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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 11-29-2001 9:00 P.M. EST

'Pretty Boys' in Heinlein

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


NOTICE OF MEETING

THE ROBERT A. HEINLEIN READING GROUP

Dates and times: Thursday, November 29, 2001, 9 PM to midnight, EST; and Saturday, December 1,2001, 5 to 8 PM, EST

[Note: this is three, NOT two weeks off, to avoid the American Thanksgiving Holiday.]

Chat Co-host:Denis Paradis [AIM screen name: "Paradis401"]

Place: On line in AIM chartroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"

See, the instructions on David Wright, Sr.'s page for downloading, installing and using AIM software, at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html

Theme:"Pretty Boys in Heinlein stories"

Readings:Initially, the novel _Double Star_, but I'd be prepared for several others. Additional suggested reading: Heinlein's forward to Theodore Sturgeon's _Godbody_ and the novel itself.

The next RAH-AIM chat will explore a theme dealing with characterization.

Consider this: frequently, on AFH and elsewhere, some have perceived a deficiency, an unrealism, perhaps, they suggest, in Robert Heinlein's portrayal of lead feminine characters. Here's a mild, early example of that criticism, from J. Lincoln Turner's A Guide Through the Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein (Gryphon Books, Brooklyn, NY, 1989, at 17): " ... the prototypical Heinlein heroine has red hair, a good figure, contralto voice and is highly intelligent and deadly in combat. She also falls totally in love with the hero and becomes beholden to his wishes (nothing like having super woman under your spell!). Heinlein, at least until his last period, tended to be a real Boy Scout. Although the heroine offers herself to him, unconditionally and because he has exhibited the finest sort of heroism to deserve her, he insists on marriage and everlasting fidelity. Under the circumstances, I think that even taking into consideration the time it was written in, this was rather quaint."

But consider this twist on the 'quaintness' of having Super Gal around: "I liked him, even on ten minutes acquaintance; he was the sort of big ugly-handsome galoot that women go for and men take orders from. He threaded his way gracefully through the room ... " and, then, contrast that description with this one: "Look at him. Ever see a rooster strutting through a barnyard? Sure, he's the right size and shape and his skull looks a good bit like the Chief but there is nothing behind it. He'll loose his nerve, blow his top, and give the whole thing away. He can't play the part; he's just a ham actor!"

Now, I ask you: which one turns out to be the Heinlein hero? The natural leader--and the original assessment is right on the button--he is one; or the fellow who first describes him for us, the "conceited rooster," who confirms that unflattering assessment only a few pages later when he tells us, his daddy used to tell him: "Larry, you are too damned pretty! If you don't get off your lazy duff and learn the business, you are going to spend fifteen years as a juvenile, under the mistaken impression that you are an actor then wind up selling candy in the lobby. Stupid and pretty are the two worst vices in show business and you're _both_."

Of course, this being a Heinlein novel, with the technique of ironic reversal constantly hanging in the background, the actor, the "Great Lorenzo," is the hero, the pretty boy, of the 1956 novel Double Star, which won Heinlein's first Hugo as best novel in 1957.

So there you have it, our theme, "Pretty Boys in Heinlein stories," and I think we'll find quite a few.

Among these, we might consider something else suggested by Denis Paradis, who will be our chat co-host and proposed this topic. Heinlein knew well and troubled himself in the last year of his life to write a forward for the posthumously published last novel of Theodore Sturgeon, _Godbody_ which some of us haven't read, I'm sure. The forward is illuminating, and perhaps I'll secure permission to reprint it in full here; but perhaps the novel Godbody itself may illuminate some thoughts on our theme. For those as I am who are not familiar with the Sturgeon novel, having three weeks' time before our meetings to consider reading it, I republish here, with the author's permission, a thoughtful and thought-provoking review of it:

from Novels by Sturgeon, reviewed by Eric Weeks, at

http://glinda.lrsm.upenn.edu/~weeks/if/tedrev.html

December 9, 1999

"Godbody" by Theodore Sturgeon, Donald I Fine Inc, 1986.

"This was Sturgeon's last book, published posthumously, which he spent over ten years working on. My impression is that he considered this his most important novel. The basic gist of the book is that love is important, that sex is an important way to express love (but not the only way), that through love (and sex) one can find religion, and that perhaps modern organized religion is not the proper way to find religion. The book is told in eight chapters, each chapter told from the perspective of a different character.

"Godbody, a man, has come to a small rural town. He is some sort of messiah, and the people he interacts with have their lives changed by him: they realize the important messages mentioned above. For two characters, who are happy, married, and in love, Godbody's messages makes their marriage even better. For several unhappy characters, they learn how they can be happier. There are also two enemies of Godbody, two older people who control the town through a quiet system of blackmail, who see Godbody as a threat to their interests. Willa Mayhew writes the newspaper's gossip column, and by threatening to reveal the secrets she knows, forces people to live according to her narrow-minded view of right and wrong. Andrew Merriweather is the town banker, who works with Willa to enforce his view of right and wrong, and make money in the process. These two characters are similar to characters seen in many other of Sturgeon's stories; they are extremely sexually repressed. In this book, it is clear that all of their evilness flows from this.

"That's my one main objection to this book, that being sexually repressed is seen as such an overriding flaw. This is Sturgeon's one gripe with organized religion, that it acts to repress us sexually (and this stifles love, even in a marriage, according to Sturgeon). This is a theme in a lot of Sturgeon's writing -- that the human race has some harmful ideas of right and wrong, when it comes to sexuality, and that much of these ideas comes from organized religion. (I should point out that he's not against religion in general; one of the characters in this book is a minister, who eventually turns against organized religion, but remains religious nonetheless.) The message of Godbody boils down to sex is love is religion; I am not sure I agree that sexually unpressed people are also automatically good people.

"Godbody is one of Sturgeon's best books in terms of characterization. Each chapter is told first-person from a different viewpoint, and this technique is handled exquisitely. It is hard in a 160 page novel to get to know eight characters well, and Sturgeon pulls it off. The one character we never really know well is Godbody, although perhaps he is known more through the effect he has on the other characters. However, unlike Some of Your Blood, this book isn't about characters (or plot) as much as it is about message. It's hard to say much else about this book, other than it's a fitting final work of Sturgeon. If you read this book, you will see some of Sturgeon's best characterization, and get the full impact of what Sturgeon feels about love and how important love is. For anyone who is a fan of Sturgeon's writing, this is a must-read 4 star book, more so than anything else he has written. Apart from that, I'd say it's a 3 star book that is perhaps a little overwhelmed by its message."

* * * * *

A further note of interest: Sturgeon's true name was Edward Hamilton Waldo. Haven't we seen at least two of those names applied to Heinlein characters? What about Waldo? Didn't he, at least, become in a manner of speaking, a "pretty boy"?

I'm looking forward to a long list of replies on this new topic of discussion and some good chats! See you all here, and in slightly less than three weeks.

  --
  David M. Silver
  http://www.heinleinsociety.org
  http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

I noted, concerning The Great Lorenzo:

>Of course, this being a Heinlein novel, with the technique of
>ironic reversal constantly hanging in the background, the actor,
>the "Great Lorenzo," is the hero, the pretty boy, of the 1956
>novel Double Star, which won Heinlein's first Hugo as best novel
>in 1957.
While thinking about that, consider these ramblings:

This is one of my 'brief' essays. Caveat lector. I have a few musings while the topic, "Pretty Boys in Heinlein stories," shapes itself in our minds:

'Pretty boy,' at least when applied by males to males, isn't a compliment, today. It, and like terms, are insults. Why is that?

In Robert A. Heinlein's first published work, the short story "Line-Line" (1939), an example appears of a certain Doctor Van RhineSmitt, "America's Handsomest University President," by which the author gives us the recognizable portrait of a talking head, fifty years before the term came into current usage, who in exchange for the promise by a person powerful in the insurance industry to contribute funds to build a swimming pool (teaching swimming at university level is conscious irony), does his best to discredit Pinero's insurance industry-destroying invention before the scientific community. That community, of course, is immediately disposed to follow the "good sense and persuasive personality" of this pretty spokesman.

Maybe the reason for this is as simple as the maxim: "Pretty is as pretty does," an assessment of bottom line result, or a realization that life's valid accomplishments often sullies perfect standards of physical appearance.

Heinlein did, however, write a story about a hero "handsome of face and figure." He wrote the 1963 Glory Road in an atypical form for him, the popular sword and sorcery fantasy, which enjoyed a burst of sustained popularity beginning in the early 1960s, as Professor J.R.R. Tolkein's romances gathered popularity and dungeons and dragons games grew from mere fad to rave among collegiate and other young readers of science-fiction.

An interlude is necessary here. The sword and sorcery form follow literary conventions going all the way back to the eleventh and twelfth centuries - the chivalric ideals of the upper classes, a social experiment introduced in the southwest of medieval France by a royal bride, Countess Marie of Champagne, the daughter of Louis VII of France and his then bride, Eleanor of Aquitane, as she is called in the English histories, or even farther back into mythic history, involving godlike beings.

These social notions of late medieval French aristocracy portrayed heroes as they fain would have them be, not as the butchers and cutthroats and conniving schemers actual chronicles of the time reveal. They were portrayed in romances really written as propaganda to convert her court and others by Countess Marie's own bard, Crétien de Troyes, the best known of old French poets and author of those Arthurian romances, reconstituted from the oral Keltic Welsh and Breton myth, that have survived, stories of Gawain, Yvain, Erec, Lancelot, and Perceval.

As Marie's poet portrayed them, both noble men and women lived in conformity with the rules of courtesy, where truth was told, where generosity was open-handed, where the weak and innocent were protected by men who dedicated themselves to the cult of honor and the quest of spotless reputation. Honor and love combined to engage the attention of this aristocratic society; these were its religion in a far more real sense than that taught by the Church of the time. Perfection was attainable under this code: for example, Gawain was a perfect knight. So too was perfect love: the passionate love of Tristran for Iseut, of Lancelot for Guinevere, of Clingés for Fenice, all delighted the audience, even though some, if not all of these alliances, were irreconcilably immoral under the standards taught by the medieval Church.

The perfection sought, and in some cases achieved, by these heroes portrayed by Crétien was physical perfection as well as moral. E.g., from the description of Erec, the heroic knight of Erec et Enide: "Of all the knights that ever were there, never one received such praise; and he was so fair that nowhere in the world need one seek a fairer knight than he. He was very fair, brave, and courteous, though not yet twenty-five years of age."

This fair description of form and figure quickly becomes a norm of western literature of the age. See, e.g., Chaucer's description of the aspirant hero, the Squire in the Prologue of the Canterbury Tales: "With him ther was his sone, a young Squyer // A lovyere, and a lusty bacheler, // With lokkes crulle, as they were leyd in presse, // Of twenty yeer of age he was, I gesse." Still in training, he waits upon and accompanies his father, of course, who "was a verray, parfit, gentil knight," and is in great detail portrayed as a veteran hero, "At Alisaundre he was whan it was wonne; // Ful ofte tyme he hadde the bord bigonne // Aboven alle naciouns in Pruce. // . . ." and so on for fifteen more lines listing his campaign ribbons.

Heinlein wrote Glory Road, however, as a Cabellian satire, so let's see where that takes us.

Consider the case of the Gordon boy who learned to fight before he learned to read because his father, proud of two ancestors, hung the pretty names Evelyn and Cyril on him, two likely names for our pilgrims, the "perfect, gentile knight" and his son.

Is he "handsome of face and figure" as advertised for? That depends on whether Star's opinion "You are beautiful" outweighs evidence to the contrary such as: " ... I knew I was going home as soon as my face healed (little brown brother hadn't sterilized his bolo) ..." offset by "I was a hundred and ninety pounds of muscle and no fat" which enabled Evelyn Cyril (aka "Flash") Gordon to finish his high school "senior season with the California Central Valley secondary school record for yards gained and a broken nose." And a scholarship to a cow college with a football team that also grants engineering degrees, even to those who only "sweep the gym" and carry oblate spheroids on Saturday to delight the crowds, provided they complete successfully the course work.

Oscar's opinion is to the contrary. He cynically deems handsome men possibly hermaphrodites.

We've observed, in earlier chats, something significant about physical description in the juvenile novels: there isn't much. That lack makes the lead characters more empathetic to juvenile readers. Perhaps it was easier for adolescents to relate to "manly little chaps" such as Thomas Hughes' Tom Brown a century earlier, children weren't as exposed to cynicism, perhaps not; but by 1947, too many years of youthful comedians portraying the fop, the weakling, and the teacher's pet, had poisoned the 'fair of face and figure' as portrayed by handsome young actors such as Freddie Bartholomew (who played manly little Tom Brown in a movie made in the 1930s) for adolescent tastes. [I always hoped they'd drop him into that fire.]

Also, a non-descript character makes an important point to many adolescent readers -- appearance may not be that important, a point, which judging from the inordinate emphasis devoted to appearance in media directed at teens apparently from inception of the popular media, requires continued restatement. I can remember on the back of virtually ever comic book I saw from age five or so onward, during the 1940s, an advertisement for a brand of salve for boys that supposedly kept pimples off. If it wasn't, there would be ads to remove pimples or the dreaded "blackhead" with what looked like a miniature post-hole digger. That, by itself, was incentive enough to keep my face well-washed. Or there would appear the Charles Atlas ads - telling us how easy it would be to grow our bodies from 97-pound weaklings into bully-proof powerhouses surrounded by beautiful, loyal girlfriends, never fearing sand kicked in our faces.

I can only imagine how pervasive such advertisements were in girls' magazines -- real boys during the 1940s and 50s didn't even glance at them lest they be suspected of being hermaphrodites (and I was certain to insure at that age no one would dream of considering me less than a 'real boy'). But, consider in Heinlein's "Puddin'" stories how much time he devoted to her adolescent plumpness which, her mother keeps assuring her, she'll outgrow.

In contrast, I can think of only one mention in a Heinlein juvenile dealing with appearance of a male protagonist. When Max Jones in Starman Jones is being prepared by Sam Anderson to be smuggled aboard a starship as part of its crew, Anderson takes him to an artist who modifies his appearance to make him less the pretty young boy, less likely to attract attention.

So bearing in mind the difference in primary intended audience and approach between the juvenile and adult Heinlein stories, and noting the ironies so often present as satire or otherwise in the adult stories, what's going on when Heinlein does create and emphasizes a fair male appearance, generally, in the adult stories? Are there specific stories in which what may be occurring isn't the general derogatory purpose? E.g., what about Larry Smith? what about Oscar? what about Galahad, what about Valentine Michael Smith? Aren't all four of these portrayed as pretty boys? Why?

Any ideas? Do you note exceptions to what this 'short' essay suggests?

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

David--FWIW the university I attended in the late sixties had a swimming requirement. If you couldn't swim the length of the pool, you had to take a course. My daughter who graduated last year says her college had done away with the requirement several years ago--but they still teach swimming.

Jeanette--who remembers the 40's style suits issued--black with gathers at the bust. The men's building did not have swim suits in classes and I understand watching the scuba diving class heading toward the pool in full equipment was especially entertaining.


jeanette wrote:

>David--FWIW the university I attended in the late sixties had a swimming
>requirement.  If you couldn't swim the length of the pool, you had to
>take a course.  My daughter who graduated last year says her college had
>done away with the requirement several years ago--but they still teach
>swimming.
>
>Jeanette--who remembers the 40's style suits issued--black with gathers
>at the bust.  The men's building did not have swim suits in classes and
>I understand watching the scuba diving class heading toward the pool in
>full equipment was especially entertaining.
Indeed, many continue teach courses in swimming, bowling, fencing, and all sorts of physical activities; but isn't that all at least secondary to a university education? Swimming isn't quite necessary, unless of course the university is a 'trade school' devoted to sending its graduates 'down to the sea in ships' as Kings Point and Annapolis are?

I needed an odd unit to graduate from UCLA which was on a four unit per class quarter system then, since I brought three transfer units for something I picked up while in the Army, so I took one (1/2 unit) course in fencing, and one (1/2 unit) course in bowling; rather than another four unit academic course.

We both recognize, of course, the sacrifice of academic integrity by a university president for a swimming pool is irony, nevertheless. You and I would have hoped he'd have held out for a new wing to the library at least. Unless, of course, that university's only claim to excellence then was its athletic programs ... ;-)

  --
  David M. Silver
  http://www.heinleinsociety.org
  http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

"David M. Silver" wrote:
> 
>jeanette wrote:
> 
>> David--FWIW the university I attended in the late sixties had a swimming
>> requirement.  If you couldn't swim the length of the pool, you had to
>> take a course.  My daughter who graduated last year says her college had
>> done away with the requirement several years ago--but they still teach
>> swimming.
>>
>> Jeanette--who remembers the 40's style suits issued--black with gathers
>> at the bust.  The men's building did not have swim suits in classes and
>> I understand watching the scuba diving class heading toward the pool in
>> full equipment was especially entertaining.
> 
>Indeed, many continue teach courses in swimming, bowling, fencing, and all
>sorts of physical activities; but isn't that all at least secondary to a
>university education? Swimming isn't quite necessary, unless of course the
>university is a 'trade school' devoted to sending its graduates 'down to
>the sea in ships' as Kings Point and Annapolis are?
> 
>I needed an odd unit to graduate from UCLA which was on a four unit per
>class quarter system then, since I brought three transfer units for
>something I picked up while in the Army, so I took one (1/2 unit) course in
>fencing, and one (1/2 unit) course in bowling; rather than another four
>unit academic course.
> 
>We both recognize, of course, the sacrifice of academic integrity by a
>university president for a swimming pool is irony, nevertheless. You and I
>would have hoped he'd have held out for a new wing to the library at least.
>Unless, of course, that university's only claim to excellence then was its
>athletic programs ... ;-)
>  --
>  David M. Silver
The only thing I consider strange is that you seem to consider fencing a nonacademic or nonuniversal subject. Yea, even unto an "elective."

-- 
  >^,,^<
The more things change,
 the more they stay insane.
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

I wrote:

>we might consider something else suggested by Denis
>Paradis, who will be our chat co-host and proposed this topic.
>Heinlein knew well and troubled himself in the last year of his
>life to write a forward for the posthumously published last novel
>of Theodore Sturgeon, _Godbody_ which some of us haven't read,
>I'm sure. The forward is illuminating
And here it is, since I'm certain that to consider it for our purposes, educational, reprinting this part is fair use:

"The final novel by THEODORE STURGEON titled *Godbody* was published in 1986 with an Introduction by Robert A. Heinlein [an excerpt of which follows]:

"GODBODY - 
"The Last of the Wine." 
"And the best. 

"Sometimes (not often) the last work of an artist, published after his death,
is the capstone of his art, summing up what
he had been telling the world all his life. In writing *Godbody* Theodore
Sturgeon achieved his crowning statement. 

"Again and again for half a century he has given us one message. In *Godbody*
he tells us still again, and even more
emphatically, the same timeless message that runs through all his writings and
through all his living acts - a message
that was ancient before he was born but which he made his own, then spoke it
and sang it and shouted it and sometimes
scolded us with it: 

'"Love one another." 
Simple. Ancient. Difficult. 
Seldom attained. 

"Mark Twain said that the difference between the right word and almost the
right word was the difference between
lightning and a lightning bug. 

"Sturgeon did not deal in lightning bugs. 

"*Godbody* - Forget about art and enjoy it. 

"Some readers will feel that it is XXX-rated pornography. They will have
plenty to go on. Others will see it as a tender,
gentle love story. They'll be right. 

"Many will find it offensively coarse in language (people of my generation,
especially). It does contain every one of the
"seven words that must never be used on television," plus four or five more
that can't be used but never got on the
verboten list. 

"Others will see that Ted has always used the exact word - always "lightning,"
never "lightning bug." Those four-letter
shockers are essential. 

"Some will complain that *Godbody* is loaded with sex and violence.

"Others may answer that "Hamlet" ("Romeo and Juliet," the Old Testament, *Le
Morte d'Arthur*) is nothing but sex and
violence. 

"Some will denounce *Godbody* as baldly sacrilegious. They'll be right. 

"Some will see it as tenderly and beautifully reverent. And they will be
right. 

"Others will say, "Yes it's a great story. But why did he have to stick so
much nudity into it?" 

"I'll answer that one myself, since it is too late to ask Sturgeon. God must
love skin since he makes so much of it.
Covering it with cloth or leather or fur in the name of "decency" is a vice
thought up by dirty old men; don't blame it on
God. 

"Never mind what anyone says about this book. Read it, enjoy it, reread it,
give it to someone you love. It is our last love
letter from a man who loves all of us. Make the most of it today. Then keep it
for a day when you are downhearted and
need what it gives you. 

"And don't be afraid to love. 

"[Robert A. Heinlein - September, 1985] "
How that ties into the theme "pretty boys in Heinlein" is as mysterious to me as you, I think. But Denis thinks it does, so since he asked me to post the Godbody forward, I've done so.

How do you think it may? Anybody? Any Godbody fan out there?

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

agplusone@aol.com (David M. Silver) wrote in message news:<20011120112539.19255.00001470@mb-ch.aol.com>...
>I wrote:
> 
>> we might consider something else suggested by Denis
>>Paradis, who will be our chat co-host and proposed this topic.
>>Heinlein knew well and troubled himself in the last year of his
>>life to write a forward for the posthumously published last novel
>>of Theodore Sturgeon, _Godbody_ which some of us haven't read,
>>I'm sure. The forward is illuminating
> 
>And here it is, since I'm certain that to consider it for our purposes,
>educational, reprinting this part is fair use:
> 
>"The final novel by THEODORE STURGEON titled *Godbody* was published in 1986
>with an Introduction by Robert A.
>Heinlein [an excerpt of which follows]: 
>
>"GODBODY -
I'm sorry David - I should have made my comments clearer: In his Introduction to GODBODY, Robert described the science-fiction writers who met at his apartment in Philadelphia in 1944: "At my request Campbell brought Sturgeon there. My first impression of Sturgeon was that no male had any business being that pretty. He was a golden boy, one that caused comparisons with Michelangelo's David... He had a crown of golden curls, classic features and a sweet, permanent smile."

When I first read this I wondered to myself if Theodore Sturgeon might not have served as an inspiration for the character of Michael Valentine Smith in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND and/or Galahad in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE. Perhaps Mrs. Heinlein may be able to shed some light on this at our meeting.


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AGplusone: All Mac users have rubber ducks or somethin' on top their monitors ... so you can tell the difference.

Paradis401: One of these days I'll have to learn more about Mac

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AGplusone: mine arrived one day when I beta tested for Norton once time.

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AGplusone: Hi, Dave.

Paradis401: Sounds interesting.

AGplusone: remotely better than "Live free or die!" for a rubber duck

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Paradis401: I like Norton very much but my version 2000 is not compatible with Windows ME.

AGplusone: Hope they upgrade it quickly: Norton took forever when Mac went to OS 8 ... a lot of us wound up with Virex running instead.

DavidWrightSr: I'm running 98 at the moment, although I now have XP on alternate boot

AGplusone: Virex = MacAfee

Paradis401: I guess I'll have to get a new version for both ME and XP

DavidWrightSr: I may have to jump at a moment's notice. Storms appear to be moving in.

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AGplusone: I've been trying to use the mail merge feature in Word for labels ... for the first time.

AGplusone: Anyone use it?

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LadyS122: yes, but not mail in it

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AGplusone: haven't worked at it hard, but it isn't doing what it's supposed to yet

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AGplusone: Word document

LadyS122: Tony is here.. says he always had problems doing it

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LadyS122: Sorry about that.. haven't been in one of these chats for a long time. :-)

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AGplusone: [did I guess correctly?]

LadyS122: He is fine, Steph is alright as well.. so are the grandkids.. (I am the youngest grandma I know )

LadyS122: and yes you did

Paradis401: Pretty Boys is the subject.

AGplusone: Okay, gotcha!

LadyS122: ok.. I think I remember reading about that

LadyS122: I am Tony's wife.. not his daughter. :-)

AGplusone: yeah, but we're really early, unless I have a clock running an hour behind.

LadyS122: I have 7central

AGplusone: 5:09:56 PM PST

DavidWrightSr: Nope, we are early birds.

Paradis401: Something for the ladies. Yes. We're all early. Sellout crowd?

AGplusone: HopeSo

LadyS122: good.. I would go cram but I haven't gotten all the books organized yet, so the pretty boys are scattered around our library/guest room

LadyS122: I dunno.. I like some of the rougher cut gentlemen in the books. :-) Lazarus may be an ass (professional grade) most of thee time, but as the Heinlein women note, he is a loveable one. :-)

AGplusone: SAcademy: REally? I don't like him

LadyS122: actually.. I was doing some reading today and was wondering whether anyone knew if Heinlein ever mentioned basing characters (actions if not the whole character) on female pirates.

LadyS122: Lazarus has his moments..

AGplusone: which one Lady?

joelrmpls has entered the room.

Paradis401: Hazel Stone a Pirate of sorts?

AGplusone: Evening, Joel.

SAcademy: Hello, Joel.

joelrmpls: Am I here?

DavidWrightSr: You are in, Please click Bold

SAcademy: Pinch yourself and see.

LadyS122: Grace O'Malley.. her legend has a situation similar to Hazel in MiaHM.. where she goes leaping for a bad guy who is about to kill her father (father figure type in Hazel's situation)

joelrmpls: AApparently I am. Hi, all.

Paradis401: Hi. Joel

DavidWrightSr: Welcome

AGplusone: No, you're still in Minneapolis, but if one close your eyes and we clap our hands hard enough ...

LadyS122: hehehehe

joelrmpls: Sorry about the fonts; I'm on GAIM, rather than AIM, and the font stuff is a bit more complicated.

AGplusone: you close

SAcademy: Yes, how is the weather there?

SAcademy: Ten feet of snow?

DavidWrightSr: Actually, I am here, but I am not sure about all of the rest of you :-)

LadyS122: I know I am in bed dreaming about all this

joelrmpls: Thirties or so. Quite comfortable, for me. But I carry a fair amount of insulation. No more than four, five inches of snow in the metro area, although some outlying places got close to three feet.

Paradis401: Please God - don't send it to Michigan!

AGplusone: It even rained in southern California this morning ...

LadyS122: I have determined that the last 6 years of my life have been a dream, and I haven't woken up yet

DavidWrightSr: I interviewed with Control Data in the 70's. It was 8 degrees and a foot of snow.

joelrmpls: But I hear it never rains in Southern California . . .

LadyS122: but it pours

AGplusone: yeah, it snows (really)

AGplusone: in 1948 ...

LadyS122: my mom wasn't even alive yet. :-)

joelrmpls: Me, I like cold better than head. I can dress for heat, but even if I walked around naked -- a horrible thought -- I'd not be comfortable at 90 degrees, here.

AGplusone: LOL

AGplusone: I read about it in My Weekly Reader (from Cleveland). We had ten feet of snow that year.

joelrmpls: I just finished reworking the blizzard scene in the new book last week, and this reality is mild by comparison.

Paradis401: Title of your new book, Joel?

AGplusone: Good. Mail the proof off before it gets so much worse you're compelled to rewrite.

joelrmpls: Home Front. And yes, it went off to my agent last Friday.

SAcademy: Editors always change titles anyway.

Paradis401: Thanks. Hope it comes out soon.

joelrmpls: Now all I've got to do is finish up the rewrite of the new Guardians book, and I can start the new murder mystery, which I think/hope is going to be fun. And me, too -- although I haven't yet discussed pubdate with my editor.

AGplusone: What's the Guardians called ... haven't been to your site recently.

joelrmpls: Well, Ginny, we already changed the title -- and she agreed to this one. The title did need changing.

joelrmpls: Not Really the Prisoner of Zenda

SAcademy: We submitted The Brass Cannon and it turned into Harsh Mistress.

AGplusone: That business about the earrings, Ginny, I never knew that was based on Marines ... and never heard the story about WW 2. You know everytime you write one of those you force me to go buy a classic I read years ago.

AGplusone: Altho I can download it too

SAcademy: I am sorry. I don't mean to.

LadyS122: hate to be a pain, but to repeat. :-) the pirates name was Grace O'Malley..

AGplusone: Grace O'Malley!!!

SAcademy: Well, Jim backed me up

LadyS122: seemed like a scene in TMiaHM was similar to a reported event in O'Malley's life

LadyS122: a friend of mine is trying to find a pirate

joelrmpls: I had never heard of it, either -- and it's way cool.

AGplusone: referring to 'force' meant Joel makes me go buy one ...

LadyS122: pirate's name to use if she is able to join a club I am in

joelrmpls: :-)

AGplusone: I think my uncle will too ... if I write him. Haven't had a good reason to write in years.

joelrmpls: "*Ching!* Ring up another one, Jocko."

LadyS122: We all use the names of pirates (historical or fiction) and throw a party at a con I go to..

AGplusone: You ought to get a royalty from them.

joelrmpls: Although obviously, David, you don't get to buy your own copy of the murder mystery.

AGplusone: You better tell us about O'Malley or else ...

AGplusone: thank you ... 'waiting is' ...

LadyS122: what about O'Malley? Seems she proved her salt when she leaped through the air at someone about to stab her father in the back, similar to how Hazel flew through the air to save (Manny?)

AGplusone: Hazel Meade

AGplusone: never heard of her tho ...

AGplusone: until today

AGplusone: Errol Flynn obviously didn' meet her

LadyS122: if I recall she was a pirate/Irish Chieftain in the 1500s

Paradis401: Chieftainess?

AGplusone: [Where's the Con?]

AGplusone: [next thing you know I'll be talking about a RAH memorial blood drive at it.]

SAcademy: What con--Con-scious?

LadyS122: Magnum Opus Con in Atlanta.. We are the Dead Pirates (I hope no one is offended, most of the historical names were taken so a good friend of mine and I adopted the names of the Space pirate wanna-be's Lapis Lazuli and Lorelei Lee

LadyS122: Long

AGplusone: Wonderful! Dave, you can go meet her as Castor or Pollux ... one or 'tother.

LadyS122: heheheheehehehe

DavidWrightSr: I try to stay out of Atlanta as much as possible :-)

LadyS122: my friend and I even have matching costumes

AGplusone: Well, they have Bucconeer there ... sounds appropriate.

LadyS122: although due to phsyique problems, we opted for historical rather than literary..

DavidWrightSr: If they are the ones the twins wore at the dinner, I'll be there, but those werent pirate costumes :-)

AGplusone: Was Atlanta founded by Jean Lafite?

LadyS122: MOC is for fans to just have a good time for a few days twice a year.. hoping to one day be able to afford big guests again.

CHASGRAFT has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Charles. ltnc

DavidWrightSr: Atlanta was founded by a railroad stopping there, Originally called 'Terminus'

CHASGRAFT: Howdy. Can't stay too long; work coming up.

SAcademy: Easty to see why they changed the name.

AGplusone: nuther funny story ... the IAM was founded there, meeting secretly in a roundhouse, using quasi-Masonic ritual back then.

joelrmpls: Even easier to see why St. Paul MN changed its original name.

DavidWrightSr: Yep, didn't have much oomph

DavidWrightSr: What was that Joel?

joelrmpls: "Pig's Eye Landing"

LadyS122: hehhehehehehehehe

AGplusone: As in ... you'll be landing here again in a 'Pig's eye'?

joelrmpls: Pig's Eye only remains as the name of a particularly good, inexpensive, local beer.

AGplusone: Send some to Robert Crais. He'll have Elvis drinking it in his next book.

joelrmpls: A missionary priest wanted to get people to move there -- and he figured that getting folks to move to Pig's Eye Landing wasn't a good bet. So he up and changed the name.

AGplusone: We're all a little early, Charles. Topic: Pretty boys in RAH"

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of Crais. I never did hear from him about my invitation to join us. I did hear from Connie Willis, but she had trouble with AIM and never got back to me after that

AGplusone: Crais asked me to write him after he got back off his book tour, ending this week.

AGplusone: We got along nicely. Gave him a copy of THJ ...

joelrmpls: Never met him, but I've heard he's a nice guy.

AGplusone: I think his tour was cut short though ... he is, Joel. Very nice.

AGplusone: And quite elated. He'd sold his last non-Elvis to Bruce Willis.

AGplusone: But I really want to meet that black cat ...

AGplusone: if it's still around.

CHASGRAFT: Pretty boys. Galahad is the first one that comes to mind.....

SAcademy: That's what I said, too.

DavidWrightSr: Lorenzo claimed his father said that he was too pretty and stupid :-)

CHASGRAFT: True.

SAcademy: Denis, which character did you have in mind?

Paradis401: Ginny, don't you think Robert was the first Pretty Boy.? His early photos that you put in Grumbles.

AGplusone: Galahad first appears as a gender identification trick by RAH ... we think the two nurses are male and female but find out we're wrong about which is which ...

DavidWrightSr: Marie called Ted Bronson 'pretty', but she was only 8 :-)

Paradis401: My first thoughts about Pretty Boys was Robert's description of Sturgeon in Godbody and that reminded me of Mike the Martian.

LadyS122: his genes sure made pretty girls anyway. :-)

AGplusone: And of course, it's Ishtar who says he's 'pretty'

AGplusone: And Ishtar's a big girl.

SAcademy: Ted didn't continue pretty. He grew a beard and had his hair long.

AGplusone: Williamson introduced them when, during WW2, in about '45?

DavidWrightSr: I seem to recall Justin saying something about his 'beauty', but he said that in the presence of a 'pretty' guy and a girl, he would be looking at the girl.

AGplusone: But there's a photo of Ted, Ginny, on the website I dug that review of Godbody up from that shows him older, beard trimmed, and still very 'handsome' ...

AGplusone: if not pretty.

SAcademy: Well, maybe pretty is as pretty does.

CHASGRAFT: Edward G. Robinson often wondered how he could have done with more conventional looks.

Paradis401: Robert says it was Campbell who introduced him in Philly in 1944. And Robert said "Pretty".

AGplusone: Reason I wonder about the date, of course, is the fact that "Waldo" is very pretty at the end, and Sturgeon's name of course was Edward Hamilton Waldo, but "Waldo" was written earlier, iirc ... '41?

SAcademy: Yes, around 42.

SAcademy: It was written before R. went to work at NAES.

AGplusone: So my question is: how popular and well know was Sturgeon, er, Waldo, and how well know was his physical beauty?

Paradis401: Did you meet Ted in Philly too around that time, Ginny?

SAcademy: No, I met him much later on.

SAcademy: Some time in the 50's I think.

AGplusone: Because 'beauty' is something the original Waldo, in the book, definitely doesn't have ...

AGplusone: not angelic beauty anyway

SAcademy: I don't think that Robert knew Ted when he wrote Waldo

Paradis401: Do you know if Robert ever based any charter on Sturgeon, Ginny?

AGplusone: Bill says "Waldo" is also a suburb of Kansas City

Paradis401: character

SAcademy: I don't think R. used Ted as a character.

AGplusone: but 'pretty' seems to have something to do with character in the story "Waldo" doesn't it seem?

SAcademy: Maybe that's where the name came from.,

David.

AGplusone: very likely

SAcademy: Any other pretty ones, Denis?

AGplusone: We watch Waldo change from a very malign blimp, angry at everything, to the beautiful or pretty man at the end (or the beginning of the story) ...

DavidWrightSr: But the major change was internal.

Paradis401: Well somebody mentioned Gordon.

AGplusone: but dramatically manifested

AGplusone: Dickson, of course?

Paradis401: Glory Road with Star.

SAcademy: Was Scar Gordon a "poretty boy"?

DavidWrightSr: I was reminded of that ballet description later when I read in one of Robert's stories about Nijinsky.

AGplusone: yes ... and the description in "Man Who Sold ... " of potential ballets on the moon

SAcademy: Snowy's name is Nijinski.

CHASGRAFT: I alwasy pictured Gordon as the rugged type rather than pretty.

Paradis401: No not Gordon Dickson. Dickson reminded me of a hockey player I once knew.

AGplusone: as well as Holly's story in "Menace from the Earth"

CHASGRAFT: Though I believe Star cals him pretty at one point.

Paradis401: Yes she does.

AGplusone: 'handsome of face and figure' as advertised for

AGplusone: except for the scar and the broken nose ...

AGplusone: which distinguish him from the hermophidite in his mind anyway ...

Paradis401: Some of the characters in the juveniles are described as pretty/handsome by the heroines but I can't remember which.

SAcademy: Pee Wee?

Paradis401: Yeah, sounds right for one. In Podkayne, right?

ddavitt has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.

SAcademy: No, Have Space Suit--Will Travel.

ddavitt: Hi, had a bit of trouble there

Paradis401: Howdy Jane.

AGplusone: When you write one of your medieval-type Guardian fantasies, Joel, how do you describe the handsomeness or 'pretty' problem of a male's description? [hi, Jane!]

ddavitt: Had to change things around this week

SAcademy: Hello Jane. We started without you.

ddavitt: How dare you! :-):-)

ddavitt: What did I miss?

SAcademy: Someone send her a log.

AGplusone: How pretty are your 'perfect, gentle knights' is what I'm asking?

ddavitt: It's OK, I'll catch up

ddavitt: I see Karl as ruggedly handsome, not pretty

DavidWrightSr: Sent it

ddavitt: And getting lines and weatherbeaten as time goes by

AGplusone: And one of those later three characters has a face that could stop clocks ...

ddavitt: Thanks; it's all very new and techie on Netscape 6.2

Paradis401: The term handsome seems more appropriate but I suspect Robert used the word pretty to emphasize the classical beauty.

AGplusone: not even 'ugly-handsome' like Dak Broadbent

AGplusone: In Double Star, is Bonforte pretty (or handsome) ... ?

Paradis401: Handsome. I think.

joelrmpls: I try to avoid the issue, as much as I can, I think.

CHASGRAFT: Gotta run. Enjoyed it. Bye.

CHASGRAFT has left the room.

AGplusone: 'his skull's the same shape as the boss' as Jacques said ... I think he's classicly handsome, but older ...

AGplusone: romantic heroes are supposed to be pretty ... or handsome. Mike made himself so, deliberately

ddavitt: Is being pretty more of a handicap for a male or female character I wonder?

Paradis401: Heinlein himself was a very handsome man even at 70.. see Nebula Award photo from MidAmericon.

AGplusone: so he'd be more 'in character' with what the Rubes expected

ddavitt: Seems to me that it's how people form their judgement of you initially

ddavitt: In a book, we make our own mind up of course but we can see how the other characters react to someone overendowed with good looks

ddavitt: Not generally positive reaction from one's own sex...

AGplusone: And Heinlein is always using inversion in the adult novels ... but he does get to having pretty heroes ... eventually, e.g., Valentine Michael ... perhaps Oscar, despite the scar and broken nose.

Paradis401: Whether we like it or not. Looks mean a great deal in lots of areas. Jobs, promotions, etc.

ddavitt: Is a writer being a Black hat when they curse a character with beauty?

AGplusone: And Waldo grows pretty just as Valentine Michael does

AGplusone: both dealing with forms of 'grokking' ... ?

AGplusone: which change them?

AGplusone: the 'inner beauty' manifesting itself?

DavidWrightSr: Is the external change symbolic of the internal change as in Waldo?

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

Paradis401: Look how much being pretty (male or female) influences roles obtained in movies!

ddavitt: But isn't that giving beauty too much significance?

AGplusone: I think it is ... another metaphone, just as breaking down the rocks and fertilizing them is metaphore of Bill Leamer's growth in Farmer in the Sky

AGplusone: metaphore

ddavitt: Should it matter? or do we just have to accept that it does?

Paradis401: Maybe it gives it too much emphaseis Jane. But it's business and the way the world works - often.

AGplusone: but it fits the 'feeling' of the novel or story doesn't it ... an art?

ddavitt: Isn't Waldo's spiritual growth; his friends and happiness more important

AGplusone: Truth is beauty, beauty truth, that's all you ... etc.

ddavitt: Why does it need to be overlaid with physical characteristics as well?

Paradis401: I agree David. I think Robert said that many times.

LadyS122: why not...

AGplusone: Keats was a decent poet so long as he stayed away from Shelley

ddavitt: When I get old and wrinkly, am I less of a good person? I don't think so. See the example of Jubal's statue for confirmation

ddavitt: True beauty is all within

AGplusone: But Jubal sees the beauty of "She Who Was ..." as the artist intended us to see.

Paradis401: You are correct Jane. But it doesn't work that way. Unfortunately.

LadyS122: so we should hold it against people who are pretty on the outside?

DavidWrightSr: Got bumped

Paradis401: I think Ginny was and still is very beautiful. But she will disagree of course. Robert would agree.

DavidWrightSr: Lighting getting close. may have to drop. please save log from where i dropped and save in case I have to go

AGplusone: When Fraser in Magic Inc first goes to see the old witch ... doesn't he see the beauty in the old bag ... which later we find ourselves was considerable when she takes him to Hades?

DavidWrightSr: Lightning

ddavitt: Sorry; got called away

AGplusone: Okay. I have back up.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

ddavitt: No, we shouldn't judge at all; pretty people aren't to balme for it, any more than ugly people are

ddavitt: blame

Paradis401: Right. Jane

AGplusone: Whereas ... what about the 'inner' beauty of Mrs. Grew from Podkayne? Poddy thinks she sees it under the fat?

ddavitt: She saw the surface jolliness; Clark saw better

ddavitt: She was still not going deep enough

AGplusone: And Gildie shows lots of beauty, but doesn't turn out to be the older sister Poddy wants either.

AGplusone: She's got to go to work.

ddavitt: We are assuming that beauty is standard too but of course it's not

LadyS122: everything is relative, especially beauty

ddavitt: It varies wildly between societies, eras...

AGplusone: But Oscar does turn out to be 'fair of figure and face' and eventually, 'mind' as well, doesn't he?

ddavitt: I suppose some people have classic beauty that transcends that...but they are very rare

ddavitt: He's a hero; he can have his cake and eat it:-)

AGplusone: But that's life. We're talking about how Heinlein portrayed beauty.

ddavitt: It compensates for low life expectancy

AGplusone: His 'pretty boys'

AGplusone: Think of fat old Konski.

AGplusone: Or kettle belly

ddavitt: Mike deliberately got rid of his pretty face...

AGplusone: or Captain Eick?

AGplusone: or whatever his name was in "If this goes on ..."

LadyS122: I think Heinlein had two layers.. there were the people who were physically beautiful (Galahad) then there were the ones who exuded such beauty in their attitude that they were beautiful too, regardless of phsyical appearance

LadyS122: the woman inthe brothel that Lazarus worked at

ddavitt: Tamara when she was old?

ddavitt: Olga!

Paradis401: Like Tamara as a classic example.

LadyS122: Wanted to say Tamara.. but wasn't sure. :-)

AGplusone: Like "She Who Was ... " the statute by Rodin

ddavitt: Yes, ....the most beautiful of all to a blind man becasue of her voice and gentleness

LadyS122: been too long since I read the stuff

ddavitt: Sorry; I didn't say hi btw; I'm jane

Paradis401: Robert made some deep points with the Tamara character.

LadyS122: I am Helen (Tony's Wife and Stephanie's sort of stepmom.. too young to feel comfortable with the title.. but I don't mind bein a grandma to her kids )

ddavitt: She was sweet; shame she didn't appear much on screen

ddavitt: Hi Helen, say hello to the family for me

AGplusone: How 'beautiful' can Maureen be, at sixty-five plus, after what, 13?, kids, having her affairs with old man Stone?

ddavitt: Simmons?

ddavitt: Nitpick

LadyS122: Tony says hi back.. can't speak for Steph.. to many miles between us..

ddavitt: Thank you:-)

Paradis401: Maureen is forever beautiful.

AGplusone: Well, she is, but ...

ddavitt: We expect good looks even if we don't provide them ourselves; he was no oil painting either

AGplusone: the cosmetic techniques Mary Sperling uses aren't yet that far advanced, are they?

ddavitt: How much did Deety's appearance influence Zeb?

ddavitt: Lots, I'd say

AGplusone: Or vis-a-versa?

Paradis401: How about Zeb being Handsome/pretty?

AGplusone: "clean limbed fighting man from Virginia"

ddavitt: If she was little, skinny and plain, jake would have been erased by chapter 2

ddavitt: Ugly handsome galoot IIRC

AGplusone: Dak Broadbent, again?

AGplusone: Who is it, in "L'envoi" that Oscar looks like?

ddavitt: Georgette Heyer had a couple of types she used to use in rotation in her books; swarthy, dark of character, blond and rakish, small and appealing...she had labels for them. Zeb is one of those sort

ddavitt: Generic

ddavitt: Zeb

ddavitt: was Oscar

ddavitt: Star, Deety?

AGplusone: Well, then, Zeb's pretty too, right?

Paradis401: Like Colin Campbell?

ddavitt: Colin isn't pretty

LadyS122: I don't know if he was a pretty boy, but he had clothes-sense

ddavitt: lavender, cerise and lime jump suits?

AGplusone: And also carried a sword cane ...

ddavitt: heh

ddavitt: reminds me of Rufo commenting on oscar's clothes

ddavitt: Aloha shirt and lederhosen, something like that

LadyS122: if his complexion was dark enough they would work.. went to school with a guy with a heavenly olive complexion.. pale yellow was a good color for him

LadyS122: if he had sense he would have worn more pastels, but in Junior high, you can't expect a football jock to have much clothing sense. :-)

AGplusone: Galahad or Cyrano would probably wear lavender, cerise and lime too, given the chance.

SAcademy: Sleeping on keyboards isn't good for them. So I will say goodnight.

ddavitt: well, Colin is fairly dark skinned..but that's an old discussion

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: quite dark skinned

Paradis401: Night Ginny.

LadyS122: one I usually avoid...

ddavitt: Night Ginny; no leaves funny marks on your face.

AGplusone: G'nite Ginny

AGplusone: And so would the Squyre with his curly locks ...

AGplusone: along with his pointed shoes ...

joelrmpls: **Delurking* (Was called away to the phone....)

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Hope I wasn't being rude.

ddavitt: Hi there.

AGplusone: [interruption: that CIA type who got killed is what Oscar's career would have wound up as, absent Star]

AGplusone: Hi, JJ!

RMLWJ1 has entered the room.

JJ Brannon: Hmm, some familiar orthographies here.

ddavitt: Hi RML

RMLWJ1: Good evening, folks.

ddavitt: Shouldn't we also look at how people see themselves?

AGplusone: Topic is 'pretty boys in Heinlein' ... I can send a log ... thus far.

Paradis401: Someone once said that Mick Jagger would be good to portray Michael Valentine way back when. I thought it was funny. Who would you ladies pick for the role today?

ddavitt: Deety is described by Zeb

JJ Brannon: Thanks, I'll take you up on the offer.

AGplusone: Are you still on aol.com JJ?

ddavitt: As being beautiful but not knowing it

Bleys1959 has entered the room.

RMLWJ1: Hmm. David Bowie?

ddavitt: Becasue she has the regular features that praxiteles would like

JJ Brannon: Yep.

ddavitt: Was he a Grecian sculptor? Who made the statue come alive?

ddavitt: Or am i all confused ( not for the first time)

RMLWJ1: Yes.

AGplusone: RML, Bleys, I need your email addys for log if you wish

JJ Brannon: Galatea

JJ Brannon: was the statue.

RMLWJ1: Nike, also, as I recall.

ddavitt: Anyway, point is, she only gets that she's pretty when she comes face to face with her twin, libby

Paradis401: The part for Mick as Michael V fell through as did making the movie.

JJ Brannon: My Fair Lady

ddavitt: So; does a hero who knows they're good looking act diffently than one who doesn't know it but the rest of the world does

ddavitt: They must do; which option did H take?

Paradis401: I wonder.

JJ Brannon: Praxiteles was a real sculptor ca. 400 BC.

AGplusone: send the email addys IM if you wish, or we'll edit them out of the log, as you elect ...

ddavitt: Not many of his charcters are obsessed with their looks; Poddy maybe but that goes with the territory

ddavitt: teenage girl, first big adventure, flirting etc

JJ Brannon: Teenage girl, you mean.

AGplusone: Holly is a little concerned, so do is Puddin'

AGplusone: all teenage girls

ddavitt: But they're the same person in a way...

JJ Brannon: Same category,

DavidWrightSr: I need the addys too, if you are not already on my notification list

AGplusone: yes, developing along the way to Maureen Johnson

ddavitt: We have to stop this GMTAing:-)

RMLWJ1: lol

ddavitt: No way would they!

ddavitt: I do not feel they're akin at all....

ddavitt: maureen was definitely unique..

ddavitt: not sure in a good way either

JJ Brannon: RAH saud straight out that he resurrected Puddin'

JJ Brannon: as Podkayne.

ddavitt: I know...but he was wrong

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: Puddin and Poddy have big differences IMHO

DavidWrightSr: What does an author know? :-)

ddavitt: Holly is in between...and none are like Mo as a teenager

ddavitt: You said it...

JJ Brannon: The proper question is: "What did RAH know and

JJ Brannon: would you argue with him?"

Paradis401: Not me. I wouldn't dare argue with RAH. He was too often right.

ddavitt: Well, if we'd ever met I think it would have been a certainty once my vocal chords kicked in

ddavitt: Not many people I wouldn't argue with

ddavitt: ask AG:-)

Paradis401: Jane. Really! Are you tempting me?

ddavitt: It's what I'm good at

ddavitt:

Paradis401: :-D

ddavitt: Good smiley

AGplusone: I haven't kicked your vocal chords in even once, .... yet

Paradis401: Dp you think Brad Pitt or Ryan Phillippe would be pretty enough to play Michael V or Galahad?

ddavitt: Heh. I'm not in awe of you David as I would have been with Heinlein. My vocal chords would have been like Lorenzos' ; wild and free

LadyS122: Don't forget Jude Law.. I think he is pretty more than handsome

LadyS122: might be a good Galahad..

ddavitt: Get james marsters in there and I'll contribute money to fund it

Paradis401: Who is James Marsters?

LadyS122: oh yes... but he has to keep the fake accent... his California accent is just too plain. :-)

LadyS122: Spike on Buffy

Paradis401: Jude Law is a very good actor. Mature. I don't know about pretty.

ddavitt: Did you see the last 2 episodes, drowns in drool pool in front of TV

ddavitt: Just won online People poll for sexiest man and sexiest actor.

LadyS122: Jane: we don't get the episodes til Sunday, so only saw the one where Tara and Giles left...

ddavitt: Tabula Rasa

ddavitt: Oh well, I'll say no more

LadyS122: Jane: You know he will be making an appearance on Andromeda possibly next week..

ddavitt: But how come you missed Smashed?

ddavitt: Saturday at 7.00 pm:-)

ddavitt: Thanks for the heads up

LadyS122: Jane:that's alright.. I read the web pagbe so I know what's coming

ddavitt: You're not 2 weeks behind?

LadyS122: we see the Tuesday episode the following Sunday...

LadyS122: so we will see Amy come back this Sunday

ddavitt: So you should have seen Smashed last Sunday anbd Wrecked is this coming Sunday

LadyS122: I guess... Last Sunday was when Willow screwed up the memory loss spell

LadyS122: (we didn't watch it til last night.. we record it)

ddavitt: I can't work out how you've not seen Smashed but never mind

ddavitt: It is unbelievably steamy..I love dit

LadyS122: can we discuss this in private chat.. seems the room got quiet. :-)

ddavitt: But we are so off topic we will get shouted at any second now

ddavitt: GMTA

AGplusone: Any second

Paradis401: :-[

ddavitt: We'll be good

ddavitt: It's those darn casting threads; avoid them and we'll be fine

LadyS122: now about Jude Law.. he always struck me as being too pretty'

Bleys1959: Marsters as Galahad.... i can picture it

LadyS122: but I have only really seen him in Gattaca... so he may have filled out some

RMLWJ1: Not familiar with him, myself.

ddavitt: Buffy is slightly on topic as there is a huge cross over with Heinlein fans

AGplusone: bleeeh

AGplusone: I missed most of the musical episode

ddavitt: The cut version is awful; need to see the full one to get the impact

AGplusone: did you videotape it?

ddavitt: Yes

ddavitt: I can try and tape it for you

ddavitt: We don't have 2 VCR's but a friend does

JJ Brannon: Had to check EB on GBS -- Pygmalion.

AGplusone: Suggest, that as it's 5 til we break for cat watering until 5 after, Denis?

LadyS122: what about Pygmalion? I did a research paper on it (and how it compared to My Fair Lady)

ddavitt: sff buffy group has lots of people from the sff heinlein groups; John Tilden and his wife, Eli hestermann, daffydd, me...

Paradis401: Sounds good. I need a coffee.

AGplusone: okay, Buffy fans, carry on ...

LadyS122: I don't read the buffy group.. too many messages..

AGplusone: afk

JJ Brannon: Must break longer. The Galatea reference earlier.

LadyS122: I have to puyt my kids to bed.. not sure I'll be back in time...

LadyS122: will come back if I can.

AGplusone: we'll wait, JJ ... nice to see you again, please do Lady

JJ Brannon: Later.

RMLWJ1: Enjoyed the movie. The TV series kind of leaves me cold.

JJ Brannon has left the room.

AGplusone: And thanks for the blood in Philly, JJ

ddavitt: odd....

ddavitt: most people it's the other way round

AGplusone: afk again ....

LadyS122: if I come back in time.. someone please reinvite mee.. later.

Bleys1959: later, dudes....

Bleys1959 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: You can save a shortcut yourself. Click on File then Create Shortcut, then you can use it anytime to join

LadyS122: ok.. was trying to figure out how to do that. L(

LadyS122: thanks.. l8r

Paradis401: Thanks for that hint David. I needed that.

AGplusone: I'm having a terrible day. Went to make a G&T and found I was out of tonic ... am now sipping G over the rocks with bitters. Sort of a pink gin, what?

AGplusone: It being well past yardarm time

LadyS122 has left the room.

AGplusone: but I'll probably catch malaria now

Paradis401: =-O

RMLWJ1: Might try gin and soda with a chunk of lemon. Not bad at all.

ddavitt: Yes; angostura bitters...last for ever

AGplusone: understand you're moving to Kentucky, Denis, accdng to Ginny

Paradis401: Yes. Thank the lord!

joelrmpls: Arghhh.... rebooting; back shortly, I hope . . . .

joelrmpls has left the room.

AGplusone: angostura bitters not only last for ever but grow odd things in the bottom of the bottle

AGplusone: strange looking things ....

AGplusone: urk ...

RMLWJ1: Quick. Call Ft. Detrick.

ddavitt: Ours came with us from the Uk and probably predates our relationship

ddavitt: I haven't dared peer into it

Paradis401: Very emotional seeing Louisville after 40 years.

ddavitt: Hope it goes well

ddavitt: Moving is a good way to spring clean

AGplusone: Have to learn to say "yaw'll" however they spell that.

Paradis401: I know it will. Warmer too.

DavidWrightSr: Y'all

AGplusone: okay, if you say so, sir

RMLWJ1: If I ever move, I'll have to move a wood shop with lots of heavy machines. Not looking forward to it.

DavidWrightSr: Only one state between here and Kaintuck

ddavitt: Is the grass really blue?

ddavitt: It sounds so Oz like

AGplusone: lucky you have Tennessee, Dave ...

DavidWrightSr: I'm only 35 miles south of Chattanooga

Paradis401: Yes it is. And I hope to go visit the Heinlein Library in Butler some time.

ddavitt: I have 3000 + books...try explaining why you need that many to the removal men

ddavitt: and why you won't emigrate without them

RMLWJ1: Books? Books are another problem.

ddavitt: I entrusted my books to a boat on the Stlantic; very traumatic

ddavitt: they lost one box but thank heavens it had no books in it

AGplusone: I'm listening to news program on Shrub and the other knee-jerks on cloning ...

Paradis401: Except for my Heinlein collection and a few other favorites, I disposed of 8 tons of books/papersd when I went paperless to Hard Drive.

ddavitt: Excuse me while I have a palpitation

AGplusone: having failed to stiffle research with his "Solomonic" decree, he nows wants legislation to outlaw it.

Paradis401: Makes moving easier.

RMLWJ1: Couldn't do it. Too much stuff that would have to be scanned to go paperless.

ddavitt: Sic laz and Lor onto him

ddavitt: No pain, no gain Denis

ddavitt: Life isn't supposed to be eay

ddavitt: easy

Paradis401: I thought so too but I got it done... took two years.

ddavitt: I couldn't. just couldn't.

ddavitt: My books, mine!!!

ddavitt: Just got another 15 or so at the library sale this week and shoe horned them onto the shelves

RMLWJ1: There are autographed first editions I'll not part with. Others that are valuable in and of themselves, and still others that have sentimental value.

Paradis401: I had over 50,000 medical references. it was too hard to access in books.

RMLWJ1: Bingo.

ddavitt: Whew..that _is_ a lot

AGplusone: I think it's just as well Mrs. H went to sleep ... she was outraged a few months ago. Too many of her friends have Alzheimers.

RMLWJ1: I'd love to have my medical texts on hard drive, and updatelable for a reasonable fee.

ddavitt: Is this going to help research into a cure for that?

AGplusone: and Parkinsons

ddavitt: Reference books, yes, but not books for reading

Paradis401: My research is in blood banking and transfusion.

AGplusone: and probably others ... House passed a bill making it a ten year felony to conduct this research

RMLWJ1: Radiology, trauma, and emergency med.

Paradis401: Interesting!

ddavitt: No more than I'd expect from this administration

SageMerlin has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin' Alan

ddavitt: I'm going to disappear; pulled a lower back muscle and am in intermittent agony :-( Too much baby lifting

SageMerlin: Hey folks

Paradis401: Take care Jane. Thanks for coming.

ddavitt: Alan, I said i was going before you arrived; it's not personal:-)

AGplusone: You need a G&T jane

RMLWJ1: heh

RMLWJ1: Several.

SageMerlin: Yeah Right

RMLWJ1: And a couple of asprin.

SageMerlin: That;s what they all say

ddavitt: Well, i have many cans of tonic but I don't want to make you jealous

ddavitt: See you all soon

AGplusone: gin on rocks is nice

AGplusone: see you Jane

SageMerlin: Sounds liike my last sgirl friend catatonic

ddavitt: Gack..too strong

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: I ran out of tonic Alan

SageMerlin: Are you all having a party without me?

Paradis401: Yes!

SageMerlin: I just woke up...been drowsing

AGplusone: I'm listening to a debate on "human personhood" now ...

SageMerlin: ugh ak

AGplusone: let's get back to Heinlein before I phone in ...

AGplusone: we're back to cloning wars again

SageMerlin: What have I barged into tonight?

Paradis401: That's a mothful... personwho?

AGplusone: "Pretty boys in Heinlein" ... I like 'person or daughterhood"

SageMerlin: I leave you all alone for a few weeks and this is what you degenerate into?

Paradis401: My wife thought Mel Gibson in "Tim" would have made a good Michael V. She thought Mel was pretty then.

SageMerlin: Who's Mel Gibson?

SageMerlin: I don't get out much.

AGplusone: What was the one where Gibson had half his face disfigured?

Paradis401: He's an Aussie who smokes Playahs.

AGplusone: That was "Tim" wasn't it?

Paradis401: Yes Tim with Piper Laurie as a lover.

Paradis401: The half face was The Man Without a Face I think.

SageMerlin: I have an important virus warning for you all

Paradis401: Really?

AGplusone: [now the idiots are arguing about when the soul enters the body ... value of human 'personhood' ... cloning wars, all idiots!!!] I have to go turn channels.

DavidWrightSr: BadTrans?

SageMerlin: This is not public yet, but since I am a target for a lot of viruses I get it with them before most people.

SageMerlin: Watch out for any email that you get with NO message, NO subject heading, but an attachment.

SageMerlin: Do NOT download the attachments under any circumstances.

RMLWJ1: I got one today from 'Joann' at UTexas.

AGplusone: delete anything like that without opening

SageMerlin: I am getting these at the rate of two or three a day, and when I send my standard reply that we don't open random messages with attachments

SageMerlin: the email is always returned as undeliverable.

Paradis401: Good Advice. Always.

RMLWJ1: I just block sender.

AGplusone: I wouldn't even bother replying

SageMerlin: This one is very subtle because all of the other trojan horses (can the condom make sue?) have stupid titles or contents in the email

SageMerlin: Just thought I would pass it along. Expect to hear about it in three to five days.

SageMerlin: Brother Bill just arrived.

RMLWJ1: I routinely block mail senders I don't know that send attachments. Easier.

AGplusone: now that I think about it, I've been deleting those for about a week now ...

AGplusone: glad I have been

Paradis401: Some people must be awfully bored with their lives.

RMLWJ1: Agreed.

AGplusone: Well, apart from the fact they doubled the Jeopardy category prizes, anything exciting happening in anyone's lives?

RMLWJ1: Just the usual idiots arguing with telephone poles and trucks here.

Paradis401: Has anyone heard if they were going to film any other RAH books?

RMLWJ1: Not that I've heard.

AGplusone: There was one point I wonder what Alan would say to. What about the inner beauty in someone's mind being manifested in physical appearance, Alan, anything in your philosophy about that?

AGplusone: Such as Waldo's mind change being manifested in his outward appearance as a 'pretty boy'?

SageMerlin: It has been my unfortunate observation that what is inside is usually reflected on the outside.

AGplusone: from a malignant blimp ...

Paradis401: A mean person usually looks mean.

SageMerlin: Take the case of the plain woman who has a dazzling smile that turns your insides out.

SageMerlin: Once you see that smile, you will never see that person as plain again.

SageMerlin: We learn to interpret physical beauty on the basis of our reaction to the inner person

SageMerlin: I had some freinds once that ran a major modeling agency in NYC.

AGplusone: yes, such as the voices of all the whore in Rhysling tale, the one in Time Enough For Love

SageMerlin: Visiting them, I would get to see major fashion models in their off moments

SageMerlin: and what I learned from that is that it's all marketing

SageMerlin: those women are canvasses onto which we project our learned images of beauty.

AGplusone: but do we have to be blind poets to hear the beauty in all their voices?

SageMerlin: No, just close your eyes.

Paradis401: Maybe. It would help.

SageMerlin: Sometimes it helps a lot

SageMerlin: (I hope that wasn't too sexist

AGplusone: Oscar is "fair of face and figure" ... if we ignore his scarred face and broken nose ...

Paradis401: RAH could find beauty in many things. It shows in his books.

SageMerlin: In some spiritual circles, it is maintained that a beautiful person is receiving the karma from a well lived previous life.

Paradis401: That sounds good.

SageMerlin: Personally, I think that's hookum

Paradis401: Chinese philosophy.

SageMerlin: To me, its always handsome is as handsome does.

Paradis401: I agree.

SageMerlin: with apologies to Forest Gump

Paradis401: And Mel Gibson.

SageMerlin: Who?

Paradis401: Ha!

SageMerlin: Exactly

Paradis401: At the time Robert met Sturgeon, he was also in the company of Ron Hubbard, Asimov etc.

Paradis401: Perhaps that may have made Ted pretty or prettier. I don't know.

SageMerlin: God, can you imagine being in the same room with all of them at once.

Paradis401: It must have been quite an experience. It was for Robert.

Paradis401: I don't know if Sprague was handsome. Certainly Catherine was gorgeous.

DavidWrightSr: The picture I recall of Sprague showed him kind of tall and lanky IIRC

SageMerlin: You speak from superior intelligence sir. I only know them by their words.

Paradis401: Reminded me od Eva Gabor ... even at 80. I mean Catherine.

RMLWJ1: He had an interesting face.

Paradis401: What did RW Campbell look like?

AGplusone: I may have a photograph in a book of his letters

AGplusone: lemme see

Paradis401: Igli?

Paradis401: EG Robinson?

RMLWJ1: Peter Lorré?

Paradis401: I thought so. Maybe.

AGplusone: Can't find it, probably misfiled in my porn collection ... my vague recollection is typical long-faced Scot.

AGplusone: When I find it, I'll recall. Remind me.

DavidWrightSr: Fairly large guy as I recall

Paradis401: ElRon Hubbard looked rather impish... so he did not inspire pretty boy characters.

AGplusone: Was it Williamson who brought Spurgeon by, Denis?

AGplusone: What did Williamson look like?

Paradis401: Robert says it was Campbell.

OOCadre has entered the room.

AGplusone: I will resist the temptation to say that "if pretty is as pretty does" here's another guest to discuss Pretty Boys in Heinlein.

AGplusone: How's school, Cadre?

OOCadre: Going well

Paradis401: Who dat?

joelrmpls has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Hi there. Back.

AGplusone: Alan's son. Has none of Alan's objectionable characteristics. Hi, Joel.

Paradis401: :-P

AGplusone: [and I understand he's better looking too]

SageMerlin: Excuse me

SageMerlin: That was a low blow.

AGplusone: okay, you're excused

OOCadre: lol

SageMerlin: I got David in window and Asa in another and you're both ehere at the same time talking behind my back.`

joelrmpls: :-)

SageMerlin: Asa= oocadre

AGplusone: We were discussing the aspect of blind poets hearing beautiful voices ...

Paradis401: According to the Howard Clinic. It's in the genes.

SageMerlin: No, you were talking about a living poet who had his back turned at the time.

joelrmpls: And what do you call the first step in the process by which DNA replicates itself? That part where it splits?

AGplusone: I was thinking about the Daffy cartoon with his faithful companion "Decoy" ...

Paradis401: Splitsville.

joelrmpls: "Unzipping its genes."

AGplusone: mitosis?

joelrmpls: Sorry; it's been a lonnnnnnnnnng day.

SageMerlin: No, unzipping is the first step, way before this one

SageMerlin: Sorry

AGplusone: it's been a long time since biology 2, or adventures in fruitflies as we called it

Paradis401: RAH was quite a geneticist. And I think it crept into his books.

joelrmpls: Me, too. Tomorrow will be longer. Got to go to my kid's school and explain that they really mean their zero tolerance for violence policy.

joelrmpls: RAH had an immense store of obscure and nonobscure knowledge. Frustrating for us lesser mortals.

AGplusone: zero tolerance for zero IQs

AGplusone: makes everything decisionless

Paradis401: He was better at it than Isaac even though the latter wrote more about it.

joelrmpls: No, they tolerate that quite well. It's the zero IQs in the administrators I object to. (The kid who slapped my kid -- he wanted her seat on the bus -- is on his third suspension this year.)

AGplusone: if you have a rule for everything nothing will ever harm you and you'll never have to think or judge

SageMerlin: I think Issac was speaking more to the issue of social evolution

Paradis401: The genetics in RAH books is flawless.

joelrmpls: Yup; society has become rulebound. If a kid brings a Swiss Army knife in his/her pocket, that's grounds for explusion.

AGplusone: Boy Scout knife ... carried one from age eleven onward

joelrmpls: Slap a few kids around? You're just a child with extra needs.

OOCadre: that has ALWAYS been ground for expulsion

joelrmpls: Me, too. I never went to school without some sort of tool/knife on me. Never pulled it out for any except the obvious sorts of reasons, either.

OOCadre: they never do it though

SageMerlin: Right....in my family, a man without a knife on his person is considered undressed

AGplusone: it's a tool

AGplusone: good for opening more than cans of Budweiser too

joelrmpls: I habitually wear a knife on my belt. Other than the keyboard, it's the tool I use most during the day.

OOCadre: only one?

SageMerlin: I am told that the average Alaskan has at least four knives on his person at any given tie

AGplusone: me too ... my finger nails are always getting filthy

RMLWJ1: Been carrying a pocket knife of some sort since I was about seven.

SageMerlin: I carry three myself.

joelrmpls: or a letter needs opening, or a box of rice, or whatever . . . sure.

RMLWJ1: Plus a Leatherman, for several years now.

AGplusone: speaking of which, I need to put an edge on it again ... I've been negligent

joelrmpls: But I'm not going to fight that fight with the school -- I just want to make it clear that I (and my lawyer, if necessary) have a zero tolerance policy for assault.

AGplusone: Which one of the spices was the target?

joelrmpls: Whining Spice. the older.

AGplusone: How old the boy?

joelrmpls: 12; she's 11.

AGplusone: He's big enough to tell you'll break his arm next time

joelrmpls: In a saner world, that would be the right thing to do.

Paradis401: Parents today have a lot more to cope with than in my time. It's a pity. Is it the TV?

RMLWJ1: The handwringers would have you in gaol for life for that nowadays.

AGplusone: Glad mine's thirty-one.

SageMerlin: My son had the good sense never to tell me if had a problem at school

joelrmpls: In this one, upon the advice of my attorney, I'm not talking to the kid. Too risky, he says. If somebody needs talking to, beyond the school, he'll talk to the father.

SageMerlin: He told me once that one of his teachers was harassing him. I tore her a new orifice right in front of him

RMLWJ1: If my pop had gotten a call from school about my conduct, I'd still be eating standing up. If I'd lived.

OOCadre: yeah, well, she was a bitch

SageMerlin: Think it did something to his overall perception of teachers

AGplusone: My daughter scared the hell out of me one time. Talked a very large teenager into bashing someone good who was stupid enough to hit her.

joelrmpls: Yup. My kids know that I'm on the teachers' side when it comes to not getting schoolwork done, but I'm not interested in bureaucratic excuses for them being hit.

RMLWJ1: Good tactics, anyhow.

AGplusone: For a while we thought he had a concussion.

Paradis401: Your daughter sounds practical, David.

SageMerlin: Concussions are good for the soul

AGplusone: He never tried to hit her again and I was spared the necessity of killing him.

SageMerlin: Actually, her response was quite innovative

SageMerlin: That's the problem with fathers....we over-react

joelrmpls: Sounds it.

joelrmpls: Yup -- but that's our job.

SageMerlin: No one is going to kill the little bastard except for me

SageMerlin: Only he's bigger than I am these days

OOCadre: you already tried that, didn't work

joelrmpls: My father is/was a jerk, but God forbid if he'd ever heard of my hitting a littler kid.

AGplusone: exactly ...

AGplusone: I recall the boxing gloves.

SageMerlin: Excuse me, I never tried to kill you son.

AGplusone: My old man would give me lessons ...

SageMerlin: Proof: you're still alive

AGplusone: when either I pleased him or annoyed him.

joelrmpls: Mine's attitude was "nicht mit dien hendts". I found that less than useful.

SageMerlin: That was before kids all got martial arts training.

SageMerlin: I can't even lay a glove on mine

Paradis401: My mother did the spanking. With an iron skillet. And she was a wee little girl. But it worked wonders.

AGplusone: yeah, well, there's martial arts and there's fighting

SageMerlin: You're welcome to try him any time you want

AGplusone: I never fight

SageMerlin: Neither does he

AGplusone: gave that up when I gave up jumping out of perfectly good planes

SageMerlin: We raise our children by our own examples. If we don't stand up for them when they are young, they will never stand up form themselves later on in life.

RMLWJ1: When I was a kid, our bugaboo was great gf's razor strop.

joelrmpls: I hope the reverse is true. We'll see.

SageMerlin: Oye, do I remember my father's strop

RMLWJ1: Me too.

AGplusone: grandfather had one of those ... once I tore all the leaves off a hedge ....

SageMerlin: Funny thing was,,,,,he didn't own a straight razor

AGplusone: I was about four

RMLWJ1: The razors have been long gone, except for my cousin's. The strop is still around.

SageMerlin: David, you were NEVER four

AGplusone: it made a tremendous noise ...

AGplusone: and stung a little

AGplusone: and I never tore the leaves off a hedge again

AGplusone: neither did I see that strop again, either

AGplusone: although the time we killed his garter snake that he kept in the garden I heard about it ... I think he was too mad and realized it.

AGplusone: garter snakes eat bugs that eat tomato plants

AGplusone: Well, David ... anyone ... propose a topic for next meeting?

Paradis401: For Saturday?

SageMerlin: Parent-Child relationships in Heinlein

Paradis401: That sounds good Sage. Lots of meat there.

AGplusone: How 'bout "disciplining the superkid!"

SageMerlin: Make sure oocadre's not around for that one

AGplusone: why? he knows about flamethrowers

OOCadre: I have aikido until 8 my time,

LadyS122 has entered the room.

LadyS122: guess I am catching the tale end

SageMerlin: I am not sure what he knows, which wories mes

AGplusone: Okay ... topic's P-C relationships in Heinlein ... chat co-host is Sage

SageMerlin: Is this for Saturday (damn opened my big mouth again

AGplusone: lead off on afh by Sunday possible?

AGplusone: No, for two weeks from today and fwng sunday

SageMerlin: You got it sarge. Neat how you tripped me this time

SageMerlin: Ace, can you come into this one.

Paradis401: I really do think parent-child relationships in Heinlein is very good.

SageMerlin: Might be fun to have a father son team co lead

RMLWJ1: yeah.

Paradis401: Are we continuing with pretty boys on Saturday?

AGplusone: Okay, if you send you're leadoff to Dave Wright he can also e mail it out for those too forgettful to remember how to find AFH ... okay, David?

AGplusone: Sure, Denis

OOCadre: i already said I can't

AGplusone: your ...

SageMerlin: But you can on Saturday (we do these things twice)

joelrmpls: Ooops... bedtime. Long day tomorrow, too. Gnight, all....

RMLWJ1: night

Paradis401: Good night Joel.

SageMerlin: Well, I have to go back to work. I have some loans to lock in

AGplusone: G'nite Joel, Good luck with the pedagogues

AGplusone: best to Whinning spice

SageMerlin: Give hell, Joel

joelrmpls has left the room.

LadyS122: when will the logs be posted?

LadyS122: so I caan read the second hour

AGplusone: Dave usually gets it up tomorrow or Sat morning

LadyS122: ok.. thanks... wish it didn't take an hour to put the kids to bed, but that's life. :-) see y'all next time I have good timing

AGplusone: yes!

AGplusone: Do we have your Email, lady?

Paradis401: Please!

RMLWJ1: Be well, Lady.

AGplusone: Email it to dwrighsr@alltel.net

LadyS122: ok

AGplusone: so he can put it on the notice mailing list

LadyS122: ok. THanks

AGplusone: Anything else, anyone ....

AGplusone: M/adjourn

LadyS122: durned laptop.. still not used to the keyboard

LadyS122: heheheeheh

AGplusone: copy me, Lady so I have a backup

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

LadyS122: ok AGplusone@aol.com?

AGplusone: ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com

Paradis401: Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Hello, Denis.

LadyS122: ok...

AGplusone: note the period in the first addy ...

LadyS122: got it..

AGplusone: Hi, Bill was getting ready to adjourn ... you may take over if you wish ...

Paradis401: We seem to be winding up Bill. See you Saturday?

BPRAL22169: I will be there Saturday -- I got tied up here today.

AGplusone: yoikes, I'm outta gin too

BPRAL22169: Nope -- I'll save it up for Saturday.

AGplusone: Closing log

Paradis401: It was fun when the ladies were here.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: 8:19:20 PM PST

RMLWJ1: Night, then, all.

RMLWJ1: Be well.

AGplusone: sure was

AGplusone: night all

LadyS122: yeah.we kept discussing James Marsters. :-)

OOCadre: night

OOCadre: have a good evening

RMLWJ1: Thanks for the invite, David. enjoyed it muchly.

Paradis401: Night David. All.:-)

OOCadre has left the room.

LadyS122: I need to go to bed myself.. those kids get up awful early in the morning

LadyS122: (early to me... anyway)

SageMerlin has left the room.

LadyS122 has left the room.

Paradis401 has left the room.

RMLWJ1 has left the room.

AGplusone: David, I sent you a log. Should be in your mailbox.

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 11:22 P.M. EST


Final End Of Discussion Log

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The Heinlein Society was founded by Virginia Heinlein on behalf of her husband, science fiction author Robert Anson Heinlein, to "pay forward" the legacy of Robert A. Heinlein to future generations of "Heinlein's Children."