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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Saturday 3-17-2001 5:00 P.M. EST

Compare/Contrast Don Harvey(BP) and Juan Rico(ST)

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Here Begins The Discussion Log

==========================================================================

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

ddavitt: Hi SA, didn't think it would let me sign on; this is my third go.

SAcademy: I'm glad you made it.

ddavitt: Hi SA, was beginning to think I was all alone.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hello there Kultsi

SAcademy: Hello Kultsi.

KultsiKN: Hello Jane, Ginny!

SAcademy: How is Helsinki today, Kultsi?

KultsiKN: We had a bright, sunny, crisp spring day. Very nice!

ddavitt: We are in the middle of another snow storm. Very depressing

ddavitt: When will spring arrive?!

ddavitt: Or we may move again I suppose; hard to know what will happen.

SAcademy: I wish I knew. It's cold here too.

ddavitt: Well, I don't know where everyone is....

SAcademy: I don't know either.

ddavitt: But the topic is the same as Thursday Kultsi; comparing the two young soldiers, Juan Rico and Don harvey

ddavitt: And next chat we are to have Joel Rosenberg as a visitor

ddavitt: Have you read any of his books?

SAcademy: That should be fun.

ddavitt: I am looking forward to it; David and I have been reading his boks since we met

SAcademy: No, I don't think so. I can't read books now, you know.

KultsiKN: I must admit, I don't know too much of either :-(

ddavitt: He has been writing since the early 1980's

SAcademy: yes, I was corresponding with him back then.

ddavitt: Fantasy, D and D people crossing over into the fantasy world, mercenary soldier SF, lots of stuff

KultsiKN: But I'm looking forward to the Joel chat.

ddavitt: good! I'm hoping to get my husband david ( so many David's!) to sit in too.

SAcademy: Does he know Mr. R?

ddavitt: Have you read Starship troopers and Between planets Kultsi?

ddavitt: No but he loves the books

ddavitt: Joel has posted to afh a few times and on other groups.

ddavitt: One person who does know Joel in person is ging to host; Will reich

SAcademy: I've seen some of his posts.

ddavitt: He posts to afh; remember him Kultsi?

ddavitt: I enjoyed the Mother Thing songs that Jim did Ginny; he emailed them to me

SAcademy: Nice of him. I'd like to see them. Do they contain harmony or just the theme?

ddavitt: He was impressed by your technique. I don't know anything about musical theory but they sounded like the words

KultsiKN: I do remember him, I think I have an email or two as well, on something.

ddavitt: It's just an email and when you click on it, the song plays for a few seconds

SAcademy: At the time Robert was doing that book, I was taking a course in music at the local college.

SAcademy: Harmony. So he told me to write the speeches, and I did that.

ddavitt: Jim would love you to hear them I'm sure

SAcademy: I needlepointed a piano bench cover to go with the piano, and it has other music on it.

ddavitt: I've never needlepointed but I cross stich; is it similar?

ddavitt: just all in one direction/ Or is that tpaestry/

SAcademy: Robert's favorite Drorak's eighth rhapsody.

SAcademy: Hungarian

ddavitt: I know the name.

SAcademy: It's for a piano bench and now people sit onit.

ddavitt: Seems a shame after all the hard work!

Oakman 7111 has entered the room.

Oakman 7111: Hello everyone

SAcademy: Oh, well, I've done a lot of needlepinting.

ddavitt: I've been working on a large crossstich for about 3 years; i don't think I'll ever finish it

SAcademy: Greetings.

ddavitt: Hi there Jon

KultsiKN: Hello, Jon!

ddavitt: We haven't started yet; just chatting:-)

SAcademy: Someday. It wold mean less time on the computer!

Oakman 7111: :-) I just got the speech up on the website, Mrs Heinlein - along with a short editorial about copyright

ddavitt: True! And the ctas have a bad habit of batting at the needle as i work so i have to lock myself away to do it which is lonely

ddavitt: Did you get my email for the web site Jon?

SAcademy: Thank you for that. Are you familiar with the new Digital Millenium Copyright Act?

ddavitt: I have also done a short report for the library section that i sent Bill last night

Oakman 7111: yes I did - and your changes are in place take a look at Heinleinsociety.org

ddavitt: Will do.

Oakman 7111: no I'm not but I guess I better be really soon

ddavitt: We are talking about the new web page for the Heinlein Society Kultsi

SAcademy: The new main page looks great!!!

Oakman 7111: thank you

ddavitt: AG has just arrived but I don't know if he plans to join us

Oakman 7111: do you like the picture - am I breaking copyright there?

Oakman 7111: He told me earlier that he "might" depending on the basketball game

ddavitt: :-)

SAcademy: The earlier one didn't have any oomph to it.

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: just talking about you O basketball fan

Oakman 7111: no, it was a 12 hour job, just to get it done in time for the meeting

Oakman 7111: or did you mean the original site?

AGplusone: Hi, everyone. [UCLA 75, Utah 50, we get Duck next]

SAcademy: There is one picture on the web, all over te place and I can't figure out how it got out. I took it--it's of Robert in his study and I took it from above. It was an experiment.

Oakman 7111: Duck is?

ddavitt: err...OK!

Oakman 7111: Yes, I think I've seen it

SAcademy: It must the in about ten places.

AGplusone: School in North Carolina. They pronounce it "Duke" but everyone knows it's Duck.

SAcademy: The basketball ,adness?

AGplusone: yes, that madness

SAcademy: madness.

AGplusone:

ddavitt: It's not a sport I follow so it doesn't mean much to me :-(

AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi ...

ddavitt: not big in the UK at all

KultsiKN: Hello, David!

SAcademy: JWC was a student there for a whilre.

Oakman 7111: I used to like it, then they started using mutants

AGplusone: Wasn't played on "fields of Eton" ...

ddavitt: The ones who don't need to jump anymore to score you ean?

Oakman 7111: My father got his master's there in '41

AGplusone: at Eton or Duke

ddavitt: No; too clean; we like to get muddy

Oakman 7111: exactly.

Oakman 7111: Duke, sorry

AGplusone: Got an interesting letter forwarded about Between Planets to the Heinlein Society

SAcademy: Who is supposed to be running this ?

Oakman 7111: Jane - can't you tell?

Oakman 7111: :-)

ddavitt: The chat you mean?

SAcademy: Yes.

ddavitt: Sorry, screen went allfrozen there

AGplusone: High school student in Arizona asking questions: wants to know how old Don is, since Dr. Jefferson took him into a 'strip joint' as he terms it.

ddavitt: Yes, me Sorry. we should start

ddavitt: Almost 18 from the context

ddavitt: His friend jack is about to have a birthday

Oakman 7111: Exactly

ddavitt: maybe Don is already

AGplusone: Which raised a point in my mind: Don is quite a bit more sophisticated than Juan, I always thought.

ddavitt: Isn't 18 old enough in chicago?

ddavitt: No; look how he blushes at the girls

AGplusone: Well, maybe not in Arizona these days ...

ddavitt: He drools over the waitress

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: He's been on a ranch for 7 years after all

ddavitt: Hi Bill

Oakman 7111: He goes to a "fleshpot" not a strip joint

BPRAL22169: yo. Sorry I'm late.

AGplusone: true, but he also has a 'booklegger' something Juan wouldn't have been interested in reading

ddavitt: Juan had rich indulgent parents and libved in town

SAcademy: Hello,

ddavitt: I love that booklegger remark; so many implications

BPRAL22169: Hi, Ginny. Your letter to Tony arrived a few minutes ago.

AGplusone: I know, Ginny, but imagine the mindset of the hitherlands ... "strip joint" ...

KultsiKN: I just popped in to say hi; I'm too drowsy to be any good, and my son is AIM:ing me from Stockholm for the first time in two months, so I bid you G'bye!

BPRAL22169: There is no way of saying "tyranny" any quicker than "booklegger."

ddavitt: And had to eat baby moveovers..

SAcademy: It waws required. It was a thank you

AGplusone: Have a question about Finland ... Kultsi

AGplusone: are there many Heinlein fans there?

ddavitt: Yes; two syllables to paint a nasty picture

KultsiKN: GA, David

ddavitt: Um, make that 3 syllables

BPRAL22169: In some ways that's worse than Niven's scare-term, "organlegger."

ddavitt: Night Kultsi, thanks for coming

Oakman 7111: booklegger is two syllables in Canada?

ddavitt: yes, take my kidneys but don't touch my books!

ddavitt: Catch up Jon:-)

AGplusone: the website we're creating for THS has links for Italy, the land of Oz, England, etc. ... any reason why you wouldn't want to be Finland?

Oakman 7111: sorry hit enter before the scroll caught up

ddavitt: I forgive you!

ddavitt: And look at the book that is banned

AGplusone: And maybe cook up a charter in Scandinavia

ddavitt: Didn;t we search for it once?

Oakman 7111: Hey we can do a 3 D globe that spins and you click on the countries highlighted to make contact with that branch!

ddavitt: Chamberlains Theory of Colonial Expansion

KultsiKN: I don't really know for sure, David. Must be, because several books have been translated into Finnish, starting with 'Rocket Ship Galileo' in the 50s...

ddavitt: Cool!

ddavitt: And a dot for each society member maybe

AGplusone: The society in Between Planets divides into a society of 'sophistication' and repression, whereas in Troopers pretty much no problems with anything in way of thought ...

SAcademy: What is that Kultsi? There has been only one

AGplusone: And there's sort of an "end of the cycle" about the Earth society in Between Planets, a smell of decadence

AGplusone: contrasting with the frontier society of Venus ...

BPRAL22169: The Starship Troopers society is pretty unified -- it's not "decadent" in the way the Between Planets Society is (the way Nietzsche uses the term)

ddavitt: Yes; it's called a modern babylon

AGplusone: Exactly ... that entire chapter in Between Planets when Don gets taken out to dinner was a carefully crafted portrayal of decadence ...

Oakman 7111: Troopers is also facing a common, non-human enemy - whereas the "enemy" in Planets is "us"

AGplusone: which Don fits into without much question

ddavitt: Including the bugs in the cabs

ddavitt: yet jack still wants to fight for earth; not clear cut

AGplusone: One gets the feeling the citizens in Troopers wouldn't even bother to think of bugging the taxpayers ...

BPRAL22169: Well, yes, it's decadent that way -- but Nietzsche uses the term in a slightly different way: a "decadent" society is one that leaves out basic truths, so there are important parts of the "human experience" that aren't explained by or encompassed by the dominating myth of that society.

Oakman 7111: It read like Germany, in maybe '36....

ddavitt: He's no villain, he's using loyalty of birth place over any feelings of justice

AGplusone: I agree, Bill, and I thought so too, Jon

BPRAL22169: The H&MP classes in ST show us that the ST society hasn't left out anything important.

KultsiKN: Sorry, Ginny! 'Space Cadet'

AGplusone: Good German ... ve haf alvays been in der Wermacht ...

BPRAL22169: So it's a more homogenous society

AGplusone: since Bismark

Oakman 7111: Bill

SAcademy: That was the only one, Kultsi!

Oakman 7111: that's actually a great reason for the class, now that i think of it

ddavitt: Does anyone have any sympathy for the federation?

AGplusone: I do!

ddavitt: ga David

SAcademy: Who would???

KultsiKN: That was the first; since then several; Cat and others.

ddavitt: Well, I do a bit :-)

AGplusone: Imagine: a huge bureaucracy encompassing all those people ... civil servants who know nothing else ...

ddavitt: Presumably they financed the settlers and they want a return on their investment

SAcademy: Well, if those were published in Finnish, it was without a contract!

AGplusone: The Navy cruising on ... being told what the ptb want them to know ... just doing their duty

BPRAL22169: Urk! more piracy.

ddavitt: How would we feel if we set up a colony on the moon and it revolted? I'd be pretty mad

Oakman 7111: Yes, The federation isn't vil - it's just beaurcratic - like the Empire in Freehold....

AGplusone: suddenly encompassed in a sphere ... what hoppened?

BPRAL22169: It wouldn't revolt if it were treated properly.

Oakman 7111: isn't evil..

SAcademy: Piracy is all over the place, everywhere I turn!

ddavitt: Wouldn't it/

ddavitt: Just what did the frds do to venus?

ddavitt: I know what the Company did in red planet

AGplusone: Like the Tories in the Revolution ... had to leave everything when "the world turned upsidedown"

BPRAL22169: Canada didn't. New Zealand didn't. They're still trying to crawl underneath Britannia's skirts (less now than before, admittedly)

ddavitt: But not obviuos what the grievances are on Venus

ddavitt: Canada and the Uk have no links really

AGplusone: off to make a new life in Halifax or Bermuda

Oakman 7111: Some of my ancestors had to leave NY and move to Nova Scotia

BPRAL22169: Actually, absentee landlordism, I thought.

ddavitt: Queen is on the bank notes that's about it

BPRAL22169: Aha! A tory in the woodpile!

AGplusone: But we were Loyal!

BPRAL22169: Jane, that's the water you're swimming in.

SAcademy: Acadoams?

BPRAL22169: Toronto is so british, it hurts.

KultsiKN: Oh goodness! I'll look into this.

AGplusone: Just like the Cavaliers in 16xx ...

BPRAL22169: Scots-british, actually.

ddavitt: I think the distance made it inevitable that the planets would revolt..and just as inevitable that soon after there would have to be peace in order to trade

BPRAL22169: Tronna-the-good is not yet dead.

ddavitt: Venus wasn't totally self sufficient

BPRAL22169: Not inevitable.

AGplusone: Neither were the colonies

ddavitt: Really? i haven't noticed that when I've been there Bill

Oakman 7111: When the brits lost the US, they changed their policies, didn't they?

BPRAL22169: If earth had tried to get along with the colonies on a confederal basis, they wouldn't have had to revolt. instead they tried to work a mercantilist scheme, thereby guaranteeing a revolt.

ddavitt: dunno

BPRAL22169: Again, Jane, it's the water you swim in.

BPRAL22169: What you try to control, you kill.

ddavitt: We are fro different backgrounds Bill. it's what makes discussions more..interesting sometimes

BPRAL22169: (going back to the colonialism thread)

KultsiKN: Must be off. See y'all another time! Bye!

AGplusone: Would the Anglo Indians have revolted if it hadn't been for the Mutiny?

Oakman 7111: Bye Kultsi!

ddavitt: I think it would have been better for earth to give in gracefully..but not very likely

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: See ya, Kultsi ... Jon, send him a letter, please.

Oakman 7111: I will indeed

BPRAL22169: I noticed it immediately when I was in Toronto for TorCon. The whole convention was giggling over it.

ddavitt: Heinlein could have written it differently but I think he wanted to explore history in a futuristic setting.

BPRAL22169: (small exaggeration)

ddavitt: Again, emphasing the inevitability of it

ddavitt: Well, I've lived in the Uk for 33 years, canada for 4 and Toronto is way cleaner

AGplusone: Pournelle thought the same thing would be required as well, but he thought there'd be an Empire stemming from the colonies to unify the outlaying worlds

BPRAL22169: It's not inevitable in all circumstances. Heinlein didn't think it was inevitable in all circumstances -- just in the circumstances he chose for his story.

ddavitt: Less beggars, less feeling of danger

Oakman 7111: I miss the days when Mars and Venus were inhabitable

BPRAL22169: The Italian colonies never revolted against Greece or Phoenicia, for example.

AGplusone: ah, but they will be.

BPRAL22169: Greece did not have a mercantilist relationship with her colonies.

ddavitt: Yes; someone said that to me recently; how SF can't be the same now science has overtaken it

AGplusone: terraforming

Oakman 7111: Jane I think they first said that to Hugo Gernsback

Oakman 7111: or maybe it was Jules verne

ddavitt: Could be!

AGplusone: if we do get to the planets, but the stars gap too far out, there'll be terraforming ... waste two useful worlds otherwise

Oakman 7111: The day we get quantum computers, the world will turn upside down - again

ddavitt: I was grilling them about heinlein books on shelves in libraries and the talk drifted..as it does

AGplusone: as well as the Jovian moons

AGplusone: and Titan

ddavitt: That gets mentioned in BP; moving them around

BPRAL22169: (but usually the talk drifts TO Heinlein)

AGplusone: And "Misfit"

ddavitt: Well that's where we started. I checked out Tunnel today...just to keep it safe

AGplusone: So, perhaps, the reason Don Harvey is more ambivalent about loyalty to Earth-Venus-Mars (take your pick) is the decadence of the society

AGplusone: what am I to pick?

ddavitt: Does the independence thing crop up in ST? that is way more in the future of course

Oakman 7111: Or the fact that there's not the clear cut choice in what is a civil war

AGplusone: he's not sold on any of the three at the beginning

ddavitt: He lets events influence him from a neutral start

Major oz has entered the room.

ddavitt: earth goes cos they are mean to him, lucky and Dr

ddavitt: Hi Oz

Oakman 7111: Hail Oz, the great and Powerful

Major oz: hi, all

ddavitt: mars isn't really a factor; Venus is all that's left

AGplusone: how'd Gon ZAG a do, Oz?

Oakman 7111: And Venus is home because it's the first place he begins to take responsibility for himself, perhaps?

Major oz: ....I ain't paying attention to the b-ball people

ddavitt: maybe; it has links to his early life too which may be a factor

Major oz: OakMan, have we met under other names?

Oakman 7111: yes, but 17 is often when we leave the links and reinvent ourselves

Oakman 7111: Oz, sorry, - I'm Jon Ogden

Oakman 7111: aka Ogden the Lesser

ddavitt: Just noticed; no log running. can a few of us save this for Dave?

ddavitt: ignore that Jon,very childish

Major oz: ...indeed -- a name to take pride in.....

BPRAL22169: But you don't want to be accused of the crime of Socrates, now...

ddavitt: which was/ playing straight man

Oakman 7111: Amen I'll be lesser to OJ anyday

AGplusone: Is "den" a cognate of "win" in Anglo-Saxon?

Oakman 7111: It means dweller or man of

Oakman 7111: or man from, I suppose

Major oz: It refers to something that happened yesterday, if you are Norweigan

ddavitt: Does Donald mean anything incidentally?

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

SAcademy: In which language?

ddavitt: Hi sean

Major oz: yo, sean

AGplusone: Hi, Sean.

Gaeltachta: Hi Jane.

Oakman 7111: Hi Sean

SAcademy: Hello, Sean

ddavitt: English; usually the names in the books have meanings

Gaeltachta: Hi All!

ddavitt: Well, mostly in SIASL..

ddavitt: but in some others too

SAcademy: Robert selected names of chracters with great care.

ddavitt: thought it might mean wanderer maybe..

ddavitt: In all the books?

Gaeltachta: Sorry I'm late........... Teenagers! AArrrggh!

SAcademy: Yes, I think so.

ddavitt: Where's that baby name book?....

Gaeltachta: What name are we talking about?

SAcademy: He used that one, too.

DenvToday has entered the room.

Oakman 7111: Hello Denv

SAcademy: Good afternoon.

Major oz: Hi, there

ddavitt: Hi

ddavitt: Donald

DenvToday: Greetings all

Gaeltachta: G'day.

DenvToday: Good to see you

Major oz: Were we looking at name origins?

ddavitt: Yes

Major oz: for Don Harvey ?

ddavitt: I wondered if Don meant anything that related to the story

Oakman 7111: Was Isaac a reference to Asimov, too?

ddavitt: I just thought it was to Sir isaac

AGplusone: The dragons had obvious referent names ...

AGplusone: Sir Isaac Newton

ddavitt: Joke at the end on NOTB; here comes Arthur, isaac and robert and it's not the three you think:-)

Major oz: There was reference to another: Albert Einstein

SAcademy: The garbage collector.

Oakman 7111: Yes, I just wondered if it was double-edged - as RAH used it in Number of the Beast

AGplusone: Isobel

ddavitt: Usually someone they admired and the dragon was a scientist too

AGplusone: unusual name

AGplusone: Unless you finance Colombo

ddavitt: english name

Major oz: As a poet might name himself Longfellow, eh ?

ddavitt: yes. i liked the cockney one too

ddavitt: Don had a Venerian name too; Mist on the waters

DenvToday: My copy of NOTB--my third so far--has gone the way of book lenders everywhere. One of my friends moved out of town with it.

Gaeltachta: There was a Texan dragon as well.

ddavitt: Sounded quite Hiawathan if you want to bring Longfellow in again.

DenvToday: My 4th is on order from Amazon.com. lol Oh well...

ddavitt: I have a spare if you need it

Oakman 7111: DONALD (m) "world rule" from the Gaelic name Domhnall, which is composed of the Celtic elements dubno "world" and val "rule". Kings of Scotland have borne this name.

DenvToday: Thanks ddavit, but it's on the way.

ddavitt: I have donated it to the book swap on afh but no one has grabbed it yet

ddavitt: Never mind

Major oz: Interesting how learning a language can give you an accent....I have a friend who married a lady from Japan. He is from Mississippi and her English has an odd mix of Japaneese and Southrun.

AGplusone: Trying to remember a scientist named Harvey

DenvToday: Henry Kissinger once said that he speaks German with an American accent, and English with a German accident.

ddavitt: donald = proud ruler

Major oz: discoverer of blood flow

Oakman 7111: I need to replace Between Planets now. My copy's binding gave up the ghost this week

AGplusone: ah, that's right

BPRAL22169: Demonstrated the flow of blood through thebody, ca. 1560

Oakman 7111: Same site I got donald from says that Isabel, isobel is "daughter of Baal"

ddavitt: isobel = beautiful lonely one

ddavitt: Can have different meaning sometimes; not an exact science

Oakman 7111: I like your explanations better

ddavitt: She does seem lonely in the book

ddavitt: Don is company for her

Major oz: Are we to assume that each name in each book had an "insider's" meaning ?

Oakman 7111: Why is she lonely?

ddavitt: But I have never ever hidden anything in my bra!

AGplusone: we whose job is to sit and wait

ddavitt: I got the impression not many people her age on Venus

Oakman 7111: she should've been very popular, yes?

DenvToday: I was reading Neil Schulman's interview the other day, and I was struck by how carefully RAH chose his characters' names.

ddavitt: Frontier town; and she's quite, well, posh

Oakman 7111: and posh means rich?

Major oz: What was his fascination with "michael / mike" ?

AGplusone: daughter of a factorum or the equivalent ....

ddavitt: true..but we never see any other friends and Don makes none either

ddavitt: Not necessarily but usually

DenvToday: One was Michael (archangel) the other Mycroft. As in Holmes.

Major oz: Can't think of where, now, but I recall mike/michael elsewhere, also -- though minor players.

ddavitt: Costello; what nationality would that be?

AGplusone: Italian

DenvToday: Italian

Gaeltachta: Just out of interest - How many characters were named "Robert"?

Oakman 7111: Michael is the patron of soldiers

AGplusone: The doctor in IWFNE

BPRAL22169: Bob Wilson

ddavitt: And lots of Chinese too...very mixed, like US in the heyday of immigration

Major oz: Yes, Jon...from the Archangel

DenvToday: Bob Cratchit. Oh wait, wrong author. Sorry.

Gaeltachta: Yes....... there were a few Rob/Bobs

ddavitt: Bob in Tunnel

Major oz: yes.....but Thorby, Pinero, some of the odd ones.

ddavitt: The doctor who marries Carmen

ddavitt: pinero we found; playwright

Gaeltachta: Yes...... but no simiarities with RAH really is there?

ddavitt: Thor; god of thunder?

ddavitt: The doctor?

Dehede011 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Thor = son of the wise god, odin

Major oz: yo, will

ddavitt: Hi Ron

Dehede011: Afternoon Folks.

SAcademy: Hello Ron.

Major oz: sorry....ron

Dehede011: Hi Jane

Gaeltachta: G'day

Major oz: keep mixing you up

Dehede011: Oops and everybody.

DenvToday: Hello

ddavitt: We are looking at names in BP and elsewhere

Major oz: Zim ?

ddavitt: trying to wring a few drops of significance :-)

Dehede011: G'day Y'all. Southern Australia, don't you know?

DenvToday: Eastern Colorado here.

ddavitt: They don't all have to be meaningful, or he would've ended up with some strange names..

Gaeltachta: LOL....... Shucks.

ddavitt: but some are. Fun to find them

Major oz: .....my point, Jane

Major oz: When to care and when not to.

Major oz: Other than the obvious ones, I don't pay attention.

ddavitt: well, looks like Donald isn't a real match...

Dehede011: I wonder if RAH had a rule about when to use meaningful names or if it was more whimsical.

Major oz: He is on a very wet planet -- Donald Duck ??????

AGplusone: I still think Donald has the more mature mind than Juan

ddavitt: Curious how both books open at the same age for the leads; just leaving school

AGplusone: more conflicted

Oakman 7111: Harvey as a first name means "bitter." Acrimonious, polished, urbane. is liable to brood over imaginary wades impositions. He is at his best when in the company of women.

AGplusone: more of a seeker

Dehede011: More mystery up front in BP

ddavitt: He has had to satnd on his own two feet from 11; bound to make a difference

Oakman 7111: Juan has grown up in a protected environment.

ddavitt: Rico was cushioned by wealth

Dehede011: Juan had a more certain world

ddavitt: But still a big shock to them both.

Oakman 7111: Non-Citizens aren't required to make the kind of decisions that encourage you to grow up

AGplusone: YES

ddavitt: Don was never a Thorby; always looked after and never in danger or unhappy

AGplusone: I think Don is very unhappy, almost alienated

AGplusone: ... a pariah in school

Oakman 7111: really? i didn't get that

Major oz: Don is the boarding-school kid. All the classic symptoms.

ddavitt: No I don't think so

Gaeltachta: What about Don as in "The Godfather"? Everyone would like to kiss his ring!(....so to speak)

ddavitt: teased about the saddle maybe but he has friends

Dehede011: You know we could do a session just on the different types RAH used for his male juvenile lead. He didn't use stock characters/situations at all.

AGplusone: Imagine: you're a kid whose parents have gone back to Germany to attend the great building of the Third Reich and war is about to start

Oakman 7111: Yes, and there's no indication that the anti-colonial feelings have been prevalent until recently

DenvToday: RAH quote, 1973: "If you don't use commonplace names then you invest a character with something unusual by his name. Now, Dr. Jubal Harshaw is an unusual name and there's a reson for it...there are overtones in the thing. Jonathan Hoag is an unusual name, and I spent a lot of time picking that name. But ordinarily I use very commonplace names because I want the reader to identify;..."

Major oz: agree, Ron; but they always follow a similar path.

ddavitt: Just noticed; doctor's name is Jefferson; THAT has to be significant

AGplusone: It's pretty clear that Don is going to be, at best, interned for the duration

DenvToday: "...this is an everyman character."

ddavitt: He could have declared for earth and been safe i think

Oakman 7111: And the internment of the Japaneses would have been very fresh in '50

Dehede011: Major they all grow but from very different beginnings

AGplusone: No, not in that society ... they'd have bugged his armpits

ddavitt: Yes; that was mostly in California too wasn't it?

AGplusone: Yes, internment of all the Niesi

ddavitt: sad events

Oakman 7111: yes, that was where the invasion was expected

Major oz: Agree, but I sense that all his Juvies are about growth. Perhaps different start and end points, but the path must be trod.

AGplusone: They also interned some German-American and Italian-Americans

Dehede011: But the Japanese were no better thought of in the rest of the country -- there just weren't as many elsewhere

AGplusone: not many, but those who had been politically active, especially before coming over

Oakman 7111: I dont think they were feared as they were in CA

ddavitt: The point was that they weren't japanese...they were Americans...

AGplusone: For example: John Basilone's parents were briefly interned at the beginning of the war in San Franciso because the old man had been active politically in the old country

Dehede011: Yes Jane, I am embarrassed by what we did. But given the reality of the emotion I thank God we didn't act worse.

Oakman 7111: In Vietnam, I never did learn how to tell a VC from a loyalist, just by looking at them

ddavitt: Yes. We all have events in our history that we now would like to do over

Oakman 7111: I understand the fear, even if the results bother me a lot

ddavitt: Governments panic.

ddavitt: People do too

DenvToday: We forgot the violations of the Constitution in wartime. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for years and put tens of thousands in jail for voicing unpopular opinions.

Dehede011: Sorry Jane, "embarrassed and ashamed."

Major oz: Michner's Hawaii gives a small arguement for the internment fear.

ddavitt: I have read a bit about it and i can understand why it happened and why you feel that way too.

Oakman 7111: And he took over one state legislature and divided another in two

AGplusone: people look around for potential fifth columnists ... anyone who has ever dissented is one place they look

ddavitt: I got the feeling that Don was one step ahead of trouble the whole book; jumping just ahead of a bullet with his name on it

AGplusone: wrote letters criticisizing the government

Oakman 7111: Newver trust a guy wearinga robe and a halo. he's definitely a fifth columnist

Dehede011: I remember being seven years old and listening to all the old folks talk on the evening of that Sunday. I could only pick up the emotion -- I thought a Japanese must be some sort of a wild animal -- maybe like a rabid wolf.

AGplusone: have read the wrong books

AGplusone: written the wrong sentiments

AGplusone: especially if he has a lot of gold, right, Jon?

Oakman 7111: definitely

ddavitt: i liked reading that when they were forced to sell their land, people bought it and gave it back to them after it all ended; not all to be ashamed of.

AGplusone: where?

DenvToday: I'm old enough to remember that "polite society" still called Japanese-Americans "Japs" when I was a kid.

ddavitt: In California

AGplusone: Ha!

Dehede011: I heard other stories from a couple of Niesei friends later, Jane

ddavitt: Not always of course..but in towns where they had friends and were respected part of the community

AGplusone: Remind me to send you one of Bill Mauldin's cartoons Jane

Oakman 7111: I have some original cartoons from the early '40's It was amazing the virulence that was used to attack them

ddavitt: Did that never happen then/ You all will know more of it than i do

DenvToday: Yes, overtly racist.

Major oz: Easy focus

AGplusone: Two anglo grocers standing under a sign crossed out that used to say: Tadeo Nishimini, but now says Joe Blotz, America for Americans, one says to the other:

Major oz: Background of the movie: Bad Day at Black Rock

Oakman 7111: On the other hand, we did better by the japanese, they they did by the haoles

Dehede011: My friends family had to break up a family heirloom Samarai Sword and put it down an old fashioned outhouse to keep it from being shamed.

Gaeltachta: "Snow Falling on Cedars" covered some of this. Was it fairly accurate?

AGplusone: Well, we don't have to worry about ownership of this stand. The owner got killed in action in Italy.

DenvToday: David, a bit reminiscent of Kristal Nacht.

ddavitt: quite; so many interned had sons who were fighting for the US

Dehede011: Lets face it. It was shameful.

Major oz: Having spent time in Micronesia, I have a whole different perspective on the Japan of the 20's,30's, and 40's.

AGplusone: I thought Snow Falling was pretty accurate in tone

Oakman 7111: Maybe this is the wrong time, but I'd love to hear that Oz

ddavitt: To go back then, do we think this may have influenced the book, written in 1950 ish?

Gaeltachta: Ok........just wondered.

Major oz: Agree, Ron, by todays morals

DenvToday: Major, I understand that viewpoint. But there wer Japanese, not Japanese-Americans.

DenvToday: they were, that is.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Will

AGplusone: 'lo Will

Oakman 7111: Greetings Will

DenvToday: Hello!

Dehede011: Agreed Major we were so scared I am thankful we didn't act worse.

Major oz: Ever hear of the "money collectors" working the west coast in the late 30's and 40's ?

geeairmoe2: Happy St. Patrick's Day to ya all.

AGplusone: "Potato Famine!"

Major oz: Picking up millions to take back to Japan ?

DenvToday: Happy St. Patrick's Day to you too!

Major oz: ....specificaly to fund the war in China?

AGplusone: And they certainly did, just as today millions go back to Mexico

Oakman 7111: Think I have some potatoes tonite in honor of the destruction of the Druids

Dehede011: And Ireland

Oakman 7111: I will have

ddavitt: We have green beer on sale

ddavitt: make way more fuss here than they did in UK

Major oz: Just "temporary on the tongue", Jane

AGplusone: They were still collecting money for guns in Ireland when I was in my twenties in LA

Dehede011: I intend to have Chinese tonight -- in honor of Don Harvey

Major oz: And today in Boston !!!!!!

ddavitt: that's because they don't have to live there...

DenvToday: I intend to have Guiness Sout tonight in honor of my tastebuds.

BPRAL22169: St. paddy's day wasn't big when I was growing up in Phoenix. it was a New York and Boston thing.

Gaeltachta: St Patrick's Day is over here! But I survived .......

ddavitt: David's company has a lot of Irish employees; he put on a green shirt yesterday

Dehede011: You should have been in the Navy in the mid 50s, Bill

Major oz: The NCO clubs made a BIG thing of it.

ddavitt: After all; David davitt...could be related to michael i guess

Oakman 7111: The bars always do - like retail stores do Christmas

Dehede011: But I learned not to wear me orange shirt.

ddavitt: :-)

Major oz: aye.....

DenvToday: That's probably wise.

AGplusone: My daughter's out listening to The Quiet Man on video ... whilst our dinner steams

Oakman 7111: I went to school my senior hs year - wearing an orange shamrock of March 17th

ddavitt: The uniforms in BP; Frederation is mottled green, Venus is tan. i would have thought green blended in better

Oakman 7111: I was sent to the princiapls off.

Dehede011: What is the symbol they wear in northern Ireland. The Welsh have the leek I believe.

Oakman 7111: ice

ddavitt: shamrock

AGplusone: Off hand I would say it wasn't St. Patrick's High School, Jon ...

Dehede011: Thank you.

ddavitt: welsh wear a daffodil on st david's day

ddavitt: English a rose on St george's day

Dehede011: Who wears a leek?

ddavitt: But we don't.

ddavitt: Welsh veggie

Dehede011: When is St. Georges

ddavitt: but can't put in a buttonhole:-)

DenvToday: I was in my 20's before I learned that "Marching Through Georgia" wasn't the Georgia state song.

Oakman 7111: Well, my homeroom teacher's name was kennedy and my principal's was McBain

ddavitt: Not sure

ddavitt: Must be in summer when there are roses

AGplusone: Wear it in your cap according to Shakespeare

Major oz: How 'bout for St. Crispan's Day ??

ddavitt: A leek is a bit big!

Major oz: or is it with a "K"?

Oakman 7111: C

DenvToday: For God, Harry and St. George!"

ddavitt: St D's day was march 1

AGplusone: Wasn't that interesting what Willy the S did in Henry IV? He takes one soldier of each minority and has each reflect union

ddavitt: 23 april for george

AGplusone: before Harry says once more unto the breach

ddavitt: just checked calendar

DenvToday: Col. Sanders celebrated extra-Crispins Day.

Dehede011: Thank you.

Oakman 7111: lol

Major oz: booooooooooooooooooo

ddavitt: OK, I think we've moved off topic so how about a short break and think of neew topics?

DenvToday: I cannot be shamed. Experts have tried.

Major oz: hokay

Dehede011: Jane, does it matter if the Rose is yellow or red.

geeairmoe2: Clucking with disapproval.

AGplusone: Okay, I gotta go carve (slice) the corned beef

ddavitt: think, drink, stretch fingers whatever...

DenvToday: Horsefeathers!

ddavitt: usually red

Dehede011: Thank you.

Major oz: Interesting point, Jane. RAH is always so technically accurate. Why would the Venus troops wear tan ?

Oakman 7111: "If it becomes necessary, can you let go of that switch?" -- when Don says "yes" after thinking about it - thats when he's grown up

Dehede011: To blend in with the muddy water?

ddavitt: Exactly; it's all green; the fed troops have the right colour

Gaeltachta: The "Deadman Switch" idea was also used in COTG, wasn't it?

ddavitt: hey; stoppit! we're on a break!:-)

Gaeltachta: Or something like it?

DenvToday: Why did the South wear gray in the Civil War? I don't recall any gray trees.

ddavitt: Sheesh, just like pigs and water..I tell you to stop and you leap back on topic

Dehede011: The south wore Butternut.

Oakman 7111: Linsey-woolsey was naturall gray? (a guess)

ddavitt: Easy to dye that colour I think;used beechnuts

Major oz: There was no distinction between dress and BDU's for the War of N Agression.

ddavitt: ISTR from Gone with the wind

Major oz: only one uniform for each side

ddavitt: No thought of camoflague then

ddavitt: may have even seemed cowardly

Major oz: Can you see the USMC fighting in their Bozo outfits ?

Oakman 7111: That wasn't cricket

ddavitt: Spies were given no respect even from their own side

ddavitt: not a gentleman's job

Oakman 7111: you were supposed to give the other guy some way of knowing who you were

ddavitt: even in WW2

Major oz: Francis Marion was a camo guerilla in the Rev War.

ddavitt: war as a game...but it's not

Oakman 7111: in a way it is

Oakman 7111: there are rules

Oakman 7111: and you aren't supposed to break them

Major oz: no there ain't

DenvToday: There were rules. Napoleon...and then Grant did away with them.

Major oz: Rules have meaning only if there is an enforcement authority.

Major oz: As the biggest guy on the block, I acknowledge no rules.

Major oz: "I" speaking metaphorically, of course.

Oakman 7111: U just threw out about a quarter of the UMCJ, didn't you? If they don't abide by the rules, you can't

Major oz: can't or won't..?

ddavitt: Geneva convention amazes me

Major oz: So did Nuremburg

AGplusone: Deadman's switch was used in "The Long Watch"

ddavitt: it's a war...and you limit how nasty you can be.

Oakman 7111: can't - once torure shows up, name rank and serial number is a dead duck

Major oz: why, Jane?

Gaeltachta: Thanks David........

ddavitt: Don't get me wrong...I think it's agood but..it's not logical

Oakman 7111: Gas hasn't been used since it was "outlawed" except for possibly Sadam using it

ddavitt: If women fought...it would all be very different.

Oakman 7111: yeah, much nastier

Major oz: Yes, they would fight only 4 days a month

AGplusone: I wouldn't say Grant did away with rules. He followed the codified rules that Lincoln put in AGO 100.

ddavitt: OOH! come here and say that!

Oakman 7111: Oz, or me?

AGplusone: Reason Lincoln published AGO 100 was to keep types like Forrest from getting way far out of line

ddavitt: No, we would sort it all out over a nice cup of coffee and some timbits

Major oz: uuuhhhhhh, yeah.......

DenvToday: Grant was responsible for the wholesale murder of civilians. It was a scorched-earth policy designed to demoralize the civilian population. But Lincoln was behind it as well.

ddavitt: and use the money we saved to go shopping

AGplusone: civilians?

DenvToday: Yes, civilians.

AGplusone: them as had guns

Dehede011: How about Sheridan going through the Shennandoah Valley.

DenvToday: No, them as had farms.

Oakman 7111: God loves pressed clothes, thats why life is full of ironies

ddavitt: How can you have civialians in a civil war?

Major oz: Or cleaning out the caves on Guam

Major oz: ?

AGplusone: them as had guns ... nothing against rules of war prohibits scourched earth

ddavitt: that's what's so unreal.

ddavitt: 'I'm not playing"

Major oz: LeMay was very effective.

DenvToday: ddavitt, we did not have a Civil War. That term implies two factions warring to control a nation. We had a war of seccession.

Dehede011: How about our basic bombing strategy if we had fought the Soviet all out.

ddavitt: remember ST when the civilans remark is made?

AGplusone: You burn farms ... to deny support to the enemy

Major oz: You mean if the cold war got hot?

ddavitt: The idea that civilians are untouchable is naive

AGplusone: They have a choice ... most out of the area of operation

ddavitt: if you are living in a war zone you are indanger

AGplusone: move out

DenvToday: David, it was a war of terror--explicity called so--designed by Lincoln and executed by Grant to starve the civilian population of the South.

ddavitt: Not that easy david

ddavitt: Go where?

AGplusone: terror?

DenvToday: Yes, terror.

Major oz: Marshall whatsisname used that strategy, David, to deny food to Napoleon

AGplusone: Take your choice ...

ddavitt: seas were blockaded weren't they?

Dehede011: My family fought for the north but lived in kentucky. It was wise to move to Indiana or Illinois for the duration.

AGplusone: wiser to move to California

AGplusone: what the Earps did

Dehede011: Is it David?

Dehede011: or rather "Was it?"

Major oz: When you go to war, you do so to win, HST notwithstanding.

DenvToday: ddaavitt, yes they were. All the major southern ports were blockaded.

AGplusone: If you stay and support your troops by growing them crops, you're going to see your farm burnt

ddavitt: OK, to go back to BP, notice how logically they argued that earth would give in; just before their ships were lost and the invasion forces moved in.

Dehede011: Sheridan said that a rabbit to cross the Shennandoah Valley was going to have to carry his rations.

AGplusone: What do you think Tarryton was doing in the South during the revolution

DenvToday: David, troops were not involved. It was designed as warfare against the civilian population--specifically designed to starve them into submission.

Major oz: Well, Jane, that is normal -- to keep the populace up.

Major oz: Even when you know otherwise.

Oakman 7111: NEHEMIAH means "consolodation" in Hebrew.

ddavitt: They nearly lost right there...but it turned into a Vietnam, a good decade or two before that happened in rl

AGplusone: What do you think Rogers Rangers did in the Indian wars? Custer against Black Kettle?

Gaeltachta: Yes Jane.... they got that wrong....... and also the "draft" question was just a guess as well.

Dehede011: or Whoever it was against Black Hawk.

AGplusone: Sure ...

ddavitt: Very satirical part that...

Major oz: ?

Major oz: how so, Jane?

AGplusone: When they killed all the captured Comanche horses, that ended the Comanche wars, didnt' it?

ddavitt: "arice farmer has one logic; men who live by and for power have another'

AGplusone: Quanah Parker went to a reservation

ddavitt: eath HAD to punish Venus, illogical or not

Dehede011: And at wounded knee attacked the women and children to make the braves stand and fight.

ddavitt: They were challenging authority

Major oz: not nice to do that

AGplusone: .... eh .... laws prohibit attacking women and children directly

ddavitt: The sergeant who was spouting off was 1005 correct...and totoally wrong

Major oz: ?

AGplusone: But what do you think that Bell did in the Phillipines?

ddavitt: 100%

AGplusone: And the British did in the Boer Wars?

Major oz: hokay

ddavitt: It's all a question of perspective

AGplusone: Destroyed the farms.

Major oz: "Let he who is without sin cast..........." ad naseum...........

DenvToday: Yes, the British gave the world that lovely institution known as the concentration camp.

ddavitt: Did we?

Major oz: .....and Cain slew

Major oz: Abel

Dehede011: Want to hear the good news?

AGplusone: choice was, I suppose, let them hide in the veldt

Oakman 7111: yes, whats the good news?

Major oz: Mir fell on D.

Major oz: C?

AGplusone: or immigrate to SW Africa and get fed by the Germans

Dehede011: 170 years ago my tribe was massacred and scattered -- today we are back together.

ddavitt: The back of my copy of BP says it's about what happens when 'politics - on an interplanetary scale - disregard the liberty of the individual'

Dehede011: And in the in between years we just disappeared off the face of the earth.

ddavitt: not bad...until they refer to the scientist dragons of a rebellios mars

Major oz: Sperm bank ?

DenvToday: Dehede, what is your tribe?

Dehede011: Chief Bowles band of the Cherokee nation.

ddavitt: Sorry, just catchinh up..it fell where?

Dehede011: Massacred in East Texas for their land circa 1830

Major oz: Everybody south of Illinois is claims to be part Cherokee.

Dehede011: We are by far the largest tribe.

AGplusone: Romans sowed the plains of Zama (Carthage) with salt ... and instead of putting the Carthagians in concentration camps, sold them into slavery

DenvToday: If we had honored our treaties, the various Indian tribes would own a big chunk of this country. But that will never happen.

AGplusone: more humane?

Major oz: But I know the Trail, etc. Is Talking Leaves still in business ?

ddavitt: humans aren't humane David.

ddavitt: not en masse anyway

Major oz: compared to what ?

Dehede011: I have never read it but the writtten language is alive and can be found on the web.

Oakman 7111: David, usually the salvery was to places like the mines - which were deathcamps, weren't they?

AGplusone: Caesar removed the right hands of every man in one tribe that revolted ...

AGplusone: not necessarily

ddavitt: In bible they take the thumb and toe

ddavitt: can't walk or hold a weapon

AGplusone: and their grandsons served in Augustus' legions

Oakman 7111: no toe, no balance

Oakman 7111: if you can't beat em, join em

ddavitt: Yes...but they can still work, just not a threat

AGplusone: and sire sons to serve in the legions, like Iunio

Oakman 7111: I have to go, its been wonderful

Oakman 7111: bye folks

DenvToday: Take care Oak.

Dehede011: Nice talking to you Oak

Gaeltachta: Bye Jon.

Major oz: See ya, Jon

Oakman 7111: bye

AGplusone: Or George Smith Patton

ddavitt: read the list of orders the fedeartion gave the Venerains; sound real; like in WW2 maybe?

Oakman 7111 has left the room.

AGplusone: See ya, John

ddavitt: Nite Jon

Major oz: H cleans it up some, but.....yes, Jane

AGplusone: Like AGO 100, which is what Lincoln imposed on the South

ddavitt: no community of over 1000

ddavitt: no more than 10 people to gather together

ddavitt: no power weapons

AGplusone: under martial law ... and on the Phillipines in 1900

ddavitt: Bit like Sixth column

ddavitt: But that was imparactical; they were dispersing the natives with no one to take over what they were doing

AGplusone: And probably what Kirtchner did in South Africa

ddavitt: Force for the sake of it

AGplusone: spelling?

ddavitt: To make a point

DenvToday: Whis is exactly why it is necessary for the populace to be armed--as a counterbalance to potentially tyrannical government.

AGplusone: No, to crush the rebellion

ddavitt: kitchener; town near me actually

Major oz: no; to stop a counter-0attack

ddavitt: renamed in WW1 from berlin

AGplusone: exactly, both Oz and Denv are right

ddavitt: They had weapons...and just power weapons banned notice; not all weapons

AGplusone: guerrilla war is a very nasty business

ddavitt: Don uses a laser on the snake on the rancj

Major oz: as a hose

AGplusone: once you declare it on your enemy, you leave your civilian population hanging out to dry

Major oz: Interesting comparison

ddavitt: it's a beam wepaon; way of saying it's set in the future i suppose

Major oz: You really ain't worth you salt unless you "spear" it.

AGplusone: Which likely is why RAH really didn't want to write "The Stone Pillow" ...

ddavitt: one of those little details to set the scene

ddavitt: :-)

Dehede011: And a shotgun is a "power" weapon

ddavitt: it wasn't defined. charlie doe well with a cleaver...

Dehede011: As a horse is a "personel carrier"

Major oz: In BTH, were not the beam weapons used like a hole, which gave the point-and-shoot man the advantage. ?

Major oz: HO"S"e

AGplusone: The M-16 is the equivalent of the "long rifles" that took out Johnnie Burgoyne

AGplusone: don't need "long rifles" to hunt deer, muskets do just fine

ddavitt: RP has similar weapons that give out a continuous beam

DenvToday: The M-16 is a piece of (deleted). But that's another discussion. lol

Major oz: what has deer hunting to do with it ??

AGplusone: agree ... try M14 instead

DenvToday: Yep AG. Better yet a WW II Garand modified for a box magazine.

Dehede011: Springfield '03 anyone??

AGplusone: naw, I liked the 14

Major oz: "push-pull, click-click, kill _______that quick" (the '03)

ddavitt: Going back to the book

DenvToday: HK makes some fine weapons. .308

ddavitt: as i have to go soon

Major oz: yes.....

Dehede011: Oz, I packed an 03 all the way through boot camp and never shot one.

AGplusone: But whenever you declare a guerrilla war ... or allow your supporters to engage in one ... you get into "Marching Through Georgia" and all that

ddavitt: notice how the feds don't see the dragons as human

Major oz: they aren't

Major oz: ?????

ddavitt: Which makes them lose; another link to recent past when H was writing?

ddavitt: Human isn't shape Oz

AGplusone: Very little different than colonials ... or "Nips" or "Zipperheads" etc.

geeairmoe2: The feds are the enemy, so they have to be bigots.

ddavitt: they are human

Major oz: Did you mean sentient?

Major oz: no, its DNA

ddavitt: human as opposed to animal

ddavitt: sentient will do

Major oz: sentient as opposed to not-

geeairmoe2: You've got to clearly define the Bad Guys.

ddavitt: they saw them as animals

AGplusone: You always make the enemy something other than human, e.g., Lobsterbacks

AGplusone: eh, Jane?

Major oz: Always

ddavitt: Like the Martians on RP they were not to be harmed..but he feds didn't respect them

Major oz: They were collaborators, not really enemies.

Major oz: They were native to Venus

ddavitt: I wasny the story of cyrus Buchanan

Dehede011: RAH, as did most SF writers, was always much more liberal about race, gender, etc than the general population. How did that get started

AGplusone: Remember the Yellow Jackets in Moon?

ddavitt: does he get mentioned in logic at all?

ddavitt: yes

AGplusone: A rather nasty wasp!

ddavitt: When you're deling with Doc Smith aliem=ns all earth humans lok like brothers1

Gaeltachta: Has anyone yet explained why the working title for BP was "Rolling Stones"..... doesn't make sense?

ddavitt: sorry; baby on knee

ddavitt: prob why it got dropped

Major oz: the baby??????

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: typing gone; baby safe:-)

Gaeltachta: Yes......But why was it there in the first place?

ddavitt: don rols fron place to plce

Gaeltachta: Hmmm....... I dunno......

AGplusone: The nature of real warfare is a very tough subject for a juvenile ... the encased federation ships, rolling on in spheres?

ddavitt: Glad it got saved for another story

Major oz: brb

ddavitt: OK, i have to go bath baby but i

ddavitt: ll keep online,

AGplusone: Recall how bloodthirsty the three boys in Galileo seem when they start shooting the Nazis?

Dehede011: Thanks Jane

ddavitt: I will save up to here; can someone get the rest in case it crashes?

ddavitt: I'll see if you;re all still here when i'm done

BPRAL22169: What has become of David Wright, btw? he usually has an avatar here if he's not here.

DenvToday: Okay ddavit

AGplusone: I think he's exhausted

Dehede011: AG, those sort of scenes show up in all kinds of literature and often seem quite strange later.

Gaeltachta: I'm sure i have read similar endings to BP in other novels/stories......... but can't remember?

AGplusone: I'd have to get a copy of Johnny Tremain one time and read it again

AGplusone: only juvenile I can recall that might have come close

DenvToday: The "men as cannon-fodder" theme was explicit in TEFL. So many died meaningless deaths.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Major oz: Hey, folks......I gotta go...brother on the horn.

Major oz: c ya next time

AGplusone: but TEFL wasn't a juvenile

DenvToday: See you next time Major.

Major oz has left the room.

Dehede011: Yes, that was the reason I didn't join the Army during Korea,

Denv

DenvToday: True David.

AGplusone: I thought the way he handled the 'war' in Red Planet was a bit different. The Martians really did most of the dirty work for them

AGplusone: Except for the one part when they had to break out of the school, and then that was simply a skirmish

Gaeltachta: The novel "Battlefield Earth" I think......... had a similar ending. New-found (magical almost) technology winning the war.

AGplusone: much shorter than most wars ...

AGplusone: like about two hours

Dehede011: Gotta go folks, loved being with you.

Gaeltachta: Bye......

DenvToday: Bye Dehede :-)

Dehede011 has left the room.

AGplusone: night other Ron

geeairmoe2: Did I miss you bragging on your Bruins, David.

AGplusone: yeah ... (75 to 50, Duck is next)

geeairmoe2: I wonder about any team that struggles with Hofstra. Hofstra!

AGplusone: Bill Cosby always said Hofstra was a giant of a team!

AGplusone: [against Temple]

geeairmoe2: Don't mention Temple here in Texas. Longhorn fans are lousy losers.

AGplusone: ...

AGplusone: UCLA has a bad habit lately of planning down to its competition. Wooden taught them to slaughter the weak ... Lavin can't get through to them, or doesn't know it

AGplusone: playing down to its ...

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

geeairmoe2: Our local PBS station just aired a show where Wooden discussed his philosophy. Old fashioned stuff like hard work, committment, etc.

AGplusone: Hi, David

AGplusone: Yes, his pyramid was famous ... you know what the first lesson every year was?

DavidWrightSr: Hi everyone. Sorry I missed it all. I have just gotten back from out of town.

geeairmoe2: How to put on your socks.

AGplusone: How to put on your socks.

DenvToday: Good to see you.

AGplusone: beginning with basics ... read a novel once about training parachutists in the Congo, beginning with: "This is a boot."

DavidWrightSr: Thanks. Can't stay. Someone is keeping the logs I hope. E-mail them as soon as you can and I'll get them out tonight. Don't forget to mention anything I should edit out.

geeairmoe2: Once, when Green Bay was in a slump, Lombardi called a team meeting and said: This is a football.

geeairmoe2: Hornung asked him to slow down.

Gaeltachta: Ok....... gotta go as well. Thanks for the discussion.

AGplusone: We might be pretty well talked out ... anyone?

DenvToday: Take care Gael.

AGplusone: see ya, Sean

SAcademy: Nite, all.

Gaeltachta: Thanks..... Bye

SAcademy has left the room.

Gaeltachta has left the room.

DenvToday: Good night.

geeairmoe2: What's on for next Chat.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry, I didn't mean to run everyone off :-)

AGplusone: Joel Rosenberg

DenvToday: lol David. We were petering out.

AGplusone: I'm enjoyed "Not exactly the Three Musketeers"

DenvToday: I've never read any of his stuff.

geeairmoe2: Reccomended reading.

DavidWrightSr: I'll get a request-to-confirm out to Joel at the end of this week.

DenvToday: I'll remedy that.

AGplusone: Trying to track down old copies of the orginal series. Neither had I.

AGplusone: Picked up five so far ... hope I get through them

DenvToday: David, which one do you recommend if you only have time for one?

AGplusone: He's got a webpage wait a mo ...

DavidWrightSr: I've read one, and have another, but haven't got started on it yet. Been catching up on first 8 issues of THJ.

DenvToday: Oh, good.

AGplusone: Not Exactly The Three Musketeers should be easy to find

DenvToday: I'm rereading Expanded Universe. First time in years. It's like seeing an old friend.

AGplusone: http://www.winternet.com/~joelr/

DenvToday: Thanks. I'll check it out.

AGplusone: Not Exactly Scaramouche is the next in line. It's in hardback

geeairmoe2: Ditto, thanks.

DavidWrightSr: I've also got a copy of 'The Past Through Tomorrow' in German that I have been trying to get started on. (called "Methusaleh's Children" in this version) go figure.

AGplusone: The original four are hard to find ...

DavidWrightSr: See you all later. Looking forward to reading the log when I get it. So long

DenvToday: David, I'll do my best to get some people I know on the e-mailing list.

geeairmoe2: Never read any Rosenberg. Is he "Heinleinesque"? Or a big fan?

AGplusone: Big fan, used to correspond regularly with Ginny and Robert

DavidWrightSr: Please do Denv or was that for the other David?

AGplusone: in ways there are similarities

DenvToday: It was for both of you.

AGplusone: That will help, denv

DavidWrightSr: Ok. See ya

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

DenvToday: Sure thing.

AGplusone: they're almost sword and sorcery novels ...

AGplusone: four or five college types get transferred into an alternate world ... and the series proceeds from there

DenvToday: I host backgammon tournaments on Microsoft's Gaming Zone. It's interesting how many sci-fi fans and quasi-libertarians there are in socialist Europe.

AGplusone: as if Oscar got stuck in the world he visited with Star

geeairmoe2: I'll check out his stuff. Liked "Glory Road".

AGplusone: Rosenberg's not bad, so far as I've read

DenvToday: I haven't heard much from Spider Robinson lately. What's he doing these days?

AGplusone: Ginny said he was finishing up a book that I think came out a few months back

DenvToday: I'll look for it. He'd be a person to contact to speak to us here.

AGplusone: he seems to have given up that newspaper column

AGplusone: Ginny had him committed, more or less, but he said he had problems with using AIM or AOL

ddavitt: I'm back.

DenvToday: I correspond with Neil Smith now and then. He'd be another that would be a natural to speak to us.

AGplusone: he's on an old laptop with about 8 Mb ram

geeairmoe2: I remember when I first got connect to the 'Net, there was a news group, (can't remember which) and there was a thread about Rosenberg where he (or someone claiming to be him) seemed to take insults with good humor.

AGplusone: Ask him ...

AGplusone: and pass the word on to Oz

DenvToday: I will.

AGplusone: that was him, he's visited afh a few times and is a regular on recsf

AGplusone: a few of his essays on his home page are interesting

AGplusone: apparently had a really strange father

ddavitt: I am waiting for Ties of blood and Silver to arrive from a used boks tore

ddavitt: Then i'll have all but the recent one

AGplusone: That's the other series, right, Jane. Not Guardians of the Flame?

ddavitt: Yes

AGplusone: I'm trying to focus on those rather than all of em

AGplusone: And having a hard go getting the first four. I have one and another one lined up

ddavitt: Small links to emile and the Dutchman and the Metazda mercenary ones

ddavitt: we have got them as they came out which is always easiest..if longer to wait

AGplusone: And of course, the last four recent ones up to the hardbound

ddavitt: i like the ones set in dakota and a norse type world

ddavitt: keeper of the hidden ways is the series title

AGplusone: hmmm ... sounds like Norton

ddavitt: That should be around

AGplusone: Does Rosenberg know Anderson?

ddavitt: But my favourites are the two d'Shai ones; detectives in a fnatasy setting

ddavitt: Don't know; we can ask him in 2 weks:-)

AGplusone: He's published a few

ddavitt: Been around a while

AGplusone: 15-20 novels

ddavitt: Still don't know if he's libertarian or not ,g>

ddavitt: Nor do i care....

AGplusone: Yes, well I'll make up my own mind. I never really thought RAH fit a label

AGplusone: Are you going to post a leadoff?

ddavitt: Soory

DenvToday: As RAH kept saying to anybody who would listen, all he ever tried to do was tell a good story.

ddavitt: Will reich is hosting

AGplusone: Oh, good!

ddavitt: He knows joel ; played bridge with him

AGplusone: Be nice to see Feather's dad

ddavitt: Indeed!

AGplusone: That should be fun.

ddavitt: He seems v keen and hopefully we can get him on as a cohost for other chats if he enjoys it

AGplusone: br nice to see his daughter again, too

ddavitt: I will certainly chip in on afh when Will has broken the ice

AGplusone: Anyone heard how Ebon is doing?

ddavitt: No:-(

ddavitt: Merfilly hasn't been around for a long time

geeairmoe2: No

AGplusone: Last I heard from Stephanie Vickers was just after they reported she was better

ddavitt: I will email her

DenvToday: Dave, does SAcademy attend the Thursday night get-togethers?

ddavitt: I am trying to save and the blasted mouse keeps slipping; won't hold the hilighted text

ddavitt: Yes she does

AGplusone: Yes, often bails after about ninety minutes ... time gets late for her

ddavitt: Who else has been here and can try to save?

DenvToday: Okay. I rarely can. I'm simply getting together my sales pitch to get Neil Smith here. lol

ddavitt: I can do it in segments maybe

ddavitt: As i have been here from the start

AGplusone: I can do whatever part I was present. I'll e mail it to you, Jane, and you can patch

ddavitt: bu any back up would be nice

ddavitt: Great; don't want to lose our immortal words:-)

AGplusone: I came about 30 minutes in, after UCLA finished off Utah State

ddavitt: the new web page for the HS is looking good david

AGplusone: Good Jon has everyone look at it?

ddavitt: I sent Bill a report to circulate

ddavitt: Yes; heinleinsociety.org

AGplusone: Did Jon have everyone look it over

AGplusone: Its on heinleinsociety.org now>

ddavitt: We all went quiet and zipped over:-)

AGplusone: ???

ddavitt: We looked and we liked it

AGplusone: that's better. He musta moved it since the last time I looked

ddavitt: Yes he has

AGplusone: we were still in test mode

DenvToday: Well, I'm off to sing "Sweet Rosie O'Grady" off-key with some friends. Good night to one and all.

AGplusone: Has he got the forums back up?

ddavitt: it seems up and running now; very fancy flashing buttons and such

AGplusone: LOL

ddavitt: didn't get chance to look at it all as people were arriving on the chat

DenvToday: Bye all.

ddavitt: bookmarked it obviuosly

AGplusone: good night Ron

ddavitt: Night

ddavitt: well, I will go too

DenvToday has left the room.

geeairmoe2: I'll have to be going, too. I'll don my Tam-o-Shanter and say,

May you be in Heaven a half hour before the Devil knows yer dead.

ddavitt: Can we take it as offically closed?

ddavitt: Night Will

AGplusone: I think so ....

AGplusone: Night Will

ddavitt: Night david

geeairmoe2 has left the room.

ddavitt: Ok I'll try and save

AGplusone: I'm doing the same. As a MS Word doc

AGplusone: I'll send it to you now.

Final End Of Discussion Log

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