Robert Heinlein, Virginia Heinlein, Snowy Heinlein Pay Forward the legacy of Robert A. Heinlein --Contribute to The Heinlein Society today! Join the Heinlein Society in paying forward the legacy of Robert A. Heinlein and Virginia Heinlein. Return Home to the Heinlein Society Heinlein Society Recent Updates Go To Centennial Reader
                       

Home

Robert Heinlein

Ginny Heinlein

Directors

RAH And Me

Join Us

Pay Annual Dues

News

Education

Libraries

Scholastic/Academic

Conventions

Blood Drives

Fundraising

Pirates' Booty

на русском

Links

Contact Us

Membership

Heinlein Prize

Readers Group

Newsletters

Forum

Search

Updates

Concordance

Writing Contest

 

Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

05-25-2000

'The Long Watch' and 'Gentlemen, Be Seated'

Click Here to Return to Index

Return to Index

Go to Beginning of Discussion Log

Here begin the AFH Postings


From: BPRAL22169

Topic: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 1 of 8

Sent: 21 May 2000 20:48:01 GMT

"From the Sublime . . . . . . to the Ridiculous"

This Thursday Evening the HRG will be discussing "The Long Watch" and "Gentlemen, Be Seated"

Both stories were written during Heinlein's "slicks" period of the late 1940's and at least nominally fit into the Future History; "The Long Watch," a story about one of the heroes of his Space Patrol, was published in American Legion Magazine in December 1959, and "Gentlemen, Be Seated," was published in Argosy in May1948. Both were collected into THE GREEN HILLS OF EARTH and THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW.

2 Egoboo Bucks to anyone who knows why I headed this post (not the subject line, but the top of this page) as I did!

As with the last few meetings, this chat will be held on AIM on Thursday evening 6:00 p.m. PDT; 9:00 p.m. EDT and will be followed by a second chat with a different group of people the following Saturday (May 27) at 2:00 p.m. PST, 5:00 p.m. EDT. If you have not already downloaded the AIM software and installed it, please do so a few days before the chat and e-mail your handle to the group leader, Dave Silver, at AGPlusOne@aol.com, so he can invite you into the chatroom. Dave is out of town until at least Wednesday; if he gets back in time to host the chat, he will do so himself. Dave maintains a complete list of people. If Dave is not able to host the chat, I will open up a room for it.

Since I have only a few people on my own buddy list, I would ask that you IM me once you log into AIM so I can invite you.

Look forward to seeing you Thursday or Saturday! Bill

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 2 of 8 (In response to BPRAL22169)

Sent: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:17:18 -0400

BPRAL22169 wrote:

"From the Sublime . . . . . . to the Ridiculous"

2 Egoboo Bucks to anyone who knows why I headed this post (not the subject line, but the top of this page) as I did!

Because both stories contain acts of heroism and personal sacrifice but one is ultimately fatal to the hero whereas the other merely results in two rather painful injuries to the bottom? :-) Similar plots in a way but one deals with extremes of treachery and heroism, the other is more mundane and there is no enemy but nature and the inherent dangers of an airless world. Let's put it this way, I cry at one, not at the other :-)

Jane

From: Gordon G. Sollars

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 3 of 8 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:30:28 -0400

In article <3928525E.D25607ED@netcom.ca>, ddavitt writes... ....

Because both stories contain acts of heroism and personal sacrifice but one is ultimately fatal to the hero whereas the other merely results in two rather painful injuries to the bottom? :-)

This was my answer, too. Darn it, Jane, a person has to live on-line to beat you to the punch!

-- Gordon Sollars

gsollars@pobox.com

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 4 of 8 (In response to Gordon G. Sollars)

Sent: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:42:03 -0400

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

In article <3928525E.D25607ED@netcom.ca>, ddavitt writes... ... Because both stories contain acts of heroism and personal sacrifice but one is ultimately fatal to the hero whereas the other merely results in two rather painful injuries to the bottom? :-)

This was my answer, too. Darn it, Jane, a person has to live on-line to beat you to the punch!.....

Are you saying I have no life Gordon? :-) Just a coincidence that I logged on right after Bill's post. I've upgraded AIM to version 4.0 where you can talk ( out loud that is) and I'm trying to get it to work with someone without actually buying a microphone. Limited success at the moment.....we have a built in speakerphone but I'm not sure it's sufficient.

It won't be any good for the Heinlein chats now as it's just a one on one deal at the moment but I imagine eventually our chats may be verbal rather than written. Which will be fun....I think...

Jane

From: Jani

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 5 of 8 (In response to BPRAL22169)

Sent: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:22:25 +0100

BPRAL22169 wrote in message news:20000521164802.17097.00000661@ng-bg1.aol.com...

"From the Sublime . . . . . . to the Ridiculous"

This Thursday Evening the HRG will be discussing "The Long Watch" and "Gentlemen, Be Seated"

2 Egoboo Bucks to anyone who knows why I headed this post (not the subject line, but the top of this page) as I did!

It is prostatological (if that wasn't a word before, it is now).

Jani (whistling :)

From: BPRAL22169

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 6 of 8

Sent: 23 May 2000 02:28:22 GMT

AHA! as I thought -- the "Sublime" part of the discussion has cloned off its own thread. See "TheLong Watch and emotion" thread.

How about the ridiculous; isn't "Gentlemen Be Seated" a perfect men's magazine slightly blue story circa 1949?

Bill

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 7 of 8 (In response to BPRAL22169)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:51:47 -0400

BPRAL22169 wrote:

message by BPRAL22169

I don't have enough knowledge of that to comment :-)

I read somewhere ( Slusser? Could be) that this was an unusual story in that the visitor to the Moon proves he has the "right stuff" but still wants to go back home to Des Moines. What does this show? That one can be a hero but not necessarily a spaceman or a colonist? It contrasts nicely with the next story along, "The Black Pits Of Luna" where the young boy proves himself by rescuing his tiresome brother and says he _will_ be back.

Once again, there is a nickname; Fatso. This perhaps wasn't a big deal when the story was written but I can't help wondering why such names are given by Heinlein to his characters. The person in question is the bravest and most resourceful person in the story; he knows what has to be done; block on the leak, he recognises that the falling temperature will kill them before they run out of air and he comes up with a plan to save them even though it means a lot of pain and possible death for him. He never complains and doesn't give in. That the story is played for laughs because injuries to the bottom are funny in a very basic way is a shame in some ways.

Both the stories take place on the Moon but one involves the possible fate of millions, the other is the attempt of three men to save themselves; they are the only people at risk. Yet willingness to die for others is as heroic no matter how many lives are at risk; "men are not potatoes". Konski was willing to die in an attempt to save two lives. Johnny did it to save his family from growing up in a dictatorship and to save the towns who would have been used as an example of the power of the Patrol.

Who was the most heroic? Johnny because he deliberately put himself at risk whereas Konski, Knowles and Arnold were in an emergency situation and had no choice but to save themselves? Yet Johnny knew that his chances of bluffing Towers for long were slight; he would have been executed quite soon, especially as the senior bomb officer was on their side ( or was he? Hmm....). Knowing this, his actions were logical as well as heroic. I don't know. But there's no denying that Heinlein was using one plot for two stories; on the grand scale it produces tears, on the small scale, a smile. Strange that. It's almost the reverse of reality; thousands dying in a famine or earthquake doesn't produce as much emotion ( or airtime) as a score of equally innocent victims in a school shooting. It's as if the emotions go into overload when thousands of deaths are involved.

Jane

From: Major oz

Topic: Re: (Formerly AOL) Heinlein Readers Group Forthcoming Chat - 5/25/00

Message: 8 of 8 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: 24 May 2000 05:00:08 GMT

It's almost the reverse of reality; thousands dying in a famine or earthquake doesn't produce as much emotion ( or airtime) as a score of equally innocent victims in a school shooting. It's as if the emotions go into overload when thousands of deaths are involved.

Jane

In the former, there is no one to blame or political agenda to foster -- i.e. nothing for TV talking heads to wring their hands over.

cheers (anyway)

oz

[Editor's note: The original thread spawned this one]

Topic: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 1 of 31

Sent: 22 May 2000 19:19:36 GMT

Okay, just refreshed my knowledge of "The Long Watch", and "Gentlemen, Be Seated". I read them aloud to my daughter, amidst much burbling and raptor noises. The surprising thing is that I found myself very moved by TLW. I actually 'felt' for Dahlquist. And, in passing, I realized that this was a character that was built and used in less than 20 pages. Yet, I wiped a sentimental tear away. It really brought home just how moving Heinlein could write. Any thoughts from others out there on times when Heinlein really showed you an emotion within yourself?

Filly "A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be."

--Abraham Maslow

From: WillReich

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 2 of 31 (In response to Merfilly8)

Sent: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:03:38 -0700

I cried when I read "the Long Watch." I STILL cry when I read it. I laugh AND cry when I read "the Man Who Travelled in Elephants" I think that the short stories are somewhat more likely to bring out the real BURST of emotion. There are many places in the novels, also, the parting from the captain of the Sisu in CotG, meeting his father on the dock in SsT, and so on. However, the short stories are more emotionally concentrated. -- Bill Reich

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 3 of 31 (In response to Merfilly8)

Sent: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:19:38 -0400

Merfilly8 wrote:

Any thoughts from others out there on times when Heinlein really showed you an emotion within yourself?

Always at that story and Green Hills. And the end of Space Family Stone. Sometimes the end of Tunnel. Yet some people say Heinlein didn't do good endings...beats me why.

Jane

From: William J. Leary Jr.

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 4 of 31 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 02:36:07 GMT

"ddavitt" wrote in message news:3929DCAA.6D283136@netcom.ca...

Merfilly8 wrote:

Any thoughts from others out there on times when Heinlein really showed you an emotion within yourself?

Always at that story and Green Hills. And the end of Space Family Stone. Sometimes the end of Tunnel. Yet some people say Heinlein didn't do good endings...beats me why.

The "scene" that most gets me is Dora's death in "Time Enough for Love."

Another one is Harriman's death in "Requium."

- Bill

From: TAWN3

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 5 of 31 (In response to William J. Leary Jr.)

Sent: 23 May 2000 04:47:54 GMT

Free Men, without a doubt. Self sacrifgice always breaks me up. Patriotism, honor, that type of stuff.

the end of Tunnel.

One of my favorite stories, but doesn't choke me up.

From: Prnzofthvs

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 6 of 31 (In response to TAWN3)

Sent: 23 May 2000 05:35:15 GMT

tawn mentioned:

Free Men, without a doubt. Self sacrifgice always breaks me up. Patriotism, honor, that type of stuff.

Thank you! I was trying to think of the name of this one, and couldn't recall. Great read!

Steve

"You got to stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything." Aaron Tippin

From: Ward Griffiths

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 7 of 31 (In response to Merfilly8)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:45:20 GMT

Merfilly8 wrote:

Okay, just refreshed my knowledge of "The Long Watch", and "Gentlemen, Be Seated". I read them aloud to my daughter, amidst much burbling and raptor noises. The surprising thing is that I found myself very moved by TLW. I actually 'felt' for Dahlquist. And, in passing, I realized that this was a character that was built and used in less than 20 pages. Yet, I wiped a sentimental tear away. It really brought home just how moving Heinlein could write. Any thoughts from others out there on times when Heinlein really showed you an emotion within yourself?

Much stronger than "The Long Watch" are "The Man Who Travelled in Elephants" (which I have never finished with unblurred vision) and the end of "The Tale of the Adopted Daughter". --

Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/

"No matter how deep you've buried it, never underestimate the ability of shit to find a fan" F. Paul Wilson, _Legacies_

From: YankeeDoodleDandy

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 8 of 31 (In response to Merfilly8)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:11:12 GMT

On 22 May 2000 19:19:36 GMT merfilly8@aol.com (Merfilly8) wrote:

Okay, just refreshed my knowledge of "The Long Watch", and "Gentlemen, Be Seated". I read them aloud to my daughter, amidst much burbling and raptor noises. The surprising thing is that I found myself very moved by TLW. I actually 'felt' for Dahlquist. And, in passing, I realized that this was a character that was built and used in less than 20 pages. Yet, I wiped a sentimental tear away. It really brought home just how moving Heinlein could write.

Typical high tragedy. A lost form of art. RAH was very good at it.

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 9 of 31 (In response to YankeeDoodleDandy)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:36:40 -0400

I can pinpoint the moment my eyes mist over;

" Four days it took the little ship and her escort to reach Earth. Four days while all of Earth's people awaited her arrival. For ninety-eight hours all commercial programmes were off television; instead there was an endless dirge - " I always have a moment of thinking though, that I can conceive of _no_ situation nowadays when this would happen. No TV? Anathema. Four days devoted to news coverage of the event; maybe. British TV on the day Diana died was almost solid reporting of the event I believe, but a total blackout like this would just not happen. Sad really.

It's also instructive to look at Space Cadet. The Long Watch was printed in December 1949. SC was published in 1948. It has Dahlquist as one of the four heroes of the Patrol but Matt and Tex don't seem all that sure of who he is. They come across his memorial at the testing centre and see,

"a young man dressed in an old fashioned pressure suit. His features could be seen clearly through his helmet, big mouth, merry eyes, and thick, sandy hair cut in the style of the previous century. Under the picture was a line of lettering: Lieutenant Ezra Dahlquist , Who Helped Create the Tradition of the Patrol - 1969 -1996."

There follows a brief description of the events of The Long Watch which is then given another slant by dear old Stinky; "...a lot of emotional propaganda.......They don't tell you he disobeyed orders of his superior officer - if things had fallen the other way, he'd be called a traitor. Besides that, they don't mention that it was sheer clumsiness that got him burned. Do you expect me to think he was a superman?"

Ooh, it's so nice to think what's going to happen to that little jerk!

We get a little hint of what happened to Rivera; sent to negotiate in his own city, gives the orders for it to be bombed even though he is still there, but we never find out about Wheeler and Martin. Does anyone know if Heinlein planned to tell their stories? Or would they have been too repetitive?

I was surprised that SC came before Long Watch; bit like Requiem and MWSTM. It also makes me wonder how the Patrol did come about; by the time of SC it is almost in the same position of power as Colonel Towers wanted, although the share of responsibility is different. I would have thought that after the events of The Long Watch it would have been disbanded.

Jane

From: Prnzofthvs

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 10 of 31 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: 23 May 2000 15:20:07 GMT

Jane wrote:

No TV? Anathema. Four days devoted to news coverage of the event; maybe. British TV on the day Diana died was almost solid reporting of the event I believe, but a total blackout like this would just not happen. Sad really.

I don't know about worldwide situations, but I was stationed in Athens, Greece, when Greek Orthodox Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus died. I don't remember the exact duration of the mourning period, but for several days, even the US forces radio station on base played nothing but solemn, dirge-like music, 24 hours a day. I believe this lasted from the time his death was reported, until the end of the day of the funeral. The TV station(s) (govt-run) did the same.

Steve "You got to stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything." Aaron Tippin

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 11 of 31 (In response to Prnzofthvs)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:15:56 -0400

Prnzofthvs wrote:

I don't know about worldwide situations, but I was stationed in Athens, Greece, when Greek Orthodox Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus died. I don't remember the exact duration of the mourning period, but for several days, even the US forces radio station on base played nothing but solemn, dirge-like music, 24 hours a day. I believe this lasted from the time his death was reported, until the end of the day of the funeral. The TV station(s) (govt-run) did the same.

That's interesting. What year was that? I have to say though, that I still have trouble imagining the US doing something similar in today's world.

Jane

From: Prnzofthvs

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 12 of 31 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: 23 May 2000 17:17:07 GMT

.....That's interesting. What year was that? I have to say though, that I still have trouble imagining the US doing something similar in today's world. Jane.....

This was in 1977. BTW, the American radio station really had no choice. Our base was officially a Greek Air Base, and we had to follow their lead in such things. I don't know if they would have reacted in the same way, given complete autonomy. I believe it would have been the same, though, as we were trying very hard to keep them in our camp. The bases there were very important to our operations in the Mediterranean area.

Steve "You got to stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything." Aaron Tippin

From: Jerry Brown

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 13 of 31 (In response to William J. Leary Jr.)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:35:11 +0100H

On Tue, 23 May 2000 02:36:07 GMT, "William J. Leary Jr." wrote:

"ddavitt" wrote in message news:3929DCAA.6D283136@netcom.ca...

Merfilly8 wrote:

Any thoughts from others out there on times when Heinlein really >showed you an emotion within yourself?

Always at that story and Green Hills. And the end of Space Family Stone. >Sometimes the end of Tunnel. Yet some people say Heinlein didn't do good >endings...beats me why.

The "scene" that most gets me is Dora's death in "Time Enough for Love." Another one is Harriman's death in "Requium."

The paragraph on the last page of Door Into Summer, that mentions that Pete will be taking the Very Long Sleep all too soon.

Jerry Brown

"I need meat; I'm not a sociologist!"

Professor John Thomas Furie, Lowlands University

From: Nollaig MacKenzie

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 14 of 31 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:09:57 GMT

On Tue, 23 May 2000 10:36:40 -0400, the estimable

ddavitt wrote:

....I can pinpoint the moment my eyes mist over; " Four days it took the little ship and her escort to reach Earth. Four days while all of Earth's people awaited her arrival. For ninety-eight hours all commercial programmes were off television; instead there was an endless dirge - " .....

I always have a moment of thinking though, that I can conceive of _no_ situation nowadays when this would happen. No TV? Anathema. Four days devoted to news coverage of the event; maybe. British TV on the day Diana died was almost solid reporting of the event I believe, but a total blackout like this would just not happen. Sad really.

I was in the States in November '63, and - as I remember it - for several days, whenever I went by a TV set it was showing the Kennedy story. Struck me as weird......

[...]

I was surprised that SC came before Long Watch; bit like Requiem and MWSTM. It also makes me wonder how the Patrol did come about; by the time of SC it is almost in the same position of power as Colonel Towers wanted, although the share of responsibility is different. I would have thought that after the events of The Long Watch it would have been disbanded.

Perhaps the attempted coup played a role something like the strike mentioned in "The Roads Must Roll": afterwards the training/education of the officers got taken *very* seriously. One likes to think that Towers would never have made it through the Academy in Matt's day...... ?

Cheers, N. --

Nollaig MacKenzie :: rahfan@amhuinnsuidhe.cx ::

http://www.amhuinnsuidhe.cx/rahfan/

From: Bryan R. Stahl

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 15 of 31 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:28:27 +0300

"ddavitt" wrote in message news:392AAEBB.364155FF@netcom.ca...

Prnzofthvs wrote:

....I don't know about worldwide situations, but I was stationed in Athens, Greece, when Greek Orthodox Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus died. I don't remember the exact duration of the mourning period, but for several days, even the US forces radio station on base played nothing but solemn, dirge-like music, 24 hours a day. I believe this lasted from the time his death was reported, until the end of the day of the funeral. The TV station(s) (govt-run) did the same. That's interesting. What year was that? I have to say though, that I still have trouble imagining the US doing something similar in today's world....

Israel did pretty much the same thing after Rabin's assassination, though I was locked in at work through most of it.

I also discovered that wearing a tux to work* doesn't make it more glamorous. Especially when you've worn it for 26 hours straight.

*Word of Rabin's assassination reached the Consulate during the Marine Corps Birthday Ball. I went straight from there to work, and finally got to go home for a few hours the next night.

-- Bryan

"And what if we picked the wrong religion? Every week, we're just making God madder and madder!"

-- Homer Simpson, ``Homer the Heretic''

From: WolfFur

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 16 of 31 (In response to Merfilly8)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:38:11 -0700

One teary page for me is in Starman Jones, when Jones learns his older friend (whose name escapes me) died protecting the ship. Another such page is in Farnham's Freehold when the baby dies, and yet another is in Tunnel when Cowper is killed.

From: Prnzofthvs

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 17 of 31 (In response to Jerry Brown)

Sent: 23 May 2000 22:58:29 GMT

Jerry Brown

"I need meat; I'm not a sociologist!"

Professor John Thomas Furie, Lowlands University

You'll appreciate a bumper sticker I saw the other day: "If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?"

Steve "You got to stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything." Aaron Tippin

From: Prnzofthvs

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 18 of 31 (In response to Nollaig MacKenzie)

Sent: 23 May 2000 23:10:06 GMT

Nollaig wrote:

...I was in the States in November '63, and - as I remember it - for several days, whenever I went by a TV set it was showing the Kennedy story. Struck me as weird......

Now that brings up an interesting topic for a thread: Where were you and what were you doing when JFK was shot? It is one of the things I am very clear about from my youth. I remember it so well, even though most days I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch the day before.

I was at Lackland AFB, TX, in boot camp. We got the word while at a football game. Suddenly all these planes were flying over, headed southeast - presumably to prevent Castro and the Soviets from trying anything. That evening, my Drill Sergeant, a very large, very mean, very gruff fellow, called us all in to the training room and talked with us about how it felt.I still get choked up when I remember how this man who was the epitome of strength to me described breaking down and weeping upon hearing the news.

Steve "You got to stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything." Aaron Tippin

From: Ogden Johnson III

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 19 of 31 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:00:30 -0400

On Tue, 23 May 2000 10:36:40 -0400, ddavitt wrote:

....I can pinpoint the moment my eyes mist over; " Four days it took the little ship and her escort to reach Earth. Four days while all of Earth's people awaited her arrival. For ninety-eight hours all commercial programmes were off television; instead there was an endless dirge - " I always have a moment of thinking though, that I can conceive of _no_ situation nowadays when this would happen. No TV? Anathema. Four days devoted to news coverage of the event; maybe. British TV on the day Diana died was almost solid reporting of the event I believe, but a total blackout like this would just not happen. Sad really.....

Not that long ago, at least as I see it, in the pre-CNN era when there were only 3 networks, TV devoted over 4 days straight to coverage of the JFK assassination, the aftermath, his lying in state, and the funeral.

I suspect that with the proliferation of 'second tier' broadcast networks [Fox, UPN, WB, PAX] and the cable melange, you are correct that today it wouldn't happen. However, I had a 'here we go again' twinge at the first reports of Reagan being shot. I have a gut feeling that then with Reagan, and even now, the 'big' 3 broadcast networks would go the same route with a Presidential assassination as they did with JFK.

OJ III

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 20 of 31 (In response to Ogden Johnson III)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:00:55 -0400

Ogden Johnson III wrote:

On Tue, 23 May 2000 10:36:40 -0400, ddavitt wrote:

....I always have a moment of thinking though, that I can conceive of _no_ situation nowadays when this would happen. No TV? Anathema. Four days devoted to news coverage of the event; maybe. British TV on the day Diana died was almost solid reporting of the event I believe, but a total blackout like this would just not happen. Sad really.....

Not that long ago, at least as I see it, in the pre-CNN era when there were only 3 networks, TV devoted over 4 days straight to coverage of the JFK assassination, the aftermath, his lying in state, and the funeral.

Full coverage to the exclusion of all other programmes, yes but no pictures, just dirges? Not going to happen. IMO. The public has grown too addicted to instant on the spot reporting. It would want pictures of the spaceship, videos of Dahlquist as a child, interviews with Edith, the whole privacy invading nine yards. Dignified musical tribute? I doubt it. 1949 was a different time altogether. Heinlein would have had no conception of the grip TV would come to have on society at that time.

Jane

From: Jon Patton Ogden II

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 21 of 31 (In response to WolfFur)

Sent: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:28:55 -0400

On Tue, 23 May 2000 17:38:11 -0700, "WolfFur" told us all:

message by "WolfFur"

For me, its the last pages of TMIAHM. Mannie's sense of loss mirrors my own.

From: Andrew Foley

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 22 of 31 (In response to Prnzofthvs)

Sent: Wed, 24 May 2000 06:58:27 +0100

Prnzofthvs wrote in message <20000523112007.05834.00000685@ng-cv1.aol.com>...

Jane wrote:

....No TV? Anathema. Four days devoted to news coverage of the event; maybe. British TV on the day Diana died was almost solid reporting of the event I believe, but a total blackout like this would just not happen. Sad really.....

I don't know about worldwide situations, but I was stationed in Athens, Greece, when Greek Orthodox Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus died. I don't remember the exact duration of the mourning period, but for several days, even the US forces radio station on base played nothing but solemn, dirge-like music, 24 hours a day. I believe this lasted from the time his death was reported, until the end of the day of the funeral. The TV station(s) (govt-run) did the same.

The BBC have been reconsidering their response to the death of the Queen Mother (when that happens) in the light of the public's negative opinions of their programming on the day of the death of the Princess of Wales. For years they'd been planning sombre programming and funereal music.

It's something they haven't had to face in reality for many years. I recall my late father telling me of when he was hospital in 1952 having his appendix removed. After the operation he was looking forward to listening to "Dick Barton, Special Agent" on the radio, but George VI died, and all the usual programming was replaced by solemn music.

From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 23 of 31 (In response to WolfFur)

Sent: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:41:06 +1000

WolfFur wrote:

message by "WolfFur"

Speaking of Tunnel, one of my moments I find hard to categorize is when I think back on the beach of bones. When Rod and Roy arrive here, this is as far as they can go on their expedition. The sea with no tides stretches away in the distance, the smell of salt is strong. I tend to think of the unimaginable loneliness of being so far away from your own kind, on an alien planet, with the evidence of an "elephants burial ground" laying all around you. It gives me shivers, and I am at the same time repelled by and drawn to the images the text evokes. A different emotion to what has been discussed so far, but one I dwell on none the less.

Sean (who will be away for a few days) gaeltach@fan.net.au

***************

..... and now for something completely different:

No I tome - emotion. ***************

From: Helen & Bob

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 24 of 31 (In response to Prnzofthvs)

Sent: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:16:33 -0700

Prnzofthvs wrote:

Nollaig wrote:

....I was in the States in November '63, and - as I remember it - for several days, whenever I went by a TV set it was showing the Kennedy story. Struck me as weird......

Now that brings up an interesting topic for a thread: Where were you and what were you doing when JFK was shot? It is one of the things I am very clear about from my youth. I remember it so well, even though most days I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch the day before.

I was at Cal State Long Beach, in the cafeteria, when the news came. There were at least 1,000 students there, and generally the place was nothing but a ROAR at all times. I had left active duty Army in 1/61, and in 1/63 had left the active Reserve. I was still in the inactive reserve. When the news came, the place became very, very still, as people sat and listened to radios. I sat there in terror, knowing that if WW3 was going to start, it would be in the next half hour, and there was no place I could get to that was out of range of nukes. (Southern California was nothing but a huge target. I was only a few miles from a VERY large Naval base, a LARGE Marine airbase, etc, etc, and about 4 miles from Douglas Aircraft Co's main plant. We called So Calif Ground Zero). there was literally nothing but the assassination on TV for about 4 days. God, but it was a horrible time. I doubt that I would vote for John Kennedy today, but I did then, and he was "MY" president. Damn, it hurt then, and still hurts today. I think the world would have been a far different place had JFK not been killed. I would like to know, in my lifetime, who the hell did it.

Bob

From: jeanette wolf

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 26 of 31 (In response to Prnzofthvs)

Sent: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:25:04 -0700 (PDT)

I was in the eight grade math when the school principal announced on the intercom that the president had been shot while in a motorcade in Dallas. (I didn't know what a motorcade was--pictured some sort of amusement ride.) It wasn't until after lunch that they announced that he had died and school was dismissed. I had already heard he was dead on somebody's contraband transistor radio while in the girls' room. Remember high school kids crying and singing The Battle Hymn of the Republic on the school bus going home.

There was only news and funeral type stuff on TV until after Monday if that was the funeral day. I do remember "Abe Lincoln in Illinois" being shown at some point (weekend afternoon) but that was the only thing approaching entertainment. Oswald's being shot was also a topic--all this in black and white of course.

One station replayed the Nov. 22nd CBS? coverage a few years ago (25th anniversary probably). I watched and was surprised how short a time there was from the first reports to the coffin being unloaded in DC. At the time that day seemed endless.

Jeanette--still missing about half the posts.

From: Deric

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 27 of 31 (In response to Merfilly8)

Sent: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:44:46 GMT

Merfilly8 wrote:

....Okay, just refreshed my knowledge of "The Long Watch", Any thoughts from others out there on times when Heinlein really showed you an emotion within yourself?....

The one that always gets to me is the end of 'Gulf'. The telepathic marriage ceremony as they're trying to deactivate the bomb, ending with the memorial marker.

Deric --

'See the young man sitting in the old man's bar, waiting for his turn to die.'

From: Deric

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 28 of 31 (In response to jeanette wolf)

Sent: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:56:53 GMT

jeanette wolf wrote:

....I was in the eight grade math when the school principal announced on the intercom that the president had been shot while in a motorcade in Dallas.....

There was only news and funeral type stuff on TV until after Monday if that was the funeral day. At the time that day seemed endless.

I was in first grade during 11/63 and remember being sent home early about 1 or 2:30 EST. But the memory that sticks in my mind is that saturday 11/25, I was ticked off because every thing on TV was about the procession and funeral and I couldn't watch 'Mighty Mouse'. Goes to show you where a 6 year old's priorities are.

Deric --

'See the young man sitting in the old man's bar, waiting for his turn to die.'

From: Tian Harter

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 29 of 31 (In response to Deric)

Sent: 25 May 2000 20:00:51 GMT

Deric wrote:

...I was in first grade during 11/63 and remember being sent home early about 1 or 2:30 EST. But the memory that sticks in my mind is that Saturday 11/25, I was ticked off because every thing on TV was about the procession and funeral and I couldn't watch 'Mighty Mouse'. Goes to show you where a 6 year old's priorities are....

I know I was in Thailand at the time, but I don't really remember the event at all. I was five at the time. My first real memory of Kennedy's assassination was reading a collection of "what we were doing when Kennedy got shot" stories in Rolling Stone in the Walter Johnson High School Library.

I was there because I always skipped English class, and that was the best place to kill the hour. I skipped the class because they wouldn't let me move to another class, and I had no intention of putting up with the teacher. I had to make it up at summer school, but I didn't care. Mrs. Mulehouse just wasn't my type.

Tian Harter http://members.aol.com/tnharter Bay to Breakers#: 69854, Place: 23452, Time: 2:08:03 "California isn't like anywhere else." - Tom Petty.

From: AGplusone

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 30 of 31 (In response to Ward Griffiths)

Sent: 25 May 2000 22:36:22 GMT

Ward wrote:

...Much stronger than "The Long Watch" are "The Man Who Travelled in Elephants" (which I have never finished with unblurred vision) ....

I cannot disagree here, except the tears that blur my vision of of Joy which is another thing entirely.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

From: Libertarian Bill

Topic: Re: "The Long Watch" and emotion

Message: 31 of 31 (In response to Tian Harter)

Sent: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:04:20 -0500

I was about two months old when Kennedy was shot. Mom told me she was sitting in a rocking chair in our apartment above the dry cleaners, feeding me at the time and watching a soap opera, when the Walter Cronkeit broke in with the news.

Bill

Here Beginneth The Discussion Group Log

You have just entered room "AGplusone Chat19."

AGplusone: Hi, Dave

dwrighsr: Hi. There. David

n1yqh a has entered the room.

AGplusone: Evenin' Mike

n1yqh a: hi, guys

dwrighsr: I'm just going to be logging this evening. I'll pop in occassionally. Have fun.

AGplusone: If this gets boring, we can always join a chat on Britney Spears ...

AGplusone: We will, David ... nice job on the posting of logs.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

AGplusone: 'lo, Jane. How was dinner with mum?

ddavitt: Just got back half an hour ago; stuffed full!

ddavitt: We will be at a cottage up north on Sat so I won't be at the chat then.

AGplusone: I'd trade that feeling anytime. I'll eat about 9.45 tonight.

ddavitt: poor hungry david:-)

AGplusone: Funny thing, talking about being away. I was gone six days and figure it'll take me better part of a day to read the AFH posts I missed.

dwrighsr: I've edited the a.f.h. threads, so they'll be ready to add to this log.

ddavitt: It hasn't seemed that busy...

n1yqh a: I've cmpletely given up on trying to keep up... No time at work, and too tired when I get home usually..

ddavitt: Not much on topic stuff but it's improving

AGplusone: Amazing how much it has been ...

AGplusone: Interesting thread, to use a fav word, on Jack London ... now if they'd get back to the main topic once they define 'socialism' to their heart's content, I'd like to see what develops.

ddavitt: Yes, I was sure there was a ref to JL in Grumbles but I couldn't find it

n1yqh a: which stories were we theoretically going to be talking about tonight?

ddavitt: White fang?

ddavitt: Gentlemen be seated and Long Watch

n1yqh a: oh, good, two that I actually remember well... :-)

AGplusone: I've only gotten aboput a third of the way into the threads. Two sides of the same coin, heroism, is the way I look at the two stories, Mike.

ddavitt: That helps...:-)

ddavitt: As Bill puts it; sublime to ridiculous

ddavitt: One plot, two slants on it

AGplusone: Two of my favorites ... but I think Mr. Konski gets short-changed. That's a elitist viewpoint. Nothing ridiculous about Konski.

ddavitt: I hate him being called fatso

n1yqh a: The last time I read "The Long Watch" I had just taken a rad worker training class - I was shuddering crazily at the thought of intentionally fracturing exposed metallic plutonium... :-)

ddavitt: It's a scary meance because it's unseen

ddavitt: Menace

AGplusone: Lieutenants are supposed to be heroic ... 'fatso' is your basic common salt of the earth type.

ddavitt: I asked who was the most heroic? Or were they equal?

AGplusone: Scary thought ... plutonium.

ddavitt: Who is William Bennet btw David; just caught up on afh and the Elsie thread :-)

AGplusone: Fatso was just on overtime ... doing his job. No trumpets, no banners ... and managed to 'fool's mate' the imaginative reporter while at it.

ddavitt: Have you read many of them?

n1yqh a: I'd say that both were equally heroic - they thought that they could survive, and had they taken no action they couldn't, just that one died and the other didn't.

ddavitt: Yes; shades of hazel and Buster in a similar situation

AGplusone: Bennett is a conservative darling of the Republicans. Narates moralistic PBS stories for children.

ddavitt: Could Dalhlquist have survived?

ddavitt: Why is he Ezra in SC and Johhny in the story btw?

n1yqh a: He thought he could...

ddavitt: Girard Burke said he was "careless"...didn't seem that way to me

ddavitt: He tried safe options but realsied they were repairable so had to take the suicide route to ensure the bombs were wrecked

AGplusone: (Bennett's position: if we cannot eliminate the cabinet level Education department, then let's take it over and use it to indoctrinate proper values.)

n1yqh a: He was very suprised to see his dosimeter (flim badge) show the lethal range

ddavitt: He sounds awful...

ddavitt: Too busy to think of the implications maybe?

AGplusone: (I tried to make him sound awful. Republicans love him.)

ddavitt: both ( all) men did what they had to do but Johnny could have held off being a hero; Konski couldn't or he would have died at once. However this doesn't make him less of a hero. Or does it?

Lenjazz has entered the room.

ddavitt: Johnny could have played along, tried a different plan, tried to warn Earth, whatever. But he did the thing that would ensure no tyranny even though it involved the highest degree of risk.

AGplusone: I think Konski isn't particularly conscious of being a hero. He's just surviving a dangerous job.

ddavitt: Yes....but do you need to know you're being heroic for it to count?

AGplusone: Hi, Len ... taking about the difference in "heroism" in Konski in Gentlemen, Be Seated, and Dalquist in The Long Watch.

AGplusone: NO.

ddavitt: He could have refused the pain , made someone else sit down and they would all have died.

Lenjazz: Hi everyone...yes, I gathered...

ddavitt: He set some personal pain against certain death; no choice really but not everyone would have done it even so and _that_ makes him a hero for me

AGplusone: Not an option for him. The paymaster took up less oxygen, so the optimum solution was he gets the suit and tries to make it to the next section. Konski has the most blubber so he's the patch.

AGplusone: Very pragmatic the choice.

ddavitt: But lots of people would have hung back and dithered...

AGplusone: Konski's doing a job, not playing Horatio for the audience.

ddavitt: Heinlein applauds those who make instant decisions; Jock in Double Star throwing himself on the martian life wand

AGplusone: Dalquist does a job too, but he's self-conscious about it.

ddavitt: Lefty in Time For The Stars?

n1yqh a: Dahlquist didn't have a choice either - had he come out, they would have killed him (or at least imprisoned him and made him watch his country/world taken over)

ddavitt: But he didn't have to go in.....

n1yqh a: True...

ddavitt: Towers would have liked him on the team..he was safe in the interim

AGplusone: The writer-reporter reminds me of Rod in Tunnel being told by Deacon that he's too much a romantic and the time is not the time for romantics, but for practical men.

n1yqh a: But when he went in it sounded like he didn't really realize the stakes..

n1yqh a: More of a spur fo the moment

ddavitt: As i said; notice he doesn't want to become a Loonie...

ddavitt: A mini hero

AGplusone: Sure, he wants to write a story ... worse, he welshes on bets.

n1yqh a: Besides, had he done anything else he would have seen his family threatened if not killed...

ddavitt: I think he would've paid up david....:-)

AGplusone: Yeah, back home in Iowa ...

AGplusone: or wherever.

ddavitt: Oh yes, but that's more of an abstract,,besides, his family weren't in immediate danger

AGplusone: Whose family?

ddavitt: The idea was to blast a few towns as an example, then settle back for a spot of world domination...

ddavitt: Dahlquist

ddavitt: Which is more or less how the patrol ends up ironically...

ddavitt: What Towers proposes is more or less the situation in SC; without the lack of responsibility to the populace

AGplusone: But Dahlquist's decision is more of an instinct ... he puzzles out the rationale as he goes along. He wants time to think about the offer he's given ... and does something not particularly well thought out that commits him. Accidentally, like taking the ROTC course.

ddavitt: Funny, this is the first time I've noticed that he's quite important; I had the impression he was a soldier, low rank. Actually he has a degree in nuclear ohysics

ddavitt: Wonder why i read it that way?

ddavitt: maybe because he seems a bit naive?

AGplusone: Who, Dahlquist ... he's just a junior lieutenant. Lieutenants are a dime a dozen. He just happens to know how to make the bombs go boom.

AGplusone: Basically, just a fancy artilleryman.

ddavitt: He's the junior bomb officer

AGplusone: Yeah, and once upon a time I was the weapons platoon leader.

ddavitt: With a doctorate

n1yqh a: nothing special about nuclear physics as a degree, as compared to a PhD in anything else...

AGplusone: with a high school education .... but I could make the mortars go boom.

ddavitt: But with that background was he as quick to work out what to do with the bombs as he should be?

AGplusone: And so could the Pfc mortarman who dropped the round in the tube.

ddavitt: And was he a little naive to think he wouldn't be radiation poisoned? Or just too busy to stop and think?

n1yqh a: He seemed to work it out about as quickly as anybody would...

AGplusone: Dahlquist is a kid just out of college who's serving out his ROTC required time ....

n1yqh a: It'd be pretty easy to misjudge just how much radiation would be released...

ddavitt: He's 27 with a wife and child

AGplusone: Whereas, getting back ot GBS, Konski knows all about people getting killed in tunnels and caissons etc ... all his working life.

AGplusone: 27 is a kid.

ddavitt: Showing your age David....

ddavitt: He was old enough to choose to die for others...that's grown up

AGplusone: So the difference I think is Konski knows exactly what the problems are, but does it anyway, whereas Dahlquist 'knows' theoretically, but does something by accident at first, then by design.

n1yqh a: he's got a point, though - no amount of school makes up for real experience...

ddavitt: I'd agree with that but is it just military experience he's lacking? He says he knows the bombs well

n1yqh a: (said as a 22 year old with school but lacking in experience and proving it every day at the lab )

AGplusone: How many 30-40 year olds would say: "I'll take the suit and bring help back. You guys sit on the hole."?

n1yqh a: he may know them theoretically, but really have a good practical feel for the bombs?

ddavitt: Ooh...just noticed, in the story he calls himself John Ezra...one point cleared up...

AGplusone: that's why he's surprised as you pointed out, Mike, when his tape is dark all the way .... it's not ground into his mind that the accidents can happen that fast. He knows the theory but doesn't think it through.

n1yqh a: Like I theoretically know how to program microcontrollers, but in reality? All *sorts* of practical issues that srew me up due to lack of experience...

AGplusone: Exactly ... a 'kid' whether a 19 year old private or a 27 year old lieutenant is going to 'instinctively' do the 'right thing' but really doesn't know that what he's getting into will really, truly kill him.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: But still a hero?

AGplusone: That 40 year old sergeant knows exactly what's going to happen.

BPRAL22169: Howdy, finally!

ddavitt: Hi Bill

AGplusone: Hi, Bill.

AGplusone: And so did Konski when he sat his fat ham down on the hole.

ddavitt: How long would it have taken to kill Konski?

ddavitt: Blood loss? Cold?

ddavitt: Very nasty....

AGplusone: Hole as big as a thumb ... how fast do you bleed and freeze? I dunno. I suspect Konski had a fair idea ...

ddavitt: And he kept joking and playing chess to keep Jack calm...]

n1yqh a: he'd probably seen people die similar ways...

n1yqh a: or at least heard of them

AGplusone: Or to win the bet ... a 'fool's mate' for goodness sake!

ddavitt: Jack was probably saved from panic through ignorance

ddavitt: Hey; I've been caught by that! :-)

AGplusone: The reporter had to be brain damaged to lose that badly.

ddavitt: And no way can I play chess in my head...

AGplusone: Not since you were eight I hope.

ddavitt: Wotta nerve!

ddavitt: Not saying

AGplusone: Someone sprung it on me about a week after he 'taught' me to play chess.

ddavitt: Can you really play a whole game mentally David?

AGplusone: No ... 10, 12 moves maybe.

AGplusone: And they have to be along established lines ...

ddavitt: Thought so.....not a Hazel/Buster type genius then. that's a relief :-)

AGplusone: Wonder whether today, if you republished "Gentlemen" you'd use algebraic notation. Does anyone know what P-K4 means?

ddavitt: Pawn to King's four?

ddavitt: How do you mean, algebraic?

AGplusone: true, but they'd write simply "e4" today.

ddavitt: Really?

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: That wouldn't mean anything to me but it's not really my game

ddavitt: We have a lovely set but it gathers dust; Eleanor and david play more than David and I

AGplusone: Whole two generations of chess players have grown up using another system of notation than that used in the 1940s.

AGplusone: Len, as a writer, what attracts you about these two stories ... from screenwriting sense?

ddavitt: I assume Heinlein liked the game?

AGplusone: Are they simply little pieces or would you consider expanding them into a full length script (or could that be done?)?

Lenjazz: By today's formula's, both stories sort of play like teleplays rather that full length motion pictures, I think.

Lenjazz: Both would be good fodder for The Outer Limits

AGplusone: Are either of these stories among those that were projected for scripts in that TV series that Heinlein considered Bill>

AGplusone: Or did they have actual scripts written, just not produced?

AGplusone: I.e., are they shown in the Gifford opus listing?

AGplusone: (as scripts ... )

ddavitt: Does it seem strange that SC came before Long Watch? ( Like Requiem coming before MWSTM)? Were there plans to do stories on the other three patrol heroes? I asked on afh but got no response.

AGplusone: There was a projected 30 minute series ... from GHOE with a few original stories ... one of which became Project Moonbase, the pilot.

BPRAL22169: I'll look it up. Just a sec.

AGplusone: I don't think anyone knows, Jane ... had there been a series, who knows ...

BPRAL22169: The scripts were all given separate opus numbers

BPRAL22169: There was an opera planned for GHOE at one time.

ddavitt: But he must have had some thought in mind to expand the snippet we get in SC into a short story?

AGplusone: There were two chances ... in the Tom Corbett series 'based' on Space Cadet ... and in the series that never got off the ground based on GHOE ...

ddavitt: There was only a gap of a few months between the tow stories.

AGplusone: But RAH never 'wrote' for Tom Corbett ... and they double crossed him on Project Moonbase ...

Lenjazz: An aside...although TLW has a "bad guy", in both of these stories, the obsticle for the hero to overcome is not human...radiation and vacuum. Not the stuff action adventure today.

n1yqh a: "GHOE"?

AGplusone: Green Hills of Earth

ddavitt: Green hills of earth

n1yqh a: right, of course... thanks.

BPRAL22169: Yes -- "The Long Watch" was turned into a teleplay.

AGplusone: Right, Len ... that's pretty true of almost all the short stories in the FH ... space was the adversary

BPRAL22169: But not "Gentlemen." Too risque for television circa 1953

AGplusone: building the station ... building the tunnels ...

ddavitt: You said that on the ng...do you mean the story Konski tells..or the site of the injuries?

Lenjazz: Are those teleplays available anywhere?

AGplusone: UC Santa Cruz?

AGplusone: There's a library collection of Heinlein's papers there.

ddavitt: Neither seem all that bad but times change of course...

AGplusone: I think you need permission to get into it ....

Lenjazz: That is usually the case with private collections...

ddavitt: Any thoughts on publishing any of those bits and pieces?

AGplusone: With the SciFi Channel, you'd think someone would be interested in those old scripts ...

Lenjazz: Was just thinking that...

Lenjazz: Here's an idea...a new series just based on Heinlein's short stories...using the old teleplays as a basis for a pitch...imagine, a whole new generation explosed to RAH!

BPRAL22169: They are not restricted mss. Anyone can see them.

AGplusone: Hear anything about that, Bill? Ginny had something in discussion with Bova about publishing the story

ddavitt: But you have to go there....

BPRAL22169: I don't think it would hurt to say we are investigating the possibility of getting the rights reverted to the estate -- and if it becomes possible, Outer Limits is one possibility.

Lenjazz: Santa Cruz is nice this time of year.

BPRAL22169: Which story, David? There are two original unpublished stories.

ddavitt: But a long way from Ontario....

AGplusone: The Green Hills of Earth on the web and Elephants I think, but has there been any effort to script ...

BPRAL22169: Only about 510 miles...

AGplusone: The original stories as they appeared in print, not the scripts.

BPRAL22169: There were a number of radio plays, as well.

AGplusone: Don't think there was as scrip of Elephants ever

ddavitt: More than that isn't it?

BPRAL22169: (Ontario, California, Jane! )

Lenjazz: From the above, are the rights to the teleplays still owned by a studio? Network?

ddavitt: Ah.....!!!

BPRAL22169: That's a complicated question, Lenjazz.

ddavitt: i know california does come wuite far north though...but it is on the other coast

BPRAL22169: They were assigned to a production company in 1953, but they never did anything with them.

Lenjazz: Usually those contracts have drop dead dates. These didn't?

BPRAL22169: Nope. Work-done-for-hire apparently -- at least some of them. A lawyer is looking at them to sort of the who-what-when-where-and-why of it.

Lenjazz: Ah...we still face the work-for-hire bugaboo.

BPRAL22169: It's kind of fading out in film, but still alive and kicking in tv.

AGplusone: It would be great to see a series produced.

Lenjazz: Yep.

AGplusone: I've always thought the short stories would adapt beautifully to TV or movies ...

ddavitt: The GHOE stories could make a film if there was a unifying link

AGplusone: far better than efforts to do Stranger, for example.

ddavitt: unusual but not impossible.

Lenjazz: Of course, there are plenty of short stories that must still be in the estate that could be adapted by a dedicated producer.

BPRAL22169: I don't think Stranger would be filmable as a movie -- have to be a series.

Fldax has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: hi, Laurie.

ddavitt: It would require some changes; could make it the history of a family instead of lots of different people...

Fldax: Hi Bill, and everyone else

AGplusone: Welcome!

Lenjazz: If we can believe the 4filmmakers website, Stranger is in production at Paramount...set in old west...really, I read that.

ddavitt: Hi there

BPRAL22169: Paramount has had that property for decades.

ddavitt: No! Good grief....mind boggling as I type...

BPRAL22169: And, of course, it may be an adaptation of Stranger the way The Man Who Fell To Earth was an adaptation of Stranger -- which is to say, "not."

Lenjazz: Yep...go to www.4filmmakers.com and do a search Heinlein. It's grim.

Fldax: Frightening

Lenjazz: Although they do state "loosly based on..."

AGplusone: We're talking about filming the short stories such as "The Long Watch" and "Gentlemen Be Seated," Laurie. And about the abortive series scripted back in 53 or so, that resulted in Project Moonbase and nothing else except some scripts.

ddavitt: ha!

Fldax: I guess they think that cove rs their rear echelons

BPRAL22169: The thought of a botched Stranger is much more disturbing to me than the botch they made of Starship Troopers.

ddavitt: Lots more room for manouvere

Fldax: I agree

ddavitt: Pray they never film the lazarus story....

ddavitt: Though Job would be fun to watch.

AGplusone: And how much temptation would there be with something like "The Long Watch" to be an auteur? You couldn't load much extraneous onto that in a thirty minute or even 90 minute script, could you?

AGplusone: Without going very "loosely" based ....

Lenjazz: Maybe there is hope. With the development of digital technology, a talented group, with a sincere desire to put RAH's work on the screen, as it should be, might have chance.

AGplusone: Johnnie Dahlquist growing up ... his wife writing to him from Iowa.

BPRAL22169: It wouldn't fit into a half-hour format anyway. Just as well the only half-hour stuff left is highly formulaic sitcom.

ddavitt: Is there enough there to make a story that long? not a lot actually _happens_ in the story; it'a ll emotional and inner thoughts as it stands.

ddavitt: Not that there's anything wrong with that but would it translate to a visual medium?

Pixelmeow has entered the room.

ddavitt: Teresa! Hi there.

ddavitt: what took you so long?!

AGplusone: Hi, Pix! LTNC

Lenjazz: ddavit: I had to think a bit...sure, it could be worked out.

Fldax: Hi

Pixelmeow: Goodness!!! It takes a lot to get ahold of someone while you guys are chatting!

ddavitt: With padding and extra background maybe...but wouldn't that spoil it?

ddavitt: Have you been trying to get here?

Pixelmeow: Hey, David, would you call Steve in?

AGplusone: I saw something on Saturday morning TV shown for kids about 180 degree turns by a shuttle to a station. Prince, Pixel?

Lenjazz: One of the most interesting visual elements of the story is his isolation on the moon...with nothing but bombs for companions...good stuff.

AGplusone: He's on AOL only right now. Has to be on AIM

Pixelmeow: I have been installing aim, then I had to install the upgrade, then I couldn't get hold of anyone... Hi Jane, Hi David, Hi Bill, and Hi to the two of you who I don't know. :-)

ddavitt: Would need to expand the political background behind the coup; shorn from the FH background it would need some explaining

ddavitt: So you have voice now?

AGplusone: Fldax=Laurie

AGplusone: Len=Len

AGplusone: n1ygh a=Mike Spears from AFH

Pixelmeow: Hello all! Hey, I thought it was Mike Shear! I didn't see his name. Hi!

n1yqh a: Mike *SHEAR*, actually...

Lenjazz: Not really...the conflict is isolated, at the moment, to bomb room.

AGplusone: You could do that ... I cannot spell my own name ususally ...

n1yqh a: (just got back from eating, which is why I've been so quiet... )

ddavitt: Don't mention food; david is hungry:-)

Lenjazz: Hi folks who just joined...I don't know you, but guess I will at some point.

AGplusone: (I've been thining abvout Brittany Spears anyway lately, Mike :-)

ddavitt: We're all very nice....

AGplusone: except me

ddavitt: I'm jane btw in case you're confused.

Pixelmeow: Jane, I guess I have voice, I dunno, I just got into this thing. I take it we are talking about the guy on the moon who disabled all the bombs? Wonderful story.

BPRAL22169: Not me. I snap at Libertarian Bills.

Pixelmeow: :-)

Lenjazz: ddavitt=jane?

ddavitt: You're tangling with Cryo randy if I'm not mistaken too Bill

ddavitt: Yes

ddavitt: Cinnicatus or whatever seems suspiciously familiar to me

AGplusone: I think that London thread is interesting, btw, now that we've defined 'socialism' maybe we can get to discussing some London influences

BPRAL22169: Yes, indoody. I felt it necessary to jump on that "commie" bit and "cashiered" even though it was Cryo-Randi.

Pixelmeow: Is that popsicle back again???

ddavitt: Sure it's him from comments on other threads....vindictive idiot.

AGplusone: Like the 'fascist' threads ...

ddavitt: fraid so pixel

ddavitt: Is there an identifiable london influence on a story like Twain?kipling?

ddavitt: I've never read any by him

Pixelmeow: I haven't gotten to the London thread yet, pardon me if I just listen in

AGplusone: How 'bout a five minute break ... and we each think of a question about either of the two we're discussing, or a statement ....

ddavitt: OK

AGplusone: I have to wind Bob ... or pet him, or let him check all the doors ...

AGplusone: Back at 1020 PM ET

Pixelmeow: David, Steve is downloading aim as well, he'll be back in a bit. I wish I had a cat!!!

Pixelmeow: Okay.

AGplusone: Okay ... gotcha

ddavitt: My Talisker is poorl today; gungy eyes and very listless

Pixelmeow: Oh, poor thing!

Fldax: I have an 8 month old kitten traipsing all over the keys. I think I'll go put him in the other room

ddavitt: Got caught in a thunderstorm yesterday; calling him for hours

Pixelmeow: Oh, you are cruel! I want a yellow stripey kitten so bad it hurts.

ddavitt: Luckily we are close friends with our vet so I'll be able to get him seen tomorrow if he's no better

Fldax: Okay, he stays, but if I start writing gibberish, you'll know why

ddavitt: Can't you have one where you live teresa?

Pixelmeow: Yes, that's definitely good. I'll watch out for gibberish... I am moving soon, and can have one there.

Pixelmeow: YAY!!!

ddavitt: Great!

ddavitt: How;s the studying going?

Pixelmeow: I will also be getting a dachsund, I love those little guys!

ddavitt: Hope they get on :-)

Pixelmeow: Oh, I guess I should have made an announcement...

ddavitt: ??

Pixelmeow: I graduated with a 3.01 gpa on May 13. :-)

ddavitt: :-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

Pixelmeow: Thanks!!!

ddavitt: :-Das well

AGplusone: (you're an official batchlor now?)

Pixelmeow: My mother is so proud of me!

Pixelmeow: :-)]

ddavitt: naturally, that's what mums are for!

Pixelmeow: Who is a batchelor? You mean my degree? Yes, of science!!!!

BPRAL22169: Franklin attributes the invisibility device in "My Object All Sublime" to "Jack London's "The Shadow and the Flash," and says "the whimsical jumble of fantastic time tracks [of "Elsewhen"] contrasts sharply with thenovel from whic hthis story derives, Jack London's "The Star Rover" (1915), in which a political prisoner in San Quentin escapes from incessant torture by achieving different identities in the

ddavitt: BSc...nifty!

BPRAL22169: class struggle that has constiutted actual human history."

Pixelmeow: I had to take a math degree instead of comp sci, since I failed a class that was required for the degree... :-(

ddavitt: But I haven't read Object either :-(

Pixelmeow: I will sit back and watch for a few...

ddavitt: I'll have to trek to the library and get some London; any online at Gutenburg?

AGplusone: Someone please get on an IM to Fldax. Her cat just walked on the keys and she lost the window this room is in ....

Fldax: Back again folks. The kitten stepped on the wrong combination of keys and bounced me out of the group.

AGplusone: I think she needs to un-minimize it or whatever it is that windoze requires

ddavitt: Welcome back...

n1yqh a: "escape" closes it permenantly - I've done that myself without the excuse of a cat a few times... :-)

AGplusone: WB (which doesn't stand for Bugs Bunny's production company).

BPRAL22169: He also traces the guilds of Starman Jones to The Iron Heel, and the historical footnotes in TEFL.

ddavitt: I'm making notes here Bill....

Pixelmeow: brb

BPRAL22169: London is not in the index of the Stover book -- lots of Whitman, though.

ddavitt: Heinlein stories seem to be a mosaic of influences; fascinating to identify them all ( if that's possible)

ddavitt: And to spot where it's pure Heinlein...

AGplusone: Okay, back to "Gentlemen Be Seated" and "The Long Watch" ... whose question shall I call first?

ddavitt: Deathly silence.....

AGplusone: How bout the longest away ... you're up, Pix!

ddavitt: Is she back yet?

Pixelmeow: Okay, I can comment on Long Watch

AGplusone: GA

ddavitt: Guess you are....:-)

Pixelmeow: because I have read it and it touched me deeply. Yep, jane~

Pixelmeow: Is there anything special I should say so far as this discussion?

Pixelmeow: A theme, for instance?

AGplusone: Any thing you wish

AGplusone: I always cry, but what I cry about probably changes ... the older I get.

Pixelmeow: Okay, it's been a while since I read it, back when I was begging for books. I definitely cry, it's so sad, but at the same time

Pixelmeow: it is so heroic and it makes me proud that our sorry race can produce such people as him.

AGplusone: I read a few late forties and early fifties books ... one thing about them I always felt was true was how very idealistic people were about the UN. And how we lost that too quickly. But Johnnie believed it.

Fldax: It's off the subject, but I feel the same way about

Fldax: Rhysling

Pixelmeow: Did he have a family waiting for him? I don't remember, but if so then he is the very man Heinlein said should go to war, in Sail.

ddavitt: Johnny had a wife and baby

BPRAL22169: And this all relates back to that first model Heinlein talks about -- the tramp in the park in 1911 or so...

ddavitt: I read a bit about a later version of that story ( a true one) set in 1930's..

Pixelmeow: OT: David, Steve needs an invite, how do I do that?

AGplusone: It must have deeply (use Cmd-T and type his name into the box)

ddavitt: There, people were more disapproving because the man who died saving his wife left children to be orphaned

BPRAL22169: He was only 5 or 6 years old at that time, but it stayed with him all his life.

AGplusone: influenced his family, because RAH was only about four years old then.

ddavitt: That changes it a little doesn't it?

AGplusone: Think maybe it was something his grandfather Lyle discussed with him, Bill?

ddavitt: it comes into an L m Motgomery book, The Blue castle 9 but with a happy ending as the author got insoiartion from the newspaper story

BPRAL22169: Could be -- but maybe not; Lyle was in Butler. Could have done so on summer visits.

ddavitt: Gosh, how many spelling mistakes there?

Prnzofthvs has entered the room.

Prnzofthvs: I'm baaack

ddavitt: Hi steve, got here at last!

Pixelmeow: Hey, Steve!!!

BPRAL22169: Yo, Stevie!

AGplusone: Welcome back

Fldax: Hi Steve

Prnzofthvs: yes; new puter; didn't have AIM on it; didn't know where to get it

Prnzofthvs: [---dummy

AGplusone: glad you made it

BPRAL22169: That's an interestiing thought -- Alvah Lyle didn't dieuntil 1914. There was time to talk over that Swope Park incident . . . if he thought about it.

n1yqh a: You installed AIM and didn't crash it? Wow....

ddavitt: Might Heinlein have heard of the 1930's one too and been reminded of a childhood story?

Prnzofthvs: although I don't know what I can add, given the intellectual make-up of this group

Pixelmeow: Hey, I didn't crash mine either! But when I invited Steve, my font changed.... ???

AGplusone: Seems like it would be something the old man would mention ... if the boy spent time with him ... I always feel that young Robert spent time like Maureen did, on his rounds (house calls) ....

ddavitt: Refreshed his memory a bit?

Prnzofthvs: (evil laugh)

BPRAL22169: Wonder if he had night frights about it -- Bammie might have mentioned it to her father.

AGplusone: Like the visit to the Igo household. The old man would get reflective after something like that ....

Prnzofthvs: there are some folks here I don't seem to know...

BPRAL22169: Apparently he was told about it rather than witnessingit.

AGplusone: and want to tell the boy something inspiring about mankind

ddavitt: You can't predict what sticks in a child's mind; or how they can misinterpret it or learn from it

Prnzofthvs: excuse me; what are you discussing?

ddavitt: Tramp and husband dying on railtracks to save woman

Fldax: I'll have to bow out for tonight. The kitten is trying to chew the computer coards and pull the keyboard off the tray at the same time. Neat trick...talented kitten!

Fldax has left the room.

BPRAL22169: But that's the kind of story taht can go either way -- the utter futility of trying to be and do good. They all died.

Prnzofthvs: oh God....

AGplusone: The two stories tonight, Gentlemen Be Seated, and The Long Watch, and the notion of the heroic sacrifice

BPRAL22169: It meant something to Heinlein because he had a personal inclination to gallantry.

ddavitt: Yes, I have to go too; this is my parents last night here; they fly home tomorrow and it's getting late for me 10.30. See you all soon!

Pixelmeow: Bye Jane!.

Prnzofthvs: see ya!

AGplusone: And why Heinlein's stories had so many of them (Rhysling, Sam Jones, etc.)

ddavitt has left the room.

Pixelmeow: What was the name of the man in Long Watch?

AGplusone: John Ezra Dahlquist

BPRAL22169: Johnny (or Ezra) Dahlquist.

AGplusone: Or Ezra John in Space Cadet

Pixelmeow: Ah yes, thanks. I think it's great how many times in other stories you see him as the hero of an age. Yes, David, like in Space Cadet!

Pixelmeow: I liked how he handled things, and I sorta hold him as a standard by which to compare other "heroes".

Pixelmeow: You know, like sports or movie stars...

Pixelmeow: supermodels

Pixelmeow: others of such ilk

Pixelmeow: :-)

n1yqh a: But he was underpaid and overworked instead of vice versa... :-)

Pixelmeow: Yeah, there's that... ;-)

Pixelmeow: Hey Steve, howja like these smileys?

AGplusone: The 'noble' portrait of Noisy Rhysling comes to mind. Wonder what Johnnie was portrayed (or would be portrayed in a TV series today) to look like ... no rolling a last butt out of the used up ones and blowing C14 at the geiger counter I suppose .... and laughing at it.

Prnzofthvs: they're just so so neato keen!

Pixelmeow: I would keep that cigarette scene and damn the PC!

Pixelmeow: :-D

AGplusone: It does convey a tone,didn't it?

Pixelmeow: Steve, that's the one with the D on it.

Pixelmeow: Yes, it does, no matter that it's a cigarette! I loved that!

Prnzofthvs: :oD

Prnzofthvs: :-D

AGplusone: How would you write an alternative expression, Len?

Pixelmeow: You got it, Steve!

AGplusone: "resigned to fate" ....

Lenjazz: I think the point is that the essence of who Johnny is was doomed...utterly.

Prnzofthvs: ;-O

n1yqh a: Don't mind me, I'm just trying to figure out how the hell you'd get14C generated...

Lenjazz: Would have to work on that...

AGplusone: Yes ... what would you do to convey that?

Pixelmeow: Such fire, such conviction, no matter what, and I don't see it as resigned, I see it as kicking fate in the teeth~

Pixelmeow: What on earth is 14C?

AGplusone: radioactive isotope of Carbon

Pixelmeow: Oh, duh...

Prnzofthvs: Many folks would just give up and not try to save anyone, in that situation

Pixelmeow: I'm not used to seeing it written that way. :-?

BPRAL22169: About 20 degrees Fahrenheit

Prnzofthvs: "If I gotta die, screw 'em" sort of thing

Pixelmeow: :-\

AGplusone: Heinlein says the CO2 in his exhalation is C14 by then ....

Pixelmeow: Yes, Steve, that's it exactly.

Lenjazz: Hmmm...breath alone might work...especiallyl if Towers had turned off the heat...vapor you know...glowing...radioactive...

AGplusone: 'artistic license' or would it be true?

Pixelmeow: Oh, ha ha, Bill!!!

Prnzofthvs: breath alone? how much garlic had he eaten?

Pixelmeow: Does CO2 turn into C14? That is interesting... Not a chemistry major, but that stuff is sorta fresh in my mind. Hm, knock of the O2 and add 2 electrons... How?

Lenjazz: Water vapor...the cold of space...the moon.

AGplusone: What impressed you the most about either Gentlemen Be Seated or The Long Watch, Steve? Or that you felt was important ???

Pixelmeow: And please refresh my memory on that first story?

AGplusone: Maybe it's monoxide ... I dunno. Suspect Heinlein checked.

Prnzofthvs: well, gentlemen I don't remember so clearly at the moment. Long Watch - the idea of knowing you will die as a result of an action, yet doing it anyway, "for the greater good."

AGplusone: Gentlemen Be Seated is the blowout in the lunar tunnel when the Fat tunnel worker sits on the hole.

Pixelmeow: Monoxide... That doesn't happen in nature, so it would have to be in some solution or as a part of a molecule.

BPRAL22169: I think he meant the carbon atom had absorbed an alpha particle and stayed in molecular combination with the oxygen -- that's an electron-shell thing.

n1yqh a: The only way I can think of to get 14-C offhand would be neutron activation of 13-C --- but there isn't a whole hell of a lot of 13-C, and the 16-N would be a lot more common and a lot hotter than the 14-C (at an offhand guess, at least)

Pixelmeow: Oh yes, I like that story as well. I was so glad that they made it. Whew!

AGplusone: May have been C-13 ... haven't read it in a few weeks.

Prnzofthvs: I don't think the sacrifice in "Gentlemen" was, even potentially, as serious as in "Watch"

n1yqh a: I'll shut up now... sorry, a nuclear engineering major is a hard habit to break...

Pixelmeow: Yes, Bill, that sorta works, in my totally newbie brain, but where does the O2 go? The electron shell thing is what I was suggesting by a molecule. But what do I know??? :-)

AGplusone: The end of the sacrifice by Dahlquist was more 'important' but the sacrifice by Konski was equal ... one live is all we each get.

Prnzofthvs: question, why do you refer to carbon 14 asn 14C, rather than C14?

BPRAL22169: It doesn't "go" anywhere -- it stays in the CO2 molecule.

AGplusone: And Konski 'knew' what he was doing, Dahlquist, despite his degree, sorta wanders into it ... wants to think at first ....

Pixelmeow: Oh, okay, that makes sense too. Make a whole new molecule with one of the parts as C14 instead of C12.

Prnzofthvs: But I didn't get the impression that death was as certain for Konski as it was for Dahlquist

Prnzofthvs: Or even as likely

n1yqh a: Sorry, either is correct, but the atomic mass preceeding the chemical element symbol is slightly more common in the techical literature, of which I've been reading a bunch of recently

n1yqh a: I'll try to remember to use "element-number" instead...

AGplusone: Maybe it was the different attitute Konski had. Business as usual. Johnnie was a bit self consciously gallant at the end.

Prnzofthvs: okay, thanks; (not a chemist)

Pixelmeow: You know, David is right, we seem to think a lot more of those who die doing heroic things than of those who don't die.

Lenjazz: Must go for a while. Will check back later. As interesting as the chemistry is, I would still advocate the point is Johnny was totally and completely irradiated. Anyway...later.

Pixelmeow: Bye!

Lenjazz has left the room.

Pixelmeow: Isn't it funny how a chat degenerates sometimes just like the group? :-)

Prnzofthvs: Well, I think that is only fair. If one does something heroic and knows his/her own death will be the result...

AGplusone: or could be ... as Konski certainly did ...

Prnzofthvs: inevitably, that is

Pixelmeow: But if one lives, we don't seem to give them as much credit, even tho they thought they would die.

Pixelmeow: I mean, how do you know that someone knows they will die, except in a story?

Prnzofthvs: I don't know about that. I know that in my one time of nobility (not planned, I assure you) I lived and another died, trying to do similar things. I was given quite a bit of attention, almost more than the chap who died

AGplusone: Konski looks around and sees he's got the biggest plug ... the paymaster is the smallest and uses the least oxygen so he gives him the suit and says "Go get help." Meanwhile I'll set here and tell stories and beat the reporter in chess, for money, of course.

Prnzofthvs: And I went into it not expecting to even come close to dying

Pixelmeow: David, that man really gave me goose bumps when he did that.

Lucylou98 has entered the room.

AGplusone: And when Konski passes out, the reporter is calmed down enough by Konski's business as usual attitude to sit down in his place.

Pixelmeow: And Steve, that doesn't discount your heroism in the least.

AGplusone: Hi, Lucy

Lucylou98: Hello..

Prnzofthvs: It wasn't heroism, as far as I'm concerned - because I didn't know that it was dangerous before I did it

Pixelmeow: Okay, who's Lucy? Hello!

Lucylou98: Hi, Pixel.

AGplusone: Guys named "Fatso" aren't supposed to be heroes ...

Pixelmeow: Yeah, I can see that, but in the end it was, so that counts. :-)

Prnzofthvs: I'm not sure what I would have done, had I had time to think about the potential dangers

Lucylou98: I've read things you have posted:-)

Pixelmeow: That is the essence of bravery, my minion. :-)

Prnzofthvs: I didn't even know about the rip currents at the time

Pixelmeow: Oh goodness, what in the world, this has the ring of familiarity...

Prnzofthvs: No...you don't understand. I really really thought I was safe in doing what I did, before I did it. Afterwards, I was scared shitless!

Pixelmeow: Why can a guy named fatso not be a hero!!!!!!

AGplusone: Which story is it when RAH discusses 'heroism', e.g., the people who jump into a lake to save the child even tho they cannot swim, the father (sick) going after the last few paychecks for his family, etc. ....

Pixelmeow: Yes, I understand. I also understand that true heroes never believe themselves to be such.

AGplusone: or is it one of the essays in Expanded Universe ...?

Pixelmeow: I don't remember, but I know that Piers Anthony had a great definition

AGplusone: GA, give it

Pixelmeow: If you are scared shitless, and go ahead and do it, then you are a hero. Or at least brave!

Prnzofthvs: Well, I've just finished re-reading "Tales of the South Pacific." Those guys were true heroes, in my opinion.

Pixelmeow: But if you turn around, or try to find a way out, then you're not.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Tawn, Welcome

TAWN3: hello all

Prnzofthvs: And, as I said, I wasn't scared at the time; only after I was too far to turn back anyway

AGplusone: Like Dahlquist, once committed, go whole hog ....

Pixelmeow: Allright, Who is Lucy, and Who is Tawn (Saw you on the group, Hello!)???

TAWN3: Tawn is me

AGplusone: since I'm breaking up the firing mechanism, might as well destroy the shapes.

Prnzofthvs: Believe me, if I could have pulled out when I realized what I had gotten myself into, I would have

Pixelmeow: I like whole hawg, if you can't do it right, don't do it at all!!!

Lucylou98: Hey, tawn!

AGplusone: Lucy and Tawn are AOL regulars, Pix

n1yqh a: more like "the firing sets can easily be recreated, the shapes can't be"

TAWN3: i've talked to you before pixel meow, although i forgot your name

Pixelmeow: Oh? I'm Teresa.

n1yqh a: so wrecking the firing sets would only delay them for a few hours/days, which wouldn't be sufficient

AGplusone: Yes. Like "I could jury rig something. Might as well do it right!"

Prnzofthvs: she's the lovely teresa!

Pixelmeow: Steve!!!

Pixelmeow: <~~~ blushing!

Prnzofthvs: blushing?

Pixelmeow: Yes, you!

Prnzofthvs: I just thought that was a bad sunburn

Pixelmeow: :-P

n1yqh a: more of "I could jury-rig something which won't work, or I could do it right" - a world of difference from "I could kluge something that would work well enough, or build something that would work perfectly"

Prnzofthvs: I don't get that many chances to flirt, okay?

Pixelmeow: So, Mike, his destroying the missiles didn't do any good???

AGplusone: We were talking about the nature of heroism, Tawn ... in the two stories ...

Pixelmeow: Okay, Steve, I understand! ;-)

n1yqh a: no, destroying the firing sets (the "brains") didn't - and that was explicitly stated in the story.

AGplusone: Mike, what impressed you the most about either of these two stories?

n1yqh a: (not "not any good", rather "a very sharply limited amount of good that's not good enough")

Pixelmeow: Oh, yes, that's right. He went into the missiles and broke apart the stuff in them, which I did remember, I just don't know the jargon.

n1yqh a: That's a tough question to answer, since they both impressed me a lot (as does most of RAH's stuff)...

Pixelmeow: Did you have a preference for either hero?

AGplusone: (And breaking up the spheres was what exposed him to a legal dose of radiation ...)

Prnzofthvs: I still like Johnny more

AGplusone: lethal

Pixelmeow: (Yes, I think I got that at the time, but my chemistry "knowledge" doesn't go that far :-))

Prnzofthvs: Whew, I thought you meant he had stolen the roentgens!

AGplusone: I liked Johnnie more when I read it the first time. Still, and again, I'd go into a hole under a river with Konski and feel very safe ... :-)

Pixelmeow: ROFL!!

Prnzofthvs: I'd rather stay at home and watch either one on TV

Pixelmeow: Was Konski nice at the start of the story? As in, not an asshole?

n1yqh a: I kind of thought that Konski was more knowingly heroic, as he was facing an "everyday" (for him, at least) source of possible death knowingly while Dahlquist was facing a more exotic, theoretical, and much less immediately apparent source of death not entirely knowingly.

Prnzofthvs: <----not the hero type

AGplusone: I dunno about a guy who takes a ballpeen hammer to spheres of plutonium or U345

Lucylou98: was it uranium he was exposed to?

Lucylou98: oh plutonium

Pixelmeow: U345? Is that the right number?

n1yqh a: I think it was Pu-239, but I don't remember for sure - might have been U-235 just as easily.

AGplusone: can't recall

Prnzofthvs: u235, I believe

Pixelmeow: Yes, that's what I was remembering.

AGplusone: some numbers like that ... senior moments aflict me

n1yqh a: I don't think anybody's managed to get anything over 300 yet.... ;-)

AGplusone: :-)

Prnzofthvs: Had plutonium been discovered at that time?

Pixelmeow: That's okay, David, we understand.

AGplusone: tanks loads, Pix

n1yqh a: Yes, Pu had been known since IIRC the '30s.

Prnzofthvs: I mean, when the tale was writen?

Pixelmeow: Anytime, David! ;-)

Prnzofthvs: ah...see? not a chemist, here

AGplusone: 8-)

Pixelmeow: So does anyone remember if Konski was a good guy at the start of the story?

Pixelmeow: I seem to remember changing my mind about him, for some reason.

BPRAL22169: yes -- i've seen a discussion with Campbell of fast breeder reactors in 1948.

AGplusone: The paymaster seems to go to a bit of trouble to make sure the reporter knows that Konski isn't exactly the most kosher guy working for them.

BPRAL22169: IIRC Kosnki was a Union Guy. So whichever way your prejudices lean . . .

Prnzofthvs: I think he was one of those bluff exterior types.

n1yqh a: My bad - discovered in 1940 by Seaborg, Kennedy, McMillan, and Wahl.

AGplusone: "How come you had to leave Venus ... ?"

Lucylou98: Plutonium comes from Uranium anyway..?

Prnzofthvs: He reminds me of the character "Luther Billis" in Michener's "Tales of the South Pacific."

AGplusone: But Konski, when tracking, is shrewd ... no question about that ...

n1yqh a: Well.... Pu kinda sorta comes from U.... It's a little more complicated than that, though...

AGplusone: Been a while since I've read Mitchner's stories ....

Pixelmeow: Maybe it was the other guy's opinion that colored mine.

Prnzofthvs: He was termed a "Big Operator" (scam expert) but volunteered for every dangerous mission that came along

AGplusone: Ah ... yeah. You've got the number of the guy, Steve.

AGplusone: Paymaster didn't pick Konski at random ... writers get in accidents they write bad stories.

Prnzofthvs: But, call him a hero, and he'd probably punch you in the eye!

AGplusone: I thought Dahlquist was a 'hero' but Konski was a man.

Prnzofthvs: yep. unassuming, quietly brave guy

AGplusone: Dahlquist might have grown into a Konski ...

Lucylou98: I've forgotten who was in which story. Someone?

Pixelmeow: Konski didn't think about it, he just did it.

Pixelmeow: I kinda like that.

AGplusone: Lieutenant Dahlquist is the bomb officer on the Moon Base.

BPRAL22169: Konski is the "Gentleman" of "GBS"

Prnzofthvs: no, Dahlquist was an officer and gentleman. He might have died heroically anyway, but would have done so with the sun glinting off his teeth sort of thing

AGplusone: Konski is the sand hog (worker) who escorts the reporter in Gentlemen Be Seated.

Pixelmeow: Yes, Steve, he thought and did it anyway. That's why I liked the cigarette scene.

Lucylou98: Thank you Bill.

AGplusone: Remember RAH's definition of 'gentleman'?

Prnzofthvs: Those guys (sand hogs) are all heroes, in my book. Saw a docu on them recently...

AGplusone: And noblisse oblige (sp?)

Pixelmeow: Okay, I've given my name, you two need to give yours! Because I said so!

Pixelmeow: David, you got it right.

Prnzofthvs: no, it's noblEsse

AGplusone: which two, Pix?

AGplusone: thank you ...

Pixelmeow: Sorry, Steve, I got it wrong...

AGplusone: Bpral is Bill Patterson

Pixelmeow: David, they know who they are!

Prnzofthvs: <---HS French whiz ;-)

BPRAL22169: All the old cobbers know me.

n1yqh a: Dahlquist didn't do anything which he thought would be deadly until after he already knew that he had picked up a lethal dose....

Pixelmeow: I've got Lucy as Lisa (makettle?)

Pixelmeow: and nothing on Tawn3

Lucylou98: Pixel, I am Lisa. Nice to meet you

Prnzofthvs: fair dinkum guy, even though he's one of the too many Bill's we have around

Lucylou98: Different Lisa

AGplusone: and dwrighsr is just recording .... off doing something (by logging)

BPRAL22169: HE relaxed to the inevitable -- another favorite them of RAH's

Pixelmeow: Okay, works for me, Lisa. Loved your website!

dwrighsr: Hi. I'm here. Just finished watching 'The Stand'

Pixelmeow: Bill, who relaxed to the inevitable?

BPRAL22169: Dahlquist.

Lucylou98: Thank you, Pixel.

Pixelmeow: And dwrighsr, wasn't that a great movie?

AGplusone: (David Wright kindly has given us space on his website for the logs of these chats)

Pixelmeow: Yes, I thought of Dahlquist that way too, but he did march right into it anyway...

Pixelmeow: Two davids here tonight?????

AGplusone: yep, as always ...

TAWN3: pixel, Tawn is Tawn ooouuummmmhhhhhhhhh ooooouuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhh (Tibetan chant :-)

Pixelmeow: Grief, I have a hard enough time keeping all the Bills, Steves, Dans (sob), etc straight on the group!

AGplusone: You can call me Zim .... or anything you wish except late to dinner

Pixelmeow: I'm not into Buddhism!!!!! Don't know a thing about it!!!!!

Pixelmeow: Heehee! I'm never that either, David!

Pixelmeow: brb, off for a beer

AGplusone: btw, I have to leave a little early tonight ... have to pick wife up .... When I leave, Mike, would you like to keep ball rolling til 12?

Pixelmeow: I'll hang in for a while, if you do

AGplusone: Why don't we take five, back at 1125 ET

Pixelmeow: Tawn, that wasn't a yell...

TAWN3: ?

Pixelmeow: I just didn't want you to think I was yelling. :-)

AGplusone: (and when we come back, Tawn gets to tell us what he thinks is important about the two stories)

TAWN3: oh

TAWN3: don't pick on me!

Pixelmeow: Me??? I would never!

TAWN3: I'll save it for Saturday when we have a fresh three hours

Prnzofthvs: There's no trouble keeping me straight, Pix; I'm a stubborn hetero...

Pixelmeow: I would never dream of it, Steve!

Pixelmeow: Everyone is so talkative...

Prnzofthvs: Well you said you had trouble keeping us all straight....

Pixelmeow: Not you, I can tell who you are by your writing style!

AGplusone: (okay, then, Tawn gets to ask question of what we think about whatever in the two stories ... )

Prnzofthvs: writing style? you mean rude, mean, obnoxious and profane?

TAWN3: I'll pass David. Not prepared. Time got away from me. Such an easy assignment, was easy to put off, until now.

Pixelmeow: But I did say that, so I should say that it's just the names, not the writing. Yes, those things you said!

TAWN3: Will waity to Saturday

Prnzofthvs: that's waity-poo, please!

TAWN3: I read the first page or so

AGplusone: Let me ask you then ... how true to life was the portrait of the ROTC tech officer you saw in Dahlquist to those you saw during your service?

AGplusone: remember the guy is just a technician ....

TAWN3: I hope your not asking me. I admit I haven't read it yet, except for page one

TAWN3: It has been years since i last read it

Prnzofthvs: I saw some reserve types who were "just doin' their time," and I knew others who were very dedicated. Both got out as soon as possible, but big difference while they were in

n1yqh a: (sorry I've been so quiet - I'm busy having a rollicking good time trying to calculate the result of a high neutron flux on atmosphere - I'll get it worked out by the weekend and post it to the ng... )

AGplusone: a specialist ... but he does the Horatio at the Bridge, the 300 Spartans at Hot Springs number ....

TAWN3: I was all set to read it two weeks ago, saw how easy it would be (short), waited, and well, now no more time :-)

TAWN3: So I'll wait until Saturday to comment.

AGplusone: when the regulars decide to have a little coup to set things up the way 'things should be' ....

Pixelmeow: I've done that before, for one of these chats. At least I had homework for an excuse! :-)

AGplusone: (or some of the regulars) ...

Pixelmeow: What do you mean?

AGplusone: the officers who hold the coup ...

AGplusone: I agree with Steve, btw, some could, some couldn't

Prnzofthvs: such as in the Gene Hackman/Denzel Washington submarine movie (can't remember the name)

TAWN3: Good movie

dwrighsr: 'Crimson Tide'

AGplusone: RAH doesn't call upon this reserve to lead, just act himself, not beyond his capabilities ....

TAWN3: Red something

AGplusone: Yes, seen it.

TAWN3: or crimson

Prnzofthvs: or maybe it was Puce...

AGplusone: Read it too. Larry Bond I think

Prnzofthvs: "If you fire that missile, I'll scratch your eyes out...."

Pixelmeow: Did you know that Puce is a sort of light lavender mauve?

Prnzofthvs: You'll have to excuse me; I watched the gay and lesbian comedy festival on cable last night

Prnzofthvs: had me rolling!

TAWN3: I thought it was what a gay guy did after drinking too much. you know, he puce.

BPRAL22169: I thought it was a cherry-pink like a watered down magenta.

BPRAL22169: maroon, I meant.

Prnzofthvs: well, then, changing houses must be mauving

AGplusone: We were talking eariler about cable tv and possibility of producing some of the old RAH scripts (The Long Watch, for example) on the SciFi channel ...

Pixelmeow: Ha, ha, ha. Steve, you are a treasure.

Prnzofthvs: I think they would be a perfect fit, if they can afford the rights

Pixelmeow: Bill, you could be right, I've only seen one example of it.

AGplusone: [okay, gotta leave, go get wife. who wants the conn?]

Prnzofthvs: If you get a chance to see the festival on cable, BTW, do not miss it!

Pixelmeow: Does someone gotta take it?

AGplusone: nope ...

Pixelmeow: Well, I'm staying.

Prnzofthvs: can't we all just continue to hang out here?

AGplusone: just remember to decide when to cut off log .... David and Bill

AGplusone: Nite all.

BPRAL22169: WB Dave ave atquevale.

Pixelmeow: Whoever wants to. Bye!

Prnzofthvs: we promise not to write on the walls, or break the furniture

AGplusone: gracias

dwrighsr: I'll hang on until everybody's gone.

Pixelmeow: Bye david, that is.

AGplusone: Okay, see you all. Thanks for coming, and nice to be back.

n1yqh a: Would anybody who happens to have the story handy care to email or IM me any details in the story about a) the bombs, such as their size, and b) the bomb room (i.e. how many rows of how many weapons per row and any idea of spacing)....? I'm trying to figure out the neutron fluence to do that atmosphere calculation...

TAWN3: Bye David

Prnzofthvs: I mighht spill beer on the floor, though

Prnzofthvs: see you, David

Pixelmeow: I will spill beer if you keep talking like that, Steve!

Prnzofthvs: I'm not buying any keyboards; I'm saving my money for Mexico!

AGplusone: Thursday, May 25, 2000, 8:32:10 PM, PDT (nite)

dwrighsr: See you saturday. I should have the logs posted by tomorrow morning.

Prnzofthvs: Corona costs all of $1.30 a 6-pack down there, after all

Pixelmeow: :-) No buying keyboards, just replacing beer. I have my priorities, you know!

Pixelmeow: Wow, that's great!

Pixelmeow: Do you like Corona?

Lucylou98: room only had geiger counter,speaker on walkie talkie and the bombs

Prnzofthvs: yeah, I can kinda get into it, as long as Buffet's on the box

Pixelmeow: Hm, not into Buffet, but if I'm at the beach, I can do Corona.

Prnzofthvs: Got to see him in concert two summers ago

AGplusone has left the room.

Prnzofthvs: great show!

Pixelmeow: So, Lisa, the story doesn't say any more than that?

dwrighsr: I don't recall that he specified how many bombs there were, but there were quite a number

Prnzofthvs: I think he just mentioned two rows...

dwrighsr: Several dozen, I believe

n1yqh a: Any idea of physical size? "Beachball", "basketball", anything like that?

Pixelmeow: I wish I had the book here, I loved how he handled the guy in charge.

n1yqh a: Yeah, I'd love to reread it now, too bad I left it in MA when I came to CA... :-)

Prnzofthvs: I believe the fissionable material would have been about the size of a grapefruit

dwrighsr: My impression of the 'cores' was grapefruit size.

Prnzofthvs: don't know for sure, tho

Prnzofthvs: that may just be memory of HS science class material

Pixelmeow: Yes, I have the memory that the "core" was easily held in the hand. Weren't they also two halves of a sphere?

n1yqh a: "grapefruit sized" - okay, I'll go with that...

Prnzofthvs: had to be; when they collide, that's the big bang time

Pixelmeow: I remember something about "clapping" them together.

Prnzofthvs: two semi-spheres, perfectly matched.

Pixelmeow: Yes.

Prnzofthvs: a convential explosion slams them together, and bye bye

Pixelmeow: Where are the others? We seem to be the only ones talking...

Prnzofthvs: conventional, I mean

Pixelmeow: Yes, I know. :-)

n1yqh a: Sounds like a uranium gun-type (i.e. "Little Boy" - Hiroshime - or the Trinity shot).. Did it specify what the fissionable was?

Pixelmeow: Typos, and all

Prnzofthvs: alone at last! ;-)

Pixelmeow: :-D

Prnzofthvs: I don't remember

n1yqh a: My engineeringeese doesn't qualify as conversation, huh? ;-)

BPRAL22169: "Two hemispheres of plutonium"

Prnzofthvs: I have all my RAH's packed up already

Pixelmeow: You were part of that "we" up there!

dwrighsr: plutonium

n1yqh a: I dunno, I'd only count English, not Math, as conversation... :-)

Pixelmeow: I will be packing next week, for moving. Steve, when do you leave for Mexico?

Prnzofthvs: I know, Pix; you just can't resist me...

Pixelmeow: ;-)

Prnzofthvs: I plan to leave around the end of June, God willin' and the creek don't rise

BPRAL22169: He doesn't say the size of the "half-globes," but the critical mass is only about 14 lbs of very dense metal.

Prnzofthvs: anyone who wants to visit Cabo, get in touch with me!

Pixelmeow: Okay, I plan to be in No VA before then, let's schedule another meeting before you leave, with OJ and whoever else.

Prnzofthvs: I'll be "trailer trash" after I move, but you're welcome to come visit!

n1yqh a: I guess I'll pass you mid-country - I'm driving back from CA to MA the weekend of June 23-25.

Pixelmeow: Bill, can the critical mass be used to figure out the size of the sphere? Or does it matter, if you have that figure?

Prnzofthvs: Just let me know; I'm not working now - on "stress" leave until I retire.

Pixelmeow: Hey, Mike, that's great! Keep it in mind, wouldja? And you, Steve, and we'll let OJ know.

BPRAL22169: Yes - if you've got the density -- which has got to be something like 8 or 10 at least.

BPRAL22169: I seem to recall in FAT MAN AND LITTLE BOY they used something a little smaller than the average crystal ball.

Prnzofthvs: Is it possible for critical mass to be small - nad just produce a smaller explosion?

BPRAL22169: But it's a movie, no accuracy guaranteed.

Pixelmeow: So you can figure the size? 8 or 10 (goodness, I'm realizing how much I've forgotten) what?

BPRAL22169: No, critical mass is the smallest that can produce any explosion.

Pixelmeow: Oh that implies that the mass critical for explosion is such and so. Got it.

Prnzofthvs: I know that nuke-tipped artillery shells don't produce as large an explosion as a bomb dropped by plane, or an ICBM

BPRAL22169: I think the density figure is "times the density of water." Ordinary rock is something like 5.

TAWN3: I hope not, for the gunners sake

Prnzofthvs: smaller kill radius

dwrighsr: Remember, the gimmick RAH used in ST to get an explosion from less than critical mass?

n1yqh a: Yeah, density of 1 = 1 gram per cubic centimeter, which just happens to be the mass of water.

BPRAL22169: No -- what was it?

Lenjazz has entered the room.

n1yqh a: "tamper and implosion squeeze" o some such, right?

dwrighsr: He called it a 'tamper squeeze' or something like that

n1yqh a: Basically a neutron reflector around the fissile mass

Pixelmeow: I was thinking g/cm3, but it's been a while, and I thought I may not have it right.

Prnzofthvs: you are getting way too techie for me

BPRAL22169: You can do it by high-speed jamming the stuff together -- it's a function of neutron cross-section over time, IIRC, but I can't remember.

Pixelmeow: Mike, what did you just say?????

Prnzofthvs: <----Renaissance Man, not technically inclined! :-P

n1yqh a: Actually, in implosion weapons it's the increased density that makes it work,... They actually compress the Pu with high explosves...

Pixelmeow: The renaissance man was a jack of all trades, as you should know, Steve!!!!!

BPRAL22169: Right- the original Manhattan Project design.

Prnzofthvs: Okay, liberal arts renaissance man. Satisfied?

Pixelmeow: So, if you have less mass, but compress it, then you can get explosion?

n1yqh a: (so the Pu starts at whatever it is - 8 or 10 or whatever - and when it gets compressed to, say, 20 or so it goes critical)

Pixelmeow: Yes, Steve, that works. :-)

n1yqh a: no, the original design was a gun-type device where two hemispheres of uranium were smashed together at high scpeed, not an implosion device

Prnzofthvs: Danny DeVito didn't know Nucular fizzics, in the movie!

Pixelmeow: What movie???

Prnzofthvs: Renaissance Man

Pixelmeow: Ahem.

n1yqh a: Suprisingly enough, Tom Clancy has an excellent description of an implosion-type wqeapon in "The Sum of All Fears".

Pixelmeow: I was thinking of the "term", not the movie.

Prnzofthvs: teacher on the army boot camp base, remember?

n1yqh a: He left in a few minor inaccuracies, but for all reaonsable purposes, he's close enough.

Prnzofthvs: so was I, just in my own liberal arts way

Pixelmeow: I didn't see it. I don't get to see a lot, these days.

BPRAL22169: Wasn't one group working on the shaped charges problem for the spherical implosion?

Prnzofthvs: it's old, several years.

BPRAL22169: All these dim memories.

Prnzofthvs: Well, if you're all going to talk about hard SF stuff, and not the fuzzy science stuff....

n1yqh a: There must have been some work on the implosion type weapon, since Fat Man (the Nagasaki bomb) was one, but the original Trinity shot and Little Boy (Hiroshima) were uranium gun-type (IIRC - I'm sure about Fat Man and Little Boy, but I might be wrong about the Trinity shot)

Pixelmeow: Mike, Bill, I wondered if you had a small mass, could you then compress it until its density became some magical number, then you could have critical mass? Or does mass not change regardless?

BPRAL22169: I don't write hard sf -- i write easy sf.

n1yqh a: Mass doesn't change (i.e. conservation of mass)

Pixelmeow: That's what I thought. So I'm totally off on my guess?

n1yqh a: It's just that critical mass depends on things other than mass - such as density

Pixelmeow: If you squeeze mass, you get greater density.

Pixelmeow: But I guess you knew that...

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- in theory. "Critical mass" is the mass at which a certain flux of neutrons is available -- a critical value. if you can figure out some othe way of getting the neutron flux, you can get the same effect.

n1yqh a: So while critical mass for normal density might be, say, 20 kg, the critical mass for increased density might be, say 10kg.

Pixelmeow: Okay,......

Pixelmeow: I think I get that.

n1yqh a: Or if you slap a reflector around the thing (I don't know any good fast neutron reflectors off the top of my head, but graphite works wll on thermal neutrons like in a reactor) that also lowers the critical mass required.

n1yqh a: Basically avoidig losing any neutrons leaking out the sides

BPRAL22169: Or maybe if you shoot fast neutrons at it without compressing it. . .

Pixelmeow: So it's the neutrons that are important?

BPRAL22169: The inertial effect.

n1yqh a: (Fot anybody who's interested, I'll be teaching Introduction to Nuclear Engineering 101 as a Web-based course on Wednesday nights at 8pm on AIM.... ;-) )

BPRAL22169: Rememebr Donald Duck in Mathemagicland with the ping pong ball demoinstration? that's what the neutrons do.

Lucylou98: Can anyone take part in this nl?

Pixelmeow: The only Donald Duck + Science that I remember is the ping pong balls used to raise a sunken ship.

Pixelmeow: Lisa, what's a nl?

Prnzofthvs: I'd like to participate, Mike, but I don't think it will help me in the nursery business in Baja

BPRAL22169: you missed a classic -- they laid out a room completely filled (the floor) with moustraps loaded with pingpong balls. They tossed in one and within a second there were balls flying everywhere.

Lucylou98: That person ther....

TAWN3: 8 pm Eastern nlyqh?

n1yqh a: That was actually meant as a joke, but since I've got nothing better to do these days, anybody who's actually interested please email me and we'll work something out - I love to preach^H^H^H^H I mean "teach"...

Lucylou98: n1ygh a is who i meant

Pixelmeow: Bill, that sounds great

BPRAL22169: It was a really fund demo -- showed how powers of two mathematics makes nuclear fission work.

dwrighsr: Do you think that Dahlquist wouldn't have actually known that he was going to get a lethal dose by breaking up the bombs?

Lucylou98: If you preach, I will listen.

Pixelmeow: I wish I could see it! But yes, that does make sense. Sortof.

Prnzofthvs: you guys are way over my head here. I'll see ya all later.

BPRAL22169: I'm sur eyou can rent it from a library.

Pixelmeow: I think that Dalquist did indeed know just what he was in for.

Pixelmeow: Bye, Steve!

BPRAL22169: I don't think he was thinking about the radioactivity just then -- just what had to be done to prevent Tower from getting the bombs.

Prnzofthvs: how do I leave? just hit the "x" in the upper right corner?

dwrighsr: Well, he certainly seemed surprised, but I would have thought that he would have to have known.

Pixelmeow: Proly.

n1yqh a: I agree with, erm, I've forgotten your real name - BRPAL22169

Prnzofthvs has left the room.

Pixelmeow: Bill, Mike.

n1yqh a: Right, of course... sorry

Pixelmeow: That's okay, Tawn refuses to give a name, still.

TAWN3: what is the name of the Donald Duck film?

BPRAL22169: "Donald Duck in Mathemagicland."

TAWN3: Pixel, I am Tawn

TAWN3: Resistance is futile

TAWN3: you will be assimilated

BPRAL22169: You are, Number Six!

TAWN3: Yes!

Pixelmeow: ?????

TAWN3: I am not a number, I am a Free Man!

Lucylou98: oh no...thought it was number one

BPRAL22169: A reference to The Prisoner television show. Patrick McGoohan.

BPRAL22169: I am Number Two. Who is Number One. You are Number Six.

TAWN3: Great show!

Pixelmeow: ???

Pixelmeow: Have mercy, I'm so lost

TAWN3: Maybe the best ever made, although Babylon 5 ended up impressing the hell out of me despite a shaky start

TAWN3: meeeoooooow

Pixelmeow: Yes?

TAWN3: :-)

Pixelmeow: Only number one I remember is Riker, I don't know a number two or six...

TAWN3: nothing, just, meeeeeooooooow :-)

BPRAL22169: I believe The Prisoner has been released to video, hasn't it?

TAWN3: I'm sure it has

TAWN3: I used to have three copies

TAWN3: The PBS unedited ones

Lucylou98: Anyone know what the Astronef is?

TAWN3: The A&E better quality (had cable at th time) one

BPRAL22169: We just turned into pumpkins.

Pixelmeow: Yep.

BPRAL22169: It's run periodically on PBS fundraisers.

TAWN3: and then the ones the Sci Fi channel did in a marathon hosted by Harrlan Ellison

BPRAL22169: And people who have absolutely no idea what's going on in that show sit around afterwards and discuss it.

TAWN3: PBS episodes are 50 minutes long, and the best bet, if you have good reception

TAWN3: the original show was fifty min.

TAWN3: Other stations cut out or compress to 45 or less

BPRAL22169: Commercial stationshave only max 48 minutes of air time.

BPRAL22169: per hour slot, I mean.

Lucylou98: I'm off to look up stuff. have a good night

Lucylou98 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I do believe it's time for me to say good night as well.

BPRAL22169: Thanks for the talk, all.

Pixelmeow: Yeah, me too.

Lenjazz: Indeed. Later.

Pixelmeow: It was fun, glad to finally get into one!

TAWN3: Actually, years ago, on PBS, they filled in the empty last ten minutes of the hour with a Prof. of something from Toroto (?) Canada who gave a ten minute disssertation on each episode. But he was well worth listening to

n1yqh a: I should get off and eat and so forth too... see you guys sunday... :-)

Pixelmeow: See you guys on the group.....

Pixelmeow: Bye!

BPRAL22169: You can see what a tight, secretive group we all are?

TAWN3: I tried to find out who he was, failed. Never looked again

Pixelmeow has left the room.

n1yqh a has left the room.

TAWN3: but now with the web may be a good idea

BPRAL22169: That's where McGoohan lives, right?

Lenjazz has left the room.

TAWN3: There are lots of books, most collectible, sell on ebay, etc.

BPRAL22169: I have too many auctions to keep track of right now.

BPRAL22169: Well, g'night all. And flights of angels guide thee to thy rest.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

TAWN3: MacGoohans dead isn't he?

dwrighsr: Well, Tawn. looks we are the last two again.

TAWN3: Although it seems he made something not to long ago

TAWN3: Yes. I will say goodnight David!

TAWN3: Did you log it?

TAWN3: bye

TAWN3 has left the room.

dwrighsr: Log closed at 12:06 AM EDT Friday May 26,2000

Final End of Discussion Log

Click Here to Return to Index

Return to Index


  Join The Heinlein Society and Pay Forward the legacy of Robert A. Heinlein and Virginia Heinlein.
 
 

2001-2010 The Heinlein Society
3553 Atlantic Avenue, #341
Long Beach, CA 90807-5606

 
 

The Heinlein Society was founded by Virginia Heinlein on behalf of her husband, science fiction author Robert Anson Heinlein, to "pay forward" the legacy of Robert A. Heinlein to future generations of "Heinlein's Children."