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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 05-13-2000

Guest Author - Poul Anderson

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Please note: The Readers Group lost its home on AOL just two days before this chat; while this is not an alarming development, it does mean we will be using makeshifts in the immediate future. As a permanent home is developed, we will send around notices to everybody. Thanks very much for participating. Bill

HEINLEIN READERS GROUP

Log of AIM Chat, April 15, 2000

Special Guests: Poul and Karen Anderson

You have just entered room "AGplusone Chat63."

siannon prime: Does anyone know if Sean's joining? He may not be awake yet...

BookOworm: OK...

dwrighsr: Hi everyone.

DenvToday: Mr. Anderson, do you know Neil Smith?

Poul Anderson: K: Someone asked the other day about research for the "Operation" books. The best I can suggest is L. Sprague and Catherine de Camp's book Spirits Stars and Spells. This is out of print but amazon.com can find it. It has ten pages of bibliography. /ga

Pnther5o5: Ms. Anderso, Could you pass on my thanks to Msr. Anderson? Jim Baen uses one of his "prescriptions" for writing that is so clear and beautiful it changed my life.

ddavitt has entered the room.

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Thanks; it all froze up on me.

siannon prime: Cryo's not here, is he!

AGplusone: But, if everyone's got a drink handy, we can chat a few minutes and then we'll start.

ddavitt: Hope not! :-(

Poul Anderson: Denv, yes, we know Neil Smith slightly. Pnther, what "prescription"?

Poul Anderson: /ga

Pnther5o5: Three sensory words per page.

Pnther5o5: Now I go back over the mss and look for where I've left "white walls".

Pnther5o5: Works beautifully.

Pnther5o5: ga/

Poul Anderson: (From now on, I'm taking dictation from Poul): I wouldnt make it that rigid but I do try to appeal to at least three senses in every scene, bearing in mind that we have much more than five.

AGplusone: Okay, got everyone in on list except Randy ... so let's begin. Ready

all?

ddavitt: Yes.

Pnther5o5: Well, I didn't say I did it _rigidly_:-D

AGplusone: Since we have heavy traffic tonight,

AGplusone: I'd appreciate anyone who knows how

Randyjj55 has entered the room.

AGplusone: to log this chat, so we have backup if

AGplusone: the system boots me, as can happen.

Poul Anderson: Of course, often just a word or two suffices, and and it can be implicit: for example, dialogue just by itself implies someone hearing it./ga

Randyjj55: Will do

AGplusone: Welcome to the Robert A. Heinlein Reading

ddavitt: I don't know how to log but I'll save from time to time

AGplusone: Group. Tonight we are honored by visitor

DenvToday: I installed AIM just for this afternoon's chat. Great love hath no computer...

Randyjj55 has left the room.

AGplusone: Poul Anderson. He's here to discuss anything

AGplusone: he'd like, but we've all read Robert Heinlein's

AGplusone: Magic, Inc. and his novels Operation Chaos and

AGplusone: Operation Luna in anticipation of this visit..

AGplusone: :::

AGplusone: Before we begin I have to note we will operate

AGplusone: under a protocol at least for the beginning of the

AGplusone: meeting. If you have a question, type "?" and if

AGplusone: you have a statement, type "!" and we'll recognize

AGplusone: you in order. MikeC89102 will keep and will

AGplusone: call on you in order.

AGplusone: :::

AGplusone: Any questions before we begin?

AGplusone: :::

AGplusone: I'll keep the queue until Mike arrives.

AGplusone: No questions?

geeairmoe2: ?

ddavitt: No.

AGplusone: GA Will.

geeairmoe2: What question are you asked most?

AGplusone: Poul?

ddavitt: ?

Poul Anderson: Probably "Where do you get your ideas?"

Pnther5o5: ?

ddavitt: Sorry; David Randy needs an invite

AGplusone: queue is ddavitt, Pather5o5 ...

AGplusone: and I'll get Randy back in ...

AGplusone: Go, Jane

ddavitt: Do you believe that magic is another form of technology that has been forgoten or not fully understood?

Poul Anderson: It used to be "Where do you get those crazy Buck Rogers ideas.," but we seem to get more respect these days.

ddavitt: Or is it just a fun thing to write about?

DenvToday: lol

Randyjj55 has entered the room.

Agplusone: Okay, after Jane's (ddavitt's) pending question, queue is Pnther505

DenvToday: ?

Poul Anderson: As for magic, it is certainly not a technology, unless like Fraser you call it a failed or aborted technology. But it is fun to write about, and also it does offer ways to show some aspects of human psychology and emotion. Very few people have ever gotten completely free of magical thinking. /ga

ddavitt: It's because it's fun to think about doing things a different way I think.

Randyjj55: ?

Poul Anderson: Yes, that would be part of it./ga

AGplusone: Okay, Pnther, go ahead

Pnther5o5: John Ringo Mr. Anderson. Have you considered the similarity between genetics and homeopathic magic?

Pnther5o5: Eg, a scrap of skin really can_be used to "detect" a person individually. ga/

Poul Anderson: No, offhand that seems a very far-fetched analogy. /ga

AGplusone: Denv, go ahead

DenvToday: Mr. Anderson, do you think it's possible that we'll ever be able to download the human mind into computer storage? Do computer mavens think Anson Guthrie could ever really happen?

AGplusone: queue waiting is Randy ...

geeairmoe2: ?

Pnther5o5: ?

Poul Anderson: Nobody yet knows for sure. There is quite a range of opinion among experts. I suppose, at the extreme ends of the spectrum, we might put Hans Moravec or Frank Tipler, as opposed to Roger Penrose. /ga

AGplusone: geeairmoe, go ahead

geeairmoe2: Do you daily writing goals? 'x' number of words or pages a day?/ga

AGplusone: ooops, sorry, Randy, you're next, then Pnther again.

n1yqh a: ?

Poul Anderson: No, it all depends on what state of development the story is at, as well as outside circumstances. Obviously, I'm not at my desk right now, but I was this morning./ga

AGplusone: [By the way, Astyanax12, who doesn't have AIM loaded, is online on AOL and says to say hello to everyone]. Randy, you're up.

Randyjj55: Mr Anderson, thanks for being here, I've been reading your stories since 1965 and Brainwave was always one of my favorites. Do you think that its possible tht "magic" today is in the same position as quantum physics in the 1890s?

Poul Anderson: Hello, Astyanax, glad you're here (if that's the word for it.)

siannon prime: ?

geeairmoe2: ?

Poul Anderson: Randy, I think not; as far as I can tell magic is a purely psychological and social set of phenomena. Granted, quantum physics is pretty weird, but it does give us reproducible and closely measurable results. /ga

AGplusone: Queue is the pending question from Randy, then Pnther5o5, then n1yqh a, then siannon, then geeairmoe . I'll pass the greetings on to Astyanax.

AGplusone: Go ahead, Pnther

Pnther5o5: Thinking about "Clarke's Law", are there any technologies you see as some day being "magical" to the (remarkably jaded) present? As opposed to something that a "modern" could clearly recognize as advanced science?

Poul Anderson: That does seem to call for quite a stretch of the imagination. But suppose we discover some laws or aspects of nature that today we have no inkling of; technology using that would seem inexplicable to us. /ga

AGplusone: You're on, n1yqh a (his ham radio call sign if anyone was wondering).

n1yqh a: Mr. Anderson, I'ev recently begun reading the Time Patrol stories; I was wondering if history is a hobby of yours or if all of the historical details are from research specifically for the stories?

Merfilly8 has left the room.

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

AGplusone: {nice job, Randy}

Poul Anderson: K:Ah, I woundered if it was one of Lovecraft's Great Old Ones. Poul says: Yes, history has always been a special interest of mine, though of course for any story with a historical setting research into details is needed. The more the better./ga

AGplusone: siannon, you're on

siannon prime: In The Queen of Air and Darkness, the "Old Ones" were the aboriginal natives of the planet - what's your feeling about the "Old Ones" of our various mythologies? Archetypes created by humans, or survivors from former races? Or even prehistoric alien visitors?

ddavitt: ?

Randyjj55: ?

Poul Anderson: I would say almost certainly myths and archetypes. We simply have no real evidence for any "intelligent" creatures ever having been on Earth besides ourselves. K:Misunderstanding of real objects comes into it:fossil elephant skulls in the Mediterranean area, with the huge nasal opening, gave rise to the Cyclopes./ga

AGplusone: pending queue is gee, then ddavitt, then Randy. GA, Will

geeairmoe2: How intricate an outline do you prepare before beginning a novel, and how well do you 'stick' to that outline? (or do you even outline at all?) /ga

dwrighsr: ?

Poul Anderson: First I would like to say that I don't know of any two writers who work the same way. As for me, yes, I do a lot of preliminary work on background, plotting, characters, etc. before starting to first draft. Even so, I'm often surprised along the way./ga

AGplusone: Randy, GA

AGplusone: David Wright is in the queue ...

Randyjj55: Mr. Anderson, did you ever consider the possible connections between Brainwave and the additional capabilities showed by the individuals there and how we would see something similar today? That is, consider what we would be if we were able to have all the capabilities of an autistic savant, or those who have demonstrated a "photographic" memory, or some other 6 sigma ability, and have it available along with a "stable/fun" personality. Would we consider that person to be a Mike, a saint, a magician?/ga. Should be functional personality as well as fun :-)

Poul Anderson: We might; so far at least nobody has ever been good at everything. But some individuals, like Leonardo da Vinci, have been astoundingly versatile and made a correspondingly strong impression on others. /ga

AGplusone: David (dwrighsr) you're up

dwrighsr: Good evening Mr.& Mrs. Anderson. I am a particular fan of your time travel stories. Some of your stories seem to have a great deal of 'changing' the past and present, whereas others seem to treat time as rigid. Do you favor one or the other theories? (PS Also loved Star Fox. Just finished re-reading it)/ga

siannon prime: ?

ddavitt: ?

AGplusone: [queue is siannon (Jani), then ddavitt (Jane) ... }

siannon prime: What kind of fiction do you most enjoy writing? Humorous, or more scientific/philosophical?

siannon prime: Oops, sent that too early. Sorry

Poul Anderson: From a strictly logical and in fact scientific viewpoint, I think time has to be "rigid," both past and future. However, this is perhaps not so; there are some hints that way in quantum mechanics. Whatever the truth may be, one makes the assumptions the story calls for.

AGplusone: [Poul will go back and get you when he's done with David, Jani :-)]

siannon prime: No prob :)

Poul Anderson: Jani, no special kind-- some individual stories have been more fun to work on than others, but they weren't necessarily all humorous. /ga

AGplusone: Okay, Jane. Your turn.

ddavitt: Did you grow up hearing about the Scandanavian legends from your family? Or did you discover them later on? They seem to be in several of your fantasy stories, like the Time Patrol ones and Op Luna. I always liked that particular set of gods, especially after reading the Incomplete Enchanter books.

Poul Anderson: There were some books in the house when I was a child, and others from libraries and such that got me interested. I  took it from there myself. But really, I'm not obsessed with it, most stories of mine don't even touch on it, do they? /ga

ddavitt: You don't think of it as being part of your heritage then?

AGplusone: Queue's empty ...

Randyjj55: ?

siannon prime: ?

DenvToday: ?

AGplusone: [queue is Randy, Jani, Denv ... and Jane's pending perhaps rhetorical ?]

Randyjj55: Obviously a writer should have as broad a background as possible. Any specific courses you would recommend a beginner taking to help them become a good SF writer? /ga

AGplusone: Go ahead, Randy

Poul Anderson: Oh, yes, I would call it part of the heritage of everybody -- at least in the western world. (K:I grew up on it, myself, but I'm not Scandish.) I do have some knowledge of the languages which doubtless makes some difference./ga

Pnther5o5: ?

ddavitt: Thank you.

AGplusone: [queue:Randy's pending, Jani, Denv,Pnther ...]

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

AGPlusOne: [maybe science courses to keep ships from doing 180 degree turns :-)] Randy's sending you a log, JJ, to catch you up. Queue after Randy is Jani, Denv, Pnther ...

Poul Anderson: I would say that no person in this day and age can be considered educated without some knowledge of science and mathematics. But how this is acquired is a matter for the individual. Otherwise, I would suggest learning and experieneing as much and as widely as possible, and -- sine qua non -- WRITE. However, creative writing courses seldom seem to be helpful, and I've seen a few promising talents that were wrecked by them. But the Clarion "boot camp" approach has launched a number of successful careers./ga

AGPlusOne: Okay, siannon's question is up

siannon prime: Do you look at current scientific advances and equate them to the predictive element in your stories from, say, 30 years ago? I've recently read Heinlein's Expanded Universe, and I was interested in the way he kept a check on whether his "predictions" had turned out correct, or not. /ga

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

AGPlusOne: ?

AGPlusOne: !

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

dwrighsr: ?

AGPlusOne: [pending queue is Denv, Pnther, AG+1...]

Poul Anderson: We science fiction writers (including even Heinlein) missed a lot. For instance, we had heroes exploring the galaxy with slide rules at their belts. In general, I don't think science fiction is predictive at all. It is imaginative and extrapolative, and any successful "predictions" it makes are nearly always on the shotgun principle. Of course, a really thoughtful writer may get something right in principle, but even then the details are wrong. For example, in "Solution Unsatisfactory," Heinlein foresaw nuclear physics applied to war, and that this would change international relations in basic and radical ways, so it doesn't matter that the weapons and course of events in the story were different from what came along in actuality. In this fundamental sense, Heinlein certainly did predict. /ga

AGPlusOne: Denv, ga

Silverdrake1 has entered the room.

DenvToday: Mr. Anderson, Orion Shall Rise is one of my favorites. In our real world, those open to technological development (Norresterners in the novel) seems to be in conflict with the ecologically- concerned Luddites (the Maurai in the novel). The recent WTO clash in Seattle captured this conflict. Which side do you think will win? Which side do you want to win? /ga

AGPlusOne: [Pnther505 is next in queue ...following which we take a five minute break ... I really need that cuppa tea]

Poul Anderson: I am both a technophile and a conservationist. I hope we can strike a balance. We'd better. As for what will actually happen, I just got through saying nobody ever knows. In the story I tried to show a conflict of viewpoints and ways of life, none of which were inherently evil or unreasonable. /ga

AGPlusOne: Go, Panter

Pnther5o5: Mr. Anderson, you were mentioning outlining and preparing and surprises. Have you ever accidentally written yourself into a corner despite your outline? And, if you could, could you give an example and the resolution? I only ask because last week  was_awful_:-)

Poul Anderson: Yes, sometimes as writing moves along I realize that something I had in mind wouldn't work unless -- usually -- everybody concerned was an idiot. In such cases it's back to the drawing board. Fortunately so far this hasn't required scrapping the whole thing. Sometimes, too, it will turn out that there is a factual error which needs correcting. For example, when Karen and I were writing The King of Ys, which is set in the late Roman empire, we showed a priest giving baptism. Then we found out that at the time only bishops did. So this called for some rewriting./ga

AGPlusOne: Five minute break to wind cat, put out dog, and find Poddy or a cuppa tea ... please be back at 6:09 PM EDT :-)afk now. Randy, you have the conn.

Randyjj55: OK Boss ....

AGPlusOne: Somebody invite Sean in, please ...

siannon prime: Sean's awake, is he? Good!

siannon prime: Free drinks, all - bar's thataway!

Denv Today: Alas, I have to leave. I'd like to thank Mr. and Mrs. Anderson for Thursday and today. It's been a real thrill for me.

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

Denv Today: Good-bye for now...

Randyjj55: I'll take my usual chocolate shake, shaken, not stirred .....

siannon prime: Bye Denv!

Pnther5o5: Tea time believe it or not.

Denv Today: Take care :-)

Poul Anderson: So long, Denv

siannon prime: Coming up, Randy, sir...

Denv Today: Thanks again.

siannon prime: Tea for you, John?

ddavitt: I'll stick to plain, cold water :-) Bye Denv.

Randyjj55: Thank you, madam!

DenvToday has left the room.

siannon prime: Here you Jane. Ice and lemon?

ddavitt: Just plain......

siannon prime: Here you go, even :)

ddavitt: Forgotten what fizzy pop tastes like...:-(

Pnther5o5: Yeah, I go through about five cups a day.

JJ Brannon: I'll have hot chocolate.

ddavitt: Did you get onto that site OK Sean?

Randyjj55: Saw your ESA thread Jane, hang in there, because you are totally right and pthhht to the naysayers ...... My research and the articles I wrote back you up entirely ....

Gaeltachta: Thanks Jane.

Pnther5o5: I asked that question because I wrote myself into a corner last week.

ddavitt: Thank you Randy <g>

Pnther5o5: But his answer reminded me of the last book I turned in. A major plot point revolved around a US presidential election in 2003:-D

siannon prime: Hot choc for JJ ... Hi Sean!

ddavitt: David never worked at ESA but his old company built stuff for them; SOHO satellitle being one I remember.

Silverdrake1: What was going on with it?

Gaeltachta: Hi Jani.

ddavitt: No one says my husband works for second rate companies :-)

siannon prime: Jane, ESA thread? Wassat?

ddavitt: Oh, spinoff from the gratitude to US thread. European Space Agency

KultsiKN: May I ask people to put something in their personal info windows, please, so that I might know a bit with whom I chatting... (Updated mine a sec ago...) :-)

ddavitt: Err...what's one of them Kultsi?

Silverdrake1: Umm, how do you do that?

Randyjj55: SOHO was a major effort and has provided some sterling data ..... David should be proud - almost as proud as he should be of his littl'uns - since it was probably like another child.

AGPlusOne: [okay, back, pending queue is me, then David Wright ... then open ... tea tastes good ... Everyone ready?]

geeairmoe2: Sean, I need an Australian to American translation: What is "an occasional flutter on the pokies."

JJ Brannon: By the way, John, there's a DNA analyst in Britain matching surnames to genetic samples.

AGPlusOne: Ready, Karen and Poul?

Silverdrake1: ?

Pnther5o5: :-D Toldjya

KultsiKN: Buddy List, Edit Profile

ddavitt: He was...built Skynet 4 and Inmarsat and lots of others.

Poul Anderson: Yes, we're ready.

Silverdrake1: Thanks.

Gaeltachta: Basically "Have a bet now and then" ... prob on poker machines ...

AGPlusOne: Tell us more about this Clarion writer's boot camp, please.

geeairmoe2: Thanks, Sean.

Randyjj55: ?

AGPlusOne: [protocol back on: queue is dwrighsr, Silverdrake1:, randyjj55 ... ]

Poul Anderson: K:There are two or more Clarion writers' workshops, one of them in Seattle. They last for six weeks, with a different professional teaching each week plus one in charge overall; they have daily class sessions with lectures and assignments; the meetings involve ruthless criticism. Some people can't take it, and quit. The survivors have a high rate of sales afterward. I think I've seen ads in Analog. /ga

ddavitt: Aren't you due a question AG?

Pnther5o5: ?

AGPlusOne: Okay, I'll take it. Where do I get info on this program? Enrollment, etc. /ga ... if you could dig it out, if need be, I could pass it on after the meeting by e mail ...

Poul Anderson: K:We'd probably best answer you privately. I don't know just where to find the details. If you have an address for Joe Haldeman, Greg Bear, or Vonda McIntyre, they can tell you -- they've taught there. We've never been involved ourselves./ga

J P Ogden has entered the room.

Poul Anderson: Sure, when we send it to you , you can pass it on./ga

AGPlusOne: Thank you. Let's go to dwrighsr

J P Ogden: hello all I apologise for being late

dwrighsr: I don't recall if you ever predicted anything like what we are doing tonight. What pros and cons do you see in such exchanges? I am on several newsgroups and lists and the misunderstandings can really get out of hand sometimes. Do we need a new 'written conversational language' to be able to express better what we mean when we are lacking all of the visual and auditory clues present in ordinary conversation?

AGPlusOne: :-)

dwrighsr: Present company excepted. We are all always polite.

J P Ogden: :)

ddavitt: We're scared of David :-)

AGPlusOne: David is "nice" they're scared of Zim8-)

ddavitt: Who wouldn't be?

siannon prime: I ain't scared! Who said I was? :)

Merfilly8: !

Poul Anderson: I can't speak from experience, never having been involved like this before. I would guess that various useful conventions, stylistic devices, etc. will evolve -- there is already a basis in the typographic "faces" ;-) isn't there? Much more will surely be done./ga

AGPlusOne: http://www.sff.net/clarionwest/workshop.htm (THANKS to Will's search machine). Panther, I think you're up

Pnther5o5: Mr. Anderson, any suggestions for when it feels like the muse has taken a powder and ideas are like drilling for oil in Minnesota?

ddavitt: ?

AGPlusOne: [queue is Merfilly, then Jane ... ]

Silverdrake1: Umm, what about me?

Merfilly8: [I withdraw my place]

AGPlusOne: ooops, Silverdrake, Jane ...

Poul Anderson: As I remarked Thursday, ideas aren't hard to come by, if you have that turn of mind. And if you don't, you shouldn't be trying to write science fiction. Of course the really great and seminal ideas are rare. One can only hope for the lightning to strike. If you're referring to --

Pnther5o5: Sometimes it feels like there's a dam, there. And once I drill the hole, watch out. But drilling the hole is tough.

Randyjj55: ? :( sniff, sniff

Pnther5o5: Sorry, I hadn't meant to send that.

Poul Anderson: -- a dry spell, where you simply don't feel like writing, you can either go fishing or -- if you're serious about it -- grit your teeth and go ahead anyway. The result will probably be all right, regardless. Since after all there is such a thing as skill. For analogy, a mason can lay a perfectly good wall whether or not he feels like working that day. K:See the excerpt --

pakgwei has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: ?

AGPlusOne: [see also:http://www.msu.edu/~clarion/ AGPlusOne: You're up, Silverdrake

siannon prime: ?

AGPlusOne: ooops, number two ... up when Karen finishes.

Poul Anderson: -- from Daniel Keyes' autobiography, relating to "Flowers for Algernon," in the current F&SF./ga

Silverdrake1: [SCAdian waves "Hi!"] I have a problem that drives me (and my critiquers) nuts. Some of my best writing comes when the characters go their own way. Unfortunately, that's also where I get the most flab in the stories. Where do you draw the line between necessary character interaction, and letting the characters run away with the story?

AGPlusOne: [queue after Silverdrake's pending question is:Jane, Randy, Sean, Jani...]

Poul Anderson: K:When characters go their own way, it may be that they're the wrong cast for your plot. (Poul) For myself, I usually try to work up characters to whom the story events could plausibly happen; even so, now and then, they'll tell me they jolly well don't want to do something. Of course many stories have involved characters who wouldn't ordinarily get into these scrapes. For instance, a librarian tossed into the Conan universe. Then the story becomes how he or she copes with it. 'ga

AGPlusOne: [do Irish Larkins count as Scandahoovians, Poul? ;-)Have to go back four generations for them.] GA, Jane.

ddavitt: Mr Anderson, you have written books with others and sometimes with Mrs Anderson. Do you have to know someone very well to do this? Can it lead to arguments? :-) I imagine that sharing control over a book must be difficult at times and involve a lot of compromise yet some authors (IMO) write best when they write as a team; Niven/Pournelle for example. Which method do you prefer? Or does it vary according to the book?

geeairmoe2: ?

Poul Anderson: Collaborations are like marriages: some work well, some don't. Some fail completely. And no two are ever alike. I have only collaborated with two or three people, and in each case we went about it differently./ga

AGPlusOne: Randy?

Randyjj55: Mr. Anderson, your "Beyond the Beyond" is one of my favorite short story collections, because of the many great stories within it. One of them, "The Sensitive Man", led me to read your Psychotechnic League stories. (NB. Not to be confused with the Polesotechnic Stories) Did you develop this "Future History" sort of series because Heinlein had pioneered the concept? Have you ever thought of going back to that series, and extending it or have you wrung everything you want from it? How do you decide to "finish" a series? Do you, the "Characters" or the "Editors" decide that? :-) /ga

AGPlusOne: [queue pending is Sean, Jani, Will ... ]

Poul Anderson: Yes, that first future history was directly inspired by Heinlein's. One reason I dropped it was simply that real life events didn't follow it -- for example, World War Three didn't come along on schedule. And indeed, so far, not at all. I have absolutely no regrets about that! As for finishing a series, James Blish once said there are two kinds: there's the template series, which can go on indefinitely (like StarTrek) with essentially the same situations. And then there's the other kind, which goes from here to there and stops, having made its point, and being in fact a kind of loose-jointed novel. I ended the Polesotechnic series, partly because it seemed to me to have made its point, and partly because science caught up with it. For instance, now we know that nowhere does Jupiter have any kind of solid surface, as it did in the Flandry stories. On the other hand, I don't think the Time Patrol is quite used up yet. There are still some ideas to explore, and I would like to do it some time./ga

siannon prime: Scrub my question, David, it's already been answered!

BookOworm has left the room.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: ?

TAWN3: Has it started?

ddavitt: 90 minutes ago...

siannon prime: ?

AGPlusOne: Sean's question's up

Poul Anderson: Hello Tawn, hello Bill. Thanks for the pre-posts and log. --Karen

Gaeltachta: Sir, what prompted you to write "Conan the Rebel"? What influence did REH have on you and your writing?

BPRAL22169: Glad it arrived safely.

TAWN3: Hello Mr. Anderson. Pleased to meet you again.

BPRAL22169: We talk a lot -- don't wwe?

siannon prime: Speak for urself, elf :)

BPRAL22169: You appear to be in a question session, so I'll shut up now.

AGPlusOne: [queue is, after Sean's pending question ... Will, Jani, Jane]

Poul Anderson: L. Sprague de Camp invited me to do one, and he is not a person I ever want to say 'no' to. Also, the Stygian setting was a good tax-deductible excuse to visit Egypt and get some background, which in fact we did. As for REH's influence, I came to him a little late. I had always enjoyed a certain amount of literary blood-and-thunder, and he certainly provided a very good brand of it. /ga

Gaeltachta: Thank you, I always enjoyed the Conan stories.

AGPlusOne: [I enjoyed Howard so much ... wish I could have found more forty years ago] Jani, your question.

siannon prime: Your comment about the "loose-jointed novel", above - do you think an author should eventually tie up all the loose ends which result from a future history series (both in terms of internal plot ramifications and real-life scientific advance) or just leave the reader to accept the inconsistencies?

AGPlusOne: [Will, you're next ... ooops number three]

Poul Anderson: Whether or not to make such an effort is the author's choice. However, I have often said that perfect consistency is possible only to God Himself, and a close study of Scripture will show that He doesn't always make it. /ga

AGPlusOne: Will, up

geeairmoe2: In "Expanded Universe" Mr. H. wrote of how he tried to 'retire', but the (writing) monkey was too much. It was impossible to just loaf for two or three days before he had to return to his typewriter. How long can you go without before you are forced to 'feed' the monkey? /ga

AGPlusOne: [queue is Jane .... ]

AGPlusOne: ? and ?

Poul Anderson: I don't think I am compulsive about it any more, though probably in youth I was. These days, I am compulsive about paying the bills./ga

AGPlusOne: Jane's up

ddavitt: You say that you stopped because science caught up; do you think that setting stories in a slightly alternate universe where say, Jupiter was solid would be "cheating"? Or would you simply prefer to base your stories as much as possible around current knowledge so as to impart a little learning along with the entertainment as Asimov and Heinlein used to do?

millerj13 has entered the room.

Gaeltachta: ?

millerj13: hi all

ddavitt: Hi.

AGPlusOne: [queue is Jane's pending quetion, then Sean ... I'll skip me]

Poul Anderson: If a writer wants to do a solid-Jupiter universe, and can thereby tell a good story, fine. I would find it more interesting if s/he went into the physics and chemistry of that universe at least a little bit, to suggest what differences in natural law or even just in physical parameters there would have to be to make a solid Jupiter possible. But as long as it is a good story, why not just settle back and enjoy it? /ga

millerj13 has left the room.

ddavitt: Seems reasonable. Writing SF shouldn't be a license to get away with anything!

ddavitt: :-)

AGPlusOne: Sean is up

Gaeltachta: I'm not sure if this has already been asked (I arrived late), what is your favorite Heinlein story/s? Do you prefer "hard" or "soft" sci fi?

Poul Anderson: Agreed./ga

BPRAL22169: You can't get away with anything! Basic law of the universe.

Pnther5o5: The only basic law of the universe is TANSTAAFL

siannon prime: Tanstfaal? :)

ddavitt: What about death and taxes? <g>

BPRAL22169: There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Pnther5o5: And that might be broken in Hawking space.

Silverdrake1: [burn the heretic!] ;-)

BPRAL22169: I think that's the same law.

siannon prime: Who heretic? :)

Pnther5o5: If you die while your extension is still filed you miss the taxes part.

ddavitt: Bet someone still has to pay them....

AGPlusOne: Haven't heard anything from Kultsi, pakgwei .... ? queue is empty after Sean ....

Silverdrake1: You heretic. Go read "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" by RAH

siannon prime: Bill, I was late replying and John beat me. I know what tanstaafl is!

TAWN3: ?

Randyjj55: This is looking like another 5 minute break, unscheduled version .... :-) Go ahead TAWN3

Poul Anderson: Gaeltachta -- I'd hesitate to name any single favorite. But I am very fond of Beyond This Horizon and The Moon is  a Harsh Mistress. As for hard vs. soft sf, there have been great works of both kinds. The hard stuff does have a certain intrinsic interest, even charm, which often makes up for some purely literary weaknesses. /ga

Gaeltachta: Thank you, yes two of my personal favorites as well. (Gaeltachta = Sean)

AGPlusOne: It's coming isn't it ... Five minutes, after TAWN3 ... be back at 7:05 PM EDT ....

TAWN3: Pleased to meet you again to Karen! Mr. Anderson, What made you come back to the Matuchek Story line after nearly thirty years? /ga

Poul Anderson: I had thought the concept was used up, but from time to time a notion would occur and I'd jot it down. Then Harry Turtledove's delightful The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump appeared, and jolted me into realizing that something fresh was still possible. /ga

Randyjj55: Glad you did so - it was like meeting old friends again....

AGPlusOne: [Jane has the conn .... equal opportunity to run aground! .... Break until 7:08 PM, EDT]

ddavitt: OK!

geeairmoe2: I have to be going now. Many thanks to the Andersons for letting us access their thoughts.

TAWN3: Yes. except I met them back to back!

ddavitt: Bye Will.

geeairmoe2: What's up for the 29th?

ddavitt: Don't know...

TAWN3: goodbye Will.

Poul Anderson: KA: Geeair, so long. Glad to have talked to you.

Pnther5o5: Bye!

AGPlusOne: MWSTM and Requiem, Will

ddavitt: We did put forward lots of suggestions a bit ago.....

Gaeltachta: Will, don't "flutter too much on the pokies...!"

stephenveiss: Bye!

ddavitt: Oh, sounds fun.

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

Pnther5o5: Green hills, Requiem, TEFL.

ddavitt: Still can't believe the order they were written in.

BPRAL22169: David, have you discussed the B&N situation yet?

Randyjj55: KA Who is YOUR favorite SF author/story?

Pnther5o5: What's with B&N ?

Gaeltachta: I agree Jane. When you pointed it out I was flabbergasted.

ddavitt: They host the Thursday chats.

dwrighsr: And?

ddavitt: yes, R had such an air of being a sequel.

Randyjj55: They hosed up Thursday ...

Gaeltachta: Should be a good discussion.

BPRAL22169: How delicately -- but accurately -- you put that!

ddavitt: I gathered something had happened from the log

Randyjj55: Sorry, just a talent of mine.... :-)

AGPlusOne: No, Bill. We'll discuss that after the meeting, maybe mostly by e mail.

BPRAL22169: An enviable faculty!

Pnther5o5: Well, why not just set up a permanent chat room? We have one for Baen's Barflies.

AGPlusOne: That is what we think we'll do ....

Pnther5o5: Everyone just uses an AIM shortcut.

BPRAL22169: Sorry to step on the subject.

Poul Anderson: K:Naturally my favorite SF writer is Poul. I latched onto him after meeting him at the 1952 Worldcon.

ddavitt: Or scrap it and come over to AIM <stirs flames>

AGPlusOne: maybe with Jon's help and others.

Pnther5o5: :-D

ddavitt: Should have anticipated that answer Karen!

siannon prime: Someone tell me what you're talking about??

Pnther5o5: Well, we looked at all the chat systems and this is the easiest one to do that with.

ddavitt: The AOL chats Jani

Randyjj55: KA: OK, I deserve that - AFTER the esteemed Grandmaster, who else do you enjoy?

siannon prime: B & N?

Pnther5o5: If you're in AIM you can set a shortcut.

ddavitt: Barnes and Noble; like Amazon

Pnther5o5: Under the "file" menu. You set up a particular name.

stephenveiss: The people who host the AOL chats...

Poul Anderson: K:Too long a list to try to give.

Pnther5o5: Then anytime somebody who wants to chat can "go to the room" and see if any of the regulars are around.

Pnther5o5: It's working great for the "barflies" from Baen.

Merfilly8: Good idea about the chat room

ddavitt: Have you ever written a book yourself Karen? Apart from the ones with Poul I mean?

Silverdrake1: And boy, do we get into some wide-ranging discussions! :-)

Randyjj55: B&N = Barney and "Not-so-Noble"

Pnther5o5: Guys, I gotta go look for salamanders with my kids.

siannon prime: ok, got it

ddavitt: See you John.

Pnther5o5: Karen, Poul, it has been wonderful talking to you.

Silverdrake1: Wah. Bye-bye. Don't get burned! ;-)

siannon prime: Salamanders? Magic Inc?

BPRAL22169: If you catch a fire elemental, let me see.

Randyjj55: Very diplomatic Karen, I'll stop the harassment ..... :-)

Pnther5o5: I hope to see you at a con somewhere.

Featherz Dad has entered the room.

Poul Anderson: K:Tor published a collection of our work that included solo short fiction and verse of mine. I've never written any long solo work.

Poul Anderson: So long Panther

Pnther5o5: John Ringo, I'm coming out with a book in October. From Baen obviously.

AGPlusOne: Welcome Featherz Dad. "Bob" says hello

siannon prime: Hi Bill

Randyjj55: And the name of the collection is ????

Pnther5o5: And he bought the sequel and I'm collaborating with David Weber.

Featherz Dad: Hi folks

Poul Anderson: Hope to see you-- we go to some Eastern cons as well as Western ones.

ddavitt: Yes, I'd like to read them, Karen

Pnther5o5: So, I hope to see you sometime.

Silverdrake1: [sigh] Must be nice to be in salamander season. We're getting snow. :\

Pnther5o5: Farewell. ::POOF::

Poul Anderson: The collection's title is The Unicorn Trade.

Pnther5o5 has left the room.

ddavitt: We had snow on Tuesday; today it's hit 80F. Canada!

ddavitt: Thank you.

pakgwei: I think Iremember what snow looks like

Silverdrake1: Colorado. :p

ddavitt: White, wet, surprisingly heavy to shovel <g>

Merfilly8: It Snowed in January, melted, and we've been unseasonably warm since

Randyjj55: Snow is great on postcards and on the other side of a large picture window, while you are next to a fire, sipping hot chocolate....

AGPlusOne: Okay ... almost ready to go back on .... in one minute ... asking for ?s and !s .... queue is empty.

Silverdrake1: One year we had last snow on July 4th, and first of fall on Labor Day!

pakgwei: only seasons we get here are rain and tourists

Featherz Dad: we had snow last Sunday. I saw it out the window and started laughing. what are you gonna do?

Poul Anderson: K:Snow! Must you use these 4-letter Anglosaxon words?

Silverdrake1: LOL!

TAWN3: ?

ddavitt: Could we go to general chat on the topic for the last 30 mins and let Poul and Karen relax and join the chat?

siannon prime: Will they get a word in edgeways? :)

ddavitt: I feel like Torquemada

Poul Anderson: K:If I'm quick.

Featherz Dad: OK, I will go get him for you

AGPlusOne: We could try ... what's your pleasure, Karen? Poul?

Randyjj55: Only if they use Thor's hammer to pound the words in ..

Silverdrake1: Shhh!

Poul Anderson: We'll go any way you want.

ddavitt: Thanks Featherz !

dwrighsr: The nice thing is that you can respond at your own speed. The bad thing is trying to figure out what the response is for

siannon prime: Religious disc on Randy's part

Poul Anderson: It does get sort of intertwined

siannon prime: No fair to non-Odinists :)

AGPlusOne: Okay, let's take TAWN's ? and then go the way the winds blows .... if you'd like to go back to a particularly point, or want the floor Poul, say so and it's yours.

TAWN3: Yes, it does. Intertwined.

AGPlusOne: You're up, Tawn

TAWN3: Poul, Karen, if I may call you such... I have a two part question:

Poul Anderson: Okay

TAWN3: Recently NASA has suffered some setbacks, especially with the Mars program. Do you think that;

TAWN3: 1. "Faster, Better, Cheaper" is workable? (I'll wait for your answer before the second part).

TAWN3: (I don't BTW)

Randyjj55: !

Poul Anderson: K:No way. P:Up to a point, it has worked. Unfortunately there seems lately to have been too much emphasis on faster and cheaper, at the expense of better. Let's hope this can be remedied. K: People at JPL are having to do two jobs at once instead of concentrating on one.

AGPlusOne: [that's part of theme in Operation Luna, isn't it?]

TAWN3: :-)

BPRAL22169: They could do it if they recovered the "JPL Culture" instead of the DC mentality.

J P Ogden has left the room.

Randyjj55: As an engineer, I always have to teach my management that the mantra is: "Faster, Better, Cheaper", which two do you want? Most of the time, they don't listen. That's when the fertilizer hits the ventilation system, and the program enters the well-known death spiral.

Poul Anderson: Yes, and also a wish that private enterprise can get into the act more. Of course Operation Luna is just a fantasy. There are some good hard sf stories about the possibilities, for instance Greg Benford's The Martian Race. Randy -- There is, or used to be a slogan posted at one of the aerospace companies (I forget which):"You can have it fast, cheap, good. Pick two."/ga

J P Ogden has entered the room.

AGPlusOne: [wb JP

J P Ogden: whee, that was fun

Featherz Dad: signing ON was lots of fun for me and Feather wasn't even on the keyboard

J P Ogden: <grin>

AGPlusOne: [glad you made it]

TAWN3: protocol please

AGPlusOne: [both of you clowns]

J P Ogden: :oP

Featherz Dad: we're ALL bozos on this bus

AGPlusOne: [agreed]

Silverdrake1: Do you think the main problem with Faster, Better, Cheaper being mutually exclusive is the same thing that happened to the Challenger? Too many beancounters between the engineers and the people running the show?

Randyjj55: Most of them - I've worked with them all ..... :-)

Featherz Dad: The Challenger brings up another problem. Are we too soft to accept the lives that HAVE to be lost in this sort of thing?

AGPlusOne: [or the recent disclosure with what happened with the Mars lander ... a midlevel deviation that wasn't authorized or known at other levels?]

TAWN3: My second question you have somewhat preempted :-) It was: What are your feelings on the privatization of space exploration. Thank you both /ga

Poul Anderson: In that case, it was not beancounters but politicians who insisted on going ahead with the launch./ga

Silverdrake1: But it was the beancounters who blocked the info on the hazard from reaching the decision-makers, IIRC.

Merfilly8: It was a PR moment they did not wish to lose?

siannon prime: I've heard both sides. No-one will still up and be counted -- Still up? Stand up - sorry

Poul Anderson: About the Mars lander, probably "faster" was the problem. The larger the organization, the more readily confusion and chaos get in. The most obvious example is government, but we can also look at many corporations.

Featherz Dad: and some households

J P Ogden: And some Info tech departments

Featherz Dad: and alt.fan.heinlein

AGPlusOne: True and agreed ... the 'all the worms you can use for $1' joke in Luna ... Pentagon general says 'give me $2 worth' had me ROFL

Randyjj55: When I was working on the F117 and the B2, we got them done only because we had the resources, we had the best people, and we were left alone, because of the security.

ddavitt: I had to read that joke twice; then said 'duh!" Must be my civil service background :-)

Poul Anderson: You were at the Skunk Works, Randy?

Featherz Dad: He was THE skunk

Randyjj55: I was on active duty AF in the 80s, and am still on active reserve. I've been involved in lots of things, but mostly doing directed energy research these days....

AGPlusOne: Poul:ROFL=rolling on the floor laughing

TAWN3: Let's talk off line.

Silverdrake1: Nothing about which you can either confirm or deny, right? ;-)

TAWN3: (Addressed to Randy.)

Randyjj55: I'm currently the tech director at the National RCS test facility, located out at White Sands, NM.

Poul Anderson: RCS? Don't place it.

Randyjj55: Radar Cross Section

siannon prime: But that's only the day job <g>

Randyjj55: Right! Thanks Jani, for keeping me straight :-)

Poul Anderson: By the way, if anyone wants to talk with us by e-mail, we can be reached at trigonier@earthlink.net

siannon prime: S'okay, boss :)

AGPlusOne: Poul: question: both Jani in England and Kultsi in Finland have trouble getting your books ... dunno about Sean in Australia .... any suggestions for them.

TAWN3: Thank You Poul!

Featherz Dad: wow, Poul Anderson's email addy. Thanks

ddavitt: Thanks Poul and Karen; I'm sure no one will abuse that and bother you.

KultsiKN: David, you asked me for a comment or something. The fact is that I'm at a loss: Poul Anderson books are surprisingly hard to come by over here! I've read Tau Zero way back when, but that's about all. I went to the local library the other day, and they had only two titles to offer, in Swedish, and I was hunting for Op Chaos/Op Luna, which were the specific books on agenda today.

siannon prime: I can't get Op Chaos or Op Luna. I have most of the oldies <g> and shorts in anthologies. Recent works are tricky.

ddavitt: I couldn't get Operation Chaos but managed to get Luna from the library.

KultsiKN: Seemed like a good place to pop that in... :-)

AGPlusOne: Very good!

Merfilly8: While I found the newer books, but

nothing with any age

ddavitt: Our library has about 12 titles which

isn't bad the way they sell them off.

:-(

siannon prime: Nothing in library :(

Randyjj55: Kultsi, and others - Both of these are available from the Science Fiction Book Club as Operation Otherworld.

Merfilly8: thank you

AGPlusOne: Ah-ha!

Poul Anderson: If amazon.com isn't helpful, try The Other Change of Hobbit at <www.dnai.com/~ochobbit>

Featherz Dad: We had about ten titles at the Coop but we had a sale and now we have only one

siannon prime: Filly, we could swap...

KultsiKN: For that you need a credit card...

AGPlusOne: They (The Other Change of Hobbit) are the ones finally got me Luna on time.

Merfilly8: I'll get you a list of titles together

ddavitt: Have to expand the Heinlein Book Exchange to include other authors maybe.

siannon prime: Okay

dwrighsr: I've got 17 myself, including "Hueter der Zeiten" (brag) but not Chaos or Luna

AGPlusOne: We could, you know ....

TAWN3: Kultsi, I'll send them to you, as well as the masters of Solitude which we were talking about before. Just reimburse me with some local currency. I'll add it to my collection.

Merfilly8: thought of that the other day

AGPlusOne: And I've got that extra copy of Luna came late for you Jani

siannon prime: Do you think RAH would mind? Me, I don't think so...

ddavitt: Poul and Karen; that's something we have on alt.fan.heinlein where we buy very cheap copies of Heinlein to give away to others on the group who can't get them/

J P Ogden: I wish there was more Anderson as Books on Tape

Poul Anderson: Other Change of Hobbit can be reached by street mail at 2030 Shattuck Avenue, Berkeley CA USA. Poul is looking for the zip code. --94704.

AGPlusOne: [Other Change got me a copy in less than 24 hours]

dwrighsr: My wife has been bugging me about a book or stories of yours that she remember from way back. She said that there written with someone else. I was able to pin these down as the Hoka stories and she said to tell that she thoroughly enjoyed them. Must have been 40 or more years ago.

AGPlusOne: Highly recommend them

siannon prime: David, thank you! Will return as soon as read

Randyjj55: 17? Poor guy, I think I have at least 30-40 of Poul's titles.

BPRAL22169: I think Dangerous Visions has a Website. I'll see if I can send a link.

Poul Anderson: I'm sure OCH have arrangements about foreign funds.

BPRAL22169: 4 Hoka books now.

J P Ogden: Randy - me, too

AGPlusOne: Forget it ... belated birthday present from AFH and RAH RG Jani

Randyjj55: Gordon Dickson

siannon prime: Aw, shucks.....that's too kind

Gaeltachta: I have seen many of Poul's books on store shelves and in libraries over the years here in Australia. I'm not sure what might currently be new in print here though.

AGPlusOne: 'course it'll cost you ... you have to host the IWFNE chat

Featherz Dad: The Hoka were playing an RPG before anyone else heard of them

dwrighsr: Now you see 'Operation Chaos' in action !!!

ddavitt: I've never got into books on tape but my friends who drive long distances swear by them.

ddavitt: I think I read so fast, I'd get impatient.

BPRAL22169: No - the speed is about right for listening while driving.

AGPlusOne: LOL ... <-----Operation Chaos that way

J P Ogden: Jane - I commute 40 miles each way

siannon prime: Okay, you dumped the Magic Inc research on me and I coped, so I'm sure I can - er, get Stephen to do the techie stuff <G> Sounds like a good deal to me, dear :)

Randyjj55: Where you guys and gals really need to start at is the Internet Speculative Fiction Database, located at http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb/

Gaeltachta: And they usually edit for tape length!

ddavitt: I only go from the house to the kindergarten; it would take me a year to read a short story:-)

J P Ogden: gael -- about half do, but I tend to buy the unabridged

Randyjj55: Look up Poul Anderson under A (they also have Karen listed, of course) and you can see what you are missing....

Featherz Dad: Three Hearts and Three Lions would work on tape, I READ it to my girlfriend when it first came out.

ddavitt: plus putting up with plaintive requests for the Wheels on the Bus instead.

siannon prime: Jane, learn to drive and read at same time. You gulp a para in a glance, and digest mentally while steering

Silverdrake1: That's my husband's favorite.

Gaeltachta: Jon, good idea.;-)

ddavitt: I have been known to do that at traffic lights <sshh!>

AGPlusOne: We keep getting "What do I start my infant/young kid on?" questions on the newsgroup ... I think some of those are perfect to read to them

TAWN3: I have the original Dangerous Visions and Dangerous Visions Three.

siannon prime: I did it on the M6, but I did it *well* <shhh. also>

Merfilly8: <<<now humming Wheels on the Bus----bad Jane! ddavitt: Sorry!

Randyjj55: When you commute 150 miles a day in the desert, you can get a lot of reading done while you are driving. :-)

dwrighsr: Poul, Karen. You see what I mean. Just who is answering who?

siannon prime: Me too :(

Merfilly8: sorry

Poul Anderson: K:I've tried reading when the Caldecott Tunnel is backed up going to Berkeley...

AGPlusOne: Like the version of Goldilocks .... in Luna. Poul/Karen:who did that?

JJ Brannon: ?

AGPlusOne: Go ahead, JJ

ddavitt: Going back to the lead up to Magic Inc; I'm astonished at how many different forms of magic there are in the world. Op Luna used totally different

Featherz Dad: I always answer "what do I start my kid on" questions with " a partime job"

ddavitt: Moldylocks was funny!

pakgwei: I listen to those X minus 1 and Dimension X shows while I work

JJ Brannon: What major technical breakthroughs do you see happening in the next 5-10 years and how will it change society?

Gaeltachta: ?

Poul Anderson: That is taken from life, when our daughter was that age she went through a brief stage of hating baths as many children do, and we

siannon prime: Jane, same basic principle, different forms. Are we back on protocol? I'll hush then

ddavitt: Sorry; pressed send by accident.

TAWN3: at http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb/ is that the one that hasn't been updated a couple of years? I have it bookmarked.

AGPlusOne: [we'll get back to Ddavitt and

Gaeltachta .... in queue]

Poul Anderson: got to calling her Moldylocks. Of course she soon got over it.

AGPlusOne: [I thought that might be true ... ]

AGPlusOne: :-)

Poul Anderson: But meanwhile we'd made some jokes about that figure.

AGPlusOne: Okay, up to JJ, in [queue is after JJ, Jane and Sean ... and whomever is next ?]

ddavitt: Skip me David; it was just an observation, not a question.

Poul Anderson: JJ:The most important will probably be in the field of biology. I agree with those people who say that this will be the century of biology, and the XX was of physics and the IX was of chemistry.

AGPlusOne: JJ was:What major technical breakthroughs do you see happening in the next 5-10 years and how will it change society? That's all./ga

BPRAL22169: ?

AGPlusOne: Okay ... Sean next ..

Gaeltachta: I wonder if I could ask Mr Anderson's opinion on collaborations between countries and space agencies, now and in the future? Are programs like the International Space Station the way of the future? Is there still a need (apart from perhaps military) for nations to "go it alone'? Will private enterprise really be a major player as well in the near future?

Featherz Dad: ?

AGPlusOne: then Bill Patterson, Bill Reich ....

Poul Anderson: In my opinion, it's a terrible shame and setback that that international space station turkey wasn't shot down at the beginning. When I think of all the real science that could be done and the progress that could be made in space for that kind of money, I could weep. As for international space cooperation of more sensible kinds, this has already been happening for some time. As for private enterprise in space, I think that sooner or later something of the kind will have to happen or we'll never get any further. No society (capitalistic or otherwise) can keep forever throwing resources out there without some kind of eventual profit, that is, a return on the investment. Whether or not it will really happen, I don't know. But we can hope, can't we?/ga

J P Ogden has left the room.

J P Ogden has entered the room.

J P Ogden: testing...

Merfilly8: WB Jon

dwrighsr: revolving door?

J P Ogden: :0

AGPlusOne: Bill Patterson, up

Gaeltachta: Yes we can :-)

BPRAL22169: This is a very general question -- did the two of you wish to comment on any of the pre-meeting messages? A lot of ground was covered.

AGPlusOne: [queue after bpral is featherz dad ... then ? .... ]

stephenveiss: Apologies for breaking protocol, but just thought I'd say good night. I am honoured to meet you, Mr & Mrs Anderson. Good night.

AGPlusOne: Night Stephen ... sleep well.

ddavitt: It is getting late in the UK Stephen; good night.

Poul Anderson: K:I've already covered a couple. (So long, Steven.)

Featherz Dad: g'night

stephenveiss: Thanks...Bye

stephenveiss: has left the room.

Randyjj55: ?

JJ Brannon: Just want to say good-night to both of you gracious people & see you at Philcon this fall.

JJ Brannon has left the room.

AGPlusOne: [Stephen is 12 or 13 and built our AFH webpage ... photos of us, our families and cats ... and exposed us to the world]

AGPlusOne: Nite JJ

BPRAL22169: I will have to borrow Snowy, being ownerless.

AGPlusOne: Bill Reich, think you're up

Poul Anderson: K:One I wanted to get to was the loc from Unknown which didn't recognize Astoreth as a demon -- I think that's a Renaissance or earlier idea; I remember a woodcut of a decidedly nonfemale, nonerotic being.

ddavitt: Sounds very intelligent if he's the one we heard about on afh.

AGPlusOne: He is ... Ginny's got someone sending us a photo of Pixel for the webpage we're building ...

BPRAL22169: I don't remember if it came up -- but Astoreth was the female complement to Jahweh that got ousted from the Temple in Classical times. Some demon, huh?

AGPlusOne: but I'd like to have one of Snowy too.

Featherz Dad: Mrs. God, not an unlikely idea

BPRAL22169: Shows the process of "demonization" quite literally. Same for Mammon -- another semitic deity that becomes a demon.

TAWN3: Mithuna Couple? As in Hindu art?

Featherz Dad: Anyway, Mr. Anderson's name came up when some of my customers were discussing the Heaney translation of Beowulf the other day.

BPRAL22169: Moon goddess, I believe. Also goes by "Hastur."

Silverdrake1: I've heard there used to be a Hebrew goddess, but could never find any references...?

TAWN3: There was, J

AGPlusOne: That's her ....

BPRAL22169: And "Astarte" in the Babylonian pantheon.

J P Ogden: Lileth?

Merfilly8: Lilith was the Jewish first woman

Poul Anderson: K:One other thing -- I wanted to mention Harry Turtledove's new fantasy series, beginning with Into the Darkness and Darkness Descending. The theoretical sorcerers in this semi-Earthlike world are working on the relationship between the laws of contagion and similarity, and coming up with something really powerful --like A-bombs in our history.

Featherz Dad: Elohim is a feminine form, at least it CAN be, in Hebrew

Randyjj55: ?

Merfilly8: She didn't like Adam's uppity ways and got kicked out of Eden and had nasty rumors made up about her

TAWN3: Let's return to protocol.

BPRAL22169: But isn't "elohim" a word of praise?

AGPlusOne: After Featherz dad, Randy ....

TAWN3: Our esteemed quests are talking.

BPRAL22169: I think the formal name was jhwh

AGPlusOne: continue, Bill Reich ... your question, please ...

AGPlusOne: about the Beowulf translation

Featherz Dad: So, we were talking about Heaney's Beowuld and this Yale prof out of the blue says that the only other person he would have liked to see do it was Poul Anderson. I BEAMED. someone at Yale with a working brain cell

Poul Anderson: As for jhwh vs. elohim, they represent two different traditions --Elohim is plural and takes plural verbs. -- Tell tha Yale professor thanks!

AGPlusOne: [makes one at Yale, and one -- Haldeman -- at Harvard :-)] You're up, Randy.

Randyjj55: PA:If you were going to recommend another author to interview, whose works would be comparable to Heinlein's, who would that be? And by the way, if you want, I have some nice pictures of the F117 and B2 during flight test, suitable for framing, if you are interested. /ga

Featherz Dad: I thanked him for me, now I will thank him for you.

Poul Anderson: I haven't yet seen the Heaney translation except for a few lines in a review, but those do look very good.

BPRAL22169: You know, Beowulf done like Hrolf Kraki would be dynamite.

Featherz Dad: Heaney's is great. So would Anderson's be.

AGPlusOne: [I thought so ... about Hrolf Kraki anyway]

Randyjj55: PA:Also, did you give Heinlein any input on the People in Citizen of the Galaxy?

Poul Anderson: Comparable to Heinlein? Niven, Pournelle, Sheffield.. Haldeman perhaps ..I'm probably leaving somebody very obvious out.

Pnther5o5 has entered the room.

TAWN3: ?

Pnther5o5: ?

Poul Anderson: Randy-- No, he never consulted me.

Silverdrake1: :-)

AGPlusOne: Tawn's up.

Pnther5o5: Hi All.

BPRAL22169: Finnish, anyway, rather than Danish.

AGPlusOne: [queue is Panther after Tawn]

TAWN3: Mr. Anderson, Have you read Michael

Flynn? How do you compare nhim to Heinlein?

Featherz Dad: Ah, the Sisu

AGPlusOne: and as it is now two minutes to closing .... queue is closed.

TAWN3: Sorry for the typos

Poul Anderson: He's very good, and in fact very like Heinlein -- and one of the people I should have thought of a couple of minutes ago. /ga

AGPlusOne: Panther ... you get the last shot ... er, claw

TAWN3: Thank you. I will be reading him soon.

Pnther5o5: Karen:Picked up any more deer lately? Used that venison recipe a couple of times; thought of it when we were out with the kids and the local pair came by. And there was a diatribe against eating dolphin in it. Do you remember the anthology? Was the person serious and didn't realize it was mahi-mahi?

J P Ogden has left the room.

siannon prime: Mike Flynn used to post to afh, until a troll drove him away :(J P Ogden has entered the room.

Featherz Dad: Flynn didn't bring his billy goat

Silverdrake1: Tell him he can borrow a dragon. ;)

Randyjj55: Serve It Forth -- Cooking With Anne McCaffrey

Pnther5o5: There we go:-D

ddavitt: We've got plenty of dragons already......:-)

Featherz Dad: Us billy goats do trolls in quite well enough

AGPlusOne: It's been two lovely evenings .... on behalf of everyone, Thank You both, ever so much. This has been just great ....! Applause ....

dwrighsr: Well, I've thoroughly enjoyed the evening. My personal thanks to Poul and Karen for their patience and candor. Hope that we can repeat sometime in the future.

Silverdrake1: [applause, applause, applause!]

pakgwei: Thanks

J P Ogden: Applause and thank you so much

Featherz Dad: applause

TAWN3: Thank you VERY much Poul and Karen!

ddavitt: In Florida I thought dolphin on the menu was well, Flipper.

Featherz Dad: feather appluads also. OK so he doesn't

AGPlusOne: I certainly do .... applaud ....

Randyjj55: Three cheers for all of David's work in setting this up, as well as Ginny's contributions...

siannon prime: Much applause! More drinks coming up!

ddavitt: Many thanks for doing this twice in a few days.

Silverdrake1: mahi-mahi = dolphin fish

Poul Anderson: K:Glad you liked the deer recipe. We've met a few people who don't realize that mahimahi is often miscalled dolphin. The original title of the cookbook was Cooking Out of this World. Let me remind you that the venison recipe isn't ours, but Tony Boucher's; only the roadkill was our contribution.

TAWN3: Thank you David, and Ginny in abstentia.

Pnther5o5: I have the "Cooking out" version. Thanks.

AGPlusOne: Expecially for Ginny. David just caught the results of the invitation in a basket.

Silverdrake1: Wasn't it you two with the Barbarian Cream Pie?

dwrighsr: Did you hear that Secretary Albright fell under a bridge in Norway? and some kids saw her coming up and thought she was a troll?

Silverdrake1: heh

siannon prime: Should have mailed her to afh

Pnther5o5: Have a very nice night and good writing.

Poul Anderson: We're glad to have been here, it's been a pleasure talking to you all.

AGPlusOne: End formal chat ... if you'd like to stay, wonderful, if not, thank you both!

KultsiKN: Mrs & Mr Anderson, thank you for your time.

J P Ogden: the pleasure has been ours, sir

Merfilly8: Very much so

TAWN3: Troll :-)

siannon prime: We haven't frightened you too much, Poul and Karen? :)

Pnther5o5: Yes, thank you for coming by. This was wonderful.

ddavitt: drop into afh anytime!

Silverdrake1: :-):-):-):-):-):-):-) Please to meet you. :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

Randyjj55: Parsley Kraken all around!

TAWN3: Yes, Thank you both again.

Poul Anderson: K:I think I'll stay a while. Poul says he'd like to finish one more chapter before dinner.

dwrighsr: Kraken by Kracki!

Gaeltachta: Let me add my appreciation and congratulations.

AGPlusOne: I'll keep the room open if anyone wishes to discuss future plans re RAH group ...

TAWN3: Good!

Featherz Dad: wow, Poul Anderson, wow

Silverdrake1: And is your writing done for the day, JR?

J P Ogden: exactly:wow

AGPlusOne: [with or without AOL and any sponsor]

Pnther5o5: My writing's been "down" all week.

Poul Anderson: Parsley Kraken? Let me tell you about my kraken, lotus, and tomato sandwich.

ddavitt: I have been boasting about this chat to all my friends....:-)

Merfilly8: What's the idea of getting a permanent chat room all about, David?

n1yqh a: yeah, "wow" - both this chat room and the bits of "The Time Patrol" that I've been reading this afternoon...

Pnther5o5: I pumped out 40k words in four days last week and I haven't been able to put a word on paper since.

BPRAL22169: Puts you right to sleep, eh?

TAWN3: :-)

Silverdrake1: Yeeps! *comf* John

siannon prime: I'm going to bed now - goodnight, Poul, *so* pleased to meet you. Karen, I hope you enjoy the rest of the chat, and it has been a pleasure making your acquaintance. G'night all! Bar's on self-service! See you all tomorrow!

Pnther5o5: All you have to do is name a room something like "Heinlein Chat" and save it as a shortcut.

AGPlusOne: WE've been having too many problems with sponsors on AOL ... we need to build our own or incorporate an AIm chatroom in our webpage

J P Ogden: nite jani sleep tite

ddavitt: Surprised your fingers still work John...

BPRAL22169: You have obviously exceeded your bus capacity.

Pnther5o5: Then anytime somebody wants to chat they can just drop in.

Randyjj55: KA:Is the Cucumber Karina named after you, Karen?

KultsiKN: Nite, Jani!

AGPlusOne: Exactly, Panther... can even incorporate it into a website

Pnther5o5: That is all we do with Baen and it works really well.

J P Ogden: lord then I'll never get to work in the morning...

Poul Anderson: I forget -- is that in Cooking Out?

AGPlusOne: but we also need a good message board ....

Pnther5o5: Yeah, there is that problem.

Featherz Dad: I have a chat room in my Glory Road website but it isn't very elaborite

siannon prime has left the room.

Silverdrake1: Tell him to talk to Arnold. ;-)

Randyjj55: No, in Serve It Forth -- Cooking With Anne McCaffrey, 1996.

Pnther5o5: Set it up, I'll be glad to come by.

BPRAL22169: Has anyone else had trouble with scrolling in this chat room?

Silverdrake1: nope

Pnther5o5: I think it is Cooking out of this world, Randy.

J P Ogden: I've just had trouble staying connected, Bill

BPRAL22169: I noticed.

ddavitt: Only at the start

Pnther5o5: I remember the story because I hit a deer a couple of weeks afterwards.

Poul Anderson: We don't have a copy of Serve It Forth.

Pnther5o5: And sat there and tried to decide whether to drag it into the trunk.

BPRAL22169: But I tried to echo some of the conversation to Ginny and couldn't get the text selected because the scrolling kept re-setting to middle of the scroll bar.

Pnther5o5: But I didn't feel like preparing it so I past.

AGPlusOne: Anyway ... what I'm going to do is send out an e mail describing what we could do, and ask for help, or comments, and then go with what seems to be the best consensus ... the major problem isn't necessarily a room ... we could use AIM ad infinitum ... we need a decent message board and I don't want to impose on AFH more than necessary

Silverdrake1: My only deer:spike buck taken with a 1980 Pontiac station wagon.

ddavitt: Get the odd pheasant flying into the car in the UK...

Pnther5o5: :-D

Merfilly8: David, sounds like a plan

Featherz Dad: Passed up a free deer? I would, and have, killed for venison

Pnther5o5: "Skin that puppy out!" So have I. It had been a long day and I just didn't want to skin it out.

BPRAL22169: Just did it again when I tried to scroll back to read the top of Dave's long message just now. Very irritating.

J P Ogden: David -- again, I offer any help I can be

Poul Anderson: I don't know what got the veal deer Tony cooked, but I brought it home in the trunk of a Morris Minor.

Pnther5o5: You can save it as a text file and send it to her that way.

ddavitt: Afh can cope with it david..it is at least on topic.

KultsiKN: Why not newgroup a.f.h.nb?

AGPlusOne: Exactly, Jon. And I think we'll take it.

Pnther5o5: Try not to use punctuation.

dwrighsr: I am using a Guest Book on my own web page. We could set up another as a Heinlein Message Board

AGPlusOne: We could do that ... interim, Kultsi

Pnther5o5: Some people for some reason have a problem with that.

Featherz Dad: I could set up a website with a chat and a board. I have done two in the last two weeks but nothing elaborate

ddavitt: I can only get that thru deja; cumbersome

Pnther5o5: Do they run well? We've had problems with Java chats. That is why we use AIM.

Randyjj55: Actually, the way I have been sending everyone copies of the chat is to save periodically in text format, and then open it up with Notepad and cutting and pasting.

BPRAL22169: i've got a new site in progress.

pakgwei: no web chats please; they're always awful quality

AGPlusOne: Well, what we can all do is discuss and cover the various alternatives ....

ddavitt: I save it to drafts

Pnther5o5: That is my issue with them.

AGPlusOne: This is a web chat, pakqwei ...

BPRAL22169: BTW, Dave -- I believe you mentioned 8:00 p.m.; was that EDT?

Pnther5o5: True. Drop by the baen chat sometime, there are plenty of RAH fans.

Pnther5o5: Obviously.

AGPlusOne: For tomorrow? Bill? Yes.

pakgwei: this isnt web chat

Silverdrake1: ;-)

Pnther5o5: Since Baen is reissuing them.

pakgwei: this is aim

ddavitt: What's the diff?

Pnther5o5: Yes, this is AIM.

Pnther5o5: AIM is a well designed chat.

pakgwei: not web on my end anywaysn1yqh a:this is a seperate program vs. something running in Java on a web page

AGPlusOne: :-)actually, 'tis. It's better than iRC, etc.

Pnther5o5: Some webchat is simply awful.

ddavitt: ( i'm not a techie person)

Featherz Dad: should I know who you are, pnther505?

Pnther5o5: Not necessarily.

Silverdrake1: You should, come October! [grin]

Pnther5o5: John Ringo.

AGPlusOne: I'm not on AOL, for example, and neither are a number of others.

pakgwei: i wouldnt say better than IRC...

Pnther5o5: You might come october.

J P Ogden: If we have something thats running on the server instead of the client -- it will be as good as AIM

ddavitt: Been posting on afh recently.

Pnther5o5: Not everyone is going to read it.

pakgwei: but a lot of people on AOL have trouble accessing IRC

J P Ogden: its only when the browser has to do the work that things get bolloxed up

Featherz Dad: Oh, I know you from the NG

Pnther5o5: Sorry, but AIM is a good system.

AGPlusOne: Which is why I've suggested this kind of room ....

TAWN3: We hit a Deer with a Humvee going 60 miles an hour on the highway. Deer lost. Humvee unscratched.

Pnther5o5: Free, runs pretty well...

Merfilly8: AIM is good, better than its parent ISP

Pnther5o5: I agree completely, David.

AGPlusOne: because it's easy to use whether you're on or off AOL

Pnther5o5: TRUE!

ddavitt: I think two chats seems...redundant.

pakgwei: i have yet to see a chat client that isnt free

Pnther5o5: I used to be an AOLer.

ddavitt: Should merge...just MO of course.

Randyjj55: KA:Do you prefer the short story format, or poems. Silly question I know, but just curious.

AGPlusOne: We will ... and where we are heading Jane.

Merfilly8: I would be drawn and quartered if I hogged the computer both nights

Gaeltachta: I agree Jane. Can all AOL users access AIM?

AGPlusOne: Yes

ddavitt: They should be able to...

BPRAL22169: Yes -- I'm calling from AOL right now.

Gaeltachta: So what'sa the problem?

ddavitt: We non AOLers can't go to them; they can come to us. Only logical....

AGPlusOne: All it requires is any access from anywhere, except possibly WebTV, to the internet.

KultsiKN: The only payment this far for AIM has been some spam, speedily complained about,,, ;-)

J P Ogden: Thats makes us the mountain and them Mahomet?

ddavitt: I've never had any...

AGPlusOne: I can sign on from loop.com, as I did today, and I can sign on with AOL.

Gaeltachta: Exactly Jon :-)

Featherz Dad: its real good fried ddavitt

ddavitt: Seems that way; of course, some come to both chats.

Randyjj55: Only problem with AIM is that you have to be on AOL to login an AOLer. Tonight, I couldn't bring in some of the people, and I'm concerned that Zim is going to take away my stripe. :-(

Poul Anderson: It's a matter of what the concept is. Some things are obviously sonnets. Some are poetic in feeling but relativelyl extended narratives -- I'd never try to do something like "The Piebald Unicorn" as verse.

AGPlusOne: Um ....

Pnther5o5: yeah

ddavitt: I have to go; my own moldylocks has to go for a bath. thanks again Karen, see you all.

AGPlusOne: wish I'd known ...

Merfilly8: I downloaded AIM so I would have no more problems

Pnther5o5: The AOLers have to have AIM.

J P Ogden: Randy you grabbed me just fine -- and thanks. Nite jane

Pnther5o5: And even then, you have to keep the name of the room simple.

Featherz Dad: nite jane

Poul Anderson: you're welcome, ddavitt

Pnther5o5: Night Jane.

Gaeltachta: See ya' Jane.

AGPlusOne: Yes, in addition to AOL, they have to have AIM, but they don't need to sign on AOL if they've a separate ISP

ddavitt: Do I need to save or is it covered?

Featherz Dad: keep everything simple, we are all getting older

TAWN3: Yes, I had trouble accessing IRC, as well as the Undernet.

AGPlusOne: Night, give my best to Moldylocks and your David

KultsiKN: Nite, Jane

ddavitt: Do I need to save? or is it OK?

Pnther5o5: Gotta go. Baen's webscription is up. MORE BELISARIUS!

AGPlusOne: Please do

Pnther5o5: Night all.

Poul Anderson: Night Panthere

KultsiKN: Nite, John

AGPlusOne: Night, Ringo

J P Ogden: night John

Featherz Dad: night John

dwrighsr: Night John Boy

AGPlusOne: :0

Pnther5o5: Oh, Panther 505 was my regiment. That is the reason for the moniker. Pnther5o5: JohnRingo was taken.

Poul Anderson: I see

AGPlusOne: Strike Hold!

Pnther5o5: Night ::POOF::

Silverdrake1: And I think I'll go, too. Same reason! :-):-):-) Nice to meet you Karen. Thank you. :-)

Pnther5o5: DIABLO!!!!!!Pnther5o5 has left the room.

Poul Anderson: Night Silverdrake

KultsiKN: Night, Dragon

AGPlusOne: or H-minus ... forget which is the '05

Silverdrake1: :paft!::-):-):-)

dwrighsr: How about a quick roll call. I'd like to know everyone's real name. Mine is David Wright Sr.

Silverdrake1: has left the room.

Merfilly8: I have a new RPG character to make, so adieu one and all.

BPRAL22169: Bill Patterson

AGPlusOne: I'm David Silver, of course ... but everyone is free

J P Ogden: Jon Ogden

Gaeltachta: Sean Kennedy

n1yqh a:Mike Shear

Merfilly8: Stephanie Vickers

TAWN3: Bye ddavitt!

KultsiKN: Kullervo Nurmi, commonly known as Kultsi

Featherz Dad: night mer, thumb on the blade ,point up

Featherz Dad: Bill Reich

AGPlusOne: LOL

J P Ogden: night seahorselady

Merfilly8 has left the room.

Poul Anderson: Hello Kullervo, any relation to Paavo? (doubtless often asked)

Pnther5o5 has entered the room.

TAWN3: Night Ringo.

AGPlusOne: Karen, it's really been wonderful ... I forgot, H-minus or Strike, Hold?

Randyjj55: I see that "The Unicorn Trade" is out of print, so it's time to hit the used bookstores again.

AGPlusOne: ones's the '04, and t'other's the '05

KultsiKN: About the first question by foreigners :-) No, none.

Pnther5o5: Just because I'm in love with it, I had to come back and give you the url for it.

Pnther5o5: My coverart that is. http://www.baen.com/images/ahbb.jpg

AGPlusOne: I vas der rock

Randyjj55: Randy J. Jost

J P Ogden: grin, thanks John

Pnther5o5: It's the best cover, being objective, I've seen out of Baen in a long time.

TAWN3: Bye Silver Drake. Nice to meet you.

Pnther5o5: Night again.

Poul Anderson: Thanks Panther, I'll have a look.

Pnther5o5 has left the room.

TAWN3: Tawn3= Tawn Johnson.

KultsiKN: My first name should be about as well known:it's from our mythology...

Poul Anderson: I thought I recognized it. Wizard or hero?

BPRAL22169: Sibelius popularized you a lot.

Featherz Dad: BTW, why is the epilogue in the front in Harvest of Stars?

BPRAL22169: Or maybe that was another Kullervo?

ddavitt has left the room.

AGPlusOne: Btw, we'll mail out the log of this thing ... together with the AOL log ... and maybe post if it's agreed on AFH.

Featherz Dad: good idea, posting on afh

AGPlusOne: Chasgraft has already asked me to post the AOL on sff.

AGPlusOne: And I suppose we should post this there as well .... agreed?

BPRAL22169: that group seems to be picking up again.

Featherz Dad: yup

J P Ogden: ok by me

KultsiKN: Bill, t'was just the one

AGPlusOne: Sorry Sollars didn't make it ....

Poul Anderson: I'll ask Poul. -- It came chronologically after all the rest of the story, but it seemed to me that set at the beginning it would help establish the theme and the mood.

Featherz Dad: It worked great. Just got me going when I saw it there. I am a grump

Featherz Dad: by trade

AGPlusOne: JP:are you available tomorrow around 8 PM EDT?

Poul Anderson: It would suggest that this rather long and often sprawling

BPRAL22169: I was once a paid curmudgeon.

Featherz Dad: I have been a professional bad example

Poul Anderson: story was headed in a definite direction.

AGPlusOne: [we're having a little meeting to discuss rooms and board alternatives in private chat room on AOL then ....]

BPRAL22169: Now I am a freelance curmudgeon

Featherz Dad: It was a wondrous book but pessimistic in a way that makes, for me, the major difference between Poul and RAH

TAWN3: David, when? Now? Or do you mean this one? Sorry, I'm losing track.

Featherz Dad: I have only read it four times

Gaeltachta: Thank you David and all, for an enjoyable Sunday morning (for me). I wish the Andersons all the very best. Time to pull some weeds. Bye.

Poul Anderson: K:So long, Sean.

AGPlusOne: [tomorrow ... I'll sign on and pick off names from my buddy list and invite them on]

AGPlusOne: Night or morning Sean!

TAWN3: Bye Sean.

Featherz Dad: by Sean

Featherz Dad: or buy sean

Poul Anderson: If you're interested in what Poul is doing now,

KultsiKN: Bye, Sean

Randyjj55: Yes!

TAWN3: Yes, we are Karen.

AGPlusOne: fer sure

Poul Anderson: it's a second draft (hence interruptible) of a fantasy historical biography --

Gaeltachta has left the room.

Featherz Dad: I will undoubtedly read anything he is working on.

Randyjj55: How about setting up a Poul_Cam for all to see! :-)

TAWN3: Me too, now that I see the RAH connection. Read some, looooooong ago.

AGPlusOne: [I will now ... as I keep telling everyone I gave up on SF and fantasy years ago, but Luna's got me hooked back in again]

Featherz Dad: I loved the one about Harald Hardrada, all three volumes

Poul Anderson: about a real person, Gunnhild the wife of Eirik Bloodaxe king of Norway until he was thrown out, king of York until he was killed in battle--

Featherz Dad: I thought that SHE was declared integer

J P Ogden has left the room.

Poul Anderson: and her "wolf-pack of sons," as I think Fletcher Pratt called tham. She had Egil Skallagrimsson for a deadly enemy.

AGPlusOne: That is a fascinating period ....

n1yqh a: I'm falling asleep for some odd reason probably having to do with not sleeping much last night, so I'll see you all around on afh (except for the Andersons, of course, to whom I express my sincere thanks for being here tonight)... g'night

Poul Anderson: and with that kind of enemy you're never going to be forgotten.

AGPlusOne: Night Mike

KultsiKN: G'night, Mike!

Poul Anderson: Night Mike--

TAWN3: Bye Mike.

n1yqh a has left the room.

Randyjj55: How did Poul like collaborating with Gordon R. Dickson. I could see how they would do well together, given Gordon's interest in historical fiction also.

Poul Anderson: Egil and some others claimed she was a witch, so Poul is accepting that as fact. Hence it's a fantasy.

Featherz Dad: the narrator on a nature show said the other day that our enemies make us what we are.

BPRAL22169: Certainly true in evolutionary terms.

AGPlusOne: It's odd, historical fiction was so strong for so long, and now ... it's branched into what ??? Romance, some few survivors, and past speculative fiction like Willis and Crighton and what we're talking about here.

Poul Anderson: About Gordy, since they used to room in the same house in Minnesota, they spent a lot of time talking together, and that's when they began the Hoka stories. I don't think they've done anything else together, though.

Poul Anderson: Historical fiction is doing very well as a subset of the mystery genre. There are several series each of Roman, medieval, etc.

AGPlusOne: Romance=aka bodice rippers and some stuff that is a little better, like Fraser's Flashman ... Karen:do you know about Fraser's Sherlock Holmes episode in Flashman and the Tiger

TAWN3: Dickson and Poul roomed together here in Minnesota? I didn't know that! I live in Minnesota. When Poul was at the U of M?

TAWN3: Oh, obviously later.

Poul Anderson: Poul graduated from the U of M sometime around 1947 or 8.

AGPlusOne: Sure, Coleen McCullough is great.

TAWN3: I wasn't even born yet! Not for another decade.

Randyjj55: I know that Gordon wanted to do some historical fiction as part of his Childe cycle books. I often thought that he and Poul would do well to partner up on some of that effort.

AGPlusOne: And McCullough is still writing straight historical ....

Poul Anderson: I don't read the Flashman stories. And I really dislike Colleen McCullough, whether writing in contemporary or classical. She makes everything too sensational, in ways I don't care for.

AGPlusOne: I thought that was true of the ones about the priest but I really enjoyed her Rome series.

BPRAL22169: toga-ripper

AGPlusOne: If only for the research ....

Poul Anderson: Re the Childe Cycle, Gordy is perfectly capable of doing his own historicals. He gets paid better for sf and fantasy.

Poul Anderson: Toga-ripper! ROFL!

AGPlusOne: You might enjoy the Flashman and the Tiger episode ... about Holmes ... at least to know it's there.

AGPlusOne: Tiger isn't scheduled over here until next year.

BPRAL22169: I suppose you would call scheduling that far in advance "taking the long view"?

AGPlusOne: They wait a year before they publish outside the UK

Poul Anderson: If you want good classical settings, try some of the authors discussed on the "detective and the toga" website.

AGPlusOne: It's been out six months in UK

BPRAL22169: Oh - I thought you meant the Flashman discussion group

Featherz Dad has left the room.

AGPlusOne: I think the Roman History group we had has read some of those. They were good by all reports.

AGPlusOne: Another former AOL reading group fleeing from sponsors ... It was great to see the reference to "MacDonald" in that quote of John Atkinson's ... John Dann I suppose?

KultsiKN: Isn't AOL sponsoring clearly in the red?

AGPlusOne: And did you and Poul listen to Tom Lerher? They're also clearly in the wooden headed category.

BPRAL22169: "All the world seems in tune on a spring afternoon . . . "

Poul Anderson: We have several of the Tom Lehrer records, obviously including the song about Lobachevski.

TAWN3: Well, they should consider it a "loss leader" and let it ride.

AGPlusOne: Nicholai Ivanovich Lobachevki is my name!

Randyjj55: Well, I must go. I really enjoyed the chat and all the information and discussion. Karen, please convey my thanks to Poul. And thanks to you for staying around and chatting informally. Sometimes the most interesting information gets exchanged that way. :-) David, let me know if there is anything else you want me to do.

AGPlusOne: I will, and copy the log as a backup please. Thank you for everything Randy

TAWN3: Bye Randy.

KultsiKN: G'night, Randy

Poul Anderson: Remember why the good lord made your eyes, so don't shade your eyes, but plagiarize plagiarize plagiarize, only remember to call it please research!

dwrighsr: Night. Randy

AGPlusOne: Yes!

dwrighsr: Round off them Serial Numbers!

Randyjj55: Will do. Let me know if you need a copy. Also, I was serious about the offer for some photos, if you want some, Karen.

TAWN3: High Grading.

AGPlusOne: Jani gave me a website last week that has it recorded.

TAWN3: Highgrading.

AGPlusOne: But they are still available on 'records' and probably CDs

Poul Anderson: Night, Randy. Email me about the photos, please -- I don't want to try to scroll back

AGPlusOne: B2s and F117s

Randyjj55: Will do so. Thanks again.

AGPlusOne: Me too time to go. Thank you very much for staying over Karen ....

Poul Anderson: Oh yes! B2s etc!

AGPlusOne: and for the enormous favor of both of these sessions

TAWN3: Good night David. Thanks again. Good work!

Randyjj55: I'll send you an email and you can tell me where to send them.

AGPlusOne: Nite all.

TAWN3: Night.

KultsiKN: Night

TAWN3: Kultsi, did you ever find Masters of Solitude? Karen, did you ever read Masters of Solitude?

Poul Anderson: It's been a real pleasure joining you all. Thanks for inviting us, and thanks again to Astyanax. So long, and the e-mail again is trigonier@earthlink.net.

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