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Thursday 10-10-02 08:00 P.M. EDT
The Juveniles -- How to Teach Them?
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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Subject: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Date: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:29 PM
Heinlein Readers' Group Chats
October 10 and 12, 2002
Back to School
The Juveniles, Another Look --
How to Teach Them?
Book 1 -- Rocket Ship Galileo
Robert James, a fellow who teaches a little, and I had a conversation with Mrs. Wood, the literary agent for the Heinlein Estate, while up at ConJosé. One topic of our discussion -- never mind about the rest for the time being, we'll let you know when the time is ripe -- was a project near and dear to the hearts of The Heinlein Society, perhaps to you as well, production of something we can call here a Teachers' Edition of each of the Heinlein Juvenile novels: an examination of how publishers might be encouraged to bring them out, perhaps in a set, perhaps in groups, perhaps one each year as the original juvenile series did come out. Mrs. Wood had a lot of suggestions we'll be trying to implement.
But mechanics, contractual issues, and finding a publisher actually willing to go to print with the teachers editions aside, the one thing each separate juvenile novel needs is what I'll call for the purposes of this exercise a teaching critique -- more than merely an outline, but a wholehearted examination from which the bones of a comprehensive teaching outline, both for student and teacher, might be produced. By that I mean an examination of what's in there for each novel, what teaching points exist to be used in each novel? We've been through the juveniles before -- once over lightly you might say, but never with this single-minded viewpoint exclusively: what would I teach, if I were restricted to using one of Heinlein's juveniles as the major text, to older grammar or secondary students?
Rocket Ship Galileo, written in February-March 1946, sold to Scribners in September, and published just before the winter holidays in 1947, was the first of the juveniles. It was the first Heinlein I was handed to read, six or so years later in the summer of 1954, by a public librarian. I was eleven at the time. Perhaps you read it at a younger age, perhaps older -- maybe, like Oliver Gampe in another recent thread, you've just obtained a copy and are reading it for the first time as an adult. Perhaps you've never read it, or it's been so long you've forgotten more than you recall.
Criticized sometimes as being "dated," Galileo was nevertheless the start. One good starting critique of Galileo -- and by critique I mean an essay that examines both good and bad -- is an internet essay entitled "Destination Moon -- Commentary by Joseph T. Major on Robert A. Heinlein's Rocket Ship Galileo," found at http://members.iglou.com/jtmajor/RocketSG.htm which we all can look at as a pretty good start for the bones of what a teacher might need.
So, why don't we do this for our next readers group meeting: read along with Oliver Gampe, and see what we find and what we think about the first juvenile novel, Rocket Ship Galileo, as a teaching vehicle?
Then we can meet, as usual, and discuss it.
Time and Date: Thursday, October 10, 8 PM* to 11 PM*, ET and Saturday, October 12, 5 PM to 8 PM, ET
Topic: Rocket Ship Galileo, creating a teacher's guide
Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"
Please use the link you'll find on the Links page of www.heinleinsociety.org to help yourself into the chatroom.
**Please note that I've done two things, here. I've moved the hour for the Thursday meetings up one hour to accommodate our East Coast and possibly European readers a bit; and I've set the meeting for three weeks off to give everyone a good opportunity to obtain a copy of the book.
RSGalileo is temporarily out-of-print. If you haven't a copy, a search today of www.abebooks.com revealed currently 110 copies of it for sale, ranging from collectors' prices for near perfect first editions (don't ask) down to the $2 or $3 or $10 range for paperbacks in various condition. I've used Abebooks. Takes about 3 days usually to receive an order by mail, which should be quite sufficient.
As ever, please post your thoughts on the topic. The more posts, the better our chats will be. And we'll be very happy to see as many of you as possible in the threads that follow and at the chats.
David M. Silver
"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:3D8BCB9B.9070008@verizon.net...
[Stuff...and then...] >if I were >restricted to using one of Heinlein's juveniles as the major text, to >older grammar or secondary students? [Other stuff gone, too.] > David M. Silver > www.heinleinsociety.org**********************************
Dave,
Take a look at http://www.beloit.edu/~pubaff/releases/mindset_2006.html
Says, in part, the following:
BELOIT COLLEGE "MINDSET LIST" FOR THE CLASS OF 2006 Most students entering college this fall were born in 1984. 1. A Southerner has always been President of the United States. 2. Richard Burton, Ricky Nelson and Truman Capote have always been dead. 3. South Africa's official policy of apartheid has not existed during their lifetime. 4. Cars have always had eye-level rear stop lights, CD players, and air bags. 5. We have always been able to choose our long distance carriers. 6. Weather reports have always been available 24-hours a day on television. 7. The "evil empire" has moved from Moscow to a setting in some distant galaxy. 8. "Big Brother" is merely a television show. 9. Cyberspace has always existed. 10. Bruce Springsteen's new hit, Born in the USA, could have been played to celebrate their birth. 11. Barbie has always had a job. 12. Telephone bills have always been totally incomprehensible. 13. Prom dresses have always come in basic black. 14. A "Hair Band" is some sort of fashion accessory. 15. George Foreman has always been a barbecue grill salesman 16. Afghanistan has always been a front page story. 17. There has always been an heir to the heir to the British throne. 18. They have no recollection of Connie Chung or Geraldo Rivera as serious journalists. 19. Peter Jennings, Dan Rather, and Tom Brokaw have always anchored the evening news. 20. China has always been a market-based reforming regime. 21. The United States has always been trying to put nuclear waste in Nevada. 22. The U.S. and the Soviets have always been partners in space. 23. Mrs. Fields' cookies and Swatch watches have always been favorites. 24. Nicholas Cage, Daryll Hannah, Eddie Murphy, and John Malkovich made their first major film impressions the year they were born. 25. The GM Saturn has always been on the road. 26. The "Fab Four" are not a male rock group, but four women enjoying "Sex and the City." 27. Fox has always been a television network choice. 28. Males do not carry a handkerchief in a back pocket. 29. This generation has never wanted to "be a Pepper too." 30. Ozzy's lifestyle has nothing to do with the Nelson family. 31. Women have always had tattoos. 32. Vanessa Williams and Madonna are aging singers. 33. Perrier has always come in flavors. 34. Cherry Coke has always come in cans. 35. A "hotline" is a consumer service rather than a phone used to avoid accidental nuclear war. 36. The drug "ecstasy" has always been around. 37. Genetic testing and DNA screening have always been available. 38. Electronic filing of federal income taxes has always been an option. 39. Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) has always been available to doctors. 40. Trivial Pursuit may have been played by their parents the night before they were born. 41. The U.S. has always maintained that it has a "clear right to use force against terrorism." 42. The drinking age has always been 21 throughout the country. 43. Women have always been members of the Jaycees. 44. The center of chic has shifted from Studio 54 to Liza's living room, live! 45. Julian Lennon had his only hit the year they were born. 46. Sylvan Learning Centers have always been an after-school option. 47. Hip-hop and rap have always been popular musical forms. 48. They grew up in minivans. 49. Scientists have always recognized the impact of acid rain. 50. The Coen Brothers have always been making films. And in 1984, perhaps it was "Too Soon to Tell"... Technology analysts questioned the need for briefcase-sized computers. The National Children and Youth Fitness Study announced that children were overweight and underactive. A CPA organization heralded that computerized audit systems were being used to avoid errors and they were doing much better at spotting mistakes and providing internal audit controls. Film critics declared that George Lucas was looking for new directions because Star Wars interest was waning. Videotape technology was said to be killing the film industry and slowing cable network development. Analysts stated there was no market for Direct Broadcast Satellite systems. The U.S. Supreme Court declared sleeping to be a form of free speech. © 2002 Beloit College, Beloit, Wisconsin
*************************************
Now, on top of that "Rocket Ship" is the clunkiest juvenile he wrote. What do you want to do, poison them against both the genre and the writer? Sure, there are kids capable of understanding some of the context of the writing and publication and somebody's probably going to say those are the ones worth going after. Yeah, right, both those kids and the eventual used book sales, inquiring ng posts they make.
Why don't you start with something a little more developed and maybe a little flashier as a teaching text? "Tunnel" was the first one I read then "Star Beast." Both make "Rocket Ship" look like the compromise to get published that it is.
Ditch "Rocket Ship." It's too uphill to sell.
LNC
cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
>"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message >news:3D8BCB9B.9070008@verizon.net... > >[Stuff...and then...] > > > >>if I were >>restricted to using one of Heinlein's juveniles as the major text, to >>older grammar or secondary students? >> >> > >[Other stuff gone, too.] >[snip interesting cultural points, some significant, some same stuff, different days] > >************************************* >Now, on top of that "Rocket Ship" is the clunkiest juvenile he wrote. What >do you want to do, poison them against both the genre and the writer? Sure, >there are kids capable of understanding some of the context of the writing >and publication and somebody's probably going to say those are the ones >worth going after. Yeah, right, both those kids and the eventual used book >sales, inquiring ng posts they make. > >Why don't you start with something a little more developed and maybe a >little flashier as a teaching text? "Tunnel" was the first one I read then >"Star Beast." Both make "Rocket Ship" look like the compromise to get >published that it is. > To answer the question: Some aren't and some are now available; and I'm methodical -- we've got the time to practice; and I'd rather not miss a point or two. >Ditch "Rocket Ship." It's too uphill to sell. >Selling it is a matter of proof, not assertions -- I'm willing to be convinced; but that takes facts. ;-) Here's a basket for you all. Dump 'em on in.
David
Good morning,
On Sat, 21 Sep 2002, cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
> "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote: [...] > Take a look at http://www.beloit.edu/~pubaff/releases/mindset_2006.html > > Says, in part, the following: > > BELOIT COLLEGE "MINDSET LIST" FOR THE CLASS OF 2006Generally, I agree with the assessment that most entering college tend to have a short view of history and have had less than two decades' experience (I'll admit I suffered from both symptoms), but a few items on the list stretch things a little bit...
> 1. A Southerner has always been President of the United States.Including the one born in Massachusetts and living in Maine (I'll stipulate they were too young to remember the one born in Illinois and living in California)?
> 16. Afghanistan has always been a front page story.A remarkably short definition of "always". It's been on my radar since 1996, but except for a week or so in 1998, it hasn't been on the front page during that time until last year.
> 41. The U.S. has always maintained that it has a "clear right to use force > against terrorism."Not sure about this one. Either it's the same short definition of "always", or it's a rarely-exercised right -- in their lifetime, and before last year, there were Operations El Dorado Canyon & Infinite Reach, plus a couple 2d-page hostage rescue operations.
> 28. Males do not carry a handkerchief in a back pocket.Nor do they (generally) remove their hats indoors. Actually, this fascinates me -- a handkerchief, while no longer the preferred method of dealing with nasal discharge, is quite a useful tool to keep handy. Think of it as a miniature towel, if you will (tie-in to Douglas Adams). But it's pretty obvious by looking at some of what's in fashion among teenagers that practical value is a very low priority.
Take care,
cb
--
Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
"Technology and air power are integrally and synergistically
related." - P Meilinger, "Ten Propositions Regarding Air Power"
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-21 06:48:04 PST
On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:43:42 -0400, "Christopher A. Bohn" <bohn@zeta.cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>> 28. Males do not carry a handkerchief in a back pocket. > >Nor do they (generally) remove their hats indoors. Actually, thisExcept of course for us military types and our recently released ex-brethren who had it ingrained so deeply into our psyche by large screaming drill types that you NEVER wear headgear indoors that we're still trying to recover from the trauma. :)
--
John M. Atkinson
SPC (P) USA
A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the
safety of the body politic of which he is a member,
defending it, if need be, with his life. The
civilian does not."
--Robert A. Heinlein
On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:44:30 GMT, in message <3d8c7771.146265118@news-server.hot.rr.com> John M. Atkinson wrote:
>Except of course for us military types and our recently released >ex-brethren who had it ingrained so deeply into our psyche by large >screaming drill types that you NEVER wear headgear indoors that we're >still trying to recover from the trauma. :)IIRC the exception to this rule was while you were armed and on duty. I could be wrong, been a long time.
--
Pete LaGrange
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-21 08:38:01 PST
Pete LaGrange <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote:
>John M. Atkinson wrote: >>Except of course for us military types and our recently released >>ex-brethren who had it ingrained so deeply into our psyche by large >>screaming drill types that you NEVER wear headgear indoors that we're >>still trying to recover from the trauma. :) >IIRC the exception to this rule was while you were armed and on duty. >I could be wrong, been a long time."Under Arms" is not necessarily armed. It can be simply wearing the duty belt [usually your standard issue web pistol belt, but sometimes it's something fancy] that reflects your "on-duty" status as duty NCO, OOD, or whatever.
But you are correct, one is always covered, outdoors or indoors, when under arms. At least in the naval service, it's been too long since my Army brat days so I've forgotten what they do.
OJ III
[Other than saluting indoors, anathema to any naval service member not under arms.]
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-21 19:26:03 PST
On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:35:05 -0400, Ogden Johnson III <oj3@cpcug.org> wrote:
>Pete LaGrange <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>John M. Atkinson wrote: >>>Except of course for us military types and our recently released >>>ex-brethren who had it ingrained so deeply into our psyche by large >>>screaming drill types that you NEVER wear headgear indoors that we're >>>still trying to recover from the trauma. :) >>IIRC the exception to this rule was while you were armed and on duty. >>I could be wrong, been a long time. > >"Under Arms" is not necessarily armed. It can be simply wearing the >duty belt [usually your standard issue web pistol belt, but sometimes >it's something fancy] that reflects your "on-duty" status as duty NCO, >OOD, or whatever. > >But you are correct, one is always covered, outdoors or indoors, when >under arms. At least in the naval service, it's been too long since >my Army brat days so I've forgotten what they do. > >OJ III >[Other than saluting indoors, anathema to any naval service member not >under arms.]and for at least some police officers...if they are there on official business, they keep their hats on in doors...
if they are there to visit and enjoy some coffee, the hats come off...
this presumes that their department *has* a hat policy...
ck
-- country doc in louisiana (no fancy sayings right now)
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-22 08:32:03 PST
In article <f24qoucapdtvvg1e9avg6ir38iml5t3gfd@4ax.com>, krin135@aol.invalid.com wrote:
> > and for at least some police officers...if they are there on official > business, they keep their hats on in doors...Usually for the very practical reason of leaving both hands free.
> > if they are there to visit and enjoy some coffee, the hats come off... > > this presumes that their department *has* a hat policy...And it's yet another question if their department has a cat policy. My dear departed Chatterly seemed to like uniforms, or maybe it was the smell of gun oil. If any police officer sat down in the house, she was immediately in their lap and rubbing their face. One one occasion, this caused a hat to become increasingly askew.
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-22 15:30:02 PST
On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:35:05 -0400, Ogden Johnson III <oj3@cpcug.org> wrote:
>>IIRC the exception to this rule was while you were armed and on duty. >>I could be wrong, been a long time. > >"Under Arms" is not necessarily armed. It can be simply wearing the >duty belt [usually your standard issue web pistol belt, but sometimes >it's something fancy] that reflects your "on-duty" status as duty NCO, >OOD, or whatever. > >But you are correct, one is always covered, outdoors or indoors, when >under arms. At least in the naval service, it's been too long since >my Army brat days so I've forgotten what they do.(promotion board answer): First Sergeant, under arms means carrying a weapon by the sling, by the handle, or in a holster.
>OJ III >[Other than saluting indoors, anathema to any naval service member not >under arms.]Or when reporting to a board, court-martial, commander, or a pay officer. Who is the only person NOT required to return a salute regardless of what he is otherwise doing with his hands.
--
John M. Atkinson
SPC (P) USA
A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the
safety of the body politic of which he is a member,
defending it, if need be, with his life. The
civilian does not."
--Robert A. Heinlein
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-22 08:21:49 PST
"David M. Silver" announces:
> Heinlein Readers' Group Chats > October 10 and 12, 2002 > Back to School > The Juveniles, Another Look -- > How to Teach Them? > > Book 1 -- Rocket Ship Galileo >Oh good! I have been missing our chats. Copy in hand, notebook on knee, pen in hand. Ready to read...
Elizabeth
(after tonight's shift and then I am on VACATION)
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-22 08:30:06 PST
Jer..., er, "David M. Silver" wrote:
>Heinlein Readers' Group Chats >October 10 and 12, 2002 >Back to School >The Juveniles, Another Look -- >How to Teach Them? [BIG snip]Do we *want* to teach them? IME, analysing books in school tended to kill all interest in them; I always made a point of trying to read them before we got around to doing them in class - in the case of "Great Expectations", I failed to do so. It bores me, even now.
Simon
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-23 10:48:15 PST
"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message news:3D8BCB9B.9070008@verizon.net...
>Heinlein Readers' Group Chats >October 10 and 12, 2002 >Back to School >The Juveniles, Another Look -- >How to Teach Them? >But mechanics, contractual issues, and finding a publisher actually >willing to go to print with the teachers editions aside, the one thing >each separate juvenile novel needs is what I'll call for the purposes of >this exercise a teaching critique -- more than merely an outline, but a >wholehearted examination from which the bones of a comprehensive >teaching outline, both for student and teacher, might be produced. By >that I mean an examination of what's in there for each novel, what >teaching points exist to be used in each novel? We've been through the >juveniles before -- once over lightly you might say, but never with this >single-minded viewpoint exclusively: what would I teach, if I were >restricted to using one of Heinlein's juveniles as the major text, to >older grammar or secondary students? > > >David M. Silver >www.heinleinsociety.orgDave,
Wanna try again? Take that, up there, apart and say what it is you're wanting to teach, please. That is, you say you're starting to teach to about 6th graders, right? Teach what?
Reading?
Writing?
Political science?
History?
Science?
Sex education?
Don't be doing the shysters' shimmy, now. Come out and say where RSG fits into the academic curriculum of public schools. Personally, I think you're asking for trouble if you do this. I think the fiction ought to stay in the library where we've always kept it and suggested, with discretion, by individual teachers to illustrate different aspects of subjects under consideration. No Heinlein's a good textbook for any one thing except a course about Heinlein. Show me a public school system with the bucks for such a class--much less a class for each novel.
LNC
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-23 11:26:01 PST
"cmaj7dmin7" <reilloc@sbcglobal.net>wrote in message news:BoIj9.82$WA2.48444583@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message >news:3D8BCB9B.9070008@verizon.net... >>Heinlein Readers' Group Chats >>October 10 and 12, 2002 >>Back to School >>The Juveniles, Another Look -- >>How to Teach Them? >>But mechanics, contractual issues, and finding a publisher actually >>willing to go to print with the teachers editions aside, the one thing >>each separate juvenile novel needs is what I'll call for the purposes of >>this exercise a teaching critique -- more than merely an outline, but a >>wholehearted examination from which the bones of a comprehensive >>teaching outline, both for student and teacher, might be produced. By >>that I mean an examination of what's in there for each novel, what >>teaching points exist to be used in each novel? We've been through the >>juveniles before -- once over lightly you might say, but never with this >>single-minded viewpoint exclusively: what would I teach, if I were >>restricted to using one of Heinlein's juveniles as the major text, to >>older grammar or secondary students? >> >> >>David M. Silver >>www.heinleinsociety.org > >Dave, > >Wanna try again? Take that, up there, apart and say what it is you're >wanting to teach, please. That is, you say you're starting to teach to about >6th graders, right? Teach what? > >Reading? >Writing? >Political science? >History? >Science? >Sex education?It is my understanding that we are talking about using Heinlein in a course such as Literature. You know, something like what is done with the works of Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, H.G. Wells, George Eliot, James Fennimore Cooper, Herman Melville, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Earnest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edgar Rice Burroughs, L. Framk Baum, C. S. Forester, Dorothy L. Sayers and others.
Yes, IMNSHO, I do believe that Heinlein is up there with the best of them.
David Wright
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-23 14:20:09 PST
David Wright wrote:
>"cmaj7dmin7" <reilloc@sbcglobal.net>wrote in message >news:BoIj9.82$WA2.48444583@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > > >>"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message >>news:3D8BCB9B.9070008@verizon.net... >> >> >>>Heinlein Readers' Group Chats >>>October 10 and 12, 2002 >>>Back to School >>>The Juveniles, Another Look -- >>>How to Teach Them? >>> >>> >>>But mechanics, contractual issues, and finding a publisher actually >>>willing to go to print with the teachers editions aside, the one thing >>>each separate juvenile novel needs is what I'll call for the purposes of >>>this exercise a teaching critique [snip the rest] . . . >>> >>> >>Dave, >> >>Wanna try again? Take that, up there, apart and say what it is you're >>wanting to teach, please. That is, you say you're starting to teach to >> >> >about > > >>6th graders, right? Teach what? >> >>Reading? >>Writing? >>Political science? >>History? >>Science? >>Sex education? >> >> > >It is my understanding that we are talking about using Heinlein in a course >such as Literature. You know, something like what is done with the works of >Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, H.G. Wells, George Eliot, James Fennimore >Cooper, Herman Melville, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Earnest Hemingway, F. Scott >Fitzgerald, Edgar Rice Burroughs, L. Framk Baum, C. S. Forester, Dorothy L. >Sayers and others. > >Yes, IMNSHO, I do believe that Heinlein is up there with the best of them. > >David Wright >Yes, but . . . I'm trying to recall myself how teachers used the tales we read to teach. Probably the most impressive story to us we read in my fifth-grade "reading" class was Hale's "The Man Without a Country." That was a parochial school, fall 1952 I think, maybe even the winter before, and not only was the Eisenhower election looming -- and we were aware of it -- but the Korean War still being fought.
I recall the nun let us ramble on about the tale: a fairly long while, about loyalty to a society, to one's oath, redemption, patriotism, she explained who Aaron Burr was, and also explained that the story was written during the American Civil War, when the same issues were important, and, not too suprisingly for a Catholic school, she also interjected a little about rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's, etc., as well. The fairness of the 'justice' imposed was the overwhelming topic of controversy in that tale.
I cannot recall if we had started receiving back prisoners-of-war, by then; but they certainly arrived shortly, including those who had been 'brain-washed' and signed 'confessions' or otherwise cooperated with their captors, and I often thought about that tale in the years after.
So, in summary, what did she teach us? History, a little bit about civics, something about morality, law and punishment for crimes, somewhat of an overview about 'social issues,' personal responsibility, and of course a bit about religious morality. All things that literature can intrude into a bare class on "reading" for ten-year-olds.
I'd think that good teachers teach pretty well whatever the story affords an opening for, as this one did.
Do they still? Sister Mary Felicitas, IHM, wasn't about to teach us heresy, but I think she was pretty secure in allowing us to roam about in any other area. Are they still?
David
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-23 14:50:03 PST
David M. Silver wrote:
>[snip] > >>Yes, but . . . I'm trying to recall myself how teachers used the >>tales we read to teach. Probably the most impressive story to us we >>read in my fifth-grade "reading" class was Hale's "The Man Without a >>Country." > [snip]
From a post I made back in April this year:
"'The Man Without A Country' anthologized 1917 in the Harvard Classics
Shelf of Fiction, Volume X, Part 6. There's even a piece of litcrit included if you care to read it.
http://www.bartleby.com/310/6/1.html"
David
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-09-23 13:42:11 PST
cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
>"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message >news:3D8BCB9B.9070008@verizon.net... > > >>Heinlein Readers' Group Chats >>October 10 and 12, 2002 >>Back to School >>The Juveniles, Another Look -- >>How to Teach Them? >> >> > > > >>But mechanics, contractual issues, and finding a publisher actually >>willing to go to print with the teachers editions aside, the one thing >>each separate juvenile novel needs is what I'll call for the purposes of >>this exercise a teaching critique -- more than merely an outline, but a >>wholehearted examination from which the bones of a comprehensive >>teaching outline, both for student and teacher, might be produced. By >>that I mean an examination of what's in there for each novel, what >>teaching points exist to be used in each novel? We've been through the >>juveniles before -- once over lightly you might say, but never with this >>single-minded viewpoint exclusively: what would I teach, if I were >>restricted to using one of Heinlein's juveniles as the major text, to >>older grammar or secondary students? >> >> >>David M. Silver >>www.heinleinsociety.org >> >> > >Dave, > >Wanna try again? Take that, up there, apart and say what it is you're >wanting to teach, please. That is, you say you're starting to teach to about >6th graders, right? Teach what? > >Reading? >Writing? >Political science? >History? >Science? >Sex education? > >Don't be doing the shysters' shimmy, now. Come out and say where RSG fits > >Don't be doing the shysters' shimmy, now. Come out and say where RSG fits >into the academic curriculum of public schools. Personally, I think you're >asking for trouble if you do this. I think the fiction ought to stay in the >library where we've always kept it and suggested, with discretion, by >individual teachers to illustrate different aspects of subjects under >consideration. No Heinlein's a good textbook for any one thing except a >course about Heinlein. Show me a public school system with the bucks for >such a class--much less a class for each novel. > >LNC >That's a fair set of questions, and it forces me to think back a lot of years. The disadvantage most of us who are not teachers suffer is we only went through our classes one time. How did our teachers integrate, if they did at all, the reading of anything into other classes?
It seems to me it might be helpful to understand how "reading," or later "literature" is taught from late grammar school onward, not only today, but back when. Perhaps there are some differences that are crucial between then and now that we need recognize. Perhaps there really aren't, but we need to know what the distinctions may be, even if they are not differences.
In my experience I cannot be certain my earlier years are typical because I went to an experimental grammar school early on in Cleveland, Ohio (It was called Hazeldell Major Work Grammar School, and taught by faculty, presumably teaching students, and staff, on the grounds of Case-Western Reserve University; and they cherry-picked kids who tested very high I.Q.s out of the Cleveland public schools to attend it.), so I'm going to leave anything before the fifth grade out as possibly atypical, since it was.
By the fifth grade I was attending a parochial school in Los Angeles, taught by Roman Catholic nuns. Our parents were required to pay tuition and bought our books -- the books were ours to keep and we kept them around for years afterwards until they fell apart -- unless they were sold back, and my parents never sold books back. Setting aside the catechism and religious history, I found in later years that the books the parochial school were identical in some respects to those used in LAUSD public school classrooms, although I'm not certain they were used at the same grade levels we had them for. For example, we had an arithmetic workbook with problems suitable to the fifth grade; a world geography text (which included the United States) with various maps; a world history text; an United States history text; a very basic science text -- maybe natural history would be a better term, because it was really little more than a mini-encyclopedia of animals and plants -- most of these were exactly the same texts used in public schools in California at the time; and a reading anthology -- which wasn't exactly.
The reading anthology we used was a version by the same publishers for use in Roman Catholic parochial schools (including a few stories with religious themes by Catholic writers in addition to the generic tales the anthology regularly contained) of the same anthology I found being used two years later, in the public school junior high I entered after our family moved away from the East Hollywood parish where I had attended the parochial grammar school.
It contained various short stories classic for the time, e.g., Twain's Jumping Frog, a few Bret Harte tales, Hale's "The Man Without a Country," etc., the poetry we learned to recite as our parents and probably grandparents had: Poe's Raven, "The Boy Stood on the Burning Deck," "Hiawatha," and so on; and at least one probably heavily abridged Dickens novel: _David Copperfield_ in my recollection. I also recall some exerpted parts of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. It was a thick and pretty heavy book for a fifth grader to lug around. There were a lot of other stories and poems in it I no longer recall, and I think part or all of at least one more play.
We used the same "reading" book in the sixth grade, the next year. It was a big book as I said. Then, as noted, I found myself being issued a non-parochial version of the exact same text when I started public junior high two years later, and we also used it in eighth grade. Disappointing, since I'd already read everything in it, more than merely once. They called the class "English" or "English Grammar" by now; and we had different teachers for each class and moved from classroom to classroom, rather than having one nun teach everything in one classroom. But the public school teachers became as wise to me as the nuns had been, quickly determining that I'd read all the stories and knew them fairly well, so when we'd have regular weekly trips to the school library from that class, I'd find myself taken in hand by the librarian along with others of my ilk, and being told to pick and check out supplemental reading for "book reports." Back then, perhaps as even exist today, some teachers didn't worry much about pupil self-esteem, and had within their classes different tracks -- fast learners, average learners, slow learners; and those of us to 'read ahead' or 'worked ahead' were rewarded with additional assignments. We read and reported on juvenile novels in the seventh and eight grades. You submitted a written report (done to a specified format) to the teacher; and then an oral one to the class. It was pretty much the same in both seventh and eighth grades. I remember during those two years doing one on one of the "Little House on the Prairie" series, one on Jim Kjelgaard's series of books on dogs, some on a series of biographies of American figures (David Crockett, Thomas Edison, etc.), and one -- I had to talk to the teacher about it first, and the librarian also talked to her for me -- on Farmer in the Sky, which I think was just out new. I remember explaining to the class about Malthus in that oral report.
Ninth grade was another change: back to a parochial high school as a freshman and, in my case, the school was a boarding school, taught by the Salesians, where they had us at their mercies twenty-four hours a day, including mandatory two and three-hour study halls, nightly, unless we went out for sports; and believe me, we read when we finished our assignments -- there was nothing else you could do. They found you in study hall doodling or something on your papers after you finished your assignments (God Save You if it was before!), they handed you a book to read "for extra credit," and told you when the report was due.
We had options, of course -- all the way down to being expelled; but you don't need to know about them. Corporeal punishment was alive and doing quite well, thank you, in parochial schools in the 1950s.
After the ninth grade it was back to a pretty good public high school, pretty typical of what is portrayed in Have Space Suit--Will Travel, less the slogan writing and other nonsense RAH noted, for the school I attended had an 'old school' faculty and administration; and it graduated scholars, or its pupils didn't graduate. We had the same anthology (without the religious stories) they'd used in the Catholic High School I'd attended; and we were issued novels to read, some paperbacks (and purchased sometimes I suspect by teachers from their own funds -- bear in mind a paperback cost about $0.35 a copy then, so a class of thirty or so would cost about $10.00. Teachers made about $4,000 annually back then) and some hard bound.
I've laid this out, not because I think it was an exemplar of anything in particular, but to see what comment, what comparisons or contrasts might be noted by others, to enable some of us to better understand the difficulties we might have in suggesting that Heinlein juveniles might be adopted as teaching texts, today.
We have an extra week here, while everyone is digging out a copy of Galileo. What differences do we know exist with respect to ["wrt"] teaching "reading" or anything else at the late grammar school through high school levels today, or more recently than the 1950s?
What else do we need to know? Any teachers out there? Speak up, please.
David
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-10-09 03:10:02 PST
David M. Silver wrote:
>[snip] > >Time andOn to the rest of the book . . . perhaps.Date: Thursday, October 10, 8 PM* to 11 PM*, ET and > Saturday, October 12, 5 PM to 8 PM, ET >Topic: Rocket Ship Galileo, creating a teacher's guide >Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat" > >Please use the link you'll find on the Links page of >www.heinleinsociety.org to help yourself into the chatroom. > >**Please note that I've done two things, here. I've moved the hour for >the Thursday meetings up one hour to accommodate our East Coast and >possibly European readers a bit; and I've set the meeting for three >weeks off to give everyone a good opportunity to obtain a copy of the >book. > >RSGalileo is temporarily out-of-print. If you haven't a copy, a search >today of www.abebooks.com revealed currently 110 copies of it for >sale, ranging from collectors' prices for near perfect first editions >(don't ask) down to the $2 or $3 or $10 range for paperbacks in >various condition. I've used Abebooks. Takes about 3 days usually to >receive an order by mail, which should be quite sufficient. > >As ever, please post your thoughts on the topic. The more posts, the >better our chats will be. And we'll be very happy to see as many of >you as possible in the threads that follow and at the chats. > >David M. Silver >www.heinleinsociety.org
There's more than one or two distractions tucked away in Chapter II of RSG, rather directly titled "A Man-Sized Challenge," aside from its role in carrying forward the "Young Atomic Scientists Go To the Moon" plot. I have to confess I've been sent off on a tangent somewhat by one of them.
This was Heinlein's first juvenile, so knowing what will come means it's not too much of a surprise to find loose ends, hints of thematic concerns that may continue to be expressed in later juveniles and other writings.
One such is an overall theme of searching for a proper theory of education itself.
That may tie into an overall approach of "teaching" from Heinlein juveniles we might consider.
That may tie into an overall approach of "teaching" from Heinlein juveniles we might consider.
The three young men who will be for this novel and, perhaps, were to have been the continuing characters of the juvenile series, had circumstances continued per the earlier plan, are what remains of a "Galileo Club" of adolescent rocket hobbyists that has been in existence, we are told, several years. Older members however have moved away, gone off to college, or are in military service. These three only remain, and they haven't bothered to recruit new members. Their club is dying. After they finish this summer, and they're all planning to leave at the end of their summer to attend college, there won't be a Galileo Club. Why?
Their failure to recruit new members is explained simply to Doctor Cargraves by Ross, "We work well together and ... you know how it is." How is it? Cargraves thinks he knows more explicitly than the boy. The three are doing serious work; most of their classmates, even though mechanically minded, would be more interested in needling a stripped down car up to one hundred miles an hour than in keeping careful notes.
What made these kids different? Maybe three, perhaps only two-and-one-half, factors. They had the example of the older boys, very likely with some adult help and mentorship, who founded the club - all gone on to adulthood now - that they followed. Someway, however, these three have found lacking an urgency or direction in their own, only a bit younger generation. The time this novel is set perhaps explains it. It is a good ten years after it was written - somewhat more than ten years since the end of a war in which young men their age actually fought and died to "save the world for democracy."
Heinlein wasn't too far off on this point in his early predications about the real world this one just missed being, was he? Despite the intervention of another war ("UnWarI" as Oscar Gordon would call it, "The Forgotten War" as a recent history labels it that was held in Korea), by the late 1950s it was true that typical teens seem to have been far more concerned with who got to dance on American Bandstand (or Art LaBeau's Make Believe Ballroom for we Left Coast types), who "wore short shorts," and what could be done to a 1957 Chevy to keep it from being "shut down" by a stripped down and hopped up old Ford dragging out of a stoplight than they were with any space race -- there wasn't one to speak of: the Army kept blowing up old V-2s and trying to make the Wac Corporal fly somewhere in Arizona or New Mexico. The world was complacent. Every working man's child was going to go to college and, absent the nuclear war that only those few obligatory pessimists every society has to have actually believed would happen, we were all going to
Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-10-09 16:30:50 PST
David M. Silver wrote:
[snip]
> >On to the rest of the book . . . perhaps. > >There's more than one or two distractions tucked away in Chapter II of >RSG, rather directly titled "A Man-Sized Challenge," aside from its >role in carrying forward the "Young Atomic Scientists Go To the Moon" >plot. I have to confess I've been sent off on a tangent somewhat by >one of them.Another distraction is the book Cargraves finds among the Galileo Club's library, and keeps reading throughout the chapter.
The Project Gutenberg Etext of When the World Shook by H. Rider Haggard is available on-line. So I downloaded and read it. Having read the four pages of notes Heinlein submitted to Campbell, preliminary to writing Methuselah's Children, while at UC Santa Cruz in September at ConJosé, I now understand a little bit more about sources for that story.
When the World Shook involves a long-lived spin-off of Homo Sap that ends up ruling the world, and the problems that sub-species encountered
-- as many of the Haggard novels do, so I am told.
> >[snip] >Isn't that a lesson plan topic too? > >Lots of chapters thus far untouched: two days to go to the chat. >Anyone want to take a shot at anything in the novel? Anything at all? > >DMS
From: Jeff Edwards (orion23@san.rr.com)Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-10-10 15:46:01 PST
When and where does this chat take place? I take it that it's some time today or tonight?
--Jeff ________________________________________________________________ "That which is static and repetitive is boring. That which is dynamic and random is confusing. In between lies art." -- John A. Locke
From: David M. Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)Subject: Re: RAH Reading Group chats 10-10 & 12 -- "Back to School" -- The Juveniles: Rocket Ship Galileo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-10-10 16:50:03 PST
Jeff Edwards wrote:
>When and where does this chat take place? I take it that it's some time >today or tonight? >--Jeff > >________________________________________________________________ >"That which is static and repetitive is boring. That which is dynamic and >random is confusing. In between lies art." >-- John A. LockeTime and Date: Thursday, October 10, 8 PM* to 11 PM*, ET and Saturday, October 12, 5 PM to 8 PM, ET Topic: Rocket Ship Galileo, creating a teacher's guide Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"Please use the link you'll find on the Links page of www.heinleinsociety.org to help yourself into the chatroom.
That begins in about fifteen minutes from my sending this e-mail. Don't worry about showing up late. You'll need to download AIM software. E-mail me if you have problems.
-- David M. Silver http://www.heinleinsociety.org http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."
robertljoseph has entered the room.
Reilloc: Dave, is this the right place, time, etc.?
DavidWrightSr: Yes, LN. Hi Joseph. If you will click on File above and then create shortcut. it will place a link on your desktop to get in automatically
robertljoseph: Thanks. and get well soon.
DavidWrightSr: LN. the chat starts at 8:00 edt
Reilloc: Shows how well I read.
DavidWrightSr: rob did you set up your shortcut?
Reilloc: The Saturday session's the early one, then?
DavidWrightSr: Yes; 5:00 PM
Reilloc: I think 8:00 EDT's 7:00 here so I'll be back in a hour or so...
Reilloc: Thanks, Dave...see you then.
Reilloc has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Rob. be careful of the ESC key. It will pop you right out of the program
DavidWrightSr: If you have created your shortcut, try exiting and using it to get back in
DavidWrightSr: Man I feel rotten
robertljoseph: I'm in via the shortcut. Hope you're taking your medicine.
DavidWrightSr: Great. I've got to get something to eat and take my nightly dose of pills. See ya later.
DavidWrightSr: I'll be online but afk, (that's away-from-keyboard).
robertljoseph has left the room.
robertljoseph has entered the room.
AGplusone has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi David
AGplusone: Hi, Dave
AGplusone: and Robert Joseph
DavidWrightSr: I'm feeling very rotten tonight, so I doubt that I will participate much.
DavidWrightSr: Rob may be afk for now.
AGplusone: Maybe the chat will cheer you up
TreetopAngelRN has entered the room.
aggirlj has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: I've been running a fever off and on for a couple of days
DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane.
aggirlj: Hi everyone.
AGplusone: Hi, Elizabeth, Jane
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Jane, David S, David w and Robert
AGplusone: Had tea with lots of lemon and brandy is my solution
DavidWrightSr: Hi Elizabeth
aggirlj: I'm microwaving as we speak with a nice Cianti.
aggirlj: Hi Elizabeth.
DavidWrightSr: If Rob comes back, I'll introduce him. He may be afk.
TreetopAngelRN: Fever? David W
DavidWrightSr: Yes
DavidWrightSr: and chills and my sugar is all over the place.
AGplusone: sore throat?
TreetopAngelRN: lots of fluids?
DavidWrightSr: No, Slava Bogu
DavidWrightSr: I try Elizabeth
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: Welcome Bill
TreetopAngelRN: it's difficult, but it would help regulate your sugars
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Bill!
BPRAL22169: Hi -- Is it my imagination, or is it a little early?
DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I know
AGplusone: Scheduled it an hour early
BPRAL22169: Thanks, David. I didn't expect to find anyone here -- I just signed on to tell you my computer service guy is going to be here at 6 so I wouldn't be able to make it.
TreetopAngelRN: this early and then I have time to do laundry, drat:-[
AGplusone: well, you get to make it until he comes ... :-)
BPRAL22169: He was supposed to be here at 5:00 -- oh, well.
AGplusone: what's he trying to fix?
AGplusone: How's this font btw?
BPRAL22169: The thing is acting like it's got another major virus infection, but the Virus Protection says no.
BPRAL22169: Very bold.
DavidWrightSr: Which virus program do you use
AGplusone: I can unbold
BPRAL22169: Norton Antivirus
AGplusone: what flavor windows
DavidWrightSr: Thats' good. If it were the bugbear virus, it should catch it, if you have kept up to date on your updates.
BPRAL22169: ME. Is that Trebuchet font, David?
AGplusone: Comic Sans
BPRAL22169: Your font seems very similar to mine.
BPRAL22169: It's been escalating for the last 3 weeks, so it's clearly beyond my ability to deal with it.
BPRAL22169: I even ran the FixKlez patch last night, to no avail.
BPRAL22169: Yes, my last update was on 10/2
AGplusone: Watch for "Jeff Edwards" btw. He posted a "How do I get into the chat" about 90 minutes ago.
DavidWrightSr: what's his screen name?
BPRAL22169: OK -- I just noticed Ron Harrison signed off.
aggirlj: What's the best antivirus for Mac's?
AGplusone: Have no idea .... "orion23@san.rr.com"
BPRAL22169: Macs aren't targeted very much by viruses.
aggirlj: Good!
pjscott100 has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: Most make use of MSIE
AGplusone: Norton works fine, Jane. Buy the Symantic SystemWorks 2.0 package.
BPRAL22169: Hello, Peter.
AGplusone: Hi, Peter.
pjscott100: Bill, David, David
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Peter
AGplusone: It'll give you a package of software that includes some other stuff you'll need.
aggirlj: Thanks. And Hi Peter.
AGplusone: To rebuild the software package occasionally, etc.
BPRAL22169: Let's see, before it slips my mind, I'm in the middle of transcribing the Publishers Weekly interview with Heinlein, July 1973.
jilyd has entered the room.
AGplusone: That was taped, or videotaped?
DavidWrightSr: Are you planning on having it in an upcoming issue?
DavidWrightSr: Hi Dee
pjscott100: Hi Elizabeth
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Dee!
AGplusone: Welcome Dee
aggirlj: Hi Dee.
pjscott100: aggirlj, have we met?
BPRAL22169: No, it appeared in the magazine. No plans to reprint, but I let people know when a new piece of Heinleinia comes available in electronic versions.
jilyd: Evening, all.
aggirlj: On the newsgroups.
pjscott100: Ah
jilyd: aggirl is Jane, David S.'s sis.
pjscott100: Hi Jane
AGplusone: wiser nicer sister
aggirlj: Only sister.
TreetopAngelRN: He had me wondering if he had another sister...
Reilloc has entered the room.
aggirlj: You too.
AGplusone: 'kay ... how many missing Galileo? or did everyone find a copy?
jilyd: I don't know whether to be sarcastic or sacharine, David.
aggirlj: Got one, read it.
DavidWrightSr: Folks. I'd like to introduce Robert Joseph. he is a sf author who lives near me in North Georgia. Rob, AGplusone, (David Silver), TreeTop(Elizabeth), aggirlg(Jane who is David Silver's sister), BPral(Bill Patterson), more....
jilyd: Hi, LN.
Reilloc: Hi, jilyd
AGplusone: sacharine doesn't suit you, Dee. You'll have to stick with sarcasm.
DavidWrightSr: pjscott(Peter Scott), jilyd (Dee) and Reilloc(LN Collier)
aggirlj: Hi Robert J
AGplusone: Hi, LN.
Reilloc: Hi, Dave
AGplusone: 'for we start, Ginny's regrets ... she said she still needs a little extra sleep each day, but she may be able to make Saturdays.
DavidWrightSr: Now that I've introduced him, I am going to lie down and just check on you occasionally.
AGplusone: One reason I moved this meeting hour up was to see if I can entice her to make part of it as she gets stronger.
BPRAL22169: She's been signing off before 4 the last several weeks (PDT)
robertljoseph: I am a longtime fan of Heinlein, having read the juveniles when I was one way back when.
AGplusone: How long has that been Robert?
robertljoseph: I am 59 so u do the math.
aggirlj: You're no Stranger here.
AGplusone: Another youngster.
AGplusone: :-)
TreetopAngelRN: aw c'mon, I'll be old in a couple of weeks
AGplusone: David Wright and I refer to each other as the "elder" and the "younger"
jilyd: Yeah, but everyone's a youngster to you two Davids, even me. :-)
AGplusone: He's 62 (last time I checked, I think), I'm 60 ...
BPRAL22169: Feel like Jubal Harshaw yet, David?
robertljoseph: Well, we were all young once and we will all be old once too.
AGplusone: Ah, that's the Dee I know and love.
aggirlj: Now my mother said a lady never told her age, but there's 20 months between David S an I.
jilyd: Beats hell out of the alternative, doesn't it, Robert?
AGplusone: About Galileo ... is it as bad as you expected it to be .... "dated" and all that?
aggirlj: Not at all. Great read.
robertljoseph: I don't know, if the alternative turns out to be what I hope it will be.
TreetopAngelRN: Not that dated.
AGplusone: Why do you feel that, Jane?
jilyd: Good read, but not one of the ones I am drawn back to again and again.
aggirlj: Especially if you read it and suspend knowledge and reality.
AGplusone: It's an alternative future we never quite made, isn't it?
aggirlj: No one's building 'em in their backyard yet that I know of.
jilyd: Robert, I meant of course, in this world. :-)
AGplusone: We had the Cold War ... and dissipation of our efforts into a lot of things ....
TreetopAngelRN: true
robertljoseph: That's the thing about fiction, it doesn't always have to mirror reality.
BPRAL22169: Truax is!
pjscott100: my machine is slightly hosed... biab
pjscott100 has left the room.
AGplusone: But it would have been great to have seen atomic rockets by the end of the 1950s.
aggirlj: Who;s Trua?
aggirlj: Truax.
jilyd: I can see it as a "could have been" very easily.
BPRAL22169: Radical rocket builder -- his thing is you don't need the extreme tolerances NASA and the military uses; he carts a 30 ft. rocket around to various places to demonstrate.
aggirlj: Interesting. I'm not up on all of it.
BPRAL22169: He's a very interesting guy -- worth looking up online.
AGplusone: part of the fun of reading Galileo after all these years is tracking the alternatives ...
aggirlj: I liked and understood the Nazi element on the moon. Too little of it.
BPRAL22169: "Robert Truax was one of the great originals of American rocketry and a major proponent and inventor of ultra-low-cost rocket engine and vehicle concepts. "
BPRAL22169: Opening words of: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/truax.htm
[Editor's Note: This is not the URL given by Bill Patterson, but was found on a search]
TreetopAngelRN: we need to respark that curiosity in space travel again
pjscott100 has entered the room.
aggirlj: Ahm, what about the space station?
jilyd: But how much interest does "fighting Nazi's" have for youngsters today. When I was a kid, young boys loved WWII movies and playing soldier. Do they still?
aggirlj: Out of my realm.
TreetopAngelRN: thing is Jane, I don't know that many kids who are interested in it...don't know many who play 'war' anymore either
BPRAL22169: WWII movies are still being made. Windtalkers showed this past year.
robertljoseph: I enjoyed Heinlein because he usually created scenarios that didn't necessarily match the mores of the day and I enjoyed his juveniles without worrying about whether he got all the technical stuff correct.
AGplusone: We'd have to ask someone like Sarah Hoyt, who will be here Saturday. she's got kids still at that age.
aggirlj: Just gangbangers and such.
AGplusone: But did he make a good stab at it, Robert? Would that cam auto-pilot have worked?
TreetopAngelRN: exactly, even in Montana
AGplusone: I think it probably would have.
aggirlj: Liked Joe the computer if I'm not misnaming.
robertljoseph: someone said man can think it he can achieve it.
AGplusone: Would the station they constructed have worked. It reminded me a little of the shelter the boy scout troop puts up on "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon" one of the boy scout short stories.
robertljoseph: U just have to have a good imagination.
aggirlj: Seemed like it could. Sealed up .
TreetopAngelRN: I think it would work
jilyd: So, if the idea is to interest youngsters, is some WWII background involved, too? Or can they be interested in the space story without paying much attention to the Nazi story?
AGplusone: Can the low-tech solution work? Like the Traux rocket Bill mentioned.
TreetopAngelRN: yes, and much preferred to a high-tech
robertljoseph: I believe though the Nazi's date it, most people can understand the setting and the time
AGplusone: We played Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone more than just a little when I grew up.
aggirlj: And the Long Ranger and Tonto.
robertljoseph: I lost my coonskin cap early
aggirlj: Lone Ranger.
AGplusone: Frederick Forsythe wrote a pretty good Odessa File that didn't seem too dated.
BPRAL22169: During the sixties a number of moon stories were written with Russian enemies on the Moon. We've run out of credible enemies.
AGplusone: And the Boys From Brazil was a best seller.
aggirlj: That's where Osama is!
robertljoseph: I think your forgetting the terrorists.
TreetopAngelRN: now we have credible competition
pjscott100: Maybe the next enemies of youth myth will be Al Queda
BPRAL22169: It's hard to think of Osama bin Laden making an HQ in a lunar crater.
AGplusone: very possibly
robertljoseph: Remember Doc Smith used Space pirates.
AGplusone: King David's Spaceship ....
jilyd: Could be, but it will be a different kind of story form high tech, I think.
BPRAL22169: This story was written at the end of 1945
TreetopAngelRN: with the Al Queda we are back to fighting among the trees and rocks, not space
aggirlj: Little levity.
robertljoseph: There u go, mixing fiction with reality and expecting it to work.
pjscott100: True. That's what happens when you outdistance the rest of the world technologically
AGplusone: But we fought the Nazi's among trees and rockets as well as from the place where von Braun was building V-1s and V-2s
aggirlj: Again?
robertljoseph: I know an author who tries to never reference current events so her readers can't tell when she wrote it.
jilyd: Rockets on the brain, AG?
BPRAL22169: I think the problem is, from a literary perspective, we dont' have a myth to work with -- the myth will specify the enemy.
TreetopAngelRN: bingo!
pjscott100: eh? are you saying we've run out of myths?
jilyd: It must be hard for an outhor to try to figure out which current references will have any meaning after some time has passed.
AGplusone: Heinlein got away from "an enemy" didn't he, in the rest of the juveniles? he found the enemy, if there was one, was us.
AGplusone: Like Pogo
BPRAL22169: Yes, pretty much, Peter.
robertljoseph: Usually good authors create their own enemies.
AGplusone: The cheats, fakers and takers.
jilyd: I agree. One reason I am not sure RG is the best introduction to RAH for youngsters.
pjscott100: for sure
TreetopAngelRN: which would you prefer, Dee?
AGplusone: Did anyone notice reading Galileo how fast Dr. Cargraves recoiled from any hint of patent infringement?
robertljoseph: The trouble is you are trying to reinvent history. People can accept historical works.
aggirlj: I wanted more exposition, a little more details. But of course I love reading Michener too.
jilyd: I think it might be better appreciated later in the chain, after they are 'hooked." (Want to try this? No charge. ;-))
BPRAL22169: I got hooked on Farmer In the Sky and Starman Jones, but most people say it was Have Space Suit that did it for them.
pjscott100: It ought to appeal to fans of October Sky (movie)
robertljoseph: I love reading everything but Stephan King horror.
AGplusone: Do you think youngsters are better introduced to an institutionalized enemy, like "the Hun" or the "Commies" or the "KKK" Dee?
aggirlj: His earlier works were good when he had an editor.
jilyd: Space Cadet is one possibilty.
AGplusone: rather than the 'we have met the enemy and they is us' of Pogo?
BPRAL22169: He had the same editor in 1987 as he had in 1947
aggirlj: Not Heinlein, Michener.
aggirlj: King I mean.
BPRAL22169: Ah. Yes, I did find Michener growing . . . tedious.
robertljoseph: That editor had to be well experienced.
BPRAL22169: I find King grown tedious, too.
AGplusone: He slowed down a little at the end. Less interesting topics I thought.
AGplusone: Space Cadet, incidentally, is next up ...
aggirlj: My range is I Will Fear No Evil and Stranger . .
BPRAL22169: I dont know -- Space had an interhently interesting and dramatic subject, but he made it an awful tough chew.
jilyd: HSSWT is a great choice--lots of self-reliance and low-tech creativity, and the enemy is so completely "fictional."
robertljoseph: But those were later ones.
TreetopAngelRN: <<<checking shelf for Space Cadet
jilyd: Good choices, Jane, but I wouldn't recommend them for a grammar school setting.
aggirlj: My nose was buried in TV at the earlier stages. Books became friends later.
AGplusone: And we'll find they probably get better as they go ... they would have to, or they'd have gotten tedious for us.
pjscott100: I read the juveniles when so young as to not underestand they were by the same author
BPRAL22169: Space Cadet is one of my favorites -- and Forstchen showed the subject could still be sold, quite recently.
robertljoseph: One thing to remember is the students of today are more aware than most of us were at that age.
pjscott100: It was the Future History that got me realizing that there was a particular author to look out for
pjscott100: aware of what???
aggirlj: I think the age group for Galileo is grade school.
AGplusone: Boy, you were lucky, Peter. I knew who the author was and immediately read them, leaving me with only rereading until he wrote new ones. {which was okay}
jilyd: I am handicapped there, Bill. I didn't find the Heinlein juveniles until I was an adult. My first RAH was Stranger, in late jr. HS.
BPRAL22169: I think by "aware" RJ means "sophisticated."
robertljoseph: Of the world around us. WE DIDN'T HAVE CNN AND ALL THE REST.
Reilloc: Interesting.
pjscott100: Harrumph. I was reading the newspaper at a tender age.
AGplusone: No. we didn't, did we ... but do grammar school, or early middle school kids really pay much attention to CNN?
Reilloc: Lots of information means you're more aware...
aggirlj: Depends if mom and dad watch it.
pjscott100: None of yer tabloids, either. And the BBC news made CNN look like Jerry Springer.
TreetopAngelRN: I don't have Space Cadet=-O
Reilloc: I'll loan you my son.
BPRAL22169: I remember a lot of talk about the 1960 election.
robertljoseph: my 16 year-old is up on everything.
BPRAL22169: I was 9 at the time.
AGplusone: prepare to order . . . order.
AGplusone: Just as I remember the 1952 election. when I was ten
jilyd: Spoilsport.
aggirlj: I remember Ike.
AGplusone: Listened to a lot of argument about who was better ...
BPRAL22169: I think I may have a spare copy around somewhere...
AGplusone: Everyone liked Ike
pjscott100: Well... I remember Harold Wilson. Does that count?
robertljoseph: I actually saw President Kennedy just before he was shot.
aggirlj: Whoa.
Reilloc: I want to forget Bush--both of them.
BPRAL22169: In my grade school, the main topic of conversation was that Kennedy was a Catholic, and did we really want the Pope running the country.
pjscott100: I'd like to forget all three of them
robertljoseph: I remember that.
aggirlj: Yeah, yeah.
TreetopAngelRN: and there isn't one on the Book Exchange...you do Bill???
BPRAL22169: I have somewhat similar feelings, LNC. Similar to what I felt about Carter: just hunker down and get through it.
aggirlj: And from a Catholic, nee Pagan, who was gonna be a nun.
BPRAL22169: Hold on, I'll check.
Reilloc: Poor Jimmy.
jilyd: I remeber that, Bill, and other complaints about Kennedy here in Alabama.
Reilloc: He lusted in his heart after consensus.
AGplusone: While we, OTOH, were very proud of him.
AGplusone: Jack
aggirlj: He was a good guy and is still a good guy. Leave him alone.
aggirlj: Jimmy that is.
Reilloc: I liked him.
robertljoseph: I was working fot the Wall st. Journal and all the editorials were pro Goldwater, anti Kennedy. afterwards it did a 180.
Reilloc: I can still remember the "moral equivalent of war" speech.
AGplusone: I still remember "Ask not . . . "
Reilloc: The moral equivalent cost $1.39 a gallon around here.
robertljoseph: Me too.
aggirlj: $1.59 here.
AGplusone: Everyone remembers that, but they remembered and knew it was great from the very beginning.
Reilloc: Anyway, about those Nazis...
Reilloc: Ever notice how much slinging there is of the accusation in ng's other than afh?
robertljoseph: Heinlein wasn't the only one that used them as the patsies.
AGplusone: Yeah, them. I enjoyed Odessa File and Boys From Brazil, LN. Why wouldn't kids enjoy Nazis?
jilyd: Sorry, folks, gotta go. I may be able to check back, maybe not. have fun!
Reilloc: Enjoy? They were in Topeka a month ago.
TreetopAngelRN: Night Dee!
AGplusone: Too remote .... but pretty black and white ...
jilyd has left the room.
aggirlj: They'd have to believe they first of all existed and then that they did what they did.
Reilloc: Everybody enjoyed the carnival atmosphere.
AGplusone: well, enjoy may not be exactly the word
Reilloc: I know what you mean.
Reilloc: Compared to the monsters on PS2 and Gamecube, Nazis are tame.
TreetopAngelRN: you mean 'interested'
robertljoseph: I'm having a hard time keeping up.
TreetopAngelRN: me too!
pjscott100: I don't see how anyone could "enjoy" the modern Nazis... just a bunch of skinheads AFAICT
AGplusone: I wanted (hoped) we'd have Gampe here. Wondered whether the way they toned down Galileo for its first publication in Germany might be illustrative. I felt that Heinlein pretty well toned down the Nazis in Galileo.
BPRAL22169: I do have a paperback copy of Space Cadet here.
DavidWrightSr: They were never even called Nazis in the German edition.
aggirlj: Right. But then we were there. Knew about them.
TreetopAngelRN: are you willing to part with it, Bill?
Reilloc: What were they called, DAve?
robertljoseph: As I said earlier, the earlier books should be taken as period pieces in the context of the day.
AGplusone: Compared to how, for example, he wrote the Pan-Asians in Sixth Column
AGplusone: colume
BPRAL22169: Sure -- e-mail me your postal address and I'll send it out in a few days.
pjscott100: Not in the library, Elizabeth?
TreetopAngelRN: Oh thank you from the bottom of my heart!!!!!!!:-D
AGplusone: On the roster I mailed out last month, Bill
AGplusone: She joined just before ConJose
DavidWrightSr: Just Germans. And no mention of the Reich as I recall. I actually started reading the book in preparation for the chat in German until Elizabeth was kind enough to send me a copy.
TreetopAngelRN: not in the library, something I am working on remedying...
BPRAL22169: Send me an e-mail anyway, just so I don't forget it.
Reilloc: That's interesting...
Reilloc: It's almost editorially doing to a nation or a national origin what the Nazis did.
Reilloc: Villainizing the entire country.
AGplusone: Incidentally, there may be a group of books 'donated' shortly to the Society that we'll be able to send out to selected libraries that will appreciate them.
robertljoseph: Sounds great.
aggirlj: Robert J, if you get confused join the party. You have to type fast.
Dehede011 has entered the room.
pjscott100: And de-interleave the multiple threads...
robertljoseph: By the time I hit send, I am several conversations behind
Dehede011: We aren't on AIM anymore??
BPRAL22169: Yes, this is AIM
Reilloc: What is this, chopped liver?
AGplusone: They are apparently settling an infringement suit against a major thorn and part of the settlement is the stock goes to someone to give to libraries. Someone is going to be the Society
DavidWrightSr: If you were speaking to me, LN, No, they were just treated as a group of German thugs, not in reference to all germans.
Reilloc: Ah.
AGplusone: Ron, you can reach the same room now from AOL.
Dehede011: Beats me, I'm lost. LOL
AGplusone: It just looks a little different when on AOL
Reilloc: I don't need to run AIM, Sgt. Zim?
DavidWrightSr: You mean you don't have to have AIM if you are on AOL?
Dehede011: Okay, that is good
Reilloc: How do I get to this on AOL?
AGplusone: Same room name. but the rooms crummier
AGplusone: room's
Reilloc: Like, unswept and stuff?
aggirlj: LOL
AGplusone: not as good chairs ... bar's overpriced
BPRAL22169: That "crummier" is redundant: you just said it's AOL; that's sufficient.
TreetopAngelRN: dirty kleenex on the floor
AGplusone: spots of blood on the walls
robertljoseph: I'm curious. how many of you consider urselves authors?
BPRAL22169: I thought the flames took care of the blood?
aggirlj: All!
Dehede011: If I get quiet without warning I have only ran for the bathroom.
Reilloc: I may log on twice and use my SteveHeadCase AOL identity
pjscott100: <<<--- is an author
TreetopAngelRN: I am an author
BPRAL22169: Kleenex, too!
Dehede011: I'm a writer, I will only be an author after I sell. LOL
AGplusone: Then I'll have to log on and use my Sgt Zim
BPRAL22169: I don't know about "author," but I'm a writer.
DavidWrightSr: Bill is an author and publisher. I have written one minor thing.
pjscott100: If you have an ISBN to your credit, you're an author, Bill
Reilloc: I used to write home for money
BPRAL22169: Half of one thing, not so minor.
AGplusone: Some of us are wanna bes
TreetopAngelRN: I have one of you books on my shelf Bill, I think that makes you an author
aggirlj: You guys.
BPRAL22169: Aw shucks!
robertljoseph: If ur intersted in new stuff checkout my website at www.everywherebooks.com
Dehede011: I have one manuscript complete and one in the works.
TreetopAngelRN: I am a web author and have received prizes for my writing
Reilloc: Hey, Bill, how much for an autographed copy?
pjscott100: I doubt any of you has my book :-)
BPRAL22169: That reminds me, David W -- you haven't sent me the revised second half of your article!
robertljoseph: What is it?
AGplusone: Was that your post on the Society board, Robert?
BPRAL22169: LNC: I would charge you more for the rare and unusual UNautographed copy!
DavidWrightSr: I haven't? Sorry, I thought I had. I'll get it out shortly.
Reilloc: Not if I create the dedication...
robertljoseph: Yep
BPRAL22169: OK. I'm starting to put the next issue together, so it's time.
AGplusone: Let's talk about it somewhere else, later, then.
Reilloc: "To L.N.--in spite of me and everybody else."
BPRAL22169: Hmmm... OK.
Reilloc: No.
BPRAL22169: Purchase the copy from Jim Gifford, and I'll send it from here. Let him know the arrangement.
Reilloc: "To L.N.--against my better judgment."
TreetopAngelRN: my copy of "A Martian Named Smith" is NOT autographed!
pjscott100: my sole published book to date is a computer book
Reilloc: brb
BPRAL22169: Hold onto it! It's valybull.
TreetopAngelRN: LOL, it's in a place of Honor
BPRAL22169: At Westercon last year Andy and I chased down someone in the Dealer's Room to force autographs on her.
robertljoseph: But probably already outdated.
AGplusone: Does writing something for alt.erotic.sex.for.weirdos count for publication?
pjscott100: This is probably a stupid question but it actually has something to do with RSG: do regular firearms work in vacuo?
aggirlj: Oh geeze.
BPRAL22169: OK -- my computer service guy is here, so I've got to sign off. Have a good one, everyone.
BPRAL22169: ciao
robertljoseph: I wouldn't claim it.
aggirlj: Bye bye.
BPRAL22169 has left the room.
TreetopAngelRN: Night Bill and thanks again!
AGplusone: No reason why they shouldn't, Peter.
Dehede011: Night Bill
pjscott100: that's what I thought, just seemed odd
AGplusone: It's simple an explosive projecting a missle
Dehede011: But my trusty cap and ball would work just fine
aggirlj: I was hoping you weren't bored.
[Editor's Note: Lost several lines here]
AGplusone: How about the format that Heinlein used, the three boys? anyone sorry we didn't see sequela involving them?
AGplusone: Did we really want to see more of them?
Reilloc: Who? Us?
Dehede011: The subject tonight is Rocketship Galileo??
AGplusone: Yep, us
AGplusone: Yes, Ron
Reilloc: Oh, they were alright but they had to grow up--and they did.
Dehede011: Thanks Dave
aggirlj: But what did they do after?
AGplusone: To an extent they already were all grown up, weren't they? Very little development among them.
Reilloc: Merged into one Lazarus Long
AGplusone: In a way.
Dehede011: They grew up, became engineers at NASA and 22 years later put a rocket on the moon
AGplusone: What lessons did they learn in Galileo? Hardly a handful.
aggirlj: Again, why not further.
Reilloc: They did.
Reilloc: Everybody became Maureen in the end.
AGplusone: Homer Hickam did, at least.
robertljoseph: Why did they have to learn lessons?
Reilloc: Protagonist change is usually desirable.
pjscott100: Everyone of that age in a Heinlein juvenile did
AGplusone: But the boys we find in later juveniles do, really *do* grow and learn.
Reilloc: This was pretty overt.
AGplusone: It was.
EBATNM has entered the room.
AGplusone: Bill Leamer, for example. Hi, Andy. Welcome
aggirlj: Would a companion novel or a anthology be an idea with Galileo included for the schools?
robertljoseph: I always enjoyed Heinlein for the adventure and escapism from my dreary life.
EBATNM: Dehede011: This novel was my intro to Heinlein
aggirlj: How do you do Andy.
Dehede011: Hi Andy
EBATNM has left the room.
aggirlj: Oh, he's gone.
Reilloc: Aunt Bea had dinner ready.
pjscott100: :-)
AGplusone: Whereas with three pretty much interchangeable boys in Galileo, there
really wasn't a lot of time to spend teaching them lessons. About the only one
that sticks out was the one taught to the boy who was the pilot ...
AGplusone: go be a good follower now, or you'll have trouble having them follow
your orders later if the time comes.
aggirlj: It was pretty much a dictatorship. Needed.
pjscott100: Jane, I'm not sure I'd want to bring down the appeal of the
anthology to a school like that
robertljoseph: Good sound advice.
EBATNM has entered the room.
Dehede011: Gallileo had a fly wheel to change its orientation -- has that ever
been used in the real world
EBATNM: Well, hello again!!
aggirlj: Hi.
pjscott100: Yes, many (unmanned) spacecraft do it
Dehede011: Twice is nice
robertljoseph: It was just a gimmick to get there with
Dehede011: Okay, thanks
pjscott100: Not sure when it started... Magellan maybe
Reilloc: Hey, Dave?
AGplusone: So a lot of this 'low-tech' works?
Reilloc: What do you think Heinlein learned from writing this book?
AGplusone: Probably that he could do better than follow a model
pjscott100: Your average space probe has three flywheels at right angles where
it stores angular momentum
robertljoseph: It works only if you can convince the audience
Dehede011: That he could handle the extra length.
Reilloc: Like, gasp.
AGplusone: the model was Hardy Boys ... and it was confining, too much so ...
pjscott100: when it wants to change orientation it will do it by braking the
flywheels if it can avoid using thrusters
AGplusone: he could also get away from stock plots
AGplusone: didn't need 'evil villains' on the other side of the Moon
Reilloc: What one was next in sequence? Space Cadet?
EBATNM: Wasn't RG supposed to be the first in a series?
AGplusone: Yes, Space Cadet was next
robertljoseph: What? A plot without evil villains?
AGplusone: Yes, Andy. It was.
pjscott100: and far more sophisticated
EBATNM: "Young Rocketeers" or some such
TreetopAngelRN: I'm back...what did I miss?
aggirlj: Yes, it seemed that the Nazi's weren't needed.
AGplusone: Next was supposed to be Young Atomic Scientists on Mars, or The
Mysteries of the Moon Tunnels.
AGplusone: They were evidentally going to tie into whatever was found on Mars
when the three boys and Cargraves got there.
TreetopAngelRN: The moon tunnels weren't addressed again, disappointing
aggirlj: Yes, more on that!
AGplusone: It's a lot like the mysterious machines found on Ganymede in Farmer
in the Sky
AGplusone: they don't pop up again either
robertljoseph: When you can't explain it it's always mysterious.
TreetopAngelRN: but then Heinlein wrote on the HUMAN condition, not BEM's.
aggirlj: I really liked this book. I think it would be a good read like any
classic out of our time frame.
AGplusone: Joe Major wrote a spoof on his website which is a 'sequel' ... the
missing Young Atomic Scientists story
pjscott100: Is it any good?
AGplusone: I laughed at it
AGplusone: It's fun to read
TreetopAngelRN: would like to read that
robertljoseph: That doesn;t say whether iot's good or not.
pjscott100: last heinlein spoof I read was in the 1984 Analog spoof issue
AGplusone: You can find it going backwards from the link I'll put up for Space
Cadet, Elizabeth
pjscott100: Have asked Stan several times since then to do another but he won't
TreetopAngelRN: okay
pjscott100: said too many people thought it was real
robertljoseph: Real what?
AGplusone: Yes, that one was controversial
pjscott100: The first line of the story was "Put down that wench!" [sic]
aggirlj: LOL
pjscott100: **** 'em if they can't take a joke, I say
aggirlj: Not enough stars.
AGplusone: Jane: there's a story in Expanded Universe that begins with the line:
"Put down that wrench!"
AGplusone: You'll enjoy it when you get to it.
aggirlj: Okasy.
EBATNM: First line of "Blow Ups Happen"
AGplusone: Yes
robertljoseph: I'm glad everyone is so well read.
aggirlj: I'm way behind.
AGplusone: ["Okay, boss. I put her down. No, wadda want me to do wit' her?"]
TreetopAngelRN: snork!
EBATNM: either well read or anal retentive
aggirlj: Whoa.
AGplusone: can't I be both?
pjscott100: <<<--- envies David's memory
TreetopAngelRN: <<<anal retentive
robertljoseph: would make great trivia candidates
aggirlj: behind.
AGplusone: It's 11 past hour ... suggest five minute break to water cat. LN: you
have the Con ... don't head for the Spanish Main, please.
aggirlj: Let the dog in.
AGplusone: be back at 18 past the hour .....
pjscott100: my cats are self-watering
TreetopAngelRN: just bought the kitten a collar, she is having fits
robertljoseph: She'll scratch herself to death.
pjscott100: I use a fountain made for cats, since they love to drink running
water
robertljoseph: A real cat lover
TreetopAngelRN: nah she's trying to wipe it off on the floor
aggirlj: Elizabeth, watch the cat. One of mine managed to get caught up with her
lower jaw.
pjscott100: http://members.iglou.com/jtmajor/YAEAst.htm
Reilloc: I've got the con.
Reilloc: Shore leave for everybody.
TreetopAngelRN: I have in my sights, she forgets it every once in a while and
has some fun
TreetopAngelRN: BRB
aggirlj: Okay, what does BRB mean?
EBATNM: Be Right Back
aggirlj: Oh, I got it, be right back. thanks.
robertljoseph: duh
aggirlj: I'm new at this.
aggirlj: :-P
robertljoseph: duh was meant for me not anyone else
aggirlj: :-)
EBATNM: So am I. Confirmed chatters get cryptic sometimes
AGplusone: Yes, that's the link, Peter. Thanks.
pjscott100: it reads like it's real!
AGplusone: Review of a novel that never was ....
AGplusone: Joe Major is a clever guy
EBATNM: By the way (BTW) I tried the link through the Heinlein Society & it
didn't work
AGplusone: What platform are you on, Andy?
pjscott100: I wonder whether the Panshin quote is real also, although I have no
desire to check it out
EBATNM: Windows (ick) 98 with the 2000 upgrade
aggirlj: Macaddicts, my bro and I.
robertljoseph: did u try typing it in?
AGplusone: Should work. Maybe Dave Wright or Peter Scott can help you figure out
what's wrong.
AGplusone: But you can make a desktop shortcut ... if you're on windows.
EBATNM: De nada, I snuck in anyway
AGplusone: Okay, 'tis 18 past the hour. LN, thank you.
pjscott100: yeah, I never got the link from the society page to work either, i
have a shortcut
Reilloc: I'm relieved, Sir.
aggirlj: I had to get invited. How do I bookmark?
pjscott100: Now you're here, just go File -> Create Shortcut and you've got it
AGplusone: Sometimes it works ... seems as though it depends on hat version.
Can't bookmark off a Mac, jane.
aggirlj: Can't do it while in AIM.
AGplusone: Look on Dave Wright's page. Tells you how to put yourself in the room
without a bookmark.
aggirlj: Thanks.
aggirlj: And Dave Wright's page?
AGplusone: About the things Heinlein learned after writing RSG, what do you
think he learned, LN, or anyone else?
EBATNM: it says the link contains invalid characters
robertljoseph: That he could get paid for writing.
pjscott100: he didn't know that already?
aggirlj: My sentiments.
Dehede011: First, that he could handle book length. Second, that he was capable
of much better quality than RSG
Reilloc: I think he started writing more like he liked to read instead of trying
to just please his audience.
robertljoseph: I agree about the quality comment
pjscott100: was it serialized?
Dehede011: According to Grumbles he had found out early on that he had to write
what interested him
aggirlj: Would seem that it should be.
AGplusone: http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein_1.html is link to the
instructions on Dave's page.
pjscott100: well that might have influenced the writing
robertljoseph: I disagree. he always pleased his audience.
Reilloc: Everybody who ever read Heinlein was pleased?
Dehede011: Yes, but when he did what he liked, we liked Heinlein.
aggirlj: That's the same isn't it, he was his best audience.
robertljoseph: I am having more fun writing my third book because of the great
reviews of the first two.
AGplusone: Not hardly pleased everyone .... but it may have made it easier for
him to write juveniles the way he felt he wanted to write them after he broke
into the market using the Victor Appleton, Tom Swift, or Hardy Boys model.
Dehede011: I haven't sold so I don't know about that RobertJoseph but I am
having fun writing something I want to say
robertljoseph: That helps too
pjscott100: It is dedicated to "Colin, Matt, and Buddy" - who are they?
EBATNM: Didn't RSG help him to get the contact with Scribners?
Dehede011: Has anyone read John Taylor Gatto?
aggirlj: Titles.
Dehede011: Underground History of Education
AGplusone: Again, Space Cadet, the second is based on another old model ... the
boy goes away to school sort of thing, particularly a military school, but
Dickens and Kipling wrote those.
AGplusone: Which may have been a step up from Appleton.
robertljoseph: Anyone can be sold no days with the print on demand publishers.
Only drawback is u have to do ur own promotion and distribution.
Dehede011: J T Gatto seemed to think that the Hardy Boys were written to help
keep us simple, or that is the way I remember him
pjscott100: And ditto with Starman Jones
EBATNM: "Tom Brown Schooldays" prototype. The same mine Rowlings used for the
"Harry Potter" series
AGplusone: I honestly cannot recall any plots from Hardy boy stories at all.
AGplusone: Exactly, Andy.
Dehede011: Heinlein certainly never wrote down to us
pjscott100: so one could argue that H was simply updating Kipling et al to make
the stories more accessible to modern youth
robertljoseph: MY first book was the Twisted claw and it took me forever to read
it.
pjscott100: which begs the question of how accessible they are to today's youth
AGplusone: In a way he did .... made them futuristic, tho, which had an added
appeal to some of us.
robertljoseph: Created the excitement and mystery.
jilyd has entered the room.
EBATNM: Same basic cake, different icing
AGplusone: The Light that Failed, for example, got tedious to me when I read it
a couple years before.
Dehede011: But is it possible to be totally new
pjscott100: My opinion doesn't count since I'm too old... we need some actual
youth for experimentation
AGplusone: Of course that could have been the kid's blindness that put me off.
pjscott100: "Fresh meat! Fresh meat!"
Reilloc: I've got a kid who liked Magic, Inc. quite a bit.
jilyd: I'm baaack.
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Dee!
pjscott100: Hi D ho
AGplusone: I loved Magic Inc the first time I read it. About 11 or 12.
robertljoseph: Me too
aggirlj: Hi Dee, the Hardy Boys are the sub-thread.
jilyd: I'm supposed to recognize EBATNM, but my memory was shot off in the war.
;-)
EBATNM: "Totally new", no; but one can use a different slant
Reilloc: He liked that in that universe, the rules were so different.
robertljoseph: That's because they think it was his model
EBATNM: <<<---- Andy
jilyd: Thanks, Andy. Hi.
TreetopAngelRN: Why/when did we start reading science fiction? more exciting
than the typical Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew??
robertljoseph: Like I did in my books, space without the spaceships.
EBATNM: Grit'ens
pjscott100: I wonder how well a book would sit with today's schools that showed
boys experimenting with high explosives
Dehede011: brb
AGplusone: Went to librarian and said: he, or anyone else, write anything else
like this. She, for reasons known only to god, sent me to HP Lovecraft. Cthuhu
was a real trip after that. Didn't sleep particularly well.
robertljoseph: There u go mixing the real world and fiction.
pjscott100: You have my sympathies, David
aggirlj: Started reading Taylor Caldwell for history.
pjscott100: I can recommend a therapist if it'
pjscott100: s not too late :-)
AGplusone: I think something has to be done about Nannie Schools.
TreetopAngelRN: I would be fired in a week if I taught school
aggirlj: Why?
robertljoseph: If ur going to worry about expolosives in books worry about all
the war ganes.
jilyd: A Librarian sent you to Lovecraft at 11 y.o.?!? I was about 15 when I
went on a Lovecraft kick.
AGplusone: Yep. I was a weird little kid.
AGplusone: maybe she figured I could handle it.
aggirlj: I'm saying nothin.
jilyd: Weird librarian, too. :-)
EBATNM: My guess: the librarian hadn't read either one and "Magic" toggled a
synapse
AGplusone: I only got a little weirder after that, right, Jane?
Reilloc: What Heinlein after "Stranger" is in public school libraries?
robertljoseph: Don't no nuthin about lovecraft
aggirlj: Nothin.
TreetopAngelRN: I think we should teach kids according to their individual
learning patterns, not the teacher's teaching pattern
EBATNM: Lovecraft is Edgar Allan Poe without the humanity
aggirlj: Excellent!
jilyd: Good description, Andy.
robertljoseph: that sounds sick
jilyd: It is!
AGplusone: As if anyone ever accused Poe of humanity.
pjscott100: Question: obviously "October Sky" showed that in the 50's boys could
build their own rockets without a raft of permits and communal outcry... this
still the case?
jilyd: That's the point.
aggirlj: Are you kidding.
robertljoseph: there was a tv show with andy griffith that did that