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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday Sept 15, 2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

Pioneering in Heinlein - The Final Frontier

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You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

maikoshT has entered the room.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Will. Nobody here yet, but me and my alter ego.

DavidWrightSr: Don't know if we will have many tonight. Jane is going to be late.

geeairmoe2: I'd noticed Jane's post that she would be late and might need someone to open things up.

geeairmoe2: I'v got a few internet-related tasks to clean up. I'll check back.

DavidWrightSr: Ok. I'm working on something too.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Will, David.

DavidWrightSr: Hi David.

AGplusone: crummy week, eh?

DavidWrightSr: Just told Ginny and Will that I have to be AFK for a while.

DavidWrightSr: I have to take my wife to get something to eat.

geeairmoe2: Hello.

AGplusone: Enjoy it.

DavidWrightSr: I'll leave both of my copies running to get the log. Yes a very crummy week.

DavidWrightSr: Understatement of the century.

DavidWrightSr: See you later

AGplusone: see ya!

AGplusone: The century's young.

geeairmoe2: Just finishing up some other internet tasks, so if I don't answer, don't be alarmed.

AGplusone: I won't ... sipping my wake-up tea.

geeairmoe2: I annoyed some people on Sff.Net's group about the bombing.

AGplusone: who?

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny!

geeairmoe2: Hello, m'am.

SAcademy: Good evening everyone. David W. had to take his wife out to dinner.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hello everyone.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane.

geeairmoe2: Hi, Jane.

SAcademy: Hi, Jane.

ddavitt: I am here until L wakes up and demands food; David is at work.

ddavitt: Are you feeling better David S?

SAcademy: I willlhave to leave soon, have a very sore throat.

ddavitt: Sorry to hear that Ginny

AGplusone: better when I'm awake. How's your flu, Ginny ... just what I was about to ask

geeairmoe2: Sorry to hear that. Gargle salty water.

ddavitt: Hot whisky toddy with lots of honey

SAcademy: That's a thought! Haven't tried that yet.

ddavitt: It tastes nicer than salt water too :-)

geeairmoe2: It is nasty, but it always works for me.

ddavitt: I have heard that too Will

AGplusone: The whisky tastes better too.

geeairmoe2: As a non-drinker I can't comment on the other.

AGplusone: saltwater tastes yucky

ddavitt: It's medicinal Will

AGplusone: clears the sinuses

geeairmoe2: Not saltwater, salty water. A teaspoon or two in warm water.

ddavitt: Did you all get chance to read the log from Thursday?

AGplusone: Yes

ddavitt: Good.

geeairmoe2: Nope.

ddavitt: bad:-)

WJaKe has entered the room.

AGplusone: 'change' doesn't mean we read it, however. Hi, Jake

AGplusone: chance

geeairmoe2: Been researching how the bombing fits into Armegeddon in Revelations.

ddavitt: Never mind; if we go over same ground it doesn't matter. Hi there

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron

ddavitt: Hi again Denv

DenvToday: Greetings everybody!

DenvToday: Hello :-)

AGplusone: Have to read Steve's account in Job:ACOJ

AGplusone: ;-)

ddavitt: Is everyone ready to start the chat?

AGplusone: I was always intrigued when Alec meets up with them in Heaven and Steve gives that little hint of an a

AGplusone: account

DJedPar has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Denis

ddavitt: Hi Denis

DenvToday: Hi Denis

DJedPar: Hi David, Hi Everybody

ddavitt: Maybe we'll wait a bit, see if any more people drop in...

ddavitt: Or then again maybe we won't

ddavitt: We were discussing colonisation on Thursday

ddavitt: And whetehr any of us coddled sissies could hack it any more

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Can we do without all the tech and comforts, not just for a holiday but for ever?

AGplusone: Hi Felicia

fgherman: Helllo all

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

SAcademy: Good evening Felicia.

DenvToday: Good afternoon Felicia

ddavitt: Or can we colonise now and expect to get the comfort level back up quite fast?

geeairmoe2: Humans are adaptable. No matter how high or low that comfort level is, humans adapt.

AGplusone: food rationing, no new 'putors every year, have to make do with '41 model Fords, gosh ...

ddavitt: Could you get used to it you think?

geeairmoe2: Wheter I'd voluntarily give them up is one question. If its forced on me, I adapt.

ddavitt: I'm not sure I could

AGplusone: gas rationing

DenvToday: David, you just described Cuba.

fgherman: I sure I'd be able to adapt

AGplusone: I just described 1942-45

geeairmoe2: When its adapt or perish, you'll find yourself capable of extraordinary feats.

fgherman: Just think how luxurious our life looks to someone from just 100 years ago

ddavitt: true..

AGplusone: [or 39-45, in Britain]

AGplusone: Do you think the cubanos under Castro are pioneering spirit tough, Ron?

ddavitt: brb

DenvToday: I think they must be hardy just to make it from day to day. So in a sense, perhaps. But having the..

fgherman: I think the Cuban people are capable of extraordinary accomplishments, just like most other humans

AGplusone: Adaptable, resolute, patriotic

DenvToday: ...pioneering spirit suggest some free will in the mater.

AGplusone: agreed

DenvToday: Most Cubans would get out if they could.

AGplusone: altho those driven from a society can be pioneers. the pilgrims were driven out

DenvToday: Good point. But still, they had a choice of places to go.

fgherman: They don't have alot of choice in the matter, though

DenvToday: Cubans have no choice.

AGplusone: many of those who left the south, ca. 1865, left because they had 'nothing' left

AGplusone: or felt that way

geeairmoe2: "Pioneering Spirit" shows a mental requirement is needed. Ya got to WANT it.

fgherman: I've lost track of how many countries the Jews have been kicked out of.

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: M y grandparents got tired of pogroms

AGplusone: The Irish greatgrandparents got tired of starving.

geeairmoe2: In 'normal' society you can cruise along whether you want it or not.

DenvToday: Interesting note: More Jews were summarily expelled from Arab countries after the founding of...

AGplusone: The Italian grandfather left because there waa a feud back home that would have

AGplusone: killed him had he returned.

DenvToday: ...Israel than there were Arabs who lost their homes in the new state of Israel.

DenvToday: All all Arabs were invited to stay in Israel.

fgherman: And the Arabs were asked to stay

AGplusone: And some did.

DenvToday: They left to consolidate, then attack.

AGplusone: A friend of ours is Druse.

AGplusone: She left last year with her family. Said it was safe anymore.

geeairmoe2: I'm half-need, half-desire. Looking for a better life for one set of anschestors ...

geeairmoe2: ... escaping religious persecution from the other.

AGplusone: I think the Cubanos probably have been weeded a bit ... have some of the pioneer spirit, on both sides

AGplusone: of the Miami straits.

DenvToday: I never cease to admire the Cubans who take to those leaky rafts to come here.

fgherman: Even with all the hardship involved, I don't think there isn't a one of us who wouldn't help colonize

DenvToday: I know in my heart I would never have that kind of courage.

fgherman: space if we were allowed to go.

AGplusone: Odd, though, isn't it, the ones like the half of the Gonzalez family who stay ...

DenvToday: Felicia, true. lol

AGplusone: because it's their home.

AGplusone: The Reformers who stayed and fought the Cavaliers eventually.

AGplusone: "Roundheads" a generation or two later.

SAcademy: I heard an American ambassador today talking abaout what WE have done to others in the way of bombing

AGplusone: Which one?

fgherman: Remember, America was settled by folks who cut and run rather than stay and fight.

SAcademy: Can't remember his name.

geeairmoe2: Heard that, too. Don't know which ambassador it was.

DenvToday: Felicia, stay and fight who? There was no organized resistance. Cromwell was a generation later.

SAcademy: We've been bombing indiscriminately all over the globe.

geeairmoe2: Isn't the State Department types always the last to get on board?

AGplusone: Maybe his argument was 'bombing' doesn't solve anything. The only way you do it, is put troops

AGplusone: on the ground, and settle it finally.

fgherman: The Church of England, for example, with the Pilgrims

AGplusone: Do the Germans or the Japanese hate us today because we finally settled their hash

AGplusone: by invading and then occuping them for, in Germany's case, nearly a half century

fgherman: Maybe we should settle France's hash; they hate us

SAcademy: I doubt that they all love us.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: in Japan's for (if you count Okinawa) still that time too.

fgherman: I'm with Machiavelli on this one: better to be feared than loved.

AGplusone: I agree ...

DenvToday: Speaking of Japan...have any of you read Clancy's Debt of Honor?

geeairmoe2: Lived in Japan 70-73 and the older Japaneese still walked on eggshells around Americans.

AGplusone: Yes., of course.

AGplusone: Nice prediction, eh?

DenvToday: It was eerie.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin' Joel.

DenvToday: Hi Joel

fgherman: Hi sweetie

joelrmpls: Hi, all.

AGplusone: "sweetie"? You haven't been reading his posts! Nuclear warmonger!

SAcademy: Hello, Joel

geeairmoe2: Hello recent arrivals.

AGplusone: :-D

fgherman: You don't have to sleep with him

fgherman: :-)

AGplusone: some of us are lucky!

fgherman: besides, I mostly agree with him

AGplusone: The pioneering spirit leds to the same sort of spirit that some fear is lacking

geeairmoe2: Being a pioneer does take a certain kind of confident arrogance.

AGplusone: today in the polulace if we're to settle the 'terrorist' hash.

DenvToday: I have the pioneering spirit in abundance. What I lack is tolerance for any sort of discomfort.

geeairmoe2: The "Nothing can stop me" attitude.

DenvToday: Or danger.

AGplusone: leads

fgherman: We haven't been tested yet; you just watch

AGplusone: I listened to a cautionary program on PBS last night ... instant gratification won't cut it

WJaKe: Where on Earth is there to be a pioneer anymore?

AGplusone: was the point Moyer and others tried to make.

DenvToday: I'd be happy to pioneer any place with Good cigars and a Sizzler.

AGplusone: No surgical strikes will solve what's facing us.

DenvToday: David, I fear you're right.

AGplusone: The spirit of doing without new car models, putting up with rationing, etc., is what we need to know

AGplusone: we're going to face.

AGplusone: Same spirit as the pioneers.

AGplusone: Full mobilization ...

WJaKe: I think you're wrong. We have more economic backbone now then we had in WWII

AGplusone: war footing. No "great society" and war at the same time.

DenvToday: What good would that do? Sending 20 divisions to Afghanistan wouldn't solve a thing.

AGplusone: Maybe it won't take 1939-45, Jake, but you cannot expect guns and butter to work.

DenvToday: We need to bully governments into handing over the terrorists.

geeairmoe2: I've been waiting for some pundits on TV to talk about an economic war ...

AGplusone: How do you know, Denv. Because the Russians couldn't.

AGplusone: ?

geeairmoe2: ... everyone seems to concentrate on military options.

AGplusone: The Russians had to face a guerrilla war, and no guerrilla war has ever succeeded without outside supp

WJaKe: Because we don't need the kind and quantity of guns needed in the past

geeairmoe2: Cutting off their funds should be a first, bloodless option.

AGplusone: ort, which the Afghanstanis had. From us, and bin Laden.

joelrmpls: Yup; I sure am concentrating on military options, as a way of motivating proper political ones.

WJaKe: THis will be a covert "war", most likely, as there is no country to invade.

joelrmpls: Among other things.

joelrmpls: And, yes, I'm a nuclear warmonger.

AGplusone: Only way we wouldn't need the kind and quanities of arms and troops on the ground is if we used

geeairmoe2: I'd first option in a 'dinosuar', so that wavering allies could see what an accidental tail swipe ...

AGplusone: the nuclear or ABC options.

geeairmoe2: ... could do to them.

AGplusone: That's unacceptible for too many.

joelrmpls: I don't come to that casually, but in other places -- not here -- the option is apparently too icky...

DenvToday: We don't need to bomb population centers. We inform harboring governments that they will hand over...

joelrmpls: ... to discuss, and anybody who would is subhuman.

AGplusone: Because of the collateral effects.

geeairmoe2: Opps, sorry for that fallout. Who's side are you on again?

WJaKe: And you still don't know where to drop the A-bomb!

DenvToday: ...the terrorists. They can do this. If they don't, we start killing from the top up. We start...

joelrmpls: I could give you six targets, right now,

WJake.

DenvToday: ...shooting presidents. Then Vice-presidents...then generals. Down the line.

DenvToday: top down, I meant.

WJaKe: But are you sure you will hit terrorists there?

AGplusone: I disagree about a covert war. I think the only way to win is occupy the ground.

joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely -- if you include "military and governmental headquarters of states that ...

fgherman: I wonder what Robert would have said?

AGplusone: Cf. Starship Troopers.

joelrmpls: ... have sponsored terrorism that has resulted in the deaths of US citizens."

AGplusone: "Navy types" always think differently, and they're wrong.

geeairmoe2: Since the Gulf too many people can't give up on the dream of a 'clean' war.

joelrmpls: Remember: this was a response to the US involvement in the Gulf War.

AGplusone: Johnson and Nixon thought "bomb Hanoi" or "bomb Cambodia" would win. They were wrong.

WJaKe: The Gulf War was too easy because it was too limited.

WJaKe: We won the battle without resolving the conflict.

DenvToday: I'm disturbed by the casual acceptance that police state restrictions on all of our lives will be...

DenvToday: ...necessary. Nobody seems outraged by that.

AGplusone: There were no 'police state' restrictions during WW2.

WJaKe: what sort of restrictions do you refer to? Let's talk specifics.

joelrmpls: And that's pretty much what's likely to happen, now -- at most, a restricted invasion of Afghanistan..

geeairmoe2: Terrorists need to look into the eyes of the soldiers who put the bullet into their foreheads.

fgherman: I know that a large number of us are concerned by that.

DenvToday: To protect our airplanes, it's very simple. Allow passengers to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

joelrmpls: ... and more talk about a "war on terrorism", that'll be about as effective as the "war on drugs."

AGplusone: The folk would lived in GBritain or the US were appalled when they found out what 'police state'

joelrmpls: But, let's say that we can wave a wand and make suicidal hijacking bombings impossible. Wave it. ok:

AGplusone: meant is eastern Europe under the communists, or in Germany, after the war, under the Nazis

joelrmpls: Do you think we've ended terrorism against the US?

AGplusone: "in" eastern Europe

AGplusone: No.

joelrmpls: What happens when, just to pick an example, OSB's buddies, still at loose -- or Arafat's -- hijack...

WJaKe: No, we wouldn't.

AGplusone: The only way to "end" terrorism is deny it a refuge ... north of the Yalu River

joelrmpls: ...a gasoline tanker, drive it to the Mall of America, where they meet their friends with the ...

geeairmoe2: A lot of me hopes we ended it, but most of me fears it'll get worse before it gets better.

joelrmpls: McVeigh-style bombs.

AGplusone: and the only way you end the refuge is occupy it.

AGplusone: Not bomb it.

WJaKe: so now we need to occupy China?

joelrmpls: I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I don't think that there would have been any refuge in, say,

AGplusone: Not fighting China, yet

joelrmpls: Tokyo if Harry Truman had decided to blow it up.

WJaKe: You're headed that way aren't you? north of the Yalu River?

geeairmoe2: One commentator mentioned some Europeans marvel at how we have public trash cans.

joelrmpls: From the Puppet Masters: "We're going to have to learn to live with this horror."

AGplusone: Today we're fighting Southwest Asian refuges

joelrmpls: The Israelis have, for years.

AGplusone: Figuratively speaking, Jake, yes.

WJaKe: I thought we were fighting Mid-Eastern ex-patriates.

AGplusone: Land at Haiffa, and proceed east.

geeairmoe2: The Phillipines have a Islamic terrorist problem, too.

joelrmpls: I think that the PA component of the problem is the easiest to handle, from the US POV.

AGplusone: then solve it in its time

WJaKe: PA?

AGplusone: if the Filipinos cannot handle it

joelrmpls: How about the Bekaa? Syria? the Emirates? Libya? Sudan? Cuba?

DenvToday: Pennsylvania. We wipe out Pennsylvania.

fgherman: Palestinian "Authority"

DenvToday: Oh.

joelrmpls: PA = "Palestinian Authority" Arafat's police state.

geeairmoe2: Someone expert, quiote confident, said Isreal can handle the PA and Hammas ...

WJaKe: But I thought Arafat was appaled at errorism, denounced it in every way!

geeairmoe2: ... if the US would allow them.

WJaKe: er, terrorism.

joelrmpls: But remember, unless we restrict ourselves to Al Quiada, we're talking about a dozen states.

AGplusone: Coming back from Philadelphia, considering the weather, maybe we should wipe out Pennsylvania ...

AGplusone: while we're at it. ;-)

fgherman: Take a lot of pesky relatives of mine

joelrmpls: As to Arafat being "appalled" about terrorism, actions speak louder than words, and he's deliberately

AGplusone: Mine too

geeairmoe2: There was a claim that bin Laden had cells in 55 countries. Some said 34.

joelrmpls: let known terrorists out of his jails.

joelrmpls: Cells are one thing -- I'm just talking about national entities that support Al Quaida. There's...

AGplusone: So, we tell 34 countries, stamp them out or we're coming in to stamp them out for you, or with you.

joelrmpls: ... at least Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Sudan.

AGplusone: I think the national entities are pretty easy to identify.

joelrmpls: And by "support", I don't mean just "cheer on."

WJaKe: Again, if you can find these cells.

AGplusone: That means remove the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and the Sudan, etc., and replace them

AGplusone: with Adenhauers.

joelrmpls: Again: it's not the cells. We, manifestly, have an Al Quiada cell in Minnesota.

joelrmpls: Or, at least, had.

WJaKe: So replace the govt. of Minnesota?

joelrmpls: But I think it's fair to say that was without the support of the government of Minnesota.

AGplusone: If that means occupation, for the fifty years we've had NATO in Germany, then so be it.

DenvToday: Joel, I don't think the U.S. has the knowledge--or the will--to really attack terrorist groups.

joelrmpls: WJake, if you insist on refusing to acknowledge the difference between hidden terrorist cells...

geeairmoe2: The Russians never had mid-east terrorist problems. They had a unique solution...

WJaKe: :-DYeah, but I had to take at poke at Gov. The Mind

joelrmpls: ... and states that support terrorist organizations, there's really nothing we can talk about.

DenvToday: We'll give lip service, but that's all. Or we might wipe out one branch of the tree.

geeairmoe2: ... when a Russian was kidnapped, the next day the kidnappers received the ...

AGplusone: Clancy makes that point, Gee

geeairmoe2: ... body part of a close relative and a note suggesting many future deliveries.

ddavitt: sorry folks; hi to those who arrived after I left to feed the baby. I will have to go for good as

AGplusone: and I agree.

WJaKe: I do acknowledge the difference. That is what I see as the root problem, finding the hidden cells!

joelrmpls: It wasn't the next day; it took weeks, and at least one of the packages they sent included the body...

fgherman: Bye Jane

ddavitt: David is not yet back and I need to start cooking.

joelrmpls: ...parts of an infant girl.

ddavitt: Night.

DenvToday: Bye Jane

joelrmpls: Bye, Jane.

AGplusone: bye

geeairmoe2: Take care, Jane.

WJaKe: bye Jane

ddavitt has left the room.

joelrmpls: WJake, could you do something about that awful yellow color of your name?

DenvToday: The Israelis know. If we use Mossad, it could be done.

WJaKe: I don't know, it's red on my screen

DenvToday: We wouldn't even have to do it ourselves. All we would have to do is give the Israelis the go-ahead.

AGplusone: The problem is the (now it's blue, Jake)

fgherman: Your own name always shows up in red

joelrmpls: The issue of "extinguishing terrorist cells" <> "extinguishing the governments that support them"

geeairmoe2: I'm not sure Body Part Parcel Post would work with these guys, though.

AGplusone: 5 o'clock news.

joelrmpls: I'm not advocating that; I'm just pointing out that's what they did.

geeairmoe2: It would be worth a try.

joelrmpls: As to the Mossad, I'm not sure that they have accurate targetting information about terrorist...

WJaKe: I know joel, I agree with you on that, cells and govts.

joelrmpls: ...organizations in, say, Baghdad.

AGplusone: Maybe not. Joel and Clancy simply pointed out how the Russians made the targeting of Americans prefer-

AGplusone: able to targeting Russians.

joelrmpls: Of course it's preferable -- and we do all realize that OSB could have gotten a higher bodycount...

BPRAL22169: It seems to me if we could choke off bin Ladin's funding source -- Hussein -- the problem reduces

BPRAL22169: in size instantly.

joelrmpls: ... with just one plane, don't we?

joelrmpls: Funding, political support, all of that, sure.

AGplusone: Exactly, or his funding from Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or Syria

geeairmoe2: Cut off his money, isolate known associates.

BPRAL22169: The consensus seems to be Hussein is the principal source.

AGplusone: that means destablilize those governments, and replace them

WJaKe: I thought OSB had inherited money?

AGplusone: Hussein gets his money from all those sources.

BPRAL22169: We don't have a particularly good record at placing puppet governments.

fgherman: Only 330 million

WJaKe: Or has burned up the several hundred million dollars mentioned/

AGplusone: Either they stop their subjects. Sure we do. Everyone forgets we replaced Hitler and Tojo

joelrmpls: ... but the Emirates are major contributors, too. You don't block a faucet with a fork.

geeairmoe2: Weren't we able to freeze a lot of Iranian assests during the hostage holding?

AGplusone: rather successfully.

AGplusone: We did that by all out war on those governments and by occupying the ground'

BPRAL22169: I rther thought Tojo reigned until his death.

joelrmpls: We did, but only after unconditional surrender, and a commitment to military occupation.

AGplusone: Why did he die, Bill.

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: And we did not replace Hitler -- we accepted an existing government in place.

geeairmoe2: It goes directly to how willing are we to hold them to "You're either for us, or against us." ...

joelrmpls: Al Quaida is funded by, at least in part, the Emirates. Note that nobody is talking about action....

joelrmpls: .... against them.

BPRAL22169: You are right about Tojo -- I was thinking Hirohito.

DenvToday: Joel, there are many methods to stamp out terrorism. Some are better than others, but the essential..

geeairmoe2: ... what happens when an Afghani mother's starving baby shows up all over TV.

DenvToday: ...question is this: Does the U.S. have the will to actually do it? To get down and dirty?

AGplusone: What happened that enabled us to replace Hitler.

joelrmpls: Denv: Yup.

BPRAL22169: But assassinating a chief of staff is not the same as placing a puppet government.

AGplusone: We didn't accept the existing government, what remained after Hitler, we immediately put it on trial

AGplusone: and hanged most of it.

DenvToday: I hope you're right.

joelrmpls: Puppet governments are easy to do -- after unconditional surrender. Before, no.

joelrmpls: We actually hanged very, very little of it.

AGplusone: After we accepted its surrender.

joelrmpls: Take a look at the stats at Nuremberg sentences, sometime.

AGplusone: Well, now, what exactly happened to the guy who surrendered?

BPRAL22169: Doenitz?

AGplusone: Yes.

joelrmpls: He got off. Not the worse call ever made.

BPRAL22169: I think he had a short sentence.

DenvToday: Doenitz got ten years

BPRAL22169: I don't remember the specifics of the Nuremberg verdicts any more.

AGplusone: that took him out of action, didn't it?

BPRAL22169: Except a few -- Hess, Goering, etc.

joelrmpls: Take a look -- it might be very instructive, after you get past the few who were hanged.

fgherman: Beats hanging, though

AGplusone: We didn't exactly accept their government, did we?

joelrmpls: I'm in favor of giving Arafat a suspended sentence.

fgherman: Amen

AGplusone: Yes, we know, Joel.

geeairmoe2: I worry about the will of our MTV watching, video-game playing soldiers ...

DenvToday: Suspended over a gibbet?

geeairmoe2: ... will the stick it out.

BPRAL22169: Yes, we accepted the government and set up civil elections, with a military occupation interim

AGplusone: for how long?

joelrmpls: I'm not worried about the will of the military -- I am worried about the will of the US govt, and...

joelrmpls: ... the US population.

DenvToday: Joel, my point exactly.

BPRAL22169: I dont recall, exactly -- it was still going on when Patton died.

geeairmoe2: All of it, agreed.

AGplusone: In 1961 when I got there it was still an occupation, whether we recognized Konrad or not

BPRAL22169: "Denazification"

joelrmpls: ... and note how easily "denazification" was suspended, and for whom.

AGplusone: Whether we let Konrad have a little army or not

DenvToday: Pragmatism wins every time over noble philosophies.

DenvToday: That sounds cynical, but it's true.

joelrmpls: If there's a land war, the numbers of US servicemen coming home in bodybags will be huge.

WJaKe has left the room.

AGplusone: Today, the Seventh Army is still on the ground over there ...

fgherman: Ginny, you've lived through something like this before; do you think we have what it takes?

joelrmpls: Note that the leaders are talking in the vaguest generalities, and even qualifying those.

joelrmpls: See Wolfowitz's "clarification" yesterday.

AGplusone: Will they really? Didn't Hackman predict 10,000 casualties in Irag, Joel?

DenvToday: Yep. Lots of qualifying and revising going on today.

SAcademy: Sorry, I don't knnow whether we do have it any more Felicia.

AGplusone: yet the "Republican Guard" melted, didn't it?

DenvToday: I felt something of what we had then last week when I watched Band of Brothers. I went and looked...

joelrmpls: Dupuy predicted 300, mostly from friendly fire.

DenvToday: ...at my father's Bronze Star. Something I hadn't done in years.

AGplusone: Hitler and Tojo both had a dedicated populance on their side. Gott Mit Uns!

AGplusone: Banzai!

joelrmpls: One of the reasons that I favor the nuclear option is that I don't think we have it.

AGplusone: Does bin Ladin have that?

AGplusone: Does Hussein have that?

joelrmpls: I do think the only way we can win, for a sufficiently serious value of "win", is ...

fgherman: He doesn't need it

joelrmpls: ...via a shortcut.

geeairmoe2: I worry about our current generation because the WWII generation were hardened by ...

AGplusone: Of course, not, in a terrorist war ... but I'm not talking about fighting a terrorist war.

geeairmoe2: ... the depression. The cureent generation's had no 'hardening'.

AGplusone: Agree, Will.

AGplusone: But is it really different?

DenvToday: Interesting side note: When we declared war on Japan, we didn't declare war on a nation.

geeairmoe2: They don't understand deprivation and sacrifice.

DenvToday: We declared war on one man--the Emporer.

AGplusone: That's the problem.

DenvToday: Emperor. Sorry.

joelrmpls: More depressing news: note how the Admin is lauding the Pakistanis, despite....

joelrmpls: ....them having rejected the most important US demand.

AGplusone: Is that today? I haven't watched the news today.

joelrmpls: Yup -- they've made it clear that they'll accept overflights, only. No US troops on...

joelrmpls: ...Pakistani soil.

AGplusone: What has Powell said? Or is it 'administration' voices only?

joelrmpls: State is dancing around whether or not we ever asked for that.

DenvToday: Yep Joel. I expected that.

geeairmoe2: We should remind of where we could stand should trouble with India crops up again.

joelrmpls: Oh, I think that we should abandon neutrality in India/Pakistan.

fgherman: "Go India"

joelrmpls: Yup.

joelrmpls: They've been living with this terror more than we have.

joelrmpls: If the Indians decide they need to take out Pakistani nuclear facilities, I think...

DenvToday: "I refuse to be impartial between the fire and the fire brigade." - W.S. Churchill

joelrmpls: ... we ought to provide targetting information, and air cover.

AGplusone: Well, India has its own problems regarding tolerance of other religions.

joelrmpls: I'm not saying that India is perfect -- quite the contrary. What I am saying is that...

AGplusone: I think the 'administration' better get told by its own citizenry that they better stop dancing

joelrmpls: ...we need to be much more generous about peccadilloes in our allies than we ...

joelrmpls: ...are about virtues in our enemies.

geeairmoe2: We ought to adopt that arab concept, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

joelrmpls: Cuba, for example, has nearly 100% literacy. I think that's a good thing.

AGplusone: And then turn our armies on them after we finish off the radical Islamites, like Patton wanted, Joel?

joelrmpls: But are we serious about stopping terrorism? Or just AlQuida?

DenvToday: Joel, that was true of Nazi Germany as well.

joelrmpls: On India?

geeairmoe2: To get most of the world onboard, they may demand 'come help get our terrorists, too'.

joelrmpls: See "Solution Unsatisfactory".

AGplusone: See, To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

fgherman: And what's wrong with that?

AGplusone: President Patton

joelrmpls: We have the opposite of a creeping mission right now. We have the . . .

joelrmpls: ... constantly shrinking mission.

joelrmpls: Which will work only if it's sufficiently instructive.

geeairmoe2: Be longer and bloodier to solve everyone's problem, but worht it to our children. Goes back ...

joelrmpls: see http://www.jerrypournelle.com

AGplusone: I think we should simply disestablish every government that sponsors terrorism against us.

fgherman: The thing that bothers me, is that no one really cared until someone other than Jews were being killed

geeairmoe2: ... to : do we have the guts to stick out to the end.

joelrmpls: I'm with you on that -- but note how many governments we have to disestablish...

joelrmpls: ...by that principle.

AGplusone: And by disestablish I mean land troops on their soil and replace them.

joelrmpls: We don't have a tenth the troops needed to occupy them, not with full mobilization.

AGplusone: As I said, land at Haiffa and turn east.

AGplusone: Really?

geeairmoe2: We had a president the last 8 years kissing Arab rear and blocking Israel in an ...

geeairmoe2: attempt to get himself a Peace Prize.

AGplusone: We had enough troops in 45

joelrmpls: And that's forgetting, for a moment, the nontrivial problem of conquering them.

AGplusone: And our population was half that, and our armed forces were reduced.

joelrmpls: We had enough troops in 1945, to -- with the help of our allies -- occupy two non-resisting

joelrmpls: countries.

AGplusone: Well, who's going to help them resist?

joelrmpls: Both of which had been thoroughly conquered.

AGplusone: that's what I'm proposing

geeairmoe2: I worry about getting prepared. I live next to Ft. Hood, largest military base in the world ...

geeairmoe2: ... and training would be two, three days a week because of lack of equipment.

joelrmpls: I know you are.

AGplusone: Yes, just like 1940 and 41.

geeairmoe2: Soldiers had nothing substantive to do the rest of the time.

AGplusone: I'm talking full mobilization.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

joelrmpls: Okay, how many divisions do we need to conquer, at a minimum, the following list:

AGplusone: Read the stories about training in 40 and 41 some day. Flour sacks, broomsticks, trucks labeled "tank"

AGplusone: 40 or 50

joelrmpls: Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Emirates, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Cuba and Libya?

AGplusone: Leave Cuba out. We don't need to worry about them.

joelrmpls: Okay.

AGplusone: One peep out of you and thermonuclear war.

joelrmpls: I'll even throw out Sudan, just to be generous.

AGplusone: Green glass covers Cuba

geeairmoe2: I go back to suggest we had a better, more hardened pool of men for combat in 41 than today.

AGplusone: Maybe so, but there are a few good men around who can harden.

fgherman: No, we've got Gulf War veterans

AGplusone: Doesn't matter. They're good men.

joelrmpls: Oh, absolutely -- but we had more blooded officers available in Korea. Look at all the retreads...

joelrmpls: HST called up.

AGplusone: They know what can be done.

AGplusone: We have to have a Kaserine Pass.

joelrmpls: I'm not doubting their courage, or their professionalism. I am doubting the numbers.

geeairmoe2: I hope so, but I see everyday the idiots we have in the Army.

AGplusone: That is what hardens.

AGplusone: The idiots get shaken out.

joelrmpls: Let's just look at Syria -- probably one of the easier places to conquer.

AGplusone: No, let's let the military look at Syria. That's what they're paid for.

geeairmoe2: The everyday grunts? Scary. But then, its only the idiots that make the news here.

geeairmoe2: I just may be seeing that black spot and forgetting the big, white paper its on.

joelrmpls: Okay; if you don't want to do the thought experiment, I won't force you. :-)

AGplusone: They'll do the thought experiment if we tell them to.

AGplusone: That's their job.

AGplusone: But we have to have the will to tell them and to follow through.

joelrmpls: Sure, they will. But it'll still take n number of soldiers to conquer a country of m millions.

fgherman: Hear, hear

AGplusone: That's what we're talking about "pioneer spirit"

joelrmpls: What if m < our total possible mobilization?

joelrmpls: Err, make that "what if n < our total possible mobilization"?

geeairmoe2: Its just that if what we have to use is what I've seen at Ft. Hood, it might be a high number.

AGplusone: We cannot have guns and butter ....

joelrmpls: Agreed.

geeairmoe2: Then again, the sight of that rubble in NYC might be the hardening we've lacked.

AGplusone: We can field eight armored division and 22 infantry divisions in a year if we do it.

joelrmpls: But let's assume that we're willing to lower our enlistment standards, and include, say, 47-year old

joelrmpls: ... fat guys with diabetes.

AGplusone: running Remingtons, sure

geeairmoe2: How tied in is the will the fight with the numbers needed.

fgherman: And their wives

joelrmpls: I'll accept your numbers on the divisions -- but how many did the Nazis have in the Balkans, alone?

AGplusone: it's the will ... I don't hear day that will live in infamy ... I don't hear declarations of war.

joelrmpls: Me, neither.

AGplusone: DivisionsWW 2 have nothing to do with Divisions today

joelrmpls: Except from Bob Barr, may his tribe increase.

geeairmoe2: Maybe the paranoia about the various citizen militias will drop a little.

joelrmpls: Okay -- how many of those thirty divisions do you think we need for Afghanistan, alone?

AGplusone: Almost as bad as armor battalions against one MI

AGplusone: All of them.

AGplusone: Clancy argues in his one recent Bear and whatever it was, that an Armor Division is sufficient today

joelrmpls: Which means, therefore, that we don't have enough for the other countries that need...

AGplusone: to do what at least a Corps did in WW 2

joelrmpls: ... the same attention.

joelrmpls: Oh, in terms of firepower vs. an enemy military, sure.

AGplusone: Not planning to land in Afghanistan first, Joel. First, as I said, you land at Haiffa.

geeairmoe2: Have we totally abandoned the 'war on two fronts' strategy?

AGplusone: And you clean out North Africa.

joelrmpls: Better watch out -- the natives will be throwing chocolate bars to the soldiers. :-)

AGplusone: Then you move on ...

geeairmoe2: In terms of prepardedness.

fgherman: lol

fgherman: Kosher ones

AGplusone: If the Russians want to join the fun and come in through the north, no one's going to say No.

joelrmpls: (Although I think Haifa would be suboptimal; Gaza could be cleared for the necessary...

joelrmpls: ...facilities by the time the ships arrived.

AGplusone: Haiffa is figuerative

joelrmpls: I know. :-)

fgherman: Ahh, 2 birds with one stone.

AGplusone: The point is: you clean out the area

joelrmpls: But I am trying to get a picture for how you think that the area *might* be cleaned out...

AGplusone: Stop off in Bagdad on the way

joelrmpls: ...by conventional forces, and how many you think it would take.

geeairmoe2: I actually so some airheads suggesting this wouldn't have happened if we weren't supportive of Israel.

AGplusone: Say hi to Hassein ....

geeairmoe2: Heard some airhead. My fingers are fading fast.

joelrmpls: Baghdad would be a hard nut to crack. Not impossible, mind you.

AGplusone: Was in reach in about 24 hours ten years ago.

joelrmpls: Oh, lots of airheads are suggesting this. Read rasff, if you've got the stomach for it.

geeairmoe2: rasff?

joelrmpls: Sure -- was in reach. And with the Republican Guard as badly shattered as it was...

fgherman: rec.arts.sf.fandom

joelrmpls: ...even Dupuy was saying that the casualties of a ground assault would be huge.

AGplusone: And the Republican Guard shattered pretty quickly.

AGplusone: yeah, well, lots of folk said casualties would be heavy.

joelrmpls: And that's just Baghdad.

AGplusone: We'll never know, will we?

AGplusone: And that took, what, 100 hours?

fgherman: If we'd been more supportive of Israel, this wouldn't have happened.

AGplusone: and a preparatory bombardment of what, two months?

joelrmpls: Sure. But an incompetent enemy, led by a military nutcase, isn't the worse opposition to face.

geeairmoe2: Whats the possiblity of one wellplaced nuke bringing the other countries around?

AGplusone: Who said any of the dictators are not military nutcases, all of them?

AGplusone: Do any of them have the German general staff handy?

joelrmpls: Oh, I think that the military dictator of Pakistan, for example, has apparently got some riffs.

AGplusone: Or the Imperial Japanese General Staff, hardened by conquering most of China.

joelrmpls: Thankfully, the German General Staff was handicapped by the Fuhrer.

AGplusone: We don't need nukes, unless Pakistan is stupid enough to employ them against us.

AGplusone: And I don't think Pakistan will last that long.

joelrmpls: And, to take another example, the Syrians have gotten a lot better since 1967, as...

joelrmpls: ....they demonstrated in 1973.

AGplusone: so ....

joelrmpls: As to the nukes, my guess is that if Kabul and Islamabad go, and the US expresses regret...

AGplusone: Are they going to stand up against us, the Brits, the French, the Israelis ...

joelrmpls: ...only for the necessity, that's all it would take for surrender of all the countries on the list.

AGplusone: the Turks

SAcademy: Nite, all. Gotta run

joelrmpls: The French won't mobilize to invade anybody -- at most, they'll send a couple of active divisions.

SAcademy has left the room.

joelrmpls: Night, ginny.

fgherman: Is having the French a help or a hindrance?

AGplusone: Maybe so ... maybe not. A couple armored divisions will help. The French aren't a great army

AGplusone: good at surrendering

joelrmpls: Oh, I dunno -- they surrender real, real purty.

joelrmpls: Damn. You beat me to it.

fgherman: (lol)

AGplusone: But we can use the foreign legion

geeairmoe2: One wag said: The French don't care if Americans are killed, but when their own people die ...

AGplusone: We used it in Desert Strike

geeairmoe2: ... French were among those killed in the towers.

AGplusone: Exactly, they may have to go along.

joelrmpls: Sure. But just, randomly, assuming that we can beat any army by matching numbers of divisions...

AGplusone: I don't assume anything.

geeairmoe2: There was a real good, utterly obscene comment about the French. Wish I could remember it.

geeairmoe2: The fight with their feet and f**k with their face, I think it was.

joelrmpls: Ok. I'll stop blueskying numbers now.

JudyjediJudy has entered the room.

AGplusone: But I don't assume that anything Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or anyone else ....

fgherman: Welcome Judy

AGplusone: Hi, "filly"?

JudyjediJudy: Hi Felicia.

joelrmpls: That's "Mommy" to you, young lady!

fgherman: That's "Mom" to you.

JudyjediJudy: Okay , Okay.

geeairmoe2: I had an uncle always telling DeGaulle jokes to me because I was born in France.

joelrmpls: *whap!*

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Stephanie.

geeairmoe2: No, I'm not French. Army brat.

AGplusone: We're fighting WW III against the middle east

geeairmoe2: My favorite joke was: DeGaulle died today. He got hit by a speedboat while trying to walk on water.

fgherman: Hi Stephanie

AGplusone: started by talking about 'pioneer spirit' and is it dead, and transitioned into this

JudyjediJudy: (lol)

Merfilly8: Hello all

Musiquelle26 has entered the room.

AGplusone: I read some of RAH's letters to Campbell in Grumbles, ca. December 41, and on ...

Merfilly8 has left the room.

AGplusone: and had to wonder what his feelings would be.

geeairmoe2: Same outrage, I'd guess.

geeairmoe2: Immedietly look for some way to help the war effort.

Musiquelle26 has left the room.

AGplusone: Is there really any choice in what our response should be here?

JudyjediJudy: Nope.

AGplusone: Do we just cosmetically engage in a reprisal and go back to business .... as usual, and wait for the

AGplusone: next time?

AGplusone: Or do we actually deliberately set out to replace governments that support terrorism?

geeairmoe2: I like a big, showy splash that makes any potential fence-sitters think REAL hard.

joelrmpls: I think we take a "middle course". I think we replace the Taliban, and make some noises.

AGplusone: "Why do today, what you can put off to tomorrow?"

AGplusone: I think we'll do that unless we continue to send outraged letters to shrub

DJedPar: Shrub?

AGplusone: Really outraged letters.

AGplusone: Bush, Jr.

joelrmpls: And I think that we institute a whole bunch of "domestic security" precautions...

joelrmpls: ... that are the equivalent of closing all Sbarros in Israel.

geeairmoe2: Cut back on that 'Shrub' bit or you'll get an outraged letter from me. :-)

AGplusone: aka "Dazed and confused" ... I feel like a republican in 41, thinking I have to close ranks on the

AGplusone: traitor to my class.

Musiquelle26 has entered the room.

joelrmpls: I think he's going to have to live with that, just like "Landslide Lyndon" did.

AGplusone: :-)

joelrmpls: As to what we should do, I've been clear on that, and don't need to repeat it.

DJedPar: Where is Piaf when you need her?

geeairmoe2: Okay, instead of what SHOULD we do, what WILL we do?

geeairmoe2: Predictions.

joelrmpls: As I said: I think what we will do is engage in a military operation that might:

AGplusone: I hope, pray we do what we should do.

joelrmpls: a) get bin Laden

geeairmoe2: (I feel like McLughlin)

joelrmpls: b) destabilize the Taliban.

joelrmpls: and, and most c) occupy Afghanistan.

joelrmpls: I think that the other terrorist nations will, at worst, suffer some economic sanctions.

joelrmpls: And diplomatic ones, too.

fgherman: Alas

joelrmpls: "We've recalled our Ambassador, Mr. Assad. Now you'll tremble!"

joelrmpls: "And today, my fellow Americans, I've sent a stiff note to Muamar Ghaddffi."

AGplusone: I do not think it makes military sense to do (c) unless you remove the threats to your rear and flanks

geeairmoe2: I think that pretty well nails it. Will it be enough.

AGplusone: and that means Syria, Iraq, and probably Pakistan.

joelrmpls: Agreed. but I'm not talking about what makes military sense, but what I think we'll do.

AGplusone: Unless there's a coup in Pakistan.

geeairmoe2: For me, the two unknows seem to be: Do we have the will to do?

AGplusone: We cannot do that. Powell will not allow it.

geeairmoe2: And will the fence-sitters come quickly to our side.

joelrmpls: 50-50, the agreement to overflights will trigger that, assuming that we use the airspace.

AGplusone: Unless Powell gets the ducks in a row, there will be no invasion of Afghanistan ...

joelrmpls: Will it be enough? Enough for what?

joelrmpls: Shut down the Arab terror network? Nah.

geeairmoe2: How much is the Syria leadership and military tied together. Can we see a coup there?

AGplusone: Overflights aren't sufficient. We'll either get nothing but gestures, or we'll get:

AGplusone: "Well, now we're going to land troops in Pakistan. Either with us or 'agin' us, Pakistan? What's it

AGplusone: going to be?"

joelrmpls: Felicia just point out that I'm not the only person in the world advocating nuclear strikes.

geeairmoe2: I know Saddem and the Iraqi military are one and the same.

joelrmpls: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010914-87723680. htm

geeairmoe2: I'll join that list.

AGplusone: I'm sure Jerry Falwell is advocating strikes too, Joel; but Jerry IIRC had his daddy's congressman

AGplusone: pull him off the boat into Inchon Harbor.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

joelrmpls: Actually, Jerry Falwell isn't. He explains that the problem is all the abortion-advocating lesbians.

TAWN3: Hi all

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn ... welcome to the WW III in the middle east sipping and chowder club

DenvToday: Hello Tawn

DJedPar: Hi Tawn

fgherman: Hello Tawn

AGplusone: nice to have someone who's going to have to do it with us. They call you up yet, Captain?

TAWN3: No, not yet.

TAWN3: Expect to be though.

fgherman: Anything that we can do to help?

TAWN3: Give blood.

TAWN3: :-)

fgherman: Will do

joelrmpls: Red Cross says to call this week; I checked this morning.

Musiquelle26: I was asked to come back next week, with an appointment at the blood center

TAWN3: Yes, response has ben good all over the country.

fgherman: Especially with those "cold, unfeeling New Yorkers"

joelrmpls: The US culture gives good warmth, at least in a crisis.

AGplusone: It was nice to know that the Philly Red Cross immediately shipped our blood north to NYC on 9/11

joelrmpls: That's a virtue, but it's not the only virtue needed, right now.

Musiquelle26: I stand among the awed that our country does work well in times of crisis.

AGplusone: Forgetting for a moment that you're a reserve officer, what do you think the response should be, Tawn?

TAWN3: It's our strength.

Musiquelle26: I'm too young to remember anything approaching the unity I have seen lately.

AGplusone: Is it time to put an end to terrorist governments in the Muddle East?

fgherman: It's been along time since we've needed to be this united.

Musiquelle26: Muddle fits

TAWN3: In my personal opinion, yes.

geeairmoe2: The U.S. is like brothers who will wail upon one another, but God help some outsider doing it.

fgherman: Way past time

AGplusone: Yes, I mistyped, corrected, and then retyped the error.

joelrmpls: In other news, Iran has closed its border with Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: good

joelrmpls: They feel that they have enough Afghani refugees, already.

geeairmoe2: To keep out refugees.

AGplusone: Oh, yeah ... the Imanis are saying: "Count us out of this!"

joelrmpls: Yup -- they're buddies, you see, but not that kind of buddies.

TAWN3: Is Afghan Shii?

AGplusone: We'll send them arms ... if we can get away with it.

TAWN3: I suppose I should know that, hadn't thought to find out before

geeairmoe2: Whichever is more radical, Shii or Suni, that's Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: I don't think so

joelrmpls: Mainly Sunni; about 15% Shiites.

joelrmpls: "Religions: Sunni Muslim 84%, Shi'a Muslim 15%, other 1%" www.cia.gov

AGplusone: Shii down south in the marches that Kissinger and Bush left to hang.

TAWN3: Ok. I usually think of Persians as Shiite

AGplusone: marshes

joelrmpls: Persians are, largely, Shiite.

joelrmpls: Afghans are sort of Persian Lite.

joelrmpls: "Less cultured, more violent."

joelrmpls: I've got to go make dinner now; later, all.

AGplusone: later

TAWN3: Shiites (Persians) say the Arabs broke the chain of succession with the seventh "ruler"

joelrmpls has left the room.

fgherman: Good night all. I've got to help him make dinner.

TAWN3: So, in a strict sense, by definition, Shiite is the more politically radical

fgherman has left the room.

Musiquelle26: On a semi-related note, what happened with the trials the Taliban was holding of those

TAWN3: But that's different

Musiquelle26: relief workers?

JudyjediJudy: I'm leaving.

JudyjediJudy has left the room.

AGplusone: Which ones? the UN types?

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Or the indigenious citizens?

geeairmoe2: There have been veiled threats to retaliation against foriegners.

Musiquelle26: THe ones who allegedely advocated Christianity, The UN type

TAWN3: Hey Joel, that was good! Persian lite. :-)

AGplusone: UN evacuated yesterday ... all of them.

Musiquelle26: I have not had ten minutes to myself until this evening, unfortunately

AGplusone: How's everyone, Stephanie?

AGplusone: {or all that could get out}

AGplusone: Ebon?

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Musiquelle26: Paula's still doing well, no more treatments, Kevin's recovering froma torn calf, and the

Musiquelle26: babies are yard apes now

AGplusone: Good.

AGplusone: a remission then, I take it?

Musiquelle26: We'll know for sure in a few weeks when she does her post check-up

AGplusone: crossing fingers

Musiquelle26: But it looked favorable on the end-treatment biopsy

TAWN3: Did anyone read L. Niel Smith's commentary the day of the attack?

AGplusone: I haven't. You have a link?

DenvToday: Do you have a link?

TAWN3: Someone posted it on the Heinleiners list, I'll dig it up and send it to you

AGplusone: okay ....

DenvToday: tyvm

TAWN3: Basically, he was predicting that we would all be instantly ruled by a police state

TAWN3: immediately as a result of the attacks.

Musiquelle26: I have a question, and I hope no one gets upset, but I'm trying to catch impressions

TAWN3: It was divorced from reality IMHO

Musiquelle26: What was everyone's first, non-thought reaction?

geeairmoe2: Some libertarians may have made a serious PR blunder bringing that up so fast after the bombing.

TAWN3: We were at war.

AGplusone: Funny, tho ... he just sent out a take-off on Harry Bellefonte's Day-Oh, called ....

geeairmoe2: Made it look like all they cared about was their own personal needs.

geeairmoe2: And nothing for 5,000 innocent dead.

AGplusone: "The Pay Back Song" ....

AGplusone: Some libertarians need to have their heads spaced, which is why I ain't one.

AGplusone: Pearl Harbor, Filly.

TAWN3: And timed David, don't forget the timing.

AGplusone: That too

TAWN3: Yeah, I thought Pearl Harbor as well.

geeairmoe2: I was wondering, like with Pearl Harbor lore, how long before someone claims ...

AGplusone: Wait until we have the mass funerals.

geeairmoe2: ... the government let them bomb the towers for some political reason.

TAWN3: No one has any idea what we are talking about :-)

AGplusone: Filly knows.

TAWN3: Did anyone see the Father Mike funeral today? That was the most moving service I have ever

TAWN3: seen I think.

Musiquelle26: I had just gotten to work, and the last guy in said "A plane crashed into the WTC"

AGplusone: Head spacing and timing is what you do with a .50 cal. to make sure it doesn't blow up in your face

AGplusone: when you fire it.

Musiquelle26: I thought he was making a sick joke, but went to pull it up on the internet

DJedPar: Lots of people behave irrationally/improperly in time of crisis.

geeairmoe2: I was thinking spacing and timing had something to do with spark plugs.

AGplusone: My wife woke me up into the middle of it.

Musiquelle26: We listened to AM radio all day at work, because we had no tv coverage

AGplusone: First thought was: Bush is going to get out of the economy mess because of this, then we saw it was

AGplusone: very serious, and oh-oh.

TAWN3: However, you can't account for operator headspace!

AGplusone: No, you cannot.

TAWN3: Forgat to send that off before.

geeairmoe2: My father, works Physical Security (Customs) at Ft. Hood, called. It was after the second ...

geeairmoe2: ... plane hit the its tower. What really numbed me was seeing the tower collapse.

AGplusone: Yes, that happened right after I got the first cup of tea into me.

DenvToday: Same here. I thought there would be a gash in the tower and that woudl be it.

DenvToday: When I saw the tower collapse, I got light-headed. Unreal. Couldn't belive it.

TAWN3: Yes, I saw that live. It was all raher shocking.

AGplusone: And when I saw it pancake I knew there'd be thousands dead.

Musiquelle26: I felt shock, then anger.

AGplusone: a real cold rage

Musiquelle26: yes

AGplusone: and then fear that no one would do anything real about it.

TAWN3: I'm surprised the death count is so low. That says a lot for US construction and society.

AGplusone: And that's what scares me today.

AGplusone: It does.

Musiquelle26: From what we hear, the evacuation was going rapidly and in a controlled manner

TAWN3: What is that David?

AGplusone: I thought 40k for sure.

Musiquelle26: So did we

TAWN3: I did too.

DenvToday: It's going to be about 6 thousand dead all told.

AGplusone: The fear that our leaders will piddle fuck around this thing.

geeairmoe2: I was hopefully optimistic, thinking there had been time for many, many to make it out.

Musiquelle26: We overestimated the plane deaths and could not fathom how many in the towers

DJedPar: You are correct AG, unfortunately.

TAWN3: No. I'm afraid of just the opposite David.

AGplusone: Send in a few missles and say: "See, we showed them!"

AGplusone: What opposite, Tawn?

TAWN3: No, no way. Congress and the administration all take this far to serious

AGplusone: A precipitous invasion?

TAWN3: I hope we don't go to far and stat a universal Jihad.

Musiquelle26: Solid airstrikes accompanied by ground forces is what many here want

TAWN3: I don't think we will, but....

TAWN3: No, we need to invade.

AGplusone: I think we have to take them one at a time.

AGplusone: "With us, or agin' us?" Next country: "With us, or agin' us?" Next country: etc. and ditto.

TAWN3: We need to wipe out the entire structure of terror networks.

AGplusone: We do.

Musiquelle26: Declare an "Enemies of USA list, and check them all off with decisive action

AGplusone: Sure. Just like the old Attorney Generals' list of organizations.

geeairmoe2: I think it was Wm F Buckley who advocated, take out a known enemey and if they weren't ...

AGplusone: There's no free speech issue.

AGplusone: They're not citizens, and there's a clear imminent danger.

geeairmoe2: ... responsible, apoligize and move on to the next enemy.

Musiquelle26: I want to see retribution in the form of military action.

AGplusone: I agree with Buckley for the first time in years.

AGplusone: But no one ever accused him of being unable to think clearly.

TAWN3: once we attack, it will be all out war, terrorists will throw everything they have at us

AGplusone: I want to see an occupation like that of Germany.

TAWN3: once they realize it is "use it or lose it".

AGplusone: They will.

AGplusone: Just as Hitler landed those subs in North Carolina.

geeairmoe2: The problem with occupation is you provide a target for every little piss-ant radical.

DenvToday: I would rather them throw everything they have at us now rather than ten years from now when they...

DenvToday: ...have nukes.

DenvToday: If they had nukes now, they would have used them.

AGplusone: Yes, but ... there has to be support for guerrillas from the exterior.

AGplusone: I agree.

TAWN3: No, you can't occupy Afgan for long. Brits and Soviets found that out.

geeairmoe2: And if you get them all, you don't need to occupy. But a nice little nuke :-)

AGplusone: Don't need to occupy it long, and don't need to nuke it.

TAWN3: Exactly David.

TAWN3: Taliban is not universally loved in Afghan, and has commited crimes against humanity, such

AGplusone: Get it. Clear out the Taliban, get out, and leave them to their business.

geeairmoe2: One nuke, to underscore our seriousness. Not so much to kill the radicals ...

TAWN3: as destroying Bamiyan, which REALLY pissed me off!

AGplusone: Forget about nation building.

geeairmoe2: ... as to get the fencesitters formly with us.

AGplusone: NO nukes, unless we have to take out something when we invade.

TAWN3: I agree david, with nation building and aid to follow.

AGplusone: We don't need to use nukes unless we have a Harry Truman choice.

TAWN3: Or throw them to the Russians!

TAWN3: Say, hey, Putin, thanks for the support, they're all yours now. LOL

AGplusone: 'making points' doesn't ever, Will.

AGplusone: How do you scare a populance that hasn't a pot to piss in with a nuke?

geeairmoe2: Making points to those still rational.

AGplusone: There's no one rational in that country.

TAWN3: David, I disagree about nation building. After we do it, we have to help stabilize it.

TAWN3: Or the same problem will pop up.

AGplusone: Well, I think there's a possibility that trying to nation build will just turn us into 'oppressors'

AGplusone: for every tinpot demogogue.

AGplusone: Leave them to their goats ....

DenvToday: I still say we kill from the top down. The traditional way has been to kill thousands of soldiers...

TAWN3: Not do so while occupyinmg. This time, unlike Saudi, Get out.

DenvToday: ...and civilians to get to the top dog. Why do that?

AGplusone: I think top down is what we do when we occupy.

DenvToday: Kill heads of state.

AGplusone: Sift out the chaff, and destroy it and then leave.

TAWN3: Half of the problem today., if not more, is because we never left after the Gulf War.

AGplusone: Your village is yours again. See to it it stays that way. Bye.

DenvToday: Ask politely for the terrorists groups in their country. Give them 24 hours. Then ask the guys...

Musiquelle26: Thank you for an echo of opinion, Tawn

DenvToday: ...who has replaced the head of state we killed.

AGplusone: I agree with you Denv.

DenvToday: He'll be remarkably compliant, I'd say.

TAWN3: Sure Musiq.

AGplusone: and after we get two or three refusals, we declare war. Let them sit there looking foolish while we

AGplusone: build up. Send them photos of the building up.

AGplusone: Problem is: how do you get to the leaders when they go to the bush.

TAWN3: David, don't forget, it's not just the Taliban. It's Sudan, probably Yemen, many others, as

geeairmoe2: Sooner or later, nation building or no, we're going to have to leave, and it would help prevent ...

TAWN3: well as states who support it on the side, such as Iran.

DenvToday: Are we ready to get nasty?

geeairmoe2: ... having to do it all again if they had something indelible imprinted on their psyche that ...

TAWN3: We need to go into many places.

DenvToday: I mean really nasty?

DenvToday: You go after their families.

geeairmoe2: ... demonstrates what happen if you fall into bad habits.

AGplusone: I pointed out to Joel my theory. Land in Haifa, and start moving East. Clear out the whole muddle.

DenvToday: Do as we tell you to do or your children get it.

DenvToday: I know that sounds barbaric...

DenvToday: ...but is it less barbaric to kill ten thousand soliders to get to thim?

Musiquelle26: But has little effect Denv

TAWN3: Soviet style.

Musiquelle26: In certain cultures, the promise of eternal reward outweighs such mortal insult

geeairmoe2: I mentioned earlier, when I lived in Japan in the early 70's, how the Japaneese who remembered ...

geeairmoe2: ... the bomb wlaked on egshells around Americans.

AGplusone: I don't think you have time to educate the populace. they won't know what you're talking about

geeairmoe2: I was a ten-year old kid and they moved out of the way for me.

TAWN3: Well, we had the Sun od, MacArtjur, who played the role to the max geeairmoe.

TAWN3: Sun God.

AGplusone: All they know is what their Iman says.

geeairmoe2: 25 years after the bomb they were respectful to teenage American.

AGplusone: Wasn't just a bomb, Will?

TAWN3: It's a Third World country. Backwards. Unfortuneately.

geeairmoe2: Probaly different now, a generation later.

AGplusone: They were soundly beaten, theatre wide.

geeairmoe2: They had had they homeland violated. That made the real impression.

TAWN3: Japan? Yes, and the Emperor bowed down. THAT was humbling.

AGplusone: And it's a different situation ... the homeland violated, exactly.

AGplusone: Same thing with the Germans.

Musiquelle26: I started reading the Koran recently, as I said on the board

AGplusone: We sat there, for fifty-odd years, now.

TAWN3: Afghan is not Japan. Be careful of comparisons except in the most basic, macro sense.

geeairmoe2: If we violate the homeland of friends of terrorists, they'll remember that.

AGplusone: I agree, but not by simply bombing it.

geeairmoe2: I'm talking about what we do to their supporters.

TAWN3: Third world versus 1st world mentality. Big difference.

geeairmoe2: Get them on our side quickly.

AGplusone: I agree. Nuremburg.

Musiquelle26: And I am have had to put it aside, due to the recent events.

AGplusone: Take them out and shoot them.

geeairmoe2: How do you think Yemen will react to the sight of a mushroom cloud over Afghanistan.

Musiquelle26: No one wants to tolerate even an attempt to become educated about the beliefs

AGplusone: But the problem is going to be: what do we do about the Saudis who have been doing this.

geeairmoe2: Think they'll stop blocking the Cole investigation?

TAWN3: Well, how about with a Jihad Geeairmoe

AGplusone: Yemen would declare a holy war against us. What do they have to lose?

geeairmoe2: For the Saudis, just destroy all their oil wells.

AGplusone: You don't scare someone who has nothing with bombs.

TAWN3: Saudis are allies.

geeairmoe2: We've got more nukes than the terrorists have friendly countries.

AGplusone: Most are, Tawn, but what about the bin Ladens?

TAWN3: See, this is what I am afraid of, over reaction.

AGplusone: Nukes aren't going to do shit.

DenvToday: David, I agree.

Musiquelle26: Or worse, the ones suspected of talking out of both sides their mouths?

TAWN3: You don't destroy saudi oil wells because of a Saudi criminal.

DavidWrightSr: All it would do is create a million new terrorists!

AGplusone: except piss people off.

TAWN3: By the way, we are the ones who want the oil don't forget.

DenvToday: Besides--we need the oil. We'd be cutting our own throats.

DenvToday: lol hyep

DenvToday: yep

AGplusone: You don't use a nuke unless you have a Harry Truman choice, do I lose 250,000 men invading.

geeairmoe2: Convince me we won't lose 250,000 without nukes.

TAWN3: We have the moral highground. We need to keep it. Period.

DavidWrightSr: Tactical nukes against an opposing army? That might be needed.

DenvToday: We discover exactly where the terrorist camps are. We use the Israelis. We find out where the...

DavidWrightSr: But against a populated center just to give them the fear of God. No way.

AGplusone: How can I convince you? 100 hour war against Iraq enough for you?

DenvToday: terrorist leaders are hiding out. We can do this.

DenvToday: Then we go in and get them. We don't use large invasion forces. We use commandos.

AGplusone: The vaunted Republican Guard melted into the woodwork.

DenvToday: And we don't ask permission of the countries we enter. We just go in and get th em.

TAWN3: The Republican Guard was smart. they lived to fight another day.

TAWN3: And are still in power.

geeairmoe2: Take out the fund raisers, take out the country's that offer sancuary.

AGplusone: It didn't have to be that way. We didn't have to stop.

TAWN3: Agreed, in many ways David. Except,

geeairmoe2: Put in everyone's mind, now and forever: support terrorists, get nuked.

geeairmoe2: Give everyone the undeniable incentive to never harbor terrorists.

AGplusone: Love it, the nuke mentality.

TAWN3: I've always thouht showing our true honesty to the Russians was a big reason wwe stopped.

AGplusone: True terrorism.

geeairmoe2: Getting the terrorist alone is just half the problem.

AGplusone: To get one, we'll kill ten thousand.

geeairmoe2: Look at those dancing Palestinians who taught math by, if you kill three jews then four ...

AGplusone: Problem is: the nuke kills the ones appalled by the dancing.

geeairmoe2: More terrorists will be born, and our great grandchildren won't face this problem.

DenvToday: I must be going. Bye everybody. Thanks for the excellent discussion.

geeairmoe2: We left the Gulf War half done, we can't leave the eradication of terrorism half done.

AGplusone: But you don't do it with Nukes.

DenvToday has left the room.

geeairmoe2: That's what I'm talking about when "the will to see it through".

geeairmoe2: If you can suggest something that can leave a more indeliable impression, I'm with you.

AGplusone: Tell you what, Gee. You agree to ride the Nuke down, and I will think about it.

TAWN3: Bye Denv.

TAWN3: Agree Geeair. Can't be a half ass job.

TAWN3: Must be all out.

AGplusone: After all, it's just a little demonstration on an unimportant town or two.

TAWN3: YEE HAH! Slim pickens!

AGplusone: or John Ezra Dalquist

DavidWrightSr: If it would work, I might agree. But it *will not* work. It will just leave...

Musiquelle26: I find myself sensitive to the idea of nukes, I must admit

DavidWrightSr: millions of terrorists around to get us later.

TAWN3: NO NUKES ARE NEEDED. I can't believe I am hearing this.

DavidWrightSr: *create* millions of terrorists to get us.

AGplusone: exactly: my name is Jose Jimenez, you killed my father: prepare to die.

Musiquelle26: Of all that I have heard, the idea of surgical, commando type strikes fit my idea of just

AGplusone: surgical strikes are a joke

AGplusone: we were doomed by that thinking in Vietnam

TAWN3: Exactly Musiq. Surgical with supporting ground forces. NOT a stupid air war only.

DavidWrightSr: Like the one in Iran to get the hostages out

AGplusone: tea saloon idiots and newscasters

Musiquelle26: I apologize; I have little grounding in the concept of works well

TAWN3: I must sign off for a few moments

Musiquelle26: I just want to minimize how much like them we must go to get the job done

AGplusone: to do it you must land forces and take and hold the ground ...

AGplusone: You can't.

TAWN3: If I can't sign off before you all quit, good seeing you all!

geeairmoe2: Forgive me for caring so much for the future generations of my country thal I'll do anything....

AGplusone: See you, Tawn.

TAWN3 has left the room.

geeairmoe2: ... ANYTHING to protect them.

AGplusone: No. Doing anything is unforgiveable

Musiquelle26: Killing innocents on large scale, i.e nukes, is wrong

Musiquelle26: tit for tat, so to speak.

ddavitt has entered the room.

geeairmoe2: Innocents don't harbor terrorists.

AGplusone: We

AGplusone: don't

AGplusone: nuke

AGplusone: them

ddavitt: Y'all still here? Don't you have homes to go to?:-)

Musiquelle26: Hey lady...I'm stirring up the hornets nest, I fear

AGplusone: We may invade their land ... and if they don't get out of the way that's too bad

AGplusone: but

AGplusone: We

AGplusone: don't

geeairmoe2: Like I said, give me an option that will leave a more indeliable impression.

AGplusone: nuke

AGplusone: them

AGplusone: I'm not looking for impressions

Musiquelle26: Occupation will work, but for how long?

ddavitt: Ah..well, I just put the girls to bed and thought I'd see if there was anyone here

DavidWrightSr: You are overlooking the fact that a terrorist or small group of

ddavitt: As I missed most of the chat earlier.

Musiquelle26: Does the next generation bomb my daughter's place of work to retaliate for that?

DavidWrightSr: terrorists don't *have* to have a country's support.

DJedPar: Gppd Night Jane

Musiquelle26: We're talking a culture that has centuries of tit-for-tat retribution on all sides

AGplusone: They don't give a damn about the people with whom they take refuge

AGplusone: I don't want to impress anyone. I just want to kill the ones who espouse terrorism. If I have to go in

AGplusone: the next week and do it again, then so be it.

AGplusone: But I'm willing to give the ones who do not espouse terrorism the right to live afterwards.

AGplusone: I recognize that most of those people at best are along for the ride.

Musiquelle26: Then we, as a country, must maintain the vigilance, and not slump back into ....

AGplusone: At worst, they're oppressed by the same bastards.

Musiquelle26: "damn the miltary, we don't need them anymore" attitude

DJedPar has left the room.

Musiquelle26: There was a strong apathy about the military before the Gulf War, then it became a good thin

Musiquelle26: When I got in, most Gulf War vets were gettng out, and the country didn't care about us

AGplusone: always the same story, Stephanie

AGplusone: most of the country doesn't care about anything except filling its rice bowl

AGplusone: just like China

Musiquelle26: What I'm saying so poorly, is I don't see, even IF we did nuke, that we can get rid of this

Musiquelle26: Perhaps, I'm too defeatist

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

AGplusone: We can't doing it that way. We get rid of them the same way we get rid of the Nazi ... deNazification

AGplusone: that requires occupation

AGplusone: Dave: I think we're about done. Did you catch the part to edit out. The references to Tawn and Filly

AGplusone: in MI MOSes?

Musiquelle26: I see that part of the point. What I fear is that the violence is inherant to the religious

DavidWrightSr: Got it

AGplusone: Okay.

AGplusone: I think it is.

AGplusone: That doesn't get solved in a generation.

AGplusone: Like the Crusades

AGplusone: the thing to do is to remove the folk that espouse it

AGplusone: Make that the deterent

AGplusone: Hang them all.

Musiquelle26: Alright. My thick skull just let in the point you were making :-)

AGplusone: And then watch the next generation, and the one after that, and the one after that, ad infinitum

Musiquelle26: I'm an idiot, but at least I admit it

AGplusone: 'a woman's work is never done' You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

AGplusone: Love to them all, Filly

Musiquelle26: And to all of your families

ddavitt: Night everyone.

Musiquelle26 has left the room.

AGplusone: wb, Dave. I think we got it out of our systems. Jane, what next?

DavidWrightSr: Got dropped. I was just about to close it out. Anything I missed?

ddavitt: Topics?

AGplusone: nothing missed. Topics?

AGplusone: Report on Con?

AGplusone: and what else

ddavitt: Con; though it seems like a million years ago

ddavitt: After that we need to firm up some guests

ddavitt: Connie, Mr Kondo, Lois Bujold, Crais...

AGplusone: ah, ...

ddavitt: All possibles

AGplusone: Okay, why don't we just start a schedule

AGplusone: First one to say yes, we go with

ddavitt: Racism chat would be a good one; we touched on that on Thursday

TAWN3 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Bill and Andy were supposed to do that I think

AGplusone: wb, fighting through the ether, Tawn

ddavitt: We can nudge them.

TAWN3: Hi!

AGplusone: talking about schedule

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:04 P.M. EDT.


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