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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday 4-14-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

SAcademy has entered the room.

SAcademy: Good afternoon, David

SAcademy: No one else here yet?

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. No no one. I just woke up from my afternoon nap

SAcademy: Do you get a nap every day?

SAcademy: Oops, gotta change the music

DavidWrightSr: Not ususally. Some saturdays and Sundays, I do

DavidWrightSr: What are you listening to?

SAcademy: Beeethoven Triple Concerto, with Richter, Oisdtrakh, and rostropovich

SAcademy: It's a favorite of mine.

DavidWrightSr: That sounds nice. I don't get to hear much music. Mostly when I do it's musical comedies. Although I do like classical.

SAcademy: My last computer and this one have borh had music players.

SAcademy: I like the Russians, too

SAcademy: They have wonderful soloists

DavidWrightSr: My laptop does, so I can listen when Its turned on. Recently, however, I've been listening to Russian all the time trying to get my understanding back up.

SAcademy: It has von Karajan conducting

ddavitt has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jane. Ginny and I were just chatting.

ddavitt: Hi Ginny, Dave

SAcademy: Hello, Jane.

DavidWrightSr: Wonder where everyone is?

SAcademy: Dunno

ddavitt: Our guests have just left; thought I might not be able to make it.

SAcademy: Beach, maybe?

ddavitt: Friends who moved away last year, back for a visit

ddavitt: You must be a lot warmer than us :-)

SAcademy: That's nice. Enjoy it.

ddavitt: maybe with it being easter they're all away?

DavidWrightSr: We went through Spring in a day. It's like summer now

SAcademy: It's hot today--around 90

ddavitt: 70 last weekend for a day; T shirt weather but still has snow on the ground

ddavitt: Now the snow has gone but it's cooler

SAcademy: Odd combination

ddavitt: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: We used to experience that when we lived in Indiana

ddavitt: We have a short spring too; woosh it's summer

SAcademy: I have to get you home address again--I mislaid it.

DavidWrightSr: Well, we usually don't, but this year it was. Was that for me or Jane, Ginny?

ddavitt: I will email you if you like

ddavitt: Oops, I assumed that was me

SAcademy: Thank you, that would be better.

DavidWrightSr: I think it was you :-)

ddavitt: I smiled to read the log and see who the mysterious Heinleinsmof was:-)

ddavitt: I thought it was a late arrival

ddavitt: Glad Bill made it eventually

SAcademy: I guess I missed that part.

DavidWrightSr: As I said, the funniest thing was that we were playing guesssing games with Robert's name and there that name popped up.

SAcademy: So he said, and he thinks he can do it again today. I told him to download AIM 95.exe

ddavitt: Yes, it was after you left Ginny and just as I was going

ddavitt: It wouldn't let him on with his usual name; said it was taken. Which it is of course

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hello!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Kultsi. Welcome

KultsiKN: Thx!

SAcademy: I have that same trouble, that's why I'm SAcademic. AOL christened me that

SAcademy: Hello Kultsi!

ddavitt: Hi there!

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny, Jane!

SAcademy: How's the weather in Finland?

ddavitt: All ready with lots of questions and thoughts Kultsi?:-)

SAcademy: Abatch of CD'x started to slide off and I had to catch them

ddavitt: They are slippery aren't they?

KultsiKN: The weather's been sunny.

SAcademy: CD's

SAcademy: Warm yet?

DavidWrightSr: Our pollen count has been sky high. Rained yesterday and there was yellow slush all over the place.

KultsiKN: Relatively, yes.

SAcademy: Pine pollen I bet. We have the same thing here, and I have sniffles

KultsiKN: The first flowers are coming up.

SAcademy: That's nice. I have some roses. Peace

DenvToday has entered the room.

ddavitt: Not here yet..well i saw one stunted crocus and a few bulb shoots but that's it

DavidWrightSr: It's going to be one of those nights where it starts off slooow and people start wandering in. I betcha.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Denv.

DenvToday: Good afternoon to one and all.

ddavitt: I like those! Pink and yellow aren't they?

DenvToday: Hi :-)

ddavitt: Hi Denv

DenvToday: How is everybody today?

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

SAcademy: Fine. How are you

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jon.

ddavitt: Fine. i may have to vanish now and then to help David in the garage; he's trying to get the Camaro up on ramps and the wheels are too big

OakMan 7111: Hello Everyone

SAcademy: Hello, Jon

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

ddavitt: Hi Jon'

SAcademy: AOL has been trying to throw me offline for some time now.

DenvToday: Ah....you're taking me back to my misspent youth. I had a Firebird, which is basically the same car.

ddavitt: I don't get that so much

SAcademy: And they finally succeeded

DavidWrightSr: My that was a short visit :-)

ddavitt: Yes; it's his beloved toy; I want a minivan:-)

DenvToday: SAcademy, I'm very well, thanks.

OakMan 7111 has entered the room.

DenvToday: wb Oak!

KultsiKN: WB, Jon!

OakMan 7111: In and out today

SAcademy: AOL is having its usual fits.

DenvToday: I finally received the Gifford book from Amazon.com yesterday. What a treat!

OakMan 7111: I tried to edit my type face down a bit and locked up...

OakMan 7111: It's a good book

ddavitt: Yes; i use my copy a lot. Look for the jokes in the index:-)

DenvToday: Yes, all sorts of interesting tidbits.

ddavitt: So, is Bill coming or not?

ddavitt: I know he can't make the next one because of moving

SAcademy: He said so yesterday in an email

ddavitt: Well, shall we start?

OakMan 7111: GA Jane - my favorite book

ddavitt: I think the way it is set out is helpful and clear

ddavitt: Well, anyone got a point they want to look at?

ddavitt: We don't have to stick to the three questions rigidly

ddavitt: Have people who weren't here on Thursday read the log?

OakMan 7111: the Three are?

ddavitt: Erm

SAcademy: Most of it.

ddavitt: Why was it written in the future so to speak

OakMan 7111: It just showed up this a.m. I have been puttering on the website all day

ddavitt: Did Mike make it cheating

ddavitt: Too easy that is

ddavitt: Did it portray revolution as fun rather than serious

ddavitt: They were what Ahaseurus said on rasfw

OakMan 7111: Against the combined resources of an entire planet? If it wasn't for gravity and Mike, they wouldn't have stood a chance, would they?

ddavitt: I said that...he evened the playing field

ddavitt: Warden could starve them, switch off lights..had them over a barrel really

ddavitt: They had to be sneaky and they needed a secret weapon

OakMan 7111: Yes - and he's an OGRE type playing piece - extremely powerful, but if you lose him, you have lost

DenvToday: RAH underestimated the advances in computer technology, and overestimated the advances in space travel.

DenvToday: I love Mike as a character.

ddavitt: But do we have a Mike ven now?

ddavitt: even now

DenvToday: But his fiddling with the resources on Luna would have been detected instantly by any high school hacker.

OakMan 7111: Not to my knowledge

ddavitt: Hackers not thought of then; personal computers? Don't be silly!

KultsiKN: Jane, as hardware, we could have one, as SW, no way.

DavidWrightSr: RAH didn't predict the impact that Large Scale Integration would have on computer development, but then again very few did.

DenvToday: However...it doesn't matter. Nobody can be prescient about future advances. Given the state of technology in the mid-sixties, it all makes perfect sense.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: yes..don't have to be a prophet, just need to be entertaining and plausible

DenvToday: Good afternoon!

ddavitt: Hi Will'

geeairmoe2: Hello, all.

SAcademy: Hello

OakMan 7111: Ever read Venus Equilateral? (George O Smith) having the right vacuum tube is a major plot point in one of the books

DavidWrightSr: And as he said, no one really knows what self-awareness is in humans, so any prediction of it in computers is just as valid as the next guy's

OakMan 7111: Hi William

ddavitt: It might have happened; mannie kept it quiet:-)

DenvToday: Jane, I absolutely agree. TMIAHM is...I was going to say my favorite RAH work. But so are about 5 or 6 others. lol

ddavitt: Same here! Don't ask me to choose

OakMan 7111: I've worked with a couple of computers that seemed to have personality -- but they were MEAN

DenvToday: lol Oak

ddavitt: Desert island books...ooh I couldn't pick 10!

OakMan 7111: No question for me. Moon is it

KultsiKN: I've once met a computer that gave wrong answers.

ddavitt: do you have that radio programme here?

OakMan 7111: I didn't program it, I don't care what they told you, Kultsi

ddavitt: really? spooky

DavidWrightSr: I would say that it is my favorite of all of the Stranger and post-stranger works, My favorites are still the juveniles, but that is because I never grew up.

DenvToday: If you were going to a desert island, and you could take only ten books with you....which desert island would you pick?

ddavitt: one with a bookstore

OakMan 7111: LOL

SAcademy: Bill has the wrong software again!

DenvToday: lol Yes!

SAcademy: I sent an invitation to him

DavidWrightSr: Me too.

DenvToday: David, thank goodness that you've never grown up. None of the best people ever do!

OakMan 7111: If you could have a dinner party and invite 4 of RAH's characters to dinner - which ones?

SAcademy: Now we're all Peter Pans?

ddavitt: peewee and kip grown up

OakMan 7111: Not me - I played Captain Hook a half lifetime ago

DenvToday: Hmmmm...Lazarus of course. And Jubal. Dr. de la Paz. And Maureen Johnson.

ddavitt: baby on knee; no capitals for a bit

DavidWrightSr: Lazarus was my first thought.

KultsiKN: Minerva.

ddavitt: hazel not gwen

OakMan 7111: How about Mike?

DenvToday: Oh yes one more--Sir Isaac Newton. But we'd have to hold the dinner in a convention center.

DavidWrightSr: Which Mike? Mycroft or Michael Valentine?

OakMan 7111: Mycroft

DavidWrightSr: I'm not sure I could take sentient computers. the old-fashioned ones give me enough problems as it is.

geeairmoe2: Star, Friday, Maureen and whichever male character they'd all find repugnant so they'd pay attention to me.

DenvToday: If he were sentient, he'd get the hiccups from Windows 98.

DenvToday: rofl gee

DavidWrightSr: If he were sentient, he would have thrown Win98 out the window.

DenvToday: true

ddavitt: Just chatting to Bill brb

ddavitt: trying to get him in

SAcademy: Good luck

KultsiKN: Goodness, what a pun: defenestration for Windows...

ddavitt: No; he is going to try something else

DavidWrightSr: At least, tonight, I had no trouble inviting him. No nonsense about software not being able to chat, but it doesn't look like he is making it in.

OakMan 7111: You guys laugh I program for windows and it has been very very good to me :-D

SAcademy: He probably didn't download AIM 95 exe as I told him to.

ddavitt: He is going to get out of aol and ome back on AIM

DenvToday: My brother is a Mac fanatic. He still hasn't forgiven me for using a Windows machine.

DavidWrightSr: Well, for that matter, so do I, and to be truthful, I am not in the general class of Microsoft bashers. I know how hard it is get a computer to do anything, much less anything that complicated.

OakMan 7111: David Silver is one, too. But I forgive him

ddavitt: I know nothing...

ddavitt: But I get by

OakMan 7111: With a little help from your friends?

SAcademy: David Silvr tried to get me to get a Mac instead of this one

DavidWrightSr: Compared to what I was programming 30 years ago, it is fantastic.

DenvToday: Yes, true David. I don't bash Microsoft or Bill Gates. But I am annoyed that Microsoft so often releases a product that by all rights should still be in beta.

KultsiKN: Agree, David.

SAcademy: I like Windows--think it's great

OakMan 7111: Francesco and I tried to tell him that Netscape on Mac was not exactly a mainstream choice for a browser, but he didn't want to hear it.

ddavitt: Yes; people like to help

ddavitt: And I'm vert grateful when they do

DenvToday: I must admit that Word is my favorite word-processing program.

OakMan 7111: Hey Denv - I'm doing the beta of XP - its an alpha :-)

ddavitt: I have Netscape but with Windows; i like it

DenvToday: Woohoo!!

KultsiKN: Word is better than anything else I've tried.

DavidWrightSr: Jane. wasn't one of the questions about TMIAH was whether or the revolution had 'failed'.

ddavitt: Anyway, stop all this!! Bill will shout at me if I let you all go off topic:-)

OakMan 7111: I used to love Word Perfect

ddavitt: That's better Dave:-)

OakMan 7111: but in the days of DOS

KultsiKN: And, IMO, Netscape is better than IE.

SAcademy: Anyone else remember CP/M?

OakMan 7111: Yes, I do

ddavitt: I don't know if it was exactly or if we just got onto it but let's take a look at that

SAcademy: Wasn't it fun?

KultsiKN: Me!

OakMan 7111: LOL - computers were fun back then - like flying an open cockpit plane

ddavitt: What were the aims of the revolution?

SAcademy: I used that and Magic Wand for two years

ddavitt: If it was to stop the imminent famine them it worked

DenvToday: David, it's the nature of all revolutions. They ALL eventually evolve into what they revolted against. Britain of 1776 seems positively benign compared to the mega-state the United states has become in 2 centuries.

OakMan 7111: Same as those of the American revolution - to gain the rights of an Englishman

ddavitt: It also got the Loonies out on their own

ddavitt: They made mistakes but they were their own mistakes

SAcademy: Does that make them good mistakes?

DenvToday: Good question!

KultsiKN: And the shotgun went into other hands...

ddavitt: As prof said , 'Free! You have won your freedom!"

OakMan 7111: I kept thinking the revolution was too bloodless

DavidWrightSr: You are now free to starve :-)

ddavitt: Yes I think it does SA; only way to learn is by making mistakes

DavidWrightSr: The ramps at the Bon Marche were certainly not bloodless.

ddavitt: Anyway, they didn't do anything wrong as such; just copied earth instead of being novel. Some would say that was better

ddavitt: Lots of deaths

DavidWrightSr: and even in the breakup of the first meeting, Remember Shorty?

ddavitt: 2000 troopers, 6000 loonies in the final attack

DenvToday: It seems to be the nature of homo sapiens never to learn from history.

OakMan 7111: No they weren't - nor was the death of Shorty - but I expected later incidences

ddavitt: All the darwin Award idiots on earth with the picnic baskets

DavidWrightSr: And the crashing of the attack ships and the people who stood on the spot where the rocks came down.

OakMan 7111: Jane in that final attack - did we see anyone die besides Mike?

ddavitt: brb

KultsiKN: There were some reported

OakMan 7111: Gee, the question wasn't that tough :-)

ddavitt: Wasn't that the same attack?

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

DenvToday: lol Oak

ddavitt: Talking to Bill

ddavitt: And here he si

Heinleinsmof: Success!

ddavitt: clap, clap

Heinleinsmof: Thanks for the help.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome. O mighty one!

ddavitt: Final attack was the one when Ludmilla died and those 8000 pople

ddavitt: No prob!

ddavitt: Doesn't that seem a lot?

OakMan 7111: Ludmilla, yes, I'd forgotten her

Heinleinsmof: I think I"ve just got too many new and unfamiliar things going on at the same time.

DavidWrightSr: New and exciting world of computers O:-)

OakMan 7111: really? like what?

ddavitt: All the invaders, 2000 died. 6000 loonies dead, similar number wounded. Like white blood cells, they rushed to the invasion points and killed the bacteria

Heinleinsmof: I'm using a laptop, at a new location, completely new installation of AIM, etc.

ddavitt: We see a girl hazel's age die probably

ddavitt: But it' all working now?

DavidWrightSr: Is my memory off? I thought that there was some time between the landing of the ground troops and the final attack.

Heinleinsmof: Seems to be.Cross fingers.

Heinleinsmof: There were several landings, weren't there?

ddavitt: I think there is Dave

ddavitt: It's all in the last few pages which is confusing me

geeairmoe2: I have to be going. I'll try to wander back if I can.

ddavitt: Hope you can

OakMan 7111: Oka, hope you do

ddavitt: Saturday, ship crashed by Mike

Heinleinsmof: Kind of a reverse invasion like War of the Worlds

ddavitt: Sunday, Monday boing continues

DavidWrightSr: That's the trouble, (and beauty) of Heinlein's writing. We make so many assumptions when we read them that it is sometimes hard to remember exactly what the sequence of events were.

ddavitt: bombing that is

SAcademy: I can't read that font.

ddavitt: It is strange Bill

DavidWrightSr: Whose font, Ginny?

SAcademy: Bills

ddavitt: Bill's is angular, like handwriting

Heinleinsmof: Is this better?

ddavitt: NO!!:-)

SAcademy: Not really

DavidWrightSr: I don't see it that way, must be a font I don't have. I keep seeing it normal

ddavitt: I assume that was a joke?

DenvToday: Hmmm...I'm getting it as Times New Roman. I must not have that font.

ddavitt: Oh...

Heinleinsmof: Ok. How about this?

ddavitt: Well it looks funny to me

ddavitt: That one's fine

SAcademy: Could that be lightened some?

ddavitt: It looks just like mine so it must be OK:-)

SAcademy: It's the only thing I see on the page

KultsiKN: Bill, you come as Times to me as well, every time.

DavidWrightSr: Same here.

Heinleinsmof: This is as light as it gets.

KultsiKN: Bill, what's the font's name?

SAcademy: Shouldn't that be "hof" at the end of your name?

OakMan 7111: Now youve gone very light for those of us who are getting you as Times Roman

DavidWrightSr: That's ok as long as Ginny can read it.

OakMan 7111: true

Heinleinsmof: OK -- you should be able to read this one -- it's basic Arial Black

KultsiKN: Jon, what's your font?

DenvToday: Well, as Garbo said, "I font to be alone."

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

SAcademy: Improving

Heinleinsmof: Urk

OakMan 7111: Comic Sans MS

ScottW469 has entered the room.

DenvToday: Hi Scott

OakMan 7111: Hello Scott

Heinleinsmof: That's right. I had forgotten about that font.

ScottW469: hi all

SAcademy: Hooray, it's readable.

ddavitt: Hi Scott

Heinleinsmof: OK -- I'll leave it there.

DavidWrightSr: Now we get to do it all over again with Scott :-)

ddavitt: Bill, do you want to take over hosting?

ScottW469: :-)

Heinleinsmof: NO, we don't: Scott, please go to Comic Sans font; one of our members has vision problems.

DenvToday: Ariel has a font. Why not Caliban?

Heinleinsmof: Not particdularly, Jane.

ddavitt: I'm sure you are chomping at the bit with questions

Heinleinsmof: Nor Titania

ScottW469: will do

Heinleinsmof: We'll get to them. For my benefit and Scott's, could you summarize what has gone before?

DavidWrightSr: GA Jane. :-)

ddavitt: Well, we have been looking at the likelhood of sentient computers

ScottW469: done :-)

Heinleinsmof: I'm afraid most of the commentary available about that subject is abysmally ignorant.

OakMan 7111: We brought up the question of was Mike cheating

ddavitt: Examining the death toll to see if the rev was bloody enough to make question three wrong

ddavitt: So basically, we've touched on all the original questions

DenvToday: I wonder if Arthur C. Clarke was thinking about Mike when he created HAL.

DavidWrightSr: I mentioned the question about whether or the revolution 'failed'. don't think we made much headway with that one

ddavitt: When was 2001 written?

DenvToday: 1967 or 1968

ddavitt: I think it didn't fail Dave as it stopped the water running downhill

DenvToday: Just after TMIAHM

Heinleinsmof: 2001 was being written about the same time as TMIAHM; I suspect they were parallel developments -- the film was rleased in 1967

ddavitt: Moon was 66 , yes?

Heinleinsmof: Published in 66 -- also written that year, I think.

ddavitt: The short story, The Sentinel didn't have HAL IIRC

Heinleinsmof: It was supposed to be a Christmas book but they didn't print enough copies.

OakMan 7111: revolution is usually about people without 'enough' power getting it.

SAcademy: Written in 65, published in 66

DavidWrightSr: I agree with what Bill wrote. It accomplished what it set out to do. But like so many things, the actual consequences were not necessarily the ones they would have wanted, especially Prof.

Heinleinsmof: "Power to the "Correct" people.

ddavitt: whether it went where Prof wanted it too is another matter but after all it wasn't for his benefit

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

Heinleinsmof: Well -- what actually was it that Prof wanted?

ddavitt: Less of everything

Heinleinsmof: He suggests a lot of different alternatives, but doesn't really say what he wanted

DenvToday: Was chaos theory being written about in those days?

ddavitt: Government wise

OakMan 7111: But the noble goals always become compromised, once the power has changed hands

Heinleinsmof: From this I infer that what Prof wanted was for them to be self-determining. This is 100% achieved by the revolution.

ddavitt: It's irrelevant; the people didn't want it and he set it up so they were in charge

DavidWrightSr: I think that he would have been happy with the society going on as it was just without the drain that grain shipments mean to them.

ddavitt: Very noble of him really

ddavitt: Or realistic

DavidWrightSr: mean--meant

Heinleinsmof: Trying to get a handle on what standards Ahasuerus used to come up with the idea that the revolution failed . . .

DenvToday: David, much as most Americans would have been here in the colonies had Britain not been irretrievably stupid.

Heinleinsmof: The only thing I can come up with was Luna changed from a frontier society to the start of a "civilized" society at that point.

OakMan 7111: Yes, bill, but they start selling their birthright for a mess of pottage, don't they?

Heinleinsmof: Well, they were doing that before, weren't they?

ddavitt: I find it interesting that H could've written it as it happened and given us a happy ending

ddavitt: Instead, he wrote it in flashbacks and we KNOW it didn't work out from the first line

OakMan 7111: Yes - and the revolution for a moment stops that from happening

DenvToday: But was the ending happy? For the short term, yes. But we already see what it's going to become.

Heinleinsmof: The value I see Heinlein posing here is that, no matter what, it is better to be self-determining.

Heinleinsmof: And it's worth a high cost.

DenvToday: And he was right about that. It is worth a high cost.

Heinleinsmof: "The tree of liberty must be replenished from time to time with the blood of patriots."

OakMan 7111: I think that RAH makes the point over and over again, that its not whether you get to the destination, but how you travel the road that counts. Mike, Mannie, Shorty, etc - they traveled it as it should be done.

DenvToday: "A republic--if you can keep it." I see many similarities between Ben Franklin and Prof. de la Paz.

Heinleinsmof: Sgt. Roberts in Starman Jones.

ddavitt: Prof was willing to have royalty

OakMan 7111: I once suggested that Mannie was George Washington, Bernardo was Ben Franklin; Wyo was all of those guys from Virginia, and Mannie was John Adams

ddavitt: Interesting!

Heinleinsmof: I don't think that quite works out.

OakMan 7111: Not Mannie as Adams - Mike

ddavitt: I found it also cautionary the way the US appears in the book

Heinleinsmof: Prof fills the role of Washington better -- plus the John Adams role.

ddavitt: They aren't nice to the moon at all and they've lost their own independence

OakMan 7111: Nope he's too smart to be Washington:-)

Heinleinsmof: Oh, that's right: Adam Selene was Washington. That's why he had to be gotten rid of.

OakMan 7111: And GW has artificial teeth

Heinleinsmof: All of Mike's teeth are artificial!

DavidWrightSr: Mike was *all* artificial

Heinleinsmof: gmta

DenvToday: When we speak with Neil Smith next month, ask him his opinion of George Washington. It may shock some of you.

OakMan 7111: Mannie is the general

Heinleinsmof: (Not if you've read The Probability Broach)

OakMan 7111: Not me

DenvToday: hehe...true

ddavitt: So far, i can't get any of his books in the library

OakMan 7111: He wrote an excellent book about the Whiskey Revolution, too

Heinleinsmof: It may be necessary to order them from EB

Heinleinsmof: ay

ddavitt: I will have to look in the used book shops

Heinleinsmof: or Bibliofind

ddavitt: maybe so.

OakMan 7111: Jane, I may have an extra copy of 1 or 2 - send me a mailing address?

ddavitt: We do have some excellent used shops in a 30 minute drive radius

Heinleinsmof: People don't recycle those books to used book stores.

DenvToday: There are several used book stores online.

ddavitt: Will do if i can't get any from the librray; thanks Jon!

Heinleinsmof: It's the way Heinlein was 25 years ago.

OakMan 7111: k

ddavitt: Yes but I sometimes get slapped with huge custom fees from the US into canada

ddavitt: makes them expensive

OakMan 7111: Sometimes I think we should expand the book program - but the logistic might get crazy

Heinleinsmof: I'm shocked -- do the Journals get customized?

DenvToday: The two novels I'd suggest to you if you haven't read Smith before: The Probability Broach and Pallas.

ddavitt: Yes, I think Don was too busy to contemplate it but it would be nice

ddavitt: I've noted them down; thanks!

Heinleinsmof: And then read Their Majesties' Bucketeers just for the fun of it.

ddavitt: I've been to Amazon and read the reviews there which is a good start

ddavitt: Gives me an idea

DenvToday: He also wrote 2 novels in the style of Sabatini/Forester Henry Martyn and Bretta Martyn. Darned good reads, both of them.

DenvToday: Yep

ddavitt: Is that one of the pirate ones?

ddavitt: Henry martyn one looked fun

OakMan 7111: Lol - the new Cliff's notes: Amazon's reviews

ddavitt: Well they are!

ddavitt: Funny how the reviews can be wildly different tho

OakMan 7111: Didn't say otherwise honest:-)

Heinleinsmof: But not as useful. I tried looking at the Stranger reviews -- my god, people have a lot of time on their hands!

ddavitt: And dismaying how badly written some of the customer comments are

OakMan 7111: I was doing a lookup a few days ago it struck me how impossible it would have been to do what i was doing, 25 years ago

Heinleinsmof: Yup -- you could do something comparable -- but it was a very highly specialized librarian's tool.

ddavitt: Yes; if i had been able to get all these books when i had wages too....

DavidWrightSr: I was thinking of that when I mentioned my first programming 30 years back.

ddavitt: <sob.

OakMan 7111: Stranger is like the bible and army regs - you can find anything you want to prove anything you want to prove, if you look hard enough and tweak it just a little...

DenvToday: lol Oak. So very true.

Heinleinsmof: Actually, what you have to do is selectively ignore the parts that don't fit.

DenvToday: I wonder if RAH would be dismayed by the New Ageism attributed to him.

Heinleinsmof: Hey -- it's a worldmyth: it has to contain everything or it wouldn't work.

ddavitt: back to moon; i liked finding all mannie's mistakes but, like the Kilroy bit, it might prove hard to spot them as time goes by:-)

ddavitt: i mean, the Boston Tea party was real, wasn't it? <innocent grin>

OakMan 7111: I love it when Heinlein does that. It says so much!

Heinleinsmof: Great characterization -- Cabell did something like that, too, to show how ephemeral are the most "vital" of our current concerns.

DenvToday: If I'm not mistaken, Mannie was one of the first RAH protagonists who wasn't super-competent.

Heinleinsmof: I'm always puzzled whens omebody says something like that.

DenvToday: Why?

OakMan 7111: Denv - John Lyle

DenvToday: I didn't realize I'd said a cliche. lol

Heinleinsmof: Heinlein's protagonists aren't "super competent." They are simply ordinarily adequate human beings -- see the definition in TEFL.

ddavitt: He was better than average but not a genius. He was that rarity in fiction; a nice person

DavidWrightSr: It's always been very ironic to me that they have 'Lunaya Pravda' as a newspaper. As 'Pravda' means truth, and 'Novost'", (another big soviet paper means 'the news') there was an old joke in russian that there was 'No News in Pravda and no Truth in The News'

ddavitt: I have to go and give lauren her baby rice ( not rusks this time!) brb

DenvToday: Well...we must know different people. Most people I know are ignorant, intellectually lazy and self-satisfied. One of the great pleasures in reading RAH is spending some time with characters who aren't.

OakMan 7111: It seems to me that most of heinlein's characters are folks who have a lot ot learn when they start

OakMan 7111: but they have the potential to learn it

DavidWrightSr: But like the people 'in the moon' in the FH series, (Its great to be back), they are the kind of people who make it nice to be around.

DavidWrightSr: and don't have the ordinary cussedness we take for granted on the Earth. (or something like that)

OakMan 7111: I have never figured out whether I could have like Lazarus in person half as much as I like him on the page

ScottW469: that would depend on if it were his 'younger' or 'later' years

DavidWrightSr: What you said about having a lot to learn. That's why I always get a kick when people talk about RAH's 2-dimensional characters.

OakMan 7111: true Scott

DenvToday: Oak, that's an excellent point. He would be more than most people could handle. But the real question is whether he would have found any of us interesting or useful enough to spend time with.

OakMan 7111: Actually I may just be thinking of it when they were forcing him to stay alive against his wishes

DenvToday: I've always found that interesting--it goes against one of the precepts you usually find in RAH's work--a man owns his own life. If he desires to die, that's his right. And RAH does explore that contradiction.

Heinleinsmof: Lazarus Long loved every loveably human being.

OakMan 7111: Yes - they give the lie to almost everything they say they believe in, when they revive him -- 8? 9 times?

KultsiKN: But did not find many of them loveable.

Heinleinsmof: Then why did he collect them so apparently at random into his family?

Heinleinsmof: Paraphrase: It is possible to love every one of the great majority of people.

KultsiKN: no.

Heinleinsmof: Every person he comes into contact with in TEFL becomes part of his Tertius family, eventually.

DenvToday: Love, yes. Respect? Probably not.

OakMan 7111: Someone once said that until you stand up to me, I don't know if I can lean on you. LL seemed to collect the folks who could say "no." to him

Heinleinsmof: Respect -- definitely; it's just LL's brand of respect.

Heinleinsmof: Every person at his own level.

Heinleinsmof: Look -- I "respect" the integrity of my 11 year old nephew, and love him, too, but he doesn't get treated like an adult.

Heinleinsmof: He doesn't have the intellectual or emotional wherewithal to do adult stuff.

OakMan 7111: And if he's peewee, you're upseting him <grin>

Heinleinsmof: Part of "respect" is treating them as appropriate to where they are at the moment.

DenvToday: I'm not the one to ask. They still seat me at the kiddy table at family gatherings.

ScottW469: but again, that could depend a lot on where and when they are being brought up...

ddavitt: and if he's clark you're in big trouble

Heinleinsmof: True. But Aquinas said something like "love is expansive of itself."

OakMan 7111: My ex wife used to insist that 11 years olds should be treated as "young adults"

Heinleinsmof: Your ex wife is a fool

ScottW469: those on a farm, for instance, tend to 'mature' into responsibility sooner

OakMan 7111: You met her, too? <grin>

DenvToday: For most of history, a boy or girl was considered an adult when entering puberty. And usually had adult responsibilities.

ScottW469: exactly

Heinleinsmof: Yes -- we prolong childhood (attempt to) until it is hell and pain to the adolescent.

OakMan 7111: because until recently adult responsibilities could be handled by a post-pubescent

DavidWrightSr: I'm reminded of Rod Walker when he returned to his family.

OakMan 7111: Or Red Planet - hasn't the age of emancipation been raised to 25 on Earth?

ScottW469: but once we bestow 'adulthood' on them, they still need guidance

DenvToday: David, good point. The mayor of Cowpertown was suddenly a child again--in society's view.

ddavitt: brb again; l crying lots, may need to go to bed

Heinleinsmof: People grow at diffrerent rates, too

OakMan 7111: When Matt in Space Cadet returns home - his parents treat him as a child

Heinleinsmof: But I'm curious about what was just said: what adult responsibilities can a bright 14 year old not handle?

DenvToday: None I can think of.

OakMan 7111: AIDS

DavidWrightSr: It seems that Mannie too, even though he was definitely no longer an adolescent had to pass through that 'maturing' to get to be a real 'adult'

Heinleinsmof: If a 14 year old can handle Leukemia, he can handle AIDS

DavidWrightSr: Having a baby?

Heinleinsmof: And, as it happens, 14 years olds already are handling AIDS

OakMan 7111: he doesn't have, imho, the time=binding sense that will get him to wait until he has a condom

DavidWrightSr: A lot of 'adults' don't have that

Heinleinsmof: Right. Prolonged adolescence is a psychological disease of our era.

DavidWrightSr: I'm not one to talk. As I said earlier, I've never grown up :-)

DenvToday: David, of course. Throughout most of history, girls (women) started having children by age 14 or 15. They'd have one per year--most of which would die. And she would be dead before 40.

OakMan 7111: Prolonged adolescnese is a bad idea - treating a child as an adult is a bad idea, too

OakMan 7111: sorry, my typing is going - tired fingers

Heinleinsmof: People should take on responsibility for themselves as soon as they are able and willing to do so.

DenvToday: They didn't have the luxury of long childhoods--life was short, and bread had to be earned.

Heinleinsmof: That does not mean to abandon

OakMan 7111: yagreed, but we are talking about who makes the judgement as to when they are ready and what standards they use

Heinleinsmof: Unfortunately, we want to treat people according to "general rules" whereas the reality is no general rule is going to be appropriate to all people

Heinleinsmof: Thta's really not so difficult, Jon.

OakMan 7111: Oh really?

Heinleinsmof: Kids take on responibilities naturally according to the activities they are engaged in.

DenvToday: I absolutely agree. Totalitarianism can't exist without treating people as groups rather than as individuals.

OakMan 7111: Kids take it on and then run like hell when its not as easy as they thought it would be

OakMan 7111: so do some adults and some kids don't run

Heinleinsmof: They only do that when there is someone around to pick it up for them

Heinleinsmof: When they have to deal with their own messes starting out the gate, there is not so much of that.

Heinleinsmof: Yes. Individuals differ

Heinleinsmof: And part of what we as loving parents can do is give people second chances

OakMan 7111: So why don't you treat your 11 year old nephew as an adult?

Heinleinsmof: Because he's an 11 year old

OakMan 7111: and?

Heinleinsmof: You have to relate to individuals as individuals. So, also, because he's not a category "11 year old."

DenvToday: Getting back to TMIAHM, one thing has always intrigued me--the "conspirators" wanted Loonies to be self-ruling, yet they were shamelessly manipulating them.

Heinleinsmof: I don't see it that way, Denv.

DavidWrightSr: Me neither.

Heinleinsmof: They used advertising techniques to present pertinent information.

Heinleinsmof: And then provided an outlet for sentiments that already existed.

DenvToday: I don't say that's a bad thing--any movement is always initiated by a few people.

Heinleinsmof: All they really did was to channel existing sentiments.

OakMan 7111: Didn't they out and out lie sometimes?

DenvToday: That's true, but the "peepul" always seemed to respond in anticipated ways.

Heinleinsmof: You've got it backwards -- they shaped their presentations to achieve a desired result.

DenvToday: I agree--but that's not inconsistent with what I said.

Heinleinsmof: because the sentiments were already there and just needed an appropriate outlet

Heinleinsmof: They didn't create opinion

OakMan 7111: That last is true

Heinleinsmof: If they had to do that, there could not have been a revolution -- at least not on that time scale.

Heinleinsmof: So from a "management" point of view, what they were doing was shaping the "crucible" so that peoples' goals became clarified.

DenvToday: I agree with their manipulations--somebody had to do it. But mass-manipulation was used as a tool. de la Paz admits as much, and proudly.

DavidWrightSr: Sure they lied sometimes. and sometimes, (quite often actually), they didn't tell all of the truth because it could have destroyed their chances. Like not telling Mannie about their true goal in meeting with the Authority

DavidWrightSr: because HE couldn't lie effectively.

Heinleinsmof: Well, yes -- telling the truth selectively is the very best way o --err, lying.

Heinleinsmof: of, er, lying. I meant

rjjusu has entered the room.

OakMan 7111: hello rij

DavidWrightSr: Hi Randy

ScottW469: hi rjjusu

rjjusu: Greetings and salutations all.

KultsiKN: Hello

Heinleinsmof: If you give people an opportunity to rest in their prejudices, it's very unfortunate that they will take that route 9 times out of 9

ddavitt: I'm back. Hi Randy

Heinleinsmof: Yo

rjjusu: Hi Jane

rjjusu: Hi Bill

Heinleinsmof: I was about to suggest we are at the halfway point, and a break might be appropriate.

DavidWrightSr: It takes something powerful to break you out of your prejudices, (Like reading Heinlein did with me ) :-)

rjjusu: David, could you send me the log to the present time, so I can catch up?

ddavitt: They had to lie; if they had told them the future, the warden would have found out and squashed them. had to keep it secret or in cells until the last possible moment or, as it happened, marie Lyon's death

DavidWrightSr: Sure hang on a minute

ddavitt: Break sounds good

DenvToday: I just thought it was interesting that de la Paz didn't think the peepul "could handle the truth," so to speak. If Adam Selene was exposed as really being Mike, he quite correctly predicted that their revolution would fall apart. Which expresses his (accurate) opinion that most people follow the herd.

DenvToday: Just an observation.

Heinleinsmof: Shall we take a short break and when we come back take up with The American Revolution (1776), the Second American Revolution (Revolt in 2100) and the Lunar Revolution (2076?)

ddavitt: But not on the same time line of course

Heinleinsmof: I've got 3:35; let's come back around 3:42

rjjusu: I also have a somewhat OT request for comment on a statement I saw in a review yesterday, comparing David Gerrold and RAH.

OakMan 7111: Okay, then if we are on break, I'd like to announce that my weight loss continues - I have lost 30 lbs since Jan 5th

Heinleinsmof: /ga

DenvToday: Oak, congrats!!

DenvToday: Impressive!

ScottW469: cool!

OakMan 7111: :-D

ddavitt: Good job!

ddavitt: Wish i had your will power

DenvToday: Which diet are you on?

OakMan 7111: You have to like salad

KultsiKN: Jon, you've lost too much -- your teeth are showing.

OakMan 7111: and more salad

OakMan 7111: did I mention salad?

ddavitt: I like it with dressing..

DenvToday: lol I do! Especially with lots of roquefort dressing slathered on it.

KultsiKN: w. or w/o dressing?

OakMan 7111: I like it with mustard

ddavitt: i have a sad feeling he means without

OakMan 7111: which is very low cal

DenvToday: Honeymoon salad: Lettuce alone without dressing.

ddavitt: Old one!:-)

DenvToday: Yep! lol

ddavitt: Like 'i'm busy making mary"

DenvToday: rofl

ddavitt: They were in Around The World With Auntie mame

OakMan 7111: Well, eating it means that I have to buy new clothes to dress-in

ddavitt: Stuck in my mind

KultsiKN: our EU participation seems a bit thin tonite...

DenvToday: As is Oak.

OakMan 7111: yes and we have all given up eating beef, too

ddavitt: jani popped in on Thursday but it was the middle of the night for her

OakMan 7111: Randy - was it the new Gerold book?

KultsiKN: What we, paleface?

Heinleinsmof: Congrats, Jon

rjjusu: In a review of Bouncing Off The Moon, by David Gerrold, Tasha Robinson made the following comment: "Gerrold's style here once again sharply echoes that of Robert Heinlein's juvenile novels--it's brisk, involving, entertaining, logical, clever, easy to read and absorb, and prone to shunting aside its characters, making them play second fiddle to the author's scientific and speculative agenda."

OakMan 7111: we being me and the EU

rjjusu: Somehow, I think Ms Robinson has missed the boat, because not only do the Novels, like TMIAHM have some great characterizations, so do the juveniles.

rjjusu: Yes

OakMan 7111: Tasha's credentials are?

DavidWrightSr: Sounds like somethin I want to read :-)

KultsiKN: Jane, I could've done that as well -- Good Friday and all.

Heinleinsmof: Hmm-- the "shunting aside its characters" bit is in the mind of the reader, not in the book.

ddavitt: Why not a new Chttorr tho?!

OakMan 7111: I just grabbed the first one - its in PB - Jumping off the planet

ddavitt: True Kultsi

ddavitt: I'll look out for them

rjjusu: her credentials are ??? Good question. It was in the latest issue of SciFi weekly

Heinleinsmof: This kind of bears on that discussion on rec.arts.sf.written, too -- they have some peculiar notions there.

DavidWrightSr: Hey Gerrold would be a good guest author, I think. Anybody have any links to him?

ddavitt: I don't recall Kip and Peewee being shunted anywhere...

rjjusu: And yes, when the heck are we going to see the fifth Chtorr novel? Hopefully in THIS century.

DenvToday: Is he the writer of The Trouble with Tribbles?

DavidWrightSr: except all over the Galaxy and beyond

ddavitt: No but he would be yes. And what about Robert Crais? Did that get anywhere?

rjjusu: Yes, Denv

DenvToday: thanks rjj

Heinleinsmof: This is something reviewers say when they find themselves thinking about the situations as much as the people. It's a matter of conventions.

ddavitt: But they stayed centre stage

OakMan 7111: Orson Scott Card says if JOTP: "like Heinlein, Gerold invents a plausible future, then shows it through the eyes of real people whose personal struggles give urgency and meaning to the large events"

DenvToday: Sounds interesting.

ddavitt: The Chttorr books felt like Heinlein but different. I'd never make a reviewer :-)

Heinleinsmof: IMO Heinlein chose people whose lives are exemplary in some fashion -- so it would not be possible to "shunt aside" the characters without shunting aside the story.

Heinleinsmof: But the reviewer tries to read it on only one level.

ddavitt: They ARE the story

Heinleinsmof: Exactly. Consider Libby in "Misfit." He is an example of what is going on with humanity at large.

DavidWrightSr: Any book that I really like, (like Heinlein's), I can't analyze. I get too absorbed in the story to look at it critically.

Heinleinsmof: So the philosophical content is the story

DavidWrightSr: That's my definition of a good book :-)

rjjusu: The thing is, sometimes a writer can "develop" a character with only a few items of description, because the character taps into well known archtypes, which draw the reader into the story, while allowing the reader to flesh out the character and make them their own. Does the Professor seem like a revolutionary or an academic, and is there any real difference, when one finds a good teacher?

Heinleinsmof: They aren't separate. That's why all the digressions "work" for Heinlein

ddavitt: He actaully is both according to what we are told

ddavitt: He loves learning

OakMan 7111: My impression is that's rare

OakMan 7111: having both in one

Heinleinsmof: Lenin

OakMan 7111: and Trotsky

OakMan 7111: but not Stalin, nor Mao

DenvToday: It's not the intelligence or (forgive me, competence) of Heinlein's characters that make me love them so much--it's the simple given that they will do the right thing when they can. It's the 1950's sensibility I love--that hard work and striving to learn and common sense are not considered unusual.

Heinleinsmof: Ho was, though, wasn't he?

rjjusu: Jani and I had a long discussion about that last Thursday night/Friday morning. A real teacher is always a subversive, because they concentrate on teaching the student how to think, not just be a passive sponge absorbing facts.

Heinleinsmof: That's why school boards have such trouble with teachers.

OakMan 7111: maybe its that there are just a lot of academics that are satisfied with the status quo - even if many of the much smaller number of real revolutionaries are academics

ddavitt: I had some like that; theyre the ones I remember

Heinleinsmof: The social function of a school is quite contrary to getting students to think.

DavidWrightSr: Our next discussion is on teachers, right Jane?

ddavitt: It's to give us parents some peace in the day:-)

ddavitt: Yes, all ready to go with it

ScottW469: :-)

ddavitt: So don't start talking about it now:-)

Heinleinsmof: And the last thing a weary parent needs is a child who is "thinking."

ddavitt: Or asking 'why'

rjjusu: That's because schools are no longer places to learn, they are places to become social acclimated, and any education is secondary.

DavidWrightSr: Shut up kid, watch the boob tube!

ddavitt: yep!

DenvToday: rjj, I've always felt that learning facts is what needs to be done before you can really think. It's like being an actor--you need to learn your lines before you can improvise with the character.

Heinleinsmof: They never really were places of education -- they were always intended to be trade schools to make cogs in the manufacturing system.

OakMan 7111: "being a good boy is not disturbing momma's nap"

ddavitt: Actually Eleanor is in a bookathon at the moment; being sponsored to read 10 hours in 3 weeks. a doddle

Heinleinsmof: "always" meaning since about 1910

ddavitt: Reading to her counts as well ( she's only 5)

ddavitt: Going back to ITGO it was a similar plot wasn't it?

OakMan 7111: My stepson wanted his mom and I to read to him until he was ten - though he was reading alone by 5 as well

Heinleinsmof: I think they are both similar to the American revolution, though we see different aspects.

ddavitt: But their secret weapon not so necessary

rjjusu: Okay, Jane, I'll hold my "professional" professor opinions until the designated time. Of course, you are right Denv - learning facts is an essential part of education, it is the yin to the yang of figuring out what they MEAN and what you DO with them, hopefully tempered by the wisdom displayed by many of the characters we know and love.

ddavitt: The impersonation of Scudder was something Mike did over and over in Moon

ddavitt: I mean, he impersonated the warden, Mannie

ddavitt: Thanks Randy:-)

Heinleinsmof: And he impersonated Adam Selene.

ddavitt: But of course

OakMan 7111: At least he didn't use transmutation

ddavitt: Except he invented him so it's not quite the same

ddavitt: And he didn't like him which is interesting

Heinleinsmof: It was to him!

ddavitt: Mike was still the joke loving computer au fond

OakMan 7111: I always figured that Adam Selen came across like Walter Cronkheit

ddavitt: Mannie weshed on his promise there a bit

ddavitt: welshed

ddavitt: Never completed the humour survey

ddavitt: And that's like Mike; he wanted to get what humour was to become human in SIASL

ddavitt: Thematic echo maybe

Heinleinsmof: And eventually I suppose he took the Athene/Minerva option.

ddavitt: I think that was implied

ddavitt: But we never got to see him:-(

DavidWrightSr: The old 'Pinochio' bit :-)

Heinleinsmof: CAT has the feel of "middle chapters" of a larger story

ddavitt: Yes.

DenvToday: Whenever a story about human cloning is on the news, I always think of Athene and Minerva.

ddavitt: Not laz and Lor?

Heinleinsmof: Bet Mike-human looked a lot like Manny.

DenvToday: Them too. But I think of the ability to grow bodies in tanks...

ddavitt: Anyone seen The Sixth day film?

ddavitt: For an Arnie film it had some interesting questions about the ethics of cloning

ddavitt: And lots of bodies in tanks

Heinleinsmof: It's irritating to me how expert we have become at forgetting our heritage.

KultsiKN: Good question, Jane. Not Laz & Lor, although their conception is closer to today's knowhow.

ddavitt: you make it sound deliberate

Heinleinsmof: The issue of human cloning was discussed in great detail in SF 20 years ago.

OakMan 7111: I remember a book by Jerry Sohl in the '60s - called the Haploids

Heinleinsmof: At a much higher level of sophistication than the news.

ddavitt: the Arnie film made it too easy; can do it in hours, all memeories on a disc, indistinguishable from original

OakMan 7111: it was the first mention of cloning I can remember

ddavitt: And of course, the bad guys never died.

Heinleinsmof: What good has sf been if all the "modeling of the future" is never referenced again?

DavidWrightSr: There seems to be quite a dispute over the actual possibilities of cloning humans. I heard some say that there is just too much else to learn at this point and that most current attempts are failures. Then another lab says that they have tremendous success most of the time.

Heinleinsmof: Different definitions, I'm sure.

OakMan 7111: I must go - someone at the door, if Im not backk...bye

OakMan 7111 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: I meant with animals, not with humans.

Heinleinsmof: Nobody knows for sure how to turn off the telemeric clock, so the first group says "not enough knowledge" but they can get cell reproduction, so "great success."

ddavitt: well the Arnie film was less about cloning new people than replacing originals with exact copies

DenvToday: But think of what will be possible a century from now!

Heinleinsmof: If we survive the next 30 years, the future after that will be unimaginable.

ddavitt: we will survive Bill.

ddavitt: Well, I will anyway. I want to see what happens!

Heinleinsmof: Us -- true, most likely; but not our culture.

DenvToday: Funny you should mention that. I just reread Expanded Universe, and RAH's "world-saving" articles that never were published.

DavidWrightSr: It will be imaginable, just not what we see in our imaginations.

ddavitt: Culture is always changing; unhealthy not to

Heinleinsmof: I'm personally eagerly looking forward to performing a slingshot maneuver at the Singularity.

KultsiKN: Have you got a black hole handy?

DavidWrightSr: I recall seeing, in the 70's, a prediction based on various trend curves, that we would be virtually immortal by the year 2000. Hmm, doesn't feel that way yet.

ddavitt: I just want to see earth from space with my own eyes and step on another planet

Heinleinsmof: Not a Schwartzchild singularity -- the technological singularity.

Heinleinsmof: Such modest ambitions!

ddavitt: Not much to ask...it could have been possible...

Heinleinsmof: You may thank Richard Nixon.

ddavitt: If the curve had continued

DenvToday: lol David. Weren't we supposed to be driving air-cars, warning silvery jump suits and living in 5,000 ft. art-deco towers?

ddavitt: it would have been a certainty for Eleanor and lauren

DenvToday: wearing, that is

DavidWrightSr: And traveling well above the speed-of-light according to the same trend curves.

ddavitt: I liked the way Heinlein looked at ways of making housework easier in his articles and Door. That's an overlooked area

Heinleinsmof: Has anybody been reading Greg Egan's stuff?

ddavitt: Know the name, that's all

DenvToday: One thread that runs through all of RAH's work--the importance of modern plumbing.

DenvToday: I've always wanted to know EXACTLY what the heck is inside one of those 'freshers!

KultsiKN: Oh yes! Just take a look at them UK pipes!

ddavitt: hey!:-)

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of 'Its great to be back'. They had problems with their plumbing when they returned to earth. One of the many 'minor' inconveniences they had to put up with

ddavitt: Pretty much the whole house I think Denv...

DenvToday: lol Jane. Probably so.

Heinleinsmof: It's funny how the housing revolution he anticipated didn't happen. How come?

rjjusu: Government took away the incentive.

ddavitt: Building regs? lack of raw material? space?

rjjusu: Too many regulations and too much social engineering.

DenvToday: rjj, you're right to a great extent. Zoning laws discourage development.

DavidWrightSr: He said that building regs wouldn't hold back people when they really needed it, but apparently it or something else did.

ddavitt: But I don't want to see all the green go

DenvToday: As do the thousands upon thousands of regulations.

Heinleinsmof: We seem to be wandering afield again. How about a re-set

rjjusu: Well, Jane wanted her green, where else but in a_feld?

rjjusu: afield

DenvToday: lol

DavidWrightSr: What were the other two questions, you mentioned in the leadoff Bill? Did we cover them

Heinleinsmof: One of the things that impressed me on the rec.arts.sf thread was the assumptions agreeing with Panshin's idea that Heinlein reached a peak with the juveniles and then declined threeafter.

ddavitt: <g>

DenvToday: That's just plain silly, IMHO.

ddavitt: Well, I like them best but I wouldn't agree with that

ddavitt: They were different is all

ddavitt: ( notice my moon talk there)

ScottW469: well...i have to run and help the wife with dinner...

Heinleinsmof: I disagree violently. Not only do I regard his best work as Stranger and after, reaching a kind of peak in TEFL, I also think after 1980 every single work was as complex and literary as Stranger.

rjjusu: He reached a peak, but it was only a local maxima, not a global one. Often when one reaches a peak, he can finally see there are other mountains ahead.

ddavitt: I'm eating mine as I type

DenvToday: If RAH had written nothing else but TMIAHM and TEFL, that would be enough to have established him as one of the greats.

Heinleinsmof: He was getting better and better with age.

ddavitt: Night Scott

ScottW469: everyone have a great weekend

DenvToday: I absolutely agree.

DenvToday: Bye Scott.

DavidWrightSr: Breaking out of the juveniles gave him the room to write a lot that he couldn't have gotten away with earlier. And some people don't care for 'new' ideas, especially from someone they thought they had categorized.

Heinleinsmof: I think Job, for example, was his most "literary" work

ScottW469 has left the room.

ddavitt: But that would only hold true for those who know Cabell Bill

ddavitt: Most people would miss it. i know i did

rjjusu: Breaking away from the juveniles just meant that he was finally out from under the thumb of miss grundy

Heinleinsmof: I don't think so -- the Twain references are even more pronounced, and those can be widely recognized.

DenvToday: Job should be read by every seminary student. And everybody else who lets a "higher power" mandate his acttions.

ddavitt: Again, not all SF readers know Twain

DavidWrightSr: I personally like the juveniles better too, but then I am not, as I have often said, into 'literary' aspects. I enjoy all of his later stuff, just not as much as I did the earlier ones.

Heinleinsmof: Forget sf readers -- I'm talking world literature. Or American letters, at the very least.

ddavitt: You may be over rating some of the readers and all the reviewers

rjjusu: But, those that understand SF is also literature would recognize those authors as literary figures of merit also.

ddavitt: But litry types don't read SF; viscious circle

Heinleinsmof: Yes -- it's the paradigm problem. It's only sf so there's no point even in looking at the apparatus of literary criticism.

DavidWrightSr: Some litry types do, as evidenced by The Heinlein Journal :-)

ddavitt: That's the problem we come up against all the time; as do all the genres

Heinleinsmof: Thank you -- but it is an uphill battle for recognition.

rjjusu: Yes, most literary types don't have a pair of dimes to rub together so they can buy the good stuff

Heinleinsmof: (Manfully ignoring that!)

DenvToday: There's just something a bit too...definite about RAH's work for most literary types (i.e. leftists). If it isn't obscure or dripping with cultural relativism, it just isn't "evolved."

Heinleinsmof: Ah, but Heinlein does drip with cultural relativism -- the the anthropological sense.

DenvToday: Perhaps I should have said moral relativism.

Heinleinsmof: Ah. I see.

DavidWrightSr: Well, I've been saying that Heinlein is one of the world's great writers of literature for the last 40-50 years. But that is strictly from a gut feeling. I have no expertise to back it up.

rjjusu: I'm not so sure that is the problem as much as the fact that reading Heinlein in depth requires one to re-examine ones assumptions, always a painful thing for someone who "knows" what is right.

DavidWrightSr: I can only compare it with the things that I have been told are great literature and it compares very favorably to me.

DenvToday: But you must admit, no matter the culture (Manny is Latin, de la Paz is Peruvian, I think)--they do tend to think like Americans.

Heinleinsmof: It's certainly true that Heinlein challenges the cultural trend of the 20th century.

rjjusu: There is one standard that I am sure Heinlein's works will meet - they will endure.

Heinleinsmof: I think he anticipated that western liberalism would come to dominate the future.

Heinleinsmof: Which is, come to think of it, what actually came about.

DenvToday: rjj, Amen.

Heinleinsmof: It's true, I think, that his sales are probably as great or as greater now as/than they were during his lifetime -- in the period between books, let's say.

Heinleinsmof: I suspect that he is going to hold popularity during the next 30 years or so.

DavidWrightSr: Are there any groups like alt.fan.heinlein for any others of that period?

ddavitt: That's encouraging

Heinleinsmof: Oh, sure. There are newsgroups for hundreds of writers.

ddavitt: Asimov's one is quality but low posts

Heinleinsmof: The major sf writers all have newsgroups

ddavitt: numerically I mean

rjjusu: I think he anticipated that western liberalism would dominate, but I don't think most people understood/understand what that means. Which is not surprising. If they did they would practice the fine art of prognostication by letting things go to the logical extreme and realize what that implies.

DavidWrightSr: Betcha the ones like Asimov's and Clarke don't generate the type of traffic that AFH does.

ddavitt: No, they don't

ddavitt: Nor do they crop up on rasfw as much

Heinleinsmof: Same is true of all kinds of demographic dimensions. Look up Asimov sales on Ebay versus Heinlein auctions.

Heinleinsmof: I think he's at least as important a writer of English lit as Sinclair Lewis -- with the advantage that he didn't drop off into dotage the way Lewis did.

ddavitt: Why, out of all the boarding school books of the early part of the last century, do three names dominate the market in collectibles?

ddavitt: Quality books are like cream; they flota up and stay there

DavidWrightSr: Which are those Jane?

ddavitt: Oxenham, Brent Dyer and Bruce are big names

DavidWrightSr: Never heard of any of them :-)

rjjusu: Don't forget, the scum also rises to the top of the pond, too.

ddavitt: Joy's New Adventure can go for $800

KultsiKN: Nor me

ddavitt: Not surprising

DenvToday: I'd give a lot for a Heinlein first edition. I wonder if e-Bay ever has them.

ddavitt: More for girls:-)

Heinleinsmof: Sure -- every two or three days something show sup.

Heinleinsmof: Call it once a week.

DenvToday: I'll keep an eye out. Thanks.

ddavitt: Elinor Brent Dyer wrote ober 60 Chalet School books and invented the slang adjective, 'smashing"

rjjusu: Denv, are you a Denver resident?

DenvToday: Yes, I am rjj.

Heinleinsmof: You have to be careful about some of them -- the Putnam's Orphans of the Sky isn't a true first; it's a first American ed.

DenvToday: I'll remember that.

DavidWrightSr: I'd give anything to have a complete set of Heinlein in quality hardback, but I understand that the way contracts have been done, that is very unlikely.

ddavitt: A uniform edition you mean?

DavidWrightSr: Yes

ddavitt: That would be good; my paperbacks are very worn

DenvToday: Wow...that would be fantastic.

DavidWrightSr: Or at the very least, the juveniles

Heinleinsmof: It's not impossible. Easton Press has put out more than a dozen of them.

Heinleinsmof: But I don't like their fake hubbing.

DenvToday: I didn't know that!

DavidWrightSr: hubbing?

Heinleinsmof: They are quite expensive -- they sell for about $75 each on EBay.

ddavitt: btw; slightly OT but I have contributed several Heinlein related items to the Invisible library

DenvToday: Which work had the largest printing?

Heinleinsmof: in the middle ages, books were bound with cords so the spine shows the cords.

DenvToday: First printing, that is.

DavidWrightSr: Oh yeah. Not too expensive was another criteria :-)

rjjusu: I'd (almost) give my firstborn male child for a searchable CD of all the works, so I could cross correlate items when looking for quotes.

ddavitt: Plus lots by other authors. It didn't have any Heinlein links at all which just wasn't good enough:-)

Heinleinsmof: I think they could be done for about $30 each with a subscription. Not too bad.

Heinleinsmof: A CD ROM is much more likely than a uniform edition.

rjjusu: I've already got two or three book copies of every one of the works, but a CD ROM ... that would be research heaven.

DenvToday: A scanner and a rewritable drive, and you could do it.

ddavitt: When the Invisible library website has been updated, I'll post a link to it on afh. It's a great site, with a list of all the imaginary books in authors works. i got lots of new authors to try when I browsed it

Heinleinsmof: I'd love to see one complete with the juvenilia in the UCSC archives and the unreprinted works, too, but that's not likely to happen.

DavidWrightSr: I have been thinking of such a project for several years. Something I would like to do after I retire. The problem would be to keep it from being a cheap way to get illegal copies of RAH's works and still do the job that I would like it to.

DenvToday: It wouldn't be contravening the copywright if you kept it only for yourself.

DenvToday: copyright

rjjusu: I know Denv, I've thought about it, but I'm pretty busy right now, and I too have concerns about proliferation of illegal copies and copyright violations.

Heinleinsmof: There are ways to arrange it -- the most "market efficient" way would be to sell it at cost of reproduction pluys cost of royalty, cutting out all the publisher's associated costs.

Heinleinsmof: I.e., without the huge middleman's markup, the CDs could be cheap enough to make it not worthwhile to make pirate copies.

DavidWrightSr: My thoughts would be that it would be impossible to actually print out an entire work, but have it all in a database whereby individual things could be searched for and listed.

KultsiKN: How much might the royalty part be?

Heinleinsmof: That would be a matter of contract arrangement with Mrs. Heinlein -- impossible to predict.

DenvToday: It might be a project for Baen or Tor.

ddavitt: I have to go now; night everyone, see you nextime!

DavidWrightSr: Night Jane

Heinleinsmof: Have fun.

DenvToday: Byeeeee Jane.

ddavitt has left the room.

rjjusu: see you, Jane.

KultsiKN: Bye Jane

DavidWrightSr: I got it out before she left. Yea!

DenvToday: lol

KultsiKN: She's one fast lass...

rjjusu: Frustrating, isn't it. Someone says goodbye, and then they don't stick around for 10 minutes so they can hear everyone else say goodbye.

Heinleinsmof: But a complete set of Heinlein paperbacks would be about $300 right now -- a $125 CD ROM would not be out of the question; the average kind of royalty for tht kind of thing might be $13, plus $2 for repro -- say $15 or $16 sold direct.

DenvToday: lol Yep rjj

Heinleinsmof: Just back-of-envelope calculations.

DenvToday: Has somebody ever suggested this to Tor?

Heinleinsmof: I don't think that's the kind of thing Tor is interested in doing. I have friends there, and they haven't approached the agent.

DavidWrightSr: I've been meaning for a long time to mention it to Mrs. H., but have never had the nerve :-)

Heinleinsmof: Similarly, it's kind of out of Baen's ambit, too.

DenvToday: Too bad. It would be wonderful.

KultsiKN: Oh. We always use cigarette boxes.

KultsiKN: For calculations

rjjusu: That doesn't sound out of line at all. I paid $100 for a collection if IEEE Microwave theory & techniques journals 1953-1998. Worth every penny and then some.

rjjusu: Search capability is worth money in and of itself, when you are doing research.

Heinleinsmof: There's a set of CD ROMS with the entire Library of Congress on them that sells for about the same, IIRC.

AGplusone has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Welcome David

rjjusu: 'Lo Bill

Heinleinsmof: 'lo David.

rjjusu: Lo David

AGplusone: Hi, all!

DenvToday: Hi David!

KultsiKN: Hi David!

DavidWrightSr: The Entire Library of Congress. That sounds incredible

Heinleinsmof: We're kind of winding down -- talking about an ideal CD Rom project. Incidentally, that's one of the first thing mentioned at the first organizational meeting of the Heinlein Society in San Diego 3 years ago.

DenvToday: Not only that, it goes "Shhhhh" at you.

Heinleinsmof: LOL

rjjusu: I have my doubts about that. The entire National Geogaphic takes about 30 CDs and costs around $100. The LoC? PPoR

rjjusu: :-)

DenvToday: National Georgraphic is graphics heavy, isn't it?

Heinleinsmof: It may not have been $100 -- it may have been $500; I misremember the details -- just something I saw a few years ago.

AGplusone: graphics takes room

KultsiKN: P'raps their titles?

rjjusu: Yes it is, Denv

DavidWrightSr: I bet it's only an index

rjjusu: I would agree with David,

Heinleinsmof: Could have been the catalog, I suppose.

Heinleinsmof: But as I recall,the ad pictured something that looked like a tackle box to hold the whole set.

rjjusu: I doubt if you could get the entire LoC on 100 DVDs. They have a lot of publications.

Heinleinsmof: I wonder if the size of the Library of Congress is doubling at the same rate as the poopulation?

AGplusone: be horrible if it isn't

DavidWrightSr: That's a lot of 'poop'

rjjusu: And I will manfully refrain from comments....

Heinleinsmof: Yes, indeed -- why I didn't correct that typo.

Heinleinsmof: I am on the ranch; it is a subject much on the mind.

Heinleinsmof: To say nothing of the implements...

DavidWrightSr: You are on retreat?

Heinleinsmof: Fleeing.

rjjusu: Well, there are a lot of cattle that read predigested cud - only one thing comes of that...

Heinleinsmof: Actually, this is a scouting operation.

Heinleinsmof: I"m moving to Santa Rosa at the end of the month.

DavidWrightSr: That was the retreat I was thinking of

Heinleinsmof: Yes -- a friend has offered a house at the ranch (let me not say Outbuilding) to do a major writing project.

DavidWrightSr: Is that the book that someone mentioned?

rjjusu: Not to be confused with outhouse....

Heinleinsmof: Depends on which book someone mentioned. The Stranger teaching manual is finished and has been turned in.

rjjusu: When will the Stranger manual be available for purchase?

Heinleinsmof: (Well, we were talking about poop on the ranch...

Heinleinsmof: Jim is talking about a June 1 publication date.

DavidWrightSr: Someone, can't recall who said that you and he were writing a book, but you were doing the most of the work. Thornton? Can't remember

Heinleinsmof: I haven't been to the NitroPress website recently, but he might have an ad up now.

Heinleinsmof: Possible -- Andy was online with us last Thursday.

DavidWrightSr: Wasn't there yet, but Jim told me earlier today to keep an eye on it. Changes were coming soon.

rjjusu: And does anyone have any advance info on the new book that was derived from Owensby's dissertation?

Heinleinsmof: When I couldn't get on for 2 bhours.

AGplusone: I believe he has an ad regarding Owenby

DavidWrightSr: Jim said that Phil's book wouldn't be available until mid-summer most likely.

Heinleinsmof: Owenby rewrote it extensively. It's in press, too.

Heinleinsmof: I suspect they will both be availably by worldcon time.

Heinleinsmof: The Heinlein Cyclopedia will not, however.

DavidWrightSr: He indicated that yours and one other might be available sooner.

rjjusu: Yes, I saw the ad yesterday, when I was at the site. Just wondering if anyone here (hint, hint) had any comments from an advance look.

Heinleinsmof: David Silver has read it.

rjjusu: And ......

Heinleinsmof: SAcademy has read it, but I don't think she will comment.

DavidWrightSr: Speak up O metallic one

KultsiKN: LOL

rjjusu: I'm going to buy it anyway, but another viewpoint is always welcome and useful.

Heinleinsmof: I know Gifford is going to get it listed with Amazon.com, so they will need reader reviews.

DavidWrightSr: I'd be happy to offer a layman's opinion (hint)

rjjusu: I'd be happy to receive a layman's opinion

AGplusone: http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah-po.htm "metallic one" indeed

DenvToday: To be honest, I've really enjoyed the Gifford books so far.

rjjusu: You prefer silvery one?

AGplusone: I think it's worthwhile, and well-done; and I'm looking forward to reading the revision he's done.

AGplusone: I read the PhD thesis and expect the revision to be better

Heinleinsmof: Ah. Yes, there were some inferences that are not warranted. There are a few mistakes, but not that many, considering.

DenvToday: I'm glad to hear that! I spend an enjoyable evening yesterday reading it. too, read the whole thing in one long evening and early morning.

rjjusu: Of course, being the eternal optimist, a half loaf is better than none. If someone starts real research and literary criticism, then others will come along to correct and add to it.

AGplusone: I'm looking forward to the revision in viewpoint, the only parts of Phil Owenby's work I didn't like were the obligatory parts in there to satisfy the peculiar requirements of a committtee

AGplusone: in there .... committee of scholars

rjjusu: Peculiar is certainly the right word, when dealing with PhD committees - spoken by one who's been there.

Heinleinsmof: Yes, exactly -- the book was written as a doctoral dissertation. Phillip says his doctoral committee wouldn't approve the book he wanted to write, so he put that in as the appendix.

AGplusone: too much academic buzz wording time wasting in getting to the points which are really worthwhile

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of the CD project, I would like it to include things like RAH:ARC and Phils book and even, God forbid, that Panshin thing just so people can see how far off he is supposed to be

Heinleinsmof: With the Stranger book, we tried first and foremost to point out what was there - most of it seems to have been invisible to the prior commentators. And we tried to follow up on at least 2 levels deep on the major subjects.

rjjusu: How long of a monograph did this turn out to be, Bill?

AGplusone: [but once you plow through the introduction Owenby had to write to satisfy the committee, it's good as gold

Heinleinsmof: About 43,000 words including a glossary and a long appendix on the character names.

rjjusu: Ahh, the appendix may turn out to be the most valuable item....

Heinleinsmof: No -- it's interesting, but I guarantee the most valuable stuff is in the text.

AGplusone: some of Phil's appendices were worthwhile too ... stuff the committee didn't want evidently

DavidWrightSr: Is Phil teaching now? Where?

Heinleinsmof: I took four or five critical modalities into consideration and spent some time talking about myth and anthropology and comparative religion and the nature of satire. It starts to lay a foundation for getting Heinlein considered as a literary figure.

Heinleinsmof: I think he's with the TVA, isn't he?

AGplusone: Yes

DavidWrightSr: TVA ? Tennessee Valley Authority?

AGplusone: yep

rjjusu: Well, then I'm sure he writes with authority.

Heinleinsmof: Only in the Tennessee Valley

DenvToday: lol

Heinleinsmof: I particularly liked his appendix relating all the different philosophical and political opinions into a complete specturm

DavidWrightSr: What in the world would a Ph.D in literature, specializing in Heinlein, be doing with them. Where does he live by the way. I'm near that area

Heinleinsmof: trum

rjjusu: plus or minus Kentucky windage, since it's so near.

Heinleinsmof: He's not a lit specialist -- he's an adult education specialist.

AGplusone: he did a lot of work to prepare the way toward where I'd like to see writing on Heinlein go

Heinleinsmof: The doctoral dissertation was on Heinlein as an educator of adults.

AGplusone: "From biographical details to exhaustive evaluation of Heinlein's educational efforts and philosphy in both his own voice and the voices of his characters, Owenby builds an amazing portrait of the science fiction author, educator and philosopher who helped shape America's course to the stars."

rjjusu: That's a useful profession, but if we want him to educate the other literary critics, he really needs to be a-dolt education specialist....

Heinleinsmof: urk. We should all be a-dolt (doltless, it's true)

Heinleinsmof: No dolt about it.

AGplusone: Talks a lot about the educational state of mind of America, comparing what Heinlein was doing, with a mindset in adult education that may be, alas, lost

AGplusone: since the 1930s, 1940s, and so ...

rjjusu: Sounds very interesting. I

AGplusone: It is!

rjjusu: 'm looking forward to reading it.

DenvToday: I have a pal who's a dealer in Vegas. He had a-dealt education.

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, I see it is 5:00 and we have reached the end of our announced session.

AGplusone: Archie comic books?

rjjusu: Since I'm now educating pre-adults these days, anything that provides insight into the process is valuable.

DenvToday: Good evening all. Great discusssion, as always.

DavidWrightSr: I was hoping to get that one for this year's birthday, but it looks like it will be out too late.

Heinleinsmof: Fun.

AGplusone: Shows how Heinlein's writings consistently follow that pattern going back to the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s ....

rjjusu: Don't forget Arbor Day!

Heinleinsmof: Move your birthday to later in the year.

AGplusone: self-education

Heinleinsmof: Or declare an unbirthday.

DenvToday: Pearl Arbor Day?

DavidWrightSr: Can't do that. I have trouble enough remembering where it is now.

Heinleinsmof: Oh, well, if you declare an unbirthday you don't have to remember anything.

rjjusu: Then do it on the installment plan, and have some birthday every month.

AGplusone: You lose a year of memory?

Heinleinsmof: That's it -- have 2 hours of birthday every month for a year.

rjjusu: Yep!

AGplusone: Sounds like premature alzheimers

DavidWrightSr: Interesting.

rjjusu: Two hours at the bookstore - what could be better?

DenvToday: Just the birthday cake, ice cream and presents part. That shouldn't take more than 2 hours.

Heinleinsmof: Or you could have 4.8 minutes every single day!

DenvToday: Hmmmmm....it disturbs me that you would know that. lol

AGplusone: enough time to have a bowl of ice cream daily

DavidWrightSr: Maybe I'll just go ahead and get a couple of years subscription to THJ :-)

KultsiKN: no way

Heinleinsmof: Oh, I didn't know that -- I rough-calculated it in my head.

AGplusone: I eat ice cream very fast

DenvToday: Impressive nonetheless.

DavidWrightSr: David Lamb?

rjjusu: having a computer at hand is great, isn't it. Just ask Starman Jones.

Heinleinsmof: Yeah -- well that one apparently weighed several tons

DavidWrightSr: and had to be programmed in 'Binary'.

rjjusu: Nope, that 4 pound one in his head.

DenvToday: lol rjj. You want to keep yelling at them, "Get a 3-buck calculator!"

Heinleinsmof: Oh, yes. That one.

AGplusone: My first computer programming was for one that looked like it weighed several tons ... IBM 1401

Heinleinsmof: Gentles, I must off -- I am mess sergeant today.

DavidWrightSr: Night Bill

SAcademy: Goodnight all.

DenvToday: Night Bill.

rjjusu: Have fun with your mess, Sgt.!

KultsiKN: I'm off. C ya, folks! G'night!

Heinleinsmof: Thanks all for coming.

AGplusone: go cut some wood, Bill ... don't cut your foot

Heinleinsmof: Ciao and chow

SAcademy has left the room.

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

KultsiKN has left the room.

DenvToday: Night everybody! Thanks for putting up with my opinions.

AGplusone: G'nite Ron

DenvToday: Night :-)

DavidWrightSr: If there is nothing else I'm going to close out the log.

rjjusu: Later, all

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: G'nite Dave, Randy

DavidWrightSr: Night David, Randy

AGplusone has left the room.

rjjusu: Goodnight, Gracie

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 8:08 P.M. EDT


Final End Of Discussion Log

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