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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday May 10,2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

Guest Author: L.Neil Smith

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


From: ddavitt (ddavitt@netcom.ca)

Subject: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-04 19:24:02 PST

Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn Rand.

http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/index.html

Neil is the author of many books, ranging from his first, 'The Probability Broach' which features a detective who ends up in a parallel universe where the Whisky Rebellion ( discussed here on afh recently) was resolved somewhat differently, resulting in an anarchist USA, to some Star Wars tie ins. He is a long time member of the Libertarian Party and a lifetime member of the NRA. The homepage mentions that in his books Neil predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, digital watches and the Internet which is pretty good going.

Neil has some strong views on subjects familiar to a Heinlein reader and I expect the chat to be lively and informative. I hope to see some new faces as well as the always welcome familiar ones and remember that all instructions on how to participate are on Dave Wright's page

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

Jane


From: David M. Silver (agplusone@loop.com)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 02:31:18 PST

ddavitt wrote:

>Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our

>chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author

>whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn

>Rand.

>http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/index.html

>Neil is the author of many books, ranging from his first, 'The

>Probability Broach' which features a detective who ends up in a

>parallel universe where the Whisky Rebellion ( discussed here on afh

>recently) was resolved somewhat differently, resulting in an

>anarchist USA, to some Star Wars tie ins. He is a long time member

>of the Libertarian Party and a lifetime member of the NRA.

>The homepage mentions that in his books Neil predicted the fall of

>the Soviet Union, digital watches and the Internet which is pretty

>good going.

>Neil has some strong views on subjects familiar to a Heinlein reader

>and I expect the chat to be lively and informative.

>I hope to see some new faces as well as the always welcome familiar

>ones and remember that all instructions on how to participate are on

>Dave Wright's page

>http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

>

Thanks for the pointer to one of L. Neil Smith's homepages, Jane. I've never read any of Neil's writings before, so I've had trouble finding copies of any of his earlier works, including _The Probability Broach_ which I particularly wanted to read. However, I'm making do with three recent ones: _Pallas_, _Brenda Martyn_, a sequel to an earlier story, and a third one (something about "Elders") I cannot seem to find in the clutter of my 'book-to-read' pile right now, but no doubt will stumble over the next time I head for a cup of tea.

I followed up the homepage URL you've noted by clicking around here and there and found a second homepage, which contained collected essays written by Neil.

One such, http://keithlynch.net/lns/rhr is very important to us. Its title is "Robert Heinlein Remembered," and contains Neil's recollection of his introduction to Heinlein the author and his acknowledged influence on himself as writer and adult. It's worth reading; and if I had Smith's permission I'd quote it in its entirety here.

I'll try to comment on my impressions of Pallas as soon as I finish it, and soon follow up with the others. I'd appreciate reading the comments of others who have read earlier works.

David


From: ddavitt (ddavitt@netcom.ca)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 04:25:34 PST

Bill Patterson is unable to post so I am forwarding this email as he requested

Jane

It's very unfortunate that L.Neil Smith's books haven't been easily available to us to prepare for the upcoming author chat. Smith's website [URL] indicates Smith has 21 books, of which only two, Bretta Martin and Forge of the Elders, are on the shelves in bookstores now.

Smith's reputation was founded on the Probability Broach series starting in the 1970's. Although these books are now difficult to find, they hold up very well to re-reading. Because it deals with travel between not-quite-parallel timelines, the series tends to blur a little at the edges; some of the later novels are only loosely attached to the main conflict of the principal books of the series, though mention of critical figures does include them. It's a little like the situation we find in Heinlein's World as Myth books. (I have to talk about these books from memory because I've only been able to find two or three of them in the last couple of years to replace my main copies, which are packed away.

The main line of the series is contained in The Probability Broach and The Venus Belt. Briefly there is a timeline that diverged from ours at about the time of the Whiskey Rebellion. Albert Gallatin, Washington's Secretary of something or other in this alternate timeline came out strongly for the individual rights of the whiskey makers and sided with the Rebels. As a result the U.S. never got a strong federal history. Over the course of the next two centuries, the US government became less and less important, economic issues of laissez faire capitalism taking center stage (there is a misconception you need to get rid of in order to understand what Smith is saying here: the U.S. was never a capitalist or market economy. As the 19th century wound down it was dominated by monopoly capitalism, which is functionally the same kind of thing as the economies of Italy from 1922 to 1945 and Germany from 1932 to 1945.) In our universe, the aristocratic power-elite notions of Alexander Hamilton prevailed (the economic end of what Heinlein portrays in "Lost Legacy" as the position of the "Young Men"). The alternate universe are Gallatinists and the enemies of human freedom are "Hamiltonians."

Smith shows the alternate universe as expanding in terms of economy and technology -- together with some completely different developments (the great apes, chimpanzees, and dolphins are on the same level of articulateness and intelligence as are H. sap.) . By comparison our universe is in a familiar downward spiral into depression economic and technological. Communication between this universe and the alternate is opened by accident and a disillusioned gumshoe from our universe, Win Bear, gets a taste of freedom and moves over to make war on the Hamiltonians. In The Venus Belt, he tracks down a Hamiltonian conspiracy led by their equivalent of Walter Cronkite. That's the way it is.

As the series grew, Smith began incorporating some ideas about nanotechnology, introduced by Eric Drexler's Engines of Creation and ran smack into the problem that has confronted all science fiction since then that tries to deal with what Vernor Vinge has dubbed "The Technological Singularity": within the next ten to twenty years, the rate of technological change is expected to increase so dramatically that people living on the other side of this upward bend in the curve will be incomprehensible to us. Smith introduces smartsuit fabrics -- a skintight suit that is essentially a giant nanotech computer with fantastic abilities to adapt and protect -- and by the time of Rorqual Maru, which is effectively the last book in the series, the characters -- though recognizably acting logically, can hardly be identified with as human beings any more. The amount of energy power and computing power available to human beings makes them god-like.

The series developed fuzzy edges by incorporating what looks like other timelines. In The Nagasaki Vector, we have a regimented future somewhat like Larry Niven's water-empire State or the Svetz stories, in which probability broach technology is invented by someone who was a lab assistant to the inventors in the libertarian-Gallatinist future. Here an exploratory flying saucer lands on a world where the Freenies, borderline-sentient beings that look like German WWII helmets, are kicked into full sentience by feasting on our waste coffee grounds and elect the captain of the vessel as their god. They participate in an interuniversal revolutionary coup. In Their Majesties' Bucketeers, trilateral-symmetry aliens of a desert planet with a technology about at the level of Europe in the 17th or 18th century rediscover the methodology of Sherlock Holmes. It's an immense amount of fun and one of my favorite among Smith's books.

Bill


From: David Wright (maikosht@alltel.net)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 04:53:01 PST

"ddavitt" <:ddavitt@netcom.ca>wrote in message

news:3AF36346.8C6431B9@netcom.ca...

>Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our

>chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author

>whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn

One small nitpick. The next meetings are Thursday May 10 and Saturday May 12.

I have read three of Neil's books, The Probability Broach, The Gallatin Divergence and Henry Martyn.

TPB and TGD take place in an alternate history. There are obviously books that come between these two, but I haven't yet found them. One character, Lucy Kropotkin, reminds me a lot of Hazel from The Rolling Stones and NOTB.

TPB and TGD, especially, TPB, I would say, are the most Heinleinesque in style. However, don't ask me to define what 'Heinleinesque style' is. I have been trying to figure that out for almost 50 years now. Both of these books use first person narration. Neil, like Heinlein, seems to be willing to let the reader use his imagination rather than filling in every detail. He uses new words and terms without explicit definition and lets their definition come through from their context, much the way a child learns language.

Henry Martyn is much darker than anything Heinlein ever wrote, and although I enjoyed it, I found it difficult to get through because of the overwhelming 'evil' that is the driving force of so much of the plot action.

David Wright

Archives of previous discussions and instructions on how to attend these meetings are found at http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html


From: David Wright (maikosht@alltel.net)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 04:58:45 PST

"David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>wrote in message

news:9d0pip$g3i4l$1@ID-53646.news.dfncis.de...

>

(snip)

>I have read three of Neil's books, The Probability Broach, The Gallatin

>Divergence and Henry Martyn.

>

Correction. Make that 4. I also read 'Brightsuit MacBear', a novel set in a much later time period in the same series as TPB and TGD. Very reminiscent of some of Heinlein's coming of age works.

>David Wright

>

>Archives of previous discussions and instructions on how to attend these

>meetings are found at http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

>

>


From: Arian (ladyarianrose@yahoo.com)

Subject: Re: RG AIM chat L Neil Smith Guest Author May 11 and 13

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2001-05-05 07:24:03 PST

One question ...[1]

I've never had the opportunity to get to one of these discussions before, and I'm wondering:

It is in two parts, yes? Is the second a *continuation* of the first? What times are they being held (as in, time of day).[2] Please be kind. ;)

--

"I aspire to be more than I am."

"A wolf can act but like a wolf."

Go figure! -- Blessings, Arian

[1]Okay, so it was two questions

[2]Zulu is fine, I can convert. :)


Are these dates correct, 11th and 13th? They are a Friday and a Sunday. Are we switching days, or should this be the 10th and 12th?

--

aka "geeairmoe2" on Heinlein Chat on Instant Messenger

. 8-11 pm Central Thursdays, 4-7 pm Central Saturdays

Expanded Horizons Distributors

"Cyber Fund Raising For the 21st Century"

http://www.ehdservices.com/

ddavitt wrote in message <:3AF36346.8C6431B9@netcom.ca>...

>Once again we are fortunate enough to have a guest author on our

>chat. This time it is L Neil Smith, a well known Libertarian author

>whose home page lists Heinlein as a major influence, as well as Ayn

>Rand.

>http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/index.html

>Neil is the author of many books, ranging from his first, 'The

>Probability Broach' which features a detective who ends up in a

>parallel universe where the Whisky Rebellion ( discussed here on afh

>recently) was resolved somewhat differently, resulting in an

>anarchist USA, to some Star Wars tie ins. He is a long time member

>of the Libertarian Party and a lifetime member of the NRA.

>The homepage mentions that in his books Neil predicted the fall of

>the Soviet Union, digital watches and the Internet which is pretty

>good going.

>Neil has some strong views on subjects familiar to a Heinlein reader

>and I expect the chat to be lively and informative.

>I hope to see some new faces as well as the always welcome familiar

>ones and remember that all instructions on how to participate are on

>Dave Wright's page

>http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

>

>Jane


Lady Arian Rose asked:

>One question ...[1]

>

>I've never had the opportunity to get to one of these discussions before,

>and I'm wondering:

>

>It is in two parts, yes? Is the second a *continuation* of the first?

Yes. Yes.

>What times are they being held (as in, time of day).[2]

>Please be kind. ;)

Thursday is held from 9 PM to midnight, New York City time (US EDT).

Saturday is held from 5 PM to 8 PM, NYC time (US EDT).

I'll let someone else convert that to Zulu or Greenwich for you, because I always get it wrong.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"


agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone) wrote:

>I'll let someone else convert that to Zulu or Greenwich for you, because I

>always get it wrong.

You doggies spent too much time sitting in one place for long

stretches. The more mobile US forces [e.g., USMC, USN] quickly

learned quick time conversions.

OJ III


Thanks to the tireless efforts of David Wright you can read logs of past chats at:

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

Will in Texas

--

aka "geeairmoe2" on Heinlein Chat on Instant Messenger.

8-11 pm Central Thursdays, 4-7 pm Central Saturdays

Expanded Horizons Distributors

"Cyber Fund Raising For the 21st Century"

http://www.ehdservices.com/

Arian wrote in message <:01c0d56e$86d50480$0300000a@desktop>...

>One question ...[1]

>

>I've never had the opportunity to get to one of these discussions before,

>and I'm wondering:

>

>It is in two parts, yes? Is the second a *continuation* of the first?

>What times are they being held (as in, time of day).[2]

>Please be kind. ;)

>--

>"I aspire to be more than I am."

>"A wolf can act but like a wolf."

>Go figure! -- Blessings, Arian

>

>[1]Okay, so it was two questions

>[2]Zulu is fine, I can convert. :)


I wrote:

>I'll try to comment on my impressions of Pallas as soon as I finish it,

>and soon follow up with the others. I'd appreciate reading the comments

>of others who have read earlier works.

Notes: L. Neil Smithís novel Pallas1993 (Tor)

This novel won the "Prometheus Award," given for best science-fiction novel annually by a Libertarian organization.

A South Africa capitalist and his contractors, under a loophole in UN charter governing space, terraforms an asteroid, Pallas. It is the only viable off-earth colony, Luna being virtually an abandoned effort, under UN administration, too-cold Mars having defeated other efforts to establish colonies. He designed it to be colonized by volunteers who pay their own transportation costs for the very expensive privilege, but once there are free to Ďroot hog or die, in the words of the North American 16th to 19th century frontier--something which Smith goes to great pains to emulate in this novel. The terraforming has stocked the asteroid as a terran wilderness, with large herbivores, antelope, pigs, deer, etc., and the accompanying forests and prairies, rendering it suitable to an agrarian society. Many workers from the construction crews employed by the South African remain, entering into a minimalist compact drawn up by a libertarian philosopher, who also, it later appears, became a colonist along with her anthropologist husband. The UN however has a toe-hold on the asteroid, an enfenced enclave known as "The Greeley Project," which it stocks with Ďvolunteersí from among the disposed on earth who are essentially enslaved by articles of indenture which they are required to execute as a condition of emigration binding themselves and their progeny in perpetuity to serve The Greeley Project, an agricultural "cooperative," reminiscent of both the pre-Confederacy U.S. South, and the collective farms of the pre-1990s U.S.S.R. An appointed failed Ďliberalí politician, Gibson Altman governs, essentially a dictator, The Greeley Project which is heavily subsidized by UN, which also provides Altman with a staff of armed Education & Morale counselors ("goons") who are essentially slave overseers.

Emerson Ngu, son of SE Asian "boat people" 20th century immigrants to the failed democracy that was the United States, is a teenaged volunteer to The Greeley Project, bound by his parents, who also labor for it, his father in the fields and his mother as the housemaid of Altman himself. He is rebellious, imaginative, and resourceful, having created a Ďcatís whiskerí radio receiver by which he in his concealed free time listens to the equivalent of a Ďradio free Pallas.í After, and not for the first time, for his rebelliousness being punished, he escapes and finds himself outside the "rim fence" surrounding The Greeley Project, where at the first habitation he encounters the same sort of helpful reception Marjorie Baldwin and her companions found at the end of Robert Heinleinís Friday, but with one significant emphasized area: everyone here, man, woman, and child, bears and uses arms--not an unsurprisingly emphasis considering the authorís well-known 2nd Amendment hobby-horse.

Mrs. Singh, the widow at whose home he lands, first feeds, then sings the glories of individualism, and then presents to the teenage boy with a firearm left behind when her own husband died. Her teenage daughter Gretchen initiates him in the mysteries of its use, as well as certain other mysteries perhaps more important to teenaged boys.

But this isnít a "boy-meets-girl" plot variant except in a slight sense. Emerson, at the time he escapes the communism of the agricultural collective, is the proverbial blank slate. His teachers will range from unnamed slaves from whom he learned rumors sufficient for building his own radio, before he left the Project, to the widow Singh, to "Cherry," the proverbial madam, a rather young one in fact, with the unlikely heart of gold (she invests her gold in Emersonís business enterprises, as they develop and shower upon her lavish results, later), to one "Judge" Brody (a tip of the hat to MiaHM), and finally to two fascinating characters, an elderly married couple living about as far from civilization as they can get, the legendary anthropologist R. L. "Digger" Drake-Tealy, and his wife, the equally legendary political philosopher, Mirelle Stein. Imagine the elder Leaky crossed with Raymond Dart, and I think you have Drake-Tealy; and then marry him to Ayn Rand, and I think then you have this couple, including the source of most of the wisdom they chisel onto Emerson. Author Smith, as least in this novel, likes to pay tribute to his icons; and he obviously plays games naming his characters. "Emerson" indeed!

So in a sense, I suppose, this is a "man who learns a lesson," several lessons are force-fed him and us, kind of plot.

Typical of the lessons, aside from the obviously predictable one about owning and maintaining expertise in the use of firearms (it might scare most of you if I ever disclosed my true beliefs concerning firearms, because despite my so-called liberal bent, my mind runs along the lines of having hypothetical access to a hypothetical M-60 machine gun buried in a hypothetical mountain or desert nearby that I hypothetically smuggled home piece-by-piece from a hypothetical AO in SE Asia a hypothetical 30-some years ago--some folk of my ancestry have this "Never Again!" fixation), is the following: Smithís ideal society, outside the "rim fence" isnít agricultural even the extent of post-1860s Homestead Act in the United States. Land is free for the taking, but the "sodbusters" never arrive. People hunt meat; have kitchen gardens, and harvest natural fruits of the forest and field--mushrooms, for example. The only Ďindustrialí farming, as such, is the Greeley Project plantation. The teaching here is that the prehistoric hunter-gatherers were healthier and happier and freer, of course.

That gets me to the bone I have to pick with Smith, the author. I donít mind his libertarian line: I consider some underlaying premises naÔve; but I consider the notion that "rights" exist independent of government naÔve as well; and persons of all political stripes adhere to that naivetť equally strongly, so I donít mind whether anyone agrees with my qualifications on Libertarianism one way or another.

What bothers me about the novel is this: Robert Heinlein once wrote he believed there were two sorts, basically, of science fiction: gadget and character development stories--he wrote mostly character development because he found them most agreeable and salable. There is, however, he conceded a third category, in a sense, and he said this of it:

"Much so-called science fiction is not about human beings and their problems, consisting instead of a fictionized framework, peopled by cardboard figures, on which is hung an essay about the Glorious Future of Technology. With due respect to Mr. Bellamy, "Looking Backward" is a perfect example of the fictionized essay. Iíve done it myself: "Solution Unsatisfactory" is a fictionized essay, written as such. Knowing that it would have to compete with real story, I used every device I could think of, some of them hardly admissible, to make it look like a story."

All right: it doesnít "bother" me--it annoys me. Smithís writing in at least this novel is a fictionalized essay about the Glorious Future of Political Science; and, to that extent, is reminiscent of Ayn Rand, the prototype for his character Mirelle Stein; and she just as Emerson and the rest is made of cardboard, or perhaps in her case, of stone--to accept the little wordplay on her name. I didnít like Ayn Randís fiction because I couldnít identify with those cardboard figures--I really didnít care whether John Galt lived, died, or simply went away and stopped bothering me, after a few chapters. And I really donít want to tell you Who I concluded he was: wouldnít want the censors from Utah to move in and shut us down because of me.

Thatís the problem with this Ďnovel.í Itís not--instead itís a series of interrelated essays--and Smith is a good essayist, but itís not my meat. I only wish heíd thought of more devices, even "some of them hardly admissible, to make it look like a story."

I hope heís done better with the Martyn and Elders stories that I havenít read yet; and, since I didn't know I'd be hosting tonight, I'll do my darnest to make some headway with them before we greet our guest in two-and-one-half hours.

See you all tonight!

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"


I was visitor 94943 to his site, and it infected me with no desire to read his work.

Sorry,

Tian Harter

http://user.aol.com/tnharter

Last night I met a guy that said he was going

to use the force of Gravity as a power source.


>I was visitor 94943 to his [ L. Neil Smith ] site, and it infected me

>with no desire to read his work.

>

>Sorry,

>

>Tian Harter

.......golly.....what a surprise. A Green did not want to read about a Libertarian.

cheers

oz


Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

DenvToday: I sent him an invitation--twice. He said he didn't get it.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Folks.

ddavitt: Hi Dave

DenvToday: Anybody have any suggestions?

DavidWrightSr: What's the problem. No Neil?

AGplusone: Okay, hardball time... tell him to click on the chat button on his list ... then remove whatever it puts up, and type "HeinleinReadersGroupchat" into the address, and type his own name "E1Nei1" into the invited names

ddavitt: I am showing him on my buddy list now

DenvToday: Neil said the hourglass isn't going away as long as it's on the chat screen.

AGplusone: Tell him to reboot

ddavitt: Still 10 minutes to go;plenty of time

AGplusone: Somebody send Mrs. H an invitation, please. I can't get this damned thing to do it from my end.

ddavitt: Will do

ddavitt: Won't let me send to Ginny

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

DenvToday: He's rebooting.

ddavitt: Hi Will

AGplusone: I'm having her reboot too

geeairmoe2: Hello, All.

ddavitt: Gremlins out tonight

AGplusone: Hi, Will, having problems getting our guests and others into the room

AGplusone: glad you made it!

AGplusone: One less to drag into room ... <g>

ddavitt: Your post on afh looks funny AG...more gremlins?

DavidWrightSr: I got gremlins too. My wife opened an e-mail attachment last night that infected my system with a virus. I am process of cleaning it out now.

AGplusone: Good Lord!

AGplusone: The funny symbols for quotes, Jane?

DavidWrightSr: Yep. It's running rampant all over our church mailing lists.

ddavitt: Yes AG. What's the name of the virus?

ddavitt: Funny symbols cropping up all over it...

AGplusone: Idiosyncrasy of MS Word 2001 crossed by BBedit I think

fgherman has entered the room.

ddavitt: Ah well..it's still readable

DavidWrightSr: Win32.Badtrans.21882

ddavitt: Hi Felicia

DenvToday: Good evening

DavidWrightSr: or some variation on the number.

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia ... we're fighting to get Neil and Mrs. H into the room

fgherman: Hello all

AGplusone: Ginny has rebooted, somebody try sending an invitation to her again, please.

AGplusone: I think ....

geeairmoe2: Her door just closed.

fgherman: I have to reboot also

fgherman: brb

AGplusone: Okay, watch for her please .... brb fer sure

ddavitt: I will send to Ginny

AGplusone: How we doin' with Neil, Denv?

ddavitt: Says she's not available

DenvToday: I'm not sure.

DenvToday: I'll try to see.

fgherman has left the room.

SAcademy has entered the room.

AGplusone: He just signed back on ... hi, Ginny!

SAcademy: Hello. Tpook quite a while this time.

E1Nei1 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Lots of us having problems tonight

DenvToday: Victoire!

ddavitt: Welcome Neil

AGplusone: We're still fishing for ... speak of the Devil, himself!!!

AGplusone: Welcome!

DenvToday: Good evening SA.

SAcademy: Good evening all.

ddavitt: Did you get the invitation Neil? Or did you make it on your own?

E1Nei1: Hi all! Rebooting did the trick. Sorry I didn't reply to ddavitt -- eveerybody's a faster typist than I am

ddavitt: No problem! And don't worry about typos :-)

AGplusone: That's all right, what you miss in accuracy you can make up for in typos as I do

E1Nei1: You're very kind.

AGplusone: :-D

AGplusone: and can't jump very high either

SAcademy: Lovely smiley

E1Nei1: Never saw that one before!

DavidWrightSr: Welcome Neil

E1Nei1: Thank you.

ddavitt: There's a huge range now

AGplusone: Okay, here we all be ...

AGplusone: at last!

ddavitt: Yes; do you want to host AG?

AGplusone: I think you've got a range from some how haven't ever read you here, to some who have read one or two ... and Jane can host if she wishes ....

ddavitt: For old times sake?

AGplusone: how=who?

ddavitt: OK, if you will spell me as needed.

AGplusone: For auld lang sign ....

DavidWrightSr: I can make some comments, If I may

AGplusone: absolutely

AGplusone: GA, David

ddavitt: Sure!

ddavitt: OK, let's start then

ddavitt: Neil, the usual proceedure is for us to take it in turns asking questions

DavidWrightSr: I just re-read The Probability Broach and I was really struck this time by similarities to Lunie Society in TMIAH, except that the Loonies didn't have guns and [did have] Authority to bleed them. Also Lucy reminded me a great deal of Hazel

DavidWrightSr: There is also mention of a a Heinlein City.

ddavitt: Then we can move to a more informal chat later on. Whatever suits.

E1Nei1: Well it's no secret that I've been more heavily influenced by RAH than any other writer or thinker. I also had an Admiral Heinlein in _TPB_ if you'll recall.

DavidWrightSr: I missed that one.

AGplusone: ?

E1Nei1: He won at the battle of the Bering Straits against the Czarist Navy

DavidWrightSr: Also, I have to ask. what comes between TPB and TGD?

DavidWrightSr: I haven't found those yet

AGplusone: How fast did they snatch up the reprints of that book [TPB] when it came out with Brenda Martyn?

E1Nei1: You mean in order of writing or on the timeline?

DavidWrightSr: Timeline

fgherman has entered the room.

E1Nei1: It's _Bretta Martyn_ and the answer is, I don't know, most of them never tell me anything.

ddavitt: AG was that your question or do you have another?

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia ... meet Neil ... sorry, had a girlfriend named Brenda Martin, believe it or not, and fingers have a mind of their own ...

fgherman: Hello Neil

ddavitt: ?

E1Nei1: I type too slowly to reassemble my timeline now. Hello, fgherman.

fgherman: It's Felicia, Joel Rosenberg's wife

AGplusone: I read Pallas, because I expected it to be similiar to Moon is a Harsh Mistress ... what it intended to be a revisit theme?

AGplusone: With Judge Brody, etc., ...

E1Nei1: No, not a revisit. It's meant to be a truly accessible utopia, unlike the one through the broach everybody's always hollering at me about. (^_^)

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I meant just the book title(s)

E1Nei1: Judge Broday was a wave at TMIAHM

DenvToday: ?

E1Nei1: I have some question marks here I don't understand.

AGplusone: In a way it was accessible, moreso than "Moon" even ... yes, that wave was nice ... given they find an asteroid of that composition.

ddavitt: Soory Neil; that's people indicating they want to join the queue

AGplusone: to ask questions ...

ddavitt: I am up next with a question, then Denv

geeairmoe2: Like raising their hand.

E1Nei1: Okay. FWIW, 70% of the asteroids are of that composition.

AGplusone: are they ... good news

ddavitt: Or we can just chat without that; which do you prefer?

E1Nei1: Just remember I type slowly.

ddavitt: Will do

AGplusone: /ga

AGplusone: which means I'm done ....

ddavitt: OK; Neil, as a non libertarian, I often wonder just what part of Moon is A Harsh Mistress is so appealing to libertarians?

ddavitt: Pre revolution or after it?

E1Nei1: Good question ...

E1Nei1: I wrote _TPB_ and _Pallas_ in part because they both have more libertarian societies than TMIAHM ended up with. For me, the idea is that _nobody_ has a right to give another human being an order and expect it to be followed or else.

E1Nei1: The fight against authority is the main appeal of TMIAHM, I think.

E1Nei1: ge

E1Nei1: that's /ga

ddavitt: The post rev society quickly became a mirror to contemporary US is seems to me

AGplusone: in Moon

E1Nei1: Yeah. Hence TPB and Pallas and the rest.

E1Nei1: /ga AG

ddavitt: Ok, thanks ga Denv

DenvToday: Neil, Pallas has several sly parodies of modern-day celebrities such as Shirley MacLaine and Ted Koppel. Mirelle Stein is meant to be a Ayn Rand-like character. But I was wondering--who, if anybody, was Drake-Tealy modeled after?

E1Nei1: Drake-Tealy's a composite of Raymond Dart, Louis Leaky, and a couple others. Leaky's a real hero of mine.

AGplusone: [my guess was right!]

E1Nei1: I also like Robert Ardrey and ... Desmond Morris

E1Nei1: /ga

DenvToday: I know them all, but not well. I'll do some reading up on them. Thanks.

AGplusone: remember reading them all about the same time, Killer Apes and all.

ddavitt: Neil, how hard was it writing the Star Wars books?

ddavitt: I mean, was it constricting as you had to work within a pre existing framework?

E1Nei1: Ha! Ha! It was a royal pain in the _tochis_! Very short time, lots of editorial interference, poor payment of royalties.

ddavitt: I'm amazed at the big names who do them and the Star Trek ones

E1Nei1: Also some very silly rules. /ga

joelrmpls has entered the room.

ddavitt: Barabara Hambly, laurell Hamilton for instance

AGplusone: Evenin' Joel

ddavitt: Hi Joel

joelrmpls: Evening, all.

DenvToday: Howdy Joel!

E1Nei1: Hello, Joel.

ddavitt: Joel is living proof that guest authors live to tell the tale :-)

AGplusone: ?

E1Nei1: Ha!

ddavitt: ga AG

AGplusone: How hard did you find 'telling the tale' in Pallas balancing it against what you wanted to write about various philosophies of yours?

AGplusone: For example: I found it hard to follow the "tale" but enjoyed the essay-like interludes ...

AGplusone: the episodic nature of the plot ... skipping years ... was a little distracting.

E1Nei1: Not hard at all. as I write _extremely_ detailed outlines (synopses) which I bash around until I like them. Also, if you balance your characters right, the story will generally tell itself. Or worse, the characters won't let you do what you planned -- in the end, for example, Ian Islay refused to rape Loreanna. Trying to make him do it upset my stomach.

E1Nei1: Episodic -- well. if I'd coverd all those years in detail it woulda been a much longer book, right?

AGplusone: Islay in one of the Martyn stories ... ? Absolutely a much longer book for Pallas

E1Nei1: Right. And it's Arran Isaly -- see, even I forget my own characters sometimes.

E1Nei1: Islay.

joelrmpls: Like the malt scotch.

AGplusone: made it harder for me to connect with the character Emerson ... one day he's fourteen, next he's 55 or somethin'

E1Nei1: All the placenames and many family names in thoase two books are for Scottish islands. I want to write a third when I can.

ddavitt: Islay is a Hebridean island; any connection there?

E1Nei1: one day he's fourteen, next he's 55 or somethin'

ddavitt: Sorry! I've been to Islay; most of them actually. lovely place.

E1Nei1: Just like real life. I'm 55 on Saturday, and 14 seems like yesterday!

AGplusone: LOL ... still 17 myself

ddavitt: I was 37 on monday...,sigh>

DenvToday: Happy Birthday!

ddavitt: :-)

DavidWrightSr: I was 61 last friday!

DenvToday: I was 22 just last week. In 1975.

SAcademy: Many happy returns

E1Nei1: Islay is an island near enough to Scotland to count. Of course it's also where they make an excellent single malt

ddavitt: Gosh; all these natal celebrations!

fgherman: Happy birthday to all you May babies

E1Nei1: Laphroigh

joelrmpls: Gesundheit.

E1Nei1: That's the whiskey. Thanks for the birthday wishes.

ddavitt: It's the Inner Hebrides, off the West Coast. I'm Englsih Neil, now living in Canada

ddavitt: Seaweed and iodibe <shudder>

ddavitt: Iodine

E1Nei1: Where in Canada. I have friends in the west.

ddavitt: Toronto is the closest big city

joelrmpls: "Seaweed and dead bodies" is always how I've heard it.

DenvToday: Neil, you had about a billion Oplytes (did I spell that correctly) headed toward the Moon in Bretta Martyn. I'm still chewing my nails in suspence.

fgherman: Too much seaweed & dead bodies in Islay

ddavitt: Close enough Joel...my husband collects single malts

DenvToday: suspense even

ddavitt: We are wandering to alcohol; happens a lot Neil :-)

AGplusone: They must use the seaweed and dead bodies to flavor the scotch, right?

E1Nei1: I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado. Grew up in St. John's newfoundland and Ft. Walton beach Florida. I badly miss the sea.

fgherman: I feel the same way in Minneapolis

AGplusone: <----juniper berry fan, myself.

ddavitt: Tell me about it! I get claustrohobic in ontario sometimes

Featherz Dad has left the room.

ddavitt: Bombay Sapphire rules

E1Nei1: Oplyte -- see next book, either _Lia Wheeler_ or _Phoebus Krumm_

AGplusone: absolutely...

DenvToday: I live in Denver, but I grew up in Cleveland. I badly miss the garbage on Lake Erie.

E1Nei1: Ha!

E1Nei1: I'm headed for Columbus later this month.

E1Nei1: Marcon

AGplusone: Born in Cleveland ... how are the alewives?

DenvToday: I vote for Krumm. I respect any man who can keep 2 wives happy!

fgherman: Joel did that last year

joelrmpls: Fun convention. I was GoH last year.

E1Nei1: So I hear, Joel. I'm going for the Prometheus celebration. Should be fun. I don't do many cons.

AGplusone: Going to Phil?

joelrmpls: I can't. Work and all.

E1Nei1: Is that the WorldCon or something? Sorry, I don't follow these things.

AGplusone: Yes, over Labor Day

AGplusone: ... we're fighting with them over having an RAH memorial blood drive.

E1Nei1: Labor Day I hope to be working -- between books now. I feel like a bum.

ddavitt: Neil, setting aside Moon, what other Heinlein books appeal to libertarians? And why?

AGplusone: They want everyone to have a 'good experience" which to them doesn't include being asked to contribute blood

E1Nei1: It's his whole attitude toward life ...

E1Nei1: I started with the gutted version of _Red Planet_ when I was in 6th grade. Also _Tunnel in the Sky_ and _Starman Jones_.

ddavitt: He wrote about a lot of people to whom self determination was paramount

E1Nei1: It's hard to point to any one thing until you get to his later work, partly because they censored him.

ddavitt: Tunnel they set up a government as a priority; is that libertarian? I would have thought not?

E1Nei1: You're right, Jane. And self-reliance.

AGplusone: making your own way freely on a frontier seems particularly appealling

E1Nei1: Indeed it does.

AGplusone: The Jeffersonian idea

AGplusone: with a new 'revolution' every generation

AGplusone: and a new compact

ddavitt: It appeals in the abstract...maybe we're too pampered now

E1Nei1: Gives me a real Paine!

ddavitt: groan!

AGplusone: <g>

E1Nei1: Thank you, thank you ...

E1Nei1: /ga

ddavitt: If we did colonise a new planet, we would still take along a lot of luxuries

AGplusone: like oxygen ...

DenvToday: Jefferson said the best form of government was a benevolent dictatorship, tempered by the occasional assassination. RAH obviously thought the same in TEFL.

SAcademy: Like computers?

E1Nei1: Sure. I made that point in _Pallas_. High-tech pioneers.

ddavitt: probably SA

ddavitt: Yes, exactly

ddavitt: And why not?

joelrmpls has left the room.

E1Nei1: TEFL? SA?

DenvToday: Time Enough for Love.

ddavitt: Sorry; time Enough For Love

AGplusone: I liked the terraforming approach ... logistically if would have been something on an unusual scale ... how many acres would Pallas contain?

ddavitt: We use acronyms a lot to speed it up.

geeairmoe2: The acronymns take some getting used to.

E1Nei1: The terraforming would be huge, but doing it from orbit's an advantage. And of course it's in the future

ddavitt: Always helps

AGplusone: And I also loved those room fan bicycles ...

E1Nei1: I won't go into it now, but I'm on the board of advisors of a group that wants to go to Mars soon.

fgherman: Seems like terraforming would be a kind of difficult one-man operation

ddavitt: Are we bypassing the Moon then?

E1Nei1: True. That's why we have a free market and volunteerism.

AGplusone: As was done one farm at a time by one family at a time in Farmer in the Sky

DenvToday: What do you want to bet that when you get there, the IRS will try to tax it.

ddavitt: I know we went there but we didn't really do much; what advantages does Mars have to outweigh the extra distance involved?

E1Nei1: Yes! Bybass that stupid rock!.

ddavitt: It may have ice....

E1Nei1: Personally, I want to colonize the asteroids, but the mars group and I are fellow travellers.

DavidWrightSr: FYI: Neil's Web Page & LIBERTY IS THE HIGHEST POLITICAL VALUE

E1Nei1: It may have ice -- asteroids have 6-22% water, plus keropgen -- oil.

ddavitt: Are any big enough for settlements of reasonable size?

ddavitt: Or is it one asteroid per person?

ddavitt: Ceres is how big?

DenvToday: Neil, will Mister Thoggosh be there to greet you?

AGplusone: Would moving a Pallas would be a bit easier than terraforming it in place?

ddavitt: ( Jane realising she knows little about her own solar system)

fgherman has left the room.

E1Nei1: Pallas is the size of the Four Corners states plus half of Wyoming. Ceres is the size of India. I hope Mr. Thoggosh has a beer waiting for me. I prefer Fat Tire.

ddavitt: Hmm...didn't know that.....Ok.

E1Nei1: Moving Pallas won't help -- needs plastic to retain an atmosphere.

AGplusone: A little bigger than EM-3 that Libby moves, both of them?

E1Nei1: Gess so.

E1Nei1: Guess.

AGplusone: The plastic was fascinating ... where did you find that one?

ddavitt: I always worry about moving big stuff like that..knock on effects could be nasty

E1Nei1: Jane shouldn't feel bad. There's very little education about the asteroids. But I think they're our best bet.

ddavitt: But it's so far ahead it's not my problem

DenvToday: It's a good thing that Home Depot was having a sale on plastic.

E1Nei1: Not so -- unless you're a lot older than me.

ddavitt: Do you like the exploded planet theory/ or is that debunked now?

AGplusone: Right, Milar makes a difference.

E1Nei1: Theories: geologists insist they were a planet, astrophysicists say they can't have been. I go with the geologists.

ddavitt: Scary thought though; something that can destroy a planet.

AGplusone: and you go with the oil weren't no dinosaurs theory as well ...

ddavitt: dinosaur killer, atomic bombs, whatever...

E1Nei1: Mylar won't work, but there are better plastics. And it was probably another planet that destroyed what became the asteroids.

E1Nei1: At least I hope so.

ddavitt: a hit or gravitational stresses?

AGplusone: Better them that Mike's martians ...

geeairmoe2: "Worlds in Collision" stuff?

E1Nei1: Hit, undoubtedly, or the planet wouldn't have formed. Have to go with the non-bio oil theory, as the stuff is actually known to be there. 70% of the asteroids have it -- it's what makes chondrites carbonaceous.

E1Nei1: Collision? Well that's how the planets were all _born_, isn;t it?

E1Nei1: They're all "accretion bodies"/

E1Nei1: /ga

AGplusone: About your essays: do you submit them to National Review type publications? or is there a market like that beyond National Review?

E1Nei1: Gave up on NR a long time ago.

AGplusone: I know ... just asking for what market there might be.

E1Nei1: I started _The Libertarian Enterprise_ to have an outlet. Now, of course, I have some collected in my new book -Lever Action_.

E1Nei1: I also just spam them out a lot. (^_^)

E1Nei1: ga

AGplusone: agplusone@aol.com spam away

E1Nei1: Thanks!

ddavitt: Do you prefer non fiction to fiction Neil?

ddavitt: writing it I mean

geeairmoe2: And which is easier?

E1Nei1: No, Jane, I'd rather be writing a novel than _practically_ anything else. But the nonfiction is necessary and offers its own satisfactions.

AGplusone: [don'

AGplusone: {don't guarentee I'll agree, but I enjoy reading them}

ddavitt: I would love to be able to write a story but it is beyond me. I envy all you writers that skill of creation.

ddavitt: But it's fun reading them :-)

E1Nei1: Easier? Both are hard when you';ve just been writing the other usually takes me several days to switch. Both are easier. Sometimes they just gush out of the ends of your fingers. _The Mitzvah_ was like that, and so was the piece I just wrote against the drugwar.

ddavitt: The Mitzvah was a collaboration wasn't it? is that difficult?

AGplusone: 'burn with a hotter flame' like Starship Troopers?

DenvToday: Folks, I'm in the middle of Lever Action. With me, Neil is preaching to the choir. Some of you might find his essay's too forceful. But they're always entertaining--and his use of language is worth the price by itself.

E1Nei1: Jane, never give up. I thought that same thing a decade before I wrote _TPB_.

DavidWrightSr: At what age did you start writing?

ddavitt: Thank you Neil.

E1Nei1: Thanks, Ron. Collaborating with Aaron Zelman is a breeze. he's a great gentleman and a clever fellow. And I'm really looking forward to the book I'm doing with Rex May. I started writing when I was in 3rd grade, first published in a paper at maybe age 11, first novel sold in 1979.

E1Nei1: Oddly enough, finally published the short stories that cause me to think of giving up, _after_ TPB was published.

E1Nei1: caused.

AGplusone: someone see if they can invite FeatherzDad, please?

E1Nei1: ga

ddavitt: So how many of us here would class themselves libertarian? I know it doesn't follow that all Heinlein fans are automatically libertarian..nor that all l's are heinlein fans I suppose.

ddavitt: I will

E1Nei1: Remember that a libertarian is simply someone who won't _initiate_ force to get what he wants.

AGplusone: probably not me ... I don't trust anyone except you guys, and only when I can keep my eyes on you

Featherz Dad has left the room.

E1Nei1: Not a matter of trust. It's a matter of self-interest.

E1Nei1: ga

AGplusone: 'splain that to me carefully ... what's the distinction between the two

AGplusone: or refer me to an essay, please

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

E1Nei1: Too long for here -- but you can trust me to look out for myself, right? And I trust you to look out for yourself. That's the beginning. Now we know what to expect from one another. Next step is reralizing that trading is better and more profitable than fighting. Step after that is to stay prepared for the stupid ones who'd still rather fight.

AGplusone: or steal

E1Nei1: And die.

ddavitt: Isn't it a fairly recent political idea?

ddavitt: If so, why did it take so long to arrive?

AGplusone: so what do you do about oppression, form vigilance committees ad hoc?

E1Nei1: Depends. I think it's the root of what the Founders had in mind. Of course there were later developments. Informal by RAH, more formal by Rand. And others.

ddavitt: I once said that I thought it could only work in an advanced yet simple state and got lots of static <g>

AGplusone: referring to organized oppression ... Soapy Smith et al

E1Nei1: It took so long because of the mystique of the state -- which is simply institutionalized robber gangs. I wrote of this in _Pallas_ and of the way agriculture may have made things worse for us in that connection.

E1Nei1: Advanced but simple. See _Pallas_!

ddavitt: Basically, people prefer to let someone else do the thinking for them you mean?

E1Nei1: Remind me about Soapy Smith

AGplusone: The interesting theory in the book so far as I was concerned ... support factually comes from where?

ddavitt: I haven't been able to find that yet but I will carry on looking

AGplusone: Sidney Ducks in Frisco circa 1849

AGplusone: actually a bit later

E1Nei1: Support: got the idea from _Discover_ magazine piece that said developing agriculture may have been our biggest mistake asd it nails us down and m,akes us prey to robber gangs. Does other bad things, too -- compare healthy paleolithic human bones to diseased and stressed neolithic one.

ddavitt: But without it what would we eat?

E1Nei1: Jared Diamond was the author. He'd probably stroke out to see what I did with his idea.

DenvToday: Jane, Cheese Doodles, of course.

AGplusone: <G>but interesting extrapolation, wasn't it?

E1Nei1: What would we eat? It's all there in _Pallas_. Better is the best answer. Antything we want.

ddavitt: Don't know them but they don't sound appealing !

E1Nei1: How about VCheetos?

E1Nei1: Skip the V

ddavitt: Are they those bright orange things?

AGplusone: "V"s stick in your throat

AGplusone: yep

ddavitt: Yuck!

DenvToday: If God hadn't meant us to eat Ding Dongs, He wouldn't have invented cream filling. QED

AGplusone: Diamond is who?

E1Nei1: Yeah, the orange things. Yum. And Twinkies -- but mostly Hostess cupcakes

ddavitt: Seen them but never eaten one

AGplusone: btw, surprised you haven't a Jack Cade in Pallas ... <veg>

ddavitt: I had a Joe Louis once

DenvToday: Jane, you're missing the glories of American cuisine. :-)

E1Nei1: Diamond was a contributing editor who wound up running the mag. I gather he's what PJ O'Rourke calls a "bedwetting liberal". 'Course I could be wrong.

AGplusone: 'kay, thank you.

E1Nei1: Don't know Jack Cade.

AGplusone: Fellow in one of Willy the S's stories

ddavitt: Neil, what did you think of Heinlein's Take Back Your Government, remembering when it was written?

E1Nei1: Okay. I have a Jack Slade somewhere.

AGplusone: Ah ... good!

E1Nei1: RAH's book was in the 50s sometime, I think. I haven't read it yet. I have a more sideways approach to politics that I think is called for today.

pakgwei has entered the room.

ddavitt: Sideways?

AGplusone: You'd enjoy it I think ...

ddavitt: Hi Pakgwei

pakgwei: what'd i miss whatd i miss?

AGplusone: Hi, Pakgwei, tonight's L. Neil Smith as guest ...

ddavitt: Everything!:-)

E1Nei1: Hello, Pakgwei

pakgwei: im slow... only a man you know

pakgwei: Hello

ddavitt: I make allowances

E1Nei1: As we make allownaces for Canadians, right?

ddavitt: I'm british remember!

AGplusone: Jane's a reverse vampire ... sun never sets on her!

E1Nei1: _Do_ forgive me! But you're safe here in North America, right?

ddavitt: I like the canadians; very friendly people

pakgwei: same difference

ddavitt: LOL

DenvToday: Jane, it's not our fault that you sing the wrong lyrics to My Country 'Tis of Thee. :-)

ddavitt: Is canada North America?

E1Nei1: What were we talking about?

ddavitt: Not to Amazon when it comes to shipping fees...

pakgwei: how should i know...

E1Nei1: Yes, Jane, and it will soon be US!

ddavitt: We drifted

pakgwei: im american... we dont learn geography

ddavitt: I call a break for 5 mins or so

E1Nei1: Good!

DavidWrightSr: nor spelin

AGplusone: Okay, back at 21 past the hour?

ddavitt: We can refill glasses, feed the cat, whatever. OK?

AGplusone: Go feed cat ....

pakgwei: is there a topic tonight?

DenvToday: pakgwei, you're right. But we do learn to feel good about not knowing it.

SAcademy: Nite all

ddavitt: Always a good idea AG; they get testy otherwise

AGplusone: [must find wine ... ]

DavidWrightSr: Night Ginny.

ddavitt: Night Ginny! All unpacked?

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Too slow...

AGplusone: Yes, Pakgwei, Neil's writings and RAH, same plan every day.

ddavitt: pakgwei, I forget; are you an afh poster?

pakgwei: not in a while

pakgwei: got sick of the neverending threads

ddavitt: I know I've seen you on the chats in the past

ddavitt: We have been drownding in spam recently but it seems to be easing off

pakgwei: i was posting under the name Stranger (real original, no?)

ddavitt: :-)

AGplusone: [found jug of Livingstone California red burgundy ... virtual glass to all of you]

DenvToday: Salut!

ddavitt: Interesting to look at the last post in a thread; might be the same person who kills the discussion...

E1Nei1: (Raises Coke can)

ddavitt: Cheers!

pakgwei: *raises koolaide*

ddavitt: A Typhoid mary of threads

AGplusone: You'll be happy to know, at least, I had a nice cigar whilst I finished up Emerson's Saga today, Neil.

ddavitt: I was on Molson in honour of the Leafs

ddavitt: Now diet pepsi

DenvToday: <-----about to fire up a Trinidad y Cia Rothschild.

E1Nei1: I used to smoke cigars occasionally -- preferred Sherman's cigarettes. But then I had those heart attacks in '93.

AGplusone: That will do it, usually ...

E1Nei1: Did it for me!

DenvToday: I didn't know that Neil. How's your condition?

pakgwei: i feel so pitaful... no drinking, no drugs, no smoking

pakgwei: an underachever i am

E1Nei1: No discernable damage, thanks to always having been a Vitamin E megadoser.

AGplusone: you still have sex and rock 'n roll ...

ddavitt: I drink in moderation, that's all. Never done drugs nor smoked and happy to keep it that way.

DenvToday: I'm glad to hear that. Vitamin E? I take one per day. Not enough?

E1Nei1: I always sau I smoked all I could -- 2 packs of Marlboros a day for 30 years.

E1Nei1: I take 2000 units a day.

pakgwei: sex and rocknroll are my favorites

E1Nei1: They's good, pak.

DenvToday: pak, two excellent choices.

ddavitt: With you on that!

ddavitt: I combined the two and met my husband at a rock festival ;-)

AGplusone: If you were asked by someone who read all of Heinlein: which of your books in print should I read first, which one would you recommend?

DenvToday: Woohoo Jane!

ddavitt: It was a long time ago....

E1Nei1: _The American Zone_ (coming in November) or _TPB_

ddavitt: 14 years in August...

pakgwei: i combine the two and meet no women

AGplusone: I will refrain from remarking that your husband probably saw you as "smoking" Jane.

ddavitt: Ha!

pakgwei: maybe im doing them in the wrong order

ddavitt: You're so funny david :-)

AGplusone: So old too

E1Nei1: Hey, Pak, you know what Limbai=ugh says: read women's magazine articles aboiut whewre to meet men, then be there.

ddavitt: Keep at it Pakgwei

E1Nei1: Sorry about the typing.

pakgwei: i dunno,.... the few succeses Ive had havent been encouraging themselves

pakgwei: women are nuts

pakgwei: :-)

pakgwei: but anywaaaays.

ddavitt: As the only one here i protest!]

E1Nei1: Dig yourself out of that one!

AGplusone: What's American Zone gonna "be about," same old plan, Brain?

DenvToday: Neil, I've always liked your phrase "Propertarian" better than Libertarian. The word Liberty is open to everybody's interpretation. But if property rights are respected, personal freedoms are invariably also respected.

AGplusone: [it's the child's cartoon hour you want after you retire ... ]

ddavitt: OK; we will get back to the chat..I was up from 2.30 to 5.45 am with my baby so i will crash and burn soon

AGplusone: "Life, Liberty and Property ... "

E1Nei1: It's already "about", in the can and ready to be published. I may even have the cover on my website. It's about a plot to force government on the Confederacy, battled by Win Bear, Clarissa, Lucy, Will Sanders, and his pregnant wives.

ddavitt: But isn't libertariansim sometimes linked to anarchy/ Would anarchists respect property/ Remember the country in Number of the Beast where property could be be taken away easily?

ddavitt: the / are ?; finger slipped

AGplusone: Okay, back to that series ... good, now I have to track down copies for sure of PB, etc., et al.

E1Nei1: There are propertarian anarchists, too. Different denomination. I'm one.

ddavitt: Confusing!

ddavitt: So many different types

AGplusone: PB equals Probability Broach, pakgwei, his most famous novel.

E1Nei1: Naw. The others think govt defends property against the worthy pooooor. We think govt threatens property and should be abolished. History is on our side in this.

pakgwei: I humbly admit I dont think Ive read anything of yours

ddavitt: Libertarianism is predominately American isn't it/ why is that do you think?

E1Nei1: Bad pak! Seriously, start with _The Probability Broach_.

ddavitt: Due to your founding fathers and their ideals?

E1Nei1: No, there are libertarians all over the world. Most of them here, though. And Jane, they're _your_ founding fathers, too. They recreated Western Civilization.

ddavitt: Not so sure about that; the 1848 revolutions were mostly European after all

AGplusone: We had a thread on why capitalism doesn't work in developing countries, due to lack of notions concerning property we have was one development ... any agreement there, Neil?

E1Nei1: Yes ..... ?

ddavitt: What effect ( good that is) did the FF's have on Britain?

AGplusone: reformation of the rotten boroughs is one theory following St. Petersboro massacre

E1Nei1: FFs redefined western values and changed what the British govt has to be accountable for. In the end, that'll destroy socialism there and save the country.

AGplusone: Of course, we all know what Harry Flashman's governor thought about that!

ddavitt: I have to disagreee there as I don;t recall any changes in our system that can be directlt linked to them

E1Nei1: I agree with that about the Tird World if you also allow that much of our world actively tries to prevent their development. That't what the environmental movement is largely about -- Prime Directive, too!

E1Nei1: Jane, you should talk to a fellow named Sean Gabb. I'll introduce you if you like.

ddavitt: magna carta defined it quite well, way back in 13th century?

AGplusone: The notion expressed was that most of the third world population has no concept of 'property' for themselves ...

ddavitt: OK, sure!

E1Nei1: And Al Gore is happy to keep it that way.

AGplusone: property, as I think of it is entailed to the ruling class in perpetuity

E1Nei1: That's in England.

E1Nei1: Well, sort of.

ddavitt: Well, the Queen owns a surprising amount of it certainly.

E1Nei1: Including here. I'd freeze it until certain human rights standards are met over there. Like starting jury trials again. And gun ownership.

AGplusone: no such thing as movin' on to the frontier and staking a claim for your own

E1Nei1: Except straight up!

ddavitt: Well, there isn't in the US now is there?

AGplusone: yes, your point and Heinlein's

DenvToday: David, which is why so many libertarians are attracted to sci fi. It's a way to wipe the slate clean.

AGplusone: You can still homestead, desert and a few places

E1Nei1: Isn';t what? Jury trials? Gun ownership? Then what's this big ugly lump of a Glock 20 doiung here on my desk?

ddavitt: But as heinlein pointed out, we get there and the planets will probably have to fight to be free of Earth at some point

AGplusone: But you need to homestead ... no marking your stakes and taking it ...

E1Nei1: Oh, you mean a frontier? Right.

AGplusone: Gun, what gun? I have no guns, government ... just don't look under my bed.

E1Nei1: I believe that all colonies should start with the understanding that they'll be free.

ddavitt: So who pays for them?

ddavitt: TANSTAAFL

ddavitt: Can't expect them to be founded as a charity' investors will want a profit and a say in things

pakgwei: not free of earth... free of corporations

AGplusone: Well, actually, so don't ... Georgia, the land of Oz ...

AGplusone: some don't

E1Nei1: Everyone who wants to. My group (the Colony Fund) will raise 50 billion in the next decade through ordinary free market means, starting with ... well enough of that for now,

E1Nei1: ga

ddavitt: I think we have abandoned the queue

E1Nei1: How about this: read _The Man Who Sold the Moon_.

ddavitt: Yes?

AGplusone: think price will come down from $10 billion?

ddavitt: How does Dennis Tito tie in with that?

E1Nei1: Don;t know what you mean. CFI's following the Zubrin plan. You know about that?

ddavitt: Proof that individual cash can have an influence on government space programmes

AGplusone: No, GA, 'splain ...

AGplusone: your forum, sir

E1Nei1: Dennis helped pay for a little more space work, didn't he?

DenvToday: Neil, no I don't. But I'd like to hear about it.

E1Nei1: Okay ...

ddavitt: I think he set a good precedent for tourism in the not too distant future.

DenvToday: I offered Tito a ride in my Buick Regal for a mere 10 grand. He didn't take me up on it.

ddavitt: Can it achieve LEO?

E1Nei1: Zubrin wrote a book, _The Case for Mars_.

ddavitt: If so, i may buy a ticket from you:-)

pakgwei: the way you drive?

DenvToday: No, but I have some great CD's. And the air conditioning works.

pakgwei: the cosmonauts were safer

AGplusone: go on ...

DenvToday: Oh wait...yes, I know the name!

E1Nei1: In it, he shows how to leave a permanent settlement there for $50 billion, using a plan to manufacture fuel in place.

DenvToday: From a Nova special a few years back.

AGplusone: Yes, the Nova special

AGplusone: didn't see it a few years back, saw it last year

E1Nei1: It's a good plan, trouble is, most folks want the govt to fund it. CFI doesn't. Tell me -- would you buy stock in a venture like that, either for profit or the hell of it? I would. Of course I'd want to go, too.

ddavitt: It's still a long way away in time to get there. Need to get the journey time down maybe?

pakgwei: id buy stock for the good of it

E1Nei1: Well, technology may make that possible.

ddavitt: If all the SF fans gave a dollar we could do it easily

ddavitt: But it's the admin..

E1Nei1: Anyway, whalers and explorers sailed for longer than it'll take to get to MArs

E1Nei1: First, we need to get NASA out of the way.

AGplusone: Magellen far longer

ddavitt: Not quite the same though

DenvToday: Neil, there are already international treaties designed to impose government, taxes, etc on any space colonies. How will you handle that?

AGplusone: Tito may help there.

E1Nei1: See _Hope_, coming soon from JPFO. Sequel to _The Mitzvah_.

pakgwei: nasa is a funbling antiquated giant

E1Nei1: Treaties were made to be abrogated.

AGplusone: Even Cameron (I am king of the world) ... if he does his special.

pakgwei: tereaties would have to have someone to enforce them

pakgwei: treaties even

E1Nei1: Right. And they'd have to be better shots than us.

DenvToday: But you have to have the means to back it up.

ddavitt: But the colonies would NEED earth for so long; that would be the stick

AGplusone: Despite his plaguerizin every writer in the Galaxy

E1Nei1: The means exist.\

pakgwei: "farmer in the sky" style

E1Nei1: Maybe -- minus the agriculture. (^_^)

DenvToday: Are we talking gravity well, ala The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?

pakgwei: Deatils!

pakgwei: :-)

AGplusone: You'd have a hellava time doing a K.S. Robinson on Mars.

pakgwei: details that is

E1Nei1: As I say, I prefer Ceres or Pallas. Smaller scale, fewer problems.

ddavitt: Even further though?

AGplusone: Yes, and how far from orbit of Mars in days are the group you're talking about?

E1Nei1: Not enough to count, especially at constant boost.

AGplusone: Land base on Mars for fuel?

AGplusone: A triangle trade sorta thing?

DenvToday: I think we've all read RAH's essay in Expanded Universe about constant boost to Mars. It's still relevant.

E1Nei1: Gravity well would use it up. There's fuel in the asteroids, too, remmber?

ddavitt: Would need little ships to get about like in Rolling Stones?

E1Nei1: Yes!

pakgwei: you read about the plasma rocket they are working on?

E1Nei1: Space Winnebagos! (Where have we seen that before?)

pakgwei: using magnetic fields for containment

AGplusone: They were mentioned in the Nova special

ddavitt: Sounds like fun:-)

DenvToday: May the Schwartz be with you!

E1Nei1: No. I've been busy writing until recently. I prer other means -- cold fusion, for one.

E1Nei1: prefer

AGplusone: if it exists

ddavitt: Is that on the cards?

ddavitt: I'm totally not scientific....

ddavitt: so I'm not up on this at all

E1Nei1: Remeber you heard it from me. It's suppressed technology, but they can't keep it down forever. It'll change everything. This from the guy who predicted (almost alone) the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

pakgwei: i seem to remember someone named heinlein saying the societ union couldnt last too

pakgwei: :-)

AGplusone: 'kay, and the Sagebrush rebellion ...

DenvToday: I predicted--accurately--the collapse of my physique.

AGplusone: <veg>

E1Nei1: That's why I said "almost".

E1Nei1: Don't let your physique collapse. You're going to need it.

E1Nei1: More fun is ahead than you can imagine.

DenvToday: lol So very true. Which is why I insist on exercising my jaw muscles by eating Milk Duds. You actually burn more calories than you take in.

E1Nei1: Ha! Ha! Got me there!

AGplusone: I always thought so ... nothin' changes, everything stays the same no matter how much it 'changes' ...

pakgwei: is that like smoking while you jog?

DenvToday: lol Very close.

AGplusone: we usta do it in airborne ... while we double-timed ... you hadda be real tough to do that ...

E1Nei1: I'm diabetic, and I fight every day to stay alive long enough for gene therapy to be developed. My life has already been extended by angioplasty, atherectomy, and antiobiotics. We're all gonna live a long time.

DenvToday: Neil, I learned something today about Asthma and smoking in Lever Action. I didn't realize how many people develop it when they quit smoking.

E1Nei1: I think they always have it and smoking hepls it.

E1Nei1: helps

AGplusone: Asphrodel ...

E1Nei1: Yes?

E1Nei1: I use Ventolin -- not very good.

AGplusone: was the name brand of a mj cigarette they used to prescribe for asthma smokers

E1Nei1: Oh!

E1Nei1: Very interesting.

DenvToday: Neil, you must have been especially thrilled by the human genome mapping.

AGplusone: in the 30s ... my great grandfather smoked them ... mother worked a jazz joint when she was sixteen in Cicero, someone lighted up, and she asked if he had asthma? Innocently

E1Nei1: Yes and no. Depends how it's used -- genome mapping.

E1Nei1: I'm somewhat allergic to mj. Like my mind clear in any case.

E1Nei1: I'm mostly a tequila guy.

AGplusone: well, I didn't inhale

DenvToday: One would hope it would eventually lead to medical miracles. Of course, I'm optimistic.

E1Nei1: Right!

ddavitt: I am regretfully going to have to say goodnight as I'm very tired. Neil, thanks for joining us, I hope you can make it on Saturday too. I enjoyed the discussion tonight! AG, I leave the chat in your capable hands <g>

E1Nei1: About inhaling, I mean.

DenvToday: Night Jane.

E1Nei1: See you saturday, Jane. Thanks very much for your help.

pakgwei: night jane

AGplusone: <capable withered hands clutching>

ddavitt: No problem; hope the net is behaving better

AGplusone: Before you go, Jane ...

ddavitt: Yep?

AGplusone: I have to be at a meeting Saturday with Connie Willis, book signing, so someone has got to be here.

ddavitt: I can open up

DenvToday: Neil, what you said before about cold fusion has really intrigued me. As you said, it would change everything. Who is suppressing it?

AGplusone: 'kay

ddavitt: But bedtimes and meals will intervene at times

AGplusone: let Oz know please ... or someone

E1Nei1: Ron -- just try to tell me what ox in out civilization that _isn't_ gored by your having a little box in your car and basement that supplies all the power you need almost for free. The you'll know who _isn't_ suppressing it, right?

ddavitt: Will do. I'm sure it will coast along if i have to vanish now and then

E1Nei1: our civilization

ddavitt: Final goodbye!

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: why don't we take another five ... until 5 past the hour ... or ten if we wish ...

E1Nei1: Bye, Jane!

E1Nei1: I'll take 5.

DenvToday: I see your point.

AGplusone: Jane's got the fastest escape in the universe ...

pakgwei: what do you think of Zero Point Energy?

AGplusone: okay, afk ... Denv has the conn

E1Nei1: Pak, I think it's a hoax.

DenvToday: <saluting> Yes sir!

E1Nei1: Gone for 5 now.

pakgwei: hoax or mistake

DenvToday: I'll be here stoking the fire.

pakgwei: would be nice to believe... but difficult

AGplusone: bak

AGplusone: cat didn't need much water ...

pakgwei: cats dont need us

AGplusone: true ... one problem we had this time ... so damned few of his books are in print

DenvToday: "Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - RAH

DavidWrightSr: what is zero point energy?

AGplusone: wb Dave

pakgwei: mmm...

DavidWrightSr: I been here. Just not much to say tonight.

pakgwei: supposed unknown energy source that could very well be all around us...

pakgwei: a teaspoon able to provide massive amounts of power

AGplusone: the ether ... or the waves in Magic, Inc. ...

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of Waldo.

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

AGplusone: sorry, Waldo, of course

pakgwei: supposedly discovered when trying to seperate plates of metal

DenvToday: I'd settle for cold fusion. I'm not greedy. lol

AGplusone: The sort of adhesion you get when you have those machined blocks they use to measure?

pakgwei: thikn so

pakgwei: that was my impression anyways

E1Nei1: I'm back. And cold fusion's on the way. And that adhesion is air pressure.

pakgwei: i may have misunderstood

AGplusone: Thought there was some molecular bonding with real fine machining

E1Nei1: Not in an atmosphere.

E1Nei1: Happens up there, though.

AGplusone: hate to tell you how long ago I had chemistry

E1Nei1: Messy sometimes

DenvToday: Neil, how long do you think it will be before we have cold fusion?

E1Nei1: Depends entirely on politics.

pakgwei: did anyone ever figure out what Shipstones were?

E1Nei1: Look for our book _Hope_. We think it might help a little.

AGplusone: "Our"? as in ...

E1Nei1: It's a sequel to _The Mitzvah_, with Aaron Zelman.

E1Nei1: Due out in just a few weeks. jpfo.org

DenvToday: I'll look for it. Thanks.

AGplusone: about your back catalogue ... one publisher has it looked in ... or can you get Spectrum to look at it?

AGplusone: locked in

E1Nei1: Hate to say, who's Spectrum? I'm with several publishers.

AGplusone: look at the links page to http://www.heinleinsociety.org

E1Nei1: Will do. I'm with Tor, Baen. Mazel Freedom Press, and Mountain media.

AGplusone: Ginny got them to bring out Orphans recently, evidently no one else wanted to ...

AGplusone: which is nuts

E1Nei1: Booo!!

AGplusone: selling exclusively internet

E1Nei1: Ahhh...

Major oz has entered the room.

E1Nei1: I may try a collection of stories like that.

AGplusone: Evenin' Oz

pakgwei: i always find the lack of Heinlein sselection amazing in some of these chain stores

Major oz: 'even, folks.....

E1Nei1: Hello, Oz.

DenvToday: Hiya Oz

AGplusone: talking about several interesting things ... are you on an e mail IPS so I can send you a log?

AGplusone: Or is it your steam-powered ISP again ...

Major oz: Sorry for the lateness........the local kids monopolize the FOUR modems of my ISP.

Major oz: The propane powered one.........

AGplusone: okay, @aol.com work?

DenvToday: Oz, are the hamsters on a dinner break?

Major oz: works fine......assuming I can get on locally then transition to AOL

Major oz: The kids are in bed......they milk at 0300 hrs.

Major oz: In answer to your Q: my normal AOL addy will do just fine. I will back off, now, and let the conversation resume.

AGplusone: Okay, "outgoing"

E1Nei1: Mighty quiet in here ...

AGplusone: You might enjoy that heinleinsociety.org website

AGplusone: Oz the engineer is reading madly ... waiting for the cold fusion to come back up ...

E1Nei1: Gonna check it out right away. Say, how does this private message thing work? I've tried sending two, to no avail.

AGplusone: We have a little fun. You highlight the name in the column on the right, and double click ... should give you a window and you type the message

E1Nei1: Did that

E1Nei1: I'll try again.

AGplusone: With IBMs you have to minimize and maximize the windows ... or learn how to tile them

AGplusone: on your screen

AGplusone: did you read the critique I wrote about Pallas on AFH?

AGplusone: "AFH" equals the alt.fan.heinlein newsgroup

E1Nei1: Don't know. I usually don't read them. I confess. Espoecially the good ones. They'll _really_ screw you up!

AGplusone: Shame Joel isn't here now <g>

AGplusone: I just bitched about the characterization or what I felt was a lack

AGplusone: quoted the heinleinian thingy from On the Writing of Speculative Fiction about essays cloaked as novels

AGplusone: Had very little affinity for Emerson ... the boy or the man.

AGplusone: Actually ... maybe the last (before the attack) Emerson warmed up a little ...

E1Nei1: You said you weren't a libertarian, right? I had a huge argument with my editor about this issue, especially the Senator. My theory is thee was so much to the Senator that he had in common with the editor -- that the editor didn;'t want to see -- that what was left was minimal. Not saying the same is true of you, of course. Sorry you didn't like Emerson. FWIW, Heinlein himself like my stuff and

E1Nei1: recommended it to others, especially new writers.

AGplusone: I don't doubt that.

AGplusone: I thought Senator was far more cardboard ...

E1Nei1: That's why I don't care much what critics say. If the Old man liked me, that's enough.

E1Nei1: ga

AGplusone: I didn't understand what the hell he was doing ... anytime ... everything he did, especially at the end surprised the shit out of me.

E1Nei1: Oh! That's cause you're not a liberal!!

E1Nei1: I had to study to write him.

AGplusone: LOLLLLLL

E1Nei1: Basically, he thought he was an aristocratic benefactor and

AGplusone: surprise some of my friends and associates to find that out

AGplusone: /ga

E1Nei1: he couldn't understand why people rejected his "help".

AGplusone: yes, they don't

E1Nei1: That's the way Teddy Kennedy thinks, for sure. And Hillary.

AGplusone: I could no sooner get through to Feinstein about gun regulation than I could to Josep Stalin

E1Nei1: Of course his "help" invariably destroys them.

E1Nei1: Getting through to Feinstein isn't necessary.

AGplusone: sŪ, claro

AGplusone: But she wastes a seat with that nonsense

E1Nei1: (Suppresses rude remark about Diane Feinstein's seat.)

AGplusone: that too

AGplusone: Boxer otoh is a fox ... getting old, but a fox

DavidWrightSr: Neil, I had a great deal of trouble dealing with the 'evil' which drove so much of the action in Henry Martyn.

E1Nei1: One of mine: Sarah Brady is no lady/ Diane Feinstein is no Einstein.

pakgwei: Im out. Night all.

pakgwei has left the room.

AGplusone: Rofl

AGplusone: see ya, Pak

DavidWrightSr: I also had a little bit of a problem with Henry becoming such a leader at so young an age.

E1Nei1: Bye, pak, nice meeting you.

Major oz: Well......speed reading is not my forte

AGplusone: ... but ...

Major oz: But it seems that I have a soul cousin.

AGplusone: I'm outnumbered!

DenvToday: lol David

Major oz: Lifer in the NRA and a Ding-Dong addict.

E1Nei1: Well, the main evil in _HM_ is not calling things by their right name. The underlying evil everywhere is the desire to control the lives of others. We don't see the core of evil until _Bretta_.

E1Nei1: Gott go for a sec -- dog needs let out.

AGplusone: [I keep trying to tell everyone I bought an M-1 from the NRA when I was fifteen, with three other boy scouts ... ]

AGplusone: but I don't think they have me in their records base ...

Major oz: I'm the only person I know who is a 38 yr NRA lifer and an ACLU member.

Major oz: Diane does............

AGplusone: I bet she does

Major oz: Anyone who has ever used the word "gun" online is in her data base.

AGplusone: I write her e mail beginning: "Dear stupid ... I'm not going to vote for you next time even if the only choice I have is you or a Republican

E1Nei1: Then I'm on a million times

E1Nei1: her list, that is.

E1Nei1: I was Junior NRA in the 50s.

AGplusone: I think that was what they called the program that let us buy an M-1

E1Nei1: Metallic silhouette competitor until just recently and want to start again.

AGplusone: for Boy Scout shooting

Major oz: Have you been to the NRA range in NM ?

E1Nei1: Well kids should have guns. And Henry Martyn was brought up in a way that made him an adult sooner -- like they did in the 19th century.

E1Nei1: Yeah, I shot as a scout. And yes, I've been to the Whittington center. It's beautiful.

AGplusone: I never saw a problem with kids having guns ... what's the big deal ...

AGplusone: you let them have cars.

Major oz: I have the Nugent sticker: "Take your kids hunting / So you won't have to hunt for your kids.

E1Nei1: Control of others is what's at stake.

AGplusone: yes, and I see control on all sides ...

Major oz: My first one a single shot Rem #514 at age 13.

E1Nei1: Many of my books put guns in kids' hands. What control do you see on the libertarian side? if you see any, it's not being done right.

AGplusone: which is why, like Prof Bernardo de la Paz I can get along with a Randist ... or even a Libertarian.

Major oz: Still use it to zap chucks that burrow into my dam.

E1Nei1: Didn't own a gun until later -- an Astra Cub .22 short.

AGplusone: used to pot gophers on lawns ... and also dogs that people brought by to dump on my lawn ... with a very reduced reloaded wax round from a .22

E1Nei1: We used Model 52s that weighed about 300 pounds.

E1Nei1: Now, well I just built an EAA Witness .45.

Major oz: Problem I have with big "L" Libertarianism is that, by its nature, it is made up of people who do NOT want to run anything. So they can't effectively organize to run anything.

AGplusone: problem was the homemade silencer had to be rebuilt after about five shots

E1Nei1: Naughty, naughty!

Major oz: steel wool in a beer can

AGplusone: yes, well ... exactly

E1Nei1: Emptry plastic 2-liter pop bottle

Major oz: Kind of a small "glass pack" from the 53 Olds.

AGplusone: thing is, everyone thinks Republicans are the only ones with hidden guns ... what idiots

E1Nei1: Actually, there is a way to _not_ run things properly. No room or time to tell it here, though.

Major oz: Who is going to edit this before it is posted on the archive site ?

AGplusone: Me or Dave

Major oz: hokay

DavidWrightSr: What do you want edited?

E1Nei1: Shouldn't hide 'em. Encourages the badguys.

AGplusone: Statute of limitations has run on my escapades with silenced .22s shooting at dog's asses

Major oz: Silencers, especially in the coming attractions in Indiana next week...........

E1Nei1: Anyway you should strand up and be counted -- or surveilled.

E1Nei1: stand

AGplusone: I'm just a tired old man ... harmless

Major oz: re: Ding-Dongs..........can't have them anymore. The docs said no.

E1Nei1: We're all just harmless loveable little fuzzballs.

Major oz: Used to eat a box at a time

E1Nei1: What's with Ding-Dongs -- when there are Hostess cupckaes?

E1Nei1: cupcakes

Major oz: Wasn't the Alaska congrescritter a Libertarian?

Major oz: a few terms back........?

AGplusone: tell us some more about cold fusion ... convince me of something ...

Major oz: .....and perpetual motion......

E1Nei1: No, that was a legislator. The Party has severe problems. One of them, now, is me.

Major oz: what..............??????????

Major oz: ....is that about.

Major oz: cold fusion, that is

Major oz: UU took bad press on that one.

E1Nei1: What do you want to know about cold fusion. I'm a social observer, not a physicist -- although when I first heard about it I slapped my head and said "why didn't I think of that?"

AGplusone: In Pallas, the more incredible plot item I found was the industrial revolution (sorta) with the cold fusion plot ... considering it was discredited in the media ... but you wrote Pallas before that happened

Major oz: The important thing about it is that there ain't no such thing.

E1Nei1: Oz -- the LP is run by cheap crooks. I've fought them for 8 years and may even win sometime. More only if you want to hear it.

Major oz: Is it on your page.....or links?

E1Nei1: Cold fusion has not been discredited, only lied about.

AGplusone: go ahead, just us chickens and I'll edit it if you wish ....

Major oz: Like time travel, not discredited, just not developed.

AGplusone: I said "in the media"

E1Nei1: If it's discredited, then why are GE and the Japanese government financing experiments in Switzerland?

DenvToday: Neil, it's official--you're off Harry Browne's Christmas card list.

Major oz: Looking for it is fine.

E1Nei1: The physics are fine -- interstitial pressures, low presence of deuterium in tap water, etc.

Major oz: But I tend to play the odds.

AGplusone: go on ...

Major oz: <MS, Stochastic Processes>

AGplusone: I'm just a stupid english major who became a lawyer ... before he retired

E1Nei1: The original discovery was made decades ago in Germany and misunderstood. Tell you what: I'll post a paper on my website. Give me a couple days.

AGplusone: Okay, and the url is:

AGplusone: so Oz can find it easy

Major oz: And I'm a Zeb Carter wanna-be

Major oz: I got your site in my fav's already

E1Nei1: http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil And thanks, Oz.

DenvToday: I look forward to reading it.

AGplusone: 'kay, and thank you ... so will I

AGplusone: twelve minutes to go ... Oz I have to meet with Connie Willis Saturday, will try to get back while it's going ...

AGplusone: and we need a notice ...

E1Nei1: I have two other sites. End that first one with /tle instead of /lneil and you've got _The Libertarian Enterprise_. And there's smith2004.com a new one.

Major oz: well.........even Linus Pauling was thought to be a wacko (vitamin C). But, after his death, he was found to be correct.

AGplusone: if Dave can get the log posted, you might even link today's in your notice with the URL, not the AOL link ... just suggesting, mind you ...

AGplusone: Yes, Linus is a good example

E1Nei1: Of course Linus thought DNA has three strands ...

E1Nei1: Which is true of the lamviin in

AGplusone: and Aristotle thought women had 28 teeth

Major oz: Then, of course, there was Schotky (sp?)

E1Nei1: _Their Majesties' Bucketeers_

E1Nei1: Who?

AGplusone: rhymes with Trotsky

E1Nei1: And ...

Major oz: Inventor of the transistor, who spent the rest of his life trying to prove the inferiority of blacks.

Major oz: Nobel Laureate.

AGplusone: okay

E1Nei1: Oops. Well, didn't Isaac newton believe in astrology and numerology?

Major oz: Of course, Hanoi Jane is Born Again.........hee, hee, hee

E1Nei1: And she has some land she wants to sell you in Florida. too.

Major oz: Yeah, Ike was VERY alchemical.

AGplusone: AND Menckin as we're learning was for unfantomable reasons an anti-semite

E1Nei1: Simply proving that nobody's perfect.

Major oz: <AG is learning from Dr. Bill>

AGplusone: Remind me to tell you the time I told the Jane-Hayden kids off

E1Nei1: So tell

AGplusone: He used to have his office upstairs from me. She'd dump the kids on him on weekends when he used to work, so he'd talk them to the office with him. they'd run amok ... I chewed their asses once ... not a sound from upstairs

AGplusone: talk=take

AGplusone: and they never ran amok again

E1Nei1: Neat

AGplusone: Of course I had NOW in the other corner of the building ...

AGplusone: funny things happen in the former People's Republic of Santa Monica

E1Nei1: Hey, Ron, would you e-mail me your phone number in case I can't find this place again on Saturday?

Major oz: I just heard CA refered to as a Banana Republic

AGplusone: that's better than nimby

E1Nei1: No, bananas are too good for it.

Major oz: BANANA..........Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody

AGplusone: exactly

Major oz: Thought it so appropriate to the current "crisis" <

E1Nei1: Gents, I have to go, as my womenfolk need to use the phone. Thanks very much. I'll "see" you Saturday.

Major oz: See you then, perhaps

DavidWrightSr: Nite Neil. Thanks

AGplusone: Thank you ... even if I am a liberal democrat

Major oz: thanx

E1Nei1: Bye, guys.

AGplusone: so-styled

E1Nei1 has left the room.

AGplusone: G'nite ... pretty good for a small turnout

Major oz: RATS>>>>>>>>>I really wanted to be here on time for him.

AGplusone: We'll have to drag more in now for Saturday. I'll really try to get back in time, Oz. Naw.

DenvToday: Night everybody. See you all on Saturday.

Major oz: I will miss Sat, probably, as I have a Bluegrass Jam to play in.

AGplusone: G'nite Ron and thanks

DenvToday: Sure thing :-)

DenvToday: byeeee....

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: Goodnight, David ....

Major oz: Well, guys. I guess I will see you whenever.

DavidWrightSr: Night David

AGplusone: and good-night for NBC news ... see ya, Oz

Major oz: 'nite

Major oz has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially Closed at 11:58 P.M. EDT

AGplusone: <g>

AGplusone: you need a backup?>

DavidWrightSr: Nope Got it all. Thanks

AGplusone: or a front up ...

AGplusone: okay


Final End Of Discussion Log

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