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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 8-16-2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Back to The Future (History)

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


Those people who read backwards may find themselves at a loss when their retrograde progress through the works of Robert Heinlein brings them to Requiem and The Man Who Sold The Moon. Where, they will ask themselves, are Maureen and Lazarus? Why do the mistress of George and the relief pilot of the Pioneer get no mention at all?

Confusing indeed....

We all know that To Sail Beyond The Sunset did more than upset those two stories..it takes a hefty swipe at TEFL as well, adding so many fresh perspectives and background detail that a reader could feel delighted....or betrayed....or just bewildered.

This chat I 'd like to look at Sail, not so much for the book itself ( though we may wander into that) but for the way it impacts on the FH. Can we spot any points where what goes on in Sail contradicts what went before? Can we catch Heinlein out in an error? Does the inclusion of Lazarus and his mother in practically everything that happens echo Caleb Catlum whose family includes every notable person in the history of the US? Stover drew the comparison between this book and LL before Sail was written; it can only reinforce his theory.

If this topic runs dry we could also consider the world of Maureen, especially in the later years. It is not our universe but did Heinlein use it to point out in glaring technicolour the problems he saw with '80's American society? What problems did he highlight? Are they still present, are they better or worse, 14 years later?

Jane

--

http://www.heinleinsociety.org


Ok, I have been reading Sail and TEFL side by side. Enlightening! Did you know that all the time Maureen was trying to trip Lazarus, Ira and Brian knew all about it and were helping her achieve her goal? Ira only after Brian had made it clear that he approved of course.

I admit to being puzzled by small differences in the dialogue though. Did Heinlein not want to bore readers by a straightforward cut and paste from TEFL? Or can we put it down to the fact that Sail is purely from Maureen's POV and her memories are different? I can't say it was author error because some of the conversation is word for word so Heinlein must have had a copy of TEFL to hand. I did start to make notes of all the differences but it was getting too long. Here is an example, seemingly trivial but capable of producing a little juice;

TEFL;

"After some uncountable eternity she whispered against his lips: "Theodore...take care of yourself. Come back to us."

Sail;

"My tongue met his and I promised him wordlessly that whatever I had was his. "Theodore..take care of yourself. Come back to me."

Me..us...one is more daring than the other for the time and it is fitting that the daring version is in the memoirs of that somewhat irregular lady. The biggest change of course is that in TEFL, we cut straight from Maureen and Lazarus sleeping together to a letter from him written in France. My, oh, my did we get shortchanged back in '73! In Sail we learn that he makes love with Nancy the next morning and ends up in bed with both his parents later on that day, discussing in full his journey from the future and arbitrating a row about whether or not he should sleep with Carol. Busy leave.....

It's also possible to catch Maureen out in a small lie; in TEFL when she slips into LL's room to seduce him she tells him that it's safe, "Father may suspect me...but that makes it _certain_ that he won't check on me."

In Sail we find out that she has told both Nancy and Ira of her plans, that Nancy is all set to take her place as she is pregnant too and therefore safe and that Ira stops her and tells Maureen to go to Lazarus instead. May suspect? He helped organize it!

The funniest thing is that Lazarus lies to his family ( by omission) in his letters home. [ Author's note here ; I know that it wasn't a lie exactly because Heinlein didn't know he was going to write Sail but humor me, OK?] He gracefully glosses over the orgies and frank talks about futuristic medicine with Brian and Ira with the sedate sentence,

"I had long talks with Gramp, got better acquainted with all the others - especially Mama and Pop."

Understatement of the twentieth century there.

However, this is all personal stuff; Lazarus impregnated no one, changed nothing vital. It is not until he gives away details about the future in Sail that he starts to impinge upon the FH itself.

At a special meeting of the Howard trustees, he tells them snippets of what must have seemed gobbledygook ( " talking pictures. Television. Stereovision. Space travel. Atomic power. Lasers. Computers. Electronics of every sort. Mining on the Moon. Asteroid mining. Rolling roadways. Cryonics. Artificial manipulation of genetics. Personal body armor. Sunpower screens. Frozen foods. Hydroponics. Microwave cooking. Do any of you know D.D Harriman?") which they treat with scepticism for the most part. More fools they and all that. Maureen is listening though...

The chapter ends with the news that he is MIA and so ends that part of Sail which affects TEFL.

This is getting long. I will stop here and come back with the next bit about how the Past through Tomorrow stories are affected...unless someone else wants to take over and or join in.

Jane

--

http://www.heinleinsociety.org


I have read a bit further on. One thing that puzzles me; Maureen can't stop the destruction of the satellite and Charon. It is as if that is set in stone. Also, LL obviously has no qualms about sharing knowledge of the future with quite a few people. Yet Maureen does change some things; she convinces George to make Harriman Industries invest where they would not have and in so doing she indirectly facilitates the success of the rocket to the moon.

The problem here which takes a bit of the fun away, is that Heinlein could only do so much in Sail. It would not have been possible for Maureen to save the Charon; he had already written that they died. It is possible for her to be a behind the scenes and beneath the sheets advisor because it's never written that she wasn't.

Makes my head ache...

Jane

-- http://www.heinleinsociety.org


On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:56:24 GMT, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com> keyed:

>I have read a bit further on. One thing that puzzles me; Maureen can't stop the
>destruction of the satellite and Charon. It is as if that is set in stone. Also,
>LL obviously has no qualms about sharing knowledge of the future with quite a
>few people. Yet Maureen does change some things; she convinces George to make
>Harriman Industries invest where they would not have and in so doing she
>indirectly  facilitates the success of the rocket to the moon.
>The problem here which takes a bit of the fun away, is that Heinlein could only
>do so much in Sail. It would not have been possible for Maureen to save the
>Charon; he had already written that they died. It is possible for her to be a
>behind the scenes and beneath the sheets advisor because it's never written that
>she wasn't.
>Makes my head ache...
>
>Jane
Maureen didn't change anything. She had already convinced George to do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon. From LL's perspective.

There's no such thing as a paradox..........

--

 lazarus

I shave with Ockham's Razor every morning.

"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
 fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
 the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
                                                   Stephen F. Roberts

"lazarus" <lazarus33pjf@msn.com> wrote in message news:1g99ntko4j01cnucko6lhukpr6udghmssr@4ax.com...
>On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:56:24 GMT, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com>
>keyed:
>
(Jane's message snipped)

>
>Maureen didn't change anything.  She had already convinced George to
>do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon.  From LL's
>perspective.
>
>There's no such thing as a paradox..........
Until 'The Cat Who Walked Through Walls', Heinlein almost always, a notable exception being 'Farnham's Freehold', presented time-travel as being of the 'non-paradox', immutable variety as far as I can tell. (See http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TimeTravelTheories.htm)

In 'Cat', OTOH, he definitely switched and went for the changeable variety with the 'Circle of Ouroboros' having as its main function changing the past. One of the things they changed was Colin's past where he had experienced cannabalism to a quite different outcome. 'The Number of the Beast' possibly showed both varieties when you consider the events surrounding Maureen's rescue versus the fact that the world of Zeb,Deety, Hilda and Jake was 'erased', that is to say, its present, and therefore its past, had been changed. This switch seems to me to be a plausible corollary with the notion of 'World As Myth' which was not present in his earlier works.

David Wright


lazarus wrote:
>
>Maureen didn't change anything.  She had already convinced George to
>do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon.  From LL's
>perspective.
>
>There's no such thing as a paradox..........
>
>
> --
>
>  lazarus
>
>
Well, yes. He seems to feel that if he does something, he did it, so there's no harm in doing it. I'm not sure about this. It's that loop thingummy, described in NOTB when they discuss the rescue of Libby.

Until Lazarus opened his mouth and told people about the future, he HADN"T told them. On his own personal timeline, it hadn't happened yet so he could have kept quiet.He still had a choice. After all, he didn't know he'd done it before he did it. Did he?

<g> I feel a headache coming on still...

Jane

--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Jane Davitt wrote:
> 
>lazarus wrote:
> 
>>
>> Maureen didn't change anything.  She had already convinced George to
>> do those things, she had already failed to save the Charon.  From LL's
>> perspective.
>>
>> There's no such thing as a paradox..........
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>  lazarus
>>
>>
> 
>Well, yes. He seems to feel that if he does something, he did it, so there's no harm
>in doing it. I'm not sure about this. It's that loop thingummy, described in NOTB
>when they discuss the rescue of Libby.
>Until Lazarus opened his mouth and told people about the future, he HADN"T told them.
>On his own personal timeline, it hadn't happened yet so he could have kept quiet.He
>still had a choice. After all, he didn't know he'd done it before he did it. Did he?
><g>
>I feel a headache coming on still...
> 
>Jane
> 
Shouldn't be drinking from your own still.

Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing observed. And before you have still another headache, I'll mention that it was largely Mr. Heinlein's handling of "time travel" (which he does at least three different ways) that led me to observe this.

-- 
  >^,,^<
What bite through yonder thin dough bakes?
 It is the yeast, and julienne is the bun...
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

"Dennis M. Hammes" wrote:
>  Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing
>observed.
>
Fortified by Aspro Clear, I'll ask that this be explained a little further as it applies to this particular instance.

To me, Lazarus is an intruder, an illegal alien. He is there legitimately only as Woodie. The fact that he doesn't remember Bronson as an adult before the trip means that it's possible history was different before he went back. Or it could be a child's faulty memory...but this is the child who can play chess at 4 and will grow up to be The Senior. I'd think he'd have pretty clear memories of Bronson myself....except that there was no Bronson at that point. The past to which LL returned was not the one in which he grew up. So, somewhere D.D got his ship off the ground without any financial backing from Maureen. 'The Past through Tomorrow".....interesting choice of title isn't it? Maybe the FH can only exist in the past because of the intervention from the future..but it's a different past.

Jane

--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org

On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:35:43 GMT, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com> keyed:
>"Dennis M. Hammes" wrote:
>
>>  Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing
>>observed.
>>
>
>Fortified  by Aspro Clear, I'll ask that this be explained a little further as it applies
>to this particular instance.
>To me, Lazarus is an intruder, an illegal alien. He is there legitimately only as Woodie.
>The fact that he doesn't remember Bronson as an adult before the trip means that it's
>possible history was different before he went back. Or it could be a child's faulty
>memory...but this is the child who can play chess at 4 and will grow up to be The Senior.
>I'd think he'd have pretty clear memories of Bronson myself....except that there was no
>Bronson at that point. The past to which LL returned was not the one in which he grew up.
>So, somewhere D.D got his ship off the ground without any financial backing from Maureen.
>'The Past through Tomorrow".....interesting choice of title isn't it? Maybe the FH can only
>exist in the past because of the intervention from the future..but it's a different past.
>
>Jane
No, you're viewing time wrong. The fact that he doesn't remember Mr. Bronson is because he was 4 years old. I certainly don't remember any of my parent's adult friends from that age. It had all happened already, from his viewpoint in the future, but he hadn't done it, from his personal viewpoint.

Dammit, now I've got that headache.

--

 lazarus

I shave with Ockham's Razor every morning.

"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
 fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
 the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
                                                    Stephen F. Roberts

Jane Davitt wrote:
> 
>"Dennis M. Hammes" wrote:
> 
>>   Time and choice are both attributes of the observer, not the thing
>> observed.
>>
> 
>Fortified  by Aspro Clear, I'll ask that this be explained a little further as it applies
>to this particular instance.
>To me, Lazarus is an intruder, an illegal alien. He is there legitimately only as Woodie.
>The fact that he doesn't remember Bronson as an adult before the trip means that it's
>possible history was different before he went back. Or it could be a child's faulty
>memory...but this is the child who can play chess at 4 and will grow up to be The Senior.
>I'd think he'd have pretty clear memories of Bronson myself....except that there was no
>Bronson at that point. The past to which LL returned was not the one in which he grew up.
>So, somewhere D.D got his ship off the ground without any financial backing from Maureen.
>'The Past through Tomorrow".....interesting choice of title isn't it? Maybe the FH can only
>exist in the past because of the intervention from the future..but it's a different past.
> 
>Jane
>
>--
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Hm. /Given the book/, you are as omnipotent as the author. Woodie at five is not, and neither is Lazarus in trying to remember what a five-year-old simply did not pay attention to (permanent memory takes three stages, and each requires effortful attention even if the effort is partly or wholly reflexive).

What equations there are require that CPL Bronson "was there" all along, which says little about anyone's percepts of him and /nothing/ necessarily about anyone's remembering or otherwise recording him. /I/ played chess at four (beat my brother at five), and while I remember in "full" detail the ceiling over my crib at one, a floor sander at two, 16mm cartoons and Fr.B.'s cigars at three, analysing Stevenson (and Eulalie's illustrations) at four, and my brother's cat in a wall tent at five, the incidents indicate their own source of the required attention -- and are good for about six minutes out of five years. I do /not/ remember any of Dad's friends, even though it was their tent and they were up routinely. Hell, I barely remember Grandpa beyond a roofing job (at three, but I was on the other end of the roof and really remember only my goof in the nail line) and a story I can't remember, despite that he lived with us for six years. Lazarus' not remembering CPL Bronson 2000 years later isn't even worth mention.

Lazarus made rather a point, himself and severally, that he was an illegal alien. Given time travel, it would go with the turf, and most time-travel stories make a point of it.

But time exists only as the distance between incident markers on memory RNA (hence, I renamed the Goddess of Memory "MyRNA"). That strand (actually a very-porous hologram) can be (is) travelled routinely, and if one wants to be really stupid he can even rewrite it at will, even rewriting only part of the hologram so that he has, simultaneously, two (or more) pasts.

BTW, we need clocks precisely because there's nothing necessarily uniform about the granularity, even the production, of MyRNA, either along one's own strand or with respect to anyone else's. And clocks don't "measure time," they /move/ at a uniform (and reproducible) rate past equally-spaced marks, producing uniform /incidents/ with which one can calibrate MyRNA. Those incidents are external; time isn't. Trouble with the language (and the observation) of "time" is that /everybody/ sees "time" when he looks "out there" (or for that matter "in here," which should have been a clue), so the temptation to /agree/ that it's as "out there" as "blue" appears to be "out there" occupies the universe of the sample.

If time were an external, such that it could be traversed as in time-travel stories, it would be a continuum and infinitesimally divisible, and the necessary replication of event substance would render the universe infinitely dense. Indeed, the only reason our /perception/ of it is not infinitely dense is that the ordinate is granular.

Anyway, when someone sits to tell you how he was (or almost was) his own grandpaw, be prepared to hear a /story/, which itself has only internal (to the observer) existence. And as exercises in logical torture, they are, indeed, great exercises.

-- 
  >^,,^<
What bite through yonder thin dough bakes?
 It is the yeast, and julienne is the bun...
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

Saturday, August 18th we'll continue chatting about "Back To the Future (History)" or maybe, forgive me, "Herstory."

I got to thinking about the title: To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

Aside from an obvious theme of resurrection of Maureen, the photo of Venus borne on the cover, why?

Long quotation coming up here ...

ULYSSES, Alfred Lord Tennyson

"It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match’d with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.

"I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoy’d
Greatly, have suffer’d greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro’ scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honour’d of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.

"I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro’
Gleams that untravell’d world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
As tho’ to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

  "This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle–
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro’ soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

  "There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
There gloom the dark broad seas. My mariners,
Souls that have toil’d, and wrought, and thought with me–
That ever with a frolic welcome took
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
Free hearts, free foreheads–you and I are old;
Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
’Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "

Uh-huh ... nice sentiment. Who's speaking? The old red-haired fox himself.

Why is Maureen the first person narrator? Forgive me, but isn't she "the old red-haired fox" herself?

I think I'd like to plan around with this silly notion for perhaps the first hour Saturday. Why, exactly, did Heinlein pick such a title out of such a poem about such a magnificent character? Are there many marked similarities between the two? If so, why?

a little fun, perhaps, about where RAH may have been headed in the "World As Myth" had it continued ...

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: That's a terrible translation I faked, David.

DavidWrightSr: No!. it looked good to me

AGplusone: glossed over too much I didn't know for sure ...

AGplusone: but it was fun to try!

DavidWrightSr: Well. I really started to get interested. I've been searching for OE & ME sites all afternoon.

AGplusone: One of the better read passages in the Chronicles ... I used to have an Everyman's edition of the

AGplusone: Chronicle that has most of the major versions translated. Bought it because I was looking for a

AGplusone: version of the Chronicle that a professor told me about ....

AGplusone: same year, it ends with ... "and now Our King Harold is turning to the South where we hear that

AGplusone: William the Bastard of Normany is assembling a mighty host and plans to invade. ...

AGplusone: All things pass, so to will this ... " which is how that version ended every year.

AGplusone: There was no entry to the year 1067. That version just ends there. Splat.

AGplusone: so too will this ...

DavidWrightSr: I kind of got carried away with the whole thread, but I had forgotten how much I enjoyed..

AGplusone: The Everyman's edition didn't have that version!!! "Wasted" the money.

AGplusone: I enjoyed it a lot. Always did enjoy reading middle english and anglo-saxon.

DavidWrightSr: working with that stuff. I had a Master's in Linguistics, but went straight into computers and never

DavidWrightSr: used it.

AGplusone: Went straight into law. Never used it except for enjoyment either.

AGplusone: You had dinner yet?

DavidWrightSr: Yes. we went out and got back in about an hour ago. Go ahead and take a break if you haven' eaten

DavidWrightSr: yet

AGplusone: I will ... thanks .... set up my little tea pot et co.

DavidWrightSr: I'll be here.

AGplusone: I usually eat afterwards since my wife doesn't get home until around 6 or 7 here.

AGplusone: But I sometimes need the tea to keep from getting grumpy. Enjoying Crais' book I got Monday. More

AGplusone: on him later.

DavidWrightSr: I was surprised when I read that site on early space tv shows how much more depth there was...

DavidWrightSr: to them than I remembered. But then I was only 10-11 at the time and not very observant.

DavidWrightSr: What am I saying, I'm 61 and still not very observant.

AGplusone: Great site, isn't it? I saw it once before. I could hardly distinguish between the three ...

AGplusone: when I was six or whatever it was when they were on.

DavidWrightSr: The reason I said that Captain Video was so bad was those dumb cowboy movies they

AGplusone: We used to conflate the programs. My sister and I called the lead character "Buzz Corkbutt" later on .

DavidWrightSr: had to put in there. Didn' realize until today that that was the main reason for the

DavidWrightSr: show in the first place.

AGplusone: Our memories of them were pretty vague by the time we started using terms like " -butt"

DavidWrightSr: As I said, I actually dropped most of them after I starting reading books. I only occasionally read

AGplusone: So I don't thing we saw a great number of them. Didn't have a regular TV until about 53

DavidWrightSr: sorry, watched one for years afterwards and then only for fun.

AGplusone: We had TV hours rationed to about one each night.

AGplusone: Early on ... go read, David. TV

AGplusone: 'is over.

DavidWrightSr: We were the first in the neighborhood to get a tv and I was *real* popular for about 6 months.

AGplusone: I remember the family name, Evans, who got the first in our neighborhood.

AGplusone: All the kids used to show up the hour before dinner to watch it with the Evans boys.

AGplusone: About '50 or '51

DavidWrightSr: It was a 5 inch motorola. Dad watched it once and took it back and got a *big* 9 inch Philco

AGplusone: Yeah!

AGplusone: Aunt Bess and Uncle Earl had a "big" 8 inch too. With a plastic green screen over it to "save the eyes

AGplusone: "

DavidWrightSr: The first show I ever watched was a Laurel and Hardy movie. "Out West" or something

DavidWrightSr: like that

AGplusone: My "rich" Aunt Tillie and her husband had a 5 inch about '48. First program I ever saw was photos of

AGplusone: a P-80 Shooting Star flying back and forth. That was it. Went on for an hour or more.

DavidWrightSr: Well, that is better than sitting there watching that Indian on the test pattern :-)

AGplusone: Yep, altho I liked the Indian!

DavidWrightSr: One thing I clearly remember was a show in 48 or 49 called the Merry Mutes.

DavidWrightSr: Starred a fellow named Dick Van Dyke

AGplusone: The 5 inch was in the middle of a huge wood floor cabinet, little tiny screen in the middle

DavidWrightSr: and another guy named Phil Erickson. Well Dick went on. Phil stayed in Atlanta

AGplusone: of this huge piece of furniture, with bigger knobs than the screen, nearly.

DavidWrightSr: and had a theatre club called 'Wit's End'. Great place for a date

AGplusone: Bet it was!

AGplusone: Do you remember a "Captain Jet"?

DavidWrightSr: They had a series of productions all name 'Cleopatra or ....'. The one I rembmer

DavidWrightSr: was 'Cleopatra or Nobody likes a smart asp'

DavidWrightSr: Don't recall Captain Jet. wasn't there something on the website about it?

AGplusone: Hollywood TV show version takeoff of Captain Video ... They wore space helmets that had a square

AGplusone: bubble opening in the front.

AGplusone: Didn't notice.

AGplusone: Wore accordian pleats at their joints on their uniform.

DavidWrightSr: Great picture of Captain Video and Ranger with their football helmets and telephone

DavidWrightSr: operators phone set.

AGplusone: Went to his show, filming one time. A real jerk in person. During commercials he'd come

AGplusone: out and shoot his ray gun, which spun little wheels at the crowd. If you caught one,

AGplusone: you'd get a prize.

AGplusone: Musta been about eight then.

DavidWrightSr: Our local show was a rip off of Howdy Doody called Woody Willow.

AGplusone: His real reason was to show cartoons.

AGplusone: Yes, rip off ....

AGplusone: and run commercials for the "vegematic" or whatever they peddled.

AGplusone: I remember "the Glass Knife" was their main seller.

DavidWrightSr: It's funny. the guy who played 'Officer Don' on that show wound up as vice-president

DavidWrightSr: of WSB-TV. I saw him not too long ago doing a historic documentary.

DavidWrightSr: Ah Glass Knives. I recall a bunch of them at our state fair. used to sit and

DavidWrightSr: watch them cut up things.

AGplusone: We got the real Howdy Doody ... do you remember Smilin' Ed and Froggy the Gremlin?

AGplusone: and Willow the Cat?

AGplusone: " .... Niiiiiiice!"

DavidWrightSr: We had Howdy too. Definitely remember Smiling Ed. Wasn't he the guy that played

DavidWrightSr: Gene Autry's sidekick in a couple of movies?

AGplusone: Autry had so many sidekicks I found it hard to keep track of 'em ;-)

DavidWrightSr: No I think that's wrong somehow

DavidWrightSr: Don't recall Willow the Cat.

AGplusone: My mom, those years, used to put Autry into cabs on the Strip when he'd had too much

AGplusone: but she liked him. Thought he was a gentleman.

DavidWrightSr: How about that.

AGplusone: She worked a hotel cocktail lounge he liked.

DavidWrightSr: Well, he sure managed to parlay his movie days into a pretty big fortune.

AGplusone: He sure did!

AGplusone: He never got nasty when he drank. Just drunk.

DavidWrightSr: We got a record of him singing 'Rudolph' and my boys asked 'What's a Gene Autry'?

AGplusone: Poor kids.

AGplusone: We had a movie house on Hollywood Boulevard called "The Hitching Post," that showed nuthin'

AGplusone: but cowboy movies, and cowboy serials, and cartoons ... stop me if you've heard this before ...

DavidWrightSr: GA

AGplusone: and they'd get real cowboy stars to come by during the Saturday matinees with their horses

AGplusone: and during intermission, autograph, or sing songs, or do rope tricks, or in Autry's case

AGplusone: have Champion rear and do tricks.

AGplusone: Beautiful horse!!!!

DavidWrightSr: He was pretty good with a rope too wasn't he?

AGplusone: Everyone dressed up in their cowboy or cowgirl outfits and they'd require that we check our

AGplusone: cap pistols at the candy counter before they'd let us in the theatre. Yes, he was pretty good.

AGplusone: And ushers would be chasing kids who smuggled their hide-out guns into the show all through the first

AGplusone: cartoon ....

DavidWrightSr: The closest I ever came was seeing Hopalong Cassidy at a local Ice Cream

AGplusone: Moms used to drop us off about 10 AM and come back to get us, exhausted and ready for a nap, around 5

DavidWrightSr: Drive-in. Must have been 4-5 hundred people there.

AGplusone: four cartoons, three serials, and three features and an intermission watching the cowboy star, later.

DavidWrightSr: Our saturday morning theater never had any stars. what they did have was a

DavidWrightSr: 12 cent admission fee. My sister and Brother gave me a coin collectors book

DavidWrightSr: with a whole set of dimes and pennies for my birthday to use for the theater

DavidWrightSr: Must have been a year's worth

AGplusone: Wow! All those movies. [Stars were easy in Hollywood! Just dial a studio and hire a horse trailer!]

AGplusone: You musta been in Heaven.

DavidWrightSr: I guess being in LA had some perks.

AGplusone: It did.

AGplusone: Before smog.

DavidWrightSr: I was there around 75 or 76 and one day the smog was so bad that we

DavidWrightSr: couldn't see the hills on the other side of the roadway from where we were

DavidWrightSr: staying

AGplusone: Reason I wound up reading Heinlein that summer is the radios said: Moms, don't let your kids run ...

AGplusone: send them to the libraries."

AGplusone: 1954

DavidWrightSr: Neat. I got my first taste in the 8th grade, fall of 53

AGplusone: Just between 6th and 7th grade for me.

AGplusone: Summer!

DavidWrightSr: Although I had been an SF fan for years starting with radio and then early tv

DavidWrightSr: but hadn't encountered RAH until then

AGplusone: Never was ... altho I remembered "Rocket Ship X-M" and "Destination Moon"

AGplusone: Didn't matter to me that RAH wrote it. Just that Woody Woodpecker was in it. That was fun!

DavidWrightSr: Right. I wasn't aware until a number of years later that he had been involved in it

AGplusone: And I understood what Woody explained. That was neat!

DavidWrightSr: And I certainly recognized it as being a definite cut above all of the others.

AGplusone: Mom and dad bought me a bunch of books about rockets, and Goddard after that movie.

AGplusone: And astronomy ....

AGplusone: I was about eight when DM came out.

AGplusone: maybe seven

DavidWrightSr: I'm not sure that I saw it when it first came out. I may have had to wait until

DavidWrightSr: it got to the local neighborhood theater. Don't recall now

AGplusone: Saw it at a drive-in ... there used to be ones that got the first runs when they came out.

ddavitt has entered the room.

AGplusone: Probably charged twice as much as the other drive-ins .....

ddavitt: Hi there

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane. David and I are reminiscing about the early days.

AGplusone: pretty sure I saw it first run, because I remember in third grade already knowing the order of

AGplusone: planets before they started teaching us them, from the books M & D got me after DM.

ddavitt: Tom Corbett and stuff?

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Hi, J

ddavitt: I have never read any..or the Tom Swift

ddavitt: Were they similar?

AGplusone: I read all the original swifties ... the old school libraries I attended had them.

DavidWrightSr: Did you see the URL I posted. Go there and you can find out all about them :-)

ddavitt: Will do

AGplusone: Catholic school libraries never throw anything out.

ddavitt: I liked Hugh Walters

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

ddavitt: Similar series

ddavitt: Bright youngsters in space

DavidWrightSr: Sorry my other machine just bombed on me. Be right back

AGplusone: okay

ddavitt: Visit each planet in turn...

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

AGplusone: How old were you when you read the Walters' novels, Jane?

ddavitt: 12 ish

DavidWrightSr: Dog gone. Just bombed right in the middle of a conversation.

ddavitt: I have one still

ddavitt: Journey to Jupiter I think

AGplusone: Sarah Hoyt is fun to read, isn't she?

ddavitt: Quite collectable I beleive

ddavitt: Yes, is she new?

AGplusone: Yes.

ddavitt: Or an old poster I don't know?

ddavitt: Nice to see fresh POV's

AGplusone: She joined the HS this month. Came out of the blue. Just found us.

ddavitt: Really? Great!

AGplusone: I told her about afh and sff.net

ddavitt: Did Lord Clane join?

AGplusone: She's coming to the dinner in Philly. Has a book of her own out.

AGplusone: Shakespeare in a fantasy novel.

DavidWrightSr: I wish I could be with you guys.

AGplusone: www.sarahahoyt.com

ddavitt: Joel davis is his real name

AGplusone: Be nice to see him, too.

ddavitt: The one who has just posted about Gifford's ST theory

ddavitt: He said he was going to join up

AGplusone: Yes, he did now that you mention his real name. About a week ago.

DavidWrightSr: Is he a physics teacher, by any chance?

ddavitt: I'll check out her book David

AGplusone: He works for an aerospace company

ddavitt: Works for Ball Aerospace

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: David knows the company

AGplusone: it's pretty well known

ddavitt: His firm has had dealings with them

DavidWrightSr: That might be him. I knew a Joel Davis who was a Heinlein fan and who taught physics at the

DavidWrightSr: local college when I first moved here. He moved on elsewhere after that

ddavitt: Could be

AGplusone: His office is in Texas

ddavitt: Seems like a nice chap

DavidWrightSr: I'll have to query him about that. Interesting

AGplusone: does

OscagneTX has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Oscagne. How goes it?

ddavitt: Hi!

OscagneTX: howdy

DavidWrightSr: Greetings Os

DJedPar has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Denis

AGplusone: Hi, Denis

ddavitt: That's better; wondered where evryone was

ddavitt: Hi Denis

DJedPar: Hi all

DavidWrightSr: I was beginning to wonder too. Had an e-mail from Ginny earlier, but didn't ask her about tonight

OscagneTX: Have we formally started yet? I just woke up and saw the announcement on afh.

DavidWrightSr: She's usually on quite early when she is here.

AGplusone: How's she, Dave .... she may be tired today.

ddavitt: Hope you've all read the required material for tonight:-)

AGplusone: Been a rough week.

ddavitt: Yes...

ddavitt: Lots of aggravations

DavidWrightSr: She said she was ok. She was asking me about my problems and how I was doing?

ddavitt: Are you any better?

DavidWrightSr: A lot better, although there are going to be some after effects for quite a while I'm told

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: When did Bill come in?

ddavitt: Oh, there you are

BPRAL22169: Just now. AIM is being wonky today.

ddavitt: Ah...

BPRAL22169: Woods.

DavidWrightSr: Hey that was neat. Bill left before he entered. Neat trick.

ddavitt: Just talking about this and that

ddavitt: Before launching into the chat

ddavitt: Hey; i rhyme

AGplusone: when that happens it usually means they're having trouble. Why Bill Reich doesn't show anymore.

BPRAL22169: I talked with Ginny earlier; she said she was fatigued and might go to bed early.

AGplusone: Something in his software is wonky.

OscagneTX: Just finished re-reading Stranger again today. My head is still sore from the exercise.

ddavitt: OK, we'll miss her.

BPRAL22169: I've noticed there is considerable difference between the different versions.

BPRAL22169: Did you re-read stranger before or after Martian?

OscagneTX: Haven't read Martian.

BPRAL22169: OK, then I won't ask you what you thought about it.

ddavitt: Good move.

BPRAL22169: I thought so.

AGplusone: If I get a percent I'll tell him Martian is well worth it, Bill

ddavitt: But you've all read Sail, yes?

OscagneTX: yup

AGplusone: If I don't get a percent, I'll tell him it's excellent! Take you pick.

BPRAL22169: How about .000000000000001 percent?

AGplusone: your

ddavitt: It's a good book and you should get it. Right after this chat.

AGplusone: We'll negotiate ....

BPRAL22169: That way, if I sell a milliion copies, I will pay you one penny.

ddavitt: Is it available at Philcon, Bill?

BPRAL22169: Happily, I might add.

AGplusone: Yes, even English majors can do that math.

OscagneTX: I read all the Lazarus/Maureen books in reverse order. By accident.

ddavitt: Then you are the one my post on afh was aimed at..

OscagneTX: As I went further back questions kept getting answered.

ddavitt: Did you wonder where she was in Man Who Sold?

OscagneTX: It was like... paleontology or something.

BPRAL22169: I'm Sure Jim Gifford will have some copies at MilPhil.

ddavitt: Interesting analogy.

ddavitt: I'm sure he better

ddavitt: Piltdown man though, rather than real fossils

BPRAL22169: To Sail was like paleontology -- or perhaps archaeology for the rest of us.

ddavitt: Was Heinlein cheating a bit?

ddavitt: Using Sail to add in bits, change things?

AGplusone: I thought is was different and more mature veiwpoint, revisited ....

ddavitt: Or just having fun?

OscagneTX: Hmm. I don't think I'd call it cheating.

OscagneTX: I'd call it fleshing out.

ddavitt: Did it serve a purpose?

BPRAL22169: Given the World As Myth theory, I think he can justify any minor deviations from the first telling.

AGplusone: and the ladies' unexpurgated view. Lady Chatterly meets Time Enuff ... Woody was always a very

ddavitt: It was quite an eyeopener reading sail and TEFL side by side and matching the dates

AGplusone: inhibited boy.

ddavitt: Oh yes, very true

ddavitt: But to find that Brian and LL were in bed together with her..all glossed over in TEFL

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi, just talking about sail and TEFl

DenvToday: Greetings all

AGplusone: You don't think Woody ever told Ira the whole truth, the complete truth, and nuthin' but the truth?

BPRAL22169: Puts a slightly different spin on the incest motive.

ddavitt: So much extra detail

ddavitt: But LL lied to the people in the future too

ddavitt: Well, he did if yuo view it as a whole

BPRAL22169: "Truth" was a commodity to LL.

AGplusone: Too much fun to lie to your own biographer!!!

ddavitt: Of course, at the time of writing he didn't..

ddavitt: that is what is so confusing

OscagneTX: Again, more fleshing out. Change of perspective. I'll bet Ginny had lots of influence on Sail.

ddavitt: Heinlein went back and changed things; Black Hat to the end

BPRAL22169: Or scene changer?

DJedPar: I don't think so.

DenvToday: Could anybody know what was truth or what was imagined after two millenia's worth of memories?

AGplusone: Why not, Denis?

BPRAL22169: I'd like to take a look at To Sail in contrast to Friday.

ddavitt: Brian and Ira encouraged maureen to sleep with him, it wasn't behind their backs

DJedPar: Because, She didn't usually interfere with his writing.

ddavitt: majotr changes in perspective and character motivations

BPRAL22169: I think Denis meant Ginny might not have had special input into to Sail.

OscagneTX: Um... I don't think we can use Lazarus's dishonesty to excuse changes in the 1916-ish bits.

AGplusone: That's how I read Denis, too.

DJedPar: Right, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Didn't mean to step on yours.

OscagneTX: Because those parts were presented as direct narration, not story-telling to Ira or Minny.

BPRAL22169: A reconstructed record, I thought, of the recorder in his gut.

ddavitt: The letters?

ddavitt: In those he glosses over things

AGplusone: I thought that was more a transponder ....

OscagneTX: besides, it was shot out.

ddavitt: He says it will record belly rumbles

AGplusone: I'd think he'd edit his dictation anyway.

AGplusone: If he couldn't he wouldn't let them put it in him.

ddavitt: It gets chewed up by the bullet doesn't it?

ddavitt: He didn't know it was there

BPRAL22169: That wouldn't necessarily damage 25th century tech. Well, the first part of the book

AGplusone: The transponder part ... but he suspected it: remember when the doctor gives him

OscagneTX: I thought it was _direct_ narration. Like the Dora story. A "flashback".

AGplusone: his physical, and says: must be fecal matter.

BPRAL22169: is presented as an artful reconstruction of the Eldest's mumblings while in rehab.

ddavitt: They call it a finder

ddavitt: They locate his 'death' by seeing where it stops working

ddavitt: He suspects it is a recorder but may just be a locator

BPRAL22169: So they retrieve it seconds before it stops and replace it with a dummy to be shot out.

AGplusone: Eeeew

BPRAL22169: These people have recorded every slobber and drool of his for years by that time.

OscagneTX: wouldn't buddy boy remember them doing that?

AGplusone: Wouldn't buddy boy find out eventually and skin them for doing it?

BPRAL22169: Not necessarily to both.

AGplusone: with a finger nail file

ddavitt: Good motives..

AGplusone: or a dull stone

BPRAL22169: You've got to rememebre -- the twins are LL.

ddavitt: Who else read sail first?

OscagneTX: me

ddavitt: I know you did....

DJedPar: No. I read it last.

AGplusone: That's okay. "I brought you into this world. I can take you out" -- Bill Cosby

ddavitt: I didn't as by themn i was reading in publication order

AGplusone: I read 'em in order because I'm old.

OscagneTX: Anyway... if something is omitted in Time, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

ddavitt: Ditto from about Friday

DJedPar: Me too!

OscagneTX: Even in straight auto-biography lots of significant things get left out.

ddavitt: Point is that it wasn't ommitted exactly

ddavitt: H from a distance added stuff to suit his own ideas

BPRAL22169: The point of the incest scene with the twins -- they are all the same person.

ddavitt: So, why?

BPRAL22169: Anybody get twinges of hermeticism out of this?

ddavitt: Why did he want to make maureen the pivotal person in FH rather than harriman?

AGplusone: Isn't incest. It's mastrubation ...

ddavitt: Tail munching snakes?

DavidWrightSr: Harriman's story had already been told.

ddavitt: So had hers

AGplusone: I think Maureen gives you a more cynical, rounded, less public relations view.

ddavitt: In TEFL and in NOTB

BPRAL22169: Putting the eternal feminine back into history?

DavidWrightSr: Do you mean in TEFL?. That was really LL's not hers.

AGplusone: The historical revisionist, satire thereof ....

ddavitt: Definitely; irregular lady indeed

OscagneTX: um... probably because he wanted to write another book, and this was a good gimick.

ddavitt: Get some of her thought sin TEFL here and there

BPRAL22169: It's true -- it's a wild technical tour de force.

DavidWrightSr: what kind of sin is thought sin :-)

AGplusone: ... wouldn't it be a kick if RAH was parodying Panshin in To Sail ...?

DJedPar: Never happen.

ddavitt: You said the P word; dime in the box

BPRAL22169: doubleplus ungood thoughtcrime!

AGplusone: Okay, sorry!

ddavitt: Forgiven.

AGplusone: <----inserting dime.

DenvToday: I recently heard from Dr. Donald Cargraves. He's suing D. D. Harriman for slander.

BPRAL22169: Are we going to buy a virtual war bond one of these days?

OscagneTX: Every one of those books rescued SOMEONE in the end. Since he decided to rescue Gramps next,

ddavitt: Heh

OscagneTX: she was a natural central character.

AGplusone: Now, Gramps would *really* be a cynical revisionist!

ddavitt: Do people mind that she suddenly pops up as George's mistress?

OscagneTX: nope.

ddavitt: And that really she saves the families from bankrupcy

OscagneTX: I bet she was LOTS of people's mistress.

DenvToday: Oddly enough, Tennyson's Ulysses has been my favorite dramatic poem for years. I know most of it by..

DenvToday: ...heart.

ddavitt: Sure..but that's not how I remembered George

BPRAL22169: But mostly her own mistress.

DavidWrightSr: I would have been surprised if she had popped up as Harriman's mistress

ddavitt: Later maybe, when Brian the rat had gone

OscagneTX: Are you kidding? With _his_ wife?

ddavitt: Well he was married...

ddavitt: to a dream

ddavitt: He would have slept with her to get the money for the trip maybe

BPRAL22169: I think he was deliberately doinga "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

ddavitt: Do people see a hint of Caleb Catlum to her being the guiding force in just about everything?

BPRAL22169: Can't be Harriman -- his actions are too circumscribed, but George's aren't.

ddavitt: Not to mention good ol laz being the relief pilot...

ddavitt: Isn't it just too much for one person to be responsible for?

DenvToday: Not true. Morrie Abrams was. lol

ddavitt: Like Ayla in the Clan of the cave Bear books,

OscagneTX: Its awfully convenient to the story. But that's sort of the point, too.

OscagneTX: History as Myth and whatnot.

ddavitt: inventing needles, horseback riding, cross bows...

ddavitt: maybe..

ddavitt: It's unsettling

DavidWrightSr: What fascinates me was how Heinlein was so rigid with immutable time travel for so long...

BPRAL22169: I guess, behind every successful man is one particular woman.

DavidWrightSr: and then switched in TCWWTW and Sail

ddavitt: Yes...

OscagneTX: Besides... if someone else had been core to the story, the story would have been about that person.

BPRAL22169: I'm not so sure about that -- Elsewhen, for example.

ddavitt: Got bored and wanted to have some fun?

BPRAL22169: Paradoxes exist only within a single timeline; if you're doing stories about paradoxes, then

BPRAL22169: you're committed to a single timeline.

BPRAL22169: But he melds the paradox to the multiple timeline in "All You Zombies."

BPRAL22169: 1957

ddavitt: Did anyone find any errors between sail and TEFL? Few conversations were altered

ddavitt: But that can be put down to it being from M's POV

ddavitt: Mostly anyway

DJedPar: Errors? No.

BPRAL22169: People do remember different things -- and remember differently.

OscagneTX: I guess I just don't have that good a memory. I never put a book down and

ddavitt: Except detective stories

OscagneTX: screamed to the heavens "THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN!"

ddavitt: Where people can recount whole conversations that took place years ago

BPRAL22169: That might have been the point of bringing in George Strong -- to justify the differences as

BPRAL22169: different viewpoints on the same events.

BPRAL22169: What's so strange about that, jane?

ddavitt: H wrote sail with TEFl open by him...

ddavitt: But kept some dialogue the same and changed others

ddavitt: I wonder why not change it all...

ddavitt: Or not retell the exact same events

BPRAL22169: I think we have to concede he did it that way for some deliberate reason -- not carelessness.

ddavitt: Have any of yuo read them together?

ddavitt: Oh yes, or he wouldn't have got any of it right

ddavitt: It could not have been careless

BPRAL22169: So the question is, is Maureen's telling fuller or just different?

ddavitt: He chose to vary things..was it the same timeline? Had something changed? Is it a clue?

DJedPar: I'd say fuller.

ddavitt: Had the BH's been erasing things?

BPRAL22169: "Or maybe we're up against an Author this time."

DenvToday: I think RAH's point is a Rashomon-like. Nobody experiences the same event in the same way.

ddavitt: maybe in the next book, we'd find out that this was a different version of the FH

ddavitt: But H never got to write it

OscagneTX: That, plus it would be less intertaining if it was just a retelling of the exact same stuff.

OscagneTX: erk. en...

BPRAL22169: The threesome in Maureen's bed does suggest a related but different timeline as well as simple

BPRAL22169: differebnces of viewppoint.

ddavitt: Didn't you say Bill or David that the next book would have explained more about the Circle?

ddavitt: Yes; in TEFl we go straight from maureen and LL together to him in France

BPRAL22169: Don't recall making that remark -- I thought the series wasn't completed yet.

DavidWrightSr: Hey. Just checked Requiem. George was or had been married. He talks about catching his boy...

ddavitt: In Sail he gets to sleep with nancy, carol, his mother and father...

DavidWrightSr: reading that sf stuff.

ddavitt: Is he a widower?

DavidWrightSr: Doesn't say, just that he had a son.

ddavitt: Love that bit in the letter in TEFL where he tells the future that he got to know his parenst better.

ddavitt: No kidding...

ddavitt: But again, not fair to read inferences into it...

ddavitt: At the time he wrote TEFL, that's how he wanted it to be.

DavidWrightSr: I personally think that we are dealing with a rigid immutable time line seen from different POV's

ddavitt: What about my idea that Bronson didn't exist until he went back, rather than always being there?

DavidWrightSr: With some inevitable problems due to them having been written years apart

ddavitt: Follow the temporal loop...

DavidWrightSr: plus the fact that he probably didn't intend to write the later ones initially.

ddavitt: Why didn't LL remember himself being there? Because he wasn't yet.

DJedPar: Very astute, Jane.

ddavitt:

ddavitt: I said it makes my head ache..and it does.

DavidWrightSr: Recall that Maureen's baby that she was carrying at the time was named 'Theodore Ira'.

ddavitt: I think i have it staright then I think of a problem

DavidWrightSr: That implies to me that it had already been sait

DavidWrightSr: sait=--set

DavidWrightSr: She couldn't have named the baby after him unless he had been there.

ddavitt: Good point..

OscagneTX: yea... If Laz remembered that his sibling was named Theodore Ira, then Cpl Ted was there

OscagneTX: the first time.

ddavitt: Unless it was a coincidence ,clinging desperately to theory>

ddavitt: maybe instead, knowing that was what his brother was called influened LL's choice of alias?

OscagneTX: Let me dig you out, Jane. Laz named himself after his sib when he went back...

ddavitt: GMTA

BPRAL22169: My buddy list has mysteriously disappeared -- will someone invite dehede011 in?

ddavitt: Sure

Dehede011 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there.

AGplusone: Bronson always existed. He got into trouble and enlisted 2,000 years in the future under an assumed

AGplusone: name: Bronski

AGplusone: in the M.I>

Dehede011: Hi Y'all

ddavitt: Hmm..interesting theory david!

BPRAL22169: Somehow I tend to doubt that one.

ddavitt: Spoilsport.

BPRAL22169: Unless they are becoming the VMI -- Very Mobile Marines (Not Virginia Military Institute)

AGplusone: and in the World AS Myth, we're going to see a tie in with that line.

BPRAL22169: It certainly could happen.

ddavitt: Which brings me back; is it cheating?

ddavitt: Doe sit allow the author to be lazy?

ddavitt: Does it

ddavitt: tired fingers...

BPRAL22169: Somehow I don't think so.

AGplusone: It's not lazy to work out a possible way to tie them all together, all the worlds, all the lines.

OscagneTX: Its not cheating if its internally consistent. And splitting timelines lets EVERYTHING be consistent

AGplusone: It's HARD!

ddavitt: But all can be resolved with a stroke of the pen

ddavitt: Or a swipe of the eraser

AGplusone: And a heck of an imagination.

BPRAL22169: Several strokes of the pen, actually.

ddavitt: poetic license

BPRAL22169: And a brain the size of a planet.

OscagneTX: I heard an Asimov fan sneer that Heinlein was stretching to make his stories fit together...

ddavitt: i hope Heinlein was less depressed than marvin

OscagneTX: "The same way Asimov's did naturally."

BPRAL22169: Oh, there's irony for you.

DavidWrightSr:LL says: 'When I read his name in the records, I didn't know that he was my namesake...

OscagneTX: fauh.

DavidWrightSr: as I hadn't picked my assumed name then."

AGplusone: Why "fauh"?

BPRAL22169: The 'g' is not only silent -- it's invisible.

OscagneTX: That implication grates. That H was imitating A.

AGplusone: I understand completely.

ddavitt: Does he say that then David?

DavidWrightSr: Yes. when he is explaining to Maureen who and what he is.

AGplusone: How can Heinlein be imitating Asimov and be imitating Cabell and be imitating (who was it? Lewis?) all

ddavitt: Got it.

AGplusone: at once?

ddavitt: OK, i give in:-)

ddavitt: Asimov and Heinlein were so different as writers that that can't be taken seriuosly

ddavitt: I like them both but for different reasons

DavidWrightSr: Me, too.

AGplusone: This is a combination of the "Future History" and Cabell's link-up all at once. We don't 'need no

McKevin0 has entered the room.

AGplusone: stin*** A

ddavitt: Don't know why so many people think they can't like both

DJedPar: The difference is that Isaac love Isaac, Heinlein loved everybody.

DenvToday: Hello Kevin

ddavitt: Hi!

McKevin0: Hidy

AGplusone: Hi, Kevin ....

fgherman has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia

fgherman: Evening all

ddavitt: Isaac was eccentric but honest about his quirks

DenvToday: Evening

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

DJedPar: Yes.

AGplusone: open anyway

ddavitt: His autobiographies are fascinating

fgherman: I'm just glad he never touched me

ddavitt: literally?

AGplusone: he certainly had a lot to say about people ...

fgherman: literally

OscagneTX: Was he contagious or something?

fgherman: Just a dirty old man

ddavitt: He was very frank about his odd affairs

BPRAL22169: Come, come now: he had much more to say about himself, with 3 autobiographies and a

BPRAL22169: posthumous collection of letters.

AGplusone: the business about Leslyn 'putting her cigarettes out on plates.' that would have annoyed my mother,

ddavitt: How did he find time for it all?

DenvToday: Didn't he write a book called The Sensuous Dirty Old Man or something like that?

AGplusone: but she never would have published that as a portrait of a lady

ddavitt: So many books...

ddavitt: Yes, limericks I think

OscagneTX: "still likes pretty girls" "sit in his lap" he'll tell you anything in the library.

BPRAL22169: He did nothing but write after about 1960

ddavitt: NOTB!

AGplusone: unless she hated the lady (and then she'd have thought twice about it).

ddavitt: He knew a lot about a lot...

ddavitt: His work on Shakespeare was a lot of fun to read

DenvToday: I agree Jane. Also his work on the Bible.

DavidWrightSr: Bill. What did you mean, "melds the paradox to the multiple timeline in AYZ"?

fgherman: He did give a great lecture - Joel and I heard him speak @ UConn

ddavitt: I haven't seen that but I've heard of it.

BPRAL22169: Oh - AYZ is a paradox story -- the ultimate paradox story. But at the end, he is sitting in

ddavitt: When did Bill say that?

BPRAL22169: a room watching the slogans of the Circle of Ouroboros come up on a screen.

DavidWrightSr: But there were no paradoxes in AYZ.

AGplusone: [let me send you a copy of the log Felicia ... anyone else want one?]

ddavitt: You should know:-)

BPRAL22169: No -- it's all paradox, the "I'm my own grandpa" paradox

McKevin0: sure

BPRAL22169: "The exception that proves the rule."

DavidWrightSr: I disagree. The paradox would have been if he had altered an event. that didn't happen

AGplusone: need full email addresses

OscagneTX: I thought a paradox was a logical "impossibility". Everything in AYZ was possible, internally.

DavidWrightSr: Right Os.

ddavitt: Shall we have a brief break to allow them to be mailed and folks to catch up?

BPRAL22169: I don't think the term "paradox" is that rigid.

DavidWrightSr: McKevin. Do you want to be on the mailing list for notices.

ddavitt: OK, I declare recess for 5 mins or so...

McKevin0: sure - thanks

DenvToday: <---afk to listen to Pirates of Penzance

McKevin0: Laphroaig break

fgherman: Time for another martini

ddavitt: Which generally means people just carry on chatting anyway ...

BPRAL22169: But in any case it doesn't matter -- AYZ is a single-timeline; RAH linked it to World as Myth

BPRAL22169: The character of AYZ is an agent of the Circle of Ouroboros.

ddavitt: Heinlein readers and single malts...an unexplored area of research

ddavitt: He didn't like it much himself I beleive?

BPRAL22169: Just the best of anything, that's all...

ddavitt: Brandy drinker

AGplusone: afk for a beer .... it's after 7 here.

ddavitt: Over the yardarm...

DavidWrightSr: But he changed nothing. Everything went according to the way it had.

BPRAL22169: "Paradox: a tenet contrary to received opinion; a statement that is seemingly contra-

BPRAL22169: dictory or opposed to commonsense and yet is perhaps true; a self-contradictory statement

ddavitt: "common sense' is a null concept

DavidWrightSr: But the term vis a vis time travel has a different meaning, I think

McKevin0: thanks

DavidWrightSr: We'll get back to it. I've got to break too BRB

OscagneTX: pah. the more optimistic stories I read the more pessimistic I become.

BPRAL22169: that apprently derives self-contradictory results from true premises (and I think that's

DenvToday: Warm wine is a mull concept

BPRAL22169: the sense in which is it used in time travel stories)

Dehede011: OOPS, I have to go, see you folks, nite

OscagneTX: give me a minute to mull that over.

Dehede011 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: ; something with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

AGplusone: [ .... pop .... hiss ..... aw .....]

AGplusone: back

OscagneTX: front

OscagneTX: er...that should be..

ddavitt: We are heading into pun land

OscagneTX: FRONT!!

OscagneTX: /em looks around for a harem of secretaries.

ddavitt: Felicia and I are too busy in the pool to be front

ddavitt: What does that mean anyway?

ddavitt: Front and centre?

AGplusone: [wife who got home thirty minutes ago looks around for harem of secretaries ... muttering]

ddavitt: Army command?

AGplusone: Yes.

DenvToday: What with unemployment insurance, social security, state and city employment taxes...I think they'd be

DenvToday: out of owrk.

BPRAL22169: No -- Front Desk! Where the bellhops are supposed to be.

ddavitt: Really?

fgherman: BTW, Joel sends his regards to everyone.

AGplusone: Means drop out of your position in formation and march to right in front of the commander

ddavitt: Say hi from us.

BPRAL22169: I don't know whether the usages are parallel or derived.

ddavitt: Dissension in the ranks on this one then.

AGplusone: Back at him. Wish you were coming to Philly .... he does know why we're having din-din at Bookbinder's

AGplusone: right?

BPRAL22169: But he was using it in the hotelier's sense of front.

ddavitt: I can't beleive that this has never come up before...

OscagneTX: I thought front and center originated as a stage term...

ddavitt: A THIRD possibility!

ddavitt: Gosh..

ddavitt: Not a newspaper term is it?

AGplusone: No, it's a military command: Private Smith, front and center! Means an award coming, or someone's goin

AGplusone: ta shoot him, possibly.

ddavitt: Oh, brb; lauren crying, david bath

OscagneTX: /me opens a widget. AHHHHH

DJedPar: Affront = means "in your face" french derivative

AGplusone: j/k

AGplusone: The command to send him back after you pin the ribbon or stripes on him is simply: Post!

McKevin0: what's the command after you shoot him?

OscagneTX: I always wanted to get hands on a BTTT, then take my books with me. (not just heinleins)

AGplusone: Ready, aim, fire, of course.

BPRAL22169: And stay dead, dammit!"

OscagneTX: Show Belgarath the Belgariad and watch his face.

McKevin0: ready, fire, aim?

AGplusone: or Dismissed.

BPRAL22169: I see David is a belt and suspenders man.

McKevin0: "consider that a divorce?" - Oh, wrong story

DenvToday: What's the command for the circular firing squad?

AGplusone: Actually, now that I think on it "Order Arms"

BPRAL22169: Shoot him, then execute him.

ddavitt: back

McKevin0: violent in here - better watch out

AGplusone: Thank goodness.

OscagneTX: that'd be a suicide mission, no?

BPRAL22169: David was just instructing us on the etiquette of shooting someone then having him executed.

OscagneTX: I reminded of the Life of Brian suicide squad.

ddavitt: I din't know; i'm away for a second and war breaks out

McKevin0: with two kids, you should be used to that

BPRAL22169: It's another gun thread, Jane.

ddavitt: True.

OscagneTX: breaks up? breaks in? breaks in.

BPRAL22169: What is it with you and gun threads.

ddavitt: Hadn't better be; not on my watch

BPRAL22169: breaks out, I think.

ddavitt: I don't know. I'm just a peaceful housewife

OscagneTX: I hate gun threads. You get those by bore-cleaning with sub-standard cloth.

fgherman: If it's a gun thread, I should get Joel

BPRAL22169: Maureen Johnson said that, too.

ddavitt: So did hilda...

ddavitt: brb again

DenvToday: I can't stand gun threads. It's so difficult sewing with them.

BPRAL22169: Ah, she's afk -- the cats may play.

fgherman: and they smell like gunpowder

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- the needles get tangled in the trigger guards.

OscagneTX: you're making that up out of whole cloth.

AGplusone: LOL ... thread in bore, Sergeant, give him two hours extra duty tonight.

McKevin0: I always need stiches after a gun thread

DenvToday: lol

fgherman: I'm always *in* stitches during a gun thread

OscagneTX: I've always thought they were bore-ing.

McKevin0: (just needling everyone)

DenvToday: We really ought to muzzle all the puns.

AGplusone: Doe, a needle pulling thread ... er, Fred

AGplusone: Doe and Fred got married last year

DenvToday: It's a breach of etiquette.

McKevin0: had a gun pun backfire on me once

DenvToday: Let's all take stock, then refuse to pun.

OscagneTX: Somebody find Spyder and give him a drink so he'll shut up.

BPRAL22169: I didn't see a guitar case come into the room . . .

ddavitt: sorry; cats got in L's room while D was feeding her

McKevin0: she's a little L'cat?

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: Who won the fight for the food, L, or the cats?

ddavitt: Sometimes

OscagneTX: Does that make Pixel an M'cat?

ddavitt: cats were fighting under the cot and woke her up well and truly

fgherman: yuck

ddavitt: She is pulling at her ear:-(

ddavitt: Goig to be a bad night...again

fgherman: I don't blame her

ddavitt: She wake sup every 2 hours in the night and has done for nearly 2 months. I'm a zombie

McKevin0: don't you wish you had 17, like Maureen?

ddavitt: She was mad.

fgherman: Jane, Judy did that too.

ddavitt: But I know women like her

AGplusone: Back to Maureen ... who would you believe: Maureen or Woody?

fgherman: This, too, shall pass

ddavitt: How did you stop her?

OscagneTX: Is that even a question? Maureen.

ddavitt: Tell me, tell me!

DenvToday: I would believe Maureen.

OscagneTX: Woody lies just for the sheer hell of itl.

ddavitt: She's his mother

fgherman: Turned off the monitor and let her cry it out eventually

AGplusone: " all things pass, so too will this ...." you did read the log, din' ya, Felicia!

ddavitt: Might come to that

fgherman: Ear plugs help

ddavitt: If i can be sure she's not poorly

fgherman: ;-)

McKevin0: My favorite Bible verse - "It came to pass." (i.e., not to stay)

ddavitt: She is 9 months and has 8 teeth; got them all at once which must hurt

ddavitt: So we have cut her some slack

AGplusone: give her a popsicle to chew on ...

fgherman: Did you give her some Tylenol for the discomfort

ddavitt: But I am getting vert tired

McKevin0: You rub a little rum from a jigger on her gums, then you drink the rest

ddavitt: Yes and Doc$Kidz said Ibuprofen so i tried that too

ddavitt: Doc4Kidz I mean

fgherman: Bourbon or scotch rubbed on with a q-tip will numb some of that for here

ddavitt: Which did help a bit

AGplusone: [Italian families use brandy ... hush, don't tell my mother]

ddavitt: I have heard that...

OscagneTX: family legend is that when I started being a problem, I got a thimble of bourbon.

ddavitt: but the teeth are through now so no excuse

ddavitt: unless more are on the way..

McKevin0: wait until they start driving....

fgherman: It worked for me when my wisdom teeth came in

ddavitt: Sory...going off topic here.

ddavitt: Boring all the non parents

McKevin0: kids and TEFL are always on topic

fgherman: Now I just apply it internally

OscagneTX: I never did fetter myself by topic.

ddavitt: Good idea..i'll get drunk and insensible

fgherman: "Topic? We don't need no stinkin' topic."

OscagneTX: I have trouble believing "insensible". "Drunk" maybe...

McKevin0: we need a topical solution to the teething problem

ddavitt: Insensible so i can't hear the howls

AGplusone: 'tis the reason why the Irish don't rule the world ... just ask my grandmother, then duck!

DenvToday: I find that a thimble-full of bourbon cures most of my ills. I should mention that I own one of the

AGplusone: Back to Sail ....

DavidWrightSr: The paradox, as I understand it, in time travel deals with someone doing something

DavidWrightSr: which affects his own past to the point where he couldn't have gone into the past

DenvToday: world's few 8-oz thimbles.

ddavitt: Eventually she will sleep through..only a few more years to go

DavidWrightSr: to make the change, thus making the events contradictory.

DavidWrightSr: Actually, this doesn't preclude the scenario where someone

DavidWrightSr: else might change a person's past/future.

McKevin0: oops, I meand kids and TSBTS

ddavitt: Headache coming....

ddavitt: time travel is so hard to discuss

McKevin0: hard to do also

ddavitt: NOTB, deety says need a new vocab/language

ddavitt: To describe it

OscagneTX: time travel is not difficult. We're doing it now. %^)

DavidWrightSr: Lazarus said that also

AGplusone: Makes you wonder how the world Maureen wakes up in came to pass .... the rejected minister who locked

AGplusone: her in the closet gains power ... ?

ddavitt: She speculates it's a weird one

McKevin0: I just want someone like LL to leave me some sealed envelopes with boom/bust info

ddavitt: And again caleb catlum time....with Santa carolita day

BPRAL22169: LL never did any such thing!

DenvToday: I would settle for a list of Super Bowl winners.

AGplusone: sneaks into her house one night, finds LL's predictions, ...

OscagneTX: I'd like to live with the other Longs. Don't think I'd be invited, though.

McKevin0: OK, Ted B

BPRAL22169: Maureen wrote down what he told her.

ddavitt: Now it's her daughter who's the world heroine

AGplusone: and instead of raping her in revenge .... takes the letters.

McKevin0: details, detalis

ddavitt: But why did Ll feel he had to tell her?

ddavitt: Why did he think it was safe?

AGplusone: Is Santa Carolita mentioned in Catlum ... I don't understand because I've never read it, Jane.

BPRAL22169: Easy -- it came out that way, didn't it?

ddavitt: Nor have I :-)

BPRAL22169: I don't remember a Santa Carolita in Caleb Catlum's America. Where did the reference arise?

McKevin0: What is Catlum? - missed that

ddavitt: No, it's her daughter's birthday party; on that strange world it's a national holiday

ddavitt: Isn't the premise of caleb that all the big people in history are his family in disguise?

ddavitt: I haven't read it; got that from Stover

BPRAL22169: Not all his family -- just the redheaded immortals.

ddavitt: It's a book, Caleb catlum's America that is supposed to be an influence on the Long family

BPRAL22169: Vincent McHugh 1936 -- RAH extremely fond of the book. Almost quotes it verbatim in TEFL

ddavitt: Well you see what I mean though?

AGplusone: Like the green eyed redheaded immortals in EE Smith ....

ddavitt: More of the same

ddavitt: Maureen's daughter 's birthday is a national holiday, a saturnalia? Come on!

BPRAL22169: Planetary anyway.

AGplusone: probably a world holiday

ddavitt: Too much of a coincidence without BH's

BPRAL22169: It's carnival.

AGplusone: Man Travelled in Elephants too much

ddavitt: The whole of the book is to explain why maureen clamps down when she hears about it

AGplusone: :-)

BPRAL22169: Fat Tuesday kind of carnival, I mean.

ddavitt: If you reas it carefully. The whole flashback goes from there right till near the end

DenvToday: Dave, that story never fails to bring a tear to my eye. Along with Dora's tale, it's one of RAH'...

DenvToday: ...most touching.

BPRAL22169: I agree.

AGplusone: The recording is nice too

AGplusone: much better than seeing a white bearded old man at the end

AGplusone: he's got to take out his book and see whether you've been good or bad

ddavitt: 'As I have explained in excessive detail"...24 chapters actually

AGplusone: " ... so be good, for goodness sakes."

AGplusone: uh-huh

BPRAL22169: There is something quite 19th-century novel-like about that, isn't there?

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

OscagneTX: I don't think I trust old white-beard. He's done some crummy things.

AGplusone: Letters from the Earth ....

ddavitt: Yes, they often start at the nd and work back

BPRAL22169: I was thinking George Meredith with that long subtitle.

ddavitt: Moll Flanders

ddavitt: A good role model

ddavitt: for Mo

AGplusone: Actress in ER who played her did a marvelous job

AGplusone: Kingston

DenvToday: Alex Kingston

ddavitt: The series a few years back/ lots of red hair?

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: BBC one?

AGplusone: yes, of course

BPRAL22169: She is exceptionally good, isn't she?

ddavitt: I enjoyed that a lot

AGplusone: She could do Maureen!

ddavitt: She would be perfect

BPRAL22169: Yes, she could. I would believe her.

DenvToday: I've always pictured Maureen as a young Maureen O'Hara.

McKevin0: me too

ddavitt: The cover of Sail is pretty..but it's not her

fgherman: Well, without real time-travel, all we've got is an old Maureen O'Hara

DenvToday: lol very true

McKevin0: who could play LL?

fgherman: Not that there's anything wrong with that

DavidWrightSr: I've known two 'Maureen's, one actually named that

AGplusone: <----- second sin tonight, started movie casting thread. Put another dime in the box.

DenvToday: Hmmmm....good question.

ddavitt:

OscagneTX: hm. A casting thread. We should -iron- it out.

DenvToday: Again, going back in time, Jason Robards Jr. about 40 years ago. We'd dye his hair.

McKevin0: this whole chat could unravel

DavidWrightSr: Puns should be a quarter in the box

DavidWrightSr: :-)

McKevin0: No Quarter for Punsters!

fgherman: Hugh jackman

AGplusone: someone sly and sneaky. Alan Richman

DenvToday: Rickman's a great actor, but he's getting on.

BPRAL22169: No -- the lead for the first season of "Earth: Final Conflict." kevin something or other.

AGplusone: true

ddavitt: My friend adores him..Rickman, because of his voice

AGplusone: but playing young is always possible

ddavitt: He is in the harry potter film as Snape

fgherman: I just plain adore Alan Rickman

BPRAL22169: He looks the part, but he doesn't have the presence Alan Rickman has.

ddavitt: He is very talented

ddavitt: So mant different parts he's played...

fgherman: Hugh Jackman played Logan in X-men

ddavitt: Dogma, Sense and Sensibility...Galaxy quest

ddavitt: Huge range

BPRAL22169: Wasn't he in Strange Days, too?

AGplusone: David Caruso looked like he'd be good for it, years ago, especially when he played the Marine Lt in

fgherman: Die Hard, Truly, Madly, Deeply,

ddavitt: Don't know that one.

DenvToday: I saw him in NY in Dangerous Liasons. He was terrific.

DavidWrightSr: He's not my idea of LL though.

fgherman: nope that was Ralph Fiennes

ddavitt: Die hard yes. He's a good villain

AGplusone: Indianapolis sinking movie, but he's dissapated too much.

AGplusone: dissipated

DenvToday: Yes Felicia. Wonderful film. I'm one of the few males that like it. Hmmm...

ddavitt: Young Burt lancaster

fgherman: Jude Law

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, OT warning: This Way Lies Madness.

DavidWrightSr: A young Kirk Douglas

ddavitt: The Voice of Doom

fgherman: Michael Douglas?

ddavitt: He would be baslim

DavidWrightSr: No worse than Time Travel :-)

fgherman: (ducking)

AGplusone: Liam Neeson?

DavidWrightSr: Not Michael.

ddavitt: I am hopeless; i never know actors names..

fgherman: Schindler from Schindler's List

ddavitt: That's why i don't do casting threads cos i don't know who you all mean most of the time

BPRAL22169: Liam Neeson?

AGplusone: Rob Roy from Rob Roy

DenvToday: Neeson? Too tall, too good-looking.

DavidWrightSr: Me too, I can remember Kirk Douglas and Burt Lancaster, but that is about as far as it goes

ddavitt: Well, I won't be here for the saturday chat but I'll try and make the THS meeing in between soccer

AGplusone: plays sneaky good, tho

ddavitt: and the after game party

AGplusone: too heroic?

ddavitt: Now I'm off to see to lauren again.

BPRAL22169: I always figured LL got away with sneaky because he doesn't look sneaky.

ddavitt: Night all.

OscagneTX: 'night

McKevin0: night

BPRAL22169: Ciao.

fgherman: Good night jane

AGplusone: night

ddavitt has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: What's the time for the next meeting?

DenvToday: How about a younger Lee Marvin for LL?

AGplusone: THS, or reading chat?

DavidWrightSr: THS?

fgherman: Kevin Kline

DenvToday: Kline would be good.

DavidWrightSr: THS yes

OscagneTX: KK for LL. good choice.

BPRAL22169: Somebody would have to teach him posture.

fgherman: Nick NOlte

AGplusone: Actually, I always thought an "aw shucks" jimmie stewart type would do Laz well

McKevin0: Nolte would be great

fgherman: Can you tell I'm a move fan?

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: For THS -- Saturday at 10 a.m. PDT -- that's 1 p.m. for the left coasters.

AGplusone: Remember how nasty old Jimmie got in Winchester 73?

DenvToday: Henry Fonda might have been good in the part

fgherman: Nicholas Cage is an obvious choice

DenvToday: He's got that Missouri middle-America thing going.

DavidWrightSr: The problem with casting LL is that it would take different ones for different ages

fgherman: And Cage could do them all - he's extraordinary

AGplusone: dye his hair red? he'd look like Mike Piazza as a blond. Silly

McKevin0: lets ask Veerhoven

AGplusone: put a dime in the box, Kevin

McKevin0: ducking

DavidWrightSr: That's a dollar in the box

fgherman: I vote for Bryan Singer

fgherman: fgherman: (and I'm not even using Internet Movie Database www.imdb.com)

DenvToday: Okay, I've got LL. Tom Hanks.

fgherman: Too trustworthy

BPRAL22169: No, no -- John Travolta!

fgherman: No! - we need an actor

DenvToday: Saturday Night Lazarus?

BPRAL22169: LOL

McKevin0: Freddy Prinze, Jr.

BPRAL22169: Hey -- he's Staying Alive -- isn't that good enough?

DenvToday: lol

DJedPar: Clint Eastwood?

AGplusone: Eastwood in Misty?

McKevin0: brrrrrr

DenvToday: Play Minerva For Me

AGplusone: *not* as the pig-farmer

fgherman: Joel says Al Pacino or Rober DeNiro

DenvToday: How about Russel Crowe?

AGplusone: hsssss

fgherman: (he always suggests them, though)

BPRAL22169: Michael Biehn?

McKevin0: Harrison Ford?

McKevin0: I can see him as Ted

DenvToday: I would suggest Wesley Snipes, but um..uh..well...

BPRAL22169: OK -- I believe we are well over into Madness now.

AGplusone: How 'bout old man Johnson. That would be fun to cast!

fgherman: Gary Sinise

DenvToday: Bill, you say that as if it's a bad thing.

BPRAL22169: Snipes does do the redhead thing, though, doesn't he?

DenvToday: lol Good point

McKevin0: Sinse would be real good

BPRAL22169: Just an observation. Just an observation.

fgherman: He was a blond in one movie

DenvToday: Sinise would be excellent.

BPRAL22169: Well, for that matter, there's that Laker maniac.

BPRAL22169: Ex-Laker.

McKevin0: Rodman

fgherman: Christopher Lloyd

BPRAL22169: Right. Dennis Rodman.

BPRAL22169: Hey - maybe we could get Howie Long. He's got the right last name.

McKevin0: Now that we've got Mo and LL cast....

DavidWrightSr: Maybe that would explain why some people think Colin Campbell is black.

fgherman: Stanley Tucci

BPRAL22169: That's it -- we'll cast Dennis Rodman as Colin Campbell.

BPRAL22169: And Viveca Fox as Gwen.

DenvToday: I have a question: Do you think Doc McRae in Red Planet was L.L.?

DavidWrightSr: And Snipes as his father Lazarus Long

BPRAL22169: Bill Murray as -- who else? -- Bill.

AGplusone: Richard Farnsworth, the one who committed suicide, or .... for Dr. Johnson

BPRAL22169: Richard Farnsworth would have made a great Ira Johnson.

DenvToday: Samuel Clemens would be perfect casting as Dr. Johnson. If we could get him we could use...

DenvToday: ...Hal Holbrook.

AGplusone: or ... the good old boy who plays the assistant attorney general who comes into the Paul Newman gets

fgherman: Do we get Dixie Carter thrown in?

OscagneTX: gotta get up in 7 hours. 'night all.

McKevin0: Jason Robards would make a good Dr. Johnson

AGplusone: libeled in the newspaper movie.

BPRAL22169: Wilford Brimley.

AGplusone: Yes.

DenvToday: Maureen in her later years?

OscagneTX has left the room.

AGplusone: Brimley

fgherman: Bob Hoskins for Ruffo

DenvToday: Danny Devito for Ruffo

DenvToday: Hoskins would be better.

fgherman: Joel's suggestion

AGplusone: Hoskins much better

DenvToday: We could always get Sancho Panza for Ruffo. Is he busy?

fgherman: Brian Dennehy as Doc Johnson

AGplusone: Yaphet Koto as Ruffo

fgherman: I'm getting *way * too silly

DenvToday: Dennehy would be great as L.L. if he lost 60 lbs.

AGplusone: seriously

DavidWrightSr: As Bill said , Madness

AGplusone: [hate to say this: young Redford as Laz .... Jeremiah Johnson ]

fgherman: Good night all

AGplusone: or as "Bill" in Happy Valley anyway

McKevin0: night

fgherman has left the room.

DenvToday: My gf is in love with that actor from JAG, can't remember his name. Him for L.L.?

DenvToday: Or for Oscar?

AGplusone: possible, except we'd have to break his nose and give him a scar

DenvToday: True. And it would be fun.

McKevin0: What's his name who played Ted Bundy

DenvToday: Harmon

McKevin0: Mark Harmon

AGplusone: Mark Harmon, old UCLA quarterback! Rah, rah, rah.

McKevin0: Or Sonny Corleone

DenvToday: Al Pacino would make a good Ruffo

McKevin0: I think he'd have the edge

DenvToday: Or Dustin Hoffman

AGplusone: Have to fatten him up like DeNiro

AGplusone: but Pacino can do Leghorn, he can certainly do Ruffo

McKevin0: He could play Both LL and Mo

McKevin0: (Dustin, that is)

DJedPar: Aaaaaarrrrgh!

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: I told you, did I not?

McKevin0: (it's the Laophraig)

DavidWrightSr: Madness??? Yes indeed

DJedPar: You sure did!

AGplusone: <---- several more dimes for starting this

DenvToday: If we weren't mad, would we all be here?

AGplusone: "have a round of dimes on me"

DJedPar: It's still fun, nevertheless.

AGplusone: 'tis, even if we feel silly. I'm very proud of suggesting Kingman!

McKevin0: Somewhere in here, the right actor has been cast

AGplusone: Kingston

AGplusone: eh

BPRAL22169: Maybe not for the right role --

DenvToday: Juliana Moore for Maureen

McKevin0: Waldo?

BPRAL22169: Kingston was bang on.

AGplusone: <---actually with her fire she might pull off Star if she was blonde

ggsollars has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Gordon! Welcome

McKevin0: OK, now we can start this over with Gordon

BPRAL22169: Gordon!

BPRAL22169: Nononononono!

DavidWrightSr: Please No

ggsollars: I just got back from a meeting and I see that there are a few die hards left.

DenvToday: I still picture Star as Bo Derek. Does that make me a bad person?

AGplusone: Good, we can get serious now. No more casting Alex Kingston as Maureen.

AGplusone: Did you get your Journal yet?

ggsollars: No.

AGplusone: <--- Bill doesn't get to sff often.

AGplusone: Doesn't know Leslyn has been the topic over there

BPRAL22169: I haeve to find a Netscape server.

ggsollars: But I saw your message. If they were mailed two days ago, I wouldn;t expect to have mine yet

DenvToday: RAH's first wife?

BPRAL22169: Second, actually.

DenvToday: Oh. lol

DenvToday: Shrouded in mystery.

AGplusone: Yes, there's a long article by robert james on Leslyn in the Journal, issue 9, just issued

AGplusone: some amazing stuff

ggsollars: Has anything been learned about the mysterious 1st wife?

DenvToday: How does one subscribe?

BPRAL22169: What are they saying over on sff?

BPRAL22169: The Heinlein Journal, 602 W. Bennett AVe., Glendora, CA 91741

AGplusone: They were talking about Heinlein heroines ....

AGplusone: and unrealistic meetings

DenvToday: Only by snail mail Bill?

McKevin0: Lust at first sight?

BPRAL22169: So far -- I tried electronic mail for the early issues, but it didn't work out well.

DenvToday: I'll write. How much?

BPRAL22169: And this last issue is a 14 Mb file!

AGplusone: got pitchurs

AGplusone: of Leslyn ...

AGplusone: etc

ggsollars: Pictures? What's next? Four color?

DavidWrightSr: Single Issue 7.50 ?

McKevin0: everyone was black & white back then

AGplusone: und after dat, der wald!

BPRAL22169: Depends on what you want -- first 6 as a bound volume for $35 + $7.50 per issue after

AGplusone: Also a rather nice review of Never Love a Stranger, or whatever these two guys named Patterson and

DenvToday: That could be true. The film was color--thw world was black and white.

BPRAL22169: that. We're up to #9 now.

AGplusone: Thorton came out with.

DenvToday: Okay, thanks Bill.

AGplusone: <----has been consuming mass quantities. I apologize, Gordon

BPRAL22169: yeah, that Davitt dudette can really rite, huh?

McKevin0: (English as a first language)

ggsollars: Sorry I cam so late to this party. I take it that there was a definite topic at one time. ;-)

BPRAL22169: We actually did talk about To Sail and TEFL for an hour or so.

DavidWrightSr: Yes, but someone time tripped and changed the past :-)

AGplusone: Yep ... someone please define it for Gordon (mass quantities, here, is confused)

DenvToday: Old age hath yet his honour and his toil

DenvToday: Is TSBTS the last RAH work, or was it the last published work?

BPRAL22169: Last novel.

BPRAL22169: he wrote the "Godbody" preface later.

AGplusone: I felt he was trying to wind up all the themes as a finale in TSBTS and perhaps coming closer to a

McKevin0: Just be sure you read them all in the correct order

AGplusone: "truth" in Mo than in any other narrator

AGplusone: more sophisticated, more reliable, less inhibited

AGplusone: and a great deal more patient that that liar Woody

DenvToday: Very true. Excellent points.

AGplusone: More tolerant about trivialities too ...

DenvToday: I still haven't forgiven Brian. lol

McKevin0: the rat

AGplusone: and Maureen would never disclose her hiding places under her kilt

AGplusone: to the reader or anyone else

DenvToday: Brian paid, though. He died at the ridiculously young age of a mere century.

ggsollars: The wages of Sin is death.

DenvToday: I thought it was $14.50 per hour.

AGplusone: or terminal foolishness

AGplusone: young men lead with their pelvises, old men damned well learn better

McKevin0: "If you marry that young woman at your age, it could be fatal." "Well, if she dies, she dies..."

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: Good One!

AGplusone: better learn better

AGplusone: I always though Ulysses was the most thoughtful and secretive of men ... and To Sail has a female Ulys

AGplusone: ready for new adventures. Woody's just laying around with his harem in this one.

AGplusone: dreaming until he gets the call from her

McKevin0: well, gotta go - my young bride is calling me\

McKevin0 has left the room.

AGplusone: [tying hard to draw some reason beyond the title for Tennyson's poem here]

DenvToday: I think it applied to RAH rather than LL

DenvToday: "Old age hath yet his honor and his toil..."

AGplusone: LL is one of Maureen's men, who Uly calls out of retirement to SBTS

DenvToday: "Death closes all, but something ere the end, some work of noble note may yet be done..."

DenvToday: "...not unbecoming men that strove with gods."

AGplusone: and they're going back after daddy too

ggsollars: I've got to go, as well. For you folks going to Philly, have fun - but remember what Jubal said

ggsollars: about the place.

AGplusone: which was .... ?

ggsollars has left the room.

AGplusone: same thing Dunkenfield (?) said?

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Something about Duke wanting to go to Philadelphia for a sanity day.

BPRAL22169: or night, more appropriately.

DavidWrightSr: Why would anyone want to spend a night in Philly?

AGplusone: aka as "it was closed"

AGplusone: Anyone reading the bio of John Adams?

BPRAL22169: chacun a son gout

DenvToday: Not yet. I plan to.

AGplusone: Very interesting portrait of Philly at the beginning of the story which begins in 1776 of course

AGplusone: Adams rides down from MA to the beginning of 2d CC

AGplusone: very good so far

AGplusone: We have 30 minutes .... your pleasure, gentlemen.

DenvToday: Actually, I must be going. Early morning. I'll try to make it back on Saturday.

DenvToday: Thank you all for a terrific discussion as always.

AGplusone: Good, looking forward to seeing you Ron

DenvToday: Night all.

DenvToday: Thanks

DenvToday has left the room.

DJedPar: Me too, Bye all.

DJedPar has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I think it would be a good time to pack it in today. A pleasure, all.

BPRAL22169: They gave them Oscars?

AGplusone: not exactly

BPRAL22169: Oh, a different academy...

DavidWrightSr: Bill. Does that 7.50 include shipping

BPRAL22169: Yes. In the U.S. The international rate is $10 per issue.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. I'll be sending a check soon.

BPRAL22169: I think we're done here, aren't we?

AGplusone: yes

BPRAL22169: In that case, i'll say goodnight.

AGplusone: g'night, Bill, g'night David

DavidWrightSr: David. Do I leave in our pre-chat discussion.

BPRAL22169: Ciao

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: Sure, no problem there

DavidWrightSr: It's ok by me, but its your call. I thought it was interesting

AGplusone: so did Felicia

AGplusone: which flattered me no end

AGplusone: yes

DavidWrightSr: I got pretty bored with the casting stuff. Like Jane I don't know

DavidWrightSr: most of todays actors/actresses. Hope we can keep on topic Sat

AGplusone: We'll try. I'm really not sure what topic. Saturday, special schedule.

DavidWrightSr: Different from tonight? I hadn't heard that. Oh. Because Jane won't be there

DavidWrightSr: OK. That's it for me. See you Sat. Night David

AGplusone: g'nite from NBC news

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed 11:45 P.M. EDT


Final End Of Discussion Log

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