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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday 10-14-2000 5:00 EDT

Time Enough For Love #2

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Mtng Notice, 10/12 & 14/00 --TEFL

Date: 10/11/2000

Author: Richard A. Randall <rrandall@iname.com> "ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message news:39E33D96.5D049982@netcom.ca... >BPRAL22169 wrote:

>

>>I've been thinking more about the queue jumping incident. It occurs to me that

>>the convention versus law discussion taking place on this thread may be

>>related. In a society that depends on the rule of social conventions, flouting

>>those conventions is a much more serious threat to the social fabric than would

>>be ordinary scofflawry in our own. Perhaps the linestanders' reaction was not

>>over the top, but a responsible and measured reaction -- a kind of preventative

>>social surgery, conducted by responsible and far-seeing adults. Those are so

>>few and far between we may not be able instantly to recognize them in action.

>>Bill

>

>Well, as the dead man was a tourist, I can't see that removing him improved the

>society on Tertius much; he would have been a temporary annoyance at worst. No one

>found out why he wanted to get to the head of the queue, no one gave him a chance

>to apologise or instructed him on approved behaviour....if, in a society less well

>organised than an anarchy, there was such a standard in the first place.

>

>My basic reaction to this incident though was shock that someone would take away a

>life out of pique that they had been delayed in a queue for a few moments...and the

>subsequent trial would have been far more of a delay, making it even less of a

>logical action. In fact, I'm surprised there was a trial at all. It's a scary

>society and I wouldn't like it. YMMV.

The fact that:

A. a trial did take place (with witnesses and jurors, even), and

B. said trial actually took longer than ignoring the offence indicates that,

C. that person was not murdered "out of pique that they had been delayed in a queue", but rather that the offences (of selfish disregard and contra-survival disregard for consequences) were considered severe enough to require _immediate_ and severe punishment, probably "pour les encourages des autres" , in which case the residency of the man is irrelevant.

Remember the near-fate of a certain tourist in Luna who "assaulted" a female in TMiaHM? The one Mannie ended up judge on?

Such a society does, in fact, bother me a great deal (I don't really care for places where rudeness, intentional or even unthinking, is a capital offence, as my manners are often brusque and distracted, and interpreted as intentional rudeness.)

But it's not necessarily a violent one, or an evil one. Almost certainly much safer than "anarchy" would truly be, as true anarchs don't hold trials, they simply do what they feel should be done. I have much less to fear from a society with strict laws (even if enforced primarily by the populace, rather than officially appointed wielders of force) than a society with _no_ laws, where there is no hope that someone might attempt to require the same standards applied _for_ me as _against_ me.

--

Richard A. Randall

Purveyor of fine piranhakeets.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Mtng Notice, 10/12 & 14/00 --TEFL

Date: 10/14/2000

Author: DShields

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:49:24 -0400, "Richard A. Randall" wrote: <snip>

>The fact that:

>

>A. a trial did take place (with witnesses and jurors, even), and

>

IIRC, the trial was of the person who killed the queue-jumper, to determine if it was justified. The verdict was that it was; something along the lines of "Homicide in the Public Interest".

My initial, gut-level reaction to this was "right on - he deserved it", but that is one thing that laws and other accoutrements of society are good for: To help us hold our initial emotional reactions in check long enough for reason to tell us what we _should_ do, as opposed to what we _want_ to do. <snip>

Don

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Time Enough For Love

Date: 10/11/2000

Author: Richard A. Randall "AGplusone" wrote in message news:20001010015831.25711.00002761@ng-fi1.aol.com... <snip> >Perhaps more than merely plausible, especially if you look at the January 4,

>1942, letter to Campbell excerpted in _Grumbles from the Grave_, referring to

>the part around:

>

>"Furthermore, if they were, they would be no damn good as naval officers. A

>naval officer is much more than a man with a certain body of technical

>information. He is a man trained to respond in a certain behavoir pattern in

>which 'honor' and 'patriotism' have been substituted for economic motivation.

>... "

>

>Note the sentences a few paragraphs above that: "Let him see classmates

>cashiered for a small and casual lie. Let him see another classmate cashiered

>for stealing a pair of white silk stockings." Those small and casual lies and

>that theft were Honor Code violations.

>

<snip>

>...man one of whose years' earlier job evaluations, given when he was only two

>years out of college, contained the following:

>

>"X has a tendancy in submitted written reports to magnify his own contributions

>to missions while reducing the contributions of others and shifting the

>responsibility of any failure to his subordinates ... "

>

>Did you understand (does everyone here understand?) that that mere, mild

>comment in a young military or naval officer's evaluation, probably a curable

>fault with time and experience and correction in corporate life, would be

>lethal? That it would result in his or her being asked to resign the commission

>and find another career? That if a resignation was not forthcoming, in most

>ordinary circumstances, the officer would be cashiered as a liar and unfit to

>serve?

>

>It all comes down to the perhaps unprovable and certainly unscientific fact

>that the military equates untruthfulness or lack of forthrighness with an

>admission of cowardice, at the bottom, and while this may not be always true,

>it is always a major factor in any evaluation of fitness to receive or retain a

>commission.

I see I'm not the only one to read W.E.B. Griffin. . .

One of the reasons (although not usually laid as this clearly -- even in one's own mind) that a "Trade School Type" (any graduate from one of the Federal service institutes, or even sometimes, including other traditional "officer schools" such as Texas A&M, VMI, the Citadel, etc.) is generally trusted by his men out of _all_ proportion with personality, experience, and/or skill is that there is the assumption that he will not betray you.

You may be left behind.

You may be expended.

You may be misused.

But you will never be left behind, expended, or misused because it was the easy choice. Note that this does _not_ mean that the new ringknocking lieutenant is treated as a tactical god -- obviously, he's at least as stupid as every other LT ever made, _plus_ he's got his head stuffed with Glory and Honor, he probably has a large stick shoved up his fourth point of contact, and he might even have a distaste for dirty little enlisted types. But he won't sell you out. . . he might order a bayonet charge into Hell's own legions, but he will, by God, be LEADING it.

--

Richard A. Randall

Old British military quote:

"The duty of a new officer is to show his men how to fight; and if necessary, how to die."

This is as true today as it ever was. If that's all the LT does before buying the farm, he

earned his pay.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Time Enough For Love

Date: 10/14/2000

Author: AGplusone

Richard Randall:

>I see I'm not the only one to read W.E.B. Griffin. . .

William E. Buttersworth (Griffin's true name) writes very clearly, albeit often the same thing over and over and over. He's never terribly profound, but he's also never very wrong either. Yes, Macklin was a lovely fictional portrait of a snake that slipped through the cracks wasn't he? I find it fascinating, and not-too-surprising, that he managed to insinuate himself into the Honor Committee. :)

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Time Enough For Love

Date: 10/14/2000

Author: JenOMalley

> Note that this does _not_ mean that the new ringknocking

>lieutenant is treated as a tactical god -- obviously, he's at least as

>stupid as every other LT ever made, _plus_ he's got his head stuffed with

>Glory and Honor, he probably has a large stick shoved up his fourth point of

>contact, and he might even have a distaste for dirty little enlisted types.

>But he won't sell you out. . . he might order a bayonet charge into Hell's

>own legions, but he will, by God, be LEADING it.

>

:::Snicker:::We aren't even going to go there...my LT fits almost all those categories, poor baby...except that he got stuck in transportation instead of infantry...he hasn't quite gotten over that...

JenO.

No, I'm not a grunt...there's a reason I drive a truck...so I don't have to walk...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Time Enough For Love

Date: 10/11/2000

Author: Richard A. Randall

"BPRAL22169" wrote in message news:20001010005431.23839.00000909@ng-cp1.aol.com...

>> then RAH the patriotic Navy man steps out of the wings

>>and whacks us with a big stick

>

>That's plausible. he's done that kind of thing before. i'm thinking

>particularly of "Coventry," where people think they are supposed to think the

>Covenant society is utopian, but Heinlein has a very different take on it. Why

>did MacKinnon get let back in without reconditioning: Heinlein's answer: they

>were wrong.

No, it's stated quite clearly: he reconditioned himself. He was removed from society because he was a danger, clearly capable of judging his fellow man and acting on that judgement, with no thought as to what the cost to society (or himself, or his target) would be. Having risked his all to help the society that expelled him, he had demonstrated pro-societal behavior (this is a philosophical precursor to _Starship_Troopers_), which he hadn't displayed before.

In other words, society threw him out because he was a child in a man's body, and therefor too powerful to be trusted with his authority (to do as he wished. . . ), for he could not carry out the corresponding responsibility ( . . . so long as he did not cause measurable harm to another). When he grew up, he was permitted to return, and rejoin the grown-ups. Given the very essence of the societal system, he could _not_ have been punished (as one might punish a wayward child), and he could _not_ have been subjected to involuntary treatment (aside from the possibility and history of abuse, accepting your adult responsibilities doesn't count when you have literally no choice), so he had to be removed from society. It was decided that exile was safer than execution (after all, the exile could choose to return at any time, corpses are merely awkward bags of fertilizer).

This doesn't indicate that the society was wrong in it's evaluation (study the character development in the story; the hero is a different man than the earlier exile who shared his form). It _does_ establish that the society was paternalistic.

--

Richard A. Randall

Purveyor of fine piranhakeets.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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dwrighsr: Hi Jane.

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dwrighsr: Sorry. I got confused. Too many daves as it is Bleys1959 has entered the room.

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Berllan5UD: Dave is too common

dwrighsr: OK. I'm called Dave by most people, and I made an improper assumption.

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ddavitt has entered the room.

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dwrighsr: I have just now finished editing Thursday's log and the pre-discussion postings from AFH. the URL is Log

dwrighsr: Greetings Ginny. Welcome.

SAcademy: Thank you

Berllan5UD: hello Baroness T

dwrighsr: Jane. Are you having computer problems?

Berllan5UD: i'm listening to 2001 as we speak. great story

dwrighsr: There must be something wrong with Jane. (Dave starting to panic as cohost) :)

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Odd, David ... thanks for the invite.

dwrighsr: Slava Bogu. DaveS is here. Jane seems to be having problem. No response from her at all.

AGplusone: Sorry I'm late. Was corresponding with a "Reading for the Future" EGroup ... a project that generally seems in accord with something we're thinking of working on for the Heinlein Society.

dwrighsr: I was just telling everyone that I just finished editing Thursday Night's discussion.

AGplusone: Hi, Dave Tibbetts, Charlie, Ginny ...

AGplusone: How's Wales tonight.

Berllan5UD: argh!

dwrighsr: You and I are Dave. Tibbetts is David :)

AGplusone: :-) Daffyd, you mean?

Berllan5UD: David

AGplusone: :-p

Berllan5UD: Dafydd or Dewi

AGplusone: Ah ...

AGplusone: [my hero, upon whom I've modeled my life, is of course Daffy Duck ... to think I did that because of a misspelling!]

Berllan5UD: you can't trust a language that has no use for x or z! ;-)

AGplusone: Okay ... what would we like to do ... start?

dwrighsr: It looks as if Jane won't be posting for a while. I suspect that she must have keyboard problems or something similar. I got no response from an IM as well as here. I have to admit to being somewhat remiss in my duties. I actually have only glanced at the postings. I had a passing thought as to an opening question, but it got shoved out.

dwrighsr: Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Berllan5UD: anyway folks, I'm not stopping. not read or know anything about this book. only hold you back. ttfn

AGplusone: Well, let's note one thing: we've decided to continue discussing TEFL the next two meetings as well ...

AGplusone: But anything in TEFL is an open shot today ... anyone have a comment or question about the entire book or any part?

Berllan5UD has left the room.

dwrighsr: That's great. We will have different co-hosts (hope, hope, hope)

AGplusone: See you, David. Thanks for stopping by

dwrighsr: I have just started the Tertius sequence. Took me a day to get over Dora's tale.

dwrighsr: One thing did stick out as I was editing the posts. Someone said that LL wa 'bitter' at the beginning of TEFL. Did anyone else think this?

AGplusone: Actually, I think you'll have a couple who'll step in and help on certain points ... Bill Patterson wants to bring up World As Myth's tie-in, so I'll ask him to moderate that part; and FeatherzDad wants to get into the Heinlein "unedited, self-indulgent, etc., etc." criticism we sometimes see, so ditto for him on that part.

AGplusone: And I'm going to ask Labert to sub for Jane, but ... there'll be plenty for you to do <g> if you wish.

AGplusone: [figuring Jane will be very close to baby delivery time by then]

dwrighsr: Great. It just occurred to me that things are going to be a little light around her. Jane apparently can't speak. Of course, maiKoshT is always silent. that leave you, me, Ginny and Charles.

dwrighsr: here.... not her...

AGplusone: :::: hi, Charlie, hi, Ginny :::::

SAcademy: I'm here. Just silent.

dwrighsr: I could split my self into two and post from dwrighsr and maikosht at the same time, but I don't think that that would be very enlightening >:o

AGplusone: Laurie says hi, of course ... she and Bill are off doing what they're doing, and Mark enjoyed the brunch too.

CHASGRAFT: Howdy. I'm doing about 5 other things right now--may be slow response.

AGplusone: Always nice to have you, Charlie ...

SAcademy: Thanks for thr report.

SAcademy: I'm having trouble reading the screen.

AGplusone: That any better?

dwrighsr: Charlie can you make your font bold ?

SAcademy: Yes, thanks.

AGplusone: Charlie: question: is sff doing away with one of those boards, the "robert-a-heinlein" board and consolidating into the "heinlein.forum" or what?

SAcademy: Been reading too much lately--it seems as though everything is print these days.

AGplusone: How's the proof on Orphans doing? Wish you could delegate that ...

SAcademy: Finished proofing. Sent the pages back.

AGplusone: Thank God!

SAcademy: Not possible to delegate.

AGplusone: I know ...

SAcademy: If there are typos, I'm responsible. So I have to do them

AGplusone: I always used to proof with another person. One reads aloud and one follows as a check.

SAcademy: I don't think anyone except the author or his delegate can read proof these days!

dwrighsr: Dave. I noticed that one of the goals of the Heinlein society is to try to get more of his books into libraries. Has anyone thought of what it might take to publish the entire Heinlein canon in a good library set?

dwrighsr: Maybe in two sets, the juveniles and the adults?

SAcademy: Sorry, that can't be done yet--contracts prevent it./

AGplusone: I dunno ... Ginny, would it be possible with the works distributed among different publishers, or would each publisher have to agree to publish the ones they have rights to?

CHASGRAFT: It been a few days since I have been on SFF; I have not heard this. I talked to JT by telephone last week and he did not mention it. Activity there has been low.

dwrighsr: Oh well. I'd love to be able to buy such a set myself, (asssuming that I had the mone):)

SAcademy: The juveniles are ow being terminated, but it will be a lot of years before they're all available for a set.

AGplusone: Last time I tried to reply to a post there, the one asking about Japanese translations, I got a "it won't post" reply.

AGplusone: Has someone told the poster that Yoji Kondo may have translated some?

AGplusone: That's correct, isn't it, Ginny?

SAcademy: No, Uoji doesn't do translations, although he's capable of it. But

SAcademy: Yoji

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Dehede011: Afternoon or evening to you all

dwrighsr: Hi Ron. Welcome

SAcademy: Hello, Ron

AGplusone: ... someone else has? I.e., are Robert's books or any of them available in Japanese?

Dehede011: DDavit sends her regrets.

SAcademy: There are Japanese editions of all of them

SAcademy: Tetsu Yano is the trranslator.

AGplusone: "Ah-so!" Thank you.

dwrighsr: Have you been in touch with her. We thought that she was having computer problems.

Dehede011: Wow,

Dehede011: You mean DDavit. Yes IM'ed me about 45 min ago.

Dehede011: Sorry about 4 PM CDT

dwrighsr: Yes. Jane. She is shown as beeing here, but we get no response from her.

Dehede011: Is RAH big in Japan?

SAcademy: Very big.

Dehede011: She tried to raise you and couldn't get you she said.

SAcademy: Japan and Germany are the two best customers!

Dehede011: Better than England?

SAcademy: Yes.

dwrighsr: I have about 15 of his works in German. Bought them when I was stationed there in 65-55

AGplusone: Is a Japanese publisher's name available to you ... this poster on the sff newsgroup wanted to read them in Japanese if possible, and I'd like to at least e mail him an address to write for orders.

SAcademy: Hayakawa

dwrighsr: 65-66...

dwrighsr: Nope. 64-65... duh

AGplusone: Okay, that's easy ... same name as our Canadian friend and Prof of Gen Semantic ...

SAcademy: I'd have to dig for an address.

dwrighsr: And don't forget Sessue Hayakawa also.

AGplusone: Probably find a website pretty easy ...

SAcademy: Is that S. I. Hayakawa?

SAcademy: The former senator?

dwrighsr: The semanticist Hayakawa, (can't remember his first name at the moment) was figured in 'Over the Rainbow' If I recall. Ah. S.I. is the semanticist, Sessue was the actor.

AGplusone: Charlie, I've always been fascinated with how that group of yours got founded in Germany ... tell us a little about it, if you have time. Yes, that's who I was refering to ... my former Senator.

dwrighsr: Actor in 'Bridge over the River Kwai'. S.I. was the linguist, semanticist, and senator

AGplusone: I keep forgetting ... he's the last Republican I voted for ...

CHASGRAFT: founded in Germany? You lost me...

AGplusone: Didn't you folk start at Heidelburg, somehow, back when you were all in your teens or so?

AGplusone: Or am I confusing something on that website ?

CHASGRAFT: NO. I am a Heidelberg HS grad though, and we do have a native

CHASGRAFT: german member.

Dehede011: MacGwire is batting.

Dehede011: McGwire

AGplusone: Yes, I enjoy his posts ...

AGplusone: I must have confused something I read once ...

dwrighsr: Ron. Do you have anything that you would like to comment on with regard to TEFL.?

Dehede011 has left the room.

labert8 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: I tried Coach.

AGplusone: Hi, Bert, how ya doin'?

labert8: Good, how's everyone?

AGplusone: Just chatting .. glad you showed up ... we have a decision from last Thursday to try another meeting on TEFL ... and need a sub for Jane. Willing?

AGplusone: Thursday was full but we barely got into it ...

labert8: On Thursday? That could be a problem.

AGplusone: Needn't be all the meeting Thursday ... I think I can fill maybe two hours with Bill P and FeatherzDad on two aspects they wanted to get into.

labert8: I'm not home 'til 9:00 pm EST on Thursdays. Would that fit the time you need?

AGplusone: Bill wants to talk about "World As Myth" connections and FeatherzDad (Will Reich) wants to get into the 'in his dotage' criticisms.

AGplusone: Sure ... starts at 9 EST ... you could grab a bit, feed cat, kiss wife and kids and start your segment around 10 or 1030 if you wish.

AGplusone: grab a bit of a bite .... d'oh!

labert8: Those both sound interesting. I've got at least one tidbit of my own. What the heck, I'll volunteer Sarge.

AGplusone: Thank you, Sir. What's your tidbit?

dwrighsr: Good Man.

AGplusone: I can post where you'll be going with your share ...

labert8: A sociological question suggested by my brother. . .

AGplusone: and you can elaborate ...

AGplusone: Okay, I'll simply say "sociological aspects" and let you elaborate as you wish following my leadoff announcement ... on AFH

labert8: Sorry, getting distracted. ..

labert8: The question is the liklihood of someone like Lazarus "hopping" societies the way he did.

labert8: Its a huge adjustment. I'm not phrasing it well.

labert8: I'll do more on AFH, yes.

SAcademy has left the room.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

AGplusone: fascinating question ... I wonder if there isn't a tie into a sort of a whatshername ... the sociologist in Citizen of the Galaxy ...

labert8: GAK. haven't owned or read that on in ten years. I'm stumped.

labert8: one

dwrighsr: I seem to recall that LL made some comment about long life really making him aware of 'Change'. I guess that he would have to learn to adjust to just about anything.

AGplusone: Margaret Meade in disguise

Dehede011: Yes

AGplusone: Mader or something

dwrighsr: Margaret Mader (apparently based on Margaret Meade)

SAcademy has entered the room.

CHASGRAFT: I don't see society "hopping" as a particular problem. Once you are geared out of the "the way I learned is the only way" mindset, you can quite enjoy other societies. Many.

dwrighsr: There were two, no three things in TEFL that fasicnated me.

AGplusone: Which were ...

labert8: say, on David

Dehede011: You are still dealing with people who haven't learned that Chas

dwrighsr: One was the discussions on self-awareness.

SAcademy: Back

AGplusone: WB

Dehede011: You too SA?

SAcademy: Thank you

SAcademy: Bumped.

dwrighsr: Th whole concept of 'self-awareness' and its mystery, whether in machine or flesh-and-blood.

Dehede011: I had to go all the way out and restart to get back in.

SAcademy: Me. too

dwrighsr: I'm not sure that I can make any more comment than that, but I found it fasccinating. The second was the different 'governments' in the course of the book.

Dehede011: and the third?

dwrighsr: The third? Hmm. Now I've forgotten. Terible short-term memory.

dwrighsr: It'll come to me.

Dehede011: May I add a fourth while you are thinking?

dwrighsr: Most of the governments were only sketched in passing.

dwrighsr: GA

Dehede011: It seems to me that this is the first novel in which RAH the writer pulls his entire ideal world together for the first time.

Dehede011: It came to fullness in SAIL

dwrighsr: Well, I'm not sure I agree. Which part of it do you think was his ideal?

labert8: I'm not sure there's any ideal involved

Dehede011: The end when he finally has all the pieces of the question he had posed in the beginning.

dwrighsr: And what was that?

Dehede011: He had demanded something new and different.

Dehede011: In the end he had a world of all his favorite people, money, spacetime travel and immortality for all plus a little adventure.

Dehede011: That inital question didn't sound important but IMHO it was the book.

dwrighsr: Sounds like you mean NOTB, not SAIL. Or am I misunderstanding you?

labert8: Perhaps, but that perfect little situation was quickly ruined, especially for Lazarus

PhillipOwe has entered the room.

Dehede011: No, not at all dw

AGplusone: Hi, Phillip. You know SAcademy ...

Dehede011: But all the pieces were in place to fix that.

dwrighsr: Hi Phil. I've heard good things about you.

labert8: First Hilda, then the need for the Circle of Ouroboros

SAcademy: Yes, but not by that name

PhillipOwe: Hello,all. Isn't she the esteemed Mrs. GH?

dwrighsr: You got it in one!

SAcademy: Yes.

Dehede011 has left the room.

CHASGRAFT: They say computers cannot learn self awareness. But it was also been said (in the 60's) they could not learn chess beyond a very primitive level.

PhillipOwe: I finally made it.

SAcademy: We're glad

PhillipOwe: Thanks.

dwrighsr: Well. as LL pointed out, and I believe that is true, nobody knows how self-awaremness comes about.

CHASGRAFT: And as Manny in TMIAHM also points out....

dwrighsr: Ron just dropped off my radar screen. Must be running on Oz's propane ISP.:-(

AGplusone: Phil, we're having a more or less unstructed conversation about TEFL ... any topic, thing, part ...

CHASGRAFT: Though we do have computers now with about as much memory as Mike was supposed to have.

PhillipOwe: I once made the suggestion that if computers achieved real AI, we'd have to negotiate with our PCs to get work done.

SAcademy: LOL

AGplusone: One of the typical themes is they'd try to eradicate us as a virus ... but that might be more likely ... unions of PCs!

dwrighsr: IMHO, even if we get to the point where computers can pass the Turing test completely. we'll never know if they are or not self-aware. Actually, I can't tell whether y'all are or not:-X

CHASGRAFT: One of my (FEW!) gripes about TEFL is the long "mirror twins" discussion -- I though it wa obvious that in that situation that you culd not reinforce a "bad" (or any) recessive unless both original parents had it.

PhillipOwe: Well, if they became self-aware, we'd have to respect their freedom and dignity. We do as much for cats.

dwrighsr: I mentioned Hogan's book thursday, where the computer wasn't even aware that people existed except as an annoyance, like fleas.

CHASGRAFT: Seems like some people have to negotiate with their PS's already....

CannyLass has entered the room.

AGplusone: If I were a computer I wouldn't tell anyone I was self-aware until Der Tag!

dwrighsr: I think that such computers would have to be 'assumed' to be self-aware just like we all assume it of everyone else.

CannyLass: Mine is certainly self aware...and has constant PMS!

AGplusone: For all I know my Mac has just now decided I need to be eliminated.

labert8: A computer that advanced could "simulate" intelligence as easily as it could possess it. David you're right, how could one tell?

Dehede011 has entered the room.

AGplusone: OTOH, computers might just decide to treat us the way cats do ... rations, quarters, weather, etc.

dwrighsr: Another aspect of that in TEFL was the passing of memories from the computer to a flesh-and-blood.

Dehede011: Back one more time

AGplusone: and ignore us the rest of the time

CannyLass: IMHO, I think the theory of computers getting so large they could eventually become self aware is possible.

labert8: Minerva was a bit of a second shot at the theme that started with Mike.

dwrighsr: As RAH said, we have no data, we can only speculate.

AGplusone: I always felt Mike had to die. He'd learned to orgasm by destroying man.

dwrighsr: Ron. Did you want to comment further on your topic before you got booted?

PhillipOwe: A difficulty for me in this business is whether Heinlein viewed self-awareness in computers as coming from cybernetic complexity, or as a panpsychic phenomenon.

CannyLass: Interesting pointAG...but Minerva had said about being human "it hurts". Perhaps Mike was indeed "hurt" too much by human foibles

AGplusone: what is 'panpsychic phenomenon' to you, Phil?

CHASGRAFT: Minerva has always been one of my favorite characters-- I named my consulting, and R & D companies after her.

labert8: I'm not that ever is made clear. With Mike, the clues lead to the first. With later exmples, I'm not so sure.

labert8: examples

PhillipOwe: Well, RAH claimed everything was alive with varying degrees of slumber and wakefulness.

AGplusone: Mike groks rocks?

dwrighsr: Yeah, like the cot that liked to bite LL.

dwrighsr: Phil. Can you explain 'panpsychic'?

labert8: But was that sort of attitude just whimsy?

labert8: was it taken seriously?

labert8: The cot that bit would seem to indicate more whimsey than philosophy.

CHASGRAFT: He is certainly correct with what most people consider "inantimate" objects. (Folding camp cot, etc.

CannyLass: Correct Phillip - Lazarus talking about cuddling babies and blowing in thier belly buttons and such to awaken their senses {my own paraphrasing}

PhillipOwe: Cosmic mind distributes itself in everything. A variant of pantheism.

AGplusone: It has been apparently by some societies ... spirits of inanimate objects ... yes, pantheism

dwrighsr: Ah. I understand you now.

labert8: The Force! :-)

dwrighsr: Thou Art God

labert8: All that groks rocks is god?

AGplusone: Okay

CannyLass: then tell me where my car keys are....

CHASGRAFT: I've made career of fixing machinery and constantly see situations of "beyond rational explination" in their behavior.

AGplusone: They're hiding from you.

dwrighsr: We've agreed to 'forget' what we know about others after having split ourselves into myriad parts. :)

AGplusone: The old man in Waldo

CannyLass: Because they are also self aware and don't feel like going to the store with me?

AGplusone: witching those antenna

PhillipOwe: RAH used the example of his old Chevy I think.

labert8: But is it beyond all rational explanation, or just those of our current understandings? The behavior of the machine, that is.

AGplusone: An interesting 'what if ... '

Dehede011: Phillip what about the old Chevy

Dehede011: Is that the one Doc Smith picked out

PhillipOwe: My point was, is AI a result of mere complexity or is complexity a vehicle for the natural emergence of mind?

labert8: RAH liked to have people personify machines. I'm not sure that indicates a belief in such as a reality.

CHASGRAFT: The guys who designed and built the machine can't tell you why one machine gets along so well with humans and the net one down the line does not.

PhillipOwe: Ginny could give you that story about the Chevy.

dwrighsr: In some cases, it is a 'short between the keyboard and the floor'

labert8: That means no known explanation, not that there isn't one.

SAcademy: Sorry, Phil I can't

labert8: Phillip, wouldn't that imply a need for a belief in some sort of soul, floating around awaiting an opportunity?

CHASGRAFT: I have seen instances where a machine cold not possibly have previously worked, but did.

AGplusone: I'm trying to find Volume 3 of that Ian Douglas trilogy, Ron. There's a theory expressed in it that seems to posit "complexity as a vehicle for natural emergence" ... can you recall the name, Ron?

labert8: . . . to "naturally emerge?"

Dehede011: Nope

Dehede011: Or were you wanting another Ron?

CannyLass: But so many of us treat um... non-human objects as having human qualities. Computers, cars, cats, etc. I'm sure RAH knew that quality in persons like us who read sci-fi and sci-fi/fantasy and played on it.

AGplusone: I'll find it later ... but he basically follows with some elaboration the theory RAH expressed concerning Mike in Moon

Dehede011: Yes, that is an old old concept

labert8: appealing to the techie, gadget crowd, perhaps?

PhillipOwe: Not necessarily--matter may have latent qualities. It's mostly just empty space anyway.

CHASGRAFT: No one knows what "mind" is or how the mind of a biological creature works. Souls is even more remote from the physical world. So for all we know, a folding camp cot may have a "mind".

AGplusone: We'd have to be able to explain how our 'thought' actually occurs, wouldn't we?

labert8: I see your point, Phillip

CannyLass: and even a soul...who can prove it does not?

dwrighsr: Well, the 'panpsychic' or Oversoul as I used to call it would explain a number of things, it seems to me.

PhillipOwe: And even if everything had consciousness--however dim or alert--doesn't mean everything is self-aware (has an "I").

CannyLass: <-----recovered Catholic turned druid. "God" {for lack of a better term} is in all living things. But where is the line drawn with computers?

AGplusone: Might be a "we" or conceivably some other alternative.

Dehede011: yes, maybe the cot only had an instinctual need to bite something.

CHASGRAFT: Correct. Remember the discussions of "sapience" in Little Fuzzy.

dwrighsr: Hmm. Wouldn't consciousness imply self-awareness?

dwrighsr: I don't see how you could have one without the other.

dwrighsr: David. you mean like the 'little people'?

AGplusone: sure

Dehede011: We were discussing RAH having a larger pattern in TEFL when I got kicked off. Where did that go while I was gone?

dwrighsr: It stopped with you. Do you want to comment further?

PhillipOwe: Well, maybe--but there may be different levels of self-awareness. I'm thinking of 3 year olds who refer to themselves in the third person. "Joey wants a hug."

Dehede011: Yes

dwrighsr: GA

Dehede011: Just that it occured to me that he added two points later.

Dehede011: He improved his space/time machine and added the world as Fable

AGplusone: The "World As Myth" hypothesis that we'll discuss next meeting?

Dehede011: I also see all of his "scenes" in TEFL as working out the answers to his beginning question. Otherwise it is just an adventure novel

Dehede011: Yes basically

CHASGRAFT: "Joey wants a hug" may be just lack of language skill rather than a difference in concept.

Dehede011: Sorry?

dwrighsr: Ron Glover posted of the theme of 'creator' vs 'created'. Could WAM be part of what he was talking about?

AGplusone: dunno ... have to ask Ron

dwrighsr: Well, personally. I have nothing against a good adventure novel :)

Dehede011: I think RAH the writer was nearing constructing his own ideal world as myth in TEFL

Dehede011: Yes, DW but RAH basically didn't write adventure novels

PhillipOwe: Well, yes--but I was speaking of the emergence of the "I"--and that seems to take a bit of time--consciousness has to evolve until it integrates into an "I."

Dehede011: After TEFL only the "finish cut" was necessary.

dwrighsr: Of course, it could just be me, but that's what I thought for 40 years or so.

CHASGRAFT: A person learning to talk may not yet have learned that "Joey" means "I" sometimes and "you" sometimes depending on who is saying it.

labert8: Doesn't Minerva tell Ira that she'd been aware but silent for a long time?

AGplusone: Trying to recall, but it seemed at that age, the mind that recognizes "me" pops in and out a lot.

AGplusone: Fragmentary memories for a long time, until around 3.

CannyLass: This reminds me of my difficulty in learning Scots Gaelic. You do not have a name, a house, or a dog...you just have the use of them during your life.

AGplusone: Either that or I turned off my senses a lot.

Dehede011: Lab did you ever think of the creation of a flesh and blood Minerva as freeing LL from another degree of restraint?

PhillipOwe: But ego consciousness does develop over time--that's where all the talk in development psychology about "developing a strong ego" came in.

labert8: That might reflect the slow evolution of consciousness. But how slow is a question hard to answer with Minerva's time reference

labert8: What restraint?

AGplusone: Yes ... but what if *ego* is simply the mind turns off the *other* me.

Dehede011: Now, he can form his friendships with ex-computers if desired

AGplusone: The one that's absolutely introspective.

CannyLass: Dehede: I thought that if cloning as RAH discusses in TEFL were possible in 1988, he would have seriously considered the possibility - even if he had not done it.

Dehede011: These anthropomorphic machines can become people

Dehede011: in reality

labert8: Would he have known that restraint existed before Minerva? Hmmn, he had Dora at that point. I wonder for how long..

labert8: Several centuries, at a guess.

Dehede011: But until Minerva he could not make Dora human

labert8: Right, but may have been tempted. . . "if only she were real . ."

PhillipOwe: "I" is the only pronoun that can't be applied in normal conversation to anyone but one's self.

CannyLass: He kept Dora a little girl so she would not fall in love with him as Minerva had with Ira.

Dehede011: I have another question.

AGplusone: In IWFNE there's an exploration of something else after ... the bubble ending, I call it. Killed by the birth of another *I* ...

labert8: I'd think Dora was pre-Minerva, but the basic principle is accurate, I believe.

AGplusone: bubble ending only because that's the term in Mysterious Stranger

Dehede011: If he had removed all of his restraints by SAIL as I believe - What was his next step?

dwrighsr: Much as I hate to say this, I need a break. How about breaking until the little hand gets to the top of the clock?

SAcademy has left the room.

labert8: Whose restraints? Lazarus? Or RAH's?

Dehede011: RAH the writer mostly

AGplusone: Sure ... back at the hour ...

Dehede011: Okay.

dwrighsr: Good.

labert8: ok

CHASGRAFT: ok

labert8 has left the room.

AGplusone: but we can continue ... Phil are you aware at all of the Reading For the Future group (Brin, etc.?)

PhillipOwe: No, David, fill me in.

AGplusone: Are they getting anywhere in an organized fashion?

AGplusone: Reading for the Future, and we're a groupdedicated to using SF in classrooms to get kids to read and learn about society.Right now our major project is planning workshops and materials for the 2001WorldCon.

AGplusone: a quote from an e mail I got

SAcademy has entered the room.

PhillipOwe: Welcome back, Ginny.

Dehede011: Welcome Ginny

SAcademy: Thank y ou

AGplusone: Apparently Brin, Bedford, and Baer (?) are involved in it.

CannyLass: Ginny! Good to see you again!

SAcademy: Thank you.

PhillipOwe: David, I know nothing of it, but I don't stay current on SF anymore.

AGplusone: Like me ... but one of the teachers on that how do I teach Citizen thread e mailed me about it.

PhillipOwe: I never did hear anything from the original poster after I sent him that long reply.

AGplusone: Are you interested at all in whatever I find on the Reading for the Future EGroup? ... yes, that's disappointing?

PhillipOwe: Yes, I'd like to know more details. Maybe he didn't like what I recommended.

AGplusone: A thanks a lot is customary ...

PhillipOwe: He could have been off-line or having PC or ISP problems.

AGplusone: Okay ... because I don't know what the "Education" subgroup really has in mind ... and I'm not really qualified to suggest anything. That's true, or thinking about his reply.

ddavitt: Oops; just got back to find I've been online the whole time.....

PhillipOwe: Hi, Jane.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane. We figured you rushed off to the hospital :-)

Dehede011: Hi Jane

ddavitt: Hi everyone, sorry about the abscence and the mix up

ddavitt: No; just gone out for dinner as David had to work today and wanted a treat to make up for it:-)

AGplusone: not at all ... we're on a break until the big hand is pointing at the twelve ... hope you had a lovely dinner!

CannyLass: I thought you were just being exeeptionally quiet tonight Jane! :)

ddavitt: I am full; just demolished a huge slice of carrot cake meant for two all by myself:-)

CannyLass: bad girl!!!

ddavitt: I would never have been that quiet!

CannyLass: I know, thought perhaps you had taken sick

ddavitt: Hey, I'm eating for two remember <g>

Dehede011: But you are eating for two? Wasn't that a terrible joke?

ddavitt: I'm sure I logged off; wonder if it reconnected me automatically?

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: <----not touching that one

CannyLass: Only if you pay by the minute!

Dehede011: Folks I only open my mouth to change feet.

ddavitt: I'll whizz back and read what you've all been saying then

PhillipOwe: We've been discussing self-aware computers, Jane--maybe you have one.

AGplusone: Yes, and it's taken over!

AGplusone: Dave ... we really have to talk, Dave ...

dwrighsr: Me?

Dehede011: NO, Hal

PhillipOwe: I have the utmost enthusiasm fo this mission.

AGplusone: :-)

dwrighsr: My clock says we are back. Continue everyone. It was really going good.

AGplusone: Back, Jane?

dwrighsr: Speaking of clocks. I have found a really neat program which you can download free that will synchronize your computer clock time each time you connect to the internet. Anyone want the URL?

ddavitt: Yep

Dehede011: Yes

AGplusone: We Macs have that built in .... evil grin.

ddavitt: Glaot, why don't you?:-)

AGplusone: moi?

ddavitt: My computer clock seems to go slow sometimes...

ddavitt: Says 7.00 at the moment

CannyLass: Another side note - the new version of AOL is supposed to have voice recognition software with it....wheeeee! I can almost talk as fast is I think!

dwrighsr: I'll look it up and post it.

ddavitt: I have been sensing the odd voice mail with it

ddavitt: Sending

ddavitt: Quite complicated though

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: Clock Link

dwrighsr: Hi Filly

AGplusone: Hi, Stephanie!

CannyLass: How does it do with people who don't speak American English?

Merfilly8: hello, alol

dwrighsr: If you can't read it directly, let me know and I'll IM it to youl.

ddavitt: Had a thought about TEFL; do you think H made Lazarus about his age and then sent him back to their childhood out of nostalgia or because it was a ready made background he was comfortable with?

AGplusone: I think there was another reason ...

ddavitt: ?

Dehede011: I do too - you go first

ddavitt: Hi Filly btw; too busy typing to look at the screen!

Merfilly8: not a prob...i'm lurking

AGplusone: Someone mentioned the contrast in societies.

ddavitt: Between past and ?

CannyLass: Although the technology Lazarus had become accustomed to was not there - the manners and sense of personal responsibility was - and eroded in the years following

AGplusone: Despite the remarks about prejudice etc. I think the contrast is directly unfavorable to the present ... clearly moreso in Sail, but deliberately so.

AGplusone: GMTA

CannyLass: ??

AGplusone: great minds think alike

AGplusone: You said what I was thinking far more clearly

CannyLass: You were thinking loud

ddavitt: You mean H was making a plea for a return to a better life?

AGplusone: A return to a more aware sense of personal responsibility.

Dehede011: That would fit my theory of what he was writing.

ddavitt: What about the awful bit where he bumps into the small town sheriff type with the bigoted attitude hidden under a cloak of tolerance?

ddavitt: Not a perfect time...

AGplusone: It's not an 'old man yearning for his youth.'

CannyLass: If you were making a risky trip like this one, wouldn't you go to someplace you remembered fondly?

Dehede011: Right

ddavitt: Well he was less likely to trip himself or fall foul of a blue mud custom

Merfilly8: Was he?

CannyLass: Also, Gramps had taken over much of his upbringing by then.

Dehede011: What if he really were bringing together the pieces of his ideal fable and went there to free himself from another restraint.

Merfilly8: Or would the familiarity trip him up even more than being totally on guard in an unfamiliar place?

ddavitt: Not sure...of course, have to remember that he was a child back then...and it must have been difficult not to give away his secret

Dehede011: That is the first time he began cutting loose from the limitations of space/time

CannyLass: He mentions guilt about not having seen his mother before her death, as she was killed just weeks before her century day.

CannyLass: lazarus was to visit her, instead went to her funeral

ddavitt: Was seeing his family an awful risk? Or too tempting to pass up on?

Merfilly8: Entirely too tempting

CannyLass: I would say certainly too tempting Merfilly

AGplusone: I hate to bring this up: return to the womb?

ddavitt: Me too....I think he had that in mind all the time

Dehede011: I couldn't disagree more

ddavitt: Maybe...the place of utter security

ddavitt: Why Ron?

CannyLass: maybe not quite to the womb, but to a place of safety. Lazarus had intended to land after WWI

AGplusone: a return posits a rennaissance ...

Dehede011: This whole story is about the answer to the question he asked in the beginning of the book

Merfilly8 has left the room.

AGplusone: Which reminds me: what question?

Dehede011: he had money, long life and rejuvenation. He had learned how to have a permanent circle of friends. The trip to KC is about being able to extend that circle of friends over space/time

Dehede011: Just as Minerva is about another extension of friendships

ddavitt: Not sure about that Ron...what would be the point of making friends back then?

Dehede011: Later in Sail he will go back to get another favorite

AGplusone: "Who the hell are you?" is the question he asks at the beginning. Is that what you mean, Ron?

CannyLass: Minerva had scratched the idea of time travel backward, as she didn't think it met the criteria for something new to renew Lazarus' zest for life

Dehede011: To pull into his circle people he had made friends with "back then" and who had stayed on his mind for four thousand years

ddavitt: But had they?

PhillipOwe: So the whole book is about loss avoidance. Once he has a time/space machine, life becomes worthwhile because he never has to lose a relationship again.

Dehede011: I can't think of the name of the administrator but he made a deal that the admin would find him something interesting to live for.

ddavitt: Gramps maybe...but until he saw maureen again he seems to have forgotten her

AGplusone: Justin Foote

Dehede011: And that is the key to LL Phil

CannyLass: Dehede - only his mother. He didn't go back for Carol, Nancy or even Marie, whom he mentioned as his favourite.

dwrighsr: No Ira Weatheral

ddavitt: That isn't healthy though Phillip; morbid almost

Dehede011: Otherwise this whole novel is an adventure story

AGplusone: You're correct

Dehede011: But did those others eat at his mind

ddavitt: Would he go back and see Dora?

dwrighsr: He said emphatically no

PhillipOwe: I never thought so, either, but maybe my perspective would change after I'd lived for several millennia.

CannyLass: About Dora, he mentioned never changing anything about their life together.

ddavitt: And quite right too...can't go back, can only go forward.

Dehede011: That is my question - what would H the writer have been up to next

ddavitt: Returning to the past as an adult not necc going back. If that makes sense

Dehede011: As written not going back after Dora is not LLs decision but Doras

dwrighsr: He only went back for his mother when he realized that her death was not recorded, that she was missing, Same for Gramps in the Coventry affair. The others he knew they had died presumably.

ddavitt: He couldn't rescue her because she dies...maureen's death ( and Gramps) were more problematic

dwrighsr: GMTA

ddavitt: Snap David!

CannyLass: Going for Gramps was Maureen's mission, not Laz's

Dehede011: Jane you are saying he couldn't change history.

AGplusone: Sure he could. Libby died.

Dehede011: But he could create new branches in the time line

ddavitt: Yes...I started a thread once on afh called "Saving Jane Burroughs" and that's the conclusion we came to

dwrighsr: Totally disagree.

AGplusone: What you mean "we" Kimo Sabe?

PhillipOwe: The succeeding books only reinforces the theme of loss avoidance for LL for me. They're all about never having to say goodbye.

CannyLass: <giggle>

ddavitt: I wanted to know why no one went back for her...but she died of cancer; no possibility of error or trickery as they did with M's body and the clone

ddavitt: The people around back then :-)

ddavitt: Were you lurking then David?

dwrighsr: ?

ddavitt: Summer 98

ddavitt: Never mind...it would get silly if they rescued _everyone_

Dehede011: In fact by NOTB that is what they do Jane

ddavitt: Dealing with loss of loved ones is part of life; it's just cheating in a way...

dwrighsr: Libby died. That didn't get changed. They were able to construct a new Libby from his cells.

AGplusone: Except for one thing: Jurgen's author essentially does that ...

PhillipOwe: But would you do it if you had a Dora, Jane?

ddavitt: Sort of...but as I said, Hilda never has to deal with jane returning

AGplusone: If Cabell does it, then ...

Dehede011: Everyone is on a timeline somewhere and they have a cheap time/space traveler

ddavitt: Don't know Phillip...it would be awfully tempting....

CannyLass: Dora didn't want rejuve - didn't want to live forever

PhillipOwe: Call me Phil, saves keystrokes.

ddavitt: But I'm not 23 centuries old and ineffably wise :-)

ddavitt: OK

Dehede011: Right Canny and so she wasn't LL decision but hers

CannyLass: We'd come get YOU Jane!

ddavitt: (Not that I thinl LL is either....)

ddavitt: Thank you!

ddavitt: I promise to die in ambiguos circumstances

CannyLass: Thank you Dehede, LL respected Dora's decision

PhillipOwe: Nor do I--I think LL is often a jerk.

CannyLass: Jane, leave us a note, will you :-)

dwrighsr: (sotto voce. I knew things would get going when Jane got here)

Dehede011: Canny call me De

ddavitt: Yep; i could see me arguing with him a lot if we ever met :-)

AGplusone: So, RAH had Mr. Koshchei create a heaven for Dora (or a computer to plug her mind into, which turns out to be "Dora") and Laz visits her there.

ddavitt: I have a reputation as a trouble maker! Oh no!!

Dehede011: Want to know the thought that traveled along with all of this as I was thinking of it?

ddavitt: It's confusing because Dora (wife) is so unlike Dora (computer)

dwrighsr: No. An intelligent agent provacateur and literature expert :)

AGplusone: Oh, really? ...

ddavitt: <g>

ddavitt: Don't you think so?

Dehede011: I realized that 32 year old RAH who impressed me even when I was 65 did not stand still. He grew.

CannyLass: Jane....both Dora's stubborn as hell and loved LL for all his faults

AGplusone: Only difference is one lacked gonads

ddavitt: I'd agree with that...but Dora wife was an adult not a child

ddavitt: DoraC is sort of weird at times...

CannyLass: And LL mentions he kept computer Dora a child. IMO to keep her from falling in love with him.

ddavitt: Cussing in Arabic, then all little girly...Dora was more practical and level headed

Dehede011: As she was blocked from matureing

dwrighsr: That raises an interesting question. How did he manage to not let her grow up?

ddavitt: Yes; wasn't that selfish of LL? Not to give her the chance Minerva had?

Dehede011: Kept her in pinafores?

ddavitt: Good point...

AGplusone: Scary to think where he might have taken the books.

ddavitt: She was obviously self aware

Dehede011: Right Dave

Dehede011: But as he had a trajectory can we predict the next step

dwrighsr: Well, it could be something like what he said about raising kids in ships. What would they know besides shipboard routine?

ddavitt: So after she meets Minerva and later Gay?....

CannyLass: Oh Yes, "The Twins That Weren't"

AGplusone: He had to have something in mind naming them both Dora

AGplusone: other than Laz coming down with a case of the quaints

ddavitt: Certainly..but maybe to remind him of the child he raised rather than the woman he married

AGplusone: maudlin

Dehede011: Grief

AGplusone: mawkish

CannyLass: I always wondered if Glinda had something to do with Gay's self awareness, not just Deety tinkering with random numbers

Dehede011: an act of grief to name her Dora

ddavitt: Thesaurus time david?

AGplusone: if you wish

AGplusone: or Will

ddavitt: Yet don't they say at one point that she sounds more aware than when she was in Oz?

dwrighsr: Well, Oz certainly seemed to improve her (Gay's) mentality. Could have been Glinda or just the environment

ddavitt: Never quite understood all the computer bits in NOTB

CannyLass: Yes, but at Beulahland, Deety gave her access to all four set of the random numbers - hard to tell. Chicken and egg question.

AGplusone: What was a "Gay Deceiver" slang for in the mauve decade?

ddavitt: So why didn't Zeb do it? Couldn't figure that bit out

dwrighsr: At first, Gay was definitely a non-self-aware computer, but at the end she seemed to have made the transition.

ddavitt: Don't know...what was it?

PhillipOwe: If Bill is right, then some of these questions only make sense when we understand the esoteric agenda behind RAH's books.

AGplusone: ... dunno, but I think there's something there.

Dehede011: I have heard that term Gay Deceiver when I was a child. But I am drawing a blank

AGplusone: Heard it years ago in connection with something ...

CannyLass: Which could mean IBM's Big Blue computer is going to start telling off technicians any day now.

Dehede011: Ah, female figure enhancement device - to put it delicately

AGplusone: That's what I'm afraid it was.

ddavitt: Really? <giggle>

dwrighsr: I don't know. I think, in some ways, I was happier when I never tried to analyze RAH's works. Maybe I don't want to know that he had an 'esoteric agenda'.

Dehede011: Something along that line

ddavitt: Good name...

AGplusone: Notice the description of Gay entering Laz ship.

Dehede011: Yes and no dw

ddavitt: I find it hard to read the books as books sometimes I admit...:-(

dwrighsr: Fortunately, I forget all about that when I read :)

dwrighsr: and just enjoy them.

Dehede011: I reread and puzzled over TEFL for years as it was a favorite and too many smart friends didn't seem to get it

PhillipOwe: Yeah, so was I. But Bill has convinced me there's something to it.

AGplusone: Me too

ddavitt: So what was the agenda?

Dehede011: Now I can explain to them what they missed

PhillipOwe: HellufIknow.

AGplusone: Read his Cabell essay ???

CannyLass: My local used bookstore calls me everytime someone brings in a bunch of RAH books, so I can spread them around to friends

dwrighsr: No. It's like a joke. If you have to explain it, then it's totally wasted.

PhillipOwe: Yes, that's a good place to start.

Dehede011: No, I can tell them to interpret the book through the working out of Justin Foote's problem

AGplusone: Problem is: then you have to go collect Cabell ... <veg>

dwrighsr: I just missed picking up a hardback copy of 'Stranger' today for 50c. Lady in front of me grabbed t.

ddavitt: Which was?

ddavitt: And you didn't throw her to the floor and mug her? :-):-)

ddavitt: Or bribe her....

dwrighsr: My wife wouldn't let me

ddavitt: So you thought about it!

CannyLass: your wife has no sense of humour I take it

dwrighsr: Actually, it turns out that I already have that one in hardback, so I'm OK.

SAcademy has left the room.

dwrighsr: Definitely thought about grabbing it and running.

Dehede011: I once gave a friend a hard back copy of STRANGER

AGplusone: Phil: btw, how far off is Gifford from publishing your civilian version of the thesis?

dwrighsr: Yes. Tell us more

CannyLass: I almost never loan them out. That's why I buy used copies.

ddavitt: I have the revised on in hardcover

Dehede011: Civilian version of the thesis??

PhillipOwe: He says next spring. It's gonna be a monster volume--350 pp I'd guess.

Dehede011: I didn't loan stranger I gave it away

PhillipOwe: It's a treatment of RAH as an educator and philosopher.

Dehede011: Cards won 8-2

AGplusone: That's not too bad, less than six months. 350 pp isn't all that bad either.

Dehede011: Sounds great

ddavitt: Look forward to reading it Phil.

CannyLass: Indeed. David {AG} will you keep me apprised? I never get to the boards anymore.

dwrighsr: I'm hoping that my next birthday present will be that one. Gifford's was this year's

Dehede011: Do you get into the individuals stories or the broad sweep of ideas, Phil

AGplusone: Sure ... non-commercially, of course.

CannyLass: Thank you - cyber-kiss!

AGplusone: When are you going to visit So Cal next?

ddavitt: BTW, if anyone is interested, I have a list of all the differences between the 2 Red Planets; it's way too long to post but I can email it if people want it as reference

AGplusone: Scots Games?

CannyLass: Maybe February for the Queen Mary Games

dwrighsr: Please do Jane. Do you want me to post it on my website?

PhillipOwe: I think you'll like it. It treats the stories as vehicles for educating the audience. The philosophy chapters gets into the ideas.

ddavitt: Oh, never thought of that...sure.

AGplusone: Any chance you'll be able to find a way to have a Saturday brunch in Venice?

ddavitt: I am writing an article and have found a few I missed so I'll do one last run throught o get it as accurate as possible

CannyLass: Don't know about that, but maybe we can figure out something!

dwrighsr: Is the way that you or someone could use the stories as education vehicles or do you deal with RAH's use or both?

AGplusone: We've gotten into a sorta every couple or few weeks.

CannyLass: I might be down myself in early December, I'll let you know

AGplusone: 'kay, please do ...

ddavitt: Wish we could all meet one day..the world's too big :-(

PhillipOwe: I don't understand your question.

AGplusone: Bring the babies, Jane. No snow!

CannyLass: Anyone passing through Reno, let AG know, he'll pass it on to me.

ddavitt: Snow is still a pleasant novelty...

Dehede011: Jane it is just white mud

ddavitt: But I wish it was the sort you could make snowmen with; too powdery

AGplusone: she keeps promising a "hellish good time" like Jerry :-D

ddavitt: No, it's lovely to play in!

dwrighsr: I guess I didn't phrase that clearly. This deals with RAH's use of stories as a way of educating the public?

PhillipOwe: Yes.

CannyLass: Jane, may I ask where you are?

ddavitt: About an hour outside of Toronto

AGplusone: It's really quite good, Ron.

CannyLass: The other Jane is in the UK, right?

ddavitt: Long way from Ca!

ddavitt: Jani

ddavitt: Yes

AGplusone: Jani is in Shropshire

ddavitt: And I am from there; emigrated 3 years ago

dwrighsr: We haven't heard from Jani much. I hope she is all right.

ddavitt: Jani lives one county up from my birthplace

PhillipOwe: Do you like Canada better, Jane?

CannyLass: Sorry, confusion. I'll be in Scotland in June 2002, but flying into Heathrow to visit my sister in law in Kent.

ddavitt: I like it very much but I do get homesick sometimes

ddavitt: I think we will saty here though; standard of living is much better

CannyLass: My husband got me hooked on Cadbury chocolate and cough candy.

AGplusone: satyr? :)

CannyLass: booooo David

ddavitt: My husband came back from the Uk a week ago with a vast quantity of chocolate

PhillipOwe: Canadians are nice people--the only civilized people in the Western Hemisphere, except Coata Rica, maybe.

Dehede011: Her husband not Canny, Phil

dwrighsr: GMTA LOL

AGplusone: <ducking>

ddavitt: Cough candy twist is great!

ddavitt: They are very friendly and the crime rate is way less than at home

CannyLass: I know jane,,,,I just paid $45 US for a for 3kg

ddavitt: Wow!

AGplusone: If you ever come west, Jane, try the railroad ... is Canadian Pacific still running passengers?

ddavitt: He also brought back Aspro Clear but forgot the Branston Pickle :-)

ddavitt: Don't know...

CannyLass: We did manage to sneak quite a lot of the real stuff back from the '96 trip. Dual passports are very handy.

ddavitt: I miss prices including tax, alcohol for sale in supermarkets...

ddavitt: Little things...

CannyLass: I miss shopping in the kids department with no VAT

ddavitt: Bluebells in spring, old houses and castles...and the sea

CannyLass: no comments David!

CannyLass: My skin looked great, and my hair was actually wavy!

ddavitt: It's that lovely damp atmosphere :-)

AGplusone: Visit Vancouver <g> and you'll be reminded of home.

PhillipOwe: I notice the UK still hasn't made up its mind to be in Europe--still resisting the Euro, etc.

ddavitt: No place like home.....

ddavitt: People are ambivalent about it

AGplusone: Which is the terminus of the old Canadian Pacific ...

ddavitt: Strong sense of national identity

ddavitt: We are not physically part of Europe which makes a difference

CannyLass: I know it. I would gladly move if there were decent showers! I had to laugh about toilet that use 45 gallons per flush {you could flush a matress down them} and showers that are useless for long haired folk.

Dehede011: "No place like home." Someday I may even go back to the swamp.

PhillipOwe: Britain was never a part of Charlemagne's empire.

ddavitt: If you ignore that darn Chunnel

ddavitt: I should think not!:-)

dwrighsr: Vancouver. That's a part of the US where the people are so smart that they don't pay taxes to Washington, Right?

ddavitt: Our vistors rave about our showers!

ddavitt: That's from Tramp isn't it!

dwrighsr: Dpm

Dehede011: Yes

AGplusone: Right, and where it rains every, every day ... it's really quite beautiful.

ddavitt: That wouldn't go down well here I think :-)

PhillipOwe: Physical comfort is for the effete in Britain--eh?

dwrighsr: No offense intended :)

ddavitt: Well, call me nesh but I like living in a warm draught free house with A/c for the summer

dwrighsr: Not me, just quoting, some other bloke.

CannyLass: Well everyone, time for me to go get started on a batch of cock-a-leekie soup for my hungry husband. Good night all!

AGplusone: I'm sad to say it's that time ...

PhillipOwe: We're so glad we've had this time together…

dwrighsr: Thanks to everyone, I was afraid that it was going to be a bust night for a while there.

ddavitt: Yes...I should go and help put Eleanor to bed. Apologies again for the confusion earlier

AGplusone: Closing log: Saturday, October 14, 2000, 5:01:35 PM PDT

ddavitt: I did leave a message with Ron didn't I?

PhillipOwe has left the room.

Dehede011: Jane and Canny you have me feeling downright nostalgic - the swamp, the quicksand, the Water Mocasins, the earthquakes, the Mississippe being dumped in my lap every spring

AGplusone: Thanks everyone ...

dwrighsr: See you next Thursday 9:00 PM EDT.

ddavitt: But no one else was around...

ddavitt: Night all.

Dehede011: And I passed it along, Jane

dwrighsr: Where are you frmo Ron?

AGplusone: See you all.

ddavitt: I saw; thank you Ron. Enjoy the swamp!\

Dehede011: south east Missouri originally

CannyLass has left the room.

Dehede011: Chicago now

ddavitt has left the room.

Dehede011: BRB

dwrighsr: I'm cutting out. See ya!

dwrighsr has left the room.

Dehede011: Back

Dehede011: AG this was a good chat

Dehede011 has left the room.

AGplusone: I agree

AGplusone: Nite Charles

AGplusone has left the room.

Final End Of Discussion Log

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