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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday 05-11-2002 5:00 P.M. EDT

Glory Road

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

ddavitt has entered the room.

Paradis401 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Denis, I just got here

Paradis401: Me too. How are you?

ddavitt: I think Dave W is not here, just logging.

ddavitt: Fine but I will have to disappear to eat shortly

ddavitt: We just got back from shopping

Paradis401: Possible. I understand. You need your cheerios.

ddavitt: How are you?

Paradis401: I'm fine.

ddavitt: I'm starving, yes; all that spending takes it out of a gal:-)

Paradis401: I dislike shopping very much.

ddavitt: I see Ginny is online; is she up to dropping by?

DavidWrightSr: Hi guys

ddavitt: Depends on the sort; ours was groceries which can be tedious week in, week out

ddavitt: Hi Dave

Paradis401: I don't know. She may be napping. Hi Dave.

DavidWrightSr: I was napping myself

ddavitt: I could use a nap; Lauren had a shot yesterday and oh boy, I had a rough night with her. She got feverish and fretty

ddavitt: Full of lovely things like polio and diptheria; not surprising

Paradis401: It's not serious I hope?

ddavitt: David says my tea is ready so can you two take over for a bit?

ddavitt: No routine 18 month immunisation

ddavitt: Measles, mumps rubella is the nastiest; that one really stings as it goes in

ddavitt: Eleanor had it at 5 and still moans now and then about how cruel I was to make her have it

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: OK, back soon

ddavitt: Hi Kultsi, just going to eat

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Kultsi

KultsiKN: Hello, all!

Paradis401: OK. Have your tea. Have you heard from Ginny, David? Hi Kultsi.

DavidWrightSr: Talked with very briefly on Thursday

Paradis401: Not doing well?

DavidWrightSr: Still very tired she said

Copycat669 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi

DavidWrightSr: Tammy right?

Copycat669: Hello...yep, I'm Tam. :-)

KultsiKN: Hi, Tam!

DavidWrightSr: Welcome to the discussion. Not many here yet, but it will probably pick up

Paradis401: How do you keep all those names straight David?

DavidWrightSr: I usually don't.

Copycat669: Hiya. Be patient with me while I learn names. I've read a log of last chat, but I'm horrible with names. ;-) If anyone calls me Cat, I'll answer.

Paradis401: I'm Denis, Tam.

KultsiKN: My handle shouldn't be so difficult...

DavidWrightSr: Paradis is Dennis. KultsiKn is Kultsi from Finland, ddavit is Jane David who is away from keyboard for a moment

Copycat669: Jane, David, Denis, Kultsi. Is Denis french?

Paradis401: French and Amerindian.

DavidWrightSr: Editing the logs tends to help me remember sometimes

Copycat669: Nice to meet you all, btw...I'm not an intellectual when it comes to literature, but I very much enjoy Heinlein.

KultsiKN: Sorry, off for some time -- Dune the Mini Series on TV...

Paradis401: You qualify as a good friend/fan.

DavidWrightSr: Don't sweat it. I am definitely not the litrary type myself, just a long, long fan of RAH

Copycat669: so what book are we discussing today?

ddavitt: I'm back

DavidWrightSr: Glory Road

ddavitt: Hi everyone who arrived while I was munching

DavidWrightSr: You are already on the mailing list for notices aren't you Tam?

Paradis401: Is the Dune Series good, Kultsi?

DavidWrightSr: Or did you see my notice on AFH?

Copycat669: Ah. I thought that was last topic. :-) Darn. I just finished Fear No Evil and it ROCKED. Yes, I'm on the list, thanks. I'm glad to be.

ddavitt: We generally have two chats Tam so people get a chance who live outside US

ddavitt: Or who are busy.

DavidWrightSr: BRB. got to fix some sandwiches for self and wife

ddavitt: IWFNE usually gets a bad press; you'll have to write a post about it maybe?

ddavitt: Do you post to afh much?

Paradis401: Really? One of my favourites. IWFNE

Copycat669: I'm not sure how to do so. newsgroups are foreign to me. Email groups? Now THAT's my thing. :-) But I'll just eavesdrop on your Glory conversation and participate in the next one. :-)

ddavitt: Well, we were all here on Thursday; we can chat about IWFNE too

ddavitt: Newsgroups are eay but I don't know how to explain them exactly

ddavitt: When you start your browser you download them, pick which ones you want to subscribe to and then read them and reply as you wish. Or just lurk

ddavitt: There are literally thousands; I subscribe to about 4

ddavitt: Email groups I've tried but they flood your inbox and take longer to read and reply to somehow.

DennEditor has entered the room.

DennEditor: Howdy folks

ddavitt: Have you not read Glory Road then?

ddavitt: Hi Bill

Paradis401: Hi Bill.

ddavitt: It's a fun read with more to it than appears

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Will

DennEditor: I read Glory Road several months back. It struck me as juvenile male fantasy the first time 10 years ago. Now, it seems much deeper.

Paradis401: Hi Will.

geeairmoe2: Hello all.

ddavitt: Well, jumping right in, I have a question

Copycat669: I've not read Glory Road. I'm trying to collect the whole set of RAH's works.

ddavitt: H seemed to be criticising the materialsitic society of Oscar's earth

Paradis401: Bravo, Cat!

ddavitt: Go for it; takes a while but worth it

ddavitt: But what did he offer in return for those of us who aren't heroes?

DennEditor: I think RAH expressing the point of view a Vietnam Vet might be expected to have.

ddavitt: What viable alternative is there to the search for the 3 car garage and pool

Paradis401: A cottage in the forest?

ddavitt: War does tend to make you see things from a different POV

ddavitt: But is that so much better?

Paradis401: Yes. Peaceful.

ddavitt: Was it the inherent selfishness of modern life he deplored?

DennEditor: Living an hororable life. Oscar, nor any of RAH's heroes seemed afraid of living on the wrogn side of the tracks.

DennEditor: wrong side, I mean.

DennEditor: Look at the characters in Job.

geeairmoe2: Elements of every generation feels they live in boring times. Other eras had all the excitement.

ddavitt: No helping hand for a neighbour; his pool might end up with a higher diving board

DennEditor: Despite their poverty and problems, they were happy because they were together.

ddavitt: Grab and push and struggle...for junk as a prize

ddavitt: But the 'simple life' was not so much fun

DennEditor: No. It was hard work.

ddavitt: Look at the discussion with the time traveller in Beyond this Horizon

Copycat669: It seems that all of RAH

Copycat669: sorry

DennEditor: But they were not miserable, so to speak.

ddavitt: Go ahead Tam

Copycat669: It seems that all of RAH's characters had no materialism to them. :-)

DennEditor: They worked hard and had their self respect.

ddavitt: No need to wait; we all talk at once

Copycat669: I hit return too soon, that's all..:-)

DennEditor: They found ways to have fun and entertain themselves.

ddavitt: They didn't care much..but many of them were v wealthy

ddavitt: Like IWFNE; Johann was a billionaire

DennEditor: They BECAME wealthy

ddavitt: Yes; they strove for material worth

ddavitt: Why is it ok for Harriman but not us?

Copycat669: I mean, the best example I can give is the Howard Foundation. While all of them had the opportunity to be the best antique dealers around, all of them could leave or take wealth. And if you'll remember, Johann/Joan/Eunice wanted

Copycat669: to get RID of stuff

DennEditor: But Johann wasn't necessarily happy. He seemed just as Happy as Joan Eunice with Joe Bracca in his slum apartment

ddavitt: Only when death was imminent

Copycat669: He HATED being wealthy and at several points, he had to remind his "friends" that it would be OK if he lost everything.

ddavitt: Wealth brought him nothing but pain and betrayal from greedy family

ddavitt: But that was at the end; would he have felt that way at say, 50?

ddavitt: He was a H character who learned lesson very late in life

DennEditor: Remember, RAH grew up poor and achieved a measure of prosperity. He knows what he is talkign about.

ddavitt: And, ironically, it was his wealth that bought him that second chance

Copycat669: Look at the character in Citizen of the Universe. When he finds that he's a gazillionaire, he prefers the trader persona he was given between slave and wealthy man.

ddavitt: Thorby was uncomfortable with it, yes.

ddavitt: The Traders and the military taught him the lesson very early

Copycat669: Thorby! yes....couldn't remember the boy's name. Loved that book...

DennEditor: Great book, CotG

ddavitt: Ever read kipling's Kim? I think it's a dead ringer for that

Copycat669: nope. haven't. I should pick it up. :-)

ddavitt: Thorby valued his wealth as a weapon against slavery; that's allowed.

ddavitt: I recommend it:-)

ddavitt: He used it unselfishly

ddavitt: Like that woman, martha? In Jerry Was A Man

Copycat669: I think all of the wealthy characters viewed wealth as a tool, rather than a goal. Greed seems to be consistent only in the antagonists of RAH's books.

ddavitt: Starts out wasting it frivolously, then throws it behind crusade to free the apes

geeairmoe2: Things are weren't fighting for; good causes are.

ddavitt: We seem to have started a new topic!

DennEditor: Evan Lazarus Long ... tried to make a buck whenever he could, but only because it was a challenge. Seemed able to say "goodbye" to wealth at a moments notice.

Copycat669: he definitely has a Black Horse/White Horse theme running through all his books. The antagonists' black hats are greed, selfishness, politics....:-) Even the politicians of Moon is a Harsh Mistress didn't WANT to be politicians.

ddavitt: Yes; but he ended up richer than anyone

Copycat669: Politics was a means to the end which was freedom.

Paradis401: I'm interested in that Jumping over the Sword deal in GR. Seems to be a recurring theme.

ddavitt: Freedom..probably THE Heinlein theme

Copycat669: Lazarus was wealthy only by default. Live as long as he did, and I think you can't help it. :-)

ddavitt: It's a skill to be learned I suppose

DennEditor: Maybe that's WHY he became rich ... that and the fact he was able to accumulate so much in his long life.

ddavitt: In 23 centuries, you can learn most things

Copycat669: so how does freedom factor in to Glory Road?

ddavitt: Except singing

Copycat669: Give me the basic plot, will ya?

ddavitt: Oscar got freedom to do what he wanted, not what society expected

ddavitt: Oh..hang on then

DennEditor: I agree freedom is the Heinlein theme

ddavitt: He's fresh from jungle war

geeairmoe2: Oscar wanted a cause worth fighting for.

ddavitt: Sees ad in paper; hero wanted

Paradis401: Oscar and Star Pledge themselves over the sword. Alternative to marriage?

ddavitt: Next thing he's on a quest wiht beautiful woman, strong fighter

ddavitt: Looking for the Phoenux Egg

ddavitt: spelling

DennEditor: Phoenix

DennEditor: ;-)

Copycat669: parallel to Puppet Masters, eh? Only minus the Old Man.

ddavitt: Get it, go back to star's world, has everything..gets bored

ddavitt: sets out on Glory road again

ddavitt: I know how to spell it!! Fingers and Eleanor is bothering me

DennEditor: yeah ... sure ;-)

ddavitt: She is huffing at me now. darm these kids learning to read

Paradis401: :-D

DennEditor: "darm" ? ;-)

ddavitt: :-)this is from her

Paradis401: :-P

ddavitt: I expect all my friends to mind read when it comes to my typos

ddavitt: I am two fingered and can't touch type

ddavitt: If you want it fast, you get typos

DennEditor: Now you know how I feel

ddavitt: Puppet masters...not quite the same plot.

Paradis401: We understand and sympathize, Jane.

Copycat669: I'm an editor rl. hehehe. I don't see typos. :-)

ddavitt: You must be able to type though?

ddavitt: I spot them in books all the time

DennEditor: "Copycat" ? I should have known. Where do you work?

DavidWrightSr: Two editors. wow we are lucky. O:-)

ddavitt: It's a neat punny sort of nickname. Copy is what goes into a paper isn't it?

DavidWrightSr: I am an editor too, but only of discussion logs :-)

ddavitt: # editoes..we need Bill P to make 4

ddavitt: Aargh

Copycat669: I used to work for the methodist church. That's some really NASTY editing. Now I freelance for local author wannabes. :-) It's in my blood. I do mostly advertising, PR, and other authoring for a local company now. But I'm lookin

DavidWrightSr: But DennEditor is a newspaper editor, right?

ddavitt: 4 editors

geeairmoe2: Once upon a time I was sports editor of a small bi-weekly.

Copycat669: i've done newspaper editing. Talk about THANKLESS

ddavitt: I have never edited anything I didn't write myself.

DennEditor: Yup. Peoria Times-Observer. 17,000 weekly circulation.

Copycat669: Marion Times for me...

Copycat669: Little town paper. :-)

DennEditor: Thankless is RIGHT.

DennEditor: Marion, Ill.?

Copycat669: iowa

DennEditor: oh. That was close.

DennEditor: I have worked all over Illinois and Missouri.

geeairmoe2: Copperas Cove (TX) Leader-Press.

DavidWrightSr: That would have been too much coincidence. BTW did anybody notice RAH's error with respect to 'stars and stripes'?

Copycat669: Just iowa for me. And the most legitimate job I held was with the Methodist Church. The doctrine finally got to me and I had to quit.

Copycat669: no....what's the error

ddavitt: in GR?

DennEditor: I have left the press more than once. Journalism is a dirty habit, but I am hooked.

DavidWrightSr: At least when I was in the Army, I don't recall any adds in it. but maybe I am misremembering

DennEditor: What error?

DennEditor: I don't think the ad in Glory Road was in Stars and Stripes. Or was it? hmmmm

ddavitt: Oh, the paper mentioned in GR

DavidWrightSr: Yep, I believe he saw it there also

Copycat669: What's stars and stripes? I was kicked out of the army after only 7 weeks so i have no clue...

ddavitt: That he gets whilst in Nice with the Herald Tribune

DavidWrightSr: S&S is army paper

ddavitt: So he had it delivered?

DennEditor: Coincidence? in alt.fan.heinlein, I have met many people who have lived in Central Illinois.

DennEditor: Tian Harter went to school in Peoria. Several regulars spent time at Chanute AFB in Rantoul where I used to live. ...

geeairmoe2: My memory of S&S is hazed by 30 years, (I was 10, Army brat, read the comics and sports). Don't recall ads.

DavidWrightSr: Mine was 30 years ago too, but I don't recall ads nor comics for that matter

DavidWrightSr: Sorry 40 years ago

ddavitt: Star could do that...but I got the impression the ad is in the Herald Trib

Copycat669: so RAH says there was an ad in S&S in Glory Road? Perhaps that's his statement about how things changed...

ddavitt: After all; why would the S and S have personals about romantic set ups?

Copycat669: REmember um.....was it in Revolt? Where they had the psychobabble specialists who designed media for optimum mind control?

ddavitt: Gottit

ddavitt: He reads the ad THEN walks over to buy the S and S

DennEditor: International Herald Trib, as I recall for the fateful ad.

ddavitt: And finds the ad there too...

DavidWrightSr: Ah Ha.

ddavitt: Then he gets a letter with the ad in it and gets mad

Copycat669: if other media could be used to promote Patriotism and Loyalty to the "Government", then why not advertise in the Military Publication? Is it a statement he's making perhaps?

ddavitt: and goes to rue Dante

ddavitt: Dante...clue there maybe?

DennEditor: I am a big fan of the Original New York Herald-Tribune. Staryted careers of Jimmy Breslin, Homar Bigart, Art Buchwald, Tom Wolfe, etc

ddavitt: It's Star magic I think

ddavitt: She could have put a doctored copy in that shop just for him

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Denv.

DennEditor: If he is out of the military, living in France ... what is he doing with Stars and Stripes?

ddavitt: We are discussing GR

DenvToday: Hello Jane. Hi everybody!

DennEditor: Howdy!

DavidWrightSr: He was used to reading it so he picked up a copy.

ddavitt: He buys it to see if he's going to get benefits; to keep up with the nesw

DennEditor: Where? Do they sell it off Army bases?

ddavitt: He buys it in Nice so they must

Copycat669: Keep in mind that this is HEINLEIN"s world. Maybe they do in his world.

ddavitt: From a kiosk, not even an importer

DennEditor: ok, ok

ddavitt: We get UK papers in canada; price of them, printed in gold leaf and several days late of course

DavidWrightSr: Good question, I don't know. I never saw them outside of bases myself, but then I wasn't looking.

Copycat669: I dont' find it so difficult to believe, when I can get most any publication from the internet now. I can also get real life papers from 10 major cities in the US here in Cedar Rapids, Iowa at a special newstand.

ddavitt: Doid anyone feel disappointed that the magic turned out not to be?

Copycat669: man, i need to get my hands on glory road, it seems

ddavitt: That pentacles and all were science not 'real' magic?

ddavitt: You'll enjoy it, trust us:-)

DenvToday: Who was it that said that magic is simply science we don't understand yet?

DavidWrightSr: Clarke

ddavitt: I dunno...but I want real magic (if that's not an oxymoron)

ddavitt: Clarke did the 'advanced society, science is indistinguishable from magic' which is true

Copycat669: um...The day after tomorrow...

Copycat669: I believe it was Ardmore

ddavitt: I want the disappearing food from magic Inc..that turns out to be morally corrupt when jake wants it in NOTB

Copycat669: NOTB?

ddavitt: Number of the Beast

DavidWrightSr: Not disappearing food, just disappearing calories :-)

Copycat669: gotta get that one too...:-)

ddavitt: We use acronyms a lot

ddavitt: Saves time and typing<g>

DenvToday: Alternate worlds. What seems like magic to us is simply normal physics in an alternate universe. And quantum physics shows us that alternate universes are very possibly real.

ddavitt: especially with a continua device

Copycat669: i know. I've got over 22 of the books right now, but if i've not read it, i don't usually recognize it. I appreciate your patience with me.

ddavitt: which is what they universe hop with in NOTB, Tam

DavidWrightSr: Amazing that you should mention that Denv. I said exactly that in a paper I submitted to Bill.

ddavitt: No; I should apologise for using terms you might not know

DennEditor: Yeah, but do the physics in these other universes allow for carbon-based life? ANy life at all?

ddavitt: Force of habit

KultsiKN: K! I'm back

ddavitt: So am I:-)

DenvToday: David, James Hogan has written several excellent non-fiction essays on that subject. He explains it all so clearly.

Copycat669: actually....in Revolt, they "create" magic as well. Do we have another recurring attitude theme? The debunking of magic?

ddavitt: We're looking at magic in GR turning out not to be

ddavitt: Could be..

DavidWrightSr: I Like Hogan. one of the few newer writers I do like

DavidWrightSr: Although he is not that new now.

DennEditor: Well, we know the universe began with a band and will collapse. Perhaps alternate universes are this process happening over and over again.

ddavitt: But Heinlein wrote v sympathetically about mind power; telepathy especially

Copycat669: Someone sent me a link to a place where you can exchange RAH books. Anybody remember that site?

ddavitt: But made it scientific in Time For The Stars

ddavitt: Yes, I helped invent it

KultsiKN has left the room.

DennEditor: Copy, are you thinking of "Sixth Column"?

DavidWrightSr: There is that quote in Between Planets about all worlds being possible.

geeairmoe2: I need that packing box in GR that just keeps unpacking and unpacking. If I could fit all my junk into one small box ...

ddavitt: Hang on I'll get addie

DavidWrightSr: Sixth Column is the same as The Day After Tomorrow.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Duh!

Copycat669: yes....that's the orginal title. Mine is "New" having been published in 1949. heeheh

DennEditor: Of course.

ddavitt: http://rahbooks.virtualave.net/

Copycat669: yay! thank you!

geeairmoe2: 'Revolt' is the one where the religious dictatorship is overthrown. Similar stories.

ddavitt: No problem; use it if you need to; that's why it's there

DennEditor: just ignore the opo-up ad ... it caused quite a stir in a.f.h.

ddavitt: Only a few books had different titles

DennEditor: pop-up ad ....

ddavitt: I have Space Family Stone rather than Rolling Stones

DennEditor: d'oh

ddavitt: I did as Teresa suggested and got a free pop up killer; working well

ddavitt: You zap em once and it remembers and adds them to a kill file

DennEditor: Opo up killers can keep browsers from opening up legitimate links on some web sites.

ddavitt: They're a pain all over the net

DennEditor: POP-UP killers ....grrrrrrrrrr

KultsiKN: That's a good strategy, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Jane do the pop-up killers kill the ad at the top of the archived logs?

ddavitt: Well, you can disengage it

Copycat669: Actually, in both Day After Tomorrow/6th Column, AND Revolt, there is a religious dictatorship that is defeated with scientific "magic"

DenvToday: One aspect of the characters you see in GR is a running theme in RAH, namely that people are not always what they seem. Rufio seems like a common, brutihs character. Amusing, but not terribly impressive. We slowly learn...

DennEditor: If a link is set up to open in a new browser winder, some popup killers will prevent you from using them

DenvToday: ...he is a famous, accomplished scientist, Star's most trusted advisor.

ddavitt: Can't remember. Not if it's just there, only those irritating ones that open and stop you doing stuff

KultsiKN: So right, Ron

DennEditor: In Sixth Column, the dictatorship is foreign .... from Asia, I believe

ddavitt: And her grandson. That was funny

DavidWrightSr: Not quite Tam, in Sixth Column, they used religion to hide their science against non religious invaders, the Pan Asians

Copycat669: True...but in both stories, the "magic" was actually science. So I'm stretching my point...hey, i'm a newbile. :-) or is that newbie? :-)

ddavitt: And some of the people who were in on the secret converted to it

DavidWrightSr: Tripod, where the logs are used to have pop-ups, but they gave me the option to have it embed, so I was wondering. That's ok Tam, we are tolerant :-)

geeairmoe2: Title warning. 'The Day After Tomorrow' is the title of a movie soon going into production. Its NOT Heinlein, its about global warming.

Copycat669: that killed me. I loved it.

ddavitt: That's the power of religion i guess

ddavitt: Really? That would have given me a shock

Copycat669: You've never worked in the heart of a church, then, I take it? Muahahahhahaah

ddavitt: lapsed Catholic at 14

DennEditor: "New bile" that's what happens to me whenever CryoRandy posts in A.f.h. ...

ddavitt: too young to be involved

ddavitt: Heh heh

KultsiKN: LOL, Bill!

ddavitt: I'm just ignoring him and Reilloc; seems to work

DennEditor: I managed to solve my Web space ad problem by actually paying for Web site hosting. It costs $70 a year.

DavidWrightSr: I have 5 names for CryingRandy in my killfile as well as reilloc

KultsiKN: I k-fed both.

ddavitt: I'm in too may contentious thread on the Buffy group; i need peace

DavidWrightSr: Saves a lot of stress.

DennEditor: I put both those losers in my killfile long time ago. Just people keep responding, giving them what they want.

DenvToday: Dean, anytime you can solve an annoying problem for 70 bucks per year, you've made an excellent investment.

ddavitt: Big effort not to reply, then it gets easier and this strange serenity flows over you as they ran into a brick wall

ddavitt: strange

DenvToday: Denn, that is. sorry.

ddavitt: So; quick poll

DennEditor: OK. I was wonder who in the heck "Dean" was. lol

Copycat669: i have a hard time sitting on my fingers when it comes to verbal idiots, myself.

DavidWrightSr: Well, if anyone wants to pay for web space for the archives, I'll be happy to move them, I would do it myself, but we are saving up for my second son's wedding :-)

DennEditor: We voting someone off the chat room?

ddavitt: Who would've been happy living as Star's gogolo and not gone back on the GR?

ddavitt: No, silly:-)

Paradis401: Sorry I've been away for awhile. I'll catch up. Ginny sends her regards and regrets to y'all. Gone to bed now.

ddavitt: Gigolo

ddavitt: Tell her hi from me and lots of love

DennEditor: gogolo? If you mean "gigolo" I vote "me."

Paradis401: Will do.

Copycat669: Ginny heinlein joins us here?

DenvToday: How is Mrs. Heinlein's health these days?

ddavitt: I type, press send look up and see these horrendous spelling mistakes

ddavitt: She does, yes

DavidWrightSr: Go Go Gigolo, yeah man!

Copycat669: *is not worthy* Takes a moment of silence.

ddavitt: Very honoured to have her

DennEditor: Yes, Copy. She is often posts in a.f.h. too.

KultsiKN: Yes, indeedy, we are.

Paradis401: I will tell her. It means a lot to her.

ddavitt: We miss her on the chats.

KultsiKN: It's hard on her.

geeairmoe2: Tell her Happy Mother's Day from her 'children'.

ddavitt: I hesitate to Im her; i worry that she's chatting to someone or it will involve her in an effort she's too polite to avoid

DenvToday: I'm a newcomer to the group, but I feel as if I've known her for years through the RAH non-fiction stuff and through Tramp Royale.

DavidWrightSr: Yes, she adds a lot even when she doesn't say much.

KultsiKN: Chat I mean -- she's losing her eyesight

DennEditor: I will be back soon.

DennEditor has left the room.

ddavitt: OK

ddavitt: Ticky was such a lot of fun to read about

DavidWrightSr: That's why we tell people to bold their text when she is here.

KultsiKN: Yup

ddavitt: I still get thrills at the thought that I have had the chance to talk to her here and in email. One of those very special people you meet in life so rarely.

Copycat669: You know how sometimes at parties, you're asked who you'd like to have dinner with? Well Robert Heinlein sits right next to Jesus and Paul McCartney.

KultsiKN: LOL, Tam!

Paradis401: With Ginny, of course.

ddavitt: Heh..good thread that would make

Copycat669: To chat with his wife would really really make my day. I'll look forward to seeing her, hopefully when we discuss a book i've actually read.

DenvToday: Jesus probably only ate kosher food. You'd have to make a note to the chef.

geeairmoe2: But Jesus could whip up some fish and bread if the food gets scarce.

Copycat669: Paul's a vegan too. The menu would be eclectic. We'd probly just order out.

DenvToday: rofl Good point!

geeairmoe2: Wine, too.

Copycat669: ANYWAY! hehehe. I wanna know who'd be a gigolo even though I'm not completely up on the story...

DavidWrightSr: That would make a good philosophical question. Are Vegans vegans?

DenvToday: Are Vegas Las Vegans?

DenvToday: Vegans

ddavitt: He wins his prize; unlimited wealth and happiness but it's not enough, even with the woman he loves thrown in

KultsiKN: Ennui

ddavitt: He has no job now; he's useless

ddavitt: Exactly Kultsi

DavidWrightSr: But he wasn't happy that was the point. No purpose left

ddavitt: But Star says a Frenchman would enjoy it

DennEditor has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: And she couldn't leave her job at the office. O:-)

DennEditor: back.

DenvToday: But he doesn't give it a decent chance. If Star offered herself to me, I'd give it 15-20 years, then reconsider at that time.

Paradis401: Ennui cannot be properly translated to English. At least I can't.

DennEditor: My mother had to check her e-mail ...

geeairmoe2: Whether a husband or a gigolo, it would depend on who the woman was.

Copycat669: a sort of boredom...only more pleasant.

KultsiKN: But Oscar's a twisted 'murrican, so he can't make it...

DenvToday: Why has nobody offered me that kind of boredom? Why, Oh Lord?

ddavitt: When you're too bored to have the energy to care about it

geeairmoe2: The question isn't status, its avoidance of boredom.

ddavitt: Or too apathetic to move out of that ray of sunshine that's right in your eyes

ddavitt: total soul sickness of life

Paradis401: Closest I can come to ennui is heart/homesick.

KultsiKN: It takes one Rufo to shake ya...

ddavitt: That's more positive an emotion IMO; that implies yearning

ddavitt: Ennui is past any goal

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of Rufo, I can't help but picture our Dr. Rufo on AFH the same way as Rufo in the book.

Paradis401: Mother use to claim ennui all the time, my father said he didn't know what it meant.

ddavitt: But, it might not translate the same ,shrug>

KultsiKN: Oscar ain't got the distance from it yet; he needs to go home first and see things

DenvToday: I had Danny Devito in my mind for Rufo in GR. Am I strange?

ddavitt: It's not a nice feeling.

Paradis401: :-[

ddavitt: No,him or Bob Hoskins seemd to be favourite

DenvToday: Hoskins would be excellent.

DennEditor: Lets take inventory: Star is the most beautiful, well-built woman on Earth. She will never get old. She is rich. She doesn't really object to letting the man in her life have sex with other woman. Hmmm. What should I do?

DenvToday: Did RAH have Sancho Panza in mind for Rufo?

ddavitt: If we're at a casting thread that's ominous

KultsiKN: Bob Hoskins' face is too innocent, I think.

Copycat669: Ennui according to Merriam Webster: a feeling of weariness and dissatisfaction.

DennEditor: The actor chosen for Ruffo need not be short. Look at the casting for LOTR.

Copycat669: Does anyone have any comments on the open sexuality of Heinlein's worlds?

ddavitt: Some words you have a definition in your head in a perfect festalt..but you can't express it in words

DavidWrightSr: Neither fit my idea of Rufo. Old from the neck up, but kept young and fit from the neck down.

ddavitt: gestalt

DennEditor: I am in favor it it, Copy.;-)

ddavitt: That's another theme, Tam

ddavitt: As a young teen it sounded cool.

Paradis401: Travolta miniaturized for Rufo.

ddavitt: Now I'm more, oh, who cares?

Copycat669: David, that's Lazarus Long at the beginning of Time enough for Love

KultsiKN: Can't we say that RAH was ahead of his times.

DavidWrightSr: But as a Mother with young daughters ? :-D

DennEditor: No. Not travolta. Nicholas Cage? perhaps Bruce Willis?

DenvToday: Not only can we, we must. He was.

ddavitt: That's probably why; i see what it leads to

ddavitt: :-)

Paradis401: Please don't despair Jane. We will improve.

ddavitt: I meant sex....kids...too tired for sex

Copycat669: I guess I think it's a matter of morality. Society shapes our morality. Look at what we put up with nowadays that our great gramps would shudder at. I like the concept of open loving. Especially in the serial marriage concept.

ddavitt: Bad progression followed by..they leave home...too old for sex

Copycat669: but i'm not willing to allow it for my kids...hehehe. :-)

ddavitt: But H said great gramps wouldn't have shuddered in private; would have been doing them too

ddavitt: remember when he was born 1907

DennEditor: I have a sneaking feeling our "great gramps" were gettin' in on a lot more than they let on.

DavidWrightSr: I think RAH was aware that real life hadn't and wouldn't change. What changed was the 'openess' to talk about it

ddavitt: He was as ol as my grandfather

Copycat669: I suppose. I doubt that my Grams had multiple sex in 1914, but I do know she had a child by a man she wasn't married to. :-)

DennEditor: Are we really more open?

ddavitt: People don't change much.

DavidWrightSr: Although, I recall my Grandma saying 'Ben never touched me except to do his duty' =-O

ddavitt: Rape and pillage becomes rioting soccer fans..

KultsiKN: Yes, we are, and our kids are more open still.

Copycat669: I think that we aren't. If I were to bring up bestiality, people would cringe. But if i said that my husband and I did threesomes often, it would be sexy. Society determines what we can be open aobut.

ddavitt: My great aunt had to put ointment on her husband in the bath; he wore shorts while she did it

DennEditor: It's a different type of puritanism, I think.

geeairmoe2: I have brothers 12 years younger and they'll discuss things in public I wouldn't.

ddavitt: My husband and I wander round the house naked without a thought. Ahem When it's just us and the girls that is.

Copycat669: Homosexuality, Promiscuity, Creative Sexuality, are all socially acceptable. But certain sexual practices aren't.

Copycat669: and by socially acceptable, i mean fashionable.

ddavitt: But there's a newsgroup for all of 'em now.

Copycat669: LOL Davitt

ddavitt: progress?

Copycat669: Jane, i mean. I'll learn

ddavitt: I'm not joking either...some of the names made me blush or feel ill

DenvToday has left the room.

Paradis401: RAH was futuristic in his ideas thoroughout his life. Very advanced.

ddavitt: Jane is fine, ddavitt is fine too

KultsiKN: A friend of mine, a young lady, openly tells me about her sexual adventures.

DavidWrightSr: There are always going to be 'in' things and 'out' things. In that article for Bill, I mentioned, I talk about a character in a story of deCamp's where the hero is arrested on a beach not for going nude, but for not covering up his belly button.

ddavitt: 'hey you' not so good in this set up :-)

ddavitt: Ankles once were incredibly sexy for the Victorians

Copycat669: That sounds like a Heinlein world..:-)

ddavitt: Forbidden fruit...now nothing is so we cover up bits tantalisingly instead

DavidWrightSr: L. Sprague DeCamp, 'The Wheels of If'

DavidWrightSr: What do you mean were. Still are to me, but I am just barely out of the Victorian age.

ddavitt: Wasn't it Fear No Evil where they said a g string is sexier than nudity?

ddavitt: nonsense!

Paradis401: Really. I think a G string is more interesting.

KultsiKN: A bit of clothes is always sexier than total nudity...

ddavitt: You are same age as my mum; she'd slap you for saying that

Copycat669: yes. and the description of Eunice painted as teh mermaid turned me on!

Copycat669: and I'm a WOMAN!

KultsiKN: Which is sexy as well ;-)

Paradis401: Exactly!

ddavitt: Body paint seemed like a lot of trouble first thing in the morning

ddavitt: But would have been cool for parties

ddavitt: The mermaid one with the nubbly shells was v intriguing

KultsiKN: I've got some very interesting body paint pics.

DavidWrightSr: There was a recent ad in computer magazines where you couldn't tell if a person had on a bathing suit or whether it was painted on.

Copycat669: I openly resist eyeshadow. Body paint would suck on me. But to see it, well, that's something I'd like to do before I die.

ddavitt: Tam; did you think Eunice was black or white?

DenvToday has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: WB Denv.

DenvToday: Thanks.

ddavitt: Just wondered what impression you got from the book?

ddavitt: As it's one of those frequently debated topics

Copycat669: Wow, Jane. Great question. I'm not sure. But I think she was white because she describes her complexion after joe's meticulous standards of cleaning as "creamy"

Paradis401: I thought Eunice was nicely coloured - by Joe.

ddavitt: Apparently H wrote it with two photos of lovely women in front of him; one black one white

ddavitt: But she may have been black.

Copycat669: well...and coffee can have cream in it....:-)

ddavitt: This would have added to the 'shock factor' in 1970

ddavitt: But it was very subtle if so

Copycat669: POV has a lot do with it too. I'm white. I envision myself as Eunice. :-) A prettier version, anyway.

ddavitt: The other character is Rod from Tunnel in the Sky

DavidWrightSr: Color is always in the eyes of the beholder. Without it being obvious, I always thought of his characters as white. Lingering traces of racism.

Paradis401: Socially speaking - RAH was colourblind. Very advanced man.

ddavitt: true, I did too, i think. I thought of her as a brunetter fro the colours she wears in clothes

Copycat669: I agree. Where that is concerned, I sheepishly admit to being biased that way as well.

ddavitt: natural to identify with hero

DenvToday: RAH was fond of that. Podkayne and Tunnel in the Sky are proof of that.

ddavitt: brb

DenvToday: I was about to use the acronym for Tunnel in the Sky, then thought better of it. lol

Paradis401: :-D

Copycat669: I escape into books. When I'm working on a book, it's not odd for me to be in a trance with my nose in a book, and then use a phrase like Roz or Grok soon after "returning" to the Real World.

DavidWrightSr: I still have trouble emotionally accepting that Rod was not white, because his and Carolyn's relationship had a lot to do with my thinking on racism.

DennEditor: Yeah, that could have caused a tittering of laughter.

DennEditor: *ahem*

DenvToday: <rimshot>

DavidWrightSr: Punners, get you hence to an Asimov discussiion 8-)

KultsiKN: <duct tape>

DenvToday: lol

Copycat669: *enjoying this very very much*

DennEditor: You are all jealous that *I* thought of it first.

DavidWrightSr: Am I still alone in thinking that Sam Beaux was not black?

KultsiKN: P~~~~

ddavitt: I go away to get lauren some milk and woosh, the conversation plunges punwards

Copycat669: SAM BEAUX! Oh my....

ddavitt: Yes you are.

ddavitt: More puns..sigh

geeairmoe2: Now that the talk of sex has died down, I'll chance breaking for some supper. I'll try to rejoin later. Happy Mother's Day to all the mommies.

ddavitt: H was wicked

ddavitt: Thank you:-)

Paradis401: Was Sam not Black?

ddavitt: But not as much as in Star Beast

DavidWrightSr: Well, think about it. wasn't all of that just a little too racist for RAH?

KultsiKN: About time to take ten?

DenvToday: See you then!

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

ddavitt: Sure, we can break

ddavitt: But I will have to leave for good once L has had her bottle; bath time is nigh

DavidWrightSr: For those who are in the dark (no pun intended), I have this theory that Marshall Sam Beaux is indeed not black.

DenvToday: It's past midnight for you, isn't it Jane?

Paradis401: RAH was never racist. Never, never.... he hated racism as much as stipidity and slavery.

ddavitt: Have you read Star Beast Tam?

ddavitt: No, 6.30 pm

ddavitt: Ontario

Copycat669: But I think that you can be "not racist" on different levels

KultsiKN: Not for Jane; for me, yes.

ddavitt: Hero is john Thomas

DenvToday: Oh...sorry, I keep thinking you're in the UK

Copycat669: and society again helps define what racism is.

Copycat669: nope...still trying to get Starbeast

DavidWrightSr: RAH goes to a lot of trouble to describe his 'blackness', but it is all in his uniform and name. He is never described as being black himself and there is the problem with Richard being the same color.

ddavitt: Great joke about going away to raise John thomas's that H slipped in over Alice Dalgleish's editorial eye

DenvToday: Yes, I've read about that one. lol

Copycat669: Wait a Menit! I DO have starbeast

ddavitt: I didn't get it despite having read lady Chatterly' Lover

ddavitt: And being English.

ddavitt: If you're not expecting it, it slides past as an innocent coincidence

DavidWrightSr: I never did get it until it was pointed out. But we never used that term in my neighborhood

ddavitt: More of a Uk term maybe

KultsiKN: Nor mine ;-)

Copycat669: OMG. How freaky. You are right. It slipped right past me.

DenvToday: Mr. Johnson pointed it out to me.

Paradis401: Maybe you have something there, David. RAH was great at puzzles.

Copycat669: I guess I should read Lady chatt's lover, too. What is it about that that is so funny?

DennEditor: Heh heh Denv.

ddavitt: John Thomas's ringed round with flowers is a very funny bit.

DavidWrightSr: Better IM her Jane, so I want have to edit the log for the kids who read it :-)

ddavitt: It wasn't a shocking book for the sex so much as the social and class boundaries that were crossed

ddavitt: Lady C having a raging affair with the gamekeeper is one thing; leaving her husband for him..tut tut

ddavitt: But John thomas is a slang expression for penis..raising JT's takes on a whole new meaning

ddavitt: when lummox wants to breed her pets

Copycat669: OMG!! ROFLMAO!

ddavitt: Yes, i did that too when it came up, er got mentioned on afh

Paradis401: Jane, I never thought of that. JT. You are sharp!

DenvToday: It was hard for me to accept.

KultsiKN: ROTFLMAO

ddavitt: Not me; it got pointed out by someone

Copycat669: See, that's what got me the most. Lummox, the pet, was actually the master. I think my Cat is on the level of Lummox

ddavitt: i'm dim and dense

Paradis401: Here we go again! :-D

ddavitt: we all know that feeling

ddavitt: We pretty much all have cats here I think

DenvToday: Me too Jane. I sometimes feel so thick.

DennEditor: *resist*urge*to*make*bad*puns

Paradis401: Yes. Lots of cats and puns.

ddavitt: I didn't get the anagrams in NOTB, I found out THIS WEEK about Bertie and Betty in Oz...duh

ddavitt: I need to read the books again MORE CAREFULLY

DennEditor: What is that, Jane?

Copycat669: And the idea that we are all living in an ant farm of some higher being is something I've put a lot of thought in on....What's the Bertie and Betty in Oz?

ddavitt: But I start to and get carried away by the story

DavidWrightSr: It took me 25 years to realize that 'tanstaafl' was really 'TANSTAAFL' an acronym, even though it was spelled out for me in the book.

ddavitt: Bertie and Betty they meet on mars 10, then on OZ they bump into a couple with similar names

DavidWrightSr: I was glad to find that others had thought the same as I did.

ddavitt: I assumed they were bonafide OZ characters; turns out not

ddavitt: I was puzzled by it too david; not just you

ddavitt: Thye are analogs of the mars 10 couple

KultsiKN: Never read the OZ books...

DavidWrightSr: However, that led to my 'great thought'. So much of Heinlein depends on 'unconscious assumptions'.

ddavitt: Like iake in the world without a J

ddavitt: I have the first 12 or so,some are good, others not

ddavitt: I got the later ones because H mentioned them

ddavitt: I read them as a child but not all in print then, just 3 or 4

ddavitt: Read the Barsoom books because of NOTB too

Copycat669: I think it's phenomenal how one author influences another.

ddavitt: Oh, yes!

ddavitt: And i read jerome K jerome because of have Space Suit

DavidWrightSr: We've had several authors here as guest who were greatly influenced by RAH.

ddavitt: Three men in A Boat and the can opener

KultsiKN: found that book in a SA thrift shop recently.

ddavitt: Joel Rosenberg, poul Anderson, Robert Crais...Larry Niven, Jerry pournelle, L Smith..did I miss anyone?

KultsiKN: Haven't read it.

ddavitt: Great book; very funny. And the sequel and his other works

DenvToday: Spider Robinson

ddavitt: No, as guests here I mean

Paradis401: Tom Clancy

DenvToday: Oh, I see. lol

ddavitt: Nut yes, Spider, big fan

Copycat669: a friend's trying to get me to read spider robinson. but i have arachnophobia

ddavitt: BUT I meant but

KultsiKN: Appears on a.f.h. occasionally

ddavitt: Heh..they don't get mentioned past the title page

Copycat669: I'm being facetious. I have little faith in any book written after I was born.

DenvToday: The entire "libertarian" win of SF views RAH as their guru.

ddavitt: Which was....?

DenvToday: wing

ddavitt: I was 38 on Tuesday

DenvToday: Happy Birthday!

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: Thank you:-)

Paradis401: But Robert was not a libertarian.

DenvToday: Dave, hello!

ddavitt: Hi AG

KultsiKN: Jane! Many happy returns!

Paradis401: Hi AG

DenvToday: Perhaps not, but he edged toward it near the end.

AGplusone: [Hi, all ... please go on. I'll catch up]

ddavitt: I am not bothered by 38; 40 might need some intensive therapy

Copycat669: I'll be 33 in a month or so. But Koontz and King give me many headaches. but i read them to have intelligent discussion with friends. *smiles* I think I've read my last Horror Novel!!!!!

ddavitt: I hate horror and gruesome stories

ddavitt: Never read em

Paradis401: How old is Koontz. King is around 58

ddavitt: But Tam, in that case, lots of H was written after you were born?

Copycat669: age doesn't matter. Book has to be written before 1969 with the exception of later works of those I deem literarily worthy. Such as RAH. Call me a literary snob. I'll read anything, but I find that I enjoy much more those

Copycat669: meeting the criteria

ddavitt: Well, i read detective books mostly and there are a lot of excellent authors nowadays

ddavitt: But I still enjoy the classics too. i think you might be limiting yourself there:-)

DavidWrightSr: We almost share a birthday Jane, Mine was the previous Saturday.

ddavitt: Neat!

ddavitt: taurean?(That would bug Heinlein!)

DenvToday: Same here Jane. I grew up on the Travis Magee series. I darn near ran off to Ft. Lauderdale.

Copycat669: Ok...so here's the question I want to ask RAH at my dinner: What did Betty's parents do to justify her divorce?

ddavitt: brb; cat emergency

AGplusone: Probably try to overprotect her.

KultsiKN: We are drinking my son's quarter century over here... Taurus, next Monday

DenvToday: Congratulations!

DavidWrightSr: I thought you were about that age yourself, Kultsi

Paradis401: Ditto

AGplusone: Limit her efforts to be mature.

ddavitt: Good question.

KultsiKN: DUH! A bit more than twice that

Copycat669: It's not fair that she whispers it to JT. I will refrain from any descriptive comments about whispering to a JT.

ddavitt: (Nearly had an escape into the garden as L just learned to open patio doors)

ddavitt: hehe

DenvToday: Cats are smart.

Copycat669: wait til L learns how to open the fridge. Wait a menit....isn't L the child?

DavidWrightSr: Well, everybody comes across to me as young on the internet :-)

ddavitt: Talisker can open the sliding doors very well

ddavitt: Lauren yes but the cats took advantage and rushed out into the garden

ddavitt: We had to chase and capture

KultsiKN: David, you ain't that much senior to me or David AG.

Copycat669: I got the impression that Betty's parents tried to indoctrine her in religion of some sort from the discussion that was open.

ddavitt: They're not allowed out this late

AGplusone: My cat can open any door in the house: stands there scratching it until someone gets tired and opens it for him.

DenvToday: Jane, I just sent you an e-mail. I think you'll find it amusing.

ddavitt: Or at all since a neighbour reported us:-(

ddavitt: I'll check it out,thanks. Well I better go and bathe the monsters.

DavidWrightSr: I was 62 on May 4th. IIRC, Dan Davis and I had the same birthday. 5-4-40

ddavitt: Can't believe Canada has byelaws that say cats have to be indoors or stay in their own gardens

AGplusone: Anyone born on the fourth of anything is a good person!

DenvToday: I sent it to you too Dave.

ddavitt: How do you tell a cat that?

DavidWrightSr: My cat who is 22 years old, was de-clawed and she can use her paws just like little hands, she can open a lot of doors.

ddavitt: No email yet; do you have most recent addie?

Copycat669: a 22 year old cat??

Paradis401: Well fed.

DavidWrightSr: Yep. when we took her to the vet's he had archived her records years ago, thought she had to be dead.

DenvToday: I used it. Thanks Jane

DennEditor: Howdy David!

Copycat669: Betty and JT are talking about his aunt who believes in astrology just before she asks if she's ever told him why she had to divorce her parents.

DavidWrightSr: She also has this annoying habit of waking me up at 6:00 (almost) on the dot. Adjusts for time changes too.

ddavitt: Right, have to go. AG is there a THS meet tomorrow?

DavidWrightSr: Hi. Dave (the younger). Just now saw that you had arrived.

AGplusone: So far as I know, yes, Jane. Bill's traveling. Probably be short.

AGplusone: Like an hour

DennEditor: I had to leave for a moment. Did I miss any good puns?

ddavitt: See you there then. Night everyone; thanks for a fun chat.

AGplusone: Hi, Dave

Copycat669: and it's just plain evil to make two people who are completely alone whisper to each other. That can't be for any good reason except to give me dinner conversation when we die and eat with Jesus and Paul.

ddavitt has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Denv. just got your e-mail.

DenvToday: Hope you like it. It gave me a chuckle.

SAcademy has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Jane's a fast girl...

DennEditor: Hello Mrs. H.

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny!

DenvToday: Good afternoon Mrs. Heinlein!

Paradis401: Hi Ginny.

Copycat669: Hello, Mrs. Heinlein. I'm new to the group. I'm Tammy. Tam for short.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Ginny.

SAcademy: Can't stay. Just dropped in to say hello.

KultsiKN: How's life?

AGplusone: Hi, Ginny . . . you just missed Jane who just left. Feeling good I hope?

SAcademy: Fair, thank you. I have been very ill.

AGplusone: We were just discussing why Betty Sorenson divorced her parents ... in Star Beast.

AGplusone: rather, we were guessing ... since she whispers it

SAcademy: Maybe because she didn't like them

DenvToday: lol As good a reason as I can think of.

DavidWrightSr: If you think about it, RAH threw in a lot of those kind of things. questions that had no answer, I think that he did it to stimulate our own imaginations.

Copycat669: or to give us dinner conversation...:-)

SAcademy: And some of them are coming true right now.

DavidWrightSr: Or give us something to discuss in chat rooms or on newsgroups O:-)

AGplusone: Was thinking: the bureaucracy supervising 'divorced' children must not have been too onerous or rule-bound ...

DennEditor has left the room.

AGplusone: Otherwise no one would divorce their parents except for the really restricted kids

SAcademy: Nite, all.

DavidWrightSr: There was a movie, can't remember the name, where the kid wanted to divorce her parents.

AGplusone: Night Ginny.

Copycat669: a professional guardian "didn't have nutty ideas" and they were just discussing astrology and religion. I think it had more to do with that....

DenvToday: Bye the way...have you all seen the news? A chimp (or is it a gorilla. Can't remember which) is having a hearing determining whether he has human rights and can be represented in court.

Paradis401: Nite Ginny.

Copycat669: Night mrs. heinlein!

SAcademy has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: s' pokoijnij nochi Ginny

DenvToday: RAH was about 40 years early on this one.

AGplusone: Really? Is it the one out here where they're refusing to allow the 'owners' to take him from a 'shelter' they put him in last year?

DenvToday: I believe so.

AGplusone: "Jerry Was a Man"

DenvToday: Yep!

Copycat669: imagine a jehovah's witness child suing for divorce to have a blood transfusion....

AGplusone: Could be imagined rather easily. What usually happens, through, is a

AGplusone: children's court representative does that after being appointed

KultsiKN: Reminds me of a movie I once saw... Waited till she died and then resuscitated

KultsiKN: When the parents did not give their consent

AGplusone: Maybe Betty's parents refused to consent to allowing her to attend sex education classes: wanted her to be content with "just say no" abstinence classes.

AGplusone: Or insisted she attend "creationism" biology classes rather than evolution ones?

DenvToday: Well, I must be off. Great discussion as always. Bye everybody. Thanks for a terrific afternoon.

KultsiKN: Comes the time when a young lady can't say no.

AGplusone: See you Bill. IM me, please.

DenvToday has left the room.

Copycat669: DenvToday is bill, right?

AGplusone: ooops, I got confused. No, Denv is "Ron"

KultsiKN: Denv = ron

Paradis401: Well you gonna get an IM

KultsiKN: Denn is Bill

DavidWrightSr: Names are confusing here. We have several each of Davids, Rons, Bills and probably others

DavidWrightSr: Only one Kultsi :-)

KultsiKN: DennEditor, that is.

KultsiKN: Yup.

Paradis401: Only one Denis who spells his name with one n as in willy.

KultsiKN: Y?

Copycat669: hehee. Or John Thomas. *still laughing about that one*

DavidWrightSr: But Bill (DennEditor) is Bill Dennis. still confusing.

Paradis401: Correct, Tam. One N

DavidWrightSr: The ladies are a lot less confusing. I wonder if there is something ominous about that ?:-)

Copycat669: You'll have to wonder....muahhahahhahaha...

Copycat669: I mean tee hee

KultsiKN: Uh... the people there are talking about ghosts at my homestead...

Paradis401: Meaning?

KultsiKN: They are confused.

Paradis401: :-D

KultsiKN: Instead of there, here.

AGplusone: How can the ladies be "less confusing"? Generically they're necessarily confusing.

Copycat669: So what book are we going to lead off with for our next chat?

Paradis401: Huh?

Copycat669: As though I could limit my discussion to just ONE Of the delicious morsels.

AGplusone: Brand X ... little knowledge of the unknown chromosome exists.

KultsiKN: Ladies are 'terra incognita' :-D

Paradis401: The ladies might debate that. Including our Commodora.

AGplusone: [leave this in, Dave. Wanna see if Jane pays me back]

DavidWrightSr: Names are less confusing not the ladies themselves, that's an oxymoron

Paradis401: She will.... in spades

KultsiKN: Right, Dave!

AGplusone: I'm open to any book. Which one would you like to try, Tom?

KultsiKN: Tammy

AGplusone: Sorry ....

AGplusone: Tammy

Paradis401: Go for it Cat.

DavidWrightSr: How about Sixth Column. Have we done that recently? We were talking about it a little earlier

AGplusone: Need new glasses ....

Paradis401: If this goes on?

Copycat669: Sixth column was good. My favorites are now The Moon, then To Sail, then Fear No Evil

KultsiKN: Good choice, I'll go for it.

Paradis401: Which of the above?

KultsiKN: Tam, how about Time Enough?

AGplusone: Hehehe ... IWFNE ... could pick that one. Start with the "Why do people feel it's so poorly written . . . unedited?"

KultsiKN: AG!

Copycat669: Poorly written!! omg!!

Paradis401: AG Ugh!

AGplusone: I.e., how would you/or RAH "improve" it? (by editing what?)

Copycat669: Time enough...oh yeah...fit that in, um...well, tie it up with To Sail.

Paradis401: TEFL sounds good.

KultsiKN: Yeah, Tam, surely.

DavidWrightSr: I'm agreeable. TEFL

Copycat669: Time enough is a pretty big can of worms. I'm game. :-)

Paradis401: Yay!

DavidWrightSr: Im sorry. IWFNE

KultsiKN: TEFL, my fave.

Paradis401: Me too. Please?

DavidWrightSr: Either. I prefer TEFL myself. IWFNE is not my favorite

KultsiKN: It's one of Jane's.

AGplusone: You get to pick, Tam ... I think that's what we're saying ...

DavidWrightSr: Then you don't have any excuse to stay silent. What am I saying, you didn't keep silent this time :-)

KultsiKN: Yes, AG: Tam's choice.

AGplusone: And you can start the 'war' by asking the loaded question as TreeTopAngel (Elizabeth) did this last time .... :-)

Copycat669: Let's go with Time Enough. That opens up the whole trilogy quite nicely. :-)

Paradis401: :-D

AGplusone: 'kay :-D

KultsiKN: YES!

KultsiKN: My fave.

Copycat669: and next time Kultsi picks. :-)

AGplusone: sex with children and all . . .

DavidWrightSr: In 2 weeks. the 23rd and 25th?

Paradis401: Applause

KultsiKN: Oh, Tam!

Copycat669: Works for me. :-)

Copycat669: Sex with children? Oh no...sit on my hands til next time...

Copycat669: what was treetop's question?

Copycat669: so that I can prepare my rebuttal?

DavidWrightSr: Did you read my archive. It was the first post

AGplusone: cluckcluckcluck .... (she asked: why does everyone say Oscar is one of the incompetent Heinlein heroes?)

Copycat669: Oscar...i don't remember Oscar...

Paradis401: Nuhunh, I never said that.

DavidWrightSr: Oscar Gordon, otherwise known as Evelyn Cyril Gordon.

KultsiKN: In GR...

AGplusone: The 'sex with children' issue is the one the trolls always pick on to start the war on TEFL ... ignorning a few facts such as, fer example, actual "age" . . .

KultsiKN: Or the consanguity

AGplusone: in Da Capo when Ted Bronson is just about to be dropped off . . . on Earth before WW I

KultsiKN: And his escapade with Maureen

AGplusone: so we get into the why isn't it (1) incest, and (2) child abuse . . . ?

Paradis401: That was most proper.

AGplusone: and then go on to mommie and Ted

Copycat669: I think...oh darn. I'd sit here and chat all night and day if you'd all let me.

AGplusone: and related 'feminist issues' . . .

AGplusone: You may

DavidWrightSr: It can be hobbit forming

Paradis401: Ted was always a gentleman.

Copycat669: I LOVED those books!!

Paradis401: No Woody.

KultsiKN: Tam, for me it's night :-D

Copycat669: OK...i suppose my loose sexual ideas will pin me to the wall in THAT conversation, eh?

KultsiKN: 2.30, AM

DavidWrightSr: How long before sunrise Kultsi?

AGplusone: The post TreeTopAngel made didn't exactly pin her.

KultsiKN: Four hours

DavidWrightSr: that long. I seem to remember a lot shorter nights when I was in Northern Germany.

KultsiKN: The summer is getting nigh.

AGplusone: No one just sent me an "Instant Greeting" by video did they?

AGplusone: I'm bout to delete it without opening.

DavidWrightSr: Good suggestion.

Paradis401: Ditto.

KultsiKN: Video is not usually bad.

AGplusone: Agree, but I'm tired of spam ...

KultsiKN: BTW, you've got Mac

DavidWrightSr: Was that an AIM instant video?

AGplusone: Yes, one other reason ... half the time the 'doz requires I download yet one more plug-in ...

DavidWrightSr: do you have id of who sent it?

AGplusone: Dunno, it's gone where deleted spam goes

Copycat669: I don't send those things for that reason alone. :-)

AGplusone: I rarely send spam to AOL to let them fool with it anymore

AGplusone: Just click delete

DavidWrightSr: I was just wondering. Felicia is on with a new name and thought she might have been the one. 'infobabefgh'

AGplusone: That was the name she used Thursday, yes?

DavidWrightSr: Right

KultsiKN: I saw it, 2

Copycat669: say ok. So I have AIM. If I log on and don't have an invite, can I just join on my own somehow?

AGplusone: Yes. On Mac or Windows?

KultsiKN: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: Click on 'File-->Create Shortcut' if you are on PC

Copycat669: Choking on the mere IDEA of macintosh. Windows.

AGplusone: If Windows Dave will tell you how to shortcut. If Mac I'll tell you how to invite yourself.

Copycat669: so i just hit on that and it will link me?

Copycat669 has left the room.

AGplusone: In the immortal words of Daffy Duck, you do realize that "this means war!"

Copycat669 has entered the room.

Copycat669: Yay! it worked!!

KultsiKN: WB, Tam!

DavidWrightSr: File-->Create Shortcut and OK. It will create a link on desktop. It works better if you start AIM first then click on it

DavidWrightSr: Must have hit the wrong button.

AGplusone: AGplusone (4:35:17 PM): In the immortal words of Daffy Duck, you do realize that "this means war!"

AGplusone: You missed that one ... so I copied it.

Copycat669: Um, that would be a good translation of Thith meanth war!

AGplusone: <veg>

AGplusone: Yes.

Paradis401: Should we be armed for big gear or baby bear?

DavidWrightSr: It works better if you start AIM first then click on the shortcut

KultsiKN: I always do it that way.

Copycat669: I dunno. I'm not sure. But I do say things that aren't always rated PG.

AGplusone: And as everyone knows, I have modeled my life after Daffy ... armored against use of the weapon Marvin the Martian uses .... I forget what he calls it.

AGplusone: Look around and see whether we have any kiddies present, then say it ... if not.

Paradis401: Grizzly or just plain bear?

Copycat669: It's really hard when you're discussing heinlein, don't you think? I mean most of his adult novels are just LOADED with sexual innuendo. And his hints make me hotter than most author's blatant descriptions.

Copycat669: *blushes* I just told a room of virtual strangers that Heinlein makes me hot.

AGplusone: We can discuss that.

AGplusone: Have you heard of The Heinlein Journal?

AGplusone: Do you know THS website?

AGplusone: there's a link to THJ on the "Links" page.

DavidWrightSr: Arrgh, Got dropped

KultsiKN has left the room.

jilyd has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Dee

KultsiKN has entered the room.

Paradis401: Hi Dee.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Sourthen Lady

DavidWrightSr: Southern

Paradis401: Welcome back Kultsi.

KultsiKN: Saved, and got kicked out. Duh!

jilyd: Hi. If you can't look at the clock and come at the right time, just look at the calendar and come on the right day, eh?

AGplusone: Close enough for Government work, Dee.

KultsiKN: LOL

KultsiKN: Hi, Dee dear!

DavidWrightSr: Dee are you on my mailing list?

jilyd: Hi, both davids, Hi Cutie & Denis. Who's Copycat?

DavidWrightSr: That's Tammy, our newcomer

Paradis401: David W am I on your mailing list?

jilyd: I don't think so, DW, I'm not getting any mailings. Didn't realize you had one. Hi Tammy, welcome!

DavidWrightSr: If you didn't get notice of thursday's log, then you aren't or I have wrong address

Copycat669: Hi Dee. I'm tam. :-)

DavidWrightSr: IM me and I'll add you

Paradis401: What's new Dee?

AGplusone: Send me a copy of your EMail too Dee, please.

DavidWrightSr: I got it David. I'll send it to you

jilyd: Getting ready to go to Hamvention next week. Anyone here near Dayton, OH? I would like to ask on the ng, but I don't really like to advertise that I will be on the road to possible lurkers.

Copycat669: what's Hamvention?

AGplusone: Durn! No. I think our closest to that area is Ron Harrison and he's in Illinois, or DennEditor, who's in Peoria of some such place.

jilyd: An Amateur Radio hamfest (buying and selling, new and used) cum convention. The biggest one in the world, as far as I know. 30,000 - 40,000 attend from all over the world.

AGplusone: Ah, the dididumdumdidi convention.

Copycat669: Ah. WEll Ron and Bill have me beat by a state. I'm in Iowa. :-)

AGplusone: You do know dididumdumdidi, Dee?

Copycat669: But it's often confused for Ohio...

KultsiKN: Dee, you're a ham?

AGplusone: In my childhood, when I was about the age of Oscar, my rich uncle made me an Army ham (?) ....

Copycat669: I've been called a Pig before. Even a sow. But a HaM?

AGplusone: among other things.

Paradis401: Oh AG, you're not punning? It's getting late here.

AGplusone: No. dididumdumdidi is the morse signal for IMI, which means "I say again" in morse, or is a request to "repeat"

jilyd: Well, I passed my 5 wpm, but I haven't used it since, so I would not say I know it. Got my no-code tech ticket about 8 yrs ago, moved up to t+ just before the new licensing structure. Gotta get to work on General.

AGplusone: but the Army never uses the word "repeat" except for one special thing ...

AGplusone: having to do with Artillery firing strikes

KultsiKN: Fyuuu! Tech is a bit tougher...

DavidWrightSr: My brother in law is a HAM and tried to teach me morse when I was 10. Learned it,but never got up any speed, so never became a HAM. :-(

jilyd: In voice mode, recommendation is to use "say again" since "repeat" can sound like "received."

Copycat669: Um, I'm in voice mode. ;-)

AGplusone: "repeat" on an Army net means only "Fire the same barrage again, NOW!"

Copycat669: didididumdumdumdididi

AGplusone: IOI

DavidWrightSr: SOS

Copycat669: was that binary??

AGplusone: yes ...

Copycat669: and I only know SOS because of the horrible kitchen cleanser commercials. ;-)

DavidWrightSr: The problem is as I see it is that Morse is really trinary, without spaces, you can't tell things apart

AGplusone: You never write it out. Just learn to recognize it when you hear it

AGplusone: That's why it's a signal. You omit the spaces

jilyd: DW, the current maximum speed is 5 wpm for any level license. That is the international minimum, I believe, for the lower bands.

KultsiKN: One common sound on mobile here is dihdihdih dumdum dihdihdih

AGplusone: for example: INT QSA QRK means what is the strength and legibility of my signal? and you don't put the spaces in.

jilyd: Yeah, AG, everyone recommends against learning CW by sight, say you should learn by sound. Only way to break the 10 wpm barrier, so I hear.

DavidWrightSr: Maximum? Minimum?

jilyd: I never did learn the Q signals, since I only operate phone.

AGplusone: Only way to break 21 . . .

AGplusone: You can't think about it.

jilyd: DW, 5 is min/max, except for tech which is code-free.

AGplusone: Yes. I remember. Thought about getting a civilian license once.

DavidWrightSr: Without spaces how do you tell dididi dumdum dididi from didididum dumdididi?

KultsiKN: No way?

AGplusone: You just learn the conventions.

jilyd: DW, you use spaces between letter and words, but when a combination of letters makes a special signal, like the Q signals, you "bunch" them.

AGplusone: There is an SOS, but there isn't VB that means anything in particular

AGplusone: Dee said it another way

Copycat669: well, gang. I'm headed out to go grocery shop. It's the only guilt free spending I get...

AGplusone: LOL

DavidWrightSr: Made my point. You have to use spaces sometime, so that makes it trinary, not binary.

Copycat669: If you're still here when I get back, I'll join back in.

AGplusone: didadididadadadidadidit

jilyd: Good to meet you, CC.

KultsiKN: Bye, Tam, nice having you around!

DavidWrightSr: Thanks for coming Tam

AGplusone: Thinking of it that way, yes, David

Paradis401: Me got to go too, night all, and thanks.

AGplusone: Nice to meet you Tam

Copycat669: You too, dee and all. I'm going to be ecstatic to play in this sandbox.

Paradis401 has left the room.

jilyd: Bye, denis.

AGplusone: Did you find the link Tam?

Copycat669: yep. it's on my desktop.

AGplusone: for the Journal?

Copycat669: I'm on all the time, btw. So feel free to engage in private chat if you feel like it. You might have to remind me who you are, but I'll get it eventuatlly

Copycat669: Oh. not for the journal. I'll get it another time

AGplusone: 'kay, ask me again if you forget about it

DavidWrightSr: You on DSL?

KultsiKN: K, Tam, got you added on the buddy list...

DavidWrightSr: Ok folks, that looks like it for tonight.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:09 P,M.

KultsiKN: Dave, did you get it all?

AGplusone: G'nite from New York, David

KultsiKN: Nite, AG!

DavidWrightSr: Got everything.

KultsiKN: Good!

DavidWrightSr: Night everyone

jilyd: Good night, AG.

AGplusone: Wanna keep going, Dee?

KultsiKN: Dee?

jilyd: Only for a bit,.

DavidWrightSr: If y'all do and say anything of importance let me have the log.


Final End Of Discussion Log

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