin Campbell?

pixelmeow: ya think?

SimonMycroftxxx: CC? Wassay?

AGplusone: When this was written basketballs still had leather stitching in the center, like footballs. Interesting bounces if you dribbled it on the wrong side.

TreetopAngelRN2: hmmm

TreetopAngelRN2: 5

pixelmeow: 5 what?

AGplusone: John Wooden was playing basketball, not the kindly elderly gentleman they trot out to give awards.

TreetopAngelRN2: minutes to lift off

Randyjj55: Looks like an E countdown.

pixelmeow: ah. :-(

pixelmeow: and I'm sitting here falling asleep...

AGplusone: Maybe she's getting ready like Kramdon to send us to the Moon.

TreetopAngelRN2: the time when my butt leaves the chair and I run around like a madwoman then go to work

KultsiKN: With Dave telling a yarn? Falling asleep?

AGplusone: Dave is falling asleep

TreetopAngelRN2: It's peaceful on the lanai

KultsiKN: Nope. Pixel.

TreetopAngelRN2: I have to go guys and gals...have fun!

SimonMycroftxxx: CYA!

Randyjj55: Have a good shift/

AGplusone: bye E

TreetopAngelRN2: Good Night!

TreetopAngelRN2 has left the room.

KultsiKN: E! That was 5 secs, not 5 mins! Bye , E!

AGplusone: Ever notice one thing about the juvenile revolution stories?

Randyjj55: Just one?

SimonMycroftxxx: Not juvenile?

AGplusone: Always a deus ex machina at the end ... which makes MiaHM a juvenile too.

SimonMycroftxxx: At the end?

Randyjj55: I guess that technically, MiaHM would be a machina ex machina

SimonMycroftxxx: Surely the Deus ex'ed the machina fairly early on?

SimonMycroftxxx: Or do you mean Mike's exit?

AGplusone: Had occasion to read that short story ... about revolution: the one with the Barkley Free Company or whatever it was called ....

Randyjj55: And it's a good thing that the computer was not named Jack.

AGplusone: but the revolution is won by DEM ... whether it exists or not earlier.

AGplusone: won quick

Randyjj55: Otherwise, we'd have a Jack ex machina

AGplusone: The "Stone Pillow" precursor ... "the Poles had to wait 300 years" is one quote from it.

SimonMycroftxxx: Not sure I'd agree...

AGplusone: "Solution Unsatisfactory" is that the one? I'm trying to recall.

SimonMycroftxxx: The "war" is over relatively quickly...

SimonMycroftxxx: but there's a lot of preparation.

AGplusone: Without Mike, bye and bye we all get hungry.

SimonMycroftxxx: True.

SimonMycroftxxx: Still -

AGplusone: Without Geeko, same difference

SimonMycroftxxx: without little boy and fat boy, a lot of allied troops would have died in Japan.

AGplusone: Without Isaac Newton, etc., Between Planets goes on and on in the swamps forever

SimonMycroftxxx: (Suppose end of WWII could be DEM.)

AGplusone: No outside help for the Poles, no Deus Ex Machina either. 300 years until their brief country established in 1920

KultsiKN: If you spell out the 'D' as 'Devil'

AGplusone: could be

Copycat669 has left the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: Bye CC (whoever you were....)

AGplusone: So why does RAH soft peddle revolution for juveniles?

AGplusone: Dagleish, again?

SimonMycroftxxx: Does he?

Randyjj55: I'm not sure he does. People get killed, it's usually presented as a touch and go situation.

AGplusone: Yeah, lasting less the elder Bush's War.

Randyjj55: But real life is often like that - often it's hard to see what "trigger event" determines success or failure.

AGplusone: because Gekko comes in and swings that really loooong club didn't know one know about

Randyjj55: But the hints were there.

AGplusone: Yes, they were.

pixelmeow: my daughter has two friends in her room, playing...

Randyjj55: Yep! Of course, the only thing is to go see the chaplain. Of course, if one IS the chaplain, then one has a problem.

pixelmeow: it's loude on that side of the apt.

pixelmeow: loude???

pixelmeow: loud, that is.

pixelmeow: Much giggling and loud voices...

SimonMycroftxxx: Olde Englyshe, noe dowtte...

pixelmeow: they're playing dress up, and beauty queen, and all that...

AGplusone: And chaplains usually don't solve personal problems involving either randiness, Your RandyNess, or cats, dogs in the street.

pixelmeow: Are we early to "the chat"?

KultsiKN: Simon, there are 16,483 Kullervos in Finland

pixelmeow: and are just shooting the bull???

pixelmeow: That's a lotta Kultsis...

SimonMycroftxxx: [Applause]

AGplusone: No, we're starting strangely. Buffy was mentioned. I think it's called the buffiness curse.

pixelmeow: Ah.

Randyjj55: Well, that's why I am the atypical token Mormon Bishop.... Have to keep up appearances, dontcha know!

pixelmeow: eh? You're a Mormon Bishop???

SimonMycroftxxx: Don't tell E!

pixelmeow: Yeah!

AGplusone: Then Randy arrived bringing randiness and Kultsi arrived bringing Finnish blondes ...

SimonMycroftxxx: Seems to me that the awareness of self-awareness is not something you (or at least I) can easily demarcate.

DavidWrightSr: Wow Bad night for me. Thank God I'm getting DSL next week.

AGplusone: I've got it all so far ...

SimonMycroftxxx: I can say eg. 35 years ago I was not sentient.

AGplusone: Anyone want to break early. It's getting really dark out here. Cloudes upliften ...

SimonMycroftxxx: and ca. 32years ago I was.

KultsiKN: It's not gettin' light out there -- why break?

SimonMycroftxxx: Kultsi -- will it get light for you in the next 3 months? <eg>

AGplusone: Well, it's this storm front a-comin' in ... mit der flashers und loud bangs ...

Randyjj55: Actually, I need to get back to grading finals. Don't want to be doing this all weekend.

KultsiKN: sure -- at least outside, don't know about me.

AGplusone: sumbuddy named Thor, I tink ...

Randyjj55: Some drunk dwarf viking, no doubt.

AGplusone: Yeah, you bettcha!

KultsiKN: In der Winter? Donner und whatever.!

AGplusone: 'tousands and tousands' of dem ....

AGplusone: I marry 'em all. He must have smiled when he wrote that one.

KultsiKN: Blitzen!!! That's it!

SimonMycroftxxx: Pancer, dancer-

SimonMycroftxxx: PRancer, dancer-

AGplusone: New generation Kultsi. The reindeer are named Blair, and Kyle, and Marquis ...

AGplusone: Alt Donner und Blitzen are retired ... sent to the reindeer glue factory probably.

KultsiKN: The one ala C Bohn?

AGplusone: Corporate downsizing, you see.

AGplusone: Did Bohn write it?

KultsiKN: Rufo the Bad Programmer.

AGplusone: LOL

KultsiKN: Rudolph, the bad Programmer.... had a flaky code...

AGplusone: And if you ever read it //

Randyjj55: David, are you going to send a copy of your log to David Wright? He's been bounced a couple of times. I have one since I arrived, but don't know what came before then.

SimonMycroftxxx: and if you ever saw it, you might even say it blowed...

AGplusone: You would say it (trying to rhyme memory loss in it somehow) Bloat

KultsiKN: Like AG said, he's got it all.

DavidWrightSr: I've got it from the beginning, but have several gaps.

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Let me copy now, and mail it.

Randyjj55: Okay.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks.

Randyjj55: Well, gentlemen, I must be going. Need to change the tape in my VCR - recording "Taken" today and tomorrow, from the Sci-Fi channel since I haven't had time to watch it over the past few weeks. Do sveydanya!

AGplusone: Sent. We did decide to go with Btwn Planets on Jan 9 I think. Plus, we'll go with something about Magic Inc or Waldo or Hoag to take a break after that. Still cooking it up.

Randyjj55: I think the idea of incorporating the Anderson stories is a good one. They make a nice complement.

AGplusone: Lead off is already up on Btwn Planets ...

SimonMycroftxxx: Be seein' ya.

AGplusone: Like to see if we can track down Turtledove.

AGplusone: See ya, Simon

AGplusone: I always wanted to read that one of his too

Randyjj55: Two turtledoves? And a partridge in a pear tree!

AGplusone: After the first ... be a tired turtledove

DavidWrightSr: In the multiverse, there are an infinite number of Turtledoves O:-)

KultsiKN: LOL! Cya, Randy!

aggirlj has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi guys.

AGplusone: see ya, K, David, Ms. Pixel, Hi, Jane we just breaking up the circus.

aggirlj: Oh, well, sorry abouth that. Talk to you later.

SimonMycroftxxx: (Was sayin' night to Randy!)

KultsiKN: HI, AG minus some and plus some others!

aggirlj has left the room.

SimonMycroftxxx: Hi aggirlj!

SimonMycroftxxx: Was it something I said?

Randyjj55: CYA and CYA. Both are important things to do.

AGplusone: No, she understood me to tell her we were just finishing.

SimonMycroftxxx: Ah.

pixelmeow: so there are a few of us still here...

KultsiKN: David, you're a bully!

pixelmeow: I had a neighbor come in and we were talking...

pixelmeow: sorry...

AGplusone: I'm her big brother .... goes without saying.

SimonMycroftxxx: Looks like the chat is coming to an end...

SimonMycroftxxx: so...

KultsiKN: Just because I like your sis, it's no reason to act like that!

SimonMycroftxxx: night all!

DavidWrightSr: Guten Nacht

SimonMycroftxxx has left the room.

AGplusone: Guten Nacht from Neu Amsterdamn, Heer Wrigt

DavidWrightSr: Da!

DavidWrightSr: Good night Chet

KultsiKN: Nieuw Amsterdam? Ya moved?

DavidWrightSr: An old joke.

AGplusone: alternate universe. Pieter beat back the Brits

Final End of Discussion Log

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