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Saturday  4-29-2000

'The Man Who Sold The Moon' & 'Requiem'

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You have just entered room "AGplusone Chat19."

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

n1yqh a has entered the room.

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi everyone.

stephenveiss< has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: I'm here. Everybody's here.

BPRAL22169: Or, everybody's here who's here.

KultsiKN: Hello, all!

stephenveiss: Hello everyone.. Hello everybody, too!

Gaeltachta: Hi all.

BPRAL22169: I will be e-mailing our logs to Astyanax12 periodically.

ddavitt: Everybody who's anybody is here...

stephenveiss: ere, lemme go drag me mum on...

AGplusone: Hi,... got a private message for you Kultsi ... I'll e mail it (send me your mail please: .

ddavitt: Be gentle Stephen!

stephenveiss: <g>

siannon prime< has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Jani.

AGplusone: Hi,Jani, and hi everyone. Welcome.

siannon prime: Hello all! Am I late? Computer clock's gone pear-shaped....

ddavitt: No, still before 5.00/10.00

AGplusone: Does it appear a slightly pink color? Like elephants?

Gaeltachta: Nice turnout so far, even *without* a guest! :-)

siannon prime: 9.20, according to me :( Time-warp, obviously#

ddavitt: Yes, this is good.

siannon prime: David, that was crool. No pink elephants here - yet -

KultsiKN: David, my addy should be in your inbox any second...

AGplusone: Got it, Kultsi, message reply sent. Little administrative problem we're having with several people who'd like to join these chats ... maybe someone can help.

KultsiKN: We have this extended May Day this year... Lots of pink trunks...

ddavitt: When i hosted some of the AOLers couldn't get on at first; is that it?

Randyjj55: Now, for a non-commercial  announcement: Anybody here need a copy of Expanded Universe? I picked up an extra copy the other day when I was looking for a copy of Jurgen, by Cabell.

siannon prime: :LOL! Happy spring-tide/Beltane to you too, Kultsi!

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Nup. Jane sent me EU.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Basically that ... I've got invitations ... let me handle them first.

stephenveiss: We're fine.

Merfilly8: evening all

siannon prime: Hi Filly, Tawn

Gaeltachta: Stephen, what format do you like pics in?

TAWN3: Hi All.

BRSTAHL has entered the room.

siannon prime: Hi Bryan! Unpacked yet?

ddavitt: We are getting a good turn out...

stephenveiss: Any. I dont mind, but not really big bmps or tgas, please! ISP would have a fit :(

AGplusone: Hi, Bryan.

Gaeltachta: Sure :-)

BRSTAHL: Not quite? Boxes everywhere.

Randyjj55: We always get a good turnout - are numbers are pretty good also!

ddavitt: : That went wheee over my head?

BPRAL22169: Did you find Jurgen? I've got an extra copy -- pretty beat up, but it's one of the original McBride issues in the 20's.

ddavitt: It's available online isn't it?

siannon prime: Turnout as in chucking-out time?

ddavitt: project gutenberg

siannon prime: Thanks Jane, didn't know that

Randyjj55: Turnout as in our representation and conversation are always good, but sometimes there aren't as many people as at other times.

ddavitt: : PG is a good site; has all the out of copyright texts it can get hold of

stephenveiss: PG?

ddavitt: Got it Randy :-)

siannon prime: Ah. I thought it was either uniform or pub closing time <G>

ddavitt: Project gutenburg

stephenveiss: ah

siannon prime: Pay attention, S

AGplusone: I found my Jurgen in print from Oxford or one of the English companis ....

stephenveiss: Sorry. Mind wandering

ddavitt: I'll send you the URL later...

siannon prime: Thanks

Merfilly8: Better catch it Stephen

AGplusone: Okay ... drinks on the house while we settle down and I ask for a little help.

BPRAL22169: My reading copy is a G&D

AGplusone: We need some real bulletproof instructions from someone pretty good in dealing with Windows on how to use this thing.

AGplusone: Several are having trouble getting it to download, install and use ....

stephenveiss: Ill do that, if you want

Randyjj55: I did pick up a copy of Something about Eve, and I'll probably go down and get a copy of the Silver Stallion, sometime during the week...

AGplusone: :Problem is ... I don't know if they know whether it's downloaded or how to tell if it's downloaded ....

BPRAL22169: Rread Figures of Earth before Silver Stallion.

KultsiKN: Well, I sort of make my living outa computers...

ddavitt: Any similarity in the systems they use?

AGplusone: and when you download something using both Windows and AOL the download goes into a place that is 'defaulted' by AOL and I cannot tell them how to find it on a Windows machine.

AGplusone: The similarity is they're using AOL for a browser and it's the Windows version of AOL ....

ddavitt: Is that the same as you?

AGplusone: My 'problem' is I'm on a Macintosh which as you all know is different ...

ddavitt: Oh yes, i'd forgotten, so you can't give them instructions

AGplusone: So I cannot even visualize their problems. I have a hunch that they may have AIM downloaded correctly, but cannot install or find it.

Gaeltachta: Can they "search" or "find" AIM?

Randyjj55: What would you recommend as the first book in the series Bill? Figures of Earth, or just read that before Silver Stallion. I just had to buy Something About Eve, because of the way it started.

stephenveiss: : Another thing - one of my friends on AOL tried to use the new version of AIM (only one availible now), with AOL, but it refused to connect.

AGplusone: I dunno if they can search, and you're correct, Stephen, I think the download site may have problems.

BPRAL22169: Soemthing about Eve is an important book in the Biography -- but I think start with the "earliest" book -- Figures of Earch -- or the "latest," Cream of the Jest. FOE is mediaeval; CotJ is early 20th century, kinda.

TAWN3: Two things; "Downloads" default is under c/aol

BPRAL22169: But if you start with CotJ, move immediately to FoE

AGplusone: Fairly recently, because it's something that everyone hit either Thursday or Firday or today.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

stephenveiss: They managed to download it OK, it simply refused to connect to AIM, until they switched to an ordinary ISP.

TAWN3: Aim needs a connection open, so sign onto ISP before opening AIM.

ddavitt: Yes it does. i had it set up to come on automatically when i signed onto the net

Randyjj55: Tawn3, have you seen the Federation of American Scientists site recently? If not, you might want to visit...

AGplusone: :Ah, ha ... that may be one problem.

AGplusone: All the reports I'm getting are people using AOL as an ISP ...

BPRAL22169: The one I was trying to work with today couldn't get the download properly -- their installation didn't support something-or-other.

ddavitt: Look under "view" and chat room prefs

stephenveiss: Ignore me. Tawn is using the new version, so it must work...

ddavitt: And then general

KultsiKN: Open 'My Computer' with Shift-Enter, they'll open Explorer, which has a search function ('Tools'/'Search') -- if they know the name of the file (my guess - Aim95.exe) they'll find it, and they need only double click on the name in the search window to start the installation.

ddavitt: That gives you the option to make AIM connection automatic

BRSTAHL: I just downloaded the version I'm using this week, so it seems to work.

Merfilly8: AIM95.exe is correct

AGplusone: Okay ... what you are all answering is helpful ... what I need to do is write a "Step One" "Step Two" and if you have problems "Step Three" etc. This is a problem affecting at least five people I know including one whose name is Virginia ...

TAWN3: No Randy, I have not seen the FAS site.

AGplusone: and they'd all like to be in these chats!

ddavitt: That's a shame after we've been telling them hhow easy it is!

ddavitt: And we'd like to have them :-)

Randyjj55: Tawn, you might find it .... interesting .....

TAWN3: : I do not like the new version. They added too many bells and whistles.

BRSTAHL: They also may want to edit their preferences, and do an auto-configure on the connection. Click on My AIM, Edit My

Options, Edit Preferences, Connection, Autoconfigure.

AGplusone: So if anyone can start at step one and write it all out so even some dumb person on a Macintosh can understand ... I'm sure all the brilliant folk who use Windows can profit thereby.

BPRAL22169: Such snidery!

AGplusone: If all of you having experience did it, then mailed it to me, I could put together a comprehensive list and that might be the key.

KultsiKN: OK, will do.

stephenveiss: OK. Step one. Click Start. Step two. Click Find, then Files or Folders. Type "aim95.exe" in the named box, Select "My Computer" in the look in box. Step three. Click 'Find Now' Step four. Double click on the file it finds. If it doesn't find any files, it had not downloaded correctly.

Randyjj55: I think part of the problem is that there is several ways to "end up" with AIM on your machine. You can download it separately, or if you upgrade Netscrape, you will end up with it, or if you sign on to AOL, you'll end up with. And of course, each installation is a little different...

AGplusone: :So, if you've some time, write me an e mail this week, all of you who can, please.

TAWN3: I recommend NOT to make AIM connection automatic. Simply minimize aol or otther ISP when you want to use it and click on the AIM icon. ONCE the ISP is open. Otherwise, problems and conflicts ensue.

AGplusone: That is part of it, Randy ...

BRSTAHL: I just ran it from the AOL site.

TAWN3: OK Randy, I will check it.

AGplusone: With 'minimize' Tawn3, please bear in mind that some don't know how to do that correctly. And I don't even know what you folk do.

AGplusone: Bryan that is helpful. Glad to know that it's working now.

ddavitt: i don't minimise; just click on it in one of the pull downs when i want it

AGplusone: Okay ... enough of that ....

Randyjj55: Now its time for the requiem for the man who sold AIM

AGplusone: :Jane, your long post was helpful .... why don't you start the ball rolling on The Man Who Sold the Moon, and Requiem?

siannon prime: Isn't minimise the little box with the minus sign? Or have I been doing it all wrong

AGplusone: First question ....

ddavitt: When you say things like that I get finger tied ,<g>

BRSTAHL: Of course, I don't know if anything I say makes sense, it's after midnight here.

AGplusone: [dunno, Jani ... me I'm just a poor dumb Macintosh owner]

siannon prime: (shame)

TAWN3: Yes Siannon

AGplusone: You and Kultsi must be in close to the same Time zone

KultsiKN: Jani, that's it.

ddavitt: Does any one else see harriman's story as being tragic or happy?

KultsiKN: Two hours

TAWN3: I saw it as Realistic.

ddavitt: I mean, I always thought it was sad but I'm not so sure; better to travel hopefully than arrive...

AGplusone: Happy ... in the sense of perhaps Stevenson?

Gaeltachta: Both. Like in real life.

ddavitt: He may not have liked the Moon; but having the dream made him happy, gave him a goal

ddavitt: And he got there in the end.

stephenveiss: I saw it as happy - he managed to live his dream. But, like RL, not in circumstances he liked

ddavitt: Yes; he wanted to go there straight away; be a pioneer

BRSTAHL: It tragedy in the good sense, not giving up even when you're defeated.

TAWN3: I saw something very Japanese in it. Like the 47 Ronin. It is the trying that gives one honor.

ddavitt: But was he really the pioneering sort?

siannon prime: He was more of a facilitator

AGplusone: Probably not at his age

ddavitt: Wasn't his place back on earth, keeping things running smoothly?

TAWN3: Worf would understand. :-)

siannon prime: He gave up his dream, really, so others could have theirs

Merfilly8: Opening the dream for others, so to speak?

ddavitt: That was the best contribution he could make

ddavitt: Yes Filly.

stephenveiss: He didnt see it like that, But the other characters did

ddavitt: He was standing there holding the door open; if he went through, the door would close

siannon prime: Yes Tawn, I agree

Randyjj55: I saw the title as multilayered - The man who sold the moon, so he could be the man who sold the idea of the moon, so he could go to the moon.

AGplusone: :I ask again: "happy" in the RL Stevensonian sense?

Gaeltachta: Someone like Harriman should have still been able to wangle it somehow. He was pretty shrewd.

ddavitt: And once he'd sold it, it wasn't his....

ddavitt: I find that peom a bit hard to take david..

BRSTAHL: At the end, yes he was happy. He finally won in the thing that counted to him.

AGplusone: Why ... it's beautiful!

ddavitt: Gladly live yes but gladly die? 'Do not go gentle into that good night"

Gaeltachta: He didn't get much time to enjoy the fruits of his labor.

siannon prime: Jane, there's a ref in Betty about RLS whistling in the dark -remember?

AGplusone: Imagine a lifelong invalid dying after creating world famous art ....

ddavitt: happy resignation at dying isn't my style

ddavitt: Yes I think so jani..the TB book

Randyjj55: It is interesting that there are several parallels between this story and SiaSL

AGplusone: :vicarious adventures beloved by boys of that generation and ours

Merfilly8: My first intro to Harriman came through TSBTS, and I found Maureen's accounting of him to be sad. When I went back and read these two stories, I did not share that thought...I believed he did find his happiness.

ddavitt: The ones about the poem and the carnival?

ddavitt: Or others?

ddavitt: I felt I was stretching a bit there

BRSTAHL: His whole life had been geared towards one thing and he achieved it. It was his victory, and then he could rest.

Randyjj55: Those, and also some of the concepts about money.

siannon prime: : It was a bit of a compromise, though - he wanted to live on the Moon, didn't he?

AGplusone: And how close are Harriman's, and Stevenson's (and dare I say it, tubercular Heinlein's) situation?

ddavitt: A useful tool to be used but not worshipped?

Randyjj55: Although the money one might not be obvious at first.

ddavitt: : Harriman and Heinlein were both stopped from realsing their dreams...but it worked out for the best for both of them

siannon prime: Randy, the money aspect reminded me of Johann

AGplusone: Oh, think they both thought so, all the time, Jane?

ddavitt: Heinlein as author was unique; in the navy he would have been successful no doubt but one of several

ddavitt: But that's just MO; maybe H always regretted his naval career...I dunno

TAWN3: Does anyone believe in the Invisible Hand of God?

Randyjj55: Consider this story and SiaSL, and TEFL. What IS money? It is just an abstract concept that allows us to get things done. Remember Lazarus as the Boondock Banker, and how Mike, in SiaSL had the revelation about money - that it was a binding together, with obligations and intertwinings?

ddavitt: : I'm (selfishly) glad he wrote instead :-)

siannon prime: I've read the Stand... :)

AGplusone: The poignacy is the little boy looking up at the moon saying "I want it" or words to that effect, and realizing before he's 30 he can never have it .... suppose Stevenson did the same thing when he was a child, bedridden?

ddavitt: What was Stevenson's own ambition?

ddavitt: The court scene reminded me of Johann jani

AGplusone: And Harriman at the height of his powers ... knows he's too 'weighty' to go ... ?

Gaeltachta: RLS - To live?

Randyjj55: Also, in Requiem, Harriman knew what the effect of his going to the moon would be, didn't matter, he wanted to go  there....

siannon prime: : Randy, a lot of the dealings in Moon seem a bit devious compared to Mike's philosophy

ddavitt: I don't know much about his life...

AGplusone: I'd think so, Sean. He was an infant invalid.

ddavitt: I remember the poem in A Child's garden of verses about being in bed ill

ddavitt: "land of the Counterpane"

BRSTAHL: Heinlein seemed to have empathy for all the author's who took up writing because illness left them no other career.

Randyjj55: Yes Jani, and when Mike became more "worldly" he was able to look at money in the same way as Harriman. Again, not as something to treasure and possess, but a thing to be used to attain one's ends...

ddavitt: : I thought the links between the stories and Ginny's intro to the book requiem were marked.

Gaeltachta: Did Harriman directly quote or mention RLS anywhere? I can't remember?

ddavitt: maureen seems to have some of harriman's financial acumen

Merfilly8: But then Brian did as well, to me

ddavitt: Prudence penny column and all that

siannon prime: Randy - yes but both Johann and  Harriman were hard so-and-so's. Mike didn't have the human training in dirty dealings

ddavitt: brian...hmmm, i think maureen did a lot of it...but I just don't like Brian :-)

AGplusone: Wonder how wide RLS's dreams really were? Randy: the obligations theme is certainly important. Probably more in this short story TMWSTM, because really, it's the primary focus--a self-alloted obligation by Harriman--not one of the many in TEFL or SiaSL. I agee with you.

ddavitt: Look at that graph she did of household expenses

ddavitt: I don't think he did Sean

siannon prime: Jane, agreed. Brian is a pain. Maureen is a much more centred person

BRSTAHL: Maureen seemed to represent women of ability with the traditional turn of the century choices. Except in rare cases, they were at home with families, no matter how talented in other ways.

Merfilly8: I din't have a problem with Brian until Lazarus and he were discussing the fertility cycle

ddavitt: She had vastly more potential than he did; hampered by the time she lived in, his chauvinism and her desire to keep him sweet at the expense of her own developement

AGplusone: [sorry, wrong room Mike ... and I didn't see you come in]

Randyjj55: Jani, I think Mike was as hard a so-and-so as Johann and Harriman, it was  ust that the "packaging" was different. In the end, there is nothing harder/colder than doing what needs to be done, because it needs to be done, without sentimentality, or anger, or other emotion. It's a little easier to see when you've been in the military in certain situations.

ddavitt: : I liked him at first but i'd gone off him long before the business with marion

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: Brian is a little tangential ...

ddavitt: Talking of spouses, what about charlotte?

ddavitt: I looked and she was on the point of filing for separation at one point in MWSTM

Merfilly8: Supportive in one, and not in the other

AGplusone: Harriman's hardness is really not an emphasis--hardness towards others--it's more of a discipline to himself that finally compels him to abandon his dream of personally going, isn't it?

ddavitt: Why is she more hostile in the longer (later) story?

TAWN3: I suggest that "The Invisible Hand of God" is present in many of RAJH's works. I think he sometimes consciously thought of this. I further suggest that "The Invisible Hand" was at work in RAH's real world life as well, although that is strictly speculation and he or Ginny may not agree (or have agreed).

ddavitt: Well, in R it's sadi she never shared his dream but in MWS she actively tried to wreck it

TAWN3: Getting back to an early thought (sorry,  took time to write).

BRSTAHL: What was RAH's attitude to his first wife between the two stories? That may have had alot to do with it.

ddavitt: I thought that...

TAWN3: Interesting point!

ddavitt: Shades of Grace farnham

Merfilly8: Charlotte as a reflection of his own womanly troubles

ddavitt: supportive when times were hard, success brings out the bad qualities

AGplusone: Wife and husbands can be hostile at one point in the marriage and less so later. Everyone doesn't get divorced as quickly ... as today. In '39 you stuck unto death ... by '49 perhaps things had changed.

KultsiKN: Somehow you get an impression of bitterness in RAH's letters in Grumbles...

ddavitt: I don't think they did divorce but it's pretty plain in man that the marriage is dead

ddavitt: What do they have in common?

Merfilly8: Point taken. Know an older couple (70+) who have been separated twenty years, refuse to divorce

ddavitt: Then there's the dig about children; she would'nt go for tests on them both...

Gaeltachta: Charlotte's only real crime was not sharing his dream, not much of a crime really. But Harriman wouldn't or couldn't compromise.

Merfilly8: A reflection of the times of the stories

BPRAL22169< has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Thanks.

ddavitt: She had no right to stop him though.

siannon prime: 2 sorts of marriages in RAH - the Grace/Charlott/Alice Douglas type, and the *other* sort. Some monogamies are good marriages, tho - Man who Travelled in Elephants, for eg

TAWN3: I was wondering about similarities with that too (children).

ddavitt: Her own lifestyle wasn't seriously threatened; she should have trusted him, been supportive

AGplusone: Maybe just a change in attitude ... how plain. And maybe a reflection of the nature of realization in RAH of whatever the problems became during the early 1940s.

Gaeltachta: She had rights. Whether we agree with them is another thing.

Randyjj55: In one sense, MWSTM/Requiem are also tales about boundaries. There are the physical ones to overcome - getting enough resources (often a boundary) to build up a mechanism to provide the means to overcome the boundary between earth and the moon. Then, there were the ethical boundaries that are present in so many of Heinlein's work... What is allowable behavior in reaching one's goals? Who decides?

AGplusone: :When does a man have a right to sacrifice the comfort of his family for a dream?

ddavitt: marriage is a partnership; ddin't seem like she was contributing anything

siannon prime: Randy, isn't it a bit scary that big business was deciding, whatever their motives?

ddavitt: Depends on the dream...

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

Merfilly8: Marriage can devolve to a responsibility, though, when common interests are lost

Gaeltachta: They had all those servants. She was made obsolete.

ddavitt: If it's to escape a repressive regime...or fight an evil

AGplusone: Maybe she worked like a dog like Grace during the hard times and felt that she'd complied with the bargain, and--you'll note--there's no indication she had become a drunk like Grace.

BPRAL22169: It's not big business -- it's the obsession of a single man who interacts with his milieu. That milieu happens to be money.

ddavitt: Getting to the Moon can be seen as a service to humanity; that's worth some sacrifices i suppose

BPRAL22169: I had an insight at the Thursday chat that Harriman in "Requiem" was a portrait of an artist "used up" in the service of his art.

TAWN3: She did contribute much Harriman thought so at the start of the story when he first goes to tell her he wants to trim expenses. She stuck with him when they had nothing, and helped build it up.

ddavitt: No, not an alcoholic, just obssessed with material goods

AGplusone: She's not undermining him every day. It's over this one thing: DD is 'throwing everything away' and leaving no provisions for her. Not even life insurance

BPRAL22169: very Cabellian.

Gaeltachta: I wonder how they first met? Did he tell her his dreams then? Would have been fairer.

Randyjj55: It's always scary when forces we have no control over, have control over us. That's why Harriman worked so hard to maintain control - he didn't want to give up his dream, and almost anything he did was valid, if he achieved his dream.

ddavitt: : I can see why she felt slighted.

AGplusone: "obsessed?" doesn't want to be a bankrupt widow and her age? I don't blame her.

ddavitt: She had a rival

Randyjj55: Yes, the moon;

ddavitt: : An intangible one

Gaeltachta: Another woman? The Moon?

Merfilly8: one she was always second to

ddavitt: But she was disloyal...not good.

TAWN3: The Moon is a female archetype in many ways.

ddavitt: She knew how much it meant to him, wouldn't even listen or trust him

Gaeltachta: Happens all the time, both ways. Not right though.

siannon prime: She was I think the materialistic balance to his idealism, to an extent. A lot of women of that generation stayed home and that was their world, while the men went out and fought dragons in the workplace or whatever

ddavitt: Agreed; her own theatre of operations was being threatened

siannon prime: Yes, and in the end her own livelihood

BRSTAHL: Also, remember, going to the moon was crazy. Remember Harriman buying rights for ten dollars from his own board of directors. And he wanted to throw everything into it.

Randyjj55: And how hard it is to fight a dream, something that you can't fight, because it is intangible, malleable, potentially unobtainable, always there in front of you, just beyond your reach

siannon prime: : She would support him when they were both young, but she didn't want him throwing away a comfortable retirement

ddavitt: Yes, I feel sorry for her; just think she should have stuck by him

ddavitt: George did.

siannon prime: I'm not sure I would have, not at her age

ddavitt: How old was she?

siannon prime: George was a fellow bloke :)

AGplusone: I don't see it ... jealous, but self-protective rather than selfish. She's expressed her opinion on this thing over and over and he's always ignored her! A 'partnership' like heck! She's run over just as George is.

ddavitt: Not that old; 50's maybe?

siannon prime: Old enough to have no chance of starting her own career if he didn't leave her provided for...

TAWN3: Harriman was a lot like Don Quixote in many ways, except his windmills were ultimately attainable.

BRSTAHL: But it was later revealed that Maureen was convincing George.

ddavitt: harriman was not your normal man; he was a speacial person; they're always hard to live with.

siannon prime: Good point Bill.

AGplusone: Difference is George is willing to bet on the long chance because he believes DD can do it, bottom line.

siannon prime: Bryan. sorry

AGplusone: A very good point, Bryan ... it really fills a motivation point.

ddavitt: That was a bit sneaky of heinlein, working it into TSBTS like that <g>

ddavitt: retroactive rationalisation!!

siannon prime: nice phrase

ddavitt: Thank you :-)

BPRAL22169: It made the Future History timeline a self-fulfilling prophecy, a circle in time.

AGplusone: Because I felt George was really a bit of a snook, a 'believer' in Man, whereas in To Sail, there's another weight in there.

ddavitt: true....all you zombies like

siannon prime: So RAH thought there had to be more than just loyalty in George?

Merfilly8: But Future History is supposed to be an ouroborus(sp)

ddavitt: But have to say that H can;t have known that when he wrote MWSTM surely?

AGplusone: Nothing like a sexy girlfriend to motivate you, Jani :-D

siannon prime: Yes, maybe he was disattisfied with G as a character

ddavitt: Just thought how we can date Harriman; by the comet

AGplusone: Particularly one who puts her money where yours is .... when you roll the dice.

siannon prime: David, was that a ref to the moon or did I miss something? :)

Randyjj55: Again, it could be Heinlein expressing the idea that an individual is important - in this case, an individual behind the scenes (Maureen) leveraging another person (George) so that the key man (Harriman) could be the rugged individualist....

AGplusone: :Reference to To Sail. Maureen put the money the family had into bailing out Harriman

siannon prime: Oh, Sail - yes, got it now!

ddavitt: He was small in 1910; say 5.

BPRAL22169: Maybe also he is saying even rugged individualists stand in a social context.

AGplusone: Say "3"

ddavitt: Moon rocket, 1978 in the FH timeline

BPRAL22169: Not necessarily on the shoulders of giants only.

ddavitt: He was quite old then....

BPRAL22169: Heinlein's age.

Randyjj55: John Glennish ...

siannon prime: : Maureen is a real power behind the throne, whereas Charlotte is just dead weight?

ddavitt: Does that tie in with maureen's version?

ddavitt: Heinlein = Harriman I think in many ways

AGplusone: Maureen's quite a bit older than George Strong

ddavitt: But he doesn't know that...

Merfilly8: But he beleived her to be near his own age

ddavitt: Yes.

AGplusone: and he doesn't really know it, part of the masquerade

AGplusone: if I could spell

Merfilly8: Maureen only hears of Harriman finally achieving his dream, as in an Urban Legend

BRSTAHL: IIRC, she was pretending to be twenty years younger than her own age.

Merfilly8: my spelling is atrocious tonight

ddavitt: But Harriman would've been in early 70's and presumably charlotte similar; that doesn't match with the way he seems in the story

Randyjj55: But Maureen had two advantages - knowledge from Woodie, and a long term perspective that comes with a long life....

AGplusone: :Yes, but tomorrow yours will be better .... :-) and my spelling will stay the same ... one thing this room doesn't have built in is spell check.

ddavitt: In that, he seems to be the same age as he would've been when the story is written ( if that makes sense)

ddavitt: Would slow us down too much!

Randyjj55: Are we in the seventh inning stretch?

BRSTAHL: : It appears so.

Randyjj55: s--t--r--e--c--h

KultsiKN: : You guys are talking foreign

AGplusone: The "long term perspective" that comes from long life, comparatively, applies to Harriman's reaction to his wife's likely treachery too, doesn't it, Randy? They're apparently got back together in the years before Requiem, and he swept away the memory.

Randyjj55: whoops! the second 't' popped out...

AGplusone: :Sounds good ... five minute break for coffee and other drinks from the bar, Jani?

ddavitt: My david has just told me I did it when we saw the BlueJaysa play at the Skydome..

ddavitt: Man comes onto the field and you all stand up and stretch ( literally)

ddavitt: I'd forgotten...

AGplusone: Know how that started, Jane?


AGplusone: Hoover, or one of the American Presidents, attended a game ....

BRSTAHL: Traditionally you sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame", then order more beer.

Randyjj55: Well, selective memory is a key to a "successful" marriage, as well as a long term perspective.. That's what commitment is all about - whether commitment to your spouse or your dream, or maybe in the end, to both.

Gaeltachta: :Definitely coffee for me. I need to be up earlier for this chat nowadays.

AGplusone: back then, Americans all stood up in respect when President got up ....

AGplusone: figuring that he was about to leave early one day when Hoover got up to stretch for seventh, everyone in the stands got up.

AGplusone: It became a tradition ....

ddavitt: :-) I've told David.

ddavitt: Funny how we do it in canada then...

ddavitt: Anyone seen the new Molson commercial <g>

Gaeltachta: Nup.

ddavitt: Probably only show it in canada...very funny and inflammatory...

ddavitt: man stands up and gives a speech about being a canadian

BRSTAHL: Let me check, some one pointed me to a website with it on. I'll see if I can find it.

KultsiKN: That thing about Hoover reminds me of one time at a theatre..

AGplusone: American traditions ... bet they don't rub the spot when they get hit by a ball, either, in Canada .... tell about the Molson commercial, Jane. We won't start a war over it, probably.

ddavitt: "And it's pronounced zed, not zee, zed...."

ddavitt: My name is Joe, I don't eat blubber, i'm not a lumberjack, i have a PM not a President....

BRSTAHL: It's at: -am.html

ddavitt: Goes on, as he gets more and more worked up...very rousing, with land of Hope and glory in the background

AGplusone: And don't say "ay" instead of "uh" too, I betcha ....

ddavitt: thanks Bryan; I've saved that.

ddavitt: I think you mean "eh" David :-)

AGplusone: I'm going to take a look as soon as we've done.

AGplusone: Regional variation ....

KultsiKN: We were all sitting, waiting for the play to start ('twas Gyrano, BTW,) when some late-comers drop in: Mr Ahtisaari & others. We just kept sitting. (Mr. Ahtisaari was our president at that time...)

ddavitt: I've been boasting all day that I'm in the Bodleian thanks to Bill. People in the UK are very impressed. Thanks Bill :-)

AGplusone: Speaking of sites: take a look at this approach, including the message board link in it:

BPRAL22169: You're quite welcome. I'm impressed, too.

AGplusone: Another group from the old bunch which has bailed from AOL or in the process of it.

ddavitt: Anything to do with the Bookworm who comes on the chats?

AGplusone: Yes. Her group

ddavitt: I've bookmarked it too.

AGplusone: Guess that's an incentive to write one of those articles I keep failing to write Bill ...

AGplusone: Okay, how about Randy starts off this hour with a question on Requiem or MWSTM?

siannon prime: Sorry all, I was away there for a while - Steve prnzofthvs just sent a message (it's on the ng as well) to say that his nephew has been mugged and almost killed in California. I've told him that I know everyone here will be sending good wishes and prayers

AGplusone: Absolutely!

ddavitt: Oh that's awful news jani

siannon prime: He's in ICU, had one op on his brain and awaiting another, Steve says it's an excellent hospital and best care possible

ddavitt: Tell him we're all hoping he recovers

KultsiKN: Oh goodness, David: a site with bells and whistles...

BPRAL22169: Ditto. Where in California, do you know?

siannon prime: Anyway, sorry to interrupt, but I was a little upset (I'm fond of Steve)

AGplusone: [LOL]

AGplusone: So'm I ...

Gaeltachta: We are all upset, I'm sure. I know I am.

ddavitt: Send him my best wishes

BRSTAHL: Important news isn't an interuption.

Merfilly8: I just IM'd him

stephenveiss: Yes, best wishes from me. Not an interruprt ion al all...

ddavitt: Yes, nice thing is that these chat rooms don't cut you off

siannon prime: Don't know exactly where, but as I said he's posted it, so I'm sure he will be heartened by the thread

ddavitt: important messages can still get through

AGplusone: Hope he's recovered when Steve makes that trip out here. I hope to have a dinner in LA area when Steve comes thru and hopefully will get a few off AFH to join in.

Gaeltachta: Wish I could join you all.

ddavitt: have to organise a Canada meet; I have at leat two within reach of me

AGplusone: Go to a nice place in the Marina overlooking the boats and all.

siannon prime: Steve is there in July, so by then should be sorted one way or another :(

AGplusone: And send photos to Stephen proving that OJIII isn't the ugliest old

coot in this bunch.

ddavitt: When one of us wins the lottery we can organise an afh world meet :-)

BPRAL22169: Hey - we could have a convention!

BPRAL22169: Bad thought, Double-plus ungood thoughtcrime!

Randyjj55: Question? How about we tackle this question of "greed" that pops up in Requiem, (just like in IWFNE) and in MWSTM? What is greed the actions of Harriman's relatives or Harriman doing anything necessary to meet his dream?

Merfilly8: : whhooooo hoooo! World RAH fans unite

siannon prime: <prissily> spells to get money aren't allowed :)

siannon prime: Or I would <BG>

ddavitt: Thjough I'm nearly there; someone deposited 21,000 dollars to our account last week and the bank hasn't traced it yet.

AGplusone: You're invited ... want to organize it Bill. I was thinkingThe Warehouse ....

BPRAL22169: That raises an interesting point: other than the obvious, WHY aren't spells to get money allowed?

ddavitt: Told them about it straight away ( after I picked myself up)

BPRAL22169: Do we have a date-presumptive?

stephenveiss: Coz it dissolves when it hits iron, of course <G>

ddavitt: Been a week now and it's still ther...v odd

Merfilly8: Greed....I see a semantics issue soon

BPRAL22169: Okay, other than the OTHER obvious!

siannon prime: To do with balance and equilibrium. I think the Crowleyans have a different attitude tho

Randyjj55: Oh, that's probably my money, Jane. Thanks for watching it, could you send it back now?

Randyjj55: : :-)

ddavitt: : Hmm...why don't I belive you <g>

AGplusone: I think the motivation of profit is the only thing that drove colonialization, Randy ...

BPRAL22169: If you're that good a magician, you get it back yourself...

siannon prime: <G> What money was that, Randy? <innocent smile>

ddavitt: Relatives were selfish; not their money until he dies ( if then)

AGplusone: and space exploration, of our system, anyway, is colonialization without perhaps, natives to enslave.

ddavitt: just like JSB

siannon prime: I never said I was a good *magician*, just that I was a *good* magician...

ddavitt: Nice distinction

BPRAL22169: Very good distinction. LOL

siannon prime: I will get back on topic now....

stephenveiss: Whats a topic?

stephenveiss: <g>

ddavitt: Love of money is the root of all evil is the correct quote is't it?

AGplusone: Relatives more than selfish ... relatives were thieves until he was dead.

BPRAL22169: Yes - but not a correct HEINLEIN quote.

ddavitt: Money itself can be a good or at least neutral thing

AGplusone: Not ever.

ddavitt: can't I quote from anyone else?! :-)

AGplusone: Back to the pecularly Martian concept of 'money' in SiaSL

Randyjj55: Before we tackle greed, try this one - What is money, in the Heinlein sense?

ddavitt: : "I'm spending my children's inheritance"

ddavitt: Power?

Merfilly8: A Means to an end, mostly

Gaeltachta: "A means to an end"?

TAWN3: Catching up, please send him my best wishes siannon, although I don't really know him, I have read his posts.

AGplusone: Wish that first book had been printed, eh, Bill ...?

BRSTAHL: A means of keeping score.

Randyjj55: Close...

Gaeltachta: :"He who dies with the most money wins?"

BPRAL22169: Yes -- though it was pretty bad, by all accounts, even as that kind of thing works. And we do know the economic theory.

BPRAL22169: Social Credit.

Merfilly8: Money. To most of the Heinlein heroes, money is something to be used to further ones' dreams, family, or desires

AGplusone: Is there anything in particular in Beyond this Horizon that defines 'money' ....?

ddavitt: It's something that is easy to get if you want it enough

BPRAL22169: I don't think it would hurt to say I ran across some correspondence in the files about trying to get it published in 1938 and 1939 byt he Social Credit people.

ddavitt: Which book?

BPRAL22169: For Us, The Living

AGplusone: And the Social Credit people? Were they part of EPIC?

ddavitt: Oh, that one; what was it about?

BPRAL22169: No -- collateral group.

AGplusone: 'kay

BPRAL22169: Nobody really knows. The ms. was destroyed.

ddavitt: Didn't H ever say?

AGplusone: But it dealt with economic theory ...

BPRAL22169: It appears Social Credit was one of the principal "dialogue partners" in EPIC NEWS.

Randyjj55: Think of Heinlein as the engineer - Money is a feedback mechanism, an information stream. It tells you something about what is going on. Again, go back to Lazarus the Banker. He burned all the "money" but it still had an existence in the books he kept. And as Mike said ... let me find the quote, brb

ddavitt: : Did he high grade it for BTH then?

BPRAL22169: That's my guess.

AGplusone: some have suggested that

ddavitt: I don't like BTH; too much lecturing, not enough story.

BPRAL22169: Gifford has a theory he mined it for ITGO, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

AGplusone: And possibly for TEFL

ddavitt: I think H learned to balance the medicine and the jam better later

Merfilly8: Dumb moment---ITGO?

ddavitt: If This Goes On

Merfilly8: duh

BPRAL22169: "If This Goes On--"

AGplusone: What about Coventry?

ddavitt: in revolt in 2100

ddavitt: The Covenant?

Merfilly8: thanks

BPRAL22169: No way of telling about "Coventry" -- little economics in it.

ddavitt: Or the societies inside Coventry?

AGplusone: Isn't there something in there when MacKinnon starts out into 'coventry' about worth and social credit

BPRAL22169: One of the things I am absolutely astounded over is the thought that the societies beyond the barrier in "Coventry" are -- our world.

AGplusone: in that "RV" of his ....

ddavitt: Lots of satirical humour in that early part of the story

AGplusone: In a way, the one he goes into is capitalism run amok along with big government as a partner ... a partner with his hand up to the elbow in your pocket.

ddavitt: Coventry was a scary place; Purgatory maybe

BRSTAHL: Of course, there's the pioneering attitude in Coventry versus true pioneering in TEFL.

siannon prime: I thought the guy in Coventry adapted a bit *too* quickly, after his first reaction to the place

BRSTAHL: High tech that's not understood versus really making it yourself.

ddavitt: limiations of a short story maybe?

AGplusone: MacKinnon thinks he was granted a 'social worth' by birthright, doesn't he? But he hasn't "earned" a thing has he?

ddavitt: Yes, he had it way too easy

ddavitt: Got the plans to a blaster because of shatred heritage. ha!

siannon prime: Bit like the aristocracy

ddavitt: thinks he can make steel...

siannon prime: Birthright, no effort

AGplusone: So, DD Harriman has really 'earned' his social worth, like Johann .... and unlike MacKinnon.

ddavitt: arrogant through ignorance

ddavitt: Yes, DD wasn't a fraud

BRSTAHL: "The World Owes Me a Living" attitude in full force, though he doesn't realize he has it.

ddavitt: Like Bill in Cat?

Merfilly8: exactly

KultsiKN: Yup

ddavitt: And Priscilla in To sail?

siannon prime: How would you know you had it, though, if no-one tells you different?

BPRAL22169: I just skimmed that sectionof "Coventry" between his getting ready for the barrier and being robbed, and I couldn't find any reference to "social" credit-- he buys some material on credit. But that's all.

AGplusone: Heinlein believed that the aristocracy had to earn social credit by noblisse oblige, didn't he? And MacKinnon does that, eventually, with sacrifice.

ddavitt: She was so bratty...

AGplusone: But the thoughts about heritage .... birthright are there.

BRSTAHL: The judge tried to tell him differently, but he didn't want to listen.

TAWN3: I like RAH's lecturing. It taught me so much as a young person.

Merfilly8: David's comment is seen in Stuart La Joie (sp) of TMIAHM

siannon prime: David, the aristocracy think their "credit" is divine right to rule the peasants.

Gaeltachta: Yes Tawn. Me too.

siannon prime: At least in UK

AGplusone: Some did. Maybe the late Lord Lovatt, the one in the white sweater didn't.

ddavitt: But it's laid on too thickly in BTH; especially the genetics bit

BPRAL22169: Ah - I see: a different definition of "social credit," not the economic scheme.

TAWN3: Good points about $ Randy (still! catching up!)

BPRAL22169: Eugenics was a very big thing at that time.

AGplusone: Lovat, sorry, all you Frasers out there.

siannon prime: Well, put it this way, they are not about to sacrifice the King in order to keep the land safe anymore <g>

ddavitt: It shows; control naturals and such

AGplusone: <g>

BRSTAHL: Eugenics was a popular idea until it was associated was Nazism.

ddavitt: Quite a repulsive system of class structure

BPRAL22169: It's still something every bright high school student thinks up for himself.

AGplusone: "social Darwinism"?

Randyjj55: Okay, found it - Then suddenly, with grokking so blinding that he trembled, he understood money. These pretty pictures and bright medallions were not "money"; they were symbols for an idea which spread through these people, all through their world.

Randyjj55: : But things were not money, any more than water shared was growing-closer. Money was an idea, as abstract as an Old One's thoughts- money was a great structured symbol for balancing and healing and growing closer.Mike was dazzled with the magnificent beauty of money.

Randyjj55: : The flow and change an countermarching of symbols was beautiful in small, reminding him of games taught nestlings to encourage them to reason and grow, but it was the totatlity that dazzled him, an entire world reflected in one dynamic symbol structure. (SiaSL, 226)

ddavitt: : I rememeber that bit..

BPRAL22169: Yes - money as a medium of communication. That really shows H's social credit leanings.

AGplusone: 'balancing and healing and growing closer' .... interesting.

Randyjj55: That is why I think of it as a feedback mechanism (can't take the engineer out of the boy).

AGplusone: :Yes!

BPRAL22169: Probably why the notion appealed to him.

ddavitt: Initially surely it was just a method of simplifing barter?

AGplusone: So society depends on 'social credit' and money is the 'root of all society'?

KultsiKN: Another aspect of money was in TMIAHM: most money is bookkeeping.

Merfilly8: Heinlein seems to have accepted meny, and being rich, was not inherrantly evil; it was merely a tool to be used

ddavitt: No need to bring your cow along; carry a coin instead.

Gaeltachta: I can relate Harriman to the architect/chief engineer of the first big pyramid, including finding the money to do the job. While not free-enterprise, a huge task was completed with many workers.

siannon prime: Ah - money as used properly! In a Marxian sense, fair distribution of wealth *would* be a means of achieving healing and balance, wouldn't it?

Randyjj55: And so, if you are trying to achieve a "worthwhile" end, and you have to modify the feedback path in some fashion, well, that is just good engineering....

BRSTAHL: : Actually, it was originally just barter; just a set amount of precious metal.

ddavitt: But lighter than the cow :-)

siannon prime: I am not a Marxist, btw. Just in case anyone was about to hit me...

Merfilly8: <gotta go, storming here!>

ddavitt: More portable...more standardised

Merfilly8 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Actually it was quite an intellectual achievement -- to realize that anything that has "value" is somehow interconvertible.

ddavitt: Wouldn't dream of it Jani :-)

siannon prime: phew

BRSTAHL: But it originally had to have value in and of itself; it wasn't until well into this century that people accepted the idea of money without a pile of gold.

ddavitt: Yes, seems like it should have been a Just So story...

AGplusone: I liked Chico myself, better than Grocho

AGplusone: 'u'?

Randyjj55: No, You!

TAWN3: : Ouuhh, Marx. What "is" fair distribution of wealth siannon?

ddavitt: Shows their good sense Bryan!

siannon prime: I like Harpo. So quiet, just as a man should be <gdr>

AGplusone: :-x

AGplusone: ... not even getting close to that one.

Randyjj55: Then, I want to throw in one other concept, from another of our "favorite" books - Starship Trooper, and see if I can tie this all together.

AGplusone: :GA

ddavitt: Sounds interesting...

siannon prime: Tawn, I don't understand Marx, I'm not that bright. But a system which doesn't put ninety percent of the wealth into the hands of five percent of the population has to be a good starting point.

ddavitt: Yes, give it all to me, I can handle it....

siannon prime: She means the dosh :)

Randyjj55: Why is the approach that Harriman used a good one? Yes, it is a trick question. Because, like the government of the Federation, it worked, for the ultimate good of society.

TAWN3: : Salt was money at one point. Sea shells have been money. Many things have represented the "concept" of "this represents something else, value for labor or effort, which can be exchanged". But you need something rare or universally agreed on for it to work.

AGplusone: [but I will have that glass of Remy soon, Jani.]

ddavitt: But was it the only viable option?

ddavitt: Harriman thought so but how much of that was his own personal ambition?

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: Bit hard carrying cows around.

ddavitt: Paper just doesn't do it does it?

AGplusone: Not if you're a Campbell ... and wimmen too!

Gaeltachta: Here is your change Madam, a duck.

ddavitt: No, have a tip, keep the feathers

Gaeltachta: Ta!

ddavitt: :-)

Randyjj55: Going back to ST, lots of things "might" work, but we know that in Harriman's timeline, that approach did work, whereas in our timeline, we've kind of dropped the ball, to date.

AGplusone: :<--- Campbell, seven generations back.

BRSTAHL: Well, there was the Sumerian contract idea. A sealed jar with minatures of whatever was owed to you and date for it to be opened.

siannon prime: Tawn, I agree that "money" as Mike said is our symbol for cowrie shells or whatever. But when social status and material gain are derived from the amount of shells you have, then it's time to look at how the shells are distributed. Not the same with cows or crops or weapons, which have intrinsic value

ddavitt: Could H have interested the government without making the Moon US property? We managed it

Randyjj55: But why did we go to the Moon?

ddavitt: : Politics

ddavitt: bad motives really

siannon prime: How do the legal arguments re Moon ownership in SiaSl tie in with MWSTM?

ddavitt: H did at least set up a colony straight away

BRSTAHL: Status in the fight against "World Communism."

TAWN3: Agree Jani, this could lead to a lengthy discussion. Let's pick it up later sometime, shall we?

Randyjj55: Exactly, with enough science benefits to make it something we could all swallow.

ddavitt: : H wanted to go...why?

siannon prime: Tawn, I'm with you there, girl! See you tomorow maybe?

ddavitt: Tawn's a boy isn't he?

Gaeltachta: Can anyone give an estimate as to the current day cost of sending a man to the moon?

AGplusone: The notion coming up in "Long Watch" that if we didn't someone else would ... fighting against the real motivation of any voyage of discovery, i.e., to make money or 'social credit'?

TAWN3: Ok Jani.

siannon prime: Tawn, care to define your gender status?

Randyjj55: Because "he" wanted to. But notice, one can make one's desires and wants coincident with the benefits of society.

BRSTAHL: : The desire to go to a new place for the sake of going. Some people go to Hawaii, he wanted to go to the moon

Gaeltachta: Tawn sounds "girlie", sorry if I'm wrong.

ddavitt: He wanted man not to be alone.

AGplusone: I think you can ride on broom like Valeria does in Operation Luna which goes in the mail this week, btw, Jani ... if you wish.

siannon prime: Thank you!!!!

ddavitt: thinks they may find aliens..

ddavitt: Not on the Moon but that's the first step

AGplusone: One single broom powered by one cat, rather than a huge bronze horse powered by six brooms :)

TAWN3: I'm a person ? I am an intelligent network of interneural connections. HAL was my uncle. Mike was my cousin. Seymore Cray was my Godfather. :-)

BRSTAHL: "Elephant's Child" syndrome.

AGplusone: [And the Macintosh G-4 may be your progeny ... ]

siannon prime: Getting back to H, he had divided motives - wanted to space, but had sense to see Earth was overcrowded and he could do something about it. Lost first to do second

siannon prime: David, brooms are not powered by cats. Tssk, Poul did not research properly <VBG>

BPRAL22169: I guess,before we pass away from the topic entirely, that if you are interested in equitable distribution of resources, unrestricted market capitalism is the only possible option, then.

AGplusone: And was also concerned about national defense

ddavitt: "you've got to be a believer!' great opening line

AGplusone: There's the "if you build it, they will come" aspect, isn't there, Randy?

ddavitt: Going back several discussions, why did H have broomsticks pointing the 'wrong" way in magic inc. Never come across that before

siannon prime: Bill, the trouble with umc is that nobody has an ethics committee watching over it...

BPRAL22169: Don't need one -- self-reinforcing network of complex interactive functions.

AGplusone: Like an ideal democracy?

siannon prime: Jane, I enquired, found out, can't put the answer on a public log <g> Tell you later!

Randyjj55: Yes, David. And I agree with you Bill, and that is why the discussion about money was thrown in. Because you need the feedback in the system to tie everything together. And that is why some of Heinlein's other political leanings are always tempered and balanced with the idea that a purely Libetarian approach just won't work.

ddavitt: : Hmm...brain spinning wildly. OK That gives me a clue ;-)

BPRAL22169: Brooms are "supposed" to be pointed with the "whisk" ventrally, not dorsally -- except that the whisk part is supposed to convert the glans representation of the wand into a disguised everyday object around thehome.

TAWN3: <g>

AGplusone: erk

TAWN3: Minerva was my girlfriend.

Randyjj55: Remember, there is a cost and a benefit associated with every action. If you can't tell whether the action has a greater benefit than cost, you can assume that the system will get out of whack.

BPRAL22169: : Not knowing what you mean by "purely libertarian approach," I will pass on the comment.

ddavitt: Before or after she switched bodies?

AGplusone: Reminds me of Milton's portrayal of Satan entering Eden in Book IV I think it is.

TAWN3: I read an excellent essay suggesting RAH was a minarchist (Jeffersonian) as opposed to an anarchist. Which agrees with the term "rational anarchist".

ddavitt: By whom?

AGplusone: The cost of fighting through the Turks on the straits for the Venetians and Genoans was something they felt would be too 'out of wacky' so they went West with the Portugese and Spanish?

Randyjj55: I meant pure libertarian only in the sense that all actions are based on the individual deciding what is best and making any associations voluntarily. However, it is hard to work with the proper feedback mechanism, unless some external force (government) is structuring the network so you get feedback.

BPRAL22169: : I think Heinlein had great affection for and loyalty to the institutions of the United States -- but that he didn't agree with any of them.

ddavitt: Not even the navy?

BPRAL22169: Randy, that statement does not comport with the math of complex interactive systems.

BPRAL22169: Read "Pied Piper" and tell me what Heinlein thought about the rules of warfare and the role of the military.

siannon prime: (brooms) Thank you, Bill, I could not have put it so succinctly! Even ukrp had to include pg spoilers to explain the obvious to me...

TAWN3: Jane, to quote TEFL, "does it matter"? <VEG>

ddavitt: Glub, glub, out of my depth here...

Randyjj55: I wondered if someone catch that :-) I feel a metastatement coming on.... :-)

AGplusone: :It doesn't matter what the force is (obviously it must, otherwise "What's good for GM is good for the US") in theory, but in practice, it can.

ddavitt: Well, you thought I was male once so I'm entitled to tease you :-)

AGplusone: Suspect it was take orders! And nothing more.

ddavitt: Pied Piper I don't have; only the snippets from your essay on it

AGplusone: I haven't seen Pied Piper in forty years.

siannon prime: Whats a Jeffersonian minarchist? I'm lost here

ddavitt: Join me in the maze...and I have a Politics degree <sigh>

AGplusone: Define it Tawn.

Randyjj55: Bill, I think that a pretty good article or two could probably be put together around the thoughts presented here so far.... and we're only 2/3 of the way through the chat.

KultsiKN: : Minimum amount of governing?

TAWN3: Can't recall who wrote the article. It may have been the lawyer who did the outstanding analysis of the legal on the Moon in TMiaHM. I have it either printed out or downloaded somewher. It was a good essay, but what sticks out is the "minarchist" definition. Actually, it may have been in something I linked to from a Schulman site.

siannon prime: Jane, if you have a degree in Pol  and I have one in Law, why on earth are we not running the world??

ddavitt: More important things to do...

AGplusone: [are we talking deTorqueville?] Oh, that site. The Libertarian one.

BPRAL22169: I think "minarchism" is conventionally defined as "minimum essential government" -- courts, armed forces, police -- and nothing else.

TAWN3: It most definitely was comparing and contrasting RAH to Rand though. I remember that much.

siannon prime: Oh yeah, sorry. Forget about that

Randyjj55: It's not the degrees in politics or law. The real question is you're both intelligent women, why aren't you running the world.

BPRAL22169: : What makes you think law and poly sci are trying to train you to run the world . . . instead of being run by it? Hmmm.

BPRAL22169: Randy, coudln't agree more.

Randyjj55: Sure you could - use more adjectives.

siannon prime: : Because as Jane said, intelligent women have better things to do ...

BPRAL22169: I think thre are some comments about that in the Schulman interview.

BPRAL22169: Oooh. Very good.

BRSTAHL: Well if you're not running it, who is? I want to complain about some things.

ddavitt: We have our priorities right that's why. Why should we do all the work/ Do we get thanked for it? Are we appreciated? No!

Randyjj55: I try. :-)

BPRAL22169: : Why, Bryan, you are. Didn'tyou know that?

TAWN3: Jane. :-)

AGplusone: [address you complaints to my cat, Bob, Master of All He Surveys]

BPRAL22169: Anybody read "Polity and Customs among the Camiroi"?

Randyjj55: That's right, and I'm just out here to protect it when you need some Air Force support.

ddavitt: : No bill.

BPRAL22169: Fun story -- series of stories by R.A. Lafferty.

ddavitt: And i bet no one else has either :-)

siannon prime: What's polity, Bill?

KultsiKN: And intelligent women don't tell they're actually running the world anyhoo...

TAWN3: Yes, minimum amount of governing. Not as anarchistic as anarchism.

BPRAL22169: Polity is, like, structure -- political structure.

ddavitt: Because we're too intelligent...another tail eating worm

TAWN3: Some Government is both good and necessary.

siannon prime: Self-responsibility with minimal laws? Sounds fine

ddavitt: Yes, or my daughter would get to pick her own bed time

siannon prime: No it isn't Bill. You made it up.

BPRAL22169: "political organization; a politically organized unit."

siannon prime: Stop dodging

Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: bascially governmental organization, specific organization ....

siannon prime: I don't blame him

Gaeltachta< has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: I should never look away -- what am I dodging now (dodging)?

ddavitt: Who was Dan Patch?

BPRAL22169: The Devil.

siannon prime: A horse

AGplusone: It must be hard staying on line when your toilet bowl runs the other way, Sean. :-D

BPRAL22169: Also a racehorse.

ddavitt: A red Rum type?

AGplusone: A trotting horse.

ddavitt: Don't think we have them much in the UK

Gaeltachta: Got booted. Our run the "right" way actually. :-)

BPRAL22169: About 1915? I'm a little vague on that.

AGplusone: Progenitor of all the good lines of trotters in the US.

ddavitt: Isn't the training a little cruel?

siannon prime: Trotters are "followed" the way UK racehorse lines are.

siannon prime: Dan Patch was a famous trotter stallion

AGplusone: Like Man of War ....

ddavitt: I figured as much; just wondered if H had invented him

AGplusone: nope

TAWN3: Dan Patch, famous horse. Won many races. There are bars named after him (her?).

siannon prime: I don't think the training is any more cruel than racehorse training.

AGplusone: HIM

ddavitt: Never heard of him outside this story

Randyjj55: Should we consider this the last break? If so, I'll ask one more time, since everyone is probably here that is going to be  here. Anyone else need a copy of "Expanded Universe"?

siannon prime: : STALLION, Tawn. Implies dangly bits

ddavitt: I heard it was from a horse owning friend

AGplusone: emphatically him .... Yes, five minutes ... until 710 ET

Randyjj55: Dave, catch bookworm

BPRAL22169: : Pb or hb?

ddavitt: have to ask her..not important her though

Randyjj55: PB

TAWN3: : Oh.

ddavitt: HB's don't get given away!

TAWN3: Is that what it means :-)

Randyjj55: Oops, too slow

siannon prime: : Of course, all horse racing training is cruel...

AGplusone: She's off now, Randy. E mail her. Tell her who you are.

siannon prime: Tawn.. you're funny :)

TAWN3: hb? pb? I am missing something.

AGplusone: paper or hard bound

Randyjj55: I couldn't catch her because she was an AOLer, according to my little obnoxious pop up screen.

ddavitt: : Hard back,paperback

TAWN3: Why thank you:-)

TAWN3: Jani.

AGplusone: Yes, mine too.

AGplusone: Bill: what time and what arrangements tomorrow for breakfast?

BPRAL22169: Since it seems unlikely we will ever get back on topic -- to make these different brands of libertarianism work you have to restrict the notion of "government." The usual definition of government is a body that reserves the right to the use of force in a given locale to itself.

BPRAL22169: I don't want to have to leave the house earlier than 8-ish, but I could meet you in Santa Monica 9'ish.

Randyjj55: Actually, Jane, I can get a couple of Heinlein hardbacks also, for some reasonable prices. I already had them, but I'm always willing to pick up a paperback to send to people to spread the gospel of Heinlein. :-)

BRSTAHL has left the room.

AGplusone: I can pick you up around 0830

BPRAL22169: Are you sure you want to come all the way out here to go all the way back there?

AGplusone: easy on Sunday morning ... no traffic

ddavitt: OK, I have to say goodbye now. I'm starting to feel a bit peculiar after two hours and I hate throwing up all over the computer :-) Thanks for the chat, see you all soon.

BPRAL22169: Ok, i won't turn down the lift. I'll expect you here about 8:30. I think I've given you everything I'm holding for you (except the "Jerry Was a Man" I haven't come across yet).

AGplusone: All I have to do is watch out for the station wagon of nuns going to Mass.

BPRAL22169: Seek and destroy, eh?

ddavitt: Thanks randy, just noticed your messgae.

AGplusone: Yes ...

AGplusone: Bye Jane.

siannon prime: See you soon, Jane. Try dry biscuits and ginger root! S says best and goodbye, too

ddavitt: It's getting better; 13 weeks now, just too long on the puter and it seems to make me sick

ddavitt has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Reminds me -- did you ever read "A Gnome There Was," and was it the story you were trying to remember last . . . goodness, it was July, wasn't it?

siannon prime: It's all these bad guys you meet here ... <BG>

TAWN3: bye Jane!

AGplusone: Okay, who wants to be the victim for the question starting this hour, Bill? [yes ... I'll bring that book]

TAWN3: Fun messing with you! :-)

Randyjj55: Now Jani, the Bar Chaplain says, "There are no bad guys here, just guys that haven't been housebroken"

AGplusone: :Or taught to trot properly ...

BPRAL22169: Who's tot to trot?

AGplusone: Which I figure Jimmy (Drumbo) ought to be experiencing about now :-)

Randyjj55: Arggh, DenvToday is on - can an AOLer invite him in?

AGplusone: :Doing it.

siannon prime: Is Jimmy getting married today?

AGplusone: Can't remember, but the date is close, or just past.

siannon prime: Nice for a Christian to be married at Beltane...most appropriate, both ways. <BEG>

AGplusone: Okay, then I have a question: what 'control' is missing from an effective space program ....?

BPRAL22169: Isn't Beltane tomorrow?

DenvToday< has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Denv ...

DenvToday: Greetings! Just got home.

Randyjj55: I'm not sure I understand your question, Dave.

BPRAL22169: : You're going to have to redefine that question. I haven't the first idea what you're asking about.

TAWN3: Hi Denv.

DenvToday: Howdy Tawn.

Randyjj55: Welcome Denv

siannon prime: : Yes, but the dates are a construct, really - the season doesnt stop or start on a particular date

DenvToday: Sorry I missed Thursday night. I had to work, unfortunately.

TAWN3: Is this a trick question david?

KultsiKN: Beltane is GOOD for some activities -- my bd is Jan 31...

AGplusone: Was RAH correct about the nature of leadership needed, i.e., private motives rather than national defense to get to the moon?

DenvToday: Thanks Randy.

Randyjj55: Glad to see I wasn't the only one that couldn't parse that question.

TAWN3: : "Let's get the dumb blonde to answer"....

TAWN3: Hahaha

siannon prime: Kultsi, apparently they have Beltane in November in Oz

siannon prime: Oz as in Aus, not Oz

AGplusone: Or could a government sponsor a proper 'voyage of discovery' some way other than the way it has?

TAWN3: Like the commercial. In other wortds, is that a silly question, what controls are missing :-)

BRSTAHL has entered the room.

AGplusone: I.e., Anarctica before everyone agreed to stop making territorial claims?

TAWN3: No offense to any NASA guys out there < sheepish grin>

BPRAL22169: I don't think even the NASA guys like NASA anymore.

DenvToday: A private concern is now taking over Mir. NASA is very nervous about this. They don't want competition for the now-stalled International Space Station.

KultsiKN: Jani, I read ya

TAWN3: :-)

BRSTAHL: Don't know what happened, my ISP just kicked me off the air, then it took over ten minutes to log back on.

AGplusone: What ISP in Jordan (?)


AGplusone: Good one I hope.

DenvToday: If private industry had made a serious attempt to exploit the moon, would it have been thrity years since men walked the surface? I don't think so.

BPRAL22169: There'sa bit of analogy with the railroads -- the railroads were force-grown by the U.S. government in the mid 19th century, and created tremendous social problems it took -- well, we're not finished dealing with them yet. As well as the benefits, of course. But the huge end-of-century trusts come directly out of the landgrants made to get the railroads built ahead of market schedule.

BRSTAHL: They tell me it's the best. With this one you can get reliable 33.6 connections, the others aren't that good.

Randyjj55: Well, we know that some people did exploration for the profit motive, others to spread their faith, and others to escape something or find something. But in all cases, there was an external agency that funded the exploration - usually the government, some times a church. However, it was the people that went. Hmm, I'll have to think on this one.

AGplusone: :The competition factor was something that RAH talked about ... cannot have dueling colonial powers, but is the UN aegis one we want?

geeairmoe2: Governments (usually) have to "answer to the people" for their actions. A private company has only to answer to its stockholders. (Until lately, i.e. Microsoft.)

DenvToday: Interesting question: If a private company is the first to reach the moon again, to whom will it belong? Squatters rights?

AGplusone: Granting franchises to an East Indian Company portotype?

Gaeltachta: I think that all countries would be very wary of a private space venture which includes the ability to throw rocks down the gravity well.

TAWN3: Space Patrol?

n1yqh a has left the room.

AGplusone: Maybe we need the corporate powers RAH decried in Friday to duel with franchises ... possibly they wouldn't nuke each others headquarters?

BPRAL22169: I would have much more problems with a Space Patrol started by Bill Clinton than I would have had with oen started by Harry S Truman.

geeairmoe2: People who make no contribution what-so-ever to landing on the Moon will claim some right to it.

TAWN3: Agree.

siannon prime: Going back to private motivations - Harriman was able to finance a personal dream because he was a self-sufficient, self-interested individual. How many people are able to finance and think through a project without having to rely on sponsorship of some sort from other bodies?

DenvToday: Was RAH accurate in TMIAHM? Could a simple rock-launching device create massive destruction here on Earth?

geeairmoe2: The spoils no longer go to the achievers, they go to the whiners.

AGplusone: Undoubtedly.

AGplusone: Look at the Yucatan when it killed the dinosaurs.

TAWN3: Don't rule out the Japanese and Chinese.

BRSTAHL: Some of the space treaties say that no private group can own objects in space, and their governments are responsible for what they do. Also, the moon is supposed to be international territory under U.N. control.

TAWN3: Do it for national esteem.

DenvToday: gee, I agree. Witness the Microsoft suit. Gates' competitors (who contributed heavily to Clinton) were behind it.

BPRAL22169: it's very instructive to read Benjamin Franklin's autobiography. Having the city or state or non-existent federal government didn't even occur to him. If he wanted something, he set about organizing likeminded indiduals to do it -- paradigm.

DenvToday: BR, land belongs to whomever can keep it by force. That's a simple fact.

AGplusone: Like Harriman ... avoid entanglements ... and finesse those you cannot avoid.

BPRAL22169: In a sense, the idea of "there must be a government to sponsor it" is a non-issue.

DenvToday: BP, we should learn from him.

BPRAL22169: Agree.

TAWN3: The Moon will possibly be treated like Antarctica is today. International.

BRSTAHL: That's true, but who has the most force?

AGplusone: But does the UN appear likely to grant charters to corporations to colonize the moon?

DenvToday: BR, if RAH was correct, and I think he was, then those up there first--and can stay for any length of time--will have the force.

TAWN3: Exactly Denv. I was thinking the same thing.

AGplusone: Or even, to eleemonsynary corporations to further space flight? Harriman's likely dodge.

geeairmoe2: What the UN does and does not see for the Moon is irrelevant unless the UN has the force to back up its pronouncements.

Gaeltachta: Ok, gotta go now. My daughter wants to go shopping. Adios.

DenvToday: The Mir experience will show us a lot. If a private company can beat NASA at their own game for a fraction of the cost, it could change everything.

DenvToday: Bye Gael.

stephenveiss: Bye...

siannon prime: Night Sean


geeairmoe2: G'day Sean.

TAWN3: Bye Gael

Gaeltachta has left the room.

AGplusone: True ... but somebody's got to do it ... and Harriman wasn't worried about the force ... what he was looking at was the politics between nations.

DenvToday: gee, absolutely. All of human history says that.

TAWN3: Private industry did it to the Human Genome Project.

geeairmoe2: And now governments want the benefits of the HG project for free.

TAWN3: Celeron I believe is the name of the company.

siannon prime: Good point, David. There was no "we're first, we're right" about his analysis of what would happen if *any* country got there first, just common sense analysis

DenvToday: gee, I sense a fellow libertarian in you. lol

AGplusone: What he was worried about was the militaristic aspect of the gravity well and not letting just one nation have it .... at a time when more than one nation ad the capability to get there. Can we really say that's not true today?

siannon prime: Who me? <g>

TAWN3: Who Denv?

AGplusone: Or won't be true in twenty years ....

DenvToday: geeairmoe. But anybody can speak up! lol

siannon prime: Dammit, Tawn, we lost again <g>

geeairmoe2: I'm a Baptist fundamentalist who understands why God gave us Free Choice.

AGplusone: I read a novel about a UN-US friction on Mars, last year, but someone who obviously was a Heinlein fan.

TAWN3: I still say, don't count the Chinese and Japanese out. They both potentially have the ability, in different ways. The J. with quality, the Chinese with quantity.

DenvToday: If I had Bill Gates' bucks, I'd be aiming for the moon.

AGplusone: Might better serve mankind that way that by donating Windows machines to schools and libraries.

TAWN3: Jani, Oh well. :-)

geeairmoe2: If God says we all get to choose whether we want to go to Heaven or Hell, that's good enough for me.

BPRAL22169: Then, you wouldn't be Bill Gates. Heinlein said somethign once that affected me profoundly: Anybody can make money or get political power -- you just have to dedicate your life to it.

DenvToday: AG, Microsoft donates tens of thousands of computers and programs every year as it is.

AGplusone: So no Harrimans on the horizon ....

siannon prime: Tawn, yes but could the US sit back as H did and work out the ramifications of who gets there first, without being somewhat prejudiced against Japan and China? (Going by posts on afh here)

AGplusone: I know, for purely charitable reasons of course .... :)

TAWN3: Haven't read those posts on afh yet. Still have a few hundred to go :-). But, then it would spur us on.

siannon prime: Geeairmoe, which Bill are you?

DenvToday: I don't know what his motivations are. Everybody does everything for "selfish" reasons. Simply human nature. It's not what you feel, it's what you do.

siannon prime: Tawn, it's an ongoing thing, no specific thread at the moment

TAWN3: Geeairmoe, are you male or female? Just kidding!!!!!

AGplusone: I doubt it, Jani, otherwise RAH wouldn't have written "Long Watch" would he?

geeairmoe2: Will. Geeairmoe is a phonetic spelling of the Spanish pornunciation of William.

TAWN3: Oh Jani.

BPRAL22169: Hint, Will: the "correct" response is: "Does it matter?"

AGplusone: We just finished a selfish vs. unselfish thread on AFH, Denv. I'm on your side.

DenvToday: Good :-)

DenvToday: I think Ayn Rand is a good place to start on that one.

siannon prime: Yes, who won that thread, David?

siannon prime: :)

AGplusone: The biggest problem is unresolved so far as spaceflight is concerned in my mind. Nobody wins threads.

BPRAL22169: Not sure about that -- she had some big blind spots.

AGplusone: Who watches who controls it.

TAWN3: I got some cool threads I wear on Friday night.

BRSTAHL: Why the right side did! :-)

BPRAL22169: Obviously you haven't been in a flame war with certain afh members!

DenvToday: Um..what's AFH?

siannon prime: Afh does not flame. Hmmph


TAWN3: Oh, the idiot that posts there all the time against RAH. Already forgot his name.

DenvToday: ya.

geeairmoe2: Was the general conclusion that just about everything Man does is done for selfish reasons?

BPRAL22169: Twain's position, btw. I think RAH agreed.

siannon prime: Denv, afh is a very pleasant place to have a really big row about just about anything, and got for a beer afterwards

BPRAL22169: Some of the aphorisms in the Ntebooks suggest it as late as 1973.

BPRAL22169: But Rand's analysis does parse the question admirably.

TAWN3: Selfish is good? Greed is good? Harriman. Sorry, poorly constructed thought.

DenvToday: Yep, he did. But the word "selfish" has become loaded. It isn't bad, it's simply accurate. Mother Teresa got more satisfaction from helping the crippled than from leading a "normal" life. But it was selfish satisfaction.

siannon prime: Not necessarily. Some people simply do not have any self-interest at all.

TAWN3: I agree. Even Mother Teresa. It gives her satisfaction. Ergo, greed -can- be good, everything is for self interest.

BPRAL22169: Not necessarily; that's a point of view that simply cannot see another person's motivations in completeness.

AGplusone: Sent you an AOL link to find it Denv ... what we're using as a message board now.

geeairmoe2: We help the needy because it makes us feel good about ourselves.

DenvToday: I'll go there right after we sign off here. Thanks.

BPRAL22169: Sufi's strive, for instance, to put down self-interested do-gooding.

siannon prime: Sometimes you help because it would be too painful *not* to help.

BPRAL22169: Do something because it's good or right, not because you love it. Love it because it's good, not because it feels good to love it.

TAWN3: i.e. I do it because it makes me feel good or I feel good about myself for doing it. That is why it is so important to instill good values in our youth, something which is not happening today.

geeairmoe2: Being inactive (doing nothing) is stagnation -- stagnation leads to death.

BRSTAHL: So you're helping to avoid the pain of not helping.

geeairmoe2: We do things to stay alive.

BPRAL22169: We do SOME things to stay alive -- physically, and some things to stay alive intellectually; and some things to stay alive emotionally; and some things to stay alive spiritully.

siannon prime: Indeed. But I get no fuzzy-warm from helping. It's just part of what is.

TAWN3: Jani, that is by definition self interest.

DenvToday: lol siannon. I'm looking forward to it.

BPRAL22169: Ich kann nicht anders?

TAWN3: BPral, are they not simply substituting one for the other? Sufis I mean.

BPRAL22169: The teaching parables suggest otherwise.

siannon prime: That made a lot of sense. Sorry. I do not help for personal, selfish, fuzzy reasons. I do what I can because that is what I do. It doesn't make me feel better, or worse - the situation which requires the help is still *there*, and still painful to me, whether I help or not.

TAWN3: BPRAL, you are Ann Landers?

siannon prime: Who she?

AGplusone: We seem to be stalled from achievement of the Moon because of governmental lassitude (sp?) so what is missing I suspect is a way for a private enterprise to be certain that there's a pay off way out there ...

BPRAL22169: There are stages to personal evolution that are simply invisible to people who are not at those stages.

BPRAL22169: I just had a talk with a close friend on just the payoff subject yesterday. he's a lobbyist for Pete Conrad's Universal Spacelines. TAWN3: Ich bin ann anders?

BPRAL22169: (This is me, ignoring that)

AGplusone: The East Indian Company wasn't really in business to develop East Indianmen, which is what they called the ships. I'm suggesting that merely developing a means to get there isn'tenough incentive for enterprise.

BRSTAHL: Too many industries are caught up in this quarters earnings to think of pay-offs ten or fifteen years down the road.

BPRAL22169: True. One of the thigns they are working toward is outsourcing a lot of the non-sensitive military space services.

TAWN3: :-)

geeairmoe2: Sign of the times. We need instant gratification.

BPRAL22169: That will create a revenue base.

BPRAL22169: But it's a paradigm thing, again -- why should the U.S. government be operating things like weather satellites in the first place -- or freeways, for that matter.

AGplusone: Yet, if there were a promise of enormous payoff way down the line, as there was for the colonial exploiters, then maybe they could see beyond the next quarterly earnings statement.

DenvToday: BP, I agree.

Randyjj55: Freeways is easy - Eisenhower had them put in for national defense.

AGplusone: :Harriman doesn't sell his shareholders on getting to the moon, it's what they'll get afterwards.

BPRAL22169: The U.S. government is competing with the businesses and sucking off the potential profitability --and incidentally keeping stuff terribly expensive because they have no incentive to make them cheaper.

TAWN3: Long term view is common in Asia. Not to repeat myself on who not to count out.

AGplusone: Eisenhower had the gasoline industry and Detroit behind that one.

AGplusone: Not repeating yourself Tawn, emphasizing your point!

Randyjj55: Another confluence of interests. The key is to make sure that good ones are also served by the selfish ones.

AGplusone: :I think Poul Anderson with his huge bronze horse would agree with you Bill.

DenvToday: Where's Fjalar when we need him? lol

AGplusone: The only industries who profit here are aerospace and then only minimally so ... we have to have the diamond merchants investing!

AGplusone: Which is why I think he stuck that odd thing in the story.

AGplusone: Because it's so incongruous.

DenvToday: There was an interesting TV show about fifteen years ago with Any Griffith, about

junk dealers who come up with a cheap way to get into orbit. Can't remember the name of the series...

siannon prime: Diamonds - yes I like the idea of diamonds being only pebbles if you have millions of em

BPRAL22169: We're still a couple of steps away from that. At the moment the existing market is photons from space; and the big market on the immediate horizon is --incongruous as it sounds, space tourism.

geeairmoe2: Salavge-One?

BPRAL22169: Salvage One

DenvToday: Yeah, I think that's it!

DenvToday: The idea always intrigued me.

AGplusone: But he laughs at tourism in the beginning of the story.

geeairmoe2: Loosely based on someone named Truax, I think.

AGplusone: tourism is the fall-back of fall-backs

BPRAL22169: What we need is a barrel of Grand Cru Pinot

AGplusone: The "if you build one, they'll come" to use that movie analogy again.

siannon prime: A *barrel*?

BPRAL22169: Emphatically not, David. it's the one market right now that is thought to be guaranteed return.

DenvToday: I wonder if it's possible to have lower-tech space travel. Must it cost billions upon billions?

BPRAL22169: That's what they got to the moon with in Grand Fenwick.

AGplusone: But not big enough

TAWN3: I have read of various private space programs and individual investors over the years. Private industry IS in space by the way.

AGplusone: which is why I say it's the fall-back of fall-backs

DenvToday: I repeat--Mir. It's going to be huge.

AGplusone: Mir very well could.

BPRAL22169: I want manufacturing in orbit so bad I can taste it, but Kyger says nobody will invest in that yet.

DenvToday: If it's successfull--and I hope it is--I guarantee we'll see the government do its best to bollux things up for them.

geeairmoe2: The problem today with private industry is the guilt trip the 'have nots' lobby is able to place on them for doing that crazy Buck Rogers stuff when their money could be better spent feeding the hungry.

BPRAL22169: I don't think anhybody really pays attention to that, do you?

TAWN3: Do we want the NGOs controlling space. Sony? 3M? MS? Maybe it is best with governments. Remember the whole society behind Rollerball?

TAWN3: I like "corporate" by the way.

BPRAL22169: But the guilt trip over not having it in high tech stocks when they wer increasing by 19% a month -- now tht's something I know is effective.

DenvToday: gee, money can't feed the hungry. Witness the starvation in Africa. Tons of food sit on docks, or are stolen by governments, while populations starve. Famine is man-made.

TAWN3: Who or what is Kyger Bpral?

AGplusone: Some do think low-tech is the way to go ... the Mars proposal with the fuel being manufactured for return on Mars is an example of a low-tech approach. I think we can survive corporations. When they become too onerous, we'll take them out.

AGplusone: Like 'microsoft' ... or Standard Oil ...

siannon prime: G'night, all, I have three ngs to struggle through before bedtime and a chickenpoxed littlun upstairs ... I'll turn the lights down a tad and leave the Remy on the table, David..

BPRAL22169: Part of the problem with corporations is the "artificial person" crap introduced to make them consistent with English common law.

AGplusone: Thanks Jani ... sleep tight.

stephenveiss: G'night

DenvToday: AG, if private industry feels that government will use the point of a gun to "nationalize" any gains they make, they simply won't start in the first place.

Randyjj55: I guess in a very basic way, we are all (viruses to people) selfish - its built into our genetic nature to do what is best for ourselves, insures our survival. However, not being viruses (despite what the Martrix Agent said) we can consciously choose to do things contrary to what our wants are. At least I think I can.

BRSTAHL: : Good night!

KultsiKN: Night, Jani

siannon prime has left the room.

geeairmoe2: Yeah, Denv, but then Brokaw et al show a little Ethopian boy staring at the side of the road and its somehow our responsibility.

BPRAL22169: Re-introduce strict liability for

board members and a lot of the problems will disappear overnight.

DenvToday: gee, good point. But the major media deal in emotions, not rationality.

AGplusone: I don't think so ... they'll watch their skirts, count their profits and conform their conduct just as they do now.

Randyjj55: However, when we are interpreting what others do, without "knowing their hearts" it is hard to say if they are doing things for a selfish reason or for an altruistic reason. Especially when selfishness and altruism can both result in the same thing.

TAWN3: : Are you sure about that David? I'm not (taking out the corps). They may be the new arriving form of government. Nations are a relatively new thing don't forget.

AGplusone: That's simply rhetoric designed to get less restrictive laws passed.

Randyjj55: And in some places, nations aren't working.

TAWN3: : Goodnight Jani! Talk to you later?

BPRAL22169: Since 1848 in the terms we think of them now.

geeairmoe2: The problem is convincing people the benefits from space exploration is we don't have the same kind of emotional appeal. If the world is ruled by emotion, we need to adapt to that.

AGplusone: The mini-Bells are an example .. break up ATT and you get many slightly more conforming corporations that you have to watch equally closely.

geeairmoe2: Who was it that suggested a lot of NASA's problems could be solved by a good PR firm?

AGplusone: Or Esso, Exxon, SO of Cal, SO of NY, whatever.

DenvToday: Dave, we have a basic disagreement on that one. We'll have to agree to disagree.

AGplusone: I count myself among those, Will.

BPRAL22169: The better solution is to reconfigure your laws to not support monopolies. Get to the problem at the root, not try to fiddle with symptoms, to mix a metaphor.

AGplusone: But I think Heinlein's point of the necessity of hucksterism or boosterism is part of the solution.

BRSTAHL: Jerry Pournelle was big on NASA doing better PR, though he's been turning more against them lately.

TAWN3: Randy, why aren't we virus? Think about it. both ends of the scale. meet. Ourobus or however it is spelt.

TAWN3: Also, micro vs macro view of the species. Chaos theory, etc, applied to humanity.

DenvToday: Pournelle is? Good for him.

AGplusone: [wadda 'spect Ron from an old lawyer who represented unions?]

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Joe Hill? Sam Hall?

BPRAL22169: "Hey, Buddy, Can You Spare a Dime?"

BPRAL22169: Not that old?

DenvToday: Sorry about that, Dave. Government should protect us from aggression to our persons and property--and that's it!

AGplusone: Nope. Closer to representing Hoffa once than you'd like to imagine.

DenvToday: And RAH agreed with me. <sticking out tongue>

BPRAL22169: You're right -- "mad and bad and dangerous to know."

AGplusone: Shame you missed the earlier hours, you'll enjoy the log.

DenvToday: So Dave...where's he buried? You can tell us.

BPRAL22169: Dave makes no representations.

BPRAL22169: Didn't they find an oil drum about ten years ago?

AGplusone: Let's put it this way ... everytime Barry Sanders scored a touchdown .... he might have been close.

DenvToday: lol

AGplusone: j/k

TAWN3: Everybodies looking for a body. It went into a meat grinder and was sold as hamburger.

BRSTAHL: Well, it's 3 a.m. here in Amman, so I think I'll have to call it a night. Bye!

geeairmoe2: I thought it was the Meadowlands end zone, in Jersey.

DenvToday: They found a suspicious finger in Philadelphia recently.

AGplusone: G'nite Bryan. Glad you came!


Randyjj55: Or a ball park frank, like David didn't suggest.

BPRAL22169: : At who/what was it pointing?

AGplusone: Give our regards to the Hamatic Kingdom

BRSTAHL has left the room.

AGplusone: however that's spelled

Randyjj55: Hashemite

DenvToday: : lol It was pointing at Washington D.C. 'Nuff said.

BPRAL22169: indoody

Randyjj55: Well, did we do any good this afternoon/evening

AGplusone: :And, it's martini time here in Sunny Santa Monica ... 5:02:16 PM

DenvToday: Well, I have to go. It was fun. When's the next discussion?

TAWN3: Yes. We did good.

AGplusone: We had time enough to have fun.

geeairmoe2: What's up for next time?

DenvToday: Time enough for love?

AGplusone: Two weeks, Thursday and Saturday,

BPRAL22169: You know, now that we're off AOL we don't have to have two chats anymore.

TAWN3: I watched 13th Warrior last night. How close is that to Beowolfe?

DenvToday: AIM on Thursday?

KultsiKN: What topic?

AGplusone: Doing first two of GHOE ...

DenvToday: Is it still 9 pm EST?

TAWN3: Two chats are fun, and is more opportunity for folks with commitments.

AGplusone: Deliah & the Space Rigger and Space Jockey

stephenveiss: GHOE?

AGplusone: 9 PM on Thursday, 5 PM on Saturday.

AGplusone: The Green Hills of Earth, Stephen

DenvToday: Thanks Dave. See you all then! Bye for now.

stephenveiss: ah, thx

TAWN3: Item: Is this time to early on Saturdays? It is Spring becoming Summer now. Maybe later is better?

AGplusone: c u Ron, thanks for coming

Randyjj55: Yes, sometimes I can make Thursdays, sometimes Saturdays. I didn't get home from work this thursday early enough to jump in.

DenvToday: : TANSTAAFL!!!!

KultsiKN: Thursday 9 pm EDT is way too late for us, Sat is ok.

DenvToday: Bye...

DenvToday has left the room.

stephenveiss: Same here...

TAWN3: Bye Ron

AGplusone: To catch GB and Europe we pretty much have to go this early, or earlier

geeairmoe2: The way my Saturdays have been going lately, 8 pm central time Thursday might be best, as long as they stay AIM.

AGplusone: And it's 8 AM in Australia on Sunday morning

stephenveiss: (although, ignoring school and postulating enough coffee, times dont really matter)

TAWN3: True. Oh well. Hopefully it will rain on chat days and not other days.

BPRAL22169: Ah, well: priorities.

AGplusone: 8 central is part of what we have ...

KultsiKN: Its Sunday morning for me, too...

AGplusone: me, I'll be hoping that UCLA either has a lousy season or I'll move the TV into the same room as the 'puter

TAWN3: Mine already is.

AGplusone: Yes ... quite early Sunday morning for you.

AGplusone: Enjoy that letter from me, Kultsi?

KultsiKN: Oh, sports! The downfall of good computer time...

BPRAL22169: Does this discussion remind anyone of the Mayflower in Farmer in the Sky?

TAWN3: ?

TAWN3: Ah, Yes ins=deedy

KultsiKN: Yes David! Enormously!

BPRAL22169: Trying to decide when to have a scout meeting.

BPRAL22169: The whole ship can attend

AGplusone: Yes, the three shifts. Write the person and let her know.

TAWN3: Can't we just --think-- to each other? :-)

TAWN3: Darn, was thinking of TftS

KultsiKN: I'm going to look into it real deep.

TAWN3: But, FitS, yes, exactly.

AGplusone: Well, Lakers are about to murder whomever it is they're playing now .... and I do what to consume that Remy Jani left me ....

geeairmoe2: :Sports! Reminds me, got to get the A's on Real Player.

Randyjj55: Yes, TV is in same room as computer - can watch Earth Final Conflict from WGN at same time as being on chat. Watching it on KTLA now.

AGplusone: :Saturday, April 29, 2000, 5:08:52 PM, PDT, closing log.

geeairmoe2: Bye all.

AGplusone: It's been a pleasure everyone. Thanks for coming.

stephenveiss: Bye

TAWN3: I watch that. Not a superb show, just passable. The 1st season was excellent though.

stephenveiss has left the room.

TAWN3: Bye gear (Will).

Randyjj55: Well, with B5 gone, there isn't much to choose from.

BPRAL22169: : We have a KTLA here in LA.

TAWN3: Exactly.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I like Final Conflict -- liked it better before they changed the principals.

TAWN3: B5, Highlander, STNG. I was a religious viewer of all three. As well as The Prisoner whenever it repeats.

TAWN3: Exactly.

Randyjj55: Yes, and we have it here in Las Cruces on Cable. That way I can watch last week'd episode on WGN and this week's episode on KTLA.

BPRAL22169: : A two-fisted tv watcher!

TAWN3: 1st season was SOOOO good. Of course, it was to slow and thought and deep for the mass viewing public.

Randyjj55: And computer chat'er.

Randyjj55: : Yes, and you've got to love the music....

TAWN3: : Randy (Ringo?), NM?

BPRAL22169: Hard to think of any Roddenberry production as "too deep."

KultsiKN: Well, David, I'm gonna write you an e-mail later; two in fact: one on the one you sent, and the other on installing AIM on Windoze.

TAWN3: You don't look hard enough.

KultsiKN: Time to hit the sack! Bye all!

Randyjj55: Yes, I live in the Land of Enchantment at the present time.

AGplusone: :That'll help. Apreciate it from everyone.

AGplusone: pp

AGplusone: Randy, are you logging backup?

TAWN3: I could write for days on the analogies in the first season. Nut they took all the speculation out. The first season: were they fgood? evil? what is evil? are they like the Brits in India, etc.

KultsiKN has left the room.

TAWN3: Bye Kultsi!

TAWN3: Damn, missed it again!

BPRAL22169: I'm logging but I missed about 5 minutes early on.

BPRAL22169: I think it's pretty clear they have their own agenda, and they intended to use the humans.

AGplusone: Can you save html and send it to David Wright ... I didn't see anything in the log needs editing in this one. Copy me and I'll send David what you missed Bill.

BPRAL22169: It's hard to imagine how they could have "factions" on the council the way they are networked.

TAWN3: Of course. But the first season it was very ambiguous.they changed that, I assume, for ratings.

BPRAL22169: OK will do -- do I need to send this on to the AIM people?

AGplusone: See you all ... I'd send it out, maybe to AOLers too.

AGplusone: Copy me and I'll add and send it to them.

Randyjj55: Yes I am.... got taken away by the spousal overunit...

TAWN3: : I agree. The show no longer is "good", just passable.

AGplusone: My regards to her!

AGplusone: My overlord unit is due home momentarily to watch Lakers!

BPRAL22169: OK, fine -- do you have Rita's addy on yourcopy of the AIM list?

AGplusone: G'nite, all ... probably not.

TAWN3: Bye David.

AGplusone: And see you at 0830 tomorrow Bill.

TAWN3: Made it that time!

AGplusone: Read the Poddy log yet Tawn3?

BPRAL22169: I'll send you the latest copy of the list by e-mail and see you at 8:30 tomorrow.

AGplusone: Okay ... nite

TAWN3: No. Been overwhelmed with stuff.

BPRAL22169: PS I've been e-mailing the log to VH every 40 min. or so.

Final End of Discussion Log

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