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Heinlein Readers Discussion Group

03-20-2003 8:00 P.M. EST

Gulf-Friday Universe

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Here Begin The Postings

RAH Reading Group on AIM

The "Gulf" (_Starman Jones_?)-_Friday_ Universe.

Meeting Dates and Times: Thursday, March 20, 2003, from 8 to 11 PM, EST and Saturday, March 22, 2003, from 5 to 8 PM, EST

Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"

Last week the misspelled "Chavinist" thread concerning Heinlein's _Friday_ (1982) quickly resulted in upwards of thirty replies from afh. The discussion ranged a bit farther than simply the story of Marjorie Baldwin exodus from Terra, involving at least three other Heinlein stories: "Gulf" written for Campbell's November and December 1949 issues of "Astounding SF," _Stranger in a Strange Land_ which had its genesis in the same conversation as "Gulf" but finally finished twelve years later for publication in 1961, and the juvenile novel _Starman Jones_ written for the Christmas season 1953 Scribners publication.

So, I thought, why not have a reading group meeting on the subjects mentioned in that thread, and others that might be generated? It's time to read or reread Friday and "Gulf," and perhaps a few other suggested works.

Note: the story "Gulf" can be found in Baen's recently reissued _Assignment in Eternity_ collection by Robert A. Heinlein. Use Amazon's site to find the ISBN if your bookseller is understocked or inept.

Some other thoughts . . . about the Friday universe.

Ginny's "Afterword," post chapter XV, in _Grumbles from the Grave_ notes that in 1978 Heinlein suffered a serious illness: that resulting we know from the congenital obstruction to arterial bloodflow to one side of his brain, the cure for which was detailed in "Spin-Off," Heinlein's testimony of a remarkable operation before Congress related in _Expanded Universe_, that wouldn't have been possible without discoveries first made during the space program. Before the operation, the failed first effort of _The Number of the Beast_ was written and had been deemed not publishable. After recuperation from the operation, Robert went back to his computer and essentially again wrote that unusual and puzzling story, the Heinlein reader's "supreme hacker's easter egg" as David Potter called it, containing throughout and at its ending his tributes to his real friends, his own characters, those of others he enjoyed, and the admired authors on whose shoulders he stood, that was published under that same name in 1980.

_Expanded Universe_, a partly non-fiction compilation of short stories, which was an expansion of _The Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein_ followed. It was generated during a telephone conversation transcribed by editor James Baen and was published in 1980, resulting in about two years of little but answering questions from readers.

Ginny's "Afterword" tells us Robert in 1981, at seventy-four years of age, decided to withdraw from other activities and do little more than simply write.

_Friday_ was the first story that followed. Why? Ginny told me in a conversation last year that she and Robert talked about what he might write when he decided to begin anew in 1981. Robert said he'd always felt he was not finished with the character Hartley "Kettle Baldwin" Baldwin, the Master of superman world savers, from "Gulf." So Heinlein decided to return to the world of that character and what followed the story of "Gulf." _Friday_ resulted. This wasn't the first time Heinlein's writing attentions had returned to that universe [There is an unpublished series of TV scripts, a treatment, and outlines written circa 1963 for "Century XXII" that dealt with the Gulf universe.]; but it was the first time anything that resulted was published.

Why the title? and why is Marjorie Baldwin's nickname "Friday"? Perhaps it is to remind us of one of the first novel length prose fictions in English. There is a full text version at http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/17/31/frameset.html among other places on the Internet.

One good site, containing the famous N.C. Wyeth illustrations, and both the Adventures and "Farther" Adventures [see below], is http://ferncanyonpress.com/pirates/robinson/crusoe.shtml

That romance is considered the most famous of Daniel Defoe's works, today is called _Robinson Crusoe_, written and published in 1719 with the full title: _The Life and strange and surprising Adventures of Robinson Crusoe_. What follows is from the bibiliomania website:

"It is based, in fact, upon the experiences of Alexander Selkirk who had 
run away to sea in 1704 and requested to be left on an uninhabited 
island to be rescued five years later. Defoe himself was in his late 
fifties when he wrote the book, which is often considered to be the 
first English novel. Crusoe ends up on a desert island in the manner of 
Selkirk.With only a few supplies from the ship he builds a house, a boat 
and a new life. His island is not wholly uninhabited, though, and there 
is the exciting but ominous presence of cannibals who Crusoe 
occasionally encounters and saves a native from. The latter becomes his 
servant, Man Friday. The crew of a mutinying ship finally rescue our 
hero, but it is his adventure on the island that interests us. The story 
has remained popular ever since its publication and it spawned two 
sequels: later in 1719 with The Farther Adventures of Robinson Crusoe 
and a third part, The Serious Reflections of Robinson Crusoe , in 1720 
which consisted of moral essays. The first novel, though, is 
particularly notable for its detailed verisimilitude allowing us to 
believe in the situation - something assisted by the uncomplicated 
language used by the author."
I might quibble with calling it a "novel," as we can sometimes use that term today more strictly; but that's a minor point -- the summary is fair; and the information about the two sequels is interesting. Robinson Crusoe is the first story originally written for adults anyone ever gave me to read. My grandmother sent it to me for the Christmas I was five years old. I still have the edition she mailed me.

Can somebody tell me why Heinlein alluded to the story and used the name to label his woman protagonist character?

I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's Candide. For an etext of Candide, unless you read French, you're on your own; however, both Norton and Penguin have produced perfectly affordable English language translations. There are also a lot of study suggestions for Voltaire's classics on the Internet, and you might enjoy a few of them.

Then there's the story "Gulf," _Friday_, _Starman Jones_, and the collection Expanded Universe, particularly some notes on education, but perhaps a few other sections you might skim.

Is that enough reading? <veg>

What do we think about this "Universe" and _Whatever_ is Heinlein up to, returning to his "superman" Baldwin?

Regards and, remember, everyone who can find this newsgroup and figure out how to use the software is invited to participate.

David Silver


"p-br@ne" <goungalon@hotmail.com> posted, in "Friday -- Chauvanist [sic]

Inc., on Sun, Mar 2, 2003, at 4:28 PM:

Hi guys,

Just finished reading Friday &.....what can I say...although there were elements I liked, there were some elements I certainly disliked/absoloutly detested!

In terms of the pros - I thought Heinlein dealt with the overall themes of racism (& a character's insecurity due to this)efficiently The nascent colony system was well thought out. The witty, staccato style of dialogue was extremely entertaining... As far as the cons go - The story was a little slow off the starting blocks... Some of the opinions were misguided, i.e California's decision to award all citizen's with BAs/BSCs regardless of therir merit so that they may recieve pay equal to Graduates!!! Come on RAH - if yo want to up the pay of their current jobs so that it's equal to Grads, fair enough (maybe), but don't give them a piece of paper thats ultimately meaningless & could cause a whole generation of work-place disasters!!! The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but blatantly misogynistic - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE with a bout of foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy & infact that exact line about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping up. It was a little irritating...

But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the slightest!!! I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'. The fact that she felt like THANKING HIM (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes after this altercation & then married him at the end of the book made my skin crawl. It was a pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it was taking place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's intention, then he should have allowed this relationship more time to develop for it to be believable, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit of text he could have chopped out, this wasn't one of his tightest books....

Anyways, what do other peeps think? I'd be especially interested in a female perspective....

Tanstaafl!

p-br@ne


On Sun, Mar 2, at 7:56 PM, Robert James replied to p-br@ne:

Friday has always left me a few steps back from total involvement from the book for the same reasons, as have some of the later books' involvement with incestuous relationships -- I can see the arguments, I just have trouble accepting them the way RAH wants us to.

As for the granting of degrees, I would suggest this is RAH's satire on the meaninglessness of college degrees, and not the other way around. Check out Expanded Universe's ridicule of UC Santa Cruz' programs, if you've never read that.

Robert James


On Mon, Mar 3, at 4:53 AM, David M. Silver replied to p-br@ne:

In article <3e62a1b1$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, "p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,

"Guys?"

[snip]
> The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but blatantly
> misogynistic - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE  with a  bout of
> foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy & infact that exact line
> about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping up. It was a little
> irritating...
>
> But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes
> face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the
> slightest!!! I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry
> I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more
> acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'. The
> fact that she felt like THANKING HIM (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes
> after this altercation & then married him at the end of the book made my
> skin crawl. It was a pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it
> was taking place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's
> intention, then he should have allowed this relationship more time to
> develop for it to be believable, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit
> of text he could have chopped out,  this wasn't one of his tightest
> books....
>
> Anyways, what do other peeps think? I'd be especially interested in a female
> perspective....
>
Here's a "female perspective" for you:

http://members.aol.com/agplusone/THJ1notes.htm#ALMOST>

Read it, and come back with something original to say; and maybe the "peeps" here will have something to talk about, if they've not been microwaved already.

> Tanstaafl!
>
Yeah, Tanstaafl.

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

On Mon, Mar 3, 2003, at 2:15 PM, p-br@ne replied to David Silver:

I'm at a loss - when did an opinion have to be 'original'? Isn't it simply an opinion? When I finish a book should I feel guilty that my take on it is somehow similar to previous readers' views???!!!!

I'm still not sure how to interpret yr criticism.... Is it just that u disagree with what I said? Is it that you perceived my post as an anti-RAH attack? Or is it that question of originality?

Is the irony lost on u that u attack me for being unoriginal, yet yr only real argument is actually supplied by someone else's essay via a shoddy link?

Please ensure that yr reply is slightly more...ahem, measured than the last outburst. I actually brought yr post to the attention of some other RAH fans & they were dismayed that an author who so adroitly discusses issues of social relevance is followed so doggedly by fanboys that haven't picked up the basic human skill of debate... Honestly though, don't be so socially maladjusted, it's embarrassing- just come back with a cogent argument, that's all that's required....


"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:ag.plusone-071B87.04534203032003@news.fu-berlin.de...
> In article <3e62a1b1$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
>  "p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi guys,
>
> "Guys?"
>
> [snip]
> > The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but blatantly
> > misogynistic - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE  with a bout of
> > foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy & infact that exact line
> > about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping up. It was a little
> > irritating...
> >
> > But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes
> > face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the
> > slightest!!! I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry
> > I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more
> > acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'. The
> > fact that she felt like THANKING HIM (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes
> > after this altercation & then married him at the end of the book made my
> > skin crawl. It was a pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it
> > was taking place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's

> > intention, then he should have allowed this relationship more time to
> > develop for it to be believable, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit
> > of text he could have chopped out,  this wasn't one of his tightest
> > books....
> >
> > Anyways, what do other peeps think? I'd be especially interested in a female
> > perspective....
> >
>
> Here's a "female perspective" for you:
>
> http://members.aol.com/agplusone/THJ1notes.htm#ALMOST
>
> Read it, and come back with something original to say; and maybe the
> "peeps" here will have something to talk about, if they've not been
> microwaved already.
>
> > Tanstaafl!
> >
> Yeah, Tanstaafl.

On Mon, Mar 3, 2003, at 4:07 PM, Ogden Johnson, III, replied to p-br@ne's reply:

"p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'm at a loss - when did an opinion have to be 'original'? Isn't it simply
>an opinion? When I finish a book should I feel guilty that my take on it is
>somehow similar to previous readers' views???!!!!
>I'm still not sure how to interpret yr criticism.... Is it just that u
>disagree with what I said? Is it that you perceived my post as an anti-RAH
>attack? Or is it that question of originality?
>Is the irony lost on u that u attack me for being unoriginal, yet yr only
>real argument is actually supplied by someone else's essay via a shoddy

>link?
>Please ensure that yr reply is slightly more...ahem, measured than the last
>outburst. I actually brought yr post to the attention of some other RAH fans
>& they were dismayed that an author who so adroitly discusses issues of 
>social relevance is followed so doggedly by fanboys that haven't picked up
>the basic human skill of debate...
>Honestly though, don't be so socially maladjusted, it's embarrassing- just
>come back with a cogent argument, that's all that's required....
I, too, am at a loss. I didn't respond at all to your post, because I can't believe that you did anything but *skim* the book, at best.

A google groups search will turn up a [what I am sure you will categorize as amazing} goodly number of David's posts in which he has exercised his debate skills and extensive knowledge of Heinlein and Heinlein's works.

As demonstrated in your original post, your knowledge of Heinlein and his works [e.g., thinking that his "if this goes on" satire of contemporary California was actually something he was advocating] is so deficient as to actually prevent David from engaging in "debate", lest he be accused of child abuse. Particularly since so many of your "objections" were answered by Heinlein himself, *within* Friday itself.

I see that I should have responded when I first saw your post. Had I done so, it would have gone something like this:

Reread the book. This time with a copy of your post close to hand. As you read it *this* time, ask yourself "how" and "why" is RAH setting things up so that these situations arise, and these characters do the things that they do, rather than the things you think that they should do.

OJ III


On Mon, Mar 3, 2003, at 4:20 PM, LV Poker Player replied to p-br@ne's reply:
>From: "p-brane"

>I'm at a loss - when did an opinion have to be 'original'? Isn't it simply
>an opinion? When I finish a book should I feel guilty that my take on it is
>somehow similar to previous readers' views???!!!!
>I'm still not sure how to interpret yr criticism.... Is it just that u 
>disagree with what I said? Is it that you perceived my post as an anti-RAH
>attack? Or is it that question of originality?
The only real answer to the above is that it was a David Silver post, and furthermore that DS was probably in a bad mood. I thought about posting my own comment when I saw his, but decided against it, and it looks like you put him in his place with no help from me.

Step up to our virtual bar and have your favorite on me, while ignoring the negative comments that do occasionally show up here, no matter what you post.


On Mon, Mar 3, 2003, at 4:15 PM, Terry L. Smith replied to p-br@ne's reply:

Hello P-Brane,

>I'm at a loss - when did an opinion have to be 'original'? Isn't it simply
>an opinion? When I finish a book should I feel guilty that my take on it is
>somehow similar to previous readers' views???!!!!
>I'm still not sure how to interpret yr criticism.... Is it just that u
>disagree with what I said? Is it that you perceived my post as an anti-RAH
>attack? Or is it that question of originality?
>Is the irony lost on u that u attack me for being unoriginal, yet yr only
>real argument is actually supplied by someone else's essay via a shoddy

>link?
>Please ensure that yr reply is slightly more...ahem, measured than the last
>outburst. I actually brought yr post to the attention of some other RAH fans
>& they were dismayed that an author who so adroitly discusses issues of 
>social relevance is followed so doggedly by fanboys that haven't picked up
>the basic human skill of debate...
>Honestly though, don't be so socially maladjusted, it's embarrassing- just
>come back with a cogent argument, that's all that's required....
>
You give an ad hominem response and your spelling skills are lacking. Your 'nym' could have some other meaning but it's truly difficult to take seriously someone who identifies themself as a "pea brain".

You ask for cogent argument, say you receive none then reply with your own unmeasured outburst. Do you have anything interesting to say?

An opinion need not be original. I would hope, however, that it be expressed in an original manner, perhaps with some nuance or insight.

Please run your reply through a spell checker.

Have a nice day.

Terry/tbay


On Mon, Mar 3, 2003, at 4:30 PM, LV Poker Player replied to Terry L. Smith:
>From: Terry L Smith

>>I'm at a loss - when did an opinion have to be 'original'? Isn't it simply
>>an opinion? When I finish a book should I feel guilty that my take on it is
>>somehow similar to previous readers' views???!!!!
>>I'm still not sure how to interpret yr criticism.... Is it just that u 
>>disagree with what I said? Is it that you perceived my post as an anti-RAH
>>attack? Or is it that question of originality?
>>Is the irony lost on u that u attack me for being unoriginal, yet yr only
>>real argument is actually supplied by someone else's essay via a shoddy
>>link?
>>Please ensure that yr reply is slightly more...ahem, measured than the last
>>outburst. I actually brought yr post to the attention of some other RAH fans
>>& they were dismayed that an author who so adroitly discusses issues of
>>social relevance is followed so doggedly by fanboys that haven't picked up
>>the basic human skill of debate...
>>Honestly though, don't be so socially maladjusted, it's embarrassing- just
>>come back with a cogent argument, that's all that's required....
>>
>You give an ad hominem response and your spelling skills are lacking.
>Your 'nym' could have some other meaning but it's truly difficult to
>take seriously someone who identifies themself as a "pea brain".
>
>You ask for cogent argument, say you receive none then reply with your
>own unmeasured outburst. Do you have anything interesting to say?
>
>An opinion need not be original. I would hope, however, that it be
>expressed in an original manner, perhaps with some nuance or insight.
>
>Please run your reply through a spell checker.
>Have a nice day.
The only spelling discrepancy was using "yr" as an abbreviation for "your." I found it distracting, but it might be an eccentrictiy rather than lack of spelling ability.

Yes, P-brane did rather drastically misinterpret the California situation. Someone else pointed this out, and managed to do so without any ad hominem.

You and David Silver are the ones who give this NG the reputation of being a closed clique. You get occasional help from others too. Chill out and have a drink at the bar instead of perpetuating this reputation.


On Mon, Mar 3, 2003, at 5:45 PM, David Silver replied to p-br@ne's reply:

In article <3e63d414_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, "p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm at a loss - when did an opinion have to be 'original'? Isn't it simply
> an opinion? When I finish a book should I feel guilty that my take on it is
> somehow similar to previous readers' views???!!!!
If you present it as your own: which your first post implied although you really don't specifically so claim even yet, then, yes, as to the specific opinion you purported to offer, you should feel guilty. It's superficially trite and presents a viewpoint reflecting only that your thought is "politically correct" feminism in the worse sense. You should

feel guilty if that truly is how your mind works. If you're here to find

out whether your criticism is valid, then read on; if not, then ignore the rest of this post; and I'll ignore you until you come up with something better and worth time to reply.

> I'm still not sure how to interpret yr criticism.... Is it just that u
> disagree with what I said? Is it that you perceived my post as an anti-RAH
> attack? Or is it that question of originality?
You may or may not choose to forgive me -- it really doesn't matter to me; but read as early in the morning as I read it, a post that posits an "opinion" so tired and trite as yours -- and so often offered as bait by trolls here over the years (you do understand that some have been here for years, don't you?) -- provokes the response that you got from me. Sub-standard, superficial 'opinion' such as what you wrote, if that was 'originally' yours, is so tiresome to me before I've had my breakfast that I have to wonder about your motive in expressing it. Are you certain you simply didn't cull what you don't exactly say you originally wrote to provoke a reply? What you got from me was more than you truly deserved: you expressly asked for a feminine reply -- thereby implying that any opinion I, a male, might personally hold isn't sufficient to satisfy you; and what you got was a reference to a cogent analysis of and a rebuttal to your unoriginal arguments, written years ago, by a noted feminine critic -- who also happens to critique politically correct "feminist" thought such as your post expressed.

What else did you think you wanted: whipped cream with sprinkles and a cherry on top?

It's such an old argument you've posited here that, if you claim you've never read it elsewhere and it is indeed yours originally, I'd have to observe, bluntly, you must not have read very much at all elsewhere about Heinlein.

What you should have gotten from me, if you wanted something other than silence ignoring you, was merely the admonition to go make up the time you wasted first time around: reread the book without your preconceptions -- OJ gave you that one gratis -- instead I gave you what

you expressly said you wanted. Sorry, next time instead of giving you what you ask for I'll do better: I'll ignore you.

> Is the irony lost on u that u attack me for being unoriginal, yet yr only
> real argument is actually supplied by someone else's essay via a shoddy
> link?
Which you've ignored. Does that mean that you cannot comprehend the points that Ms. Mendlesohn makes, or are simply incapable of reply -- you did ask for a 'feminine' viewpoint didn't you? You got one. I can hardly undergo a gender change just to reply to you, can I? What's your other complaint? I don't give you any "respect"? Of course I don't. You've trolled your boat in here and haven't yet merited any. Earn it by

replying cogently to hers. Or troll your boat on out.

I'll adopt her feminine opinions, since I'm obviously incapable of giving you what you too[k] the pains to specify you seek. Is the real reason you cannot reply to her the fact that you're still in shock to find that a female might disagree with what you wrote? Welcome to real world, big boy! Or big girl! Take you pick.

> Please ensure that yr reply is slightly more...ahem, measured than the last
> outburst. I actually brought yr post to the attention of some other RAH fans
> & they were dismayed that an author who so adroitly discusses issues of
> social relevance is followed so doggedly by fanboys that haven't picked up
> the basic human skill of debate...
"fanboys" eh? Fold it so all the hard edges stick upward, closely measure, and then do what Arthur Fonzarelli recommends, or what Captain Marcy tells Richard Ames to do.
> Honestly though, don't be so socially maladjusted, it's embarrassing- just
> come back with a cogent argument, that's all that's required....
I've noted you haven't managed to field one. I sympathize with your embarrassment. Your next point is . . . ?

Go find your free lunch elsewhere. I'm sure you can find another newsgroup where your superficiality will fit right in without comment. Have you ever read about the dopy joe traps in TitS? Or the "critics lounge" in Number? That may be your speed. Enjoy.


On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 1:44 AM, Mac replied to p-br@ne's reply:

Considering the manner of your reply, may one assume that you have not carefully read either FRIDAY or the "essay" to which Mr. Silver referred you as you sought an opinion from a female type human?

Please do take a day or so and re-read the book, and then, please, after you read the essay to which you were referred, kindly return with specific comments rather than what you have posted.

---Mac
***********                 **********
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:15:53 -0000, "p-brane"
<youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote: [snipped]

On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 1:08 AM, Marc replied to LV Poker Player:

LV Poker Player <lvpokerplayer@aol.com> wrote:

>
> You and David Silver are the ones who give this NG the reputation of being a
> closed clique.  You get occasional help from others too.  Chill out and have a
> drink at the bar instead of perpetuating this reputation.
I'm not sure that I agree that this group has that reputation,and whilst

I can't remember any of Mr Smith's posts David Silver's have never struck me as giving any sort of impression of a clique.


On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 4:24 AM, Rusty the bookman replied to p-br@ne:

"p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3e62a1b1$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...

Here you go - I'll play it straight for this...

<Snip the "Pro's" - given their brevity, it doesn't appear that you really wanted to discuss them in depth...>

> As far as the cons go - The story was a little slow off the starting
> blocks...
Perhaps, perhaps not. I found it engaging from the get-go. YMMV
> Some of the opinions were misguided, i.e
> California's decision to award all citizen's with BAs/BSCs regardless of
> therir merit so that they may recieve pay equal to Graduates!!! Come on
> RAH - if yo want to up the pay of their current jobs so that it's equal to
> Grads, fair enough   (maybe), but don't give them a piece of paper thats
> ultimately meaningless & could cause a whole generation of work-place
> disasters!!!
Have you read _Expanded Universe_? RAH included an article on how easy it was to get a Degree out of the California Collegiate system on minimum effort. Elsewhere (SiaSL?) RAH mentions a campaign promise: "We shall press forward along these lines until _everyone_ has an above-average income!" You are criticising RAH for writing a situation that he didn't find desirable? Or is it that you dislike his extention (cast as ridiculous) of the Grammar School "theory" of 'Peer Group Promotion" when applied to the college level? (As noted elsethread: RAH was satirizing!)
> The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but blatantly
> misogynistic
Let me get this straight: You are claiming that she had a "woman hating" attitude towards sex? Then why didn't she beat and abuse the gal she shacked up with? (Or did you misuse a word you didn't understand?)
> - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE  with a  bout of
> foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy & infact that exact line
> about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping up. It was a little
> irritating...
Wow, you mean you not only get to slap a lable on her sexual choices (i.e. "THANKING PEOPLE" (sic)), but you can get irritated that she was consistent about it, too...
>
> But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes
> face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the
> slightest!!!
You've been raped when working as a highly paid, highly trained intelligence courier?
> I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry
> I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more
> acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'.
No one tells shaded lies to try to further a relationship? No one tries to mirror the past onto the present? But if what you are saying here is true, I had better go re-read this book, because I don't remember it being that way. (Any excuse to re-read will do, anyway)
> The
> fact that she felt like THANKING HIM (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes
> after this altercation & then married him at the end of the book made my
> skin crawl.
If your emotional reaction was to the point where you were having physical reactions (or at least the claim to such), then it is an even-money bet that you were not thinking rationally about it.

Try this one on for size: G.I. Jane was deployed to a nasty little combat zone. In the course of her working at her profession, Foxhole Fritz pops out from ambush with his squad. Fritz shoots Jane, Jane's troops drive off/kill Fritz's boys. Jane is med-evac'ed. <Time Warp> Six months after the Accords are signed, a healed-up Jane takes some leave in Europe.

In Rome, who should she meet but Fritz!

After recounting various war stories to each other, they are left with mutual respect for each other's professionalism. Jane likes Fritz's looks & personality, so she proposes marriage. They wed & live happily ever after. Does this one make your skin crawl, too?

> It was a pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it
> was taking place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's
> intention, then he should have allowed this relationship more time to
> develop for it to be believable, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit
> of text he could have chopped out,  this wasn't one of his tightest
> books....
Did it occur to you that Marjorie Baldwin's major motivator was her desire to be part of a family? that is the axis for the whole story!

Just _how_ many different ways did she try to get to her goal?

I found it to be a nicely paced book, without any serious amount of excess verbiage. Quite tight. Not all of it may be apparent to you just yet, as this is your first pass through, but RAH covered quite a lot of ground in this one, but you have to _look_ to see it. All of RAH's books are intended, in part, to stretch the mind.

If you think that his books are full of answers, you got another think comin'.

Regards,

--
Rusty the bookman

On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 6:51 AM, Stephanie Vickers (Merfilly) replied to Rusty the bookman:
>From: "bookman"

>If you think that his books are full of answers, you got another think
>comin'.
>
WHOO HOO! Good defense of a book that took me time to read, and then made me re-read it twice for some of the good stuff!

Stephanie

"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 5:17 AM, LV Poker Player replied to Rusty the bookman:
>From: "bookman"

>> California's decision to award all citizen's with BAs/BSCs regardless of
>> therir merit so that they may recieve pay equal to Graduates!!! Come on
>> RAH - if yo want to up the pay of their current jobs so that it's equal to
>> Grads, fair enough   (maybe), but don't give them a piece of paper thats
>> ultimately meaningless & could cause a whole generation of work-place

>> disasters!!!
>
>Have you read _Expanded Universe_?  RAH included an article
>on how easy it was to get a Degree out of the California Collegiate
>system on minimum effort.  Elsewhere (SiaSL?) RAH mentions
>a campaign promise:  "We shall press forward along these lines
>until _everyone_ has an above-average income!"  You are criticising
>RAH for writing a situation that he didn't find desirable?  Or is it that
>you dislike his extention (cast as ridiculous) of the Grammar School
>"theory" of 'Peer Group Promotion" when applied to the college level?
>(As noted elsethread:  RAH was satirizing!)
As you say later, any excuse for a reread. On rereading the section about the California bachelor's degrees, I think that it could be a very honest mistake to think that this indicated approval of the measure, ESPECIALLY if the person is unfamiliar with Heinlein overall.

After all, Friday does say that she sees nothing wrong with it. It is obvious to me that this is really tongue in cheek approval, but I have read Expanded Universe and the rest of the canon. Would I see it if I came to Friday cold?

Hmmm...I like to think I would, but maybe not. It's too bad that she did not mention this later, in the conversation with Boss about the signs of a collapsing society. Including it there would have been more of a giveaway.

>> I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry
>> I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more
>> acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'.

>
>No one tells shaded lies to try to further a relationship?  No one tries
>to mirror the past onto the present?  But if what you are saying here
>is true, I had better go re-read this book, because I don't remember
>it being that way.  (Any excuse to re-read will do, anyway)
Yes, he did get right. No, she was not lying in any way, unless MAYBE it was to herself as well, and I don't buy that. Pete: "I could claim that I was so deep into it by then that, if I balked at raping you, I would have been killed myself, right then." Friday: "Is that true?" I asked, feeling contempt for him.

I think I am with P-brane here. I think the opposite might be a more likely reaction. Then again, as you point out, I have never been raped while working as a highly trained, highly paid intelligence courier. On the gripping hand, just about ANY reaction is plausible. Out of a population of a few billion, who is to say that NO ONE could POSSIBLY react THAT WAY, no matter what the situation is or what THAT WAY constitutes?


On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 6:16 AM, Howard Berkowitz replied to LV Poker Player:

In article <20030304081733.26926.00000004@mb-mv.aol.com>, lvpokerplayer@aol.com (LV Poker Player) wrote:

>
> I think I am with P-brane here.  I think the opposite might be a more
> likely
> reaction.  Then again, as you point out, I have never been raped while

> working
> as a highly trained, highly paid intelligence courier.  On the gripping > hand,
> just about ANY reaction is plausible.  Out of a population of a few
> billion,
> who is to say that NO ONE could POSSIBLY react THAT WAY, no matter what
> the
> situation is or what THAT WAY constitutes?
Now, it is NOT a precisely comparable situation, and the protagonist certainly did NOT get attracted to her captors. But there are some interesting parallels to the experience of then-MAJ Rhonda Cornum in DS I. Just after the war, she did not bring up the multiple rapes, in response to command request. Subsequently, she's discussed the issue, more or less brushing it off with a comment that worse things could have happened to her as a pow( sorry about my capital p).

To try to come up with the parallel of training, she was a practicing military physician, with both a career military and self-described adrenaline junkie attitude. I recently saw an update on her -- she's O-6, but president of the class at the National War College. At this point, I suspect it's her choice to screw up and NOT eventually wind up with three stars as Army Surgeon General.


On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 4:55 AM, Chris Bohn replied to both Rusty the bookman and p-br@ne:

Good morning,

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, bookman wrote:

> "p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > Some of the opinions were misguided,
> > i.e
> > California's decision to award all citizen's with BAs/BSCs regardless of
> > therir merit so that they may recieve pay equal to Graduates!!! Come on
> > RAH - if yo want to up the pay of their current jobs so that it's equal to
> > Grads, fair enough   (maybe), but don't give them a piece of paper thats
> > ultimately meaningless & could cause a whole generation of work-place
> > disasters!!!
As opposed to the piece of paper I received from the Golden State as evidence I sat in class for twelve years?
> Have you read _Expanded Universe_?  RAH included an article
> on how easy it was to get a Degree out of the California Collegiate
> system on minimum effort.  Elsewhere (SiaSL?) RAH mentions
> a campaign promise:  "We shall press forward along these lines
> until _everyone_ has an above-average income!"
TSBTS, p372 of the June 1988 Ace edition.
> You are criticising
> RAH for writing a situation that he didn't find desirable?  Or is it that
> you dislike his extention (cast as ridiculous) of the Grammar School
> "theory" of 'Peer Group Promotion" when applied to the college level?
> (As noted elsethread:  RAH was satirizing!)
[...]
Take care,

cb


On Tue, Mar 4, 2003, at 6:52 PM, John David Galt replied to p-br@ne:

p-brane wrote:

> The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but blatantly
> misogynistic - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE  with a  bout of
> foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy & infact that exact line
> about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping up. It was a little 
> irritating...
>
> But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes
> face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the
> slightest!!! I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry
> I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more
> acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'. The
> fact that she felt like THANKING HIM (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes
> after this altercation & then married him at the end of the book made my
> skin crawl. It was a pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it
> was taking place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's
> intention, then he should have allowed this relationship more time to
> develop for it to be believable, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit
> of text he could have chopped out,  this wasn't one of his tightest
> books....
Both of these reactions illustrate that Friday, as an AP, was more rational and less ruled by emotion than a human of either sex could have been.

There would be a lot fewer "crimes of passion" if humans in general would learn to be that detached when the situation calls for it.


On Tue, Mar 4, at 9:09 PM, William B. Dennis replied to both "p-br@ne" and John David Galt:

John David Galt wrote:

> p-brane wrote:
>> The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but
>> blatantly misogynistic - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE
>> with a  bout of foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy &
>> infact that exact line about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping
>> up. It was a little irritating...
>>
>> But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes
>> face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the
>> slightest!!! I don't know about anyone else, but I would have
>> thought 'sorry I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of
>> character' wholly more acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was
>> real attracted to you!!!'. The fact that she felt like THANKING HIM
>> (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes after this altercation & then
>> married him at the end of the book made my skin crawl. It was a
>> pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it was taking
>> place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's intention,
>> then he should have allowed this relationship more time to develop
>> for it to be believable, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit
>> of text he could have chopped out,  this wasn't one of his tightest
>> books....
>
> Both of these reactions illustrate that Friday, as an AP, was more
> rational and less ruled by emotion than a human of either sex could
> have been.
I have always looked at the scene where she thanked the rapist as an example of her low self esteem, as in "I'm an AP, so I guess what happens to me isn't important."
On Wed, Mar 5, at 5:49 AM, LV Poker Player responded to p-br@ne and William Dennis:
>From: "William Dennis"

>> Both of these reactions illustrate that Friday, as an AP, was more
>> rational and less ruled by emotion than a human of either sex could
>> have been.
>
>I have always looked at the scene where she thanked the rapist as an
>example of her low self esteem, as in "I'm an AP, so I guess what happens
>to me isn't important."
Yes, I would say this is a very good analysis of Friday's character. Low self esteem and a desire to belong to a family ruled her desires and many of her actions. Boss noticed this. If you look up Ben Franklin's parable of the whistle at http://www.4literature.net/Benjamin_Franklin/Whistle/ you will have a better understanding of his statements to her during that conversation.

Very very competent at her professional life (courier, then intuitive staff analyst), she was close to a basket case when it came to her personal life.


On Wed, Mar 5, at 2:11 AM, William B. Dennis replied to LV Poker Player's

reply to p-br@ne:

marc wrote:

> LV Poker Player <lvpokerplayer@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> You and David Silver are the ones who give this NG the reputation of
>> being a closed clique.  You get occasional help from others too.
>> Chill out and have a drink at the bar instead of perpetuating this
>> reputation.
>
> I'm not sure that I agree that this group has that reputation,and
> whilst I can't remember any of Mr Smith's posts David Silver's have
> never struck me as  giving any sort of impression of a  clique.
Terry Smith, David Silver and I met in secret and discussed this very same topic recently .....
On Wed, Mar 5, at 9:05 PM, David Silver replied to Marc's comment on LV Poker Player's reply to p-br@ne:

In article <1frau6c.h4qc521i2e3uwN%marc@jaceeprint.demon.co.uk>, marc@jaceeprint.demon.co.uk (marc) wrote:

> LV Poker Player <lvpokerplayer@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > You and David Silver are the ones who give this NG the reputation of being a
> > closed clique.  You get occasional help from others too.  Chill out and
> > have a drink at the bar instead of perpetuating this reputation.
>
> I'm not sure that I agree that this group has that reputation,and whilst
> I can't remember any of Mr Smith's posts David Silver's have never
> struck me as  giving any sort of impression of a  clique.
No, sometimes I'm an equal opportunity agency when I'm in a bad mood. Anyone can receive it. Ask them.
On Wed, Mar 5, at 9:05 PM, David M. Silver, replied (a second time, see upthread), to p-br@ne,

In article <3e62a1b1$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, "p-brane" <youngalon@hotmail.com> wrote:

Okay, p-br@ne, I'll give you what you might have gotten had I been in a better mood that morning.

> Hi guys,
>
> Just finished reading Friday &.....what can I say...although there were
> elements I liked, there were some elements I certainly disliked/absoloutly
> detested!
>
> In terms of the pros -  I thought Heinlein dealt with the overall themes of
> racism (& a character's insecurity due to this)efficiently
Presumably, you're referring to discrimination rather than racism -- but you're correct in a sense, the story concerns mainly the discrimination against artificial persons, those created as, bred to become, and raised as slaves, despite being a superior result to the general run of humanity and the result of genetic manipulation. It's not quite racism, although discrete races continue to exist, e.g., Tilly.

You might consider reading this story alongside its prequel, the novella or novelette, "Gulf," written years earlier, in which one major character, Hartley Baldwin, appears. In "Gulf" Baldwin is a leader of a secret society, dedicated to saving mankind, of selected individuals who are taught to fulfill their higher intelligence and abilities by various mind-altering or mind-improvement techniques, and who call themselves "homo novis."

"Gulf" concerns the recruitment of one such individual into the secret society -- a coerced recruitment in which he is given no real choice, but to join or die. He joins, submits himself to a good deal of mental manipulation, and becomes one of the "homo novis." And also saves the world.

A generation of so later, Marjorie Baldwin -- "Friday" -- is mainly the biological child of two of those individuals, Joe, the coerced recruit, and Gail Greene, the hero and heroine of the earlier work, with dribs and drabs of other genetic improvements, including a bit of Baldwin and his wife, themselves, thrown in or so we are told in the story.

The popular notion of "superman" taken for the theme of "Gulf" and differences between those superman and the ordinary homo sapiens they protect, the question whether a 'gulf' would come to exist between the "homo novis" and those they protect and serve, is explored somewhat in "Gulf."

The story Friday continues exploration of that manipulation, mental and biological, and its effects in alienation. The 'secret society' has morphed, under Baldwin, into a mere 'organization,' and its goals are somewhat less clear.

But Friday, the artificial person, has a substantial gulf to bridge.

One part of the gulf is the question of where does she fit within human society, if anywhere? E.g., what's the meaning and purpose of her life?

That's a classic question. Take a look at Voltaire's Candide while you think about the story Friday. I believe Heinlein took the bones of Voltaire's work for his model in Friday. Same question, same plot, same characters; and he reworked them.

> The nascent colony system was well thought out.
Each a possible 'utopia,' perhaps, including the one where the 'red monkeys' are kept, 'until we get around to them.' They are the successors of one branch of the secret society Baldwin and Joe and Gail Greene served. They have chosen to become, they hope and maintain, a separate species from good ol' homo sap, and are even now separating their environment -- their range, from humanity. That will become a fatal choice we are led to believe, because one day when they have nothing else or better to do, the brown monkeys will wipe them out.

You might also take a look at something called 'social Darwinism' for a hint here of Heinlein's thoughts.

Each of the utopiae sketched lack something necessary for them to be an utopia for all, just as Candide's travels found.

> The witty, staccato style of dialogue was extremely entertaining...
>
> As far as the cons go - The story was a little slow off the starting blocks...
That's very likely because the story isn't the common novel form that you are used to reading. Voltaire's Candide, on which I maintain it was based, wasn't a novel. I'll leave how the form differs to another time.
> Some of the opinions were misguided, i.e
> California's decision to award all citizen's with BAs/BSCs regardless of
> therir merit so that they may recieve pay equal to Graduates!!! Come on
> RAH - if yo want to up the pay of their current jobs so that it's equal to
> Grads, fair enough   (maybe), but don't give them a piece of paper thats
> ultimately meaningless & could cause a whole generation of work-place
> disasters!!!
Enough others have pointed out to you that this aspect of the civilization shown was satire -- there are a good many other aspects also satirized: the role of corporations and the corporate world state is one other predominant aspect. Capitalism run amok. And the ultimate irony is: a corporation is, of course, a true "artificial person" at law, in a society that discriminates against what it calls 'artificial persons,' who are, ironically, merely homo sap restated and improved.
> The main character's attitude towards sex was not liberal, but blatantly
> misogynistic - she seemed far too ready to THANK PEOPLE  with a  bout of
> foreplay, rather than just experiment or enjoy & infact that exact line
> about THANKING PEOPLE was constantly popping up. It was a little
> irritating...
I'm not clear on what you mean by 'misogynistic' but if you intend to state Marjorie Baldwin doesn't act much like a womyn, you're correct. Marjorie, in the creche she was placed, was trained as a doxy, as she tells us, so she can hardly avoid being dependent on her sexual partners of either gender, can she? Now take that a step farther, and look at the end. What do you then see?
>
> But nothing came close to Friday's reaction when she finally comes
> face-to-face with one of her rapists. It was not convincing in the
> slightest!!! I don't know about anyone else, but I would have thought 'sorry
> I was deep undercover & couldn't act out of character' wholly more
> acceptable than 'yeah i did it cause I was real attracted to you!!!'. The
> fact that she felt like THANKING HIM (not for the rape, BTW) only minutes
> after this altercation & then married him at the end of the book made my
> skin crawl.
Why? You don't believe Friday really exists do you? This is a mind experiment, and very likely a parody of the romance novels that were filling the shelves when Heinlein was writing Friday -- you know, p-br@ne -- those popular novels with the cover illustrations of eighteenth century ladies with their bodices ripped open, being leered at by their captors. Thousands and thousands are sold and read every day, even today.
> It was a pity, beacuse her reactions to the actual rape as it
> was taking place were very convincing. But if none of this was RAH's
> intention, then he should have allowed this relationship more time to
> develop for it to be believable
But he wasn't writing a Harlequin romance, so why does he have to allow time for "this relationship" to develop for it to be "believable"?
>, 'cause let's be honest, there's a fair bit
> of text he could have chopped out,  this wasn't one of his tightest
> books....
>
He must have put all that twaddle there for some reason. Maybe you haven't figured it out yet -- it after all doesn't achieve the Harlequin romance objective, but there's a reason, believe me, that his stories aren't always the tighest books. Neither Voltaire nor Swift nor many others write 'tight books.' Yet they sell, and still are read. Why is that?
> Anyways, what do other peeps think? I'd be especially interested in a female
> perspective....
Here's where I would have referred you to Mendelsohn's essay, especially since you demand a feminine reaction. A good number of wits have been where you are before you. And twice that many peeps possessing a sort of "female perspective." What do you think about Mendelsohn's position? Defend your position, whatever it is, please.
>
> Tanstaafl!
>
> p-br@ne
>
No, there isn't. You have to bring credit to some tables.
Chris Zakes responded, on Thu, Mar 6, at 2:47 PM:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:04:16 -0800, "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>The popular notion of "superman" taken for the theme of "Gulf" and
>differences between those superman and the ordinary homo sapiens they
>protect, the question whether a 'gulf' would come to exist between the
>"homo novis" and those they protect and serve, is explored somewhat in
>"Gulf."
>
>The story Friday continues exploration of that manipulation, mental and

>biological, and its effects in alienation. The 'secret society' has
>morphed, under Baldwin, into a mere 'organization,' and its goals are
>somewhat less clear.
One quibble: The "supermen" from "Gulf" have colonized their own planet by the time of "Friday."

In Baldwin's will, he offers a hefty subsidy for Friday to migrate to another planet (since he expects Earth to go down the tubes in the near future) but says that the subsidy will *not* apply if she chooses to go to the "superman" planet.

This suggests that Baldwin and his erstwhile bretheren have parted ways, not that the society has "morphed into a mere organization."


On Thu, Mar 6, at 9:04 PM, David Silver replied to Chris Zakes:

In article <ukqf6vs8j1786hvg39tbnae9fim3nhrmpf@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes <moondrgn@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:04:16 -0800, "David M. Silver"
> <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> One quibble: The "supermen" from "Gulf" have colonized their own
> planet by the time of "Friday."
>
> In Baldwin's will, he offers a hefty subsidy for Friday to migrate to
> another planet (since he expects Earth to go down the tubes in the
> near future) but says that the subsidy will *not* apply if she chooses

> to go to the "superman" planet.
Quite true, and the 'red monkeys' I referred to are what remains of them on that new planet. They obviously aren't interested in saving mankind anymore: perhaps some of them never were, merely waiting to split off and leave. Shades of Khan! Ceti Alfa Six, or was it Five.
>
> This suggests that Baldwin and his erstwhile bretheren have parted
> ways, not that the society has "morphed into a mere organization."
>
Agreed. But Baldwin's murky part of that still secret organization yet exists. Baldwin just doesn't state exactly what its purpose is. The "boss" gets jobs is apparently all his employees, or at least Friday, knows; and they go do them.
On Thu, Mar 9, at 9:41 PM, Shane Glassman replied to both Zakes and Silver:

"David M. Silver" wrote:

> In article <ukqf6vs8j1786hvg39tbnae9fim3nhrmpf@4ax.com>,
>  Chris Zakes <moondrgn@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:04:16 -0800, "David M. Silver"
> > <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > One quibble: The "supermen" from "Gulf" have colonized their own
> > planet by the time of "Friday."
> >
> > In Baldwin's will, he offers a hefty subsidy for Friday to migrate to
> > another planet (since he expects Earth to go down the tubes in the
> > near future) but says that the subsidy will *not* apply if she chooses
> > to go to the "superman" planet.
>
> Quite true, and the 'red monkeys' I referred to are what remains of them
> on that new planet. They obviously aren't interested in saving mankind

> anymore: perhaps some of them never were, merely waiting to split off
> and leave. Shades of Khan! Ceti Alfa Six, or was it Five.
> >
> > This suggests that Baldwin and his erstwhile bretheren have parted
> > ways, not that the society has "morphed into a mere organization."
> >
>
> Agreed. But Baldwin's murky part of that still secret organization yet
> exists. Baldwin just doesn't state exactly what its purpose is. The
> "boss" gets jobs is apparently all his employees, or at least Friday,
> knows; and they go do them.
I had always read that part of _Friday_ as Baldwin having become disgusted with his former colleagues/students/whatever; it seemed obvious that they had succumbed to the "power corrupts" formula. That he refuses in his will to subsidize Friday's emigration to that world is "proof" that he wishes her to stay far away from them, lest she become corrupted as well. Further, the fact that he remained on Earth and yet still controls a clandestine organization made up of "normal" humans AND all-but-homo-novis humans is indicative of what his purpose always was -- to save Mankind from itself.

I always found rather telling that, pretty much the minute he discovered he had failed -- through Friday's analysis -- he kicked off. He left behind

what he could to protect those who had served him so loyally, and abandoned ship.

I don't know that I'd agree that Friday is a basket case in terms of personal relationships or any social interaction not directly related to her job; though she doesn't have the best "luck" until Janet/Ian/Georges, I note that when her social relationships fail, those failures don't affect her ability to function. She cries, she shouts "unfair!" (and she's right), she goes out and gets laid. How, exactly, is this different from a "normal" human? (I'm not implying that you're asserting any of this, David; I've purged all but the last few postings in this thread -- sorry about that.) It's been a few years since I've read _Friday_ (no, it's not in a box in the garage -- why do so many people have their books consigned to literary hell?), so perhaps there are things I don't recall. But I always found Friday to be an exceptionally strong character, even (or maybe "especially") when her personal relationships tanked.

As to the rape and her reaction to it -- I remember posting on this subject a couple years ago, in this very group, I think. My assertion then was that one must keep in mind that Friday was not raised as a "normal" human woman would have been. The typical reaction to rape -- anger, horror -- is a learned reaction. Friday was never taught it, and so does not react in the typical fashion. She's aware intellectually of the violation, and why other women react the way they do, but because she's never been taught to react this way at the emotional level... she doesn't. The rape is "simply" another method used by her captors to get her to break -- they seem not to realize that she's been trained both to not be thrown into an emotional abyss by it, and in fact to react in the manner opposite of that expected -- rendering the "technique" useless.

The circumstances that come to pass later in the novel when she meets up again with one of the rapists offends many of us, because Heinlein "obviously doesn't understand how a woman would *really* react." Maybe, maybe not -- but that's irrelevant here; Friday is not a typical woman -- she wouldn't react "normally" in any case. Because she doesn't find the rape emotionally horrifying, she doesn't react to later meeting one of the perpetrators as we would expect. He was doing his job; it was adversarial in regards to Friday, but the technique he employed was no more or less "professional tactics" than the torture or the truth drugs she was subjected to. By the late part of the novel, the rapist (Pete, right?) is no longer in an adversarial relationship -- Friday notes that what he did is considered beneath the pale, but from my interpretation, no more beneath the pale than the torture (neither especially fun afternoons, but to Friday, essentially equivalent). I always read her later conversation with him ("Can you give me any reason why I shouldn't kill you right now?") as someone who knows, intellectually, how any woman *without* her training would have reacted, and this is what generates her question. But it's really an intellectual exercise; she has no intent to kill him unless forced to by *current* circumstances -- the rape (and torture) is part of the past that she has survived and moved on from.

And, lest readers here think I'm emotionally detached myself -- the above is discussing a work of *fiction.* I, like many here I suspect, know a couple of rape victims. If it were within my power, those perpetrators would be dead. Messily, and not quickly.

Shane


On Fri, Mar 7, at 12:16 PM, "Dr. Rufo" replied to Shane Glassman:

shane glaseman wrote:

<major snipping>

>  Further,
> the fact that he remained on Earth and yet still controls a clandestine
> organization made up of "normal" humans AND all-but-homo-novis humans is
> indicative of what his purpose always was -- to save Mankind from itself.

> I always found rather telling that, pretty much the minute he discovered he
> had failed -- through Friday's analysis -- he kicked off. He left behind
> what he could to protect those who had served him so loyally, and abandoned
> ship.
I find this evaluation of Dr. Hartley M. ("Kettle-Belly") Baldwin's character and actions unsettling. You said that his main focus was to "save Mankind from itself." I completely agree. But then you say that in the face of Friday's analysis, he "abandoned ship" suggests that he "chose" to shuffle off this mortal coil. It's made clear in the story that he was in constant pain and that was despite very heavy doses of pain-controlling medications.

It's also feasible -- at least to those who have read the earlier short story "Gulf" that Dr. Baldwin is on the close order of 100 years old! Dr. Baldwin was at least a couple of generations earlier in the "breeding" plan of the New Men. Even the most novo of the homo novis have got to wear out sometime.

"Old" and "fatigued," I think, are clear from the context. Your charge of "abandoning ship" seems an unearned canard. Perhaps, I've overlooked something in the text. Could you supply a citation that led to your conclusion/assumption, please.

You seem to suggest that having become convinced of his eventual failure like Brutus at Philippi, he fell on his sword or the moral equivalent. I think of him as a gallant warrior whose "wounds" finally caused him to leave the field of battle "on his shield."

Thank you, Dr. Rufo


On Fri, Mar 7, Ogden Johnson, III, replied to Shane Glassman and Dr. Rufo:

"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

>shane glaseman wrote:
>
><major snipping>
>>  Further,
>> the fact that he remained on Earth and yet still controls a clandestine
>> organization made up of "normal" humans AND all-but-homo-novis humans is
>> indicative of what his purpose always was -- to save Mankind from itself.
>
>> I always found rather telling that, pretty much the minute he discovered he
>> had failed -- through Friday's analysis -- he kicked off. He left behind
>> what he could to protect those who had served him so loyally, and abandoned
>> ship.
>
>I find this evaluation of Dr. Hartley M. ("Kettle-Belly") Baldwin's
>character and actions unsettling.  You said that his main focus was to
>"save Mankind from itself." I completely agree. But then you say that in
>the face of Friday's analysis, he "abandoned ship" suggests that he
>"chose" to shuffle off this mortal coil.  It's made clear in the story
>that he was in constant pain and that was despite very heavy doses of
>pain-controlling medications.
>
>It's also feasible -- at least to those who have read the earlier short
>story "Gulf" that Dr. Baldwin is on the close order of 100 years old!
>Dr. Baldwin was at least a couple of generations earlier in the
>"breeding" plan of the New Men.  Even the most novo of the homo novis
>have got to wear out sometime.
More than feasible, I was specifically stated in the same conversation between Goldie and Friday in Chapter 23 [p 233 of the Del Ray PB edition, Friday looking somewhat Angelina Jolie-ish in her jump suit on the cover] where Goldie told Friday:
 "You are finding the Master grumpy and sometimes difficult."

 "Correction.  He is always difficult."

 "Mmmm, yes.  But what you may not know is that he is in constant pain."
  She added, "He can no longer take drugs to control it."

 ... "Goldie?  What is wrong with him?"

 "Nothing, really.  I would say that he is in good health ... for his age."

 "How old is he?"

 "I don't know.  From things I have heard, I know that he is
 over a hundred.  How much over I can't guess."
Later in the chapter, during Friday's last conversation with the Boss, she sees him, for the first time not using his canes as he always had before, but in a wheelchair.

No, Dr. Baldwin did not "abandon ship", he just ran out of time, as many of us have to, to finish the preparations and arrangements he intended for his people before his death.

OJ III

[And another no. I don't have Friday memorized. I started rereading it Tuesday - specifically because of the OP's comments that started this thread - and had just left off Wednesday night at this chapter. So the passage was rather fresh in my mind. ;->]


On Fri, Mar 7, at 2:31 AM, David Silver replied to Glassman, Rufo, and Johnson:

In article <s3pg6vo7o1pog1f6dfqlbbq8upkc5bsp36@4ax.com>, Ogden Johnson III <oj3@cpcug.org> wrote:

> "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >shane glaseman wrote:
> >
> ><major snipping>
> >>  Further,
> >> the fact that he remained on Earth and yet still controls a clandestine
> >> organization made up of "normal" humans AND all-but-homo-novis humans is
> >> indicative of what his purpose always was -- to save Mankind from itself.
> >
> >> I always found rather telling that, pretty much the minute he discovered he
> >> had failed -- through Friday's analysis -- he kicked off. He left behind
> >> what he could to protect those who had served him so loyally, and abandoned
> >> ship.
> >
> >I find this evaluation of Dr. Hartley M. ("Kettle-Belly") Baldwin's
> >character and actions unsettling.  You said that his main focus was to
> >"save Mankind from itself." I completely agree. But then you say that in
> >the face of Friday's analysis, he "abandoned ship" suggests that he
> >"chose" to shuffle off this mortal coil.  It's made clear in the story
> >that he was in constant pain and that was despite very heavy doses of

> >pain-controlling medications.
> >
> >It's also feasible -- at least to those who have read the earlier short
> >story "Gulf" that Dr. Baldwin is on the close order of 100 years old!

> >Dr. Baldwin was at least a couple of generations earlier in the
> >"breeding" plan of the New Men.  Even the most novo of the homo novis

> >have got to wear out sometime.
>
> More than feasible, I was specifically stated in the same conversation

> between Goldie and Friday in Chapter 23 [p 233 of the Del Ray PB
> edition, Friday looking somewhat Angelina Jolie-ish in her jump suit
> on the cover] where Goldie told Friday:
>
>  "You are finding the Master grumpy and sometimes difficult."
>
>  "Correction.  He is always difficult."
>
>  "Mmmm, yes.  But what you may not know is that he is in
> constant pain."  She added, "He can no longer take drugs to control
> it."
>
>  ... "Goldie?  What is wrong with him?"
>
>  "Nothing, really.  I would say that he is in good health ...
> for his age."
>
>  "How old is he?"
>
>  "I don't know.  From things I have heard, I know that he is
> over a hundred.  How much over I can't guess."
>
> Later in the chapter, during Friday's last conversation with the Boss,

> she sees him, for the first time not using his canes as he always had
> before, but in a wheelchair.
>
> No, Dr. Baldwin did not "abandon ship", he just ran out of time, as
> many of us have to, to finish the preparations and arrangements he
> intended for his people before his death.
>
> OJ III
> [And another no.  I don't have Friday memorized.  I started rereading
> it Tuesday - specifically because of the OP's comments that started
> this thread - and had just left off Wednesday night at this chapter.
> So the passage was rather fresh in my mind.  ;->]
Actually, I agree more with Shane's evaluation of what Baldwin does; but not why. Baldwin's a very old tired and disappointed man. He was the silly thing we all are warned about, at one time at least -- the idealist, who was going to save mankind. By the time we find him in _Friday_ he's only just what his name means: Bald Man, like the author at the time of writing, who went through a world saving period himself.

I've suggested before that Heinlein modeled this Gulf revisited on Candide: who is the advisor, the mentor of Candide: Pangloss, the one who puts a "gloss" on the world, who has an easy answer, so it seems, for everything. Pangloss constantly leads his pupils into the wrong direction -- read Voltaire!

I read "Gulf" a long time before Heinlein wrote Friday; and it was always one of my favorite stories, perhaps because its adventure appealled to my twelve- or thirteen-year-old mind. But while I've always admired the Baldwin of "Gulf" I've never much liked him -- I didn't like the way he trapped Joe into a one-way mission, nor Gail. I've always felt Heinlein wrote "Gulf" very ironically. "Supermen"? Give me a break,

Heinlein's generation had just finished eradicating some 'supermen' to make the world safe for me! No one in 1948 was particularly well disposed concerning the notion of 'supermen' -- we don't need no stinkin' supermen, look at the death camps they left! So you get Baldwin taking advantage of a pretty good "joe" named Greene, who happens to have been manipulated into a failure -- his own government agency of spies wants to kill him. Baldwin, the exact antithesis of the Christ on the mountain story, takes Joe down into the deep dungeon, and makes sure while he displays the meager benefit of joining "homo novis" that Joe understands that unless he joins, his bones will remain in the dungeon as no doubt many others who have gone that way before -- and chosen not to join. This is no volunteer to save the world. This is a hurt, scared man, striving despirately to survive! A draftee, and we know what Heinlein thought about governments who had to be saved by draftees -- and a slave. Just like his daughter Marjorie, come to think on it.

Baldwin's world saving is accomplished by slaves to his organization of homo novis. What kind of world must that be? And Baldwin's organization goes bonkers eventually, as any organization that believes itself to be Overlords must, and the schismatics take off for the green pastures of their own planet -- where any fool can see they pose as great a threat of developing WMD as any other race led by a madman; and where the brown monkeys will, by and by, take care of them.

Baldwin doesn't have all the answers, and I think he's realized by the time of the story _Friday_ that the only answer he has is for the mankind that's important to him: _his_ only child as well as the only child of his two martyred heroes, Joe and Gail, is to flee earth. And find a garden of her own to tend, like Candide. Leave the world saving to someone else!

Baldwin has given up the grand plan, and finally come to realize that if you can't move and shake all of it, you can move and shake it a little so your sprig of immortality will possibly survive.

. . . gingerly moving off soapbox . . .


On Fri, Mar 7, Rusty the bookman, replied to David Silver:

<Liberal snippage included at no extra charge>

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:ag.plusone-0E9028.02315007032003@news.fu-berlin.de...

> In article <s3pg6vo7o1pog1f6dfqlbbq8upkc5bsp36@4ax.com>,
>  Ogden Johnson III <oj3@cpcug.org> wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > >shane glaseman wrote:
> > >
> > ><major snipping>
> > >>  Further,
> > >> the fact that he remained on Earth and yet still controls a clandestine
> > >> organization made up of "normal" humans AND all-but-homo-novis humans is
> > >> indicative of what his purpose always was -- to save Mankind from itself.
> > >
> > >> I always found rather telling that, pretty much the minute he discovered he
> > >> had failed -- through Friday's analysis -- he kicked off. He left behind
> > >> what he could to protect those who had served him so loyally, and abandoned
> > >> ship.
> > >
> > >I find this evaluation of Dr. Hartley M. ("Kettle-Belly") Baldwin's
> > >character and actions unsettling.  You said that his main focus was to
> > >"save Mankind from itself." I completely agree. But then you say that in
> > >the face of Friday's analysis, he "abandoned ship" suggests that he 
> > >"chose" to shuffle off this mortal coil.  It's made clear in the story
> > >that he was in constant pain and that was despite very heavy doses of
> > >pain-controlling medications.
> > >
> > >It's also feasible -- at least to those who have read the earlier short
> > >story "Gulf" that Dr. Baldwin is on the close order of 100 years old!
> > 
> > More than feasible, I was specifically stated in the same conversation
> > between Goldie and Friday in Chapter 23

> > "How old is he?"
> >
> > "I don't know.  From things I have heard, I know that he is
> > over a hundred.  How much over I can't guess."

> > No, Dr. Baldwin did not "abandon ship", he just ran out of time, as
> > many of us have to, to finish the preparations and arrangements he
> > intended for his people before his death.

> Actually, I agree more with Shane's evaluation of what Baldwin does; but
> not why. Baldwin's a very old tired and disappointed man. He was the
> silly thing we all are warned about, at one time at least -- the
> idealist, who was going to save mankind. By the time we find him in
> _Friday_ he's only just what his name means: Bald Man, like the author
> at the time of writing, who went through a world saving period himself.

> Baldwin has given up the grand plan, and finally come to realize that if
> you can't move and shake all of it, you can move and shake it a little 
> so your sprig of immortality will possibly survive.
I tend to think of it this way: Saving Humanity was Baldwin's last great work, and he knew it. Whether for the sake of Altruism, or as penance for his work with the Homo Novis, it was his Quest, his Masterpiece. The Task which he lived for also served to keep him alive.

When he discovered that the Work coudn't be finished (or not by him), the fire went out, and the "house of his spirit" quickly crumbled...

Regards,

--
Rusty the bookman

On Sat, Mar 8, John David Galt replied to the first reply above noted to

David Silver by Chris Zakes on Thu, Mar 6:

Chris Zakes wrote:

> One quibble: The "supermen" from "Gulf" have colonized their own
> planet by the time of "Friday."
I don't see how anyone can come to this conclusion.

First, Baldwin's organization as seen in "Gulf" is still operating on Earth, pretty much unchanged, until his death. Indeed, if the supermen are as small a fraction of humanity as implied in "Gulf", hardly any of them have left Earth by then.

> In Baldwin's will, he offers a hefty subsidy for Friday to migrate to
> another planet (since he expects Earth to go down the tubes in the
> near future) but says that the subsidy will *not* apply if she chooses
> to go to [a certain planet].
Second, we are not told anything about the planet in question. It seems more logical to me to infer that that planet is one where the "supermen" don't expect to be able to do any good.

Perhaps it is a nasty police state where they could not possibly operate undiscovered (such as one of the domed colonies Sam warns Max about in "Starman Jones" -- am I the only one who notices the commonality of world names between that story and Friday?) That's what I have always assumed.

Or perhaps it is so far away and so unmilitarized that it can't possibly threaten the rest of humanity, and thus doesn't need any "supermen" to keep its leadership from going astray.

> This suggests that Baldwin and his erstwhile bretheren have parted
> ways, not that the society has "morphed into a mere organization."
I can't see either of these explanations as valid either. What we do know is that Baldwin or his successor has decided, as of his death, to shut down the organization on Earth. (Or maybe just some of it, and those being dumped are kept in the dark about its continued existence to protect it against any of them talking, voluntarily or otherwise.) If it did truly shut down, I would infer one of three possible reasons.

a) Baldwin feels that he has brought Earth through its crisis, and Earth no longer needs the level of protection it did then.

b) Baldwin has given up on Earth, knowing that its chaos will only get worse until civilization falls apart. (Both this and (a) can be true if we assume that the colonies have recently become strong enough to withstand the loss of Earth.)

c) Although Baldwin did some long-range planning for the welfare of individuals he cared about such as Friday, he did not pick a successor, either because he was too busy to get around to it, or because he didn't believe any of his colleagues yet had the right set of skills and values to continue the organization's mission.

(I have a high enough faith in Baldwin's judgment of people that I won't seriously consider a fourth possibility: he did choose a successor, but the successor was incompetent or disloyal and didn't follow through.)


On Sat, Mar 8, at 11:17 PM, LVPokerPlayer replied to John David Galt:
>From: John David Galt j

>> One quibble: The "supermen" from "Gulf" have colonized their own
>> planet by the time of "Friday."
>
>I don't see how anyone can come to this conclusion.
Perhaps from the conversation with Gloria Tomasawa after Boss dies?
>First, Baldwin's organization as seen in "Gulf" is still operating on
>Earth, pretty much unchanged, until his death.  Indeed, if the supermen
>are as small a fraction of humanity as implied in "Gulf", hardly any of
>them have left Earth by then.
>
>> In Baldwin's will, he offers a hefty subsidy for Friday to migrate to
>> another planet (since he expects Earth to go down the tubes in the
>> near future) but says that the subsidy will *not* apply if she chooses
>> to go to [a certain planet].
>
>Second, we are not told anything about the planet in question.  It seems
>more logical to me to infer that that planet is one where the "supermen"
>don't expect to be able to do any good.
Yes we are told something. The following is from the conversation:
Ms. Tomasawa:  "Exception:  If you migrate to Olympia, you pay for it yourself.
 Nothing from the trust."

Friday:  "Dr. Baldwin said something about that.  What's so poisonous about
Olympia?  I don't recall a colony world named that?"

Ms. Tomasawa:  "You don't?  No I guess you were too young.  That's where those
self-styled supermen went.  No real point in warning you against it, however,
the oroporation doesn't run ships there."
That's from page 246 of the hardcover.

I am with the rest of the people here. The supermen from Gulf split off from Dr. Baldwin and emigrated to Olympia. I have no doubt that SOME of the Gulf people stayed, and might very well have been in the employ of System Enterprises, but the ones who emigrated did so without the consent or approval of Boss. Maybe System Enterprises is a continuation of the Gulf organization, maybe it continued without an actual break in operations, but it is definitely doing so after a split.

>Perhaps it is a nasty police state where they could not possibly operate
>undiscovered (such as one of the domed colonies Sam warns Max about in
>"Starman Jones" -- am I the only one who notices the commonality of world
>names between that story and Friday?)  That's what I have always assumed.
This seems unlikely. The supermen would have emigrated somewhere where they could develop without having to mess with their inferiors.
>b)  Baldwin has given up on Earth, knowing that its chaos will only
>get worse until civilization falls apart.  (Both this and (a) can be
>true if we assume that the colonies have recently become strong enough
>to withstand the loss of Earth.)
Baldwin states that this is the case at one point, on page 223:
"Yes. Concerining your ex-migration:  I recommend that you not move to the
planet Olympia.  Otherwise, I have no specific advice other than to migrate.
When I was younger, I thought I could change this world.  Now I no longer think
so but for emotional reasons I must keep on fighting a holding action."
Sounds like maybe you should reread Friday. Just who is this John David Galt character, anyway? :)
--
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Monday, March 10, 2003 5:37 PM

On Mon, Mar 10, 2003, at 11:39 AM, Chuck Krin replied to John David Galt, in the "Chauvinist, Inc." thread:

> 
> On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:52:48 -0800, John David Galt
> <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
> 
> >Chris Zakes wrote:
> snip
> >
> >> This suggests that Baldwin and his erstwhile bretheren have parted
> >> ways, not that the society has "morphed into a mere organization."
> >
> >I can't see either of these explanations as valid either.  What we do
> >know is that Baldwin or his successor has decided, as of his death, to
> >shut down the organization on Earth.  (Or maybe just some of it, and
> >those being dumped are kept in the dark about its continued existence
> >to protect it against any of them talking, voluntarily or otherwise.)
> 

> personally, I see this one as the "most probable" answer...cells work
> in this kind of situation, and the less the cells know about each
> other (as long as there is some way of coordinating actions and
> information), the less likely that the whole outfit is liable to be
> rolled up.
So do I; but the cells are more likely to go into hiatus if, as you suggest lower down, the successor who was being groomed was neutralized/died before he/she could take over.

Exactly what is Gloria Tomosawa doing in Luna? I think it was possible, had the books gone on, we might have seen more of her.

> >
> >If it did truly shut down, I would infer one of three possible reasons.
> >
> >a)  Baldwin feels that he has brought Earth through its crisis, and
> >Earth no longer needs the level of protection it did then.
> >
> >b)  Baldwin has given up on Earth, knowing that its chaos will only
> >get worse until civilization falls apart.  (Both this and (a) can be
> >true if we assume that the colonies have recently become strong enough
> >to withstand the loss of Earth.)
> >
> >c)  Although Baldwin did some long-range planning for the welfare of
> >individuals he cared about such as Friday, he did not pick a successor,
> >either because he was too busy to get around to it, or because he
> >didn't believe any of his colleagues yet had the right set of skills
> >and values to continue the organization's mission.
> >
> >(I have a high enough faith in Baldwin's judgment of people that I
> >won't seriously consider a fourth possibility:  he did choose a
> >successor, but the successor was incompetent or disloyal and didn't
> >follow through.)
> 
> There is plausibly a fifth: Dr. Baldwin had chosen and groomed a
> successor, but that successor either died or was otherwise neutralized
> before s/he could takeover.
> 
A sixth is a hiatus in activities, as suggested above. Regrouping while dormant and establishing cells off-planet seems equally a part of useful work during the hiatus.
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_Universe

Date: Monday, March 10, 2003 6:54 PM

David M. Silver wrote:

<snip for brevity and refusing any stiplations>
> Exactly what is Gloria Tomosawa doing in Luna? I think it was possible, 
> had the books gone on, we might have seen more of her.
David, because of your chosen profession, I trust you have a "good" opinion of (at least some of) those who practice law. Miss Tomosawa of Fong, Tomosawa, Rothschild, Fong, and Finnegan, Luna City says:
	"I'm Gloria Tomosawa, senior partner in Fong, Tomosawa, et al., now 
that Grandpa Fong has retired. But that doesn't interfere with my being 
a vice--president of Ceres and South Africa Acceptances; we are also the 
legal department of the bank. And I'm the chief trust officer, too, 
which means that I'm going to have business with you."
Surely, that cluster of activities should "fill her time." And now you suggest that she might have been a "active" participant in Dr. Baldwin's enterprises as well!

I stopped to think for a moment, David. I've always been advised that "if you need something done, ask a 'busy' person -- they will find the time to help." In that spirit, I offer one more citation from "Friday":

	"Gloria Tomosawa had made it easy. I suspect that there are just two 
sorts of lawyers: those who spend their efforts making life easy for 
other people--and parasites."
Maybe your suggestion would have borne fruit. Mrs. Tomosawa certainly demonstrates the faculties of a member of Dr. Baldwin's group.

Dr. Rufo


From: Dee <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Monday, March 10, 2003 7:50 PM

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:ag.plusone-3586EE.14371510032003@news.fu-berlin.de...

> A sixth is a hiatus in activities, as suggested above. Regrouping while
> dormant and establishing cells off-planet seems equally a part of useful
> work during the hiatus.
How about this one? He was grooming Friday, beginning with training and field experience, moving on to the "research" projects he gave her, and the will was the back-up plan, but events got ahead of him, and she was not yet ready. (Especially since her creche rearing had wounded her so.)

--Dee


From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe Date: Monday, March 10, 2003 8:22 PM

In article <v6qcphn3n3i2ad@corp.supernews.com>, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote:

> "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ag.plusone-3586EE.14371510032003@news.fu-berlin.de...
> > A sixth is a hiatus in activities, as suggested above. Regrouping while
> > dormant and establishing cells off-planet seems equally a part of useful
> > work during the hiatus.
> 
>     How about this one?  He was grooming Friday, beginning with training and
> field experience, moving on to the "research" projects he gave her, and the
> will was the back-up plan, but events got ahead of him, and she was not yet
> ready.  (Especially since her creche rearing had wounded her so.)
> 
That might be my first choice, Dee. However, there's this: we learn Baldwin and his wife were childless, except for the genetic contributions they made to the "test tube and knife" conception that became Friday.

"Saving the world" took up too much of the Baldwins' time for them to have children of their own, except (in effect by adoption) in their very old age (does this sound like a couple we think we knew pretty well?); and what childrearing they did do was only after Baldwin got out of prison and managed to track down Marjorie and rescue her from the doxy farm (you don't think it was called the 'Chicken Ranch' or something like that, do you? ;-) -- Marjorie must have been in her late teens at best by then. And it's fairly clear that the off-stage Mrs. "Kettle Belly" Baldwin never saw much of Marjorie before she died, before the story opens.

I think if you look at some of the other novels: Podkayne, for one, you can say Heinlein had definite opinions about the proper time and way to raise children. Perhaps it's arguable he felt that too young wasn't all that great, e.g., the couple in Podkayne who were career space crew, the "Breezes" I think; but I doubt whether he felt that octagenians as parents (except for the long-lived Howards, who seem young forever -- and Friday isn't a Howard, yet) were a good thing either, as the Baldwin's had to be at least in their eighties if the Boss is 'over one hundred' by the time of the story in Friday. And he also despised the 'hands-off' ship them off to a boarding school, or foist them off on unoccupied unmarried relatives to babysit while parents work school of childraising -- as evidenced by how poor Poddy the innocent and Clark the sociopath may have turned out.

He puts Marjorie, at the end of the story, in the group marriage, "tending her own garden," at a young enough age to 'relate' easily, with energy to be actively engaged in raising the family's children, even if biologically none are actually her *own* children.

I suspect Hartley Baldwin would have preferred that Majorie have this stage of enjoyment of life's rewards (what did I say? raising teens isn't exactly always an enjoyable experience, but it's important enough to try to do so if you have children -- rather than regret long afterwards never having tried), unencumbered with the role of Mistress of his organization of super-duper-folk out 'world-saving,' if such a thing really survives, if that's what she eventually chooses to do.

"Optimism" after all, is the sub-title of _Candide_, although arguably it is very ironic chosen and hard to believe Voltaire blindly endorsed such a thing; and perhaps Heinlein didn't wholeheartedly do so either.

Hence, Mrs. Tomosawa ... or someone like her ..., and she's the more likely candidate I see, as likely immediate successor to Kettle Belly in this timeline, where I were writing the World As Myth sequela . . . but I'm not. ;-)

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 4:31 PM

In article <ag.plusone-874CEA.01244710032003@news.fu-berlin.de>, "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

[snip]
> 
> I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's 
> Candide. For an etext of Candide, unless you read French, you're on your 
> own; however, both Norton and Penguin have produced perfectly affordable 
> English language translations. 
I correct myself. Try this for a text on-line:

http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 4:42 PM

In article <rwqba.56$RY3.24737864@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>, "cmaj7dmin7" <reilloc@sbcglobal.spamlessness.net> wrote:

[snip lovely little poem from Bartlesby -- a site to bookmark]
> 
> ************************************
> I recall reading (and have read, re-posted in you follow-ups, above) the
> question about the similarities between Baldwin, Harshaw and the Old Man of
> PM and didn't say anything--except, "duh," to myself.
> 
> Just who is the PM in PM? Who's the secretary and who the servant out on the
> abandoned E.S. Gardner ranch? Who was marooned and who was rescued on
> Friday? And what's it all mean, anyway? Does it have to mean something?
> Everthing is for the best in this best of all possible worlds, right?
> 
"Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our garden."

Enjoy your kids' vacation, LN. Drop in on a post reply if you have the occasion.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: [LONG] Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 8:06 PM

In article <ag.plusone-874CEA.01244710032003@news.fu-berlin.de>, "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

[snip]
> I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's 
> Candide. For an etext of Candide, unless you read French, you're on your 
> own; however, both Norton and Penguin have produced perfectly affordable 
> English language translations. There are also a lot of study suggestions 
> for Voltaire's classics on the Internet, and you might enjoy a few of 
> them. 
I sometimes worry that I get away with arguments too easily. Let me do one thing -- for those willing to read a little bit -- and ask you to answer one broad question.

This question is this: Am I wrong or right about the probable use by Heinlein of the plot of Voltaire's _Candide_ (subtitled: Optimism) in his story Friday?

Here comes the long part: It's not a very long work -- about sixty pages; and it's plainly a satire from beginning to end. Downthread there's an URL to a text version. There's not much subtlety in it. Briefly, here's a sketch of enough of the plot to display its flavor:

Young, handsome Candide, a "foundling," (and the bastard of the Baron's sister, cf. Fielding's Tom Jones), is charitably raised in the household of the Baron of Westphalia, where he is educated along with the Baron's offspring by the Baron's resident tutor, a "philosopher," Pangloss, who teaches them all that we all live in the "best of all possible worlds," and offers the following rationale as lessons demonstrating proof of his philosophy: for obviously the reigning baron is best-suited to rule and, therefore, does; noses are best-suited for spectacles and, therefore, we wear them there; and other like circular twaddle, etc.

One day, the Baron's daughter, Cunegund, observes Pangloss expanding upon his teachings deep in the garden between the legs of a comely maid; for this is indeed the "best of all possible worlds" for Pangloss and, following their example, falls into heat, er, love, herself. She fixes her attentions upon Candide; he begin to reciprocate; but the Baron observes them in preliminary embrace and drives his bastard nephew from the castle. Candide, wandering homeless and destitute, next encounters some fine, new friends who pressgang him into service in the army of the King of Bulgaria [Fielding might have thought of filing a copyright lawsuit against Voltaire for stealing his plot, if copyrights then were enforceable among separate nations]. He deserts, is recaptured, tortured and about to be executed for desertion, when he is pardoned by the King's grace and allowed to return to the ranks. As soon as he recovers, the Bulgarian King's army meets the King of Abares in battle.

In the ensuing carnage, several thousands of unworthy scoundrels on both sides are swept by cannon ball, bullet and bayonet out of this "best of all possible worlds;" and the chaos afterwards gives Candide a chance to desert again. He flees through villages where both sides have shown their military prowess by killing civilians, looting, raping virgins, etc., and encounters finally, once beyond the theatre of war, in Holland some townsfolk whose charity he begs but who refuse him because he fails soon enough to declare he holds the Pope the antichrist. A good samaritan named James, a merchant, privately and quietly pities him, takes him into his own home, feeds, cleans, and offers to teach him a valuable trade.

This single act of kindness and future hope proves to Candide that it is indeed the "best of all possible worlds," as Pangloss had taught him. He rationalizes, as would Pangloss, that had he not been banished from his home he would not have been forced to desert the army and flee to Holland where, had he not been refused food and shelter by some, he would not have been pitied by the kind man who rescued him and offered to teach him a useful trade sufficient to support him in comfort for the rest of his life.

The next day he meets a poxed, noseless beggar, who turns out to be Pangloss himself. Pangloss is now a beggar because, he claims, the Westphalian Baron's castle was destroyed, and all within, including Cunegund, killed during the war waged by the King of Bulgaria (and Pangloss is only incidentally a beggar because he also caught the pox from the comely maid he instructed in the garden). The philosopher explains to Candide that syphillis, his malady, is a necessary ingredient in this "best of all possible worlds" of ours; for were we not to have it, we could not have also the other wonderful Columbus discoveries from the New World, e.g., chocolate or red dye, Voltaire cites in particular.

Charitable Candide immediately gives his teacher all the money James had given him. As Pangloss also needs a cure for the pox, Candide begs his benefactor, James, to pay for the cure. James secures Pangloss a cure, at the loss of merely one eye and one ear. He also makes Pangloss his bookkeeper-accountant.

Two months later, the benefactor takes his two "philosophers" on a business trip to Lisbon. Outside Lisbon, a terrible storm strikes. Attempting to rescue a sailor, James is cast overboard twice and drowned the second time by the panicking sailor. Only the sailor, Candide and Pangloss, who dissuades Candide from attempting to rescue James by demonstrating logically to him that roadstead outside Lisbon had been made for the purpose that James be drowned there, survive. As they enter Lisbon, an earthquake destroys the city. After putting the city partly back to order, the Portuguese conduct an auto-de-fe to ensure infallibly against future earthquakes.

Two Jews who revealed themselves by refusing to eat bacon, a man who committed technical incest by marrying his godmother, and Pangloss, for his philosophy of telling everyone in Lisbon the earthquake was necessary in this best of all possible worlds, and Candide, for agreeing to that, are selected as the main attractions in the auto-de-fe. Preliminary to the slow burning employed in this "best of all possible worlds" for an auto-de-fe, Pangloss is hanged while Candide is flogged. However, on his way to the stake, another earthquake occurs and, in the confusion, Candide is led away, fed, his wounds treated, and hidden by an old woman.

Next day, the woman comes back and, loo and behold, leads him to his life's love, Cunegund, who isn't dead after all, but relates to him she was raped by a soldier, then taken by an officer as his mistress, then sold to a kind Jew in Lisbon, who is now being forced, by the threat of an auto-de-fe on himself, to share her favors with an evil Christian nobleman, the Inquisitor by not-much-coincidence. Her second lover had arranged great seats for her to witness the auto-de-fe where she observed Candide and Pangloss being hanged and tortured and arranged Candide's rescue.

The kind Jew shows up next, so Candide very gently and sweet-temperly kills him. Next in comes the Inquisitor, so Candide kills him too to prevent him from denouncing them both for murder of the Jew. Candide, Cunegund, and the old woman flee.

Okay, that's enough flavor . . . right? It goes on about twenty more short chapters.

There follows a flight from country to country, even to fabled utopia to fabled utopia, through misfortune to worse misfortune, for a "cure" for what afflicts Candide, e.g., Pangloss' philosophy. Voltaire wheels character after character back on and off stage.

Finally, Candide is reunited with Cunegund and -- loo and behold, Pangloss, who isn't dead after all. They all wind up together living on a small farm, with a garden that well supports them, outside Constantinople, generally dissatisfied sometimes with each other, still disputing philosophy, except they are agreed on one necessary thing, for this "best of all possible worlds"

That thing is this:

Neither need you tell me," said Candide, "that we must take care of our 
garden." 

"You are in the right," said Pangloss; "for when man was put into the 
garden of Eden, it was with an intent to dress it; and this proves that 
man was not born to be idle." 

"Work then without disputing," said Martin [some other clown that 
Voltaire wheeled in later]; "it is the only way to render life 
supportable." 
***** [And when Pangloss attempts once again to argue his 'philosophy . . . the rejoinder is:]
"Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our 
garden." 
END

Am I right or wrong in concluding Heinlein was reworking Voltaire's mine of Candide? Please discuss and support whichever side you pick.

Regards,

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: BPRAL22169 <bpral22169@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 9:46 PM

David Silver:

For the sake of clarity, it might not be amiss to say that Friday is parallel to Cunegonde, Candide's much put upon significant other. I think this goes a long way to explaining the rapes.

Bill


From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:52 AM

David M. Silver wrote:

> In article <ag.plusone-874CEA.01244710032003@news.fu-berlin.de>,
>  "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's 
>>Candide. For an etext of Candide, unless you read French, you're on your 
>>own; however, both Norton and Penguin have produced perfectly affordable 
>>English language translations. 
> 
> 
> I correct myself. Try this for a text on-line:
> 
> http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/
> 
David,

I went looking for your link for Candide and I chanced upon a couple of wonderful sites. The first was for a Search Engine called ALEX (run in cooperation with Oxford University) specifically for finding etexts of public domain works. In this it is rather like Project Gutenberg and Project Bartlesby. But there are some interesting "additions." A bit later I found another that indexed several such Search Engines --besides ALEX, there was ALCUIN with hypertextual capabilites andanothe called CARRIE. For the sake of sharing, I offer the URLs below:

A Page of Resources to search for specific works:

http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/books/etexts.html

Alex Catalogue of Electronic Texts at

http://www.infomotions.com/alex/

I hope they bring enjoyment to all.

Pax,

Dr. Rufo


From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 4:05 AM

OK. Let me throw this counterproposal onto the field:

Friday is a grail legend, told from the POV of the grail.

-- 
J-V.

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:10 AM

In article <pan.2003.03.12.11.05.28.138371.24076@thiswelho.com>, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

> OK. Let me throw this counterproposal onto the field:
> 
> Friday is a grail legend, told from the POV of the grail.
'splain that one a bit, please, Jussi.
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:18 AM

In article <3E6EE72D.5080008@mindspring.com>, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> > In article <ag.plusone-874CEA.01244710032003@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> >  "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> >>I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's 
> >>Candide. For an etext of Candide, unless you read French, you're on your 
> >>own; however, both Norton and Penguin have produced perfectly affordable 
> >>English language translations. 
> > 
> > 
> > I correct myself. Try this for a text on-line:
> > 
> > http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/
> > 
> 
> David,
> 	I went looking for your link for Candide and I chanced upon a couple of 
> wonderful sites.  The first was for a Search Engine called ALEX (run in 
> cooperation with Oxford University) specifically for finding etexts of 
> public domain works.  In this it is rather like Project Gutenberg and 
> Project Bartlesby.  But there are some interesting "additions."
> A bit later I found another that indexed several such Search Engines 
> --besides ALEX, there was ALCUIN with hypertextual capabilites andanothe 
> called CARRIE.  For the sake of sharing, I offer the URLs below:
> 
> A Page of Resources to search for specific works: 
> http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/books/etexts.html
> 
> Alex Catalogue of Electronic Texts  at
>   http://www.infomotions.com/alex/
> 
> 
> I hope they bring enjoyment to all.
> 
Thank you, Rufo. I find another English-language Candide translation via those machines: http://elf.chaoscafe.com/voltaire/candide/
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "Stephanie" <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:28 AM

I was contemplating the permutations of the title _Friday_. It got me to thinking about a movie I had seen with Cary Grant, where he manipulates his ex-wife into a position he wishes from her. _His Girl Friday_ was the title, and somehow it hearkens the manipulations that Baldwin takes Friday on.

Stephanie

"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:41 AM

In article <20030312112805.18530.00000184@mb-ci.aol.com>, merfilly27@aol.comspamkill (Stephanie) wrote:

> I was contemplating the permutations of the title _Friday_.  It got me to
> thinking about a movie I had seen with Cary Grant, where he manipulates his
> ex-wife into a position he wishes from her.  _His Girl Friday_ was the title,
> and somehow it hearkens the manipulations that Baldwin takes Friday on.
> 
That's the older Cary Grant-Roz Russell version of _Front Page_ (the one that Walter Mattau and Jack Lemmon did so well). It ends with Roz in charge and Cary working for her, doesn't it? Heh!
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:17 AM

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:10:24 +0200, David M. Silver wrote:

> In article <pan.2003.03.12.11.05.28.138371.24076@thiswelho.com>,

>  Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:
> 
>> OK. Let me throw this counterproposal onto the field:
>> 
>> Friday is a grail legend, told from the POV of the grail.
> 
> 'splain that one a bit, please, Jussi.
Truth is that I was just about to post a long followup, contrasting Friday with _Justine_ by (Alphonse Donatien {accents?} AKA. Marquis de Sade), when suddenly I had a totally unscheduled insight. I posted that with no logical support at all.

Since I posted it, I have checked the book. Peter's real name is "Percival". Also I might note, that Where ever Friday goes, she is always the object of someones search, protection; or both.

The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther was a blade." Is quite definitely a reference to the cup and the sword.

There is more, but mostly fairly tentative impressions. It might even be that _Friday_ is somehow a allegorical history of the developement of the *legend* itself, thus being a sort of a meta-legend, but that is stretching it quite a bit.

Since that idea came to me out of the blue, I will have to ponder it some more...

-- 
J-V.

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:24 AM

BTW. On page 9 of my NEL edition of _Friday_, one of the four names of the tailing agent whom Friday kills; is named "Adolph Belsen". On page 11 the same name is rendered "Alfred Belsen". Is this a typo in my edition only; or do all you guys and girls have it too?

-- 
J-V.

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:57 AM

In article <pan.2003.03.12.19.24.46.619439.24975@thiswelho.com>, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

> BTW. On page 9 of my NEL edition of _Friday_, one of the
> four names of the tailing agent whom Friday kills; is 
> named "Adolph Belsen". On page 11 the same name is 
> rendered "Alfred Belsen". Is this a typo in my 
> edition only; or do all you guys and girls
> have it too?
Interesting. On page 3 of the Holt, Rinehart and Winston first edition hardbound:

Mmm, yes, passport and Diners Club card were both for "Adolf Belsen."

On page 4:

"Adolf Belsen" took the tube to Cairo, then semiballistic to Hong Kong, where he reserved a room at the Penisula, all courtesy of Diners Club.

Are those the quotes you're asking about? Both times we get _Adolf_ in the edition I have. Very interesting resonances in that name.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:15 AM

David Silver:

>Are those the quotes you're asking about? Both times we get _Adolf_ in 
>the edition I have. Very interesting resonances in that name.
From the fact that J-V rendered "scalpel" and "knife" as "blade" I am assuming J-V's version is a translation. Could it be an error that crept in during translation?

Bill


From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:58 AM

In article <pan.2003.03.12.19.17.50.625129.24975@thiswelho.com>, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:10:24 +0200, David M. Silver wrote:
> 
> > In article <pan.2003.03.12.11.05.28.138371.24076@thiswelho.com>,
> >  Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> OK. Let me throw this counterproposal onto the field:
> >> 
> >> Friday is a grail legend, told from the POV of the grail.
> > 
> > 'splain that one a bit, please, Jussi.
> 
> Truth is that I was just about to post a long followup,
> contrasting Friday with _Justine_ by (Alphonse Donatien 
> {accents?} AKA. Marquis de Sade), when suddenly I had
> a totally unscheduled insight. I posted that with no
> logical support at all. 
> 
> Since I posted it, I have checked the book. Peter's
> real name is "Percival". Also I might note, that
> Where ever Friday goes, she is always the object
> of someones search, protection; or both.
> 
> The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther
> was a blade." Is quite definitely a reference to the
> cup and the sword.
> . 
> There is more, but mostly fairly tentative impressions.
> It might even be that _Friday_ is somehow a allegorical
> history of the developement of the *legend* itself, thus
> being a sort of a meta-legend, but that is stretching it
> quite a bit.
> 
> Since that idea came to me out of the blue, I will have 
> to ponder it some more...
Ponder away. It's getting very interesting. :-D
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:13 AM

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

The grail legend is a subtype of the quest story, and in quests, no matter what the object is, what is found is self-knowledge. Friday's life-quest is for an untainted identity.

>The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther
>was a blade." Is quite definitely a reference to the
>cup and the sword.
This is just as likely to refer to the symbolical system reflected in Tarot trumps minor -- transpositions into modern scientific references of longstanding symbols. The cup contains happiness and wonder; the scalpel/knife/sword is the instrument of principled conflict.

Bill


From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:25 AM

David M. Silver wrote:

> In article <pan.2003.03.12.19.17.50.625129.24975@thiswelho.com>,
>  Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

<snip a bit>

>>Since I posted it, I have checked the book. Peter's
>>real name is "Percival". Also I might note, that
>>Where ever Friday goes, she is always the object
>>of someones search, protection; or both.
Contrariwise, in Time Enough for Love, one of the Senior's rejuvenators-later-family-member is named "Galahad." The knight who "never got any" to be blunt about it. In the story, this is NOT descriptive of Galahad and/or his activities in the least.
>>
>>The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther
>>was a blade." Is quite definitely a reference to the
>>cup and the sword.
I don't check you out on this one. In my text is says "Don't make jokes, Boss; you have no talent for it. 'My mother was a test tube; my father was a knife.'"

A "knife" is not a "sword." An "athame" is a "knife" -- perhaps that suggests a wiccan/witchery/hermetic connection to you?

*I* don't know.

Dr. Rufo


From: "BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:53 AM

Dr. Rufo:

>A "knife" is not a "sword." An "athame" is a "knife" -- perhaps that 
>suggests a wiccan/witchery/hermetic connection to you?
A knife is, indeed, a sword and an athame -- which is the name of a knife dedicated to ritual purposes in certain wiccan sects. Anything that can be used to divide will do.

In symbolical philosophy, the fine distinctions you point out are rarely used because the thinking is symbolical rather than analytical.

Bill


From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:18 AM

In article <3E6EE72D.5080008@mindspring.com>,

"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> > In article <ag.plusone-874CEA.01244710032003@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> >  "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> >>I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's 
> >>Candide. For an etext of Candide, unless you read French, you're on your 
> >>own; however, both Norton and Penguin have produced perfectly affordable 
> >>English language translations. 
> > 
> > 
> > I correct myself. Try this for a text on-line:
> > 
> > http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/
> > 
> 
> David,
> 	I went looking for your link for Candide and I chanced upon a couple of 
> wonderful sites.  The first was for a Search Engine called ALEX (run in 
> cooperation with Oxford University) specifically for finding etexts of 
> public domain works.  In this it is rather like Project Gutenberg and 
> Project Bartlesby.  But there are some interesting "additions."
> A bit later I found another that indexed several such Search Engines 
> --besides ALEX, there was ALCUIN with hypertextual capabilites andanothe 
> called CARRIE.  For the sake of sharing, I offer the URLs below:
> 
> A Page of Resources to search for specific works: 
> http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/books/etexts.html
> 
> Alex Catalogue of Electronic Texts  at
>   http://www.infomotions.com/alex/
> 
> 
> I hope they bring enjoyment to all.
> 
Thank you, Rufo. I find another English-language Candide translation via those machines: http://elf.chaoscafe.com/voltaire/candide/
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 4:26 PM

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:15:16 +0200, BPRAL22169 wrote:

> David Silver:
> 
>>Are those the quotes you're asking about? Both times we get _Adolf_ in
>>the edition I have. Very interesting resonances in that name.
> 
> From the fact that J-V rendered "scalpel" and "knife" as "blade" I am
> assuming J-V's version is a translation.  Could it be an error that
> crept in during translation?
> Bill
Sorry, (teach me to go by memory rather than direct eyeballing) the "blade" is indeed "knife" in the NEL (New English Library) edition (ISBN 0-450-05549-3)

And while I am at it, "Adolph" should of course read "Adolf". The line on page 11 however; reads precisely thus:

<open quote>Alfred Belsen<close quote> took the tube to Cairo,
then semiballistic to...

-- J-V.


From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:48 PM

In article <20030312131324.18805.00000195@mb-mh.aol.com>,

bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
> 
> The grail legend is a subtype of the quest story, and in quests, no 
> matter what
> the object is, what is found is self-knowledge.  Friday's life-quest is 
> for an
> untainted identity.
> 
> >The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther
> >was a blade." Is quite definitely a reference to the
> >cup and the sword.
> 
> This is just as likely to refer to the symbolical system reflected in 
> Tarot
> trumps minor -- transpositions into modern scientific references of
> longstanding symbols.  The cup contains happiness and wonder; the
> scalpel/knife/sword is the instrument of principled conflict.
> Bill
> 
And, indeed, Wiccan symbolism of the Earth Goddess receiving the Sun God.
From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:21 PM

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:48:53 +0200, Howard Berkowitz wrote:

> In article <20030312131324.18805.00000195@mb-mh.aol.com>,
> bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:
> 
>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>> 
>> The grail legend is a subtype of the quest story, and in quests, no
>> matter what
>> the object is, what is found is self-knowledge.  Friday's life-quest is
>> for an
>> untainted identity.
>> 
>> >The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther was a blade."
>> >Is quite definitely a reference to the cup and the sword.
>> 
>> This is just as likely to refer to the symbolical system reflected in
>> Tarot
>> trumps minor -- transpositions into modern scientific references of
>> longstanding symbols.  The cup contains happiness and wonder; the
>> scalpel/knife/sword is the instrument of principled conflict. Bill
>> 
>> 
> And, indeed, Wiccan symbolism of the Earth Goddess receiving the Sun
> God.
Also The Cup and The Sword are "concealed" in the ordinary 52 card deck. If you lay the cards out in four tight lines, Ace to 10 left to right, and frex Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades from top to bottom; you can get the Sword and Cup by turning or not turning those cards which have both vertical and horizontal symmetry. It's clearer if you remove 10's and 4's, but it isn't absolutely necessary.
-- 
J-V.

From: Simon Jester <simonjester@freeuk.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:06 PM

David M. Silver wrote:

...
> Why the title? and why is Marjorie Baldwin's nickname "Friday"? Perhaps
> it is to remind us of one of the first novel length prose fictions in
> English.
...
On a completely different tack, it occurred to me that (apropos of Friday's immediate allure to members of either sex) the day of the week is named after the goddess of physical love - Venus in Romance languages, Freya in Teutonic languages.
From: BPRAL22169 <bpral22169@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:05 PM

Simon Jester:

> the day of the week is named
>after the goddess of physical love - Venus in Romance languages, Freya in
>Teutonic languages.
Freya is also Frigg, and that has a sexual double meaning.

I've never been very happy with the Robinson Crusoe interpretation -- nor of the "Friday's child" thing this group did a couple of years ago. Now we've got to investigate how the "Friday" name can be related to Cunegonde.

Bill


From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:29 PM

BPRAL22169 wrote:

> Simon Jester:> the day of the week is named
> 
>>after the goddess of physical love - Venus in Romance languages, Freya in
>>Teutonic languages.
> 
> 
> Freya is also Frigg, and that has a sexual double meaning.
> 
> I've never been very happy with the Robinson Crusoe interpretation -- nor of
> the "Friday's child" thing this group did a couple of years ago.  Now we've got
> to investigate how the "Friday" name can be related to Cunegonde.
> Bill
> 
Do you mean the MOther Goose rhyme?
Monday's child is fair of face,
Tuesday's child is full of grace;
Wednesday's child is full of woe,
Thursday's child has far to go;
Friday's child is loving and giving,
Saturday's child works hard for its living;
But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
Miss Baldwin certainly fits that description.

And certainly Cunegonde spends a lot of time "frigging" while Candide & Pangloss and Martin Mar-all talk.

Are you familiar with the aria that Leonard Bernstein wrote for her in his musical version of Candide? It's called "Glitter and Be Gay" and the chorus is a beautiful series of laughs--------Ha Ha, HahahaHA. Barbara Cook was the "original" Cunegonde on Broadway years and years ago. Magnificent !!

Dr. Rufo


From: BPRAL22169 <bpral22169@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:49 PM

Dr. Rufo:

Re Bernstein's _Candide_ I'm afraid the overture is the only thing from that I've ever heard. It is certainly effervescent enough!

Bill


From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:32 PM

BPRAL22169 wrote:

> Dr. Rufo:
>
> Re Bernstein's _Candide_  I'm afraid the overture is the only thing from that
> I've ever heard.  It is certainly effervescent enough!
> Bill
>
The portion of the Overture that Dick Cavett used as his theme music was basically Cunegonde's aria. In the overture it is the "third" section of music. The Opening Statement is Pangloss' invitation of Questions followed by the Dissentiing Duet of Candide and Cunegonde and then Cunegonde's aria.

Rufe


From: jeanette <wolfj@webtv.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:23 AM

I've used the "I Love Marriage--So Do I" song from LB's CANDIDE as a base for discussion of values in parenting classes.

Jeanette


From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:57 AM

In article <22923-3E7031D5-168@storefull-2111.public.lawson.webtv.net>,

wolfj@webtv.net (jeanette) wrote:

> I've used the "I Love Marriage--So Do I" song from LB's CANDIDE as a
> base for discussion of values in parenting classes.
>
> Jeanette
>
A Guide to Leonard Bernstein's _Candide_ may be found here:

It also contains an extensive song list, here:

http://www.geocities.com/bernsteincandide/songs.html

including, presumably, the song you're referring to, Jeanette; but which one is it?

It contains, additionally, yet another translation of Voltaire's _Candide_ here:

http://www.geocities.com/bernsteincandide/novel.html

[Interesting notes the website author creates. There were several versions of the work.]

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:44 PM

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:05:02 +0200, BPRAL22169 wrote:

> Simon Jester:> the day of the week is named
>>after the goddess of physical love - Venus in Romance languages, Freya
>>in Teutonic languages.
>
> Freya is also Frigg, and that has a sexual double meaning.
>
> I've never been very happy with the Robinson Crusoe interpretation --
> nor of the "Friday's child" thing this group did a couple of years ago.
> Now we've got to investigate how the "Friday" name can be related to
> Cunegonde. Bill
Friday is also the sixth day of the week. Six is "The lovers" in tarot.
--
J-V.

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 1:28 PM

In article <5NKba.202$ON6.121940119@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,

"cmaj7dmin7" <reilloc@sbcglobal.spamlessness.net> wrote:

> "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ag.plusone-DC010E.17065711032003@news.fu-berlin.de...
> > Am I right or wrong in concluding Heinlein was reworking Voltaire's mine
> > of Candide? Please discuss and support whichever side you pick.
>
> You're dead, flat wrong, shyster boy; however, here's an actual revisitation
> to that source material and which qualifies as classic literature:
>
> The stars won't come out if they know that you're about
> Cause they couldn't match the glow of your eyes
> And, oh, who am I ? Just an ordinary guy
> Tryin hard to win me first prize
>
> Oh my Candida
[snip rest of great little song -- I wonder if the lyricist deliberately
played on the name.]
> Apparently, from time to time, listeners mis-hear the "we could make it
> together" line as "wake up naked together." See, http://tinyurl.com/7ce7 .
>
'scuse me a minute, LN, I gotta kiss dis guy. You wouldn't happen to know the actual lyrics to "Louie, Louie" would you?
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: Simon Jester <simonjester@freeuk.com>

Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:40 PM

David M. Silver wrote:

...
> 'scuse me a minute, LN, I gotta kiss dis guy. You wouldn't happen to
> know the actual lyrics to "Louie, Louie" would you?
Surely a Starman Jones reference?
From: "jeanette" <wolfj@webtv.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 7:20 AM

I couldn't find the song on the site. It was in a production that was on PBS many years ago (that in my opinion needed to be seen on stage--TV cameras were too intimate and makeup, etc were so overdone it was distracting). I think I may have found the words in a copy of a Hellman script also.

Basically Candide and Conegunde are singing a duet about how much they agree and how much they love marriage. They are ignoring that each time one mentions something they think is wonderful, the other says the opposite.

I don't remember if the song was in the only production I have seen live. It was a decent community theater production based in a post-apocalyptic world. At the end a missile grew out of the garden.

Jeanette


From: "Stephanie" <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 7:52 AM

>>  Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

>>>The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther
>>>was a blade." Is quite definitely a reference to the
>>>cup and the sword.

>From: "Dr. Rufo" baybus@mindspring.com

>	I don't check you out on this one.  In my text is says "Don't make
>jokes, Boss; you have no talent for it. 'My mother was a test tube; my
>father was a knife.'"
>
>A "knife" is not a "sword." An "athame" is a "knife" -- perhaps that
>suggests a wiccan/witchery/hermetic connection to you?
>
I can follow J-V on this one. By Tarotic influence, any container is a cup. Any cutting instrument belongs to the swords. I'll be keeping his interpretation open once I put aside God Emperor of Dune to read Friday.

Stephanie

"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:57 AM

In article <22926-3E70A1AD-32@storefull-2111.public.lawson.webtv.net>,

wolfj@webtv.net (jeanette) wrote:

> I couldn't find the song on the site.  It was in a production that was
> on PBS many years ago (that in my opinion needed to be seen on stage--TV
> cameras were too intimate and makeup, etc were so overdone it was
> distracting).  I think I may have found the words in a copy of a Hellman
> script also.
>
Isn't it fascinating the number of "names" who had something or the other to do with various 'books' for productions of Lennie's Candide? Lillian Hellman made the original suggestion to LB to use Candide as a operetta, in the 1950s during the heyday of HUAC, Dorothy Parker contributed some lyrics, etc., and then on . . . and on.
> Basically Candide and Conegunde are singing a duet about how much they
> agree and how much they love marriage.  They are ignoring that each time
> one mentions something they think is wonderful, the other says the
> opposite.
>
Okay, if I can follow that description, then I can put it in where I think it might fall in what the 'comic' thought might be. Thanks, Jeanette.
> I don't remember if the song was in the only production I have seen
> live.  It was a decent community theater production based in a
> post-apocalyptic world.  At the end a missile grew out of the garden.
>

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "Hairy Antelope aka Gnu" <o66cdd102@sneakemail.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 10:33 AM

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:24:49 +0200, you , Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>, wrote:

>BTW. On page 9 of my NEL edition of _Friday_, one of the
>four names of the tailing agent whom Friday kills; is
>named "Adolph Belsen". On page 11 the same name is
>rendered "Alfred Belsen". Is this a typo in my
>edition only; or do all you guys and girls
>have it too?
I have it too - but then it's also an NEL print - an April 1983 paperback reprint of a March 1983 paperback print, following on after a 1982 hardcover print - (must have been good sales those years!!!)

Be interesting to see what printing yours comes from ..

--
]-  1260 ft-lb/the weight of the problem = the length of the solution.     
]-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To reply by e-mail, insert the phrase "I'm a Gnu" in the subject line
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:08 PM

jeanette wrote:

> I couldn't find the song on the site.  It was in a production that was
> on PBS many years ago (that in my opinion needed to be seen on stage--TV
> cameras were too intimate and makeup, etc were so overdone it was
> distracting).  I think I may have found the words in a copy of a Hellman
> script also.
>
> Basically Candide and Conegunde are singing a duet about how much they
> agree and how much they love marriage.  They are ignoring that each time
> one mentions something they think is wonderful, the other says the
> opposite.
>
> I don't remember if the song was in the only production I have seen
> live.  It was a decent community theater production based in a
> post-apocalyptic world.  At the end a missile grew out of the garden.
>
> Jeanette
>
The name of the Duet to which you refer is "Oh, Happy We." I've been doing a Search for the complete lyrics and I've come up dry. I offer the following from memory -- it's only the beginning of the song:
Oh, Happy We

He: Soon, when we feel we can afford it,
	Well buy a modest little farm

She:Well buy a yacht and live abord it,
	Rolling in luxury and stylish charm.

He:	Cows and chickens,

She:Social whirl

He: Peas and carrots,

She:Ropes of pearls.

Both:Oh, happy pair,
	Oh,  happy we,
	Its very rare
	How we agree.

Dr. Rufo


From: "William Hughes" <cvproj@texas.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:13 PM

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:48:53 -0500, in alt.fan.heinlein Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:

> And, indeed, Wiccan symbolism of the Earth Goddess receiving the Sun God.

"There is only one god!"

"He is the Sun God!"

"Ra!"

"Ra!"

"Ra!"

sorry...

rb


From: "Ogden Johnson III" <oj3@cpcug.org>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:51 PM

William Hughes <cvproj@texas.net> wrote:

>Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:

>> And, indeed, Wiccan symbolism of the Earth Goddess receiving the Sun God.

>"There is only one god!"
>"He is the Sun God!"
>"Ra!"
>"Ra!"
>"Ra!"
>
>sorry...
Which immediately brings to mind, if one's mind veers that way, one of the most unique jazz group/genre/movement that ever existed; Sun Ra and His Arkestra. Alas, Sun Ra passed to the other side several years ago. [Per google below b. 1910-1916, maybe 1914, d. 1993]

OJ III

[Who *knows* there's no such thing as most unique - unless you've seen Sun Ra, et al, live, as I have. At the first - and last - Kool Jazz Festival in Washington, DC.] [Google {on Sun Ra} again: http://www.eyeneer.com/Jazz/Sunra/ + lots of others]


From: "Howard Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:16 PM

In article <13427vsd5cscqkqtedlbna8dddivnov5a5@4ax.com>,

cvproj@texas.net wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:48:53 -0500, in alt.fan.heinlein Howard Berkowitz
> <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>
> > And, indeed, Wiccan symbolism of the Earth Goddess receiving the Sun
> > God.
>
> "There is only one god!"
> "He is the Sun God!"
> "Ra!"
> "Ra!"
> "Ra!"
>
>
> sorry...
>
> rb
>
Pagan deities can't have cheerleaders?

Although the classic sort of cheer "give me a <letter>" probably wouldn't work at the Quetzlcoatl Theological Seminary.


From: Pete LaGrange <oldman1961@post.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:19 PM

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:09:10 -0800, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Finally!!  Here are the lyrics I was looking for. Please be aware that
>Candide and Cunegonde are singing this duet to each other and are
>complimenting themselves on how well they agree on their idea(s) of
>marriage. Without the music you can only get a glimpse of the wonderful
>sarcasm and irony in this piece. 'Nuff said. Here 'tis:
>
>"Oh, Happy We"
>
>CANDIDE
>Soon, when we feel we can afford it,
>We'll build a modest little farm.
>CUNEGONDE
>We'll buy a yacht and live aboard it,
>Rolling in luxury and stylish charm.
>CANDIDE
>Cows and chickens.
>CUNEGONDE
>Social whirls.
>CANDIDE
>Peas and cabbage.
>GUNEGONDE
>Ropes of pearls.
>CANDIDE
>Soon there'll be little ones beside us;
>We'll have a sweet Westphalian home.
>CUNEGONDE
>Somehow we'll grow as rich as Midas;
>We'll live in Paris when we're not in Rome.
>
>CANDIDE
>Smiling babies.
>CUNEGONDE
>Marble halls.
>CANDIDE
>Sunday picnics.
>CUNEGONDE
>Costume balls.
>Oh, won't my robes of silk and satin
>Be chic! I'll have all that I desire.
>CANDIDE
>Pangloss will tutor us in Latin
>And Greek, while we sit before the fire.
>CUNEGONDE
>Glowing rubies.
>CANDIDE
>Glowing logs.
>CUNEGONDE
>Faithful servants.
>CANDIDE
>Faithful dogs.
>CUNEGONDE
>We'll round the world enjoying high life,
>All bubbly pink champagne and gold.
>CANDIDE
>We'll lead a rustic and a shy life,
>Feeding the pigs and sweetly growing old.
>CUNEGONDE
>Breast of peacock.
>CANDIDE
>Apple pie.
>CUNEGONDE
>I love marriage.
>CANDIDE
>So do I.
>CUNEGONDE, CANDIDE
>Oh, happy pair!
>Oh, happy we!
>It's very rare
>How we agree.
Now, why does this remind me of the opening theme to "Green Acres"?
--
Pete LaGrange
the post.com addy is a spam trap
substitute hotmail for post if you wish to e-mail

From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 1:45 AM

Pete LaGrange wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:09:10 -0800, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Finally!!  Here are the lyrics I was looking for. Please be aware that
>>Candide and Cunegonde are singing this duet to each other and are
>>complimenting themselves on how well they agree on their idea(s) of
>>marriage. Without the music you can only get a glimpse of the wonderful
>>sarcasm and irony in this piece. 'Nuff said. Here 'tis:
>>
>>"Oh, Happy We"
>>
>>CANDIDE
>>Soon, when we feel we can afford it,
>>We'll build a modest little farm.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>We'll buy a yacht and live aboard it,
>>Rolling in luxury and stylish charm.
>>CANDIDE
>>Cows and chickens.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Social whirls.
>>CANDIDE
>>Peas and cabbage.
>>GUNEGONDE
>>Ropes of pearls.
>>CANDIDE
>>Soon there'll be little ones beside us;
>>We'll have a sweet Westphalian home.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Somehow we'll grow as rich as Midas;
>>We'll live in Paris when we're not in Rome.
>>
>>CANDIDE
>>Smiling babies.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Marble halls.
>>CANDIDE
>>Sunday picnics.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Costume balls.
>>Oh, won't my robes of silk and satin
>>Be chic! I'll have all that I desire.
>>CANDIDE
>>Pangloss will tutor us in Latin
>>And Greek, while we sit before the fire.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Glowing rubies.
>>CANDIDE
>>Glowing logs.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Faithful servants.
>>CANDIDE
>>Faithful dogs.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>We'll round the world enjoying high life,
>>All bubbly pink champagne and gold.
>>CANDIDE
>>We'll lead a rustic and a shy life,
>>Feeding the pigs and sweetly growing old.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>Breast of peacock.
>>CANDIDE
>>Apple pie.
>>CUNEGONDE
>>I love marriage.
>>CANDIDE
>>So do I.
>>CUNEGONDE, CANDIDE
>>Oh, happy pair!
>>Oh, happy we!
>>It's very rare
>>How we agree.
>
>
> Now, why does this remind me of the opening theme to "Green Acres"?
Candide by Bernstein et al. first appeared on Broadway in 1956. The "Green Acres" television program first aired in 1965.

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc?"

Dr. Rufo


From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:09 AM

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:33:59 +0200, Hairy Antelope aka Gnu wrote:

>  On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:24:49 +0200,  you , Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>  <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>, wrote:
>
>>BTW. On page 9 of my NEL edition of _Friday_, one of the four names of
>>the tailing agent whom Friday kills; is named "Adolph Belsen". On page
>>11 the same name is rendered "Alfred Belsen". Is this a typo in my
>>edition only; or do all you guys and girls have it too?
>
> I have it too - but then it's also an NEL print - an April 1983
> paperback  reprint of a March 1983 paperback print, following on after a
> 1982 hardcover print  - (must have been good sales those  years!!!)
>
> Be interesting to see what printing yours comes from ..
March 1983 it is. The "Adolph" is "Adolf" though, as I noted elsethread.
--
J-V.

From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:56 AM

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:33:59 +0200, Hairy Antelope aka Gnu wrote:

>  On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:24:49 +0200,  you , Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>  <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>, wrote:
>
>>BTW. On page 9 of my NEL edition of _Friday_, one of the four names of
>>the tailing agent whom Friday kills; is named "Adolph Belsen". On page
>>11 the same name is rendered "Alfred Belsen". Is this a typo in my
>>edition only; or do all you guys and girls have it too?
>
> I have it too - but then it's also an NEL print - an April 1983
> paperback  reprint of a March 1983 paperback print, following on after a
> 1982 hardcover print  - (must have been good sales those  years!!!)
>
> Be interesting to see what printing yours comes from ..
Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I wasn't hallucinating after all.

The wraparound cover is interresting in itself. In the backround two city-enclaves are getting the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment (thick black plumes rising). Also in the backround, a Landoo coach.

In the foreground, upon a golfcourse grade grassy field there is Marjorie Jones/Baldwin/Belgium/whatever leaning on a slightly DeLoreanesque police hovercar/APV. Make that "Imperium police/ stateline patrol" (just used a microscope on the cover). She is a copper redhead with definite anorexic looks. Think Pat Benatar crossed with Michelle Pfeiffer (sp?). She is wearing an onesleeved gold spandex body with a separate "sleeve" of the same material on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a certain stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand (blackish mixed with reddish).

In the very foreground however; is something I definitely must have missed from the book itself. There stands a Black Cat ready to pounce, eyes turned skywards, tail a question mark. Very disconcerting, to put it mildly.

--
J-V.

From: "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 4:58 AM

"Pete LaGrange" <oldman1961@post.com> wrote in message news:o0m27vget6bsqq9fgotjnp6d04inkrm6cq@4ax.com...

> Now, why does this remind me of the opening theme to "Green Acres"?
Doesn't it just? But it also reminds me of "I Remember It Well."

--Dee

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:04 AM

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:13:32 +0200, William Hughes wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:48:53 -0500, in alt.fan.heinlein Howard Berkowitz
> <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>
>> And, indeed, Wiccan symbolism of the Earth Goddess receiving the Sun
>> God.
>
> "There is only one god!"
> "He is the Sun God!"
> "Ra!"
> "Ra!"
> "Ra!"
>
>
> sorry...
So am I. (not really)

Let me cast my memory to ages long past...

At Noreascon 3 (the Worldcon of the year <mumble>) there was a masquerade contest at which one of the contestants was a scrawny fella dressed in Egyptian style. On his head there was an elaborate Carmen Mirandaesque contraption topped with an American Football type "pigskin".

There was a definite stench of nervous excitement at the venue at that moment. I couldn't help myself when the toastmaster Robert (silverbob) Silverberg announced the entrant as "The Sungod Ra", I let out "Ra, ra, ra"

Well, that is what I intended. By the time I had chanted the third "ra", the whole house had taken it up. And none of us could give it up! Not shushings from Mr. Silverberg, not the obvious embarrasment of the object of our chants who finally slunk to backstage, nothing. We literally kept the chant alive for minutes past any reasonable standard of decency. I have since exploited the power of crowds quite deliberately, but that was the first instance when I felt it.

--
J-V.

From: "bookman" <Thebookman@kc.rr.NULL.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:16 AM

"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in message news:pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com...

> on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight
> platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a
> certain stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand
> (blackish mixed with reddish).
Granite, perhaps? (Although red/black is hardly the only granite pattern, IIRC.

HTH,

--
Rusty the bookman

Minion of Phil #0001
You don't understand the power of the insufficiently lit side.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, and they're starvation cheap
- Kipling

From: "Hairy Antelope aka Gnu" <o66cdd102@sneakemail.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 7:16 AM

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:56:57 +0200, you , Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>, wrote:

<stuff snipped>

>stateline patrol" (just used a microscope on the cover). She is
>a copper redhead with definite anorexic looks.
Sounds pretty much the same cover, but I'd hardly call her "anorexic". She has far too much thigh, breast and other body curves for anorexic ... Slim, yes, anorexic, no ... sexy - definitely !!! (maybe you need to see a picture of a *real* anorexic ... I probably have one here somewhere .... think skeleton with skin ... floppy skin bags for breasts, great big hollow where that gently out-curved midriff is supposed to be .. Ugh !!!) (yep, I have always said I have a Weird Picture Collection !!!)
>In the very foreground however; is something I definitely must
>have missed from the book itself. There stands a Black Cat
>ready to pounce, eyes turned skywards, tail a question mark.
I doubt that we have different covers, simply because they match on too many points, and I doubt they'd change them for a reprinting only a month or so later, but I'd argue about the cat - "my" black cat is looking directly forward, and his tail is at something like three-quarter mast ... not what I'd regard as a "question mark" tail

Oh, and that "golf course like grass" ... uh uh ... there are weeds, and what look like flattened mole-hills in the very foreground ... (unless you play some rather rough greens :-))

>Very disconcerting, to put it mildly.
Why ??? Cat got your ...er ... ease of mind :-))
--
]-  1260 ft-lb/the weight of the problem = the length of the solution.     
]-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To reply by e-mail, insert the phrase "I'm a Gnu" in the subject line
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hairy Antelope aka Gnu" <o66cdd102@sneakemail.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 7:16 AM

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:16:45 GMT, you , "bookman" <Thebookman@kc.rr.NULL.com>, wrote:

>
>"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
>message news:pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com...
>
>> on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight
>> platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a
>> certain stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand
>> (blackish mixed with reddish).
>
>Granite, perhaps?  (Although red/black is hardly the only granite
>pattern, IIRC.
Pattern isn't really right for granite
--
]-  1260 ft-lb/the weight of the problem = the length of the solution.     
]-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To reply by e-mail, insert the phrase "I'm a Gnu" in the subject line
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:41 AM

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:16:54 +0200, Hairy Antelope aka Gnu wrote:

>  On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:56:57 +0200,  you , Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>  <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>, wrote:
>
> <stuff snipped>
>
>>stateline patrol" (just used a microscope on the cover). She is a copper
>>redhead with definite anorexic looks.
>
> Sounds pretty much the same cover, but I'd hardly call her "anorexic".
> She has far too much thigh, breast and other body curves for anorexic
> ...  Slim, yes, anorexic, no ...  sexy - definitely !!!   (maybe you
> need to see a picture of a *real* anorexic ... I probably have one here
> somewhere .... think skeleton with skin ... floppy skin bags for
> breasts, great big hollow where that gently out-curved midriff is
> supposed to be ..  Ugh !!!)  (yep, I have always said I have a Weird
> Picture Collection !!!)
Well, they say that Victoria Beckham is anorexic (Posh Spice from the "Spice Girls"). The Marj on this cover definitely has a waspish waist. Just because you have pictures of freaks :-) doesn't mean that that the extreme is the only deviation from the norm. (And I mean that from the bottom of my Beer-belly).
>>In the very foreground however; is something I definitely must have
>>missed from the book itself. There stands a Black Cat ready to pounce,
>>eyes turned skywards, tail a question mark.
>
> I doubt that we have different covers, simply because they match on too
> many points, and I doubt they'd change them for a reprinting only a
> month or so later,   but I'd argue about the cat -  "my" black cat is
> looking directly forward, and his tail is at something like
> three-quarter mast ...  not what I'd regard as a "question mark" tail
>
On the tail, Nolo Contendere (I'm not admitting nuthin' but if you see the cover somewhere, make up your own mind, don't lissen to him :-)

Looking at the cat's eyes however... (and using a microscope for this purpose... )

The pupils just about edge at the cilia. Looking forward, naa-aah.

The cat's ears however are in a defensive preparedness posture, a factum I forgot to mention.

> Oh, and that "golf course like grass" ... uh uh ... there are weeds, and
> what look like flattened mole-hills in the very foreground ... (unless
> you play some rather rough greens :-))
>
I don't play. Golf.
The weeds (the plural here is necessary, but misleading) you mention count to around 5-6 at the very right lower corner?

One of them is a palmate leaf of the cannabis kind, the rest are identifiable, but not by me.

>>Very disconcerting, to put it mildly.
>
> Why ???   Cat got your ...er ... ease of mind :-))
>
Very much so... No joke either.
--
J-V.

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:12 AM

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:16:45 +0200, bookman wrote:

> "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
> message news:pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com...
>
>> on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight
>> platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a certain
>> stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand (blackish mixed with
>> reddish).
>
> Granite, perhaps?  (Although red/black is hardly the only granite
> pattern, IIRC.
>
> HTH,
Not really. Finland has an abundance of granite. I am thinking about a semi-precious stone... AAaargh. I'll have to google for it, or visit a library.
--
J-V.

From: "Howard Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:47 AM

In article <pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com>,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:33:59 +0200, Hairy Antelope aka Gnu wrote:
>
> >  On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:24:49 +0200,  you , Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
> >  <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>, wrote:
> >
> >>BTW. On page 9 of my NEL edition of _Friday_, one of the four names of
> >>the tailing agent whom Friday kills; is named "Adolph Belsen". On page
> >>11 the same name is rendered "Alfred Belsen". Is this a typo in my
> >>edition only; or do all you guys and girls have it too?
> >
> > I have it too - but then it's also an NEL print - an April 1983
> > paperback  reprint of a March 1983 paperback print, following on after a
> > 1982 hardcover print  - (must have been good sales those  years!!!)
> >
> > Be interesting to see what printing yours comes from ..
>
> Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I wasn't hallucinating after
> all.
>
> The wraparound cover is interresting in itself. In the backround
> two city-enclaves are getting the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment
> (thick black plumes rising). Also in the backround, a Landoo
> coach.
An aside, but WTH, with respect to Sodom and Gomorrah. We have some idea of the proximate cause of Sodom's destruction, but what _did_ they do in Gomorrah?

(unfortunately, the case report to the New England Journal of Medicine, the only absolute best-of-breed journal that still manages flashes of bizarre humor, is not online. The report dealt with "Extreme hypernatremia and dehydration in a young woman of Mediterranean origins.", IIRC the title.


From: "djinn" <qinjingyou@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 11:48 AM

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in news:pan.2003.03.14.19.11.59.674468.27215@thiswelho.com:

> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:16:45 +0200, bookman wrote:
>
>
>> "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
>> message news:pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com...
>>
>>> on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight
>>> platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a certain
>>> stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand (blackish mixed with
>>> reddish).
>>
>> Granite, perhaps?  (Although red/black is hardly the only granite
>> pattern, IIRC.
>>
>> HTH,
>
> Not really. Finland has an abundance of granite. I am thinking about
> a semi-precious stone... AAaargh. I'll have to google for it, or
> visit a library.
>
Garnet? Its a pretty reddish semi-precious.
From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 12:00 PM

djinn wrote:

> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2003.03.14.19.11.59.674468.27215@thiswelho.com:
>
>
>>On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:16:45 +0200, bookman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
>>>message news:pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight
>>>>platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a certain
>>>>stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand (blackish mixed with
>>>>reddish).
>>>
>>>Granite, perhaps?  (Although red/black is hardly the only granite
>>>pattern, IIRC.
>>>
>>>HTH,
>>
>>Not really. Finland has an abundance of granite. I am thinking about
>>a semi-precious stone... AAaargh. I'll have to google for it, or
>>visit a library.
>>
>
>
> Garnet? Its a pretty reddish semi-precious.
>
Carnelian, perhaps?
From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 1:24 PM

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:58:57 +0200, David M. Silver wrote:

> In article <pan.2003.03.12.19.17.50.625129.24975@thiswelho.com>,
>  Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:10:24 +0200, David M. Silver wrote:
>>
>> > In article <pan.2003.03.12.11.05.28.138371.24076@thiswelho.com>,
>> >  Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> OK. Let me throw this counterproposal onto the field:
>> >>
>> >> Friday is a grail legend, told from the POV of the grail.
>> >
>> > 'splain that one a bit, please, Jussi.
>>
>> Truth is that I was just about to post a long followup, contrasting
>> Friday with _Justine_ by (Alphonse Donatien {accents?} AKA. Marquis de
>> Sade), when suddenly I had a totally unscheduled insight. I posted that
>> with no logical support at all.
>>
>> Since I posted it, I have checked the book. Peter's real name is
>> "Percival". Also I might note, that Where ever Friday goes, she is
>> always the object of someones search, protection; or both.
>>
>> The key line "My mother was a test tube, and my farther was a blade."
>> Is quite definitely a reference to the cup and the sword. .
>> There is more, but mostly fairly tentative impressions. It might even
>> be that _Friday_ is somehow a allegorical history of the developement
>> of the *legend* itself, thus being a sort of a meta-legend, but that is
>> stretching it quite a bit.
>>
>> Since that idea came to me out of the blue, I will have to ponder it
>> some more...
>
> Ponder away. It's getting very interesting. :-D
>
Ohkayh. I am deliberately delaying rereading "Candide" just so I don't crosscontaminate my interpretation...

Right at this moment, _Friday_ reads like a travesty of the grail legend to me. ("travesty" is a sexy word, is it not?)

The "feast" where the grail serves all present is travestied by the rape scene.

During the whole arch of the story, she provides all sorts of gifts. Knowledge to Harley M. Baldwin. A winning Lottery ticket while compagnion of Georges.

I think the opening of chapter 33 is not totally coincidental...

Yadda-Yadda.. "This memoir has been based on tapes I made at Pajaro Sands before boss died, then on notes I made shortly after coming here, notes to "perpetuate the evidence" when I still thought I might have to fight extradition."

Apart from "Pajaro Sands" resonating with other alliterative "stuff" this is followed by:

"How many eggs we got last season? Are you interested? /I/ am but you are not.

If one buys into one of the most "check your assumtions at the door" sections of interpretation, ONE of the purposes of the grail legend was to keep a "ledger of grievances". Here Heinlein seems to make light of that, saying in effect that it has expired...

--
J-V.

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 2:41 PM

In article <ag.plusone-874CEA.01244710032003@news.fu-berlin.de>,

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> RAH Reading Group on AIM
> The "Gulf" (_Starman Jones_?)-_Friday_  Universe.
> Meeting Dates and Times:  Thursday, March 20, 2003, from 8 to 11 PM, EST
>          and Saturday, March 22, 2003, from 5 to 8 PM, EST
> Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"
>
> Last week the misspelled "Chavinist" thread  concerning Heinlein's 
> _Friday_ (1982) quickly resulted in upwards of thirty replies from afh.
> The discussion ranged a bit farther than simply the story of Marjorie
> Baldwin exodus from Terra, involving at least three other Heinlein
> stories: "Gulf" written for Campbell's November and December 1949 issues
> of "Astounding SF," _Stranger in a Strange Land_ which had its genesis
> in the same conversation as "Gulf" but finally finished twelve years
> later for publication in 1961, and the juvenile novel _Starman Jones_
> written for the Christmas season 1953 Scribners publication.
>
> So, I thought, why not have a reading group meeting on the subjects
> mentioned in that thread, and others that might be generated? It's time
> to read or reread Friday and "Gulf," and perhaps a few other suggested
> works.
>
> Note: the story "Gulf" can be found in Baen's recently reissued
> _Assignment in Eternity_ collection by Robert A. Heinlein. Use Amazon's
> site to find the ISBN if your bookseller is understocked or inept.
>
> Some other thoughts . . . about the Friday universe.
>
[snip description of serious RAH 1978 illness]
>
> _Expanded Universe_, a partly non-fiction compilation of short stories,
> which was an expansion of _The Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein_ followed.
> It was generated during a telephone conversation transcribed by editor
> James Baen and was published in 1980, resulting in about two years of
> little but answering questions from readers.
>
> Ginny's "Afterword" tells us Robert in 1981, at seventy-four years of
> age, decided to withdraw from other activities and do little more than
> simply write.
>
> _Friday_ was the first story that followed. Why? Ginny told me in a
> conversation last year that she and Robert talked about what he might
> write when he decided to begin anew in 1981. Robert said he'd always
> felt he was not finished with the character Hartley "Kettle [Belly]"
> Baldwin, the Master of superman world savers, from "Gulf." So Heinlein
> decided to return to the world of that character and what followed the
> story of "Gulf."  _Friday_ resulted. [snip Century XX note.]
>
> Why the title? and why is Marjorie Baldwin's nickname "Friday"? Perhaps
> it is to remind us of one of the first novel length prose fictions in
> English.
[snip etext sites for Robinson Crusoe]
>
> That romance is considered the most famous of Daniel Defoe's works,
> today is called _Robinson Crusoe_, written and published in 1719 with
> the full title: _The Life and strange and surprising Adventures of
> Robinson Crusoe_. [snip parts of precs of story]
> His island is not wholly uninhabited, though, and there
> is the exciting but ominous presence of cannibals who Crusoe
> occasionally encounters and saves a native from. The latter becomes his
> servant, Man Friday. The crew of a mutinying ship finally rescue our
> hero, but it is his adventure on the island that interests us. The story
> has remained popular ever since its publication and it spawned two
> sequels: later in 1719 with The Farther Adventures of Robinson Crusoe
> and a third part, The Serious Reflections of Robinson Crusoe, in 1720
> which consisted of moral essays. [snip].
>
> Can somebody tell me why Heinlein alluded to the story and used the name
> to label his woman protagonist character?
>
> I've also frequently noted the resemblance in plot to Voltaire's
> Candide. [snip]
> What do we think about this "Universe" and _Whatever_ is Heinlein up to,
> returning to his "superman" Baldwin?
I've asked downthread whether anyone particularly disagrees with my theory that Heinlein reworked the plot in Candide. Although there has been some suggestion that other elements might be included -- the Grail legend, others, I've really seen no serious disagreement; but an interesting side issue did come up. Leonard Bernstein's operetta _Candide_ conceived by him, Lilian Hellman, and others at a time which was not viewed by them as necessarily the "best of times."

Let me try to provoke some further discussion. Maybe I'm mooching again, maybe not.

The early 1950s was the time of McCarthyism in the United States; Uncle Joe Stalin was demonstrating he had the bomb too; the Rosenbergs were executed for treason; we found ourselves fighting what today is called "The Forgotten War," UnWar1 as Oscar Gordon calls it -- some boys as always lost their fathers; the plan to control atomic weapons by the United Nations was by then firmly rejected; and Robert Heinlein, so he tells us, had given up on "world saving." "How to be a Politician" was unpublished and relegated to the closet, or wherever unpublishable manuscripts were kept by him and Ginny.

Instead, what shortly seemed left for him to write was "How To Be a Survivor," but it too went into the closet for about three decades.

Heinlein's stories, those he did publish, turned to increasingly serious social criticism, and became darker, even the juveniles. There is a chapter in _Between Planets_, the one containing the 'writing on the wall' when Don Harvery dines with Jefferson amid opulence and foreboding. It is lyrical in description -- the end of a cycle, a civilization: time for a revolution, as Jefferson would say. Another lyrically descriptive scene was written in _Puppet Masters_ about the same time, the scene describing the Potomac, with the deluge of slugs to come, following which there will be a war of worlds.

So, why again, does Heinlein, at seventy-four years of age, nearly thirty years later -- well past the time most retire, turn to the story of Baldwin and his superman? And why does he use stories of Voltaire (and Defoe, if I'm right about the name allusion) as a model?

Heinlein implies in his writings he was influenced by the Durants. Will and Ariel Durant called one of their history volumes "The Age of Voltaire," with reason. There's no question Voltaire strongly influenced that age. Yet, consider who and what Voltaire was. Voltaire was a lot like Heinlein was in 1981 when Voltaire wrote his greatest conte (a French term which can mean simply a short story, but is more likely to be a short parable or fable), "Candide," pretty damned old, very rich, and well-insulated from any dangers the world posed on his estate in Switzerland.

There really was a tremendous earthquake off Lisbon, Portugal, that did result in horrendous death and destruction, and did spark on June 2, 1756, an auto de fe, prior to Voltaire's writing of "Candide," in 1759. Imagine that: here we are well within the so-called age of reason; and what do we have going on? -- a medieval expiation by human sacrifice of God taking place in highly civilized Europe -- humans slowly burned at the stake to preserve others from earthly and natural disasters. There's a war going on in Europe, the latest in an interminable series of wars, the Seven Years War -- we called it the French and Indian War in the colonies -- in which the French and the Prussians, among others, are raping and butchering and pillaging each others' citizenry and countries -- in fact, the so-called "Dr. Ralph" the psuedonym used by Voltaire to easily avoid prosecution for writing such anti-establishment satire, is supposedly a casualty of the Battle of Minden, in Westphalia, in 1759. The conte "Candide" was supposedly found among the dead doctor's papers.

"Candide" (and some of Voltaire's other works) set off an intellectual, political and social firestorm, one that finally drove the stake into the heart of a world view that had prevailed mainly up until then: the so-called "deterministic" view of the world: everything, especially including the most malign evils in the world, is pre-ordained; for it's what God wills; and his will is best for us in this "best of all possible worlds" in which we live. Following that came revolutions: governments fell, kings went to the scaffold, modern democracies came to exist; but a lot of people also died or suffered while that went on. Whether that was best for the world, this one right here, is another question. Burke and Jefferson later might have expressed differing views only thirty-five years later.

So why go back to a failed superman -- a half blind man (like Pangloss) on sticks -- and his organization for an answer to whatever about society was bothering Heinlein in 1981? We had discussion downthread about whether that "organization" of supermen saving the world had continued or continues on past the departure of many of its members for the 'red-monkey planet': I'm not convinced it did. In fact, I'm not quite sure what Baldwin's outfit was doing -- unless the snake that swallows its own tale was to have later shown up in that place that was sixty minutes from anywhere (cf. the farm that Richard Ames, Manual O'Kelly, et al. meet in Cat).

It seems to me there's a few other unexplained things here as well: the disintergrated nations: there's a separate California Confederation, a Chicago Imperium, a Lone Star State, etc., -- and for Marc, there's even a separate Wales, so it isn't just the United States that has fragmented -- and we've got the corporate "States." It's really a chaotic world -- and interminable wars seem just dragging on: the Bulgars fighting just about anyone at will. "Free ships" (pirates), "free companies" (mercenaries), and in California, just outside where Heinlein was living, San Jose, free tokes and free toilets brought to you by the Chief himself. Is this what the "freedom" Voltaire's thoughts provoked necessarily leads to?

There's something else going on as well: ironically, the more humanity advances -- and Marjorie Baldwin is the most advanced human Heinlein ever suggested: super beauty, super powers, and a supergenius -- the more enslaved humanity is. She doesn't want to fall into the hands of the Imperium cops: those boys burn your mind out during interrogation, just like the ones who interrogated Don Harvey and Jefferson (who thought revolutions should occur every generation), who had that unfortunate heart failure during questioning.

And finally, I think Kettle Belly is complicit in the great plot to enslave his 'daughter' itself. He doesn't have her lactation ability restored becasue of aesthetic prinicpals: he knows she pregnant, she was inseminated before the beginning of the story. He took money to send her off to be host mother for that heir to the Reign.

His Woman Friday -- his slave, just as much as Man Friday was Crusoe's.

Did I provoke anything? Chat meeting on these topics in just six days .

. .

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_Universe

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 1:07 AM

David M. Silver wrote:

<big ole snip -- once again no stipulations>

> And finally, I think Kettle Belly is complicit in the great plot to
> enslave his 'daughter' itself. He doesn't have her lactation ability
> restored becasue of aesthetic prinicpals: he knows she pregnant, she was
> inseminated before the beginning of the story. He took money to send her
> off to be host mother for that heir to the Reign.
1. The restoration of Miss Friday's functioning nipple rather than the use of a prosthetic replacement is at the start of the book and takes place in the Chicago Imperium.

2. Her employment by Sikmaa, Mosby et al. is way past page 200 and takes place in the California Confederation (remember they drive up Rodeo Drive in the carriage drawn by two bays).

3. Friday says (in her explanation of the route taken by the ship on the Grand Tour) -- I will get rid of this "most valuable cargo in the galaxy" less than a month after warping away from Stationary Station.

4. In her first interview with Mac/Pete/Percival the erstwhile rapist/terrorist/thug says: "Dr. Baldwin was a mugwump, a maverick, not part of the system." (Of course, Pete is not a "B" cell person.)

5. Her pregnancy testing/verification is right after her first planetfall due to her susceptability to motion sickness/morning sickness. This is typically a first trimester phenomenon. Not "always" but "typically."

6. If, as you suggest, the bun was in the oven ab origine, the bulk of the book should fall in Friday's first trimester or, at the latest into the second. She specifically mentions a "tenderness" in her mammaries "lately" right after the test result are in. Is that symptom congruent with your time analysis?

Query: How much time has elapsed from Friday's descent of the Beanstalk on page one to her "french leave" (I couldn't resist.) on Botany Bay. Are there specific indications or only approximations. I got the feeling that much more time than three months had passed.

Hey, I found "time markers":

1. Since leaving Ell--Five space city two days earlier -- L-5 to Chicago Imperium via Mombasa, Nairobi and Alaska.

2. Unspecified length of time for recuperation after the rape.

3.Nine weeks later (after her re-training) Friday goes to NZ.

4. After a "few days" there she says: "For almost three months, ever since the night I had discussed it with Boss, I had for the first time been feeling easy about my "human" status."

5. an overnight with Freddie & Betty & Ian in Aus.

6. Another dya-and-a-half in Canada

7. When Friday is in Bellingham, WA with Georges, she listens to a voice mail wait message about mailing christmas packages early and Christmas is "half a year away."

More later?

Dr. rufo


From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_Universe

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 1:22 AM

In article <3E72C330.4040600@mindspring.com>, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Query:  How much time has elapsed from Friday's descent of the Beanstalk
> on page one to her "french leave" (I couldn't resist.) on Botany Bay.
> Are there specific indications or only approximations. I got the feeling
> that much more time than three months had passed.
"Liberty leave" is _so_ redundant.
From: Kullervo Nurmi <kultsi.spamtrap@pp.inet.fi>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 5:55 AM

"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

>djinn wrote:
>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2003.03.14.19.11.59.674468.27215@thiswelho.com:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:16:45 +0200, bookman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
>>>>message news:pan.2003.03.14.12.56.55.778595.27215@thiswelho.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>on her left arm. Same colour boots with flat soles but a slight
>>>>>platform for the heel. The tights she is wearing remind me of a certain
>>>>>stone, but I can't remember the name of it offhand (blackish mixed with
>>>>>reddish).
>>>>
>>>>Granite, perhaps?  (Although red/black is hardly the only granite
>>>>pattern, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>>HTH,
>>>
>>>Not really. Finland has an abundance of granite. I am thinking about
>>>a semi-precious stone... AAaargh. I'll have to google for it, or
>>>visit a library.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Garnet? Its a pretty reddish semi-precious.
Garnets actually come in _many_ colors, not just the common ruby red.
>>
>
>Carnelian, perhaps?
Any mixtures of colors must be results of inrusion of other minerals into the base material, as long as we don't consider iridescent stones like labradorite or spectrolite, in which the interference is the reason for the colors.

Red jasper with plentiful magnetite intrusions, rhodonite with darker intrusions, some variants of agate are what come to mind. Seeing the picture would be extremely helpful. (hint, hint...)

Kultsi

---
The space below is reserved for the .sig of
	kullervo dot nurmi at pp dot inet dot fi
	http://personal.inet.fi/cool/kultsi/
No parking allowed.  Spammers will promptly end up in bit bucket.
---

From: charles krin <ckrin@iamerica.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:20 AM

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:08:59 -0800, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

>
>The name of the Duet to which you refer is "Oh, Happy We."  I've been
>doing a Search for the complete lyrics and I've come up dry.  I offer
>the following from memory -- it's only the beginning of the song:
>
>Oh, Happy We
>
>He:Soon, when we feel we can afford it,
>	Well buy a modest little farm
>
>She:Well buy a yacht and live abord it,
>	Rolling in luxury and stylish charm.
>
>He:Cows and chickens,
>
>She:Social whirl
>
>He:Peas and carrots,
>
>She:Ropes of pearls.
>
>Both:Oh, happy pair,
>	Oh,  happy we,
>	Its very rare
>	How we agree.
hmmm...now we can tie in one of the longer running sitcoms (abet not in syndication anymore) to Candide as well...

Anyone else see the resemblance to the lyrics of the theme song from 'Green Acres?'

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

From: jeanette <wolfj@webtv.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 11:03 AM

The point of the GREEN ACRES theme song is to show the contrast and set up the premiss of the show. The couple know they have different values.

The song is CANDIDE is a love song. The music is very beautiful. The couple are singing how much they agree with each other. The only conflict happens in the mind of the listener who is paying attention to the words.

Another thread on ORPHANS is talking about the place of women in the society. Thinking about GREEN ACRES in 1965 and the line "You are my wife..." that settles the disagreement.

Jeanette--who is not trying to get into a discussion of marital relationships in situation comedies.


From: TreetopAngel <treetopangelstinks@micro-mania.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 6:45 PM

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

> An aside, but WTH, with respect to Sodom and Gomorrah. We have some
> idea
> of the proximate cause of Sodom's destruction, but what _did_ they do
> in Gomorrah?
>
> (unfortunately, the case report to the New England Journal of
> Medicine,
> the only absolute best-of-breed journal that still manages flashes of
> bizarre humor, is not online. The report dealt with "Extreme
> hypernatremia and dehydration in a young woman of Mediterranean
> origins.", IIRC the title.
<snicker> I saw that one too, will have to dig it up...

E!


From: Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday.

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 4:13 PM

My two bits from my just finished reading:

Baldwin goes from a "worker on the side of angels as he perceives it" using a group of supermen he feels can only replace homo sapiens, to being the head of an organization easily as advanced, no mention of supermen, still on the "side of the angels as he perceives it." No huhu there.

However, teh utter contempt that Baldwin manages to convey, in his warning to Friday, and then the lawyer's warning to her, concerning said supermen leads me to suspect a wonderful hidden story. What brought about an abrupt schism between Baldwin and the "self-styled" supermen? All reference to Renshaw, the special language, etc are dropped in Friday. The only thing I saw was the fact his library is number coded, just like in Gulf. Yet I know many people who use a number system, even outside of the Dewey that the Public Library uses.

In reference to the Grail, and the early rape:

Four men are involved in raping Friday. Taking J-V's theory, one represents the Church(Guinevere), one the Pagans(Viviane/Morgaine), one Arthur, and one is Lancelot. My reasoning is that in most of the more modern stories, and hearkening back to sources gone to dust, each of these four were the main motivators for the Grail search.

The church used the grail search to secure their hold on Arthur's rule. This was being done through Guinevere in Bradley's and other contemporary accounts.

The pagans were the original owners of the Chalice, again in the modern feminist versions.

Arthur needed the Grail search for keeping his lands at peace and strong. They had no common enemy so he gave them busy work.

Lancelot, beset by his entrapped marriage to Elaine, his love for Guinevere, and his loyalty to Arthur, searched longest and hardest for the Grail, as an excuse to stay away.

Anyway, those were the ramblings that hit as I read. Unfortunately, I can not seem to elucidate clearly any of the other thoughts that hit me. Forgive any spelling errors today, as I cannot take any meds to push my pain down far enough to think today.

Stephanie
"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: Jim <jim@deimos.starprobe.net>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday.

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 7:02 PM

Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill> wrote:

> However, teh utter contempt that Baldwin manages to convey, in his warning to
> Friday, and then the lawyer's warning to her, concerning said supermen leads me
> to suspect a wonderful hidden story.  What brought about an abrupt schism
> between Baldwin and the "self-styled" supermen?  All reference to Renshaw, the
> special language, etc are dropped in Friday.  The only thing I saw was the fact
> his library is number coded, just like in Gulf.  Yet I know many people who use
> a number system, even outside of the Dewey that the Public Library uses.
Having just reread both "Gulf" and "Friday", I too was struck by the differences between young Baldwin and old Baldwin. What caused the supermen's migration to Olympia, and why did Boss stay on Earth? Obviously, he still feels strongly about supermen and superwomen, enough to recruit and even adopt Friday, yet it seems he had a major fallout with them. I wonder if, in the time between the two stories, his influence in the organization lessened as the original group, whom he recruited and who were personally loyal to him, were killed in the line of duty or died some other way, and a new generation of supermen opposed him and started some kind of civil war, much like the Shipstone civil war that was Red Thursday. At which point, Baldwin realized there was no hope of bringing the utopia he desired on Earth, and went into a holding action, while the opposition ended up on Olympia. There's definitely another story in there. Alas, we'll never know now.

Completely changing the subject, there was something else I noticed while rereading "Friday", published in 1982, which was how modern a couple of scenes sounded:

1. When the Red Thursday chaos broke out, everyone rushed to the terminal and turned on the news, which basically rebroadcast the same news over and over, to the point where Janet cut the sound and kept only the news streamers going in case something new came in. That is exactly what I tend to do when a major news story occurs (like September 11, for example). While the anchors are babbling on about the random speculation of the minute, I mute the tv and occasionally check the news crawl on the bottom of the screen until I see something new.

2. When Friday finally rejoined Boss's organization, and he assigned her to study in the library, the way she "studied" reminded me a lot about the way I search on the internet. I read an interesting post on usenet about, say, Smedley Butler, fire up Yahoo or Google and search on "Smedley Butler", and four hours later I end up learning a whole bunch of history, 90% of which has nothing to do with Smedley Butler. The ways Friday calls up data, runs searches, and correlates data to develop mathematical formulae and graph the results all are either possible on the internet now, or probably will be within 5-10 years. Granted, some of the forerunners of the internet like milnet, and I think arpanet, were already in place in 1982, but once again RAH was able to predict plausible future technology and make it work in a story.

Jim

--
 "Every orbit we go over a slightly different part of the
  Earth. [...] it is glorious.  Even the stars have a special
  brightness."
                                       -- Laurel Clark

From: Norman Bullen <norm@BlackCatAssociates.com>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday.

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 9:37 PM

Stephanie wrote:

>
> My two bits from my just finished reading:
>
> Baldwin goes from a "worker on the side of angels as he perceives it" using a
> group of supermen he feels can only replace homo sapiens, to being the head of
> an organization easily as advanced, no mention of supermen, still on the "side
> of the angels as he perceives it."  No huhu there.
>
> However, teh utter contempt that Baldwin manages to convey, in his warning to
> Friday, and then the lawyer's warning to her, concerning said supermen leads me
> to suspect a wonderful hidden story.  What brought about an abrupt schism
> between Baldwin and the "self-styled" supermen?  All reference to Renshaw, the
> special language, etc are dropped in Friday.  The only thing I saw was the fact
> his library is number coded, just like in Gulf.  Yet I know many people who use
> a number system, even outside of the Dewey that the Public Library uses.
>
A thought that just crossed my mind, and I'm not sure where it will lead, is this:

Remember that Baldwin told Friday (explaining why she had been left to grow up in a creche) that he had been in prison for a while.

Perhaps the supermen left Earth while he was in prison and couldn't join them. Perhaps the supermen, or the fact of their departure, caused him to be imprisoned. Perhaps his disagreement with them, concerning possibly their attitude towards their normal cousins, was involved in his imprisonment.

Norm


From: "aardvark university" <uce@ftc.gov>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday.

Date: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:22 AM

Jim wrote:

> <snip>
>
> 2. When Friday finally rejoined Boss's organization, and he assigned her to
> study in the library, the way she "studied" reminded me a lot about the way
> I search on the internet.  I read an interesting post on usenet about, say,
> Smedley Butler, fire up Yahoo or Google and search on "Smedley Butler", and
> four hours later I end up learning a whole bunch of history, 90% of which has
> nothing to do with Smedley Butler.  The ways Friday calls up data, runs
> searches, and correlates data to develop mathematical formulae and graph the
> results all are either possible on the internet now, or probably will be
> within 5-10 years.  Granted, some of the forerunners of the internet like
> milnet, and I think arpanet, were already in place in 1982, but once again
> RAH was able to predict plausible future technology and make it work in a
> story.
>
> Jim
I picked up on that too. Amazing what Heinlein was able to predict 13 years before the creation of Spry Mosaic, the first internet browser.

You know though, as I read Friday last month for the first time I got the impression I'd seen it before somewhere, then it dawned on me - FUTURAMA.

Mike


From: DocJam00 <docjam00@aol.com>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday./ SF & Internet

Date: Monday, March 17, 2003 7:18 PM

Here's Murray Leinster/Will F. Jenkins in 1946's "A Logic Named Joe":

"You get a logic in your house.  It looks like a vision receiver used to, only
it's got keys instead of dials and you punch the keys for what you wanna get.
It's hooked in to the tank, which has the Carson Circuit all fixed up with
relays. Say you punch "Station SNAFU" on your logic.  Relays in the tank take
over an' whatever vision-program SNAFU is telecastin' comes on your logic's
screens.  Or you punch "Sally Hancock's Phone" an' the screen blinks an'
sputers an' you're hooked up with the logic in her house an' if somebody
answers you got a vision-phone connection.  But besides that, if you punch for
the weather forecast or who won today's race at Hialeah or who was mistress of
the White House durin' Garfield's administration or what is PDQ and R sellin'
for today, that comes on the screen too...it's hooked in with all the other
tanks all over the country -- an' anything you wanna know or see or hear, you
punch for it an' you get it.  Very convenient.  Also it does math for you, an'
keeps books, an' acts as consultin' chemist, physicist, astronomer an' tealeaf
reader, with an "Advice to Lovelorn" thrown in."
If that's not a prediction of the internet, and browsers, what is?

Oddly enough, I had always believed that nobody predicted the coming of the home computer in sf, and yet here is Murray Leinster (a friend of RAH's) predicting each home will have a "logic" -- and that it will fit into the trunk of your car!

Astonishing!

Robert James


From: "Hadley V Stacey" <h.v.stacey@xyz.att.net>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 8:37 AM "aardvark university" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message news:Pfpda.74548$Xu4.2244428@twister.tampabay.rr.com...

> Jim wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > 2. When Friday finally rejoined Boss's organization, and he assigned her to
> > study in the library, the way she "studied" reminded me a lot about the way
> > I search on the internet.  I read an interesting post on usenet about, say,
> > Smedley Butler, fire up Yahoo or Google and search on "Smedley Butler", and
> > four hours later I end up learning a whole bunch of history, 90% of which has
> > nothing to do with Smedley Butler.  The ways Friday calls up data, runs
> > searches, and correlates data to develop mathematical formulae and graph the
> > results all are either possible on the internet now, or probably will be
> > within 5-10 years.  Granted, some of the forerunners of the internet like
> > milnet, and I think arpanet, were already in place in 1982, but once again
> > RAH was able to predict plausible future technology and make it work in a
> > story.
> >
> > Jim
>
> I picked up on that too.  Amazing what Heinlein was able to predict 13
> years before the creation of Spry Mosaic, the first internet browser.
>
> You know though, as I read Friday last month for the first time I got
> the impression I'd seen it before somewhere, then it dawned on me -
> FUTURAMA.
>
> Mike
>
I believe the interesting point is the adaptation of a common method of "recreational research" used in earlier generations. When a child I used to read the encyclopedia; references in one topic would create questions in another. It wasn't uncommon to have 10 to 15 volumes open at once with bookmarks littered all over the place. Thirty years later, I found my son doing the same thing (all before the internet). My granddaughter does much the same using the internet now.

I also believe that the technology for interactive literature searches was fairly common about the time Friday was written. The extrapolation I saw was moving the technology out of the workplace into the home and even that wasn't new at the time (although I can't remember where I first saw it). To put things into perspective, I had an interactive graphics workstation in my home in 1976. To be sure, that wasn't common but text based workstations (terminals) were pretty common.

Hadley V. Stacey


From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:24 AM

The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be reconciled with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional means. The former is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme being, the latter most definitely scorns any such illusions as fodder for mental cripples.

So what is left?

1. Alternate histories? If so, why do both timelines share a crucial character? (Joe Green (Is this a pun on Giuseppe Verdi? If so, why?)) Sorry, I don't buy it.

2. Split personality disorder. I'm sorry, but I won't touch that one.

3. "Hartley M. Baldwin" is not a name but a title, the title-holder assuming the persona both legally and as a "role". This is weird, but it does have some personal fascination for me.

4. A "Damascene" conversion. That is; some extremely traumatic experience which would cause total apostasy. Very close to (2.) but different in that the two sides are not concurrent, nor is he necessarily suffering from cognitive dissonance.

5. A gradual disillusionment.over a *long* time of observing the world, humanity and how they interact. Quite plausible, but not overwhelmingly conclusive. Just as with (4.); one would expect to observe some stress-marks.

6. (for completeness only) A "senile" Heinlein "just lost the plot in his dotage." To me, this is not even remotely plausible. His story is so closely crafted and intricate.

--
J-V.

From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:03 AM

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

<snip>

>(Joe Green (Is this a pun on Giuseppe Verdi? If so, why?))
> Sorry, I don't buy it.
May I suggest that the name, "Joe Green" is a fairly "common" one selected for an individual possessing rather "uncommon" characteristics.

Dr. Rufo


From: "Stephanie" <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:56 AM

>From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

>The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be reconciled
>with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional means. The former
>is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme being, the latter most
>definitely scorns any such illusions as fodder for mental cripples.
>
I completely disagree with you, J-V. Having been through some drastic shake-ups in my short life, I can see a vast difference in my own persona from then to now. Take Heinlein, rumored to go from one politco extreme in his youth to another in elder years. Or, more noticeably, Reagan. A flaming liberal when an actor, by many of his peer's accounts, he is now counted and seen as a staunch conservative of the eighties. People change, some far more disturbingly than others.

I contend that there was a very earth-shaking upheaval after Joe's heroics that left Baldwin bitterly dissillusioned with the people he was guiding and the people he was protecting.

Stephanie
"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: "David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:06 PM

"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in message news:pan.2003.03.18.19.24.13.818599.4179@thiswelho.com...

> The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be reconciled
> with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional means. The former
> is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme being, the latter most
> definitely scorns any such illusions as fodder for mental cripples.
>
Could you please give references to text which shows the above. I have just finished re-reading both and I don't recall any such indications. Enquiring minds like to know ;-)
--
David Wright
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/index.html
http://heinleinsociety.org

Anytime is a good time to join us in The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/membership.html
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html

From: "Stephanie" <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:58 AM

>From: "David Wright" dwrighsr@alltel.net

>Could you please give references to text which shows the above. I have just
>finished re-reading both and I don't recall any such indications. Enquiring
>minds like to know ;-)
The "cripples" reference can be derived from the letter to Friday after Baldwin's death.

The belief in a higher being...I must have skipped that in the read of Gulf.

Stephanie
"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:19 PM

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:06:47 +0200, David Wright wrote:

> "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
> message news:pan.2003.03.18.19.24.13.818599.4179@thiswelho.com...
>> The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be reconciled
>> with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional means. The
>> former is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme being, the
>> latter most definitely scorns any such illusions as fodder for mental
>> cripples.
>>
> Could you please give references to text which shows the above. I have
> just finished re-reading both and I don't recall any such indications.
> Enquiring minds like to know ;-)
Can do better, here are quotes:

_Friday_

"I think you are immune to the temptations of religion. If you are
not, I cannot help you, anymore than I could keep you from
acquiring a drug habit. A religion is sometimes a source of
happiness and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it
is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong --
and you are strong.
<stopped typing there to locate the quote from "Gulf". Didn't>

Uh. Is it too late to call bullshit on myself?

:-/ :-\

--
J-V.

From: "Simon Jester" <simonjester@freeuk.com>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:45 PM

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

> The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be reconciled
> with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional means. The former
> is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme being, the latter most
> definitely scorns any such illusions as fodder for mental cripples.
>
> So what is left?
...
Another possibility - they were two completely separate individuals with the same name. Baldwin is a fairly common surname; Hartley is (currently) a less common forename, but the combination is not too unlikely. The nickname "Kettle Belly" could have been applied to the "Friday" Baldwin years earlier by people who had seen / heard adverts for the "Gulf" Baldwin's helicopters.
From: "David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 4:26 PM

"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in

message news:pan.2003.03.18.22.19.01.602461.4179@thiswelho.com...

> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:06:47 +0200, David Wright wrote:
>
>
> > "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
> > message news:pan.2003.03.18.19.24.13.818599.4179@thiswelho.com...
> >> The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be reconciled
> >> with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional means. The
> >> former is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme being, the
> >> latter most definitely scorns any such illusions as fodder for mental
> >> cripples.
> >>
> > Could you please give references to text which shows the above. I have
> > just finished re-reading both and I don't recall any such indications.
> > Enquiring minds like to know ;-)
>
> Can do better, here are quotes:
>
> _Friday_
>
> "I think you are immune to the temptations of religion. If you are
> not, I cannot help you, anymore than I could keep you from
> acquiring a drug habit. A religion is sometimes a source of
> happiness and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it
> is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong --
> and you are strong.
>
I thought that that was what you were referring to, but I disagree that 'mental cripple' is implied by that. Not everyone can be a 'Friday' and not all of the 'weak' could be classified as 'mental cripples'. At least, that's MHO.
> <stopped typing there to locate the quote from "Gulf". Didn't>
>
> Uh. Is it too late to call bullshit on myself?
>
Not at all. I most have read this story at least a dozen or two times over the last 50 years and I didn't think that one could have characterized him as such. However, I usually get something that I hadn't noticed each time I read a RAH work, so I could easily have missed this one.
--
David Wright
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/index.html
http://heinleinsociety.org

Anytime is a good time to join us in The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/membership.html
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: Ketlle-Belly vs. Kettle-Belly.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:42 PM

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 02:26:38 +0200, David Wright wrote:

> "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
> message news:pan.2003.03.18.22.19.01.602461.4179@thiswelho.com...
>> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:06:47 +0200, David Wright wrote:
>>
>>
>> > "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote
>> > in message news:pan.2003.03.18.19.24.13.818599.4179@thiswelho.com...
>> >> The "Gulf" and _Friday_ versions of Kettle-Belly cannot be
>> >> reconciled with each other through ordinary inter-textual fictional
>> >> means. The former is a deeply spiritual man believing in a supreme
>> >> being, the latter most definitely scorns any such illusions as
>> >> fodder for mental cripples.
>> >>
>> > Could you please give references to text which shows the above. I
>> > have just finished re-reading both and I don't recall any such
>> > indications. Enquiring minds like to know ;-)
>>
>> Can do better, here are quotes:
>>
>> _Friday_
>>
>> "I think you are immune to the temptations of religion. If you are not,
>> I cannot help you, anymore than I could keep you from acquiring a drug
>> habit. A religion is sometimes a source of happiness and I would not
>> deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the
>> weak, not for the strong -- and you are strong.
>>
>>
> I thought that that was what you were referring to, but I disagree that
> 'mental cripple' is implied by that. Not everyone can be a 'Friday' and
> not all of the 'weak' could be classified as 'mental cripples'. At
> least, that's MHO.
>
>> <stopped typing there to locate the quote from "Gulf". Didn't>
>>
>> Uh. Is it too late to call bullshit on myself?
>>
> Not at all. I most have read this story at least a dozen or two times
> over the last 50 years and I didn't think that one could have
> characterized him as such. However, I usually get something that I
> hadn't noticed each time I read a RAH work, so I could easily have
> missed this one.
Most gracious. Actually the germ for my error was quite likely the following quote from Dr. Weems (not Kettle-Belly nor even apposite to the claim I made):

"psychons are as yet beyond our comprehension in many respects. Theory
indicates that they may not be destroyed, that thought, like action, is
persistent. Whether or not such theory, if true, means that personal
identity is also persistent must remain an open question. See the daily
papers -- a few hundred years from now -- or a few hundred thousand."
<heavy excuse mode on>

I am two quarters "Savonian". (Not half, two quarters)

The saying goes: "When a Savonian speaks, the responsibility [for truth] is transferred to the listener."

<extend excuse mode to eternity>

--
J-V.

From: Ed Reppert <ereppert@rochester.rr.invalid>

Subject: Re: Some trivial notes on Friday.

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:09 PM

In article <ag8da.33558$A%3.420469@ord-read.news.verio.net>, Jim <jim@deimos.starprobe.net> wrote:

> Granted, some of the forerunners of the internet like milnet, and I
> think arpanet, were already in place in 1982, but once again RAH was
> able to predict plausible future technology and make it work in a
> story.
ARPANET dates back to 1969. Milnet split off in 1983, the same year TCP/IP became the main internet protocol.

--
Regards,

Ed

"Almighty Ruler of the all
Whose power extends to great and small,
Who guides the stars with steadfast law,
Whose least creation fills with awe;
Oh, grant thy mercy and thy grace
To those who venture into space."
  -- Robert A. Heinlein, "Ordeal in Space", 1948

From: "R Oxley" <sagitta@NOSPAM.ricochet.com>

Subject: Re: Friday's trick navel.

Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 6:44 AM

"Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in message news:pan.2003.03.18.18.44.02.145551.4179@thiswelho.com...

> Marjorie Friday Jones/Baldwin/Davidson/Belgium/Bulgrin/Wallgren's
> trick navel pochette was much referred during the whole story. But
> it was never used for anything useful, except as a red herring. Why?
>
> --
> J-V.
In addition to the witty responses elsethread, the answer to your question lies within the story. When she was captured at the beginning of the book, it was mentioned that the bad guys had removed the contents of her bellybutton, and later Boss (or was it Friday herself?) mentioned that a secret that was a little bit broached was like a girl just a little bit pregnant, meaning that the pochette was no longer a secret to the rest of the world, and therefore, no longer a safe place to carry classified materials.

--
Bob

 "Si vis pacem, para bellum"
 ("If you seek peace, prepare [for] war.")

Appius Claudius Caecus

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 8:32 AM

In article <3E72C330.4040600@mindspring.com>,

"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
>
> <big ole snip -- once again no stipulations>
>
> > And finally, I think Kettle Belly is complicit in the great plot to
> > enslave his 'daughter' itself. He doesn't have her lactation ability
> > restored becasue of aesthetic prinicpals: he knows she pregnant, she was
> > inseminated before the beginning of the story. He took money to send her
> > off to be host mother for that heir to the Reign.
>
> 1. The restoration of Miss Friday's functioning nipple rather than the
> use of a prosthetic replacement is at the start of the book and takes
> place in the Chicago Imperium.
>
> 2. Her employment by Sikmaa, Mosby et al. is way past page 200 and takes
> place in the California Confederation (remember they drive up Rodeo
> Drive in the carriage drawn by two bays).
>
[snip the intermediary points]
> 7. When Friday is in Bellingham, WA with Georges,
> she listens to a voice mail wait message about mailing christmas
> packages early and Christmas is "half a year away."
>
> More later?
>
I think we can come up with enough now. You'll teach me to rely on memory before I finish rereading, won't it? Nevertheless I remain convinced of the basic point: Baldwin is knowingly complicit in what finally happens to Friday, his daughter-slave-creation. His puppet.

In the last conversation with Marjorie, ol' two-faced, er, two-canes, the one who extends to spiders professional courtesies, and thereby encourages the development of assassins, seizes on one last chance and tells Friday to memorize a name to be used in a last resort. The old fraud is dying, you see, and this is his final legacy to his bestest puppet.

Whose name? Why that of his mortal enemy, his principal rival: Mosby! In extremis, his beloved Pinnochio is to seek aid from the number one rival puppetmaker. Right into the other lion's den! Now why does that sound familiar? Hey, Joe Greene, just take this mission to assassinate old Mrs. Keithley, and you'll 'neber be forgot' in the minds of your FELLOW MEN! I'm even going to send Gail, my husband hunting sex-object I've aimed at you, along to sit in your lap and keep you happy while you repel those boarders. Remember those editorial cartoons years ago about McNamara, Kissinger, and Nixon making Hamburgers while the Marines fought on at a hill of the same name? Baldwin could give them lessons in culinary skills whipped up to short order.

Then, despite knowing he's about to finally die, the superman, supergenius Baldwin kicks the bucket without having changed his will to reflect changes -- leaving everyone despirate and "hung out" to dry; because along comes corrupt Ms. Wainwright and really fixes their wagons. We can see there should have been another horseback riding accident with her, but wasn't.

What makes Baldwin any different from Robinson Crusoe who, having enslaved and 'saved' Friday from a "fate worse than death" (being a happy doxy may well be the same as being fully eaten), later sells Friday to another slavemaster where she (or he) "will be happy"? Mowgli has problems thinking he's a man; Friday has problems thinking she's a man; and Crusoe's Friday knows he hain't no man, he's jest property!

And all these poor puppets want to be is to be real boys and girls! Thanks, Tubalcane, er, Two-canes, I really needed that last slap in the face, sez Friday. You've reinvented me as an instrument upon which you continue, after your death, to invent music.

Tubal and Jubal and the old man Puppet Master! [Almost as bad as Three Men in a Boat -- and don't forget their dog! -- Friday?] How's following that, Rufo?

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: Friday's trick navel.

Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:19 AM

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:44:43 +0200, R Oxley wrote:

> "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
> message news:pan.2003.03.18.18.44.02.145551.4179@thiswelho.com...
>> Marjorie Friday Jones/Baldwin/Davidson/Belgium/Bulgrin/Wallgren's trick
>> navel pochette was much referred during the whole story. But it was
>> never used for anything useful, except as a red herring. Why?
>>
>> --
>> J-V.
>
>
> In addition to the witty responses elsethread, the answer to your
> question lies within the story. When she was captured at the beginning
> of the book, it was mentioned that the bad guys had removed the contents
> of her bellybutton, and later Boss (or was it Friday herself?) mentioned
> that a secret that was a little bit broached was like a girl just a
> little bit pregnant, meaning that the pochette was no longer a secret to
> the rest of the world, and therefore, no longer a safe place to carry
> classified materials.
>
A reasonable answer, except that it is how Heinlein set it up! Why did he set it up thus?

I think Friday has a void where most of us have a connection to our mother. I think that is where the clue lies.

--
J-V.

From: Dr. Rufo <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_Universe

Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 7:40 PM

David M. Silver wrote:

<another big ole snip>

> I think we can come up with enough now. You'll teach me to rely on
> memory before I finish rereading, won't it? Nevertheless I remain
> convinced of the basic point: Baldwin is knowingly complicit in what
> finally happens to Friday, his daughter-slave-creation. His puppet.
OK, David, Dr. Baldwin "had plans" for Friday. Throughout the book and in the references to the "time before" the book starts, he "had plans." That was his functioning the work. He "controlled the activities" of any more people than just his Friday-puppet. He had many "puppets."

It appears that you perceive this as a "negative" component of his character. Is that correct? If so, why? Bernard Shaw said: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world and the unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is made by the unreasonable man." Dr. Baldwin was clearly "unreasonable."

>
> In the last conversation with Marjorie, ol' two-faced, er, two-canes,
> the one who extends to spiders professional courtesies, and thereby
> encourages the development of assassins, seizes on one last chance and
> tells Friday to memorize a name to be used in a last resort. The old
> fraud is dying, you see, and this is his final legacy to his bestest
> puppet.
Because the man walks on two canes you seem to say he is "two-faced." How about, "balanced" as a better adjective? The two canes keep him from perceiving himself as a "super"-man. In reference to "Gulf," he is one of the members of the order of "Homo Novis" -- "New Man." A lot of emphasis has been placed on the "New" part of this title and very little on the "Man" portion. He was not, in any way, "perfect."

You cite his "encouragement" of assassins as another derogatory personal characteristic. Yet, to make a contemporary reference, isn't it sometimes better to select a "target of opportunity" for the possibility of shortening an otherwise protracted "war." Thus the "need" or "use" of assassins. Dr. Baldwin was not the first to come to this conclusion.

You say that Dr. Baldwin "knew he was dying" and should have prepared better for the "after time." Isn't that a completely understandable "human trait?" That is, to refuse to admit the possibility of one's own immanent death? If he had planned better, would that have made for a better story? I say, not. The "surprise" of his death is what creates the need for the balance of the story, doesn't it? Friday has to start making choices "on her own initiative." Dr. Baldwin tells her in their interview when she is seconded to "staff" work that she should consider out-migration.

	"In the meantime give thought to the day when you will have to shape
your life unassisted. You should leave this planet; for you there is
nothing here. . . you should think about off-planet possibilities not
only in the solar system but elsewhere - planets ranging from extremely
primitive to well developed. . .  Concerning your ex-migration: I
recommend that you not move to the planet Olympia. Otherwise I have no
specific advice other than to migrate."
In those sentences, he tells her just what she will find out from your favorite Loonie-lawyer in the monokini, Gloria Tomosawa. Gloria also supplies the "extra" information that there are funds available for financing this move.
>
> Whose name? Why that of his mortal enemy, his principal rival: Mosby! In
> extremis, his beloved Pinnochio is to seek aid from the number one rival
> puppetmaker. Right into the other lion's den!
Dr. Baldwin says, in their interview following her convalesence/repair work, "Friday, one of your weaknesses is that you lack appropriate conceit."

OF COURSE, he provides the name of Mosby et al. because he has reasons to believe that those persons will get Friday off-planet! There is a great deal of "information-sharing" going on between the various "secret associations" in the novel. He knows Mosby's agenda (as Mosby claims to know Dr. Baldwin's) and trusts Friday to use it to her own benefit. You could say that he is, once again, pulling her strings." SOMEBODY as to do it -- why shouldn't it be someone who "loves" Friday.

By the way, counselor, would Dr. Baldwin's "last letter" to Friday be admissible in court -- as the equivalent of a "death-bed statement?"

And another (rhetorical) question: After the serial interviews conducted by La Wainwright, Anna says, among other things, that Dr. Baldwin had made all his "arrangements" with the "senior partner" of the law firm involved. We find out later, from the lovely Gloria, that "Grandpa Fong" was that person and that Gloria is now the "senior partner." If so, why would she allow La Wainwright to handle the exit interviews? She had a demonstrably bad opinion of Wainwright's legal abilities.

An answer: I suggest that if Mistress Tomosawa had handled the interviews, the remainder of the book would not have had the shape it displays.

<another snip of Dr. Baldwin's "manipulations" -- Gad! Is there no
"statute of imitations" here? [pun intended]>

> What makes Baldwin any different from Robinson Crusoe who, having
> enslaved and 'saved' Friday from a "fate worse than death" (being a
> happy doxy may well be the same as being fully eaten), later sells
> Friday to another slavemaster where she (or he) "will be happy"? Mowgli
> has problems thinking he's a man; Friday has problems thinking she's a
> man; and Crusoe's Friday knows he hain't no man, he's jest property!
>
I stipulate there is no "moral" or "ethical" difference. Crusoe and Baldwin and Geppetto, all and each, "knew better" than, and therefore had the "right," to manipulate their puppets.
> And all these poor puppets want to be is to be real boys and girls!
> Thanks, Tubalcane, er, Two-canes, I really needed that last slap in the
> face, sez Friday. You've reinvented me as an instrument upon which you
> continue, after your death, to invent music.
Now you're going "hermetic" on me, David. "Tubalcain," the first artificer in metal and the person who "invented" music, c'est tres masonique, ne c'est pas?
> Tubal and Jubal and the old man Puppet Master!
Are you referring to the purported "error" in the old Latin rendition of Flavius Josephus where he "mis-assigns" Tubal and Jubal?

Is there a subtlety I am missing in your references to "the first musician" (Tubalcain) and "the ram" (Jubal) and "the first witness" (Andrew, the name of the Old Man in The Puppet Masters)?

Help me with this one, David, please.

> [Almost as bad as Three Men in a Boat -- and don't forget their dog! --
> Friday?]
> How's following that, Rufo?
>
I tried to "follow" as I am able.

Rufo


From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:01 PM

In article <3E7BB112.2070402@mindspring.com>, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
>
> <another big ole snip>
>
> > I think we can come up with enough now. You'll teach me to rely on
> > memory before I finish rereading, won't it? Nevertheless I remain
> > convinced of the basic point: Baldwin is knowingly complicit in what
> > finally happens to Friday, his daughter-slave-creation. His puppet.
>
> 	OK, David, Dr. Baldwin "had plans" for Friday.  Throughout the book and
> in the references to the "time before" the book starts, he "had plans."
>   That was his functioning the work.  He "controlled the activities" of
> any more people than just his Friday-puppet.  He had many "puppets."
>
Just as God "had plans" for the deterministic world he created that gave us all the Candides and one-eyed poxed Panglosses -- to 'splain the works of God to Man, better than either Milton or good Shropshire ale can. All these Panglosses: Dr. Baldwin with his esoteric knowledge -- he knows exactly what's right for the poor ineffectual brown monkeys talking their 'monkey talk,' he's even had supergeniuses invent speedtalk so they can really shake your world: the nova bomb that Mrs. Keithley got her hands on was invented by Baldwin's men on Luna to "prove" it couldn't be done -- heh! Now it's time for Baldwin's organization of pink monkeys to save the world by a little wet work. The real puppet master: Andrew, your first witness, has this unaccountable superspy agency, and it too does the wet work necessary to "save the world" when called upon, or when Andrew deems it expedient. And Jubal may be the worst of them all: that floating head who came before the Lord Michael, whose first major lesson to his circle was to send a few of the more inept brown monkeys back to the end of the line. Wet work, Inc.
> It appears that you perceive this as a "negative" component of his
> character.  Is that correct?  If so, why?  Bernard Shaw said: "The
> reasonable man adapts himself to the world and the unreasonable man
> adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is made by the
> unreasonable man." Dr. Baldwin was clearly "unreasonable."
>
Sift through the arguments Baldwin make to Greene in the Temptation of "Joe" scene in the dungeon below his headquarters while the search goes on upstairs. They sound like the underpinings of the Third Reich to me: "Look here, Eichman, this is what we do. And why. Are you with us, or agin' us?"

Does it change in _Friday_? Well, maybe, but how so?

> >
> > In the last conversation with Marjorie, ol' two-faced, er, two-canes,
> > the one who extends to spiders professional courtesies, and thereby
> > encourages the development of assassins, seizes on one last chance and
> > tells Friday to memorize a name to be used in a last resort. The old
> > fraud is dying, you see, and this is his final legacy to his bestest
> > puppet.
>
> 	Because the man walks on two canes you seem to say he is "two-faced."
No, I say he's as crippled as Pangloss's half-blind, poxed, noseless, and hanged body was: still trying at the end to explain this is the 'best of all possible worlds' but silenced, from time to time, by the admonitition to "tend our garden." And I never viewed Baldwin (I "like" the character as much as Heinlein did, don't get me wrong) ever doing an undevious act. He cannot help trying to play God. It's burnt in his bones -- over the centuries he's lived -- consider that Joe Greene concludes he was around more than a century ago when he meets Baldwin as a vital, unblind, and physically fit to fight and be his own operative in "Gulf." How old exactly is this Hartley M. "Kettle Belly" Baldwin? As old as ol' Buddy Boy, Lazarus? That scene where Baldwin squats and walks under the three foot high beam in the jail to kill the guard. Try that!

I might have been able to do it when I was twenty-three and still wearing a green suit: maybe. Maybe that's why "Joe" is named "Green," from the Green Machine. But Joe's also cannon fodder, isn't he? And Kettle Belly loves Joe just as much as God loves all his children, Crusoe loves Friday, and Geppetto loves Pinnoccio. But when the Lord sends you into the Lion's Den, or has you drop in to explain the writing on the wall, it's time to GO! Bye, Joe. Bye, Gail.

> How about, "balanced" as a better adjective?  The two canes keep him
> from perceiving himself as a "super"-man.  In reference to "Gulf," he is
> one of the members of the order of "Homo Novis" -- "New Man." A lot of
> emphasis has been placed on the "New" part of this title and very little
> on the "Man" portion. He was not, in any way, "perfect."
>
Hey, it was a rush job. Only six days to build it. Out there in a remote development. How can you expect perfection. He fulfilled all the prophesies, didn't he?
> 	You cite his "encouragement" of assassins as another derogatory
> personal characteristic. Yet, to make a contemporary reference, isn't it
> sometimes better to select a "target of opportunity" for the possibility
> of shortening an otherwise protracted "war." Thus the "need" or "use" of
> assassins. Dr. Baldwin was not the first to come to this conclusion.
>
Nor the first to conclude that he was omniscient, omnipotent, and that after he was gone, it was all going to vanish in a bubble. Bye, Joe. Bye, Gail. Good luck, Marjorie.
> 	You say that Dr. Baldwin "knew he was dying" and should have prepared
> better for the "after time."
I guess that means Baldwin was dragged down into "monkey-think," eh? Failed the final pink monkey test -- darn ... well, back to the test tubes and knives to develop Homo Novis Secundum.
> Isn't that a completely understandable
> "human trait?"
My point, not yours. Or is it?
> That is, to refuse to admit the possibility of one's own
> imm[i]nent death? If he had planned better, would that have made for a
> better story? I say, not. The "surprise" of his death is what  creates
> the need for the balance of the story, doesn't it?  Friday has to start
> making choices "on her own initiative." Dr. Baldwin tells her in their
> interview when she is seconded to "staff" work that she should consider
> out-migration.
> 	"In the meantime give thought to the day when you will have to shape
> your life unassisted. You should leave this planet; for you there is
> nothing here. . . you should think about off-planet possibilities not
> only in the solar system but elsewhere - planets ranging from extremely
> primitive to well developed. . .  Concerning your ex-migration: I
> recommend that you not move to the planet Olympia. Otherwise I have no
> specific advice other than to migrate."
> [snip]
As Ginny noted, RAH always did want to get back into the Baldwin character. Maybe we could look at the two stories as "The Man Who Learns a Lesson," -- 'Kettle Belly' Baldwin, who was once a God but became a Man, and unlike Pangloss actually did ultimately realize that this is not "the best of all possible worlds," and that "saving it" was for wingnuts.

More later, maybe after the chat tomorrow, Saturday, 5 to 8 PM, EST (2 to 5 PM, your time, Rufo), if you join us ...

> >
> > Whose name? Why that of his mortal enemy, his principal rival: Mosby! In
> > extremis, his beloved Pinnochio is to seek aid from the number one rival
> > puppetmaker. Right into the other lion's den!
>
> 		Dr. Baldwin says, in their interview following her convalesence/repair
> work, "Friday, one of your weaknesses is that you lack appropriate
> conceit."
> 	OF COURSE, he provides the name of Mosby et al. because he has reasons
> to believe that those persons will get Friday off-planet!  There is a
> great deal of "information-sharing" going on between the various "secret
> associations" in the novel. He knows Mosby's agenda (as Mosby claims to
> know Dr. Baldwin's) and trusts Friday to use it to her own benefit.  You
> could say that he is, once again, pulling her strings." SOMEBODY as to
> do it -- why shouldn't it be someone who "loves" Friday.
> 	By the way, counselor, would Dr. Baldwin's "last letter" to Friday be
> admissible in court -- as the equivalent of a "death-bed statement?"
> 	And another (rhetorical) question: After the serial interviews
> conducted by La Wainwright, Anna says, among other things, that Dr.
> Baldwin had made all his "arrangements" with the "senior partner" of the
> law firm involved.  We find out later, from the lovely Gloria, that
> "Grandpa Fong" was that person and that Gloria is now the "senior
> partner." If so, why would she allow La Wainwright to handle the exit
> interviews? She had a demonstrably bad opinion of Wainwright's legal
> abilities.
> 	An answer: I suggest that if Mistress Tomosawa had handled the
> interviews, the remainder of the book would not have had the shape it
> displays.
>
> <another snip of Dr. Baldwin's "manipulations" -- Gad! Is there no
> "statute of imitations" here? [pun intended]>
>
> > What makes Baldwin any different from Robinson Crusoe who, having
> > enslaved and 'saved' Friday from a "fate worse than death" (being a
> > happy doxy may well be the same as being fully eaten), later sells
> > Friday to another slavemaster where she (or he) "will be happy"? Mowgli
> > has problems thinking he's a man; Friday has problems thinking she's a
> > man; and Crusoe's Friday knows he hain't no man, he's jest property!
> >
> 	I stipulate there is no "moral" or "ethical" difference. Crusoe and
> Baldwin and Geppetto, all and each, "knew better" than, and therefore
> had the "right," to manipulate their puppets.
>
> > And all these poor puppets want to be is to be real boys and girls!
> > Thanks, Tubalcane, er, Two-canes, I really needed that last slap in the
> > face, sez Friday. You've reinvented me as an instrument upon which you
> > continue, after your death, to invent music.
>
> 	Now you're going "hermetic" on me, David. "Tubalcain," the first
> artificer in metal and the person who "invented" music, c'est tres
> masonique, ne c'est pas?
>
> > Tubal and Jubal and the old man Puppet Master!
> 	Are you referring to the purported "error" in the old Latin rendition
> of Flavius Josephus where he "mis-assigns" Tubal and Jubal?
> 	Is there a subtlety I am missing in your references to "the first
> musician" (Tubalcain) and "the ram" (Jubal) and "the first witness"
> (Andrew, the name of the Old Man in The Puppet Masters)?
> 	Help me with this one, David, please.
>
> > [Almost as bad as Three Men in a Boat -- and don't forget their dog! --
> > Friday?]
> > How's following that, Rufo?
> >
> 	I tried to "follow" as I am able.
>
> Rufo
>

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Reading Group -- 3/20-22/03 meeting The "Gulf"-_Friday_ Universe

Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:17 PM

In article <ag.plusone-71AD69.19012321032003@news.fu-berlin.de>, "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> In article <3E7BB112.2070402@mindspring.com>,
>  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > David M. Silver wrote:
> >
[und snips]
> > 	I stipulate there is no "moral" or "ethical" difference. Crusoe and
> > Baldwin and Geppetto, all and each, "knew better" than, and therefore
> > had the "right," to manipulate their puppets.
> >
Stipulation received. Or, as a certain pig-farmer put it, "We all finally, kid, get what's coming to us."
> > > And all these poor puppets want to be is to be real boys and girls!
> > > Thanks, Tubalcane, er, Two-canes, I really needed that last slap in the
> > > face, sez Friday. You've reinvented me as an instrument upon which you
> > > continue, after your death, to invent music.
> >
> > 	Now you're going "hermetic" on me, David. "Tubalcain," the first
> > artificer in metal and the person who "invented" music, c'est tres
> > masonique, ne c'est pas?
> >
"Oui, oui," said the fifth little piggie, and ran all the way home.
> > > Tubal and Jubal and the old man Puppet Master!
> > 	Are you referring to the purported "error" in the old Latin rendition
> > of Flavius Josephus where he "mis-assigns" Tubal and Jubal?
> > 	Is there a subtlety I am missing in your references to "the first
> > musician" (Tubalcain) and "the ram" (Jubal) and "the first witness"
> > (Andrew, the name of the Old Man in The Puppet Masters)?
> > 	Help me with this one, David, please.
> >
Well, I did repeat the question; and LN replied "D'oh!"
> > > [Almost as bad as Three Men in a Boat -- and don't forget their dog! --
> > > Friday?]
> > > How's following that, Rufo?
> > >
> > 	I tried to "follow" as I am able.
> >
> > Rufo
> >
Don't forget to bring the can-opener to the chat, Saturday, Rufo. ;-)
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: ward <wdg3rd@comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Friday's trick navel.

Date: Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:43 AM

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:44:43 +0200, R Oxley wrote:

>> "Jussi-Ville Heiskanen" <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote in
>> message news:pan.2003.03.18.18.44.02.145551.4179@thiswelho.com...

>>> Marjorie Friday Jones/Baldwin/Davidson/Belgium/Bulgrin/Wallgren's trick
>>> navel pochette was much referred during the whole story. But it was
>>> never used for anything useful, except as a red herring. Why?

>> In addition to the witty responses elsethread, the answer to your
>> question lies within the story. When she was captured at the beginning
>> of the book, it was mentioned that the bad guys had removed the contents
>> of her bellybutton, and later Boss (or was it Friday herself?) mentioned
>> that a secret that was a little bit broached was like a girl just a
>> little bit pregnant, meaning that the pochette was no longer a secret to
>> the rest of the world, and therefore, no longer a safe place to carry
>> classified materials.

> A reasonable answer, except that it is how Heinlein set it up!
> Why did he set it up thus?
>
> I think Friday has a void where most of us have a connection to our
> mother. I think that is where the clue lies.
While Bob's explanation fully concurs with mine as to the plot aspects of the story, I sort of like your subliminal bit there. RAH certainly did that sort of thing a few times. Time to reread it again with that in mind (the agonies of scholarship). :-)}
--
Ward Griffiths                                  wdg3rd@comcast.net

What kind of online content will people pay for?  Well, there's porn.
And dating sites. And Weightwatchers.  The hopeless, the hopeful, and
those in-between.                       Reason Online, 3/11/2003

From: Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Watching X-men with Gulf/Friday

Date: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:54 AM

Odd title for the thread, but I had some thoughts due to the X-Men movie last night.

In "Gulf", KettleBelly's organization is on a track to benignly guide homo sapiens under homo novis. They do not advertise themselves, but they are there, doing good deeds.

By _Friday_, Baldwin is digusted with the "supermen". He leaves it rigged to keep Friday from immigrating to Olympia.

My thought, brought on by watching Magneto verbally baiting Professor Xavier, was that a schism occurred. The supermen, or some, decided they did not want a quiet position. Somehow, KettleBelly managed to persuade/force/trick these ones into leabing Earth for a fresh start away from pesky homo sapiens.

Feasible?

Stephanie
"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: DocJam00 <docjam00@aol.com>

Subject: Re: Watching X-men with Gulf/Friday

Date: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:49 PM

It has become quite clear to me as I've begun researching/rereading the sf of the forties and fifties that the comic book superhero was largely created by sf fans, and sf readers.

The whole mutant X-Men comic in particular is heavily influenced by the obsession with mutants that one finds in the works of Van Vogt, Sturgeon, and others -- including Heinlein, of course.

The phrase "homo superior" was used quite often, long before Stan Lee and Chris Claremont did their runs as writers.

Robert James


[Editor's Note:] The following posts were taken from the related thread called _Gulf And The Howards_
From: Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:02 PM

Okay, found one point that sticks in my craw again.

Both the Howards and the supermen of "Gulf" are conserving the genes that set them apart to themselves. I seem to recall a discussion of eugenics on this board some many moons ago. Does anyone have an informed guess as to why RAH chose to take the tack of breeding like to like? Did he ever, in his writings, take the opposite tack of spreading the superior genes out? In David Palmer's Emergence, he took the tack that the superior genes of his hero would breed true over homo sapiens, due to its survival enhancement, but even there, they gravitated like to like.

Any takers?

Stephanie
"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:20 PM

In article <20030314170229.22366.00000063@mb-ms.aol.com>,

merfilly27@aol.comspamkill (Stephanie) wrote:

> Okay, found one point that sticks in my craw again.
>
> Both the Howards and the supermen of "Gulf" are conserving the genes that
> set
> them apart to themselves.  I seem to recall a discussion of eugenics on
> this
> board some many moons ago.  Does anyone have an informed guess as to why
> RAH
> chose to take the tack of breeding like to like?  Did he ever, in his
> writings,
> take the opposite tack of spreading the superior genes out? 
I don't know how in-depth his knowledge of genetics was, ignoring that genetics weren't all that well understood.

But if the desirable genes were recessive, breeding like to like is, in fact, the way to increase the population incidence of people with that genotype. At some point, you might create a sufficient population density that a given union is likely to produce, or at least carry, the desired trait.

vIf the desired genes were dominant, yes, "spreading" the genes would work.

Superiority/inferiority of a mutation doesn't necessarily correlate to whether the gene is dominant or recessive. Indeed, the superiority can be relative. Sickle cell trait, for example, is protective against malaria even when only one gene is present. When both genes are present, you get clinical sickle cell anemia. Depending on the prevalence of malaria, conserving the "bad gene" at the risk of giving some people a severe illness may be beneficial to the larger population.

>In David Palmer's
> Emergence, he took the tack that the superior genes of his hero would
> breed
> true over homo sapiens, due to its survival enhancement, but even there,
> they
> gravitated like to like.
Given the data, not a whole lot to judge if this makes biological sense.
From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:23 PM

On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 00:02:29 +0200, Stephanie wrote:

> Okay, found one point that sticks in my craw again.
>
> Both the Howards and the supermen of "Gulf" are conserving the genes
> that set them apart to themselves.  I seem to recall a discussion of
> eugenics on this board some many moons ago.  Does anyone have an
> informed guess as to why RAH chose to take the tack of breeding like to
> like?  Did he ever, in his writings, take the opposite tack of spreading
> the superior genes out?  In David Palmer's Emergence, he took the tack
> that the superior genes of his hero would breed true over homo sapiens,
> due to its survival enhancement, but even there, they gravitated like to
> like.
>
> Any takers?
I think your basic point will stand whatever anyone posts in opposition. That said, I do seem to recall that Lazarus Long appeared to consider himself progenitor to a significant fraction of all living humans. That is not equivalent to purposefully spreading the genes out, but there it is, nevertheless...
--
J-V.

From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:54 PM

In article <pan.2003.03.15.00.23.19.575528.27215@thiswelho.com>,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <jussi-ville.heiskanen@thiswelho.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 00:02:29 +0200, Stephanie wrote:
>
> > Okay, found one point that sticks in my craw again.
> >
> > Both the Howards and the supermen of "Gulf" are conserving the genes
> > that set them apart to themselves.  I seem to recall a discussion of
> > eugenics on this board some many moons ago.  Does anyone have an
> > informed guess as to why RAH chose to take the tack of breeding like to
> > like?  Did he ever, in his writings, take the opposite tack of spreading
> > the superior genes out?  In David Palmer's Emergence, he took the tack
> > that the superior genes of his hero would breed true over homo sapiens,
> > due to its survival enhancement, but even there, they gravitated like to
> > like.
> >
> > Any takers?
>
> I think your basic point will stand whatever anyone posts in
> opposition. That said, I do seem to recall that Lazarus Long
> appeared to consider himself progenitor to a significant
> fraction of all living humans. That is not equivalent to
> purposefully spreading the genes out, but there it is,
> nevertheless...
That could hold statistically even if the "superior" genes were recessive. Genetic conservation is just not directly correlated with optimal spread strategies. Lazarus could have had a very inefficient spread system that worked out over many generations.
From: Ogden Johnson III <oj3@cpcug.org>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:27 AM

merfilly27@aol.comspamkill (Stephanie) wrote:

>Okay, found one point that sticks in my craw again.
>
>Both the Howards and the supermen of "Gulf" are conserving the genes that set
>them apart to themselves.  I seem to recall a discussion of eugenics on this
>board some many moons ago.  Does anyone have an informed guess as to why RAH
>chose to take the tack of breeding like to like?  Did he ever, in his writings,
>take the opposite tack of spreading the superior genes out?  In David Palmer's
>Emergence, he took the tack that the superior genes of his hero would breed
>true over homo sapiens, due to its survival enhancement, but even there, they
>gravitated like to like.
>
>Any takers?
Perhaps he felt Cyril M. Kornbluth had preempted that story possibility with his "The Marching Morons".

OJ III


From: David Wright <dwrighsr@alltel.net>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:36 AM

"Stephanie" <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill> wrote in message news:20030314170229.22366.00000063@mb-ms.aol.com...

> Okay, found one point that sticks in my craw again.
>
> Both the Howards and the supermen of "Gulf" are conserving the genes that set
> them apart to themselves.  I seem to recall a discussion of eugenics on this
> board some many moons ago.  Does anyone have an informed guess as to why RAH
> chose to take the tack of breeding like to like?  Did he ever, in his writings,
> take the opposite tack of spreading the superior genes out?  In David Palmer's
> Emergence, he took the tack that the superior genes of his hero would breed
> true over homo sapiens, due to its survival enhancement, but even there, they
> gravitated like to like.
>
I believe that this was discussed in a discussion between Hamilton Felix and Mordan Claude. As I recall it, the method there was precisely to 'conserve genes' by eventually spreading them to the entire race, rather than to a separate group.

This was in _Beyond This Horizon_

David Wright


From: Dehede011 <dehede011@aol.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 11:19 AM

Stephanie,

I am going to pass on your question: "Does anyone have an informed guess as to why RAH chose to take the tack of breeding like to like?"

I first read Gulf in 1970 or 71. I can't count the number of times I have read it since. IMHO Gulf is one of RAH's most mystifying stories.

Consider Homo Novus -- RAH tells us that Homo Novus is extremely rare. Why? What is it about HN that makes him rare? Is it IQ? In my reading of the story it appears that the IQ required is high but not impossibly so. In the absence of a reliable marker from Heinlein I finally used the old reliable SWAG method and assumed the top 10% in IQ.

But, Heinlein makes it plain the he wasn't just talking about IQ. I believe he leaves reliable indications that HN would be a very small portion of the people with sufficient intelligence.

I believe he indicates that the distinction was in the high IQ types being able to think clearly and sanely under pressure. To help make this distinction I think of HN as being a high IQ person that has learned to use General Semantics as Heinlein obviously had. <G>

However I believe Heinlein illustrates in Gulf that his definition goes further than that. If you either read Ouspenski, Gurdjieff, (or any number of others) or if you look at the training methods of our leading officer training academies they take an approach Ouspensky called the Fourth Way.

Briefly the fourth way says that instead of doing as most esoteric schools do and train the mind, body, or heart we should take another option and train to use all three -- that is the 4th way. If you notice West Point or Annapolis they attempt to do this. So did Navy Flight School at the time I was a Cadet. Sometimes they are even successful in producing a well rounded person capable in all three areas. <G>

If you read the story closely the hero also operates well in all three areas. He is smart, he is athletic and he relates well to people. So do the other HN.

If you notice Gail, Joe, Kettlebelly and presumably the other HN all are very conscious of Homo Sap and the need to treat HS with love & dignity.

Let me wind this up by saying I have spent a lot of time puzzling out what RAH was trying to say in Gulf -- I still have more questions than answers.

Dehede

BTW, I have corresponded with both RAH and Ginny on this subject when they were alive. RAH didn'r respond at all that I remember, Ginny passed Gulf off more or less as recorded. Campbell asked RAH to write a superman story and Gulf was the answer. My guess is that RAH was being RAH when he wrote Gulf. He reached inside to all he knew, did a job of speculation intended to provide us with questions not answers.

Dave Silver's theory still rules -- if you only see one or two levels in RAH, you have probably missed something.


From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:35 PM

In article <20030315111921.13111.00000043@mb-mg.aol.com>,

dehede011@aol.com (Dehede011) wrote:

> Stephanie,
>      I am going to pass on your question: "Does anyone have an informed
>      guess
> as to why RAH chose to take the tack of breeding like to like?"
>      I first read Gulf in 1970 or 71.  I can't count the number of times
>      I have
> read it since.  IMHO Gulf is one of RAH's most mystifying stories. 
>      Consider Homo Novus -- RAH tells us that Homo Novus is extremely
>      rare.
> Why?  What is it about HN that makes him rare?  Is it IQ?  In my reading
> of the
> story it appears that the IQ required is high but not impossibly so.  In
> the
> absence of a reliable marker from Heinlein I finally used the old
> reliable SWAG
> method and assumed the top 10% in IQ. 
We've now established that classical IQ, as measured by, say, Binet or Terman, has limitations. The jury remains out if there is a systematic way to testing for multiple intelligence quotients.
>      But, Heinlein makes it plain the he wasn't just talking about IQ.  I
> believe he leaves reliable indications that HN would be a very small
> portion of
> the people with sufficient intelligence.
>      I believe he indicates that the distinction was in the high IQ types
>      being
> able to think clearly and sanely under pressure.  To help make this
> distinction
> I think of HN as being a high IQ person that has learned to use General
> Semantics as Heinlein obviously had.  <G>
>      However I believe Heinlein illustrates in Gulf that his definition
>      goes
> further than that.  If you either read Ouspenski, Gurdjieff, (or any
> number of
> others) or if you look at the training methods of our leading officer
> training
> academies they take an approach Ouspensky called the Fourth Way.
Agreed. FYI, if you want to bring this up to a more mainstream educator, they are more likely to recognize it if you speak of it as founded in the Gestalt theories of Fritz Perls, and then formalized in what is variously called the experiential (or process) learning model starting at the National Training Laboratories in 1947.
>      Briefly the fourth way says that instead of doing as most esoteric
>      schools
> do and train the mind, body, or heart we should take another option and
> train
> to use all three -- that is the 4th way.  If you notice West Point or
> Annapolis
> they attempt to do this.  So did Navy Flight School at the time I was a
> Cadet.
> Sometimes they are even successful in producing a well rounded person
> capable
> in all three areas. <G>
Yet another thing in Gulf, which comes up to some extent in the military academies but even more in special operations troop selection, is the ability to exercise the intelligences and skill under extreme stress. There's a lot that can be questioned on the insistence of many academic surgeons as 100-120 hour weeks being a necessary part of making a surgeon, but there's an element of truth there as well---there need to be safeguards so the learner's fatigue doesn't kill people.
>      If you read the story closely the hero also operates well in all
>      three
> areas.  He is smart, he is athletic and he relates well to people.  So do
> the
> other HN.
Key factor: under stress and not under stress.
>      If you notice Gail, Joe, Kettlebelly and presumably the other HN all
>      are
> very conscious of Homo Sap and the need to treat HS with love & dignity.
>      Let me wind this up by saying I have spent a lot of time puzzling
>      out what
> RAH was trying to say in Gulf -- I still have more questions than
> answers.
In addition to the better understood intelligences, there was an ethical one that appeared in various ways outside the Kettle Belly universe. To some extent, I'd be tempted to throw in Prof's concept of rational anarchism. A better reference...

I don't have a copy of Beyond this Horizon handy, and I'm blanking on the name of Monroe-Alpha's love interest (Marian?). In particular, I'm thinking of Monroe-Alpha's discovery that she wasn't Control Natural, but Experimental. Again not remembering the precise wording, but the Planners were trying to conserve something in her genome, along the lines of "a little more human" -- empathetic intelligence?


From: Kay Archer <abuse@127.0.0.1>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:48 PM

>
> I don't have a copy of Beyond this Horizon handy, and I'm blanking on
> the name of Monroe-Alpha's love interest (Marian?).  In particular, I'm
> thinking of Monroe-Alpha's discovery that she wasn't Control Natural,
> but Experimental.  Again not remembering the precise wording, but the
> Planners were trying to conserve something in her genome, along the
> lines of "a little more human" -- empathetic intelligence?
Your quote, sir.:
"You would marry a control natural?"

"Why not?" He met the issue bravely, even casually.
Why not? Well, Roman citizens, proud of their patrician Latin blood, could have told him. The white aristocracy of the Old South could have, in their little day, explained to him in detail why not. "Aryan" race-myth apologists could have defined the reasons. Of course, in each case the persons giving the reasons would have had a different "race" in mind when explaining the obscene horror he contemplated committing, but their reasons would have been the same. Even Johnson-Smith Estaire could have explained to him "Why not"-and she would most certainly cut him off her list for stooping to such an alliance. After all, kings and emperors have lost their thrones for lesser miscegenations.
"That's all I wanted to know," she said. "Come here, Clifford."
He came, a little mystified. She raised her left arm; he read the little figures tattooed there. The registration number was-no matter. But the classification letter was neither the "B" of a basic type, such as he bore, nor the "C" of a control natural. It was X-experimental.

She told him about it a little later. Her hyper-dexter great-grandparents had both been control naturals. "Of course it shows a little," she said. "I do catch colds, if I don't take my pills. And sometimes I forget. I'm a sloppy person, Clifford." A child of these two, her dexter grandfather, had been identified, rather late in life, as a mutation, probably favorable-almost certainly favorable. His mutation was no gross matter, easily recognized, but was subtle and subliminal. It had to do with emotional stability. Perhaps it would be easiest to say that he was more civilized than any man can be expected to be. Naturally, an attempt was made to conserve the mutation. She was one of the conservators.


From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:59 PM

In article <v76ppnc62fv4ff@corp.supernews.com>,

"Kay Archer" <abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote:

Thanks much!


From: Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 1:46 PM

Thanks!

I got some good thoughts out of the replies to the initial thrust. Now, having read Friday last night immediately upon finishing Gulf, I believe I'll go cut bait in a new thread.

Stephanie
"The age of Aquarius, indeed!"---LaCroix, Forever Knight

From: Dehede011 <dehede011@aol.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:02 PM

Howard,

You made a very interesting comment: "We've now established that classical IQ, as measured by, say, Binet or Terman, has limitations. The jury remains out if there is a systematic way to testing for multiple intelligence quotients."

I believe the classical IQ test has had a recognized limitation among psychometricians for years. Basically they seem to say that IQ is only one measure and while highly indicative when applied to numbers of people it is hardly indicative when applied to a single individual. On the other hand the little I have read among the psychometricians about multiple intelligence quotients indicates that they find each factor in the MIQ correlates to IQ or is indicative of something like athletic ability. However I do understand that MIQ is the darling of the education establishment. If you are a psychometrician I would love to hear your comments.

As to Homo Novis as set forth in Gulf lately I am coming to a radical view. I am wondering if HN is all that rare. What if RAH recognized himself as HN (I believe he was) and recognized that many of his friends and associates were also.

There is a syndrome known as the Imposters Syndrome. Repeatedly when highly intelligent people are informed of their high intelligence they react by going into denial. Examination has found they deny because they feel like an imposter. After all any highly intelligent person feels quite normal inside themselves and are extremely aware of their personal short comings.

My radical idea is that RAH became aware of his own HN statis, recognized that many of the characters he was interested in writing about were HN. In other words the idea of HN became so commonplace to him that he quit setting it on a pedestal.

But he never walked away from HN completely. Friday, Two Canes, Maureen Johnson and any number of others were described as but not labeled as HN.

Now, please let me divert to something else that you said. You talked about some of the elite forces in our military testing to see if candidates could think under high pressure. Can you give me a little more on that subject?

Dehede


From: Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:09 PM

In article <20030315200253.13146.00000060@mb-mg.aol.com>,

dehede011@aol.com (Dehede011) wrote:

> Howard,
>      You made a very interesting comment: "We've now established that
>      classical
> IQ, as measured by, say, Binet or Terman, has limitations.  The jury
> remains
> out if there is a systematic way to testing for multiple intelligence
> quotients."
>      I believe the classical IQ test has had a recognized limitation
>      among
> psychometricians for years.  Basically they seem to say that IQ is only
> one
> measure and while highly indicative when applied to numbers of people it
> is
> hardly indicative when applied to a single individual.  On the other hand
> the
> little I have read among the psychometricians about multiple intelligence
> quotients indicates that they find each factor in the MIQ correlates to
> IQ or
> is indicative of something like athletic ability.  However I do
> understand that
> MIQ is the darling of the education establishment.  If you are a
> psychometrician I would love to hear your comments.
Neither a psychometrician, nor do I play one on TV. Mind you, I really should share some of the stories due to my growing in a house full of psychometric testing manuals, my mother's regrettable tendency to volunteer me for research studies, and the havoc I would wreak on the psychometricians and projective psychologists. Shall we say one of their assuptions is that the client doesn't know how the test is designed -- especially when the client is of teen years? Bwahahaa...

Certainly, not all "IQ" tests are equal. First, consider the difference between the basic paper multiple-choice tests and those multifactorial ones like the WISC and WAIS that must be administered on an individual basis. As a child, I typically would do things like score on the 60th percentile with a multiple choice test administered in a group classroom setting, but high 90s when I took the same test (or a different edition) in a quiet office. Never took many WISC's after about age 8 or so, when they started using the WAIS.

WISC/WAIS are better, but certainly have limits. I never failed to get perfect scores on vocabulary/general information, so you're really skewing the response not to take those scales to the level of failure, if they are being averaged with the other scales. I'm not too good at digit recall.

An extremely intelligent friend took the WISC, including the timed tests of pegs into appropriately shaped holes. IIRC, the psychologist gave him some sort of time target--let's say 3 minutes--but he had every hole filled well under a minute. Inquiring "what does that show," the psychologist, her muscles straining to get the square peg out of the round hole, muttered "it proves you're very strong."

>      As to Homo Novis as set forth in Gulf lately I am coming to a
>      radical
> view.  I am wondering if HN is all that rare.  What if RAH recognized
> himself
> as HN (I believe he was) and recognized that many of his friends and
> associates
> were also.
>      There is a syndrome known as the Imposters Syndrome.  Repeatedly
>      when
> highly intelligent people are informed of their high intelligence they
> react by
> going into denial.  Examination has found they deny because they feel
> like an
> imposter.  After all any highly intelligent person feels quite normal
> inside
> themselves and are extremely aware of their personal short comings.
I don't know if this fits at all, but I am in the most desperate financial, and quite possibly emotional, crisis of my life. A large part of this is trying to work with my ex-wife to get some very badly drafted divorce documents repurposed so that refinancing and such can help both of us.

My first wife is attempting to mediate, and is generally a pretty good mediator. I keep proposing things that I honestly believe are as fair as can be, recognize individual needs, and are as win-win as possible. But, repeatedly, the attempt is shattered either because she doesn't want to give up some documentary "control" -- control that objectively means no one will get ANY money. Alternatively, warm gestures are received with total unpredictability. I may say something that lubricates the discussion.

Now, ex#2 is in a wheelchair. I shall stipulate that she has very real neurological disease, and I also believe it's not well managed. She knows of both these positions. A day or so ago, I felt inspired and awed about Christopher Reeve's recent successes that look like he actually may become respirator-independent. I'll make no bones about my crying hard enough not to be able to speak, again and again looking at him as a man that does not know the meaning of quitting.

And I shared a link about this to ex#2, with the total intent of sharing something very meaningful to me, and that perhaps might be inspirational to her. The feedback I received was that it was treated as an insult, a slap at her saying she was totally responsible for her disability. That was the farthest thing from my mind.

So I don't know if I'm feeling Impostor Syndrome, or something else. I know 'm feeling overwhelmed when I make my best faith overtures to someone I once loved and still don't hate, and get vitriolic responses to innocent suggestions I make -- or even references to documentary evidence that don't agree with her preconceptions. My mental state is very weird -- in one respect, I have all manner of things to look forward to and that can motivate me, but I also have a crushing feeling that I am in serious danger of being penniless and homeless -- where, with a rational approach, I could be (and she could be) in above-average lifestyles.

>      But he never walked away from HN completely.  Friday, Two Canes,
>      Maureen
> Johnson and any number of others were described as but not labeled as HN.
Again, I don't know how it fits, but I've always thought in Asa Hunter terms of some of my professional mentors, such as Carl Hammer and Grace Hopper. To me, it's the most natural thing in the world to do everything I can to advance the careers of people working for me, my students, etc. I've published four professional books so far, not particularly to get rich, but to "pay forward" some of the things I have learned.

Is it that HN will take these freely given gifts, and, in turn, pay them forward? What is it about the people that rein in skills because someone could threaten their rice bowl, or take a know-nothing attitude that they cannot improve.

>      Now, please let me divert to something else that you said.  You
>      talked
> about some of the elite forces in our military testing to see if
> candidates
> could think under high pressure.  Can you give me a little more on that
> subject?
Think and perform. There's a wide range of literature, as well as things ranging from popular entertainment to documentaries. One of the early milestones was the publication, post WWII of the OSS Manual, "Assessment of Men," about their program for evaluating the skills of someone about to go behind enemy lines. An easier-to-get and incredibly funny personal account of this is Roger Hall's _You're Stepping on my Cloak and Dagger_.

The principles apply in different ways. There are any number of popular books available about the evolution of stress testing in UDT/frogmen/SEALs. A well-known approach today is the "Hell Week" component of the SEAL BUD/S basic course, in which candidates go through a week of physical and emotional harrassment, with sleep deprivation. The general evaluation is that unless someone can learn to compartment physical discomfort from their general consciousness, and focus completely on their objective, they will fail. The SEALS have tried to identify psychometric predictors, but they still come back to the performance testing and tremendous emphasis on unit cohesion. One of their prides is that a SEAL has _never_ been left behind on a combat mission.

The British Special Air Service selection has many similarities, and allegedly is the basis for US Delta Force selection. While the SAS selection is extremely demanding physically, it isn't quite as much of a pure physical endurance test as Hell Week. One of the features of SAS/Delta is dealing with psychological ambiguity. Candidates might be put on a distance run, told that there is a pass-fail time, but deliberately are not told the time -- so they have no real way to pace themselves. There are other mental pressures -- they may get to an apparent finish point, relax briefly, and then be told the cadre has decided they need to go another ten miles. During the runs, they may be suddenly pulled out by cadre and interrogated about situations to which there is no good way out "you are on a behind-the-lines patrol and you are discovered by a little girl. Do you kill her, given you have high certainty she will alert overwhelming forces if you let her go? She will slow you down if you take her along." This is _not_ a covert message saying "kill her," because they might be simultaneously be grilled about the laws of land warfare, and also asked to confront the personal morality involved.

Yet another aspect comes up in fighter combat training (Navy Top Gun, Air Force Red Flag), where every attempt is made to put pilots through the same sort of combat stress as they will encounter in the real world. There's pretty strong statistical evidence that if you can get a pilot through five combat engagements, they are apt to succeed. Early implementation of this realistic training resulted in massive improvements in combat kill ratios.

Sorry - I should give you some references. A few things off the top of

my head:  Douglas Waller, The Commandos.
          Charlie Beckwith, Delta Force
          Roy Bohm, First Seal
          Aaron Bank's history of special forces -- don't remember the
          exact title
Lots more around but I'll have to go to the shelves.
From: bookman <Thebookman@kc.rr.NULL.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:50 AM

"Howard Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote in message news:hcb-9CF0B0.21090015032003@text.giganews.com...

> I don't know if this fits at all, but I am in the most desperate
> financial, and quite possibly emotional, crisis of my life.  A large
> part of this is trying to work with my ex-wife to get some very badly
> drafted divorce documents repurposed so that refinancing and such can
> help both of us.
Howard, I dunno if it is meaningful, but you will not starve if you can get to KC. Shit, get close, and I will come getcha, and you can swing your job hunt from here.

Maybe you got better offers, but you won't starve, Bud.

Regards,

--
Rusty the bookman

Minion of Phil #0001
You don't understand the power of the insufficiently lit side.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, and they're starvation cheap
- Kipling

From: Bobbo <bsaunders@spamsucksnetacs.net>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 3:21 AM

On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:09:00 -0500, Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:

>I don't know if this fits at all, but I am in the most desperate
>financial, and quite possibly emotional, crisis of my life.  A large
>part of this is trying to work with my ex-wife to get some very badly
>drafted divorce documents repurposed so that refinancing and such can
>help both of us. 
Damn, Howard...I think it says a lot that you manage to keep a sense of humor in your posts, considering your current situation. In like circumstances, I'm sure I would be a basket case.

-Bob Saunders
"Let me see -- I've been wealthy many times and always lost it, usually through governments inflating the money, or confiscating -- 'nationalizing' or 'liberating' -- something I owned. 'Put not your faith in princes,' Ira; since they don't produce, they always steal."
-Lazarus Long

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From: djinn <qinjingyou@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 3:54 AM

Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote in news:hcb- 9CF0B0.21090015032003@text.giganews.com:

> So I don't know if I'm feeling Impostor Syndrome, or something else.  I
> know 'm feeling overwhelmed when I make my best faith overtures to
> someone I once loved and still don't hate, and get vitriolic responses
> to innocent suggestions I make -- or even references to documentary
> evidence that don't agree with her preconceptions. My mental state is
> very weird -- in one respect, I have all manner of things to look
> forward to and that can motivate me, but I also have a crushing feeling
> that I am in serious danger of being penniless and homeless -- where,
> with a rational approach, I could be (and she could be) in above-average
> lifestyles.
>
Damn, Howard, BTDT. I can't think of anything to help, but I offer my sympathy. I know what its like.

On second thought, if it doesn't work out well, come walk the Silk Road with me.


From: TreetopAngel <treetopangelstinks@micro-mania.net>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 10:54 AM

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

My mental state is

> very weird -- in one respect, I have all manner of things to look
> forward to and that can motivate me, but I also have a crushing
> feeling that I am in serious danger of being penniless and homeless
> -- where,
> with a rational approach, I could be (and she could be) in
> above-average lifestyles.
>
>
There is ample room and grub in Montana for you! Would love to have you and Charlie will agree with me...

E!


From: ward <wdg3rd@comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Gulf and the Howards

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 4:44 PM

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

> I think your basic point will stand whatever anyone posts in
> opposition. That said, I do seem to recall that Lazarus Long
> appeared to consider himself progenitor to a significant
> fraction of all living humans. That is not equivalent to
> purposefully spreading the genes out, but there it is,
> nevertheless...
He didn't "consider himself progenitor", that was simply the statistics quoted in the forward by Justin Foote 45th. All Lazarus did was live a long time and have lots of kids who also lived a long time and had lots of kids. Over a couple of millennia, these things add up.
--
Ward Griffiths                                  wdg3rd@comcast.net

What kind of online content will people pay for?  Well, there's porn.
And dating sites. And Weightwatchers.  The hopeless, the hopeful, and
those in-between.                       Reason Online, 3/11/2003

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sir iso root: Just about coming on the whatchamacallit on 21 of March.

AGplusone: Ours is too Hollywooded up with Camelot to recall the rest easily, although I read some of the Howard Pyle adaptions years ago.

AGplusone: First day of Spring, aka vernal equinox?

sir iso root: Ok. I've got a whole slew of them, some academic treatments and the seriously occult weirdness at the other end....

AGplusone: [time to sacrifice some Christain babies to ensure the sun doesn't turn around and go back the other way? ;-)

aggirlj: Ze moon is very full in our neck of the woods.

AGplusone: ian ... ?

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DavidWrightSr: Christain-->Christian

AGplusone: Spelled Christian wrong ...

sir iso root: Right. Cristian mipselled.

aggirlj: 'xlent.

AGplusone: right!

AGplusone: Ever read something in Middle English called Gawaine and the Green Knight?

sir iso root: Read of, but not the text it self.

AGplusone: Green man, sacrifice annually, all that. Seems like it's generally a story ... text is fun to read. Retains old four stressed alliterative form with caesura that was in Anglo Saxon, in large part.

sir iso root: I have Parsifal, I've read Morte, Ivanhoe and skimmed others.

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sir iso root: Jane-> hope it's nothing serial.

aggirlj: LOL, good one Jussi, no they turned.

AGplusone: Well, we're close enough, shall we start?

sir iso root: Une Ange passe.

DavidWrightSr: Chto?

LadyS122: ack.. must reboot.

LadyS122 has left the room.

AGplusone: or not ... I'm easy, but I have one question: why do we want to trust Hartley Baldwin about anything?

DavidWrightSr: Because he is kind to small animals or insectsO:-)

AGplusone: And how old is that guy, anyway?

sir iso root: Une Ange Passe = An angel passes = A pregnant pause.

DavidWrightSr: Spasibo

AGplusone: Kind to one spider ...

AGplusone: likes attract likes

DavidWrightSr: That's the reason Joe gave for trusting him.

Dehede011: May I ask one question before starting

QinJingYou: professional courtesy

AGplusone: sure, Ron

Dehede011: Miss Jane, normally reliable sources inform me that you have experienced a 100 year storm

Dehede011: Does that resemble the view out your window?

aggirlj: Only in Denver. C/S didn't get the 100.

Dehede011: Good for you

AGplusone: C/S hangs around the corner from Cheyenne Mtn, and gets cloaked sometimes.

aggirlj: Exactly.

Dehede011: I was in one all time record snow storm -- you wouldn't enjoy the honor

DavidWrightSr: Worried about my wife's cousin's wife. She lives in Aurora and her husband is having to spend a year in India.

sir iso root: Quick Straw poll? How many have a tv-news channel on the backround? (I don't).

aggirlj: Been there, the worst in history was my first year here.

DavidWrightSr: Not here.

AGplusone: I do ... it's evening news time here.

aggirlj: Network is doing it too.

Dehede011: I do

stephenveiss: not me.. but I've got the radio on, and they're doing occasional updates

aggirlj: The latest Reality Tv.

DavidWrightSr: My wife is watching, so I'm sure I'll get any news. She does it all the time :-)

sir iso root: Okay. let's try to steer away from the news anyway.

aggirlj: I agaree.

aggirlj: agree

Dehede011: Yes, fascinating subject tonight

LadyS122 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Jennings (network anchor) just finished doing the evening's update. We're back to local, so I'm just ignorning most of it now.

LadyS122: thanks

aggirlj: Actually I like agaree.

AGplusone: Back to my "do we ever trust Hartley Baldwin?" Why should we?

DavidWrightSr: Why shouldn't we?

Dehede011: He is smart and independent but he never struck me as dishonest

sir iso root: It's going to be tough though since we are now "officially" living in interesting times just like that portrayed in Friday.

AGplusone: Well, I'm prejudiced against him because of "Gulf," which I read first ... and I read Gulf as the Temptation of Christ, restated.

Dehede011: I didn't read it as that literary

DavidWrightSr: sorry, I don't get it. Explain Please

AGplusone: He pulling a tremendous con on Joe Green all the way through. Need a suicide assassin.

sir iso root: He isn't dishonest. But he doesn't care about humans, just humanity.

Dehede011: He is a man on a mission

sir iso root: I think his letter to Friday is revealing.

Dehede011: ga

sir iso root: I think said something to the effect that while he was living, he could not admit that he loved Friday.

Dehede011: okay

sir iso root: One cannot admit attachment to something one is ready to sacrifice.

Dehede011: or a subordinate person in your organization

AGplusone: First arrange to discredit Joe with his agency, so badly they want to kill Joe, then he entices him (choice being: we bury you down here), then he sends him out to assassinate and be killed. I think that as manipulative as I can . .

sir iso root: Well, a daughter in every other sense than the biological.

AGplusone: imagine.

AGplusone: Then, the last word you have with the 'daughter' is give her the name of your opponent as a last resort ... ?

sir iso root: ?

Dehede011: He was a "singular" person wasn't he??

AGplusone: What name did he ask her to memorize the last conversation he has with her?

DavidWrightSr: Mosby?

AGplusone: Yes.

DavidWrightSr: And Why?

sir iso root: Gees. I didn't realize there was still stuff I've missed, but that went right above my head.

AGplusone: Why, indeed?

sir iso root: Is Mosby short for something?

DavidWrightSr: Joe's being discredited was only partially due to KB. A great deal of that was due to Mrs. Keithley et al. KB just got the films back.

AGplusone: Only significant Mosby I know was a guerrilla during our Revolution -- the swamp fox, the character Mel Gibson based that recent movie upon.

QinJingYou: Wrong guerilla, David

QinJingYou: Mosby was Civil war I think, not Francis Marion

AGplusone: Oh, yes. You're right. He was the cavalry commander during the War between the States

QinJingYou: He was 'irregular' I think, not regular Army, could be wrong

AGplusone: Between JEB Stuart and Bedford Forrest.

sir iso root: Re: Keithley. There are a lot of folks in that storyverse that have names ending in "ley".

AGplusone: Made a raid into Ohio

AGplusone: or was that Wade Hampton?

DavidWrightSr: Mosby was such a twerp that I wonder why KB had Friday memorize it. And he gave her no other infor about. Strange

aggirlj: Sarah can't get in.

AGplusone: Someone invite "Sarah Hoyt"

AGplusone: please.

DavidWrightSr: I did, but get no response

DavidWrightSr: She may have to reconnect or reboot

Dehede011: What is her screen name.

QinJingYou: I can't think of connection with 'Mosby'

DavidWrightSr: 'Sarah Hoyt'

Sarah Hoyt has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Ah. She made it.

sir iso root: Welcome

Sarah Hoyt: Yayyyy!

Dehede011: Did I do that or someone else

sir iso root: :-)

Sarah Hoyt: I'm dancing around right now.

Dehede011: Hi Sarah

AGplusone: Hi, Sarah. We're wondering why the character that Friday goes to see at long last is named Mosby ... (the one whose name Friday was asked to memorize by Baldwin the last time)

stephenveiss: I'm afraid I'm going to have to go and sleep now, before I fall over...

AGplusone: Only Mosby we know was a maybe guerrilla cavalry leader for the Confederacy in the American Civil War.

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, Lord, David. It's been five years since I read it. Even if I stole the plot. (It was most subconsciously done.)

AGplusone: Night Stephen, say hi to Jani for us.

sir iso root: I'm sort of thinking, is mosby short for Moresby.

Sarah Hoyt: Since I read it last.

stephenveiss: goodnight, and I will

DavidWrightSr: Unless we go with Ag's suggestion that KB is so dishonest that he was setting her for the mission to the realm O:-)

stephenveiss has left the room.

Sarah Hoyt: THAT wouldn't surprise me. He comes across as somewhat greasy and very manipulative.

Sarah Hoyt: Although he is kind of her dad.

Sarah Hoyt: But that too is squiggly.

DavidWrightSr: I must be very naive. I never saw him that way.

Sarah Hoyt: Oh. Well, it comes from the short story. David -- is the short story Gulf?

sir iso root: I wouldn't like him as an enemy. I wouldn't admit him as a friend.

AGplusone: Well, Mosby wasn't quite as bad as Quantrill or Nathan Bedford Forrest. Forrest executed soldiers he captured either for or fighting alongside negroes, and Quantril lead a mob that killed civilians, etc.

Sarah Hoyt: I mean, my perception of him came from the short story.

AGplusone: The short story is Gulf.

Dehede011: Who was Morgan??

Dehede011: in the civil war

DavidWrightSr: As a linguist, I was very disappointed that RAH didn't carry on the idea of the language from GULF. If it actually would work as the story postulated, then I can't see KB not continuing to use it for thinking.

Sarah Hoyt: In assignment in Eternity?

Sarah Hoyt: I think between Gulf and Friday the idea of that time of language had proved unscientific.

Dehede011: I asked Mrs. Heinlein about that language once -- where it came from etc

sir iso root: I have met some manipulative types, and Hartley is a true genius at that game. (Not that I am innocent myself of manipulation.)

DavidWrightSr: Why? I can't see any reason why not. Have you read anything on that?

Dehede011: She laughed and said, Oh, he made it up.

Sarah Hoyt: :-)

Dehede011: I spent time on the language and found I could come close using a Cantonese sylabary as a basis

AGplusone: The secret language, alongside the secret the Homo Novis possess detracts from the second story ...

Sarah Hoyt: Well -- it was also an idea in linguistics for a while -- but by the time I was in college it was being sneered at as unscientific. (Which actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't mean much of anything.)

DavidWrightSr: I think that it would be analogous to writing in Chinese characters

QinJingYou: Sapir/Whorf hypothesis, that language shapes or constrains our thinking, isn't presently considered valid by many linguists

AGplusone: makes it more a parallel to a 'superrace' and therefore objectionable.

DavidWrightSr: After Chomsky, they sneered at everything if didn't follow him.

sir iso root: Unscientific is as unscientific does.

AGplusone: Gulf is either very tongue in cheek, or very elitist ... and darkly reminenscent of 'der Obermenchen' of the Third Reich.

QinJingYou: Logban, a language created to test S/W, is alive but not really well. :-)

Sarah Hoyt: And yet, as one of the few people who changed "native" languages as adults (i.e., the language in which I operate totally) I'd have to say what Gallileo didn't -- and yet, it moves.

DavidWrightSr: What is your native language Sarah?

sir iso root: Used to be involved in lojban/logban/loglan. But it was a monkey exercise.

Sarah Hoyt: Now -- English. Till I turned 22 it was Portuguese.

QinJingYou: Actually Chomsky seems in retreat these days, too.

Sarah Hoyt: And I am also a linguist and I KNOW English is now, for all operational purposes my native language.

Sarah Hoyt: In fact, portuguese is hard to think in.

DavidWrightSr: Thank God. He was the reason that I left linguistics after I got my Master's and went into computers.

Sarah Hoyt: Also -- when I try it's like going insane.

Dehede011: I speak three languages -- English, hillbilly, and pig latin

Sarah Hoyt: David Sr -- yayyyy! We have stuff in common.

aggirlj: LOL

Sarah Hoyt: My pig latin is rusty.

Sarah Hoyt: :-D

sir iso root: Heh. I don't speak any languages. (well)

Sarah Hoyt: I used to speak seven languages, though, once upon a long time ago and in a galaxy far away.

Dehede011: Mine too but as you are unlikely to test me

AGplusone: Does anyone really believe humans can communicate in the language Heinlein made up?

AGplusone: "Speedtalk"?

DavidWrightSr: I'm trying my best to get to where I can think in Russian, but it's a long haul. I first learned it over 40 years ago

Sarah Hoyt: Heinlein's fault, of course. I was trying for 10.

sir iso root: By definition no.

sir iso root: Only Homo Novis.

AGplusone: And who are they?

sir iso root: Not me.

aggirlj: The rappers.

Sarah Hoyt: BTW, I'm having trouble addressing anyone but the two Davids and Jane by name. I don't remember who anyone else is under the nifty handles. I don't suppose there's a roseta stone?

Sarah Hoyt: My youngest kid. He speaks Math.

QinJingYou: speedtalk seems kind of like cant.

AGplusone: " . . . we've had our eye on you for years . . . " after complimenting the hell out of him, say, mebbe you can measure up and join us ....

DavidWrightSr: No. there is no a priori reason why normal people couldn't learn speedtalk. That was only one aspect of Homo Novis.

AGplusone: classic trick

sir iso root: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen hails from these parts.

Sarah Hoyt: Yeah -- Manipulative. When I was a kid, I thought it was neat, but as an adult the whole pitch strikes me "run away fast."

Dehede011: Sarah, Ron Harrison. Dehede was our name before we changed to Harrison

Sarah Hoyt: I'm going to rescue burning rice. Brb.

AGplusone: ever try to think of words that are based on an alphabet to the base 60?

aggirlj: brb

sir iso root: No, but we had our own language as kids.

AGplusone: word is a letter, and sentence is a word ...

sir iso root: Me, My sister, and a friend.

AGplusone: Is there any language like that in human history?

Sarah Hoyt: And, Jane, I don't ALWAYS burn things.

DavidWrightSr: None that I know of.

AGplusone: Can you compute to the base 60?

Dehede011: Cherokee has 85 sylables. you could have close to 8100 two sylable words

QinJingYou: Seems like an agglutinative language (whatever its called now) would resemble that in some ways

DavidWrightSr: The major problem that I see with it would be that you might have to have alternative sounds for the same meaning so that you could combine them pronounceably.

Sarah Hoyt: David -- By definition, almost, it would need to be an artificial language and the only artificial language doing well is ... okay, my mind has gone blank. Star Trek Language. Ridgy foreheads...

sir iso root: Purely by association, Finnish letters are so organized that if you do a mirror image transposition, a vowel almost always hits another vowel.

DavidWrightSr: I didn't say it would be easy ;-)

QinJingYou: Mandarin has alternate pronounciations to combine sylables.

LadyS122: Klingon

Sarah Hoyt: Thanks!

AGplusone: We have digital computers ... imagine writing a program in a language to the base 60

LadyS122: no prob. I have a couple of the tapes and books.

Sarah Hoyt: Some of my best friends speak it...

Dehede011: But designing a typewriter might be difficult

Sarah Hoyt: And the group up in Denver babysits my kids every Mile High.

DavidWrightSr: Ever seen a chinese typewriter?

Dehede011: Nope

Sarah Hoyt: No, but I've often wondered about those.

sir iso root: There was a Finnish kook who thought that since Finnish is an

agglutinative language, it was tha root of all other languages (Even before atlantis ;-)

Dehede011: But we aren't that far from taking and being directly transcribed

DavidWrightSr: They do exist. I actually never saw it, but I knew a girl at Indiana University who was the expert on it.

Sarah Hoyt: Dragon speak. Two versions ago, transcribes me even with my accent.

AGplusone: I've got voice recognizition software on my computer.

JudyjediJudy has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Judy

Dehede011: Okay

AGplusone: Hi, JJJJ

DavidWrightSr: Homework done?

Sarah Hoyt: In fact, that brings me to the thing I WANTED most from Heinlein's books. Eunice's desk.

JudyjediJudy: Oops, I'm logged in as Judy, this is Felicia

JudyjediJudy: BRB

sir iso root: He also thought that "KAPITUM" was the lost masonic word, and if you do all the possible anagrams of that, everything will be revealed.

Dehede011: We also walk dogs??

JudyjediJudy has left the room.

AGplusone: wrong spice ... now the spice is correctly applied

AGplusone: yummm

fgherman has entered the room.

aggirlj: b

AGplusone: or will be soon

fgherman: Hello all

DavidWrightSr: Hi Felicia

AGplusone: Okay, spice is right. Deal the cards.

Dehede011: Jussi look up Idries Shah's theory on the lost Masonic word

Dehede011: I think you will like it

sir iso root: Willco.

Dehede011: It is in The Sufi, I believe

Sarah Hoyt: Okay. I gots to go feed cats, kids and husband. That's what I do. I feed helpless creatures. Been nice. Sorry I have to leave.

AGplusone: Some how we've gotten into 'esoteric knowledge' spinning out of Gulf ...

Dehede011: bye

fgherman: Good night

DavidWrightSr: I didn't know that the Masons had lost a word. When did that happen?

LadyS122: nothing like a tangent. :-)

aggirlj: See you Sarah.

Dehede011: While Dave Silver was Master of the Lodge

AGplusone: what do you think about Gulf, Felicia? Would you buy Baldwin's pie in the sky?

sir iso root: Dunno. Never been one.

Sarah Hoyt: They put the word in a safe place. IT's been lost ever since. :-D

Sarah Hoyt: See you Jane. Will try to email tonight.

aggirlj: 'ka

Sarah Hoyt has left the room.

fgherman: I think we're going to kick some Iraqi butt

AGplusone: Secret knowledge, secret language, join our Master Race? Kill people who deserve to die! For fun!

sir iso root: Not in this group, I think.

AGplusone: Improve the breed .... and protect the untermenchen.

RMLWJ1 has entered the room.

aggirlj: splittttttt.

RMLWJ1: Good evening.

AGplusone: Evenin' RML

fgherman: Good evening RMl

aggirlj: Hello, <<<< Jane

Dehede011: Dave do you see any John Campbell in that??

sir iso root: The chap was a total idiot anyway. Forget him.

AGplusone: I think he was yanking Campbell's chain and Campbell never knew it.

Dehede011: Are you sure. Campbell had found that stuff sold stories.

DavidWrightSr: Y'all lost me on this one. What did Campbell have to do with anything. The story?

Dehede011: Gulf DW

AGplusone: Campbell was a noted white man's burden type .... racist in fact.

DavidWrightSr: How do you mean "yanking his chain" what is the reference?

AGplusone: Gulf.

Dehede011: Campbell had everything to do with Gulf, he commissioned it right down to the theme

fgherman: It's been decades since I've read Gulf

AGplusone: The entire superman plot.

Dehede011: Yes

sir iso root: I think Gulf and Friday were both about survival. Gulf about the survival of the whole, at the expense of the individual.

AGplusone: Baldwin takes Joe Green down into the cellar and (in a parody of the temptation of Christ) offers him a chance to join Homo Novis (or stay in the cellar, actually, buried)

Dehede011: I think it was Randall and Silverberg that laid out the whole thing with Campbell in explaining one of their series

sir iso root: Friday was about the survival of the individual, even when the center cannot hold.

DavidWrightSr: I don't recall it that way. As I recall it, 'Gulf' was just mentioned in a fictitious article and RAH was given the task to write. He actually first wrote the notes on SIASL and then put it aside as being too big and did this one.

AGplusone: Learn esoteric knowledge, and get to kill all the people who deserve it, including the evil Mrs. Keithley.

AGplusone: No. Campbell didn't specify anything, but Robert knew what Campbell could be sold by, and I think, in conscious irony, wrote Campbell what he believed, an elitist, 'superrace' story, on its surface.

DavidWrightSr: I sometimes think that people read too much into things. 8-)

sir iso root: Who is Mrs. Keithleys real-world counterpart?

Dehede011: Right but my point is that isn't the only time Campbell bought that theme

DavidWrightSr: Obviously, the Devil as she offered Joe the world

AGplusone: Too ...

AGplusone: Everyone is selling Joe Green ...

aggirlj: Isn't everyone selling Friday as well?

AGplusone: or trying to buy him. Keithley uses the traditional specie, money and power, while Baldwin uses knowledge ....

sir iso root: not buy, compel.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

AGplusone: esoteric knowledge ... and between the lines, sex, i.e., "Gail"

aggirlj: Hi Howard!

fgherman: Howdy

Dehede011: And the undiscovered HN that suddenly becomes self aware was another common theme in that day

LanaiHoward: Hi all, plus the psychic who saw me start to type IM before my fingers hit the keys

aggirlj: Fast on the draw.

sir iso root: Was Slan before, or after Gulf?

Copycat669 has entered the room.

Copycat669: woo hoo! i'M HERE FOR THE CHAT!!

Dehede011: I read it before but I didn't read Gulf until 1970

sir iso root: That is a VERY small font.

fgherman: Not enough sleep last night guys - gotta go

fgherman has left the room.

aggirlj: Bye for now.

DavidWrightSr: Night Felicia.

aggirlj: Way fast.

sir iso root: bye.

Dehede011: bye

RMLWJ1: quick fingers on the keys.

AGplusone: Aw, shucks ... what does Baldwin use to sell Marjorie Baldwin?

Copycat669: Wanna hear a funny story?

Dehede011: Si

aggirlj: ga

LadyS122 has left the room.

Copycat669: I founda new bookstore. The guy had just recieved a shipment of books from an estate.

aggirlj: And.....

Copycat669: there was a hardback heinlein and I only got a second to look at it, so I thought it was signed.

RMLWJ1: Buy it?

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

Copycat669: he said after he'd had a chance to price it, he'd offer it to me and when he emailed me that it would be 5.95, I jumped on it!!!

aggirlj: Hey, Steph.

RMLWJ1: Neat.

aggirlj: Very neat.

Copycat669: So I very anxiously anticipate opening the cover....and....

Merfilly27: thanks for the invite...had a maternity fair tonight

Copycat669: it's signed by myra hedgegrove. :-)

AGplusone: Hi, Steph

aggirlj: LOL

QinJingYou: :-)

Merfilly27: hello to one and all

Copycat669: rest in peace...

Dehede011: howdy

DavidWrightSr: I found it interesting to contrast the genetics in BTH with those of GULF. In the former, Felix raised the question of separating a race, but Claude said that wasn't the way it worked. In Gulf, it was assumed that that was the only

DavidWrightSr: way it could work.

Merfilly27: So what juicy debate have I missed? :-)

sir iso root: Gees. My mochine decided to purge the /temp directories just now. Things are coming at a snails pace....

RMLWJ1: bummer

aggirlj: Gulf is the main one at the moment.

LanaiHoward: David, not to fault RAH, but the genetics in most of the books are just plain wrong. I'm not talking advanced genomics but Mendelian stuff.

Copycat669: Iv'e never read gulf. Is it a predecessor to friday?

AGplusone: Yes.

sir iso root: very much so

Copycat669: short story in a magazine then?

DavidWrightSr: But even if it was wrong. I wonder about the contrast. Strictly for the story?

Dehede011: Yep, Astounding Science Fiction

AGplusone: It's a story about Friday's parents, Joe and Gail Green .... a novella ... you can find it in Assignment in Eternity collection

Merfilly27: Were it not for the explanation of Friday's parentage, and Mr. Two-Canes real name, it would be easy to miss the connection

LanaiHoward: possibly. I can see morality stories in spreading or conserving "good" or

Randyjj55 has entered the room.

LanaiHoward: bad" genes

AGplusone: Hi, Randy ....

Dehede011: Why did RAH call Gulf his favorite short story -- any ideas anyone??

LanaiHoward: although that has little to do with dominance or recessiveness

Randyjj55: Hello David, David, and others....

Dehede011: Hi Randy

DavidWrightSr: I thought that 'traveling in elephants' was his favorite.

sir iso root: Because it was done off the cuff?

Merfilly27: A hope superior men would come and have conscience?

AGplusone: We've mentioned Candide, the Grail Legend, etc., as possibly plot analogues ... anyone see another one?

sir iso root: A challenge. Strictly constrictive and thus totally free.

Dehede011: Yes, I believe you are right according to Ginny but when Analog published its Author's Favorites RAH submitted Gulf

DavidWrightSr: Probably because 'Gulf' was SF whereas 'TIE' was fantasy

Dehede011: Well Gulf was in Analog, I don't know about TIE

LanaiHoward: Written long after Gulf but nonfiction is a book called _In Search of the Warrior Spirit_., documenting a research effort to teach Eastern and other alternatives to Army Special Forces...

Dehede011: Author??

LanaiHoward: perhaps gentler, but it reminded me vaguely of the HN training. I know one of the trainers, but I forget the main author name

Copycat669: what's tie?

sir iso root: David Silver- -> what are you trying to fish for?

AGplusone: There's Mowgli or the Jungle Book, of course, but: How about the story of Pinnochio?

Merfilly27: Pinocchio suits Friday better than Gulf

sir iso root: Wow.

AGplusone: Yes. Referring to Friday

DavidWrightSr: TIE was in something called 'Saturn'

LanaiHoward: Pinnochion brings up too many bad images of Bill, Monica and the Cigar -- how about Oz? Or the Little Mermaid?

Merfilly27: It even smacks to me of Pandora, but then, Friday only seemed to fall into mischief

Dehede011: Richard Strozzi sound right??

sir iso root: Well, There is also Justine by De Sade.

AGplusone: Well, the Little Mermaid is an interesting story having some parallels, but Marjorie really wants to be a real girl, doesn't she?

LanaiHoward: sounds right, Dehede. Jack Cirie is the instructor I know.

Dehede011: Richard Strozzi Heckler -- correction

AGplusone: Yes.

AGplusone: Justine fits.

LanaiHoward: exactly-- that's him

DavidWrightSr: What is HN?

DavidWrightSr: DId I miss something?

Merfilly27: Homo Novis

AGplusone: Shame Baldwin's nose didn't grow longer the more he lied ...

DavidWrightSr: Duh.!!!

Copycat669: I'm afraid to confess that I'm distracted re-reading gulf

Merfilly27: Some other classic writer is pinging at my skull for writing New Man...any help?

LanaiHoward: maybe the belly got bigger?

sir iso root: Hah.

AGplusone: Maybe the canes were his reward for prevarication.

LanaiHoward: Stephanie, is new man always utopic? What about Brave New World?

LanaiHoward: (the world's most pleasant dystopia)

sir iso root: The ancient Pharaohs had two elongated thingies. So does the pope.

AGplusone: I stopped reading sf a long time ago, Steph, but the only one I really remember when I stopped was Blish's seeding stars stories.

aggirlj: Okay, 'splain.

AGplusone: We Love Big Brother ....

sir iso root: Two canes.

aggirlj: Ah.

Merfilly27: It may be Brave New World..read only once, just like 1984

Dehede011: Jussi you mean the two ribbons on the back of the Pope's mitre?

sir iso root: Two Canes is a name for Kettle Belly in Friday.

AGplusone: <--- confuse the two all the time.

aggirlj: With you.

Merfilly27: (And yet dark future is my favorite RPG genre)

AGplusone: That's because in Gulf, Baldwin is relatively young and vital.

AGplusone: yet, still very likely over 100 then ....

sir iso root: No. The Pope has a crook staff, and one with a cruciform end.

Merfilly27: The Pharaoh had the Crook and the Flail

AGplusone: how old is Baldwin really?

sir iso root: Or the Crook and the Hoe.

Merfilly27: over a hunnerd by the medics estimate

Dehede011: Yes, and two ribbons on the back of the mitre on his head. In horseback days that was to hold it on

LanaiHoward: AG, please do not confuse things and try to make KB a Howard

Merfilly27: you mean he isn't?

Merfilly27: :-)

AGplusone: But in Gulf, Joe figures that he's over a hundred then ... and Friday isn't necessarily only one generation later.

AGplusone: In fact, I doubt it ....

Merfilly27: It's not, by my estimate

AGplusone: was some time before they could tailor the zygote

AGplusone: and too many changes ...

Merfilly27: they had colonies way out in the boonies of space...but only the moon is mentioned in Gulf

AGplusone: they had copters flying all over in Gulf ... yet by Friday they'd done away with most hydrocarbon vehicles and gone back to horsies.

AGplusone: Shipstones ...

sir iso root: Unification Boat.

aggirlj: Only for business.

AGplusone: Time enough for the interrelated Shipstone corporations to take over control of virtually all the world (and Realm, etc.)

AGplusone: Baldwin spends some time in the joint, then he's off-planet for a while, and so on ... before he gets back Friday is in her doxy training period ... really a funny time line to figure out ...

DavidWrightSr: The explosion on the moon which killed Joe and Gail seems to be a historical event rather than one fairly close in time. Just my HO.

Copycat669 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, and how did Shipstones get into Maureen's time line?

AGplusone: Skyhooks instead of step rockets btwn Earth and the space station ...

sir iso root: And how do Shipstones actually work?

AGplusone: seemed like everything somehow got into Friday ...

DavidWrightSr: One of the more interesting of the multiverses :-)

sir iso root: Are Shipstones the first example of something that Heinlein never got around to explaining.

AGplusone: ~ storage battery is all he said

sir iso root: But storage how?

DavidWrightSr: Super Super storage battery !

AGplusone: but by an order of magnitude that is incomprehensible to anyone

DavidWrightSr: Well, if we knew that we would all be rich

Merfilly27: I think it was the way he visualized superclean nuclear power being stored

sir iso root: Ah! Power! Now we ar getting somewhere.

GHMyst has entered the room.

AGplusone: don't need to patent it because no one can figure it out or even take it apart without killing themselves and everyone around them ... hehehe .... imagine the first lawsuit brought over that one.

GHMyst: Hello all

sir iso root: The Ultimate Hermetic Secret.

AGplusone: Hi, Ed.

aggirlj: Hi.

DavidWrightSr: Only a lawyer would think of that :-)

AGplusone: Almost .... except only Shipstone has the true secret of the universe!

Merfilly27: I can see it after reading up on the newer circuitry being designed to fuse if any attempt to take it apart happens

aggirlj: Imagine the MSDS.

DavidWrightSr: ?

GHMyst: Material Safety data Sheet

aggirlj: What they tell you about all manufacturing items. Definitions

RMLWJ1: egad.

DavidWrightSr: Thank you

AGplusone: No, thank you.

aggirlj: Thanks GHM

AGplusone: Propose we break to 30 past the hour?

DavidWrightSr: Zeb had the same situation in TNOTB. 'Juice is very unfriendly if you don't know how to handle it'

sir iso root: Do you actually read those. Seconded.

aggirlj: Ready, gotta take it off the fire and eat something.

Merfilly27: sure...baby needs a snack :-)

AGplusone: Okay, I'm away watering my cat ... brb

aggirlj: brb

Merfilly27: I have read the MSDSs

AGplusone: Ed, you have the conn.

AGplusone: <veg>

Merfilly27: was safety officer for my squad, despite being PFC at time

sir iso root: I haven't gone anywhere.

Dehede011: I spent a summer once filing and updating MSDS sheets for a company

QinJingYou: I have to go, I'm expected to have dinner ready, and haven't started... :-)

Dehede011: be good

QinJingYou: later

RMLWJ1: enjoy

QinJingYou has left the room.

GHMyst: Seeing as I came in a little late

Merfilly27: I say squad, was technically a platoon but we were short staffed

sir iso root: Stephanie-> was there anything you liked in the MSDS?

GHMyst: what has been discuused so far?

Merfilly27: Treatment recommendations were handy

RMLWJ1: Yeah. They are.

Dehede011: Guys, I need to move along.

Merfilly27: I was surprised how little common sense there is in the average soldier's head when it comes to chems

Merfilly27: see you later

Dehede011: bye all

Dehede011 has left the room.

AGplusone: Anything you want to bring up is fine, Ed ...

GHMyst: The topic, I believe is the Gulf-Friday universe

GHMyst: I will admit it has been a while since I have read either

Merfilly27: Why was Starman Jones mentioned for this chat?

GHMyst: ????

DavidWrightSr: Do I have everyone who is here address, so that I can mail notifications of the logs and meetings?

AGplusone: Shane Glassman advanced the idea that SJ was the same universe ....

sir iso root: I heard that from jane silver as well, and was frankly nonplussed.

AGplusone: Don't know ... might ask if they all receive notices ....

GHMyst: An interesting theory

Merfilly27: I have not read it..was no copy at the BN

LanaiHoward has left the room.

GHMyst: I am more familiar with Gulf. The story of how

DavidWrightSr: let me know if you didn't receive the notice directly and want to be on the llist dwrighsr@alltel.net

GHMyst: it came about is interersting

DavidWrightSr: I don't see any connection between SJ and these stories, personally

AGplusone: Well, they have a sort of warp drive, but it must be in the future of SJ, because they don't have astrologators anymore, Friday sez ....

GHMyst: That's a bit thin

AGplusone: They have an Imperium, and SJ has Imperial Marines, but it seems to me that the balkanization of the world doesn't really amount to anyone having an Empire.

DavidWrightSr: The star travel is totally different. SJ depended on calculated congruencies at specific points. Friday implied that you could go anywhich way you wanted as long as each leg was furthe away than the previous.

AGplusone: I didn't understand exactly why that was so ... 'splain it to me, please.

DavidWrightSr: why each leg had to be further away?

AGplusone: yes

sir iso root: The thing with Heinlein is that the seams are more visible then the connections. There may be a throw-away line that upsides an idea in a totally different story.

aggirlj: b

GHMyst has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: well you could do it the other way, but then you would be back tracking. This way you are always moving 'towards' your final destination.

AGplusone: so why need that be true?

sir iso root: I think Heinlein is (Cannot type past that)

AGplusone: Something to do with time?

DavidWrightSr: back tracking would lengthen the total journey time without gaining anything. Actually, both SJ and Friday have the problem with relativity that RAH overlooks.

aggirlj: I think so, it's what's mentioned by Friday.

Merfilly27: their school of astrogation appears to require heavy dependence on Planetary gravity wells

DavidWrightSr: Whose school?

AGplusone: I wondered whether it was something to do with 'sling shotting'?

Merfilly27: Friday's

Merfilly27: that was the inference I got from the trip descriptions

sir iso root: There are many ways to geometricise space. Heinlein chose one.

Merfilly27: agreed

AGplusone: The lecture goes like one in which the prof says, "and from this, it is *perfectly* apparent that that follows . . . " and you go, "Huh?"

DavidWrightSr: GW would be totally unnecessary with ships powered by Shipstones. You use would use GW only in reaction based ships. Actually how the ships functions is not mentioned at all IIRC in Friday.

GHMyst has entered the room.

AGplusone: There is something about a funicular

sir iso root: That is a funnel?

AGplusone: and having more energy at the end ... or an equal amount

AGplusone: Someone explain to me what a funicular does, please?

DavidWrightSr: that's because it expends power going part of the way and stores it back on the second leg. How. Bog Znayet!

AGplusone: Right ...

AGplusone: Sort of like Libby's little device ... <g>

AGplusone: Faster you fly into the sun, faster out you go ...

GHMyst: Back again, sorry about that

Merfilly27: More proof for close parallel to the Howards' timeline?

sir iso root: I'm going to hit the dictionary big-time after this chat.

Merfilly27: The fact 2012 is mentioned always perks my attention

AGplusone: Yeah, exactly *who* is Baldwin, the Long-Lived ...

AGplusone: and 2012 is a bad joke

GHMyst: Wasn't there a recent discussion on alt.fan.heinlein about baldwin??

Merfilly27: of course 2012 is a date often found by interpretations of various dead cultures' doomsday

AGplusone: Some little

DavidWrightSr: I think that a funicular is a train which has an up part and a down part which balance each other so that the only power needed is move them disregarding the effect of gravity. Isn't there one on Pike's Peak?

GHMyst: or is it effects of friction

AGplusone: a roller coaster that goes forever

DavidWrightSr: I've gotten over 120 messages off of afh on these themes.

sir iso root: Baldwin is a name for an apple. Hartley is like Heart-line. Old paintings pain hearts like apples.

AGplusone: Ever notice the name of the paddle wheel steamer Friday is on that blows up?

sir iso root: Give.

AGplusone: Myra Harshaw? Jubal's mother?

Merfilly27: http://travel.howstuffworks.com/question512.htm

Merfilly27: deals with funicular railways

AGplusone: sister, daughter?

GHMyst: can't say I recall it

AGplusone: Oh, I did this time ... why that name?

aggirlj: David, Cog railroad.

aggirlj: Pikes Peak

GHMyst: I think I'm going to have todrag Friday off the shelf again and give it a re-read

DavidWrightSr: It was the Myrtle T. Hanshaw

sir iso root: James Prufits two horses which pulled the landau were callled Gog and Magog.

AGplusone: And why is Friday's fertility unrestored at the end .... ?

AGplusone: She says, "I'll have time for that later ... "

Randyjj55 has left the room.

sir iso root: What does Prufit mean?

AGplusone: Is that the difference from a Hawk, then?

GHMyst: ouch

DavidWrightSr: Wrong book :-)

AGplusone: I know the difference between a Hawk and a Hanshaw?

DavidWrightSr: Ok Grandma Hazel

DavidWrightSr: Prufit? nothing that I know of. might be a parody of profit.

Merfilly27: Or "Proove-it"

AGplusone: I find it fun to figure out whether he was planting hooks to bring in the other of the multiverses into Friday's 'future'

Merfilly27: or "Proof-it"

aggirlj: Or prude.

sir iso root: And I still feel seriously uneasy about Mr. Underfoot. Seems to be a cute name for a cat, but there are deep and dark undettones (if you'll forgive me.)

DavidWrightSr: I wonder what caused the Papacy to be outlawed. Too many scandals O:-)

AGplusone: World as Myth, Sopholist runs amok. Especially with Gog and Maggog there.

AGplusone: The think about Voltaire is it's all about why is there Evil Satan in the Universe ... next book is about maybe Satan is the good guy, isn't it?

AGplusone: thing = think

DavidWrightSr: Job?

AGplusone: yep

sir iso root: I Think we will be left with more questions and less answers tonight.

DavidWrightSr: That was RAH's purpose in life, to make us ask questions.

DavidWrightSr: and make money doing it.

AGplusone: Yeah, but I 'gots to know' what RAH was doing!

GHMyst: that's nothing new for this group - no offense

AGplusone: to me ....

aggirlj: Well all I can say is we're staying ON TOPIC tonight.

Merfilly27: Aggh! Quick, someone go off!

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. strange isn't it :-D

Merfilly27: :-)

AGplusone: Why not have someone else start a thought .... what is there in Friday that intrigues you, or causes you to question? Anyone .... prize awarded!

sir iso root: David Silver -> Me too.

GHMyst: I just looked at my copy of Friday and just realized how long it has been since I got it and read it. Depressing

aggirlj: Well, as I said earlier this evening, I think Friday is a very interestingwoman as written by a man. I believe Ginny had a great deal of influencein this character.

RMLWJ1: Mine's still packed from the move.

AGplusone: I know exactly how long ...

DavidWrightSr: I read the first 110 pages or so of it standing in the bookstore.

RMLWJ1: lol, David. I did the same, but only fifty or so pages.

Merfilly27: Funny thing for me was that Friday is one of the modern novels that took me the longest to get around to reading

sir iso root: brb. pitstop.

Merfilly27: encountered it in '88, but never could get thru it til about '98

AGplusone: I was there the day the store opened, after copies were available (heard it was coming out) grabbed it and brought it home to read ...

DavidWrightSr: Not me. I read everything right through the first time I could get it into my hands.

GHMyst: All I remember is that is didn't really click for me like most of his other works...But after all this time I can't recall why

AGplusone: usually the day they came out ...

DavidWrightSr: I spent an entire weekend in the Ft. Jackson library with SIASL, not stopping to ear or anything

Merfilly27: It and IWFNE were the only two to do that for me

Merfilly27: Camp Snoopy has a Library?

sir iso root: b

RMLWJ1: Took me a while to get into IWFNE.

DavidWrightSr: It did in 1962

Merfilly27:

DavidWrightSr: But most of the troops could still read then. --Ducking--

Merfilly27: yeah, I know

AGplusone: and some actually could talk

sir iso root: Me IWFNE was and is hard, but Cat I could not finish.

AGplusone: in words

aggirlj: I can tell you reading it now I am reading it with great interest. I love the subtext he is writing.

AGplusone: Which one, Jane?

aggirlj: Friday.

DavidWrightSr: The only one I had trouble with was TNOTB because of the shifting viewpoints, but now I don't find it hard at all. Just started re-reading it in fact.

AGplusone: which subtext?

aggirlj: Her asides.

AGplusone: What's the best one you've found so far ....

aggirlj: A stream of conciousness that is very interesting.

DavidWrightSr: How so? I don't quite get what you are saying.

DavidWrightSr: What am I saying, I don't get it at all.

sir iso root: Is there really something in Cat that explains/expounds on Friday/Gulf timeline?

AGplusone: "Well, if Goldie really loved me, she wouldn't have left me with just a note ... "

DavidWrightSr: and yet she had said virtually the same thing to Georges

Merfilly27: The thing about Friday that finally appealed to me was the fact she was self-alienated.

aggirlj: The dialogues she has with herself and her way of thinking and how RAH is able to capture this feminne side.

AGplusone: The Loves of Helen Trent!

DavidWrightSr: You are dating yourself David :-)

sir iso root: ?

sir iso root: Helen Trent?

AGplusone: Old soap opera ...

DavidWrightSr: An old soap opera

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

AGplusone: Love me, leave me, love me, leave me, love me, leave me ... and so on.

sir iso root: GMTA?

aggirlj: Me too.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, Great minds think alike

aggirlj: Thanks.

sir iso root: Don't be sorry, before were through, I'll be using it :-D

Merfilly27: Signs of a Sick Society

AGplusone: Oh, I love them!

Merfilly27: Friday was told by Baldwin that the loss of manners is the basic sign

DavidWrightSr: What Soaps or Sick Society signs?

Merfilly27: TCWWTW is built on manners

Merfilly27: A comedy of...

Merfilly27: as was recently discussed

DavidWrightSr: I don't think putting Limburger cheese in the heater outlet constitutes good manners

aggirlj: LOL

AGplusone: Better than assassinating them

GHMyst: Has anyone tried to chart out all of the implied connections in al of his later works??

Merfilly27: By Bog that would be a work

AGplusone: "Assassins who changed history" "Assassin8ion for fun and profit"

sir iso root: A very arduos quest.

Merfilly27: Call it "Heinlein in Connection"?

Merfilly27: :-D

AGplusone: I keep wanting to get Joe Major in one of these chats ...

DavidWrightSr: The neat thing about the Multiverse is that you don't have to. Any connection or discrepancy can be explained away by just talking about different but similar universes.

Merfilly27: I wish McCaffrey would take that tack

sir iso root: Why is Joe Major so reclusive?

AGplusone: he has two Future Histories mapped out, I bet he could come up with six, ten, twelve if he kept going

sir iso root: He clearly likes Heinlein.

DavidWrightSr: I wonder if RAH didn't have something like that in mind because people were always trying to make connections that were not necessarily there

AGplusone: He's very involved in publication of some 'zines.

sir iso root: Ah. Priorities.

DavidWrightSr: That's why I mentioned Shipstones in connection with Maureen. The histories are obviously different, but the same invention got done in both.

AGplusone: But he was deliberately starting to emulate Cabell in tying it all together at the end ....

Merfilly27: Job

AGplusone: That Number of the Beast number of universes.

Merfilly27: Job had Shipstones, I believe

Merfilly27: in some of the places

sir iso root: No.

GHMyst has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Don't recall offhand, but yould be right. Haven't read it in a while. My least favorite.

Merfilly27: I think the one that Jerry (Satan) lived in

sir iso root: Farnsworth.

Merfilly27: Job appealed to me but I had already read For Love of Evil by Anthony

AGplusone: The JFK and the space program continues on universe ... and we really go technological.

AGplusone: 12 lane highways ...

Merfilly27: so Satan as the good guy was not new to me, though the books were published other way around

GHMyst has entered the room.

GHMyst: Sorry, lost my connection for a minute

sir iso root: There certainly is a manichean logic to some of Heinleins works.

sir iso root: The world is evil, but WE the HUMANS can act decently.

AGplusone: There's a lot of the Gospel of Thomas in SiaSL ... ever notice that?

Merfilly27: rather than make the various connections, I'd be more apt to sit and see if each of the modern novels from Friday on had one, different, underlying theme

aggirlj: That's a pardox as far as I'm concerned.

AGplusone: lots of gnosticism

aggirlj: paradox

Merfilly27: Pair o 'Docs?

DavidWrightSr: Pair -o- doxies

aggirlj: LOL. Who knows.

AGplusone: Michael (orthodox) Valentine (gnostic) Smith (medieval everyman) ....

sir iso root: Or the euphemism for manicheanism: "Anticosmic".

GHMyst: Too bad BPRAL22169 isn't on, you could have a nice long talk about SIASL

DavidWrightSr: I wonder if he got his computer dry?

AGplusone: New talks are sometimes enlightening ....

sir iso root: David Silver -> VMS very enlightening.

GHMyst: Dry?

AGplusone: a new viewpoint washes away all preconceptions

aggirlj: Had some rain problems in SF

AGplusone: and leads to new ones

AGplusone: It rained on his puter through the roof

DavidWrightSr: He had to forego the Heinlein Society board meeting because his room was leaking over his computer.

DavidWrightSr: Deluge in San Francisco

GHMyst: ouch

AGplusone: There's a little book on Stranger, co-written by Bill, containing some stuff we cooked up a few years ago on names in Strangers

AGplusone: Called A Martian Named Smith ...

DavidWrightSr: Nitrosyncretic Press: (adv)

AGplusone: "we" meaning the readers group mostly on afh ... but also on aol

sir iso root: It took me 9 months to "order" The Readers Compagnion.

AGplusone: but containing also a lot of other thoughts on Stranger. Buy one directly from Bill ... I'm sure he can get one to you.

GHMyst: I'm afraid I must be going. Carry on.

AGplusone: Ed, nice you could come.

sir iso root: Not Nitrosyncretics problem.

DavidWrightSr: You mean it took that long for Jim to "fulfill" the order? Or am i misunderstanding you

aggirlj: Bye Ed.

GHMyst: TTFN

GHMyst has left the room.

sir iso root: Stupid retail outlet.

Merfilly27: B&N?

AGplusone: Amazon?

Merfilly27: I had problems getting a book still in print from them

sir iso root: In Finland? Please.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. My only problem with Nitrosyncretic, and it's probably not Jim's fault, is that Phil Owenby's book has never come to fruition.

AGplusone: Kultsi says he flies over to Helsinki mostly.

AGplusone: says it's easier there

AGplusone: sorry Oslo ... not Helsinki

sir iso root: I'll get everything eventually. Or die trying :-)

AGplusone: d'oh ... my bad

sir iso root: Fuck your oslo and the one rode in on.

AGplusone: Ah, the Swedish Empire ...

aggirlj: For a Fin Jussi you certainly have a grasp on idium.

sir iso root: Well... (-)

DavidWrightSr: Kultsi is the same way. Either they are all geniuses there or they have a tremendous educational setup or both.

sir iso root: make that 8-)

Merfilly27: Kultsi is a genius...IMHO

DavidWrightSr: I could never tell from either of the that they are not native English speakers, (or at least English writers)

DavidWrightSr: :-)

AGplusone: We have about 30 minutes left ... another point on Friday-Gulf?

AGplusone: Anyone?

DavidWrightSr: What get back on topic. reallyO:-)

AGplusone: "If there are no questions, then, I have a question: . . . " you may not really want to hear.

Merfilly27: which is?

AGplusone: If Tilly has a child by Georges or anyone other than Percival, is the child an AP, or what?

DavidWrightSr: No.

AGplusone: does it have enhanced hearing, superstrength, or . . .

DavidWrightSr: Not an AP, because no gene manipulation would be done. Strictly the old fashion way

Merfilly27: Because AP only applies to those born of the kniofe

AGplusone: leap tall buildings at a single bound, etc.?

AGplusone: Or leap only short buildings?

DavidWrightSr: Would have some of the inherited capabilities maybe not some others

Merfilly27: All persons in that family seem to be of superior stock, maybe even latent Homo Novis themselves

AGplusone: But what's the difference between Homo Sap and Homo Novis?

AGplusone: And what are the last two words of "Gulf"?

DavidWrightSr: Apparently a matter of attitude, aside from the ability to 'think better'.

Merfilly27: To me, the distinction seemed to be in how much of the brain was actually used

DavidWrightSr: Not the last two, but near the end 'I belong'

Merfilly27: and thus the corresponding control over the body

aggirlj: Exactly S.

aggirlj: Seems HN has a better one.

DavidWrightSr: That was a facetious remark about attitude, I was referring to the Olympians

AGplusone: Last two words in my copy are "FELLOW MEN."

Merfilly27: ahh

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I was looking at Gulf

AGplusone: Which is why I first began to believe that Heinlein was yanking our chain in that story.

Merfilly27: David, take a look at today's society, and probably the entire of humanity's history

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I was looking at Friday. Duh

Merfilly27: Some few stand out like the heroes of Heinlein's genius standing. Most plod along like cattle. Some stand out for being too far down the food chain

Merfilly27: Homo Novis could just as easily describe Einstein or Curie

sir iso root: Same difference.

Merfilly27: whereas Sapiens would uinclude people like me, just going thru life coping with everyday

aggirlj: Ditto

DavidWrightSr: K-B made some comment about that IIRC, saying that there always had been HN.

AGplusone: or the lead character Frederick Forsythe's "The Jackel" Homo assassin Novis

AGplusone: Nurture vs. Nature?

sir iso root: Why were they segregated from the rest of humanity? Was there a Gain? An incompatibility?

DavidWrightSr: But if that were the case, I would think that some of the characteristics that made them HN would have eventually gotten in a large number of descendants.

AGplusone: Friday would have probably been a first class doxy, wouldn't she, if Hartley never came back.

Merfilly27: David Palmer's Emergence dealt well with the nature vs nurture theory on geniuses

AGplusone: Theodosia the Great?

Merfilly27: I'm not conviced of that David

sir iso root: But the sequel was a cop-out.

AGplusone: Madame Pompadour ... Justine?

sir iso root: This is weird. Have to read up for saturday...

pjscott100 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Pete ...

aggirlj: Yes, me too J-V, have to finish it.

pjscott100: hey, did I miss the fun? Got caught up in a weird problem

AGplusone: [how's Matilda? <veg>]

AGplusone: we're taking a break ... what problem?

pjscott100: Work

AGplusone: curse of the drinking class

sir iso root: Well, I'll be here for as long as I stay awake.

AGplusone: [my dinner just arrived ... Greek]

Merfilly27: [Dawg]

aggirlj: I did Corned Beef and Cabbage, had the worst on St. P's day.

pjscott100: How was the discussion?

Merfilly27: been wanting a real lamb gyro with baklava on the side

pjscott100: You lika da juice?

AGplusone: mousakh?

DavidWrightSr: Good discussion. Mostly on topic. It's going to take me a while to get the log up and posted as I am really snowed under at work and there were over a 120 pre-chat posts on a.f.h. which I have to add in.

pjscott100: SNL reference... never mind

aggirlj: That's nevermind.

AGplusone: . . . if it's a good one, /ga, please.

sir iso root: b

Merfilly27: [sounds good, David[]

AGplusone: [btw, I propose we wait to see what's posted and go for the next interesting topic of interest posting by anyone ... ad hoc. . . . unless someone wants to suggest a next topic]

sir iso root: Gees. yor not gointa add the posts to the log are ya?

AGplusone: "interesting" topic of "interest" arrgh!

AGplusone: Always do ....

pjscott100: department of redundancy department

AGplusone: that one!

DavidWrightSr: Hey everyone.Take a look at the Heinlein Society page. New emphasis on Blood Drives and list of conventions hosting upcoming Blood drives. You bet I add the posts. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, or as we say

DavidWrightSr: in Orthodoxy. vo veki vekov

Merfilly27: Only RAH I have even read recently besides these two stories was Requiem

aggirlj: Saw it, really jumps out.

AGplusone: The department of redundancy department was downsized today as redundant.

pjscott100: I have reread all Heinlein within the last 2 years except for Between Planets

pjscott100: Having trouble finding that one and library doesn't have it

sir iso root: Take Back Your Government?

pjscott100: Yes, that too

pjscott100: I have it

sir iso root: Tramp Royale?

AGplusone: Got a letter from a seventh grader the other day ... for his class. Asked about Between Planets and asked me to reply as if I were Heinlein ....

DavidWrightSr: Ha! piker. I have re-read all of Heinlein every couple of years since I started in 1953. 8-)

pjscott100: But of course

Merfilly27: DavidSr, do you add the cons that are expected to hold Drives?

AGplusone: Would I be writing stuff like that today, or would I be writing stuff that really applies to today's world?

pjscott100: Ah well, I have an excuse to visit some more book stores... there are some just wonderful ones here

AGplusone: So help me, that's what he asked?

aggirlj: Was this a Robin Williams clone as he does little ones?

DavidWrightSr: I had a copy of TBYG, but I think that it was stolen from me by a co-worker and Perot supporter. Big Heinlein fan however.

sir iso root: Okay, boast mode: Why did Heinlein start writing SF?

DavidWrightSr: If you know of cons that I haven't listed, please send them to me, I'll put them up right away

pjscott100: If I could reply as if I were Heinlein, I would have a different job...

Merfilly27: Heroes Con in Charlotte NC has one every year, Father's Day weekend

AGplusone: Because he could, by extrapolation take today's events and place them in the future in a new way to challange development?

Merfilly27: That's the only one I know

pjscott100: Like asking parish vicar to channel Jesus

DavidWrightSr: Is there a blood drive scheduled for it?

AGplusone: Be a good one to start a blood drive at Merfilly ....

Merfilly27: They do have a drive every year

DavidWrightSr: Ok Jussi. Do you need a straight man on that question?

AGplusone: Offer our support (in the form of a young lady named Stephanie ... and others)?

sir iso root: Because Hitler decided to enter Konrad Henlein as the fuhrer of sudeten germany.

Merfilly27: never skip it, since it is held in honor of the Children's Bunr Fund, which is Heroes' pet charity

AGplusone: And Robert lost the election to Lyon.

Merfilly27: Burn

AGplusone: I've heard that, but never seen it in writing ....

AGplusone: Konrad Henlein, aka the Quisling of Austria.

pjscott100: http://www.enter.net/~torve/critics/Perry/perryA.htm

AGplusone: Tom Perry's Monad article?

pjscott100: only mention of Konrad Heinlein and Robert Heinlein on same page

RMLWJ1: Well, I'm off, folks. Surgery in AM, probably. Got to be semi-alert. Sleep well, all.

pjscott100: Most surgeons prefer their patients not to be alert...

DavidWrightSr: Performing or undergoing. Either way, good luck.

pjscott100: Good luck!

aggirlj: Bye. I've got to go too. Will be more involved on Saturday. See you later.

RMLWJ1: X-raying.

DavidWrightSr: You a radiologist?

sir iso root: Seeya on sattarday.

RMLWJ1: Radiographer.

DavidWrightSr: So long Jussi

aggirlj: Bye J-V

aggirlj has left the room.

AGplusone: The anecedote by Pournelle is erroneous. Charles Lyon was the name of the Republican who defeated Yorty.

sir iso root: Uh. I'm staying.

RMLWJ1 has left the room.

sir iso root: Just said bye to jane.

AGplusone: who defeated Heinlein rather, not Yorty

pjscott100: I must go too... sorry I missed the discussion. Ah, fickle time.

Merfilly27: it's thinning out in here

pjscott100 has left the room.

Merfilly27: must be going too...I hear a chilidog calling my name

Merfilly27: evening

Merfilly27 has left the room.

sir iso root: One silly thing I've been thinking of is: Why not have a formal debate?

AGplusone: How would you set it up?

DavidWrightSr: Sounds like someone is volunteering

sir iso root: First have a postulating phaze.

sir iso root: people telling what they believe.

DavidWrightSr: How about 'Reading Heinlein damages young minds' vs 'Reading Heinlein is good for young minds' or something like that?

AGplusone: Postulate one: ....

sir iso root: And or what they could argue against.

DavidWrightSr: We could find some of the troll bait that has been on afh and use that as a basis.O:-)

sir iso root: And at some point make the decision at the appropriate point so that it would go half and half.

AGplusone: I wouldn't do that! ;-)

sir iso root: A different meeting for both sides of the argument, and then a meeting to argue.

DavidWrightSr: 'Was Heinlein Really a Libertarian?"

sir iso root: No, there is the sweet bit. The Argument would have to be subdivided ever and ever...

AGplusone: Why don't you post several suggestions of two-sided postulates, Jussi, and we'll vote on them, then set a meeting ....

AGplusone: Wife has just informed me to

sir iso root: But The central postulation would be decided so they would be evenly divided.

AGplusone: "Come and get it or eat cold shoulder!"

AGplusone: How do they translate that idiom in Glory Road, Jussi?

sir iso root: What idiom?

DavidWrightSr: Eating cold shoulder?

sir iso root: I'm stumped?

AGplusone: "cold shoulder" is what you get from your wife or girlfriend when she's mad at you.

AGplusone: Remember the scene when Oscar fails to realize he's really supposed to sleep with the Doral's wife and daughters? The next morning they get fed a joint with congealed fat.

sir iso root: I WAS making a joke there.

AGplusone: Star sez, "I refuse to accept cold shoulder!"

sir iso root: potty.

AGplusone: which is really a super snub ...

AGplusone: Anyhow, I must goooooo!

DavidWrightSr: FWIW, I think that the idea of debates is a great one. I agree with David J-V. you should write it up and post it on afh.

AGplusone: So, making copy ....

DavidWrightSr: I've got complete log. Is your system doing any better on saving logs?

sir iso root: i'll certainly think about it.

AGplusone: Not sure yet.

DavidWrightSr: We could have our own seminars in 'Doubt' (Space Cadet)

sir iso root: :-)

AGplusone: See you .... all. bye ::::::poof:::::::

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night David

DavidWrightSr: I got to go too. Enjoyed it greatly. See ya Saturday?

sir iso root: da.

DavidWrightSr: ochen xorosho. do svidanije

sir iso root has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:04 P.M. EST

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