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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday 09/30/2000 5:00 P.M. EDT

'Orphans Of The Sky'

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

dwrighsr: Hi Guys.

dwrighsr: I almost forgot about tonight. I have been working in the yard.

Gaeltachta: Hi David(s)...........

AGplusone: Hi, Sean, Dave.

AGplusone: How're the leaves?

dwrighsr: Not bad yet. I've been able to mulch them so far.

dwrighsr: But, I expect in a few weeks, they are going to be too thick.

AGplusone: How soon do you expect snow, Dave. It's been so many years since I've been South I can't remember.

Gaeltachta: I'm flat on my back on the floor.......... looking up at the monitor........... been in hospital with a ruptured disc........ so a bit slow and tender right now...............

dwrighsr: Snow? What's that. We haven't had any appreciable amount since the blizzard of 93

AGplusone: Oh, that sounds painful in the extreme!

dwrighsr: OOOh. that's bad

AGplusone: If I never have back problems it'll be too soon.

Gaeltachta: OOOoooh........yeah!!!........ I'll see how long I last..........

dwrighsr: Well, I get a little stiff in the back occasionally, but that's nothing.

AGplusone: Good to see you here, though!

markjmills has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Thanks......... Won't be for long though........ and typing like this is crap........ :-)

AGplusone: Hi, Mark. You know Sean, from the Land of Oz ...

AGplusone: ?

stephenveiss has entered the room.

dwrighsr: Hi Mark.

Gaeltachta: Hi Mark......

markjmills: Hi, all. Another beautiful NYC day...so why am I on this bloody PC?

AGplusone: Evenin' Stephen ... hiya...brb..switchin clients...

stephenveiss has left the room.

AGplusone: Just chatting ... you could turn on the college game and watch out of the corner of your eye as I am ... :-)

dwrighsr: I'm going to be gone part of the time, and my alter ego, MaiKoshT, is offline for some reason, so please keep a copy of the discussion just in case, I get dropped.

AGplusone: I wondered whether tripod.com is having problems too ... couldn't get a page to load ... but that could be on my end.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

stephenveiss:I'm back :-)

AGplusone: How's Jani, Stephen?

dwrighsr: My ISP switched mail programs this week and resent triple copies of every msg that was still on their server. Cleared up now.

stephenveiss:shes okay..feeling ill tho, so shes not online..

AGplusone: Ah ... give her my regards then.

stephenveiss has left the room.

dwrighsr: Same here.

dwrighsr: Looks like he got dropped again.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

stephenveiss:oops

dwrighsr: WB stephen

stephenveiss:tried to sign on in two clients :-)

AGplusone: Stephen, do you and Jani have a copy of Orphans?

stephenveiss:I think so...lemme check

stephenveiss:yup

SAcademy has entered the room.

Eeyore3061 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Good ... Hi, Duchess :-), Eeyore ...

KultsiKN has entered the room.

stephenveiss:mornin, everyone

AGplusone: Kultsi, good early morning to you!

SAcademy: Good afternoon.

Gaeltachta: Morning.........

KultsiKN: Good morning to y'all!

SAcademy: You will never guess what I've been doing ddavitt has entered the room.

Eeyore3061 has left the room.

ddavitt: Hi everyone.

stephenveiss:I'm experimenting here...I'm connected via IRC, so people (unix'ers and so on) who have trouble with the AOL client can connect..

Eeyore3061 has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Just finished plonking Cryobaby...

SAcademy: Reading proof on the new edition of Orphans.

AGplusone: Okay, starting out ... anyone have a comment on anything we discussed in the log for Thursday?

AGplusone: Wonderful! When's it due out?

SAcademy: Haven't seen it yet.

ddavitt: Any changes?

SAcademy: December the contract says.

Eeyore3061: Hi Everyone. Sorry about that, the chat window was buggy.

SAcademy: No changes--sacred word.

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: That will be great ... sometimes that happens, Eeyore.

Eeyore3061: Who is publishing it?

SAcademy: A new online publisher--Stealth Press.

SAcademy: Sounds rather odd, but it's genuine.

AGplusone: Owwww!

ddavitt: Just been to the library and got a book by DuBois, the Heinlein fan/author who posted yesterday on afh.

Eeyore3061: ah, Jim didn't try to get it for Baen Books webscriptions?

AGplusone: Knew you were exploring that option ... should be interesting ...

ddavitt: Nice to see other authors who are fans.

AGplusone: Nice to see they lurk AFH too ...

SAcademy: I got a very long email forwarded by Christine Valada, counsel for SFWA, and it says that they are trying to start a public library online--helping themselves to a lot of books--among them Robert's.

ddavitt: Yes...have to be careful what we say:-)

Eeyore3061: Talk to Jim. Really.

AGplusone: Oh ... then I'm confused. Is Stealth an infringer?

SAcademy: No. There's a contract.

SAcademy: It's a trade edition again.

AGplusone: Okay, then who's starting the public library online ... ?

Eeyore3061: I hadn't heard much about the online library. It started a week or so ago from what I have seen on the Baen boards.

SAcademy: No name given, but lots of talk aabout how wonderful it will be.

SAcademy: Share the wealth and all that.

SAcademy: Pure communism it is.

AGplusone: How exactly do they plan on 'helping themselves' to Robert's books ... pay royalty?

SAcademy: No royalties. They plan to post them online, and let the readers pay something--no amount posted.

Eeyore3061: Jim is many things. But he's a Capitalest.

AGplusone: How are they going to keep people from downloading copies if they post on-line?

ddavitt: Sounds very dodgy...

SAcademy: Jim is all right--he's doing the paperback.

SAcademy: I'd post it but it's just too long.

SAcademy: It will be there for download.

AGplusone: Sounds crazy ... if the books still under copyright ...

ddavitt: There's someone of rasfw wittering on about how books should be free at the moment

SAcademy: Unless we satop them. I'm not sure the scanner and the computer are good things!

Eeyore3061: Sounds like Eric. But he's a Trotsick (or however you spell that)

ddavitt: Obviuosly doesn't realsie that that will take away a lot of a writer's incentive to produce the things in the first place....

SAcademy: You mean Trotzkyist?

SAcademy: He doesn't write from a writer's viewpoint.

labert8 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Well, hate to say this, but their doing that might be a means to end their existence ... damages for copyright infringement ... I'm not particularly pleased with SFWA anyway. Typical 'trade association' types in charge for too long.

AGplusone: Hi, Bert.

stephenveiss:eeek, brb

stephenveiss has left the room.

AGplusone: I'm not sure SFWA is doing the genre any good any more ...

SAcademy: I ldeparted from it years ago.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

AGplusone: It sounds like a crazy scheme. What is their rationale? And whom do they think they'll be helping?

SAcademy: It looks as thugh I had better put Art on a permanent salary

AGplusone: Perhaps writers who cannot get their books reprinted, but I don't see anyone else helped by this ...

SAcademy: They think they will help the general public--but all the books they listed are SF!!!

ddavitt: Or new authors who can't get a publisher...build up an audience..

SAcademy: Everything written will be available for download. Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: or possibly new writers who can't find a publisher ... or are dissatisfied with what's offered them, but publishing in-print, in-copyright works ... with downloaders paying 'something' sounds crazy!

ddavitt: But that would be their choice; which is different from grabbing books without permission

AGplusone: They simply cannot grab books and say: "We're a library ... so we'll publish what we have on-line."

SAcademy: Well, you tell them for me!

Eeyore3061: I'm back reading, I'm back reading.

SAcademy: Scanners are not an unmixed blessing!

AGplusone: Maybe they're trying to go down in flames ... suicide! Dehede011 has entered the room. Dehede011: Afternoon folks, just thought I would come stylishly late.

Eeyore3061: Everyone hold it a minute on the burning of the libaray idea.

SAcademy: Hello Ron. I've been sounding off.

Eeyore3061: Let me see what is going on. Dehede011: That would have been worth listening to. :-)

AGplusone: Okay ... is there something on their website? Dehede011: May I ask the subject

SAcademy: I don't know what the webvsite is.

SAcademy: Can't find it on the very long email (20 odd pages)

Eeyore3061: www.baen.com

AGplusone: We're discussing some kind of proposal SFWA has come up with ... or is running up the flagpole to see whether anyone will salute ... about an on-line library for sci-fi ....

Eeyore3061: The go visit the Baen's Bar. Dehede011: Ok

SAcademy: Not Jim--this is someone else, connected with some University

AGplusone: Jim has an on-line proposal I take it?

AGplusone: But this is something different Ginny's talking about ... ? Dehede011: Haven't I seen RAH listed on one of the University on line libraries a couple of years ago.

Eeyore3061: Just found the thread.

AGplusone: Okay ... says what?

SAcademy: No. Jim is a decent publisher. And the email came from Christine Valada, who is the counsel for SFWA, and she's furious aabout it, too.

Eeyore3061: let it load.

Eeyore3061: <deletes lawer remark>

AGplusone: Okay, this is some professor who is a member of SFWA ... that Valada is alerting people to ...

AGplusone: [possibly a proposal he, the professor, may be making?]

SAcademy: The professor (if it is one) is not a member of SFWA--Christine is their counsel--attorney--she's hopping mad, and she forwarded the email.

SAcademy: I was one of the recipients, because R's books are mentioned.

AGplusone: It load yet, Eeyore?

Eeyore3061: yep, reading and talking to Deann about it. Dehede011: I take it all are some of RAH's books are to be put on line according to this professor.

Eeyore3061: And Colette is talking to me about one of her loans.

Eeyore3061: aaaaaaahhhhhhh Dehede011: or some

RaShaKaela has entered the room.

Eeyore3061: Lades and Gentelmen, this is my friend Deann.

AGplusone: Hi, Deann, welcome.

RaShaKaela: Hi.

ddavitt: Hi there, I'm Jane.

Eeyore3061: She's been following the thread lots more then me.

stephenveiss has left the room. Dehede011: Hi, De

ddavitt: Ooh that's bright! :-)

RaShaKaela: Hi, all. Some of you may have met me, before, as Silverdrake1.

ddavitt: Yes, that sounds familiar

AGplusone: Is this simply some proposal someone is advocating, Deann?

AGplusone: Remember you.

RaShaKaela: It is a proposal that Jim Baen and Eric Flint came up with, and in which various authors have agreed to participate

AGplusone: Who is Eric Flint?

RaShaKaela: Major point: Participation is *voluntary.*

Eeyore3061: A really good Baen author.

AGplusone: This is sort of the same kind of thing as Stephen King tried recently? Or is it more detailed and spelled out?

RaShaKaela: He's been writing the "Belisarius" series with David Drake for the past couple years. Dehede011: Oh, yes, I have seen him on the shelves

RaShaKaela: No, they're not selling chapters. They're putting up older books in toto for free download. The main thrust is to get lesser-known authors some publicity Dehede011: Like Isaac Asimov and Clarke?

stephenveiss has entered the room.

Eeyore3061: "1632" was his latest stand alone. Jim did it in hardcover.

RaShaKaela: No, like Flint, Freer, et. al.

AGplusone: Okay, but they're not claiming that RAH books will be included in their books available, are they? Dehede011: Sorry :-)

ddavitt: <g>

RaShaKaela: Not unless someone who holds the copyright to those books volunteers one of them for the library!

RaShaKaela: Participation is *voluntary*

SAcademy: I don't believer it's the same thing.

AGplusone: Okay ... then what Ginny may have may pertain to someone else ... I take it.

Eeyore3061: Deann, may I introduce you to one of the Great Ladies of our time?

RaShaKaela: Can't volunteer what ain't yours to offer.

RaShaKaela: Who?

Eeyore3061: Deann, this is Virgina Heinlein.

Eeyore3061: aka SAcadimic

SAcademy: There wasn't any name on it. Hello. Glad to meet you.

RaShaKaela: [clears throat]

Eeyore3061: hehehe

RaShaKaela: Ah, quite a singular honor to meet you, dear lady. [bows very low]

SAcademy: No need to bow.

AGplusone: Ginny (SAcademic) has received a copy of something from SWFA's counsel saying that someone else is proposing to (or threatening to) post classic sci-fi, for download as a "public library" so-called on the Internet.

AGplusone: Including RAH works ...

RaShaKaela: Ah, there has been quite a row on the newsgroups about that

SAcademy: David, I will forward it to you, if you'd like to see it.

AGplusone: Yes, I would, please.

SAcademy: Okay. I'll do it before I leave.

RaShaKaela: A bunch of pseudo-anarchists, from their drivel, who believe "all books should be free."

AGplusone: Which groups ... ?

SAcademy: That's the theme.

RaShaKaela: rec arts sf written, that I know of

ddavitt: I said there's something on rasfw about it

RaShaKaela: There's another called......

SAcademy: Of course, you have to have a computer to do this.

ddavitt: Should still be there

AGplusone: Okay ... I'll track that down ...

RaShaKaela: alt.binaries.ebooks (?) where pirated texts are being posted

ddavitt: Written by somehow who sounded a penny short of a sixpence mind you....

SAcademy: Alt-binaries e-books isn't doing it anymore

RaShaKaela: Then there's a new group called FreeNet

SAcademy: That source has been scotched. It's moved to another place.

SAcademy: Can you tell us where to find them?

RaShaKaela: They claim that their new software(?) will make it impossible to track the originator of pirated texts, and thus they will de facto render all copyrights unenforceable and defunct

RaShaKaela: FreeNet, no. I've only heard about it in passing. Steven Stirling is the one who was really up in arms about it. He knew the "leader's" name and email addy, at least

ddavitt: Is this related to the person who has been posting huge chunks of Dune on rasfw?

AGplusone: Sounds to me like they really want the Justice Department to play games with them ....

RaShaKaela: No idea.

SAcademy: Dune led the list of their free stuff.

RaShaKaela: I believe FreeNet might be in England. Not sure on that, however

KultsiKN: Hah! If they _ever_ get caught in the U.K...

RaShaKaela: I believe Stirling posted about FreeNet on the Books conference of Baen's Bar. Lucylou98 has entered the room.

RaShaKaela: [snicker!]

Eeyore3061: Oy, sounds like a coming judo throw to justify the Carnavore tech.

AGplusone: That's all right ... you won't believe what happened to FreeNet does these days .... when someone complains, right Stephen ...

ddavitt: The rasfw thread is called "All books should be free", originated with t nurg@my-deja.com and mentions freenet

AGplusone: It sure does, Eeyore ... Lucylou98: Afternoon

ddavitt: Hi LL Lucylou98: Hi ddavitt Dehede011 has left the room.

AGplusone: 'what happened to FreeNet and what FreeNet does these days' Dehede011 has entered the room.

RaShaKaela: Well, Jim and Eric think the "public library" idea might help stave off any massive legal invasion of the internet. Quite frankly, Carnivore, et al. give me the crawling willies!

AGplusone: They lost a judgment for infringement recently and pull the plug very quickly for any complaint.

RaShaKaela: Good.

Eeyore3061: So, what happens and what does FN do?

Eeyore3061: Or not do, as the case may be now. :-)

AGplusone: Jani's the one to talk to about it ... but my understanding is FN is gunshy and will yank any site that any seemingly valid complaint of infringement is made against and let the customer sort it out before he puts it back up.

RaShaKaela: Hmm. Keep doing that enough and they'll pop him under RICO

AGplusone: customer must prove it's not and infringement before they'll allow it back up

AGplusone: an

RaShaKaela: Not that I'd cry anything but crocodile tears at that. Lucylou98 has left the room.

RaShaKaela: So the plan is to hammer the customers until none of them will take FreeNet?

SAcademy: What if you have copies of books to prove infringement?

AGplusone: In any event ... I think we've gone as far on this one as we can go ... anyone want to ask anything further on it ... if not, we'll see what we have to say about Orphans of the Sky ...

RaShaKaela: Then I'd say that's pretty concrete proof.

SAcademy: I think so. We've got a lot of copies of books now.

AGplusone: Yes, we had a recent example involving part of Starman Jones ... the site went down when it was pointed out to the user the copies including illustrations were copyrighted and owned by the estate.

RaShaKaela: Then do kindly hammer the people responsible into a small greasy spot.

AGplusone: Within a day ...

ddavitt: I think he was a honest person though; didn't intend to do wrong.....

SAcademy: I told the young man to take it down, in no uncertain terms!

ddavitt: And he did....

AGplusone: Could be ... in any event he took it down as soon as she pointed that out.

RaShaKaela: That's why I said the people responsible. There are too many out there who really don't know about the legalities of copyright.

Major oz has entered the room. Dehede011: On some of these sites they seller could be either a bookseller or some amateur. How do I attract the commercial sellers?

RaShaKaela: Getting to the people behind all this is going to be the hard part.

AGplusone: HI, Oz ... a side discussion on Internet copyright infringements is going on ...

Major oz: good afternoon all // as though anyone can do anything about it.

AGplusone: involving sci-fi works ... a thread on rec.arts.s.f.

AGplusone: Only the owner if the owner is aware of it ...

RaShaKaela: If you have any questions about exactly what the Baen "public library" is, do please contact Jim Baen. He'd be happy to tell you all about it, I'm sure.

SAcademy: I'll call him Monday

RaShaKaela: :-)

Eeyore3061: It sounds like two different things. The one the professer was wanting to do and Jim's idea.

AGplusone: What Baen, by contrast, seems to be doing is along the lines of affording an alternate publishing facility for works ... for those writers who wish to take advantage of the opportunity ...

RaShaKaela: professor?

RaShaKaela: Bingo!

Eeyore3061: Has anyone here, not you Deann :-), heard of Baen's Webscriptions?

RaShaKaela: There's a new author who has one book out. His next will appear this coming April. Jim said he should take advantage of the "public library" to get himself some name recognition in order to boost sales of the second book.

AGplusone: Apparently one of these "pseudo-anarchists" purports to be a professor somewhere ...

RaShaKaela: That may be the guy who's supposedly in charge of FreeNet. Okay, I think I remember his name: Ian Clarke

Eeyore3061: I like the pseudo part. They want full leagal defence.

RaShaKaela: Heh

AGplusone: We should all drive around in our psuedomobiles ...

SAcademy: Mine is a golf cart now.

AGplusone: probably get great mileage ...

SAcademy: Can't drive because of eyesight problem

RaShaKaela: Oh, but to hear these yahoos talk, they want to free the poor starving authors from the shackles of the evil "mega-corporations" who unjustly take so much of the authors' rightful recompense for their labor.

AGplusone: I'd suggest that with traffic here in L.A. you wouldn't be missing anything ....

markjmills: ooops...sorry guys....have an appointment....have to run NOW!!!

markjmills has left the room.

AGplusone: Anyone recall the Spider Robinson post some years back? Dehede011: ??

RaShaKaela: Not me; I wasn't around then.

AGplusone: Was on that subject ... but I wonder what Spider might say in his column to address these psuedo-idiots ...

RaShaKaela: [wince]

Eeyore3061: Drop a rock on them.

Eeyore3061: From LEO.

SAcademy: What about? Years ago, Ted Sturgeon was hyping a writer's UNION

RaShaKaela: What really shows they have a severe case of recto-cranial inversion, is that they then turn around and claim that true "artists" will continue to write, even if they don't get paid! >:p

SAcademy: sPIDER HAS TURNED plutocrat--they bought a house on Bowen Island.

AGplusone: Does Spider still show up on rasf, Oz?

Major oz: haven't seen him under any name I recognize

AGplusone: He still has that column in the Toronto paper doesn't he?

Eeyore3061: Considering where they use to live, and with a daughter to care for, good for him.

SAcademy: LazarusLong Dehede011: I thought he quit that.

Major oz: Spider uses LL as a screen name ???

Eeyore3061: rotflmao

labert8: sounds like a good choice of names to me <smirk>

SAcademy: Yes. Does it make a difference? Dehede011: I think I saw that somewhere.

RaShaKaela: I could easily see that.

AGplusone: Maybe he did ... cannot recall. He used to use LazarusLong@ what's the one that is in process of merging with AOL ? Forget ... Compuserve!

Major oz: No......just curious (in the "what Alice said" sense)

SAcademy: he's on compuserve.

AGplusone: Maybe somebody ought to point him at that thread.

RaShaKaela: [ominous music plays in the background, growing louder with each thudding heartbeat.....!] :-D

AGplusone: I just remember the letter he sent around years ago ... it was strong stuff.

Eeyore3061: Bowen Island, certeinly a step up from guarding that hole in the ground in upstate NY.

RaShaKaela: Read some in a couple of his anthologies!

AGplusone: I have ... a few. Dehede011: I almost never see him on the shelves.

ddavitt: Just read his new one Dehede011: But like him very much

RaShaKaela: The problem is, I really don't think even that would make much difference. :-(

Eeyore3061: What goes up, gets bought and never reordered.

Major oz: ......guess I will have to read the log -- I have NO idea what you folks are discussing.

AGplusone: Speaking of which ... we ought to discuss some visitors ... who I've been holding off on ... and Spider's problem with visiting at the beginning of this year was he was working on getting out that laestest one you just read.

SAcademy: Eleanor says he's slow at writing, but he has a new book coming out this fall, or in the spring.

ddavitt: Who do you have lined up David?

Eeyore3061: The one from Baen?

AGplusone: Actually SA lined them up ...

ddavitt: Joel Rosenberg would ne nice...

ddavitt: All ears....

Eeyore3061: Cool guy.

Eeyore3061: go for it

SAcademy: I'll ask Joel

ddavitt: That would be great SA.

ddavitt: He's friends with an afh regular too

SAcademy: Okay, I'll get a lettere off to him.

ddavitt: And sometimes posts so I'm sure he'd be amenable

AGplusone: But Spider, Bob Silverberg, Lois Bujold, and Greg Benford have all tentatively agreed, subject to scheduling ....

SAcademy: All I can do is ask.

ddavitt: Wonderful!

AGplusone: My question would be: if we invited each of them, what works of theirs (associated with or connected to RAH's works or influence, possibly) would we want them to discuss? Dehede011: AG I believe you once recommended Ian Douglas' writing. How about him?

ddavitt: I may have to go soon as I don't want to leave Eleanor staring at the TV for much longer...I have an Orphans question

AGplusone: Anyone? Any suggestion .... PLEASE (because you have to remember I'm not a sci-fi reader, generally, and therefore not qualified really to say)

AGplusone: For example: what Spider Robinson?

AGplusone: (apart from his latest, of course ... )

RaShaKaela: I'm not sure which of Lois' works would be closest to RAH's. Maybe _Falling Free?_

KultsiKN: Please, give Jane the word...

SAcademy: Ask Spider about his new book

ddavitt: On Thursday we touched on why Joe/Jim sacrificed himself; could have been the blood brother bit. i said it was no sacrifice just didn't want to live alone...

AGplusone: ... and ...

RaShaKaela: Personally, I don't think he would have lived.

ddavitt: Notice earlier in book we have a conversation between Joe and Jim where they are very cynical about the blood sharing...didn't take it seriously

dwrighsr: But, could he even have lived alone. With a dead head on his shoulders?

Major oz: no Dehede011: Sorry folks but I have to go now.

AGplusone: I don't think so. Dehede011 has left the room.

Eeyore3061: (bites lip)

ddavitt: Don't know...but I think that proves I was right and he wasn't sacrificing himself....

AGplusone: GA, eeyore ...

RaShaKaela: Eeyore, you have any opinions about Lois' stuff?

Major oz: suicide, then?

ddavitt: He was a very self interested character, very cynical and manipulative ( in a good way...)

Eeyore3061: Anything to do with Miles growing up.

AGplusone: I'd agree EEy

AGplusone: So he's making a last useful guesture ... going out doing something worth while I'd say Jane.

Major oz: I have always considered myself to be cynical and manipulative (in a good way)

ddavitt: This is going to mean lots of trips to the library...not read some of those authors at all

Eeyore3061: self interested, cynical, and manipulitive, ... yep, that's Miles.

ddavitt: Maybe, but NOT a sacrifice or heroic.

RaShaKaela: Heh

Major oz: I think we are in the fuzzy part of how we define words.

AGplusone: Well, that's the point ... the best way to have a visit is know the books the visitor is bringing to the dance and have a meeting on them before the visit. As we did with Haldeman, Pournelle and Nixen, and with the Andersons.

AGplusone: For example with Joe we did both Forever War and The Forever Peace ....

Eeyore3061: You had Dick visit from the grave?

ddavitt: Yes; not enough time to read the whole of their work

RaShaKaela: Well, I suppose you could always ask them which of their works are most closely associated and/or inspired by RAH's works.

AGplusone: and had recently read and done Troopers.

AGplusone: Poul Anderson

AGplusone: I'm sorry ... Niven

Eeyore3061: Nixen

AGplusone: Not David either

Eeyore3061: :snicker:

RaShaKaela: *SWAT* Eeyore!

KultsiKN: Deann, you're almost a good as Jani...

RaShaKaela: [ponder] Is this good or bad........?

KultsiKN: Very good

Eeyore3061: Better, you should see the list of martal arts she has studied.

RaShaKaela: heh. :-D

AGplusone: What I did with the guests was after we'd figured out what to talk about was ask them to be prepared to discuss the ones we'd read. With Jerry and Larry we had the Jannissaries and the what'sname ... the Sparta series

AGplusone: And with Poul and Karen the ones in the Magic Inc 'universe' Operation Chaos and Luna

dwrighsr: David. Do you still have the log of that one. I'd love to post it on the archive web page.

Eeyore3061: Hmm, I rang John and told him to get his rear in here, but nothing yet.

RaShaKaela: email tag?

AGplusone: I have them all ... let me make a special effort to get those to you.

AGplusone: Whose e mail Deann?

dwrighsr: Great.

RaShaKaela: Was asking Eeyore.

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AGplusone: John Ringo?

RaShaKaela: mrowf.

AGplusone: I'd actually like John to visit as well.

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AGplusone: He's said a lot about writing in the few opportunies we've had where the subject came up.

RaShaKaela: I tagged him yesterday for Bar Chat, and he didn't even get online until around 2000.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: WB, Ginny

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dwrighsr: David. Did you ask Ginny if that was indeed her in the picture with RAH and Pournelle and Alderson?

Eeyore3061: I hate Tigger.

RaShaKaela: Bad tigger.

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AGplusone: With John we'd also have to ask what should we read, because I haven't been able to find anything by him yet.

AGplusone: Yes, she doesn't know for sure.

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Eeyore3061: Did that work?

ddavitt: That's cos this is his first book i think:-)

RaShaKaela: _A Hymn Before Battle_ will be out from Amazon 03 Oct, and from Barnes and Noble 15 Oct. BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: Hi Bill!

ddavitt: But bits are on the Baen website I think?

RaShaKaela: It is now available in its entirety from Baen eWebscriptions.

AGplusone: He had one out a few months ago. BPRAL22169: Hi.

ddavitt: Hi Bill BPRAL22169: Hi, Jane. BPRAL22169: Thanks S'A

AGplusone: Hi, Bill ... discussing upcoming visits of authors and how to schedule them ...

RaShaKaela: About half of it is available as sample chapters on his web site http://www.johnringo.com

AGplusone: Since we are out of schedule ...

ddavitt: What is next btw?

Major oz: Gots to go -- they are yelling for me to do the stir-fry

RaShaKaela: AG, what are the official times for this?

AGplusone: That's a good question, Jane ... BPRAL22169: Seems hard to believe we've gone all the way through the future history.

Major oz: ......will try to get back before the end.

ddavitt: Bye Oz

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ddavitt: I'm full of them:-)

AGplusone: Thursdays 9 PM to midnight, Saturdays 5 to 8 PM, ET

AGplusone: Alternate weeks

RaShaKaela: Ah, alternate. That's why I kept missing it.

dwrighsr: Personally, I don't consider us through with FH. What about TEFL or has that one been done otherwise?

AGplusone: Not recently, Dave.

AGplusone: You want to host it?

ddavitt: A big bite...but I'm sure we could chew it <g>

AGplusone: Last time we did it in two segments.

dwrighsr: There you go again, thinking I'm volunteering :-)

AGplusone: But now that we have two separate meetings, no reason why we cannot do it in one "week" ...

dwrighsr: I really think that it should be broken into a number of segments, not sure just how.

AGplusone: going Thursday and Saturdays ... leave it up to the host to break it up ... BPRAL22169: We could do one session on each of the novelettes

ddavitt: Maybe a theme rather than the book itself?

AGplusone: That is true ...

ddavitt: How LL changes?

AGplusone: six hours ... BPRAL22169: Maybe a session just on Da Capo.

dwrighsr: How about a number of themes?

ddavitt: LL in the stories, LL in the "present" of the book

AGplusone: That could be ... the cohost simply says, this is what I think we might discuss .... (1) .... (2) .... (3) ....

ddavitt: Sounds a plan; I think it needs some structure, albeit a loose one

AGplusone: or we could have two cohosts ... we've done that too.

AGplusone: I.e., Jane picks points she wants to do and does them Thursday, Sean does his Saturday ...

ddavitt: Umm...might not be an idea to count on me...

ddavitt: i may be otherwise occupied

AGplusone: Eleanor could sub ...

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: and imagine doing the chat with a laptop from the hospital .... BPRAL22169: Putting some of Lafe Hubert's theories into practice?

ddavitt: She's still on Dr Seuss...not advanced to heinlein yet

AGplusone: my wife is really LAUGHING at me now ...

ddavitt: I'd like to be able to alter the gravity; that sounds fun!

ddavitt: Don't blame her!

AGplusone: And wants to know if there's anything you like her to do to me ....

ddavitt: Tickle you!!

ddavitt: seriuosly, due date is 5 weeks now; 2 weeks to next chat ...might not be around

ddavitt: But I'll do my best to contribute to pre meeting posts on afh as long as I can

RaShaKaela: What is afh?

AGplusone: Why don't we do this ... DaveWright and you (if and as available) split it and go with TEFL whatever parts you'd like and if you start the posts, someone will pitch in if you suddenly become 'unavailable' ...

ddavitt: Altfan heinlein

AGplusone: afh is alt.fan.heinlein

ddavitt: OK.

RaShaKaela: Gracias

ddavitt: So is it going to be in 2 weeks then?

AGplusone: We use that as a message board for posts .... look for a lead off with dates two weeks off .... RAH AIM meeting announcement

RaShaKaela: [nod]

AGplusone: by me, and then Dave Wright and Jane will pick up and start balls rolling for themes, etc.

AGplusone: I'll post in about a day, maybe tonight.

RaShaKaela: Second question: I'd shortcutted this while using Silverdrake1, and it didn't let me sign on under this name. Is that a restriction or did I get a bug in my shortcut?

dwrighsr: Ok. much as I respect Lazarus's idea of never volunteering, I'll accept the mission. Give me a few days to look over the book again and see what I can come up with. I can't handle the literary connections that y'all seem so good at, but I have a couple of ideas.

AGplusone: Check your shortcut ...

AGplusone: we did change the name of the room slightly some weeks back

RaShaKaela: Okay. Threw out old one and remarked it, just a while ago.

AGplusone: Go with with you wish, Dave. Idea of having cohosts instead of me all the time is different approaches.

KultsiKN: Deann, create the shortcut now, from your session.

RaShaKaela: Done did. :-)

AGplusone: Keerps it from getting boring ...

AGplusone: Are you on PC or Mac Deann?

RaShaKaela: PC

RaShaKaela: Win95

dwrighsr: Click File-->save shortcut

ddavitt: I'll provide the sweet, innocent approach...( that still rankles!)

dwrighsr: Hah!

ddavitt: Exactly...

AGplusone: Too bad ... try using Cntl-T next time and just type in room name and invite yourself "Heinlein Readers Group chat" without the quotes.

AGplusone: Will Control-T give her a room with a PC?

RaShaKaela: Okay, if this one doesn't work, I'll try that.

RaShaKaela: Can do it from AIM main menu

AGplusone: If not, use the pull down for Buddy Chat ... it's under People on a Mac

KultsiKN: Yes.

RaShaKaela: people > buddy chat invitation > put in room name and self to invite

ddavitt: We've come a long way from when we had to invite people in one at a time..makes setting up less frantic

dwrighsr: What version of AIM are you using. Click on Help and 'About...' to find out

RaShaKaela: 4.1.2010

AGplusone: Plus, there's a website that has a link you may use ...

dwrighsr: That's the latest. So that's ok

Eeyore3061: not the latest.

AGplusone: provided you have AIM running

ddavitt: I have to go now; see you all soon.

KultsiKN: People -> connect to talk?

AGplusone: See you Jane ... good luck in next two weeks.

KultsiKN: bye Jane

ddavitt: I'm working on that RP article btw Bill; making some progress

ddavitt: When do you need it for?

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Eeyore3061: John reported a problem earlier today with the new update. He had to back load 2010

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RaShaKaela: Michael, you know how many problems this piece of crud computer of mine causes me. If something works, I'm not changing it anymore! >:p

RaShaKaela: That's the new beta, he said

Eeyore3061: It's always a new beta.

RaShaKaela: Ptttt!

Eeyore3061: We're AOL's uppaid beta testers.

dwrighsr: David. I don't believe CTRL-T works on PCs. At least, I haven't been able to do it.

KultsiKN: And when it stops being beta, you're gonna pay...

RaShaKaela: Heh. And everyone else's too! BPRAL22169: I'm going to leave. Have fun, everyone!

RaShaKaela: Bye ddavitt has left the room.

Eeyore3061: bb and bw BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html is the website with a button to enter chat that should work for you.

Eeyore3061: Hey, Deann, did Vickie's old computer arive?

RaShaKaela: yeah, but I can't put it together until my elbow heals up some more.

AGplusone: Does the pull down menu give a key stroke combo for "buddy chat"?

Eeyore3061: ? What about Mike>

Eeyore3061: ?

Eeyore3061: And what did you do about your "doctor"?

RaShaKaela: I see a button for Chat Room aim:gochat?roomname=Heinlein+Readers+Group+chat

RaShaKaela: seeing the therapist.

AGplusone: Anyway, so far as scheduling I'll make a couple posts this week as well ... That one should work and put you in this room.

RaShaKaela: Okay, thanks

AGplusone: Asking in the posts for themes and discussing what we need before firming up dates for the visiting guest authors.

AGplusone: And we'll ad hoc a bit for the next few weeks ....

dwrighsr: If you have any problems, e-mail and I'll help you set it hope

dwrighsr@alltel.net

AGplusone: Bert? Any theme you'd like to do?

dwrighsr: set it up... not hope

RaShaKaela: Well, Lois just got back from a Con in St. Petersburg, Russia. She said she's dead-tired and it'll take at least a week for her to recover. Then she wants to get on some serious work for books she's promised to write.

AGplusone: Okay ... we'll work around schedules ...

labert8: Sorry, was grading papers while I read this. Themes in TEFL, or in general?

AGplusone: Thing to do is not have them all at once ... but try to schedule them with enough lead time to read .... in general, please.

RaShaKaela: AG, does that website you gave me have all the standard acronyms for this group?

AGplusone: (because some of us will not have read them recently, if at all) ...

AGplusone: No, but Jim's does ...

AGplusone: The Anti-FAQ site for AFH.

labert8: At the moment, I'm wishing I weas around for the Haldeman thing. I just read Forever War. Hmmnn.

labert8: was

RaShaKaela: I take it I can access that from afh?

AGplusone: It was a good one ... Joe's latest the sequel came out after that meeting

AGplusone: Dave, did you have Jim's anti-FAQ on your links page?

Eeyore3061: *grins* I remember Spider's coments about Joe meeting RAH after Forever War came out :-D

KultsiKN: No, Dave's site's got a link.

AGplusone: I meant a link on it to Jim's anti-FAQ

dwrighsr: I don't think so, I was just going to check it out. Hang on. I'll be back

AGplusone: Dave's page is http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

dwrighsr: No. I don't. I'm trying to remembe where it was and I'll add it when I find it.

AGplusone: I'll e mail you Deann ... addy for e mail?

labert8: the anit-FAQ is worth a look. <g> As for themes, I'm trying, but drawing a blank. I'll ponder over the next day or so, and see if I can help you out

RaShaKaela: This one?

RaShaKaela: http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/index.htm

AGplusone: I'd appreciate it ... Thanks Bert.

labert8: anti !! &^$&$$#@ !

AGplusone: No, this is another Jim

AGplusone: BabyBear aka Nuclear Waster

AGplusone: Waste

RaShaKaela: dallen@pcisys.net

AGplusone: Okay ... I'll add you to our mailing list too if you don't mind.

RaShaKaela: Okay

Eeyore3061: This one? http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

AGplusone: Nope, that's one of mine ...

RaShaKaela: No, that's the first one he gave me

Eeyore3061: http://www.heinleinsociety.com/

Eeyore3061: ?

AGplusone: I'll find it .... it's not on my links cause I have finished my webpage ... but 'twill be.

Eeyore3061: and that plus dwrighsr is the three that I have.

RaShaKaela: There isn't anything there, really

AGplusone: Exactly

AGplusone: Anyway, basically they are acronyms as you deduced

AGplusone: TEFL is Time Enough For Love

RaShaKaela: [*whack* self!]

Eeyore3061: Not with your left arm.

RaShaKaela: [voice murmurs from under a rock...] boy do i feel dumb right now

dwrighsr: That's ok. It took me 25 years to figure out that 'tanstaafl' was an acronym and not a natural language word :0

RaShaKaela: LOL!

AGplusone: The only one we don't acronym too much is TITS

Eeyore3061: It is now.

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AGplusone: Usually call that one "Tunnel"

Eeyore3061: Okay, I'll bite?

RaShaKaela: Well, as Keeper of the Lexicon for Baen's Bar, TANSTAAFL is duly noted in said Lexicon under the FAQ conference. :-D

AGplusone: Tunnel in the Sky

Eeyore3061: :snicker:

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RaShaKaela: Heh

RaShaKaela: Now why to I think RAH would be getting a chuckle out of that? ;-)

dwrighsr: We don't seem to have gotten around much to Orphans' have we?

AGplusone: We had too many arguments over FAQs so Nuclear Waste wrote an anti-FAQ

AGplusone: No, we didn't. Shall we?

labert8: Don't feel bad about missing acronyms. Many of us are afh'ers who throw them around often. And I still miss some. <g>

RaShaKaela: umm considering i haven't read that one in about twenty years i think i'll just stay under my rock for now.....

AGplusone: It's in print ... possibly his best ... you might enjoy it!

AGplusone: pb

RaShaKaela: It was pb when I read it waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back when, too!

labert8: Frankly, my favorite thing about Orphan's is the brief mention in TEFL. Not that I don't like it, tho.

AGplusone: And so's my copy ... getting a little ratty ...

labert8: pb? Now I get to show my ignorance.

KultsiKN: So's mine

RaShaKaela: And that same pb is most likely buried somewhere in the gods-awful mess down in the basement, right now. :\

AGplusone: paperback

labert8: doh!

dwrighsr: I'm not sure that I would agree with it being his best. My book club edition is starting to show it's age, along with all of mine.

AGplusone: 

labert8: My bro recently found an old hardback. I'm plotting larceny.

AGplusone: Many people like it as being one that didn't immediately outrage with themes .... he backdoors a few tho ...

RaShaKaela: How could you really say anything is someone's "best?" Doesn't it depend on a lot of things?

AGplusone: Yeah, like which one I read last ....

dwrighsr: de gustibus non disputandum

RaShaKaela: Backdoors? I first read that in like... high school or junior high, and I didn't find much "backdoor" about it!

labert8: I don't know about best. I always feel that I was rushed through it when I finish.

RaShaKaela: The ending was disappointing.

dwrighsr: Yeah, I have the feeling that it could have been fleshed out considerably and preferably extended.

AGplusone: I always feel as if I want him to continue with the stories ... like reading five or six novella he could have expanded .... lots think Laz is killed off.

dwrighsr: But hey, it was one of his earliest ones.

labert8: We'd probably like all of them to have been extended <g>

KultsiKN: The original format was pulp; I don't think it was ever expanded?

RaShaKaela: By that time, he had taught me enough about gene pools that I could see the fallacy in that ending.

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AGplusone: Hi, Stephanie ...

labert8: Hey filly.

KultsiKN: Hello, Filly!

Merfilly8: hello David, Labert, Kultsi, et al

RaShaKaela: I'm D

Merfilly8: Nice to meet you

AGplusone: Anything on Orphans ... beyond or in addition to what we've gone into ....

Merfilly8: Sorry to miss out Thursday

RaShaKaela: Nice to meet you, too.

labert8: I've wondered if he started with the great concept of a gen ship that had forgotten itself, then wasn't sure where to go with it. I doubt it, but it sometimes seems so.

Merfilly8: Has anyone speculated on why the generational ship theme was so popular?

RaShaKaela: Lots of plot room for playing

Merfilly8: I've been missing the newsgroup so, I'm behind

KultsiKN: David, like on Thursday, or on afh?

labert8: simply because it was plausible, as opposed to ftl?

RaShaKaela: that ,too

AGplusone: I think you're right, Bert. Laz got more interesting to him. Anything Kultsi

Eeyore3061: And that was before O'Neil did his calculations and showed just how big the interior of a cylinder was.

AGplusone: Like Orphans got orphaned .... way out there ....

RaShaKaela: umm, which laz?

KultsiKN: At that time, the generation ship was the only thinkable way of getting man to the stars

dwrighsr: But a number of people seem to dislike Laz in his later incarnations.

AGplusone: Woody, Deann

labert8: Why do you say Laz? Did he switch immediately to Meth.? or TEFL? no that was mid seventies.

RaShaKaela: 'k

Eeyore3061: Long

RaShaKaela: then I could be a pest and ask which Laz Long..? 

RaShaKaela: 

AGplusone: He had the juveniles, and the second stage novels for adults ... before he got back to them ... and rather liked being able to string a lot of different stories onto one guy or 'family'

Merfilly8: I still think generational ships have merit...mobile colonies in and of themselves, but then I'm the Nave One

AGplusone: Couldn't do that with Orphans ...

AGplusone: Sagan's great ships sailing on the solar wind .... 

RaShaKaela: In the later stories, Lazarus had a bad tendency to get close to wearing a blue bodystocking with a big S on the chest. :\

AGplusone: So do I at my age ...

KultsiKN: I think RAH pointed out one obvious drawback of GS -- mutiny all too likely

Eeyore3061: tendency?

Merfilly8: D, I think that insulted Supes 

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labert8: Alll later characters could be accused of the same, with varying degres of validity. That does set Hugh and his contemporaries apart.

RaShaKaela: Heh

AGplusone: well .... 

dwrighsr has entered the room.

AGplusone: It does ... I think Hugh (both him and Farnham) are the more human characters ....

labert8: they're 'real' people, very inexperienced. Goes along with juveniles 'coming of age' type themes.

AGplusone: Along with the Great Lorenzo, Oscar, and Daniel Boone Davis

KultsiKN: Like: they all cope?

labert8: Yes, all grow up, learn, become experienced. LAz has been there, done lots.

AGplusone: Sort of 'later' juveniles ... arrested development ...

RaShaKaela: Y'know who my all-time favorite character may have been? Slipstick Libby!

AGplusone: Why Andy, Deann

Merfilly8: Nah, I'll stick to Manny

labert8: male or female? <g>

RaShaKaela: Male!

RaShaKaela: Because he was smart and everyone just blew him off.

AGplusone: Me I like Oscar at the point where he's on the beach ... enjoying the scenery

RaShaKaela: Reminded me of me, in some ways

Merfilly8: Female would be pre-Cat Hazel

labert8: great scenery helps

RaShaKaela: Male, because then I could dream about catching him! :-D

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KultsiKN: Singing Waters w/o Igli have a certain appeal...

labert8: With Orphans, I end up wishing for a "basic training" section, ala Troopers, where we see Hugh learn all the things he ends up coping with up in Mutie territory

Berllan5UD: Morning all

dwrighsr: Hi DaveT

labert8: I was thinking more of Star, as he sees her in. . . France?

Merfilly8: Evening here, but I catch the sentiment and return it

RaShaKaela: Just tagged JohnR, again.

RaShaKaela: I really can't see that, 'bert. A society that restrictive would *never* want a cadre of trained troops just standing around.

KultsiKN: Bert, about OOS: wouldn't that make Joe-Jim all too sophisticated?

labert8: As it is, Hugh seems to transform almost immediately, and I wonder how he can manage the leaps he faces. But I'm not sure those were the themes RAH was after in that book, so they were left aside.

labert8: You mean, Kultsi, that he'd have to be the trainer?

KultsiKN: Who else?

KultsiKN: A machine?

AGplusone: Let me know when it arrives, Dave Wright. Hi, David the 3d.

labert8: I get the impression that Hugh has to figure alot out on his own. . .

labert8: both the ship, and hhow to deal with mutie society

dwrighsr: BTW. I was trying to post the following when I got frozen. I found this when I was searching for NW's Anti-FAQ. Thought you might find it interesting. http://www.bomis.com/rings/heinlein/

dwrighsr: Will do. Thanks

AGplusone: Yes, that's the so-called Heinlein Ring ...

AGplusone: it is interesting

KultsiKN: Yes, he had to do that.

labert8: here's Nuc's page: http://home.talkcity.com/LibraryDr/babybear^/Nuclearwaste.html

AGplusone: Right ... the famous anti-FAQ page!

Berllan5UD: anti?

labert8: in case dwrighsr hadn't found it. sorry if repetitive

AGplusone: We had an argument over whether to have a FAQ a couple years back ...

dwrighsr: DaveS. It just got here. Thanks.

KultsiKN: We don't want no effin' FAQ!

labert8: you could say that. . .

dwrighsr: Thanks Bert

AGplusone: "you could say that ... " wheeew!

Merfilly8: Kultsi, your command of the language is superb 8-)~

KultsiKN: Why, thanks, Filly!

RaShaKaela: Heh. I like this part: This is the only place that I know where there are no rules beyond common politeness and a willingness to accept that the other person has a point."

Berllan5UD: why don't we want FAQs?

AGplusone: Kultsi's from Finland, Berllan from Wales, and Stephen from Shropshire ... Jane, who left, from Canada ...

RaShaKaela: Remind you of anywhere, Michael? :-D

AGplusone: and Sean, here earlier from the Land of Oz

Berllan5UD: Shropshire? Where in Salop?

stephenveiss:Telford

Merfilly8: Hi Stephen, how's your mom?

Berllan5UD: nice place to drive past on M54 ;-)

stephenveiss:shes okay...feeling a bit ill tho

stephenveiss:hehe..

Eeyore3061: Yeah, but they are a bit more structured here.

dwrighsr: DaveW from the Heart of Dixie :-)

RaShaKaela: Forwhy you giggle about your mom being ill.......?

Merfilly8: which heart? :-)

dwrighsr: The Deep Heart. Georgia ::::

AGplusone: <---- Santa Monica, formerly the "People's Republic of"

Merfilly8: Oh yeah, I remember now, McCoy's area

stephenveiss:I wasn't - I was laughing about this: nice place to drive past on M54 ;-)

RaShaKaela: Oh, neighbor of Ringo?

AGplusone: Ringo in Cal?

RaShaKaela: GA

dwrighsr: Really, Where?

Eeyore3061: Commerce

SAcademy: Florida

RaShaKaela: Hey, I got a broken bone in my elbow. You expect fast typing? :p

dwrighsr: How about that? That's not too far.

Berllan5UD: good shopping centre at Telford though

labert8: Since we're locating ourselves, eastern PA. for me.

RaShaKaela: Colorado

dwrighsr: I used to live in Exton, near Paoli

AGplusone: Ah-so ... you'll have to have brunch with us in two weeks Eeyore ... kin ya find Venice ...

RaShaKaela: Would prefer NM, but here's where this desert lizard is currently stuck.

SAcademy: I love Colorado

Eeyore3061: But you got to land, just about, in Forty Ackerman's lap Deann.

SAcademy: Where in Colorado?

Merfilly8: I'm in Carolina, the colder portion

RaShaKaela: I DID NOT!!!!!!!!!

labert8: Somehow we're not surprised. . .

labert8: <g>

Merfilly8: Fall came early here

RaShaKaela: Springs

RaShaKaela: And it's Forey, not Forty! :p

Berllan5UD: anyway folks, only popped in to say hello and general bugger up what was going on ;-)

Eeyore3061: I'm in Greensboro, NC. Ringo is in Commerce, GA

Berllan5UD: off to bed now

AGplusone: Ya did good, David.

labert8: well done !! :-)

SAcademy: We lived there for 17 years.

Berllan5UD: nos da pawb

AGplusone: Say hi to Flashy!

Merfilly8: I've got to grab dinner...it's moving past! Hope to make it in two weeks for the next meet

AGplusone: TEFL Filly

Eeyore3061: I said "just about"

Merfilly8: WHOO HOO!

RaShaKaela: SA, do you remember a couple named Marilyn and Ralph Tacoma?

Merfilly8 has left the room.

SAcademy: No. I don't think I knew them

labert8: Exactly, Stephanie.

Berllan5UD has left the room.

RaShaKaela: Marilyn had met RAH, didn't know how well they'd known each other, though.

AGplusone: My sister lives in Springs Deann

RaShaKaela: Cool. what part?

SAcademy: We lived on Mesa Avenue, back of the Broadmoor hotel.

AGplusone: Don't have a map ... somewhere on Prospect I think ... little house.

AGplusone: I've haven't been to Springs in 36 years since I was at Carson

RaShaKaela: Both off on other side of valley from me. I'm up on edge of eastern plain

SAcademy: 1776 Mesa Avenue--we had the land between 1700 and 1800, so we took 1776 for our address.

RaShaKaela: about 1 mile n of Peterson field

RaShaKaela: :-D

SAcademy: Good old Pete Field--we flew from there a lot.

RaShaKaela: Several years ago, Julie Schwartz (?) was here for a comics tour. He wanted to know where you'd lived and I sort of pointed out the portion of the mountain to him. :-)

dwrighsr: It was mentioned in 'The Man Who Sold the Moon' if I recall correctly.

RaShaKaela: Which where I was getting my vague directions. ;-)

SAcademy: Probably. I don't remember.

RaShaKaela: One of the many many books of his floating around here. :-)

AGplusone: That's all right. I always wanted to sit in the parking lot at the Broadmore and look into the sky .... and imagine seeing it blasting off from there

dwrighsr: You in free fall?

RaShaKaela: Pete Field is now home of Space Command. Fitting, then.

AGplusone: Yes!

AGplusone: You know Colonel Palmer's statue Deann?

AGplusone: The one on the horse?

RaShaKaela: [wince] Who could miss it?!?!?!

SAcademy: Yes.

RaShaKaela: Every year they talk about moving it out of the middle of the intersection. [sigh]

AGplusone: Have a very close friend who got kicked out of School of Mines for a plot involving it. They were going to blow off the appendages ... he got sent to Vietnam after that ...

SAcademy: But they never get around to doing it, I suppose.

RaShaKaela: LOL! My buddy Ralph Tacoma went to School of Mines!

AGplusone: One of the few equestrian statues that definitely is a male horse I've ever seen.

SAcademy: Have they ever put up a statue of Spencer Penrose?

AGplusone: [he came home okay]

Eeyore3061: Good.

RaShaKaela: I think they did.

RaShaKaela: I'm sure they did, but i'm not sure where

SAcademy: And his wife??? Ever see the old gal?

AGplusone: Who was Spencer Penrose?

RaShaKaela: no, didn't

RaShaKaela: another influential Colo Spgs resident

SAcademy: Boies Penroses' hard luck brother.

AGplusone: Figured that ... didn't build a hotel, did he?

SAcademy: Yes, The Broadmoor. Had a penthouse on the top.

AGplusone: Ah-so ... !

SAcademy: Yes, Mrs. P. used to walk her dogs around the lake--two black Standard poodles.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin' Tawn ... welcome

TAWN3: Hi everybody, long time no see!

AGplusone: Anything about Orphans? ...

dwrighsr: That's an underscore after the AIM in case you have to type it.

dwrighsr: Also after OOTS

SAcademy: Hello Tawn.

TAWN3: Good evening SA

Major oz has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Morning, Tawn!

RaShaKaela: How'd the stir-fry go?

Major oz: mmmmmmmmmm

TAWN3: Good Morning Kultsi!

Major oz: I am breathing garlic/ginger/curry fire

RaShaKaela: Heh

RaShaKaela: One advantage to internet conversations, huh? :-D

Major oz: indeed

dwrighsr: You mean you CAN'T smell it through yours :-)

Eeyore3061: Luckaly

AGplusone: "Pixelmeow"'s having trouble getting on ... she's on a PC ... Dave can you IM her? Pixelmeow@aol.com

SAcademy: Yes, when will computers get some smell sensation?

dwrighsr: I don't see her. what's her screen name?

AGplusone: "Pixelmeow"

Major oz: Didn't Robert, in one of his works allude to it being good luck that movies did NOT yet have that developed?

labert8: I'll try IM ing her too.

AGplusone: Thanks ... I'll tell her.

SAcademy: Maybe, he said a lot in his stories.

TAWN3: Well, there was "Polyester"

dwrighsr: She's still in my inactive list.

TAWN3: (sp)

TAWN3: You received a scratch and sniff card upon entering the theatre.

TAWN3: I never saw it, but heard about it.

AGplusone: She's not on AIM right now but you should be able to get to her via AIM without her being on it, because she's on AOL ... labert got through.

dwrighsr: In 'Door into Summer' he had 'grabbies' where they 'nulled' the whole theater

Major oz: Kultsi, is Lase Verrin <bad spelling>, the 10K runner, still a national hero there?

SAcademy: Door opened.

TAWN3: Like "Feelies" in Brave New World in a way?

SAcademy: Guess so.

KultsiKN: Yes, Lasse Viren still is -- and living in the next county, the last I know.

labert8 has left the room.

Major oz: Just wondered if he was on the media, commenting; or is he a coach?

labert8 has entered the room.

KultsiKN: He used to be a policeman, but I think he's in the family's business now.

Major oz: hokay....thanx

AGplusone: Last fifteen minutes ... anyone have anything? About Orphans, anything else?

Major oz: I will read all about it in the log.

Major oz: what's next time?

dwrighsr: Well. We didn't say too much about 'Orphans', but we had a lot of fun.

AGplusone: Not much in the log on Orphans ... this time ... TEFL ... Dave Wright and Jane Davitt are cohosts.

dwrighsr: Now that really scares me

Major oz: Great.....I have been re-reading it lately.

RaShaKaela: That's this Thursday or the one after that?

dwrighsr: You want to co-host too huh, huh,hun?

AGplusone: Two weeks off ....

Major oz: nah

dwrighsr: Shucks,

Major oz: I will sub during pottie breaks, though.

RaShaKaela: May send hubby your way, then. He's the TEFL expert. :-)

Major oz: I never know where I will be two weeks away.

dwrighsr: Send him in.

AGplusone: 'course Jane's baby may arrive and "in addition to your other duties, Oz ..."

RaShaKaela: :-)

Major oz: I leave that to the experts.

stephenveiss has left the room.

dwrighsr: Yeah, Oz, you may have stuck your foot in it.

AGplusone: Love to have him, send his e mail to me and I'll send him a notice.

RaShaKaela: mturner@pcisys.net

Major oz: She due soon?

AGplusone: She said five weeks, I think.

KultsiKN: Yes

Major oz: I had a brother born 31 Oct -- nickname was Spook

KultsiKN: LOL

AGplusone: Lovely nickname!

AGplusone: And I loved the way Peter refers to him in Job ...

RaShaKaela: Mike (hubby) was born 29 Oct!

KultsiKN: I love that scene in Pete's office.

Eeyore3061: Mom was born on 31Oct, we have a lot of fun with that.

RaShaKaela: Heehee!

SAcademy: Bill has a birthday in October, and so does Ron.

AGplusone: Mention to John that visit possibility ... please, Deann, Eeyore ... have him look for the logs Dave Wright will probably put up of the Andersons and Haldeman-Pournelle-Niven ....

AGplusone: this week if I get my self together and send them to him.

RaShaKaela: At the url posted earlier?

Major oz: Oh, yes.......my usual announcement: I will be going to Butler in the next month or so. Is there anything I can do or get for anyone?

dwrighsr: Andersons is already there, I believe, just have to get the Pournelle one up when I get it.

AGplusone: Does anyone know any contact at the TOR sci-fi section?

AGplusone: I'd like to get that Ian Douglas that Ron mentioned ...

TAWN3: Yes

TAWN3: I'll send it to you David.

AGplusone: Think his real name is William H. Keith ...

AGplusone: Actually Avon Books I see ...

Eeyore3061: um, I have to go folks. Colette is getting out the ironware...;-)

AGplusone: 'kay, Eeyore, thanks for coming

Eeyore3061: Thanks for having me. And I hope the PL thing gets cleared up Monday.

SAcademy: Nite, all. See you next time

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: G'nite, Duchess .... <veg> ...

RaShaKaela: PL thing? "public library?"

Eeyore3061: Yes.

Eeyore3061: poof

RaShaKaela: Don't see where there's all that much to clear up, meself. :\

RaShaKaela: Bye, Michael. BB

Eeyore3061: She's going to call Jim Monday.

Major oz: well, folks, see you all on Fri the 13th minus one.

RaShaKaela: Bye, Oz

Major oz has left the room.

Eeyore3061 has left the room.

AGplusone: Saturday, September 30, 2000, 5:00 PM, PDT, closing log. Thanks everyone for coming. See ya all. Good .... yes, that day, Oz.

TAWN3: Bye everybody

dwrighsr: Sweet dreams...

TAWN3 has left the room.

AGplusone: G'nite, David

labert8: well, this was fun. How come I always feel guilty when we get off topic? It's like I'm one of my studetns discussing where to drink tonight instead of the essay. I tried!

KultsiKN: The Thursday/Friday chat is a real PITA -- apparently lots happening, and I have no way to attend

labert8: PITA?

labert8: nevermind

labert8: brain kicked in

AGplusone: Well, with two cohosts next time ... different subtopics, maybe that will be avoided.

labert8: I'm always busy completing lesson plans for Friday, so I miss it too.

KultsiKN: Can't miss work on Friday, and 4 am is a bit early

labert8: No criticism involved David. I enjoyd it anyway.

labert8: I do worry that you'l get torqued and stop running the show, tho.

dwrighsr: That's why I try to get the logs up and posted asap and the notice sent out, so people can keep up.

AGplusone: None taken, but I think we were just talked out on Orphans ...

labert8: was thursday good?

AGplusone: happens with some works ....

AGplusone: Not too bad ... log's not bad.

AGplusone: I get torqued, but until I have a replacement in place and running I'm stuck with it I guess.

AGplusone: <g>

AGplusone: We used to have a little saying: "smile from the wrists down" and I've gotten fair at that.

AGplusone: From the finger-tips anyway ...

labert8: I'll try to read it tomorrow. I noticed near the end that every new signon got a question from you. "Anything about orphans?" <g>

AGplusone: <g> ....

dwrighsr: Good night David, RaS...., Kul... Bert. Got to run

KultsiKN: G'night, Dave!

labert8: I got on tonight, despite not a lot of interest in Orphans, because I'm still so enthralled that Ginny has become so open, I just sit and read.

RaShaKaela: Okay, AG. I've copied all the discussion about guests and John in particular into an email, with urls for both tonight's log and the other authors' logs.

RaShaKaela: Anything else?

AGplusone: David works fine Deann ... nope.

RaShaKaela: All-righty! :-)

AGplusone: Problem is we have two too many Davids to use the name.

RaShaKaela: REmind me not to get so intot he conversation next tiem that I forget I hav a chipped bone in my elbow! OUCh!

dwrighsr: That's why I added the last initial several times, DaveW, DaveS, DaveT

RaShaKaela: And I still have to finish writing the review for johns' book that i was working on when Michael invited me in. :p

labert8: I tend to forget, and some people aren't afh'ers , so i just use screen names

dwrighsr: What's the review going to be in?

AGplusone: Send me a copy ... always like to read good reviews.

RaShaKaela: Mrowf. Later all. Thansk for a fun time and a marvelous introduction.

AGplusone: Agplusone@aol.com or agplusone@loop.com

labert8: Thanks for coming

RaShaKaela: mrowf

RaShaKaela: Okay, will do.

AGplusone: Anytime ... always glad for a new victim

RaShaKaela: !

KultsiKN: C ya, Deann

RaShaKaela: You don' tk now me very well, do you........... ? :-D

AGplusone: You don't know Zim very well either ...

RaShaKaela: Ask John sometime about how he got his nicknane on the Bar as the Guy in Nomex

AGplusone: :-)= <-----friendly neighborhood vampire

labert8: David, if one of your cohosts drops out for TEFL, let me know. I might jump in.

AGplusone: Thanks Bert!

Final End Of Discussion Log

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