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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

08-03-2000 Thursday 9:00-12:00PM

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Go to Beginning of Discussion Log

Here begin the AFH Postings


"If This Goes on...","Stories Never Written" and "Logic of Empire" Thanks to Bill Patterson for collecting and pre-editing these postings for me. I was short on time this week: David

Subject: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone)

Date: 7/23/2000 4:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time

The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group

Please see the following websites:

http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

http://members.aol.com/agplusone/rahmain.htm

and for instructions in using AIM especially, see:

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

 
Topic: The Short Story "Logic Of Empire"
the afterward "Concerning Stories Never Written"
and the novella "If This Goes On.." 

Place: On "AIM" software, in the room "Heinlein Readers Group chat" for which the basic download site is: and to which a 24/7 webpage link is contained at:

http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

Dates & times: Thursday, August 3, 2000, from 9 PM to midnight, EDT and Saturday, August 5, 2000, from 5 to 8 PM, EDT

[To attend: Register, download and install AIM. You need not put anything in the profile they offer you. Notify me please by e-mail of your registered user name so we may know to expect to see you in the room.]

We've returned to our chronological review of the Future History. Samuel Clemens, whose spirit left us in 1911 when Haley's Comet passed over, the same passing a four-year-old boy watched in amazed wonder one evening in a backyard in Missouri, believed the greatest challenge to our liberties is posed by extremes advocated by the religious who insinuate themselves into the fabric of our social order and seek to create a theocracy. Twain's sceptical forecast has not yet come to pass, but it could. There have been theocracies in past power here, in England and elsewhere, there are theocracies governing other countries today, and the unsettling question whether any one sect could obtain a working majority of the electorate at the polls and take over will never be settled as long as elections are held in our countries. Oliver Cromwell's party did once take over following a democratic parlimentary election. In the United States, we think "[t]he country is split up into such a variety of faiths and sects that a degree of uneasy tolerance now exists from expedient compromise; the minorities constitute a majority of opposition to each other."

"Could it be otherwise here? Could any one sect obtain a working majority at the polls and take over the country? Perhaps not--but a combination of a dynamic evangelist, television, enough money, and modern techniques of advertising and propaganda might make [earlier] efforts look like a corner store compared to Sears Roebuck. Throw in a depression for good measure, promise a material heaven here on earth, add a dash of anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Negroism, and a good large dose of anti-'furriners' in general and anti-intellectuals here at home and the result might be something quite frightening--particularly when one recalls that our voting system is such that a minority distributed as pluralities in enough states can constitute a working majority in Washington."

--from "Concerning Stories Never Written: Postscript"

in _Revolt in 2100_, (c)1953 by Robert A. Heinlein

Our reading selections for these upcoming meetings address Twain's fear. Will historians of our time or times following ever again write stories like these?

[NOTE concerning availability of the essay "Concerning Stories Never Written: Postscript" Revolt in 2100 and Methuselah's Children, were both recently reprinted and reissued in one volume by Baen--last winter-- and is readily available in paperback stock from the publisher, BUT check your bookstore to see whether it is on the shelves or needs to be ordered for you. We'll be reading all the stories from the rest of that volume in future weeks.]

Please post as many of your thoughts as possible about this defined topic before our meeting as a reply to this post to help make these meetings enjoyable and enlightening to all. Remember, the more pre-meeting posts we have, the better our discussions.

See you all a week from next Thursday and Saturday.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: "David M. Silver" agplusone@loop.com

Date: 7/28/2000 4:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time

AGplusone wrote:

[snip, snip, snip]

> Topic: The short story "Logic of Empire," the Afterward

> "Concerning Stories Never Written," and the novella "If This Goes On ..." from

> the Future History.

[snip, snip]

> Please post as many of your thoughts as possible about this defined topic

> before our meeting as a reply to this post to help make these meetings

> enjoyable and enlightening to all. Remember, the more pre-meeting posts we

> have, the better our discussions.

How do I nicely put this? Perhaps the fact this is only the second post in this thread demonstrates more graphically than anything else a point obvious to all. Chat co-hosts help us with the topics we discuss. Last meeting, this time last fortnight, with a co-host, we had more than 50 posts already made to spark discussion about "Gulf." We may not have exhaustively covered all possible points, but we ended up with 120 posts before we held those chat meetings. That made a very worthwhile discussion. It's not too hard to be a co-host for a story, or a theme. You simply post an expression of your thoughts, or propose an agenda, or points of view about the story or theme--it doesn't have to be profound or complex. Without a lead-off post, it falls on me to make one. I can. I have. I will, but after about three years, it gets old, and our reading group is entering its fourth year of doing this, even though we've only been here on AFH for about a year or so. In a week or so we may start a balloting on themes, stories, or topics we plan to discuss for the rest of the year. We're going to need volunteers to co-host those subjects. At some point even AGplusone gets tired of hearing about Heinlein according to AGplusone.

'Nuff said?

The next three posts in this thread will try to generate discussion on the readings set for this next week's meeting, now due to take place in five or seven days. Hope we see as many reply posts as we had last meeting and as many of you as possible at the meetings.

David M. Silver, aka AGplusone@aol.com

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: Gaeltach gaeltach@fan.net.au

Date: 7/29/2000 5:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time "David M. Silver" wrote:

> At some point even AGplusone gets tired of hearing about Heinlein according to AGplusone.

David, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say I admire your leadership and dedication to the Heinlein Reading Group. Any words you have to say about Mr Heinlein's stories or related matters is greatly appreciated, and I hope the burden that has rested on your shoulders for so long can be shared as much as possible. I would love to co-host, but put me down for one of the Juvies, or at least one of the stories I have had time to re-read recently. I only wish I had more time for reading and critical analysis, something I enjoy dearly, but unfortunately with business and single parent responsibilities I barely have time to keep up with the posts here at AFH (when I'm lucky enough to receive them all).

Anyway, I think you need a big pat on the back. There ya' go. Feel better? :-)

Sean

gaeltach@fan.net.au

***************

.... and now for something completely different:

Sir Isaac's voder did not work when he said "Dia sehneh wkro wton didred ovsc aasiris."

***************

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/29/2000 7:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Gaeltach wrote:

> "David M. Silver" wrote:

>

>

>

> > At some point even AGplusone gets tired of hearing about Heinlein according to AGplusone.

>

> David, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say I admire your leadership and dedication to the Heinlein Reading Group. Any words you have to say about Mr Heinlein's stories or related matters is greatly appreciated, and I hope the burden that has rested on your shoulders for so long can be shared as much as possible.

>

> Anyway, I think you need a big pat on the back. There ya' go. Feel better? :-)

Seconded over here......but I can see why David wants some help. I know not everyone here makes the chats but it doesn't stop you joining in the pre chat posts; the more input the better! The two stories scheduled next, plus the short article by Heinlein about the gap in between them, cover a pivotal point in the FH. Well worth reading and once read there's usually something to be said, or questions to be asked. It'd be great to see people's thoughts and no, this isn't a nag about staying on topic :-)

Jane

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: "David M. Silver" agplusone@loop.com

Date: 7/28/2000 4:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time

AGplusone wrote:

[all snipped]

"Logic of Empire" (novella, 1941; first published ASF magazine, collected in _The Green Hills of Earth_ (reissued Baen paper, 2000) and also available in a hardbound bookclub edition still in stock.

One advantage of reading the Future History in sequence is we take a close look at every work. "Logic of Empire" although described as "one of Heinlein's great early works" in James Gifford's RAH:ARC seems to me a bit of an orphan today. I don't know why. It shouldn't be. As Gifford points out, although many of Heinlein's works touch rather comprehensively on slavery, "Logic" is the only one that shows it from the inside. It's also precatory to _"If This Goes On ... "_, and is an archetypal "man who learns a lesson" story as Gifford points out. Yet in three years of chats we've never really taken this one on specifically, only mentioned it peripherally with other works. A couple points: historically, the citizenry of the United States, 1861 excepted, was never so close to a rebellion against established government as in the early 1930s; and it truly would have been a rebellion of the masses, not sectionalistic factions. Why? Rice bowl issues. Jobs, wages, hours, working conditions; but mostly lack of all the above.

It's obvious James is right, "Logic of Empire" takes on slavery from the inside; but it also takes on the entire concept of life-long toil at "honest work," defined somewhere else by a wise man as "a euphemism for underpaid bodily exertion, done standing up or on your knees, often in bad weather or other nasty circumstances, and frequently involving shovels, picks, hoes, assembly lines, tractors, and unsympathetic supervisors."

Do you agree or disagree with me that "Logic" can be applied to today's "interns" or "temporary employees" whether they work 'standing up or on their knees' or not? Do you know that for more than half the men born the year Robert Heinlein was born, including my father, their early fate wasn't twelve years of grammar and high school, followed by leisurely years of college. It was an indentured apprenticeship starting around age twelve to a tradesman, shop keeper, or farmer? This nation was built on the sweat of 'indentured' labor; and runaway apprentices and bond-servants started and maintained its revolution, explored its boundries, settled its states, and governed its populace for nearly two full centuries. Today, we think that's all gone. Look again. How long does a medical doctor intern spend working for stipend, sixteen and eighteen hours a week? Have you looked lately at what 'teaching assistants' make at universities? My father spent seven years apprenticed to a plumber, beginning in 1919, when he was twelve. How long does a physician spend apprenticed to his mentors, after completion of medical school? Try eight. Can you see other analogies, today? Look at the other 'interns' you've heard about. The ones who go to work for six months or a year or more for an actual nothing in wages to 'learn the job' after graduating college. Are we heading back towards indentures? What might "Logic" say about that? Now take a hard look at the 'temps' our lean, mean, down-sized corporations are employing. Ask Local 925, and others like it, what they're up to there.

Another thing: "Logic" is a archetypal Heinlein "man who learns a lesson" story, several times, as James points out. But Heinlein, as we all are learning, had a tendency to 'file the serial numbers off.' Where might the start of this story have come from? It's not Melville's Moby Dick, or Billy Budd; it's not Dana's Two Years Before the Mast; and it's not Kipling's Captains Courageous; but somewhere in the body of American or English Literature I think there's a story beginning very like it. Has anyone read a lot of Jack London, another writer who had an awful lot of nasty things to say about the "redemptive" nature of 'honest work?' Betcha we can find it. Any suggestions about this?

And there's much more to say about "Logic." Anyone have their own thoughts?

David M. Silver, aka AGplusone@aol.com

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Subject: Logic of Empire was Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/28/2000 11:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: <3981D3DD.4FE85911@netcom.ca>

"David M. Silver" wrote:

> But Heinlein, as we all are learning, had a tendency to 'file

> the serial numbers off.' Where might the start of this story have

> come from? It's not Melville's Moby Dick, or Billy Budd;

>it's not Dana's Two Years Before the Mast; and it's

> not Kipling's Captains Courageous; but somewhere in the

> body of American or English

> Literature I think there's a story beginning very like it.

Interesting you should mention Captains Courageous David; I think it does have some similarity to the LOE story myself. CC is about a young boy who falls overboard on a luxury cruise and is picked up by a fishing boat. He is forced to do gruelling physical work of a kind he has never experienced in his pampered, spoiled life, in exchange for food. He is on a ship that cannot turn round and return him to his parents and he learns many valuable lessons before being reinstated, a "new man" in his old life. All this is paralleled in LOE but the underlying sense of unfairness is missing of course; his life has been saved by the people he has to work for and he is in no sense a slave. One book that I did think of after reading LOE was Farnham's Freehold; it seems to me that both Wingate and Farnham face similar temptations and problems. This is particularly noticeable in the discussions of the habit forming alcoholic drink that makes life bearable at the cost of the ability to think clearly and retain the drive to free oneself. For Wingate it is rhira, for Hugh it is the ironically named "Happiness". Wingate realises early on that he has to have rhira in order to sleep; even though it costs him half a day's pay but he has enough determination to resolve to only drink the rhira before bedtime and keep a clear head in order to plan his escape. He reminds himself that, "No slave is ever freed, save he free himself." LOE is one story that I haven't read very often; I think the downbeat ending may be responsible for that; it's quite a depressing story and there is no tidy resolution. The young girl who falls in love with Wingate is sent to Earth but there is no glittering future for her; certainly not with Wingate. Her father, who is a sympathetic character in spite of being cast in a "black hat" role of plantation owner, is left bereft of the one thing that made his life on Venus pleasant and Wingate discovers that his book and experiences aren't even enough of a pebble to cause a ripple of outrage, never mind a flood. Finally, we have the ominous figure of Scudder, looming up on the horizon. Hazel might see him as a potential saviour but we know that far from helping the workers on Venus, Scudder will effectively isolate them and doom them to a lifetime away from the cool breezes and blue skies of Earth. It's interesting that the natives in this story are almost identical to those in Space Cadet; obviously SC fits into the FH with the link to Long Watch but it's hard to see the Patrol in the world of Coventry and MC. Oh well......the Stories Never Written article hints pretty broadly that Heinlein wasn't too keen on the FH tying him down.....

Heinlein really rammed home the links with the slavery in the American South but he offered no prospect of relief, no chance for freedom. Could this be because the situations _weren't _ so similar? The chance to go home at the end of 6 years was illusion rather than reality for the most part but it did exist; is this enough of a loophole, added to the fact that most of the people entered into the contract of their own volition to make the Venus set up "fair"? Would Wingate have stood a chance of telling it as it was and getting changes made once he returned home even if he had been a gifted writer?

Jane

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Subject: Re: Logic of Empire was Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: James Gifford jgifford@rcsis.com

Date: 7/28/2000 12:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time

ddavitt wrote:

> LOE is one story that I haven't read very often; I think the downbeat ending may be responsible for that; it's quite a depressing story and there is no tidy resolution.>

G'damn, Jane, are you and the baby hooked in parallel and multiprocessing this stuff? Your recent posts, especially this one, have been astonishingly insightful and entertaining... and for jaded old me, it's a good week when someone points up a minor connection between stories I hadn't noticed.

Keep it up.

-- | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com | | "NitroPress" on AIM - See you at ChiCon 2000! | | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |

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Subject: Re: Logic of Empire was Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/28/2000 2:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time

James Gifford wrote:

> Your recent posts, especially this one, have

> been astonishingly insightful and entertaining... and for jaded old me,

> it's a good week when someone points up a minor connection between

> stories I hadn't noticed.

>

> Keep it up.

Thanks Jim; at the moment I'm feeling quite the opposite; clumsy, indecisive and tired so it's nice to get a pat on the back My latest was to decide to tidy up a cupboard....I removed four paint tins, stacked them, staggered toward the basement door and watched in horror as the top can fell, hit the ground, top came off ( guess who doesn't put tops back on things?) and paint splattered from one end of the (carpeted) hall to the other, all up the wall, inches thick.....A friend with a carpet steamer came to the rescue but if it hadn't been water soluble I'd have been in big trouble....

Anyway, enough about me

I think the stories of Wingate and Farnham have other similarities; if you're looking for connections how about Kitten and Annek? Both young, blonde and innocent, both help the man they feel some form of love or affection for, both betray those in authority over them....both end up shipped away from their homes to an unfamiliar place. Also, it could be argued that both men are ultimately rescued and returned to their point of origin by outside forces; Ponse and Sam's sister.

Wingate did manage to join the fugitives though; that was an interesting interlude. If he'd stayed there, using his technical expertise to help out and contributing to the Venusian equivalent of the Underground Railroad would it have been a stronger, more positive ending? He is tempted, having been there long enough to recognise that his life on Earth was an, "empty, sterile, bunkum-fed life" but in the end the home sickness wins out.

I also felt that there were some intriguing hints about the set up in the small town that could be linked to MIAHM; both colonies made up of the "scum of Earth" and yet developed into an "integrated" society. The way they dealt with the issue of three men to one women is a case in point. On Luna this resulted in women being placed on a pedestal, given full choice of who they would live with. On Venus...well, it wasn't spelled out but it seemed a little less clear cut;

"The great shortage of women in the community ( men outnumbered them three to one) caused incidents which more than anything else required the decisions of the Governor. Here, Wingate was forced to admit, was a situation in which traditional custom would have been nothing but a source of trouble; he admired the shrewd common sense and understanding of human nature with which the Governor sorted out conflicting strong human passions and suggested _modus operandi_ for getting along together."

I assume 'traditional custom' would be a couple getting married; the alternatives would at best seem to be plural marriages or casual liaisons; quite daring for the time of writing. Any significance in Sam Houston Jones's name btw?

Jane

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Subject: Logic of Empire

From: merfilly8@aol.com (Stephanie Vickers)

Date: 8/2/2000 5:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Let's see...this is only my second read, so bear with.

I'm thinking the majority of the Venusian contractees are from the "poor, huddled masses", which made me think of the rhira in another sense. "It produces, not drunkeness, but lightness of heart, freedom from worry, and without it he could not get to sleep."

If something like this is so acceptable to them, granted under very harsh circumstances, I think I can begin to see why Scudder rose so quickly and so strongly. Because what rhira is providing on Venus is exactly what religion can offer a person. Lightness of heart in the face of adversity due to knowing there is another, better place. Freedom from worry, because you have to live by a code that defines right and wrong. And the peace of sleep after your bedtime prayers, knowing you've unburdened your sins of the day.

I started thinking that before I even got to the mention of Scudder, which seemed to confirm it to me. Because I think Scudder's rise had to have been from the "poor, huddled masses" turning to him for solace from their existences.

Filly

http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly8/myhomepage

"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry."

--Mark Twain

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Subject: Re: Logic of Empire

From: sonofwashu@aol.com (SonofWashu)

Date: 8/2/2000 8:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>I think Scudder's rise had to have been

>from the "poor, huddled masses" turning to him for solace from their

>existences.

Ain't that generally the way of religious movements (properly funded and silently approved, of course)? There's also the frightening (well, to most, anyway) prospect of how fast technology and awareness of the universe was expanding in Future times. The average person was confronted with the possibility and practicality space-travel and other important scientific developments, without the glorious conceit of being the only thinking lifeform being as concrete as it is for folks here in the real world (i.e. world before the Future History diverges massively). People are fragile, and the fundamental keystone of Scudder's church and many like it, is that the body of faithful are superior to all and each, thus giving them a quick and easy way to dismiss and/or destroy everything that they are uncomfortable with otherwise, and still feel okeh wit doing so. Religion often means doing the immoral and being holy for it, this immensely so in the hyped and repressive way proselytised by Scudder.

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Subject: Re: Logic of Empire

From: Ogden Johnson III ojiii@home.com

Date: 8/2/2000 4:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time

On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:48:01 -0400, ddavitt wrote:

>Mrs Biggs leaves Scudder all her millions and he sets up a TV station.

This is interesting; at the time of the original stories this wouldn't have been likely; TV was in it's infancy. Obviously in the gap between them and SNW Heinlein saw how TV could be a powerful tool for someone like Scudder. Without TV would he have been able to reach so many so fast I wonder?>

Before the TV evangelists, there were radio evangelists aplenty. In fact, they made the move to TV faster than many of the radio drama programs. TV evangelists have been a mainstay of TV since it was spreading city by city.

OJ III

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Subject: Re: Logic of Empire

From: "labert" labertspam@fast.net

Date: 8/3/2000 11:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Stephanie Vickers wrote in message news:20000802080903.09515.00000071@ng-cr1.aol.com...

> Let's see...this is only my second read, so bear with.

>

> I'm thinking the majority of the Venusian contractees are from the "poor,

> huddled masses", which made me think of the rhira in another sense. "It

> produces, not drunkeness, but lightness of heart, freedom from worry, and

> without it he could not get to sleep."

>

> If something like this is so acceptable to them, granted under very harsh

> circumstances, I think I can begin to see why Scudder rose so quickly and

>so strongly.

snip

Filly

A valid point, Filly, though I wonder if that ability to accept that which provides easy relief is any more characterisitic of the society that brought Scudder than of any human society throughout history. We've always enjoyed our superstitions, because their explanations, however easy or wrong. We've also always enjoyed our narcotics, our intoxicants, even when in the end, the "lightness of heart" no longer has the power it had.

Perhaps rather than being symptoms of the society RAH was postulating, he was seeing them as characteristics of any society. To me, this is precisely what makes the tendency so damned dangerous.

labert

--

"Nothing is the reason we are here, oh nothin at all. . ."

- Big Head Todd and the Monsters: "Circle"

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: "David M. Silver" agplusone@loop.com

Date: 7/28/2000 4:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time

AGplusone wrote:

[all snipped]

"Concerning Stories Never Written: Postscript"

I hope you've all taken the trouble to obtain a new copy of Revolt in 2100, now combined in print with a new issue of Methuselah's Children. We'll be reading the rest of the Revolt volume and later one in a couple months for certain.

You won't find this epilogue in The Past Through Tomorrow, and it's one of Heinlein's most important and well worth having.

There were three stories in the Future History never written (actually: probably five) discussed in this essay. "The Sound of His Wings," "Eclipse," and "The Stone Pillow" are the three the essay describes and explains why they probably never will be written ["Word Edgewise" and "Fire Down Below" are the two that slipped away through the cracks.]

"The Sound of His Wings" would have described the rise of the First Prophet, Nehemiah Scudder. "Eclipse" was to detail the fall of the U.S. into theocracy. "The Stone Pillow" was to tell the early story of the resistance movements later detailed in "'If This Goes On...'"

Instead of these, in later writings we got Digby and Foster in Stranger In A Strange Land, we got Alex Hergenshimer's Churches United for Decency in Job: A Comedy of Justice, and we got two juvenile novels (Red Planet and Between Planets), one 1947 short story, "Free Men," and one adult novel, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, covering revolutions, none of which, except "Free Men" really describe the harsh deadly time-consuming reality of building a revolution; and of course we have the rewritten "'If This Goes On'..." the real climax of the Future History in my view. Heinlein may have indeed hated Scudder too much to write about him; but I suggest to you writing the history of a successful resistance movement culminating in revolution, without a deus ex machina to depend upon, could occupy more than just one novel.

Consider this: lodges of freemasons in the Philippines began talking 'libery, equality, and brotherhood' around 1860, when Filipinos were first allowed to join their European brethern. They thereafter conducted several unsucessful rebellions against Spain through 1898, unsuccessful even though a harsher offshot of the freemasons, the Katipunan lodges formed from within those lodges for the express purpose of rebellion, existed from the 1880 period onward. When Dewey intervened, all seemed successful, but the Treaty of Paris selling the Islands to become part of the U.S.'s Manifest Destiny put an end to that hope. The rebellion continued, the Katipunan going to further extremes to ensure loyalty to the rebellion (lots of "blood on the tiles"), unsuccessfully until 1903 when Teddy Roosevelt unilaterally declared the hostilities over--anything following 1903 was deemed merely 'moro bandits.' Guerrilla warfare actually continued well into the 1920s; and one reason why when MacArthur in 1944 called for the Filipinos to rise and strike they did as well as they did was ... a lot of those folk had never wholly come down from the hills even after the 1920s. The legacy of guerrilla warfare to resolve differences continues to haunt the Filipino Republic today. BTW, you didn't think Heinlein invented the role of freemasons in rebellions did you? Franklin and Washington weren't the only 'fathers of their country' that came out of those lodges. Can you name others?

What would you speculate Heinlein might write in these three stories, and the two others, were he able and willing to write them today?

David M. Silver, aka AGplusone@aol.com

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: "David M. Silver" agplusone@loop.com

Date: 7/28/2000 4:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time

AGplusone wrote:

[snipped]

"'If This Goes On' ..." (1940, rewritten and expanded for inclusion in Revolt in 2100, 1953). This is supposed to be everyone's favorite of the early novella.

Lemme see if I can start some trouble in just two sentences, to demonstrate how easy it may be to start a thread as a co-host.

Reading ITGO this time through I've noticed one thing: the pedestal treatment of the women. Do you think this was a typical 1940 chauvinistic 33-year-old male author ("women and children first") or did he have another reason for writing of their treatment this way?

David M. Silver, aka AGplusone@aol.com

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Subject: ITGO was; Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/28/2000 6:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time

"David M. Silver" wrote:

> Reading ITGO this time through I've noticed one thing: the pedestal treatment of the women. Do you think this was a typical 1940 chauvinistic 33-year-old male author ("women and children first") or did he have another reason for writing of their treatment this way?

>

I'm not sure they were so treated David; John Lyle might have this attitude but it's certain the Prophet didn't. Maybe Lyle's innocence and religious fervour made him see women as objects of veneration ( and fear) but I don't see that this was widespread. Zeb seems to be more the norm. In fact, I would imagine that the status of women in a theocracy would be more akin to that in "Orphans"; second class citizens, using lots of Biblical quotations to back it up.

Jane

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Subject: Re: ITGO was; Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone)

Date: 7/29/2000 10:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Jane Davitt replied:

>"David M. Silver" wrote:

>

>> Reading ITGO this time through I've noticed one thing: the pedestal treatment of the women.

>I'm not sure they were so treated David; John Lyle might have this attitude

>but it's certain the Prophet didn't. Maybe Lyle's innocence and religious fervour made him see women as objects of veneration ( and fear) but I don't see that this was widespread. Zeb seems to be more the norm. In fact, I would imagine that the status of women in a theocracy would be more akin to that in "Orphans"; second class citizens, using lots of Biblical quotations to back it up.>

But isn't that 'difference' merely the flip-side of the same coin, Jane? Objects placed on pedestals are possessions, to be used, used up, and then replaced with fresh models when one becomes jaded to their beauties.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

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Subject: Re: ITGO was; Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/29/2000 10:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time

AGplusone wrote:

> Jane Davitt replied:

>

> >"David M. Silver" wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> Reading ITGO this time through I've noticed one thing: the pedestal

> treatment

> >of the women.

>

> >I'm not sure they were so treated David;

> >snip

> >In fact, I would imagine that the status of women in a theocracy would be

> >more akin to that in

> >"Orphans"; second class citizens, using lots of Biblical quotations to back

> >it up.

>

> But isn't that 'difference' merely the flip-side of the same coin, Jane?

> Objects placed on pedestals are possessions, to be used, used up, and then

> replaced with fresh models when one becomes jaded to their beauties.

Maybe; but I just read ITGO today and to be honest I can't find any mention of how women are treated or regarded from the POV of anyone other than John and Zeb; mostly John. I contend that he is not enough to extrapolate from. My suggestion about second class citizens was a guess; now I've read it again I don't think there's enough data to decide. Certainly within the Cabal they seem to be treated as equals. They are placed on the field of battle to fight; some very young as in the case of the sensitives.

What particular bits were you thinking of to back up the pedestal/possession idea?

Jane

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Subject: Re: ITGO was; Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 7/29/2000 10:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Maybe Lyle's innocence and religious fervour made him see women as objects

>of veneration ( and fear) but I don't see that this was widespread.

I think this has something to do with John Lyle's state of development at the time, as well as his innate character. I noticed that there is an entire subplot about John Lyle's moral development in the 1953 (book) version of ITGO that was not in the magazine version, including the crucial scene at the pool. What happens there, without being specifically talked about, is that John Lyle gets "connected" into the sexual circuits of the world, whereas the light was off before. In the magazine version, there is a "Prolog at the End" in which John Lyle marries Sister Judith and goes off to be a textiles drummer and live in a white picket fence. In the book version when the light goes on he sees Magdalene as his mate, so Judith is gotten rid of offstage.

The other major idea difference between the two versions is that in one line of the magazine version he has the population of the U.S. hypno-conditioned into accepting the new regime, whereas there is a dramatic debate in the book version. Panshin thinks having the "angry Mark Twain" character fall over dead is a moment of false emotion -- and it may have been a bit "over the top" (of course, he does this again in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress), but I think he comes down on the right side in the final version. I don't think this was so much a "change of heart" on Heinlein's part as that in the technocratic context of 1939 he thought, "well, of course, there'll have to be conditioning in order for this to work" and wrote it in in one line, but by 1953 he realized it's inconsistent with the goals of the Cabal to liberate people, so he showed the argument why it wasn't. Just my impression.

Bill

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Subject: Re: ITGO was; Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: David Wright dwrighsr@alltel.net

Date: 7/29/2000 1:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time

In article <39831CD3.8FFB0E4D@netcom.ca>, ddavitt

wrote:

> BPRAL22169 wrote:

(snip)

> I definitely agree that the version where the people are given

> freedom of choice is

> both morally preferable and more in keeping with the ideals of the

> Cabal.

I was really shocked when I read that the first version didn't have this choice. That would have, it seems to me, really destroyed much of the underpinnings of 'Coventry'. Wasn't that written earlier than 1953?

>I've never quite understood why Winters has to die though; I even

> thought he'd been assassinated the first time I read it IIRC.

Just seems to add to the emphasis, but necessary? I don't know.

> Interesting that he ends up with Judith in the original version

> too; I'd like to

> read that. Without reading it I have a feeling that I prefer the

> book version;

> Judith is a bit of a wimp and Maggie is far better for John as he

> has become by the

> end of the story.

Agreed. Maggie far outshines Judith.

> Couple of points; what exactly does "Non Sibi, Sed Dei" mean? I

> tried looking it up

> but not much luck; Not man but God?

'Not Self, but God' I believe.

> Also, in the racist, intolerant society of the Prophet why is

> there a Sanctuary gate at all

You have to give them the appearance of safety, even though there really is none. :) Gives everyone a nice rationalization.

>and why is someone half Scottish and half Cherokee

> accepted in the elite forces of the Angels?

outside of the 'pariahs', presumably Jews, there doesn't seem to be any evidence one way or the other about other forms of racism. Incidentally, there were a lot of Cherokee-Scottish marriages here in Georgia during the late 1700s and early 1800s. I live about a half-mile from the 'Chief Vann' house built in 1804. Chief Joseph Vann was the product of one such marriage and owned all of the land around here. It is an amazingly well-constructed brick house. His land was all taken away by the State of Georgia due to a law they passed which prohibited Indians from employing any white persons and given to cronies of the then Governor. Chief Joseph was part of the relocation to Oklahoma where he died in a knife fight.

(snip)

David

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Subject: Re: ITGO was; Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/29/2000 2:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time

David Wright wrote:

> >and why is someone half Scottish and half Cherokee

> > accepted in the

> > elite forces of the Angels?

>

> outside of the 'pariahs', presumably Jews, there doesn't seem to be any

> evidence one way or the other about other forms of racism.

>

> David

But by the time of ITGO the US had been isolated for many decades; how could someone like Grace of God Bearpaw have been in the US at all? The British were considered to be illiterate baby eating monsters remember :-) If he was half Scottish, half Cherokee then one of his parents must have been a recent immigrant. The entry requirements for the Angels were strict; I'm surprised anyone got in who didn't fit the WASP like ideals that Scudderites favoured. It is mentioned that Catholics are part of the outside groups who help the Cabal; I imagine they are pariahs too. The only explanation I can think of is that it's a slightly inaccurate description and that the Scottish bit refers to an ancestor rather than an actual mother or father.

Jane

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: "labert" labertspam@fast.net

Date: 7/28/2000 5:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time

AGplusone wrote

snip

" Perhaps not--but a combination of a

> dynamic evangelist, television, enough money, and modern techniques of

> advertising and propaganda might make [earlier] efforts look like a corner

> store compared to Sears Roebuck. Throw in a depression for good measure,

> promise a material heaven here on earth, add a dash of anti-Semitism,

> anti-Catholicism, anti-Negroism, and a good large dose of anti-'furriners'

>in general and anti-intellectuals here at home and the result might be

>something quite frightening--particularly when one recalls that our voting >system is such that a minority distributed as pluralities in enough states

>can constitute a working majority in Washington."

> --from "Concerning Stories Never Written: Postscript"

> in _Revolt in 2100_, (c)1953 by Robert A. Heinlein

While I can't exactly address whether or not writers will continue to write such stories, perhaps they should. Consider the rise of renewed interest in spirituality since the beginning of the 80's, the power of such groups as the Christian Coalition, Falwell's bunch, and the "Right to Life" wing. A part of all this was the grass roots movement to takeover local school boards in order to press religious agendas, leading to such wonders of modern intellectual prowess as the Kansas decision we all lamented last year to remove evolution from the required subjects.

Religion has run as an undercurrent for political acceptability for as long as the US has been around. Prohibition (of alcohol) was a religious movement; Kennedy was considered unelectable because he was Catholic; Congress made religion a national motto by putting "God" on our money, and courts have attempted to put their religion's rules up on their walls in direct contradiction to the nation's rules. The movement to outlaw a woman's right to reproductive freedom is specifically an attempt to enforce one religious perspective upon all people, regardless of whether or not those people believe in that religion or its precepts.

At the moment, a large portion of G W Bush's support (in terms of votes, if not money) comes from the remnants of the Christian Coalition, and the power of that support was enough to sway his choice of running mates. Tom Ridge (Pennsylvania governor) was set aside because of his pro-choice stance.

If people aren't fearful of religious control of public policy, it's because their beliefs run in line with the impetus, and therefore they believe its only "right" that such rules be enforced, and damn the poor sinner who is so foolish as to disagree. Or, they aren't paying attention.

Look at that quote again: "anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Negroism, and a good large dose of anti-'furriners' in general and anti-intellectuals here at home;" sounds like America to me. I don't necessarily see the economically turbulent 70's as entirely unlike the depression RAH suggested as a catalyst, and the 80's saw the beginnings of religious rising influence in politics.

A new Scudder might not need to set aside the constitution, given enough support for forcing religious principles down the throats of Americans regardless of their individual beliefs. Stack the Supreme Court well enough, and any ol' silly law can be declared constitutional.

ITGO has always scared the crap out of me, as America has within it the germ of such a theocracy. Hell, even Bill Clinton told me I ought to pray after the bombing in Oklahoma City.

Don't we already live in a theocracy of sorts?

labert

-- "Nothing is the reason we are here, oh nothin at all. . ." - Big Head Todd and the Monsters: "Circle"

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: merfilly8@aol.com (Stephanie Vickers)

Date: 7/31/2000 5:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time

I don't have the afterward for Stories never written! AUGHH! My Past Through Tomorrow and the copy of TGHOE doesn't have it unless I glanced past it!

Filly >http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly8/myhomepage "Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry."

--Mark Twain

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 7/31/2000 7:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time

I think it's in Revolt in 2100.

Speaking of which, does anybody have any idea why it's 2100? The revolution takes place in about 2075.

Bill

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: merfilly8@aol.com (Stephanie Vickers)

Date: 7/31/2000 5:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>I think it's in Revolt in 2100.

>

>Speaking of which, does anybody have any idea why it's 2100? The revolution

>takes place in about 2075.

Because _Revolt in 2075_ just isn't catchy enough!

Seriously, was likely supposed to be 21st Century rather than 2100. A certain McCaffrey title went from _Get of the Unicorn_ to Get Off the Unicorn_ because it looked better and didn't need explanation. Perhaps a similar principle at work here?

Filly >http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly8/myhomepage

"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry."

--Mark Twain

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Three Off-topic posts snipped

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: Ogden Johnson III ojiii@home.com

Date: 7/31/2000 4:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time

On 31 Jul 2000 14:30:21 GMT, bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>I think it's in Revolt in 2100.

>

>Speaking of which, does anybody have any idea why it's 2100? The revolution

>takes place in about 2075.

Typical bureaucracy. The Navy started preliminary design on the SSN-21 [now the three-sub SEAWOLF class] somewhere around the mid-70s, a full 25 years or so before the *dawn* of the 21st Century.

Alternative suggestion. Blame it on Campbell. Title tinkering.

Third alternative. Round numbers sound better.

Basic fact - damfino.

OJ III

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 8/1/2000 6:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time

> Blame it on Campbell. Title tinkering.

Well, we can blame it on Campbell, but this was 1953 and Shasta, and Campbell didn't have his oar in this one.

but we can blame it on him, sure!

Bill

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: Ogden Johnson III ojiii@home.com

Date: 8/1/2000 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time

On 02 Aug 2000 01:36:28 GMT, bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>> Blame it on Campbell. Title tinkering.

>Well, we can blame it on Campbell, but this was 1953 and Shasta, and Campbell didn't have his oar in this one.

>

>but we can blame it on him, sure!

That's an editor's job, take the blame whether you earned it or not. ;->

OJ III

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: William Dennis williamdennis@flink.com

Date: 8/1/2000 8:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Ogden Johnson III wrote:

>

> On 02 Aug 2000 01:36:28 GMT, bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>

> >> Blame it on Campbell. Title tinkering.

>

> >Well, we can blame it on Campbell, but this was 1953 and Shasta, and Campbell didn't have his oar in this one.

> >

> >but we can blame it on him, sure!

>

> That's an editor's job, take the blame whether you earned it or not.

> ;->

>

> OJ III

Edna Buchannan's (sp) three rules for new reporters:

1. Never trust an editor.

2. Never trust an editor.

3. Never trust an editor.

--

William Dennis II

Are you a Republican? Democrat? You sure?

Take the World's Smallest Political Quiz to find out:

http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml

For information about the Libertarian Party, go to:

http://www.lp.orghttp

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom.

I am free, no matter what rules surround me.

If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them;

if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.

I am free because I know that

I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

--- Professor Bernardo de la Paz

Robert A. Heinlein's The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: Richard Bensam rabensam@earthlink.net

Date: 7/31/2000 7:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:30:21 -0400,

BPRAL22169 wrote (in message <20000731103021.06840.00001008@ng-cl1.aol.com>):

> I think it's in Revolt in 2100.

>

> Speaking of which, does anybody have any idea why it's 2100? The revolution takes place in about 2075.

2072. The Covenant was signed in 2075.

Well, presumably the real answer is that someone decided "2100" would make a catchier number for the book title. But if you'll entertain a more whimsical theory, purely in a spirit of fun...the events of "Coventry" appear to take place sometime in the first three decades of the 2100s, and that story also has a theme of "revolt" in that David MacKinnon rebels against his ordered society while the plot is further driven by a planned uprising by the residents of Coventry. So one might consider that the book title refers to this story instead. If one were the sort of person who, like me, worries about things like this.

Richard

-- http:http://home.earthlink.net/~rabensam/

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

Date: 7/31/2000 5:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Stephanie Vickers wrote:

> I don't have the afterward for Stories never written! AUGHH! My Past Through

> Tomorrow and the copy of TGHOE doesn't have it unless I glanced past it!

No, it's not in those books; you didn't miss it. It's only about three or four pages long Filly and David did quote some of the important bits of it in his original post; don't panic! I don't have it either but I nipped into Chapters and read it from the new edition of Revolt in 2100 ( the one with MC in it). I can't afford to buy it just for the sake of those 4 pages :-(

Basically Heinlein is explaining why he never wrote the stories ( too depressing and he hated Scudder so much he couldn't bear to write of his triumph) and thus why there was such a gap between the end of Logic of Empire and the start of ITGO. He gives a few details of what the stories he didn't write would have been about.

Jane

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: keris remNOreSPAM@keris.demon.co.uk.invalid

Date: 7/31/2000 6:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time

ddavitt wrote:

>No, it's not in those books; you didn't miss it. It's only

>about three or four pages long Filly and David did quote some

>of the important bits of it in his original post; don't panic!

>I don't have it either but I nipped into Chapters and read it

>from the new edition of Revolt in 2100 ( the one with MC in

>it).

MC? Ealing Broadway (and are we allowing bus routes?)...

>I can't afford to buy it just for the sake of those 4 >pages :-(

Hmm, I probably will because my copies are getting a little frail about the spine (so am I!).

>Basically Heinlein is explaining why he never wrote the stories

>( too depressing and he hated Scudder so much he couldn't bear

>to write of his triumph) and thus why there was such a gap

>between the end of Logic of Empire and the start of ITGO. He

>gives a few details of what the stories he didn't write would

>have been about.

There is one thing worse than not having all of the stories, and that's being told what the other stories would have been...

(And no, I don't want some other author to write them and claim they are "what Heinlein would have written"...)

Chris C

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Two Off-topic posts snipped

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: Ogden Johnson III ojiii@home.com

Date: 8/1/2000 4:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time

On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 01:32:26 -0700, keris wrote:

>So where do I get the Heinlein Journal? I know it was mentioned

>somewhere but I unremember where...

Ask, and ye shall receive:

From the Indicta;

"The Heinlein Journal is issued semi-annually, in July and January. Edited and published by Bill Patterson, 602 West Bennet Drive, Glendora, CA 91471

Subscription Rates: $7.50 per issue, $15.00 per year, payable in U.S. funds; Rates outside the United States: $10.00 per issue, $20.00 per year."

Back issues 1-5 were $5.00 per, $25.00 total. I went for that, plus a subscription for 6 and 7 for $15.00 - total of $40.00. Worth every penny and more.

BPRAL's email addy is on my work computer, I don't have it here, so you'll have to grab it off one of his posts here. If you're interested in the back issues 1-5, you'll need a price from him - that $5 was probably the within US price.

OJ III

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Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Meeting Notice, 8-3 & 5-2000

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 8/2/2000 7:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>BPRAL's email addy is on my work computer, I don't have it here, so

>you'll have to grab it off one of his posts here.

And here it is. The cost of the issues 1-5 is $25; and I will simply add postage I actually pay to get it to you, less $6 (the postage allowance written into the subscription rate)

Bill

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Nine Off Topic Posts snipped

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And let's run this PSA Again: THE HEINLEIN SOCIETY

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: The Heinlein Society

From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

Date: 7/23/2000 10:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time

OK -- here's the short explanation given at the AIM meeting this past Saturday. Laurie or Tawn may want to add other comments:

OK -- I'll try to keep this short. Tawn3 and Fldax and I -- and others -- are in the process of getting the paperwork in order to incorporate The Heinlein Society. An introductory letter will go out shortly inviting memberships and participation and general input.

Merfilly8: kewl

BPRAL22169: The website is up -- www.heinleinsociety.com. But it's just an "under construction" page with an e-mail link to Laurie (Fldax) Laurie is going to be the Administrator of the Society. Without her, this project would still be in limbo. And Tawn will be contacting all the newsgroups and sites in the Heinlein pseudo-ring to get us listed.

KultsiKN: Laurie who? Pls, give more

BPRAL22169: Laurie McDonald -- fldax on AIM.

AGplusone: FldAx=Laurie

BPRAL22169: There isn't a lot more -- what specifically would you care to hear about?

BPRAL22169: Or it may be MacDonald; I forget.

SageMerlin: This is becoming a real community. Perhaps it would be interesting to focus some of our discussions on H's theories of community, the group processes that he illustrates, instead of focusing so much on the individual.

BPRAL22169: Very good idea.

AGplusone: Do you have any links handy to sites of the Shavians, Wellsians, Twainians, etc., Bill

BPRAL22169: Laurie has those links; why don't we ask her to post them on afh next time she shows up. Right now she is working the Comicon in San Diego -- expect the facility to be absolutely plastered with Heinlein Society flyers.

AGplusone: I keep wanting to ask ... any relationship to Leslyn ... but that's unlikely I know.

AGplusone: That's great!

BPRAL22169: We've actually had a presence for two weeks now -- Tawn Johnson worked the Minicon last weekend.

Merfilly8: I'd have hit Heroes Con in June....

* * *

OK -- the very short version is the Heinlein Society is formed for one major purpose, which is the motto of the Society: Pay it Forward. We could never possibly repay RAH for all the good we've gotten from him, but what he preferred was that it be paid forward.

This should be reflected in a lot of different projects. For example, the Society will sponsor blood drives, and we will make a special effort to get and keep his books in libraries and encourage people -- especially kids -- to read them. Many other projects have been suggested, and your suggestions for projects are solicited. In addition, the Society will maintain a website and an internet presence. To support the various activities of the Society (generally speaking the Society will limit its participation to seed capital, with projects raising their ongoing funding on an ad hoc basis), membership dues will be $35 for a participating membership and $15 for a sustaining or supporting membership. And thats alls I knows.

Bill

End of alt.fan.heinlein Pre-Chat Posts

Go To Beginning Pre-Chat Postings

Beginning of Chat Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

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Merfilly8 has entered the room.

Major oz has entered the room.

Merfilly8: hey Oz

Major oz: hello, all

Merfilly8: looks like a slow start tonight

Major oz: I have C-SPAN on while we talk

Major oz: Also, I am 1500 miles from home, in PA -- home of my brother.

Merfilly8: so we're in the same time zone tonight

Merfilly8: something hot in the world?

Major oz: But I am bright eyed and bushy tailed

Major oz: Hot ?

Merfilly8: As in breaking current event?

Merfilly8: we have no tv in my house, and rarely listen to any news. I catch it a bit on AOL

Major oz: GEE DUBYA is about to be officially designated..........

Major oz: The convention -- right here in Philly -- winds up tonight

Merfilly8: I heard something on that going to work this morn

Major oz: I've been chewing out my neices all week for not paying attention. Am I going to have to do the same with You?

Major oz: :)

ddavitt has entered the room.

Merfilly8: Sure...if you have the time to savor it :)

ddavitt: Hi everyone

Merfilly8: Hey there lady!

Major oz: OOOOOOOOOOHHHHH

Merfilly8: j/k

Major oz: yo, Jane

ddavitt: How's things?

Major oz: All right with the world.

Merfilly8: good...didn't finish my re-read of ITGO, so I'm slow on the uptake tonight

Major oz: I haven't re-read any of them, as I have been here since before the subject was determined.

ddavitt: Amazing how much you can remember....and forget.

Major oz: I have been appointed as co-host with Bill -- I hope he read them

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

Merfilly8: ITGO just isn't my type of story. LoE was a better read this time though

ddavitt: Hi Bill

Merfilly8: hey Bill

Major oz: whew.............glad you are here, Bill

Merfilly8: Oz was on a hook, Bill

BPRAL22169: Hi - I'm setting up, so I'll be right with you.

ddavitt: It's gone all quiet....

Merfilly8: sorry. Looking at Gore's prospective running mates

Major oz: how?

BPRAL22169: it'll be a second -- trying to get two new people invited in, but they aren't on AIM yet. /ga

ddavitt: Off you go Oz :-)

Major oz: .......yeah, right.......

SAcademy has entered the room.

Merfilly8: on aol, under news/politics

Major oz: Give me the titles again, please

ddavitt: Logic of Empire

ddavitt: If this Goes On

Reilloc has entered the room.

Major oz: Evening, young lady

ddavitt: Stories Never Written

ddavitt: Hi!

SAcademy: Good evening

Reilloc: Evening...at least here.

Merfilly8: good eve

Major oz: .......story line........?

GHMyst has entered the room.

ddavitt: How do you mean story line?

BPRAL22169: Can somebody else invite "ElizabethTee" in -- my invitation seems to be hung up.

GHMyst: Good evening, all

labert8 has entered the room.

ddavitt: I have sent an invite

BPRAL22169: Dr. W -- I just finished re-reading ITGO. I can't remember from our prior talks -- was the Battle Tracker a possibility for your "mystery device"?

Elizabeth Tee has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Labert

BPRAL22169: Thanks, Jane.

Major oz: I'm an old guy and have forgotten.......as I said earlier, I didn't get what the subjects were until after I left home to be here (1500 miles away)

labert8: hello everyone

Merfilly8: hi all

Elizabeth Tee: Hello everybody

GHMyst: Hello, Bill

Major oz: Good Evening, one and all.

ddavitt: It gets like the Waltons at the start and finish of the chats:-)

RMLWJ1 has entered the room.

RMLWJ1: Evening, folks.

PashaMor has entered the room.

Major oz: AGPlusOne had pressing family concerns tonight.

Merfilly8: I threw invites to two from weeks prior...and both accepted!

Major oz: so........Bill and I have been ordered, by Zim, to step in

PashaMor: hi everybody

ddavitt: Hi

Merfilly8: nothing wrong, is there, Oz?

PashaMor: hi jane

ddavitt: Not as many posts this time....

PashaMor: brb

Major oz: Bill read them -- I didn't

labert8: I managed a few, out of guilt. :-)

GHMyst: Am I getting through OK?

Merfilly8: I only got halfway thru ITGO this time...read it last year early on for the first time, so I'll be sketchy

Major oz: No, but thanx, Filly. I'm here to help my brother recuperate from rejection of a transplanted lung.

ddavitt: Yes; I see you

Major oz: He is doing much better.

BPRAL22169: Well, I say we've got enough people here to get started. Let's take a poll at first, who has not read "Logic of Empire"?

ddavitt: Good!

Merfilly8: Glad to hear it.

Merfilly8: I read it!

ddavitt: Me too!

Elizabeth Tee: Read it.

Major oz: Good

Reilloc: I've read it but not recently.

Merfilly8: <---is slightly hyper

GHMyst: OK

RMLWJ1: Been quite a while for me.

labert8: silly rabbit, everyones read that!

BPRAL22169: Just those who haven't at all, please.

Major oz: Filly.......why don't you give us the benefit of your lead-off criticism.

Major oz: Please

Major oz: :)

BPRAL22169: Wait a sec, Oz, Merfilly

Merfilly8:

Major oz: hokay

BPRAL22169: Who has not read "'If This Goes On--'"?

GHMyst: Which version?

Reilloc: I've read it but not recently.

BPRAL22169: Either version, smartie.

RMLWJ1: AGain, been quite a while. More recently than "Logic" though.

GHMyst: :-)

BPRAL22169: Ok -- I was afraid we'd have to do background, but it looks like everybody's at least been exposed to it.

BPRAL22169: One last: has anyone not read "Concerning Stories Never Written"?

BPRAL22169: It's in Revolt in 2100, if that helps.

Major oz: Me

Elizabeth Tee: Not I :(

GHMyst: Been a while

RMLWJ1: Not I.

PashaMor: i'm afraid i haven't. not yet, anyway

Major oz: long time ago

Reilloc: A number of years ago.

ddavitt: Don't own it but I read it in the bookshop last week

BPRAL22169: Ok -- we'll do some background on that when we get to it, then.

ddavitt: I have an older version of revolt without it

BPRAL22169: This is me ignoring Jane.

Major oz: I have read them all.......but have a weird dissassociation thing with titles

BPRAL22169: Okay.

ddavitt: Why?!

Major oz: who knows

BPRAL22169: Mer, why don't you lead off for "logic of empire."

Major oz: ??

RMLWJ1: Read 'Revolt" but can't recall how long ago.

BPRAL22169: Jane was showing off!

ddavitt: It's only three pages!

BPRAL22169: Either that or she was reading the essay very humbly.

BPRAL22169: Ok, very humble 3 pages.

BPRAL22169: Mer, you have the floor.

Merfilly8: Logic of Empire which shows sometimes that you can be in the thick of it and still not get it

Major oz: hokay....Revolt was the one with the religion with the "Magic Sheppard's Crook", yes?

labert8: ?

BPRAL22169: No, Oz. I think you're thinking of Sixth Column/Day After Tomorrow.

Merfilly8: Wingate, argued about the Venusian system at the beginning of the story, but really did not 'learn' much from his experiences, I think

ddavitt: Revolt was John lyle falling for a Virgin, becoming a rebel against the Prophet

Major oz: OK........then is must be the anti-Scudder revolt, yes?

ddavitt: Yes

Major oz: Ah yes.......

RMLWJ1: Revolt/If this goes on was about a coup attempt by a bunch of latter-day aryan supremacists.

Major oz: Total recall........let's go

ddavitt: Why do you think he didn't learn Filly?

ddavitt: What did he miss?

RMLWJ1: Boy. REally been a while.

Merfilly8: Granted he did learn it was a slave system, which he did not believe at first

ddavitt: Yes....sort of; it was entered into of own free will though

Merfilly8: but he 'learned' it in such a way that he was still blind to the overall economics and dynamics of the system

Major oz: Aryan supremicists? .........must think ST was fascist.........

BPRAL22169: I have a short summary of the story -- would anyone like me to post it here?

ddavitt: He expected people back home to get irate and stop it; never going to happen

Merfilly8: please Bill

GHMyst: "Logic" never struck me as one of RAH's

GHMyst: better stories

PashaMor: sure, bill

Merfilly8: As pointed out...history is not surprising, after the fact

BPRAL22169: "Logic of Empire" Short story originally published in Astounding SF in 1941; collected in The Past Through Tomorrow

Major oz: ga

BPRAL22169: Humphrey Wingate and his wealthy friend Sam Jones have done something really stupid: to settle a drunken bet (Wingate doesn't believe the labor indenture system on Venus is slavery), they shanghai themselves to Venus to experience the system at first hand and from the bottom up. By the time they sober up, it is too late. They become separated.

BPRAL22169: Wingate gets into trouble defending a fellow labor "client" and is forced into the Resistance in the Venerian outback. Jones finally gets help from his family and rescues him. Wingate writes a book to prove the case he did not believe, but he cannot sell it.

BPRAL22169: -30-

GHMyst: good summary

Major oz: hokay........it's back

labert8: And his compatriot says that people don;t want reasonable answers

ddavitt: Is the reason he can't sell it really because he's a bad writer though....

labert8: when he should have said complex, difficult answers

Major oz: What was the pub date?

ddavitt: 41

ddavitt: Who was profiting from the system though?

Major oz: you 'spose there was any contemporary causation ?

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

ddavitt: The plantation owners...and the people who "sold" the contracts. Was that a govt or a company?

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

Merfilly8: the plantation owners weren't getting rich

BPRAL22169: March 41, while Sixth Column was running.

Elizabeth Tee: It was a company, I think.

labert8: some mixture of the two, was my impression

BPRAL22169: Oz, I hope you've got the log; I just destroyed mine.

Merfilly8: I can save too

ddavitt: So one would think that the govt might be interested?

Major oz: As I recall, it was the owners, through a loose confederation, upheld by the gov.

ddavitt: David Wright's alter ego is running

ddavitt: Automatic log

BPRAL22169: Excellent.

ddavitt: Did the govt get a cut?

Major oz: No, Bill.........I'm on my brother's computer away from home........ou got it, Jane?

ddavitt: maikosh is D Wright at work

ddavitt: I will

Major oz: Ah, es

Major oz: "Y"es

ddavitt: Similar set up to the Company in red Planet?

Major oz: Did they get a cut.....I don't remember

BPRAL22169: Ok - Dave W's got it.

Major oz: I think the gov was hardly in effect.

Major oz: the "farmers" were the titular gov

ddavitt: I find it hard to believe that Earth wouldn't want to be involved; would leave it to private enterprise

ddavitt: No world govt of course

Major oz: Hard to believe......why?

ddavitt: Missing out on huge profits

Merfilly8: Like many aggies, the plantation owners "profit" was bound up in the next season...a losing battle unless you know just when to cut

ddavitt: Can you imagine us letting Bill gates "own" Mars for instance?

Major oz: I thought this was AFTER an independent Venus was established.

labert8: Jones uses the analogy that Venus is a "colony" in an expanding free market economy, comparing it to earth colonialism

Merfilly8: so it had to be the contractors selling the labor getting the profit...even though they had to stake bounty and shipping fees

Elizabeth Tee: Only if Bill Gates agrees to *live* there

BPRAL22169: A side point -- didn't Pohl and Kornbluth redo the economic system of LOE later in Gravy Planet?

labert8: It would seem the contractors and shippers would see hefty profits

ddavitt: But the "clients" make nothing and are trapped in a spiral

labert8: effectively, slaves

Merfilly8: the clients, paid a pittance sum against the cost of their exploits and upkeep are on the losing side

ddavitt: When the Prophet stopped space travel I wonder if non US companies took up the slack or if Venus became isolated?

ddavitt: That's assuming they were US companies to start with of course

BPRAL22169: I had the impression from LL's comments in Meth. Ch. that space travel stopped entirely for awhile.

Merfilly8: But Wingate's book...though likely drier than a desert (he was a lawyer, after all) had no chance of affecting it

labert8: Could it have subsisted without re-supply? But that would've come from Luna/Mars, I suppose

ddavitt: Could Venus survive with noone to trade with?

Merfilly8: in Stories never Written, I think it alludes to isolation for the colonies

ddavitt: But only with respect to Earth?

Merfilly8: yes

labert8: Stoppped only in America, I thought

GHMyst: survive, not prosper

Merfilly8: true, labert

ddavitt: Yes; US slipped backwards and the rest of the world carried on without it; not too likely nowadays

Merfilly8: Having no one to trade with is likely what killed the Empire system

BPRAL22169: Jane Jacobs bases her economic system on economic strength as a function of replacement of imports -- that would have forced Venus to become strong.

Major oz: When was the time of Poddy ........ before or after Logic?

ddavitt: I always felt that was unrealsitic; that the world would let Scudder take over and do that...

Merfilly8: I'd say after

BPRAL22169: I don't think Podkayne is in the FH.

GHMyst: diferent timeline??

labert8: Their wasn't the one world felling...

labert8: that we have today to make RAH consider the pressures that would've come from outside

Merfilly8: but I see similarites in the Venuses and mars' of the two

ddavitt: Poddy's venus had similar contract workers tho

Major oz: hokay -- I can buy different timeline

Major oz: I am just trying to see what RAH visualized the ultimate outcome of Venus, given the conditions extant in Logic/

GHMyst: similar because used same basic asumptions

Merfilly8: It turned into Nevada :)

labert8: Wouldn't he project a similar post-colonial pattern to that here on Earth?

Major oz: with attendant casinos and "ladies"

Major oz: :)

labert8: second class nation,

labert8: exploited

GHMyst: There is also the Venus of Betwwen Planets

Elizabeth Tee has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I was about to say -- it's a generic Venus that appears in Between Planets also.

Merfilly8: hadn't read that one

ddavitt: Similar natives to BP

Elizabeth Tee has entered the room.

ddavitt: Matriarchal Little People; oops I mean Space Cadet

ddavitt: BP was dragons

Major oz: In looking at where and when and what Venus is to become, I think I am distracted from the theme of the story

Merfilly8: yes Space Cadet is similar

Major oz: i.e. you don't understand slavery from the outside

labert8: When I re-read it recently, i saw it purely as a commentary on slavery. . .

Merfilly8: but, considering The Long Watch...Space Cadet might be FH

labert8: aside from a cool story, that is

ddavitt: I mentioned parallels between Wingate and farnham. Any thoughts?

labert8: the characters??

Merfilly8: I saw your parallels...but not sure on them

ddavitt: Who coped better with the situation?

BPRAL22169: I've been letting that one percolate, and I don't get any real resonance between the two.

Major oz: But weren't these two guys "limosine liberals" in taking a dillatente's holiday to Venus

Major oz: ?

GHMyst: Can you consider them both typical

GHMyst: Heinlein male charcters?

labert8: Yes, I see Farnham a far more capable person

Merfilly8: I did agree with the concept of corporate slavery, I believe David Silver raised that one

GHMyst: Farnham Yes..Wingate, I dont know

ddavitt: Both slaves not by choice, similar drug temptation, both escape through young blonde girls help

ddavitt: Both have to keep their identity intact and not give in

labert8: corporate slavery has a long history, I live 40 mile sfrom where the Molly Maguires arose

Merfilly8: Farnham was an active survivor...I don't see Wingate in that category

GHMyst: exactly

labert8: exactly. Hugh wouldn't have signed up

ddavitt: He did pretty well in the escape and rebel camp

BPRAL22169: I know what you mean in terms of the similar plot device, but the characters don't seem very alike to me.

Merfilly8: He had mentioned interns as well

labert8: wuh-huh?

Merfilly8: As corporate slave analogies

labert8: snicker. interesting

Merfilly8: you go to work after college, making diddly, so you "learn" the biz

ddavitt: Hugh would've had more sense maybe but he ended up in the same place Wingate did for all that

Major oz: a stretch........you CANNOT escape from Venus. You can walk away from the coal mines.

labert8: But Wingate was completely bailed out, having given up on escape

ddavitt: He'd joined the rebels and was fighting back

labert8: by default, though

ddavitt: How could he escape Venus? He can't stowawy and he was wanted man

ddavitt: He deliberately sought them out didn't he?

ddavitt: The incident that made him leave was an accident, granted

BPRAL22169: Wingate is always a "fish out of water." We never see him in a "proper" place.

Merfilly8: Yes. And he was unsure if he could go back, in a social sense

labert8: hmmn, maybe I'm misremembering. . .

ddavitt: He felt a sense of worth with the rebels that he never had on earth

labert8: true. that ol' "real work" ethic

ddavitt: But he still went back..was he fooling himself, thinking he was doing it to help those on Venus?

ddavitt: Maybe a bit...

Merfilly8: giving them radio comms was merely a hobby to intrigue his own mind. I didn't see it as a deliberate helpign measure

Merfilly8: and I think, agreeing with Jane, that his going back he rationalized in his mind

ddavitt: He was giving them real assistance _using_ his hobby

Merfilly8: as helping them

BPRAL22169: I think he was stunned that this was all real and felt a need to waken others to its existence.

ddavitt: But he also wanted to go home....can't blame him

Major oz: The Peace Corps approach ?

BPRAL22169: A faint echo of the bit with Thorby's grandparents in Citizen.

ddavitt: Yes....with similar results

labert8: shout it from the hilltops, yes. But he was naive about what he could accomplish. . .

Major oz: just like PC

BPRAL22169: mundus vult decipi

ddavitt: Those who knew didn't care, those who din't know didn't want to know

Major oz: yeah, what he said......

BPRAL22169: And PC may also be read as "Plato's Cave."

Merfilly8: should have learned from beng at the bottom that the power can only be shifted from the top

labert8: he hadn't reflected on all his earthly knowledge of the situation to realize that earth didn't care, and probably knew

Major oz: Or politically correct.........

ddavitt: Yes Filly....maybe his friend Sam Houston would have more success; or his sister

labert8: Sam Jones. (humbly, sorry Jane)

Major oz: What did England know about Caribean (sp) slavery, but pretended not to know?

ddavitt: They were rich and powerful; more chance of being heard but equally less naive

Merfilly8: but Sam didn't seem to "feel" his troubles as being part of the slave's troubles

ddavitt: Sam Houston jones

ddavitt: Missed off the Jones sorry

labert8: That there were "heathen savages" there

ddavitt: _Is_ that a significant name?

Merfilly8: two stories with Joneses being the benign help....

labert8: That's to Oz's question

Merfilly8: jones, derived from John, gift of God

ddavitt: Governor of Texas yes?

labert8: well, RAH liked his Jones

Elizabeth Tee: Sam Houston voted against secession. Wanted to stay in the Union.

Major oz: No,,,I had in mind the African slaves imported to the sugar fields

Merfilly8:

ddavitt: What is the other story Filly?

Elizabeth Tee: Don't know whether or not he was a slaveowner.

ddavitt: He drank a lot and had a wife for 11 weeks....

ddavitt: Then she went home. noone knows why

Merfilly8: Zebadiah Jones, ITGO

ddavitt: Duh!

labert8: There's a few more, I'm sure

BPRAL22169: And let's not forget Starman

Max Jones.

Merfilly8: I found it significant enough to double check my etymology of the name

Merfilly8: Obadiah Jones, aka Galahad

ddavitt: Heinlein liked the average surnames

Major oz: Interesting Texas connection: East TX was populated, in the majority, by black slaveOWNERS.

ddavitt: Smith especially :-)

ddavitt: Really?

Merfilly8: It's the Everyman approach

Major oz: .......at the time of Houstin, Austin, etc.

ddavitt: Yes...

Merfilly8: yes, it was

labert8: I've thought that might be it too.

BPRAL22169: Stover points to a patternin RAH of famous first names with common family names Woodrow Wilson Smith, for example. Smith and Jones are everyman, yes.

GHMyst: some of his surnames were NavalAcademy Clasmates

BPRAL22169: Andrew Jackson Libby.

ddavitt: Twins in Time For The Stars

Reilloc: Sir Isaac Newton.

Merfilly8: funny that pair...WW and AJ seem very cross-archetype in history

ddavitt: Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry

Merfilly8: yet Libby and Woody are best friends

BPRAL22169: Bit surprised by WW as exemplary name. He was a major racist -- set race relations in this country back 30 years.

ddavitt: Woodrow Wilson was a funny choice for maureen to make; it gets explained in TSBTS but I would have thought his WW! attitude would have bothered her later

Merfilly8: What did everyone think of the non-glamorous female intervention in LoE?

ddavitt: Poor thing!

ddavitt: She IS like Karen!

Merfilly8: I found it very un-Heinlein-ish

ddavitt: Duh again; Kitten

Major oz: I agree, Filly

Merfilly8: But then so was Wingate to me

ddavitt: Brain is dissloving tonight...

BPRAL22169: Also reminded me of the waitress in "Gulf." No particular reason. . .

Merfilly8: pregnancy poisoning at work, Jane

ddavitt: Dissolving I mean..it's getting worse

BPRAL22169: Don't tilt your head.

ddavitt: I think you're right Filly

ddavitt: Why, will it run out my ears? :-)

BPRAL22169: My thoughts exactly.

labert8: I found Wingate bothersome too. The playboy type. I'm not sure we were supposed to like him much.

BPRAL22169: Sorry -- that was a Low-Flying Cheap Shot.

ddavitt: Men saved by women; because sam's sister is Wingate's next helper

ddavitt: And as such, beneath me to reply to Bill

BPRAL22169: Oh, elevated one!That Shanghai

BPRAL22169: bit was kind of turn of the century pulpish, wasn't it?

ddavitt: Wingate was OK; heart in the right place

Reilloc: What do you suppose the thought process behind the choice of WW was when clearly RAH idolized another enough that is should have been Samuel Langhorn Smith?

Major oz: but brain missing, Jane

ddavitt: I've never been so drunk I couldn't remember in the morning

labert8: Good point, Bill it was. Rather like the beginning of a Tarzan novel

ddavitt: Who is Sam langhorn?

Major oz: When did the Brits stop press gangs?

Merfilly8: Samuel Clemens

BPRAL22169: I don't think Samuel Langhorn Smith woul dhave worked -- it would have to have been Mark Twain Smith. Samuel Langhorne Clemens.

Merfilly8: Mark Twain

labert8: "The steely eyed gentle men walking down the London street was aware of the three predators stalking him. . ."

ddavitt: Ah! Didn't know the langhorn bit

Reilloc: Whether it would have worked in the form I suggestion, the question still stands.

Reilloc: I just wish I could type well enough to ask it better.

ddavitt: He included the real man instead though

ddavitt: Man who dies in ITGO looks like Twain

BPRAL22169: Maybe it would have been just TOO obvious.

ddavitt: Still wonder if he was nobbled...

BPRAL22169: Nobbled?

ddavitt: Died very conveniently for those who wanted to brainwash; did he die in the magazine version?

ddavitt: Assassinated

GHMyst: not in mag version at all

BPRAL22169: No -- Interestingly, in the magazine version, they go ahead and hypno-condition the country.

ddavitt: Ah!

labert8: Which man who dies in ITGO looks like Clemens?

ddavitt: Yes, so I've been told

BPRAL22169: One line in the magazine version; an entire subplot in the book version, carefully argued the other way.

labert8: ah yes, the orater

ddavitt: The one who protests the Cabal's plans to use Prophet like brain washing

GHMyst: winter?

labert8: "leave my mind alone!

ddavitt: Yes

BPRAL22169: No -- he just objects to the Cabal conditioning the population. "Free men are not conditioned!"

BPRAL22169: Sorry, the "no" was earlier, to Labert.

ddavitt: How could Heinlein ever have written it any other way?!

labert8: Yes I'm a bit statled by that too

Major oz: he couldnt

ddavitt: Inconceivable to base a revolution to restore US on brainwashing

labert8: startled, that is

BPRAL22169: I think it was something he didn't think about when he wrote it originally, and then later realized it was an inconsistency.

BPRAL22169: Just a supposition, of course, but I think it works.

ddavitt: Big inconsistency....

ddavitt: Glad it was changed

labert8: Pump out the story, find a good out to get the country functioning. Yeah, he could have failed to analyse it at first

BPRAL22169: Both the Cabal and --

BPRAL22169: Just realized we're getting ahead of ourselves. Why don't we hold this topic until we move over to ITGO?

ddavitt: Though they still had the trick of the false broadcast that triggered the revolt

Major oz: Am I missing something? Did the original version INCLUDE brainwashing?

ddavitt: Yes it did

Elizabeth Tee: Unfortunately, I have to sign off...will try to catch the Saturday group.

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: Are we getting ahead of ourselves ?

BPRAL22169: Shall we hold this topic for a bit?

Elizabeth Tee has left the room.

Major oz: hokay

labert8: Bye E

ddavitt: Good night!

BPRAL22169: Oz, want to kickstart us again for "Logic"?

Major oz: that's my weak point...........ITGO is more vivid in memory..........but:

BPRAL22169: The playboy friend has a very "thirties" feel to it, to me. Kind of "cafe society."

Major oz: I see the two as unlikeable people, as they are dillatantes

labert8: Almost like something in Fitzgerald, yes

Major oz: ......and I hate all of that type

BPRAL22169: It ws not fashionable to be passionate in cafe society.

Major oz: the one gets screwed, and the other (strikingly similar to JFK) has to be rescued by his sister.

Major oz: the story put me off

ddavitt: I liked one small detail; about the luxury item, sweet sour melon being cheap on Venus but costs enough for food for a week for a middle class family back on earth; interesting swipe at relative/absolute values of things

labert8: Didn't RAh need that type to put in slavery, to emphasize their downfall?

Major oz: ......as being un-RAH

BPRAL22169: It was viewed as an important story at the time.

Major oz: Rum is cheap in the islands

ddavitt: It's not one I read as often as the rest of GHOE

labert8: In what way, Oz? The character choices, or elsewise?

BPRAL22169: But I'm with you; I never felt as strongly about it as about others.

Major oz: In what way what......?

ddavitt: Exactly; what is there that is valuable no matter where it is?

Major oz: that I didn't like them?

Merfilly8: I had to read Menace from Earth to get Logic out of my head...

labert8: It doesn't thrill me like the others either, I've always thought because it was more direct social commentary.

ddavitt: Basic stuff; water and air?

labert8: In what way is it unRAH?

Major oz: Oh, I usually like his "messages", his homilies, and philosophical points.

Merfilly8: His social commentary usually lies beneath a layer of entertaining veneer

Major oz: I don't need "action"

ddavitt: I think the Southern slave analogy was too marked; not sure it was a fair comparison

Major oz: But most of hischarecters are likeable, these are notl

Merfilly8: yet...a thought has just come to me..

Major oz: It was a weak anti-slavery piece, as the comparisons were too much of a stretch.

Merfilly8: AGGH! Logic of Empire itself comes across flat, and somewhat lacking in entertaining polish....just as Wingate's book fails

Merfilly8: to me anyway

Major oz: meta-meta-meta..........

labert8: Could he have been that conniving in the composition processs? I'm not sure

Major oz: nah

ddavitt: The rebel colony was interesting though; again, on afh I memntioned comparison to MIAHM?

Merfilly8: just coincidental then

ddavitt: Similar treatment of (scarce) women? Or was it more sinister?

Major oz: I think so, Filly

Merfilly8: I thought that grew from one of the stories never written

Major oz: I have no memory of the woman, other than that there was one.

Merfilly8: I had the impression that the femmes probably had a 'duty' roster of sorts

Merfilly8: on Venus

ddavitt: No, she was back on the plantation; owner's daughter

labert8: She was plain, daughter of the owner, she liked Wingate, and passed info to him

ddavitt: Yes, I don't think they were revered as they were on Luna

Major oz: Oh.......I was thining of the sister

Major oz: k

labert8: yes, just scarce, not revered.

ddavitt: Scary...

labert8: Though there were women among the contract laborers

ddavitt: Was the Luna version believable?

BPRAL22169: I don't think slavery was the theme of this story. It was a background.

Merfilly8: Go, Bill!

ddavitt: More likely to be rape and pillage than respect?

Merfilly8: I want to hear it?

labert8: probably, Jane, unfortunately.

Major oz: Had RAH been to South Africa before this piece was written

labert8: Well, Bill?

BPRAL22169: No.

BPRAL22169: Sorry -- I missed something. What am I being asked?

labert8: background to what?

ddavitt: What was the theme

Major oz: ...cause the plantation owners sure sound like the Africaaers

Major oz: n

BPRAL22169: Ijust meant, the story seems to me to be "about" people blinding themselves and a classic early Heinlein theme, being unwilling to face manifest facts.

ddavitt: Gullibility and blindness?

BPRAL22169: The indenture-slavery situation was story situation, so it is anti-slavery only incidentally.

labert8: Hm. That is the topic of the last page, true. Sam chides W for thinking his boo would work

Reilloc: That's more of a consequence than a story, though.

labert8: As Lazarus say, never underestimate. . .

ddavitt: I would agree that economics is a theme

GHMyst: Heinlein once said that of the

GHMyst: basic story themes is the

ddavitt: But in a way it segues nicely into another form of willing slavery; the people under the Prophet

GHMyst: man-who-learned-bteer.

Major oz: gee dubya is on the podium

labert8: ick

GHMyst: Would that apply to Wingate?

ddavitt: Well, is Wingate wrong in what he says at the start?

labert8: He learned, but to no effect. There's a lesson for ya.

ddavitt: He says they are emplyees, not slaves in a feely entered into contract; all true

labert8: But that is factually misleading

Major oz: Jane, I have always had trouble with characterizing a citizenery as slaves (eg CCCP, Hitlerien Germany)

ddavitt: I agree; big difference.

GHMyst: In fact, he admits that "Logic" is definitely

GHMyst: a man-who-learned-better"story.

ddavitt: Which is why the plantation songs, selling south bit never worked for me in logic'

Merfilly8: Slaves in practice, but not in theory...back around to the slave of the wage comparison

ddavitt: They weren't slaves.

ddavitt: No matter what Sam says.

ddavitt: They were fooled but not slaves

labert8: Who admits that, GH?

Major oz: agree

BPRAL22169: But it wasn't completely useless. Wingate's book added an increment to awareness of the situation.

GHMyst: Heinlein in his essay"On the

GHMyst: Writing of speculative Fiction"

Merfilly8: A bit of sand in the hourglass, though

ddavitt: But we don't know how it resolved; what happens to Venus after the Revolt and the Covenant?

Major oz: yes

ddavitt: Remember lazarus is there during the reign of the Prtophet; he wouldn't have been involved in slavery

Major oz: I find that frustating

Merfilly8: it was a good enough place for LL to slum by the time of MC

labert8: True, Bill, and that's the only way things have changed here as well, an accumulation of voices speaking out.

ddavitt: Do they contibue to use contract labour to get the swamproot? what is that used for anyway?

Major oz: Doesn't that imply (a little bit) that Venus was somewhat decent during the Scudder era?

Eeyore3061 has entered the room.

ddavitt: If the market went, or machines could do it 9 like cotton) would the systam fail?

labert8: Lazarus presence might mot mean much. Did he have the same scruples in 2100 as in 4100?

Major oz: I have lightening building, folks......maybe be dumped soon.

ddavitt: He was pragmatic but always anti slavery i would think

Merfilly8: did he even realize the system?

ddavitt: OK Oz

GHMyst: Lazarus...scruples??

ddavitt: lazarus would know i think

Merfilly8: Stick to the cities, and he might not ever see that side

Major oz: Yes, I think he did

Merfilly8: and he is still relatively young at this time

Major oz: have scruples

ddavitt: Definitely had anti slavery scruples from what he says in TEFL

Major oz: that shows from MC

BPRAL22169: He was an American.

ddavitt: That and not leaving a pregnant women awere his two main ones

ddavitt: And so?

Merfilly8: otherwise he would have jetted rather than stick his head in the noose for the families

labert8: He also may not have had much choice but to be in a frontier where he could "Masquerade"

Major oz: to an earlier Q: what was that root for?

ddavitt: He would not have enjoyed life under Scudder

ddavitt: Oh yes?

labert8: But I'd imagine slavery was gone or going soon after "Logic"

Merfilly8: I don't think it said did it?

Major oz: something like "spice"?

labert8: I read it recently, and don't recall the explanation

Merfilly8: zwilnik

Major oz: ?

labert8: melange?

Major oz: rings a bell

ddavitt: Not a drug I don't think Filly

ddavitt: Doc Smith

BPRAL22169: Soma

Major oz: hokay

labert8: hey, a Jason fan! good on ya Bill

ddavitt: Pea sized kernel in a husk

Merfilly8: but no explanation as to its use

GHMyst: Can we consider moving on to ITGO?

ddavitt: Not that i can see

Merfilly8: just re-read the passage where he talks about working with it

BPRAL22169: I'm in favor

ddavitt: Yes, me too!

Merfilly8: aye

Major oz: me 3

labert8: might give others more to say

ddavitt: Yes, ITGO sounds fine

Merfilly8: it go...hehehe

BPRAL22169: Do we want to take a short break?

Merfilly8: poor english

SAcademy: Thunderstorm coming--have to leave

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Night SA

GHMyst: 5 minutes??

ddavitt: Sure

Merfilly8: sure

BPRAL22169: Reconvene at 7:25, everyone. Selah.

Merfilly8: any techies willing to help a dunderhead? (namely me)

GHMyst: shoot

Merfilly8: My monitor has a noticeable "roll" across the screen a lot lately

ddavitt has left the room.

Merfilly8: used to be just if the microwave was running, despite a surge strip

Merfilly8: now, doesn't seem to be any particualar cause

GHMyst: could be neighbor

Merfilly8: in the army, we'd just use it til it blew, then replace...would like to avoid that option

RMLWJ1: Might want to check your vid card.

Merfilly8: my nearest neighbor is over half a mile up the road

Merfilly8: thanks

GHMyst: do any of the moniotr adjusts affect it?

Merfilly8: nope.

RMLWJ1: How old is the monitor?

Merfilly8: but it sure gives me eyestrain when it happens

Merfilly8: 2 years

labert8 has left the room.

labert8 has entered the room.

Reilloc: Win 98?

RMLWJ1: Should be within the number of operatiing hours then.

Merfilly8: yes

GHMyst: sorry, nothing occurs to me other than

GHMyst: the obvious point hat something is degrading

Reilloc: Does the display type match the display type of your video control card?

GHMyst: and will eventually die

Merfilly8: thanks for the pointers....yes, it does.

Reilloc: Does the monitor type match the monitor type of your monitor?

Merfilly8: I think it may have been abused by being on the same outlet as a major appliance for awhile...my hubby didn't know better

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: I went for a drink; came back to a blue screen....

ddavitt: Are we still on a break?

Merfilly8: Jane, you have a built in shelf yet? :)

Merfilly8: yes

ddavitt: Sort of....

Merfilly8: hehehe

GHMyst: give it another minute or 2

BPRAL22169: I think it's about time to reconvene, isn't it?

Merfilly8: best wishes to the baby and mommy

ddavitt: Lots of people don't think i look pregant; i'm 6 months now

ddavitt: They should see me in the bath

GHMyst: OK who starts??

Merfilly8: our elder girl turns one tomorrow

BPRAL22169: I've got one of those story summaries for ITGO. Shall I play it in?

ddavitt: Happy birthdat to her!

Major oz: ga

Merfilly8: yes, Bill

GHMyst: GA

ddavitt: Sure.

labert8: hey folks, I've gotta give my wife the PC for a while, will try to get back later. Have fun

ddavitt: Bye!

Merfilly8: bye Labert@!

BPRAL22169: If This Goes On --'" Short novel originally published in Astounding SF in 1940; expanded and collected into REVOLT IN 2100 and THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW150 years after the US voted in a permanent Theocracy, John Lyle falls in love with one of the "Virgins" destined for the Prophet's bed. He arranges for the rescue of his Virgin and defects to an underground resistance.

BPRAL22169: His training in military science gets him promoted to military arm of the conspiracy. Lyle gradually acquires sophistication as he educates himself in the ways of free men. Lyle takes an important part in the Second American Revolution and is present when the Covenant is devised, a new constitution for free men to live equitably together.

BPRAL22169: -30-

GHMyst: ITGO is interesrting because it is

GHMyst: probably the most rewritten stories in

GHMyst: terms of what is changed betwen the mag version

GHMyst: and the later bookversion

ddavitt: So it seems...

Merfilly8: I shall state now...I don't like John Lyle, but not sure why

ddavitt: He's not the average hero of a Heinlein is he?

Major oz: talk it out, Filly

labert8 has left the room.

RMLWJ1 has left the room.

Major oz: I see him as closely related to Oscar

ddavitt: His theft of the space ship is a bit Oscar like...but totally out of character if you ask me

Merfilly8: another character I did not warm to

Major oz: similar niavate, similar learning curve

BPRAL22169: in a sense he's the closest to Heinlein personally -- his mother's maiden name, the gunnery qualifications.

ddavitt: Oscar is cute!

Merfilly8: I found the whole escape thing contrived, and against character grain

ddavitt: Yes...but he suspects it was a plant of course

ddavitt: I assume they were tracking him hoping he would lead them to the cabal

GHMyst: LYle would be the first RAH charcter

BPRAL22169: Andt hat particular thought is never resolved is it.

GHMyst: to attend an Academy which makes the analogy to

Merfilly8: To be honest, ITGO kept reminding me on a sunconscious level of 1984

BPRAL22169: it's an important transition though --

GHMyst: RAH a good one

BPRAL22169: Andhe's being tracked by a member of the Academy, too.

GHMyst: ??

ddavitt: So how does he manage to fool them you mean?

BPRAL22169: As Reeves, he is being "spied on," he thinks, by a West Pointer who has removed his ring.

ddavitt: Yes.

Merfilly8: yes.

ddavitt: Then he overhears about the blood test

Merfilly8: and then he is left conveniently poorly secured on 'lock-up'

GHMyst: inresteing you should mention that

Major oz: I hacn't noticed that, Myst.

ddavitt: And a ship he can fly is there with the keys in

Major oz: Interesting...............

GHMyst: While he is on the rocket, he picks up

GHMyst: the earphones from the seat in front

GHMyst: to listen to the sound for the news on the screen at the front

GHMyst: of the cabin...Is this the first time someone

PashaMor: ok, the sun's up. gotta start the day. have fun

Merfilly8: bye

PashaMor: bye

ddavitt: Bye!

PashaMor has left the room.

BPRAL22169: One thing that struck me this time around is that there are three "phases" to this story with different imagery. There is the fake-medieval for the Prophet, then Secular-boureoise as Reeves the textiles drummer, then he transcends that to go underground.

GHMyst: sugested something like airline in-flight movies??

BPRAL22169: I noticed that, too.

ddavitt: :-) Could be.

ddavitt: I suppose that's abit we take for granted, forgetting the publication date

Merfilly8: I began wondering if the Cabal tipped off the police in a manner that allowed them to test John's capabilities

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Dehede011: Good Evening.

Merfilly8: After all, they weren't sure how to fit him into their hierarchy

BPRAL22169: Now, THAT is paranoid thinking!

ddavitt: Isn't that on a par with the recent discusiion about ship crash in SC?

GHMyst: definitely

BPRAL22169: I like it.

Merfilly8: I am not paranoid just because they are chasing me

ddavitt: No! Too tricky and sneaky

GHMyst: right!!

BPRAL22169: And, of course, they wer echasing him, weren't they?

ddavitt: Cabal wouldn't do that to one of their own I don't think

ddavitt: Hi there

Merfilly8: I don't know...not too impressed with their psychology dept

ddavitt: Still think it would not fit in with their rituals and such

Merfilly8: true

Merfilly8: And it is patterned after the Freemasons, yes?

ddavitt: Yes

Merfilly8: A group I'm not very educated on, unfortunately

ddavitt: He had the hyponotic message for his bonafides but that was allowable; setting the Prophet's men on him would be too risky

Merfilly8: Though RAH seemed to respect them

Dehede011: May a newcomer ask what is modeled after the Freemasons?

ddavitt: Cabal in If This Goes On

Merfilly8: The Cabal of If this Goes oN

Dehede011: Thank YOu.

Major oz: It is also one of the few works where an organized religion is mentioned favorably

Merfilly8: ee gads, my typing!

Major oz: .......the Mormons

Merfilly8: Ron, right?

ddavitt: Do you see the Masons as religious?

Major oz: no

ddavitt: Oh, the Mormons!

Dehede011: As religious yes, as a religion, no.

BPRAL22169: Jews, too --

Major oz: More of:

BPRAL22169: Heinlein was very anti -anti-semitic.

Dehede011: Yes, Merfilly Ron

ddavitt: Mormons get mentioned elsewhere

Major oz: good PEOPLE, not necessarily commenting on the dogma

Merfilly8: We're on If This Goes On, having moved past Logic of Empire

BPRAL22169: I think he was a little generous saying the Book of Mormon is no sillier than any other theology.

Dehede011: Okay, I am with you.

Merfilly8: with Stories never written up next

Merfilly8: I agree Bill

Merfilly8: I had difficulty with it, and I read religious texts like bestsellers

Major oz: how so

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: " all religions look equally silly from the outside' was that Jubal?

Merfilly8: or Lazarus

BPRAL22169: I think Jubal did voice a very similar sentiment.

Merfilly8: I began the Book of Mormon with an open mind, having been exposed to some tnets early on

Major oz: OHHHH, Filly -- you mean the religion, not the story

Merfilly8: yes

Major oz: hokay

BPRAL22169: I grew up near Morons in AZ.

Merfilly8: sorry, I jump brain threads too much

Merfilly8: Morons?

Major oz: oooops

Merfilly8: we all live near Morons

BPRAL22169: typo.

Merfilly8: hehehe

BPRAL22169: Indood we de

GHMyst: thats fur sure

ddavitt: Hmmm...

GHMyst: Back to ITGO

GHMyst: REgarding the two versions

ddavitt: ISTR a letter to a Mormon that Heinlein wrote that showed up on ebay?

Dehede011: I am a Freemason and one thing about ITGO very interesting to me.

Merfilly8: I never knew there were two til this thread started

Major oz: As I read it, H respected the mormon people as exhibiting those virture He wrote about, duty, responsibility, self-sufficiency, etc

ddavitt: He was sympathetic to the reader's beliefs and problem s with a story; Friday i think

GHMyst: IN the mag version, Lyle marries Judith

ddavitt: That would be a mistake IMO

Merfilly8: but in the book, he gets

Maggie

BPRAL22169: And goes off to be a textiles salesman with Reeves.

GHMyst: IN the book version, he nevr sees Judith again and marries

Merfilly8: right?

ddavitt: Yes

GHMyst: Magdalene

Merfilly8: a very interesting name choice

ddavitt: Significant name?

Merfilly8: the whore that was close to Jesus

ddavitt: What is Ron?

Dehede011: Judith might be, it means JEWISH WOMAN

Major oz: Never having read the mag version, I think I would like the book version better.

ddavitt: Me too.

Merfilly8: Judith = woman who cut off the head of the enemy, yes?

ddavitt: maggie was a whore...but a temple prostitute and thus OK

ddavitt: Holofernes

ddavitt: I think

GHMyst: It's also interesting to se how his style or skill

Dehede011: The fact that RAH used so much Freemasonry and always stopped short of actually revealing anything important.

GHMyst: improved

Dehede011: Also that Merfilly

ddavitt: Well, he wasn't one so i assume he couldn't know anything to reveal?

BPRAL22169: The book version also has a lot of stuff about learning the American heritage of freedom from Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. That was not in the magazine version.

Major oz: whose, Myst, John Lyle's?

Merfilly8: I realized that the first time I read it, without knowing it was a direct allusion to the Freemasons

Dehede011: Not true Jane

GHMyst: RAH

ddavitt: Never been proved Ron AFAIK

GHMyst: How he cahnged the wording in subtle ways in

GHMyst: the book version

ddavitt: Though I suppose details have leaked out over the years

Major oz: Did RAH edit the version that became the book, or did someone else?

BPRAL22169: RAH

Dehede011: You can go to Amazon and buy any number of acurate books on Freemasonry. RAH evidently did.

GHMyst: No editedrewrote to acertain extent

ddavitt: Back in 1941?

BPRAL22169: Virtually all of the Scottish Rite has been published.

GHMyst: Later

Dehede011: Bill, virtually all or everything.

BPRAL22169: The rewrite was in 1953 -- expanded from 34,000 to 54,000 words.

Dehede011: of everything

Merfilly8: that's a large addition

ddavitt: If H did know stuff I would imagine he would've had too much respect to reveal secrets?

BPRAL22169: You're probably right, Ron, it's just that I happen to know about that particular branch of the Freemasons.

ddavitt: Even open secrets?

GHMyst: most in the point after he escapes from the rocket

GHMyst: and arrives at HQ

GHMyst: The first half is almost the same

GHMyst: in both versions except for name changes and

Dehede011: It is pretty much an open secret for those who truly want to search the ritual out.

GHMyst: a few minor scenes

BPRAL22169: All of the stuff he learns in the cavern is added in 1953.

GHMyst: Right

GHMyst: Also the escape from the rocket is

GHMyst: made a bit less hokey

ddavitt: Could the rise of Communism have had an effect on the way H saw brainwashing?

BPRAL22169: The main change in the first part is having Judith met twice before she gets into trouble and changing what it was Judith saw that alarmed her.

ddavitt: Made free men become even more imprtant a symbol?

GHMyst: correct

Major oz: I would have thought the skinny-dipping scene was pretty racy for the original.

BPRAL22169: He was dealing with Commies during his political days. I think his opinion was pretty well set by 1941. Remember, he started writing as a 32 year old.

BPRAL22169: The skinny-dipping scene wasn't in the original.

Dehede011: In that day and age it was to me

Major. :))

ddavitt: But the analogy with USSR would have been more acute by the 50's?

GHMyst: Neither was Maggie smoking

Dehede011: Smoking was very common in the forties, look at the old movies

BPRAL22169: Zeb is not quite as "in your face" and "get over it" in the magazine version.

ddavitt: Was a woman smoking still shocking in the 40's then?

Dehede011: No, not at all, Jane

Major oz: No, Jane -- it was extremely sexy

ddavitt: Then why miss it out? Or add it in?

Dehede011: A few women were against it but not many.

ddavitt: Sexy?

BPRAL22169: Maggie becomes a major character in the book version.

Dehede011: It was the more sophisticated that did it.

BPRAL22169: Look at Dietrich trickling smoke through her nostrils and tell me it wasn't sexy.

Major oz: Look at promo stills for Bacall and some of the others

ddavitt: Like drinking cocktails?

Major oz: similar

Merfilly8: anything that draws attention to the lips of a woman...

Major oz: yes, yes, yes.........

Merfilly8: as explained to me by an older male friend

Reilloc: Doesn't her non smoking go more to purity than anything else?

ddavitt: Err....sorry bill, my female POV prevents that...plus I'm a non smoker; it's a nasty habit to me

ddavitt: I can see the lips bit i suppose.

BPRAL22169: Personally, I agree with you -- but as a visual image I don't have to smell, I can see what Oz and Ron are saying.

Dehede011: Jane, the difference is that for you it is unhealthy, and I agree, to them in the forties it wasn't ladylike.

BPRAL22169: And it was still a symbol of liberation at that time, though not as strongly as it had been 20 years earlier.

ddavitt: So the idea was to make Maggie seem even more of a tempting forbidden fruit?

GHMyst: at least in John's eyes

Major oz: yes

ddavitt: Of course.

BPRAL22169: No - I think it stresses her availability, not her forbiddenness.

Major oz: But also her self-determination

GHMyst: but there is the way he reacted to it.

Dehede011: I thought it was to mark her as a freethinker.

Major oz: ......which is, in itself, a sexy image

BPRAL22169: john Lyle doesn't disapprove of her smoking any more than he disapproves of Zeb.

GHMyst: It does not fit in with he 40's image

ddavitt: But he was still a bit tangled up in his beliefs...smoking was a sin

GHMyst: you just discussed

GHMyst: Lyle says that he had never seen a woman

ddavitt: He did disapprove of Zeb

GHMyst: smoke up to that point in time

BPRAL22169: True. it showed the Theocracy values he held onto and let us see him letting them go.

Major oz: exactly

ddavitt: It was a symbol; he smokes himself by the end

Major oz: It was interesting for each of these walls' destructions to be narrated.

BPRAL22169: One of the remarkable things about Heinlein is his idea -- darned near unique now -- that people can change themselves and get better. Don't have to be victims of their upbringing.

ddavitt: Interesting that Zeb knows it will give him lung cancer in light if the recent tobacco cases...

Major oz: everyone ALWAYS knew -- don't get me started........

ddavitt:

GHMyst: beat me to it

Dehede011: Jane, when I was a very small boy in the early forties we were perfectly aware cigarettes were "Coffin Nails."

Merfilly8: Jane, you're the stirrer of the pot! :)

ddavitt: Didn't some of the adverts promote them as healthy tho?

GHMyst: and your point is?

ddavitt: Well, I am shocked to see ciggie adverts in magazines here; been banned in UK for years

Merfilly8: If I just went by my army buds, I'd swear they increased lung performance :)

Dehede011: Healthy in the sense that the particular brand wouldn't give you a sore throat.

ddavitt: I am stirring a bit ,wicked grin>

Merfilly8: many of our best runners were smokers

BPRAL22169: They also advertised based on their calming effect.

Merfilly8: I've seen some old ads for early menthols...soothing for ther nerves and throat

Major oz: I set multiple swimming records in the 50's and 60's while smoking

Dehede011: And Baby Ruth bars for their "quick energy."

ddavitt: But the advets I see today still seem to indicate you'll be fit and sexy with a cigarette in youyr mouth so i guess some things never change

GHMyst: Bill, before I depart. How goes #7?

ddavitt: Yes; good question :-)

Major oz: but they appeal only to VERY stupid people

ddavitt: Plenty of those around OZ; the fol crop never fails

ddavitt: fool

Reilloc: Thanks for letting me attend tonight.

Major oz: And it's my right to make money off them.

BPRAL22169: I've been holding it for one last contribution, but I'm going to take it to the printer Friday

ddavitt: Where are you from btw?

Major oz: .....improves the breed

BPRAL22169: So it will go out next week.

Reilloc: Kansas

Reilloc: Goodnight.

Reilloc has left the room.

ddavitt: Do you lurk afh?

ddavitt: Too late...

GHMyst: OK thanks.

ddavitt: Look forward to it Bill

Dehede011: me too

GHMyst: Good night, all.

Merfilly8: nite

BPRAL22169: 'night.

GHMyst has left the room.

ddavitt: I have to go now; 11.00 pm for me...night everyone

Dehede011: See you Saturday afternoon.

Merfilly8: nite Jane

BPRAL22169: By coincidence, the Study this time is on ITGO.

ddavitt has left the room.

Major oz: nite

Dehede011: Good night.

Dehede011 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: My goodness, we're decimated.

Merfilly8: hmmm

Merfilly8: and we didn't get to Stories

Major oz: Well, the convention is over, also.

BPRAL22169: We also didn't get back to the psycho-conditioning subject.

Major oz: good speech

Major oz: never made it to stories never told

Merfilly8: nutz

BPRAL22169: The second shift should be showing up shortly, though.

Major oz: I am absolutely unfamiliear with SNT.

Major oz:

Merfilly8: The Sound of His Wings, detailing the rise of Scudder

Major oz: well, folks, I'm out. Probably won't be available Saturday.

Merfilly8: Eclipse, dealing with the break away of Mars and Venus

Major oz: Where does it appear, Filly

Major oz: ?

Merfilly8: take care, Oz

Merfilly8: the postscript is in Revolt

Major oz: hokay, gotta go.

Major oz: nite

Merfilly8: nite

Major oz has left the room.

Merfilly8: Well?

BPRAL22169: My goodness!

Merfilly8: Well, Bill. I think I will take the life boat too.

BPRAL22169: Well -- shall we do it ourselves?

Merfilly8: Didn't expect an early night like this

BPRAL22169: Eeyore, you will have to delurk!

Merfilly8: Probably looking for his tail

Merfilly8: :)

BPRAL22169: This is the first time this has happened.

BPRAL22169: Always a surprise.

Merfilly8: I can't make Saturdays anymore, not from the get go

BPRAL22169: Time a problem for you?Well, have a good night.

Merfilly8: you too

Merfilly8: I might see you in the last part of Saturday

BPRAL22169: I'll stay online in case people start showing up.

Merfilly8: ok.

Merfilly8 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Well -- we've at least covered part of the material, so the last part is probably right for you.

Eeyore3061 has left the room.

labert8 has entered the room.

labert8 has left the room.

maikoshT: Log Officially Closed at 11:41 PM Thursday 8-03-2000

Final End of Discussion Log

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