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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 06-08-2000 9:00 PM

'Black Pits of Luna','It's Great To Be Back' and '--We Also Walk Dogs'

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From: AGplusone

Topic: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

[Editor's Note: The thread title contains a typo. It should read June 8 instead of June 7.

Messages 3,5 and 7 omitted as not being relevant to topic discussion.]

Message: 1 of 16

Sent: 04 Jun 2000 20:33:39 GMT

The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group (aka Heinlein Readers Group)

Notice of Chat Meetings

Thursday, June 8, from 9 PM to midnight, EDT and Saturday, June 10, 2000, from 5 to 8 PM, EDT

Our regular chat meetings to be held on AIM this week will continue discussion of the Future History stories, including "The Black Pits of Luna," '"It's Great To Be Back,"' and "--We Also Walk Dogs."

To attend the meeting AIM freeware (version 3.0 or higher) may be obtained from http://www.aol.com and should be installed and tested prior to the meeting.

Windows 95 or higher and Macintosh versions are available. Entry into the room may require an invitation, and you should notify by email AGplusone@aol.com of the name you have chosen to register as yours well before the meeting so that it may be placed on the 'buddy list' used to monitor on-line presence and thereby avoid a delay in entering the room.

[Editor's Note: A shortcut link into the chat room for w95/98 users can be found by clicking on Heinlein Readers Group. When the code shows on your screen, click on 'File' and 'Save' and save without changing name to your desktop. This shortcut will work only after you install the AIM software]

All three of these stories may be found in the collection _The Past Through Tomorrow_ and _The Green Hills of Earth_. The first two, "The Black Pits of Luna" and '"It's Great To Be Back,"' posit contrasting types of colonists for space.

What is it about the qualities present in successful pioneers that Robert Heinlein deeply believed that these stories illustrate? How often did he return to this theme in other works? What rings true? What not? Are there contrasting illustrations in Earth's own space programs recently that might profit from review of these points?

An incidental note by James Gifford, in his recently published _Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader's Companion_ observes that a partially published earlier work relates to "Black Pits," an article that appeared in Elks Magazine, January 1947, one of the so-called failures among RAH's immediate post W.W. II 'save the world' attempts. The article was entitled "Back of the Moon," and the Elks published only the first half which described a potential danger of 'Atomic Peace'--the now disproved theory that experimental nuclear chain reactions could get out of control and literally set Earth on fire, turning the planet into a nova. Heinlein proposed that such experimentation be conducted on the backside of Luna and detailed how in the unpublished second half of the article which the Elks did not publish and returned. In this half which has remained unpublished Heinlein again urges a world government and effectively a _Pax Americana_, echoing an H.G. Wells radio address of the same year.

Significantly, while it went unpublished, elements were 'high-graded,' i.e., used in other stories, appearing in "Blowups Happen," "Gulf," and _To Sail Beyond The Sunset_. In the published portion of "Back of the Moon" RAH presented a catastrophe of 1955, in which two scientists, Maurice Feinstein and Thomas Dooley, have a moment's inattention resulting in disaster, with a plant exploding and taking the eastern half of the United States (and subsequently much of the world, by fallout or otherwise) with it. In the unpublished half, by contrast, a vacationing couple visit the moon and there observe the site of the analogue Great Disaster in which there is a crater of a nuclear lab explosion on Luna's back side, in which six unnamed scientists lost their lives. In "Black Pits" which we are reading this week, the same Great Disaster appears (here, of '1984'); and the scientists' names include Dooley and Feinstein.

The push for world government had its heighday in the late 1940s and early 1950s. The more idealistic among those who answered President Truman's call to arms for the 'police action' in Korea had that idea firmly in their minds. See, e.g., Pat Frank's _Hold Back The Night_ (J.B. Lippincott Co., NYC, 1951). Between 1954's armistice and the 1960s Vietnam, the idea seems to have died. Disadvantages are seen clearly, and those disadvantages seem to outweigh any advantage. For one recent typical science-fiction treatment and explication of this theme, see, e.g., Ian Douglas' _Semper Mars_ (Avon, ISBN 0-380-78828-4, 1998). We've had several early instances of Heinlein's postulated world government both among these Future History short stories and among the juveniles, and also in short works "outside" the Future History and some of the later novels, e.g., Methuselah's Children_ and _Stranger In A Strange Land_ there appears others examples. Can we conclude anything specific about what RAH proposed and how that may have changed in later novels?

Finally, "--We Also Walk Dogs" also found in the same collections, is a story which many may feel should have formed the basis of other tales; but which should not be properly be part of the Future History itself. Why not? Do you disagree? What attracts you specifically to this story? The references to and connections between art and engineering attract me personally, but am I correct in seeing this story as part of a coherent discussion of that relationship, continued in _The Door Into Summer_ and _Stranger In A Strange Land_?

There are many other points that might be raised about this and the earlier two stories. What would you talk about in the chat? Please remember to post your thoughts before our meeting, as experience has shown the more posts we have, the better our discussion.

See you all Thursday and Saturday.

[Note: I appreciated the concern several expressed a few weeks back when they heard about my mother's illness. She appears to be on a long, slippery road to recovery, is free of pneumonia and now breathing unassisted once again, although she will be on oxygen for the remainder of her life, and may soon recover enough to return home from the hospitals. Thank you all for your kindnesses.]

David

-- David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 2 of 16 (In response to AGplusone)

Sent: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:59:02 -0400

I haven't got ARC yet so I look forward to reading the bit about the unpublished story David; sounds intriguing.

I had a quick look through he three stories and jotted down a few points; Black Pits -

This seems to me to be a short story version of Poddy in some ways but with a less intelligent family (except the hero). Both parents exhibit stupidity, unfairness and bad manners. The younger, unnamed child, only given the insulting title of "Baby Darling" or "The Runt" is as obnoxious as Clark but without his genius. Dickie is bright and like Poddy is weighed down with a self assumed responsibility for his younger brother and to a certain extent, his parents, whom he views with an objective, observant and mildly critical eye. The story ends with the wheat being sorted from the chaff; his family is warned not to return, Dickie is accepted as belonging, part of the elite.

Adding up the failings of the parents in this story makes for an astounding amount of black marks against them. The only mitigating circumstance is that they are in unfamiliar territory. Yet going somewhere unprepared when there is an opportunity to do research can be seen as the initial error. They are totally unable to control their younger child ( why is he spoiled when his brother isn't?) and I get the feeling that to a certain extent Dickie has learned how to manipulate them out of necessity. His father gives in to the demands of BD ( Baby darling) and takes him out on the surface; risking his life is less important than losing face from a scene and the gibe from Mr Latham. When BD is lost his mother has hysterics and faints. The crowd of tourists are shown to be as stupid as she is; someone tries to suggest they take her helmet off. Someone else says he has to be found by sundown; doesn't realise that it's different on the Moon and doesn't spot that the main danger is lack of oxygen. Mrs Logan then recovers enough to wonder if bloodhounds would be a good idea. Mr Logan mentions helicopters, does realise that he's said something silly but digs the hole deeper by amending this to rockets. He also tries to fight with Mr Perrin when he tells him that it's his fault BD is lost.

Contrast this flurry of idiocy with the lead; he switches off the radio link and _thinks_. Remember Gulf and the sign of a superman? He's not that maybe but he's showing that he's better equipped than all the other tourists. After a while he comes up with the idea of trying to follow his brother's trail by the 'lost mule trick' ( What is that btw?). He is exhausted, numb from cold but refuses to give up; like the heroes in Gentlemen Be Seated. Again this heroism is in sharp contrast to his father who tries to pay for his son's rescue.

Great To Be Back is again a wheat from chaff story but in this case it seems at first that the MacRae's are chaff. Despite three years in Luna they are still homesick. Others know they belong; Miss Stone ( hmm...sounds familiar!) their landlord knows them better than they know themselves. They head back for Earth and in hours are starting to feel homesick again; for Luna. They have to come to the understanding that they won't fit in back on earth because, like young Dick Logan, they have that little bit extra that makes them part of the space going elite. It has to be said that they don't seem all that special but maybe that's just me :-) They aren't heroes and the trials they undergo on Earth are fairly small but that's OK; every story can't involve drama.

I think one point about this story is that I noticed how many futuristic gadgets Heinlein slipped in; video phones, air taxis and such. He even plugs the Saturday Evening Post

We Also Walk Dogs is a fun story in some ways. As I've said before, I could see this being a book of short stories or even a series but that wasn't really Heinlein's style. Pity. It also has some subtle bits; we find out quite casually that Sance Francis and Grace Cormet are married; she's not only a working married woman but she's doing it under a maiden name. Plus she's quite willing to dye her hair and bleach her skin to flirt with someone to get the job done; with the full approval of her husband. Mildly shocking stuff for the time perhaps. Not sure if the skin bleaching means she's black; like Eunice she might be, might not be.

The one bit that jars is the priceless, fragile Ming bowl that she ( for some obscure reason) is carrying secreted about her person. I don't think so....not even any bubble wrap? Come on! Was it shoved in her bra the whole way back from England?

And no, it can't fit the FH but it's still fun. I love the side plot of Mrs Peter Van Hogbein Johnson.

Jane

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marga

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 4 of 16 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:28:50 -0500

ddavitt wrote in message

Black Pits -

....Adding up the failings of the parents in this story makes for an astounding amount of black marks against them. The only mitigating circumstance is that they are in unfamiliar territory. Yet going somewhere unprepared when there is an opportunity to do research can be seen as the initial error... The crowd of tourists are shown to be as stupid as she is....;

As somewhat of a side note, most people who have worked at a tourist area would say exactly the same types of things about a significant percentage of the visitors. I spent 3 years working at a Colorado ski area & my brother spent 2 summers working at Yellowstone National Park. We had a lot of fun comparing "idiot tourist" stories from both places & they were numerous. Without getting into a full blown discussion on whether common sense is all that common, many people lose whatever they had in an "unfamiliar territory" & few appear to actually have done anything to prepare. We Also Walk Dogs... I love the side plot of Mrs Peter Van Hogbein

Johnson.

Priceless satire IMO. marga

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 6 of 16 (In response to Marga)

Sent: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:07:41 -0400

Marga wrote:

We had a lot of fun comparing "idiot tourist" stories from both places & they were numerous. Without getting into a full blown discussion on whether common sense is all that common, many people lose whatever they had in an "unfamiliar territory" & few appear to actually have done anything to prepare.

I think that the Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared" is one that Heinlein would heartily endorse; fitting as a lot of his stories were written with a Scout readership in mind.

Heinlein gives us quite a few different pictures of who the pioneers would be and who would forever remain in the "idiot tourist" class. In Black Pits and Great To Be Back, the emphasis is on intelligence; the sort of specialised intelligence that goes with a well developed survival instinct perhaps. The people chosen to live on/in the moon are special, hand picked, an elite. Earth is shown as being for the groundhogs; not necessarily worthless by any means; remember the reporter in Gentleman Be Seated who was a hero and yet not suited for life off planet, but of a different sort. Yet this isn't always the case. It's evident from the background of Dogs that the planets are open to colonisation but the top staff and owners of General Services are quite content to remain on Earth despite seeming to have a lot of the qualities that would make them an asset to a new colony.

Heinlein doesn't always have his colonies populated by elites; indeed, as they grow it would be difficult to keep rigid restrictions in force. Compare the penal colony of MIAHM with the one in Great To Be Back for instance. Or the colony of miners and prostitutes on the Venus of PM. Sometimes his frontiers are wild and woolly; sometimes, like Ganymede, in FITS, they are tamer as regards the people, though the natural hazards are still lurking. In all cases though, those who can't adapt are winnowed out; there's no way of bribing a hostile environment.

To sum up, these three stories all seem to be examining people who are special. Heinlein likes these people and feels no shame in showing them as being admirable because of their special qualities. This bothers some people I think......

Jane

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Gray

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 8 of 16 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:41:44 -0400

ddavitt wrote:

....After a while he comes up with the idea of trying to follow his brother's trail by the 'lost mule trick' ( What is that btw?....).

I took it to mean the trick of thinking "If I were a mule, where would I go?" and following your instincts in that vein. Which is basically what Dickie did...getting into his brother's mindset to figure out where he'd have gone.

Jim (in the middle of a massive dose of RAH) Gray

-- "Sin is cruelty and injustice, all else is pecadillo. Oh, a sense of sin comes from violating the customs of your tribe. But breaking customs is not sin even when it feels so; sin is wronging another person."

-Robert A.Heinlein, "Glory Road"

Homepage! Homepage! http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/PennTeddy/pttoybox.html

Screw the Corporations! Join the Alliance for Democracy!

http://afd-online.org/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trefor Thomas

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 9 of 16 (In response to Marga)

Sent: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:16:11 -0400 On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:28:50 -0500, "Marga" wrote:

As somewhat of a side note, most people who have worked at a tourist area would say exactly the same types of things about a significant percentage of the visitors. I spent 3 years working at a Colorado ski area & my brother spent 2 summers working at Yellowstone National Park. We had a lot of fun comparing "idiot tourist" stories from both places & they were numerous. Without getting into a full blown discussion on whether common sense is all that common, many people lose whatever they had in an "unfamiliar territory" & few appear to actually have done anything to prepare.

I have lived in tourist areas for about 20 years and have seen more than enough silly people (mostly boaters and swimmers). However, occasionally I find people who are tourists but don't look and/or act like it.

I just wonder how many of the people you write off as "local" (even if you don't know them) because they don't embarrass themselves in spectacular ways, are really well-integrated tourists? I mean, how would you know?

Trefor Thomas

To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marga

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 10 of 16 (In response to Trefor Thomas)

Sent: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:06:24 -0500 Trefor Thomas wrote in message

....I just wonder how many of the people you write off as "local" (even if you don't know them) because they don't embarrass themselves in spectacular ways, are really well-integrated tourists? I mean, how would you know?....

Trefor Thomas

Well...the out-of-state license plates are usually a pretty good indication . BTW, the fact that a tourist does not embarrass themselves (many locals do the same thing when they're "playing") simply means they have learned the basics of being a tourist which Jane wrote is "being prepared" for "unfamiliar territory" or as I wrote "using common sense".

marga

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David M. Silver

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 11 of 16 (In response to Marga)

Sent: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:14:00 -0700

Marga wrote:

....One thing I find notable in all of these 1940s-1950s written for popular magazine stories is how easily Heinlein ties the here and now into stories of the future of moon and space, by techniques that we all can see were designed to be recognizable such as the "dumb tourist" gag (or tragedy)....

This was a time of family magazine reading, after work and school was done, before the maglignant grey and white eye in the corner of the living room cast its spell on our society. I remember reading and being read to, from say age five or six onward, from those magazines. There were short stories and serialized novels that were designed to resonnate immediately for a family audience. They all had a certain touches of "commonality" like Heinlein's that the most TV shows shortly after then and now strive for but rarely touch. There is a great abandoned mine of reading in these old magazine pieces. I thought Heinlein did quite well among the writers of the day in these very well-subscribed magazines. I can think of C.S. Forrester's Hornblower series as an example of another author I can recall with joy from that time. Can you think of others?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Prnzofthvs

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 12 of 16 (In response to David M. Silver)

Sent: 07 Jun 2000 23:00:12 GMT

David M. Silver wrote: .... I can think of C.S. Forrester's Hornblower series as an example of another author I can recall with joy from that time. Can you think of others?....

Not really on-topic, but related: I remember reading a 1920's era National Geographic, in which one of the ads gave a good example of the mind-set of the elite of the time. The ad was for a cruise line, and one of the "advantages" they cited about their cruises was the fact that voyagers would be protected from excessive contact with the indigenous people at the various ports of call. Can you say "Ugly ________?" (fill in blank with your favorite country name)

Steve

"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

Franck (I love stealing clever sigs)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trefor Thomas

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 13 of 16 (In response to Marga)

Sent: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:05:27 -0400

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:06:24 -0500, "Marga" wrote:

Trefor Thomas wrote in message

...I just wonder how many of the people you write off as "local" (even if you don't know them) because they don't embarrass themselves in spectacular ways, are really well-integrated tourists? I mean, how would you know?.... Trefor Thomas

Well...the out-of-state license plates are usually a pretty good indication . BTW, the fact that a tourist does not embarrass themselves (many locals do the same thing when they're "playing") simply means they have learned the basics of being a tourist which Jane wrote is "being prepared" for "unfamiliar territory" or as I wrote "using common sense".....

I wasn't thinking of the long-distance traveler. Here in rural Ontario we get a lot of city-dwellers trying to escape for a weekend in the country. The gaffes may not be as many, but they can be quite spectacular. As an example, men taking a break from driving to relieve themselves should learn to recognize electrified cattle fence.:-D It may only be 40 volts, but it still smarts when applied to the right body parts! (Makes me cringe just thinking about it.)

Trefor Thomas

To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trefor Thomas

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 14 of 16 (In response to David M. Silver)

Sent: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:05:28 -0400 On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:14:00 -0700, "David M. Silver" wrote:

....One thing I find notable in all of these 1940s-1950s written for popular magazine stories is how easily Heinlein ties the here and now into stories of the future of moon and space, by techniques that we all can see were designed to be recognizable such as the "dumb tourist" gag (or tragedy). This was a time of family magazine reading, after work and school was done, before the maglignant grey and white eye in the corner of the living room cast its spell on our society. I remember reading and being read to, from say age five or six onward, from those magazines. There were short stories and serialized novels that were designed to resonnate immediately for a family audience. They all had a certain touches of "commonality" like Heinlein's that the most TV shows shortly after then and now strive for but rarely touch. There is a great abandoned mine of reading in these old magazine pieces. I thought Heinlein did quite well among the writers of the day in these very well-subscribed magazines. I can think of C.S. Forrester's Hornblower series as an example of another author I can recall with joy from that time. Can you think of others?....

Zane Grey and Louis L'Amour?

Damn! Now I'm going to have to start digging into my library again!

Trefor Thomas

To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 15 of 16 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:01:12 +1000

ddavitt wrote:

....I haven't got ARC yet so I look forward to reading the bit about the unpublished story David; sounds intriguing.

I had a quick look through he three stories and jotted down a few points; Black Pits -....

This seems to me to be a short story version of Poddy in some ways but with a less intelligent family (except the hero). Both parents exhibit stupidity, unfairness and bad manners. The younger, unnamed child, only given the insulting title of "Baby Darling" or "The Runt" is as obnoxious as Clark but without his genius. Dickie is bright and like Poddy is weighed down with a self assumed responsibility for his younger brother and to a certain extent, his parents, whom he views with an objective, observant and mildly critical eye. The story ends with the wheat being sorted from the chaff; his family is warned not to return, Dickie is accepted as belonging, part of the elite.

The title "The Black Pits of Luna" is interesting. What exactly are the "black pits"? I guess all the craters on the moon could be described as pits, but the most prominent one mentioned in the story is man-made.... the so called "disaster crater". Also, the rock out-croppings near this crater were filled with over-hangs and blow-holes (possibly created by the explosion), which could also be the pits mentioned in the title. Since Dickie finds the Runt in one of them, they play an important part in the story. But maybe as well as these pits, Heinlein is making a reference to the dark "PITfalls" that await those who are not adequately prepared for space? This theme is fairly strong here, both through the inexperience/ignorance of many of the tourists, and to a lesser extent the explosion which caused the crater in the first place.

Also, commemorative monuments of tragic events are fairly common in Heinlein stories. The first that springs to mind is for the "Kilroy" in Space Cadet. The monument near the crater here is equally dramatic... "HERE ABOUT YOU ARE THE MORTAL REMAINS OF (list of names) WHO DIED FOR THE TRUTH WHAT MAKES MEN FREE....". Stirring words which I feel have been repeated elsewhere, but can't remember where. Against this backdrop of tragedy the story of a lost child unfolds, this time with a happy ending. But the message is strong.... Ignore common sense or be ill-prepared, and you too (or those you are responsible for) could easily find tragedy. The black pits of Luna are a good reminder of all the pitfalls that await the unwary.

Sean gaeltach@fan.net.au

*****************

..... and now for something completely different:

Drowsy baby's word. ***************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM chat mtng, June 7 & 10, 2000

Message: 16 of 16 (In response to Trefor Thomas)

Sent: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:59:18 +1000

Trefor Thomas wrote:

....I wasn't thinking of the long-distance traveler. Here in rural Ontario we get a lot of city-dwellers trying to escape for a weekend in the country. The gaffes may not be as many, but they can be quite spectacular. As an example, men taking a break from driving to relieve themselves should learn to recognize electrified cattle fence.:-D It may only be 40 volts, but it still smarts when applied to the right body parts! (Makes me cringe just thinking about it.) Trefor Thomas....

Sounds like a scene from a "Vacation" movie. I wonder what "Vacation on the Moon" would be like? BTW, don't the fences have signs on them warning that they are electrified?

I have lived the greater part of my life near one of Australia's major tourist destinations.... the Gold Coast. Similar to Honolulu the beaches are a major draw-card, but there are plenty of other attractions, theme-parks, national parks, wildlife parks etc. I was surprised (and pleased) when I returned from Melbourne recently and was presented at the airport with a brochure on "Surf Safety". Every person disembarking was handed one of these, written in several languages. While lack of education about potential dangers should be addressed by the individual, I don't think it hurts if the "locals" make it a bit easier for visitors to find the best information.

Sean gaeltach@fan.net.au

******************

..... and now for something completely different:

Lay a wallaby baby ball away, Al. ******************

Beginning of Discussion Group Log

[Editor's Note:Big Night! We had a total of 17 people attending throughout the course of the chat]

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group."

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, David.

dwrighsr: Hi. David. I know I'm early, but was getting ready to work on the afh posting for this chat and thought I'd get the room set up, chairs lined up and the dusting done.

AGplusone: Did that notice I sent this AM get to you properly?

dwrighsr: There is a fair amount of off topic stuff in the afh posting, that I am going to have to edit out. Yes, actually, I got two copies of it.

AGplusone: AOL had a glitch. Wound up sending two because it told me it wasn't "responding" then sent mail., anyway. Yes, see her.

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Doc4Kids: hello Davids

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AGplusone: Hurrah!

dwrighsr: Yea. It worked.

SAcademy: Thank goodness:-$

Doc4Kids: Good Evening

AGplusone: Glad you finally made it ....

SAcademy: Good evening to all. And thank you Mr. Wright.

dwrighsr: Welcome to the Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group.

AGplusone: :-):-D8-)

dwrighsr: You are most welcome. Now the question is. What do we do with all of the time until the regular chat starts?

SAcademy: Play games?

AGplusone: You guys chat, and show "SAcademy" how to get back into the room ....

AGplusone: since you're both on Windows as she is.

dwrighsr: If everyone is unaware of it, you can create a shortcut to the room by clicking on 'File' at the top of the and then 'create shortcut'. this will let you back in anytime that you get dropped without having to wait for an invite.

dwrighsr: Everyone except those poor MAC people :-$

Doc4Kids: Thanks! I've been e-mailing David S and he invites me in.

AGplusone: Yep ... Macs have to use another kind of shortcut.

dwrighsr: You said that you working on that. Any progress. ?

Doc4Kids: wait. all I get is Save and Print

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: Are you on WINDOZE?

SAcademy: I just made the shortcut. How do I darken the type face?

AGplusone: Hi, Merfilly ...

AGplusone: we're making shortcuts for Windows users to get back into the room if they get dumped

Merfilly8: hello all

Merfilly8: i won't be around all night

AGplusone: Glad you could drop in before that 12 hour trip you told us about later tonight.

Doc4Kids: yes, on WAOL

SAcademy: Hello

SAcademy: I've spent all too m,uch time theere!

AGplusone: Make sure he's using the pull down for AIM not AOL, David ...

Doc4Kids: actually I tried both.

dwrighsr: you can click on the 'B' right above the typing window to make yours bold, but everyone else has to do the same for themselves if you are to see. The MAC users may have a different way. I can't make it any larger however.

AGplusone: Is mine coming thru in 'bold' type?

SAcademy: Well I don't seem to be able to do that.

AGplusone: For some reason it doesn't appear to be working on my screen.

SAcademy: What does the link button do? Before I try it?

AGplusone: Allows you to put a hyperlink in the room ...

dwrighsr: Actually, yours was pretty bold already, but the others are better. Click once on the 'B' once. The link is for creating a link to a web page.

Doc4Kids: do I want the "save" option?

SAcademy: Thank you. This is a new machine and I'm bound to make mistakes.

SAcademy: Set up yesterday.

dwrighsr: the 'A' allows you to change the color of what you are sending and the I and u turn it into italic and underlined.

SAcademy: Yes, I knnow aobut those from prior experience.

SAcademy: This machine makes the most curious sound when I send!

dwrighsr: As I said, unfortunately, we don't have a way of enlarging the text.

SAcademy: But it has 20 gigabytes of hard disk!

Merfilly8: I'm afraid I can't do more than say hello. My children are demanding attention and then there is my road trip. I will be sure to read the log. A pleasure to meet those present. A good weekend to all.

SAcademy: And to you, too!

Merfilly8 has left the room.

SAcademy: I asked Laurie to come tonight. By the way, you should put her to work on some project!

dwrighsr: You can possibly turn off the sound by clicking on 'View', then 'Edit Chat Preferences' and selecting the 'Buddy Chat' tab. on there are two blocks for sound, one for sending and one for receiving. If they are checked and you don't want the sound, then click on them to uncheck them.

AGplusone: Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group

Doc4Kids: how's this

Doc4Kids: (not any larger)

AGplusone: The above is a hyperlink to my unpublicized page because it's not finished yet.

AGplusone: Altho part of it is up ...

dwrighsr: Doc. yours are showing up fine and larger than the rest of ours. David. I think that yours was OK without the bolding.

SAcademy: What sort of a book?

SAcademy: Just made it larger and esaier to read.

AGplusone: Okay, how's this?

Doc4Kids: well, I changed the size on View , edit chat preferences, and general

dwrighsr: Yeah. That's fine for me. How about you SA?

Doc4Kids: may be better without bold

dwrighsr: Doc. Yours is better with bold. I wonder why

SAcademy: Harder to read.

AGplusone: Btw, does that link work?

Doc4Kids: also using tahoma type (more open looking)

Doc4Kids: THIS is better?

SAcademy: Haven't tried it. Just asked what it was.

dwrighsr: Yes

Doc4Kids: ok

dwrighsr: Yeah. the page looks great.

Doc4Kids: you can change it so ALL of the print is larger at the same place

AGplusone: When it gets done, I'll publicize and enbed a link to this room on it.

Doc4Kids: (appears larger to the recipient)

AGplusone: embed

dwrighsr: In bed with who?

dwrighsr: Sorry couldn't resist

AGplusone: Me and Bob, David, me and Bob, the cat.

SAcademy: Snowy sleeps with me.

dwrighsr: My chihuahua sleeps with me. Gives my wife fits when I am out of town. refuses to sleep in my bed without me

AGplusone: Last night on my hip. He migrates from me to my wife to our daughter ... all night long, looking for a "Bed Into Summer ... "

SAcademy: Robert wouldn't have put up with that!

SAcademy: Laurie sleeps with four cats on her bed.

AGplusone: He feels very secure that way ... like Goldilocks ... eventually finds one "just right"

Doc4Kids: can go to "view", then "edit chat preferences", then "general" then "text magnification" and click on 133% or 200%. All text will appear larger to the reader

Doc4Kids: "SA" can do this and everyone's text will appear larger to her

SAcademy: I can read this size.

dwrighsr: I really wish that the people would get together on their different platforms. It is very annoying that 95/98 people can set up a shortcut and MAC users can',t and that MAC gets all of the neat stuff and 95/98 people can't use it.

SAcademy: Anyone tried 2000?

Doc4Kids: well, I;m having trouble with that shortcut

dwrighsr: The lack of 'editing font' capabilities in 95/98 is particularly annoying since they have it in the IM section. Whats with them? Bah

dwrighsr: Stephen said that 2000 was very unfriendly to AIM.

dwrighsr: He kept bombing out during the last chat.

AGplusone: How are you doing on the enlarging, SA?

SAcademy: Got a new scanner and printer too. Visioneer and HP laser jet.

SAcademy: I believe it's larger because I click on the cursor.

SAcademy: That might do it?

SAcademy: It did with 3.0 and 4.0

dwrighsr: That's strange. I did find a 'font' section, but it doesn't appear to do anything. Maybe it'll go into effect when I restart.

AGplusone: If it works ... it works.

AGplusone: On the make it did for me ... but you may need to do that

AGplusone: Mac=make

SAcademy: Is there any way to get rid of the hot chats at the bottom?

Doc4Kids: the way I explained above, enlarges all the text up to 200%

dwrighsr: there should be a button on the right labelled 'less'. Click on that

SAcademy: I enlarged all the type 200% on my last computer, and was never able to get rid of it!

AGplusone: There's a little triangle (0n Macs) :-)

Doc4Kids: Oh. I was just able to enable it and disable it without difficulty.

SAcademy: And some of the pull down menus went off the screen and were never heard of again!

dwrighsr: You magnification here should apply only to this AIM program and not to 95/98.

AGplusone: And only to the room?

dwrighsr: Try the 133%

SAcademy: Thank you, but not again for me!

dwrighsr: It should apply to any chat room, not just this one.

Doc4Kids: yes, just for chatrooms on AIM

AGplusone: Any AIM room!

dwrighsr: Did you get rid of the 'hot chats'?

SAcademy: No, they're still there.

dwrighsr: Can you see the 'less' button. Its pretty faint but should be right above the little man with the envelope and the word 'send'

Doc4Kids: is it possible that you have a different version of AIM than I do?

SAcademy: There was an "article" on TV today about being careful about to whom you talk nline!

Doc4Kids: I don't have a "less" button, and I can't create shortcuts

AGplusone: What version do you have Doc?

AGplusone: Ah-ha ... they've upgraded.

Doc4Kids: I don't know offhand

Doc4Kids: But that's probably it

dwrighsr: We are a pretty unsavory bunch :-). Hold down the 'ALT' key and then the 'L' key

AGplusone: You may still be on 2.0 from last year.

Doc4Kids: I think so

AGplusone: They're using 3.+

AGplusone: or whatever ... more recent version.

SAcademy: I was still upgrading when Mr. Wright fetched me here.

AGplusone: Anyway ... forty minutes. I'm going to quickly reread '"--We Also Walk Dogs"' so, 'scuse me for a bit.

Doc4Kids: I may have to upgrade eventually.

SAcademy: Well, it asked me., and I said "Yes."

dwrighsr: I just got through those three and 'If This Goes on.." and have just started 'Coventry'.

SAcademy: I don't especially like "Coventry"

SAcademy: Maybe because of the bombing raid?

SAcademy: During WWII--or am I the only one who remembers that?

dwrighsr: I've read about it, but I was just a tad too young to remember it. My earliest significant memories was Roosevelt dying.

AGplusone: Bombing of "Coventry" figures in To Sail ... we know if it anyway.

SAcademy: 1945. Robert wore a black arm band on his suit coat.

dwrighsr: I was thinking that. That was where Ira Johnson was 'rescued' wasn't it?

AGplusone: Yes

Major oz has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evening, Oz ....

dwrighsr: Welcome OZ

Major oz: yo, folks.........good to be back

Doc4Kids: David, David S asked me to ask you about posting our blood drive message on your site.

Doc4Kids: Hello, Major

Major oz: ...been thinking about you and your mother, David. Hope all is better

AGplusone: Tell SA how far south of Butler you're living now :-) Oz. Mom's a little better, not out of woods yet.

AGplusone: Thanks for the thought.

Major oz: Look better now ?

Major oz: Must change fonts

dwrighsr: That's great. I tried changing fonts, but couldn't get it to work.

Major oz: I'm living about 30 miles south of Lebanon MO. That puts me about 120 or so miles E-

Major oz: E-SE of Butler.

Major oz: I plan to get up there in the fall

SAcademy: Okay. There's a meeting of the Library Fpoundation board tomorrow. Want to go there?

AGplusone: Maybe you can find out for us what the "Lost Mule" trick is? [Sounds like a great deal, Oz!]

SAcademy: Why is my name red and the others are blue?

Major oz: Can't......I am committed to run the concession stand for a function out at the Bluegress Park

dwrighsr: Everyone's name appears to them in red and all of the others in blue.

AGplusone: Is Jim going to be there. It appears "red" to you only ... on my screen my name is red and all of you are blue.

Major oz: Lost mule trick: taking the "easy route".....pretty much where a marble would roll, given a slight push.

AGplusone: <---- need help remembering what my name is ...

Major oz: .....works great for kids

SAcademy: Yes, Jim will be there.

dwrighsr: Have any of you read RAH:ARC yet. I got my copy (Number 7) last week and read it in one evening.

Major oz: But you must consider distractions

Doc4Kids: ordered mine last night

AGplusone: used to read stories of kids doing that to find out where lost cows went ... release another cow and follow it, but never heard it referred to as "lost mule" until I read "Black Pits"

AGplusone: I've read a copy, not mine yet.

dwrighsr: Thoroughly enjoyed it even though It wasn't exactly what I expected.

Major oz: How is the RAH.ARC ?

Major oz: Is it well done?

AGplusone: Not bad, nice bits pretty well organized in one space ...

AGplusone: could be more in it, but just collecting it all in one spot was probably a good idea

dwrighsr: Jim said that he intended it to be 'a basis for further Heinlein study' without (m)any preconceived conclusions and I think he did

AGplusone: It's basically a basis for that ...

Major oz: Does it fit the definition of an annotated bibliography?

AGplusone: Raises the level of the beginning I think ...

Major oz: Have you read it yet, SAcademy?

dwrighsr: One of these years. (after I retire), I would like to create a CD or set of CDs with ALL of RAH's works and all of the existing critiques on it so that I could use it for searching for those 'neat quotes' that we all use now and again.

AGplusone: by getting everyone on the same page.

AGplusone: Correcting some misinformation ... hopefully not containing any itself ...

SAcademy: I thought all of you knew, that I now have to use a reading machine to read anythin.

AGplusone: That would be a chore ...

SAcademy: Is Kultsi comming tonight?

dwrighsr: Does it speak with a 'swedish' accent or have they improved them :-)

AGplusone: Hope so. Sent him a notice, if he got it.

dwrighsr: I'm keeping an eye open for everyone that I have ever seen on the chats.

Major oz: Does ddavit use her name on AIM ?

dwrighsr: Yes. she does

AGplusone: Jani is the only one I see signed on not in the room

dwrighsr: That is she uses 'ddavit'

Major oz: hokay

dwrighsr: if that is what you mean. I sent jani an invite, but she declined.

dwrighsr: Also BookOworm and Prnzofthvs, but they are not on AIM. I get the NO go on AOL message

AGplusone: Pretty late for her, expect to see her generally on Saturdays ...

AGplusone: Yes, both of them are on AOL only at this time

dwrighsr: JJ Brannon also.

dwrighsr: Can you AOLers distinguish between AOL only and AIM? I see them all the same and have to try the invite to see if they are on AIM. IM works ok with all of them

AGplusone: Yes, two different icons appear for us.

AGplusone: A triangle for AOL only and the Ying-Yang symbols for AIM

dwrighsr: Ah So. My son just got on AOL, but he doesn't have AIM yet.

Doc4Kids: I have two separate buddy lists

AGplusone: So do I, but the names overlap

dwrighsr: Well, I know how hard it is to keep programs up-to-date, but I sure wish that they would get their act together. To have the same type of programs incompatible with each other seems stupid.

AGplusone: They've actually set up AIM as a separate corporation ... which may actually improve it

Major oz: Folks, I have to get off for a while. My brother just got home from 2 and 1/2 weeks post lung transplant, and my niece just IM'ed me and said get the h--- off the computer and call him. See you in a bit.

AGplusone: get it out from under the overhead ...

Major oz has left the room.

AGplusone: See you Oz

AGplusone: 'post lung transplant' ... yikes!

AGplusone: God bless him.

dwrighsr: Well. I guess we can expect the same kind of things to happen when, and if, Microsoft gets busted. I mean. It's hard enough already with incompatibilites, but it is just going to get worse.

AGplusone: Depends ... you know that AOL kept changing codes to keep MS's chat rooms from being compatible with these, because MS refused to make their code available so AOL could make its rooms compatible with MS rooms. Might be with the order that compatibility will be more likely.

Doc4Kids: BTW, David. Did you know that our old message board (the Book Central one) is still up?

AGplusone: People might even try making iRC rooms compatible with these (yep, and nothing new on it for months) ...

Doc4Kids: we couldn't USE it, could we?

AGplusone: No ... except to read it.

Doc4Kids: ok

AGplusone: Eventually they'll get embarassed enough to take it down.

AGplusone: It's a "face" thing for them. Stupid

AGplusone: there's Jane

Doc4Kids: <---(glad that wasn't a comma!)

AGplusone: :-)

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi all

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: Hi Jane, Will.

Doc4Kids: david, how do I invite my young patient?

geeairmoe2: Yo.

dwrighsr: What's is his/her name. I'll add it to my buddy list and invite

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: or you can do it

Doc4Kids: ironmike12345

AGplusone: that'll work, Doc

BPRAL22169: Pronto!pronto!

AGplusone: Use Cntl-T

AGplusone: and make sure you type the name "Heinlein Readers Group" in for the room and his name

SAcademy: Hello, Bill

ironmike12345 has entered the room.

ironmike12345: hey everyone

Doc4Kids: Hello, Mike

AGplusone: G'evening, Mike. Welcome

ironmike12345: whats up?

BPRAL22169: Hello, Sockitome-ik.

Doc4Kids: Mike's a new RAH reader who's ready ST twice already

BPRAL22169: Glad to see you. Very glad.

AGplusone: In a moment or so, we'll start discussing three of the stories ... right now, free chat on Heinlein or whatever.

BPRAL22169: Three? I thought there were four altogether.

ddavitt: I got ARC at last; had to pay customs on it though

geeairmoe2: Received my copy Monday.

BPRAL22169: Is this easier to read?

SAcademy: Yes, Thankyou.

Prnzofthvs has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Now you know how I feel about those damned customs affidavits!

dwrighsr: Hi Steve.

ddavitt: It's canada's way of discouraging buting non candaian stuff the PO told me

BPRAL22169: BTW, Jane - how much was the duty on ARC?

geeairmoe2: My Dad is a Customs Inspector. Checks out military flights on their return.

ddavitt: Ridiculous in this case as the book isn't available in Canada

AGplusone: Only three tonight ... "Black Pits of Luna," "It's Great To Be Back" and "--We Also Walk Dogs" although we've been talking about Gifford's book some.

ddavitt: It was $5 handling, 2.72 GST

BPRAL22169: That's not as bad as I thought it might be.

ddavitt: Humph!

AGplusone: Jani sends her regrets, had a busy week. Will probably see us all on Saturday when she's more able.

Prnzofthvs: It's great to be back? haven't read that one....:o)

Doc4Kids: it would be the principle, to me

ddavitt: My Amazon order came through untouched; go figure!

AGplusone: acck ... Great

BPRAL22169: I'm always very dubious about protectionism policies, tarriffs, duties, etc. Only guarantees that people inside the country cannot get the best products.

AGplusone: Hi, Steve :-)

geeairmoe2: Stormy here in the Heart of Texas, so if I disappear for a while, you'll know why.

ddavitt: I hear there's an 11 year solar storm?

BPRAL22169: "Don't know why ..."

AGplusone: Yes, we'll know ... sunny here, but it's supposed to be coming ...

BPRAL22169: "There's no sun up in the sky"

BPRAL22169: "Stormy Weather . . ."

dwrighsr: 'Stormy Weather..."

dwrighsr: Beat me to it

geeairmoe2: Stormy weatherrrrr

AGplusone: One of those songs my dad used to sing ...

Prnzofthvs: okay now?

BPRAL22169: APOD had a wonderful x-ray picture of the face of Sol up -- 3 major flares at the same time.

geeairmoe2: Are the stars out tonight? I don't know if its cloudy or bright.

BPRAL22169: "Cause I only have eyes for you -u-u-u-u-u".

Prnzofthvs: I've been getting kicked off AOL very frequently for the last few days; I'll try to get back as soon as poss if it happens.

BPRAL22169: I understand you can make a desktop Icon that will bring you directly back here.

ddavitt: I was about to use that when I got an invitation

dwrighsr: The log for tonight won't be ready until tomorrow evening. I have to edit the AFH stuff first and then tack on this log. And since it will be Midnight or later when we finish. I won't get started on it until I get home tomorrow.

geeairmoe2: With Netscape, click "file" then "create shortcut"

A Lonely Hill has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Greg

ddavitt: Not many posts on afh this time...

ironmike12345: yo

A Lonely Hill: Heya.

ddavitt: Short stories don't seem to generate as many; perhaps less people have the texts?

dwrighsr: No there is a fair amount of off topic stuff that I'll have to get rid of.

AGplusone: A Lonely Hill =gfoxcook (if anyone was wondering)

LearethGFS has entered the room.

A Lonely Hill: LearethGFS = Danielle. She's just getting into Heinlein now. Read Stranger in a Strange Land awhile ago, and is reading Time Enough for Love now. Feel free to give her better advice than I can about what Heinlein she should (or could #;-}>) read after that.

ddavitt: Long time no see Greg. :-)

A Lonely Hill: Yes indeed.

AGplusone: Danielle's a great name ... have one named that for a daughter

A Lonely Hill: 5th year of college finishing. Last classes finishing. B.A. upcoming in January, sadly (only May and January degree dates). Moving out of apartment.

BPRAL22169: My advice: ration yourself.

LearethGFS: Gah, don't call attention to me! But hi, all.

ddavitt: Boring!

A Lonely Hill: :::currently waiting for father to arrive with pickup truck to transport mattress, box springs, computer desk out to the house:::

ddavitt: Sensible....but boring :-)

A Lonely Hill: So please, continue the Heinlein discussion. Danielle will save it for me so I can read all the great stuff I missed out on. (sob)

BPRAL22169: How could it be boring with all the *suspense* you're creating for yourself.

dwrighsr: My problem is that I never had the insights into any of RAH's stories. I just enjoyed them and re-read them. I am continually amazed at what you (jane and David and Bill P. ) see in them.

Doc4Kids: Ditto

A Lonely Hill: (I've recommended TEFL, TMIAHM, TSBTS (my sis liked it better than TEFL), and... hmm... a few others.

ddavitt: When i find a new author I race through them; can't help myself. No self restraint

Prnzofthvs: now their heads will be really large! :o)

dwrighsr: Folks, this is a record, (since I've been here). we got 11.

AGplusone: probably because we're obsessed :-D and been reading them so long ....

ddavitt: Thanks David but I think you underate yourself

A Lonely Hill: I've appreciated Heinlein on the personal level relating to my life, or me, or friends, and on the literary level, and on the generally "fun" level all at once. I haven't had the chance to read more than one or two of the 20 Heinlein novels I've purchased since last summer. (sob) DAMNED ENGLISH LITERATURE MAJOR! ^_^

ddavitt: That's sad....

BPRAL22169: It would be disingenuous to say "t'aint nothin' to it." But it's a problem in the critical literature that even supposedly sophisticated critics -- like James Blish -- seem to fall all over themselves when the try reading Heinlein and we do not love them for the fumbling grace with which they wipe the drool from their chins!

Doc4Kids: what's really sad is I wish I had 20 unread RAH's!!!

AGplusone: I noticed something in Black Pits btw that reminds me of another stories involving a scoutmaster on the Moon ... btw ...

AGplusone: story

dwrighsr: I've been reading them just as long and I am obsessed too :-)No. I really have never been a 'critical' reader. Maybe that's why I had trouble as a German Lit major in college. (that was after I flunked physics)

BPRAL22169: *sigh* I'd better drag out PTT preemptively tonight.

A Lonely Hill: I know what you mean, Doc.

BPRAL22169: What I'm saying is that even the critics havent been reading RAH critically -- so don't get a down on yourself.

A Lonely Hill: I wish I could read the 20 or so I *have* read over again for the first time. :::is jealous of Dani::: Ooops. Bad human emotion feelings. (sob)

A Lonely Hill: ::Gives self a brain wipe:::

BPRAL22169: (smiling happy brain)

ironmike12345: brb

BPRAL22169: or is that: Shining happy brain?

A Lonely Hill: what does James Blish write for? Or is he freelance?

BPRAL22169: I forget.

dwrighsr: I am furiously envy with *anybody* who still has unread Heinleins to read. Up until a few years ago,(and I am 60). I used to have dreams about finding new ones that I hadn't read. Unfortunately, I always woke up before I could read them :-)

BPRAL22169: Blish was a fairly major sf writer, died about -- what 8 or 9 years ago? Wrote critical material under the name "William Atheling."

A Lonely Hill: Dwrighsr: I changed from Mech engineering to English lit at the end of Junior year. Just finishing up English lit now. #;-}>

ddavitt: I have those dreams about other authors too...

A Lonely Hill: Where did the Atheling articles appear mostly?

ddavitt: Wasn't he English?

A Lonely Hill: I bought a ton of used Heinleins last July in Portland, Oregon at Powell's Books.

geeairmoe2: I tried to invite TAWN, but it wouldn't let me.

ironmike12345: back

ironmike12345: all miss me?

A Lonely Hill: Just haven't had time to be in a stable/calm enough phase to enjoy them fully.

dwrighsr: Actually, I exagerrated. I didn't flunk. My professor said that I could have a 'D' and try to make it up or take a 'C' and get out. I got out.

BPRAL22169: Different fanzines from about 1957 to 1975. They were collected into two books called THE ISSUE AT HAND and MORE ISSUES AT HAND

A Lonely Hill: I dropped out during spring junior year.

A Lonely Hill: Had to. No way to change horses midstream at Rice.

Prnzofthvs: I have been reading Poul Anderson's series about the Lunarians (the "stars" series) and the differences in how humans adapt to low-gravity is interesting.

A Lonely Hill: Had to get readmitted the same week. Fortunately, it was easy. O_o

A Lonely Hill: What do you mean about the adaptation differences?

ddavitt: Does he have them getting very tall and thin?

dwrighsr: If you haven't already done so and are on 95/98. You can create a permanent link to this chat room by clicking on 'file' and then 'create shortcut'.

A Lonely Hill: Bone density is key.

ddavitt: Like Niven does in Barsoom project?

AGplusone: Are we ready to begin?"Nothing Ever Happens On The Moon" has a scoutmaster who's forced into the same thing against his better judgment by some politician/manager ...

ddavitt: Publicity stunt...

Prnzofthvs: Well, the unmodified humans have to exercise regularly, at 1g, or they die young. The modified "Lunarians." (changed genome) grow tall and thin, but retain great strength.

BPRAL22169: It's a quite common trope in SF -- I think Leiber had that in the 1950's -- his short story about the bubble stations growing up outside the industrial stations.

A Lonely Hill: What do the bubble stations consist of primarily?

BPRAL22169: In orbit, I mean.

BPRAL22169: Plastic bubbles blown as habitats in orbit.

Featherz Dad has left the room.

AGplusone: In Black Pits, the guide is forced to take "Brat" out because of the boss's desire to make Shorty's dad feel good ... in "Nuthin" the scoutmaster is forced by politics to let "Bruce" try to qualify as an Eagle ... both mistakes ... anyone see something there that's a little like our space program today?

BPRAL22169: And artists and general ne'er do wells went to the bubbles instead of the steel and metal stations. It's been awhile since I read the story.

ddavitt: As lives were at stake should both of them have refused firmly instead of giving in?

AGplusone: We've been lucky thus far: NASA's publicity stunts haven't killed anyone directly so far as we know ...

Prnzofthvs: shoulda coulda; politics seems to override common sense every time

ddavitt: Latham goaded the father...

A Lonely Hill: now now. Some artists don't mind doing "honest" work as well as art.

Doc4Kids: Challenger? Teacher in Space?

BPRAL22169: Well, there are those darned O rings . . .

ddavitt: Wonder why?

AGplusone: because they we invited along and failed to do something, altho the "teacher" died not thru her fault ...

A Lonely Hill: I went to a talk by three artists (primarily metalwork/other material sculptors) at a garden near Houston a few weeks ago. All three loved to weld.

Prnzofthvs: The teacher didn't die because of a publicity stunt; she died because of a shoddy contractor's shoddy work.

geeairmoe2: When common sense is enough to convince people of the necessity of a program, you have to make a splash to get your funding. Bad all around.

AGplusone: It a point here that the 'usual amenities' have little place in space?

ddavitt: Am i stretching it to see a link with Poddy and children at risk through parents behaviuor?

AGplusone: No, I don't think so, Jane

ddavitt: Quite a few parallels between the two stories

Doc4Kids: wasn't having her abouard a publicity stunt? Like the congressman/senator before that?

geeairmoe2: I sesned the "weak parenting" thing.

geeairmoe2: Let the Runt tantrum his way into danger.

BPRAL22169: I wonder if this is more a "politics" thing -- RAH made a big point about how there will always be "politics" because we take it alogn with us.

ddavitt: And the older child feeling responsible beyond his years

Prnzofthvs: I seem to recall that it was more an attempt to get kids more interested in the program

dwrighsr: I don't think that they actually emotionally grasped the danger of it, so I don't believe that you can blame them too much.

A Lonely Hill: Industry, commerce, and art/entertainment can co-exist. ^_^ Anyway. I have to go try to move my computer off the desk now so I can move the desk out of my apartment. If I accidentally disconnect my computer, that's why I'll be logging off. #;-}> Enjoy the convo, wish I could participate.

BPRAL22169: Where'ever there is "pull" there is politics.

A Lonely Hill: :::waves::: Nice seeing you all again, I'll try to be on more often this summer, when I can actually read some "new" Heinlein. Bye

ddavitt: But it seems that even on earth they would have been the same.

ddavitt: The older boy knows all their foibles and weaknesses

BPRAL22169: I think that's the point, Jane.

geeairmoe2: The human race may find new places, but it'll make the same old mistakes.

ddavitt: Hard to beleive he grew up so sensible.

AGplusone: But we encourage parental bad behavior ... by allowing it. How could we avoid doing so ... ? Runt tantrums to Mom who passive-agressive gets her way by anothe form of manipulative behavior ... even Shorty thinks he'll sweet talk "mom" into that extra two bucks he needs for photos ... it's endemic behavior

BPRAL22169: Another thing Heinlein always stressed was that the new environment of space brings new stuff out -- see "Misfit," his second story.

ironmike12345: the only book ive read by him was ST

ddavitt: The older boy has to be manipulative; reason doesn't work on airheads.

BPRAL22169: That co-dependent, manipulative behavior accepted as a given nowadays.

Doc4Kids: I've seen that type of family behavior too often to mention, David

AGplusone: ... and the environment might kill the normal 'givens' unless discarded???

BPRAL22169: Good point, Jane.

AGplusone: Me too, Doc

geeairmoe2: Space is no place for airheads. It is coldly unforgiving.

ddavitt: The extra dangers of the lunar environment do a swift 'wheat from chaff' separation.

Doc4Kids: it's my unhappy task to try to "advise" these families

BPRAL22169: A point taken up in detail in TMIAHM

AGplusone: Right, and in TEFL

ddavitt: Yes; dumb new chums die...fast.

Doc4Kids: brb, friends

AGplusone: You're reading the part where they talk about winnowing of the species, yet, Danielle?

dwrighsr: Yeah. the gangster boss who didn't even make it in after getting off the ship

ddavitt: That's right...

AGplusone: By the process of pioneering ...

n1yqh a has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Mike.

BPRAL22169: Secondary effect of surviving: self-esteem. Nobody would even think to "respect" a goon.

n1yqh a: wow, it's crowded tonight...

TAWN3 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Isn't that great!

LearethGFS: AG- I just started TEFL, and haven't had much time to read when I can really concentrate, so.. I honestly don't think I've gotten to the part you mentioned. (Sorry for the long lag, attention's not entirely here.)

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn, Mike ...

AGplusone: You'll enjoy it when you get there :-)

ironmike12345: how many people here are named mike?

LearethGFS: I'm enjoying it so far. ^_^

BPRAL22169: Dave, will you invite Tawn3 in? My software isn't functioning properly.

TAWN3: Hi David, Asty, Bill, the other David, Jane, Doc and every one else!

ddavitt: It's scary to think that the stupid things the tourists say probably aren't exagerrated for the humour; bloodhounds, take her helmet off etc..

AGplusone: Several actually ... n1yqh a meet ironmike

ddavitt: Hi Tawn.

BPRAL22169: Though, of course, they are quite humorous.

geeairmoe2: Hi, Tawn.

ironmike12345: hey

BPRAL22169: I love it when you can make satire by repeating exactly what people say.

ddavitt: Darwin awards type of humour...

TAWN3: Iron Mike from the 82nd?

ironmike12345: hu?

Prnzofthvs: Jane, those type questions are quite common right here on earth. In fact there's a comedian that's made a career of talking about them.

TAWN3: Hi Geeairmoe

ddavitt: Who?

n1yqh a: which stories are tonight's theoretical topic? My internship at the lab here is done in two weeks, so I'm going insane trying to finish up and I must admit that I completely failed to prepare for tonight...

Prnzofthvs: Bill Engvall

AGplusone: But the simple example ... the "lost mule" technique of finding something amused me ... put you mind into something like the mind of a kid ... if you know the kid well enough ...

ddavitt: Never heard of him...so he doesn't exist

ironmike12345: gtg

geeairmoe2: A comedian named George Wallace does a great bit about stupid things people say, like: Cold enough for you? ... Why? Can you make it colder?

ddavitt: Black Pits, Great To be back, Walk Dogs

n1yqh a: thanks

ironmike12345: peace

TAWN3: goodbye Iron Mike

Prnzofthvs: I like signs like "For sale by owner"

ironmike12345 has left the room.

ddavitt: I liked the way the boy turned off the noise and _thought_

BPRAL22169: I like getting metaphysical advice from buses: "Be careful of head"

geeairmoe2: And the warnings on products, like not to use blow dryers in the shower.

TAWN3: Well, that is better than for sale by the Sheriff's department!

AGplusone: In Black Pits, because a father insists (and he's an important guy) they take a kid onto the moon's surface who's too young to take care of himself ... how likely, really, is that?

TAWN3: or the IRS

BPRAL22169: or "Wait for light, then push handle to open door."

AGplusone: Then the kid gets lost ...

ddavitt: How old is the child whose suit he borrows?

ddavitt: Not age so much as training

ddavitt: And good supervision.

AGplusone: Different ages, like how young do you let them read Zenna Henderson, eh?

ddavitt: Mother let child go off down the hill on his own

geeairmoe2: Re: borrowed suit. All it said was it belonged to the Director's daughter.

ddavitt: Watch it AG! Don't want blood all over the screen....:-)

dwrighsr: Or looking out carefully. The scoutmaster *knew* that a child had to be looked out for, but apparently, didn't realize the runts parents would not know enough to do so

ddavitt: It was small; young daughter...

AGplusone: and an eleven year old girl might be as small as a seven year old boy ...

TAWN3: he seems about age 4 or 5, but maybe someone with kids has more insight

ddavitt: He is 7 years younger than brother

BPRAL22169: My brother-in-law scares me; when I am with him and the kids I have to be "on" twice as hard. This is a very realistic touch for me.

ddavitt: Who must be less than 18 at highest estimate.

ddavitt: He has a girlfriend.

AGplusone: That's all we know, but the scountmaster asked his brother if he was a scout, and you become scout at 12-13 so he's 6-7 at least.

Featherz Dad has entered the room.

TAWN3: Perhaps he did not give an age on purpose, so that others would relate to the older bro.

AGplusone: Hi, Will ... WB

Featherz Dad: HI

TAWN3: He did not act that old

TAWN3: Hi

BPRAL22169: I had the impression he ws 15-16.

ddavitt: The very name "Baby Darling" hints at how they see him( probably wildly inaccurate)

ddavitt: He has all Clark's charm and none of his brains

Doc4Kids: yes, I have parents telling me things abut "the baby" who could be 5-6 years old in some cases

dwrighsr: They called the young girl 'baby' in Dirty Dancing.

ddavitt: Notice the final line though; "I know you will Shorty". affection? Or put down?

dwrighsr: IMHO, Definitely respect and maybe affection.

AGplusone: 'shorty' is a joke. He's big enough to wear a 'woman's suit'

TAWN3: compliment

Featherz Dad: It appears that. I don't have a bold button that is not part of an application. Sorry.

ddavitt: We are told he's tall for his age; so why call him shorty?

AGplusone: So if he's 12-13 then he's large for his age.

TAWN3: he was competent and instantly adapted to the moon, the parents didn't

ddavitt: Why joke to a hero? Like fatso...seems insulting. or is it a guy thing? :-)

Doc4Kids: I had a drummer who was 6-2. we called him "Tiny"

AGplusone: It's a guy thing ...

geeairmoe2: Knicknames based on physical appearances seems less PC these days.

Doc4Kids: definitely a guy thing

Featherz Dad: Testosterone poisoning

Prnzofthvs: I have to interject: at the time this was written, it was common for the youngest child to be referred to as the "baby of the family," no matter the age.

AGplusone: You're right, but "Baby Darling"?

ddavitt: But no kid worth his salt would put up with it...

TAWN3: he struck me as a coddled brat

AGplusone: At seven I'd have gone ballistic if my mother had called me that in public

ddavitt: We never get told his name at all; Runt is the only other alternative.

dwrighsr: Well. I was the 'baby' of the family, my next older brother was 11 years older, but they *never* called me 'Baby'. My father called me 'Pig'

Prnzofthvs: david: I did!

ddavitt: _I_ was called Treasure......girls get nicer names obviuosly

Fldax has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Laurie

Prnzofthvs: and my mom never called me the baby of the family again.

AGplusone: We're talking about nicknames in "The Black Pits"

Fldax: Hi, everyone.

BPRAL22169: Hi, Laurie -- say a special hello to SAcademy

ddavitt: It's sad that Dickie knows his parents so well at his age; he has no illusions about them.

Featherz Dad: I have a younger brother and three cousins. The youngest of the cousins was called the baby of the family until fairly late but never "the baby" or "baby darling" as if it were his NAME

Prnzofthvs: my daughter's nickname was either "punkin' " or "bubble butt" charming, eh?

BPRAL22169: Was Heinlein obseerving your family, Steve?

Fldax: I never had a family nickname. Lucky, I guess.

BPRAL22169: Sounds likePoddy-fodder to me.

Prnzofthvs: I hope not!

Featherz Dad: "bubble butt," just the thing to build an adolescent girl's self-image

AGplusone: I dunno about that ... when I was four mother dear called me her "buttercup" ... my daughter Danielle was called "loud mouth lime" for a while until we realized it annoyed her lots.

ddavitt: Again; with a father who tries to pay his son's rescuers and punch someone when his son is lost, how does the older boy get his brains?

ddavitt: Maybe he's adopted....

BPRAL22169: In my family, we don't start calling pet names UNTIL we realize it annoys them a lot.

Prnzofthvs: Who said anything about adolescent? she was about 2-3

AGplusone: [of course she had to be "loud mouth" to get a word in edgewise in the family she was born into]

Featherz Dad: OK, a 2-3 year old could HANDLE being called bubble butt

dwrighsr: I suspect that they had brains, just didn't use them!

ddavitt: dad was probably a fair business man

Prnzofthvs: and if not, it was a long time ago, and she's got quite a good self-image now, so what's the difference?

ddavitt: Wrong values though

AGplusone: "Dad" in the story is a VIP

TAWN3: They had brains enough to be in a position in life to go to the Moon

Featherz Dad: People can be real smart until you get them "out of the box."

geeairmoe2: Nicknames seemd to have died out some. Athletes don't have them like they used to.

BPRAL22169: I think that's one element of Heinlein's writing for adolescents -- that feeling of being "different" from your family is very, very common among bright adolescents.

AGplusone: big time ... which is why they let that kid onto the surface

Featherz Dad: Yeah, where is ducky-wucky Medwick when you need him?

SAcademy has left the room.

Prnzofthvs: I never had a nickname - one of the major tragedies of my yout'

ddavitt: understandably so in this story.

Featherz Dad: I had several nicknames.

Featherz Dad: None of them worth repeating

ddavitt: Contrast with Kip Russell

Prnzofthvs: I guess SA doesn't care for our maunderings too much

AGplusone: He does that over and over ... the "Terrible Twins" ...

TAWN3: ?

geeairmoe2: The closest I had to a nickname was an Aunt who called me Wild Will.

Doc4Kids: I suppose it's academic now

dwrighsr: I think that she was just tired. She told me she had been up since 4 am.

BPRAL22169: Ok - that would do it.

Featherz Dad: MY aunt called ALL of us "Billy, Allen, Sid, Larry, Jerry" when she was upset

Prnzofthvs: that would have made me leave long ago!

Featherz Dad: Wow, and we never TRIED it on alt.fan.heinlein

Prnzofthvs: My mother, in later years, called my brother and I by our older brother's name, when she was upset or in a hurry

Featherz Dad: In my family, we just got called by all five names, so they got the right one

Major oz has entered the room.

Doc4Kids: my grandmother did the same and included my uncle

Doc4Kids: (her son)

dwrighsr: Well. Us old folks do get kind of 'forgetful'

BPRAL22169: There were too many of us to make that very practical.

Prnzofthvs: mom would just go down the line from oldest to wherever you fit in the equation

Major oz: Thanx for bringing me back. My brother is in GREAT shape. Now....back to topic

Major oz: OK.....bold

Featherz Dad: Back to topic, how quaint

BPRAL22169: why do you imagine your being here would bring us back to topic, h mmmm?`

Prnzofthvs: radical!

Doc4Kids: ten....HUT!

A Lonely Hill: Okay, time to get offline. Gotta disconnect computer soon, move it all out to the 'rents' house temporarily (till I move to NYC at the end of the summer).

Prnzofthvs: he doesn't even have a Heinlein name; but a Baum name!

AGplusone: See you Greg ...

Major oz: soorrrreeeeee.....just didn't want to get caught up in my bro's success.

ddavitt: That _is_ a Heinlein name!

A Lonely Hill: You guys be nice to Danielle, okay? ^_^ See y'all sooner or later. Good evenings to you all.

AGplusone: thanks for coming

ddavitt: Bye greg

Featherz Dad: bye

A Lonely Hill: sure thing. Thanks for always making me feel welcome, even when I'm delinquent in my Heinlein reading. #;-}> Later.

Featherz Dad: Someone here named Danielle? sigh

Prnzofthvs: Jane: Oz isRAH????

A Lonely Hill has left the room.

ddavitt: So; anyone think it's funny Heinlein had a Stone on the Moon in the next story?

Prnzofthvs: More like L. Frank Baum

Major oz: ......the sectet is out.......

ddavitt: I connect the two Steve...Heinlein was so fond of the Oz stories.

AGplusone: Yep, a Danielle. Told her my Daughter's name is that Will

TAWN3: Yes

Featherz Dad: Lotsa stones on the moon.

Prnzofthvs: ahh...just read a very interesting bit about L. Frank recently

TAWN3: I kept wondering if there was a connection. Assdumed there was.

geeairmoe2: How many Wills have we got in here?

LearethGFS: Featherz: The Danielle'd be me. I'm a newbie, don't hurt.

ddavitt: Quite...

Featherz Dad: rocks, stones, dust

Major oz: ...and my little dirt road in the country is being renamed Yellow Brick Road

AGplusone: Two, and one Bill

ddavitt: No, we're nice Danielle :-)

Doc4Kids: I never noticed that David, until you brought it up. Must have ready that story 100 times

Featherz Dad: I have always been nice to people named Danielle.

Pnther5o5 has entered the room.

TAWN3: Moon Stones, to be differentiated from Sun Stones.

dwrighsr: Speaking of competent people. (which we were in a round way), I still have trouble with Gifford's characterization of Manny and Hugh as 'incompetent'. That was the point that I mentioned in AFH that I disagreed with him on. I can't think of them as 'incompetent', but simply as encountering events that they weren't able to control, no how matter how 'competent'

ddavitt: I missed that post

ddavitt: A recent one?

BPRAL22169: He's got it in ARC, too.

TAWN3: I haven't been there for a few days. Busy.

AGplusone: Probably more realistic people than many of RAH's other characters like Laz

dwrighsr: That's what I was referring to. after I read it

BPRAL22169: I t hink people make far too much of Panshin's "competent man" nonsense.

ddavitt: Yes, I saw that; sees it as a whole period of examining incompetence.

Featherz Dad: Yeah, but hardly incompetent

geeairmoe2: I saw them more as "unequipped".

ddavitt: Mannie was ...innocent in some ways.

Fldax has left the room.

Featherz Dad: unequipped. I like that.

AGplusone: Evening, John. "Strike Hold" has arrived. Welcome from "H-Minus"

ddavitt: Politically naive

Pnther5o5: If you would like an "interesting" discussion there has been fur flying over a new "literary" reader that has deconstructed Starship Troopers for the Baen crowd.

n1yqh a: Mannie always seemed to me as the ultimate engineer (well, second to Dan in "Door into Summer"), and "incompetent" is one word I'd never use to describe him... Politically naive I'll agree with, though...

Major oz: Mannie would admit to being "just a workin' stiff"

Featherz Dad: innocent is also a good one. Mannie was, in some ways, a blank slate. He was written on by poeple and events.

AGplusone: Which one's that?

dwrighsr: Why should he have been otherwise, there was no opportunitiy for him to have gained such experience.

TAWN3: Somebody has to be in a RAH story, so that the elder character (RAH in disquise) has someone to explain things to. i.e., such as Jubal

ddavitt: He was born on Luna yes?

dwrighsr: You are being sarcastic, I hope. :-)

ddavitt: limited experience of life...always surrounded by polite people

BPRAL22169: Somebody has to be the un-illuminated so he can go through the process.

TAWN3: Who me? No, serous

ddavitt: Makes the reader feel less dumb

TAWN3: serious.

Featherz Dad: Except there are lots of stories that don't fit the model

BPRAL22169: And in a political story, someone has to be politically uninterested but a person of good will. Hence Manny.

Doc4Kids: "serous" is different, Tawn

TAWN3: Exactly. He represents the reader in many ways

BPRAL22169: Another way of looking at the older figure and the innocent is as an expository device.

ddavitt: Crown prince....

ddavitt: Figurehead

TAWN3: RAH preachs, I like that, but there needs to be someone to preach to.....

ddavitt: That would be us the reader I suppose

TAWN3: Of course

dwrighsr: Well. you could say that the parents in Black Pits had to be what they were so that Shorty could be a hero.

pakgwei has left the room.

TAWN3: But he needs a vehicle to do that

TAWN3: Doc, ?

BPRAL22169: In a sense, our teenager is that vehicle in "Black Pits" -- innocent but smart, so he can be explained what's going on.

Doc4Kids: yes?

ddavitt: Worth risking a useless child to make his brother realise his pioneer qualifications?

TAWN3: serous?

Major oz: I always got the feeling, in all the books, that his instruction / preaching / whatever was directed at some nebulous "other" with we, the reader, looking on....kinda listening in.

TAWN3: is differetnt?

ddavitt: Harsh but survival of fittest?

ddavitt: Blood?

Doc4Kids: has to do with blood (serum, actually)

ddavitt: Serous I mean

TAWN3: oh

dwrighsr: I never thought that RAH was 'preaching'. I simply enjoyed the stories. May *I* was the innocent one who just never got the message :-)

dwrighsr: May--> maybe

ddavitt: Perhaps he just did it in a clever way; spoonful of sugar?

Featherz Dad: RAH did some preaching, told some stories, sometimes it is hard to tell which he is doing. Sometimes he may not have known himself.

BPRAL22169: You can "get" the message on many different levels; you don't have to have Northrup Frye's articulateness

BPRAL22169: He knew.

dwrighsr: Pardon. Who is NFrye?

jleebeane has entered the room.

Featherz Dad: Who was "innocent" in _Double Star_?

BPRAL22169: Literary critic -- the finest in the century IMO.

ddavitt: Possible to read the stories as entertainment and miss the deeper stuff

BPRAL22169: The Great Lorenzo

ddavitt: Lorenzo

BPRAL22169: He wrote everything on many levels.

ddavitt: Suckered into it by vanity

Doc4Kids: Larry, easy. Knew nothing about politics

BPRAL22169: The cute thing about that story is, it could have been written so that the politicos were the innocents.

n1yqh a: N. Frye - wasn't he "Uncle Tom" in Poddy?

Doc4Kids: or much else for that matter

ddavitt: Grew enought o volunteer properly at the end

BPRAL22169: Cute.

Featherz Dad: The people around Lorenzo learned from HIM as well. Still, he was the politicaly innocent, for awhiel

Featherz Dad: Far from innocent of human nature, however.

Featherz Dad: Again, he was "out of the box"

ddavitt: Politics wasn't his game

BPRAL22169: Or "Fish out of water," as they say in the writing game. Write the story the other way, and you've got The Mask of Apollo.

ddavitt: ?

Major oz: ...but any game was his game.

BPRAL22169: Mary Renault

Featherz Dad: Mary Renault?

ddavitt: King Must Die

BPRAL22169: Same

ddavitt: Historical writer

Pixelmeow has entered the room.

ddavitt: Didn't know that one.

ddavitt: Hi Teresa

Pixelmeow: Wow, lots o people heretonight!

dwrighsr: Do you mean that there are other writers besides Heinlein. I never heard such nonsense.

Featherz Dad: Hi, Pix. LOOK FEATHER, it's Pix

ddavitt: :-)

Pixelmeow: Hi, Jane, Hi Feather!

Pixelmeow: Hi, all!

TAWN3: Hi Pixel

Major oz: psffffttt !!!

Pixelmeow: What's the topic of the moment?

geeairmoe2: ddavitt: Historical writer: At first glance I saw hysterical writer.

ddavitt: Ha ha

ddavitt: In between stories PIx

Prnzofthvs: Will, we used to call my daughter "Heather Feather" sometimes.

ddavitt: Are we moving on to the next one?

Doc4Kids: wait a moment...it'll change

Featherz Dad has left the room.

Pixelmeow: :-) Heather's father calls her that too, Steve.

Prnzofthvs: guess it's a natural

ddavitt: I don't think I can stay awake much longer....busy day

Pixelmeow: What were you guys just talking about?

ddavitt: I'll try

Prnzofthvs: you...hehe

BPRAL22169: I know I say this about pert' near every story that comes up, but "'It's Great to be Back!'" is really and truly one of my most favorite stories of all.

ddavitt: Dome Black pits of Luna

ddavitt: I like it too bill; pure fun

Pixelmeow: Dome? I'm not too good with the titles, but I did get a clue about Pits...

ddavitt: But why did it take them three years to go back

ddavitt: Done, sorry

Pixelmeow: From Luna?

BPRAL22169: They might not have been able to arrange it any sooner.

ddavitt: Yes; after that long I would've thought they'd have adapted

Pixelmeow: I think they wanted to give it as long as they could before they gave up.

BPRAL22169: He's done that switched viewpoint in other stories, too -- "Columbus Was a Dope."

Prnzofthvs: they tried vey hard to adapt to earth, as well...

ddavitt: Didn't get that impression,plenty of ships

dwrighsr: I got one of those 'emotional' things about 'Great'. The little moisture around the eye when they talked with the lady about getting their old apartment back.

ddavitt: Stayed there a few months, yes.

n1yqh a: It's one of my favorite exapmles of how RAH can make a story seem totally normal even though the subject matter is decidedly abnormal 0 Columbus being my other favorite of that style..

Prnzofthvs: I think they just gave it their best shot

BPRAL22169: But they had to change jobs --

geeairmoe2: John Varley's "The Pusher" reminded me a bit of "Great". In "Pusher" a spacer on Earth for the first time throws up and proclaims: Gravity sucks!

ddavitt: It's a slo a vehicle for Heinlein to point at some probalems on earth and provincialism in general

Doc4Kids: I think I'm gonna call it a night, friends. (two "on-calls" this week) Thanks for the interesting (as usual) conversation

TAWN3: They obviously liked it. It took three years for them to both become homesick for Earth and for the hardships and unusual aspects of Luna to get to them. Any shorter a time and it would not have been beleiveable. As it was, I thought three years to turn into a Loonie was a rather short time.

Pixelmeow: I think they had the "no quitters here!" thing going, like many of RAH's stories.

BPRAL22169: It's also the story I point to as showing how Heinlein packed in tons of expository detail into the first two paragraphs -- sets the scene exactly with great economy.

geeairmoe2: Take care, Doc.

ddavitt: Mrs Appleby is a typical Heinlein Matron as Jim calls them

Doc4Kids has left the room.

dwrighsr: RAH's use of 'the common place' is one of the things that I really like about his stories. They made the whole thing so *real*

geeairmoe2: That Heinleinian technique of seamlessly weaving information into the plot.

TAWN3: Bye Doc

ddavitt: Reminds me of Matt trying to talk to his parents when he's on leave; no point of connection

Major oz: My six months as a civillian before going career was, in many ways, similar to the couple going back to earth.

geeairmoe2: You can never go home.

Pixelmeow: I wonder if any of you guys see these people in so many of his stories...

Pixelmeow: I tend to see the same idiots all over his stories...

ddavitt: i don't know....feels like you ought to

Prnzofthvs: Ot Thorby talking about slavery.

ddavitt: See them in real life too

Pixelmeow: You know, the dummies who want to go out on the surface of the moon and yell...

ddavitt: He definitely used stock characters

Pixelmeow: And the closed minded parents who just won't listen to anyone else. "Well of course they don't do such things, dear!"

ddavitt: Maybe there's only so many types of human.

n1yqh a: Mrs. |Grundy - shows up in more than one story...

Prnzofthvs: didn't somebody once start a thread on that topic?

Major oz: ....yes, DD, those who adapt and those who die.....

Pixelmeow: Yeah, maybe, I just haven't come across many of them. Except for those who think we can cross reference the census and tax forms...

BPRAL22169: Let's try a different angle on that, jane: Maybe there's only so many types of dramatic contrasts available for the limited number of human types.

Featherz Dad has entered the room.

Prnzofthvs: or was it "only so many plotlines?"

ddavitt: Do jo and Allen seem all that special?

Pixelmeow: I wonder about the amount of plotlines, Steve.'

BPRAL22169: They struck me as "new deal common men" -- i.e., damned uncommon.

Pixelmeow: I tend to see the same things over and over...

ddavitt: Nice people but normal; maybe Heinlein wanted to show that space wasn't just for scientists?

Pixelmeow: just new characters.

geeairmoe2: I vauguely recall the notion of only five "plotline".

Pixelmeow: I like how he did that, put normal (eh?) people in space.

BPRAL22169: But dind't they have to be scientists to be ther at all.

Prnzofthvs: Yep, like romeo and juliet in brooklyn - west side story

AGplusone: On the contrary, to me, when I read most of these, I felt they were "just like me" or at least the concept I had of myself.

ddavitt: Let me check..

BPRAL22169: This is a story type written for the Post.

Featherz Dad: I am going to write "Adventures of a AIM user."

Pixelmeow: You are, huh?

AGplusone: 'course I did have a rather large head ....

TAWN3: He didn't put normal people in space

ddavitt: He's a physical chemist

Pixelmeow: I want a copy.

TAWN3: the normal people are on Earth

dwrighsr: She was an accountant

ddavitt: She goes back as an accountant

dwrighsr: or bookkeeper

Pixelmeow: I have never really connected with any of RAH's heroes until Maureen...

ddavitt: So the colony is advanced enough to have all sorts possibly

TAWN3: The space folks have to pass all kinds of psych and physical and skill level tests

ddavitt: maureen? she's scary! :-)

Featherz Dad: accountants and boookkeepers aren't normal people. they are beancounters. Normal people are not beancounters

Pixelmeow: Just a little with Deety et al, but not too much. I would never be able to pass all those tests to get into space.

dwrighsr: trying to weed out the 'bad apples'

Pixelmeow: I don't think Mau is scary, she's a lot like my mother, hence like me. :-)

Prnzofthvs: but, if you remember, he always had people there who shouldn't be there, who shouldn't have been able to pass the tests. As in "Farmer"

Major oz: I connected VERY closely with the hero in Tunnel and with the hero in Door.

ddavitt: It has tourists so it's not just a scientific place; has children too

Featherz Dad: Well, I would be weeded out. Dedicated bad apple.

TAWN3: Oz, TitS, me too.

ddavitt: Too competent; and I wouldn't trust her round my david :-)

Pixelmeow: I don't understand how those people like the neighbors on that moon got there.

TAWN3: Some are probably born there at some point

Pixelmeow: I don't tend to be as competent "automatically", but am like her in other ways. Just a female, not a screaming warrior.

BPRAL22169: But I thought part of the point is that scientists and accountants are "ordinary people" (as defined by the story)

ddavitt: That's when it becomes impossible to control what types are in the colony.

Pixelmeow: I think they are ordinary, having a mother who is an accountant and knowing some scientists.

TAWN3: In 1940's, how many folk were college educated or advanced degree? Hmm?

Pixelmeow: Well, yeah...

ddavitt: I'm married to a scientist...

TAWN3: Your not normal!

ddavitt: He's normal....

TAWN3: :-)

ddavitt: That's enough :-)

Prnzofthvs: big boom in degrees came after WWII, with the GI bill

Pixelmeow: I don't claim to be normal either :-)

BPRAL22169: They upped the ante for "normal" in the Moon.

TAWN3: Yes Bill

ddavitt: Same in UK with free university education

AGplusone: In the 50s all the kids of the GI Bill generation thought being a scientist was achievable

TAWN3: October Sky

Pixelmeow: I think it is achievable now, myself.

Pixelmeow: I could do it if it weren't for the math

AGplusone: Thats what their parents told them ... and expected

Prnzofthvs: before that , average jane or joe couldn't really afford college quite often

TAWN3: How many will go to universty, how many to the mines

ddavitt: Not if you're not the type though; I don't think I could be, or want to be.

Pixelmeow: Ick.

Major oz: More achieveable now than ever before.

Featherz Dad: Unsuitable people have to be there for contrast, so the author PUTS them there. OK while you are reading it but it does seem odd on analysis.

TAWN3: Yes

TAWN3: Like Prince fo theives said, GI Bill

Major oz: Tawn, those that are WAS will go on, those that aren't won't.

Pixelmeow: Yes, Will... It is Will, isn't it?

TAWN3: Changed the economy and country

Major oz: ......self selecting.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Prnzofthvs: WAS???

geeairmoe2: Does his later works reflect his true opinion of what a college education became?

Major oz: Worth A S____

Pixelmeow: I think they do.

ddavitt: Jo and Allan finally click as to why they belong on Luna; high IQ, high compatability index,superior education..do they really show all those qualities?

TAWN3: ? To a degree Oz, but more are today than before, if I understand what you are sayimng correctly

Pixelmeow: I saw it while I was in school.

AGplusone: October Sky's author writes the same theme, the 'political' person aboard the space ship, in his recent fiction ... totally unqualified, like Joan London ... and sees the same problems as the 'brat' caused in Black Pits.

ddavitt: Especially the second one?

TAWN3: Some folks will np matter what. Likewise, some won't

Prnzofthvs: thought you w3ere shortening Wasp 8-)

Major oz: More college, MUCH less, as a percentage, in the sciences.

TAWN3: But there is a huge middle ground

Pixelmeow: Jane, I didn't see those qualities in them, but what do I know?

Major oz: WAY too many in the psych / soch / ed garbage

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: I understand that there has been a big drop in people studying math and the sciences in the last years.

n1yqh a: For the record - "engineering" counts as "in the sciences" in this context... ;-)

Major oz: yes

Pixelmeow: Yes, Mike.

AGplusone: Homer Hickam, Jr., Back To The Moon

ddavitt: I think they don't get on well with people on Luna or Earth; seem to put up people's backs

Pixelmeow: I guess I'm technically a scientist...

Pixelmeow: Yes, Jane, I thought so too. I just didn't see their genious...

ddavitt: Yet, miss Stone is glad to see them return...

dwrighsr: Well. technically, I am a 'computer scientist' :-)

Pixelmeow: Me too!

ddavitt: Am i the only "Arts" one here? Where's Danielle?

TAWN3: Yes, and they say no one is going into computer science anymore. That shocked me!

AGplusone: Humanities (English)

dwrighsr: Althought, 'Applications Engineer' would be a better description.

BPRAL22169: History for me -- and DON'T call me a "social scientist" -- them's fightin' words, pallie.

Pixelmeow: I am not an arts person, just have a healthy appreciation of some artists and times. :-)

TAWN3: scientist socialpath?

Pixelmeow: I am a computer scientist, that's my degree!

dwrighsr: My undergraduate was in German Lit as I mentioned earlier. and my first master's in Linguistics.

n1yqh a: Don't worry, there are plenty of folks who try engineering and give up and turn into computer scientists... ;-)

Major oz: You're right, Bill......social science is an oxymoron.

geeairmoe2: Specialization is for insects, unquote.

dwrighsr: Right on

Pixelmeow: :-P MIKE!!!

Major oz: Cant be both

TAWN3: Linguistics applies to computer science, as well as many other things

Featherz Dad: Sales and web design and write about baseball. Not science or arts, I would guess

ddavitt: I mean it in that I have a BA not a BSc; this makes my husband pour scorn, whilst i laugh at his grubby fingernails :-)

geeairmoe2: Baseball is Art!

AGplusone: or into English majors :-) and go on to law school, like "Shorty's dad"

TAWN3: David (the Linguistics one), have you read Null-A?

BPRAL22169: Proselytizing going on!

Pixelmeow: Linguisics applies to CS, but it gives me a headache. I will not be designing any compilers!!!

dwrighsr: You are quite right. That's actually how I made the transition from theoretical linguistics, (as in Chomsky et al) and theoretical computer science.

Major oz: I did exactly what Zeb did for exactly the same reasons: degrees in science and engineering and a doc in (yeccchhh) education.

Pixelmeow: Theoretical CS gives me a headache.

dwrighsr: Read Null-A and the sequel many years ago and have re-read them many times.

n1yqh a: Even within some fields there's a big difference between scientists and wannabes - I know some CS's who are truly scientist types, and others who are merely computer programmers.

TAWN3: As a rule, I tend to like all the advanced degreed people I know, at least on some level

Pixelmeow: Theoretical math and algorithms are okay, it's the compilers that I can't stand. Just let me do some code...

TAWN3: The other sciences count too.

Major oz: ...because it's the quickest, slickest, no-brainer way to a PhD

n1yqh a: And no, Pix, I'm not trying to bash on you! Sorry!

Prnzofthvs: Business major here, with degree I never used at all.

TAWN3: ! Ah, me too, David :-)

Featherz Dad: Sign in the faculty lounge when I was in school: Faculty memberes are reminded that the Education faculty are our fully qualified colleaues and should be treated as equals.

dwrighsr: I have to admit that I have never designed any compilers either. Give me code any time.

ddavitt: A degree is shorthand for someone who's got the patience to stick at something for X number of years at low or no pay and work fairly unsupervised

Pixelmeow: No, I know, I am more of a hands on person, and a lot of what we touched on in CS went further in engineering , but you had to be in engineering to take the classes. Spit!

ddavitt: Subject is 9 almost) irelevant.

Major oz: ...but my passions are art and history.....

dwrighsr: and rack up tremendous debt.

Featherz Dad: scared of grad school, joined the Army

Prnzofthvs: Jane, Tawn has obviously never met Penny.

Major oz: ...after flyfishing, of course....

Pixelmeow: Don't even talk to me about Penny.

Prnzofthvs: advanced degree people comment?

TAWN3: Which means they are qualified to run things and or lead things

ddavitt: Penny...there's a blast from the past...

TAWN3: Although the school of hard knocks has it's strong points too

Featherz Dad: don't follow leaders

Prnzofthvs: I still have her on my buddy list; she's online quite a bit.

TAWN3: for above average individuals

Pixelmeow: Yes, Tawn, it does!

ddavitt: many ways to reach the top.

Pixelmeow: Well, you talk to her. I don't get on well with the closed minded.

Prnzofthvs: Will: or talk to parking meters

n1yqh a: For what it's worth, I've learned a hell of a lot more electronics design stuff in the last six months working than the previous four years in school...

Featherz Dad: Damnit, Pr, we are gonna MISS you

TAWN3: Penny?

ddavitt: AFHer

Pixelmeow: Yes, that's for sure. Mike, I just wish I could get some more logic circuit design stuff...

ddavitt: Or was.

Major oz: But, nl, would you have been able to learn it if you hadn't been to school?

Prnzofthvs: Didn't say I talk to her; gimme a break! Just too lazy to delete her from my buddy list!

Featherz Dad: Funny world. A degree means more, in absolute terms, in the THEATER nowadays than it does to many tech firms.

Pixelmeow: Steve, you are a treasure.

TAWN3: Exactly Oz, you beat me to it.

Prnzofthvs: No, that's Jane's nickname

TAWN3: You get the grounding in school, the practicxal app in real life.

Major oz: School is a place to learn technique, not facts.

ddavitt: When I was little...

n1yqh a: Considering that a lot of it has been digital design, and the one intro to digital design course didnt' teach me anything I didn't already know, yes,, I would have been able to do it even without the degree...

Pixelmeow: Oz, if I hadn't had the math before the logic circuit design, I don't know that I could have understood it at all, much less loved it.

ddavitt: Never had one later

ddavitt: Short for "little trasure chest buried at the bottom of the garden'. Don't ask me why...

Prnzofthvs: When I was in training in the service, the best advice they gave us was: "Don't go to the field and tell everybody they're dooing it wrong, cuz you weren't taught that way in school."

dwrighsr: Bad Math preparation. That was my problem with physics and why I switched to German.

Major oz: I once had a prodigy in my logic class...a biker woman with tongue studs, etc.

Pixelmeow: Yay for tongue studs!!! Chris has 2...

ddavitt: I'm going to have to sleep soon; can i just ask about the third one before I go?

Major oz: She came up with a transition theorem that we presented at the university of Washington.

Pixelmeow: No comments, please~

Major oz: It is now a standard in the field.

Pixelmeow: Yes, Jane, do.

dwrighsr: GA Jane

geeairmoe2: My mother used to say: There are three ways to do something. The right way, the wrong way, and the Army way.

ddavitt: Sounds ouchy Pix...

Major oz: She disappeared after taking her assiciates degree

Major oz: ......go figure.....

Pixelmeow: Jane, it isn't for me, but it looks great on him.

Prnzofthvs: old cartoon: Graduate says "well, I've got my BA!" World answers: "sit down, and I'll teach you the rest of the alphabet"

ddavitt: I saw it as being "shocking" for the time that Grace used maiden name, worked and was prepared to seduce someone..

ddavitt: Was heinlein pushing the limits on this one?

Pixelmeow: At the time, I think so.

Major oz: where are we, Jane?

TAWN3: what work are you referring to Jane?

BPRAL22169: The realization of the feminism of the first thired of the century.

n1yqh a: Did he ever *not* push the limits in some way?

Pixelmeow: It didn't shock me, but I'd read others of his later works. We also walk dogs...

ddavitt: Walk Dogs

Major oz: hokay

TAWN3: Oh

TAWN3: I noticed that too

Pixelmeow: So, Bill, did you see it as feminism?

Featherz Dad: I dunno. It may have been pushing the limits in SF but that kind of character was not unknown in slick fiction, where he was breaking in

BPRAL22169: That story, btw, was based on a real company.

TAWN3: but I'm an ardent anti-feminist

n1yqh a: which company?

TAWN3: I beleive people should be allowed to get along together

n1yqh a: And where can I buy a gravity shield?

BPRAL22169: The feminist issues of the Havelock Ellis era included independent work and sexual fulfillment at will.

ddavitt: For the time 1941, seemed quite daring

geeairmoe2: I like the woman's movement; especially when I walking behind it.

TAWN3: I don't think you had all these stupid women in ages past as Steinham and others would have you beleive

Major oz: Didn't Hepburn play that role in a dozen or so movies?

Pixelmeow: I'm not up on feminism either, but I saw her as more of a "liberated woman", than my idea of feminism.

BPRAL22169: Plus most important, control over reproductive rights.

dwrighsr: The one thing that struck me about 'Dogs' was the gravity device invention. I then thought that this device shows up in a *lot* of stories. but not the FH ones. Starman Jones. COTG, and others

ddavitt: WW2 may have changed attitudes a bit of course but this was quite early on

ddavitt: Yes; I agree with Jim G that this is NOT a FH story

BPRAL22169: "Assorted Services" was Forrest j. Ackerman and his girlfriend morojo.

ddavitt: Too many anomalies

Major oz: FH ?

BPRAL22169: Future History

Featherz Dad: I never thought it fit the FH

ddavitt: Future histiry

dwrighsr: Future History

TAWN3: Exactly Oz, Hepburn, Stanwyck, Deitrich, the list goes on and on

Pixelmeow: No,I never would say this wasin FH

ddavitt: I know of Ackerman

n1yqh a: I thought the extreme importance of art - similar to Jubal's statues in SiaSL - was interesting.. The "Flower"...

TAWN3: Oh, she was not a feminist!

BPRAL22169: Cannot possibly be -- if for no other reason the aliens of the other planets of this system.

Pixelmeow: I wasn't too fond of Hepburn in a part of a movie where she and whatshisname were lawyers.

ddavitt: Notice that in the office is a picture of a Buddha

TAWN3: She was a real person, competent, nice to be around

Prnzofthvs: But it took feminism to wake people up, so we could get to "liberation." If you think the Glass Ceiling is gone, think again

BPRAL22169: Adams Rib

geeairmoe2: Adam's Rib?

Major oz: "You know how to whistle, don't you. You just put your lips together and ..... blow"

geeairmoe2: Key Largo.

ddavitt: Is that a real picture? krantz's weeping Buddha?

Pixelmeow: Idon't know, I just didn't see her as "liberated". She was fawning so much to him it wasn't funny.

TAWN3: Yes, Art, interesting. I noticed that too

Pixelmeow: Is Art here???

ddavitt: But as I said on afh you just don't carry a Ming bowl in your bra

ddavitt: ridiculous idea...

dwrighsr: I never did get just how they managed to get the 'Flower'. was it indeed the original or was it a copy. Or did they manage to leave a copy in the British Museum? Any thoughts. BTW Jane, I thought that your comment about Grace's carrying the 'Flower' was hilarious.

Featherz Dad: I thought that line was from _to Have and Have Not_ not _Key Largo_

Pixelmeow: Yes, Jane, you dont.

Major oz: A woman that is liberated (as opposed to Liberated [ the trendy kind ]) can flirt, work, do whatever it takes to achieve the goal......she can "get on with it"

geeairmoe2: Right, Have/Have Not.

Major oz: She has no need for politics

ddavitt: Was Grace black? Reference to skin bleaching?

Major oz: ....right, DAD

TAWN3: Prnz, it is illegal in many organizations for the women to talk to the men and vice versa, "harassment. Not my idea of liberation

Pixelmeow: Yes, Oz, but she just didn't convince me. She was not my idea of what a woman like her should be like, but then, she wasn't a RAH char...

BPRAL22169: I don't know -- the definitions for "liberated," "Liberated" and some of the definitions of Feminism I've seen here were formed long, long after the story was written.

Prnzofthvs: I've never seen that at all. Just no inappropriate behavior

AGplusone: Who, Grace, Pixel?

dwrighsr: I thought that that was 'bleached hair'

ddavitt: Both; hair and skin

ddavitt: strange...

Pixelmeow: No, I got sidetracked by a similarity with a movie with Hepburn and whatsisname who are lawyers and married.

geeairmoe2: Feminism has come to mean: Woman can do what they want, and Men can do what women want.

ddavitt: Unless, as a brunette she had olive skin and it would have looked strange with platinum hair

Pixelmeow: I liked Grace, I just thought she was a bit abrupt.

ddavitt: Like Wyoh did in reverse

AGplusone: Brunettes used to bleach their skin ... when they bleached their hair

Major oz: my point, Bill.....we (many of us) try to couch our comments in today's "speak".

Pixelmeow: I didn't like how she treated that millionaire woman.

TAWN3: Yes, bleached skin, I didn't translate that into race, perhaps should have

Featherz Dad: ALL human relationships have always meant "women can do what they want and men can do what women want" at least in MY family.

BPRAL22169: I just remembered -- in ITGO he has his skin bleached for his disguise -- and in Puppet masters, too, I think.

ddavitt: She was so snobby tho Pix; still she was a customer

Major oz: I doubt if Hepburn ever thought of herself as "liberated", ....but NEVER as beholdin'

Pixelmeow: I never thought of Grace as black, you can be "white" and have much darker skin than mine.

ddavitt: I'm not convinced; just a possibility as heinlein was being so daring in other ways

Pixelmeow: Yes, Jane, that's my point exactly.. She was a customer, therefore you don't treat her that way./

ddavitt: Shouldn't take her money and laugh at her...

AGplusone: Ah, but in the 40-50s dark skin was not preferred ... mediterranean types weren't always considered 'white'

ddavitt: yes...

dwrighsr: That's another point that I disagree with Gifford. He claims that Rod Walker is black and that Ginny confirmed that. I haven't asked her myself yet, but I just don't get that. I frankly don't see any evidence one way or the other.

Pixelmeow: Yea, David, that's how I thought about it.

AGplusone: Why not ... they do it all the time, take your money and laugh at you.

TAWN3: Dessy Arnaz?

ddavitt: It's getting harder as the years go by to read all the implications into the stories that the authjor intended

AGplusone: Desi wasn't 'white' ...

geeairmoe2: I think with Mrs. Peter von Hogbein Johnson (what a name!) Grace felt "all the good things we can be doing and we have to put up with her skewed view of what's important."

ddavitt: Rod has never seemed black to me...

AGplusone: Lucy did a very brave thing marrying him.

Pixelmeow: But David, I have a problem with someone being that condescending to a customer. Right to their face.

TAWN3: Exactly

Prnzofthvs: Desi was Cuban, right?

Pixelmeow: I agree with how they thought about her, just don't say it to her face.

AGplusone: So do I, but was she really ...

TAWN3: nor was Moreno

AGplusone: yes

TAWN3: OK, Rod Walker, which book?

ddavitt: The clues can all be reads two ways; H was being too subtle for me there

ddavitt: Tunnel

BPRAL22169: TiTS

dwrighsr: Tunnel in the Sky

Prnzofthvs: I think Lucy was more in love than brave.

Pixelmeow: And about Richard Colin Campbell Ames ...

AGplusone: Cuban was legally mestizo in some states. They used to sneak blacks into the majors and claim they were "Cuban"

geeairmoe2: Rod Walker was Tunnel. (I will forever refuse to refer to my fav RAH juvenile as TiTs!)

BPRAL22169: And Joan Eunice.

ddavitt: Ther i definitely disagree with Jim; we talked about it on afh IIRC

BPRAL22169: Possibly

dwrighsr: Which Jane?

Pixelmeow: Who, Jane?

BPRAL22169: Which one, Jane?

Pixelmeow: :-)

ddavitt: Colin not being black; there there are clues

Pixelmeow: I never thought he was, especially since we never really meet his mother.

Featherz Dad: Cubans recognize a color line. Black Cubans couldn't pitch in the ML. Dolph Luque could 1921-32 plus os minus

ddavitt: ARC says there aren't

Major oz: I view the case of Rod's "color" to be written to encourage debate. I know, given the chance, I would have done it just that way so that fans would argue about it.

geeairmoe2: My impression was that LL was very pale (like most redheads) and Ames was merely more tanned.

ddavitt: Colin is black, rod isn't, Eunice may be. so there!

ddavitt: :-):-)

TAWN3: I missed it!

TAWN3: And Tunnel is one of my favorite works

AGplusone: Agree ... but that wasn't necessarily what the managers tried to imply when they slipped one in ... Will.

ddavitt: carol says he reminds her of her brother; could be appearance, I take it to be personality wise

AGplusone: Or they'd say "indian" ... I can recall stories.

ddavitt: His scar shows pink....

Featherz Dad: In the segragated South, immigrants from Latin America were often accepted as white, more often not. Depended on several factors

AGplusone: Like money ...

Pixelmeow: I didn't think Rod was black, either. And My scars show pink, too!

TAWN3: "passing"

dwrighsr: Well. Frankly, I have an ulterior motive for believing that Rod was white. And that is because when I read it, I *knew* that Caroline was black and seeing the relationship between Rod and Caroline caused me, a born and bred southerner to stop and think that maybe some of the things I had been taught were not true. It meant a great deal to me.

geeairmoe2: I'm very pale and my scar is white.

ddavitt: More value in them being different and yet still partners?

Prnzofthvs: I agree with that, Jane. Also, his description at the end of the book describes him as being more like Wild Bill Hickok or Buffalo Bill, than Bill Pickett.

TAWN3: ohhhhhhhhh

Major oz: I wonder if the title: We Also Walk Dogs influenced Blish's motto on city hall: "Mow your lawn, lady?"

AGplusone: I took David's view point ... always thought the argument was a bit far-fetched that Rod was black.

TAWN3: I'm Norwegian and my scar is white

ddavitt: Could be...it never really occured to me; not such an issue in the Uk

TAWN3: I have seen pink scars, on black guys!

TAWN3: How observant!!!!

AGplusone: But I agree that Ricard Ames-Colin Campbell is certainly black.

Featherz Dad: Never occured to me that Rod was Black. Relationship with Carolyn seemed more interesting if he weren't

Pixelmeow: Yes, yes, but his color never occured tome, I never thought about it.

ddavitt: Well...maybe it's best ambiguous; readers can interpret it as best pleases them?

dwrighsr: I'm still not sure about Ames. I have a theory about that, but I'll have to do some research before I'll commit to it.

Pixelmeow: I especially don't think Richard is black because Michael Whelan drew him white. :-)

Featherz Dad: I often don't think about an SF character's skin color or "race:

Pixelmeow: Me either, Will.

BPRAL22169: I like the idea that Heinlein was insidiously sneaking in anti-racist time bombs, myself.

TAWN3: oh I think it is definite if it makes that comment about a scar

BPRAL22169: Good on him!

ddavitt: He's darker than Sam Beaux who is a "black panther"

geeairmoe2: I don't notice race unless its pointed out.

AGplusone: I agree with you, Pixel. Wouldn't be the first time a cover arist didn't have a clue.

AGplusone: artist

Pixelmeow: Yep.

TAWN3: Yes Bill, I agree

Pixelmeow: Friday is beautiful.

TAWN3: he did it all the time in other works

Pixelmeow: Not ugly!

TAWN3: Star Beast, SC, etc

ddavitt: Sometimes though, i see H as being slightly racist...

Major oz: ????????

Major oz: where?

BPRAL22169: That requires explanation.

Featherz Dad: Friday is wonderful and beautiful and vulnerable and sad. I have to reread that book soon.

ddavitt: Why is it the black kid in project Nightmare who blows up a city and not granny whatshername?

Featherz Dad: It was his turn

Major oz: ...coin flip.....

geeairmoe2: Friday is my fav non-juvie.

Major oz: Never occurred to me

TAWN3: Because RAH treats folks equal, so sometimes they have to be the bad guys too!

ddavitt: maybe I'm being touchy because of PC issues that H wouldn't have been affected by back then...

Major oz: couda been grenny

BPRAL22169: if you have to read that "politically," then it's empowerment -- in 1949. you still don't get to call that racist.

Major oz: would the story have been differrent?

TAWN3: as well as the stupid or selfish ones, just like the white folk

ddavitt: Yes, have to put it into contect of tiem.

TAWN3: It wouldn't be beleiveable otherwise

ddavitt: But...also the only one without a constit

ddavitt: man in Double Star; Jimmy washington;

Featherz Dad: It would be even more important NOW to make sure you don't sugar-coat all your Black characters.

ddavitt: Ignore above one

ddavitt: Him having a constituency is seen as unusual; he gets the lapps

Featherz Dad: I would expect and HOPE that RAH would spit in the eye of PC today as well

TAWN3: Really? Watch much TV?

BPRAL22169: Part of the problem is that you can't look at a single character. if you put the boy up against the others, then it's clear there isn't a pattern of racist treatment. you can only read that as racist if you try to make the pattern out of one instance.

TAWN3: Exactly

Pixelmeow: Yes, I think RAH would despice PC.

TAWN3: Yes

Pixelmeow: Despise?

Major oz: yes

Pixelmeow: Whatever.

TAWN3: yES, DESPISE

ddavitt: I know when Heinlein shos black waiters and such he was reflecting the times.

Pixelmeow: You Brits are corrupting me!!!

Pixelmeow: Yes, Jane, I think so too.

AGplusone: One of the greatest roles I ever saw for a black actor was Woody Strode in Porkchop Hill ...

TAWN3: Think of Stranger and then think of what he would have to say about PC LOL!

Featherz Dad: Everyone nos Brits can't spel

BPRAL22169: For example, PC morons try to make the black character in FF out as racist -- but his point was bigotry damages EVERYBODY it touches.

ddavitt: I know the dialect he gives them is no worse than portraying Cockney...but sometimes it grates

Prnzofthvs: Pix: despice is what you put in de soup!

Pixelmeow: :-P Steve!

Pixelmeow: Bill, you said it up there. I agree totally.

geeairmoe2: Despice is taking it OUT of the soup.

BPRAL22169: thx

AGplusone: ... and I cannot for the life of me recall the name of the black actor who played the 'good black corporal' ... today, although he was a good actor too.

Featherz Dad: Which Bill, me about Brits knot being able to spel

Pixelmeow: :-)

geeairmoe2: Or would that be unspice?

ddavitt: I give Heinlein credit for trying....

Major oz: trying what?

Pixelmeow: Yes, to all of you! Although I meant BPral

ddavitt: It was a different time altogether.

Pixelmeow: Featherz Dad, I thought you were Will

ddavitt: trying to not be racist

Featherz Dad: You mean if I wrote a book set in New Haven and I had a Black waiter in one of the resteraunts I would offend you/

Major oz: That assumes he was to begin with.

TAWN3: Actors, I always liked Paul Robeson

Featherz Dad: I am Will and Bill

Pixelmeow: Oh...

TAWN3: VERY un PC!

ddavitt: Nope.

TAWN3: Emperor Jones, etc.

ddavitt: Ever read lost legion?

ddavitt: Look at the wauter at the start of that

ddavitt: Waiter

Pixelmeow: Oz, I try always not to be racist, in the things I say and do, and I truly am not...

geeairmoe2: I am Will and Bill. To Tell the Truth.

Pixelmeow: I don't think...

ddavitt: Fingers getting tired...

Featherz Dad: I have never read lost legion

Major oz: I am confused......"trying not to be racist" assumes a beginning state.

ddavitt: Lost legacy...sorry alternate title

Featherz Dad: I have a beginning state. It was Ohio

TAWN3: I don't try, I just be myself, if someone doesn't like it, tough.

Pixelmeow: I see what you're saying, but I'm not starting from a racist beginning, myself.

geeairmoe2: Lost Legion aka Lost Legacy

BPRAL22169: I think there is a begining state -- we all pick up racist values and have to work to get rid of them.

TAWN3: Exactly, begiing state

TAWN3: Why "try".

TAWN3: PC stuff again!

Major oz: As mine was D.C., am I stateless

Major oz: ?

Pixelmeow: At least not personally, although my father and brother are redneck to the bone...

ddavitt: Heinlein grew up at a time and place when racism was accepted.

BPRAL22169: Yes,m but not Districtless.

Featherz Dad: Knowing that race is someone ELSE'S myth works for me.

Prnzofthvs: how about this: as soon as you're born they start trying to program you to hate the same thigs they do. the same people they do. etc. You have to make an effort not to pick up those hatreds.

Major oz: And he decided not to accept it.

Pixelmeow: Yes, Steve, and I started that at a very young age.

Featherz Dad: But if race is nonsense, you can't be a racist

ddavitt: Must have required an effort of will to transcend that...or good parental influence

BPRAL22169: Right -- and get a psychic lint brush for the threads that cling to you.

TAWN3: John Brown

Pixelmeow: I remember, I was listening to my father, and just thought, that's MEAN!

dwrighsr: And sometimes you pick them up and then have to get rid of them. It's hard, I know.

Prnzofthvs: ditto

Pixelmeow: Yes, too true.

Pixelmeow: But at least you can see them for what they are

Featherz Dad: My family wasn't racist. They had their OWN problems but not that

Pixelmeow: and that's a good thing!

Prnzofthvs: like with white californians and mexican farm workers.

Featherz Dad: I don't really look down on Mexican farm workers but CALIFORNIANS, yuck

BPRAL22169: Why did "Lost Legacy" come up a bit ago?

ddavitt: I am going to have to say goodnight reluctantly. Can't keep my eyes open....enjoyed the chat. see you all soon!

Prnzofthvs: or middle-class californians and migrant workers.

ddavitt: Black waiter at start

Pixelmeow: Bye Jane!

ddavitt: Night all.

ddavitt has left the room.

Prnzofthvs: bye Jane

Featherz Dad: It must be eight million gajillion oclock there. Gnight

BPRAL22169: I think Joan Freeman might have been dark-skinned: her stockings are "creole" color.

TAWN3: Bye Jane!

dwrighsr: That was one of the things I noticed in other parts of the country. everybody had their own favorite group to look down on.

Prnzofthvs: In canada?

geeairmoe2: As an Army brat son of an NCO the prejudices passed on to us concerned the general incompetance of freshly promoted lietenants and their uppitty wives.

Pixelmeow: Who was that, Bill? From what story?

Featherz Dad: We have Yale

BPRAL22169: Joan Freeman was the woman in "Lost Legacy."

Pixelmeow: What's the story line?

TAWN3: RAH used immigrant labor imported to build the "safe" house in Nature of the Beast

Pixelmeow: I am not good with titles

Pixelmeow: Oh, the one in the mountain?

TAWN3: It was a security measure, so they wouldn't know where it was

BPRAL22169: Let's see -- a surgeon and a shrink and a student find psychic powers and hookup witha community of enlightened ones at Mt. Shasta, then battle the forces of evil and advance human evolution.

Pixelmeow: Yes! That was a good one.

Major oz: Everyone needs someone to hate. My greandparents are from Dakota TERRITORY and Minnesota. No Indians left. No slaves. No southern Europeans. So the Swedes and Norweigens decided to hate each other.

BPRAL22169: RAH thought it was an important story -- he really wanted to see it published.

BPRAL22169: Dave (wave hand frantically) I need a potty break!

Pixelmeow: I always wondered how in the world they thought they could convince everyone of their tale.

geeairmoe2: Lost Legacy had a strong condemnation of how the "status quo" will do anything to keep the "status quo", even if it means ignoring the facts.

Featherz Dad: Swedes and Norwegians had hated each other for many years prior to arriving in the Dakotas

Prnzofthvs: A chap of Norwegian descent I knew in the Navy once told me: "10,000 Svedes ran through the weeds, chased by one Nor-egian"

TAWN3: geeairmoe, sounds like Gulliver

Pixelmeow: Yes, gee, that's true...

geeairmoe2: Norwegians on my mother's side settled in Minnesota after the Civil War.

Pixelmeow: I wish I knew who all you guys are....

TAWN3: We are us!

TAWN3: :-)

Featherz Dad: Norwegians also tried to settle at Stamford Bridge in 1066, didn;t work

Pixelmeow: Oh be quiet Tawn, you wouldn't tell me last time, either!

TAWN3: that is the answer to tomorrows Koan

Major oz: PR, that was one of my grandfather's favorite songs.

TAWN3: :-)

TAWN3: :-):-):-):-):-)!

Prnzofthvs: geeairmoe, ever hear Dianne Ford's discourse on her Norwegian ancestors and coming to Minnesota?

Pixelmeow: :-\I don't get it...

geeairmoe2: Nope.

TAWN3: Pixie, I am me.

BPRAL22169: Diane Ford is one of two modern comedians who make me laugh consistently.

TAWN3: :-)

Pixelmeow: Fine. :-P

Prnzofthvs: We are the people our parents warned us about...

Pixelmeow: And who are all those lurkers?

TAWN3: No, truly, I am me, Tawn, me!@

TAWN3: That's my name!

geeairmoe2: I am the Walrus.

Pixelmeow: Okay, that's cool, just hadn't seen you around...

TAWN3: I had a freinfd named Sky once, that was HIS name, on birth certificate

Featherz Dad: Well, I am Bill or Will Reich and I live in New Haven and my cat Feather is your 'dopted son. so you know who I am

TAWN3: Goo Goo ke choo

Pixelmeow: Oh, Will, I'll always know who the keeper of my adopted cat is!

Pixelmeow: One of them, at least!

BPRAL22169: A friend always thought that was "go cook a Jew"

Prnzofthvs: Diane says the Scandinavians endured extremely stromy seas, in leaky boats, then brutal conditions coming across country to Minnesota, just to get to a place that was just as friggin' bad as the place they left.

geeairmoe2: People don't adopt cats; cats adopt people.

Pixelmeow: Yes, I think that's how it went.

TAWN3: LOLOL Bill!

Pixelmeow: Feather emailed me and offered to be my keeper.

BPRAL22169: I guess that was your rite of message.

TAWN3: Yes, and German's like Wisconsin for thre same reason, like home

Pixelmeow: :-)

Pixelmeow: :-

Pixelmeow: d

Pixelmeow: duh, sorry

AGplusone: The joke I got was the Scandinavians had already endured their time in "hell" (Ireland) and left for heaven, Minnesota ... my wife who's born in St. Paul and is half Norwegian tells that one.

Featherz Dad: And people who were raised in prison like Alabama

TAWN3: That's just common sense, human nature, whatever. You know, "It's Great to be Back" so yto speak. :-)

Prnzofthvs: That's why the Spaniards from Extrema Dura in Spain liked Mexico and California so much.

geeairmoe2: Betty White's "St. Olaf" stories on "Golden Girls" always cracked up my mother. She could see some truth in them.

AGplusone: Much milder desert

BPRAL22169: Just because it wasn't Spain, eh?

Pixelmeow: That's also why my Scottish ancestors settled in the mountains of NC...

TAWN3: David, I didn't know your wife was from Minnesota.

AGplusone: Sure is ...

Prnzofthvs: Not down in Mexico

Featherz Dad: And the Norse named the chilly northern coast of Scotland "Sutherland" because it was sunnier than what they had LEFT

geeairmoe2: Who named Greenland?

Major oz: Eric the Red

BPRAL22169: Viking propagandist.

Prnzofthvs: When my plane landed in Spain, I was bemused to notice that the weeds along the runway were identical to those back home!

Major oz: ...cause it was.....then

Featherz Dad: The Danes, as a public relations move.

AGplusone: Eric ... he was trying to con settlers I'm told into leaving Iceland

TAWN3: Greenland is bad, so name it good, Iceland is good, so name it bad.

TAWN3: An immigration trick

Major oz: In the eighth century, Greenland looked like Ireland does today.

TAWN3: That way they will go where I want them too, but I can keep the good land for me and mine.

Featherz Dad: Yup, Greenland was awful. Also the site of the only major military triumph of the Eskimos. Wiped out the Danish settments. No Greenland did not look like Ireland today. Iceland did

TAWN3: It was overgrazed

BPRAL22169: That's right -- I forgot about Maunder's Minimum and the end of the Little Ice Age.

TAWN3: PBS just did three specials on the Vikings, archaeology and digs in Iceland and Greenland

BPRAL22169: Climatic change in the 11th century I think.

Major oz: ....ok....southern Greenland

Featherz Dad: You CANNOT create an icecap by overgrazing. Greenland was NOT desirable real estate at any time in human memory

Major oz: hokay....whatever you say

TAWN3: No

Prnzofthvs: Well, my memory peters out at last Tuesday, so that's not saying much, Will...

TAWN3: Overgrazing decimated the food supply

TAWN3: they died out, starvation

TAWN3: they brought in animals with no predators

TAWN3: Thee were Indians there who fished and other things but they wouldn't learn from them

Featherz Dad: You couldn't grow any European crop with any good chance of success when Eric found Greenland. You could live fine by hunting or stock-raising. The Eskimos SAY they killed the last ones and some finds support that. There were no Indians there. Eskimos who came in from the West

TAWN3: Can even find dog bones with human gnaw marks from the last days

geeairmoe2: I thought only the white man did ecologically damaging things.

Prnzofthvs: Are you talking about Greenland, or Vinland?

BPRAL22169: Aborigines in Australia did first major terraforming.

Prnzofthvs: with the Indians, I mean?

Featherz Dad: Greenland had no Indians, only eskimos. And they did wipe out the last weakened Danish settlements.

geeairmoe2: Rats, then I'm not the cause of all the world's ills?

Featherz Dad: _I_ am the cause of all the world

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Featherz Dad: ;s ills

n1yqh a: speaking of wierd climatctic stuff, is anybody planning to head out somewhere dark tonight and try to catch the aroura?

TAWN3: OK, not Indians, "natives".

BPRAL22169: If you want to be, you can be. It's all right with me.

AGplusone: Welcome Ron!

TAWN3: Prnz, I think you are right

TAWN3: Vinland

Dehede011: Hot diggedy dawg, I made it.

Featherz Dad: Hi

BPRAL22169: We're having something like a fullish house.

AGplusone: We're OT tonight ... any thing seems the topic ...

BPRAL22169: Now we need to talk Portia1972 into installing AIM . . .

TAWN3: Hi Dehede!

BPRAL22169: i've got one more Q about "Black Pits"

geeairmoe2: Glad we're back up to 14 in the room. Thirteen makes me nervous.

Dehede011: That sucker was hard to get right.

Pixelmeow: Okay

dwrighsr: Total unduplicated count was 17, although not all at same time.

Featherz Dad: I have to go to bed. I assume I have annoyed my quota of people.

Pixelmeow: Go ahead Bill

Pixelmeow: I meant BPRAL

Major oz: Aurora: I heard a warning 'bout transmission interference. Do you know tht time this is supposed to take place

geeairmoe2: I annoy, therefore I am.

Featherz Dad: If not, think of something awful for me to have said and assume that I said it. See you

BPRAL22169: Just a sec -- I'm going to invite LucyLou in.

Pixelmeow: No, Will!

TAWN3: Oh, heard about that

n1yqh a: Should be starting anyrime now and contuing for three-four days

Featherz Dad: not you, Pix. Feather would n't like it.

Pixelmeow: What's up?

TAWN3: but last year they said this year would be bad overall

Featherz Dad: night

Dehede011: You mean the sun flare?

Featherz Dad has left the room.

AGplusone: Hope that doesn't kill Saturday

TAWN3: You are talking about solar flares, correct?

n1yqh a: It's the solar maximum this next year or so...

Pixelmeow: What happened?>

geeairmoe2: We're going to be clouded over here in the Heart of Texas. Rain in June. Go figure.

Prnzofthvs: geeairmoe: where in TX are you?

n1yqh a: Yeah, three biggies in the last two days (technically, "coronal mass ejections, not *quite* the same as a flare, but I'm not a solar physicist so I don't know the difference... )

BPRAL22169: Anybody else notice the "Disaster of 84" in "Black Pits"?

Prnzofthvs: I'm coming thru texas on my way to CA and Baja.

Pixelmeow: Yes, I remember

geeairmoe2: Halfway between Dallas and San Antonio.

BPRAL22169: It's the same one that was referenced in -- darn, forgot the name of the story. Let me look it up in ARC . . .

AGplusone: I wondered whether he was referring to Orwell

TAWN3: Yes

Pixelmeow: I remembered something like that, too.

TAWN3: Blew up the back side of the Moon

TAWN3: see what Gifford has to say about it

TAWN3: it is a side note from another story

BPRAL22169: He says it's from an article. Back of the Moon.

TAWN3: Yes

TAWN3: I just read it tonight

TAWN3: (Gifford)

n1yqh a: Is that the one from Gulf?

Prnzofthvs: I'll be too far north. I'm coming across at about the Amarillo latitude

TAWN3: Just read Gifford's comments tonight

TAWN3: Think so

Lucylou98 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Nope - I thought I remembered it from "Gulf," or "Blowups Happen," but it's a different piece.

TAWN3: Originally, it blew up Earth

geeairmoe2: Lot of open space driving.

TAWN3: He moved it to the back side of the Moon, and used the same scientists names

Lucylou98: Evening

dwrighsr: Yeah. I think that it was in one of his 'save the world' attempts.

TAWN3: Yes David

Dehede011: HI LL

TAWN3: That's what Gifford says

AGplusone: Hi, Lucy

Major oz: yo, loose

TAWN3: Hi LucyLou!!

dwrighsr: Hi Lisa

Lucylou98: Hi, David, Tawn,Oz, dw,everyone else:-)

TAWN3: HI!

Major oz: In what story did it blow up Earth?

TAWN3: Wait

TAWN3: page 14 and 54 Gifford Hardback

TAWN3: unpublished

Dehede011: BRB - coke

Major oz: ?

TAWN3: editor sent it back

TAWN3: RAH mentions it in EU

Major oz: Ah, so. It never happened in a published work, then?

TAWN3: scuze me, page 50 "Back of the Moon"

Lucylou98: Which story is being discussed?

AGplusone: Had a question whether anyone wants to do more than "Searchlight," "Ordeal In Space" and "The Green Hills of Earth" (the story) next time.

TAWN3: Elks Magazine, Jan, '47

Major oz: Right.......I know the "back of the moon" start.

BPRAL22169: "In the article ["Back of the Moon," Elks 1/47] h builds two small scenarios. in the published portion he presents 'Catastrophe 1955,' in which two scientists, Maurice Feinstein and Thomas Dooley, are farefully watching the nuclear plant run and acting as a final fail-safe link. A moment's inattention and an unexpected turn of phsyical processes later, the plant explodes, taking the eastern half of the US

BPRAL22169: (and then much of the world) with it.

Major oz: start =>part

geeairmoe2: Don't recall RAH ever blowing up Earth. Did "rock" it a little in "Moon" and some damage done by the Bugs in ST.

TAWN3: Your quoting Gifford Bill :-)

BPRAL22169: In the unpublished half of the article, Heinlein follow sup with a short scenario fo a vacationing couple visiting the Moon and the site of the Great Disaster, which occurred on the Moon and killed only the six scientists at the site.

BPRAL22169: Yes.

Pixelmeow: David, I don't have my stories to hand, but whatever you decide will be fine, I'm sure.

dwrighsr: Is that why we sang 'Hang down your head Tom Dooley'?

AGplusone: Then we'll do those three ...

BPRAL22169: "Compare these elements with Black Pits . . . the short story completely recycles the unused scenario, even to the description of tie site and the names on the monument, and adds only the incident of the yougn boy getting lost as a story hook."

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: a definite "high grading" example ...

TAWN3: Why Searchlight?

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

TAWN3: Logic of Empire is next in the book GHOE

AGplusone: Never waste a story ... because it's listed next in the chronology ... Tawn.

BPRAL22169: That's the second time tonight i did that -- ejected myself and had to use the icon to get back.

TAWN3: Ahhhh

TAWN3: Not in the time line I'm looking at

TAWN3: Oh, THAT problem again:-)

AGplusone: "Searchlight" is in Expanded Universe

BPRAL22169: I do have a suggestion for a break in the FH schedule.

AGplusone: I think

AGplusone: What suggestion?

Major oz: Logic isn't in my copy of Past

BPRAL22169: Ron wanted to to one on on "Gulf" when Assignment in Eternity came out again. Are you ready to host one now, Ron?

TAWN3: Logic is after GHOE in the GHOE timeline

AGplusone: p. 375 in the paper

Dehede011: I think I could cohost and carry the load. I have never hosted and need a mentor.

BPRAL22169: How many people here already have a copy of "Gulf"?

Pixelmeow: I have two, 200 miles from here...

Lucylou98: I have a copy

Major oz: me

AGplusone: We could do that ... AiE is newly reprinted at about $6.50

geeairmoe2: Have copy.

Prnzofthvs: I have one, at the bottom of a box.

AGplusone: in paperback by Baen

dwrighsr: I've got my copy.

TAWN3: AiE = ?

TAWN3: Oh

dwrighsr: Assignment in Eternity

TAWN3: nevermind

TAWN3: Yes

Dehede011: Do I have a volunteer as a mentor?

AGplusone: (I have my old, old copy ... with the nude girl on the cover reaching for the sky)

BPRAL22169: I was thinking -- if enough people need to order it, maybe we could schedule "Gulf" for a month from now; but if enough people already have it -- which looks like the case -- it could be scheduled for two weeks.

TAWN3: Dawned on me

BPRAL22169: Tawned on you.

TAWN3: I have it

TAWN3: :-)

geeairmoe2: Tawn got dawned on.

BPRAL22169: That's 10 of the 14

AGplusone: Why don't we take the next three, which gets us almost up to "Revolt In 2100" and then do "Gulf" in four weeks.

TAWN3: :-)

BPRAL22169: Fine by me.

Dehede011: Do I have a volunteer for a mentor? Bill? Dave?

AGplusone: Because we're going to have to dig up copies of Menace and 2100 for the next bunch after that.

n1yqh a: I've got a copy at home, where I'll be in two weeks..

Dehede011: Hal?

Prnzofthvs: I'll be in Mexico by then, but I'll be with you in spirit. That is, if I can stop having fun long enough to think about you lot! 8-)

TAWN3: open the pod bay doors Hal

BPRAL22169: "Wake up, Dave, there's something I think you need to see . . ."

Dehede011: LOL

AGplusone: Dave is figuring out how to shut off Hal ...

BPRAL22169: Be thinking about a starting post for AFH.

AGplusone: from his Macintosh it's easy.

TAWN3: :-)

AGplusone: I'll help, Ron.

Major oz: Interesting, David.....I have the same copy.

Pixelmeow: You guys have totally lost me, I'm off for a drink. BRB

TAWN3: Hey, OddCon, 2001, Madison, Wisconsin, 2001

Dehede011: Good, I have a volunteer.

AGplusone: I'm mentor, i.e., help Ron, host "Gulf" when it comes.

Dehede011: Dave and I even work the same hours.

Prnzofthvs: I know I'll be gone, but has the idea of a discussion of the covers and how they changed with the times, ever been proposed?

AGplusone: They printed a lot of those old Berkeley editions of TPTT

BPRAL22169: I think that will work out for me -- I've got to go back to Santa Cruz the week of July 10-13, but i think this will fal lbefore that.

AGplusone: and AiE

TAWN3: Good idea Prnz!

TAWN3: A very interesting topic!

dwrighsr: Have y'all seen all of the covers on Beth's website?

Dehede011: Has any one heard anything about a new issue of PTT

AGplusone: Some of themk, David ...

BPRAL22169: I've got copies of AiE if people need an extra. The cost will be -- you have to donate a Heinlein book (not AiE) to the heinlein book exchange.

Prnzofthvs: the late 50's and early 60's covers are definitely military in nature - block letters, etc. then in the 60's they were definitely Hippie-inspired

TAWN3: no David

TAWN3: URL?

dwrighsr: Hang on. I'll get it

TAWN3: Kaz Vorpal has a cover link too, may be the same site

geeairmoe2: Hippie-style covers after SiaSL became a fav of the free love crowd?

AGplusone: Ginny's had everything in PTT reprinted in the last two years (2100 & Meth's Children, Menace, ManWho, and GreenHills)

TAWN3: Hate those!

Prnzofthvs: I liked the hippie style; of course I were one then.

TAWN3: :-)

BPRAL22169: Apparently it's OP? The SF Book Club has asked for a reprint contract.

AGplusone: Yes, it's OP ...

AGplusone: altho you can occasionally find one in existing stock

TAWN3: OP = ?

geeairmoe2: OP?

AGplusone: out of print

BPRAL22169: Out of Print

BPRAL22169: it's a bookseller's conventional abbreviation.

Prnzofthvs: other peoples

TAWN3: yes, got htat from the context of the next line

Prnzofthvs: you have to steal it from them

AGplusone: What day exactly are you going to be in L.A. Steve?

geeairmoe2: Shouldn't they be OOPs then, seeing RAH out of print is a mistake.

BPRAL22169: In 60 years they still haven't learned.

AGplusone: ooops is good ... zing!

Major oz: budda bing.

Prnzofthvs: I'm not sure, Dave. I haven't made the trip hauling a trailer and being old before. 8-)

BPRAL22169: ... went the strings of my heart." Returning full circle to the 40's songs we started out with . . .

AGplusone: I still wish somebody would reprint Universe and Common Sense ...

Dehede011: I always liked the cover on my copy of PTT

AGplusone: The cover I have is the one of Harriman who looks like RAH

TAWN3: With the guy looking at a dark blue black sky?

dwrighsr: Heinlein Book Cover Museum

TAWN3: That is the one I have

Dehede011: The old space sargeant.

Prnzofthvs: I'll probably be there for a few days, though, before heading south.

Major oz: Covers ? Can't beat Friday with cleavage.

TAWN3: Oh, we grok it

BPRAL22169: There are so many book club hardbacks of that one I don't think I've ever owned a paperback.

TAWN3: been there many times

TAWN3: Yes

geeairmoe2: Love that Friday cover.

AGplusone: Be our last chance ... to get a photo of you without numbers on it.

TAWN3: I have the original hardcover Friday, but I like the paperback with cleavage more

AGplusone: :-P

n1yqh a: funny. she doesn't *look* like a mutt with significant Amerind ancestry in that lily-white cover painting...

Lucylou98: Friday cover does nothing for me

Major oz: good point, nl

TAWN3: Lisa, :-)

AGplusone: Anymore than Colin Campbell looked black ... maybe the publishers were chicken

Major oz: wellllllll. loose......

Lucylou98: lol

TAWN3: How about Juan Rico becomes Johhny Rico

BPRAL22169: Well, hartley Baldwin and Joe Green and his wife were among her gene donors.

Prnzofthvs: We're having a get-together this coming tuesday evening with OJ and Pix and whoever else can make it.

BPRAL22169: How about Juan Rico becomes Casper van Diem!

Dehede011: There is more excuse for Friday's looks. Many part bloods don't show Indian colors at all

TAWN3: Simpson?

TAWN3: lo9l

TAWN3: lol

geeairmoe2: Always liked the illustartions in the trade Number of the Beast, and come to find Powers used Penthouse models.

Pixelmeow: I said just an hour ago how great Friday looks by Whelan, where were you guys then?????

Major oz: agree, Dehede

Dehede011: Then Powers embellished them.

Prnzofthvs: Pix is threatening to take pix.

Major oz: A number that I know show nothing.

TAWN3: Yes, I knew a Cherokee who was lily white and blond

Pixelmeow: :-P Steve!

TAWN3: but the fsacial features were there

geeairmoe2: We was drooling, Pix, we was drooling.

Prnzofthvs: hehe

Pixelmeow: Chris *will* get a pic!

AGplusone: my daughter, who's 1/4 Filipina and 57 other varieties looks like her Irish looking grandmother, except for eyes which are grey-green rather than blue-grey ...

Pixelmeow: Okay, gee, I can understand that. :-)

Lucylou98: Whelan does great covers, pixel:-)

Prnzofthvs: I told you, I'm gonna lurk; you won't know who I am!

Pixelmeow: Yes, he does.

Pixelmeow: Steve, Chris *will* find you, I trust him.

AGplusone: WE all FIGURE you look like Regis, Steve.

Pixelmeow: Hm, maybe I should dress like Deety...

Pixelmeow: You won't lurk then!

Prnzofthvs: Just look for the best-looking guy in the place, take a pic of him, and pretend it's me...;-)

AGplusone: That would be fun!

TAWN3: I don't know cover artists, except for Boris and the other guy like him, whose name i have forgot

BPRAL22169: Frazetta?

TAWN3: Yes

TAWN3: Thanks

Major oz: How 'bout Kelly Freas ?

TAWN3: been having a mental block on his name for the past couple of months

Prnzofthvs: I'll be there for sure, now, Pix!! Hmmm...where's the lecherous grin icon?

BPRAL22169: Give me Edd Cartier!

AGplusone: :-D

TAWN3: been so long since I paid any attention to cover artists work

dwrighsr: Freas. That strikes a bell. didn't he do a lot of the Astounding covers?

AGplusone: or this one 8-)

TAWN3: But I am starting to get into old pulp covers, they are great!

Major oz: Sounds like I know something about it, but KF is the only one I know.

Prnzofthvs: Frank Frazetta! great artist!

BPRAL22169: Hubert Rogers!

BPRAL22169: RAH's alltime favorite.

TAWN3: Yes, Franzetta is great

TAWN3: what ever happened to him?

AGplusone: Some one should put together a page of the Astounding illustrations and the other pulps if copyright would allow it

Prnzofthvs: Freas did a lot of the covers for horror comix back in the 50's/60's didn't he?

Major oz: Yeah, KF started the ............... surreal / digital looking SF illustration.

AGplusone: The ones from Citizen are the ones that stick with me

TAWN3: There is a site on the web selling reprints, cover and all

TAWN3: I came across it once

BPRAL22169: I like his for "Double Star."

Major oz: KF?

TAWN3: Had a Van Vogt novel with original cover

AGplusone: Never seen the pulp Double Star ...

BPRAL22169: Don't look now, but you can buy the original pulps for what the reproductions would cost.

Lucylou98: which Tawn?

Pixelmeow: Sorry, Heather just fell and busted her lip

Dehede011: Does anyone remember the old ASF Christmas cover of the mechanic decorating the engine room of his space ship?

BPRAL22169: I think I've got them out.

AGplusone: Oh ...

Pixelmeow: Got her a baggie with ice, and she's fine.

Prnzofthvs: ouch! she okay?

TAWN3: Can't recall the URL

Pixelmeow: Yeah, said she'd never hang between the chair and desk again, tho!

AGplusone: If you find it, post it on AFH Tawn

TAWN3: My bookmarks is up to 1465 so it will take a while to refind

TAWN3: :-)

TAWN3: Sure David

Prnzofthvs: I'll be in Mexico by then, Tawn.

BPRAL22169: There's one with the King puttering around with model railroads in full regalia.

TAWN3: I need to organize my bookmarks before my computer crashes, even thoug I back up occasionally, I would lose a lot

Prnzofthvs: Ever get the idea that I'm a bit preoccupied?

Pixelmeow: Who, YOU???

Pixelmeow: ;-)

n1yqh a: The thought just occurred to me that Friday mentioned a "permenant suntan" or "built-in suntan" at some point referring to her skin color while talking to the S-group about whts-her-name's new fiancee/husband - and attributed it to her Amerind ancestry - which would tend to contradict the lily-white cover picture...

TAWN3: Yes, some originals are affordable, others aren't

n1yqh a: (better late than never, right? )

Lucylou98: preoccupied here.

dwrighsr: That's funny. I'm sure that there were 3 Double Star covers, but I can only remember two of them.

Prnzofthvs: obsessing might be a better term, maybe

Pixelmeow: Yes, Mike, I remember that,but that doesn't make her "black", to me.

AGplusone: You can copy your AOL file cabinet and stash it in case of that contingency Tawn ... ask someone on windoze how

BPRAL22169: The other one I remember was the posters of Bonforte and The Great Lorenzo.

n1yqh a: No, not "black", but there's a difference between "not-black" and "lily-white"...

BPRAL22169: The third one may not have had the cover. Just a sec, and I'll pull the issues.

Pixelmeow: Yes, true, but so many think she's black...

AGplusone: MikeC89103 is a good one to ask.

TAWN3: OK

dwrighsr: Those are the two I recall. the King with his trains and the one with Lorenzo outside a theater?

Major oz: Really, Pix ?

Major oz: I never ran across anyone who thought so.

Dehede011: I always remember the Christmas cover from, I think, the 50s

TAWN3: She's "mix"

AGplusone: Mike = former BkCnMike (the guy who did the queue during the first Anderson chat)

Pixelmeow: I dunno, I seem to remember the conversation coming up so many times in the last 4 years or so that I've been in afh

BPRAL22169: The middle issue was a van Dongen cover.

Pixelmeow: Maybe I'm mixing it up with another one...

geeairmoe2: In Friday, when one of her sisters-in-law was going to marry the "undesireable", another sister-in-law remarks to Friday that "she is almost as dark".

Lucylou98: Wasn't that Rico or someone?

BPRAL22169: I have a friend who's French-Italian with a medium complexion that qualifies as "permanent suntan."

Pixelmeow: Yes, Rico, and Rod, And Richard, but there was a woman, too.

Dehede011: Joan, in IWFNE?

AGplusone: Jo-an Eunice

Prnzofthvs: I'll qualify as having a permanent suntan once I get down to Baja...8-) Just thought you'd like to know....

Pixelmeow: Maybe...

BPRAL22169: Her race is ambiguous.

Dehede011: Do I get points for being close?

Lucylou98: I'm trying to think....guess I never paid much attention to the race of his characters.

Pixelmeow: I never have, either. That's why I'm so surprised when it comes up///

Major oz: Her folks are the Gulf characters. I don't recall any discussion of race about them.

Pixelmeow: Me either.

Lucylou98: Only book race ever stood out for me in was, Sixth column

AGplusone: He made it more and more subtle the more he wrote ... in Galileo it was a big deal to have one kid Jewish (Abrams) and another a German-American (so close to the war) ...

Pixelmeow: Yeah, me too.

Major oz: and FF, loose.

BPRAL22169: Some of her genetic parents wer ethe Gulf people -- she was assembled from many different sources.

Prnzofthvs: Being raised to be somewhat colorblind made me ignore (or miss) lots of hints about race in RAH, except for the blatant ones.

Pixelmeow: FF was very racial to me, because of the obvious race down the line...

BPRAL22169: Racism was one of the two major themes of Farnham's Freehold.

BPRAL22169: The other being the Cold War.

TAWN3: Farnham is about race

TAWN3: Look at Space Cadet,

geeairmoe2: Friday's "built-in" suntan is attributed to being Amerindian.

TAWN3: all types

AGplusone: and MAAD ...

Pixelmeow: Yes, I thought so too, but I also saw it as a sort of alternate reality type thing, which I love.

Major oz: Really, Bill ? I thought it was revealed at the end that only the Gulf people were her parents. Peerhaps I misremember.

LearethGFS has left the room.

AGplusone: including two flavors of colonials in the foursome that Matt and Tex bunk with

Prnzofthvs: On a collateral note, I really liked the way race was handled in "Earth Abides." (for those who've read that classic)

Pixelmeow: Heather wants to say hello to all of you.

TAWN3: Prnz, I never noticed race when I first read them years ago.

Pixelmeow: Hello!

TAWN3: PC has made me change my outlook

AGplusone: No, sixteen ancestors all mixed up because the two in Gulf were incompatible

Lucylou98: Hi, Heather

TAWN3: now I notice, and it shows that all the hulabaloo is a lie

Pixelmeow: Thanks, Lisa!

Prnzofthvs: Tawn: I was the same way, except for the blatant references to race

Lucylou98: How old is she?

AGplusone: Race was a very conscious theme in survival in Alas, Babylon too, Steve.

Pixelmeow: She is 4 1/2, 5 in Sept.

TAWN3: Like I beleived Bill Cosby when he said that there were no blacks in movies before potier, then I discovered Paul Robeson and Oscar Michau

Prnzofthvs: Hi Heather; my daughter is a Heather, too!!

Lucylou98: aww My son is 6. Such a nice age

Pixelmeow: I have lots of pics on my home page...

geeairmoe2: Friday is: "Finnish, Polynesian, Amerindian, Innuit, Danish, red Irish, Swazi, Korean, German, Hindu, English -- and bits of pieces from elsewhere ... "

Pixelmeow: Thanks, Steve!

TAWN3: Stormy Weather, all those great old films

Major oz: Ah, yes......my first Pat Frank (who is black)

AGplusone: Or Woody Strode as I mentioned earlier in Pork Chop Hill

BPRAL22169: And let's not forget Lena Horne.

Pixelmeow: Heather likes that you have a heather too!

Prnzofthvs: anything for a Heather! :-D

LearethGFS has entered the room.

AGplusone: I didn't know that, Oz!

Pixelmeow: Heather smiles!

Pixelmeow: :-D

Prnzofthvs: I haven't seen my Heather in 5 years, but I'm flying her down to Baja after I get settled.

Pixelmeow: Good for you!

BPRAL22169: And we can leave out people like Stepin Fetchit and Hattie McDaniel.

Lucylou98: My son's T-ball team won first tourny game! just had to slip that in...

Pixelmeow: YAY!

Pixelmeow: Congrats!

Prnzofthvs: did I mention, btw, that I'm moving to paradise in about two wweeks?

Pixelmeow: Yes, Steve, about a bazillion times...

Dehede011: Two Yays and a Whoopee. LL

TAWN3: Pat Frank is black?!

Prnzofthvs: go t-ballers!

BPRAL22169: i thought you were going to Baja? Paradise is somewhat further north.

TAWN3: How un PC

TAWN3: SAame with Delaney

Lucylou98: Prn. I saw that! lucky person

Pixelmeow: Paradise is in Hawaii, far as I'm concerned.

BPRAL22169: Nope -- San Francisco.

Prnzofthvs: Nah, California's too flaky and shaky for me these days. (native CA-er here)

BPRAL22169: Where Paradise is Catered.

AGplusone: Pushing midnight on the "right" (so-called) coast ...

Pixelmeow: Or, wherever my Chris is...

dwrighsr: Ok. I've just looked up the section in TCTWTW. 'Marshall Beaux' is never actually described as being black. He is described as being in a 'midnight black uniform' and as 'beautiful as a black panther'. And at one point, Ames calls him 'Little Black Sambo'. I am somewhat seriously thinking that RAH is deliberately misleading us here. (more to come)

Pixelmeow: Yes, dw, I looked all that up about 2 years ago for the ng.

BPRAL22169: Campbell makes racial references to him. it seems fairly clear to me.

Pixelmeow: I know exactly where you are in the book

BPRAL22169: He could be accused of racism if he wren't close to the same skin color, etc.

Pixelmeow: Yep.

Major oz: ....and Frank Yerby......

AGplusone: If it's misdirection, it's a substantial misdirection ...

BPRAL22169: There is a much bigger mystery as far as I'm concerned -- who the hell is Sambo? What fictive universe is he from>

TAWN3: PRNZ, in three years you'll return saying "It's Great To Be Back!" :-)

Pixelmeow: ROFL

dwrighsr: I think that the name 'Marshall Sam Beaux', the descriptions and such are intended for us to think that he is black making the 'racial' comments a twist

Dehede011: Bill, you don't know Black Sambo?.

Pixelmeow: Hey, I don't know it either...

AGplusone: Little Black Sambo, the tiger butter, you musta had a deprived childhood Bill ...

Major oz: Kiddie story from 40's

BPRAL22169: Yes, but Sky marshall Beaux is not little black sambo.

Dehede011: That was a child's book many years ago that was extremely insulting to blacks

AGplusone: He's big black sambo ...

Prnzofthvs: No, Tawn; my soon-to-be status vis-a-vis matrimony, is impoverishing me to the point that I can't afford to live in the US anymore...

BPRAL22169: (except, of course, that he was an Indian . . .)

geeairmoe2: Little Black Sambo got chased around a tree by a tiger and kept running until the tiger turned into butter.

TAWN3: Oh, divorcing?

Pixelmeow: That doesn't make sense, gee, was that it???

Prnzofthvs: absolutely!

geeairmoe2: The cartoon I saw had an Indian boy in a turbin, not a black person.

TAWN3: Right Bill, subcontinent Indian

Dehede011: The second book i ever read, the first was Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer.

TAWN3: from what I've heard

AGplusone: Among other things ... an Indian from India ... where there are tigers, exactly what my Little Golden Book portrayed.

TAWN3: I'd like to get an old copy of the book some day

BPRAL22169: So Sambo was a WOG

AGplusone: In a turbin ...

Prnzofthvs: the British, who thought all east of Dover were wogs, called the Indians "black"

Pixelmeow: Um

Major oz: Not in the book I had

dwrighsr: I think that that is the point. Most of us are familiar with 'little black sambo' and the assumption would be that Marshall Beaux was black. Is this necessarily true?

Prnzofthvs: they even used the word "nigger" in reference to the Indians

BPRAL22169: Anyway, I don't think Sky Marshall Beaux is Little Black Sambo.

Major oz: He was the charachiture (sp?) of a black

AGplusone: Little Golden Books are published in Mt. Morris ILL ... Western Publishing ... write them

Dehede011: And still do PR.

Pixelmeow: I thought Sam was black because of the beaux

TAWN3: Wog, isn't that what the Scientologists call all of us?

TAWN3: I know they got it from the british for "native" or "heathen".

dwrighsr: The wogs were on Mars in NOTB

geeairmoe2: Since Beaux is pronouned like bow (as in bow and arrow), could his nickname have been Sam?

AGplusone: Anyone ever read what Kipling wrote about American Blacks in San Francisco when he came through?

BPRAL22169: What fictive reality does Sky Marshall Beaux hail from?

TAWN3: Really?

AGplusone: That is a question that's perplexed me ...

Prnzofthvs: beaux could refer to a cajun, as well.

Dehede011: WOG is Wise Oriental Gentleman according to an English friend of mine.

Prnzofthvs: many of them are quite dark

Pixelmeow: I dunno.

Major oz: tell me what fictive means and I may be able to help

TAWN3: I didn't know about Church of Scientology (CoS) then, I will ned to rererad

BPRAL22169: Of all the people on the Council ofO he's the only one who doesn't have a clearly identified fictional origin.

BPRAL22169: Or at least an instantly familiar one.

dwrighsr: His time line is given as 7, code named 'Fairacre'

AGplusone: If the various universes (EE Smith's lensmen) are the chairs in the Circle, which one does Beaux come from ??

BPRAL22169: And he switches sides at the end of CAT -- appears on the assault force that kills.

BPRAL22169: So who is the "Fairacre" who landed first on the Moon?

BPRAL22169: Heinlein always played fair.

dwrighsr: At the meeting with Ames, he gets 'penciled out' and disappears.

Pixelmeow: Okay, big question for me, does anyone have these timelines straight? Do we ever know who all these people are, such as Fairacre?

n1yqh a has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I'm positive there's a clue there -- but I have no way of unraveling it.

Major oz: nope

Pixelmeow: Bye, mike...

TAWN3: Timelines are listed in ARC I noticed

TAWN3: Bye Mike

jleebeane has left the room.

AGplusone: Fairacre could be a translation of something else

BPRAL22169: Someone was making a list of the various timelines in NOTB . . .

Pixelmeow: But do we ever read in any story more about who the people are in other timelines?

BPRAL22169: "Fair" in French is "beau"

geeairmoe2: I was wondering if some of those First on the Moon Timeline identifiers are from works of other authors.

Prnzofthvs: fairacre - unbiased farmland?

Pixelmeow: I was too.

TAWN3: Bill, so it's "hey Fairiful" ?

BPRAL22169: Well, we've read 6 novels about Kim Kinnison -- and one about Her Wisdom Star of the 20 universes

geeairmoe2: A person who is fair can be said to be wise -- wiseacre.

TAWN3: or Fairtiful

TAWN3: be careful not to drop the i

Pixelmeow: Who is Kim Kinnison?

Lucylou98: The lensman?

Major oz: In Glory Road, Our Hero stickes the foot of the giant into its mouth...further and further, until he disappears. I see the STORY LINE in that part of Sail (the circle, the time corps, etc) as being the same sort of construct.

TAWN3: Sam's sister

Prnzofthvs: Sam's brother?

Pixelmeow: Haven't read any Lensman, and don't remember Sam having a sister...

Pixelmeow: or brother, for that matter...

TAWN3: God it was a joke!

Pixelmeow: ?

Prnzofthvs: she was in the trunk when he crashed the car

TAWN3: Sam Kinnison, big fat comedian

Prnzofthvs: <--ducking and covering

TAWN3: :-)

Pixelmeow: I was thinking of Sam, in Puppet, dummies!!!

Major oz: .....don't forget obnoxious....

TAWN3: :-)

Pixelmeow: :-P

AGplusone: Didnt have red hair and green eyes, so he wasn't related ;-)

Prnzofthvs: not my fault you have to be on topic all the time, your majesty!

TAWN3: :-)

BPRAL22169: I was going to say that the Circle of Ouroboros seems to be the Time Patrol in "All you Zombies."

Pixelmeow: Bad minion, BAD!

Prnzofthvs: and don't forget absolutely hilarious!

TAWN3: Ouroboros, I was trying to think of that name

Pixelmeow: I loved Sam K...

Major oz: ....the eye of the beholder.....

Prnzofthvs: His advise to the starving Ethiopians is a classic. That is, if you're not overly PC

TAWN3: Or you boar us?

Prnzofthvs: advice, I mean

AGplusone: and you'd love Kimball Kinnison we you read him, he looks like your photo, m'dear!

Pixelmeow: Move to where theres more food?

AGplusone: when

TAWN3: ouroboros

Lucylou98: got out of the desert?

Pnther5o5 has left the room.

Major oz: send LUGGAGE !!!!!!!!!

Prnzofthvs: yep, give 'em luggage and u-hauls

Pixelmeow: Who was it who said to move out of the desert, fergossakes?

Major oz: .....yes, but anyone who is loud loses my attention, such that I cannot stick around long enough to see if they are worth while.

Prnzofthvs: Kinnison

BPRAL22169: Sinai Peninsula: year 41

AGplusone: [I gotta eat, all, bye David ... have fun with log :-D]

Prnzofthvs: by

Pixelmeow: Bye, david

Dehede011: bye

Major oz: night, Zim

geeairmoe2: so long.

Lucylou98: Bye, AgZim

TAWN3: isn't Ouroboros like the mythical (name ? ) bird, which flys in ever decreasing circles at an ever increasing rate until it disappears up it's backside with a metallic clink? My fathre used to tell about that one.

TAWN3: Bye David!

AGplusone: ::::: waving :::: try to give me a couple days lead time Steve

Prnzofthvs: I have to go sleep; busy day tomorrow, have to practice being retired.

Pixelmeow: Okay, bye Steve...

BPRAL22169: No. It's the World Snake.

Prnzofthvs: David, send me your phone #

TAWN3: Yes, that was Kinnison,

TAWN3: I agreed with him, tasteless as it was

BPRAL22169: Steve, if he has left, ask me -- i've got Dave's phone no.

Major oz: It's boring, Prz, unless you make it interesting yourself. I went to Peace Corps at 55. Had a blast.

AGplusone has left the room.

TAWN3: Yes, Bill, I know that. I was making another (failed) attempt at humor.

TAWN3: But it IS the same concept as the Giant.....

dwrighsr: Did Cabell mention Ouroboros? I seem to recall that Piper talked a lot about Cabell and he had a ship named Ouroboros.

BPRAL22169: I was trying to remember that bird -- but the only name I could think of was the Fabulous Foo Bird.

Pixelmeow: Phoenix?

Pixelmeow: That's the one of rebirth in flames, tho.

BPRAL22169: I don't remember running across is in Cabell - but Cabell used mthologies wholesale. He used the giant economy size assortment of mythologies.

TAWN3: No, not Phoenix

Major oz: Is that the one, Bill, that causes the explorer to jump in the river and.........etc.

Prnzofthvs has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Oz, I don't follow the question.

dwrighsr: Right, 'when the foo s---s wear it'

TAWN3: There is a name for it, and it is going to bother me all night since I knew it so well as a youth.

BPRAL22169: It's an engineer's gag.

Major oz: Fab foo bird strafes the explorer, causing him to jump in the river, where the crocks eat him, resulting in the motto.....as dw says.

Major oz: ....a play on "If the shoe fits, wear it"

BPRAL22169: Ah -- there are a couple of pun jokes based on that, but the only version I've run across with the full name is just one that flies backward so it cannot see where it is going but likes the view of where it has been.

Major oz: Ogden Nash ?

TAWN3: :-)

BPRAL22169: I don't think so -- that doesn't sound like quite his thing.

TAWN3: There is a name for the one which fly's up it's own arse

BPRAL22169: you know who would know -- Poul Anderson.

Major oz: In Pohnpei, there is a hill called Chickenshit Mountain, as the local mythology has it made of one humongous shot of guano by a chicken, to lighten his weight, on a mission to warn a cheif of an imending attack.

TAWN3: Bill, have you talked to him since our chat?

Major oz: ....prompting the old admonition about having a glass stomach installed.....

BPRAL22169: No, I haven't.

BPRAL22169: But people who live in glass stomachs shouldn't throw -- what?

dwrighsr: The way I heard it was 'People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones'

Major oz: I think I must leave this haven of punchiness for bed.

TAWN3: Pixel, what's your addy?

Major oz: Next time is the next three, yes?

dwrighsr: We are all getting giddy. I believe

Major oz: bye

Major oz has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I think we are all getting punchy.

TAWN3: Giddy is good!

BPRAL22169: Well -- giddy-up, then.

Lucylou98: Economics has fried my brain totally.

BPRAL22169: And don't you feel privileged? Hmmm?

Dehede011: Okay, this little Indian is headed off line. Nice talking to you.

BPRAL22169: It has that effect on a lot of people.

dwrighsr: See ya

TAWN3: bye Dehe!

Dehede011 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Reminds me: I saw Jane Jacobs on TV this past week -- in her mid nineties and talking more sense than any 10 people 1/10 her age.

TAWN3: who is Janer Jacobs?

TAWN3: Our Jane?

Lucylou98: Bill, this class is going to kick my butt.

BPRAL22169: If you are in Toronto she can be your jane -- so it's Jane's Jane.

Pixelmeow: Our jane is Jane Davitt.

BPRAL22169: Cities and the Wealth of Nations put her on the map in the early 80's.

BPRAL22169: What do they have you studying, Lisa?

Lucylou98: Scarcity, economic models..all kinds of stuuf that i've never heard of......

Pixelmeow: Yes, indeed!

BPRAL22169: Sounds like the basic stuff.

BPRAL22169: At that level it's all plane geometry and algebra. you'll get through it with no problem.

Lucylou98: the models are simple like slope and all that. it's the teacher....

BPRAL22169: Ah, well, against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.

TAWN3: Bill, Wealth of Nations is Adam Smith. Who is a Jane in regards to this?

Pixelmeow: Oh, you guys are talking math, BAD!

Pixelmeow: I've had quite enough of that, thanks...

Lucylou98: I did an essay on Adam Smith for Econ.

BPRAL22169: Cities and the Wealth of Nations takes the position that nation-states are granfaloons as far as economic wealth production is concerned and that the largest unit of wealth production in an economy is the city.

TAWN3: oh

BPRAL22169: She's got a new book out just now. Very hard-headed sense. She's been doing urban planning consulting for Toronto for the last 20 years or so.

Lucylou98: the consumers

TAWN3: ok, so what about MNC?

BPRAL22169: The mechanism she proposed was import replacement -- when the locals start making things they used to have to import, the local economy stops draining assets out of the city.

TAWN3: multi national corps

BPRAL22169: A multi-national is like a nation-state in that regard: it can only move around wealth produced somewhere else.

TAWN3: we tried that, it was called the Estate or Manor system

TAWN3: ok

BPRAL22169: The idea is, macro-economics is a completely phony economic idea.

Pixelmeow: Okay, guys, time for night-night for me and my Sweetie... If you would like to see more recent pics of her, go to hometown.aol.com/pixelmeow/index.htm

Pixelmeow: I'm calling it a night.

BPRAL22169: Ciao and miao

dwrighsr: Good night lady

Pixelmeow: Meow to you, too. :-)

Lucylou98: Night Pixel!

TAWN3: meow meow meow meow

Pixelmeow: Night!

TAWN3: that's from a commercial I saw. :-)

Pixelmeow has left the room.

TAWN3: Bye Pixel!

BPRAL22169: Well, all, shall we call it a night?

Lucylou98: sure tawn:-)

Lucylou98: yep i'm going to study

TAWN3: ?

TAWN3: Sure what Lisa?

Lucylou98: see you people around the place:-)

TAWN3: I mean, sure, i agree.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

TAWN3: i guess

Lucylou98: lol ngiht Tawn

Lucylou98 has left the room.

TAWN3: LOL

TAWN3: Bye all

dwrighsr: So long

TAWN3 has left the room.

geeairmoe2: I go check the hockey game and everyone leaves.

geeairmoe2: See ya whenever.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

Log officially closed at 12:38 A.M. Friday June 9

Final End of Discussion Log

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