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Readers Group Template
Thursday 06/23/2005 9:00 P.M. EDT
Nature in Heinlein or "Is June bustin' out all over?

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Here Begin The Postings


From: LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25 2005
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:24:52 GMT
ANNOUNCEMENT:
HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
WHEN: June 23, 2005, 7:00 PM EDT and June 25, 2005, 5:00 PM EDT
WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
TOPIC: Nature in Heinlein or "Is June bustin' out all over?"

Last month it was stobor and this month it's erutan. That's almost Serutan and if Lazarus Long were Ted Mack he'd be invited to the original amateur hours, noted above. Yes, we're going to spin the old wheel of fortune...

Around and round and round she goes and where she stops, I think you all know. That AIM chatroom on the penultimate Thursday and last Saturday of the month. Feel stronger, fast, by attending--but enough of the old TV allusions. Here's the deal and here's the premise:

What's the nature of nature in the writing of Robert A. Heinlein?

It's apparent he had an eye for it and descriptions of it are integral to the way he wrote; but, to my way of thinking, it got shoved to the back seat, for a boy from Missouri who grew up surrounded by the natural beauty of (what used to be) one of the prettiest places on Earth. It's apparent, too, he liked to get out and see as much of the planet as he could. So...

Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the various works. Participant who posts the best and most convincing prior to the first meeting wins an all expenses paid invitation to the second meeting. Second prize is a job as assistant moderator.

June is bustin' out all over so let's have a real good clambake even if we have to walk through a storm with our heads up high.

See you here and see you there.

L.N.C.


From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005^M
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:37:00 GMT LNC wrote: < big ole snip >
> Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the 
> various works. 
I immediately thought of and looked up this one from Space Cadet:

"Matt found himself thinking about Des Moines in a late summer evening . . . with fireflies winking and the cicadas singing in the trees, and the air so thick and heavy you could cup it in your hand. Suddenly he hated the steel shell around him, with its eternal free-fall and its filtered air and its artificial lights."

Note: The ellipsis is RAH's.
From p. 113 of the Charles Scribner's Sons 1948 edition

Pax,
Rufe


From: LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:03:40 GMT
Dr. Rufo wrote:
> 
> 
> LNC wrote:
> 
> < big ole snip >
> 
> 
>> Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the 
>> various works. 
> 
> 
> I immediately thought of and looked up this one from Space Cadet:
> 
> "Matt found himself thinking about Des Moines in a late summer evening . 
> . . with fireflies winking and the cicadas singing in the trees, and the 
> air so thick and heavy you could cup it in your hand. Suddenly he hated 
> the steel shell around him, with its eternal free-fall and its filtered 
> air and its artificial lights."
> 
> Note: The ellipsis is RAH's.
>  From p. 113 of the Charles Scribner's Sons 1948 edition
> 
> Pax,
> Rufe

"Lovely Terra, Mother of Worlds! What poet, whether or not he has been privileged to visit her, has not tried to express the homesick longing of men for mankind's birthplace . . . her cool green hills, cloud-graced skies, restless oceans, her warm maternal charm."

CotG, way back when, page unknown.

That's it? What poet, indeed? Not exactly gushing with description, is he? Surely there's more to nature than this...?

Or was he so much a "nurture" guy that he only acknowledged, in passing, that there was a thing called nature?

LNC


From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:35:47 GMT
LNC wrote:
> Dr. Rufo wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> LNC wrote:
>>
>> < big ole snip >
>>
>>
>>> Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the 
>>> various works. 
>>
>>
>>
>> I immediately thought of and looked up this one from Space Cadet:
>>
>> "Matt found himself thinking about Des Moines in a late summer evening 
>> . . . with fireflies winking and the cicadas singing in the trees, and 
>> the air so thick and heavy you could cup it in your hand. Suddenly he 
>> hated the steel shell around him, with its eternal free-fall and its 
>> filtered air and its artificial lights."
>>
>> Note: The ellipsis is RAH's.
>>  From p. 113 of the Charles Scribner's Sons 1948 edition
>>
>> Pax,
>> Rufe
> 
> 
> 
> "Lovely Terra, Mother of Worlds! What poet, whether or not he has been 
> privileged to visit her, has not tried to express the homesick longing 
> of men for mankind's birthplace . . . her cool green hills, cloud-graced 
> skies, restless oceans, her warm maternal charm."
Don't you think this sounds a bit like the "sort-of" historian we meet at the beginning of Asimov's "Foundation" ?
> CotG, way back when, page unknown.
"You know what they say: 'Every civilized man has two planets: his own and Ganymede.'" "Space Cadet" again. *loc. cit.*
> That's it? What poet, indeed? Not exactly gushing with description, is 
> he? Surely there's more to nature than this...?
> 
> Or was he so much a "nurture" guy that he only acknowledged, in passing, 
> that there was a thing called nature?
[To focus on one meaning of the word "nurture"] Are you being SERIOUS? RAH, of all writers, expressing notions upholding or favoring the "nurturing" of one individual by another ???

Surely, RAH believed that it was the duty, right, responsibility and prerogative of each individual to configure his/her own tabula rasa as an expression of his/her own individual experiences, choices and concerns? Or, to use the image cited by a "Silver-tongued" individual elsethread, "to cultivate his own garden." Innit?

Rufe


From: "David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:09:29 -0400
LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:M2Jpe.2348$%j7.507
@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:

(snip)

> "Lovely Terra, Mother of Worlds! What poet, whether or not he has been 
> privileged to visit her, has not tried to express the homesick longing 
> of men for mankind's birthplace . . . her cool green hills, cloud-graced 
> skies, restless oceans, her warm maternal charm."
> 
> CotG, way back when, page unknown.
> 
> That's it? What poet, indeed? Not exactly gushing with description, is 
> he? Surely there's more to nature than this...?
> 
> 
There was this one:
"Now we come to Nova Terra, Beta Aquarii X-- and that, old son, is what the 
doctor ordered and why the preacher danced."

"You've been there?"
 
"Once. I should have stayed. Max, imagine a place like Earth, but sweeter 
than Terra ever was. Better weather, broader, richer lands...forests aching 
to be cut, game that practically jumps into the stew pot. If you don't like 
settlements, you move on until you've got no neighbors, poke a seed into 
the ground, then jump back before it sprouts. No obnoxious insects. 
Practically no terrestrial diseases and no native diseases that like the 
flavor of our breed. Gushing rivers, placid oceans. Man, I'm telling you."
[Starman Jones, end of Chapter 6].
Not too bad for someone who was noted, (for a good reason[1]), to limit descriptions.

On the other hand, there is this one:

"Golgotha", he said out loud. "Golgotha, the place of skulls." He was 
staring straight ahead. 
I looked where he was staring; there was a boulder sitting on top of 
another and the way the sun caught it, *did* look like a skull. It leered 
at us.

It was so darn quiet that you could hear your hair grow. The place was 
depressing me. I would have given anything to hear something or see 
something move. Anything--just a lizard darting out from behind a rock, and 
I could have kissed it. 

But there were no lizards here and never had been.

[1] IMO, RAH limited his descriptions for a very real and artistic reason: to make the reader fill in with his own imagination.

-- 
David Wright Sr.
If you haven't joined The Heinlein Society, Why Not?
       http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
The Heinlein Estate is again matching new member
registrations and fund raising up to $15,000 
Make your new membership count twice!

From: "David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 01:29:32 +0000 (UTC)
"David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net> wrote in 
news:Xns966FCD0F0E7Fnokvamli@63.223.7.253:

> LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:M2Jpe.2348$%j7.507
> @newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
> 
> (snip)
> 
>> "Lovely Terra, Mother of Worlds! What poet, whether or not he has been 
>> privileged to visit her, has not tried to express the homesick longing 
>> of men for mankind's birthplace . . . her cool green hills, cloud-graced 
>> skies, restless oceans, her warm maternal charm."
>> 
>> CotG, way back when, page unknown.
>> 
>> That's it? What poet, indeed? Not exactly gushing with description, is 
>> he? Surely there's more to nature than this...?
> 
And This one:
"It was such a day as comes only to New Mexico, with sky scrubbed clean by 
a passing shower, the ground already dry, but with a rainbow still hanging 
in the distance. The sky was too blue, the buttes too rosy and the far 
reaches to sharp to be quite convincing. Incredible peace hung over the 
land and with it a breathless expectancy of something wonderful about to 
happen."

_Between Planets_, opening paragraph.
-- 
David Wright Sr.
If you haven't joined the Society, Why Not?
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html

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Benefit The Heinlein Society by ordering books thru   
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From: LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:52:08 GMT
LNC wrote:
> ANNOUNCEMENT:
> 
> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
> WHEN:    June 23, 2005, 7:00 PM EDT and June 25, 2005, 5:00 PM EDT
> WHERE:    The usual AIM chatroom
> TOPIC:    Nature in Heinlein or "Is June bustin' out all over?"
You moron. Yes, you. It's "June 23, 9:00 PM EDT," you moron.

Okay, that's two weeks from the day after tomorrow, right about now, see?

L.N.C.


From: "David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:01:51 +0000 (UTC)
LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:UDlpe.1561$I14.869@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com
Just to remind those who may not have seen LNC's correction.

From: "David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net> Note that the correct time is *9:00* P.M. EDT, not 7:00 P.M. EDT for the first discussion in the upcoming Readers Group Meetings.

Thank You

David W.

-- 
The next meetings of the Heinlein Readers Group
       Thursday  6/23/05 @ 9:00 P.M. EST and
       Saturday 6/25/05 @ 5:00 P.M. EST
The topic for this discussion will be: 
Nature in Heinlein or "Is June bustin' out all over?"
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html

From: Pattie <beanpharie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:16:54 GMT
David Wright Sr. wrote:
> LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:UDlpe.1561$I14.869@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com
> 
> Just to remind those who may not have seen LNC's correction.
> 
> Note that the correct time is *9:00* P.M. EDT, not 7:00 P.M. EDT for the 
> first discussion in the upcoming Readers Group Meetings.
> 
> Thank You
> 
> David W.
> 
Pray tell, where would I go to attend such a meeting?

Pattie

-- 
Visit http://www.magicteapot.com/
an Adult Search Engine

From: "David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:40:13 +0000 (UTC)
Pattie <beanpharie@verizon.net> wrote in news:WkBpe.9020$%23.4349@trndny02:

> 
> 
> David Wright Sr. wrote:
>> LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
>> news:UDlpe.1561$I14.869@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com 
>> 
>> Just to remind those who may not have seen LNC's correction.
>> 
>> Note that the correct time is *9:00* P.M. EDT, not 7:00 P.M. EDT for the 
>> first discussion in the upcoming Readers Group Meetings.
>> 
>> Thank You
>> 
>> David W.
>> 
> 
> Pray tell, where would I go to attend such a meeting?
> 
> Pattie
See the link below. It has instructions on how to download AIM.

You should be able to set it up and be able to get into the room yourself by following the instructions on the link.

http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info

However, if you have any trouble, please e-mail me at dwrighsr@alltel.net and I will be happy to assist you. When you have it running and have a 'Screen Name' (Buddy Name) assigned, e-mail it to me and I'll add it to my list so that I can watch out for you at chat time in order to issue an 'invite'. I will also add your e-mail list to the Notification Mailing List.

Note: AIM has a limit of 200 names on the 'Buddy List' and mine is about full. I will be going through it and deleting those names who have not participated in a discussion during this year to make room for newcomers. I will post a list of the deleted names here so that anyone who is still planning on participating can be retained on my list.

In addition, If anyone is not now receiving the pre and post discussion notifications and wants to receive them, then please e-mail me at dwrighsr@alltel.net, so that I can add you to the mailing list. I just removed a couple as the addresses that I had were bouncing messages back.

These were:
LVPokerPlayer (Aspie?)
Pixelmeow
Mark Mills

I know that both pix and LV attend here, so that if they could send me their current address, I can correct the mailing list.

David W.

-- 
The next meetings of the Heinlein Readers Group
       Thursday  6/23/05 @ 9:00 P.M. EST and
       Saturday 6/25/05 @ 5:00 P.M. EST
The topic for this discussion will be: 
Nature in Heinlein or "Is June bustin' out all over?"
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html

From: "JaneE!" <aggirlj@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: 8 Jun 2005 05:24:17 -0700

Hi Pattie,

That would be in the Heinlein Readers chat room that you can access, (at leat I can), from our web site at http://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html .

I now David W will give you really good instructions on how to do that, but if you use AIM just click on the link and you're there. Or, let us know your buddy name and someone will be glad to invite you.

JaneE!


From: Pattie <beanpharie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:35:31 GMT
JaneE! wrote:

> Hi Pattie,
> 
> That would be in the Heinlein Readers chat room that you can access,
> (at leat I can), from our web site at
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html .
> 
> I now David W will give you really good instructions on how to do that,
> but if you use AIM just click on the link and you're there.  Or, let us
> know your buddy name and someone will be glad to invite you.
> 
> JaneE!
> 
Thanks Jane! I've got the site bookmarked, and hopefully I will be able to attend, though I'll probably just lurk and read. I've got AIM, I use two seperate versions of it. I'm looking forward to reading!

Pattie

-- 
Visit http://www.magicteapot.com/
an Adult Search Engine

From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:27:04 GMT
LNC wrote:
  < snip >

> Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the 
> various works. 
From the beginning of The Tale of the Adopted Daughter:

Stand with me on Man's old planet, gazing north when sky has darkened; follow down the Dipper's handle, half again and veering leftward. Do you see it? Can you sense it? Nothing there but cold and darkness. Try again with both eyes covered, try once more with inner vision, hearken now to wild geese honking, sounding through the endless spaces, bouncing off the strange equations. There it glistens! Hold the vision, warp your ship through crumpled spaces. Gently, gently, do not lose it. Virgin planet, new beginnings.

Rufe


From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:11:19 GMT
Dr. Rufo wrote:
> 
> 
> LNC wrote:
>  < snip >
> 
>> Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the 
>> various works. 
> 
> 
>  From the beginning of The Tale of the Adopted Daughter:
> 
>     Stand with me on Man's old planet, gazing north when sky has 
> darkened; follow down the Dipper's handle, half again and veering 
> leftward. Do you see it? Can you sense it? Nothing there but cold and 
> darkness. Try again with both eyes covered, try once more with inner 
> vision, hearken now to wild geese honking, sounding through the endless 
> spaces, bouncing off the strange equations. There it glistens! Hold the 
> vision, warp your ship through crumpled spaces. Gently, gently, do not 
> lose it. Virgin planet, new beginnings.
> 
> 
> Rufe
Sorry for the "piggy-backing," but --
Kalevala has a rhythm.	
"Hiawatha" has it also.	
RAH could read it. RAH could write it.
Had a purpose when he used it. 	
Made the reader focus clearly.	
Focus outward, focus inward.
Was it focus that RAH wanted?

Puts the reader in a puzzle.
RAH's use of this ancient measure.
Is this prose or is it something?
Something diff'rent? Something special?
Something RAH used only one time.
Used it clearly. What's the reason?

Was it form? Or was it substance?
Can you tear those two asunder?
Will you tear those two asunder?
If you tear them, give a reason.
Tear them sunder for a purpose.


I will no more use this meter.
Put the question, that's sufficient.
No more bouncing in iambic.
Please reply howe'er you'd like to.
< weg >

Rufe


From: LNC <reilloc@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Notice of Heinlein Readers Group Meeting: June 23 & 25, 2005
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:31:01 GMT
Dr. Rufo wrote:
> 
> 
> LNC wrote:
>  < snip >
> 
>> Post and give us your fav examples of descriptions of nature in the 
>> various works. 
> 
> 
>  From the beginning of The Tale of the Adopted Daughter:
> 
>     Stand with me on Man's old planet, gazing north when sky has 
> darkened; follow down the Dipper's handle, half again and veering 
> leftward. Do you see it? Can you sense it? Nothing there but cold and 
> darkness. Try again with both eyes covered, try once more with inner 
> vision, hearken now to wild geese honking, sounding through the endless 
> spaces, bouncing off the strange equations. There it glistens! Hold the 
> vision, warp your ship through crumpled spaces. Gently, gently, do not 
> lose it. Virgin planet, new beginnings.
> 
> 
> Rufe
Accident or coincidence. Just like stobor/robots. What? You think he was a poet but doesn't know it? Except for his feet, they're long fellows.

This topic, it's not generating a lot of interest. I think I'll bring in something from another thread:

Pharmanaut wrote:
 >
 >     We are the "First Adopters" in marketspeak. Hoovering up progress
 > impatiently. feeling that things aren't happening fast enough, worried we
 > may die to early and "MISS SOMETHING GOD DAMN IT!
 >
 >     Puzzled by the "Oooh! Things change too fast!" brigade, we pity those
 > who say "Immortality? four score years and ten is enough for me!"  We sit a
 > gaze at the stars, not as the majority do, as an abstract, slightly 
 > mysterious scatter of diamond dust, but as places to go, new horizons and
 > Lebensraum!

 > Pharm..
Looks to me like there's a sentiment afoot that nature is there, there's no denying it, but nature is something to be subdued. Something to be overcome or outlived. Or both. Consequently, when natural setting's mentioned, it's cursory and comes off as a mere concession to the necessity of the setting of action in a place.

LNC


From: "David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net>
Subject: Heinlein Readers Group 6/23-6/25
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:50:47 +0000 (UTC)

Due to sickness in the family, LN Collier, the moderator for the Heinlein Readers Group discussion cancelled last night's formal discussion.

However, we didn't let that stop us from having a very good 'informal' discussion with up to 11 people attending.

The main topic 'Nature in Heinlein' was indeed discussed some, but most of the discussion ranged over several topics, the most prominent of which was did "Heinlein's fear of death" provide the motivation for his 'obsession' with immortality(or simply long-life)?

Any comments from afh-ers are encouraged.

Hopefully, LNC will be back with us at the next meeting on Saturday 6/25 at 5:00 P.M. (Hope everything is well LN), and we can continue with our lively discussions. I hope to have a temporary URL for last night's discussion up by the end of the day.

David

-- 
The next meeting of the Heinlein Readers Group
       Saturday 6/25/05 @ 5:00 P.M. EST
The topic for this discussion will be: 
                 "Nature in Heinlein".
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html

Go To Posting

Here begins the Discussion


You have just entered room "heinleinreadersgroupchat."

Kultsi KN has entered the room.

Kultsi KN: Hello, Dave!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Kultsi

Kultsi KN: how's life, universe and everything?

DavidWrightSr: Actually, the meeting for tonight has been cancelled due to some sort of illness in LNC's family, but we can continue if people want to. Life is interesting. Only 250 days to retirement.

Kultsi KN: dang! you've got that close!

Kultsi KN: I wish I had enough money to do that now

DavidWrightSr: Yep, if I can just be sure that I can afford to do it. Looks reasonable now, but never can tell about the future.

Kultsi KN: who can? that's what is exciting about the future: all the best-lain plans and al that

DavidWrightSr: I'm planning on doing Spyware cleanup on PCs on a free-lance basis. Even 4-5 a month would make it gravy.

Kultsi KN: hehe. do not plan too much upon that: f-secure made a deal with Lavasoft and they are now selling AdAware as part of their Internet Security

Kultsi KN: although Spybot - Search & Destroy finds things _after_ adaware finishes

DavidWrightSr: Well, AdAware is ok, but there are a lot of things that it misses. I use a combination of several preventive and corrective programs

DavidWrightSr: as well as other analysis tools.

DavidWrightSr: I'll be right back. Got to let my wife check here e-mail. Greet anyone that shows for me.

Kultsi KN: <nod> yes, you need to do that -- spyware's sneakier than virii

Kultsi KN: anyway, I think f-secures offer is the first time virus protection houses go against spy software

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Dehede011: How goes the evening??

toxdoc1947 has entered the room.

toxdoc1947: hello

starfall2 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Good. Hang on a bit. I have invited everyone that I see into the room and I'll make an announcement

starfall2: hi!

Dehede011: Hanging on

toxdoc1947: hi

Dehede011: Hi, Starfallen

DavidWrightSr: "Catch a falling star, put it in your pocket'

Kultsi KN: hello all!

Kultsi KN: I look around a bit and the house is full

Dehede011: Not a Full House but better than a Pair

DavidWrightSr: It doesn't look as if the other invitees are going to join, so I'll start out. LNC cancelled tonight's meeting due to illness in his family. However, we can discuss the subject or anything else as is your pleasure.

Dehede011: I've been reading the Ginny Heinlein Bio issue of The Heinlein Journal

DavidWrightSr: The subject was supposed to be 'Nature in Heinlein', but we didn't get a lot of pre-discussion on the subject.

DavidWrightSr: Is that a new one?

Dehede011: No it is an old one

DavidWrightSr: Good. I thought that I must have missed my new issue.

Kultsi KN: isn't it a dandy -- the only time I get here in five rainy summers, the moderator cancels it...

DavidWrightSr: As I said, we can carry on ourselves, We don't have to have a moderator.

Dehede011: But Ginny once made a comment about what her parents would have thought about her not spending her life as a scientist.

Dehede011: I am wondering what she and Robert really thought of how they spent their lives.

Kultsi KN: yea, like with the faq -- who needs a stinkin' faq

leetheflirt has entered the room.

leetheflirt: Hi all

Kultsi KN: hi, Lee!

starfall2: hi

Dehede011: Hi Lee

leetheflirt: sorry I'm late

toxdoc1947: RAH always sort of said that he wasn't really working - as a writer

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Lee. I was just explaining that our moderator cancelled on us, but we can continue on ourselves. Subject was supposed to be 'Nature in Heinlein'.

Kultsi KN: so -- he was just spending time at the typewriter?

Dehede011: Yes, but he didn't do anything with the Naval career he wanted.

leetheflirt: Well he was kinda discharged

DavidWrightSr: By that time, a naval career was no longer an option.

Dehede011: I understand but still a let down, I think

Dehede011: He worte about a very futuristic world but didn't get to live there at all.

toxdoc1947: he made it seem that he was just buying the groceries with writing, but he obviously spent an enormous amount of energy on it

Kultsi KN: for him, yes; for us, definitely not

leetheflirt: He was raised in the Midwest somplce, right?

Kultsi KN: KC?

leetheflirt: somplace sorry

Dehede011: Right and Lee that is exactly why I am wondering.

DavidWrightSr: Born in Butler, MO, raised in Kansas City,M

Dehede011: KC

Dehede011: Yes

leetheflirt: self-agranndisement has never been too popular there

DavidWrightSr: Well, he did get to see men walk on the moon, but I am sure that he would have very much liked to have been there himself.

leetheflirt: He said that that day

Dehede011: He and I are both native Missourians. That makes me very aware of the difference between his dreaam world and his reality

Dehede011: dream world

Dehede011: So, I wonder what he thought of it all.

leetheflirt: The day of the moon landing, Cronkite was interviewing him, and he said he'd give his eyeteeth to walk on the moon

toxdoc1947: so would I

Dehede011: Did he say anymore to help us see how he felt

Kultsi KN: who woulda not?

toxdoc1947: who wouldn't?

starfall2: i would, too

DavidWrightSr: Just read "Requiem". I think that he knew even at that early date, that he would never make it.

Dehede011: I have a different take on the phases of his stories and that also causes me to ask.

Dehede011: The phases he went through as a writer.

leetheflirt: Yes, he said something about how the fact we could look up at the Moon and know men had walked there would forever more change our perspective of it.

DavidWrightSr: GA Ron.

DavidWrightSr: What's your take?

leetheflirt: He said it would make us feel less alone in the universe, something like that.

Kultsi KN: for me, more's the answer, Lee

Dehede011: I see him early in his career as experimenting with different ideas. Then starting in TEFL having put everything in place to have his ideal world/life.

leetheflirt: TEFL?

starfall2: time enough for love

Kultsi KN: Time Enough For Love

toxdoc1947: i sort of see it as a different phase

Dehede011: A lot of his writing starting with Time Enough for Love

leetheflirt: of course - sorry

starfall2: no problem

Kultsi KN: good point, Ron

Dehede011: has him living in his dream world -- his ideal world

toxdoc1947: something he moved to after the kids' adventure stuff

toxdoc1947: but some of it was there in siasl

Dehede011: Yes, and after experimenting with different ideas for what that might be like

leetheflirt: I don't see him really interested in nature, though. How men could mould it, sure, but not the kind of love hikers and such have

DavidWrightSr: Have you read _For Us, The Living_? There was a lot of what we consider later Heinlein there from the beginning.

Kultsi KN: that _does_ explain the divider that many find in RAH's work

Dehede011: Yes, but when you look at the ideas that made up his ideal world much of it was missing from FUTL

DavidWrightSr: What ideas are you thinking of?

leetheflirt: I don't know if it's really fair to work with stuff he didn't want published

Kultsi KN: I agree with you, Lee

Dehede011: Immortality, time travel, space travel, time to accumulate vast wealth.

Dehede011: What else, anyone?

leetheflirt: The ability of man to shape his environment

toxdoc1947: all you need is love

Dehede011: Yes, good Point

leetheflirt: endless fascination with human relationships

toxdoc1947: that's a really fundamental line in his later stuff

DavidWrightSr: Well, both time-travel and space-travel were in FUTL, if you consider Perry's somehow going into the future after his death and space-travel was the ending.

Dehede011: True,

Kultsi KN: continuing Lee's remark ...and very little fascination with Mother Nature's works

Dehede011: With time travel, space travel, etc he had the ability to keep his ideal social group together.

DavidWrightSr: Well, he wrote 'speculative fiction'. He had to have broader backgrounds for those speculations to take place in.

leetheflirt: I dunno, the future of the human race is a pretty big canvas

DavidWrightSr: Time-travel, space-travel, long-life, the multi-verse all were part of that

DavidWrightSr: Yes, Lee, that was his canvas.

Dehede011: Yes, brb. It has gotten dark and I have to turn on the lights.

toxdoc1947: I'm sort of fascinated with the emoting supercomputers -

Kultsi KN: should I say the opposite?

toxdoc1947: digitize love?

Kultsi KN: to Ron

leetheflirt: One of those reoccuring themes was that, no matter what the planet, we would be able to mold it to our use. Do people find that a reasonable assumption?

DavidWrightSr: On nature, I have often read and noticed to some degree that RAH was short on descriptions. I noticed, however, as I was re-reading _Between Planets_ that the opening scene was very descriptinve, but ..... no -30-

DavidWrightSr: He used the beauty and calmness of it to set up the coming scene where Don learns that his world has just turned over.

leetheflirt: Yea, the kid on the pony

leetheflirt: he also uses it to set Don up as someone who can do what's neccessary when he shoots that rattler

DavidWrightSr: I didn't think of that one. Even though, it wasn't his best shot O:-)

Dehede011: David, you brought out a good point. He didn't seem to use nature much -- but when he did.

leetheflirt: lolol

Kultsi KN: in all my reading of RAH I've been _bothered_ about the way he treated nature

DavidWrightSr: Exploitation of Nature?

Kultsi KN: it does not feel _right_ to me

toxdoc1947: definitely not a primal force to him

leetheflirt: although in Tunnel in the Sky he did a nice job

leetheflirt: and the settler adventure in TEFL was pretty convincing also

starfall2: it doesn't seem all that odd to me - but i'll be the first to admit that i don't see much actual nature around here

DavidWrightSr: If I wasn't spending all of my time looking for Korzybski references, I'd start noting the nature references, but that would be too much at present. Maybe after I finish the article.

Kultsi KN: not exploitation, Dave; rather the way we _see_ or _feel_ nature

DavidWrightSr: I do feel that the kind of thing that I saw in _Between Planets_ will be found quite a bit.

DavidWrightSr: Can you explain?

leetheflirt: He used nature as a set

Dehede011: If you can tolerate one more comment on Heinlein's World and how he felt about his life I will close that down.

DavidWrightSr: GA

leetheflirt: I'm game

Kultsi KN: shoot

RichardFctn has entered the room.

Dehede011: The question of his life is particulary poignant for me right now as I just noticed that Aubrey de Grey has proposed a 25 year project to achieve immortality

[Editor's Note: See http://www.speculist.com/archives/000056.html]

DavidWrightSr: Hi Richard.

Dehede011: If that had came to fruition during RAH's lifetime the rest could possibly have happened.

RichardFctn: Hello All!!

leetheflirt: Hi

DavidWrightSr: How does ADG propose to do that?

starfall2: hi

Kultsi KN: immortality is not subject to proposals, IMO

Dehede011: ADG believes it might be possible to repair the human body almost perfectly.

Kultsi KN: it MIGHT

leetheflirt: I think most of the immortaliy in the novels was more he was frightened of death than anything else

Dehede011: What leads you to that conclusion, Lee?

toxdoc1947: yeah - Lazarus Long kept getting pulled back from the edge

DavidWrightSr: I don't agree Lee. I think that he came to terms very early with death. No clear evidence, just a feeling.

Kultsi KN: anybody who's lived a bit is, at least, aware of death

Dehede011: I am 70. Most of us can count an almost infinite number of times we cheated the grim reaper.

leetheflirt: Because it was such a constant. A lot of people talk of what frightens them most to contain the fear. And you don't see him writing about it so often

DavidWrightSr: I think that the main reason behind LL was to have a character who would see all of the changes that would happen and to give us the reader, in effect, our viewpoint on those changes.

leetheflirt: sorry DO find him

Kultsi KN: the wish to live forever is right there without bidding

toxdoc1947: yeah, but Libby died

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

toxdoc1947: sort of

Dehede011: One more ideal achieved, he brought Libby back

Kultsi KN: Libby was _killed_

BPRAL22169: Hey, all.

leetheflirt: Hi

Dehede011: Evening Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill. Don't know if you got the word, but Collier cancelled on us because of illness. We are carrying on without him.

GreedyCapitalist has entered the room.

starfall2: hi

leetheflirt: ah, everyone's fashionably late

Kultsi KN: hi, Bill, GC

DavidWrightSr: Bill is the ideal person to talk about Heinlein's take on long-life. We were just discussing it. One proposed that he wrote about because of fear. What's your view?

DavidWrightSr: Nature has taken a back-row seat, at least for the present.

jcgsmtop1 has entered the room.

leetheflirt: Hey, we ALWAYS wander off-topic

jcgsmtop1 has left the room.

Dehede011: Did we wander of topic or almost deliberately veer off. (Grin)

leetheflirt: :-P

Dehede011: brb, mule

toxdoc1947: long life is an eternally beckoning subject

toxdoc1947: I think he just picked up on a money maker

DavidWrightSr: Ok, any other comments on either nature or long-life. I had mentioned that he used a nature description in the opening paragraphs of _Between Planets_ to set up the coming scene in the Headmaster's office.

Kultsi KN: to me, RAH's never _felt_ like a person loving nature

BPRAL22169: Well, he had a conviction of personal immortality that was independent of religious belief.

DavidWrightSr: Can you give any specific examples?

leetheflirt: I think he was someone who had leared early that it bites too often and to savagely to be trusted

BPRAL22169: I don't know if that includes "long life."

toxdoc1947: he definitely thought like a marine when it came to nature

DavidWrightSr: That's the first I've heard that Bill, can you give us any more details?

leetheflirt: He places a lot of people in a natural setting, but it's always so they can triumph over it

BPRAL22169: You know that thing in Stranger where he talks abvout the worm who meets his other end and falls in love? That's an experience he had as a child.

Dehede011: ??

BPRAL22169: He had mystical experiences as a child -- the connectedness of all life

leetheflirt: he fell in love with his other end?

Kultsi KN: exactly, Lee! He'd cut a tree to advance; I'd walk around it

toxdoc1947: lol

BPRAL22169: As an adult he conceptualized it in terms I can recognize as Emerson's Over-Soul.

leetheflirt: sorry

DavidWrightSr: So, the glimpses we see in reading about LL, and in BTH, would derive from those?

BPRAL22169: Yes. SIASL, too.

DavidWrightSr: When are you going to get the book finished? I can't wait to read it.

leetheflirt: Bill, wou;d you say he feared death, though?

BPRAL22169: "Thou Art God" means "you are over-soul. I hav ea strong feeling he was taking the World As Myth books in that direction, too.

Dehede011: Bill, I am finding an accessibility problem in Heinlein's philosophy

BPRAL22169: Feared death? Not in the lezst.

BPRAL22169: ??

BPRAL22169: (I'm doing 1955 now -- hope by the end of the year or spring at latest)

leetheflirt: Did you ever meet him?

BPRAL22169: Yes, briefly in 1976

BPRAL22169: Short corrspondence with him before that.

leetheflirt: Just the once, then?

BPRAL22169: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: Ron. What's your accessibility Problem?

BPRAL22169: Accessibility, Ron? What do you mean?

Dehede011: I believe you have spoken of his philosophy in terms of the late 19th century.

BPRAL22169: gmta

Dehede011: Are the books explaining that philosophy still available.

BPRAL22169: certain aspects of it, yes.

Dehede011: In other words if I wanted to go to the sources for his philosophy, where would I go to compile a reading list??

BPRAL22169: "the books" doesn't really make sense. It wasn't a book thing so much. You can find bits in different places.

BPRAL22169: Start with a book by Hal Sears called "The SEx Radicals" and look in the various magazines he talks about.

BPRAL22169: Try doing a search for "Freethought movement" in your local library.

Dehede011: Well, Emerson is accessible, who else?

Dehede011: Okay.

leetheflirt: Hey Bill?

BPRAL22169: He said he was mostly shaped by Huxley, Wells.

BPRAL22169: Yo?

leetheflirt: Have you read the Alexi Panshion bio?

BPRAL22169: He rread a lot of Fiske as a youngster -- that prepared him for Korzybski.

BPRAL22169: You mean Heinlein in Dimension? yes.

Kultsi KN: Freethought did bring about atheists and agnostics, right?

BPRAL22169: It's not really a bio, though -- it's really more of a survey.

leetheflirt: That supported his being afraid

BPRAL22169: "Bring about?" more like "organized."

Kultsi KN: yeah -- this is not my native tongue

Dehede011: brb

leetheflirt: Besides, anyone who writes about a subject as much as Heinlien did about death has an obsession. I offer up the Marquies de Sade as a parrallel

BPRAL22169: The way you phrased it implied atheism and agnosticism were generated by the freethought movement, whereas the freethought movement more "collected" these people and put them in touch with each other.

BPRAL22169: You are using the term "obsession" very loosely and imprecisely.

BPRAL22169: You write about things you think are important and interesting.

leetheflirt: I mean, look at the beginning of TEFL, where LL once agin cheats death. Or the end of TSBTS

BPRAL22169: Heinlein thought human existence was tragic because of the fact of death, and that colored eveyrthing else he did.

Kultsi KN: Right, Bill: 'freethought' is a label for things that did exist -- but it did collect atheists and agnostics under that banner, right?

BPRAL22169: Excuse me, that's not quite right -- I meant human existence is tragic because of isolation -- we are each trapped inside our own skull and the central problem of our existence is to make contact.

leetheflirt: well, yes, but we all do. It was the EXTENT of the writing he did on the subject that's the red flag

DavidWrightSr: "You aren't really there. There isn't anybody but me--Jane--here alone in the dark. I miss you terribly". I always thought that that was his most poignant passage. I see how it could fit.

DavidWrightSr: I still disagree, Lee. If you look at the total works, that is only a relatively small portion of it.

leetheflirt: BTW, this may seem a bit unfair here, but my husband Alexis (Gilliland, for those who don't know) is here, he met RAH twice, I've met him several times, and we both think he did have a thing about dying No disrespect intened, Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Did he say something to you that would have indicated that?

Dehede011: Lee, now you have sort of circled back to my first question about RAH?

DavidWrightSr: Or are you still interpreting from his writings?

leetheflirt: Both

leetheflirt: Please follow as this is subtle - he refused to discuss death

leetheflirt: And yet, his works are riddled with cheating it, not dying

Dehede011: I believe that HSSWT gets into his solution to life under those circumstances doesn't it?

DavidWrightSr: Howso?

Dehede011: I believe his solution was along the lines of our having to meet life gallantly

leetheflirt: HSSWT? sorry, I'm used to proper titles. I go blank with initials

DavidWrightSr: _Have Space Suit - Will Travel_

leetheflirt: ok thanks

Dehede011: Or death gallantly.

BPRAL22169: Is there more of your argument?

DavidWrightSr: And meet death gallantly, if necessary.

leetheflirt: I have no prob that he met life gallantly and joyfully - and had one hell of a lot of fun

Dehede011: But other wise death had no solution???

BPRAL22169: Because, you know, it's all tied up with religion in most peoples' ideas, and he refused to discuss religion, too.

BPRAL22169: He had his own ideas, and unless you were an intimate he didn't discuss them at all.

leetheflirt: And met death galantly, sure. That does not mean the end of life worried him

Dehede011: That seems odd somehow, Bill? He discussed everything else openly and freely.

leetheflirt: OK, so are you basing your assesment on interviews with intimates, then?

jilyd has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: No, Ron -- he gave the illusion of discussing everything openly and freely. Heinlein was a master of controlling the context.

jilyd: Good evening, all. I see some names that are new to me.

Dehede011: Ah.

BPRAL22169: I've read 80+ years of correspondence, Lee.

Kultsi KN: hi, Dee!

leetheflirt: I think the fact he was willing to write about something that frightened him made him a very great hero

starfall2: hi, dee!

Dehede011: Hi, Miss Dee

DavidWrightSr: Lee, I still have to disagree. A lack of evidence is not proof of anything and the 'riddling' that you speak of is, IMHO, an exeragerration. He has many incidences of 'death' in his works.

Infobabefgh has entered the room.

Infobabefgh: Hello all

Dehede011: Howdy, info

Kultsi KN: Hi, I'm Kultsi; who are you?

DavidWrightSr: Do you really believe that he was more afraid of death than anyone else?

Kultsi KN: I hail from Finland

Infobabefgh: It's Felicia

starfall2: hi

Infobabefgh: I know

BPRAL22169: A lot of new handles tonight.

Infobabefgh: old handle, but I haven't used it here before

leetheflirt: OK, we disagree. To get back to his feelings about nature, his "Humands always will dominate" was a recurring theme

Kultsi KN: duh! fgh shoulda told me...

DavidWrightSr: For everyone's information, LNC cancelled the meeting for tonight, so we have been carrying on more or less off-topic.

Infobabefgh: More like "human spirit always will dominate"

jilyd: When is Saturday scheduled for? WHat time? Want to let JMA know.

DavidWrightSr: Saturday 5:00 P.M. EDT.

BPRAL22169: He raised the idea that man is a wild animal in I think STarship Troopers, and Poul Anderson made a very cogent counterargument -- that man is the first animal to be domesticated.

Kultsi KN: JMA's gonna attend?

leetheflirt: And sometimes that bothered me - Terraforming every planet we land on?

leetheflirt: lol I like that one

Kultsi KN: most we must

BPRAL22169: I don't recall much terraforming going on -- I thought they simply only used earth-like planets

leetheflirt: BTW< Alexis says "But it took women to do it"

DavidWrightSr: Not always. Have you read _Time For the Stars_ lately. See what their orders were if they found inhabited or planets that needed terraforming.

BPRAL22169: Ganymede in FITS, of course.

Kultsi KN: Bill -- that implies that female's the real wild thing

BPRAL22169: And doesn't that comport with your experience, Kultsi?

DavidWrightSr: Isn't that what RAH always said? O:-)

Infobabefgh: Don't ever get one mad

Kultsi KN: indeed it does

leetheflirt: Red Planet, Podkayne, TMIAHM

Infobabefgh: ;-)

BPRAL22169: There was terraforming in Red Planet? I don't recall. No terraforming in TMIAHM. Living in domed colonies is not terraforming.

DavidWrightSr: P & T, I would agree, but RP had almost no female presence, except for Jim's sister and mother, who played no part whatsoever.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, you were speaking of terraforming. me bad

Dehede011: Red Planet. Terraforming was what they were there for as I recall

BPRAL22169: If Alexis is there, say "hi" for me -- we had a brief correspondence years ago, and I've enjoyed all his books.

leetheflirt: they were remaking the planet to human standards - isn't that terraforming? It doesn't neccessarily mean puting in a breathable atmosphere, just making the place friendly to humans

DavidWrightSr: Technically, it was to restore what it had once been, IIRC, releasing all of the oxygen that had become combined into the soil.

leetheflirt: Bill, what's your full name he asks

BPRAL22169: Bill Patterson -- William H. Patterson, jr. I used to publish a fanzine Quodlibet.

BPRAL22169: ISTR that must have been before he started publishing the Rocinante books.

BPRAL22169: Early 80's probably.

leetheflirt: you live in Washington?

BPRAL22169: Nope -- San Francisco at the time. I'm in Santa Cruz now.

leetheflirt: He says hi how has life been?

BPRAL22169: Passing strange!

leetheflirt: he also says he'd say "Live long and prosper" but that's inappropriate in a Heinlien discussion

BPRAL22169: I publish The Heinlein Journal nowadays -- that takes up all my energies. That and the biography.

BPRAL22169: There's a photo of RAH giving the Vulcan peace sign while giving blood.

leetheflirt: lol yep

Dehede011: BTW, is Elenor Wood reporting any progress yet??

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of THJ, when is the next issue coming?

DavidWrightSr: I can definitely say that, yes, I believe that RAH thought highly of adapting the environment to suit humans. Why not? We are a part of nature and all of nature tries to adapt nature where they can to accomodate it.

DavidWrightSr: Beaver dams, lions stalking veldebeest, birds building nests, and so on.

BPRAL22169: I'm trying to get organized to have it printed in early August.

BPRAL22169: Haven't heard anything back from Scribner's or Tor yet.

leetheflirt: And there is always a dominant species. Always.

BPRAL22169: Some of that is storytelling conventions.

leetheflirt: I think that stemmed from actual belief - humans have this funny tendancy to come out on top

DavidWrightSr: I think that RAH was aware that nature could be ruined, but had no qualms about reasonable adaptation. Look at _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_

leetheflirt: Yea, there was quite a bit about the ruined earth in To Sail Beyond the Sunset

DavidWrightSr: Come on everyone. We have two subthreads going. one 'Heinlein and Nature' and "Heinlein's 'fear' of death". Anyone care to comment on either? or on another subject. I'm easy ;-)

leetheflirt: not touching that one....

BPRAL22169: See, women are wiser . . .

Infobabefgh: I'm afraid with getting the girls to bed, what I'm going to have to say is, "good night."

leetheflirt: lol

Infobabefgh: Bye

Infobabefgh has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Good night Felicia. say hello to Joel.

LVPPakaAspie has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: We had two authors' wives here tonight. Lee and Felicia, who is Joel Rosenberg's wife.

LVPPakaAspie: Pretty good turnout without a moderator

Kultsi KN: I'm about ready to drop off -- g'nght, everybody

starfall2: goodnight!

Dehede011: Night, Kultsi

leetheflirt: Night - hey Felicia, Alexis says hey

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Don. We have been trying to carry on without our fearless leader. Two subthreads going 'Heinlein and Nature' and "Heinlein's 'fear' of death". Comment on either or on anything that strikes your fancy.

Kultsi KN has left the room.

leetheflirt: Except Michael Jackson

BPRAL22169: I think that counts as "fear of death."

DavidWrightSr: Any 'Michaels' discussed should be Valentine or Mycroft.

leetheflirt: nah fear of freaks

BPRAL22169: Certainly not anything nature about that.

DavidWrightSr: :-)

leetheflirt: lol soo true

toxdoc1947: time for me to wind down a little

toxdoc1947: I'll see whomever is here on Saturday if I can

DavidWrightSr: See ya then.

toxdoc1947 has left the room.

leetheflirt: see ya

Dehede011: Bill, you mentioned Fiske having introduced RAH to the ideas behind GS. Which one of the Fiske boys was that??

DavidWrightSr: General Semantics, Lee

leetheflirt: ia

leetheflirt: ta

BPRAL22169: Hold on -- John Fiske, I think. I've got Outline of Cosmic Philosophy out.

Dehede011: Okay, thank you.

RichardFctn: I found this statement in Wikipedia.

DavidWrightSr: That title sounds more like preparation for Ouspensky than Korzybski.

DavidWrightSr: GA Richard

BPRAL22169: Yes, that's right -- John Fiske. Darwinian.

RichardFctn: ...Korzybski influnced Robert Heinlein

BPRAL22169: Spencerian.

Dehede011: Thank you

Dehede011: Who did OUTLINE OF COSMIC PHILOSOPHY??

BPRAL22169: "Cosmic" didn't necessarily mean anything woo-woo in 1895/

BPRAL22169: John Fiske. And I see it's "Outlines"

BPRAL22169: 2 vols.

Dehede011: TU

BPRAL22169: First volume starts out with Spencer's solution to the Kantian dilemma.

BPRAL22169: Kant-Hume debate. Segues into what we would now call semiotics.

BPRAL22169: So when he ran into Ogden & Richards, he had been through all the pre-Dewey work already.

Dehede011: Okay

Dehede011: So this is a guy that had been very concerned with language for a long time.

BPRAL22169: Yes, since his teenage years.

BPRAL22169: ca. 1923

Dehede011: I'm fascinated by your comment that he was a master at controlling context.

BPRAL22169: Oh, yes. Heinlein lied more by telling the strict truth than anyone else I know of.

leetheflirt: He was in love with what he could do with words - he played with them.

BPRAL22169: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: That I can agree with Lee. O:-)

BPRAL22169: Words -- and viewpoints. He worked on that multiple-first person technique for at least 20 years.

DavidWrightSr: As in _The Number Of The Beast_?

BPRAL22169: Yes.

BPRAL22169: I think the first time it's mentioned is in the 1950's

leetheflirt: Well, he had so much fun with finding just the right turn of phrases

Dehede011: Yes, I have to wonder what was in that drawer he called his "laboratory?"

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, we'll never know.

DavidWrightSr: I still maintain that a primary technique was 'not saying' something so that the read had to fill it in.

DavidWrightSr: reader

Dehede011: That intrigues me as I did something similar with my poetry way back when

BPRAL22169: Yes, I'm sure you're right, David.

Dehede011: BTW, David, that was a common techneque for writing love letters when I was in the Navy.

Dehede011: technique

DavidWrightSr: Bill, there is so much influence from Korzybski in his works. I have wondered what he thought about it in the later years.

leetheflirt: I have a feeling the stuff in his "lab" was the stories that weren't good enough to publish that he mined for ideas

DavidWrightSr: So that's where he learned it.:-D

Dehede011: Could be but Ginny got mad as hell when I mentioned that to her once.

Dehede011: :-D

BPRAL22169: He said a bit about Korzybski in the 1973 Neil Schulman interview.

BPRAL22169: I had the impression from what Ginny said that it wasn't "stories" so much as fragments.

Dehede011: But, Bill, you have put his comments about K into a different context here tonigh, or so it seems to me.

BPRAL22169: How's that, Ron?

DavidWrightSr: I read that once, but don't have it now and have forgotten what he said.

BPRAL22169: He tried to talk epistemology in Korzybsky terms but didn't get very far -- Schulman didn't know any epistempology but Rand.

Dehede011: K did not introduce him to gs thought so much as provide a culmination

DavidWrightSr: I'm not sure how to understand that.

BPRAL22169: Well -- I'd say more like, he put the semantics/semiotics stuff he had picked up into a more useful context -- turned it into a "social engineering" tool.

Dehede011: Bill has provided us three writers that had preceeded K I believe.

BPRAL22169: Don't forget Charles Sanders Peirce.

Dehede011: Four

DavidWrightSr: But the full idea of GS as Korzybski wrote only related to those writers, If I understand it.

BPRAL22169: As I understand it, Korzybski really invented G.S. from the ground up more concerned with Russell, Whitehead, Wittgenstein, and Eric Temple Bell -- another one he said was a BIG influence on him

BPRAL22169: the last "he' being Heinlein, not AK

Dehede011: My point is that RAH had built up to K whereas most of us have to jump right in full force.

DavidWrightSr: Right.

BPRAL22169: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: Dive right in. S&S is only 800 odd pages long. 8-)

DavidWrightSr: And very soporific.

BPRAL22169: AK was absolutely horrible as a teacher.

Dehede011: Yes, that is in the interview with Heinlein

BPRAL22169: You really get that impression when you read Science & Sanity - he uses concepts he doesn't bother to define for 400 pages.

leetheflirt: Does RAH say much about who he considered his teachers?

Dehede011: But, didn't RAH say K was better as a speaker than a writer.

BPRAL22169: Several remarks, Lee, about different things. He says he "got his ideas about socialism" from Will Durant.

DavidWrightSr: There is one aspect of RAH's writing in relation to K that I am still having problems with. RAH' notion of 'no thinking without symbols' is definitely non-Korzybskian, unless you define 'thinking' differently from K.

LVPPakaAspie: I was never sure I agreed with that, either. We come up with symbols as needed.

leetheflirt: A lot of what he said in his novels reminds one of Voltaire in the knowledgeable twinkle

BPRAL22169: That was kind of the idea about language that was "in the air" inthe 1930's and 40's

Dehede011: Ladies and Gentlemen, I love your conversation, but my sitter has gone numb

Dehede011: Bye

leetheflirt: night

DavidWrightSr: If you restrict 'thinking' to 'sub-vocalization' then he could be right, but K definitely treated 'thinking' as the 'organism-as-a-whole' with the first level of abstraction on the 'unspeakable' level and grading up from ..no -30-

Dehede011 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: there to symbols and symbols about symbols.

BPRAL22169: Several times and in different contexts. But he doesn't seem to have been formed by her -- they were too contemporaneous for that, I think.

BPRAL22169: Sorry -- that was in answer to something Lee said offline.

leetheflirt: oops sorry Billwas replying to what I asked off line about Ayn Rand

BPRAL22169: He liked Fountainhead as a way of talking about art -- technique

leetheflirt: I was wondering about what he thought of the philosophical underpinnings

BPRAL22169: I think the statementin TMIAHM that he could "get along with" a Randite is pretty accurate.

BPRAL22169: or, rather, that Prof could .. .

BPRAL22169: Not solid agreement, but a lot of notions in common.

leetheflirt: ok

BPRAL22169: I'm not sure that there was "philosophical' agreement, but he had a living sense of the importance of America as an idea that was very compatible with Rand's.

BPRAL22169: I think he was much more community-oriented than Rand was, so he couldn't take the same positions on the same ideas.

BPRAL22169: Remember, he's an early 20th century progressive, Jeffersonian individualist, whereas she's a 19th century (nietzschean) individualist.

leetheflirt: I think he had a higher opinion of people

BPRAL22169: Possibly.

leetheflirt: (He's also more fun to read, but I didn't say that)

BPRAL22169: Though I think he vacillated on that -- he certainly seemed to verge over to Mark Twain's "damned human race"

BPRAL22169: But you couldn't say stuff like that, particularly not in the 1950's and particularly not to kids.

leetheflirt: He had a wonderful Twanian (is that a word?) phraseology

BPRAL22169: Yeah. Some of them were actually lifted out of Twain -- the "swing a cat" phrase, for instance.

leetheflirt: was that Twain?

BPRAL22169: Yes -- either Adventures of Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn

BPRAL22169: I disremember which

leetheflirt: I do remember the scene in TSITS where she and her father have him over - I turned puce green with envy

BPRAL22169: TSITS?

leetheflirt: hey, this is the group to ask

BPRAL22169: TSBTS?

DavidWrightSr: _To Sail Beyond The Sunset_

BPRAL22169: K

leetheflirt: To Sail Into the Sunset sorry

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- Puce Green.

leetheflirt: lol

BPRAL22169: Like a queen anne cherry, I guess.

leetheflirt: there is a short story with some people who climb Mount Shasta - I can't find my copy - they meet someone in the snowstorm?

BPRAL22169: "Lost Legacy." in Assignment in Eternity

leetheflirt: yes. What was the name of the author they meet?

BPRAL22169: Ambrose Bierce

DavidWrightSr: That was Ambrose Bierce

leetheflirt: BLESS YOU! I can slep tonight!

BPRAL22169: He had disappeared in Mexico in 1914.

BPRAL22169: That's me, Mr. Melatonin.

leetheflirt: lolol it's that neither of us could remember and it's been driving me up the wall

BPRAL22169: You would have sat bolt upright at 3:00 a.m.

leetheflirt: lol probably but it's been two days

leetheflirt: he dissappeared?

DavidWrightSr: Anytime you have that problem, just sign on to A.F.H and ask.

BPRAL22169: Yes -- that's why he was in the story. (I don't think Judge Crater made it in, but he was a baddie)

DavidWrightSr: Probably the same fate as Zebulon Carter8-)

leetheflirt: thanks, dummy me, I didn't think of it :-[

BPRAL22169: It was a big mystery for decades, but the truth is, he was following -- Zapata, I think it was, and he was probably killed.

BPRAL22169: His communications to his secretary, the night before he disappeared, indicate he was going on a troop trainthe next day.

leetheflirt: Well following rebels is frequently bad for the health

BPRAL22169: Just so.

leetheflirt: Anyway, it's been a slice, see you guys (hopefully) Saturday

BPRAL22169: Pleasant to make contact.

leetheflirt has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: See you, Lee.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Too slow again.

DavidWrightSr: All right, we are left with all of the lurkers. Now is your time to shine.

RichardFctn: Nice evening, Thanks All! Bye

RichardFctn has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Well, that star extinguished

DavidWrightSr: Dee, Don, Jackie and GC, (sorry forgot your name).?

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hang on a sec Bill, I don' have rahstudies in my list, I'll have to add it

BPRAL22169: Lisa Edmonds (rahstudies) is the head of the Heinlein section of the PCA/ACA

BPRAL22169: brb

rahstudies has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Ah, good, you made it.

rahstudies: Yes--thank you for inviting me in.

DavidWrightSr: Ok lurkers, you are off the hook temporarily.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Lisa. Welcome

BPRAL22169: back

GreedyCapitalist: sorry, I was actually chatting about Heinlein in another channel

DavidWrightSr: That's ok. Anything interesting from there?

GreedyCapitalist: I'm David btw

BPRAL22169: We're in the last half hour of a general discussion that has been mostly about "Heinlein's attitudes toward nature," and -- what was the second topic?

DavidWrightSr: Oh Bog, another David >:o

DavidWrightSr: his 'fear of death'

GreedyCapitalist: my friend just read Stranger, and we were discussing the grokking and the free love

BPRAL22169: Lee Gilland, Alexis Gilliland's wife, just signed off.

rahstudies: I am presently working on my new Heinlein Studies website. Any suggestions about a general theme for next year's PCA conference?

GreedyCapitalist: oh Bog- haven't heard that expression in a while

BPRAL22169: Actually we've just lost several people, haven't we?

BPRAL22169: Tell him/her to read The Martian Named Smith now!:-)

DavidWrightSr: Yes, after you left, I was about to close up shop unless I could get the lurkers to speak up. David(GC)'s comment was in response to that. Haven't heard anything from Dee or Don or Jackie

DavidWrightSr: I highly recommend it. Unfortunately, I loaned my copy to my son who is now in Wisconsin and haven't been able to get it back.

GreedyCapitalist: Amazon has a suplus of copies

BPRAL22169: In that case, you must buy another copy, mustn't you?

DavidWrightSr: Not on the budget that my wife give me ;-)

BPRAL22169: You maybe able to get one of the rare and valuable unsigned copies.

DavidWrightSr: I'm saving up for the biography.

BPRAL22169: I regret to say it's probably going to be expensive -- two 600 page volumes, probably.

BPRAL22169: (and in these days, Tor is taking single books and cutting them into two)

DavidWrightSr: Wow, that's bigger than Asimov's, I do believe. But, after all, why not?

BPRAL22169: Well -- Asimov did four autobiographies, more or less -- and his brother and his wife have done two selections of letters. Asimov is still the winnah and champeen.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, but who cares? O:-)

BPRAL22169: I can't remember -- did the Meisha Merlin site say that they're planning 3 vols. of letters?

BPRAL22169: 450,000 words altogether.

DavidWrightSr: I don't recall.

DavidWrightSr: I won't be able to afford that at all. Way out of my league.

BPRAL22169: They were going to do those plus Grumbles, but I think I've got them talked out of that.

BPRAL22169: What you need to do is talk your local library into buyingit.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I'll try, but they are tightwads.

BPRAL22169: I think that's the only real solution for most people. The upfront cost is prohibitive, isn't it?

BPRAL22169: We do seem to be winding down, don't we?

DavidWrightSr: I believe that it works out to over $50 a volume. Well, I could have been happy with that, one book at a time, (even though I think that's too high), but a $1000 or whatever up front.

jilyd: Sorry, David, I have been keeping a half eye onthings, but doing some work-tyoe work, too.

DavidWrightSr: Well, we could try to get Lisa to comment on Nature In Heinlein or his 'fear of death'.

rahstudies: In regards to "Nature," I am percolating on an exploration of animal imagery throughout the various works. It may crystallize in time for Atlanta.

DavidWrightSr: What's that about Atlanta. I live north of there. In fact, I was born and raised there.

rahstudies: Atlanta 2006--the National PCA/ACA conference. The home of Robert A. Heinlein Studies

BPRAL22169: That's where next year's PCA/ACA annual meeting is being held.

BPRAL22169: You could start with his distinction between "animal" and "beast."

DavidWrightSr: Great. Maybe I'll be able to make it. When's it scheduled.

BPRAL22169: Ends on the Saturday before Easter Sunday

rahstudies: April 12-16, but our panels will probably only take place on one or two consecutive days

BPRAL22169: San Diego's 12 hour Thursday was a bit much!

LVPPakaAspie: What is PCA/ACA?

DavidWrightSr: I hope to retire Feb 28, so, money permitting, I just might be able to make it.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, whatever happened to Rachel Luckman's paper?

rahstudies: Popular Culture Association/American Culture Association

rahstudies: Bill, it's a long story--remind me to tell you sometime,

BPRAL22169: OK

BPRAL22169: I was kind of looking forward to it, after her Heinlein 101 piece

jilyd: Thanks for asking, Don, I was backtracking to see if I missed an earlier ask.

rahstudies: I am brainstorming the general theme for 2006' conference. Any ideas?

rahstudies: Last year's, if you recall, was "Heinlein and the Liberal Arts and Sciences"

DavidWrightSr: Can I add your e-mail address to our notification list for this group?

DavidWrightSr: Or do I have it already?

BPRAL22169: Could so something with "The Man Who Sold Us the Moon"

rahstudies: As soon as I get my new website up, it will be pca@rahstudies.org

rahstudies: I was thinking something to do with defining humanity or the future.

DavidWrightSr: Hmm. Heinlein and the Future? Might be something there.O:-)

BPRAL22169: "I think I have been most influenced in my views by T.H. Huxley, Eric T. Bell, Alfred Korzybski, parts of H.G. Wells' writings, and Socrates (the Apologia)."

BPRAL22169: I finally found a quote I was looking for earlier, for Lee.

DavidWrightSr: Hey. I might have my have my magnum opus on Korzybski Influences finished by then. Maybe I could do a panel. :-P

rahstudies: Deadline for proposals will be Oct. 15th, probably. You've got some time.

DavidWrightSr: Heck. Won't be anywhere near finished by then. Oh well.

rahstudies: I've seen people present sections of works in progress. We'd love to have you.

BPRAL22169: Where would you put that kind of presentation, Lisa? Not quite literary theory.

BPRAL22169: May have to make up a whole new classification for you, David.

DavidWrightSr: I'll see where I am by then. Mostly right now, I am just collecting notes from his works and from K's works. Not sure at all how I am going to be able to present it properly.

rahstudies: Well, until the proposals start rolling in, I really don't start dividing up panels. I'd put him with similar themes.

DavidWrightSr: I've always been outside the box. Hey, he didn't mention Ouspensky in that quote. In the bio sketch, you mentioned as being a 'philosophical influence' as I recall.

rahstudies: I'd love a panel or two titled "H and ----: Comparison and Contrast," or something to that effect. This year I want more papers discussing H alongside others.

BPRAL22169: I may have been inexact. What I concluded was that he latched onto Ouspensky (possibly referred by Leslyn?) because he put together many elements H had been playing with for a very long time.

BPRAL22169: That "Heinlein and X" topic has potential, doesn'

BPRAL22169: t it?

rahstudies: That's what I like the most. I'm going to emphasize that idea.

BPRAL22169: He took from a lot of people but always distinguished his own positions.

BPRAL22169: Wells is a very good candidate for that. I wonder if we can get a real Wells scholar to present.

DavidWrightSr: Well, of course, I could compare K's influence in heinlein with those in Van Vogt. :0)

rahstudies: I will certainly plumb the depths. Good scholarship must put H in conversation critically with contemporaries and other luminaries. He is not an end unto himself.

BPRAL22169: Hmmm. You like to tread dangerous ground, don't you?

rahstudies: ?

BPRAL22169: Sorry -- that particular remark was addressed to David Wrignt.There's something I'd really like to see

BPRAL22169: Heinlen's subsequent influences not necessarily in SF -- people who were influenced by him.

BPRAL22169: Lets us open up things like the Sci-Fi film boom of the 1950's as well as mysteries and other fields.

DavidWrightSr: I haven't read Van Vogt in quite a while. He was actually my first intro do GS, but since I have been studying it more seriously, I have read a number of things which are very critical of him.

BPRAL22169: Yeah, van Vogt's presentation of GS concepts was very dubious.

BPRAL22169: That thing about "9 decimals of similarity" in World of Null A is completely antithetical to G.S.

rahstudies: Sometimes you learn the best--and strengthen your ideas best--through criticism

BPRAL22169: I think that's true -- and the dialog RAH started with Starship Troopers has certainly been fruitful over the decades.

DavidWrightSr: Well, folks, I've got to call it a night. I am going to close the log officially, but if you guys continue on and say anything that you would like to have included in the log, please don't hesitate to save a copy and send it to me

DavidWrightSr: dwrighsr@alltel.net

DavidWrightSr: Anything else before I go?

BPRAL22169: Thanks, david. I just noticed the time. We meet usually once a month, from 6-9 p.m PDT, Lisa.

BPRAL22169: Then on Saturday -- 2:00 PDT, I think?

DavidWrightSr: We will be back Saturday at 5:00 PM EDT, yest 2:00 PDT, I think.

rahstudies: Okay--it's 11 p.m. here. Past my bedtime.

BPRAL22169: Thanks everyone. See you Saturday probably.

rahstudies: If I'm here at that time, I'll drop in.

BPRAL22169: g'night.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Ok then. Log officially close at 12:04 P.M.

rahstudies: Night

rahstudies has left the room.


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